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erm this has a knock-on effect insofar as if they've once given up the physical sciences, then it means that they've given up all hopes, when they leave school, of following a, a job or a profession, of courses in further or higher education, in technological, engineering subjects.
and we are moving into an age, i think it must be recognised, where some of the traditional jobs for girls, for example, secretaries, shops, things of this sort, are actually being decreased because of the technological revolution, so bearing in mind that something like seventy per cent of women are actually in employment, it's very important that a girl, at the age of thirteen or fourteen, does not decide to cut herself off from the possibility of employment in these technological, engineering fields.
so one thing that i'm sure we'll want to do is to support the work of the secondary science curriculum review.
this is one of the projects that we've inherited, incidentally run by another member of sussex university, dr. dick west, which is recommending, and it's getting a lot of strong support for this, that all children should have a balanced science education, including the physical sciences, up to the age of sixteen, and so that erm issue of choice will just not arise.
it must be very difficult to be objective so far as the curriculum and level of knowledge of certain subjects are concerned.
i would imagine that almost the easiest subject to start with is something like mathematics.
am i right in thinking you can define more readily whether you know something or don't know something in mathematics?
well, yes, mathematics is a nice, tidy, logical subject, and erm is a subject which erm terrifies a lot of children, and i think here particularly of the situation in primary schools.
about erm eighteen months, two years ago a report was published, the cockroft report, this is the same sir wilfred cockroft who's chairing the examination erm council, which looked into the teaching of mathematics at all level in the country and it was an extremely good report and a lot has followed from it.
one thing that has not been taken up very thoroughly at this stage is the question of teaching of mathematics in primary schools, and this is a field that erm we decided at our last meeting that we must erm look into.
so many children can be put off mathematics at the primary level, and it's important this doesn't happen.
it's also important that erm children at primary level do learn something of calculators and the technology of mathematics.
they see them at home, it's all around them, but the use of calculators for example has not really been built yet widely into the curriculum for primary schools, so that is an area that we shall be having a look at.
and you're not worried that the use of calculators at too early a stage would make a child quite incapable of understanding what addition and multiplication and so forth is 
well of course there, there is this worry, and, and they have to be used erm properly and in a helpful way.
i think erm certainly for a child to rely entirely on a calculator for all mathematical operations would be a disastrous thing.
on the other hand, used aright, it can help very much in the understanding of mathematical operations, because far more many and widespread examples can be dealt with very quickly, and they can for example erm get a feel of the result of multiplying or dividing or whatever it, it is, numbers of quite different sizes.
so i think there is a lot of work to be done there, but as you rightly say, it has to be done carefully and one mustn't get the dependency on calculators which one does see around one.
i've seen this in shops when somebody has to add a twenty p to seventy-three p and out comes the calculator 
yes.
and this is terrible.
what about the skills which are very important but don't come as a formal part of any subject, the so-called communication skills?
are you thinking about those at all?
yes.
i, i'm sorry to keep saying ‘yes’ to everything that you're, you're suggesting, but yes, we are thinking about communication skills, particularly the encouraging and helping children to learn to write properly, i don't mean calligraphy, i mean actually write and express themselves on paper, oral communication, and things of this kind are things that we do want to pay attention to.
i should perhaps explain in the context of your various questions when i say that erm we do want to become involved in these things, that, at this stage, and we've only held two meetings, we have just identified themes and general areas in which we want to work, and not precise projects or activities.
that will be the next stage we shall be working on over the next half-year or so, and what we do want to do is to seek the help of all the local authorities and teachers in this work, because one should perhaps put things into context, we're a committee of twenty-two people, we have a staff, which when they're all fully employed they'll be about fifty, we have a budget of two million, but we have got to communicate with something like four hundred to five hundred thousand teachers, something like erm five thousand secondary schools and twenty-six thousand primary schools.
so it is a major problem, this communication, and so we do have to work with local authorities, with teacher organisations, anyone who can help us in this task.
are you going to set up lots of projects?
well, we shall certainly be setting up some projects, but we would hope to use small-scale projects which are perhaps already underway in different local authorities.
and we have also inherited a number of projects from the schools council.
i've mentioned already the secondary science curriculum review.
erm i won't list them all, but there are one or two interesting ones, for example, there is a project dealing with the relation between education and industry, the schools council industry project, which we wish to support.
this is a project which is to help children at school understand something of industry and of the industrial world in which they're going to work, and also conversely to bring industrialists into involvement with schools themselves and with developing the curriculum.
lastly, roger, your committee, it's a small committee, twenty-two members 
mhm
tackling an immense task.
are you open to suggestions from the educational field as a whole as to what you should do and what's important and so on?
oh, indeed.
i said earlier that we want to involve all aspects of the educational system, and for example we have already written to every local authority in the country, telling them about the general themes that we have identified as important, asking for their comments, for their suggestions of other matters that we should perhaps look into, and also asking for their help and involvement.
so yes, we're very much open to suggestion.
erm we shall have our own ideas, of course, and these are expressed at this stage in terms of these general themes, but we surely will respond when, if there are any suggestions coming.
roger, thank you very much, and good luck in this enormous project you're undertaking.
that's all that we have time for today.
next sunday we shall be looking at another live education issue.
until next week then, good-bye.
hello.
science is thought of as a subject that is difficult both to teach and to learn.
the folklore in school terms is that you have to be a relatively ancient teenager to appreciate physics and chemistry and biology.
is this true?
today i have with me dr mike king, who's made a study of science teaching in schools.
mike, how early can science be taught to children?
well i think that rather depends on saying fairly concisely what it is we mean by science.
if in a sense it means how early can you teach children facts and contents and very straightforward knowledge, then i think the answer is not very early at all because it may be fairly meaningless that you could teach a child to repeat newton's law, perhaps the same way as you could teach him to repeat the eleven times table, but without a good concept of number or what newton meant.
it's probably something they could learn off parrot fashion, but doesn't have any actual meaning for them.
but if you look at science as a way of exploring their world, a world they can structure their curiosity about aspects of the physical world, about aspects of the environment, then i think we can do it very early indeed, probably from the time children can come to school at the age of five and from reception classes onwards.
in fact, we do run a project which looks at the ways science can be taught in the first school, which has been very surprising to me and many of my colleagues by what can actually be done with children in the ages of five to seven.
for most young children in that age group, the world's a magic place and we traditionally like to teach them nature study and flowers and cuddly hamsters and rabbits in school, and that's the nature table syndrome, and that's great and i'm not knocking that at all.
there is so much opportunity for children to look at the nature of the physical world around them which isn't taken advantage of, and which could be, and i think that may have something to do with the attitude of teachers as much as the attitude of children.
but erm they're tremendously curious about the nature of the world around them and they're certainly capable of, if not understanding why, exploring what.
i took my godson, dominic robinson, round my laboratory the other day, which is a physics laboratory, and he enjoyed it immensely and asked a number of questions, and was absolutely intrigued and fascinated by the various bits of wires and plugs and so on like that, and he asked me the sort of questions that i don't think i would expect sometimes my undergraduates to ask.
they were perhaps stemmed from innocence, but they were very searching and very real questions, and he was obviously very excited to ask them and to listen to some of the answers.
do you think we perhaps put kids off an interest in science by our sort of insistence that they have to have a solid understanding of newton's laws and all sorts of principles, and we lose the magic too early?
yes, i'm sure we do, and i think that's to do with our notions of what science is.
there's a mystique which has built up about it.
anybody who's worked in graduate or postgraduate level in science likes almost to continue that mystique.
yes, we do put children off by being rigid because a child, i am sure, doesn't see the world in a rigid way.
what's out there is all out there.
bits of his universe are to do with art and colour and drawing.
i mean if you watch a child, and i have a seven year old boy, playing stacking cards or dominoes is the current thing in our house, watching them stack them and then knocking them off and watching them fall and the way they fall, the amount of work which is involved there in structures and forces and the nature of gravity and the way things behave under gravity fascinate them.
the problem, of course, is most of us couldn't give a sensible reply to the very searching questions they ask, so we tend to say something like ‘that's a fascinating questions, but you'll have to wait till you're older and ask a scientist’.
that's not the children's mistake, that's ours, because we couldn't actually for the best part respond in a meaningful way.
and in another sense what we don't do often is to actually recognize the significance of the child's question because of the language he puts it in.
he asks something which, you know, i mean the way they do, what is life, and you wouldn't know — unless you're perhaps trained or awake to the significance of what the child is actually asking — you wouldn't know how to respond to that, so you tend to put it off.
you mentioned that schools are quite good at biology, that they have guinea pigs and they have growing plants and so forth, and i think you hinted at the fact that they perhaps are not quite so good at maybe the harder sciences, we might call them, of physics and chemistry.
is that the case and, if so, what can we do about it at an early stage?
i believe that is the case, and i believe that again is a reflection of us as adults erm and not an indictment of teachers.
they show great pedagogic skills in almost every aspect of school life.
most of us, as people who live in this world, are interested in our environment, and even if not young we certainly grow to appreciate it and to learn a bit about flowers and the way animals live and work in our garden and watching david attenborough on television and erm we have a genuine interest because as part of this world we know it and come to understand it, and probably feel, therefore, if even if you're not a biology specialist, which you certainly don't have to be by any means, when a child asks a question about, you know, ‘where do the flies go in winter?’ and ‘why's the hamster gone to sleep for three months?’we feel more capable of answering it because we're closer to it ourselves and those are the sorts of questions that people told us.
when a child asks a question about something dropping from a height — does it get faster and it falls for longer and longer?— that probably is a question that most teachers who are not trained in the physical sciences just cannot answer.
what can we do about it?
i think at the end it must come down to two things; one basically a change in attitude — we have to come to recognise that we live in a very, very technological society, that most of us were born before man walked on the moon, but the kids in school were born in an age when man had walked on the moon ten years ago and they live in a world which is very scientific, and we have to recognise that — and the other one is practical sense, i think, where we really have to look seriously to in-service training of teachers, a) and b) we have to look carefully at the way we train teachers now.
in many institutions which train primary and first school teachers, the teachers themselves have an option as to whether they can do a science course or not and then even if they do it it's usually very biologically biased erm towards the natural sciences.
at sussex we actually make a third of the time they spend on the university component of their courses compulsory work in science — that is to say every student does it — so we can actually do something about it practically by looking at our processes of initial training and coming to realise what an important section of the world this is and training teachers accordingly, and not to leave it at that but to continue with erm progressive and planned in-service training of teachers.
our own experience from several of the projects that we've been looking at which are in-service type projects, is that when we do train teachers and when we do put an investment in it, we see the pay-off in the schools that physical science does get done in schools, it is fun and it is exciting.
it's when the teachers think this is a boring, mundane, difficult thing to do, then that tends to be put over to the children and of course the disaster is that the children will believe it, and it if the children will believe it then we grow up in a highly technological society producing very few technologists or scientists.
what you describe does sound a little bit like a chicken and egg situation from the point of view that i think you were saying that erm many teachers are ill-equipped, actually, to teach erm physics, perhaps, and chemistry, whereas they are a little bit better able to get across fundamental ideas in biology, and in a sense because of this they are going to produce another generation who perhaps have very ill-founded ideas of these basic sciences and so on and so forth, and somehow one's got to cut into this cycle and actually improve it, improve the output somehow.
yes, the chicken and egg syndrome is interesting because and i agree it is a viscious circle, but in fact you don't make new omelettes unless you do break some eggs, and i think the time has come to break some eggs and i think that's what i'm advocating is that it will come from the teacher because the teacher is the guiding light of what happens in the classroom, and if the teacher has it in the back of their mind there will be no science, then there will be no science.
if, on the other hand, the teacher has it in the back of their mind always to be aware of the possibility of bringing into the work that's going on in the classroom and bringing all they're usually very excellent pedagogic skills to bear on it, aspects of the physical sciences, so that the children can get an early and meaningful introduction to it, then it will happen.
the question is how do you break into the cycle and make that happen, and i think the answer is, as i said, in two ways — one by making teachers more aware during their period of initial training, either at college or at university or polytechnic, and secondly by looking very carefully at the amount and type of in-service training erm that goes on for teachers once they've left college and are in the schools.
essentially what you're saying is that a teacher who's actually teaching you ought to be able to say to that teacher ‘look, here's a package, if you like, that you can insert into your range of skills, and these are of things that you can do with children which are worthwhile doing and fairly easily for you to acquire skills yourself, and they will be very good and helpful for the children’.
well i'd only say that initially erm because then what you end up with is a sort of lucky dip which every now and then somebody will remember the bag of science tricks that somebody's taught them and dip into.
now i think that's better than nothing, but i think one has to take it a stage further than that and say that erm the concepts and the processes in science do build logically one upon the other, in a coherent and meaningful way, and that's important for teachers to appreciate what that meaningful sequence is and that, you know, the lucky dip idea is, as i have said, better than nothing, but it's so much inferior to the notion that teachers should be aware that there is a progression in science and that they can teach children progressively from a very early age onwards and build meaningful knowledge upon meaningful knowledge.
is there anything that parents can do?
christmas is coming up and there are chemistry sets in the shops.
do these make good gifts from a scientific point of view?
well they're a lot of fun and kids love them.
as i commented a little earlier to somebody, i still haven't quite forgiven my mother-in-law for the chemistry set she bought my seven-year-old.
he is absolutely amazed by it and spends lots of time in a garage at the back, which actually means that i spend an awful lot of time in that garage in the cold too!
yes, they are good sets and they do they are exciting for children.
they do enjoy them and they do make good use of them.
quite often they need a lot of erm time spent by the parent with the child, and if the parent's happy with that they're fine.
none of them, or very few of them, if you buy a good quality one is dangerous.
it's very important, i think, that erm you match the age of the child to the age which is written on the box, because then the child will actually be handling materials that he can physically handle and ideas that he can physically cope with or intellectually cope with.
so they are probably very useful erm toys, educational toys, to have in the home, but i think for the child to get the maximum from them they do he often does require an adult with him.
how about electronic kits and circuits?
are they worthwhile, would you say?
yes, they are; they are very much.
again, it's a questin of matching the kit to the age of the child because some of them erm — the one we have at home, for example, plugs into the mains and although it only pushes out six or nine volts at the end the child actually does have to plug it in and, well i don't think i'd be happy if my six or seven year old was doing that, although my nine year old could cope with it quite happily.
so they are useful erm children can learn a lot.
what i like about them and where i think their strengths are is that they do put science, the physical sciences, in that bracket of activity which is fun, excitement and leisure and enjoyment and that it moves away from the notion that it's something you do on a wet friday afternoon at school.
thank you very much, mike.
that's all that we have time for today.
next week i shall be talking to peter abbs about teaching the arts and he will be reading some very interesting children's poetry.
until next week then, goodbye.
dr brian smith from the university sussex.
now the brighton polytechnic and mary donoghue.
hello.
dyslexia is a common learning difficulty, but one that's hard to define and sometimes very hard to cope with.
for the next three weeks on ideas in action we'll discuss some practical ways that parents and teachers can help dyslexic children.
today we'll hear from polytechnic lecturer reg james, who's just made a film of the special needs brickwall school, and from local remedial tutor dave pollock, who'll give us some suggestions for teacing dyslexic children.
reg, let's start with the most obvious question first.
what is dyslexia?
well it's something that's very difficult to define in a way i think that's satisfactory.
what has been taken as kind of definition, which i'll paraphrase i think for this purpose, is that it's a condition that shows itself in children's reading difficulty and erm that they are having this reading difficulty despite the fact that they have had reasonable, normal teaching, that their level of intelligence appears to be normal and that they come from an adequate social cultural background.
over and above that we think in a sense that it's a series of disabilities, of intellectual functioning, and although it's not by any means proven, we think that these are probably constitutional in origin.
dave, would you agree with that definition?
yes, if i could just extend it a little.
i feel that it shows itself in the contrast between the child's — we're talking about children for the moment, although obviously there are dyslexic adults — it shows itself in the contrast between the person's ability to express him or herself in words and their ability to put it down on paper and to read it off paper, and it's this contrast which often arouses one's suspicions that there might be some problem and, having gone into it a little, we find that it stems from a failure of the sensory motor system — the brain isn't processing the information it's receiving through the ear and eye.
how would you both respond to a common allegation that dyslexia is a middle class disease?
i think that's a very unfair kind of criticism.
i've not had the experience perhaps of teaching so many dyslexic children to be able to comment on this, but certainly when i was making the videotape at brickwall school and i asked the headmaster about that and he pointed to the fact that they certainly have a very wide intake, a complete social mix, and professor miles at bangor university says that in his experience of dealing with dyslexic children they come from all walks of life, and it's really quite inaccurate — i suppose there's a sense in which, if we've got to use these phrases, that middle class people have always been very concerned about the education of their children and so they may be the parents who will ask questions about their children's lack of development, but i think it's only, you know, more significant in middle class terms because of that.
dave, what's your response?
yes, i agree absolutely with reg there.
i've come across, and still regularly do come across, people of all ages, both sexes and all social classes, who have this kind of problem.
given general definitional problems with dyslexia and learning difficulties generally, what practical suggestions can you offer to teachers of children with learning difficulties?
reg.
the most essential thing, in a sense, is to give teachers enough information about this condition and the kind of difficulties it creates so that they can recognise it.
i don't know whether david would agree, but my experience as a teacher was that i certainly encountered, i realize now, in my teaching career, children with dyslexia and yet no-one had told me, in my training, anything about this condition and i don't think i was in a position until later, in a sense, to recognise that i had seen children with this difficulty.
so that i feel that one of the things that we must do is ensure that all people who are now training to be teachers, and those who already in the service, have got to be given more information about the condition so that they may be able to recognise it.
dave, you did a p g c e course at sussex.
did you feel that students there were receiving adequate information about dyslexia?
no, i'm afraid i didn't.
the p g c is a difficult course to fill, really, for the people who are organising it, because although it's called a one-year course, in fact it lasts eight months in practice, and there are so many aspects that have to be fitted in something has to go.
it's difficult enough, i think, to fit enough work on ordinary reading, if you like, let alone specific problems.
i went into dyslexia because when i did that course we had the opportunity to do a special study of a subject of our own choice and i spent a lot of time on dyslexia because i was already interested in it before i started.
but suppose now suppose i were a middle-aged to elderly teacher who had never come across dyslexia until recently and was now aware that he or she had dyslexic pupils, the first thing to do, i think, is to inform yourself.
there are courses that one can do, extra post-experience courses once can follow.
the dyslexia institute is a mine of information.
local dyslexia associations are also full of information, and there are by now quite a lot of books which have been published which are — both for parents and teachers — which are veyr easy to follow and don't necessarily involve one in many evenings and weekends of cudgelling the brain.
now suppose you've got a dyslexic child in your class, or one that you think may be — i can suggest various don'ts.
the first don't is not to believe that the child is lazy because he or she is not managing to spell.
very often, as we've mentioned already in this programme, there's contrast between alertness, brightness, whatever you call it, with words in speech and the disability in writing it down.
so because there's this contrast the child isn't necessarily playing up or not bothering.
also the dyslexic child is not necessarily unintelligent because he can't write something which you've just written on the blackboard or which has only just been shown to him in some other way; the dyslexic person can't look up at a blackboard, hold the visual symbols in her mind and get them down on paper in a different position.
if the nature of dyslexia is borne in mind by the teacher, then the child's confidence won't necessarily be undermined.
so many dyslexic children have been reduced to a state of dreadful anxiety by teachers who've called them stupid in front of the other children.
could i just take you back, david, on the point where you're talking about the things that the teacher might recognise.
it seems to me that another problem, as far as the teacher is concerned, is the inconsistency in the dyslexic child's performance.
the fact that the teacher finds that the child has spelt a word correctly in one context and then perhaps in a sentence or two later may misspell the word, makes the teacher think that this is a question of carelessness, where we know, in fact, that is a feature of dylexia — that you may be able to get a spelling correct in one context and yet you will misspell it, as it were, a few moments later.
yes, right, i think maybe this is the moment where we could list some of the signs of dyslexia, both for parents and teachers, and indeed i hope there may be some educational psychologists who have some doubts who might like to enter into some erm dialogue with us.
now i would like to isolate six possible areas of difficulty where dyslexic people will indicate signs of having a problem.
the first one is visual and auditory discrimination — now there's lovely bits of jargon for you — that means the ability to differentiate between symbols when they're written and to differentiate between different sounds, particularly highly frequency sounds.
then there's the question of the association of sounds and symbols; now the average person, when learning to read, can be shown a letter, told the letter most commonly makes this sound, whatever it may be, and associate the two very quickly.
the dyslexic person has great difficulty with this.
then we come to the problem of sequencing which, one again, can be visual and auditory and connected with the hearing.
in order to spell, one has to combine both kinds of sequence, one has to think of the syllables in the word in the correct order and remember them and remember how far you got, and also remember the sequence of visual symbols, i.e. letters on paper.
sequencing is very often a the root of the dyslexic problem, not only in writing and reading, but also in remembering other kinds of sequence, like time sequence, which brings us to the next point.
erm sequences such as what happened yesterday, what happened today, what's going to happen tomorrow — dyslexic people very often have great difficulty with this and transferring from the two dimensional to the three dimensional, like you might say to a dyslexic adult when he or she asks directions, ‘oh, well, it's first right, second left and then there's a tower on your right and you've got to turn to the left after the tree’ and so on, and a dyslexic person can't remember any of that at all , or transfer it from the map to the reality.
last of all, we must mention orientation.
when we write we scan across and move our hands from left to right.
when we read we scan a line of print from left to right.
this doesn't come automatically to a dyslexic person very often, and we also look at letters from left to right, but if you look at a u and then turn it upside down in your mind, you have an n, or h and y can be reversed to turn into each other, if you like, in the same way.
b and d is a problem which a lot of dyslexic children have.
teachers should be aware, particularly of that aspect, i think, because phonic method is very often used in schools, by which i mean that the teacher wil hold up a flash card, and on it would be a pair of letters, say, suppose for example sh the teacher will hold up a large card with sh on it and will say to the class ‘this is shuss’ and the children will all say shuss whenever this card is held up — that's fine, but the dyslexic pupil may not be seeing sh in the same way that the other children are.
they may be seeing hs, or backwards s backwards h, or backwards h backwards s — the permutations are, in fact, considerable the more you think about it, and once again i'd like to repeat that the teacher should be aware of the possibility that not all the class are actually seeing what she thinks they might be seeing.
reg, can you add to any practical teaching suggestions?
one point i'd just like to add to what david was just saying there was that when you were talking about those orientation problems, when we were making the film of the children at brickwall, what was brought home to me very strongly was that these sort of problems can arise in mathematics, as well as in reading.
if you think about the problems that there are with mathematics, whereby it's not just a question of scanning print from left to right, but that you were involved in processes where sometimes you're moving from left to right and sometimes from right to left, sometimes vertically.
dyslexic children can have difficulties as far as of mathematics as well as reading.
what changes in the teacher training curriculum would you both like to see in order to improve teacher recognition of learning difficulties?
the first thing to do is to have a major component of the reading section to include dyslexia, with erm instruction of trainee teachers, not only in how to recognise the problem, but also how to do something about it, and how to use the education system to bring support for parents and pupils.
yes, i think that as david said one of the things that we've been working at very hard in recent years in teacher training is to try to improve the quality and the content of reading courses generally, and then i think it is also necessary to draw attention to teachers of this problem of dyslexia.
i favour the notion that it often should be more detailed work on dyslexia as probably can be done in the postexperience courses.
i think that teachers need to know people that they can turn to for further advice, but that they could familiarize themselves much more with what, as it were, they can do in the first instance by screening children, by using there are number of published materials, learning inventories, that can be used to discover whether a child has some difficulties that might point in this direction of dyslexia.
for example, aston university have published some very helpful materials to help teachers in the classroom identify these difficulties.
now i've used that as an illustration because i think these are some of the best materials that have been produced in this country, but there are other learning inventories and tests which can be used to help teachers find out whether they think that children have got these dyslexic difficulties.
could i just add something also there, that training of teachers, after they've done their initial training is becoming increasingly cut, of course, by the government.
it is all very well for us to sit here and tell teachers to go on extra courses, but they're finding that there aren't any left, so the next thing that they can turn to the next person they can turn to is the educational psychologist.
there is one for every school, of course, and this psychologist should have had more training in perceptual handicaps than an ordinary classroom teacher, and should be available to help assess the child and give advice to teachers and parents about how to help them.
many thanks to reg james and dave pollock.
next week on ideas in action we'll discuss some of the options open to the parents of dyslexic children.
until then, goodbye.
hello.
in this last programme in our short series on the boundaries of science, we're going to look at one aspect of that most baffling and intriguing subject, the origin of life.
harry kroto is a chemist at the university, who a few years ago, in collaboration with a colleague and a student, discovered something about interstellar space that has forced scientists to reconsider their views.
harry, what did you discover?
well we discovered that there were some compounds in interstellar space that we were really rather more complicated than had previously been thought possible, and these molecules had infeasible prebiotic species, in that there were very simple reactions that could take place that would allow them to form amino acids and other rather intriguing biological molecules.
presumably one thought that, in the early days in the universe as it were, the atoms and molecules that existed were very simple ones?
yes, i think that is true.
i mean the view that astronomers and most scientists and people who are interested in astronomy had was that there might be a few molecules in space, probably not very many, but if there were they would be very, very simple, probably one or two atoms, perhaps things like water, perhaps things like ammonia, and things like methane — molecules with a large amount of hydrogen attached to them and in fact a thermodynamically staple species.
now what has happened in the last decade or so, through the advent of radioastronomy, is that we've discovered that there are vast clouds of molecules between the stars and they're just chock a block with very intriguing molecules, many of which are just the sort of things we would expect to be in the prebiotic soup.
what do you mean by prebiotic?
prebiotic means erm a system whereby biological processes have not actually started, but would contain many of the basic building blocks for a biological system.
why is it that these molecules weren't discovered earlier?
well the major advance that was made in the late sixties and early seventies was in radioastronomy, where large radio telescopes with computer control and very high sensitivity were developed.
one reason was for communications, but another reason that was rather intriguing to scientists was that they could actually look at stars and look at the space between the stars and use a different region of the spectrum, in particular the radio region.
previously one's knowledge of stars comes from the light that comes in in the optical range and the visible range, or in perhaps the ultra violet if you can put a satellite above the atmosphere.
perhaps you can use infra-red dectors, but the radio telescope allowed astronomers to look in the radio range.
it turned out that radio astronomy of this kind looked at extremely low temperature regions.
one looks at a star, one sees radiation from an object which may have a surface temperature of many thousands of degrees — in fact, internal temperatures of millions of degrees, but with a radio telescope one's looking at very, very cold regions and these were totally inaccessible before the advent of radio astronomy, or of this type anyway, and for the first time one was able to see material spread between the stars rather thinly, but in fact in a very cold state.
what sort of molecules have you been discovering?
well the original discoveries were of some fairly simple molecules.
people thought well what could be in space, they'd tune the radio telescope and they found, rather intriguingly, there were molecules like water and ammonia and methane, just as they expected.
then, as they looked a little bit further and were a bit more adventurous, they found that there were some more interesting molecules such as alcohol.
i mean molecules that are rather larger, molecules that actually are rather important in biological systems.
but these were fairly understandable.
but as time went on and techniques advanced, they found that peculiar sorts of molecules turned up, rather unusual ones, things that weren't expected — molecules that are very uncommon on the earth and in fact a number of molecules were discovered in interstellar space before they were discovered in the laboratory.
this showed that the conditions in space were unusual and that unusual chemical processes were taking place, and they were then producing molecules that we didn't expect.
in fact, the chemistry on the earth is rather special — it's the sort of chemistry we're used to doing at the temperature on the earth in the conditions that occur on the earth, but interspatial space the conditions are quite different and so, in fact, it turns out the chemistry is different, and so also we find that there are molecules that we don't expect.
one thing that we did was find that there were molecules much, much bigger than was expected in the sense that there were many, many more carbon atoms involved than had previously been thought possible, and even now we just do not understand the processes whereby they are formed.
are you saying that there are molecules out there in space which we just cannot form ourselves in a laboratory?
there are molecules in space that we would have great difficulty making in the laboratory.
i think we could do it now that we know something more about space.
yes, we could probably make them, but they would be rather difficult.
for one reason, space is almost a vacuum, so that molecules erm are few and far between, and one thing about chemistry it is really the science of not particularly molecules but molecules that react with one another, but here once one has got a molecule in space it doesn't actually meet another one for a very long time, so even a molecule that is reactive and which may only last for maybe a microsecond in the laboratory, interstellar space it may last for a thousand years.
so we find that there's an intriguing chemistry going on in space that it would be very difficult for us to reproduce in the laboratory.
but i think the ingenuity of chemists and scientists and physicists and astronomers is such that, yes, we could do it — if we knew what we were looking for and had the right ideas.
what we're finding is that the discoveries in interstellar space are making us try new experiments and erm try and reproduce these conditions, perhaps in the laboratory, and then go on to discover new molecules in space and understand the processes that give rise to the molecules.
how did people think that prebiotic organic compounds were formed before this discovery in outer space?
some rather nice experiments were carried out, perhaps in the forties and fifties, by uray and miller, who thought that the early atmosphere mainly contained methane, water and ammonia, mainly hydrogenated species which were thermodynamically stable, and they thought that perhaps if one put a discharge or if volcanic processes could actually inject energy into such a system and form the more complicated and more energetic molecules required for biology to actually get started.
now this is a good idea, and in fact there's a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that geologists and astronomers who know something about the earth's atmosphere have looked into to suggest that this is quite a feasible mechanism for the formation of prebiotic molecules.
now the curious thing was that if you looked at the early atmosphere, the molecules in that were the molecules that we expected to see in interstellar space.
after the violent conditions that erm we think occurred in the early life of the earth and injected energy and churned up the atmosphere and formed the prebiotic molecules, we find that just those same molecules are actually in the clouds in space, and these clouds are the basic raw material from which stars and plants form in the first place, so we might ask the question could they have got into the earth's atmosphere without this intermediate process, and i think there are mechanisms whereby these molecules can accrete into the earth's atmosphere, and it certainly suggests that we should look at thse and certainly not be taken as a foregone conclusion that the uray/miller experiments are the only mechanism whereby the prebiotic soup was formed.
you say that you found interstellar space being pretty cold, there are some variations of temperature within it, aren't there?
well temperature, of course, is a very complicated thing, but let's assume we do understand what temperature means.
there are regions of space, and for the most part in these dense clouds between the stars, that have temperatures perhaps ten degrees above absolute zero, maybe as much as fifty degrees above absolute zero, so that's about minus two hundred and fifty degrees centigrade.
but what happens in these clouds is that certain parts of them, certain areas of the cloud start to collapse, and as they collapse the temperature rises and the collapse increases, and as the temperature rises through a thousand to a million degrees we find that these are the regions where stars form, and it is really the major discovery, as far as astronomy is concerned, of the radio research that we now know a lot more about the early stages of star formation.
and as we believe that erm the earth and the sun were formed at the same time, so we're starting to know a lot more about the original material from which the sun and the earth were formed, and here we find that it's just full of prebiotic molecules which we did not know beforehand and therefore puts a different perspective on what we think the earth's early atmosphere might have been.
how was the astronomy actually done?
well i had a colleague in canada who's a very close friend of mind, and erm i knew that he had actually done some radio astronomy.
he was a chemist himself, or a physicist, working on similar sorts of problems, and i wrote to him and said was he interested in looking at one of my molecules, and he wrote back and said he was very interested because it was, in fact, as i'd thought, a rather intriguing next step in our understanding and we got together with the canadian group in ottowa to try and set up a programme for observing these particular types of molecule in interstellar space.
it was, in fact, at the time just erm well let's try it and see.
i didn't have very much hope because it was really much more complicated than any other molecule that had been discovered.
it was almost a quantum leap in some ways.
and to our great surprise this molecule was, in fact, quite abundant.
then the next step was very clear — that we should make the next molecule, which was rather more complicated, and look for that.
to our disbelief it was really very much more abundant than we could ever have thought possible, so we've actually been able to find molecules with eleven carbon atoms in a chain, floating around in space, and for which we really at the present time have no explanation.
and astronomers would never have looked in that area, in that region, perhaps radio astronomy, unless you'd asked them to?
well i certainly wouldn't have thought about it, and i don't think any chemist would have believed it, and in fact what happened was it really came from this other esoteric sort of project that we were doing.
had i wanted to do something in astronomy, which i did actually want to do because i'd taken an interest in it, in fact i would not have thought of this type of molecule.
it was just not even in question.
it was just ‘oh well, this might be interesting.
it is a bit unlikely, but let's try it.’
then it turned out to be rather unusually abundant and erm we now have the problem of trying to understand why it's there in the first place.
one interesting feature of this discovery seems to me that it's been a combination of different individuals approaching it almost laterally, in a sense, because you're not an astronomer, particularly, are you?
no, i'm not even an astronomer now really in many ways.
i mean i've never looked through a telescope.
i mean i have helped to run a radio telescope.
we don't actually look at that — a radio telescope is a rather superb radio set with a rather large ariel.
and all this started with you actually putting an undergraduate student on the project?
yes, one of the nice aspects of astronomy is that it brings people from many different areas of science together.
what actually happened was that a colleague of mine, dave walton and i, got together to look at a rather esoteric aspect of molecular motion, thinking of making molecules which were very, very long and had very simple structure but could have perhaps erm very complicated what we call dynamic motion, but there was some very good chemistry involved and we erm put this project together for the sussex chemistry bithesis programme, and erm the student who took on this particular project, alexander, spent two years learning how to do the synthesis and developed a lot of ability in this area; he also learned how to do the spectroscopic experiments and studied the analysis of molecular motion, and he was able to do this on top of the course work that he did, and in fact this particular project and alexander, who did the work himself, and the subsequent exciting sort of repercussions of the project have all made me a rather firm believer in the course here, and that in fact undergraduates can do research and also that it's a very good training for the future.
thank you very much, harry.
hello.
in this short series we're exploring some of the boundaries of science — the limits to what we can measure or experience, limits that exist in space, time, temperature and so on.
last week, for example we were looking at the mind boggling distances that we encounter when we journey across the universe.
today we travel to the other extreme and enter the microscopic world of the atom and its nucleus.
jim byrne is a physicist who work as the university.
i recently asked him how large an atom is.
well, of course, there are big atoms and small atoms hydrogen is a very small atom, uranium is a big atom — but something of the order of ten to the minus eight of a centimetre.
roughly a hundred million atoms per centimetre.
so that means if you could line up a hundred million atoms you'd just reach one centimetre?
just about one centimetre for relatively small atoms, yes.
and virtually all matter is composed of atoms?
all matter that we know is composed of atoms.
the familiar matter that we deal with in our ordinary life, that's jsut atoms, yes.
and putting combinations of atoms together you get molecules and up to really rather long and complicated molecules?
that's so, indeed.
that's going in one direction of building up.
mhm
and going in the other direction, what do you have inside atoms?
are atoms solid things, or are they all space or what?
no, atoms are not solid things.
this is the great discovery that rutherford and his erm collaborators made forty/fifty years ago.
in fact atoms are almost entirely made up of free space.
essentially, what you have inside an atom is you have a very small mass of core, called the nucleus, and around this nucleus you have lighter particles called electrons, which orbit in closed orbits.
now this is the picture that we have.
these are negative particles and the nucleus is made up of positively charged and neutral particles and the combination is kept together by electrostatic forces.
so the nucleus itself is not solid.
it itself consists of particles?
well of course it's rather more solid than the atom is.
i mean if you think that an atom is, as we said, typically ten to the minus eight of a centimetre, then a nucleus is typically ten to the minus twelve of a centimetre, so that's four orders of magnitude down, so the nucleus itself, if you scaled the whole thing down by a factor of ten to the four, the neucleus itself again is made up of a fair amount of free space and loss of particles inside it.
if you've got a positive nucleus and you've got electrons, negative particles going round it, and the two attract each other, why don't they just all collapse together?
well of course this was the great argument that went on.
i mean when rutherford did his experiments years and years ago he produced his planetary model of the nucleus, of the atom where the nucleus plays the role of the sun and the electrons play the role of the planets, and people said well why don't they just spiral in an erm rutherford had actually no answer to this, but the answer to this was produced by the danish physicist nils bore, who said ‘well they don't spiral in because erm electrons cannot just take up any orbit, they can take up certain specified orbits which he called stationary states, and there is a lowest one of these, and when the electron gets down there it cannot go any further.
well, i'm sure that's the right answer, but we're already getting a little bit complicated in our vision of what's happening.
let's go inside the nucleus a little bit.
the nucleus isn't solid, it consists of other particles — what sort of particles are these?
well, erm the nucleus is not solid, but the particles in it are much more massive than electrons.
if you look at the particles inside the nucleus you have a proton, which is a positively charged particle, and it's about two thousand times more massive than an electron, and you have also have another type of particle in there called a neutron, and a neutron is to all practical intents and purposes it's just like a proton except that it has no charge, and so the whole mass of the atom is actually concentrated inside the nucleus.
the electrons balance the forces of course, but they don't really contribute to the mass.
so what we have inside the nucleus, we have two kinds of particle, the neutron, which is uncharged, and the proton which is positively charged.
and you get smaller particles out of the neutrons and protons?
well, you can get hosts of smaller particles if you do various things.
i mean you're getting into quite deep water here.
let's go back a little bit.
i mean if you ask what happens when electrons drop down from one orbit to another inside the atom, the emit light, which is the thing we are familiar with, but erm physicists tend to think of this as particles which they call photons.
now, we you have neutrons and protons, they interact one with the other, but the particle that carries the interaction is not the photon, it's the new particle called the meson, and you have got smaller particles, much less massive particles than neutrons and protons, and these are called mesons or pye mesons, and the pye meson has erm a mass which is typically a tenth of that of a proton.
so if you collide neutrons and protons, bang them one off the other, you can produce these mesons.
how do you know these particles actually exist?
well i mean how do you know that, for example, light exists?
i mean if you put your hand up to the sun you can feel it, you detect it, your eyes detect it, well you have detectors which detect them and, for example, if i want to detect something like an electron well then i can make a counter which is sensitive to charged particles like electrons, and i can allow these electrons to hit this counter and it will produce erm an identifiable electrical pulse and i can look at that and i can say this is an electron, or i can look at other particles, say, for things like helium nuclei which are called alpha particles, and i can make counters which will detect these and i can put a little piece of paper in front and i can stop off the alpha particles.
we know they exist because we can do things with them.
we can actually see practical effects which follow from usin them.
you can't see a proton because proton is too small erm the only things that you can see are microscopic bodies and again you only infer the existence of these microscopic bodies because you actually detect the light that comes from them.
somehow or other your miond analyzes the light that it receives from these bodies and tells you about them.
in a sense you can do the same thing, of course, with erm elementary particles like neutrons and protons, but the process of interpretation is much more complicated.
continuing our journey to ever smaller particles, can we break up the pye meson into anything smaller?
well you don't actually have to do that with the pye meson because if it erm if you have a pye meson it just breaks up itself.
if erm, for example, i were to produce a beam of pye mesons, which i can do by taking very high energy protons and making them collide with ordinary hydrogen, then the pyon will come out and it will not live for very long, and i think the lifetime of a pyon is something of the order of ten to the minus eight of a second, which means that pyons only live for about one hundred millionth of a second, and these things then decay into othe particles and these other particles are called muons and they decay into not only do they produce muons, but they produce things called neutrinos and the muons themselves do not live for very long — a muon lives for about two microseconds, which is two millionths of a second — and it decays also into an electron and another neutral particle called a neutrionor, and these neutrinors just are there, they exist very but they are the end products of these decay processes.
you mentioned, very straightforwardly, experiments to find these particles — in fact aren't the experiments rather complicated and requiring big, expensive bits of equipment?
to produce things like pyons, yes, they are.
you see the thing is produce something like a pyon you have to create enough energy to make it, and in order to create enough energy the you have to produce particles colliding at very high speeds, and in order to produce these particles you have to accelerate them.
modern accelerators tend to be rather large machines to produce the very high energy particles required to produce new particles.
of course pyons have been around now for so long that you don't need high energy machines to produce pyons.
in america and canada there are things called pyon factories that'll actually produce massive numbers of pyons for you without any great problems.
and going ever smaller, can you get from neutrinors to smaller particles?
from neutrinors?
well we haven't really discussed neutrionors yet.
we should leave the neutrionors aside for the time being.
erm we really got as far as the neutrons and the protons.
well, of course, again if you want to see what a neutron or a proton is made of, i mean a neutron is a very small thing and a proton is a very small thing — it's about ten to the minus thirteen centimetres across.
and if you're going to try and look inside one of these things then you're going to have to use very high energy particles, which in quantum physics means something that is very short wavelength that you can actually look inside, and when you look inside these things by, say, scattering electrons from them, very high energy electrons, it appears that inside a proton and inside a neutron is mainly again just free space, and there are other point like objects inside these particles, and these objects are know as quarks .
now no-one's ever seen a quark for the simple reason that no-one has ever managed to produced a free quark.
it appears that neutrons and protons are made up of quarks.
each neutron and each protons has got three — they have three quarks each — and these quarks have got very peculiar properties.
the main one that people are interested in, of course, is that they don't have integral charge.
they don't have one unit of charge.
a quark supposedly has one third charge or two thirds charge, but nobody has ever managed to actually produced a free quark, but people do believe they exist because they explain almost all the properties that neutrons and protons have, and other particles.
when people talk about quarks they use words like colour and charm and strangeness and other things.
they do, yes.
i suppose we should really begin at the word strangeness because the word strangeness goes back to the late fifties, early sixties, when some people discovered particles more massive than neutrons and protons and these particles were discovered in the erm cosmic radiation, and they were also produced by accelerators in laboratories.
now what happened was that these particles had very peculiar k properties.
for example, they lived very much longer than one would have expected, and gellmann said well these were strange particles and he invented a new quantum number called a strangeness, and then he assumed that this strangeness quantum number was not quite conserved. erm we have conserved quantum numbers in physics like the charge — you have to conserve the charge, but you don't quite have to conserve the strangeness.
so this was a new strange quantum number, and i think really what happened as new quantum numbers became necessary to describe the new types of particles, people just began to think of more sort of strange names like charm and beauty and erm things like this, but they have no real connection with what we normally understand by charm and beauty, they are just quantum numbers.
jim, can we go on forever?
will we find even smaller particles in future years?
that's a matter of guesswork.
i don't think anybody knows the answer to that.
i imagine that we will.
i mean in the past in has always turned out that what people have thought to be elementary turns out never to be elementary.
i mean at one stage we go back a hundred years — back to dalton he thought of his atoms as being fundamental entities that could never be broken up, whereas now we know that an atom is a very complicated structure and we can measure things about atoms, we can measure the distribution, we can where the electrons and so on are.
nuclei — there's been a tremendous amount of work done on nuclei.
we know the shapes of nuclei.
we know there are round ones, there are long thin ones, there are cigar shaped ones, there are disc shaped ones.
they turned out not to be elementary at all, they are complex things.
neutrons and protons are now believed not to be elementary, that inside them they have quarks.
even now there are theories which say that quarks are made up of other things and so on, so i mean who knows.
i think simply it's unknown.
jim, i'd love to keep going here and ask you a whole lot more questions.
unfortunately that's all the time we have today.
next week there'll be another programme in our series ideas in action.
until next week then, goodbye.
hello.
in this short series we're looking at the boundaries of science, and we're asking questions such as‘how cold can we get?’ and ‘what is the smallest particle that we can envisage?’.
today, by contrast, we're going to the other extreme.
we're going to peer into space and try to imagine the huge distances involved.
our guide is robert smith, who's an astronomer at the university.
robert, let's start by trying to put ourselves into context.
we're on a planet.
yes, and this planet is moving round the sun, which is part of the solar system.
the solar system contains not only our own planet, but also many other planets, at varying distances from the sun.
and the whole size of the solar system is something like forty astronomical units.
we're going to have to talk about what astronomical units are in a moment, but let's go on in terms of size.
we're part of this particular system, what comes next?
the sun is just a star, one of many thousands of millions of stars in our own galaxy, which is the milky way, which we see as we look up in the sky on a very dark night, and it was called the milky way by the ancients because it looked like a splash of milk across the sky, but we now know that it's a flattened system consisting of these thousands of millions of stars.
so we're actually part of the milky way system, the galaxy?
yes.
which is the milky way?
yes.
are there many other galaxies in the universe?
oh yes.
there are thousands of galaxies.
millions indeed.
our galaxy is just an ordinary galaxy among many others.
it's part of what's called the local group of galaxies which contains about thirty galaxies.
it is, in fact, one of the two largest galaxies in that group and nearby, in astronomical terms at least, there are other such groups containing thirty/forty/fifty galaxies maybe, and these galaxies themselves, these groups, are clustered into larger groups and these groups are glustered into even larger groups, so there are clusters of clusters of clusters of galaxies, right out to the furthest reaches of space.
all right.
let's go back to distances.
now you mentioned an astronomical unit, what's that?
yes, well that's just the name the astronomers use for the mean distance, the average distance, of the earth from the sun.
it's a convenient unit, perhaps a useful way of thinking about it is in terms of the time that light takes about eight minutes to reach us from the sun.
so what you're saying, in terms of the eight minutes, is that something, an event which happens on the sun, which is visible, takes about eight minutes to reach us.
yes, if the sun were to go out now we wouldn't know about it for eight minutes.
you've talked about many, many galaxies and so forth.
what sort of distance is there involved there?
well, the unit that we use there is the light year, which is the distance that light can travel in one year, and the nearest stars are about a light year away.
the furthest galaxies are about three thousand million light years away.
three thousand million light years — that really is a huge distance.
yes.
now if we try and get some idea of what this distance may correspond to, light travels at what sort of speed?
well, it travels at about three hundred thousand kilometres per second, or if you prefer the normal british units, a hundred and eighty six thousand miles per second.
a hundred and eighty six thousand miles per second.
what's the fastest that humans can travel?
oh, my goodness.
in miles per second that's not so easy, but humans have travelled at perhaps a few tens of miles per second in a spacecraft.
a few tens.
so we're talking about seveal thousands, if not getting closer to millions, of the speed that a human being would possibly travel?
yes.
so if we're talking about something talking about something taking a light year to reach us in terms of light, any possibility of human contact we're talking about millions of years, probably, rather than a few years.
yes.
and that's, i think, important because it gives us some concept of how far we would have to go to get there, as it were, apart from seeing it.
yes, that's right.
it would be very difficult even to to get to the nearest start.
it would take many thousands of years.
now light, presumably erm one of the reasons one chooses a light year as a unit or a distance is because it's a convenient number, but also presumably because it doesn't change very much with any physical factor.
i mean light is travels at a pretty constant speed, doesn't it?
that's right.
in fact the speed of light is now defined to be a constant.
so that's a good starting point.
yes.
you've talked about fairly large distances, distances that you couldn't possibly measure with tape measures and using normal methods of measurement, how on earth do you know these distances are the kind you describe?
that's a very good question.
light itself can be used as a sort of tape measure.
for example, for distances within the solar system, distances to the planets and to the sun, we can use radar methods.
i think this is probably familiar to most people.
a radar beam is one that you send out and it bounces off the thing you're trying to measure the distance of and then the beam comes back and is picked up again and you measure the time between the beam going out and the beam coming back, and that's twice the time it takes for the beam to get to the object and back again.
so if you know how fast the beam is going, and that's in fact the speed of light, then you know how far away the object is, and you can do this for the planets.
it's been done for venus and for mercury about twenty years ago.
how accurately would you be able to make these measurements?
how confident are you that they are correct?
quite remarkably accurate.
the basic astronomical unit is, in fact, known to about one part in a million.
so that's radar.
that'll get you a certain distance, but that pre-supposes you can actually bounce something back, doesn't it?
that's right.
so what happens if you can't bounce something back?
well you can't use that method, and indeed radar can't be used outside the solar system.
the next method that is used is a method which again is familiar to people on the earth — surveyors use it all the time — and that's what we call triangulation, and the idea there is that if you look at a distant object against an even more distant background, then the apparent direction will depend on where you're standing, and if you move from one end to the other of a baseline, then a distant steeple, for example, will appear to move against the hills on the horizon.
but, robert, we on earth must have a very small baseline compared with the big distances we're trying to measure?
oh yes.
i'm just trying to give you and idea of how the method works.
obviously you can't use any baseline that you can actually travel on foot from one end after the other, but we can use the astronomical unit itself as a baseline because the earth is moving round the sun.
it goes once round the sun every year.
that's what we mean by the year, and at opposite sides of its orbit a nearby star, for example, will appear to be in different directions relative the background of very much fainter, more distant stars, and we can use that to see how far away it is.
and that get us up to a certain distance, but even then that method must fail when you get beyond a certain distance.
oh yes.
yes.
that method can be used to distances of about a hundred light years.
beyond that the angles involved become just too small to be measured and we have to use a quite different kind of technique which involves knowing something about the properties of the objects we're looking at.
and we talk about standard light bulbs — the idea here is that take a terrestrial example again, suppose you're looking out at night and you see a light approaching you, if it's a cyclist with a very faint light then you'll not see him until he's quite close.
if it's a motorcar with very powerful headlights you'll see it very much further away.
so we want to get bright objects that we can see at great distances, but we also need to know something about what it is we're looking at.
if we saw the cyclist close to and the motorist a long way away, they would look about the same.
so the distance makes something look rather fainter, and similarly if you have something like a particular kind of start that you can identify by some property — which we'll perhaps talk about in a moment — if you can identify it and you know how bright it is, then the fainter ones are further away and you can estimate the distance by how faint they are.
what happens, robert, if the stars aren't actually fixed distance, but they're actually moving, either towards us or away from us.
doesn't that mess up you approach?
it does, but the stars, although they're moving fast by terrestrial standards, are moving very slowly by comparison with the vast distances we're talking about, and they don't change their distances by very much in the time that we're watching.
so what about the things that we occasionally hear of colour shifts and so on— is that relevant to what we're talking about at the moment?
that is a way of measuring the speeds at which stars and galaxies are moving away from us.
the effect here is similar to listening to a train whistle.
as the train goes past erm you get a note that goes .
the frequency changes as the train passes and the high note is when the train is coming towards us and the low one when the train is going away, and you get the same effect with light except that instead of being high and low it's blue shifted if the object is coming towards us and red if it's going away.
do we actually have blue shift stars?
i've heard of red shifts.
oh yes.
we have both do we?
stars near the sun have both well some have blue shifts and some have red shifts, so they're moving in all directions relative to the sun.
all right, now we've got pretty well way out — have we been able to reach the furthest objects in space by these methods, or are we stil stuck for a method?
well, by an extension of the this standard light bulb method you can get most of the way into the universe.
the nearby galaxies you can reach using a kind of special variable star.
it varies in brightness and the way that it varies picks it out.
its a sort of signature — you can recognise that particular kind of star — it's called a sephied variable, and we know how bright that is and so we can use that to get distances to nearby galaxies.
for very distant objects these stars themselves are too faint to be visible, but if you look at clusters of galaxies, we find that the very brightest galaxy in a cluster is the same brightness in all clusters and so the fainter it looks to us the further away the cluster of galaxies must be.
and then we come to the red shift, in fact, that you were talking about a minute ago.
because although stars near to us show both red shifts and blue shifts, distant galaxies show only red shifts, and that means that all the galaxies that we can see are moving away from us.
the universe, in fact, is expanding (although that's another talk really) and for the present purpose the important thing is that they're moving away at a speed which increases with their distance and so if we can measure the speed that they're moving away from us, then we can find their distance, and that takes us to the edge of the universe.
are there events taking place that we will never ever see because they're so far away, or maybe they're taking place in such a way that they're moving away faster than the light is travelling in our direction?
no, they won't be moving away faster than light is travelling because the theory of relativity says that nothing can move faster than light, but there are certainly things which may be happening now which we shall not learn about for thousands of millions of years because they are so far away.
and when you look far into space, you're also looking back in time and we're looking back when we look at the very most distant objects.
we're looking right back to the beginning of the universe.
and, lastly, if you went into space and you really went very fast and for a long, long time, would you ever reach an edge?
would you ever reach an end?
would you ever reach a boundary?
that's disputed at the moment.
erm i think the consensus is that you wouldn't — that either space is infinite, or at the very least it it's finite it has no edge, so if you went in one direction for long enough you would come back in the other direction.
robert, the mind literally boggles at those distances mine does, anyway.
so does mine.
thank you very much.
i'd love to talk to you more about this, but i'm afraid that's all that we have time for today.
hello.
peter simpson is a chemist at the university.
it's a long time ago since i did any chemistry.
it was at school, and my memories of chemistry is laboratories full of stink bombs, full of bangs, and rather unpleasant chemicals.
has chemistry changed very much over the years, peter?
well it's probably a good deal less smelly and bangy than once it was.
the health and safety at work act has made us rather more concerned about smells and bangs and the dangers these cause, so perhaps life is a little bit less smelly than it was, perhaps a little less exciting, but it ought to be a little longer too.
on a more serious note, has chemistry changed as a subject very much over the last, dare i say, twenty five years?
well, yes, i think it has.
there have been scientific developments, of course, in chemistry, but perhaps it's seen now as being more important in the context of the contribution it's making to other important areas such as biology, environmental science and so forth .
at school one did a certain amount of chemistry, and then at university one did what was possibly a slightly different subject.
is that still true, or is the chemistry at school very similar to the chemistry that one would do at university?
i think it's probably fairly similar, but of course it gets more sophisticated, both in terms of the intellectual level at which you talk about chemistry, the concepts and so forth, and also in terms of the sort of experiments you can do because we have such sophisticated apparatus now, which you couldn't possibly get in a school laboratory.
so we can do more sophisticated things experimentally and intellectually i would say.
now does that matter, so far as being at school is concerned, if they can't really do proper experiments does that mean to say they can't do proper chemistry?
i wouldn't say that they couldn't do proper experiments at school, i don't think that's right.
it's just that we do rather more sophisticated versions sometimes of very similar things which are done at school, but they might be done more precisely, simply in a rather more sophisticated way.
but i am sure that if someone found they liked doing chemistry at school they're likely to find that they like continuing to do it at university, and vice versa.
if it turns them off at school it will probably turn them off at university.
taking your point that chemistry at university is a privileged subject in so far as that the equipment available is more sophisticated, more expense, more accurate, possibly, surely universities ought to be doing something to help kids in schools?
well, yes, that's absolutely right, and i think we've always taken it as part of our responsibilities here really that they should extend over towards students in schools as well as students here at the university, and we do of course do quite a lot, in various ways, across the science area, to contribute towards science in schools.
tell me some of the things that we do.
well the science area as a whole has a number of activities.
for example, we organise an annual school science lecture.
this takes place in late november and on two separate evenings we fill our largest lecture theatre with local school children from both sides of the county, sometimes a little bit further afield, and that means that we're giving them an illustrated lecture by one of our more distinguished colleagues, and we entertain and inform, i think, something like eight hundred school children every year in that alone.
and that's something that possibly the public don't know about.
wel it doesn't get a great deal of publicity in the media, and of course we only circulate information about it to schools, so i'm sure that the man in the street probably has never heard of it.
what sort of subjects will we tackle at these november lectures?
well we try to span right over the range of science.
we've had lectures in the biology area, in physics, in engineering and in chemistry, so that we've really spanned the whole shooting match really as far as that goes, and of course we try to put something into these lectures for those doing the most advanced work in the sixth form and also for those doing o levels, let's say, and some who are younger even than that.
we try in other words to hit a variety of targets of different ages, right across the spectrum.
that's one big lecture in the year.
are there occasions when there are other opportunities for kids to meet university people, perhaps hear them speak about their subjects?
well again the science area as a whole puts out a very large list of lecture titles, which it is prepared to deliver in schools.
now this is very much a voluntary activity on the part of those who give the lectures, but neverthless we have an extremely large list, right across the science area, of lecture titles and lecturers, people who are prepared to go out and do this in schools, and of course they get an opportunity to meet teachers and students in schools in this way.
you talk about a large list erm how many possible lectures are there on the list?
oh, i should say of the four science schools on average we've got maybe thirty or forty titles from each, so that's about well certainly well over a hundred titles altogether.
and how many schools avail themselves of this opportunity each year?
it's a little bit variable, i think, from our own science school — one science school to another — and from year to year, but i would say maybe twenty or thirty for each science school.
and any school can get a lecturer to come out, subject to availability of course, to give one of these?
well we generally aim to have i suppose most of our lectures at an a level standard, but we have a significant number for those doing o level, indeed some lectures which can be tailored for either, so anybody very mucg below o level we probably couldn't cater for — i think probably because we wouldn't feel competent, rather than because we don't want to do it.
so some of the lectures are actually aimed at a level students.
certainly, yes.
others at o level students.
right.
and some could be given at either level?
well they might be tailored a little bit according to the level, but basically it's a similar lecture.
do they come with demonstrations?
usually this is so, but of course the lecturers they are very different in their approaches — some will use this illustration approach more than others.
and if there are any teachers that want to know about this, they could get details by contacting you, peter simpson, at the university?
they could indeed, yes, at the school of chemistry and molecular sciences.
good.
now that's lecturing, what other contacts do we have with schools?
well, as a chemist perhaps you'll forgive me for dwelling largely on what we as chemists do, but of course it's not only the chemists in the school of chemistry and molecular sciences who do things for schools — it's right across the area — but each year, for example, we have a week set aside for sixth form visits, in which parties of sixth formers come to the school and we're about to talk to them about university entrance, about what goes on in universities, but, most importantly, to show them some of the apparatus which they don't have at school but which they've probably heard about.
i think we've settled down to a pattern of events now which schools have actually indicated to us is what they want to see.
and what time of the year does this happen?
this is in the summer.
this year i think it's the first week in july we have set aside for this purpose.
and again arrangements are made between schools and the university to accommodate groups of children, or 
right.
we send out details to the schools each year, and they will book to bring a party of children round for, oh it lasts about two and a half hours altogether, and they will come either for a morning or for an afternoon.
we in physics have two or three opportunities for sixth formers, fifth formers to come to the university and find out a little bit more about physics.
we run a lower sixth form residential summer school for kids, which has been very popular for the past five years.
we also run a summer school called women into physics, which is a rather strange title, but the idea basically is to persuade, if not encourage, young girls who have just taken their o levels that physics is a subject which could be for them — it's not unladylike about being a scientist and, in particular, being a physicist.
do you do anything like this in chemistry, peter.
well, not quite like this.
i think this merely emphasises that each school is operating its own erm thing, as it were.
but i must say i'm very encouraged to see the numbers of women who are applying to do subjects like chemistry and physics is going up and certainly we would applaud that sort of activity.
i think as chemists we would be glad to see more and more women come into the subject.
do you think that there is a disadvantage to being a woman at school, so far as a science subject's concerned?
do you think that teachers really don't expect them to do well in the sciences and perhaps even positively discourage them from going into science?
i doubt whether this is done deliberately, but i think it's part of everybody's perception of science in schools that girls do biology and boys do chemistry and physics, and i suppose this is bound to have its affect on people's choices, but i personally, and i think most of my colleagues would agree with me on this, see no reason to suppose that girls should be any less good at chemistry and physics than boys.
are they at any form of disadvantage when they come to university studying a science subject such as chemistry?
i don't think so.
i don't think so at all.
it's interesting, actually, since i teach a first year class of biologists, where we do have rather more girls than boys, that erm as a class it works very well, possibly better than some of our own chemistry classes where there are fewer girls, and i don't know whether this is because of the mix or not.
and certainly if they come for interview, if they apply to the university, they get a very good chance of entrance.
oh certainly, yes, there's no question of discriminating against women.
we're looking for good candidates whether they're men or women.
peter, the things we're talking about are highly commendable, but i suspect at the back of the minds of most kids at school the question of examinations — whether they're going to get their o level, or their a level, or their g c e or whatever — to what extent are university people involved in examining?
well we're involved in actual fact to quite a heavy extent.
within our own school two of us are actually senior examiners for one examining board and this brings us into contact with teachers and indeed candidates.
it helps a great deal to keep us in touch with what's happening at school and enables us to exert some influence, i suppose, on what happens in schools, hopefully in the interests of the candidates.
do you find a resistance to change in schools in terms of the examination syllabus and content?
i think possibly the reverse.
there have been an enormous series of changes over the last ten or fifteen years, and maybe some school teachers would be glad if it slowed down a little bit to make their life a little easier, i don't know.
sir keith joseph has recently gone on record as saying that he wished that examiners could be more objective in their assessment of what children know.
is there any application of this in chemistry that you can see?
is there a body of chemistry that, if you knew it, you're all right, as it were , you could pass a certain exam and if you didn't know it, or is chemistry a little bit subjective in terms of its assessment?
well there's an element of subjectiveness, inevitably, in an assessment, i think, but of course we are aware of this problem and we do try to be a objective as we possibly can.
we try to set ourselves specific aims and objectives and when it comes to marking scripts, for example, we have a quite specific mark scheme which has been very carefully thrased out, not only with examiners, but with certain school teachers, which we try to make tie this down as be as objective as we can, but there's always and element of subjectivity.
if there are four marks for a given point, the candidate who gets it all right gets four, the candidate who gets it all wrong gets nothing, but the chap who gets it part right has a possibility of one, two or three, and it's often a question of judgement as to what an imperfect answer is worth.
do you use multiple choice papers in examinations these days?
yes, most boards do, i think, but to varying extents.
i think probably something like twenty per cent of the marks for most boards will go on the multiple choice erm paper.
we use multiple choice question papers in physics too.
i'm always a little bit worried about them because it seems to me that they almost define the syllabus in terms of what you can ask four reasonable questions in terms of alternatives about.
well i wouldn't like to see an exam system which was entirely multiple choice questions for just that reason.
i would also like to see skills of writing and arguing developed and tested.
but they are particularly easy to mark, but i suspect they give us a false sense of objectivity and i think we sometimes give the statistics a little bit too much weight.
lastly, in terms of chemistry as a career, is it a good career these days, peter?
well my feeling is that students who graduate from here ultimately get jobs.
many of them, of course, not in chemistry.
there are fewer jobs in chemistry than there used to be.
in an economic upturn that may change, of course, but i think they all get jobs of some sort, and i would have hoped that a chemistry degree, a good training in chemistry, would in fact also train people to think in such a way that they could apply it to a lot of other areas.
chemists have traditionally taken employment in other areas anyway.
lots of chemists have made very good chartered accountants, for example, but i would like to see very many more — let's say science trained people going out into the professions, particularly into politics.
so it's a training for life, not just a training for being a chemist?
i would like to think so.
peter, thank you very much.
that's all that we have time for today.
next
hello.
in our series about computers we're looking at applications in all sorts of different areas, and today we're going to talk about how they're used in medicine.
would you tell your symptoms to an electronic box?
i recently asked dr jim hunter whether in the future diagnosis would be by computer rather than by doctor.
yes and no i suppose.
i think we're taking first faltering steps in this direction at the moment.
is a computer better than a doctor?
well, the studies that i've been involved in, the computer has performed certainly as well as a consultant, and at times much better than a junior doctor in the particular situation that i'm talking about.
it sounds to me as if it could be a bit worrying to think that when you went to see your doctor you'd be faced by a machine instead of a human being the other side of desk.
well there are two answers to that i suppose.
one is that we're certainly nowhere near that.
all of the uses that i know of diagnostic computers are involve the doctor talking to the patient, looking at the patient, taking symptoms and then going and using the computer in a similar way that we perhaps might go and ask for an x-ray.
the other answer is that erm certainly some trials have been done with patients not being diagnosed by a computer, but by giving initial information like their age, their date of birth, erm where the pain is, etc. erm actually interacting themselves with the computer, and studies have shown curiously that patients actually prefer to use a computer rather than to give this information to a doctor.
now why this should be, i don't know.
whether it's because they feel they're not taking up the valuable time of a doctor, they can go at their own pace, who knows?
but certainly it may even be that people might, in the future, even prefer to talk to computers under some circumstances.
that sounds absolutely fascinating.
i suppose one advantage of a computer is that it can store and remember a great deal of information.
yes.
the if i can talk perhaps a little bit about the particular system that i'm interested in, the way it works is that it well it diagnoses abdominal pain; if you go into the erm particular casualty department — in the fact the royal sussex county hospital at the moment — with back pain in your abdomen, lower abdomen, then the symptoms will be taken by a doctor and he will then go to the diagnostic computer and feed these symptoms in.
these cover a large range of things, like the patient's age, the patient's sex, where the pain is, where it started, how quickly it came on, and so on and so forth, and essentially within the computer has a large table, and this table contains, how shall i put it, the frequency with which this particular symptom was associated with a particular disease over the last few hundred patients that have been seen at that hospital.
it's very limited.
it only deals with the acute abdomen.
it deals with pains like appendicitis, coley cystitis, which is inflammation of the gall bladder — about nine different diseases — and it merely says to you at the end of the operation based on the last five or six hundred patients i've seen, the probability of this patient having appendicitis is ninety per cent, the probability of something else being ten per cent .
so, yes, it has a big database of about oh three thousand numbers, and it just looks these up essentially.
so it could be used as a preliminary check for patients, more or less on a routine basis?
before the doctors or the consultant actually sees a patient, then 
well not before the doctor sees the patient, because much of the information that is fed in would have to be gain, acquired, by somebody with a good deal of medical knowledge.
when i say ‘where is the pain?’ and questions like this, this could be answered just by asking the patient, but there are erm various kinds of tests — one lovely test called murphy's test, for example— which have to be carried out by a qualified doctor or a qualified medical person, so it's not a question of must being hooked onto the computer and the computer giving the answer.
it's an aid to the doctor for making diagnoses, not a diagnostic instrument in itself.
is there anything special about this sort of computer?
is it an ordinary digital computer of the sort that's used in commerce and industry, or is it a special type of computer.
is it the program or is it the computer that's specific?
it's the program that's very specific to this problem.
erm the one at the royal sussex is perhaps interesting, in that in fact it's the computer is based on a microprocessor, so it really is using the latest erm in advanced microtechnology.
the computer itself is a box, oh what, a foot and a half by a foot by two feet, very small.
erm but it's the program, yes, it's the application of complex programs to thee very sophisticated but very small computers, i think, which is of interest in this particular case.
mhm and how many places in this country are computers actually used in diagnosis?
oh, there you have me.
i don't know in general.
this particular system erm for diagnosing the acute abdomen, acute abdominal pain, we got the basic ideal from a hospital in edinburgh.
they in turn got it from a hospital in leeds, and i know of one other implementation in sheffield of this particular system, so there may be two or three others that i don't know about, perhaps four or five in this country, of this particular type.
erm of more general types, i really don't know.
not very many.
is it used much more in the united states where medicine is much more expensive altogether?
yes, certainly, the erm place where such diagnostic systems came from, i think, was certainly the states, and most research has been done there — stanford in particular has been very much involved in this so-called expert system.
you do this research in collaboration with the royal sussex hospital.
is that where the idea came from originally?
the original idea came from a doctor dedombar in leeds.
this his system was implemented in one or two places, including edinburgh, and our current ideas essentially came from edinburgh, from bangor hospital near edinburgh.
the consultant down here who got interested is a mr philip somerville, who's a senior consultant at the royal sussex.
he visited edinburgh, saw what they were doing there, liked it and decided to see whether it could be done at sussex and approached the university through the bi-medical engineering group, of which i'm a member, and i was interested.
we did a lot of talking, of course, and then it was decided that we could possibly raise some money by going to the league of friends, which we did, and they very generously provided well in fact the whole total is about five thousand pounds, of which three and a half thousands represents the computer, and we're about to go live, as it were , in a week or two.
so far we've only had particular doctors using it to run it in, as it were, but in the very near future we hope that all of the doctors in the accident department will be using this system.
do you have a medical background at all?
none whatsoever.
so you do have to rely very heavily on collaboration with the local doctors?
oh indeed.
this is one very good aspect of such projects, i think, that the interesting work is to be done at the interface between one discipline — medicine in this case and another discipline — computer science — where both people just have to learn to talk to each other in their own language.
that's part of the problem in doing such research, certainly.
do you think that it could ever be true that they would be sufficiently inexpensive that they could be used in most doctors' surgeries, or is it going to be something which is only used in one or two important hospitals?
oh no.
i think expense certainly won't be a problem.
i can very well see such prices going down and down and down well certainly to several hundred pounds.
in particular, if one started to make such systems much more, how shall i put it,tailor the electronics to the purpose, then the cost could be quite low.
at the moment we're dealing with a general purpose system, which is designed for all sorts of applications, and one pays for having a thing general purpose by costing more money.
certainly it's feasible to have them in g ps surgeries.
i would, myself, be very keen to look at the possibility of such machines perhaps even going to third world countries, because it's even arguable that the place for such intelligence systems is not to replace expert medical people in this country where we have such people, but to export them to developing countries which don't have such people, and one could imagine, perhaps, a system of erm paramedical orderlies, who had some sort of medical knowledge and manipulative skill, taking a small expert computer in a shoe box — it would be no bigger — to villages and getting diagnoses of patient illnesses there on the spot.
so it would make a great deal of difference in areas where there's very little available in the way of medical services.
what's the future, then?
you've worked out a program or a system for acute erm stomach pains — are you planning to move onto other areas and gradually build up a catalogue of aches and pains in the body, or what?
well this particular system that i'm working on a the moment is really unintelligent.
it, as i said earlier, really just looks up a table of data values, numerical values, and comes up with an answer and you can't question it, you can't ask it why did you get that particular answer.
erm it doesn't give an answer, but if you could the only answer it could give is that what my tables say is wrong.
now there is a class of systems, so-called expert systems, which have come out of artificial intelligence research, which can do much more than that, are much more intelligent.
internally, they mirror the structure of an expert's thought, in this case of a doctor's thoughts, which tends to be much more.
if i see this and if i see that, then that means something else, and that something else taken in conjunction with something else that i see might suggest so and so, and so on.
this is the way that people think, people reason.
this isn't the way that the current system reasons, and i would certainly like to take the current system and push it in this direction of being more expert in a human sense.
i think one of the great areas of such as system is in teaching young doctors, in training people, and an expert who can't tell a tutee why he has given a certain answer isn't really much good as a teacher.
i think to be a good teaching aid something has to say ‘well i think this because’ and, as it were, retrace the chain of reasoning that i've just the sort of chain that i've given you.
so that, i think, is where this research ought to go, into truly expert systems rather than in statistical machines, which is what it is at the moment.
so what you would see is the machine, as it were, engaging the patient in a much more perhaps conversational mode and with much more feedback and response to the way in which the patient is answering the questions or behaving, rather than just, as it were , a machine which elicits information from the patient and compares it with a statistical set of data.
yes, whether one would ever actually get such a system interacting with a patient is difficult to foresee.
it's possible, i suppose, but i think a lot of research has to be done on the way interaction takes place.
i think we've got to work out better ways of machines interacting with doctors, perhaps before we're ready to move on to machines interacting with patients.
well that sounds absolutely fascinating.
i believe there's one other area in which you're working, and that is putting computers together to simulate visual interpretation of some kind.
is that so?
yes.
erm this is a more abstract research project, which is concerned with the idea that we may, very soon perhaps, reach the limit of what we can cram onto a silicon chip.
that being so, the only way to get more computing power to attack any given problem — and the sort of problems i'm interested in are very complex problems — the only way to get enough computing power to tackle these may be to make a number of computers work together in co-operation; what we call multiprocessor systems or, since we're interested in microprocessors, small computers, we talk about multimicroprocessor systems.
a particular research project that i and two colleagues, keith baker and erin sloman, have a grant from the science research council for is to look first of all at the problems of getting such as system with, well at the moment three but possibly up to twelve computers, working on a given existing artificial intelligence problem to see how to take this big program — it's called popeye — it's a research project to study various areas of visual perception, as you say — to see how to break this down and have it running simultaneously on a number of much smaller computers, rather than on the single big computer that it's running on at the moment.
the second half of the project is concerned really with how on earth we get such program to work, such programs are very complicated, they interact in various odd ways, and getting the bugs out, getting the problems out or debugging as the jargon has it, is a really serious problem and we hope to make some advance on the problem of erm developing programs for such distributed multi-processor systems.
thank you very much, jim, for talking about this research.
however, we're going to examine quite a different area how computer can help librarians to make better use of their stock.
peter stone is a librarian at the university.
peter, how useful have you found the computer in our library?
well, first of all i suppose one should say that we don't just use one computer, we, like lots of other libraries, have got access to a large number of computers, and indeed you'll find these computers being used elsewhere for the same sort of work.
probably most people have seen displays of prestel, even in television rental shops, which is a system running through the post office network, accessing large amounts of mainly factual information — things like telephone directories, like timetables, like oh a lot of business information.
that's very effective if you're dealing with factual information which is changing fairly rapidly, and i think we'll see quite a growth of that in the next few years, but libraries aren't just stores of factual information, they store a large number of books and articles and they need access to that too, and probably the most typical external use of a computer in libraries in a university library, or academic library, these days is to access the huge stores of information on scientific publishing.
there's one gigantic computer in california, which has got access to a hundred databases there called the stores of information, compiled mainly by the publishers of journals.
it's got thirty million articles in it and you can find information, pull out articles relevant to your needs by looking for authors, looking for words in the text, and you can look at the summary of the article very quickly.
in both prestel and those sorts of things as you use the system you pay, and you pay for the telecommunications cost, you pay for the computer cost and you pay for the information that you receive, and that sort of worthwhile sharing of information, i am sure, is going to grow.
however, my own interest, perhaps, is more in what a library, a typical library — not just a university library can do with its own computer, and most of our readers, most of the people who use libraries, expect to find books in those libraries and expect to find them when they want them, and our interests have been angled very much towards improving that sort of service.
so there's a sense in which you use a computer for all sorts of different purposes.
you use a computer when books are issued, for example?
yes.
i'm sure most people by now are quite familiar with the use of computers in this way.
in fact, in about 1971 there was a sudden spate of development in this area, and both the university library and what was then brighton public library, and west sussex, all were innovators in those days, using computer-based lending systems, which used little cards with lots of little holes in them, and i am sure they are familiar to lots of people.
in the last few years you'll have seen those holes replaced by sort of zebra stripes — what we call bar codes in the trade, and those bar codes you'll also see on your groceries all over the place.
that's an interesting problem, the way we communicate to a computer is not the way we necessarily think of it.
you can only distinguish your library card from that of a book by a difference in the thickness of one line.
it's just a thick line for humans and a thin line for books, possibly, but it works and we haven't had any problems.
so when you are actually checking out a book the librarian runs a little light pen, is it, over the code, so that it 
that's it.
well there again there's a compromise.
we all know how to use pens, we were taught how to use pen in primary school, but the computer can't read our writing yet, so we use something which looks like a pen, but is reading something which doesn't look like letters of the alphabet and words, but which it can understand and understand very quickly and very accurately indeed.
and presumably the advantage of using a computer for that is much greater than the mere erm saving of time in a librarian taking out a card and putting it in a wallet or a card folder or something like that, because you can retain in your computer a lot of information about what books are in the library and what books are out with lenders and so on.
right.
that information is only part of the very large store of information that we need to retain in our own local computer, which contains records about, oh it's about a hundred and fifty thousand of our four hundred and fifty thousand different books at this moment.
going back on what i said earlier on, east sussex county library, for example, keep their records of books, their catalogue, on a system which is run from the british library, and the polytechnic draws that sort of information from a co-operative which was originally based in birmingham.
we've chosen to go it alone, but the net result is the same, that the computer store of information includes information on the authors and the titles of the books and, of course, now includes information on the books that are being borrowed, who's got them, when they're coming back, how many other copies we've got, whether we've got copies on order, and all of that, all in one central store of information, a central store which can be shared by everyone using the library.
mhm and i suppose in the old days if you actually wanted to know which books were popular and which books were not used at all you had to send a librarian to painstakingly look through the shelves, perhaps, and look at the date stamps or something like that, whereas now it's presumably just a question of pressing a few buttons and the information comes.
well right.
in the old days we simply couldn't afford to do that.
we're not dealing with a thousand items, we're dealing with four hundred and fifty thousand items, and for anyone to go and collect that information on a larger scale even sampling it would have been almost unthinkable.
now the computer can collect this sort of information as people borrow the books, as a sort of by-product if you like.
the book is lent, it needs to be known when it's gone out, when it's due back, but the computer can clock up one.
that bit of information adds to other bits of information, all within the central store.
we know what the price of the book was.
we had to pay for it, so we had to send off a bill and therefore it knows what the price is.
we have to put a shelf mark on the book so that we can shelve the book, but that tells us quite a lot about the subject.
and if you start putting those three things together, the librarian, as manager of his library, can start to put all this information together.
in fact the computer digests it for him to give him and overview of how effective his operation is, when he should be buying extra copies, when perhaps he should be thinking of not buying quite so much, or being a little more selective.
but the reader gains as well because he sees it from a different angle.
most of our users come into the library looking for a very specific book.
about eighty per cent of the users are students, and they've normally been told to read this, or read that, or read the other and if they now use one of our computer terminals, which has got a little video screen on the top and a little keyboard, they can look up the books.
they can look the up by title, by the title of the book, as well as by the traditional author approach, and when they've found it the computer tells them how many copies are in the library or whether or they're all on loan.
it's all drawing information from this same central store of information.
it's a way of sharing information amongst a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons, information which previously would have been separated and almost impossible to put together without a great deal of effort.
let's hark back to what you were saying earlier about information storage on a very large scale.
you mentioned the explosion of information, particularly in the science area where there are thousands, literally thousands, of publications and scientists producing more information, more data every day and pumping into these things.
do you think it's going to ultimately change the whole notion of publishing?
do you think that perhaps in due course publishing will move into an area in which you wouldn't ever actually print anything, you would actually put it into a machine.
yes.
well it's very interesting, but i'm not sure it's working in the same direction as almost implied by your question of implying that there was almost too much.
one of the more fascinating changes has been the introduction of word processing equipment, whereby someone who types his article can just sent off something like a floppy disk to his publisher, and without much intervention it appears as the printed article.
the publisher, traditionally, needs to sell at least a thousand copies of that to be worth even advertising it, but this means that you can print an extra copy whenever you want and this then implies and even larger and larger growth in more and more specialised information which only computers can manage, and one hesitates to work out where the end of all this is.
the human race is producing so much information.
it isn't factual information, we're not just looking at price movements of stocks and shares, but in the scientific community it's very much to do with ideas and how that person can get across his ideas, his concepts, to people half a world away.
that's a very complicated question.
and you mentioned then how a floppy disk, that's a sort of disk storage device, can be used to get a book printed.
is this being used at all in practice, or is it just a daydream?
oh yes, indeed, a close friend of mine has been working on a history of a very large british company and he's just seen the proofs produced from the printers from the typescript which was typed in his own office, and apart from the fact that their computers can change the typefaces and improve the whole thing, the work has not had to be rekeyboarded, as they would say, retyped in, at all.
it does save things very considerably.
it's part of this way in which the computer can turn information over and over again for a different need.
i saw in publishing a very nice example of that — not the word processing — but at john wylies, who are very big scientific publishers in chichester, where they had a computer system which the editor — he's the person who deals with the author, puts the book together — set about ordering the book, the orders and that information went into the computer, when the thing was printed it went into the warehouse and the computer then organised the storage of all of these things in the warehouse.
orders came in, and that helped the warehouse unpack the boxes and despatch them.
the information got fed back to the editor to tell him what the sales were.
it was a continuous process, and all of the people tended to see the computer as working very much for them rather than for the other department next door.
and presumably if you wanted to revise a book at all and you had the book on your floppy disk or in your computer in some form, you could again use your word processor to bring it up to date in a revised version?
well that is i think everyone who's ever worked on computers, editing or word processing, has been very fascinated by the change of attitude that they've had, that somehow it isn't finished, it's never finished.
previously you could ask someone to type up first draft, second draft, maybe a third draft, but how far can you drive your secretary — and now they can be wholly in charge of this.
they can change the layout of it as much as the words within it.
they can ask colleagues to come in and comment and you can add a little bit.
could you revise paragraph ten, fred?
that sort of thing goes on continuously.
the thing is moulded under your eyes, and a recent book which has been very popular in the university gödel esher bach which is on some of the aspects of artificial intelligence and ideas, has in its preface got quite a long article on how the author actually organised all of the processes, right through to the final printing of that book, and indeed even wrote the programs for formatting the text, and it has obviously been very stimulating for him.
he could organise the final output of everything that he had thought right from beginning through to end.
well thank you very much, peter, that most interesting.
that's all that we have time for today.
hello.
in our ideas in action programme i shall be talking to dr mike king about teaching science to very young children in schools.
i shall be asking him questions such as‘is it a good idea for parents to encourage their children to become interested in science by buying them toys, such as a chemistry sets, for christmas’.
well they're a lot of fun and kids love them, and as i commented a little earlier to somebody i still haven't quite forgiven my mother-in-law for the chemistry set she bought my seven year old.
he is absolutely amazed by it and spends lots of time in the garage and the back, which actually means that i spend an awful lot of time in that garage in the cold too.
there is an exhibition of science carried out by children in first schools in brighton and hove at the booth museum, dyke road, this week.
it's open to the public on tuesday, wednesday, and friday.
hello.
science is thought of as a subject that is difficult both to teach and to learn.
the folklore in school terms is that you have to be a relatively ancient teenager to appreciate physics and chemistry and biology.
is this true?
today i have with me dr mike king, who's made a study of science teaching in schools.
mike, how early can science be taught to children?
well i think that rather depends on saying fairly concisely what it is we mean by science.
if in a sense it means how early can you teach children facts and contents and very straightforward knowledge, then i think the answer is not very early at all because it may be fairly meaningless that you could teach a child to repeat newton's law, perhaps the same way as you could teach him to repeat the eleven times table, but without a good concept of number or what newton meant.
it's probably something they could learn off parrot fashion, but doesn't have any actual meaning for them.
but if you look at science as a way of exploring their world, a world they can structure their curiosity about aspects of the physical world, about aspects of the environment, then i think we can do it very early indeed, probably from the time children can come to school at the age of five and from reception classes onwards.
in fact, we do run a project which looks at the ways science can be taught in the first school, which has been very surprising to me and many of my colleagues by what can actually be done with children in the ages of five to seven.
for most young children in that age group, the world's a magic place and we traditionally like to teach them nature study and flowers and cuddly hamsters and rabbits in school, and that's the nature table syndrome, and that's great and i'm not knocking that at all.
there is so much opportunity for children to look at the nature of the physical world around them which isn't taken advantage of, and which could be, and i think that may have something to do with the attitude of teachers as much as the attitude of children.
but erm they're tremendously curious about the nature of the world around them and they're certainly capable of, if not understanding why, exploring what.
i took my godson, dominic robinson, round my laboratory the other day, which is a physics laboratory, and he enjoyed it immensely and asked a number of questions, and was absolutely intrigued and fascinated by the various bits of wires and plugs and so on like that, and he asked me the sort of questions that i don't think i would expect sometimes my undergraduates to ask.
they were perhaps stemmed from innocence, but they were very searching and very real questions, and he was obviously very excited to ask them and to listen to some of the answers.
do you think we perhaps put kids off an interest in science by our sort of insistence that they have to have a solid understanding of newton's laws and all sorts of principles, and we lose the magic too early?
yes, i'm sure we do, and i think that's to do with our notions of what science is.
there's a mystique which has built up about it.
anybody who's worked in graduate or postgraduate level in science likes almost to continue that mystique.
yes, we do put children off by being rigid because a child, i am sure, doesn't see the world in a rigid way.
what's out there is all out there.
bits of his universe are to do with art and colour and drawing.
i mean if you watch a child, and i have a seven year old boy, playing stacking cards or dominoes is the current thing in our house, watching them stack them and then knocking them off and watching them fall and the way they fall, the amount of work which is involved there in structures and forces and the nature of gravity and the way things behave under gravity fascinate them.
the problem, of course, is most of us couldn't give a sensible reply to the very searching questions they ask, so we tend to say something like ‘that's a fascinating questions, but you'll have to wait till you're older and ask a scientist’.
that's not the children's mistake, that's ours, because we couldn't actually for the best part respond in a meaningful way.
and in another sense what we don't do often is to actually recognize the significance of the child's question because of the language he puts it in.
he asks something which, you know, i mean the way they do, what is life, and you wouldn't know — unless you're perhaps trained or awake to the significance of what the child is actually asking — you wouldn't know how to respond to that, so you tend to put it off.
you mentioned that schools are quite good at biology, that they have guinea pigs and they have growing plants and so forth, and i think you hinted at the fact that they perhaps are not quite so good at maybe the harder sciences, we might call them, of physics and chemistry.
is that the case and, if so, what can we do about it at an early stage?
i believe that is the case, and i believe that again is a reflection of us as adults erm and not an indictment of teachers.
they show great pedagogic skills in almost every aspect of school life.
most of us, as people who live in this world, are interested in our environment, and even if not young we certainly grow to appreciate it and to learn a bit about flowers and the way animals live and work in our garden and watching david attenborough on television and erm we have a genuine interest because as part of this world we know it and come to understand it, and probably feel, therefore, if even if you're not a biology specialist, which you certainly don't have to be by any means, when a child asks a question about, you know, ‘where do the flies go in winter?’ and ‘why's the hamster gone to sleep for three months?’we feel more capable of answering it because we're closer to it ourselves and those are the sorts of questions that people told us.
when a child asks a question about something dropping from a height — does it get faster and it falls for longer and longer?— that probably is a question that most teachers who are not trained in the physical sciences just cannot answer.
what can we do about it?
i think at the end it must come down to two things; one basically a change in attitude — we have to come to recognise that we live in a very, very technological society, that most of us were born before man walked on the moon, but the kids in school were born in an age when man had walked on the moon ten years ago and they live in a world which is very scientific, and we have to recognise that — and the other one is practical sense, i think, where we really have to look seriously to in-service training of teachers, a) and b) we have to look carefully at the way we train teachers now.
in many institutions which train primary and first school teachers, the teachers themselves have an option as to whether they can do a science course or not and then even if they do it it's usually very biologically biased erm towards the natural sciences.
at sussex we actually make a third of the time they spend on the university component of their courses compulsory work in science — that is to say every student does it — so we can actually do something about it practically by looking at our processes of initial training and coming to realise what an important section of the world this is and training teachers accordingly, and not to leave it at that but to continue with erm progressive and planned in-service training of teachers.
our own experience from several of the projects that we've been looking at which are in-service type projects, is that when we do train teachers and when we do put an investment in it, we see the pay-off in the schools that physical science does get done in schools, it is fun and it is exciting.
it's when the teachers think this is a boring, mundane, difficult thing to do, then that tends to be put over to the children and of course the disaster is that the children will believe it, and it if the children will believe it then we grow up in a highly technological society producing very few technologists or scientists.
what you describe does sound a little bit like a chicken and egg situation from the point of view that i think you were saying that erm many teachers are ill-equipped, actually, to teach erm physics, perhaps, and chemistry, whereas they are a little bit better able to get across fundamental ideas in biology, and in a sense because of this they are going to produce another generation who perhaps have very ill-founded ideas of these basic sciences and so on and so forth, and somehow one's got to cut into this cycle and actually improve it, improve the output somehow.
yes, the chicken and egg syndrome is interesting because and i agree it is a vicious circle, but in fact you don't make new omelettes unless you do break some eggs, and i think the time has come to break some eggs and i think that's what i'm advocating is that it will come from the teacher because the teacher is the guiding light of what happens in the classroom, and if the teacher has it in the back of their mind there will be no science, then there will be no science.
if, on the other hand, the teacher has it in the back of their mind always to be aware of the possibility of bringing into the work that's going on in the classroom and bringing all they're usually very excellent pedagogic skills to bear on it, aspects of the physical sciences, so that the children can get an early and meaningful introduction to it, then it will happen.
the question is how do you break into the cycle and make that happen, and i think the answer is, as i said, in two ways — one by making teachers more aware during their period of initial training, either at college or at university or polytechnic, and secondly by looking very carefully at the amount and type of in-service training erm that goes on for teachers once they've left college and are in the schools.
essentially what you're saying is that a teacher who's actually teaching you ought to be able to say to that teacher ‘look, here's a package, if you like, that you can insert into your range of skills, and these are of things that you can do with children which are worthwhile doing and fairly easily for you to acquire skills yourself, and they will be very good and helpful for the children’.
well i'd only say that initially erm because then what you end up with is a sort of lucky dip which every now and then somebody will remember the bag of science tricks that somebody's taught them and dip into.
now i think that's better than nothing, but i think one has to take it a stage further than that and say that erm the concepts and the processes in science do build logically one upon the other, in a coherent and meaningful way, and that's important for teachers to appreciate what that meaningful sequence is and that, you know, the lucky dip idea is, as i have said, better than nothing, but it's so much inferior to the notion that teachers should be aware that there is a progression in science and that they can teach children progressively from a very early age onwards and build meaningful knowledge upon meaningful knowledge.
is there anything that parents can do?
christmas is coming up and there are chemistry sets in the shops.
do these make good gifts from a scientific point of view?
well they're a lot of fun and kids love them.
as i commented a little earlier to somebody, i still haven't quite forgiven my mother-in-law for the chemistry set she bought my seven-year-old.
he is absolutely amazed by it and spends lots of time in a garage at the back, which actually means that i spend an awful lot of time in that garage in the cold too!
yes, they are good sets and they do they are exciting for children.
they do enjoy them and they do make good use of them.
quite often they need a lot of erm time spent by the parent with the child, and if the parent's happy with that they're fine.
none of them, or very few of them, if you buy a good quality one is dangerous.
it's very important, i think, that erm you match the age of the child to the age which is written on the box, because then the child will actually be handling materials that he can physically handle and ideas that he can physically cope with or intellectually cope with.
so they are probably very useful erm toys, educational toys, to have in the home, but i think for the child to get the maximum from them they do he often does require an adult with him.
how about electronic kits and circuits?
are they worthwhile, would you say?
yes, they are; they are very much.
again, it's a question of matching the kit to the age of the child because some of them erm — the one we have at home, for example, plugs into the mains and although it only pushes out six or nine volts at the end the child actually does have to plug it in and, well i don't think i'd be happy if my six or seven year old was doing that, although my nine year old could cope with it quite happily.
so they are useful erm children can learn a lot.
what i like about them and where i think their strengths are is that they do put science, the physical sciences, in that bracket of activity which is fun, excitement and leisure and enjoyment and that it moves away from the notion that it's something you do on a wet friday afternoon at school.
thank you very much, mike.
in our series on education we've talked about many aspects of school life, including the extent to which they are open or closed societies and various features of the curriculum.
but so far we haven't said much about schools as organisations.
today i have with me tony bailey from the university; bob glover, who is principal of portslade community college; and john werner, who is head of stanley deason high school.
tony, are schools today very different from the schools of the past?
well i'm not sure i'm a very competent person to answer that question brian, but i hope erm bob and john might move to that.
my research interests are just in schools today.
i think perhaps one difference is they've become much larger and more complicated and i certainly think that parents in particular tend to expect far more of schools now than they used to.
schools are very large and complex organisations.
i mean there are over a thousand people, sometimes two thousand people there, and in this erm complex organisation i think headmasters are very important people; they're responsible for developing a style of organisation which is, i think, very significant.
they influence the education of children in enormously important ways, not just in terms of how many exams they pass, what results they get at o level or c s e, but on important issues such as education for democracy, the kind of climate that schools create for young people is very important in the way they see society and they see their role in it.
so from my point of view it's very important to have contact with head teachers and to talk with them about these things, and to create a situation in which they can talk to each other.
bob, are you erm head teacher in any classical sense, or are you more a manager?
well i think of myself, probably arrogantly, as an educational leader, but that certainly would include management as well as being an academic.
if i can just say something about the management to start off with.
i think sometimes people who don't actually work in schools imagine that the schools are managed, in the financial organisational sense, by the local education authority, and that in some way the head of the school is merely concerned with discipline, curriculum and so on, but one has to bear in mind that the sheer size of some of these schools now makes the head a manager in a very real sense.
i mean i have to cope with about five thousand different individuals each week erm at portslade community college, erm fifteen hundred full-time eleven to eighteen year olds, and the rest adults from the community coming in to use the college.
now if i don't exercise some management skill, and of course more and more recently financial erm acumen as well, one's going to have a situation approaching chaos.
i think the first point to make is erm that schools, and particularly community colleges, are now very complicated places, and it would be quite wrong for a head of an establishment like that to think of himself as an academic in an ivory tower, because if he did erm the organisation would become entangled, the money would run out, and in fact he wouldn't have the kind of institution he wants.
do you have the same views, though, john.
well i agree with what bob has said.
when parents come round the school, what they sometimes say is ‘my goodness we never had all these facilities’, so at a very superficial level you could say that is a big change.
after the war, i suppose, and in the fifties, when schools were seen as places preparing young people for a very different world, different kinds of resources were put in.
one can read about, and see on television, schools which are pioneering and really are genuinely different, but i think they're very much the exception.
and while it's very reassuring that schools haven't changed too much — i don't think we want everything to change overnight — i think you could say that schools are open to the same criticism as of british industry at the moment, that they are institutions which perhaps are changing too slowly for the demands of the modern world.
tony bailey, when he was talking just now, talked in terms of schools perhaps having an element of democracy within them.
is that actually possible in a school?
can a school be a democratic organisation in any real sense?
well i'm probably regarded as being of a point just to the right of ghengis khan on these matters.
erm a great deal is talked about democracy in schools and you very often have all kinds of organisations allegedly which take democratic decisions.
in fact, if anything goes wrong at portslade community college it's my fault, and therefore i'm not going to be in a position where i don't feel able to take responsibility for any decision made.
any true democracy of the sort that you might have in a university, if you do, is really impossible in schools and that one reason because of what the law says, the other reason of course is the age of the people you're dealing with.
in the old days, life was simple in schools in the sense that if pupils didn't do what they were supposed to do you thrashed them, or made them stand in the corner, or expelled them.
how do you actually make pupils do things?
well i think i must take issue with you when you talk about the old days.
erm i doubt if it really was like that come on!
and i think that the question of making people do things, that's something in all societies which doesn't change too much.
there's a question of how much force you use and how much persuasion you use.
i remember when my school opened, or just before it did, erm i got the staff together for a conference for a day, and got another east sussex head, james quinn, who came along and talked to them, and one of the things he said was now for the next week or two, whatever john werner says goes.
if he says stand on your head you will, but after that he's got to do it all by persuasion.
the question of democracy is a very difficult one and it operates on different levels.
on one level you can ask, not so much democracy within the school, but the question of accountability to the community it serves — who should run the school, how much should parents be involved, what's the role of governors?
there's that side of things, and i hope that that is changing, alas again too slowly erm i think the taylor report, which firmly came down on the side of more lay control of schools by parents and members of the community, put up and unanswerable case.
i've never seen it answered, but erm that didn't prevent the professionals from shelving it.
but nevertheless, quietly, the community is getting more and more involved and having a bigger say at that level.
when you come to internal democracy and how much, say, the pupils have, i agree with bob that is a very tricky one and certainly you can't just transplant erm democracy onto what is really a rather authoritarian system, you'd have to prepare and train pupils much more than we do and what i think is the most dangerous thing is playing at democracy which i am sure we should not do in schools.
i think that some people may not realise fully too is that in order to make a decision you have to be full informed, and teachers are very busy people and a teacher really is spending nearly every moment of his day either teaching or preparing to teach, and it's impossible, therefore, to establish in a school or a community college the faculty committee structure that one might have in a university, where people do probably spend some time informing themselves before debate.
erm it's a very great problem.
one would like very often to have more erm people involved in decision making, but they simply don't have the time to inform themselves and one or two experiments in the kind of democracy you might brian might have had in mind, came to horrible grief where decisions were taken simply uninformed and where the small number of people present who were informed weren't able to persuade the majority and the history of education is littered with them most unfortunate examples of this.
i think the approach of parents is very often really quite a simple one erm that they have a number of very well defined expectations of the school and that is as far as one individual parent is concerned, that the parents wants the child to go to the school, he wants that child properly controlled, provided that it's done in the way in which he particularly approves, and if you have fifteen hundred different parents there might be fourteen hundred and eighty five different techniques at work here, and then he wants the child simultaneously to be successful and happy.
and traditionally, i find, british parents tend to erm say on the one hand we'll let the school get on and do their professional job — i find it quite depressing they don't ask for more say in the organisation, but they do demand, quite rightly, the right to criticise when things go wrong.
now this may be because we're on the way from one position to another, or it may be a traditional british approach, but i find this personally a great source of pressure because on the one hand i recognise as a parent myself one's going to have a crucial interest in the education of one's child, on the other hand how one reconciles those hundreds of different philosophies and then superimposes upon it a professional approach is, i suppose, the greatest single source of strain i find running a large secondary school, particularly, as i said before, in the end the responsibility in law is mine.
i would say you could defend the british position because what it seems to me to be based on is first of all the idea that the institution itself should make the decision, and that surely is a democratic start, that you don't lay down a rule from newcastle to john o'groats, or wherever, and that the people in the institution have a certain chemistry together.
what may suit one place won't suit another.
i think secondly erm whichever country, and you do look back to your roots, and we for better or for worse here look back to the great public school headmaster of a century ago and i still think people want that kind of dynamic drive, that entrepreneurial drive, and who's to say they're wrong?
and i think what we're looking for is a kind of situation where everyone can play their proper part in the decision-making, but allow the person with the energy and drive to play their part as well in giving a lead, and i'm not sure that's such a bad thing.
equally, i think we like to set up experiments first before plunging for something, so you have got in countess thorpe , or the stantonbury campus, experiments in a fuller kind of democracy which appear to be very successful if a little controversial.
on the other hand, there are many places which are moving far more cautiously.
but at least people feel secure in those places and move gradually towards something.
so i think we could be too pessimistic about this.
i also feel, brian, we may be avoiding the question that or the part of this question which some of our listeners may be particularly interest in, and bob did touch upon it, which is have things changed much in democracy in the classroom, is there a change?
i think there are some significant ones.
michael marland has talked about the disappearance of deference and i think that's the biggest change really that the kind of instant erm response to authority has gone and that has good and bad sides in it, so more is demanded of the teacher because his authority has to be earned, much more even than in the past i think.
so if you handle it well, we'll move forward.
if we don't learn how to handle that particularly well, we won't, but i think we should assure reassure parents that schools are full of good disciplinarians and that, democracy or no democracy, classrooms are in control.
i think you've always got to be aware too that what goes on in schools does, and should, reflect what's going on out of schools.
one of the things that i think is most unfortunate is that parents sometimes say to their youngsters ‘you need to go to school in order to learn how to behave’.
i would respond with some vigour that they need to go home to learn how to behave, so that the present themselves at school in the situation where we can exercise our professional job of teaching them.
the unfortunately british idea that at school, as well as a place of learning and a place where you grow from a child into an adult, is a kind of military disciplinary academy, i think is most unfortunate.
erm i have two children and i have found that it was quite a full-time job persuading them of the virtue of certain old-fashioned ways of going about things.
i would not, for one moment, pretend erm that it is my job to inculcate those virtues in fifteen hundred.
i hope, though, there are fifteen hundred families in portslade who are doing that job, not for me but for them, so that we can carry out the important educational processes that go on within the college.
and so, parents that may be listening, it sounds as if it's up to you to provide the basic training to enable the schools to do their part.
that's all that we have time for today.
thank you very much, gentlemen.
michael, you're interested in evaluation in education.
what do you mean by evaluation?
well i think of evaluation as the process by which a person or a group of people have a fairly careful look at something they're doing in order to try and decide whether it's going well or badly, whether there are things in it they might wish to improve, and how valuable they think it is whether they might want to make changes in it in any way.
so you're interested in, for example, teaching of subjects such as history or mathematics in schools and the evaluation in a total sense of this?
yes, well i don't particularly limit the area of what i'm interested, but if someone who was particularly interested in seeing how history was going over in this school, then i'd be very happy in discussing with them how they might try and find out how successful history teaching was in that school for example.
or perhaps one might just narrow it a bit further than that and say well let's see how history is going in the first two years, or the o level history course, or something like that, and we would discuss well given that all these different people are involved in history or have a stake in it in some way, or are interested in it, and given that you're only going to have a very limited amount of time to do anything in, how can you do something that would be genuinely useful to the school in looking at the history teaching and something that would have the support of the people involved so that it wasn't threatening anybody but they felt there was something being genuinely helpful.
could you give me an example of one or two erm evaluation exercises you're engaged in at the moment?
well i get involved in it in so many different ways erm this is a difficult one, but one of the things that happens is that a number of teachers, both from the area and elsewhere, erm do advanced courses at the university and as part of these courses we have a unit on evaluation, and for this they will choose some area of their school work which they and their colleagues — and i emphasise that this is something they do have to involve their colleagues back at school in very much — erm feel it would be useful to look at and then they try and discuss with their colleagues what aspects of it are important and significant and what ought to be seen, and they bring this discussion back and we all discuss together there'll be different teachers working on different problems the different ways in which they could approach this problem and how they might most usefully be able to do it and at the end of the exercise they will have found out quite a lot about this particular area of teaching and very often we find that the people they've consulted have themselves got quite interested in it and begun to realize that it's not being done in a way that's there to threaten them, they're not sending a report to the headmaster or the chief education officer or anything like that — it's for the benefit of the people doing the work themselves.
and very often erm discussions take place, changes may happen in the school as a result of this work.
so although they also may submit it to us as part of their assessment for a project, i mean we're at least as interested in the work being useful to the schools and to the students involved.
so that's one major area of involvement.
the other one erm is within the university itself because we do have a support organisation here for teaching within the university, and it is possible for groups of teachers in any part of the university to ask for some help and support in looking at one of the courses they're involved in teaching.
so we get involved quite a lot in looking at teaching in various parts of the university where people want us to, very often involving the students as well as the other teachers in looking at a particular course and seeing if there are ways in which perhaps it might be taught differently or in a way that worked better.
so when you're setting about setting up an evaluation project you consider it very important to get the co-operation of the teachers and staff involved.
i think this absolutely vital because in my mind the object of doing an evaluation is to create some kind of improvement in the situation that is being evaluated.
those i'm not interested in producing reports and publications out of evaluation studies, i'm interested in affecting the situation and affecting it to the mutual satisfaction of the people involved in it, and in fact when we're when i'm working with people on an evaluation, or discussing evaluation in general, one of the major items of our discussion always is how can you consult other people, how can you get them involved?
and i say to them ‘look, don't start planning this whole thing on your own from the beginning, go round and talk to the various people you know that are interested and say to them ‘look, i'm planning to try and do this work, or we agreed at such and such a meeting that i would do this work, but i don't just want to do this on my own, i want to take into account other people's views.
now for example if i'm looking at o level history, what sort of things do you think might be important, or what kinds of evidence do you think i ought to collect, or what issues do you think i ought to take into account?’.
so one tries to build up a kind of agenda of all the things that different people involved think might be important before one tries to produce a plan as to how one's going to work, and even then there may be a chance for you actually to discuss the plan with various people as well.
obviously there is a very delicate balance between erm demanding too much of people's time in consulting and talking with you, and not involving them at all, and you have to be very sensitive to how much time people are prepared to give and how much they want to be involved in something.
but often i find if you ask people these questions they get very interested erm and this interest is important.
if people aren't interested in an evaluation of something that concerns them, then nothing will happen at the end of it.
i mean there's no earthly use doing a beautiful piece of evaluation erm which no-one wants to know about at the end, or publishing something that has no affect.
people have to be involved in something if they're going to want to do something at the end.
i mean if the evaluation suggests that something or other needs changing, then you want people to be already so interested in the evaluation and perhaps looking for useful things to come out of it, that they are already half committed to the changes.
one doesn't want them to sort of follow it blindly, of course, one wants them to discuss it carefully , very carefully, but it has to sort of fit into the ongoing life of the institution and not be a kind of little game that someone is playing on their own somewhere because they happen to be linked with the university or doing a degree or something.
so you're very careful to avoid imposing your own values on the evaluation process?
well i think it is impossible for anyone to totally avoid bringing in their own values into work that they're doing to some extent, but i think it is possible to deliberately set out to involve the values of other people in the way that you carry out the work.
if you do that, then i think that even though your own values are bound to be in it a bit, they won't be in it in a way that makes the work useless or makes it appear hopefully prejudiced to someone else.
you see traditionally people used to think of an evaluation as something that was very convergent and first people gathered lots of evidence, and then they wrote a set of recommendations or conclusions, and you were supposed to agree them or follow them afterwards.
erm unfortunately life isn't really quite as simple as that.
i mean people don't always agree on what evidence means; they don't always agree on what is the best thing to do, erm and i've developed the idea that it's possible to do an evaluation that i like to call divergent in the sense that there might be several different things that one might do as a result of it.
for example, if one has found out something about a course, about what's happening on it, how well the pupils are learning, how interested they are in it and what different members of staff think of its value and so on , then you've got a certain amount of evidence about it.
now the next question is what does this evidence mean and what does one do with it.
now here it depends on people's values, where their educational priorities are, what one might do.
now i'm suggesting that an evaluator might, instead of just concentrating on one set of values, deliberately try and look at several, so they might, for example, identify that there were a group of people who felt that history should be taught in a certain particular way for a certain purpose.
now they could then say well that particular group of people, if they looked at this evidence that i've got, would want to say this about it and they would want to change it in such and such a way, and there's another group of people who perhaps have rather different views on what history might be doing and they would view the evidence and argue about it in this way.
so one might develop two, three, even four different attitudes towards the evidence, according to what one thought was important.
now my feeling is that in doing an evaluation one ought to try and develop each of these different viewpoints, then leave it to the people concerned that have to make the decisions to pick up each of these and to make the decisions, but at least the evaluation itself is not sort of ruling out of court any of the viewpoints that could be important in that situation, so any person who's involved, even if they're in a minority of one, at least feels that his views are there in the evaluation somewhere and they're made legitimate by it.
well he knows that his views may not necessarily be the majority and count in the end, but at least they're being taken into account and being considered to be important.
so i see evaluation as a very democratic activity, which allows people perhaps to appreciate each other 's viewpoints a little more than might otherwise be the case erm and doesn't pretend that people all feel the same about things, but at the same time it doesn't attempt to sort of countermand the realities of the situation that, you know, each person can't go their own sweet way, there have to be quite a lot of collective decisions and people have to recognise where the majority opinion is, but at least they do it from a standpoint that erm where they feel their own value still has some worth and is still being recognised.
if you're involving all those concerned with an evaluation exercise, how can you be objective?
how do you know you are not distorting the situation totally because everyone know they're taking part in an evaluation exercise?
well there are two sides to that.
i mean i think the first is that the kind of evidence one picks up, none of it on its own can be considered, i think, to be totally objective or totally valid, but what it does is it builds up a part of a picture and gradually different sorts of evidence build up a rather more complicated, rather more perhaps accurate picture of a situation, and it's really the cross-checking of different kinds of evidence that in the end gives the thing some kind of validity.
the other aspect of the question you raised is really that do you change a situation by the very fact that you're doing an evaluation?
do people sort of artificially put on their best behaviour, as it were, or something like that, and thereby give a sort of rather distorted impression as to what's really going on.
now obviously this can happen a bit, but i don't think, on the whole it happens very much, at least certainly not in a way that matters erm i don't think it does matter if people change things a little bit, because erm but on the whole people are doing things in the way that they're doing them erm because they've got accustomed to doing them that way and that's the way that they've planned it, and that's the way that it comes out as a result of all of those pressures that there are on them.
most professional people are subject to an enormous range of presses and constraints.
even in a school one has to think of a very large number of different pupils with their own different characteristics and strengths and weaknesses, and one has to operate in a classroom and to a timetable and with given resources, and so on and so forth, and the combination of all these pressures and the ways that one has got used to handling them, on the whole, is what makes a person teach the way they do.
that, combined with their own personality.
and they're not really going to change this very much because someone says well we're involved in an evaluation now.
i don't think it's it's not going to change the situation that much.
supposing you have taken part in an evaluation exercise and some conclusions have been mutually agreed, do you find that on the whole people are prepared to change their habits presumably in some cases habits built up over many years?
ah well that's a difficult question.
i mean there are obviously some aspects of a school's policy that are relatively easily changed.
there are other things that emerge from evaluation that perhaps suggest that at least, not necessarily universally, but for that particular school, with those particular children, with those particular aims, if they want to achieve what they're trying to achieve, then they're going to have to make some rather more or at least some of the people are going to have to make some rather more fundamental changes in the way that they, say, handle children in the classroom, than might otherwise be the case.
now if you get a situation like that i mean the key question is do people actually want to change in this kind of way, or would they at least like to sort of experiment a little bit in the way they handle a group of children?
and this is a very, very difficult thing to do because a teacher, i think, sort of maintains control in a classroom and is able to handle the situation because they've developed working routines over a period of years.
in a sense this is what it is to become and experienced teacher rather than a novice.
one has to develop routines to cope with the situation because it is far too complicated a situation to be handled in any other way.
you just cannot pay attention continuously to all the different variables in a situation and remain sane at the end of the day, you have to develop routines and techniques for handling it.
now if anyone asks if you feel for any sense that perhaps some of these routines have perhaps got a bit of become inappropriate in some way, perhaps because you're teaching a different type of child, or perhaps because you've got rather different educational aims, they've changed for some reason, then it's like asking someone to go back to being a novice again in some senses to change.
now this is a very, very difficult thing to ask anyone to do.
now i think it says a lot for teachers as a profession that i think many of them are in fact prepared to have a go at this.
but it's something that i think someone can only have a go at if they have a great deal of support and a chance to experiment in a way that still gives them the option erm not to change if they feel that they can't handle it any other way erm so i think there are a lot of difficulties associated with this kind of problem.
now i mean i am interested in this problem, and i have been involved in situations where teachers have sought help in trying to change their teaching style in the classroom, but in all these cases this help the initiative has been very much from the teachers themselves and they've wanted to do it, they've wanted to experiment with it and have been given a lot of support and help with it.
but i think i would be giving you the wrong impression if i suggested that most of the evaluation studies with which i've been concerned have involved this kind of conclusion, or this kind of result.
most of them it's been questions of rather less fundamental changes in the actual teaching style in the classroom and sometimes it's been a question of concentrating on rather different kinds of things or giving more time to one kind of activity than another, or changing the pattern of assignments that they gave children, or things that were still well within the capacity of teachers to change without involving sort of fundamental changes in teaching style.
so i wouldn't like to give the impression that there aren't very many improvements that can sometimes be found erm that don't involve that kind of fundamental change, i mean i think there many improvements of that kind.
what about the effect of examinations on creative teaching staff?
don't you come across many teachers who say something along the lines ‘i'd love to try this experiment’, or ‘i'd like to try this in a different way, but i have c s e or o level or a level coming up for my children in a term or a year and i can't possibly afford to do other than cram them for these examinations’.
oh i think many teachers say that an even more parents say it.
erm this is, i think, one of the dilemmas we have in our society at the moment.
in fact one of the things that's most disturbed me about some of the recent discussions that have taken place in the great debate has been that on the one hand people have talked about educating people for adult life and learning more about the way people earn their living, learning more about industry, more about productive things, and on the other hand they've been talking about maintaining standards.
now it's one of those unfortunate things that when people talk about maintaining standards, the only sort of, in an sense, external sort of guidance they've got to go for are things like examination passes.
now i don't think many people realized that asking for the maintenance of standards, rather than perhaps the changing of standards, was asking for something that was almost diametrically opposed to asking for an educational system that was more geared towards preparing children for adult life and productive work.
erm until some of the people who are putting a lot of pressures on schools to do different things are prepared to resolve some of these contradictions, i think the teachers feel that they're being continually criticised by different groups for not doing different things, many of which are mutually contradictory, erm and not surprisingly they feel a little defensive in this situation.
and lastly on the subject of evaluation, a question about the extent to which you think evaluation should take place.
do you think there's enough of it in the educational profession, or do you think that one ought to go in for much more evaluation?
well i think a lot of evaluation does go on.
i mean i think part of being a proper professional means that one does attempt to evaluate what one is doing, and i think that most teachers do do this.
i think that the issue really is erm are there ways in which perhaps they could be helped to do this more productively, and are there ways in which they could be helped to do this rather more collaboratively than perhaps they have done so in the past?
now my concern is not really with trying to erm get outside people or people in universities to sort of be involved in evaluations necessarily, it's with helping people within schools to acquire more skills in the area of evaluation, so that schools, whenever they feel it would be useful to them, have got enough professional expertise among their own members to be able to perhaps rather more the quality of their evaluation and to see that it gets put perhaps to rather more purpose.
in other words to see that they get more benefit for the effort that they put into it.
another aspect of it, i think, is that a lot of evaluation is very intuitive and instinctive.
i think this is rightly so, but there is an advantage to knowing to being slightly more explicit about how you're doing it, and i think that if a lot of the evaluation that already went on in schools became a little bit more explicit and a little bit more open, it would be much easier for people outside the schools to realize the extent at which schools were themselves already engaging in evaluation.
i think a lot of the current concern about schools being accountable is partly because things that in fact are being done are not being seen to be done, and i think if many of the things that we already done were more obviously being seen to be done, and perhaps also thought through rather more carefully as to how they were being done, the public would feel generally erm happier about what was going on in their schools than perhaps they are at the moment.
michael, thank you very much.
ladies and gentlemen, good evening.
it's once again my very pleasant task to welcome you to this, which is the thirty eighth in the series of great centenary lectures, that were inaugurated in this hall in nineteen seventy on a very noteworthy and somewhat stormy occasion.
the lectures are part of a larger programme, designed to bring members of the university and of the local community, to bring them together in serious consideration of great issues, great ideas and great people in the sciences, the humanities and the social sciences.
and looking round the hall tonight, i think i would be inclined to say that this occasion seems to have been successful in doing that.
it is very pleasant to see a full hall on an inclement evening.
and i would like in consequence to offer the very warmest welcome to those of you who are visitors to the university.
i know there are many, and i know that quite a few of you are students in the classes run by the centre for continuing education.
i will not yield to the temptation to reflect on the problems that face this university and the centre for continuing education as part of it, but i think that it's fair to say that in the future we will be hard put to maintain the volume and variety of the contribution we have been trying to make to adult education in the community.
personally, i sincerely hope that we will be able to continue with these open lectures, which i think have been a significant feature of the university's life and of our relationships with the community.
in the meantime, it is very pleasant, and indeed it's salutary, to remind ourselves, as we are doing this evening, of what a university is actually about.
among other things, the examination of the nature and impact of scientific theories and research, and to engage in a re-assessment of the status of these theories and the status of their creators in the light of new knowledge and a new climate of thinking and feeling.
now we had no doubt about the inclusion of charles darwin's centenary in this series at this point; certainly one of the half dozen most influential figures of the modern world, in reshaping our perceptions of ourselves and of the rest of the world.
we couldn't get the centenary of the origin of species into our programme — that was nineteen fifty nine and we hadn't started then — but i did persuade tonight's speaker to deliver one of our early centenary lectures on the subject of darwin's subsequent book, that is the book on the descent of man, which appeared in eighteen seventy one, and i am sure that those of you who were there on that occasion in december eighteen seventy one will remember it as a stimulating and 
lecture.
none of seems to have grown much older 
and i'm certainly show that few of us have grown any wiser in the intervening decade.
in the light of all that, ladies and gentlemen, the choice of a speaker for the charles darwin centenary was not difficult, and indeed i know that he welcomed the opportunity to give this lecture, not least i'm sure because of the controversies and the general noise that have erupted once again over the issues of evolution, both in the academies of the civilized western world, and even in deepest arkensaw 
john maynard-smith is our professor of biology.
he did, in fact, start in an other area of expertise — he took a degree in engineering at the university of cambridge and worked during the war as an aircraft engineer.
i must say that it sheds some light on the state of some of the aircraft that i had to fly in then.
he then entered the university college, london, to study zoology and stayed on to work with a very distinguished man, j b s halldane on the genetics and behaviour of the fruit fly.
in passing i have reflected its natural selection and our god had not created the fruit fly, it would have been necessary for biologists to have invented it.
in nineteen sixty five, which was rather after i came here, he moved to the university of sussex, where he became the first dean of the new school of biological sciences, and that was the beginning of a very distinguished contribution to scientific work in this university.
john is the author of numerous scientific articles and books, including the theory of evolution, which has gone into its third edition — i mean the book.
the evolution of sex and the evolution and theory of games.
i'm delighted that he has accepted the invitation to return after a decade to lecture to us on charles darwin.
john maynard-smith.
just over a year ago, over a thousand biologists gathered at an international meeting in vancouver.
it was, in fact, the second international conference on evolutionary biology, not that it's anything to do with what i'm now saying, but the next one is actually going to be right here in 1985 and that'll be nice.
but anyway, this was the first we have such a conference every five years, but over a thousand of us sat around for a week and talked about evolution, and there was one rather curious fact about vancouver, or the media of vancouver, during that week.
i watched the newspapers with a good deal of interest.
i could discover no mention whatever of the fact that this conference was going on in its city erm but there was one mention of evolution.
there was a full page article announcing darwinism is dead, which turned out as a matter of fact to be a reprint of an article which had appeared some months earlier in the sunday times of this country, erm which in fact was based very largely on some work by a young man called steele, which none of us, i think, believed at the time, and which was since turned out clearly to have been mistaken.
erm it is a little odd that this should have been so.
it illustrates something that those of us who work in the field of evolutionary biology sort of grow to live with, which is that anything which casts doubt on darwin will get a good blow up in the press, on television, and so on.
let me give another very recent example while these rather alarming, in some ways, events were going on in arkensaw, the london times — not the sunday times now — had as a centre page article by a distinguished cosmologist, fred hoyle, announcing to a startled world that he'd suddenly acquired some doubts about evolution.
now the times has never asked me to write a leading article announcing that i have some doubts about the quantum theory 
and i do have such doubts but, being a modest person as you know 
i have always put it down to my ability to understand the subject 
erm but no such modesty erm it's just another illustration of the same thing.
if somebody can be persuaded to say something which is critical of darwin he can get his name in the papers or on the box.
now erm in some ways actually this makes it rather nice to be an evolutionist because it means that people care, you know, people are actually interested in what you're doing and that's fun.
people clearly are interested in what darwin had to say erm and they mind about whether he was right or not, and i think that many people, i dare say many people in this room, have a wish which they may be conscious of and they may not, sometimes quite a strong wish, that he'll turn out to be wrong.
and i think one has to ask themselves why should this be so?
i mean they don't feel that way about quantum theory as far as i know.
but i do — i'm sure it's wrong 
but, you know, i know that that's a personal idiosyncrasy.
i think the reason why it is so is that darwinism is, in essence, a theory about the origin of man — a lot of things as well, but it includes a theory about how we came to be here.
but it's a theory which doesn't give us an special or privileged role or position in this origin.
i mean okay so we're here, but so are elephants and fruit flies and centipedes and tape worms and things erm nothing special about us. erm we're rather successful right now, but we don't play any very special role.
people expect of a theory of origins that in some way or other it gives them some quite privileged and special position, and they feel undermined and threatened by a theory of origin which doesn't say something really rather special about them.
and it's for this reason, i think, that people quite properly are interested in darwin's theory of evolution, are worried about it and so on.
now, having started in that light, i may be going to disappoint you by saying that i'm not in fact going to spend the next erm fifty minutes or so talking about the moral, political, philosophical implications of darwinism.
i mean i could do i think they're fascinating and important — but i would prefer instead actually to talk about darwinism darwin as a biologist, rather than darwin as a philosopher or as a influencer of morals and religious beliefs and so on.
erm and i want, in fact, to ask, you know, is there in fact a challenge to darwinism among scientists today — among serious scientists today, i mean scientists who actually know something about the subject — and the answer to that question is yes there is.
what's the nature of this challenge? erm what's the evidence for and against it?
what's it's likely fate?
of course you will appreciate that i am in no sense unbiased on these matters — i have strong and, i believe, correct opinions on these matters 
which i shall not attempt to conceal from you, but before i come down to the details let me say that darwinism occupies such a central position in evolutionary biology — in biology as a whole, not just in evolutionary biology but in the whole of biology — that any important, new idea in biology has to be, to some extent, judged by its compatibility with, or its contradictions of, the darwinian position.
i mean to give an earlier example, when at the beginning of this century, mendel's laws of genetics were rediscovered and an enormous growth of genetics took place and indeed is still taking place, initially mendelism was seen by it's practitioners and by biologists as a whole as a challenge to darwinism, as an alternative to darwin, and great fights took place for twenty years or so between the darwinians and the mendelians.
i mean in retrospect, looking back on it, it seems crazy — since they were clearly both right, what were they arguing about? erm but it took a lot of time to see that these two sets of views could, in fact, be made compatible as we now think they can be.
well what's the nature, then, of the challenge to darwin today.
there are a number of such challenges, but the interesting and i think significant one comes from a group of palaeontologists, of whom stephen gould, now of eldridge, erm and stephen stanley are probably the best know.
who had stephen gould has asserted that, as a result of the work of this group and others, a new, as he calls it, paradigm of evolutionary biology is in the making and the so-called near-darwinist paradigm in which i was raised, and in which my students are raised i suppose if i'm honest is, you know, due for the dustbin.
erm well, what is it that this new paradigm attacks first of all?
essentially it attacks darwin's view that evolution is in its essence a gradual process.
erm in a very interested book called darwin on man recently by a psychologist called gruber, gruber has argued that darwin had a conviction which could be expressed by saying that things which are natural are necessarily gradual, and things which are sudden are miraculous and not natural, that he had this equation in his mind erm long before he erm became and evolutionist, long before he abandoned his belief in religion which he largely did later, and gruber traces it back, interestingly enough, to the arguments of a theologian, sumner, who later became an archbishop, who darwin took notes on his ideas when he was a student at cambridge erm which are still extent, and what sumner had argued, among other things, was that a good argument for believing in the divinity of christ, that christ was divine rather than simply being a gifted teacher, was the suddenness with which the beliefs of the ancient world were transformed by christ's teaching.
now darwin got from this this idea that somehow sudden things are miraculous, are natural, erm but admittedly they may happen but i mean there is a miraculous element about sudden things, whereas things that are natural should happen gradually, and he retained this view in spite of changing his ideas about all sorts of other things, and let us now see why the gradualism was so important a component of his theory of evolution.
i mean we're all, i'm sure, basically family with what darwin's theory of evolution is, and i don't really want to labour you by reminding you of it, but i think it's important to appreciate first of all what his problem was erm and i think that it's fair to say that for darwin the problem was that as a naturalist he was aware of the fact that animals and plants are adapted to a quite extraordinary degree to their particular ways of life, and indeed many of his books on orchids and earthworms and so on have a great deal to say about the details of these adaptations.
his explanation of adaptation in a sense was that it occurred as a result, as he said, of the natural selection of variations which were in their origin non-adapted in some sense, random.
and he felt that it would be in a sense a miracle to produce a detailed adaptation to a particular way of life, a kind of adaptation to being fertilized by bees that you see in an orchid, by a single a large jump.
if i can use erm an analogy of my own rather than of his, to produce erm a detailed adaptation of an organism to a specific way of life, if only large steps, large mutational changes were possible, would be a little like trying a surgeon trying to remove erm an appendix with a scalpel mounted on some kind of trolley clamp with the rule that he couldn't move it less than a foot at a time.
i mean he might occasionally want to move it a foot, but there would be no way he'd be able to make the nice adjustments in that way.
erm let me introduce you to — perhaps in a rather more quantitative way — let me introduce what is the sort of hoariest paradox about evolution.
it's one that, you know, comes up year after year.
it is indeed actually the paradox that fred hoyle has just rediscovered erm which is for those of us who have been teaching it to our undergraduates for thirty years.
but the paradox goes like this — i mean any form of it is as follows: proteins, as most of you know, are strings of amino acids and we make a whole series of quite specific proteins.
imagine a rather short one, a small one, a hundred amino acids long.
there are twenty possible kinds of amino acid, so the number of different proteins a hundred amino acids long is twenty raised to the power of a hundred.
now that is a fairly large number.
somebody calculated that if the surface of the earth was covered with a layer of protein molecules a metre thick, right over the whole surface of the earth erm each one, each protein different from every other one, and let us suppose furthermore that each of these proteins had been changing once as second, uniquely, into some different kind ever since the formation of the earth, we would still have tried out only quite a small fraction of the available possible proteins a hundred amino acids long.
you know 
erm the paradox then says how can evolution possibly lead by natural selection to the selection of just that protein which best performs some function if, just by a random process of mutation it might never happen in the first place.
that's the paradox.
the answer is, of course, that that's not the way it happens.
any old string of amino acids a hundred amino acids long will have some kind of enzymic activity pretty well, or at least a very great many of them will.
if you just make random proteins a hundred amino acids they have some kind of catalytic activity — not much, but some.
we think evolution took place not by sort of hitting in one bang the right answer — that would be like the surgeon moving his scalpel a foot and hitting the right point, but by successive changes, changing one amino acid at a time, each change being a slight improvement on what was there before.
and then if you do the sums there's no difficulty whatsoever in imagining the evolution of a specific optimal protein, one amino acid at a time, not in millions of years but even in thousands of years — it's not a serious mathematical problem.
but it's essentially, therefore, that natural selection is only going to produce adaptations if it can do so gradually, that's basically the guts of darwin's position.
erm now what then is the position what is the nature of the criticism or the claims being made by the group of palaeontologists whom i'm going to refer to, for reasons that will become apparent, as the punctuations — because i mean they would call themselves punctuations.
in effect, they are making two claims, one of which i want to call the minor and the major claim, which are not logically necessarily following one from the other.
the minor claim is simply that if you it's an empirical claim it says if you look at the fossil record, and you look in detail at the changes in the fossils, what you observe is not continuous steady change, but you see what they call stasis — that is nothing much happening for long periods of time, perhaps for millions of years, and then rather suddenly changes taking place.
erm whether that's true or not, i'll discuss the data on that in a moment, but that's a claim about what you actually see if you look at the fossil record.
stasis and then sudden change, which for reasons which do slightly defeat me, are called punctuational changes.
the major claim is a claim which has been expressed as the claim of de-coupling.
the claim is that because of this feature of the fossil record the major features of evolution, the sort of trends that you see over hundreds of millions of years, are not merely a kind of adding together of the changes which go on by natural selection within populations and which we can study today, but that some quite different kind of process must be responsible for the major features of evolution, other than natural selection of variants within populations.
erm that then is the minor and the major claim being made erm let's now discuss whether there's any evidence for it erm or any evidence against it.
erm let me consider first of all the minor claim, and here i think it's only fair to tell you that i'm not a palaeotologist.
what i know about palaeotology isn't too much i mean i obviously have to try and know a bit, but it's not my field — erm in order to test the minor claim, you have to be able to get your hands on some rock which actually consists of continuous sedimentation over long periods of time.
you don't want a bit of sedimentation and then a gap when nothing was being laid down and then a bit more being sedimented, because, you know, you don't know then whether the jumps you see in the record are simply there because there was a gap in deposition, or whether they really reflect the sudden change in the population.
erm the best candidate for that kind of deposit are deep see cores — i mean there's a continuous rain of stuff falling from the surface of the sea to the bottom of the sea and forming a great sort of ooze on the bottom and gradually compacting down into rock — cores of this stuff are now available and palaeontologists can look and see what happens.
the fossils that they can see in such cores are mainly the fossils of single celled organisms, radiolarians,blobigurina , things of that kind, and the data i've seen published on this actually are pretty gradualist in their interpretation.
changes do seem to occur remarkably steadily.
they don't occur at a uniform rate, but there's nothing in darwinism which implies that they should, but i was looking at some data on radiolarians recently in which about every sixty thousand years there's a population sample — i mean you can estimate and see the rate at which this stuff is building up — and in no occasion in a period of sixty thousand years did the population change by more than about half a standard deviation.
now that's the kind of change that you can produce in the lab in five generations by artificial selection.
so even the most rapid changes in these things were going very, very slowly compared with the kinds of rates which we're accustomed to seeing in the lab. erm so on the whole so far deep sea cores seem to me to suggest that really at least those beauties are really pretty gradualistic in their behaviour.
let me now describe some work erm which points the other way.
it's work i have some familiarity with because by accident i happened to be the external examiner of the lad who did it, peter williamson.
it's an admirable and exciting piece of work, i think, although i don't, and i must make this clear, altogether share peter williamson's interpretation of his own data.
but what he has done has been to study twenty one species of freshwater molluscs — that means snails, clams, things of that kind from the lake tocarno region of africa.
the reason why people are willing to spend money and time looking at the geology of lake tocarno of course is that some of our ancestors are lying around in the rocks and people are therefore very keen on getting accurate dating of the fossils and one way of doing that is to get erm accurate datings of changes in other fossils that you can co-ordinate with them.
williamson's got five million years of more or less continuous deposit, which he can date pretty accurately erm and he's got twenty one species of mollusc fossilised in that material.
erm he, although it's twenty one, fifteen do really damn all.
i mean they are more or less the same at the end as they were at the beginning.
you certainly wouldn't want to put them in a different species, at least as far as you can judge from their shells.
of course that's all you can see.
and they certainly demonstrate .
the other six species erm all simultaneously show at one point in the record really rather sudden change.
what seems to have happened is that at that moment the water table in the rift valley fell, lake tocarno became isolated from the rest of the rift.
probably conditions in the lake changed, which is reasonable that they should have done.
anyway, whether that's the reason or not, over a depth of about a metre of deposit there is really quite rapid changes in these populations.
erm at the end of a metre is difficult to be sure, but it's somewhere between ten thousand years and fifty thousand years in these deposits, to give you a rough idea of the kind of length of time we're talking about.
and at the end of that fifty thousand years, if that's what it is, the populations are sufficiently different that i'd think you'd want to put them into a different species if — i mean how are you to know, but i mean it's a reasonable judgement.
erm then they stopped changing.
a little later erm the erm level of the lake rose again, became continuous with the rest of the rift, and almost instantaneously these new forms disappear and are replaced by the original form.
all that means is that the original form was present in the rest of the rift valley during this period, never went extinct, and has now come into the lake again and has either made extinct, or in some other way swamped out the local form.
now this is a very clear case of punctuation.
nothing happening and then something happening, really pretty rapidly.
so it's admirable evidence for what i call the minor claim of the punctuationalist school, of the empirical claim.
it doesn't prove that it's always true, but it's a jolly good case where it clearly, i think, is true.
erm i cannot see, and this is where i part company with peter williamson to some extent, i cannot see any reason why his data should be regarded as showing that when the sudden change did take place it took place for any reason other than natural selection within a single population.
it's important that, for those of you sort of who are more into the sort of detailed arguments that are going on, it's significant that whatever else was the case, this did not happen as a result of a single major mutation which was then established by selection, because williamson's got lots of intermediate populations.
he's got the original population, then he's got a whole series of intermediates, then he's got an end population, so there is nothing there are no hopeful monsters about.
i'll talk about monsters in a minute.
secondly, there's no reason to suppose it happened in a small population.
indeed it cannot have done if he can lay his hands on enough fossils just in a single surface exposure erm to be able to erm measure the properties of populations, it's clear there must have been millions of specimens of these beasts present at any one time in the lake.
so we're not talking about small population either.
so it seems to me that what williamson has shown in one particular case is clear evidence of punctuation, but no reasons at all that i can see for supposing that the mechanism of change was any other which darwin described over a hundred years ago.
erm just a word or two about the erm question of erm changes of rate and what was darwin's attitude himself towards this issue.
erm darwin says in the origin, and i'm sorry i can't read it to you, but i was desperately looking for the quotation in the origin before i can and i couldn't find it but i assure you it's there erm in which he remarks that in all probability the periods of time during which species are not changing is probably very large compared with those periods when change is taking place.
in other words, hopefully,expects punctuation to be the case anyway.
so there's particularly undarwinian about this finding.
erm what would be undarwinian would be if there was, so to speak, a sudden break between one species and another, without any intermediate having existed.
erm now the strongest reason, i think, for believing that that is not the case is that it doesn't come from the fossil record, it comes simply from looking at organisms today.
if you look at sexually reproducing organisms, and you don't move about too much — erm i mean you just sit in sussex and look at the birds — then by and large you don't have any doubt at all to what species any particular belongs.
i mean blue tits is blue tits and great tits is great tits and you don't see any intermediates.
erm so species are, in a sense, real things out there, they're not an artefact of taxonomists who've tried to force some classification onto organisms which don't really have that nature.
if, on the other hand, you travel about this ceases to be true.
it ceases to be true of the great tit as a matter of fact, because if you follow populations of the great tits westward across europe, the middle east and northern india into southern china, they gradually change and become smaller and darker.
if, instead of following them that way you follow them a bit further north and follow them north of the himalayas, then get smaller and greyer and paler, and the two ends of the loop meet in china and behave as distinct species.
they don't hybridize.
i mean if one was talking about great tits in china, you'd have to say there are two kinds of great tits.
so you've got a continuous series of forms erm but at the ends of the ring the erm two species are behaving as good species and as distinct, and at what point could you say there's been a sudden break.
well clearly at no point.
in case this surprises you, and i'm sure it doesn't surprise those of you who are biologists, we have in britain two terminal links with such a chain, which we would never regard as anything other than perfectly good species.
those are the herring gull and the lesser black-backed gull, which are two terminal links in a series of forms which sort of form a ring around the pole.
so, geographical variation doesn't lead one to have any kind of impression that the boundaries between species are sharp and distinct if you move about.
if you stay in the same place then the whole process of sexual reproduction means that indeed there are uniform populations which are hybridizing with one another and then barriers to other hybridizing population, but not if you move about.
and one of the most ironic features of the present debate as a matter of fact is that steve gould, who's been the most vocal exponent of the punctuationist view, and indeed of the view that there's something really quite special about the specification of them, his own field work is concerned with a mollusc snail called serin erm from the west indies, which, when it was first described by anatomists, was classified into several genera and several hundreds of different species.
that's what you'd think about it if you look at it as a piece of morphology, the shell shape — it turns out to be all one species with gene flow, hybridization right across the lot.
now how a man who works on can think there's anything funny about species i just can't understand erm but there it is. erm well, suppose, however, that in my view wrongly one did suppose that there was something erm in this sort of idea of the decoupling between the processes which we observed in single populations and erm the sort of mechanisms leading to large scale evolution, what kinds of processes are held to be important when it comes to large scale evolution events?
well i want, very briefly, to mention three.
and first i want to discuss this idea of hopeful monsters, which is a phrase which goes back to richard goldsmith, the geneticist, who argued that occasionally a single — well he was vague about what kind of mutation he had in mind, because he had really rather odd ideas about what genes were and so on but he held occasionally that some genetic change gave rise in some sense in a single dialectical leap to organisms strikingly different from their parents and that speciation consisted of the establishment of such hopeful monsters or macro mutations.
he didn't say all large mutations were hopeful, but that just occasionally one would be.
erm i must confess i've always had rather a soft spot for macro mutations, i don't know why, it may have had something to do with goldsmith's prose, which is sort of rather moving when you get into it, erm and partly, and this is an interesting comment as an aside, that i knew as an undergraduate that to argue in favour of goldsmith would make my teachers in general, and professor j b s halldane in particular , exceedingly angry and making one's teachers angry is, after all, one of the activities into which undergraduates should occasionally go.
so i used to support goldsmith's views, perhaps rather more strongly than i actually should of done.
anyway, i've always had a soft spot for this, there's no problem about the existence of large morphological changes due to a single mutation.
i mean any visit to a gesopholar laboratory will persuade you some very, very striking differences, you know, like having four wings instead of two, or even four legs instead of six i've had in the lab — you know, really quite striking differences can be due to a single mendelising gene, no problem about that.
the question at issue is not whether macro mutations take place, but whether they form the basis of evolutionary novelties erm and that's an empirical question which is not easy to answer.
it seems fairly clear, for example, that in domestic animals macro mutations of this kind have quite often been made the basis of new breeds of dogs or of cattle and things of that kind.
i'm thinking of polled cattle or dogs with very, very short muzzles or dwarf legs and so on.
what tends to happen is you pick up a large mutation and then you modify it further, further modifying selection.
so there's nothing erm sorry,i mean, i wouldn't regard erm, you know, the acceptance of hopeful monsters in any sense as an occasional event in evolution is any sense particularly strange.
the question is does it actually happen?
and that's, of course, very hard to decide.
the only way i can think of, or i think as far as anyone else can think of, deciding whether it has in fact been important in speciation, is to look for pairs of closely related species which differ in some striking morphological trait, but are still sufficiently similar genetically for you to be able to carry out a genetic analysis, i.e. to cross them, to get offspring, to get f two's and it's then possible, it's obviously not — i'm not going to explain the details of the technique to you now — but it's possible to work out whether the difference is due largely, or in part, to some single large gene, or whether it's on the whole due to quite a lot of small ones.
and when species differ in colour pattern, for example, it not at all infrequently turns out that it's just one gene, or perhaps a couple erm i mean trituris marmaratis , which is rather a nice green newt,christatus , which is rather a nice black and yellow spotted newt, you can hybridize them and the difference is due to a single gene as far as the colour is concerned gene.
but when you're thinking about an morphological traits, shapes, characters and so on, what evidence we have — and it's nothing like enough, it would be nice to have more — what evidence we have suggests that, as a matter of fact, the differences are not due to hopeful monsters.
the nice investigation recently of a erm pair of species of gesophola , these are hawaiian gesophola , in which one species, the males, have sort of eyes like crabs stuck out almost on stalks.
i don't want you to imagine a great big long stalk, you know, but i mean they really do have a big projection from the side of the head in gesophola hetroinura , whereas in the known ancestor of that,gesopholis ulvestris , it's head is just the same shape as any other sensible fruit fly.
erm you can hybridize these two, you can second generations, backcrosses and so on, the analysis has been made, and we know that there isn't a single large gene producing that effect — we know that there are quite a number of genes of reasonably small effect, we don't know exactly how many but certainly it doesn't look like a hopeful monster.
but of course one case doesn't prove anything; we'd like more.
erm secondly, i want to say just a word about an idea that gould, in particular, and stanley had been fond of, namely the idea of species selection.
erm the idea of species selection is basically this.
the idea is that species originate by the sudden events, whatever they may be, and they have new characteristics, which randomly related to the characteristics of their ancestral species.
erm they're rather like sort of mutations are randomly related to the gene from which the mutation took place, but now we're talking about a whole species suddenly arising with a new randomly arranged set of traits, and then the wholesale direction of evolution erm is determined by selection favouring some species in competition with other species.
so the unit of evolution ceases to be the individual who survives and reproduces in competition with another individual that becomes a species as a whole which survives in competition with other species.
erm i think that this is unlikely both on quantisation and actually also on curiously enough actually on logical grounds.
let's consider first of all the quantitative ground, erm and let's talk about one of the major transitions, one of the major origins about which we have some information, and that is the origin of the mammals from the reptiles. erm we have quite a lot of fossils erm erm from the permian up to the triassic erm of mammals and their reptilian ancestors, and we know pretty well what went on.
erm some of the changes that took place were concerned with learning to chew.
you see mammals can chew and reptiles can't, erm we can chump away, you know? erm and let me just list some of the changes that took place which help us to chew.
the most critical one in some ways is a change in the structure of our lower jaw, so instead of having a lot of bones in our lower jaw we have just a single bone in our lower jaw, the dentory , which articulates with a bone called the scremosal , whereas in reptiles the quadrate and articular for the articulation and those bones have now got stuck into our inner ear and do some stuff about conducting sound impulses.
and one can follow those changes step by step through the fossil record erm including some rather nice fossils we now have which have both jaw articulations in parallel.
they have both the reptilian one and the mammalian one, both sort of functional.
erm at the same time, the bones on the side of the skull got sort of gradually disappeared, so that when you clench your jaws there's got somewhere for the muscles out to bulge out to, supposing you've got big muscles.
then, very important for people like me, we developed a secondary palette, who's function is to allow you to eat and talk at the same time 
but it also enables to you to eat and breathe at the same time.
you see you can't go chewing away, it unless you've got a bony ridge between the bit you're chewing and where the air pipe is, which a reptile doesn't have — most reptiles don't, crocodiles do.
then we evolved a single tooth replacement, so that first of all you have milk teeth and then you have adult teeth, instead of them dropping out all the time.
that's bad when you run out of teeth, like me, but 
but it's erm it does mean that you can, so to speak, design your teeth as a sort of decent engineering job and make them fit with one another and slide over one another and grind and so on.
so, along with single tooth replacement, you get differentiation of the tooth rap , so that you get canines and incisors and molars and all sorts of different nicely and complicated teeth.
then there are a lot of changes that went place took place in locomotion. erm mammals, in other words, learnt to gallop and their elbows rotated backwards and their knees rotated forwards.
their backbone changed so that it would bend in a vertical plane erm the limb girdles changes and a whole number of other things changed associated with locomotion.
then a number of things we can't follow in the fossil record, but we know must have happened.
they became homoiothermic, erm warm blooded, the developed hair and so on.
they developed a double circulation — they changed the method of circulating the blood round the body.
erm some of us, but not all of us, started lactating 
and feeding our young that way, and some of us but again not all of us, became volviferous and actually brought forth our young alive.
all those changes must have been happening in parallel with these other ones.
now that's a lot of changes.
if you try to do the sums and ask could you do all those changes simply by sort of species going one way and the other relative to these changes erm in their origins and then those species which happen to be in the right direction being selection by some kind of species selection, i think the answer is you just can't make the sums add up right.
i mean there just weren't enough species extinctions to enable you to produce that number of changes and a number of independent traits in that length of time.
quantitative arguments of that kind are always hard to pin down solidly, but i don't think it's numerically plausible that you could produce a set of changes of that kind by species selection.
also, it sort of there's something wrong with it logically.
ask yourself who chews, who gallops?
a species does not chew or gallop.
the species horse doesn't chew or gallop or jump or bring forth its young alive.
individual horses chew, gallop, etc.
if anybody if anything survives because it can chew better or gallop better or bring forth it's young alive or has a better circulation, it's not the species.
i mean it's the individual animals that have these properties are the ones that survive.
i mean there is a real sense in which species selection just doesn't make sense in this kind of context.
now, as a matter fact i do think that there are contexts in which species selection does make sense.
i mean let me mention one — the chairman mentioned that i was a rash enough to write a book on the evolution of sex.
now one of the things that sex one of the consequences of sex is that a population which reproduces sexually can evolve more rapidly than a population erm which reproduces asexually.
now that trait could well be favoured by species selection, because what is it that evolves — individuals do not evolve — we are born and we die, but we don't evolve.
populations and species evolve.
so sex and the capacity to evolve rapidly is a property of the species, not of an individual erm and consequently once can visualize erm species selection being responsible for it's evolution, so i don't actually have much taste for species selection.
i can't see the point.
the last set of ideas which i want to discuss, which is not which are only partly related as a matter of fact to the erm ideas of the punctuationists, are the ideas, which, as a matter of fact my colleagues here brian goodwin and gerry webster have been particularly clear and eloquent advocates, which say in effect that if you really want to understand evolution, merely thinking about the adaptation of organisms to some kind of environment is not really an adequate way of thinking about it, because when you look at organisms, look at vertebrates for example, you'll find an astonishing range of kinds of ways of life.
they have an underlying community of pattern.
erm the i mean we have a pentadactyl limb, whether we climb or run or fly or swim, you can recognise an obvious deep anatomical resemblance between the limbs of organisms behaving as differently as that, and therefore that if we really want to understand evolution we have to understand these erm, i don't know whether one wants to call them plans or archetypes, or structures, call them what you will.
and the theory of evolution which doesn't properly understand the nature of these structures is really a jolly incomplete theory.
now, let me say there's one component of what brian and gerry have been saying, which i most passionately agree with as it happens — get that bit off my chest first — and that is that until we have a clear understanding of the mechanisms and processes of development, the processes whereby an egg turns into an adult, our theory of evolution will, indeed, be very imperfect, and we do not have such a theory, erm it's exceedingly important that we should work on such a theory, and such a theory it isn't sufficient simply to say ‘oh well, there's a genetic programme for development’ and imagine that in other ways actually said something, because you actually haven't.
you haven't said anything very useful anyhow.
erm however, what about these ? erm let me read you what darwin had to say erm about and this in fact is erm erm the end of chapter six of the origin of species.
he wrote ‘it is generally acknowledged that all organic beings have been formed on two great lines, unity of type and the conditions of existence.
by unity of type is meant that fundamental agreement in structure which we see in organic beings of the same class, and which is quite independent of their habits of life.
on my theory, unity of type is explained by unity of dissent.
the expression of conditions of existence, so often insisted on by the illustrious cuvier, is fully embraced by the principle of natural selection.
for natural selection acts by either now adapting the various parts of each being to its conditions of life, or by having adapted them during long past periods of time’.
and he finishes ‘hence, in fact, the law of the conditions of existence is the higher law, as it includes, through the inheritance of former adaptations, that of unity of type’.
now it's jolly difficult to follow an argument of that time when it's read — i appreciate that — but what i think darwin is actually saying is this, that it's true that vertebrates, for example— all vertebrates, from fish to ourselves — have a common pattern of a rigid rod down the middle of the back, segmented muscles either side of it, a mouth at the front, a hollow nerve chord on top, two pairs of fins or legs derived from them, but not three pairs or one pair, but two pairs and so on .
it's true that that is a common feature really from the time of for the last five hundred million years, from the time of the earliest fish to ourselves and to the birds and everybody else, but it's like that not because there is some kind of profound law of form, which says that's the kind of organism which is in permitted by the laws of development to arise, erm i mean the law form would be something like erm a law of physics which says that if objects move round the sun they're going to do so in ellipses with the sun at one focus.
that's a kind of law of the form of movement of planets.
now, could there be comparable laws which say certain kinds of organisms are possible? erm and among those possible kinds of organisms are organisms built on this vertebrae pattern.
and there are other kinds of organisms which really just aren't possible, and that's why you don't find them.
darwin's in effect in this passage is saying no, i don't think that's so at all, i think that this common pattern that all vertebrates have is simple the adaptive features of the common ancestor of the vertebrates, and i think he's got a jolly good case.
i mean why do you want to have a rigid rod down the middle of your back and segmented muscles down either side?
well every biologist knows why you want to do that, it's so you can swim sinusoidally like a fish.
you may say i don't swim sinusoidally like a fish — you're quite right, but it's not why you have them, it's why your ancestors had them.
and you may say well why do i have two pairs of fins, you know, one in front and one behind, instead of, say, three pairs of fins, or one pair of fins, or eight pairs of fins — why do we all have two?
again perfectly good adaptive reasons — they have two pairs of fins for the same reason that sensible aeroplanes, i.e. the aeroplanes that i used to design before people went crazy, have a wing in the front and a tailplane behind, and basically they do so because two surfaces — one in front of the other like that — is the minimum number of surfaces needed if you want to produce a vertical force through any point along your body.
you can't do it with one, it's too few, and you don't need three, so you do it with two.
erm to go to another famous bio-plan, i pondered for a time about why does the bio-plan of insects insist on having six legs, after all we don't have six legs, why do insects have six legs?
well, the reason why they have six legs, if you think about it, is exceedingly simple, and it's again a perfectly good adaptive reason.
it's nothing to do with laws of form.
it's simply that six legs is the smallest number of legs you can have such that you can take exactly half of them off the ground and not fall over.
and if you look at an insect walking, that's exactly what it does.
it's not clever like us, falling over all the time.
i mean when we're walking we are actually falling the whole time, but insects are not like that, they don't stand on three and pick up the other three.
when i first thought of that i suddenly got in an absolute panic — nothing to do with darwin, but, you know never mind — and i thought what about those erm , preying mantises and things, which who have adopted their front legs for sort of seizing prey like that they've even got four legs to walk on — what do the poor things do?
so i went rushing round to a friend of mine who fortunately had some and i said i want to see your walking, and i was much comforted to discover that they do actually use all six legs.
they walk on their knees and the front legs like this, so they stand on a knee and then those two legs, and then that knee and these two legs, so they 
the basic point i am making is i, you know, and this is quite unfair.
next week we must have brian or gerry telling you why i'm wrong and they'd be as persuasive, or more persuasive than i'm being, but i can't see the case for such a thing as a law of form.
i think that animal forms could be almost infinitely varied and the actual forms you see are the forms which darwin led us to see, namely the forms which are adapted to particular and specific ways of life.
of course it leaves a problem unsolved.
it leaves it unsolved, but all right, given that our ancestors had this because they wanted to swim sinusoidally and eat, you know, filter feed and do things like that, we don't swim sinusoidally and filter feed why on earth do we are we so conservative?
and i've no doubt at all that the answer to that question has to lie in an understanding of the mechanics of development.
if it wasn't that we had to develop from an egg in every generation, i don't think that kind of conservatism would be observed.
so i do think the development at that level has something pretty profound to say.
erm i'm conscious of the fact that i've been going on for perhaps too long and i may not have said quite enough about darwin, but let me just finish by saying this that it's not possible today, i believe, to discuss any important problem in biology without darwin's thought being absolutely central to what you're saying all the time.
i mean biologists , when they're talking to one another, are, by and large , talking about darwin and that's what i've been trying to do.
well, ladies and gentlemen, i think you'll agree that some of john maynard-smith's early engineering training showed through, as it were, in reverse order, if that's not too heretical a statement to make in this context, in the gentle good natured demolition job that he did on the main current critical attacks on darwin's mechanism, and particularly on the rhythms of change that darwin adumbrated within his own time scale.
i think that with john maynard-smith around — and i hope he'll be around for some time yet in the university of sussex, and i hope the university of sussex will be too 
in these circumstances i think that darwin can rest quietly in his grave, that is to say of the acidulous palaeontologists haven't already been trying to dig him up to prove something.
as john maynard-smith knows, i've always been, in a less expert way than he, a darwinist and i've always felt, and you exemplified that tonight, i think, john, the beauty if the situation was that these profound theories corresponded with what a man of good sense, rationality, unswayed by prejudice and emotion, would be bound to belief when faced with the evidence.
and i think as far as the critics are concerned, john maynard-smith may allow me to adapt erm the critical misjudgement of all time, which was made by a dublin professor when the origin of species first came out, which you will remember no doubt 
when she said when she said that what was new in the theory was false, and what was true was old.
i think that john has suggested that much of what the critics are now getting up to, where it's new it's false, and where it is true, it's already subsumed in darwin's theory as modified by john maynard-smith.
thank you very much, john.
hello.
we're always being told that what this country needs is more scientists, but often something seems to go wrong at school.
when children are thirteen or fourteen instead of being excited and stimulated by subjects such as physics and chemistry, they're bored by them, and many of the brightest minds turn away to history or english, the arts and humanities.
sandy grassie is physicist at the university — an enthusiast who likes to share his keen sense of adventure in physics with young people.
sandy, tell me about your physics master classes for young people.
well to a certain extent these are a development of master classes that were running in mathematics across the country.
the royal institution had tried this and they would have a set of saturday mornings where they had mathematicians talking to children of about thirteen or fourteen.
they felt it would be a good idea if they extended these ideas to the subject of physics, and we were asked at the university to try for the very first time to run a set of these master classes for children aged thirteen to fourteen in physics, to see if we could transmit some of the excitement and pleasure of doing physics to children at that crucial stage in their scientific development in schools.
where do the children come from?
the children come from east and west sussex, although to my astonishment there's one who comes from the far reaches of west sussex, right away over erm the other side of chichester.
she travels in every saturday morning.
the parents bring her in, and the catchment are horsham, worth abbey, crawley, oldbourne.
going eastwards into east sussex, not so far out, mainly lewes, newhaven, brighton area.
and they are put forward by the schools themselves?
they are put forward by the schools through the local authorities, except that of course there are a large number of independent schools in east and west sussex, and these schools have i wrote to these ones asking if they had any children that they wanted to nominate.
roughly speaking, there are thirty six children in the class — what is it, it's thirteenish from east sussex, thirteenish from west sussex and nine from the independent sector spread across the county.
and what are you trying to do with these children?
quite simply, give them an exciting perspective of what the ideas of physics are.
we're trying to do things which on many occasions we're actually doing things which are done at university with them, in a simplified form, of course, but just to give them this perspective, this view of physics.
it happens that what we've done is we've taken it and hung it on the starlight, the magic of starlight — how wonderful it is, how much you can tell from just looking at a star through a telescope and measuring the light that comes out of it, and this takes us into realms of why a star shines; what do you mean by time when you go back millions of years into the universe lifetime; what do you mean, why do stars shine with different colours.
these kinds of things.
it's not an obvious cumulative line through o level, it's more an impression of probably things that they will come across over the next seven years just to transmit the fun and the excitement.
they get lectures each saturday morning?
every saturday morning there's a lecture, yes, a lecture which is given by a member of the university faculty, one of my colleagues.
a rather unusual lecture, because in devising these lectures we've actually worked with local school teachers in working out what we can say to these thirteen to fourteen year old kids, because of course in university circles usually one's dealing with pupils, students, eighteen, nineteen, twenty and post-graduates.
we haven't that much experience of working with thirteen to fourteen year olds, so we have been collaborating closely with the teachers in devising what could go into each lecture.
they do practical work?
experiments?
they do experiments, not experiments to find out about things, but experiments to demonstrate things.
they're not really finding out about the uttermost regions of the hydrogen atom.
what we're doing is showing them the colour of light, the hydrogen spectrum that's given off and asking them to make some measurements on it which give a clue to the nature of what is happening in hydrogen.
they are experiments, for instance, that our undergraduates do in their first year here, tailored down very, very severely to act as demonstration experiments for these children.
how could these children possibly do undergraduate experiments at the age of thirteen?
well from the hubbub when they're doing it, they're obviously enjoying it.
handling apparatus, that's also fun.
handling apparatus is good fun for them — unusual apparatus, doing the experiments, taking readings, plotting graphs is fun.
we have written very carefully descriptive material of what is really happening in the experiment and then a very succinct set of instructions — do this, do that, turn the left hand knob.
of course that isn't all that's involved in doing physics, not at all— there are other aspects of actually having ideas about physics, but in the time they will see some pattern emerging within that experiment.
they're not doing it on their own, they're doing it in groups of three on each experiment — three people will be arguing, working together on one experiment.
there will be around in the room when they're doing this any six research students who have experience with the equipment, and a lecturer, and the school teacher who was involved in planning that day's work.
you set the a great egg race type topic to work on for three weeks.
how did that work out?
well it was great fun.
we certainly set it because if the kids do spend all their time doing these demonstration experiments they're sure to get bored — life is like that.
the great egg race experiment was something to break into the midlands, something to ask them to have opinions about puzzles, because there's an awful lot of science in schools which precludes you from having an opinion.
you carry on learning, and somewhere somebody knows the answer to it so you learn how they go the answer to it, and then perhaps later on you have a chance to have an opinion in science.
we thought it would be a good idea to give them a chance straight off to have an opinion, and we set them a nice problem, which was that they put a marble into something and another marble comes out thirty seconds later.
they had a large box of miscellaneous bit and pieces of sticky tape and straws and wood and drawing pins and all sorts of things, and we essentially just left them for two weeks to do this — and they came up with some superb ideas.
there was some problem that one of them went back and talked to, presumably dad, perhaps mum though, erm and came back with a lovely engineered solution, but that didn't matter — they had fun doing it and they had fun trying these things and, believe me, the answer were ever so close to what the design i was amazed with what they produced.
yes, i was there erm and saw them working, and i think you were looking fairly amazed that the answer came out to be almost the correct answer on several occasions, with quite different bits of apparatus.
quite, it's amazing.
it hadn't thought.
i had honestly not thought how you would solve that problem in advance, and i'm glad i did because my amazement certainly i wanted it to show with the kids when i said ‘goodness, what, you know, how on earth are you going to do it that way?’.
it really was i was quite astonished to see some of the solutions.
one of the nice aspects of a task such as that is that i think we, as professional physicists — and i'm a physicist too erm we, as professional physicists, feel there's a right way of doing something because it's the way we learnt and we've got used to, and we tend to instil this idea into other people.
and i think it was really rather refreshing to see the kids not know what was the right idea and actually dream up all sorts of fantasies for themselves, many of which were had their own validity.
they really did.
i think this is an extremely important point in the teaching.
i think one of the difficulties of science — you talked at the beginning of switching people off science — is there are some golden opportunities when you can argue science, you can argue politics, you can argue english literature with your teacher — it's very hard to argue mathematics with your teacher.
it's hard also to argue physics and chemistry with your teacher.
i'd like to find some examples of that and to give the kids chances to talk and to argue their ideas where there isn't some mammoth answer stacked up on the shelves of a library somewhere.
there are a lot of simple problems where kids can actually have opinions.
sandy, are you finding any difference between the boys and girls in the way they're reacting to your experiments and course?
no, no difference whatsoever.
all of them enthusiastic — questions are coming think and fast, not at the end of a lecture — i think we actually slightly dominate them because we're not school teachers, but quote with a big u ‘university lecturers’, but get them down in the laboratory and the questions come thick and fast from boys and girls — no difference whatsoever.
so it's too young at the moment for the girls to feel that they can't do science.
they haven't been put off science, they haven't decided that it's unwomanlike, or unladylike to be a scientist?
you're right.
this group, however, are slightly specially selected.
these are selected children from the schools — often perhaps the best in the class — that have been put forward.
they're very determined.
further down the line the rot may have set in.
these are people who are enthusiastic about science that we're transferring more enthusiasm to, to reinforce their interest in science.
i am a bit worried about the ones further down the line, how we influence them.
sandy, what's going to happen to these kids when they go back to their dull, boring school laboratories and classes after having seen the vision of your course and what physics can possibly be in the future?
well we know, from talking to some of the school teachers involved, they go back and the kids go back and talk to the other kids in the form.
they may have a slight perturbation on the behaviour of the school teachers, because they're going to come back with some ideas which the school teachers will find slightly foreign to them.
for instance, in one of the lectures we were talking about how you know how heavy an atom is, and my colleague, mike pendlebury, was describing how you can actually do this by weighing a crystal and counting the number of atoms in it, erm this is certainly not the traditional way, it's a way that's been developed over the last few years.
it's a beautiful, simple way of doing it.
it's not at all in the general knowledge of the sixth form science teacher, or certainly not of the o level science teacher.
some of them are going to have to puzzle a little bit hard.
i do worry slightly that if some child answers this in an o level exam paper in, what, let's see, two years time, that they may get marked down.
i don't think that's a serious problem, but it nonetheless is the fact that this is now the method of measuring of weighing atoms.
you don't hurl them through space and put them through an electric field and a magnetic field and the rest of it.
the accuracy comes from literally counting the number of atoms in a single crystal of silicone and weighing it.
sandy, this is the first of these courses that you've run, and i deliberately said first of these courses — do you have any plans for running future courses?
it seems a great idea and it's a shame only to have one of them.
i think that'll depend on where the money comes from.
it always looms large.
these courses are funded by shell, and we're very grateful for their help.
they're quite expensive at the outset because what we've got to do is pay the lecturers to put a lot of work in on those lectures — it's not a simple thing writing this lecture for a thirteen year old and we also pay the school teachers for coming along and helping the lecturers.
provided shell were willing, we probably would go ahead next year, although the question you could ask is, having helped a group of thirty six kids in sussex this year, shouldn't shell, if they were going to run these master classes, help a group of kids in westmorland next year, rather than another group down in sussex next year.
it's very much up in the air about the continuation of these classes.
remember this is the very first class.
between christmas and new year, sitting writing the notes for this course, i was very twitchy about how successful it would be, and now quite happy talking to the children and school teachers and listening to the hubbub of questions and pleasure as they do it, that the thing is working.
it seems to have worked very well, and congratulations sandy.
thank you very much for talking to us about it.
that's all that we have time for today.
my guest today is sir richard attenbrough, or dickie to his many friends.
actor, film maker, entrepreneur, he's a many of many parts, including, for example, an association for the past seventeen or eighteen years with the university of sussex.
i think it was oh what a lovely war that i first remember seeing you round about the university.
was that your first contact with us?
yes, it was.
what i can't actually remember is whether lovely war preceded my son and daughter came to sussex.
i remember michael.
and i can't remember — i think michael must have come after a lovely war, or maybe contemporary with it, i'm not sure.
but it was about then — you're absolutely right — about that time, about nineteen sixty nine, nineteen seventy.
it was simply that we were shooting the picture down in brighton on the front to a large extent and on the rubbish dump, i remember, which we turned into the fields of northern france, and we needed that terrible phrase from the first world war, cannon fodder.
we needed young men who were dragooned into the services in the fourteen/eighteen war and erm who never came back, and we needed a lot of them.
and we provided them.
and the university provided them, greatly goosed on, i might say, by the then vice chancellor aisa briggs, who was very excited by the project, and that's really how i came to be connected with the university.
and not many years later than that you were involved with the gardener centre in one of its previous incarnations, if i could put it that way.
chairman of the board, weren't you?
yes i was.
it was again aisa briggs who said now come on, you know, we've helped you with the movie, come and do some work for the university, and i didn't need any encouragement.
i mean it seemed to me that the whole concept of an arts centre of that stature and calibre on campus was simply marvellous — not unique, but of a very remarkable concept — and i became, as you say, chairman of the gardener centre through aisa briggs' persuasion.
a very persuasive man.
oh very, oh very, yes.
and since then you've gone your own way and the gardener centre's gone its own way and it's, to be honest, gone down and up and down and 
mhm
it's up now — did you know that?
it's 
well i gather it is, yes.
the awful thing is that the movies that i've been involved with in the last erm few years have entailed my being abroad a great deal, and i was made in new york entirely and i was there for six or seven months, and the difficulty is that when you then make the movie and you take it round the world, you're away for another three or four months and so you end up being out of the country for quite a long time, so i've been nothing like as active with the university.
i'm rather ashamed.
i'm a very absentee pro-chancellor i'm afraid.
that was aisa, too, i might say, who persuaded me into that quite strange position for an old ham actor to be in, but erm 
well you may be an old ham actor, but i note you've picked up about five or six, i think, honourary degrees now.
erm have i?
yes, well, yes.
so somebody must think something of you.
you very humbly describe yourself as an absent pro-chancellor, but you have taken a considerable interest in this university over the years, and we've been grateful for it.
how do you perceive the flavour of sussex?
it's unique, there's no question about that.
i don't know any university that's quite like it.
i think it's disciplines are extremely interesting.
i love them.
the whole concept of the various courses here and schools here, i think they work marvellously and i think they're stimulating and i think, from my own point of view, admirable in this breadth of examination and erm investigation and enlightenment, which personally i think is desperately erm important in our current erm communities and that to specialising too soon erm really can be almost counter-productive.
i think that sussex in a way perhaps isn't quite as identifiable as it was and i think this doesn't necessarily cause by any particular circumstance or group of individuals or individual or whatever.
i think to a large degree fashion has something to do with it — the innovatory concept of sussex was very exciting in the sixties, it's a bit old had not.
i think sussex has got to find a new, new hat, and got to express itself and demonstrate that it is in no sense relying on twenty five years of erm of erm fairly high reputation that the next twenty five years and the next twenty five years after that are just as challenging, perhaps even more so.
again, i repeat with this problem of unemployment and so on, and the really obscene level of unemployment in this country at the moment — absolutely shocking i think — and i think the universities have to address themselves to that problem.
thank you for that.
i'm all in favour.
all i can say is amen in respect of what you were saying there.
all right, let's go and talk about films now.
you've done your bit for the universities.
oh no, i'd much rather not .
oh what a lovely war is a very favourite film of mine still.
i get very emotional when i see it.
i don't think i can still yet watch it without weeping — it's such a powerful film of a powerful time, and a terrible time really.
yes.
i was bitterly disappointed.
i saw it erm i ran it — i can't remember why i was running it, oh i think i wanted to look at an actor erm, oh no, it was at a festival and i had to sit through it and i was very disappointed in it, i found it slow and rather obvious and erm a little lacking in bite.
on the other hand its subject matter i found overwhelming.
one or two sequences worked quite well, but i hope i'm a better director now than i was then.
oh some marvellous performances in it, but really it was joan littlewood's intrinsic concept which was miraculous really, that's and really i don't know whether the movie lost a lot as against the play — i think it lost something — the important thing was that millions of people who would never have seen it, had it remained purely as a theatre production, did see what joan littlewood had to say, saw her perceptions, her wit, her humanity, and therefore i think it was well worth making.
and of course ghandi was your big success, so far, in a sense.
i mean you got every award going in the universe, just about, for that one.
how do you feel about that now looking back, are you beginning to get a little bit critical of yourself.
i hope so, yes.
ghandi came at the right time, you know.
there was a we need another feeling now, it seems to me.
i'm so sickened by the erm cynicism and scepticism and terrible jingoism that emanates to a large degree from the united states.
it seems to me that our leaders somehow or another have simply got to be persuaded that we are prepared to sacrifice a very great deal erm to secure erm a new attitude.
that it is inconceivable that after this number of centuries man still believes that ultimately the only way in which problems are solved is by blowing the other chap's head off, which is so lunatic now.
we've only seen what we've seen just recently in russia,
mhm
but i'm digressing.
ghandi, i think, in the early eighties epitomised, to a large degree, and attitude of concern about erm violence, and i think that in some large measure the sort of recognition that it gained, particularly in the awards and so on, had a lot to do with its subject matter as against it's actual execution, and i think that if it had been at another time, or if the subject matter hadn't been erm quite as powerful as that old genius's life was, i don't think it would have won the awards.
i think it was a combination of it was an okay movie, but it was also a wonderful subject, a wonderful subject.
i was a very good movie too, i must say.
those two movies had messages, very clear messages coming through.
now how about a chorus line?
it was a challenge.
i mean many people wrote disparagingly about your attempt, your nerve in taking on a gem of the new york stage and turning it into a british directed movie.
but erm did that have a message, or was that just a fun thing for you to do?
oh in large measure it was just a fun thing to do.
erm i mean i think if you dragged it in by its heels there is a message there, in that erm the struggle, again coming back to the university, that young people face in a competitive society, in an attempt to express themselves, to demonstrate that they have something to give and that no matter how difficult the whole economic circumstances are, and how problematical the question of employment is, young people are entitled, or society ought to see that they're entitled, erm to some manner of expression, some form of expression, to express themselves.
if they don't have that opportunity erm then what are we all doing.
i mean what is the purpose of all this, bringing the cost of living down — i don't know, a thousand things that politicians pride themselves on doing — it seems to me that they all should be taking second place to the lives that up and coming generations are going to live.
so i think that it's desperately important that people are conscious of that now.
in that little crucible of the theatre that story was demonstrated, that here were people of phenomenal talent, with an enormous amount to give, with the tremendous burning desire to express their feelings and their attitudes, and to the enhancement of other people's lives, and how cruel it was that it was so few that got through.
so, if you drag it in, yes there is, but it really was a marvellous piece of entertainment, you know, it's a wonderful show and i absolutely adored it.
i mean i had the most profound admiration for the kids in new york.
i mean they're unique 
this came over very clearly from what you said.
they're gypsies.
they call themselves gypsies.
they sing and they dance and they act, and they do not believe unless they are profoundly proficient in all three that they're entitled to be considered gypsies.
i've never met a more dedicated, resilient group of people in my life.
many people, as they approach their prime of life, look for easy options.
you see to be going for bigger and better challenges.
lunatic really, yes.
my whole family background has been responsible, in a way, for, by virtue of the example of my parents, for my distress at witnessing prejudice, whether it be colour, or religious, or whatever, and intolerance, and so on, and i've wanted to do a subject about south africa for a long time, and this was enhanced erm obviously when i made ghandi because, as you know, the first twenty odd years of ghandi's life 
indeed.
adult life was spent in south africa, and erm i found a couple of years ago two books written by a remarkable while english-speaking south african called donald woods, who was a newspaper editor, who befriended and then championed a remarkable young black south african called steve beeko, who was killed in police detention.
and the movie is the story of their friendship and donald woods' conversion, in a way, to the erm cause that erm called black consciousness which steve beeko erm promoted and so on, and it ends up with a sort of james bond escape from south africa in a way, in that donald and his wife and his five children, harassed and threatened by the erm south african government, finally escape.
it's an unequivocal condemnation of the obscenity of apartheid.
the great problem we face is that obviously the authorities in south africa don't want the picture to be made, and we're shooting it in zimbabwe, where we've been made very welcome, and erm the difficulties is the creation of south africa in zimbabwe, which means you have to go all over the place.
it's a very costly business, you know, but it must ring true because of course the actuality's on our televisions screens every other night and if it doesn't have an authentic ring to it then people won't accept what the picture has to say.
so, a man of many parts.
and film maker, and associated very much with this university i'm glad to say 
thank you.
and long may it last.
thank you very much for talking to me dickie.
oh it's a pleasure, brian.
lovely to see you again.
once again, good evening ladies and gentlemen, and once again i'd like to offer an especially warm welcome to this centenary lecture to those of you who've come from outside the university.
if you were with us at the last occasion of this sort, the last centenary lecture on gerter , given by professor corby, you will remember on that occasion erm he provided a focus of illumination in a period of power cuts, economic gloom and all the rest of it.
i am not very sure that things are very much better now, but at least the days are longer and we probably won't suffer a power cut tonight.
but in many parts of the world, and some of them not very far away from here, upheavals and agonies are going on, not unlike some of those experienced within the lifetime of the subject of tonight's lecture.
this, incidentally, is the fifteenth in the series of great centenaries, held under the auspices of the centre for continuing education, and it is to celebrate the death, and by that token the life and achievements, of the great english poet john milton, who died in erm sixteen seventy four.
i have very great pleasure in introducing our lecturer, my friend and colleague professor learner, who is professor of english in this university.
he was born in south africa and he studied at the universities of cape town and cambridge, and has taught in universities in britain, in america, in west africa and france and germany.
he joined this university shortly after it was founded, in fact in nineteen sixty two, and he became professor of english in nineteen seventy.
as many of you know, professor learner is a frequent broadcaster, and contributor in prose and in verse to such journals as the new statesman and the london magazine.
he's published three books of poetry, and two novels, and several works of literary criticism, the last of these, the uses of nostalgia, appeared in nineteen seventy two, and i understand, since this is a privileged occasion and puffs are in order, that his next book of poems, arthur, will appear some time this year.
in addition to all this, professor learner has been involved at various times in university adult education, and he takes english literature courses regularly for the centre for continuing education students, usually, but not invariably, at friends centre in brighton, and i am sure that like myself he is happy to see so many adults from outside the university with us tonight.
professor learner on milton.
the one thing that john milton knew from the moment when he first began to reflect on his destiny, was that he was going to write a great poem.
in one of his earliest pamphlets, called the reason of church government, he said this about himself: ‘after i had for my first years, by the ceaseless diligence and care of my father, whom god recompense, been exercised to the tongues and some sciences as my age would suffer, by sundry masters and teachers, both at home and at the schools, it was found that whether ought was imposed me by them that had the overlooking, or be taken to of mine own choice in english or other tongue, prosing or versing but chiefly by this latter, style by certain vital signs it had was likely to live.
but much latelier, in the private academies of italy, wither i was favoured to resort, perceiving that some trifles which i had in memory, composed at under twenty or thereabouts, for the manner is that everyone must give some proof of his wit a reading there, met with acceptance above what was looked for, and other things which i had shifted in scarcity of books and conveniences to patch up amongst them, were received with written incomience which the italian is not forward to bestow on men of this side the alps.
i began thus for to assent both to them and diverse of my friends here at home and not less to an inward prompting which daily now grew upon me, that by labour and intent study, which i take to be my portion in this life, joined with a strong propensity of nature, i might perhaps leave something so written to aftertimes as they should not willingly let it die.’
that is obviously the summary of a long story of consistent dedication, overlaid with constant hesitation and changings of mind and alternations about what the actual plans were going to be about the work that would be left to aftertimes.
we know more about milton, his personal concerns and his literary plans than we do about any other poet of his time, and indeed it may be that we have to come right up to the nineteenth century before we learn so much about the inner life of any poet.
for instance, at the age of twenty one, milton wrote a latin poem, sixth of his latin elegies and it's therefore just called elegia sexta.
he wrote it to his friend, charles diodati and it's an answer, in latin verse, to a letter from diodati apologizing that his poems were not as good as usual because he was leading too much social life.
milton replies with a twofold statement.
he begins: ‘i, with my empty belly, send you good health, which you, whose belly is bulging, may perhaps need ’ and then the falls into two halves.
the first half is in praise of feasting and drinking.
bacchus song loves bacchus and bacchus loves songs, says milton, and he gives us a whole stream of classical precedents, ovid,anacreon , pinder, the whole lot to show that a poet naturally will love the good life.
it includes a good bit of flattery of diodati and a celebration of the erotic lyric.
then he says ‘but he who tells of wars and heaven, under the sway of grown up jupiter, of pious heroes and semi-divine leaders, who at one moment things of the holy assemblies of the gods on high and then of those deep kingdoms where a fierce dog barks, let him live in the frugal manner of pythagoras and let herbs provide his harmless diet ’.
and then of course he gives classical precedence for this tireseus, orpheus, those poets who had magical powers, homer, who suggests not only frugal diet, but chastity will be the best preparation for the poet who has this task in hand.
it's quite clear of course that though diodati may belong to the first class, milton belongs to the second.
he is the poet dedicated from the beginning to a high heroic task.
hence that opening line.
it is appropriate that he should be the one with the empty belly addressing his friend.
and he finishes off this poem with a description of what he's now writing.
it is, in fact, the nativity hymn, milton's first important poem, and he concludes ‘i am now singing’, or actually he says ‘we are now singing the peace bearing king sprung of celestial seed’.
this is one of the earliest references we have in milton to his own dedication to the task of preparing himself for leaving something to aftertimes that it would not willingly let die.
the plans change.
you'll see his interest here in heroic material.
a little later we find him interested in the creation story and reading the now more or less unread epic on the divine week of creation by the french poet du bartas.
then a little later we find a great deal about romance.
he seems to be taking spencer and ariosto as his models.
we also find him toying with the idea of writing an arthuriad , choosing his subject from english history.
well being milton, and being very thorough, he gives us long lists, of course, of dozens of possible subjects that he had in mind, but he seems to have taken the king arthur story very seriously.
in another latin poem, for instance, called mansus, written to a distinguished old man and patron of the arts, that he met in italy, giovanni battista manso, a friend of tasso and marini, milton hopes that he too in his turn may find such a good friend and patron.
‘if ever i succeed’ he writes ‘in bringing our native kings back to life in my songs, and arthur who waged wars even under the earth, or if i tell of the splendid heroes of the table rendered invincible by their bond of comradeship and, oh if inspiration would but come to me, if i smash the saxon phalanxes beneath the impact of the british.’
if ever he manages to do this, he concludes, he hopes he will have a patron of similar eminence.
none of the this got written.
what happened instead was that milton got caught up in politics and when the civil war began he devoted his energy to pamphleteering.
well in a way it's not surprising that none of this got done, if you reflect how common it is that poetic plans don't get fulfilled.
but of course it did in a sense get done, but when milton did write his great poem, as we'll see, it came out very differently.
why have i begun with this story?
well, of course, because i want in talking about milton i want to stress his dedication.
indeed, i suppose, i even want to raise in passing the thought how single-minded should a poet be.
do we think of the young poets with the young literary man?
this is not a purely historical question.
do we think of the young literary man as choosing, in a sense, to be a student of literature and to turn his energies to nothing — except perhaps earning his bread — to nothing except fitting himself for the poems we are going to write, or do we think of poetry as in a sense the bi-product of a life seriously dedicated to other matters?
and for this, i suppose timeless question, milton does seem to me to offer a particularly interesting answer.
of course he belongs to the class which dedicates itself from the beginning, single-mindedly to literature, but yet not in the way we would think of.
first of all, for instance, the preparation which milton felt it was necessary for him to give himself, was neither technical nor introspective.
i mean by this it was not the sort of preparation which on the one hand elizabethan erm critics and writers of rhetoric books, or on the other hand ezra pound in the twentieth century would advise to the poet that he must learn to turn a good sonnet or write in all the metrical forms, or accomplish himself deftly in the technical devices.
nor was it in the romantic tradition that the cultivation of your own emotional development, the habits of seasoned and trade introspection, are really what the poet needs.
the preparation in milton's case was learn.
i am sure he would have considered that both technical accomplishment and, though not perhaps in the modern sense, introspection, were valuable for the poet, but the labour and intense study which you'll have noticed he referred to in that passage i've read, consisted of course of learning large numbers of languages, which he clearly did with great fluency, and reading inordinately the whole of human literature.
milton, i say it with confidence, even in the presence of my friend peter burke, was the most learned — was more learned than any man in this room.
second, the special quality of erm milton's preparation is that it was perfectly compatible with an act of life.
of course he complained when he entered political writing instead of preparing himself for his poem.
he felt, in fact, that he was giving up his career.
his self defence, and i now read from actually only a paragraph or so earlier than my opening passage, his self defence in the reason of church government is quite interesting erm ‘if i hunted after praise by the ostentation of wit and learning, i should not write thus out of mine own season, when i have neither yet completed to my mind the full circle of my private studies, although i complain not of any insufficiency to the matter in hand, or were i ready to my wishes it were a folly to commit anything elaborately composed to the careless and interrupted listening of these tumultuous times.
next, if i were wise only to my own ends, i would certainly take such a subject as of itself might catch a clause, whereas this’— he is of course writing about the vexed question of erm church government and the possible disappearance of episcopy —‘whereas this hath all the disadvantages on the contrary, and such a subject as the publishing whereof might be delayed at pleasure and time enough to pencil it over with the curious touches of art, even to the perfection of a faultless picture, whereas in this argument the not deferring it is of great moment to the good speeding.
that, if solidity have leisure to do her office, art cannot have much.
lastly, i should not choose this manner of writing, wherein knowing myself inferior to myself, led by the genial power of nature to another task, i have the use as i may account that of my left hand.’
the reasons he feels uneasy at the task he's given himself, of pamphleteering, are first that he's not he's had to interrupt his studies and is not get learned enough for his poem, though you will have noticed he considers himself quite learned enough for ecclesiastical politics.
second, that he objects to the topicality of the subject that he's chosen, and finally that he's not, of course, at home writing prose.
but i also began by raising the question of milton's sense of dedication because i want to talk a little bit about the egoism of creation.
you might feel, you perhaps did feel, is it not astonishingly self-centred, is it not even offensively self-centred, this concern with his own greatness, his own importance, what i am writing now, what i shall achieve.
his passages do, after all, occur, many of them, in political tracts, in which he stops and talks about himself.
of course he's answering accusations when he stops and defends himself.
of course we can talk about the standard of controversy in the seventeenth century and habits of erm arguing ad hominem more than, i suppose, would normally be acceptable today.
all the same, what would you think of these reasons for inserting a piece of autobiography into the second defence of the english people, a defence of course for cutting off the head of charles the first.
but in which he says that he's talking about himself ‘that so many good and learned men among the neighbouring nations who read my works may not be induced by this fellow's calumnies to alter the favourable opinion they have formed of me, followed by the assertion that the people of england whom fate, or duty, or their own virtues have incited me to defend may be convinced from the purity and integrity of my life that my defence, if it do not redown to their honour, can never be considered as their disgrace.’
well i have to establish my own virtue and distinction.
why?
because i am, after all, the defender of the english people.
you could suspect that this is a way of making it more rather than less egoistic, couldn't you?
indeed, there is — and we must confess it — there is no doubt about milton's egoism as a man.
i suppose the most striking illustration of this would be the story of the divorce tracts.
milton gives us his own account of why he wrote his divorce tracts by saying ‘when the bishops could no longer resist the multitude of their assailants, i had leisure to turn my thoughts to other subjects.
when therefore i perceived that there were three species of liberty which are essential to the happiness of social life, religious, domestic and civil, and as i've already written concerning the first, and the magistrates were strenuously active in obtaining the third, i determined to turn my attention to the second, or the domestic species.
nobody would guess from that admirably impersonal account that milton settled to write his first divorce only a few weeks after the bitter disappointment of his marriage.
nor, i think, would you guess that in the divorce tracts there is an intensity of disillusion and indeed a self-pity.
well, i'll give you a specimen.
it is not less than cruelty to force a man to remain in that state as the solace of his life, which he and his friends know will be either the undoing or the disheartening of his life.
we know from external evidence that milton is clearly talking about himself at this point.
it does not, however, prevent him from saying that now, in this tract — this is from the doctrine and discipline of divorce —‘the duty and right of an instructed christian calls me, through the chance of good or even report, to be the sole advocate of a discountenanced truth.
a high enterprise, lords and commons, a high enterprise and a hard, and such as every seventh son of a seventh son does not venture on.’
this can cast us back to that sense of aestheticism and dedication that we saw in the sixth elegy.
i don't suppose there's much doubt that milton approached his marriage a little late in life with an intensity of idealism that must, to some degree, have derived from the high conception of the chastity to which he had up till then dedicated himself, and poor mary powell, just like desdemona, becomes a victim of male idealisation and the unreasonable demands that it makes.
now i've not mentioned this not totally creditable episode in milton's life, i've not mentioned it simply to make him unlikeable to you, but to go on and say that the kind of egoism which issues in this way in his life issues in a rather different way in his worth.
there it issues in a way which seems to me not only acceptable but poetically extremely valuable.
‘yet once more, oh ye laurels, and once more ye myrtles brown, with ivy never seer , i come to pluck your berries harsh and crude, and with forced fingers rude shatter your leaves before the mellowing year.
bitter constraint and sad occasion dear compels me to disturb your season dew.
for lucidas is dead, dead 'ere his prime, young lucidas and hath not left his peer.
who would not sing for lucidas.
he knew himself to sing and build the lofty rhyme.
he must not float upon his watery bier unwept and welter to the parching wind without the mead of some melodious tear.’
it is in a way saying the same thing as the preface to the reason of church government.
‘reluctant as i am, i must lay aside other tasks and do this one.’
i presume that the before the mellowing year, the premature moment at which he's dedicating himself is of course a personal reference concerning his own youth.
but the difference is that the degree to which milton is speaking in his own person seems so much less in the poem, doesn't it?
it's almost a kind of professional remark.
he's writing as the poet.
if i do it for edward king, somebody will do it for me.
indeed, it's not only the writer who is depersonalised, but also the subject.
it's not edward king, the man who was actually drowned and whom, as it happens, milton hardly knew, it's lucidas, the figure of the young poet, priest, put to some extent on a classical model that he is writing about.
lucidas, i suppose, more than any other poem of milton's, and indeed i suppose more than any other poem in english, lucidas shows us that there doesn't have to be a conflict between personal involvement and formal rhetoric.
though the very fact that it is so traditional and so formal a poem in the pastoral tradition, held in the tightness of all the conventions that it employs, not only allows, but in some strange way makes possible, the intensity of personal feeling that it contains.
for instance, erm when he speaks the fact that the young man was cut off in his prime, perhaps the most famous passage of the lot ‘alas what boots it with incessant care to tend the homely slighted shepherd's trade and strictly meditate the thankless muse.
were it not better done as other use to sport with amaryllis in the shade, or with the tangles of nayera's hair.’
writing poetry is presented in the wholly artificial diction of tending the shepherd's trade, or in a latinism that is not even correct, colloquial, normal english in meditating the thankless muse.
the lures of sex, relaxation, all the things that distract you from your high heroic task, are in the form of nymphs with latin names.
it's hard to imagine anybody writing more artificially, but i hope you feel, as i do, there can hardly be a piece of poetry in which the distress of the poet and the feeling that he may be wasting his time comes through in a more anguished fashion.
and since i am raising this question of the universalizing and the depersonalizing of egoism as it becomes poetic dedication in poetry, i'd like to do this by offering you a contrast, and i choose as my contrast alexander pope, another poet who was obsessively concerned with his own role as a poet — in his satires in this case.
he spent a good deal of time in his satires, presenting himself as a satirist — unplaced, unpensioned, no man's heir or slave he proudly describes himself as he tells us that he's willing to lash out at even the most eminent public figures.
it's impressive, in a way, as an assertion of poetic independence.
but it's almost impossible to separate it from thinking of alexander pope the man.
‘i will or perish in the generous cause.
hear this and tremble, you who scape the laws.
yes, while i live, no rich or noble maid shall walk the world in credit to his grave.’
i'm not very sure it's prudent if you're indicating your own incorruptibility as a poet to put it in the future tense in the first place, and when you continue as pope does ‘envy must own, i live among the great’ as he starts to describe his own life and you realise he's bringing in touches about himself which really have very little to do with the particular role as poet, it becomes quite clear that that depersonalisation process has not taken place in the case of pope.
erm i suppose the very extreme of such self-satisfaction is in the epilogue to pope's satires, where he actually tells us ‘yes, i am proud.
i must be proud to see men not afraid of god afraid of me.’
hence rhyme, you can see, is a two-edged weapon in the hands of a poet.
now, as i say, poetic boasting is, in a way, something that is common to both pope and milton.
i think once more, but now for the last time, i'm going to turn back again to the preface to the reason of church government and whoops and read you one more sentence erm in which he is apologizing once more for having entered the fray, the political fray ‘but although a poet, soaring in the high region of his fancies, with his garland and singing robes about him, might without apology speak more of himself than i mean to do, yet for me, sitting here below in the cool element of prose, a mortal thing among many readers of no imperial conceit, to venture and divulge unusual things of myself, i shall petition to the gentler sort it may not be envy to me.’
and he then actually goes on and writes the passage i began by reading of straight autobiography.
well you'll see that in that apology milton appears to be conscious of the very point that i am trying to make, that is to say it might be considered out of place in this prose work to speak of myself in direct factual terms, although a poet — a poet intending to write of things unattempted yet in prose or rhyme — a poet soaring in the high region of his fancies, with his garland and singing robes about him, in other words where we can't or aren't really invited to make out his individual identity very clearly because it is his role as poet that concerns us, there he clearly feels it would be proper.
when he came to write paradise lost, milton on four occasions deliberately spoke in his own person in a way very close to the opening of lucidas, or to the programme which that last sentence suggests to us.
these are the four exordia or openings to books one, three, seven and nine.
the most is the invocation to light in book three, in which milton speaks out of his blindness, uses that to place himself in a tradition, and again without foregoing his intensity of personal involvement.
indeed, i think that probably is the rival to lucidas as the demonstration of how the depersonalizing is compatible with the most intense personal involvement.
but i'm going to read you something much shorter from one of the from i suppose the least well known of the exordia, that is the one to book seven.
erm the ostensible subject of this passage is that he's now finished with hell and heaven as the setting for his poems, and he's coming down to earth for what is left.
‘standing on earth, not wrapped above the pole, more safe i sing, withe moral voice unchanged to horse or mute, though fallen on evil days, on evil days though fallen and evil towns, in darkness and with dangers compassed round and solitude.
yet not alone while though visits my slumbers nightly, or when morn purples the east.
still govern though my song urania and fit audience find, though few.
but drive far off the barbarous dissonance of bacchus and his revellers.
the race of the wild route that torn the thresian bard in rodderpee , where wood and rocks had ears to rapture to the savage clamour drowned both harp and voice.
nor could the muse defend her son.
so fail not though who thee implores, for thou are heavenly, she an empty dream.’
once again i think we have a great intensity of personal feeling.
he speaks directly to us in the first person and he expresses something very like fear and even self-pity, the distress of the poet, seeing himself as a kind of natural victim, and it may be the distress of the puritan living on after the restoration and afraid of the wild route, which is charles the second's court, though i think we can be a little sceptical of this and we certainly don't know with sufficiently accuracy when paradise lost was written.
it is the context of the poet, inspired but misunderstood, humble in front of the muse.
it is intensely personal, but again one can detect in it mechanisms used to control the feeling and turn it from a mere discharge of personal feeling into a genuine expression of emotion.
primarily, i suppose, the rhythm, the very moving strange erm playing of sentences against blank verse, unchanged to horse or mute, though fallen on evil days, on evil days though fallen and evil tongues.
and also, of course, the reference to orpheus, a figure who clearly haunted milton's imagination as that of the poet of enormous power but somehow also the natural victim.
erm this passage, of course, about the savage clamour drowning both harp and voice, refers to the legend of orpheus being torn to pieces by the thrashian women, which milton also uses in lucidas.
so, my perhaps trite point in conclusion is that there is no tension, or rather there is a tension, but there is no incompatibility or contradiction between formality and personal involvement in the case of milton.
and now, clearly, it's time i turned to the poem itself, having spent most of my hour on the question of how milton got there.
when he finally found his subject, it was, as you all know, the fall of man, the eating of the apple, taken from genesis.
and it was the right subject — he got there in the end — because it enabled him to use everything that was most important in his own experience.
for instance, it enabled him to use the very struggle for a subject, which had occupied so much of his line, since we can partly see that struggle as a struggle within milton over his own humanist heritage.
that is the struggle between milton the poet and milton the puritan.
this is a constant dilemma.
suppose somebody read to you, without telling you the author, but telling you the date — the early seventeenth century lines like this ‘but let my due feet never fail to walk the studious cloisters pale and love the high embowered rough with antique pillars and and storeyed windows richly dyked, casting a dim religious light, there let the pealing organ blow to the full-voiced choir below in service high and anthems clear, as may with sweetness through mine ear dissolve me into ecstasies and bring all heaven before my eyes.
and may at last my weary age find out the peaceful hermitage, the hairy gown and mossy sill where i may sit and rightly spell of every star that heaven doth show, and every herb that sips the dew, till old experience do attain to something like prophetic strain.’
well, you would say attractive poet, fertile imagination, lover of the sense, likes organ music, likes stained glass windows, is sympathetic to the idea of monasticism retiring into a hermitage, probably a roman catholic.
and you were then told that he was the great propagandist of those who went around a dozen years or so later breaking down these storeyed windows, richly dykes, because it was of course profane and idolatrous to have that dim religious light in your churches.
you could hardly deny that there's a certain tension between poet and puritan.
indeed, if we want a puritan poet at that time, we would do far better to turn to that good, upright anglican priest george herbert, than we would to john milton.
george herbert addresses his own conscience, ‘peace prattler, do not lower, not a fair look, but though dost call it foul; not a sweet dish, but though dost call it sour.
music to thee doth howl.
by listening to thy chatting fears i have both lost mine eyes and ears.’
and we discover the doctrine that conscience reprimands you for every one of your pleasures erm sweet dishes, music, everything, because they are all the product of depraved and sinful human nature.
the doctrine of the fall, the all pervading fall, of man through all man's faculties, the good calvinist doctrine is held clearly with much more intensity here.
now when it came to paradise lost, this tension, which is simply excluded from il penseroso, is actually inserted into the poem.
it's inserted into the poem in two ways: first the devils are identified with the pagan gods — they are introduced, indeed, with a great fanfare in the first book and given all sorts of classical erm and oriental names, and milton explains to us that of course it was the devils themselves who managed to disperse this tradition that that's who they really were; and second, and though less central and less impressive in its poetic results, is perhaps the second device which is more interesting when we think of the poem in terms of milton's personal involvement.
second he tells us that the classical paradises, which you can read about it in ancient authors, none of them are as fine as the garden of eden.
‘not that fair field of enna where prosepene , gathering flowers, herself a fairer flower by gloomy diss was gathered, which costs series all that pain to seek her through the world.
nor that sweet grove of daphne biorontes and the inspired castilian spring might with this paradise of eden strive.
william emser has resurrected for us a brilliantly stupid comment by the eighteenth century classical scholar bentley on these lines.
bentley says of them ‘with a silly thought in the middle and a sillily conducted in its several points.
not enna says he, not daphne, nor fonds castalus , nor beaser , nor mount amera could compare with paradise.
why, who would suspect they could, though you had never told us.’
and says emser ‘a man who had given all his life to the classics might easily have suspected it’.
here we have, of course, the explanation why these lines are so enormously moving.
milton is paying to eden the highest compliment in his power.
he is throwing away for it a lifetime's dedication to classical studies.
it is my little pet theory about religious poetry that the greatest religious poetry is an act of renunciation and therefore what you have to do is put in what you're giving away.
you write the same poem over and over again and tell us what you're no longer going to do.
‘nothing in this marvellous list’ says milton ‘was as fine as eden’and of course it hurts him to say it, and i don't think it's far fetched to detect that hurt and pain of that great sacrifice that john milton is making in the rhythm when we read ‘might with this paradise of eden strive’, or in the fact that he can't stop there, because i didn't — as you will have realized from bentley's comment — i didn't read you the whole passage.
he goes on ‘nor that niceanile girt with the river triton, where old cham , whom gentiles annan call and libian jove , his and his florid son, young bacchus’, sorry ‘hid’— gracious me, there's a misprint.
milton ‘where old old cham , whom gentiles annan call and libian jove , hid and her florid son, young bacchus from his stepday maria's eye, nor where abasin kings there issue guard mount amara, though this by some suppose true paradise under the ethiope line by head enclosed with shining rock a whole day's journey high, but wide remote from this asyrian garden where the fiend saw undelighted or delight.’
you can see milton can't stop.
he's got to go on for another ten lines, piling on more and more out of the way references to classical paradises so that he can give it all away for god.
so far from being, as you might at first glance suspect, a wanton display of milton's monstrous learning, it's a piece of triumphant relevance.
the more he can find to dazzle us with the greater is the compliment that he pays to eden.
indeed, this very struggle that i find so fascinating in the writing of paradise lost, you know,a rather intimate way i feel i can see it in eleven words that come just a little earlier in the fourth book, in which he tells us ‘seeing the apples growing on the trees, that they are hisperian fables true, if true here only and of delicious taste’.
i like to think that milton originally wrote hispearian fables true and of delicious taste.
it's metrically quite plausible.
that would be a gesture of supreme eloquence by milton, the humanist.
that would be an extravagance of classicallly based compliment and then milton the puritan comes along and says to himself that won't do, we need a footnote, and in goes the footnote if true here only — don't forget that these classical legends are all lies.
paradise lost, like colmris is a poem with a thesis, but the counter position of the thesis is so powerful that the poem, both these poems, have to be described as the enactment of a conflict, rather than the giving us of the result.
the thesis, of course, is quite simple.
the poem sets out to justify the ways of god to men, and what little time is left me will be devoted to justifying the ways of god to men, and we must begin this, sorry we must begin this by a word on on the fall — the way of god the ways of god to men of course are punishing men for the fall.
if the circumstances of this crime — that is the eating of the apple — are duly considered, it will be acknowledged to have been a most heinous offence and a transgression of the whole law.
for what sin can be named which was not included in this one act.
it comprehended at once distrust in the divine voracity and a proportionate credulity in the assurances of satan, unbelief, side b graditude , disobedience, gluttony, ‘in the man excessive uxoriousness, in the woman a want of proper regard for her husband, in both an insensibility to the welfare of their offspring and that offspring the whole human race.
parasite, theft, invasion of the rights of others, sacrilege, deceit, presumption in aspiring to divine attributes, fraud in the means employed to attain the object, pride and arrogance.
that comes from milton's latin treaties on christian doctrine, and you can see he certainly must have felt he'd found his subject.
it clearly implies a world order in which the prime virtue is obedience, not a world order that's exactly to our twentieth century democratic taste, but then after all not a world order altogether to milton's taste, as we can remind ourselves by thinking of his plea for unlicensed printing the areopagitica.
obedience is, of course, to god and not to man.
well, i am alas going to have to leave out my discussion of god in paradise lost, the question of whether, by presenting the obedience to god you can somehow make it more palatable to the readers' tastes than you could if it was entirely thought of as a secular morality.
and the answer of course is that it depends how much you make god like yourself, and that's a test that milton doesn't come altogether well out of.
but i want really, in conclusion, to jump straight to the central part of the poem in which the ways of god to man,got to me are most clearly justification's most clearly involved, and that is the actual process of the fall.
milton's task, of course, is to convince us of the sin involved.
just to convince us that all these things that he tells us about are somehow present, to convince us of the heinousness of what he's done.
in a word, i suppose i think he succeeds better with eve than he does with adam.
but i'm going to put the evidence in front of you and ask you to decide for yourselves.
immediately after the climax of the poem — the tremendous lines in which no so saying ‘a rash hand in evil hour forth reaching to the fruit she plucked, she ate’.
immediately after this big moment the earth is convulsed with horror we have eve's first speech, presumably after the fall the first speech in a state of sin, and this is it ‘oh sovereign virtuous, precious of all trees in paradise, of operation blest to sapinense hitherto obscured in famed and thy fair fruit let hang as to not end created, but henceforth my early care not without song each morning and dew/due pray shall tend thee and the fertile burden ease of thy full branches offered free to all.
till dieted by thee i grow mature in knowledge, as the gods who all things know.
though others envy what they cannot give, for had the gift been theirs it had not here thus grown.
experience next to thee i owe, best guide, not following thee i have remained ignorance.
thou openest wisdom's way and gives no secret she retire.
and i perhaps am secret.
heaven is high, high and remote to see from thence distinct each thing on earth.
another care perhaps may have diverted from continual watch our great forbidder safe with all his spies about him.
but to adam, in what sort shall i appear?
shall i to him make know as yet my change and give him to partake full happiness with me?
or rather not, but keep the odds of knowledge in my power without co-partner, so to add what wants in female sex the more to draw his love and render me more equal and perhaps a thing not undesirable sometimes superior, for inferior .
this may be well, but what if god has seen and death ensue, then i shall be no more and adam wedded to another eve shall live with her enjoying i extinct a death to think.
confirm then i resolve, adam shall share with me in bliss or woe , so dear i love him that with him all deaths i could endure without him live no life.’
well that shows us what a dramatist was lost to the english stage when milton finally decided to write it as an epic and not as a play.
eve starts with an extravagance.
well we might consider frenzied and suspect —‘oh sovereign virtuous, precious of all trees’, though we must be careful of course because in the formal style of paradise lost such opening addresses are common.
well we can have no doubt when a moment later she turns to idolatry and assures the tree that her early care ‘not without song each morning and due/dew praise’— a little excessive for a tree, perhaps.
that's what she's going to devote to it.
and, indeed, as befits someone who's hovering on the edge of idolatry, even her vocabulary has gone a little pagan ‘till dieted by thee i grow mature in knowledge as the gods who all things know’, and then what i think is a brilliant touch on milton's part, the very next line says to us ‘though others envy what they cannot give’.
now the others she's referring to there must be god, but she cannot immediately go on and so bluntly say, in the very next line anyway, you know, it was only the serpent who showed it to me, god is going to be envious of me.
so it's this kind of vague offstage ‘others’ who seem to have the power in that case.
well, you'll also have noticed i am sure that as she went on touches of uneasiness began to appear.
for instance, after she had said i would have remained in ignorance, the tree opens wisdoms way though secret she retire, the word secret catches up almost by a mechanical verbal train of association the thought and on it perhaps secret and then all these uneasy feelings that perhaps god's so far away, or he wasn't watching, or in some way or other he didn't actually see.
erm then when it comes to adam, the first thought in relation to adam is of course that she's improved her own position, isn't it?
it's only after that that once again she begins to be worried at possible consequences ‘what if god hath seen and death ensue, then i shall be no more and adam wedded to another eve’ and therefore, of course, ‘adam shall share with me in bliss or woe’.
c s lewis, a little unkindly, describes this as murder 
in which he says that erm the more convinced that she is that it's going to be fatal in its operation, the more determined apparently she is that adam shall share.
whether she is consciously twisting logic, or just, poor girl, confused, i'm not sure, but at the end it's quite clear ‘so dear i love them that with him all deaths i could endure, without him live no life’, that she's got into a world of fantasy because the one thing that is of course not in question is that adam should die and that she should live on, which appears to be what she's referring to here.
now i think this is a brilliant speech, but i have to admit that it is a speech which, in showing the egoism, the confusion and the self-deception of eve, assumes a valid order which is being destroyed.
that is to say, it assumes the hierarchical erm conception of god's world and the ethic of obedience, which, as we saw from that prose passage, underlies the conception of the fall as the central sin.
and this point is even more clear-cut with adam.
the last passage i'm going to have time to read comes in the erm speech of adam erm, not actually speech, the inward soliloquy to adam, the first thing that he says he says his case is not yet fallen when he sees eve.
eve comes to him and tells him what she's done.
‘oh fairest of creation, last and best of all god's works, creature in whom excelled whatever can to sight or thought be formed, wholly divine, good, amiable or sweet, how art thou lost?
how on a sudden lost, defaced, deflowered and now to death devote, rather how has thou yielded to transgress the strict forbiddance, how to violate the sacred fruit forbidden.
some cursed fraud of enemy hath beguiled thee yet unknown, and me with thee hath ruined, for with thee certain my resolution is to die.
how can i live without thee?
how forego thy sweet converse and love so dearly joined, to live again in these wild woods forlorn.
should god create another eve and i another rib of , yet loss of thee would never from my heart.
no, no, i feel the link of nature draw me.
flesh of flesh, bone of my bone thou art, and from thy state mine never shall be parted, bliss or woe.’
in a way, the most important word in the whole of that speech is probably ‘nature’—‘i feel the link of nature draw me’ because here now adam is using the word nature as, i suppose, he would not have used it at any earlier point in the poem.
it is being used as something contrasted to god's order.
he's already feeling that there is a counter movement in him which he is prepared to call nature, which links him to eve and which will lead him to join eve in her defiance of god.
we have of course got here a speech about a human bond versus a larger loyalty.
about a link of nature versus accepting your place in god's universe and obeying god's instructions.
milton, we could say, is here showing us the price of following god's command.
what, once sin has entered the world, it can cost you to obey all those injunctions in the new testament about ‘i am thy father and thy mother,sell all and follow me.’
and of course he's showing us adam's failure to follow .
you could even say that milton's rejecting the future in this speech and saying i label sin what is going to become, if you have prophetic powers, new kind of ethic.
and to justify the ways of god to men with such honesty, that is to say with such a complete account of what the price is which would have to be paid, is of course no longer to justify but to enact the actual conflict.
it is no longer to come down on one side or other of the fence as the entire poem was so clearly designed to do, but to say following the ways of god will mean this.
and that, of course, is why in the end, though we can all read paradise lost alike, and we can all in a certain sense respond to paradise lost alike, we must come to our final conclusions about the poem in terms of our own values.
and for the humanist reader, for this reason paradise lost is really the greatest reputation of christianity that's ever been written.
thank you.
this is the second in our new series of twelve programmes on opportunities in education, in which we're looking at some of the ideas in action in schools today.
contributors are largely from the education faculty at the university, and today i have with me dr johanna turner, who is a developmental psychologist and the person who is particularly interested in development in young children.
jo, at what stage do you think that formal education ought to start for a child?
as you know, at the moment it starts and five, but ideally perhaps it could start younger, but obviously there are financial considerations as well.
perhaps a development of nursery education on a much greater scale, bigger scale than has hitherto been the case 
well, be careful what you're committing me to say.
i mean you asked me about formal education and immediately we're talking about nursery education.
now i don't want necessarily to equate the two of them.
i do think some formal education could start sooner, but i wouldn't want you or the listeners to think that nursery education and formal education are one and the same.
what is the difference, basically?
well i think one of the advantages of a nursery schooling is certainly a considerable amount of social interaction for the children, which very often they won't be obtaining, either if they're living in high rise flats, or at the other end of the social spectrum if their parents are living in large houses with large gardens and no other children within the vicinity.
so i think it has a social function, as well as a formal educational function.
do you think that the social function comes before the formal function, or do you think they both go together?
i think it would depend on the child.
for some children they are more socially deprived, and yet they may be getting considerable ‘education’ in inverted commas within their home environment.
for other children they probably are getting enough social interaction, there may be plenty of children around, but educationally, in terms of the sort of basics for education they may be extremely deprived.
i think there are many functions that it serves.
do children develop at roughly the same rate?
can you say that all three year olds are roughly the same?
you can say that three year olds are more like other three year olds than, say, thirty year olds would be like other thirty year olds, and the younger the child the more true that is, so that would be much more true at age a year, assuming that there aren't any physical defects or mental defects, than say at three.
so by three, yes, there is some variation, but they are certainly there is less variation than you would get at the end of the secondary school or university.
and are there quite specific stages that one can recognise perhaps as a developmental psychologist which take place at roughly particular times in a child's development?
very broadly.
could you give me some idea of what these might be in the very early years perhaps?
perhaps i could, but whether i should is a different point.
i feel that once parents begin to become too aware of norms, they worry, and therefore unless a child is grossly out of sync, if you like, with their peers, i wouldn't say it would matter, but yes, one would expect a three year old to be talking at one extreme.
if there is no speech by three, indeed if there is no speech earlier than that, it might be very important to check that the child is not deaf.
i think also you would expect children who are really quite young, well before the first year, to be showing social interest in other adults around, and if they're not it might be worth checking that there isn't some problem with the child.
but generally speaking i'm not very happy about norms.
oh well we won't press you on that particular point then.
there's been a lot of publicity recently about parents teaching their own children, rather formal things.
there have been one or two stories about youngsters who've become reached a very high level in mathematics, for example.
are you in favour of parents teaching their own children?
well can i come to that in a minute, because you said something i'd like to pick up.
you said the child may not be developing in the way the parent expects the child to develop, and i think that it's very important for parents to check out their expectations.
if they are expecting something that they haven't got, it may well be that their expectation is wrong.
what is important is the child that they have in front of them, and to learn to understand that child.
it's not it's brother or sister, or their brother or sister, it is unique, and it's pattern of development, although of course it will be broadly similar to other children, exactly like no other child, and in a sense i would feel that the parental job is to judge very carefully the needs and the developmental cycle of their own child, and then stimulate to the extent that that child needs.
now having said that, of course, i've almost answered the other question, that i just do not believe there are any rules.
i mean maybe you're thinking of the sort of publicized cases of a nine year old, i believe it was, who's got a levels in mathematics.
i would not want to say that i could criticise that parent, because i don't know the background of it.
i would very much hope that other parents would not feel that they ought to be doing to the same thing, unless their circumstances were very similar.
if you have a child who appears to show a talent at one thing, then of course it's natural to let the child do what it enjoys doing, but that might be the very moment for saying well what is this child not talented at and ensuring that this child gets some experience of the kind of world that it not part of its own talents, so i would feel, from my own point of view and as a psychologist, that if you have a child who is very talented in mathematics, then fine, it's going to be quite good at mathematics one would assume, now's the time to say well is it as equally talented in music?
are there other things that could develop?
has it got erm a wide social relationship with other children?
so that at the end of the day one has a much more rounded individual with of course specific talents.
i'm not for holding back children.
i think parental anxieties are something with which one must have great sympathy because very often the anxiety is not so much an anxiety about the child, it's an anxiety about the parent.
if they have had difficulty in school they will worry that their child is having difficulty in school.
now of course it may be that the child has caught a worry about schooling from the parent, but i think that's the first thing to sort out — is this really a problem in the child, or is it a problem in the parent's mind?
and secondly, i mean obviously parents are more worried if they feel that their child is not doing as well as somebody else's child, and we're back to this question of expectation again — where did they get the expectation that this other child is, as it were, some sort of norm that they ought to be living up to , and parents should talk to teachers and to other people who know their child and have got experience of their child as against other children to find out really whether their worries are truly grounded, or whether they are just groundless.
i think to come back to an earlier question of what should you teach them, and what is normal, is that ideally a child wants to grow up in an environment where his or her parents enjoy here, where the relationship is enjoyable on both sides and not shot through with anxiety about how well this child is developing, providing the development is within the normal range.
if the child has a special skill or the parent has a special interest and they enjoy together exchanging this skill or interest, like teaching a child to swim very young, teaching it to play or listen to music, or play very simple rhythmic sounds, then as long as it is done within a relationship that is, above all, a loving relationship, great.
but if it's done as a way of accelerating the child's development, in order, as it were, to give it the edge over its peers, that doesn't seem to me to suggest a relationship in which parent and child are enjoying each other ; it is much more a relationship in which the child is being prepared for competition with its peers and this, i feel, probably is going to turn out badly, because almost inevitably the child will not reach the levels that the parent has build up in fantasy in its own mind.
how do you feel about parents teaching children how to read?
i think it comes to the same thing.
if the parent feels they know a system that they have heard or read is successful, and if they try it out on the child and the child obviously enjoys it, if it becomes part of a game, then i can't see any harm in it, but i think the parent has to be scrupulously honest as to whether the child is enjoying it.
if there's any hint that the child isn't enjoying it then i don't think it should happen.
if parents really want to help their children, with reading specifically, i feel that margaret donaldson, who is and educational psychologist in edinburgh, is correct when she points out that one of the greatest difficulties children have when they go to school is that many of them don't understand what kind of activity reading is.
for instance, they don't understand, as she quotes in her book, what somebody is doing when they're reading a newspaper, or what it means when the postman looks at a envelope.
now if parents, through playing games with their children that are based on words, could alert the child to the fact that print is a convention and that we can translate print into reality, obviously not as abstract as that, but just get the child used to knowing what print is, knowing what reading is, so that perhaps when they go to school they may well know this is a skill that they don't have, like they don't know, perhaps, how to ride a bike, they may not know how to swim, they certainly don't know how to drive a car, but they do know what sort of a thing driving a car is.
in that way, i think they'd be much more prepared for learning the skill than if they go completely unprepared and see children looking at books and saying things and it makes no sense to them.
my last question is is really again about making children do things, as opposed to encouraging or helping them to do things.
you say that so far as you're concerned, it's all right for children to learn if in fact they're enjoying it and if in fact they want to and they're not being coerced.
surely that makes the transition between home and school a rather traumatic one?
having worked and been around the brighton first schools for many years, i would very much hope that the transition is not traumatic.
certainly, the most of the infant teachers i know take great pains to make sure that it is not traumatic and that the move from home to school is as easy as possible.
now having said that, often the trauma, which goes back to my original remark, is the sheer number of children, the sort of social impact that a reception class can have.
now if a parent can have introduced the child via nursery school to that amount of other children, then i think there should be very little trauma, but that isn't to say that as the child gets older they don't have to do things.
but if a child has to do something because they can understand the end a which they're aiming, in the way that a footballer has to train, or a boxer has to train, then it becomes easier to do the equivalent of training.
one of the difficulties is that the end state is so far removed from the average child that it is very difficult for them to see why they have to learn to read, but if they can realize that if they learn to read in those houses where they have it they'll be able to read the radio times and know what the television programmes are, that at least is motivating.
i mean reading as to be put in a context and a context that is, in fact, enjoyable to the child, not something that just happens at school that they have to do, hence one they go to school the value of parents hearing the children read, because then the parent is also involved and one doesn't get this split between home and school.
well thank you very much, jo.
hello.
this is another programme in which we explore the boundaries of science, limits to what we know, or can possibly discover.
today we look at the start of it all, the creation of the universe.
john barrow is an astronomer at the university.
john, how long ago was the universe created?
well i think all we can say with any confidence is that the patterns of evolution and behaviour going on within it today indicate that it has an apparent beginning between about fifteen and eighteen billion years ago.
you say an apparent beginning, does that mean there's a great deal of uncertainty associated with it?
there is an uncertainty in the sense that we today observe the universe to be in a state of expansion, that is the most distant galaxies and clusters and galaxies are all receding from one another at a high speed, which actually increases as you look farther and farther away from us.
if we sort of reverse things in our minds eye, and look backwards into the past history of the universe, we can come to a time where apparently all the material in the universe would have been on top of itself, that it would all have been squeezed into a point, and this moment sometimes people call the big bang, or the initial singularity.
and it's that moment which, when we trace the expansion backwards, will have occurred between about fifteen and eighteen billion years ago, but we can't say what, if anything, may have happened before that, whether the universe bounced out into another state of expansion, so we have a sort of a cut off in our ability to retrodict , or extrapolate backwards into the past.
the uncertainty in the number that i gave you, about fifteen to eighteen billion years, is not in any sense an error due to inaccuracies of measurements of the rate at which the universe is currently expanding, but there are systematic differences of opinion about how one should calibrate the expansion rate, because people have different means of measuring the distance from us of the most luminous objects.
when one calculates, for example, the beginning of the universe, using the methods you described, surely you're making great assumptions about the laws of physics not having changed?
yes, that's certainly the case.
one doesn't always have to make those assumptions, of course.
one thing worth remarking about this is cosmology and astronomy in general is very unusual science in the sense that when we observe very distant objects in the universe we are observing the universe actually as it was in the past, because the light that's coming towards us from a distant galaxy or cluster of galaxies actually left that object maybe millions or billions of years ago.
when we see a distant galaxy we're not seeing it as it is today, we're seeing it as it was a long time ago.
so when we say we want the laws of physics perhaps to stay constant in time, when we observe these objects a long way away we're observing the laws of physics as they were a long time ago.
but not close to several billion years ago?
almost, but erm one could certainly arrive at a situation of the sort you're imagining that we want to be sure that when we look at some very exotic phenomena in the past of the universe, which has no parallel on earth, erm or in our vicinity, how can we be sure that the laws of physics that we've deduced on earth really apply?
how do we know that the laws of nature are not really like laws of a game of chess, but played on a chess board where the laws change as you go from place to place on the chess board, which is a very more complicated situation than an ordinary chess game where the laws are the same no matter where the pieces are.
and i think all we can say is that we can't be sure that that isn't the case.
there is no evidence that the laws are different in the past than they are today, that they're different in different places erm, but one can investigate the possibility.
it's possible to formulate theories of very simple aspects of physics where the laws or the strengths of different forces, say like gravity, actually change from place to place and make predictions as to what the observable consequences should be, erm and to a very degree of accuracy one concludes that the strengths of the forces of nature and the laws and the rules of the game are not changing from place to place.
they may be of course, but we may not have looked in the right place yet to find that.
i think it would be very exciting if they were changing, but i'm afraid one has to be a reluctant revolutionary at the moment — there really is no evidence for that view.
i think really what happens when you go into the past is not so much that the laws that we now use change, but we just find that there are many more new rules and particles and things that can happen, so the things that we know are the same, but there are many, many more different types of interaction and particle in nature which we have no experience of, which we have to take into account.
if we go back to the first few minutes, or maybe even the first few seconds, there must have been an incredibly high density of matter near that point?
yes, today the density of the universe is remarkably low.
if you were to smooth out all the material there is in the universe into a uniform sort of sea of particles, you would find that the density was just about one atom in every cubic metre, which is far better than the best vacuum that you can ever make on earth by artificial means.
as you go backwards in time, to say the first minute of the universe's life, the density is not absurdly high, it's only a little more than that of water, but the density of radiation is much, much higher — it's a million times higher — and the temperature is like the inside of a nuclear reactor, so one of the interesting things is that when we get back to just a minute, say, after the apparent beginning of the expansion, we're not yet dealing with any bizarre physics, we're dealing with conditions that we know and understand on earth.
however, if we keep on going, extrapolating backwards into the past, when we get to about a tenth of a second, or a hundredth of a second after the beginning, if we want to push earlier than that we've got to start using physics which we cannot test directly on earth.
we reach densities approaching that of the atomic nucleus, so it's about one hundredth of a second after the start that there is a real threshold.
after that we use ordinary physics that we know and love and understand, but before that time we're working with uncertain physics and uncertain cosmology.
but there is a bonus to that in that people hope that by testing their ideas about the uncertain physics, by building models of that early stage, that those models will have consequences for the things that get left behind in the universe for the present, and so they might be able to test their ideas about how matter behaves at very high density by using cosmology, and that's very important because we have no other way of doing it.
also, it's worth adding, it's a very, very cheap way of doing it.
john, what's the chance of finding intelligent life out in the universe?
low, i think.
i think one can put forward fairly persuasive arguments that there are no life forms a good deal more advanced than ourselves in our galaxy, simply because i believe that social and environmental and sort of curiosity value factors would have led them to reveal their presence in various ways.
it would be very easy for an advanced civilization to produce self-reproducing space probes, which would very quickly explore a large fraction of the galaxy.
there could, of course, be many civilizations similar to our own.
it would be very difficult to detect them.
i have rather perhaps eccentric views about this, i don't feel that we ought to be advertising our presence to external civilizations.
our experience of what happens one earth when very superior culture groups meet very inferior culture groups is rather alarming.
perhaps we ought to be spending time developing camouflage, rather than advertising our presence.
it's always an assumption that intelligence goes hand in hand with benevolence and high moral values.
i think there's probably a strong argument against that in human history, and i think we shouldn't naively expect these very intelligence creatures to be benevolently disposed towards us.
another interesting idea that has been suggested is that there are extra terrestrials who are very intelligent.
they haven't revealed their presence because our solar system is being treated rather like a nature reserve — that they don't want to interpose themselves and spoil a very classic example of study of a lesser civilization growing up.
but i think this is it's very close to science fiction — it's very hard to think of any biological argument which makes the probability of intelligent life evolving high.
astronomers tend to always think the probability is high because they think there are so many sites on which life could develop, but the biologists take completely the opposite view, that there are so many evolutionary pathways that lead to biological dead ends, that this outweighs the number of sites on which life could develop.
so i think the biologists would tend to say no, there is no advanced intelligent life probably in our galaxy.
astronomers probably lean towards the idea that yes there is, and there are currently searches, i believe, in the united states erm beaming signals with characteristic wavelengths, erm in the hope that extra terrestrials will see them.
lastly, john, one of the observations i would make is that a lot of astronomers i know are people who seem to have quite strong religious convictions.
is there anything about astronomy which makes people inclined in that direction?
yes, it's an interesting point.
i erm haven't done a survey of this, but from my experience of meeting people in different universities i do get the impression that there tends to be many people of a religious persuasion, whereas in the sciences of the very small, biology and so on, there is not.
of course the problem is whether erm people enter those subjects because of their religious interests, or erm whether their religious interest develops as a result of studying those subjects, but i think certainly in this country there are a large number of people who are christians and have a religious interest who are in the astronomical sciences.
this may also be because those subjects appear to offer fewer possible problems with regard to reconciling our behaviour, or everyday life, our origins perhaps, with other beliefs.
one is not going to run into any social or economic or moral consequences of quasars, but you will, if you work in dna replication erm and other areas of the physical sciences.
but i think, looking back in history, there has always been a erm strong erm religious motivation behind many of the past great scientists, like newton, erm boyle, maxwell, calvin — these are all people who had a very strong religious motivation erm behind their investigations, and if you look back in history still further, there is a strong case to be made that the reason why science was so dramatically successful in the west was because there was a strong belief in monotheistic religion, that people believe that the world had been created in an ordered way by a deity and so there really were laws of nature to be discovered, whereas if you study what happened in the far east, for example, in china, the chinese, you remember, were well ahead of the west in science at about the tenth century.
they had gunpowder and very sophisticated engineering devices well before the west, but one can document the fact that the chinese gave up science, rather dramatically, erm in subsequent centuries, simply because they lost faith that there was any underlying order in nature to be discovered, that it was their background religion and philosophy which led them to give up the idea of unravelling the structure of the universe.
they didn't think there was any law and order to be unravelled.
and then when you look back to the greeks, for example, here you have a culture that was dramatically successful in mathematics and logic and philosophy, but actually very unsuccessful in science, and there again you have a society which has nature guards erm and so nature is not a valid object for study.
you can't study botany if you believe in erm flower got .
john, thank you very much.
next sunday we shall be exploring another important boundary in science.
good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
on this occasion i can, without any distortion, offer you a very warm welcome 
to this, which is the thirty ninth in the series of great centenary lectures, which we inaugurated in nineteen hundred and seventy, which was very early in the life of the centre for continuing education.
as some of you will know by this time, the centre provides custom-build courses, day schools, residential schools and other projects, for thousands of adult students in this region — mainly at locations scattered throughout the area, towns and villages of sussex, but some here on the campus — and by so doing it tries to provide a strong functional link that helps to keep the university in touch with the community.
some might be tempted to say in touch with reality, but i think i'd prefer on this occasion to say in touch with another dimension of reality.
and we hope that the influence and the benefits are reciprocal.
now as part of all this, the centre is responsible for almost all the public lectures in the university, and we have been glad to make the open to the public at large, and therefore a very special welcome to those of you who have come in from outside.
now in planning the series of centenary lectures for this session, i was very delighted to discover that this was james joyce's centenary year, and therefore had the chance at last to promote a lecture on him.
personally i can almost almost remember the days when erm ulysses was a bound book only to be read in plain cover after having been smuggled through the customs at folkestone, dover or newhaven.
these, you might say, were the days of innocence, hypocrisy and prejudice.
i don't know whether they've gone.
i can even remember when finnegans wake was thought to be incomprehensible and the gentleman sitting on my right, george craig, is almost, but not quite, my contemporary at this university and i was genuinely delighted when he agreed to take on the herculean task of giving a lecture a centenary lecture on james joyce.
george, not unlike his subject, has spent about half his life in ireland west, north and south he tells me i said why not dublin and he says that's what i meant 
and the rest of his life in france and england, although i'm not sure whether what drove him from ireland was like that which drove his subjects from ireland — no doubt we shall see.
he has taught in schools and universities in ireland and in france, and is now reader in french in this university, having been here since nineteen sixty six.
i have it on unimpeachable authority that his abiding interest is the human voice — whether the one we hear when we speak, or the one that informs and sustains us whatever we read.
his specific professional concern is to have been with aspects of modernism, which is says is a loose name which covers the creative disruption of all certainties about what reading is, what writing is and what words can do.
he has written on malarmie , on puste , on beckett and on reading itself.
george craig on james joyce.
thank you george.
thank you .
the subjects of the great centenaries lectures are, unsurprisingly, as diverse as human achievement, but in at least one respect they can, by and large, be spoken of together with widespread, if not indeed universal, recognition of their greatness.
to adapt a famous phrase, ‘we may not know much about their art, but we know what we're supposed to like’ and the lecturer, quite properly, both confirms and extends this recognition, so that what we find is, again quite properly, something like celebration of unity.
it is a very good base to talk from and i would love to have it.
what i have to recognise by contrast is that even now james joyce, born a hundred years ago, brings not unity but division, nor does this division merely reflect some such crude opposition as highbrow and lowbrow, or even informed and uninformed.
it is, of course, normal that any artist who breaks with the patterns of the past should find a sharply divided response among readers at large .
the very words ‘modern art’ still carry by themselves a charge strong enough to disturb, dishearten, or even repel, some before they've read a line or listened to a note of whatever work has been given this label.
it is worth remembering too that the reactions of those who accept to go further and try the new are not always quiet indicators of preference.
here we may meet, may ourselves have felt anger, revulsion, even hatred.
‘you've got to draw the line somewhere’ runs the old phrase.
and so with joyce we might talk, say, of the manageable stories of dubliners and the still acceptable mixture of poignant retrospect and startling surges of feeling that mark the portrait of the artist as a young man.
but then we have to move with ulysses to a huge spinning-top of words which defies such judgements and leaves us clutching at apparently familiar images which so sooner appear than they are gone.
and finally we would come to finnegans wake, apparently mocking our very attempt to read by calling in question what is, i suppose, the most basic of all assumptions about writing, that whatever form it takes it will be made up essentially of recognisable words.
if then we have uneasy feelings about modern art, it looks as if joyce must confirm them a thousandfold.
yet, even here, there is a puzzle, a strange, unplaceable something which doesn't quite fit with that account of the gradual driving out of the reader and the suggestion of a steady shift towards the rare and the difficult, for i would guess that anyone not put off in advance by suspicion or hearsay, anyone that is who has got as far as dipping into ulysses, say, will have come hard up against things that are startlingly, even discomfortingly, recognisable.
words, of course, phrases, images, sequences, which connect with the very core of our inner experience, whether at its humblest or at its grandest.
and then again if agonisings about modern are seem to take us in one direction, the banning of books as reminded us, takes us in quite another, and we have to remember that for all practical purposes it was indeed a banned book for nearly fifteen years, from the twenties into the thirties.
we are not, we think, so easily shocked now by the naming of the ways of need and desire, and that label too will be a poor guide to the kaleidoscopic experience which ulysses draws us into.
here it would be tempting to assume, whether modestly or angrily, that there is another group of readers — the sophisticated, the expert, the professional, for whom such problems simply don't exist, or have long since been left behind.
these readers, the assumption might run, are at ease with the complexities of rhythm and vision, pattern and play, and united by this ease are free to discriminate more and more finally the detail of the smallest fragment or the structure or the entire work.
you may well think indeed that i'm wasting your time in calling this an assumption rather than recognising it as a plain fact.
the critical and biographical studies already written to joyce and his work would stop a sizeable bookshop.
more are appearing all the time, and nineteen eighty two will be no more than a particularly rich year for them.
and nor is it simply a question of numbers — among these studies are some of the subtlest, most ingenious and most penetrating essays written in our time, and the factor common to almost all, the naive or the clumsy as well as the brilliant, is the conviction explicit or implicit that joyce is an outstanding, indeed for some the outstanding, modern writer.
the status of his work for some approaching that of the sacred book.
surely here is, after all, that unity of celebration which earlier i claimed as missing.
not so.
i suggested a second or so ago that the ordinary reader, unsure of what to make of the shifting realities of joyce's writing, might defensively assume that no such hesitations would trouble the experienced reader, but that is far from being a homogeneous class.
among experienced readers, including those most passionately concerned with modernism, there are some for whom joyce occupies nothing like so central a position, some for whom the whole drift of the later work is radically misconceived, even a colossal mistake.
we are back again in disputed ground.
in the bewildering tracery formed by the work and by the claims and counter-claims that it has provoked, there is matter for a hundred lectures, and what follows is neither and attempt to summarize, nor a rival undertaking.
i want rather, by focusing on a small number of closely related questions, and simple ones at that, to suggest something of how all this came about and why it matters.
what i have to say would bear essentially on the four works named, and would be grouped round three notions which i shall call language as rescue, language as screen, and language as replay.
first rescue.
one sense of that is obvious enough.
everywhere in the stories that make up joyce's first major work, dubliners, we come across a double reality, an invariable focus on the precise detail of place and person, class and bearing, speech and gesture.
the kind of attention that we usually associate with love or hate, and at the same time an acute awareness of limits, of closed worlds, of helplessness, of traps of unsatisfiable longing — the sort of awareness that we associate rather with pity or fear.
even as we admire the sharpness, the delicacy, of the delineation, of this self-sacrificing old maid, that lowly and tormented man, this uncertain child — even as we admire, we see too the hopelessness that these so powerfully suggest.
but because it is a writer who is giving us this, and a writer at the beginning of his career, what more natural than that we should see him as writing his way out of all this, as ‘getting it out of his system’ as we say, clearing the ground for work that will enact triumphantly his escape, his liberation, his hope.
and again and again in the stories comes the hint of separateness, of difference, as if to confirm this.
say, from the first story, the sisters, a little moment like this one ‘it's bad for children’ said old cotter ‘because their minds are so impressionable.
when children see things like that, you know, it has an affect.’
i crammed my mouth with for fear i might give utterance to my anger.
tiresome old red-nosed imbecile.’
or again that difference seen the other way round, as in these lines from the last great story, the dead.
‘he stretched himself cautiously along under the sheets and lay down beside his wife.
one by one they were all becoming shades.
better pass boldly into that other world in the full glory of some passion, than fade and wither dismally with age.
he thought of how she who lay beside him had locked in her heart for so many years that image of her lover's eyes when he had told her that he did not wish to love.
generous tears filled gabriel's eyes.
he had never felt like that himself towards any woman, but he knew that such a feeling must be love.
the tears gathered more thickly in his eyes and in the partial darkness he imagined he saw the form of a young man standing under a dripping tree.
other forms were near.
his sole had approached that region where dwell the vast hosts of the dead.
he was conscious of, but could not apprehend, their wayward and flickering existence.’
the beauty of these words cannot entirely hide a sense of suggested differentness, of an essential something so far held back but pushing now to get out.
it is this sense which seems to be given the clearest possible confirmation in those moments of the portrait of the artist, where the brooding stephen, stephen daedalus , suddenly emerges from his vigilance in a lightening display of strength.
here, from the portrait, are two of them.
‘it's a curious thing, do you know’ cranley said dispassionately, ‘how your mind is supersaturated with the religion in which you say you disbelief.
did you believe it when you were at school?
i bet you did.’
‘i did’, stephen answered.
‘and were you happier then?’
cranley asked softly.
‘happier than you are now, for instance?’
‘often happy’ stephen said ‘and often unhappy.’
‘i was someone else then.’
it's a lot of money.
most of it was fresh produce.
really?
they, it's not gonna last, like, they're still b buying more and more of it.
it wasn't like all your basic items, or anything.
mike doesn't eat meat, so like, it's only like, slice of chicken, slice ham and stuff for maryanne.
most of it is fresh fruit and veg.
really?
there was some booze on there as well, but not much, so erm,
right, a lot of money though, isn't it?
yeah.
fifty pounds for two people.
mind you if he sees .
did you, what did you want on this, did you want some jam, is that alright?
strawberry jam?
have you got any butter 
erm, no i haven't, claire has, nick some of hers.
yeah.
i've got some marmite, and i'm just 
do you want some jam?
claire's got some vitalite, i think.
anything will do.
mike organized it, for me to go over there and then i didn't need to be there at all, cos noth nobody turned up.
ah.
so i've er 
i'm sure they're really grateful for you 
i don't think maryanne even knows i've been there.
you don't think what?
maryanne knows i've been.
no.
do you arrange it all, then?
i think, yeah, well he rang me, so erm, i think she was expecting, i think they, when they left the house this morning, he was thinking, he'd be able to get home in time for it, and erm, then he got to work and the day wasn't, hadn't worked out the way he expected.
and like, did you hear about that unexploded bomb, in the second world war, the two thousand pound bomb on the 
news last night.
no.
do you want tea or coffee,?
i'll have a coffee, please.
there was two thousand pound, second world war bomb, they found in walton, which is right near the river thames which is, like, past hampton court, and mike said that he'd have to go out there today, and it's er erm, this guy who he works for, owns a leisure centre right beside where this bomb is.
so he'll need to go down there with his associates and had to evacuate the leisure centre.
oh, really?
they just found this bomb and they were going to have a controlled explosion at the car park 
oh.
so, that made the day a bit more interesting, but he's been stuck with er, all these upper class councillors that telling him what his job is, and 
don't go down very well.
he said, he's not impressed, and er, i think the idea that go at a meeting today,
yeah, turn that power off before you do any more to that it's silly isn't it ?
erm.
yeah.
oh, buggery bollocks you take yours anyway,get on 
erm, so like all their ideas, on the erm, you know the ideas they were putting
yeah.
were that in, in the borough there's lots of like fallen land, like, you know, esher common and things like that,
yeah.
that they thought they could develop and hav hold events on, and er, he said, like we, we came up with some good ideas, put forward some ideas, really good ideas, for things to do on this land, and he said, the trouble is that all these councillors back on to these pieces of land, and he said, er, they don't want people coming along and enjoying themselves on it, because they want to go and walk their labradors on it.
oh, i see.
so it might disturb their neighbourhood, you know, so they weren't very impressed with his ideas.
ow.
so er, he hasn't had a very good day at work, a bit fed up.
but alfie's coming down tonight, and they're going out.
does he come down and visit quite a lot?
yeah.
does he?
he's his partner in crime, as he calls it.
do you think maryanne's alright about that?
oh yeah, yeah.
all friends together as it were.
yeah, no, that's doesn't bother her at all.
i mean, they've been on their own for weeks, so.
you know, at the w they like to spend their weekends with everybody.
yeah, they don't want to section themselves off, obviously.
i mean, mike was like, you gonna stay down and i was, i haven't seen anybody at college all week, so i think i'd better go back, actually.
but erm, i did tell maryanne if she wanted to go shopping tomorrow, i shall be around.
oh, god, yeah, i've forgot abo mind you emily's coming back tomorrow, isn't she?
possibly.
but she might not be back till sunday.
oh, i see.
do wh what do you, personally what do you think she'll do ?
what em?
sunday i would have thought.
really, yeah.
i suppose 
we've still got all day monday off as well.
true.
she ain't got all, to rush back for anything, has she?
no.
this is nice.
nice.
mm.
they're nice, aren't they?
now you know why you eat so many of 'em.
i wanted to get the wholemeal ones, bloody out in tescos.
the only thing, their bread's a bit crap in there.
yeah.
never get, you know, as big a selection as i'd like to get in there.
but, still beggars can't be choosers, they are cheap, they had loads of offers on them.
mm.
tins of baked beans, fourteen p.
do, what do they taste like, though?
well, i should imagine they're just the same as their normal ones, and they've stuck a, a whacking great white label on them, but i mean, you know, perhaps they're of an inferior quality, i don't know.
i haven't tasted them yet.
julia's had them and she said they were fine.
erm, well, rice pudding.
only 
i don't like anything like that.
i, i wouldn't buy it, but,
emily eats it for breakfast.
with jam on it.
mm.
why don't you like it?
not that i'd ever tried it, but, that sort of thing, semolina, and all that,
i hate it, urgh.
yoghurt, you like yoghurt, though.
mm, but, urgh.
i got erm, three of those, erm, you know, those diet, sort of, erm, what they called, you know the yoghurts with the two dips bits in it, you know, three of those for ninety nine pence, in iceland.
oh, that's good.
mm.
yoghurts are expensive, aren't they?
they are, that's why i got that offer for three big ones.
actually, they did have six for fifty nine p in iceland, but the date was up on them like, sunday, and i thought, i won't get through all the them.
once they start going off it's not really worth having them, so.
bought me trusted cottage cheese.
some parsnips, some carrots, cucumber, onion, apples.
didn't get the plates, i'm gonna get them tomorrow, it's too awkward to carry but i generally get nothing exciting.
just the bare essentials.
i've got masses.
really.
like, i've got half a pepper, and a piece of cheese and some, some kind of sp spread.
spreads.
erm, a loaf of bread i'm sharing with teresa.
two packets of cuppa soup, but i'm not sure that it wasn't cuppa soup, cos i've said to thomas, i'm not at the moment.
really?
erm, so cheese on toast, and cuppa soup for you, then.
probably be nothing, actually.
i eat, i went, when i went round to maryanne and my baked bread next door, i like i went down, i went in there before, before i went upstairs into the flat, and bought a, a roll for twelve p.
oh, yeah, that was good.
mm.
soft roll, and then erm, i had a viennese whirl with it, and i sat and had that with my can of diet coke that dad bought a can of drink on the train this morning and never drank.
did you have lunch in a park, did you say?
yeah, we had a piece of quiche,
that was nice.
and a hot chocolate,in this park in london.
it was really nice, we had a good old drive around,
mm.
hampstead, erm, round hampstead, round highgate, had to drive up there, it's so nice.
really?
lovely shops and everything, and er, it's all like round corners and everything, really, and some of these, dad's sort of, he marked the most that's open on sundays.
there, there's one street, it just like gaps and everything, like, you know, it's a really lovely road, you know, and erm, it's just a really lovely area altogether.
he showed me some really nice places, and then we went to this park, i can't remember what the park's called.
we stopped off there, had hot chocolate and a piece of spinach quiche, but i was, and erm, and he treated me, which was quite amazing, and then erm,
that was nice.
and then erm, we drove, er then we walked through this park, which was lovely, it had squirrels running all round the place and pigeons and everything, it was gorgeous, and, and because it, it'd been such a gorgeous day, it's just that my fucking nose is cold.
it's really bright.
so in fact, the sun is really hot, when you're in the car.
yeah.
so i, i erm, i had a lovely walk through there, and then we went out the other side of it, and it's highgate cemetery.
oh.
and, this cemetery is like, this, erm, george eliot's buried there, karl marx is buried there,
mm.
there's all these famous people that are buried there.
and er we didn't actually go in, but i'd love to go back one day and have a look,
yeah.
because like, there there's a picture of the gravestone of karl marx outside and it looks really amazing, and some of the places, some of these graves that have, some of the, like tributes, are just enormous.
really?
they're just so big, it's incredible.
you just can't envisage, you know, why and how they managed to afford such extravagant graves, and it's like on two sides of a road, on one side you can only go in, and if you're on a guided tour, erm, otherwise you've got to, be like, somebody to do with the grave.
really?
you know er personally attached to the grave, or go on a guided tour, and er, like you've got to wear certain bits of clothing, you gotta be like, you gotta be properly dressed, er, you're not allowed to eat or drink in there, there's all these things, like, you know, really 
into that.
yeah?
but it looks fantastic.
it looks, you know, i mean, it's to say that, it sounds really weird, but it 
yeah.
so mysterious and strange in there, that it would be really interesting 
been in there.
to have a look.
he's looked round some parts of it, yeah.
and er, like christmas, erm, they have these things on the telly when there's about, every, every night there's like a fifteen minutes' programme, just before the close-down, of like, b b c one.
one?
and there's people, like famous people of the telly just sitting and talking erm, and saying prayers every night, and walking around a typical area that means something to them.
oh.
and we watched it one night, and it was mrs hewitt off eastenders.
oh, really?
and er, she was really 
by michael aspel, weren't she, or michael parkinson?
between them.
yeah.
aspel tomato.
erm, and so, we had a good old walk around there, and like this place where she was, i swear it's highgate cemetery where she was talking,
oh, really?
and like she was pointing different things out about this cemetery, and, i mean, you know, you there can't be many cemeteries 
no.
like that in, in london and she was in london, but we missed the beginning of it,
oh.
and erm, mum was sorry that mark had been on about it, she said, oh i bet that's where he goes, and erm, like the park beside it was just lovely,
yes.
the whole thing, really, really nice area, and er, all just minutes away from central london, you know.
oh.
it was, it was really good.
had a really nice three hours.
and er 
oh that was nice.
then he's gone off to coventry, and then over to manchester.
so er,
it's quite to get on with your bruv .
yeah, because you know, we're always messing about, or around, or, you know, never like you know, together, really 
yeah.
because even when i go up to his place, like it's always been, like dropping him off, always being in a hurry.
i mean, i sat in his room, had a coffee today, it was like, i actually sat here and relaxed and always being on the move, you know.
yeah, yeah, always moving around.
i said, you know, i really appreciate it, i mean, the house is gorgeous, but you know, at the end of the day, it's so nice, he's so lucky.
is it?
and er, you know the people there.
the lady that he, he works for,sorry, the erm, she's, have i told you she does outside catering?
yes.
and she's doing the outside catering for the world champion, world chess championships.
oh.
so, like, schwartz, and is it kasparov, whatever they call him?
god knows.
erm, they were actually eating her food.
she thought she was up feeding the film crew,
yeah.
and she was actually feeding the champions,
really?
and erm,
blimey, i bet she's making a bit.
yeah.
been doing it for twenty days now, and erm,
she's what, say it again.
she's been doing it for twenty days.
really?
and they were all very impressed because she'd done twenty different dinners, in twenty days.
really?
they were given a different meal every day so erm, she was pleased with herself.
is she married, they got, was there a husband there?
oh, yeah.
he's a london taxi driver.
oh, really?
yeah, and they were married twenty five years on monday.
oh.
so mark said they were out celebrating after he cam and he's working for them next saturday, she's doing some kind of a function,
yeah.
and er, he's got to do the drinks.
oh, that's good, isn't it?
so he gets twenty five pound for the for the night, and he hasn't got to start until about nine o'clock anyway so erm that's, that's something for him to do, isn't it?
oh, that's really good.
yep.
erm, jay's sister, tamsin it's her twenty first on monday, so he was, like, write out her birthday card, right, and he was like, trying to write something funny, so he was constructing this thing, like reading it out to me, and half an hour when i first got there.
yeah.
and er, it was very amusing, but repeatable, half the things he wrote in it, and erm, it's very, it was very good, but, he is quite good at that when he sets his mind to it, it usually takes him about three days to do it, but he does like to er, write messages in people's cards.
and er 
he's a laugh, your brother.
he's a nut-case. up to him seems a it's mark, i couldn't believe it.
it was like, get on to those bloody phone people, he said, i was on the phone to them for half an hour, yesterday, he said haven't turned up, he said, and i organized m i work around and everything.
he said, and then i got you to come along, he said, and it's all for nothing.
it's always the bloody way, innit?
and i said, well go and pick the phone up oh, yes, we have got a phone, actually 
before you start whacking your breasts.
mm.
i haven't had a phone all week.
which it isn't the easiest thing, when you've just moved into a place, is it?
no.
i mean, erm, you know, at least we're all sort of easy walking distance of one another.
like we council with our daily contacts through college, but 
that's true.
like, you know, everyone's far away from them.
exactly, they 
quite a distance, haven't they?especially for emergencies.
it's worrying,
mm.
isn't it to think that
yeah.
someone can't get hold of you.
right, okay,my boudoir, i've just seen a few things together.
i should get changed, really, but i'll,
no.
what i'll do, is i'll if i give you my clean shirt, you take it round to yours.
if i want to change, i'll put it, the only thing is, if we do go up the bar, i think i'll be a bit warm, in something like this won't i?
yeah, that's the trouble isn't it?
but it's so cold out there.
i know, it's a bloody, it's such a pain in the arse, because you freeze to death, bloody getting up there, and then when you get in there, it's so bloody hot.
so start with what the hell which is really quite aggravating really.
sorry?
it's quite aggravating, innit?
mm.
right, she did take that book with her, didn't she?
yeah.
was she supposed to then?
right, lipstick, lipstick, lipstick.
lipstick on your collar told a tale on you 
really.
oops 
you need some more curtain hooks.
no, i don't.
no.
is that how many there were up there?
yeah .
or have they nicked some?
they they tended to spread them out a bit, about the house, you know, just willy-nilly, where they were wanted.
they're just normal ones, aren't they?
oh, i expect so.
i know, does look a bit silly, doesn't it?
they shouldn't be like that, we should, like, be able to pull cords and curtains as well gathering them a bit.
they are gathered even now.
you probably can do in that, i just haven't mucked around with it.
it just needs somebody to have a look at it, but i just can't be bothered.
time,
right, okay.
right, if i can just give this shirt to you, annette.
i'll get you a bag for it.
my hairbrush in there as well hmm, sort my life out for me.
what else do i, i don't need anything else, do i?
it's not raining out there, is it raining?
it's dry.
are you sure?
been dry all day.
okay.
probably start raining soon, erm
do you want to go and sit in the lounge, joanna?
yeah, okay.
sorry, er,
this is general, got me, got me microphone.
micro 
what you done ?
wrecking me house.
wrecking our house, sorry, yeah, i don't mean to exclude you.
so did you 
what is it?
oh what to record our conversation.
this is, this is the micro yeah.
this is the whatsit.
oh, no doing that.
oh, don't be stupid,
some of us have done it before.
erm, it's like nobody turned up.
it's like, hang on a minute, when we had our phone connected, none of us were up here for it.
yeah.
well, why, why er, is you know, somebody coming around.
so i said, mike, is there a fa something wrong with the phone, and he said, no.
i said, well, they're just connecting it then, and he said, yeah.
and i said, or he said, i spent half an hour on the phone, trying to study, he said, she was from ireland, he said, i couldn't understand a bloody word she was saying.
oh dear.
he was going on and on, and erm, i said, well, i'm sure that if you go and pick it up, it will be working.
so he did, and it was working, and he was so, they just connect it from outside,
oh, i see.
from the line box.
yeah.
and erm, so er, it was nothing to do with, like coming into the house 
oh,
to connect it.
so like, i didn't have to be there for the phone at all.
never turned up so
oh, that's a bit out of order, they often do that though, don't they?
where's your parents been then?
oh, erm, they're in cyprus, so 
oh, really?
i pick them up sunday.
sunday, it's really tight.
yeah, annette was hoping that she wouldn't have to work on sunday.
it makes the day disjointed obviously,
yeah.
because she's gonna pick 'em up, but she's got to work like you, slap bang in the middle.
yeah, mine, mine used to be something like quarter to twelve, didn't it, quarter to twelve till three, and then they decided to change round, it used to be quarter to twelve to six, didn't it?
mm.
whereas, we used to be open all day.
mm.
got greedy.
i'm doing twelve to three.
mm.
that's alright.
yeah.
plus.
i wish i was doing more hours, though really, cos like, i got to take the whole day for it,
yeah
i might as well 
might as well be there, till later, yeah, i know what you mean.
i mean, just for three hours.
do they give you anything to eat there?
no.
they don't seem to give you any, you seem to have as much tea and coffee as you want, or soda water.
lemonade.
lemonade.
or lemonade 
really?
it's all on draught so er, they have stocks and that.
but i mean, my dad always invites his staff to have a drink at the end of the evening and i mean, most of them have already been bought a drink during the course of the evening, anyway, so they're entitled to it.
but erm,.
so er, i think, i think like, it depends who you're working with as well.
think like, some of them, take 
yeah.
sort of 
yeah, there.
what ones can i take then, rebecca?
oh,well, let me have a look.
i don't think you'll find anything in that, you can have that.
what's it for?
they call it word book, and every week,
yeah.
it's a scrapbook, some, some of them went, what do you mean a scrapbook, and he was really offended.
really?
no, not a scrapbook .
a word.
it was, well it is, you, you stick in pieces of articles, into a book, you're collecting them.
just any articles?
well, they have to correspond to the lecture, so the lecture this week was, world population.
had to so it.
like the world,
and business?
the world.
yeah.
yeah.
and then, you have to get to about three to four articles on that.
i don't know where i'm gonna get them from.
and then 
world in 
it, it gets a bit easier, because they go on to like health, age, i know i'll be able to find loads to stuff on age, won't i?
world population, erm probably what i'm gonna have to do is, although they, they said you can't do it don't get any ideas about doing it with because it's not possible.
it is possible
mm.
cos if i find that i can't find something, i'll just have to look like 
keep looking as you're going along 
yeah, do you know what i mean?
so, that's what is.
and it's just like, and they want you to make some comment on what you've worked out, which is no problem really, is it?
do you know that newspaper that they brought out, the european, and it's like, just to, just to 
yeah.
take you through the whole of europe.
yeah.
like world issues, then,
yeah.
because 
i know the telegraph always have a lot of foreign, foreign news.
but that's what, but the sunday times has always got a world news section at the back in it.
oh, brilliant.
so there should be something in there.
i found something from the aids one the new benetton advert, have you seen that?
no.
is it really sick?
mm.
not really, it's a bit rude, i suppose.
it's of erm,photo coloured photograph of, it's either a bloke or a woman, you can't tell, from there to about there, so you can see all the hair and everything it's got on the skin h i v positive.
oh, i think i have seen it.
ah, that's terrible.
they're just out to shock, aren't they?
yeah, i think it's a good way, and, cos it makes people go, bloody hell.
and then they take note of what the issue is, yeah.
realize, don't they, yeah.
so i've got all ready, for me aids cos i used to just think oh i don't really, i could just go and get some leaflets on ban on 
true.
well, i must ad i'll probably end up going down there, and getting the 
our local chemist at home.
yeah, they've, they've always got this good stand, haven't they?
all this stuff, loads of stuff down there about pregnancy, and measles.
yeah, so they reckoned it's not a scrapbook, but it is really.
that's quite easy really, i'm quite happy doing that.
quite like that idea.
but erm, yeah, it's alright.
i like this girl, cos she's welsh, just, i can't do her accent, but she kept saying it several times, he was getting really pissed off with her.
he'd obviously taken time over building up this little booklet explaining the stuff.
she just destroyed it in one go.
really?
like he, he was like saying, it's got to be a the word book, will eventually he was really getting into it and really going into about, you know, how it's really gonna be jam- packed with important information, and she just said,so it's just like a scrapbook really you know, when if you've filled all that up
yeah.
and somebody said that.
it's like, oh yeah, thanks.
no, not at all 
and then the next bit, she says it again.
no, yeah, that scrapbook, yeah, that's not got to be in till later, has it?
he was really pissed off .
oh, you're gonna go down well.
yeah.
yeah.
but yeah, it's alright, it's okay but not a lot's going on, really, i haven't been in any activities for ages.
there's quite a few erm, posters up, asking you to go along to join, the netball fiasco 
you're not exactly erm,
no it's changed the er they've got quite a few plays going on, they've got chess going on
really?
with er, what d'ya call it, barbara you know?
oh, right, the musical.
have you seen about 
er, barbara dickson and elaine paige.
yeah, yeah that one.
they've got that one going on.
have they.
that should be quite good to watch.
and er, and they've they're out doing the rocky horror show as well.
surely erm, what's her face, er, jane was it jane?
no, she hasn't.
yeah, i don't know why.
how's she getting on with her drama, do you know?
yeah, she likes that subject, she not that keen on french, cos she thinks she isn't that advanced.
oh dear.
it's all completely in french, the whole lesson 
oh, that's a bit worrying, innit?
everything, once you go in there,
oh.
you speak french and that's it.
oh, that's really worrying, isn't it?
i shouldn't be able to do that, ah.
yeah, so she said it's a bit, cos she only got an e for french, and she's not very good at it.
oh god,
so, she is finding it hard.
yeah.
i bet she is.
so erm,sh i don't know, she might be alright.
she's not said about me being out of it, but erm, see if you do that, you see, you get a year in france.
really?
that's like your brother, he's doing spanish isn't he?
yeah.
yeah.
he's doing spanish.
is he?take a year out.
really?
start a new job as well,
yeah.
like he doesn't know if he's going on a bit at the moment, he's just wandering about,
yeah.
we'll see.
but i don't know what she's gonna do.
but erm, i haven't seen much of her at all this week, because erm, they've all been out, i mean, they went up to london to see miss saigon, and they were gonna go out for a meal up there, and
bloody hell, that takes some money, don't it?
yeah, but they've got it.
yeah, exactly.
you know, she's got fifty quid coming in every week.
yeah, that's true.
plus a grant.
yeah, she's well away.
has she.
she can afford to do that.
so they went up there and did that, and then, i ca they've done quite a lot and then they're going up london tomorrow, i think.
so i don't see much of her.
so you think they'll probably stay up there next weekend?
don't know.
i'll see, i might, might go out tomorrow instead of sunday.
i don't know yet, i don't know .
what's happening about your car, is craig going to take it back with him?
well, i suppose he might as well, i mean, if you're off work, he might as well have it, mightn't he?
yeah, that's true.
mm.
unless i feel like being really vindictive,
saying, i want the car.
no.
i don't need it.
i could have done with it, i couldn't get on the bloo they got this internal bus service that runs from each college, cos you have to go to the other colleges for your lectures, and i just sort, there's not enough, and you, you get turned away, and i just thought, i went for that bus tuesday morning, i was supposed to get it at eight fifteen, and he just said sorry,no more room .
oh no, so what happens then?
so, security guard came over, and if you go up to the next stop,bus, you could come in with them.
so we got on that bus, and he didn't like it, this bus driver,oh, you're not supposed to be on here 
what, because you hadn't parked your cars there first?
yeah, but the thing is, we're not from college, so that means their students are gonna be, like, pushed out.
yeah.
so anyway, we got on, and he
well, that's their problem, they should get more bloody buses.
yeah, yeah, yeah, the thing was, because it left about fifteen minutes later, at a quarter past eight, there was so much difference in traffic,
mm.
half eight, getting on quarter to nine, it was jam-packed and i didn't get into the college.
it's a ten minute bus ride.
i didn't get into that college until gone half nine.
oh, really?
to my lecture.
yeah, i didn't walk in till half nine.
the lecture starts at nine.
and the bus left at a quarter past eight.
hour and a quarter.
i could have travelled home.
yeah.
bloody hell.
honestly, it was just sitting there, we were just not moving.
well, you probably know what it's like, i was just sitting there.
is it, is your parking permit saying what college you're at?
yeah, i have to.
i'm not allowed to park in their colleges, other colleges.
see what i mean?
yeah.
so i can't drive there 
said you can't get on the bus either .
no.
that's what i said.
well, the good thing is, where southlands is, which is on the south which is a very nice area.
well, it's not that nice, but there's a hell of a lot of little roads, all around it, it's not a like roundtree is, is it?
it's just on a little main road, but it's situated almost in this housing estate.
they must say, god they must get pissed off with it, so i've already looked around, and there's loads of parking places,
mm.
there's no yellow lines, there's loads of little roads.
that's true.
i mean, i could park it there, if nicole didn't want to drive.
but the, the bus, the erm staggered.
you got a bus at eight fifteen, and you got another bus at one o'clock, and you got another bus at three o'clock, and another bus at six 
you serious?
and, and if you wanna come home, there's supposed to be a bus at half past four, and our lecture finished at quarter to four, so you like, three quarters of an hour to get to the bus, right, and then it didn't turn up.
so we had to wait for the next bus, which was six o'clock.
oh no.
it's a long time.
we were sitting like this, sitting on the pavement, with our umbrellas up 
imagine what it'd be like, when it's really cold.
and i thought to myself, oh gosh, just drive up there,
yeah.
it's only a ten minute drive.
yeah.
i picked the right time.
see that's the thing, if i wanna go and do my studying, i can't just go, i have to and, and dinner starts at erm, if i've got a lecture, my lecture is sort of one o'clock.
just before one o'clock and the bus goes at five past one.
so i haven't got time to get any dinner.
no.
see what i mean?
well, what about 
no.
so i have to get a bit, er jump on the bus, and then erm, either get something to eat at their college, but then, by that time, you see, cos dinner starts at quarter to twelve, it's all gone.
and we went there last time, and all they had left was chips and this fatty stew.
er, that's 
and that's it.
no veggies or nothing, no salad.
no veggies 
no.
oh dear
so, it's, alright it's not a major problem, but that's the only difficulty with it is it's not, it's good having the bus service where you don't have to pay, right, if you don't, like i didn't realize the bus went at five past one, and i was all ready to go, and er, it was ten past one, and i thought, oh no, so i had to wait till three o'clock.
do some work.
that's a bit silly really.
yeah, and then the next bus from six o'clock, is eight o'clock.
and that's the last bus home.
you would have thought these buses would 
it's only a ten minute, it's about a ten minute journey from digby to southlands.
fifteen to southlands to whiteland.
it's all round in a circle, it's not like then, i don't know why.
how peculiar.
yeah, it is a bit of a pain.
but the people who q t s course, have got a lot of work.
have they?
mm, much more than me.
i'm glad i'm not doing that.
really?
loads of assignments have been set already.
they're really quite heavily bogged down, and they were to do them all, er one day at school.
really, bloody hell.
yeah the teachers seem to do nothing do they?
really?
i mean, ann finished lectures, ann's finished lectures yesterday, she's a secondary teacher and she doesn't have a lecture again until after christmas.
really?
and she's got another two weeks off now, until she goes into schools and then she's in the schools full-time, but even so, she won't have, she didn't have exams.
she had exams last january, didn't she, and she hasn't had exams since last january, she won't have until next during june.
really?
and like, she has, like, although she's doing secondary teaching, she has it easier than anybody.
mm.
at this stage, anyway.
i mean, it'll probably get harder.
i wouldn't mind doing that, if there was, if i could do secondary teaching.
really?
mm.
but i wouldn't wanna do primary or junior, just 
well do, would you be, is it t t s, secondary, t t s, weren't it?
no, but 
primary 
well, in t t s 
t t s they can't do secondary.
only do primary and junior.
oh, no in, in our college they're doing secondary.
cos i asked them about it, and they said i'd much rather be doing that.
mm, yeah i would really.
small ones, i just don't think there's much, get much out of it get much, getting much out of it.
i mean, some, some people at our section which is four and five year olds.
it's not bad.
it's like being in a play-group, innit?
yeah.
it's like taking 
yeah.
but they don't, they don't do it.
mm.
have you found out when the 
yes.
when is it?
february.
you've got to have one before then.
that's when you said.
you've got to have one in november.
surely they did have one last year, didn't they their outing.
kerry would have had one.
well, i looked at my list and it says february, and i've got a list of my lectures for every week.
really?
yeah.
that sounds odd though, surely.
does have one?
next term's a long term as well.
is it?
we did agree to meet, but i don't same time tomorrow.
and i asked him i said, what does this reading week mean, and he went, oh, just do what you want, really.
cos i've got a reading week in three we two weeks, two weeks.
i don't know when it is.
i've got a reading week in two weeks.
yeah, i've got a week off.
oh.
well, i'll ask ian, they, they might not have told us, because, i don't know, they would have told us, wouldn't they?
they should do really.
i've got a list of every lecture on my booklet.
they give you a booklet for each subject, and i've got a list, a lec a lecture every week, until february, when it just says reading week.
oh, perhaps you have got leave.
it does seem odd.
claire has a lot longer term than us.
i think it's ridiculous, really.
mine are twelve week terms.
i think ours is only eleven, that's what we was told.
mine are twelve.
i thought it was thirteen, was it?
twelve, twelve and twelve.
could be.
no, it's not, it's not as long as thirteen.
yours is on eight.
you got an eight week term.
yeah, we've got an eight week term, the last term's eight weeks.
so long to christmas.
cos your the last ones aren't you?
mm.
what was i saying?
seems odd, i'm sure he showed me, he showed me a reading week before christmas.
that's like what i think mine says.
tight.
i'm sure we should.
mind you 
i'll ask him, cos he'll know.
perhaps i i should.
yeah, it is due, i'm sure it's due.
yeah.
yeah.
two weeks' time, we've got a week off.
i haven't even looked, cos i don't even, i haven't even thought about it, you know.
everyone else keeps going on about it, and all like, oh, i can't go home, cos there's not enough 
last year, reading week was, it seemed for ages, wasn't it?
it did, didn't it, yeah.
it seemed weird, it was so,oh, it's nearly november, i'm getting worried.
that's alright.
it's nearly christmas.
oh, that's alright.
half my year's gonna be gone, and i'm sort of, going for the third year, and it's really heavy.
oh.
it's going so quick.
but erm i'm sure you're right.
maybe i have done, maybe it's just not printing it.
they normally have one a year, they probably just haven't edited up.
we had two though, didn't we?
didn't we have one la in the second year,or something, i'm sure we did.
we didn't rebecca.
oh, didn't we oh, that's what it is, then, you get yours in february.
that's what i'm saying to you.
ah, bit silly though, innit, starting 
i'm sure we had another reading week.
oh, shit, you're just like me, you are.
i swear blue in the face that i'm right, and then somebody comes on and goes oh yeah.
well, put it this way, if it isn't on sunday,
it's a bit of a long time, because i come back january the fourteenth, fourteenth, and i've had all christmas off, haven't i?
so i'm gonna be back, like a week, you think they'd make it a bit more so i've done most of 
no, i know what i'm thinking of, i'm, if ever, i'm thinking of revision week, cos that was a week, we wasn't it?
yeah.
and then we had another revision week in june.
see , there's two revision weeks, and a reading week.
yeah, and 
and then what?
of all the things that the transport division 
mm.
really, i think they should give us reading week.
i don't know.
well, only because i don't get one, they give you a weekend.
still, can't complain.
no, shouldn't have done.
suppose to be a reading week.
i know, i know, i'm gonna be in it.
i've got so much bloody reading to do.
i've got loads 
has miss gone 
she's coming back either tonight or,
she gone home already.
she's gone home, yeah.
she went home last night.
she's not gonna be back here very long, then.
no, well she wants to go 
oh, i see.
all right, so she came back.
she wants me to go to the theatre though, i don't think she'll enjoy chekhov very much.
don't you?
no, i'm not sure i will.
i'm only going cos i got to.
no.
yeah, she's coming back tomorrow.
she's either coming back tomorrow morning or tonight.
aren't you going to the pictures tonight?
no.
thought you was.
too expensive.
i've spent too much money already so
did you get my message, then?
yes.
it's about an asylum.
he's a really nice chap.
is it her 
he was very young.
he was right along the end without a sink.
ah.
yes.
without a sink, he's got the only room without a sink 
he, he said, i said is joanne in, and he went, oh, i don't think she is, actually.
and i went, there's a message here for her, if rebecca phones, i went, yes, i'm rebecca, oh, right, okay.
you leave a message like, and it's like, erm, i'll pop over and see you,and i was like, i mean, he just paused for breath, and i went, well, what time, and he went, well hang on, the message hasn't finished yet.
so i went sorry, sorry, and he went, it's alright, and he went in, oh, thanks for that, thanks very much.
he went, okay, then.
he said, i'll give her the message, i tell her that everything's fine.
i said, yeah, tell her that i got the message, and that you know, it's all fine.
okay then, right, see you later.
bye.
i spoke to him last night as well.
i mean, when i think i was with my bags and things and he went,jo, the message has gone through, everything's fine i went,your sister, i relayed that little message which i thought was which i thought was rather comical, you see, and i said, oh did you, and he said yeah.
he said, everything's okay, she's got measles.
he's a nice bloke.
yeah.
he seems like fluid poems.
her and kate will come and see me at four o'clock and her and kate will come and visit you.
they will not be coming to the cinema, and i was like, what time are they gonna come, and he was like, hang on, i haven't finished yet.
four o'clock, and he was like read it and he oh,only fed ten p in and i got all the information that i needed to know.
yeah, i've written it all out in block.
mm.
he was only seventeen, wasn't he?
mm.
is he really?
yeah, i think he was bored with this.
how can you go to our while you're only seventeen.
that's illegal isn't it?
to be eighteen.
he's just turned eighteen.
yeah, exactly, with like me, late birthday.
well, very late, september.
yeah, he can, i mean look at shane, he's got a
yeah.
very early birthday.
yeah.
i'm getting bored with him.
mm.
but
so he is a year on, behind you rebecca, you get what i mean.
cos i know you've got a late birthday, and that.
he be, he be, they be, he'll be in the year below me, but his birthday will be like,mine.
yeah.
i see.
has your dad gone back home?
no, digs 
how's your mum cope with that.
is she alright?
he's only gone back for 
yeah, that's not long.
oh, god.
he's going to me erm, yeah, well, actually he wasn't really that drunk, was he, on saturday,
no.
saturday night?
but he was talking to me, and he said, he said ah how, how you getting on over there, and he went yeah, yeah, it's alright, you know, but it's not where i want to be, you know, away from me family.
i like being in with my family.
he said i like being in with me boys.
he said, and it's really good, he said, cos i'm, i'm celebrating my fortieth birthday, he said, and i ring my boys, he said, and they listen to the same sort of music i do.
he said, whereas my mum over there in the corner, he said, if she had a bash i had to listen to bloody frank sinatra, wouldn't i?
and i'd go, yeah.
it's like yeah.
he said, yeah, i like being home with the family.
he said, but i'm only going back out there another he said, so it won't be too long.
i said, yeah.
it's not.
fancy jane going and having a bust-up down the 
i'm not surprised, christ.
she's relaying all marital problems, to everyone, wouldn't she.
they're alike though, ain't they?
did you see her when she 
busting out of her dress.
erm, your, i think it was dwayne or was it, it's either dwayne, or erm, er bob knocked a glass over, and er,jane was like erm, trying to like, she was like going edward move away, i'm trying to sh i'm trying, look, i'm trying to stop people dancing round here, and like, these, all this, this er, glass on the floor, right, jane was standing there going like this, dancing round all this glass, and like she was going like this, and everyone that walked past, she was going,broken glass and she was saying, and she was, she kept on going broken glass, they done it.
and she's still dancing, it's really funny .
she's ain't she?
oh dear.
she started crying one 
yeah, i know she did, i saw her.
shouldn't keep smoking and fighting in the middle of the front room.
she was crying in the pub.
talking about how much she hated 
the bloke 
he's so drunk, he don't .
she goes,piss off .
yeah.
so they had another big fight down there, didn't they?
oh dear.
yeah, i went in the kitchen, and 
she was pretty upset, though, weren't she?
well, she upsets herself.
yeah.
she's a bit like that.
bit 
ain't she?
someone walked past her, and spilt all the drink down her front, that didn't go down very well.
trip.
bloody hell, i try and get bloody dressed up, should be looking, stupid sod, drunk, got drink all down me.
i think dwayne, just, he was, just wasn't, wasn't that interested.
can't blame him.
he was just, oh, it was funny.
he deliberately, i was standing next to him,he was just leaning on me.
that's dwayne.
just leaning on me.
you know that they all disgust me, and er, john went yeah, that's the sort of woman i like.
comes carrying a load of in her hand.
it was like, shut up.
he's a real prat, ain't he?
i was sitting there going,ha ha ha got a stuck.
i tell 
oh, lord.
that's a pint glass gone.
naked woman on it.
ain't it, it's like out of a porno mag.
it is bad.
i don't know how he got that on there.
the
it's not painted.
but when, when when the colour glass is full, she's got clothes on.
oh, really?
never.
yeah, when he drinks his pints, he knows 
i didn't see that.
good, ain't it?
really?
yeah.
it's like them pens you get at the seaside.
where do you get that then?
oh you think he bought the glass like it.
yeah, it's, it's just the same as that.
do you think he bought the glass like it?
no, i don't think 
yeah, but how could jim do that?
it's just a stick-on thing.
oh.
i knew before.
mm.
i think that's good, that is.
good laugh.
yeah.
so you, what are you going to do tonight, then?
go up the bar?
yeah.
i think there's a 
i ain't been to the bar 
weren't you?
oh, although 
haven't you?
no.
ah 
really erm, food.
it's something like it's called.
it's not have a shave.
i know it's not called have a shave .
oh, i saw a poster like that.
shaggy 
shag something, in our place.
it was a yellow poster and it had shaggy all on it.
but mind you, i didn't know what this shag society was about.
there was annie going,and our president was standing there going, aye aye, you seen this, tom, have you seen this?
she like, pointing to this big shag poster, and i thought, oh god.
what's going on here.
no, i think it's, it's a dis it's a disco, and it's got some kind of title, the shaggy party, or something.
i don't know.
shaggy 
i haven't seen it.
i haven't seen it.
the other one was called, erm, flip your wig.
oh, i saw that.
frank said that was really funny.
yeah.
seventeen afro person.
yeah.
yeah.
erm, so i think we're going to that crap.
i don't care really.
right on.
the drink's, the drink's cheap, ain't it?
well, it's not it's right i suppose.
it's not really cheap is it?
it's not at our place, though, is it?
isn't it?
not really.
else's is more, more subsidized than our, though.
yeah, ours is bad.
but it's still cheaper than a pub.
yeah, yeah.
so we'll have a couple of drinks and that's it for tonight.
mhm.
jane said that last week, cos i thought it was a disco, cos when it first described it me, it was real crap, and there was this colour guy and his friend, and all they wanted to play was black, they looked like they got no bones when they were dancing.
you know like, dislocated themselves.
it's really 
really, oh no.
and in fact, all they played all night.
the funny thing was, i find this really amusing, the bloke who was running the disco, he was putting loads of records on, then going dancing.
really, excellent.
how was he doing that?
yeah, he really did, and the record would end, and then he'd plonk back.
so they were just playing the music that they liked.
it was only those two dancing all night.
oh, what.
that's what made it so obvious, because it was, he would put the records on, and then come out and start dancing, and i thought i'm not going that no, they played that,sh what's it, shake, shake, shake the room,
bought that.
oh, she didn't, oh remember the other day,take that.
i didn't ask.
oh.
i didn't even supposed 
would it?
she said, yeah.
ought to see lounge, she's got take that disco, and take that 
oh, jesus, she's driving us up the wall.
she's trying to go out and get tickets to see 'em.
is she?
she's got tickets.
that's the trouble, but we got a note through the door this morning from our friend kerry.
don't buy the take that tickets.
i'll explain later,and she's last night .
oh no.
i think it's really funny, cos it's thirty quid she's spent on two tickets, and she's telling us, she's got no money.
she's spent fifteen quid on her tickets for the concert.
oh, shit.
she's bought the c d of them, this week, and i'm just like, oh my god.
does she really like them, then?
well.
i think she's somebody that just like, has to go with the flow, with what her friends are doing, and all her friends back home are really seriously into them.
really?
i just think what a load of rubbish.
how old is she?
she's twenty .
blimey.
yeah, but i thought take that was for twelve year olds.
well, it is, innit.
yeah, likes a bit of take that.
she don't.
she does, that's the kind of thing she likes, fred, innit?
ah, she's sad, ain't she?
oh yeah.
i bet kerry likes them, don't she?
she is a sad person, anyway.
that's true.
too true.
does kerry like take that any more, or has she gone off them?
i don't know really.
trouble is 
you don't communicate any more, do you?
no, she's a bit odd, kerry, listening to the rolling stones and u b forty.
bit out her ain't she?
especially at the volume she listens to it.
i know.
listens phworgh.
really loud?
yeah.
yeah.
really loud.
really loud.
much louder than anybody else.
you have to go and knock on her door, cos she can't hear you shouting.
is it loud ?
yeah.
she's got to, to, i mean, she could have it that loud at ten o'clock at night, she just doesn't, she doesn't think.
she doesn't realize that everyone else is in bed asleep.
and, and the telly on as well, cos every night i come everything going.
including the hairdryer, just 
oh dear.
she didn't look very happy at your party did she?
no.
great big coat on, must have been sweating her eyeballs out.
i kept telling her to take it off 
she said it was new, so 
but she said, i can't be bothered.
she's this massive big coat on, and i said to her,sh i said, she said, i said you alright, kerry 
she's too much yeah.
big ain't it.
makes her look even 
it's really massive innit.
yeah.
lisa had one of them for a little while.
yeah.
i hated it.
coats.
it's what they go for, i suppose.
yeah.
i suppose so.
it's all the fashion, innit?
yeah.
rather be spivvy.
on the back of his it's just so sad.
cut as well, innit?
i know.
my brother, oh, it's sad.
my brother's got this mate at school, called victor.
he's got a pair of shearing scissors and he's been doing like, this boy's african, so he's got, you know, afro hair, which you can do curly-wurly signs on the back of him, it looks pretty neat.
but ryan decided that he'd have his head shaved at the back of his head, so he got this boy to write his name on.
it shows you how thick this boy is, he wrote on his name, he spelt it r i e n .
rien.
and this is really sad, and he told me mum that he'd been to a hairdressers and done it.
oh, did he?
yeah.
how did you know it was his friend done it?
cos of nat cos natalie, she's a right little squealer, she is.
i don't, natalie's samantha's sister.
erm, she, she at school with ryan,
i don't suppose the hairdresser 
in the same year.
well, my brother had a smack, cos natalie tells her what ryan's been up cos she's a bit like that, erm, likes to sort of erm, squeal, you know.
she said, have you seen ryan's hair.
i said, yeah, and she went ah, she went, victor did that.
i went what ?
i went, is this this well hard bloke from brixton, cos ryan keeps going on about it, like we i said, is he do, i said, oh, we went to oxford street today, and he went, is that anywhere near brixton?
i went i don't think so, ryan, and he went, ah, cos i wanna go up there, it's well hard up there.
i thought, why he's saying that, and then i looked, and victor comes through now, and he went, yeah, i wan he goes, i wanna go up london and get some clothes, get some really stylish stuff up london, i was like, yeah, ryan.
i said, you only get a bigger selection, that's about it.
he said, no you don't.
victor says.
and i thought like ah, and then mum sa i told mum, and she went you bastard, he told me that he gone and went to the hairdressers and done that.
she went, right i'll get him, and i went, oh don't mum, i said, don't embarrass him.
do you know what she said, she went, what, i'm gonna bloody see that victor.
i went,no you're not i said, don't do that, it's not nice, mum.
i said, you wouldn't like it.
she went, oh, she went oh i won't, i'll just wind him up.
and ryan came in and she went oh, she went, i just learned who did er, your er little bit of hairstyling there ryan.
she went, he's pretty good with a pair clippers, ain't he, old victor.
well, i went ha ha ha and she went, yes, i have heard, and he went, yeah, well, well, well, i mean, he just didn't how to spell my name.
and she went, you wait,mu my mum went 
she gobbled him up with it.
yeah.
my mum went, you wait till i see victor, she said, i'm gonna bloody have him.
right, see ya, what are you gonna do after 
erm, bye-bye 
you've finished?
i don't know.
i don't know.
well, we w 
what time do you finish?
well, we finish at nine, but er, might go up to the bar.
well, i tell you what, if you walk over to annette's.
if, if you want to go to the bar, walk over to annette's after you've finished, because we probably won't go up until about nine, half nine, would we, and then we'll go up with ya.
well, we'll wait until you come round, and then decide what to do.
okay,
yeah, that's a good idea.
and then you know, if you've coming back, i'll drop you back home.
thank you.
rather than walk back on your own.
thank you.
have fun.
yeah.
bye.
see ya.
bye.
see you later.
oh no, she's got to walk round with him.
the thing is, you can't really, you couldn't sort of see this jagged mess.
he's made a right mess of it.
he shaved up the back, hasn't he?
it's odd and even.
yeah, but, yeah 
and you get this, this bit here 
he's all shaved, his hair come back over it.
see like, long hair here, so it's hanging down, scraggily,so you've got like a shaved head, with all these bits here ain't ya?
so it covers it up a little bit, but it looks like he's gone bald.
no.
because he's like, long bits of hair, like this thick, hanging over, a shaved head,and you know, you know tina, you know tina turner, you know her husband kept on going like this all the time yeah mine does that all the time yeah, i go oh pack it in.
like peter, you know, he does all this, like he keeps going, oh show it to me, i can't i'm trying to grow it.
i'm trying it down, like, so it's round here.
do you think it'd be good like that, and i went, yes ryan it'd look much better.
cos he keeps growing his hair, to sort of there, and then he has it cut off, don't he, he's shaved.
cos he has to have it undercut, cos that's hard.
he's full of being hard, isn't he, ryan?
he is, ain't he, just full of it.
oh i've got something, erm, peter's in prison,
oh no, really?
three years.
you're joking.
no.
really?
i when i went, you know when i went down, do you remember i told you that i got caught up with him?
yeah.
and like i went down for that one monday.
yeah.
and erm, i knew he was going to prison.
it was for something that happened about five or six years ago.
he was in a fight with these erm, squatters.
really?
and it's taken all this time to come round.
yeah, yeah, and now it's come round
three years.
three years er three years, five years if he misbehaves, and clayton,you say, eighteen.
yeah 
two years if he's good.
bloody hell.
i mean, he's been into court but not for that long.
it's more of a shock, because, yeah, i know, because nobody knew.
we thought he would just get like a, a community service 
from lee.
i don't know.
i didn't know from lee.
jim phoned me up and told me, he was like upset.
oh, shit.
oh dear.
it's sad though, because 
what has his mates done.
we're collecting loads of things for him to keep him occupied.
like drawing books and that, and pencils,you buy him trains and stuff.
what a waste of time, cos he'll only sell them for things he 
yeah, course he will.
it's like, it's ge you know, he's really upset about it, but i'm just thinking 
be different if you can do that.
yeah.
yeah, he's really upset, i feel sorry for him, cos he's been upset about it, but
oh dear.
that his brother lied to him,like that .
yeah, but he don't know that, does he?
i know.
he thinks his, you know, he thinks his 
i wonder how julia's bearing up, even though it's all broken up.
yeah, he does, he thinks it's another just that he has a little drink now and then.
now and then.
just a few, yeah.
just a few, just a tipple.
oh, dear.
mm, so.
better not let ryan find out.
no, why's that?
you know what he's like.
big mouth?
yeah.
he'd be on about it.
he won't find out, will he?
no, i know.
but it's just ryan really, anybody that's in any shit, ryan really aspires to.
oh yeah.
like cos he was asking me about shane 
was shane good at school?
did he, did he used to be naughty and i was like, i don't ryan, and you got, i bet he did.
you know, anybody, and like, he sees, if he sees erm, who else does he 
relief fund.
there's a poster up in erm, and these two people that are drug addicts, and said like,did you see that i'd drawn a pair of ears on one of them, turned around and seen shane and he's like his mate was the other one, weren't it?
ryan loved that .
have you seen that poster.
holy communion.
poor boy.
don't tell him blue eyes 
oh dear.
i know that's not funny, but, it is funny.
it is 
ryan just revels in anybody who's been naughty, he think he really is spite which i think is a bit frightening in a child, really.
it is because he'll be 
yeah 
looks to just led into 
yeah, he is, he's very easily led, ryan, you know, and he's very into, you know, getting on with the gang.
which is really sad.
but erm, he's a little shit.
called me, he's called me a college crappy, he goes why don't you go back, he goes, why don't you go back to college, you college crappy.
he went, you're just a drop-out, you're just sponging off the government.
i was like, shut up, ryan.
he's like, i know your sort.
fourteen.
yeah.
but the sad thing is, he's got he's got quite a bit of brain, ain't he, to come out, you know, little things like, although they're rude, he's obviously aware, but he's wasting it all, ain't he?
i know.
quite intelligent.
it's like, what was he, he was going, oh that's right,he keeps going, i can't, but they're cold now but he was like, at the dinner table once, right, and ryan and gran argue continuously, and he was going erm, and he went, gran, and gran went, yeah, and he went, do you know what you are, and gran went no, and he went, well, i can't remember what it's called, he goes, they're this, i think it's a hybrid, he goes, you're a hybrid.
he goes, do you know what one of them is, he goes, it's just sort of like evolutionary thing between the ape and man, and he goes, it's sort of part way between, and it's sort of like some sort of creature, and it's half like an ape and half like a human, and he goes, and you're one of them he goes, you're one of them gran, he goes, you've got a brain like one of them, as well, and gran just like went oh shut up ryan.
she doesn't really know what to say.
oh, shut up ryan, and then he sits there for a bit,and she goes, yeah well, you used to wear national health spectacles.
ha ha ha and ryan goes, oh shut up gran.
but he's like, when they think they can get any little thing they can think of to wind each other up.
it was so amusing.
but it just go ryan is, you know, he's a bright boy.
yeah, i know, it's sad ain't it?
but like,mi miss said to me, when i went up there, she said, ah i know, she said, you hear a lot of bad stuff about ryan, she said, but he's a nice, he's a nice little boy really, and she said, he's very polite, he's very polite, he can be very polite to you.
she said, and a lot of the time, she said, he's a, he's a little sod, she said, but you know, she said, i mean, it's not all bad things about him, and i said, i've been hearing things about you from miss , and she oh, what she's been bloody saying, i bet she's been saying i'm crap at english.
yeah well .
i said, actually ryan, she had some good bloody things to say about ya.
he sort of went, ha ha, and shut up.
oh he's a little sod.
he's, he's funny but it's not, cos if ryan's, he's not going to get anywhere, because he's just a little shit, basically.
mm.
do with him?
yeah, he is funny.
like, what if i opened the door, right, he didn't know i was coming home, he went, he looked at me and went, what are you doing here, i went, oh thanks ryan, and he went, no, no i didn't mean it like that, i was just a bit surprised to see you like.
i thought, yeah, yeah.
i mean, he's all, i mean he walked in the door, he was, i'm coming down the garden, and erm, he walked down the garden and he'd seen me, and he started really smiling.
ah.
you alright, and ryan was giving it,janna, what's he the janna, the janna,
the janna's here.
the janna's here.
my janna.
my janna's here.
i was here.
take your shoes off, wouldn't she?
try and get your shoes off.
take 'em.
mm.
she said, let your friend sit here.
she said, he is your friend.
yeah, but she, she calls him, it's you're her daughter.
yet everybody else you who you are, and kate is my daughter.
mum says it's not your daughter.
you know, i think if we confused her one day,
yeah.
we kept asking her,if like she said, if you said to her, where does joanna live.
joanna lives in her house.
joanna lives with my aunty jill, i said, you know,
yeah, but she's got a bit of a problem with that.
because there's so many.
she keeps on about all the time, every time i'm there.
where you going now.
whose house are you going to.
it's almost like i'm a refugee i felt right i'm like, you know,
when you go home now, to which house?
where are you going.
we were walk walking to erm the, down the high street and a plane went over, and erm, i think mum must have been saying to her about aunty jill being on holiday, and she went, ah, there's aunty jill in the plane going to the city.
it was really funny.
i said, where did she get that from, my mum went oh i don't know.
she went, yeah, my aunty jill's gone to the city, she's gone to a city.
and then she said to me, and then, when i was going, she went to me, would you like to come on holiday, i went, then she went, because of me and mum and dad, we went another day to holiday, we went to beach, and er, mum said, that, yeah, mum said that she was saying, erm, to her, why, why is it not, what was it she said, about the weather, mum was moaning saying it was cold, and she went why, why aren't we go on holiday, mum, and mum said we can't, we can't afford to go on holiday, and she ah, why don't we go to seaside when it's cold.
mum says cos it costs lots of pennies, she went ah, another day, we'll go another day.
it's really funny.
she's got no concept of time.
no, she hasn't age, because she thinks she's she's been a big girl, and she's now a little girl.
that's right, yeah.
she thinks she's er, when i was like you, when i was a big girl,
yeah.
i did things like that.
yeah.
whereas not i will do things like that when i get older.
yeah, she thinks that she's been big already
yeah, when i was, er she says when i was as big as rebecca or when i was a big joanna, it's always the name.
what did she say she did 
just like,
got something on, or you got something.
yeah.
yeah.
i had one of them
yeah.
when i was a big girl.
yeah.
i had some like that.
like, like little lies, sort of, you know, she sort of pretends, that's her pretend role.
yeah.
well, yeah, i suppose it, yeah.
yeah she, she does that, don't she?
she's got this erm, dinosaur, that she like, tied a, a la a bootlace round, this luminous bootlace round it.
she dragged it, drags it around, and it's called, erm, little frog, what is it called?
little froglet dog, little my little froglet dog, that's it.
froglet doggie, it's called or something.
i think that's what it's called, something really funny.
and she calls it my froglet doggie.
and you say, who's this, she's says, my, this is my little froglet baby big doggie, or something like that.
she puts it in, and you ask her all questions about, she tells you it about it, and it has to be, and it only drinks orange squash, cos that's wh what only marie only drinks.
marie only drinks orange squash.
she goes, it only drinks orange squash.
what's it have to drink?
orange squash.
yeah.
and likes your light on when it goes to bed.
she does.
if you go out and switch her light off and leave her in the room.
come back and put my light on .
really?
i don't like it in the dark .
you can, if you go up there.
you've done it, she's had to get out and put it on herself.
you put my light off, i don't like that, you put my off.
my mummy doesn't like that.
that, yeah.
i tell my mummy of you.
mummy bit of a squealer.
yeah, i suppose she has to be with ryan 
ryan tried to push her down, and get her to fall downstairs the other day.
no.
step one forward more, edging her away, telling her to balance on them.
not very nice is it?
they're little shits like that.
ah, but then there's quite a big gap though, really.
oh, yeah.
it's hardly surprising.
i mean, mark used to pick on me rotten, and he was only four years older than me.
yeah.
so, like ryan's, what, nearly ten, ten years older than her.
mm.
yeah, i'm sorry, yeah.
well, ryan's not 
he just gets stressed out with her.
he does, he does.
niggles now and then.
yeah, she, she.
like i've him at, watched him a few times, she goes,get off he says,what 
yeah.
he's old enough to carry it off,but me mum says to her, now erm, she says like what, what do you do marie, if he's annoying you, and she goes like that she goes ryan's 
yeah.
he's like,no i don't she's like 
leave her alone.
do you want to go and get something to eat, then.
i know you're all hungry.
yeah, i've got to go out in half an hour, actually.
have you?
yeah.
what shall we do?
got to go and sell some tickets.
ah, it was alright, er, it was a bit, david did a good performance, erm, and there was this boy in the first year, and he was apparently been turned down by lambda do you know who lambda are, i don't even know who they are.
was it rada?
no, it's not rada.
it's lambda i think it's like rada.
and he's meant to be really hip shit, shit hot good.
but erm.
well, if he was turned down by rada he can't be that good, so
erm, he acts like he think he is.
i don't know whether he was turned down by them, or he turned them down, or something, i don't know.
he's meant to be really good.
and he was a little, he was like,try really trying to prove himself as an actor, i don't know, bit over the top,
oh god.
and i thought to myself, oh god.
yes, yeah, he's that sort.
but that's not so bad.
the good thing about it was,it was only on for about an hour.
excuse me.
an hour and a quarter.
was it?
yeah, which was good.
ah.
so erm, that was quite good.
because it didn't last very long.
but it was after so it wasn't really 
yeah, too taxing.
no, it wasn't too taxing on the old brain.
mm.
so no, no, it was alright.
erm, got back here about quarter past nine, which was great, cos it meant i could watch one foot in the grave.
and that 
that one really annoyed me last night, that did.
did it?
i can't stand it, i felt sorry for him.
i end up feeling sorry for him every time i watch it 
yeah, i do.
do you watch that clive?
no, i don't 
oh, it is good.
what about absolutely fabulous.
did you see that?
yeah.
and do your exams on the first of our work in june.
bells!
usually write about, the best thing, now if you call the register erm here.
in the classroom?
classroom.
actually it's behind liz.
yeah, it's here.
yeah me.
okay.
cairan 
so, but we've gotta find it out.
why?
so erm 
it's intact.
okay.
further announcement is that due to popular demand there are four extra tickets for the winter's tale.
so, if you didn't get your act together last week and you want to go to the matinee performance of winter's tale on the third of november .
erm
the tickets were so they want tickets but they haven't actually sent any money, so if you get in before them erm, you can have the tickets.
especially whoever pays their money first.
it's five pounds thursday the third of november, a matinee performance of a winter's tale.
there's er already about twenty people going.
erm i have the other .
erm if you want to come along to it's a black comedy.
ya.
mhm.
cairan?
yes?
difficult aren't they?
aha.
that's why i'm gonna say now why?
what makes reading johnson so difficult?
the language.
okay.
i don't know what, we can just talk about the language
you have to look up every second word.
okay.
well i guess, look at every second word.
what what bothers you?
it's just, it's just so erm specialized.
right.
okay.
cos it's specialized.
and by that, you mean?
well just well if, because it's all a lot of it's to do with this alca alchemical 
okay.
alchemal whatever it's called.
specialized.
the process.
mm.
which i'd know nothing about, er but just highly specialized in itself.
yeah.
and every, every word that i stumbled on
mm mm.
and when i looked it up it had about six other words to go with it.
yeah.
d'ya know what i mean?
and, and obviously it was ridiculous, every second word i was having to look up and then i'd get all that and it moves onto the next one.
yep.
which is ridiculous.
anybody had 
this experience?
erm okay, the first word was erm it talked about alchemy.
any other problems with the language?
either other areas where it's very specialized and you had to look up words, or other difficulties with the 
yeah.
language?
it's not everyday english.
it's not everyday english.
what at the moment, at th right, so a lot of, erm
yeah.
ah but that is a good distinction.
stereo.
erm ahead in the sense that
yeah.
we're used to a lot of shakespeare's archaisms because he was studying them at a level and shakespeare's got so a special sort of band of them that he uses.
even so, i they can go and look up that lot of words in shakespeare.
but johnson they're often old words that are totally out of use erm and we're not even used to johnson's vocabulary because 
it's not taught in schools.
at least not part the mainstream part of our culture.
any other reasons for the language difficulty?
or that the speech is difficult or the, any, any reason that there's a, a page that's difficult to read?
er, it strikes me with the, with the comedy, he's trying to be so funny that he shoots off at all these angles and not having 
aha.
left, sort of boundaries.
okay.
so erm well, you might like to say that 
mm mm mm mm.
he's very fast er, deduced comedy.
there's a lot going on at a very fast speed.
which makes 
well i thought it was quite farce like.
sorry?
i've seen the play and i thought it was quite like a farce.
you know 
yeah.
like
okay.
but 
this is rather what what it, makes it difficult is that i had a copy as well farce right, but don't say farcical.
that's got different meanings.
er, like farce okay?
as in this.
any other things that made it made it difficult for you to read?
so it's only the language?
the language, if it had been translated in modern language there'd be no, no problem?
were there are any reasons?
it's supposed to be a play, i suppose you have to watch it.
when we were reading it i found that i was just reading it as a book and the and that all the coming about you forget who's in, who's there and who's not there.
yeah.
right?
yeah.
more, again, much more by the shape of it, an intensely visual dramatic play, that relies on you being able to see
spatially in terms of space on the stage.
people knocking on doors, people hiding behind things, people coming on in costume.
you know, on the page you can't work out why erm,is suddenly called erm nuns, somebody called the captain, you know, you, you, you think these are three different characters.
on the stage you wouldn't make that mistake, you'd be able to keep track of the identity.
so, another reason that just adds that is the element of disguise.
in shakespeare you know, you haven't got that many disguises going on.
and, you'd be able to get one laugh, that's the idea.
it's a modern gag idea that you know, violet dressed as man or but in, johnson ha there have numerous kinds of disguises, each 
mm.
to different effect.
each calling different people.
okay?
right.
we've got some idea as to why, why we found it difficult to read.
which also help us understand the kind of comedy altogether, erm that .
let's see if we can refine those like us looking at the first two lines of the play.
erm
okay.
we'll read them through and pause for a while and try to think of the, also in terms of the physical, you know, erm staging.
erm okay, who's gonna be face?
i'll have jo as face i'll have monica as sottle, and we'll have mia as don.
okay?
just the first 
mhm.
ten or twenty lines.
right, off you go.
at least i will.
how are your wits?
why don't you run for us?
oh don't be ridiculous!
what to do, a little bit of pantomime.
ro rode out of the woods tonight.
no don't keep suffering .
forever while she breathes i'll go and see and fetch some water, will you come?
will you have the ?betrayal.
hark!
i hear somebody.
yeah.
i shall mar all of that he has made and foraged.
this way!
this way!
why?
who am i then my love?
who am i?
i'll tell you, since you know about yourself.
did you know ?
yes she belongs to time not long past.
the good honest that kept your master's worship house when he requires .
will you please go out?
since translated so that i'll be the captain.
by your needs such as those .
with the amount of my money all this must .
.
okay, we'll sto stop there.
now even in that had a fairly dry reading through.
are there any things you want to add to that list, just looking at that?
di different language and er, and what's going on.
yeah.
in i think the people were speaking faster.
alright.
you, looking through it and almost laughing at the .
right.
i think that almost , we've got another aspect of erm comedy, comedy it's really on the basis of arguments, fighting complication between people.
which, as you quite rightly say you really need to hear, hear the voices going on.
and i'll get some people 
along the middle in a moment and, and do it.
any, any other things?
did anybody snigger on anything
no.
in those thirty lines?
come on, there are rude words in there.
i mean
i grinned at farts.
good!
okay.
brunt, and a bit of a at the moment.
erm
i mean shakespeare did not, correct me if i'm wrong, use words like fart and, certainly doesn't use words like fuel gauge, have a leg over things like that, and things like, okay?
so it's rude language.
which is funny.
i mean, we are all er very sympathetic at the end of the twentieth century, but, you know, we can still laugh when somebody says fart on stage.
erm there are other examples of that.
you'll be glad to know that in line four and five,what to do?
lick figs out of my he's actually saying lick piles from my and, you know the audience replies fig fig .
and the actor could, you know, draw attention the part of the anatomy he's talking about.
i mean, this is not 
this is not his sense of humour but it is visual, it involves the audience.
like, if you break off a line like, lick figs out of my something, you're getting the audience going because the audience is supplying the rude bits.
okay?
any other things that were a problem about that clip?
okay.
forget that funniness.
why is it different from shakespeare?
what's the difference between that opening scene and say the opening scene in twelfth night or winter's tale?
were they di different?
there's no asides view.
right.
that's another problem actually i hadn't thought of that.
it's all but everybody's erm everybody's involved from the word go, so and the structure the so think about that point.
no, are no asides.
erm i suppose there are later on in the play er th characters speak to each other and say very good that stupid berk over there kind of aside, but what you don't get is any structures of characters as such.
you never get told what different characters are like in th er by somebody else.
you don't get introduced to characters, you don't plunge straight in.
er yeah, i have thought of a very different one.
i mean they don't, er, in the middle of things.
you're not really given any background either.
yeah.
so
shakespeare always usually gives you a bit of you know, you just got the two gentleman speaking clear and .
yeah.
exactly.
and we accept those things.
you know, give us a chance to get into the play and get comfortable on our feet and we'll have a go, well, johnson doesn't give you that option does he?
it's straight in there there's a fight between three, two men and a woman, you don't know what's going on, they're just abusing each other and and the picture 
is there.
now johnson it brilliant for doing abuse.
there's this wonderful put down.
i'll have please.
. erm okay.
so in a very different world to that of shakespearean comedy, a must harsher abrasive world erm again th that bit where she's ge get , do i get the impression that most of you found yours much more difficult to get into
yeah.
than shakespeare?
yeah.
mm mm.
yeah?
does anybody have this ?
er, mm
erm, i found it was like reading shakespeare when i first started reading shakespeare.
yeah.
cos it's i think, different types.
yeah.
you get used to shakespeare.
yeah.
it's, it's, you get used to the way he works.
okay, i think, i think that is, that is a point.
again, that came up this morning as well.
that 
shakespeare's so central to our heritage i you learn him at o level, you learn him at a level, you get used to him.
erm he's part of our language and, and therefore, you know, to go on to johnson it's very different.
like you say, it takes much more time to get into it.
but i think johnson does make it harder for us.
there are no characters to get involved with as the there are in in shakespeare.
we can't really imagine ourselves you don't really have sympathy for any of the characters in the .
they're all fairly sort of silly characters.
whereas in, in twelfth night or whatever, we might actually feel involved within the, the people in the play.
certainly .
okay, well i'll leave all those up there.
erm can you look at scene, act four, scene five in my edition.
now i discovered this morning there is actually act four scene three in some people's editions.
okay?
erm, so act fi act four, scene five.
and the stage direction at the beginning of this, enter doll in her bitter talking with sir epicure manhom.
has everybody got that scene?
enter doll in bitter talking with sir epicure manhom.
okay.
can you divide yourself up into groups of four first of all please?
i'll do it for you if you, you want?
and leave a bit of space.
right.
for those who aren't totally sort of in control of the plot and i probably should include myself as one of them, what's happening in this scene i want you to act out.
what's happening in this scene?
doll is a prostitute, okay?
first things first.
who is working with sottle who's planning to be the alchemist, okay?
so he's probably fiddled a lot of things to get money from people.
the alchemist is getting money, i'm sorry, for people who know this inside out, but i'll just explain it.
erm the alchemist is conning people promising them that he'll turn base metals into gold.
one of the people he's conning is sir epicure manhom who wants a life of ease and luxury and has been giving the alchemist loads of money in order to tu to, to perfect this and funny enough the alchemist hasn't managed, hasn't managed to do this, to get the person's money.
okay.
so that's who epicure manhom is.
one day, when he is, somewhere back in act two, one day he is visiting the alchemist he catches sight of this woman, doll, quite obviously a prostitute, probably an a an absolutely erm catches sight of her and says, i must quickly think up some reason why this woman is, is in the house cos sir epicure manhom thinks the alchemist is a pure, homely er priest-like creature yet in fact, he's running a whorehouse.
okay?
so,has it's worse than neighbours .
erm, think erm so he's sort of bluffing, okay?
i'll just find a scene where he does this.
er er in act two, scene three okay?
er erm quite a long way, there's that, that line erm two twenty.
okay?
face had just realized that sir epicure manhom has erm seen doll, which he shouldn't have done, and manhom calls face out and says stay lungs.
that's what face is called at the moment.
i dare not sir.
say man what is she ?
now face is bluffing here.
a lord's sister sir.
, pray thee stay .
and he sort of bluffs a bit more.
she's mad sir .
still trying to explain why a lord's sister is staying with the alchemist, okay?
she's mad sir.
send hither, he'll be mad too.
i warrant thee, why send hither?
sir, to be cured .
you know, he's, he's thinking on his feet.
he's trying to find reasons for this, this woman to be in the house.
meanwhile sottle off stage is more, is calling why rascal?
and face low you hear sir ?
he's going out to spend some .
okay.
manhom believes that, believes what basically?
they look, er round that line, two three five two three six and face is saying you're very right sir.
she is a very rare scholar 
describing doll collan here, a whore who is seen wandering around the stage most of the time,she is the most rare scholar and has gone mad with studying brampton's works.
and here but name a word such in a hebrew she falls in her fit and will discourse her learned genealogies as you would run mad too to to hear her sir .
now, so, face is trying to sort of put off sir epicure manhom by saying, you know, this a mad woman who's done too much learning nice little attack on women here by johnson, who, who is one of the biggest misogynists in the world, erm a woman who's gone crazy with learning and who knows nothing because er she's just a prostitute and therefore she's thick.
okay?
that's the joke.
but th again, the funny thing is, even funnier, is that manhom lusts after her, gets distracted from this idea of getting all this money and sa saying,how am i going to have conference with her, lungs ?
erm and face said,oh!
for a mad woman acceptance of her .
okay?
so, face promises to get an introduction to this woman who manhom fancies and erm and manhom, okay.
that is the background.
next time we see them they, they have met and and face sends them off to have a private conference.
okay?
so you now have act four, scene five.
enter doll and th they're talking.
will you please try and act it out like we did the twelfth night the bit with mrs , and see whether you can revive your idea of why johnson, what is the nature of, of johnson's comic art.
okay.
but hear guffaws within minutes.
right.
do you want me to divide you up?
are you,do you want class .
you ne need four in a group.
there's gonna be one over so somebody be the walking around peasant.
i don't mind right now.
just move my mike.
i think one of you lot's gonna have to go over and join these three over here.
yeah.
yeah.
go on.
you brave soul chris.
oh, do it now?
oh!
right.
well i haven't actually done it so i don't know what's going on.
i've only read up to the bit where he's standing near the hooker.
right.
so what's the job?
so how much have it, have we got to read?
the whole of the thing?
it isn't that long.
it's about act two, scene three really.
i've put in act four, scene five.
.
oh yeah.
the bit where doll and manhom comes in.
the bit after alexandra .
okay i'll be doll.
yes.
okay.
i'll possibly .
ah.
mr manhom.
i'll be doll.
alright, i'll be manhom as well.
but after alexandra 
sorry?
can we do are we doing act four, scene five?
er that'll be act five.
you're the clever one.
i only see it as that i don't understand her bit, i think she's just out to take the piss.
i do i'm, you know, i'm learning enough,ancient greek.
sorry.
or whatever it is.
it must be some .
erm don't know, sorry.
and er, i don't know, i think it's all about skivers isn't it?
cos as soon as they go it's all gone a bit
when i saw it i didn't think it was that funny.
i didn't think, you know 
yo ho ho ho!
when did you see it?
i saw it about a year and a half ago.
and i, when i read it, i hadn't looked at this , but i never thought it was really, i didn't sit there going 
yeah.
you know, it was 
yeah.
all like, ooh!
who's at the door?
no it's the wrong person.
oh my god!
oh.
all that sort of thing.
you know, it's like, real sort of like you know, a farce.
it's weird.
yeah.
it's just like the people really.
people, yeah i know.
basically.
, you know
yeah.
less of that.
oh dear .
how's it going you lot?
hello.
oh hello.
have you worked out what's going on ?
no.
okay.
how far have you got?
we've read the whole scene, but 
you've read the whole scene.
right.
can't remember much.
erm what what, what stage of deciphering are you at ?
have you got to ?
.
okay.
erm have you got
tricky too.
what, what sottle is doing when he comes in on the scene?
no.
isn't he trying to make him feel guilty manhom and this woman?
yes.
but he's er 
yeah.
his lust for a whore.
yeah.
yeah.
and that's why, and then erm he's trying to put, they try and blame manhom that er when the er furnace thing stops he, that's all his fault is what 
yeah.
we thought.
yeah.
so, i can understand what's going on, but it's like when i saw it, i saw the r s c production,
yeah.
and like, and they were going, oh it's th the funniest play ever written!
yeah.
and all this lot.
and i went to see it and, you know, it was very slick they said, oh 
yeah.
who's at the door?
no it's someone else.
oh quick, put a 
yeah.
on.
yeah.
but i, i never really thought it was rip-roaringly funny.
perhaps if you don't really like farce as a as a kind of comedy then 
i suppose, yeah i'm not really in on them.
yeah.
cos even when i, i've been to see like, you know ones i just sit there and tend to go, yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
but you've gotta either be really in them or sort of out 
sort of back seat?
yeah.
yeah.
very different kind of humour where no, i, i, unfortunately i agree with you.
yeah.
but i, i'm hating , but i mean yeah i could see its cleverness.
and 
yeah.
real physical cleverness.
yeah.
the staging was just brilliant!
yeah, it's really visual.
it's 
it's like when they did the erm you know when she comes on as a fairy
mm.
kingpin fairy, she sat on someone's head and she had this massive gown all over her, and that was really visual.
erm 
yeah.
he we wanted to her get off he just ran up to this erm, ladder and she just grabbed onto him, he just pulled it away.
is that ?
yeah.
it's really hard, yeah.
you cannot visualize something taking place.
it's really wordy isn't it?
it's really sort of.
and also, i mean, so many of the, the jokes just are very 
quick jokes.
yeah.
they're based on maybe one word in a sentence but if you miss that, you've missed it.
and that doesn't really matter in the theatre because you carry on
yeah.
along by the visual gags, so neither of them when 
yeah.
you're reading it, you feel you've got to you've got to follow the follow the script.
and the other thing about visual things, let's, let's say there is a reference to somebody having piles, but they make it a visual gag 
yeah.
yeah.
whereas on the page it is you know
yeah.
schoolboy humour.
yeah.
you know?
yeah.
erm i mean, nevertheless, obviously it's just somebody on the scene is a bit 
and that free way of talking about pain.
and wrote it like that and published it like that.
something that shakespeare never did.
he didn't take anything and take it to the publishers, there you go.
and he was a very conscientious playwright.
. so, you know, to part like him, you've gotta resent him.
yeah.
yeah.
that's th the lying stake.
anyway
well the second bit on, don't you think you reach a point where it keeps going, the actual crap, and you go, well why are they doing it then?
yeah.
it's really shit, yes, but let's just 
yeah.
carry on and see this.
can you get it on video this one?
no, i don't think you can.
tt!
it took ages for me to be able to get a 
well, i tried to get a video cos i wa i wanted to use this section to actually watch it.
mm mm.
and sort of stop it
yeah.
yes!
every few minutes.
i know.
and i, i couldn't get one.
tt!
oh.
so, it was, it was, i,a as soon as i knew i'd be teaching this i thought the only way
yeah.
to get them this across is, is to actually see it.
is there a video of it?
i don't, oh 
apparently not, but erm 
yeah.
there may be, i just i went into one video shop and i asked the le erm, some people here.
have you tried the library?
no.
no.
library in
here?
twickenham.
or in twickenham?
twickenham.
it's really good.
is it?
oh!
yeah, so join up.
thanks john.
commission .
plug, plug there.
yeah.
no it's really good, you can have them for like two days and it's only a pound, it's really good.
oh!
you get everything too.
well i'll look into that one.
i think i this could be fairly crucial that you actually see it.
erm
if i could have your attention for a minute.
what, any other things that you'd got, but i talked to each group individually, erm but if you want to share any of your thoughts with everybody else i'm standing in the way.
any illustrations for the scene we've just been doing and the things we've already been talking about, or any new ideas.
johnson's way of doing comedy.
no,, you got anything extra to say?
er er only we the bit about how they both 
the way she to 
oh melissa i'm 
guess what i was watching down there, ah p o r k y s
porky's
alright, have you seen
have you been screwing that
alright
have you seen, oh, have you got, don't tell me, something, something coat, my coat
have you seen my coat anywhere?
no, sorry love i'm not a lesbian
ah
did he have a big balloon in his belly?
well, no, he had it struck over his head mind you
oh yeah
who was watching that with?
well i was watching that with steven
no word 
no word of a lie, or and the best part was when he stuck his tongue through the hole and they put soap on it and he 
oh yeah 
and he stuck his dingaling through and the woman grabbed it and she put his foot against the wall and started stretching it, and he's going aaagh
i've seen it and that and is
oh sugar plum
i forgot, i got carried away sorry about that missus
i forgot this erm microphone was on, sorry students, i am very, very sorry, please forgive me, please forgive me
they must think i was drunk, do you know what?
what?
do you know when i went to gareth's house and er, he had a you know a house warming party
and i was drunk, i think something happened
i don't want to hear about it, tell me another time
well i'd like to say goodbye, cos charlie's coming now, bye then, it's princess diana, and you know what, i'm a stuck up old woman,oh willie stop playing with those now 
da, da, da, da, da, hello i'm marie kelly, welcome to t v am, where
excuse me mike i'm trying to say something
well today, poll tax has now gone up one pound, but for the old fogies it's gone down one pound
over to you mike
er, hello there, my name's mike, well let's go over to the weather with winsy, no winsy, oh rita's dropped dead, she's jumped off a cliff we think, we think
and now we'll go over to winsy.
hello my name's winsy insy spider climb up the spout, down came the rain and washed winsy out, when the sun came out it dried up the rain, insy, winsy spider climbed up again thank you, oh thank you, oh thank you, i know, thank you, well, today, at midday today it's going to be tipping down with rain and winsy, winsy, winsy, spider will fall down the rain,
melissa
er, oh, right, on toni , tonight we're gonna have sun and maybe a bit of snow and tomorrow morning we're gonna have a full moon
oh you're
but he was quite
well
alright then
do you mind, i'm trying to do a programme here, and how the hell can i do it, with your gob slapping?
thank you 
oh you dickhead
oy, right then today, we have got melanie of neighbours here with us
oh my god
other day and i told this lady and she goes, who the hell are you?
who the hell are you?
well i said what you looking at you skinny thing, and she just, how dare you speak to me like that, and i just who the hell you looking at you ugly thing , i'm going to espania tomorrow, cos i'm going holiday to el spania,right then
what you doing you sexy woman?
thank you
your wife is over there, don't you talked to her like that
who the hell you think you are i've got a good mind to put your beard right in this food 
and he said
came up to me and he did, do you want a game of footy, i said oh
sorry about that love, well i'll go
and i tore this paper and i said if you're gonna have a wee wee then do it wee on me, so i said, up your
all over the place and then i went out
oh stink bomb, oh, come over here, who want a football, ah, want a game of footy, alright then
er man in the goal man
oh look like that
he's a football player as well, not him, not
are you doing, making it
as he's kicking the ball, come on then, now, get in the goal, come on then
in the goal, yes, yes, yes, yes, and then they went home and
and there's this woman called lassie, and this, this other man was talking to er this other man and he goes why'd you call that woman lassie?
well if you take her upstairs
find out, he says, alright then, so he took her up the room, and all you could hear was 
melissa
and she goes i've had enough questions for one day, i said it plenty of times she said oh shut up you wee wally
you think you
oh who, hiya
i come from australia, yeah, you know
oh my god i think a early goodbye now winny, well that's the end of the news, we now must go over to gender bender the cartoon, gender bender, bom, bom, bom, gender bender
what is that?
oh
well
goodbye, see you tomorrow at six am, well goodbye from me and goodbye from him, and ta ra too
yeah i had of done.
look like an old fashioned woman
and it's over like that
robin hood ooh robin hood 
anybody talk about me today?
yeah
anybody else?
oh sharon said that, told the
about er, that you were ill
today
oh yeah this morning she said 
oh god, you look like you've
up in the, from the future with a, the pink make up one, but this woman's got a green one 
only
i slip that round your neck
yeah 
what colour is it this time?
copper, same as before 
who did it?
me it won't come out red cos i've got brown hair it'll just come out sort of 
i'm put, i'm putting this red in it on saturday and
saturday, you should do it friday night
friday night
what is that?
that's my new top
oh you put that
yes, i was
so on friday he won't be coming home
yeah, saturday i'm seeing her
oh 
right
and you see a
i forget, i forget oh did i?
oh i forgot to put
blanket on
what an electric blanket?
yeah
yeah 
doesn't your mum check, see if you've put it on
my dad puts them to bed oh we're gonna have fuck all and
oh, ain't you forgetting something she's a creep ain't she?
ah?
do you realise that, when lisa has it right
has what?
that flute
what flute?
it's in a black case right?
yeah
when i have to hold it, when she's hold it, it was a big white sticker on the top, right
yeah
and she was looking down at it, right
yeah
cos it was a fake, she told you, when marilyn was looking at it, she
the sticker was at the bottom, and there was nothing at the top and she, and she was still looking down at it, in other words there was nothing in it before
mm 
hey
enjoy ain't he?
revolting ah i was watching
today
yeah
it was good
cor he's nice
oh and, oh simon
yeah i know, i've, no i've lost the
what?
lost the
what's that?
she's a bit chubby on the face like
that's her jaws innit?
oh they slept in the caravan together he didn't complain then 
oh my god
ever since you've had that place
yeah 
look at those timetables, everybody exactly the same
yeah, i guess it
no i mean, this, the paper is the same and you
where'd you get yours from?
i don't think you can get one now
how
have you signed this thing in mrs room?
you're supposed to of signed it and to, to let you know when your
if you haven't signed it, i don't think you can do it
yeah, cos in the diner, they said er what have we missed, when she grew up all on her own
yeah, but in the paper it says look, marilyn finds out about
a couple of phonies
a couple of what?
phonies
what's that?
forgeries
oh
here are
ta
these readers, are just books are very good aren't they?
yeah 
what you like about them?
well as i say, there's a wide variety of contents.
does it?
i like the letters, do you?
i haven't seen them they're advertising
oh there's letters here very good
the jokes are like, like that, those
yeah can you see that better there?
let's have a look what?
have you read it?
no
what
he took the sewing machine
i haven't read it yet 
i'll turn this down oh remind over in the cold, do business last winter with matching jean and shorts
i told my
with, they must get hold of a new windscreen before going home oh look just good friends.
who?
just good friends
is that on now?
yeah
oh we'll look, we'll listen to that then, shall we?
we'll look at it 
oh 
have you got that paper?
writing
er, don't speak too loud now 
pardon?
no, i'm not that ignorant could of been, it's so funny isn't it?
no i, i've gotta go now
no don't put it there 
oh dear, dear
perhaps now, i think i'll put the kettle on
yeah, let's have a nice cup of tea
can you hear me?
what?
can you hear me?
yeah, i can't hear the telly though
that's alright then, you want me to put it on here?
shall i put it on then?
mum , shall i put it on?
yeah
if you want
oh god i thought you were gonna hit the glass as well then.
oh god you didn't did you?
thanks, it's best if you point it at the telly
go on then, it don't bloody work 
is that better?
i think i'll sue you 
turn it down a bit i'm expecting a phone call in a minute, but i think i'll have one.
turn the telly down mum.
i can't hear it if it's any lower
put the words on then 
oh dear 
can't wait till saturday, have a rave ma
yeah that's all you want is a rave up innit?
do you know what rave is?
yeah
what?
a rave, yeah, i know what a rave is
music
yeah
that's all i want
you can have one here
ah, ma
i still don't know where this party is darling
in this boy's house
yeah and where is the boy's house?
in
by aysha's i think
where in
aysha, no
where does she live?
i went up her house last night, it's i dunno how, how i got through, the long way
oh a long way is it?
we took the long way, on the way back to the bus stop
i, the new bus stop to the house, is by that er, by the dentist, you know that bus stop there?
my dentist, not the bus stop up the top but the one in, lower down, do you know which one?
by the
yeah, there
it would be nearer
what?
it would be near enough for you
yeah, it'll be near enough, and i won't need this, cos me mother's taking me home
was that me?
sunday i'm staying the night at
house
oh, and another girl?
no, just me
oh, yeah
leanne's staying tonight cos she's been chucked out of her house
oh that's the sort of people they are then are they, taken on waifs and strays are they?
no
she shouldn't be allowed to stay there if, how old is this girl that's been chucked out of the house?
fifteen
and she's been chucked out of the house?
well so she said
yeah, and what's her name?
leanne
leanne
who?
what?
no don't you believe me or what? okay then
my heart 
you haven't got a bloody heart
i know, no 
oh, who's that?
oh, if that girl's been chucked out of her house, she's been there then all the week then?
no she's only staying tonight and they think, they just phoned me up then and they were on the square, i think she's going home phorr what's that smell, it stinks what?
was daddy on the phone?
daddy on the phone?
no hi bill he's going out mum
eh?
that bloody him innit?
he said he was gonna ring you later
eh?
ta
then why the hell didn't he knock on the door?
what's going on?
eh?
see that, see that boy dropped the blocks off over there 
concrete blocks 
didn't you say her house was , didn't you say hers was falling down?
no, thought the house was falling down
how many sugars do you take these days?
eh?
this bench is not straight, anything you put on it seems to wobble what?
cos i'm clever than you
ma, will you write me a letter tomorrow to go down town to look at some clothes
what for?
what in your dinner hour?
in your dinner hour, is it?
no not in your school time
sorry that could become a
ah, god who's that, someone at the door give me that kim was
commander, training, sergeant major informed us that we'll would be departing by
airport that afternoon, i can't keep my eyes awake, when we asked for
he grinned and he looked at me and said
dismal days ha, ha, ha hello, what you laughing at?
what's happened?
what?
probably, probably the best lager in the world that's what i feel like now, is, is there any cornflakes in the cupboard?
yeah i've got a toothache hello
cease her give way wow, ma what?
don't talk oh i'm lazy
oh, i'm watching this on telly now
oh, no i'll probably
i 
today then mm
where'd you get that spray from?
eh?
is this the wine that you brought?
where d'ya get that?
hawk something 
yep.
new zealand.
mm mm!
excuse me, who's that making that noise?
mm?
oh look at nankypoo he's got his tongue hanging out.
i know , and he always sleeps like that.
does he?
mm mm.
michael this is lovely .
you're not planning on having ?
but that's awful that you've done 
but 
everything.
.
well it is awful, i agree, but
well, just stay there then.
do you twos do the cooking rather than go out.
well it depends
yeah?
oh sonny, she bought those..
god!
oh.
rachel i asked you to take the glasses through.
that's alright.
yeah, that was a bit under the belt .
yeah .
i need another coat hanger.
yep.
i know.
see what i have to put up with?
sorry?
do you see what i have 
to put up with?
who?
anne-marie.
it'll all be changing when she owns her flat.
interesting.
we'll have to knuckle down a bit won't we se rachel?
now
it was so
about ready are we?
mhm.
is that what you missed?
come and do it.
okay?
and dog in?
right, put the top 
here.
light on.
well i don't need it.
do you need it?
no.
ah, it's a shame to, you know.
mm.
it's more romantic i think.
now is that ?
swallows the atmosphere.
i think it's the candlestick.
they don't give off so much light though do they?
no.
purely decorative.
but i think .
oh right.
we have paper ones.
mm mm.
but might ignite.
we'll be no, no, they don't ignite 
because the candle is inside the shape of the candle shape holder that they're more translucent.
right.
i think, but though we've also got some nice glass
thank you.
another grey one there.
er, i'm sure we didn't put a brush through my hair in the bath.
they're lovely, like laser beams.
oh!
how lovely.
yeah.
ah.
bon appetit.
that's the wine today.
no 
yes.
isn't it nice?
i don't know.
we haven't tried it yet.
glass gearoid.
cheers then chaps!
cheers.
so long as you wait, i think you've been doing this all day.
yes, cheers.
thank you very much .
thanks for a lovely 
super 
day!
super weekend!
thank you.
thank you both for having us.
yes, thank you.
are you leaving?
i love this wine.
mm mm.
it is very nice isn't it?
it's lovely.
hawk 
i've never tried it before michael.
well i won't be driving anywhere tonight.
i think i'm twiddled after that gin and martini.
it's oak it's been matured in .
oh that's okay.
mm!
delicious!
beautiful dishes.
mm mm!
ma , patrick and i were walking the dog
what's this?
it's not 
pickled , pickled ginger.
pickled ginger.
yes, but i thought 
do you eat ginger?
it was ginger, well
do you eat ginger.
oh gosh this is absolutely 
wonderful!
lovely!
mm mm!
i've never had it before.
mm mm.
pick pickled ginger.
i think ginger and melon is delicious.
mm mm.
that is beautiful!
cos i thought it was ma , i thought it was erm a ham or something.
mm mm.
it's lovely!
have you noticed her melon-baller
oh yes, she did.
i went through everything with her.
she was delighted with it.
mm.
oh did you give her a me a melon baller?
we gave her one as well, yeah.
mm.
cos we have one.
oh very yum, yum.
so
they surely sell them in dublin though do they?
i haven't seen them.
i'm sure they do, it's just 
mm mm.
you know, it's one of those things 
yeah.
you never think to pick it up for yourself.
mm.
no, exactly.
you brought a zester didn't you, for molly?
mm.
i think they're a good idea.
mm mm!
gosh this pickled ginger's delicious!
gorgeous!
i'm hooked on ginger.
tastes like lime.
yeah.
chris discovered it at blakes.
really?
really?
first of all.
so what, what can you do with it?
i mean 
just have a bit bit with cold meat cold meat roast chicken
yep.
pork
mm mm!
molly would love it.
so, i can have 
yes.
and mikey likes ginger as well 
mm mm.
doesn't he?
does your mother like ginger?
mm mm.
i must give you one and take it for her.
and michael es , and michael especially.
mm mm.
but
cos i do chicken with ginger which 
th 
is really nice.
chicken, ginger 
oh do you?
and cashew nuts.
oh!
you haven't given that to me.
with root ginger or powdered ginger.
it's root ginger.
it's delicious!
very strong.
cos it's very subtle.
but it's in a 
oh i 
packet is it?
it's actually very subtle.
mhm.
it's delicious.
so many people when they eat it, they can't actually decipher what it has, you know what it is, that it is ginger.
yes.
it's very subtle.
i think margaret doesn't understand the word subtle.
cos she takes about two pounds of root ginger peels it 
really?
and chops it
and puts it with a pound of philadelphia cheese into the cavity of the chicken outside it's just lightly rubbed with oil
mm mm.
and then about two ounces of powdered ginger sprinkled over it.
two ounces as well as all the ginger?
and puts it into roast in the oven, and takes it out after fifty minutes and then you get philadelphia cheese and white wine melt it down in the wine
mm mm!
stirring a bit more you know, crushed root ginger
mm mm.
and that's your sauce to serve on the side.
i tell, you've never eaten anything like it!
is it nice?
i could eat the tail.
really?
it's gorgeous.
but i , i keep saying to michael it's so expensive!
i mean root ginger's like a pound a pound, or two pound a pound.
no, not really.
it's not, it's not as expensive as it used to be.
it's got more and more popular strangely enough.
but she does ginger tea.
oops.
so do i?
oh i haven't drunk ginger tea before.
well i'll make you ginger tea.
well we never tried that before.
but that's sounds what, can i just ask again, so you have a roast chicken yo , and you mix two
a pound of philadelphia cheese.
yeah.
but she does about two pound of root ginger.
most normal people would have half a pound at the most.
that's two good roots.
you crush it or do you chop 
two whole, bash it.
it up?
bash it?
bash, bash.
yeah.
and you put that, mix that in 
mix in.
with the philadelphia 
into the cavity.
right.
and 
yo 
then after 
and then 
fifty minutes
oil it, oil 
it's 
the outside
as if it's full 
yeah.
and moist.
put the ground,
with the 
the ground ginger
the the 
mhm.
you know, the powdered stuff.
philadelphia cheese cooked in and 
cheese and everything inside.
keeping the whole chicken .
mm.
mm.
and then roast it.
and then after fifty minutes you do the melt the
she, well she cooks her chicken for only fifteen minutes, but i would cook my chicken 
oh.
longer.
yeah.
are we talking about a roast, a whole chicken?
a ro , a whole chicken.
mm.
fifteen minutes?
fifty.
fifty.
oh fifty.
that's still pretty short 
mm.
it 
isn't it?
it's about an hour and a half to cook a chicken.
but 
mm.
you could cook, you could cook it 
for longer with that inside couldn't you?
fifty, fifty and i wouldn't want to eat it.
right.
couldn't you?
it's very moist.
i don't like overcooked chicken.
i like it
but that'd be pink?
do you like it pink?
so , surely 
mm.
yeah, it'll still be pink.
i thought you had to be quite careful with chicken.
well, you're not gonna be 
well we only ever use marks and spencers free range chicken.
we we used to have these in dublin didn't we?
can we give this dog 
yeah.
some chickens?
oh don't!
i'll have to try that one in, in dublin, tell molly i've been.
that sounds wonderful!
it's still a good thing to try.
yeah, we do a well of course we,we used to make contact with who, were having a dinner party that we went to.
that's why we do all our entertaining one at a time.
why do you only use marks and spencers' chickens.
sheila says they're the best in england.
really?
she won't have anything else in the hotel.
if there's a chicken dish in the hotel chickens don't come from our suppliers, they come from marks and spencers.
do marks and spencers 
so you just freeze them do you?
obviously you get them then from in bulk from 
i just .
no.
what you just go to the supermarkets and buy a whole of chickens?
mhm.
really?
that's our extravagance.
excuse me, er, for a moment.
mm.
well she thinks they're far superior to anybody 
can i help you?
else's.
yeah.
the napkins
mm mm!
are napkins that we've been buying in antique fairs.
have you?
are they really?
mm.
yeah.
they were wonderful!
so you probably think 
i think 
they starch them though.
oh well i have them ordered.
mm.
we have them ordered.
are they nice?
they are beautiful!
yeah.
they really are lovely.
we got about a hundred napkins upstairs .
really?
yeah.
the napkins to well cheaper than buying new ones isn't it?
mm mm!
yes.
mm.
you get them for two pounds fifty.
four pounds.
five pounds each.
they're wonderful aren't they?
you go to peter and pay that for an ordinary
mm mm.
oh yeah.
what d'ya call it, kind of 
mm.
i just thought that was absolutely delicious!
dave has a gorgeous recipe for erm teriyaki beef.
on the menu of biggs.
oh what's 
really?
that?
she puts the pickled ginger on one side and another, like a japanese horseradish called wasabe which is green don't try it, it'll blow your head off!
really?
oh yeah.
and th , the, the sort of steak is then it's er cooked like soya sauce 
oh yeah.
and marinated
mm mm!
then it's served in strips.
just delicious!
is, is it expensive to eat biggs?
really?
mm.
oh i was just thinking, it'd be nice to go there.
i didn't think it would be
the starters are about nine pounds to in at thirty five for caviar.
really?
main courses are about eighteen to twenty eight.
and the puddings make about sixty pounds.
so it's sixty pounds each 
mm.
then?
yeah.
and that's for the 
plus your booze.
yeah.
mm.
and is the drink very expensive?
ya.
her mark-up is about so what i normally do, she has never ever told me to pay for anything.
and she says go and have a meal 
oh yeah.
then
yeah.
you know, and if anybody else does, they do but i always insist on paying for my drinks.
yeah.
and
thank you.
which one?
she obviously didn't know this for a long time and then one day i said to her, well, it was lovely meal and all that but i do think your mark-up on the wine is scandalous!
what did she say?
of course i get a staff discount.
really?
she says well i know, and you know that that bottle of wine costs
mm mm.
ten ninety five and, and we had two bottles last night so it costs us sixty pounds.
well done michael.
who's making gearoid pay?
nobody makes me pay for it, i always pay for my drinks.
really?
so it was murder!
really?
i said i would never go back again
i'll help you michael.
no, i'll, i'll do it, it's okay.
i'm all under control 
are you sure?
now.
she wouldn't let me pay for it.
really?
so fair to say, the staff are depending on their tips to supplement their salary
yeah.
so if i don't pay anything
yeah.
they've lost that
yes.
right.
ability of earning that money
yeah.
, so
you can't leave a tip regardless?
well , michael always leaves a tip.
mm.
but what we've done now they've agreed to let me pay and i pay cost price for the drinks.
right.
so we can drink ourselves silly and get a bill for about ten pounds.
and all that wonderful food!
oh that's very good isn't it?
i'm looking forward to the sweet i must 
mm.
say.
mm.
thank you for dinner.
maybe thursday.
have you got a busy week now michael?
well tuesday is my busiest day.
i'm getting 
what?
some more in.
oh really?
yeah.
that's alright.
cos they're around then?
yeah.
and how long are yours away for?
too long.
monday morning, four a m they landed.
oh!
so you'll have a an awful week then as usual?
well i'm hoping i'm going to have a nice week but it mavis , my housekeeper's away until wednesday so i can't leave the house during the day.
oh right.
because the morning maid goes home at one o'clock and doesn't come back again until six.
the gardener comes.
yes.
i can't just go off and have a look for somebody or
mm mm.
go wandering down the high street can i?
or whatever.
no.
mm mm.
so wednesday, thursday, and friday i fully intend to .
cos i never ever have time off.
i know, you said before you hardly miss a lunch.
never.
which is crazy!
i mean, i really do resent it sometimes.
i'm not surprised.
yes.
cos it's dark in the morning when i go into work and it's dark when i'm going home in the evenings.
it's getting a bit ridiculous!
it's getting .
and does provide food for you to have?
occasionally.
i mean, at the moment there's no housekeeper so unless i actually say to the maid will you just put something in the oven for me?
that's it.
that's appalling though!
and on , on erm thursday thursday evening before they were going out to mark she came home at just about half one.
she came and made me a ham sandwich and the maid just look at her to eat it now.
brilliant!
there really was not a scrap of .
that's awful!
because the housekeeper sorts all that out, so when she's away no one does it?
but she bought all these things for me from marks and spencers, you know breaded chicken and
mm mm.
mm.
breasts.
yeah.
i put them all in the deep freeze.
unless you think about it, you know the day before or the 
yeah 
yeah.
morning you come in.
but surely you can just defrost it in the microwave?
she doesn't have a microwave.
does she not?
why doesn't she use a 
she doesn't like them.
microwave?
doesn't like them.
but she bought you one.
she get you one.
that was quite funny because it was our first christmas down there and i was saying to the housekeeper that i i wouldn't mind having people come and stay and not a problem because we've got a lovely cooker and we're going to bring our microwave down from .
said it's electric, i'm just going to unplug it and bring it down and put it on the work top.
the only thing is that it's chocolate brown and my kitchen's all white.
and she did and so i think two days before christmas lady said to me, okay i shall go into peter and choose whatever microwave you want.
just charge it to my account.
that's right.
what?
she said well you can't be carrying microwaves around england every time you want to have a meal.
and just, i know that's what, you haven't got one in the cottage and there you are, go and get it.
she's so generous isn't she?
yeah.
there was no kind of 
pricing mentioned.
i went to peter 
and looked at, you know, little ones, and huge ones
oh yeah.
and things that did that thing and washing up and all the rest 
and i thought what am i going to do?
mm mm.
cos i mean i wasn't with her that long.
mm.
it was like my first christmas.
and what was considered acceptable and what was considered being bloody greedy!
yeah .
i said to the guy, how many of these could i actually walk out with?
and he said none.
they're all display models?
i said what have you got in the so , you know, warehouse on sloane avenue in 
mm.
white?
oh i think that was one of two.
the other one was like four hundred and ninety nine pounds.
so, i'll take it.
i didn't know, i didn't even know what i was taking.
really?
i still haven't a clue of what er the
the pamphlet, it's far too complicated for me.
she's like that.
i mean, she's really sweet.
mm mm.
i'm very careful never to admire things or enthuse about things.
because she's likely to give them to you?
because she's likely to give them to you.
i mean, she knows i love gardenia
mm mm.
and because she was in mustique and hadn't bought me a birthday present she made sure that there were two gardenia plants at the party that night she bought me.
really?
she's like that.
mm.
she knows we love the pink champagne.
mm mm.
the brand is in.
and it's not kind of standard champagne in the place but she always keeps a supply.
always has champagne.
got any champagne at home?
get another bottle of that.
he must be running low.
you see i, i mean i know obviously the perks don't outweigh all that, er, at least you do get some perks.
at least you know, she can be generous and 
yes.
but she can be absolutely demonic there's no doubt about that.
she really can.
mm.
and she drives you insane!
well like you said last time, i think only a man can put up with her.
mm.
that's probably why she got through so many women.
i think she's on back on the right track as well with her.
she was in a rut.
okay.
really?
there is more to life than worrying about how the maid's ironed your nightdress or you know.
so she does have a housekeeper that lives in?
no.
now molly's been with her since she first got married, you know.
she's a big portuguese man-of-war.
and then she has a maid?
who's very bitter.
is she?
why 
well 
is she bitter?
well she's had a miserable life of her own kind of thing.
she's not married?
doesn't like sir mark.
her husband left her.
oh.
doesn't like sir mark.
i think resents him enormously.
he doesn't like her.
oh really?
because, you know, i understand that before he came along she was there you know, and that kind of situation
yeah.
yeah.
where you know, well it never used to be like that.
is it 
mm mm.
her first marriage then?
this is the original
what?
lady ?
yeah.
third.
oh third!
really?
i didn't know that.
number one was killed in a car crash?
really?
and her, their children were not two and three years of age.
oh how awful!
and the same week that he was killed, sasha, her daughter was in great ormond street having surgery for cancer of the brain.
that's appalling!
so 
so she must have been quite young herself then?
oh ya.
she married at eighteen.
so yo , i have enormous respect for anyone who actually 
mm mm.
through something like 
and so 
that.
she just divorced the second one?
kind of a touchy subject.
oh right.
he's phil , the theatrical producer.
got all these smash hits in the west end at the moment.
but, i don't know what the story is.
no one has ever said.
any more.
on the rare occasion that it comes up she kind of laughs it off and says well it wasn't really a marriage.
and just change the subject.
so i could of been days 
oh.
literally.
yeah.
so sh 
well sir marquess across the road it was his first wife who died of a brain tumour and left him with three daughters, as we know.
oh really?
.
but it was almost inevitable.
so where are all the children now?
.
they have one son by this alliance and he's the youngest.
ah but they're all young adults.
oh so they all do their own thing?
so the girl that had 
ah yeah.
ah yeah.
the girl that had cancer 
mm mm.
she's alright now?
she's fine.
sasha's great!
works at length.
and are they nice people?
sasha's lovely.
adorable.
her brother is .
really?
but i think that finally .
use all these potatoes?
we certainly do.
yes, it that a joke michael?
i think he just well they've got pots of money between them why should i ever do any work?
let them pay for everything, which they do.
his daughter's loathe her!
really?
although i think the elder one her 
but the youngest one is really giving her a attack at the moment.
she's just come out of saint mary's didn't do as well as she thought, or everybody else hoped she would do in her a levels, so is now retaking one.
and she's just an evil little so and so!
i hate to say that about anybody, but she really is.
yeah.
she conspired to be disruptive.
she's a liar.
an out and out liar!
really?
and i think she's stealing stuff as well.
she's what?
she's got a huge allowance!
she's stealing stuff?
stealing stuff.
from the house.
does she still live at the home then?
erm officially yeah.
but
you know that erm these people chiddyfort where mum and dad are living and erm
which people ?
oh yeah.
and they had fostered a girl because they couldn't have any children of their own as far as i know and and, ah they she's a com , a complete horror!
i mean, she's only about eighteen and she, she hates 
she's got married now though.
she hates the parents.
yeah i know.
and even about the wedding dress her mother, her mother knew 
but she's calmed down a lot.
her mother knew, her mother that
oh god!
if she, if she admired this dress
that one ?
thank you very much.
yes.
that she wouldn't say anything so, dorothy had to actually say erm well i really don't think you should go for that.
that's awful!
and the daughter said, right i'll have that one.
but i think they are getting on better now though.
she was such a bitch!
unbelievable!
this just, just looks absolutely wonderful michael?
look at the little carrots and everything.
this is gorgeous!
there.
is this the chicken that i saw earlier transformed into little breaded
yes it is.
and the breadcrumbs done by michael.
he's a wonderful little treasure isn't he?
have they got, have the breadcrumbs got herbs in?
yes.
taste.
alright.
mm mm!
it's ooh!
they're actually macdonalds macnuggets.
i've thrown the box away.
mm..
they're absolutely wonderful!
but tell me
shall i tell you what that's covered with?
it's actually a stuffing mix
mm mm!
that you can buy here you can actually get it in harrods as well, and i use as breadcrumbs.
it's absolutely gorgeous!
mm mm!
there's more gravy here.
anybody?
mm.
just a little.
mm.
right.
this is a delicious meal michael.
thank you very much.
it's really super!
it's wonderful!
it's only chi chicken.
the chicken is just
is it?
gorgeous!
mm mm.
and with a of course the vegetables.
lovely vegetables!
mm mm!
gosh!
you've done very well michael!
i don't take any gravy so have a bit more.
do you not?
do you want some michael?
have you had some?
i have some here thank you.
at the moment.
okay.
don't you like gravy?
that's it.
wo!
thank you.
she's had enough.
mm.
she'll have had
mm.
anything else?
no.
oh i, it could be on, i can't see the red light now, it's gone the other side.
i hope we weren't discussing what i thought we were discussing on that 
mm mm.
tape or you really have to wipe it out.
i know.
mm mm.
cos names 
the tape ran out during blind date.
mm mm.
names were named.
mm mm.
do you have it on during blind date.
oh my god !
that could really lower the tone of the evening.
you had your day.
well i didn't tell you about my hot date on wednesday.
ooh!
i didn't know you had one.
tell me.
tell us.
you know i had the choir concert last saturday?
mhm.
it was at a church in hertford.
and we were completely frozen cos the boiler had broken down and we were there at two o'clock to rehearse.
and i had one rehearsal of two bach pieces which were really difficult and i was com , feeling completely frantic during the break in rehearsal, and went over to look at the music and some fellow called don bounded over to me and said, oh you can't be you know you sh can't be looking at that now, ba, la dee da dee da!
he must have heard that i'd come back from ireland.
so, he was talking about ireland, really raving about it and his name's kennedy and he's from liverpool and he likes to think he's got irish blood in him, he's been there twice this year and
mhm.
all that.
really enthusing about it.
so we were chatting away about that.
and then erm after the rehearsal some of us went off to get a pizza before the concert and he said to me, erm are you interested in going to hear the mozart requiem, it's on at the barbican on wednesday?
so i said, yeah!
co , i've always wanted to hear it, and as you know it's our next concert.
so erm that was fine, until after the concert
was that a subsidised concert by were all the tickets one price or not?
at the barbican?
i don't know.
it was packed!
princess diana was there.
i know.
that's it.
really.
she was?
she was there when you were there?
mm.
mm, i saw her.
mm.
oh really?
all the tickets were 
mm mm.
one price.
i had heard 
what was she wearing?
it was sponsored.
i read it in the 
black and white.
paper and thought well that would have been quite nice.
mm mm.
did you go with him?
i'll come to that.
you said yes did anyway.
i said yes thinking mozart would be lovely, and not thinking any more of it until he stuck to me like a limpet
for the rest of the concert and the penny began to drop erm he said something about the tube station not being the most romantic place to meet and i kind of brushed it off by saying well at least we won't get wet there or something.
mm mm.
and then he said er, i said to him about 
i've got to get the last train home.
he said don't worry, i have the winter timetable.
he's a train spotter.
he's got a green anorak with toggles 
i see.
on.
and 
i think it's better
don't!
alright.
he's tall but 
he's tall which is great.
no problem.
he's in his well actually probably pushing forty at this stage.
but, he's got he's got a a big round red face and little eyes 
and a moustache, and the most peculiar little bit under 
bit, yes.
there.
but really it's just like 
what colour hair has he got?
it's just, it's just like a bit like that
but he's nice?
which goes mm mm!
but i kept hearing him like scrape it during the concert.
i know .
but it 
what col 
it's ju 
what colour hair?
erm
does it matter?
when you have a lobotomy !
especially when he's
i don't know
.
michael , michael 
oh no .
michael's hair colour i suppose.
a bit like that.
and then he's got he's got a beard, except it's not very long going behind his jawline like captain ahab.
do you remember?
what?
yes.
yeah.
kind of, out like that.
really bizarre!
weird.
peculiar man.
he's head of er he's senior editor of classics at e m i, so he latched onto this sort of, you know
ah.
ooh another thing in common, you know da da, da da.
and did you 
so erm i was feeling a bit edgy about this when we were in the pub after the concert cos i thought maybe he's reading things into it and i, you know, i was just going along for the music.
so i thought, oh maybe i'm reading too much into it.
so i met him on wednesday evening tottenham court road tube station and er chat, chat, chat.
he, he talked so much we missed our stop.
in a very loud voice!
did you?
yes.
erm, and he kept touching me as well which really annoyed me!
oh oh!
well, i'm a bit of toucher myself and i, i don't mind if it's friends or family or someone i'm keen on 
oh yeah.
that doesn't bother me, but considering it was only the second i'd spoken to him and i did not fancy him in the least erm, it really made my skin crawl.
and erm first couple of times i kind of didn't respond, and the next few times i was literally flinching
mm mm.
and moving away, like, hint, hint.
but he liked gripped me on the arm and then his hand would appear from nowhere during the concert, he like kind of rubbed my arm and are you alright?
. oh it was just a nightmare!
i, i know i'm a real bitch saying all this.
but, you know i think it, i thought it was his dingy grey suit to begin with that smelt of moth balls but it, it was his breath.
it was, i don't know how it smelt 
of moth balls.
and he kept guffaw and going,
and get this awful blast of moth balls !
really?
it was, it was a complete nightmare !
oh.
and i, i wasn't prepared
i wasn't prepared for for it at all 
go on.
because afterwards i, he had his arm round me when we were leaving and said oh well, i've really enjoyed this evening, we'll do it again won't we?
and i pulled away and i said, well erm i so enjoyed the mozart i've always wanted to hear it.
hint!
hint!
i mean what could i do?
and then as we approached the tube station the arm around me again and erm and he 
but was he a fellow choir man as well?
yes!
it's awful you see because it's so 
i would have been, been very rude to him.
but no, but i can't couldn't afford to be rude to him, i've only just joined the choir.
well in future whenever he suggests something i think what you've got to do 
there's some in here.
okay?
i've got two here.
is never you know, join the breaks or whatever and just make sure you're not left alone 
mm.
you're with other girls.
well, i'm sorry, he just came on so strong.
mm.
and, so i was forced into lying.
i said erm i've enjoyed the concert but i'm afraid 
yeah.
a , er you know, i don't want there to be any.
misunderstanding, and he, he said explain.
so i had to lie.
certainly.
and i said erm, i'm going out with someone.
cos i thought he hasn't taken any of my hints so far.
erm, and he said, oh that sort of un , misunderstanding?
and then i thought i'd really put my foot in it and embarrassed both of us 
ha.
so there was silence until we got to the tube station and he said, how long have you been going out with this man?
said oh i thought oh becky would laugh if i told her this .
well er, january, i think.
mm.
yes, about ten months i suppose .
this phantom.
of the opera.
and erm oh he was, oh very lucky man!
blah, blah, blah.
i had high hopes of us.
ooh he kept, but he kept i'd even worked out my train to, from ealing down to
oh no!
erm , strawberry hill.
blah, blah, blah!
i'm sorry but i just think that is outrageous!
well i know.
so presumptuous.
say, because i'm meeting someone that he'd plan out his 
mm mm.
his route.
he said, i hope i'm not embarrassing you but i believe in being frank.
blah, blah.
and then to my horror 
er erm we changed to embankment and he was supposed to go on the district line over to ealing
yes.
and i was going down to waterloo for my train 
mm.
he said erm do you mind if i travel to richmond with you?
oh!
what could i say?
i mean no was ringing in my ears but i couldn't say that.
i mean, yes, i do mind.
erm so we walked in and out of carriages as he sought a pair of seats together and erm squashed down, he had me like penned into the window, like i've got my bag and my umbrella in between ha , and i'd already told him i was going out with someone.
he was going like that to my face.
like, i really felt abused.
i mean at the time
ya.
i felt sorry for him but i must admit when i got home and the following morning, and since then i've felt quite angry about it.
that's 
the next 
isn't it?
the next time you see the girls in the choir 
i'll bet they'll turn round and say 
well i, er, he ca , he was, he was then 
be careful of whatever his name is.
he was then saying erm now what about a concert this friday?
erm, there's such and such going on.
and there's one er a week on saturday, you know, let's go to both of those and i said erm i'm away those weekends.
i said, i'm going away this weekend, i'm going away next weekend 
yeah, let's not.
and he said erm have you got your diary with you?
and i said no.
and he said, hadn't you better check?
and then he said, i don't mean to put pressure on, but i want to get to know you, we've got so much in common and erm i want to take you out for dinner, not just go to the concert, but, we don't get to know each other that way.
i'll come down to richmond and take you out for dinner, how does that sound?
i said, i'll see you at choir.
but we don't get to see each other at the choir 
erm, because you don't stay back for a drink afterwards because you're going to strawberry hill.
i know it'll be easier when you're in fulham, blah, blah, blah, but erm pressure!
pressure.
pressure.
pressure.
crowding me in.
and then he said 
then it's , it's better to have a two-timer from 
then he said i'm lonely.
marks and spencers.
a lot easier to handle.
sorry rachel.
and then
no .
he said that 
i did that for your sister's benefit.
i'm not a loner, i'm lonely.
he said, i haven't had a relationship since nineteen eighty.
i was married for a couple of years in the seventies.
poor woman 
i've got 
probably committed suicide!
i'm sorry.
he hasn't had a relationship since nineteen
yeah.
eighty?
did i forget to mention that?
well, i'm sorry, the girls at work just fell about laughing.
nineteen eighty?
nineteen eighty.
and i said, oh i'm sure there's someone 
you ought to join dateline or something.
i said i'm there's somewhere out there for you.
and he was obviously really furious that i'd said that .
and i thought, yeah well i know i'd be cross if someone said to that me but i don't give a toss actually .
you should suggest that he join 
dateline and he sounds awful 
we'll, we'll put him on blind date.
shall we nominate him?
yeah .
and can you believe it erm
i don't believe .
thursday night i was living in dread of the choir.
and i trundling along the district line to the embankment across to sloane square and then hello, hello, i didn't expect to see you here.
oh oh!
i never met anyone on the tube before from choir.
and i'm sure my face was a picture.
i was just 
appalled!
i was just thinking about what a horrendous evening it had been the night before and then he 
confronted me 
with his awful beard and everything.
oh i dunno.
is there anyone in 
and i had 
the choir that lives near you, or sca , can travel with you?
actually there's paul, the guy who'd given me a lift to the concert and, and he mentioned going to the , the film i saw, erm but i knew he was going to the pub, he always goes to the pub afterwards.
so i pa , i told one girl in the choir what had happened, and i think to begin 
and what did she say?
with she thought i was overreacting cos she didn't really respond.
is she married or what?
and then , she is married.
er erm and then later on i, i, i think maybe she did realize, you know, cos i said i wasn't prepared for that and that hasn't happened before.
i didn't want to think, her to think that i was a show-off, you know 
yes.
oh i have fun with men all the time, chasing them and that.
mm mm.
in my dreams!
and er er 
she, she said to me on the way o , er as i was i said look i'm going to scoot now and she said well i hope you don't get any unwanted company on the way back.
and i really felt on edge walking back to 
mm mm.
the tube station cos i expected him to spring out 
well, that's my point you see.
from erm, an alleyway or 
but that man does live near you that can give you a lift.
i know, but then i, i'd have 
yeah but you'd also have 
to endure the pub with the other with don.
i know.
well i think the next time you just i mean, go home by yourself next time, you know if there was a i think you've got to make a point of of you know, not being alone with 
mm mm.
somebody like that around.
mm.
he's obviously obsessive.
mm!
he's not listened to a word you've said.
see he's been married before 
he said to me 
as well.
i mean 
he said to me on the train to richmond 
erm
stop!
there may well be someone in, in the wings but that's irrelevant to me.
i'll ignore that, i'm in with a chance.
.
i think if you feel like that 
well there's no way, no way of there being 
what's his excuse?
yes.
ya.
cos he, he's being rude to you.
he has totally insulted you.
so i wouldn't feel at all embarrassed.
i mean, sod the choir!
okay, you're in the same choir
sod the choir!
but he doesn't own it.
plenty of choirs.
he's not going to get you kicked out of the choir.
if anything, he should be kicked out if he's like that.
mm.
any new girl that comes along is gonna get him leching after her.
who's the choir leader?
er th , we have a conductor called andy , who is our guest conductor.
alright.
but is there nobody like erm
you know like an orchestra leader?
there isn't er, there isn't somebody who's sort of responsible for coordinating the choir, the choir leaders?
there's a chairman.
bu , you know there's a committee with a chairman.
but we all get changed in the same room when we're at concerts.
and he's .
what, men and women together?
yes!
i know, i was appalled that saturday.
oh god !
and obviously 
the only other
maybe i'm misjudging but maybe he was observing .
i feel totally embarrassed .
i feel awful!
god they've got 
i , you're too polite though.
i wouldn't be as polite as you are.
just tell him to bugger off!
yeah i would've done too.
get one of those erm attack
rape alarm 
rape 
things, yeah.
rape alarms.
and just bleep that when he comes near you .
yes.
absolutely .
honestly!
rape !
yeah.
honestly!
attempted rape !
you know, if he starts creating a scene then you say that retched thing has gone off again in my bag.
you know, d'ya know what i mean?
just startle him.
mm.
cos then you're not going to be 
cos if he's not being put off by a boyfriend which most men would.
mm.
well if needs 
mm!
be, i mean i gearoid will turn up.
gearoid.
are you nominating ?
and i'll play the boyfriend.
he's nominated gearoid.
i'll leave my handbag at home.
or i'll , or i'll turn up
oh god !
no it's really sweet of you 
no what, perhaps what you should do is
mm.
one of you should go and pick her up
that's what i'm saying.
mm.
from the choir one night and you can say to him oh my boyfriend's picking me up and then see how .
or you, bring me over and introduce me.
mm.
and i'll say 
you know, i'll say thank you for taking anna-marie to, to the mozart concert.
mm.
i'll have to do it
but i think she was very .
it was really, it was really , it was really very helpful to her at her choir and her practice that night.
er erm
yes, cos i'm gonna have to make up some
rubbish about
seeing him.
see my boyfriend isn't too interested in concerts
and that's why i've enjoyed coming out this evening.
and here, here am i, and then i'll say you know of course i you know i'm indebted to you because i realize that, you know, anna-marie is quite prepared to go out with other men if she wants to 
but i like and make sure it's alright.
i'm actually going to join in the choir.
you'll be able to take her 
i can't even have a 
.
.
anna-marie's told me so much about it .
and can you tell me the ta , time of trains from .
yum yum, look, come on over here.
and that's what he was like on wednesday night, he said look 
as so , more or less as soon as he'd said hello he said erm thirty two and two minutes past the hour, they're your trains.
i checked them up.
so i thought i couldn't even say
look
why?
at one like ten past.
but he didn't .
well, i would go along and 
mm.
pick you up and meet you one evening.
that's very sweet of you michael.
i must say you 
he doesn't know where you've told him you're going to be does he?
no, don't ever tell 
no.
them.
and that's something
no.
christine said.
thank god he doesn't know where she lives here cos he'll be round knocking on the door.
i know, but the appalling thing is that the address list was given out at the a g m and christine's phone number is on it.
cos rachel rang me at work and said i need your phone number.
i've been fobbing her off saying, i haven't got anywhere permanent.
she said, i need your home number.
well you'll just have to change it when you leave.
give them, give them hazlemere number or something.
isn't that too far?
mm mm.
sorry er i 
but who was that, who was that list handed round to?
to everyone in the choir presumably.
oh that's dreadful!
oh god!
so you really 
don't you 
tell christine that.
cos she actually said to me, thank god we're not gonna have him bothering us.
well i thought 
don't erm 
i'll have to say i'm rachel because our voices sound the same.
yeah well just don't let christine know.
just
mm.
just say that
don't erm that's very bazaar don't you 
mm mm.
think?
i think, i think that's, i 
phone numbers handed out.
no i don't think that's on.
because if you had, i don't think christine's even got her number in the book.
he's got my work number.
so that's issuing someone's number.
oh yeah.
you know
mm mm.
an ex-directory one.
mm.
i mean it's one thing letting the committee know for their records or something.
don't tell them you have one.
but not just for the 
well that's it, i gave it 
just say you don't have the telephone.
out.
mm.
yes, but when you move to fulham.
oh!
i've just moved into a new flat, i don't have a telephone.
yeah.
mm mm.
and stick to it.
yes.
and say the other one isn't valid now.
mm.
well just give your work number.
mm.
i think that's fine if you give them your work number.
that's what 
yes but what about work?
i've given.
i mean you're there five days a week.
i know that's what i've given.
mm mm.
i'm delaying you now am i?
you're not.
i thought that meal was so delicious!
mm mm.
this gravy is delicious as well!
mm mm.
do you like it?
mm mm.
took me thirty seconds to make that gravy.
so what's that made out of?
booze.
i chose the booze 
and has it got alcohol in it?
it has.
i wondered whether it had.
erm it's made from bisto, this instant
mm mm.
granules.
you'd never believe that would you?
no.
chicken variety.
with 
oh right.
er two tablespoons of madeira
oh lovely!
lovely!
and some redcurrant and port jelly.
mm mm!
mm.
it's absolutely delicious!
well we've nothing to mop it up with.
dab it behind the ears.
i'm gonna get yum yum to clear mine off.
it's good that bottle of gravy.
you'd never know it.
no that's great.
little trick i learnt years 
cos that's nice.
chris does one actually.
years and years and years ago.
mm mm.
and you can vary it though, if you're having lamb by putting some mint jelly.
delicious!
well i certainly wouldn't worry about being rude to that to don the train spotter.
no, i think there's some people you have to be very blunt to.
donald .
mm.
don .
he's, he's an obsessive person.
i think his mummy and daddy were poor.
did he tell you?
being a train spotter.
who?
you did.
who?
no, i thought, i thought you meant you'd spoken to him after my date.
no,they were on before you went on your date .
left mine afterwards .
mm mm.
no he's very odd.
cos i did 
does he friends within the choir?
i did more or less ignore on the tube journey and the walk to the choir that evening, i mean 
mm mm.
i'm very aware of
not encouraging him.
yes.
so, i i didn't er, i didn't instigate a conversation at all.
but it sounds as though he doesn't realize that.
i didn't ask him whether he got back 
but some people are so 
alright, i didn't i answered in monosyllables.
mm.
i didn't instigate a conversation.
and then i ran out after the 
but he probably couldn't believe his luck that he was going out with you that night.
he said i couldn't believe you said 
i mean what happened erm 
yes straightaway.
i was thinking 
how's that?
that's because of the mozart, not you.
in highlighted pen that you know so when he goes out with someone in ninete , in two thousand he'll say to someone the last time i went out with someone was in nineteen ninety three.
it's sad isn't it?
but i felt sorry for him, i did, but that was my immediate reaction that 
has he got a good voice?
yes.
he's a good singer?
mm.
he is.
well he's obviously musical if he's involved in e m i as well.
mm mm.
but he can be, he's very, perhaps a bit bossy in it, and erm may, maybe bitter i feel.
doesn't have a very good sense of humour.
mm mm.
i don't think anybody should go out with someone on their own in the beginning, i really don't.
do you not, gearoid.
no.
not nowadays.
i don't care what anybody says.
whether it's two 
yeah.
guys or two women 
mm mm.
or anything, i really don't think anyone should put themselves in that position.
you're better off going out as a threesome or a foursome
yeah.
yeah but if you get asked out 
but until you 
for a date, you're not going to say can i bring my friend?
by a total stranger?
well i suppose i wouldn't do that with a total stranger.
she did.
i know, but a stra , what do you mean, what do you classify as a stranger?
someone you don't know 
yeah.
anything about.
i know that they're they're 
because i go out 
they're involved in the ca 
if 
in the, erm the choir.
just because you work with the guy
but you've never had a conversation with him.
mm mm.
just because you know the guy from marks and spencers.
i did that with graham.
i went out, i hadn't even i'd said hello to him, that was it.
you see, i think that's really strange in this day and age.
yes but you're meeting in a public place.
not like, i mean i was making my way there, he was making his way there and i wouldn't want them to come and pick me up in the car
mm mm.
and me go off, i wouldn't do that without really you know, having been out with him a few times.
but i'd make 
good.
my own way there and meet them.
in a public place.
but if i met, but then that's slightly different because if i met someone in a nightclub or something like that then i would be quite wary.
mm mm.
i don't think i'd i don't know i don't know what i'd do.
i'd feel quite differently.
but something like the choir or where you've been working, i don't know you, i, i've got this thing which is
well i still 
i think 
think
you, you know you feel safe .
that even in something like the choir it's somebody that you should of struck up a, er a relationship you know, over several 
the 
intervals.
mm.
yeah.
yeah.
and you suddenly, you thought to yourself well you know i actually quite like this chap.
mm.
you know, wouldn't it be nice if he had asked me out.
and then suddenly the day 
mm mm.
comes along.
not to sort of well you, you can't be blamed because i mean yo , in the innocent you were actually going because of the concert.
i know.
you see i ne 
but he didn't , you know, he, he can't believe his luck that somebody 
no.
as attractive as you 
said yes 
he's got this goat beard and this hairy bottom lip!
you know, breathe that smells of moth balls, i mean who would have thought of that.
and he, and 
if he were taking several of you out why didn't you say to one of the other girls why don't you come?
did he have a pair of tickets?
cos it was when we were walking down
michael can i have a look please?
oh sorry !
thank you.
oh sorry.
oh gross!
they are beautiful!
my darling would you pass me
can i have some more milk?
lovely.
thank you
very much.
i better not put these on the table.
you did very well with these.
interesting.
these are the ones that i saw on the 
yes but you've got those brown ones that paula gave you.
i know, but i don't wear brown.
which is why .
i think it's lovely though with black.
they're very 
yes.
smart aren't they?
well who gave you, did you like rachel's nice jacket?
yeah.
i said that to you.
yes, okay.
it brings out
yeah.
you see i haven't got any unus , i've got stuff a bit like that, but i haven't got any anything like this.
the heel and everything's lovely isn't 
yeah.
it?
you look very dressy aren't you?
may i start my chocolate?
absolutely.
don't don't dribble it.
yes.
put it round this way.
i thought i'm going to eat some.
mm.
yes because we won't be going 
after that comes.
late tonight.
could you could you pass me the milk please?
yes.
my greatest pleasure.
try this.
oh that's nice.
because it's so busy for me.
on five in this one?
yeah.
pardon ?
what is he actually saying ?
and we haven't got a clue.
see you've done very well knocking those together.
think nothing of it.
neither do we.
haphazard.
one week it'll be all savoury biscuits to go with and chocolate cake.
this cake's lovely are you not having any?
yes.
oh yes,
just that i haven't passed her any
oh sorry!
cake.
sorry .
oh sorry, sorry, sorry !
oh well please calm down.
just grab the knife up over head and down at the table.
this is a very timely supper.
you were tempted to take a knife out of?
i didn't have time.
michael was asking about my menswear.
but he'd be made-to-measure.
but he didn't have any did he?
waistcoats.
oh no!
i remember we saw in the other shop it happened again.
do you have any use for your french jacket at all?
when did you buy some jackets in france?
he .
and then we got know the go and get myself out of marks and spencers this weekend which for menswear particularly it was very dowdy .
and, and we .
snobs!
unlike your shoes rachel, it's glossed out.
no.
oh dear.
was that in the sale, or that was the normal price?
in the sale.
i've never seen this gentleman .
really?
twenty five pounds is very good.
don't you want some more milk?
no.
no we'll just pocket the money.
but you said that they buy
yes, but they sell, you can buy 
i doubt it.
articles, but they sell them back again.
no thank you.
no thank you.
sure?
no i'm alright.
okay.
but then they se , you see they sell those in their staff shop.
but
i thought it was meant to be anonymous.
.
it's up to a point .
tell us about your job .
i can't stand it !
aye well 
whose , whose mother did you see this morning?
mm mm.
why have you just tipped cream on that?in cornwall.
not indeed, i recognise it.
the royal albert hall.
th the commissionaires on the doorway.
but will they be defending .
yeah .
that is a west sussex term .
been teaching it to hazlemere.
keep your hands close to the dish now michael.
and we just .
getting michael giggly.
no red rock's come back.
i just wondered if you'd rather 
pay it back.
it is on.
isn't it?
testing, testing, testing .
you're not supposed to know .
oh my, i'm not supposed to see.
switch it off now for a few minutes.
okay?
ah ah!
i'll leave you with that.
the worm.
look at these flowers!
so these are lovely!
mm mm.
five cheesies to one slurp of drink.
hmm mm.
why is it pure gin?
i think ted would be proud of me.
well, my stars say if you find yourself at a low ebb this weekend don't worry.
every so often we all need to wind down.
there you are.
if your a little numb, cynical, or apathetic it's probably a healthy sign.
it simply means you're in the process of recharging your batteries and reassessing your priorities .
well anna-marie is there something you want to tell us?
i'm cancer.
what does it say about me.
mm.
market forces do not make the world go round.
the earth does not spin on its axis for profit, the sun does not shine because it happens to have shares in a household firm.
if any force guides the universe, universe, it surely must be love.
in allowing yourself to be led now by the same illogical but kind motive, you are not being as silly as you think.
indeed, the more selfless you can be this weekend, the better things will work out 
oh how nice.
that sounds good to me .
what's virgo?
better .
it doesn't make sense to buy the cheapest brand of baked beans to save a few pence.
it's true.
so then fill your car tank at the most expensive petrol station in town.
if you're going to make economies , make efficient ones.
similarly, if you are going to be extravagant, be so in an a area,where you're actually going to see the benefit 
so you see 
ha 
i told you you should have those two pairs of shoes.
happiness will come to all virgos who aim the right arrows at the right targets this weekend .
gearoid, what are you?
it depends.
it is the nineteenth of february, which one does it fall on theirs?
pisces or aquarius?
pisces.
aquaria , aquarius.
mhm.
so the term a minor crime i, i don't think is a very good one to be using.
mm, yes
i was actually mugged on holiday er then years ago and i was held up with a gun and it was the most horrendous feeling
where was that?
in barbados and er some young chaps had saw me lying on the beach and er they stole my bag and they stuck a gun in my face and freeze lady, you don't do any thing, you just let them take what they want and its a horrible feeling when your there, we were there for three weeks and it just totally spoiled the holiday but the ramifications of it don't just stop once you got on the plane home, it was very frightening
well your talking about it now and, and with a degree of emotion, do you still feel it?
oh, it was feel , it was so terrifying, you just, you regard every one with suspicion after that.
mm, mm
i actually feel, there was a time i used to think it wouldn't happen to me because if i was in that situation i would do this, i would do the next thing and when it did actually happen to me it took me ages to get over
mm
the trauma because your so helpless and
what was, what was the it can i ask that happened?
mm
i mean if you don't want to say its alright
no, i don't particularly want to say
yeah
but you, you've, you build up the strength in yourself and believe that your, your in vulnerable and then to find out that you are vulnerable, it really scary
yeah i think that's a very good point that, that the fact that you've lost control whether its of your, your own personal safety
yeah
or, or your, or your property or, or the people you care for, yes
i was actually flashed at er in the library and what i thought of i would of done was completely different to what i actually did, erm, i thought i would of been quite calm about it, but in fact i ran out the library and i ran straight back to my flat erm, i was at that point i think about twenty one
mm
and i'd just finished training as a nurse and i thought i was really cool and calm and i would of reported it, but i didn't
you didn't?
no
why was that?
i think i was about twenty one several years ago now 
oh, i see 
well its interesting that you've remembered it, i mean do you wish you had reported it?
yes, yes
yeah
and its lasted the memory of it and i do wish i had reported it or at least gone to the library staff.
there
i am a victim support counsellor and why is it that criminals get all the help you know when they don't give help to the, the victims of crime?
is that your feeling that, that criminals get more help than victims?
well they get lawyers and all the supports 
what's, what's , what's the general view on that?
to because we've got the legal aid system, but i mean my son was also a repeated robbed in his car and what shocked me was the, the police they said to me you shouldn't have a pretty car any way, he had a brand new x r three
you shouldn't have a pretty car, i mean that is nonsense
mm, yes 
so he's got an old banger now, you know, they don't break into it.
as a police officer, any woman who do decide to report a crime to us they are offered quite a lot of advise
mm, mm
we refer victims onto victim support groups, if its a case of rape then their passed on to the rape counsellor's and also
survivor's, we will be with er a victim all the way through the enquiry and if at the end of that enquiry they will also be given details of the criminal injury's compensation board.
in your experience is there er, er a distinct failure on the part of people, i don't know whether you'd say men or women to report a lot of crime, i mean i don't, i don't know whether you can assess what proportion of crime's aren't reported?
i think there's always a fear to come forward and bring the details of a crime out into the open
mm
er, it can be a very terrifying experience for a woman, but i think part of the mental experience would be coming forward to the police and they had dealt with now in a far more caring and understanding manner, that that can actually help in a process of getting over it eventually.
yeah, now your saying that, is that, in your time working with the police that the, previously people weren't dealt with with such sympathy?
well i would say that there has been a lot of changes since the new home office guide lines were issued in nineteen eighty five
yeah
before hand there were the same designated police officer of the same specialized suites, things have changed and they have changed for the better.
i wonder if that's everyone's experience?, would, would any one agree or, or disagree with that?,
monica i think i might ask you erm i think your involved with the changed project is that right?
yeah
so, you, what does, what does that do exactly?
well we actually take men who have been convicted of offences involving domestic violence
mm, mm
and put them through an educational programme as a conditional of a probation order.
i think what were dealing within a programme like this is very much the tip of the iceberg
mm
because i think women have traditionally been very reluctant both to report domestic violence and hearing echo's of what women are saying here, in terms of women looking into their own behaviours, to why it is happening rather than er having it labelled as a crime and i think one of the, the, the main thrust of the project, the women involved in is to raise the profile of domestic violence into being a criminal act.
i think if your, in, in a relationship with the person that commits the crime against you, as victims of domestic violence
then there's a tendency to look for the reason you were assaulted within yourself
mm
i think its very significant, here we are and lots of people have admitted to being a victim of crime but statistics show that twenty five per cent of women will be assaulted within a relationship and yet no women here has said that and that's probably because the women who have been so assaulted feels somehow it is their own fault, its somehow shameful.
possibly also they might not want to go on national television
and say that, which, which i would sympathize with entirely i mean you know, why, why bring it on yourself, yes
erm, i work for ?in edinburgh and erm, er all too often er we see er female relations er of male offenders, er this lady struck a chord er especially when it comes to serious crime
mm
where women examine themselves erm, if its the mother or the granny er did i bring him up wrongly, erm the girl friends or wife's er is it something that i didn't understand and at the same time it er really changes their lives
mm
er to visit prison's year after year after year er with children to prison's er all over the country
mm
and erm i just think that women are so strong and, and another thing that i find er that is very important, is perhaps there's women here we should look at why there's only one female prison in scotland and about fourteen male lot and including young offenders institutions and er, i mean what is it we are as agenda er just less criminally minded, more controlled, more clever, what, you know we should be teaching men.
but it is the case that twenty two per cent of crimes are committed by women, erm and i think that the situation with women committing crime is quite complex and complicated one, erm that really needs quite er, a great detail of discussion, and one of the, the points i was going to make was this question of feeling guilty
mm
erm, when we are victims of crime, and personally i think that there are two main reasons for that, one reason certainly is that when women erm are victims of crime that there is of a sexual nature or domestic violence, part of the way that we have been brought up and part of the way that those crimes have been portrayed, is to portray them as our fault
yeah
er and some of the solutions that are offered to reduce those crimes involve women restricting, their movements and their freedoms, but i think one of the other reasons why generally people who are victims of crime be they men or women feel guilty is because one of the implicit elements in tradition crime prevention strategies is for us to reduce the opportunity for crime
mm, mm.
not to leave our handbags er in the car, not to leave the windows open and so on and i think that really dodges the issue of why people commit criminal acts.
you were just saying, you know, that we should just walk in the streets and things like, but i would just not walk out in the streets at night, i've got to be in the car with the doors locked and, and i just wouldn't walk out in the streets at night, not because any thing has happened to me, but its just through what i've heard, i'm just terrified.
so your willing to restrict your movement 
yes i am , i am afraid aha.
socially and psychologically women are brought up to care for relationships, to care for people, they want to do it well, where it goes wrong they tend to blame themselves, but equally we have eminent members of the judiciary who in the past have commented in some of the cases of severe assaults on women, the kind of er quote that you were making
mm, mm
she asked for, she shouldn't of been walking along the street at twelve o'clock and when we have those attitudes at the top of our legal and judicial system its no wonder women blame themselves and indeed maybe blamed.
well perhaps, but women get very angry as well, but nothing seems to change, i mean what the heck do you do about it when some estimable er gentleman and it almost invariably must be a gentleman since their by far the huge proportion of er presiding judge's and magistrate's comes out with that kind of comment about er a woman's victim reputation or behaviour as he sees it, i mean what is, what is the answer there?
if every one who was offended wrote a letter, that would be a start.
so once again its, its, its your responsibility to complain about the ill that has been done to you, yes.
i think your treated completely differently if your assaulted in the street than you are if your assaulted in your home
mm, mm
i was treated abominably by the police when i was assaulted in the home
er, when you say you were treated abominably what do you mean?
over a number of years i was subjected to domestic violence, erm, the last time i left i didn't report it right away, morally it was my son, i didn't want to drag him through the court, but when i did i was told no, your too late, you will just be seen as a woman scorned, your trying to get revenge, and that's it, no, i'm not taking a statement.
so what's your general feeling at the end of that particular experience?
furious
and er, and, presumably your attitude to the police is not a sympathetic one
no
is that, is that general?
as far as domestic violence is concerned, yes.
yeah, i worked with a voluntary group for a while and i remember helping one lady go through, she was raped, and go through the courts, and all her past life was brought up, i mean i was so upset for her and yet the fact that he had actually raped twice before wasn't brought up, but her past life was brought up and the man actually got off in the end because she just could not cope with being on the stand and dealing with it all and it was just so terrible that, that, that the, the ina ,
mm
the differences should be male and female like this was so terrible
so your describing a system which you feel double victimizes someone who is, who's
i think it can do, i mean it was a long time ago and i'm, i'm 
yeah 
told that it has changed, but at that time, and i know my feeling was left that if i was raped i wouldn't never go to the police.
well a number of things have come up so let's just take a couple of votes as er, from hearing from a few people and of which people haven't managed to speak so, first of all, er, er people talked about fear being larger than the incidence of assault, are you afraid to go out in the dark?, button one for yes and button two for no do you find that your afraid to go out in the dark, and then this hundred and that's a very, i mean that's, that's a very significant figure fifty seven out of this hundred women say yes that their afraid to go out in the dark from time to time, i mean that, that is not as it should be, let me ask you are you ever afraid in your own home?, button one for yes and button two for no and that two is a very worrying figure, twenty nine of of this hundred say yes their afraid in their home, let me ask you this have you trained in self defence?, button one for yes and button two for no, i mean its something that comes up from time to time and i don't know what your view and whether or not its a good idea, well twelve of the hundred here have er, eighty eight say no, of those twelve would you recommend it?, did it make you feel better?, yes
at the time it did, but i think i've forgotten every thing i learned.
yeah i, i er thought about self defence but i keep thinking about things like that's fine but if someone has a knife or a gun, the one might of self defence that i have been trained on or taught in can possibly help and i can't really see it as being very very helpful because
mm, mm
very seldom is er one to one situation where the perpetrator does not have a gun or a weapon of some description so i don't see it as being very helpful.
do you think in this country that's the case?, people have a weapon now certainly if they 
i think so 
were doing this programme in the united states that'll be, but then of course you living in the states you'll probably all have guns
i mean i don't, i wonder, do, do any of you have a gun?, let me ask you that
do you, do, do you have a gun?, button one for yes and button two for no well i'm not going to ask you to identify yourselves the three of you
who have, well in fact, i must ask you this would you, would you like to have a gun?, button one for yes, button two for no, i'll tell you my own view on this after you've voted and nine of you say yes you would, what, what, would any body liked to say why they'd like to have a gun?, yes
well i erm, i was, i was burgled about a year ago and i'm am ex er, i'm a retired criminal lawyer, and, but i, i felt that if i lived in the states and trained in the states and i carried a gun then and i felt very vulnerable in not having a gun because he, i was in my own home and he fist me with a knife
mm, mm
you, er, it had happened because i had been, i had had a lot of training and a lot of swindles and thing, i was able to talked to him and i talked to him for an hour and a half er, i was curious for one thing to find out why he was, he, he was breaking into people's houses, so that the fact that he was doing it for, to, to get money for drugs
mm, mm
and i, i told him i wasn't stupid enough to keep money in the house as an ex er as an ex lawyer and erm, where, er it so happened as i say that i talked to he, he didn't take any thing in fact at the end he apologise for having chosen the wrong house and he
went to put the, he, he went away again, but i, i did mention to the police, who i might say were very helpful were ninety per cent of burglars don't get cleared up so of course it wasn't important and i never expected it would be, but i did mention to the police at the time that i would like an future occasion because i've been trying to use guns in america er to have a gun in the house but they er, but they wouldn't erm agree to it at all 
mm, mm
i asked if i could have a fire arm, she said oh no, no, no, they
mm
but, but i think that we'll get into that stage in britain
do you?
but erm , er at a stage that they are in and been for a long time in the states as we will have to er get armed, well i'm sorry to say this but it seems like it 
well no its your view, although ninety one of the women here said no and er, if i had a vote i'd, i'd probably say no because i'm absolutely convinced i would use it if i had it
and er, and well, well, one can be abrupt at times and the that could lead 
to other things, we've kind of veered of the, one of the subjects that we were er, we did get onto which was how the police and the courts er handle er well victims and indeed criminals, i wonder if i might conflate erm both those groups into one question, its a very broad question, but i wonder if you think by and large the police do a good job, erm button one for yes and button two for no, erm and the majority here say yes, seventy seventy people say yes the, the police do a good job and since we've talked about the courts do you think the courts do a good job by and large?, we've been talking specifically about erm some of the more bizarre erm statements that have come from the bench, particularly in with reference to crimes erm, that have treated against women, well now, seventy nine say no, so the police comes thumbs up, but the courts are way down, now not surprisingly there aren't many representatives from the courts er amongst this hundred 
because er there weren't all that many er available, what, what do you think of, twenty one of you said yes, of the twenty one who said yes are you surprised that the great majority of this hundred women are so unimpressed by, by the courts system, who said yes and would you like to defend your answer?, yes
er, i must declare an, an interest because i am a, a court lawyer, but i think that a lot of people say no because of the media pres , presentation, you only hear bad stories, they don't hear the good, good stories about the attempts to make the courts more efficient and i think that on the whole and with the circumstances that the courts have to deal with they do a very good job.
so its my fault again
the media any, any, yes, up there.
you've got to mention in scotland the one thing that we've got to be proud of is the children's panel system because 
mm 
we, its one of the only countries in the world where children can go and in a non judged mental way, a panel can work out what the best thing is to do with them, its unique.
we've hardly managed to touch on prisons at all, or though, although, i know that we have amongst us hundred people who er, who are, are responsible for and er and have dedicated much time to working in prisons and i don't know whether there is sufficient people here qualified to comment or not whether the prisons do a good job, so i'll ask some one who's bound to be a slightly partial audrey , there's only one women's prison as some one said earlier, now your an ex-governor, now is that right?
i'm a governor at present er working in prison service headquarters in edinburgh, but i previously worked in pentonville, erm i think it depends on what you mean by do by prisons do a good job, i think that's a terribly vague and wide ranging question
well i, well that's why i'm not putting it to the vote
i think in terms of our our first duty to protect the public by keeping offenders locked up securely, yes by and large we do a good job and that, by keeping good order in prisons we do a good job generally speaking incidence are very few and far between after the mid eighties, things have settled down considerably.
in terms of offering prisoners a range of opportunities to address their offending behaviour and to take up erm an interest or activity which will channel them into other activities, i think at the moment we do less of a good job than we will two years down the line, i think the emphasis now is very much on opportunity and responsibility
mm, mm
encouraging offenders to except responsibility for what they have done, but also to take the opportunity to do something positive about that and in that were delivering a service to the public and to the offender, so i think things are improving
that we should keep a watching brief
yes
would any one like to comment on that?,
jackie
i've just spent six months in cottonvale and i mean its degrading, i mean cos your locked up in a cell from eight o'clock at night till six o'clock in the morning and your not got any toilet facilities you've got to use a potty if you want to go to the toilet and it is degrading, i mean there's people in there, well i was a first offender the first time i was in, but i mean there's people in there seventeen year old that haven't a clue about life in general and it is degrading for them.
so the claims that are made for the good of prison does your not, your not impressed by, well we have to give right of reply to patricia as you work at cottonvale.
i would say that if a person is locked up from that time at night, there's circumstances, their perhaps observation for their own safety, erm any body else that can be trusted at night sanitation are not locked in, they have the facilities to go to the toilet during the night, i mean this person that's just said must of obviously been ob observation or was locked up for a reason.
were getting into an area which i think is a whole different programme and before this programme started i might tell you we were having a little er discussion amongst ourselves whether or not er zoo's were good for animals and i suppose there is a discussion about whether prisons are inevitably going to be degrading because of, because of what er, what, what a prison represents which is a curtailment of freedom, but we don't have time in this programme, so that's another one for next year, can i ask you, we've, we've touched a lot of basis and it must be frustrating that we can't pursue er to the end some of the things we've er, we've picked on, but can i ask you a couple of final questions, as far as you know have you committed a crime?, button one for yes and button two for no, as far as you know, i mean we haven't got time to go into what they might be so your perfectly free to be very honest and honestly reveals that three people aren't quite sur , oh yes there they are
well there are fifty one law abiding citizens and there are forty nine potential felons if only they had been 
found out, my final question tonight is do you enjoy crime fiction? and that includes television, after all the station that this programme goes out on, wins a lot of revenue for making a very popular er detective fictional thing called taggart, i don't know whether you watch that, or what you read but seventy eight of you enjoy crime fiction, now there's an interesting paradox that we will discuss, why you can discuss at home, we'll discuss it now, good night.
what do you get the headphones for as well?
i don't know.
he didn't seem to know what they were in there for.
oh.
well you can listen to what you've taped with the headphones.
what?
you can listen to what you've taped.
oh 
you can play it back yeah, if you want to.
oh.
i notice if you put the the headphones in it would erm you'd maybe be listening to it as it's taping?
i don't think you can do that.
did you have to sign for something to say that you've had it?
to say i've had it, yeah.
yeah.
when's he coming back?
next friday.
next friday, oh right.
and is that the microphone?
yes.
and are you supposed to wear that?
er stick it in your t wherever, yeah.
in your 
stick it where you like.
, you what?
stick it where you like.
but d does it need to be uncovered?
no.
it's got erm it's own recording level.
yeah.
and even if it and are you supposed to tell people that you're recording what they're saying or just record it 
erm 
and then tell them afterwards?
i suppose you should tell them that you're going to tape the conversation maybe, yeah.
yes.
i don't suppose that matters really.
but i mean, if you erm if you put your headphones on you see, they might just think erm you're listening to a walkman.
and er they would come up with some bad language towards you.
then especially if you told them you were recording what they said .
could be dangerous.
i've asked brian to take the dog out as well, when he comes back.
i won't have time now.
no.
and i'm going to chester tomorrow.
are you?
yeah.
ah!
didn't i tell you about that?
there's no petrol in the car.
you mean every time i have that car i have to put petrol in.
no i put it in the last two times.
twenty quid's worth.
so you'll have you watch my little car.
watch it or wash it?
watch it.
be careful.
i'll be very careful with your little car john.
well it's not far to chester.
it's not as far to chester as it is to swansea is it?
i don't suppose it is.
mm?
no.
go the motorways though, if you can.
oh.
you'll have to watch for, for the roadworks.
i mean the roadworks on the m 6 are diabolical now.
mm.
i it took us three and a half hours coming back from swansea.
but we stopped off for half an hour as well.
and i think it's longer coming back that way.
over the bridge.
no it isn't.
it isn't.
you sure?
i'd be positive.
shorter.
cos th i remember the first time i went down that way over the bridge.
it was about a hundred and eighty miles i clocked up.
er but coming back i only clocked up about a hundred and twenty.
what was the mileage when we got there?
a hundred and eleven?
something like that, yeah.
so it was three hundred coming back or total three hundred.
i can't remember now exactly.
i i think it does make a difference, going over the bridge.
i i found it when i was driving the last time.
but i couldn't remember where the turn off was to come up the scenic route.
cos i was reading, and you'd passed it.
yeah well you could erm go up, go down the m 50 into ross and then go from there.
yeah but th there was a turn off and i didn't know whether the turn off was at cardiff and we went past it.
yeah, there is a oh to go back that way?
yeah.
yeah.
you could turn off for abergavenny again.
abergavenny yeah, but that was, that was going straight up
so, where's she gone now?
who, patricia?
well, she was going to birmingham and then she was going to in a careers office.
they close at about four o'clock don't they?
yeah, very probably.
and she was hoping that they would have sent her for an interview down there.
in the afternoon.
think she's probably staying in birmingham.
well, birmingham's on the cards cos steve, stevey-boy works there doesn't he?
pardon me?
what?
food.
come on brian and get in the shopping.
food food food food food food 
how's brian?
food food.
glorious food.
no doubt.
oy.
your dinner's on top of the cooker.
plate might be hot.
eh!
who's got a walkman?
me.
how come?
a bloke give me one.
told you we should have let him in.
oh it's got a microphone as well.
yeah.
it's on at the moment.
recording?
oh i see.
why's that?
oh some experiment?
right.
some market research just to see how many times you swear at me.
really?
yeah.
oh that's good.
so there will be er
plenty on it.
we should win any competitions then.
hands down i think.
i can't eat any more of that.
macaroni cheese?
mm.
hey.
it tastes alright for a few mouthfuls and then it like gets a bit monotonous.
i've just been up to tesco's.
mm?
who were you talking to?
i was talking to er simon and dave and all the rest of the lads 
yeah.
bragging about your bike.
and er, no actually.
dave goes have you got your bike yet?
i goes yeah, just been to pick it up.
he goes oh and i suppose you loved every minute of it?
what's that grey thing john?
has it fallen off the roof?
ooh.
what's what?
that grey thing on the ground.
oh yeah.
it's off the erm
flue?
no, it's off 
vent?
it's off the toilet erm
the vent.
the vent.
oh i'll pop back out there.
i'll put it in the garage.
we won't lose it then.
it just slides on.
but the wind licked it off i suppose.
i'm definitely not putting it back on today, but i will put it back on .
well 
do you know that chap two doors down with the b m w?
mm.
the wind set his alarm off.
really?
mm.
on his car?
shook it?
yeah.
mm, must be very sensitive.
upstairs, on the bed, vaseline on your nose.
now.
move it.
how much did my shopping come?
go on.
eight pound seventy.
go upstairs.
oh that was good.
hurry up.
what?
he's going as well.
he's gone.
he goes upstairs, on the bed, vaseline on your nose go on.
and he's gone up.
i think he's getting hooked on the taste of vaseline, that dog.
yeah.
so it's i'm gonna pop round to matt's tonight.
who's matt?
matt .
where's he live?
bromsgrove.
mm.
he the one with the bike?
yeah.
the one that dropped out of college?
work.
yeah.
yeah.
well i'll ring him up.
see if he's in.
you mean you're not going to show off to john ?
oh yeah.
i'm gonna call for him on the way.
does he know matt?
no.
i seen andy in town today walking round with his erm headphones in.
oh yeah.
mm.
that tasty?
it is actually.
it's a bit big though.
well john demolished my little omelette pan.
oh i see.
mm.
so i had to use his frying pan.
rick.
let's have a look at your face.
oh nice.
did you get vaseline on?
mm.
oh, yeah i've got some now.
did you get your vaseline on rick?good boy.
i wonder if these people that have to listen to these tapes can understand doggy language as well?
no.
no?
what do you think rick?
did john tell you anybody that takes part will get erm a marks and spencers' voucher?
oh?
mm.
wonder if we'll get any, any vouchers for the dog?
in the pet food shop.
he makes enough noise doesn't he?
yeah, yeah.
it was also noted today at these er presentations that i was the one with the least brummie accent.
oh.
which made me feel good.
well except for andy.
mm we oh yeah andy's nigerian.
the nigerian.
mm.
yeah.
except for him of course, but cos i was getting a bit upset that my voice was going a bit brummie.
oh right.
i've given her her hairdryer back on trial, i've told her.
if she leaves it plugged in and switched on again she won't get it back.
yeah.
she's definitely unplugged the hairdryer and she's unplugged her radio as well.
because it ain't on.
i ain't having the house burnt down.
bloody hairdryers.
well want to know if rick joins in the conversation will we get any vouchers for doggy food?
yeah, we do don't we?
yeah we do.
you are cheeky.
what about her food?
tell mary.
tell mary all about it.
i don't want to know about it rick.
well who, who noticed that you had the least brummie accent?
the instructors
oh.
and all the other lads.
oh right.
did they record it or that, no?
which is a good job.
mm.
cos most of us were petrified anyway.
and that's a bit like that erm the teaching skills that i had to do that time when i was on the course.
mm?
erm and i had to think up something that i do as a hobby er to teach other people.
i, i did those little flowers you see and took them in.
and er it is quite nervewracking really to sit there.
specially when the instructors come over and they're sort of sitting watching as well.
well the bad thing was, as soon as i picked my cards up i dropped them all you know?
mm.
all your flash cards?
good morning yeah.
good morning ladies and gentlemen pshoow and they, they went all over the place.
so i had to pick them back up mm sorry.
bit of nerves.
be back to front now, this morning yeah?
john wants me to er sew his trousers for him.
oh.
i'm waiting on him picking up the machine.
it tickles me the way they call it portable and you can hardly lift it.
we took patricia in to, we give her a lift as far as longbridge today.
she was going back to get her coat changed.
and then she was going to the careers office.
and erm they were going to send her for an interview straight away.
i told her to be home reasonably early but she's not home yet.
well 
not far 
i know.
don't let it beat you.
i dunno mum.
only a little omelette.
yeah but it was bigger than the plate.
you had to fold it in half to get it on.
that's what i said to john i said you've got your dinner in between an omelette.
yeah.
that's right.
i thought i could call it erm a spanish omelette.
what i tried to do was one of those 
did you have 
ploughman's things.
did you have a surplus of eggs or something?
pardon me.
well erm, i knew you wouldn't eat sort of sliced ham on its own with erm vegetables.
so i knew you would eat it like that in an omelette.
mm.
i mean, if it had of been smaller.
well, i'll have a go but i may not eat all this but if it was smaller it's really tasty as well.
mm.
but you liked those erm were they countryman's or ploughman's in a packet and you just throw them into the pan and cook it for about fifteen minutes?
and that was just potatoes and eggs wasn't it?
and some cheese.
and bacon.
don't remember.
oh.
what i want to do, i want to cut the shopping down as much as i possibly can.
well i think eight pounds is a good start.
but when i go to the shops and i spend seventy pound for a week.
we have to keep making trips back to the shop because we need bread or milk or something else that we've forgotten.
so so just make little trips.
so we're just making little trips as we run out of stuff.
mm.
good idea.
and see how, if that will work out any better.
yeah.
well the good news for the environmentalists is the bike runs on unleaded.
mhm.
which is good news.
cos like that's not so expensive.
so, i shall have to take it to the petrol station in a minute.
yeah.
does, and does it need erm oil or anything like that?
no.
he showed me where the little oil level was.
so you don't have a dipstick, there's a little little ho glass hole
mhm.
where you look in.
oh right.
with a a maximum and a minimum.
mhm.
like on your dipstick.
and you just look at it.
mm.
mm.
well, just be careful when you go out.
yeah.
cos i mean it's it's not the bikers it's the other vehicle that's on the road.
alright?
not more than two minutes.
john will verify this.
do you remember john?
we came out of the shop, turned left turned left there, and then turned right.
we're going down this road and john was in front of me and just as john went past this wagon it pulled out and there was a car coming the other way.
eeeeh hit my horn.
ha i could have shouted louder.
and he stopped and luckily there was just enough room for me to slow down and just go between them.
i mean that guy just pulled out in front of me.
mm.
huge, huge lorry.
oh he he didn't see you or just didn't ?
didn't care.
oh.
he saw me alright cos like john said i had the headlights on.
yeah.
well that's it.
don't expect anybody else to obey the highway code.
yeah.
right?
did you see them two dirty great big no right turn signs?
what no right turn signs ?
you what?
i said to the bloke i said how do you get out that junction?
he said you don't, there's no right turn.
i looked up the road and there was two great big signs, no right turn.
i'd already gone that way twice.
yeah.
and turned right.
yeah.
cos it's a very awkward junction.
mm.
thank you mum.
dog's looking at you.
what do you want ricksy?
come on then.
what is it ricky?
come on then..
dog.
i don't see any i don't i don't see any bacon in there.
you're not having bacon till monday.
are you gonna buy it tomorrow?
no.
oh.
you're working, so you don't need bacon.
i'm not working monday.
well you can go and get it.
saturday sunday.
let's have some wh when?
monday.
i'll be up then.
i won't need it.
well i might get it sunday for you.
okay.
but we talk about this and we said we're cutting the shopping down, i'm not going shopping.
and the first thing you do is demand that we have butter in the house.
so we had to go and do shopping just to get your butter.
no you didn't.
you bought dog food.
you bought milk.
yeah i didn't i didn't actually need to go shopping or i didn't want to go shopping.
you did.
you needed butter.
no.
you needed butter.
there's margarine.
alright.
don't you eat it.
don't you touch that butter.
right.
i won't.
nor anybody else.
if you're saying you're buying the butter solely for me, then i just want me solely to eat it.
cos i'm not carrying the can.
i needed butter as well.
brian, you're not to eat it.
what!
not even on my toast at night?
no.
she says you had to go out and buy butter solely because i wanted it.
and i've 
oh 
i've had the bollocking cos we've had to buy butter.
well i wanted it as well so that's two against one.
and if you see her, see her eating our butter there will be a row.
cos
you've said that.
i won't have flora on the toast.
i think that's horrible.
it goes all watery.
look i'm not amused at all.
well neither am i.
na na na na na 
he said he wants butter.
yeah.
well why couldn't you put up with margarine for one day?
oh we could have.
but i didn't mind going shopping.
yeah well sh i wouldn't have minded just for today.
i i didn't mind going 
i didn't s i i didn't say 
now you say that 
i didn't say i'd got to have it today.
cos i don't.
yes you did.
no i did not.
you s your suggestion was send brian to the shops.
not mine.
now that was the 
well can you empty one of those and put it and put it in that bucket.
will you turn that tape recorder off so i can thump him.
thumping me probably won't come out on the tape.
i came out with the awful truth today to the lads.
so you dropped it.
they loved it.
so you told them you fell off your bike?
you said you're not gonna believe this.
he goes why aren't you on your bike brian?
i goes i went to the end i goes look i'll tell you all together get it over with i lost my balance and i dropped it.
alright?
there you go.
er thank you.
bye.
whoa come here, come here.
tell us all about it.
he goes what you done?
i goes ah just broken the indicator lens and a few other little bitties.
he'll eat that.
one of yours.
did you like that john?
i'm not finished yet.
there's another two plays on tomorrow.
tomorrow?
okay.
i'll sort them out.
oh you've been up to joe 's have you mum?
mm?
have you been up to joe 's?
got more in .
mm?special?
i think you were a bit.
shut up rick.
he's crying his eyes out in there.
three hundred and ninety pounds insurance.
not too bad.
i've gotta get that down a bit.
mm.
ten pound for the cover note.
you know just for
really?
three or four days.
yeah.
you know while 
while the changeover has been done.
got my registration number today.
mhm.
j 
one o two.
is it tov or?
anybody want any more chips?
one o two two.
my new number.
oh.
w y c or something.
no thanks.
no thanks mary.
w y c i think it is.
so all the ones you see t o c and
yeah they've got o in them.
or v.
yeah.
t o v or whatever.
go and lie down.
at one time the v was only for, for commercial vehicles.
mm?
you know light vans and commercials but it's used for anything now.
you know our car's d v p.
yeah.
oh and i can't eat that bread and butter now.
i'm chockered.
yeah one of the, one of the lads there alan, he goes er i'm surprised you haven't committed suicide yet after dropping your pride and joy.
well it does hurt your pride.
oh yeah.
specially when you do it in front of all the neighbours.
can't show my face again.
i'm afraid we cannot have any of this.
too .
hope it's dry tomorrow.
i won't feel so bad about going to work on it then.
if it's wet just take your time.
yeah.
keep it upright.
i can't understand how i did it you know.
well you didn't realize it was going over did you?
no.
it catches you by surprise.
i think i must have had my weight to the front of the bike, you know, coming up on the braking.
er this tap's dripping.
when does the insurance run out?
eh?
when does the insurance run out?
where does?
the insurance run out.
it's run out.
wednesday.
oh wednesday.
quick, ring up.
shouldn't be dripping.
pressure's not high.
pressure was down again this morning.
we must keep an eye on that.
yeah.
cos between one and two bar on the, on the erm boiler.
what was it on?
eh?
it means, means the system wasn't pressurized.
yeah.
but it could be very dangerous.
it's not right.
will it give a constant read out through the day?
even when it's switched off?
yeah.
it shouldn't move.
oh.
the pressure's okay mary.
cos i didn't notice it this morning.
i didn't notice it this morning.
probably be alright to use the hot water system but not the heating.
oh right.
because it's a pressurized system.
so if you have a look and you can't see that needle.
yeah.
the, the water is the water pressure's definitely changed.
well it's changed now cos it's up now.
i in the shower in the shower for one.
it's up now.
i it's weak in the shower.
er well it would have been.
there was no pressure on it.
no, it's always weak.
it's always weak in the shower now.
mm?
it's never as strong as it used to be.
it shouldn't be.
it should be okay.
and it's cold as well.
have you noticed?
yeah i was i had a shower, well, perhaps the water's been turned down a bit.
i i keep turning it up again but it it's cold every time i use it.
you know i pull it out and turn it up hot.
no i mean here.
oh there.
on the boiler.
that water.
rick.
it's only one and a half.
it should be higher than that.
i'll put it up to two and a half and it should be warm enough there.
right.
lovely.
is just?
well we'll have to watch that boiler.
yeah.
they're fatal if we, if it.
you just opened the door on the dog's mouth.
opened the fridge door and hit him right on the
yeah.
right in the mouth didn't you rick?
poor rick.
my poor baby.
aah!
come, what did she do to you?
what have i got for you?
hang on, hang on.
how much do you love me?
that much?
okay.
you're only having little bits.
you're not having any bones or anything like that.
we'll have to keep it out, and use it.
is there a time limit?
forty five minutes a side so it's erm 
i mean no.
when he wants it all done by.
yeah, saturday.
saturday?
all those tapes?
well as many as possible.
that's what i mean.
we'll have to keep it out.
somebody's put it away you see.
mother.
yeah.
oh i don't doubt it.
there's only one person that commits the mortal sins.
that's it.
yeah.
and her name is mother.
well i'm certain it begins with m.
rick.
you're not having any rice.
no.
where's all this paperwork?
that's all mine.
what you looking for?
paperwork belongs to this.
mary.
ooh!
that hurt.
mary.
i didn't want him to have that.
mary.
mary where's the paperwork belonging to that?
i dunno john.
oh that's some of it.
have a, get it all out then brian.
there's a book in there i've gotta fill in.
that's it.
that's it.
there doesn't happen to be a pen in there does there?
oh i see one.
that my erm cover note?
i've no idea.
friday the thirteenth.
what a day to buy a motorbike.
see the value of the bike came down, the value of the insurance came down cos i put the value at twelve hundred pounds.
see erm there was a ten percent discount if you had it erm under twelve hundred and fifty pounds.
yeah.
so in some ways it's cheaper insurance but in others it's erm a bit of a sting.
have you done?
come on.
oy.
see that machine there?
what does it do?
it hides behind mother so that brian can't get at it.
no.
this plates go in this way.
well i'm not allowed to use this machine so er 
knives and forks should go in that way.
right?
why that way?
there are glass plates somewhere.
have you made any tea mary?
no.
no.
do you want some tea?
i want to get into the habit of finishing and getting the dishwasher on and ge cleaning the kitchen completely.
i told him to ring i told him ring apex up in case they were recruiting.
because there are jobs up on the notice board.
but he said apex didn't know anything about it at the moment.
so i mean, if apex don't know anything about it i don't know why they don't .
now you know i don't get on with plastic.
oh i got it first time.
i got it first time.
oh god.
tell her there will be half a pie for her tea otherwise she don't get none.
i mean this is ridiculous.
yeah.
turn that on for me will you?
just 
it's making work for everybody.
and one thing we don't want is extra work.
i mean if we get finished now and clean the ki cooker and and clean everything and say right, we're out of the kitchen then, nothing more tonight.
that's it.
if they want something they can get it themselves.
yeah.
yeah but tell them to clean up after them.
mm.
don't leave it for you all the time.
yeah.
lynn doesn't cook any meals for any of them.
no.
well i mean that's different to the way we live though isn't it?
mm.?
mm?
packet of instant mash.
tin of peas and a tin of spam.
mm, could you imagine me 
lovely.
and throws it all in puts it all on the plate cold and puts it in the microwave.
no wonder he sits in the chair and does nothing.
because they do it at home.
eat that food now.
i've had enough of you.
you're being perfectly silly.
erm, i can't think what you do tomorrow when you go with steve .
i mean that will be three hours continuous.
yeah.
i remind me in the morning.
yeah.
i'll stick a note on the thing.
yeah.
eh?
you forget about it 
yeah.
don't put it away then mary.
pardon?
don't put it away, you'll have to leave it out for the week.
seventeenth tomorrow isn't it mary?
mm?
seventeenth tomorrow?
yeah.
i'll have to, i shan't 
yeah.
mm.
i've put a list up erm for the things that i want for my birthday.
for the things that i would like for my birthday.
are you interested?
yeah.
john, how much do i owe you for the erm the lens?
phaw one twenty five.
can i this?
yeah.
yeah so i'll keep it in the garage.
keep it in your pocket.
right.
it's no good in the garage.
oh oh.
there you go.
i'm reduced to pennies again.
okay.
well i've got no change.
that's alright.
right, keep that in me pocket.
?
alright, yeah.
are you having some cake?
er no thanks.
no cake
i i'll have some tonight.
no yogurt.
right.
don't bank on it.
new kitchen rules.
new kitchen rules.
new kitchen rules mum.
yes, yes.
come on then.
after supper.
yet again.
after supper.
after supper and it's mum 
dishwasher 
that cleans the kitchen.
mum is staying out of the kitchen.
oh yes!
right?
so, if you want anything make it yourself.
i do anyway.
mm?
i do anyway.
supper.
mhm.
well you can sit there and i'll read this list out to you.
and i will cringe.
for mummy's birthday mummy would like one a gold locket with a strong chain.
two, an eternity ring.
three, a hundred pounds worth of premium bonds.
four 
an epilator.
do you know what one of them is?
not an escalator?
oh, for taking the hairs off your legs?
that's it.
not a razor.
i've got a razor upstairs.
number five, a weekend away at a health farm.
oh forget it, you can scrub that out straight away.
number six a large bright dried flower arrangement.
number seven, a large colourful brooch.
not gold.
number eight, fountain pen.
not a cartridge pen and not a set.
just a fountain pen on its own.
number nine is gold earrings.
stud type not drop type, studs.
number ten's perfumes talcs and books.
number eleven is an ornament from the jewellers.
number twelve, nightdress and negligee set.
number thirteen, no chocolates please.
and that's it.
okay.
pin that up on the board.
yeah.
and what you will have to do, you will have to tell each other what you would like to buy or what you would think of.
because, if you scrub them off then i'll know that you're gonna buy them.
cross off the health farm.
you can buy me er the locket, the eternity ring, the premium bonds and the weekend away at the health farm.
you'd be lucky to get one.
good.
i think you're getting as bad as me.
oh i got it from you.
coming out with your list of what you want for your birthdays.
i thought well i'll try it.
where's the nearest loan company?
mm?
where's the nearest loan company?
brian.
me.
i know.
so 
when are you gonna cross my palm with silver?
she 
i forgot about that.
yeah.
when are you going to 
that will wipe the smile off your face.
i do you want me to get it tomorrow for you?
mm.
cos i can call in at the bank and get it to 
no, don't get it till i want it to buy her present.
erm i only owe eighty pounds don't i?
cos of the twenty that i borrowed
mm.
at the start of the month.
mm.
yeah .
stupid dog.
he ignored that.
good boy.
he didn't even look .
i went to the doctors today.
oh yes?
yeah.
he said don't buy any more new clothes.
he said what?
don't buy any more new clothes.
she said i was
a hypochondriac?
terribly overweight.
what made her say that i wonder.
and she would like me to go to the well women's clinic every wednesday it's run.
and she would like me to go, book in for an appointment.
and she would discuss my diet amongst other things.
oh dear.
mhm.
which diet?
your chocolate diet?
your crisp diet or your food diet?
hm!
er
or the the meals in between diet.
if if i'm on a diet you lot will be on diets. on diets 
we know all about it.
but there will be no more cake.
we know.
i think i'm gonna have to change us all to flora.
just buy me butter.
i get no help and encouragement do i?
i shan't encourage you to eat my butter.
hey you, i buttered that bread for you and you didn't eat it.
i can't mum, i'm full.
nice cup of tea.
these people that have to listen to these tapes you know, they must get terribly bored mustn't they?
i dunno.
i suppose it can be quite entertaining.
yeah i should think so, yeah.
mm?
i suppose it can be quite entertaining sometimes.
mm.
wait till trish gets in.
then it will liven up.
it's sure to.
er i i suppose it's to see how people use the english language.
what words we use, what words aren't used.
what slang we use.
we use all the words of the english language don't we?
we use the yellow ones, the blue ones, the black ones.
i wonder how they'd get on with somebody with foreign?
george is, george is gonna get me some lights for on here, did you know?
who?
george.
he's gonna get me glass?
no, lights.
oh lights.
george ?
yeah.
mm.
he makes them.
well lynwood do them.
oh?
so the next time he goes he's gonna get some for me.
oh does george work for the lynwood?
what do you th what do you think 
he does he does ma a lot of manufacture for lynwoods.
oh.
what do you think of having in here artexed or airtexed or whatever it's called, artex.
yeah, good idea.
but we're not spending any money.
yeah.
i think jean said, well she watched the others do it.
they only did like erm a square foot every time.
erm you have to do, put it on and then design it.
and then move over to the next square.
put it on, design it she said because it dries very quickly.
mm.
it's only like a plaster of paris stuff isn't it?
it does go off quick.
mm that's right.
quick.
she said it's er about ten pound a tub but i don't know how far a tub would go?
not very far.
mm.
and then she said there was stuff called textured paint that has, it's like paint with lumps in it.
i think it's just lumpy paint gone wrong and then and they sell it.
but then she said you get erm you put it on and you get a brush and er not a brush, a roller.
and the roller has a design, a line on it.
different designs.
that's right yeah.
and then you just roll it on.
mm.
yeah.
mm.
said debbie's used that in her house.
it could definitely do with something.
but we'll leave it for now.
mm.
when, when he was in i saw he i saw mark look at that corner.
mm.
and he copped off.
that one there?
yeah.
it's skew-wiff.
what does it come out does it?
goes in.
ah so i see, yes.
goes in about an inch.
mm.
mm.
he was saying to me it was very difficult to do.
well i can't understand why.
i mean really what he should have done if it, if it was that difficult he should have gone back another half a brick and the j bricked it up all the way
mm.
level, instead of putting bits and pieces in.
surely 
yeah.
he could have half bricked it all the way up?
mm.
instead of saying how difficult it was putting bits and pieces in.
i would have thought that's what i would have done.
you know, just come straight up with a row of bricks.
logical thing to do.
yeah.
that's what i thought.
i mean it didn't have to be spot on.
as long as it came back out to where it is now.
ah.
good boy.
the dog was lying there last night and patricia said something to him, i don't know what she said to him but the look on his face.
you could tell it really upset him, whatever she said to him.
yeah.
she she wouldn't tell us what she'd said to him either, so it must have been bad.
but did you fart?
he probably farted.
oh yeah well.
rick.
you cheeky.
good boy boys.
cos we're talking about you.
go to sleep now.
good boy.
close your eyes.
that's it.
close your eyes and go to sleep.
go on go on.
go on.
you soft animal.
he won't close his eyes in case you do something to him.
yeah.
in case he see in case he misses something.
what are you going out now?
yeah.
i was gonna wash the car.
i'll do it tomorrow.
i've never 
hey mum 
seen it so dirty.
just think this time next week you'll have me new car for me.
yeah it's my birthday present.
eh?
top of me list.
it's not on it's not on the list.
you're not having it.
.
number one a 
forget it.
you're too late now, you've made the list.
oh!
you are slow.
mm.
do do do do 
how many tapes do they expect you to fill up john?
i don't know.
as many as are full up.
whether it be one, two ten fifteen, it doesn't matter.
and what why do you have to fill in the form?
erm every time you use a tape you fill in this is tape side b tape one side b tape two side a tape two side b.
oh.
so we're still on side one?
no we're on one side b.
we've done side a.
is it full?
yeah.
when, what was the date we started recording on the tape?
was it saturday?
what date was last saturday?
dunno john.
fourteen fifte fourteenth?
that bloke didn't come on saturday, he come on friday didn't he?
no, well 
what, why have you put down that you have your regional accent and i have an irish accent?
i haven't.
well, you can't tell that i'm irish but i can tell you're irish.
oh.
how can you do that?
i i .
you're you're a frigging idiot you are.
how do you know that people can't tell you're irish?
nobody can.
nobody can tell that i'm irish.
only when i swear.
and you know i don't swear very often.
no.
erm
kids anyway.
but that could change when patricia comes in.
and what does erm why does brian and patricia not have a regional accent?
well i don't think they have.
think a brummie accent.
they haven't got a brummie accent, no.
no.
and th th they haven't got a twang as far as i know anyway so
mm.
i'm only putting the truth down as i see it.
yeah.
you know?
i mean i could be wrong.
i can only put down what i know to be the truth as far as i can tell.
mhm.
there doesn't seem to be a regional accent in this area does there?
if you start going further towards worcester, worcestershire.
into worcester 
the black country.
that area.
that that area.
well, into hailsowen 
wales.
mhm.
places like that, then you would get an accent.
i suppose it's too much of a mixture up here isn't it?
mhm.
but i don't look at birmingham people 
who?
the girl next door.
when brian ?
thought he'd be but he wasn't. kids .
out.
you'd better eat that food.
i've seen you know the, the coat she brought home first of all?
i've seen a lot of people up town wearing that coat, but they were all much older.
i would have said they were in their forties.
yeah.
you know, mutton dressed as lamb.
yeah.
wearing that type of coat.
but 
yeah.
that one that she brought home does look decent.
right i'll move the car then, out of his way.
well switch your tape off.
oh you've been to see him?
yeah.
who's that?
and er he he suddenly looked up and went it's brian!
like this and the and the pliers dropped out of his hand.
ah!
like this he was.
it was really funny.
and did janet come out?
janet came out and went hello, ooh.
got in her car and drove off.
off to the chinese.
the chinese.
and er
she hasn't changed.
and greg, greg goes oh let me sit on it!
oh!
so, greg was impressed.
what car's he got?
a chevette.
a chevette.
what year?
t, same as mine.
how much did he pay for his?
four fifty.
no.
no it was three seven five.
three seven five he paid for it.
yeah.
i thought janet's own car, i thought they gave it to greg's brother?
the escort?
they did.
no, it wasn't an escort he had out there the other day was it?
that old beat up thing.
that was several years ago.
that was er an ital he had out there.
oh.
and what's and janet driving now?
sierra.
sierra.
yeah.
sierra.
and jan's got a a new mini.
oh.
h reg mini.
mm.
which
she must be doing well now.
which er which emma's allowed to drive.
oh right, yes.
but not greg?
but er greg's got his own car.
is she still in dixons?
think so.
mm.
oh she work in a dixons?
mm.
what full time?
yeah.
yeah, the estate agents i think.
oh the estate agents.
yeah she she left school and went straight into dixons.
oh i see.
and janet wasn't impressed at all.
no.
janet had high hopes for .
yeah.
but er i think 
you can do well in that job though.
you can be er kidnapped and all sorts.
eh?
you can do well in that job.
you can be kidnapped and all sorts.
yeah.
and then we could always send brian out to be the motorbike dispatch rider couldn't we?
yeah, so i mean i haven't really done that where, where did i ride to?
where else did you go?
i went down to greg's and i went round to rob's to see how his interview went.
and what was his interview for?
for rover.
oh.
he's coming to rover this year.
robert .
he's just finished, well he's taking his exams in twelve weeks.
mm.
a levels are in twelve weeks time.
and will he just go in as an apprentice the same as yourself?
he will go in the same as myself.
but he'll be a year behind you?
he'll be a year behind me, and he'll be on the same money as me.
oh right.
because he's done his a levels, oh.
so he doesn't lose out there.
his dad is also a manager down at erm cowley i think .
mm.
his dad does a lot of travelling.
and erm 
mm it must be at cowley cos connolly's virtually closed now.
yeah.
and er
what department's he in?
i've no idea.
dunno.
i know he's got a it's er it's one of the craft sections cos he's got craft apprentices under him.
oh.
and how, how did his interview go?
a lot of them have you know.
he hasn't had it yet.
he's had the test.
mm.
but he's got the interview next week he thinks.
oh yeah is that did you tell him about the test?
no, he'd already had it.
oh.
because er it come as a bit of a shock to you didn't it?
er 
yeah.
he he goes i'd no idea it was so hard.
he said it was so difficult.
think it was a real shock for him.
yeah.
and erm we er i gave him a few tips on what to revise on
yeah.
for the interview.
you know the cos they 
always ask you the maths rules.
th they will pick on something 
that you're good at.
you know.
and say if you do have a bit of knowledge on it.
no i just told him to revise the er the cycle of the engine.
oh.
and who erm
suck squeeze bang blow.
who else did you go and see?
then i went down to see andy.
you know the one with the ginger hair?
ah yeah.
and he come out with the same expression on his face.
oh yeah.
er!
oh motorbike!
yeah.
he goes i don't believe it.
he goes i now hate you.
he hasn't been round for a while, andy, has he?
no well, you see andy's got himself a
a girl?
a an older woman.
well older she 
is that the one that rung patricia?
she's a year older.
no.
which one was that?
simon.
oh.
he's alright.
mm.
i think, is in the er garage?
think so yeah.
and then i, then i popped down to see james.
oh james has a bike doesn't he?
no, that's simon.
that's simon well, he's got rid of it.
he's got a mini now.
a mini.
and james like your bike then?
he went whoa!
big!
oh right.
so you've done the rounds tonight then brian?
i've done the rounds tonight, yeah.
have you much petrol left?
loads.
loads.
i filled it i put six pound on, put six pounds in on friday and i've got loads left.
and i've been all round the place.
you'll have to go round 
did you go for your gauge then?
no.
no.
you'll have to go round visit your aunt bridie.
er 
put her in an early grave?
yeah.
oh i couldn't do that to her.
tell her you've come to take her to the ol the pensioners' club on her, on your bike.
yeah.
come on, jump on.
she might get on it as well.
i've been ever so tired.
yeah.
i tell you what did wake me up though john.
coming down the er the old church highway towards the house from town er the white arrows in the road
you've gotta keep off them.
i found that out.
you what?
you know the white arrows in the road?
the white the white lines 
mhm.
and manhole covers.
you've gotta find out where they are.
what about them?
yeah.
i've gotta memorize where they are from now on.
why?
the white lines and the arrows in the middle of the lane.
why?
they make you change your line.
because i went over it
mm and skidded?
doing about sixty and i felt a twitch in the wheel and i thought shit!
i'm not going over one of them again.
mm.
well you have to sometimes.
you'll get used to it and it doesn't affect you 
i suppose it a bit?
after a bit.
but you've got to watch them when they're, when you're in the wet.
i was i was, i was slightly banked at the time.
mm.
just very slightly.
you w if your d wheel does move it won't move far.
you get used to that, the wheel moving over a bit.
i suppose er it's a trick not to over correct?
it will stop itself.
it will, it just might slide a bit but it will stop sliding when it comes off it.
yeah.
cos by the time you you've felt it you've passed it maybe?
well you you've travelled another hundred yards.
yeah.
i er i suppose you have to be very careful er and find out what is on the road?
but like tomorrow when i go to work
keep away from the kerbs.
that's the most important thing.
yeah.
i ride in the middle of the lane.
tomorrow when i go to work on it, i'm going through er i'm not gonna go through bowgreen i don't wanna go that way.
go that way .
well you can go straight up to longridge lane.
i'll go straight through longridge lane.
that way.
yeah.
there's a lot, there's 
up to gr gravelly corner 
yeah it's up 
are you going over to droitwich on it or will you go in your car?
i'll go to droitwich on it, yeah.
mm.
and then coming back here to get changed or what?
i've i've booked the whole morning off.
well i i p i personally think 
when you gotta go droitwich?
you would you would need 
tomorrow morning.
oh tomorrow.
i personally think you would need 
well the weather forecast is dry anyway.
more experience dri riding on the bike as it is, without erm having your rucksack and things on.
get used to carrying it.
mm?
get used to carrying it.
it it didn't bother me at all.
i'm not kidding you, it did i didn't feel it.
i could feel a slight pressure on me shoulders, but it didn't restrict my movements in any way.
when?
when i was c coming back with the boots in them.
in it.
on saturday.
mm.
well, just be very careful.
and don't get over cocky.
and keep away from big lorries.
yes mum.
i fully intend to keep away from them anyway.
i mean a bit of fear is a good thing.
erm, i'm still scared every time i pull away.
you know,ji little jitterbugs.
yeah.
and i went up iver road as well.
on a bike?
o o on the way back from andrew's, yeah.
i always found that awkward at the top.
yeah.
specially if there was cars on the hill and i had to pull up behind them.
cos you you run out of you know, what things to do.
cos you've gotta have one foot on the ground and you've gotta have one o ha foot, one on the brake
yeah.
one on the clutch, one on the throttle
yeah.
and the other one on, and your gear change.
you're one missing.
yeah .
yeah you 
i'd just get off and push it .
on iver road?
whoa!
down he goes.
but luckily there was only a c only one car stopped at the top.
so i just stopped dead and did a hill start.
stopped at the top and did another hill start.
plymouth road's another awkward one.
the first, the first down bit when you're going down plymouth road.
oh yeah, i bet.
when you come to the right, the bend.
cos it's actually quite s , quite sharp bend.
and it gets wet down there as well.
it gets a bit slippy on there.
and there's manhole covers as you come out the bend.
and don't go don't go speeding brian.
you don't have the same control over a bike when you're speeding.
you don't have the same control over a car 
it 
or a bike when you're speeding.
it feels better, going slow.
cos it's more comfortable.
yeah.
your 's 
yeah.
better.
when i say un slow, under fifty.
you know when you, when you think that police rider 
go at a speed you can enjoy it.
mm?
go at a speed that you can enjoy riding it at.
yeah.
that's it.
i mean the police riders look as if they're enjoying it.
and and where people can recognize me.
mm?
where people can recognize me.
that's it.
hey look there's bri.
look at him go.
brrr 
and it will last you longer, you know?
yeah.
your bike, the engine, the oil.
you reduce it's life.
it's ever so good at the er cruising though.
it's really nice.
it should cruise along at about fifty at, you know, quarter throttle.
fifty it does about er three and a half, four thousand r p m.
yeah.
it's about right for a four hundred.
mine would be doing about five grand at that.
four and a half, five.
mm.
mine went up with, you know let's face it if i was doing sixty mile an hour it would be doing just over six grand.
yeah.
anything over that, you know mine is going up towards the seven into the red.
the red on that's about ten.
yeah.
and mine did and mine's only a, mine was only a sm you know one eight five .
yeah.
i haven't had it above er above about eight grand i think.
that was when i wound it up on a carriageway.
don't, just keep your revs down.
hello rick.
you poor tired little boy.
cos erm greg came down the other night.
did i tell you?
when you were in wales?
he came 
no.
he came down.
to sh show me his car.
oh.
how long has he had his car?
er he had a he had a polonaise 
oh right.
before that.
ooh!
i mean that's the pits.
bet he, he didn't wanna show that to anybody.
no.
he didn't that.
but er and he got this little chevette.
apparently he blew the polonaise up.
everybody does, don't they?
yeah.
er he's bought his little chevette and er it's a nice little car.
mm.
bit noisy but it's alright.
is it yellow or green?
red.
oh a red one!
oh yeah.
quite decent.
he loves it.
he's got all these plans for it.
bore it out to a fourteen eighty and
load of rubbish.
right.
thank you brian.
and make it last about six months.
or six thousand miles 
do you want one?
whichever comes first.
no.
no.
just give me a fiver.
haven't got a fiver.
i'll go and er bring me bike in.
get me stuff ready for tomorrow.
hello.
and, do you want a wee?
rick.
do you want a wee?
tell me what you want?
come here.
do you want a wee wee?
don't you cheek 
don't eat the microphone rick.
you cheeky .
t that's it, walk all over me.
you cheek 
the gloves are good.
yeah?
gloves are, gloves are really good.
they, not as like warm as yours but er they're certainly nice and warm.
yeah.
you need good gloves
yeah.
cos see once your hands get cold you've gotta give up.
and now, now i'm wearing the scarf the er the cold doesn't go down.
my er my adam's apple gets cold but that's about it.
do you want me to put the sound on?
yeah.
i haven't seen him yet.
oh you haven't seen him.
but she said to me, she goes er last friday night she was ten pounds down.
yeah?
and she's been working there eight years.
yeah.
so it does happen.
oh yeah it happens, yeah.
it's very hard to balance a till.
yeah.
she says you get new ten pound notes, they stick together and you count them as one.
she says that is the most common one.
yeah.
it could have been there all the time.
yeah.
and you missed it you see?
and as for being six pound up, she says i must have short-changed someone .
yeah.
come on, you're losing your touch now.
come on, give me a kiss.
go on.
quick, quick quick quick.
good boy 
go on.
get it rick.
go on.
hey!
kiss.
and me.
give me one.
give me a kiss.
kiss.
give me a kiss.
give me a kiss.
if you don't kiss, kiss 
rick rick rick rick hey.
oh thanks rick.
you put it on there?
yeah.
well i've left you three tapes out to take with you.
when?
now.
oh this morning?
yeah.
i mean it's a good opportunity.
you might as well get it used up.
see it's having a pocket 
what are you looking for?
it's having a pocket to put it in to.
does it have a clip on the back?
yeah.
it can clip on to your trousers.
yeah.
everybody?
where is everybody?
oh we're first by the look of it.
oh dear.
well almost first anyway.
haven't you?
oh mary was late up.
there was a right panic in our house.
how come?
well i, i got up late and brian was in the bathroom.
had to rush downstairs, do my breakfast.
had some weetabix quick and a cup of tea.
rush rushed into the bathroom.
went in there and went and got dressed so mary was up then so when i got back downstairs the er breakfast, my breakfast was on the table.
again.
so all in all, it's quite exciting.
you all looking forward to this?
yeah.
yes i am.
i said to sue i said i can't ring and tell him i ain't going i says, i'll upset him too much.
i think i'd have if you was to say that.
feelings.
i would have been upset.
i would, i'd have gone to .
i thought i'm, i'm going this morning.
did you go yesterday?
no.
no .
didn't have time really.
no, we'll leave this on.
i thought we'd be too bollocksed by the time we get up there anyway.
er yeah.
you don't john?
yeah, should have somewhere.
in case it's er again.
otherwise we folding things up.
do you know them three mirrors i had?
i had three mirrors, i can't find the bleeding things.
can't you?
no.
i don't know what i've done with them.
i've got i've got seven i think balls.
but i've got all seven good ones.
but, it looks grotty, it is a good one.
yeah.
have i got everything?
yeah.
no, yesterday me flaming back was killing me.
really?
and i thought oh,.
niggling this morning but i daresay walking round here might do it 
it will get rid of it yeah.
i took some yesterday, i was and i took some last night before i went to bed and i took two this morning.
cos my hips were killing me.
you what?
my hips were killing me, you know?
well i think that's cos i lie on me right in bed.
i have to t i go and lie on me left but if i lie 
yeah.
on my right side it's er 
yeah.
you've gotta knife in your side.
yeah.
i, mind you i today.
ooh.
oh you ca i'll let you.
if we ever get up this hill.
morning.
morning.
morning.
yeah.
she was the one that was giving a bollocking to .
yeah.
he's conscientious anyway isn't he?
he's doing his best.
oh yeah.
don't look up.
phew oh dear.
nearly there.
i find if i don't look up it's not so bad.
you ought to be able to drive up here didn't you?
i really wouldn't mind selling all my camera gear.
su and er it's su such a waste.
i never use it.
it is isn't it?
you, you've had no pleasure really out of it.
no.
i mean if i sold it cheap.
eh?
even if i only sold it, you know for a couple of hundred pounds.
well you could buy yourself some golf stuff for a hundred couldn't you?
or 
well it's worth more than a hundred.
well
i couldn't sell it 
you c you could maybe i dunno 
that cheap.
what do you want rick?
if you're not gonna help, clear off.
rick being the dog.
you wanna keep that don't you?
oh yeah that, that will be handy.
yeah.
and the there's your writing set as well.
yeah.
i'll i'll keep the writing set.
i think yeah.
i mean that's lovely.
take that downstairs.
you can write to mark.
then you've got yours and i've got mine then.
yeah.
right yeah.
i myself.
okay.
well it i always think it's terrible you know, when people buy you things and you don't use them.
these windows aren't that dirty mary.
aren't they?
they're not that dirty, it isn't long since i cleaned these you know.
i'm only doing this as a big favour.
eh.
i'm gonna tell norman i got five thousand for the car.
so don't, don't say nothing.
no.
he'll be as sick as a pig.
what about these glasses?
whose are they?
mine?
.
ours.
your oh ours?
are they the ones that er
davina brought them.
is that the one that's, one's broken?
one's broken, yeah.
it's got a crack in it.
oh.
well get rid of it then.
mm.
i think we've got enough haven't we?
yeah.
yeah sell it.
he's not, he's not doing these sills like he said he would.
like i asked him to.
who isn't?
the, the window cleaner.
oh no.
that's a monstrosity isn't it?
aha.
we'll keep that one.
wh who bought us that?
alice and marie .
yeah.
and that he he knows that that flat's let.
er
what?
let to 
oh.
the brothers from work.
oh yeah.
oh that's expensive though, isn't it?
mm.
it's a cake plate?
yeah.
yeah.
that was a few pounds.
it matches that bowl downstairs.
yes i know.
yeah.
mm.
we've, i mean we've lost a hundred pound on the car.
why?
cos it er the tax er there's twelve month's tax on it.
oh well.
that's neither here nor there.
oh no and it's gone now.
i mean you, the other one's gonna be taxed for
twelve months, yeah.
twelve months so it's as long as it's broad john.
i suppose i suppose we could get rid of the erm all these pay slips now couldn't we?
yeah.
i think so.
i'll go and get er a black bag for rubbish.
oh my god!
hey well why don't you sell them at the car boot sale?
well i mean they're only part sets.
they aren't actually worth a lot of money.
are they?
no but i mean you'd gi maybe give somebody a bit of pleasure sorting them out.
yeah.
and write on it er car boot sale.
we're gonna burn all these?
this is rubbish.
these want burning don't they?
do they?
yeah.
i'll burn them.
wh why do they want burning?
well i don't like things like this flying around.
the old pay slips and things.
so i i'll burn them.
i'll burn all this.
where will we burn them?
i'll burn them in the garden.
on the top patio.
have a little fire going.
i wouldn't bother so much john.
yeah, i i would.
that rubbish?
rubbish.
that's it.
that's the rubbish on the .
no, these are all foreign coins.
you can't get rid of these.
will they go to the boot sale?
no.
no i'll keep them.
what's that?
rubbish.
well what's the difference between throwing this one out and throwing them out and burning them?
we'll keep the coins.
what did you say?
i'll keep the coins.
unfortunately 
tell peter so.
yeah yeah, well he's gone so don't worry about that .
er and erm yeah he's gone too so.
why worry about it.
erm what er what are our contacts like at a technical level at ?
okay.
how often do we get a technical visit in there?
er well it's actually at the technical side is, i i've seen before christmas.
about the new phoenix machine that er we haven't got a er opportunity for business on anywhere.
i've tried and they're not interested.
what s what sort of bearing was it?
it's a small miniature nine millimetre and fourte thirteen millimetre one.
er a single one and a flanged on as a a pair a matched pair.
and i sent off details with the 
a flanged a straight a straight flange?
one straight bearing.
yeah.
one plain bearing and one flanged bearing.
as a pair.
what erm
it's reference.
sent it all to viv with all the details, broke all the reference 
what volumes?
two thousand a year.
how how.
two thousand on one and a thousand on the other.
has he re-inquired on japan?
no.
can i?
yes of course you can.
of course cos if 
particularly pointed out the flanged bearing and said, you know that does the flanged bearings don't you?
i said, no i didn't.
he said, they do.
they do flanged miniature bearings and it is possible therefore that
mm.
somebody somewhere will know.
so what i suggest you do is to give erm jerry a ring.
yeah okay.
cos they won't need to be to p four limits.
well give jerry a ring and see if there's anything to offer yeah yeah.
yeah.
yeah yeah.
yeah.
fine yeah.
yeah.
so yeah okay i will do yeah.
i'll send .
ask for his comments i'll use k john cos he's the machine tool man.
so i'll use him as my contact.
it's best to keep .
yeah okay.
oh and i've spoken to tony meeting.
i'm arranging to go and see him, it'll be into next month now when
right.
i've had me
good.
time off and yeah.
yeah.
right okay.
so could could you do something on that, worries me.
i will see what i can find out.
yeah i'm i'm i'm .
i'm stuck to be honest.
i quoted forty per cent on those screw support sizes last friday.
yeah?
i faxed him over on his on saturday morning.
so we'll see what happens.
erm but er what i've just put here is forty per cent margin until price is sorted.
we need to 
okay.
do this visit with roy and get this price list sorted.
waiting his reply.
right okay.
er
you you might you might er er 
cos i did have a word with steve on friday and said have you seen jerry and and has he mentioned this
yeah.
and and steve said, no i hadn't heard of it actually.
i said, well look, we intend to fax through to roy saying, yes we want to do business with you.
yeah?
yeah.
and erm you know, we're waiting for him to come back and say, yeah we need to talk.
jerry so he said he hadn't seen but he's not necessarily going to.
do you do you have direct contract with jerry ?
mm.
why don't you give him a ring?
yeah fair enough.
and and say erm
yeah.
you know i'm just off likely to be off for for next week and like to get 
right.
something fixed before i go.
yeah okay.
right and then he probably ring roy and yeah 
you know, use that as an excuse.
yeah.
fine okay.
right okay i think that's it then,er okay
right.
so one's really the one where i need to involve you.
basically i if you can.
yeah.
the rest i'll let you know 
i hear.
erm i i'm also i also quite 
ooh 
would like to know what's going on with and .
whether actually has any er control over what 's doing in the marketplace.
okay yeah yeah.
i know it was andy last time and he's a guy so yeah, i'll find out.
well you find out i might be able to find out to .
well yeah okay.
erm that was a point,, i er spindle bearings and i want to take the business off 'em.
now with it being , we're not gonna look at a high margin straight away cos i know that's a waste of time.
er but we can make a reasonable margin including spacers.
it's a set of three bearings with a pair of spacers.
so you have two bearings in tandem, a pair of spacers and a third bearing.
and it's their normal machine centre range.
they use like about forty pairs a month.
yeah.
erm sell for about eighty seven pound including spacers so i was gonna go in at about eighty three, eighty four but it's the new pricing company so i've got to ask your permission haven't i?
. it's a new product, i'm gonna make reasonable it's about thirty five per cent margin 
it's a new product?
no it's it's a new size for us to supply.
we've never b 
well
historically with what's happened is, the design from japan was taken under licence
yeah.
and they were based around and and designs.
yeah.
now on the five fifty series for example, it's an complete cartridge spindle on the twelve thousand revs, yeah?
and we get you know so anthony would get that business.
because complete spindles come under the precision range of products .
yeah.
this is something i was trying to get clarified but i don't care really as long as somebody gets it.
erm but what happened then is er tended to get the main bearing supply for the normal spindles that manufactured and built.
mm.
and that was a set of three angular contact ball bearings, and then a n n thirty double row roller at the rear.
er we're now doing this partnership which was what today was about, about the new generation spindle.
yeah.
erm so that's going great, i think that's really going well so the new design, i think we're well in on.
erm the old on that you know, took me two years to get the bearings approved and er you know but then having to wait a year and a half cos had a year and a half's worth of orders on 'em and promised to hold the price for three years is that's what it took for them to use them up, er has run out, new orders have been put on but i've got the chance of taking the business.
er but erm obviously with the thing again, i wanted er obviously 
what was the 
you don't to go to 'em for and they say, well you just took the bloody off me, i want a cut in me .
yeah.
this is this is 
you know i don't want to be seen to be
this is clearly er erm a situation where erm we must not knowingly take business which we have not enjoyed before at a price below 
no at a price below the existing suppliers ninety four prices.
now when erm you say are supplying at the moment.
mhm.
yeah.
the problem is dave , the buyer at , is worse than ken .
he's a real dipstick.
yeah?
w his last comment.
wh what happened is, richard was the team section leader, dave historically looks after the bearings sales.
but he's such a dork i'm taking him off it.
and they're letting him keep linear.
cos linear is just consignment stock and you know job there.
sally the lass who's taken over the buying for precision bearings, is a great lass got on great with her, and richard.
and they want to come and see the factory, they want to go to yeah, it fell down cos richard was too busy at the end of last year, fine get that sorted and i sally was dropped in the crap by right at the end of last year, came on five sets of bearings, i could've done 'em in two weeks.
i said i'll get you in two weeks, wallop wallop it's alright,to do it, they have 'em back in a month.
we're alright you know, they only way you'll get the business, he's like that, he talks like that, is if you can you know offer a big price saving.
that i'm afraid that's one thing you can't do
alright.
even if it means that this year yeah yeah.
er 
from my own point of view i want the business but bearing in mind what's happening i'm asking you before i do anything.
erm i
should i let the dust settle first?
yes.
so i'll leave it.
e you either either leave it or 
if i quote three or four quid underneath, he'll consider it and we may get an order in a few months time when the schedule runs out.
do you want me just to leave it?
i think what you could sensibly say, to them, is, look, i gather you've had supply problems with 
yeah.
yeah.
cos i was there when it happened.
and s n a look you won't have supply problems with us.
mhm.
and you could say, look what we've done with .
yeah 
competitors of yours.
yeah.
competitors of yours, wanted bearings in a week, we got 'em bearings in a
the problem the problem is that's happened with the design people.
yeah?
yeah.
i have been given roy , the dra the engineering the the senior designer, dennis er kev who's our 
mm mm.
he was a development manager, i've been giving 'em earache for the last year and a half, saying, you are falling behind man.
we're up and running with , we've got the test rig going, new spindle bearings up, we're pushing it.
yeah?
yeah.
and it's taken that long for dave to get his arse in gear and he's a so slow.
he's he's he's been reluctant to do anything because he's had other things to do.
right.
but malcolm in in the end got him to do something .
who who who are the who's the boss of these erm wankish buyers?
richard was the team leader, he's the guy for me to work on .
i know i could do it 
who's his boss?
who's his boss?
well peter but er
who's peter .
peter 's the group er materials manager.
but i wouldn't.
he's not one that you can lean on.
er to wh actually leave it with me because richard 's the guy.
and sally is taking over from david, it's a handover period.
right.
because sally's not she doesn't understand one end of a bearing from another.
right.
she used to do a bit of part time buying from the accounts department.
yeah yeah.
she's come down now to take over buying and she thinks dave's a wanker.
a prat.
yeah?
right.
and i can get richard and and sally interested 
right.
but david's sat there at the minute in the background.
right.
now yes wait 
what i need to do is get him out the way.
till he's out of the way,
right.
and suggest to your sally
yeah.
that you on on one of your visits it would be a very good idea if you sat down with her and the engineering pal
yeah, and roy.
yes?
yeah.
and you have a c not not necessarily with not necessarily with the boss 
no no mm.
yeah.
but just the the the buyer
mm.
and the engineer.
right.
and s and begin to drive them with a consolidated plan.
look wh you're in this business for a long time, things take an awful long time to happen in this world
mm.
mm.
you know that, i know that.
so we've got to get our plans sorted out.
i want to help you do that.
no sally's new at the job, we've been working at this for for on on the technical front for some time, now let's just sit down and and work out what we're gonna do.
is that alright?
yeah.
yeah, so try and bring those two together
mm.
because if if you do that, and it begins to erm o occur to her and if she's fairly bright
mm she doesn't seem daft yeah.
she's not clever cos she's bearings ,
erm it it it no 
she doesn't seem engineering clever.
no.
but she's not daft.
no but but you're gonna help them.
yeah yeah.
you're going to your object in life is to help her do the job better.
right.
and explain to her.
and by sitting down and having a technical and commercial conversation together
mm.
you can sort of chair that that 
mm.
meeting and help her to understand
how much we're helping them through this .
and appreciate how much else we can do.
and and okay if we're a pound or two different.
we're forty minutes up the road.
yeah.
yeah.
if we can't e e i've had a couple of months of stock on the shelf for 'em.
yeah.
in fact i must admit, i hinted to dave if if linear will do consignment stock for , why shouldn't we if we're only forty minutes away.
but i mean that's the last thing i wanna do but
yeah.
but even then we could have consignment stock here in effect cos they're only forty minutes away, we could throw 'em in the back of the car and have 'em delivered.
well that's what we've got we've got consignment stock here, it's on our premises 
yeah.
so they don't have the problem of of of of of 
yeah 
the hassle of stocking it and so on.
yeah.
so you know 
i've just got this david thing and and the thing in the background.
i didn't want to tread on toes.
well well you've got a lovely you've got a lovely opportun 
you've got a lovely opportunity there to sell the non-price benefits.
yeah.
just have a try and h try and set up a c a a a meeting with this sally and your engineering winger 
yeah okay.
and don't talk price at all.
no.
and than at a later stage go bock and have a go at sally and and remind her of all these good things that you talked about .
the problem is we're buttoned down on deliveries on standard bearings cos of the balls up about .
well okay so you've got to talk 
.
you've got to talk your way through that.
it's the precision bearings that's really the prize.
i mean that's why .
yes.
and and and of course now that er now that we've got the total business beginning to operate as one, the chances of letting them down on standard bearings is very much smaller than it ever was before.
yeah.
the problem the reason we've let her down on standard bearings is because of this changeover.
mm.
oh yeah.
you see it's got nothing to do with the with our 
no no.
competence as a supplier.
no.
yeah okay.
alright.
i'll give you something to 
i'm going tomorrow morning there anyway cos roy's just given me a call, they've got some problems with screw support bearings locking up, but er i'll go over there some time 
right.
.
yeah .
yeah.
.
so i'll sally .
okay, is that happiness?
right, yeah okay.
erm just the one's me main concern.
i mean the others you know it's it's what we get and and sort of thing.
with them it's it's yeah.
mm.
erm i'm not happy with them and i don't know how you get round it .
knowing what's happening there.
well er at the end of the day it may be one that we're gonna we're gonna lose but erm
mm.
if it is 
love the ultimate four letter word and were about to use it all over your television screen.
where do you start with love, every body wants to love, every body wants to be loved, every one at some time or another is disappointed by love and while its difficult sometimes talking about it not talking about it can have some really serious consequences, so let's try to get to the heart of it tonight, one hundred women are prepared to share their wisdom if not their secrets, i'd like to start off by seeing if we can differentiate between loving and being in love.
have you ever been in love?, are you now?, button one for yes, button two for no and in this hundred, woof ninety three people have been in love, what, what happened?,
i mean what, what how did you know you were in love?
how did you know that was, that, that was what it was?, yes
temporary madness
can
only temporary
er, well it does wear off you can't, you can't, you can't 
sustain it indefinitely
and what, what were the symptoms in your case?
oh can i remember that far back
erm 
loss of memory?
yes definitely that erm 
loss of common sense certainly.
would you agree the ninety three of you, is that what characterises being in love, temporary madness?, any other, no well what then?, yes
er yeah, sorry, i write romantic fictions not just lust
yes
being in love i think erm its not something that you have to end it happens to you, its not because er a terribly admire the person i er, your only achievements, its just something that happens and common sense goes out the window.
so you suggest that sandra might be right?
something like 
and 
there might be something in it yes
erm, yes, up there
well i don't agree with that, i think that when your in love with someone you want to be with them all the time, you think about them during the day, you think about them at night, you just want to be with them and usually you like how they look, you like how they talk, they like, you like how they treat you and er to me that's, its wonderful, just 
has 
wonderful
how many times has this happened to you?
many times
many times, at one time i thought it would never happen again, i thought this was it forever, but life isn't like that, things happen and it does change.
yes
it, it is a form of an obsession and it is an excitement and there's a warmth and there's a funniness about it and it just wonderful, better being in love than not being in love surely.
mm, yes
no i feel er kind a be lost, it depends on what relationship your looking for.
i think if its the right one its definitely not lust its every minute admiration for them, just to be with that person.
so, so lust is what you feel for the wrong one?
that's afterwards
yes, i, first meet them, then you can say its lust.
there
can you not start with being in love with someone and end up by loving them?
yes
it isn't always a drastic ending is it?
mm, mm
i think its just an extreme form of friendship, you've become extremely friendly with somebody and it can be kind, in love with your, with your girlfriend it don't have to be in love with your boyfriend, you can have you know some body who's a same sex and you've got the same feelings towards them
that's, that', that's love is it?
its definitely not lust 
but
but there has to be something to trigger the interest in the first place and whatever that is and however mild a form that might be lust, lust might be a more extreme form of it, but there has to be something to interest you in the first place, before you can go on to love, to knowing more about the person and having this in love feeling develop into love.
well what is that thing then?,
i mean what, what is it that attracts you, you ninety three people who have been in love or are in love, why?, what is what, what, what are the attractive things?, yes
you see exactly what you want to see when your in love and you ignore the bits you don't like
until there pushed home after long erm bit too much, to being together to often sometimes ruins the love, er loving means you except the person completely for what they are and you don't mind, they are what they are and your, you care for them like that.
i actually start off quite good and then right or wrong i mean you find it, god what a pig
sitting there maybe picking their nose or nails or, i mean really its that
that their all goody goody and then later on you think, this is not for me
so then you go and find somebody else and then maybe their just not to my expectations, maybe its because like i love myself
without being bull headed or any thing its just that if, i love myself obviously i've got to love somebody else, no i said that wrong.
what you mean is you wish you could find one that didn't pick his nose and his nails
well exactly
yes
which ever way we look at it, its nature's way of keeping us going, its, its what's there to keep us surviving as a species, so its, its very clever, the, it worked, worked, nature worked it out very cleverly indeed that we should have this wonderful passion for someone and it should become love and then we should have children and then it becomes a, the whole cycle and that's, that's how it all goes.
so we, are we enhancing a pure biological function or is all this talk of love and
in a way i think so, i mean if were quite honest about it but we also see ourselves mirrored in whoever we love we see ourselves mirrored in their eyes which is a very comfortable sort of feeling.
what if they, if they love us back?
oh yes well hoping so 
yes
i think its a bit of a simplification to say that its, its nature's way of keeping us going, because actually er ro , the idea that romantic love is the start of a life long relationship that produces off spring is really quite recent, erm for, for most of history er marriage's were on the basis of continuing er lines, continuing property and people had to erm some how or other cope with living with ano another person that might not necessarily have been the person that they would of chosen from love and, and this is still true in many societies and situations now.
so were onto marriage, you see i started trying to talking about love and here we are 
talking about marriage.
let me, let's, let's, let's try a couple of those thoughts, put them to the vote.
do you think being in love is let's call it the mating instinct, is being in love merely the mating instinct operating, button one for yes and button two for no, let's er, let's seal that little lust abate there, well forty seven say yes basically i suppose basically being in love is lust, fifty three say no and what about that, that other point, i mean should you marry for love?, button one for yes and button two for no, should you marry for love?well what very modern people you are, cos eighty two of you said yes, fifteen said no, who said no?
i think its possible to fall in love with the same person more than once, you fall in love with them and you get married for that as well as other reasons perhaps, and then you have children and you hardly see them really for the next ten years, at least this is what every one sort of understands and then and then erm and then when you have more time again you can fall in love all over again with exactly the same person, i think this happens to lots of people, which also doesn't happen to a lot of people so you haven't 
well it sounds blissful, but of course i mean a lot of terrible things happen in the name of love including crimes, crimes of passion as there romantically called in france, i mean people have killed for love, yes.
i found that love went out the window when it was sweaty socks and handkerchiefs and dirty nappies and all this in front of me and i thought well this is not romance this is bloody hard work.
and then, and then did it, did it go the way someone suggested that, that, the you fell in love again, i mean katie said
yes,one , once the children had gone it was different and i think its, i'm a widow now and i think love still remains somewhere.
up there
i think apart from loving them, you must like them
mm, mm
and that's the basis, if you like them they'll become your best friend, there's times you don't love them, but you still like them 
mm, mm, were, were talking about what happens when people who have fallen in love get together and decide to stay together for a bit and its been suggested that marriage can put some strains on er what started off as a very heady mutual experience, if your lucky, let me ask you this, do you think marriage destroys love?, button one for yes and button two for no, does marriage destroy love?, as you understand it mm a few are not sure but thirty people have said yes, who said yes 
erm i, i said yes to er marr being married for, for love and i must admit i think, when i fell in love my head completely went some where else
mm
and my heart went some where else and i think erm, the, the marriage erm, the love in my marriage was definitely killed by an act which my partner did and i would fall into the crimes of passion i think because i mean to, to me he committed the deadly sin of all and that was adultery and i could never forgive him for that and i think that picks up on a lot, many issues which have been raised tonight about you have to have trust in a partnership, you have to give and take and people change and some people can accept all that but i was not willing to do so.
so you didn't go on loving him?
no, i stopped instantly 
yeah, er yes
i think the problem is perhaps that when we love that we no , we never love the same degree, the two people don't li , love exactly the same way that in every relationship there is one who loves and one who is loved, one who kisses and one who is kissed and i think perhaps this balance if the relationship is weak, this kind of works it out that, that then they eventually split up, that one goes the other way and the can't stay together.
i feel erm personally when i was younger that i was taught about love long before i feel in love sort of idea you know comics, the old movies, gave us expectations about what love was all about and i felt that had a, has a big influence in how yeah, when you grow up you feel, you meet this man and
mm, mm
it just all starts then were taught 
and i think 
about it as well 
was it a good influence, i mean do you think the magazines and the books did 
well i don't think so, i mean its getting beyond real perspective i think sometimes.
right now we have, well we've already heard from sandra who's says she's er, er, a romantic writer and there are some other writer's here jean erm margaret, elizabeth are you, you are you pedalling illusions which are er completely deluding people like sadie when she was young are you worried that your actually affecting young particularly female minds in a dangerous way?
mm, no 
i asked for that didn't i?
erm
what do you think or are you satisfying a market?
yes and if you can make somebody think from your writing well that's good.
yes dear
its the, the market is there because people want it and this about er, i think its just too easy to say that people are mislead by them.
people live in the real world, their not really going to be influenced, its about as sensible as saying er a mills and boon novel for example tells people about love are saying m i five use from russia with love as a training manual its the same kind of level of 
things, people read them because they want to enjoy them, they know that real life's different, but its fun.
but your a writer, yes
i think this idea that these magazines are read only by the young is totally wrong, er, elderly women go to the libraries and the mills and boon's section is one of their favourite places, its got more stock there than any of the more serious fiction, so there must be something in it that is satisfying their need for romance perhaps.
mm, mm, yes
yes because i think its a form of escaping
mm, mm
as the lady says its not real life, erm
is that because real life is very disappointing?
yes 
i think, i think when your reading it, i mean the, the female always gets her man and he's always perfect and er, i mean real life is just isn't like that, so its nice to see that it works out for someone.
nice idea.
well actually i think your quite right, but i think the problem is that the older reader reads it for escapism and enjoyment, its, its fun, but i think the younger reader reads it and thinks that's what life is should be like and that's when the trouble starts.
is this your problem?, is this why you ended up with a 
i think i'm gonna have to read one of these books
so, so that that was, that wasn't the case in your, that that wasn't the case for you?
no, no
no
i just feel that even if you have read the book i mean my point would be, i would maybe be reading the book and have a look and say oh god
that would be me.
i read one once and it was the best comedy i'd ever read in my life.
i think there's more to love than just simply romantic love erm, i'm a volunteer campaigner with oxfam and to me love includes love of my fellow man and fellow women throughout the world and i find it very hard at the moment that millions of people are starving in this world and i feel that i've got to show my love by helping them
mm, mm
i think that's important.
its my own personal opinion that the only true love and er i have to honestly say i've never heard love here defined as i would as the totally unconditional love that happens between a woman and a child, probably from the moment of birth that bonds them through life, that's the only love that i could ever admit to.
that's two different kinds of love though then, love, loving your neighbour i suppose is the widest sense and er and the love between a parent and child, are those more recognisable as, as true love if you like than the kind of romantic love, sexual love that we've been talking about, yes
third kind of love, a bit more flippant, love of chocolate
which i was, which i was very worried about because i was told it was a substitute for sex
and then i read this amazing article which said no its completely the other way around, sex is when you, you get sex when you don't get enough chocolate.
i'm beginning to wonder if we need more words for love, i mean if, if love is the only word we have for chocolate er
for your fellow man, for your child and for your, for your partner, is there a prosody of vocabulary here.
i, er i was gonna spring another type of love because we all spend a lot of money on it, the love of pets of animals
mm, mm
and there's a lot of er of what people even leave their, their fortunes to look after some animal and they don't leave it to people like er the lady sitting here who are, folk, folk are starving, but then its because people are needed and people are needed by their children, but there also needed by their men folk and i think its when they turn to being a mother to their men that, you know, even the, the love that they have, er whether its been a sexual love at one time, er friendly love becomes a very caring love and er i think that's what we all remember erm those of us who have lost our husbands, that would like to have that, that part back again
mm, mm
of being needed, and being er allowed to care for someone
up there
i think the mother and child love isn't always pleasant and i think that's quite worrying to some mother's if they can't love their child in the way that people expect them to.
sheena, can i be the odd one out and say i've been in love with one man for forty five years, i haven't heard any body saying any thing very nice about that, i would like to say its wonderful.
oh i
here, here
there, here, here they, they, a lot of them say, i don't know if you are the odd one out i mean there are 
no i quite agree, i also agree with the lady who said that one of the important things is that you like the person, i well speaking from experience, i started out liking somebody
mm, mm
for whom that i had to decide whether i was going to marry him or give him up and decided i couldn't give him up so i married him and was extremely happy and was shattered when he died and i, i, a, it went from you know i, i never real , thought i would be as happy, could be as happy as i was
mm
er, but i quite agree one person er there's nothing, nothing greater.
yeah i'm, i'm interested that that so many of you go from love to marriage as er swiftly as the horse and carriage similarly would suggest, i mean it, every one's experience of love is, is different, every body here is, we've been talking about love between er men and women, but there's also love between women and women which we haven't talked about at all.
do you think society er smiles on all forms of love or do you think some kinds of love and loving are, are actually seen as being lesser than others there, there seems to be less sympathetic for er i mean, yes
well you've just got to look at section twenty eight, now section twenty five, how like we are being discriminated against how even like
sorry, erm your not like getting 
start again, start again 
getting attacked in pubs you know like that's happened to me, being verbally assaulted in the street has happened to me because i am with my lover who is a woman, who publicly i cannot show like that love, publicly you know cos oh i'm scared of violence you know, i like my face the way it is.
who has threatened you?
men basically feel really erm threatened and intimidated like by women loving each other or by men loving each other, you know.
any other views on that, i mean is that a, yes
its just the very fact that erm there's no equivalent to marriage for lesbian's and gay men, it means that society is looking down on it.
do you think there should be?
yes
not so much now i don't think.
i, i, i feel that erm a bit like yourself, what i object is the fact that its again we use
the illusion of love and the actual wording of love
mm, mm
conjures up images and i just object to the fact that people impose on us, degrenality, i mean i, i think lesbian's and gay men have got a right to their life style as we have and i don't think we should be actually imposing and i think that's what a lot of society and what people come out with does er more or less we don't agree with that and its wrong and its objectional 
its not so bad now either way, it was years ago always look down on people like that but not so much now 
oh i can assure you i work, i work in a women's unit and i can assure you its still frowned on by lots of people.
i was gonna say its interesting to hear you saying that its men who attack you, but again with gay men its men who attack them.
i, i've never really heard of women attacking lesbian women or women attacking gay men, its usually if there's a if there's a row something or other because the male of the species seems the one who's been, feels very, very threatened at the 
by there own people 
masculinity or, or the lost of a er female companion or something.
jacky
can i er, compound the issue more?
mm, mm
and, and say there is again disrespect or whatever for, i don't know what to call them transracial relationships
mm, mm
because that's another problem and i think maybe people haven't you know like addressed that.
can, can i just move on to one other issue that i'd like to look at er, because i think we've covered that reasonably for the moment which is, how, how will you find love?, ninety three people said their, their were in love, seven said they weren't, of those seven were, you've never been in love, was it, have, have you wanted to be?, would any of the seven who voted no at the beginning, yes
not really
ah
you didn't fancy it?
no, i'm too in my, i like my independence too much, yes.
any one else yes
i think i was er, i thought i was in love a few times, but erm in retrospect it was lust
so that's, that's,
thought that half of you being in love was, was lust any way.
where, where do you find love?, if their are people out watching this programme tonight who would actually rather be in love 
love finds you 
eh?
love finds you
don't give up hope it finds you
thank you
also like, why, why, do people want to find love?, like is it maybe lulling them into a false sense of si security erm and i think that it is really important as like one woman said earlier on that its really important to love yourself first, cos how can you give any body any thing
mm, mm
i think love is like, when somebody loves you, loves you for just being yourself
aha
i, i think to me that would be the greatest 
respects you also 
yeah, no matter who you are.
sadie
and when you do find its, its beautiful
up there
sharing your life with someone, you want to be with that person and you know that if any thing happens you've got that person to rely on and i think if your alone you don't have that.
if you can find that person, yes.
yeah well i did because my husband before were married was my bus driver on the s m t buses 
he certainly found me and from there we just went from strength to strength and erm were still have together.
lo , yes
if your looking for love and your absolutely desperate there's always a thing called date line which i believe is very successful and i know at least two people who've got very happy marriages from that, so
really?
oh yes
advertising?
yes, advertising it seems incred incredible to me, but erm if any, if any thing 
i haven't tried that but thank you 
well no, er lets put, lets, lets, lets put that to the vote, erm have you ever advertised for love?, either through a dating agency or of course many many newspapers carry erm, what, what they called, lonely hearts columns, now its alright you can vote, i'm not going to pick on you particularly
because er so few, so few of you have admitted to doing it, well five people here have, dare i ask if any one would like to say whether or not it was successful, yes.
well yes and no, erm, every body that seemed to get involved there seemed to be some strange thing missing
erm, like finance for instance 
oh
you know, they were willing to share what i had but could give nothing financially in return.
i don't know, i'm very sceptical.
you've heard a lot of wisdom on this programme tonight
yes
i didn't advertise for a partner but i went to the single's and divorcee club and met my second husband and its magic the second time around.
yes, any other yes
hi, i haven't advertised myself but i'm aware of friends who have and the biggest problem seems to be that when they respond to the ads and then they meet the gentleman in question who's described themselves as six feet two who's blonde and extremely handsome 
turns out to be five foot two, dark hair and really not all that good looking after all, and so the problem with the advertising is that you know how one person sees themselves and advertises themselves not always the way they actually appear so its er pitfall 
ah so the message there is erm there's short dark men out there if that's your fancy
is there advertising for a partner i mean is it, can't, does it come under trade description act?
can they be, can they be sued afterwards 
okay well i think we'll er, we'll probably have to stop this as we've run out of time, let me, let me ask the people here one final question, are you in love right now?, button one for yes and button two for no my goodness, sixty two people are rushing home, the other thirty eight 
are staying for a coffee good night.
and could you tell me when and where you were born, please?
yes, i was born in lane at lane on the eleventh november, nineteen seventeen.
and erm could you describe the house you were born in at all?
yes, it was a tt a very large semi-detached house with erm a smallholding attached.
my father was a miner but loved his garden and we had a big smallholding
mhm.
all garden, and at the bottom was a streamlet, then had trout in it..
so did you live with your parents, in your both your parent in your early life?
yes, erm, that was where i was born and er then when i was five my father erm hit a bad patch and he sold the house and er he decided to become a shoemaker in baysford.
and he and my mother had a disagreement about this and er the result was that my father became very ill and i went home to grandma.
and you you lived with your grandparents then?
yes, and then my father, when he had recovered a bit, he came to live with grandma.
mm.
and we i had a brother, a younger brother, as well.
mm.
were there?
did you ever get any feeling of sort of distaste from anybody about about y your mother leaving home?
no.
no.
my father was shall we say, well respected and er no, there was no there was never any query about it.
mm.
so, you lived with your grandparents then.
was your grandfather a miner as well?
yes, my granda this was my second grandfather because my gra my own grandfather had died, before i was born, and my grandmother had married again and he was a he was the arm-setter at colliery.
mm.
and your father was a miner at this time, as well?
yes.
and also in the house was uncle my grandfather 's brother, uncle bill, who was er a winder at colliery.
mm.
so everybody was based at at , then?
yes.
do you have many memories of well, the men in the house, coming home from the pit, and talking about the conditions?
m m yes, they talked about work or work , and erm, but not about conditions particularly, and was a medium pit for conditions.
they talked about conditions at which was a wet pit, and er how hucknall was much better, anyhow and things like that.
but great talk about union activities.
what were the union activities?
er well, there was the highly immoral thing called overtime, erm if you had too much overtime you was keeping someone out of job.
er you wanted a fair number of hours and you wanted a fair wage.
er the union was very parochial .
mm.
so the men in the house were all members of nottingham miners association?
yes.
what about the general strike?
i suppose the strike would be an early 
well 
memory for you?
yeah.
the general strike,it's a strange memory because i had to walk down pad er now, erm i forget what the proper word is now, er it's called walk, now .
sounds terr er terrible to me,because pad was the way to colliery, the last half mile along a dirt track.
and er granddad was on maintenance, of course, and i used to have to take his meals, so i used to go past the er picket, along with many other people who were busy coal out of the pit tip .
er the picket was not as militant as it is now, and there were the talks of scabs, and things like that.
but the strike was, well we had the pit ponies up, and er we always used to go and feed them, and then we went, of course, to chapel for meals.
i won't say soup kitchens because they weren't that at all, i mean, they weren't as civili you had a civilized meal, i know you sang grace before it, and said grace afterwards, but you had knifes, forks and spoons and chapel china.
mm.
so how?
do you remember how your grandfather and father felt about the strike?
erm yes, they er, they felt they'd been let down by the railway men, i think, or someone else at the beginning at the strike, and they were out on a limb but er they'd got to make the best of it.
mm.
erm i think they thought they'd been let down at the end of it.
erm i was taken to h hear a j , the miners leader at the time, he was the best type perhaps, a welsh chapel parson, erm on the recreation ground and on the marketplace, when thousands turned up,
mm.
attend .
how how did people feel about , because well if you read read alan alan book, then he's criticized very strongly as being too militant, and r well really cri preferred to him.
how how did the the miners?
well the miners er were middle of the road, as lots of miners are now, but er probably more middle then because, well, the colliery chapel and the co-op were a way of life.
mm.
what about ?
, of course, was a chapel man and er i think they saw, or some of them saw him er a in him a way round, out of things, and, of course , he did deals with the collieries to get people back to work, and whilst families had enjoyed six months in the gardens and doing all sorts of strange things, erm the men mainly wanted to get back to work, because they saw time running out.
mm.
w was the strike a period of hardship particularly?
it was hardship in this, that er, perhaps the hardest time came after it when er, well it was called public assistance then, social security payments had to be payed back.
all the things that you'd had during the strike, but things did get left, and er tradesmen were very considerate, there was no chasing for m hard for money and er i know we had an insurance that wasn't paid and we used the book to have an imaginary shilling on a horse each day.
which put me off gambling for good, because whilst we won every day, it seemed, we'd lost a lot of money at the end of the year.
theoretically we hadn't done, but, of course, we hadn't played anything, but it was good exercise.
mm.
well moving onto social life, what are your childhood memories of of playing and with your your father and playmates, etc?
well, of course, er f er fathers and grandfathers er took er the youngster a walk .
er there was walking, there was cricket and er billiards, erm street games, things you can't do now because of traffic.
but a lot more, i feel sorry for my grandchildren, where they can't have as much fun as i used to have, kicking a tin.
mm.
did did church figure as prominently in your early life ?
oh cha chapel later on, i mean er you know when you got to ten, eleven,ch there were so many things at chapel, i mean from learned dissertations, i mean the gentlemen from the university, here.
er prof and , used to come and talk to the guilds and things, er the men's meeting.
and er then there were the concerts or the pantomimes or the operettas.
i always finished up as a bandit, or a pirate, i don't know quite why.
i couldn't sing.
but equally they did silas marner and er merchant of venice, a good standard, too.
so is th is a idea of a chapel being more in the community than just religion?
is that ?
oh yes, it was a very much a community centre, i mean,we played billiards at chapel, and various chapel people had billiard tables un under their dining table and er we u just go and play billiards.
going back to the your mining background, erm after the strike were were your father and grandfather members of both the nottingham miners associa association and the industrial union?
erm, yes.
my grandfather became involved because 's union er made a big thing out of compensation cases.
compensation had to be fought for, it wasn't a matter of right, and a piece of a very small piece of coal fell down the shaft, the onsetter's the man at the bottom, and it through his hand and he got compensation and then my father was sacked for the shovel.
too much of a coincidence,i'm afraid, to our minds.
do you think the two were connected, then?
oh, we're sure they were but er this was the thing with a private collier company where you had er a sort of, not quite chairman, of the colliery sitting there at the top o in the office, watching everybody come and go.
and er after that, my father went with the rounds with the collieries, where you had to belong to union to go to them, and colliery didn't accept what was called the old union.
yeah was?
the pit was the colliery ?
pit as my n pit was colliery, then there was , and then, of course, there were the pits and the pits, on the edge.
er but , collieries as they became, they didn't acc that was lancaster, they didn't accept er the old unions, so they erm they belonged both i can't on friday night i used to the methodist's chapel to pay the old union subscription, and to the west to pay 's.
what was your father and grandfather's attitude to authority in the pit?
were they very resentful about, well, these dismissals?
very resentful about that,, but er no, er i think er tt some of the pi it was er not authority in the pits, they disliked the co-owners, erm one or two, and respected pit always had a respectable authority er and ownership, i mean, stemming from the quaker one.
but er and the other pits where personalities were involved were not quite so happy.
but er the managers and er and the the manager of the pit and then the underviewers, and the rest, they were people who had worked their way up generally, and were accepted.
so had the idea of the coal owner er well at the end of the century, the the coal ow owner and liberal mp sort of connections in ?
well was pit, was and er they came to the family, that was someone at mansfield, came back to open chapel bazaars, and all sorts of things, and particularly for the adult school.
yeah, going on to schools, which w which schools did you attend?
i went street erm, which was just next door to grandma's, only over the wall,.
and er then to 's street, which was called school, for a year and then to 's, when it opened in nineteen twenty nine.
do you have many memories of your, well, early education?
street, yes, because er you went er you had a marvellous thing called nature study, come geography, come everything, where you went for walk.
but equally,the first thing i remember was my number in the infant school, when i was number fifty five, and er there were fifty eight of us in the class, and one lady kept order.
. they were very ordered classes i'm afraid .
was much learnt, or?
yes, oh yes, you learnt quite a lot and er much depended on er the teacher, of course, they weren't as bound as er teachers had been.
mm.
we heard discussions of that.
but erm you learnt quite a lot, and you learnt the basics very, very thoroughly.
i mean, you marched round the playground until you could knew that twelve fourteens were a hundred and sixty eight.
which was when the top class in the infants, at seven, got in..
di was there any sort of education outside school, say, sunday schools, or?
sunday schools, er, mainly was er in best chapel tt tradition, i suppose, of er bible study and also of the social conscience of the methodist.
and er to me it presented a great opportunity,i i j i won quite a lot of books.
i always remember asking for lawrence in arabia, as a sunday school prize.
. and they weren't the victorian prizes, that i won,i we got them for getting through an exam, because you could write or something, and er tt well, they were quite good books, and it was one way of getting a book.
mm.
w what about street school?
street school, i was th there on only there a year, and the headmaster came in one day, he was another liberal politician.
headmasters were always members of the council, in those days, and they were always tended to be la liberal or labour, which i the present labour would say was very pale pink.
and the headmaster at er street school, joseph , was a labour member of council, and joseph was tended to be more liberal.
he came in one day and asked what m c c stood for, and i've always known a lot of useless information, so i could tell him, so i was then dispatched everyday to the erm radio shop in the high street, to get the cricket scores in australia.
and then he asked me, he said, well, have you read that notice on the board about er scholarships?
i said, yes, but there's no hope.
he says, well, your aunt was a teacher,co you could go teaching.
you're na you're not going down the pit?
i said no, no-one at home was, everyone at home had said, you're not going down the pit.
and he entered me for the scholarship,, and er, i won.
mm.
i incurred his displeasure on one occasion, there was a young lady sat on the form in front, we had those, where you sat in pairs, on the iron sort of things.
she had plaits, and i tied them together, on to th behind the bar, and he he caned me..
mm.
i suppose caning was a a more frequent form of discipline, in those days?
caning was, er yes, erm.
if you asked for trouble, you got it.
would you ev would you ever get any comeback from you your father, if you got told told off at school ?
if you got in trouble at school, you got in trouble at home.
no if and buts..
about going t about getting the henr scholarship to , had only just opened then ,
that 
hadn't it?
it hadn't er i went when it opened.
we were er before then there was the , the school just over the wall to street, was the centre.
it was a pupil, teacher centre.
it started life as a technical school, which it was given by subscription, mainly the colliery company, for scientific education.
but used during the day by the education committee as a pupil-teacher centre.
and up till then, you went to you got your scholarship, you went to the tu pupil- teacher training centre and then you became a teacher.
erm if you passed , erm you did a stint and then you came to college, nottingham for your teaching ticket.
so but was without a a secondary school
yes.
for quite a long period, wasn't it ?
yes.
yes, until annie came,m after the war.
was?
how did the community feel about that??
they felt strongly
?
they felt strongly about it, but er was only twelve minutes away, on the railway, quarter of an hour on the bus.
and of course, in spite of everything that's being said, the thing about was that because of the two railway stations you could get anywhere in half or three quarters of an hour.
you could get to i know graham went to , which is way out, other went up the kimberley and that area, and other went to sutton.
and everybody could get home very quickly because of the railway stations that were there.
so did you travel to school on the railways?
we tr i travelled to school on the railway one bit, when they gave us season tickets, because with a scholarship you got your fares paid.
and then they started paying your bus fare, at the end of the week, and so i decided i could walk.
. er fourpence return was two mars bars, and quite a lot of us walked.
were there many boys from at ?
oh yes, there were well, all the erm boys from up to about the fifth form, in the old pupil-teachers training centre went, er was formed by joining that and school, they took boys from there .
.
and er then there was the new intake of ourselves, and er there were probably fifty or sixty the first year.
erm, only three scholarship, but then of course, you got the er governors free places, which were nearly the same, and then the number who were being paid for.
d s so did you notice any sort of class differences within the school?
very little, after the first week .
erm uniform's a great leveller, or a i i'd never had such marvellous clothes.
erm i know a friend of mine, and my ambition, then, was to wear a collar and tie and wear half-shoes, as opposed to a jersey and boots.
erm now, of course, we'd wear a jersey and boots quite happily , but er i did get a grant for clothing because otherwise there was no way of goin of accepting a scholarship.
and erm the immediate reaction, at home, was to say, well, you can't go.
and the headmaster said,quietly, let's talk about it.
and er so i had clothes from , and er i learnt what clerical colo clerical grey was,and er, also what house shoes were, erm you know, slippers for wearing in school.
so tt and of course, the other thing i learnt there was that you had dinner the wrong way round, you didn't have your pudding first, to fill you up..
so what other memories do you have of of , then?
oh, very happy memories really, we erm we had two or three masters from , erm one was the sunday school superintendent, again this chapel and the son-in-law of the headmaster of street, george edward ,, as he's known to thousands.
he must be rolling round, cos he was the maths master, he must be rolling round in his grave, as people say percentage, because he if you said percentage he yelled at you, percentage of what?
. erm but you'd failed him, if you didn't get a distinction in school certificate maths, or arithmetic.
so h how old were you when you left school?
sixteen.
which was, i mean, very late for those ?
no.
no.
we left er the secondary school, or as they were then, the grammar schools, at sixteen.
you left the other one at fourteen.
i could have stayed at street till i was fourteen , i could have stayed at street until i was fourteen, and then you would've been out.
and er but at er there you'd got to go for the other two years, and some parents were rather wondering whether that left you late in the queue for a job, because jobs were very difficult.
or whether you were going to earn enough, later on.
mm.
how did you go about finding a job?
wrote hundreds of letter,er to the people you wanted to do, because i'd never expected having to find a job, i must admit, because the year before i took school certificate i had got a naval a artificer apprenticeship, but then i got kicked in the eye playing rugby, and failed a medical.
something i'd never to do, so i had to settle down and get school certificate, which i got with my matric exemption, and people from did.
it er you were taught, and er i ju i'd say it was as liberal a education as you get now, but you'd got to get your maths, you'd got to english, you'd got to get a language, you'd got to get a science, and 
mm.
it was broadly based.
and so what was the job found ?
and eventually i found a job er as assistant to the er clerking to the rating officer, who had also been a member of t , who was a member of the chapel, and er knew i was looking for a job and er, i hadn't written to him cos i didn't know this one was coming up.
and so he told you about it, rather than?
yes, he told me, he said ah well, have you got a job yet?
i said no, not yet, erm i'm awaiting replies from so many.
so i accepted a job with him, and then i got two offers the next day, one with the savings bank, i think it was, and one with someone else..
and what what payment did you get?
ten shilling a week.
would it have been better had you gone to the other jobs?
or would it have been about the same?
i don't know erm, probably about the same, then.
it was about it was the same as i'd probably got if i'd have gone to the pit at fourteen..
but er nevertheless you felt that you wanted to go into well you were probably to over qualified for going into the pit, weren't you?
never thought about the pit, i'd been there was no question about that, it was something that was not going to last.
i mean, the pits would be worked out, according to the talk at home, and anyhow, we wanted to live in dartmouth.
mm.
so what did you actually do in the rating office?
well, i wrote out births, deaths, marriage certificates, and er then measured up houses on the rating side, erm worked them out for evaluations.
erm used to go down to weddings, at the register office on a saturday morning, and hope that they'd turn up without witnesses, because then you had to be compensated,, for giving your service.
how much would you get for?
i occasionally got ten shillings, which was more than a week's as much a week's wages.
erm but er i learnt to write a fair hand, erm without too many flourishes, which er because i was always told that somebody might be looking at this in a hundred years time, or more.
mm.
in going to measure houses, did you have to actually go out and visit houses ?
yes, oh aye i yes, we you had to measure, and in those days, the councils were grouped in what they called assessment committee areas, and each were wor making sure the other areas were using the same sort of basis.
and i remember, one afternoon, going out with the whole of the rating committee, to houses at eastwood and beeston, and other places, and m in effect measuring them by counting how many nine inch bricks they were across the front and back, to make sure that, you know, nobody was subsidizing anybody else.
mm.
erm and you went in houses, you saw them.
you know, learnt about construction.
mm.
did you see much of people's living conditions?
particularly poor living conditions,?
oh you saw er you'd seen this because er you had friends all over, i mean, the fact that you went to didn't er tt get rid of all your friends.
mm.
erm you had friends everywh , in all sorts of places, you didn't dally, shall we say, in some of them that might have been a bit smelly.
mm.
and others that you wouldn't have gone in anyhow, but they were areas.
but generally i saw more living conditions later on, er when er i started rent collecting for the council.
mm.
and the rating officer was part time with the council, and one day, a rent collector was taken ill, and then i was given a five shilling bag of copper and told to go and collect these
when?
when was this?
er it would be nineteen thirty seven.
mm.
.
so that was 
thirty six?
thirty seven?
thirty seven, perhaps .
that was during well,th the end of the depression, really?
well it was still very depressed in the coal trade, you were they were doing this marvellous thing called three on and three off.
if you worked four, you were worse off than if you worked three, you know, you'd got three days on th er and you got you got three days dole, er unemployment pay.
mm.
and er so times were still hard, it wasn't until they, let's say until thirty ei thirty eight, that the depression finished in the coal field, when they started building up from then.
and of course, this was the time of the means test, when young men from who er lived at home, their income was taken into account, in assessing how much dad or mum couldn't get.
and er they took themselves off to coventry and to and to luton, to the motor trades.
and quite a few went.
what were the?
what 
what?
was the sewage conditions and the the water supply like in the thirties in ?
good..
because there'd been arguments about it earlier on in the century, hadn't there?
oh there had, had er it h erm had a marvellous water supply and it had a good sewage it had a good sewage disposal system.
but erm sewage was to be one of the things i shall never forget, later on.
whilst i was working for the council, someone came to ask and we had some new o new officer appointed and he was very worried about getting ca er p permission from the council to launch a sewer scheme that was going to cost a quarter of a million pounds, a very large amount in those days.
and the older members of the staff, and there weren't many, i mean the total s council office staff was only about thi was twenty or so, and erm more men were employed outside, than anything.
and they said, well you know how to draw up your agenda, and you'll have something that's contentious, in this case it was the supply of stationery from three local stationers, from printi local printers.
and they argue that half the night, and then er your thing will go through on the nod, if you get it in before t half past nine when they er standing order say the council meeting closes.
mm.
s so huck urban district council was separate from nottingham wasn't it ?
yes.
yes.
er nottingham had about three attempts to pinch , and er the last one they were told to put their own house in order, first, because conditions were so much better than in the city.
erm mainly as a result,i i contend, that earlier on the quaker coal owners encouraged home ownership, has this very high proportion of er owner-occupiers.
tt er in nineteen seventy four, i think, at least about three quarters of them were .
mm.
there are no there were no big property owners, no big coal, i mean the colliery company only owned sixty houses, i think, which were sold to the tenants, er when the lease ran out.
w what about the the health service in nottingham?
in ?
er in ?
sorry.
erm health service?
erm what do you mean?
the doctors?
mm.
oh well you had er some very well loved doctors, we had the black doctor, dr , he was er west indian, he took over from another one, dr , who was also west indian, i gathered, i never knew dr .
but dr was a good cricketer, erm he also wrote a very you could also read what dr put, and he was also said that he sent people to hospital very quickly.
erm then there was the er and he m dr , and er dr and then it became dr , who is still there.
erm dr was the medical officer of health, part time, and dr was a character, he always had a white carnation, he rode round in a carriage on occasions, and he er wrote copperplate.
that's when i had to put these things onto dea er put death certificates into th their the doctor's certificate into english , erm they were pretty good,t others weren't so g , er you know, weren't so good.
i have been accused, too, of saying that, you tell your doctor, i'd know what you, i knew what you'd die of,because they had their own things, their own pet hobbyhorses.
erm myocardio degeneration and chronic bronchitis, and erm probably quite accurate, but er short of breaking your neck i think you, bronchitis was the killer, in .
mm.
so yo you had to fill in births and deaths certificates?
oh yes, i had to co copy them, and er you know, you got these things, but the registrar he was , you know, he was man.
mm.
have you s ?
did you see many changes in , over the pre-war era?
yes erm during the h the probably one of the reasons i was set on to start with, was the tremendous amount of house building.
i mean, john , who was a local builder, sold a house a day for five years, which is some building.
and you can see john, whichever way you go into , you'll see john types e and g, the semi-detached on road, lane and road, and road.
you'll see them everywhere.
and one or two people are very honest, they call the house,because they borrowed the money from halifax building society ..
what about transport in ?
transport?
oh well now it isn't a patch on what it was.
erm yo there was so many trains into nottingham, into victoria at twelve minutes, it took you thirty minutes into the midland station, having called at and , and all sorts of places on the way.
they were, first of all, there were and 's buses, direct and the bus.
and then, of course, come along and er for while there was a competition with chasers over the forest, you know one running either just in front, or just behind the other, sort of thing.
and then, tt er reynolds took ove er reynolds went and er trent took over and then duttons went, and trent took over again.
what about?
did many people have cars in hucknall?
no, very few, erm in lane, which is now in an estate agent's parlance, erm a desirable part of the town, they used to be mr the local the solicitor, of castlegate, and his wife used to drive him to the station, to catch the train to nottingham.
she also meet him m met him at lunchtime, because the steam coach used to come out from town, and bring the business men, the wealthier one, out.
mm.
and i suppose, seeing as it was so short, it was worth coming home?
yes.
in that sort ?
oh yes, er he could er he could still have an hour lunchtime, and er only be out of the office, say, an hour and three quarters.
erm moving on a l a little bit, what was your social life at the time?
my social life, i suppose, ticked round chapel, then it ticked round er cycling and er walking.
my brother tt he er had a bicycle and then he joined up, er we did have a hectic time, he could make anything go.
mm.
he built a motorbike out of scrap bits he found on the tip, which didn't endear him to grandma, or anyone else.
and then joined so he joined the army, and i was left with this bicycle, and a friend of mine said, how about coming with us on sunday, you can skip chapel this sunday, and we'll go out er we're going into derbyshire, and i finished up on ack's edge.
i'd never ridden a bike, hardly, before.
but then they had a cycling club, at chapel, and so we tended to go saturdays, and then i started walking and youth hostelling.
we went youth hostelling for m the sort of the chapel choir, after when you grew up in chapel, then you were either found a job teaching, in the sunday school, or you went into the choir.
well i went in a choir, i could never sing, and i still can't, and er the choir used to go out quite a lot, and er we cycled and we youth-hostelled, even as w or in on working parties, at some of the peak hostels.
what about erm, you were involved in the amateur dram dramatics ?
well this er came through the same thing, the youth hostels association, we had a visit from gyp some german ones who did m play reading in hostels, and er some of ours went back there, and the youth hostels associations, they had a play reading group, and er i joined that.
as i say, i'd al been in things at chapel, silas marner and things, but er this was another thing, and of course, that's where i met my wife, at er row, which is the boys' clu was the boys' club's headquarters.
and er we did one or two plays there and
mm.
in the old s st 's church hall on street, which has now gone.
would robin have acted with you, then?
robin , er william was at school, one year behind me and i played with him, but bill wasn't very er big.
erm i'm amazed now when i see him on television as to how big he is, because he wasn't as a youngster, and he was fragile and er we ribbed him because, in those days, you had an attache case for a school bag, and your initials were put on it.
and er, he had the lot, w h m b, you see, and er he wasn't robin, then.
.. and er this was one of things that my old boss, when people came into name their children, he said now remember, these initials will go on case, perhaps, one day, and you don't want s a p, or something like that.
and if they came in a with name that was unusual, er now, are you sure?
do you want a moment to think about it ?
you know, when somebody came up with mehetabelle, or something like that.
er but no, er robin and the local dramatic club was er very, very good, you're in the market for money, putting on things in the chapel, or in the co-op hall, at .
hit-the was usually done in the co-op hall, and er they were good.
mm.
i mean, people didn't pay money just out of,you know, loyalty, completely.
what about the spanish civil war?
do you remember?
well, at that time my best pal went to the pit, his mother wouldn't let him enter in th for scholarship, but he did happen to come here for, well, he seemed to always get a day's day release from the year dot, i think, and er eventually he got some a levels.
he got his trade unions things, and his deputy's certificate, and that.
but then, he got some a levels and he's finally got an open university degree, good luck to him.
and er we used to go occasionally to w e a meetings, in the library at , and er i wasn't a member of his class, but i did once go and hear hugh , when he was at nottingham.
and er then er we had er a tutor who was very, very keen and we nearly all went to er the spanish civil war, and we took er the er paper for ages, erm and er but one of the group did go, frank from , went, but the were always communist, they never claimed to be labour.
but er they were always er well-remembered, and er w spanish civil war through, i suppose nowadays, you call them fringe newspapers, but there was this paper we used to get at the tim at the time it wasn't the er morning star, or even it's predecessor, erm but you got a paper and you sort of heard the other side.
erm er, very concerned as to what it was going to lead up to up, and hoping, you know, against hope that's you weren't going to be involved in anything like that.
mm.
and my grandmother certainly wouldn't have wanted me going she had er her feet very firmly on the ground.
i hadn't realized till long, long afterwards, until she after she was dead, that er she and her brother came to work, when the midland railway came to nottingham, they left norfolk, and he's got a horse, as a carter, and they walked from holt, in norfolk, to nottingham, in search of a job.
and they went to live at , and 
wh what about the sec second world war?
the second world war?
well, originally er i was involved in er registration, because there, with this very loose connection with the registrar, by now i was full time with the council, as rating assistant and rent collector.
and er i got involved on national registration and er, on one occasion, we were working, we'd got a deadline and we were working through the weekend, and my wife came to pick me up at what she thought was a reasonable time, at one o'clock on saturday, found she was given a cup of tea and set to work, and we finished, going home about midnight..
so would you would you work overtime a lot ?
oh yes, you worked overtime, for which there was no pay, i mean, it didn't count er you see things , you know, there was less structure about it, then, erm and you could have ti if you wanted time off for something, you'd probably have got it fairly easily, but er it didn't seem to be the great arguments that you've had since.
and of course, er by nineteen forty erm well, christmas thirty nine, i'd got my calling up papers.
were you on th ?
you were on the point of getting married, by that time,?
no.
i we'd talked about it and said well, we're not going to get married whilst war's on, as er probably the generation before, had said in nineteen fourteen, and er we got married eventually on the first of december, nineteen forty.
erm when one of our friends, who was a writer for the local press, headlined it, the cutter who walked a thousand miles together, before he got called up..
was this because of your rambling?
yes.
so that's the ?
yes.
what what were your experiences of the war?
absolutely chaos,i suppose .
erm i had expressed a preference for the navy, so i was sent to plymouth, to join the devonshire regiment, at mill bay docks, which was a an infantry regiment and machine gun core regiment.
and er it was very reg a regular come territorial battalion, and i was one of five foreigners from up country, erm you thought yourself as er an absolute native in grass skirts, waving a machete, or something.
and er but er we got to know them eventually, but for the first few weeks, whilst we were in devon, i think the five foreigners sort of got landed.
we'd got nowhere to go at weekends, and they disappeared.
. erm but then we slept under every hedge, i think, along the south coast, till we lost our machine guns, collected anti-tank guns, and eventually were transferred to the royal artillery, but still with this county pride of devon, which i'd never met before.
in nottinghamshire, we don't have county pride, to the sense of yorkshire and devon, you know, where it's absolutely m something that really matters.
mm.
erm devon, erm and their distaste of their neighbours, or distrust of cornwall, i know, on one occasion, in the first fortnight, i think, we were in the y m at devonport, and er there was an argument with the duke of cornwall's light infantry and er well, i know we got out of a back window of the y m fairly smartish, erm avoiding trouble.
but er tt erm tt again, er i had a spot of luck, i suppose, erm at one stage we had a very ex-indian service bloke who ha as quartermaster, had thrown a typewriter through the window, he was known to do daft things like that.
i happened to be able to put it together again, it wasn't too difficult, and er so i got the job of being clerk-cum-what-have-you.
it didn't get me out of very much, except a few guard duties and er i collected one stripe, and then two, and i did the pay and all sorts of things.
eventually we m , when we became a mobile, self-propelled anti-tank unit, erm my office er thing for paying everything, was a metal table, shall we say, on the inside of a truck, that was about one foot by two feet.
and on that there was a typewriter and you could send signal messages, and everything.
but typewriters we had problems with because, if they went in for repair, you never got them back from the ordinance core, and so at one place in tunbridge wells we handed a typewriter in and because the army were allowed to buy greaseproof paper, we bought a lot of greaseproof paper which came in the package of a new typewriter.
erm er, nothing changes.
i the defendant doctor david against a decision of the taxing master, taxing master of right, er given on the thirteenth of august nineteen ninety three, whereby the taxing master disallowed interest on plaintiff's bill of the cost in the action for a period from the first of november nineteen ninety one to the twenty seventh of may nineteen ninety three, the defendant in his notice of appeal, claims that the taxing master should have disallowed interest for a longer period, in addition to the period he actually al disallowed int namely there should be additional disallowance for the period from the twenty forth of april nineteen ninety one to the thirty first of october nineteen ninety one or for such other periods as the court deems just.
the plaintiffs also appealed against the decision of taxing master right, er and then appealed on the basis that er there should be no disallowance for any interest at all.
there is also a further appeal before the court in relation to an application by the plaintiff for disallowance of interest upon the defendant's bill of costs and er it is claimed that if interest is to be disallowed on their bill, interest should also be disallowed on the defendant's bill of costs.
so the matter arises in this way, the action that concerns a partnership dispute, er between the plaintiffs on the one hand and the defendant on the other.
all the plaintiffs and the defendant were doctors carrying on practice as general medical practitioners at er .
it's er unfortunately the case that relations between the partners broke down and this led in due course to proceedings being commenced by the plaintiffs against the defendant in relation to the dissolution of the partners, those proceedings were commenced in nineteen eighty nine,, er in the high court chancery division, there were a number of issues raised in the litigation, one of the matters was a preliminary issue, er concerning the terms of the partnership and that came before er mr justice on the eighteenth of february nineteen ninety one, whereby he found in favour effectively of the defendant on that preliminary issue er the plaintiffs it seems were then claiming that partnership, the partnership at will, but mr justice held that they were part of the terms of the particular er partnership deed, so the defendants succeeded on that issue, the trial of the action then followed on the twentieth of march nineteen ninety one and er mr justice made an order for dissolution of the partnership, he then give various directions for accountant enquiries concerning the partnership and he made orders for payments of costs, now the orders for costs were this, that effectively the defendant was entitled to some costs of the preliminary issue and that the plaintiffs were entitled to costs of the er ma if i may put it this way, the main action, and there was then the provision for, set off for the defendant's costs against the costs ordered to be paid by the defendant, perfectly normal form of order.
now if the matter arises on taxation in this way, it seems that a loan, the trial judgment was given on the twentieth of march nineteen ninety one, a minute of order was prepared and signed by counsel for both the plaintiff and for the defendants and that was forwarded by the defendant's solicitors to the plaintiff's solicitors under cover of a letter dated the twenty third of april nineteen ninety one, er mr who is the defendant's solicitor in the third paragraph, had a letter wrote as follows i enclose a copy of the draft minute board, approved by mr , he of course was counsel for the defendant,you are now, you, you were presumably now attend a sealed order .
it's er common ground that in fact er no sealed order was drawn up until very considerably later, the sealed order is in fact dated the twenty fifth of may nineteen ninety three.
now between during the period from the decision of mr justice in march nineteen ninety one and the issue of the sealed order in may nineteen ninety three, it's clear from correspondence which has been put before me that there were er various negotiations and discussions between the solicitors for the plaintiff and the defendant dealing with the questions of costs and also with the question of a general settlement of the whole action, er it would be appreciated of course that mr justice order does not have the effect of determining finally the rights of the parties, erm other than the partnership has in fact dissolved because there were still outstanding issues in particular relating to the premises which were used as the surgery of the premises of the part of the prac of the practice or perhaps i should say former practice.
the position was that the plaintiffs effectively retained possession of the surgery premises and the defendant er moved out of the premises and er went and found other surgery premises and er the position as i understand it is that he is carrying on his own practice today from other premises, the plaintiffs are such as now surviving, are still continue to practice from the former part of the premises.
in on the fourteenth of july of nineteen ninety three the defendant took out a summons with a view to having all the outstanding matters resolved and er this summons came before erm deputy master on the twelfth of august nineteen ninety three and he gave various directions including an enquiry in relation to how the surgery premises er ought to be dealt with as in court in the winding up of the partnership and that matter went before mr justice long in december and he decided those issues and gave directions in relation to and how the premises are to be sold, the effect of the directions very vaguely, is that the premises have to be offered to the partners, if only one of the partners shows any interest then there is provision in the relevant deed for ascertaining the price and this is put to that partner at that price, if more than one partner wishes to buy the premises then there is provision for a fixing of a minimum figure and then each of the partners has to put in sealed offers er and the premises will be sold to the partner, the former partner who put in the last offer, that broadly speaking i think is the substance of mr justice order.
the position at the moment is that the defendant tells me he would like to acquire the premises because erm a low criticism has, was made of the premises as being suitable for the carry on of the doctors surgery in partner, a doctor's surgery in partnership because no doubt the space and other matters, er the defendant tells me that erm they are perfectly suitable for as it were a sole petitioner to carry on his practice from them and that is why he would like to acquire it.
now the taxation of the plaintiff's bill of costs, came before master er and er in his taxation, it seems, and i'm, i think i'm right in saying it, it seems that erm there is no substantial dispute as to the particular items in the various bills of costs with which he was concerned, it maybe that if there were a discrepancy, he has, he dealt with it and nothing has been said before me today, er to suggest that the figures appearing in the bill of costs ought to be varied and accordingly i have not er have to consider the detail items in the bill of costs, the only issue i didn't decide is whether master was correct in disallowing interest for the period that he did, er mr for the plaintiff says that he was wrong er that there was no good reason for disallowing him any interest and that accordingly i on this appeal should erm discharge or reverse that part of taxing order as disallowed interest.
er doctor says not only was the taxing officer right in what he did, but he should of gone further and as i say he should of erm disallowed more interest, the basis of which erm doctor puts forward that submission before me seems to be two fold, first he points out that in fact the plaintiffs failed to perfect the order of mr justice er, er sorry mr justice erm, until the twenty fifth of may nineteen ninety three and that was a, i think he would say a probable failure on part of the plaintiffs and their solicitors to do with what his solicitor had asked them to do in the letter of the twenty third of april nineteen ninety one.
the other point which is made by the defendant is this, he says that the plaintiffs have been guilty of delaying tactics er during the course of this litigation, the result of which has been that er he has not been able to realize his interest in the partnership premises, also he has not been able to acquire a partnership premises and he he, doctor mentioned to me that to the actual conveyance of the partnership premises he's, he tells me was only produced i think thirty and er that er it was only then that he realized there might be a chance that he could acquire the premises for himself, but he says that er because of the general, i think the case is, because of the general conduct of the plaintiffs in delaying the trial of the action one way or another, er the practical effect has been that the plaintiffs have had the benefit of use and occupation of the premises at which he erm, a main view, has a lot of that interest and that they are getting benefit of the kind from that occupation and he is not getting any money in res in respect of that, at least nothing like any market rent because it maybe that there is a fairly small er payment being made, but i'm not too entirely clear whether that is the case or not, but the stock bond is suggesting that the plaintiffs have been obtaining benefit of the use of the premises at his expense and in those circumstances it is unfair er in, in, or otherwise not appropriate that the plaintiffs should be entitled to obtain interest on their bill of costs, in respect essentially of the period of delay, and when i say period of delay included that the period during which the forward of mr justice remained erm unprotected.
when the matter came before the taxing master it appears to have proceeded on footing that erm order twenty eighty, rule four, sorry i, rule, rule twenty eighty, four sixty two er was the relevant er provision under which erm the taxing master disallowed interest.
order twen er, rule twenty, eight, four provides that when a party is entitled to costs, and that of course is the case of the plaintiffs, a, fails without good reason to commence or conduct proceedings for the taxation of those costs in accordance with this order or any direction or b, delays lodging a bill of costs for taxation, the taxing office may one, disallow already part of the costs of taxation that he would otherwise would warn about the party and two, after taking into account all the circumstances, including any prejudice suffered by any other party as result of such failure or delay as the case maybe, and any additional interest payable under section seventeen of the judgements act because of the failure or delay, allow the party so entitled less than the amount he would otherwise have allowed on taxation of the bill are wholly disallowed the costs,his provision for an appeal to allow to the judge and chambers and that is the way the matter is coming before
me.
whether strictly order twenty eight, er order sixty, rule twenty eight for erm applies in this case is not amount entirely clear to me because the obligation to lodge a bill of taxation under rule twenty nine provides that he must begin proceedings for the taxation either within three months after the judgement direction or order of the terminations enter sides are otherwise perfected, and that is presently on it's face which seemed to be debited may of nineteen ninety three and er accordingly that is right, it's not in fact been any failure to comply with order tw order sixty two, rule twenty nine, one, and that hasn't been disregarded, it's not entirely clear to me that erm there is any matter come from paragraph sub paragraph a of rule twenty eight, four, it may already require, still nevertheless erm fall within paragraph b of rule fo , erm there has in fact been a delay in lodging the bill of costs for taxation, the delay being really and truly, the delay in having the order of mr justice perfected and it seems to me that although in chasing matters generally speaking it is the court will itself draw the order, nevertheless where er it seems to be clearly in this case would contemplate it that counsel would sign a minute erm that counsel do sign a minute and that minute has been signed having forwarded by the defendants solicitors to the defendants solicitors seems to me it must be the case that erm the obligation to, as it were, forward that minute to the court, it is an obligation which would lie upon the plaintiffs solicitors and it maybe said that erm there has been delay and erm on the best it should be lodged with the court sealed, er shortly after it was received and that therefore on that footing there has been delay lodging the bill of costs for concession, er mr, doctor doesn't seemed to be take any point in relation to that er because it's not in his interest to do so, it seems to be that he does have to say if it has been delayed, with an order of twenty eight rule four that's a rule, rule, rule twenty eight er four if he is to have interest disbarred and er mr er he'll apparently have the matter of read before the taxing master, it seems that the taxing master did not chew any sympathy with that er suggestion, that er there was in fact no breach of the requirement rule twenty, four, mr he said, very probably, that erm, look on text upon it, he really is concerned to erm have this case dealt with as you put it on the merits, it seems to me it's in the interest of all parties that erm i should deal with the case on merits have on the assumption erm that er, that that was lodged properly i think, i ca i, a matter of which found within rule twenty eight, four and that the taxing officer give our interest under that rule.
right, it's clear in't it under four rule twenty eight, four, it's not essential for the disallowance of any cost or interest that er the taxing officer should be satisfied that erm the other party has been prejudiced, in fact that is not a condition precedent to the exercise of his part and disallow interest in this here item, er any prejudice there maybe is merely one factor to be taken into account in other matters and it does seem to me that the fact the court can, can properly and should properly take into account, is, is that erm, it is desirable that to litigation should erm comply with there obligations, either expressly, express or explicit under the rules of the court to comply with matter such as it should have orders part drawn up and served as appropriate, as i say it seems to me that er the plaintiffs's can be criticized in not erm having perfected the order of mr justice er before they did so but er, i have, it seems to me to look at all the relevant pictures in the case, er if it were the case that the plaintiff suffered any prejudice as the result of that claim, clearly that would be a matter which i would have to take into account, but i'm bound to say it doesn't seem to me that the fender of the plaintiffs to perfect the order did in fact cause any prejudice to the plaintiff and indeed if they, the plaintiffs had perfected the order, it seems to me exactly the same course of events as in fact transpired in this case, would actually have occurred and wouldn't make any difference at all, so unless it's a matter of simply of er seeking to punish the plaintiff as a matter of discipline, it seems to me there is a, not really anything in the point that the order was not perfected er when it seems to me it should of been, and i, there stood to see the other er circumstances, now it's quite clear to me having been referred to correspondence, passing between the solicitors that erm although really from a very early stage er the plaintiffs solicitors referring to mr a letter of early nineteen ninety one indicating that erm the view was being taken that the likelihood was that erm the plaintiffs would have to get their costs out of the defendants share and interest in the premises and er that would be a matter which could only be dealt with when the enquiries director by mr justice had been dealt with.
mr
was the defendants solicitors, the parties during nineteen ninety one, the two solicitors, had dealt with the question of costs and er perfectly normal way, the plaintiffs have their costs,drafted by er cost draughtsman, i understand that in-house draughtsman and erm they produced to mr a bill for costs, er mr looked at the bill and met counter proposals and he suggested other figures, erm, figures in the region of forty two thousand pounds, forty seven and fifty thousand pounds for the plaintiffs costs, the correspondence indicates that mr then, now put forward what with respect seems to be entirely sensible suggestion that er really it would not be sensible to proceed with having the cost taxed, he said he didn't foresee any real difficulty in getting them to agree the costs and that er the common sense thing in the interest of all parties was to see if they could reach an overall,settlement er determining all the matters in dispute, effectively this would be what was to be done in respect of the surgery premises, there was i think, there is reference in accounted to another sec another premises as well which apparently were lease, er but are now formed part of the negotiations and er negotiations continued between the parties during nineteen ninety two, by the end of nineteen ninety two the negotiations were beginning to run into difficulties, the plaintiffs were beginning to put forward non negotiable final offers and er the result unfortunately was that in apparently nineteen ninety three the er negotiations into that broke down.
mr was well aware because he'd been told by the plaintiffs solicitors that the plaintiffs received terms for cover or to obtain interest on their costs, the plaintiffs solicitors wrote specifically to mr enquiring was his offer in, in the sum of forty two thousand pounds, that's er the possible agreed settlement figure for costs, er if it was inclusive or exclusive of interest erm there were some delay but er mr wrote back in due course making clear that interest wasn't included, i should also say that in mr er proposed bill of costs he had disallowed interest for a fairly short period in respect of both the plaintiffs bill of costs and the defendants bill of costs and the plaintiffs solicitors don't appear to have erm taken any point on that, but as i say it, the point as to interest was specifically raised by the plaintiffs solicitors letter and er i'm quite satisfied on the correspondence that they when it came to the matter were seen, were desires of obtaining interest in respect of their costs.
the letter from the plaintiffs solicitors in respect of question of interest one causes, the letter of the twenty ninth of january of nineteen ninety two, asking mr to confirm, that in addition to the settlement figure of forty two thousand pounds in respect of costs he'd be paying interest until the date of payment, and er, there was never a mind that erm which find a reply to in, in thirtieth of march nineteen ninety two by mr , there's no unqualified agreement in figure of forty two thousand pounds, i do not wish to appear obstructive but your clients must recognise that there are effectively two issues to be resolved, namely the payment of their costs and the division of the parts of other property, surely in all parties interest that none of these are resolved, so it is surely in all party interest that those, those are resolved contemporary and then the letter goes on to dealing with questions of valuation, the bottom paragraph on page thirty two in the bundle says in answer to your letter therefore is that there is no agreement to pay interest, if there is then my client must be credited with interest on his costs , and then it says surgery and finally if ove if overall agreement cannot be reached then my client reserves his rights on the issue of costs and i feel that this could lead to an acrimonious and protracted taxation, at the end of the day i suspect it would only be enforced the order for costs about taking a charge in my clients interest in the surgery premises , does that improve your clients position at all, as i say that was the position of the thirtieth of march nineteen ninety two and during the remainder of nineteen ninety two there were then further negotiations, some of them appeared to have been carried out er personally between er doctor and er doctor which seems to of been the partner, dealing with the plaintiffs position and er he says about his non negotiable offer at page forty one in the bundle apparently attached to a letter of the twenty first of december nineteen ninety two and er that had a time limit on, the twenty second of march, there was a reminder on the twenty second of february and erm the plaintiffs solicitors wrote on the fourteenth of april nineteen ninety three raising the question of costs erm say that erm we have now received your clients instructions, that they would be prepared to accept the sum of forty two thousand in respect of their standard basis costs which is inclusive of v a t and disbursements, you remember that our initial schedule of costs which i set part of my letter of the eighth of october total fifty thousand, nine hundred and ninety eight pounds, twenty six pence, in addition to this our client would require interest from the which is as of todays date at seven hundred and sixty days at seventeen pounds, twenty six a day totalling thirteen thousand, one hundred and seventeen pounds, sixty, in the circumstances i look forward to receiving your clients cheque for the sum of fifty five thousand, one hundred and seventeen pounds and sixty pence within the next seven days and then it says i believe you were certainly agreeing have been very patient concerning your clients costs, but now we wish these to be paid and that was responded to er mr on the twenty second of april er but why he quite has not been directly involved in the conversation for some time and there was not reasonable expected response for seven days from him, er and then he goes on to say that although he appreciates his firm is still on the record, i shall seek instructions from my client, but it maybe he would wish to give notice of acting in person and indeed that is in fact what happened, what happened in this case.
now it seems to me with erm with great respect from the view of the taxing officer, that er it's quite clear that er both parties were holding han were holding their hands in relation to a question of taxation because negotiations were going on between the parties and indeed the defendants were being requested er not to proceed with taxation but to see if they could obtain an overall assessment and the point was met to the defendants barrister, telling quite frankly there wouldn't be much advantage in the defendants pushing on with erm taxation because they'd only, they would have to look to his interest in the property to get payment, it seems to me in those circumstances that it cannot be said that erm the plaintiffs were in any way acting improperly and not seeking to have the costs taxed during the period while the negotiations were being carried on er because effectively and
mr replied that is what mr was asking the other to do, that is to hold their hand and to enter into negotiations, now i fully appreciate that erm doctor feels strongly that the defendants have not been negotiating in good faith and have been simply dragging matters out for his benefit, now when i say that i'm simply saying what i understand to be doctor view, i'm certainly not suggesting that i'm finding as a fact, but that was the decision, indeed i couldn't cos i've not heard all the evidence on this matter not as mr to address me on that one, it seems to me with all respect to doctor missions on this matter that if there has been any dragging of feet or other improper conduct of either the defendants in connection with er they remain on in the premises and not paying what doctor would consider to be a full and proper rent or if there has been problem about their not disclosing documents when they should have done, the position is that doctor has er by making an appropriate application to the court, for maybe the appropriate relief arising out of the facts which he can establish, but that is not in general a matter which erm the court should go into on the question of taxation, it's not,th this particular taxation of costs is a taxation as i understand it that are formally to the debt of the order of mr justice and there is thus no question of the court having to consider the question when the those tax those costs have been swollen or increased in any way by reason of spinning out negotiations whether to run up costs or otherwise, that simply doesn't arising it seems to me in this case that maybe a matter which may arise possibly at some future date, though i would hope it would not do so, but er so far as the costs down to the end of the trial of the twentieth of march nineteen ninety one are concerned, it seems to me the fact that the parties maybe negotiating subsequently to deter to rece to resolve the outstanding issue, it's not a matter which really goes to the question of erm what is the proper amount to allow for taxation of costs which have already been incurred, before these negotiations erm we don't the figure of the costs appears to have been effectively agreed between the solicitors at forty two thousand pounds, the plaintiff solicitors made it quite clear that they were seeking interest, this was clear in apparently of nineteen ninety two, but this held their hand, er it seems to me the reason they held their hand rather than indicate it was because the defendant through his solicitor was asking them to do so and it seems to me that mr was acting very sensibly in the defendants interest, because if in fact they had gone ahead and taxed their costs there and then the position would simply be that there would of been an award for taxation, in order, there would be a taxation resulting in an order for payment of of some cost probably in the region of forty two thousand pounds and er that order would itself carry interest under the judgements act, it doesn't seem to me it can be sensibly said that erm any interest has to be in any way increased by reason of this delay and it seems to me that erm if one looks at order sixty two and twenty eight er certainly under paragraph b two erm there's a reference there to any additional interest payable under section seventeen because of the failure on the may, erm, it doesn't seem to me that the effect of what has in fact incurred, in this case has been, caused any additional interest to be paid and er it seems to me the only best that i can see in the evidence before me to, which would enable the court to erm, conclude that there should be a disallowance of interest would be as i say because the plaintiffs appear not to have perfected the order for the payment of perfectively two years, just over two years, erm it seems to me however that, that on balance probably it simply a matter of oversight and even if it had been perfected it wouldn't of made as i guess the least bit of difference to the way the negotiations er proceeded and accordingly i take the view that erm there are no grounds for disallowing interest from either the plaintiffs bill of costs or the defendants bill of costs, accordingly erm to allow the defendants appeal in preparation to the disallowance of costs er interest and to dismiss the defendants appeal for application in relation to an additional period, p sixty of course disallowed, i also propose to dismiss the sum of, the appeal by the plaintiffs from the refusal of taxing master to disallow the interest on the defendants bill of costs.
well there was just, it's not, surprising it's a very long day, when you initially said i allow the period of the plaintiff by mistake you said defendant, just for the record
i allow that, it is the
it's the substantial the plaintiff isn't it, that's allowed
yes i allow the plaintiffs appeal and dismiss the defendants as it were cross appeal from the order in erm it's the august er taxing master right of the twelfth, twelfth of august isn't it?
but i only put that in case the
yes, thank you, that is, thank you, thank you very much
my lord all that follows now is that question costs in this my lord there is no doubt that er this is the painful experience for both the plaintiffs and of course for doctor who is unrepresented and therefore must inevitably feel rather isolated in this matter erm, however in my there is no reason to er depart from the usual principal of the costs which should follow the event and of course we know as it the loss on the subsidiary appeal and so i don't press the point on that cos the reality as you've already probably anticipated is all the work has been done erm on this appeal the subsidiary appeal i ask, i don't ask for costs on that, in my submission it should be both sides bear their own costs on that, the reason i say that is that there was no, there was no cross appearing in respect on it in effect, cos after all, all you were doing was er trying to get the same as the other side if we lost, so no worm of can of beans can be done by doctor i had one parallel in my whole skeleton on that, er, but we have substantially succeeded on the main issue and so i, i would ask that costs in favour of the plaintiffs on, on that and here and indeed below.
what was the order of those costs made below? equally 
cost in both, on both er summonses the costs were against my clients 
so
but, but i accept that er
mr has got costs below, yes, erm 
i accept that you can't, i should of added that in respect of the decision of er september second decision
mm
you, you wouldn't be fair of me to ask you to change that
no i think i mean that's 
i would think that's a chance we took and we lost it 
yes
but i've not our costs
yes mr doctor 
i'm sorry my lord for saying this erm, erm i'm, i'm, well i am really gonna ask for legal fees on this
well i'll deal with that after we've dealt with the question of costs, what do you say on the question of costs doctor ?
erm, erm feel like they're getting the benefit again, again and again, you now make the costs of at every point they take another, they've got more coming in, erm in terms of cash and er at every point i seem to loose, i loose the first case in ninety one and everything now seems to go against me, it seems as though i don't stand a chance any more.
i think i must make the ordinary orders to costs, well what i will do is erm doctor must i think pay the costs of the appeal against the order of master erm both here and below on the other hand the defendant seems to be able to bear the costs of the appeal against the september order, that's the order, that's the order of, is that mr ?, er sorry when i say the doc doctor bears the costs must er in fact he must, right, it is the august, that's the august decision both, both before erm the taxing officer and on this appeal and er the, i dismiss the defendants appeal against the september board with costs
oh yes i'd object to the settlement
and again i'll direct that the costs will be set off, seems to be the sensible course 
well yes did 
yes
for which one it shows i'm afraid, my i ask for er if it's required certificate for counsel maybe required for taxation later on.
erm, well i think it's,do , erm i don't know whether you understand what's been asked doctor it cou it's a question of costs, er normally where er matters erm are dealt with in chambers for in counsel appear then erm these counsel don't get paid for the other side erm unless there is certificate for counsel as i understand it, were the, were the counsel appeared before the judge erm they are entitled to their costs and this is er an appeal to the judge, but er what i think mr is saying is, in case he happens to be wrong in that he would like an order that er his fees should be proper fees of the defen of the plaintiffs on this appeal and er such as you could say seems to me that er, that is a, that would be proper
yes, i think it's been of an assistance to the court yes, assistance to me that erm mr has been at least only to of explain the background which erm is not entirely, not an easy matter, so er if it's necessary i'll give a certificate
i'm grateful, that's for today, erm my lord it may sound slightly more erm contentious, but i'd also ask for certificate for counsel for the thirteenth of august hearing, may i say the reason for that, it's a matter that hasn't come before you, you won't know about, it's this, this reason, because at that period it wasn't just the application under twenty eighty or twenty eight, four for delay there was another application er, which was unsuccessful which hasn't been proceed today, but cost were also disallowed with more serious reason, i submit that said showed er negligent or that improper conduct, there was a substantial attack mounted, and i can use no other words fairly describe it on the professional conduct of and for that reason my lord er both cos the seriousness of the allegations, but of course also because of the potential conflict that they acted for themselves and it would of been in situation for us solicitor hence to turn up, er they instructed counsel and my self, and so for that double reason in my believe we should be entitled to at, at first stage, ordinarily i wouldn't of had a very good run for argument but i, it's my suspicion my clue recollection, be backed up by those behind me, and indeed by the documents that a substantial attack was mounted and it was in, i have to say in full flight terms, and much hence couldn't be said to be unreasonable to deem if necessarily, unusually to send counsel in front of a taxing master, well i won't say any more on the point, but that is my suspicion
what was the taxing off asked for certificate for counsel, presumably he wasn't
well, huh, my lord having lost erm taxing master didn't
no i'm sure he didn't
well rather 
didn't have to pay the costs, it didn't really arise
no, that's correct
yes, that's right.
is it right doctor that you made a, an attack on professional confidence of , other than in a relationship the erm profecting of the order 
my lord it is since that erm because, as you mention that er because of all the delay, that i am quite sure that positively intended erm i lost large sums of paying my solicitors,solicitors as well as a surveyor and therefore i attempted to er, er to recoup that
yes
i didn't er 
yes i see, i think er unfortunately doctor i in this particular case i ought to make an order for certificate for counsel erm in the current, in respect of the costs incurred below on the thirteenth of august seems to me do er the proper kind of case in which to instruct counsel.
erm, i think so there's no dispute as to what the terms of the order are, er mr it might be helpful if you could erm prepare a minute of order for lodging 
certainly 
of course, er provide a copy of that to erm doctor before it is lodged and, i'm sure it can be agreed
my lord do, do we agree to that now or by tomorrow morning?
well i would think if it could lodged during the course of the next ten days or so
certainly, it'll be done by tomorrow morning
i'm, i'm, if there any question over it, the reason why i said ten days i'm already sitting in london for, until the end of next week and therefore if there were any question, it's obvious that it came before me, and that 
it'll be done by tomorrow morning 
yes
thank you
yes, yes, that can be prepared and erm a copy of that to doctor and
certainly
doctor if you don't agree with what it says, erm, you can obviously mention that to and er er along speedily say in the course of this week, the matter can be mentioned in formal to me, erm one morning at ten o'clock next week i would of thought.
in terms of i need to appeal this one
oh yes, leave to appeal, erm it doesn't seem to me that this is an appropriate case for leave, or at least for me to grant leave, doctor 
all court rise 
and don't put your greasy little hands ha?
oh hi warren!
you alright shel?
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don't call my boyfriend a cunt !
that's my dad you're talking about.
jos.
cor!
look at that bum now!
you should relax 
i think you're really
teacher!
teacher!
teacher!
i think you're really sexy warren!
too late, he's mine.
alright, too late, he's yours.
what are you going out with warren?
yes i am.
oh, is she going out with you?
yes i am.
are you?
no, say.
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i've gotta like shelley now.
bloody idiots!
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aha.
oh like you're seeing martin
you know
again?
yeah.
i quite understand.
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oh.
eh?
oh.
urgh!
urgh!
oh my god!
er, er er er er
it was so funny, i had this weird dream the other night, you know.
i mean 
if it's about take that i don't wanna hear.
oh yeah.
it was.
no, i don't wanna hear it.
i got off with 
oh shut up!
and it was 
nice though.
it's erm, it was at the, and he was 
come on!
you're in here to work don't 
we are.
i said no no eating!
sorry miss.
i'll spit it out straight away.
i swear to god.
do i have to say it twice?
yes.
well
it does help if you say it twice cos
then it's work d'ya hear?
her hearing's 
i got this brain problem, you know what i mean?
come on.
you know what i mean?
yeah.
i know what you mean.
ah miss.
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it isn't wo , oh yeah, i'm working by the way, you know.
yeah.
yeah.
she she's working on some poxy thing!
so where are we supposed to get the information then, just a 
in fact, right now?
it is work miss.
yeah, well this is exam work isn't it?
ye , no.
it's not exam work.
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it's a special project.
oh oh.
for a norwegian college.
for a norwegian college about teenage language.
norwegian college!
is it?
yeah.
and i'm recording you right now.
are you?
yeah.
oh!
little microphone right here.
it's really cute.
where's the bin?
like a virgin .
leave it alone!
it's ooh, it's to my, ee, aye, ee aye .
what is it?
ha?
what's it for?
i'm gonna tell 
i thought that was drop dead fred.
i know.
very funny.
considering you ain't got your glasses on.
oh oh.
yeah.
this one, this one i might take away.
doo dee doo .
she said has warren got a nice bum?
and i said, yes.
ooh!
a little walkman.
i've got two walkmans on me right now.
i've got this one and i've got this one.
what about the jungle book?
oh i, i just love that!
really?
yeah.
don't you think it is really good?
nadima, shut your mouth about the jungle book!
mrs will probably 
you little baby!
you're fifteen years old and you still wanna watch the jungle book.
honestly!
ooh bay, boo boo 
some people!
be doo, i wanna be like you hoo hoo !
oh don't start on me you know, saying i can't there on tuesday!
i said nothing.
i'm talking about me !
don't start because i'll, i'll smash 
i'm just in the 
your face in!
sorry!
som , someone like me .
that's okay.
can you pass me my book back please?
okay.
if she starts moaning i'm just gonna 
what am i doing down here?
bust her face in!
yeah.
and, if she starts moaning just gonna bust her face in!
oh by the way i've got the 
i say, i've got friends
oh yeah .
and i'm gonna make them come over and i'm gonna make them beat the shit out of you!
oh sorry.
oh shut up!
okay.
yeah well
i know this saturday.
it's your dad innit?
yeah, your dad, i want you to know 
oh i think it was freddie kruger.
are you having some?
i'm having some.
yeah.
i don't like it.
well it's alright.
oh .
oh well that's a bit of a bummer isn't it?
oh i hate that.
and she's gone and got some.
urgh!
urgh!
why have you got your headphones in?
what are you listening to?
i'm listening to like a virgin!
oh i think madonna's crap!
ooh!
ooh !
so do i.
fuck you!
fuck the both of you right!
madonna is a whore!
it's on that , it's brilliant!
no.
shut your 
she's so 
mouth!
shut 
she is brilliant!
your mouth!
i agree with you.
shut, thank you nadima.
shut your mouth!
and you're just a 
a one-way conversation 
i like madonna.
shut, shut your mouth!
shut your mouth!
i like madonna .
when you've got as much money as madonna 
yes i do.
and as many fans you can then call her whatever you want.
i like madonna.
she's wicked!
i love her new song.
stop beating her up .
oh god!
she's good.
that's so good.
yeah go away from me now.
why?
do you like me?
of course.
ah ah.
do you like shelley?
ah ah, he won't say it.
you know what i mean?
go on give it to me.
i understand , i just, you know, i just, ha, i understand.
do you like me warren?
yes or no?
no you don't 
yes!
have to hi oh oh!
what?
what?
what?
my man!
just, just leave him alone, you know.
he's a cheap man.
i'll save it for you.
yes i know .
nick's a bitch.
you're, you're dark.
can, can we sing our song?
go on, watch go on then.
my name is nick 
oh!
i don't wanna see your .
and i am funky 
and i am funky 
shut up !
my name is nick, my mum's a junkie.
my name is nick, my mum's a junkie.
no don't say that cos i
my name is nick, my gran is randy.
my name is nick , my gran is randy.
my name is nick.
my name is nick.
ready, steady,your gran is randy .
see you guys later.
right.
see ya.
we got a break now.
we got mickey as well.
whip whoo!
ya 
oh i think i'll i'll push in.
i don't like mr i think he should be sacked personally.
i don't like mr .
ooh!
ooh!
i don't like mr .
i he's alright 
ooh!
ooh!
you're gonna break it!
that wasn't very nice was it?
warren i love you.
ah?
you can come over tonight, and don't forget the condoms.
are you coming over on saturday?
no, he's coming round my house tonight with his condoms.
can i come over on saturday?
why don't you both come round 
oh .
no i'll just come round you can appear i make the energies move quickly okay ?
urgh!
that's disgusting!
i don't even know what you're talking about here, you know?
i, i don't nothing about it.
talking about , it's sex.
i dunno nuffink about sex.
i'm an innocent child.
mm.
really?
i dunno nuffink about the birds and bees.
are you a virgin?
all i know is, the birds go mm mm, and the bees, and the the birds go .
yes i am a virgin.
the birds go buzz, and bees go 
woo ooh !
no?
i'm a virgin .
not !
oh!
dirty cow.
not me .
who did you do it with then?
i done it with my finger.
didn't really .
no i never.
i done it with erm erm erm done it with mick.
but i couldn't feel it, i just 
you finished yet ?
that's right, he's really small isn't he?
yeah.
bob.
dick.
well i think mick's quite a prick because he's so thick ain't he really ?
oh shut up!
you're so cruel.
the things you've been saying about him.
i have the right to say these things, okay?
you know.
time to go everyone!
the excitement's over .
what what excitement?
whoo ooh ooh!
come now, come on we better go.
no, it, it didn't matter so much in his hand 
had his hands on the bloody thing he, i just got his a , i just jump up.
cos i 
you but shelley you don't you don't 
no i never!
yes you did shelley!
i never !
he saw your body 
i never.
and ever since then, face it shelley!
i ne , no shut your mouth!
shut up!
i'm not !
that's shelley !
he's a dirty, rotten bastard!
shelley
no!
you enjoyed it.
no.
face it!
no!
you enjoyed it.
i never!
shelley you wanted to 
you rotten bastard !
you shelley are a sick fat bitch!
i'm going .
yeah.
i'm going, you lot are you lot are mad!
karen?
yeah?
you going out with somebody now?
are you?
truthfully?
no.
it doesn't matter what you tell us.
now c twenty eight that some people who i've noticed have been talking one minute.
oh i hate this fucking woman!
i would love to kill her!
ooh!
one minute left.
i can stand it
to pick everything up, it's wicked.
when i first put it on it was bzz bzz, bzz bzz, it's a flymo.
lend us the tape a minute and let me listen.
yeah?
yeah.
go on then.
well are you gonna say something?
hello janet.
hello!
ooh!
it's great.
speak into my microphone here.
speak into my microphone kids.
georgina say something.
i can hear what she's saying to somebody.
see look, whisper, whisper, right, whisper.
whisper from there see if she can pick it up.
somebody should say, karen stop snogging wesley!
wesley man, calm down get your top out of her bra, hand out of her let go of her going for her coconuts .
what?
let go of her coconuts .
go on we could have had .
is it thursday today?
oh 
yeah, it's here.
is it thursday today?
no, friday.
i wish it was friday though.
why?
where you going?
nowhere in particular just want it to be friday .
i can't believe i've gotta get up at flipping ten o'clock on sunday!
oh!
my god!
ah my pen's run out.
well don't use mine.
i am.
alright then.
i'm sorry .
winston tell me your life story.
sorry, what was you saying .
oh fuck!
what are you doing with that?
oh.
well don't worry about it just go back and think, alright?
you just go back and think.
okay?
he will go back too.
erm
yeah i know.
i'm sorry.
oh just shut up!
yeah .
oh what do you mean go back with him, since i've, i've split up with him now like.
alright.
and you're telling me to get back with him.
is he a good snogger?
oh.
lovely.
yeah.
what's it
ooh er ooh!
i know someone who's a good kisser.
well what's it like?
oh yeah!
you expect me to 
me.
show you sharon 
not really.
or something ?
no thank you.
ah?
i said i know wha , someone who's a good kisser.
me.
no me.
i thought you were gonna say nick or something.
nick!
nick!
ah!
come on.
say da da da.
i'll read it.
no i wanna read it!
read it then.
right.
the problem page, just seventeen.
arnold schwarzenegger impression fuck you baby!
asta la vista .
don't worry about arnold schwarzenegger.
the war is over .
it's so unfair
those universal soldiers going to .
don't you remember?'s got the necklace with the ears on it and he goes can't you hear me?
ain't ya?
he's got a necklace with ears on it and he goes, can't you hear me?
and jean-claude goes the war is over .
anyway, anyway, problem page 
well that's not the point, i would have found out.
back on the subject of the problem page 
don't you like it?
just seventeen.
just seventeen this is.
ya.
right.
ready?
yes.
do , dear doctor anne i'm fifteen and i need your advice.
last night i had sex with my boyfriend 
ha ah!
and then the next day he said he no longer loved me.
ha ah!
a few months later i found that i was pregnant.
i know my mother wouldn't agree and she would be even mad if she knew he was a black boy.
i see him about in school but i can't bring myself to tell him.
tell him love.
so please 
tell him.
help.
yours, take that fan, london .
london.
you can tell she's from london.
hackney.
london.
my er, that's it, my sister's 
why are you writing problems?
boyfriend said i'm a common cow and have a got a big nose.
did she?
did he?
yeah.
you're a common cow with a big nose?
yeah.
i wouldn't talk to him again!
i agree.
not really.
he's got a 
andy.
bigger nose than me.
andy.
did your cat legs,le , legs really get did it really get blown off?
?
leg?
no.
it didn't?
it got in it, but he hasn't got any leg.
so it has only got three legs?
a three-legged cat 
brilliant!
.
a three-legged tom.
what have 
hello wesley.
a three-legged cat.
tiger.
it's name's tiger innit?
a three-legged tiger.
how many stripes has it got?
why 
no.
why are you in here?
what are you doing in here?
he sits there panting er it's not warren it is wesley, alright?
his name is wesley!
anyway , i forgot to bring a tape in for you?
tape?
what tape?
the video.
what's it bring it on friday.
but it doesn't matter, i'm not going.
the what?
have you got, have you got a lot on that?
it's only six people.
there's only six people on here.
yeah.
and grace.
where d'ya get it from?
where d'ya get it from.
well what do you put, well 
erm 
they're not 
norway.
friends of mine then, so i'll call them acquaintances.
yeah.
where d'ya get it from?
well let's face it
erm 
we're not your friends.
some college in norway want a research
to say
how did you lot get in then?
class cos we were chosen.
wankers!
erm, say, say 
out of the english classes.
outsiders 
i'm quite good in english though.
erm but 
what , the what warren?
ah?
it's all the hospital stewards in here.
this thing's gonna be so bloody then innit?
no, but she said you could have eight people all talking at once 
yeah?
and they can pick them out.
she said they've got computers to do that.
yeah, i've got another one.
okay.
problem number two.
read .
no, i'm not reading these.
read them to me 
i'm not 
please.
urgh!
urgh!
no, please !
just wai , wait till you're offered.
oh!
magic!
i've got it!
say you got mugged.
keep it.
well you
say i got mugged and keep it all.
oh oh!
they're delicious!
ha?
you read something.
wait a minute.
give me it.
read it don't read, er just start.
don't even bother stopping, right?
start!
don't ca , it erm
what?
no,jus 
give me it.
just read, no you listen.
dear doctor , i'm fourteen 
oh dear doctor alan i am fourteen.
a few months what?
i was fourteen
a few months 
a few months back
a few months back i was bored with myself, and my family, i was playing about with my dog, i started rubbing 
i started rubbing it underneath 
and he really enjoyed it.
it really did turn me on and after the first time i done it it it turned me on so much i come.
what is wrong with me?
p s i'm a kylie minogue fan, from andrew .
you are .
andrew.
please help !
sophie.
sophie.
oh please help.
sophie.
yeah.
yeah.
but you gonna buy them both a 
you've really got a disgusting bite !
ah ah !
that is disgusting !
i rubbed my 
give me it.
urgh!
urgh!
josie and anthony are snogging!
i thought you said 
me and anthony are just friends.
are you sure?
look at anthony he's rubbing .
yeah, anthony stop rubbing up her tits!
well so dis karen!
alright have you stopped 
stop 
now?
stop
can you reach?
stop wanking chrissy okay?
alright.
wesley and anthony would you get out of your
yes wesley!
wesley!
wesley!
no!
miss.
we really can't think about what we need to do, you know.
you had an idea, you said , it's not there.
so what, we'd have to make sure it was exactly the right, the same amount and, in the same flame and the same and see how long it took and whatever took the longest went i dunno whatever?
well you might have a
yes?
i'm really, really interested!
melt anything?
yes.
okay,yo , you want, you want to find out which one burns the longest?
okay.
well if you think that's the 
well one that 
way to do it.
takes the longest will turn black.
it should do.
right.
that it burns
what apparatus are you gonna use?
er, tripod
bunsen burner.
good.
and a bunsen burner.
well
and a flame.
oh alright then.
no one.
just, just one person.
yes cos we do a little bit out of the class instead.
well
well done.
that's what we want.
where did you get that thing?
yeah.
yeah, it's nothing to do with this school.
but she couldn't pull one of us out?
cos she didn't want one of you, she wanted one of me.
i don't believe you.
she wanted one of me ?
and me?
by being a hussy.
peter, robert anthony and grace.
so, six people.
she could have picked wesley couldn't she?
yeah, she could have picked wesley.
wesley, what was your last name?
wesley?
wesley, wesley,we 
my god!
what?
i'm just asking old karen to stop wanking and caressing him.
i've had the last two , that's the last couple of words you wanna put.
yeah.
i know you didn't do it.
you wanna listen to this one .
ha?
you lot ain't supposed to know i'm taping.
i'm not!
i just wanna hear 
oh you wanna listen to something, but you don't know what you wanna listen 
oh hold on.
you're taping right?
well that's what .
why are you taping here?
no!
it's nothing to do with this school.
andrew.
no one in this school listens to it.
why are you taping here?
are you taping ?
yes please.
can i have a look at the bottle please?
oh not another bloody ?
why?
anthony's got drugs.
oh i don't know .
anthony's taking drugs !
so come on
why is everyone
have a conversation.
well hang on, so who does it go to then?
it goes to norway.
ah?
a college in norway.
mr , you've probably gotta give the tapes, you gotta, you gotta give the tapes to miss, erm
no!
i give the tapes 
.
to the wa , student from norway.
no you don't, you give it to 
i don't give it to miss !
and miss gives it to the student innit?
cassie, i've gotta come in on monday morning when there's school to give it to this student.
cassie!
you should say you've got 
cassie!
yeah?
cassie, who have we got to give the tapes to?
give and i'll put, monday is it?
hello.
what are them tablets?
i wanna know.
where?
they're drugs!
yes i'm very concerned anthony.
we're concerned for your welfare.
i mean you might be overcharged for them.
are they cassie's tablets?
don't you think we should get paid for these drugs?
yeah?
yeah.
are they vitamins?
no.
oh i see let us keep the microphones.
drugs.
mid-period pain tablets.
are they paracetamol?
no they're not.
are they period pain 
you just, they're tablets 
what?
do you get red tablets?
yeah.
i do.
i get red and white ones.
i like the blue ones better.
i like the blue and yellow ones.
well i like the blue and yellow 
well i like the blue and yellow ones.
well i've had, one, two, three, four, five, six conversations!
ooh er missus!
miss, are 
erm 
we talking about
josie i really think 
does it look stupid?
no don't start, okay?
i really think you should wash your hair because there's all lice running along the table .
do you want one?
i'm not a monkey.
i don't really wanna go for you
ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh .
no!
get over there.
ah ha, ah ha, ha ha ha ha ha !
your mad!
josie, that's brilliant !
do you like that story?
what?
how does it go?
shit!
right.
i lick your boom boom now.
i like your boom
no.
it's the only bit i know.
informer, something la la la, i lick your boom boom now.
that's nice isn't it?
cos i wonder what 
but it's on the radio
i wo wonder, i wonder what it's about ?
i think it's radio one.
do it in this.
it's radio one.
i can hear it .
that's what i thought .
oh!
ooh god!
we're making a mess, we've made a mess of the table .
are you recording it on your thing?
er er, er er er mm.
it really echoes when you bang the table.
ha?
do it again.
good innit?
ah!
probably have a go at me for smashing their microphone up.
wow!
this is excuse me!
oh sorry!
alright.
right.
oh oh .
everybody everybody up in your mum's!
everybody up your mum's bum!
everybody up your mum's bum!
yo mum!
yo mum!
everybody up your mum's big bum !
involve me in the conversation and i can't hear you talk.
josie get yo my head
out of this one.
out of the microphone.
ah?
put it on the radio.
no, i'm not naughty girl like you!
let me tape some more.
cassie, get it off of the radio!
josie needs to tape it
i know wait a minute, wait a minute, i've got a better idea.
they're taping something there.
wesley dear.
ha?
i'll come over to you.
no i'm listening to the radio.
wesley innit?
wesley, wesley.
nick, nick, nick ?
yeah.
nicholas ?
he's a 
he's didn't?
he didn't , he didn't wanna go out you, you in the first place and he just didn't bother to tell, tell anybody 
then why did he ask me out?
he said, he didn't wanna go out with, he didn't wanna come with you in the holidays.
he just didn't.
then why did he ask me out?
i dunno.
why don't you ask him?
cos i'm not talking to him.
oh, so it's true?
you're not talking to him cos he didn't 
no, i called him up in the week, in the holiday and i asked him to come to shelley's and he said call me back.
oh yeah.
simple as that.
but you haven't?
no, it weren't cos of that.
cos i spent, i spent the first week of the holiday mainly with shelley.
so, didn't really want nick there.
did you dump him?
yes.
on wednesday.
i didn't dump him.
i just said i don't think we should go out no more.
that's a dump.
it's not.
we compromised.
okay.
here's mr .
you better get your head down wesley.
when we used to sit with you in humanities sat next to you right, and i was saying like erm erm, you were saying i got you to say so who are gonna bring down the school to beat me up?
and we got on this subject.
and i said no one.
and you said you bring the mother-fuckers down.
and i got you talking about all the porno magazines.
we got all that on tape.
have you had it all lesson?
yeah i've still got it.
when have you gotta give it back then?
do you tape ?
when have you gotta give that back?
no, not this.
i had a dictaphone.
i've got a dictaphone.
i've brung it into school loads of times.
have you still got everything?
yeah.
oh no, i think i taped over it.
i've still got bits of it about the porno magazines and that though.
what's that down there?
karen, you've gotta cut them across like that.
yeah.
it was quite funny listening to that actually.
cos i go, steven goes erm, steven goes bring the, to shelley, he goes bring the mother-fuckers down like that.
and i go, and it didn't pick it up and i goes, pardon?
could you say that again.
bring the what down?
and he was going and i was going the mother what?
and he's going the mother-fuckers!
and i had it all down 
who nick?
no.
steven.
i had it all down the microphone.
yeah you were going, you were going erm well we'll beat you up.
you'll bring your friends down, then beat us up, then we'll bring our friends and they'll beat them up.
and you were saying all this stuff.
.
you were.
i've got it on tape.
that's what you were saying.
no i wasn't thick though.
and you were saying, oh yeah, we found these porno magazines and we're selling them off to perverts.
and i said yeah but you're looking at them and, and you started laughing.
was the one doing a slice of saturday night.
ha, he was in that too.
i thought that would have been a good night in the king's hall tonight.
and i 
that probably .
yeah.
seamas was going.
what?
aha.
he was getting tickets.
i know, but there's still tickets there tonight.
i'm sure you could have got tickets at the door if you had wanted them early.
someone's probably anybody buying or selling their ticket?
no, but i would say that er, play would be addressing you know, well no say, probably you accepted them for face value to the ticket doesn't say it is.
mhm.
probably be alright.
yeah.
you all would interrogated and all the rest of it.
yeah.
go and bring your in you'll never get it out of here.
aye, that's right.
mm mm.
great that is!
i don't expect 
yeah.
i'd love to even to 
well i 
ride a horse for
i believe, i believe it's opening next week.
mm
oh is it?
mhm.
even though something .
oh!
i didn't even know like 
but it it's next tuesday.
erm it's opening?
i don't know.
i hadn't heard anything about it.
oh!
i don't know anything about horses.
david's coming round children .
it's very highly acclaimed.
i think i'll use it.
and they're doing it fo for five weeks of the year .
there's been road for a long, long time now.
he was crossing wires in .
yeah.
that's the sort of, kinda thing that,the two things that you .
you couldn't do anything!
what?
sure i went to the arts and everything and stuff.
oh!
wasn't in the pantomime?
mhm.
i was in aladdin, sure!
a few years ago.
it's not that.
yes, but mum, i couldn't just go back and do like every show!
i'm not saying that.
they go around.
they're using the arts.
they use the arts.
they use their arts.
and they use bangor, little fair of bangor.
aha.
i think 
who's this?
it's
it's the harberton 
the harberton the ulster operatic use th erm no, but i mean, i a , because i wasn't a member it was like one show was okay, and the pantomime as well.
but i mean, you really have to be, like, a member before like if you were starting to like, want to do all the shows they'd want you 
no, but i mean , no one ever really does all the shows.
i know.
but say,ma , maybe if you did the pantomime and then the next one coming up i mean er er er,th , i think they'd actually ask you like, your membership money.
what's the what do you actually do this for?
no, it's a, as i enjoyed it.
you can take .
well something other than just to talk about other than just the normal run of road things.
you know i do this.
well you didn't watch our studio one on last night.
was on.
?
is he a big guy?
aye, that was on.
oh what's he like?
he's like a big turkey!
well then you wanna see 
i don't think that's his son.
it is his son.
it is his son.
it is!
i know his daughter-in-law.
i,wha when i went to they were quite young and they were toffs there 
never heard of them.
the dad?
no, the son.
and, and er 
oh, the son.
all night, and, they weren't married yet and they would cost all of her bloody .
well you know the 
they reckon that the best damn studio now in britain!
oh!
so there you are.
t v's working.
i enjoyed it but that was not the right one it was just proper room where er you where you used to every night of the week .
she used to cheer us up .
but he that's .
wouldn't take you out of the because he'd go up there.
i always remembered.
i thought , well she's .
she could ma , she can make you dance.
i've been to see him.
mhm.
definitely would be a technique.
you could never dance with a .
i remember the day we went.
oh yeah.
oh, we were sitting there amazed!
me, fiona and richard all sitting.
how's the taxis?
stra strange.
in galbally it says!
aye, that's the new one in galbally now.
but, they burnt out one there was
we have had a right .
no.
like the b and q store .
mm!
they are quite dear that quick cut people .
well they're not saying you've gotta .
i suppose.
i don't really know.
there you are.
how the but i looked at the .
. he travels home from work he sits down are you fucking me about a bit?
and, she says, just me and 
i think i'll keep it.
but he he
i would like to, i would like to try it.
well it's alright for a while but that's alright for a wee while now.
he's a de , a dead nice bloke.
you know, very very doesn't put himself above anybody else, airs and graces and all, when you see him.
speaks very politely.
very nice man.
very, very great business acumen sometimes i wo , i can er but if you just come .
mm.
.
he has no family.
but er, in a way he is .
mm!
when are you gonna do it all?
so what did his dad say ?
good god!
he wrote out another one but his dad reckons he was saying .
we found it on the back .
that t v is rubbish!
he'll be the missing the job now.
.
off the .
mm?
his house or and saying i'll be .
isn't that strange !
i really .
that looks near .
see simon picture in the telegraph?
oh no!
i'll go and get you it.
i forgot about his wedding day on saturday you know.
i know.
you were in town weren't you?
you were working.
i was working.
mm.
and richard was working then as well.
i had remembered about it but it's just i had no chance of getting there.
i'll go and get the picture.
i didn't remember about it.
no.
i'll go and get the picture.
he just is, just totally different to what i remember him being like.
oh right.
let's see.
simon .
did you go out with him?
no just friends.
quick!
where's the tel ?
sorry !
all our days.
la da, da da .
what was it,just said he puts his mouth on the telly !
what was it?
it's the way that
what was he saying?
power to all our friends .
in a wee deep voice, and he were
er er,power 
why?
to .
cos that so song was popular at the time !
it wasn't, was it?
zero four nine from base.
how long, when will he be back in?
over.
what?
what's wrong?
don't tell her about 
no,.
oh!
what's your name?
sure enough!
but di did you go to .
where did you go?
sammy.
we just went down around town.
why?
going round to see this sammy afternoon did you not?
i did.
i got round just as 
around town.
well no, i bought that , we'll still stay.
oh!
so
already .
ah.
i'll have to watch you .
have to get a job.
aye.
well, did you tell him?
ha?
what?
did you say anything ?
it's where you're staying if you were rich.
no i don't think so.
.
bye!
going out?
what?
i keep saying
no mum said.
ah yeah.
christmas shopping and he said and er .
lisa.
no, i've got something to do.
let's hide them.
oh!
you ask polly.
with one another and then going off to 
mm.
.what?
no.
that's fine.
yeah.
?
there's a couple there.
so where does this go?
did you cancel?
i've turned on the other tape there.
oh on the tape.
oh!
so, what do we have to say then?
oh!
things like, you have to .
aha.
i knew was coming.
alright.
you know!
so how are you leonora?
well, well, how are you?
i i, i'm looking for a blade.
a blade.
why, what do you want blade for?
you gonna do your wrists over me at all?
oh dear!
sure!
dear old charlie!
what a dear!
that covers too.
who?
that's
george?
erm 
what?
frank, frank needs three boxes of fifteen mils and three boxes down.
could i have about forty bottles of the er
the dom curie 
yeah.
well
i don't know what he's saying!
there you are.
that's great!
so do you want this in the car ready?
what 
and.
car?
your car that you're gonna get.
volvo, yes.
it's a volvo.
you're getting a new 
volvo.
car?
yes, we have heard it's gonna be a black b m w. 
yeah, well it's gonna be a black b m w.
pretty good!
come down next and it won't be on the honda.
it's the new look.
oh god!
aye, doesn't sh doesn't she know that?
you look awful!
so i don't know.
i'll have to get the motorbike.
because it'll spoil erm 
oh god!
i just couldn't believe it!
yeah.
but i mean 
that was packed 
sort of like for ages 
though.
to come.
do you know the heart, do yo do you know if a heart
yes.
these are practically .
more like it's gonna be easter.
sure when you make nobody .
there's no ties or anything.
you don't know.
wo wo wo well you could be just like it.
so there has been, well i mean, that's probably what's going round cos that way it's going into the fire as well.
mm.
can you smell it?
no.
so what's, what's he saying ?
well erm
he's going into the actually.
yeah, that's it.
yeah, but has she got any kids?
you said.
no!
i said well, why don't you call me the proper name, is it a ?
i just say .
sorry?
ah, sally .
sally .
?
sally .
i give her well over three hundred pounds
who saw me?
on saturday.
the bedroom.
that's a fortune and all.
must be.
so i said , and i said here one hundred pounds there.
i think i'd it all 
and i said 
i said er or he said we could have it for twenty pound a month and we said
aha.
some people perhaps and he said yeah we'll put something together.
and i said, obviously cash it if it's no good.
it's lucky i didn't say .
mm.
he might.
he said he doesn't catch cos i'll be i've, i'll have those right here for your so you're only paying twenty pounds bloody football bets aren't they!
he started to laugh.
well she'll see or not.
is he always gonna be responsible?
i don't bloody know!
well he slips me like hundreds !
get me some of those will you 
and he, i said well sure 
get me some tomorrow
what?
didn't he put a hundred pound on?
i would just kill them!
see that .
i don't really know.
i'll ask him.
ah.
he will have pegged it.
you know, and say has erm dominic got er
i don't know.
!
marvellous!
yeah.
what?
yep, i speaks for him.
great!
well she said she was very nice.
ah, paddy showed me.
oh!
is that bad?
i don't know, he can be a ignorant
er, i don't know.
but he was gonna have something .
why?
, i don't like him.
he, he says to me 
i don't like him.
what did he say yesterday?
i said he came and told me you know
oh yeah.
yeah, and i said he said something about going to the pictures so he's going on about it.
so he said joanne says .
i think that's enough don't you?
yeah, but he's been doing really good!
i said leave us a couple of small .
who's house is that?
dunno.
trish .
everywhere i go he's on my back!
so, that cheek of the .
and are they?
oh!
unless they're erm
i said why, are you thinking of crossing us?
well you've gone onto social security but but after two weeks it's flew.
i'd like to go back london.
and er yeah.
he'll have to pay a fine before he can pick up for it, this is joanne, i don't but he must he must er be up to something.
he said it's every single way because that's there must be a reason but he said they're not getting priority so we'll be left that he said 
fuck his self then!
i would say jim, he'll be, he's very lucky he had a
i was supposed to be .
that's only all he said.
he said i said one thing he's more rebellious.
yeah, that's right.
eh?
.
but erm that's the only other thing, there's nothing with wrong him.
she says er but she said but they're just trying to work it out.
oh it's cold!
isn't it?
i think there's something between moira and he said surely he said why?
i says and i get , no idea if you would kill .
what's ?
how long has francy been here?
four years twenty months.
aha.
i remember her coming here.
cos fifth year on sunday .
next thing it's only for the year.
and he went over and i .
what's that?
that's lovely!
mm.
lovely!
mhm.
alan said, he said 
and then, from then on things worked out.
he's a nice feller.
he is.
i like him.
i like francy.
he used a couple of them bits before if that's all the same to you.
colin ?
you sure look .
who knows me?
i suppose ashley.
he said, johnny but because you know them i wouldn't waste 
your time.
yeah, cos some of them weren't even here.
yeah.
what do you mean?
in fact we'll have to .
mm.
excuse me!
no hear me!
just you tell him that joanne says flipping since when, easter?
in a way.
because i didn't see him cos .
oh no, you never know what he's doing!
i said 
true enough!
i don't like to wear .
it's hard for you.
yeah, he's really a creep!
and he
and i said, tell me what i said to you?heard you talking to me then you know she could go mad!
must be somewhere where the both of you can meet up.
so, how are you?
which one is ticking sarah?
aha.
what?
not too bad.
she's gonna be there now dear.
i wasn't.
i used to si take the lesson this afternoon.
so
takes all afternoon?
yeah.
this morning was a bit quiet like.
oh dear god!
that means everyone driving so 
yeah.
spot the catch.
where we going?
ah!
very good!
what?
forever i'll drive..
stuart must be there.
they used to ma , open on a wednesday.
they're open every night now.
are they?
late?
as far as i know.
erm 
oh!
around there.
i hope he's in the club and everything, they all try and out do each other.
yes.
you ought to see about jackie getting there 
yeah you just go.
how often?
they're just being finished, you know if she wanted.
so you get, you bought them?
yeah.
oh why?
is it wrong number?
i don't know.
trisha you !
you know more than me !
wanted to put her just wasn't right, even now she's .
well there's my mini.
there's your mini dad, do you want that?
where?
we went 
over there.
when we, when we went to mini .
there's loads of them.
it's lovely!
horrible bleeding minis!
what do you want, set of ?
no, nothing.
i've been up to church .
i heard you.
are you ?
no, it was just a family from work.
where are you working today?
who?
you.
going up there.
no, to supervise.
pardon?
that's what she said.
i said i'm going to supervise.
do you know people here to talk?
we'll have all the day, all the morning.
he's only just gone on on thursday.
you know 
aha.
the .
well that's all.
we just got more and more depressed.
it's really hard though, the labour.
i jumped on it, back home.
cut round there and see how the others drived 
it's already .
it's very nice!
i'll have the then.
did you?
ah!
useless!
i don't like her very, still trying to get out of it.
what?
you don't like as much is what you're saying.
that's quite i, i quite like over here.
but er 
does anyone else know?
what?
no.
if i could just move this.
okay.
ah!
i took a bit.
yes.
is there any ?
where exactly is he going?
no, i haven't heard..
you phoned?
no.
he says i'm not to..
ah!
so to indicate where you're going!
it's a woman, joanne.
well
she .
we've passed .
mm.
oh jesus!
there's a right one!
do you always get paid?
yes 
mm.
i used to work on the ne , the ne er, drill.
so you never really went to any fortune teller?
it's down there.
in the, no, but there's a lot down the other way.
where's that?
aha.
you went?
i haven't.
what's that called?
is that it?
the theatre's just here.
ah yes!
i'll i didn't realize his son was him.
he must be working.
yeah.
well i'd erm
ah, hey!
they're very busy tim said, i mean to the
if you wanna buy something here don't be put off by .
why?
what is it?
where are we?
ooh ah!
as long as we know where it is.
we pass it here in a few minutes.
it's anyway after that butchers.
oh!erm then signed himself.
so?
he hadn't changed.
but he has.
what?
talking a load, a load of junk!
how keen are you, like?
oh not too much.
you'll be drunk!
i say one, i said, when i see why, why, here he'll be learning .
alright.
fine.
what about you david, alright?
yeah.
.
who's that in james's house?
och!
and we did tim's work here.
don't know what that is.
dad does a lot of work up here.
he does plants 
what?
and grain.
greenwood avenue!
that's where that and everybody else .
that's where erm this person back there.
back together.
oh well if you go out it'll happen!
i don't can't suit me that much!
no.
mhm.
look at him working those two down there, er there
it goes off ever they look at them now.
no.
i know.
thank you !
what?
.
have you switched that on?
yeah.
so what type of a carpet are you looking for?
one that goes down on the floor!
i'm putting higher up 
er, er er!
indeed!
you should have a solid floor, have you 
don't 
oh for goodness sake!
oh well you have her 
hey?
i'll be making a note of them down here, it was you!
yeah, that's right 
and then with joanne.
you see.
it was joanne said you'd go down there, so you said alright.
i've measured the so that's okay.
you gotta do it for something .
indeed!
yeah i know.
right here!
right now!
so the one we got .
here we go.
has something happened here?
right here!
right now !
what?
what's that?
i have never been in there.
you was.
me and, you and i was in there on don't know when, years ago.
dianne told me the score so anyway you're like a friend can go with you.
you're driving.
ah?
so in a way, like someone can go with you and all if you want.
can they?
well, look!
i don't think so helen.
i mean, they've dropped that wee girl on her own.
no, well because i've seen it before.
you think i would do it.
that wee girl over there, she's riding it.
they must take two like, you know, that one round the bend there they have bars on.
well, well there's arm one you go for, you'll have to.
i don't see how you would learn very much.
no .
your first couple of lessons are half an hour take you driving anyway, and by the time you get up there you'd drive onto them.
.
and, if you haven't been in a car before the driver drives, so you can give me what you owe.
.
which one's paul's ?
what?
ooh!
right, we're going in there.
this is good!
good !
it's sly.
it is.
sly?
you wanna get used to this anyway.
i'll have to .
oh it's nice that !
i think it is.
is this u two?
it is.
i think it is..
i've never been up here before.
why, you mean ?
no,arts, and county, yes, i've been with martin .
shaun lends them their going to the health club.
she was.
she might have told you.
she did anyway.
on there.
that's the one david has.
i every time.
i've seen some in there your
what?
urgh!
can't see it properly.
why couldn't she come?
what?
and that's by
by 
by 
which?
yeah!
you can go in there with your dog.
er, no you can get your dog on there.
well i don't see the erm 
ah?
there's people everywhere just coming home.
well i don't know.
he's a weirdo!
and you just roll up when you're here .
eh?
he didn't even check.
she came along.
well ?
what?
you won't be allowed to .
aha.
yeah.
what er, do you know?
oh my god!
ah .
and i was feeling a bit, a little bit chilly.
if it's , it's really nice now isn't it?
it's really, like i mean 
you're
could be better.
you'd, what?
have you been there?
not for a long time now.
it's really changed.
like, you can see everything .
see the .
ballinamore isn't it?
i've never been at it myself, like, but i mean but i mean the and all is, well there's all the stuff on it anyway.
as far as i'm concerned we can get on.
yeah.
what time is it now?
quarter to three.
tim .
in that there?
i know.
see, remember when i wa , those houses were first, first built whenever there was like heavy rain and everything they flooded.
can't remember when they were built.
i remember those houses being built.
we used to come down here every friday afternoon!
and mum, and emma used to pick me up from school, primary school, and i was like, always last out.
and erm 
and usually, aha.
i remember we used to come down.
but i remember those being built and a at first whenever there was like rain, or whatever there, they always used to like flood the place!
that place is always packed and i don't think we'll be .
aha.
oh we can't .
i like that song!
i think that's quite good.
it's this erm there's three fellers and two girls.
peace, love and understanding .
oh well..
.
what about tim and his ?
.
we he'll never do that.
one so , one show .
oh!
and your four children are too !
peace, and love and understanding .
you reckon?
peace 
what?
and love 
what do you reckon?
yeah.
go over there.
and understanding.
oh, oh oh understanding.
oh ah oh!
night.
real good!
mor or or ning .
see that, did you?
that's the one john and lucy are driving around in.
the pleasure sport one.
that lucy's a brilliant driver!
knocked down.
why?
see your man, brian drive 
.
do you remember?
i'm telling you.
aha.
aha.
so funny how, peace, love and understanding .
no.
but she's on
peace!
on this.
love!
talking about love!
love!
.ba ba, ba ba ah love!
so funny about, peace, love, and understanding .
carpet.
peace, love, and understanding .
where are we going ?
what's so funny about peace, love and understan .
it's .
oh i thought it was.
i don't think it's wise to talk about the robbery.
yeah.
don't talk at all.
if she really wants to let her take them in.
there's the fire station.
sammy used to call those engine fires instead of fire engines!
i think it's a good wee song!
martin carpets.
mm mm.
that's it.
get parked.
what are we gonna do with me .
look at those cars.
there it is.
so rather, would you buy one like?
move!
talk over your head joanne, you usually do!
what are you doing?
still, i can't carry that .
eh?
you two are chicken!
don't you think i should park there?
well either there or no not taller, i don't 
my dad 
wanna be
was gonna buy one of those for richard wa , before he got the metro, it was between one of those and the metro.
and richard said er, would you look sick driving one of those?
he said he loo would die before he got into a car like that!
a renault, one of the renault fours or something.
a .
i think he'll be okay.
joanne, what will i do?
just hook this on him?
no!
take it off!
what way do we go daddy?
up that way.
this way?
yeah but i suppose if 
you alright ?
da alan she was measured as the store in ulster and all.
i really do like that hat!
nine ninety nine, that's good isn't it?
you mean i'll think get it when you and me and you know,
you'll have to cut up that smaller.
i know, my, do yo .
but you see no, when you think my room, my room's maybe, right say seven feet wi wide right?
but normally should have a wee bit that goes in and hole.
so like, i don't know.
i think you must prefer everything in that room.
i know, mum.
you'll have a like and then you could 
that's gone down again ain't it?
hanging on her now.
i think that's a lovely apartment.
i'd like that higher up.
gone are the days .
do you realize that that's where .
what?
in that fair.
and that was the first 
where are my going?
down to here, belfast?
is that the town one?
ya.
you can just go to the other one here providing they can now just go back again and go and ge and get 
where else is there?
that one.
no, she's jus , she's just gone to er mr !
i know, my teacher at school owns lord and cragson floors, he was gonna get me the lino quickly.
mm.
down avenue, just there.
don't hurry like you did that's the .
no we're not.
what do you call a car ?
ring up is what you've gotta do.
well now, we'll now going over to ian's anyway.
you can .
you can.
mm.
i'll just go and pay, okay?
yeah.
no need to have a look.
oh no!
mm.
you never did martin .
i have never been there before.
yeah.
no.
must be a year now.
i know.
like i'm only .
no.
when?
well what time is it?
five past eight.
oh!
well let's go ask and roundabout and go and see if there's ah any cheap things cos we've been to see her again and 
why?
we can order it when he comes.
well it wouldn't have to be sort of 
well dad may not want to walk about with !
sure, dad doesn't mind.
i bet he does!
and val knows it.
val does not knows it.
not a 
oh!
!
anyway, what's my chance i'm gonna get it?
you know .
fly on the wheel, the wheel i shall have to get it off.
what?
got a fly up the wheels.
i'm not talking about the ring!
i'll only choose peach, burgundy with a pattern in, okay?
i've had other guys.
but not pink.
i 
no not pink.
look 
look out!
instead of pink.
in your eyes .
aren't you afraid you're gonna have .
if you did have a car you could go to maces and stuff like that.
you wouldn't know anything.
no, i'd get another car.
well i said 
i 
i if she didn't have a car you could go into maces .
i did it for years.
i had a thousands ships, but no matter where, you're the one for me baby this i know cos it's true love, you're the one i'm dreaming of true blue baby i love you.
i heard all the lies, i've tried oh so many times, but without they fall again so excited cos you're my best friend!
so if you should ever doubt wonder what love is all about
this is a nice one then.
yeah, that's right.
gosh!
my other sister's friends.
pardon?
true love you're the one i'm, dreaming of you're heart fits me, like a glove, and i'm gonna be true blue, baby i love you!
you're the one i songs are really, really strong.
your heart fits me, like a glove so we're gonna true blue baby i love you!
no oh more sadness there's one thing that i don't i searched the whole world for someone like you.
don't you know, don't you know, that it's true love, oh baby!
true love, oh baby!
true love, oh baby!
true love!
it's, true love, oh baby!
true love, oh baby!
true love!
baby!
so if you should ever doubt .
yeah, i quite like this song.
what?
what?
what did you say?
will you able to watch then?
like i say 
yeah, throw it in.
ah!
no!
no, i like it now, even nicer now.
it's nicer i mean 
so you think it's better?
think it's better?
yeah.
right.
don't you know, don't you know that it's true love you're the one i'm dreaming of.
your heart fits me like a glove .
hair.
what have you done?
could you not sit in that chair?
yeah, and we use plastic bags .
it will sure be him.
he's putting the car seat in.
la la la, la la la la
tim just said so he isn't having 
la la la 
i'm gonna be true blue baby, i love you.
we've lost the carpet place.
true love, oh baby!
true love, oh baby!
true love!
oh baby!
true love!
true love, oh baby!
true love, oh baby!
true love, oh baby!
true love .
oh dear .
ah ah ah ah .
what?
it's the radio station.
christian's away to the caravan this week.
and he's so excited he's going spare.
jackie said he's been up for seven o'clock.
he came in to get his bag.
oh!
oh yeah, everything, he was ready for about si i don't know what she said.
and he goes pacing up and down!
yeah.
pacing waiting.
he was really, really excited!
it's just that i have never seen him
who's took all that down there that morning,morning?
cos it's a new caravan, he went to pick it with them when he was staying over.
.
ah well.
see what i mean.
keeping these somewhere else.
why?
what do you say, you'll go away in 
terrible!
one on holidays?
i didn't say a 
in the power of love 
i didn't say where i was going joanne.
mm mm, mm mm .
the banks are closed till tuesdays and you can't mail them.
you don't know where they are.
well i dunno.
daddy she's not buying the carpet tomorrow is she?
yeah, but mu mum i was ready to wait for it.
sure, they're closed on friday won't they?
so when are you gonna 
so that's it!
go out?
so when are you gonna get the carpet?
in the power of love in the pow ah ah, ah 
ah ah, ah ha ha .
ha ha ha!
ha ha ha!
take me it's nearly lunchtime now.
how many of the men there, are there at work?
hey?
they won't even let you anyway.
in the power of love
about, how many?
in the power of love .
i said to jackie , did you have a good weekend?
said it was 
who is she?
pretty good.
it wa , she said, i said did you go home?
and she said yeah, i had a, actually a very good weekend.
what a ?
i know.
he seems alright.
i keep getting him on the phone , i already know.
look?
what?
there's wee there, did you see him?
where is that carpet place ?
oh craigar carpets?
yeah.
i think that's opened about eight or nine.
pat got two new carpets there the other day.
what?
what did it cost her?
see er, home and away?
a , no?
oh i did.
well i thought it was really nice the way megan er, was asleep.
yeah, i suppose .
you what?
i think i was still .
at five o'clock?
where were you at then?
no, i haven't really been anywhere..
ha?
interested in my, my apartment..
this is the nearly got me and i've only seen oh have we actually seen these?
the only 
och!
i must have been desperate!
aye.
we could do nearly a quarter on a night.
it's just up the top of my street.
where is the turning here?
it's just there...
he having their rows with .
he's in and cyprus that was.
yeah.
that used to be here, you know, when that was on .
well i like .
my house is down there..
what?
no.
five o'clock tonight.
what park is that?
it's not vicky park, sure it's not.
no.
i have never ever been to victoria park.
kerry and anne would always take me,when i used to stay with them when we were ten.
used to go into vicky park and all this.
no you're not.
oh!
er, what 
no.
you talking about?
aha.
yeah.
i know, anne would never let me go.
yes, we can go in.
watch your back.
mhm.
i think i'll try it.
have you got a hanky?
aye.
know where the shops are?
in there.
the boston chinese takeaway.
look at that!
isn't that so funny!
look!
look!
look!
look!
very !
yeah i know we're not
alright in here.
i i love them!
but i mean, not like that!
that's rare!
now, i'll show you, i'll point my mini out right.
i love the wee midget.
right.
well anyway you don't like the midgets.
why?
oh deary me !
look!
there's the porsche that she was looking at.
the red one there.
mhm.
v i x.
and my mini's up on top round the corner there.
oh yes!
said , isn't it beautiful!
you could even swap it!
it's lovely!
i'd really like a mini.
it rolls back down.
i could do with that one.
what about a black one?
couldn't do it with a black one.
see those, the honda civic, that wee white one.
i think some of those are brilliant!
i love 
cos there is an older one of those in the garage .
oh yeah 
and er, oh it erm 
so ?
i'm sorry !
and i'll have to get that cheap razor and all .
you'll have to get a car for a .
you'll have to give me those batteries back.
what?
you must bring those batteries back.
what batteries?
no way!
you use batteries and i use batteries.
that's a 
dad!
i'll be every morning i get shaved going to work in the morning.
then i might take the two out of the doll.
what?
i might take the other two out of the doll, won't be a problem.
well the i have the about eleven and with the i wouldn't go out of my way them.
no.
cos you're 
cos yo 
you're being a pain!
you just shut it or i'll so i will
oh dear!
so, can i just jump in there.
cut the grass.
course she does.
you're only talking off it you know shave.
richard's turn now.
you can have it.
here!
exactly!
you've gotta pay me now.
.
give you a course again richard.
aha.
is it?
kelly and anne went out today.
what, what colour is it?
still green?
i'm not telling you.
can't really transfer her back here.
did you go in ?
well it's dreadful!
relaxing.
. mum and dad are staying here.
well .
why, why do you wanna local?
i just do.
oh!
you'll need a big tea for that one.
what else?
good friday is the thirteenth of may so it's not too bad.
is tomorrow 
you'll be 
friday?
yes.
friday, saturday, sunday, and then mon monday, tuesday, wednesday then i'm back in thursday, friday and then off saturday, sunday, monday.
i'm taking friday week off.
what, are yous open easter monday and tuesday down there?
yeah?
so in a way yo you're doing different hours and all so your pay, was that based on forty hour week?
or was that just based on you being there whenever you had to be there.
don't forget he's only started th , the job's only started a week!
i'm just asking dear!
i'm paying for supper.
yeah.
they're paying me for forty hours.
and anything you do above forty hours you can extra for?
yeah.
but, saying that means you got a lot 
you don't have forty hours only to do.
i have.
because the hour, the hours forty but there's loads to be done .
yeah.
i'm getting them sorted out with roy
well erm have you had your pay yet from them, no?
tomorrow?
yeah.
so you, well then you'll still not know what you're going out with because you still have a few days from last week to get .
so you don't know what you'll start with, you'll actually bring in.
i will do.
do you?
on my pay slip.
it doesn't make any difference .
do you remember the form david got with the tax form and all?
he's gonna give it into mericlean and mericlean , just said we'll have to send it off to the tax office to get your tax code changed.
it's er, the tax code on his p forty five is .
well 
his 
it's like i'll get
twenty five.
p forty five is three two nine l.
three two nine?
and the , the number that was on
is five 
er 
o one.
the form, er it's a, it's a fo , official form from the tax office.
he had five o one.
said, five o one from the year began the first of april nineteen ninety two 
ninety two.
until such and such, ninety three a.
so mericlean sent it away with his p forty five to have it changed and they said they couldn't accept it that they'd have to re-apply or something.
and i mean it was an official thing from the tax 
yeah.
office themself.
they wrote , they wrote back and carole showed me the letter and said that this isn't this is
not sufficient evidence or something.
not sufficient evidence of the correct code.
i mean how what other evidence 
yeah.
could you show me?
it came 
well 
directly from them and was posted to you.
it's like 
well pat 
a wee tax form.
yes, that's what i says, what the frig do you have to do to get through to these stupid people!
you know, see tax people, people like government!
well that t v's working.
aye.
see the t v is.
i don't understand keep on paying a t v licence erm 
how much is it now?
it's, a hundred and ninety i think.
is it so?
no.
i think eighty five for a colour t v licence erm i is nothing but the greatest load of bull or bullshit!
no,i it's flipping rubbish!
people are getting ripped off!
even black and white t v's, how much is that?
half a .
and all you get is bloody 
it's only about twenty five pound, is it something like 
bloody nonsense!
that?
wildlife and all, three times a week!
who wants to watch what a frigging ca coot lives on or whatever!
you have bloody football!
see football i'm sick of people having to get the football !
shit football!
and that's all you get!
last night i sat up last night to watch that george foreman fight and they had to put football on before it and i fell asleep and i missed the bloody fight!
because of that stupid fi er football!
football couldn't wait till the end!
a bloody waste!
what's on tonight?
no.
more frigging football!
eleven thirty five tonight, football again!
christ!
. bunch of tarts going round a field chasing a ball!
anyhow where's the oh christ!
you're gonna rip it!
aye, see the ?she's got them offices and half, there's no telling .
what do you think of it?
i've got official forms here from the tax office, i mean, they say they can't accept it!
if they can't accept it, dunno, who ca who can what would john major have said?
who's john major?
the prime minister, you dope!
typical woman!!
i feel as though i'm going deaf.
she's starting to call the wedding off.
that's where you can see all the at work and i i, i haven't even got a stamp so it's .
that's terrible!
what?
what time is it?
twenty to eleven.
what are they calling ?
she's terrible!
but once you got there and got stuck into the work and 
well,whenever i leave the work.
what?
still whenever i leave .
what time do you start in the morning?
nine.
nine?
he's gets a well that's all going into the the prisons.
show us.
no.
i'm always and up the night before 
the t v's going.
i hate having !
well it's not a race.
i'll stay until lunchtime.
maybe give you a wee lesson so it'll save me going on a course so you could bring in all couldn't you?
be a good idea?
well vegetables and potatoes and not a whole lot like, but i mean 
what potatoes would you want?
pink.
pink.
yeah alright.
do it yourself.
yeah, i know.
what's all .
they're lovely!
them pink potatoes are lovely!
they're not that good.
well have .
they're no good.
i like the 
we'll have egyptian 
floury potatoes.
egyptian are they're good you know.
but they're dear!
te twenty twenty pence.
twenty what?
they're twenty pence and that's because they're high.
high.
that's dear.
but, there are a couple of them we're cutting them down.
why are you cutting them down?
we don't lose except worse potato and they're all standard size 
how much?
richard?
for a five pound bag, how much are they?
seventy five.
that's not bad.
depends, most of the time there is a .
sixty nine for a five bag.
oh no, we're sixty nine for .
i turned off the plug bit.
you know where our sammy was at school like, it did fruit as well and they don't really eat fruit, but i mean samuel eats fruit .
aye, well it's it's, i suppose it's all money for him as well.
well he only got four or five pounds worth didn't he?
well i feel sorry for .
yeah..
yeah.
do you have granny smiths down there?
yeah.
should be, hardly ever .
i'm 
mm.
sure we went to 
well, i thought it was mostly for people there.
it's very well i think it's just back there.
yeah.
but if you're just a .
not very men have their sunday dinner on sunday.
yes.
mm?
i'll be there to work.
we'll probably have something on for mother's day.
you've had something special today you can have beans.
it is this sunday , yeah.
our bean .
something really fancy!
something super.
whoever took this?
move that m sixty keyboard will you?
oh!
jesus it's
are you sure you've got a driving ?
no.
erm i, you know that way as you went to ge , you always turn your head to check your blind spot?
i didn't turn my i just went fucking blind spot!
i did it anyway.
i'll try five pound of erm that .
they need washing do they?
i said, what's the point of having a judge and the jury that says ah?
what do you mean?
you know if someone goes it's, gets taken to court for say, a murder
aha.
what's the point of having the judge sitting up there when it's jury that's saying whether it's 
well he has to and the judge has
oh i see.
but that's all?
so he could, so much 
well 
to say i'm committing 
he 
you to jail.
well i mean
oh, well, well, well, richard.
do you have dirty cards, yeah?
aha.
oh well she'll be getting off in .
will you pay for them then i'll pay you richard?
yeah.
well that's what it will be, more or less,anyho , anyway get the cabbage from the change from the vegetables.
cabbage make a change to the turnip or cauliflower or something.
so just keep that wee bit wait till get them.
the cabbage is erm
white.
hard cabbage?
yeah.
i like hard cabbage.
well not if it's done in the pressure cooker cos it'll come out all soft.
ha!
i love !
cauliflower.
add that up.
and the wee mushrooms and things.
eh?
what, the wee button ones?
oh they're
i usually get tomatoes and all, as well but if three tomatoes still in there.
so we won't need tomatoes.
sometimes i get a lettuce but lettuce don't eat it all.
as i've said it's usually sometimes i go out and you need a bag.
the dole queue woman stop.
gosh!
look at that!
i dunno whether 
mm.
but not the news they're talking about this.
what for?
it is!
who says!
i'm very happy for you!
they won't know where they're going.
i'm .
there's a couple of choices.
do not dare!
get your 
okay.
for your ?
i dunno .
so you are.
get out that thing.
i didn't know mum was shaving her hair.
what?
i just know mum was .
it's only 
kept on the walls.
no.
right.
are we going?
yes.
she .
no.
oh !
i'll .
what?
i'll see .
i'll see her in the morning and .
where were you going?
yeah.
the job as bad as that?
no.
it's okay.
once you get there it won't be okay.
just getting through it.
i reckon i'll get an offer, that'll be i've .
yeah, so contact me first.
are you going out somewhere tonight?
well i'm not gonna go .
and i mean
i'll tell you what's been on the, the, the and i say that .
so he'll let us know when .
gary went in the church tonight?
yeah.
yeah, well he's living .
as if he's playing cards tonight.
i don't know about it but he was there in church on thursday 
well that would be yesterday.
no, this thursday.
oh aye.
i know.
i'm going to bed then.
right.
night!
alright.
gonna sit and stuff myself first.
are you sitting?
quite nice?
yes?
off, i'll switch it off for you.
what?
i have a proper wee bit.
well we'll go to bed and watch this.
he's terrible looking there!
isn't he?
don't know.
who is he?
ooh!.
somebody .
i would.
is that on?
what's this?
shouldn't eat that.
there's no t v .
well st aldate's in the civil war is quite a problem to talk about really, erm in half an hour, because it's so enmeshed in the story of oxford in the civil war which is a long, very interesting one, so what i'm going to try and do is erm to pick out some of the local landmarks that did survive in the 17th century and relate them to what we know about some of the people and in this short half an hour, just try and picture what it was like to live in st aldate's during the civil war.
obviously a whole lot else is .
i think it's quite important to orientate ourselves first, and you're looking at a map of oxford in 1643, erm and 17th century maps for the most part are what we should call upside down.
the north is at the bottom, and i think it helps if you stop thinking about it as a map and you think about it as a birds-eye view, a helicopter view, erm and then the whole thing begins to make sense.
erm now, what you've got there is a slightly later map of 1675, which is exactly the same, the north is at the bottom, i'm afraid the top is not very obvious, if i could just hold it up, you've got the castle there, and you've got it the right way up, and actually there's some writing as well.
erm and the reason i've given you that one is that that was drawn in 1675 by david loggen, and it's a very, very accurate one, and it's rather easier to see some of the places i shall be talking about, so i think it's a nice one for you to have close up.
erm there are some little differences which are quite interesting too.
now, if we find carfax first in the middle, oxford's on the crossroads principle, like so many cities, we've got st giles down here, erm and oxford of course a small city, or we should regard it as a very small city.
it was still a walled city, the walls were all virtually intact, the castle was a bit ruinous, but it was there, and it had its four main gates, erm east gate on the important london road going out past magdalen and over magdalen bridge, erm the north gate here, the westgate by the castle, and then still existing then but not in your map if you can find it, the south gate across the road, just at the bottom of christchurch, can you find christchurch on your map? erm now, perhaps you can that there's a difference in christchurch on your map with this one.
when cardinal wolsey fell, he hadn't finished the building of tom quad, the whole of this side was left open because he'd planned a very grand perpendicular chapel like king's college chapel, and erm the ruins, well no, not the ruins, the foundations were still to be seen apparently in the 17th century john gomley tells us.
but it was open, i mean it must have been fenced in some way later on.
erm but there was this great gap and i think had the civil war not come, the dean of christchurch who was the first of the two fells, would have probably finished that building then.
as it was it was finished, as you can see on your map, after the war, erm but perhaps you can also see that tom tower is not yet built on yours.
that wouldn't come till the 1680s.
now st aldate's was a long narrow parish.
it didn't quite reach up to carfax, and it had another great landmark, as well as the big, rich college of christchurch, and that was the guildhall, built at the centre of the civic power, which was more or less, well, just where the town hall is now.
it had 2 big inns, and we're more or less, well, we are on the site of the first one, blue boar inn, and on your map, rather strangely, it seems to be built across the opening of blue boar lane, i don't know if you can see.
erm anyway, it's just about there, and then, almost next door, presumably in competition with each other is the other inn, the unicorn inn, erm so that was it just on the south side of blue boar lane.
erm one very important house is erm what is now the newman mobray bookshop, and that of course is still very much as it was in the 17th century.
it belonged to an extremely important erm civic family, thomas and john smith, who are the two important ones during the civil war, thomas was mayor just before the war, john smith was a member of parliament in the long parliament, and erm there's a slightly complicated story to the house, thomas moved out of it just before the war and built another one way up the street, but john stayed there, and another important landowner in marston, umpton croak, owned the other half of it.
if you go down to newman mobray, and walk down that little alleyway, rose place, you see what is the frontage of that house, and it's very fine, and you can tell these are important people building themselves a fine house.
erm and i've got a picture in here somewhere , which i'll pass round.
erm and also, the alice shop?
do you know where i mean? erm well, that too, is a 17th century building, i've got a an early 19th century butler engraving of it here, and some pictures from the alice shop itself, now that was owned by a walter paine, both these citizens were well off brewers, erm those are just pictures of the same one, it's a little bit of a problem because this is called the house belonging to the manciple of christchurch.
i think in fact that's a mistake from,a mistaken caption.
manciples were like college bursars, and they were very important.
i'm rather advertising this because i think it's important to understand that although, and i'm sure you know, that there's this constant war really between, it wasn't of course a physical war, but certainly tension, and difficulty between the university and the city.
erm i think it's important not to see the city as a sort of down-trodden, poor,hard-working, well, i'm sure they were hard-working, but very poor people.
we're talking about two powerful organisations, both trying to keep their privileges intact.
erm undoubtedly the university often won, but that didn't stop the city keeping on trying.
erm and i think one other citizen should be mentioned, erm which is one john nixon.
he didn't actually live in st aldate's, but he must have been here a lot, because he was mayor in 1636, he was an alderman erm he was very much a leading in the city, and i think the leader of the opposition to royal policies.
erm and erm when he came back after the war, he actually was so much involved on the parliamentarian side he had to leave oxford during the war, but when he came back he built a school in the city which was actually in the guildhall courtyard, it was built round the courtyard, and that remained a free school, for the city's boys right up to the end of the 19th century.
right, now, we've talked about very briefly, touched on the division between university and the city, and obviously the erm differences between the king and parliament exacerbated what happened in the city.
that's a complicated story i can't really go into at the moment, but was very much to do with the royal policies of the 1630s.
am i blocking your view?
no.
erm this is quite an interesting cartoon, and really has no connection with either st aldate's or oxford, erm but it was actually published in 1642, and it shows the two sides, the roundheads and the cavaliers, and what i think is interesting about it is that it does seem to be quite objective, it doesn't seem to be particularly getting at one side or the other, which is very rare for the kind of erm cartoons that were later issued during the war.
and i've really just put it up erm because erm this is a complicated story but, one does want to be careful i think about seeing the sides as too neat.
erm undoubtedly the university erm with it's connections with the aristocracy and the landed gentry and the church was mainly royalist, but that is not to say that it all was.
one college, new inn hall, completely emptied during the war, because erm they were on parliament's side.
erm the warden of merton had to get out of oxford quick when the king arrived, because, and spent the erm war in london, name was nathaniel brent, and he was quite an important man in the organisation of the parliamentary war effort, and lincoln had rather mixed loyalties, too.
so even university wasn't completely on one side, and again the city was erm there was this sort of puritan element that didn't like the king's religious policies, erm there was this general feeling against the university which tended to put them off to the other side, but there are undoubtedly loyal citizens erm citizens loyal to the king.
and thomas and john smith, who i've just mentioned were actually a split family, thomas smith was erm so loyal that when the first round of parliament, sorry, when the first royalist troops came into oxford, he, as a j p prosecuted some of the citizens who tried to stop them blocking down botley bridge as a defence measure.
whereas john smith, a member of the long parliament actually was beaten up by those same royalists troops, so erm because of his parliamentary sympathies.
erm but he seems to have played things rather cool later on, he disappears at the beginning of the war but comes back into oxford, and then later, actually sits in the royalist parliament,1644, which he certainly wouldn't have done if he was still on parliament's side.
erm and i think really most citizens, and i daresay, a number of the scholars in the university too, were rather more interested in keeping their heads down, and erm just trying to keep out of it, and where the citizens were concerned, keeping on earning a living.
erm and i think that's an important thing to remember while we're thinking about what happened in st aldate's.
well undoubtedly the first thing that happened in st aldate's, the most important thing, was after the battle of edgefield, when the king rode in in state erm in victory he said, though the fact that the battle was indecisive,and it was described by a very royalist writer anthony wood, you may have heard of, is a university antiquarian erm very much on the university and royalist side.
‘they came in their full march into the town with about 60 or 70 coloureds borne before them which they'd taken at the battle of edgehill from the parliament's forces.
at christchurch the university stood to welcome his majesty.’
well he doesn't bother to mention that the king also had an official welcome at carfax, which was the normal place, what was known as the penniless bench, which was at the end of st martin's church, only the of that remains at the moment, now, erm and then was presented with the traditional gift of gloves by the mayor, and the not very generous sum of £520, and just about the same time, alderman nixon and 12 others who agreed with him disappeared smartly from oxford, and weren't to be seen for the rest of the war.
now the king chose oxford for pretty obvious reasons as his headquarters, he'd lost london, he needed a capital and a headquarters, erm and erm oxford had a delightfully convenient central position, its transport is very easy with the river erm navigable, erm on both sides of it.
easy to defend, with its walls still existing, and the two rivers, and of course, with resources, with fuel and war effort, and the kind of buildings where the king could form a court.
and the best building, though it's not technically part of st aldate's, was the one he obviously chose as his fort, which was christchurch.
so court dominates st aldate's throughout the war, and i think therefore we should spend just a little time looking at the people involved, erm but not too much.
this of course is erm one of the famous van dyck portraits of charles before the war, painted in 1636.
painted for a bust to be made, so that's why we have the three views, but i think it's very lucky, it means we can sort of walk round charles, and get our own view of him.
and perhaps van dyck doesn't flatter him in quite the way, flatter's the wrong word, sort of transmutes him in the way that he often does in his very elegant and sophisticated portraits.
well, charles immediately set up the kind of court that he'd had in london as far as he could, with a very set routine.
he had his two elder sons with him, he had quite a lot of time for enjoyment, certainly to start with, he went hunting round woodstock quite often, and they played tennis, the erm racquet sport, and i think they played tennis in the racquet sport, i'm not absolutely certain, was actually just erm facing onto blue boar street, erm behind the unicorn inn.
erm they had great services were held in christchurch cathedral, and the king would have looked out from the deans house, and this is the view of tom quad, a modern view, of course, of how you can look out onto the great quad of christchurch, but of course it wasn't like that.
erm tom tower wasn't there, the elegant pool in the middle wasn't and in fact the whole thing was probably rather chaotic.
we know for instance that quite often erm pillaged flocks of cows and sheep were driven into the quad as one of the few open spaces within the city walls.
anthony wood gleefully recalls this.
erm so i think you want to regard it not as a sort of glamorous place where the troops were drilling and the drums were beating, but a slightly chaotic and rather dirty place, despite the kings existence.
another person the people in st aldate's would have seen was the kings nephew, prince rupert, erm only 23 but one of the king's major assets, a brilliant cavalry commander.
this is painted just before the war, and it's interesting to compare it with a painting by the court painter, william dobson who worked in oxford during the war, his studio was just around the corner in the high street, because that's rupert very much at the end when things were going badly wrong for him, erm and it's unfinished, perhaps because dobson was beginning to run out of paint, and the experts at allow, and i think just that face tells the whole story about tension and unhappiness, dobson's an interesting painter, one of the first english painters who sort of get to the top in this way, and he painted a lot of the cavaliers at charles' court, erm this is sir john byron who clattered down the main street at st aldate's, before the king even arrived before the battle of edgehill, the one that caused trouble for john smith, erm and he was very much a swash-buckling character, but he didn't spend a lot of time in oxford later, but he was there enough to have his portrait painted.
that black mark is erm a scar patch, if you got a scar during the war you got a wound in a scuffle erm you won in the war, you did sort of emphasise this in that way.
and so charles cockshall, who is the owner of court out to the north of oxford, who is the king's master of ceremonies, and i think that's an interesting contrast, because here again you get this feeling of tension, and sadness.
erm there was a great deal of difficulty i think at the court, as well as the rather glamorous exterior.
erm the queen didn't arrive till 1643, she'd been in the netherlands raising money for the war effort, very successfully, because she finally came to oxford with 2,000 foot and 1,000 horsemen, and erm a hundred wagons full of equipment as well as cannons and so on.
i don't know if it all came to oxford, but certainly most of it did, and erm the city council actually spent six shillings and sixpence strewing the streets with flowers to welcome her, which erm when we have a look at the amount of money that was being, having to be raised elsewhere it was quite generous really.
and she got the pair of gloves as usual at the penniless bench.
erm then she came down to christchurch and was welcomed by the heads of the university, her husband had already greeted her outside oxford, on the site of , actually, and then charles escorted her to her own household in merton college.
i think she undoubtedly added to the intrigue erm and difficulties of her court, erm one example, she was always getting people that she approved of, getting them plum jobs, and one example was one of the governors of oxford, the most unpopular, one sir arthur aston, who was so unpopular that he got attacked on the street, and then had to have a body guard paid for the city council, and then was curvetting on his horse in front of some ladies, and fell off and broke his leg so badly that he had to have it amputated, so from then on he had a wooden leg, erm that meant he had to stop being governor, and later on in the war, a countryman was coming into oxford, and asked the sentinel ‘who was governor still’, and by that time a friend of prince rupert's sir william leg was governor, and the answer was ‘one leg’, and the countryman's reply was ‘pox on him, is he governor still?’.
(aston).
erm i think two people have had tremendous problems and again must have been going up and down st aldate's, because they were very busy officials, was edward hyde, who later became earl of clarendon and wrote his story of the war, again of course from the royalist point of view, and his great friend, lord falkland, who was secretary of state for the king, and became so upset and worried by the rash policies of the queen's party and the general atmosphere of intrigue, and by the war itself, that he does seem to have more or less committed suicide at the battle of newbury, by riding ahead of his troops into the enemy.
and erm edward hyde wrote an elegiac mourning comment on this, which we really haven't got time for unfortunately.
erm sorry, i think we'll just stick with faulkner for a moment, because i think that leads us on to the constant tragedies of battle casualties, which were obviously very much brought in into oxford whenever people were wounded outside they were often brought in to oxford to be cared for, there was a hospital out of yarnton too, but a great many were cared for all over oxford, and the greatest of course were buried at christchurch.
erm the tombs bear witness to this, there's two governors actually, sir william pendon who died of one of the epidemics in oxford and sir henry gage who was another governor, who was only governor for a month because he was killed in a scuffle near abingdon.
erm but the grandest funeral of the lot was the king's cousin, erm which was, erm and the funeral procession came from magdalen down to christchurch, the footman soldiers came, he was, sorry, killed at the battle of edgehill, and the funeral took place on january 13th 1643.
‘the footman soldiers came first with their muskets under their arms, the noses of the muskets being behind them.
the pikemen trailed their pikes on the ground, the horsemen followed with their pistols in their hands, the handles being upwards.
the tops of the colours also were borne behind, a chariot, covered in black velvet where the body was, drawn by six horses, and the man that drove the chariot strewed money about the streets as he passed.
three great volleys of shot at the interring of the body, and lastly an herald of arms proclaimed his titles.’
well, if death can ever be glamorous, that, i suppose, is the glamorous side of war casualties, but i think we need to spend the rest of our time very much looking at what it was like for the ordinary people of st aldate's. erm and here, i apologise for producing a modern slide of carfax, but i think just to remind you that we are talking about a very busy crowded city area, and erm about a city whose whole aspect was changing during the war.
the university buildings, all around st aldate's, the bodleian had become a warehouse, full of corn, coal, cheese and the uniforms for the king's lifeguards were made there.
new college was an arsenal, magdalen college had the heavy ordnance, which was clattering through the streets drawn by horses, whenever it was brought in.
there were mills all round the city that were grinding gunpowder or sword blades.
erm i think the city must have become a real mess, there were stores piled up everywhere, wood, coal, corn, often i think they had to build sort of, something to hold the corn, there's a lot of the evidence for that in the college accounts certainly.
military stores, every musketeer had to have at least two metres of match which was a fairly thick cord, which was used to ignite his musket, and if you start thinking about how many musketeers there were around in oxford, a whole lot of match had to be stored.
that's quite combustible, sort of oiled cord.
erm and there was, of course, powder had to be stored as well .
and as well as that, beyond the city walls, fortifications were being erected all the way round the north of oxford, the bits that weren't covered by the river.
that's another story, where they were, and if you're interested, downstairs there's a very good map that shows you superimposed on a modern map of oxford where they were, but they very much affected citizens in the st aldate's, because every citizen, and every scholar who was still in the university, between the ages of 16 and 60 had to work on the fortifications at least one day a week, or pay a shilling fine.
and getting them to work was a constant problem and collecting the fines, and we do actually know about this.
if you would like to look at the second sheet on your erm of the two that you've got, erm this really brings to mind , one day in st aldate's, in the summer of 1643, when a very hard working, methodical loyal official, edward heath, was ordered by the king and his council to walk around st aldate's, and make a list of all the defaulters, all those who had failed to work on the fortifications.
erm and there are erm it's quite difficult to read until you get used to it, but erm the title is nice and easy, could i just have a copy, erm down there?
i don't want to deprive you.
erm now, if you look at the top, you see the widow smith's house, and then it says ‘the officers would not speak with him’.
next to that would be a sort of double stroke in the margin, erm can you see the name holloway erm well, on the line below that, erm it's talking about the earl of newark and his servants, and then on the following line it says, ‘removed to trinity college and son gone out of town’.
erm now, there's a very nice one, if you move down to the single stroke, you see there are two 2s written, and below that there's a single stroke.
erm and if you look at the second line, and begin three words in, it says ‘the mistress,’ the mistress is abbreviated, ‘answers her man cannot work, nor can she spare him till she be paid for what her husband did for the king's soldiers’.
you can just imagine her standing arms, you know, just telling the man where he .
erm perhaps you can begin to pick out where it keeps saying no answer.
the next two in the margin, if you go further in you'll see a ‘noe answere’.
(it's always spelt n o e, and answer has an e.) one does have this feeling that people were getting wind of mr edward heath walking down the street, and were going out the back doors of the house.
erm yes, now if we get to about half way down there's a plus in the margin, and the third line in the bracket below that plus, more or less on a level with a three dot, and a little bit below, it says, william, i think it's wilkinson, a minister, curate of st ebbe's parish, ‘his answer that he must attend the burials and christenings’, so obviously he couldn't work on the fortifications.
and then, if we go right down to the bottom, there's a whole lot bracketed together against the .
‘no answer, but that they would not pay’, they ought not to pay.
erm and one can go on picking out a great many of these people once you get used to the writing.
it is fairly easy to read, once you begin to get .
now, as well as the fortifications, i think one wants to erm very much keep in mind that the citizens of st aldate's were constantly being asked for money.
there were these big loans for instance, £2,500 once the city had to make to the king.
and this was collected by the parishes, and we know that st aldate's had to pay £280, which along with all saints, the city church, was the highest amount from all the various parishes.
and then there was money for maimed soldiers, for what they called visited persons, which was the plague, fire and candles for the courts of guards, that was paying for fire and candles for all the little sentinel posts round oxford.
if they were freemen, they had to give up their right to graze in port meadow, because erm the hay was to be grown there, to be promised to his majesty.
they had to perhaps give up their pots and pans, or they were supposed to.
actually, a remarkably few were collected, to provide brass for armaments.
and there were actually arms collections too.
they were supposed to raiding the city regiments and paying for it, there was constant trouble for this, and the man who was appointed colonel by the king, nicholas selby, was very unpopular.
but i think the main thing that they all had to bear to survive, was a tremendous amount of overcrowding. erm now, we're fast running out of time, aren't we.
what i am going to talk about next is erm i'll just mention that, about another 5 minutes, i think, will get us to the other great bit of work that poor old edward heath had to do in st aldate's, which again, that gives us a great deal about the insight as to what it was like there.
erm i just put that up, which should have been up while we were talking about money, which is erm the beautiful oxford crown, which you can see downstairs, which was minted at new inn hall, the college that emptied, and was turned into the mint, mostly from college plate.
erm and, of course, that was a symbol of all the problems of money that the king had, and the ordinary citizens of oxford had in trying to provide him with it, mostly very reluctantly and unwillingly.
with everything going on about the poll tax, it's extremely easy for us to understand how they felt.
now, this is not an oxford cartoon either, but it's a looting soldier, and very much, i think, underlines what people felt about soldiers around the place, and to go back to the overcrowding, erm the great problem was that constantly not only soldiers, but a great many other people, court officials, court servants, barbers, whoever, erm all had to found accommodation, and because st aldate's was so near the court, a great many of them were of course connected with the court, they had some high ranking ones.
now once again we know about this because edward heath was given another job, just about nine months later, the king had decided he would summon a parliament in oxford erm and in january '44 it was due to meet, but where were the members who were going to come into oxford to stay.
and so edward heath was sent round in january 1644, all the houses in st aldate's to find out how many people were in them to see if there was any more room.
and once again of course, meticulously, he kept his records.
erm you can see, probably recognise the writing erm we've just been looking at.
this is his final total after he'd been all the way round st aldate's, he went round 73 houses, and he says here, i think this is a sort of hieroglyphic that would probably mean something like 'item'.
gentlemen and their men servants — 267, these are the extra people staying in the houses, not the people who lived in st aldate's normally, women — 66, children under 16 years of age — 13, soldiers of the life-guards — 62, total in this parish — 408.
so that's 408 extra people living in st aldate's houses.
now, i think there's probably a very nice parallel here, i can't help thinking it was probably a bit better, must have been better organised in the second world war, but there's going to be a erm special exhibition here isn't there, on memories of change on oxford in the second world war, and of course there were a great many extra people there too.
and, because edward heath is so meticulous, we do know who were in all these different houses.
erm i won't go through too many of them, erm but blue boar inn, for instance, had 21 extra people, had some of the king's servants, some of the prince's servants, they had two scottish peers, and their servants, £ 21 extra people, in a big inn, there were 14 rooms, i think, that were, could be called living rooms, but never-the-less, i think it must have been pretty crowded.
£ but i think to give us perhaps a more vivid idea of what it must have been like for ordinary people, these are 3 houses in st aldate's that don't exist any more, they're down more-or-less where the police station is, erm and we do know exactly who lived there, and who was actually there during the war.
sorry, i'm trying to find the right bit of paper.
there we are.
right, now £ this is, yes, this is a fairly big house that was put together 31 and 32.
then there was a erm largish house, this one, and then a very small one on the end.
and erm there has been some research done, they produced a plan of what they actually consisted of in the 17th century.
the top layer was built, that you saw in the photograph, was built later, so 31 and 32 had two rooms, erm on the ground floor, and 2 on the first floor, 33, which was smaller, but it does have a fair sized room, and another upstairs, and then the very small one is 34.
now, in 31 and 32, lived a prosperous widow, the widow of a butcher, a mistress jane hawks, who was carrying on her husbands business, and doing quite well at it.
she had a step-son and a wife, but we don't quite know whether they were there or not.
but she also had living there a colonel stringer who was quite an important scots officer, three of his servants and a sergeant and one other soldier, so she had 6 extra people.
next door was a parchment maker, who had one corporal billeted on him, but we also know that 2 soldiers died in his house, and so it's possible that he actually looked after wounded soldiers, which was, of course happening all over oxford.
£ and then in the tiny house lived a widow, elizabeth treadwell, with one sergeant and two other lifeguards, so she had 3 soldiers in that tiny house.
what we don't know, of course, is how they organized their living accommodation, whether they ever got paid, they were given these sort of , £ tickets that were supposed to be honoured later on, but as far as we can make out, they hardly ever were, erm and how the people got on, we just have to use our imagination, but it is interesting that here for instance in these three, we actually apart from anything else have two women house-holders, who are obviously erm women who are carrying on business of some independence.
£ well, i think i really had better stop there, and then if you want to ask any questions erm we can go into them, but perhaps i could just mention two things that i would like to have said more about, one was, that you probably know, there were three or two major epidemics in oxford, of what they call plague, but it was probably a form of typhus, in 1643 and 44, and a good deal of sickness, i think, still in 1645, and the other was that there was a very serious fire, which almost certainly arose from these kind of living conditions, because anthony wood says it was a soldier roasting pig, erm and i think a lot of cooking went on in very unsuitable situations.
and the fire actually started beyond the north wall, just by the north gate, but the wind was blowing from the north, and it blew it down, and although it didn't burn the rather better stone houses, facing onto st aldate's, erm behind i think a lot of the poorer houses did suffer, and st ebbe's parish, next door, suffered a great deal, and because it was war, i think they just, the city council, city records lament that there how hard it is for people, and there's no money to help them.
so it's erm there was in fact a great petition made to the king on these very lines, really because of the fire.
so i think life was erm boring, tough, hard-working, pretty unpleasant during the war, erm and i think most of the citizens must have been very very relieved when the surrender finally came, and it brought no actual fighting, and at least the city was left reasonably unscathed.
sir, is miss not in?
no.
could you take your coats off please and come into the blue room.
well who's taking miss 's class?
question?
what?
the answer.
can you come through please.
right folks donald is here making typical of english in use from schools at the moment.
so if you would er ignore the presence of the microphone that would be helpful.
i intend to give you a demonstration today based on work that kevin has done.
he's his plate with hard wax as many of you now have done.
he has varnished the back with, can you remember what sort of special old varnish it was?
straw hat.
correct.
well done.
straw hat varnish.
now it's safe from acid attack on the back and on the front except for where he has lightly drawn through the thin wax coating using the etching .
drawn this little character and what i intend to do is put this into acid and etch it.
the actual etching process where the acid bites through the liner into the metal and makes a rule.
when that's happened i'll take it out of the acid clean it and show you how to take a print from the plate.
i would like you all to try to remember the stages of the process because you're going to have to do, as i said to you last lesson, a small write up on this in order to get your unit of accreditation for this work.
that is to say your special certificates .
right erm would you normally be room?
would you normally be in this room?
is it likely that there are other pupils who may turn up in that room in a few minutes?
or do you think that you may be the only ones?
are they all on the english trip?
okay.
in that case could you just take your coats off and put them somewhere erm out of the way.
please.
now we're gonna be using acid very very dilute acid.
nevertheless we have to take proper precautions.
so, if you would be so kind as to get into a position where you can see what i'm doing without being too close it means that if we do splash any acid by accident er the likelihood of it causing any problems to anyone are minimal.
have you come to supervise miss 's class?
as it happens it would seem that most of those children are out on an english trip.
oh.
perhaps you would like to go and do your own thing.
perhaps you'd like to stick around and watch this happening because i remember you subbing once for an etching lesson.
oh it's an etching lesson is it?
yes can you remember?
yes 
yesterday wasn't it?
and you thought well i'd better not 
i'm not having them running around .
that's right.
i remember you saying.
so perhaps you'd like to keep them right 
have a .
and make sure i do it right.
but on the other hand if you 
i don't know how to do it .
oh well i meant from the point of view of .
safe safety point of view.
safety 
oh i'll stay for this.
is that alright?
mm.
smashing.
thank you very much.
this by the way is er donald who is making sound recordings of in the school today.
. so swearing.
er right my friends.
as i say, i would like you to be in fairly close proximity to where i am so that you can see what i'm doing and hear what i'm saying.
er and i don't want you to be too close.
i will actually be working to start with in this area here.
so perhaps you could arrange yourselves in a semi-circle just round here.
right, my friends we've very strange and wonderful chemicals in this erm i do beg your pardon when we are printing.
the one which you will have come across when we were doing lino printing was turps.
we had to use turps didn't we, to dissolve the printing inks?
can you remember that, when you did lino printing?
mm
but when we're doing screen printing we use very much stronger solvents which can have a nasty effect on your skin.
you notice i have slight eczema on the palms of my hands.
some of us have even worse eczema, yeah?
so it's really important that we don't irritate our skin.
but frankly it's not likely to irritate your skin anyway because er you aren't industrial users of this you would only ever touch these chemicals for a very short time so the any possible side effects they might er have on you will be greatly diminished by the fact that you didn't use them very much.
if you're using them in industry, day in day out all day long, then that is the real importance of wearing protective gear.
but i'm just going to demonstrate to you just what happens.
this lovely supple rubber here is exactly the same supple rubber here at one time but now it's gone all hard and denatured because of the chemicals.
so if y if the chemicals will do that over a long period of time to rubber, think what it would do to your skin.
does that make sense?
mm.
these lumps have become so erm hardened by these chemicals that i can't er pick up the thin zinc plate from the tub.
i'm afraid that mrs has gone off with, ah mrs i'll be very grateful if you could bring me in a bowl.
you know the one you just took out?
you want it back?
i wonder if i could have it back please?
a a bowl.
a a bowl, it doesn't matter which one.
just a plastic bowl please, washing up bowl.
do you want anything in it?
or just water?
er bring it empty and i'll .
thank you very much.
i'm gonna have a a bowl of water handy just in case.
so having put on these er temporary protective gloves.
these are ones i bought long time ago.
erm they're as you can see, still a bit awkward but much easier to use than these.
what do you think the other piece of protective gear i might need would be?
goggles.
goggles.
good.
and i have a pair of goggles here but there is another safety device built into this which is this window.
in fact the tray of acid will go in there so any splashing around i might do, any upward splashing is not likely to reach .
you will be relieved to know i've ordered some new rubber gloves like this and some new goggles for next term.
but you don't need to use them this term anyway so it's alright.
the acid we use is nitric acid.
it's very very dilute, only fifteen percent acid the rest is water.
and i have used this particular acid already to etch zinc.
can't hear you.
oh.
i just, i'll just .
i'll see you later.
consequently this acid now contains some zinc which has eaten it away.
there'll be a residue of zinc in there.
the other metal which i mentioned to you before which is the traditional method for etching is copper, copper plate.
and i am told that it is not advisable to use the same batch of acid for etching copper as has been used for etching zinc because the deposits of two metals in the acid creates erm an unpleasant, noxious, possibly poisonous gas and i don't know what that would do.
talking about gas, even this produces gas.
therefore you have this machine which is an extractor.
it's called a a fume cupboard i think.
a s sort of cupboard.
it's open at the front.
it has to be because we have to get our hands in.
but it's extracting the fumes going out the window.
possibly not very ecologically sound but safer for you at all events.
this hasn't been used for some time so it's a bit so i'm just going to wipe it out so there are no particles or foreign bodies in there.
and this bit i do before the lesson and i do this, clean it up afterwards.
you don't have to do this bit.
but notice that i'm pouring slowly and gently away from me into the dish which i shall then put in here, and i'm going to put the the plate, which i described to you before, which has been covered with what's on the back?
straw hat varnish.
what's on the front?
hard wax.
hard wax.
and scratched so the acid should bite through there.
has anybody got a chronometer on them?
what?
you have haven't you?
what?
a watch.
will you time er two minutes please?
from the moment this goes into the acid.
you lower it in gently and sloosh it about so that the acid covers the surface.
right, you may troop by that and look down there, notice i wasn't wearing the goggles that was naughty of me wasn't it?
i should have been er while i go and get a turkey feather.
okay, you go and have a look at that covered up.
and try and see if we've got er forming on the lines.
yes.
that's what makes er these chemicals so dangerous, you don't know what they are.
what do you think i've got this for?
sorry, i can't hear you paul.
so that er 
i still can't hear you.
to scrape the zinc off.
to scrape the zinc off?
when it's ?
very good, yes.
that's correct.
as the zinc is eaten away air bubbl er sorry not air bubbles gas bubbles i don't know what gas.
any idea what gas might be being produced?
no i was trying to think it's zinc.
and it's in a basin of hydrogen 
zinc and nitrate.
and it would give off nitrate wouldn't it?
zinc nitrate?
which isn't a gas.
which isn't a gas.
it's a salt.
so perhaps some odd hydrogen is produced as well.
well that sometimes happens when there's 
two minutes?
right.
yeah i think the two minutes is up.
david's timed two minutes.
now when that acid is fresh and hasn't been used before two minutes is usually quite enough for it to have done the job it's supposed to do.
this is an imprecise operation because since the acid has been used i don't know how many times because the temperature, the ambient temperature in the room varies.
in the winter when it's cold it works more slowly now when it's very hot it will, should work more quickly.
er i can't say precisely leave it in the acid for so and so time.
so we always this has always been the case for the four five hundred years that people have been doing etching, so they go by a rule of thumb.
the rule of thumb is this when the first cluster of bubbles is fully formed, sweep them away with a bird's wing feather.
so i have duly swept them away.
which means that the acid can get back in there.
that the air bubble er the gas bubble, i keep saying air bubble, that's wrong.
they are gas bubbles.
the gas bubbles forming along the lines were keeping the acid out of the lines.
so i've swept them away so that the acid can get back in.
when the second set of bubbles is formed it's done.
that's the rule of thumb.
okay?
two formations of bubbles and it's bitten deep enough.
so i suppose that was about two and a half minutes wasn't it?
so i would think that we're working on a five minute schedule .
don't forget that when they first did this, people would not have had personal watches.
and there may only have been one clock in the town where they worked and that would have been on the town hall or the church.
clocks are a very recent er introduction as far as ordinary er working conditions are concerned.
what might have they have had to measure the time as it passed?
egg timer.
sundial.
sundial, yes.
but that might not have been too convenient.
egg timer.
say it was night for instance.
pardon?
one of them sand things.
one of them sand things.
who knows what they're called?
egg timer.
an egg timer is what we use them for now.
do you know what the traditional name for them is?
anybody know?
it's called an hourglass.
have you heard that before?
no.
sir.
you scratched your nose and you've got acid on them gloves.
right.
i did didn't i?
yeah.
but i i should come out in great welts soon and start looking like an american werewolf in london.
right, my face will start falling off.
quite right.
you must be careful not to unconsciously touch anything with even the gloves.
and you should wash the gloves as soon as you've touched the acid.
i should have done that straight away.
well spotted.
i will do it now.
say that again paul, please.
i'm sorry paul, i can't understand you.
something about an extractor?
yes.
yes.
yes.
it might be harmful to your lungs.
it hasn't been used yet.
but it's not er as good as 
well that's what it says it is on the erm on the outside.
orange spot on me notes .
mm?
see what it was.
now it's green.
that means it's been used with copper.
we have a suspicion that very little reaction has taken place because in fact very few bubbles have risen to the surface.
this could be i don't think acid spends itself as it sits in a bottle does it?
no.
it stays the same configuration.
mm.
it's erm if you've used that lots and lots of times it may have used up all the .
it may have exhausted mayn't it?
yeah.
so because it worked last time i used it.
i'm hoping that it has worked this time.
it's been in there much longer than i'd normally leave it.
so, it will either have not worked at all for some obscure reason or it will have worked well and .
so whatever has happened, i'm now going to remove it from the acid.
i'm going to wash it.
lets.
stack them high and sell them cheap.
erm oh we'll they're going to go for twenty p plus cost of the stamped addressed return envelope
yeah.
friend.
which is slightly more than some people do with their money.
erm where are we.
oh yes orders to receive letter box stickers.
erm lisa is that i'm not quite sure, from the york university student rooms, is in to help us with the big box pile up.
and having spoken to her on saturday when she came along to the energy conservation stall i intend to invite her if it's alright with the meeting to our next meeting which is on the ninth of february to discuss how the greens can help how the university greens can help us with that demonstration.
and perhaps forge a link you never know.
so if that's that's approved i'll give that a tick and so we can bring it up again later.
great.
erm i've also received information on conference accommodation and on the billboards but i've billed those as separate items so that you don't listen to me half off all evening.
that's it.
okay.
do we have a treasurer's report in absent here?
no he's absent.
he's .
but i do have something from the membership secretary.
right so that's other officers.
membership secretary.
well the membership secretary, if i can remember how to spell it, erm mm has indeed been in touch with erm john who very kindly sent us a free copy of erm their version of our membership list.
which is how we found out that one that we have a new member erm sally who i'll add on to my list and er send a newsletter to.
also joan ian and mrs green erm we all thought they joined locally and the national party have no record.
it's the same old story.
erm john has suggested that we send their membership on and then that's definitely it.
we're now all up to date and we agree with head office and we can take it from here.
erm one minor alteration on that point.
i've got a membership card for possibly er previous
from january.
sort of yeah from the end of january's er 
you've got six month's free membership don't worry about it.
yeah i wasn't worrying about the six month's free membership.
but it does put in rather six months out of phase with the local membership so at least 
well john sorted that he's brought you up to date now.
mm.
because you know it's the same thing.
i was gonna give the er local party er it'll be sixteen months worth local membership
if you want to give us a donation that's entirely welcome.
perfectly acceptable.
i'll buy some .
i've already bought some 
yeah.
bought some more er
so what joe wanted the meeting to decide is should we ask mark to send off a cheque for those three people?
i think that's the only way to proceed to to sort out this tangle once and for all.
yeah.
you see apart from anything else if those people joined through us then we we must make good .
and we fixed it.
the system's fixed so.
yeah.
it it has to be fixed by either us or the national party.
we can't ask those people for money if they've already joined once.
okay.
erm i'll get mark to send a cheque off when he gets back from .
okay is that oh i suppose as as another officer i can er tell you that the the newsletter has indeed been finished and gone out.
erm i would like to apologize on behalf of myself and my proof reading team for the fact that two calls for nominations that erm that are in this newsletter don't actually appear to have closing dates on them.
oh god.
which is a bit of a stupendous cock-up from us 
at least on my part i'm, if i had my engineer's hat on i'd er blame the proof reading team as well.
but er i suppose really i er
well you forgot to read it because you threw coffee over me.
i suppose the blame is at least almost entirely mine.
if not entirely mine.
so i i would like to ask the meeting whether erm i suppose technically for advice on this topic.
think we can get away with putting out another newsletter on the seventh of february with a ballot in it anyway for these two things even though we didn't 
yes.
i think so.
i i mean er i doubt whether we'll we'll have a full slate in february anyway so i mean they'll probably be the option for people to come in later and we'll probably end up co-opting people later and er i think we should
yeah alright.
i'm pleased you think that because it gets me off the hook now.
i think that because i don't think people wait until the deadline to er respond anyway.
helen?
erm i think technically we're actually constitutional because it doesn't say anything in the constitution about us having to publish the deadline.
it just says that we have to make the the call for nominations so long before we put out the selection ballot.
so they can do it from they can work it out for themselves actually .
briefing.
ah so so it's alright.
so everybody who got the newsletter when they read it should have thought, aha best look up 
i'm sorry 
my copy of the constitution that i filed away so neatly when i received that months ago.
i think perhaps an apology and erm and an in er the next newsletter might be appropriate for.
otherwise we'll phoning us up and complaining .
you'll probably be ringing people up anyway trying to get them to understand.
yes i agree entirely.
i don't think people are going to be disappointed if they miss out .
great.
otherwise i if it's appropriate i'll say it looks like a great newsletter.
yeah.
right on the newsletter front the other thing is the next newsletter we said would go in the post by the seventh of february.
which is actually two days before we next have a meeting which means i'm gonna have to slap another one together in a big hurry.
so i'm collecting things to go in it.
er those things should include well something about the box erm next next day or whatever i can find .
details of about where and when.
i've got a thing from steve about erm planning permission or application for sizewell c that i didn't have room for in this newsletter.
right.
he wrote it and handed it to me for this newsletter and i ran out of space.
could put the green councillors ten reasons to be one in i suppose.
yes 
oh yes definitely .
anything to fit .
it will depend what the space situation is.
a nice grovel can go in.
advert for the letter box sticker. want stuff or is it contact through the office to .
yes.
unless you have unless you have supplied a specific date.
erm if you like i can provide a a specific spiel.
seeing as it is the you know the birthday edition.
it will it is quite nice er make a thing of it.
i think also if we could have some sort of timings when people could turn up.
yes sure.
okay i'll knock those up and i'll have to run that by my household.
mm yeah.
so when do you need those by then?
erm er middle of next week i suppose roughly .
okay.
i would say next meeting is at it's the one time we're going to have one.
erm and do we have anything else to go in this newsletter?
erm
i could keep one in the green eurobonds advert.
yep
yeah.
certainly.
fine idea.
and if anybody thinks of any more diary dates or anything.
yeah i'll let you know.
i think there might be a i've got one announcement you can put from that.
again if i collect more material than i have to use no problem.
got an item on media watch there did anyone notice that the green party was actually mentioned in the guardian today?
no.
quite a celebration.
wow.
about two lines commenting on the government's erm you know growing strategy.
documents that they put out yesterday.
mm the most we've had for months.
i know absolutely.
wow.
first mention i've actually seen in months.
do we put i wonder who statement for that?
that's not mine .
right er well i think i've probably finished apologizing for what i did 
write in the newsletter erm
thank you for getting it out so quick andy 
no problem i'm sure.
in future i'll try both to get the dates that are supposed to be in in there and get the copy into my mouth rather than my compatriots.
okay do we have any other matters arising from the minutes?
because i do.
i've decided that this isn't any other business at all.
i've got a picture of hugh.
have you?
yeah i've got a picture of hugh with one end of a decontaminate poster.
yeah.
because er he was down there er trying to dip his nose in the toxic chemicals.
down at heworth when we were getting er postcards filled in.
our neighbour's looking .
i think you can have a rest after campaign.
erm.
do you know what this is about?
heworth green.
yeah i've read about it.
according to this thing in the paper they er had a hundred and thirty people.
mm.
and er
hundred and thirty!
well that's what is says there .
you could 
quite a lot don't they?
protestors were joined by york mp hugh bailey and city councillors as they gathered at heworth on saturday.
erm i'm surprised that slightly surprised that with council and hugh were willing to go down given what we had given our information about how dangerous or not the site actually is.
that it's not very nice but it's er
i didn't know heworth was gonna be that
yes.
until it mentioned
they're also apparently with ill health and amongst people living in the surrounding area.
whether there's any truth in this is and the a a e who did the er survey include atomic energy authority who who's like that as well.
right okay.
i think we must have missed a briefing from 
must must have done.
might might be the one when you were away.
right well there's a nice er we did get in the paper.
we did.
mm.
right any tasks to carry forward?
well erm steve asked to write letters to to penny .
i don't know whether jean got john to have written to jean or not.
i think he might have done but he didn't say.
erm apart from that i think we've done everything this week.
can you just quick quickly fill me in on what this letter to penny is?
it was about the supporters' campaign in the last 
yeah.
there's an article about erm where is it here somewhere .
it's basically offering people erm rather than becoming members they can become a supporter for five pounds a year of the green party for which they get three shortened up beat newsletters and this week it was two sides of a four.
together with two further appeal letters.
i've just noticed she actually uses the sentence being a green party supporter isn't meant to appeal to everyone.
erm and the meeting felt that it asks it asks for for views from local parties and we felt that the amount of money 
they're gonna make you're gonna spend nearly a fiver sending all that out to people and really we should be encouraging people to be members and not to just give us money from time to time.
and in my own role as as the as being on the editorial board of the newsletter erm we need all the effort that we can going in into that really.
there's some justification for having green link as a separate publication but even that is is under question in the coming twelve months because our circulation just doesn't warrant all of these publications.
there there we can barely sustain green world at the moment.
so erm having an extra network and all of the administration that goes with it seems very much a waste of time especially when it creates another tier of of sort of quasar membership.
funny business.
so er we've gotta sort of 
object.
we don't think this is a very good idea seeing as she's asked.
okay erm can we move on.
conference accommodation and finance.
right erm.
as requested i wrote and asked about self-catering accommodation at the conference and i received a reply saying that there's one house that erm she's come across that she thinks might be particularly suitable for us.
it's a house for for, where are we, for six people.
in other words it sleeps six erm and the landlady's willing to have one person sleeping on the floor officially.
slot more people in appropriate.
erm two single bedrooms and two double bedrooms plus a living room all facilities erm except for sheets and towels.
which we'd have to take.
what no sheep?
no sheep no.
erm it would cost for the four for the four nights of the con conference, that's from the wednesday night to the saturday night inclusive, six pounds a night each will almost cover the cost and we've fitted in an extra person on the floor at three pounds a night that would clear the cost completely.
and she said to let her know straight away if we think it might be suitable.
erm steve and mark and i are definitely interested so that's three people so we're looking for another three people to share.
bearing in mind that if we do have the whole house then people are only coming for a few days or or even one night could no they had somewhere to stay.
erm and along with this we were thinking about ways to subsidize conference for people and this might be one way to do it for the for york green party to pay part of the cost of renting the accommodation.
erm on the understanding that for any green party members that want to use it over the conference.
that's just a proposal it's an idea.
so there you go.
how many people have said that they're going so far?
well er me and steve and mark and you you're going
yeah.
too aren't you?
so that's four of us definitely going to.
erm alison says she'd like to but her you know it depends on this that and the other.
yeah.
i i'm definitely going to i picked this up from the information places.
it's got all a list of all sort of bed and breakfasts and
oh.
holiday flats and things.
and the holiday flats in here are quite expensive.
but bed and breakfast are all very cheap.
erm you know.
where whereabouts is this is it?
i don't know she didn't say.
didn't that's one thing i don't know .
cos if it's two or three miles away it's gonna be a bit of a problem.
yes that's right.
erm i i need to check that.
how how much erm are the b and bs?
well quite cheap.
i mean about ten pound is the cheapest and perhaps even twelve .
the the extra advantage of the of the house would be cooking which we may get.
because if if people took advantage of the of these facilities it would make the whole business an awful lot cheaper for them.
and if there's four of us there definitely then that's we only each have to cook once while we're there.
yeah.
to get out of conference to go to cook.
if it's close.
yeah.
if fact it's it's i found it in the past to be a welcome very welcome break from the atmosphere because you can't hang around in in the dining hall without talking a green party.
as i remember it conference tends to run through until new clients so.
not really.
so long as we're talking about sort of half a mile away ma maximum or with other sort of proper travelling arrangements.
if it's half less than half a mile away then it's it's fine but if not it starts to becoming problematical.
the other thing about financing it.
so i haven't done the sums in my head.
how much is it actually to get a place?
well if it's six pounds for six people that's thirty six pounds a night isn't it?
for four nights
plus three
plus a bit.
so it's about forty quid a night and there's thursday friday saturday sunday.
it's four nights.
so that's that sounds quite a lot to ask the political party
oh i wouldn't ask them to pay 
yeah.
that would be too much.
but it's one way of distributing any money that the party wants to give to subsidize people so that everybody can benefit from it erm rather than means testing.
i'm happy as long as we we get the definite six people definite.
we i think you know we can do go into just four four people .
i i'm quite happy to come in on it.
i think i probably would like a single room though.
are there two single rooms?
two single and two double.
yeah well on a first come first serve basis a single room i'd come in on it .
well strangely enough i think we'll have to have double rooms .
well if if we do only get four people it's going to be more isn't it?
yeah.
it's going to be ten pounds a night each
yes erm.
roughly and you don't get breakfast thrown in.
no that's right.
i i would hope to be able to party conference probably only which would mean turning up either friday night or saturday morning.
so potentially two nights out of the four.
does it have an address helen?
no it's through erm
right i just wondered if she gave you an address cos it you know got a super little town map here.
if i was being cynical i'd volunteer mark's car to get people to and from the town.
if it was a long way out.
well he said that was a possibility but i really so.
but then again .
erm but then it starts getting very very silly.
i mean this is basically she's she already books some flats and house a house because self-catering accommodation's in such short supply because of long lets over the winter.
do we need to proceed on this now.
do we need to see if we can draw up an extra .
i think one of the ideas behind the the party chipping in on this is because it would be extremely convenient for people who are popping in at the last minute for
mm.
for a night or two to have somewhere that they know they can at least kip on the floor.
where you know so as not to have to risk going having to go to an expensive b and b because all the cheap places have gone.
so to a certain extent the idea was to that if we had the thing worked out it would be of great benefit to the people who were popping by.
erm whereas at this stage the four of us could probably find accommodation which wasn't that much more expensive erm but to have the actual focus for the for the local party .
could we have people to pay the six pound a night and erm you know a hundred and forty four to start with and just ask people to pay the six pound a night anyway and just get as much back as we can?
yeah yeah.
cos six pound a night isn't bad.
it's less than we pay in wolverhampton .
oh it's very reasonable yes.
it would be possible i suppose with the commitment of people for the local party to make on the committee.
i mean i have a couple of ideas.
i was going to ask mike if he wants to come as an observer because he's never been to conference and erm
and when it comes
he was talking about spending a weekend with us anyway so it might be nice thing to do.
when it comes to that though there will be people from other green parties who who'll be looking for accommodation so at the last minute we can
dick for example.
yeah.
we're hoping that we'll
if he's coming he might like to be 
to be 
there's a good chance of filling most rooms most nights i would have thought.
well shall i ring joyce back and say providing it's close erm we'll have it and take it from there.
okay.
oh i haven't written .
shall i alert dick to its existence then?
yes i think that would be that would be a nice thing to do.
cos that would be a nice definite.
okay.
i'll make a decision when i'm in a position to .
well this is why it would be a good idea to so people will have to decide in advance and just see how we go for
do you have to send off a deposit or anything?
i'll find out when i ring and she'll .
if i do i'll be ringing round frantically find out what to do .
i would suggest that given the decision we prepared to make now even if you have to send a deposit get the local party to stump up the deposit and collect the money as soon as convenient from the people who are committed to going.
is that agreed with all of you here.
sure mm.
since the local party's going to cover the shortfall anyway if there one.
okay.
she'll be subletting rooms to people.
slum land for the green party .
.
right is that erm.
okay presumably i should put something again in the newsletter about conference and this accommodation thing.
yeah.
yeah it it means that you can point out that it makes it a lot simpler for someone to just pop over for a night and crash out on the floor.
are you coming to conference at all.
no i won't be er my family situation can change so.
oh.
don't have to do things like erm .
we can always run a little creche actually for nanny from scarborough got a baby as well.
give over one of the rooms to people .
when is it?
it's er the first weekend in march.
anyway shall we
okay shall we move on.
do you want to tell us all about the stall for for the energy conservation bill?
certainly.
yeah the stall was extremely successful.
we kicked off at eleven and went on till three and there were i think six people stuffing er in the course of the day bob andy mark and myself and chris .
a late showing from the man himself.
and erm i was particularly pleased to get chris along because he was extremely effective.
erm what we were doing was filling in these these postcards asking mps to turn up on february the fourth to support the energy conservation bill when it has its er second reading in parliament.
and erm it was ex ex it was great having chris along because erm he went out and grabbed everybody in the street, pulled them in onto the stall and er and got them got them to sign on the dotted line so to speak.
er he came along after the the heworth green er demonstration.
which he described incidentally as a bit of a damp .
and they all they all ran away very soon after the press left.
so so he came along and did some work for us.
apart from that erm the scores on the doors forty six postcards were sent out which doesn't sound perhaps like very many but is in fact quite a lot of work when you're having to find people who's who people's mps are for them and so on.
and we were we covered sixteen different mps which is especially good news because hugh bailey normally supports the bill and as far as we know is likely to turn up and and vote for it.
but getting out to mps like erm john prescott the energy spokesperson for the labour party and so on.
and john gummer.
john gummer right yeah.
lots of people who are marginal erm we don't know erm ourselves if if they're intending.
so this might help tip the balance.
and because in with it it's a national campaign.
it's er it's all all to the good.
and so it's keeping up the the good work that's of of lobbying mps to such a degree that they they've got to back it which is what's brought it to its second reading as one of the most popular er private member's bills in history.
erm we received eleven pounds eighty seven in donations.
er the cost of stamps was eight pounds seventy four and therefore our profit 
profit was three pounds thirteen pence .
not bad for somebody who thought it was going to cost us money .
so people gave us money for the stamps that we put on and other people gave us donations.
all round erm it was great.
we had our presence.
it's a very effective direct piece of lobbying and at a time when a lot of people who obviously weren't green party supporters behind the campaign.
the cross party campaign for the for the bill which we've written.
so.
the only political party ever to have two pieces of legislation in the house of commons without having any m ps.
i'd just like to second that it was a good day and also to point out as the er man who made the postcards we shouldn't get too excited about this as a money making scheme.
because most of that three pounds thirteen's probably been paid for out hundreds of sheets of cardboard.
so.
but considering considering we were we were
didn't make a loss.
i held ten fifteen pounds for the privilege.
relation thing.
every time i do a stall i i quake in my boots up until i do it and then i feel great when we're doing it and afterwards realize that it's been productive and we we've had a good lot a good response from the public.
so there we go.
helen do you want to tell us about the next stage?
yes.
seeing as we all filled in our postcards ages ago we can write some more letters this week.
or tomorrow.
i can give you a list of people to to write to.
first of all there's robert atkins m p.
this is the man who erm replaced erm mr yeo
oh yes.
with his trousers down.
now i think erm ron was a bit upset because he spent most of of christmas sending christmas cards and saying, please please let this bill go through don't give it any .
and he said, oh alright then what's your wife like.
erm however
no that's right.
erm tim erm you know having desi have design?resigned he was followed by robert atkins mp for south riddle.
now mr atkins former job is as minister in northern ireland so he's unlikely to know a lot about what was going on in the in the commons at the end of last session which is a bit unfortunate.
he's been hiding under a under an agreement.
he should at least be a very effective man.
well it's important to get his support so that's one person that we can write to to erm seek support.
that's robert atkins m p.
what what 
also 
is his actual title?
sorry to butt in.
he's the secretary of state for energy or minister for energy 
minister yes sure.
secretary of state for the environment wasn't it?
minister for the environment.
it's gummer isn't it?
no i'll come to that in a minute.
oh.
gummer is the secretary of state.
yes.
and he's an expert on all this.
john gummer secretary, oh he sent two postcards to you from his constituents.
erm secretary of state for the environment and robert g hughes who's the environment whip.
but it's important that you get robert g hughes and not robert hughes who is labour mp for aberdeen.
so
aberdeen north i take it?
yeah.
so that's robert g hughes mp for harr 
do you know his his 
harrow east.
he's environment whip.
yeah.
there are more.
right i want 
but i think realistically that's probably enough work for all of us for the rest of the week .
and john gummer was
secretary of state for the environment.
right.
because i've already written to atkins cos that's in the newsletter.
yeah.
so he's secretary of state.
i'm asking the people round the table to write these extra couple of letters because we must be activists because we're here by definition.
and so we're likely to i think if i put the whole list in the newsletter it might have put people off.
yeah.
erm
yes is it all about this any more in the newsletter next newsletter?
no because i think by the end well unless something dramatic happens on the fourth of february which is this friday next friday rather.
if it does i'll be on to you straight on the phone.
but otherwise i i don't expect to need any more work on this for this friday.
yeah.
but we ought to have something about having a second reading in it anyway
oh of course yes.
because it's news.
yes indeed.
even if it's stop press.
probably getting tight for monday the seventh anyway.
brilliant.
on a point of information helen what can happen on on this second reading if
right i can i i can tell you.
erm there'll be a whole a whole day's debate on the bill which is an achievement in itself.
at the end of which a number of things can happen.
firstly the bill can go through on the nod with no note.
this is possible with ballot laws is now ballot bill.
but we can't rely on it.
it's quite possible that some mps will try and talk the bill out.
that is try and ensure that when the house rises at two thirty p m the debate on the bill is still in progress.
and if that happened the bill automatically falls unless we can move the closure of the debate.
now this means that the sponsor of the bill, allan ,brothers,pro proposes that the debate be closed and the bill be given a second reading.
in this case we must not only win the vote but we must have a hundred mps in the house to vote for the closure.
with me so far?
mm.
but not all of those hundred must vote for the must vote for the closure there must be a hundred people there to take part in the vote is that right?
no.
it is no good putting a closure vote by ninety nine to one or even ninety nine to nought.
the objector cunningly doesn't vote.
we must have a hundred mps voting for the closure.
all of it ah right okay.
so we need a hundred present.
which is where on a friday afternoon.
but if if everybody else around the country has been lobbying as hard we have there's a good chance.
after all there's three hundred and three hundred and however many was yes three hundred and sixty mps who supported it.
three hundred and twenty seven put their name to an easy end.
so out of those we should be able to manage a hundred surely.
the other thing is if we're successful with atkins if he's behind the bill the mps are unlikely to talk it out.
they'll accept it and put send it through on the nod if we can get his support.
so he's crucial.
why is the whip so important?
because surely he's just enforcing the minister's policy.
erm yes.
but these people get together.
right.
i mean it's not as if robert atkins making all the decisions.
three hundred people say hang round the bar and say,conservation board i've had lots of letters, well so have i, we'll get get through them they might cause trouble.
that that's the plan.
well go for democracy the decision being you know for the country being taken by three
tories rather than 
well that's right yes rather than one.
well they don't ask john major of course.
. they can tell john major .
so why i'm i'm slightly puzzled as to why robert atkins is actually more important than john selwyn gummer?
i mean
because i'm because john gummer's responsibilities extend a long way into things like housing and stuff as well don't they?
whereas robert atkins has more specific responsibility perhaps for getting this area.
people of one
i don't know that's what i imagine.
people of one of the environment and the other's secretary of state for the environment.
yeah.
fair enough.
it's just bizarre rules of procedure.
there are more ministers of state that there are secretaries of state.
yeah.
to be honest i think we should be grateful they don't have to have the court magician come in
wave their wand and recite the lords prayer.
fair enough.
i assumed there would be a reason assume there was going to be a good reason.
erm so who else was on your list of people we ought to write to
south east cambridgeshire who's the parl parliamentary secretary to john gummer.
who's the sorry your and i can't
sorry.
erm
garry was robert atkins
parliamentary private secretary.
and 
and
and james paice p a i c e 
p a i c e 
yes.
of
mp for south east cambridgeshire and he's p p s to john gummer.
and these people are erm unpaid helpers to ministers and secretaries of state it says here.
unpaid.
so
they're they're the eyes and ears of their boss and they have to report any political pressure so we have to find something for them to report basically.
i i wrote to atkins saying as minister for the environment er, please support the energy conversation bill because it's dead good.
presumably i can also write to john gummer saying is dead good.
am i right to write to the others saying i or should 
oh yeah.
i write to gerry saying say, please prod robert atkins and remind him that the energy conservation bill's dead good in case he's forgotten.
erm no i think the former i think the parliamentary 
but i can write to him in his capacity as robert atkins' parliamentary private secretary.
yes.
cos otherwise it looks like writing to random m ps.
i think you're sort of drawing drawing their attention to the public concern over that sort of phrase.
and widespread cross party support.
yes.
honest guv.
wishy-washy statements for your audience.
i presume getting letters out is more important than high quality prose here is it?
oh yes.
just a couple 
cos i mean 
of lines will do.
name name dropping the supporters i mean for to those tories telling them that the that the association for county councils for example is a backer probably counts more than telling them that that is a backer .
yeah well i think particularly 
or green particularly 
doing their own i just take the letters i've already written to other people change one sentence and change the er name on
that's fine so 
comrade.
printed off on my er employer's er computer and er put it in one of their envelopes and try to steal a stamp from them.
we're gonna get it all down andy don't worry.
how wide is the green party's main bill associated with do you think?
well in the main lobbyist has been ron who's the who's our elected campaigns officers and he's quite literally been spending time treading the the hallowed halls of westminster
i mean in the media.
in the media i mean i haven't seen much about it in the media.
er
well when when it was first read by erm it was mentioned that it had been written by the green party by radio four and the guardian and the independent.
and as far as i know that's the only coverage i've seen personally of it.
well i s i saw an article in erm the green alliance, a fairly shadowy organization , er mentioned in their newsletter.
it was it was erm promoted by the association of conservation of energy.
mhm.
so i rang them up .
but that's yeah i haven't seen much.
yeah it's supported by the 
well no they said they said prepared by er 
oh right.
what is the green alliance?
i don't really know.
i don't know who they get their money from but they.
i mean they used to provide the advisor to various secretaries of state i think didn't they?
ooh 
i don't know who they are really.
they send out this newsletter anyway.
but i mean the main the main i mean in it in certain quarters we've been down playing that aspect of it simply to get it through.
sure.
but er all of the main organizations that have you know world wide and greenpeace and friends of the earth and so on and age concern.
they all know they were all told that it's it's all a bit above board.
but in promoting it to mps we've been drawing their attention to the kinds of organizations which in turn in their eyes just sort of represent that pyramid or structure of votes that .
and of course when it goes through they already have our our as it were 
yeah.
with a bit of luck and careful handling.
and the mps who who asked to put it forward including alan they they had to you know they came to ron to ask, can we put your bill forward.
they all know ron anyway .
he's a very old hand in lobbying er which shows it's how it's we've got it this far.
mm.
because he's known this labyrinth rubbish that they cling to.
okay shall we move on to billboards?
mm.
before we get bogged down.
i haven't received the samples, er oh sorry i i'll moving on to what we're talking about.
the national party are mounting a poster campaign for the elections.
for both elections which hope hopefully covers the euros and the er locals starting at the beginning er towards the end of the local election campaign to running through to the june.
and they said erm if you would like to see the designs write and ask for a sample so we wrote and i haven't actually received any samples yet.
but i have had a letter erm explaining where the billboards are in our area and how much they cost.
it's a very badly written letter actually.
for one thing it starts,dear mrs knightingale which got my back up.
erm and then it goes on to say,please find the enclosed the postal sites available in your area miriam who's the green party person who's organizing it has provided the required areas and if you need any more details please don't hesitate to call me or my secretary.
and under the sites may also availability at the time of booking.
i look forward to hearing from you with your selections .
but introductory letter aside erm interesting.
can i just get clarification here?
yes.
that letter almost sounds like we us around this table are expected to choose some of the sites.
yeah.
we didn't just write for information as to what national parties 
erm well i just wrote miriam and said, i saw your article in green week can you send me further details.
and this is what's happened so.
what it transpires is local parties who are interested enough get what's 
yeah.
get to try and choose site.
right.
erm now then it gives us a erm a price here which i think is weekly.
because the availability columns are weekly so it makes sense that the price means weekly.
erm and it has a number of different types w and f .
but if i run through the addresses i think it'll make sense because everybody will recognize where they are.
erm in york holgate road which is twelve pounds a week.
hundred and ten fishergate which i think is the side of jacksons that's fifteen pounds a week.
erm in fact there's two there.
east parade eighteen pounds a week.
tang hall lane eighteen pounds.
another one at holgate road fifteen erm york road acomb twenty.
walmgate twelve pounds and hull road twelve pounds.
er fulford road eighteen pounds.
presto main street haxby eighteen pounds.
another couple at acomb for twenty pounds and then they also give just a cost for ripon and scarborough.
so i don't know about anybody else but that's cheaper than i expected it to be.
yes absolutely.
and the fact that they're several in fulford that i'd say are very good sites.
i always read them erm when i about fulford .
at fulford road or fishergate would be the best one to go for.
yes.
are these the sort of the like to the end of bus stops?
well from what i can gather the cheaper one on fishergate is a bus stop size one.
there's one actually at the bus stop by the police station and there's another one on the corner of the erm just before you turn into terrace there's there's a free standing one outside the shop there.
and i think the eighteen pound one is probably the big one on the side of jacksons building.
erm actually high up you know full size billboard.
which i'd say is less useful in fact than the little ones.
i think the little ones might noticed.
cos i mean i all whenever i'm going travelling into into york and they've changed that billboard i always look at it.
yeah.
people in cars will notice the big one a lot better .
yeah that's true.
which is our target audience
obviously yes.
wait at bus stops.
right could be a policy decision this couldn't it?
anyway i suppose before we decide we really need to know how much the national party are going to charge us if anything for the actual posters and what the posters look like.
yeah.
and how many posters they what size and shape of posters they're doing which will affect which site of course.
that's right.
no good.
so i'll give 
the erm type thing means what means little codes mean or does that give us any indication as to what these sites are?
no there isn't a key unfortunately.
oh.
i'll tell you now if the poster says labour isn't working i'm not having it.
yeah what which is the nearest one to a conservative club?
cos there's a conservative club down in fishergate isn't there 
they actually own the one on the side of the conservative building i thought.
or they thought they did until it always says conservative propaganda on the sides so i think that's a gonna .
it's it's on a little table at the end which says rate card analysis and it had t v areas yorkshire t v north east t v and then principle main secondary local corner shop other and totals numbers in the middle .
anybody got any suggestions on that ?
will we pay the cost of the poster site?
is this your understand as well as the cost of the poster?
i think so.
well i think what they suggest to me that we have to pay for the poster site.
whether or not the green party then supplies the posters i wouldn't like to say.
right so it's not just that the national party want the people on the ground to choose the nice addresses.
well that's the 
i think it's clear that the money's coming from from the local parties.
what they're ac what they're trying to do is coordinate enough local parties with the same poster that they can make a block booking i would have thought.
this might be a good way of raising funds by asking people particularly for the euros i think.
why don't you sponsor you know, members who don't normally come to meetings, to sponsor erm a site for 
yeah.
i think a lot of people would be willing to do that.
erm make a big splash in the newsletter, please sponsor your your green party poster for the elections.
doing this this is one erm campaign that as a small proportion of the poster sites is it?
it looks that way yeah.
there must be lots of other .
i mean this they must have got my name through miriam so they must already have worked out the they were working
right.
okay are you willing to go away and
yeah i think i need to talk to miriam again don't i.
unfortunately i don't have a phone number i only have an address.
but i'll write her a postcard to say, yes it looks quite interesting when can we see the samples and can you tell us more about how the money works.
yeah and confirm that that isn't a daily price.
i think that i'll have to confirm with the company.
yes.
but it just just seems suspiciously cheap.
that twelve
well i mean it's not the huge massive billboards.
i mean if they're just sort of four foot things i mean it's not you know i think.
yeah perhaps.
anyway that's really into this idea.
especially bob's suggestion of calling for people to sponsor
sponsor
sponsor a poster.
erm should i at least be prepared to again stick something in the newsletter about .
as you say it's the sort of thing that might appeal to people because then they can go and look at their poster.
be photographed next to it.
what do you think?
we could always do posting on the side of the conservative building.
your direct your direct action at home.
yes well come and visit you in prison.
right does that cover billboards?
yep.
no that was a good agenda item just got silly.
okay.
who wanted to talk about affiliation stroke working with other groups?
this is something we said we were going to discuss at a time in the future and i thought i'd stick it on and see how much time we'd got left.
right.
well we've got twenty five minutes at present shall we can you just wipe around a couple of other things and then we'll come back to that if time remains?
yes do.
okay.
right intro leaflet.
do i hear apathy?
or directions?
erm i think neil might benefit from knowing what the intro leaflet is.
right well we call it an intro leaflet because we like misleading agenda items mostly.
what we actually mean is a sort of mini manifesto introduction to the green party booklet sixteen pages or so.
oh yeah it's gone back to being a leaflet it was a booklet last week .
yes yeah.
yes so what we mean is an intro booklet sort of a five sixteen or so pages covering ten or fifteen sort of major green party policy areas.
mm.
er the idea was we'd be able to sell it to people or give it to people depending on whether they had any money or not i suppose by the green party.
if we were really lucky we'd be able to go to conference and try and sell hundreds of them to other green parties who might want to do the same.
so we a number of us went away with lists of topics that we were going to write erm two hundred and fifty or so words about.
and we went away clutching bits of and similar document and things like that.
erm and so far well i'm certainly willing to confess that i took these away full of good intentions and have have so far carried around this torn up copy of the greater london green party for months.
have they not done similar such publications knocking about the green party like catalogues for
well we we had our own local manifesto before and the idea, well in in practical terms it was extremely detailed and erm each rewrite was was a very big exercise and just photocopying er it was an extremely large booklet.
so we thought essentially really we're slimming down our own local manifesto.
right.
where and actually sort of rather than saying this is our manifesto and you know our policy promises it's lacking excitement on our general policy.
it's also generalizing beyond local council issues.
mm.
local manifesto tends to be tied to and attempting to remain more timeless that one or two
yeah more to sort of statements of principles rather than just a policy so it lasts a bit.
and i wrote my section.
i'd just like to make this perfectly clear that i did write a draft for work and leisure.
and i even had added colours on this copy.
yeah and i hope they weren't too harsh.
they were written while i was on a train and probably in a bad mood.
i didn't didn't get the opportunity to explain to you the joke beside behind your writing don't use contractions in written material.
which is perfectly fair comment except that you've used a contraction.
i knew i'd used a contraction you know .
so 
it does say draft actually.
yeah i know.
i use contractions in the newsletter some times which is deliberately honest.
it's like saying avoid cliches like the plague.
i mean i i'd having been these comments and yes there are a couple of extra points put in there i think that that's fine.
it's nice to get some of it done.
what about the rest of you lads?
well as soon as i have a window in my diary which i'm not 
we'll let you off with the newsletter.
contribution it is said.
alright i'll i'll undertake to to come up with something for our next meeting.
i mean all i i didn't i just did exactly what i was told.
i put brought out a list of points.
there's no grammar in there.
there's contractions all over the place because erm and all sorts.
i even used numbers instead of writing them out in full verse.
so erm
you can minute me and i'll erm 
did you use any semicolons?
probably put a split infinitive as well.
well i've got the checking erm.
right so steve is undertaking to be the next brave soldier to write something for 
i don't know what i'm doing.
the general 
we have to be very busy.
i mean this this this item has actually been deferred two meetings and
mm.
yeah.
we'll just been too busy.
then i'll try and get something if i get time but.
okay 
still i suppose the time's it's the actual the calendar's starting to tick for having this isn't it now.
yeah if we're actually ever gonna make use of it we will, joking aside, have to try and get something .
well after after the big box pile up i'm i'm free on the green party.
and then the elections and then get our act together.
i don't think we need to be too sorry at the reason we're not getting it written is we're far too busy lobbying mps and making protests in the centre of town and things.
so it's probably good rather 
on balance.
right.
any other business?
i've got a couple of things.
do we have nominations for conference reps and local election candidates?
because these will need to go in the selection ballot in the newsletter what i am going to write.
oh er you mean from people here?
well
yes?
or i mean the flood of phone calls that have no doubt saved the erm green party .
oh i'd i'd like to be a a delegate at conference but i can't be a candidate this year cos i'm captain of my and i think i'll be a bit busy anyway to be honest doing press work.
it would be nice to have a break from doing it.
right.
anybody wish to be put forward as conference attender?
the number is unlimited is it?
yeah.
yeah.
we have three voting certificates but you can pass them around
it's a shared job.
yeah.
oh might as well then.
you just have to be approved by the that's all.
yeah i'll do that thing.
right so that's got three so far and
i mean i think if you're not sure whether you want whether you'll be able to go i mean you can still you can still be a delegate then if you do go then you're able to vote so.
so you'd like to be put down on the ballot to be approved do you?
doesn't mean you have to go.
just means that if you do go you
right i i that's fine yes i'll
you see it makes it easier for us as well because it means that if you do if you are there we can leave you in charge for ten minutes while
presumably mark will run?
yeah i would think so.
i'll tell him to give you a ring if it's
yeah right i'll put him down with a question mark.
oh it's nice to see people to see a good list of people who are going.
and i could put myself down as in case i get there for a day or two.
and for candidates erm yeah i'll i'll stand i'll have to bite the boys again.
yeah.
talking of standing did did we ever make any progress on fishergate?
we haven't got anybody.
john hasn't come back to us.
no.
erm john said he informed me he he'd stand for monk again and he i told him to write write a .
john 's monk.
presumably in the selection ballot we don't have to
i think we do have
we can have su suggested
but we don't
wards.
but we don't definitely have to sign people.
er so you were clifton.
which is erm bill 
that's clifton.
that's clifton.
i i'm certainly interested i'm quite interested in bishop hill unless anybody else wants it.
erm again i mean i'm happy to give that if there's someone actually living in bishop who wants it but erm i've got erm some someone who lives there wanted me to stand in.
good reason to er.
do you have any
not at this time.
i guess i can stand somewhere.
well that's got the ball rolling.
erm and if anybody runs into anybody else and can ask them or anything if there isn't actually an army of er sort of letters coming through your door saying yes yes make me a candidate.
just to remind everybody that we've decided that this year we weren't going to put pressure on people.
because it just took so much of our energy last time helping people fill in forms and everything.
if people aren't comfortable enough to volunteer.
i mean obviously if for example didn't ring up and say i want to sign your name your name tomorrow, i'd ring her up to see whether she'd lost her mind or something .
because you know she usually does.
she's actually got er terrible flu.
but i'm going round to see her next weekend.
yeah but you know what i mean.
if it's somebody who we really expect to stand then by all means then chase them up.
but i don't want to go around looking for candidates like we did last time.
because it's erm it just takes too much energy away.
right.
and if we haven't got a full slate well i mean looking at that list we're doing quite well.
yeah.
so would you be likely to speak to john saying again wouldn't like to pressure jean again but think john would like to 
i'm sure john would.
erm i shall ring him and ask him make sure he's 
i'll try and ask .
so have we taken a decision to target bishopgate then?
yeah.
it's five for the next five years.
it's quite a commitment.
so we're looking for the ideal candidate.
yep.
this is before anybody gets any ideas at all.
and the the reasons for it is because we're it's the sort of by far the most solid concentration of our our actual members and likely supporters.
i used to live down there towards one part of that.
yeah.
so it's all it's from that time on it's .
i'd like to get that back again if we could.
but we really need a candidate and there isn't anybody erm obvious who's in a position to do it unfortunately.
fishergate this year?
mm.
yes.
yes he does he lives in .
that's in fishergate isn't it?
that's very true.
must be an experienced person.
i don't know cold candidate.
no.
yeah the main difficulty is in is in the time period because it's it's quite likely that i mean i'd we'd been we'd been hoping that the target candidate could put in a reasonable amount of personal commitment to to the campaign.
other and if it wasn't for for me doing a course next year which would probably preclude me from doing that, i'd be quite interested.
but i haven't got i couldn't at this stage say i could do a tap next year.
even the year afterwards may be not.
well shall i ask humphrey whether he's
worth sounding him out.
ask ask him if he'd like to do it.
we'll come back to you if we can't find somebody who's got more time i guess.
okay that sort of covers i think what i need to know for for election stuff.
because we've said we're gonna have a selection ballot.
right.
erm another thing i noted under any other business is green strategy document.
this government one.
i mean this might not be a good time to chat about it.
i it's just that i remember on monday morning hearing on the radio that it was being talked about that afternoon and of course immediately forgot to go and get a copy of the next day's guardian and read about it and all the other
it's today's guardian.
it's today's guardian.
i've got it i've got it at home i can bring it in at the next meeting or whatever.
that would be good.
or drop it into their office.
possibly we could have later event if we'd read 
especially 
about it we could you know five minutes.
well you know i mean you said that they did a couple of lines just to say something about
they both i mean they i think they've released four documents outlining the way in which they're going to meet their commitments and they one of their the guardian gave devoted page six the whole of page six to this.
erm and one of the pieces was sort of comments from various interested parties and the green party got a couple of lines in there after the lib dems and before .
i was still laughing too much from from some comment that the government did one one of their four promises was to was to put pri public transport before private roads.
i nearly cracked up .
john major saying that people will have to accept restrictions on on car usages and it's an amazing thing to come from a tory.
yeah and i i asked the question not too much from the green party point of view as from a personal point view as i i would like to know what my government is saying to do about these things.
i i'd no idea he he'd actually he'd actually said something like like that.
he also said that there's no reason to give up the dream of economic growth but then there you go.
well nobody thinks that.
they don't seem to be doing too well with the the energy of economic growth.
no.
dream more i guess.
no after all the party of economic growth and reduced taxation
yes 
i know i've i've read the publicity material and
i thought you were going to say you voted for them.
i would have had something to say about that.
that's not my party 
they had sir jonathan on the radio the day of the message saying they're long on rhetoric and short of substance .
that was the the overall comment i think that the documents were very very light on detail as you might 
i've was just i heard erm how lord jonathan has just been become become a pier or something.
no it's erm his father died.
it it's not a hereditary title i think but i think he can become a sir if he wants to.
yeah i just i guess i had hoped to be pleasantly surprised that it wasn't rhetoric 
the only coverage i've seen so far is erm is the news and ten of all things.
that we were watching last night.
and the encouraging thing was that they're all things that a few years ago in the green party sort things out they're all there.
absolutely.
for all that the government is making a bit of er er idiot of itself by not embracing the things that it needs to embrace the things it needs to do, at least it's saying that it won't do them.
which is the first step from the process isn't it?
did anyone see panorama erm because er panorama was was almost entirely 
i've got it taped.
devoted to the question of of of road transport and its limitations and erm er although again i mean there was no particular mention to any party other than the government, erm it it certainly seemed to be taking a very critical view of of road transport and it does seem to be spreading now.
it doesn't seem to be er just a few sort of you know any more.
yeah.
certainly keeps them going on the grounds that eventually there will you know we'll be able to say and this is what we believed this long and you know this is what has been proved to be necessary.
so it's
we can already say that i mean there there obviously there's a lot of talk now about erm taxation towards towards resource taxes and those sorts of things which the green party were saying you know fifteen years ago or something.
and now everyone's talking about it and it's in one way it makes you gnash your teeth that that we're not getting the credit yet 
yeah 
but in another way it's gotta be given i suppose.
mm.
one last item for any other business erm i forgot about.
there's a book that goes with names in this campaign.
erm a policy statement like roads to the future which is what reminded me of it.
and the price has gone down it's only five pounds if 
what from twenty five?
yes thirty thirty five.
erm and i was going to say we will get a a boiled down version from with our materials for the campaign.
but i was going to suggest that we order a copy of the book.
certainly.
okay we now have seven and a half minutes on affiliation other groups.
personally i think we might er defer it because that
perhaps we could start with an informal chat on the topic and work up to 
yeah can you give us sort of thirty second briefing on what we're supposed to be developing 
right well it came up when war on want wrote to us and asked us to affiliate and we had a brief chat about it and felt that there are many groups that we could affiliate to.
war on want almost certainly weren't at the top of the list.
erm and then i think it was andy actually who said that erm affiliation is something we could do with considering.
i mean any groups at all and if so which ones.
that it would be useful for us to affiliate to.
what are the implications of affiliating with somebody be questioned by that i don't know the answer to.
it depends sometimes he gets the information sometimes it's basically just registering your your approval with them.
i mean it depends on each organization doesn't it?
sort of two way two way thing you agree or don't agree between yourselves.
i'm in some ways surprised the non-political groups want to affiliate with with the party.
war on want are er for a long time have been the only probably the only erm that put their neck on the block as far as social and environmental aspects of the party go.
but you know i agree with you cos that as a charity.
yeah they seem to have a lot more to loose than we do.
yeah.
there's been a lot of trouble lately a lot of problems haven't they.
war on want didn't they go bankrupt or something.
they did yeah.
there is a possibility that war on want should be considered as being relatively high on our list of people we would be willing to affiliate with.
that's something that not bad at all they do as well so.
so is this was the national war on want who contact us or the local contact?
erm it was a lady who came from leek.
oh.
do we have any feedback from any other local parties or the national party are they recommending it or they only putting out feelers to local parties and ask what what we feel about it?
no.
associated with for example you're party.
oh that's just a mailshot deal.
they quite likely the green party got a free mailshot and their communication returned or or even might have got some money from them you never know.
i thought this sort of thing would be something the green party nationally should decide that whether in principle we ought to affiliate with.
yeah but the advice might not have gone amiss and
yes surprising that war on want aren't asking the national party
yeah.
and instead are mailshotting all the local parties.
i think it may be it may be that they could perhaps get more money if the local parties affiliated separately but 
what about our links formal or informal with other york branches of other 
yeah i mean this is this is erm more the sort of thing that i i had in mind.
yeah.
erm i think i mean we ought to be doing more with the local friends of the earth and local greenpeace i feel.
in the past greenpeace have always rejected us and er on the grounds that in fact we're a political party.
and friends of the earth it's only relatively new it's only been going properly for what two years.
and this could be 
yeah.
we are getting on very well with the student green movements.
both of which are also non-political so that's that's a good step forward.
erm
we've been concentrating a lot maintain the links with the with the university and the st james .
erm a lot of our members who were students in york stay on and and become you know active or in other parts of the country when they move on.
it's very good good erm good thing for the party and they're usually quite starved of practical campaigning ideas and so we regularly try every at least every year to go and do a tour and erm we've been giving them we we're trying to rope them in on the various activities because they're crying out for
poor steve walking into the meeting at st james and there were about twenty people in the room and you said, this is the green meeting isn't it ?
i can't believe it there's too many people.
they're they're both by a fluke at the moment they're both very strong.
they went into a quiet period a few years ago it was very quiet erm but er yes they're they're going strong.
we have informal links or have had er our main contact has just left.
i've been trying to liaise with the save our forests which is and forestry privatization and technically i'm on the committee.
but my other commitments prevent me from turning up to their committee meetings now so erm i'm sort of stepping back on to i'm just on to their mailing list.
but the orig the whole idea behind that was really to to keep the green party's finger on the pulse with that.
get people along get the information networked and also to to maintain a political presence amongst the people who are writing to to or potentially to vote for us.
erm because the the national policy is obviously to target the green movement erm as our natural constituency.
erm and the only way we're going to raise a profile with them is by is by making sure that whenever can we support their actions.
anybody seen this?
can i suggest that we wind up the meeting and er.
yeah thanks for thanks for facilitating andy that's great.
the question that most of today's youngsters seem to ask is what was life like in orkney when you were my age?
well looking back on it now it seems almost a life time away but it's amazing just how well you can remember those far off days.
i don't think that i shall every forget the day when sugar came off the ration and at last we could make toffee.
prior to that the only way that you could get sweets was if you had the necessary ration coupons.
and to this day i shall never be able to understand why so many of my generation, by the time they were in their teens, had a mouthful of dentures because it was not due to eating sweets.
and despite the wartime rationing the general health of the country by the end of world war two had never been better.
however the one dark shadow on our lives in those days was the alarming growth of the number of people with tuberculosis which affected the lungs.
the hospitals were crammed full of the flower of orkney's youth and many coughed and spluttered their way to an early death.
however, the arrival on the scene of wonder drugs developed in britain and america at long last conquered this disease which for decades had struck down young and old.
one of the main carriers of the disease was found to be in milk and that's why today tuberculin tested dairy provide us with our daily pinta.
by the nineteen fifties kirkwall had a new power station at the p d c and already the distribution lines were radiating out from kirkwall to bring mains electricity to the outlying areas of the mainland.
but for many parts of orkney this new service would be years away in reaching them and so the familiar thump thump thump of that diesel statomatic generator filled the air.
hundreds of these lighting plants were bought to light homes and farmsteadings in the mainland and in the islands.
agriculture was beginning to change dramatically as well and after two hurricanes which almost wiped out the flourishing egg industry many farms built more substantial hen houses out of concrete blocks and the poultry were kept inside all the time in what was known as deep litter houses.
it was also discovered that egg production could be boosted by leaving lights on in the houses all night to fool the hens into thinking that it was still daylight.
the biggest breakthrough in the farm came with the arrival on the scene of a small grey tractor called a fergie and it seemed as though almost everybody had at least one and it became the jack of all trades on the farm and implements which had previously been pulled by horses had their shafts removed and couplings were made to fit them behind the tractor.
and when it wasn't working on the farm a transport on the back and a bag of straw to sit on and it became the family's personal transport.
a new motor car was for many a luxury that would have to wait for another day.
because already there was great interest in a new method of growing food for the farm cattle.
it eliminated the need to grow acres of turnips or grain to feed the animals during the long winter months.
apparently this new method had been tried out down south and it seemed ideal for the temperamental orkney climate because you harvested when it was green and then you put it in a pit and packed it with a tractor and then you left it until it turned black and rotted and then you cut it up in chunks and fed it to the cattle.
it was called silage and to the careful orkney farmer it seemed all too good to be true.
however a few were experimenting with this newest innovation and looking around the orkney countryside today well there's hardly a farm that doesn't have a covered silage pit or a grain silo and today the fields are full of barley and oilseed rape and a field of turnips is something of a rare sight these days.
the only horrible memory of the nineteen fifties that even today makes me wince was that teaspoonful of cod liver oil followed by the concentrated orange juice that was spooned on us before leaving for the school in the morning and off you went with your flask of tea and your sandwiches in your school bag.
school meals were only to begin some four years later.
at break time we would all troop down to the village shop for a bottle of garden's lemonade of a bag of what was all the rage in those days, potato crisps.
none of your exotic flavours in those days and the salt i remember came in a small piece of blue paper in the bag.
by the mid-nineteen fifties many orcadians had begun the task of modernizing their homes by building new ones a process which over the past three decades seems to have gone on with ever increasing frenzy.
in those days a new house was usually constructed out of wooden hut sections of which there was a plentiful supply as most of the troops stationed here in the war lived in wooden prefabricated buildings and when they left orkney the buildings were dismantled and then sold.
and even today hut sections can still be bought and despite the fact that they're forty years old the quality of the wood in them is often better than what you can buy today.
once the new house had been built is was often blocked in with a single course of concrete blocks and curiously enough today thirty five years later the modern method of building houses is to construct them all of wood and then surround them with a single course of concrete blocks.
so were we in fact years ahead of our time in house building i wonder.
by the end of the nineteen fifties life in orkney had come full circle and like everyone else we had acquired a taste for the material things in life.
and then on the twenty second of december nineteen fifty eight twentieth century technology arrived with the opening of the b b c television transmitter at nether burton in ham and this electronic window in the world was to influence and change our lives beyond our wildest dreams.
it's quite a while now since i've bored you with a few observations about our friends the dumb animals who share their lives with us on the planet and the more you observe them the more convinced you become that they're anything but dumb.
i recently had an interesting encounter with the honeybee and it only served to point out that regardless of size the degree of intelligence is quite extraordinary.
one bright sunny morning recently i set about painting the front of the house with its yearly coat of white paint to smarten it up.
and i decided to paint one part of the wall which had not been painted before.
unknown to me a honeybee had made a hive in this part of the wall and not long afterwards i became aware of an angry bee searching frantically for the entrance to its hive.
the sudden change of colour on the wall had upset its sense of direction and it buzzed about angrily and eventually it came into the porch where i was sitting and it stayed there for a few minutes and then went outside searching the wall again for the entrance.
and after failing to find it once again it came into the porch and complained loudly and so i went outside and with a paint brush i marked the entrance to the hive with three blobs of paint of a different colour and then with a piece of cardboard i guided the tiny winged creature towards the marks on the wall and it went inside.
a few minutes later it emerged and flew off and then when it returned it looked at the wall and saw the marks and went inside.
ample proof indeed that it had recognized them and it realized that it was the entrance to its home.
another day i observed the antics of a sea bird who had found a small crab in one of those rock pools on the beach below the house.
and after several attempts to break the shell open by picking it up and dropping it onto the rocks, well that didn't work, so the bird picked it up and then from a about a height of twenty feet it dropped it onto the rocks below.
well it must have been a tough old crab because this didn't work either.
and eventually in exasperation the bird flew a short way down the beach and picked up a small stone in its beak and then it returned and it bashed the shell repeatedly until it cracked it open and it was able to get at the contents inside.
so you see human beings are not the only animals capable of using tools to get at their food.
now sheep are animals that we tend to regard as being pretty stupid and most of the time they're timid creatures who will run away at the slightest sound or sight of something strange in their midst.
but at lambing time they take on a total change of character and they can sometimes become very aggressive.
a mother ewe with two lambs in the field behind the house one morning demonstrated her strong maternal instincts when she successful saw off a two year old steer with a series of savage head butts.
eventually this great shambling hulk of a beast turned tailed and fled.
human beings it seems are not the only animals who go in for worshipping idols.
the farm cattle have their gods too and anyone who leaves a car or a tractor and trailer parked in a field of cattle can observe that when such a vehicle appears it produces the most unusual reactions amongst the herd.
and that old theory that animals can't see colours is just not true because any vehicle which is black or red in colour appears to get more attention that any other.
at first it will be surrounded and sniffed and if it appears friendly then a good licking follows and if this is accepted by the stranger then it's usually used for a good old scratch.
and that's why you can expect to find the car in the morning with the windows all covered in saliva and the wing mirrors all bent and the chrome strips on the doors are often with tufts of cow hair.
and if the stranger has pleased the local cattle they will show their gratitude by plastering the sides of the vehicle with a generous dolloping of fresh dung before they depart.
a field of cattle are normally quiet docile creatures and most of the time it's fairly safe to walk through their midst and they will observe your passing with that quiet curiosity.
however the one thing that you must never do is to go between a cow and her calf and i made this mistake one morning and i had to take to my heals and run.
and this started a stampede amongst the rest of the herd and as i advanced down the field with them all in close pursuit i somehow managed to clear a four stranded barbed wire fence like an olympic champion.
so be warned.
like human families the animal and the bird life have a order of seniority or what they call the pecking order and usually the more dominant member of the clan is the oldest.
and at mucklehouse we have brigadier sydney the gander and everybody else is kept firmly in place.
but like most families while father appears to be the boss more often than not it's mother who usually has the last word.
this morning i observed all of them returning home in single file after their dawn patrol around the valley and as usual mother was leading the way with father in the middle keeping the unruly youngsters in hand.
when they reached their favourite bathing spot in the burn below the house they began the slow decent of the steep bank.
however one of the youngsters at the back in his enthusiasm to reach the water tripped and fell over the one in front and this started a chain reaction in the column and the entire orderly procession landed at the bottom in a tangle of webbed feet and flapping wings.
this undignified arrival at the bathing spot started off the most dreadful family squabble and several minutes were to elapse before order was restored.
the more you observe the bird and the animal life you begin to realize that they're not so dump after all and if anything they begin to look and behave more like human beings every day.
does this have to be done writing it down?
yeah
is it an important part of it?
yeah 
you know when you have french
yeah
we'll have to take a, french kids and that talking
oh yeah
that's to do with the norway from english 
yeah, but, there's a thingy on it, they'll be a but it ain't just us school, it's other schools in it as well 
yeah i know, but, they, they'll all, there, the others is two schools is one after another school and we're the only erm boys school and it's not an all girls school doing it, otherwise it ain't 
no, there's more schools than that, cos er the lady said that er, she goes i'm, cos there is when you he went what schools are these?, and so reading out a couple of schools, about four of 'em
and 
no, quite out far they were
she that hotel 
i know 
oh, er 
all what?
the what?
how do you know it's thingy?, how do you know it's for the kids in norway?
she said something about it in school, she goes she wants their names right and their occupation cos say like you go to the butcher shop and then you go to that and the other
yeah
so norwegian they learn in english don't they though
oh yeah oh but, yeah, but, this is gonna be done mostly on the streets in it for us?, so what they gonna learn about that?don't remember when thingy
the last
remember when he hit the first stone and hit that car window
i don't
well this thing weren't it, it was parked up, this was ages
yes
this was two years ago, just before er activities week weren't it?
he goes what 
away and
he found that 
legged it
he meant to hit the car that was going
i know
so silly in he?
he hit the back window and then he didn't do nothing, but then it all shattered 
did the man go up the school?, he never did he?
he did and he thought i grassed, but i never, geezer want your window smashed
yeah
a red light come on the back and when, and then when the and let them go, must of heard it, saw running and he's 
er, he didn't have to pay did he?
no, he 
what happened about it then?
and then andy got enough trouble that year cos he as well didn't he?
i know, he put all the paper up his arm
that was 
how long these tapes for?, like the first seven 
there, then, they're ninety minutes tape
no not first, not all of 'em is it?
yeah, they're t d k ninety they are
yeah, i don't think the other ones are
is that ninety minutes each way?
what?, no it's just, it might be forty five
and i'm gonna go like and leyton orient just scored the goal for this, that and the other it's a big area, and everyone's going what commentator for i said i'm not i'm on the radio
yeah, that'll get nicked off ya
no it won't
that will
i will go what i'll do tomorrow is zip it in my inside pocket there and wire it and all you can see, that's enough really you don't have to ask
who?
does he bunk off a lot peter?
no he don't bunk, he, he has got a lot of things, you know, he orders and that 
see you later 
ah ricky did you see the state of our trainers?er ah richard it's fucked up, just gonna go over there it's alright ricky i'll do rick i can just tear this off, but i like the noise on the thing
you never know
yeah you haven't got, you touch fucking little shit head
what 
shit head, shit head
fuck you
right, oh you don't live on bother, you fucking cheap oh big jim blouse, cheap back and side 
is that enough information
what?
is that enough?
enough what?
you got enough?
eh, i, i was supposed to do well i was suppose to do ten, do you know how many i've done?
no
one side, not even one, one side, i'm doing now 
no, oh rick, rick borrow bikes weren't we?, so how come i done it?
should of put it on your bike
oh what?, what?, bung it on and drop it 
oh i have really, not, what i've done is i've taped one, one whole side and then i taped over it again by mistake
oh 
what did say, she ain't come yet?
what about if she lets us keep the walkman
mm?
what about if she lets us keep the walkman's
yeah, yeah, that'll be wicked
she wouldn't, i know she ain't never do that 
is your tape recording?
yeah
oh no
when a country makes a produc a product, whether it'll be fruit or food or, er clothes and sells them to another country what is that called?
don't look at him, i've written the answer down when a country buys the two, mark take your coat off, give me your walkman, not suppose to bring to school
it's a thing sir 
they make 
animals and crops
okay
hey bud, where you going?
i was supposed to be going home 
example a thousand pound normally two and forty eight pounds, now only forty eight pounds
what?
d'you think it's the wheel of fortune?
well it says it is, it's been
it's a whole page spread from such an established reputable company.
all prices are fully inclusive of double glazing, grade one security p v c delivered .
i don't know.
it doesn't say anywhere there's a guarantee .
cheshire.
i wonder if it's the same address as when we got ours?
well we should have guarantee somewhere in the box there
i mean it's it's, how long is it since it was supposed to have gone bust?
well it's years since i thought it had gone bust
i thought it was about ten years
wasn't there somebody from who got
i can't remember.
when we got that, when we had ours and er they said if you if you found someone else who would like who would have you would get seventy five pounds back and you gave the thing, who was it who was thinking about it?
was it erm what did they call?
isabel?
isabel?
.
wasn't it her?
it might have been, i can't remember
wasn't it just before or after her husband died?
it's been that long i don't know.
her husband died when we were .
it couldn't have been that.
no.
well i phoned shirley and she said she's fine.
i told her off for not let not telling us she was ill and she said no, no i'm fine.
she's got her friend sandy staying with her 
when's gareth back?
he was he was in the house, i didn't speak to him though.
i just spoke to shirley.
erm, sandy's staying with her for a few days.
what else did she say?
did you say about us going down or not?
no, i didn't mention it, at the moment.
she's got sandy staying now 
i asked her about the letter and she said she couldn't remember anything about it but she filled in something when they came back from belfast and she said open it, so i opened it and it's one of these things er if you book to go to dublin before may the whatever, the end of may, then if you went again in the autumn, you you get er fifty pounds worth of vouchers or something, you go half price.
it's one of those con things like they tried
well,
yes,wh why, i mean why would she go to dublin 
dublin 
before.
what else?
and why dublin when i when they were
when they crossed from
when they crossed from northern ireland?
i don't know.
cos they're trying to sell things all the time.
anyway, she doesn't want it.
martin still hasn't got his erm invalidity pension sorted out but he's managing alright at the moment.
he's filled in all the things.
i forgot er i haven't watched the television at all and i forgot to record what d'you call that thing? with the devil in it?
well it was half way through when i came in 
i forgot to i know i forgot to record it for you.
i think i'll go to bed early tonight 
does that rain mean it's off the coast or it's in our area?
and was that minus one just the western side or us as well?
we'll get to know better with the local news after this
oh well, according to that it's cloud.
at least it's a white cloud, not a black one 
did you see your mother?
no but i get a message, will you tell my brother, no don't tell my brother, they said, she said to one of the nurses and they said, your brother?
no, my son.
i said well what did don't you have to tell me?
she said, we're not gonna tell you.
so i didn't get to know what what they didn't have to tell 
oh.
what was she doing tonight?
i don't know 
mostly dry, sunny spells 
mostly dry, sunny spells 
sally was quite intrigued by that 
we'll have to get her a set of books.
there's some bottles, jars, for the bottle bank as well 
you know the last time you the erm, the last time you missed the television pages, television supplement in the out of the mirror.
i don't think they believed me.
and it's erm it'll be twice in a month and chris is back again as our paper boy.
the other one was so useless but according to the er that new manager in the paper shop everyone else got theirs.
so i said i'm sorry but i'm not included in everyone else and he gave me one.
the radio times?
why?
because it's got all the 
ah.
are we staying up all thursday night?
well, it's up to you .
of course, well you could stay in bed all day on friday and i could take the kids to schools and go back
i need to go, i need to go into the co-op and iceland.
what shall i get for your mother?
i'll get some chocolate biscuits i think.
you would think she would put on a lot of weight, wouldn't you?
i don't think she's fat though
i know she doesn't eat that much but what she is eating i everything's sweet.
chocolate
pardon?
well sh i don't know.
.
if anyone offered me a chocolate when i was nursing, yes i would eat it but there was always .
which reminds me, i meant to get weighed this morning before i had my breakfast and i forgot.
remind me tomorrow, before i eat anything.
i think i'd better put some washing in before i go out.
are those ankle boots dry?
what?
achilles tendon
it's better now.
i d on wednesday i did the erm said to me don't do the high heel part if you think it's going to hurt again, you can still have the support under it, but i managed ok.
it didn't hurt.
the pink one's the dish cloth, the little one's the one i wipe up small spills off the floor.
i wonder how bryony is?
what?
i said, i wonder how bryony is?
she wasn't very well yesterday.
every time she got a bump or a knock off one of the others, she was howling instead of clouting them back.
and richard had, i don't think richard's very well either.
i said i don't, well stop running the tap.
i said i don't think richard's very well either.
he cried more than usual.
i wonder what kind of a night trevor had with them on his own?
what do you think of granny jean offering offering again to get martin from school to save trevor walking him home?
i don't know.
i like her.
mhm?
i like her 
i'll just ri rinse my fingers hand cream on my hands.
that was used as er, i can't remember what richard was using it as yesterday
he was poking it 
what're we going to do about these tiles for the step?
to cover this little hole up.
i hate to think what must be down there now.
oh, where're my other glasses?
and they were cheaper than
cheaper?
fenwicks?
cheaper than what you call it, the place in i've got the price 
cheaper than the do it yourself shop up ?
but when can we get through to newcastle?
well i, well i'm on a weeks' holiday aren't i, at easter?
and i've got to go, unless we go to tuesday been to the dentist
which tuesday?
after they break up?
that's right.
which is next friday
yes
so i hope they've sorted out 
the what?lin 
the appeal at the school that mrs was supposed to have let miss white know so she could send it off to the parents to get the money back scanner
you didn't tell me about that
i did tell you
you didn't.
all you told me, hang on, ah 
miss white 
all you told me was that miss white was retiring but i hadn't to tell anyone, which i haven't done, which i don't intend to do
at the beginning of lent, miss white approached me to see what she should do about the appeal
ah ha
as she always does, since i said why send money to great ormond street when there was plenty of children locally?
yes
so i asked if they wanted anything and she said a bed at the cottage hospital
what good's a bed with no extra nurses?
well there are special beds
oh you mean a bed?
you mean a special kind of mattress?
well she just asked about a bed so i told her that
you mean a bed to replace a bed that there already is?
she just said a bed, so i told her there were special beds that we are very useful in fact very necessary in cases and we tend to be short of them
ah ha
and a bed costs two thousand pounds.
there's another one can't remember the name of which costs a lot more
ah ha
something like five thousand .
anyway, i said i'd make enquiries as to what was wanted and i said because there's a new children's ward will open at the hospital and perhaps they would .
so i saw mrs and mrs said they were aiming to raise money for scanner appeal
yes
they're also going to have a obstetric department first time
a what?
obstetric and patients
yes
and that obviously they would be tend to be other children with mother's there so they would need perhaps a play facility there and other children who goes to the e n t clinic can go to the not just go to the outpatients casualty
yes
there's very limited facilities for children to play with.
so, but i also approached mrs earl about a .
anyway, she wanted me to go and see her.
she said there was the scanner appeal, the talk about all sorts of other things that were possible and there's an arts appeal and for arts facilities in hospital and all sorts of things.
so i went back to miss white and said about the scanner appeal and she said that would be she thought that would be the best idea, not the .
i also told here it's the diamond jubilee of the hospital and the children from invited to the hospital that day, that week sorry, it's gonna be a week in june so she wanted to know the details so i asked mrs t would she write to miss white and give her all the details but she thought it would be far better if she went to see her and explain it all.
she was going on wednesday, i hope she went.
hold on, which one was going to see which one?
mrs was going to see miss white 
was going to see miss i see
so then i saw mrs irwin on tuesday when i was in and she came up with all sorts of things that she would like for the new development.
but there's nothing ready, of course.
there's this giant sundial we're going to have in one of the courtyards.
it's a giant one.
it's it's th the building and the blocks of things in in in the in the courtyard that make the time.
so the sun shines bit of the courtyard when it's eight o'clock and that when it's nine o'clock and so forth.
this is just for the courtyard and these shrubs and things
how?
where is it going to be seen from?
i presume it's seen from the wards that're behind looking down into this courtyard.
there's also erm a play area for the children's ward.
there's also some murals on the walls, various artists did murals and of course they've got this grant from for six thousand pound for a exhibition.
a six thousand pound grant for exhibition
well, well, over, over a period it's and other things too but this this set of murals and are involved in it.
and various other art things.
but also there's the thought of th gar a garden and the children keeping the garden up.
but that's a long way and they have transport difficulties to cope from here to the hospital but then i though perhaps, if
i can't see the education committee, with their lack of money, paying for transport for children out here to go to hospital to do a garden 
the the education committee and the school governors have no money at all to pay for that 
i know, i would have thought it was very low priority
well it isn't even a priority, it's nothing, they won't get the money,th they won't pay for walk to go swimming but i thought that now that the has acquired that bus and it's gonna be standing around doing nothing for most of the time and it's a twenty nine seater bus.
i mean, the seats come up so that wheelchairs go in, but in between times it's twenty nine seats
and then you need a p s v licence
but that's that's perhaps easily remedied, if you could get a er a driving licence holder to take them, who, a volunteer driving licence holder, among one of the parents or somebody who could take the children at periodic intervals to visit the hospital to do this sort of thing.
so that was a possibility.
but i haven't seen miss white yet about all these sort of things.
but i did also say to mrs earl that a new head will be appointed to take in posts from first of september and it might be better to discuss it with them after i discussed it with miss white.
i only know one person, i only know one bus driver with children
there's ambulance drivers
and he g he i think their children go to the catholic school.
er, this letter from the multiple sclerosis
yes, it says
it says if you've got wheelchairs in you reduce your number of people.
you're no you're not reducing the size of the bus 
well i think that's crazy 
and someone who's been u just used to driving a car, are they going to be able to drive a huge long bus with no extra tuition?
well
whether it's got sixteen people in it or twenty nine, it doesn't alter the length of the bus 
well, i drive the mini bus at the hospital
i know
which only takes four wheelchairs and of course there's the drivers of the minibus thing at .
i think i i would query that anyway
would you like to get into a vehicle the length of a bus with no extra tuition 
no, no but 
and just drive it
but but i query as well whether, just because you reduce the number of passengers in it, that you don't need a p s v licence or the equivalent, it isn't a p s v licence but it's it's
have looked into that
it sounds doubtful to me, but anyway, there's the insurance point of view, but anyway if people whoa re willing to drive can have experience in driving before they take passengers out.
y'know i didn't drive the minibus until i'd driven it without passengers.
y'know i i drove the minibus with only somebody in with me before i drove it with people in it
did you drive 
oh yes, i drove that, but that was a long time ago that
yeah, but, you drove that one
i drove it to ashington and back
you drove to ashington in it.
erm do you think i could throw these roses out?
they're dead, aren't they?
i'm afraid so
it's a shame
pardon?
they'll they'll have been forced from last sunday, that was the wasn't it?
i know, i know but they were dead by about tuesday.
the yellow one was dead by tuesday.
what a shame, never mind.
right, i'll put my make up on
can you tell me where you want this umbrella tree?
er 
it needs a saucer of course 
well there's a huge saucer on the old one
oh but that's in 
well
plant pot altogether
well, just leave it there for now.
erm, i'm going to put my make up on and think what i need from the shops
it's ten o'clock
i know.
i'll have to hurry up or you'll get no dinner .
oh my head feels .
i do i haven't had a headache like this for
i wanted a carton of live yoghurt.
i don't think the live yoghurt i used was any good because, for a start it was fruit flavoured, no it wasn't it was natural, but it said mild flavoured and i don't think it was the proper like the greek style really live yoghurt that would have started all the fungus growing on it.
it is beginning to look like a proper .
er, ok, i'll go and get ready
i don't think it matters but if the weather's still going to be freezing at night
i know, but it's got the polythene bag round it still.
i've got it standing on that brick to drain.
wish i knew what to do with the other azalea.
some of the erm stems on it look as if as if , not mouldy, but er they're sort of 
well we'll just have to dig it up and put another one in
green 
those hyacinths in the corner are taking a long time to come out, aren't they?
i'd have though the tulip in the coal scuttle, the tulips in the cauldron, i thought they'd had it, they were lying down completely
i know, but they've straightened out
but they've grown up again.
and those forget me nots that're called blue ball and are supposed to have brilliant blue flowers are coming out with tiny pinky purple flowers.
if they're blue, so am i
i wonder if that miniature rose is gonna come up 
the w the one in the tub, no.
oh yeah, the one in the tub looks ok, it's the other one.
i like the other one best as well, it's the peach one.
when're you going to prune them?
well, when i plant that other one where you want it planted, that's
i wonder when er going to have the erm
wheel barrow ready
yes.
oh, it said in yesterday's paper that someone had had a wheelbarrow valued at thirty pounds stolen from her back garden and it was somewhere at , where the back gardens aren't particularly accessible.
so ours must have cost, i'm sure that would cost them a lot more than thirty pounds cos it didn't it didn't say a wrought iron wheelbarrow or anything, it just said a wheelbarrow
well there was er four 
so we'll have to get it
those four tapes incidentally tchaikovsky.
i sold them for fifteen pounds.
what four tapes?
the four tapes sold them for fifteen pounds in
that who sent you?
that shirley and gareth sent me for christmas
oh.
i wish you would think of something you would like for your birthday
i've told you, i want a you need binoculars to go to rome with 
i can't see very well through binoculars
the cistine chapel.
unless we take those big ones with us.
oh jim, they're too heavy
it doesn't need an easier camera, it needs you
what happens with that camera, you've got to rewind it every time.
there's better ones now, automatic rewind, that's what i need.
you have never sat down and read
it's the rewind that's the problem
all the, read all the instructions.
the same with the video camera.
you haven't even watched the tape
when have had an opportunity to watch the tape?
oh, you must have been able to squeeze half an hour some time or other.
anyway, i'm going to get ready or we'll never get the shopping done before you go to work.
anyway 
right, i'm ready.
have you locked the back door?
i thought we were walking.
are we not?
ok.
pardon?
i thought we were walking
well, do you want to walk or do you want to go in the car?
well i have to go to the paper shop
well i'll drop you at the paper shop while i go round
oh, that's a good idea i hope we can get out at the .
have you stuck a poster , you haven't, in the back window
no, i haven't
i think more people see the back coming up that way than they do the front window
yes
but i'll stick one in the back as well 
hope i've got my glasses with me or i can't see the prices.
oh, i haven't got my purse.
oh brilliant.
is that a squashed ball in the road?
that means i haven't got a key to get back in the house .
if you just stop here i'll run over the road.
give me the key please.
thanks.
oh 
the car wants to be 
sorry he didn't look very pleased, did he?
if he was in such a desperate hurry, he could have gone round and gone the other way
we don't usually get a second post on a saturday
you do, you had a parcel
oh yeah.
i've dropped my pen under your seat.
i'll get it when we s unless you, have you got another one?
thanks have you seen kath and rory recently?
no
i've just realised i haven't either.
when i saw that woman crossing the road, i thought it was here.
please let us out someone.
press the button somebody
it wasn't 
oh, thank you kind sir .
it wasn't what?
it wasn't the cars there, it was the cars turning at the end of the road
we need some sugar.
we've had no sugar all this week, not that you've noticed.
i made the custard from er sugar cubes.
i didn't know how old the sugar cubes were.
right.
when we packed up your mother's house.
right then, i'll met you at the co-op 
co=op 
ok
i can't get out any quicker.
see you later.
hello, please, and there was no erm television supplement and no comic in the daily mirror this morning.
that's the second time in the past four weeks we've had missed that 
seventeen
that's three sixty five please
two four five sixty five
thank you
thank you thank you.
you haven't given me the bits missing from the mirror.
well that's erm 
well i'm sorry but my daily mirror was dev delivered this morning without the television supplement and without the comic and i want them
the actual page?
the whole supplement that come on saturdays
that part
that part wasn't in?
this part was not in.
and there's usually a free comic as well, and that wasn't in either.
and that's the second time in the past four weeks that those pieces have been missing from it
well 
no, i don't need the whole paper.
i've got the rest of it.
i canna gi' you one under there though
well you're going to have to because when i pay for a paper, i want it to be complete, so i want that piece and i want th that piece, no wait a minute, where is it?
which is the television?
where does this start?
that's forty change.
thanks a lot.
there we are.
right, so i've got the two pieces that are missing from my paper
well, i've already paid for mine so i'm going to get
well, you'll just have to tell them that it's missing but when i've paid for a newspaper i expect to get all the pieces that i've paid for and i've already paid for mine, so this i'll take.
thank you 
hello 
hello 
hello 
raises a lot of money through sponsorship few people committing money every month.
will it go in?
yeah, i'm sure it will.
thank you
thank you 
they're not really are they, the chinese or oriental dancers?
i don't think so anyway, they seem to be 
a lot of cars at the school this morning.
i parked right on the end of the erm the lane, just 
mm 
in, there was just enough room for me.
mm?
course we were late anyway well not late for john's but 
which way do you go 
when i came back 
into ?
cos you can cut through that 
i turn round and go back, yeah.
mm.
and of course the coach had come up the hill couldn't overtake where i was parked, blocking off the entrance to the lane where i'd just come out of so that the string of cars coming down the road and the first one wanting to turn in and of course the coach had covered it.
oh yeah
it was completely blocked off coach couldn't go backwards because there was cars behind it.
so i gingerly walked down and crept into the car realized that i was the one that had caused all that 
and drove off 
and ignored 
slinked off into the mist.
so he couldn't back back then 
no no that wa that was it, completely stalemate.
big volvo estate was facing if he'd go down there, i can get through and he can come back again and he wasn't gonna do that.
too much brain damage 
there's a big notice at the end of the lane which says 
well he'd come up from totnes this morning.
oh, yeah.
what they usually do is they go up and then back down by the church
yeah.
and turn and go back again.
mm?
it is eight o'clock though 
mm perhaps i'll do some gardening.
did you do away with your or just put a plank over the top?
i put back so and then i put against the fence.
oh alex came in today.
ooh 
yeah
well he's got he's got plenty of money, right?
and er the car arrives i looked all i could see was mother sitting in the car and puffing this smoke puffing out through the window
mm.
and erm in came he'd had a a little tiny switch out of his black and white telly
oh yeah
and he said it's a and the switch won't work.
i said how long have you had this set?
he said ooh about six years, i said yeah and the rest.
i said where did you get it from?
he said well i used to work at i got it from .
i said how long is it since you retired from ?
said ooh it'll be erm eighteen years this year.
yeah.
i said you've bought this since you left ?
well i was trying to find how old it was.
mm 
so he said oh no since i left.
i said well i, i'd still reckon it's about ten years old now.
oh no it's only six years old.
fix the switch on i said you'll never get a new one anyway.
and oh they were talking about rod they was they were saying that, you know, about rod getting married 
yeah?
well i said well how old is rod?
i dunno he said er steve how old's rod?
i said well come on you're his dad, you should know how old he is.
so he went out to the car and asked mother how old is rod?
she says i don't know don't remember having him mind you i remember having him but i don't know i can't remember when it was.
he's thirty something.
hard to put an age on him.
ray was thirty eight 
is he as much as that?
mm.
well it must be ten years ago when he worked for the b b c and that, he must have been in his late twenties then
mm.
so anyway he's he's engaged and it's taken him two years to get engaged so it's gonna take another couple of years to get married.
yeah.
he's still got the m g and it's got three twen twenty three thousand on it now.
it's 
mm 
s reg, got it from new of course,.
and some chap came down from the m g b owners' club and said he'd offer him six thousand for it.
mm
but he said he thought that was price cos he said it's worth at least ten the mileage originally, you know?
mm.
it's absolutely like new.
?
mm?
where did he get it?
he bought it from brand new somewhere,
in devon, yeah.
mm.
he's got a metro at the moment they're driving around in, she drives, she passed her test at sixty eight.
so he's seventy eight now she's probably about the same i think.
mm.
but they had a mini before the metro and er the day they bought the mini they saw an advert in the paper saying that if you buy a mini in the next few days
give you a free colour portable with it.
oh.
of course they didn't get the portable with this, they rang them up, said where's my colour portable said i'll put you on to the manager anyway they had some deal that night that erm to launch this mini mayfair or whatever it was wine and cheese thing so he went to the wine and cheese thing and worried he was gonna kick up a fuss so they gave him a telly anyway .
yeah.
he's a penny pinching old bugger he is, god!
i can't quite imagine 
no.
coming back in a minute.
yeah what about ?
the dust wagon came up to the warehouse today, the usual they'd got halfway to emptying the first dustbin in the back
oh yeah.
and the hydraulic hose on the back of the dustcart broke there was hydraulic fluid all over the
all over the car park.
so the driver said can i use your phone?
he came in and trampling this brake fluid all over the carpet.
he got through to the base camp to find out when the chap was coming to fix it.
five minutes later he came in trying to tell tell us jokes and each time he'd been paddling through this brake fluid and the carpet is just you know, brains
mm.
hand picked for the job i should think.
well we didn't notice the footprints until he'd left.
mm.
yeah of course once they get to know where you are
this is it 
and you don't o do you open weekends?
you don't open saturdays now?
we don't, no.
no.
are you going to?
no we don't.
i dunno, we're thinking about it but, you know it's erm
well if you're doing enough to keep you both happy and keep it
well you see we're a bit further from home now and if we can do it for five days, great, we haven't 
yeah 
got that extra travelling, you know, this is the problem.
yeah, yeah, yeah.
you're looking better for it though.
oh yeah i feel alright, yeah.
yeah.
frankie give me a b g er as i get stuff i'll bring it in to you, alright?
yeah, okay lovely.
well you know you've only gotta give me a ring 
alright 
yeah.
you've only gotta get me, you know i'll be 
picked your cheque up?
yeah it's in there.
yeah.
see you shortly.
thank you very much 
see you 
tata 
see you got a on those, yeah.
bye now.
yes, a little drinkypoohs would certainly help.
and they say it's never been so good!
well this is it isn't it?
mm.
a little improvement certainly wouldn't hurt.
make sure this doesn't kill it stone dead.
yes.
no with these is extra, is, there's on the main board so i think i can get away with just one 
varying degrees is it?
yeah phillips usually put two of these on but right-y-o blast off.
innit?
that's a bit more like it.
cor yeah.
ready 
see those are cheap sets we can probably buy them for about twelve quid apiece couldn't we?
yeah that's right.
you can always get twenty five quid off the trade double your money, quick easy money.
yeah.
that's not a bad is it really?bit of blue perhaps bit more like it innit?
ooh.
cor, fair near jumps out at you.
compared to what it was it's bloody brilliant innit ?
she'll be well pleased with that.
yeah it was a big over to the main you know that 
and had a look at the, the but right, whereabouts down there 
erm 
oh it's down there 
that there 
ah
was really black.
yeah.
that's that actually i'll do i'll do th no i've just been round most of those.
i'll do this end as well i think be on the safe side.
i've been right round the lot anyway so that's jolly good.
over a period of time can you,
yes that's it .
i think some do.
yeah,
did you say it's from out of town this one?
industrial estate she lives down somewhere.
oh this one is?
yeah.
oh.
yeah.
she phoned this morning and i said i can't come and collect it cos i'm here by myself she said oh i'll bring it in, that's alright, no problem but er we're going away to gloucester at two o'clock
oh i see i 
oh i said we'll try and see if we can get it done i says, so 
oh i see.
i said if it doesn't come in at two anyway and i'll lend you something
mm very good.
so 
oh well that's good, right.
otherwise we'll go down 
i think we could let her off this time.
that's er all your overheads paid innit?
that's right, yeah.
i think ian used to sell these things, whatever they are.
yeah that's what i said he said no it didn't come from me he said but i think they did used to sell something like that.
he popped in a couple of times.
his missus earns nineteen grand a year.
pardon?
his missus earns nineteen grand a year at the bank.
cor!
and he gets about, he didn't say what he got but it's over the twenty three thousand drawings that er they're worried about the level of er tax, you know, for the next 
my goodness.
so he must, they must get forty grand a year 
between them, yeah.
well i did a proje projection for the erm guy at nationwide, i said well it's probably gonna be about a hundred and fifty grand turnover and about twenty five to thirty percent clear, you know
ah
net profit.
which is about right i suppose, yeah.
so i said 
i said my share'll be about twenty five grand roughly so he's quite happy with that, yeah.
yeah cos i mean come the winter we'll we won't know ourselves.
we will, i shall have to stop playing golf again.
still it hasn't stopped me yet.
no.
i took erm bank the other day i took hundred quid out
right.
so i mean you would still've got your golf thing out 
oh right 
money out there and i had the hundred quid that 
okay 
that i gave alan so 
oh that's alright then.
we're all straight.
no we seem to be s 
wages cos we've been giving ourselves under wages over the last 
that's true, yeah it's all worked itself out hasn't it
really.
i took the two videos off the shelf and re-boxed them and as soon as 
oh yeah 
come back i'll put on the shelf.
no my friend's in the trade i said they're basically working but they've got a halt on somewhere because they've come back you'll have to sort out the you've got but er they're only one ten 
yeah.
i think they both actually probably work it's just they couldn't figure out the programming on them.
you know?
yes.
yeah.
i mean if i'd had the money 
i think so.
first did it, you know and er
yeah.
and jim, when he comes in, they're both, they're both all, i've pr priced them up on the top and er 
oh they're done are they?
yeah.
oh you
yeah that's, that that's 
yeah they cured that fault, yeah.
yeah, that was the springs off.
that was the springs off
oh that was the springs off
heads clean, that was the belt that was gone
oh yeah 
plasticine.
set back in the inside?
yeah.
but i told him about the telly that it's a bit beyond redemption.
mainly for where it's lived for the last three or four years i think.
well yeah.
if your person don't have the er over there, i think gary's helping out this week, he might 
well i can always ring bob and er confirm that.
oh it was bob weren't it?
yeah.
and then if he don't want it then 
dee dee dee dee dee dee dee dee 
thanks very much ta ta council.
yeah?
that's very nice of them.
yeah well we, we couldn't push for a new 
no, no
i was just happy to 
well yeah it's 
you're recording now are you?
yes, i've gotta
well you've got to get, get something on haven't you?
gotta get these tapes filled up.
how many tapes have you got to fill up?
there's twenty tapes altogether but 
there's no way i can fill up twenty tapes.
i don't speak that much 
no should have had one in the bedroom last night with next door upstairs.
my god she was making a racket.
was she?
cor!
grunting and groaning 
really?
oh that sort of a racket yeah.
yeah that sort of a racket, oh dear.
well next door but one are having erm double glazed back window, you know that main lounge window and the the guy's parked halfway across the drive with the van, left it there all in disarray you can just about get your car up and round and brains that some of these people 
no.
hmm neat little telly innit?
yeah, it's er it's only 
not working?
it's only frame collapse.
oh well done then.
service switch ah!
hang on that's interesting 
yeah 
if the worst comes to the worst dave's found a place where we can get new tyres for about twenty five quid each for the m g.
oh yeah.
he's still trying to find some he's phoned a bloke in plymouth see if he can get them.
that's a nice tyre we got for the erm caravan for ten quid.
it's er
would be nice cos they look ni we had on the other white m g and they're a nice 
yeah 
.
the other one's all arrived over safely and the bloke's driven it and he's all happy with it
oh good.
and waiting for his next one to come 
oh marvellous.
er
is he selling them over there?
no he's keeping them for just fun cars for himself, he's just got the money to burn over there 
marvellous
so he's only, he's got a one of the new b m w seven three five that er no the big merc, a big new merc through that's right, not the the latest merc so he says er er he's a bit disappointed with the brakes on the m g but dave said they were a phenomenal brake for an m g he said 
yes.
compare it against the latest merc 
that's right.
he's all 
i expect 
he's all been paid all his money and 
mm but it's good in a way that he's got his money because he can sort of, sort of finance ours
well yeah he is, he's got a little bit anyway 
till we, yeah yeah, i should imagine he is.
quite a few bits and pieces.
it's getting kevin in to finish it off.
i phoned kevin, i've got kevin's mum and dad's phone number off dave and phoned at home but he's gone out for the day or something they said.
but he's got to strip the bonnet so dave said well i'll get my lad to strip the bonnet this afternoon and er you know,few hundred quid for the day we'll be glad to be able to finish off doing them and he's got too many 
yeah cos you haven't been able to 
to play with really er we c to clear ten we've still got two and a half grand left
have we?
and so there's twelve and a half grand we're owed
yeah yeah 
so if he charges, you know, fifteen hundred for his bit and then another grand to finish it off we're still clearing ten, you know,
oh well that's good then.
we might even clear a little bit more than ten but 
bit more than ten, yeah.
i mean if he charges two and a half i wouldn't be disappointed cos it's been in his garage, he's pushed everything along and he's always so
yeah, oh and he's been pretty reasonable hasn't he?
we're all going out for a drink with yourselves i think.
good.
that sounds like a good idea.
me, i don't drink.
no don't drink any more 
not at this moment.
starts tonight dunnit?
it was funny 
i'll see if he can arrange the old erm 
the guy's er filling out the form for the er mortgage and he's er said non-smoker?
yeah, yeah and lynette yeah non-smoker, you know.
when we got outside i said i couldn't very well offer him one i only had two left in the packet 
that makes quite a difference on your policy, the premium 
yeah 
if you're non-smokers.
she laughed, she thought it was hilarious.
it's not my day really earlier today i had to admit to being grateful to john gummer now i'm gonna have to be.
i know it's terrible isn't it i never thought i'd say that.
now i'm gonna have to say i'm gonna be grateful to mr it's a really bad day.
no i am grateful to mr because he's finally crystallised in my mind something that's been bugging me the longer i stay on this council about exactly what the tories see their role here as and it's now very clear to me, more than ever and that is that if you want to be obstructive and negative and if you go on long enough being obstructive and negative what you can end up doing is that you'll find yourself eventually in a position going on long enough that you can make totally meaningless speeches but at least you'll get nice headlines in the paper and that seems to me the whole essence of the tory strategy.
when my colleague to my right here, roger and myself put forward a motion at last council on this issue ably led by our glorious leader to my left i would like to say that we've set up.
now what i would like to say is that we've made clear that we're with certain very clear objectives in pushing forward, in saying that certain things had to be achieved and when i read the lilac piece of paper or whatever colour we want to call it.
i see a set of conclusions that achieve almost everything that was demanded at that time and i am grateful to everybody concerned who's actually sat down and actually really thought about what we're trying to do and everybody has made some compromise here and i shall certainly support this amendment and i shall make the compromise because the one thing in here that i thought was necessary that isn't there is the statement that there will be a head of centre and having actually worked in a project, head of sorry, head of project and having actually worked in a situation where i was a joint manager erm in the long run i think people will see the the wisdom of of a single head of project.
but that's up fo that's up to people experience t t t t to conclude.
but the main there 'ere is, we haven't actually changed our position we have actually stated clearly that we wanted to achieve something, we wanted to make sure that what was being provided in that community was the best best thing possible within the resources available and that things developed on this amendment takes us that way forward and we are at least being clear to our principles rather than just being negatively obstructive.
mr 
thanks chair.
i just like to start off by saying and just reminding the council well in particular mr in light of what he said that he doesn't understand what mr is on about, well he's never understood the issue of the merger in highfields.
mr has made more publicity on this issue than any other councillor.
i think there's no issue in his patch that he might want to talk about.
but he's made national headlines local and every other headlines that comes about regarding this issue of the merger.
but i think in seconding this motion i think it's a way forward and i think it's better late than never i think what it talks about that we would not be here today mr chairman if this would have been agreed by what was put by the officers two and half years ago.
it's not a federated system, it actually, positively talks about moving forward as professor states it in the economical situation the council is in.
it talks about one budget covering for the two centres and it also talks about two heads of centres which is more practicable and more rational than any other s situation that would have been if the merger decision would have stayed.
there has never been an argument put by anyone to convince myself or people who have protested against the merger, a rational argument has never been put against what people have said that the merger is a rational way forward.
i think it would have been a disaster and a recipe for disaster because practically if you know what the situation is in the moat centre and the highfields youth and community centre then people would have never resisted to that change.
i'm not saying that people would have never changed their ideas but if it would have been done in the manner that it would have been done in in the first place and if people would have been told about their future lives and if people had been, would've accepted what was going on in light of all the decisions that have been taken previously regarding the merger issue.
i think these proposals not only are a way forward but also in light of what is actually happening in the area of highfields with er the high numbers of unemployment, with the high rate of people underachieving in education i think for the last two and a half years there has been no clear guidelines or structure that has systematically brought about any results in the two centres to move forward where people have lost out by this issue being bureaucratic and a political football that's being kicked about and i think it's about time where we now have cross party consensus that we move positively forward and work towards these proposals.
i mean in so i i come here today with a petition that i presented that also talks about proposing to abolish the merger, i mean this is a move just one step away from that but i still feel in what was proposed at the last full council meeting and i would express my views to the officers that in light of what has been suggested today is actually implemented to the wording as it stands because the joint working party that had been er written up previously never did meet although if i can inform it was only the officers who actually met up and i hope that in light of all the working group and the two heads of centres covering for each other would be implicitly applied.
in light of er 
near time 
all the consultation that also talks about in this paper is met with the two centres, the management committee of highfields youth and commune centre and also the users of the moat centre and i think in light of everything that's gone on i think it's substantially a success to stand here and say that we have at least achieved some result and i i formally would welcome the libs supporting this this afternoon and i'm grateful for the turn that the libs have made and in light of er what er mr the involvement mr has put in.
time time time now please.
thank you.
thanks chair.
mr do you wish the right of reply.
no it's mr 
mr 
not really chair .
i'm mean we've discussed it often but i i would be grateful if we could 
it's mr i'd hate to stop mr in full cry
okay then chairman i i would er recommend that we support the amendment moved by mr .
right, those in favour.
welcome back.
right, this week an army lieutenant was jailed for fifteen months after a court martial heard him plead guilty to seven charges relating to bullying and humiliating new recruits.
the sentence on the staffordshire regiment officer is subject to confirmation but the question we're asking is how often are other recruits subject to bullying and intimidation?
brigadier, how often?
well of course i can't possibly give you any figure of how often, but bullying occasionally happens in the army.
and may i say very clearly and unequivocally at the outset, that it is abhorrent when it does happen to us because there's no place for it, quite simply because er it is counterproductive to cohesion, and cohesion is the basis for operational effectiveness, and when there is an incident of bullying then we very promptly and thoroughly investigate it, and that investigation is followed, if there's a case to be brought, by a trial of the chap that's guilty.
and may i say also
please do.
that we're well aware of the fact that when we're doing this, of course there's usually a degree of adverse publicity.
that is subordinate to the business of routing out the cancer where it occurs.
from you than the statement you've just made er and i think you'll be you used the word abhorrent, i think you'll be abhorred by some of the er stories you're about to hear.
if i can come to you andrew , you were in the royal highland fl fusiliers, what 
that's correct.
happened to you?
basically the full time i was in basic training and when i went to the regimental the royal highl fusiliers regiment the first battalion, i was physically beaten and mentally tortured er into the same bargain.
well what do you mean by mentally tortured?
well they can physically do it to you with use of fists, use of hands and whatever else they've got and they can mentally do it to you like put you in jail that or all sorts of things like when i was on sick leave, they came and lifted me.
right well t t tell me about the physical abuse, what sort of things were they doing to you andrew.
beat ya up.
n c os, noncommissioned officers beat ya up, and a above them as well.
you get 
so 
in a battle camp, you're supposed to be learning how to fight in a war and basically they beat ya up, and in camp as well, it happens in camp too.
and did did you see th w was it widespread, did you see it happening to other people?
it's very widespread.
actually i witnessed a guy being raped in the army.
that was by that was by normal recruits but it still happens it, actually the the bullying goes down the line.
the n c os bully, the officers bully the n c os, the n c os bully the privates and the privates bully the privates.
it goes down the line, all the way down the line.
it's a nons it's a non 
if you're bullied, you bully somebody else 
aye.
and so on and so on?
let me just get back that was abhorrent as a word w has already been used and er should be used again by what you said, you saw s somebody being raped by two soldiers.
did you try and help that particular soldier?
i did, i did, i s actually put a stop to it.
that's 
so that was a brave thing to do?
i wouldn't say it was brave it was a normal thing to do, wasn't brave, there was nothing brave about that.
was just a normal thing to do 
you'd expect yeah y you'd expect somebody to do that for you of course.
of course i would.
did you find wh when you were being bullied or when other people were being physically intimidated that other soldiers would help them or would they just stand by and let it happen?
basically you'd er just stand back and ha actually in my platoon of fifty men it happened to me more than it happened to anybody else because i came from glasgow.
oh he's a glasgow hard man let's get him.
i came from a rough area so that's the way it worked.
so they find your particular weakness, your achilles heel and th they'd go for that.
brigadier, evidently and we've heard lots and lots of these stories, and you've said you think it's the occasional example but you're doing all you can to stamp it out, but evidently the army is a haven for bullies, sadists and rapists.
well it's not of course, that's absolute rubbish and of the cases that we'll have here tonight, each of them if they are true are very very er unfortunate indeed,an and i wouldn't condone any of them if they're true.
the fact is of course that what we're seeing here is a tiny minority of people, and i could bring thousands of people here tonight who've been in the services, thousands of parents of those people who've been in the services, who would give you a very very different story.
so i think we should get it in perspective.
we're seeing just a few cases and i don't deny the fact that occasionally there are bullies in the army.
but there's certainly not a haven for bullies or no nor is it endemic in any way at all.
well some people would claim it is endemic.
some people would actually claim that there is a culture of bullying within the military infrastructure.
but let's t let's t 
well i would deny that 
well let's talk let's talk to richard .
richard er er h these are occasional examples and they're very very rare.
i would disagree with that.
i would disagree with that a lot.
well what's your experience?
well erm apart from my own experience erm i witnessed, i couldn't even m er name as many erm instance of bullying that went on in my regiment erm and for all different kinds of reasons you know.
erm in my regiment i was in
you were in the grenadier guards?
i mean i was the on i was the only black guy in the regiment erm for a very long time and erm you know it didn't it doesn't matter what colour you are erm apart from my case, there was if you was erm if you were slow on your runs or you wasn't good at at cleaning your kit you would get bullied.
and it was severe bullying.
and it wasn't a case of just a few beatings and that 
it was just disgusting stuff you know.
what sort of stuff?
well i mean there was an incidence where erm maybe a guy who didn't clean himself very often they would er a whole group of guys would find it funny to take him into the toilet erm fill a bath up with half with water, put bleach in it erm excrete in it, urinate in it and put him in hit, hit him with ba erm brushes, all kinds of stuff like that.
let's let's make it clear.
are these occasional examples that you're 
they weren't occasional at all, not in my regiment, no.
and this was in training as well.
but is this not something you just have to put up with if you join the army?
it's it's part of the toughening up process .
no i do no, that's rubbish.
i don't who said that but that's rubbish.
that i it doesn't toughen you up at all.
it doesn't toughen you up, it just turns you into a bag of nerves basically.
aha.
you've got two choices, you either stay and you take it or you leave.
if you leave, you get caught, you get put in jail.
if you leave do you feel you've lost?
i mean there is a school of thought that 
yeah.
says if you can't take how would you be able to handle the front line .
if you leave, if you leave let's say if you get caught and sent back then you're gonna get back you know twice as much as you had for the reason for leaving.
have you learnt anything from the experience?
yeah i've learnt a lot basically, i've learnt erm erm basically what sort of organization that is and those other ones i could mention as well which run along the same sort of lines erm i've learnt to look after myself
has it toughened you up?
yeah it has.
so some people might say perhaps perversely that it th it has achieved its desired effect, it's toughened you up .
i think that depends on the individual.
well david lightbown i mean er the brigadier said that these are very very occasional examples but from these stories that these gentlemen are telling us, and who are we to disbelieve them,the they make their claims, this is a very very serious problem in the army.
perhaps some sensitivity is n needed for our young recruits, perhaps a a type of counselling is needed to help them?
would you agree with that?
no i don't.
erm i go along with the brigadier on this, i don't approve of any of the things i've heard this evening, and i don't believe that that is the normal course of action in the army.
i've been a soldier myself, i was a soldier a long long time ago and er er training was different in my day to what it is today.
but i also have one of the largest training regiments in my constituency, and i see that unit erm in action a couple of times a year if if no more.
now by and large it's a tough game being a soldier.
and the difference between being tough and responding rapidly to instruction and discipline and bullying is something that er you have to denote er i in this discussion tonight .
right fair enough, that's er that's a very fair point but is being thrown in a bath er full of excreta, bleach and urine part of the toughening process ?
no it's not it's qu it's quite disgraceful and nobody would approve of that and the co th th th th the army if they got hold of anybody on that basis, they would court martial them immediately and they'd be very severely dealt with .
that yeah can i answer that 
andrew.
now you would court martial them well i put it to the s i b
s i b what's that?
that's the special investigation branch .
special investigation branch.
all the allegations i made, all the beatings i took, i'm bleeding they investigated nothing, and what the brigadier said, the brigadier is talking nonsense.
he knows that the army is w widespread in the army and he .
it's like everything else you company commander, you tell him, he throws it out the window.
he sends you away make you feel happy 
do you know i've served in the army for thirty three years and i've commanded every thing at every level in the infantry which both these gentlemen have been in, from a platoon right up now to a brig er brigade and i can honestly tell you that i haven't seen more than a couple of incidents of bullying in the whole of that time .
you're a commissioned officer 
the point is the point is that's that's a good point what you've said you don't see it.
that's the whole point.
you come at a barrack room as an officer
mm.
or a corp it doesn't matter,
mhm.
you'll see it.
with rank on your arm
yeah.
the soldiers i that room will act a different way 
i i agree.
when the door shuts 
i understand that.
a different way again 
they will .
i can understand that , i can understand that.
but it's a matter leadership.
and leadership in the army is some 
leadership has got nothing to do with it whatsoever.
leadership 
it's just a case of it's just a case of a few individuals or people with rank who think they've go so much power they're gonna press people
yes i'm sorry to hear that people in rank in your particular case were involved 
yeah well we've got a job to do if you're a soldier you've got a job to do okay, you've got a bit of training, you've got a job to do
right absolutely
yeah you don't need no distractions, and bullying and bullying 
i quite agree, i quite agree 
and racism and all that,distractions 
i quite agree 
and if you're gonna send people to northern ireland and places like that you want 'em to defend the next soldier?
well c could i just come in?
but they do.
david lightbown yes david lightbown .
andrew i'll let you back in.
in a minute,in a minute.
i i certainly didn't go in in in in with a rank on my shoulder, i went in as a recruit.
but you said 
but when i when i when i trained as recruit i trained with a lot of other er lot of other people .
but that was in different days, this is nineteen ni 
there was no easy way out in my day you w yo y 
one second andrew, i'll come to you in a sec 
you were fetched in and you did your national service.
now when you did 
this national service you served your country for a set period of time.
i actually did three years of that that period of time in in in the army.
the majority of people that went through that service all had some recollection of things they didn't enjoy very much but they by and large thoroughly enjoyed their experience in the army, it livened them up, it made them better men and we have got after all one of the best armies if not the best army in the world, it's got to come from 
i don't think that's 
somewhere and it has to come from the training.
alright andrew briefly briefly.
go on.
basically i don't disagree with you, aye we have got the best army and i loved my i loved my time in the army but i'm totally against the way i was treated in the army.
that doesn't there's when you're off duty it's great but when you're on duty it's different.
the army's made me a lot better person.
i'm a i totally disagree 
you had a you you you were unfortunate in the way you were treated 
with you in the way it is run when you when i took my allegations to him because that's basically what they're saying it is i know it's no allegations 
let's not go into the specifics of the court case just now david lightbown, what i want to say to you, do you think it's a case, some people might perhaps unjustifiably but they still would say that those people who are bullied are bullied because they are nonconformists and in the military one has to conform and many people
well of course of course they do.
it's what our the army's all about.
so if in any way you're different, if you're black or if you're short or if in any way you're different, you're fair game for the bullies perhaps?
it's not whether you're black or white, it's not whether you're pink or green, it's how you respond to orders.
and how quickly you respond to orders situations .
did you not respond to orders richard richard?
it's not a case of black and white did you say?
no.
it is, it was a case it was a case with me that i was black or white and that's why that's why it hit the press like it did.
look, look you're you're you're a guy that's been through a lot.
i accept that.
yeah, yeah.
but you survived it.
and you will go on surviving it, you will turn 
why should i have to survive it?my country too you know,
i know it's your country too.
and nobody no no nobody nobody is saying that you were tr 
i was told when i was in my regiment i was told my country, it wasn't my country that was what i was told.
nobody is saying that 
david lightbown 
you were treated correctly,badly treated .
david lightbown, david lightbown .
survivor 
david lightbown one second.
now er w w with every respect, to say that he survived it is something of a crass statement, because i remember reading about him thinking isn't this country getting good that we can have a black guardsman, and i remember my own disappointment when i read that he had to leave the regiment.
let's speak to er tim er .
now tim er, you were a soldier now you're a social worker.
we heard earlier on about this this this regimental bath i think they call it, this bath of excreta and urine and bleach and the brigadier and david lightbown said how rare this was, er did you ever see it?
certainly to the extent that er richard has experienced it, no.
but it was a fairly common way of getting people who perhaps wasn't up to standard or whatever, other recruits would grab them, and as he's described take them into the bathroom ,
throw them into a bath filled with whatever they chose to erm
so it's a fairly common occurrence?
it happened certainly two or three times during my training.
in your own training you saw it?
mhm.
er the so-called regimental bath.
now there's another case here we've heard of er of racism, and i mean racism is the pretext very often for for bullying and bruta brutality and intimidation.
and er er paul your stepbrother er he died while he was with his regiment.
what happened to him?
yes my brother er joined the army about two years ago until he took his own life earlier on this summer.
erm he started his life er in vietnam in the violence of vietnam, and had therefore a lot of violence in his early life, which i think really stayed with him, but when he did join the army, he was very proud to be doing so, and very proud to be wanting to be part of britain and serving britain in whatever way he could.
and a i would say that actually during the early period in the army, i think he probably gave as good as he got.
i mean it was tough, life was tough for him and i know that he faced quite a lot of comments both of racist and other other things .
he was vietnamese presumably the comments were of a racist nature ?
yes er yes that's right.
and and he took quite a lot of them but in the time that 
name calling?
oh all of that, name calling and and quite a bit more.
but during that time when things were going well, he managed it.
i think the thing that worries me most is that later on, he didn't manage it too well, a lot of other things were going wrong in his life, and at that point the name calling continued, and the stuff that maybe wasn't so hurtful early on seemed to become very hurtful then.
and my main concern and complaint is that the army, with its its emphasis on being macho, on being strong, on being okay, doesn't allow people to have their own weaknesses and in 's case, i just wish somebody somewhere in authority had spotted that he was a lad in trouble.
but if you do have pe people will say if you do h have those weaknesses and if er there were times that he could was quite up to the joshing and the name calling, there were times when he wasn't, the very fact that there were times when he wasn't, doesn't that tell you that perhaps the army wasn't the place for him?
well i don't know about that because i don't think that anybody stays the same all the way through their life, and i don't think there's anybody in life that's strong in every circumstance.
i believe everybody at some point needs support.
now one of the problems is in the army, that if you do need support, it's a sign of weakness, it's a sign of failure, it's almost impossible for you to get the kind of counselling and help that a lot of young lads need, and i think that a lot of young people in the army today who maybe have got a lot of worries in their soul, and they don't have the courage at the moment or the possibility of getting that help because of the army culture.
sergeant major , you've been in the army for about nigh on twenty years now, do you think that a soldier has to be able to cope with that sort of taunting and name calling when he's on the streets of belfast for example.
when a soldier goes to belfast, he is abused,verbally abused
yeah
on the streets, he has to react or or react in a manner that erm really when he's on there, he doesn't he doesn't react to that particular incident that's happening in front of him.
he he must be taught that and he's taught that through his training.
discipline.
does that yeah does th that mean that if he's say h he's taunted about his race he sh he should just turn the other cheek and have a stiff upper lip?
yes.
i do.
if i was on the streets of ireland now, and i've been there many occasions and someone said to me, look at that welsh get there, i would just have to take it.
and i do take it and i have taken it
and i just get on with my job.
but that's 
it's a lot easier it's a lot easier to say that .
richard, richard if you w if you were on the streets of belfast for example goodness only knows what they would say to you, just because you're british and they'd use the pretext that you're black to to really throw horrendous insults at you.
let me tell you, let me tell you one incident er in northern ireland.
erm we was on patrol, we was going somewhere, we passed er a big factory wall, on the way back er a day later, on the wall was, go home british wog.
what am i meant to do with that?
did you though er feel yeah go on, brigadier.
er i'd just like to say something actually to to put this in context because this dis discussion which suggests that there's a lot of this goes on, i don't believe that an army that's got bullying as an endemic thing would be able carry out its role in the gulf, in the falklands, in bosnia now
that's right
in the way it has done, and furthermore, every year there's a survey taken in this country, where we look across the country at the public service and we ask people in the community what they think of their public services.
year after year we come out with a satisfaction rating of over eighty per cent.
now the community doesn't feel that we're a load of bullies, the community doesn't feel that we're not doing our job properly and i think that's very very important.
well robert here a a barrister, i'll just get the microphone over here, you're a barrister and you've prosecuted quite a lot of, you've been in the army yourself and prosecuted a lot of cases, now h he says that er that the british public love the army, but from what we're hearing tonight, there's a lot that's rotten to the core?
well well can i take issue with the brigadier on one point.
it's true to say that very few cases come to court martial.
but it's the nature of the offence as such that if a soldier is bullied, he's unlikely if he wants to stay in the army, to bring it to the attention of the authorities, because he know that afterwards he has then to live with the people who he's complained about.
and if he does bring it to the attention of the authorities, the problem then arises that in many cases, and i've seen it in my experience, he will be dissuaded
yeah.
from taking the matter further.
that does happen.
how, because 
we we heard there from r richard and andrew, it's a hierarchical bullying as well.
i i'm sure that's right, i'm sure that's right.
can i just say one thing about andrew's point about the s i b.
in my experience the s i b when they receive these sort of complaints do investigate them very thoroughly, and i'm surprised at his experience.
but the problem is the lower level at that,i i i it's at the n c o level where complaints are made by soldiers and because the complaint has to be made through the regiment, then the the pressure is for the soldier to withdraw his complaint .
rea really brief so how widespread is it in the army, bullying or intimidation?
how how can we tell, because as an officer, and this is this is richard's point, as an officer how do you know what goes on in the barrack room?
nicky can i have a word ?
with wa andrew i've got somebody else to speak to.
if i 
okay.
get a chance i'll come back to you.
er where's james ?
james.
now you're on the run from the army at the moment?
mm.
er why did you run away?
er mental torture, i just couldn't handle it no more.
what were they doing to you?
er i was handcuffed to a radiator in the nude and urinated on.
i was tied into a sleeping bag and hung upside down from a tree overnight.
er
why did they pick on you do you think andrew, er james ?
my size.
yeah.
and you know
did you s did you te did you say for god's sake stop doing this to me?
did you try and stop them, did you try and make them see reason?
th there was no point, the chain of command to make a complaint was blocked.
there was just no way.
did you see this happening to other people?
yeah.
what sort of things were they doing to other people?
erm two people back to back with their trousers round their ankles, newspaper shoved up their backside, lit in the middle, first one to move got a kicking.
and is this common?
or were these just a few isolated sadists ?
yeah, no this happens a lot.
brigadier, life is er hard enough in the army when you're being toughened up for the sort of rigours you have to face on the streets of belfast for example 
that's just inhuman.
i couldn't agree more, that offends decency and of course there is a distinction, a complete distinction between toughness of training and in the infantry in particular it's very tough, and bullying.
but i'd just like to just go back to pick up something that the the lawyer, the barrister said.
and that is that
pick that up briefly then we wanna talk about james again .
very quickly.
because of course we're looking at the importance of bringing this on right from the time that a man joins as a recruit, and i realize that's when they're very vulnerable indeed, they're unfit probably, they're nervous, they're not a team yet, and we've developed all sorts of things.
for example, we now brief recruits on their rights and tell them and encourage them to actually come forward with their complaints, we very carefully brief and select our n c os, we have open days for parents, we bring parents in so that they can feel part of the set up right from the start and so that their sons join the army and they tell their other friends to make sure they do to.
we've introduced women's royal volunteer service people, outside the chain of command so that young soldiers can go along and speak to them
and you deal yourself with new recruits and so forth as a sort of p r man, you you deal with new recruits?
i personally don't deal with recruits but there's as you know there's a depot which er
sure.
so what are the army saying 
and this is where it really matters and really counts, what are the army saying to new recruits who might be going into the careers' office, army careers' office tomorrow,
mhm.
what are they gonna be saying to those new recruits about the dangers of bullying?
they're not gonna be saying anything about the dangers of bullying in the recruiting office .
well that's that's shocking.
from what we've heard tonight.
well i don't think it is because you're again you're back to the line that everyone is bullying and i don't believe that everyone is bullying.
i i don't i don't i don't have any more time, we're just gonna have to leave it on that very er worrying note, but thanks all very much for taking part.
thank you.
mm.
and thank you for phoning in.
thank you stephen from leicestershire, he says that he has seen people tied to posts and set on fire.
it's terrible.
erm anonymous, my son joined the paras five years ago and he was bullied, and another anonymous person from rugby, my two children were in the army and though they weren't bullied they did see horrific things happening to other lads.
ian from earlsbury, i spent fourteen years in the air force,bull bullying has always gone on but only when soldiers didn't conform.
and someone who's and ex-military policeman called to say, a lot of bullying does go undetected, but i if it was left to the royal military police, bullying would decrease.
and darren from stoke on trent was in the forces for three years and he didn't see any bullying at all.
well after the break, you can buy them, this is one of them, for as little as twenty five pounds, elton john's been wearing something altogether more expensive at the high court this week but does it look much better?
will you see the join when you join us?
and men in wigs, next.
for a while i was in the air force and then i lived in various parts of the country.
but coming back to live in like to call it, er in nineteen seventy five.
and i know perfectly well that there's no way that er i could get my wife to move out of the town, she loves it.
and so so indeed do i.
anyhow, er this evening very happy to provide a few pictures for you to have a look at, and hopefully with a bit of information.
if there's anything you want to er er to ask me about, please don't hesitate to er to butt in at any time.
erm can you all reasonably see what er what's going on?
right this is er merely a map erm where we're dealing with er local people.
it's er it's not so necessary probably er as where at times i've given talks in various parts of the country on on this area.
er but erm this gives an idea of the railway lines that er well basically were in this area, erm i suppose er still round about nineteen fifty sixty time.
some of them had er already gone.
but that's that's er basically what was was around.
and of course er the nottingham, lincoln y lincoln line here.
the er main east coast main line over here.
the er mass of lines in the nottingham area, and so on.
and that is a real subject in itself, and i think you've probably had john talking to you.
have you not?
er john's erm quite a whiz on that one.
erm anyhow, this evening, i'm proposing to just merely cover this particular area, particularly.
erm and then just coming along here and er as far as and and just coming back to there.
erm let's have a look and see what we can we've got.
erm well as many of you know the first one of the first things that you see, if you're c approaching the town from from the a six one two, from er .
or from , er is that building, which is the old crossing keeper's house or cottage.
erm it has been altered somewhat since the original er railway days, but nevertheless it retains quite a bit of the old character erm and er the high pitched roofs erm and the .
interestingly, of different styles on that.
it's not such an attractive house as the station master's house, but nevertheless er it is one of only two railway buildings now left er in this town.
and of course as many of you will know, the railway line er used to run just in front, here.
there's another picture of it, as one er goes past on the road.
and again.
very steeply pitched roof.
now if you want to go and have a look at the other oth the oth other building, at er railway er the railway, erm going down road, er again a pointer to that one time this er town did have er a railway, er is of course the arms.
i think that's they've altered that, they've put a porch over there haven't they, since er i took that one.
er but er that was very much the local, er in victorian times.
er for the er the station.
there again erm i think there's still on the windows here, there's still reference to one of the coal merchants i think isn't there?
have a look anyhow.
erm looking across from the arms, one can see that, what i can only describe as a delightful bit of architecture, erm perhaps i'm a little bit er of a philistine, but er i think it's one of the nicest, most attractive buildings in the town.
erm you know i like georgian and i like a lot of other architecture but that i think has got tremendous character.
er and of course was the old station master's er house.
the erm well let's see, again the steeply pitched roof, the er the chimney's, er the barge-boards, the finials, er and the er angled fencing, which was characteristic of the railway er post about nineteen o seven.
and also the railway used it and er it was used elsewhere, and it's interesting this, i noticed that erm b r have recently erected er er this type of fencing er which is adds insult to injury possibly, on the at er .
er but i you know it's rather nice actually.
erm anyhow, that was the sort of site er a few years ago.
see it's very very attractive, the erm stonework and so on and the slate roofs.
and er er it didn't used to be erm white barge-boarding, er nor white erm fencing.
but nevertheless i think it looks very attractive in that way.
just note the er the entrance round there in the in the hedge, er from the new building nearby.
there's another picture of it where er this was er about five or six years ago this was taken, and you can see there, going along to the end of the er of this fencing, the post there which was one of the er of the posts er to which the gates, the crossing gates were attached.
there you have a brick wall.
now once upon a time, there was a railway.
looking back you can see the riverside erm and basically just er here was the railway, and the entrance to the goods yard, er coal offices etcetera, or at least one of the entrances, was on that side.
coming back to look at this erm er, as i say, very attractive building, again, and you can see there's still a bit of work there.
and er to go back and you can see it here.
nice lamp and as i say, these er the barge-boarding.
excellent erm brickwork as well, just just proud there.
now you can see here, again, we've still got er some gateposts.
that actually is a a railway gate post unless they've changed it, which i don't think they have.
on that one was taken a little bit earlier, you can see they certainly had one of the old er gates there.
and looking up that er driveway er now they've got that house there,you can see er what the view is, say up that entrance.
and there again, much the same.
and just take note of that.
and that's what it looked like in nineteen seventy seven.
er one had the gateway, cobbled stone, approach to the railway station.
terrible shame in my opinion that that building was demolished, allowed to go to wrack and ruin, er and then then demolished.
there you have the er individual walkway th along there, and the entrance along here er up the yard.
the old sort of double erm er goods shed.
er and er vehicles would go down, it drops down inside there, and there's planking er at obviously, level erm on either side er of this arch er this erm er wide way er through to the bottom.
and i'll show you a bit more in a little while.
there is another picture, taken on a different day, showing, again in about nineteen seventy eight.
seventy seven seventy eight, the remains of quite a substantial goods shed, for a relatively small place.
now i daresay most of you know that, really the population of or , was pretty static in the er well from eighteen fifty to about nineteen fifty, or even nineteen sixty.
erm round about three and a quarter thousand.
very little change.
they had er seventeen or nineteen pubs, i can never quite remember.
er for that population.
er and er of course a number were closed in the er early part of this century, and more er coming along.
we've still got about ten or eleven i think, haven't we?
erm really the railway was closed in nineteen fifty nine, for passenger traffic.
just about the time that dougie started er building substantially in the town and doubled to population to its present six and a half thousand or so.
er whether or not it would have survived, i i wouldn't know.
anyhow that as i say, was the er goods shed.
er that erm was in use er as i say until the closure.
now there's a picture of the station, and you can see that we've got the post, the cobbled entrance, on this on the left hand side was the station master's house, the garden.
you'll notice that the the erm fencing is vertical.
erm and that was normal practice until the early part of the century, about nineteen o seven i think it was that the started using the er forty five degree angles, style.
but er er vegetable garden, and the lot.
there's over here there's er a passenger station.
four wheeled coaches er in here.
some goods er wagons on that side, erm lovely ladies in the long dresses and so on.
er on this right hand side you've got erm various advertisements for er belfast and northern ireland and er and sort of er away days and and so on.
erm various signals.
the main er sort of booking place, er waiting rooms and so on.
er normal practice for the railway was to have the main er part of the buildings on the town side, and you got a er smaller building on the other side of the tracks over there.
there's er part of the er goods shed over there.
and we've got lamp house, er signal box and the white gate and er woodwork there.
now that er merely shows that that is a cattle dock.
a lot of quite a lot o cattle traffic in those days, agriculture and cattle traffic, and the normal practice er in certainly in the last century, er to avoid disease, was to use a lime wash.
er they didn't have the er the normal erm antiseptic washes, which sort of came in later on.
er brothers of were manufacturers of sheep dips and various disinfectants.
and of course as i say those those were around, but erm the reason that is all white, is that it was erm er when the cattle had been got out of the way, they er whacked a fair amount of of lime wash all over things er to er to kill any any nasties there.
erm here you have a handsome cab.
and that cab you'll see in other photographs we've got.
erm that plied to the 's head hotel.
er and again, you'll see on one of the 's photographs i've got, it shows, just to the right hand side as you're looking at the front of the main archway, erm it had the legend, railway, parcels receiving office.
so if you wanted to er send parcels via the railway, anywhere in the country, then you could take your parcels into er the 's head er sort of office there, erm and they were ferried down here.
you didn't actually have to come down er with er to the station to .
erm a number of er sort of billboards up here, various signals, erm lamps.
quite an interesting picture er and for anybody who is interested in sort of modelling this scene,get is right, er that's a very very valuable photograph.
erm it's off a er an ordinary postcard that was produced many many years ago,quite common.
erm round about nineteen o five i think that was.
now as you let's have a look at er the track layout of the place.
erm want to run to about half past eight or 
we'll see how we go.
erm coming in from er on the a six one two from , er we've come to over the level crossing there.
now this is a er an ordinance survey map of about nineteen fifteen.
and at that time, single track over that level crossing erm and the track became double as one went up past about close, isn't it now, over here?
erm 's meadow, close, erm and er then we've got the double track runs into the station up here, past the cattle pens which you saw those white things on the photograph, various signal posts, the goods shed, there, erm an engine shed, a small engine shed which was built to accommodate, normally only one loco.
erm and a little siding by the er track to accommodate erm a loco which was largely used for er coaling purposes, of the locomotive.
and and on the er here you've got erm siding with that that erm circular object is called a wagon turntable.
and goods wagons that needed to be unloaded, er would be brought into, er at least unloaded erm er perhaps for the distribution of items in the town, would be brought onto that turntable erm and normally horse, purely a horse hook would be er put on er and swung round, and the wagon, or the wagons, a couple of wagons perhaps, would be taken at right angles into that er goods shed for unloading.
and the there was there was a central say walkway or carriageway down the middle there.
er well not quite central, erm and the er s wooden staging inside the goods shed, er was at wagon height.
so the er the items could be loa unloaded straight out of their packages and and whatever.
erm there was also an interesting erm stubby bit of railway track there.
perhaps if i move on i think we've perhaps got one a little bit bigger.
oh no.
erm i'll go back a minute.
er there's another little stubby bit of track there, and that er provided er what was termed end loading facilities, er so that erm er in the old days er the sort of lord of the manor er would have a er horse a horses and carriage.
erm and er they had what they call carriage trucks, which were er flat trucks basically, or thereabouts.
which could be attached to passenger trains, and the er the actual er gentleman's carriage, er horse-drawn carriage, could be loaded onto this flat truck, and er the er would be transported to be available er at his destin in his or her destination.
erm and er it was er it was a ramp basically, er up here, so that one could run straight off that ramp, onto this flat truck.
and that's a that's one of the what that was used for.
erm as you i say, initially er it was a single track into the station, over crossing.
and erm in between the wars, erm it was made double track, er up towards over there.
by just merely putting in an additional point, or turnout, here, er to er to make that say double track.
that's er well that's all there.
that's a er map i acquired off the water board
i think from somewhere.
. erm the slightly larger erm engine shed here as i say.
erm cattle pens, goods shed, the main station building here, the erm station master's house here.
a signal box, the platforms on both sides, the smaller building on the north side of the station.
erm a weighed a weighing machine, a weighing office over here, and coal offices were situated there.
erm i will give a little bit of history of dates, and what things were altered and when in a bit.
erm the the railway track, erm once it was extended through to and i say i'll give you the details on that in a minute, erm went over the er road, and then the track that was nearest to er the town, was curved in and joined that other line erm and er went off to to .
and there's a book on engine sheds, and er engine sheds, which was published some years ago i think by publishing company, er which gives track plans to help people.
but looked at a er at any ordinance survey map, they'd have seen that they got the track plan wrong.
erm that is that is what it should be.
erm some additional sidings,mills over here, some additional sidings were put in, in the early part of this century, and they came off the this track erm just this side of on the left hand side of the level crossing, erm and went er up to a dead end er just along in the right hand side, er over now towards where factory is.
erm or bakery.
and then er they returned the line, or double track round here, er and bringing so goods wagons could be brought round into the sort of unloading area er of 's mill.
of course 's was a very important customer of the of the railway.
now let's give a little bit of er of information.
the er there were many railways erm were contemplated in the eighteen thirties and forties and beyond.
and erm the er there was a nottingham, lincoln and hull line i think, proposed in eighteen thirty.
erm but this line involving ,, er was actually er part of a much bigger scheme that was put forward about eighteen forty, and really involved er a line from near cross to , on to , on to , and then up to and connecting .
basically sort of cutting across country, about twenty eight miles i think it was.
er as an original project.
erm the er in eighteen thirty nine, the the railway came to nottingham, er from derby, and er there were three companies, the , the er railway i think it was, and the er railway or er sorry railway.
and they amalgamated in eighteen forty four to become the railway.
and er a certain
george known as the railway king was very keen to to get er across into to lincoln and certainly in various other parts of east anglia, to sort of spike other people's guns and to erm er to obtain the traffic for his own er benefit, and for his shareholder's benefit perhaps.
erm and erm the railway, er opened the nottingham, newark, lincoln railway line in eighteen forty six.
he whole thing was built in a year, quite incredible.
in in those days.
erm because it crossed the trent quite a number of times, and quite a number of trestle er wooden bridges were involved in that construction.
but the whole lot was done and opened i think it was er in august, eighteen forty six.
and one of the say one of the proposals was that there should be this er line from , and through this town, and over to join the er nottingham, lincoln line er at .
what was built in eighteen forty seven, and opened in eighteen forty seven, was merely a small branch line, of two and a half, three miles, from this town, to , where it say er er made a er a connection and and a small junction there.
there was no station actually at at that time.
erm the station was opened er and trains began to run in eighteen forty seven.
but very quickly it was er all all the promises of much traffic.
say the town had only got three and a bit thousand people anyhow, three thousand people, erm there was very very little actual passenger traffic.
er even in the early eighteen well late eighteen forties, early eighteen fifties.
and after a matter of a couple of years of use, er the service had already been curtailed, from nine trains down to five per day, erm and er shortly the passenger service was completely withdrawn.
or at least it was withdrawn as far as er railway engines were concerned.
they did in fact get a horse erm and er they had a small carriage, er and er a horse made the odd er visit up the line, from time to time.
er but erm the so the railway line erm still carried a little bit of er of freight traffic, but erm it wasn't quite abandoned, but even some of the er station buildings were removed erm to er to .
so that's that's really what happened, and it wasn't until eighteen sixty, or eighteen fifty eight, fifty nine in time, that the railway directors agreed to reopen this branch line, as they'd been basically promised a lot more traffic.
erm it was still pretty marginal er but er at least it was opened and erm in eighteen er it carried on until, in eighteen seventy, seventy one, the line was extended back to or a station roughly halfway between the two.
then er through to erm , and on to.
in those days there wasn't a great deal of of mining, i mean wasn't open, and er there was a tremendous amount, well there's a fair amount of of traffic agricultural traffic, and i mean one had to accept that virtually everything came in, all coal, road stone, erm goods required er for well 's who were going at the time, they er they used the railway.
erm and the various er food s food stores er again, virtually everything came in.
and of course in due course er time er the town had a gas station, erm or a gas, not a gas station, erm er a gas works .
erm and so again coal was was brought in erm for that.
erm anyhow so that is sort of the background.
and the railway er it operated, i suppose, pretty marginally, certainly for the rest of er last century.
erm in nineteen o two i think it was, i've got the details at home, erm sidings were put in for 's.
they paid a bit and the railway paid a bit.
and the idea here was that one would be for incoming goods, and one would be for empty wagons or the other way round, er going out.
erm and of course the the wagons as i say would would come up right along side that er road.
now that's a picture which er many of you will be very familiar of with.
erm and it shows it's er just about the turn of the century that is.
and er there you have a a s a signal.
erm the level crossing gates here, 's mill on the left hand side, erm a er sort of lean to er over the erm sort of loading bay, or unloading bay there.
erm a typical er signal box and a rather pretty little station master's house, there.
and that i say that picture has appeared on everything, even on china, i think you can buy some at erm can't you even with that on it.
it's a very very well known photograph.
again, about the turn of the century, erm looking up towards .
the track across here, the crossing gates.
er signal box there, the er lower quadrant signal here.
there's a round spot on the back which was used before they had er a white er sort of a black erm stripe, er vertical stripe erm on the er on it there.
you can see at the back here, erm a barrow crossing, er which could be used er to get erm heavy items on a on a wheelbarrow, or trolley, over the tracks er from the platforms.
erm various lamps, the station b main station building, the s the subsidiary station building there.
er in the background there's the engine shed, erm and a few er one or two, there's a loco there i think.
erm one or two bits and pieces anyhow.
and on the right hand side, there's the goods shed.
erm in nineteen fourteen, erm 's, who had a water turbine er as their sort of main motive power for their er milling operations, erm put in or had had, er not only this line, siding, but they had one put in round the back here, erm because that was to provide coal, for steam boilers which were er put in to augment the water power.
erm that later on, the signal box that used to be here was moved over to the other side, that's all that's there for.
and er that shows it later on when that one at the back had been taken out.
now erm last century er goods came up er the trent to er and er by sailing barge er and er this sort of equipment was used to er to collect er items from the holds of these er barges, erm put on wagons, horse-drawn er and er some steam traction engines, er to be transported around.
there's another picture of one of the barges on the trent.
a steam one.
now the great er as you can see that is a just pre-first world war advertisement from 's.
and erm so they were quite major users of the railway services and indeed, i think that there was at least one clerk, from the railway, employed in 's offices, all day, every day at some time.
there's a picture of er er flour, going out from 's mill er latter part of er last century, erm going out to 's bakery in the town.
a steam lorry that acquired, in the er early part of the century.
erm obviously er no erm pneumatic tyres or anything on that but er quite er good old wo work horses they were.
no that was er that's a picture of er 's erm er i think before they took that off they've taken that off haven't they now?
erm that was when er it had just been erm, well before they started erm altering it into flats, and so on.
but you can see that in fact the railway line came round and in front actually just in in the front here.
and there used to be a a lean to just there.
that doorway is still there.
c c eighteen sixty seven, charles .
er it's not the date the place was built, it's the date it er the last time that that particular area was erm rebuilt.
they had a number of fires over the years at 's mill, er and one was in eighteen sixty six or sixty seven.
erm and er that rebuilding was the was when erm that part of the job was er was done.
there's a picture that i obtained from actually ruth who was who was a miss .
erm and it shows it's the twenty i think it's the twenty second or twenty third i've got it at home, er of october nineteen fourteen, this.
erm and it's the the livery of the first full load of coal, into round the back of the er 's mill, erm and there's there's fifteen eight ton railway wagons there, full of coal, just erm coming.
and it's an twelve twenty seven, railway, m r on the front as as standard.
and er bit misty, but that's looking out from the signal box, you can just, possibly just about make out there, and at the back erm the er er with the the erm station master's house etcetera.
er that was taken out i say in in due course,
but erm er i think that er that picture i borrowed, i mean with her permission of course, erm and er i think it was hung up in the bathroom or somewhere, which was not the best place for a photograph to be really.
and so i took with i say with her blessing, took a er a picture of it for posterity.
. erm that's a er rather nice picture, erm which has never been published, not at the moment anyhow.
erm and it was one that erm er mr gave me, many years ago when i was involved with the cricket club, about nineteen seventy seven i think it was.
he knew i was interested in railways and his grand grandfather i think, or uncle was er photographer of the town.
and this was a photograph erm taken from the roof of the engine shed.
and about er i'd guess about nineteen nineteen.
nineteen twenty perhaps.
and you're looking up towards .
i don't know why i'm not really using this er this pointer.
well perhaps cos you can't see it.
erm the er arms over there.
the cattle dock here.
er a loading gauge just here, to ensure that er anything coming out of that er er that had been loaded in the goods shed was not erm overloaded, and likely to hit tunnels and bridges and so on.
there's the wagon turntable, that we mentioned.
that end loading er and ramp at er the end.
that's a er that's a railway horsebox there.
erm and the line running into the goods shed there.
erm you've got er fire buckets on the end.
er a warning not to trespass or something,careful about that.
erm o a barrow crossing er between platforms there.
there's a engine or carriage co er couple of carriages in there.
the gates are shut over there.
signal box there.
er the er station master's house, the line disappearing off towards over there.
erm 's mill along here, and actually, you can actually just see there's a wagon there which says, l b s c.
now that's london, brighton and south coast.
what on earth's that doing there?
er but er maybe it was erm collecting or delivering a load or something.
er there you have the weighbridge.
er or weigh office, and again pretty little building, er the steeply pitched roof, the barge- boarding on it, erm and er multi-coloured er brick, there's a sort of whitish brick with erm er sort of pinkish er brick work er put in to er b by way of decoration.
and again you've got the same sort of thing.
that's the coal er th the the coal offices.
there were three, well there we were in fact four coal merchants in the in the town.
there was er 's, erm 's who were probably the biggest, samuel 's, erm 's and s.
erm i think that 's had gone out of the coal merchanting business erm probably by nineteen twenty or earlier, i think.
i haven't been able to trace anything er later than that.
there you've got er a line of coal wagons, and so that's those'll be coming that is a more sort of general merchandise wagons which would be parked in there, loaded or unloaded, erm er shunted across the lines and er into that goods yard, goods shed for er loading and so on.
erm lamps, kerosene, wicks and all the rest of it would be kept there.
gentlemen's toilet, there.
erm and the driveway, er over there.
and again as i say it's rather a nice erm picture which erm er was given to me some time ago.
a close up really, just showing you er more detail on er that wagon turntable, the buffer stops, rail built buffer stops, or just across there, fire buckets.
erm and er there's the er loading gauge and there of course is the whitewashed erm cattle dock.
er and er so there's the goods shed and the er door, the wooden door to provide excess er trucks into there.
er another picture i say really just erm closer up, erm and giving perhaps better detail.
you can see the er the pattern of the darker brickworks.
there's the sort of pinkish bricks.
and again you can see the barge-boarding erm and rather attractive roof designs, er which er reflect er the rest of the architecture.
some of the some of the railways were very very functional, not and didn't bother too much about er what places looked like.
railway was.
er they perhaps spent too much money that way, but to be fair, the railway was the biggest well the railway er on amalgamation in nineteen twenty three, was the biggest company, and biggest employer in this country.
and if one goes back er and think about that wages were probably no more than two pounds a week on average, at that time, the er share capital of the rail railway i think i'm right in saying, was four hundred and fifty million pounds at that time.
quite a concern.
they had hundreds of thousands of employees, of horses and er everything.
er massive organization.
and of course if you strip everything that's profitable out of it, like the erm er the railway air services went, erm the er the er erm hotels, ferries, everything else you can think of, you're left with er with a runt that doesn't make money, and not surprisingly the government then closes it down.
still i'm mustn't get too political must i.
er but you know you can always close things if you want to.
erm you can fiddle the books, i know that very well.
another picture show the here a little bit here.
erm some of the a adverts in er our sort of parish magazines and and so on, er fifty sixty seventy years ago, some of the names,still there.
motor company, well that used er that erm er that's the er .
er 's, well they were well known, very big shop in the town they had.
erm where lloyd's is isn't it.
now then samuel .
some of 's wagons, delivering coal to mr 's house, well no it was erm 's manor, it was before mr came there.
er but erm that was er the baron's house of course at one time in the eighteen, early eighteen hundreds.
now a snow scene.
samuel , this was taken from an advertisement in one of the magazines, and one sometimes got a little bit of er of exaggeration.
er not quite certain how many he had, he had at least one wagon i know that.
erm very common, you know s seventy three, twenty five, eighteen, erm they very often started at sort of seventy three or something like that.
to give the impression before.
erm i say i don't know how many he did have.
erm er but that er is a model of one that i made.
er and er i i think it's a fairly accurate representation.
erm that is er four millimetres to the foot, erm so not very big.
but that's on to scale there.
i i work to a pretty scale on these things.
eighteen point eight three millimetres between the tracks.
's and all the rest of it, and er pictured just by the er er just by the station master's house.
i'll stop in about five minutes if that's alright.
fine.
erm again,l m s yard there, residents .
i think that's where dr lives now isn't it.
in the nineteen sixties an awful lot of er of stuff went, er or was just allowed to er to get into bad repair, and of course er b r weren't terribly interested so they just abandoned it.
you can see again this er this decorative work on there, and again most attractive er chimneys.
the er gents toilet.
a bit spartan but there it is.
and er the ladies one look er there we are again.
going round the other side, where the sun was shining that way better.
very attractive for modelling purposes this.
looking close close up.
there you can see the sort of leaded light windows.
and the basically the whitish colour of the er the brick work.
the doors to the waiting room etcetera, or to the booking office.
inside.
used to be panelled there i think.
but er rather dirty yellow buff interior.
and again that's looking at the same time in nineteen seventy se seventy seven, seventy eight time, it's looking back into that er er driveway, and if you can remember the sort of the victorian or edwardian er photograph that er i showed you before, of er virtually that er that view.
going back to seeing to to looking at the erm goods shed.
there you can see the main entrance.
and that's where you went down slightly, er or erm carts, lorries, anything else went down there.
erm normally there was a er horse and cart here.
er certainly until the i think probably until the end of the war.
erm i believe there ha there was a comma or a yeah, i think there was a comma vehicle that was used, er later on.
it may have come from york i don't know.
er i suppose that's where they er did a lot of the office work, a wooden shed built on to it.
you can see the buttresses, and again the rather attractive brickwork that even even on a goods shed, a functional goods shed.
now that's the entrance and there is where the er there used to be the erm er wagon turntable out here, and the entrance for the trucks was er through that doorway.
i won't say through the door,looks as if it has been.
but er there.
i'm afraid the er er the end loading ramp and a lot of the other stuff had gone by then.
interior.
there you can see the er wooden staging, and this is where the wagons were brought in, er and were unloaded onto this wooden staging, and the delivery vehicles would come down this er sort of rampway, erm between er well either side,the staging either side.
and you can just see some of the er you can just see the timberwork on the in the roofing.
there you can see the staging, and that is where the er wagons came in along here.
more pictures of the roof timbers.
outside, that was some stabling i think there.
and er internal roof-work of the stabling.
just er recessed there to avoid it getting damaged with things passing on the side.
and we're now now walking round the back and er sort of now pointing towards the arms.
and you'll notice the er er again the brickwork and the buttressing along there.
now having just walked away er up towards erm er crossing end, there's the .
and that's the remains of the cattle dock here.
er i'm afraid a lot of it had gone by that time.
that was to hang mr on.
or dr .
in fact there're two of them, there and one there.
and that's erm crossing house up there.
and you can see that's where the main tracks where and this is of course where we had er sort of sidings and er other things and er and the main yard.
erm odd pictures of the engine shed, taken from somebody's back garden i suppose now.
er but you can see the er the the engine shed as it was.
single road.
accommodate er one locomotive only.
they normally had here, er just the one erm locomotive little o four four tank engine, johnson.
erm built before the turn of the century.
and and er they also had er normally a little o six o tank er which was er spent a lot of it's time at er a at at the what is what is now er castle.
er shunting there.
as i say, that er train would nip off to nottingham i think every monday i think it was, and get vacuum cleaned out.
er and then return.
what i've never seen, there's the that's the er tank, water tank at the top.
what i've never seen, is a photograph from the other end.
if anybody can tell me what was at the other end, apart from a hole, then not carefully, er i'd be very grateful.
i i guess there was probably a lean to or something like that.
but er i just don't know, maybe erm a sand store.
but as i say, i've never seen anything, and i've never been able to find anybody who can provide that answer for me.
there is a coal truck, that was parked there, and they would load up coal er from there as as necessary.
er into the er into the bunker.
in actual fact in later times erm, possibly when that er when this was no longer in use, erm they er put five, instead of two or three coal rails, on the bunker, erm they put five on at least a couple of the engines.
to so it could accommodate more coal, erm and not have to return to base so frequently.
erm there's another picture, showing the er water er water crane, with a barrel.
er and the erm and the hose and er and and lighting and so on.
and this was a little stage er for people to go and to erm transfer coal across.
now you can see on there, there's something at the back isn't there?
oh yes.
but i i don't know what it is.
i suspect it's er it's it's er it's some sort of little office at a guess.
but i would very very much like to er to find out er and get a picture of what is up there.
or somebody could tell me.
now that's a bit of a grotty picture put er it's useful to er er to give an idea of what was there.
now after the er there was a incident at erm the er engine shed, er the stabling of the locomotive was transferred away, erm and it used to travel at the end of the day over to the er or , or er engine shed, where it er stayed for the stayed for the night.
er and this is a picture of it and the engine shed, with some ex- locos.
er which were normal at that time.
erm and er and basically that engine shed is where 's clothing factory is, erm just er at the side of road,.
and by the hill bridge.
a nineteen twenty four timetable, erm not many trains between er and er and .
i say originally there were four, but by nineteen er thir nineteen twenty nine, erm basically the passenger service had ceased, although er we did get there were minor special and so on, that that were run and race days, the stations and the er were used, but basically erm er the er the line beyond er was er virtually entirely erm colliery er and and goods traffic.
but i say it it it became er quite increasingly important right up to its closure er of of er particularly for for catering for bl for erm pit.
er and indeed er a a triangle or a curve was put in near to er bring to bring trains or enable trains to er er to turn round or go round and face nottingham or come from nottingham from yard, and so on.
there's quite a quite a good service as you can see er between erm at least er junction and .
virtually everything.
and that was maintained right through to the end.
erm a late picture, say on or about the day befor when it packed up which was erm july nineteen fifty nine for passenger servicing.
and that was a sad day, erm and i've got the details, i think it was nineteen eighty one, er that it was finally bulldozed.
and i think a lot of that er of the hard core and er went, and was buried near the rifle range, up erm at 's place.
er just off road.
i think i'm right in that.
you can see that erm good job of the knocking all the er stonework down and so on.
rather sad .
now let's move along the line.
erm any any questions on er itself or you know if there's anything i haven't told you, i mean there's probably quite a lot, well there's a lot i know there is.
but yes anything you want to er erm please jump in.
er but if not let's move up erm to towards er towards , and this is erm this is the erm former under-bridge at , going up to mill.
now the roadway used to come under the railway.
little humpback, bridge here, erm and used i say used to go through to er mill itself just er quarter of a mile along the track.
erm the er the road was later just moved to the left hand side of that bridge, and er no longer having to have that restriction.
but that is still in place as you can see.
er a fairly light railway, erm but er but adequate.
that's taken from just re wh basically where the roadway is now.
and that's the trail looking towards .
now let's move up to the next port of call, which is station.
i should say it's convenient for neither i should imagine.
erm single track shown on this ordnance survey map.
again about nineteen er i think nineteen fifteen, maybe a little bit earlier.
erm a passing loop there, for trains to be able to just pull in and let anything going the other way, because it was mainly single track from er from onwards.
erm and a little bay there for er goods traffic to go into the sort of station.
station platform, the bridge there, and the station master's house, there.
a little head shunt at the end to protect anything running back onto the er main line.
erm slightly nearer picture.
er and i think erm er a bit later date actually.
no it's probably about the same.
that one's a bit later date, and you can see that they've double the track here.
erm just made it a er does it's not double track er very far, but they have actually double tracked that.
and this is erm in the nineteen forties nineteen fifties.
when there was a fair amount of er goods traffic particularly coal from .
that er that line i think went to just er a bit further up and erm er i say not an any matter of er another couple of hundred yards i think before there was only a single track.
er that is the station master's house at station.
and er it's now the part of the you can er go to a picnic area along here.
you know you can walk through there back to .
you can just see the remains of the platform there.
and er platform over here.
er this has been altered quite a lot since then, but you can still see the er gate that was er to the yard of the station.
moving on, to .
again, er early nineteen hundreds, and you can see single track coming in from here, and interesting bit of track work here, erm station up here.
double track through the station.
erm goods shed, er and er siding along here.
so interesting type of track work there.
now when the was opened, er it was decided to er to put in a line, erm just near to connect with , and pick up some of the trade for the for railway, cos the or the had already decided to get some from that end as well.
er going up to erm and so on.
so a line was put in, up to colliery.
and there you have, not a very good picture, but you can see this was th with the goods shed as per the last ordnance survey map.
slightly altered configuration, but er tracks put in there, erm and er to house quite a lot of wagons and to er allow trains to er to just be held there until they could move up to erm cos that's single track beyond there.
that was the quite enlarged quite enlarged er sidings, erm these haven't been changed here, but additional sidings on this side er and i say that curve up here.
erm just look at that one that er goods shed, that's er that's interesting cos er there's still remains of that there.
there you can see station.
station master's house there.
erm and the i can never remember the name of that road over there.
er o this is road down here isn't it?
anyhow, erm that's in a cutting there.
and you can see the track layout.
i say in interesting, if you built that in a model, people wouldn't believe you.
there's a picture in early b r days, of a i think erm special probably from .
and showing that even if the er station isn't actually used for passenger traffic, er it's well kept.
now let's look down from the bridge.
and there you see again in early b r days, er the er the station master's house, and er er and the station itself, over here, the goods shed over there , the various track works coming across, the er line up to round here, and as i say the various sidings that were put in to accommodate the additional er colliery and other traffic.
but er considering it isn't er used for passengers, it looks in quite good nick, doesn't it really that.
but i say that er just er look at that, and look at the particular roof line.
and er the the vent there, the circular vent.
now that's what it looks like more or less now.
er looking just er well that picture of that going through th station on a special.
that's roughly the same place.
well just a few yards along.
picture from the from the er bridge, and there you can see the goods sheds still there.
and that's looking up towards up there.
but the house is in quite good order, it has been extended.
and that's er from the front view, i didn't go wandering in.
but that was the entrance to the station originally.
er i don't know whether that's listed or not, but er i'm surprised it's still there frankly.
so as i say, very very very er prominent building.
there's a little weighbridge or or office.
er in somebody's garden.
and er you can just walk down either side of it.
er onto the trail.
that's one of the see the old railway building there.
erm looking up er the er line or that is looking from the bridge erm that's going down towards er th the just it it it er cur curved round to to meet the er the line er an and the s and the station was was here.
just along the road.
er that was erm station just along here.
and that's a line from between quite er steep er in quite a steep cutting.
looking towards again from the bridge over the main road, er as one gets er near near .
now moving on a little bit further, i know the talk said that i was only going up to er to , but i'm just going a little bit further.
we've cut across the er a six one four here.
erm at the white post.
er and er the line came from over here, and on that embankment there was a bridge here, er but they farmer has er removed that embankment, but has still left this part.
and there's some still some one or two rather nice little bridges.
er still extant, and er now i rather like the architecture.
erm and so i wandered up there and had a look at it and photographed.
interesting four four arch bricks, and er and and very nice stonework.
and the copings there, the retaining walls.
you can see the brickwork there, nicely done and er very attractive for again for modelling purposes.
going a little bit further, i'm only er just a couple here.
that's up erm near not a very good picture that, erm but a er l m s eight er eight f, up near that is.
on a er coal train going towards er towards .
and that's a an l m s crab also at .
again on a on a special, going towards skegness probably, at a guess.
now what's going the other way?
erm and er this is coming in old ordnance survey map, coming in past the race course, at .
and er single track at the time, and running double track, and platforms either side, erm a er wedge shape platform, nice wooden building there, another building there.
and and er er the platforms either side.
signal box over here.
various sidings, er and the trains from would come in to the left hand side of the top platform, erm and er would er go over here and and cut back and go out from this er this side.
a little bit er it's it's not a very good map the er ordnance survey map in the nottingham library, er local studies department.
about the best i could get off them.
erm and i've i've obviously photographed it.
now there's a picture er in early b r days again, of the line coming in from here and the very attractive in my opinion, wooden er structures, the shelter there.
the racecourse at the back, fencing, platform here, wooden structure here, buildings erm and er you can just see the edge of er another canopy similar to that er on this side.
this is taken from the er from a sta er from a signal box er just er over sort of where i am, er here roughly in in line.
and er well kept flower beds and so on.
barrow crossings here, signals and so on.
there's another picture, now that's looking erm towards up there, and the branch coming in there, behind that er building.
very attractive, take note of what that looks like.
a train waiting to go out go out to , er having met the er nottingham lincoln, or lincoln nottingham line which you can see just goes up the the back there.
and there's that wooden building there.
the train having come in from , and just going er forward well i don't know erm before back to er er to .
i think that's an ex carriage actually, but it makes you realize how small these things were.
in b r days, not a very good picture, but an b one thompson, four six o b one on a erm probably a birmingham train, er real cross country.
and there's the er in the platform there just having come in.
another picture er of the not very good, but erm best i can do, best i've got.
again see the old wooden structures, rather nice lamps and so on.
that's what you've got now.
don't know whether that's an improvement upon the wooden structures.
no i think not.
that's where that rather nice, this is w this is the er the departure platform at .
and that's the platform arrival from nottingham to lincoln, on the other side, the lincoln to nottingham one.
but er not terribly pretty.
there you can see that's looking up towards .
well the junction's gone completely, that was taken two or three years ago.
and that's what you've got left, up there.
i don't know why they bother.
there's a signal box, from which the other picture was taken.
no doubt a lamp and store there.
er this taken from where the signal box used to be, and that's where the line out to is over there.
there's hardly a trace of it, whoops.
and there you see er really that was the old erm remains of the platform going towards er .
that's all that's left.
and again that's the er er platforms as it is now looking towards .
oh and they sorry the other way round.
that's the other end of it.
and the er house there,.
quite a fair erm service on the nottingham lincoln line.
erm there's a sort of typical timetable of the nineteen twenties.
. now moving over to to , er what is castle now, used to be quite a nice er well the the actual building erm that building is still here, and the bulk of that er station building is still there, er but erm i'm afraid all the er the buildings this side have gone, erm and er a lot of this has a lot of this has gone.
again you you've got er lamps erm and water columns and barrier here.
in the background, erm a big goods shed which is still there.
i think er it won't be long before that goes i think.
there you can see, early b r days, erm as it shows it's castle, it wasn't castle, it was just in the old days.
water tower here.
there was never a turntable at er at .
er but er rather nice er buildings here, and er canopies, which i say have been completely er removed.
and er the level crossing of the old a one used to be here.
the goods shed at the back, and the train just coming in from lincoln there.
and the old semaphore bracket signal there.
er in b r days, a lot of the er traffic between nottingham and lincoln and derby, er was hauled by locomotives from lincoln depot, and when the erm region took that over, they closed the or the er shed down and used erm er lincoln region locomotives.
this is an old express passenger four four o, director class.
er in york station erm on a er lincoln to derby train.
erm very attractive er locos they were and extremely successful, they were the mainstay of er the er er line, and er outperformed many of the robinson four six os er that were built subsequently.
erm very attractive building, and i think in fact ten years ago when i took that photograph.
erm i don't think it's changed much.
coming back er along the line.
and that's how it was in earlier days.
the same building.
if you look at the look at that building.
it's the same building.
the gates, they only had a single er they didn't have gates on either side here, they just got the one set of gates.
erm plus this er er for for passengers.
but there wasn't there wasn't another set this side.
wasn't room.
in fact it's a very narrow er er roadway there.
it still is.
little er signal box at .
i managed to go in and have a chat with the signalman.
erm pretty little thing, the er boxes are very standard er in design, they're they were varying in size, but erm the er sort of double hipped roof, the finials erm the angled corners, of the windows erm the er er the rails erm and the er sort of platform there, er very very standard er all over the place.
they've got quite a few of these at erm at , at the railway trust, they've er they've got a number of these signal boxes.
they reckon they've probably got more than b r now, there.
er but a pretty little box that is.
that's another view of the of the same box.
now a little bit further up the line, whoops, is junction.
now used to be er a link line between erm this er track here, and round the back, erm under road, there's still a bridge there, er and joined up near where the rubbish tip is.
erm and er so trains could er instead of going towards lincoln having to perhaps back up to, they would go round er a triangle basically, and be facing towards , equally if they're coming back, they didn't have to go towards lincoln, and then back, they could erm could erm go round and er take their wares to sidings and marshalling yards.
er inside, er is a wheel which with which the erm signal box, or signalman, er could er open and shut the gates as necessary.
and er a line of levers for points, for signals, and some spares inside.
and that was er duly inside, you've got a fair number of spares on that.
the reds where the home signals, yellow, the distance, and i this the black were points were they not.
that's looking up er towards er nottingham,.
. long time ago,.
an old, a very old photograph and a bit grainy.
but erm a train just coming in er from lincoln to nottingham.
. that's gone now.
the signal box and the gates have gone, taken now probably five or six years or so ago.
again typical er box, erm rather attractive, has now got the er normal lifting barriers.
there you can see the er box.
erm and er the er whatd'youcallit, the the er er the level crossing er and house.
, in olden days, before they built the er bridge.
when the all the traffic came across the level crossing there.
there's still a signal box there.
erm that's now a private house isn't it?
yeah, it's a listed building.
but er rather nice.
and a barrow, a very common sight, and this this type of er of awning, erm very very common, er the barge-boarding er and the er and and the again the roof and the er chimneys and very interesting sort of a in the garden erm of the sort of station master's house, is that.
very much like er the style used er in coal offices and erm weigh weighbridge at .
that's still there.
erm where there's a caravan office, or caravan sales place just by the station, at , sorry at er .
erm i remember er thinking one day, erm i must get a photograph of that er building which was clearly a erm er a coal office or similar, i'll go back at the weekend and get that.
i went back at the weekend and it was a pile of rubble.
and that is the danger if you don't do things at the sec at the time, because er things do get er knocked down.
nice little building, little wendy house there.
.another picture of it.
just playing .
but er nice little summer house there.
now.
and let's just w just take one or two other pictures just for interest.
just to show you a bit further on.
that's what nottingham station i used to look like from london road bridge.
isn't that beautiful.
. absolute er changed a bit hasn't it since er well the lines have gone, the signal box and er and so on.
the old 's premises at the back.
and the bridges, erm lovely o six o, and er erm four wheeled guard's, guard's van with a veranda at this end.
erm these er this is a one a of three or four photographs erm from the society collection.
we've got erm tens of thousands of photographs.
quite a number are erm there's quite a few taken in the nottingham area in .
erm and this is one in station, one of the spinners.
beautiful design locos.
these erm finished there days really on easy graded routes such as the nottingham lincoln line.
and er that's waiting to take a train out to lincoln.
erm nineteen er probably just about erm nineteen nineteen, nineteen twenty time that one.
there's another similar loco, railway, one seventy eight, spinner.
nottingham behind.
underneath the old bridge over the top.
again a train to er out to lincoln, one of the two four os.
very much in use on the lincoln line until certainly during the wars.
till till about the beginning of the second world war.
along with and the other guns of four four o.
mainstay of the motive power at the n, and on the nottingham suburban services, erm the old er built erm er round top fire box, with the safety valves er and erm er well no condensing here or anything on it.
and that's got a bell pipe fire box, and er valves on that.
again all in nottingham station, on local.
and there we are ladies and gentlemen, as er all things should finish with the queen.
erm 
that er concludes my little contribution to the evening's entertainment.
erm i hope it may be of some interest.
erm it is i assure you but a fraction of what i've got.
but erm they difficulty is in erm let's say keeping within a couple of hours.
well that's fantastic..
erm anyhow thank you er all very much.
right.
is there anybody 
how you got started singing?
how i got started singing?
aye.
well me, oh, how i got started singing, it was really just i didn't sing very much really.
my dad was a good singer.
he wasn't a trained singer or anything, it was, just happened that he, he was a good singer.
my younger brother he's a good singer as well.
but er us 
did he sing at home, your dad?
he just sang round about the house, aha.
and we just, he knew a lot of the, he was interested in si singing and he just knew the words and and just sang round about the house.
mhm.
and he just sang too.
you know that's how he he learnt.
so what were his favourite songs?
oh dear, he was what would you say, i don't know he liked the kind of ballads, er he was a more a kind of bay he liked a ballad, so i really couldn't tell you who was his favourite singer or anything like that, just if a song interested him he just
what do you mean by ballad kind of songs?
well more the slow, er songs, not the fast.
the love songs and things like that ?
things like that.
mhm.
but i i never sang anywhere, i just sang round the house as well.
mhm.
and it was really er i think it was really the pantomimes that i started singing 
was it?
here, oh yes.
i never i never went out 
were you were you in the drama clubs here when you were younger then as well?
i was in the drama club when i was when i stayed at home, but we didn't do pantomimes, we we did plays, one act plays, and three act plays, we did three act plays.
we never did pantomimes.
and er but that's the only time, you sang at weddings.
so i said, come on mabel, sing.
or my father would sing 
so how long did you live in for?
we've , into the village, we lived out in the countryside till i was eight, and we come down into the i should say town shouldn't i, we come down into the town when i was eight and i was there till i was twenty two, and i came up here, when i got married.
mhm, is leslie from this part of the country?
les is from oh well he was, i think he was three when he came up here.
he lived in, he was born in castle douglas.
mhm.
but i think he was three when his father was sh came up here to work.
what did his father do when he came here?
electrician, you know he still worked for the the electricity board .
did he come with the start of the scheme then really?
no well it wasn't the scheme he worked on, he would go round and sort your cooker or you know he was that, maintenance, the maintenance side.
er other thing, and they lived down there opposite the garage, that was the electricity board house then.
so would that be about er the late fifties or something you would you came here then yourself?
i ca i came here in nineteen sixty one.
sixty one.
mhm.
that's when i got married, nineteen sixty one, i came up.
what did you think of when you came ?
well it was just a quiet wee village just i had come, wasn't much different it was quiet as well.
mhm.
and er there wasn't there wasn't much difference really.
everybody was very friendly, it didn't matter whether you were an incomer or not, they always spoke.
mhm.
you got to know people very quick in .
that was one thing about the village, and your your neighbour would where jane is the now, i don't think she'll have hardly seen her neighbour in dumfries, but here they were always you know
you couldn't get away from them.
oh they were in or out.
so did you do any singing when you came here first?
what was the first kind of thing you got involved in ?
oh the rural choir, i forgot about that, yes, i joined the rural choir and .
and er i couldn't sight read or anything like, i can't sight read.
but i can remember once when i was at the school mrs was our music teacher and we were to go from doh to far, you know doh to far, and they used to s , she used to say listen to mabel, mabel's the only one one of you that can go from doh to far.
but er so when we came mrs the sight reading of course i was lost because she used to 
is that mrs john ?
no mrs billy.
billy.
she used to take the rural choir.
how long had it been going then when you came?
oh it had been going for quite some time, i don't know really when they would start.
was it all ladies ?
mhm, yes, oh aye, all ladies.
she was nearly retired, billy 
she was nearly retiring by the, no still the girls go to her at the school so she must have been going for, two or three years after we came up here, but i would be in the choir just, maybe two or three years.
and then it 
and did it 
it fell the choir fell folded up ,
folded up and she 
aye, oh
retired?
there was nobody else took it on.
was there a church choir going at that time then?
yes, aye there would be, just the same ladies that have s been in it for years.
but there were men in it for quite a while, i was wondering when that kind of faded out.
oh that was faded out before
that was a good while before 
aye before we came up here.
i wonder if, it mr, was it choir or his father or something that had it, i can if i can remember somebody saying.
so what was going on in the way of entertainments and things like that when you came to ?
when i came up to live here?
there was quite a few dances, in er, do you mean dances in the town hall?
ah there would be there well just one or two, not not every week or anything like that as far as i can remember.
just a few over the winter?
just aye, aye, oh they didn't have them in the in the summer, and of course in them days well the the bars shut at ten o'clock which meant you know they came into the dance hall just after that where nowadays the bars shut at twelve o'clock and
it's hardly worth having a dance .
it's not worth having a dance.
but i heard the town hall was having one, not the town, was it the town hall or community council having one between, i think it's the town hall, between christmas and new year and really i don't think it's worth their while having them then.
do you think that's been a big thing contributing to there being a=less dances and things then?
do you mean the bars being op oh i think 
and clubs.
i think so really 
do you think it's the main thing ?
i think that's what's really, it's killed them as far 
mhm.
as the dances are concerned.
and another thing is the young ones don't dance.
they can
do you mean by young ones my generation ?
i mean , yes, well maybe you can but i do but the the younger ones are ever er you know younger ones like carl and them, they can disco but they they can't waltz or er foxtrot or 
how did you learn to waltz then?
just by going to dances, just by going to dances, we just, you just picked it up, your your partner could do it and you just learnt from there.
mhm.
that's one thing i've always been a quick learner which has been quite
mhm.
i think jane's got er that as well.
she seem to be able to pick thing sup.
does she like dancing?
not as fa not the dancing but when she was working in an office you know they just needed to show her something once and she could pick it up.
mhm.
it was the same in the the pantomimes when lily has learnt learnt the dancing, i could er after she had showed us about twice i could i could have it no bother and the rest of them were still struggling away trying to learn the steps.
so it's quite an advantage.
so did you go to dances quite a lot before you were married ?
oh yes in aye.
was that the place where everybody went to
to the town hall.
young lads and lasses would get together ?
lasses would yes, aye, to the dances.
and they used to run er buses to different places, you know, you used to go to different places, and .
and what kind of band played for the dances when you were in then?
bands like what tommy has, you know accordion bands.
that er they were all more or less that kind of band.
so by the time you came here it would mostly just be tommy that was playing?
roundabouts, er the only one i can remember is tommy round about, you know playing er in the hall.
and , it was just these kind of bands that
mhm.
were in those days, the accordion bands.
so but we fair enjoyed them , they think, the younger ones don't like them nowadays but
mhm.
we enjoyed them.
cos i like, i like the accordion, i like country dancing.
did you go to the country dancing club at all?
oh yes.
went to the country dancing club, used to go all over to the country dances
oh?
to different places.
it was supposed to have been quite good up at ,?
aye it was sti , yes it was still going when i came up here.
mhm 
aha.
was it mrs , from took it ?
and were there men went to the country dancing as well?
oh yes , oh yes, aye.
not so many men as went ladies but er
do you think
there was a lot of men.
the rise of the country dancing clubs was maybe be to kind of try and compensate in a way for the dances themselves going down, ordinary dances, folk were wanting to do the scottish dancing and things?
it could have been but you found 
you found at the country dancing, it was different people that was at the country dancing than what than what it was at the more at the the ordinary dances.
folk that maybe would have been shy to go to a
mhm.
a big dance?
yes er maybe but 
would come to the country dancing.
or some of the older folk maybe that 
folk, i think yes, it was more, mhm.
right.
but you get country dancing that's very energetic really.
yes.
but i oh i used to go to the country dancing.
so was there a drama club going in when you came here?
no.
that would be finished up?
that was finished up, mhm.
what about the one, was it still going?
when you came here?
i don't think so, i can't remember eh it going then.
because i think it was tommy that said it was really after the one finished and there was nothing else round about that there was a gap of a few years and then you got started again here.
yes, but er it was actually mike that got it back up here,mike and grace , john 's first wife that started it up.
i can remember leslie coming home, i think i must have been expecting doreen at the time, that was in, that was early early on, nineteen, well that was nineteen sixty three, and he was, he had heard that had i had been in the gatehouse drama club, and er he said, would i be interested in com in coming to the drama in if they started?
leslie said he would need a special part for me then.
but that it took another oh quite a number of years really to get it started up.
they were very good for it's first 
oh the first concert oh yes 
those kind of people.
the f i often find that really the first year it was more fun and er then when they started on the plays and that it got more serious and
a bit more like hard work really?
it was really, there wasn't so much fun in it, it was all more serious.
and when bobby was there it really was
i remember
oh yes.
he and andy together were very good .
mhm, yes, oh they were, aha.
bobby was really, he just kept it going really.
sometimes just one person like that or a couple of people ?
it , it just needs a character really, just to keep it going.
and he really was a character.
somehow in the drama, even though it's so long since he passed away .
there's nobody can replace individual people .
there no, no, nobody at all.
and do you think er the others feel that like you do about doing the plays that it's maybe a bit more of a strain you know the competitions and 
i think some of them do , yes, i know s er some of them have said how much they enjoyed it when it started off first, but er but now it's just got that wee bit more serious.
we're with the plays, with going to the festival of course, you can't,you must be serious when you're practising for something like that .
do you feel like it's almost like doing a different thing that you're not, you know when you're actually acting in the play you're more self conscious and you're more conscious of what you're you're moving and you're speaking and whereas the likes of the panto you know you just be yourself really with a bit of fun thrown in .
yeah, yes, oh yes aye the plays the plays you've got to think what you're doing wand if you miss your cue line you're putting your, the person next, off as well that it is more er serious and you've got to think more i think
mhm.
really.
but however
so you just kind of kept kept on singing, after the choir and that finished?
aha, when the pantomime started up that was just carried on in there.
not that i'm a great, good or great singer it's just i seem to have a strong voice.
unfortunately you can always hear me above everybody else.
oh dear.
that's, you can 
but if er if folks spoke about you you know they would they would say you were a singer?
because you're seen in public and you do sing in public, there's a lot of people that sing but as you say it's sometimes just in their own homes or they used to but they would never sing in public ,they used to sing in the choir .
yes, sing in public, no no.
i've i wouldn't i don't think i would go out if somebody said, would you come and sing er at such and such a thing.
i i don't think i would go.
but in the pantomime, well you're singing with everybody else, you're not er on your own really.
and the pantomimes a different thing altogether.
mhm.
and i mun that i must have words in front of me, if i don't have words in front of me even though i know it, i i still forget it.
but er 
that's right, just nerves.
i think it's the nervousness that just knocks the words coming out of your head.
oh,
it's easy to do.
aha.
oh aye.
but er do you quite like singing for folk that know you?
do you like singing in the village, where everybody knows you, or would you in some ways be less nervous do you think if you were singing like even to folk,who just don't so well ?
quite know me so well?
do you think that makes any difference?
i think it would really in a way and yet the people in know how you sing so the whereas the maybe wouldn't know.
mhm.
and you would you would be more, you'd be more nervous in case they they thought, well she's terrible isn't she?
but it would also be fresher for them, you know 
oh yes.
folk folk that know you either w might be too critical or they might just switch off because they have heard it before .
they have heard it before, mhm.
but i've never well i've never really 
you've never 
sang in anything other than the pantomime that
mhm.
int he village you know, except maybe at at the social or something like that, said, come on up and sing and then i forget my words and that's me.
do you like to know where, for quite a while in advance what you're going to sing then ?
i do really.
aha, i do really.
if somebody's would l if somebody wanted me to sing i really would like to know er because 
do you not have a wee store of your favourite things then that you
oh i have a wee store, yes, but you see you don't carry them, i don't carry them with me, if i carried them with me i could sing i could, well that's it,
if you did it more often maybe,
i feel if, yes, you would remember them an awful lot easier.
aha.
but er
what, how did how did you collect the songs that you sing then, i mean were they just things that 
just taking aye, just songs that i liked and i just er take them off tapes and, and records, and i just write them down,
do you do that all the time?
are you always, when you're hearing something 
mhm.
you're listening
mhm.
thinking, oh i'd like to sing that .
and i'd like to, aye, and i just write it down in a if it's on a tape you can put that pause on and just take line by line, you know.
mhm.
but erm and if you listen to the tape long enough you can, i can pick up the tune,
mhm.
as well, and just, and have the words.
and then as long as the pianist or the accordionist know the tune i'm alright 
can you take it off the 
mhm.
music as well though if you had to?
if somebody gave you a bit of sheet music?
no.
no i would have to learn the tune like by listening to the
aha.
to the person singing.
aha.
that's the only way i would learn a tune, i couldn't sight-read the
mhm.
the music off a sheet.
right.
do you have you ever had a go at the piano or that?
no, though i would like to have been able to have played, i can remember saying to my mother once, i would like to have been able to have learnt the piano.
and er but of course they couldn't afford to buy me a piano to learn on so
mhm.
that was it.
any other instruments 
mhm.
you particularly like?
i that i like?
or would have, to listen to?
to listen to, to listen to, mhm.
i like the guitar, i like to listen to the guitar, not the classical stuff, i'm sorry to say but, i like to listen to the guitar.
or er a clarinet, i like the sound of 
aha, aha 
oh i like the sound of a clarinet, mhm, i think they're lovely.
but er the piano's the only one i would of like to have learnt to play.
mhm.
i often feel sorry that i never was able to play but
oh you still could 
plenty of adverts about .
yes oh yes, aye .
practice in the town hall.
well we had a piano actually, we got it for doreen and doreen she started to learn, she went to mr .
remember mr that used to live at ?
she went to him and then he flitted away.
and er she just never went anywhere else and gave up.
and carol liked to come through and just tinker but she never got lessons or anything so we just sold it.
mhm.
but, as long as the music had doh ray mes written on it i could play with one hand but
mhm.
other than that i was lost.
mhm, do you think it's quite good 
mhm.
that they're getting a lot of music at school these days and?
i think it is, yes, i think it's a great thing really.
do you think it's important?
yes, erm i can't give you a reason why i think it's important though.
but i think it is.
i think it's a it's the lighter side of the their their schooling.
they have a serious side but they must have a lighter side as well, mustn't they?
in the school.
but you must really enjoy singing to yourself, you must find that something 
oh i do.
you get out of singing that you don't get anywhere else.
its's no, no, i i do enjoy, i r i like singing.
i like the music.
i i'm really interested in music.
do you feel as if you're really expressing something
in the music, in the song .
even if it's just a simple wee song?
mhm, mhm, it is, it's lovely .
everybody should be able to feel that they can do that, you know?
aha.
aye, sure they should.
so is there an what kind of things would you like to see in the village and round about int eh way of more music or less music or a different music?
would you like more dances ?
or ?
myself, i'd i'd really enjoy dancing, er so does leslie, leslie enjoys dancing as well.
but er
you would go to more it there were more do you think?
well nowadays i don't know whether you should record this or not, but nowadays erm they'll not go unless they've been to the bar or something before that well unfortunately leslie's not able to drink now, he can't after his operation, he can't take, it just upsets him altogether so he can't go to the bar and all the rest of the company have been to the bar and they're in a different mood than what leslie is, so leslie'll just not go, and it just, it's kind of, cut him off 
mhm.
there, you know.
that's a shame.
that er it should be any account for a pension fund should carry the name of pension fund and any transactions involved with pension fund money wh it should be a duty of the financial institution to make sure that any account they were paying money into was a pension fund account.
if i may say so the key point isn't it that a lot of the transactions you discussed were off market transactions, they were unusual transactions and the financial institutions that were carrying out those transactions whether they were acting as banker or acting a as broker, they would have had knowledge that those transactions were not normal market transactions.
so if the law was clear that in those circumstances they should have been on notice and should have therefore watched where the money was going, there wouldn't have been a problem and are we not saying that legitimate stock lending which i think is what is about is suggesting, if carried on properly on the market, would be all right, but if it immediately goes off market into the back doors and back rooms and people can't see what's going on and the financial institutions take part in that, then they are doing something that un undoubtedly is probably going to cause loss to pension funds and shouldn't there be a clear law which makes them liable in those circumstances.
no you were saying weren't you?
oh i'd say it is
yes.
wrong anyway in that er i'll say it's the er early on it in the report good defines what he determines a prus trustees duty and as i said to a sort of effectively orb enter into a tr transaction which immediately cost effecting kind of money rather than making money for the pension fund er is against that duty in the first place, but it to it should however be ma made explicit that it is against that duty which i will say stock lending may be okay for a pension fund, but not stock lending where the er pension fund is acting as the borrower rather than the lender.
right, ken any other points?
er can i er i i started to comment on about the er er bank accounts and which are y you know er my the reaction that i saw was all round the table er i think we would go further but er any company handling pension funds should carry pensions somewhere in their names on all on all their paperwork etcetera so that everybody's totally clear that they are dealing with pension funds and er er to agree with a comment that you made in one of your earlier reports that er designation of bonus of shares of pension funds should be clearly er marked on those shares er that also would have a at least alerted these financial institutions as once again that they were handling stocks belonging to pension funds and they still ignored it in that that w case that they did, but er they would have not had the excuse that er apparently some of them have made that er they were not aware that these were pension fund assets.
i think they are still claiming well it's not that i didn't know, but anyway ken 
er we did we were gonna raise a point on that the clash of the regulatory rules and the producery duty of under trust law, you know and i i think there you know there there was a comment that that i picked up with professor gower you know in his report which i think where he said the government obviously have greater confidence than i in reliance on pristine trust law in relation to modern commercial developments such as unit trusts and occupational pension schemes, which its founding fathers never contemplated.
now there was nothing in good really that i think addressed this mismatch between those two types of law.
now i think that the good did say oh well there is a law commission report expected, but i think that you know the good should address somewhere tha that problem of trust law and regulation should and then i did in fact on going through the report and er you know and also your own reports erm there's the one about designation of assets you know, which i think was a very good recommendation of yours, i think the actual area of responsibilities and the wider role of actuaries was important.
i think the inde independent corroboration for actuaries was another important factor, custody confirmation by the auditors, veto of transfer of assets, independent auditors for pension funds, independent custodian arrangements, in-house investment management, you made some comments, co-ordination of the various regulators, co-ordination of the professional advisers, establishment of the pension tribunal, you know now as far as i was concerned on on my sort of looking through it, those were all recommendations that that you have made over your two years and i couldn't really find any response to those in good, and i think that's er you know we we personally found that disappointing.
also i mean er we take your point and we've made it before ken that there's a real danger of asking for a report from someone like professor gower and then picking it, instead of actually taking the whole thing because it does actually add together in some sort of coherence erm and had professor gower's report been an exception in this entirety, we may not have been had the pleasure of having you back again today, but thank you very much, er all three of you for coming points so clearly 
thanks very much 
at the end was very good wasn't it?
mm.
that's good.
mm.
very good.
yes.
all right, we want to make a start if we can, if people could settle down.
what i'm gonna ask you to do, if you could introduce each of yourselves and say which pension fund you er come from er and if we start from your left, my right.
oh the thing in front of me it's malcolm adams and i'm with the national association of british steel pensions.
it's john mostin also with the national association of british steel pensions.
i'm gay appleby, general secretary for the national federation of post office and b t pensions.
i'm ron smart, chairman of the british erm federation of post office and b t pensions.
jim castle, member of the imperial tobacco pension fund.
i'm michael smedley, chairman of the impact which is the imperial tobacco pension fund.
gay.
thank you chairman erm i would like i know that you've been listening to the first er part of our session this afternoon, erm and i'd like to ask you to discuss with us one of the questions that we asked the group the pension fund erm and that's to discuss the balance of power that exists between the employer and the various groups and classes of pensioner.
perhaps if i just start with that simple question and see how it develops.
what help us,we we'll go to we'll direct the questions to different people erm and if you agree, just say you agree so that we don't have er erm a session of people just rec reciting what everybody else has said, but if we start with you erm jim, sorry i can't see the
michael smedley.
yes, right.
erm, we feel very strongly about this that there should be a balance of power with the employer nominating no more than half of the trustees.
after all he's put the money in to pay pensions and the beneficiaries ought to have a strong hand in saying how that money is used, so we see half the trustees coming from the employer, the other half from the members of the pension fund, and we've got a pension fund with the very heavy weighting of er pensioners and not so many employees and we would like to see the remaining seats er half the trustees elected, partly from the current employees, partly from the deferred pensioners and partly from the pensioners and reflecting in a broad way the numbers in each of those categories.
erm 
we think that would be a fair way of of erm managing the fund and avoiding the case of having tame tame trustees who do what they employer tells them.
b t, same or different?
erm well slightly different in the fact that er we er have two close schemes with far more er beneficiaries than there are er subscribing members, and at the moment that are four nominated by the er employer and four by the unions er we wish to say a pensioner erm that the rights were a pensioner nominee to that board of trustees, because we feel that er the situation is er is going to increase, we've got so many beneficiaries and that the pensioners have no representative er i know that erm people on the boards of trustees are completely impartial, but on the other hand there is no pensioner there, the members are unsure of the fund, because of what's been said, not that i'm implying it's not a secure fund, it is a secure fund, but they think why are they keeping the pensioners off, they there is some sort of hidden agenda they will not have us on there because neither of the businesses although we have tried for several years er they will not entertain at the moment erm a pensioner trustee, and yet professor good in his report acknowledges the merit of pensioner nominated trustees, er particularly in the sort of schemes where we've got,wh where th the majority of beneficiaries.
great, british steel?
yes er i think we're just slightly different again er chairman inasmuch that the british steel pension scheme at the moment has fifty ce fifty per cent employer er trustees and fifty per cent nominated trade union trustees.
we too would like to see some pensioner and pensioner trustees on that trustee board, but we do also recognise because it is er a large scheme heavily weighted er with er pensioners and deferred pensioners in the very fact that it has been transferred from the public centre of public er sector into the private sector, that we would like to see an independent trustee er er appointed on to the er committee of management it would er er sort of act as a balance and be able to provide er specialist advice to particularly the trade union trustees and for that matter the employer trustees so as to keep a broad balance of what's happening within the that time.
very good er we may come back to that in a moment.
thank you.
but listening to you make that case it's very similar to reading the great debate on franchise reform in this house in the last century, when people said we should be included and that people like us should be able to have the vote and put people into parliament, it's i mean it was just that you were you were making that plea about pro that the board should be representative as being like the group who are benefiting.
you've made very powerfully erm and i'm that's a point that we'll take on board.
when you talk about this split, fifty-fifty, could we go back that way.
who elects the chairman?
well that's er that's another thing that's happened within the british steel's er scheme, the chairman seems to be elected in himself or by the company, it's certainly not e elected by the trustee board and er a and we would like to see 
you mean parachuted in is he?
yes, he's certainly parachuted in.
all right.
but who but, but that's describing what happens, how do you think the chairman should be elected?
i think
even letting you you've all talked about the you know employers are paying money in and so on, we don't want the schemes wound up, er if i was the the employer, might i not be concerned if you elected a a chairman that wasn't erm favourable to me?
er you might er the company might well be concerned about that point, but er i think if the composition of the board was er correct, that er that possibly wouldn't arise.
what you mean you'd have blocking mechanisms?
yes.
yes, very good, i see the point.
thanks.
i see no reason additionally why the independent people on the board should not act to protect the company in the same way as they're trying to help protect the other members .
yes, but your colleague has also made the point that the constitution might have a blocking mechanism so that people, both sides, could be satisfied, wasn't it.
but post office and b t management appoint the chairman of the trustees, there are four trustees appointed by the
yes.
management, four by the trade unions and the chairman is appointed by the management.
right.
no, no, the present the present one was a i think he was a chairman of a big building society before he came into the post office and they use these are on three year terms, but er the previous post office one er spent nine years as chairman, spent three yea three terms of three years.
so they're there for three years?
yes.
right and er is it a full-time job the chairmanship?
erm i don't know, i don't think it's erm i mean i i think it occupies er seventy-five percent of his time, but it isn't full-time.
no, i was just thinking,we we're, we're debating the in the commons at the moment, changing the parole board from having part-time members, to having salaried full-time ones, which are on limited contracts and that clearly puts those parole board members in a different position to the home secretary and one it's ju you just do it because it's a part-time activity, you may get some expenses that you think is important, and i just wanted to get clear whether the chairman on a limited contract a large part of their work appointed by the employer.
thanks.
our chairman is appointed by the company and is usually a senior management member.
right.
the erm pensioners and the employees have no say whatsoever in that.
very good.
that's that's the present case, but i think er impact would say that with a fifty-fifty split, then those trustees should elect their own chairman and should be free to bring in independent trustees, so if you had a board of say four company members and four elected by the members er of the pension fund, they might decide to have two outside independents, one of which they would choose as the chairman.
so you no longer have a fifty-fifty split then, do you?
er you er you'd have two outside independents and you couldn't say how they would be, but they would be elected by the whole te whole er board of trustees.
jane?
er i'm forgive me if this information is already available to the committee but er are each of your schemes are they money purchase schemes or final salary schemes?
ours is a finance salary scheme.
committee did draw distinction between the two different kinds of schemes, erm perhaps if i could just ask you what do you think of the committee the good reports er conclusion on training for trustees where they er the recommendation was that it was a laudable objective, but should not be made compulsory?
er can i answer that.
we er are fortunate enough in having a training scheme, in fact we were able to elect our first pensioner representative trustee two years ago and he is with us today, we've just had another election and er two this time were elected, they will be trained, they had er mr hill had a two-day training by our actuaries er watsons which are a big company, er but in talking to him about it he felt there was a lot to be said for having continued training, not just at the beginning of a two or three-year stint, but successively later.
it's a big responsibility which is very much on the trustees shoulders, he is, he is standing on his own there and it's
we were we were only smiling then because watsons also trains us 
it's one of our advisors.
no, but we feel that's very important indeed.
absolutely, no.
no, no we understand the value of that don't we.
erm well we would like to see training of the trustees, there is no training at the moment er for the trustees in erm either of our schemes er and we very much in our submission came out we felt there should be er training from the trustees.
right.
yes, we would like to er certainly see er training become compulsory with trustees and we would also like to see er guidelines set er for that particular training, so that train so that the trustees within all schemes would receive similar training, rather than piece-meal by one set of actuaries or another set of actuaries.
erm can i just clarify this point, the impression i'm getting from the, from the phraseology in the way you've chosen your words is that your trustees in your particular pension funds which all er former nationalised industries, er haven't received any training.
is that correct that er
that is correct.
well the as far as we know the er certainly the trade union
don't get any.
don't get any.
when the management trustees get any training, we don't know.
yes, in british steel they, they do receive training, they do receive training.
right.
even if but i'm not saying that it's er the proper type of training that we would like to s 
you were saying that in fact you still don't get any training.
that's correct.
yes, so you're privatised?
that's correct.
yeah.
just to make a party point, is that all right?
even accepting the fact that training is desirable i think that the trust law is so complex
i know.
that it's very, very difficult indeed to be trained to know all the parts of it.
in the last analysis is the innate honesty of a trustee who realises that perhaps something is going right and takes advice.
could we just quickly, who should pay for the training of the trustees, employer or the trust?
the trust.
the trust?
the trust, yes.
pen pension fund.
very very good.
david?
of course the role of the trustees is, is, is re- affirmed really by good who er says that there under the under trust or as he sees it, the trustees should remain the legal owners of the fund and i wonder if we can move on to ownership.
i i think you were all here listening to the erm pensioners before you were they were talking about their ideas which were also our ideas in our er report on the designated ownership of, of the pension funds and in particular they had a couple of ideas which you may have heard about having the word pension in the in the names, just technical points, er pension in the names of er of the funds and and people who were er giving advice on behalf of them.
i wonder if you could like anybody would like to elaborate on that?
we'll start at the far end.
can i, can i just pass for a minute and think on this one and come back.
mm 
i will pass as well temporarily.
erm 
it's really sorry, it's really the, the question of whether the the the the pension fund belongs to the trustees or is it has been found 
well erm in our organisation and it was in our submission that we felt that it er it should belong wholly to erm the employer erm it should belong to the beneficiaries as well, because we feel very strongly that the pension is deferred pay, it is deferred salary, and therefore they should have an ownership of part ownership in that fund.
they pay in six per cent of their salary, why should they be debarred from saying that they own part of those funds.
we feel that erm you know that they're both very good schemes an and well run, but we still feel that erm the e fund should not be owned entirely er by the employer.
british steel?
thank you.
well we consider that er pensions er contributions are deferred pay, including the employers contributions erm that the fund should be held on trust by the trustees and that the employer should have no ownership in it whatsoever.
very good.
er i would, i would echo that, that we feel that they money has been paid in for work or services done by the employer and by the er fund members themselves have contributed and i don't think it belongs to either of those parties in any more, it's held by the trustees to pay pensions, if for nothing it's been put there just to pay pensions, it's not a piggy bank for er for companies to draw out with the with their tame er trustees allowing it, it it's money the trustees hold in in trust and i believe that's the law at the moment and er i i think we would like to see that confirmed in any new law.
good, thank you.
off that, er i think several of us believe that the complexities of trust law at the present moment can make it very difficult if one agreed.
our own particular case is our case went to the high court some three hundred thousand pounds, when perhaps if we'd had a dedicated pensions act setting out what could and could not be done, that would never have happened.
you, you have a history of legal actions don't you?
sorry sir?
you have a history of legal actions 
not we ourselves
no, no 
but the companies which we belong.
doesn't it, yes indeed.
what's the state of play on the second one, did it were, were the trustees all dismissed, or did brown wilkinson's judgment stop that?
erm th the net result of it the proposal stopped dead, are those who did not wish to transfer, meaning the pensioners, had an increased inflation percentage as a result er pensioner representatives have been appointed, widows have had a increased pension.
how much of that flows from the court case,i i wouldn't like to say, but my guess is quite a bit.
so you won on that, didn't you, because the proposal was to be no increases unless you transferred, wasn't it?
mm 
yes, indeed.
thank you.
any other comments?
it goes on in our case, that both of our pension funds have had massive surpluses, i.e. erm there was a reported surplus by watsons the actuaries, of one point erm seven billion which suddenly er vanished within one year to a seven er seven hundred million deficit and 
er it er seven hundred and fifty three million 
of course our members er of which we've got a hundred and twenty three thousand, flood the lines into luton wanted to know what happens they imagined a surplus as being some pot of er big tub of notes that they can dip it and we can dip into, but of course the surpluses have been used basically by british telecom in particular for funding early retirement schemes er we're in no way in knowledge whether the money's every been paid back.
we've been told that er everything's done in, in the relation to the trustee but of course when you're talking about massive sums of one point seven billion, our members er who are seventy five/eighty olds who suffered the problem of the inflatory years, their pensions haven't kept, kept pace with the with the people that are retiring now.
we're gonna come 
although although there's a lot of people who feel they're all living in the lap of luxury if you're post office or b t pensioners, they aren't and we haven't been able to get this surplus er in any way used for the benefit of those people and er and that's where the ownership of the fund really and the surplus are tied in together.
we're gonna, we're gonna stay on this issue of ownership and surpluses for a little time, cos it's actually so important, but it's not unreasonable for your pensioners to think that here was this pot of money to which one could dip into, but the only thing is the pot of money disappeared didn't it?
yes,an and what really upset the erm the, the members of the scheme and the pensioners was the fact that the money was going to actually erm fund the redundancy per programme er for the business and was going to the benefit of the employees and none of it was going to the actual pensioners.
although they didn't, they didn't act illegally, they didn't say right, we're going to make the redundancy payment act, but what they did say you retire at fifty, we will make your we will enhance your pension to what you would have got at age sixty, we will enhance your lump sum to what you would have got at age sixty and erm give you a redundancy payment from the firm and obviously everybody fifty and plus they've gone in thousands, they had enormous waiting lists and then they had to say no, you can't go you know, too many people wanted to go.
what happened, people should have been paying in for ten years were suddenly taking out for ten years and these huge enormous sums and obviously the surplus which our members had helped to build up er and provide through the years and we've got seventy-five year olds on you know, extremely low pensions hardly making ends meet, and there were vast sums of money being given away to the employees, that the employers took a contribution holiday and so they weren't paying into the fund either you know, and all the profits of b t as you all know were soaring and partially because of the use of the pension funds and this has greatly obviously erm upset our members and we feel very strongly about it.
right.
as you are probably aware chairman from the media that the british steel national association of british steel pensioners also have a problem with a surplus and are seeking legal advice as to what has taken place.
er certainly the surplus was used to er create a new scheme for the present contributing members and er to the maximum benefit of the new sponsoring company, which er in the pensioners view er certainly er caused a great lack of security to the fund in our view of what they have done and er it is of in our opinion a matter of public concern and that we welcome the opportunity and i believe that you said previously that you're gonna come up on the ownership of surplus, so perhaps getting away from it 
we absolutely no, no, you'll find we won't leave this topic cos there's three people who actually want to come in now and i'm going to bring them in round the table.
clifford first and then er
can i take you back to the er the good report er about trust law,i it the report er concludes that it should be retained as the framework for er occupation of pension schemes.
now i m p a c say that they believe there should be a dedicated pensions act to replace trust law and the national federation post office and b t pensioners say trust law should continue to be the basis of pension funds.
could tell could each of you tell us why you take a different view?
one way or another, i'm not quite sure what the the state of the 
we believe now outdated, it was never designed to deal with the current situation the modern situation and when you are talking about 
debts of some four hundred thousand million pounds, trust law does fall down.
the only recompe the only resource anyone has is to go to the courts, for the courts to decide what the law is at that present moment.
now that's a costly business as we know to our cost, we didn't have to pay the three hundred thousand pounds, the pension fund did, but we had to risk paying those to go to court.
now next year something else might happen and somebody may be forced to go to court, if they cannot go to court they cannot get justice and they have to wait to see what happens.
now we have in the companies act a table a which gives you a suggested er model, memorandum of association and articles association, why not a dedicated pensions act which says in here these are the minimum terms you must contain in your trust deed.
you can better them if you wish, but you cannot go below them.
people would know exactly where they stood then and we wouldn't have to go keep going to the courts to develop the theory of trust law.
so you'd leave the trust law in existence, so you wouldn't call cause a total legal revolution, but you would impose on that a spy of legal requirements which if trusts wish to through trust law enhance, they could, but they h all have to bring their agreements up to that minimum?
up to that minimum yes 
yeah, very good.
a model, model trust deed.
yeah.
yes, b t?
page two of your submission
yes.
paragraph 
we felt that erm trust law had worked effectively erm you know over the years erm w we were happy with the extra powers that the er committee were recommending and the extra precautions that the committee were recommending that we brought in, but erm we would be happy with that backup to continue with the trust law.
even in the situation that we find ourselves in with the maxwell pension situation, where we find that the the erm trust law didn't prevent the things from happening which did happen.
do you still take that view?
but they hadn't got the backup of erm like th the regulator appointed.
i'm sorry i couldn't hear everything that the maxwell people were saying, sitting behind me,you you've lost their, their voice and you you know, i couldn't hear what they were saying.
but wi with the appointment of er of the regulator and the oth the other erm recommendations that were made by the report, we think with that backup w w we are still basically happy to continue with trust law.
well i er er we i wasn't speaking about the, the evidence today, i'm speaking about evidences that have been taken in the past, where we had even trustees before the committee.
we informed the committee that regardless to the fact that they were trustees, they were in no position to challenge mr maxwell and under those conditions then they felt that the the law should be changed that the trust law wasn't sufficient to er look after pensions, because they felt that in certain circumstances in fact gave evidence to the committee, various people gave evidence along those lines, that they were almost powerless against mr maxwell and that's .
that's why i'm surprised you, you take this 
can i put clifford's point to the point that we're still discussing er which is about the surplus and how both your legal frameworks you're advocating relate to the answers you've given us about surplus and the concern about surplus.
now if i, am i right in saying that b t is happy to continue er with the present framework of trust law, because within that framework you've proposed to us er a er a body of ideas about the composition of the numbers of trustees and who they should represent, which would make it much more difficult for employers to raid the fund.
yes, because you would have your pensioners and your employers, yes.
and b t so and imperial who's had a different experience to you after a takeover bid from a new employer clearly wants a legal framework, steel braces put within trust law to make it much more clear where power lies in th the operati operation of the trust and that possibly one one of those steel braces would the law would relate on h who could get their hands on the surplus and in what conditions.
so to some extent your responses re i is quite naturally a response to the position you face with your employers isn't it.
our response to it was of course that er since the post office was re released from the civil service in nineteen sixty-nine to trustee, to pen the trustees, there's been a minimum amount of trustees er i can recollect on those on the funds and we've not had any problem.
i don't think the management interferes with the fund like the maxwell situation.
certainly in our meetings with the with the presentations we get from the trustees every year about the fund, we meet the trustees, we haven't er any erm real worry of saying that the pension trust hasn't operated, because i think our the trustees of those two funds are much more independent than the maxwell ones er were.
i'm not trying to put them on an equal par, but later maxwell erm action group were concerned with four hundred and eighty million disappearing.
yeah.
you've told us one point seven million disappeared in surplus 
well 
deficit.
billions.
billions, into a deficit erm that there are large the problem we're looking at now is these very large transfer of assets which people feel that they built up with their contributions and whether that's right or not.
can i just ask british steel, that i mean you're hearing the other two groups.
in a sense responding to our questions, naturally, depending on how they've been treated by their employer can we have your comments about the sort of legal framework you think the pension fund should be in and then jeremy will take over.
right, well i think the biggest problem with trust law is that it expects too much of trustees.
it starts off essentially defining them as people who are impartial, and in no time at all we are talking about them being nominated from different sector interest.
however, i think the practicalities in the situation are that we have to face the fact that they are not going to behave impartially and you see we have a classic example in er the circumstances of our own situation as described by john.
we have an equal spit of company nominated and member nomina and union nominated trustees.
they basically carved up our surplus between them and each supported the other and overriding all of that is that each and every one of them was an active member of the scheme.
now how under those circumstances do you achieve the impartiality that's supposed to be the cornerstone of trust law?
that's brilliantly put.
right, jeremy.
yeah, really the question i want to put is to the er b t post office er representatives, that y you made a perfectly reasonable objection to the way in which b t funded it's early retirement scheme from the pension fund.
obviously this was challenged at some point.
what i don't quite understand is what was the legal basis on which they went ahead with this despite the objection, presumably as some of the trustees as to what was being done, i could hear we're talking of er a deficit of one point seven billion appearing or it a surplus disappearing into a deficit, which is actually four times as much has disappeared out of maxwell.
okay we know where it went and we know what it was used for, but er my question to you is, is it a legitimate use of a pension fund to fund a business development scheme which involves early retirement?
well we did take some er legal advice on it and we were told that it was not illegal, erm i mean we think it's highly immoral erm, but we were told it was not illegal, because they did not actually use the er the redundancy money did not come out of the fund, only this enhanced pension etcetera which was using up the, the surplus and we were told
and it started the pension payments at a younger age or something?
pardon?
they started paying 
yes, at fifty instead of sixty, they said you retire at age fifty and we will make your pension up to what you would have got at age sixty and we will also do the same with you lump sum and so now you know, this and they did that with thirty thousand i think went in one year, it doesn't take long to get rid of one point seven billion pounds when you're doing for that er that number of people erm and
i think the problem is that this one point seven billion was er an actuarial assessment by watsons i it may never have been that amount of money.
directly directly b t started erm saying well thirty thousand employees will go this year under b t ninety-two scheme i.e. they will go at fifty, they will draw their pension at fifty, which isn't the trust deed and for many years inland revenue point blank refused to let anybody draw a pension below sixty.
they changed that, so the money er it's a bit different than the maxwell, the money hasn't been erm a switched over to the cayman islands and all over the place, it's it's stayed in, in the but of course we're told by the trustees and by our legal advice that nothing illegal's taken place, the money's been used to st er finance early voluntary retirement etcetera, etcetera.
if the trust deed says the pension has to be paid at sixty, then the trust deed says it has to be paid at sixty, surely that you know, that's something you can't get rid of.
the schemes now are paid a pension at fifty, but the only, the only snag i understand is it isn't inflation, inflation proofed until fifty-five, but people are drawing their pensions and they get their lump sums at fifty and it's enhanced to take into account the actual and expected earnings for the next three years, so er you take thirty thousand people, one point seven billion can soon erm
disappear.
can soon disappear.
clarify a point here.
i if someone's their pension at fifty
yes.
and they had joined british telecom at twenty,
yes.
then they will have paid some thirty years 
thirty years yes.
into the pension fund
yes.
presumably the maximum was about forty or was forty-five
forty-eight er yes.
forty eight and and presumably many of the people who are perhaps seventy drawing pensions, they may not have even paid in thirty years themselves, i mean they may be many of them may not have been around for that period of time.
so in fact there may be a quality of treatment actually between someone retiring at fifty or fifty-five in terms of the number of years paid into the pension fund, as someone say age seventy.
well i doubt it actually at the moment.
pardon?
the operative word there is might.
yes erm because i doubt it, erm at the moment with the fund that we're talking about the erm the close scheme, because most of these people in b t were originally erm in the post office, and of course when the they split erm then the erm post office workers went over to b t, they get a b t pension but in actual fact they paid into a pension scheme erm for many of them for forty years because they come into that age group, where so many people, you took a job when you were twenty o or or sixteen and you stayed with it for life, you didn't chop and change like people do these days and the majority of our members erm we can go down and i would say the vast majority of our members have actually worked for the post office or starting with the post office and then b t or staying with the post office for forty years, there's no end of them they've got in there forty years service.
so no, i can't agree there, that there is erm unequality, they think they are being hard done by.
also history if i might just say that when the post office er split from the civil service, the firm was in deficit for twenty years and of course post office management say quite clearly that they were putting in sums of eighteen per cent of the pay bill when it was only supposed to be nine per cent of the pay bill and that's why they're entitled to the to the surplus.
b t say the same, that for twenty years the firm was in deficit and both managements put in much more than the trust deed says to keep us to keep the fund afloat.
but that 
employees paid their six per cent of their erm salary.
mm, yeah.
but the both until b t split from the post office, the post office put in if i remember rightly in negotiations those days er they were putting in something like fourteen per cent of the pay bill.
i don't want to get on to that
i think the point has been made er and let me er ask you to correct me if i if you don't i it's a fair assessment, the point that's really being made is there is a judgmental issue here as to whether a surplus arises from over-funding by an employer er substantial investment performance or or effectively unfair claiming between either the deferred pensioners or the pensioners and i it can be that all of those interests have to put into the pot and it's a judgment as to who actually is doing best in what circumstances.
i said i didn't want to get on to this area because it's you know, we could go on all night discussing whether this, well whether that.
we we ar it was really helpful if we are concrete in actually the answers that we give rather than speculative.
jane.
doesn't it come back to the issue of wh who they trustees are and who's interest, given that trustees are expected to be independent, in the end, who's interests do the trustees represent, because i've had experience of working with a pension fund that was in massive surplus and the actualar actuaries refused to agree their final report until that surplus was dealt with, so that the trade unions and the employer through the trustees had to negotiate a way of spending that surplus and er given the pressures of the actuaries to say we were not allowed th the funds to continue unless you deal with this surplus, then it comes back to the issue of how the board of trustees is made up and if we accept that there is a degree of representation on that board, then just exactly how that representation is divided.
well in both our our er incidences what happens is that the actuary recommends what erm should happen.
watsons actually recommended what should happen with both the surpluses and their recommendation was that both businesses should take a contribution holiday for the next three, five and maybe even be ten years in the post office, depending how investments go erm an- and there was no discussion erm between or negotiation between anybody.
that was recommended to the employers, the employers said yes, that's the action they would take, they put it to the trustees, the trustees agreed it and that was it.
full stop.
well i it's becoming slightly unfair because watsons isn't on the stand, watsons would also you know probably spell out in a little bit more detail, but their advice was comprehensive that there were inland revenue rules that it would put the tru and so on and one would want to s to say that tha that as well, but i do want to move on.
british, british steel, yes?
yes,i i would like to come in to say how our er scheme was transferred from the er british steel pension scheme to the new scheme in nineteen ninety.
now once the benefits were approved er by the trust deed and er bearing in mind that the chairman at that meeting informed the trustee and i quote in determining the structure of the scheme the company was prepared to enter into consultation with the trade unions and trustees, but this was a consultative process only and not a subject for negotiation; and their company then went on to seek the er er the transfer of the present contributing members er er and a hundred of the members agreed er to transfer into that new scheme.
now the trust deed and rules were asked for prior to their consent and the company made it clear that they would not be available until after the new scheme commenced on the first october nineteen ninety and indeed it was some eight days later on the ninth october at er trustee meeting that the company presented the trust deed and rules and it was resolved that the committee of management would er transfer all the close scheme members er into the new nineteen ninety scheme and er the same trustees appointed themselves er trustees of the nineteen ninety scheme and one hour later were the presentation of a draft deed amending the british steel pension scheme and a draft interim trust deed establishing the british steel pension scheme in nineteen ninety and a draft trust deed and rules of the british steel pension scheme of nineteen ninety were tabled for noting; and those very trustees that were on the first meeting agreed to transfer the assets to the new scheme, set as trustees of the new scheme one hour later, accepted the assets and er without er seeking either legal or actuarial advice and in this case er watsons were advisors to the company to the old scheme trustees and to the new scheme trustees.
the difference though between you and imperial tobacco was that the trustees went into the courts didn't they?
yes.
dissimilar.
the reason they went into court though was that erm
i m p a c which was formed to protect the pensioners had threatened an injunction if they did not go to court.
so er listening to the gentleman on the left er echoes of nineteen ninety high court case.
yes.
so you were saying who were threatening an injunction if you didn't go into court?
we engaged a solicitor to look into the matter and he became convinced that there was i won't say a loophole, that there was a reason why this should not be done and er requested the committee of management to to court for advice.
this was done in the name of one of our pensioners.
and stated that if they did not do so, we would an injunction to stop the proposals going through.
the committee of management took the advice and went to the high court and as a result the proposal was stopped.
jimmy?
yes, mr chairman it seems to me regarding that you could drive a double deckered bus through the legislation, and
goodey has not looked at it satisfactorily as far as i'm concerned and as far as many of the scheme members are concerned, i mean he has concluded that the employers are still entitled to er do what they like with the surplus, the only thing that he recommends that they do it with the approval of the regulator himself, but he the other thing that the
goodey has reported and concluded, that as long as they get their hundred per cent minimum requirement they can still go on their contribution holidays, and many and my scheme members feel that this is just a it's a freebie as far as they're concerned and scheme members don't do not benefit from the surplus and they would like to have seen or preferred to have seen
goodey making a change for the benefit of the scheme members paying into a scheme, rather than employers going away in a contribution holiday.
now is there any other er pension funds that do likewise or have any other experiences as far as surpluses are concerned?
i i find issue with one point in the good report, when he mentioned that a surplus is a notional surplus, it cannot crystallize until the fund actual close down.
if it is in fact a notional surplus, then why is the employer allowed to take money out of that notional surplus, he's taking real money out of from a notional surplus, it should not be allowed.
told you didn't he that the surplus the only way one would know there was a surplus there was when the fund was closed, when every pensioner had been paid money left.
but in view of the fact that different actuaries can come to different answers and professor good quotes one where a difference of half per cent gives rise to a difference of a hundred and sixty seven million.
how does one know and i accept professor good's point what the exact amount of that surplus is.
there may be in fact a deficit, and yet we still allow the employer to take money out.
now if we're saying you cannot ascertain this surplus, then why is the employer allowed to take money out?
right.
b t?
would you like to respond to jimmy's question?
well we were disappointed in the good report because er they did say it was one of the major issues, and yet they said that they didn't think any sweep in changes are needed which rather erm contradicted the earlier part of our report, we would have thought there were erm changes needed.
a group of our here is largely actuarial surpluses and one doesn't really know whether there's a surplus things keep changes.
the actuaries go to the employer to find out what their plans are.
british steel how you go that answers a really good way of putting it.
thank you very much.
well british steel adopted a somewhat more subtler tactic er they make a strong point of the fact that no money has ever been removed from the scheme despite the presence of a six hundred surplus.
what they did is took half and used it to reduce their contributions and it was a large reduction, it was a reduction from twelve to currently five per cent.
er okay, different words to describe the same and indeed they didn't take out of any fund, but they achieved the same end result.
jimmy?
well if this is the case then you don't see that any recommendations in goodey would stop that kind of thing happening and if you don't see that, what recommendations would you make to the committee that goodey should put any report that would stop that kind of thing happening.
well the fear of boring you because i've said it before, i think that either a trustee made up of an equal balance of members from the various interested groups which is very difficult to achieve in practice and additionally independent trustees certainly in our case, we believe would have stopped it happening because the movements in the direction it went was clear now that we have the information in front of us to the trustees, it was quite clear what was gonna happen and nothing was done about it.
now we didn't have a voice, remember we were never even informed before or until two years later after the event that it had happened.
there are still british steel pensioners from the old scheme who genuinely do not know that there exists a new scheme.
do you not believe that with this recommendation where
goodey has said that the regulator has got to give his approval that would stop that?
the problem there i would suggest is the timescale between the things happening and it getting to the regulator and being digested.
in the present 
didn't understand the two years, i mean he would have told the regulator.
yes.
erm whereas if there were independent trustees responsible to the regulator and they were properly trained, they would i suggest be able to smell out very quickly any malpractice and would have straight to the regulator, if only to call a stop for someone to have a look at it.
nothing recommended with goodey in that particular cause is of any good.
i don't think so.
have erm imperial?
belief is that er if you get the trustee balance right, that's the first place where the decision ought to be made, but there should be a fall-back position which good has given, which they the trustees could go to the regulator in the case of er not being able to solve things, but are feeling very much on surpluses, that the money is there first of all to pay pensions and until pensions are paid up to inland revenue levels, whatever they are, then no money should go back to the company.
the question of taking pension holidays in between out of surplus is a sort of mid midway position, but er very definitely we feel strongly that money should not go to the company.
we have suffered from the same thing as the other two er abalance have said today of money being used from our surplus to provide for redundancy and erm i it's been exacerbated by money being available from the people who are made, made redundant, going to the company and swelling their balance sheets, while all the cost side of it comes out of the pension fund and that has caused a lot of ill-feeling particularly from the older pensioners who have seen years of inflation when their pensions were not made up to the same extent.
in the old days when there was a possibility of of erm ad hoc payments made, er that sort of thing was taken of, since the takeover of the company, that hasn't happened to the same extent so there's a very strong feeling with the older pay er pensioners that they paid money into a pension scheme which now shows a surplus, but other people are benefiting from it.
we need we've got lot's more questions to ask you.
peter?
erm, mrs appleby you mentioned briefly earlier the role of the regulator.
how do you see the regulator doing his job with a hundred and twenty eight thousand schemes to, to monitor?
great difficulty 
erm er well we welcome the erm e er er the proposal that there should be a regulator.
somebody er to whom the erm er er matters could be referred er whom er could remove trustees er who are er not acting in er the best interests er of the fund erm to whom er i understand that the erm beneficiaries could er appeal if they felt that their fund was being erm used i in the wrong way which is something that we haven't got at the moment erm i mean just going very, very briefly back to the question that you asked erm about this how would you stop what's happen happening is by having, we would have thought a pensioner trustee, because even the question has been asked how did it get through the union trustees and the answer is that most of them are employed, and they are looking over their shoulder because jobs are going and redundancies are being made.
you've got a pensioner employee er a pensioner trustee on there and they're not looking over their shoulder for their job, they are going to do the job of a trustee and watch the funds, and they would then be able to go to the regulator if they saw something that was amiss.
whereas somebody who is employed by the firm might be very worried about doing because they're more bothered about keeping their job.
so th the case you're putting that the that the pensioner trustee er ship is more powerful than you originally put cos until now you've been put it in grounds of i the trust should be repre representative of it 
yeah 
now you're saying erm rather well, that in fact that person or persons could be more independent
yes.
because they're actually not worried about being sacked
yes.
either erm because redundancies are coming up, or imperial trustees down, they were just got ridden of as a way of moving them off the trust.
yeah, very good.
in our case the unions approved our proposals of the company, they raised no objections it was only the who raised objections, the employees didn't and in the high court case, we've just said, how can an employee be independent when he depends upon his employer for his future work.
so, really what you're saying is that if we're looking at trip wires to stop things happening, there's a powerful a really powerful case for a pensioner trustee looking for whistle blowers.
yes.
there's also a powerful case for having pensioner trustees there's far less chance of erm people twisting their arm, although they could have the character.
and that's where independents come in.
but, but, but that's a problem we all face.
and we're also saying that if you have a new pensions act, the work of the regulator would be much easier.
why?
he won't keep have to be going off to court to find out what is the law at that moment of time.
erm it's an adventure and it gives you a sense of freedom.
i don't want to do anything too energetic, i just like erm the sound of the water on the boat, wind in the sails
you can be as serious about it as you want to be.
it stops you sitting on the beach and just doing nothing all summer.
and i've been out of there for three hours and loved every minute of it.
you can go from being a total novice to someone who's got a reasonably good idea by the end of one week.
when you're on your own you will thrive in it, it's a really good feeling.
all these people have discovered a passion for one of the most popular recreational sports, sailing, and as you can see, you can take it up at any age.
now sailing encompasses windsurfing, dinghy sailing and ocean cruising and if you've got millions of pounds to spend you can enter the fastnet or the admiral's cup but whatever level or whatever part of sailing you want to take up, the basic techniques are best learnt in a dinghy or sail boat because it's less expensive and a lot more simple to operate and that's the purpose of this video to learn the most basic techniques as quickly as possible and to be at one with the wind.
now since i take to water like a duck does to orange sauce i enlisted the help of suzanne here because if there's any fooling in the water to be done i'd rather she did it and not me.
that's alright by you, isn't it suzanne?
well it seems just a little bit unfair but i'm sure i could put up with it.
well we're in the fabulous surroundings of menorca and as well as being a wonderful holiday resort, it's also recognized by the royal yachting association as a training centre.
now since i've just about learnt the difference between the sharp end and the blunt end of a boat, i've decided to go straight to the top and get some expert advice from the r y a and who better than the r y a's national coach john , hi john.
hi.
first of all what exactly is the role of the r y a?
well the r y a is britain's national authority for the sport of sailing, simple as that, we look after every aspect of sailing and powerboating but our particular role in training is to set the syllabi pre to the courses, to train the instructors and to make sure the standard of teaching in every centre is up to scratch.
that beautiful white sail belongs to a topper, doesn't it?
now why do the r y a specifically recommend these sail boats?
well we know that a lot of beginners are put off by the complexity of larger boats and one great advantage of the topper is that it's so quick to raise and easy to sail, so great for beginners.
the second point is that the topper's hull is made of polypropylene which is remarkably tough and resilient.
now that's important for sailing schools dealing with a lot of beginners.
it's also important for the first time buyer.
right i'm convinced such a good breed and you very kindly rigged this topper up for me so well you won't mind if i take it for a spin will you?
just hang on a minute.
i know i said it's easy but it's not that easy.
before you go out there are some important safety considerations we should talk about and the first one is personal preparation.
i think you're having me on now john.
this is the mediterranean so why am i squeezed into this number?
well in really warm weather a t-shirt and shorts may be enough but as it gets colder so you need to add layers of sweaters, trousers and top the whole thing up with a wind and waterproof spray suit but all that can make you a little clumsy, so the answer for most british sailors is a wetsuit like the ones that you and suzanne are wearing.
but why is mine slightly different to howard's?
you're wearing the summer shorty for greater freedom of movement for your arms and legs but howard's got the full suit, for more protection in colder weather but they both work on the same principle.
when the suit is wet, it traps a thin layer of water between the body and the suit and your body quickly warms that up to a comfortable working temperature but if you fall in when the suit is dry, the cold water can be quite a shock and so a good trick in cold weather is to put the wet suit on in a hot shower and then over the top you wear a spray suit again to keep off the wind and to protect the wetsuit.
right, so exactly what are you wearing?
well if you take this i'll explain.
the dry suit is great for winter sailing because you can wear lots of warm layers underneath and the suit keeps them completely dry by means of watertight seals at the wrists and the neck but you mustn't forget about the extremities either.
in summer you'll need a sun hat to keep the sun off and in winter don't forget that about a third of body heat is lost through the head so a warm woolly hat is great.
bare feet are asking for trouble and so you need a pair of soft soled shoes which don't slip on the boat.
is wearing one of these suits going to help me stay afloat in the water?
no, you should always wear personal buoyancy when going afloat in a small sail boat.
for larger boats a life jacket like this one is fine, particularly if you are going further offshore but it's too clumsy to wear in a small sail boat like the topper and so we prefer the buoyancy aid like this one.
so it's probably just as well that i didn't leap off in your boat because er even in this climate i, i could have ended up pretty cold and miserable especially if i'd fallen in.
well the thing is howard, i don't think you'd have got very far if you hadn't understood how we put the boat together and so i think it's important that we look now into more detail at how to rig the topper.
it seems have done that john's intent on making us a nation of master mariners and under these circumstances, i think i'll adopt the old maritime adage, women and children first, so i'll it back, john can show you how to rig one of these things, alright, come on.
right suzanne, now we're going to look at the various parts of the topper and how they fit together.
right.
we'll start with the hull
mm.
one piece unsinkable, all ready to go in the water.
right.
and we've got the files, the rudder and the daggerboard.
right, then i know steer the boat, i'm not quite sure what the daggerboards are for.
that slots down into a hole in the middle of the boat but that just stops us drifting sideways.
oh.
then we've got the rig, the mast comes in two parts, the boom, the sail and all the ropes to put them together.
and you're gonna show me exactly how it's been fixed together are you?
that's next.
first of all we slide the top and the bottom of the mast together, lining up the red dots and then we touch the halyard.
the end of the halyard goes through the end goes through the end fitting and then we tie a little stopper knot in the end, then we bring the other end of the halyard down and make it up tight on this crease at the bottom of the mast.
that holds the two halves of the mast together
yes.
while we sleeve it into the sail.
okay suzanne, keep on feeding it through.
fine, now we're ready to tie the top of the halyard to the top of the sail.
there are a few knots that we need to learn when we're sailing.
this particular one is called a rail turn and two half hitches it needs to be tight so that it doesn't come undone when we're out there.
okay suzanne, now you had to slacken off the halyard to let me tie that last knot so if you could tighten it up again that will pull the sail up to the top of the mast.
that's fine, now all we've got to do is to tidy up this end of the halyard and tuck it out of the way.
you will see that most sailors are tidy around the boat particularly with loose ends of rope, and there is a very good safety reason.
if you leave them lying around, then you're liable to trip over them.
fair enough.
now before we step the mast, we need to turn the boat more or less into the wind and that's a good chance for us to start thinking about where the wind's coming from.
where's it coming from today?
at the moment it's coming from over there.
that's right, so we need to turn the boat round and line it up like this.
right.
let's go.
okay.
it is nice, isn't it?
now your next feature of the topper is this special mast gate.
we open it up like that, slide the mast in, slide it shut again, put the toggle in.
a little knot here just so there's no risk of it coming out and off we go
right.
so that's how it works, open it up and get the mast.
you will probably find it easiest to slide the mast in at an angle like this until the collar fits neatly underneath the mast gate.
at the moment the sail is only attached down its needed edge but before we can use it, we've got to control it properly and that means to tuck it in the boot the jaws clip on here, the down-haul clips on to the sail and is threaded through the jaws before we make it up on the cleat the position of the boom and hence the sail relative to the wind is controlled by this rope, the mainsheet.
the next thing to attach is the kicking strap or boom bang.
this is used to control the twist in the sail and to stop the boom riding too high.
at this stage you simply clip it on and leave it slack.
this other cleat is for adjusting the out-haul, we'll come on to that in a moment.
to attach the sail to the boom we have two clips, one simply holds the sail down to the boom, whilst the other one, the out-haul is used to bury the tension on the foot of the sail.
the rudder and tiller assembly simply slot on to the back of the boat but the important thing to remember is that the tiller must go underneath the rope force before the rudder is clipped on.
otherwise the mainsheet won't be able to slide over freely.
the kick up design at the top of the rudder means that it's particularly easy to fit on the beach.
right, that's it, the boat's ready.
so let's go afloat to look at how the basic boat controls work.
okay suzanne before you go for your first sail there are a few things you need to learn about basic boat controls.
the most important control is you, the helms are always set facing the sail.
yeah.
and so if you sit just a little bit further forward, that's fine.
now you steer a boat with a tiller here at the back and you always hold that in the hand nearest it.
then if we hold this rope in the other hand and effectively that's our accelerator.
that's what pulls in the sail and makes you faster.
now today because it's a little windy we've rolled up some of the sail out of the way to make it easier for you
yeah.
and so you could pull it in just until it stops flapping and then you'd be able to sail away and we'd never see you again.
so before i let you go, i think you ought to learn how to turn the boat around, we call that tacking.
it's quite a complex manoeuvre and so we'll break it down into the different parts that changing hands, turning the boat around and changing sides.
now we'll get the changing hand out of the way first because it's easier that way and so what we do is to bring the rope hand towards the tiller hand and then you can tuck it under your thumb, pick up the tiller with the other hand now, that's fine.
now we initiate the turn by pushing the tiller away and the next thing to do is wait.
this takes quite a long time and slowly the boat turns around.
when the boom comes over the top of the boat then you can change sides, sit on the new side, straighten up the tiller and you're sailing away again.
oh, that sounds better 
well we'll try that once more and then we'll let you go.
okay.
so the first thing we do is to change hands, that's good, push, wait change sides, straighten up the tiller, look where you're going that's fine.
great.
you're ready to go for your first sail.
oh.
now it's only going to be a short one, just out towards that buoy and when i call you, you can turn round, okay?
okay.
okay come back to me now.
alright let everything go fine you've become a sailor.
now all we've got to do is teach you how to sail.
this is our stable starting position crawl on the .
the wind is blowing directly across the boat, it's known as the basic two position.
the sail is just flapping and there's no drive in it.
it's flapping freely.
to start sailing we simply pull in the rope that controls the sail that's the mainsheet.
then we can sail off on a reach in either direction just as we saw suzanne doing.
now let's watch that again.
from the basic two position, we pull in the mainsheet, we start sailing away on a reach, the wind is blowing directly across the boat and we accelerate away.
now to start sailing closer towards the wind, we need to pull in the mainsheet, pop the daggerboard down and then turn the boat gently towards the wind, we reach the point where even with the sail sheeted in tightly, the front edge, the luff of the sail is still flapping, that's as close to the wind as we can get and so we maintain a course to keep the sail full.
now we're sailing at about forty five degrees to the wind.
we're on the edge of what we call a no go area, if we try to sail any closer to the wind the boat will come upright, the sail will flap and we'll slow down and stop and so the best we can make either side of the no go area is known as a beat.
let's look at that again in practice.
sailing along at forty five degrees to the wind the sail is in tightly and it needs constant adjustment on the tiller to stay on that right course because the wind is never totally steady.
keep a look out for where you are going and watch the luff of the sail.
now we cross to the other side of the no go area but turning is called tacking, and so to make ground for wind width we have to go in a series of zig-zags, each time turning for about ninety degrees and see that the sail is kept full most of the time only flapping momentarily as the boat turns directly through the eye of the wind.
now let's look at the manoeuvre and tacking in more detail, you will remember it's a sequence which involves changing hands, pushing, changing sides and then straightening up again.
so the first thing we do is to change hands, then push, wait until the boom comes across and change sides and straighten up.
sailing upwind is hard work so don't waste effort by letting the mainsheet out.
keep the sail driving for as long as you can through the tacks.
now watch this, as we go through the tack the sail is driving for most of the time just flapping briefly as the sail turns through the wind.
the whole thing becomes one fluid manoeuvre with power on for the maximum possible time.
change hands, push, wait, change sides, straighten up and off you go.
now what can go wrong?
the most common fault is to be stuck halfway through the tack, head to wind, the boat's right in the middle of the no go zone and the sail's flapping.
simply push the tiller away from you, push the boom out and the boat will sail backwards and then pull the tiller, pull the mainsheet and sail off again.
if you get stuck remember, push, push, then pull, pull.
from the reach let's now look at sailing downwind.
the first thing to remember is that as you turn the boat away from the wind, you let out the mainsheet, the sail only works properly at one angle to the wind and so it's essential to let out the mainsheet as you bear away.
sailing away from the wind is known as running and you've got great freedom of choice in the exact course you pick, you can even sail dead downwind.
what we need to look at though is how we change course if that means moving the position of the sail across the boat.
here we're sailing downwind and we want to turn left effectively, so that means moving the sail across the boat without changing the course of the boat too much.
there, that manoeuvre is known as gybing but really it's as simple as that, sailing downwind you don't have to change course very often, unlike when we're sailing upwind with tacking but we need to show you a few more demonstrations about it in quick succession.
like tacking a manoeuvre consists of a series of related movements, change hands, push, change sides and straighten up again but the difference is in the tiller movement where you move the tiller towards where you were sitting, so let's watch that again, change hands, push the tiller to where you were sitting, watch the boom, as it swings across, straighten up the tiller and settle on the new side.
again, change hands, push the tiller to where you were sitting, watch for the boom, as it swings across, straighten up and sit down on the new side.
in stronger winds the manoeuvre becomes a bit more lively and here it's a good idea to twig the mainsheet to help the boom come across.
there's lots of power in the sail all the time and so you will have to remain agile.
change hands, push to where you were sitting, crouch in the middle of the boat and straighten up on the new course.
two last points before we leave gybing.
always check the area you are sailing into to allow for the time when you will be facing battlements but when you crouch in the middle of the boat, do keep an eye on the boom or you'll end up with a nasty bump on the head.
by the time you've mastered gybing, you can sail in almost any direction and so it's now time to look at the five essentials for sailing well.
sail trips, maximum driving power from your route.
boat balance, keep the hull flat for maximum speed.
before and after trip keep the hull level, don't make waves.
daggerboard position, get the right compromise between drive and drag course wave good, the shortest or fastest distance between two points.
sail trim isn't simply a question of pulling everything in and forgetting about it as the sail works at its maximum at any one angle to the wind.
on a beat, that is with the sheet pulled in tightly but as we turn on to a ridge you'll see that we have to ease the sheet out so that the sail stays at the same angle for the wind.
again moving from a reach towards a rung the boat effectively turns underneath the rig and the sail stays at that same angle.
boat balance is simply a question of matching the heeling effect of the wind and the sail with your body weight.
as the wind tries to tip the boat over, so you counter that effect by sitting out.
the aim is to keep the boat flat at all times so that it glides cleanly over the water.
in light weather you either keep the boat upright or heel it very slightly away from the wind so that gravity helps to fill the sail.
when the boat has heeled too far it tries to turn up into the wind and a lot of rudder movement is needed to keep it straight.
that rudder movement equals braking and so it's slowing you down, it may look impressive being heeled over like this but i'd sail a lot faster if the boat were flat.
let's look at that again, when the boat's heeled over that rudder movement causes a lot of turbulence and that's just slowing you down.
for an off trip is much the same, the idea is to keep the boat flat with the bow skimming slowly across the water without too much bow wave and the water leaving the stern very cleanly.
again without too much turbulence.
the most common beginner's mistake is to sit too far aft in the boat and that causes a great wrist a tail of to come up from the trunk .
a far less common problem but one which is much more dramatic is if you put your weight too far forward.
not only will this make the boat difficult to steer but if you try doing it too far, you'll start sailing straight under water.
now for the daggerboard position.
the purpose of the daggerboard is to stop the boat drifting sideways.
when we're sailing downwind, the wind is simply pushing the boat forward and there's no sideways force, so we don't need the daggerboard.
we could lift it right out but it's easier just to lift it until it's just below the level of the boom, so that it doesn't foul it when we're gybing.
when beating the sideways force of the wind is at a maximum and so we need the daggerboard right down to get a good grip on the water and stop the boat drifting sideways.
when reaching it's a compromise between those two extremes, halfway up and halfway down.
now to see just how effective a daggerboard is, let's look at these two boats beating.
the one on the left raises the daggerboard and immediately starts to sag off away from the wind.
he is still trying to sail the same course but the boat is just sliding sideways across the water.
course made good, means sailing where you want to go as effectively as possible.
the first thing is to remember is that no daggerboard is completely efficient and so if you try aiming for a goal point, you'll actually end up slightly downwind because the boat would have drifted sideways.
the way to overcome this is to sail slightly high of your intended course and you'll end up in the right place.
this effect is most pronounced when you're beating.
sailing upwind involves tacking and here you have a wide choice of routes to reach your windward goal point.
you could reach it in two tacks or in many more.
the route you actually take will be influenced by things like the tide, obstacles like shallow water or other boats and by wind shifts and wind shadows from the land.
all other things being equal, the most direct route is the best.
sailing downwind it seems most logical to head straight for your goal point but in fact, particularly in stronger winds, sailing downwind can be slightly uncomfortable.
it's better to sail two oblique courses to get down there but this if you choose where to gybe to reach your goal point.
launching with an offshore wind is a straightforward process.
first simply lift the boat into the water but don't let go at this point because you'll find that the boat will drift faster than you can swim after it, then you lift the daggerboard here, halfway down because you'll be sailing off wind.
then lower the rudder for control when you're sailing away and gather the tiller and mainsheet in one hand.
step in gently and push the boom out to help the boat turn away from the wind.
as the boat picks up speed, so you can settle gently into the boat to gain control.
that's it, you're away into deep water and sailing happily.
returning in an offshore wind is slightly more complicated as you have to beat back towards the beach.
look ahead to choose where you want to land and try to judge the depth of water, raising the daggerboard as you come into shallower water.
make allowance for the fact that you'll be drifting sideways more with the daggerboard up but as you come into shallow water then you can raise the rudder and step ashore.
then you can lift the rudder completely, take the daggerboard out and lift, not drag, the boat ashore.
taking it far enough up the beach so that it doesn't blow away again.
launching with an onshore wind demands a positive approach.
walk the boat out until the water is deep enough for you to put the daggerboard down far enough so that you'll be able to sail away.
push the rudder down, prepare everything because if you get it wrong you'll be straight back on the beach again and then climb in and sail away.
choose the tack which takes you most directly offshore and when you're clear, and only then, it's time to worry about the technique by getting the daggerboard the rest of the way down and sailing efficiently.
returning with an onshore wind is potentially the most spectacular of the lot.
if you don't do something you'll sail straight up the beach and rip the bottom out of the boat.
so as you come in raise the daggerboard, lift the rudder and then when you come into shallow water, turn the boat up towards the wind to lose power for the sail and stop before you hit those rocks.
then as before, step out to the shallow water, lift out the daggerboard, raise the rudder completely and lift the boat ashore.
now we've covered the basic techniques of sailing, the best way of putting them into practice is by sailing round the triangular course and so i've laid out these three marks.
we'll start down at the far end of what we call the lured mark and from there you'll have to tack all the way up to this closest one, the windward mark.
from there it's a reach out to the far end to the wind mark, drive there and back to the beginning again.
great.
we'll try it a few times just to put it all into practice.
okay let's go.
that's fine .
okay.
okay howard, this should be a good test to see how much she's learnt.
over she goes.
no she's let out the mainsheet to spill wind and now she's under control again.
it's quite a steady tack around the windward mark, now that she's reaching she should have raised the daggerboard a little.
now ready for the gybe.
no i don't think she's ready quite yet, she's got a few things to sort out first and that's definitely not right, she wants to raise the daggerboard not lower it, bit of confusion there about which way to turn the tiller but she's round safely, she should be looking where she's going now instead of sorting out all the string.
okay now she's off really quickly on a reach but she's oversheeted, she's got too much power there, she's sheeting the sail in instead of easing it out until it flaps and then just pulling it in a little.
should suzanne have let the sail out like that?
no, by letting the sheet go she lost power.
after the tack she'll have to put it all in again to accelerate away.
now sitting out to balance the wind 
that tack looked okay.
yes, but she doesn't need that bundle of mainsheet in her hand.
for this part of the course she should have the daggerboard right down,and she could be sailing in slightly shallower tacks towards us.
whoops.
what happened there?
well she let the boat heel so far before sheeting out that the boom hit the water and wouldn't go any further.
she recovered by leaning out more.
suzanne's got a good sense of balance which is always useful when you're sailing now let's look at this gybe to see if it's any smoother.
oh yes that's much better 
wow, she's really taking off now.
yes, the wind is stronger out there.
considering she's only been sailing for a couple of days, she's doing very well.
if she were more nervous we'd have reached the topper.
she's still a little unsure on those tacks, she's easing out the mainsheet as she goes round.
it's not dangerous but she loses power.
at least she's got the daggerboard down there.
i see she's sailing more efficiently to windward.
well it looks as if suzanne is beginning to relax and enjoy it more now.
she certainly is, after only a couple of circuits her confidence is growing.
she's acting more naturally to the gusts, leaning out and then easing out the sheet.
it's all becoming a more natural process.
well how was that?
it felt absolutely .
you did very very well.
oh thank you very much.
capsize.
this is the part of sailing which every beginner dreads.
the boat's on its side in the water and you're nowhere to be seen but in fact it's all quite straightforward, neither the boat nor you can sink and it's simply a question of pulling the boat back upright again and carrying on sailing.
a deliberate capsize is part of every beginner's course.
once you've tried it you'll lose all its fear for you.
this is the easiest way of turning the boat over, to tack without moving.
swim clear of all the ropes, swim around to the back of the boat, pull the daggerboard down and then simply flip the boat upright again.
with the topper, you'll find that there's very little water in the cockpit and so you can start sailing almost immediately.
with a little more confidence you barely need to get your feet wet.
if the boat capsizes because it's overpowered simply scramble into the high side until you end up standing on the daggerboard.
then lever the hull upright again and clamber back in, it's as simple as that.
the worst thing that can happen is for the boat to become totally inverted and here you need to slide the daggerboard quickly out before it drops through the hull.
now the accent is on patience.
just think of the resistance to the sail dragging through the water.
you have to pull very slowly and carefully, try to jerk it and you'll bend or possibly break something.
once the rink breaks through the surface everything happens far more quickly, you scramble in and you're ready to sail again.
if things go drastically wrong and you're a long way from home and need to call for help the most effective way is with an orange smoke flare.
if you see one of these from the shore, phone the coastguard.
even if you're upright you might need to call for assistance.
perhaps you're exhausted where you've had a gear problem.
while you're waiting roll the sail up round the mast.
that will reduce your rate of drift and avoid the risk of further capsize.
so you tie it up neatly out of the way.
then you can signal for help in the approved method, raising and lowering your arms slowly.
it may be tiring but keep signalling until you're absolutely certain that somebody has seen you and is on their way.
as the rescue boat approaches, prepare to be towed by taking the daggerboard out and get your painter ready to pass to the rescue boat.
this is more my kind of sailing, rescuing damsels in distress.
rescue boats are extremely important.
good sailing centres will have at least one and certainly the r y a ones do and they're important because if beginners get into difficulties out on the water you need to be able to get to them as quickly as possible and it also gives them a sense of security to have one of these things around.
are you alright like that?
the get her into shore.
so you've shown us all the basic techniques of sailing and more importantly how to get yourself rescued should things get out of hand but apart from the dubious pleasure of capsizing, are there any other ways of getting thoroughly wet?
as with any other sport, howard, the real exhilaration of sailing, comes when you're going faster and that can certainly mean getting wet.
in our case the wind is the driving force, so let's now look at strong wind technique.
in strong winds we don't want beginners to be overpowered and so we reduce the sail area, that's known as reefing.
okay, so how do you do that on, on this?
on a topper it's very simple.
you simply ease off the out-haul, take the kicker off completely and then we rotate the mast, then just wind the sail up.
when we've finished we tension the out-haul and put the kitty strap back on.
well that thing's pretty easy if you're doing it on the beach but what if you're out in the water and it suddenly gusts up.
just how easy is it to do that?
well it's always better to reef ashore if you can but if you do get caught out you can reef afloat just the same.
i remember the time i was out there struggling in a strong wind, the boat was definitely overpowered.
i had to use a lot of rudder to keep sailing on a straight course.
if a boat heeled right over it's not good for the boat and it slows you down, it is far better to reef, the technique is just the same afloat as it was ashore.
roll the sail around the mast until it's reduced in area.
in these conditions i wanted to get rid of about a third of the original sail area and so that's it, now i'm sailing much more happily instead of struggling against the boat i'm sailing in harmony again.
the excess sail is rolled up neatly around the mast out of the way and still i've good a good sail shape.
that means i can sail happily upwind or downwind in perfect control the whole time.
that's to an expert sailor to reef wasn't it because of course the stronger the wind the more exciting the sailing 
absolutely so if we move over from suzanne's boat over to mine, we'll see some of the fittings which make the boat go faster.
okay?
right so what have we got here?
well this boat's fitted with the race pack which gives it a lot of the extra controls that you'd expect on a larger sail boat.
first of all we've got the kicking strap three to one purchase, the down-haul has a three to one purchase, and the out-haul, that's got a four to one purchase.
it all sounds a lot more complicated now aren't you just making extra work for yourself?
no, in fact it makes life easier.
three to one, four to one, that simply means that it's that much easier to pull everything in.
the scale along the boom there, one to ten, what does that mean?
well that's for consistency of sail setting.
if you know that for your particular weight and the certain wind strength you want the block next to number four, you keep it like that all the time.
you can always go straight through it, it would be right every time?
yes.
in your enthusiasm to get afloat in a good breeze, it's easy to forget about getting the right sail shape and the effect can be dreadful.
just look at this, the sail is far too full for the conditions, the foot is billowing out and the luff is horribly wrinkled which has got too much power there, it's a bag of wind.
the general rule is if it looks bad, it probably is bad, so let's get it right.
first we tension the foot and then the luff until we get a properly shaped aerofoil.
another classic mistake is to forget to tighten the kitten strap for boom bang.
when you're beating it doesn't matter because the boom is held down by the mainsheet.
if you don't tension the boom bang when you're sailing off wind, the boom will just lift, the sail roll twist and you'll get bags of uncontrollable power.
the way to tighten it is when you're on a beat, just pull it in as the tension is taken by the mainsheet.
what are so special about these racing birds of a ?
the other thing we've got is a ratchet block on the mainsheets.
what does that mean?
i'll tell you.
hear that noise?
aha.
that's a ratchet locking the sheets, so all the load is taken by the block and i'm just holding it.
that means that you can sail for longer.
strong winds without getting tired, so it's a lot more fun.
it's also pretty wet but with the ratchet block taking the strain out of controlling the sail i can concentrate on technique and having fun and respond to the gusts by sheeting in or sheeting out if i'm overpowered and moving bodyweight in or out to suit the .
even with the boat sailing flat a certain amount of spray goes aboard, so get the bailer down to drain the cockpit.
the daggerboard is raised slightly from the same position in lighter winds because the boat's sailing faster.
if the wind drops a bit then you can sit inboard more to keep the boat flat.
this is what sailing is really all about.
it's not a struggle, you're harnessing the elements and having fun.
sailing upwind works the boat over the waves gently.
well it really looks as if you're having a lot of fun out there, john, but you are an expert.
now i'm sure that screaming along with fifteen knot in a force six is really exciting but for a landlubber like myself it's certainly not on.
as i suspect it's not for many of the people here.
well sailing is what you want it to be.
for some of us it's pitting our strength against the elements, for others it's pitting our wits against other people by going racing and yet other people seek adventure by exploring new sailing areas and the beauty of a small sail boat like the topper is that you can do all of these.
in tidal waters like the channel islands, you must find out what the tides are doing.
that means looking up the tide tables to see the times of high and low water and the tidal stream list to find the maximum rates.
in tide free waters like the mediterranean we don't have the same problem but we still need to consult a chart to find out a suitable location for sailing.
that may be affected by the prevailing wind and we'll have to find a suitable launching site.
well this is a beautiful boat.
presumably we can just go and load, rig up and away we go, can we?
well, almost, in this particular bay it's fine, we know it's a public beach, we've checked on the map.
it's a different matter if you're sailing inland because most inland water is owned by somebody.
what about the er winds here?
well here we've got an onshore wind, that's perfect, because we know that if we get into trouble just get blown back ashore.
it's different if the wind's offshore because then it can be deceptively close into the shore and further out bigger waves and if you get into trouble you're lost out to sea.
right well we're all set.
fancy a sail round here suzanne?
i think it sounds pretty good fun, i think we should go for it.
right 
let's go.
let's go.
fun?
doesn't actually seem to be a lot up there, are you sure we've brought everything?
yes, that's the beauty of the topper, we've got the sail in the bowels of the boot and everything else is on the roof.
in fact when i keep my topper at home over the winter, they just lift the whole thing up into the roof of the garage, keeps it right out of the way.
so all we've got to do now is to untie everything and go sailing.
now that you've learnt to sail on your own, the next step is to sail with other people.
that probably means buy a boat and joining a club.
if you are of a competitive nature, most clubs provide the opportunity for you to start racing and there's no faster way into a pretty good technique than by sailing against more experienced people.
if you have no intention of racing, every sailing club offers a safer and supervised area to continue your sailing.
having learnt to sail in a sail boat like the topper you can move on to more complex boats with confidence or continue to exploit the versatility and convenience of this single-hander which has become the best selling sail boat in britain the one design nature of the topper, due to its injection moulded hull, is perfect for racing and secondhand values remain high.
like every other lively class the topper has an owners' association which organizes rallies, open meetings, national and international championships.
i'm beginning to realize why perfectly sane people pitch themselves at the mercy of the elements miles from the security of terra firma,has provided the perfect resort for our first events of the .
thanks to the excellent facilities here at menorca sailing.
thanks also to the r y a and particularly to john .
the r y a beginner's course has certainly got suzanne here sailing with confidence in no time at all.
it certainly has.
well you look as if you're raring to go and show us what you can do, so i'll give you a push up and away you go.
bye 
couple of decades there has been an unparalleled interest in the occult and astrology and satanism, and witchcraft and society at large, on the one hand it worships at the shrine of science and technology and then it turns and pays its cash, and it does pay its cash , and its homage at the signs of the zodiac, and at the other various things dealing wi or are a part of the occult.
almost every newspaper, national newspaper and local free papers, will have er their horoscopes, television and radio chat shows, again, will have their their resident astrologers telephone call lines to find out what the stars have in store for you, an unprecedented interest in the, in the various branches of the occult.
some, few years ago, we were told that we were entering the age of aquarius.
now this was, really, rather a low-key introduction to a whole new way of life that at the moment is sweeping through the united states and is on our doorstep.
not just a religious movement, but something that involves and enmeshes every area of life, from high national, and international politics, right the way down to the very colour of the, of the latest fashions, the new age movement and sometime in the future we're gonna lo , talk a little bit about that.
but there's this, this involvement wi with with occult.
now, it's not then that society doesn't believe in the supernatural, we believe in the supernatural, society at large believes in the supernatural, the tragedy is that the natural man, the natural person however, as always is more willing to believe satan's mysteries than he is to believe god's mysteries.
our priorities get turned inside out, they get inverted.
scientists contend that the principles of natural law that govern our universe cannot be turned aside, you cannot ignore them, they are fixed, they are great things that, that you cannot alter god cannot do anything about them.
and so, when you come to the bible and you read the account of jesus here on the earth, turning the water into wine, of jesus stilling the storm, when you into the old testament and you read accounts there of the children of israel, of the me , of the tremendous miracles that were performed by jehovah, god for them well of course, there's a natural explanation to it, because you can't do these things, there are natural laws that stop you doing them you cannot take a glass of water, even if you're god, you cannot take it and make it into a glass of wine instantly, it's got natural processes to go through.
and of course, when jesus came and he healed the people and he spoke words of, of deliverance to those who are demon oppressed and he spoke words of that brought help to those who are blind and so on , there is of course , er, to the natural mind, a very natural explanation, it can all be explained away because you cannot do these things!
and yet, the same science and the same technology that contends of the inviability of the natural laws, the same time is able to set it, one law against it, another itself, and he can do what he wants.
these same men use one set of laws to cancel the effects of another, for example, the application of the law of aerodynamics, enables them to cancel the effect of the law of gravity, that's why you can go up in an aeroplane.
man can do it, but god is not allowed to do it, he can't do it!
well, let's look for a few moments this morning at one such incident when jesus did do it and it's in er, mark chapter four, i want to read a few verses from there, mark chapter four.
i'm gonna read from verse thirty five, just the paragraph there, the last paragraph in that chapter it says on that day when evening had come jesus said to them let us go over to the other side and leaving the multitude they took him along with them just as he was in the boat and other boats were with them.
and there arose a fierce gale of wind and the waves were breaking over the boat so much that the boat was already filling up and he himself was in the stern asleep on the cushion.
and they awoke him and said to him, teacher do you not care that we are perishing?
and being aroused, he rebuked the wind and said to the sea hush!
be still.
the wind died down and it became perfectly calm.
and he said to them why are you so timid?
how is it that you have no faith?
and they became very much afraid and said to one another who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him ?
jesus had been, with his disciples and he had spent the whole day in teaching and preaching to the people, he'd been explaining to them what the kingdom of god was like, he'd been telling them some of the parables that perhaps we're familiar with, he'd been telling them about the parable of the sewer and the seed, the man who went out and he sewed his seed and different things went wrong birds came and picked up the stuff that fell by the wayside, some fell on stony ground and it couldn't put down any roots, some fell amongst thorns and they were quickly choked, but some did fall in good prepared soil and that grew.
and so jesus had been teaching the people.
and at the end of the day he's tired, he's physically weary, and he says let's get away for a while let's go over to the other side.
now, it's im , that's an important little phrase there what jesus says, let's go to the other side.
he wasn't going for a joy trip, he wasn't going out in the boat just to se to while away an hour or so to relax and to unwind, he wasn't going there to, just to get away from the crowd of people that had been following him and had been listening to him, he had a purpose in going in into the boat, to go to the other side.
we're not gonna be looking at it this morning, but it's quite simple if you were to read on down, the reason why is because on the other side there is a man there who is possessed of a whole legion of demons who desperately needs deliverance and jesus is going over there to bring healing, to bring deliverance to this man.
but it's important, for what we're going to be thinking of this morning to re , keep that little phrase in mind that jesus said to them let us go over to the other side, there was purpose in going into that boat.
and we see in this account, this incident in the life of jesus, that jesus is able to bring peace.
there in the midst of turmoil, in the midst of, of unrest, in the midst of anxiety and fear, in the, in the midst of perplexity these disciples not knowing what to do, where to turn, jesus christ is able to bring peace.
and the good news, the message of the gospel is that jesus christ is still able to do that.
into your life, into my life, he is able to bring peace.
whether we know him or not whether we've never had any dealings with him in the past or not, he is able to bring peace once we allow him to come in and to take control of the situation.
but even if we've known him for many years, if we're committed christians, if we've been followers of jesus, there are occasions, there are times in our life when there is turmoil and there is unrest and if we allow him to se , to take control he is able to bring peace.
so th let's look then back at this illustration for a moment, this incident, jesus then gets er a few of his disciples and they go out, in the boat, and there are others who follow him, they get into their boats quite likely, quite possibly that many of the others would have been followers of jesus, some of his other disciples, it's unlikely in these very small little er lakeside fishing boats that many of disciples would have got in, there might have been four or five of them that would have been about the lot and so the others would have got into some of the other boats which were nearby and, and others are the people that had been listening to jesus, they too get into boats, and they pull out following him, wanting to hear if he's got anything more to say, wanting to witness anything else that he's gonna do, they wanna be there to see and to hear what jesus has to say and is going to do.
and whilst they're sailing across this little lake there in the evening a sudden storm blows up, now in the version of the bible that i'm reading from it says there that, er that is was a fierce storm , other versions will er, give different e , different expressions, it was a fierce, sorry, a fierce gale of wind.
er, some some translations will put it tha that, that a, that a great storm blew up, but he word that is originally used there is the wi i , conveys the idea that this is no ordinary storm, this is just a, a sudden squall that has blown and in a, in a short while will blow itself out again, but it's a strong word that's used here, a word that would, that would denote a whirlwind or a tempest, something above and beyond the ordinary course of events that these disciples, many of them experience fisherman, would have known and been able to cope without any problem.
so whilst they're sailing across, everything is calm, everything is peaceful, and suddenly there arose this fierce gale, this this tempest!
so much so that the waves were crashing over the boat, and the boat was filling up with water.
and these disciples and jesus, some of them seasoned, experienced fishermen, they'd been fishermen all their lives, their fathers had been fishermen before them and they were frightened!
they had never experienced anything like this before.
and we find that life is not all plain sailing.
life is not just sailing through on a mill pond with sort of red sails in the sunset and that idyllic picture, life is not like that.
but life has its storms, it has its tempests, and some of them are a lot fiercer than others.
fearful storms sometimes come along our way and we we wonder what is happening to us and we feel that we're being thrown around and tossed about from side to side, there seems no way out!
there's seems to be no possible escape.
and you have to start questioning.
and that's just what these disciples did, they started questioning, what's he doing there?
we're working here.
we're gonna die!
and there is jesus asleep.
well we don't perhaps quite use that sort of language, but we start saying, well where is god in all this?
if there is a god of love why doesn't he see my situation?
if there is a god of love, a god who cares then why doesn't he do something about it?
why doesn't help me?
why doesn't make a way of escape for me?
where is this god of love when i'm going through this situation?
now that's a question that we can all come up with at times, whether we're christians or non-christians, we come up and we question, where is god in this situation?
why doesn't he do something about it?
if he is there, if there is a god, can he not do something?
why can't he help me?
as i said, life is not all plain sailing, there are troubles, there are storms and some of them are very fierce and some of them would cause us to, to wonder if there is an escape.
now that doesn't matter whether we're christians or not christians, that is the course of life, that happens to every one of us.
becoming a christian is not the solution and the answer and the th the grand elixir , it solves all of life's problems, it takes away all the difficulties.
jesus christ never ever made that claim, in fact he said, before you follow me, count the cost.
weigh up what it will cost you to commit your life to me.
it's not an escape route from all your troubles and all your problems, it's not an escape route from all the difficulties and all the unpleasant things in life, it's not a pathway of ease and of, of in , of un paralleled bliss and enjoyment day after day.
the sun will not always shine on you.
jesus said before you follow me, count the cost.
weigh it all up.
but don't be a fair weather man.
don't be a fair weather follower .
and when the difficulty gets going, gets hard you turn back, he says don't do that.
but before you start, count the cost.
he said that a man who's gonna build a, build something, let's put it in a modern setting, the man who's gonna, a man and woman, a couple are gonna put an extension on their house, they don't just go down and buy a few dozen bricks, er, and a bag cement and start, they work out how much it's gonna cost them first of all.
you see, they might have enough for that first barrel load of bricks, and the first bag of cement and sand but perhaps the money will run out shortly after that?
and they've got is just a, perhaps a a, a few courses of brickwork.
they might even get half the wall up, but that's as far as their capital goes.
he says no, he says any man wanting to build an extension on his house, he's gonna sit down and gonna count the cost of it.
he's gonna see how much it's gonna cost him in pounds and pence.
he's then gonna look at his bank account and see if he can afford it or not.
and he'll only start the job if he can afford it, that's if he's a wise man.
and jesus says so count the cost of following me.
now jesus wasn't saying this to stop people following him.
not at all!
he wanted them to follow him.
but he did not want them to follow him under any false delusion.
he didn't want them to follow him thinking that he was just a free ride, a free ticket for all their problems a and difficulties.
as the bible says, in the world you have you will have persecution, you will have difficulties, you will have problems.
there are the problems of life which are common to every one of us, whether they're christian or not christian, whether we believe in god or not, there are problems and difficulties and, and situations that are, they're the common lot of humanity.
we all know suffering, we all know grief, we all know bereavement.
but jesus says, weigh up the costs, balance the account.
and so we've said life is it's gonna bring us problems, it's gonna bring us storms, it's tempests, and some of them are gonna be very, very fierce!
but you know, for the person who does not know jesus christ as their saviour, for the person who has never committed their life to god listen to what god says for that person.
he says, the wicked are like the tossing sea, and you know, as far the bible is concerned, the wicked is not necessarily the man or the woman who does terrible deeds, the wicked is not necessarily who is, who is a murderer, or a child molesterer , or a thief or or or a wife beater or something like that, the wicked is the person who rejects god, who turns their back on god, who says thank you, i can go through my life without, i don't need you, i don't even believe you exist, and even if i do believe you exist i'm gonna do things my way, i'm gonna go through life as i choose.
and god says the wicked are like the tossing sea, for it cannot be quiet, and it's waters toss up refuse and mud.
there is no peace says my god for the wicked.
that's the word of god through isaiah the prophet.
there is no peace for the wicked.
for the person who rejects and spurns god.
who, wants to go through life by themself. , doesn't mean to say that all the kind of life is one big storm, not at all!
david the psalmist, he could see the wicked, and he said why do they prosper?
why do i have a hard time, and there's the godless person prospering?
he said but david only saw the surface.
and you know, the surface is not all i , you look out on the sea, and it looks like the proverbial mill pond, it's calm, it's barely a ripple of water but it's not still.
i remember many years ago, we had friends who had a fishing boat, er herring drifter, and in fraserburgh the there's a young lad going out with them for a night's fishing and it was a beautiful summer's night!
and the sea was, it was as calm as the mill pond.
i've never been as sea sick in all my life!
because you see that surface water,it was only surface water , because when that boat was drifting there was an awful lot of movement.
it was, it was going from side to side.
it was going up and down.
there was a lot of movement under those first few inches of surface water.
and that's the picture that, god through isaiah uses.
and this particular it, it maybe all nice and calm on the surface, but underneath there is a whole maelstrom of, of of agitation.
that's what it says, it brings up the mud and the refuse.
that comes from the se , the seabed churning it up but the sea is never still, it's tossing and in, as the movement there underneath, although it may appear calm on the surface, but there are times when it's not calm on the surface, it's as rough on top as it is underneath.
most of you won't remember the time, and i certainly don't, some of you will, you'll be familiar with the er, healing accounts, seeing pictures on, er either in magazines or on the television news, in in old news reels, of that time when neville chamberlain stepped out of an aeroplane, and he's just been to germany and, and had a meeting with hitler.
he comes back with a little piece of paper in his hand waving it, peace in our time.
the scrap of paper, and you know the,th the result of that, and you know the conclusion of it all.
the whole world in, in a matter of months is engulfed in the, in the horrors of the second world war!
oh it looked good on the surface but underneath it was dark and peaceful.
and your life can be like that.
it looks alright on the surface, you're not going through a hassle at the moment, and our memories are short, fortunately and once we come into a calm patch the hassles of yesterday are quickly forgotten.
we were just enjoying the calm and the peace of today.
but underneath there are those hassles, and those, those agitations.
and jesus, he meant to come and bring peace.
they say peace, it doesn't just go on the top two inches of the surface water, it goes right to the very depths of your life and keeps .
one occasion jesus said, my peace, to his disciples shortly before he left, my peace i leave with you.
i don't give, what the world gives, i do it .
i don't give something i haven't got, i don't give something i've no right to give, i'm not giving you something just for , i'm giving you my peace.
and there was never a time when the life of jesus is not shaping us.
you go through all sorts of situations and circumstances but there is a peace and an equilibrium it wasn't just on the surface, it was right to the very depths of his being the whole being.
but you say, but i am a christian, i've experienced god's peace, i've accepted jesus christ as my saviour.
i love the lord!
i seek to serve him!
but there are still those raging storms that come.
there are still those tempests that hit my life and would not be around, and would almost swamp me!
well there is a difference you see, there is a difference.
and the big difference for these disciples, was that they were not alone.
though you're going through the storm but jesus is in the boat with you.
there is the difference for the person who has put their trust in god who has committed their life to christ and they will go and you and i will go through those storms, and through those tempests, and be knocked around and be, almost swamped by them but the thing is we are not alone jesus christ, he is in the boat of your life with you.
he says, i will never leave you.
i will never forsake you.
let me come into the book of hebrews and those words he uses are actually, to be underlined and emphasized.
cos in the literary, i will never, never leave you!
i will never, never forsake you!
he promises that which is i will lead you till the end of the age.
and jesus was there with them.
and that made all the difference for them.
and they turn to him, and he speaks a word that brings deliverance.
and he gets up and sees the situation and remember, he said, jesus wasn't out for joy ride, he wasn't just passing an evening relaxing and unwinding and resting away from the crowd, he had gone into the boat for a purpose, he was going to the other side, and no storm was gonna stop him getting there!
there was a man there who desperately needed deliverance!
he was possessed with a whole legion of demons!
he was, he was,th they they took him, they chained him up, and they let him loose in the local cemetery, and left him there.
you can imagine the population of th , of a nearby town, every now and again they would come down and perhaps throw some food over in this man's direction a loaf of bread, a, a a a a a a, a hunk of meat or, some other food every now and again so he would keep alive.
but he ranted and raged and rampaged through the local cemetery.
so they tied him with chains but the demonic powers were so great in his life that he snapped them like new cords.
here was a man who desperately needed jesus!
and jesus was going across to the other side to look for this man.
and no storm was gonna stop him.
and the disciples didn't know that of course.
they were just concerned for themselves.
we're gonna per perish!
we're gonna die!
so jesus when he sees their situation, he's not concerned by the storm by the way, he's not put out by that because he knows he's going to the other side, but for the sake of them he gets up and he speaks the word, jesus he said, peace.
be still.
be muzzled!
silence !
he speaks that word of command and the wind ceases, it really is howling.
the seas calm.
and the disciples are happy once again.
and jesus asked them a question, he says to them, why are you so timid?
how is it that you have no faith?
and j b phillips in his paraphrase he puts that last question like this, what has happened to your faith?
you see, it wasn't that they had no faith, they had faith we were saying the other week when we were dealing with this, we all have faith it's what we do with it.
they had faith, their faith was in themselves and in bailing out, and they couldn't bail quick enough, and so their faith was not realizing anything it wasn't producing the goods.
they had had faith, they had seen jesus perform miracles, they had seen him heal the sick, they had seen him give sight to the blind, they had seen some of the tremendous things that jesus had done.
they'd been there at the wedding, when the wine, that water had been turned into wine.
they had, they had witnessed him casting out demons, they had heard his teaching, they were familiar with jesus, they had every reason to be, to have faith in him, he says, what has happened to your faith?
and very soon they were , he said a moment ago they had taken it from jesus, they were no longer trusting in him, and they started to trust in themselves in their own ability.
you see, as long as things were happening their faith was riding high.
as long as the miracles were flowing, as long as the sight er er was given to the blind people, as long as the lame were walking, as long as th the lepers were being cleansed, they had faith ten feet tall!
well when you see things like that happening you can afford to have faith ten feet tall!
it's not difficult to believe!
and yes certainly, you and i can be like that.
when everything is going fine for us, and god is in quote, blessing us, when our life is flowing smoothly, it's easy then to have faith, it's easy then to trust, but do you know, those disciples in that boat, they were no safer after jesus stilled the storm than beforehand.
their safety had not increased one little bit granted, they were more comfortable and granted, they were enjoying themselves more, they felt better, but they were no safer.
during the past two or three generations there have been, there has been this, this idea of god's favour being expressed in blessing.
very often, we'd link that blessing with material things, the physical things, the healing, the prosperity you know god's blesses us just because i'm sick, he heals me.
i can't find that in god's word.
it's not there.
that is not an evidence of his blessing.
you see if that's how we're to judge blessing then what are we to say to people, to men like c t stard who sacrificed an inheritance that in today's value, just in the early part of this century, but in today's value be worth millions of pounds to go to the congo, and to china, and to india?
in later le li years leaving his wife behind him cos she was unable to go, and going to serve his god therein, where is the blessing in that if this is how we take god's blessing?
or what are we gonna say to men like hudson taylor there in china buried his wife, and buried his daughter, and son.
and judson in burma burying his whole family within a few short years of getting there.
men like jim elliott who in seek of the taking of good news of the gospel to the indians becomes, as a young man, a martyr.
to men like teddy hobson who in his whole life serving the the of the congolese ends up as a martyr.
he was cannibalized.
where is god's blessing in that?
if we equate god's blessing with the nice things that happen to us then they were not blessed!
and they've given far more than but you or i will ever contemplate doing for god!
and yet, is that blessing?
is that what it really means?
is that what the bible means by being blessed by god?
let me read you two or three verses the bible has to say about blessing, first of all, the verse in the book of proverbs proverbs chapter ten, verse twenty two.
it sets the scene perhaps for it said it is the blessing of the lord that makes rich and he adds no sorrow to it .
and we read that and we start thinking of richness in the terms of pounds and pence and material possessions.
of course, it's nothing to do with that.
but as jesus said, a man's life does not consist in the, in the abundance of the things he possesses, that's not how you gauge your person's richness.
it's not how many stocks and shares they've got, it's not what the size of their balance is, how much they've got on deposit account, how much credit, how credit worthy they are, that is not the richness of a man or a woman.
here the wise man says, the blessing of god, it makes a person rich and it does not bring sorrow with it.
it's a strange verse.
put it to the back of your mind a moment please.
as i turn in to the book of genesis i read there of god coming to abraham, and saying to abraham,that abraham in your family all the nations of the world are gonna be blessed !
how is that blessing gonna come?
it comes through the messiah.
it blessed the for abraham, the messiah.
jesus.
because we become middle class?
because we've become better off?
of course not!
we are blessed in him because he gave his life for us.
that is the source of god's blessing.
not in getting, but rather in giving.
the apostle paul when he's writing to the corinthians in his first letter to them, one corinthians .
well what is this?
what's the definition?
i suppose if i come around and ask each one of us this morning, can you give a definition?
i'm writing a dictionary and i'm stuck on a word, i want the definition of blessing.
and i suppose for every person here, there would be a i would say a similar, but a different er definition.
there'd be a lot of similarity to it, and i think if we're honest a lot of it would come back to things.
well let's see what god himself has to say cos he gives us a definition of blessing.
gives it to us in psalm a hundred and thirty three and it's in the last verse.
he is talking about god people being in unity.
and he says, as a result of them being in unity, dwelling together in unity, he says it is there that the lord commanded the blessing.
whatever that is!
and it gives the blessing for what it is.
life forever.
that is god's blessing!
that is god's blessing to you.
that is god's blessing on me.
it's not, how i prosper financially.
it's not, whether i'm in good health.
it's not whether,a , whether i've all my little itty-bitty prayers answered.
god's blessing to me is life forever.
that's his blessing to you.
it's not making a list.
it's not giving you total health, and free you from all sickness and diseases.
it's not answering all your prayers.
it's not making your life easy.
it is giving you life forever!
that is the blessing!
that is his big parcel he's given to you.
it's wrapped up in a .
, thanks be unto god for his unspeakable gift!
the gift of god is eternal life through jesus christ our lord.
those disciples, they had the storm stilled for them and it got easier sailing.
it was plain sailing then to the other side.
they were more comfortable, it was a, it was a more enjoyable journey, and let's be honest if i can go through life without hassles and without problems my life will be more enjoyable, of course it and these difficulties, and these storms coming away, coming your way your life will be more enjoyable.
but like the disciples, it will not be any better, or any safer.
their safety did not depend on the storm being still.
their security and safety depended on jesus being with them.
that was it!
your safety, and your security and my safety and security in life does not depend on how pleasant my ways are and how pleasant my paths are how much i manage to amass, and how i can overcome all the little difficulties and problems and steer clear of the big ones the security and safety of my life, now and in eternity,security is there in the boat and lying with him.
see, the real peace is not the stilling of the storm the real peace is that the assurance of who is going to stop it.
that's the promise to your eternal life.
i will never leave you.
you don't understand the circumstances, you don't understand the storm i might , i might not leave that to me he says i will be with you.
i will never leave you.
i will never forsake you even to the end of the .
well let's see
come in.
hello.
oh.
now then.
what's the trouble today?
oh.
the whole family i'm afraid but er 
out of the way.
out of the way.
sit over there by the .
that stomach of hers is causing her er diarrhoea and sickness 
right.
and erm she's had it for a couple of days but we thought she was getting over it this morning.
basically she's been giving her diarralite 
and now she's i mean she's 
she can't even keep water down doctor so she's certainly not gonna keep that down.
right.
cos she's had it since wednesday.
what the doctor.
hello.
hello?
the doctor.
has your dad not been 
she's 
well either?
no.
but i recover quickly that's all.
i've had it bad.
i've got out me bed to come up here.
mm.
right.
let's have a look at your tummy to see what you've poor 
old tummy.
she's very erm 
fractious.
i think she's .
you're alright darling.
when er just before she's sick
it's pains in her stomach.
she's i mean obviously er erm i mean she's com complaining of a sore tummy.
she's able to but
but she's not had the diarrhoea and i have.
oh no.
thank goodness.
well i didn't get diarrhoea with it i just got sickness.
she's gonna get the diarrhoea.
really?
yeah.
she's sore round here.
she screams when she's sick.
mm.
i know the feeling.
mm.
she's .
yeah but she's, she's going to, she's gonna have diarrhoea because you can feel 
mm.
i think that's what wrong.
she's not been.
and nothing, nothing coming through.
right.
oh.
er she can't keep the diarralite down?
she's not keeping anything down.
right.
mm.
she's what a year and a half now?
she's just under two doctor.
she's just t coming up two .
how long's this gonna last?
this?
not much longer.
now do you have any er ice lollies?
no.
any ice-cream?
yeah we have.
yeah.
yeah.
right.
teaspoonful of ice-cream and just p have you any, anything that y you can dip it in?
yeah.
and just dip it in and let her suck it.
don't let her take any great amount of it.
just a little with her tongue.
mhm.
just to give her stomach something to work on
mhm.
yeah.
without overloading it cos 
mm.
if you overload it, you'll get it all back.
mm.
yeah.
a small amount table jelly ice-cream, ice lolly.
anything like that .
anything like that.
mhm.
yeah.
anything you can break up, and just give 
aye.
her a very small amount.
same with yourself.
just a very very small amount.
just take it just let it melt in your mouth.
you don't, don't need to take i enough to have a mouthful or anything.
mhm.
just a, don't go buying lucozade, don't go buying
mm.
anything like that.
mm.
cos it won't make any difference.
there's nothing 
in there that there isn't in straight lemonade.
yeah.
mhm.
right.
er every now and again a wee sugar cube.
open her mouth and just let her suck it.
give her a bit of energy.
yeah.
build up her strength.
build up her strength.
but just anything cold anything goes down very easily.
aha.
just take it they don't have any problem with it.
yeah.
a small teaspoonful of this stuff
yeah.
just in the corner of her mouth.
don't force it down, just in the corner of her mouth.
she'll swallow that down nice and gently and it'll coat her tummy and it will gradually work its way through into the bowel and quieten them down as well.
is this the medicine you're giving her?
yes.
yes.
ju as long as you don't overload her.
this is 
aha.
this is the one thing that 
her system can't stand.
it's when they retch er
that's right.
they try to empty what it is in their stomach and it 
right.
just comes out.
that's what i was doing last night.
yeah.
well just out to the shop and get some ice-cream or make a table jelly when you go home.
mhm.
and just have a little of it every half hour?
every hour?
if you feel like it.
aha.
it doesn't matter what the flavour is whether it's strawberry, orange anything.
okay.
er quite a good thing is this er sorbet stuff.
yeah.
mhm.
it's nice is that.
it has a tang, so that youngsters particularly, quite, quite like the taste of it because they don't taste anything all their taste buds
mm.
if you look at her tongue.
pure white.
mm.
her taste buds are all covered.
can't taste anything.
yeah.
but if you can get them with just a, an orange or a lemon sorbet.
just a wee drop of that instead of the ice-cream 
mhm.
they can taste it.
mhm.
yeah.
she hasn't been eating and that's unusual 
no.
for her.
no.
aye.
no.
they they 
they don't .
this, this, this bug we've got it's causing the pains?
yes.
oh aye.
gives, gives her the cramps all the way across here.
yeah.
all the way across here.
that's it.
yeah.
mhm.
that's why there's two or three minutes and then sick.
aye.
that's what i had last 
or we have diarrhoea.
night.
yeah.
yeah.
aye.
we either have, we either have sickness or we have diarrhoea or .
i had both.
yeah..
well i'm, i'm the only one actually.
i've had both.
yeah.
aye.
we maybe jus just haven't got it severe cos you've just had that operation .
i've just come out of hospital.
what have you been doing?
i had a prolapse bad.
so the retching was worrying me a bit.
well 
cos i've still got stitches.
you get started on, on the ice-cream and the
i was just coming up to scotland for a holiday .
i'm not coming here any more.
what with the weather and this i'm going home 
again.
i'll tell you the weather down south is just as bad.
i know.
we left it didn't we?
right.
and 
i was listening to the radio when i was out in the car this morning and it's coming down
same over it's just coming across the country isn't it?
it is.
if she gets any worse doctor?
no she won't.
no.
no problem.
you think it's this bug?
no problem.
yeah.
aye.
and if you give her, just stick her to small amounts for the next couple of days
yeah.
and 
okay.
yeah.
don't, don't force her that's the big secret 
yeah.
because if you force them at all,it doesn't work .
thanks very much doctor.
there's that.
right.
thank you very much.
you'd best carry her then pete.
no problem.
thank you.
bye bye.
bye bye.
bye bye.
she's 
bye.
thanks a lot.
okay.
bye.
bye now.
number twenty two
you er you need to tell the assembly thank you.
one one four nine moderator is it possible or legal at all to insert a completely new twenty two?
simply in light of the the vote that we've just been held?
i'd like simply to ask the assembly to simply reaffirm that we are indeed a christian church, a christian trinitarian church to father son and holy ghost, the gods whom we adore why do we sing this every time if there are a number of members in this assembly who are no longer able to completely agree with such a sentiment moderator?
i move that the
mr mr i think it's implicit in our own nature and in our own character and a known fact that we are constituted here as a general assembly and we indeed ascribe to that and i don't think we need to affirm it on a lower level of what is in fact the very standard of our existence here er in a general assembly.
i can assure you of that.
number twenty two approved.
number twenty three thank you yes bishop please come forward.
i'm delighted to welcome you i'm sure you'll be at home with one accord being sung on sunday night.
one two eight nine.
i have arrived, i have been given a number by the church of scotland
i might suggest that you too have arrived, i have answered your roll call.
and indeed it's a sign of the times that i speak not with a mitre metaphorically upon my head but perhaps the glengarry of the convenorship of the central council of acts and therefore i am in part your servant here.
and it really is to to promote a couple of the initiatives of your instrument that i stand here.
first of all i would like to bring to your attention the regional ecumenical teams.
at every stage of the interchurch process we were hearing voices saying to us it is not sufficient that there should be fellowship, agreement, companionship, cooperation at the highest levels but it had to be found at every level, it had to be found at grass roots level.
and the meeting of the acts' central council has recently had a report from its local and regional unity er committee proposing that a network of regional ecumenical teams should be established throughout scotland to further the cooperation and joint commitment of congregations and church members in each area.
this proposal was enthusiastically approved by the central council of acts and has been well received by member churches which are appointing local representatives for each of the forty six areas.
these areas as you might recognize, are the presbytery areas of scotland as these areas seem to be most closely allied to natural and civic boundaries.
now the presbyterian church as the church of scotland enjoys a unique place in scottish life and its structures it has a privileged place but i would suggest to you it has also therefore a number of responsibilities and one, i would suggest in this case, is to try and ensure that these local regional teams are in place.
i think it would be most appropriate for the local representatives of the church of scotland, since the areas are presbyteries, to take the initiative or to give that encouragement without which these local teams will not find a place.
the second thing that i would like to recommend to you on behalf of the instrument acts is the scottish christian gathering which will take place this year from friday the twenty sixth of june to sunday the twenty eighth of june at saint andrew's college .
it is according to the book, which is our sort of bible on the matter, for celebration and vision, for fellowship, exploration and discernment of opportunities and tasks with broad participation from all member churches and others to amplify and strengthen the whole movement of acts.
you will notice it is a yellow card also er it is somewhat larger than the other one which was flaunted earlier before us and the good news is that you've got, each one of you, a copy of this in your cubbyholes.
could i just conclude moderator by saying that those who are engaged in acts the churches which are participating members of this action of churches together in scotland are engaged in a journey together.
the imaginations of each church and indeed s of the several members perhaps shape differently the goal that lies ahead.
but we must be sure that, however shaped in our imagination that goal is, it must be inspired by our lord's own will for his church praying that his disciples would be one as he and the father are one.
and it seems to me that that oneness, that that unity is pneumatic in character.
it is based on the holy spirit.
and it is for us surely to open ourselves without prejudice to the shape that it will take in the future.
i think we can say that if it is pneumatic in character, the shape will be organic.
for the moment we move forward believing that we are going in a direction to which we have already been prompted, and in the confidence that the holy spirit is working among us.
thank you.
i'm delighted bishop you took the opportunity to so address us and it underlines our benefit in being able to have our delegates participate in our debates and discussions.
thank you for your contribution.
i put to the assembly deliverance number twenty three approved.
deliverance number twenty four thank you.
three three five.
i am s one that has just been recently appointed to one of these er regional ecumenical teams and at a meeting that was held for the three presbytery areas in the sort of west coast of scotland, around the greenoch area, erm it was, it became apparent that all these people who are being appointed er through their, their churches are in the main clergy and the convenor of the local committee himself a ruling elder of the church of scotland expressed concern about this, that there is no real er and i would just put it to the, to the assembly, there is there is no need for these members to be members of the clergy, in fact it would be good if presbyteries remembered when making a nomination eh that it, er it needn't be, it could be a, a an elder or indeed er a lay person holding no particular office within the church.
that would sustain what eh bishop has just referred to, the grass roots of, of this movement.
twenty four approved then?
thank you.
twenty five local involvement number twenty six twenty seven yes?
reverend eleven twenty six.
i've read number twenty seven says draw attention to the possibilities for church members to take part in overseas and exchange visits and i would simply like to do that.
yesterday a minister from an urban priority area er while er welcoming the thought of a an urban priority area fund or urban and rural priority area fund, said that people were at least as important as money in many situations.
none of us can doubt the economic plight of many of the countries where our mission partners work but the relationship of people is every bit as important and visits play a large part in that.
a small group er from my own parish went to india two and a half years ago to visit our missionary partner.
she had visited us many times over a nu number of years and said it was our turn to visit her and we just laughed.
us go to darjeeling?
but eventually she persuaded us she meant it and we went and it was an invaluable experience meeting not only our missionary partner but the people among whom she lives and and works and has done for many years.
the warmth of the welcome from the girls in the school hostel would have gladdened anyone's heart.
they were not well off and they didn't welcome us because we had brought gifts they simply welcomed us because we had had the interest to go and see them and talk to them.
we enjoyed their music and shared their worship and we came back changed and enriched and i commend number twenty seven to everyone's attention.
thank you moderator.
number twenty seven approved?
thank you.
number twenty eight approved.
i've got a new number, twenty nine, and you'll find that on the pale blue papers page number sixty five the first notice of i put number twenty nine to the general assembly is that approved?
number thirty approved.
number thirty one approved the deliverance as a whole and as amended, approved.
now before we move further i'd like to take this opportunity of expressing on your behalf our thanks to hugh here for the service that he's rendered our church to this point in time but particularly as the convenor of the board of world mission and unity.
hugh you've been minister of the parish of inverleith here in edinburgh for the past seventeen years, and i understand you were one of the very first vice convenors of the board when it was set up eight years ago having already served the church on the former interchurch relations committee.
you were born in india on the mission field and through your family's experience and your own you've brought to the convenorship of the board a great personal interest in the overseas church and in international affairs.
for several years here in edinburgh you have been the presbytery's world mission and unity convenor and then you became the convenor of the board's local involvement committee which links our congregations to people who work overseas in churches there with whom they serve.
as the convenor of the board since nineteen eighty eight you have visited the european work of the board in rotterdam, in paris, in budapest and in prague also in israel and egypt and you have represented the board at meetings of the world alliance of reformed churches .
hugh you have shown throughout all of your work a deep concern for the people working abroad for our partner churches and for our ecumenical relations and the need to keep these matters to the fore of the church and also of our country.
hugh you and i share the gift of a very unusual christian name.
i understand it's the only way in which these letters are arranged in the anglosaxon language and is often used as an example of such.
it's a very difficult name at times to live up to i'm sure because the word hugh literally means mind or soul and it is important that we seek indeed to live up to what our names mean.
you have certainly applied your mind to the work of the board and you have encouraged its vision and its direction through your intellectual gifts and perceptions and insights.
and you've also brought your soul to bear on the work of the board and the work of the church.
within the assembly council i personally valued your contributions the very courteous and thoughtful way in which you presented these and the courage with which you expressed at times the stand that you had to take for the interest of the board.
and yet above that and beyond that what you were seeking to do was not just to serve the board of world mission and unity, it was to serve what you believed was the good and right for the church of god which you have sought to serve and to support and to take further.
for that contribution, and for that depth of spirituality within yourself which you have brought to bear for the benefit of the work of this board and for that of our whole church, we want to thank you very much indeed this morning.
i'm delighted and i'm sure you'll be delighted to hear the advice of the business convenor that we suspend at this point in time.
and we, we recons we, we, we we come back to continue our meeting at two o'clock this afternoon.
we adjourn until two o'clock.
she's been dead four years.
oh!
it was, it was bad that she used to those draws that bad that after so long you'd see him go all white and then you'd gradually see round the crutch then so, more 
yeah but
right!
i 
and then all of a sudden after so long you saw a new alf.
mm.
but, you never there's never a pair of underpants.
you might see a pair of long johns, then long johns, and a pair of socks, but paul said they've opened windows and trevor said it's nearly knocked him off the ladder.
he said to paul, you've done, cos, i think first time he painted it, paul, he had to paint it wi windows shut, they wouldn't open window.
no?
no.
so i said to paul, well you've done well getting windows open.
and even nets are down.
but ah, i've gone in and opened it, it stinks.
urgh!
urgh!
well how do people live like that?
i mean bloody erm, axminster carpets all the way through.
well it was fitted out 
well who buys that, social?
no.
they bought it all cash.
when, when, when they bought that house they paid cash for it.
oh i thought in there.
no!
oh!
they sold a farm.
oh!
and, bought it cash and it were show house.
but 
yeah.
they bought all curtains and carpet, and carpet and i don't think it's altered.
it's same in here, right through the room and all the way to the up the stairs, and it's all axminster.
all curtains are er anderson.
very nice.
mm mm.
and wallpaper , oh she's papered every, painted and papered every room in there.
and i were laughing weren't i?
social services or somebody to do with or somewhere contacted him and asked him to do it but they paid all cash.
mm mm!
and they did every room cos his er sister used to work in homebase be it rich 
and very, very rich, she's 
yeah.
back part time now i think my mum 
is she?
said.
and what did they call her?
now she's alright.
now she, she picked the paper.
used to live down the back of us.
but she's moved.
she 
she picked all the paper.
but they pa he painted, he papered every room .
really?
mm mm.
i mean, they've just had a new double glazed back door put on.
and that, but then one morning i we 
but it doesn't look, it doesn't look double glazed does it?
no.
one morning i was off up bambury lane and john was waiting to catch paul to come some trust or, i don't know whether it's social or what, bought a detached house on bambury lane cos there were an uproar.
cos mick started all this up there.
and it was done through a trust then, and it was done so quietly that they hadn't time to object.
mm.
and mentally handicapped live in this house.
well they do object.
but they've turned this four, five bedroomed detached house, you know, it's got a ramp now up to the front door, the front door's been altered so
mm mm.
so we made each what was the dining room they've made into a bedroom, but just don't that he, cos you could see them doing it.
mm mm.
and all that.
in fact, tony 's brother, freddie, he's there but johnny was still outside working and he was filthy!
bet if i took his jacket off and put it in that washer it'd of fallen to bits cos it was that mucky.
urgh!
oh i thought he was like that.
arnie was playing football.
they've gone football match at club.
so that'll be another pile of bloody washing!
yeah.
i've got all mine out to dry .
take them upstairs.
not that i normally carry 
hey!
have they mentioned anything about easter eggs?
say if they haven't.
mhm.
what?
about a month or, well a fortnight ago.
when i rang up to say i were coming i asked them did they want easter eggs or did they want fa er a box of chocolates or bars of chocolate we 
ah!
i know.
that's it.
yeah.
or do they want money or er
you mean you've got to take it 
spend too much money on them.
done with .
i mean, he went to worcester yesterday but he hadn't got enough clothes.
mm.
he took twelve pound fifty.
i mean he'd ha he had a pack up but they had to have money to buy ra 
postcards.
in case they went in this museum.
it was to compare a seaside town with a market town or summat.
and .
you've got that going down there haven't you?
yeah.
thought you had !
why?
because that's about broad yorkshire.
even if i try to change the tone of my voice.
malcolm's got a .
i shouldn't think so.
i think my wants in my bag.
compare a seaside town, then they'll look at the roman .
urgh!
don't put in yvonne's.
i can can slag everybody off now can't i?
yeah i think they said
you can, cos nobody knows what you're saying anyway.
erm i think they said to me bar of i'll say bars of judy, if it's any different i'll let you know.
mm.
is there any chocolate they don't like?
do they like not like it with nuts in or like that?
they like whispas.
they like er cadbury's whole nut.
because if my mother ever buys me a bar i'll to stop it.
yeah?
mm.
and yet arthur was a the other way on.
they don't like mars bars.
well andrew doesn't.
he gets sick on mars bars.
what else do they like?
i know they like biscuits.
e aero.
secret.
well
no i tried 
well th they're horrible!
i tried one.
ooh!
have you tried the new pyramint?
yeah.
for my 
i know 
birthday.
now 
well yeah, but
yeah but the new not the triangle it's a bar.
oh is it?
mm.
but you buy a bar.
well it'll taste the same won't it?
no it don't.
don't it?
you know, the pyramint that you bought in the little box with 
mm.
like a cream inside?
mm mm.
well the pyramint bars are like a truffle.
oh!
peppermint truffle.
yeah.
quite sickly.
you only get four pieces for thirty p.
ooh!
but you've had enough.
yeah.
i have some chocolate though.
i'm on a diet again.
this year i went to and 
oh!
you've been.
i bet 
yeah.
it's brilliant.
eva came.
yeah.
eva rung up thursday morning, mum wanted her hair permed before he, when eva rung up thursday morning, could she do it thursday night?
so i said, yeah.
so when i came in from collecting my answer monies and what have you, erm eva said new restaurant for you to try doreen.
what?
she says, ali carver, she said they'd been to that last saturday night with a couple from and she said they paid fifteen pound just them
mm.
and that was, starter, main course, pudding, coffee, lot.
only fifteen.
there was erm
well we had a what, we had what they call the banquet which was fifteen pound a head.
well, she said that they 
the set, the set meal
oh it might have been eight pounds.
hang on.
it might have been eight pound qui judy, but she said that they had fifteen 
the banquet isn't shown on here.
that
was it good then?
food wise it put paul's place to shame.
that's not surprising though.
oh yeah.
that's not bad though.
for three, thirty six pounds.
it's twelve pound a head.
yeah.
various.
king prawn, mushrooms,
that one works out at, what is it?
ele eleven pound 
eleven.
there and that's thirteen 
thirteen.
but, after that they're all twelve pound a head.
but we had the erm banquet which was fifteen pound a head, and that included your sweet and everything.
whereas those don't include a sweet.
no, including that.
oh it were beautiful!
what just you and malcolm?
it's a, no!
there were ten of us.
mal and steve and alan and joyce and and gloria and oh, i can't even say the name and keith and anne.
ah!
thirty one .
we were saying mike that er
eva said it had taken them nearly a month to get booked up.
for a saturday night.
sylvia had rung up me about booking for a meal and i thought, originally they talked about going a friday night, and they said, friday and saturday are fully booked for the next five weeks.
eva said it had taken to wait a month to get in for a saturday night.
for a thursday night we could book almost straight away.
during the week you can get in
well that's it, market day int it?
yeah.
yeah i noticed that.
well they can do then.
yeah.
we had er various er, is it won ton?
won tons like little pancakes?
they're like little parcels.
ah!
cos at paul's 
with prawn in.
place, er whe when margaret and i went we had 
i think 
them and they came had this little pancakes were dishes of er there was a dish of the sauce that 
mm.
you put on and then 
yeah.
there were dishes of chopped up spring onion and all like that and you put your own mixture int middle and then rolled it up.
ah!
but they're won tons.
no this,thi this was 
but same.
this was like little parcels
oh.
of i don't know 
crispy won ton.
yeah.
and it was real crisp and it had prawn in it.
prawns and something in th maybe th prawn toasts with sesame seed.
prawn toast with sesame seed.
yeah.
yeah.
er that's what 
was that nice?
mm mm!
it were beautiful!
i wonder what 
the 
ribs are?
then we had the halibut in prawn something, halibut in black bean sauce and that was superb!
expensive though the 
i was gonna say i don't know whether i like halibut.
cos that's chunky int it?
is it, halibut?
oh it was beautiful!
i mean i am but i mean i like fish er 
but paul pork and prawn.
but er e oh it was beautiful!
and we had
that must be er quite good wasn't it?
there was no sweet and sour.
but there again
none at all there?
yeah, but on the what we had
ah!
we didn't get a sweet and sour.
er er er trying to think what was the one we had?
one was quite hot and spicy but i'd forgotten what we had for the first two the two that they brought out.
we had crispy duck and lemon chicken, that's nice.
er erm prawns and vegetables beef in black bean sauce
mm mm.
i've never tried that.
oh it's
haven't tried the black bean sauce 
beautiful!
a alan at erm pub used to like, he always got summat with black bean sauce.
oh it's 
he used to like that.
beautiful!
do they do takeaway?
no.
ah heck!
no they don't do any takeaways.
eh!
our arthur, arthur sat there and this girl come to clear the pots away and she's been round lots of tables, you know, collecting the cups up together and she comes in and she goes ooh!
she says, it smells.
that's very nice !
and i looked at her and i thought you can't say that!
and alan looked at her and then she looked, she goes, oh i meant, she says, you smile nice.
he said, don't get close .
yeah.
ooh!
you smell.
we're off er well york this funny thing i got to see that it all goes through for my dad.
and he hasn't got all that stuff now.
and er
mhm.
on tuesday i said, eh, chance to go out tuesday night.
only down for last darts match.
and erm
thought you were finished?
the men's.
with the .
oh!
anyway, playing at home.
well we've gotta buy next week so judy said if you come last night.
by heck!
riff-raff are coming down next wednesday.
well get off, we won't bloody come!
she's saying i don't think we want to go out.
cos they were playing newtons thursday night and she said they'll have to write home for nine men so newtons int gonna stand a chance.
well at moment, we're lying second.
but we've gotta next week where newton who are top and can't be beat have gorrit.
mm mm.
but chip shop behind us, but club on thursday nights, they beat chip shop six three.
we won thursday night six three.
i've gone right off on the individuals.
can't finish.
no i can't.
i played ellen 
i'm hopeless.
we won 
i played with ellen in pairs 
we won five one wednesday and it was me that lost .
i played with ellen in pairs.
ellen had played monday night, her individuals down at open then she played who's what?
i said to her i didn't even know you were playing.
anyway, she's got through to finals individuals has ellen.
and i'm playing with her in erm and i got sixty one, sixty and i got a, a twenty six.
i mean everybody can get a twenty six!
when you're going for a sixty.
and if i go 
twenty six.
for a sixty i'm, i get, i end up getting er seven.
two fives and a one.
oh we always play that one was fi that one was what you call a sixty when you get .
i, i, i also on the five, the er
i ended up leaving ellen .
what's to bloody finish she said?
so she went, eleven.
done a fifteen.
anyway, she did it.
i said, well i've got to give you the funny finishes for when you come to your finals.
it's practise.
yeah.
she said that was good thinking.
so er as i say, we won six for eight, so so erm they're gonna play our next time.
so we're still hoping it int the bottom, bottom playing all the chip shop there.
and all
yeah.
.
er er i'll want this conversation 
i know.
we're having a conversation though.
you got plenty of tapes.
so far 
the bleeding .
no because my i've got erm a letter don't know whether it was friday or saturday now, on from tamgrams.
have you heard of tamgrams?
and it was about tampax .
in in you know, internal
mm mm.
sanitary sort of, asking you what you use what size ha you know, how comfortable did you feel with them, you know, did you wear one at night?
did you wear a pad?
did you wear a pad when you were er heavy?
is there anybody else in the family, you know, a daughter, sister
mm mm.
all that.
so i put lianne's name down and what she used for her age.
anyway, it said er you will receive free samples soon and then er er incentive bonus.
so i thought well, i'll fill it in and send it back.
and i thought well, even if it was a voucher for pads or owt, i mean, they'll come in for either lianne
mm.
or me she said.
oh but i said, oh owt for nowt nowadays lianne.
so that'll be stood here looking at my jacket, it wants washing, and andrew's does, and our lianne's does .
seems a bit silly washing mine and andrew's today don't it?
and when er .
have to get a mo a move on and, oh i must ask her 
well my, my, my line's just about full of jumpers.
i must see daphne today.
well i've, i've seen her today but she said she'd er get me some socks and that out for, out for lianne.
she gave me those on monday.
actually i thought they were quite nice, but gillian er made i ian erm ring the short up cos she thought the legs weren't long enough.
so, she tried it on her and that and i said it's fine.
but i she'd had to lend ian some money the week before last so so he could do their pocket money.
he hadn't any money so he had to borrow it off gillian.
mm mm.
well they'll not be as that.
bad we could all live in four-bedroomed detached houses can't you?
mm.
we well, well, you know, today what was the point of having a four bedroom?
for show?
mm.
you know, you don't go from a, a one-up two-down to a two-bedroomed bung semi-bungalow and then shoot to a four-bedroomed detached.
and then your own commonsense tells you it's gonna cost you more doesn't it?
yeah.
so anyhow, money's that, he, cos he said summat on the monday night.
yeah i want money for andrew's trainers.
oh i'll see you next week about that.
he thinks i'm going halves with him, if he do, well he's got another shock.
he has.
mm.
and if he turns round and says owt, i'll say, ian if weren't for me your kids would be naked.
i just bought alan a new pair of jeans.
sixteen pound out of club.
cos i thought needs a pair of decent jeans.
i bought them both a denim shirt.
alright, out of club, but it will get paid for.
ah but see you've still got to pay for it haven't you?
what?
my denim shirt?
i ordered andrew one, andrew has been after one for a long time.
and i ordered him one.
i thought i'll get lianne one and hers came first.
mm.
and then i , oh i always have to have .
i said, actually, i'd ordered his first i said, but i thought i'd treat you.
i mean, she's got it on this morning, open with a benetton
yeah.
t-shirt underneath and it suits her.
cos she's got her black jeans on.
and black and black and then the denim shirt.
yeah.
cos he said to her oh your shirt's nice lianne.
cos she had it on last week.
and she said, my mother brought me it.
and i thought, i'm just going to wait and see what he says, and i'll say well they'll be walking round naked cos he's not bought them a pair of socks, pants, t-shirt jumper, nowt.
mm mm, mm.
mm.
cos our lianne said to me on thursday mother i'm only going away for week.
cos i'd got her a tube of toothpaste.
i thought i ain't buying her a pump toothpaste cos all the others will you know, if they see a pump toothpaste
mm.
i thought, right, i'll get her a tube of toothpaste.
and i got her two strips of elastaplast.
i thought, well if she's not used to walking boots
yeah.
they might rub her.
er they might rub her.
so i thought well if she's got plasters
yeah.
she's covered.
and er i said, yeah but you know, you don't start spending your own money
mm.
on such things as plasters and what have you.
she has to be in beverley for eight o'clock.
monday mo 
monday morning.
monday?
first thing, first thing.
mm.
and come back about nine o'clock the saturday night.
i said i'll pick you up .
luckily, it is the weekend the car'll be home 
yeah.
so i'd have to get by car.
but i was gonna go through beverley to police station and not to we turn left at traffic lights now it it's moved.
mm.
it's where co-op.
int it?
you know where th 
oh i don't know.
you know where the co-op is?
no.
as you go down er er 
well somebody said to me, when i get to traffic lights instead of turning right and going through the bar i turn left and go, as if i'm off up to north cross.
up to north cross?
as if i'm off, up posh end.
er up the house.
whe where are you coming in?
from .
they'll wait
oh.
and i'll go alan's way you see.
yeah.
and how do you hit beverley then?
do you go down westwood?
yeah.
oh.
you have to turn left at traffic 
yeah.
lights and you tur 
yeah.
about 
go 
three quarters of a 
you go 
mile off them, and up 
yeah.
there on the 
and it's on your left hand side.
on your left hand side.
and you got the flat and
all you're doing is taping normal conversations.
yeah but you don't know what our normal conversation is do you?
ha 
well
nah i couldn't let all my secrets out.
they say you've got .
oh yeah!
oh ooh!
ooh!
ooh!
any 
well 
any cups left?
oh.
why's that?
you making me a coffee?
well i might.
i made you a drink last night duck.
i know.
i made you a drink today and all.
extra dinner's on there.
ooh!
ooh!?
yeah.
i better have the dishwasher going.
won't have anything to drink out of.
can i have the paper back please?
ah.
oh yeah.
i've got to go shopping.
looks like i'm gonna have to go on my own.
mandy's 
why have you got to go shopping?
oh yeah.
she goes walking doesn't she?
he said summat yesterday about taking an hour off.
mm.
but then er he works late last night and he had to go in again this morning.
yeah.
he's always 
yeah.
aha!
nah, i bet he hasn't been working.
he's been up early this morning.
paul has?
yes.
didn't wanna get out of bed.
i didn't .
oh yeah.
well she'd look after him wouldn't she?
she'd find him things.
yeah.
aunty norma?
eh?
aunty nora?
aunty norma.
shall i go up to her in the pub on sunday i'll say, hey aunty nora?
she'd .
i know she would.
she'd say, that i've set you up to say it.
why aunty nora?
what are you having with your chops mum today?
morning.
morning.
morning sir.
there are some licensing applications george.
is there?
application er question number fifty three please your honour please.
send that to all at the crosskeys at, the chester your worships.
so that at all?
i am.
licensee of the crosskeys at the chester.
that's right, yeah.
and you're making applications for an occasional license for saturday the twenty ninth of october to run the bar at nell gwyn village hall on behalf of the the village hall committee is that right?
no, that's the way it is, yes.
the hours you're asking for is seven thirty pm to eleven forty five pm?
that's right.
i think you did send this is intending it to be a postal application mr ?
i did, yes.
but er, your worships to do it by your colleagues until today because er mr indicate on the application form that er he will not be in fact, operating the bar himself but it would be somebody else.
in fact they, your colleagues wanted more information about 
yeah that's a
who will be operating bar mr ?
well i'm i'm on er mr martin .
actually i did operations between the village hall and the crosskeys and mr martin is on the pub for the last sixteen years you see.
well that concerns this this gentleman to extend the licensing.
oh yes sir, definitely.
i'll i'll be going to the village hall but i me i have to 
the crosskeys that's why i put martin , perhaps i've put the wrong thing on you see.
i'll be in charge of the bar actually.
so physically you will be exercising something degree of supervision in the 
oh that, yes!
will you be there when it's time to close mr ?
i will, yes.
you see there in particular to young people.
you are aware of that?
oh yes, that, that's why !
then this application be granted.
right, thank you very much.
thank you.
er
thank you, thank you very much.
application number fifty four your worships, the a temporary authority in respect of quick save supermarket.
.
jacqueline is the applicant your worship.
are you representing ?
right.
could you take the oath please?
hold the bible up in your right hand and read the words from that card.
i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give is shall be truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
okay.
now full name and address could you?
jacqueline ,.
and er, what is your date of birth?
thirteenth of the twelfth, sixty four.
and you're making application for temporary authority to operate the licensed 
premises known as quick save supermarket
that's right.
at er station road,wetherall is that right?
that's right, yes.
is the outgoing licensee present?
pardon?
is the outgoing licensee present?
no.
why?
don't know.
not had a 
you don't know?
well, somebody's handed these documents in, have these come with you today?
yeah.
the present license holder is susan .
that's right.
right.
sir, there is a letter simply saying er she consents to the er, application, but there's no indication to why she's not here.
is that lady now at that qui quick save?
yes.
she's at work for the company too?
well
what's your normal there?
supervisor.
in this depot in wetherall 
that's right.
are you there permanently?
all 
yeah.
day every day?
yes.
the premises ?
yes.
what er, experience have you got in er the sale of intoxicating liquors miss ?
well i worked for the past two year really
where, at the ?
i used to work in oldham and then then i come over here.
.
so how long have you been at these particular premises?
er about a month ago.
mr mr .
well no she says, she said er she said 
it is responsibility .
cos she's just given up her her er any er,possibly?
and er miss do you intend to apply for the transfer of this license?
yeah.
has an application been submitted for that purpose?
yes.
to the, which transfer 
oh!
er to er
i'm not so sure this applicant knows very much about what's going on here anyway your worship!
do you see what i mean, see most of this has been done for the convenience of the quick save supermarkets on that er, i should say.
mm.
well, practical purposes at this stage sir she maintains insufficient i've no doubt the licensee will want to know a lot more about the situation, it's very apparent it's not long ago that they last ta transferred to their present holding.
you are aware miss that any persons working in that department have got to be of age?
yes.
can you undertake that that will apply?
yes.
and you aware of the restrictions on drink for young people?
yeah.
and the sort of concern about that?
yes.
and we're going to grant this protection order which is temporary permission to keep the premises open and i must tell you that there will be a lot more investigation before the order is granted that the transfer is specialist.
and we're ordering that the other person, if possible, attends at that .
if she's not in the district then it'll be difficult.
and if it is possible, if she is in the district we order that she attends the transfer sessions the outgoing licensee.
fifty eight.
have you got the license er miss ?
no it's .
well, but it will not be effective until er, you have produced that license to this court.
erm, i assume it that this er, if the licensee has left those premises wi she's physically left has she there?
yeah.
er, when did she go?
about a month ago now .
she left the company then did 
mm.
she?
i see, well i would of expected those premises not to be selling intoxicating liquor sir, they've obviously not had a license for a month!
that will also be er considered by the licensing committee at the next hearing!
you must produce that license otherwise it's not effective er, miss !
see, as licensee you have responsibilities!
it's all very well the company telling you as employee what to do it's yo , you're the one who's going to be in difficulties if you don't comply with the licensing laws!
your whole application's not been very satisfactory miss !
and the fact that the license is not in puts you in in in difficulty!
we are aware now that you're operating without a license and it's up to you to get that license here as quickly as possible!
right .
okay.
to do with application as number forty four your worships, please.
it's in respect of erm temporary authority for the your worship.
your worship please i'd like to make to application on behalf of mr for a protection order in respect of vigitalle er, mr mr , mr .
your full name is james ?
yes sir.
and you have resided for the last six months at the and at er ?
yes.
and are you this morning applying for a protection in respect of the vigitalle 
yes.
er, would you, would you tell the, your worships what experience you've had in the licensed trade.
er, yes sir my current position er, at the moment i'm at the licensed house trainee manager for boddingtons brewery and i've held that position for five and half years.
er previously i've had, held the license of three fishes at lyddon er, for three years er, previous to that i held the license of the mason's arms, with for three years previous to that and before i've been connected with the catering and licensed trade from be fifteen.
and you're there for quali qualified rather than just the licensed trade would that be ?
i hope so, yes sir.
and are you applying to, but,ar are you proposing to apply for the permanent transfer of this license?
yes sir.
thank you.
er, mrs please.
mrs , your full is margaret ?
yes.
and are you the current licensee?
i am, yes.
and do you support the consentants application this morning?
i do, yes.
that is the application your worship.
thank you.
a protection order be granted?
your worship please.
right .
er, application .
yes,
?
yes.
but
but er
.
excuse the long .
page fifty seven please your worship, robert james , he is in the cells your worship sorry!
so it will take a moment for him to be bought up.
there are apparently further charges to be put to him your worship the charge of theft and we charge him with handling stolen property.
he's only charged with one offence of criminal deception at the moment.
right..
fifty five sir, fifty six.
are you robert james ?
yes sir.
and what is your home address mr ?
.
is your date of birth the fourth of september nineteen fifty four?
that's correct.
are represented by a solicitor today?
should be.
was it mr ?
i have given the you have all the documents in front of you.
well i think mr got represented on a previous occasion that's why i'm asking you that!
well i don't know sir.
my solicitor's in birmingham!
my, my records sir that mr was the duty solicitor on that day.
oh!
i think he's represented you on more than one occasion .
but don't he know that his solicitor's gotta be here for the today?
i haven't a clue what's happening!
i didn't know, i mean i could of spoken to .
well you're the defendant, one would of thought yo yo yo know what'll happen to you!
i haven't .
as, as far as i know i have a committal today.
that's right.
but i would of thought that your solicitor was to be here to represent you.
as far as i'm aware my solicitor has been in contact with burnley prosecution to have the case transferred to birmingham crown court.
well he has been a bit 
if you tried there.
did you recognise the chap?
i'm afraid sir, i have no knowledge, i haven't certainly myself spoken to anybody with regard to that, i would of thought the normal procedure would be for him to be committed to preston crown court and for the crown courts thereafter to sort out the final venue.
i certainly have no knowledge of of any contact with regard to the ultimate venue and nothing has been marked on my file.
your worships, legal aid was granted er on the thirteenth of september to affirm of burglary.
well obviously they're not here your worship.
well all i can suggest is the case is adjourned for the week we'll just have to arrange a solicitor to be here.
i wish for the committal to go along please sir?
i've been stuck up in this place 
in that case of the day sir because the statements have to read out in full.
he doesn't want to be represented is that what you're saying?
what i'm saying sir is to save the inconvenience to the court is that if i could have my committal cos i don't wanna be stuck up in this part of the country!
i have a crown court appearance in birmingham and as far as i'm aware my solicitors have been in contact with the prosecution in this part of the country to explain the procedure and as far as i'm aware the committal this morning was to be committed to birmingham crown court with other offenses.
well you've heard the senior prosecutor say that she knows nothing, she 
well i don't, i wouldn't have said 
i don't know sir.
oh!
i mean, that case then can i take my my committal to preston crown court, and when i go to birmingham
if you're committed to trial in this court you will be committed to preston.
well i'll take it 
if 
now then sir.
if it is to be arranged and that you're dealt with at another court crown court will have to arrange that.
well in that case sir can you get the committee then please?
as of now.
as i say sir we put this matter down till later in the day, the defendant wi will not appear to be represented therefore the committal will have to be dealt with by re reading out all the statements.
it can't be done simply !
then we'll probably put this case back till later in the day.
do you see that mr ?
because you're not represented
well i don't know what the situation is!
well i'm te , that's what i'm trying to tell you!
you'll have to .
but because you're not represented the statements will have to be read out!
which will er take quite some time and er will 
and certainly will if you're reading to the court which was something you were concerned about.
i'm not .
i don't know whether you can help that man with that.
because mr has represented him, mr said before that he he thought it was as duty solicitor that he, he has represented him at some stage as duty solicitor but, he is represented under legal aid though this defendant by a firm of solicitors in birmingham and he's anxious to be committed for trial today.
if he was represented we could do it er, on the section six two.
otherwise 
are there any solicitors present today?
not at present, but he doesn't know .
oh i see.
he's given certain information to the court which isn't correct anyway!
have a word with him.
it might help everybody concerned if you could have a word with .
yes.
we'll have a word with .
could you deal with cases fifty five and fifty six your worship?
shaun david , mr represents him.
are you shaun david ?
yes.
what's your date of birth mr ?
twenty fourth of the seventh sixty seven.
what is your address mr ?
.
well you're charged with two offenses, the first of which is that at clitheroe on the twenty sixth of august nineteen eighty eight without lawful excuse you damaged two stained glass windows a picture frame glass and twelve glasses of varying descriptions belonging to whitbread breweries intending to damage that property and the being reckless as to whether that property would be damaged contrary to section one of the criminal damage act in nineteen seventy one.
i understand this value, value has been mentioned on a previous occasion, i think three hundred and ninety five pounds?
yes it is.
yeah.
to that charge shaun david do you plead guilty or not guilty?
worships if i may interrupt the the this erm dispute about the damage which was allegedly caused i have mentioned it to miss this morning and she has undertaken to make further enquiries.
erm briefly, the situation is that it's alleged that he broke two stained glass door panels and mr denies that he broke the second of the two, the one at the front door he says was broken at some time earlier on the evening on which he was involved.
unfortunately miss hasn't been able to conclude her enquiries er, to apportion the damage and to take instructions as to the the residue of what i've just said.
it is suggested er, by both myself and er my colleague that the matter should be adjourned for one week.
well it, it was adjourned last week for him to with instructions your worship.
yes we we've adjourned this case for one week other enquiries can be made.
so he doesn't have to, on conditional bail today?
well bail will be extended for one week.
well you know what that means mr , you were told this last week you will be to surrender yourself to bail next tuesday at er .
hopefully the matter will proceed next week.
can we go your worships?
yes, you can leave the court.
case number one your worships please peter john .
are you peter john ?
that's right.
what's your date of birth?
nineteen of the first sixty three.
what's your home address mr ?
.
you are charged with an offence which is contrary to section six of the road traffic act in nineteen seventy two in wallby on the ninth of september drove a motor vehicle on the a six seven one wallby by pass having consumed alcohol in such a quantity that the proportion of it, in your breath exceeded the prescribed limit.
do you understand?
do you plead guilty or not guilty?
guilty.
have you got your driving license with you mr ?
i haven't got it actually, no.
why?
because, well i told the police at the time that er i've misplaced it and er my is.
what are you doing about getting er, a replacement?
well i haven't done anything at the moment because i di i didn't think it was worth it actually.
well, it says on the bottom of the, your copy of the charge sheet, production of driving license you must produce it, failure to produce it will mean that it is automatically suspended and it also means you've committed yet another offence by not having a driving licence here to produce mr !
well i wa i wasn't sure whether to, whether it would go through in time for the case and that's why i haven't 
what's stopping you?
send off for it.
i wasn't sure what the situation was .
unless the prosecutor is in the fortunate position of having a computer printout of your driving er le , holding your licence record the case won't be able to proceed today anyway.
and your worship, regrettably there is no printout of the driving licence.
well the case can't go ahead today without your driving licence.
sorry?
the case cannot go ahead without your driving licence.
how many weeks do you want to ?
your worship, i would anticipate that it normally takes at least three weeks for a printout for the computer to be able to
and this case is adjourned for three weeks in order that a computer printout will can be obtained.
does that mean i don't have to apply for another licence?
no, but er ee i , i suggest you don't apply for the licence now.
no, you've left it too late!
but er i would urge you to try to find your driving licence because
no, i i i don't think i'll be able to because .
right, well you know you're going to be disqualified eventually for this offence if you're convicted.
yes.
what, the offence the drink driving offence?
yes.
yeah.
do you understand?
i realise that.
you've pleaded guilty to the charge anyhow, it's a fair cop!
the point is that when you are disqualified you're not just disqualified from driving you are disqualified from holding or obtaining any driving licence.
so if you've got one at home you're committing an offence by being in possession of it.
do you understand?
do you understand that?
yeah.
right.
do i 
no when you're disqualified.
but don't apply for a driving licence in the meantime.
yeah okay alright.
but er you'll be in a far safer position if you actually produce your licence on the twenty fifth of october.
right.
can i go sir?
yes, you can leave the court room.
er, so yours is better mrs .
er number twenty one sir, the january .
sorry twenty one?
yes sir.
your worships, john graham please, twenty one.
now, are you john graham ?
john geoffrey .
john?
geoffrey .
thank you.
with a g?
yes.
what's your date of birth mr ?
twenty ninth of the eleventh sixty nine.
what's your home address?
you're stood up for a number of offenses, the first of which is that on the twenty first of june nineteen eighty eight you, on the public road way in accrington road worley used the mechanics of the vehicle when there was an excise licence in force, it's an offence of the vehicles excise act in nineteen seventy one.
do you understand?
yes.
do you plead guilty or not guilty?
guilty.
also that you be the driver of the motor car having been required to produce your driving licence for examination to the police officer, failed to do so.
to that, do you plead guilty or not guilty?
guilty.
also that you used the vehicle without insurance being in force in respect of third party risks a contravention of section a hundred and forty three of the road traffic act to that are you guilty or not guilty?
not guilty.
also, that on the twenty first of june you've used the motor vehicle at worley on accrington road when there was no test certificate in force.
are you guilty or not guilty?
not guilty.
also, that you failed to produce an insurance certificate on being required to do so.
are you guilty or not guilty?
guilty.
and, finally that you failed to produce a test certificate.
are you guilty or not guilty?
guilty.
has he produced these documents to you miss ?
no sir.
have you got the insurance with you?
yes.
the test certificate with you?
everything my solicitor was outside.
what?
i give them to that solicitor that, i were talking to.
which duty solicitor?
his duty solicitor's
oh!
mr .
.
likely to receive custodial sentences.
in this instance.
i can't see any harm .
would you like me to show the the prosecuting solicitor?
well perhaps it'll save time.
.
mm?
knowing business effects it.
no take them off.
yes, may please your worships i am satisfied that those documents to cover the defendant for the date in question and will therefore offer no evidence in relation to the protest to these premises but to dismiss them.
could i ask sir
yes, stand up mr we listening to those three charges and maybe you'll no test certificate in those two .
er
now unless there's a prosecution we have the facts for the other offenses i understand.
yeah so please your worships it was the twenty first of june in the morning when the police officer was on duty on the aces accrington at worley he had occasion to stop the vehicle which was being driven by mr and he noticed that the excise licence which was being displayed had in fact, expired at the end of march.
mr was unable to produce his documents in relation to the vehicle which he indicated was his own and he was therefore given an h r t one to produce those documents but you will appreciate from the matters that he's pleaded pleaded guilty to this morning he in fact, failed to produce his insurance driving licence and test certificate within the required period.
your worships, those are the brief facts, i would ask you consider back duty of eight pounds thirty three pence at being called a month of may.
i think you'll find 
he says .
i would like them both to go back from the month of june.
i know.
i'd also ask you to consider costs of ten pounds.
.
he could have the li you can have your licence back offenses to endorse it with.
yeah and er .
you're able to help him anyway.
yes,
i wonder if i may 
can i just say before we start but er why that he doesn't call june and his licence for seven months.
sir, i apologise, i was going by this figure made by which indicated that it expired on the thirty first of march, i think and in fact, that is a an error on the officer's part it would appear from the licensing authorities in fact, it expired at the end of may.
yeah.
yeah.
.
your worships er, these offenses arrived out of er what was, initially a road traffic accident which occurred on the twenty first of june er, when er, mr 's vehicle came into collision with er, a vehicle that was erm stationary in the centre of the road waiting to turn right.
no er allegations of erm concerning the correct, his driving er, are made by the pro prosecution er as a result of the incident but er, as a result of the officer's enquiries er, it came to light that mr was er, in breach of some of the er, other regulations regarding road uses and so the summonses which are to deal with this morning have er have been issued against him.
erm, and you will be aware that at two of er, three of the er summonses that are now left here to de deal with, that's three of the four er, do in fact, relate to clearly produce the documents.
er, failure to produce his driving licence failure to produce a test certificate for the vehicle and failure to produce his insurance documents and what mr says in respect of er, those three offenses is that er, the officer, he accepts, did tell him that he was obliged to produce the documents to a police station but he says that he was suffering some shock as a result of the road accident and er he didn't appreciate what the officer was saying to him at the time and, never having had to produce his documents at the police station before er, he had never er no , known that that was a procedure that had to be followed and in the circumstances he didn't pay any attention to the print on the h r t er, one form that was issued to him and he didn't produce the documents.
it was completely ignorance on his part in that respect.
er your worships, the one remaining summonses, the one relating to the fact that his vehicle er, wasn't taxed at the time of the accident and, i think er he he will be aware his tax er, did run out at the end of may and this accident happened on the twenty first of june.
i've asked him about that and what he said is that er, he was saving up and he was going tax the vehicle as soon he was able to do so but he didn't have the funds and er, to do so at, at that time.
erm he is obviously aware that er by not having the vehicle taxed it's going to cost him considerably more than if he had er taxed the vehicle at the right, correct and proper time.
your worships, mr works for wallbank aerials in worley and he works for them as an engineer his vehicle was erm something that he did use for work, but unfortunately as a result of the accident his has been written off and he hasn't yet been able to er, replace it and so he's having to be erm er, chauffeured by the company to do his er his work.
erm he was using at that time an r registered ford escort er, which was er, only insured third party, fire and theft.
he receives for his employment a take home pay of seventy three pounds per week, he lives with his parents and pays a board of twenty pounds per week he's fortunate in that his employer takes him to work in the mornings but he has to catch the bus home in the evening and at lunchtime on saturdays which costs him seven pounds forty.
he hasn't any other commitments and he would ask that erm he be allowed to pay the fine at the rate of twenty pounds per week.
your worships, those are the circumstances i would ask you to bear in mind that this man a ha , has four summonses against him purely as a result of really ignorance as far as purchasing documents is concerned they were in order and erm he would of produced them had he realised what the officer was saying to him and er, that he would of realised had he not been suffering the shock, but he was actually sufferance suffering at the er at the time of the accident.
i don't think your worships.
well mr er pleading guilty to these offenses and we've listened to what the solicitor has said on your behalf the main offence of having no excise licence you'll be fined seventy five pounds and be willing to pay eighty pounds thirty three back duty and ten pounds costs and for the offenses of failing to produce you'll be fined ten pounds for each of those three offenses.
we will order the fines and costs to be paid at a rate of twenty pounds a week.
so i make that a hundred and thirteen a hundred and twenty three pounds, and the costs are thirty three pence?
erm a hundred twenty six thirty three.
sorry, you're right!
one, two, three 
a 
sa 
hundred and eight
one two, three three three sir.
so do, you understand that er mr ?
yes.
you pay out twenty pounds a week the officer of the court is agreed and the address will be given to you by the court usher before you leave it is your responsibility to make sure that money is paid each and every week, the first payment is due by next tuesday.
erm i'm off sick at the moment from work so
so i won't be able to pay the first payment cos, you know ain't got no money.
don't you get any sick payment or
well erm, i've just come up and and the accident so i'm only entitled to money for the first four days.
i see.
and when you are likely to be earning again?
erm perhaps anywhere next week.
well i do think give fourteen days for the first payment sir.
yes.
you have you fourteen days the first payment will be twenty pounds a week thereafter.
so by a fortnight today there's gotta be a payment in?
yes.
.
alright.
may we go sir?
yes, you can leave the court now.
thank you.
back to case thirty one.
miss apparently you represent mr er well i i notice from the documents with the er summons it was adjourned because erm their solicitor wrote to say that he will be claiming not guilty?
oh yes.
is that the case?
yeah, your worships i understand that the the prosecution are are making application i don't that you should go on with this.
so is it ?
if if it's not going to trial 
when they were 
we'll do it now we'll take it now.
i wonder if i can insist, it isn't a matter where and they have spoken to me about this particular case and
go to forty five your worship.
sorry, i forgot the
the view of the prosecution that this is matter could be dealt with quite satisfactorily by the way of in the court were minded to do that, if the court would accept that course of action.
i understand that mr would be willing to be bound over.
does that compare with that ?
well obviously miss the magistrates will need to be satisfied there are grounds why they should bind him over they will also need to be satisfied that there is a fear for the future otherwise they will not bind him over.
i appreciate that sir, but you may feel at the end of the day that you need to hear conducts from the case and if he is still present obviously whatever the court wishes to do.
i see, well in that case then i will leave it alone, i'll deal with this a little bit later on, obviously it could take 
as you want.
possibly .
who else is present mrs ?
er number forty one sir,.
do deal with that your worships please?
forty one .
are you sylvia ?
yes.
what is your date of birth please?
ha?
what is your date of birth please?
er twenty ninth.
and
do you plead guilty or not guilty?
yeah, er guilty.
right.
and you're also summoned that on that same occasion you not having given your name and address to any person requiring it at the time, you failed to report the accident at a police station, or to a constable as soon as reasonably practicable and in any case within twenty four hours of it happening again, that's an offence under section twenty five of the road traffic act to that effect do you plead guilty or not guilty?
yeah.
you're pleading guilty?
yeah.
and finally, that at worley on the twenty fifth of july nineteen eighty eighty, you being the driver of a motor car you failed to afford precedence to a foot passenger on the carriageway within the limits of uncontrolled zebra crossing on king street that's an offence under the pedestrian crossing regulations and the road traffic regulation act of ninety eighty four to that do you plead guilty or not 
yes.
guilty?
yes, guilty.
right, now listen carefully to the prosecution.
do you have difficulty hearing?
yes, i'm aware 
that be needed.
alright, well perhaps lu turn, turn that way listen to lady speaking here.
just stand as close to her as you like as long as you can hear what's she's saying that's the important thing.
your worships mrs appears before the court today as a result of an accident which occurred on the twenty fifth of july at about four thirty in the afternoon it was on king street at worley and there was only her vehicle involved and a young girl who was using the pedestrian crossing.
apparently at this particular time there was a considerable amount of traffic on the road in question and traffic from one direction had halted in order to allow that the young girl and her friend to cross the road they began to cross on the zebra crossing but, as she reached the centre of the road mrs was driving her vehicle in the opposite direction and she failed to stop the young girl, in her teens, was unable to take, avoiding acci action and she was knocked down as she crossed the road.
apparently she then picked herself up and in fact ran from the scene but mrs didn't stop and didn't make enquiries as to who the girl was and neither was the matter reported by her to the police in due course.
however, the whole incident was witnessed by another driver who took a note of the car number and in turn, of course, reported it to the police and eventually mrs was interviewed on the eleventh of august of this year she agreed that she was the driver at the time and she replied it's okay, but if the little had stopped after the accident i would of sorted things out i couldn't do anything after she ran off.
and that it says, the brief facts, i would ask to consider cost of ten pound.
alright then, yeah.
you heard ?
ya, you did alright.
mr was going to speak for you now.
yes, your worships i wonder if i may assist the court o on behalf of er m mrs erm mrs er has told me that she thought at the time of the incident again was in fact, nearer to five o'clock than than, than four thirty and she was driving from billington towards clitheroe she had come through the traffic lights at the bottom of accrington road in worley and she was proceeding along king street in worley er, towards towards clitheroe and sh she has told me that at the time there was a considerable amount of traffic on the road and yo i in fact had that confirmed to you by er, my friend er the the traffic was sufficiently heavy that in fact, the the traffic travelling in the direction of blackburn er was wai was backed up to the traffic lights as far as the zebra crossing and beyond it and so as mrs erm was travelling towards clitheroe her view of the children on the footpath at the opposite side of the road was obstructed by the cars that were er, travelling towards blackburn.
and so erm, it wasn't as though these children ran across an open zebra crossing and she could see the children travelling er, walking or running all the way across the er er er er the pedestrian crossing the two children one was estimated by her to be about six years old, and the one who was actually knocked down was estimated by her to be about er, nine years old and she wasn't travelling at any significant speed at all, she was travelling slowly because of the amount of traffic and she says that er the first she saw them was erm, appearing from the behind a car and dashing across the front of her car, and in fact, it was only the the the one who ran first the the older of the two children that she actually hit, she hit hit her with the near side front of er of her vehicle.
she hit her and at the same time as she hit her she virtually came to a er, a stop because of the fact she wa she started to brake as soon as she saw the the children appear er, but ne never the less contact was made but thankfully for her and for the child the the contact was a a at no significant speed, the child was just knocked off her feet and she got up and waved to mrs and said i'm alright and she ran off and she was away before mrs had time, even to undo her safety belt to get out of the car.
she accepts that she then was confused, she didn't know what to do erm she didn't think there was any point in getting out of the car which is what sh she should of done, she should of tried to make some enquiries about the child er, but she er, she looked around shrugged her shoulders and and then carried on her journey because she didn't think there was anything else she could do about it.
and then again, ignorance er, at what she should subsequently have done er, then took over because she didn't realise that by having had er made contact with an individual erm it was necessary for her to report the matter to the police and she just didn't realise that that was something that she should have done.
your worships, er, there's nothing at all more sinister in the failure to stop and failure to report than than that,i th that is a a true record of the er er er of the incident as far as mrs was concerned erm and it is something which erm comes about an accident which came about probably through the inexperience of the children er, running across the pedestrian crossing thinking that they have priority erm and not having regard to other road users er, and mrs was travelling at slow speed but it was she was put in a difficult position by the the way in which the children ran across the road.
erm your worships as far as the personal circumstances are concerned she is fifty nine years old, she hasn't worked for the last three years she's in receipt of invalidity benefit similarly her husband who hasn't worked for the last ten or eleven years er, is on invalidity benefit.
erm she would ask that and fine that impose today er, could be paid by her at the rate of five pounds per week erm, she er runs a car her invalidity income amounts to forty six pounds fifteen pence per week and she also receives a super annuation payment from her former employers goldeson's hospital at the rate of a hundred and three pounds per month but she and her husband do have to er to run the home and er, and run the house er, run run the car and she would ask that she'll be allowed to pay at the rate of five pound per week.
yep..
sit down and watch mrs .
oh thank you.
sit down there.
well mrs you're pleading guilty for these offenses and we've listened to what mr has said on your behalf and we're going to be as lenient as we can in the circumstances.
for the offence of failing to stop you'll be fined fifty pounds, you're licence will be endorsed with five penalty points.
for failing to report you'll be fined twenty pounds and your licence will be endorsed and for failing afford precedence on the pedestrian on a zebra crossing you'll be fined ten pounds.
you will also be required to pay ten pounds costs.
that's ninety pounds and we will order it be paid at a rate of five pounds a week.
so mrs the court will endorse your licence that means that the fact that you have these offenses er against your record now will be entered onto on your driving licence by the court, the court will then send your driving licence to the driving licence centre at swansea so that they can er also record on your driving record.
you'll get your licence back in about three weeks time from the driving licence centre.
you must start paying five pounds a week by next tuesday the court usher will give you the address of the court but you must make you send that money every week.
yes.
alright?
right.
you can go now mrs .
thank you.
take care of it.
mrs ?
mr sir.
is that all?
yes.
oh fine.
would you deal with an additional matter please your worships er, not on your list he's only been brought in almost at the start of the court of this morning.
carl robert .
is he outside or is in he cells?
he's in the cell sir.
i think he'll be m
that there was but the figures are actually not as er as er disappointing as er mr may feel.
we do acknowledge that the fatalities by the end of er by the end of december last year fatalities had increased in the county but that does, but that's not really the figure that goes, go on because the numbers involved are actually quite small.
overall during last year, this is to the end of, of november actually because fin figures aren't available for the end of the year, the reduction was four point nine percent, which compares with four point three percent in the previous year, so not only are they still going down, they're actually going down slightly more than they were in the previous year and that must be encouraging.
and the next point on that is that the amount of road safety in the base budget figures, the amount from various different areas whether it's education, training, publicity, accident investigation or traffic calming, that amount of money is untouched so the same amount will be spent in the coming year a as was spent last year.
as far as the capital receipt money goes, not all, it's not been possible to spend all of that this year because the development of some of these urban traffic calming schemes is actually very complicated and we've had to re-think some of them.
the result is of that is not fortunate that they've been delayed but that in fact we have as much money to spend on them next year from the capital receipts as we will have spent this year, so in a sense we, we're not going backwards there either.
and then i would just draw attention to the proposals.
several of them there.
er, rural traffic calming, speed cameras, provision for cyclists, pedestrian are all new money with a road safety bias in it, so i think we've done the best that we could this year.
thank you mr .
mr 
oh one sorry one last point.
mr asked about traffic calming on new roads.
er and the answer to that is yes.
er when development schemes are put before us, or put before districts, it is possible to er to include a scheme which is designed to be a calmer scheme and in fact we have our own advice notes on roads and res residential areas that we hope to advise developers on that.
and in fact the there, most of the traffic calming is actually being paid for and carried out by the developer for that scheme.
thanks mr .
mr .
yes er chairman erm the eighteen point three million that we quoted in last year's report, we actually added into the revenue budget the provision for structural maintenance that was contained in the capital programme.
erm, there is a figure of seventeen point two million being quoted in this report.
as it says, it's just the revenue works programme.
if you add in the structural maintenance which is in the capital programme, which amounts to two point two million, and add that to the seventeen point two, you get nineteen point four million and that's the figure that needs to be with last year's figure at eighteen point three.
so the equivalent figure for, for the last year is nineteen point four, that's an increase of one point one million.
now part of that is inflation and part of it is the addition of, of erm proposals which are in the report erm from the policy and resources allocation of nine hundred and ninety thousand.
right, thank you for that clarification mr .
right, can i take you to the recommendation on page six.
agreed.
agreed, thank you.
right, agenda item number six which is on page one of the blue book.
regional transport strategy.
the committee are asked to support this initiative by to develop the sustainable regional transport policy and to appoint the chairman and two other committee members to attend the conference being arranged in march nineteen ninety four.
i would suggest that there would be logic in both the other spokespersons attending this conference.
does that meet with committee's approval?
agreed
right, good, thank you.
item seven, shaping the way ahead.
this is an update on the consultation following the conference which was held in july nineteen ninety two i think, yes, erm and basically seeking the committee's approval to have a follow up conference this july in the centre in and to all members of the council to attend as erm for approved as approved duties.
erm, mr would like to say a few words about the conference overall, er sorry about, yes the conference.
yeah.
thank you, thank you chairman.
er yes both this and the previous item are linked in a way.
erm, the, the regional conference will be a major national and indeed international conference and i think it's important that are there to participate and influence what goes on in the future.
we are, as you will be aware, in the midst of a very intensive debate about transport policy in the moment, at the moment, er provoked by various things, the m twenty five widening proposals, british rail privatization, er shortage of runway capacity, a variety of things.
all of these will be dealt with at that major conference so it is important that we are there.
the july conference that we're planning.
the timing is quite nice really and deliberately so in that this will be the follow up to that in a way and it also follows the earlier conference, as you've heard.
what we're talking about,w what we intend to talk about in july is not just whether or not our policies are the right ones but the practicality of implementation, which is actually the hardest bit of all to grasp, and what sort of things we might do, whether it's about spending more money, whether it's about influencing people, whether it's about physically restraining people on where they should go.
so i recommend that conference to you and i hope it will be er an interesting one.
we'll certainly do our best to make sure it is.
right, thank you.
so the recommendation on page six of the blue book.
agreed?
agreed.
thank you.
item eight, the highways maintenance works programme selection of schemes.
this sets out the draft proposals and erm will after this meeting go to all members of the council for them to go through with a toothcomb as well as you.
erm, if you feel that you are in any way upset by the distribution of schemes in this booklet as it stands, your chance is between now and march to get back to the officers and say, but what about mine.
fair comment.
mr .
not too many of you though i think 
absolutely right.
i mean, the point about this is that actually i must emphasise it's a needs based assessment, both in allocating the overall amount of money that goes to the various areas and er those of you who've already looked at it will see that area three seems to have a disproportionately high amount of the money.
erm, but it's not actually disproportionate.
the, the amount of money is allocated on a weighted mileage basis so it's to do with the length of mileages in the area and it also reflects the various types of surveys that are done to assess the condition of the, the roads in the various areas, so that's how the money is first divided up on an area basis, but within that all the schemes that are listed here have been promulgated either from such as yourself, from members of the general public, or as a result of our own inspections er and a priority has been assessed to them in a methodical way.
but, having said that, if you feel, particularly with schemes that you are particularly familiar with, that that one is above or another or we could substitute rather than, there won't be any more money, that's the point i need to stress i think.
you can make pleas for extra schemes but if you do so i could only suggest that you also accompany it with one that you would rather er is not done, so there are actually replacements rather than additions.
i'd best, i'd best leave it there.
right, i've got mr followed by mr .
chairman members i, i'll look very hard for, for the words 
i know you will say and i will support you, that we really don't want members bringing up detailed points like that at this committee.
was er whether the please ensure erm looking at carriageway major repairs you see area two tended to ninety three thousand pounds and that covers a lot of things which might include .
would it be possible for areas in area two with that information please?
yes, we'll certainly do that.
i'll ask mr to get that arranged for you.
thank you mr .
mr .
that you very much mr i've got mr followed by mr .
thank you erm i hardly ever comment on these but i just, i wasn't sure what because quite often these things go under another guise, but there are a number of schemes on the drawing board for investigation as you all know and mr will know some of those they've been around for, for some years.
i thought that they were about to come to fruition.
i just hope that they aren't completely lost and in particular i'd just mention the because it's being increasingly used and will be as the bypass comes in into use because access will be restricted to the, the erm roundabout.
it's extremely noisy because the surfacing at one stage just didn't take properly for all sorts of reasons the traffic along there is increasing quite dramatically and i hope that will be part of those schemes.
i'm not trying to work something new, it's already around and i just wanted to make sure it's not forgotten.
i'm sure it hasn't been forgotten mr .
can i .
mr .
thank you madam chairman.
erm i'm not gonna mention that sort of little village in the north that i come from but on page twelve i do notice that thousand pounds .
this has surprised me a little.
could you give me just a little clarification on that 
okay thank you mr .
mr .
thank you chairman.
i think that's probably covered by mr 's point but we'll seek clarification in a second.
erm, please,appalling and have been for many years and er the whole of the road needs to be done.
mr 
yes.
obviously there are a number of detailed points and these are just the ones that are coming off the top of this meeting and you will have more when you take them home and, and read them.
most of the schemes that are put in here are actually assessed by the area highway engineer and if you've got particular schemes, especially ones that you know you've talked about in the past, the best way of dealing with them is to speak to him directly and say, why isn't it in this time?
if you're not happy with the answer then i'd be pleased to hear about it and er and er obviously we can assess the priority .
erm, on there's a specific question i'd like to ask er if he could throw some light on that one.
yes, if i can mention that the is on the and it's really associated with the government's intention to raise the er limit of lorries to forty tons by nineteen ninety nine.
now what we have done is looked at s these causeway relief arches which pass the water from one side of the to the other at .
we've looked at those and the v they have very seriously deteriorated.
the concrete's spalling, the reinforcement is being attacked and we've looked at various ways in which they can be repaired or replaced.
to replace them, for example, would cost something over a million pounds, but this is actually a repair to those er culverts the .
right, thank you mr .
right, can i take you to the recommendation on page nine that the programme be circulated to all members of the committee.
erm
quickly then
i would be the case
no er
he's got a beard.
oh dear
ken 
on erm 
ken yeah that's it.
bruce?
bruce, yeah.
that's it.
yeah.
i like him.
oh i used to listen to that for ages.
mm.
i like him i do.
he, he has some lovely records.
good, good choice, you know?
i listen to 
oh you sound like n n norman wisdom .
sounded just like norman wisdom .
or that bloke at the club making his mouth go go funny 
ooh that 
hey that's, that bloody bloke who at the club that you 
norman collier?
no that bloke that comes up there.
have you been john?
no, i'll chuck away.
hang on.
who's that?
him that him that calls on the bloody bingo .
he says all the frees, firty free.
yeah.
and 
who is that?
where's that at?
is he, is 
where, at the beacon and he's
oh!
free and four, firty four.
he he's a spastic though isn't he?
i don't know.
is he?
oh, i didn't know.
i think one of them's in a wheelchair.
oh well, you shouldn't make fun.
well i never see him.
i well i er i it was just he he sounded like a ponce to me.
you know, and he says sisth and two, sisthy two.
oh bloody hell.
well i admire him if he's 
well he he 
yeah i'm sure he's erm 
mm.
spastic.
mm.
i saw a wheelchair there one day and i know 
oh.
they were saying they were gonna introduce spastic people 
oh.
into the club.
well, jolly good.
i know one night that we were there and it said mr is upstairs 
yeah.
and i thought they were gonna say beam them up scottie .
then all of a sudden the whole fire alarm went ee oo ee oo ee oo 
ooh 
all the way round the room.
you'd never heard nothing and everyone 
and all the 
run to a different door.
and all the all the boys run he said it's just 
it's just to tell you just to show you how efficient that er our callers would be in a fire.
oh.
yeah?
yeah i'm gonna have, sod it i'm 
don't blame you.
ooh you bugger.
thought i were gonna get that one.
oh, you can have that one.
no i've got it.
eight jack.
oh my gawd.
that's alright.
what are you t moaning about john.
what else do you want in love?
eight nine ten jack, ooh!
a que
que
a que.
and eight, eight of yeah.
thought we might see pam today.
she finishes work at half past er twelve on a friday.
though.
no i suppose they have plenty to do.
she's always working.
pam don't stop working.
no.
no i expect she's got the club tomorrow morning.
she didn't have it 
oh has she?
last week so she'll be no doubt be there this week.
mm.
three cards.
you are a 
oh that would have gone wouldn't it?
does she do it every weekend?
no, not every weekend.
they didn't do it last weekend.
mm.
they did, they did it in the evening but they're not in the, didn't do it the morning.
mm.
i'm gonna put that one on to see if i can get me score down.
well i've just chucked me bloody jack.
well that's a shame isn't it?
swine.
mm.
oh i don't care though.
look at that.
don't care .
and look at that.
seventeen.
thirteen.
two hundred and twenty one.
thirteen?
hundred and fifteen.
john out.
oh fifteen, twenty five, thirty four, forty one, forty seven, fifty, fifty six, sixty six 
your deal con.
ninety eight.
think you're gone.
two eights are sixteen.
yeah, you're gone.
just.
got them, picked them jacks straight up, never picked nothing else up.
n not a thing.
no.
you're in it with me.
hundred and twenty one.
hundred and fifteen, hundred and one.
who won?
jimmy.
take the money out of my purse.
what for?
if i'm in.
if i'm in?
you're on to me tonight, you are.
who?
this silly sod i've got here.
pardon me.
ooh dear.
oh!
bless you.
no.
jeez!
no, i've got one but i don't want another one.
oh my god, look at that.
that's no good.
oh i don't know, if that one come up it would be, oh it's not now.
we had a lovely singsong last night, didn't we mum?
yeah.
mm.
who went?
you and ?
erm me and mum and er just me and mother.
oh.
three 
mother!
do with that one bad.
oh i can't sling that now, then i'd have two john.
wrong one.
she always slings my card just at the wrong time.
one too many short again john.
i might as well pack this hand up.
you're slinging all my cards.
yeah.
did that to me last time.
i never got nothing.
picked three jacks up hoping there'd be a joker.
oh you awkward sod.
picking up what .
well i ain't.
she's slinging everything i wa want and can't get nothing.
picked it up.
just picked a joker up.
well you're just bloody lucky.
mm, you're joking of course.
i want that.
ooh pardon me.
that's three bloody cards on the trot i've picked up which i'm .
seven.
four five six seven eight.
have i told you lately that i love you .
that's a king is it?
no i ain't got that one.
wrong one.
oh i've got that bugger now.
no i didn't. clubs.
jesus wept.
jack follow the leader.
two three four.
got nothing.
and that's no good now.
that's
well look at that bugger.
she's putting all my buggers i want.
last card.
little demon.
come on, your last chance now for your uncle john.
wondering what to chuck you john.
there you are, how about that one?
jack.
wrong colour.
is it?
mm.
oh jesus wept!
i've just had you.
that's how it goes.
i know that.
it's no bloody good if you can't get down.
mm.
i wish i hadn't changed me hand now.
oh dear oh dear.
got that four look.
you're out john.
.
chuck that bugger over here.
. can't make four.
oh i've just got three.
that don't fit.
that don't fit.
ain't you down yet?
am i buggery.
don't look like 
i've just got nothing.
getting down.
not with this bleeding hand.
me neither john.
me neither.
look at that.
let's have a count up.
fifteen 
all my cards are gone.
twenty six thirty pigging 
i shall die with these in me hand.
ah look at that!
well!
three twenties 
i think they're both gone but i'm not too sure.
and a pigging two.
would you credit it?
well.
pay up john and look pleasant.
it must come soon.
one of these buggers must.
oh that's that king.
oh dear.
now i might get a king.
oh no!
would you bloody credit it?
eh?
three twos and two twos.
three threes and two twos.
i can't remember whether this one's gone.
i reckon.
?
no.
no they're gone.
i've got the bugger here.
give me it.
that don't make no difference.
oh i only want one pigging card to make forty.
seven.
no.
bugger.
i've you all up and 
there.
would you bloody credit it?
not that two again?
that bastard .
ah!
that's the one i wanted.
look at that.
bloody 
i know.
that's how it goes.
well i ain't got i ain't got a sodding hand.
oh i'm gonna split these bastards.
you'll see the bleeding thing come now.
would you bloody credit it, eh?
i bet it comes.
king of hearts john.
yeah that's another bugger bit the dust.
no.
well, you wouldn't believe it would you?
i've got three nines.
ha.
that's all i've got.
look at that.
i had them three jacks.
picked them all up when i bought.
never got another thing.
i've got nothing else look.
well would you credit it!
they're gone.
i think they're both gone.
i think you slung them both.
yeah that's the trouble innit?
any bastard jack bar that one.
i've got a jack and all.
gaw jesus 
they'll have to wait for us to get out.
yeah.
i reckon you want the same as me mate.
do you?
mm.
that's why we can't get down.
i've just split me sevens up and bloody seven come.
yeah i've just split me nines up and buggers oh no 
that's a that's a fitter.
i don't want that bastard.
seven.
no.
don't know why i'm bothering.
oh jesus!
flaming bloody hell.
religious .
gaw gee whiz.
well.
i don't believe it.
all that bloody crap i've had.
nine ten jack.
nine ten king.
none of them fit.
none of them fit.
where's all them pigging 
i don't i don't believe this.
big'uns gone to.
well i took three sevens out.
yeah.
i thought well i'll sling me sevens out, keep me sixes.
oh christ.
look at that.
yeah they're all following each other round .
what do you want john?
i'll try and help you.
well 
i've split my bloody 
that's and all.
i know but i can't keep can i?
no.
i've gotta make something.
well.
i don't know what i'll get on.
i dunno whether i'm gonna make a hand out of.
i i tell you one thing, once i go down i i'm out.
i i just can't make bloody forty.
i can't believe it.
stupid person.
four sixes, twenty four twenty four twenty eight twenty nine thirty one thirty bloody nine.
would you credit and i got the bastard .
oh now what am i gonna do?
twenty four twenty eight twenty nine thirty 
going over we stand a chance.
hey that's that king there.
come on, get him in.
i know.
i've gotta get him in in a minute.
oh would you credit it eh?
that bugger goes and that one goes.
i can't chuck any away.
i know.
i'm a bit li i'm like that at the minute.
is it for me to go?
no.
no.
i've got to chuck away yet.
oh.
i don't know what to chuck though.
oh some bugger's put that on now haven't they?
i'll chuck that one then.
yeah.
if only i could make forty.
i could go down.
right out.
oh i don't believe it.
oh i don't believe here they come john.
oh dear.
oh here they come.
buggered i get a bugger.
no!
i 
have you got one?
bugger i've got .
you bastard .
oh my god .
would you bloody well believe it.
they'll have to let us down in a minute.
it's a seven con .
six seven eight i've gotta do it that, like that.
cos i've got that king in case john'll pick it up.
he won't.
oh my god.
three aces.
all that time.
yeah.
no wonder i couldn't get a bleeding ace.
yeah.
she'd got the buggers.
three on there.
i expect it's a waste of time though.
oh look at that.
any bastard bar that ten.
would you credit it eh?
wonder why i bothered.
oh look at that bastard.
any nine bar that bugger.
do you want this one?
no.
oh i'll sling in that one.
no.
i'm ch i'm splitting now.
i've got seven.
i thought you'd sat with that two con?
i know i chucked it away.
oh, well you s silly woman.
well i thought the three had gone.
i've got them two buggers!
gaw, bloody hell.
split them up.
took the ace away.
bloody christ almighty.
oh i don't believe this bugger.
i don't honestly.
what five's needed, the spade?
spade.
spade 
there's only one card will get me down.
yeah.
haven't i got it?
no.
no.
no it's gotta be one of them.
these cards are well mixed up this time aren't they?
yeah th but they're all and i've got nothing to help you john.
oh look at that bastard.
oh jack.
that's what i've just had.
i want a bloody jack but i can't pick the right bugger.
seven now.
i had that eight last time.
no.
no.
i wanna jack but it's still 
seven on there.
ah! thank god for that.
just look at that bloody lot.
you couldn't make forty.
two.
two for me .
would you believe that?
two?
hundred and seventeen.
mother?
you're out.
eighteen, twenty one, thirty one, thirty nine.
frigging queen.
look at that was coming next time.
your deal con.
no, i dealt them.
bloody hell.
it's joy's deal.
sod it.
i dealt them.
no you never.
i dealt them.
i did cos i dealt fourteen and i had to 
no i d i dealt them.
no you didn't .
no, no 
i dealt them.
no
i dealt them.
i know i did.
yeah you did.
i think you did.
right, hundred and thirty nine john.
two hundred and seventeen.
hundred and twenty one.
and i'm hundred and thirty nine.
who won?
i did.
do you fancy that ?
with all them bloody fitters.
thirty bloody nine.
i couldn't get a pigging every ja 
no.
what did you want?
i wanted er the jack of spades the king of hearts or a ace of diamonds.
and you kept picking the jacks, the red jacks?
yeah.
i had a load of rubbish and all.
i i i i finished up with four sixes and a three four five
you you couldn't think 
six of clubs.
you could possibly go all that way and not pick a hand up that would make you something.
no.
thirty nine.
everything that she chucked away.
i was splitting my hand up in the end cos they were gone.
i wanted to but i couldn't pick them up cos i hadn't got enough.
and i couldn't get out cos i hadn't got a hand.
and all the other buggers went.
the swinehund .
oh never mind boy.
worst things happen at sea.
ooh!
look at that.
would you believe it now?
look.
oh yeah.
is that the one you wanted?
ace of diamonds yeah.
stupid
oh well i i think i'm gonna get a long way .
jesus .
that's the first four.
i don't think i dare look any further.
oh i've got another one now!
who dealt these?
i.
oh aye.
aye said the fly.
here's my little
i said cos i shall phone the bank first thing monday and i shall say right, he's took the car so you can run to him for the money cos you'll be getting none out of me.
then i had a letter from the social security.
they've been paying me thirty nine pound sixty haven't they?
and i've been, been to fifty five pound seventy five every week.
oh.
so you'll get a bit back then?
yeah.
so i think 
it's better 
well they're on about backdating it to the third.
but if i write back and say i haven't actually had any wages since the seventeenth of january i might get it backdated from then.
what's that?
did do what he said he was gonna do then?
yeah.
oh.
have you had any repercussions?
yeah they went to work in it the next day.
did they?
yeah.
what, with all the tyres done?
yeah.
how'd they get there?
well i dunno.
michael said it were there at erm five to twelve, when he erm quarter past twelve when he come out of work they got in it.
but he don't know what time they got there cos he don't work in that warehouse.
so he was gonna ask if they got in late because they could have had time to get it repaired.
oh i see.
did mum tell you we went to see the bachelors last night?
yeah.
had a good night didn't we?
yeah, lovely.
had a bottle of champers between us.
sherry and champers.
yeah.
wonder we weren't er legless.
did you erm could you have drove on that what you drunk alright?
yeah.
i had some chips that's why i was 
only see what's her name barbara said oh i daren't drink any, i'm driving.
i never thought, well you and john were drinking driving .
where do you get this from then?
a lady come up yesterday to see if i would do it.
it's for that.
and that's 
how long you got it for?
seven days.
have you?
so 
what are you fighting for now, mm?
stop it!
oh his face, look .
oh benjy did you get he's still 
benjy.
here.
no i ain't.
i daren't.
it must be awful trying to scratch and not be able to reach it .
is that nice?
benjy.
benjy.
what is she doing to you?.
it's all day and all night though.
ridiculous.
he's, he must be allergic to something though.
allergic?
yeah my hand!
what shampoo did you wash him in?
the normal.
what i always wash him in.
it ain't that is it?
you don't reckon?
perhaps he's allergic to cat fleas you know?
mm.
he, you wanna see max's back today.
he's chewed it, literally chewed all his back hasn't he?
what are you doing?
spotty nose.
what's this?
trace.
what?
look.
mhm.
what's he doing then?
what are you looking for?
are you looking for more milk?
he can't be hungry.
he's looking for something.
tried him with anything the other day when he were like this.
gave him more 
perhaps he wants a drink now.
i gave danny a bed bath yesterday.
a bed bath?
why?
three mornings on the trot i've been up there and i've walked in the front door and i can hear him downstairs snoring, still in bed.
i said to him the other morning i said do that again i said look, i'll get you out of bed.
i said i'll give you a bed bath.
and i went in his bedroom and there he was snoring away.
so i run the cold tap, got a cupful of water in me hand and went ooosh!
oh he .
he soon .
he said i remembered last night he said if i was in bed i was gonna get wet.
he said i thought someone was here he said cos i could smell fag smoke.
he said i thought someone was here.
penny's finished work now hasn't she?
yeah.
yeah we're gonna try this erm i'm gonna try this thing.
see if we can get in to some more adult edu education while we're off.
it's ridiculous.
what name did me and danny come up with?mum and pam for driving school?
oh, hinge and bracket driving academy was it?
you cheeky devil!
it was danny that thought of it, hinge and bracket driving academy .
be a good'un 
yeah hinge and bracket.
hinge and gasket.
yeah.
yeah it's erm it's just such a long drawn out palaver they're getting, you know?
you don't even want that do you?
no, don't want nothing.
just wanna be left alone.
he has a few swigs and then .
but he don't .
don't want it do you?
do you want it?
have a little bit.
have a little 
bet old kelly's in a mess now isn't she?
kelly's house.
why what's
oh yeah she's having her wall knocked down.
is 
wall knocked out, yeah.
is is kev doing it?
yeah.
i'm gonna 
so who's going who's going tonight?
erm david?
and lydia up are they?
yeah.
erm
and joe 
joey and michelle are joey and erm what's her name are going to germany ain't they for four years?
yeah.
what's, what's joe's last name?
yeah.
i don't get a look in, i don't.
don't you?
no.
where's them ?
where's them ?
have a look at the .
oh you're wide awake aren't you?
kimmy and kimmy found a ferret down the field yesterday.
his own ferret 
oh did he?
went missing for about four hours and when it eventually bolted out this hole it run straight up him and curled up to him.
did it?
and he couldn't make out why cos he's quite vicious, his ferret.
he's got some new ferreting land and erm and when he went to put him in his box there was a ferret already in it but it's absolutely infested with these sheep tics.
ugh.
oh dear.
so they've had to sit and pull
has he peed on your leg?
your leg's a bit wet.
pull them all off.
yeah.
who's that?
who's that?
i'll go love cos you've got the babby.
oh good gawd.
oh it looks like your mother.
it looks looks looks like my mother, yeah dunnit.
?
yeah.
yeah.
come on in.
come in benj.
who is it?
dunno.
someone asking for you and rudy.
hello!
what are you doing here ?
hey look who's here.
hey.
hallo kid.
how are you diddling?
what's the matter?
alright love?
just having some breakfast.
you don't know who this is do you?
.
how are you?
yeah.
hello georgie.
hello 
what's the matter?
oh not too bad.
me back's bad .
not too bad.
your back's bad?
yeah.
mind benjy.
why didn't you ring me and let me know you were coming?
we wasn't.
did you feel fed up?
well i wouldn't, i wouldn't have come like this would i if er 
you're alright.
you're alright.
you're better than me.
i wouldn't have come out like this though would i?
do you know this is my daughter, you've never met tracy before have you?
yeah.
oh have you?
did she have long 
yeah.
hair last time we came over?
probably.
do you remember george and viv?
dunno, i can't remember .
no.
?
george is the drummer.
no i don't.
oh.
no.
i don't remember 
you seeing them.
i don't remember you meeting her 
meeting her.
come on then.
i'm going horseracing.
if you'd have let me know i could have 
well we're not stopping.
ain't you?
no.
well you're not going surely?
well we're not stopping but we're not going anywhere.
rudy ain't going nowhere and .
are we going?
i said yeah 
love, can you just put them bottles out?
what have we got?
a little boy or a little girl?
boy.
little boy.
gonna have a cuddles?
you look well anyway.
ooh aren't you beautiful?
aren't you beautiful?
how old?
er three weeks.
four weeks.
four weeks wednesday isn't it?
four weeks wednesday.
oh there you are.
viv'll have him.
ooh i'll take him.
i know she will.
yeah i'll take him.
that's our new arrival.
we had him, what is he, three weeks old?
he's four weeks on wednesday isn't he?
four weeks on wednesday.
mm.
that's her last caesarian.
look at him, his wi eyes are wide open.
you're just nosy tyler.
tyler .
mm .
you know, you're 
no, he was he was only four, five fourteen 
how is it you, you've kept your weight down then viv?
he's seven eight now.
i haven't, i've put it back on love.
you haven't.
i have.
not all of it.
well not all of it.
but i've put it back quite
i wondered where you'd got, we did ring one night couple of weeks ago but we didn't get an answer and i said well i didn't know whether you'd perhaps popped up the club.
it were a saturday night cos i was in.
i probably be working .
i've packed in work now you see.
so how's the others?
oh not so bad.
what, totally?
mm.
why?
taking too much out of me.
was it?
oh.
you're beautiful.
you going back to our mummy now?
going back to our mummy?
you can tell 
so how's all your kids?
are they all alright?
oh they're all fine, aye.
sit down 
can you manage on that settee?
oh yeah.
yeah.
have you seen my new arrival?
he's gorgeous.
this one.
that's what we rang you to tell you, we've got a new dog.
this is the one that i wanted.
yes, you want your tummy rubbing don't you?
yes.
.
come on then.
no, cos you're going in there now.
you're going in the car.
i've been out of work six months.
have you?
yeah.
now we're going out.
shopping.
ha!
we're going shopping now.
now you look better i'll tell you that.
yeah i'm alright.
i'm 
alright love.
are you ready?
right mum.
we're off.
alright love, yeah.
alright?
i'll er see you when i see you.
take that hat with him.
oh and that's for the kids.
oh yeah.
pam's got another outfit for, for the other one.
she picked the two up.
i, she should have picked the one up and i but
yeah alright.
oh he's fine.
okay.
do you want this cottonwool look?
no it's, no i'm not.
you're not gonna use it?
no i'm not gonna use it.
i've promised.
nothing to say it is that.
probably, i dunno.
i'll try this cream and see how he gets on.
right, ta ta then.
see you later.
let me open the door for you.
oh i can do it.
.
are you alright then?
got him?
yeah.
see you later then.
yeah alright then.
ta ta.
see you later.
mum.
see you.
yeah.
ta ta.
bye.
be good.
ooh dear.
ooh benjy bubbles.
oh it's great to see you.
i'm glad you've come.
might just have been the
what?
just as i said they just phoned, kenny just phoned and said are you coming horseracing?
i said yeah, well there's nothing else to do.
i get fed up with bloody cards, so erm i said we'll go.
it's only up the road.
it's only in the local flats, you know flat 
but they always come
eh?
they always come just just as i'm getting on and getting well luckily enough i got me me lounge done first thing this morning.
so what's been going on?
nothing?
everything?
nothing?
no not with us.
no?
nothing's changed?
been a bit busy i suppose.
have you?
you're lucky 
mm.
i've been out of work six months.
well, it's been quiet like, you know?
just this last four weeks.
. but i ain't 
i ain't been up your way for blooming ages.
no in actual fact we were only saying the other day that, you know,sugar viv?
no thanks.
george?
oh aye.
well got a big place in nottingham you see.
yeah.
mm.
so you can imagine that it wants something done.
it fenced up security-wise and everything else so we've been on it overtime and and painting and decorating and getting the 
do you want some viv, before i go?
eh?
everything.
no 
bit of toast or something?
no you're alright love.
georgie?
no you're alright.
shall i do you poached egg on toast or something?
no you're alright love.
come on.
no.
just before i go.
no.
no.
you get yourself off.
you get yourself off.
i'm not going till oneish.
have you been nicking bloody recipes again?
no these are what i promised er promised joy.
what are they?
weightwatcher's diets.
well have you decided you're not gonna do anything about it?
i think it's just a matter of losing the 
yeah.
no i might er might decide to do something about it if i get the inspiration.
i'm just getting now because erm erm i've been for an aud not an audition .
wrong word.
i've been for an interview with mencap.
oh aye?
and erm i didn't get the actual job i went for but they put me on the, on the relief register so that i go round to different people's homes or different big hospitals and different mencap homes relieving people when they're on holiday or if they're short of staff or something like that.
so 
yeah.
erm so er i'm waiting to hear, so that i'm getting irritable at the minute cos a the money is going and b being out of work, being here all day.
it's sending me crackers.
i'm used to working day and night.
i mean it's very hard to do neither.
husband he wants some beans.
who does?
him.
i'll beans him.
is he eating them beans?
he's ever so, ever such a devil to please.
aren't you?
so did it work, your weightwatchers?
i got down to ten stone.
did you?
you've kept a lot of it off though.
well.
what have you gone back up to now, eleven?
eleven.
but i got down to ten stone.
and but the reason that i got up to ten stone is because christmas .
and any i stopped going to weightwatchers.
i'm eleven one now.
but to go down to ten, that's good.
it is keeping it off though, isn't it?
once you
yeah.
once you've erm got it off you've gotta keep it off.
that is the art in doing it.
what are you doing in here?
giving him some beans.
i don't think he'll eat them rude.
he said he, yes he will.
or else i'll kill him.
benjy bobs.
there you are joy.
what's that?
when i first went to weightwatchers.
sit down mate.
ah.
and i got to ten seven on that.
and then i stopped going.
and then i rejoined 
so you've got a tomorrow?
.
and i got i was 
yeah.
i got down to ten 
nowadays wanting to work on saturdays and i said right i've had enough friday.
oh yeah.
and so
were you disappointed when you put it back on?
yeah.
but, having said all that 
yeah when i finish on friday george i've had enough
yeah.
you know?
bloody messing about.
it wouldn't be so bad if .
i'm not eating meals, i'm eating
snacks.
snacks.
and i'm .
and they're all starch, they're all potatoes and i'll have egg and chips and bread and more bread.
i very rarely sit down and have a meal now.
no.
and that's erm but it is good.
and i would er i would .
anyway, you can have them.
and they're the daily diets are they?
yeah.
do you have to buy ?
so how long, how did it take to get to town then george?
no.
orange juice, eggs, bread.
couple of hours.
eh?
couple of hours.
yeah.
couple of hours.
there was a lot of 
low fat cheese.
hard cheese.
just near er m forty two there's a lot of er roadworks and there were a 
i've just had me friends down from er 
wide load.
from jersey.
have you?
?
yeah.
we lost half an hour there.
i'm still working, that's the main thing.
that, that big job you were supposed to go on abroad never came off then with all this blooming 
no it never come off.
no.
aggravation they had over there?
yeah.
i've got adrian 
i see they're still saddam hussein's still flipping messing about as well.
what ?
yeah.
oh, good.
and is he alright now?
is he still behaving?
he's got to get rid of all that flipping 
that's er adrian?
yeah 
yeah.
factories for making weapons he's got to 
that's right.
otherwise they're gonna flipping crucify him.
how's erm it's craig innit?
yeah.
is craig still alright?
no, we've had a lot of trouble with him.
oh have you?
he got in with the wrong crowd up at .
the man's a flipping maniac.
he c , he c he couldn't, it don't matter what he does, he could never win a bloody war.
he ain't got enough blooming 
but he's learnt.
no.
never do it.
is he?
he's learnt it the hard way now and he's .
and er well 
see the old aircraft carriers and destroyers are standing by again.
yeah.
oh, good.
yeah.
any more?
oh we've had traumas of every descriptions.
mm.
since august.
me sister's husband's buggered off
oh.
and er 
which one?
wendy.
the one we went to spain with.
you know we went to 
the one with the parrot?
yes.
he's on drugs fourteen years of .
so we've had hell and high water with 
er tracy?
my mate val in jersey, she's been ever so ill.
she's got 
is craig still dj-ing then?
yeah, aha, yeah.
so he's doing well is he?
well he is and he isn't.
oh gawd.
it's like talking to a .
oh yeah.
that cuts that he can see every side of your
body.
of your body.
yeah.
and then it cuts it every bit down into cent ce cent cent centimetres you know?
and it erm he can see 
that's the trouble with the youngsters mate.
they make the money now and it goes like flipping water.
yeah.
exactly where the damage is laying.
oh.
they don't realize sometimes there's hard times to come.
you want something put aside mate.
oh aye, yeah.
quick and easy recipe book 
keep telling him and that's it.
it's a twelve week .
are you with me?
yeah.
so ideally if you looked at that come to that.
if you worked it out start in week twelve 
i've still got them two speakers here, he wanted them.
have you?
he hasn't said any more about them.
yeah.
bet he's forgot all about it.
yeah.
what does he want 
well he can afford .
eh?
i don't know 
they cost me three hundred and fifty, they're brand new.
and i said to him you can have it for two, two fifty.
you've saved an hundred quid.
i'll tell him 
speakers 
?
yeah.
i'll tell him when i get back.
yeah.
gonna have to save like mad then to buy them.
he will do if he gets it into his head but he got in trouble you see, got in with the wrong crowd and 
mm.
a lot of money off him and all this lot.
he just learnt learning now.
yeah.
adrian and andrea are alright are they?
oh aye.
just said we just bought in fran er franchise for a .
yeah.
yeah.
have you started or you started ?
week we started.
been at it three week now, so
mm.
erm and then if you that's got to last you all day through
yeah.
say you didn't use your 
so your firm's busy,?
no, not really.
not busy?
no.
we're very slack now.
the same as us everything's slow now.
i know.
just, just before christmas we had no job.
and that were right till the end of january.
we've had, we we had stock in our blooming warehouse since what november?
mm.
people didn't want it.
no.
it's only now just started now.
mm.
yeah?
yeah.
it's isn't it?
.
and that's how you know whether you're or not.
but you've also got your option of calories.
right?
which you are allowed 
yeah, we could have done without all this bloody hassle down there.
yeah.
you know?
do the whole bloody place up.
mm.
mind you the firm that was in there blue bag i mean they abused the bloody place they did.
aye.
they knocked it about something terrible.
yeah.
so i mean sooner or later would have been had to to do, do up you know?
mm.
and these people decide whether they want the place, and the ideal place for them.
whether they want so 
er fourteen to twenty one.
that's what it is.
it's fourteen to twenty one.
what's that.
mm.
eh?
opt er optional calories .
well there ain't much that'd be fourteen to twenty, twenty calories is there?
no.
you've got fourteen er fourteen options.
you need to be a mathematician to sort this bugger out.
you don't really
thing is to do .
it's quite easy actually.
this is a job if i don't lose it, feeding my dog beans one at a time.
won't it bubby?
yeah i ain't, i ain't done any work here rea really since, you know done up the place.
well you seen it last year when you came and saw the garden and 
yeah.
the back bit 
yeah.
i've only just tidied up the front again last weekend.
got it all sorted out.
course with the winter and everything you see you can't do much outside.
no that's true.
you've got to cut all your grass in the the back there but and with it being wet and 
and i've got to roll it again with the roller.
done a patio .
you've done the patio have you?
is your grass come up alright in the back now?
oh she's had that altered.
she's got us pond in now.
no got fish for it?
she's done it no.
little pond she's having.
oh.
be for water flowers, you know?
yeah, water lilies and so on in it, yeah.
so you'll not know it when you come cos it's all fenced off.
yeah.
we're all pri we're all private 
it's all fenced off?
now.
yeah.
oh aye.
yeah.
course in your area putting up the fences .
oh it's all done now.
aye.
and you're .
and your optional calories is nought to seven hundred 
i've put two trees in down the back.
i've put an apple tree down one side and i've got a victoria plum on the other side.
oh mm.
so i should be able to have some plums.
i've still got a bit more to do, you know?
yeah.
can't do it all at once though can you?
no.
it takes time but
yeah.
eventually you do it, you know?
sort itself out.
that .
that's just in case 
where's that dog?
he's here.
oh.
yeah that's the baby of the house.
that's the book.
we lost ours you know?
mm?
we lost our judy.
did you?
oh yeah we lost our judy.
it died?
before christmas.
she died?
did you?
no we had to have her put her down.
put her down.
too old?
yeah.
they do.
that is the only thing.
mm.
so there's that one you can choose from.
she was a lovely dog though.
oh aye she were beautiful.
so, you know, so loving.
mm
yeah er this one's the same.
mm.
he stays down here at night and he won't go if joy went up to bed he won't go with her.
mm.
and as soon as i get up i say you coming?
and he's up there like a shot.
you know?
mm.
at night sometimes i'm sleeping and i put me hand like that and he comes up and lays right across the back of my pillow.
that's right.
yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
he's ever so clean though.
oh yeah .
benjy!
benjy!
come on.
come and see dad.
benjy, come and see dad.
come on.
he skips over for the bloody 
oh aye.
there's one there, there's two over there.
sometimes he hides it down the back of his seat here.
chucks it down the back.
oh aye they .
and he knows, he knows where they are as well.
oh aye yeah.
yeah.
over there they're just doing microwave cooking you know .
don't like meat done in the microwave, do you?
no, i don't.
i don't mind chicken.
i'll leave you them.
and then i can put these together, but that one that one 
i suppose basically it's a matter of getting .
yeah i ain't been for blooming ages.
no?
that's right.
what 
you can have in a week or a day.
i find that is easier for me.
oh i used to do i used to do bradford wakefield you know?
mm.
and they took another driver on and he does a lot of that, the runs there you see.
i mainly do now like nottingham and mansfield and leicester and birmingham all round that way you know?
mm.
i don't even do now.
no?
mind you i could now.
mm.
until you get to london 
ah london is it mm?
i mainly do round the midlands now.
mm.
which suits me fine.
mm.
to run all over the bloody place and 
it's a shame.
if i'd have known you were coming i wouldn't have booked going out.
oh get yourself off.
if i don't do something with me life i spend my life sitting here all day 
here you are 
stop this dog of mine scratching all the while.
i shall brush it and you won't like it ben.
i've just give you one good brush haven't i?
come here.
come on
is that the only daughter you've got?
yes.
yes we had seen her.
aye i thought we had.
have you?
yeah because you fetched kiddies up, didn't she?
yeah.
she's just up me photo of the kids look.
that's them.
yeah.
don't you lean over, i'm not scratching your tummy.
i think he's just probably losing his winter coat.
yeah.
that lovely ni nice warm day we had.
ooh i spend a lifetime running around after my baby.
he's really made my life different, this little dog.
i love him.
we love him.
he's absolutely spoilt.
worse than any kid.
aren't you?
eh?
yes i think adrian will be 
it's a pity you don't feel like standing up and racing cos it's lovely .
yeah.
yeah we're going down there now.
it'd be a bit hectic for you though cos it'll be, yeah it's cold but it's uneven ground and that's 
oh.
mm.
you w you're not do you?
. see the thing is he's gonna run us up.
it's only just newton bromswell which is just up the road.
but you see if you take a car it's eight pound to park a car.
ooh!
but if you go in, if you walk in it's free but you, you can't walk there because it's well you're talking about five mile out into the country.
mm.
and although we're not so far from here cos we're this is newton road and the next town on er village on is newton bromswell.
mm.
but you see if you're coming from hyam you've got to come all the way through chilveston and that way
oh yeah, yeah.
and erm cos then pam ph penny phoned and said shall, it's her who's the horsy fanatic but it's lovely.
yeah we just go and have a pound on the nose you know and er 
well that's it.
you've got to.
there's about ten ten runners.
they only do it once a year on the flat.
er thursday night erm we went to the gala at the new gala club.
you know connells' all been took over by gala?
yeah.
yeah.
and erm they had their opening, big opening night thursday so he was, he was out, he was up at half past four that morning so i thought well we might as well go.
so i rang mum at four o'clock.
i said do you fancy going out tonight cos it's the bachelors who opened it 
ooh that's alright then isn't it?
so erm so went about half past five.
we got there for about ten to six.
they had a band called me and him on.
they done all chas and dave.
me and him.
me and him.
chas chas and dave stuff and roll out the barrel and all the rubbish you know?
oh i bet that were great weren't it?
yeah.
it were 
yeah.
then we had the local girls that do all this erm balls and 
and twist er you know like the ra ra girls.
yeah.
and then er as i say the bachelors come on at seven until eight.
they were rea they were they were good.
i mean 
yeah.
yeah.
not particularly my cup of tea but mum enjoyed them and they got everybody going and and then we had a good game of bingo.
we had a sherry when we went in and erm bottle of champers on the table and balloons and 
ooh.
tell you what she's living it up more now than she did before!
well, you have to make something.
but they've got, we've got a new club here called the beacon.
it's at northampton.
and it's massive.
it's an ex-tesco's warehouse.
mm.
it's absolutely massive.
but every night they have every saturday night they have a cabaret on and tonight it's renee and renata.
ooh!
oh my god.
yeah .
last week it were the barron knights 
oh i wouldn't have 
yeah.
minded seeing barron knights.
it's, i mean it's all free.
it's for the end of your night, your cabaret.
and the houses are a thousand pounds each.
so i mean 
ooh!
yeah.
yeah, so i mean if you have a win yeah, and a woman that sat on the next table to me.
touching my shoulder she said to me i want all the ones, all the ones.
i said go on, you'll get it you'll get it .
and i looked up and said it's here!
and she laughed and she said here here here she went like this and i shou shouted as well.
mum said good job you shouted, they wouldn't have heard her.
i mean she must have been in her seventies.
but we, we got it and she
oh good.
she had a thousand pound.
it were nice.
oh it is, it is nice isn't it?
i mean it's just a matter of you know, being able to afford to go and 
yeah.
and keep it going.
i mean i used to love me bingo.
i mean once upon a time nothing was , but i've spent two and a half thousand pound if not more since i've been off work.
yeah.
you know, the dole don't keep us.
well no.
i mean it's 
there's no way i mean 
no.
you can't live on the dole.
not when you buy like i buy.
no.
no.
i mean your joint of meat costs you a fiver don't it?
course it does.
oh aye course it does yeah.
so i mean we're
and the rest sometimes.
i went 
well 
i went down town yesterday and got some braising steak and it cost me five pounds sixty.
i know.
it's crazy.
and that's just for three of them.
i mean i, four of them.
i don't eat it you see.
that's without your and that's without your bits to go with it, your veg.
that's right yeah.
and then cooking it.
i mean 
i know.
gas and electric's expensive now isn't it?
i know.
and i keep thinking to myself well something will come along, something'll happen, but i i think what it is there is no jobs round here at the moment.
i think what it is is that i feel if i go into something for the sake of going into it to earn money i shall be absolutely bored with me life.
i f i shall feel as if we've been from here cos when i was first married we lived up round the next road.
and i shall feel as if i've got up, been round the world
yeah.
and come back to, to where i were twenty six year ago and 
mm.
yeah.
i don't want that.
i've got to 
no.
have a purpose to go out to work.
mm.
i mean most people go out to work to earn money.
mm.
yeah.
i mean i went out because i mean
the house does get boring.
i i got really really fed up.
erm i mean i were working 
at library.
i mean that were no problem.
but then when i left library i just got fed up and i went and went down to help sue didn't i?
and i thoroughly enjoyed it.
yeah.
mm.
it's meeting the people.
but now she's left and she's had a baby and i carried on because he wanted it, the the new landlord wanted me to to stop on and help out.
oh my giddy aunt.
and i would go in and i i never said nothing to him at first did i?but i just couldn't take it any more.
mm.
and it was either thinking about the wage packet at end of week which i was at first.
mm.
and then i were coming home and i were, i were really awful.
and i thought why should i?
and then on thursday i went in to work and i had had enough.
and i come home and i says to him, i'm not having this no more.
i said no,.
mm.
he says well if you want to pack it in love 
bless you.
pack in.
and i did and to be quite honest, i mean it wasn't the money really when you think about it because at end of day, forty six pound he were spending in pub anyway.
so i were working for nothing really.
yeah.
but he he were getting cos you were going out and having a drink er on er tuesdays thursdays saturdays and sundays.
whereas now, i mean we don't go.
you don't go.
no.
and well i, we even considered me and my sister even considered going back into driving instruction.
we went to a seminar
mm.
a fortnight ago.
it's stupid, i mean i've been a driving instructor seventeen year, and i'm not allowed to teach over here.
no?
no, i've got to take it all again.
you're talking about sixteen, seventeen hundred pound to get you through.
yeah.
but you see with this bank thing with the government, you can have a loan i think it's up to about four thousand pound like a restart.
and it's a free loan for fifteen months.
mm.
and then on the sixteenth month you've gotta pay it back.
however you decide to, by instalments or by
mm, mm.
one, one big lump.
mm.
but at the end of the day, it ain't really what i want to do.
no.
i mean i, i want to get into mental health care.
mm.
and and erm if i i'm hoping i'll like it when i get in there, but something tells me i would.
well as i say i went for this interview and she phoned me last sunday didn't she?
i went on the monday for the, to the house.
then on the tuesday i went to the hospital.
and erm she phoned me up on the sunday.
she said i'm i'm just ringing to tell you joy that you didn't get you you haven't been successful with your application this time.
but she said erm i wanna just tell you all the others that haven't made it, we've just said well i'm sorry.
that's it.
but, with you, we feel you've got so much to offer and we don't really wanna just say no and and and it would make you feel oh blow it i'm not gonna do it.
mm.
she said i feel that there is a place for you in the health, in this mental health service.
but she said what it is is basically we're all just starting from the bottom because this new idea of where they're buying small homes and making them small communities
yeah.
erm they're all starting from new.
they're all been institutionalized up till recently.
that's right yeah.
so they're gradually buying houses in certain areas.
and she said i'm sure you'll get in.
but you see it's like everything else, we're in a recession.
you, you go for a job and there's two hundred people going for that one job.
mm.
mm.
that's right, yeah.
there's three hundred and eighty went for a job up the hilly home where they have the spastic kids.
yeah.
imagine, for one post!
yeah.
i mean kerry's doing caring you know?
and she 
is she?
yeah she's a carer.
what the old people?
old people and er and handicapped kids.
erm she's teaching erm she's teaching handicapped now at er hilltop school.
er seven to eleven i think it is.
erm but they are not the really really disabled kids.
no.
they're, they are the the mental ones.
yeah.
erm 
cos they're mentally sick or mentally handicapped?
mentally retarded.
er me men yeah mentally retarded.
they just need a little help like with feeding or or if they throw a tantrum 
yeah mentally handicapped more than mentally sick.
you see the ones i wanted 
yeah.
to do.
i wanted to work with people that had had er severe depression.
ex alcoholics, schizophrenics.
aye.
where you don't do anything like that.
you just work on a plan where that i at the er at the beginning of the day you're, you're given your people to watch.
so every mortal thing that person does you note.
like if he doesn't wash, you don't wash them.
you note that they haven't done it.
mm.
yeah.
yeah.
and then you see you come along where you're pushing them to live on their own and you make suggestions.
that's right yeah.
and erm i went to a place in and that's what i wanted to do.
but you see they ain't got no places here.
no.
erm and it's a shame.
i mean mencap are all men 
it is really isn't it?
i mean there's there's more people now 
when you've got so much to offer.
yeah.
there's more people like that nowadays isn't there, than?
mm.
i think there's gonna be more and more.
because at one time th i mean you never saw them because they were pushed away in in these 
that's right.
great big hospitals and forgotten about.
whereas now 
that's right.
th they're coming out into community so you're seeing more of them.
oh yeah.
and th th there's more but i mean the facilities for them is there?
well you see and i've also put in for a job for the the marina at northampton which is another mental home.
but that's for a mobility assistant where i go in and befriend somebody and they employ me to take them somewhere for two hours.
whether it be 
yeah.
pictures or shopping or round the market or just for a walk or for a meal.
whatever you they employ 
yeah.
me, but it's five pound eighty for a two hour session.
well you've got to think about going to northampton.
yeah.
you're talking about half hour there and back drive.
so that 
yeah.
two hours is now three.
yeah.
plus your petrol money to get there.
yeah, yeah.
that's right.
do you want me to fetch a pillow?
no, you're alright love.
there's plenty of cushions 
no, you're alright.
and erm so you see you're, you're throwing money to get money which is, which is a bit stupid.
that's right.
pointless .
but then i erm she phoned me yesterday and she said to me have you had any professional lifting erm lessons at all.
i said no.
none whatsoever.
so she said oh, that's alright, i've got it all in me head what, what i've got with you.
so i do believe in me soul that she's working for me.
mm.
mm.
but she's offered me a relief post as i say, where i go round and help but she don't know how many hours it will be.
mm.
but i think i've got to get in and i've got to think well this next six months erm i've gotta work hard to get in regardless of whether i go voluntary or whether i go to a hospital and learn it at me own you know, expense.
yeah.
i think i've got to put something in to get something out.
i've never been a person that gets something for nothing.
for nothing.
no.
i've always had to work very hard but at the end of the day i'm, i'm self-satisfied because i'm i'm doing what i want to do.
and i 
do, yeah.
think to myself well it's six months i wish i'd have done it in august, now.
mm.
mm.
wish i'd have took it up in august.
took the bull by the horns.
see six months down the road i could have been there.
yeah.
that's right, yeah.
you see and
yeah.
it's like everything e but th s saying that we had him.
we had him in september didn't we?
and i mean he took a lot of rehousing cos he come from a a a family that hadn't really cared for him.
i mean he's a happy little soul, isn't he, in in certain respects?
i don't think he'd been ill-treated, but he's took a lot of love and a lot of attention 
mm.
to to to get him into a home.
and she said he'll probably take four or five months to settle in
yeah.
and feel comfortable.
but i never leave him.
he's never left is he, at all?
if i go out i take him to mum's.
or if, if i go out rudy'll stop in.
or if he goes out i stop in.
it's he's took our life over in a certain respect
mm.
mm.
but he's, he's brought us a lot of pleasure hasn't he?
he is, he's a lovely little character.
benjy!
come here.
but er he's hard work.
you can see he is cos his fur's 
oh aye.
oh yes.
his fur here eventually'll come right down to the floor, i mean when he goes out he's 
oh yeah.
absolutely 
yes.
filthy.
i have to sit him in the bath and
i think june had one didn't she?
she had er hers was er more, whereas yours is nice and white, here were all grey and black.
yeah.
yeah.
it were beautiful.
they're lovely natured.
mm.
he's a babe.
his dad's baby.
he's just a 
he's dad's baby.
you've gotta pick him up like a baby.
mm.
you coming with dad?
are you coming to your dad ?
well my brother the only person he does it to is him.
he growls like mad at gary.
doesn't he?
i've never heard a dog he don't do it to anybody else.
sometimes he'll growl at rudy when he comes up to say ta ta in the morning.
that's because he don't want me to go to work.
i have to bath him two or three times a week.
yeah.
and it takes me over an hour to dry him.
so he's he's
it's not, no it's hair you know 
it's hair.
yes that's right.
yeah.
normally a dog can well it's bristly isn't it?
but this is all hair this is.
and he's like a teddy bear.
he's mummy's teddy boy.
he's a teddy bear.
you'll have to remember rudy he's had nothing to eat 
he's a teddy bear.
for a day.
he's ever so finicky.
oh he'll have to eat when he wants to eat.
so he
so he's videoing it then is he?
yeah.
oh my giddy aunt.
listen, i'm gonna have to go and get
you go and get ready.
myself sorted out.
erm 
but you're not going you're not rushing off are you?
what?
well i should be back at five.
about f yeah, cos you've got to pick us up.
cos pam's son's going to germany for four years tomorrow.
he's just come back from belize erm, and he's they're, they're posted to germany and they leave tomorrow.
who's that, joe?
joe.
no i j i don't think joe , i saw what's her name?
erm mi michelle when i was going to the bank.
debbie.
debbie.
and erm she said she'll tell joe and they'll probably pop up.
they may come up tomorrow, i don't know.
i don't think it's, they're going before don't think he's going before tuesday.
oh well they're posted abroad anyway.
and they're all going out for dinner tonight.
mm.
but pam's coming to the racing with us this afternoon.
baby stop scratching.
stop it.
erm and er so, i said to him if he runs us up with the car and then he can bring it back.
and if he slips back and pick, picks us up about i don't know, pam'll tell you when she comes.
i should think about quarter to five.
mm.
cos the last race is at five o'clock i think, but i mean it's only if we go couple of hours.
and erm i mean we've got nothing on then.
well george is working in morning so we shan't be stopping late.
cos he's got to be at work for what?
six o'clock.
are you?
so mm it were just a case of a flying visit cos we've not seen you for nearly twelve months.
is it as long as that?
mm.
mm.
it's over.
it's over.
mm i know.
i know the time's flying.
well in actual fact to te to tell you the honest truth we've been so busy one way and another over the weekends haven't we?
yeah.
and then erm we ain't even been to see barbara and her and her new house and they only live 
fourteen mile away.
yeah.
she keeps ringing us up and saying are you are you are you coming?
are you coming up to see us?
but i don't get time, you know?
by the time we get home and and finished.
this little dog, he's got something .
what are you itching for?
now let your mummy have a look.
oh look rude.
what?
look!
that's where he keeps biting it and scratching it.
that's what it is, it's scratching and biting.
look.
he might have got a flea.
he might have got a flea rudy.
i doubt it .
i dunno.
you see, see they do most dogs go down the fields.
quite possibly he has got a flea duck.
i sprayed him with that stuff.
ah well if he's 
er
i ain't got nothing to put on him.
the only thing i can put on him is some talcum powder.
will you come up the bedroom?
what was that d d d?
what's that, d d d?
that stuff wasn't it?
i mean that stuff spots.
thing is he might lick it mightn't he?
mm.
yeah.
he's alright.
i'll give you we erm we i've got s it's green and it's awful.
but it it's fantastic stuff.
what is it, spray?
no it's cream.
he's done nothing but scratch this morning though.
yeah well it, it's probably that he's just got one.
and on other hand it's probably been there, you've bathed him and it's just left it sore.
see he's got another one there look.
no.
yeah.
yeah it has.
that's a sore.
that's a sore.
something to put on it.
did your uncle george sneeze?
he went atchoo.
he went atchoo.
right well i'll go and get me warm clothes on.
yeah as i was saying, george is gonna nip into town.
down here.
yeah.
cos he wants a pair of shoes.
oh alright.
well rudy can take you down to you know where to go tarrers but if you don't wanna go you're, you've got the telly.
you can stay and wh tell me what time you're think about going.
will you, shall you stop for an e stop for the evening?
alright, or shall you 
it ain't up to me it's up to you.
you're the, you're the driver and you've got to get up for work in the morning and everything else.
no it isn't, it's up to you duck.
it's up to you duck.
no, it's up to you duck.
yeah it is up to you george, really.
you're going to do the driving.
you're going to work.
oh dear.
pack it in.
let mummy give you a drop more spray.
rudy you 
is your white boots alright here george?
eh?
your white boots.
oh aye, yeah.
use them at all?
aye i've once or twice.
are you doing any drumming at all george?
no.
no he's packed up.
he's like me.
i ain't touched my bloody saxophone since we packed up.
no.
aah.
talent going down drain.
yeah, talent going down the drain.
he says don't you dare come near me with that silly spray.
come here.
here here here here here here here here here here
oh dear.
here.
there's hardly anything in it.
but if he is 
you see it it comes off
it comes off the grass you see 
come on come on then, in the garden.
oh.
oh dear.
i'm still no nearer georgie.
eh?
i'm still no nearer.
still you can decide what you're gonna do.
you know him.
well as i say you've no need to stay late late.
i mean 
we'll be here when you come back.
you will?
well that's 
we'll be here when you come back.
that's alright then.
and then er i don't know .
i'll put the heating on rudy.
yeah.
well viv is stopping in, you're going to town .
viv's going up town with you.
viv's got the money.
who's got money?
we've got to leave him then joy.
eh?
oh.
we've got to leave ben here.
he's alright.
he won't hurt.
we shan't be long anyway.
no, he'll be alright.
he's got to learn to stop sometimes.
leave the doors open 
oh we shan't be long.
yes you wouldn't know our little garden now rudy.
just telling him.
no.
now you're putting in bloody flower ponds and all that sort of thing.
water lilies and 
when it gets established.
i mean it looks noth it looks nothing now.
but, you can't rush nature can you?
so 
i mean it's like my garden out the back there.
i mean he runs up and down, he it used to be lovely, all the grass.
well it's gotta be done again, you know?
cut and 
yeah.
and rolled again you know and so on.
you can't do much in the winter, i was saying to george.
no.
it's pointless anyway isn't it, really?
yeah.
yeah.
i mean i done all the front here last weekend
oh yes work's never finished.
you've still got your own brother.
right.
can everybody see that?
you see, you could say, surely there shouldn't be a weaning conflict, because an offspring should say to itself, okay, my mother wants to wean me, to have more offspring, but those offspring she's gonna have are my siblings, i'm very closely related to them.
in fact, i'm as closely related to them as my mother is, if you think about it, because i share half my genes with my four siblings and my mother shares half her genes with my four siblings.
therefore, our degree of relatedness is the same.
therefore, my self interest in having siblings and my mother's self interest in having children are the same.
but that argument is fallacious why?
oh, yes, i've only just said it.
right.
this is the important point, you have to know it.
that's the best way.
but this is the way er puts it, and i think it is a very good way of, of, of putting it, as both and say, the point is, that every individual offspring is twice as closely related to itself, as it is to its, to its siblings.
so it's quite true of course, that the, the individual offspring wo may be affected by inaltruism.
in other words, erm,whateve the r is greater than c. do you remember our, our formula for penaltriate benefit of an altruistic act exceeds the cost discounted by the degree of that's between a half normally.
the offspring ought to be so put to that's perfectly true.
however, the point you have to erm, recall, is that if it's a conflict between parental investment in a sibling and parental investment in myself, i am twice as closely related to myself as i am to my sibling.
so when my parent is handing out the parental investment, i will be selected to want the parent to give the investment to my sibling if the benefit is twice as great as it would be to myself.
but if it's less than twice as great, i'll want it for myself.
does everybody see that?
right, now comes the next step.
how does the parent see it?
we've described it from the offspring's point of view.
how does the parent see it?
because the parent doesn't see it the same way.
how does the parent see it?you, you're a parent, you've got a unit of reproductive success.
erm, what you mean, if, if one reacts about it
mm.
bear in mind that see it but it's more likely to pass on energy units, because it's the stronger, you know.
it's more likely to reproduce it in itself.
yes.
yes, it might, it might, but, but, but now you're getting a little bit, you're getting a bit too, too sophisticated now, we're going to come on to that later.
erm, we're looking at all other things being equal.
let's assume that all the offspring are the same, in quality.
even, let's even make them all the age.
let's say they're all the same in quality, they're all the same in age.
there's still a difference as far as the parents are concerned.
can anybody see what it is?
well, alright, i mean.
let's deal with the first bit first.
why should they treat them all equally?
why, why does the parent regard its offspring equally?
in what sense?
why?
this is the important one.
from the parents' point of view, it is equally related to all its offspring.
now this is, this is the counter-intuitive bit.
supposing i'm a parent.
in fact,let let's do this in terms of a little diagram.
let's put this on the board.
i'll do this in the lecture.
but let's just do it.
it's easier if you do it on the board, and you can see it.
let's, supposing that i am the parent.
okay.
i'm the parent p.
here am i, parent p, okay.
i have two offspring, a and b which are smaller, little er a and b offspring a and offspring b, and they are exactly equal in eve every point of view, size, quality and animal okay.
now, erm, supposing that er, i have ten units of parental investment, and i invest ten in a and ten in b because i'm equally related to both of them.
okay.
now, supposing that i want a to do something for b, like in 's case,a to give up a food item for b. okay.
now as far as i'm concerned, if the benefit to b is greater, supposing for example, they're not the same age, sorry, i shouldn't have said that about being the same age.
er, supposing they're not the same age.
but supposing i invested equal amounts of parental investment in both and supposing that if offspring a gives two units of parental investment to offspring b, the benefit to b's reproductive success will be three minutes, which it could be, if b was younger.
okay, a gives up two units of reproductive success, a food item to b. this benefits b by three units of reproductive success, whereas it would only benefit a by only two units of reproductive success.
in arbitrary units, okay.
now, clearly, i will favour that, because now, b has a total of thirteen units of reproductive success and a has er, a total of eight units of reproductive success, because it's lost some.
so totals here are thirteen and eight.
thirteen and eight is twenty one.
in other words, the total reproductive success that my parental investment has produced is now greater than it was before i started.
so, since i'm equally related to both, in other words, i have an equal number of genes in both offspring,th this, this transfer has promoted my overall reproductive success.
therefore, i as a parent will be selected to want that kind of thing to happen.
okay.
you with me.
now, let's go back to what and say and look at it from offspring a's point of view.
offspring a looks at it differently, because offspring a says, my sibling b has only got half my genes, therefore i will make sacrifices for b, wherever b r and greater than c as we saw.
now, in this case, the, the sacrifice is er, two units of reproductive success, they benefit er b by adding er, one unit of, of reproductive success to it.
so the cost to me is two, er the benefit to my sibling is one, and the degree of relatedness er, is a half.
so the sum has to be one, times a half, is greater than two, which it clearly isn't, cos one times a half is a half, and that is less than two.
in other words, i as the offspring are not gonna want to transfer those two units of reproductive success.
so when my parent says to me, give those two units of parental investment that i just gave you, to, to offspring b i don't want to, because the benefit to offspring b, or rather the genes i share with offspring b, doesn't compensate sate me for the, for the sacrifice.
i'm losing two units of reproductive success.
my offspring is gaining one unit, that it wouldn't have had otherwise.
erm, and, that is, that is not a good deal as far as my shared genes are concerned.
so the 
oh, sorry, three, yes.
okay.
yes, you're right, sorry.
cos it two 
three times half.
sorry, three times a half.
so, it's three units that i'm giving my siblings.
right, three three.
the total benefit is three units of reproductive success, three times a half again, is one and a half, it's not erm, it's not the of two.
if you think about it, er, there are numbers that will, that will make it work.
larger numbers.
if erm, what would it have to be?
it would have to be at least, erm, what would it have to be, it would have to be at least the benefit, yes, the benefit would have to be at least four on the, on the b's side, in order for that to work.
anyway,the these erm, numbers don't matter, this is just an arbitrary example.
the fundamental point that you have to grasp is that parents want any transfers between their siblings that will result in a net gain for the, a, sorry, parents want any transfers between their offspring that result in a net gain for reproductive success.
it doesn't really matter to the parent, which offspring has gained, as long as there is a net gain.
all other things being equal.
the offspring, however, don't take the same view.
for them, all other things being equal, they will only be selected to make a sacrifice, where the benefit is twice the cost.
if you work it out for other relatives, the discrepancy gets even bigger.
as mentioned, if you work it out for maternal erm for maternal cousins, for example the benefit turns out, has to be at least eight times.
so the principle, the fundamental principle is that, conflict between parents and offspring, over a we over a altruism, over self-sacrifice, or, selfishness, which is the other side of it.
because, this works just as well for selfishness, because, if you think of it, selfishness is negative altruism.
it's the opposite altruism.
parents will always want twice as much altruism, or half as much selfishness as the offspring, our certainty to .
that's the whole thing in a nutshell.
in other words, the conflict between parents and offspring, over offspring behaviour is not rooted in culture and nature, as we often think it is.
it's rooted in evolution.
it's rooted in biology.
fo for example, says, that he, about his first erm, experience, was as a field observer of baboons in er, kenya or somewhere.
and this is one of the first, on the first day, he was astonished to see, an older male baboon intervene in a fight between two younger ones and stop it.
and this astonished him, because he'd seen this kind of thing at home.
he'd seen human parents intervene in conflicts between pa er, between er offspring.
you know, like, like er parents did, when her brother was pulling her hair, and she wanted to clout him.
i daresay they intervened to stop the fight.
well, what observed exactly the same thing with, with baboons, and said to himself, why are these animals doing this?
there has to be a reason why, all the male baboons who have got no particular self interest in, well there's no obvious sign, in a fight between two youngsters, nevertheless he intervened to stop it, and he had realized that the reason, well he ultimately realized, development of parental investment, the reason they intervened to stop it, is that parents do not have the same self interest as their offspring do, when it comes to behaviour of offspring.
there's a fundamental ineradicable conflict of interest, because the parents will want any gain to their offsprings net reproductive success.
in other words, they favour any act of altruism.
but the offspring will only favour acts of altruism where the benefit exceeds the cost discounted by the figure we agreed.
how do you erm,
well, what, what i mean is, my genes for altruism are present in my body one hundred percent, okay.
any gene i had for making a sacrifice, on behalf of a a sibling, are one hundred percent in my own body.
however, because of the way it relates in this work, they are only fifty percent present in my sibling, so any sacrifice of gene me er, it's not my actual inquest for your finding of the problems, the reason is, this is something we did last term in, in penaltriusm theory, so the others have got an advantage over you, they've already done it this time.
i'm, i'm not surprised that, erm, you're erm,you you're having problems with it.
but, it, it ba it's basically the penaltriusm idea that, for example, supposing i sacrifice my life, saving three of my siblings, okay?
yeah.
i lose my life, so a hundred percent of my genes for altruism are wiped out.
yeah.
but, i've saved three siblings.
now each of my siblings has fifty percent of my genes.
so a hundred and fifty percent of my genes for altruism are saved in three siblings, compared to one hundred percent lost in me.
that's a net gain for gene for altruism.
therefore it would be selected, cos that's what natural selection is.
more copies of original.
so the point i'm making is that offspring will be prepared to make sacrifices under those conditions, where erm, the r is greater than c. but parents will want offspring to make sacrifices, wherever b is greater than c, and the parent is not concerned with the discount parameter r, but agreed on relatedness, because parents are equally related through their offspring .
so any sacrifice by an offspring, that results in a net gain in reproductive success, is good news for the parent.
because obviously the parents' got genes in all its offspring.
can you see that?
yes.
it's counter see you, the reason, the reason that this seems difficult to understand at first is we're not used to thinking of it that way.
and the reason is normally we look at human relationships from one point of view or another, or assume that perspectives are the same, but clearly they're not the same, the perspective of an offspring is not the same as the perspective of, of the parent.
that was 's basic insight, and it's a very important one.
as i have said, i'll go over it in the, in the lecture in more detail, but this is key insight.
so does everybody see it now?
or at least got hold of the basic as i have said, the best way to do this, is to sit down with a piece of pencil and paper and work it out yourself.
try and do the sums as it were and think it through, and if you do that, i think you'll see that er, it does work out this way and of course, it gets er, even worse if you consider questions like relatedness through parents, because clearly i may be related to my mother's sister's children, my cousins, er no it's actually nieces, because my mother and her sister share genes, but i'm not er necessarily related erm in the same way, erm, through er, my father's er relatives, for example , because although erm, because my er, my, my relationship between mother's kin and my father's kin is purely through marriage, so they have no joint genetic relatedness.
so, although i am genetically related to my mother's brother's, or my mother's siblings' children or my father's siblings' children, the fact is, the siblings of both groups are genetically related to each other.
and that produces further conflict, because the parents now take a different view.
the parents now who they're related to.
but their relatedness is not the same as the child.
for example, my father is not related to my mother's er sister's children.
normally, if we assume, you know, completely non erm non-relatedness of marriage.
so my father doesn't have a kin altruistic interest in me being grouped to my mother's sister's children.
but my mother takes a very different view.
she is related to her sister's children, so she has a genetic self interest in me doing things for my, for, for her er, female, er for her relatives and my father doesn't.
so my parents er aren't gonna ag agree about my altruism.
my mother will want me to be more altruistic to hers, than my father will.
my father will want me to be more altruistic to his relatives, than my mother will.
and this again will be a cause conflict.
sometimes is, and here of course is conflict between and married partners.
how do we judge who's gonna be greater than we can't say that erm, how do we 
in practice, you mean?
how do we do it in practice?
well, i suppose the simple, the short answer is, we don't know exactly how we do it.
the, the longer and more and less precise answer would be presumably, human psychology has evolved in such a way, as to allow us to make those kind of judgments that would normally be reliable.
er, i mean, for example, erm, if we if you made us, well, let's go back to th your example.
giving up your sweets for your brother.
presumably, if you felt sad about that, what you're saying is, you weren't as happy about that as your mother was.
your mother presumably, who forced you to do that, was happier than you were about it happening, and that's what made you sad.
the, in other words, your emotions were reflecting these kinds of calculations.
you seem to have an emotion, that made you resent making a sacrifice to your brother, and, and presumably, would have stopped you making it, if you'd been free to choose.
whereas your mother, presumably, had a different emotion, which made her think this was right and proper, or er, if it pleased her, issuing up this sacrifice.
so it looks as if you, people's emotions have been tuned in such a way, that mothers look on these situations from their point of view and feel happy about it, and offspring like you look at it from their point of view and feel unhappy about it, and your emotions are the way the evolution has equipped you to deal with these problems.
so if you'd been given a free choice, you wouldn't have given your sweets to your brother, would you?
no.
however,ho how, what was the age disparity between you and your brother?
four.
four.
my guess is though, that if, if the age difference had been something like erm, seven or eight years, by the time your mother was asking you to give up sweets for your very much younger brother, you would probably have matured sufficiently and perhaps identified enough with your mother to see yourself playing a more kind of maternal role, as, you know the grown up sister.
you might not have minded giving up your sweets, because you, you'd have got a different kind of gratification.
you would have felt oh, i'm being like mummy.
and, and i think that kind of thing happens, in fact you notice it happening in families.
where there's a big age gap, between the children, the older child often will go along with the parental wishes much more, merely because it's much more mature.
it won't be competing for the same resources.
for example, it may not want the same sweets as, as the little kid, you know little kids like little kids' sweets, and grown up kids like more grown up sweets, they may like bubble-gum and things you wouldn't give to a little baby.
so the very fact that the offspring are more mature, would reduce conflict, because the degree of value of the sources is going to be much greater, in other words, you could give up the sweet.
the, the relative cost to you would be trivial, but the relative benefit to a much younger, erm, sibling of yours, might be much greater.
and because you are so much older, you wouldn't see yourself as competing for the same resources, and you would probably have matured in ways emotionally, that would make you accept and identify with the parental values, rather than, than feel sad or, or resentful, because you felt you were more like your brother, as it were , and you were being discriminated against.
does that answer your question?
i mean, it's not a very good answer, because frankly we don't know,th the full reasons for this, but 
obviously some variations in 
oh, absolutely, it would.
and, of course, i mean, we have, have to remember, that when we talk about ageing altruism, this is just an abstraction.
i mean, we're not, erm, we're just simplifying a very complex situation, and in fact, probably large numbers of genes are, are involved, and they're, there are probably complex interactions between different sorts of altruism. kin altruism will certainly function within families for reasons that we've just been looking at, but this will also be a fertile and erm, encouraging er, framework for sibling altruism.
so it may be that elements of the sibling altruism will develop in families, too.
for example, you might have been a mere, much more happy about making a sacrifice for your brother, giving him a sweet, if you knew that on other occasions, he would give one to you, and because you are related to each other .
in other words, you met each other a lot, and w we know you had the kind of situations that 
what i want to do today.
i got some pens, today, which is great.
ah, that's wonderful, ah, of course, they don't work.
ah, that's just okay, got one that works.
i meant to bring my own, but i forgot, and somebody's used the wrong kind of pen on here, so you can't rub that off.
that was probably in desperation.
thank you.
erm, i have a pause dubbed, you know in comedy shows, they dub laughter, well, i have a pause dubbed.
makes me think the things i'm saying are very clever.
okay.
erm, right, what i want to do this week, is to go on to the next er, work of freud's, that follows after erm, group psychology, or rather to the next two, because i'm gonna back these two books together for, hi there,, erm gonna back these two books together, because as we'll see, they, they really deal with the same subject.
or at least they start, both books really start with the same issue, and the issue in question is in many ways, well, you could argue that it was in many ways fundamental to the social sciences.
and, and the issue is, question is is what is often called a problem of social order.
the problem of order.
what this means is it's the question of how is society possible.
why do people cooperate?
why isn't there total chaos, why doesn't everybody pursue their own self interest at the expense of everybody else, reducing life to a, a state of chaotic erm er, conflict of individuals against each other.
this is what is normally called the problem of social order, and of course it's been around in philosophy and, and social sciences, really since the beginning, and er, some of the greatest and earliest works of er, social philosophy like plato's republic, are really in part about this er question.
how do you, how do you er, create er social, social order.
it often leads on to more prescriptive utopian ideas about what would the ideal society be like.
but, erm, at the initial stage, the problem of order, really goes no further than asking a factual question.
how is society possible?
how in existing societies, does order emerge, because, clearly it does.
now, as i said, there'd been various answers er, to this, throughout history, one of the most interesting and significant as far as we're concerned, in studying freud and the social sciences, was er, that of the english philosopher thomas hobbes.
thomas hobbes, whose dates are fifteen eighty eight to sixteen seventy nine, can you read that?
thomas hobbes was an english philosopher who er, wrote a famous book called leviathan in which he explored this er fundamental question of social order.
hobbes conceived of what he called a state of nature.
this was in fact, the state in which he thought er animals er existed, and it was the condition to which he believed humans beings would be reduced, were it not for the mechanisms that maintain social order.
the state of nature,ac according to the most memorable phrase in the book, er, made life nasty, brutish and short.
because in hobbes' view, the state of nature was one of chaotic anarchy in which every individual fought against every other individual in, to quote another well known phrase from the book, a war of all against all.
primeval chaos.
so this was hobbes' view of the state of nature.
of course society isn't like that.
or at least not all the time.
it may at times become chaotic and disordered, but that, that's not the normal state of affairs, and hobbes' analysis of social order leads him to conclude that social order only becomes possible, when individuals give up some of their freedom, to centralize authority.
in which in hobbes' view, should be a monarch, but in principle be any centralized erm, monopoly of er, of force.
and by doing this, by giving up their, or at least part of their individual freedom everybody benefits, because law and order can be imposed by the er centralized authority,what whatever it may be.
nowadays, one of the explicit controversies which er, real kind of hobbesian view, is er, debate about gun law, for example.
the there's a widespread idea that if you let people have guns the result will be more crimes of violence and more murders, and therefore, people conclude, er at least they do in this country, that only the state should have a monopoly of firearms, so only the police and the army should be allowed to have firearms.
this allegedly, erm, protests the, protects the citizen, and the, the logic of this argument, is really the hobbesian argument, that if you let ordinary individuals have firearms they'll go round killing each other, or so it is alleged.
i don't believe it for one minute, personally, but this is the, this is the theory, and i'll explain why i don't believe it, later.
the, the importance of this, is that freud is often said to have been a hobbesian thinker, in the sense that, er without necessarily being directly influenced by hobbes, he took a similar, a similar kind of view, or at least, so it is said.
you could say, that er, a hobbesian view of human nature, that people are basically anti-social egoistic and er, aggressive, and that if left to themselves, life would be a war, war against all, is what we might call a pessimistic view of human nature.
pessimistic in the sense that is says people are basically nasty, and if society is to be possible, then nastiness has to be controlled in some way or other, and since human nature is anti-social, social order comes about against the grain of human nature as a rule, has to be imposed on human nature.
this is why i call it a pessimistic theory.
you'll see why in a minute.
and i think you can see why i call it pessimistic because, basically it says in the anglican prayer book, there is no good in us, what's in us is, is bad, in the sense of anti-social egoistic, and if people are going to cooperate and if there's gonna be social order, then as it were, it has to be imposed on them.
the good has to be imposed from outside, it's not, it's not in human nature.
so this is what i call a pessimistic er, view of human nature, this hobbesian one.
well, the first book in which freud explicitly takes up this question in the opening pages, is his book of nineteen twenty seven, er the future of an illusion,and his begins, by posing the hobbesian question, although it doesn't mention hobbes, but, it's the fundamental point he makes, that civilization goes against the grain of human nature, and the question he asks himself is, how does er, order, morality.
civilization come about, and in this book he gives part of the answer, and concentrates on that, and part of the answer he gives is, that it comes about through the institutions of religion.
religion acts as a restraining force on human nature, and er, raises people, as it were, to a higher, to a higher level, by for example giving them more proscriptions, like the ten commandments.
so i think it's easy to see that religion fulfils this civilizing socially controlling role, but of course, this has been a popular theme in sociological writing in the course of the twentieth century, indeed, you could go so far as to say this, it is has become a cliche, in twentieth century social science.
it wasn't quite so much a cliche in nineteen twenty seven, but erm, nevertheless, this is the starting point of freud's er, freud's analysis.
freud concedes that religion does indeed, have this restraining, civilizing role.
well, having agreed with that, freud then, faces a problem, because the problem he faces is, that in the previous book of his, that we looked at er, that he had published erm, what fourteen or so years earlier, totem and taboo where he had talked about the origin of religion.
he had given a picture of religion, which represented it as primarily concerned with guilt, with taboos against incest, and as er, representing the origins of civilization in primeval societies like those of the australian aborigines, and freud erm, remarks in the opening pages of civilization and discontents that totem and taboo was never meant to be a complete theory of religion.
he says, all i was doing in totem and taboo, was trying to explain totemism, a very specific form of religion.
i wasn't trying to advance a theory about religion in general, says freud, but now i am, and in future of an illusion, he turns to the question of religion in general , not just er, teutonic religion, as in totem and taboo, but religion in general .
so the question he goes on to is, given its civilizing restraining role how did, what er, explanation can we give for religion in general?
and, his answer to that, is that psychoanalysis can give us a very interesting and unique insight into, into religion, and this was an insight which had emerged in the course of, the nineteen twenties, following the developments of psychoanalysis that occurred after the first world war, which we've already looked at and is essentially the concept of transference.
i don't think freud ever uses the word transference in the book, i may be wrong, but er, it may be mentioned, i'm pretty sure it isn't, it certainly isn't in any prominence.
you recall that transference is a concept that freud introduced into psychoanalysis to explain the way in which the patient in an analysis, tended to cast the analyst in different roles of different people, usually from their past and usually from their childhood, so the analyst would play the role of father, mother, brother, sister or whatever by turns, very often, in the typical analysis.
and i think you can see that the, the word transference here is, is in the sense that transference erm, alludes to transferring something from one place to another, as if the feeling, which were originally experienced, for example, in the family, were being transferred to the, to the analytic situation, to the, to the analysis.
so this is how freud originally discovered transference, as an observation made in the course of analysis, and as we saw, erm, a couple of weeks ago, whenever it was i was talking about group psychology, transference was a fundamental concept in freud's theory of groups.
because basically what freud was saying was, the group we create semi-unconscious, the, the family.
the leader creates the parental role, the followers play the role of the children, and er, as i pointed out in the, in the lecture when i talked about that, often this is erm, explicitly indicated by symbolic terms, in groups, such as papa, erm, erm,whi which gives you the word pope.
erm, er, class brothers, sisters in a struggle, these kinds of phrases er, refer to this.
well, what freud does in this book, is to effectively say, religion is a transference phenomenon.
he explains the appeal of religion in general to people, by saying religion is a transference.
what happens in religion, is that the deity or deities play the biblical role, and the believers and the er, people here below, as it were, play the role of the, of the child.
and this makes sense to freud, because he believes that people believe in, in religion because of the gratifications it gives them.
for example, if you believe in religion, you believe that the world and life has some kind of order and meaning.
if you don't believe in religion, you might think that er, the world was just kind of here for no particular reason, and er, that human existence was just a kind of accident or something happen happened, and er, has no has no greater significance.
but if you're religiously inclined, then clearly the universe looks a bit different, because the universe has a creator, and having a creator gives it some kind of meaning.
it implies for example, it was created for some kind of purpose.
so freud says, religion giv gives people a sense of meaning.
it explains the inexplicable.
where do we come, you know, it's, it's, it's, it answers the life, the universe, and everything questions, you know.
why are we here?
you know, where do we come from?
the kind of thing you ask yourself when you've got a bad hangover.
you know, wake up on a monday morning, with a bad hangover, and you think, oh my god, you know, what is life about, is it really worth going on?
er, this is the kind of life, universe and everything question.
however, religion can, can do a lot more than that.
for example, many religions, er, give people reassurance in the sense that, for example , not only do they say there is a, a god, or gods or whatever there may be, but these er, deities play a providential role.
they provide for people.
many religions, certainly judaeo-christianity in the religions of that tradition, which of course includes islam and mormonism, are some of the worlds most important religions.
er, these religions certainly, and many others for that matter too, portray the divinity as providential, as providing the world for human beings and as being concerned with human welfare.
well, this is, is very reassuring, says freud.
it's nice to think, you know, there's someone up there, sitting in the cloud, watching over us and providing, as it were.
this is er, this is a great reassurance.
again, the, the deity, in many religions is regarded as er, enforcing morality and justice, if not in the here below, then very often in the hereafter.
so many religions, such as the religion of ancient egypt, for instance,whi which made a great fetish of this, has a belief in a judgment after death, followed by eternal retribution er, heaven effectively for the just and er, damnation effectively for the unjust, and some religions like catholicism stick in an intermediate state pur purgatory, where you can work, work off a sentence, as it were , for a few, for a few thousand years.
kind of a heavenly parole system.
and if you work off your sentence of pur you get parole to heaven at the end of it which is very nice.
erm, but you see the point i am making, the idea is that er religion appeals to people, because they, they see the in injustices of the world, erm, you know if er, er, injustice is an, is an inevitable, erm, experience, erm, some of us erm, might be inclined to think especially if you live under the british system of er criminal justice, and so if you can't get justice here, perhaps you can after death, because god is ultimately just, and no mistakes will be made in heaven, as it were.
er, there, er, the er sinners will be published, erm,the sinners will be published, er, sorry, that's a, that's a good point, see if i can remember that.
sinners will be published, er punished, the sinners will be punished, and er, the just will be erm, just wi will, er will er will be rewarded.
so that's another great, wishful thought, the great gratification.
particularly if you have a sense of injustice in life.
again, religion appeals to people, erm merely in the idea of an afterlife.
after all, er, the idea of death being the end of everything, isn't particularly gratifying to people, but er, the idea of an afterlife is, is very much more appealing, because it means death isn't the end, it's just a kind of transition from one state to another, and it's nice to think that er, there could be an afterlife, particularly if you can look forward to it, erm, in a, in a better place than here.
so in all these kinds of different ways, religion provides succour erm, gratification and er, is the fulfilment of people's wishes, particularly th their frustrations, their erm, feelings of er being the victims as it were, of the world, can be satisfied to some extent by religious belief, which holds out some, some prospect of and hope, at least in the afterlife, if not, if not in this life.
so said freud, it's no wonder that people believe in religion, because religion can provide you with a lot, with a lot of gratification, but the fundamental psychological explanation for this, says freud, is that these feelings that religion gratifies in adult life, are transferences of feelings that we all had in infancy.
in other words, these things i've been talking about, map, if i may use that concept again from mathematics, they map to earlier feelings.
feelings in early childhood, where we were, indeed, helpless, where the world was, in fact, meaningless, where we were er subject as it were to erm, the arbitrary erm to, to, to arbitrary fate, and felt it because we were young children, but in which there really was a power that looked after us.
there was a power that was providential, would provide for us.
we did have er, judges and censors who would judge us and reward us if we d did good and punish us if we did evil.
we did live in a state, where there were others knew more about the world than we did, and could make sense of it for us.
those were our parents.
so the parents, says s says freud, play the role in th the reality of infancy, that the deity, or deities play in the fantasy or illusion of, of religion.
religion creates the illusion, that those parental forces which were indeed watching over us and guarding us while we were young, still do so in adult life.
and freud is careful here to use the word illusion.
he distinguishes in the book between an error an illusion and a delusion.
an error he says, is just a factual misapprehension, but er, you know, you could say er, the capital of australia is vienna.
well that would be an error, because it's actually canberra, but you could be, you yo that's, that's a mistake er, that anybody could make.
however, erm, thinking that er, one day, er, you might marry erm, a prince or princess, freud says is an, is an illusion, in the sense that er, people do sometimes marry princ princes and princesses, it could happen, it's not very likely to happen to any particular individual who might have that wish, but it could happen.
erm, as we know does happen.
not for long actually , but it does happen.
erm, so that's an illusion, a delusion, in other words, an illusion is something that could happen, but the difference between an illusion and an error, is an error is just a cognitive mistake, an illusion is a cognitive mistake that is kept going by a wish.
an, an illusion, erm, presupposes that there is some kind of er, of wish er,under underlying it.
and the wish keeps the illusion going as it were.
a delusion, on the other hand, is a, is a much more serious kind of factual error in which the element of wish fulfilness becomes so strong that it won't countenance any evidence against it.
so a delusion is something that people insist on believing, erm, no matter what.
for example, erm, in erm, paranoia, delusions of persecution where people believe that is plotting against them, and no matter what you do, erm, you know if you said well look, we can prove to you we are not plotting against you, the paranoic says to you, why do you want to prove this to me, if it's not true, you know.
you can't win.
not against a delusion.
so freud is not saying religion is a delusion or an error, he's saying it's an illusion, and it's an illusion because it's a factual mistake maintained by wish fulfilment.
it's a factual mistake, of course, because er, there aren't in fact deities looking after us in the way there were parents in, in childhood.
our parents after all, were, were real people.
they actually existed.
whereas erm, divinities exist only in people's er, hopes or imaginations.
they don't er, you can't see them in the same way you could go and see your parents.
and er, this illusion is maintained according to freud, because of the wishes that people have.
these wishes go straight back to childhood, and so religion represents a transference from childhood and a kind of emotional infantilism in which people try and make out that they're still children, as it were, even though they, even though they really aren't.
and then of course, the other characteristics that go with religion, and that he had emphasized in other books on totem and taboo, like guilt, the feeling that you ought to obey the moral commands of the parents, because after all the parents weren't just benevolent entities who looked after you and rewarded you and praised you, but they were your judges and censors as well .
they punished you when you did the wrong thing, and they rewarded you when, when, when they did, when you did the right thing.
so the believing in religion with, with moral codes, particularly in those religions which have rather strict moral codes, and demand quite a lot from the believer, in terms of adherence to the er, to the moral law even those religions can be explained in terms of freud's transference theory, because that too, comes from childhood.
the thing that you have to obey, if you don't obey you will be punished.
that too, is a transference from the childhood situation, where the child is under the authority of the parent.
in adult life the, the, the authority of religion stems from this, from this transference effect.
now here of course, and, and by now we've reached the closing pages of the book, though it's actually quite a short book, erm, it doesn't take very long to read.
here, freud in terms of paradox, because on the one hand, he started out asking the problem of order.
how is order possible, and answered it in part, by saying, well, religion is a civilizing order creating force.
in the next step of the argument, he then said, well, religion is a transference, and therefore a form of infantilism, so now he seems to be criticizing religion, but if he's criti criticizing religion by saying it's an illusion, surely he's jeopardizing civilization, because the danger, as he points out in the book, if you take religion away from people, you say, look, this is just an illusion, god doesn't exist.
the ten commandments are just a myth it carries no more force whatsoever.
might the consequence of that be, that people then go out and murder and steal and rape and fight wars, and do all, do all these kinds anti-social things?
in other words, if you say, religion is an illusion, are you undermining and destroying social order?
this is a this is a paradox that freud has to face up to.
and in the closing pages of the book, he answers this this er, problem, by saying, well look, er, you don't have to base morality, civilization, and social order on an illusion.
on the contrary, freud says, basing it on an illusion is, is very very dangerous.
because you see, the thing with illusions is, it's okay as long as people believe.
for example, you know, you could frighten a child into i mean this is not an, an analogy freud uses, this is one i thought of, but it's in the same spirit as his argument.
you could, for example, frighten a child into conformity with your wishes by saying that erm, you know, if, if the child doesn't go to bed at the right time, the bogie man will come and eat them up, or something.
you might say something like that.
and i can remember being frightened of the bogie man when i was a little er child.
my elder brother used to terrify me with it.
erm, okay the bogie man would come and eat me up.
erm, well as long as the child is, is young enough to believe in the bogie man, everything is fine, and that child may well go to bed on time and er, and er, shuts its eyes and goes straight to sleep er in fear.
but what happens if the child matures a bit, and realizes that the bogie man is just er, just er an invention, created to, to set fear in it?
in the first place, says freud, the child won't obey any longer, necessarily, because now he's got nothing to fear, and secondly, a child might resent the lie that has been told to him.
you know, i was told about the bogie man, but the bogie man, i now know, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't exist.
so, freud says, trying to build morality on the basis of religion, is like trying to build a house on sand, because the foundations won't hold.
the foundations are illusory.
what we need, says freud, is a sure foundation for social order, and the only foundation that will do is, is reality.
the trouble with religion, is that transference is based on an illusion and it serves the pleasure principle ultimately, because it's a tremendous wish fulfilment.
wish fulfilments as we know, and what we saw about dreams and so on, so the pleasure principle that reigns in the unconscious.
and as we saw, the unconscious is out of contact wi with reality and so need take no account of it.
however, says freud, ideally, morality and social order should be based, not on the pleasure principle, but on the reality principle, and, and, and he ends up with this book invoking the idea that science should replace erm, religion in, in this respect.
in other words that science should establish insights into reality which make social order erm, both possible and well founded.
now in this particular book, freud doesn't say very much about what these insights er, are.
and er, as you'll see, probably next week's, i'm not going to get to this now, er, next week, or possible the week after, even, depending on how long it takes me to get there, i will suggest to you that the revolution now taking place in behavioural science, does suggest wh what they are, and that there are in fact some deeply countering intuitive insights, erm, into this whole issue, which have only emerged in the last few years.
but er, this is just by way of an anticipation, the the general conclusion comes for instance, in this rather generalized book, and relatively short book, is that we ought to base variety and social order on science, and its insights, and certainly not on, on religion, and, and there he, there he leaves the question.
however, he takes it up again, at much greater length, in his next book of nineteen thirty, civilization and its discontents.
this book erm, begins, once again with the hobbesian problem.
the,wi with the, with the question of social order.
only in this book, it comes out even more clearly.
civilization, says freud, is based on the suppression, repression and inhibition and frustration of the id
people's individual er, drives, especially their sexual and aggressive drives, which are deeply compromised by having to live erm, in a civilized er, society.
so er, in so far as human nature can be equated with the id, it seems to me, perfectly correct to say that frob erm,frob i was going to say, freud, freud was a hobbesian thinker.
hobbes was a freudian thinker, no.
freud was a hobbesian thinker, erm, in the sense that the id, certainly was egoistic, anti-social and everything that thomas hobbes said about human nature, er, could apply to the id, that's perfectly true, and most people see this, and it's er it, it's a commonplace, particularly in the social science writing on freud.
and a lot of the book is concerned with developing this theme, and that i thought came out quite well in the classes, so i won't bother to repeat all that, because i thought we did that fairly thoroughly in, in the class.
i don't want to waste your time.
what people don't notice, however, and is so important, is that the id is not the only institution of a personality.
as we saw, there is a second area of a personality, which psychoanalysis during the nineteen twenties and thirties was exploring actively and this is the ego.
if we now look at the ego, as opposed to the id, then immediately we see that it is, it is emphatically not true to claim that freud was a hobbesian social thinker.
because the ego was not anti-social but pro-social, and we've already seen er two ways in which that is true.
when we looked at group psychology and analysis of the ego, we saw that it was processes that occur in the ego, such as identification and projection, that make social groups possible, that bring about the social order of psychological groups.
so that makes the ego pro-social, and in future of an illusion, we saw freud arguing, that there were fundamental pro-social currents of feeling in the ego, in terms of the ego's wish fulfilment for, for example, a benevolent god, a divine justice and things like this.
these are wishes of the ego, and they're gratified in the illusion of religion, but as we've also seen, freud erm, notices even though he doesn't comment, that the illusion of religion is pro-social, in the sense that it maintains social order, systems and morality, and so on.
so it seems to me that those sociologists, and there've been a lot of them, who have taken the view that freud like some other social thinkers, like any of their kind, for example, was a, was simply a hobbesian thinker, hadn't really read their freud, or at least they hadn't read their freud after about world war one.
you could certainly take that view of freud, and it would have been true, perhaps, if freud had died er, before, er, nineteen eighteen, shall we say, or in fourteen.
then i think people would be justified in saying, well, freud was essentially a hobbesian social thinker.
that was the time when freud was exploring just the id.
after world war one, as we've been seeing, he was exploring the ego, and his writing about the ego, in particular, group psychology and future of an illusion, show quite clearly that he saw the ego as a pro-social fact in the personality.
something that impelled the individual towards identifying with other people, performing groups, to accepting norms and values for these super-ego, which emerges during this time, and so on.
so i think the, the statement freud was a hobbesian social thinker is just wrong.
it's factually wrong, or at least it's factually wrong, if you were taking note of freud's writings after world war one.
if you look at all freud's writings, i think what you have to say is, if you want to say that, you must make the qualification that the id is a hobbesian erm, thing as it were, but the ego is a pro-social erm, part of the personality.
now here, it's useful to contrast the hobbesian approach, which i call the pessimistic view of human nature, with one that i would call optimistic.
now the optimistic view of nature is the exact opposite.
a good example of this, if we wanted to er, have somebody as it were, to counterbalance er, the english philosopher hobbes, would be the french philosopher jean jacques rousseau, writing a little bit later, not much actually seventeen twelve to seventeen seventy eight erm, about a century later.
jean jacques rousseau, famous french philosopher, whose view of human nature, was what i would call optimistic, in the sense that, by contrast to thomas hobbes, john rousseau believed that human beings were basically good.
he believed that human beings were born sociable, cooperative, altruistic, nice, civilized and that if, in later life, they showed anti-social selfish, criminal erm, egoistic tendencies, it was because of what happened to them after they were born.
it was because of the effects of other people and society on them, that they were corrupted as it were.
i once met a social worker, this was years ago, i i was gonna say, this couldn't happen today, but it probably could, erm, one hopes it couldn't happen today, but it probably would happen today, too.
a social worker, who said to me, inside every, every, what she say so inside er, every juvenile delinquent, there's a little leonardo da vinci trying to get out.
well, if you believe that, i think you'll believe anything.
but erm, that's the idea, you see, that these kids, er well, you know, they may be delinquent, and do lots of nasty things, but it's only the way they've been treated by society.
basically, human nature is good.
this was, this is what i call an optimistic view, and this was rousseau's view of human nature, that basically people were good, and er, cooperative, and it was the bad things in human nature that had to be explained, not the good.
the good was natural.
but the bad things, and of course, rousseau's solution to the problem of order was quite different from hobbes'.
hobbes' solution was, order must be imposed on a recalcitrant human nature, to make society possible, rousseau's theory was, if only people could be liberated from the things that makes them selfish, selfish and anti-social, they would come together in a natural social contract, where individuals would spontaneously give up their freedom, in order to gain the benefits of social cooperation, and rousseau's view was, if only people were, were fully rational, and could free themselves from the unfortunate effects of, of er civilization, they would enter into a state of erm, perfect society in which they could er, associate er without the, the necessity of things like the state or or whatever.
very very optimistic view of human nature.
later, erm, this was developed by people like marx, who emphasized the ec economic role, erm, the e economic aspect of erm, of er, the ill effects of civilization.
but basically the idea, erm, is i think well represented by er, by rousseau, and it's a view that has been very influential, for instance, in modern education, and some people would say it explains the disaster that erm th that some people think er modern education is.
now, the these two views of human nature, the pessimistic, as i'm calling it, and the optimistic lead to two different views of the child, as i've already implied.
the rousseau view of the child, is one where children are basically er, noble savages.
are born free, but everywhere in the chain, as to quote a famous phrase from rousseau, the kind of noble savage view of the child.
this regards the child as not in need of socialization or control, but basically er, good in its own right.
in the best example, in modern education, is that er, progressive school, what's the school, summer hill or the school where the kids are allowed to do absolutely everything they like.
erm, very revealing.
erm, er, if you, if you know anything about the kind of thing that actually goes on er, it's nothing like the it's supposed to be.
but that was the, that was the theory that it was founded on.
that, that, you know, if you give children complete freedom, they will, they will know, as it were,wh what's best for them, you don't need any, any rules, or anything.
or at least er, not any rules they don't impose on themselves.
so that's the, that's the, there's an optimistic view of, of, of the child.
the pessimist, the hobbesian thinkers, have a pessimistic view of the child.
they see the child as basically a, a little animal, a wild animal, who has to be tamed, and er, disciplined and controlled by er, various means, and er, this is the, i think the view of the child that was more popular in british education, at least traditional education, which erm, for the public schools of eton, which in this country was based on er, on er brutality, i think there's the only word you can call it.
certainly, i'd never erm, forgiven er people for beatings i got at school.
i mean there's downright brutality, and, and, and deserved to be called nothing else.
but anyway, the idea that the brutality is er justified, and you have to beat the hell out of little kids because er, if you don't you won't civilize them.
this goes, i think you can see, with the pessimistic view, the hobbesian view, that for civilization order has to be, has to be imposed.
well, where does freud stand in all this?
you, seems to me that, if you think about it, the freudian view is what i would like to call a realistic one.
because just as i was saying, that freud's view was that, okay, there's the id and that may be hobbesian, but there's also the ego, which if you like is, is more kind of rousseauness it's pro-social, and therefore i would say freud is not a pessimistic, or an optimistic social thinker, but something in between.
what i would call a realistic social thinker, namely, somebody who saw there is good and bad in human nature.
freud didn't go to one extreme or the other, he didn't go to the hobbes extreme and say there is no good in us you know, we're just anti-social egoists, although he did know that was true of the id.
nor did he go to the rousseau extreme, saying that we're basically noble savages.
but he did recognize that there was strong pro-social currents in the, in the ego, and the resulting view, i think, is what i would call a realistic view of human nature.
which i think any sensible person ought to come to, which is, that human beings are neither basically bad, evil, and anti-social, no more are they basically good, altruistic and cooperative.
they're a mixture of both.
sometimes, people can be evil, egoistic, destructive and aggressive, and think only of themselves as we know to our cost, and as we see all around us in the world, from time to time.
but at other times, as we also know, people can be remarkably altruistic and committed to others.
you've only got to think of the career of erm, audrey hepburn who died today, or yesterday, whenever it was.
well, she's a shining example of that.
the audrey hepburns in this world, may not be as numerous, unfortunately, as the people running around in bosnia, or er somalia, but they do exist, and you have to see that there are both of these sides of human nature.
people can be very good, they can also be very bad.
it seems to me the freudian view takes both into account.
furthermore, it doesn't just take both into account in terms of some vague philosophical waffle, you know, that anybody could come to, sitting on a bar stool, after they've had enough er, dry martinis, you know as people sometimes good, people sometimes bad.
i mean that, this kind of, that, that, that's a cliche.
i mean, the freudian insight is a much deeper one.
it says the personality is structured in such a way that there is an egoistic anti-social area, the id.
that there is another pro-social erm, constituent, the ego, and furthermore, these are different, and different things occur in each, and different processes occur.
for example, the pro-social erm, factors mobilize projection and identification, and the anti- social ones are to do with the instinctual drives, and, and, and so on .
so it, it, it's a, it goes much beyond merely a kind of er, cliche, of saying, all people can be sometimes good or people can be sometimes bad, and it tells you about the specific way in which this th this comes about.
an example, er, of what i'm talking about, which i think shows this very nicely, and is, is something i wanted to mention, because it's important in itself, is the shifts in freud's views on anxiety.
as we saw, in the early phase of psychoanalysis, before world war one, when it was dominated by the view of freud and in the eighteen nineties, and when psychoanalysis was mainly id analysis, and concerned with the unconscious, freud took the view of anxiety as a pathological transformation of the libido.
the libido was then regarded as a kind of emotional torrent, that if it was frustrated underwent a pathological transformation into anxiety.
er, i think i mentioned this, i hope i did, pretty sure i did.
after world war one, in the second phase of the psychoanalysis, when he was concerned with the analysis of ego, anxiety became a sense of danger in the ego, and the ego felt anxiety when it was threatened, and as a result, there was three sorts of anxiety neurotic anxiety, when the ego was threatened by the drives of the id moral anxiety, when it was threatened by punishment from the super ego, and realistic anxiety, when it was threatened by dangers from the outside world.
some early analysts, though not freud,
i, i emphasize, but some of his followers, took the view that anxiety, for example, in children, was pathological, and they, that generation of analysts tried to bring up their children to be free of anxiety, and, and then, you still get this in a lot of popular child psychology today, the idea that anxiety is always bad and always wrong.
anna freud writing many years later in her classic book, erm, normality of pathology in childhood, erm, candidly admits that er, the first generation of analysts was wrong about this, and she, she, she, she candidly says that the analytic profession changed its view, although freud never did.
freud always regarded anxiety as normal, but the erm, many of his colleagues didn't, and, and anna freud erm admits that er, experience proved that er, her father's original view turned out to be, turned out to be the right one.
and she says that attempts to free children of anxiety proved to be emissary.
the reason is that erm, if the child ceases to be afraid, for example, of the parents, or of outside, of outside discipline or control, it instead becomes anxious and terrified of its own instinctual drives which it can't control.
an anxiety appears to be a permanent fixture in human mental life, it's not one that you can, you can live without.
of course, if you take the freudian view of anxiety as a danger signal in the, in the ego, that, that makes sense.
and anna freud's conclusion is, that all children will experience anxiety, but what they experience anxiety about will, will vary, and clearly the best thing is that they experience anxiety about things that are important and are real, rather than anxiety about things that are unimportant and unreal.
but in general, she admits that there was, there proved to be no way of freeing the child from anxiety.
so anxiety would be, you see, would be something that points out what i'm calling this realistic view of human nature.
that the, the other point to be made about the pessimistic and optimistic theories is, they, because they're extremely elusive, they can easily suggest the idea of utopias, and you get two different sorts of utopias.
the pessimistic thing was, the hobbesians always looked back to the past, some golden age of order in the past, you know, when, when people knew what to do and er, and er, things were right as it were, and th they tend to want to restore some ideal state of order and authority that existed in the past, which was much better than now, because civilization has gone to the dogs, and been corrupted and so on .
and they look back, and er, these pessimistic views are usually reactionary.
politically, they're usually reactionary.
the pessimists want to go back.
i mean effectively, i always wanted to go back to the middle ages er, with, with the history books of english society.
english society, of course didn't work out that way.
the realis the opt optimistic theories, on the other hand, also had their utopias, but they look forward.
for the, for the optimists, the, the utopia is, is always in the, in the future, and these people er, tend to be revolutionaries.
they tend to say we must overthrow the existing social order and establish a new just social order, when human beings will be liberated from the corrupting erm, alienating er forces, that er, make them bad, and everything will be, everything will be okay.
the freudian realistic view it seems to me, couldn't allow you to draw either conclusion, you couldn't, neither conclude, that things were better in the past and therefore we ou ought to go back to the golden age, nor, could you conclude that things will ever be any better in the future.
anxiety for example, is something that human beings will always experience, and to think that you can free them from anxiety in some future utopia, or go back to some ordered erm, ideal state in the past, where everyone was so secure, that they would never feel anxiety, is just a myth according to freud.
freud's view is a realistic one of human nature, which says that people will experience anxiety and frustration and er, all kinds of erm, feelings that they may not want to have.
but they will experience those feelings, because human nature is not at either of these extreme points, it's neither erm, perfectly good, nor perfectly bad, it's a, it's a mixture of both, and consequently, although you can improve the world, for it doesn't deny you can improve the world, or make it worse, of course.
to think that you could bring about a utopia, and perfect human nature in one way or another, is really a wildly er, optimistic and er, is in itself, er, some kind of illusion.
well, at that point i will end what i have to say for today, and er, carry on with this next week.
thank you very much 
yes, yes, you can, can catch me now.
hobbesian theory being 
yes, that's right,
yes, well, commiserations
er, no, it's a bit tough, i suppose 
you could bring some evolutionary insight to it.
oh yes, oh yes yes, that's right 
oh yeah
are you keeping that sort of thing that that in some ways could be considered to be a system.
if i let it run away with me, it might, you know 
tie it up 
i mean, if you like me to leave your paper, to write to one, i'll be quite pleased to look at it 
okay, alright,
if you want to discuss it with me.
okay.
i mean if you want do a paper for this group, on, you know, on the sociological periods of evolution, and, and how they look from our perspective.
you could substitute it, perhaps for that one.
yeah, okay, okay well look,
have a think about it 
yeah, okay.
if, if you want to do a version of it first, i think we, we, we'll appreciate it very much.
okay, fine, okay yes.
in order to get, because i hesitate to give you more work to do, you got enough work.
fine.
but, think about it, it could be interesting.
yeah, okay, sure, fine.
we'll have words about it.
thank you.
come on in.
now, i have some good news for you, and you could do with some good news, couldn't you?
yes.
least, i hope it's good news, from what you said last night, i think it would be good news.
i have got you a computer, one of these would you like one of those?
i'd love one of those.
right, we can get you one.
i'll tell you what's happened.
the thing is, the school has just launched a, a new programme to lend portable computers to graduate students, okay?
now, we've got one in this department, like this, and er, one of our graduate students was very interested in it, and since she was just finishing her p h d the in some of the ways, some of the most erm, outspoken erm, persons for this, but i'm certainly not alone.
there's a growing body now, of people who are thinking along similar lines, and er, so it's, it, it's, i think you'd be unwise to wipe this off just, just as my eccen eccentricity.
i mean, it may be that.
look, we're gonna have to stop.
we can carry on with this next week, as, as you see, we've touched on a big topic, so we'll, we'll leave it to you to introduce next week's discussion, whatever way you think fit, erm, that raises other issues which you want to talk about.
okay.
thanks very much.
and well done that was an excellent 
a little contradictory.
erm, i read another erm, book on believing this.
yeah, fine.
er, i have an example of 
right.
could be, certainly quite old, erm, and a socialist, of course.
yeah.
you ought to point out.
right.
not completely true.
ah, let me just say what leaders of peacetime margaret was after early life was that a cold mother who was erm, full of personality people of london biography of the leader of the conservative, because at least half the book is about 
that's where it belongs.
erm.
at least not fully in command of ourselves, let alone the social and political world around us.
it's certainly wrong though,i think erm, there was erm, the question 
mm.
er, but i do believe that made very important the reason, er, the first question is and people weren't reading about that.
erm,
well 
well done, that was absolutely first rate, i mean erm, it was a difficult er, task you had, especially as the book wasn't in the library, of which i am deeply apologetic, because i thought it was, and er, i thought you er, you coped with a very difficult assignment extremely well, and i think you can have an extra and i'm sure everyone else thinks so too.
er, as i have said, i haven't done woodrow wilson before in the past, so, so it was an experiment, and erm, i must admit,yo you rose to the occasion excellently.
the choice of literature, as you realize was meant to be contrasting, and i put book down as an example of what i thought was the worst possible, er, use of use of psychoanalysis, kind of gutter journalism, erm and which you didn't look at, and it's, it's no criticism of you erm, because er, you had your work cut out with what you did do, but the reason i put down gandhi's truth, if anybody's ever read that, have they?
this is the exact opposite from , because it's erm, it idealizes gandhi.
it kind of builds gandhi up into a great er figure, as it were, ignoring his feet of clay, erm, which he definitely had.
so erm,book on which is kind of a character association by a pop cycle analysis and gan erm, book on gandhi, which is using cycle analysis, of, of, of, of tremendous contrast.
and er, er, the question is of course, where does freud's book on woodrow wilson belong?
does it belong in the kind of erm, camp or not?
well, erm, what do other people think?
but isn't, isn't that the quote at the beginning of your book, er, unsigned quote, erm, doesn't that say something about how, how, you know, long aired radio biography of someone is very political or sort of er, disregard all of the important things they really done, and i don't know, i don't know if it's er, pertinent erm, but obviously, in freud, freud wanted to set out to criticize wilson erm, so he, you know, he went in with it.
i mean, he was 
yes.
obviously going to buck out of the
he was.
biographical allegiance which made him look bad.
yes.
erm, and er, on other hand he got everything, got his own book out biography 
of course, i think if, if, if freud were here, he would defend himself, by saying i was quite open about my prejudice against wilson at the beginning of the book, as reminds us, freud says quite clearly, how he felt about all this.
but i think freud would have also gone on to say that he had very good reason for resenting wilson, because he blamed wilson personally for the unjust peace, after er versailles, but er, was indirectly, many people would argue, going to lead to the second world war, and er, so freud's defence i think would be, this man really was responsible.
because after all, the situation in my, i don't know, i mean, i don't know how well you know your modern history.
i'm not certain, i'm not a great expert on it, but erm, the situation seems to be, that after the first world war, the central power was germany and austria, were defeated.
er, france, er was, er battle ravaged and its economy in ruins.
this country was bankrupt, and had to borrow money from the united states of america to keep going, and er, russia had just had a revolution and was still in chaos.
so the united states was really the only world power erm, erm, as were able to do anything.
in, in some ways, the situation you know, was a bit like, like what it is now, since the collapse of the soviet union, only more so, i would say, because the, the other powers were more, were even more prostrate than is, is, is the situation today.
so for a while, the president of the united states effectively had world power, there was no other power in the world who could stand up to the u s, er, after, after, world war one for one argument anyway, and i think freud's er, defence disposition would be, woodrow wilson was the man who came to europe, saying he would bring a just peace for all, and went away leaving a total mess, and, and, freud's er argument in his book is, told us was, well, the mess er, was really wilson's own doing, and if it was his doing, what was it in his character that allowed him to er,si to on some lloyd george, who bullied him into getting most of what they wanted.
so, that would be freud's defence, now, i suppose you would have to know a lot more about modern history, to, to know, if this was really true or not, but erm, the the er, question that freud was really asking himself, really was, why did wilson let us down, because freud admits that he regarded wilson, when he came to europe as a saviour.
you know, here, here was somebody coming from outside europe who would bring, you know, peace and justice for all.
let's hope, i quoted the american constitution correctly, did i?
erm, you know, perhaps the kind of way people look on president today.
you know, which is only day one of his inauguration.
we'll see what happens to him, president .
but erm, that would be for its, for its er,defence, i suppose.
is it fallible i mean how do, how do modern america let's ask er and erm, er and .
how do modern americans see woodrow wilson?
erm
what's your image of him?
er, i don't know, i think he forgot you know,
yeah
i don't, i don't 
i remembered him having in my school library 
mm.
he was regarded as a very very smart man 
mm.
and er, one of our most intellectual presidents.
yeah.
and i don't think, i don't think most people considered him vulnerable, very vulnerable.
i mean, they know that working 
yeah.
but i don't think most people, er, would necessarily consider it than now on the european side, they might consider .
erm, but you know, but i think they did.
i think it marks the beginning of the united states their first real world power.
so i think that's, that's how he was 
i see.
mm.
so people don't blame him for the consequences of versailles?
i don't think so.
no, no.
to answer my own question, i did.
i mean, i think 
yeah.
no, that's true, that's true.
what about er, european history, who's studied this period in modern history at school?
have you?
yes.
what question do you go to woodrow wilson?
frankly, he was a 
i see.
no.
everything he wants.
but the things is, he wanted to a lot of things about came up like in the middle 
mm.
ages before the war you more you think about it,
mm.
yes.
i see, yes.
anyone else got a view on this?
he was a very odd man, though 
mm.
as freud said, that at fourteen adult life
good one, doc, yes,
and erm, i mean er, the last eighteen months of his presidency he erm, settled with mrs wilson because he would be incapable 
yeah, the, of course, er, freud had one advantage here, and that was bullitt.
erm, as we know, bullitt was a member of the delegation and an intimate of, of wilson, so the book is er co- authored, so in a sense we should know as we're paying for, for all of it, because er, obviously, he relied on bullitt to give him all this biographical information, and er, consequently what you see freud doing in this in this book is, is er trawling through, as it were, the things that bullitt told him, that, that bullitt had found out, to erm, draw a kind of psy psychoanalytic portrait of woodrow wilson, that erm, tried to explain his problem, why did he not deliver the goods as it were .
and the if you put the character of woodrow wilson aside, the, the central theme which comes out of this book, which is i think why it's important, worth reading certainly the introduction is worth reading.
there is a three or four page brief introduction er, to the book, which is presumably by freud himself, because it's about psychoanalysis, and i don't think bullitt could have written it.
erm, what's worth reading about that, and it comes out strongly in the introduction, is that this is a kind of case stu study of a particular kind of person.
er, er, a man who grows up under the shadow of his father, as it were.
so it's quite an interesting, whatever you think about woodrow wilson in the first world war is quite a interesting book, in drawing a character study of the kind of person who freud must have seen many times in his practice.
the man who grows up idealizing his father, and whose relationship with his father is a largely passive one.
so he tends to regard his father as a kind of ideal he can never equal, and tends if anything to identify with er, with his own mother, and play a kind of passive role to his, to his father.
and this is how freud explains wilson's inability to stand up to the other men, like woodrow, like cle clements or lloyd george, who were rather aggressive, and er, were, were kind of pushing all the time, what they could out of the, out of the peace settlement, and what, er the book shows, is that woodrow wilson would have confrontations with them and say a lot of fine words, and then the next day, he would, he would give it all away, as it were, he would, he would be ill or he'll backtrack, or when the actual agreements came to be signed, he, he wouldn't do what he said he would, er,wh what he did.
so freud has to explain this weakness of wilson, in the face of erm, these much more dominant aggressive men he was up against in these very hard er hitting negotiations, about what to do about the world after, after world war one.
so, freud's view is that he was, this passive erm nature of, of, of, retiring er nature of, of woodrow wilson, which explains his inte intellectuality as says, erm, wilson was a very intellectual man.
he had a great fondness for speeches and oratory.
apparently, in his childhood, he'd give speeches to an empty barn, er, had, would stand in the, in the family barn, erm, giving lectures to the hay, you know, and he, he, he loved this, and he, he was, he had a great erm sense of grandiloquent language and, freud and bullitt's interpretation is that, woodrow wilson, in a sense, was a typical politician.
very good at words, not so good at, at, at actions and actually delivering the goods as it were 
so, why, why do you ?
well, er i asked this, because erm, when i was having my house it came up, and i and i pointed out to her th the astonishing anomaly, i said, look erm, everybody knows about manuscript, ernest and his biography of freud mentions it and says he read it and reports rather well of it, actually, was really quite impressed with it.
i said knew about it, erm, you must have known about it, erm, that standard edition of the complete psychological works of freud, that's its title, and you're one of the editors, one of the editors, i said, there's no evidence that you ever intended to include this book in it, even though, you know, i understand that it couldn't be published as long as woodrow wilson's family was still alive, but erm, you know, why wasn't it published in the standard edition?
and said i don't know.
now, she could have been lying.
i don't think she would have told me a, a lie.
when i asked her things like that, she didn't want to tell me on other occasions, she said i know that i can't tell you.
er, she was an honest person.
i think that's what she would have said.
if, if, if that had been the case, she'd say, oh, i do know, but i'm afraid i can't tell you.
when she said, i don't know, i think she was telling me the truth, she didn't know.
erm, the fact is, she didn't play a dominant part in the standard tradition, although she was one of the editors, of course.
er, she was mainly one of the editors because she was erm, her father's, you know she even inherited her father's estate.
so, so that was in her share of the management .
i don't think she'd taken erm prominent role in the day to day planning of the standard edition, this was done by erm, calculable spreadsheet.
so erm, i think when she said she didn't know, er, she was telling the truth, and when asked her if she could explain to me, the very point that just asked me, again she said she, she couldn't explain, she had, she she'd agreed, agreed it was a paradox, that she didn't really know erm, why the book had never been published, or until nineteen sixty seven erm note, note that it, that it had been taken.
erm, my only view is that, er, the reason is that, by the time it saw the light of day, because remember, the manuscript was in the, the manuscript was physically in the possession of the bullitt family not the freud family.
erm, when the bullitt family sought it to published it, it was published, but by that time, the kind of changes that i talked about at the beginning of my lectures, had already occurred in psychoanalysis.
psychoanalysis had evolved into a highly therapeutic undertaking, which was very very and institutionalized for therapy, and the black books had already been blackened, as it were.
people were already tending to ignore these very works we're looking at,theomonoism we'll be looking at next week, gonna tell us about that, aren't you .
yes.
another very black book, er, civilization discon these kind of books were, er, generally er, at, at er best ignored, at worst disparaged, by the psychoanalytic establishment.
so when this book on, on woodrow wilson appeared, i mean, it gets even blacker.
er, particularly since it was only half right, or you couldn't exactly tell which half, not very clearly, so if it's half by freud, and er, it was a book erm, on erm, a controversial figure arguing over very controversial pieces, and i think the psychoanalytic study didn't want to have anything to do with it, and er, er, one of the reviews of the psychoanalytic journal that said that this is the kind of book that gets psychoanalysis a bad name.
and er, on the other side, the, the people interested in it in the social sciences, erm, didn't particularly like it, because, at that time, they were heavily dominated by er, marxist and people on the left.
i mean, i myself, for instance, after i'd published my first book on psychoanalysis in nineteen eighty was summoned to the house of commons by and given a dinner, in the house of commons restaurant, which isn't very good actually, least it wasn't then, and effectively i was told by this great man was, noticed, had a very high opinion of his own ego, that erm, you know the left was in charge of psychoanalysis in this country, and had better conform or shut up.
my views were not politically correct.
and would i please stop publishing on psychoanalysis and leave it to my elders and betters.
like .
so i er, i politely told him what he could do with that, well, i was eating his dinner and i couldn't be too rude to him, but erm, you know, when er when, when confronted, i don't give ground over that kind of thing.
i said, you know, i'd every right to resume my own research, erm, if the labour party thought it owned psychoanalysis, i'm afraid i have, have to differ.
so we, we parted on that note.
but erm, the people like and the left, didn't like the book either, because it didn't tell their particular interpretation, as kind of left marxist er, interpretation as someone has it, was so popular at the time.
and so the book was just kind of, ignored i think, and left standing, and now it's out of print, and we've discovered this week, it's not even in the university library.
erm, it must have vanished, there was a copy there.
er, so it's, it, it's one of these strangely anomalous works, it, it's, it has spawned, i must admit, some very unfortunate literature, and i think 's own book is the worst example, but it's not the only one.
there's a whole area of psycho-history.
has anybody read about psycho-history?
there's a whole school of psycho- history mainly in the united states, not many followers here, and er, i must admit, i, i used to have er a class on psycho-history on this course, and i dropped it, and the reason was, i think students didn't find it very satisfactory, and the literature was of such poor quality.
it really was er of the sort, you know, if cleopatra's nose had been half an inch longer, history would have all been different, you know, that, that kind of trivia.
erm i think you can see that the problem with this kind of biographical approach to history is it can degenerate into trivia.
of the kind that himself wrote of .
which i think is, er, is one of the worst examples of trivial.
because, because clearly, you can see that in the social sciences, there is a big problem.
if you think that individual people have a big role in history, like and woodrow wilson, i doubt if he did, i mean everybody would admit that these were important figures obviously, but the question is, how important were they, compared with social, political and economic factors, possibly beyond their control?
i mean this is the big issue, isn't it?
i thought, like, i mean, isn't the basic idea of psychoanalysis is that, you know that, that these people are repressing something and that's studying, and the question is how well, can you arrive at what they were repressing, by just sort of secondhand, you know, i mean 
mm.
wouldn't you, i mean, not as so best way to figure out what they were repressing, but just, i mean wouldn't you need to really have the whole life in front of you
you would.
to figure out?
i mean, we urgently certainly we can psychoanalyse a group, you know, the group psy the group psychology, because we all understand how groups act, and we can say, oh, yes groups act like that, you do act like that, that makes sense and that can prove it, you know.
but with, with a man, i mean, you really need to have every single incident in his life, to, to really know what
that is absolutely true.
yes, this is another big problem i think you put that very well, that people forget, of course, that in clinical psychoan analysis the analyst has a vast amount of data, because the patient is going five times a week, or in freud's case, six times a week, for fifty minutes every day, six days a week, nine months of the year, often for several years and er, the, the sheer amount of data that the analyst gets, is absolutely immense.
i mean, i can well recall in my own analysis with , of course, for the first six months she said nothing, and i used to get very frustrated, and say, look, what do you think of this?
what's your interpretation, she would say, oh, we don't know enough yet.
she said i'm not sure.
we'll have to wait and see.
and for about six months, i didn't get anything.
when interpretations were offered to me, she said so and so, and i said, why, and then she was ready.
she said there was this female, that the other thing, and there was a whole long list of things that pointed to this interpretation, and it was all part of a, as you say a great mass of data, that erm, is, is quite mind-bogglingly large, if you actually erm, see it in words.
erm, it's very difficult, of course, to er, well it's impossible actually, to turn that into er written accounts.
because of course if you were to tape record analytic sessions, it would change that nature of the, of the analysis.
and er, one of the big scientific problems with psychoanalysis is that privacy and confidentiality are prominent, as obviously in other areas of science, you can er, the demonstration has to be in public, as it were .
i mean, other people can do the experiment or repeat it.
trouble with an individual psychoanalysis, it can never be.
so one of the big problems with an historical figure, is that erm, you don't even have that much data to go on, the data you have is gonna inevitably be, be selective and limited.
again i think if freud and bullitt were here today, they'd say, well look we did, in fact, have quite a lot of data, because i, bullitt knew wilson intimately for several years and worked with him, and er, freud had rarely the stuff in erm, in all papers of woodrow wilson in the library of congress or wherever they were, and he had a great deal of data.
but even so, 's point is a good one, that there isn't, there's seldom if ever enough this is a small problem in psychoanalysis, i myself hope to put right to some extent, and some of you may live long enough to see this happen, i hope you will.
er, that's why i'll tell you all, i even tell young people.
there's no point in telling old people, because they'd be dead.
but erm, there are one or two interesting exceptions to this, and one exception is myself, because er, i started analyzing myself through maybe to nineteen sixty nine, and with one or two small exceptions, like when i was being analyzed by and i didn't like it, with any doubt, my entire analysis was being written down.
erm, i guess now in fact, erm er, last few years is all er, is all er entered in data on computer.
and it's my intention to keep up this analysis, er, for as long as it takes, probably to the end of my life.
and that er, on the centenary of my birth, which will fall in two thousand and forty six, my heirs and executors will be free to er, release it to the world, on condition, however, that it's published complete and unexpurgated and unedited.
in other words, if you're gonna have personal , you're gonna, it, you can't allow somebody to edit us out, as it were.
and er, if and when it's published, there will be millions of words, i mean there are now, and i don't how large it is now, it's impossible to tell how large, erm, but just a couple of years, for example, amounts to over a quarter of a million words, so if you run that back to nineteen sixty nine, you see it is going to be one of the largest books ever written.
and it maybe, if it's ever published, while we're still here in two thousand and forty six, and my executors do as i hope they will, erm, you know, it will be a book alongside samuel pepys, and casanova and saint augustine, it's that length.
my guess it's as least long as samuel pepys' diary, or will be.
and i hope that, er, you know, this, all this data will be published, and people will be able to see just what the complete data is.
and if that's the case, then in the middle of the next century, more will be known about me, than has ever been known about any other human being.
because i have faithfully stuck to the fundamental rule of psychoanalysis.
i have not held back anything.
it's all true and it's all right.
of course, my own reputation will be the first victim of this.
i will be universally despised.
but that's okay, i mean i'm not particularly, i'm not so impressed with the human race that i, i, i think much of their opinion of me anyway.
but erm, the great pity of course is, that freud didn't do this.
it's, i mean, freud we know, did do a certain analysis.
my guess is, he must have written an account.
it's a great pity he didn't preserve any detail, and he looked, er, like all his other papers had been left in the library of congress until two thousand and twenty five, and then they will all become public.
erm, that would have been er, really worth knowing .
but as i've said, it will, it will be preserved in my case.
erm, it's my great contribution to science, unfortunately i shall be long dead, and many of yo some of you may, i don't know how many of you will still be alive in two thousand and forty six, but if you are, you may see this day.
i won't of course.
but it's a, it's a problem that, that you've put your finger on, and this is why i personally think that a lot of this literature is of such a poor quality.
and certainly this stuff, i mean, when a person's still alive, how can you possibly know enough?
you see, woodrow wilson was dead, bullitt had access to a lot of private material that er, perhaps there's still,i don't know whether it's ever been published.
and of course, bullitt had directly observed the man and interacted with him during the critical time at, at the versailles conference.
and the whole book is really about er the versailles conference in a way, isn't it, and about why he behaved the way he did at the time.
so there's a kind of critical period here, that we have got a lot of information about.
and in a sense, the book is very one dimensional in that it follows just this one aspect of woodrow wilson's character, the critical one.
now of course, in a, in a complete psychoanalysis, if woodrow wilson had been going for analysis, then all kinds of other aspects of his life and personality would have opened up.
and you wouldn't get this concentration on one, this one kind of character defect, which er, admittedly, is a, is a problem with the book and, and can make it look as if it is a kind of character assassination.
character assassination of wilson?
erm, yes, perhaps.
mm.
yes, but freud does er justify this er meaning, that this is why to form a psychological 
that's 
because of his limitations 
i was gonna further say that erm, you know, beside lack of information itself,information of repression, information into someone's life i mean, repression necessarily i mean the, the thing that someone does in their lifetime might necessarily strange and distracted, and the purpose of the thing 
well, yes, that, that's true but i think the, er, by the nineteen twenties, when freud was writing this book, was it nineteen twenty nine, twenty eight, twenty nine,
er, well,certainly, yes.
they started it, yes.
right, so they,
sorry, the early nineteen thirties, when they started it.
by that time, freud certainly had moved on a bit, from the earlier, perhaps rather narrow concentration on the repression and he was moving into the second er era of psycho psychoanalysis when there was an emphasis more on the total personality on the ego and its mechanisms of defence, to quote a title of a famous book by , and i think this is more the kind of thing that freud is doing in this book, where you, you see not just the repressions in the unconscious, but the whole personality, and you understand it, in terms of its various defensive erm, structures, and the way which it carried out its repression.
in other words, you concentrate not just on what's repressed in id, but on the structure of the ego as well, and the superego, and the course of nature part of it comes out in the book as told us that woodrow wilson had a tremendous superego in the form of his identification with his father, who he further identified with god, i mean, if i come over very critical indeed, and therefore, his own ego was identified with jesus christ.
and this, for example, i mean, whether we believe this or not, this freud says, or thinks, explains why wilson could come to europe as a saviour, the saviour of mankind, but then failed to deliver the goods, because of the passive nature of his identification, you know, jesus got crucified.
which was a pretty passive thing to do, in some ways, erm, and similarly, you could say woodrow wilson ended up crucified by the, by the allies.
a certain fourteen points for cruci everybody must have that .
and, erm, so this, it was, in a sense it was not so much as what was repressed in his ears, the structure of his ego that led to this unfortunate consequence.
does that answer your 
so it's part of this larger view of psychoanalysis that was emerging in the thirties.
where you could have more of a character study, rather than just the kind of erm, capping the unconscious, as it were 
since like what you say, psychoanalysis was now, i mean, is it mostly centred on the ego?
i mean, one , since you can't go if you don't
mm.
would you say that, you know, in modern psychoanalysis presumably just not the, like the structure of the ego, and then they know 
wh what, well,i, i wouldn't say just looking similar, i would say additionally looking, but, but in the, in the early days the erm, and i'll be saying something about this in the, in the lectures,bu but just briefly, that you could you could say there were phases in psychoanalysis, the early days, before both of us were born you were here, the, the aim when the method was , the aim was to release the unconscious, bring it to the surface, and that was regarded as more or less enough.
analyses in those days were short by modern standards.
there's an example in my book, with one that only lasted six weeks, for example, which is astonishing by modern standards.
after world war one, and especially by the nineteen thirties, the, the purview of psychoanalysis, as it were, had, had enlarged to include the ego, as we saw, and so, so what happened then was, the structure of the ego was explored and not just the repressions.
in other words, it was the agencies that carried out the repressions that were analyzed, as well as the repressions themselves.
this is a much more like a, a kind of total dissection of the personality.
it means that psychoanalysis takes a lot longer, because you are looking at defences and ego as well as at, at the .
you get a much more complete picture.
analogy i used in my book, was actually suggested to me by , although this is a ana a kind of metaphor that, that her father was very fond of.
erm, was with archaeology.
but in the nineteenth century, archaeology was a kind of treasure-troving erm, explorers, a kind of raid on, on the very past, to discover the treasure.
that's what psychoanalysis was like in its first days.
we raided the unconscious, as it were, to, to liberate the repressed and, and, and understand what was in that.
modern archaeology is much more scientific and it's, it tends to excavate entire layers, layer, by layer and every little thing is relevant, you know, they, the little pot shard, erm, even bits of excrement, apparently are very interesting to archaeologists, because they're sure people were eating, and things like this, er, you know, remnants of fire was charcoal, everything.
all of this is, is just good as well as bits of gold and er and, and you know metal objects, that have always traditionally been interesting to archaeologists.
and that's rather like modern analysis, everything is interesting.
it's not just what is repressed, it's the structures of the ego that bring about these repressions, the identifications and so on.
so it's a more complete er picture, of, of, of the personality, and of course it lends itself to this kind of historical portraiture .
because as says, er, the unconscious is, as a sense, is always hidden, so how do you possibly find out about the unconscious of historical figures that are dead and gone?
well, the answer is with very very great difficulty.
but if you were looking at their egos as well, er their whole personality had its defence disrupted, then of course , you may be able to see a bit more, because you are now looking at areas which are co both conscious and manifest themselves in all kinds of different ways.
does that answer your, your point?
yeah, i suppose i was thinking, i, i always get mixed up when you say psychoanalysis
mm.
i just want to you know modern days was just confusing me and er, all this sort of thing.
whereas i think it easy, you know sometimes i get confused about what's what 
right.
so, when, when i talk about psychoanalysis in this course, i mean mainly freudian classical, because it's freud's writings we're looking at.
admittedly, another aspect of the whole thing, as you rightly say, is that there's been a burgeoning and a lot of different schools, and of course different schools give emphasis to different, different kinds of things.
and that's a further complicating factor, of course.
well, it's just coming up to eleven o'clock, who haven't we heard from, er, right, you've been very very quiet there.
there.
have you got anything, any comments you want to say about this?
i mean, i didn't read the book.
no.
no.
er, i must admit i point freud makes,slightly arrogant erm, i mean it, he's, he's, he's a 
yeah.
mm.
his father's you know there's peace conference in nineteen eighteen 
yeah.
did you think that, that, that, that their approach was arrogant and their, the, the affect was trivializing?
well, not really, no.
that weren't the impression that i got.
the actual book, arise that book anyhow, mm.
but it's certainly er, certainly a valid question.
yeah.
woodrow wilson 
well, that's what freud 
also subject on.
but i know that such a talented writer.
you know, i mean, i was convinced that there was no such thing as religion after i'd read the book i mean, anything i read about, i immediately say, oh yes, of course that's true, you know.
so.
well, next week, will be telling us about another one of these very controversial books, won't you?
yes.
in which we shall be looking at, er another famous figure, but, but, er an even more remote and one, some people might say,mytho mythological one, namely moses.
so having done woodrow wilson this week, we will do moses, next week.
we'll look forward to that.
is anybody jewish, by the way?
right.
well, one year, i must admit, somebody in the class stormed out.
the person started to read their paper on moses, and i thought she was doing a good job of it, this guy suddenly got up and said, i'm jewish, i'm not listening to any more of this, and stormed out.
oh, i don't see that.
erm, what is the most,
right.
er, that is in,that is in er, hampstead,.
if you wanna get there 
i'm just 
the easiest way to do it, is to take the underground to finchley road station 
finchley road station.
mhm.
and when you come out of finchley road station, it's in a place called .
i may be able to give you a thing about it actually, if i've still got one.
you can visit it, it's open it's best to phone up and find out when they're open, because they're not open every day.
and they interesting?
well, there's i mean it's interesting, erm, it's freud's you know, collection of, of classical and antique .
they, they give the impression that the house is the way it was when he lived there, but it's not quite true, actually, it was earlier on.
erm, it's, it's certainly a lot smarter than could remember when lived there.
erm, and now let's see i used to have a file on this, but i might have passed it or given all the stuff away 
is it?
yeah, it probably is.
yes, that's, that's the kind of place you would find it.
erm, that is the kind of place you would 
alright.
well, if you suddenly find it, you know 
er, don't despair, i haven't finished yet, erm ah, here we are, freud i knew i had it, i knew i had it.
they used to write to me quite regularly here you are.
great.
thank you.
as i said, check the opening hours, they've probably changed.
okay.
that tells you where it is, and the phone numbers.
great.
thank you.
erm,
yes 
to make an appointment.
yeah, the reason is, we have to discuss your erm, your reports and so on.
erm, what were we going to do today?
a lot of 
right.
okay.
well, let's make an appointment, then.
when would be convenient?
well, i finish at, about, about twelve on tuesdays, and work on wednesday.
right.
won't be here next wednesday?
what about next tuesday?
could you, what's on at twelve,twelve thirty.
i'm showing a film at one.
i mean, you are in in the afternoon on tuesday?
i might, yes.
yeah, the trouble with that, i'll have to make you wait till four thirty, is that too long?
erm, well, what about thursday?
thursday, yes, no no, next thursday's easier.
what about next thursday, what time could you ?
erm, between 
you've got a lecture?
erm, i mean one and two.
between one and two?
or after three.
or after three.
erm, yeah, let's make it at three.
can we make it at three next thursday, after the lecture?
right.
so after next thursday's lecture, twenty eighth, at three o'clock.
right,
okay.
yeah.
see you then,.
thanks very much.
bye.
okay,, come on, come and sit down.
well, i was erm, i just heard, you wanted me to come in, erm, i'm doing a, a paper on monday.
oh, that's right.
that's right.
but erm
and you were going to 
you wanted me er, to give you a run through of it.
well, well, i su i suggested that this will be helpful, which it will be, will it?
erm, well the thing is that i still erm, in the process of doing research and reading and gathering a
alright.
i mean, we did reports, we did those, yeah 
lot of ideas about getting an idea about did you, am i in the class just now?
i went to erm, the registration
yeah.
it says i haven't been put on the list.
am i on it ?
er, well, they hadn't notified me, but they probably, you told them anyway, did you?
yeah,
because that's the important thing.
erm, yeah the important thing is that they know.
i mean, i know, i've, i've written it down myself.
erm
okay, you say you're still 
right, yeah
you're still doing this 
i didn't think the question that erm, the question culture was the same as our culture.
right.
and erm,read about the book so far, and i'm going through erm,
okay.
why?
well, there's no need now, i mean, i only suggested this erm, to help you, er, and i wouldn't want to make you write it out er, just for the sake of writing it out.
it don't think it's a good use of your time.
and i mean, if you think that just presenting it in the, in the class is er enough 
send it down to use yourself, but to be able to carry that through and to, to go on to, to be sincere, and i respect that it's important to be sincere.
if you, you know, talk about people moral values and to be able to do that, and just majority of anything you need to you need to have a that allows you to do that without 
yes, yeah.
yes, it's very important to remember that both in, from this direct point of view and from freud's findings, you shouldn't just assume that it was a watertight compartment between two areas, as it were.
one conscious and un it's not like that.
i mean, in fact, what, what er, what freud found, he says is sometimes, you get erm, this is in fact a kind of continuing from conscious and unconscious, and there's a big gradation in between, and very often erm, things are erm, unconscious, not in the sense that they're totally lost, and you are unaware of them, but for example , they're, they're isolated.
they, they, they exist erm,princ a very common finding in psychoanalysis is that things will, will, will exist as word representations, with no feeling representation, or they won't be connected to, to er they'd be completely isolated.
you know, a very good example of this, that always sticks in my mind,telling me erm, that once she was analyzing a woman and er, a lot of the analysis was concerned with erm, conflicts, erm, relating to masturbation in childhood, and constantly felt that this was what the analysis seemed to have done , because the woman consistently denied this had ever happened.
absolutely denied, she'd ever done that.
then one day, said she described something she often used to do in childhood, habitually did.
and she had a special name for it, i can't remember what is was now, but it was an innocuous word, like erm erm, kneading, or something like that, something you do with your fingers.
erm, and said, okay, that's what you called it in childhood, you called, say kneading, if that's what it was.
she said, now, supposing you had to look up what you just described, you know, in a dictionary, and find a word that everybody would associate with it.
what word would you find?
and she said, the woman thought for a minute, and suddenly she gasped when said that's masturbation, isn't it?
and said, yes.
and she said, but i've always known i did that.
and, you see, she'd known it, but it had been entered under another word, in her mind.
as she didn't connect it with what everyone else calls masturbation.
you know, er, that's a horrible thing that other people do.
she had her own term for it, and as long as it was purely associated with that term, she never connected it.
and that's quite a typical finding.
that things remain unconscious, not because you never knew about them, but because they're never brought into the relevant connections with other things that make you conscious of the thing in the sense of seeing what's in it for mrs you know,reports.
so we're not saying it's a question of conscious unconscious, or rigid demarcation where we are actually talking about subtle gradations of consciousness, from complete self conscious awareness at one end, to total loss of all memory of the thing at, at, at the other.
and everything in the between, and most stuff is in between, as a matter of fact.
so i think you're right, it's a very very important, erm, and, and often in life, you can find people switch from one to the other with astonishing speeds.
i mean, some people have kind of butterfly minds, with butterfly behaviour, and they switch from being one type of person or another type of person almost minute by minute.
you just can't keep up with them.
i mean what does this, you know, what is, is this?
i mean, do to have this astonishing capacity of switch all the time.
you just don't know, know where you are with them.
well, that was interesting, it was interesting discussion, er, thanks to an excellent paper, we're, we're, we're delighted, and that was first rate.
who did i say was next week?
right.
we look forward to hearing from you next week,.
sorry i've got to throw you out on time, but i've got another appointment at four.
er,, did you see him about that?
erm, yes i did the only problem
yeah.
you don't have a 
ah, well, keep our fingers crossed.
tell me if there's anything i can do.
okay.
yeah.
well, what did you think of the film,?
had you seen it before?
i hated it.
it is a bit, is er is er is a bit odd.
i suppose you liked it?
well, i must say i liked it, er, i mean, i showed it because er suggested it.
i thought it filled in the, the kind of, some of the biographical kind of things we don't have time to do in the course.
was interesting.
i mean, the general, i mean 
yeah yeah.
you think i should show it in the future years?
perhaps not.
er, it depends 
yeah, yeah.
fine.
the sexual aperitif.
yeah, it did.
er.
yeah, yeah, have a look, hold on.
thanks for the book.
alright.
oh, you sure you can spare it?
yeah, i've no more lectures until your one on thursday.
well, can i give it to you back on thursday?
yeah, that's wonderful.
you sure you won't need it till then?
i'll keep it under lock and key, many thanks.
ah, right, so how are you?
oh, i'm fine, thank you.
put that save.
make sure i don't lose that.
okay.
right, so, and you're going to the, what's the seminar at five is it or
that's right,oh, yes, i received this letter.
yeah.
i don't know if you've heard about it?
no.
erm, well, i was 
yeah.
and i mean, i considered myself to have been like, er, frequent, or erm, whatever.
so er, on the last seminar, they all talked about sending out letters to all the students who weren't there the attendance was very low, and i received one, but
right.
enough.
and er, i was also asked why i had offered to and i'd already spoken to the students' secretary about it.
yeah.
so i wrote back to and
mm.
yeah.
i'm not giving the paper for health reasons.
i have been 
right.
i will, i will mention, i didn't know they were sending out such a letter, otherwise i would have er, told them in advance.
but i will 
i'm on the street for the moment 
i, absolutely, i'll, i'll speak to everyone, don't worry.
i mean, don't worry 
so are you, are you be going to seminar?
yes.
yeah.
yeah,i have to .
thing is i, i just i can't work .
no.
i go sick
no.
somehow i haven't been able to work
no, okay.
because i'm really worried
mm.
when i think about it i think i just can't work, it's like, i've lost interest whenever i find some i feel i'm able to keep up
mm
which is something i 
mm.
i mean want to i have considered going back to er, training and cancel this
right, i see, what dropping this altogether?
er, no, i'd like to come in.
mm.
i mean i don't particularly like 
mm.
yeah.
and perhaps after that come back to 
right.
i really 
well, the, i mean the, the thing about the end fill is 
four legs good!
two legs bad!
unless you're a chicken, or to put it boldly, animals have rights too!
but exactly what rights do they have?
and does supporting animal rights justify violence?
the animal rights lobby is a forceful one by various means, some legal, some not, some specific, some violent.
campaigners seek to convince the unconverted that animals deserve a better deal!
which animals?
and what's the better deal?
let's find out.
and let's start with a basic question, here in this nation of animal lovers, do you think animals deserve a better deal?
some animals?
all animals?
any animals?
do they deserve a better deal?
button one for yes, and button two for no.
this is a descriptive vote because this hundred er women are not a representative cross section of the whole of scotland they're invited to come from various places and ninety six of them think that animals deserve a better deal.
when you said yes to that which animals did you mean?
and what were you talking about?
yes?
i think, a lot of people see the stray dogs problem as a big problem, certainly if people have decided to partake of pets, they have a responsibility to look after them and not throw them out on the streets.
okay so 
and i think problems like that are due to human irresponsibility!
so those animals do have a raw deal!
okay, that's one area.
who else said yes, and why?
up, yes?
i think animals that are used for human entertainment definitely deserve a better deal, for example, large wi wild animals that are used in circuses, we haven't got the right, as people, to say that they're here for our entertainment.
what would that better deal be in that case?
the better deal would be, not being transported up and down the country, and not being made to perform tricks that are un unnatural to their own behaviour patterns.
aha.
aha.
any other views?
yes?
i think that er concern should also spread to animals that are hunted pleasure as well, i.e. the stags, deer, foxes, hares, i mean, there's there's quite a considerable list that's all done for entertainment.
mhm.
now the better deal there presumably would involve
not chasing them at all!
not hunting them at all?
no!
i mean 
okay.
let them live their lives in peace without the harassment of chasing them with dogs and supporters and what have you!
okay.
any others that, yes?
i don't think animals should be ta , used to be tested for cosmetics
mhm.
perfumes or detergents
mhm.
different things like that.
what about medical research?
well, there again, yes, with reservations because if it comes to the fact that if it's going to save human lives, yes.
yes, and you get all the animals who are experimented on and you sa there's not a week that comes out and you don't an a report saying, oh well this this, this causes cancer in rats or and you, imagine the amount, the huge amounts of the sub , whatever substance it is that had been given to rats to cause the cancer, and there's no knowing that the amount that's gonna be given to rats causing cancer, will give cancer to humans!
i mean,i it's just absolutely ridiculous!
i'm a trustee for the beauty without cruelty charity
aha.
and we would like to see an end to all experiments on animals, for cosmetics, toiletry, household product purposes.
hasn't that campaign been going for
oh many, many years!
a long time?
yes!
and we're making progress now.
how?
there are already many alternatives to the research carried out on animals which has been going on for a long time.
erm for example, you can grow human skin in a, in a cell culture and use that as a, as a testing er, medium 
mhm.
instead of a live animal.
we can it can use erm a si similar substance for eye tests erm, to test to replace the jeyes eye test
mhm.
which again has been used for a long time on animals.
these tests are very misleading.
they don't protect bu su er, er the public, they protect the people who are actually manufacturing the products.
now do you think that the campaign th the th , the campaigns against the use in cosmetic testing had anything to do with the changes that were brought in, or do you think advances and responsible er science would have, would have made those changes anyway?
i think inevitably,th the changes would have come because the, the alternatives are better.
yep.
they are less misleading.
ah, but i think the campaign, the public campaign and the pressure that's been put on companies have definitely made quite a, quite a difference.
yes?
while i agree that there is absolutely no justification for testing for cosmetic purposes at all!
absolutely 
yes.
none!
i think we would have advanced to the stage we are at had we not used animals in the earlier stages for medical research.
we're advancing all the time and i think there may came a time we won't use animals at all for medical research, but at, up till now we needed to use animals for medical research.
i think you've got to be realistic about this whole issue, that er, obviously seeing the poor furry little bunny suffering for cosmetics!
mhm.
yes!
i agree, that is wrong!
but, if a test on a chimpanzee would save my child's life i'm afraid i'd go for the test on the chimpanzee.
okay.
yes?
erm i i think that one of the erm, drawbacks in using animals for any kind of testing is that it sort of precludes in some way using alternatives.
and i think that, you know people who, they may be trained when they're a studying to 
mhm.
use animals, and then go onto to work using animals, and erm you know, if maybe alternative techniques were introduced at an earlier stage, maybe in their training, they'd be more likely to them on board.
but, it's almost like it's the established pattern to use animals to test 
mhm.
all sorts of things, and it's gonna take quite a big shifty to get out of that.
mhm.
yes?
i agree with what that lady's just said.
what i find horrible is that there are so many organisations or or places all over great britain, they're all doing the same sort of tests!
can't we collate our knowledge so that not so many tests are having to be done on all these animals?
yes?
yes.
erm, being with the s s p c a, i have seen a lot of very sad pictures of animals, but one of the saddest photographs i saw, quite recently was two monkeys, well they're primates, we are
yep.
part of that family too, and they were in a lab awaiting experimentation and they were in cages side by side and they'd stretched their arms out and were holding hands, almost as though, to give each other comfort.
mhm.
monkeys feel pain.
they feel happiness, sadness and they also have a sense of humour.
under the nineteen eighty six act
mm.
they have stated that all use of animals must be justified and it very carefully policed by the home office, as well as locally.
i mean, it's it's vets etcetera 
yeah.
yep.
are always present in research establishments to ensure the well being of the animals, and very often there is actually no pain involved in the research.
how, how do you know that?
well i was told by somebody who's involved in animal 
right.
research!
right.
but er, frequently the animals are used for the research and there's no pain involved at that time and they are killed humanly before the research actually takes place.
but do we find it acceptable that animals should be used, however painless the event.
well i would rather use an animal any time that my own child!
up there.
er, switzerland is one country that has banned the use of animals for research, and i think we ought to be going along these lines that, if animals have rights we ought not to be using them for experimentation.
mhm.
and if we were to ban the the process,th erm we would devise other means for research, would, we would find alternatives.
there.
th there'll, there'll quickly move it somewhere where we can do it.
it's quite 
alright, they move it out of switzerland but if we can't have it here we'll have it in pakistan or somewhere where they want the money!
so it won't make any difference in that 
yes?
respect.
i do not think that research has gone as fast as it should!
mhm.
and it's going to be a long time before it's going to be possible, so therefore we still have to use animals, i see no way round it.
mhm.
and i know that they're using cultures and things but i still think that we are a long way from not using animals.
up there.
erm can i, can i move this conversation on to the 
yes.
th th the, the veterinary side?
mhm.
erm, we've we've covered the fact that animal models don't always reflect the human situation, but if we're going to understand control and eradicate disease in animals, this sort of work must go on.
could i go back to something the lady here 
yes.
said about the animal procedures act of nineteen eighty six, erm, i know she's been told about the animals are killed painlessly and that they suffer very little pain, where there's any pain at all, but in fact this act erm which is governed by a committee only erm issues guidelines as to what might happen.
no matter how serious an infringement there might be of that act they are not subject to any sort of criminal offence.
sh shall we try and see what the er, what the general feeling on this is?
do you think that er the use of animals in research is ever justified?
er, button one for yes, and button two for no.
research there being either on behalf of animals themselves, or on behalf of er, of humans.
is research on er, the use of animals in research ever justified?
and this particular hundred are creeping in with their votes but have decided, seventy fo seventy seven of them say yes, all be it th th th , by far the majority, and twenty three say no.
could anyone say what the consequences would be if they weren't available for use in er in the development of human er medicines and treatment?
well i wouldn't be here because a horse was used for a toxin to provide the anti-toxin for diphtheria whe , in my days when i was younger there was no toxins as such, vaccination as such and so therefore the horses were used for research to provide the anti-toxins.
so do you think people who would like to ban the use of animals in research are in, are in cloud cuckoo land do you?
yes?
would any of you twenty three like to defend your position?
yes?
erm, i'm just not sure why any any person would think that they have more right to life than animals do.
i mean what what gives you more right to life than an animal does?
anyone wa 
just because we have, a so called civilized nation that we live in that destroys the world, that destroys animals that destroys the environment we're living in!
you know, where's our right to life come from?
i think you can far too sentimental about it!
erm humans are more important than animals, you you cannot gi equate an animal life with human life.
we are the intelligent order.
being intelligent, we hope we won't be cruel to animals, but you can't say that we are, animals are just as important as humans.
mhm.
wha , why do you think we are more intelligent than animals?
well, for a start 
you know , because we can have television 
we could 
studios?
no!
we can reason with each other, animals don't reason with 
but 
other.
we have conversations, animals don't have conversations!
we are, we are living in a world , we are living in a world where constantly there's violence, does that happen in the animal world!
yes of course it does!
of course it does!
of course it does!
to the same extent?
they're horrible!
animals are terribly cruel to each other!
n no well 
yes?
i can't accept that!
surely if intelligence is the answer, you know, what about mentally handicapped children?
they're, they're not intelligent, does that mean they're just the same as animals?
if intelligence is the criteria, then an awful lot of us in this room would be used as test animals!
mhm.
we have a choice if we want to be involved in research
mhm.
whereas animals don't!
they have no 
mhm.
choice, they have no say.
mhm.
there, yes?
how do you know that erm animals don't reason?
like, how do you know what goes on, like with, dolphins, with whales, with all sorts of species of animals, like we don't know, well we're so dense we can only see things like this!
we don't know what goes on there, we've got no right to interfere with their lives!
yes?
i think, i think we're overlooking one erm
mhm.
great power that the individual has, instead of being ing , indignant about erm, our views on animals in research, we could quite simply exercise our power, not to buy the products, to ask questions of our 
mm mm.
of our doctors what kind of drug it is?
what research goes behind it?
do to exercise our individual intelligence to examine the facts on no , on the basis of our own conscience, individually to make a decision, and we can all do that!
we can buy a different type of product.
and there are many
mhm.
companies now erm which quite obviously assert that fact, on the doorways of chemists for instance, they do not test on animals.
so you're saying the consumer pressure could could change things?
mhm.
it it it's every effective measure 
mm.
of stopping erm, a certain product it simply will go out of production.
i would disagree that er, humans aren't used in experiments because i think that we're all being used at various 
points in our lives, for experiments, medical or otherwise.
mhm.
and erm a , a lot of the medicines that are passed er have been passed to a certain degree and then th th the we become the the animal.
are you speaking as a, as an experienced guinea pig yourself?
well i'm a diabetic erm 
yes.
so to a certain extent th the human that was introduced in the last few 
mhm.
years has has is an experiment.
how do you feel about that?
i, don't mind being used as a guinea pig because i feel that it'll help people in the future.
up there.
i believe that we have been given the right to have dominion over animals.
the point i would like to put over is, i've listened to one or two erm, radio programmes, and television programmes about this and i personally would like to have more evidence of what actually happens to the animals.
i don't think us er er public people really realize what is going on and i think then they would maybe stand up and be 
mm.
and be counted, but i think we've tended to stand back and just say well we know it's going on but what is actually being done to these 
mhm.
animals?
yes?
yes, we that lady over said there were guidelines, there were people that go in and inspect, but there are not enough, it is a known fact, that there are not enough people to go and inspect all the establishments where animal erm, experimentations are taking place and, i love animals, and alright, yes,yo you can do ex , some experiments on animals but let's not be cruel!
that lady up there said that we have experiments, i'm sure, human experiments , you know, experiments, sorry, on human people
mm.
but, on human beings, but we're not put through the state that animals are!
we 
mm.
don't have great lumps made to grown on us, we don't go through she , severe pain.
and, which company was it that says, to do something about pain you first have to create it.
mm.
ah, i mean that's terrible!
i was responsible for researching into the, so called cruelty free products for beauty without cruelty, and it was a real can of worms!
i was 
yep!
i was sorry i got involved in it at one point!
erm cosmetic companies are very devious!
it's what they don't tell you that's important.
erm, there is a big problem at the moment with cosmetic labelling, for example, erm just exactly what does cruelty free mean?
what does against animal testing mean?
these are the kind of things that are actually on cosmetic products.
mm.
it could mean, erm, against animal testing but i go along with it anyway.
it could mean erm cruelty free, er erm who de defines in that case, what cruelty is?
er, not, not tested on animals might mean, by me by but by someone else!
and it all sells products!
and, beauty without cruelty has been involved recently in having er, trying to put forward an e c erm, directive on th er, the labelling of cosmetics, but it's very, very difficult!
and, mainly because of those kind of problems.
yeah.
yep.
what do you mean by erm, not tested on animals?
the finished product?
the ingredient?
ingredients are tested for other reasons too not necessarily just for the cosmetic and toiletry trade.
i think that one of the outstanding erm criticisms that i would make of the whole programme, in research with animals, is the fact that only two licences have been revoked i think you said 
mhm.
on now, i think it's a bit like factory inspectors, and i talk from experience on this, er th o i me , everything gets cleaned up before the inspectors 
mhm.
arrive!
if you report something you always get the same reply, nothing wrong when we went round!
mm.
i'd like to move with th er, i i think tha wi given wi , though we haven't got all that much time, can we move onto another area that was brought up at the beginning of the programme which was erm the use of animals in recreation and er lisa particularly mentioned hunting, now, she thinks hunting should be banned, do you?
do you think hunting animals should be banned?
various animals that hunted in this country, foxes, in some places deer, hares are coursed er in some places.
well well!
there's an interesting result!
seventy nine of you think yes, hunting should be banned.
for the minority, twenty one say, no.
would any of those twenty one feel brave enough to say why they said no?
yes?
well i i so , should er be unhappy to see the, the the red-coated huntsmen a an abolished scenario.
but, erm i think they could instead have an electric fox, if there's such a thing?
or, a drag and there's no need to interfere with the fox at all.
okay.
yes?
they say that hunting's for er er human pleasure, er, i mean personally i've only been to one hunt, and i don't see what all the the, the, the, the trouble's about because the huntsman is only a spectator, it's the hounds that are hunting the fox and it is to keep the foxes down.
what's better than , gassing, shooting, poisoning?
mm.
what's more humane?
so you think hunting's fair enough?
from my point of view, yeah.
yes?
beside you.
yes, i i would have to, i'd have to disagree with er, my colleague here.
erm, i, it's not the shooting is, most certainly, as long as it's with a a qualified marksman 
mm.
it's most 
mhm.
definitely less cruel than hunting because the animal is chased and er, what it's heart is doing while it's being chased and it's, really is the idea's quite horrendous to me!
and actually, hunting doesn't kill all that many foxes, a a hunt probably erm, kills one an, at a meet if they're lucky.
but hunting does maintain jobs, and countryside people often say.
would anyone like 
mm.
to talk to, to to that?
yes?
well coming from a rural community 
erm hunting and shooting and fishing are very important to the 
yeah.
economy of the community and to have suburbia creeping in and trying to dictate to what has been the foundation of the of their economy, for many, many years is almost ridiculous!
mhm.
down there.
i think the idea of taking a fox and having it ripped apart legitimized by our society is a bad message to pass onto our children!
when children nowadays are becoming more responsible to our society, and they see us as one world we have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our world, and that includes the animals in it.
the seventy nine of you who voted for banning hunting,a are you all townees, do you not understand th the fabric of er, of the country?
do you have an alternative to offer that would er, that would sustain that fabric?
yes?
i live in the country, i live in the heart of the country right next to a sheep farm, and there's no co , no message at all from the farmer that foxes are a pest it's a misnomer put about by the hunt.
fox hunting was started, two hundred, three hundred years ago by the aristocracy because there wasn't enough deer, because the fo the forests were getting obliterated by the same pi , the same people, it was started as an entertainment, it's an entertainment now!
and now the hunt are turning round and they're lying about what they're doing, they're saying it's pest control, they're saying, we do it, it's quick, it's a sharp nip in the back of the neck.
it's not!
the hunt encourages foxes into their land they actually build artificial earths, we saw one of saturday when we were out protesting, the ar , they encourage foxes onto the land so they can hunt them.
a hunt is no good without foxes.
they don't want foxes
alright.
to be depleted at any way, they encourage them!
so you actually go out and do something about 
yes.
your your your er your feelings?
wha what do you do as a protester?
we actually, i'm actually er, in the scottish action against blood sports
aha.
and we do many things, we write to mp's, we write to councils trying to get them banned off the land, and we've been very successful.
we've actually helped stop the oldest hunt in scotland, in li lithgo in stirlingshire, which ended last year.
we were very successful then and we've now progressed.
we go out every single saturday, weekdays if we can, and we try and stop the stop the fo , hounds killing the foxes
so
peacefully.
so so you're proud of having stopped the oldest hunt in, in scotland?
very!
right.
i'd like to disagree with that.
ah.
i'm an ex-master's wife from lithgo in stirlingshire hunt, and we had to stop because erm the country was disappearing underneath us.
we had a new 
mm.
town built in our country with two motorways, and the towns have all expanded to great extent and that was why we had to give up, it was nothing to do with our friends the saboteurs.
it was creeping suburbia then, it wasn't 
creeping suburbia.
so wha 
yes.
what do you do now with the, what do the old the old hunt's people do?
well we've, we just have to er, grin and bear it.
there is nowhere else to go for us.
yes.
i would like to ask the saboteurs how they can justify the fact that they ill-treat hounds and horses?
now i 
personally have had a horse actually had things thrown at it by saboteurs!
i feel this is cruelty to horses.
yes.
that's, that's just absolutely rubbish!
i mean we don't 
well you 
can't, you can't 
like er, you can't say that she might have something thrown at her horse cos maybe you weren't there and maybe 
generally speaking 
mm.
erm, i mean people who spend their entire saturday doing something that they, i mean, i don't enjoy going out every saturday!
i mean, i'd like to do the things that, my hobbies, but i go out there because i care and i see that i feel that it's necessary to, to actually stop these people tormenting an animal for fun and if i'm that concerned about animals, i'm not gonna stoop to to hurt a horse, or or the hounds!
i mean i ride myself, i have dogs myself, i mean, it's just another excuse from the hunting fraternity, turn it round, blame the cruelty on the saboteurs when really there wouldn't be any saboteurs if there weren't people to kill foxes purely for fun!
do you want to come back on that?
yes.
erm we ha , we have had horses and hounds and damaged but apart from that i would ask the speaker who i , what 
mm.
or who is the fox's predator?
after all, the mouse has a cat, so what is the fox's predator?
do you know much about fox ecology?
yes.
mm mm .
have you ever, ever looked into 
i'm willing, i'm willing to listen to you!
well the , i think these people who concern themselves very much about dictating the do's and don't of fox hunting, if they were to spend a little more time about looking into the research of, how foxes actually live.
three hundred thousand foxes are killed annually in this country, either through hunting, which only attributes to a small two point percent, shooting, gassing, snaring, all of which happen during the hunting season as well.
so i mean, these foxes are still widespread and abundant, they can sustain seventy percent losses, so what human intervention are you doing?
i mean ha how can you say that killing fifteen thousand foxes a year is helping to control foxes?
up there.
i hunt regularly
mhm.
because i breed racehorses, i also am a farmer so i wear two hats, but i've actually seen foxes sit down we move the hounds move in,si sit down and scratch in the middle of a field, and then they think ah!
right we're off!
but, in fact from a farmer's point of view they are a su a nuisance, we have a man who co , who supposedly raises pheasants, he traps them, he also trapped my dog and this is him ah, justified, his justification was there were too many foxes.
erm.
and so therefore, we don't particularly pretend that they are 
mm.
that hunting justifies the the end of killing foxes but it does preserve country life.
we're going to have to close, alas, because it's been very interesting, and er er er a very diverse, ninety six people think animals should have a better deal, seventy seven think that the use of animals in research is justified at ti , from time to time, and well over seventy 
except .
think that hunting should be banned.
and, my final question to you, just out of curiosity is, are you ve , a vegetarian?
button one for yes, button two for no.
i could of said do you eat animals, but i decided that would be insensitive, to those of you who 
are vegetarians.
so, in this, very animal loving assembly, i think er, you would agree er, only twenty one are vegetarians and seventy nine people love animals but they also enjoy chewing on them from time to time.
wo would er any of you animal eaters like to say something about that position?
yes?
yes, i would 
as, as an s s p c a representative.
and and also as a farmer, if i 
mhm.
might say, i'm a beef farmer, erm i enjoy my, my beef very much, my philosophy is that erm, if we're going to use animals we're going to eat the , their time here should be as humane, they should have as humane treatment as possible, and they should be free from fear, hunger and pain, and when the time comes for them to go they should know as little about it as possible.
yes, but they never do!
you might say that about the human animal really, mightn't you?
yes 
thank you all very much for a civilized and interesting discussion.
thank you for joining us.
goodbye.
what time do you get there what, what time did you get there?
.
.
no,.
you said this morning didn't ya?
travelling, between woking and guildford, or whatever.
er, and that, you, you'll at the town cooking dinner, watching television, talking to my friend, or just roughly what you're doing at that time that conversation took place, okay,at work,form, then make me a cup of tea, she was photo-copying,
mm.
that's what she was, she was doing .
there's an awful lot involved though.
, you're usually saying oh it's just, just general .
mm.
went shopping or whatever, as i say, it, it, it, a couple of days or whatever you feel, if you, if you, if you want to get into it you might find you want to do them all
mm.
but if you, in two days, that 
yeah 
would be grate, okay, and the same thing for next page, this is the day i started which, like maybe tomorrow or next day or when ever you start it wednesday, i started at ten o'clock in the morning, was i, i was in woking, what was i doing nothing just reading a, do whatever you have to put in your whatever you ,
yeah 
where you went for a walk, down, went to the shops
mm.
or whatever, just let them know roughly what you're doing, cos, all they get is a tape, it gives them an idea of what sort of things were happening at that time, any words they can't pick up if she's cooking, maybe that's something she was making or whatever, erm, in the please write the first names and details, why you know them, of all the people speaking on this side of the tape, in order in which they speak on the tape in the first, first instance, right, you know, so now carla, my husband, myself, lee and, you don't need to repeat them again after that
mm.
so if you don't, don't want, not worried too much about this, i mean, although we want you to do this, i mean, rather just get the conversation, in, even though you don't do this .
you want more than that .
the knob on the cooker's been turned.
put it in the dish.
does everybody finish their work experience then ?
yes, no not everyone, some i know one person who's name's adam, he finishes tuesday
why?
cos he .
why's that then?
it's just the way they've done it, the firm.
oh, the firm.
kim was saying , they do it for two weeks can't believe they would, the different school though, and then that other chap said that, that, erm 
oh steveo's under .
yeah but that other one said, oh look there's .
, oh yeah, mm,, he's a polo, he .
eastenders is on.
have bath, watch the telly.
what have you gotta do, write your assignment then?
geography and my diary.
what of the and every day?
yep.
how long's the diary got to be?
i dunno, page, one page
would you write it like an actual, can you fit it in a diary or have you got to write it, the date, just, just like a proper diary?
i'm not sure.
you should really do it like a, like make a little folder thing up and then date it monday, you know 
yeah.
if you do it for when you've actually left home , when you, when you've actual left at twenty past seven no 
what doing monday then?
i asked them how old she was?
charlie chaplin, thirty six years old.
big, big boobs go run your bath.
gosh look at the size of those glasses.
.
well, yeah.
six years, how can you always say they're ah
ah, what's wrong the baby?
.
what's the matter with gary lineker's baby then?.
.
keep fit till after christmas, don't like the cold weather, he's gonna go back after christmas and do it.
is he?
does it, is it, just, is it just run erm
.
, what erm, does that cricket thing , steve, is it or is it just cricket season?
cricket season.
who is it then?
goodness when you, mum and dad's done the back garden, when you meant to be doing the front garden with the weeding and that?, well what's all, you know, all these wages.
i haven't got the time.
where you gonna go and get this seat then?
dunno , it mean's i've got to spend money, it'll be late.
.
oh yeah.
and some clothes.
.
no way, unless you're getting in, if you, if dad's getting you some clothes and then,
.
wrap them up for christmas.
no.
wh ,wh , what you having for christmas then?
.
yeah, and have all this stuff and then they make greedy.
greedy.
you buy the suit.
no.
you buy
you wear .
you said you were gonna club towards it all the money out your post office.
dad had said he'd pay for it on access.
think you'd give him the money.
get out of it.
there's still
there's ninety pounds that i'd borrow off you, i'm going to use that towards it.
no, you pay me that ninety pound back
i will do
plus a years access to the .
no.
.
no.
oh come on lee.
that must of been where, that must be where we got .
we've got the fifty pound computer.
we didn't have to pay for that.
who's done that?
no one,i can keep that,.
what?
we bought a fifty pound computer and said to kevin you can keep it.
.
yeah and i paid ten pounds.
i put that down on his christmas list.
i'll draw it in a suit, clothes.
yeah, but you won't be getting much because you've had lots.
don't want , chocolates.
didn't get any .
tenner on chocolates.
you go out and do eight hundred pound this weekend.
oh are you?
yeah.
where you going to go to get for you,, i don't know why they're cutting down all of erm, his, they've got some nice ones on there.
on the top there.
how much?
bought a few last night down at mitcham didn't they?
how much?
what?
the receipt.
do you see this at mitcham?
no more than a hundred pound.
no .
they got a nice one in
mr harrod.
i don't know where, a hundred and forty pounds.
too much.
why?
because it is, isn't it dave?
what?
a hundred and forty pound for a suit.
what is?
he, a hundred and forty pound, far too, be like those green trousers you bought, well you've never worn them yet.
don't fit me.
no, i have worn them actually.
you've worn them one night.
i've wore it a couple of times for .
don't give me that rubbish.
i have, but i like my jeans though.
well think, why pay out for a hundred and forty pounds for a suit, when you gonna wear it again?
could be, wear it every week.
yeah, i'm sure a walking bank be glad when you've got a job, you'll be earning your own money you can buy your own things.
yeah, but i do any way.
when?
trainers lost that eighty quid
oh.
trainers.
you've lost it?
why?
cos i haven't got it, i owe vincent that nine pound, i must of spent some of it.
i wanted to, look, i've made a list, list out for nan and i've, there's, the c d you've gotta put on that list, and i also wanted a c 
don't want c d's, set of tapes, c d's are a waste of money.
why?
after having a c d for christmas last year, they're a waste of money.
no, but it's cheaper to buy a tape because the .
yeah you ain't got, you get better quality on a c d.
if you've got the c d we could all , yes you do, we could all use it, then you could have blank tapes, and then you can tape it on cassette but i want a list of two c d's and i, in argos if there's a watch nan want's the list and she want's it this weekend.
no you don't .
mm.
but, i want it done tonight.
.
yes, i've got to give nan a ring.
what tonight?
well, over the next couple of days, what's the matter then?
if you've got a hole which is like that
.
put the water which is rushing through
yeah .
, go flying up it, how far you gonna go?
not all the way.
aren't ya?
yeah.
and then what you do there?
you stay there.
that's what carla's got look.
no, cos the water's not coming up above your face, the water's filled the whole going down and it's got gates.
have to try sitting down then.
how can you swivel through the gates?
well how do you get through the gates?
loads of water get up through the gates.
so.
yeah, so up to the gates, just push yourself off the gates
.
how quick can you get to the surface, must be strong ,, two, three riding down to the and you're gonna push it out the way, it's like, it's like the tide, it comes in and then goes back out,.
should be two in there.
why?
i don't see .
no if, cos there seemed a pair.
.
at this work experience .
in .
do they?
i asked for some once.
you did?
no, i never pick up the phone, they do that, pick up one phone and speak for a minute, while that ones ringing they say hold on a minute, and pick up the other one.
what's it about then?
, it's only about this erm, i have to do the practice.
huh?
have to do the practice.
know how to do them now?
you should at peter's.
i don't know peter's .
no, i don't actually.
cos i don't know his can't do it.
quit easy though isn't it?
all you do is, stick it through, phone your number, push the button, it's gone through.
i get fed up doing the .
yeah, but, even when you leave school that's what happens don't it?
i, i mean you usually start off with the boy everybody has to start at the bottom,.
.
mm, i'm sure.
you make yourself cough more by lying down there.
some of those kim's, women she work's with the teacher, he daughter's in this, doesn't half get paid a lot of money 
not for doing this though, ah?
it is, yeah, something like that, i it's quite a lot of money though.
you might be doing it?..
the kid's love it, carla would love it wouldn't she?
yeah, lynn just ordered that one for victoria, she had it on order for seven weeks twenty four pound it was that one 
it'll be easy if you write it down.
no, just mark on, just put a cross straight through.
what you have to, what page is it in, in the book?
page forty six
page forty?.
yeah,.
classical.
yeah.
i .
that's three.
yeah what's it called?
.
be about .
,.
who is it?
b i b
yeah.
a l 
g i b, is it one word or two?
one,.
.
b i b
yeah.
a l d i, one word
yeah.
four seasons.
.
.
dad we wanna play it on saturday don't toys, toys and games.
oh we don't know how much it is.
yours .
yeah.
right next one.
huh, he's probably too much excited of .
right, welcome page forty four.
yeah, item number.
six.
yeah.
amy grant, heart in motion.
don't know to use bob marley one or not.
who is it?
amy grant.
yeah.
erm, hearts in motion.
heart in motion is that two words or one?
hearts in motion, all three words.
what is it m, o, t
i, o, n.
moton?
no it's not, i, o, n.
m, o, t, i
o, n, amy grant, i don't know if got bob marley one or not.
he's good.
we can buy you that then, if you want it, we never know what to buy you.
right now that's it, were now in the argos .
so did you get your good work for, your good sticker for work again or what?or what?
yes.
and that's is your letter box up at christmas yet?
your poster box?
we have to .
that's on sunday, so what's happening on sunday carla?
what do you do?
on monday eh
so what is it ad advent calendars.
hooray.
which one is it lee?
.
don't you like that other one,, it's just plain leather strap?
there
that one?
no up the top, third one down on the right hand side.
with the grey strap?
yeah, i thought that was quite nice on the right hand side page, that one,, three down, yeah.
that one?
mm.
thought that was quite nice.
her dad said he lives there and erm.
pick that one up now,the bits.
and erm,.
won't hurt, spying on them in it?
sorry.
they're the .
what you want they .
that's it, it's just after the look at the ballerina broach and see what you think, broach, no silver, keep going
that?
keep going 
that's a nice ring,number one.
what's it say?
one,it's eleven ninety nine, nineteen carat gold, erm, something ring, size one to t, no i to t .
what size was you?
erm, u, no .
i like that one the best, shall i put that down?
argos number one.
i know the one.
that .
can i try that one?
we'll see christmas, who?, no it's , er it's on the right hand side, it's, it's the next page at the bottom is it?
that's not there.
how much?
sterling silver, ballerina broach, nineteen, no, eight, eight ninety nine.
got crystals in it?
mm.
do you think she'd like that?
bennettons, you can buy that .
which one, yeah that's the one that erm kim's been trying to get lorraine the bennetton one.
nineteen ninety nine.
that's not bad, bennetton one?
shall i put that down, argos number fourteen argos number fourteen.
hang on, page first.
page six.
yeah,
number fourteen,
yeah,
nineteen ninety nine.
the one that .
nineteen ninety nine pounds.
about sixty nine, seventy pounds.
seventy pounds.
what is?
oh yeah, you can get the one i want in.
extra brill.
i'll write it down but you'll have to write to see what father christmas says.
i might .
that was seventy.
seventy.
. right now it oh it's seventy in argos.
what's that?
erm, one and a half keyboard, item number
hang on.
one and a half keyboard item number five and it sixty nine quid, fifty p.
sixty nine quid, don't you mean sixty nine pounds and fifty pence.
pounds .
mm .
got no baby strap.
fallen in love with that stuff.
you'll have to get your stuff down and, you know what one we'll have to get, you know those big cases that she get's from ikea, and bring it all down and get one of those for your bedroom and keep it all in started your homework yet lee?
what?
started your homework yet?
no.
didn't you do it while i was out?
yeah, when you come in.
was that rushing you to get that paper going?
.
that's that little powerful car, like, kearin's, but he's got the motor bike .
daddy can we swop places now?
why?
cos i wanna sit next to you and lee.
no.
why?
you're gonna have to go a long then, cos i'm going up the pub, ha, ha.
no you're not actually.
.
is it on now?
, play .
.
carla, pass that bag for me please,, what did i tell you about jumping on that couch?
and when you come home from school, mm.
saturday.
no but you're going dancing tomorrow morning at nine thirty and then you'll be going straight to the , you won't have time tomorrow 
tonight?.
no, i'm trying to get my christmas shopping done.
got to take me out.
i will take you out, i don't want you out with me this time..
taken off the black bush.
no,second tonight, the second .
.
.
got a wipe somewhere, don't wipe yourself,rubbish.
going to get lee's ski stuff your cold better .
ah?
is lee's cold better?
what are you doing today?
nice day today.
might be able to finish about twelve.
why?
cos the building lot they're all going to a meeting at er arsenal.
can i have some lemonade .
you've got to go to meeting?
dad said he's buying me a hotel .
you going back to work on .
i might.
you might?
that's when i'll be finished.
i've still got another week to come though, that might be about january the third onwards, for a week.
christmas.
can't get any time off, they won't let you take it off, two days i get.
probably get christmas day.
christmas day and boxing day if i .
what's boxing day, the day after?
mm.
oh dear,working for a living,you get the work don't ya?
loads of people there.
you get up christmas day morning to do all the breakfast with the screaming kids.
is it .
mm.
.
what is?
.
where's that then?
i've got dancing .
yeah, but leave at quarter past four, you are pushing it.
take to london?
no, erm,school.
what's there then?
school, school on a coach.
forty five minutes.
what to get to guilford? forty five minutes.
no, forty five minutes before i get, when i get home, i've got, i have my dinner.
oh, it takes forty five minutes to .
as long as she has her dinner.
er, when i get home i've got to have my dinner, got to get changed
no, cos you can go without your dinner can't you?
oh,.
and have that at seven o'clock.
that's what .
.
it's they're all doing erm,i've got you , right and there's a really daffy bloke he i've got you .
that's how he's singing it?
yeah, he had to sing it like that and then, then there's, there's only two of them, you know and erm, the, er, other, the other one, he's a black man yeah, and he goes who's that big gorilla in the back and he's pointing to me .
oh was he ha, ha .
and then erm, then they had this thing called niff, which was water, and they came round spraying all of us.
so where do they come, is vicky in the actual group?
why is she, what, does she watch?
not her, not just her, all her mates.
ooh, feeling a bit tired.
why isn't she in it then?
it's not eight o'clock.
she's not in domestic .
did you get all that stuff in .
no, it's not .
see that robin carla, see little robin over there.
where?
over in that tree there,, see it, that big tree, er, on the left hand branch, see it, see it now, with a red breast.
rocking robin.
what one?
see the branch that sticks up?
goes that way.
what one?
what tree?
see the new tree they've planted.
oh them.
that broken, that bird, that 
oh yeah, i can see it.
there it goes.
gone in keith's house, i was looking in our garden .
, oh.
.
you wouldn't know what tree was brenda.
is that, is that my cup of tea?
look he's come down stairs,sit on the chair carla.
certainly .
oh no, that's what have you been doing then?
this week .
this week .
yeah, but i don't normally do i?
have a cup of tea though.
i have a cup of tea do think he's on holiday.
there multiplying, and i'm loosing control .
got another .
yes.
oh, oh.
what you working on essay at the moment?
.
no, what is it, like these do that, do, do you do algebra in that school yet or not?
it's stuck underneath 
the bridge.
still stuck
richard.
hello !
come up here.
urgh!
i don't want my .
di di di, ah da 
here we go.
richard!
you've got your what?
take the other side off.
a birthday?
it's an aeroplane that's
you're in an aeroplane?
oh i see.
i'll be the cook .
she's sitting on a and doesn't know what she's sitting on!
i see.
right i'll be, i'll be the .
and matthew's the cook in the kitchen.
richard, you're the driver.
i'm being 
right.
the driver.
that's one of matthew's sticks!
you want matthew to ?
right.
richard!
stop driving!
more please?
stop driving richard.
can i have some more?
can i have some more?
that's mine!
i forgot, i've gotta change the batteries.
get off!
get off!
get off!
well the driver doesn't get any!
give that here!
mm mm.
this is good.
richard!
stop driving please!
please richard!
please richard!
please stop jumping on the chair arms will you?
yeah.
you don't jump on chair arms.
that was your daddy james and richard and bryony.
your, he's, he's er he's going to try to leave school earlier today and he'll be here at half past four instead of quarter past five.
so, i'll just drink my coffee and i'll get your tea ready quickly.
richard, you've gotta set the table.
richard, let me wipe your nose again.
keep still.
don't move your head around.
i'll eat it up.
there you are.
right, let me drink my coffee quickly and then get their tea ready.
james!
oh gosh!
i'm going to be drinking cold coffee here aren't i?
you, can you slow down!
d'ya know rebecca
oh dear!
what you gonna do?
rebecca made me a cup of coffee ages ago
i didn't really mean it.
and i'm never going to get it drunk.
oh!
oh!
right.
oh!
oh!
are you in the aeroplane now?
yo!
oh!
you're what?
you're bad guys?
i know that 
good guys.
you don't have to tell me you're bad 
yeah.
guys.
i'm being a bad guy.
is that rebecca?
you keep swallowing .
amy.
who's doing anything 
you did that?
exciting this weekend?
me!
not me.
not you?
we've got to sit at the back 
what are you doing?
nothing.
you're not doing anything?
can amy catch this aeroplane?
ah!
you can.
that there was a mighty splash.
he'll, he'll tell you what's next.
he please come out of that drawer will you?
that's right.
there was a mighty splash and he fell head first into the river and he didn't come up again.
that's exactly right.
you know it word for word.
every time i say what which story shall we have today, they say the three billy goats gruff.
get off!
it's exactly 
the same.
i don't need you!
exactly the same as when i used to look after
.
amy and richard!
here's your mum.
amy and richard!
here's your mummy, amy and richard.
amy, mummy !
just, he's going 
here's your mummy!
oh!
d'ya know i've wiped, washed this floor three times from this orange spilt!
seventeen one eighty fives?
thirty one
can't be bad cos i couldn't work it out !
don't ask me.
do you want a calculator?
i did it twice in my 
mum!
head.
mum!
thank you.
thank yo thank you very much.
what, what did she say to you?
she's trying to work money out 
oh 
in her head.
move over please rebecca, i need to sweep there dear.
let's have a look.
i'll just, come over here cos this is hot.
no you want it!
no!
oh no!
we want it in soup cups.
get your 
no!
yes you want it in soup cups.
you can have it in soup cups.
do not worry.
i'm stirring it to make sure it's hot enough.
warm enough.
don't worry .
i'll have to though.
i've got a clean spoon.
i don't want a spoon.
erm 
it isn't warm enough yet.
go on.
just taste it.
i didn't want the soup 
yes yo 
warming .
yes you want, you don't want cold 
are you go are you gonna get me a spoon?
soup, it's a cold day.
no!
let's see.
have you got your sleeves pushed up?
that ready.
we don't want soup on your sleeves.
that ready.
do mine.
have you 
mum.
oh.
these are amy's papers aren't they?
yeah.
there you are.
ee ee ee ee.
that's it.
i've got my .
what are you doing?
i, i'll, i'll cut that in two.
wait a minute, i'll cut it in two.
it's too big.
with a bit of luck.
here you are.
sit on your chair.
there's a piece of stottie for you.
and there's a piece of stottie for you.
wave bye-bye to ann now.
bye-bye ann.
bye-bye richard.
bye amy.
bye.
bye andrea.
thank you.
cor!
i'll have to give this floor a wipe again.
my shoes are sticking to the floor.
where there's orange been spilt.
mm mm.
oh !
where's bryony gone?
bryony come and have your tea pet .
your dad's coming at half past four.
well as near as half past four he can.
that means he'll be quarter to five !
why's he early tonight for?
well dorothy had to go to a prison in erm clackmannan for her
mm mm.
you know with her job
yeah.
and while she's up there, after she's been there she was going to creep to spe 
what does she do again for
probation officer.
oh!
she's going to spend the night with her sister
yeah.
and then pick her mother up cos she lives in creep as well, she can't stay at her mother's house cos she's just 
oh!
got a one bedroomed flat.
one bedroom flat?
yes.
anyway, she's i think it's an old people's flat.
she's got she's gonna pick her mother up and come back home, bring her mother back home tomorrow with her.
mm mm!
and 
is that martin's granny iris?
that's right.
mm mm.
and she's going to stay for a fortnight with them.
so bu bryony!
your tea, come and have your tea !
what's she doing?
watching television .
come on square eyes!
never mind the television.
oh!
golly!
this floor's sticky everywhere.
you must have spilt more juice than i wiped up.
mm.
come on bryony.
okay.
never mind, by the time 
bryony!
i've wiped this i'll have washed the whole floor.
i won't need to do it tonight.
i'll get some knitting done.
seeing as i haven't any ironing to do.
we're not gonna have
see if that's better.
urgh!
you're not gonna be going before tea are you bryony?
see if this soup's warm enough now.
has she really got
she's just gonna
no!
she keeps on running 
she 
away from me.
she's not very well sally.
she's not well 
ah!
she's not even very we she's got a quite a bad 
have you got a cold?
keeps on laughing at me and running away !
oh.
come on horror!
i'm not one i'm .
are you our horror?
not a horror!
you're not a horror?
what are you?
i'm not erm
what are you?
you are the best
girl in the world!
that's right!
the best 
girl in the world sally!
we told her that once she started going to the loo every time.
there you are sh oh where's your cushion?
you can't reach the table without your cushion?
i want some more stottie 
here it is.
you want some more stottie well that's no way to get any is it?
try again.
me
may
i have some more stottie please!
that's a good boy.
you like 
thank you.
stottie don't you?
do you know when i go stay with my gareth i've got to so we've got to take stotties with us
for him and shirley.
cos they, shirley loves it as well.
and shirley's not a geordie like you.
a geordie hinny.
mm.
oh!
there's a knot in your apron.
i, i want some more stottie please?
good boy.
just a sec 
may i have er some more stottie 
you certainly may.
clever boy.
mm.
just wait one minute.
look a tree.
cos your brother's apron's got a knot in it.
please can i have some stottie please?
you may.
that apron alright?
me.
yeah.
that apron alright?
yes his apron's alright now.
you need your sleeves up.
and you need it fastened a bit higher.
i want my stottie 
yes it's coming.
it's coming.
i want it.
i
it's coming.
there you are.
don't like it.
can we have some more stottie please?
yes.
here you are.
i want to go .
there now.
thank you.
clever boy.
oh!
what polite children we've got.
haven't we?
there's another.
can i have .
mm?
we couldn't see the swans today sally.
were they
i couldn't see them either.
which way did you come home?
erm, the .
oh!
and the skillery bridge isn't washed away is it?
i know.
but there's two
except under the bridge it was.
erm trees 
but who, who started 
under there.
the rumour that skillery bridge had been washed away?
it was stephen .
yeah but then dad said when he came in that, he'd heard that the middle of it had gone.
what?
stephen came in our class and he said that er skillery bridge had
and who said the flood wall had gone?
when you were all sent home early.
er er i think he said that as well.
ha!
one way of getting out of school, i don't know !
he did.
he di he did.
said that as well?
and and none of his parents came to collect him.
he just walked by himself.
were you only collected?
could you only come out if your parents collected you?
no, i didn't think they were bothered to tell you truth.
so how did you manage to get out early?
well it was well dawn's mum came into school she said we were 
i want one!
oh!
but er nobody rang me.
mm!
i don't think i was out.
i mean, i would have come up and 
i've got a soup!
and got you all.
have i got all my soup?
you have, yes.
you like that soup don't you?
i don't know how she came in the school.
sh she just came in.
she got this pen and paper and wrote everybody's names down mm mm so then she just 
i didn't re 
took them all out.
i didn't realize, i would have thanked her.
i've seen her twice since then.
mm mm!
i didn't, i didn't realize that erm 
i wanna do something in my chair.
right.
let's find some spoons.
one 
you love stottie cake.
two
two three!
three ee ee!
there's a spoon for bryony.
one for james.
and one for richard.
are you going to swap hands richard?
i'll cross hands.
you've, you've got it in 
oh!
you're going to be right handed today are you?
i'm not trying to use both hands.
that's first time i've seen richard use his right hand.
with his spoon.
who's this coming?
matthew, here's your daddy!
mummy's coming back for you two.
hello.
right then.
hello.
feeding time?
it is.
.
there you go, you can speak to yourself.
you're pretending that you're speaking to somebody and just speak all the time .
i don't .
you can't find your what?
find my shoes.
well 
you can't find your shoe?
you've probably
they're eating better than they did at dinner time.
the triplets will have eaten it?
what?
a shoe.
that wouldn't surprise me at all, the things i've seen them try to eat.
nope.
erm
i'll let i'll let you figure this one out.
is it four four times?
monday he didn't come tuesday he didn't come
wednesday he didn't come.
wednesday he didn't come.
thursday was about 
thursday 
he did.
i did two sessions .
so that's five from ten.
i didn't think i could be 
well i know what you mean.
could i have some more stottie 
i ha 
cake please?
i haven't been up there since i got in from school
aha.
i haven't checked with the so in, just in case they don't 
right.
see it
okay.
they had, they've been telling everyone to go home .
right.
now then ooh!
you're eating very, very nicely.
i, i want some more of that er please.
er don't wipe your se hang on a minute till i catch this soup that's dribbling down.
you want some more stottie cake?
i do.
i, i got more of this soup.
you have, yes.
yeah.
yeah.
is it delicious?
scrumptious!
scrumptious?
it's dripping all over the place.
it's dripping on the table is it?
there's your stottie bryony.
there you are james.
please can i have some more?
yes you may.
please.
he, he says he'll eat this.
oh!
there you are richard.
thank you.
thanks ann.
thank you ann.
good boy.
thank you ann.
good 
you're welcome.
orange juice.
he's got orange juice in it's got orange juice in it.
your cup's got orange juice in it has it?
have you got everything matthew?
thank you.
do you think i'll be able to put my wellies away now?
away .
i think bryony likes erm smarties because she's always sucking the juice out of beans.
i'm just going to, i think i can put my wellies away now.
you nearly needed your waders, i tell you!
well, we were getting worried.
you'll get, i'll bet you were getting
okay.
thanks a lot.
bye.
bye matthew.
bye.
right.
oh!
i was gonna put the television off but rebecca's still in there?
rebecca, is joanna coming tonight?
or is she going to library?
i think she'll be 
oh look!
going somewhere because 
i think 
it's twenty past four now.
mm.
yes.
well it's quarter past already.
why are you eating left-handed this bryony?
you don't eat left-handed.
and richard's decided to be right-handed after all this time.
well that is daddy's isn't it?
i'm not spilling it too.
i'm not spilling too.
no, you're not spilling it.
you're being very careful.
yes.
but
can you drink it?
but, but i'm making it very hard.
can you drink it ?
no.
take your spoon out of this
he's got it on his face!
cup.
he's got it on his 
no.
face!
put that there.
who's got it on his face?
he's got moustache!
right.
carefully, with two hands then.
i want the spoon.
you need your spoon.
oh.
there it is.
wait a minute now, we'll just wipe that on this off the table so it doesn't go on your sleeve.
that's it.
there's some on my arm.
there's some on your arm is there?
hang on a minute then.
let me see.
is it off?
it is.
that's good.
that's why we push your sleeves up cos we don't want it on your arms do we?
erm hands.
on your hand?
there you are then.
it's off.
what are they having for their pudding?
er er
richard's got it all over his face !
let's see you richard.
yo oh just a minute, it's dripping down your chin.
let me get it off here so it doesn't go on your collar.
lift your chin up cos your collar's got out of your pinny somehow or other.
let me wipe it down here look.
it's on the edge of the table.
that's it.
that's it.
and on my .
oh well you'll ha if you keep getting it on your fingers just eat it up and i'll wash you when you've finished.
as long as it's not going near your sleeve it doesn't matter.
shall i i want to stir it.
oh!
girls.
what are you doing?
stop that now.
look, don't mess about.
daddy's coming early for you today.
we've got these in our house.
those?
those 
these 
soup like soup like things.
well you know where i got them from.
when er 
i dunno.
you probably got them from the same place.
they were free with petrol.
oh.
and when paul had his taxi business.
betty gave us them.
betty?
betty gave you yours.
betty gave me mine.
they use so much petrol on a taxi business they got she's got about a dozen still i think.
she gave me five i think it was.
it's those that's the same.
well i think jim got one and i got five.
erm betty gave me five i meant.
i think we've got about four or five.
richard!
properly please.
and there.
no.
do you want some help?
anyone want some help?
well you're getting nowhere doing that.
come on, i'll help you.
i want to do that!
well, well do it properly then.
look if you hold the handle you can tip it, tip it up.
like, like that.
mm mm.
it.
bryony's going to drink hers.
mm!
i like that smell.
do you?
mm.
my er 
was it good washing with that bold al bold all in one?
erm
don't slurp it.
stop it !
i didn't think it was really much better than any
mm mm.
item used.
are you finished bryony?
i'm finished.
are you going to eat your stottie 
that's, that's you keep on eating.
don't!
right.
that's to go home with trevor.
has bryony got her other shoe back on again by the way, does anybody know?
erm, nope.
she's, got a bare foot and sa a shoe on .
shall i take that off you 
yeah.
now you've eaten 
all that?
good girl.
give me your spoon.
give me your spoon.
thank you.
clever girl!
what a clever girl!
and you're a clever 
look at those two!
pardon?
no, look at those two.
look at those two?
yes.
they're being good boys 
they're good boys 
aren't they?
well 
there.
look at the sun shining again!
hooray!
what?
it's not dark yet.
no it's not dark yet.
it it's springtime now.
it was dark when you went home in the 
it's light time.
winter.
it's light time.
it's light time is it?
light time.
it's the day time.
oh.
mm.
it gets dark later now.
cos it's springtime now.
and james has so soup on his sweatshirt.
mm.
keep still a minute while i wipe you.
no that's that you don't 
it's because 
james will not sit straight at the table, he sits 
sideways.
i know.
don't you?
i don't.
oh yes you do.
ohyes you do 
no i don't 
ohyes you do 
no i don't .
yes you do.
that's not what you're supposed to say.
richard'll tell you what you're supposed to say.
you do it richard.
oh!yes you do .
yes you do !
i don't richard.
do you want him to have this 
and what do you say?
do you anne?
what?
you didn't have this one before.
no.
you go.
no i said that.
you look as if you've been washing your face in soup.
do you want that one?
oh oh!
thanks sal.
sally be careful!
oh you've got your sock off as well.
not sally, bryony.
i'm calling you sally!
aren't i silly?
i'm not 
yeah.
sally.
you're not sally are you?
i said i'm not sally.
i'll go and i'll go and find your can anyone see bryony's sock?
oh there it is.
and where's her shoe?
right.
right.
let's put your shoe and so 
that's my shoe!
put your shoe and sock back on.
ooh!
bryony.
very good!
thank you james.
good boy.
give me your spoon.
let me see you take it off.
thank you.
ooh!
it's not here.
have you finished with, ooh no, not quite richard.
not finished.
not finished now.
i want to do it.
well i'll he look it's difficult to get the last bit out of soup cups, i'll help you.
you do it then.
here you are.
i'll tip 
wait a minute look, you've got some on the table, you don't want your sleeve in that.
i don't that bit there.
you don't want that piece?
right let's sling it on the garage roof for the birds.
here you are stuggies wo!
for the birds.
i hit it.
right from the back door.
d'ya think 
it's the 
i'm brilliant?
i give it the birds.
er, wait a minute.
d'ya want a 
i think you brilliant.
you think i'm brilliant?
that's good.
do you want something else to eat?
i do.
well sit back at the table please.
don't get off your chair until you've finished.
i sit there.
let's see what i've got 
i want 
let's see what i 
no 
can find for you.
aargh!
aargh!
aargh.
urgh!
do you want one of these?
i do.
i want one of them please.
say yes please.
i don't 
yes please.
want one.
you don't?
no.
i don't wa i this one.
there you are.
i want a green one.
you wanted the green one?
what 
yeah.
colour have you got james.
i want a green one.
lellow one.
yes, you've got yellow.
i want green.
there's one for you.
right.
let's see
i, i get, there you are.
there you are.
there you are.
i thank you.
give me yo 
ann can you look, look a colour one for me?
see what colour's in here for you then?
you got a red one for me haven't you?
what love?
here you are.
thank you.
oh!
one for her, and none for .
i have to get the packet open first.
it's difficult.
where's my sharp knife?
i'm gonna get you!
here we are.
what colour ra what colour richard?
it's er er er erm
what colour is it?
green.
yes.
green.
another green one.
there you are richard.
now where have i put the cloth?
here.
i keep losing things don't i?
we've lost one.
i've lost one.
lost one what?
lost er
what have you lost one of?
let me just wipe your hands and your chin before you wipe them on your sleeves.
what are you doing down there bryony?
get back on th 
i dropped it.
i got it.
what did you get?
i got it.
can i have another biscuit please?
you got what?
i got my chocolate biscuit back.
well i got you gre got another green one haven't you?
you want me to open that?
i don't wanna, i'll do it.
i want you to leave it open.
do you want it opening?
i just want you to leave it in.
you want it leaving in?
i want it leaving in.
don't you want to eat it?
i can still, i can still eat it inside.
my shoe come off.
you mean you want the wrapper leaving on it?
oh.
my shoe come off.
i know.
i'm going to put your shoe on any second.
i want the wrapper on.
do you mean like this richard?
i want
is that what you mean?
the wrapper on.
there you are.
on it.
right bryony i'll put your shoe on now.
that's a .
come on then.
it's your other foot.
bring your foot round carefully.
that's it.
and who's coming to see you tomorrow?
daddy!
no, daddy's coming in a minute for you.
who's coming to see you tomorrow?
mummy!
daddy!
yes, mummy's coming back from scotland, but who's she bringing with her?
granny iris!
granny iris!
granny iris!
yes.
won't that be lovely ?
and your granny jean had a lovely holiday.
she went over the sea in an aeroplane didn't she?
what?
to jordan.
i'm going on today!
and she went to egypt at the end of last year.
south america.
goes on lots of holidays doesn't she?
there now.
are you finished james?
go, going on holiday 
again.
my goodness!
you've filled your mouth too fu 
going on holiday again.
mm mm?
keep still.
i've nearly finished.
you've still got that lot.
do you want some milk james?
yeah i want
pardon?
yes please.
better.
where's your cup gone?
here.
erm
i'll get you some milk.
a i er i don't want erm finish my bun.
there you are dear.
drink some milk richard now.
i, oops!
it's lovely and sunny now.
i want cold milk.
don't want it warming do i?
no.
there you are.
thank you.
i big boy, i need the toilet.
you need the toilet?
a wa 
i say i've got a wa well i i don't i, but er i didn't er, i will get washed.
i'll take the 
yes.
you need to be washed first.
mm.
let's wash your face quickly 
i will 
then, then we'll go to the toilet.
erm i will walk on the back erm .
let's see your hands.
i need the toilet.
i need
you need the toilet as well?
i need a poo please.
oh right.
i need a wee.
if they need the toilet 
i'll take them.
oh thanks sal.
you need the toilet james?
just a minute 
erm 
i'll take it off for you.
and i'll take them too cos i'm gonna go as well.
oh!
rebecca needs the toilet as well.
you can take richard up cos i'll take james.
she's going to take you.
i don't think james ne richard needs to go, it's, it's 
no.
er james.
sit down there you do ne ne don't need to go yet do you?
wait sal!
sal.
wait a minute.
mm mm mm.
it isn't loose enough it won't go over your head.
you look after er amy.
look after amy?
amy's gone home.
amy's gone home.
look a .
you
amy, and big richard and matthew have all gone 
yeah.
home now.
but they didn't, you won't get richard .
come on then.
come on then.
er, richard!
you're not going upstairs in a mess like that, you'll stick your hands on everything you come to.
let's get you washed.
are you going to finish eating that first?
you sit there and finish eating that and i'll wash your hands.
.
i've eaten all up!
you've eaten it all up?
i've 
yo 
finished.
you put too much in your mouth at once.
you can hardly close your mouth!
mm mm.
can you?
i'm throwing water in the ceiling.
i'm putting water in the ceiling.
you put water in the ceiling?
no, i'll put water on your ceiling.
i don't want water on the ceiling.
we had water on the ceiling.
and i we i'm gonna put all of my .
gareth's turned the bath on.
when gareth lived with us before he got married he turned the bath on and walked away and left it.
mm mm.
that was a mess!
we couldn't have the lights on.
all the water came over the top of the bath.
i, i er,o we had to get the ladders we had to go up the ladders didn't we?
had to get the, ladder?
i thought, they'd
they went years ago.
well i thought they'd gone but, but i saw them here.
how long was our guarantee?
well there won't be anybody there.
at horsefields.
oh yeah!
i haven't even read the papers today.
exactly.
past a thousand picture window normally two hundred and forty a pound, now only forty eight pounds.
what?
do you think it's a real ?
well it says it is, it's been
it's a whole page spread.
three at five hundred there.
don't go for that one there.
the last three hundred .
there's no catch.
from such an established reputable company.
all prices are fully inclusive of double glazing the raid one security p v c, da da da.
fittings and all the service guaranteed .
well i don't know.
it doesn't say anywhere where there's a guarantee.
all windows in cheshire.
i wonder if it's the same address as when we got ours?
well, we should have the guarantee still, there in the box there.
unle it's, it's how 
well 
long is it since it was supposed to have gone bust?
well that's since that.
i thought it had gone ins 
i thought it was about ten years.
ah.
wasn't there somewhere in lancaster park who got the ?
i can't remember.
when we got that, when we had ours it, and er they said if you if you found someone else who would like who would have cold shield you would get er, seventy five pounds back.
mhm.
and you gave the thing to, who was it who was thinking about it?
was it erm what did they call isobel isobel
.
.
wasn't it her?
it might have been.
i can't remember.
wasn't it just before or after her husband died?
dunno.
cos that, well i don't know, her husband died when we were just, came here.
it could have been that.
yeah.
yeah.
well i phoned shirley and she said she's fine.
mhm.
i told her off for not le not telling me she was ill.
and she said, no, no!
i'm fine.
she's got her friend sandy staying with her.
so where's gareth gone?
she was, he was in the house, i didn't speak to him though 
oh.
so that, i just spoke to shirley.
erm sandy's staying with her for a few days.
what else did she say?
did you say about us going down or not?
no i didn't mention it.
ah.
at the moment.
have you asked her about the 
she's got somebody 
the letter?
staying now.
i asked her about the letter and she kne she said she couldn't remember anything about it but she filled in something when they came back from belfast.
mhm.
and she said, open it.
so i opened it and it's one of these things er if you book to go to dublin before may the, whatever, the end of may
mhm.
then if you went again in the autumn you you ge you get er fifty pounds' worth of vouchers or something,yo you go half price.
it's one of those con things like they tried
well like our holiday they, they go 
yes.
and,an where they booked.
why , i mean why would she go to
dublin, yeah.
dublin before 
mm.
it's and why dublin when er, when they were
coming across from belfast.
when they crossed from northern 
aha.
ireland?
i don't know.
cos they're trying to sell the things aren't 
yeah.
they, all the time?
anyway, she doesn't want it.
martin still ha hasn't got his erm invalidity pension sorted out.
mm mm.
but he's managing alright at the moment.
he's filled in all the things.
i forgot to er, i haven't watched the television at all.
and i forgot to record, what do you call that thing?
with a devil in it?
well it was half 
i fo 
way through when i came 
i forgot to 
in.
that's, i know, i forgot to record it for you.
i think i'll go to bed early tonight.
does that rain mean it's off the coast or it's
mm.
in our area ?
ha.
and was that minus one just the western side or us as well?
we'll get to th 
oh yeah.
we'll get it with the local news after this.
oh well.
according to this it's cloud.
at least it's a white cloud not a black one.
did you see your mother?
no .
oh.
but i've got a message , will you tell my brother, no, don't tell my brother th sa they said she said to one of the nurses and they said, your brother?
oh!
my son.
i said well what did yo don't you have to tell me?
she says, i'm not gonna tell you.
so i didn't get to hear what, what, i , they didn't have to tell nothing.
oh.
what was she doing tonight?
i don't know.
ooh!
mostly dry 
mostly 
sunny spells.
sunny spells.
i'll have to get some washing done.
oh!
sally was quite intrigued by that.
you'll have to get this week's a new one.
we'll have to get a a better box.
there's some bottles jars for the bottle bank as well.
you know the last time you missed the erm
aye.
the last time you missed the television pages television supplement and a comic thing out of the mirror.
i don't think he believed me.
and it's in it'll be twice in a month.
and chris is back again as our paper boy.
tt.
what happened to the new one?
the other was so useless!
but according to the er, that new manager in the paper shop everyone else got theirs.
so i said, well i'm sorry but i'm not included in everyone else.
and he gave me one.
i think i'll get the radio times this week .
the radio times?
why?
cos it's got all the them extra wo got all of them extra ones in.
oh.
are we staying up all thursday night?
i don't know.
what shift are you on on friday?
i'm off.
oh!
of course.
well you could stay in bed all day on friday.
and i could take the kids to school and go back i could do that.
we need to oh no we don't.
i need to go to the co-op and iceland.
what shall i get for your mother?
i'll get her some chocolate biscuits or something.
you would think she would put on a lot of weight wouldn't you?
i don't think she eats that much though.
i know, she's she doesn't eat that much, but what she is eating i everything's sweet.
mm.
chocolates and 
is she eating them?
pardon?
does she eat though?
well sh i don't know.
you know what the 
she goes in the 
staff are like?
mm?
you know what those sa staff are like.
i know.
most of them are, well yes.
but, they certainly do.
if anyone offered me a chocolate when i was nursing, yes i would eat it cos i was always hungry .
which reminds me i meant to get weighed this morning before i had my breakfast.
that don't matter.
and i forgot.
remind me tomorrow.
before i eat anything.
i think i'd better put some washing in before i go out.
are those ankle boots dry?
that's all she's saying you couldn't it with these before if you .
what?
the boots you've got on.
give better support than the ones those flat heeled ones.
where did you buy them from?
for your achilles' tendon.
it's better now.
i get, on wednesday i, i did the erm angeline said to me don't do the high impact if you think it's going to hurt again.
i co still have the support under it.
i managed okay.
it didn't hurt.
who's angeline?
which is the right one for
the pink one's a dish cloth.
the blue one's the one i wipe up small stains off the floor.
right.
i wonder how bryony is?
what?
i said, i wonder how bryony is?
and she wasn't very well yesterday.
every time she got a bump or knock off one of the others she was crying instead of clouting them back.
it must have been richard, i do i don't think richard's very, he 
sorry, what d'ya say richard was?
i said i don't well stop running the tap.
i say, i don't think richard's very well either.
cos he cried more than usual.
i wonder what time, the other night, trevor had with them on his own?
what do you think of granny jean offering it offering again to get martin from school to save trevor walking him home?
well it's well perhaps there's nothing in it for him.
i don't know.
i like her.
mm?
i like her.
can i just ri rinse my thingy.
and get my in.
ooh!
i've got hand cream on my hands.
that spurtle was used as a i can't 
a 
remember what richard was using it as yesterday.
well he was poking me in the groin.
what are we going to do about these tiles for the step
i dunno.
to cover this little hole in our path?
i should hate to think what must be down there now.
tt.
oh!
well leave it cos it's it's
well i told you that fenwicks had and they were cheaper than
cheaper?
fenwicks?
but cheaper than what they call it?
the place in, the old place.
yes.
they were cheaper.
i got the price for you.
cheaper than the do-it-yourself shop up brady's?
they were both
but when, can we get through to newcastle?
well i well i'll have a week's holiday after easter and i've gotta go unless we go to .
and i've got a an all day meeting, i've arranged it on the tuesday that's if we're being presented to .
which tuesday?
after they break up?
that's right.
which is, this, next friday.
yes.
so i hope to sort it out the lenten appeal well
the what?
the len 
lin 
the lenten's appeal at the schools that mrs was supposed to let miss know so she could get it off to the parents to get the money back so that they bought the scanner.
see, you didn't tell me about that.
i did tell you.
you didn't.
all you told me go on ah only this one's
miss wanted to 
all you told me was that miss was retiring.
but, i haven't to tell anyone.
which i haven't done.
which i don't intend to do.
at the beginning of lent miss approached me
yes.
to see what she should do about the lenten appeal
aha.
as she always does.
since i said, why send money to great ormond street when there was plenty of children's things local?
yes.
so i asked if we wanted anything?
and she said what about the bed at the cottage hospital?
what good's a bed with no extra nurses?
well there are special beds.
oh you mean a bed?
well
tt!
d'ya mean a special kind of mattress be 
well, she just asked about a bed, so i told her that we were
you mean a bed to replace a bed that there already is?
but why's 
she di na she just said a bed, and so 
yes.
i told her there were special beds that we have are very useful, in fact very necessary in some, some cases, and are painfully short of them.
aha.
and a nimbas bed costs two thousand pound.
and there's another one on the market which i can't remember the name of, which costs a lot more.
mhm.
something like, five thousand.
but i can't remember the name.
anyway, i said i'd make enquiries as to what a is wanted.
and i said there's a, there's a new children's ward will open at the wandsbergh hospital perhaps they would like something.
i saw mrs , and mrs said they were aiming to raise money for the scanner appeal.
yeah.
but, also they're going to have a an obstetric adult patient's department at the college hospital for the very first time.
a what?
a
an obstetric outpatients
yeah.
yeah.
and they're, obviously they would be, tend to be other children with mothers then so they would like perhaps a play facility there.
and other children who go to the e n t clinic, and go to the
or just go to the outpatients in general, and the casualty
yes.
there's very limited facilities for children to play.
so but i also coaxed mrs about the wandsbergh .
anyway, she wanted to, me to go and see her, she said there we there was a scanner appeal, and she was also trying to talk about all sorts of other things that were possible and because there was an arts appeal and for arts facilities at the hospital, and all sorts of things.
so i went back to miss and said about the scanner appeal and she said that would be she thought that that would be the best idea.
not the children's things at the cottage hospital.
i also told her it's the diamond jubilee of the hospital and the children from will be invited to the hospital for that day that week, sorry.
it's gonna be a week .
so she wanted to know what date it is.
so i, i asked mrs to but would she write to miss and give her all the details.
and she said, oh she'd be, she'd be far better if she went to see and explained it all.
and that she was going on wednesday, i think.
up she went you know
hold on.
which one was going to see which 
it's 
one?
mrs was going to see miss 
was going to see miss 
.
oh.
i see.
i didn't know which one.
but i give them a so then i saw mrs on tuesday when i was at ashington.
and she came up with all sorts of things that she would like for the the new wandsbergh development.
but on a but there's nothing ready of course, so th there's, there's a giant sundial they're going to have in one of the courtyards and it's a giant one it's, it's the, the building and the blocks of things in, in the in the courtyard that make up the the time.
so the sun shines on the that particular bit of the of the courtyard and it's eight o'clock, and that one is nine o'clock and so forth.
this is just in a courtyard and there'll be shrubs and things so she's got 
hold on.
wha how where is it going to be seen from?
i presume it's seen from the wards that are up behind looking down onto this courtyard.
there's also erm a play area for the the children's ward there's also some murals on the the walls, various artistic murals.
and, of course, they've got this grant from artcan for six thousand pound for a proggie mat exhibition.
a six thousand pound grant for a proggie mat 
well
exhibition?
well over, over a period, it's and other things too but they sa they said that murals and proggie mats are involved in it.
and various other art things.
but also,th the thought of a gar a garden and the children keeping the garden up.
but that's a, apparently that was a long way and they have transport difficulties to go from here to the wandsbergh hospital.
but then i thought, perhaps if that 
i can't see the education committee with their lack of money paying for transport for children from here 
well they won't 
to go ashington hospital to do a 
they won't so the they, they 
garden.
the, the, the education committee and the school governors have no money at all 
no.
to pay for that.
i would expect 
but then 
that's a very low priority.
well it isn't even a priority, it is nothing.
they won't get the money.
th they won't pay for them to go swimming 
well i don't
they've gotta walk to go swimming.
but, i thought that now that the m s has acquired that bus and it's going to be standing around doing nothing for most of the time and it's a twenty nine seater bus.
i mean, the seats come out so that wheelchairs can go in but in between times it's twenty seats you see.
and then you'll need a p s v 
well 
licence.
but, but that's, that's that's easily remedied if you could get a er a driving licence holder to take them oh a volunteer driving licence holder among one of the parents or somebody who could take the children, er, periodically in the bus to visit the hospital to do this sort of thing.
so that was a possibility.
but i haven't seen miss about all these sort of things.
but i did also say to mrs , that a new head would be appointed to take the imports from the first of september, that it might be better to discuss it with them after i've discussed with miss .
i only know one person i only know one bus driver with children.
there's ambulance drivers.
and he got hi i think their children go to the catholic school.
er this letter from the multiple sclerosis
yes.
says any 
that says if you've got wheelchairs in you reduce your number of people.
you're not 
to sixteen.
you're not reducing the size of the bus.
well i think that's crazy.
and someone who's been just used to driving a car are they going to be able to drive the huge long bus with no extra
well
tuition?
well i, i 
whether it's got whether it's got sixteen people in it or twenty nine 
well er 
it doesn't alter the length of the bus.
i drive the minibus at the hospital
i know.
which only takes four wheelchairs and of course there's the drivers of, of the minibus things that bring them.
i think, i, i would query that anyway, that just 
would you like to get into a vehicle the length of a bus with no extra tuition 
no.
and just drive 
but, but 
it?
but i query as well, whether just because you reduce the number of spa passengers in it that you, you, you don't need a p s v licence, or the equivalent isn't a p s v licence but it's, it's
oh you do,the they've looked into that.
but it sounds doubtful to me.
but anyway there's the insurance point of view.
but anyway, any i mean that's the easy, and i mean, if, if people who are willing to drive can have experience in driving before they take passengers out.
i mean, i didn't drive the minibus until i'd driven it without passengers.
yeah.
i mean i i, i i drove the minibus with only somebody in with me before i drove out with people in it.
didn't you da drive dancy dags?
oh yes, i drove that, but that was a long time ago that.
yeah, but yo you drove that one
i drove it to ashington and 
mm.
you drive her to ashington in it.
yes.
erm do you think i should throw these roses out?
they're 
aha.
dead aren't they?
i'm afraid so.
it's a shame.
well they'll be forced for last sunday.
pardon?
they will be forced for last sunday, and that was 
oh i know.
the air wasn't it?
i know, but they were dead by about tuesday.
the yellow one was dead by tuesday.
so what a shame.
never mind.
right, i'll put my make up on.
have you decided where you want this umbrella tree?
er er
you need a saucer at the bottom.
but they're never the right size for that it wants .
well there's a huge saucer on the old one.
ah but that's in it you can put one in that 
well 
plant pot, that's a different matter altogether.
jus just leave it there for now.
erm i'm going to put my make up on and think what i need from the shops.
right.
it's ten o'clock love.
i know.
i'm gonna have to hurry up or you'll get no dinner.
i'll take that upstairs with me.
ooh!
my head feels a lot better.
it's gotta be better.
oh !
i don't 
that er 
i haven't had a a headache like this for a
still it's much more quick.
i know.
i need some le er the, i wanted a carton of live yoghurt i don't think the live yoghurt i used was any good because, for a start it was fruit flavoured, no it wasn't, it was natural, but it said mild flavoured
mm.
and i don't think it was the proper like the greek style, real live yoghurt that would have 
mm mm.
started all the fungus growing on it.
it is beginning to look like a proper stone cup though.
and they're saying that er okay, i'll go and get ready.
so do you want the yoghurt, yoghurt before we go to the ?
i don't think it matters, but if the weather's still going to be freezing at night
and if so does, does 
i've got the 
the,it's outside all the time anyway .
i know, but it's got the polythene bag round it still.
i got it standing on that brick so it would drain.
i wish i knew what to do with the other azalea.
some of the erm stems on it look as if the not mouldy but they're, they're sort of 
well we'll just have to dig it up and put 
green.
another one in.
those hyacinths in the cauldron are taking a long time to come out aren't they?
i know.
i would have thought the tulip that went in the er coal scuttle the tulips in the cauldron i thought they'd had it, they were lying down completely.
i know.
they just straightened 
they were 
up.
just grown up again.
and those forget-me-nots that are called blue ball and are supposed to have brilliant blue flowers, they're coming out with erm tiny pinkey, purpley flowers.
i know.
if they're blue, so am i!
and then we've got miniature roses gonna come up, one that's on it own, that one with the
the wha 
on the tub.
is there one in the tub?
no.
yes.
oh ye the one in the tub looks okay, it's the other one.
mhm.
i like the other best as well, it's the peach one.
when are you going to prune them?
well, when i plant that other one where you want it planted, that's
i wonder when er john 's going to have the erm
wheelbarrow ready.
yes.
oh!
said in yesterday's paper that someone had had a wheelbarrow valued at thirty pounds stolen from a back garden and it was somewhere at kirk hill.
where the back gardens aren't particularly accessible.
so ours must have cost, i'm sure that would cost them a lot more than thirty pounds.
mm.
cos it didn't, it didn't say a wrought iron wheelbarrow or anything, it just said a wheelbarrow.
well those er four tapes 
so we'll have to get it
those four tapes, incidentally, i saw, you know the compil the bach, beethoven, mozart and tchaikovsky, i saw them for fifteen pound.
what four tapes?
the four, not tapes, compact discs.
the set of four that we sent so they were fifteen pound in there.
that who sent to you?
that shirley and gareth sent me for christmas.
ah ah!
the 
i wish you'd think of something you would like for your birthday.
i told you, i want a i would like a fiddle.
d'ya know i and you need binoculars to go to rome with.
take a couple of them.
well i can't see very well through binoculars.
the sistine chapel.
we mustn't take those big ones with us.
oh jim they're too heavy.
i know.
you,an easier camera .
it doesn't need a camera, it needs you!
new 
no it doesn't.
new camera
what's happened with that camera, you've 
you 
got to rewind it every time the better ones now automatically wind, that's what i mean.
you have never sat down and read 
you have to rewind it, it's a 
all the 
problem.
read all the instructions, the same with the video camera.
you haven't even watched the tape.
when have i had an opportunity to watch the tape?
oh!
you must have been able to squeeze half an hour sometime or other.
anyway, i'm going to get ready or we'll never get the shopping done before you go to work.
will we?
right, i'm ready.
have you locked the back door?
i thought we were walking?
no.
i thought we were walking?
no, it's alright.
are we not?
okay.
pardon?
i thought we were walking?
well do you want to walk or do you want to go in the car?
well i'll have to go to the paper shop.
well i'll drop you at the paper shop while i go round
oh.
that's a good idea.
i'll turn it.
i hope we can get out at the road end.
have you stuck a poster in, no you haven't, in the back window?
no, i haven't.
i think more people see the back
well i know, cos
coming up that way than they do the front window.
a lot of people go to now, more people 
yeah.
there, yeah.
so they'll see it 
yes.
both ways.
i'm gonna stick one in the back as well.
have i got my glasses with me or i can't see the prices.
oh!
i haven't got my purse.
oh well, brilliant!
is that a squashed ball in the road?
that means i haven't got a key to get back in the house.
if you just stop here i'll run over the road.
if you give me the key please.
thanks.
ooh!
there's a car wants to be in.
it's there.
sorry!
he didn't look very pleased did he?
if he was in a such a desperate hurry he could have gone down and gone over there.
we don't usually get a second post on a saturday.
we do, you get a parcel delivery.
oh yeah.
i've dropped my pen under your seat.
i'll get it when we sa unless you, have you got another one?
thanks.
have you seen kathleen, er katherine recently?
no.
i've just realized i haven't either, when i saw that woman crossing the road i thought it was her.
please let us out someone!
press the 
it wasn't
button somebody 
it wasn't them that was .
oh, thank you kind sir.
it wasn't what?
it wasn't the cars there it was the cars turning in that's stopping him getting out.
we need some sugar.
we've had no sugar all this week.
not that you've noticed.
i made the custard from er sugar cubes.
and i didn't know how lo how old the sugar cubes were.
right.
we got them when we packed up your mother's house.
right, where am i, i'll meet at er
co-op.
co-op.
okay.
better hu hurry up.
i can't get out any quicker.
see you later.
hello.
hello.
please.
and there was no erm television supplement, and no comic in the daily mirror this morning.
that's the second time in the past four weeks we've had missed that.
erm, i dunno.
there's seven only, oh that one.
seventeen.
seventeen.
aha.
that's three sixty four please.
sixteen forty eight.
thank you.
that's it, thank you.
there you go, the sixty five.
thank you.
thank you.
one sixty two.
thank you.
thank you.
you haven't given me the bits missing from the mirror.
well that's erm tt nothing i can do about that until asking for the mirror itself .
well i'm sorry but my daily mirror divi delivered this morning without the television supplement, and without the comic and i want 
the page of 
them.
the actual page?
the whole, the whole supplement that come on saturdays.
that was .
that part.
that part wasn't in?
this part was not in.
and there's usually a free comic as well and that wasn't in either.
and that's the second time in the past four weeks that those pieces have been missing from it.
tt.
well, take that paper there okay.
no, i don't need the whole paper, i've got the rest of it.
look, i cannae give you one out of there though.
well you're going to have to!
because 
i can't 
when i pay for a paper i want it to be complete, so i want that piece and i want that, that piece.
no, wait a minute, where is it?
which is the television?
can you take my eighty p for this so we can go.
alright.
ta.
what's that, sixty pence?
fifty.
where does it start?
that's forty change.
thanks a lot.
ta.
which is the beginning of this?
that's thirty six please.
there we are.
right.
right, so i've got the two pieces that are missing from my paper.
sorry.
and that's gonna be someone else's paper then?
well i've already paid for mine so i'm going to get 
well some, well someone'll pay for that.
so, well you'll just have to tell them that it's missing.
but when i've paid for a newspaper i expect all the pieces that i've paid for.
and i've already paid for mine, so this i'll take.
thank you.
hello.
alright?
i said to him .
hello.
hello.
that's 
a dona helps needy children and their communities abroad.
it drop 
oh.
drops wells with clean water and 
i'll support that.
things like that.
helps with education.
raises a lot of money through sponsorship.
aha.
a few people committing money every month.
will it go in?
yeah.
i'm sure it will.
thank you.
thank you.
thanks.
because we get no sun in this room whatsoever
oh.
of course 
yeah.
with the the bathroom
well, you said we could.
blocking it off.
er, we seem to have, you know, before 
let's enough light in.
before i was a gard er was a mo a gardener, and after i'd three years to the extent i can't.
you sound like me, i'm always moving 
who do you want me sign it as?
member or vice chairman?
vice chairman please.
that's
right.
would you like some coffee?
no thank you.
i'll er for years she's just come back and she's i said i want .
where's she been?
she's been down to .
oh!
i didn't know.
i 
yeah.
was talking to maurice yesterday.
she's act she er they've been down for a for a flying visit, i think,th they like to fly and fly back because it gets th the fre used to the freedom.
yes.
you get er rather tied up with looking after marcus and his sister.
well, yeah.
i know marcus and naomi is, is relatively easy compared with er
he's a lovely little boy isn't he?
yeah, that one er,wha th were all from, from the er they were all from the
urgh!
this coffee's 
cold.
except for the last one which i missed off the last time.
i, it went through alright, but er i've got a reminder this time so i i thought well
i will miss that one.
that er er,i information centre.
oh yes.
ah yes.
right well, have you 
that's it.
sorted anything out about the oranges?
aha.
yes.
erm i've got a letter saying that it's er th the mayor the is it sixteen, fifteen pounds worth of o of er
oranges.
oranges, is gonna be issued in the place we say that that er, er at two o'clock if it's wet we'll be in the
the pavilion.
oh!
which is, like, next door.
i had the rotaract, erm, they said they'd probably be, offered, er er, one of these castle things er jumping castles from .
oh!
did you see those on the news yesterday?
aye.
i see, yeah.
they can cause a lot of apparently.
adults and children
yeah.
injuries.
i fell off one the week before last at the soft play but it wasn't blown up quite enough.
oh i see.
and, as i ste 
well there's no carpet, he said there's just
well, there was 
there's a great you know the big heavy erm, foam thing, but it kept slipping away.
all the morning i kept pushing it back again.
aye.
yeah.
they 
er 
couldn't tell me i suppose.
and it a it had happened to of slipped away at that time and i went to step off, and, with it not being blown up properly that's how it just flattened and i went off sid i've still got a big bruise on my left knee!
well erm the only 
so i, i do not jump on any more.
the only trouble with that sort of thing i is, again if you ever get any wet on it because
mm.
mm mm.
oh well.
and, there's certainly some 
so the mayor's taking out the oranges?
and er 
so they've got, they've got it back now, so it's got nothing to do with us?
no, i don't suppose, thank you.
er
do you work?
no.
mm.
no, erm basically er i think for the anyhow trevor will be coming in, so we'll, we just st try and stay a little more to see what happens at the end.
but erm
see they handed it over to us and, but they didn't wanna you know, it was very when, what they call them?
erm
it was temple wasn't it,la last year?
aye, temple was but it, it was a good job because we had no oranges and they had to go and break in.
it's alright now .
yeah.
was that the year the oranges were horrible?
er
i've 
yeah.
they were seville oranges, i'm sure they were 
well they've, they've been nice.
seville oranges.
aye.
they've never been really nice.
yeah.
well i don't know where they're getting them from, but i mean, that's what they say.
well that year 
and they've got round table laid on to help and they want help from the from us.
so they want us to go around at half past one or the two of them can start cos we've got an addition .
well, it worked.
er, i'm just wondered, you know,wi with because they came to expect it and we, we didn't know.
and, they'd handed it over to us and then obviously they wanted it back, but then
well, i think it's like everything else, i think that er, with, with lawrence being off they're just sort of meeting everything as a crisis and getting, getting
well if you're at work 
yo you see as well to go with what you call them?
er,
he, he
didn't
he didn't want anything to do with it you see.
that's where and he's not from , he's not from this end so had er no real interest for him i don't think.
if you're at work dorothy could go if i help, i'll help with trevor with his triplets.
well you can go and get their oranges and the
yes, but it's, he, he couldn't possibly push that buggy
around that field.
but it isn't in the fields though.
it's up beside the 
it's, it's 
it, it's carlisle park.
oh!
that's 
because 
better.
because the, the, the pa the er
oh!
because of that lea 
the easter field is, is 
leaking 
it's got a .
yes.
so it can't be used.
right.
but i presume that we do turn out if we do it right in the middle.
well in actual fact, people who turned out were isobel and me, and er what they call him?
er, one who goes on?
er, from lonsdene?
er fred ?
fred 
no.
fred .
no, jack's not very well.
well i helped you one year 
oh yes.
cos there was only 
yes.
there was only you and somebody else.
well the year i was chairman.
th the, er the year i was wi i was chairman, we were both there.
there was one child came up about seventeen times 
oh yes!
i think.
erm, down, it was down here remember?
i know.
that was the year the oranges were horrible, maybe his mother was making marmalade.
the only thing about er is that the rotaract one tentatively mentioned about the .
well that's it.
i mean,th tha when we took it over we, we got that, cos people said well, you know, just dishing out the oranges wasn't there should be something organized so rotaract said they would do we said we would give the money towards the prizes.
so that they wouldn't hate us.
well when er, the, the, the, there's two words, the charter, and what's the other word?
there's two things to do with .
food and jar, that's right.
yeah.
well well barlen, barlen.
barlen and .
yeah.
yeah.
i can't say that properly.
those words aren't used where i come from .
and er, er 
mind, i use words that jim doesn't.
the, the rotaract er presents this year that they're towards, so he's been quite pleased.
mhm.
so they'll, they'll be done.
and round table it says, has laid on for the
well round table a er have never, that's the first time then?
we got 
well it's 
because, cos it's rotaract who's always
it must be the borough involved with the
mhm.
but i'm er
but they were keen.
i mean, i, they, they've, they've, they did work didn't they?
with, with the games and things when, when we were there.
yes.
and it was a reasonable day too
i know all the children.
i mean, we thought it'd rain this year so it's more 
yeah.
likely to be a better day then 
and ee, all the kids ended up with a prize didn't they?
oh, eventually, yes.
i mean,th the 
yeah they 
they were that had bigger to ones 
the winners got 
who supplied those then?
out of the money that we gave them.
oh!
the 
yes.
i see, it was, and that was what rotaract did?
yes.
yes.
they had big eggs, well, you know, sort of the 
aha.
smarties type egg so about so big 
for the prizes
ah.
and the others got little cadbury's 
ah.
creme eggs.
which remi reminds me, i've got to get some for all they spare children before 
yes.
well 
before they ran out.
it's surprising actually cos th the more, the more common ones do run out because of course th the other ones are a bit pricey.
the blooming creme eggs are on sale all the year round and then they run out at easter.
that's happened, i couldn't get any one year i took the triplets to the erm goose hill coffee morning in the town hall and i gave them all money for the tombola and one of them won a creme egg
but i persuaded him that it would melt while he had his drink and to put it in my bag and er it was lunchtime when we got home and we were going some i, i can't remember what we were doing afterwards so i gave it to his mother, i thought she could share it.
mind, by the time you'd shared a creme egg between those three and their older brother
yeah.
there's not much of it left.
no, but i could have seen a, there'd be an almighty tantrums from the other two if ji er
aha.
james had had it.
i can imagine.
mm.
mm.
is there anything much for the agenda for a week on tuesday?
not a great deal.
i mean, what i'll 
yeah.
do is we'll get rid of those couple of things left over
mhm.
and er basically, it's, peter's got the one coming which is er put the ducks in the river.
mm.
er, he's doing the, a, and what i'm er sug suggesting
aha.
like well apparently the fella that's done it, for years, and years, for years, for years has had a 
mhm.
and he's, he's just ke you know what i mean, i think he's, he's getting an extension so that's why there's a bit of delay on that.
mhm.
and it's where that lot meet .
i've been counting them since.
well how much, i mean 
i read the letter in the paper.
how much was he paying ?
it was summat like er i dunno, it was summat like five hundred pound a year.
it was quite modest.
mm.
er
there were thirteen 
but 
drakes cha er chasing one duck er, just past the baths along the promenade.
and then we sat at the far side of the old gate bridge and er an old lady came along and said, and she was counting them but she said, just look at that thing, she counted seven although, in actual fact, by then th these dra the seven drakes had stopped cha chasing the duck and they were all sitting down.
and a there was a domestic one in each group there was one along near the baths in among the thirteen, and there was another white one near old gate bridge.
i believe we've taken a decision on that for the health conference, last time round.
i've got one on page eighty-one, but we'll come to it on pollution control.
they're are some others too, chair, on the seminars and conferences we've listed.
we can do on the way through, okay.
i think there is no urgent business.
erm well, as i understand it there is a report on the authorization of officers, which is urgent business.
ah, that's right, sorry 
yes, chair, and i don't have copies and, you do?
well, i have some, i thought they'd gone round, but this is, erm sorry 
chair, it was one officer whom we've got on staff at the moment karen wheeler who's away nursing her new baby, and it's to authorize that officer to carry out certain roles under the health and safety 
can you circulate that, the committee is accustomed to seeing it.
i don't think it should cause you any problems, but it is something that's come on late erm as a result of maternity cover.
right.
ian waterhouse is with us, probably wondering how on earth these meetings get off the ground at all.
ian, you're the community services manager.
we have a paper from you on, can we settle down a bit.
we have a paper from you on page eleven.
can i ask you to limit yourself to some five minutes.
i apologize for that, that, but we have a very heavy agenda, and members start falling asleep around five, and if people have questions or comments, perhaps they .
welcome to our committee, and we hope we'll be working together in the future.
thank you, yes, erm thank you very much for inviting me to attend to those meetings and giving me the opportunity to meet you all.
having worked for a number of years now in community health services, previously erm in yorkshire, in fact i've only been down in oxford about four or five months, i've learnt how important it is in fact to make good working contacts with members and officers of other organizations, and particularly of local authority organizations.
i'm therefore doubly grateful to you for giving me the chance to meet you today, and i hope that some of the contacts i might make today will stand me in good stead in the job that i'm doing in oxford over the next year or so.
i have sent round a briefing paper, and rather than go right through that, what i'd just like to do is to highlight two or three things about myself and about the post that i now hold, and i would be pleased to answer any questions that you might have during the next two or three minutes.
firstly, just to set my own context, i've been in the health service now for just over twenty year.
i went into the service in nineteen seventy as a national trainee, and i'm therefore coming from the administrative branch of the service.
i'm not a qualified nurse, or a health care professional.
i'm an administrator by background, and i think that's interesting, because one of the things that we are trying to do in the health service is to open up our management posts to people of all professions, and to recognise that management is not the prerogative of any particular group, but that we're looking for the right people to manage our services from wherever they might come, and i'm one of three people who has a responsibility to the senior manager in the community at the top, for the managing on a day-to-day basis the health services in oxfordshire.
of those two colleagues, interestingly enough, one is a health visitor by background, the other is a nurse, but someone who practised or hasn't practised, but as a district health community planner for a number of years.
so you can see that we have quite a mixture of people in terms of our backgrounds professionally.
the purpose of general management is to try and ensure that in the city that we are getting the best value we can from the health resources that are in the city, and i have the authority now, and the responsibility to spend the budget that i've had allocated from the oxfordshire health authority, by gerald simon who's the general manager.
so a big change in the way that we are arranged has actually come about through the general management structure, and we're hoping that this will give us more room, if you like to start looking at priorities, and to move the budget around in accordance with our feelings about those priorities.
in that task i am assisted by a team of six managers, all of whom are professional nurses and district nurses or health visitors and they of course are there to advise me on professional issues, and to share with me the management task of using the resources of oxford city in the way that we feel is best appropriate, and in doing that, i think one of the important things for us to do, i don't think we do it quite as well as we should, is to work more closely with the local council, and to look really at what the needs of our local communities are for health, and to try and make sure that the feelings that might well be expressed by individuals, either individually, or through caring associations, or through other statutory agencies, or through voluntary health organisations, are actually given a chance to be there, and to influence our, that official policy and constituents , and to, to influence the planning process.
i've made a note of a potting of that briefing paper to you.
i personally see this is as one of my major objectives over the next year or so, and in a sense it makes me trebly grateful to be here today, because i hope some of the contacts i might make today will enable me to work alongside you in what might be called even local berkshire band, and to try and get more a multiplicity of views from different organisations channelled through our own value objectives.
and it is the exciting part of my job is to make these links work, start to build on them, and over our links in the city on the environmental and group with tony benn , that's that's doing a very good job, he is a platform for this, for each other, but i think there's a lot more we can do locally erm within the city to build those links, and to work together for better answers for the city, and i hope that, on a practical level, one of the things that interested me was your grants team for local organisations, and i would like to think myself here today, we might look at the health authority, and try to join with them to make some erm practical contribution, particularly to those many carers, and groups of people who have problems, and we're not all just professionals best able to put over during our normal nine-to-five or eight-to-eight days, we we can.
there's a lot we can do, i think, to help the community in a wider sense, and i see that as one of the key elements of my work, to try and make that work.
and i'm not too concerned with the day-to-day management of individual professionals, i've got a team to help me do that.
what concerns me is looking at the and trying to forge new creative links with other organisations, statutory and voluntary, in the best health interests of oxfordshire residents.
that i think is my main concern, with a request in a sense to you for supporting that over the next year or so, because i'll be trying to perhaps get invited to the meetings, and perhaps we'll be inviting officers from the authority to join me in looking at ways of building up that local context in planning to get that into our formal planning systems.
that will be my key message, and the other thing i'd like to emphasise today, and i'd be very grateful for some sort of early response to that.
i have discussed it with dorothy tomkin i think we have a genuine desire to move to a more authority-based planning system, erm, we haven't got the methods of doing that yet, and i turn to c b s and to local authority and to the traditional carers for them to join us in that.
so thank you for giving me the chance to, to air that view.
there are means to get a response and i'm grateful to take the temperature of the water.
right.
the temperature of the water will inevitably be variably, and i'm sure we certainly welcome, lots of people will welcome your philosophical position.
i would say just two things; the one on the rates scheme, we certainly as a health committee distribute fifteen thousand pounds a year and treat these as important pledge by work.
we can't deliberately do not maintain those voluntary groups which we feel are appropriately and better funded by the health authority.
the health authority has for years not shown any signs of so doing, i have to say.
i don't want to be cynical at this stage, but years of experience that show that the health authority has no intention of doing that.
and the other thing to say to from me is yes, we would love a multiplicity of views to go to the district health authority, i and my predecessor betty stanford, who were district council members on that health authority, we were there and able to listen to and able to contribute to the debate, the government white paper has taken us off, so that is not a good start in terms of how you involve the city and the district with the policy decisions of the health authority.
so that's my bit of bad news.
i can see arthur, betty and liz.
chairman, may i first of all declare an interest in this.
erm under the new erm system erm every g p must at some time during the visit erm persons over seventy-five.
now, what are you doing to ensure that erm that this is carried out because a lot of elderly, they will not go to the doctor, but erm the doctor i believe has got to go and see them.
now, what are you doing to really see this is getting off the ground?
well, i 
ian, can i ask you to save the questions and respond at the end, otherwise you'll find the discussion takes much longer, is that alright?
although that may not be appropriate view of that, but, betty?
i was going to raise the very question you raised.
there we were as representatives of this city, people who are in contact with erm people who have got problems, we were 
can you press your button, betty?
in my view thrown off without any reasonable excuse, because i felt that i could bring a lot of expertise to the health authority.
they may not have thought of it as expertise, but when people said to me a particular ward is dirty, i went and looked at it, and in a very short time, within about ten minutes, that ward had got a massive clean-up team in there, that's the sort of thing that i felt was useful.
that being said, i mean, you've lost now local, local erm expertise there.
what i want to ask is, firstly, who are you funded by, and these teams, i note erm paragraphs three erm these nurses and so on, are they existing staff, or is this a new team, erm management team which has been set up at yet more expense to the health authority?
so, basically, i want to know are they taken from erm a team which is already in the health service, or are they new posts funded, and funded by whom, bearing in mind the constant complaints we get from the health authority about lack of funds?
thank you, betty.
liz?
thank you.
i'm finding myself somewhat confused, i mean, i was interested that ian had mentioned the practical voluntary services as one of the groups that he would wish to work with.
i think that recently we seem to have had such, so many changes in the health authority, so many different peoples in the post who all seem to be doing the same sort of thing, who've got the family health services authority set up, but it would seem to me that some of the things that are on this piece of paper are things that i understood were being done by the family health services authority.
we have a joint planning officer, and we've got quite a lot of joint erm of joint planning going on between the voluntary sector and the health authority and the social services.
we've got a whole erm, a whole erm organisation that in fact the council for voluntary service only this week made an appointment with a very, very, very, very small amount of money that's been made available on a very, very part-time basis, to actually assist with that, with the planning that's going on in the voluntary sector.
and i think that we're constantly hearing about new people, new systems of working.
erm new people who are being put in posts to liaise and to do this, that and the other, with a shrinking voluntary sector.
with a voluntary sector that is erm constantly needing small amounts of resource in order to deliver an enormous amount of service to vulnerable people.
and i think that the time will come some point, when the voluntary sector will say, ‘well, we actually don't have time to talk erm to carry on talking about what we're doing and how we're doing it.
we actually much prefer to get on with what we're there to do, and to, to offer services, to find, to find ways of supporting vulnerable people.
so, i think my questions are, one, where does this post fit in the family health services authority?
two, how does it fit in with the joint planning officer who's also ready in post?,
three, how will it fit in with all the locality planning and all the work that's already been done in joint planning between the voluntary sector and the local authority and the health authority.
thank you very much, liz.
we'll keep you going all afternoon at this rate, won't we ian.
i've seen anne and nonnie and i don't particularly want to see anybody else.
i'm glad liz is confused because as one of her predecessors i'm also confused.
i mean, you know, we've lived with this planning.
there's always been planning with the people on planning, and it seems to me that the paragraph that begins ‘a key area’, we've got some more planning.
and i think really what's needed is actually going out, i mean, it could be a useful new thing that, a new departure that other people haven't done.
in other words not sitting there and asking people to, erm people in authority, erm sort of people of influence, ask them what they think, but actually going out and visiting people and groups, and i was going to ask whether this would be copied to the women's sub-committee, because there are many, many groups of women who never have a chance of saying what they really want, and i don't mean patients, i mean potential users of the health service.
erm the health service has been very much male-orientated.
i'm very glad to see that there's quite a lot of nurses here, and i presume that quite a lot of those are women nurses, and i think that this is terribly important, and i think a useful thing with this new service could do is to go out and talk for instance to the meetings of women's organisations, to old peoples' clubs in the afternoon, and actually ask people what they would like, and get them talking in a nice informal way, rather than waiting for somebody to let them know what they think, because i don't think they're going to get it.
so, i think that would be a useful thing for a new planning section to do.
erm my ears pricked up when mr waterhouse did in fact say, i though he said that it wasn't necessarily help in monetary terms, but some of these people might be willing to help in kind, or in sort of helping as people with some voluntary organisations, and i think, if that was what he meant, i think there again that might be very useful, because voluntary organisations are always looking for people to help.
so those are my few comments, thank you.
thank you anne.
nonnie?
as someone who has to ask occasionally for a care package for an individual, do i take it then the penultimate paragraph that this is the planning, you know, how you're going to produce a care package for an individual, this is what you refer to in the planning system, and that you're getting together with social services to get this care package together?
yes, okay?
would you like to tackle that lot in the best way you can?
thank you, yes, erm to take the final point in terms of care packages, yes, are officers are working on, social services officers, on the professional care assistant care packages.
yes, but at what level?
do you yet know at what level that's going to be organised?
i don't know.
you don't know, so that's part of the planning system that we're working on?
the working groups are currently on working on that, and they, my colleagues i assume are talking to the the officers of the social services about that, what is happening, but the final outcome has yet to appear.
just answering the first question on assessment of the over seventy-fives, that in fact really should be better left for the to say.
i'm not part of the organisation.
they have a responsibility for managing the u g b contract, and you quite rightly said that one of the arguments on that contract, assessments of the over seventy-fives.
i belong to the community oxford health authority not to the family health services authority, so that's just to clarify that, that did cover two questions that i was asked.
in terms of primary health care teams, they are existing members of staff, or health visitors attached to general practices, and we call that collaboration if you like .
in terms of a planning process anne was talking about, you'll have to forgive me for being relatively new to oxfordshire and coming from an area where we had a planning system which was largely the one i was describing, and the planning role that i saw i wanted to develop was very much already mentioned which was actually going round to small groups of people, to the local caring groups on a much more informal basis, and getting their contribution about that and then feeding it back into the system, which you say is there in a sense.
i don't think it's rooted firmly enough in the localities.
and it's that part of the jigsaw that i want to concentrate on.
so if there's anything, there's a slightly different approach to it, and one thing that we are being urged to do, through the very way in which you mentioned in another context, is to make sure that facilities are appropriate locally, and developing policies within that.
i don't make any apologies for that, and maybe it is going over the old ground, but unless we do it, unless we try to do it, if we've done it the way before been and it hasn't produced what we, what we want, then surely it's not for us to sit back and say, ‘well, it's been through that and it hasn't worked’, surely we ought to try again, and that's what i hope to be doing, sort of value your support and see you .
yes, can i say to you that what you're hearing is members' experiences of the past.
mhm
i'm not sure that you'll be able to uncover dinosaurs as it were.
well, no, but i 
but of course in terms of partnership, you will have our support and any way we can aid and abet you then we shall do that, erm but you can tell from the questions and comments that we have some distress about the 
yes, i get that, yes 
ian, thanks ever so much, it's not necessarily been an easy ride for you, but we're glad to know you and we look forward to meeting you again.
yes, well, i hope so, we can sort of work it out.
i'm sure of it.
thank you very much indeed.
bye
thanks, bye bye.
you can stay of course!
don't blame you!
can i just draw your attention to your item on urgent business.
do you all have sight of that?
it's headed up ‘appointments and authorization of officers’ and you're asked to authorize stephen stansfield, a non-professional health technician, as detailed in para.
2, it's a very normal and routine bit of work for you.
are you agreed?
agreed.
so that we can get on with this work.
thank you very much indeed.
on to item six and seven.
you'll remember we do this on an annual basis.
it's very efficiently organised for us to do.
we've got keith dryer here, i think, of the engineers.
keith, would you like to press your button and introduce us to item six, street collections in oxford.
thanks, chair.
basically, the latest, and i mustn't take any credit, and there seemed to be some credit, chair.
this lady on my right, katherine powell, does all the hard work and committee reports, and i thought it only fair to bring her here today, because she's the person that does the set fifty-threes,
she does?
she's one of the members you can come to.
so katherine can answer the details on the report.
right.
welcome, katherine.
i didn't realize that's who you are.
i'm the one who'll always be late getting a reply back on the set fifty threes!
so katherine, do you want to say anything on the report at this stage?
i'd just like to point out that erm on the street collections as you've always done before, avarag and novasports don't generally get passed, because they don't actually help anybody in oxford.
right
that's the only thing i'd like to bring to your attention.
so, you can confirm for us that novasports are still in that position, and i think some of us understand the nature of avarag.
yes, erm they've got a sports centre in nottingham, and that's the nearest thing they've got to oxford.
thank you for saying that to us, yes, i wouldn't have actually picked it up.
chair, can i just ask, i mean, so it's organisations that are oxfordshire rather than oxford city.
yes.
that's tended to be our line.
they've not been tested solely on that, but it's on the question.
well, unless people have specific to katherine, as i say it's presented in such a way, this report, that essentially we're asked to agree the number of permits to match the number of applications.
i would suggest to the committee on page sixteen on our recommendations that we do make the point about avarag and novasports, just in terms of consistency, and i would expect you to want to continue to do that.
so does that mean we still grant twenty-three saturday city centre permits?
that doesn't alter that position, katherine?
no, well, it will go down to twenty-one.
quite.
could i ask on page seventeen about blue cross?
we have got erm some organisations, the ones i can think of is the animal sanctuary that we are all familiar with.
erm i, does blue cross have any connection with oxfordshire?
yes, they've got a farm in burford.
ahh.
can i ask that you agree on eight one a to grant them twenty-one saturday city centre permits, and you're clear that you've left out novasports and avarag, and you understand why?
graham?
i have a great deal of sympathy with all these organisations anyway, and the tremendous number of volunteers that come out on the days.
i'm just wondering whether in fact every saturday that you've got, bearing in mind this is not flag days, this is in the street.
yes, these are street collections.
that we really are putting a tremendous number of people on the street over the course of the year, erm that the general public are facing.
and while i think we ought to do what we can, i think there's a line which ought to be drawn, and i do honestly wonder whether twenty-one, it was eighteen last year, and i just wonder if perhaps we should erm try and switch some of these to mid-week, so that we're not seeing it virtually every saturday of the year.
okay, betty?
i just wanted to say to you, firstly i declare an interest in oxrad, not pecuniary, of course, with money, however, but it is on behalf of charities, it is the only way they can generally raise some two three hundred pounds in a day, or sometimes a little more, that is a tremendous help to charities.
and i think that erm twenty-one is nothing like too many, in fact that's not even half a year.
it doesn't mean that in fact that erm that there are twenty, my maths are right, that does mean that there are thirty one 
thirty-one.
where there is not a collection, i think that's perfectly reasonable.
well, of course, there's flag days as well .
yes, well then we're also making provision for disaster funds coming up, emergency funds.
can i say that we are now organising quite tightly the business of street collections, and i think if committee are minded to reduce the number of collections that we allow, we should decide that before we come to this meeting, because i think it's very difficult in practical terms to do it at this stage, and therefore i would suggest that we do agree twenty-one, not withstanding what graham said, we can take on board some of what he said, and maybe the month before we are asked to take this decision, we have an item on the agenda where we discuss the principle before we get down to the practicalities.
would that suit you for the time being, graham?
i think so, it made me feel that some actually seem to be quite keen to have suburban or mid-week, even though they've had city centre ones in the past.
some clearly want to switch to city centre.
but i did think that it might just ease the pressure on saturdays, because, following what erm betty has said, in fact, as i make it it's forty-five saturdays out of fifty-two, and bearing in mind bank holiday weekend, christmas and that sort of thing, it's virtually every saturday in the city centre there is a collection.
now that's fine, but i know some people who are in the city centre every, on saturday, feel very guilty if they're not constantly giving, and i do think we want to get that balance.
clearly we want to support the charities, and the organisations but erm.
i was just going to make a quick comment if i may on oxfam, because i noticed that they're down for the street collections and for the flag day, now next year's their fiftieth anniversary, so i think it's quite appropriate next year, but i do, my own view is, that we will get, we ought to get one comprehensive list of all these organisations, for both the street collections and the flag days, with an indication in the column of whether it's flag day they've gone for or a street collection, so that we can identify that sort of situation.
right, i mean, that seems quite sensible actually.
i would just like to point out that suburban and mid-week flag day erm street collections alternate with the city centre the following year.
that was committee decision a number of years ago.
right, anne.
i think there does come a point when there is resistance.
i mean, we all know that having to shake tins, the number of people who go past by on the other side, and i think that we do have to be careful with the numbers, and even those people who normally give do get a bit fed up if there are too many.
so what i thought was that it was quite important to look at all these organisations that do seem to me really to have nothing to do with oxford or oxfordshire, and that we should be very careful.
now, if we are going to, for instance, allow i mean there's one organisation, number five, which says it's a national, although it's called cherwell round table, which says it's just a national body raising funds for numerous charities.
now, if we're going to allow an organisation like that, have we no erm chance to say that after they've had their collection, we should like to have some indication of what percentage went to oxford, so that when they apply again, we can at least know whether this is actually a genuine local organisation or national.
and a lot of these organisations, it's very difficult, because there are many that a lot of people are in favour of, like, well, take king george's fund for sailors and so on , but how do we know, i mean, there might be two people they might help in oxford over the course of the year.
i do think it's a difficult one, but i do feel there is a limit to the number, and therefore we should be careful that the ones we agree to are the ones that interest local people.
right.
i think we certainly agree with you in terms of locality, and it's open to you at any time, i would have thought, to be in touch with katherine, and say, ‘would you follow up on x or y’.
i think if the committee did that then we'd be back to what five or six years ago, when a whole afternoon was spent on that and i wouldn't commend that to you, but can we perhaps have a word with the officers at a later stage, take it on board what both graham and anne have been saying, and obviously not trying to do that in a meeting like this but try to prepare for it a month before-hand.
is that reasonable at this stage?
yes
so we can get progress?
chair, could i make, could i suggest maybe that in future when you ask organisations you make it harder for getting a license for street collection, that you tell them that you'll want to know exactly the proportions, but i mean put it back on to them, rather than be you having to bother to it in the future.
right, is that not done?
it is to a degree, on the application form that each charity receives, it has to state whether it collects for people in the oxford area, but not as a percentage.
i think that, more, not sort of say a general question like that, but say that after the collection has happened that you want returns for the number of people in oxford that have benefited from the number of groups in oxford that have benefited.
i mean, i think a lot of national organisations that are giving, i trust that are giving money to people actually do want to know that sort of detail about where the money is going, because, if i go through this, i mean, i would have to say that i should imagine that a very small percentage of the money that has been collected on these flag days will actually get back into oxfordshire.
i mean, my knowledge of the organisations that are there tells me that.
i mean there's organisations like oxrad that clearly, the money will only be spent in oxford city.
and the bit about it is that there may well be other small organisations that might, erm be better, erm i mean, have, might benefit people more in oxford city, or in oxfordshire, aren't getting in because 
no, that's not the case, it's open to them to apply in any event.
i know, but what i mean is that when they see the city centre, the people who are walking up and down the city centre, they see all the national charities, they don't necessarily feel that they're organised in the same way and therefore that they should be participating, and the whole palaver of getting a licence and applying is actually quite difficult, it's not a simple, it's not something, we get numerous telephone calls in the office saying ‘well can i go out next saturday and rattle a tin for such-and-such’, and you say ‘well, you can't’, and it's left much too late, so that people don't know about the way you get licenses to rattle tins in city centre.
don't know about the issues to do with house-to-house collection.
are we getting, erm collecting erm in the shopping centres.
they just don't actually have that information, a lot of small local groups, and i think maybe the c b s could work with the engineers department in future years and try to get to those groups, because i'm sure a lot of them, actually if they were given the opportunity in time to get in, that, that you might have a lot of people applying for flag and whatever than you do now.
well, by all means, let's do that, and has been represented in committee for some time, we have responsibility for licenses for some time, and if there isn't a dialogue now, then there'll be a good reason why there isn't, and i, i take what you say, liz.
but certainly, if we have something like fifty applications, then we'd be into a much more complex procedure.
we can see why we don't, and i'm not clear about the reasons why we don't, but there you are, michael.
chair, another query about a couple of the comments made just now, about priority being given to organisations which disclaim their proceeds in oxford or oxfordshire.
i had a cheque for some thirteen hundred pounds raised by the local branch of national body, a body like round table, although it wasn't round table, it was another body like that, and that will buy thirteen houses in everland in southern india.
well, not a single penny will be spent in oxford or oxfordshire.
now, am i to take it that sort of appeal will have a very low priority, i mean, how about oxfam for example?
oxfam doesn't have a low priority, clearly, erm there are, certainly we have an s.o fifty-three procedure for disasters and so forth.
but there isn't a direct slot, michael, you're right, for a project such as the one you've just described.
i mean, maybe what i'm hearing from the committee is that we take it back and look at the criteria and the ground rules.
i just would suggest that we don't do it in this committee.
but what we certainly can do is take note of what you've said, and ensure that we get it together for you to be consulted before we take decisions next year.
graham, you've had two bites, and i really 
i was only going to agree with you actually, and i was just going to back-up what michael said, and say that obviously we've got people like amnesty international, and i know it's a very hard-working local branch, but obviously, the money it's raised is going to benefit people overseas.
hopefully so, hopefully we haven't got people within the city of oxford that need amnesty's help!
right, can i leave you then to the recommendations on page sixteen, notwithstanding all of the suggestions and comments that have been made, that we this year grant twenty-one saturday city centre permits, and the officers are clear twenty-one and not twenty-three, that we grant eleven city centre, mid-week and suburban permits, and do you note that whoever is unsuccessful in obtaining saturday city centre permit will be granted one of those and given priority.
yes?
will you agree to grant three band collection permits, which you've done before, which are usually great fun, i must say.
and d is part of what michael is saying, it gives the chair, vice-chair, opposition liaison member the discretion to allow for usually natural disasters, and we would obviously want that discretion with your support.
there's one final thing, and that is on page fifteen at the bottom, it's a list of organisations which were given permits for st michael the northgate.
and i'm not quite sure why age concern, which has had this for i think at least twenty years for their christmas carols, which is not included.
but i don't, the fact that they're not included does not mean that they can't have it, because that would be disastrous, because they do rely on that 
it doesn't, they just haven't requested it this year.
well, i mean, that is absolutely nonsense, it's tradition, i'm sure they'll have it.
can you take that up with age concern, anne?
there's a limit as to how much we can do for half the people in this committee are members 
but you see it's inaccurate anyway, because it's five two during nineteen ninety five, and they had it 
this year
they did for last year.
i mean, it's for christmas this year that we want it.
well, can you get them together with katherine fairly rapidly, is that a good idea?
i mean, there's enabling and enabling, isn't there for heaven's sake.
chair, on the recommendations erm on item d, i'm a bit unhappy about the use of the term ‘natural’ disasters, because i believe that many of the disasters that people in oxford are actually giving money for are man made disasters, particularly matters of international economics and the unfair burden, erm unfair distribution of wealth which places a whole sector of the world in poverty, and i think, you know, you do get a magnificent response from people in oxford to these charities, and we must be aware that there are a whole number of greater issues involved, and while i hear what you're saying earlier on about you can't take on the problems of the whole world, i think when people are actually giving money to charities for example, like oxfam, they are often unaware of these issues, and we do have a wider role in making the, joining with organisations like oxfam in spreading public awareness on these issues.
right, i agree with that, and i think that we'll simply leave out the word ‘natural’ in future, won't we.
have we agreed that as a committee?
indeed, we have all agreed, i take it the recommendations under eight one in order that we can make progress.
which left the word in?
so that we can report back, a month before decision time next time round?
are you happy with that?
item seven then is on page twenty-seven.
this is flag day, which essentially means house-to-house.
is there anything you want to say about that, katherine at this stage?
no, it's quite straightforward.
right, the only comment i have is members will remember that we got slapped in council last year because we issued a permit to life for a flag day application.
i sat down with life and worked through their philosophy, erm in line with our own as it were, and they agreed, and i would ask them to agree this year that any paperwork or any leaflets they distribute make it very clear that a choice remains for a woman in terms of whether or not she should have an abortion, because life is fairly, yes, michael?
did you check their tenancy agreement, because it was a pretty machiavellian, dickensian tenancy agreement, if you're found smoking in bed for example, you were out the next morning, those sort of things, and i think you really ought to look at that very carefully.
we certainly did last year, there's no reason why we can't monitor it again, so they know we are watching them quite carefully.
that might have been for very good environmental and health reasons.
yes, i should hope so.
i think i would commend life to you, but it will be with the same conditions and terms as we did last year, with which they did comply.
are there other questions of queries on flag days or are you happy to approve them as they stand.
that's on page twenty-seven, six one, twenty four flag day permits to be approved, and we allow the officer to decide how they will best be distributed across the city.
are you happy with that?
and then on six two, do you wish to grant a permit to allow a flag day to take place on one or two days during nineteen ninety-one, for the royal british legion?
can i have someone move something on that, please?
yes, i'd move that erm they'd be granted two days.
i'll second that.
and you'll second that, cross-party approach to this, are you all agreed?
thank you very much indeed.
can i ask, i know we've got amanda root here, who's going to help us in the health action area report, i also know that she has an ailing child, can we then take the item eleven, health action areas now on page fifty-eight, so that we can let amanda go back to her commitments.
the joint report from amanda and phil.
amanda, do you want to kick off on this?
thank you chair, erm many of you will perhaps know that the health authority did some pioneering work looking at different standard mortality ratios in different wards in oxfordshire, and came up with some rather disturbing evidence that some of the wards had significantly higher incidents of death for people primarily in the forty-five to sixty-four age range than others, and phil and myself wish to continue that work by targeting those wards with a range of measures designed to alleviate some of those health inequalities.
and in this report, we've just outlined a very preliminary start to what we're doing.
we'd obviously, we'd like to get the agreement of this committee to continue that work and to take it up to the various bodies and consultation.
and, erm to develop it there's a timetable in the appendices about the progress we envisage making.
we'd like to confirm by the end of this year which wards we're targeting and how we're targeting them, which range of erm measures that we're going to undertake.
is that we've been involved in health strategy for the past over five years.
the ultimate test of any health in the city strategy is what we do about the health divide.
we have to do something about the equity target.
and that's extremely difficult to do something about the equity target, since national policy, the distribution of income, housing policy, all the things that we tackle on this committee and committees of the council have a very significant effect on the health of the people who live in the city, and it's not in our control.
nevertheless, it's our belief that through health promotion programmes which involve cooperation with communities themselves, that we can in fact do as much as we possibly can do to actually alleviate some of the erm differences in health status.
so our belief is that erm with the relationship we've been able to build up in this city, with confrontation and community participation, with the targeting of the small resources that we do have, as a council in collaboration with the other, the resources of the other bodies, that we can in fact do something.
so i'll do this and i think amanda would agree with this that this is the ultimate test that will help us in establishing can we actually do something about target one of the world health organisation, which is to narrow the health divide.
that's out test.
i would also add to that that i think such work would help us in terms of targeting more effectively the existing resources we have in terms of service delivery.
are there any questions?
sheila?
chair, i'd like to ask amanda, i did st clements and petersfield .
is there any possibility of, in the near future of doing a council estate, like barton or blackbird leys?
erm yes, certainly, i, i would suggest east and st clements because they have got quite high ethnic populations, and we can perhaps be hoping to start there, because environmental health's already worked there, targeting some of the multi-occupation properties, so they've got a very high proportion of black people living there, which means that they're also quite important in the sense of deprivation, but, i mean, we are also very conscious that we should be working on a council estate, and what we, what i would like to do is to simultaneously be starting working in erm a particular sets of communities, is to be given work in consultation in other wards, so that you know, six months down the line before .
but thanks for the point, and i mean, i'll make a note of that and take it up to the health authority.
betty and then ruth.
i'm a little surprised, chair, i could ask amanda, but erm, iffley is erm on the list, bearing in mind, recalling the erm point figures, where iffley are if i recall correct was fairly well down on the league table, and marston was something like erm six or some place.
erm what connection is there between unemployment and deprivation?
thank you.
erm i agree, and i actually think these figures are relatively crude, but i mean, there is, clearly there are correlations between low income, which most i mean unemployed people have of course got, and ill health.
but certainly, something like iffley's relatively surprising, it could well be, it might be because there's quite a high proportion of retired people or something, so the figures are actually distorted.
erm what, what we're hoping is that erm the university's undertaking some research to actually look at the links between very small geographic areas, postcode in fact, and ill health.
so when that research becomes available, we'll actually be able to be much, much more specific about where we're targeting, because i agree it's, you know, some of these are somewhat surprising.
nonnie
yes, in one five, erm they're practising notes from eynsham it does happen to be in cherwell ward and not north ward, erm there is a booklet out about health and housing in cutteslowe, and i wondered what the connection between, you know, not being on this committee, but these health action areas, and what in fact is happening in housing, because the director did assure me that other wards were going to be treated to the same erm treatment.
so i don't know whether that is what's referred to?
hang on, can i just check out your question, certainly we've taken the cutteslowe health and housing audit to this committee, and so has housing 
yes, yes, but that's not going to be the only one, as i understand it.
that was an external one in fact 
yes, is that's what's being referred to erm by the university work, because i think it's 
it isn't actually
is that so?
it isn't.
the other question i've got is presumably all this is still being done within what we've got in the budget, or is it, are there going to be extra bids?
you know the answer to that question, non, there's going to be no extra bids.
no extra bids.
this particular section's taken some slices already, so we'd better watch what we say to them.
they're doing it within their own time and resources, but it does seem to me to be a very appropriate area for michael?
thank you
it's certainly will be difficult, chair, but in answer to mrs tidley, what's happening to our housing, the answer is we've stopped building it.
government policy we don't build any housing, and therefore we've got five thousand on the waiting list, and that's why health is a major problem for a lot of people in this city, because we're not building any houses, she knows that, and she and her party do nothing about it.
we're doing an awful lot in 
thank you, gerald.
yes, well, i particularly welcome this erm concentration on areas, i think it's an excellent idea, particularly in relation to housing, i think what we will find interesting is that a whole number of oxford citizens, perhaps indeed from barton, blackbird leys, marston originally, who are badly housed in these areas and waiting in the most appalling accommodation for the opportunity of a council home.
and i'm sure that this report on the health action area is going to show some fairly, erm give us some fairly staggering erm revelations about about the health of oxford citizens that's going to surprise people at large when they find out how badly people have fared over the past ten years when we've had the tories in office who've really done their very, very best to make the health divide of this country in a very poor state.
hear, hear
thank you, anne
sorry i was going to go down to get an authorization from age concern, i missed the first bit, but erm if resources are allowed for this work, would it not be better to aim them at priority areas, and not wards, i mean, in other words, to put it to the areas that needed most.
i mean a ward is going to be seen as rather a big area, when within wards there are priority areas.
that was really my point.
i don't think i'll bother to answer the remarks that others need to say of course tremendous resources have gone into the health service over the past few years, but i think whatever government is in power, it will never be enough for all the new developments in the health service, and that is always the trouble, whoever would be there would find it difficult.
erm your comment on wards, i think this is a way of the officers giving us something to work on and take a decision on.
once they have a decision to work, then i would doubt very much actually they're going to be into every corner of st clements and east, or ignoring council estates altogether.
we have to allow them to take some decisions within our decision, i think, but i'm sure they'll take your point anyway.
diana, and then we ought to come to a decision.
yes, i'm sure, i mean we obviously all appreciate the fact that within wards there's an area of deprivation and an area that isn't deprived.
i mean, many, many wards, but that doesn't mean that we should therefore ignore a ward because it's got an area that is not deprived, you've got the, i think that by choosing east and st clements as areas, that they seem then quite sensible areas to start with, nice central, fairly central location.
i was going to say, when it comes to paragraph five, do you erm suggest that you actually think in terms of church organisations, they're not mentioned, and i look forward in in paragraph seven one to the seminar, the working seminar that's going to be in the near future, and i hope that we'll soon get a date, so that we can get it in our very busy diaries, in the hope that we can come along and learn more about this.
thanks very much, diana.
could we add mosques as well to the churches, please?
i'm sorry, i should have said all religious groups.
all religious groups !
can we come to a decision there please.
yes, just on the sub-ward level, of course there's really, there's a lot more investigations to go into targeting the resources, just i mean to target them in a city by having these standard mortality ratios for wards, but they're all below ward level, and target the specific areas.
erm that's one point, the other point is of course, we have already targeted of course in working with the groups that we've defined as erm ones whose health status is at risk in effect, so this is a supplement, this is actually translating those targets we have already defined into a locality planning exercise.
so we're testing, those priorities are still holding for us that but we're applying them to the localities.
thanks very much.
can i direct you then to page sixty-one, recommendations in paragraph eight.
you're asked to support the general move, that we have set out from this report, and you're asked to agree to st clements and east ward, and i think we've heard mandy and phil acknowledge that there may well be a case for looking at an area of council housing, which we will leave them to do, and also to approve the set of objectives, which i particularly welcome, on page sixty-two and sixty-three, which will amount to a work programme, which i would have thought we were all very pleased to see.
can we endorse that, and ask the officers to come back to us and keep us in touch with their work.
are you agreed?
thanks very much indeed, thank you both, and i .
we need to move somewhat quickly, and i am reminded that, i did see caroline come in, but we have two people who've come in connection with item fifteen, community concerns in east oxford, are you agreed that we take that now, so that they can 
i think it ties in very well with the item we've just discussed.
thank you, graham.
item fifteen, and shereen has just arrived as well.
caroline and your visitor, would you like to join us at the table, if you want to join in.
so we're turning to page seventy-five.
the paper is in fact written by shereen.
i don't want you to think, caroline that we are acquitting you rapidly, i will try to acquit you rapidly, but i am also delivering what you've come for.
well, thank you, chair, for inviting me here.
erm do you want me to speak to this 
please do.
caroline morrell, from ocadu, do you want to press your button, caroline, so that everybody will please sit down normally and naturally, and maybe moved a bit closer to you, they'll pick up what you're saying.
erm but i raised this at the alcohol forum, because erm sometime this summer i had a phone call from mr bailey here, who is a resident of east oxford, to express his concern about various problems erm in east oxford, problems that were posed to residents there.
erm i think in fact it would be better to ask mr bailey to explain what his concerns were erm i'd just like to say first although initially it revolves around problems of drinking, i'm looking at other issues of east oxford, in that recently there's been a great deal of concern about glue sniffing in sections there, and there have been various letters from residents in the local newspapers, and i think there's a general level of problem for people living in east oxford, and it's not just that the people there want the streets cleaned up or whatever, they want something constructive and helpful to be done for people.
so 
welcome, would you like to take two or three minutes to talk to us about your concerns.
right.
i should say first how this matter arose.
it arose because some neighbours in my street effectively started behaving which was totally antisocial.
there was a small group of young people who, as it happens were also associated with the bed-and-breakfast on iffley road, erm and several of them had moved between this house and the bed-and-breakfast.
their activities ranged throughout the day and night and reached a peak of basically making a noise nuisance of themselves, there were other troubles which i will mention later, in which they would be playing two or three different sound systems, and at its worst, a full drum set in the early hours of the morning, obviously keeping their near neighbours not only awake but in a state of some anxiety.
i live directly opposite to them, and there were two of their neighbours who effectively unable to carry on a normal life throughout most of the time that they were there.
this was taking place on five or six nights until early mornings a week for several hours.
eventually a noise abatement notice was served on them, and erm immediately after that the landlord offered them a hundred pounds to leave, and they left.
he did that because they had not only annoying his neighbours, sorry, their neighbours, because he had once been one of our neighbours, but also they had damaged his house, and they had already cost him probably about two hundred pounds in repair bills until the house itself, broken doors, window erm the wall, and bit of the roof and so on, and there was every reason to believe that this would just carry on.
now, erm i think i should make clear that i have some personal feelings on this, and i just want to say something very briefly about my neighbours, something i actually don't agree with .
erm there is a general concern i think with multiple occupancy that there's, a whole way of life of east oxford is changing, and not for the better, and indeed i was part of this when i moved into the area ten years ago.
erm and the, a lot of this was not specific to drug or alcohol abuse but simply to multiple occupancy.
and we've now reached a situation in which there's something over twenty percent of our streets is multiple occupation, erm and this is noise and other activities in relation to that are the things that cause the sort of low level of concern, and this was just the peak on top of that of major aggravation.
erm i think there are one or two of the elderly tenants in particular who felt really very anxious about activities at night time, and they're going to have their property stolen, or things thrown at their house.
i mean these people, there's things like throwing broken milk bottles, throwing milk bottles into peoples yards, removing bicycles, picking up my bicycle, as it happens, and throwing it down several times, erm going down the streets playing a sound system full volume at two o'clock in the morning, which generally left people feeling they didn't know what was happening.
this was only part of a general sort of pattern as it were, where people were beginning to impinge on their lives, there was another well-known local alcoholic there who was knocking on doors trying to get money off people, and there's several elderly people who gave this woman money, because they were frightened that if they didn't something would happen to them.
so i think i can express some of my neighbours concerns, unless, particularly, not particularly worried about those, but there is a general feeling that things are getting worse, and that they're not safe in their own homes, among the more elderly.
erm and obviously a few people don't like the sight of people on the cowley, the cowley hospital site, and things like that.
this doesn't concern me.
i do feel i'd like to say one point about the people who were in this house, that it's quite clear, all of them i believe were under care of the social services, erm and i don't know enough about their history to say whether they, where they've been before, whether they've been in some half-way house, or just been thrown out of some mental institution.
i'm virtually certain that the woman from whom we had most of the aggravation had been.
she was clearly mentally disturbed, and the reason that i got in touch with the legal project was to see if there's anything that could be done by them to start giving her some way of getting in touch, getting to solve her problem.
obviously this was done out of self interest, but i really, the woman was in real pain.
she was an extremely angry, very bitter woman, who was determined to get everybody around her as angry as she could, and she succeeded, and i don't know where she's moved now, but i'm sure she will go on and do the same thing, and frankly, i despair of anything being done unless there is some provision made for people such as herself, and one of her friends in particular.
that's really what i'd like to say.
thank you very much indeed, i think that's fairly fair, but none-the-less honest way of setting out your feelings.
this is quite a specific issue, and i'm not sure that this committee on this day is in the best position to discuss it in detail.
obviously i'll take your advice on that.
i do think as far as placing people in houses in multi-occupation, we acknowledge that.
how is it done, by whom, who thinks about it, is it planned, is there support, and for that reason we are arranging a meeting, frank, together with the health authority with all those agencies who do place people, sometimes quite sick people as you rightly point out.
so that is certainly on line.
now, i know that what shereen asks us to do, and i'm sure caroline as well, is to organise a multi-agency meeting.
we've done this on the proposed east oxford education centre.
i think we can very usefully do this, and iron our way to this.
what we need from you is really a specific proposal about the kinds of groups and individuals that you want us to sit down with.
you can either do that now, or we can agree in principle that we will take this up.
perhaps chair, vice chair, and opposition liaison member if you feel that's suitable.
and call such a meeting.
i think it will a long way, but you're quite to draw it to us, and to ask us to set out on that road.
michael?
yes, chair.
what sort of people would you involve in this meeting.
i mean there's a lot of voluntary organisations who are working in this field, i don't know how you would just make sure you got them all.
the resources are pitifully small.
i mean, i'm involved in doing some statistics for windmill house, the probation service, and we've found that the sixteen-to-eighteen-year-old provision in the city is very, very small.
i'm sure it's the same for many of the other groups who've got problems.
but, erm i hope you involve all those sort of organisations in your discussions.
i would imagine that shereen would apply the same kind of pattern as you did to the de-toxification centre meeting, shereen, and i felt that there were a great many people there, a great many interested, including the voluntary interest.
betty?
well, of course, chair, a lot of these problems are arising out of the so-called ‘care in community’.
i was hoping we'd avoid the political discussion, betty.
well, you know, i mean.
we've a job to do here.
well, you know me, i don't normally become political, but let's face it, this is one of the direct results of throwing the money to the community without any after care, and i was particularly concerned, with my other hat on, only last week, that a young man told us his address was now the night shelter.
now, because his time at the bridge had ended, he had nowhere else to go, except to the nightshelter.
now, i thought that was quite inappropriate for a young man like him, who had nowhere else to go, so there are many, many multiple problems for people like this in this city, and anything we can do would be appreciated, but i really don't know where we would stop, there are so many problems.
i would ask members to be brief, otherwise we shall actually lose matters off this agenda today.
liz, and then patrick.
chair, can i suggest that some of the people who are actually involved in this are actually asked themselves rather than agencies that might be working with them, because i think that, that most of the, the sort of people we're talking about are actually very sensitive.
and they know about what's happening to them, and know that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter about what their behaviour is, it doesn't matter about what happens to them, because nobody cares.
and i think it's very, very important that they're involved.
through the princes' trust in the month we actually give grants to something like twenty people, just to get them off the street, because there was nowhere else they could turn to.
and i think that there's a massive problem that needs to be addressed, and i think we should involve those people themselves, also in looking at what the issues are, it's all very well for people to decide, workers to think that they know what the issues are.
i very often think that that's not the case.
yes, i think we'd all agree with that.
patrick?
thanks, erm the report refers to east oxford, which is of course for two wards, east and st clement's, but the problem extends city-wide, and i think the solution should be seen as a city-wide solution.
yes.
do you want to finally come back?
yes, i'd like to add one point, matters that the house continues in multiple occupancy and is successful at the present, and the landlord is not prepared to say that he is being now an agent of some hospital or other.
i'm sure that he is, the people who've come from there, quite clearly recovering alcoholics or mental hospital patients, or possibly people from prison, and i've known enough people in my time to know this.
and it is working very, very successful at the moment with the current set of tenants.
however, there's clearly a need for some sort of monitoring and for some support erm other than erm some other support.
the landlord is not prepared to come up front and say that's what he's doing.
unfortunately, i suspect because he fears a reaction from his neighbours, and i'm afraid he's right.
he'd be very aware of what's likely to happen.
he is trying to do something about it, though, i'm sure.
right, and this will call for some sensitivity in terms of how we handle this.
caroline and shereen, is there anything else you want to comment on, otherwise i would ask that you'd come back to me on this in more detail.
i think i'd just like to add that i think that this could possibly be a very big piece of work.
exactly.
and i think it would actually need, if it's going to be taken on board, somebody appointed to look at this, or it be put in somebody's job brief and i would have thought ideally that it would be placed with the community worker, and i don't know quite how we're placed for community workers in east oxford, but maybe it's something we could put to that department.
i hear what you say, and i hesitate to make any further comment on that, given the current climate, but let's set about just examining the shape of the difficulty at the moment, and see what we can as it were immediately deal with ourselves, and what we can try and persuade other people to help us to know .
will you come back to me in terms of who you want to invite, taking on liz kermey's point about involving people themselves if they so wish, and we'll consult with the opposition liaison member and the vice-chair.
but in principle we agree do we not, to back multi-agency meeting, given what we said in the discussion and we will come back to you with something that's maybe a bit more specific, and more easy to discuss, may i say.
thank you very much indeed for coming.
thank you.
thank you, thank you for bringing it forward.
thank you very much.
we're back to the normal agenda, item eight on page thirty-six.
will you also while you're looking at this look at page thirty-seven, which is the pollution and nuclear issues control sub-committee.
you will see there there has been a detailed discussion on this white paper, and members from that sub-committee made comments.
i would suggest we do not need a second read of the discussion, but that can people keep an eye on , or try and change what is already there on pollution itself.
peter, you're introducing this on page thirty-six.
yes, i think it's totally clear that what we need is a short message, and it's a white paper, and therefore it's inviting a message, so what we really need is a short message to go with the a b c and the government act on the two s p's and i would give an undertaking at this point that it will go under the chief environmental health officers' name.
yes, quite.
while you're thinking about it, there are three quick things that you might like to add in, one is on page seventy-four, which, erm seventy-four?
i think it's seventy-nine, peter.
yes, seventy-nine, it's the, in particular one a, i think concerns this community greatly.
the document included no indication of the role of local authorities, or the resources needed by local authorities.
we intend to take this recommendation for action.
and if you actually look at this paper, there's quite a bit at the end of the day that the local authority will need to do, and i think we need to underline that and to get money.
the second point, briefly, is that the white paper has turned its face on the establishment of an environmental protection agency, and independent environment protection agency, and erm, you may feel strongly, i know there was another report that came out just about that time that erm was advocating it, and you may feel that what is needed is a central, independent environmental protection agency.
this paper only gives erm an, what is called an integrated pollution inspectorate, now unfortunately with those sort of central inspectorates is that after the public's attention has drifted on, they tend to be erm, they tend to dwindle in numbers, as we've seen with the present pollution inspectorate.
now, thirdly, is on this question of c o 2 emission.
if you look at the report, white paper, you'll notice that it's sticking to a, a freezing of the nineteen-ninety levels by the year two thousand and five, and you may feel that you would like to see this country come more into line with the other e e c countries and ask for a freezing by the year two thousand.
so those are three, anyway, three things erm that you might like to think about for a short message for a response to the white paper.
michael.
and can i ask members not to repeat the discussion of the pollution sub.
just be very brief, chair, erm could i ask that we have a report before council on this, and i know it will be an extra two hours on the poor council debate, but i think this is so important, and it does affect the planet for hundreds of years to come, and i think if we can't have a discussion on this in full council, well, it's the most important thing we've had for years probably, and i think we should have a discussion before council sit.
can i ask for a list of the full report before council, so it will give us a chance to have a debate there rather than here.
you can, and we will.
anne?
it was just on a minute on page seventy-nine, i think we want to get the support of local m ps, one a has i think, has been just indicated, is contradictory, it might be better to say, ‘although the document indicated that local authorities would be expected to undertake extra, an extra, or extra duties, the resources needed are, no indication was given of how there would be extra resources, or something like that, you see it's contradictory at the moment, it says there's no indication of the role, and then says that they would need resources, and actually if you look through the document, you will see from time-to-time it is indicated what local authorities are expected to do, for instance recycling of litter and the lot, and i think that that might be actually picked up by m p's and say, ‘well, what actually have you, do you mean to say’, well, what we're really saying, are we not, that here is an indication of things that we're expected to do, but as usual, of course , the government hasn't indicated what erm where the resources were coming from.
kate?
sorry, chair, would you wish, when we consider this, do you wish to make the amendment?
well, you won't be able to do that until we do consider the, i mean, but, the reason i referred to page seventy-nine, is to ensure that we do not repeat ourselves, and that those of us on the sub-committee, remember what we said then, and decide whether we want to repeat that.
i mean, on the items of wording, i mean, that can be done on two sub-committees.
yes, fine, i just asked, just checking.
are there items that people, i mean, i take the point about freezing c o 2 emissions.
that's woolly to say the least.
we may want to make the point that if we are to be committed to doing something about the global warming of the ozone layer then we will need to say when we will do it by.
and ensure there's a programme which achieves that.
are there any other additions to that, if not patrick.
yes, i'd like to support michael in the setting up of an environmental protection agency.
i think that if we leave it to 
i don't think it was michael who suggested it.
no, i didn't.
well!
it was peter.
oh, yes, peter, sorry.
i think it would skip to environment being the prerogative of local authorities, there will be a great variation across the country, and i don't think anybody seriously would expect that to happen about health and safety at work, and i think the same should be true of the environment.
right, just to move us on, then, since you're all going to have a go at this at council, yes?
sorry, i just wanted to refer to page eighty-one, erm sixth form conference, thirty-three.
yes
erm students will be asked to report back to the next erm sub-committee
yes they will
so, shall we have a full report then to the next environment and health protection sub-committee of that report.
yes.
can i just bring you back to the item before us, which is ‘this common inheritance’, and ask you to endorse the sub-committees suggestions, i.e. repeat them, as comments from the health committee, with the additions from the vice-chair on environmental protection agency.
on point more adequately made by the deputy about c o two emission, are there any other comments that people want to make, or are you agreed that we refer back to council as it is?
are we then taking up the point that liz spokes made on item one a, on page seven.
procedurally nonnie we can't do that till we come to the sub committee.
well, so that is how it's going to council.
i think it's a great pity.
clearly that will not be the case that that's how it goes to council.
but procedurally, we can amend it when we get to the sub-committee.
is the sub-committee then going to meet before council.
no, we have not yet taken the minutes for this sub-committee, i have simply asked you to take it together with this agenda item.
all i was going to say was that clearly i agree with one thing, but one would assume that as the paper is a really a general outline that we would be seeing specific targets as the agenda's worked through over the next two three years.
oh, yes, if the government's still there, i'm sure they'll do that, yes.
thank you graham.
well, i think they'll be a government still there!
no, yours.
labour!
can i then move you on, and we will correct the pollution and control sub committee minutes when we get to them just and nonnie.
item nine, there's a report for the half year ending on page forty-one, tony?
yes, chair, erm, i was supposed to give the figures if they'd come out at this time.
you'll notice one or two minor changes.
you'll notice that instead of complaints signed in what would be technically the paragraph where they talk about service requests, because many of the requests we get from members of the public to provide a service are not necessarily complaints, but they do need our help.
you'll see that both the number of requests for service, and the number of visits made are well up on previous half years, and although some of that is due to probably the highest figure on insect complaints we've ever had for six months, and erm it's not all that, much of it is lately the department has been very, very busy indeed.
on food control, the level of food hygiene inspections at seven hundred and thirty we've achieved by buying in consultants to do some work for us in our priority area, and we're were able to do that with derek welk's retirement, leaving us with some unspent staff , and so we've achieved a higher figure there than we expected we would do.
erm my cause for concern, and i think it's one that's been echoed in a number of places, is the still very high figure for food-poisoning outbreaks, for food-poisoning cases, erm you'll see we're not as high as the previous comparable half-year of last year, which was ninety-two, but that included the keble outbreak, which you're well aware of, but at thirty-two for oxford for a half year, that's a very high figure.
we haven't had that sort of figure very often before.
erm the national figure seems to be, the national figure of food poisoning cases this year looks like being in excess of sixty thousand.
erm it was around fifty-four thousand last year, and the figure's just going up and up.
the answer to it i just don't know, but the food safety act deals with some of the future, some of the future objectives in terms of better training for people who handle food, and tighter controls on food businesses, so it's something to look forward to, and hopefully in years to come the figure will begin to drop.
on erm food and noise, we're still very, very busy indeed, and our figure for noise inspection is higher than it ever has been before, and the comment that was made under that section will show you that some of that most certainly is the amount of work that the team had to carry out during the summer, one of the benefits of our glorious summer is that most of us slept with our windows fully open for three months or more and one of the dis-benefits was that if anybody else down the road had a party that went beyond normal bed-time, everybody shared that, and our team was very busy in consequence.
erm on occupational health, and i don't plead for those figures, because for a time, until helen left to have her baby, we were fully staffed, and the number of inspections and the number of notices served and the number of prohibition notices served are very encouraging indeed.
the impact of the section has been very broadly based in the city, and for the first time we've added for you in very brief terms, a domiciliary health information of just the total number of visits made by the city health care, erm and the level of work in terms of notices served, and prosecutions, note, going up in most of the sections, particularly their units they're small numbers, but they are significant, just the same, and the table on the top of page forty-four, erm as i said earlier, i think we reached the highest level of insect complaints in the summer that we've ever had to deal with, it's very usual for us to deal with a thousand, over in the summer period, this time we dealt with sixteen hundred.
an amazing amount of work carried out by the three members of the pest control team, with some additional help with larger jobs during the summer period.
thank you, tony.
i'd remind members that this report also goes to council.
it's very useful if you have detailed questions on this particular report that you do let myself and the chief know well in advance, so that you get a detailed answer, quite frankly.
erm i've seen graham, anne and diane.
yes, erm very, very quickly, erm i notice that the swimming pool and river bathing visits had more than doubled, i just wondered what the cause of that was, and whether in fact it was mainly related to the swimming pools or to the river bathing bit erm places, and the second one is, regarding the noise, i notice that it has shot up, the number of visits to seven twenty one, but in fact, the prosecution's only gone up to one, and i wondered if mr fenn could tell us whether in fact because of the higher profile that had been given to this erm activity, due to its possible cut, whether in fact more people are aware of it and there were more
undoubtedly
should we say, complaints of a casual nature, rather than a particularly serious nature?
well,.
erm on the question of the river samples and pool samples, yes, i think one of the city pools, one of the school pools we had a bit of a problem, so that took much of concentrated attention of it for a period of two or three weeks, so that's probably a reflection, i don't think much of it relates to the river sample.
we take samples throughout the year from the river, but they're really at background level, and not very helpful i must admit, in terms of getting the quality of the river improved, we can't do that.
on the noise question, yes, undoubtedly the increased erm number of complaints is partly due to the higher profile that was achieved during the summer, but erm no, i don't think that the complaints were frivolous, they were complaints that were, that needed attention, and there will be one or two prosecutions following through.
remember this set of figures closes on thirtieth of september.
very often prosecutions follow on sometime after the event happens.
it may be worth saying, tony that graham's already talked to officers and it's worth your while talking to people on the house-to-house duty rota.
parties then with noise, just imagine going up to the door where there are fifty or sixty seething people in there.
in order to serve a notice you have to get a name, and that's enormously difficult, because i mean, practical difficulties need to be taken on board, anne and then diana.
well, having had to avail ourselves of the help of the officer who got rid of our gigantic wasp nest, i should like to say what a superb job they do, but i just wondered in view of the tremendous number, whether there is some kind of way of preventions.
i know in our case, and therefore probably in a lot that it isn't always possible, they'll always find a way in, but if there was some perhaps advice to people it might bring down this number of complaints, that you could perhaps do before the wasp season begins, i don't know whether that's a possibility or not.
i don't think it's possible, chair, but i will talk with clive williams who's our expert in that.
i think the main reason for so many wasps this year is to, warm summers, and but it's basically the long summer period, because we started, you see on the wasp complaints in may, which we don't really start until half way through june, and we kept going right through, right until the middle of october, and they normally stop round the end of august, so that's the main reason; a very long, hot summer.
thanks.
i'd like to second anne's congratulations really, to the, to the men who deal with wasps nest, because they're very usually men who come along!
they are all men.
they are?
well, i know he was a man, i saw him!
all of them are.
and, i certainly have taken steps to make sure that i don't get a wasps nest, but in that particular area again, because he begged to point out to me where the wasp was getting access to, a little tiny space above my bedroom window, and that has now been sealed, so hopefully the wasps another year will find a home somewhere else that isn't quite so close to my open bedroom window.
so perhaps if people were aware of some of the places where wasps can go within their home, they might be able to sort of take those conscious that wasn't actually what i had 
well, be quick then!
nothing, nothing fascinating.
i just wanted to know what on page forty-two under ‘water sampling’, what the bracketing figures say four u stroke s, one u stroke s, etcetera meant, and on page forty-three, why under ‘programme and revisiting inspection’ this four one nine p was starred.
i just wondered what those contexts and you will be bound to be asked it in council if it's not asked now.
thank you very much, diana.
thank you.
chair, we do class as unsatisfactory those samples that the laboratory would covers don't reach certain standards, whatever the standard may be, and that's why we concentrate on that figure that the bathing unsatisfactory at one particular pool, where there was a serious problem.
and the starred items, i think the starred items, i'm not sure now, i think, can you help here?
no, i'm sorry, ken.
i'm pretty sure that the 
programmed visits?
programmed visits, yes, i think they'll have been debt inspections that have carried out, whereas the higher figures above them are audit, and these are the ones that take more time, and are programmed to deal with everything, you know.
may i suggest, may i suggest that's put on the report before it goes to council.
thank you, nonnie finally 
yes, erm on page forty-one, ‘unsatisfactory samples’, we have six others, erm is there a general category below six, like meat or something like that?
if there was a general category, i think it would be put, however.
yes.
the category ‘others’, under ‘unsatisfactory samples of food’ six.
yes, they could be a range of things, chair, i'll check out what they are and make sure you've got some 
okay, nonnie.
yes.
the only other thing i would say is that you've got domiciliary health there on the bottom of page forty-three for the first time, a thing that we certainly asked for on your behalf.
i suggest that the figures you've got before you are not terribly, terribly useful, and that you do invite domiciliary health to come back to you for three months to talk to you about their work in terms of the visits, the visits that they do.
it will be a whole lot clearer to you then, but it's there basically because it was asked for, it's inadequate because that was all they could do on the day, having been instructed to provide it.
so i apologize for that.
could i ask, chairman, chair the number of successful prosecutions?
you've got it later on in the agenda, arthur, can we wait for that one?
and the report for the half year will go to the council as you've heard.
item ten, matthew's been patient, where is he, he's there.
food control in oxford on page forty-five.
can i ask you before inviting you to speak to us in two or three minutes on this, say that the recommendation, in a sense i think it has been overtaken, in that there is now under fifteen a the very distinct possibility of a transfer of a very technical post from the pollution section by the end of the year.
that's to say someone is leaving and we are going to take that post out and put it into the food section, and on b, i would say to matthew that before committing us to a budget of two and a half thousand against a background of ten percent cuts, i would suggest that the health educational help-line and their day-long courses for e h os might be made good use of in the forth-coming year.
but 
thank you chair.
i think first of all, i'd like to be very brief, but just to say the purpose of this short report with the appendices has not got any special status with food control, just set the record straight as to what we are capable of doing currently and what we can't do.
erm that was with the current staff resources with certain changes since the summer.
now, it's obviously very good that a position is going to be replaced by a technician, for which a, which at the moment is elsewhere in the department.
what erm my view is that we have a current shortfall, and i think the figures highlight this, and the shortfall is in the highest of the high risk, if you like, the ultra high-risk area of catering.
erm although one would hate to be, i don't want to be accused of being elitist and saying that e h o's must do a particular job, but what i would like to say it that we need people who are trained to a sufficient level to be able to do the ultra high risk catering area, as distinct from other high-risk areas.
it's my professional opinion that we have a problem there in terms of training and expertise, and i feel that, as you've said, the technician is forth-coming, we will be obviously having to draft very, very carefully a job description, but i feel that training requirements will be such that it will be very, very difficult to fulfil those requirements and indeed to cope with this ultra high-risk catering area.
it's my considered opinion that the only way we can do that is by an e h o, and we will find, eventually, that we will suffer continued short-fall in terms of ultra high-risk inspection.
i think it's fair to say that we've gone a long, long way in oxford to breaking down barriers with regard to the inspection priorities, and we are in a position within the city where we have nature of, if you like, technicians and staff that are doing jobs that in many other surrounding areas, and indeed throughout the country are the prerogative of e h o, and these include areas specified as high-risk by maff, and include a great bulk of all customer and consumer complaints.
the only area that i'm saying is in need for careful consideration is that related to risks associated with the possibilities of food poisoning and very high-risk food handling.
i think really that is all i can say, chair, erm in addition to your comments.
thanks very much indeed for your report, matthew, it's certainly very informative, and in an ideal world, i think we might have made a different decision today.
are there comments or questions immediately, catherine?
i do have a question and, and it hasn't made, that hasn't made it particularly clear as to where we are, you hinted that, and i think that was also seconded here that there might now be a post of some kind to carry on for instance the thing that i'm particularly worried about is that there's a sort of hiatus in the heartbeat awards, which i think would be a tragedy if that happened, and i want to be absolutely sure that that is, isn't so.
do i take it that actually the remarks that have just been made are really in favour of having a third e h o, but that in fact that that in circumstances, will not be possible.
so i really, what i'm asking, is that perhaps it could be set out exactly now what stage we have reached, and what the recommendation is as from today.
what you have before you is matthew feeling and indeed, i would take it, supported by the chief officer.
erm there always has been the situation since derek roberts retired, and in fact his post was put in the pollution section, where there was only one e h o, the agreement then that there would be a swap straight e h o for technician swap, but food had traditionally, as long as i've been involved have three e h os.
now, i don't expect matthew to support that for one moment, but what i'm saying to committee is that is our pragmatic solution at this moment.
i don't expect the heartbeat award scheme to suffer, i will be in touch with matthew fairly closely to ensure that, but i think the position of the labour group is that we cannot support these recommendations as they are but we offer you a compromise solution.
nonnie?
yes, erm, presumably the training for a technical post in the pollution section will give kind of basic bacteriology, which will be, you know, essential for going over into the food section, erm i mean, what will become.
i think that's probably not the case, it isn't a person we're transferring over, it's a bit better than that, it's a post, which means that matthew can advertise with a particular emphasis on food background.
he may be right, he may not be able to recruit the ideal person.
on the other hand there are some qualifications that technicians may take, we may be lucky, we may get such a person, and i hope so.
yes, so it isn't a person.
right.
matthew, are there, erm diana?
thank you.
it's a, it's a fascinating report and having been involved in the food forum discussion, when we, it was reported to us that we'd actually lost a community nutritionist, i read this with great interest to see just how now the professional was seen through sections.
and, i mean, reluctantly we have to accept that this is not an ideal world, but i mean, just now, we were actually looking at the number of food hygiene inspections that have been done over the last few months, which have increased enormously, it just means, i mean it emphasises the fact that food has changed, food, and the number of places that are actually serving food now i mean, the corner shop does sandwiches.
everybody seems to be producing food, wherever you go food is on offer, food is for sale.
i realise that many of these are not high-risk areas, but they are areas that our officers have got to, got to keep an eye on.
and numbers are increasing while our staffing has actually, actually decreased.
erm we've got to recognise the professional advice that matthew is giving us in this report, that he, he needs professional trained staff, and it grieves me that really we can only offer a technician when he is asking for something more.
but we are giving, we are giving him a post, another body, and hopefully with a very careful job description he will get a trained person, because we also recognise the fact that oxford's a marvellous place for people to come.
the environmental health department is seen throughout britain as being a nice place to come.
i mean, i keep hearing that when i come into the environmental health department, that, just that people are interested in what oxford are doing.
they keep busy, don't they.
well set up.
yes.
so we're one of the important environmental health departments, sure, so hopefully we will actually get somebody who is really very good, a food technician to assist in this erm field, and there have, i hope that through food forum we may well be able to help matthew with his, well not just matthew, but help, help that section with the nutrition advice that he feels is still lacking in his team under the circumstances.
thanks very much diana.
can i just remind members that, i mean there's a member of the technical staff in this room now.
we have a number of technicians in the environmental health department who do some sterling work, and i know that no one here would want you to suppose that they are a kind of second-string person.
they do a different kind of work, they've traditionally done considerably responsible work within oxford city's environmental health department, so there isn't a suggestion on the part of any of us that they are somehow lesser beings, because that is not the case at all.
can i put it to you that we cannot today accept the recommendation on page forty-eight.
but i do move today that we transfer the technical post that will become vacant in the pollution section by the end of this year to the food section, and that matthew together with the chief environmental health officer consider how best to write a job description, and advertise for that post, and that while i do not see us securing a budget of two thousand five hundred pounds as under fifteen b, i do recommend that the health education authority are contacted, that their help-line is used, and that our e h o's use their premises in the coming new year.
i am assured that they are advertised in the institutions journal.
matthew, that isn't all you want, but maybe we'll be able to discuss this again in twelve months time.
thank you very much for the work you've put in.
alright.
thank you chair.
thanks.
i note that we have terry randal here.
maybe we should take item seventeen and allow him, is ten minutes going to be enough?
erm i'll try and do this in ten minutes.
you'll try and do this in ten minutes.
let's straight into seventeen then, i'll just remind committee that we need to move to the confidential section at five o'clock today in order to get it finished.
item seventeen is the age-well project, the report is circulated on page a hundred and eight.
we're particularly delighted actually that tony randall has come along to share his own very particular views on this project.
you'll remember that we had a pilot project in south oxford health centre, tony is one of the g p's there, i'm expecting that he's going to be very positive about this project since we all are, in terms of it's practice service delivery.
well, then tony, tell us about how it feels at your end.
okay, i'll give you a very brief background to the project.
it started in the autumn of eighty-eight, when phil approached me and said, ‘look, we would like to consider putting our services that we do offer to finance in a more effective way’, running alongside that was a project being run by oxfordshire health authority where they were sending postal surveys to elderly people; people over the age of seventy erm sixty-five at one point, and were getting back a huge amount of information on their perceived needs.
we thought perhaps we can use that as a goal standard, and pick up what actually happens with our project to compare the two.
so that's where we were in the autumn of eighty-eight.
by spring of eighty-nine, when the project had started, we'd gone quite a long way down the road, we'd decided that we wanted to be looking at what was feasible in general practice.
get this machine working over here.
what was feasible general practice, and whether that was the best place to be contacting the local people.
now, the reason we particularly were interested in this was that from the questionnaire we already were beginning to get back some information, and we discovered that eighty-six percent of people had seen their g p in the previous year, and maybe if we could introduce them to the age-well project at some point during that contact, we would be able to achieve something.
against that there'll be seventeen percent of this population was seeing home-helps, five percent was seeing social workers.
so we though that we would try it in general practice.
next thing to do was to set up a form.
looks horrendous, but bear in mind these elderly people have just answered a sixteen page postal questionnaire with no help.
and what's more eighty-six percent of them answered it.
and i was quite impressed by that.
we gave them a sheet of paper which said what we were, what we're doing, and said please, if you want any help in any of those areas, just tick the box, and if you don't want any help, tick this little box, and that's what they had to fill in.
and they were given this when they were brought into the surgery by the receptionist.
we discovered very rapidly that if it was the doctor that had to present the age-well project to the patients that quite often they forgot to do it.
in greater detail i could look at what kind of coverage we've got, but i think in ten minutes i don't have time to do that.
suffice it to say that amongst the people who were not contacted by this project within the first year are some of those seeing doctors on eight occasions.
the receptionists are much at giving out these things than doctors.
they can do it while they're waiting, couldn't they.
on the back of the form, we simply have a method of writing down anything that's interested, and also includes a sticker of who the person is, a particular one.
so i thought we could look at results now, which are probably the thing that's most interesting.
just taking that form with those boxes, that's how people responded.
this thing breaks it down by age, as i say, we're looking at seventy-fives and over.
more than half the people don't want any help at all.
well, i think that's, we can accept the point easily.
erm quite a lot of help required in areas of the remit of this committee i would guess, things like home, security and safety, heating down here, quite a lot of people want help with heating.
they're both, press it hard right that's going.
press the one, the black one behind there to switch it off.
so we're on now are we?
come on beauty 
have you made any tea?
no.
oh dear, oh dear oh dear.
oh you hello little doggy.
try cooking this ham, do you think they might like it then?
sorry?
the ham.
the dogs.
try cooking it.
oh.
well wouldn't be able tempt them into er 
i mean really they should they don't mind 
well that's the availability of the things isn't it?
i think you might have to er take him down the road afterwards when it clears up.
oh you're not going to take them with you?
well see how it goes 
it's going off a bit now isn't it?
oh no.
erm you do realize this ham is already cooked don't you?
no.
no.
thought it might, they won't eat it like that, that's 
have they not eaten anything at all?
i haven't given them anything yet.
oh.
pliers and the screwdriver out take them with you 
no, for that job i was doing last night.
the ca 
oh yes on the er 
the castors
castors. into the garage 
yes
have you gotta be there early this morning?
no.
oh.
but i want to get there for nine.
i said to john yesterday i said i i've done the er chair.
i said i wanna get on with these, those dining chairs next in the sale.
when's the sale?
summer time isn't it?
about june?
erm may some time in may.
well where are you going to get the fabric for those?
trip to 
yes margaret, what do you think?
brilliant ideas 
and see they were asking me what i was gonna use yesterday and i said oh i don't know i said, i haven't got a clue.
something about er tapestry.
i said oh you're 
no 
spending a lot of money and er
don't forget
i said it's not for us anyway so
it's going to take a lot of fabric both sides and the back.
full length of the back of the chairs across the seat 
exactly.
probably be yards of material that, and you've got six chairs so and you'd have to buy it off the roll, you're not going to get a piece a length at six yards are you?
you know 
where's your cup?
that's mine there, i've got mine out.
oh 
in the bathroom.
sun's trying to come out.
well i'll be able to take them down in a minute.
we'll have to take this thing to ken's.
mm mm ah look batteries.
i'm sure it's in pauline's garden because i've seen a few times.
e t mm watching that
yes.
don't you dare.
they look like pink flowers on there don't they?
must be the leaves i think because i don't think it flowers this shrub here.
it's the leaves.
mm.
that dogwood i moved i'm hoping it's gonna be alright cos it doesn't s show much sign of life at the moment.
oh i put it down the other end.
oh.
i wonder did ann stop smoking yesterday?
mm.
likes her fags doesn't she?
well think, didn't she give up last year?she said something about it last year on radio, on no smoking day.
alright muff?
must be torture for some people.
terrible.
wonder how many cigars ken's consuming every day now?
well i think it's only about four.
it's a lot though isn't it?
should be 
about four a week four a day mm 
oh god, there's snow.
mm well we haven't seen any this year have we really?
too late now.
yeah too late to be serious 
i was wrapped up to the eyes when i went u down to put my walking boots on as well because they're comfortable and there were people going going round in their shellsuits and you know i must be feeling the cold more now .
i don't think i'd have been warm enough in a shellsuit.
now what about eating up your meat?
come on.
ooh that's better.
do you wanna go for walkies?
mm?
do you wanna go for walkies?
you do?
walkies okay.
now it's on, the light comes on doesn't it when it's on?
ooh!
so i've left that form there for you to erm 
oh right-oh.
oh do, do you want these bin bags?
yes, gonna take those to get us some water.
oh
while it's going, what?
this morning really but what can you do?
isn't there any at all?
no.
oh.
how is it?
it's not bad, it's
she can get on for an hour 
i mean they are at the moment and if i have a meeting well after about an hour it seems as though you've 
working 
oh dear god those chrysanthemums done well.
they have, yes they're er they're good value those a pot, i mean but they're reasonably when did you get it?
it must be about three weeks ago.
can't think what it was for now.
i think it was one of those impromptu ones.
i know it wasn't my birthday you just came in with it didn't you ?
it's birthday.
i mean the only trouble is they're no use afterwards are they?
must have had a brainstorm 
i said they're no use afterwards are they?
i don't i don't know.
because they're forced i reckon.
oh.
i think they'll grow if you put them in the garden eventually.
well 
well i mean they won't flower again, that's for certain you see and it's it's gotta be 
no, well not this year anyway, they they could 
oh right.
have you got, oh ta look take this as well.
yes i'm taking it.
oh.
i'm going to have a go at this today.
they've dried out a bit, been too tacky to do anything with.
bye bye chaps, don't let them out.
no see you then.
did they try and drag you up the farm yesterday?
well he's, he actually was off the lead and he went straight through right to the other gate 
oh and you kept them off the road did you?
you didn't just er
oh yes well the gate was open so 
and i always do 
so she went into the second field 
i'm not going 
no it's a quag 
carried on for a while realized in the end he had to come back 
it's in a bad state hang on 
bye, see you later.
switch that on while you're
morning shirley.
that's twice this week
five to nine
whatever's happening?
i'm going going back the other way.
i don't know
i mean ten o'clock yeah that's normal for you.
it's not, half nine is my 
no i know you .
alright terry, how you doing lad?
oh looking at his mummy with eyes a shiny blue that bloody car of mine, hear the trouble i had?
i was late yesterday wasn't i?
yes 
the carburettor?
no, no i it's the m o t you see
oh
next, next week so the other front pads are worn
yeah
discs like got four pads and i thought oh an hour put those on isn't it?
not much of a job when it came to put them on like the erm you know the pipe that pushes them out?
yeah, yeah 
you've gotta push them back haven't you?
and you've usually got 
yeah that's right 
too much fluid in
yeah
well it says in the book, push them back with a stick .
with a what?
with a stick and a piece of 
yeah 
well if it's frozen there's no way so er i rang up mobil you see in and the fellow said oh if it's been on for s you know few years he said, take your calliper off, put it in the vice and just lever it back that's what we do
yeah.
goes to get the flexible hose off that was ruddy frozen, you the, the union?
yeah, yeah
rang him up again he said oh aye well we usually change those he said, the weather gets on them.
said they're not like the old ones that go like as though they're welded
yeah.
and you're turning the whole pipe.
he said the only, the other thing you can do is loosen it off take the calliper b and turn the calliper round.
yeah.
it's like turning the car round to take off a bloody bolt, you know?
oh i thought i'll do that to save another hose.
anyway did that course he said you'll have to bleed it out 
yeah.
did the first one right this was on er wednesday afternoon you see?
so came to do the other side, went to the same routine the nipple snapped off.
so any rate i rang this fellow i said eh he said oh he said you've got no chance mate, he said.
he said you can drill it out but he said you oh aye your the thread gets damaged and the seating
that's right, yeah.
and he said if you get one leak on that your brakes
yeah.
you're shot.
so a new calliper how much do you think for a new calliper?
no idea.
seventy pound plus vat from volvo's.
bloody hell!
so i thought there's no way, so i rang round the scrapyards.
yeah.
there's one at greenville he said oh twenty five pound plus vat.
that's what i did, yesterday morning went with my mate came back, stuck it on so it's cost me the, the pads were seventeen twenty, thirty pound for the what's a name and fifty quid near enough just to do the front brakes.
bloody hell.
and that's before the m o t.
yeah yeah.
the other week it cost me fifty quid to go to the, to get it tuned you know?
cars, honest to god.
you want some money today don't you, just to ruddy eh?
they work out twenty five pounds an hour in garages.
oh, oh well well you don't go there do you, unless you've got bloody hell.
well our m o t guy, fair do you know and he'll say so and so wants doing, can you take it away and do it?
yeah.
and he doesn't charge.
yeah.
these other ones, as soon as you leave do it yourself that's another twenty quid for a re-test 
yeah.
oh aye.
you do it there they only charge fifteen is it or something if they do it.
but i mean you know as you just said then they'd wanna charge you per hour it's
yeah.
beyond the working man.
now shirley, you're still messing about with this little job here.
well i wanted the sander.
we're just coming in a minute.
isn't it?
yes i like this business of putting your what's a name on this d with this you know, the glue on.
well it was so flaky, the wood
yeah.
and that sort of seals 
but 
it in doesn't it?
well it seals it but it also helps to erm give you some purchase you see for
yes that's right, when you put the next lot in.
the patch, yeah but if you had just glued that then 
alright bri, how's it going mate?
oh just work innit?
the gentleman there's going out with me round about quarter past eleven do you wanna come with us and call in to that place?
where oh where you going?
see about the wood...
oh yeah alright then, yes 
see if you can get any wood 
alright, yeah just see what he says.
did you bring a sample in?
no, i never thought.
no 
but i can ask him and i'll 
well 
tell him er you know, he knows yeah
er
see it all hinges on if he's got a bandsaw, if he if he hasn't got a bandsaw, wasting our ruddy time.
he's going out the port about quarter past eleven.
yeah it won't take long will it?
because i've got myriads of things to do.
never mind.
oh you're on about her, oh go oh aye, oh well.
don't start that again, you know what i mean?
well she 
i'm gonna get that lad some.
now if you want some more there 
you mean tony is it or ?
is it tony?
the young fellow who or erm
tony
tony
tony 
oh yeah.
we'll see what he says anyway.
yeah.
see what the guy .
yeah no trouble mate, yeah just sing out when you're ready boy.
victorian dressing table 
oh oh that's nice.
i i did glance over yesterday er
yeah.
but er 
fair job i'm doing.
oh that's nice that.
where's the rest of it?
it's near the table, moved it.
paula was 
paula's here?
instead of driving screws through the top.
yeah.
screws just at the front underneath here this was in a bad state cos er this was this was up like er like that.
yeah.
this and this end had caved, being unsupported.
so it worth a few bob.
oh aye yes it's nice.
i like the legs.
what does brian think of the legs, any good?
hand made nails
oh yeah.
there yeah.
yeah the old cast iron nails, they're good aren't they?
black nails
yeah.
yes i like that.
yeah you can use them again.
i'd just drill a hole me and knock them in, you know?
as i say i 
smart innit?
yes i like that er 
rather than waste all of the oak in the old days here have, have faced it 
oh yeah yeah he's put like a fillet on the front yeah yeah
all the way round
yeah
you see?
of oak.
yeah.
rather than use solid oak.
do a lovely smart job on that don't we?
gluing it on, eh?messing like that today.
pooof!
but er yes that would go anywhere that wouldn't it?
he gave me a before he went on holiday and he hasn't come back.
shirley gone up now.
anyway i must box on chaps.
must get something done bri.
moonlight becomes you it goes with your hair and it it's so romantic to know moonlight becomes you so 
morning
morning chris how are you love?
i'm alright thanks, how are you?
very good.
morning john, how you doing lad?
morning.
alright.
you've got it cracked have you?
you're all dressed up to go dreaming don't tell me i'm wrong i'm sure i've seen that material before somewhere you know.
don't
i'm sure i've seen that material somewhere before.
morning jo
morning jo morning margaret morning paula oh she's not speaking to me this morning paula.
i've upset her.
i know what it is paula, i haven't borrowed anything yet.
hello love.
how are you love?
alright thanks.
how are you?
sweating.
i'm sweating, no i'm 
what do you think of that?
ooh aye!
hey, that might do for my chairs do you think?
would that, that style my dining chairs, what do you think?
it's just quilting, that's all it is.
oh it's qu oh no it's for er it's more like curtains is it?
no.
oh.
it's going on me chair.
it's going on the box.
oh i see yeah so i suppose it's 
box 
gotta be heavy stuff i see yeah, er yeah oh that's a good id 
she said it was a remnant and i thought i'd make a box for the sale.
but do you like the colour?
yes, it's gorgeous that isn't it eh?
oh thank christ for that.
no it's not gaudy, it's er 
well it was, it was so cheap
well yeah this is it you see, yeah 
it was only a couple of pound a yard.
that's what i'll have to get for these chairs 
a remnant.
i've got six chairs to do, where from,abercanny 
yeah.
oh i'll see if i can get some of that.
you see you're you, you're better to go to moston because you're halfway, you're there aren't you, living in queensferry?
yes yeah.
you know, go to, go to moston, it's much quicker 
yeah oh yeah, yeah.
but you can't get 
just go up on the a fifty five
quite often the remnants aren't very good you know paula.
oh they are got miles 
i know but a lot of it's rubbish isn't it?
it's not all good stuff like this.
what, do you think that's rubbish then?
who john?
you pointed to him then.
had a bloody row this morning already 
oh 
well i, i wanted just a small box like what you made.
wasn't satisfied with it, he goes and makes a big one as well but i don't want a big one, i don't wanna do a big one for the sale i just wanna do a small one.
ah well he's always wanted a big one.
yes
and er and a stool with a seat to match, that's all i wanted.
mm.
that's typical 
never satisfied with what i do.
typical of him.
oh
eh?
what a mistake you made.
right what are we doing john?
chairs we're doing today.
there's six of those to do, now then.
yeah put them in the sale, you know i'm gonna put them in the sale see if we can get a few bob right, pattern first i should imagine.
many people coming to the sales.
i won't let you 
i've only put, i've put stuff in.
yeah.
you know but
i er never actually
i, i i made about sixty quid last year, you know?
oh yes i believe it gets er quite a lot, it's er well yesterday there weren't many for that open day.
but for the sale er it's well advertised you know and er there's a lot of people seem to know about it, you know connected with the college mainly i suppose, they get their mates to come ooh there's good stuff and there is some good stuff, you know?
yeah.
so it's er it seems to do pretty well.
i'll er i'll try to get a few things, make a few bob you know, to 
don't mind me asking, what would you expect to ?
don't know yet.
well i'm hoping a hundred plus 
you know?
yeah.
well christ you've gotta be, i've paid that to be honest
yeah
i've paid seventy for the bloody things.
yeah.
erm i dunno 
oh they're nice chairs 
hundred and thirty maybe i'm not, i'm not quite sure to be honest er not quite sure old mate.
yeah i'll see what they say, you know, erm i'll john, he had a set of erm high backed reproduction erm what do they call them now?
regency nineteen twenties,in the twenties 
yeah 
out of mahogany.
they are nice though, they've got the queen anne legs and the high back you know?
yeah.
he got about er two hundred for those last year, set of six.
you know he just bought them from sale or whatever it was, sixty, seventy quid bit of polish.
they were not mistaken.
did, he did well.
some of them have a lot of stuff, you know i don't seem to ever get hold of the stuff me, to tables and that little eric in there he seems to get loads of stuff 
yeah i can't 
he's got a lovely table there hasn't he?it's a nice one.
he's got a lot of connections eric, you know and
i have very few i'm afraid.
there you go.
thank you.
and i think that's why we've got such a good dentist.
mm 
and he erm he was very upset about it.
then he by that time this expensive and that's the one that's .
so he said start again.
you're still paying out that's the trouble, all the time.
well that's it.
but on the other hand, what can you do about it?
you can't 
no, no it's oh no you can't go round gummy.
we're going to, we've, we've got this going down to for three weeks, you know next weekend or the weekend afterwards, and we don't keep getting appointments, see i'm gonna keep ringing him up and pestering him and saying 
mm 
have you got a cancellation?
it's life isn't ray?
oh yeah.
i mean 
i mean what
friend of ours, he, he hit his tooth, got a lovely tooth ken he's sixty one now, never had much trouble you know
snapped this one off er you know in an ac he fell over or whatever, on his 
yeah, that's right.
said oh god he didn't know whether to pull it out there and then
but it's very hard 
but went to the dentist and he said leave it pushed it right back and he said it will grow back.
did it?
oh yes.
ah it must 
long as the roots are 
oh well yes, oh well yeah, oh well now obviously 
so er 
i mean my boy had a er a terrible accident ten years ago and smashed all his face all his teeth were when we first saw his face he'd got no teeth left but it's got them all back.
and they're all back and yeah even though they were all, they were all loose i mean still fresh you see the, the break.
and it's, the life is in the, still in the tooth if you can find it, but of course sometimes they've gone haven't they?
too late for us 
put up with what we've got eh?
what?
put up with what we've got.
well as i say i look after mine but i've only got the one missing.
mm i'd hate to have a load of chop ooh 
was scared only children he was scared wasn't he?
tony was frightened.
oh yes that's stupid that, he he'll end up if he doesn't go, with a mou a mouth of sort of black 
he, he'll have them all out.
yes.
if he we used to the children 
i think that's awful if young people 
even our grandchildren were, i mean er right from the beginning even if they only go and sit in the surgery and just watch,ju you know just go and visit 
yeah that's, that's what they do now yeah.
get them trained, get them 
yes, yeah so they're not terrified.
that's right, i mean there's no pain 
i think they were frightening years ago when they, when we were kids so they're frightening places.
well we had no, we had no erm nothing to stop the pain.
no.
we had no injections, we were just put in a chair and, and it cost 
that's right 
two guineas for every filling 
i know, it's a lot of money.
i mean 
yeah, week's wages yeah.
but we, he didn't get more than two or three guineas a week did he when we were first 
that's right, yeah yes
then we get, i know our dentist was very good, we've always said that if we had a good dentist and a good doctors we're on our holidays, and we have, we've been lucky wherever we've been
mm.
mm.
we've had good dentists, good doctors.
oh it pays you to get a sympathetic one and one that's er not on the 
but this one is lovely.
this one's young and he's so gentle, you know he 
yes.
oh they're marvellous.
i think that's what tony's harking back to, the old style when you went and they were a bit er callous.
yes indeed well,young, how old is he?
twenty five?
he's only in his twenties, yeah he ought not, no it wouldn't be would it?
no.
twenty years ago they were, they were alright weren't they?
what am i thinking about?
no i'm thinking about 
well you know the first time i went was oh i dunno, before the war you know when i was about four or five and i went to get one out i mean my parents
but it was terrible i was screaming, i was terrified and, and, and i can still see the place you know, there's something very foreboding about the, the place and the chair was like a
and everything was hard 
wasn't it?
and they wouldn't mess about if you, you they slapped you if you didn't do as you were told.
so that put me right off for a start.
but erm you only get one good set don't you?
that's right.
i 
and also you see right from, right from pregnancy 
well they get it free don't they?
at the moment.
yeah.
i mean er it's before they're conceived that you've got to try to 
oh yes, yes.
i mean it's no good smoking yourself to death and then er
that's right.
falling for a baby and then saying 
no no 
oh dear
well that makes me ill now.
it didn't used to but when i, i, i, i feel like going up to these girls and saying for god's sake take that thing out of your mouth.
that's right.
when they're pregnant or they've got a little baby.
it's horrible.
i mean 
but you know you can't tell people.
this friend of ours who lost his wife last year, well we've got another friend who was very fond of her she also smokes we just happened to me we didn't say
no.
i mean it's happened now so we never 
absolutely.
no you can't.
say to th this chap you know but we just happened to mention in passing to jeanette and she really jumped and said oh pat didn't smoke a lot.
but
was it very sudden?
we know via my daughter she's a nurse and she said no cancer get a lot of uterine cancer and all this it's not, not in the lungs now.
forget that.
that's obvious.
but all the other things
that's right.
it goes to.
but you can't tell these people.
they won't listen.
this lady we're on about now she's she must be on forty, fifty a day.
a nervous smoker.
see how does she afford it?
well that's right, they're both of them at it.
god knows.
pin this to the chair 
oh god help well get brian to do that, he loves it.
morning bruce, how you doing lad?
you busy?
yeah.
well pleased.
what have they got you on this morning?
oh
and, and a door there to keep you people nice and warm.
oh, now?
the summer's coming on now.
we do things back to front 
yes 
we had three lots of different blues and that's the only one i really like 
poor old john's puzzled is he, all the time?
no he doesn't mind actually, he's very good.
no oh we go a l and it looks nice.
he likes a change.
you see that the, the, it's so dark in here anyway ray because
mm
the wall as you know backs 
yes 
on to the pub so i haven't got any window at the back.
it's all at the front, yes yes, yes 
i've only got the window at the front, so the dining area is quite dark
dark, yes yes.
so but i wanted something bright in there you know.
mm.
but it was only a temporary in there,like the floor and everything just a, a brown carpet because of honey
oh yes 
with her season but now 
right 
she doesn't have it now
yeah
i shall get a nice carpet in there now you know?
it'll be right one day.
joan i think i'd better box on with the webbing here love, i haven't got enough 
sorry?
i'll bo i'd better box on with the webbing on the back.
haven't got me glue anyway so 
a box?
no, box a coventry expression, get on
oh.
get on with me webbing on the back.
what you were talking about 
i'll box on 
box on.
so i want two down is it and three across?
something like that.
two down and three a er there's some there 
sound like a crossword.
what?
webb is that what you're asking me for, some webbing?
no i've got webbing here.
i've got, no 
oh, well what are you asking me for?
oh ho how many to do.
i'm just saying i'll have i'll have to leave me foam to next week and get some glue so er 
well there's some glue in the jar to stick some 
but i can't see any there 
er the spray try the 
oh is that glue is it?
yeah it is.
oh is this the latest?
give it a good shake though 
oh er 
oh i see, okay, give that a go.
that's the latest that's the latest we'll take manhattan now then, couple it's quiet in here today john isn't it?
there's not many folks 
about, what?
oh smashing 
th that's where the erm the back 
goes in too far.
oh of course.
see so i, in fact i was wondering whether to just 
couple of gimps maybe?
you know just to a er er
yeah.
draw attention to the fact that they are 
yes.
but it is round the back i know 
yeah, never be seen will it?
i can't say
three brass things, no it shouldn't be seen really, so i don't know whether i'm drawing attention to it by putting brass things 
yes that's the thing, of course.
i s 
cos it's got a handle on it now at the front here round the other side
yes i'm gonna do mine something like this i think.
have you er it is sprung is it?
pardon?
sprung?
yes.
ooh 
did it, they 
dear god.
bloody he 
it didn't actually have a handle on it.
just put one on it 
yeah 
yeah well you could have a bit of material couldn't you?
yeah.
looks a bit rough.
yeah bloody hell!
this webbing now is that alright love?
yes.
now you've, your material didn't go the other way on that these chairs did they, before you 
no 
put the webbing on?
yes 
it just goes on to the edge here.
oh yes.
i 
going to hide the back, all that webbing?
oh no oh no wait a minute, no 
yeah, you realize do you it's what it, what's wrong.
the, the fro the top cover should have gone on first should it?
material gone on first.
oh yes 
procedure for any tackle, if you haven't got any the cover must go that way.
oh i, i'd never, i i realize now from six weeks ago when i got the damn things
yeah.
and it's gone blank.
of course the top material's gotta go on first joan hasn't it?
yes.
what am i?
mm.
yeah.
star pupil for doing such silly things .
so really i'm stymied on that aren't i?
what i'll do today 
yeah you'll have to take those er those off and machine them all together.
you can use them on something else.
yeah well that's no problem.
what i'll do, i'll measure up today for er 
yeah 
the top material work out a plan for how much i'll want.
how much you need.
i'll try and get through the neutrally.
i dunno
yeah, how many have, have you got?
six.
six?
cos i might be putting a table in the sale on its own but it's a it's dark 
oh 
i it's darker than that.
oh.
yeah.
well actually it's mahogany, it's brown mahogany.
oh, oh, oh.
that's no good.
whether, you know, people might have bought them as a set otherwise.
yeah, yeah that's what it wants, someone with big turned legs 
w yeah, some, some yeah 
on the table.
you see them don't you?
oh well 
oh have you?
oh you're doing a good job there john.
how many did you say 
today.
what are these?
two?
no it's four.
oh four, oh it's a set is it?
nice.
is it keeping these are you or ?
for now.
i'm really 
yeah 
after a set of six.
ah, oh well yeah er 
but rea what i really want, is a set of six barley twist.
i mean it's gonna take me ages trying to find them anyway.
but i've got a barley twist table.
ah you see them yeah, yeah table and you want them to match in 
gonna make it er two eventually
yes, yes
but these will do, four of these will do temporary anyway 
yeah, nice.
but i want a set of six in the end.
i mean how often do you use six?
well we do, there's five of us in the family see 
oh i see 
yeah so
we had four kids i mean now it's only when we get visitors you know when
yeah.
there's only two of us, you get two visitors we're alright as a four
saying that we don't 
we keep ours in the garage, the extra two carvers
oh yes.
and they come down when you know, if we've got any
when you need them.
mm.
otherwise it's just a waste really.
well that's probably what i'm gonna have to do.
you can get, you can get sets of four can't you?
oh yes 
but six hard to get.
i'll just try and get two carvers to match 
yeah, that's, that's the answer really and er if they're not quite the same you can get away with two carvers can't you?
but er oh well yeah this is what got me, i like the er the legs you know, the the backs i, i didn't like at all because you've got this blue 
well 
you've got no no m no wood that's showing you see, that's the trouble.
yes, yes.
yeah
erm but i'm hoping they'll put them on a, on the table when we sell them in here and there's that's the first thing that'll hit them is the turned legs you see?
nice.
this is a su survey.
finished at one point but it's veneered
mm
but erm
this, but this was exposed then?
the material 
that, it's down to there, yes
oh that's a shame.
but this had been put on so it, it spoilt
oh i see.
yeah, yes so 
you know you'd got veneer and then you'd got really crappy wood.
the pine and that, yes.
but also people had put nails in the veneer and bits had fallen off and
ruined it, yeah.
there wasn't any point in me trying 
felt like a bit of challenge there.
well you know me nothing 
if there's any woodworking going 
is this today is it?
yes.
too late now.
yes, but you went last week so i didn't but they'd got stuff for you 
oh i i thought i had loads of 
oh ray!
never mind my fault 
sorry i didn't ask because i knew
my fault.
no, no
they'd got something for you 
actually er 
last friday didn't they?
this erm 
yes.
yeah, he got me some springs
yes well that's why i didn't ask because i assumed 
no 
you'd ordered everything
no
sorry.
i only need a bit.
i can get some from er chester perhaps, for what i want you know?
so er how often does this do they go to then, how often is this order?
is it 
er this is just one that i wanted some stuff and i said to a few people
oh you went round?
i see, yeah.
and they're delivering it.
i've actually the last time i got some delivered for me was february so i tend to sort of get something about once a month i think.
mm 
it really depends what i'm doing, if i'm doing a lot of stuff, then i don't need 
yeah 
to go because i've got all the hair 
loads yeah
but at the moment i seem to have done a lot of stuff with foam so 
i tend to forget, me, honest to god i think i've plenty and then you come to the you say oh god you know it's never mind.
well next time i'll remember you.
next time if you'd ask me, and i still won't know.
half past twelve!
i might as well go through on this, i was gonna go in that one.
yeah
i'll, i'll go, this fellow's moving now so i'll go in there.
so you've got a big garden have you arth?
oh, no
oh.
got a decent size back garden.
mine is, yes yes, yeah.
it's er birkenhead you live is it?
i live in 
oh you told me!
but you're a birkenhead guy are you?
no,
oh you're a scouser?
mm mhm 
what part?
eh?
what part?
manfield.
oh that was the, the rough part.
oh aye yeah, well i am rough aren't i?
highton highton i came a nice part.
rough are they.
never used to fight with lads.
they're a tough crowd.
oh yeah watch the showers.
yeah nasty aren't they?
actually now isn't it?
oh it has come lovely now, with the old sun but there's more to come i think.
er where do you live chris, you say cristleton is it?
no no i'm not 
oh it wouldn't be cristleton 
far away.
no erm really 
oh you're not a 
on the chester high road.
oh yes 
you know the shrewsbury arms?
oh yes?
well it's just
the road at the back 
gardens we used to go there 
yeah.
oh that's nice, yeah.
specially in the spring time when the azaleas are out and that.
yes yeah.
yes oh gardens is fabulous, yeah.
mm.
but now you've gotta pay 
you have yeah
so much to go in 
well we we used to join as a, you know, you could become a friend of gardens
that's right, yeah 
and it was quite reasonable.
now it's really gone a bit bit over the top i think.
mm pay so much a year.
so erm
yes.
oh i used to pay a year from when you from when you first started paying but 
mm 
i've missed the one in january now and i think, oh , i've paid for a year but 
it's a lot of money.
it's only odd days, it's it's perhaps lovely there in the winter when it's snowing and things 
i know it's absolutely gorgeous.
first seats will obviously in action have you seen the papers?
no no, the lady came to the house.
well the lady came here 
just knocked on the door?
yes.
yeah.
a , and said what?
and 
well just read, just read what it says there.
well i mean
sh , what she said to me 
you could probably save me reading wouldn't it?
yeah the doing er, say four, in this area but i there were three.
some down in the midlands.
i think that's the same isn't it ?
and we selected all intelligent looking ones.
yeah but 
bar one!
showed him.
so they made a mistake filling it in?
anyway, she
so we've still got the 
anyway he said so he couldn't do it!
well i'd only just brought it in the kitchen actually.
oh, i thought i'd give you a chance to put on your 
i don't care!
your posh accent.
ray, had it .
wasn't just for me i'd like to know him.
you can,.
careful!
totally, all the complications 
and of course, they've been absolutely abnormal.
you still going on?
okay, it's on.
no, not really .
wherever a description of youth.
well where have you been today?
what is it?
what have you been doing?
oh is it going?
it's good!
anyway, listen!
mm.
do you want do you want any help to do these posts that's what your down as today?
i think there's want it on don't you?
i just switched that on now yes.
so er so you had a good time?
what about
oh yeah.
full life?
i did your dad's figures as well.
he came home at the home didn't you?
he had to come home!
oh!
well i've sa , is it secret?
he went paul .
oh the other day?
mm.
well monday, wednesday and friday.
for those who were staying there i mean.
did you have any yeah, obviously 
oh well that's lucky i was gonna say did you have any
no, no.
paperwork to do at night.
we had some homework to do 
yeah she did a little bit, yeah.
so is there a, a bar there and all this caper?
oh yeah yep.
subsidised?
no.
no?
no.
i thought it might be like one of these clubs, you know.
we chip in.
i'm getting bloody paranoid about that!
yeah, that's the trouble.
but no tha 
but 
yeah , when are going back, yeah.
and this is just normal.
yeah, that's fine.
but seriously they want ten times whatever !
and the bricks!
ya.
where else can you say 
and we had 
it's not the brick 
not that old chestnut!
of course.
so er got the pads seventeen quid weren't they?
no, seventeen pence you could do it yourself!
what do you mean?
yes, well when i hear do the job couldn't you 
how much?
seventeen 
seventeen yeah.
you're kidding!
should of gone to 
to do they did mine for fifteen quid!
brake shoes and that dixons as well!
oh no, tell a lie twenty five quid it was.
well this 
fitted!
car.
oh emma's isn't fitted 
this is the volvo though isn't it?
expensive 
on the
volvos.
the price is usually cheaper than 
well renault first.
yeah.
oh was that for the renault in?
and the
yeah.
tried to give 
which you've gotta do the cos they 
not bad!
so much fluid in the grill.
and all the rest!
they tied the car so they could get in the vice.
the volvo .
it's alright to use.
sally said we had to anyway, i did one side didn't i?
yeah.
carefully!
open the ahhh!
then go do the other side
haven't got much of a bump!
and the er
there's nothing there !
no.
you looked bigger at 
honest, and stuff like that 
seems to going longer doesn't it?
yeah.
that isn't due for an hour there so january 
it snapped off!
so what do you do?
there's the calibre with the, with the gone!
so i 
don't !
i end up going to greenfield 
get down!
twenty five pound for a second hand one plus
ooh jesus!
seventy pound in the volvo.
i thought you were gonna say you've broke the engine mounting on the machine 
what can we do ?
and then you had to go and let it get a new engine!
this is bad enough!
all because of a brake that was 
don't joke about things like that paul, please!
but you know he'd got a huge parlour there was nothing wrong within this one thing and you know, we tried to drill it out you know 
what?
mm.
ha !
you'll knock it off!
the seating 
go on off, off, off!
we went down to the 
oh oh oh!
buy a bowl of stuff 
oh!
he said here are and tapping him over the nose 
he puts his head sort of, down 
oh!
the end of his neck doesn't he?
so, but when i tried it it 
very funny!
just all the luck of draw isn't it with things like that?
oh yes 
you've just gotta be
mhm.
!
if it's if it seems solid 
then you you got no
stay away from the !
pipes.
the actual hose is about that long.
it looked as though he it was all in one
keep him quiet.
and then i spoke to the feller, said aye!
is that the union?
it's supposed 
it's something there in a magazine the other week there.
found something wrong with his 
what animals do, like and what it means.
he said they just do.
and they were saying that when they lick each others 
yeah what does that 
you know?
apparently 
it's the the one who's doing the 
licking is looking at the 
but they tell you 
yeah.
whatever they do 
it means
is the turn 
i thought now erm sort of 
so i did that both sides so that 
like he's sort of saying that he's the boss!
li like the leader of the .
yeah.
could be alternatively older ones or something like that.
well 
well i'll tell you what ah, you'll never be er 
ja just rubbing and giving him 
oh, he could of er 
he started on my renault
subjugated!
and it's been running well since i just
they'd have to.
keep your fingers crossed and not 
oh i don't know i had a subjugated about that.
they do .
so
fair does like rather than 
mm,tha , that's why i didn't say like 
paying out for a
feet aren't they sometimes ?
and the brake pads had gone 
yeah.
yeah.
oh yes, you've gotta replace them 
they're sort of saying that you are really testing your 
i mean, i replace mine 
to see that 
but but the brakes
mm.
but they don't your 
but the brakes literally bleed them 
i mean your cat.
no i did that before 
yeah.
to do it's not very dangerous.
i hope so.
you wonder what that is 
same as you have in the 
a delightful thing to be i i think you was doing the same to cathy weren't you?
and, everyone goes cathy can the meeting.
well at the what's er 
what?
just walking back !
that i think will be 
perfect wife!
good heavens!
with the greenhouse .
what's this, the boy's brigade?
yes it is.
my god almighty!
here comes the boys.
where are you from, from mould 
cygerly 
cygerly oh, aye!
live in hope die in cygerly , ay?
well well i've got them all wedged in now.
oh no!
bu 
there we go right.
thank you 
okay!
thank you!
bye!
and
went to the hospital with a lady down the road
yeah.
and val was on the, got to be home from where you know?
oh yes 
yes.
yes.
i did phone her a few weeks ago and she said, ooh i'll have to see you on friday in mould you know get a 
yeah.
a bit of a coffee but er 
oh well, we were coming home on the bu , rest bus together.
oh yes.
well she's fine yeah.
yeah.
well.
still working?
she normally get's a in 
oh 
in wrexham.
is she still working at 
she didn't 
or
no on the ?
did she 
yeah.
did she work in prescott 
i, i thought she'd no, she went 
she's to 
she went to lesher didn't 
no, she told me she went 
she?
no, she told me she was in another place, i've never heard of it,.
i'm sure somebody told me that she was working with the trainee at er
oh, well she told me she was working, but i'd never heard of, some sewing place, it must be in wrexham.
oh did she?
but she said they'd laid her off.
oh!
ooh dear, so er 
but at moment she isn't working but she said 
in between.
for them to ring her back.
oh!
so she said they've rang her back cos you know i think she's going there again.
but i don't 
mm.
bretfords sh , well she said, i'm sure she didn't say bretfords 
no, i i think it was somebody i was talking to from bretford who said that she'd gone she was looking after the 
oh maybe, yeah.
trainees in leighbridge do you remember when they had them
that's right yeah.
for so many months i think didn't they?
that's right.
and then cos i said, ooh are, are they going to open up again?
yeah.
but er but it hasn't has it?
it wasn't anything no.
and nobody's taken the place over have they?
no it's just bought, well they've got planks across it now, save the cars turning round in there.
oh, boarded up the street?
well, you know
the, the access roads, yeah.
down street people going and parking up there.
do , oh!
what a shame!
i mean
and it's at the end it's 
the whole village relied on that 
got a sale board 
didn't they for 
yeah.
work?
i wonder what 
for sale or rent.
it's awful for the people that's at the wrong age, and too early to retire really it's 
yeah yeah 
you know early fifties and 
too old to get another job!
yeah, but it's all, christ 
er 
i mean you can't flaming well drive in, can't get out village!
no, when are you having driving lessons?
ohhhh dear dear!
oh !
is that another story is it ?
you want empty road you see when you're trying
one lady said to me take everyone else 
.
off the road and i'll be happy!
isn't he terrible!
oh!
i'm er 
is he 
i, yeah i go well i've started going again now er aren't very good!
he said to me should add erm you know like being 
bit like 
is what he said.
oh.
and he said you'll be able to go round the roundabout then i the flaming things!
so he said you couldn't have done!
so i sa have, so i told him what he said, and he said well that's exactly what it says in the book!
i said yes, well why don't you do it?
i said because in the bloody book there's no cars on the roundabout and i says it !
i said you bring me three o'clock 
you really 
in the morning i'll go round the roundabout for you when it's empty!
mm, that's it innit?
i said but when i come here there are cars everywhere, i says on on the picture 
there isn't a car in sight!
he sat there and burst out laughing but he said yeah you're right,there isn't !
did you tend to come on 
no well well i've started again now.
yeah.
i think it must have been the 
what's that programme that was on the other day about the erm ohhh!
where was it?
no ga , was it ghana?
about the trees?
about the, yes, this
yes.
exposee about the 
ghana.
er well that was corruption from the government!
well i suppose most corruption starts at the top doesn't it?
it has to for it to be festering at the bottom!
but erm
good grief man!
good lord ken!
you've gone to town tonight seeing all this!
ooh hell!
no not really 
er 
just a bit of cheese and a bit of pate.
you know it seems it awful really that two of those places were aren't they?all these, all the forest 
oh god!
fern and
thanks er
i mean if somebody did grow a tree i mean, it must be harder in that kind of area but but wi with the right will for people to plant a tree and grow it it's just as easy 
ahhh.
as chopping it down!
well, you know, i mean with 
up.
correct management they should be able to profit from the forests you know a as well replenish them.
and so unfortunately, it's the short term that's all they think about!
ah,it's not.
at the end of the day it's just greed and profit to gain 
if you want a decent tree to grow 
and sod tomorrow!
if you want decent trees it takes a long time to grow them!
well the hardwoods, yeah.
yeah,
mm.
i mean they don't grow overnight do 
yeah.
but even so, i mean even that can be managed.
course it can.
at the moment they just 
what is this ken?
that's german smoked.
you don't have to light it!
it's rather nice that!
is it?
we've tried this before when
didn't you try it at ah ah, try it.
i can't remember now.
no, i don't think so.
i don't think we had any cheese did we?
can't remember that.
ee ah trouble is you can't see where your cut is when you slice it like that it, oh here we go!
gosh they're going again with paul and cathy.
paul and cathy are going.
are they?
yep.
driving again and 
oh it's
when are they goi , when?
when have they booked for?
er
ooh i think i'll have a bit of that .
may was it?
well, i was going to say is it before ann has the baby?
it's when car , yes, no ah 
is it going to be, it's gonna be about 
er i'm not sure.
well the baby's due after may so if they're going in may
oh well it'll be a , that's 
it's before
oh is that pate?
yeah.
oh that's okay.
many thanks.
you can take that with you that er, if you don't use it up.
you don't like the pate?
it's no good to me!
well ray likes it.
oh these are nice!
i was born to a 
good life to 
born to a good life.
well what are you doing 
here then?
oh yes!
well it hasn't happened yet but still!
oh!
so was i, i was convinced!
oh he's even drooled over me look!
i wish!
and i was always convinced that i would
better things.
i was, i was left on on the doorstep 
the wrong handbag ken, you was didn't you?
for the rich.
i read that story ken.
yes.
what happened?
they kept saying that 
we what?
they never came back for me.
saying well here here's an ugly little bugger let's do a swop!
and they left me instead!
they took the ugly one !
so, oh well!
what's that cheshire one?
i haven't tried that.
perhaps er i got that
crumbly, is it?
i got it from, i don't know, i got it from holston's and i haven't had any from there before.
i went into that roberses the delicatessen part
mm.
and er they were queuing up there so i couldn't be bothered standing in the queue, so i didn't.
didn't get it from there?
i didn't stay there for that.
mm, that's distinctive isn't it the smoked one!
mm.
very nice!
i haven't had this particular one before but we used to get a little used to be able to get it in little about 
yeah.
tha , that big and er no, i expect the 
it's on don't, they reckon they can make cheshire anywhere now can't they?
no, it's not what it used to be.
there must be somebody who can get it?
get what?
cheshire cheese is not necessarily indigenous to cheshire now.
oh what,wha 
they make it in lots of places.
you mean it's been made in devon 
no 
and called cheshire cheese?
well i don't know about devon, i'm not sure.
no, i i do , i think it's erm
only made in cheshire?
i would have thought so.
you mean they're using the recipe somewhere else?
yes.
oh.
making and you
i don't think so.
over the over the road into
whatever!
whatever.
in north wales.
i don't know, i would have thought that to call it cheshire cheeses it must be
ain't got any ruddy north wales cheese or clwyd, so what ?
perhaps in the 
mm.
used,ya , you used to be able to get it and it would crumble it was rea , you know real 
oh yeah that was distinctive part of it.
that cor it was er
not like that now.
no.
i always remember going to, somewhere with ken this girl gave us a lump of cheese, it must of been cheshire.
ooh i i loved that!
they got this bloody knife and cut half the bloody cheese, i thought i mean, i'm not a polite person when it comes to food am i?
must of had about two ounces on the bloody plate!
haven't got the thing on now have you, while you feeding yourself 
no.
up?
munching !
he's one of the little munchkins!
and then, when he was eating the
putting the marmalade on his toast in the hotel the knife
and licked the knife!
ooh, oh!
you scallywag!
i mean you do that sort of thing at home don't you, but
you scallywag!
oh christ !
yeah!
yes you are!
it's just how he was brought up i suppose an 
i remember reading this book it was partly, it was about the german navy
mm?
and er sh , you know the test before they could become officers they set captain set the table, you see the and they have this food that they know how, how to use the cutlery, this was one of the tests of being an officer.
oh yeah!
mm.
you know, to er they didn't know how to use the cutlery, and, they were, they we , yeah 
which piece to use for which course.
they weren't, they weren't gentlemen so they couldn't be er they couldn't be officers.
mm.
oh there's a lot of that well done wasn't there?
it's called the class structure.
yeah.
or system.
well, ironically his creed was supposed to be without that wasn't it hitler?
you know, this supreme race but all more or less equal.
well no, that wasn't the case!
he wanted to create a supreme race didn't he?
no, but the er the germans they were the supreme body weren't they?
he's he's and er he wanted to create a super race.
but the army was run on the old style wasn't it?
of course.
you know, they were the they were the er the masters of the army.
oh well, this was the main course ray!
and then of course the air force, they'd be one up again i suppose.
ah well then maybe
you mean the luftwaffe?
mm.
mm mm.
the .
well this is 
luftwaffe.
betty.
mm.
unfortunately there seems to be a resurgence of of this now doesn't there in europe?
yes.
this right wing element which is
terrible!
it's frightening really because you think well you know, i mean you said the years well that couldn't happen 
well 
again but but how long does it take before it does happen again?
i mean, do the other do these things happen in cycles and tha you know, is it possible that it'll happen again on a greater scale?
a grand 
well 
scale, if you like?
it er i mean, it's having grounds now because of the recession!
yes.
that is, that 
yes.
is what brought it about er in 
setting the stage for 
in one way, in in
although it hasn't it hasn't come to that in germany, i mean we'll probably be the poor man of europe at the moment aren't we?
in this country?
ah but, i mean it's biting in germany now because they've got all east germans!
that's yes, yes, that's true.
biting before that weren't it?
where 
erm 
they've had to close down the spi ,and that.
and of course, when, when they when
this of course is exacerbated.
but the going gets tough it's it's easy to blame minority groups and this is what happened before wasn't it?
like on the ruddy that's all they're doing now, bringing all these turks and god knows what!
ha!
i mean, even in france, and i mean, in fact, in fact 
east germany, poor devils they 
in france it's more it's worse in in some respects because er it seems to be more powerful the erm the rate of you know, the feeling of .
i mean what can you, what can we do?
if, it's happening, i mean what was the soviet union i mean it's
well i said to margaret, i wonder 
news on it it's death and destruction there isn't it?
all these minority
i wonder
groups.
with the western groups after the euphoria of saying oh there, well we've cracked it now!
we've destroyed communism.
are they now regretting it?
and, i don't 
to some degree.
well
no, no i think they've 
and, and the fact that they don't know what's gonna happen, how to contain all this 
well i think in some respects 
stress.
they, they wanted the downfall of communism
oh they did want it!
but nevertheless it's better the devil you know!
but, having said that you know, that i should imagine that the military are regretting it.
well i mean, the military will definitely 
regretting it, in in the west 
didn't actually want it to go this far.
because it means a reduction in forces in in all these 
yeah.
countries erm, and as you say, i mean ha you know, whether they're american generals or or the soviet generals, whatever er they're all, they're all feeling the pinch now because er
oh i didn't mean that, i mean 
at the same time it, i mean the countries wo , have been crippled by the the burden of er defence if you like and we'll call it defence.
and they have!
erm, but in fact it's probably for some of the state that we're in now!
but er
i would i wouldn't sa , i wouldn't of said 
there's a price to pay for everything.
that you see they have created the jobs!
yes yeah but i don't know, it seems crazy to me when they've 
well that's false economy that!
there's such you know sort of appalling need
yes, but that was the get,
that was your get out!
or the or the er boost in the, in the economy you know but erm 
yeah, but i don't think
but i mean they were mo they were making 
might work in our economy, but not in theirs i don't think!
well it hasn't!
but instead 
oh no!
of getting on with the five years plans they've put too much effort into producing war machines!
well and this is it i mean, where we could afford it they couldn't!
well can we?
look at america!
well
they've got greater means, i know 
no, they, they could of they could of afforded better than the
oh yeah!
you know?
yeah.
only just.
so, and unfortunately erm well 
i mean they, they were exploiting or they had they had the potential exploit more countries than russia did.
oh course!
that is er
oh yeah, they colonised all these places but it makes you wonder, you know, you see all this unemployment and of course this john major's in his answer now is ooh well it's the same everywhe , it's not, not here, it's everywhere!
they don't say why?
well it is.
yeah, but why?
but
oh but i mean that is not 
the concern, and that is not the question,i the question is what are you going to do about it in our country?
what are 
exactly!
you 
mm.
exactly!
but i mean the have an excuse don't they?
well that's that's it you know that er it's an excuse.
i mean, it's a convenient excuse, that is 
course it is!
that .
i mean i was reading in the paper the other day it was on about recycling
yes, just a please.
and the different counties 
say stop!
and the way they've approached it and some 
yep.
of the more progressive ones, you know they've er addressed the problem of rubbish and recycling wo erm one spokesperson for somewhere like milton keynes, i think it was said there's you know, there's no money to made out of ri , recycling
no.
and yet he said
not at the moment.
that they would save erm on the erm actual tipping of rubbish
how isn't there any money 
because 
to be made out of recycling 
well well this is what
well at the moment it's so dear 
well what he meant was 
to
th , i mean he said they 
process it.
we are not 
well 
we are not dealing with anything that we cannot 
in the short term.
sell.
in 
ah.
other words they were selling glass, and they were selling metal back to whatever and manufacturers to re-use but in terms of collecting and the cost of collecting it all and and 
that's expensive!
handling all this it's, yeah.
the cost that they were having to bear were greater than what they were actually getting back on the sale of this stuff.
but, at the same time the normal sort of refuse if you like, disposable was being reduced because
that's right!
these other items weren't in the normal refuse collection and therefore they were going to sort of reduce them from a weekly collection to a 
well that's if 
fortnightly collection, so they would be saving in that 
well that er 
but not saving to these 
that's if 
particular firms 
that 
that they want.
that's if 
no.
mm.
that is their own fault because according to, there was a programme on there and it was saying they, they must be selling it to these firms that recy , that use it
mm.
they must be selling it 
well they will do.
them very cheap because it was sa , this programme was on about recycling 
no thanks.
and it said about tin cans and aluminium and that and it was costing them less excuse me to use recycled you know er used aluminium
mm.
and used steel cans and that it was costing them less to use that than it was to use
brand new stuff.
yeah.
yeah.
so, i mean to me, i don't know whether i'm right, but that my first thought is that they must be buying it very 
it's gotta be profitable 
they must be buying it very cheap then?
mm.
mm.
so, so the people that are not making any money out of it by doing it are selling it to them very cheap so it is their own fault!
i think initially er 
it's only it's been cheaper to 
now has got a cost more in the initial 
well it does 
stages until it's sort of, set up, until everyone is sort of you know geared into doing this kind of you know, like all the glass goes here, all the metal goes here, all the goes there 
well yes, because they're not 
and all the companies that are responsible for for re-using it and all the distribution network is set up for collecting an an sending it from here to there you know, once that network is going then surely 
oh yes!
it's gotta be useful because instead of going you know from one sort at one end and going out the other and never being ever seen again it's going 
that's right!
in a circle and, and surely that's gotta be cheaper once a network is set up?
and it's a, it's an ongoing thing 
yeah!
you know i mean, oh oh di you know i mean it's to theorise, i suppose but i mean all it takes really is to have three bins.
yeah.
you have your paper you have your bottles
you know alright initially as you say it take, it costs but
to set it up 
it does , to set it up,yo you have you have, you'll have to have three, three what's his names?
three, three bin men to come and collect it.
mm.
or no, you have to have three containers.
but they do it in canada!
well this is what i'm saying!
yeah.
but i mean 
even even got one 
you see 
for plastic!
but, but there well yo , you could have four, you could have as many as you like
mm.
but i mean surely, in the long term
course!
but that co 
idea he doesn't drink beer, so you can have his for
well no,but i mean like 
but that's the key word is the long term ken!
like you sell, you sell that back to them that that pays the man's wages that is doing it!
mm.
mm.
but it's the short term isn't it, with them?
they just thinking well we haven't got the machinery to cope with this!
it's easier for us 
no the 
to buy the new raw material and process it 
yeah i said
and it ah
ah but 
but yeah, i know but the 
well this is the 
this is the way the government's gotta act now!
ah well, well this is it 
well this is it it, it has to be done!
they won't!
generated the 
this is the trouble 
it's a joke!
this is the trouble with this country because it's has has 
i mean look at germany!
yeah, but i mean they will make progress, i mean this colony 
and 
is would never 
mm.
advance!
i mean that's why we lost our moto er motorcycle industry
yeah.
it's why we've lost most of our industry because they won't, they won't invest in new machinery or mo , new methods!
modernisation.
i mean they've 
just won't look ahead!
you see it's the same as they said on there we've had all these inventions
and they get by our country.
and they get, they get in this country and then they go and exploit them in another country!
mm.
so where's the 
computer's the finest example of that produced 
but 
in manchester!
mm.
this government says ooh we can't afford that, no, it's a it's a gimmick!
the yank says we will!
bingo!
and look, this used to be
we could of held them to ransom!
one of the best education systems in the world!
and i mean 
i know, it isn't now!
won't be here now well you could sliding right 
i know!
down the scale!
mm.
we're terrible!
we're way behind 
germany, france 
you can only cut back 
russia 
and prune back so much in the name of efficiency before sooner 
well 
or later things su suffer!
there was, there was a programme on channel four there to i was watching before i picked my book up and they had conservative labour bloke and the independent er liberals and these were supposedly they have on on er channel four a a programme called week in politics anyway this night, this, tonight they were doing a a fu , they had a floating audience, supposedly a floating audience 
you mean, they were under water?
flo ,fa floating vo er voters
oh!
er until, until the end and they had a poll of er who who has been persuaded to vote for the three la , you know, what had they done to 
oh they had to to say who they supported and 
vote for the three, that's right and there was one one put their hand up for he persuaded them that ne , neil kinnock would be a good leader, that was it er so one put their hand up for him one put their hand up for major and she had the cheek to say
that that is only because i'm a conservative!
and it was supposed to be , if the audience was supposed to be voting 
and i mean but the quite the majority of them er put their hands up for paddy ashdown.
yeah he's a very persuasive character 
well when and he wasn't on he wasn't on, but he he at the towards the end they gave the three of them thirty seconds to describe the go , you know, the qualities of of the
of a good leader.
of of of er their leader
mm.
and the one one for the libs he only used twenty seconds, twenty two seconds!
and he finished?
and, you know he said i'm sure paddy ashdown would think that you could of found something else to use the other
to say.
eight seconds up !
but er but he ended up, you know as sure as they've asked er the 
something to say 
the show of hands, like he was er he was the one that the floating voters were
yeah.
but 
i mean 
but only 
he, he looks a very persuasive kind of character doesn't he erm i mean he's, he's quite sort of erm well a nice person well he 
yeah.
seems to be!
but er 
but you know 
well see wha wha down there was a couple there in their leather jackets look, looked a cli couple you know, the boy and girl couple of yobbos!
looked a right couple of yobbos and er well what day is it like?
well he says er how could you vote for kinnock he says because the press attacks him and he doesn't defend himself!
but your dukes up neil!
you know!
yeah, well 
and this is the mentality of them!
childish!
i mean ha when it comes down to it, at the end of the day today we we live in er a media orientated world don't we?
we turn on the box 
well 
and we we see what is fed to us there, we pick up , you pick up the you know, the comic strip papers you know,yo you see headlines there, most of it is is you know tory sort of dominated.
orientated.
but er that so it depends whether you, whether you actually think about what you're seeing and what you're reading and 
well 
what you're hearing doesn't it?
well i mean, i i take the express
mmmm.
and
they say that ad , it pays to advertise i mean, to me advertising has never done anything for me well i don't think it has anyway but if it pays to advertise and look at the number of people that read the express
what do you want lucy?
you know, the that would 
what?
convert a lot of people if they 
oh yes!
definitely because it it is
no!
you know, i i i don't, i don't look at the first four pages in the express cos that's 
no.
all it is!
it's running labour down
yeah.
same old stuff!
and yeah.
well in a 
and 
way
how good john major is and how good
mm.
and the tory, you know they're giving them victory because they they supposedly we're we're up to the, up to as many er we're level with the with the labour party now.
mm.
and they are, you know, this is a victory!
yeah it's pathetic!
i i i think really they er they forget that that there's a quite a large number of the population, they do think about what's going on, and they're not all children and they're not and aren't all that easy easily persuaded.
but, having said that there is but there are, but there as well!
no but i mean,the there's but there's a lot of people, you see when you say they're not easily persuaded that are working class that are voting tory and they're not easily persuaded they cha 
well they did, i 
just changed their mind!
mm.
well having seen a little bit erm was on the other day and i i mean i i must admit i touch shut up you!
nothing to do with you!
a lot of what's erm you know, going on now, i mean, is just gonna go off as far i'm concerned cos i mean i've already made up my mind.
yeah.
i'm a loyal supporter!
well that's it!
and that's it!
but erm you know o , i mean it's, there's so much analysis and what not, i mean i i think most, most people must do the same a lot of them have made their minds up and the ones who haven't either don't really care
no!
or they're so serious about it that they'll probably be watching everything, you know, just to sort of make sure that they know everything about 
yeah.
every party!
yeah.
and making sure i get the right one.
but i think the majority of them just won't bother anyway, to watch
no.
they've already made their minds up and a and definitely a lot of people vote on on on basically the choice 
on the spur of the mom on the spur 
well 
of the moment, on the day 
think well they've had long enough now we'll we'll have a switch you know 
or or the they like the look of the bloke, they like his photograph
and they'll go and vote for him!
that's right.
and i mean there's that been that much publicity about neil kinnock you know, or anti neil 
yeah.
kinnock publicity.
but er, i mean a lot of people say ooh, you know, i wouldn't trust him with it!
and they didn't really know anything about the blooming bloke you know!
well he's never been 
of course not!
in power before well 
it's only what they've read in the newspaper!
neither has blooming john major you know!
neither has blooming maggie thatcher before she came in, you know!
i mean it's 
well i mean you've only got lo 
they'll be a first time for everything !
you've got to take the way her
wack 
her image changed
wack a wack a wack!
over the years
mm, yeah.
the voice the 
mm.
shape of the shape of her face and hair.
in fact i think that spitting image dummy was more like her than she was!
you you loo , you look 
mhm.
at the years how she changed, practically every year!
her image changed.
well it started to become like er
a a little what do they call them?
these dolls.
yeah.
what do they call them?
barbie doll.
barbie doll and that's what she was.
well no, not as attractive as a barbie doll!
well no, but 
but 
i'm but the style was there 
she,i it was it was becoming like a dictatorship!
it was her at the helm
ooh well this is what it beca , it did 
and 
and th the so called democratic, you know, choice of all these poli , all these mp's and what not which would comprise parliament and government and head of the tory party at the time you know i it really their voices on the, on the the cabinet you know, they were, they were just destroyed!
well, you said you know you, we were on about germany and, and becoming you know could it happen again?
if if she'd of had her way she would of been the dictator of this 
yeah.
country, and she would of been in power forever!
oh i know!
you know that's, she would of been wanting to ma , make her life president or whatever it was!
i think she would of done with the que , er done away with the queen to get
yes, i think there was a bit of competition on there wasn't 
yeah.
there?
i'm convinced 
but 
she wouldould!
yeah, i mean
if it meant her staying in power that, i mean she 
well 
would of done it she would of got rid of them to make sure she she stayed there.
yes it came to er
are you tired?
a fine state of affairs didn't it 
no, i'm alright ken, yeah.
with her even her own party giving 
well 
her the heave-ho!
well this is it.
you know, i mean tha 
she was they i mean she was go 
that's how it must be.
she was going too far for them
well
she must of been.
well this is it i think she was beginning to endanger her chances of re-election and i think 
yeah.
they let her go on too long and it
well to be but er 
and er 
but they did let her go on too long!
i mean it's turned into a bit of a joke now really 
yes it has.
hasn't it?
you know, our policies are working, i mean after thirteen years
well they've had long enough to do it!
and this recession that we've been coming out of for so many years now it's i mean it's just turned into a bit of a joke!
they're all making money for themselves aren't they?
that's why i'm suspicious 
well 
of the labour party!
well
the labour party?
no, i don't
the big shots you know!
money in the bank
no i don't 
well 
whe whe when they're small they're ken 
i, i 
but once they get a
well ah now what have i said to you ?
para power corrupts i know.
mm mm, yes.
and that's the way power corrupts.
but, well it's what i've just said!
yeah but i mean 
that's true.
you'd never agree with before!
no you we , you was relating it to to power in this country to any country and saying 
any country.
it was exact, identical.
well it is.
and that's what i disagreed with.
it is.
i i said 
it is 
you can't compare the ca , the power like just say in a place like turkey which is absolutely rotten!
they got no law at all, or very little with, with the 
well it's corruption!
ooh yeah!
i mean, if a little kid in the in the 
and that is, that is what 
in the in the playground er
well that's what it amounts to!
you know
it's corruption!
coerces some kid into selling him his marbles, that's corruption isn't it?
but there are levels aren't there?
one one is more 
extreme than the other.
so we've got corruption in us probably so it depends upon the degree 
well, yes we have.
but you don't expect to get out of the ruddy 
aha.
socialist party!
because 
why not?
because i said to yo , i said to you that it was the same in russia!
and how much corruption have you discovered in the socialist party?
the labour party?
have i discovered?
you mean have i seen 
well how much ?
on the television
yeah.
these people that
well what do you 
talk with two tongues and say 
well what do you know about them that you say they've 
yes.
they've got er 
what do you base your i , your 
what happens when they retire?
well what happens when they retire?
do they end up working the way we've got to bloody work here on this tiny pension or the pension that they've earned as an mp 
well have retired from the labour 
well alright 
party.
harold wilson, prime example
yeah.
rich man!
lord wilson
yeah.
socialist, i mean
well how da , how do you know what ?
they're supposed to be against all that aren't they?
wait a minute!
how do you know he's a rich man and what do you class what do yo , what do you base in rich ?
well a man that's got more than one home for a start!
yeah.
well er 
because that's erm
you must have been rich then a couple of years ago?
when you brought a second home!
now don't talk ru , you know what i'm on about!
no, i don't, no!
i don't mean a bloody home like that!
no,
er, wait a minute ray!
he's he's, he's lead a public life
mm.
so he can write he can write a few books, he can go out there and talk
mhm.
so he earns money, is that a, is that a corruption of his job?
no, well talking to earn money, no!
do you agree?
yo , i mean
if he er, if he gets paid by 
it's the same 
the hour.
it is the sa , it is the sa , it is the same as maggie thatcher going to america now 
course it is!
and she's 
yeah.
pa , and she's paid half a 
well i 
million pounds for her 
well tha that that is 
yeah.
worse isn't it?
so i mean, er i dunno 
but it's it's the degree 
how can that how can that man as a socialist justify earning well i don't know what he gets, but we'll say he doesn't 
well 
get as much as thatcher, say he gets forty thousand
well no, i didn't know no you don't 
oh, now wait a, wait a minute!
now i, i have said to, i have said to you 
he's a rich man 
that everybody 
and he shouldn't be!
everybody should earn the same.
mm.
but you all said that it depends on his skill or his what's his name
or how many kids he's got.
if i've got twenty five kids and you've only got one yo , i need more than you!
so how can you possibly all earn the same?
why not?
well you wouldn't have enough would you, to su sustain all those 
yeah.
kids?
why?
you'd have to get enough to live on.
i can't see that!
i mean er
no, i can't see the argument!
well, to me you shouldn't have twenty five kids anyway!
well that's dictatorship 
because because it, i would have a dictatorship on that!
i mean that's, i would have 
well that's, alright well well that's 
control of the world population, i se 
i would limit to two children.
i would er, have control of the 
that's another argument!
world population.
well fair enough!
but 
yeah.
that is another argument!
it is, we're on the road .
that is er, that would mu , that would be my first priority.
oh !
i thought your first one was everyone getting 
i'm not go 
the same pay!
yes, so everybody 
so 
would need the same pay.
but no matter what you'd, you know at the end of the week or the year or whatever 
no, but i mean i mean 
there's all those people who have the same pay, that at the end of the year they would end up with different amounts because people would manage money differently 
differently 
some would spend it
of course they would!
as soon as they get it 
oh yeah.
some would go into hock and spend it before they get it 
before they got it yeah.
some would save it, and be frugal!
alright, alright then 
which is what the tories want you see 
what i want 
i think the trouble is 
i want 
no, you're defending them!
i won't give anybody any money you can go to the shop and buy what you basically need.
you see yo 
no but we're devia 
your 
we're deviating on the subject 
well you did because your, straight away you go onto money which is our god isn't it?
well, no but you said it was corruption
yeah.
and i've only yo mentioned, well you mentioned money because you mentioned harold wilson
mm.
with two homes and you said the money they get!
yes.
so you brought the subject of the money up!
no, no 
mm.
but you're on about something else, you said the first thing i'd do, that's got nothing to do with harold wilson the first thing i if i were in power
but there would 
which 
be like i 
yeah.
say, we're deviating on the 
yeah.
subject!
no no no but i'm pa if 
so go on yo 
i were in power there wouldn't be any money no need for it!
then you 
well i 
wouldn't have all 
i 
the arguments!
i know that!
so you wouldn't
yeah.
say that at all!
no.
yeah.
and what would you do 
but in the case of these people that start off 
so why why should 
fair do's they start off in university, clever blokes and a lot of them worked in the mines, shinwells what's his name?
beven miners 
just for money!
well i won't say beven because it's a bloody shame what happened to him!
but never the less a lot of them started off like that didn't they?
another one is foot.
ah but er he 
and as they get into, as you say, power and i quite agree somebody has a talk with them so look here
we know
we know you're a socialist
but you still earned a few bob to get on.
but er, you you we're gonna make you a nice one and join the bloody club so you'll be an armchair socialist and we look after you and that's what they are!
callaghan is another example two or three homes big jim with all his bloody money what does he care about working people?
and this feller kinnock's the same, you can see the style of them!
i think he must be 
bloody big cuffs!cufflinks!
i think you i think you've been saying 
ah well, no not 
saville row shirts!
no, you're making him it's 
i think if you 
mistake, you're making a mistake there!
as the leader of the labour party or the liberal party 
you have got to keep up with you've gotta keep up with 
to go 
image and how to be 
yeah.
a leader in this country!
no, you haven't!
you can't expect, yes you have!
foot never did!
you have!
michael foot?
what did he, what where did it get him?
well you just said you just go you just said you've gotta give them a 
how long did it last?
how long did it how long did it last?
are you, are telling are you telling me that you'd vote for somebody in rags on the television who promised you a better future?
i did!
what do you mean you did?
voted for foot.
who did you sa , oh!
you sod!
you did not!
and he was never in power anyway!
he was, he was the prime minister!
oh he was 
well!
not!
he was never the prime 
he wasn't, michael foot?
oh i know he put in there.
oh no he
he should of been.
he's never been president of 
he was very outspoken he was a very outspoken 
he should of been!
he was leader of the 
but the first 
bloody only the the way they should dress!
ah, yes well ah, that's got nothing to do with it!
oh!
but now it has!
i mean he's probably got more money than they've bloody got!
the it's all a blind anyway those rags he goes round in!
duffel coat, he got he got censored 
there's 
because he wore a duffel coat instead 
well it's like 
that man underneath a duffel coat 
what did ken say about this chap from vauxhalls?
convena did all his work and they asked him to go to london you know, there's some was on years ago so he goes to the headquarters and he said he just couldn't believe it, he turned on him and said you're a shallow bloody hypocrite he said!
those lads down there they're fighting living on their ruddy strike pay and look at you lot!
he said they were there the whisky was flowing you know hypocrites!
and he said, oh come on you're here have a bloody good 
well 
time you know.
on your argument then anybody who who works their way up through the ranks and gets to the top has gotta become corrupted!
that's what you're saying, no ma 
well if there i if there in a 
no matter who, no matter what !
if they're in a corrupt society and when they get to that position they they don't do anything about it and accept 
well they 
it and take 
they don't 
the bribes, well yes i agree this is the 
yeah.
the 
yeah.
basis of the mafia isn't it?
ah, you see if if you don't, i mean it's not, it doesn't happen in, in every walk of life but in big business and in politics if you don't
you have to modify your 
i'll tell you , i'll tell you how 
no, no if you don't tow the line 
exactly!
if you just don't 
if you'd be elected 
yes and you don't modify you what happens?
you don't get anywhere!
you don't get elected which is what happened 
well 
to the labour government 
no 
last time!
oh well, oh well apart apart from being 
no.
elected
fifty percent of the population
apart from that 
wanted control on nuclear weapons, or wanted to abolish nuclear weapons but they the the labour government didn't get in on that basis so they had to modify their and i mean as 
well you can use that for any argument then 
but i mean but what what 
can't you?
what i want
do everything the tories do because we're not gonna get in!
well 
well well no i mean it's not 
well that's what they've bloody done near enough!
well yeah!
and another thing that i fifty thousand 
the, they it's a 
mean time all the vil , all the mines are closing are they gonna say well yes well
well well we've gotta do that because be be being practical.
well i think it's a very being short sighted thing to do to erm 
well i i think i think you'll find that well if labour gets in 
i mean it's 
they will, they will scra , they would find that most of the 
i hope they'll rescind that.
mos , they wo , they wouldn't rescind it.
what the mines?
yes.
they wouldn't close them.
the closure of the mines.
no!
i think
well they can't close the ones that's already 
don't you think so?
gone in eight 
oh!
nineteen eighty one can they?
they've 
oh i know!
gone!
closed!
well 
yeah but i'm, i i know i don't 
well some of them certainly 
and they closed one the other week that's flooded now 
will definitely 
so that's 
yeah.
i don't think that this 
they, they won't they they wouldn't 
can't rescind that!
they wouldn't bring 
but i 
money on the mining 
and that goes for a lot of businesses!
i mean, there's enough coal in the united kingdom to last for another two hundred years!
yeah!
and that could possibly be the only, and ah i mean it's it's a
ah but
it's a dirty fuel to use at the moment but they're all, there are means being developed even now on 
well i've no doubt in twenty 
i mean 
years time the tories will re-open them 
much it's it's far 
at at great cost to us!
ah but you see 
nothing to stop them!
that it's 
well 
very short sighted to get rid of that now!
i mean, we're buying coal which is subsidised abroad so therefore it's cheaper for us to buy it and bring it in, but what happens when all, all our home supplies have dried up 
i know i know
and we can't them any more?
well
you know we , very well what'll 
but what happen 
happen!
when, when that market's been pruned 
alright 
down and the only 
what happen 
place you can get it but the price is !
what happened in nineteen eighty one?
they're so short sighted!
what did bob say about the miners?
when, you know when that strike was on but it's like a lot of people
what did he say about the 
ooh that 
teachers?
bloody lot of, bloody 
lot of clowns!
arthur scargill bloody clown!
now 
yeah.
those fellers fought to keep those mines open and they got one of lot miners divided and said oh bugger them!
the fellers in the midlands was it?
yeah.
yo er notin 
yes.
nottingham round there?
st. helens
ooh bloody no
wa wa wa wa wa wa wa 
and they ploughed twenty five million into their mines and said your jobs are guaranteed now fore , forget it you know, you're alright for thirty years what .
now they're closing the bloody things!
now, you know we sho something should of happened then they should of prolonged that strike to destroy these buggers and said no you're not gonna close them!
but the peop lot of people agreed with it!
well of course!
they said they weren't being 
but 
realistic!
what do they do, they divide and conquer ray!
yeah but why should bloody intelligent people go along with it ken?
that's what gets my plate!
because they , because the intelligent people weren't involved!
no i mean, i'm talking about the people who are not actually er, you know 
i i if 
concerned directly but give 
but 
their approval for these 
but they're 
people.
they're not involved, the people the people that give their approval are the people that want it!
and i mean er, and 
yeah but i mean 
and also they, they get the masses on their side by the media!
i know!
the same as they're 
exactly!
doing now with the i mean what paper have you got?
i know, well there you are!
a labour paper!
this is what terrifies me!
and what's, what's er what's your chance?
the mirror.
where's that ball gone?
yes.
bring that ball here!
you got no bloody chance!
but as i say, people believe everything, it's gospel!
and you never hear the labour party criticising.
you know, but they should be criticised out of hand what's going on in this country but they bloody don't!
well when when if if the labour party criticised and they do criticise
oh they criticise ken, yeah.
the only time that you will hear about it is whe , if you have the television on and you see it happening on the parliament and on your papers.
well you read your paper don't you?
and we get a middle of the road one which is the observer 
we we'll watch 
which is, they get some they do some pretty good
but how often do the i mean, they they don't give you they don't give you every detail that's gone on all week!
oh no they're or there's certain ar 
they only pick
a certain subject or 
yes.
whatever that's been thrashed.
as you say , we'll see.
well he's gone on seven days of the week complaining about so and so we'll just narrow that down to one article about his his complaint that they may just make a little note he's complained seven times about this!
so you see a little article 
that's right.
he's not complaining!
yeah, but i mean basic things ken, we'll take for example 
the low wages
yeah.
we, we haven't got one now, they got one in germany, they got one in france i in 
yes.
italy.
well yes.
oh there we go, that was mistake number one george dear have you read the er holiday page at all?
no not yet, er only about france, and i told you about
oh i'm not sure
the
oh dear
places you can go to
mm
which is a fallacy
i thought it was barry there, he looked a bit like him.
no he's trying to get up, get down naughty boy.
e t get down, down.
down there, there's a good boy
if you tell him sternly, he does understand the tone of your voice if he goes off and sulks for a while, well so be it you'll have to sulk till you get used to it, there you are.
in the u k mm, yeah, all looks very nice, camping
joking aren't you camping?
well that's just what it looks like here you just eating al fresco and going back up to the chateau at a night 
oh we're back in france again are we?
mm
yes 
well 
oh i see, yeah, yes it's
mm 
it's not a cheap holiday by the time we get, get down there your petrol
well for us i mean it's
and then the ferry across 
it's not so bad for somebody living on the south coast
yes
but er, as you say erm, really it's such a long journey that you need a breather before you need to start to cross the channel
oh yes i think so a good thing you're inviting ken didn't i to come with us?
yes i did mentioned it erm
did you to ken?
well you were there weren't you too?
i just mentioned it in passing and let the conversation carried on about something else so i, i don't know whether
we didn't come into it
well, i mean we just said well that's, you know, an expensive place for a holiday by the sound of it, but erm we hadn't got into any details.
well this was erm bulgaria
yes, yes
mm
but er so i, i don't know if he'd be interested in.
i certainly wouldn't coach it so i think you would be creased by the time you got there in two days.
yeah but of course if you were being serious you'd have to ask him directly wouldn't you?
oh yes, yeah, well i, i, i think we'd have to to begin with to er get something a bit more concrete, you know, about time, time 
yeah 
cost and what not, and then you know when we've decided i mean i'm not particularly bothered whether
comes along or not, but i just thought it might be nice to to give him a break away from home and he won't go on his 
well i mean you're only doing it for him really aren't you, that's the idea was to help him 
well this is it, he won't go on his own will he?
but the only other thing perhaps he'll go with one of the kids, that's a possibility 
yeah possibly but i don't think they, do, they don't, i mean they, they lived in germany for a while haven't they, so, i don't think, oh no, didn't they go to cyprus one year pete and colin or am i dreaming?
italy
did they?
yes florentine
or near venice
that was when he was posted in germany wasn't it they went from there
yes
that's right, yeah, but whether they i suppose to be in a position to 
what they got 
afford a holiday now, i mean now they've taken on a mortgage 
yes that's a point 
so, you know
that's a point, yeah
so unless erm
even if we 
tell us we 
went away for the weekend we could ask him along couldn't we?
well that's true, yes, yes, i mean that's the lakes, it's lovely up there isn't it?
and it's only an hour or so away, so perhaps you should say that
get a weekend in 
i wonder where there is a cheap place to
where you can old furniture.
somewhere where you, where you can go, where you can offer to do the washing up for that afternoon if you get bored 
no i don't mean that i mean, i, we can find old shops that, are not fully conversant with the modern day prices of furniture
oh no 
all furniture 
you've got no chance
mm.
no i mean, what is he, different
in there, operating in, especially in the what were the eastern country, erm standard of living is
oh there yes, no i meant in this country
not on par with ours is it?
i don't think, i don't think there's anywhere left now, there might be somewhere but it'll be hard to find.
have you noticed all these holidays in italy all tuscany, you never see any
a lot, yeah
from southern italy at all do you?
oh you see a lot of them from erm
oh i mean i know you can get the brochures, but in the papers there's 
paediatric coast don't you?
farmhouse in tuscany, rows and rows of them.
you see them for rome don't you?
not very often, not in here
is it tours?
not very often, not really
oh i mean the, the favoured place for the holiday makers is on er on the coast that was er gisebelle and erm
mm, what's the other one?
catonica
is it rimini?
rimini, catonica all on the
coast, which is er the black polish isn't it?
yeah
mm there's a photograph that was in erm karen's radio times, those two girls erm going on a diet.
oh yes the
erm
the very big lady 
er, yes, yes, forty minutes on er b b c, have her stomach stapled
gosh
sounds drastic doesn't it?
does it literally staple the stomach on the outside or does it
well it, according to what i read before, they say they staple the stomach down to the size of er, of a tea spoon, so presumably she, her stomach must only receive, she must of been eating twenty four hours a day, you know, to keep they, she didn't lose any weight, the other girl did, but er
but i still like
either that or, or the capacity re for your stomach expanding is, is er incredible because er, she still, you know she still doesn't lose weight 
i still like to know how they staple it.
yeah yes, i don't think you er you can measure i don't know, i mean if they staple it they close it off, er
it must be an operation or
oh eh, just to staple have a another operation lost twelve stone, god it's like having, losing another person isn't it?
oh i see so it is a case of open you up and putting, inserting these staples must be
mm she was, what, what are you doing?
stop it
sounds a bit drastic
said she, she's going in for her fourth operation presumably to have this stapling done again, she says i believe that she'd be far more counsellor, i, i would of thought she, she would of had counselling anyway before they go to stage of operating, surely, i mean, er don't they look in into sort of psychological aspects of it, it's usually a 
on the concept yep 
more than just physical reason i, i mean a lot of people are grossly overweight they, you know, people usually say oh it's the
but now apparently in most cases it's very rare with that so it's gotta be too much eating and why do people over eat 
that's right it's usually too much eating or lack of exercise 
you know, i mean, there must be compensation for something mustn't there?
yes it's er 
i must record that wildlife on one on er, tomorrow night, so i'm in wales 
oh yes 
have you read any of your letters about the poems in last week's observer?
no
they're not very flattering they didn't er, you weren't rated very highly i'm afraid i think er you tried to get away from the traditional type of
oh i see these one that they send in
mm
yes i er 
by the thousands 
i don't go a lot on them myself
oh poetry some of those poems that bon had in her touchstones book, especially the ones, the war, about the war, i read some of those and it made me cry, it was so sad.
oh the, the er the ones by erm what's name
about the gas and that
oh to be honest i can't remember the
mm, very poignant
mm, but er
anti war
what was the one about the erm oh it was about the assembling of the gun
oh yes, oh 
do you remember that?
and it's all about the parts naming oh naming the parts
that's right yes
and er
oh yes that one's come back to me that one now
mm
horrible.
there's a chap going on about the, the fake and the furniture of these two chairs
mm 
which are supposed to be erm 
come here
seventeenth century
come here scallywag
they said to this, the er, the shape of the stretchers going from side to side where you, where you can put your feet usually
mm
you've got all this wear on them you see and the bow of these stretchers said that no one would a able to get their feet on
and the guy that's faked it has done all this
as he thought, authenticate it
what, what they call it, stressing it don't they?
stressing it, yeah stressing it
mm
and er it would of been impossible to rest your feet on the rail them performing the most uncomfortable
contortionist, it says here
oh 
mm 
but did it look authentic with the thing, i mean not to the extent of 
well i mean to the untrained eye with a , this guy was suspicious when he saw all this cracked varnish
yeah
which it turned out to be wax
oh
to simulate old varnish you see?
oh
so then he started looking
yeah
they've got a way of measuring wear on er stretchers
yeah i mean it's, it's so clever really isn't it how, how they do sort of er fake furniture like that.
i mean to my mind you might just as well spend your money on, what are you doing idiot, on a well made piece of furniture today like some of those we've seen in, in
beautifully made erm, i mean they're brand new but they will be antiques i suppose in the future you know for your, for your grandchildren sort of thing, but er i mean you can't possibly think what's
things that are in there, it's astronomical.
mm, quite expensive as you say 
mm, you silly dog, what are you doing, what are you doing, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, right, right, then, yeah, yeah, yeah, get him, right oh he said that heaven
mm
yeah, you do huh, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow,where's muffin, behind the settee?
yes mm 
did you read this erm review about ruby wax?
no i haven't read that yet
she's is a, quite a
character actually, mind you she does er, it looks like one of those programmes you know er, when you don't want to be sitting in the front row, if she's going to
mm pick on you 
single, single you out for attention she say erm,miss wax who likes to think of herself now principally as a writer,the comic talents of this calendar who needs laxative.
come on e t, come on babe, come on, do you want to go out?
go out?
wait a sec, let me get my yeah wait a sec, let me get my coat ah, down stay down, good boy come on, ok, ok, you're going now, yes .
taking for walkies margaret.
mm, mm, yes
are you coming?
well if i take him you can do the veg if you like get down
i see, i'd just thought you'd might like to go.
well i will but i doubt this, oh god i've got heap of things to do 
right lassie
you wanna go to the shops now or what?
you're going are you?
yes 
what's that?
do you need to come or
well, i think all i need is bread really isn't it?
so i
mm
i'll keep an eye, spend your money.
e t won't hurt you.
hello there, this guy is that nervous honestly, he loves other dogs, but er, they seem to frightened him, you know, he's a, till he ge ts to know them then his ok, you know?
e t, come on, he's only young your chap isn't he?
yeah
yeah
i've got two of them, the other one's er cut himself on a bottle this morning, he's been in the ve t all day, he's just had 
oh no 
his leg stitched up.
fixed him up alright?
yeah.
mm, how'd he manage that?
i don't know he just somebody must of 
they just 
left a broken bottle
clean cut right down the bone
oh god
so, he's out of commission for a couple of weeks.
yes, it's er infection really isn't it?
yes
and if he's anything like this guy he's all go 
oh yes he's just like him
e t will you give over, come on
you don't le t them do you?
it's a bit 
he was ill treated you know, and he was
yeah
we got him from the rescue, animal rescue you know 
oh yeah 
so he's a pa , he's a bag of nerves really, but er, most of the time he's great, but,i think your, your one's a bit too boisterous for him 
well enough.
take care anyway,come on e t 
that's right, yeah, yeah.
oh he said er
oh that's not so bad you see i've been on holiday all last week
oh, where you been?
i haven't been away, but i've been off work like 
oh just, oh i see 
so er
holiday at home?
yeah called me in two days so they gave me today and tomorrow off as well, so it's sort of gone longer than i expected you know?
mm, mm 
i'm off tomorrow as well.
well it's always nice to be at home isn't it?
please yourself 
get down, get down oh yeah, yeah.
i got through quite a few bits and pieces that was
have you?
all the jobs you've been meaning to do
yeah, yeah
yes i know
hello there
good afternoon
how's the family?
abnormal
yeah at one time we couldn't get jessy to talk, he'd got a little girl with er and
i noticed the little girl with her, yes.
she waved as she came towards me and she said oh can't stop today
huh
said i've got to get this one back for her mum or whatever said i'm in a hurry then i met some guy on the field, talking to him and er
who you don't know from adam
a spaniel which was off the lead, covered in mud a young one and of course these, this fellow went straight up to it e t
off the lead like?
off the lead and it was er, so boisterous up and down like this, well he didn't like it straight away he got the old aggro blade up his back about two inches wide 
then he was watching him like this then he ran
away from it or
ran away from it you see and then when he came back he came to us and he growled a few times at it, so, but erm, backed off you know
i said he he doesn't mean any harm i said but he's a bit nervous, hoping to god he didn't bite the, bite the other one 
spaniel , yeah.
he said in all that, we got two he said the other one cut itself badly this morning on er a piece of glass obvious he said managed to come back to me you know being on a lead all his leg was cut so he sort of been down to the vet and had two stitches 
stitches 
so he said i've had to, they'd have to keep him in for ten days or more you know
mm
stop him getting dirt 
keep going 
in it or whatever
yeah 
yeah , erm, it's worth waiting to
i saw mr bentley
mm.
and er he hasn't got any stuff there of course 
no.
but er, he said oh try the guy
try?
the chap in mold, whatever his name is
robert .
i he said, he's an old type chemist he said just mention my name he said he perhaps fix you up with small quantities or try this other place in wrexham he said they, chemist he said but they do wholesale work as well 
mm.
so, and then he was going on about the work he's doing on the
yes i thought he probably would.
you were nearly at the end of the tape as well weren't you?
i thought afterwards i bet that tape would run out when you're talking to and won't be able to turn it over.
mm, i don't think so but er he's had an awful struggle with that because he said buckley's one of the worse places and no interest at all 
nobody's interested no, it's a shame 
said er , they said wrexham they've got two or three you know mu museums for, and that different halls he said er 
well, there was talk about er getting the old hall down in the old street community centre, not the, the 
yes 
what is it?
what do they call it that hall?
hawkesbury hall
hawkesbury hall, yes 
by the school, yeah 
but i mean it's, it's still a sound building, i mean it could be 
well it's been no, no, it's, it's condemned at the moment it's not safe.
is it?
oh yeah, you're not allowed to go in it
oh oh they've just locked 
but er 
locked it up because er
he said they've er
so did she say she could get some?
or
said she'll ask, said she knows she's got
giving an errand to take out to the place you know because er if 
well it's dangerous stuff to handle i suppose
mm
but as you say wanted a tiny amount anyway so
it's a joke isn't it?
you know
mm
several of us at college 
oh well she'll know by tomorrow night, you could her a call 
you would think 
tell me that much
which pub?
at the college?
well yes it's only a small amount for you, but er how many students are there?
well that's the thing yeah
you multiple that by 
getting in a little bit 
however many there are
there's about six i think
mm, even so i mean he, he's still got to buy it ain't he?
even so, yeah
so er 
oh they've probably got this much you know
mm, i mean has he recommended that you use that 
he, he got 
or are you 
oh i 
just taken it in out of the book?
no that's what you've gotta, you, he showed us
oh
said the stuff you're using is
rubbish
old fashioned he says, it's got linseed oil in it he said, how'd you get it off?
mm
you know
that was the trouble you had with that table top, do you remember doing that polishing?
and that, and this, you kept getting this er
oh no you, you can use this, but you 
oil through 
don't use that for polish you use a special oil, but he says don't even use that.
oh
his brief seems to be, put as little french polish on as you can
mm
put, and then wax you see, now this is what we haven't seen yet
so just use wax to build up the polish
waxing to, well not necessary to build it up, cos you, you've got this sealer on first you see
mm
but you can
that's what he does, but, if he want, i don't know, he have to
yeah sort of thing, so i have heard you say only three is that the number of posts they put in?
that's already done innit?
well, cos with him being on night, i don't suppose he got up till about 
he started just after me, yeah 
one o'clock, yeah, there, and there were huge holes in the
i mean you, you ask him if he'd erm arranged for a cement mixer and he said oh no he didn't want to bother, but i thought afterwards that'll be each one of those holes, he 
he says oh a ton what are we going to do with the
yes
or 
well that's right, in fact he might even need more sand
he will
but i bet one of those holes will take a whole wheelbarrow full of that
oh easily
concrete and that's got to be one mix each time isn't it?
because what i used to do is throw the bricks in and concrete and water 
and water 
erm, no i mean apart from the concrete it helps to fill the hole
yes
so if you just put the 
well 
the sand and gravel and the concrete as you say a barrow load goes nowhere
yeah
i mean, huh, they never get blown over, but er, it's a lot of work isn't it?
where's little tiddly gone?
where is he by the way?
erm i said to you he's on the settee 
hello, hello, hello 
if he's on there just shout at him will you because
oh he's in here
he's by the radiator aren't you beaut?
he's a beauty babe, oh, rascal aren't you?
would give you that continuous conversation, erm where is, is life is it's surprising how much time you do have to put into it.
i mean it surprised me i thought oh yes
one and a half tapes a day, yeah, it's, it's a doddle, but erm, not, not only have you got to know how it functions, but you've got to know, know you've got to fill in your, your document
yeah 
to i mean ideally, ideally it'll be better to fill it in as you go along
personally i would of
well of course that's what vitamin c is isn't it?
well acetic acid is you know the chemical
you know, it's got to be three third, er thirty three percent you see
oh
which the vinegar's only about two percent probably that 
oh my god, well that's the stripper then really isn't it?
you're only, you only 
well you only put 
putting that much in
oh
in this, in like a pint
mm, so you only want a small amount then really don't you?
that's the trouble, i don't need a ruddy gallon
mm
and the other of course is the eight eighty ammonia which is only half of five mil, two and a half mil teaspoon.
which chemist did you go to?
bob's
oh, and neither of them, no e t will you stop it you two, you see
aye
get in your basket this minute
i thought, i thought the other one had got it 
go on , go on.
when you think of it, these chemists to date, no wonder their wives are on a low wage and the moaning all the time because they're not bloody chemists, they're just getting pills out of a box 
yeah, that's right , yes, yeah
you don't see erm doing this but, well after that, i mean 
and er, well years ago they had all these bottle of potions on the back shelf i suppose
they were mixing up all the time, it's all antibiotics now and isn't it tablets or 
mm 
bottles of
already, ready mix
there's a jar already done, you just pour it in
yeah, i suppose and mostly to erm, medicines are, are in tablet form aren't they?
you know you don't get that many liquids it's usually for children isn't it?
ninety percent probably
the erm you get 
the only liquid you get are probably cough medicines and stuff like that and
yeah
which are all, er what they called?
i bet they don't dispense much of that now because most people buy it over the counter don't they?
oh their own, yes
i mean you're not going to spend three pound forty on a prescription if you can get a bottle for about one pound fifty so
where you do it
so well where you gonna go for that?
where else can you try?
er well i was gonna ask for
when he comes, gonna ask or ask
at the college do you mean?
they seem to know about it, the ones who live in that area and
the chemist
mm
he's an old fashioned type
well why don't you try mr bentley i mean
he's bloody finished now
well the shop's closed, but erm, he might be able to tell you somewhere nearer than
to get it, i mean he's very obliging.
he lives over the shop still doesn't he?
or at the back of the shop.
he's a proper character isn't he?
mm
but erm he might be able to er oblige you, he was certainly one of the last of the old breed of chemists i think
a tissue in machine, bits dropping in and out
look in the pockets you great pi , oh
i think there's probably one inside a pillow case knowing you
oh jesus, maggots i caught a few
there might be a fiver in one of them
you've got no chance of that
hey did you know this
yes oh god muffin you're not going out again you're covered in mud.
i suppose they get fed up stuck in all the time, don't they?
yeah, and they're only out for a few minutes and they're fed up out there as well, and backwards and forwards like a fiddlers elbow go on i want to put those lupins in
today, somewhere never mind, no, you're not having any more biscuits you right i erm, i see it's ten past eleven, i want to get this ball washed, so, er, let them go in the wash 
right i'm going to work in the workshop
i'll tell you what, i get the erm, i get the battery of the, the other one, you can try it.
you want to try it don't you if you're going to have it?
well this is it, it might be knackered now those two 
has he been in the, in the loft in the workshop?
or
no.
well you, it's not corroded or anything is it?
let's turn that down
can't turn it out.
power isn't it?
yes, but you won't get the same connections will you?
i don't know
use your
fantastic that
pause 
i'm looking for something somewhere yes, well it appears to be working, but whether it's working correctly i don't know oh ray, there is provision here for the headphones, you, you said are you supposed to use headphones with it, mind you it sounds pretty audible anyway, i don't think you need headphones, i mean i'm not sure there's a
no
see how she goes.
erm
thing is i've got to try by turning those volts down on some of them
yeah it's just that find out if there's any nails in the, in the wood.
possibly have
stones
you're not likely to get stones em embedded in the
oh i mean whether, whether that one is, is good enough for
enough
mm, and it 
the nails in the wood that's all
oh yes it's, it's, how long ago was it when robin bought that?
eleven or twelve wasn't he?
near that 
say this er i think
mm
have you actually got a plan drawn up with measurements, devised to the top and the base as well or are you going to do that when you
i got the height of the base, you've seen that
yes, yes
use that for the base obviously 
muffin be quiet, what the devil's wrong with him?
it's that much bigger so, you know just see how the top one goes and then i can copy that to the bottom
yeah, well you're going to do the base of it bigger aren't you?
yes
erm
er the only, i'm not quite sure yet how the sides are going to 
and the door , the glass door he wanted it erm like the lead glass, oh similar to these
yes i know he wants it erm
you know
glazing bars
mm
there's no way we could use it either of those, panels that were the glass panels that we've got in the garage, no, separate them, i mean it,
they're not, they're not solid glass, they're two panes, which could be separated whether of ingenuity and
what re-cut you mean?
well no not, not, well we could get them, i never thought of that
cut them they wouldn't be the exact size
yes, ah that's a point now, i could take them down to erm, what's his name down the road and ask him, he's very obliging, ask him to cut them 
i don't know it depends er 
i was just thinking rather than having plain which you'd have to pay for anyway a plain piece of glass and, and er putting lead on it yourself i think that's a brilliant idea that.
well the idea is, is it's not so much the lead
it suppose to be the
bars, i don't know what they look like without
old, old er
it's a diamond , it's a diamond pattern isn't it for
yeah
as opposed to the, but, but some cupboard doors are diamond pattern, muffin will you be quiet have we any more bones cooked for them or have they had them all?
no there's some there
cooked?
oh that's what i mean, erm, well listen we'd better try and just, practice somehow and see erm
what do you
erm 
are you gonna left that battery on
well, well only temporarily, i only want this
it's alright it's just this unit thing, when connected to
right erm, just erm
it just drops in there doesn't it, hanging
oh i would of thought there was a rest for it surely, no?
do you think so?
just down the bottom
just down the bottom 
right what you're going to have to do is erm
get a piece of wood with a nail in it
yeah, yeah
i tell you what get a hold of that and put something underneath it.
i don't know, it don't seem to react to that, that's a bit, mind you there again there's only going to be that there isn't it?
er, well, put it on the floor
go in your basket go on
yes, i cannot give it much more
re-allocated, i might be able to get the two sides on, but i'll need more, obvious have some more wide bolts for the er top and the bottom
so er, what you actually got to have it cut now, what have you?
those four
mm
to that section of the
oh these are about two inch are they or some, didn't say
it wouldn't split in half went for it and
twelve inches across are they?
that way
they seemed quite wide to me when they were leaning against the wall.
wouldn't sue do them?
she hasn't got a
hasn't she?
i bet she had, i bet she had er
no i know she's got a
you really want one with a three 
i thought she had a band saw no
i was gonna say you wobbling all over the place aren't you?
and what about duckman peters wouldn't they do it for you?
er, mm, the other time i took stuff down there
huge, to that their costs mm
i'll have to pay
mm you've got to pay for the teeth and the saw
thirty pound a tooth
yeah, god worse than
erm
mm, how many have you got to now cut?
and you mean to tell me with all that equipment the machine that they've got at the college, you couldn't get it done there?
i haven't got anything that deep, the
only goes to about five inches
what can you do, can you do half at a time, can you
no
why?
at one time you could of done, but now, you've got to take the guards off
to reverse them
and turn it over
well i don't see how, all you've got to do is turn it upside down, you could still run it through the same way
to make your first cut
yeah
you have to take the guard off and the
knife at the back of the saw, they, it is a bit dangerous, erm where's the guard goes at the top
mm
just wouldn't go in would it, unless it's being stood right down
mm
cut turn half way, the first cut, then turn it over with, you've got to have all the, just got a bit of the bare blade on the bench you see
yeah without a guard on it 
without a guard and they won't 
mm, mm
allow that on this stand
no i can understand that i suppose
but there again it's only hand feed, you've, you got to have a, a machine that can feed on to take this tubing 
something to grip it, mm 
we would have to like pull the wood through you see
what about that erm, what about that other place that er timber place on the way to kilkern erm we went there, you, oh you went in to ask about some walnut, do you remember when er
well er that's the same, that would be worth thinking this you know 
don't think you'd be very happy you know
i mean you wouldn't wanna pay no be only worth a fiver to cut it, to them it's not worth
damaging them, saw, mm
well at least we've had a look at the whether we
right ok, so we've eliminated all that have we?
well i mean 
what are you gonna do?
i don't know
it's impossible to do by hand 
no not impossible
with a good saw
yeah
and about ten irish navvies
one down below and one above huh
mm 
try to get some er old door casings rip down from me you know, now, i was thinking of going to north wales but i know what they'd say cos it, the ones that i got from our rob's you know the they're quite clean but of course they've had nails in the, you know, the head like i made the cab some cabinets you know.
i want them split down that road
which way?
on the deep
oh on the deep
two or three gorges
oh you want to fetch it down to a board technic
that's so i can get two out of the one you know for the sides, erm, sides and
oh you want them to deep, deep, deep 
i don't think i'm gonna get that much joy myself, cos their reluctant aren't they to do anything that's not new.
i thought there might be somewhere where they'd have an old circular saw you know, probably got a bit more chance with help, but they do a bit of rough cutting do you know what i mean?
yeah, but you won't get two out of it will you?
but
well they're only for sides, you know, i'm, i'm doing them like er
i
the sides are coming out er like this you see
those, those are already you know like that their fortunate with those
i, i like them
but, but i haven't got enough you see
yeah
but er
you won't get two that size will you?
you reckon not, not with the cut, it's, well not that i know it's, it's got two
it is a good er about one and five eighths
oh i say, yeah, you, well, you'll get one, you'll get a second one there, full one there 
get a full one, get it doesn't matter really and i get one that width out of 
yeah, yeah 
here you see and it'll all be joined up.
it's, it's a band saw really that you want to put down
mm, they're not really safe
yeah,
a band saw are you now are you?
i got the old metal detected on, but, of course it could always be a bit of grit in it couldn't it
yeah
or something like that.
i know they don't like it
no, er, no especially with a band saw, cos
oh hello
hello margaret, well 
twenty years ago and, and, and they really had to
and the whole band saw gotta to be resharpened he said and they go to a place in
most of them don't do their own now do they?
no
we used to have a shop you know, a saw doctor shop
i
when i had the time, did them all tension and set, you know, but erm, as you say now, they probably cost you about fifty pound a go every time they go away
yeah it's a
i don't fancy doing by hand
well, even that little one of mine
no i mean even with a hand saw, you know, i've done it before
you had to wait, wait about twenty eight before you went on top i believe i don't know
yes, yes, oh yes
and er all his brothers ev , every one of them went, they served their time and
and er, it was er, the others were by having the lads and getting the trees down, er the extra wood that they got out of the er, out of the tree
they lost so many with, with the thickness of the blade
oh i see, yes, yes, yeah, yeah
that's right, yeah
i think
bloody hell, that must of been hard work that, they must of been at it all day
yeah, yeah
how did they keep, how did they stop the flaming thing from snaking them all, you know?
i don't know
it must of had a good iron in it.
must of had terrific arms on them, oh dear me
yeah and i used to see them many a times in
and what they'd leave them to what, then to, to dry wouldn't they at least?
oh i, yeah 
they'd take a long time to dry wouldn't they, then, on the sticks and that
stacks of it
and my father was in the woods before the war and they, he, he looked after the woods and cut the trees down and everything and then they were sent to
oh no, slowly, dried slowly you see 
slowly to dry it was always as, as he went up to about a
for pupation, yeah
i'd like to seen how they did the, the ribbon book out of the heart
oh yes
used to do a lot of drawer bottoms out of it
yes
must of had a knife or something to it, sliced wasn't it?
mind you i'm going, i've got a pub
nice to see there, there was a certain way of cutting the tree 
this is going back 
to get the figure into it
i, a cut
on the diagonal
yes
you see, a diagonal, the
raise so you've got a lovely figure in the, on the oak,
yeah
but expensive that was
yeah that's right
cutting waste with it, as i say the ribbon stuff it must it, the georgian furniture you usually see that in
yeah
this wide drawer bottoms you know, beautiful oak that's been sliced
yeah
because that, presumably the heart was easier to cut, i don't know, very hard 
i wouldn't of thought so, it was
i wouldn't of thought so
the
i'll have to find out of this
where, where i found more so were
that's the oldest part isn't it?
that's the oldest part
that's right on the knife
and the er
whether the grain was straighter, maybe that was the answer
and the awkward thing was to hack a wood in the centre
yeah that's right, yeah, yeah
an american oak is not too bad
but the english you can end up doing a lot of scrapping for your finish
mm
and it's just only because of the climate, there's er
cold weather, the, oh, is that what it was?
that's right, yeah, he's, he's
mm, mm, funny there was a lad here
this chap was here last week he bought this pine table up, got his key, and he'd been working for three years in norway
oh yeah
as a joiner
yeah
and he was saying, told me some of the different names, you know, other than pine, i suppose their name for whatever these pines were, the timber there was beautiful
yeah
the er
all the
knots, very few knots, just lovely yellow pine and er and they make all their furniture out of these pieces, so, he said that's what set me off on making furniture he said
say that the cost of living there tremendous, tremendous
ten years ago now they took out these tremendous mortgages because their wages had trebled, it, it about a ten year period, you know when the boom was on
yeah
a few years ago, and he said er there was a lot of repossessions there.
it's happening everywhere you see.
you could buy a house very cheaply then, but er
we, we didn't know what was going to happen
that's not all you can do now is blame the labour party, it's incredible now.
one of them said er
when they start bringing the
yes, yes that's right, lower
lowering the taxes
everybody come here, this is the place to run a big business
yeah
cheap labour
yeah
you can fiddle all you want, get away with it, er
i
well nor you can't help me on this me old son
er
it's a shame really, no he bought about erm
i'm not even gonna volunteer to do
about erm ten of these and then the head
so apart from those three we said what else is there ma 
no, well he's got a catalogue and we can send
no, that, that catalogue he had i rang them and he 
sent me one
beeswax was it?
pure beeswax, what else?
i bet that was a 
it was pure restoration materials
yes
i've forgotten now
i'm sure that's where he said he got it from the
wax
he said he got his waxes fifteen years ago and he's still using them
oh
i think he gets all his stuff from that guy at, he got the brochure didn't he from somewhere up north?
yes, well molly's just said she's rung them 
well yeah, well i've got the brochure 
oh
i rang them up, it's, it's bolton, but they don't do
wax, they do all the other waxes 
bury isn't it?
well i'd try time and
bury the one?
they caught , i don't, yeah actually
the address i had
yes.
oh well i'll, i'll look, i'll ring i didn't actually ring 
i'll find out anyway 
them up and ask them 
and actually you know this time chemicals, they, they deliver you know, they come here with the stuff.
do they?
just ring them up, oh yeah, they go anywhere.
what is the recipe i 
bury ,, bury
mm
that's a good one isn't it, dear me, that's er
oh no, but, they, they will post it
post it, but then they're gonna charge aren't they?
oh yeah
vat and for a small amount it's not worth it really
one of the dogs gone down there?
i am sick and tired of picking up the mud 
hello ken 
oh, we're trying to see if any pick up the nails in the wall, you know 
those boards trying to get them split down you see to make some, you know, shelves and that
no, not really
does it work?
it's got the battery in it 
well i'm not sure really it didn't seem to go to good on the cast iron nails you know the long ones
well, they would have showed a wider picture of the actual picture, and apparently they take,co , the photographers had taken a baby away from it's mother he's standing in the middle of a desert , and there's a picture of them with a baby and all these photographers photographing it !
sounds a bit like that baby !
yeah.!
oh he'll be splattered by a in doncaster !
when you get a you get a dozen prisoners who are !
mum we start wednesday.
you were pining upstairs.
i wasn't pining!
yes you were.
!
oh fiddle.
that's particularly dirty word!
oh god!
he's gonna be quoting fry and laurie for the next ten weeks, like he did 
with ben elton!
is that granddad's watch?
yeah.
i put a brand new strap, but the new strap was too dark for me.
too tight across the shoulders so i'm gonna have to 
got me a large strap for it.
you know if, that top that's too tight across the shoulders,can i have it ?
you can have it for five quid.
can't be bothered to buy anything.
i owe you twenty quid.
i even bought a top .
got any money?
one, two 
yeah, yeah , i've got the money.
i owe you thirty pounds.
i know.
you said you didn't want it.
i did not !
at the time.
do you know what though, i need to get some more money for the devon trip in soon.
i didn't say i didn't want it again.
i don't want it 
i'm not i mean so
when is that 
i could always 
that devon trip then?
february.
what are you going to do there?
god knows!
visit a nuclear power station and
oh that's interesting!
and sewage works and things.
oh the jobbys!
we did have a .
plenty of jobbys !
yes.
did anyone fall in?
no.
we , it was when i went to, when i, we were doing something with maps when i was at school and they were trying to find out what, it was the, where the local rates where the money was spent for the local rates and one of projects was taken down the sewage works.
ooh it smelt!
it was awful!
and erm, we're gonna go but i paid, i've paid the deposit so
it'll be a case of 
just the
i tell you what .
but i er i , if you like, i can pay the thirty pounds and then that'll make us equal.
well let's have a think.
why?
do you know what she did?
yeah.
oh!
she's made a big parcel up in the
you don't honestly think that i couldn't help 
in carbonara do you?
no, a bit of a stir while i just jump into work.
alright.
i'll just put some of my money .
this is going to be awful!
tuesday night couldn't we?
and how much is with that?
only about four pounds.
er one pound .
no, cos there's a pound.
bless you.
bless you.
bless you.
mm.
i see.
were you, you know,we , do you on erm
were you on work,
and we can work with this er, we for my dad died.
well, it came on erm it was coming on while er, you know the da , the day he died and i went into work?
mm.
and it was coming on then, but i didn't think anything of it, cos i, i hadn't had, hadn't got anything to eat all day
mm.
and i was upset and i thought it was just that but no, it was about two weeks before that i went down with it.
i got my period due.
is that one got hole in it.
is that going to be no good?
have to be careful it hasn't gone off.
that's okay.
chuck that one that over for me.
mm.
is this off?
it smelt terrible didn't it?
yeah, well it would help, it needs parsley you see in it.
i haven't got any, they wo , i couldn't get any fresh parsley so i thought that might just give it a bit of colour, but i've got dried parsley if you'd rather use that.
well can you chop it up?
thought i had done.
oh!
put dried parsley in next time.
i told you, see!
what's all in here?
i want a little thing to crack into.
mm.
in there.
you haven't gotta separate the whites and yo yolks yet have you?
oh.
oh yo, blah blah.
beat the eggs with the cheese .
it doesn't say anything about it being separate.
no.
whoops!
i'm not helping you do it.
i'm determined to this you know.
i put, well it's cos you'll be that's, that thing it'll be like prunes.
you know with that that looks very creamy with the cream on it.
mm.
put it, oh yeah.
so i actually had to buy the, the cheese.
oh!.
mm.
didn't she realise what a sacrifice when i asked him to make it.
it smells alright.
that's alright.
good!
pardon.
good.
what time is matthew gonna leave?
dunno.
presumably he's telling the girls today is he?
something?
yes.
is that to put this in?
er, well i'm not sure.
i haven't made the sponge yet.
yeah, i think it's 
well i'll , i'll put it in this one because if it will half smell 
well i'm just trying ,co cos the cheese has got to go in there as well.
i know.
just to make sure they haven't gone off.
well if that's gone off then you just have to 
well it hasn't, but
no it would 
but that one's gone 
it 
off.
yeah.
so you put, you, that ones alright so you put it in there.
okay.
then you do another one and put that in there.
alright then.
heat the oil and fry the onion and garlic until soft but not browned.
add the butter and bacon and fry until crisp.
add the and simmer 
right.
till it has evaporated.
meanwhile 
have you got that that 
cup of tea here dad.
cup of tea have i?
yeah it's here.
it's over there.
cook the spaghetti in boiling salt water until just .
smells alright doesn't it?
then drain 
yes.
it with some hot water.
beat the eggs with the cheese and the parsley and season to taste with salt and pepper .
don't forget so i could actually start and do the ba , bacon actually couldn't i?
aha.
yeah.
there a fair amount of parsley in there isn't there?
yeah.
yeah.
it's only a small piece you know.
it smells alright.
mm!
you smelt it?
then beat it.
right.
two tablespoons of oil so
is it big enough?
yeah.
i don't listen to what she does actually.
she says it's quite nice.
she said something about, she should have added or something but i can't remember what she said.
what's
hello jenny!
put two tablespoons of in.
mary, mary, la la la la la !
mary, la la la la la la !
mary 
do we need a salad?
no.
you'll need, yes well you'll need a sa 
we haven't got a proper salad, i shall have to start ju , shall i leave salad?
yeah.
leave salad for now love, yes.
i got some gravy on.
oh yes, we can have some to mop it up, yeah.
er, now, i asked you the table set haven't i?
no.
oh!
please can you set the table?
yeah.
are you going drippy then?
no, i'm tired!
oh.
no i
alright.
so i'll save this one
where's the, where's the tray?
that's already through there but it 
oh!
has to be set, cos your dad was using the table.
oh i see.
okay.
who are the cadbury's creme eggs for?
oh!
er, i got them, matthews cos he we , that's another one pound fifty he owes me.
to give mrs for the erm but don't tell anybody that i got them, you know.
cos 
to give to mrs for doing the
yeah.
well he said can i, can you get me three erm walnut whips for mrs and i'll give you money?
well they hadn't got any walnut whips in sainsbury's so i bought some eggs, so .
oh!
.
can i take the salt and pepper through or do you need it?
oh i'll , i need that as it goes.
throw them away.
that's each 
so what, what we do here then elizabeth is
the garlic and the onions are done together.
we'll do those until it's nice and soft as it said.
oh sorry!
erm heat the oil and fry the onion and garlic until soft but not browned.
add butter, bacon and fry until crisp .
so, see, so, i see so i've got to fry the bacon till it's what?
crisp.
you've got to add the butter and the bacon and then fry them until crisp.
well how am i going to get the ba , how's, how am i going to manage to get the bacon crisp without getting the onions cra brown?
well it says add.
so presumably you just have it on a low heat.
i don't know.
i think you'll find the bacon will cook erm brown 
mhm.
more quickly than your onions will.
alright.
that's the right amount int 
mm.
it?
pardon me!
well yeah.
that's on er with the spaghetti.
you can start on it this year if you like mike!
ha!
awfully sweet of her isn't it !
you know, i'm sure the bits of bacon isn't brown.
it's not.
this is the first one.
it's not.
!
the next time i'll just cook it!
i don't suppose you gotta remember about all the which you should have, i mean they they just er be a, a sort of .
i know.
but they're
well dad being a peasant, well maybe
dad sent off some money to the erm help the aged hadn't you mike?
have you?
yeah.
they sent this thing through costs twelve pounds in a third world country to to have a cataract operation.
mhm.
and it's, they've sent this piece of plasticey thing just to look through just the same effect as somebody who's 
oh!
got cataracts.
where is it?
been sent off now.
but you haven't you got the plastic or anything?
yeah, the plastic's in the bin actually.
but, no,we well i don't suppose they want the piece of plastic back.
in which bin?
well the one in the erm
in the living room?
dining room.
in the living room?
it's the one in 
dining room.
dining room.
oh!
can i have a go?
not gonna make any difference to you, you're so blind !
go on jen!
go on!
go on!
do you want to go outside?
sling her out elizabeth.
out you go.
sherry!
oh.
she's gone out, out of her own free will.
oh they're terrible!
ooh!
how awful!
just imagine it's twelve pounds
mm.
.
so you sent twelve pounds?
mhm.
you're sure lovely!
mhm.
we forgot to do it.
we can't do this really till he comes in.
oh!
he better not go to cheryl's again!
i think he has.
i don't he er .
the gammies!
mm.
does it taste alright?
yeah.
fine.
and vic sometimes puts mushrooms in his as well doesn't he?
oh!
not always.
could of done.
shall i see if we've got any?
well he doesn't always put them in.
well no , don't put out the recipe the way it is way, and then er add.
make sure that works then you can see if
so much for creative cookery i should think !
ah!
actually there's, there's enough liquid in here to stop this going brown.
that's probably why you have to add the extra butter.
oh dear!
my eyes!
losing my .
i'm going to get cross!
ha!
she said don't want everybody to .
and then says mrs .
oh!
you can have the wine in .
oh.
that's what i like to see, no
yeah.
then you say is that right?
oh morning derek!
you alright ?
mummy wants her baby boy home !
still it may be unfashionable to go for the majority anyway.
have you just eaten matthew's 
he's very 
sandwich again?
yeah.
i think he did.
he's perfectly clean though.
can i be , mix up the cheese and put the eggs, and put the milk.
well if it looks as though it needs a drop we can always pour a drop in can't we?
i remember ida said it needed something, but i can't remember what she said.
well i'll phone her, i can ask her if you like?
no, it's okay.
i know vic has cream in his and
how do you know?
well it said so on the menu, that's why.
it said, the potato had some cream in it didn't it?
and in the er
it's ready now.
let me see it.
go get some cream.
cos that's gotta be done .
is it cooked?
yeah.
it tastes as though it is.
see i don't want to get it too wet warm it up in a minute can't we?
mm.
mm!
is that finished?
mm.
them two.
alright, i'll go upstairs then.
have you tidied your room up a bit?
yeah.
sort of.
alright.
oh it's still going.
oh god!
no i'm do , making a right mess here.
yep.
that's good.
i've seen it down over there.
that's, that's alright though.
see i need a new map.
i gotta come out.
the amount of time i've
whoops!
can i ask a selfish question?
yeah.
what's that county down on?
that's just here.
and?
i've got one left.
use that one.
have you got a to go with it?
you want to go er so far there.
i've got a dart, yeah i've got a name.
is it?
to be honest with ya, i haven't got a clue.
i don't know where the is.
stanwell, are they are a part?
stanwell, ask her there?
no, yeah.
that ought to go there.
like that one?
very quiet today.
ooh nice!
manchester, i think.
ye , well it's good.
well i thought manchester is over
no, manchester's over there.
this one is for me.
oh nearly everybody
is it?
likes this one.
cos that's what, it's up the 
i dunno whether 
country int it?
towards there.
i'll tell you where the next one is.
it's probably along there.
part, near to that.
has anybody got any blu-tack?
yeah i got this.
i mean not blu-tack, tippex.
oh nothing.
no.
we never get any.
right.
so that's only 
terry.
yeah?
yeah, here's one i prepared earlier.
it's on a bit.
i'm all finished now, i can't do any more.
what number's that?
erm, as you say 
how we doing folks?
the er it's, you know 
terrible!
it's so .
hopefully on the 
yeah fine.
.
terrible!
one, is the one up, did you say it was wales?
everybody stop when you get to these two.
i think so.
where have i put it all?
i'm using your clip.
aye.
there's no panic on.
no it's not, no.
i'll never get it done quickly.
not through me i'm not.
that's what they said it is.
everyone just says look at he points .
if we were doing that .
yes.
are we ready?
have we tried our best?
i've gotta get something though.
where d'ya put er 
oh i've got one , not put on.
ooh!
why haven't i got 
there's a few i haven't put on.
i don't know.
yeah.
yeah.
go on, i didn't 
stop.
have anything.
stop then.
have you put your label 
at the top of the page?
oh no i didn't.
no.
mm mm.
stop.
too late, done the test.
mm.
oh.
pass your paper one,pu , no, the other way to your right.
pass them to your right 
and then to the left.
again.
oh!
it's there then isn't it?
and then to the left.
okay.
oh.
and i want you to mark your 
colleagues' paper okay?
this is gonna be fun for someone.
you don't even know what you've put or something.
just with a tick and a cross.
can you 
why?
put the corrections in a 
eh?
perhaps a a
bloody hell!
a bracket.
well i ain't telling you.
okay?
i have no problem talking about you.
well
can you see those at the back?
yeah, i think you'll have to go round a bit.
nope.
let me take you through them.
ooh!
aberdeen.
yep.
mhm.
yeah.
i'm going to go clockwise, yes?
mhm.
sterling depot.
number three, clockwise, glasgow.
yeah.
carlisle.
how many have got them all right so far?
that's clockwise.
janey's got all 
of hers right.
no, that's why i said clockwise.
sorry.
andy, will you put your line across there.
what?
what you got on mine?
that's border of scotland andy.
oh right.
i'll just move my border up, don't worry.
durham.
oh i see what you mean, i'm following the names clockwise, not the 
yeah.
dots on there.
sorry, er er durham is next, sorry.
on the right, on that picture is bradford.
mm mm.
you got that er
do you work in ?
you do an extra one.
what, are you ?
no.
durham and bradford.
oh god !
that's alright, i got bradford wrong as well.
the next one is rotherham.
oh thanks.
gonna have more brackets 
yeah you got 
in there .
it's okay, i've got a photocopy of, of that one anyway.
leicester.
that's good.
where's leicester?
did you see your atlas?
you got rotherham and durham on the, all in th the same one.
give him the benefit of the doubt will you?
you crossed rotherham out.
oh yeah.
it's durham there.
well never mind.
durham, right up 
thanks.
by carlisle, near the abbey.
it's mapped out anyway now.
you got molesly twice.
mm.
thetford in the little east anglian part of the country.
yeah.
that's the big fat thing that sticks out at the side down there.
thing, right?
a bit like me.
shaped a bit like me.
right.
next one down in the east midlands is wellingborough.
how many have got them all right so far then?
david.
only david.
i take it you're marking david's?
yeah.
alright then.
well done david.
well you did something right at er school david.
this is true.
luton.
we're having companies on the .
right.
we all got that one?
no.
no.
brentwood.
can you put in correct ple , in brackets, what the depot, the correct depot is at collindale.
oh!
what's that?
i'll give that a strict mark, i think, that one .
hornsea.
it's gotta be totally wrong.
we're going round the m twenty five in 
oh that 
a minute.
that's wrong.
the next one i've put
now, i'm going to go out to the east again with maidstone.
hornsea maidstone.
let's do that down there folks.
yeah, he's got them all right.
mm.
more marks bit tied down to the limit now.
croydon.
okay.
heathrow, right about here.
how are you doing on these, alright?
who?
john?
byfleet.
we're on the, near the m twenty five.
stanwell.
up just , just a little bit towards byfleet.
now i'm going to take you to southampton.
thanks.
yeah, i'll come, across exeter in a minute.
it's where the docks are that 
ah.
i'm trying to follow anyway.
and then exeter over in the west country.
off the coast line to bristol.
and in south wales, llandyssul.
llandyssul.
sorry, llandyssul.
i couldn't see i was so 
llandyssul.
far back.
you get lovely don't you?
sort of, lovely, lovely little place there.
got something called the pakistan, they don't give you a a .
don't they?
they call it , but er 
i got told off for calling it pakistan.
anyway,.
well they better not try telling me that .
milton, is in the
middle.
berkshire area.
north.
show us where birmingham is.
after
do you kathy 
the m four.
we're doing well.
i put, i put nottingham.
what has he got them right?
i think that's right, i got
worcester.
worcester depot.
got that right 
that is sa ,sa south of those three, yeah.
and you go up the m six vi , the m five to birmingham.
oh oh!
david!
what a shame.
london.
ah!
ah ah ah!
i'm disappointed.
sorry.
yo , you mean you lost birmingham somewhere?
no he got cannock and birmingham mixed 
oh!
up.
i tend to 
easy done.
er e easily done.
cannock is north of birmingham.
i had it north first, stirling didn't i?
didn't used to be there though did it?
no, not when i did it.
no.
teesside.
yep.
manchester .
that's a bit, er regionalist 
sorry.
isn't it?
are you gonna do the regional accents all the way round.
well i'll try.
i like this part of the world now, i'm into this bit.
i like watching 
she knows her way around.
i like watching er all quiet on the western front as well cos it all sounds
and coronation street.
yeah.
and coronation street as well.
ramsbottom.
nay worry .
yeah?
and belfast.
i've, i've already covered carlisle have i?
yeah.
terry rightly told me i went down the wrong i was looking for names rather than the dots.
carlisle's on the west.
surprise surprise !
a bit harder than you thought?
yeah.
we got seven there.
i'm still .
how many is there?
i don't know.
twenty nine on there.
right.
still, seven out of twenty nine is
what i'm saying is 
i got .
who got the highest score?
is er 
does anybody wanna 
david.
do a tot up?
i must say i'm ashamed.
what is mine?
oh oh!
what's he doing on
are there four?
david got this.
one.
seven.
well mine's .
oh!
he got
how many's that?
is that, is that eleven?
you could give him a half a mark there.
oh sorry.
write that.
is that alright then?
i know i've put that on.
which one do you want ?
have you got erm jane's
yeah, there you go.
you've got
do i get a bonus point for getting everyone under the south east?
a bit like 
i don't imagine 
cos you're based in london you got all the m twenty five ones .
yeah, i got the lot.
how many 
that's right.
or what was the highest score on the first one?
the highest score?
that's what i said.
david.
twenty 
so?
seven.
twenty seven?
well done 
well done!
david!
jolly good score!
next one down from twenty seven?
anybody got twenty six?
twenty one.
can david know his own roads, i don't know.
shut up !
yeah .
twenty six?
twenty five?
have you counted them up so have you?
yeah?
twenty four?
twenty three?
twenty two?
yes i've got twenty two.
oh oh oh!
oh!
ha ha ha!
twenty one?
yeah.
oh!
three 
yo!
cheats.
yo!
three for twenty one.
i won four games 
twenty?
last night.
as i say
yo!
well done justin.
purposely missing confused of 
the south east.
i got them all wrong on purpose.
arsenal weren't down there were they?
two down the bottom.
all the same 
arsenal was .
all the same side as the watford gap aren't they?
i got holland and brussels right
i mean, holland and brussels
that's alright, i got all of them wrong as .
oh.
what number, that was nineteen?
i don't think that's logical thing.
no.
eighteen?
ooh well done carly.
not too bad for 
mm.
an indoor sales girl there.
cor!
oh that, even thought about that 
i'd rather have .
is fine.
what was that, eighteen?
seventeen?
yeah.
oh.
it's this neck of the woods i don't know.
i think i'll have a .
and london.
it's in these neck of 
of the woods is it?
well my aunt got lost on, round here.
well ca , cannock 
luton, wolverhampton
yeah, that's where i got mixed up.
and maidstone, yeah.
, do you ever go to .
don't you got to , you got wolverhampton one of yours have you?
yeah i'm sure there is.
there's some of the things you know carly put on there.
i had cardiff didn't i?
i went and put cardiff on .
actually manchester 
don't sound so excited carly.
but a wolverhampton's not.
erm, where were we down to?
eighteen was you saying phil?
seventeen.
sixteen?
fifteen?
for a southerner not too bad.
i had something
fourteen?
thirteen?
ooh ooh!
we've got lower than fifty percent now.
yeah , if it makes you feel better now they'd have only, cos janey's was there?
the rest of them still to go.
i know, it's not too bad.
twelve.
ha!
ten.
i had eleven.
just over half .
that's okay.
i'll save you going any further, i got below ten.
i choose not to disclose.
i make no excuses.
my geography's terrible.
i'd
eleven?
ten?
nine?
nope.
eight?
seven?
six?
five?
four?
also i had, put more than that.
i got eight.
eight.
eight.
seven?
yeah, seven.
seven.
mm mm.
yeah, seven.
six?
no.
you need to look 
ah yeah.
you cannot talk about moving parcels around the country if you don't know where the towns are.
you don't have to visit all those you didn't get
oh yeah.
i think, in their own time at their own expense.
that's right.
yeah.
i just get my bunches of three the wrong way round because i know where they are.
i think before we go.
i know the midlands is in the middle and the south is in the south and
not to your customers 
might be some 
it isn't.
not 
well 
your customers 
what's wrong?
well i know the north is in the north and the south is in the south 
i just don't know where the towns are that go with them.
i know the numbers of the depot.
no.
you do need to get 
that's what we need to get 
very, very, you should have a national map in front of you.
and not just you don't want just our depots, you want them in relation 
that's the thing you see the 
to their customers there.
a lot of them places yo , they're not sort of like famous are they?
you know byfleet and hornsea and 
they are to us.
yeah they are to us but 
they're extremely famous to us justin.
manchester 
was a nobody until we put a depot in it.
hornsea is famous justin.
no, i don't mean that, i mean yo , it's not a popular,yo like a
to start looking for cannock 
just because byfleet 
on saturday 
byfleet doesn't have a premiere football team doesn't mean to say 
no.
it's not famous.
no.
aye.
cannock is famous for 
tottenham.
your
can i just say that 
the manchester depot, actually in manchester 
yeah.
hornsea beat tottenham.
it's in stockport.
it's in stockport.
yeah, it's not even in manchester.
i know.
but you're right.
so now the south east most of those depots that you're looking at cannock isn't in cannock.
no.
so, what i'm saying is they're just th , they're, they're, it's just for er
the biggest place near it.
the biggest place near it.
now what 
i'm saying is, is you ought to get very close to that geographical map because it's the logistic logistics er difficulty with getting, and you ought to know where there are mountains and where there are valleys and the fact that that, in south wales they can't just go across country, they have to go back down the valley after the m four and up again.
cos we're driving lorries, we're not driving little, you know trial bikes that go over mountains like the brecons and stuff, you have to 
but we do use the sheep in some ways don't we?
that's right, that's right, we do use the sheep .
but not for 
no.
the sake of the .
no, right.
what 
what i'm saying is, you know, you can't go from stirling to aberdeen in a couple of minutes.
that's big country up there.
and so there's a big mountain range running up the middle of the country, someone thought once was the english channel.
well that's okay cos we've got a tunnel now.
yeah, we got a tunnel now.
yeah.
the english channel, not the pennines.
but they're going where's the pennines?
erm what i'm saying is 
i'd say i don't know where it is at all.
i am saying to you now folks become familiar with the erm depots.
now what about the depot numbers?
no idea.
no.
forty nine.
not at all.
forty six.
forty nine.
i'm gonna call them out.
write them onto your sheets.
aberdeen, thirty nine.
yep.
and you have corrected your sheets haven't you?
you've got all the right ones next to the 
mandy's put them on a nice new sheet ain't ya?
yeah, well done.
aberdeen, thirty nine.
stirling, twenty six.
mm mm.
glasgow
forty five.
yeah, right.
carlisle
oh good,.
forty four.
durham?
forty two.
bradford?
forty six.
forty seven.
rotherham?
thirty
twenty
twenty nine.
leicester.
forty three.
thetford.
forty one.
well done.
wellingborough?
hold on a minute, i'm still writing thetford.
thirty four.
th oh, four 
four , forty one, thetford.
hang on , hang on, you've lost me now.
i'm lost.
wellingborough, twenty four.
newquay?
forty.
brentwood?
twenty eight.
close.
hornsea?
thirty three.
maidstone?
twenty eight.
no.
oh no!
twenty three.
croydon?
thirty seven.
thirty seven.
well done, dave.
byfleet.
eighteen.
stanwell?
eighteen was that?
sixteen.
yeah.
yeah.
eighteen, stanwell, sixteen for stanwell.
sixty?
sixty?
sixty for 
it's byfleet eighteen, stanwell sixteen.
sorry, i'm getting my tongue twisted round those.
exeter.
number, adrian?
thirty one.
thirty one.
southampton?
nil.
twenty five.
i've gone the wrong way round now haven't i?
sorry, but i'm going up it's the er 
southampton's nearly up there.
bristol?
twenty on , twenty two?
well done.?
thirty two.
milton.
twenty one.
cos i'm just 
how come you know them all by number but you don't know where they are?
i've dialled them that's why .
worcester?
twenty three.
what's happened to milton?
i missed that as well?
twenty one.
twenty one.
milton.
you missed that as well ain't you?
twenty one.
did i call it out?
sorry.
yeah.
milton, twenty one.
my fault i think.
don't get, oh mandy's getting her hair off here!
i keep losing numbers.
oh my god!
i've lost it!
i've lost the country now, lost the numbers.
worcester?
twenty four?
se se , twenty seven.
birmingham?
yo!
double o five.
double o five.
cannock?
thirty four.
double o
double o
thirty five.
double o five.
what was birmingham?
double o five.
say that again.
o o five.
why?
why has it funny number?
cos it one of the new places.
cos they're all funny numbers mandy.
cos it's twice as .
ah right!
just don't worry about it.
you couldn't get double o seven.
deeside.
where's cannock?
i missed that as well.
thirty four.
the man in the back says so.
deeside, forty seven.
mm mm!
manchester?
forty nine.
forty nine.
forty nine.
that was the last,, i should have been market trader, been shouting out that voice and
that's, well 
he's like chubby int he?
ramsbottom?
thirty.
belfast?
thirty five.
erm
on belfast i've been told, and and my oversight, beg your pardon, that erm i mentioned the four regional 
the branch that .
managers.
because of the nature of that, that 
being across to water
sorry, phil, are you alright?
it's alright.
don't worry, i did go at a pace.
because
okay.
i talked about four regional managers, they were mainland u k.
er, brian , is also a regional director for belfast and the serving areas of belfast as well, okay?
he has sole responsibility for belfast, but he does have regional directors going to but brian tends to cover a general manager role and with with erm dick ma ,.
no, not dick , who's in er belfast?
tom, tom .
yeah.
and er himself, run the belfast operation across all the regions.
but sometimes, because he doesn't have hundreds of depots i think he's not regional, but that's my own fault.
brian is the northern ireland region.
well done.
do get a, er buy a map, spend some money to get one.
you may have in your depot you may have in your depot a map which have pinpointed the t n t depots.
does any, has anybody seen one yet?
yeah.
the big wa waterproof one which you can draw on?
yes.
yeah.
they're, er, well they're not waterproof
well
but they're coated aren't they?
er, so you can wipe them clean if er, you use a special pen.
but, what i'm saying is, if you, salesmen particularly get one, you'll need one to get round the country your patch, but you need to get familiar with the towns up and down the country for deli , for delivery, cos your customers will talk about the area and you're talking to someone from a transport café, you haven't got a clue where the towns are.
i mean, you know, where's your credibility?
and write down erm it.
i know north of border, nothing happens south of the border and like but, but we do deliver down here so do, do give yourself a little practise of that.
now i'm going to ask you to do another little test for me.
simple questions, ten questions, alright?
do you want ta , tidy up your little bit of paper out the way again?
and there's ten questions about the conditions of carriage.
name on the top of the list.
now how many people have not seen a list of the 
carriage yet?
er erm
nobody.
i think i have not.
you haven't paul?
i don't think so.
it's the of the company and fax it.
i'll look in mine tomorrow.
you think you have?
see 
if i don't know by now 
see how you do.
we won't, it's just 
a very casual sale.
well i'm not.
just think, use your options.
this is so , you know so many days 
yes.
yeah.
just use different options.
alright?
better put your name at the top of the page as well.
we'll go through the answers anyway.
instead of just spouting at me, i'd just like you all to engage brain with .
do you do, i've got one wrong.
alright, just make some notes and stuff that you've got already.
right.
i got lost .
what happens in is you do have the people in that area in the first few weeks .
.
the customer is same there.
the same as in c. 
.
finished?
pass it to your neighbour and once again.
?
well i've read a few of the , it's just a case of remembering the precise details.
cos i, i, know, i know it means roughly in common terms cos, i got a sister to interpret it.
finishing her law degree.
alright.
come round the corner 
and that
no it's not, it's pass, pass your one 
it's just remembering what's actually on the sheet.
and then it's mine one, pass it down to 
is it pass it twice?
yeah, pass it 
round again.
t n t .
oh!
no i'll do like this.
right.
well se , see what you can do just now.
i can't specialize obviously.
but having well a regional, a regional visits every once every how many weeks.
dunno.
just until we come through.
exactly right.
yeah i know.
it's seven thirty.
did you do that?
yeah.
well they, well er, no it's feet u k national 
let me just da dish this out.
and it's
do you want to score that for me?
centimetres for worldwide and euro.
let's score the paper then we'll go through the er 
i'm sorry.
i got number one.
ah?
i sa i said i got number one.
that's what i wrote but i thought, i didn't put that, it didn't exactly right .
but still, if you , but definitely if you feel like that and it goes 
it's the t n t express.
i don't think it was right.
it is!
i could be wrong.
look!
there!
oh.
this is the trouble isn't it?
but some are good, especially .
kathy, is it 
you might be buying more.
have you just got to sort of like the, these open to interpretation, or has it got to be word for word?
well we'll go through it 
giving us the answers now?
because, don't 
yeah.
good one.
do a tick and a cross if you, interpret it, interpret it the way you want to.
if, if you think, hang on 
that doesn't sound right we'll discuss the answer as we go round and we'll have a group
i've got the questions wrong here.
have another go then.
there yours, take those.
what's that?
give me a paper please?
mm.
yeah, that must definitely be right.
it's up there?
yes.
right.
is that
well, it's a .
if you're , i think there's only two wrong here.
just
that's right.
pick what you think is right.
if it sounds right then put it up and we'll discuss anyway.
alright.
ha?
mm mm.
you still add a mark if you put then, would you give us the same mark as before?
oh you've got to have that on as well?
well it's just a legal
i think so
that's a good idea actually phil.
oh i'll tick that right, i don't care.
that's right.
mm.
did you tick that?
mm mm.
mm mm.
i give half for your number four by the way.
i meant a fifteenth of the following 
i'd be, i, i'd be inclined to give a half.
i meant the following month 
a half for one .
but know why i did.
i'm not gonna give him that , i'm gonna give you half.
i'm sorry i can't give you that.
got a half of what .
got to be strict.
it's not very good.
once you done the fifteenth 
, i bought you one.
that's all 
what was this?
going to.
definite.
well you give me one.
yeah you need, you need one.
so would i .
give half for that one.
there are some which is distributed, things distributed by a carrier 
?
say that to me again, phil.
there are some which is to be distributed by a carrier.
i'd say no, so he's right.
definition of a consignment?
yeah.
well 
i will accept that sort of answer.
it is , the, this specific thing about it is from 
yeah.
one place to another thing.
the one time, one load.
classified being a consignment.
from one address to another if is the important thing.
yeah, plus it was 
the important fact was covered in that .
who's got that?
i'll give you that.
oh yeah.
so the , no two labels showing destination 
i could give people the last part , be careful in the second one.
okay let's discuss the, let's discuss the answers 
yeah.
let's discuss the answers.
where's there's any discret 
ooh!
discrepancy, i wish i could take the dog's teeth out 
you should be able to know them all 
and put my own in.
let's see if we can clear up any discrepancy.
what is the legal title of the company?
did anybody get it technically correct?
it isn't just t n t.
john?
u k. 
no.
didn't get the question together.
how many got the first one right?
t n t express u k 
john did.
ltd.
yeah.
wo oh!
no , i put, i put 
yeah, janey did.
carrier.
well what have you got in?
you put the word the carrier?
i just put carrier cos
we , i understand what you're saying because yo , that's what it's used erm 
i'm looking, i'm from sort of like 
in the conditions.
a legal point of view.
yeah.
i understand what you mean.
danny's point is valid there because when you're reading a legal document, t, the t n t express u k will hereafter be known as the carrier 
carrier.
he's put, so we wrote 
so really that's saying the title
yeah, the legal 
actually.
title it does say.
but i was just gonna say, it's understandable
mm.
him thinking in terms and conditions of carriage.
yeah.
yo , you wouldn't have just put the carrier normally would you?
that's what i'm saying, so er, just er interpretation of the question slightly misleading there.
right.
no worries.
what is a definition of a consignment?
now if you get these right, word for word you'll be er, i do conditions of carriage quizzes on selling skills courses and the amount of people that get this right i can count on one hand in the last three years.
who got it right?
david.
word for word?
what was the bit you did?
not word for word, now 
what did he say, please?
he said, one or more items to one address.
no, not comp 
no?
no.
not complete.
what was the completed 
andy 
bit?
so did i phil.
that's not right.
andy's got it right.
oh!
er er, parcels, a number of 
package goods 
parcels packaged then together
that's what it means
and carriage
but it's not the same.
that's not the exact, not it either.
collect the packaged goods to be transferred from 
oh i've got it.
one place to another
oh stop it!
consignment as agreed.
no, that's not enough.
what's mine 
no 
then?
david is the 
no it's 
nearest one.
parc the number of parcels.
that's what i put.
a parcel or goods, goods or a parcel, or a number of parcels from one address to another
at one time.
at one time
in one load.
in one load
in one load.
that's 
aha!
i , those, those points are all valid.
if there's
i missed that.
a group of parcels going in two loads it's two 
i put and i crossed it outside.
two loads.
consignments.
consignments.
if it's going erm
to different .
to two different 
i got that one.
addresses it's two consignments.
that's what i meant.
if it goes at different times, it's a different consignment.
so in, parcel or parcels, going from one address to another at one time in one load that is a consignment.
if you just say erm a group of parcels er er, in one load that's not enough cos it can be 
yeah i know.
part of a load.
i missed out the from address to address.
one address to one address.
it's 
yeah.
quite er distinct what i di ,a what you'll be determined as.
cos some people er er may think, you know, the agreement because i have split the load you can still charge me the same price and it may not be the case.
right.
next one.
what's the question ja andy?
what is the cus , sorry, what should 
what should 
the customer provide prior to the collection of a consignment?
what was some of the answers there?
janey's put, name, address, from another consignment note filled out and service requirement 
and weight of the consignment.
yeah.
so what we were looking for was something more er erm 
did i answer that one?
no.
i didn't get round to it.
anybody get what we were looking for in the, yes you should?
what should the customer provide prior to the collection of a consignment?
well obviously the delivery name and address is important and the consignments, so you didn't get that wrong but there was, what we were looking for as well a full written declaration of the nature of contents of any consignment containing dangerous infested, contaminated 
aha.
or fragile goods.
in other words, is there anything, did anybody pick up
you got that.
yeah,
unusual 
i did.
i might have given you one there, that looks good enough.
oh.
did you get that there?
i did a part of it.
oh 
i reckon justin's got enough cos 
what 
he's got times 
time 
when ready, weight, number of packages, destination, and then haz 
well done.
haz will do nicely for me.
that's what we're really looking for, hazardous 
yeah.
goods.
well done.
because, how can i say 
even, even i take 
we've, you'll see, i mean there's a, not a very good illustration of a, the hub with the yellow walls of the, the conveyer belt behind you, but you can see the fairly plain packaging that parcels come in.
the more, er er sophisticated erm wholesale er distributors now know that people just pick up from stock a box don't they?
and, they may have one display displayed, but if you go to somewhere like a warehouse or distribution where you go round and pick up your you can go to a garden you'll pick up a box that's illustrating a flymo lawn mower or something and, and it'll, er they spend a lot of time and money on the packaging, but, a lot of people for pilferage reasons don't illustrate and that's good practise not to illustrate, from our point of view, what's on the package.
but you must know what's in it.
just knowing the size and the weight isn't, you might, that's alright, that's only for the price what's in it is vital because if i asked the sales people from their top ten major customers what do you carry for them?
do reme , can yo , can i, can you guess at how many would say i don't know?
major customers.
half a dozen.
it's a lo , i, i'd sa , they wouldn't admit it bill, they might say something like erm oh it's electronics, but they wouldn't know specifically what electronic.
would that not cause er security problems if you put exactly what was on the box.
you don't put , you shouldn't, but you should know.
you should declare it.
they should declare if it's hazardous, infectious, infested,i it will, what's word you used?
incestuous weren't it?
incestuous?
was that a word.
infested.
infested, contaminated 
yes it is.
or fragile goods.
dangerous,haz really, he should declare it, and people don't you know, unless you ask.
right.
right.
next one.
what is the customer obliged to provide da to load and unload a consignment?
who di , who got the answer?
not exact.
i, er i said suitable lifting or moving equipment.
i'd accept that.
plant, power or labour.
moving equipment then.
yeah 
that's 
i got that one.
what i said to you.
ah!
i got that.
did you accept it paul?
it got one.
yeah.
yeah, you did?
yeah about lifting equipment?
about power lifting equipment.
yeah i'd accept that.
cup of tea for the driver.
what we actually put
cup of tea, sustenance , yeah.
what we actually put is, er, it is the responsibility in the conditions of carriage.
it is a responsibility.
where would you find the conditions of carriage.
on the back of every erm contract out there.
on the back of every contract.
because it is subject to the conditions of carriage that we accept their business and therefore we have to provide them with written information.
now, it is down to interpretation i er er and, it, on your next courses you may do a more in-depth conditions of carriage quiz which will ask you to study the conditions of carriage at night and produce a bit more detailed answer in the morning, but we're not gonna expect you to do that on this course.
erm, number five erm can you read that out for me mandy?
what, sorry, go on.
go on.
when would you cube a consignment?
what did you put bill?
what did bill put?
that's a very good answer then.
it's one i could think of.
gets me out of trouble that one.
i got one.
did anybody get that one right?
no well i, i 
i thought when the mass 
i sa er 
is greater than the weight.
you know 
yes.
that's right.
cos i put like 
i put
if you're taking six foot of film it won't weigh much but it'll take a lot of room up.
that's fairly accurate that.
i just put if you've got 
oh you're having that one are you?
if you've got a load , if you 
it's a good point.
if you've got a er
more consignments on it.
dead we or gross weight
yes.
well 
and the big package
that would have meant 
then it go in , in a large
that's correct.
dimensions then you cube it.
we're gonna do cubing in a minute, do a few exercises on cubing.
yes, i mean,je mandy said er, if we've got any consignment which exceeds one point five cubic feet per ten kilos.
but you usually know don't you if 
it's lower than that actually but er sorry 
mm mm.
it isn't.
i, i said, yeah a cubic foot, is se , six point six then.
that's probably right, yeah.
one point five per ten kilos.
you can usually tell when you get used to it and we're gonna talk about visual identity in a minute, but when the mass seems greater overly large to the weight is what er jen , sorry mandy said, and i think that's a good er er a good er analogy there.
i got if erm, if the size is greater than the weight actually.
yes.
i got that.
i'll accept that at this stage alright?
next question is, what's number six?
who can read it out?
er six .
can't read that word.
notional.
oh!
ha.
what notional weight is used for cubing?
six point six per cubic foot.
did you get that right?
i did, yes.
mm mm.
yes.
what notional weight?
did anybody get that right other than, dan?
mm.
the man.
i, i put one, one 
janey got it right.
ton per cu , well it's per cubic metre 
i know.
yes.
because in my last job that's 
three feet.
how you worked it out, we didn't work with feet.
we worked in metres.
getting you excited now bill.
yeah, well he does it all the time.
it's only twen , it's only twenty six point six two.
is it?
yes.
i dunno, i mean, i got 
a metre, no , it's not a ton.
and if you do a cubic metre, in my old 
yeah but yo 
it was one, it was like one one ton per cubic metre.
that's when you used to work in weight and measure though isn't it?
yeah.
we do , plus a thousand 
they did 
kilos per metre squared?
yeah, if you work on , is it, is it always on cubic feet or do you actually do it on metres?
well
we always wo 
we tend to go back to feet i must say.
yeah.
but i don't know why?
unless it's euro or international and then it's in metres.
what are you refer , what are you referring to that one, that, what does that
that's for loading containers?
that's what you ship in .
yeah that's for international you see.
oh right.
it's a different one.
i didn't realize i was 
no.
international.
no.
it's not the same.
that's what containers do don't they?
they seal containers and export it to different er ratio.
but the cubic idea is the same, but it's six point six cu , kilos per cubic foot.
so a metre would be about three it's a cubic metre.
we'll work on that one.
gotta be nine ,
nine.
nine
nine.
cubic metres in a 
metres 
yard.
about the same sa , in ten.
mm.
it's about the same.
what i can't understand is 
not a ton.
is why we mix, why we mix the measures.
neither can i.
we've got kilos for the weight, and we've got cubic feet.
mm.
mm.
mm.
mm.
terry do you wanna re-write the cu , the cubing manual?
please.
make it simpler.
maybe then i'll get it right.
make it simpler for the new babies coming in.
no you didn't, you got it wrong.
oh right.
er, seven.
to what extent is t n t liable for indirect or consequential loss?
i'd say we were 
answer?
.
no.
anybody get 
it's not.
it right?
yes.
yeah.
i got one of them.
and a show of hands.
does everybody understand 
a lot of people.
what consequential loss is or indirect loss?
you lose the parcel but it's end up for example in the, they used a contractor at the other end because we lost the parcel but they're not responsible for that.
we'll just take the blame for it.
if, yeah, we don't 
and erm 
insure documents anyway.
we don't er offer transit liability on documents because we only that is a flat piece of paper to us, it isn't a valuable item.
we don't con , the, you know, what the arrangement is.
mm.
if it's your marriage contract and you don't get married because you don't got, that's not our fault.
we just cos we don't ins , it's only a piece of paper to us, you see.
so documents do not get transit liability on them at all.
and tenders and deadlines can be particularly sensitive to that, but you cannot offer transit liability.
but even if this tape is going to record the last speech of somebody famous and it didn't get and therefore they couldn't record it, that is co , the consequence of a delay, you know, a fall of snow or our vehicle breaking down or something not being done, or missed some in human, some human error, it's not our, we don't lay, we'll give, we'll insure or offer transit liability on the value of the goods providing you've got additional full transit liability with us, but we won't for the loss of business because you didn't get it.
is that, can anybody think of a, a courier of documents, it's still the same.
i think that's why super mail offers on large goods.
mm.
it's better than one.
mm.
mhm.
yes.
no we don't do ta , erm the conditions of ca , there's, there's a slight sort of 
on conditions of carriage for the same day operation but, not in that league at all.
on super mail, if that item doesn't arrive in a set time
mm mm.
what do you make up for, just their postage?
it might be more mightn't it?
the consignment or 
yeah.
the nearest nearest service value.
if they send out a document that weighs a kilo for tapes and they sent that one, they're losing twenty 
it'll lose it's value 
rather than say if it doesn't arrive at a set time
that wouldn't make any difference.
then it's covered for them.
it's e
just the consignments.
class e. 
with post, yeah.
i'm talking about 
yeah sorry 
if it, if it was like you 
say
yeah.
if they us , if they use a contractor 
that's what they're, what we're saying.
you might, you might get 
and that sort of from the policy.
you might get it 
no.
for nothing.
well er
cos but erm 
but they still go there now.
yeah i know, but our sort of van 
what would it cost?
or
like 
carrier like the local land owner at the house of lords can do that.
i'll buy you a .
yeah but, she didn't say these are all wrong once i look at 
yeah.
the board.
paper.
most of them would cos they are going like far 
and everyone's .
you've seen people see 
we only, we only insure 
i didn't say what the license is.
we only insure for the intrinsic value of 
and is there any situation 
the item.
that's all.
right.
but you guarantee them delivery.
yep.
on the piece of paper.
i know but you've lost the .
we give them their money back.
i mean, well it'll probably arrive, it'll turn up somewhere won't it really?
but se 
could do.
i mean send another one is what we're saying, have your money back.
if you haven't got the you should be okay.
or
if it arrived, if you paid for a before 
one customer should expect it to arrive then 
noon and it er 
i mean, same ta super mail, we wouldn't give them their money back.
i think that's a bit more than that now.
but if you ordered a ten thirty delivery and it arrived before noon, we would just give you the money difference the before twe , ten thirty and the before noon price, not the complete price.
unless you wanted to argue about it.
but we feel that, okay, you know, it may have been a half an hour late but you got there.
and therefore, we have incurred cost and therefore, but okay, it wasn't the guaranteed service.
but you could argue with us, you know.
and again, a commercial decision is made locally based on the strength of the account.
but we don't, you've gotta be careful as you probably know phil, the abuse can of the ca , you know, carrier, you know, can be a nice little earner if you're not careful.
and, you know, erm people can intend to fail in order to claim money, revenue back, and so on.
d'ya know
or damaged goods can, you know, put the foot through it to get the insurance cover on what we pay and we're liable.
so you've got to be very, very, very careful.
having said that if you, there's been a court of law we'd prob , if, they'd probably erm
sustainability, viability, as in a conceptual sense, and i would also like to suggest that in pushing this discussion forward we ought to bear in mind the, how shall i say it, the principles as espoused by the department of the environment in their planning policy guidance note three, er and in particular those spelt out in paragraph thirty three.
and those if you would, for those who have not got them available, erm, we can have them copied and obtain them for you, but i suspect all of all of you sitting round the table will have p p g with you.
.
anyone short of a copy of p p g three, paragraph thirty three particularly?
it's the one prepared for the submission .
for those tha who are not to familiar with, the initials p p g, it stands for planning policy guidance, and there are a whole series of these guidance notes produced by the department of the environment for the er advice guidance of, well not only the local planning authorities but anyone else who is interested in the development business, and they are expressions of, i suppose government policy, er and their attitudes towards various aspects, whether it's countryside, housing,trans or transport, and they do pro provide a useful backcloth, in fact an extremely valuable backcloth to the way in which er this matter should be considered, erm i know from the submission which north yorkshire county council have used they would say that the fact they haven't had regard to all this er, but i would like to carry on the discussion against that background, and could you direct your thinking at this stage about the need for a new settlement in the light of the principles spelt out in p p g three and particularly paragraph thirty three.
now then, can we proceed to mr brighton.
sorry, mr donson first?
yes, thank you.
roy donson, house builders' federation.
i think i'd like to start by making a few general points, er and then er it will be a matter for for others to to be somewhat more specific, i i i think i can say that the issue of a new settlement of a new settlement in greater york is is a fairly unique situation, because we have agreement between the development industry and the county council, and that's something of a rarity, but also we have mild support from the department of the environment, and as mr davis has already said, that is backed by public support.
i think it should be remembered that that public support actually was against a requirement of one thousand nine hundred dwellings, which is not quite the proposal being put forward by the county at the moment, but it is clear that there seems to me n not to be any public or great strength of public objection to the sort of proposals that are now before you in this enquiry, and it also seems to me that the reasons behind erm that that public support are essentially because it meets the first requirement of paragraph p p g thirty three, that the alternative expansion of existing towns or villages will represent a less satisfactory method of providing land for new housing that is needed, i think that is the essence of the public support, and so first of i think you can say that that's that means that first criteria, and certainly it seems to meet the second automatically because it an expression of public preference.
from the federation's point of view, er i have substantially difficult, a difficulty, in guiding you as to where the new settlement ought to be, because in effect i would be choosing between members, and that is a certain route to my unemployment, if i were to do that, and i don't wish to be unemployed.
therefore i am not able to suggest to you, and haven't been able to in my evidence which district even a new settlement er ought to go in, but i have to say that if it were part of your deliberations that you should choose a particular district, er then it is not part of my submission that you should not choose a particular district, but my bottom line is that the policy wording should at least ensure that there is commitment to a new settlement and it is inescapable on behalf of the district planning authorities, the last thing that we would want is the possibility of going round the districts, and the last one to produce a district wide plan is the one that has to get the new settlement, that seems to be a gen , fairly unsatisfactory way of proceeding, and each one should have to consider that as part of their certification process.
if i can then turn to er some of the issues that were w w w were were raised this morning, york and others, and other other others in their submission laid great store on p p g thirteen.
can i remind you that it is a draft, and it is a consultation draft, it is not government policy.
and ministerial statements have actually indicated that it's not likely to appear, as a final version, until next year at the earliest, and so it would seem to me that there's a great deal of thought to be gone into the precise wording of that p p g yet, and to rely on quotes from it wou is, is, is at best er, misleading, and i think we ought to bear in mind something that mr curtis mentioned this morning, that in fact the change that happened between draft p p g three and the final version, it is quite possible that the final version of p p g thirteen could be substantially different from the 
can i, can i interrupt at that stage 
.
and say, do you find nothing of p p g draft revision in p p g twelve?
yes i do find that there's a general thread,an an an and and one would expect that, what i'm what i'm guarding against is taking too much notice of precise quotes from from from p p g thirteen.
i think also we ought to be guarded about too much detailed discussion of travel distances, we are talking here at most of travel distances of between six and ten miles, in keeping with the policy, erm it seems to me that erm if we we spend too much time on trying to determine whether six or ten miles distant, is is there any great significance in terms of the global environment it would be at least an unproved case, one way or the other, but also there seems to me to be a clear conflict in those who are trying to say that the new settlement proposal falls because not large enough of a site is being proposed, one way and another.
it would seem to me that if you've got to prove a case that there that it is the place of last resort, and that place of last resort has got to be at least five thousand dwellings, you are in a place where there is absolute massive growth of demand, and improbably no one has been able to meet a five year supply of housing land, if you are to meet it in the term, if y if those are the criteria to meeting the terms of th of this sort of plan, and in fact what i would submit is that a new settlement solution is very much a part and parcel of a long term solution, and that's where essentially the county strategy is quite right in proposing a new settlement in the context of the greenbelt, because also greenbelt is a long term solution.
we've got to look at it in those terms, and so it is not necessary in my submission for anyone to prove at the moment there is at least five thousand dwellings short, erm that that is something which ought to be considered over a much longer time period.
i think that what we have to decide today, or one of the things that needs to be decided is, is the new settlement in the longer term a sensible answer given that all the all the various considerations, and that erm arguing about residual numbers, here or there has to be taken in the much longer context, i think that's what all i would like the to say at the moment on on new settlement erm because of the situation i am in of not being able to er say too much in detail about it, i shan't be making very many contributions to to this particular debate.
can i come back mr donson, or will that, and i take it, alright, i understand the point you are making about the long term solution and size, but if the panel were to be persuaded that to be a viable solution the settlement had, in the end, and i'm not going to define where the end is, almost certainly beyond two thousand and six, that the settlement would need to be of the order of five thousand dwellings.
do you consider it important that we take that into account now, not least because of the, although it's well beyond the plan in its entirety, where the new settlement might go, and its its acceptability in environmental terms, depends in part on how big it is, there may be some places which could easily take fifteen hundred dwellings, but could not take five thousand?
that seems to me to be a consideration which may be able to address in general terms by yourselves, but depends very much on the individual proposals, and and erm is is a matter of detail of the individual proposals, i'm sure that you don't want presented here the the fine detail of of individual proposals
indeed not.
but it, but it maybe, it it would seem to me if that is a consideration of yours, that might be something that you reflect upon in y in your report, but it is it is not a necessary er requirement that, er that be part and parcel of this particular e i p.
thank you.
mr brighton.
paul brighton, barton willmore planning partnership.
can i say first of all that er i support the general approach which has been adopted by yorkshire county council and the the other local authorities in the greater york area, on the way in which they've formulated their proposals for the york greenbelt after a fairly long erm and exhausting process, the question to which i want to address my comments first of all is whether the new settlement is an appropriate and justified planning response, and what i would like to do if i may is look at some of the reasons that have been raised erm in objection to the new settlement as a strategy, erm these issues have been raised by hambledon district, york city council, the c p r e, montague evans, in their written submissions to the examination of the .
first of all, erm, if we c could, erm, the question of need.
the first element of need is erm the various estimates of commitments of potential land, erm and the argument is, erm, that the additional requirement can actually be met within the inner area, now we covered that at some length this morning, and refer to what we've had said on that in a bit, i don't propose to repeat it.
likewise, part of the argument also revolves around possibility that in additional land within the inner greenbelt boundary, and again you've heard our argument on that this morning, and i don't propose to to repeat that.
a new point that i would make, however, in many of those arguments which relate to the impossible, or alleged availability of additional windfall sites, and land on the inner greenbelt boundary, but i think the analysis which is er carried out is a simplistic one, because it solely relates to residential land requirements, there is no erm attempt to erm bring into the equation whether there is land available for the related employment necessary for that additional residential development, whether there is land available for schools, shops, and mr davis's recreation uses, and so on, and all those will very considerably increase the amount of land required to be released to support residential development, wherever it is located, and that is something which i believe has not been properly taken into account.
the second major issue which i believe had been used against the new settlement as a an appropriate greater york area, is that it's inconsistent with erm current recent central government planning advice, and basically the argument is that the proposals for the new settlement are contrary to er planning policy guidance notes three and twelve, and draft er p p g thirteen, if i can deal with p p g thirteen first of all, and the observation of mr curtis that the new settlement is a last resort, erm now i could find no reference to that at all erm in p p g three, or even a sentiment that at planning policy er that a new settlement should be regarded erm as a policy of last resort.
my believe is what p p g is inviting local authorities to do is be cautious in proposing them, they should not be regarded as a first option, or an easy option, they should be cautious in proposing them.
special circumstances are required to justify the er proposing the new settlement through the local plan structure planning process, and i believe that is exactly what has occurred over the last five years, and if i could just quickly run through paragraph thirty three of p p g three, and the your invitation for us to comment on the criteria set out there, first of all the first element, the ex the alternative must be erm seen to be a less satisfactory method of providing land for the new housing that is needed, that is the essence of what has occurred in the process which the county council has undertaken over the last couple of years, all of the policy options available have been examined in great detail, have been subject to public consultation, public participation,d i believe clear view was that there were erm constraints operating on york which meant that not all of that additional development accommodated in the adjacent to the existing er york city villages surrounding york.
the second requirement is that it should be a clear expression of local preference afforded by the local planning authorities, my i think the fact that it has been promoted by the greater york authorities, albeit some of them have erm taken a slightly different view of late, i think that is clear expression that the local, that the new settlement proposal does have a substantial local support.
the third element and the fourth element erm i i think relate more to location questions to do with the new settlement, and i propose to deal with those under the legal heading of two c, the next item is that the proposal can be considered alongside policies of restraint, and that is exactly how the proposal for the new settlement has emerged, it is a response to the er proposed greenbelt around york city, and obviously we can put in the greenbelt that there is severe erm policies of restraint operating at er on on the terms of new development.
finally, the last consideration, again i believe that to be a location question which i propose to deal with under the heading two c.
so the new settlement is one element of a comprehensive approach to development employments in greater york.
i would make the point that it has taken thirty five years for us to reach this point where we have comprehensive strategy for york, we have battled with er various greenbelt boundaries in the past, i think there has never been erm a total review development plan requirements for the greater york area, no more of its implications on possible greenbelt boundaries, we now have that and the greenbelt local plan, southern ryedale local plans are being progressed on the basis of that strategy, and there are other plans in the pipeline.
and i think the special character and position of the york as one of this country's most important historic, historic towns fully justifies the exceptional step of new settlement.
the second planning policy guidance note which erm the new settlement tracked as was the policy guidance note number twelve, and i wonder if i can grapple for a moment with the s word, sustainable.
it's a word which everyone is using and it's almost like confetti.
i i'm not sure that we've had a very helpful description of what sustainable means, erm i suspect people use it in different ways and ther there is no er er common usage established of what it means here, there is no dictionary definition.
i've scoured the the technical professional press to find out if there is some general statement which sums up what sustainability means, and the one which i've seen most commonly referred to, i think, and the government has used it in this way, is a requirement to ensure the needs of the present generation are met in a way which does not prejudice future generations, now i do not believe that a properly conceived and located new settlement is any less sustainable in the long term that other forms of urban growth, and by properly conceived i've got to say i believe that to mean properly balanced er form of development for the new settlement, and i think i would say that new settlements have usually been proposed because continued infilling, like the the normal forms of accommodating further development requirements, infill, and peripheral development, have been determined in york context not to be sustainable, the sorts of issues which arise as a result erm of additional development in or on the edge of york and the surrounding villages, problems of additional congestion, loss of green space in towns, loss of employment opportunities and so on.
and finally i can just look at erm draft planning policy guidance thirteen, it is very easy to lift one or two sentences out of either the draft planning policy note, or indeed the ecotech report which underpins it, erm, i think if a full reading is made of that, what comes across strongly in the research is that there is a very complex relationship between urban forms and transport patterns, and indeed erm i think the advice in p p g, er draft p p g thirteen is prefaced with a note that erm, transport issues are, will be erm, there are very few general principles, if any, and local er considerations will influence the er the importance of this iss issue very considerably, what i think draft p p g thirteen does invite us to do is to more overtly look the transportation implications of alternative settlement patterns, and that's all.
and at the end of the day transport matters are only one consideration which need to be taken into account in considering alternative er locations, and it may not be the most important.
and finally, if we can look at erm, i think the c p r e have raised this, that erm the new settlement i er would would be inconsistent with erm regional sub-regional planning strategy.
first of all if one looks at the draft advice on the erm regional plan guidance prepared by the yorkshire and humberside local planning authorities, they in fact advocate new settlement as an appropriate circumstances, there is not a policy which says that they are not appropriate or are inconsistent with other policy objectives, and i note in that respect that the d o e as mr donson said, are mildly supportive of the new settlement in the greater york area.
there is some comment has been made that a new settlement to the south or the south west of york would in some way undermine the urban regeneration erm of leeds city council, now i find this a surprising comment given that though people who are making that comment are also at the same time advocating much increased development allocations to, for example, harrogate district, the main centre for which is erm, nearer than most conceivable new settlement locations to the south and south west of york.
in addition i think there's some inconsistency, because within selby district, for example, a lot of development which has been advocated in the past and is likely to be allocated in the future is in places like selby or sherburn in elmet, which again are much nearer to leeds erm than potential new settlement sites to the south and south, south west of york, and yet objection has been raised to er that particular erm element in the planning strategy for selby, and i i can't see the reason why a new settlement should be treated in any different way to any other form of development in that sense.
now you've also invited comments on er the question of whether one settlement is appropriate, and the size of the settlement do you want, would you like to take my comment 
well i was trying to stick with the size as an expression of whether the concept is one that should be pursued, and whether that influences the pursuing of the concept, can we can we leave the, the number of settlements till, till later on?
right.
i think erm there is some dispute as to erm what size the new settlement must be to become what's termed an integrated and balanced community, and given the importance of this issue, and it has been with us for the last three years, ever since the new settlement was first proposed, erm i find it very surprising that north yorkshire county council have not undertaken any work of their own on this subject area, and have relied instead on a a residual approach to to find the new settlement size, and i must say i find that very unsatisfactory, what north yorkshire county council are inviting you, erm, to accept is whatever size the residual for greater york is, you know, has been in the past i should say, proposals from the public, from the private sector have come forward,an and the county council have used those proposals as confirmation that the new settlement of that particular size was viable, it's a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, now i think that's unacceptable, what they haven't done is the second part of the technical exercise, which is to to look at the thresholds of the various services and facilities required in the new settlement.
now i am able to say that barton willmore has done this work, and it has submitted as part of our submission to the e i p, and in summary what i would say is that i believe that that work demonstrates that the new settlement has to be in the order of two thousand to two thousand five hundred dwellings, to begin to achieve the environmental objectives set for the new settlement, and also social objectives which would also be important to the residents of that new settlement.
now north yorkshire county council er i think in their statement look to erm to existing market towns to provide what little evidence they can up to justify fourteen hundred dwellings, er i think that's again a simplistic approach because by definition the market now can seal them up wider catchment area, many of them are some distance from york, and the settlements concerned provide a service base for a number of surrounding villages, and therefore the actual specialities and services found within that particular settlement are greater than one would achieve if it did not have a large catchment area.
but finally, i would like to make one comment about the er the residual approach used to define the new settlement size.
i think there is a tendency erm for local authority planners to to have horizons set by the end date of the current plan period, and work, try and work in that, sort of around the real world i think, where nothing happens, or nothing is conceivable, beyond that time period, erm, this particular approach, er does not work in the case of new settlements, there is no need when having established your design size for a new settlement that it necessarily all has to be built within current plan period, and i think this sort of approach is recognized in cambridgeshire where, in case of the a forty five new settlement, a view was taken at an early stage that a new settlement of three thousand dwellings was needed to meet long term development needs in cambridgeshire, an area where the planning issues and problems where very similar to those of york, and the approved structure plan in policy proposed that new settlement to be designated as three thousand, of which two thousand portion would be built within the current plan period, so it seems to me that the the question of size need not be an impediment to erm designation of a new settlement if the existing requirement and need are adjudged not to require the sort of new settlement size that we are creating.
thank you.
thank you very much.
mr brighton, erm before i turn to another speaker, your comment about the location of a new settlement, and the likely effect it would have on the west yorkshire conurbation, er i presume from what you've said is that effectively the new settlement, if you have one, its location should be such as to serve the needs of york and greater york, and therefore the further it is away from the west yorkshire conurbation, or the west side of north yorkshire, the more likely it is to fulfil that function.
i think that the new settlement erm should be as close to york erm city as can be achieved, the erm question of the detailed location er i think is a matter for erm discussion on the basis of the other planning policy guidance erm criteria which i haven't explored terms of the locational criteria, what i was seeking to do in my comments was erm to counter a point which has been made er by the c p r e which refers to new settlements as an engine of growth, now that's not the purpose of this new settlement, it is a response to the needs of meeting greater york, and i don't see any reason why that's less likely to be achieved if it's south south west of york, than anywhere else around the circumference of york.
given that planning cannot dictate that people live near to where they work, i'm not sure i've yet grasped why it is that the need to greater york need to be met near to york,the these needs to rise from a complex pattern of people moving in and people moving out, individual decisions as to where people live in relation to where they work, what's the magic of having the new settlement near to york?
and perhaps this is this goes to a wider point of what's the magic of the definition of greater york area?
that not just a question to yourself mr brighton, others may wish to comment later.
may i answer first?
paul paul brighton, barton willmore.
i think it is erm greater york that has been seen as an area with special problems because of its er historic character, erm which we spent many hours debating at the york greenbelt local plan inquiry, and i think most participants there accepted that the er what was being protected was not just the historic core, but also the setting of york and its surrounding ring of villages, and the way which it is proposed to protect that setting and character is by a greenbelt, now it follows that if you are imposing extremely severe restrictions on new development in an area around a settlement, then you have to meet the legitimate development needs for that settlement in another location, the further away that new settlement or other policy response is located it seems to me the less likely it is to meet the er needs of that settlement, and that will give rise to erm, you know, additional pressures on the settlement you are proposing to protect and maybe those pressures could not be resisted, and i think that's why there is this requirement that erm the development which might otherwise be built on the edge of york, but which is not proposed to be so built because of the greenbelt needs to be located close, as close to york as is consistent with the original environmental objectives greenbelt objectives for the greenbelt.
can i carry on throwing pebbles into the pool?
thank you.
planning theory about the right size for towns is not good.
isn't there an argument which says if you're trying to protect york and its setting that the further you actually move the development away from it the greater the protection you afford it?
i think erm there is a erm a size issue that enters into that particular consideration, erm clearly erm if you build a small new settlement very close to an existing large settlement, then the prospects for that being reasonably self contained are much reduced to that of a larger new settlement in the same location, and i would agree that the further in in general the further you move away from an existing centre then the likelihood is that that settlement will become more self contained.
can we,ca 
but, sorry.
go on.
there is an additional aspect that erm we we must look also, i think, at the viability of the services and facilities, er, within the new settlement, if the new settlement is, for the sake of argument five hundred houses then my submission is that that really offers no long term viability for any facility or service, erm, clearly you might get a primary school if the new settlement size was of the order of eight hundred to a thousand dwellings, but you would not get any sizable retail element, and so however far that settlement was located from the main centre they would still become dependant on that centre, and that's why i think it's important to recognize that if you are to achieve the erm if you like the balance of requirements, of achieving erm a reasonable degree of self containment within the new settlement, but also meet the needs of york, it has to be a reasonable size, but located as close to york as possible 
thank you mr brighton, i'll leave my point until later.
mr timothy, and then mr brook.
paragraph thirty three 
can you introduce yourself mr timothy, please ?
yes.
this is for the sake of record, the record.
right, this is chr , christopher timothy from wood frampton.
starting off with paragraph thirty three of p p g three,, erm you'll see in my statement that i've actually in seeking to address point a dealt with each of the conditions that p p g three er refers to, for which a new settlement should be contemplated, and you will see that i've reached a conclusion that having regarded the unique circumstances of york, the greater york new settlement does represent an appropriate and justified policy response, you'll se also see my statement, i've taken some comfort from the fact that the good practice guide that has been published by the department of the environment, has endorsed the approach that north yorkshire county council has taken towards the special circumstances of the greater york area.
i don't know if this means that the north yorkshire structure plan now has the equivalent of an egon ronay recommendation.
the the particular point that that i wish to pick up on though was from m mr curtis and his reference to erm the draft p p g thirteen, and whilst i'd say that the point of the h b f that it's only a draft publication at this stage, there's in my view been too mu much over reliance on the reference in there to self containment, you see if we look at that particular paragraph, two point one two, it actually says avoid the development of small new settlements which are not to, sorry, i'll start that again, avoid the development of small new settlements which are not be likely to be well served by public transport, or which will not be largely self contained.
it's not an and situation, it's an ei it's an either or situation.
so by implication if you c if the new settlement is capable of being well served by public transports, then that is se a a satisfactory situation.
i take in my opinion the size, scale of settlement that is being pursued by erm north yorkshire is of sufficient size, erm my experience erm are twelve fifty to fifteen hundred new settlement is sort of of a size that can sustain a reasonable balance of community facilities, i think in looking at the new village and in the context of p p g thirteen its highway implications, we see from table one of er mr curtis's supplementary statement that public transport, i e bus and train, in terms of journeys to work to the greater york area amounts to about eight percent of all journeys made, now i think if we were to follow mr curtis's view through and put all development on the periphery of york, if we put two hundred to the north, two hundred to the east, two hundred to the south and so on and so forth, the contribution that those, that new housing can make to improving the public transport system, will be very small, if you concentrate your developments in a new settlement, or or maybe two new settlements which is another point, erm you have a better opportunity to provide a public transport system which would not only serve that new village, but also settlements in the surroundings, and i think you will find that the percentage of people in the new village who are reliant on public transport as a means of getting to work is greater that what you find in the greater york area at the present time.
aha.
any other comment?
the only other comment i had in terms of the scale of settlement, which i think is just touching upon the next point, is that, i mean depending on the conclusions you reach as to the the amount of housing to be provided for in a new settlement, i take the point that mr brighton made that you've got to have a longer term perspective i think that he f that in the ten year period ninety six to two thousand and six that the new settlements to be brought forward during, erm i think it's really unrealistic to achieve more than twelve fifty, fourteen hundred houses in that period, if you say reach a conclusion there should be two thousand houses in that period in a new settlement, there might be some benefit in having two settlements, each of a capacity of say twelve fifty,f for erm twelve fifty to fifteen hundred that can have capacity for the next plan period, and in other words to assist in meeting the constraints that exist on york that are likely to exist into the future.
mhm.
thank you.
mr brook, and then mr sexton.
thank you sir.
clive brook, clive brook associates.
i think it would be appropriate to very briefly sir preface erm not by name obviously, who i represent, the interests i represent, because otherwise my comments may be misconstrued erm by certain parties who know me well, i represent certain peripheral land owner and developer interests around york, i also represent a developer who is proposing a n new village circa fifteen hundred dwellings in the leeds metropolitan district er to the east of wetherby, that is relevant when i come to the location and a migration aspects, er i would preface the rest of my comments by saying i consider it is vitally important, sir, that this enquiry takes a sub-regional view, this is why my colleague from leeds city council i'm sure's been invited, it's why the department of the environment regional office are here, very important indeed.
in terms of greater york and its th the york greenbelt i think it's true to say that er some time ago when david kaiserman of manchester did research on greenbelts he came to the view, or he came up with the conclusions from his questionnaires that he sent round, and that study was done, must be ten, fifteen years ago or more, that greenbelts should endure unchanged for at least twenty years, and probably in excess of thirty, and those were the responses of county planning and other major planning authorities at that time, that view if anything has hardened, the public view would be way beyond thirty years.
for a city the nature of york it is vital, in my view, that public confidence in the greenbelt it's got to endure for beyond thirty years, that is the case i would share the views to some extent of the york city in that, and which i i certainly read into ma'am, your, two of your questions, what happens beyond two thousand and six?
the responses i heard to that question were most unsatisfactory, the county council's response was, ah, well we'll have to get together again with the group of authorities, now if you look back over how long it has taken to produce this particular strategy that's exceedingly worrying, that means they'll have to get together again, even if it takes half the time or a third of the time, they'll have to get together again towards nineteen ninety seven ninety eight to be considering the strategy post two thousand and six.
i put it to you that this proposal has to be considered, any new settlement proposal has to be considered within the light of a post two thousand and six strategy, in that light this new settlement proposal will not, at around fourteen hundred, satisfy the situation.
if you then say, ah well it might expand to double that number or to five thousand, as was postulated, that then begs an even larger question, because in my submission you would then go back and revisit the alternatives of, for example, should you expand tadcaster, which has not the best facilities in its town centre, er to quote but one example of er viability and sustainability of towns.
you would look at tadcaster versus a settlement of four five thousand in the greater york area.
it is a so it's a complex set of interrelationships we're looking at er on a sub-regional basis, i do believe that there is capacity, some capacity around the inner area of york, and to what extent the greenbelt enquiry er inspector will retain what i and others and certainly york city council would believe is sufficient capacity remains to be seen, and though similar pleas were made at that enquiry i think they have to be restated here.
so my answer to the question a is, i am not against a new settlement, of the right scale in the right location, but it is not a panacea, it is not an answer to all the questions, now it's being offered in terms of a balanced strategy, i say that balanced strategy as put forward does not work, certainly beyond two thousand and six, and may grind to a halt well before two thousand and six if rates of development proceed er as they have done in certain years in the past, so it's very important to look at that, can we just revisit the public acceptance of the new settlement, of course the public have accepted it and welcomed it, it has certain attractions, i support those attractions, however it's easy for the public to accept that when measured against certain sites specific proposals that were put to them when they did not know where the new settlement would be, and still do not know, when new settlement locations are put forward it will be quite a different scenario.
the question of er p p g thirteen and transportation i think is vitally important, york will come into the position that chester er where i was just at a transportation enquiry recently, it's a very similar sort of city, it's not quite the same as cambridge, where cambridge is leaping ahead on quite, some would say draconian transportation measures, york in the forceable future will have to look at specialist transportation measures, that's important in terms of the planning policy guidance that is out, it's also in the white paper, it may be in draft p p g thirteen, it's also in i think it's p p g twenty two, renewable energy, that we should now be looking at developments which is closer to work, that links then to the question of sustainability and viability of a new settlement, i am not aware, and and i put it guardedly in those terms, of any significant employment existing or proposed in any of the new settlement proposals.
i believe it is very important to judge a new settlement in terms of viability and sustainability on the availability of some significant element of jobs, of course it will never be self contained, erm but that is a very important factor, i don't see that in the list of criteria.
so i'm not opposed to a new settlement, but let's have a very sensible approach to the question of sustainability and viability, journeys to work, er okay six to ten miles is not too much, but we can do better than that.
i think i'll reserve my other comments, sir, when we get on to some of the later points.
thank you very much.
mr sexton.
tony sexton, connell.
er my start point is p p g twelve, which in er paragraph six point four sets out the reconciliation of the er development, er economic, social, and environmental er priorities in preceding two strategies for a structure plan.
these development strategies should seek to preserve an acceptable balance of the various priorities, now in my position statement i set out the role and general advantages of new settlements as part of a development strategy in satisfying housing and employment needs of an area.
in particular i think that the new settlement strategy proposed in the structure plan is of particular relevance er to the needs of greater york, focused as it is on the historic city.
given the lack of a capacity within the city and in the settlements surrounding to absorb significant elements of major development it seems to me that it is inevitable that green fields er will have to be taken to satisfy the future development needs.
the choice therefore arises between peripheral development of the urban area and the villages surrounding or alternatively the new settlement itself, the effect of peripheral development on the city has already been discussed, and i support those who consider that it would be harmful to the character and indeed to the setting of york.
equally to, i consider that significant peripheral development of the villages would be harmful to their character as well.
it therefore follows that in my view, that it is consonant with the requirements of p p g three, particularly paragraph thirty three, that a new settlement should be part of the housing and employment strategy of the greater york area, that it does not conflict, in my view, with the consultation draft of p p g thirteen which really embodies much of what has already been said in p p g three and twelve with regard to travel issues.
dealing with one or two specific points that have been raised, particularly with regard to size, in my view the balanced community which can be envisaged within a new settlement will provide for housing, employment, community services, and recreational opportunities, it will not simply be a peripheral housing estate transferred to the open countryside, in my submission i have already stated that i do believe a new settlement of up to fourteen hundred dwellings should indeed be viable, and commercially attractive to the development industry.
i think a settlement of this size would be compatible with the general pattern of village development that exists in the york area, if a new settlement were significantly larger than this pattern i think there would be a high degree of risk of coalescence with the existing er communities, and would certainly threaten their identity.
the other point i would make is the further that the new settlement is from york itself, then the greater would be the dependency upon the motor car, this has been born out by the paper that has been submitted by york city council in table one where one can see that within the urban area within the o r r the travel to work by car is forty six point four percent, travel to work in the greater york area at the moment is sixty seven point five percent, further than that i do believe it would be even greater.
as there is indeed a need to reduce car dependency it therefore follows that the nearer to york that the new settlement is then the greater the benefits could result, equally to, the further that the new settlement is from york then i think the less it will have an effect in reducing the pressures for development upon york.
i think those pressures will still be there and that another solution will have to be found, albeit in the middle term to reduce the further demands, continuing demands for peripheral expansion of the city.
thank you, sir.
thank you.
mr jewitt.
sorry.
sorry.
sorry.
a couple of questions if i may please mr sexton.
first of all you started off with a reference to p p g twelve, and i fear my pen wasn't fast enough to note down the paragraph number, perhaps you could remind me?
er, certainly, senior inspector, erm paragraphs six point four, and continuing into six point five.
thank you.
second point, erm, you argue that a settlement of more than, say, fifteen hundred dwellings would increase the risk of coalescence with existing settlements, but surely that depends on where it is, doesn't it?
yes, i readily accept that, er my general proposition is in er connection with the settlement pattern of york, and it is necessary clearly to have er careful regard to that existing settlement pattern, erm if i may refer to the helpful plan that has in fact been produced, i believe by the county council, it is in fact an appendix to b two zero zero four, er this plan does actually indicate the general extent of the settlements outside the outer ring road of york.
clearly the settlement pattern at the moment does vary, many of the settlements are linear in form, many others are nucleate.
but they are fairly thickly spread, fairly closely to each other, it is my view that, quite frankly, the existing settlements should be protected to the extent of no new settlement being within w one mile of the vi existing village centre.
if one took that as a parameter, and applied that to the existing settlement pattern, there is indeed a high degree of risk of coalescence if in fact a new settlement were of a significant significantly larger than fourteen hundred dwellings.
i understand, thank you.
michael jewitt.
michael jewitt, hambledon district council.
i think at the outset i need to erm clarify hambledon's position, erm hambledon's position is that it objects erm to the new settlement on the basis that it's not needed and cannot be justified, and i wouldn't wish erm for the er council's position to be interpreted as anything less than that.
turning to erm the reasons erm for the council's erm objection with particular reference to er paragraph erm thirty three of p p g three, erm i think it's first of all, and it should be abundantly obvious to all present now that since the county council emba and the greater york authorities, embarked upon this strategy government guidance has changed, we believe erm government guidance now casts serious doubts erm on the erm new settlement strategy for greater york.
it's certainly true that government guidance is far more guarded erm in its support for new settlements erm the guidance has has of course been touched on but i would adem emphasize the dates of this guidance, er p p g three, housing, march nineteen ninety two, p p g twelve, development plans and regional planning guidance, february nineteen ninety two, and draft p p g thirteen, may nineteen ninety three, just looking briefly at p p g three, erm p p g, and i think it's fair to say that p p g three takes up far less welcoming stance than did the previous erm p p g erm it recognizes that new settlements are controversial, and that the scope is likely to be limited.
hambledon district council believes that insufficient regard has been payed erm to to these issues erm in the structure plan alteration, in paragraph thirty three the p p g sets down a list of criteria erm to which local authorities er should refer erm, i'll erm refer specifically to er to three of them and i and and comeback to them as i go through erm erm what i want to say, erm the first one i draw that i would draw the panel's attention to is erm that the alternative of the expansion of existing towns or villages should represent a less satisfactory method at providing the land for housing that is needed, and it's a rhetorical question really here, erm and w we would ask that erm if there hasn't been a comparative appraisal erm of the two options, and how could there be, there's no erm district or areas been identified, how can we be certain that one option is better than another under the terms of that er criterion, erm the oth second point we would draw the panel's attention is that the proposal is a clear expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities, and again i would emphasize there that hambledon district council objects, and the third one is the option of a new settlement in preference to the alternative would result in positive environmental improvements, and i'll return to that erm briefly in relation to er to hambledon, p p g twelve erm paragraph six one four that's been referred to it, includes a check list of issues against which areas in for new development in general er need to be er considered, with particular reference for reducing the need for travel, erm amongst these issues that the p p g asked the councils to take into account erm are that development should make full and effective use of land within existing urban areas, that developments er should consider development patterns that are closely related to public transport net networks, and in relation to housing, and that housing is located in such a way as to minimize car use for journeys to work, school, and other local facilities, p p g thirteen, and i would expect erm i would agree with what mr donson has said here, is that it it's draft and obviously one has to put the appropriate weight on it, but erm this reinforces and expands upon erm established government policy, reducing the need for travel, erm i don't think it's necessary for me to go into er the quotes in detail, i think that those have been er been touched on, erm, however, i would say erm that hambledon district council believes that the advice in draft p p g thirteen is much less supportive of new settlements, it suggests that greater weight must be given to the environmental implications of the additional traffic generated by new settlements erm this is, erm we believe, particularly important in view of the fact that a new settlement for york is unlikely to be self contained, and by its nature many of the residents will still look to york for essential services, social links, and employment, turning to the residual requirement, erm we have a concern over this, erm clearly a new settlement is intended to mop up any residual requirement which the er policy sets at fourteen hundred dwellings, we've heard evidence from york today that er the city can accommodate erm more erm houses than was originally envisaged, which brings the residual requirement to erm about the minimum size specified by the county council as being erm about the right level erm to make a s a new settlement self supporting, however, we would point out that there is still the possibility of erm further peripheral development around york, the greenbelt local plan and southern ryedale local plan er have not yet been statutory adopted, the inspector hasn't reported on those, we don't know what he's going to say about sites er which were at issue, or on the need for flexibility between the inner erm boundary of the greenbelt and the city, irrespective of course of what the inspector says, erm being not yet statutory adopted the county and ryedale will still have the opportunity to consider, reconsider there policies there, but putting that aside for the present, erm even if it is established that er the requirement for nine thousand seven hundred houses erm can't a occupied by er can be accommodated by er peripheral development, erm this doesn't it doesn't necessarily follow that the answer has to be a new settlement, we heard yesterday in erm great detail that erm environmental considerations have justified a reduction in the rate of development in other districts, erm in the county, i would point out that a relatively modest reduction erm in the inward migration to ryedale, selby, and york, could mop up the residual requirement, if one looks at erm the reasons for the greenbelt it is perhaps surprising that given the importance attached to maintaining its historic form and character that this is not an issue erm that's been considered.
looking specifically at our concerns with regard to erm hambledon, erm in hambledon the area search would erm extend to about eighty two kilometres, that's square kilometres, erm and contain six, this contains six villages, er with populations ranging from a hundred and fourteen to nine hundred and seventy one, erm proposed new settlement of fourteen hundred hou erm dwellings, er would be four times erm greater than the largest settlement in this area, easingwold is the nearest small town, that's about the equivalent erm equivalent size in terms of number of dwellings, erm we believe that it would er dominate the existing settlement pattern in the area, and would introduce erm a dislocation erm into er a settlement pattern.
and we think that it would be an excessive size er for that particular locality, and it wouldn't really fit in erm with er the path of the settlement pattern.
we also have concerns about how it could erm fit in to er the countryside erm of the area er with particular reference to erm paragraph thirty three of p p g three which states that erm the net effect of any new settlement will be to enhance the environmental cause only modest environmental impact, the area in hambledon, as mr wincup outlined yesterday erm is occupied essentially by the vale of york, it's an essentially flat and rolling landscape, er the intensification of agriculture's produced a very open landscape erm in that area erm there are few erm landscape elements to reduce into visibility, erm there are no significant areas of derelict land which could be, which would be reclaimed or enhanced erm by a new settlement, erm and the council believes that it would be very difficult to assimilate a new settlement into this landscape, and it would be er visible over extensive areas, to touch on erm the point raised by erm the panel about self sufficiency and self containment erm i think it's recognized in the explanatory memorandum, erm to policy h two that a new settlement will need to maintain social and economic links with a city, erm perhaps from some, this statement is explicit that erm york will continue to exert considerable influence in terms of employment, social, and community links, erm and it's unlikely that facilities which have provided a new settlement will divert much, if an , if er any, erm of this er demand for travel.
we think that the er residents of a new settlement will still look to york as the natural centre for employment, for er provision of most employment, retailing and entertainment, and if you compare it with something like er easingwold, erm which is of a similar size, erm this has achieved a degree a degree of self containment and balance, but this has occurred through erm a long period of development and a gradual growth of erm social linkages and economic linkages, however, even with such erm a gradual growth erm it's not got a high degree of self containment, erm recent developments in er transport and changes in lifestyle have reduced this even further, and it's difficult to believe that er a proposal, such as a new settlement er which is explicitly intended to cater for the development needs of york, located only ten miles from york can achieve the same level of self containment.
that's all i have to say.
thank you.
er y your use of the phrase self containment leads me to ask the question, which is that, well in my book it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as an integrated and balanced community, but i'll put mr davis on notice to define what is meant by those adjectives.
er, mr girt, can we have erm a leeds view?
yes, i'd like to come back er to mr brighton on the question of regeneration in west yorkshire, and er settlement south west of york, some people here today would not have heard the views of leeds and bradford on the h one discussions yet, about er why we are objecting to the restraints in three north yorkshire districts, harrogate, craven, and er to less extent perhaps, hambledon, on migration levels, erm we we argued there
sorry.
we argued there that erm scale of migration was not necessary to to be contained within leeds and bradford, to promote regeneration because we're s we're now, we have now exhausted all our brown field sites to the extent that we've had to take land out of our greenbelt, but there we were looking at something in the order of four thousand dwellings in three dris districts, spread over fifteen years, and we might reasonably assume that they'd come forward in a dispersed manner on a site by site basis er and be relatively small scale, certainly we would be looking at the local plans which flow from this alteration to make sure that will be the case, now a new settlement's a completely different animal, you would have to come forward quickly otherwise it would not be regarded as a success, it would it would need wide publicity, perhaps across the whole region, maybe even beyond, it would be a a major attraction to anybody thinking of moving house er from leeds to a a location which would be accessible to them to retain their employment in leeds, so i think we were talking about two different things entirely, more than that mr brighton's su suggested that fifteen hundred would not be an adequate scale, it would have to be, i think two thousand five hundred was his figure, er mr timothy's suggested th the same sort of thinking, and mr brook to, that the the settlement would have to get bigger, erm which only compounds our problem, any any settlement which grew larger and larger and inevitably would contain more employment as well as housing would become more of a threat to the regeneration of leeds and, perhaps to a lesser extent bradford, and it's on
thank you.
i'm conscious of the time, and we may like to have a break for tea, but there are also three people who wish to contribute to the discussion.
would you like to have a break for tea now?
i mean, i i ask that in the the sense that ha are your contributions going to fairly lengthy?
and mine.
right, can we take mr cunnane and then mr thomas, and we'll do you after tea.
joe cunnane, er there are five points which i want to make.
tt.
he hasn't, they haven't paid him for this car yet
yeah?
to be done, they owe the er owe the bill
mm.
they're trying to haggle with him now
mm.
but he doesn't take, he don't mess about and they'll lob the car back.
mm.
if you were alright, we've not seen anything of you.
yeah.
fine.
going up to chinky er chinky, going to ch chippy in a bit.
well, one o'clock.
the chips'll be fresh then bill.
why's that?
oh.
well they've not warmed them up.
if i'd known you was coming i would have done that bit of chicken.
i've got some sausage rolls here.
i needed some change so i got two sausage rolls, i'm gonna wire them up on microwave in a bit right?
er mixed with some beans and 
er got bread bill.
oh aye .
oh what's, what's the difference between a penis and a works bonus?
i don't know.
the wife don't mind blowing the works bonus.
i were told that other day.
i like that one.
do you wanna hear another one?
steve'll like that one.
yeah.
yeah.
er why d why do women parachutists wear jockstraps?
to stop them whistling on the way down.
tt 
told that one as well and why, why do oh what's other one?
why why don't blind people parachute?
don't know.
scares the shit out of guide dogs.
cos i read these in a paper and i thought hey these are very good ones here, i thought i'll get them, i'll remember them.
you get worse.
it's like our albert, he tells that many jokes i can never remember half of what he tells me.
he told me one twice
i still can't remember the bleeder.
he's pillock brained, your father, yesterday.
there he is with the car, drives straight into the garage and the aerial goes ping!
so he's waiting for you to come up and have a look at it.
the aerial off the car hasn't he?
snapped it?
mm.
well if he's snapped it the aerial 
i don't know whereabouts it's snapped.
though innit?
probably snapped it and 
if steve's going to have electric aerial he'll be doing the same thing.
he never ever puts them down.
or is it his c b aerial?
the c b one says i've only just let you have it!
he's forgot it's there .
he's not had much sleep though, poor sod.
you've got a spare bedroom you know.
he won't sleep in it cos i won't sleep in it.
what's up with you why?
it's still got everything chucked on it.
well 
it was emptying but it's started filling up again.
yeah.
now we got our drier other day, it come through.
ah did it?
yeah.
we can dry dry now, i just leave it, i leave both doors shut and it keeps kitchen warm.
yeah they do.
yes.
but you've gotta watch the con mind you it won't make no difference, condensation, will it?
yeah they don't half make kitchen warm though.
mm.
i used to have one but he got fed up of me using it so he cut plug off
ah
and we ended up selling it .
how's your hoover now then?
working so so.
it's the moment.
mind you er
yeah well at least it's
it's working 
better than it was.
yeah well next thing is a new hoover.
so are you doing the one o'clock or not bothering?
no can't be bothered to do owt to be honest.
that's just how i feel.
can't wait for me holidays.
you going to stay for tom's thing?
no i'm going to 
where?
or 
or i'm going to rome 
innit, rome?
yeah.
cos it's somewhere 
i'll wait for me gold card to come through and then i can go somewhere hot.
that should be here before then shouldn't it?
yeah .
got a holiday.
oh yeah that thing might come so i'll keep a check out in case i see a
yeah, parcel post coming in.
big parcel post.
midi hi-fi system.
yeah she's won in everything.
you won it?
yeah.
i won a gold card worth a thousand pound
mm.
and er
ah well you're alright.
that's , hasn't had much of a rest today so
has he been out all day then?
no, he'll be out went out at ten to seven but over a sort of i've been up since seven, i've not really sat down all day.
oh!
quarter of these?
yes please.
oh i haven't had none of them for ages packets of them.
that's what everyone says, oh i used to have those.
yeah erm alice at school, she give me one but hers weren't called them and i said they were called imps
mm.
and these were called summat else but they was exactly the same.
oh i want a bottle of pop have you any in fridge, no?
what bottles?
no.
oh i'll have a bottle of milk then.
well it's cold 
yeah.
orange bet you're ready for shutting aren't you?
what?
thought you said about you're ready for shutting.
forgot what i said then 
you're cracking up.
oh look at that, i'm gonna be a pig.
mm that's what i've cos i've not been very busy i've been picking, you know like a few peanuts there's chocolate peanuts, there's 
he's mending car, he's been working all day and now he's mending car 
it conked out other day
conked out other day and he thought it were points, he changed points and i says to him have you changed plugs?
he went i knew there were summat
now he's changing plugs.
what, in the dark?
he's got one of them clip-on
oh.
oogifibs oh a couple of them.
to do with it.
well that's what i, that's what i've been doing.
nibbling?
nibbling, that's the worse thing i can do.
i know.
i were just like that when i were at home on me own at night, john used to play dominoes on a friday night, the kids were in bed i'd be in and out of kitchen 
yeah i did 
picking.
too but this one, he hasn't been on nights.
three twenty three please.
i've got three i haven't got the twenty but i've got the three 
ta.
i've just informed him that he can work longer if he wants, i thought smart move.
have you got a bag i can put these into oh there's one over here.
i thought i don't see enough of him now,till half past seven and then he says home all day 
like he was before .
i think i prefer that actually.
do you?
i do, yeah.
tarrah.
yeah that's true.
you can't win no matter what you do.
ta-ta.
i know, it's just that i remembered picking milk up this morning to make maggie a drink, and there didn't seem a lot so i thought i must remember 
a new bottle isn't there?
no.
there never is is there?
so when i see it cos i thought i have alice and them, so i and in the room and i fridge.
oh dear .
i wonder where my torch has gone, as if i didn't know like.
it were on windowsill in corner.
you know using it.
yeah.
shan't worry about it 
that's not the point, he knows damn well it's me snap.
there's your spare light up here.
i know, i wondered why you'd left it on table.
that were mine.
where?
in car.
oh and it fell out of your pocket?
yeah.
ah i just wondered, shall i turn this light off?
er yes.
why did you fill this up and leave it on table?
i don't know to be honest.
it were sat 
i took it to work one day
oh.
and used it.
oh i wondered,
mm oh i thought light were in there then,
it is a bit dark innit?
you've been to shop, did you get ?
ooh!
me memory don't work any more, it's shut down for christmas.
where is me pen?
there's always a pen in me bag.
do you know, you could've filled that in, i could've shoved it in post box.
i know.
you'll end up with about a dozen letters on mantel again cos i always forget to post things.
well i'll post that tomorrow.
well there's no rush.
aye you can, yeah.
well usually if there's not a stamp wanted, is there a stamp wanted?
no.
yeah usually if there's no stamp wanted i get one of lasses while i'm at work, they'll drop it off for me.
i always say will you do me a favour and they shove it in box.
erm ah
?
no, shower.
shower?
why do you want your hair washing?
no.
i'm gonna have a proper bath later.
see you later.
well i says to her, i says what,do won't they have a big gap?
but some of these tapes are funny.
why's that?
well you know where they're working outside all time?
and traffic.
traffic and all sorts, see i were talking to joyce this morning
mm.
and, i meant to listen to it but i forgot
oh.
and there were buses and lorries and, quite a lot of the tapes, they've got buses and lorries and all sorts, with working outside.
with you being a lollipop lady it's bound to happen innit?
mm.
haven't you thought of going back to doctors?
haven't you thought it costs three pound bloody sixty a prescription?
yeah, and he always writes me out a couple and i ain't got the money.
tt.
he never decides to leave me one thing.
how did 
whereabouts did you say your mum were born?
me mum?
yeah.
durham.
and your dad was born here?
no.
scotland.
scotland?
so i'm er i've got durham, scottish er me grandparents come from lee lancs
lee lancs?
yeah, me mum always said lee lancs
mm.
or was she born in lee lancs?
anyway they were born one place and moved one place and then they come to after i were born.
well let's hope they can try and decipher my bloody dialect, because
i 
my granddad yeah, yeah but my granddad, he's scotch my other granddad was a german, me grandma were jewish and i were born in london so let them fathom that out.
favom 
mm 
yeah i just write where you were born, where your cos it says regional accent, i'm assuming that means 
kensington i were born, london.
i just put london.
yeah well it's london anyway.
it's easier.
it's like your billy he 
where did you put billy was born?
hong kong.
no.
he was.
it says regional accent, well he's yorkshire int he?
he's a chinese 
he's a chinese what?
ah it's, i've got one to fill in, i must remember, nadine's.
she's turkish isn't she?
she's turkish yeah, they come to london.
ah.
cos the accent she's got is london.
is it?
yeah.
doesn't sound like mine.
yeah but there's different parts of london, you all sound different don't you?
mm.
cos don't forget there's people who's moved from donny and had their kids in london
mm.
and they sound different.
our billy don't sound like steve and gary does he?
where they're proper yorkshire-ified, our billy's like a posh sort of yorkshire.
well he were born in hong kong weren't he?
yeah but he g er came here at fifteen bloody months old didn't he?
he were talking.
only mum and dad.
couldn't say much more.
ah there she is.
who's that?
nadine.
oh.
there's a bit on bottom please write their first name are there any people mentioned above who's first language is not english and that's nadine
yeah.
cos she talks both.
does she?
yeah.
i've heard her talking to her dad.
oh.
and i s that's when i says to her where do you come from?
she says me dad's turkish.
i remember when we stopped out in bahrain at er 
how do you spell turkish?
t u r k i s h i mean they 
you missed summat.
t u r k 
k i
i missed i again, i tell you i'm rubbish at spelling, me.
mm they originate from turkey and then they moved to london.
but when we stopped in bahrain out in hong kong, well when we got into hong kong, you get this little tiny cup it's about an eighth of the size of that bloody thing, and it's thick and it's horrible, their coffee.
what is it?
coffee.
we stopped at the airport and they says who wants coffee or who wants tea?
and you thought they're coming round with bloody kiddy's toy cups.
but it w it was thick, it were bloody rank it was.
you've never tasted coffee like it.
thick coffee.
i've heard about that before.
oh it's horrible.
i like making me own coffee, at least i know i can drink it.
aye.
yeah.
i'm hoping that washing dries.
it'll dry, the sun's out anyway innit?
it's going in again, it saw me put socks out.
don't say it's going in again!
do you know it's never failed me yet, i put socks out
yeah.
and it always ends up going right, so they don't dry, right funny so it don't d or it rains.
that's why i thought i'll get the stupid things out this morning and then them, they'll all be dried by tomorrow.
i can't remember if i've been in bathroom and picked them up, steve's getting a sod with him getting bath every night
mm.
he's er just dropping them.
did i tell you, had gary paid for his er insurance on that, that er tt if anything happens to him going over to france, he's insured 
oh yeah.
twenty one quid,
well how long how long's he going, for a week or a fortnight?
fortnight.
fortnight?
yeah.
when's he go, may?
sixteenth or nineteenth, somewhere around there.
comes back in june?
no?
oh i dunno, he comes back when he feels like it.
end of may, beginning of june.
yeah.
i've got summat for your gary.
for his ear?
no, oh no.
erm he bought that car off steven didn't he?
yeah.
i found instructions.
ah.
and i think, i know where they are, i think they're on bed.
oh.
cos i got them out and i thought i must take them downstairs and give them to maggie for her to give them to gary.
right.
twisted round then gonna say something 
oh.
thought while i'm thinking about it i'll do it.
you what ?
just saying i'm a stupid bugger.
what you done now?
i checked steven's bedroom for washing
mm.
but you left 
round, i've, i have checked bathroom, i took it out of bathroom and guess what, i didn't check?
what?
our bedroom.
that's on pile in bedroom.
i thought ooh!
aren't i .
yeah that belongs to that car.
ah.
he played with it once, it's stuck on top of the bloody cupboard like everything else he buys.
he's saving it for his kids, that's what he says.
mm.
or he'll end up giving it away as a present, there's nowt wrong with box, car, nothing.
he'll save it for his own.
well that's it.
if he gets gotta get a bird first.
ah 
your gary's happy as he is, he's enjoying life.
he is.
that's the mistake steven's made girlfriends.
mm.
knowing he can't afford them with him being in college
yeah.
and then he's just gone mad, i think they've gone to his head.
did i tell you they call him juan now?
yeah that's a new one innit?
yeah.
be alright if one of the birds turn up here and you say oh hello florence, oh no i'm not florence i'm zebedee.
yeah.
you know?
yeah that's true.
i'm wondering what that thing is on maureen's wall, have you seen it?
no, ain't been looking.
it looks it flaps about, if you look at maureen's wall near drainpipe you can see this thing 
flapping all over.
i keep meaning to 
whereabouts are you looking?
you know drainpipe
yeah 
you've got that little window, then drainpipe?
yeah.
at side of drainpipe.
you can see it flapping about, you watch in a sec it starts flapping.
can you see it?
mm don't know what that is.
i don't know.
i keep meaning to 
see if it's a vent or summat or a piece of plastic.
might have put one in.
they've put it in the sun whatever it is.
unless it's that cooker thing, i think her cooker's there.
she's got one of them oogies them erm tt fan things.
oh it might be an extractor.
that's it.
yeah.
she's got one of them.
mm and that's about right place where it is, i wonder if it's that.
i dunno but i like her curtains.
yeah they're nice aren't they?
oh.
i didn't like them when she first put them up
oh.
but they're alright now.
flo's trying to con me.
why?
she wants me rails, these metal rails that i've got.
she mentioned that the other day didn't she?
yeah.
she wanted them so i says to her if she wanted them
i was after wooden ones
mm.
now i says, now i've seen some wooden ones in her house, i said 
yeah.
if she wants to swap i'll swap her.
yeah.
the crafty bugger says to me, what did she say, they're fourteen pound summat i think she says, these wooden ones
ah, i dunno.
and er i says well i thought you'd got some.
now 
mm.
i'm sure i've seen one in her house
yeah.
and she says no, she says one i've got's only a thin one, you want that thicker one, you know with these being thick 
yeah.
she says so i thought if i buy you one she says you give me them two, i says whoa hang on a minute, i says i've got two windows
yeah.
not one window, i says i'm not giving you two for one.
two for one, that's bloody daft.
i says and at that price why don't you buy them yourself
yeah.
you know?
and she says well i thought if i buy you one you can buy other one, i says go and naff off.
well that's daft innit?
i says i don't, i says when am i gonna be able to go to town i says and afford fifteen quid for another bloody rail?
i says you 
when you've already got some up.
yeah!
she wants me to take them down and swap them for one.
steve'll go mad.
yeah.
bloody would an'all.
i thought you crafty sod.
she wants them to extend to eight feet, well these don't extend to eight feet, they extend to seven.
oh.
and i thought no i'm not, steve's just cleaned them up.
yeah.
he spent about two hours in with them.
have you seen what he's done to ends of them, they've gone silvery, he's rubbed and rubbed and rubbed 
rubbed too bloody hard .
and he's rubbed all colour off it.
they've got silver ends on them ones.
i said 
i says can't you rub harder on other piece.
he ain't done them ones yet.
he's done these ones.
well they, are they not silvery then?
well he washed this one first and then he went over there and er then it dawned on him that the ends pull off 
ah!
on ends, so he took the two ends off, cleaned the rails and he was sat on settee watching telly rubbing away and rubbing away and i says hey you gonna put them ends back on?
and he'd been rubbing for that long they'd gone that colour.
like my steven with my new non-stick pans.
i remember.
he took all the black off.
he scrubbed and scrubbed till it all come off didn't he?
mm.
how old were he then, about thirteen?
no he were younger than that.
i can remember that, he come over and told me.
how did you get them all black mum, i said they're bloody new ones .
not now.
mm.
i want a new frying pan.
i keep using me best pan.
i ain't got no best pans, i've had my pa most of my pans, they've all near enough come from either embassy cigarette coupons or number six coupons, and i've still got them and i've had some of them twenty bloody years, all them pans.
have you?
you know when we saved them berkeley packets?
yeah.
can you remember what we saved them for?
marion asked me other day what we were saving them for, i said well we saved them oh i remember!
we saved them, they were on about cameras and that and then we found out inserts inside it that you got it with that didn't you?
well it was, it was, yeah yeah.
yeah.
i've still got stacks of them in kitchen.
i think i threw all mine away.
oh we did send for something but i can't remember what.
she got one.
you know like we got?
what did i send off to get gary them radio earphones?
regal.
oh.
you know them that we got to send off for that, i got head bag and you got that?
yeah.
well i s i were saying to irene, i says did you ever get one?
mm.
she says yeah i'm sure we did
mm.
i says well if you don't smoke them i says me and maggie'll get them for you
yeah.
i says she'll get gary to collect them at work and that i says 
yeah.
and i'll ask you know 
yeah.
dave and them to save for me again 
yeah.
i says and get yoursen summat.
anyway er she rooted about in drawers yesterday and er
she find it?
she found this booklet and it were like a cheque book
mm.
it's got the picture on but it's a cheque
yeah?
please send me one blah blah whatever it is.
anyway i were looking and i looked and i looked and i looked and i says well what cigarettes do you use for it?
cos it didn't but same 
yeah, yeah.
all prizes were the same but it didn't 
yeah, yeah.
bloody cigar packets.
i said ooh we can't help you with them, i says i haven't the faintest idea of anybody that smokes them.
not cigars.
cos she says don't you?
i says no i says i don't know anybody at all.
so i couldn't help her there at all.
well i give gary them ra that radio earphones, he's got it in upstairs in the box on top of all the other bloody boxes.
do you just keep collecting it?
well.
wouldn't bother.
i banged my finger on 
mm.
didn't half hurt.
thought bloody hell.
it's a bus.
a bus.
a bus.
my little'un said bus er our cr 
yeah craigy were on about a bus, a bus and erm little'un said bus.
oh, she 
and then our craigy said erm home and away nan home and away nan.
did he?
mm.
chuffing hell.
thought ooh bloody hell.
his speech is getting a lot better.
it's not clear though kath.
and he, he'd shout and
i thought that were that brian now.
where?
i don't know.
can't see where they've gone.
oh it looks like him.
what the crippled brian?
he's looking at your house.
crippled brian?
he's looking at your house.
or is he looking at the bus?
he's looking at the bus.
he walked up here, walked to your house, looked at the bus i don't know where'd he come from 
and do you know that's only trouble with these nets
i'm gonna have a wee bill's bloody worse, he stands there, he looks out the bloody window as much as any bugger.
he has he's just parked car, walked up here, looked at bus and walked back again.
is it brian?
no, this one's driving a car.
he were looking at that bus.
he might be another one of them from the er from the council.
yeah, well it's, they've done nowt but look at it for last three month.
i like his registration .
well he parked car there 
mm.
walked up there right to your house, eyed bus up and then walked back again.
yeah because what they did they they've done it a few a times though different people, look and see how far it is before it's a blind spot.
your bill nearly hit it other week he were telling me.
i dunno but like er say the d a driver's coming this way, he wants to see how far down the road it is before it's a blind spot again.
and if they're from the council or whatever, or whoever does the roads or whatever they'll probably get in contact with him again.
i should imagine they are from the council.
that weren't too bad that one.
oh 
that was only a oner.
it sounded better.
have a real good do.
wouldn't mind if i could just bloody bring it up.
and it won't?
no it won't shift.
mm.
bloody come up one way or the other.
oh i could fancy a nice horse.
i like leg.
i don't want corned beef, that's, that, i don't want that.
i like leg.
you like leg?
yeah.
mm.
i'm just debating whether to run in that kitchen and put that kettle on again, what do you reckon?
well i checked, you're alright, you're safe.
that's alright then .
i checked cupboard.
i'm not going in cupboard
everything's on top .
i'm gonna have to go and get some more milk.
some miluk 
yeah, i'll nip this afternoon and get some.
i got strawberry or raspberry, i've got one of them.
normally i er put a banana and a strawberry together to give it a different taste.
oh yeah, pocket money.
it's increased.
what about last week's?
yeah 
i owe you a penny now.
i know you do, that's next week's.
have to save a penny.
yeah that's next week.
yeah i put it in me pocket last night and i thought right i'll give her her two p and i bet your life she says what about other one.
fifty pence the other week.
gets a fifty pence but she don't like a fifty pence, she likes it all in change.
so she's got loads.
yeah so she's got a lot of money.
anyway she left twelve pence on the floor and gary says whose is this money, said you leave it there, it's for enid's no nobody touch this chuffing twelve pence.
she left twelve pence on floor and what?
she left twelve pence on the floor and bill put it in the cubby hole in the fireplace and gary says whose is this money and arthur was going to pick it up an'all, he says leave that he says that's for enid's money.
her twelve p.
well there are.
twelve p.
mm.
what's sh what's billy do, take her to shop?
he gives no bill gives him fifty p, fifty p to, for whenever he sees her
yeah.
and then he, he goes and buys her smarties and crispies.
that's what i says to 
mm 
does he do that on the way out?
mm.
unless bill's gone to the shop and he brings them for her.
ooh.
so how far have we got now?
not far to go.
have to change tape.
ooh.
it'll have more coughs and splutters and er traffic and everything on this side.
well never mind.
oh gawld.
well it's bound to be hot i've just made it.
mm.
i'm alright doing it in pencil.
you've gotta go over it all.
oh i don't know.
i've gotta ring anyway, nine sixteen 
you've gotta d 
twenties thirties, forties.
is that the eldest is the forties?
no irene's the eldest the crafty bleeder.
that's what i'm looking for, i'm hoping she's rubbed it out in pencil.
she scribbled it out.
she doesn't, she didn't mind taping or owt, she were pretending that 
yeah.
she said cos she were talking, she knew tape were still running and she were pretending to say that she didn't say i could do it but she did
mm.
erm what she were arguing with me about is her age.
now she's sixty four
yeah.
so she didn't want me to put sixty four down, but that's cheating
mm.
cos if you know the age you're supposed to put the age down
mm.
cos some people'll tell you and some people won't.
so i put sixty four down so well i didn't put sixty four, i put thirty plus thirty four
yeah, sixty four.
so that made sixty four.
so she jumped up, grabbed the pencil and everything, she got a screwdriver first,i thought she were gonna stab me with screwdriver and she were looking for a pencil
erm but luckily she's rubbed it out with thingy so 
you're putting it back in.
i'm putting it back in.
.
so there.
now it's back again, it says thirty plus thirty four.
she wanted me to put twenty one!
bloody hell.
i says get lost, i says that's cheating.
i'm sixteen i am.
i put your age in.
forty seven.
you cheeky cow!
forty seven, i'm not that old.
it's a good job i put forty two then innit?
oh that's being generous.
have you already turned forty three?
i were born in forty seven.
you work it out.
i'm twenty eight.
i thought you were forty well it were your birthday in september weren't it?
you're forty four this year?
am i?
i dunno.
i have to work out how old bill is, bill's
fifty, that's three year.
sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, that's forty three forty four this year.
forty four then this year.
if your birthday er i keep getting mixed up, it's your anniversary in february and it's your birthday in september.
that's it.
so i'll have to change yours to forty three, i put forty two.
well one year ain't gonna make no difference.
i forgot you've already had your birthday.
mm.
oh i'll just put a plus sign at it.
no, no pluses!
that'll make me bloody double it!
i can try hard can't i?
plus one then.
plus one.
no i'll leave it at forty two.
i'm, got you only had your birthday three month ago.
or somewhere around there.
i'm thinking it's your birthday tomorrow, and it's not it's your anniversary tomorrow.
mm.
september eighth.
that's right.
and february the sixth.
yeah.
so you'll have a right good anniversary tomorrow cos nobody'll be in.
bed.
yeah more than likely.
i had a good anniversary.
how do you work that out?
well i kept me own present, i stayed in bed half a day didn't i ?
mm.
you swore on my machine.
did i say knickers or a worser word?
no.
it were goo that's good compared to some of them.
i says to her when she were leaving it, i says to her there's people that swear and that.
she says it don't matter.
and there's fs and there's bs.
oh well they ain't got fs and bs on 
it's linda that fs and bs'd.
steve swore.
er and there's somebody else somebody else swearing.
if you rub out all the swear words you'll have n no bloody tapes left will you?
oh no it's not bad, i think it were er the first swear word i remember that went, went on it were wait a minute tape two, tape one ain't got none on that i know of.
oh.
tape two has tape three has.
tape two and tape three.
and this is tape four int it?
mm.
there's a lot of people won't let you do it.
won't they?
no.
i think they think you've got to have a conversation where you
yeah.
talk about all what you talk about
yeah.
but i don't, i stop it when you get there.
yeah.
if they don't want
no but that's personal innit?
yeah.
so i don't.
i'd've filled all twenty up now if they 'd 've all let me.
mm.
but you can't be doing that can you?
no.
if they got five tapes off everybody by the christ they'll have some listening to do won't they?
mm.
cos what's four tapes?
when i've finished this one i'll have one side left
ninety minutes a tape, that's an 
three hours.
hour and half, that's three, that's six hours.
how do you work that out?
well i taped six hours.
ninety minutes a tape, that makes six.
oh yeah.
do you know what i've just noticed?
what's that?
cough.
er
er watch that light, cough.
well you just said cough and it went off.
i were watching it, every time you cough it starts flashing.
dinky!
steve keeps saying he were he says i'm having that tape recorder, i says you're not she's coming to take it back.
i'm gonna tell her i'm having that tape recorder, i says you're not, she's coming back for it on friday.
it's only a cheapo anyway innit?
i know, we've got that one.
we've got four walkmans in here like it, there's one at top there, i think that's same as this one.
that one's a radio thingy, the one steven's got's a, a radio thingy, this one isn't.
but what he likes about it is microphone.
what's that one?
that's what my brother's son did to his father.
bloody having them then is he?
i paid fi fifteen bleeding quid for that and i sai cos this year, i didn't know he'd done this cos he sits it like that
mm.
or clips it like that and you can't tell
mm.
anyway he give it to his father and, well i'd already bought the other one i'd 
mm 
cos i says if he looks after it i'll buy him one with radio on as well 
yeah.
so i just paid that one with radio.
but i wish he'd stop nicking my bleeding torch, he's getting a swine for that.
i only got it back, you know when i got it back?
when he moved out.
no when batteries are dead.
oh.
i get all me torches back when battery's dead.
i got one with a big chunky battery, it should've lasted about six month to a year
yeah.
a right good'un it were, our arthur give me torch and i had to buy a battery, i paid about three pound odd for this battery
tell you what i bet he had it under the blankets reading his books.
he did.
you've got it.
exactly.
i wondered what that was?
it's something clanging round in your washing machine.
it'll be zip on his erm tracksuit.
i found jacket, did i tell you?
no.
i got jacket and bottom.
and some underwear.
i can't stick that.
i like that.
i can't stick it.
i like it if i do it with bacon and sausage.
ooh no.
i got your billy yesterday and i says oh do us a favour i says will you say owt, anything, just
yeah.
tell us about breathing, no you're not getting my voice on that thing he says, i, i don't like hearing me voice and everything, and he threw it on the settee .
oh we had a right laugh about it .
couldn't stop laughing.
me and your mam did one this morning, i had about twenty minutes left on it and she helped me finish it off
yeah.
so i could swap tapes over.
oh very good.
very good.
yeah.
yeah.
yeah, what's yeah mean ?
yeah 
i don't know.
yeah.
yeah, yeah and all that, bloody hell.
what have you been doing?
have you been to your mam's?
yeah i've been to me mam's, i've just had a cup of coffee and some fairy bun summat or other and ate these fairy buns.
the crafty get, she didn't give me one.
i've been over and she didn't give me one.
yet she comes in here and eats me cakes and biscuits.
she had toast and tea this morning.
bloody hell.
i stood in kitchen and i smothered this slice of toast and butter were just literally running off it and it were 
running off it.
all soggy and floppy 
oh god.
but we had to do that with her having a sore throat.
yeah.
god.
mm.
shoes want polishing kath.
i know, steven's nicked all polish
and i had another one, you know one of them with sponges on?
yeah.
and he snapped sponge off end.
sat and got going like that 
ooh.
couldn't stop laughing.
what's j j doing anyway?
gone to her mam's?
no she's going somewhere we went to donny other day all money we've been getting like, when i first, she, when i first, before we got that giro for me 
yeah.
and j j, she got one week's money didn't she?
mm.
so i went and i give her that
that that you got.
sixty two 
yeah.
right?
out of that other money
your seventy odd?
yeah.
then i got my seventy odd and she got another week's money and we just put it all together and we split it down the middle said right there's your half, there's mine
mm.
erm she says er right do what you want with yours, i'll do what i want with mine.
anyhow i went out and i got this baby nest shawl thing
oh for baby?
yeah.
yeah.
thirty quid.
you what!
thirty quid it's gorgeous, i looked at it she picked this one up, white, and i says don't like it
is that the one in 
i says tight get, only eight quid.
is that the one in pushchair where their feet are all covered up and
no it's a baby shawl thing, you know, where you carry, to come out of hospital in
oh yeah.
like w a qu quilt thing with a zip.
you know what i mean?
and it's got like a hood thing.
and you can put them in pushch er pram, sorry
yeah.
yeah.
well i got one of them and it's pure silk, pale green and white and with all lacy i thought i like it.
are you keeping that for all of them now?
yeah.
that's your special one?
yeah that cost us thirty quid.
good god.
and er i says are you going out?
she says what on?
i says that.
says no that's your money, you buy whatever you want for baby, i'll buy she bought her one for eight quid and i says let's have a look at your one, yours are only eight quid i says, well how much were yours?
i says thirty, she went
you paid thirty quid for that 
i says yeah.
she says you 
ah.
bloody hell.
so anyway i went to index cos i want i want and a watch i'm looking for a watch cos, and i thought oh aye i come to rings, i thought well i owe her a ring so i thought oh better half eternity ring they're cheap anyway.
yeah.
and anyhow twenty nine ninety nine so i bought her one.
i says here don't say i don't buy you nowt.
says it's me birthday on twenty seventh of february, i want a watch.
anyway she says which one do you want?
i says that one, sixty four er er pound something
bloody hell!
and, oh it's gorgeous, great big, you know
did she get it?
no she's buying it for me birthday.
she'll have no money by then.
so, oh she will, she's got some in 
when's baby due?
april
ah.
april, may time.
shame you couldn't have it for your birthday.
i know.
i'm having me watch for me birthday anyway so 
you're having your watch?
yeah, for me birthday.
and er
oh.
says that one should last me just over a year, that one should.
well she bought me one last year 
sixty pound for a year!
yeah.
bloody hell!
and the one cost me twenty quid and that lasted me just over a year.
i was 
stephen's last him about six week.
if it starts going funny he takes the back off to have a look, no matter how much you pay for it.
mm.
he dismantles the lot, he's stupid.
i've got more straps and bloody cordless watches, everything, all over the place.
yeah.
cos wayne give him one, he paid seventy quid for it and he dismantled that one in three week of having it.
tt yeah it's in index.
have you got index book?
yeah it's in cupboard.
i'll show you it.
i'll show that ring i got her as well.
in cupboard.
my beloved's been in this cupboard and messed it all up.
i've got sarah coming down this afternoon 
you have?
yeah she slept in for work again.
ha!
she's gonna get sack her by time she's finished.
mm well
she's more at home than she is at work.
that one.
did i tell you she got her inheritance?
inheritance?
yeah she twenty one other week and 
and how much she get?
four and a half thousand.
four and a half thousand pounds!
did she?
yeah.
she's chuffed to death.
only thing she weren't chuffed about is she couldn't cash cheque, it had to go all through bank and everything.
yeah it would have done, yeah.
thirty three.
mm that's the one i got her.
that one.
oh you got her mine.
i were looking at that one
yeah, thirty three quid.
so i can take that middle'un off and get it to match.
yeah.
that's what i were gonna do.
yeah i got her that one, over there.
it's nice that.
thirty
thirty three quid.
er twenty nine ninety nine.
twenty nine ninety nine.
yeah.
is it real gold?
yeah it's real gold and diamond.
nine carat gold.
diamond set.
good god.
yeah diamonds and sapphires it, it's got half, half er
half eternity.
eternity, that's right.
one two three three of one, four of other.
yeah.
oh it's nice that.
and then i thought well it's, it's got, it says diamonds and sapphire, i thought they can't be real but it says, you know
if it says diamonds they're real.
yeah they're real.
it's only cos they're chips
yeah.
diamond chips, they'll be little tiny ones 
yeah.
smack in middle are they?
yeah they are.
yeah i thought they are er smaller than that.
ah there they are, there.
yeah.
that's a diamond and sapphire just a bit bigger than yours 
yeah.
that one.
aha.
it's nice that,
but it looks nice, yeah, i bought her that one.
there it is, i think that's it, twenty six, twenty six, twenty six, twenty si yeah that's it.
see that?
yeah.
that's erm erm er er sarah's engagement ring.
sar sarah's engagement ring?
yeah she got engaged.
twenty six.
couldn't remember if i told you.
thirty four quid.
mm very nice.
cos i says thirty odd quid, she says yeah they're on special
mm.
cos they're knock-down prices aren't they?
yeah.
and er she says that she didn't want summat expensive when she could be buying summat for kitchen, you know, like a microwave or summat like that.
yeah.
so i don't blame her really.
i've buggered me alarm clock up.
i got mad because 
how did you do that?
it wouldn't set so i hit it and you know buttons?
i went like that on top and i said bloody work!
and all buttons went inside.
oh!
steve looked at it, he said i think you'd better go to shop and buy yoursen a new one.
i don't know.
sometimes they've got some in that book, they're in them leaflets.
i would have picked that one as well
like steve's.
that one?
yeah.
yeah i that one as well.
there were that one and this other one but i like this other one because it's like that.
there.
it might be on one of them leaflet things, you know they make the leaflets?
yeah.
not in there.
might be on that.
but they've got some nice things in there.
yeah they have.
i were looking for an alarm clock, i thought i better have a new one else i'm gonna start sleeping in for work.
mm.
but they're usually cheap in here but i want one that 
yeah.
plays music, i can't hear an alarm clock.
it's got to
be a radio alarm clock?
yeah.
yeah.
otherwise i can't get up.
cos steve always had to wake me up for work
yeah.
and er then he decided to buy me a radio alarm for christmas.
mhm.
and it worked, i've heard it ever since till i hit it.
haven't you done owt like this, things like this?
can't you have them sort of thing?
oh aye yeah we've got a toaster and one of them bra er breville toaster things and
?
er i got rid of that thing.
did you?
yeah.
i've got me microwave now though.
oh cos ain't you got one summat like this?
eh?
didn't she have a two ring burner or summat like that?
yeah she had a two ring cooker thing, yeah.
she got rid of it?
yeah.
ah.
i thought you weren't supposed to have one of them?
you're not.
but you can have microwave?
you can have microwave, yeah.
can't you have a deep fat fryer and things like that?
no it's a fire hazard.
oh.
oh that's not a fire hazard, you can have it?
yeah.
yeah.
they're cheaper in here i know.
mm.
my 
it's with condensation of fat and everything er with them just decorating all rooms and that it's
ah.
so you can have microwaves, toaster, kettle
yeah.
and things like that and that's about it.
yeah.
oh i were just wondering.
can't find clocks.
can't find bugger all.
oh so they'll be round here somewhere then won't they?
yeah, radio alarm clocks.
i just wondered how much they are cos that one that er just disintegrated on me, i got it from britannia.
it's rubbish.
it's never worked proper
yeah.
it sort of played about two or three minutes of music and then it went crrrkkkkkk for a few minutes, that's why i kept hitting it.
and then music, if you hit it, music come back on.
oh well
stupid it were.
have to have a proper look later, i can't find it.
ah found one.
i says i can't find them, i found them.
here we are 
what's that one, number four, number four digital clock, mains operated, fast time, alarm set, snooze feature, battery back-up four ninety five.
not bad 
that's not bad at all that.
no.
seven ninety nine.
six ninety five.
six ninety five and a six fifty.
very good.
look.
yeah.
yeah.
i might have that little'un.
yeah.
you can stick batteries in it, i prefer them with batteries.
at least if battery goes out 
you mean if electric goes off?
yeah if electric goes off.
mm.
that was supposed to be battery back-up system, the one i threw on floor.
cos i dismantled it and threw it on floor .
tt i got right mad.
it's a good job i've got two.
so i shall have one of them i think.
yeah.
yeah.
there you are.
i'll turn this tape off now, let you listen to yoursen.
oh god 
i'll have this one ted.
looks a good'un, futuristic one 
mm.
steve likes them.
you buying this duck?
yeah please.
i've got, i, i had a rough idea of what he'd got and what he hadn't now.
ah.
i'm getting there.
i'm doing well so far, i haven't fetched one back have i?
no.
that must be good.
it is.
see a few of them, you know right at beginning where it shows you preface?
yeah.
that's where it's jumped, not on the film itself.
yeah you know why, it's, it's because of cont continuous rewinding.
you always get damage at front of tape.
best thing to do is just cut it off.
ah we will do later cos 
well or yeah.
he uses cuts it all off and gets rid of it.
yeah it's erm any damage on tape, nine out of ten times i is the first foot it's because when they wind them back i it, it's a jag
tight innit?
complete jag all the time when they wind them back.
yeah.
aye well that doesn't bother us.
no.
ta-ta.
ta-ta love.
shorts and so i thought right, clean or mucky, you're in the wash.
so , thought i'll get them all washed and put back in bedroom before he notices they're missing.
so that's what i did.
now what we're on about yeah as i were on about, that er what i do is, with days like this, cos you can never guarantee if they're gonna be dry, wet or what, so i watch to see if it rains, if it don't they're virtually dry when i fetch them in.
so that's what i've been doing.
i don't know whose t-shirt's whose.
that one's mine.
so that's what i've been doing.
i fetch them all in, stick them on clothes horse, they're all round fire while i'm on lollipop and then nip to shop and when i come in within half an hour they were bone dry.
easy.
that's one way to do it innit?
fetch them in at half past three.
but if they're dry i just fold them up and put them away anyway.
i'm just transferring socks.
so, how come you managed to sleep in again?
i didn't sleep in, i were up .
you were up?
breakfast and cup of coffee, i just didn't 
you didn't?
i didn't fe i felt wide awake but i was tired
yeah.
so you thought nah i'm not going, i'm stopping at home.
third time that's been in the washer since christmas day.
and that's only cos last twice i've thinked of it.
where is his lordship anyway?
i haven't the foggiest idea.
i don't keep track any more, i let him get on with it.
it's easier.
how come dave's home?
what?
how come dave's home?
i thought you says he were working on them mate's car?
which one?
mate's car.
oh he's finished doing, they've finished doing that one.
oh.
yeah when did they finish that?
monday i think, he's got ano the bloke's been sacked an'all, he's got another one to do.
ah well that's not too bad.
it keeps him from getting bored.
dunnit?
yeah.
socks.
oh i'm doing well, i've got one odd sock so far.
brill.
stephen 
oh he's gone back to j j.
i told you he went back to j j did i?
yeah.
he'll make his chuffing mind up.
oh aye it don't bother me.
hey?
i give up on them.
i give up on them all.
i sent him to doctors.
he come in, his eye's right out here, and it's streaming with water and he says he's been to hospital, they dripped some water in it, washed it out must be mine that, what do you reckon?
it is.
oh.
i can never tell cos he pinches them all.
if it's a t- shirt it's his.
so he says.
anyway it was streaming with water so er i told him to get down to doctors, he asked if, that's why i said oh stephen's been back.
it must've been while i was stood up there.
and he's er what you called it?
er went to nurse so i lent him bike.
it's a bit dangerous driving round if his eyes are like that.
well mine's got a visor and everything on it.
one of them comes right down there.
so just airing these off.
that's what they're like when i fetch them in,it's not bad is it?
no they're dry.
so i just air them off.
what you been doing all day?
on knock?
no.
not a thing?
not gobbing, nowt?
no.
you're having a right lazy day?
mm.
bet you get fed up with that job don't you?
yeah, i don't like it 
oh 
it were nice monday cos she come round hygiene on time
yeah.
she goes, she started being a cocky little bitch, she's only fucking nineteen
yeah.
she started being a cocky little bitch, and she wears make- up, really plasters it on
oh yeah.
and she started gobbing, i says oh go and take your fucking make-up off you tart.
so she took me off hygiene.
stupid cow, she 
is she a supervisor a chargehand or summat?
chargehand.
at that age?
and do i give a fuck?
no.
no i bet you don't, i wouldn't neither.
cor.
i quite liked it where i were yesterday cos he were alright, him.
are you in mucky end or other end?
in between.
in between?
well that says a right lot that does .
all i know there's a mucky end and another end.
aye
oh well that's not bad.
i just needed a day's recovery.
they'll say every time she's on days she doesn't turn up.
i rang up.
have you rung up already?
yeah.
can't say owt if you 
tt.
what you tell them?
slept in?
told them i had migraine.
tt.
i'm running out of fucking excuses now, i'm going to write book out.
you'll have to remember what you've used.
your grandma's dead four times.
poor old grandma .
i'm a rotten bastard aren't i?
no.
everybody does it.
you're not on your own.
i tell you summat i'm getting fed up because every time i don't feel absolutely great, and i go over there and say will you stand in for me, i don't feel well, i don't want to.
it was an arrangement we had i, i wouldn't phone in cos you have to wait three weeks for your wages if i phone in.
so i says i wouldn't phone in, i'd let you know and you could do it and i'll pay you myself, i don't mind, you know, losing a day's pay.
i said i'll pay you mysen.
so er she says yeah fair enough then she won't have to wait three week, cos it's only me that's losing, not her.
yeah.
anyway she's been going out on and off for quite a while now.
so i thought well i don't have to wait three weeks for mine so next time i don't feel great i'm gonna call in and take a couple of days off.
according to them i have had four weeks off in ten years.
that's it.
that's all i've had off.
no i'm lying, four weeks in nine years.
why's she looking at excuses not to do it like?
er apparently they phone her up or summat and ask her if she'll go and stand in for other people and she turned round and says if i can't have this school i'm not doing any.
that's what she's been doing.
so
they've not, yeah, they've not phoned her up for god knows how long.
irene's been doing it.
cos irene says give me a ring i says no, i says that's it, i said i've already made the arrangement once and it backfired i says so i'm not doing it no more.
i says when i'm not feeling well or slept in i says i'm gonna phone police station, i'm gonna go from there, see what they say.
let them find somebody.
i says i'm not messing about no more.
do you know everybody's had flu and god knows what and i can't catch it.
i thought i had it again other day, i felt bleeding awful.
i had that at christmas which made me bad all over christmas right ?
and everybody , i says marvellous cos i can have some time off,, it's not fair.
i'm not having that, that's cheating.
if they can have some time off i can have some time off, fair's fair.
it dries right quick, it just takes that chill off 
kath you've got alarms all over the bleeding place, what are you up to?
i ain't done nowt.
you div!
look have you seen this one?
no you're on front of cover.
no she hasn't seen that one.
well i don't believe you!
oh alright then.
it must be on back.
i've seen her ugly face somewhere, i don't know where.
it might be on that one you had upstairs.
did you do your mum's car then?
yeah.
what were wrong with it?
nowt.
i was just checking it over before test.
eh?
just checking it over for test.
just testing it over for test.
are you deaf?
yeah.
no.
we try hard.
i hear you're going on holiday with your mum and dad?
am i?
get rid of 
do you know summat?
what?
i just wish you'd talk instead of just sitting there sometimes.
i'm reading.
he never talks when he reads.
what?
talk to me.
yeah.
do you know summat?
yeah.
i could slap you sometimes.
you do anyway.
talk to me!
why are you going on holiday and leaving sarah behind?
cos it's sarah's idea that.
how come it's her idea?
she wants a bit of peace and quiet.
so you've got to go?
yeah.
tt.
i know.
isn't it awful?
aye she get rid of me tomorrow cos she's going to work she says.
if she gets up .
she got up this morning.
oh aye you said you did didn't you?
but she said i hate that place, i'm not going.
and stayed in bed.
i made her a cup of coffee, she went to sleep.
hey now for the past three mornings i've got up out of bed, i've made you a cup of tea every morning and breakfast on a tray, so don't you come complaining to me.
only cos you beat me up.
pardon?
only cos you beat me up.
what!
it's me who's brought your breakfast to you.
yeah.
but if i'd've, if i'd've been up i'd've got it.
you don't bloody well have to.
it takes me half an hour to kick you out of bed.
well
answer that one.
do you want a cig?
don't give him one, he smokes too much.
you smoke too much, do you want a cig?
go on then.
i'll be kind to you.
why are you picking on me?
we're not picking on you we're just trying to get a conversation going here like, but it's very hard when you just sit there and say nothing.
no ta
oops.
always picking on me, always beating me up.
oh god.
no it's alright
i'll go if you want.
i quite enjoy it.
you're a sado-masochist you.
you know i love you, what more do you want?
breakfast in bed every day.
have you got any more car jobs to do?
not yet.
erm back brakes but 
well if it don't stop you how old's your mum and dad?
he don't know neither.
they're in their forties anyway i think.
that's what i said 
well we come to that conclusion didn't we?
me dad's think me dad's forty seven.
me mum's about forty three, forty four.
oh.
i thought your mum were older than your dad.
no.
your mum looks worn and knackered.
she always does.
ah but you know what she does though?
you tell her what she does when she works nights, next day when she comes home in morning.
well it just depends if it's market day she goes to market stays up till two or three in afternoon and then goes to sleep for six about six hours.
what time does she go to work?
half nine at night.
bloody hell that's a long day.
i know.
it's gonna er be even worse when she's going, working in thorne.
she's moving to thorne or summat.
ooh how's she gonna get there?
got a car.
can she drive?
yeah.
oh i thought she went on bus.
no.
does your dad drive?
mm, everyone up wall.
er yo your car she's using then?
no she's got her own.
oh you've got a car and a pick-up?
and a bike.
and a bike?
yeah.
well me dad's on about getting rid of car for summat else but i don't know yet.
he hasn't made his mind up.
me mum's on about getting rid of hers and getting a volvo.
i've told her to get an astra they're better.
a little'un?
yeah.
same as mine but a new car.
no.
with the same front but it's this long.
she don't want a big'un does she?
no she doesn't like driving big cars.
why's she want a volvo, it's ginormous!
oh you can get small ones.
can you?
yeah.
oh.
nowt to do with him,metro.
why?
mm?
why?
cos er they rot.
tommy's next door a little red light keeps coming on.
a little red light.
a little red light as though he's got no oil but he has.
it might be his erm tt oil filter's blocked or summat.
mm.
they're prone for that,little red lights.
oil filter 
mine is an'all.
have you got a little red light ?
yeah, it keeps flickering on and off.
on me dad's van, that's a pick-up, when she's 
yeah.
been running for about half an hour or so, you know when you come to a junction flicking on and off.
i thought you were a mechanic.
i am.
well get rid of your little red light then!
i've done it now .
it'd cost a lot of money.
what, to get rid of a little red light?
yeah.
well i would do, i'd walk back for , me.
i'd say it's not on now.
well me dad's needs an oil pump on it.
er and he won't pay out for it cos he's a bit tight.
er there's mine needs a few bits and bobs i can't do it though cos i haven't got enough money.
me mum's me mum's is alright, it's just me dad g keeps saying oh there's these noises and i'll, and i'll go in it and there's no noise.
but it's
his ears are getting old.
i know.
he's supposed to be getting a hearing aid or summat.
soon as soon as he starts talking about cars yap yap yap yap yap yap he doesn't stop.
don't worry love it's nice to hear you talk, you carry on.
you're picking on me.
i'm not picking on you.
you're picking on me again.
picking on me again.
you carry on.
no i'll be quiet now.
quiet.
you come to see me and sit there and say nowt.
what you been doing?
nowt.
help me!
oh dear .
where you been?
at home.
well you've got a right interesting life, you've got .
i know.
cars, home and done owt.
mm.
is that it?
full stop?
just about.
should go pub.
i can't afford it.
should save up and take sarah on holiday.
i've gotta get a job first.
thought you'd got one.
sort of.
sort of.
i keep asking them but they're not ready yet.
i was just telling sarah steve's written for another one 
is it?
it's a bit nearer then int it?
sugar.
sugar plants 
sugar 
oh fixing machinery?
yeah.
be alright .
doing owt else but that he wouldn't know what he's doing.
stick owt electrical in his hand and he's cracked it.
our erm michelle come round tracey's sister 
yeah?
erm with an application form 
where is it?
it's in house.
oh er.
?
yeah?
she come round this afternoon.
is that for you or for her?
it's for her.
well that's optic fibres.
who else is oh she's getting bovril one an'all.
is she?
yeah.
who's bovril?
potty avril,sh she's gone in head.
oh i thought you said bovril .
i did, we all call her bovril.
oh, where's optic fibres.
shaw lane industrial estate.
it's just behind that 
is it?
oh my god!
who'd have believed, i were at other night right?
it were getting on late and i says and er were there, oh we'll walk you home sarah said alright then says come on let's go through woods.
well anyway it gets half way through this wood i couldn't see couple of yards in front of me
when it were foggy?
they starts running off!
well i crapped mesen me, i started running back towards road and they're going sarah, sarah come back.
so i carried on walking and they start going through this bleeding wood, well they had me climbing over three fence things, all like them metal you know like them metal fences at wood?
climbing over them, i nearly cut mesen in half.
park.
oh yeah we walked past park cos he asked me if i wanted to go on swings and it led up to his back gate, well, you've never seen me put a sigh of relief on me face, i went 
is it a longer or a shorter?
it's shorter but it's scarier.
scarier?
they're on about putting a road round back of there.
around back of the gardens.
i tell you something if they put lights up down here i reckon it'd make it even more scary though you know, i don't know why.
scary.
i hate that road.
just think there could be dead bodies in 
you know what it made me think of?
what?
parts of flipping evil dead, and they're going ooh there's a house 
oh i couldn't walk through a wood on a night time.
no way.
we found a tramp in wood once.
dead?
no.
he were under these covers and erm 
well you were then .
we walked up we, we thought oh what's this?
lifted cover and there were this fella underneath.
and erm we ran off, i were, we were about sixteen or seventeen and er we kept chucking bricks at him.
he, he was going piss off, piss off.
so you know dallas?
he chucked this bit of glass, it cut him so we ran over here.
and erm i don't know who it was, he set fire to his quilt
so he come running after us.
he'd, he'd escaped from one of the prisons.
eh?
he'd escaped from one of the prisons .
well no wonder you were chucking bricks at him, i would have done an'all .
we didn't know until we got out to woods.
didn't you think he were dead?
no.
when you first found him?
i don't know.
he had this suitcase.
threw it.
it stunk.
er he'd escaped from leeds or summat.
what did he do?
i don't know.
you'd've been alright if it'd've been a mass murderer slept for years .
you never that one again.
it were right funny though.
i bet he didn't think it was.
if you'd've known then what you knew after you wouldn't've thought it were funny,you'd've not been chucking nowt you'd've been off .
bloody hell.
well we come out of woods and someone had phoned police up or something escaped from leeds.
did they get him?
he should of bloody stayed 
we're going soon cos i'm starving.
aren't you hungry?
a little bit.
a little bit, i bet you're starving really aren't you?
yeah.
he tells fibs an'all .
well a little bit means a lot.
tell me darling, what have you really had to eat today while i've been away?
while you've been away?
had erm a chopped piece of raw carrot
that's about it.
are you on a diet?
no.
wait for 
cos i always wait for him if i have a meal that's why.
i'm ever so considerate.
did i tell you steve's car conked out last week, again?
the capri?
yeah.
points.
no.
points?
yeah he had to put new points in.
last night he had to put new plugs in, they were brand new before he crashed it weren't they?
it's probably cos 
could've been.
they refused point blank and he had to take it to another garage.
did you send another bill?
yeah.
no i i phoned insurance up and told them what they'd said, cos i got maggie to phone, it were maggie that said, they told maggie that they were gonna put a second hand wheel on and everything instead of a brand new one so she told insurance about it .
they went mad, they told us that we'd got to take it to national tyres, took it there, twenty three pound fifty it cost us.
what's that for, tracking?
tracking and balancing it, none of it were done.
they had to do the lot so they give us an invoice, we took it in to insurance and they're gonna write a cheque, deduct it off that thing
mm.
and send us the cheque back.
cos they should've done it.
send you cheque back?
yeah.
that twenty three pound odd what we had to pay, they said we should pay nothing.
oh you're gonna pay 
anything to do with the crash, we don't pay nothing for it.
so everything that we've got to pay out we invoice them
mm.
they deduct it and send us it.
and that's what we've been doing.
oh.
so it weren't bad, especially the money back.
pulling their hair out once they get cheque.
you what?
they'll be pulling their hair out once 
it's their own fault.
yeah.
they should've made arrangements, we phoned up, asked them if we could take it in.
that were on tuesday we phoned up.
what's the matter ?
you going on holiday?
no.
i wish i were.
will you take me then will you?
eh what?
took you to scotland didn't i?
yeah.
that were last year, we're in nineteen ninety two now.
where you going?
greece?
don't know yet.
we were on about going weren't we?
yeah.
go camping.
haven't got a tent.
there's a trailer tent in garden.
camping with you!
you've gotta be joking.
there's a bed each.
you can either have a double bed or you can have a double bed each.
we'll have a double bed each.
yeah.
tell me then.
what?
i said shall we tell you, i never said we were gonna tell you.
oh 
no leave him in suspense.
no.
shall we?
no.
sod him.
do you wanna have a listen then?
mm.
go on then.
here listen to this dave
apple pie?
yeah.
yeah, it figures.
i says bollocks john.
pie.
writing letters upsetting today.
what, that new one?
yeah.
no?
no.
not yet, washing first.
well go like that then.
ah i just wondered.
they want washing first.
i can see that, they're dirty.
oh, do you wear them or summat?
yeah.
ah went in to where john were working cos i wanted to borrow a spanner, he said i could just murder a cig and his, his mate said ah i could as well.
buy your own bastard.
he said i could murder a roll up i said could you?
i said buy them.
we don't buy them for him.
john looked at me i says i says i've got enough bloody debt without keeping pair of you twats in cigs.
john just laughed.
he says you meant it didn't you?
i says yes i did, i am not supplying cigs to him.
he says why?
i said i don't get them bloody back 
if he can't afford to smoke he should not smoke.
if he can afford to smoke he should buy them himself.
shouldn't he?
mm.
see this time, weren't i clever?
yes.
i thought no i thought i'll reason i've got a big box i thought two weeks, cracked it.
ah .
let me just go and get me erm
bleeding thieving little twat.
he knows it's me s snap for work and if there's none left i go with bloody out.
well 
did you give him his book?
yeah.
he's got it?
yeah.
alright how much was it?
one pound twenty one pound 
i were supposed to tape twenty.
i want eighty pence off him.
no you want it off me, that's the whole idea of it.
no.
yes!
er no.
that's the whole idea 
these for me.
these were one pound five
whoo expensive 
five, six 
i want er eighty pence.
how much were ?
thirty i think.
that big'un?
oh i don't know sixty, seventy, i don't know.
i want one pound twenty off him.
they're cheap 
i don't care it's me snap, that's what annoys me.
there's all that.
i know.
it might boil
oh it's boiled.
sorry i'm miles away.
got dave.
eh?
got dave.
oh what's he say?
no he didn't know cos sarah says not to tell him till we've done it.
why, has he been down?
he come to pick sarah up.
has she been down?
she didn't go to work today.
the idle sod.
oh i'll tell you later why she's not been sort of i'll tell you in a bit.
yeah er i told her all about it so she did some for me right?
and she says to get dave when he comes in, i says yeah but i'm supposed to tell people about it.
she says no don't tell him she says you told me, just do it she says and then when we stop it you can tell him.
well he were killing his sides a laughing.
we were talking about cars and holidays and his mum and dad, ta, and i ke i says to sarah shall i tell him?
give me that plate.
erm i'll have these.
yeah.
well i thought you'd've ate them before now.
i thought i'd've got them for me bleeding snap.
won't fit!
what do you mean don't fit?
what's up with plastic bag like?
oh i never think of putting them in that.
anyway it takes more.
eh?
more stuff to put in.
oh!
what, what sorry?
dirty sod.
what about cheese and tomato?
alright.
oh that.
cutting knife did you tell him about car?
about conking out?
mini.
oh no.
why not?
cos we were messing about.
what he say when he er heard himself?
he were killing his sides a laughing.
cos i, i says to sarah go on we'll have a listen to it and we stopped it anyway i says i'll t i'll take it off if you want, he says no leave it.
he says you crafty pair of sods he says, sarah knew all about that didn't she?
i says yeah i says she told me to do it, i says and then let you listen to it.
he says nah leave it, he says any case he says this thing you get he says now you've got my voice he says do i get some of it ?
i says no you don't.
no i get t tape recorder.
you and that tape recorder!
i get the walkman, i get the walkman, i do.
you can't have it.
why not?
cos it don't belong to us.
no but i'll, if i say it on every tape she might get the hint.
it don't belong to her.
dunnit?
no does it heck.
it belongs to that company, that
alright, when company hear it i might get the bleeding tape
they're not frigging hard up.
all you want that tape for is cos it's got a microphone innit?
yours ain't got a microphone.
mine int as good.
i thought yours were same make.
ah that's got a radio on 
it's got a radio on, yeah.
yeah.
i'll buy you one.
it depends where i can spend voucher, i'll buy you one with voucher, how's that?
so i'm not having that one then?
no it's not yours, it's got to go back on friday.
how many have you done?
this is five.
out of what, ten?
twenty.
chuffing hell fire.
well if they say no it's no that's it, there's not a lot you can do about it.
oh well i know that.
once they say no that's it.
there's only you know people that come like and that that i have never said no to.
they were on once.
apart from that are you hungry?
bloody hell.
no i'm just doing this jam sarnie to er make things happy.
alright?
you daft sod , course i'm bleeding hungry.
well your tea's nearly ready, that's why i asked you.
what, what mood you in?
me?
alright.
been shop and i treat you to summat.
ooh i just thought of summat you
what?
what have i done now?
done four hundred and sixty nine on that tank of petrol.
that's short.
what?
it was five hundred and odd last time.
bloody hell.
it were.
no it weren't.
it were.
where's that envelope?
it says five hundred and twenty summat on it.
yeah.
it weren't thirty odd quid don't go in.
it does when i chuffing empty it and fill it up.
i've got your petrol money for tomorrow anyhow.
cos you've got enough for today, tomorrow haven't you?
i've got enough for tomorrow to get me there, get me home
yeah
but
then straight to garage.
it's thursday tomorrow.
i don't finish early do i?
oh.
oh i'll have to give you a fiver.
stick a fiver in.
i'll give you your pocket money and then you stick a fiver in and i'll give it you back.
i said then i'll give you it back.
yeah.
mm?
and then we'll fiddle instead.
where you going?
put these in ro i'm coming back, don't worry.
wouldn't pissing leave you.
what you doing?
i see maggie's been.
why?
went out to empty my bloody ashtray.
urgh.
that's mine.
i've been doing that.
well why ain't you emptied the chuff?
mm no i couldn't be bothered.
i usually empty them but i've been busy.
thank you for posting me letter.
you're welcome.
i'll do it again tomorrow for you.
yeah!
i've got a letter to do and i keep forgetting to do it.
what's that?
it's just to that medical thing to say i don't want to.
it's not what i thought.
it's not what i thought at all.
no it's a
it's not 
i thought it were one of them, you know when you go in hospital and you're off work and that?
mm yeah.
i thought it were one of them, watch what you're doing, i thought it were one of them but it's not.
it's not.
snot snot.
no.
no it's not 
oh aye so
dropping it.
yeah.
i've had a go, i've had a new mate today.
ooh you've got one for yourself?
yeah, foreman.
oh.
ask him you got owt to do?
yeah i've got plenty
do you want all this?
yeah get it whacked on.
see sarah?
but it's something wrong somewhere margaret.
somewhere,som something wrong somewhere so we'll have him out on monday.
but he said the balance correct and i can't get it correct with what you've got in your book.
what?
and what do you say it is?
i make it the 
cos i've got not as much as it
no
er
it's more.
it's forty one more in your book and loans, than she does according to that book.
well how much does your say?
eh?
how much is yours then?
i mean all i can do is when dave gives me money write it in here that's all i 
yes.
can do.
that's all she does.
and i check it after her.
and i write in here.
yeah, but how much, how much did you have there altogether?
according to that about hundred and fifty quid in all.
what?
according to what?
in that.
no.
hundred and forty three.
how else ?
see the this th the there's got to be summat wrong.
but if you, if you add all them up, and then add up all what there is in there there's summat wrong.
mm.
what, what balance is it in, on that bit of paper dave?
got last week's payment out of here?
thirty six ninety eight i've got.
oh!
who's this?
mm mm.
thirty eight thirty six 
tracey?
thirty six ninety eight on dock.
and linda.
mm.
forget linda.
yeah but ow!
no one paid me last week.
they get 
tracey and, and linda.
no.
one of them didn't.
no, one of them paid you didn't 
no.
she?
oh!
just linda?
had the book.
just linda?
right.
tracey!
ju jus jus jus ju i'll tell yo 
tracey 
i'll tell you what 
look!
dave!
dave!
yeah but what you got on dock for tracey?
thirty five ninety eight.
well there's thirty six ninety eight on this.
yeah.
exactly!
right!
right!
what you got, what you got on er 
look shut up!
just let me explain!
what you got on er
ha!
look!
loans?
look!
just pu just tell me what you've got 
well 
on loans!
dave i'm just trying to tell you!
right!
you know the two pound what
i know that.
what you got on 
what er 
what you got on loans for her?
what linda paid last week.
what you got for her?
you know the two pound what linda 
yeah.
paid me last week, that went onto tracey's.
no it didn't.
it did!
because i've just had a look here.
it shouldn't have.
it shouldn't have.
yeah!
but i mean
what you got on loan 
do i ever know who's whose in these this house here?
yeah!
course you do!
well you marked it in linda's book!
didn't mark it.
you marked it in in linda's book.
i know!
but, on here i've marked it on tracey's 
what you got for tracey on loans?
so you got a two pound transfer?
and what you got on tracey on loans?
off tracey's onto linda's?
eh?
what you got for tracey on loans?
hundred and eight pounds eighty five.
then that's wrong here.
how much is that, hundred and seven?
hundred and nine.
yeah!
yeah!
this is what i'm just saying dave!
right.
but if i added 
the two pound 
if i add these up,th th there's, they're, they're, they're different again.
that is right, that's docks.
yeah.
that's right.
but when yo when, when you come onto these
see!
oh that's graham's.
don't know how to do we?
don't let him tell him does he?
are you up and paid 
yeah.
for these?
exactly!
the two pound what was given so i'll ask them to transfer that onto your whose ever book next week 
i mean, if i add all them up right?
what?
i add all them up.
yeah.
whose is this one?
tracey's.
right.
add that up.
then add the two together it didn't tally with that.
no.
but can i ask you something?
can i take linda's book in to have the total?
get your book.
see i've there's two pounds
i've cleared that.
cos i never o know who's who in here!
so how much is it altogether?
well all it is, all it matters with me 
hundred and forty quid according to that innit?
all it is with me
yeah.
i mean, he's paid me two pound, right, last week
but that was 
cos that were 
well, didn't it?
didn't you?
you 
well i 
paid me two pounds.
and one o 
yeah.
i paid you.
well i've put it onto tracey's.
okay.
it should be just under a hundred pound.
er, there were two pound payment put through
wanna get that 
the, the 
video?
er and all it wants is doing is transferring off.
what are you looking for tracey?
no.
it's over there.
all they'll do is put a local transfer erm, thing in.
so it sho still should only be the two pound out.
i put it in the back of the red thing.
but what i should actual fact be, one should be owing two pound more than what it says and the other one should be owing two pound less.
yeah but sue got it sue got all the tried er everything i could to, to get it to to tally.
linda.
yeah.
and then 
hundred and one i think.
hundred and eleven.
eh?
don't know what it should be.
er
hundred and forty six on this.
what?
on whose?
tracey's.
according to this lot.
i haven't checked, no you've just said linda before.
no,bu er on tracey's together, is hundred and forty six, forty three 
oh no!
on this.
how much?
hundred and forty six eighty three.
hundred and forty four eighty three.
but then i put two pounds, which should have been off linda's.
cos you didn't pay me owt off
you can have that.
i should have real ah?
you can have that.
i should have realized when i'd taken tracey's book in.
right.
i'd put it just down here, i marked it down here when i were here last last week.
i marked it as tracey's but i were taking tracey's book in weren't i?
so i 
so i 
picked tracey's book up.
get a letter from the girl there then.
mm.
yeah i know.
what about?
to say i haven't paid, but i have!
well no you'll not get, cos i'll take this in and say, look, can you just transfer two pound off linda's onto this.
i mean, all it, all it means 
off of tracey's onto there.
yeah.
all it means to me is one owes two pound more than other one.
no, no it 
but if 
it'd be, it'd be understandable if we were identical twins but we're not!
but we're not!
yeah but i mean i don't 
i just you're just names to me, do you know what i, i mean, i still don't know who, which one you are, now even though you said.
who are you?
linda !
eh?
she's linda.
yeah, i know.
but i mean
that's tracey, this is linda.
i dunno, i always think that one is linda and that one's 
she's e she's ivy's daughter.
i know.
yes!
and that one's ivy's daughter!
i know!
but i if you put yourself in my position and all you do is call 
god forbid it if ever i put myself in your position!
no but 
you know what i mean !
god almighty!
yes.
have you got tracey's middle name on there?
on their books?
tracey anne?
yeah.
then you can't get really stuck can you?
yeah, but i still don't know who tracey anne is there!
that one's 
you don't 
linda now.
yeah.
yeah.
mine's just plain linda.
i'll try and remember.
ah?
hers is just plain linda.
when we get some money we'll get name tags!
yeah.
linda, tracey's got a middle name.
and linda ain't.
and i'm blonder
yeah but
she's blacker.
but to me.
yeah.
dark hair.
tracey hasn't 
well i just know that tracey and linda and i don't know who's tracey and linda.
you know who brian and david is?
yeah, because they're i dunno.
brian !
no, i know, i don't mean owt, owt wrong but i just can't remember these two names, i don't know why, there's something i've never been able to, cos i've always said to you ain't i?
margaret don't punish yourself!
even these two get mixed up with us.
i know.
yeah.
yeah.
but it's very, very 
i ain't sometimes i check and ask tracey for linda.
i don't know why it is but probably because they're always together.
i think this is what it is.
and, i mean, even when i say make a cup of tea
who are you now?
i'll even ask them!
don't i?
it's because a there's summat.
i don't know why!
but i'll get yo that two quid transferred.
would you get mixed up with her?
oh chuff me!
that's, i bet that's some sports thing.
it's a load of shite that paper!
to be perfectly honest!
yeah, i'll get you your two pounds knocked off o er
from linda.
tracey's onto linda.
listening linda?
yeah i'll cha 
yeah i, no i know, i know where i got it.
and i'll just put a note in.
but i mean, that were a simple mista i mean you made a payment of two quid didn't you?
yeah that saves you making a payment don't it?
no, well i mean, it weren't as though i hadn't put a payment in it were just that it probably was this taking tracey's book and i marked it onto tracey's, er, tracey's book.
here he goes look!
and 
how do you know?
eh?
but that will be in together or not?
do you think you can get me something didn't he?
must be in there.
i mean i have put a payment in,i it's not as though i didn't, i mean that was quite easy mistake to make, to me.
but erm i mean, i don't know about other.
cos normally they both pay anyway don't you?
i think i might have to er change the wallpaper.
oh!
don't you dave?
who'll come out?
mike.
ah?
when did you pay in?
last wednesday.
last wednesday?
no, he's 
eh?
been on holiday this week.
no!
last week 
week la 
week past.
week last wednesday.
he said to tracey, are you not paying?
were they?
i said, what have you come for?
he said is tracey in?
i said, yeah.
what do you want her for?
he said can i have a word with her?
don't worry about me!
i said no.
mother!
dad.
don't worry about me!
no.
and he said, is tracey in the kitchen?
yeah but he's probably done tha knows who's anyway !
i mean, i doubt if he'll know who's brian and who's dave to be perfectly honest.
well, there you are then.
eh?
off me.
that's why they're always going up to him.
mind you, he and uncle brian they are identical twins people can find out who they are but, well they can't find out who we are can they?
don't think it matters at work.
oh your tea's here.
yeah.
you can make make it right next time with tracey's and linda's anyway, if they hadn't done it in office because i can put two pound what tracey paid onto linda's anyway, it'll still balance it out won't it?
do you know 
no.
what i mean?
no!
it will, yeah!
no cos ta linda'll be a way behind then.
no.
er say, i mean they normally give me three pounds don't they?
it's, it's, it's, it's th th the mix up has come on, in that book it's 
yeah.
not on their cards.
oh no, it's not on the cards.
but
i'll pay as the erm
well i'll tell you summat
no that that were my mistake that.
i'm not having owt to do with this!
no that were my mistake, which er, is a genuine mistake, i mean sh you paid me two quid, as i say, i don't know who's whose now
and then you 
that was linda now.
tracey didn't pay that did she?
no.
tracey didn't pay.
but i took li tracey's book in and probably i've seen the tracey and marked it down there you see on tracey's instead of linda's, which, i mean that's a genuine mistake int it?
well, who put that 
well he doesn't 
on card?
ha?
parcels haven't been marked.
what's that?
er, woman that he were to go to mr .
a woman?
mm.
where?
him who er were getting engaged to?
called david, i think they call him.
mm.
or is that guy from
he lived down station road.
ah!
station road, course he lived 
yeah.
down station road.
he used to baby-sit for her.
oh!
we heard today they were supposed to have been getting engaged to er a seventy year old woman!
who?
ernie?
mm.
no, gwen.
don't live round that though.
no, she 
no she li lives at er
doncaster way.
she don't live at doncaster!
she's supposed to live down station road in hatfield.
that one he's supposed to be engaged lives her sister.
mm.
no, that we that were one of them.
that's it!
that were one of them.
no, the other one who's, who's supposed to have a
that's her!
a son called david.
that one what's got the car?
he used to go babysitting for her.
do you want a nut, anybody?
nut's, no.
ernie's just bought 
let's have a nut then.
ernie bought her a car.
she hadn't got one 
he's supposed to have been a with provincial.
who?
ernie.
well they're an insurance company aren't they?
and he's supposed to have got four thousand pound from them.
two lots of two thousand pound.
and the solicitor wants to know where it is.
he wants every single penny accounted for before he starts doing anything.
but she's that we 
he had er, fourteen and a half thousand pound once in a building society four year ago there's nine hundred pound left in his bu er, building society account!
they want to know where that is.
she,
the solicitor, nobody else, just the solicitor.
er he's got some insurance policies one's for eleven hundred pound right?
and they're gonna pay that.
and that's gotta go straight direct to the solicitor.
also, he's supposed to have had an insurance policies but general accident said it's only for a year and he took it out in seventy seven to nineteen seventy eight.
but he's still got the policy life insurance on it.
he was insured with the co-op.
he was insured with the co-op.
oh that were a that'll be bound to come.
so that's
i don't know.
yeah, he won't pay mrs insurance money out yet will he?
no, he, he, he, he's gotta pay it to the solicitor.
it all gotta go to them?
it's all got to go to solicitor.
and that fourteen thousand five hundred pound every single penny's got to be accounted for.
well who's gonna know about that then?
the bank.
building society he put it in.
the solicitors who gave him the court order for them to release all the details on that.
and even that car he bought the 
who?
the solicitor can take it off him 
the solicitor wants to know why
and he'd bought a car had he?
yeah.
for a boy.
bought a car for a boy.
who's, the one who's supposed to have been getting engaged to son, and they call him david.
no!
he weren't engaged to her, she's a married woman.
he used to go babysitting for her.
he used to go babysitting, he's bought her a ring and everything.
yeah!
but she's got a husband.
that one's he's supposed to be getting married to live at wellingdon 
and she's seventy year old er and
yeah!
she's actually mrs 's sister.
i don't know.
it's all mixed up and jumbled.
i dunno.
i'm not bothered.
fog's coming in.
he lives at bath though.
i don't know.
honestly i don't know, i mean
who's he reckoned to be?
roxy music.
and he works at the ?
oh stop analyzing!
all i know is cyril's got his bird that's all i know!
ha!
well they had a they've had a bill for er bird seed
where from?
don't know.
from some from somewhere three days after he died!
well i don't know where it were from because ernie used to get his seed from our shop.
in staythorpe.
yeah.
and it weren't brian that sent it.
well he's got it, he's, he's got his, he's got erm a bill and the solicitor has told him that under no circumstances must i pay it.
don't pay it!
under no circumstances must i pay it!
yeah i know!
well i don't think you're daft enough!
they must be nice them nuts.
dad!
he's eating them!
it's alright, it's still going.
are you switched it off?
yeah.
dark.
yeah.
what?
dark.
it's for linda.
i'll let you read it in a minute.
if i can find it.
now stop it!
dad!
no you don't!
you'll have to put it down soon madam!
is the heating on?
i don't think i i don't think i could wear a dress like that!
probably cos it's all the peanuts you had!
ah!
don't be cruel!
what's this for?
market research.
then you get .
i'm recording you on that tape machine i think.
it's for erm tt everyday conversation.
everyday's conversation.
what, me and your dad shouting at each other!
yeah.
eh!
i might well have got that onto another tape and then every time she says something you just say look what you're doing !
that'll do!
no more now.
no more!
come off it dave!
come off it!
well that's not really working.
what?
margaret's not in the .
i wonder if terence'll come today, do that outside wall.
yeah.
they've got to fill it up a bit.
get your feet off your ask her for it then!
ask her!
ask her!
hang on!
do you know how much these are a bag?
no.
really foggy!
dunno.
he's not bothered as long as eats them!
it int half coming in!
do you know how much?
sixty five pence!
six ?
so margaret we all enjoyed eating them!
about another hour and you'll not be able to see corky's fence.
i'll be glad when our brighton's off.
here!
be entrusted to get him on time.
er do you want some advice?
what?
get done as quick as you can.
i've only got two more to do.
yeah.
it's coming in look.
christ!
every time margaret then moves in well, here goes !
oh aye.
yeah, you're done.
he wants to get in there.
what he nor what he normally does is he, he grabs it off of you, and go run away with it.
and you,cos there ain't one in 
yeah.
there.
cos he want more and more and more.
i'm just but he needs it.
that's enough.
every week.
every, he wouldn't eat them.
he would!
he likes them.
they're quite er moreish .
don't give him no more margaret.
he like nuts and raisins as well don't you timmy?
he, no he won't be.
plenty of salt in, in them.
yeah but don't give him no more.
why?
he's had enough now.
come on!
eh!
eh!
timmy!
and he'll be straight in, they'll be blowing him, and blowing him up!
aye.
that's enough now.
that's enough!
tha eh!
eh!
come here!
it's margaret, having trouble with it!
that's enough now!
you know, come on!
he ate, he ate salty nuts as well didn't he?
now you know .
that's enough now!
ah!
ah!
i wouldn't,no not you.
no!
erm, timmy!
no!
eh, this,
don't growl at me!
ask her!
you're not having no more!
tim!
come on then!
ask her!
nah!
aargh!
aargh!
aargh!
ow!
that's a good,
he's a hungry little dog margaret ain't he?
mm.
i said no 
no!
more!
he said 
bull!
i said no more to you!
ask her then!
ask her for what?
he went, he'd been a, he'd been .
he's asking you?
he's asking you now!
he asking you!
he asks.
er, there's marion going to work on bus gets to outside my dad's club crash!
back of bus.
i jumped out my skin nearly!
er, summat had ran into back of bus, i don't know what it'd done to, whatever behind us but it didn't hurt bus.
no, it's got a great big steel girder at the back!
eh!
out!
you!
!
we've nearly had margaret's nuts.
i bought them just for the bag though.
have they got salt on?
no.
they're just brazil nuts.
that's it now!
no more!
and you don't have any choice.
well what had hit bus?
don't know.
i didn't get out to see.
did driver get out?
mm.
you could have just turned round and had a look.
you were fit to weren't you?
somebody had bumped into craig's car.
where, in scotland?
no!
coming out of his road end.
and he said, come out of his driveway, turning into rosebury and somebody forgot to stop!
coming out of rosebury straight into his side of car!
serve him right!
the insurance, insurance will pay for that won't they?
i heard this one.
just give him a dead eye.
hey!
hey!
oh 
that's enough!
tim!
?
yeah.
you!
get and get leathers!
i know he went mad up town.
go and get 
you get leathers!
leave him!
come here.
go and off margaret, go on.
they say they don't like this, used to like nuts.
you're not too fussy are you?
they let him come and he won't get any biscuits.
all gone now.
all gone now.
all gone now tim.
all gone now.
she ain't got any more now.
you've damn well eaten all my nuts!
he wants your .
do you?
you can't have a cigarette.
.
pardon me!
i burped.
are you not at work yet?
monday.
monday.
monday.
but 
well that's bad innit?
he's had tonsillitis!
oh!
he were poorly when i seen him.
i know.
how am i supposed to stay in?
look at it!
eh?
oh aye!
you're supposed to stay in if you go if you suffer with asthma or
i know.
owt like that.
ooh it is coming in now!
can't see them trees up there now look.
oh no!
we've had enough people !
ah?
we've already had one of those.
we've already one ain't we dave?
it were useless!
you got some ?
i know i've got some tunes that are good.
sweeties timmy!
here.
our neil has them.
eh?
our neil.
i like pot noodle, but i don't like that sa rubbish!
eh?
i like pot noodles, but i don't like that rubbish!
what, sweet and sour?
chicken.
it's sweet and sour.
i hate chicken!
she always looks, she doesn't use this erm 
no!
no, give me one of them.
cos he'll be jumping all over it!
rolling all over it.
i shall have a tune and get on my way!
i shall play my tune!
oh don't, we don't want the weather .
you won't,and all.
no!
if my number's up, my number's up!
no.
margaret when you go and,last week when you out of here.
it were .
yeah but it were down now monday.
oh!
it was around here!
hampton road.
ooh er!
i don't know.
there were a couple of ambulan ah
ambulance and er, paramedics.
yeah.
somebody said a kid got knocked down.
it weren't on broadway itself.
it turned down one of side streets.
and, i nearly got up to beachfield cos carole said ooh it looks as though it's going down hampton!
and i never ca i couldn't catch it up.
god!
it went full belt didn't it dave?
yeah.
ah?
down there.
well apparently there's an old man down there
who got asthma.
that's got asthma, and he often goes into or dia he's a ba diabetic or summat and goes into comas.
she told me his name, i don't know.
and you know erm hilary ?
you know george , that used to do fridges?
i dunno.
there were gill that, gillian, hilary, and lynn three lasses with long hair at school?
come off grange.
gi er gillian's got right blonde hair.
but they all had plaits right long hair, all of them.
i know trevor used to see them.
no.
wi willie , that's all i know.
no they we who got into trouble ?
yeah.
no.
were they cousins or summat?
no.
well er she, she works at midland bank in ta in thorne.
she's about thirty eight maybe.
oh!
i've seen her.
if i remember rightly
call her hilary, she's darker now.
she lives on menson drive.
her husband's just collapsed and died!
forty one!
oh he looks nice don't he?
who?
purple rain.
ya?
do you not know who i mean?
no.
i think i know cos i se i think there is a, a, a, erm er
eh!
that bungalow is erm, empty where your mam, next door to your where mama used to live.
it is empty.
they're knocking down .
an old man and woman lived there didn't they?
yeah.
who had a garage built onto the side.
mm.
and er, the last time i saw them they had a morris minor a gol morri er a blue morris 
a blue one.
minor car.
cos he er,
does mr still live there down there?
do you know who i mean?
no.
dan ?
don't know.
don't know who you mean.
where your mum lived he just lived down the corner.
i didn't know any of them.
i didn't even know them who, who lived next door to her at the side of .
all i knew is my mother talked about her that's all, and she, she, my mother knew her but, i didn't.
i didn't,
who the hell's that?
prince.
prince.
he looks nice though don't he margaret?
i don't know.
not as good as michael jackson is he?
you reckon he's any good?
he's rubbish!
oh a brilliant dancer!
he isn't!
oh!
ooh he is!
he's just , you love doing it!
on er
oh!
barrymore 
barrymore.
did you see that young lad?
yeah.
i thought he were brilliant that little lad!
before michael jackson did.
more practical him living 
well he won't go short of a of his erm, tt thingie will he?
no.
oh yeah!
no i don't like him.
i do.
he's tries to look like michael jackson don't he?
well he di he did a video a and it's a wonder it weren't banned!
who?
prince.
oh the thing wi 
with his trousers ?
did he?
oh yeah!
i've seen one oh it might have been michael jackson 
michael jackson.
having it off with 
sheena easton?
nah!
having it off with michael's, er michael's .
oh dear!
why, didn't you see it?
right i'm going.
are you?
yes.
yes.
right.
byes ee bye!
see you!
yeah.
come on, what's wrong with it?
well it's a good letter but your spelling mistake.
ha!
what you should do is erm
the spelling mistakes only occurred when i was shouted.
yeah.
don't worry!
i'll put it right.
well do it at work then if you make a mistake just ru ru rub it out.
we're not, we'll not be allowed to.
how do you know?
mhm.
well do it when erm pam's not there.
that's an idea!
do it on wednesday.
mm.
no, thursday.
at work.
friday.
why friday?
no i can't do it friday cos i wanna send it off friday.
i'm hoping to get a reply 
mind you , we won't be going up into, up into to thing until later.
will we?
yes, but i want to send it from town.
you know, er, we finish work go into the post office and get the reply stamp from there and stamp it and post it
mm mm.
and it goes from town then.
quicker!
mhm.
cos it'll go into the sorting office and straight
yeah.
but then again, i suppose i could do it without the though.
yeah, well you could but mind you, you'll have to do it anyway.
mind you, you could leave it till monday, next monday and post it.
no i want to get it off as soon as i can.
don't forget it's in april.
and then not long 
it's not long till april, then we've gotta gotta get visas and everything.
work permits.
mm mm.
and erm green card.
green card.
the backing.
the backing.
mhm.
the packing.
the packing, the backing !
the persuading!
the wardrobe.
we gotta 
wardrobe.
have new wardrobes.
we'll want a complete new wardrobe.
by the time we get there it should should be warmed up in april.
oh i hope so.
it's freezing over here!
mm mm.
so we
got to get the connection.
make er, we'll have to make a list out.
and then we've gotta get phone numbers.
the 
yeah.
international dialling codes.
but first you've got to get permission.
permission?
permission.
oh!
so we'll have to write to erm we'll have to write to the erm
yeah, i know where you can write to, yeah.
yeah.
gotta get permission from there and then passports.
that's the important part !
passports, visas and and all this lot.
yeah.
and erm i've got to have my hair done.
your face done!
with a bit of plastic surgery here and there this you know!
plastic surgery.
don't need plastic surgery.
i'm a perfectly beautiful plastic surgery is not needed.
but in your case it's well needed.
yeah !
oh!
tt.
oh!
but first, we've got to finish work.
mhm.
it really gave, gives erm jabber jaws something to talk about wouldn't it?
jaws three!
well it could give her something to talk about but she'll be more worried office experience and how old she is, and all this lot!
ah!
there's something very, very important that you forgot to say.
what?
and you got your hair done, and you got wardrobe and then you got all this lot and that there's one other thing.
what?
you've got to get one very special on your side .
i said that!
make arrangements, and get people on your side.
well you said that.
oh yeah!
and i thought of something else as well.
and besides, if it's all rigged like they say you do it'll already be arranged for us.
music!
we need the music.
ah!
no wait.
well sort that out, later.
mm.
the jewellery.
i want jewellery!
i would think of erm having er pearl necklace.
so that i can take it off and if she gets in my way you can smack her with it!
oh no!
diamonds.
a thick diamond will do that better.
cos you see it cuts.
mm mm.
and she needs her face rearranging.
she needs everything rearranging.
well mind you, what you could really do is just erm, sort of erm have a hammer necklace.
hammer?
hammer necklace.
say it's, new fashion jewellery and every time she gets out of hand just bash her one!
mm mm!
that's an idea !
yeah, well i'm brainy.
i come up with all these ideas!
there's something else we have to arrange.
what?
where to stay.
well
if you're thinking what i'm thinking you better think again!
alright, i'll think again.
we'll have to stay in an hotel.
of course you could stay in an hotel!
oh!
now which one can we stay in?
so many to choose from!
yeah but it's , is, you don't know where you're going first.
hilton.
er yeah bu hilton, yeah!
but where is the hilton?
you know, i'm not sort of er 
and we've never to so we don't know.
no.
ah!
it's hollywood.
it would be expensive over there, hollywood!
well i don't really want to go to hollywood.
yo well you'll have to if that's, if you're touring.
yeah.
maybe.
and don't forget
mind you, there's people you'd miss over here.
yeah.
family.
friends.
what friends?
tell you there's one person i wouldn't miss.
who's that then?
jane.
i don't think jane'd miss jane !
i don't think jane can see jane.
so we're really going to do it then?
we're really going to take 
if 
the plunge?
probably, yeah.
if we get accepted.
yeah.
be exciting!
very!
and think of all the publicity.
mm mm!
getting recognised in the street!
er probably.
the big welcome home we'd get if we came over here.
especially if we came to sheffield.
if we were there.
yeah!
home, a sort of home ground as it were.
mm mm.
we'd be bryan adams.
the attendants!
nobody could be bryan adams!
but bryan adams could.
well oh yeah!
mm.
so but there's one thing ambition and it's to smash that silly cow in the face!
b i c t i will personally do 
well le ge well why don't we just use both fists?
we could sort her out together.
but you're forgetting one thing.
double 
you're forgetting one thing.
what?
she wants what i wanted.
please!
don't ever tell anybody you fancy like i was saying, don't ever say you liked him!
if you tell anybody 
well you did once.
if you tell anybody i will deny you are my sister!
i will deny everything!
deny everything.
but it's true, i did like him.
but honestly don't know what you see in him.
dunno what anybody can see in him!
he is awful!
i noticed that when the camera 
got onto him !
you know that he is, you know what they say cameras pick up things.
i've been on camera.
i'm going to be on camera.
i've been on camera and it is nerve-wracking!
even if it was in front of the school it was nerve-wracking.
cos i made
there's one thing i don't like and that's having my photo taken.
and it will be hard when we have to photos
photo sessions!
and just think of all those cra cameras!
i know.
i always crack the mirrors i look in!
and all them people saying ah!
she's beautiful!
but she's not.
well i mean but 
in her own way !
well put it this way
go on then.
a dog's better looking than she is so you're in with a chance!
well she's just called sherry.
and don't forget, our dog used to be called sherry!
that's another thing i'm gonna get her on!
mm.
oh!
we had a dog once called sherry!
mm.
yeah, as long as i look like her.
ah don't!
but she was better looking than you!
ah don't!
i like sherry!
i have just insulted of the dog world.
yes you have.
i apologize.
thank you very much.
why are you accepted ?
don't forget, our brothers are dogs!
and er
we've got a little dog.
a little pooch.
little pooch!
he's so cute!
ah!
sleepy.
so yeah .
so you got 
i think, i think maybe i would refuse to go, if i go in front of a t v camera.
especially if we were doing an interview.
ah!
and don't forget the talk shows we'd be on!
ah no!
do you think we could do you think we could forget about this plan of ours for stardom?
i know i'd, i know i would freeze.
i'm not doing it for stardom.
we could make movies!
no thank you.
you're right though that's when i would freeze.
starring role with tom short cruise.
bloody hell!
no way!
he's too horrible.
mind you co could be even worser 
what could be even worse?
acting with tom cruise.
what could be even worse than that?
acting with dolf lundgren!
oh!
gees!
sylvester stallone?
you're getting worser!
arnold schwarzanegger?
ooh!
no.
?
or, macauley calkin?
now i wouldn't mind that.
macauley calkin.
he'd teach you a few tricks!
yeah.
i could boss him around because he's only young!
you could boss him around.
yes.
but i don't think i'm big.
mm mm.
look in the mirror?
oh very funny!
well if you think that then you go on your own!
wherever you want!
oh no!
don't want to do it on my own.
well just leave me and stop ma teasing me then!
i'll stop teasing you.
promise?
promise.
really, really promise?
really, really promise.
oh!
alright then.
cor!
i sound like the cheese advert don't i?
oh!
alright then!
there's one difference in the you won't be kissing erm
veroni veronica dribblethwaite!
or her!
do you know, you know when we're talking about moving to america and
mm.
be in films, well i'm very nervous , we haven't, we haven't even been accepted yet.
america, yes.
canada .
i wanna try white water rapids.
ah!
you don't?
i do!
i don't know why.
it looks interesting.
it may sound interesting but it's very dangerous.
don't forget there's all those rocks and the water is cold.
alright then, i'll send sherry down there.
i'd rather throw her off the empire state building!
one better take her parachute jumping and forgo forget to give her the parachute.
that's even better.
mind you you don't want the ground splattered with horrible things like that though.
no.
so that sleep on it.
yeah.
well i'm gonna think about what i'm gonna put in that letter.
mm.
i think it could do with changing.
mind you my new wardrobe would be bright colours.
so would mine.
and not dull colours.
no, not dull.
not brown horrible shirts!
i think i might change my hair colour as well every week!
oh no!
not dyed, wigs.
you know, one week go out with red the next week go out with pink, pink, bright pink or even blonde.
don't you dare!
no i won't.
you can go out with any other colour hairstyle, any other colour hair you want, but don't you dare go out with blonde!
no.
i won't go out with blonde.
cos everybody'd be thinking you were me.
mind you, does it matter?
everybody says we're the same anyway!
yeah.
well i'll erm think about it.
i'll tell you what after we've sorted her out we'll sort it out.
him!
who thinks he's erm
it!
the right word for him!
oh i hate that name anyway.
it'd be a daft name to live with anyway for the rest of your life!
mm.
now, who'd want to be called ellen?
ellen?
yeah.
sounds like lemon!
shortened!
but
urgh!
no way!
well there's one really name i'd like to be called and no, it's not, it doesn't begin with a.
i wasn't gonna say
a.
a a er i won't say it .
mm.
better not do!
i won't say it.
right.
i know i would get a bit excited if if i was on t v.
lyndsey.
lyndsey.
especially lyndsey.
james and james.
d'ya know for kids, they're the only kids that can show, that can make me go bright red!
yeah.
i know what lyndsey had wanted to do.
autograph of a favourite record.
i wouldn't be meeting the wrestlers though.
you might be meeting er, the wrestlers but i won't.
why, what will you be doing?
oh i'll think of something!
something cheery and nice.
well if you're on the same bill as him, well could always just ask him.
or even take her over.
no, ask her over.
no.
oh no because she'd tell everybody you were used to be in with prat face, prat face !
i don't think i can do that.
do that sheet properly at work.
what sheet?
that what she gave us to do.
oh you mean on the erm
background .
background .
we are making
yes.
that one.
i'm dreading this term when that assessor 
assessor.
comes in!
you're not the only one!
she scared me witless when she said that on thursday about coming in 
assessor.
but he, no one 's expecting him and .
yeah but he does,sh you don't.
you get told in advance.
that's alright then.
didn't you hear her on friday when she talked to us?
when oh yeah!
yeah i remember that.
what she says was is erm
i think i'll try to do put some more to this letter.
what she said was last time the assessor came in
mm.
they thought he only wanted to see two people.
he's gonna change his mind and
no.
three.
what, what they thought is that all the ones that 
he tells, he tells us tha that he's going to see two
no!
but when he gets 
it's not like that, no!
what they thought is because he's assessing them and she's, they're assessing us while he's assessing them.
if you know what i mean?
alright!
now, they thought it was only gonna be two because there's only two assessing people, right?
yeah.
but it turned out to be three and she was put in this an awkward position and she doesn't know what to do, the poor girl who got picked!
mm.
they a they'll have the other two, they got told in advance but this one, she never.
and that's all that happened.
but she says you do,sh that you do get told.
but i'm taking no exam!
the r s a one exam!
oh i know!
oh!
mind you if you say it's doing,yo er, started erm writing to somebody you really like and you've gotta get it perfect.
mm.
well that'll be that'll, that will really be hard won't it?
why?
i don't know.
did she say you can use a dictionary?
yeah.
well that'll be da that's daft in your case!
why is it?
cos you ask me how to spell them!
only because i can't be bothered to look in the dictionary sometimes.
ho!
no?
how long have we got till july?
february, march, april, may, june, july.
not long!
six months till july.
well it isn't long when you're in the old .
that's five now.
well i'm not counting this month.
but it is really six though int it?
cos it's the beginning of the month.
oh!
seems like a lifetime!
doesn't it?
seems it, but it's not.
half a year.
i'll tell you what i'm gonna get
what?
that leather outfit.
mm.
it is nice.
no leave it.
i don't you know i might get one myself.
and i want outfits to have the skirts and the jackets.
yeah.
mind you, i don't like the top that goes with it.
you know, what she were wearing in the book?
yeah.
don't like that.
yeah.
it was gi the wrong kind of top.
but the skirt and the jacket were alright.
yeah.
but i don't li like leather.
no.
it looks awful white!
now black.
yeah, but not white.
i think you look weird in whi white leather, people!
what you doing?
looking for a word.
what kind of word?
one that i thought wrong but i think i've got it right.
replied?
mhm.
doesn't mm, i've forgotten how to spell it now!
r e p l y .
i e d .
yeah.
i think.
is it?
i e d ?
correct.
oh i did leave my i out.
yes!
sorry!
do you wear high heels or flat shoes?
fairly high.
how big is fairly high?
two inches?
three?
three's too high for me.
or, two and a half.
well it ain't bad though.
well there's only two mistakes in it linda.
yeah but i haven't really looked at it properly, so
no.
the mistakes are there in the words 
well when i, when i re-do it i'll write it out as i type it and i'll let you see it.
okay.
first.
can i see the other one?
that you won't let me see!
no!
why not!
i said not!
great!
so if i wrote a letter and wouldn't let you see it, how would you feel?
i wouldn't feel anything cos i'm not really bothered!
what if it's about you as well?
well if you write something about me you write something about me!
and if i don't let you see it, i'm dead?
yeah.
you're clever!
very, very clever!
well you think you are!
well, if you think, you think!
do you know that's ?
is it?
well i've not too bothered if you found everything.
no.
who?
as long as you got on well.
really get into rather than i wouldn't take all that much notice of it.
would you?
no.
it's funny, in a bit, in a way.
yeah.
yo yo it was sort of like he got he got hit on the got run over
knocked down.
oh!
didn't get run over.
run over, he actually went down though.
so do you still want ?
he's, he's dead!
you di you didn't really expect him er the way they did it, it wasn't like well you didn't believe he was an angel did you?
really?
until the end.
i didn't think he was anyway!
no i didn't.
until the end.
that's what got me.
mind you the title was a bit funny because it didn't almost an angel but if he died and he went to heaven, then he must have been an angel but came back down, he's still an angel.
yeah, but an angel on probation, don't forget.
oh the funniest part about it was when he set these people's thing .
round and round without knowing.
yeah.
with his sha electric shaver.
oh!
was it his electric shaver?
yeah.
mm.
but with no battery.
i don't know.
i suppose that it was filmed where it was so that she'll be in it.
probably.
she's his wife int she?
mm mm.
mind you don johnson and melanie griffi griffith are alright, are man and wife but they're not in every film together are they?
no.
mind you, tom cruise is.
yeah.
i know he's married his wife's supposed to be in all his films int she?
she can't act!
i know.
she cannot act!
i don't think marrying the husband's gonna do much good.
mm.
i'd like to hear her voice though, she's supposed to be speaking iri irish but i'd like to hear her voice.
australian, american,irish accent !
yeah.
bit of everything.
mind you, we can't act either.
no.
now the best film i've ever seen him in is when he gets killed at the end!
or, even better at the beginning!
the beginning's much better!
mm.
we can hardly speak .
no.
can't help.
mind you, his movie career is going downhill a bit.
yeah.
he's born on the fourth of july.
started going down.
yeah.
well, anybody could see that the stupid bu er the way they've he was made up to look like a forty year old and he still looked like a twenty year old!
yeah.
and nobody can imagine him like that in twenty years time.
was born on the fourth of july after top gun?
i don't know.
or was it after cocktail?
i think it was after cocktail.
no, it were before!
it weren't, it was after!
it were after.
now cocktail would have been a, been a bit dull if he hadn't have been in it!
yep.
still like it when she's in babysitting .
that's a good film.
mind you don't mind going i in the mornings to work but in the middle of the day
no.
don't think you
no, but if you go in the middle you've got a chance to wake up.
well i prefer to be in the mornings so 
you have to get early don't you?
well you do anyway so it don't really matter.
but you've got some time to wake up haven't you?
proba yeah but well we haven't got all that long to go now.
november.
mm.
never know, you might have a full time job by then.
yeah.
no but
we might even be in america before then.
well maybe, if only!
but, next year will be fine.
it'll be alright by me.
and when would you like to make debut then?
oh!
next year probably.
what about this year?
while the fuel's still hot.
probably this year.
because i am i am beginning to think maybe they could be be erm game feature of the .
i hope i'll i'll wait this year.
i hope summat ha happens here.
it'll be great timing!
but wrestle mania's the biggest one here.
hulk.
i bet he would.
i bet he's .
how about four months?
or when everything's settled.
no.
better get in while it's hot.
yes, but you've gotta wait for your visas and all that lot, remember, like you said.
yeah i know.
and there's another thing one tiny, tiny thing you forgot with all your plans.
what's that?
how are we gonna get you up in the air?
easy.
put me in an aeroplane!
yes!
alright then.
your fear of flying is over!
right?
yeah.
but i am still going to sit right at the back of the aeroplane away from you!
and i still remember what you did to me in the car.
i won't be air sick!
i can still remember what you did to me in the car.
it wasn't my fault, had a big breakfast.
well if you we if you knew you were gonna be sick you could have made it a bit more a different colour than that!
urgh!
urgh!
what's wrong with fiery red ?
thank heavens it didn't go on my purple top!
ah dear.
i do like eggs and bacon for breakfast!
urgh!
did you have to mention meat!
ooh!
there's nothing wrong with bacon.
if you happen to like bacon.
well i don't.
oh i'll not talk about meat!
thank you.
talk about sherry instead.
but i mean
let's talk about meat!
come here!
what for?
aren't you funny?
you're very, very funny!
very, very funny !
you're very ugly!
what were you saying?
or what you don't say?
dunno.
i dunno, i forgot.
come on!
what were you gonna say?
what?
supposing we was over there in america for the beginning of july i couldn't go.
why?
oh linda!
mind you, i suppose 
there's plenty of concerts to go to.
yeah, but this'll be my first concert.
so!
go and see in concert.
.guns and roses.
guns and roses i'm sorry !
i know you can't stand guns and roses.
neither can i.
i'd go and see a guns and roses concert.
i wouldn't.
and take some concrete with me.
i wouldn't.
and do them a nice pair of shoes to walk in .
no.
can't be so mean to animals can you?
no.
yeah but none of them none of them have had a brilliant album out.
go for bryan adams or
yeah.
you can get to go see bryan adams in concert.
june.
i'll go over in june.
besides, i want my exams done first.
oh we'll have them before won't we?
are you quite sure about that?
nope!
well then !
monday, third of february
martin's birthday.
and you're not over there to say, hello!
no.
i'm sure there's plenty of others.
mm?
plenty of others.
suppose so.
but this is, is a special birthday.
just cos he's reaching thirty.
ah!
and he'll be twenty two in may.
nineteen seventy five.
twenty five, that sounded right,seventy five !
well he looks seventy five!
yeah !
we'll be twenty four.
and i'll be twenty one!
in your dreams!
seventy one more like!
ah funny!
yeah.
sorry!
you're only a baby!
get stuffed!
put it this way if i'm only baby, how come people younger than me have already got a family?
i know.
you've gotta put that down to it.
i was your baby at twenty one.
yeah.
well stop calling me a baby!
just because i'm youngest.
not talking to you any more!
are you not?
just don't feel like it now!
don't talk to me any more then!
the only time you can talk to me, you can, when we've got the tickets and we're going.
oh!
and erm eh!
that's an idea!
if i do my exam well before you
you can tell me what to expect .
no.
i could change my hairstyle
and yeah!
you can go in as me!
i could!
yeah.
you could do it for me!
but i'm not cheating.
i think they'll know the difference though.
how do you know?
you're shorter than me !
not all that short!
nice int it?
thickest and sho and short.
i'll tell you who wouldn't call me short?
who?
a dwarf!
ah!
i know.
tom cruise.
i'm about six feet ta taller than he is!
i'll let you get back with your letter.
oh!
there's something else.
poor thing!
me.
softy!
who's this boxing match against anyway?
sorry?
who's this boxing match against?
who?
mam, they're both coloured!
this guy here.
him in the red trunks?
mm.
oh!
he's that and he's run up and down.
these ref referees erm, fighters have funny names don't they?
do you know what tracey wanted me earlier for?
she was writing, she wanted me to look at it.
oh!
i dunno.
wrestle mania?
no!
there's a bad hinge on there!
which one's lennox lewis?
which one's lennox?
that one.
wearing black.
that one.
in the black.
oh!
i thought you meant something else then.
what's a slipstream?
dad?
get down!
that's a slipstream !
hey dad!
what about that other on holiday jumping?
watch this!
i bet that was seafood.
nothing?
i don't where i've put the thing.
what you looking for?
my pen.
which one?
my white one.
you had it
.
there it is, on the table behind the red folder.
up to get changed.
yeah.
oh!
pocket's all wet!
mm?
pocket's all wet!
and dry it.
the inside's dry!
you know what i mean?
well that's er dry but oh it doesn't matter.
i'll put these on.
prefer my own jeans.
now what you doing?
eh?
i have to push it out.
well, before you get carried away remember there's lots to do!
at least i get tha get out of them.
anything, interesting been on?
no.
oh!
shit!
don't start!
i'm not starting !
just laughing!
you will do when we get to come
erm
when we're .
yeah!
yeah!
yes.
carry on.
i'm going!
your mind again.
what?
you've changed your mind?
yes, i've changed my mind about that.
well if you er, change it
but put it this way
oh yes!
we could win a trip to the grammy's in new york.
we could we could erm rub shoulders with erm amy grant could spend the evening with her then.
you you liar!
he did.
you liar!
honest!
you liar!
and then it said, and you, you might get to see prince with his erm .
i'd rather see our dog kill our brian!
well, not kill our brian sort of 
you did.
you did brian, i sa honest.
but i'd rather be there .
never visit the se er, awards like that is he?
he goes and he goes if you live in new york we'll take you to the erm he said then we'll we'll let you fly around the city for a while !
yes, but then the trouble
didn't mean it like!
you didn't mean it?
are you joking?
no i'm not!
the erm, thing about the erm 
the trip, but the er flight?
about the flight round er new york, i was only joking.
oh i'm .
he's so nice!
nice face.
yeah.
yeah.
nice face.
which way round?
i don't know.
it's your .
did you see anything in here?
yes, you showed me everything in there.
no, tracey, show me.
i'm gonna get a proper conditioner for my hair cos it don't look!
how can you make sha conditioner ?
have you really chickened out?
definitely chickened out!
look at that time my dad did that lady over there and left me on the phone and told me to stay there and i was like that.
and 
yeah, but what about me?
mind you, i've had more erm appeara more erm
you've had more experience of erm, cameras than i have.
why?
just because i've been in front of a camcorder!
i wouldn't say i've had experience in movies.
that's the trouble with though she didn't stop every time to get ready for the next scene.
all she did was say carry on as normal.
no, he did that.
ah!
i suppose if you get, when you get there everything'll be alright.
but it was your idea of erm entrances that got me a bit scared.
from the top more from the top.
top.
yeah, but just sa say, if you come from th the top you, you're like a a waist thing round you and if you fall off that'll catch you.
so what do you think?
about the entrance?
can i have a ?
you could come down on the the first half and i can jump and that's like wrestle mania.
mm.
mm.
but our feet will come down like that.
put it this way trace i am more petrified than about this than you are.
that would be a nightmare!
will it?
rod stewart on the ooh!
notices for you, first of all those of you who are on the committee .
any er ideas you've got you've got, please pass on to the committee member thursday dinner time.
the only other er notice i've got for you is that tomorrow i forgot to put it on the notices tomorrow we've got a lot of visitors in school there's about er thirty five of them coming over who are likely to be joining us in the lower sixth next september er lessons with the lower sixth to find out what erm what lessons are like you know okay.
now do welcome them, do make them feel at home, especially those of you who are new to the place you will know and remember what it's like when you first come into a strange building that feels like home.
okay, so erm do them and then if they're lost on practical things like they don't know where the toilet is will you help them.
and er
thank you the only is that you will have seen organised generally supported that although i think we could support it a lot better than we have.
so er think about that and remember 
it's a different format mr dexter this time, we're not having maths we're having a ten minute and that will be followed by a concert .
it's a completely different format, so you might might like to come to that okay.
erm this morning we have er another visitor and who actually was a teacher and works at at a very senior position er heading er very interesting projects to technical location educations and i would like to er introduce you to mr 
good morning everybody.
it's about er ten years ago nearly that i er stopped being a teacher and when i was a teacher er up having to do assemblies er it was always something that i did with great reluctance and er was er pleased if i could get other people to do it er it seems rather odd then er that i've actually said yes coming to do er an assembly here today and it's perhaps a sign of mental instability on my part.
er what is necessary for me to also convey to you is that the theme that i was given today was one of forgiveness .
er the only difference between the situation now and the situation when i was a teacher is that there are a lot of christians in this room per square metre than there would have been in a school where i taught and that applies to where i work now er because er the number of christians who are around me in in the workplace are actually even smaller i guess and er that may be something that er you will need to recognise is an unusual feature of your school life and that er as you leave school so you're going to go into very different environments where people behave very differently.
when a colleague discovered that i was coming here to do this er she saw it as laughable and she also saw it as something that i would prefer to keep quiet from my colleagues and tried a bit of moral blackmail on me as well to say i'm going to tell them about that if you don't them about this sort of thing.
er to contact when you're talking about forgiveness er well that was just the end you know that point.
life isn't always like that for me and there are times when i do have 
christians around me when i am on sundays and on sundays i'm often involved in my own church with er preaching appointments and for me when i'm preaching the the good news that is the heart of is actually one of forgiveness.
i know from my own life of faith that my thoughts, my words and my often fail to match up to the christian ideal there is much that i do that hurts other people and there is much that i do that does not reflect christ.
the christians good news is that guilt and shame that i have of such behaviour is actually taken away from me.
i don't deserve that forgiveness, but the god who loves me who has actually died on the cross for me has actually taken all of that away and more than that has made me new, has actually raised me as a new life with him.
i've been lifted out of my selfishness.
now you think that because i am i am forgiven and i preach forgiveness that i would be pretty good as up people, but that's part of my human failure and i must admit that i've given plenty of opportunity to practice at home and at work er the opportunity to forgive, but it doesn't come easily and certainly it isn't a strong feature of the non-christian world in which i work and which you will be working soon.
forgiveness is not a strong feature of life.
you've been brought up in a television age and you've been particularly been brought up in an age of card cartoons and soap operas and in all of those you would er expect to see good being oppressed that's part of the plot in every cartoon there is a plot in every soap opera, that the good the good people actually end up in difficult situations and the way that results in the cartoons and in the soap operas is usually find revenge or punishment.
let me give an example dirty den got his comeuppance in eastenders erm the road runner always er wants er always manages to get that crafty bull er to the follies of his own tracks.
it's all to do with revenge and punishment rather than with forgiveness.
the only trouble with storylines like that is that life is for more complicated er we may want to see justice be done, we may want to see virtue being rewarded, we may want to see er all of those things happen, but when we make mistakes when we make mistakes, when we are not virtuous, we actually end up not being too keen, but justice should be applied straight away.
we actually want mercy, we want forgiveness, we want leniency.
i've got on the tape here a song which is by manny fryer he used to sing in steel ice band er now i know that that's sort of very old hat, i'm sorry, but i sort of live in the past and er this er i i believe also that these days so that er you know i can sort of justify that but this is a song that er she has sung which er reminds us that each of us has the potential to commit the crime i'll try not to play it fast forward, let's see how we go.
.consider today and it's two things.
i'm inviting you to consider how far a christian should go in forgiving and to how far a christian organisation like this school should go, in showing forgiveness er i just want to kick you off with one or two points on each of those.
that i on the first point about us and our own showing of forgiveness.
jesus himself has things to say, for example his disciples asked him how many times should i forgive somebody else.
i was actually looking at you before i came in, but just come out here for a second there are two ways i can hurt you.
actually there's probably probably three ways that i can hurt you.
one way i can hurt you is physically all right?
and another way i can hurt you is er mentally and the third way i can hurt you is by combining the two together.
all right?
but i think that basically there's either two or three ways that each one of us has the ability to hurt somebody else.
you've been doing it to each other all the time but if i were to hurt you or if anybody else here were to hurt you physically or mentally how many times would you forgive them?
if they did it once, would you forgive them?
yes.
yeah, probably.
if they did the same thing again to you?
maybe.
maybe.
and the third time?
er it's very hard to keep on forgiving somebody for hurting you in the same way over and over again and in this particular example, three times and that's it.
just just all right.
don't more than three times all right thank you very much for your help there.
there is another question, how many times do i forgive somebody.
should it be as many as seven times and jesus had replied both no, no you should be able to forgive forgive them seven times, it should be seventy times in other words stop thinking about counting and just get on with the forgiving.
and in the prayer that jesus 
he says that we should say god please forgive us as we forgive others.
so how far do you actually want god to forgive you up to three times and then no more you know it's it's that kind of er question that we're asking and that we that i feel that is something we should be thinking about that how far should a christian go in forgiving.
it's er all this is a fascinating theory or is it a question in real life.
i invite you to think about just how far you should go in forgiving others in daily living, whether it's in here or outside.
another on the second point about how far a christian organisation like this school should go in showing forgiveness.
you may be familiar with those sorts of stories which say my convent life was hell with the sisters of mercy er that kind of story about er church organisations that absolute not to show er christian qualities in the way that they are organised is quite true that often christian organisations do find it hard to show forgiveness.
so should a school like this one equip for the realities of unforgiveness of the world outside, or should it be much more generous in the way it shows forgiveness and can a school be organised so that it does actually reflect christ's teaching on forgiveness.
is this the impossible.
i'll be interested to hear what the teachers have to think about that and like you.
can we just end with a a short story about the job that i used to do before i did this one.
when i went to the first meeting i had been appointed to the job, i went to the first meeting and there in front of me were lots of people who were managing their own schools and they were organising how to spend money that they had been allocated.
all sorts of managing business and they had to work together and to hold group organisations.
the person whom i was going to take over the job from said to me at the end of the meeting well what do you think of that meeting and i must admit i the answer and luckily somebody else instructed with some other business and i felt i got off the hook here but in fact that got dealt with very quickly and he came back to me and said well what did you think of the meeting and i had to say to him just one word,was the way i put it.
because everybody in that meeting was thinking about blaming other people they were actually trying to say it's not my fault that thing come in, it's not my fault that things are like this, it's somebody else's fault in a different organisation.
it's not us, it's them.
and then i had to work with these people and i knew that that was the kind of way that they were operating and i had to teach them by the way i worked but in fact it was okay to admit that we do make mistakes.
we have to admit that each one of us could fail in what we were supposed to be doing and in fact then we could work together, that we could forgive each other and that we could support each other in our work.
in my present job i still try to keep that going.
we do need to be able to show forgiveness in all the things that we do but it isn't easy and jesus devotion to is a great challenge to us as to just how far we can go.
so in your groups now i appreciate it and i have asked .
erm i'd like you to be considering those two points.
first how far a christian should go in showing forgiveness and second how far a christian organisation like this school should go in showing forgiveness.
thanks for your patience.
that was very kind of you sir james erm .
particular example, remember this is all confidential i i'm told so er er it won't go any further than this room.
got anything 
all the time 
so do you think it's something to do with maturity perhaps a child, a child is this wha what do you mean by forgiving?
you can forgive or punish at the same time can't you, you can punish somebody and say that is wrong and yet you forgive them, that is you don't hold it against them but you later on.
they may get they get sort of get a bad name and perhaps not 
no.
no.
you also have to think of the effect it has on other people, how er if you just let people get away with it, it doesn't mean you hate them, loathe them and damn them but er you've got to make them realise that for other people, for everybody.
what do you think er graham.
what the parents you know .
one-to-one 
yes .
martina?
really.
how then, how then?
christians are supposed to forgive, but what if say it's the mother of somebody who had a child that's been murdered or if somebody has been raped you cannot say that they should forgive you cos they were a christian.
there's a lot of talk about forgiving or forgetting isn't there, some people say i can forgive but i can never forget.
er you might think about some of these parents who have children murdered in the how much do you think revenge comes into it?
is it?
it's not that they're in rehabilitation, it's just like seeing that person is locked away in the prime of their lives revenge .
is this revenge or is this just the stopping other people from suffering really?
shut up 
anyway 
they ask about school say, but i don't think schools have the authority really to do anything either way about er forgiveness.
it's like if you fall out with a teacher on the first day of term, if that teacher 
you haven't that chapter for the rest of the year and say the teacher probably thinks well this child and
i think forgiveness is not always 
an ideal 
forgive thine enemy always remember 
well next time i'll kick you 
okay number one.
yes, yes, yes.
number one then please spell the word romeo, romeo.
number two spell the word juliet number three spell the word capulet, capulet.
number four spell the word montague, montague number five spell the word tybaot, tybaot number six spell benbolio, benbolio number seven balthasar, balthasar number eight spell the word escales, escales, the prince of rome.
number nine spell the word mercutio, mercutio number ten spell the word paris number eleven is worth two marks i want you to spell friar and lawrence.
you get a mark for each.
friar and lawrence, friar and lawrence.
next one, mantua, mantua.
when romeo went to mantua then verona, verona the last one is apothecary, apothecary, the man who sells romeo the poison.
apothecary.
okay, swap books then.
right, we'll go through them then erm and i would like to put your hands up tell me how to spell them.
so number one romeo, can someone spell romeo for me please.
r o m e o 
perhaps it was .
mum, what's the difference between these pink ones and the normal ones?
dunno really!
nice is it?
what pink?
i bought some this morning.
i just went into the kitchen then .
god!
dog!
come on then!
come on then, in you come!
jack!
in you come!
stand there and you can er er cold !
i think it's just a different kind of brochure.
sorry?
i thought it was a different kind of brochure that's all.
what's ?
are you in here?
very good!
.
want some coffee?
erm please?
can i have it white though mum?
sorry?
can i have it white though?
white.
white coffee?
yeah.
i always do white coffee!
no you don't you do something like that browny colour.
what?
more milk in you mean?
yeah.
a lot more milk, about half.
i bet you're absolutely delighted it's half term aren't you?
not really.
no?
not really.
aren't you?
school's alright, it's the lessons that are sad!
sorry?
school's alright it's just the lessons !
don't look very big do they?
don't worry about them.
i'll .
you'll be on your own.
yeah!
it'll be you can't do this, you can't do that!
i won't do anything!
what's beth doing this week?
she's gone off to erm isle of wight.
what?
she's going back to the isle of wight.
she's not is she?
mm.
what, all week?
yeah.
oh no!
when is she going?
today.
eh?
today.
she's not!
what are you going to do all week?
nothing i can do really!
have to have jo over then won't you?
eh?
i suppose!
you gotta have jo down haven't you?
no, don't worry they just just gets on my nerves that's all.
what?
gets on my nerves that's all.
why?
just does.
in what way?
just does!
sorry!
well speak jessica!
is that beetroot nice?
don't know.
what's wrong with it?
why aren't you using a spoon?!
i'll spoon it in!
don't be funny!
i think you've run out haven't you?
yeah.
kay?
yeah, we haven't got any ronson.
i haven't got any.
i won't be able to get any.
what a disaster!
they've already been today.
erm what's similar?
oh god!
i don't know!
erm da da da da da.
rothmans got an r on the end!
ah yes, liam !
yeah i 
the number threes are quite popular.
is it?
okay.
one sixty nine.
we'll go for those then.
and .
yeah, thank you.
that'll do.
one sixty nine then please?
one sixty one alright?
yeah.
and those two look!
yep!
yeah?
not bad!
seven pound nine change.
that's lovely!
thanks ever so 
sorry about that!
mu , that's okay!
don't worry!
i'm sure i can manage!
thanks a lot then!
bye!
jack!
i can't hold it's killing my back you'll have to take him!
yeah.
bad dog!
she's gonna mi miss the train in a minute!
really?
yeah, it's ten to ten and she's 
has she gone?
she's buying a paper.
i hope she hasn't cos i've her bag here!
sit!
now, hang on a minute!
sit!
is the train there?
no, not yet.
god!
nearly bloody killed me that dog!
i'm gonna sit down.
you nearly killed me, pulling!
he pulls!
no!
he really pulled me hard!
i saw sophie then.
is the
sit down!
right platform?
yes.
she's just going completely bonkers woman!
no cos come on then!
over here with him je!
please don't pull!
hey!!
oh he wants a good run.
he's had one this morning!
where's she gone now?
where's she gone?
she'll be up there.
sure we're on the right platform?
think so.
he shot me down the spar shop at about ninety five miles an hour!
my back!
hopefully, i think it's late anyway.
ah !
shall we have a sit down in a minute then?
oh fine!
je!
erm, when the er train comes he's gotta go over because he won't like it.
been up here before!
no but he's i it's slightly altered since then.
oh right.
then?
i've had to buy some really horrible ones!
mm!
loads of chocolate!
oh that's for us on saturday night.
oh!
good god!
i know.
how much were they ?
dunno.
didn't ask.
now?
yeah.
nearly killed me that dog!
i haven't erm taken him for absolutely ages!
he's so cuddly ain't he?
mm.
i took him to the spar shop !
i must write up all my
mm.
he's not
good dog!
a good dog!
now sit down and just calm 
he's been 
down!
he's been to the station before.
yes, but he hasn't been for ages has he?
and he's been wrestling with this alsatian 
see if jack goes towards the 
puppy and he bowled the puppy over !
jack's .
no just stop him.
oh for go je!
jessica!
you just get him over excited!
stop being stop getting him 
look you've got the 
neurotic!
for goodness sake!
cor that was a proper macho man i could tell!
would he be on ?
probably will hands .
yeah.
calm down now.
good boy!
calm down.
oh this one's only everyone 
sit!
said to me this morning.
lie down!
stay!
good!
stay!
i can't hear what he's saying!
well
nothing.
i love going on a nice train journey!
i wish i was coming with you.
i know.
just sit and and you don't have 
five hours?
oh i'd love it!
i would love 
so would i.
it!
that's already now.
oh it's packed this train innit?
oh it's a policeman!
oh no!
oh no!
sit down!
lie down!
no.
don't harass him all the time jessica you make him neurotic!
get all that for bloody i owe that back rent don't i?
here it comes.
it's late.
no it's on time isn't it?
five .
oh no it's not, everybody's moving!
no it's the wrong one!
it's the wrong one!
it's going into another statwell so that little .
i used to go to primary school in this on a train.
we did once didn't we?
yeah!
look at that!
why's he going here ?
it's fascinating or he's fascinated!
he's fascinated though!
mm.
we might see you at easter then?
possibly.
that's my one isn't it?
oh and i just found that .
what is it?
found it in the post office.
what is it?
ten p off.
oh!
that's it.
no.
oh no he's 
he's very good!
he's very 
oh well 
good!
he's a good boy!
he's !
yeah, all fluffy and good aren't you?
tongue hanging out!
got lovely bright eyes!
looking very well these days!
masters again, yeah.
what do you mean masters?
mastered to get into the race.
just gave it some thought, give it some thought and initiative and you're in!
i bet, i bet he's scared 
i walked down this ledge , walked down the stage and there's for security guards.
you cannot walk past them if you're going in that way.
so we had to go past this little shed which is right up right up this stupid grass earthy bank right over the side so we could see quickly how to get in.
went right round the bottom of this field, looked round the bank and there was just a bloody great hole in the gate massive!
walked through there and got to the simulator took our jackets off, pretended we'd already been in walked straight past and we were right on site!
we wasn't aware it was there.
well i thought, saved us twenty quid!
so all ?
we were going , we were in!
we're in!
we're in!
pretty good!
so all that row then was for absolutely nothing at all wasn't it really?
eh?
all that 
and i used my old pass to go on stage anyhow so
have you got to pass for the stage then?
yeah.
i used an 
what 
old one.
so those but fantasia passes are very similar, i just turned mine turned mine round she saw it and went she showed me a blank yellow so i didn't thought it perhaps a different pass but it wasn't just turned it round on her.
i bet your friends a will be sick then, won't they?
i just think that when you're up there it's like the stage is a huge platform going out into the crowd, a long one!
and there must have been about ten thousand there last time.
they had one of those gyroscopes you can go in and you can spin round.
oh yeah!
they had one of those in there but i didn't have a go on it though, it was about three quid to go on!
those lasers lasers that the .
velcro walls?
no, they didn't have that there.
a huge octopus,octopus -ish, had these massive tentacles that's going right the way across the ceiling!
video screens.
very good!
they're all gonna be pissed on friday cos we got in for nothing!
why is your voice so quiet?
cos the washing machine out there it's .
what sort of smoke from the machine?
hiss!
oh it's ?
no !
what hissing?
proper smoke machine.
oh!
mum!
i've got to write to bicksons.
mm.
ask them to write me a reference so i got form to fill in to send off for something but i've gotta write something.
and i've gotta to, i've gotta say something to them.
yeah, well?
and i dunno who i'm writing to either.
well, put the principal.
what should i say?
what do you think i should say?
ask to write me a ah i know who i'll ask, alright..
well cos said that this guy said that 's the guy in so i could
well then you
i can
have to send him a stamped envelope with the address of the guy and putting on it.
he'll be more inclined to do it then won't he?
oh what , what inside in the 
inside the letter that you're writing to him.
i think that that would probably be quite a good idea wouldn't it, really?
yes?
you must be exhausted?
why don't you go to sleep?
this stuff haven't i?
i've got things to do.
i suppose we could just ignore it.
it's a waste of a day isn't it, really?
i'd rather be extremely tired.
saw zac last night.
what did erm, he say?
that's why, i said i, i said i'd heard about you in the papers and the just said oh yeah!
was he embarrassed?
no.
wouldn't you be?
a bit, yeah.
i'd be very embarrassed!
see you've got that thing going whilst my voice is going.
it's alright.
i took it down to the spar shop as well.
did you?
and erm i took it to the park with jack and he kept pulling and i said bloody dog!
and and then er i took it to the station as well, but i couldn't get many other voices, they were a bit garbled but it works really well!
it is such a good machine that!
the mike on that is so good!
what's he barking about?
where is he?
jack!
shut up!
he's got his hackles up!
look!
why is he always barking?
just for .
speak to me .
so erm did dad say anything else then?
about the trip?
not really.
he just told you off for being a pain, i bet!
did he?
telling me to take my earring out to have my passport photos done.
and take my earring out when i go to have an interview.
if they don't love me for what i am that's just tough shit!
yeah, but i mean if it, if it erm if it means that that it might spoil your entry into it, it's such a sa small thing isn't it?
really?
eh?
they would employ if it was just such a small thing.
no pudding thank you!
could i have a yoghurt today instead of tomorrow?
i really 
no!
feel like one!
no.
too expensive!
what?
i was gonna offer you a drink then if you said yes.
i'll make mine if i had to!
one of those old ones maybe, not the tesco ones.
mm.
oh thanks.
oh he's just eaten my toast out of my hand this dog!
naughty boy!
naughty boy!
you should get more of the .
aha!
i can't help it after that.
where's your ?
bring your down.
go back up again.
where did poppa go?
oh dear!
i'm so tired!
you, i thought you are you just start getting the shakes by the window again weren't you?
he'll be going to centre of erm dog standing out there.
let's have a look.
i'll have that small coffee.
it's up there look.
can you see it?
where?
there?
where is it?
it's there look!
you're not gonna be able to do it again are you?
is he up there yet jessica?
rupert, you still owe me two cigarettes!
yeah, i'm going to give you those now!
great!
would you?
cos i haven't got very many ah, i'm so tired!
can't keep awake today!
feel awful!
i think i'm going to have to give my job up .
why?
because my back is getting terribly bad!
can't you just say your back's , just have a rest for a while?
that's the sa 
i can't!
i can't go a week with no money!
oh, what you gonna do then?
i'll have to work won't we?
i mean unless you
don't be silly !
i don't know what to do really but just finding it very tiring!
here she comes again!
eh?
that dog's the dog's in now look!
it's a shame!
a shame!
come on popper dog!
no!
no!
no!
you've been out twice this morning.
i like that jacket there, it's nice isn't it?
yeah it's .
do you dance then a at these things?
wha what a sort of jumping dance?
what do you mean jumping?
ah, ha ha ha ha!
like that.
proper , proper dancing.
proper dancing?
is it, is it sort of is it a certain raving dance then or what is it?
well not particularly.
it's just when music's being played like that keep going and one point don't you, really?
what?
i dunno really.
show me.
no !
why ?
why not?
i'm aching all over.
see all that bolshy all that silly bolshiness was totally unnecessary wasn't it?
i tell you all those fantasia security blokes are a bunch of prats, all of them!they're all so stubborn!
well er 
why?
in what way?
just go up on the stage and just start just talking to people and suddenly they, get back!
get back!
get off!
get off!
why was they saying were they saying it to you then ?
said it to loads of people!
go on, get off!
get out the way!
you know?
anybody from cornwall there?
yeah, who?
neil was there, chris was there, wayne was there, a few others.
i thought, i thought that matthew was
no he's not there, he's skint!
god he's spent he's spent all his grant hasn't he?
god!
he's gonna get into some awful trouble isn't he?
mm.
i mean, he's nearly as as overdrawn as sophie and she's, she's nearly completed her course!
i know!
he just hasn't got a clue though!
he doesn't care yo hasn't got a clue!
he must be worried about it though?
surely he must be worried?
well i was talking to him about it, i said i reckon you've spent the you've spent quite a bit now so you might as well just go another get final .
three years!
three year course!
i know !
and he can't he usually works in the bistro in padsdown, he couldn't work in there to repay it!
because when he's in there his wage packets are like minus fifteen pounds when he's in there!
why?
because he spends it all!
so really he's got to get a job which is gonna pay the majority of it off.
but i'll be down at dad's till ti till september.
come up here, then up to heathrow airport.
when are you going to 
dad's?
no oh not for ages yet?
and you going to bristol on monday?
i want to go with matthew.
is matthew going then is he?
yeah?
t, q to do, erm
what's the date today?
it's a dear sir isn't it, obviously?
have you what's the date?
and she said well, i'm see that i've twenty second er i'm sending him that, mum, to do my reference cos they've gotta they've gotta have that.
well do you think i should write to god!
shut up!
eh?
what do you think i should say to the principal?
erm dear sir
erm and i'll put erm at present i am oh!
dunno what to write!
no listen!
would you be erm dear sir would you be i, no!
i wo was at bicktons
oh he knows that!
such and su , no he doesn't!
he won't remember you until you i explain who you are!
alright.
i know.
i was at bicktons which which year was that?
that was the nineteen ninety year wasn't it?
mum!
was it?
is there any water for a bath mum?
studying
mum?
i don't know.
for 
have you had one rupert?
i expect so, yeah.
yes, loads!
when did you have one?
about, hour and a half a go, two hours ago.
you don't like rupert's coat mum?
don't cough at him!
what is it?
what's happened about rupert's coat?
come on!
you may as well tell me !
come on!
what's happened to it?
nothing.
come on rupert!
nothing!
tell me please!
swapped my coat with neil!
and you're lying!
i'm not lying!
don't lie!
bicktons study for an n c a 
what is it?
tell me!
he swapped it with neil!
you're lying!
i'm not!
get down here!
he's not!
get here!
go have a bath matt!
if i was you.
matthew!
i was at
what?
something's up, you wouldn't do that!
he looked at you and coughed at you, there's something going on!
i didn't!
i'm coughing anyway, don't get silly!
just don't worry about it!
here are rupert's jacket, cos he likes my jacket alright?
look,i was at bicktons studying for an n c a two summers ago , but like ju , it doesn't really matter it's just irrelevant really.
an n c a two summers ago?
well what shall i write then?
two years ago wasn't it?
two years ago.
and i was at bicktons studying for an n c a two years ago.
an a i am 
i am , at present i am applying for a job on the 
yo , you're not applying for a job you are applying to to erm go to australia
to, hang on!
i was at bicktons studying for n c a two years ago .
i am oh!
ah, this is crap!
mum help me out 
oh!
will you!
i haven't slept!
what 
i wa 
is it?
read it out again!
i was at bicktons studying for n c a two years ago .
i am hoping to
hang on!
i am
hoping to go
hoping to go to 
to australia.
australia, through 
in 
in s september 
with the whoever it is
through the i a b a.
through the i a b a programme .
i need a reference
hang on.
you can't put i need
would you be kind enough
would you be kind enough to complete the reference for me?
and send it to 
to provide me with a reference.
would you be kind enough to provide 
provide me with a reference
with a reference ?
yeah?
and send it to the given stamped envelope.
and send it in the pre-paid envelope
to provide me with the reference,would you be kind enough to provide me with a reference and send it via oh my god!
and se 
i just i just dunno what
and send it in the pre-paid envelope.
i don't know what he'll think of this !
and 
send it i send it in the pre-paid envelope?
envelope.
in the pre paid envelope .
what, to the address given, yeah?
no!
cos it's erm, the pre-paid envelope is where it's going isn't it ?
pre-pa , that's it isn't it?
that's all i 
yeah.
have to write?
yours faithfully yours sincerely or faithfully?
faithfully's nicer isn't it?
faithfully?
god answer me!
i !
christ!
oh well that'll do!
yours faithfully rupert .
look!
this is ridiculous!
the twentieth was on the thursday friday
twenty first yesterday.
saturday
i need er, bicktons address now.
where's matthew's letter?
yeah, that's right!
he went to work on the friday wi 
tape three b and i shall get my
would you like your 
twenty five 
there of vouchers.
which i shall enjoy spending won't i?
aye!
so say something brian for god's sake!
where's the paper ?
just put on japanese .
oh joe!
look at his little sides!
oh my sugar?
mummy?
yes please.
do you know every time i put a pen anywhere in this house they just disappear!
here's one.
.
oh thank you.
sit down!
okay, three b and over to you!
how do you ?
two sugars is it mum?
yeah.
the tape's 
mum!
going.
this thing.
oh are you?
ooh!
i'm coming!
i'm going!
aha.
mm.
is that seaweed ?
okay.
erm what's the date today?
twenty third.
bo bo bo bo, bo bo bo bo bo, bo bo bo bo .
will you say something mel and then i can write your name down there.
erm anyway, we're going in newton abbot, in newton abbot choose our for the model.
thank you!
are we?
yeah.
well not in newton abbot actually but i won't
to choose our own clothes?
mm mm.
and then buy them?
no.
can we keep them if we got them?
ha, no !
you go in and choose an evening wear
oh, i'll take laura ashley then!
ha?
take laura ashley.
go in one
laura ashley's a bit sort of sort of, more mum's age stuff innit?
it's not 
well that dress sophie's got in there is lovely!
sorry?
that dress sophie's got in there is lovely!
oh yeah!
no, they gotta choose from sa miss selfridges, new look, dorothy perkins top girl
yeah.
mm all them shops.
what's this for?
modelling we're doing at school.
oh!
get a proper hairstylist in.
when you doing it?
march.
no.
sadly, it's not!
hey, you know on friday was there a ?
didn't go.
cos we never get told any more.
yeah, so we've got three weeks to rehearse everything!
oh, but you dunno how we're walking down yet do we?
yeah, think that out.
we don't know how we're gonna stand.
mm.
and erm another thing is that, we got the dress rehearsal the night before the show!
we need longer than that!
won't we?
need about ninety dress rehearsals!
not that many!
how about if your clothes and fall flat on your face!
i'll run down it!
yeah!
you're the one who's practising there 
me and, did you see me and sarah we went up and we went back down again.
no.
no, cos we were sitting down down by yourself cos it was the last, it's the last one people out.
everyone was walking, you just holding on your like a weren't you?
yeah.
thing tho , but that one where they had to knock people out i reckon the least you looked mm, the more casual you look, you get in.
i had to walk normally.
cos yo 
mm, so did i.
well ran down the bottom bit!
sarah, sarah wanted you she had her arm like this .
yeah.
they seem to have 
do you erm don't you keep any erm
no.
no.
you don't what i'm going to say!
clothes.
clothes.
what about changes then?
oh yeah.
mm mm.
just some clothes, yeah?
yeah.
you don't?
no.
oh that's a bit of a !
i wanna know what they're gonna do for shoes and that, cos not many of us have got many shoes.
yeah!
yeah.
i'm not likely for you to do it.
e everybody knows that!
thanks mum!
why isn't there isn't any knives!
can you get me one 
they're in the dishwasher.
i would have thought they would have given you erm something don't you?
no, the problem is they'll be all but then they'll be secondhand shoes.
sorry?
they'd be secondhand shoes because they've been worn for three days.
yeah.
that's right.
the shoes would have been secondhand so there's a chance they won't let us have them.
when is it again?
march.
twenty fifth, isn't it?
i think!
yeah.
i am going to be in the front seat!
oh no you're not!
i'll speak to you.
my mum wants a front seat as well!
there'll be a great big clamour i sho i should think for those seats!
i think it's hilarious!
but you're very loud, they'll all going shh!
i won't laugh i promise!
no, you'll, look you be better 
i'll be really serious.
so
you would like to do?
i was, i did wanna do that when i was about five.
you did , didn't wanna do it you je?
no.
well i can't really with black teeth anyway can i?
well, you don't have black teeth by the time everything's finished!
erm what about these trips and plays erm what are you painting?
erm yeah, i've got to put it under there and then with the twenty .
have you got a clean have you got clean underwear?
no.
well why don't you it'll be blooming !
it's a long time!
it's only three days.
it's not!
it's four days.
three nights je.
it's very good isn't it?
i need a .
sorry?
he and i go .
you don't have to .
i'm not!
tomorrow.
i've got my !
do you want or marmite on mel?
i'll just have butter.
sorry?
just have butter please?
marmite?
no, i'll just have butter.
plain.
can i have it plain please, with 
plain?
butter.
have it with marmalade on.
sure?
yeah.
with some chicken.
with chicken.
our chicken got killed!
yeah!
oh!
i won't eat chicken now!.
chicken's .
that's cos i told them .
do you know who jamie is?
you know joe friend?
is that her brother?
ah!
he's tired!
up here.
hey!
what?
my dog's not 
he'll get onto the table!
he doesn't get on the table!
he goes on to my lap.
unless he's really tired.
oh that's jack's towel.
oh!
he takes it out into the so i put it out
mm, yeah.
so he can't get up onto the there's a hole in matt's stuff!
i didn't realize it was half term this week.
didn't you?
no!
just gonna make it a lot easier with her .
oh yeah.
very kind of them!
yeah, but steve said it just used to .
it's always better having somebody though isn't it?
than them on on their own.
yeah.
better write those times down i suppose.
i didn't have to pay mine back at well i can't afford anything really !
don't know what to do about it, do you?
what shall we do?
well to go i'll have se i'm not gonna not gonna ignore it, i'm gonna
where did you go last night then?
nowhere really.
nowhere!
i was with a 
after that he went out!
didn't go up there.
came home early didn't you?
up ah yeah.
with anne.
with anne?
i felt terrible cos when he said he had one or two
did you?
yes.
who bought that?
me.
what happened to that ?
i think they're all er aren't they?
cooking on sunday morning!
who is?
i like that!
are we allowed to ?
this time we will .
i did go.
yeah, i knew i i re 
up there you didn't no.
yeah.
mum,whe where's ?
down by the front door.
oi!
matthew don't do that!
well!
well then!
if you had to do them when you you were
come on!
as well!
well i didn't .
you were using 
can i have a look at yours?
just don't worry i'll be .
i won't get anything cos you .
i've already got one.
they're animals !
yeah!
i've been wanting to get out .
like me, i always 
ah!
oh you've started to spit already !
but that was .
yeah.
now he's started to take them.
then you , come here!
is this thing on?
hello!
are you on?
yes i
you two could buy a pint of milk each today i think.
if i buy any more bloody milk i shall go bonkers!
well yeah, i i'll have cereal this morning then if i do!
yeah, course you will!
cos i was gonna have it night and in the morning, no point 
mum, yeah!
buying milk 
mum, i don't want that one then she goes back on the three,goes, yeah?
well, it'll be easiest won't it?
be easier wouldn't 
yeah.
it?
save me buying twice 
so have that one.
so like, one is
yeah.
i'll buy a pint of milk but i want some of that!
well go on then!
as long as you buy the milk, i don't mind you having cereal.
it just gets on my nerves having to buy a pint like 
got cereal?
not .
don't know how the cereal's going don't bloody 
and you thinks of his mum!
well i just don't how it pint of milk every time then isn't it?
rupert does, i think tend to get through a hell of a lot of milk.
yeah, it's like having two lots of 
rupert gets through all the milk!
cereal!
every night!
yeah.
and then has a glass, i mean, the number of times he , i mean i think he's the only one who drinks milk by the glassful!
should of got to sat here!
oh !
, it's nothing serious!
by mistake!
don't you .
i was looking at some last night and they had erm privately owned cottages or
mm.
or whatever and they were a hundred pounds a week or 
mm.
is it but you see you could er pay for them on the ferry then 
on the ferry there.
don't you?
that's the only thing.
oh yeah.
if you could work it out and see how much it would be
yeah.
and see if it's any
yeah.
cheaper because food's no erm problem i'll be taking loads with me anyway, which we would do anyway.
we'd be on anyway 
yeah.
erm
and it's then hardly anything on food.
well food's not that expensive out there.
it's, it's the 
same as here isn't it, really?
yeah but i mean the fruit and veg out there, that was
mm.
rea i mean that was cheaper wasn't it?
seemed to be anyway somewhat.
well they do it by the kilo which works out cheaper.
the price per pound was the same, i think.
i worked it out.
but i dunno!
i just thought that it seemed to be, you know?
anyway, we don't eat much when we're in heat anyway do you?
the hot weather it doesn't, they don't really do mashed potatoes and
yeah.
like carol's doing and those revolting french sausages!
went into the supermarket and it said and it said pour, not it said erm pour le animal, well any fool would have thought that was poor the animals, and carol said that looks nice, we'll,we'll have a pile of that!
i said you read the sign on it ?
did you have them?
no, she didn't buy it!
oh my god there's so much horse meat which puts me right off!
i would never eat their meat out there anyway cos i think pony in it
shit!
so i'd rather 
mum!
well i'm not 
.
i know.
we'd flying through hamburg.
that's what i was saying, you're sort of middle of august
fifteenth of august.
well that's a sa , yeah, so round about then
yeah.
there so we'd have we'd be going out , coming back .
yeah?
yeah, ask.
what do we do ?
be sensible about this!
go on then!
what do you want to say?
what?
where?
that bloke was so mean weren't he?
that er er 
i'll put on there now.
.gonna do some work 
should have nabbed him the park though!
after a week.
sophie's very shortly hadn't i?
isn't it?
very tiny!
can i have a drink please mum?
stretchy cheese!
can i have a drink 
ah!
please mum?
stretching !
oh!
oh!
what do you want jessica?
erm, lemon please?
well, fizzy lemon.
right, i'll go see one.
did you want one?
ooh, yes please.
i can't understand that bit, below a certain amount .
shall i do those drinks then mum?
go round sylvia's next week?
me?
yeah.
are you going?
mm.
going shopping.
oh!
oh look at that hanging 
tuesday.
off of it!
tuesday?
it's always a bit loose.
more clothes?
mm.
don't believe you!
i really don't!
ooh!
ooh!
well why does it to me?
your wardrobe's practically the size 
it's only .
of my bedroom!
yeah.
the amount of clothes you've got !
what?
strange!
extraordinary isn't it?
what's extraordinary?
you are!
just lift these up.
i had that last night it was really light!
what do you say?
what do you say?
.
hup!
hup!
hup!
oh god !
merci!
thank you.
one thing's popped the sort of 
dad look it's fizzing on top, look!
as well.
oh!
try it and .
i just turned it off.
it's fizzing up!look!
all this smoke coming out!
can you see that?
what is?
mm.
can you see that look, all the little bits of
tomorrow.
well, i can't just 
oh yours as well!
look, can you see out of here, watch!
i've postdated it, i mean you know
oh!
what?
lemonade up my nose!
have you got everything but socks and knickers now haven't you?
did you ask rupert if you could use his rucksack?
no!
he's not here.
i haven't got anything else for her to take except that enormous thing!
look!
dunno what he's gonna say.
i'll who ru ?
yeah.
it's tough isn't it?
what if he wants to go bristol or or something?
yeah.
you know what he's like about
there's must be something else you can 
taking off!
oh it's all in there now!
well it doesn't, that's not the point is it?
i mean you've done it, you haven't even said you didn't say to mum or i!
i did!
she did!
she asked, she asked 
mum told me!
me and i thought it might be alright, but on second thoughts where's that little blue case?
did i chuck that away?
i must have done?
blue case?
the little weeny blue suitcase?
is it in your room under your, under your, mum?
is it on your 
wardrobe or under your wardrobe or something?
since christmas!
you have to all you can do today is drop me off in, near the memorial in chudleigh cos i got 
yeah?
yeah, cos i gotta and se 
oh , are you not going home?
no, cos i gotta go and see a friend about something so 
right.
oh my god!
yeah.
it might not be a frantically good i idea if you know how peculiar he is!
yeah, he nicked my stuff to cornwall!
what's that?
lemonade.
oh jessica!
squeeze the cloth out first!
you've made yourself soaking wet, look at you!
what?
that's alright.
looks as if you've wee'd yourself!
all over the 
oh !
table!
look at him!
look at him in ooh! ooh!
under the table!
ha ha, ha ha!
and he comes back 
come on!
look at him!
look at him all spiky!
ah ah ah!
shut up!
a pussy cat.
he's looking out the window now.
my pussy cat bites back!
dogs and will turn round and hit it!
it'll go schoom !
i'm not erm cutting 
no!
the hedge quickly enough 
down!
growing up.
my cat scares dogs!
down!
get off!
eh?
my cat scares the dogs.
i'm not surprised!
we got four lovely 
he'd be scared if he was
put your leg down!
i got 
er , approached.
mm mm.
we've got four local dogs and they 
lay down!
and all the dogs don't like my cat!
this one
lie down!
oh don't!
he just dribbled all over me!
that'll do!
yeah.
absolutely massive!
no it's 
that one 
not, it's quite small that one!
it's not!
i'm not taking that !
well you'll have to take something cos you can't take one!
well i wouldn't, jack's dribbling on me!
he's got a runny nose!
yuk!
come here!
look sit down and stay there!
he's stiffened his lead.
come here!
he's going down.
lie down!
does erm your m mum do baking?
does she?
yeah.
she's a caterer, yep.
oh is she?
yeah.
in what way?
she works for a pub.
where's that?
i thought she worked in a building society?
must have got the wrong person.
oh!
it's the wrong person mum!
which pub's that?
royal oak in ideford.
oh the royal, oh with that ghastly man who's 
mm.
drunk all the time!
how does she get on with him?
she's always trying to sober him up !
sorry?
she's always trying to sober him up!
oh horrible!
always drunk isn't he?
he's a sweet old man though.
is he?
gets me nice birthday presents!
does he?
mm.
oh that's nice!
he got me a ring a few years ago.
oh that's nice!
i lost it though.
i got my 
how's about dad?
what does he do?
a a man.
he's the er, an an a a man?
yeah.
oh!
and my mum's a postwoman in the mornings.
is she?
yeah !
good for her!
so it's out at half past five, in at nine
i quite fancy being a postwoman!
out at twelve in the mor out at twelve in the afternoon, back at four then back out at seven.
what, what, oh!
eveni what, sort of sorting or
out erm well, mum, in the morning she works as a postwoman and then the rest of the day she works as a, in the pub so 
oh i see!
and erm and it's really frantic though!
cos in the afternoon she does catering from the pub and then the evening she just works behind the bar.
oh!
it's boring over there though because like it gets pretty boring!
it is a bit boring over that way isn't it?
mm.
there's nobody, oh it's just dismal!
i hate going over there!
mm.
.
packer is it, packham isn't it you live?
hackham.
hulkham?
hackham.
hackham?
yeah.
bet it's i bet it's boring there isn't it?
six houses!
oh god!
jessica would absolutely freak if i suggested
no i wouldn't!
we live out there!
wouldn't you?
well it's , it's about it's about ten minute walk to chudleigh isn't it?
love it!
i'm never in!
mm mm !
i don't think i'd like to go in there!
and it's about a five minute up to holdam market on a sunday isn't it?
it's nice there!
is it?
yes!
i know 
her mum works in the erm royal oak at ideford!
oh yeah!
yeah.
she does er catering there with that drunken old devil!
he er
what john isn't it?
yeah.
he was really horrible to one of matthew's friends!
he's sarcastic 
to everybody!
yeah!
he said he was really drunk and he really hurt his feelings!
he my friends we never go over there!
ha ha !
i think matthew er told him to bugger off i think.
do you want that last bit?
can't eat any more!
split it in half.
don't want any more of that!
mm mm!
. go on you have it!
good!
thank you.
he comes over ours at christmas and he does my head in cos he keeps on kicking me at the dinner table!
he's like a big kid!
can imagine!
i mean he never used to do, i mean he never even used to do food there!
the best you could expect was a doorstep sandwich!
yeah!
do you remember that?
except my mum does it now though.
yeah?
what sort of thing does she do?
ploughmans, soup erm sandwiches makes she 
general pub food?
yeah.
yeah.
she does toasted sandwiches, sandwiches
mm.
prawn cocktails oh!
everything, she does.
and john would be lost without her at the moment there!
sorry?
mum, i mean john would be lost without my mum at the moment!
mm.
oops!
and my mum got seven valentine's cards this year, i was really upset cos i didn't get any!
sorry?
my mum got seven valentine's cards this year and i didn't get any,i didn't even 
nobody got any this year 
she got seven did she?
did they, at school?
i didn't get one!
no.
ah, no i wasn't in a very good mood !
i didn't get any either!
mm!
i go i thought dad bought you one.
must have been for gail then.
i bought dad one.
he didn't buy me one!
why not?
well i didn't even realize what day it was!
when's erm
friday.
pancake day?
oh!
tuesday it's next tuesday.
ooh!
next tuesday.
mum do pancakes!
i think we're gonna have to come home a bit early next tuesday to make pan pancakes.
no wo no one cooked pancakes apart from dad.
he flips them and they go high!
i just 
that's next tuesday?
it's in march!
yeah, well it's changed isn't it?
it's ne not this tuesday but next tuesday.
yeah.
it will be in 
march the second, third.
no, march the th oh yeah it'll be march the third or march the tenth.
cos it's the day after we go back.
tuesday.
it's the day we come back
mm.
to school.
oh god!
do you go back on a tuesday do you?
mm.
yeah.
oh that's rather 
but why?
rather odd that!
it's a baker's day.
oh!
oh!
ha ah!
ha!
ha!
ha !
extra day off,ha ah !
daddy, how long do you get off at half term?
sorry?
how long do you get off at half term?
nothing.
mummy, how long do you get off at half term?
nothing!
i don't get 
ha ah ah ah!
anything paid at all!
nothing!
but that's gonna
no.
change i think from the with the we've got a staff meeting on the 
twelfth i think it is and we're gonna get such a bomb!
i don't think you'll realize it!
finish that off?
no.
do you want that one?
no.
you're bound to.
hello!
we want just a week's paid holiday!
you know, for his senior staff
jackie!
who've been there more than 
my boy!
we reckon we're
mm.
!
just entitled to 
you !
have
lug hole!
something, you know?
yeah.
mum, jack's dribbling!
oh jack, stop dribbling for christ's 
oi!
sake!
if you 
go on!
dribble then go outside!
go on!
go on!
go on!
that's horrible all the over the ooh that's revolting!now!
urgh!
look!
the dog!
is the, the cat the cat back there?
it was.
oh it's gone now.
oh 
mm!
this all looks very nice!
can i have one of your biscuits mum?
yes, help yourselves.
they still warm?
mind that cake!
no.
mind the oven!
here are!
do you want another biscuit?
yep.
they're really lovely!
help yourself.
mm.
erm, is rupert back?
whe where's rupert going today?
oh god!
jessica i do think that that 
i know, but when's he back?
not for hours!
oh god!
have to put i in that case.
no, i'm not!
oh !
find something else to put it in.
well your school bag's down 
jessica!
there by the erm
no it's not cos i just put it upstairs!
upstairs.
and the black
you're not taking that much stuff jessica!
!
did you put any
and the black 
erm 
take those two!
duffel that erm stacey gave you.
tha that's alright!
that's it.
take both 
and take 
those two.
the black jessica.
to put the school ba books 
yes.
in.
take your school stuff home 
it's alright!
oh yeah, i know what to do you know!
and use those two.
what?
had a fight over a stick!
in the park?
i mean a stick about this long!
you know really hard!
you know, not just you know end of it .
in, in they go it's ha!
ha!
hello!
hello!
this thing's is going all erm frayed look!
what?
oh the this iron's fraying on the end for some reason.
let me lo oh the lead?
mm.
i'll put a bit i thought it had always been like that.
no!
oh, put it through there.
you put a new piece on didn't you?
put a lead on it, yeah.
yeah.
so how could it all be like that?
cos i cut the end and everything to thread in there,.
i don't know what to do.
look for a job i'd say.
i do that every day anyway mum.
haven't heard from the council yet have you?
no.
it is still february mum.
yeah.
i keep forgetting.
you might as well go down there because you, you just might see something down there.
i always go down.
every day i go down!
and i 
he's got no intention of getting a job has he, at all?
really 
no he ne he never ever goes down!
i bet he doesn't get up till about, well it's eleven now i'll give him another hour and a half!
it's crap isn't it?
no, not really!
crap weather!
it's crazy!
it isn't raining is it?
just, it's not cold.
when it's raining that i find depressing!
don't you?
yeah.
especially if you've got nothing to do.
is curly working or not?
no.
he hasn't had a job for ages has he?
a no.
well there's no point in him working cos he just loses his
i jus i can't believe that that can be true!
i mean 
annie, annie works twenty four hours a we , annie works twenty four hours a week in this shop right and the , she claims family credit as well and i i ,we if adrian works all the benefits go under he has to 
yeah but yo 
earn something like two hundred quid a week to to match what they're getting now!
it isn't like that!
it is!
well yeah, er okay i can accept that but i think mentally
yeah.
you know, i think i mean, i mean he even to going back to college doing a couple of a levels wouldn't alter his benefit.
i mean, do something, you know!
yeah.
i could not live like that!
no i couldn't.
i'd go mad!
especially out there over that shop in kings dainton.
he's got his car, he's got jamie so he's not that bad!
he's got his son and er 
yeah but it's not mentally stimulating is it?
it's not!
er.
at least he's quite happy well i'll tell you that.
alright for six months but when it, it gets starting to think oh my god!
you know, i've done absolutely nothing with my life full stop!
i think i'll go up town in a minute i think.
go to gateways for me if you want while you're there?
eh?
go down to gateways for me.
and get what?
erm i want a jar of pickle
i'll write it all down.
and not on an envelope!
i'm running out of them.
well that's can you pay for a stamp for that for me please?
why haven't you got one then?
no!
gotta send it.
found this huge piece of paper the other .
did you?
just gonna see how much money i've got.
nor normal pickle?
mum!
well, the proper .
just normal sort of pickle?
yeah.
loaf of bread.
brown, yeah?
mm.
and, half a pound of cheese.
half a pound of cheese?
cheese, cheddar.
will that be already weighed up into a box will it?
well no,the they weigh it for you.
ah yeah!
oh!
there's a stamp there.
hello!
you coming down town?
are you?
as long as you don't whinge when i tie you up, alright?
and
what?
half a dozen apples if they're cheap
six apples.
in the shop.
yeah.
cheapest you can get.
well i don't wanna get hideous sick cox's, i'll get something decent!
you won't go and spend fifty nine pence a pound on an apple cos i shall kill you if you do that!
well i shall only spend a pound twenty four.
get rejects from dorset, wormed apples from somerset!
well which shop shall i get them from then?
eh?
you got a stamp there!
i know, i've given to you!
it's alright.
and twenty .
i shouldn't think you'd need all that.
most of it's just .
where do i get the apples from?
erm the shop in market walk.
and make sure he doesn't poo everywhere!
oh mum!
what do i do if he does?
you know!
pick it up in a bag
yeah.
and put it in the bin.
no it won't!
he's alright this morning.
don't you dare let him crap anywhere!
wa walk him back round the parked cars.
you're not allowed to poo in public places!
though in't it?
and they're 
it's not acceptable!
not buying .
you're not going to pieces of paper are you?
cos i would of thought, you would of thought that that was absolutely awful!
well it is awful but i don't know what you can do about it!
pick it up!
he didn't like it?
no, he's miserable but he can ge , he used to go ra ra ra and make noises .
do you know what rupert did to him once?
down the co-op?
he tied him to some trolleys!
trolley.
frightened the living daylights out of him!
he ran away and th we he thought they were chasing him!
that's absolutely horrific that is!
trying to get away from a trolley and it's getting his back feet!
ha ha ah ah!
now well, ha ah ah ah!
he had a poo as well.
where did he poo?
in the park.
you should pick it up!
no, no one saw anyway!
they've got doggy bins and everything!
i would of thought you of all people would have done that you know!
i can understand him not doing it cos he's a bit ignorant but not you matthew!
well i do it sometimes but
i think that's terrible of you!
ah, ha ha ha!thirty six.
there's no way they can tell it's .
i suppose there's nothing on television this afternoon sit down.
telly down .
don't you think he looks better after being o on that food now?
i haven't noticed any difference.
oh i have!
yeah.
his coat looks much better.
he's always had a good coat though.
well, not when he was ill you know that business.
it's a blooming shame!
i like those those little dogs, those little tiny .
battery's going off.
is it?
bad old one.
it's flashing anyway.
yeah but isn't that with er the voices?
it is isn't it?
if i speak loudly does it flash even more?
yeah.
that's right.
oi!
been down the job centre then?
no!
nothing at all?
not really.
i bet you that it's all grotty.
well .
where's rupert?
over with lee.
is this usual is it?
i would have thought i've washed and ironed every single one of your t-shirts there!
yeah?
i thought that
it's cold out there today!
is it?
freezing!
i thought that you were thinking of making a trip to bristol?
can't afford it this week.
not now anyway.
was gonna go and see sophie next week but i can't afford that really either.
and she can't afford anything for freebies definitely!
freebies?
well i mean any sort of food or anything.
she's said i'm welcome to come up.
yes i know, i know you're welcome to come up!
but she hasn't got many sort of major 
i don't expect anything off her apart from somewhere to sleep don't i?
oh would you starve?
starve?
expecting to cook me food!
well i should hope she would!
typical man!
expecting her to cook for you food!
well if i'm there and i'm a guest if she cooked for her and martin she can't just ignore me!
can she?
i don't think she very cooks for martin he's a
yes she does!
she loves to say she doesn't just cos he thinks like that but she does!
she's really adamant about not having children!
bloody hell is she says that now
i hope, i mean i 
she'll grow up!
it's horrible!
she sa ab she said no way!
like that.
well of course she will!
no, i know i mean
i can't see her just 
she's old enough now to sort of have thought it out really, isn't she?
don't you think?
yeah, but she will but she'll have right up until she's about thirty i expect.
thirty five you know.
it's only a isn't it?
i hope somebody does!
i don't wanna be an ancient granny!
nobody e , nobody has any girlfriends, nothing do they ?
you're desperate to be a granny aren't you?
i'd love to be a granny, i really would!
i would always be there for baby !
i'd love it!
but she's, they're absolutely adamant about it, you know.
it's just, cos she that er she's going to be everybody's favourite aunt!
no chance!
she isn't half a boring person in't she?
no i can understand her not having, not wanting kids for a few years but, can't you?
oh i can understand that!
oh yes!
that's her problem!
but i mean
what a tie down that is!
it's a
it's a tie down.
i know!
don't, don't have to tell me that!
i expect one's not that bad.
ha, ah ah !
ha, ah ah !
you've got one anyway, ah ha!
look vacuum!
the dough it's the dough boy!
ah ha, he's jumped through the ring .
eh, ah ah ah !
oh he's speaking to pussy.
don't, don't let him go out there he'll go berserk!
you can wave it on the wall.
she caught sight of the puppy somewhere.
don't whisper at him!
don't!
woof!
don't!
not there anyway.
oh he's going bare, bare .
ah!
he looked horrible!
i tell you what he looked like
under those
a bil , one of those .
it suits mm, yeah he does!
doesn't he?
his top bit goes furry or 
it's horrible!
yeah it's horrible!
makes him look really unattractive!
he sees another dog .
i know, sometimes his hackles come up with another dog don't they?
yeah, but he looks really scared they go, the whole back goes right up and he looks .
it's horrible!isn't he?
ha!
oh he's got bloody .
ha!
ha!
ha!won't it?
ah?
no he's dirty!
he's not, he's !
shall i get jessica today mum?
she's away in't she?
oh yeah!
having a wonderful time naval club.
why in't she at school?
half term.
do you wear this t-shirt?
which one is it?
what is it?
this, it was blue, i think, blue at one stage.
yeah.
oh no.
i think i might have this as well.
oh no he's dug up all the leaves!
at least i pay for it!
you didn't!
i bought it!
bullshit!
i got it out of my foster's tokens years ago!
!
mum, look at the size of his shoulders!
look, this bit here look!
bloody huge!
he's a monster!
he was lying on his back last night like that with his feet, you know how he does
yeah.
with his legs wide open
yeah.
and we measured his rib cage height of his rib cage down to here, and it one foot five inches!
he's got a chest 
yeah !
it's 
!
it's ridiculous!
well he's just mongey isn't he?
he's got 
a what?
a mongey , a mongrel!
oh weird!
he's got a big front and a miniature
look watch!
back end.
mum look!
so, too big jack!
but i think he's i don't think he's misformed at all.
misformed?
that's not quite the way to say it !
deformed.
deformed.
misformed !
he is!
you think he's deformed don't you?
no, i don't think he's deformed!
of course he's not deformed!
he's lovely!
very, very actually i think.
did you see him dive yesterday?
the bit where he like jumping on the lake they've cut away a bit of the platform so the only way you can do it is jump onto this bit of wood then fly, and literally he was like that, just going in mid air and landed right in the water!
he's nuts!
blinking !
bit cold for that innit?
no, it was gorgeous yesterday wasn't it?
yeah.
and it's very 
you and brian were loving it!
brian said not too much today matt,i thought bloody hell what do you think i am!
telling me to walk across!
is that what he said ?
yeah.
he's worse that i am !
both of you, you're both saps!
don't let him go in the water it's too cold!
that's rubbish!
dogs don't feel that!
at night see he can't leave him alone he sits there and he goes or something like that and jumps on him and gives him a i can't keep my hands off that dog!
ah ah ah!
yeah i'm terrible !
he's worse than i am really!
what's the fish for?
for tonight?
yeah.
what is it?
mackerel.
is he, he's not even awake and it's twenty past twelve!
i got up late today ten past ten i felt guilty!
i shan't go up there cos he 
unless he's pissed off right something like that.
eh?
when he lied down like that and he was pissed off
yeah.
not relaxed he's just
most peculiar.
yeah, like an s shape there.
what's the matter?
yeah like
then?
this house stinks doesn't it?
ah that stinks!
that 
i think it's still got
it stinks!
he waits for me to er go to bed now.
i've only gotta mention, yeah i've gotta got to mention bed i'm going to bed now.
oh!
do you want to go to bed?
and he goes and he's up in the bed, on the bed in a flash!
he likes it.
he soon comes into my old room cos he's gonna be straight up on the bed, right.
yeah , he likes, likes climbing on the bed.
makes him feel a bit comfy.
most dogs aren't allowed on beds.
most dogs aren't, some dogs aren't even allowed upstairs!
most dogs aren't allowed up upstairs.
he's allowed to go wherever he wants do whatever he likes.
too right!
so they should!
shouldn't they?
yeah i mean dog hairs rise anyway so
what do you mean, rise?
the hair it rises upstairs.
i mean i, you know friends said it was, oh god i wouldn't allow mine upstairs because of all the dog hairs!
oh well they go up there anyway.
so, but i don't know what it is, right, it's only a few bloody hairs!
he's actually allowed to do whatever he likes.
gets his own way as well.
do you want a drink mum?
no thanks.
good!
ah he must be ill, he's in the bed!
eh?not ill!
what's he in the bed for then?
just, well he fancies going to bed!
lazy shit!
he's only just got up!
matthew!
oh he's looking, a really fed up face on!
what's the matter?
looks like he ain't got any front feet!
i didn't know he had all those blankets 
how long's he had those for ?
two, four
what do you not like?
six six, eight, ten,
oh fuck.
you dickhead i was gonna 
you dickhead you dickhead.
nor do i.
you dickhead 
get a drink.
aye well 
my wish come true.
pray for my wish to come true, i need eleven p, have you got eleven p?
quid.
no p.
have you got a quid in change?
no.
pat have you got eleven p?
i don't stephen and if i did i definitely would lend it to you.
johnny old pal have you got eleven p ?
i lent gavin my money.
oh well.
mm?
sinead old pal have you got eleven p?
no i haven't got anything.
what do you call it?
the wizard of oz.
oh no that's dorothy sorry.
no that's dorothy, isn't it, the one that goes we were strolling along on moonlight bay, so you could hear the clouds singing you stole my heart moonlight bay.
on moonlight baby oh god ye gods.
aye well you can get the safest 
is it?
aye.
peanut butter and strawberry jam.
yes.
well it's stephen's favourite 
mm?
urgh.
you can tell, you can tell most people tomorrow, just don't tell be in.
who's your boss?
so it is.
wh what's doing now?
the only people that know are you, him,and claire.
so let's keep it that way folks.
okay 
danny danny don't forget that oh for god's sake danny
what do you look like?
let's just tell you what you look like, you came to me for a job you wouldn't get it.
well don't come in with the coat tomorrow please or after easter.
right.
was very impressive.
i can tell you definitely be pissed off today.
oh it was definitely a cracker, did you hear that one?
what?
colin says to him 
jesus!
for sakes!
for fuck's sake 
why?
och don't talk balls.
in where?
well what can he say like?
we, we didn't 
we didn't tell him to 
don't say that wasn't funny.
did you go to er ?
yeah.
you are going?
yeah.
are you not?
okay hang on.
if you're not going i'm not going like.
whenever i have my mind made up 
i'm as stubborn, stubborn as a mule like.
did he do it yesterday?
did he do it yesterday as well?
oh,
you know the only two songs i haven't heard that er that i know exist of theirs are prince and .
they're on the one 
the one e p is it?
have you got it on tape?
yeah.
have you got it on tape?
you coming tomorrow, no?
dee dee dee,
would you do me a favour?
get a record 
i just rea i mean i knew that i had heard of it then i realized .
i mean that just like.
oh kevin's gonna kill me you can't play it, you can't play it!
why can you not play it?
shall i get off at your house?
i'll only be sitting in the coffee shop till five past five anyway like so 
alright
no they're gonna give me the record 
how long will it take you to walk into town, ten minutes, fifteen minutes?
are you going to france tomorrow?
no.
definitely?
well i'll have to check it out first.
why don't you just go in, sign on and then go out again?
i know it sounds quite tempting.
oh excuse me.
oh you're a fat bastard oh you're a fat bastard oh you're a fat bastard, oh you fat bastard 
it's just play playing it without using, without strumming the strings.
can you do it?
can you do it?
the left hand have you got a minute?
which hand's left and which hand's right?
that's right.
that's right.
it's right hand fretting sir.
sorry.
thanks.
sorry right hand fretting, has to be with the three fingers.
yeah i know.
ah sorry.
well i'll go er willis avenue.
straight up past the
fire station.
do you like flotsam and jetsam
what?
flotsam and jetsam.
never heard of them.
dunno, sometimes it sounds a bit oper-ish opera-ish on it.
but like i fits in quite well.
your lawn looks quite 
it's quite nice suppose your gardener does it.
well he'll be pissed off all over it with football boots on.
yeah he will.
no i'll be alright here thanks.
burp great.
it's not really a burp is it?
it's sort of more like a urgh urgh
is that the only two that i haven't heard oh you off school today?
what?
you off school today?
half term.
oh last day last day 
yeah, yeah.
what did he do to his head?
why?looked really good.
where's the rest of them?
out back behind the wall somewhere.
we get off, when do we get off school?
we get off on wednesday so we do.
it's thursday.
thursday,
oh well
shut up.
thursday.
or did you, did you wait the bus and it went ?
did you have a good day off school then?
yes he did 
he just stayed around here and slagged me off, no?
oh well it was quite easy to do.
oh
see next year, about this time next year,
yeah.
around easter time erm would yous be able to take some person just to come and sit in your shop for a week out of our school?
who?
you see and they're asking for people who could ref who could, you know, give references to cos like put all these, all, down on these different things that you want like you know, say you want but then a lot of people just put down small business and management, something like that.
you'll end up with some real wanker like.
ah no then, no.
i don't mind if it's yous guys.
oh it wouldn't be me cos i'm, i'm doing it this year and i only thought of it too late
yeah.
and i'd already put my other form in like to er i, and i was raging cos like i could've got and sat in here for a fucking week 
well you still can if you want like .
no i have to go and, have to go to this 
no some other people were saying about that, you know, ah that they, you know that they were gonna put in for it but they wouldn't let them cos it was shop, you know, blah blah blah.
but i mean yes certainly if it was y if it was you coming down but i don't want 
it won't be me.
plonker that i don't know.
it wouldn't be me.
no, no, that's alright 
you've not talked to me all day and then it's that sort of thing.
well i could probably get somebody who would be into comics like and then that would maybe start you talking and then like, but he could still be an old wanker sure 
as long as 
what's this?
who's this?
i don't know who it is.
someone called raoul 
you mean raoul as in 
raoul?
friend of johnny's?
yeah.
no, don't think so.
is raoul english or something?
er no i just think his dad is and they've just picked it up from their dad, you know.
it's not the rhythm guitarist the bass player oh my goodness .
oh they've got a drummer as well 
a vocalist as well.
oh 
they must have a a lead guitarist or somebody who fancies themselves as a lead
yes 
and a drummer.
look at 
but i don't know who it was, erm just some guy come in and said to us do you mind sticking that up for us, no not at all.
sure thing.
you're not gonna ?
play in johnny's group?
no, well like i haven't learnt it, i can't play i can play up to a certain bit in the start and then i can play the rest of it like, it's just one i can't get it's just real annoying, i have the at the right pitch and i just 
no i can get the but i mean i can't go , i can go like and go and that's it.
i need to go 
yeah.
why?
just asking.
one of the just those questions you ask people like.
what do you eat for breakfast pat?
like it's one of those questions you ask people.
what year were you born?
that's another question.
no 
i had sugar puffs right?
do you eat sugar puffs?
yeah.
i used to eat those all the time, my mum won't buy them any more.
i remember gary, gary it was one of the first it was when he 
sugar puffs?
started working and he got one of his first pay packets he went out and bought a box of sugar puffs
one of the big five hundred gramme ones.
why?
i don't know.
cos he loved them like?
aye well i dunno but anyway 
i'd love to 
i hate 
i'd love to know why they call them sugar puffs.
five hundred in a packet right 
gee pat 
and he had about four bowlfuls and he was
oh tucking into his fifth when he went blurgh 
and he never fucking ate them again 
i know but i'd love to know why they call them sugar puffs
cos they're puffed up.
cos they're all honey, i know but they're honey.
yeah but 
honey monster.
bollocks there's honey on it, don't talk shit it's pure sugar 
pure fattening 
sixty nine.
sixty one.
sixty one?
sixty nine.
what are we talking about?
oh yes sixty two yes.
sixty two, no more than sixty.
sixty two 
you must be really dedicated in this shop.
ninety two even 
yeah!
yeah!
how embarrassing 
you're the same a you're just, you're younger than 
that's what i said paul the first time 
the first time you told me your age i went 
that's what i said, you know that?
i went no you're not, i thought you were taking the piss out of me when you said it.
no i'm not 
yes you do, you look you look younger.
oh you're so youthful paul.
oh i know 
he looks like ronnie,
here are the other two songs i can't play or i haven't heard.
and the prince.
they're covers like.
oh 
what?
oh tonight?
aye.
i'm going driving tonight.
why?
killer.
or any shop you, any comic 
oh it's brilliant!
i thought you were ?
ah well, in tomorrow like but i'm just going in till twenty past nine and then sign my name off and going home.
and i wouldn't even go in because i don't think my dad's making me go in except she kept me,and all behind because we didn't do our homework and she said right see me tomorrow,
why?
there's no difference is there?
it's grammar school, why?
bye guys.
cheerio.
see you.
bye.
cheers.
yo.
see you.
see you.
bye.
bye now
bye
bye now.
oh by the way, i don't think she'll ever go out with you if she's any taste at all.
how long have they been in here for paul?
oh jesus 
oh christ.
contact grab!
grab!
if you can play it,contact grab 
take the number down.
guns and roses?
where?
oh i didn't see that,
joint lead guitar!
is that the one where they go in 
the one with 
what did yous get him one for?
da er father's day present or something?
aye.
yep.
and i was upstairs see so i sat and i watched them.
hundred and two minutes each tape and i sat and watched them yesterday.
three of them.
red dwarf.
got all the red dwarf tapes.
oh whenever blake seven's out too 
how much was it?
i was standing there and i was going i had the two pound in my pocket like but there's no way i was giving her two pound so bitch 
bastard.
yeah, seen that 
and then for there's this thing treating people who'd ruined this guy's marriage 
did you tape it?
yeah.
the apocalypse and all the people atheists and one where ah the christians, christians over there please well i'm sorry to tell you but the jews were right 
er do you remember the one where ?
no, he'd gone up to the traffic lights and this cyclist sort of like cycled up, jumped off his bike and wheeled it round the corner so he 
yeah, he jumps out 
i like the one car park 
yeah he got trapped in a car park and he couldn't get out for ages and ages and then as he got out he crashed into another car.
ah that's, that's it there.
well did you see the one where he's getting changed 
what's that?
he was getting changed in the car and he put a brick on the pedal and all
yes, yes he was going to work and he put the brick on the pedal while he's jumped in the back pulling on his trousers and st st steering with 
and cleaning his teeth 
steering with his foot.
he gets into the back seat and he's got his feet over the fr the front seat steering with his foot 
ah that's the same one he's making a lunch or something in, in the park
yeah.
the bit where he's on the beach 
he's just down to the beach
yeah.
and there's this guy sitting sitting beside him, you know sunbathing and stuff, and er he doesn't know what to do 
oh the teacher told us this one.
he sticks, he sticks the, the 
trunks.
the trunks on top of his trousers, unbuttons himself and pulls them down, and he gets, he's er really, really awkward the way he does it and all the rest of it and gets, he finally gets his trousers off, pulls up his er trunks and your man gets up, pulls off his towel, gets out his white stick and
oh he, he went swimming one time and that was pretty good 
i can't remember what that bit was, i think he just stood on top 
yes he crawled, crawled to the edge of the 
oh that's right and then this wee kid got up and jumped off didn't he?
do you know that bit where he was ha looking over the diving board and stuff?
that was jonathan to a t.
we went swimming with jonathan the other night and he got up on the top board and sort of and he was sort of like hanging on to the bar like this looking over 
oh god, that's like.
and he couldn't do it and the worse thing was everybody in the pool had gone go on 
what, what happened was robert, rob and me shouted, robert and me were there and who was it, helen was there i think as well, his ex girlfriend we were going go on jon, go on jump and everybody in the pool started it go on jonathan 
and he couldn't do it, he was so totally embarrassed and all the rest of it, he had to get down and everybody was boo boo, chicken, chicken 
oh he felt so wet.
i felt so sorry for him.
can you do it?
mm?
no 
fuck, no way.
i can't fucking 
i went off the second board and i had to get out cos i felt sick.
and like i'm not afraid of the water like.
i used to dive off the first board
yes.
and then i hurt my back
i di i dive off the first board but i couldn't even jump or drop off the second board.
there was one time i dove in and i hurt my back, i sort of like keeled over, kicked well 
oh i know what you mean you went in like that and your back, your, your legs went like that there?
yeah.
ooh!
but i've jumped off the second one, i haven't dived off the second one.
no way.
i got up, i remember like i'd just i'd just learnt to dive off the first one like i was running down like, yes!
and i got up with the intention of diving off the second one and i went no!
jumped off it.
pete petey right?
i'm not joking, his leg his legs were about that wide right?
he wore those new shorts
yeah.
right?
so he's walking about, the shorts are this wide 
the rest of it's like this here he runs into the water and he's into the water like him and bobby used to
god love him.
dive off
petey and bobbie used to dive off the top board like 
aye.
head first.
yes.
he's a total wanker .
total wanker
i mean there's jody and all those like and they're a real dipstick, they have balls but that wee kid is just so unbelievably stupid like, he was just like 
who?
petey 
i know.
you just flip on your back like and
you get these jocks that get up there, big and they think they are so cool and then 
big fat massive hairy chest, hairy chest, tiny swimming trunks
yeah.
that is my seat by the way, erm 
hairy chest, bit of a sun tan, they've bee they were away last summer
hanging over the
oh like totally over, that's why he doesn't need to wear t too many swimming trunks cos you can't see anything anyway
runs along splash, doesn't even make it, make it round, he just and goes like this and then, and then lands in the water like that.
well this guy's jumped off the second board and done a belly flop
ooh fuck!
ooh 
and he he got up and he was totally, totally red.
it was totally red
oh ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, and everybody in the whole pool heard it just go everybody was going ooh!
oh fuck!
it was totally wild 
that pool that pool would be really good if it wasn't for the water.
why what's wrong with the water?
it's shitty.
ah it's fucking chlorinated to fuck.
is it?
there'll be dickheads and
i know it's right but that's a laugh i think.
you just you just watch them and all and you just 
i thought they were in every pool like, you can m even do it yourself without thinking about it if you want some people 
i don't start thinking about it cos i fart under the water 
well i'd, i,buy your poster
i i'm going down south next week and i intend 
oh paul we don't wanna hear your problems, buy the poster.
credit?
you'll be off work, i'll be off work 
when you get your test.
aye of course if i get the test .
don't, don't be going fuck mad and taking 
ah i've no intention of going fuck mad.
you know what happened on sunday?
cos there is so many people get their licence, bang they're out the door, in the car
bang 
bash it five minutes down the road, bang bang 
on sunday, sunday morning i was up 
was it that guy that crashed before?
yeah.
it wasn't his fault this time, i mean, i'm serious, it was, it was not his fault 
i can't believe this .
ah yeah
alright.
he's staying at my house.
he's staying at my house.
staying after at my house.
you can't stay?
can i not?
no.
i'm away till richard's coming down for me.
my daddy goes erm where will you be so i can in touch with you by phone laughing cos they were shouting at me and then he said to me and then i told him it wasn't and he goes so why do you go 
kill that.
what?
ah don't!
what did that wee fly ever do to you?
erm how much were your boots?
what?
your boots.
forty two.
what?
why?
cos they're lovely and i have a pair.
you can get better ones like from 
have you heard from home?
eh?
no.
so she wouldn't have died then?
in reality 
no she didn't die.
oh aye but 
th they were in vietnam right, and er 
was she er was she er 
good was she?
no.
it doesn't matter .
hey she was right, and she was in the bushes in vietnam and she took hold of these prisoners right 
i didn't know women were allowed to go.
and er just at the very end all you could see was her and your man, the hologram and he'd just been killed about five minutes earlier.
so he could have saved himself but he didn't want to.
the hologram?
aye.
and did he not save himself then?
no.
did he die?
but then how can go on.
cos he's still he's still a hologram.
hologram.
so that's how he died then?
aye.
well it's funny 
remember he tried to stab his wife 
i cried my eyes out at that!
at the very start of last night there was this guy water skiing 
big massive fat woman right, and she was just walking about this conference, you know where she's not supposed to be, and all these shoulders stab her right?
and then 
shoulders?
soldiers, right, stab her and they're all dying and then you see the head like it's just all dressed up in these things and it's arnie underneath it and he takes the head off
and it closes up again and he goes chew this or something blows up and then arnie gets 
no there's a scene in terminator, he's like wood and metal, in this new terminator 
yeah 
it is absolutely brilliant the way they do it.
what was that what was that 
well you'd run a mile 
oh aye.
that one er under the water 
the little mermaid no.
it is fucking brilliant,in a monkey suit.
oh a cartoon?
aye.
aye 
oh yes , yes!
cape man or something, oh what did you call it?
i, i was watching, i was watching 
did you ever see ?
i fucking love that 
do you?
the cu the music is totally shit but i love 
we were talking about it one day walking down the road walked up to this woman, went i fucking hate 
crap.
no it's good , do you watch that?
on i t v.
oh is it a big long serial thing?
no.
no.
oh that's a load of shit.
don't you like it ?
fucking english.
i know 
george if you've got any food then we'll, we'll put it on or whatever is happening then, then then by the time i get something to eat 
give me a lift 
teacher, oh jesus christ.
hi!
you can't.
i saw him driving the other day, tell you that?
yes.
you told me he couldn't drive cos he was 
traffic lights.
did you tell me that?
it was more like, he says 
he already said he could see red and green.
how the fuck does he know we can see red and green?
exactly.
what's red to you and what's red to me is a different thing.
oh look there's keg
where?
over there, at the , you can't see her she is behind that pillar and she's wearing a peach jumper and 
oh jesus christ!
and turn round i swear to god.
i'll give you matches whatever if you give me a light i'll give you a sweetie.
matches 
the er that's one of your bro or er how many of your brothers and sisters will be at home now?
aye.
that's alright, but i thought, i was sort of thinking if we're all going round your house, we could bring it round to your house.
well you can bring it round to my house 
sound.
will that be 
hi.
working hard?
yes.
ah ah ah!
don't get cross now.
this is your father speaking now so don't get cross.
what?
right, one two 
who the hell's that?
that's kink, that singing is kink.
i never list i've never listened to the tape 
who's that?
totally kink.
jon you dirty git 
what?
you got mud all over the bed, come and look at it 
what?
see all this mud, it came off your shoe.
don't put your feet on your bed again.
i didn't.
where did all this shit come from then?
do you think i do shits in my sleep that size.
spontaneous, it's just the same as any.
it's just tape it and then some wanker sits and tries to work it out.
that's his job,sits and works out for a living.
burt reynolds was on donahue last night.
and then i watched prisoner cell block h is it a whole series of them?
i've only ever seen one before right, i watched it last night and it's the same fucking one .
i was totally pissed off.
is it, is it all the same?
i saw one of those and it was about some punk in new york and it was 
mccloud?
oh totally fucking 
what?
mccloud, you ever seen that?
i think i have, i've probably seen them all like.
hi.
hello.
what you doing man?
tidying the shop, oh look you've put all things up.
wow!
so how's you?
ah alright.
off school thank fuck.
i'm off for cos i have got no work experience cos and she couldn't get me work experience in june and now everybody else is in work experience i get the week off.
so that's pretty hot,
so where's rick got to?
oh he's gone to the library to see i'll have to get 
great stuff.
so what's the trick to the solo on there?
i don't know like, some of it's just real hard, most of it's just easy anyway it goes in the big diddly diddly diddly bit at the end, just 
stuff's no problem but er once it starts and get the medium stuff done as well 
and there's the bit
so that when he gets up 
three of my frets on the bottom string that you can't bend up, i don't know what's wrong.
and you hit it and it bends up and it just dies and i've been sitting like, i mean i, i definitely don't think that it is anything with the way i hold it in like cos i've been sitting going and i just, just hit it and it goes ee, it just dies so you can't bend, that's on too.
och it might be i dunno it might be with you bending it that there's a bump on that string.
yeah on the, that's a thought,
i think 
yeah.
but th it's something wrong with 
it looks real good with 
that's what i thought, i thought you know fuck looks like a bloody comic shop for a change.
that's why i stuck all the posters here think the back issues loosening up a bit it was getting pretty tight.
nine hundred series.
well okay anyway i thought they'd ring here but couple of people, some, two women i thought it was belfast station 
new window display and everything.
the big guns and the big guns i found a use for the fucking thing.
that looks good actually i thought you'd be practising like mad on your day off.
no.
i was playing last night gotta learn this album i used to have ages and ages ago fucking .
i was really annoyed last night, i was getting really there was all this like down tuning and up tuning like all over the place that looks like bart simpson's dad
mm yeah.
got the hair
probably 
what is it?
going to tonight.
are you?
i thought you'd given that up.
no, back on again.
just started, aye.
ah swimming on monday nights and i'm doing training another three times a week 
i'd love to do th i'm really unfit, i mean like totally unfit.
sitting here i've got a pot belly and no fucking muscles 
that's what robert wants then, to do a bit of training and start like getting 
i'm not like overly fat or anything, i'm the right weight for what i'm, for my height like but i've just got a pot belly 
they've got a spare room in my mum's flat so i just took it over and put a weights bench in and, what else, a rowing machine and i started to do some weights 
i never knew you had all those.
have you ?
i've had those for years.
expensive!
sort of like what happened is that robert was sort of like, the three of us sort of chipped in and bought it between us and stuff like that you know, so that all three of us would get the benefit of it
yeah
but er i was the only one that ever used it and i used it about once or twice and then, like like, i used it for about
hi there.
six months steve.
about eight o'clock he says be down, be in for eight o'clock.
right.
after easter cos i got people have most go in work experience and i didn't get a place after easter like.
you dog!
revision but it's fucking 
aye he's a bastard so he is 
what are you doing?
physics a c theory
a bitch.
the worst like 
yeah 
a c theory sucks some of the questions you haven't done any mag magnetic stuff ha have you?
or er 
we've got, you know the 
all the worst stuff comes at the start of next year electro-magnetic induction, electron physics,stuff, all the shitty stuff i think 
course but 
oh aye 
eighty five points.
we've done er eighty, eighty something points i think, we've done the fucking 
i know but er that's what i mean, we get all the, a lot of them, about four of them topics worth, we're being given the equivalent of one of the topics you may be do next year you know.
you know you can get and circular motion and stuff all and ac, you know, it's that big.
next year, year's topic will be nuclear, nuclear physics, it's fucking massive,it's about a hundred topics 
seriously next year boy you're gonna get one major awakening, you think this year's bad for physics, wait to you start next year.
i, i, i understand all the work like and i'm sitting in class and i'm doing fine fuck all and then i come in and get a test like and he cracks up 
fucking 
who is?
me.
he come in laughing one day, look at this paul, look at this and he shows me this big long letter that this teacher had wrote on.
erm you see we were given this test, right, it was on gravity or something 
hiya 
hello 
and freaked out, right, er we did the test on friday, right and he wasn't in on the monday
yeah yeah.
we were going yo he's not in , came in the tuesday the reason i was off yesterday was cos i was so fucked off with your test , but he didn't say fucked off 
yeah.
erm erm and then he was going spare and he says these are the worst i've ever received in all the years i've been teaching, right?
and he went the next ones had better be better, right,the next ones were worse 
totally disastrous.
well i'm, aye he just hit the roof, i got fucking twenty five or something.
all of my test marks like paul eighty, seventy two er fifty six, forty three thirty three, thirty three, twenty five 
as well eh?
no chance.
i would rather even kill myself, and i do mean kill myself than do 
you're wearing your t-shirt?
no i haven't seen this for a while yet
had this one on for a few days.
yeah we were out last night.
yeah.
at least twenty people.
oh right you got chips, i thought you got i thought you got gravy and a burger 
all donations will be accepted.
fuck 
where?
no
never.
take your ticket back sensible people would like.
no i'm not sensible, i'm even i'm even less sensible than people who didn't take a ticket back.
hasn't he lost it ?
yeah.
i lost 
where you there?
him and gary, over the fence.
was it you went over the fence with gary?
i remember seeing you inside.
well like i, i was with gary, gary 
no i went off in the car with they climbed over the fence.
posers.
no he, he lost the ticket.
oh i lost the ticket 
gary definitely got the like.
remember he walked out the lost.
what?
remember he waltzed out in the ?
everybody was laughing.
who said i had a chip?
i got a pasty i had a pasty so i did.
well i just, i just get my pay and then i go and fucking blow it all.
aye sure they are nice now fuck off.
it's alright steve, we'll just start now,
just turn it down and then 
oh right .
this is quite a scandal.
aye, scandalous
put them back down and 
there's no way they would fit my record player.
you've already got it.
i haven't got it.
you bought that the other day.
you bought that and 
but i didn't buy it.
that's right, i did buy it but i forgot to collect it, that was what
think so?
well it's a ninety nine p pack.
aye.
singles.
.
how are you?
fine, thank you.
i've got a 
find your 
headache, but
surviving?
i feel a lot better.
oh well.
i went for a walk out this morning but i just couldn't stand it.
no.
it's no good i'm gonna have to go out for a breath of fresh air.
i'm better going 
do you?
but i've got to be honest with you you know.
no
so he says i'm going out 
i said oh i feel i'm going out for half an hour that's all.
yeah
i can't see the pleasure you know.
so you seem a lot better 
got a lot of washing to do lie down 
yeah he'd like that.
yeah, he'd like that.
i know but i thought 
so i've bit busy with other things anyway.
i thought what i'd do was i'd have a bath, i thought i'd put all the back in the fridge 
yeah.
and i've gotta put that erm on tonight as well.
yeah.
so that might be as well.
yeah.
see i don't feel as i did last night but it's still there, you know i just take some more tablets like, you know.
yeah.
but er
nearly getting rid of it 
but i've really cracked it and it's bloody awful!
it does
no 
oh aye, it does.
really cold, really, it's horrible!
we didn't do him any good at all.
telling me he got six points for a driving convic for er speeding conviction 
halfords i should think
oh right!
when he got erm 
oh 
smell it.
see if it smells alright 
got any 
oh 
we have to that's why 
aye 
mm
too much 
i got your er table things.
they do them in packs of fifty but in 
oh 
a split pack i got sixty.
that should be enough, shouldn't it?
oh
or did i get seventy?
i think i got seventy just to be sure.
i thought sixty 
oh alright.
that's alright.
was enough so i got seventy 
oh right.
cos there's only fifty 
yeah.
so i got seventy.
as i said, they do, they must do them themselves and sell
oh right.
they've got a well in that shop.
oh have they?
yeah.
it's all bricked up.
what else you've been doing?
oh i've done a bit of drawing.
you wanna get your hair cut while you're there 
yeah.
yeah, i ought to go and get changed 
yeah, well don't stand about 
yeah, that's alight.
i'll get 
oh yes.
changed.
i'll just leave them ticking over then?
yeah.
i won't be long.
yeah, okay.
just go and get myself changed.
yeah, i mean you see works' vans all over the place regular.
yeah.
naughty boys!
i never thought about that.
ha oh.
not if they keep his licence.
no.
speeding.
dangerous driving.
dangerous driving cos he made the old woman give over and overtook somewhere totally stupid and probably find he had no brake.
he was slowing down anyway!
what are we gonna do?
it's spitting and spotting innit?
yeah.
fancy having another cup of tea?
yeah.
that's if you look at it, like, you only get two chances at speeding now.
mm.
which is harder than it used to be.
must've been four then wasn't it?
yeah.
three points 
like you get four gos.
yeah, that'd be right.
get one more go than you used to now you get one left.
tightened up on that, haven't they?
mm.
don't half your er insurance now, don't it?
you get
yep.
a speeding doesn't, never did anyway, bother them.
no.
not unless you had a dangerous driving or something with it.
but er losing your licence always has bothered them, hadn't it?
mm.
that's always cost you.
is there?
a very old granada
mm.
way back
aye.
ah, yes it is 
yeah.
yeah.
probably buy 
hundred quid.
hundred quid 
yeah.
aye.
and he had a dangerous driving or a speeding i think it is
mm.
horrendous insurance bill 
he says i can't afford scrap.
cost him more.
cost him about six or seven hundred quid a year.
cheaper to buy a blimming er cheaper to insure a car wouldn't it?
mm.
oh
no matter what he gets, it's always over five hundred quid cos he's he's 
yeah.
lost his licence in the past and you know, when he was a kid like
mm.
and all that
takes a long while before they forget about that, doesn't it?
yeah.
making himself an extra five hundred pound a year for er having been a naughty boy when he was a teenager.
mm.
that's what it's about now, innit?
yeah.
it's all the
he is actually quite sane now though.
yeah, well it's like this fellow that got done for speeding.
when did he get done?
er thur no wednesday.
sat there watching them catch him up he didn't see them before they got him stopped like.
saw them catch him up coming along with all their blue lights thinking .
they'd been in er garage at bottom.
mm.
aye.
we'd had a little car before he got there.
he said are you speaking to the no, no,around town he says, i don't mind doing a bit more, you know, out and about not much about they just sat in the traffic, you know.
mm
but erm so had it been a foxhalls, something about a minute no, he said only for about a mile, that was it.
i said oh, about forty seconds and he sort of looked.
i says well, at sixty you do a mile in a minute.
so i said if it's only for a mile it's going to be well less than a minute at eighty, presuming you were doing more than thereabouts and er that was it.
but the car, he'd er he says oh that was funny he says, i blew past him, popped into fourth, i blew past him real easy going up the .
come out at foxhalls at forty, i think he did.
he can come through foxhall like and he, he'd had to speed up he says and then he says he didn't carry on, like.
he hadn't been doing and er reckon he and er think i'm and that was it so right been driving since he was nineteen 
two or three months ago, i think it was.
i remember him saying once before i don't, i don't know what and er he says it's only a fortnight ago since you know .
you get done for, pulled up for speeding or parking or something and you can pay your own fine .
so i went home, anybody gonna pay me fine?
he says i am gonna cop it off me mother cop it of his mother.
you're always going too fast!
i told you before!
he says me dad al me dad was always speeding he, he used to go mad!
mm.
slow down.
yeah obviously watching wasn't, wasn't watching his mirror very hard.
he hadn't seen copper trying to get him caught up, i wonder how much he was using mirror when he was overtaking people?
mm, yeah.
whether he was just watching what was coming from the front.
mm saw him coming have to get it cos neil's mum was cross about it.
oh well he was only just finding out what the rules were.
there was a gang of us chatting with him.
i come up with six points.
that made his day.
he says have i got a fixed penalty?
i says only got a pink form if you've got a fixed penalty.
know somebody who got one, like.
no, only a bloke i've never seen one had one.
yeah, that'd be richard.
mm only he's got to take his licence and insurance in.
as to what happens now he says i've to go to magistrate's court so it's just beginning to sink in that it's gonna cost him some brass and it's going to be serious.
one of them there was of the opinion who could quite easily lose his licence for it.
like he got done 
what he do?
run a chief constable over?
no!
no, he got done for speeding.
he was over the, over the limit and had a small quantity of drugs with it.
don't think he'd actually taken them but he had as a 
mm.
possession.
they did him about eight hundred pounds in motoring offences
aye.
phew!
speeding while slightly over the limit it was.
him having speed having, having speed .
oh god!
mm where's today?
dunno.
he started to come over, didn't he?
yeah.
they don't come any worse get a cup of tea in between, weren't we?
mm.
i don't think it would've bothered us when it was spitting and spotting if we'd actually been out there, would it, it's just setting off in it.
aye, yeah.
blue sky!
i can see a bit of blue up there.
today?
no 
if you were off to do something and being mucked around for the day, innit?
mm 
took my a long while ago.
not surprised to see them now.
only ran out a month ago!
just as well so late i've been waiting for to come.
i got some here come in this morning she says, they ran out beginning of september last year.
we hadn't thought about it.
i thought i was late.
mine have been in, oh, i don't know!
a good month!
innit?
a slightly bigger like a fish box
or what?
lobster pots making a smell.
yeah, don't, i know name when it come up like that.
anyway we can sort the problem because you'll take them back a won't you?put them outside your house, creating a smell they were playing up.
pretty fair stack of them i should think, wasn't there?
mhm.
don't know if the son's got out yet.
been doing time.
aye.
i don't know 
they didn't catch him 
he had an argument with a kid, two or three years ago
aye.
and er they set off in hot pursuit.
it was in back of a pick-up.
driving through with a shotgun shooting the guy 
still in the back of a pick-up shooting over the roof, like?
yeah.
oh!
they didn't get him for that one?
blimming good job!
no, they just got him for beating somebody.
bloody good job.
you'd think after that one they'd have thrown the keys away for that.
mm.
the kid hadn't done much 
get an extra two years for missing.
the kid hadn't done much, i mean it was nowt serious .
you know i had a moving traffic accident 
yeah 
wasn't trucking there, you know or owt like that.
no sense of humour.
got brought a pushbike wheel the other day.
can you get the cogs off that?
why?
well they go a lot better on that bike of mine.
i don't think so.
oh pity.
so what you've done to bend the wheel?
i haven't.
the gaffer knocked somebody off their pushbike, had to buy him a new wheel and some compensation 
scrounge the wheel!
how do you get them off?
he says you go to a pushbike shop and get special tools.
ring spanner things with the
mm.
keys on the outside pumps and things on it to i wouldn't bother.
a new set of back cogs for bike's only about seven quid.
a brand new set and they come with the ra with the, erm free wheel and everything all in like, just screw them on.
go to a pushbike shop they whip them off and whip them on for you you buy, you know, if you go out and buy one then just take wheel with you they'll stick them straight on.
mm that fellow don't go to the police.
lucky to get away with having to buy him a wheel compensation 
unusual innit.
it's very expensive that's why it's unusual.
sixty nine ninety nine.
is that all right?
it is done isn't it?
why have you got that on your head.
what's it doing take it off.
oh yeah.
take it off 
mm.
take it off i don't like it, take it off 
what?
what's wrong with you?
what?
what?
he's bloody mad, he's potty, off his rocker.
where did you get it?
get what?
the thing.
well why 
well why do you need it, why do you need a towel?
why do you need a towel.
why er why 
game.
mum and dad's got it.
come on mum.
go get in the blooming bath.
why?
i'll rewi rewind that actually heard what you say, you must be very naughty and nasty thing to be to your son.
i can't have a sweet then.
well you're not give me a sweet an all.
should give me a sweet you know.
you should.
you're gonna turn it off because i wanna tear you off a strip about something.
me?
yeah.
why?
what are we talking about?
mum what's hamlet about?
pardon?
what's hamlet about?
hamlet?
yes.
i don't know much about shakespeare, the only play i've seen is romeo and juliet and a midsummer night's dream.
to er see rome and juliet.
mm.
and i think i need to make it up.
when is 
i dunno.
well you better find out then.
what do ya mean i alw i'm only saying it cos i got 
well no if you can go.
you give me the money for it?
if it's within reason as i assume it will be.
five pounds.
that's okay.
w would it make much difference for you lending me the money.
not a lot.
well there's a quite a bit of difference between five and fifty isn't there and the one thing is for your educational needs and the other i'm so convinced about.
well
yeah.
i thought a computer 
no, but i know that you're dying to have a computer, and if money was no object, then we probably wouldn't hesitate in lending it to you, but really and truly at this moment things are tight and we can't afford to commit ourselves with things unless it's absolutely necessary.
well 
and that's it, i mean i've made it as plain as i can.
that is it and i hate it when you keep on and on nagging.
i won't go and see romeo and juliet.
well don't go, it's not my fault if you don't pass your exams.
all right.
did you watch that animated version that you recorded.
yeah.
does it give you the gist of the story?
it,half an hour long.
well i think it's longer than half an hour.
they probably should
an hour at the most.
given you er erm
the film is about hour and five minutes.
you can probably have a video of it as long of another version.
well it's does help to see different versions because you see that different people interpret the 
why do you 
mm?
well it depends on the people who are producing or directing or whatever, so it's all got different ways of doing it.
when i was studying i went to open air theatre and i saw a version there on christopher er what's his name that chubby fellow with the glasses christopher biggins that's it.
he was playing puck and when i went to see the company doing it well they had a completely different way of doing it, they wo they did it really like er a dec you know the the mechanical play, i don't know if you know a midsummer night's dream.
they did it in a completely slapstick farce way you know th the men who were dressed up women they balloons and had rosy red cheeks and wigs and things, it was quite different.
how they 
well that's it, when shakespeare wrote a play and the text has survived and , but the way of of joshing the people on the way they do it is different every generation and even most of the people in the same generation would would have a different way of doing it.
okay.
there's a comedienne erm she apparently was born in wales.
mhm.
two ton tessie o'shea that's her.
two ton tessie?
she yeah, that's her her nickname, cos she was quite big and she played the nurse in romeo and juliet in the season on stratford on avon and she did it using a welsh accent because she thought shakespeare, having coming from quite near the welsh border country might well have had might well have had a welsh nurse.
so it didn't matter that romeo and juliet is set in italy.
mm.
she did it as she would have thought shakespeare would have known people and things, you know, she did it like that.
mm.
and i remember amanda seeing a video of romeo and juliet 
and what struck me was that the costumes were all sort of like you see portraits of elizabethan dress.
now i don't what italy and those middle ages would have been like, that the sort of clothes that were worn.
mhm.
but the clothing in that film struck me very much as being like elizabethan dress.
yeah, i mean now plays of shakespeare and they're wearing modern dress like those worn at richard the third or something and they're wearing well either first or second world war uniforms.
yes.
it was very different then.
yeah, well it's just different directors have different things they want to emphasise in a play and if they want to bring something home or they think that using a certain well like say the way the people are dressed and everything will will have more of an impact, you know will 
one thing i was wondering about you know they they talk about erm in shakespeare's works is the language the words he uses, the the sort of poetry of it and the symbolism that's used.
erm do they talk about that at all in your english literature 
yes.
do they show you how you can learn about this, there's a book you know the book i bought you it's got notes in it.
does that help with it?
i suppose 
pardon?
well you should do.
and what about i bought some revision books and things study aids or something for amanda for her english literature 
well i bought them for amanda and she was doing romeo and juliet.
so if you look in those you may find there's some help there.
yeah.
come in, good morning.
hello, well what's your mum been doing to you this morning ?
.
well she's just after the 
freeze her, freeze her tongue.
having the flu, near a fortnight ago now, she's on these pills and she's as bad as ever, and not sleeping again.
she's finished them now, she 
she's finished those .
let's have a look and see what you've one to your your poor old inside.
dearie me.
driving your mother up the wall?
are you?
has your mum been bad to you?
no?
have a wee look at your nose first.
better.
throat now.
stick your tongue right the way out now .
yes.
have you got any swollen glands in your neck?
yes, they're up.
okay?
mm 
it's
it's taking awful long doctor,.
oh well it's, she's got sinus after this flu.
it's er just what's been happening to a lot of folk, sinus trouble.
do you like nice medicine or do you prefer those?
don't know.
you're not bothered ?
she'll say that and then give you the 
horrible stuff.
in a bottle.
er i can put it in, in a bottle or i can give you tablets.
in tablets.
you prefer tablets alright then.
now this is this quite a common thing after the flu to get a problem.
most times it's both but it's mainly the the left hand side with jenny.
the skin from here's swollen right 
mhm.
across and it's touching that hole in the middle and she's getting all blocked up and the stuff's running all the way down the back of your throat, that right?
and you're coughing all night, keeping everybody awake?
aye, she doesn't bother but us in the next room, ah,bother us .
oh right, right, just so it's just mum and dad we're .
oh i need some money.
i want to believe it.
now one of these in the morning and one at tea time.
twice a day, for the next week.
one, two, three, four.
tell your mum she could be kinder to you, she's got to for 
even though she's already.
right oh, okay, bye mrs ,
right 
cheerio now.
up and call me now a little music as well we have on the show we have a video from elvis to give away in the second half of the programme and star guest this afternoon is mary whitehouse.
oh ho ho steeley dan and erm reeling reeling out the thingummybobs.
hello that's a nice way to start it isn't it?
good morning good afternoon whatever you like to call o never mind you know the number.
now er we're going to start this morning talking about animals.
more specifically why we're so cruel to them.
britain must be an animal erm a country of animal abusers looking at the statistics.
why do we hate animals so much?
if you have a view on that o nine o four six four one six four one and i'd like to hear from you all you have to do is pick up the phone and give me a f a call now sorry.
did karen say to somebody on that thing did i hear her say, what are you on?
she looked at me and said that when i walked in this morning.
what are you on?
i didn't like to tell her is was phylisan but there we are.
anyway erm we've been hearing on this programme recently of course that er people are against hunting against fishing er they say it's cruel.
but they are willing quite willing apparently to give and receive pets as presents and millions of them end up getting abused neglected and destroyed.
every year we see that doleful little puppy on the television screen and every year thousands of people give pets for christmas.
the r s p c a have to pick up the pieces and they've launched a campaign to try and stop it and joining me now is alan.
is this alan oritt, alan?
correct yeah.
ok you're the superintendent for the north east of england that covers this area too.
i'm the chief superintendent that covers the the north east of england yes.
ok.
so you're the big boss are you?
one of them.
one of them.
have you er polished your brass today got it all ready to talk to me i hope you have.
now sorry alan i've got to turn you up a bit you don't mind do you?
no not at all.
it won't hurt there we are that's nice ok.
now alan, first of all er have we learned anything do you think over the years or do we seem to be getting worse?
sadly the things seem to be getting worse.
er we the society try our very best to get over the message to people just before christmas.
please don't give a pet for christmas.
but unfortunately er it seems to fall on many deaf ears and we the society as other many charities who deal with animals are left to pick up the pieces.
why is it it seems to me also, and i may be totally wrong here, but it seems people who are least likely to look after themselves are the ones who want to have animals?
i mean you see them walking around particularly people who go for the big dogs, you see them walking around with a big thick necks, the tattoos, the er the boots and the jeans rolled up.
well i think that's a little bit to do with a bit of macho image.
erm and er perhaps it's the owners wanting to look rather big.
unfortunately they don't think before they get the pet that you've got to look after it.
it takes 
but an an 
time it takes money.
another thing is of course it's all pets it isn't just dogs and cats.
that's right yes.
i mean people have er er budgie or er er er another sort of bird and they think it doesn't need any looking after.
that's right.
er just before christmas you see people think that buying a christmas present er that's easy.
once you've er got over the newness of it the the the thing can be put in away in a drawer can be put back in it's box.
but with an animal it's for life.
er you've got to look after it.
you've got to devote a lot of time to the care and attention that it requires.
i i heard the other day what i thought was one of the best advertisements not to have an animal for christmas very emotive, er i think it was for the r s p c a, and i i'm told i don't think you've heard it but it b basically it's it's er the sound of a er well it's a human pretending to be a dog really and saying you know, well this is nice my my er family have taken me to the vet, i didn't think i was ill but never mind.
oh here comes a nice man with er an injection.
ah perhaps they're going to give me some vitamins.
yes.
and it goes on and on like this until the voice is erm, i can't feel anything any more.
yes it's it's it was one of the er advertisements or programmes that went out on radio er again this is why i've been trying to get over to people the sad things that have to happen to animals.
erm we hate putting animals to sleep.
in fact it was the society's policy now that we won't put animals to sleep unless there is an extreme er cause for that the sick, diseased.
erm and we're attempting to try to get over to people please please think before you get a pet.
why is it that in the north of england, particularly in this region of the north of england, we seem to be worse than anywhere else?
i i don't think you are.
now i've spent seventeen years in hartlepool and yes that er 
they hate monkeys in hartlepool did you know that?
found a honkey they monkey 
i wasn't going to say anything the kirkham hotel.
they hung it.
er yes and there's one hanging behind their door.
er the thing is that the people in the northeast yes er there is a lot more work done up there by the society but you know since i've been down in horsham i have found that the northeast is not alone.
there are many other areas in the country where animals are seriously abused.
the northeast isn't the only place.
mm.
ok thank you very much indeed er chief superintendent.
and pa pat i don't think i don't hold out any hope at all that people will pay any attention they will go they'll see a little puppy somewhere they'll say, oh that's lovely we'll buy that for tommy er, and then tommy will abuse it totally and er they'll say, well the dog was a a waste of time it didn't work properly and er didn't know how to er how to look after itself.
may i just say that the majority of people will care for their animals but it is those people who buy, we have s er cases where erm people will turn up on christmas day and say to their elderly relative, we bought you a puppy.
the elderly relative hadn't didn't want a puppy.
never ever wanted a puppy because it makes them a captive person
mm.
they've got to look after something.
and this is where the society is called in er to look after that puppy.
or just after christmas usually between christmas and new year.
we're called to waste ground, behind pet shops, a any place to pick up boxes of unwanted puppies, kittens that have obviously been er planned for selling to people er before christmas.
good alan thank you very much indeed.
you're very welcome.
let er let's hope it'll mm won't be like that er mm this er this year.
now he says deep intake of breath don't have a puppy for christmas.
do as i do have turkey instead.
i'm playing this one because i like it.
it's a little a little fresh cajun music from new orleans from the and i can say that er that's why i'm playing it really.
o nine o four six four one six four one any calls about dogs or er any other sort of animal you want to give us a ring call us now.
which er er probably rude i dunno it's just .
er b b c radio york you are not in the south of france but as it is persistently snowing around the county at the moment i thought you know a little french flavour.
was it the beaujolais nouveau wasn't it this week was it?
everybody seems to be nodding around here i thought it was thursday it was wasn't it?
could anybody bring us a bottle down here you know because that would be nice wouldn't it on a on a cool saturday afternoon here as we sit overlooking the grand metropolis of york.
it would be nice to have just a little swig of the erm of the new grape.
has anybody tasted it?
i haven't tasted it anybody taste give me a call.
i cos quite frankly i have never heard such an exciting r s p c a man as that last one so i don't expect to get much response to that.
er so let's talk about the, can't hear can he he's not up in this area?
no he doesn't know does he?
er stuff it.
ah anyway so erm i don't think anybody's bothered about er fish and chips arrived have they?
everybody's in there.
thing about this programme it is so it is so crucial to everything that goes on at radio york while it is happening, they eat in the other room that's how much er interest there is they eat in the other room.
tour buses around york.
should they be banned?
should we get rid of them?
is york a big enough city to have them?
you know the open topped buses where they go round they hold up the traffic.
i know the tourists are very important to york but for goodness sake it isn't a huge city can't they walk round?
why can't they walk round?
i think if we got rid of all those open topped tour buses in york, traffic would be a lot easier.
what do you think?
give me a call you know the number o nine o four six four one six four one.
you can ring now.
you can ring about anything you want actually.
anything you feel like you can ring i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm really you know.
shame of the killer oh no i don't think we'll do that er look through the sun see if there's anything interesting erm in there i've got nothing in the ewbank .
boxer chris ewbank worth around eight million is moaning that he's got no money.
what has he done with his money?
what has got he didn't give me any.
oh he's bought a big house has he?
ok.
usual sort of sex, drugs, rock and roll as you get in the papers on a saturday as well.
or is he the best dress man too?
chris ewbank is the best dressed man.
that'll upset jonathan ross he always thought he was.
er o nine o four six four one six four one.
anybody who can hum by the way the er theme to the television programme ivanhoe and i would be interested to hear from you as well.
now as the united nations doesn't have enough on its plate dealing with the problems on earth and obviously they're er they're there at the forefront of everything that happens .
action is being demanded to track down possible visitors from outer space and this is serious.
a small group demonstrators have staged a protest outside the u n headquarters in new york calling for an end to what they say is a cover up over the existence of u f os.
one of the organizers, michael luckman, says president clinton is scared to acknowledge that superior beings do exist.
the united states er government is afraid as are other governments to admit er to their people that there is a higher form of life.
obviously if the u f os touch down that would mean they would be charge and not bill clinton at the white house.
okay well er i i figure that there must be quite a number of er extraterrestrials around around north yorkshire and i thought it would be quite nice actually if er if there are any extraterrestrials listening at the moment they could ring in and we could have a chat.
so if erm if if you yeah yes e t e t phoned when what do you want?
i'm not even speaking to you because of that flipping letter.
i mean i just noticed it i read, sorry karen walked into the studio totally uninvited through a red light.
that's a particular no no i mean you know for goodness sake can't we av can't we actually ob observe studio discipline?
what you doing?
just shutting that up a bit.
that's my knob if i want it open i'll leave it open.
don't flatter yourself.
there we are you see.
just smutty mind haven't you really.
er the individual responsible for this this is your letter from the er director of er the officers of the director general's broadcasting principle assistant dalek to the director general.
get bert on the phone i want a word with him now.
come on you lot you know where he is get him on the phone i want to talk to him.
the individual responsible for this unacceptable behaviour shall remain nameless protect his listening and viewing ratings suffice it to say that his name suggests that he is capable of making a big splash.
is this the sort of person that's running the b b c?
i don't believe he wrote this.
erm likes to spout a lot and is never happier than when he is chewing up all the small fry in the world .
this is .
the d g joins me in wishing you every success in your future career.
you're destined for big things obviously.
i wondered whether you were erm i wonder whether you were for the bullet or not?
no it's you.
oh it's me i see.
is traffic ready?
yes.
are you sure?
honest.
oh good.
we're not going to make a cockup like we did last week are we?
we're going to do it nicely nicely 
yes.
sort of flow into it.
professionally.
professionally all right.
actually i've i i i'm i can't do it now but at the next the next traffic i'm going to liven it up a bit for you.
okay.
so it's it's going to be nice but er you will enjoy it okay so if you hang on you're not very loud there actually you talk a bit louder cos 
talk a bit louder like that?
is that better?
could you talk a bit butcher as well for goodness sake i mean it's a yes 
butcher oh i'm sorry oh dear.
it's an important it's an important 
bit this traffic because there's snow falling all over the county there are going to be people erm in all sorts of er er problems .
it's stopped now.
what?
it's stopped now.
it has it ?
was snowing yes.
i wonder if anybody would like to ring in and talk to you?
well,
i don't imagine they would for one moment i doubt it no.
anybody want to talk this fe where are you at the moment by the way i know 
me?
you're not here i mea are are you in london or where ?
no i'm in leeds.
are you?
yeah.
tell me they keep you in a garage locked away is that right.
that's about the size of the place yeah.
okay we can't do this i don't like it you know talking to the on the programme we don't like it at all.
memo could you not mention the producer quite so much nobody out there knows who he is.
i'm going to actually tell everybody who everybody is later so there'll be no trouble.
right, now stand by because i'm going to give you a big build up
right.
and i've got a and then oh this my paper here hold on.
b b c radio york oh no hang on sorry i got that wrong.
i i start 
you do the jingle first.
do i put no i do a time check.
all right then.
okay i go like this don't butt in okay.
it's twenty seven minutes past twelve, b b c radio york the station that's always first for travel.
we're looking at the roads er for north yorkshire this saturday afternoon.
on the a one in the bedale area there's still a mobile lane closure in operation on the north bound carriageway.
that's between bedale and catterick at the moment and slight delays are possible there.
also on the a one in the leeming area the inside lane of the south bound carriageway's closed at holby grange for emergency gas repair works and delays are likely as a result there.
in selby there's a demonstration taking place this afternoon it starts at half past one and will go via barlby road and scott road and some traffic delay delays are likely as a result.
also in york today traffic near to the knavesmire could be slow due to an event taking place there.
in the ripon area weekend roadworks mean the road will be closed as it passes under the a one bridge delays are likely as a result.
at stockton on forest stockton main bridge over the a sixty four is closed for resurfacing work through to six o'clock on monday morning.
and finally in the thirsk area there are no further reports of snow on the high ground there but some moorland routes may still be a little slippery.
danny savage a a roadwatch.
oh very nice danny very nice.
this is were i pull this up and go .
i'm not supposed to talk over the singing bit am i?
no.
yeah.
i'm sor danny i am sorry.
okay next time, an hour's time .
all right?
bye yeah it'll be good.
okay.
bye bye.
bye bye.
danny savage with the er the traffic.
now the the trains the twelve twenty eight aberdeen isn't going to leave until twelve fifty four er let's have a look anything else er liverpool twelve thirty eight middlesborough edge hill er no leaves on the line but you know you don't you never know the er er er i don't understand that the thirteen eighteen what's that?
what does sar scarborough i suppose that is?
gla go ge gar ge ga has the computer gone mad?
yeah i'm sorry but the computer's gone mad.
stay at home in front of the fire and listen to radio york.
ha ha.
oh that was slick.
okay now er garth brookes my favourite country singer at the moment and er your chance to win this elvis video okay you have to ring in we're giving this away first you have to ring in and tell me and tell me the next word no i can't do that i can't no i can't do it's too easy okay.
all right tell me er complete the sentence of this of this particular hit song that elvis er had and it's difficult all right.
there were three words in the don't ring yet there were three words in the title i'll give you two you have got to give me the last one.
it is difficult it is difficult i know all right?
o nine o four six four one six four one this is it.
ready?
the hawaiian wedding okay no y you can't have got .
there are three wo don't answer them yet.
don't let the them ring for a bit.
the hawaiian wedding now there's a word there missing i wonder if i wonder if you can erm if you can guess that if you are the most entertaining winner you will get this elvis video.
aha.
garth brookes we shall be free i love it i love it i love it.
o k o nine six four one six four one very few calls out there at the moment i mean er.
noel is there hello noel how are you?
hello i'm fine thank you.
what are you on here for?
because er because i was invited on to speak about current educational issues 
oh that's good i couldn't you see it's very difficult for me you know i have to look up there i can never distinguish one one one call from another.
right.
do you have a tit do you want me to your a title do you have er?
i'm press officer for north yorkshire national union of teachers.
yeah.
yo you're very lucky actually noel that this is not erm a quiz show.
shall i tell you for why?
why?
i'll tell you why cos the b b c there's a directive just gone out i've just been informed the b b c for quiz show hosts on the b b c to treat their guests with a little more civility.
can you believe it?
how much more flipping civil can you get.
have you heard these quiz sho i mean they're all on radio four aren't they?
all the quiz show yeah basically ?
well rad radio one as well.
mm where do you live anyway?
in leeds.
oh good.
mm it's freezing outside isn't.
it certainly is yes.
what are we talk oh education we're talking about education right yep.
okay let me do the prog right er noel that's a funny name noel by the way isn't it?
it's erm appropriate for the time of the year nearly .
mm it's like pulse but not.
oh oh er yes.
is that how you pronounce it?
erm it it is pronounce to 
not the noel y yeah okay.
anyway right so erm head teachers in the area have been complaining their schools are not tidy not cleaned sufficiently.
yes.
why?
i mean why why are our children going to school in in pig sties?
well i think it's er down to the competitive tendering process where the county council has had to put out the cleaning contracts for schools to tender.
there were problems a few years ago when it first started with th the initial contract which was was won by the the county's own direct service organization and now it seems we're having a repeat of of those problems.
er with the new contracts that started in september erm basically it seems that some teachers are having to do bits of cleaning themselves to keep their their classroom up to up to scratch up to the standards they ought they ought to be.
erm we're hearing reports that parts of schools having to to be closed or th threatened to be closed because they're not sufficiently hygienic for pupils or teachers to work in.
oh how disgusting.
and er 
that is isn't that disgusting?
it certainly is yes .
that is disgusting yes.
so all these a lot of these firms are not up to the job why do why don't you sack them people are not up to the job why don't they get sacked?
well there are monitoring systems which are meant to be in place a and which may be er are not are not effective enough erm.
i mean i've heard representatives for county council th this week saying that er as far as they were concerned th the standards weren't sufficiently low yet for them t to take action.
but basically th every time the contract comes up for renewal, what will happen for a company to attempt to win the contract it's got to cut the hours of its employees and its also got to try and c cut the costs erm by cutting pay and that's the way that's the way contracts are won in this situation and as long as that keeps happening then the situation's going to get steadily worse.
what are we going i mean we we've heard also i'm changing the subject now because that was the the sort of political answer i'd expect and er i suppose until i get somebody else come on and say he's talking absolute whatever er i mean i think it is down to the people who live and work with the school.
i think if you all make a mess you should be severely reprimanded quite frankly expect other people to come round and pick up your mess.
well that's something that a as a teacher we're erm in my school we're constantly saying t to the pupils i mean if they ha they have a they have a certain responsibility t to tidy up after them and t to try and keep their work area tidy that's not the same as er as cleaning at the end of the day as sweeping up all all the dust and and so on.
what about this mum's army of teachers is this going to come to fruition as some point or not?
i don't i don't believe it is erm at the mo well earlier this week a report was published by the national commission on education which was er an independent erm commission that was set up erm and they they've said that basically what we need to be doing is t if we're trying to raise standards is to keep the idea of having an all graduate profess profession followed up by high quality for train training for teachers once they've actually started work.
the problem there is that graduates are so terribly boring and uninteresting people basically aren't they that they find it difficult to impart their er 
you would?
i would yes.
you're a graduate.
i am yes.
yeah i thought so anyway.
er i 
would have thought that graduates find it more difficult to impart knowledge to people than anybody else.
no i'd i'd i don't i don't believe that that's the case erm
karen come to the studio please.
karen come to the studio please.
karen co sorry i just want to do something go on.
yeah so okay i'm i'm i'm 
i don't think that's the case.
i'm i'm winding you up a little bit but no i mean there's a little method in this .
when are the teachers going to stop being political animals and get down to teaching rather than try to score points off the government?
oh we're 
cos anybody can score points off them i mean it's simple.
we we well we'd love to be able to get get on with our job and er wi with far less interference than we receive at the moment but er when government insists on er on interfering to the extent it does an and there have been well i've been reading recently so something like five hundred new powers the education secretary has given himself in the in over the last last few years.
well he's not going to be there for ever.
decisions are made decisions are made erm there that we and we have to live with the consequences of them.
if they affect education then it's our responsibility to speak up about them.
you see i i think er er probably one of the best erm ministers of er of er education that er has been for quite some considerable time and i bet you throw your hands up in horror when i say this you will totally disagree and i'm talking here cos his name's just slipped out of my mind .
who was tha who was that oh for goodness sake tall thin gaunt looking man, always had to have about fifteen spoonfuls of sugar in his coffee whenever i met him?
s sir keith joseph?
er you knew you see sir keith joseph.
now i i remember talking to him for hours once on a programme about education and this was when he first said what we want is teachers to be accountable.
and i'm a great believer in everybody should be accountable right?
yes.
we well i've no objections to that to that at all.
no none of you do now but when he first suggested it everyone was up in arms and he poor old soul i remembered he said, i've had enough change i i believe in this i i've i've tried i'm too old now and out he walked.
is there a chocolate machine in the building?
and off he went.
he was addicted to chocolate.
i i i think erm a lot of teachers would now look back on those days with er a certain fondness now bearing in mind what's what's happened since and the the the succession of education secretaries we've had since since then i mean had the only one in recent years who i would say has attempted a genuine dialogue with the teachers and tried to do something constructive is john mcgregor.
so when, and i would agree with you again, so when are the teachers going to be accountable, when is somebody who is a bad teacher and heck there are quite a few of them, you know it only takes a couple in every school to make it difficult for the rest, going to be got rid of you know you are not up to the mark out.
there there are systems in place in schools already for that and there always have been.
you jest with me now come on we're we're we're being serious noel if you are a teacher it is almost impossible to sack you.
almost totally impossible.
that's simply not true.
there there are disciplinary procedures in in all schools erm which are there to be used.
why are they never used then?
are all teachers too good to be sacked because it is it is as rare as erm teeth in chickens.
i think it's i think it's very easy to er to ex exaggerate the problem to take one anecdotal evidence of of one about one or two cases and maybe about one or two people and say this is a major problem in every school.
let me put it this way to you noel 
i don't think it is.
let me put it to you this way you know as well as i do people who really ought to be doing something else other than teaching.
you know that as well as i do and those people don't seem to be given the encouragement to move on to another profession.
i i 
some are some are promoted to head teachers i know and i knew you were going to say that.
i wasn't going to say that no .
erm no i i honestly don't think that er that the the problem is as big as as big as you you say it is and i i think the the structures are there to deal with that and if if people had you know if people used them then they would they would work and they from time to time that they are used and you know it it is not impossible to get rid of rid of a teacher in in the way you are suggesting.
okay noel thank you for your er your time and being a good sport this afternoon and i hear you have a little one you had better go back and sort things out.
that's right.
okay.
okay thanks.
thanks a lot noel bye bye.
noel from the er n u t.
erm i don't know what this is serious point actually if if you fancy yourself as one of these so called mums and i think it is a little patronizing the er title of a mums' army of teachers, if you think that maybe you could do that and you'd be interested in doing that and you think it's quite a good idea i'd be interested in hearing from you, all right?
o nine o four serious talk o nine o four six four one six four one erm if you'd like to do that give me a call.
now where is er where is rita where are you rit all right my love all right where's rita i've got i've got yellow i've got red i've got blue i've got green.
what number is rita on give me a number because i haven't got white?
twenty four okay right if i put that down there rita hi.
hi.
how are you?
i'm fine thanks .
hang on let me do that again that's good that isn't it?
makes a little noise click click click click.
can i have a chip does anybody hi rita
hi.
lovely rita meter 
oh don't please.
i hate that isn't it awful to be obvious.
well that's what everybody sings to me when them and they meet me for the first time or get introduced to me.
oh they don't.
where are you calling from we're very loud with callers today i know i'm not the most exciting thing on radio but you know there must be some callers out there somewhere?
where am i.
i'm at a little place called ellenthorpe.
ellenthorpe.
is the weather as bad as people keep telling me because it was okay when i drove in this morning.
no it's not it's it's quite mild, there's no frost on the ground it's all gone.
so what's this about snow at thirsk?
well they can keep it we don't want it.
bit strange in thirsk anyway i thought.
i think there'd probably somebody with expanded polystyrene ceiling that's been pulled out.
probably.
yeah it's it's actually it's not too bad it's a bit misty it's a bid hazy erm slight wind but it's not bad.
it's not?
no it's not bad 
no okay.
i've just got to get something do you mind?
no go and get your chips or whatever.
no i've got i've got i wanted t 
it's all right my hubby can wait for his lunch i aren't bothered.
jolly well ought to as well.
er i wanted to talk to jim bowen you see about this quiz show host ought to be a a little nicer than they are and apparently his answer machine is on at home.
well i must admit james i've threatened to put mine on.
have you?
well karen said that if i won the competition she'd ring back.
mm and then you thought, oh god i've done it now .
but i had to speak to you you see and i dialled you while you actually said on the air that anyone that won had to speak to you and said to karen look if you ring back i'll put the answer phone on .
i know i thought that was good because then everybody puts the phone down you see and they all think they're going to be terribly clever.
yes i think it depends on what kind of a message you actually have on your recorder to start off with.
is your's rude.
no it just says that it's basically to the effect of that the answering machine is quite reliable
i i 
and if you leave a message it will be dealt with and people do leave a message, whereas before when it just said i'm sorry i'm not available they didn't they just put the phone down.
i usually leave a message saying i'm having sex at the moment ring back in about three seconds.
and do they?
sometimes sometimes they never ring back at all ever.
i should've just say you're bragging.
yes you're right, you been speaking to my wife?
well yeah we'll probably use the same supermarket i don't know.
so listen i wan er er so is there any snow out there at all anywhere?
no no hon 
there's not.
any chips out there ?
well to be honest ja i can't see that far normally from where i live i can see the white horse bank but it's shrouded in mist at the moment erm no i can't see so i couldn't tell you whether there there is snow up there or not.
okay.
i also i i also erm er what was i going to say i would take the disc but i can't find a way of getting into this machine actually it's broken erm .
it sounds about par for the b b c.
young danny, the big boss now weekend said er take a disc take a disc and i said yeah well it's knackered er erm.
what?
sorry.
i'm doing that talking to you look for jim bowen's mobile phone number so i thought we'd give him a ring that'll surprise him wont it?
yeah.
okay er 
can the b b c afford these phone calls?
i don't think so no i don't think so at all that's why they don't call anybody back.
oh well you can call me back.
erm oh hang on just a minute can you hang on there?
yeah well hubby's waiting 
i'll i'll get to you in a minute.
for his lunch but it doesn't really matter.
no stuff that who cares?
er 
hungry.
he well so am i.
actually i was hoping someone's going to bring in some er some some nouveau beaujolais nouveau cos a new one came out on thursday.
is there nobody round here listening that can erm that could bring in some beaujolais nouv no no little off licence that will do this free publicity on the b b c to come in a say, look i'm an odd bin or something like that ?
i i thought the b b c i thought the b b c couldn't advertise then?
no the b b c can't.
but you can?
well.
you're the exception to the rule i suppose?
yes you wait till you get severely beaten and then you say i'm very sorry i didn't mean to do that.
hang on hang on i've got rachael from er from guide friday buses.
oh golly hang on just a minute .
i think i think i think you've probably stirred a hornets nest up with that.
hang on just a minute.
er rachael?
rachael?
hello.
is that you rachael?
yes it is.
god i've i've been in love with you ever since i met you all those where are you at the moment?
i'm actually in the office in tower street over looking 
are you?
clifford's tower.
why don't you wonder over here?
there isn't actually a bus in oh yes there is a bus in sight.
why don't you wonder over here and bring a bottle of wine and we'll share it over the next hour of the show.
oh i can't i've got things to do in the office, a busy company here.
i never did like those open topped buses.
well unclear 
so i'll be back to you.
at the moment i can see about half well a dozen people sat on one of the buses.
can you?
yes.
no wonder there's no traffic moving out there today.
there is traffic moving, it's moving quite freely apart from the cars going into the car park just behind clifford's tower.
is that right?
that's right yeah.
there's never any spaces behind clifford's tower so i don't know how you're just telling me fibs aren't you?
well they're all they're all queuing up to go in there so i not sure.
i just don't understand all these buses with the open tops it's freezing out there and all these tourists look they could walk rachael.
well are tourists 
they could walk, why don't they walk?
it's a seven kilometre tour.
it takes an hour and a lot of people don't want to walk around the city they'd like the option of going around on the bus.
what did the minister of health say the other day?
obesity obesity and lack of exercise.
and that's what you're encouraging rachael .
not encouraging lack of exercise we're encouraging an informative tour around the city with a qualified guide.
you still got that beautiful blonde hair?
we're not on the air are we?
no no no we're not on the air.
heaven forbid i wouldn't talk to you like this if we were on the air would i ?
anyway so go on.
right.
what were we talking about?
so you don't mind 
talking about the buses.
yeah.
so i mean i think it'd great guide friday you run around little flag in the air, i've seen them in london and you can do that and and and people get so fit.
not that you need to be any fitter than you are.
well they are fit cos they get on and off at any of the stops they go along to the attraction that they want to do.
yeah i walk from my front door to my car as well and people say that's not enough exercise.
well the a there's the barbican centre for the exercise perhaps they should encourage the tourists there then.
mm forgetting all about oh dear i've got a frog when i go on the air i'll clear that.
er can you hang on a minute?
yes certainly.
i just got a we commercial breaks call you back in a minute don't go away yet.
rita?
rita?
oi rita where's rita gone.
you cut her off well get her back on.
get her back on or she's not having this i'm sorry about that hang on just a minute block your ears i'm just going to spin round again okay hang on oops er are you their rachael are you there?
i'm here yes.
oh you are okay fine good got you.
i can't open me thing here.
the the er music blowing machine.
there's a problem hang on.
are you do you ever go in for karaoke and stuff stuff like that?
no i don't.
yeah all right never mind about the photo give me your teddy i don't care about that.
er rachael
yeah.
yeah what are you doing this evening?
i'm going to seaham this evening.
seaham who?
seaham up in er county durham.
oh i know yeah i know seaham yeah.
what were are you doing?
i thought i want it on the c ds.
oh right sorry.
i should think so.
playing with me knobs.
look hang on i've got one queu are you all right there rachael?
hello.
do you get fed up with people saying, are you really like that one in coronation street?
no i don't actually cos i'm nothing like her .
erm
you look similar.
well that's er that's a insult.
it's not.
it is.
yeah.
i thought when we did we did that programme out to lunch in the summer and you came along and we talked all about buses and er your organization and i i i was very nice to you actually.
you were very pleasant.
and didn't say you know, it's flipping these tour buses in york that cos all the other people trouble because you can't get anywhere they clog the roads up.
well that's really not our problem i mean that's to do with the deregularization of er bus companies allowing any anybody to start up a bus company.
oh that's a bit political rachael isn't it a bit political i wasn't expecting that 
featured the last er three years some of the other companies have only been here since last year and the year before so i mean we're a national tour operator
experienced in running open topped tours around cities.
could you hang on just a minute don't go away just stay there hold on.
ah rita.
yes james.
good.
sorry about that 
still here.
what?
i said i'm still here.
you had to go off and make his nosh didn't you?
no i didn't he's in the kitchen being a very very domesticated husby and he's making own nosh.
he's not is he?
yeah he is oh heck i've got to get the news in haven't i that worries me.
well don't worry if you ask him nicely he might even make you a bacon sandwich.
would he?
what's his name?
alan.
alan.
make us a bacon sandwich.
what?
just a minute he wants to know what you said.
i don't think i dare.
anyway hawaiian wedding.
song.
oh well done what a difficult competition yeah.
thank you james.
now just could you sing it first.
could i what?
sing it.
james you've got a licence to go on the air haven't you?
doesn't matter.
it does cos if i sing if i sing you 
the b b c have got to give everybody a fair crack of the whip.
now come on james you were saying you were short on callers the few that you've got you don't want to get rid of.
yes karen all right i'm building up to that for goodness sake .
oh james no james you want some listeners i'm sorry love .
what about hound dog?
hound yeah well you know that hound dog whines?
yes.
that's good to what i sing like.
what about don't be do you know the words to don't be cruel.
come here a minute karen.
come here you said you do come here she's a bit of a singer is karen.
i know yes i know she is .
anything to get er to be a star .
i've heard her at christmas time.
how come?
well she i think it was karen that did something for children in need last year and she sang on the air.
children in need, people in greed.
no.
come here.
james you were once a child.
i was never a child i was born bald.
ooh gawd heaven help us .
hound dog don't hound dog.
hound dog.
go go on one two three four.
woof woof.
come on karen sing it.
it's undignified, karaoke it's not
you ain't you ain't nothing but a 
hound dog.
what's the next line?
crying all the time.
crying all the time 
you ain't nothing but a hound dog.
yes.
crying all the time.
that's good okay.
you ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine.
she knew it all the time.
yes she did she's good .
yeah.
okay well the only thing about this is and we're going to send this to you and er you take it out and get rita's address.
thanks.
that's okay.
bye.
bye.
er it's karaoke video as well.
so you do need a karaoke machine.
well it's all right because my daughter's got one her music cassette thing whatever.
mm.
mm so we can do it on that.
oh.
and have a good laugh and think of you.
i think i might ring nina i've just found her home phone number in my book .
have you.
yeah.
why do you want to ring her, james .
i don't know i just thought about it be quite funny .
i thought you were ring james er bowen .
jim bowen i am i am i've got a number i'm going to ring him in minute.
you are?
yeah.
okay go and make me a bacon sandwich
yeah.
and i'll see you later.
okay then.
all right darling it's been lovely.
i bet you can't find to come and pick it up.
no i can't.
no.
oh see you later.
bye james.
bye bye.
okay let's er let's go back where are you rachael?
hello i'm in tower street.
i know you're in tower street i'm just being facetious really.
any way .
hound dog can you do hound dog no don't don't be cruel how does that go?
sorry?
sing don't be cruel .
i'm not singing at all.
why not?
because i can't sing.
oh hang on the ex-directory number's ringing.
that's the boss he'll be complaining.
so there's no chance of getting rid of all these coaches and getting people to walk round the er the guided tours and stuff like that?
er well that would defeat the whole object of offering the open topped tours if people were actually walking.
well it would defeat you making a few bob .
there is actually there is actually walking tours around the city for those people who wish to opt for
mm.
for a walking tour.
so there is the option of doing both the walking tour or the bus tour.
okay hang on just a minute.
er danny?
he's the bo he's what they call the editor of the programme.
right.
okay just in case you're wondering who i'm talking t danny anything else you want me to ask her?
he cos he are you sure we've done this erm everything all right?
okay right sing along with me rachael.
are you ready?
i'm not singing.
you're not singing.
you're not singing?
no.
hooray.
oh no i didn't.
oh here we go.
i want you to sing along with this it's very good you'll enjoy this all right.
everybody at home join in as well here we go.
robin hood riding through the glen.
rachael?
hello.
come on.
sing 
i'm not singing honestly.
show that this guide 
i can't sing i'd embarrass myself .
yeah but nobody can sing 
i deter anybody who'd every wanted to get on one of the buses .
no you wouldn't they'll all come on and say where's that girl that sings robin hood.
i don't think they would.
are you not going to do this?
i'm not i'm sorry i'm not singing.
are you not?
okay right do a little dance for me go on.
i've got people in the office, i can't dance.
you've got people in the office?
yeah.
customers?
er got two guides, a guide and a driver to tell you the truth.
okay could you let me talk to the driver?
yes certainly.
put the driver on i want to talk to the driver.
robin hood robin i like that it's great.
haven't got another record queued up .
hello.
hi who are you?
julie.
are you a driver?
don't sound so surprised, that's really sexist.
why?
the way you said that.
just because i'm a female.
i didn't say that.
i just said are you a driver?
yeah i am.
oh i mean you just sound so young to be a driver that's what i was going to say.
well i am.
you are young?
i am.
you are young.
i am.
yes you are young.
yes.
yeah.
you are also a woman.
i am yes .
yeah yeah yes yeah.
you're not that blonde one i've noticed driving around and nearly swerved to have a better look at the other day are you?
well no that just might have been rachael you were just been talking to.
no she does she says she she wouldn't be allowed to drive she says scatter brain you wouldn't let her drive would you?
.
mm?
no i can't say anything can i?
is she your boss?
sort of yes.
do you get well paid for this job?
no.
you don't well you don't deserve to get well paid because 
not for all the hassle we get.
for all the time that we have to sit behind you when we're trying to drive around blowing our horns going get out the way .
well ninety per cent of the time you shouldn't be where we are cos it's no cars.
absolute rubbish.
unless you're a taxi.
don't they know who i am?
what do you mean i shouldn't be there?
oh i'm really sorry.
what sort of car do you drive round in?
what would you think i drive round in?
i'll i'll make a point in looking out for ya.
i've got i've got a huge a huge turbo bentley with a great big whale stuck on the front.
oh right.
and andy written down the back if you want to scratch it.
oh well no i won't do that i'll just drive round at five mile an hour in front of ya.
you do that anyway.
oh no no be fair it's fifteen usually.
is it?
er all these people gawping at everything.
i if i was a building the last thing i would want would be people gawping at me.
well where does all the revenue come from into york?
int i don well not from you lot does it?
oh she's 
aha.
got it now?
aha.
salaries and holidays and that thing.
and ma , make you pay your pension book this year.
mhm.
just ask the old girls to make their and say well i want your national insurance numbers?
now, now where is that?
i say, it's on your pension book.
is it?
i didn't know!
i know mine off by heart.
do you?
what your national insurance 
do you?
number.
if they want to know i know exactly what number it is.
do you?
do you?
well i gave my dad's to put, i gave dad his to take 
to hospital you see.
and he says, what are you giving me that for?
it's no good!
and i said it was!
how is he at the moment marg?
what time's he getting up now?
it's quite a nice day today.
oh yes!
when i got up this morning, i nearly died!
i got out the bed at five and twenty to eleven and the curtains were still drawn and i thought oh my god!
so, i opened the door and i was so pleased when he answered, you know.
he said, just at the right time he decided that he can't get bath any more.
well that's not a problem.
i said to him yesterday wash all your important little places and i'll do the rest, you know.
so when i got there this morning he was still in his pyjamas he'd got on quite well, all he wanted me to do was wash his face.
would you like another drink?
would you like some more 
er 
drink?
he wasn't too bad but he's 
no , i'm alright.
still, he can't say anything, the pain's there all the time.
no, they're alright bill.
but with a bit of luck we'll know tomorrow.
we're all okay here.
oh yeah, the results of your x- ray.
mm.
how's you bill, alright?
do you want any more to drink?
no thank you darling, no thanks 
no thanks.
my round.
bill.
one pint of .
aye.
can't get any more drinks now!
oh oh, oh no !
well we might have offered !
do you use nail clippers on him?
mm.
yeah.
yeah.
i use them on dave's mums finger 
oh!
nails.
!
she goes, oh no you need to, don't get back, she don't keep her hands still!
don't think much of that!
when they get old they're all sort of 
oh!
wriggly !
yeah.
and i file my dad's 
but 
for him.
they came sort of without !
i said to him all the, you know his his nail 
and i reckon i washed 
a pair of black feet the other and i thought my god,!
oh god!
really?
i really thought it was that bad!
what they were that black!
what you think it was gangrene?
oh my god!
i thought oh christ!
bloody hell!
did you put dettol in the water?
the toes are gonna come off in a minute?
oh oh, how awful!
but they didn't.
i don't have any ruddy or anything 
like that.
i'd collapse if they did!
it'd be awful wouldn't it?
ooh ooh !
you could have said this little piggy went to market!
yeah !
how dreadful!
it's one he !
he don't fe , he don't feel nothing now.
no, course they can't feel it can they?
i thought about popping out to !
urgh!
it's gonna come off 
it's gonna com yeah.
in a minute!
oh!
tony was talking about how cold i am.
we've got this old boy that comes to me, often she's told us his hands are rotten, that it's all yellow and horrible!
er i said to george you know, you've gotta remember these things.
if anything happens to that man they'll know he's alright except for tidy.
must be awful mustn't 
mm.
it?
there's one man i'd like to take care of though.
that women's seventy and a day and she's got the body of a young girl!
yeah.
she's got a lovely bod , lovely body!
is that right?
beautiful!
got a lot of it!
you know, she really has!
got a lovely body!
really she's .
what she us ,u used to watch.
yeah because her 
is lovely!
she's got a young body.
yeah.
that's strange mon!
and no wrinkles on the body at all!
i mean 
did you try her firms and
well no, that's alright.
i'm having my leg pulled here!
probably hadn't been in the sun at all!
absolutely lovely body!
got a beautiful body!
well that ethel's in her seventies and, you see her in just towel wrapped round her and she could wear a 
round her head wear them.
strapless anything.
mm!
mind you, val looks 
she looks really good!
really?
yeah, but i'd say it's because she's a 
have she 
little bit plump.
yeah, but she's firm though marg!
in a way
no, i don't doubt it.
well there's no wrinkles.
and there's no wrinkles or fat involved and everything about her is her.
yeah.
mm.
she wouldn't be here 
we're hopeful of that part!
would she?
dunno.
yeah, she came on saturday.
i was telling her about 
you alright?
that, about bobby's !
rang up last night 
so i gotta ring her wednesday.
yeah.
so we don't actually say the same what we're like it should be alright i suppose.
but if you went up 
when you go and down!
when yo , when you go up and down, yeah!
you're alright aren't you?
you've nothing to worry about.
it's when you go up and up, you worry!
wha wha wha kind of a seagull is this !
when you set off breathe out.
i'm not lifting my jumper up bill!
if he expected a skirt,
oh!
he's just about got it!
i hope you're planning to bring that down when i got sunburnt you you thought that you'd been cheated didn't you?
oh i know i've been cheated!
just as well as a can't fi , throw it over my shoulder!
didn't you have the same figure after you had a boys then sylv, er mary?
no, i as flat as a pancake until i had her!
i've never lost an inch off my bust now.
no.
oh well!
but when i was at, you know, when i was a , when i was sort of feeding, cor!
the best i've ever been !and they went back.
i never got
when they first 
i sort of lost weight, i was sort of 
you know,at all.
actually weighed anything, the little bit i had!
no!
i came back up 
they came straight 
and i stayed there.
never lost an inch!
didn't you?
nope!
i was a thirty two a.
whe , the day i got married i was a thirty two a a
yeah.
which is a very flat one.
yeah.
i'm now up to a thirty four b and i've been a thirty four b ever since then.
mm.
and i never went down again.
i can get back up to about a thirty eight now.
and i hate it!
yeah!
done you a bit good 
yeah !
in some ways i bet!
it has hasn't it?
god!
and now, i think to myself, well and inch off wouldn't be bad.
yeah.
but i wouldn't wanna go back to a thirty two a not really.
not as big as i am down here cos you wouldn't look right would you?
i'm bottom heavy.
yeah, so am i sylve.
can you just imagine anyone like top heavy?
that doesn't bother me.
when i was young i had 
dolly parton?
oh!
well then, that's something that you see.
well you,like that.
it is isn't it?
yeah.
yeah!
and you find, can you imagine anybody trying to do that these days?
no.
mm.
must be!
i think she's going to always fall over all the time really !
yeah.
well tell you what, she would never get up would she?
no.
no.
you know, she'd 
isn't it?
yeah.
you can have without the honey, you know.
oh yeah!
you know they're back?
are they back?
are they back alright?
yeah.
yeah.
i mean they were supposed back.
well that's gone quickly , quick to me but it's probably
that'll them won't it?
just as .
well!
it must be them.
well you, it must be.
i dunno, you , he said erm
i think it was .
was it?
mm.
aha!
i thought it was last week?
so seven weeks he said it was.
no, last weekend.
and yet 
well it's seven weeks last thursday.
they did something with miss .
so is that them?
yeah.
ah yeah!
ya!
that's them!
they went the twenty seventh didn't they?
that's what they said or something.
aha.
and er
but he doesn't look exceptionally brown though.
he's alright for the donnington 
no.
grand prix.
no.
do he?
he looks a bit 
yeah.
er, may isn't it?
i thought he would have been a real deep brown actually.
yeah, that's right.
we're going in there.
is it?
yeah.
on sunday.
this is nice isn't it!
so it's the fourth time then?
yes.
yeah.
and we come back on the thirteenth.
yeah, we go out the day of the 
and we've booked the taxi.
monaco have you?
yeah.
although, i sa , but i hope they've got the right day!
so we're getting on with it then?
er er, we go out the day of the monaco 
everything's done now.
grand prix.
we just gotta get there.
do you?
ooh do you?
what date 
yep.
do you go then?
the day of the monaco grand prix!
on dave's birthday.
on dave's birthday.
on the thirty first?
yeah.
do you?
i've put it in 
dave's birthday?
my diary, i've go wrote it in my diary, i got dave's birthday.
what you off on holiday?
yeah, with marg 
for two weeks?
yeah.
well that gotta be weeks now innit?
oh yeah!
that's right!
in june.
april 
march
may.
think 
well 
of me while you're 
three months.
over there doing my g c s e's please !
oh!
ah!
oh god!
oh you're waiting for them
i've had my exams 
are you?
ages!
is that right?
i haven't counted it 
no.
mary.
one, two, three 
so it's dreadful!
fourteen.
that's the pay arrears i got.
fourteen , yes.
yeah, cos we're not to the end of feb yet are we?
yeah.
fourteen.
where are you lot going?
but it doesn't take long does it?
no.
it'll 
it's 
fly by.
between nice and
oh,
i've gotta say.
it's very nice!
it's very nice!
well no, they'll be go christmas time when 
think all this time 
when you start what date did 
erm 
you start?
the eighteenth.
i've got my orals on the eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth
of may?
yeah.
then i get half term for a week and then my actual exams start.
as i said to you've have this half term off from now on from tomorrow she's got to start 
my first exam i've got is june the fourth.
and i've got two on the fourth, one on the tenth, and one on the eleventh, so the last 
you've got your orals in may.
yeah, may the eighteenth, nineteenth 
yeah.
and twentieth.
i will probably have had my french actual one in may.
so definitely haven't had the 
so you've got to start revising now.
ones back.
we've had the seven exam in the erm
isn't that clear?
is that your gateaux?
no it's shelley's.
well don't eat it all then!
is it, isn't it clear that i get 
yeah.
it's very clear.
is it very dry, exceptionally dry?
it is !
well don't speak then?
she can't remember 
what the last one tastes like !
brown innit?
yeah, it's nice, but very dry.
it's quite nice .
yes.
this one here has really dropped the whole of my particulars on her own!
i think that's disgusting!
not on my own!
ha!
ha!
ha!
ha!
have you saw anything?
ha!
ha!
ha!
five to two!
ha , well who gave you a particulars then?
or did you buy a bit?
no, she didn't!
i bought it.
mm.
oh well you can't blame her for not 
no, you didn't, dad did!
i did!
dad said i could have an order!
you bought the .
let's have this knife.
yeah.
she's got it wrong.
good job i haven't 
oh look over there!
th there erm 
they erm
i went back into 
came to the office.
don't you think they're only using that as 
well yeah!
apart from having it on 
urgh!
no.
there was all the mail 
and th the thing is, but, you know
piled on it beside it.
i don't know how i'm gonna .
well!
so you weren't 
got 
any help?
yeah.
i just cannot have her today as well!
you never heard anything from what's his name?
robbie, about going into london did you?
yeah, it's alright.
not a word.
no, not a word.
not a word!
but he sa , he said he's not going any more.
yeah!
who was talking of going to work for a different firm then?
i thought it was you?
no.
no.
he and, erm a the other bloke are still there.
the chap who tried to call, the one watching it?
behind, yep.
yeah, he's still there.
i was gonna say er somebody told me that he'd left and i thought it was you cos nobody would .
no, he's still here.
i got it wrong, yeah.
yeah, could have been me marg.
could have easily been me.
do you think you'd better aim for the winter now?
i would, definitely.
yeah.
personally, maybe we just 
did i tell you what's happened?
they sent you all notes on 
well it's quite naughty 
and then you won't 
cos goodwood's sorted isn't it?
you'll expect that they the coach was burnt out down in beatmore , if you remember and then the the police took them august there
di , no,th october.
police took him in that night cos they thought he'd burnt it out himself.
and it's taken all this time, it's gone to court and all the rest of it, and they haven't got a case.
so, they couldn't do anything in the meantime.
i should think 
well they 
that was genuine.
the banks wo wouldn't let me have extra money or anything like that.
oh!
they're trying to get somewhere now with the police but it could have happened anywhere!
no it's alright!
but this, this bloke has sort of said, ooh he said, apparently one of the blokes that were working for him said that he had overheard him saying they were gonna burn the coach out.
oh!
and if this chap said, the one that took it that night, he said there is no point in him doing it because he didn't have the coaches insured for enough.
no.
no.
he took this bloke in, he didn't have a job.
isn't it mean?
mm.
you know the er
it is.
cou po , could possibly 
yeah.
going on the what not.
and did this chap do it?
they don't know who did it.
no.
they tried to make jim had done his own coach, the one that took us over 
yeah.
there.
yeah.
but he le , they let him go off on holiday in the end.
it wa it was the night before they went on holiday.
how depressing marg!
i mean i can understand it in this day and age, people trying to
get their money back.
yeah.
get their money from insurance policies and try and make their money back 
i suppose what it really amounts to, it's probably someone who's in the same line of business and they're trying to get the best way aren't they?
mm.
but it's a nasty business isn't it?
i know.
that's , you moving about?
yeah !
i'm reading.
i'm gonna be here all night with that little red book waiting for me to come over!
alright, thanks!
dave, this is your life!
sorry!
this is 
and you're more number in her little red book!
i tell you what though marg 
dave's got a job pretty well hasn't he?
i've done it.
yeah, i saw it last week here as well!lo , lot shorter otherwise he'll be complaining his ears are growing too high!
but that if he won't sit there very often marg, then i suppose i'd do anything.
your business is my business.
oh i see!
which was the last time i did george's was the day when i came down .
well it's mr you see, he goes out at twelve o'clock on a sunday and doesn't get in till quarter to four.
work!
yeah.
work!
yeah.
well down right 
oh the there are you see!
oh well it's gotta be then, here's a taxi.
oh right!
yeah.
they might .
well you've had that!
i've had that.
bleeding yes!!
oh right!
oh right, this is your life!
mum told me off!
not now.
twenty five past.
not now.
i'll pick up
i'm on wednesday.
ah ah!
she's just determined to find out who
twenty fourth of march.
yeah.
so who this bloke is?
so that's not this week 
it might be 
that's next week?
no, it'll be bill.
yeah.
now who, what was that then?
that'll be easy, watch this.
is that right?
that's right.
yeah, i usually watch, usually watch that.
i don't usually watch it.
but i don't watch it
don't you?
no.
i'll put hands in, i find out.
you can?
there's nothing wicked .
i understand that you found out 
but it's e eon
something like 
that was 
that.
yeah.
i might not watch it.
yo you don't think she's got any 
wait a minute.
we think it's a 
oh,a do you?
boring, then we looked to see what's on the other side, but for some reason she was talking don't they?
or time until they 
do you watch er noel edmonds?
you see coming off the th there's a straight bit erm, but she was very friendly with this woman's mother
mm.
but the daughter still keeps in touch with her.
she's just written to her to say that she's on this is your life on the third or fourth of march, whatever it is
oh!
and her son-in-law is an actor but mrs doesn't know who he is, what his name is
oh!
so to speak so she's written and told her whereabouts she's sitting and everything so 
that girl is daft 
but he wa 
that's all i can say!
she don't usually, but she will be that night.
she'll remember won't she?
yeah.
he'll remind 
that's right!
her again
ye oh 
so 
she'll remember.
yeah.
i think i saw you with her wednesday.
you probably did.
yeah.
i thought ooh!
that looks like joannie's old car!
i was waiting for the bus.
were you?
i thought ooh!
there's another woman in 
where were you?
there!
in robson's 
yeah.
oh yeah!
she can't miss 
getting her pension.
it out can she !
no.
oh, is this local you went?
she !
in lidmouth 
yeah.
does anyone watch noel edmonds on a saturday night?
i watched it from where he gets 
i do watch some of it.
timmy mallet up onwards.
you know where they go round 
yes.
to people's houses?
i didn't see it cos we fell asleep.
i caught a bit of it on and we sat down and went to sleep.
yeah.
and you've gotta guess who's 
but what happened on saturday?
house it is.
what were they doing?
no , they, go the, you know, it might be your living room, they just put 
oh i see!
oh yeah!
this week with those swimmers they were, those two women put a peg on their nose and had their swimming hats on and was doing the act of swimming in the lane?
no!
no .
apparently erm, they often do this and of course, they sort of went into their home and got this girl with her friend and they sort of put the pegs on their noses and have these sort of rubber hats with those 
yeah.
, you know, like they do and they sort of pretend they're
they pretend they're swimming
oh!
don't they?
yeah!
what, and weren't they?
yeah.
well you know, she was just sat there in the chair and they said that they 
you wouldn't believe it!
came into this room.
would you?
no!
and sort of 
and they danced.
they sort of, they danced you know, like they we , they would and sort of , getting ever so silly about it actually!
and they
i know !
cos they did like 
they didn't say anything.
song person, that last week, and terry weeks ago.
his wife set him up cos he he's always the one 
oh!
the one, oh yeah!
oh right!
everybody else.
yeah.
when he had roly-polys in.
yeah.
whe , that was the one.
yeah.
cos he hated fat people.
yeah.
yeah, he hated fat people.
and they're all round and they're 
and he hated the gunge tank.
!
he hated the gunge bit as well.
yeah.
like when they went out in the garden and they put
yeah.
the gunge on him as well.
what's that?
i haven't 
no he 
watched that.
does anybody else know 
that er, that's his.
what's happening on march the second?
oh yes !
i'm glad about that.
strange advert i saw in the week it it was erm
i 
i 
haven't seen it.
it was something about march the second, it was just a clip 
pancake day is it?
no, it's the 
oh!
the monday!
this is the second!
it's a monday is it?
oh it's a monday.
okay, go on.
tuesday's the third.
and in, it said there's, find out all you want know or much better being put.
ah?
and this came up about three times!
and it hasn't been 
on television?
on since.
yeah!
but it came up about three times!
well i got in friday and she goes , ooh!
look at the adverts mum!
and then my programme caught the advert.
yeah, it really puzzled me!
no, i reckon the advert 
yeah, i've seen it.
you'll have to watch on
watch it then.
yeah.
so something's obviously happening.
yeah.
but she hadn't found out what.
it was just a clipping of it.
it had it sor it was sort of like the body shop sort of theme, but it's not the body theme.
it you know th , their green symbol with the black 
yeah.
in it?
well it's green and it's got cream in it, but it's not the exact symbol of the body shop,i a bit different.
it's weird!
it's just really puzzling me!
i don't know what it is.
.
oh they're recording us.
what's it for ?
what?
you wanna put it on the table where it's actually.
right, just put it on the table and leave it!
no you can't.
i'll put it on the table, then leave it!
if i had what?
what behind?
yeah.
so there you'll pass all round.
oh nice!
i thought i'd do a tape then mum.
not gonna be 
okay?
worth going out.
you get endorsement!
have they ?
oh i went like hell then didn't i?
at least they've gone light and we can hammer along.
i didn't think you could.
no!
ought to have a floor manager 
or something.
aye up!
that's okay for them we'll be able to fix something on.
often get many of them, don't worry!
mostly for the cross both sides.
are you coming out tomorrow night?
what you going erm
going to the legion.
i dunno.
legion legion.
alright.
legion tomorrow night.
well i paid my dues.
i paid, i paid er well i'm not off , but i i'll put something towards it.
oh i see!
you got something a have you put something towards it?
yeah.
i think by christmas you'll have had anything 
ha!
going.
cost a fortune it does!
well if you will give the money to albert!
give it to albert, and he'll 
albert don't come down friday night.
yeah.
yeah.
you'll have to try these.
well you should have left them for me really.
yeah.
we didn't unfortunately.
we didn't ask, but he said not to.
yeah , i know where it is!
se seeing him later on.
how much now?
should have given us the money, money.
no, we're coming out tomorrow night then!
oh no!
don't you go getting with all friends 
from the legion?
don't they , yeah you'll play in the legion won't you?
ah?
ah?
in here.
yeah.
yeah, i might i might have a wander o over there.
you don't want me to come and see how you're getting on 
do you?
you might be able to unpack bob for us.
yes.
well, from what i know he didn't get no money after that!
well, really that's no problem at all ken!
i can do that dead easy!
yeah, but you gotta be down here early enough for that to see him.
he goes on number one don't he?
does he?
ah, we got class here!
i'm coming along anyway friday.
no we'll beat them then!
no doubt.
but wha when i was, you weren't around when we played them then were you?
cos i didn't come, i was ill.
i was ill .
i was ill.
i had a we we should be in there.
but they said we lost it.
but, no to play, you did.
no.
and after that i i you know, seeing him again and he he's not a player 
he's unbeaten champion.
no he's not.
well he .
yeah, but he doesn't play against 
he doesn't play with us does he?
yeah.
he's
well look and see what's in the way then.
is he gonna play with us .
well he was up against me and he knew it.
he knew it!
no, i'll be going,.
he's good too!
good player!
bit of a, bit of a good darts player.
well he's a county player isn't he albert?
yeah.
reasonable player.
i mean he scored well in the 
yeah.
really, the way i look at it he
yeah.
he say, he said he's a fu , he's a terrible player and he played against bob and i and we had we want two double .
move over.
well that's it.
mind, that's that's what i like about that bloody .
come and kiss the !
you, you !
now you're being rude!
right, right.
yeah and 
that's what i like.
no, you you put your own, david down there.
yeah.
yeah.
i think that, i mean they still got the different, if you're playing like a shot 
i think you do.
i think you do because
i mean, we got nine players and once you've drawn that out you either leap forward by 
what about the places you go to put eight or nine .
eight singles and that's that problem .
but you can.
you could have a coming around every week and two you don't get it.
and you talk about buying them young, you can got them, cos he knows .
yeah.
.
with you coming in, nobody knows they're at the gate.
no, i i see what you mean.
alright!
i like the .
today do you get four at home and four away.
yeah.
and that goes on aggregate on the night, yeah?
yes.
and the, as we got our own side they can, they can win perhaps they just around
i'll do it.
the way going back they got before.
whereas me and you got a team together, you said forty two playing league and four playing here and four playing a league game.
that's right , yes.
so you got .
oh no you do , you no, no!
well yes.
well no, no, no.
you play four on the team the four on the team play a go right?
then, whichever played a one that game go away again.
yeah.
so you've got the same ?
!
yes, alright then.
then you play, you play yo you play four singles four singles, four singles and two doubles.
i was thinking you played .
i mean they go away, i mean the six always played at the back.
but everybody else is.
brian was saying, he said you going in with your he said and we'll lose that , he said he should play his best bloody
well yeah.
six you've got!
but darts don't work like that .
if you're going to win you gotta play you're best six .
that's right.
that's right.
you've got to, but then again, you know 
unless you're not bothered.
unless, unless, unless, unless you won and then you get best .
well no, you ge if you won and give the rest a game.
see we're not bothered.
we're, we're, i mean we're not we're not that bothered really .
yeah, but no could we?
i mean 
well we could, we could help you 
i mean we want, we want well, to tell you truth, we shall won on that, we won on that occasion.
i put on, i put on my best two doubles haven't i?
and left left
well i only said whatever you want to do.
do you wanna go up for suit .
i said, that's all we want.
now, you know
we go out to win on the night, we're playing tomorrow 
exactly!
and we go out to win.
everybody goes on about .
if we win without it, we come in the first five that's all well and good.
we you go out, do you go out to win?
everybody 
but 
does that.
you don't argue about it.
if we lose, we lose.
you don't, i mean i'd like to win it every bloody week but, i'd be chuffed.
i'd be as happy as a dog with two dicks!
i mean they stopped us friday didn't they?
they thought it would stop us didn't they?
you thought it would stop us as good as they did.
what, seven two was it 
six 
or
no, six.
two.
one of them.
mm.
i mean we played good, but just couldn't get out and they did.
well the door was open and nobody were worried about that.
don't you remember that thirty doubles.
what, they got it?
they got it?
the only worry about that was brian.
yes, you're right.
yeah!
yeah.
played out of his skin again.
but er he, i had some .
played, he played out of his bloody skin till half way.
he couldn't of played as many, he'd have bloody 
well that was .
but the 
cos he hasn't got any .
that, i sort of said who was it?
he plays like you said.
i was going to old chris, i said i said he should play in the class.
he's quite a good player .
i said, he eats about a as much as much as like a corn packet !
ah, brian, brian, david has never met you.
and he went
he would be on the , good that hole!
good that hole!
and he went bump, bump, bump took the prize down and i said, and i walked past we said like, to his mate chris, i said, he's improved a damn sight more than i'd have thought.
er yeah, i'm waiting on the dole tomorrow honey.
i'll get the work soon enough.
well they've only two pairs.
they got bob , the
bob .
oldest player who ever 
neil, you can wear the green card.
yeah!
no, they've .
i always get that , that .
no!
no!
no!
neither has robbie.
thank you.
she'll be there.
who?
they reckon they really haven't got their play right.
it'll be
that's the only, er, that's only reason we will.
yeah!
i thought you said they've got a chap 
well 
he did.
full .
yeah.
get that.
i don't know.
what about ?
no, i i i can do that.
robbie's got it.
rob 
we're gonna win for victory .
and that erm carole down there look.
hasn't been for a few years.
yes.
yeah.
i pulled my .
erm 
but, the man goes on number two.
i did, the afternoon.
yeah.
see him a couple of years anyway.
go and pick up?
if you'd see him, i thought you all was under the rest of them but 
well that, i think i would have recognized 
looked younger.
the face anyway.
the bloke with the green usually wears the green trousers.
but he plays that well every, cos every time i see him play he plays hell of bloody suit!
yes.
definitely.
definitely.
you never lose a touch.
not with the team you've got.
okay, i'm coming!
alright?
hold on!
hold on!
hold on!
yes.
hold on!
oh yeah!
as long as you, you shouldn't, you shouldn't lose it now.
oh i know.
no way!
not with 
well i wanna go then woman!
ah?
don't move it.
eh?
yeah, you just do it for one bloody night don't you?
yeah, i know we 
but we can!
can!
the sheep to cross the road and 
mm.
quite unusual!
i'd never seen it before and that's the one time i've seen it.
i can remember when you'd see a cloud of dust, perhaps it'll be a mile away and this would be a flock of sheep.
course, they hadn't had lorries in them days, they drive them on the road and you see old shepherd coming along with a couple of dogs and goodness knows how many sheep!
and of course, the roads were all gravel then, no tarmac, see this cloud of dust across there.
and er if you see it was coming towards of course you run into them, but if they were going the other way course the dust still keep going.
but but of course this was many years ago.
never see a flock of sheep on the road now.
it's all done with cars.
you wouldn't like this dairy you wouldn't.
it er oh!
it used to be occasional or more perhaps, sometimes show time different shows and that.
so many sheep or, ha show time see, you see these flocks of shop but now you always 
been to a cattle market.
that's a long time ago because se the roads have been tarmacked for goodness knows how long now!
i can remember when the first bit of tarmac was put on a road round here and that down here at upton bypass and all 
oh yes!
what they call upton bypass.
yeah.
oh it was er cry over war wound!
oh!
horses will never be able to stand on it!
it's slippery and that.
what a state they were in then!
my father had er, horses at that time and my uncle out at holt, he had some horses they were talking about this one day and uncles would say well a horse didn't work nearly as hard with that road's were nice and solid.
father said well it's, it's so slippery they can't stand on them.
but it wasn't, it wasn't slippery see, but they thought it would be.
yeah.
an oh!
i can remember when that upton bypass, when it was done the cry there was about that!
mm.
course, it it used to be the old rough gravel road.
can you remember ascot road?
mm?
ascot road?
ascot, oh!
er no 
the little shack
mm.
then, it was meant to be the oldest house.
mm.
no.
no.
do you know what i'm saying?
yeah.
no?
yeah.
oh yeah.
aye, aye, aye, aye.
just off clarendon road, dad.
eh?
just off clarendon road.
clarendon road?
er ooh yes!
clarendon road, yeah.
course i ye , i walked up the top of clarendon road there when a i was first going out to work up there old bill .
yeah.
mm.
i can remember that.
well 
mm.
it's a road that goes through there to swingdale road and there's a little place in there.
little blue and white wooden hut.
mhm.
it was.
i dunno.
over my uncle er old harry he had a house around clarendon road er oh i dunno!
there wasn't many houses there at that time.
mm mm.
we built our house there.
mm?
erm it was meant to be the oldest house in erm broadstone
ah?
and we built our hou , not, bought the plot of land and built our own house on it.
well old harry shared with my uncle he had his house and he bought a piece of land on the bottom of his garden and he built wall on his or this piece along the bottom of his garden, but er i couldn't tell you, it wasn't very far up the road.
but er yeah i know.
but i haven't been up to cla clarendon road for some time now.
er ha!
there used to be a a house on the end of the common up at clarendon road, the opposite side oh!
er old mrs i dunno, but th , anyway there was only this one old house up in the common and er i went up there one time with horse and take a couple of pigs from there down to wimborne market.
but i suppose the old house has pulled down under pressure and built on now but that was the only house going up through there in them days.
that was a very old house!
wimborne market's supposed to be old.
mm?
wimborne market must be very old!
oh lord, yes!
course we , wimborne cattle market is finished now isn't it?
i went to a cattle market in 
mm.
devon
mm.
with my aunt.
ah yeah.
er ha !
wimborne market every tuesday and wimborne horse sale every other friday.
used to have horse sale every fortnight, see every other friday.
ha!
you wouldn't think that there was a enough business to want a horse sale once a fortnight would you?
but mm.
course, it was horses in them days, not motorcars.
i can remember first motorcar that we drove in old charlie 's.
old charlie's car wooden spokes, wooden wheels solid tyres and he used to sit up right in there same as i am now, like in a box and the old chauffeur was the chauffeur driving along.
and i suppose they go along about i don't expect they do about six miles an hour.
just, chug, chug, chug, chug.
at least it was some other form of transport than a horse.
oh yes!
gave the horses a bit of a rest.
mm.
er er er er er er
i would think the mo , motorcar nowadays can go up to something like two hundred odd miles now is it?
yeah.
mm.
and when you see them racing on the television!
mm.
oh yeah.
ah!
but don't matter what it is everything is increasing in speed.
now you see in my days on the railway sixty miles an hour was a good speed for a train it di it didn't reckon to do much more than that see.
i know er, down at corfe junction or a one road across or one another across or there was one road going to wimborne, one going to broadstone, up road and down road.
and of course, they had these signs up about la up close to a signal er twenty, twenty five or thirty or whatever it was, that was miles an hour, they were supposed to reduce to that.
and er i can remember one day a driver, len his name was and he er he said to the inspector, oh he says er i've been through corfe junction he said at sixty miles an hour!
what!
ooh he said, you don't wanna make a song about it!
but he said, i have done.
and er course, that where the restrictions was on see at the and of course, after that, a few years after that, of course take no notice of it now.
it all goes on the same.
er er it were just the same on a motorcycle the faster he'll go the better they'd like it!
it's still the same nowadays isn't it?
you get the youngsters that hare off down the road .
mm.
ah.
what's this, the news on now margaret?
yeah.
oh!
do you want it?
sorry?
do you want the news?
i don't mind.
mm.
if you'd like to put it on a little louder.
i think we'll be away dad because 
ah?
it's coming in quite foggy.
is it?
yeah.
mm.
you got that er, ticket margaret.
yes, i'll get your si , your things for you tomorrow.
ah.
well i hope you've been able to pick up a bit of something but i'm not very good at it myself cos old days and old times.
just casual talking.
he said he well he said 
yeah.
course, cars.
you'll have enjoyed doing it won't you dad?
yeah.
yeah, cos i'm ont' other.
i said er uncle cecil made that cabinet there didn't he margaret?
we're leaving that shit hole of a country!
what was it like?
yeah, simon said there was a
crappy!
simon said there was a dead cat er outside your first hotel and the brothel across the road .
yes.
that one.
ha!
how did you know it was a brothel?
how many do you mean ?
well it was quite obvious!
that queer, that queer in the brothel!
in the brothel.
brothel.
oh it was 
yeah!
so funny !
!
about the brothel !
come on!
he'd been talking to these erm greek blokes and they invited him into this bar for erm 
a drink, all these sex and he went, and he went in and
you know like when you have where you have like a flat between you if you're a student.
yeah.
yeah.
but if other person changes 
so you can share.
their mind, something 
yeah.
like that then
like you could be having fun.
when somebody can't keep up with their 
oh yeah!
oh yeah!
during the holiday.
oh yeah, and you say 
yeah.
how's ?
like, this is what becky was saying, it's like have you ?
and you say i'm gonna move out, you know.
and you try and find a place but you can't find one but you said you're moving out so you've got to go along with it.
you're constantly and a motorway going through your house so they give you less than the pro than the market value 
yeah , value for it.
value for it.
yeah.
mm.
people that have come in contact with him so should be
sally army's one !
social workers.
yeah i know.
ha!
ha!
supposed to be.
yeah.
sally army.
everyone, everybody's 
they all know all about that!
helping on the 
what was, mm mm?
street because they
yeah!
yeah!
money for a cup 
water.
of tea!
yeah.
so everybody's sort 
yeah.
of, everybody 
police.
sort of has to walk past them.
police!
police, yeah, we said all people on 
and there's all those people that have the big signs that say 
ambulances.
oh yeah.
the standard, you think, oh!
you know !
especially on the underground.
yeah!
half of them could be really rich and just don't think 
ya.
there's nobody there.
erm 
cos on some of them, wouldn't it, you do have them really rich!
well apparently, they do that every day 
no, apparently some people do it every day.
wait!
pe , up to london 
they get about a hu , they get about a hundred a day 
this poor guy's got a day off!
just from begging and things!
no, cos one of them kept going up to london for the we week and then went back home at the weekends and he had this lovely house!
you know 
yeah.
kept travelling up and down.
yeah.
should write to railway 
erm 
then.
yeah!
transport places.
we got some of them before.
no you don't know 
right!
.
what does it take 
well any 
for one or two or 
hospitals.
and you start being unwilling to do 
yeah.
bloody do anything!
hospitals which 
yeah.
deal with them.
oh you put hospitals 
lost my, lost my door key !
yeah people getting fed up and the hospitals 
and erm yeah, something like that, yeah!
getting, getting, into the real world and they 
yeah.
yeah.
and they can't 
yeah.
get out.
erm
people getting out mental hospitals.
that's what simmone just said !
oh yeah!
that's what i just said !
oh right.
i'm sorry!
yeah erm
actually i couldn't stand that, i don't think!
yeah.
yeah.
mm.
either that or they've been proved well 
people who've been let out of jail as well.
oh yeah!
yeah.
and passed out.
er marriage break up is one cause.
oh yeah!
mm.
the woman might get kicked out by the ex-wife or your boyfriend or 
yeah.
mm.
the husband.
people with .
go bankrupt or
well why, why can't we 
yeah.
some animals!
oh yeah!
squirrels who've had their trees cut down !
yeah they go, i'm a squirrel!
hee hee hee!
ee!
ee!
ee!
the lion ran away from the zoo because he wasn't get fed enough!
the panda ran away because he wasn't getting enough!
oh no!
we're not going to have 
have you heard that joke?
the joke now!
shh!
have i now?
it's a really good joke!
i know.
no!
don't!
yo you might have !
there's this panda and he's really bored with, i mean he's, he's getting no sex so he breaks out of erm london zoo to go off and find a partner.
and he walks into this brothel and, there's this prostitute and well business is not going well 
she's going to undre , yes you do probably,
yeah.
so anyway, she hires so he hires this prostitute and they, they go upstairs and he gets a bit hungry so sarnie and they get down to the serious business
shh!
and he won't
in the tree
and tell me, tell me this how did you leave home?
i do drink socially.
cos we haven't got much time.
i am .
yeah, what sort of wedding?
why did you, why did you leave home?
how did i left home?
i didn't leave home.
i, put me in a detention centre because i was shoplifting and i didn't like it there so i left!
tt tt tt tt tt tt tt tt!
what is your name?
sarah.
from london?
where do you come from?
i come from london.
oh!
that's very original!
and where do you normally live?
where are you homeless now?
i'm, in manchester at the moment.
i knew you were gonna say manchester!
how old are?
have you cut holes in your trousers to put 
sixteen.
big triangles of cloth in and turn them into flares then ?
no!
not quite!
do you go begging?
well sometimes, but sometimes i just pickpocket it's much easier that way.
have you turned to prostitution as a way of getting money?
no, i don't think that's a really good idea, it's not safe.
it's not .
do you sleep in shop doorways or do you go to a hostel so sometimes?
well, i haven't got much money but well sometimes i do go to hostels, yeah but, most of the time i just sleep anywhere i can find a shelter.
bus shelters are quite helpful.
have you ever thought about going back home?
i was gonna say that!
no.
i don't i if it would be no point.
but why?
so you're saying it's better on the streets than at home?
yeah.
is it worse 
you're giving up before you've even tried!
do you think you should try?
what is the point in trying?
because you might find out it works and then you wouldn't have 
but my mother wouldn't care about me!
how do you know that?
how can you be so sure?
cos she beats me up!
fine!
can't say anything to that!
well that could just be a sort of way of life.
i mean, when people get beaten up when they're younger it me 
this is true, i saw it on a t v programme
carry on.
they can erm it can affect them in their later life and they hit out at people to show their affection.
mm!
don't believe that!
she never said a nice word to me in my life!
haven't you got any other relatives where you could go?
no, i wouldn't go near them!
they're all snotty nosed little
mm.
don't you 
but not 
think you're being a little thoroughly class conscious?
no.
i think you've got some, some attitude problems!
they don't care about me , so why should i care about them!
yes, i think you've got a serious attitude problem!
right, go easy then.
oh!
who wants to go next anyway?
oh well, shall we go to becky's ?
the loonies?
well what do you think about her then?
come on?
ha!
ha !
right!
how old are you?
i'm thirty three thank you!
and erm where do you come from?
surrey.
how long have you been homeless?
er three years.
why are you homeless?
because i used to be in a mental institution but they said i was well so i'm allowed out now.
but i haven't got anywhere to go to.
mm.
haven't you got any living relatives that you could go and see?
no.
whenever i phone them up they all pretend to have emigrated to australia.
oh!
surely the place would have the mental institution would have set you up with a home or something when you left?
no.
where did they put you then?
they can't have just turfed you out?
they can and they do i think.
oh dear.
why don't you pretend to be still mad and go back?
i don't think she needed to tell you!
and where do you spend your days?
i mean, do you do you sort of wander round the street jabbering to people like this?
no, actually 
number one, number two 
or number three?
or er number three.
i make sure i ride on every bus going and sit next to somebody who really doesn't want to sit next to me!
how do you get the money to pay for the bus fares?
i !
no, i just sort of accost people and talk to them and normally they pay me to go away!
have you ever thought of prostitution?
i'm not that bad!
excuse me!
are you male or female 
i'd just like to ask?
i've forgotten which !
er, do you get any cooked meals a day?
no.
no.
what do you eat?
don't you ever go down to the hostels or down 
well 
or sometimes?
i want to know what you eat?
i mean
i hadn't thought about that !
well it's,sa samantha's going to have a go now.
!
who else is gonna be a counsellor 
i will.
oh well.
it's mine.
is it mine?
oh that's okay then.
do you want to?
you don't have to be homeless by the way.
no.
don't you?
i 
no.
i want to someone and i don't want to be homeless!
you co , you could be a social worker or something.
alright , i'll be a social worker.
okay.
you could be the minister in charge of 
hello!
hello!
you'll be good at that!
what's your name then?
er, my name is erm mr .
are you homeless or
no, she's a social worker.
no i'm not homeless i'm gonna try and help you are
you're going to try and help us then are you?
if i can, yeah.
what do you think it is that causes homelessness?
well, we've just had a discussion about this in the hall.
oh right!
no.
erm a lot of things.
have you, have you encountered many problems with homelessness?
are you 
a lot of problems.
is that, is that your erm main area?
lots and lots of problems!
yeah.
can i ask a personal question?
as a social worker do you have a beard?
yeah!
i thought so!
oh dear!
yes you , and do you wear do you wear sandals?
no, i wear shoes.
they're a bit cold when you're walking out on the streets.
erm are you, how old are you by the way?
erm, i'm forty three.
forty three.
do you live in a big house or what kind of house 
no.
do you live in?
i live in , i live in a three bedroom semi-detached house
have you got a family?
on the outskirts of london.
have you got any family?
you got a family?
erm, erm no, i'm divorced.
divorced?
ha , any children?
what sort of er 
erm , two.
two children?
and they're with my wife.
how old are they?
erm three and nine.
girls?
boys?
erm, two girls.
mhm.
what sort of things do you do to help the homeless?
well basically erm, i go around in some of the streets and try and help people, families who have missed they've lost their chi , erm lost people and try and reunite them.
what if they don't want to be reunited, can't that cause problems?
yes it can.
i find some people on the streets are quite like, pigheaded and they don't really want to go back for some reason really.
mm.
but maybe they've got problems that they can't go back for?
yeah, they have got problems and that's why erm, people like us come along and try and help them.
have any of 
wha 
the homeless people actually ever been taken into care, like foster and ah, adoption?
erm, yes quite a few times actually.
especially when abuse is inc be erm
abuse.
abuse.
where people have been 
aha.
abused.
do they run away again though?
sometimes that is the case.
unfortunately.
ah!
very good!
anyone else?
i haven't been.
yes i'd to talk to her.
you want to do it?
i want 
hello!
to have a say !
how am i?
i'm alright thank you.
is yo , what's your name?
and how old are you?
forty.
and what do you do?
me?
i don't do anything!
haven't you got a job?
no!
do you o , come from essex or something ?
yes!
an essex girl!
no!
i don't live in essex, i live in surrey!
and erm, are you homeless then?
mm?
homeless?
are you kidding!
no i am not!
or surrey.
well, have you got anything to link with these homeless people?
yes!
they accost me in the street every time i walk every time i walk down for money, they're 
do you e 
terrible!
do you ever give them any money?
of course i don't give them any money!
bearing in mind that you're rich enough to live in surrey, and some people can't even afford a roof over their head don't you think you have a moral obligation towards these people?
it's not my problem!
yeah.
if they're stupid enough to be homeless!
well maybe sometimes it's not their fault.
most of the time people don't want to be 
yeah.
on the street.
but how do you know that?
i mean, how could you be so sure it isn't their fault?
they tell us.
well those people out on the streets tell me that all the time.
i mean, have you seen the reports?
of course i've seen the reports!
i'm not blind!
well the majority of them are a , abused or get thrown out of mental centres, i mean, some of them just run away from home because they want to and that's only a minority, lots of them have 
i mean 
very good reasons!
well it's still not my problem is it?
yeah!
it's everybody's problem!
stop voting conservative you stupid old bag!
yeah , and if you vote for 
there's nothing wrong with being conservative!
i i if labour ca party came in the unemployment would be, unemployment, homelessness would be 
have you got a family?
even worse!
of course i've got a family!
how large?
if you don't mind me asking?
i have three children!
how old are they?
and have any of them contemplated running away?
well how do i know!
i would !
there's one's fourteen, one's sixteen, and one's nineteen.
are they all still living at home?
yes.
yeah.
well apart from the nineteen year he's gone to university.
oh!
which one 
may i ask?
cambridge, of course!
did he get in on merit or did you just pay a phenomenally am , large amount of cash for him?
merit!
well
yeah sure!
very hard to believe i think!
but if you go and look down in your statements now just to check that !
go on , it's your turn now.
i want to know how you actually do that.
oh yes you did!
i will.
i will.
go on.
er, i'm doing it with 
go on, check your bank's 
homeless, okay?
oh!
you haven't done it!
you haven't 
hello.
what's your name?
and where do you come from.
this sounds like a quiz game show 
blind date!
or something!
hey!
what's your name?
where do you come from?
oh i'm !
and where are you homeless?
right.
paul.
and, how old are?
twenty.
and what's your name?
sarah?
sarah what?
.
that's not very good.
no, you can't start using real people!
oh sorry!
i didn't realise.
i didn't realise 
oh yeah.
it was.
it was the first name that came into my head!
sarah .
oh!
yeah!
sure!
no.
sarah 
okay.
anyway.
okay.
what's your name?
sarah what?
sarah smith.
and how long have you been homeless?
about six months.
why are you homeless?
well i used to share a, share this flat with my mate and erm you know, she got a bit out of hand, she kept bringing all these people home and she kept having these parties and it was really difficult for me to study cos i used to go well i still try to go to college, but erm you know, it was really hard for me to study and made my life really, really difficult!
isn't it more difficult now though, if you're homeless?
ya.
how do you get time to study?
well, you know i, just doesn't really matter any more, the point is surviving.
but i mean, when i was living with her we just had all these arguments cos, you know, i just never got any peace!
there are sometimes i could find this quiet little place somewhere and just think, you know, it's really nice.
but, what about your family?
can't you go home?
well, i could do but i, you see, i haven't got the money to get home and you know 
where do you live then?
i live up in scotland somewhere.
somewhere?
oh great!
that's very
inverness?
aberdeen?
no, some just erm
somewhere!
do you beg?
by loch lomond.
do you beg?
oh yeah!
well, sometimes, but you see you know, people aren't willing to give anymore.
and there's so many homeless people that
mm.
you know you try to 
do you blame them?
well yes!
of course i do!
i mean, if it wasn't for them and the way they voted!
i mean
oh!
so you think that maybe a, a labour government wou , could solve all these problems?
no not really.
god!
i mean, no government could.
erm what can we ?
it's got so out of hand , nobody could!
what do you eat?
erm anything i can find really.
marks and spencer's sandwich!
ho how long is it since 
how long is it since you've had a cooked meal?
and muller yoghurt.
erm i was lucky erm 
i like muller yoghurt!
place on sunday and they gave me a meal.
oh!
delicious aren't they?
do you ever got to church?
which is your favourite?
no.
i don't know.
no.
so you're not religious at all?
i don't know.
i like crunchy one tha , that one.
i used to be, but you know it's nothing re 
i haven't tried the crunchy one.
i al , i u 
i find it difficult to believe in it any more after what's it done me, you know.
cos i like the .
i like the peach mainly.
and it's really difficult to believe in things like that?
do you want me to done to you?
yeah.
we got one person now but 
well you know feeling er 
ee ah!
just one person.
ya!
yeah , dawn.
yeah.
you should, you should only have about one person 
yes.
like that.
i've, you know, i feel i've trusted him all my life you know, an now i find myself in this situation.
it's difficult!
thank you very much.
now here we have another girl here.
hello!
no we bloody don't!
yes we do dawn!
you do!
you do!
or what dawn!
you have to do it!
if the rest of us do, you do!
hello!
i'm not really keen to do this!
what's your name?
and 
dawn.
where do you come from?
and where do you come from?
from worthing.
what's your family situation.
dead boring isn't it?
and what's your favourite male?
no, what's your family situation?
do you like danger mouse ?
yes i love danger mouse!
mr .
.
what's your family situation?
how do you mean?
have you got a family?
are you living at home?
are you living at home?
are you homeless?
are you social worker?
are you a
yeah i'm, i have 
a policeman?
yes, i'm living at home but i'm also married and i've been married three times before, and i've got six children now.
sounds like hundred!
except , half have them have gone away which is nice cos i didn't like them anyway!
you don't seem to have a very caring attitude 
oh i see!
for your family.
no.
no i haven't really.
no.
i don't like them!
so what happened?
you left them?
are you surprised that they run away?
how many people i , in your, are there actually in your household at his moment in time?
is this including milk men or not ?
nine and a dog.
where does the other nine gone?
so there's you and your partner 
well he sort of left.
and seven children?
how do you work that out?
you said you had six children 
children 
and three of them had run away.
three of them had run away.
i didn't say three of them had run away!
yes you did!
you did!
you did!
i didn't!
i said half of them.
yes, which is three !
well that is three !
yeah, but there's a difference isn't there, between saying half and three?
yes i have only got three children left.
a daughter and 
so how come there's so 
just listen!
people in the house then?
is it 
aha.
your grandmother there?
are you having to sleep in the 
your mother?
?
people in the house!
look!
right.
i told you i'm still living at home, right?
yeah.
this is , my mother, my father, my sister my brother, me, my husband, one, two, three children.
oh really!
and the dog!
and the dog, yeah.
and 
woof!
whisky.
woof!
what sor 
what sort of dog?
do yo 
a mongrel.
right.
and do you get on very well with all of your family but, actually living there?
not really, no.
no.
can't you afford to find you know, your own house or rent a place?
would you, if you had the chance 
well not really, no.
find your children that had run away?
probably not.
it's their choice to run away.
how old were they when they did run away?
mm one was seventeen, one was six, and
making the choice !
no.
no.
my hu , my six year old ran away, but 
yeah but when 
then came back, and then ran away again 
so, aren't you concerned him?
he tried to go out the door but she reached him back, but she hasn't 
aren't you concerned about how he's living?
gone to him!
erm
ah!
ah!
ah!
and how he's surviving?
he might even be dead for all you know!
that's sweet!
don't you care?
well
aren't you a bit, the slightest worried 
why 
you're not concerned?
why did you have children then if you weren't prepared to 
yeah.
look after them suitably?
erm my religion forbid the use of contraception.
could we 
ya.
have that off.
yeah.
i think everybody
now, anorexia is much written and talked about, but perhaps not accurately, how would you define anorexia?
i would say that the criteria that's that's sent out at the moment is is far too strict for the lot, a lot of women and at the moment you're expected to be skeletal, whereas th , you can very well be thirteen stone and anorexic it's, it depends on your attitude towards food.
we have to find criteria for anorexia 
mhm.
nervosa which essentially means, er loss of body weight or fifteen percent your normal preoccupation with weight, and loss of your periods for three months and a morbid fear of gaining weight.
and, why, you may argue that those criteria are too strict, those are criteria that are used in a medical sense.
well perhaps while we're doing it all, we're talking about anorexia, we should talk about the er, the associated erm, disorder, bulimia, which is only recently become something that people are generally aware of.
wo wo would you like to offer er, a definition of of of bulimia as well?
well bulimia nervosa is a disorder of binging.
er, these binges take places regularly and they may amount to between three to five thousand calories in one binge.
what does that mean, three to five thousand calories?
i mean er 
a normal day you might eat two, three and a half thousand calories so within one short period of eating you would take in maybe double that.
er, associated with that are certain behaviours, typically vomiting, laxative abuse, erm, use of diuretics which are water tablets or excessive exercising.
again, there are very many over-valued ideas about weight and what that means to the individual and a pre-occupation with weight.
i believe that the root cause of anorexia and people who binge and in fact, they are failed anorexics really!
there's, there's,th the the aim is the same, the aim is not to not to gain weight er and the control has been lost when th when it's necessary to binge.
but, i believe that the root cause of ano , is is a is a deep-seated unhappiness in the individual.
mhm.
erm, i would agree that erm, what you saying about the anorexic thing and the fact that's it's a sort of deep-seated unhappiness, but i think that's far too general.
you know, i think that erm, this idea of anorexics being, erm sorry, bulimics being failed anorexics is, a wee bit kind of unfair!
erm, i think the sort of emotional erm sort of like characteristics of both eating disorders are very, very similar.
but i think the reasons why bulimics need to binge, erm is completely different from what than, erm 
an emotion that an anorexic could be suffering from.
it's er more to do with the feeling of, it's like filling gaps erm 
yep.
erm, emotional gaps , boredom,go you know, just a whole sort of like range of various emotions.
erm, where possibly like the, the anorexic, well i don't know cos i'm not speaking from an anorexic point of view, but i think the, the point we're saying, emotions are there but they're dealt with in a, a different way, you know they perhaps starve themselves erm, to sort of like, erm you know ge , get across these emotions, to deal with these emotions.
mhm.
yes?
and one of the differences that anorexia can become much more visible and identifiable, whereas those of us who have experienced bulimia, which i had for thirteen years, can be extremely secret and well disguised because we normally don't change from normal body weight.
what's the difference between bulimia and compulsive eating?
is there a difference.
well, in the definition that we heard, it tends to be associated with, with trying to rid your body of the food that you've consumed during a binge.
compulsive eating normally doesn't go to that extent.
how did you stop bu bu bulimia, i mean it was 
in the end it was the 
thirteen years of binging i mean 
yeah.
wha what effect does that have on you?
erm, it it, it makes it very, very difficult to imagine how you'll recover erm, but in the end it's a personal decision to, to try to achieve self respect, to care for yourself better, to adopt good habits of nutrition and exercise, not dieting, cos diets are the biggest con trick of all and certainly, to rid your life of people who don't respect and accept you the way you are.
can you identify why you began doing it?
i mean, how old were you when you started er binging?
fifteen.
yes.
fifteen?
i was certainly to do with feeling that i would have to be a little bit slimmer, that i would have to be acceptable to other people, that i would have to change my shape and at the same time, i could not resist consuming large amounts of food.
now, fifteen seems terribly young
that's right.
for a girl to start, to start worrying about that kind of thing!
is is that a societal pressure?
i mean is it a ah,th wi , is there any history of it in the family an and, what did your family, did you family know?
families don't generally know.
and it, it wasn't until many years later that i told anyone at all that's, that's the thing i was saying about bulimia, it's very secret.
and in the end, did you, i mean wha , did you get the support of of professionals or or
yes.
erm, but in the end th o only one had any impact and in general,see seeing a female professional was, i have to say, a lot more helpful than seeing male professionals.
mm.
yes?
er, my experience is slightly different when erm when i had been trying to sort of recover, i didn't, i didn't feel as if i've get any help from professionals that i approached.
and in fact, i get an awful lot of support from friends erm, not family because my family aren't, weren't aware of it, erm but i mean, really it came from fre , really close friends that i could sit down and talk to and that could understand me and accept me, just like what the girl said as well.
mm mm.
yes?
i think my g p actually sent me further down hill into anorexia after i'd lost about, about when i was seven stone i went to see her, i'd never seen her before and she said well you look perfectly acc , sociably acceptable to me so i went on to lose two more stone before going back to see her and was admitted to hospital as a medical emergency!
and, did continue to get professional help after that, but i think she was actually one of the factors that sent me further down, by telling me i looked well!
what age were you then?
twenty.
yeah.
and can you identify why yo wa was, are yo are you now over it?
are you 
yeah i would class myself as a recovered anorexic, but as recovered as i'll ever be!
i don't think i'll ever totally get over it.
i've still got a very distorted body image that i have to live with.
i think i'm fat!
the reality of anorexia for you was what, just not eating at all?
cutting down on food, i was university missing whole meals, telling people i was training, i'm a p e teacher so sport and the perfect body was very much up front, so the more weight i lost the better i was told i looked until it became totally out of control and i was eating an apple and black coffee a day and then vomiting so that i had nothing in me.
erm my metabolism was out the window.
now, as a p e teacher you're working what, boys and girls?
yes.
do you see ah,th the pe , the boys and girls or the, the young people that you're working with erm, having the same veering towards the same kind of thing, i mean, do you see pressures on on girls, towards achieving that perfect body in the way that you felt it yourself at one time.
i see boys calling the girls fat and it makes my hair stand on end!
erm it goes on continually and these poor girls are oh you're fat!
you've got a great big bottom!
and they're not, they don't have, they're normal.
i wonder what you think of what you're hearing?
yes?
i just wondered how much actual help professionals are?
i mean, is is there really enough help given?
i mean, we talk about eating disorders
yeah.
but do they really actually dig into the the real reasons for the eating disorders or they just try and get you back onto a stable diet?
yes?
i think what put me off in th and certainly em embedded was some of the comments as around control of our lives.
mhm.
and maybe hope that we as, as people as women need to do is regain control of our lives so they, they belong to us, so it doesn't matter if if boys say we've got fat bottoms or not,yo you say my bottom's alright an and you live with that.
i'd be interested to know the lady who mentioned that, er she got help from friends, what sort of help did she get from her friends?
i mean, how can you help someone with a a problem like this?
how best can you help someone with a problem like this?
it was really, really difficult!
erm, she started really by, well th well there is two of them involved at the time, but they started by reading a book on the subject and really just talking to me about it certainly, because i mean they really didn't understand, you know because food to them is just food, you know it was just some meal they had to eat because they were hungry and they couldn't understand why i had got this whole thing completely distorted.
erm there was a, i mean there was a lot of friction, i mean, i mean i'm really lucky to have the strength of a friendship that i did because you know, if, i wouldn't have got, you know where i am, sort of without it, i think.
aye, so you related to that more than you would rela , related to a professional, a doctor or someone 
erm, when i first approached 
trying to help you?
doctors they started putting me on anti-depressants, tranquilizers, sleeping pills erm, and you know, they were, their whole manner was just absolutely terrible!
i mean, i felt that, it made me worse as well, by going to them and i decided that i would never go back to them again, you know.
that's quite interesting!
is it a , yes there?
can i just sort of say i'm i'm somebody working on a team er, that deals with eating disorders.
i think things have changed quite dramatically in the last few years certainly, we admit very few people and we see them mostly as an outpatient.
i think it actually depends where you go to to seek help and who your first erm person that you go to
mhm.
i mean there is a, i don't know if anybody saw there was a a programme on, it was actually b b c, erm, this week, it was about somebody who felt that she was very overweight and actually had her stomach stapled!
and i mean, i find that really horrendous!
i think your g p is maybe one of the first places to go but the trouble, i think, with people with eating problems is it's very hard to explain what the problem is.
mhm.
and i think that's what a lot of problem with condemned by the g p is is they're not able to articulate the unhappiness that's coming from the eating disorder, so they're told to go away and put on a couple of pounds and because they haven't expressed that feeling the g p can't or isn't thinking enough to try and and poke into it a little bit more.
so what would be better?
i think, one of the most important things is finding a trusting friend or a member of family so that you can then try express some of the feelings so that you're in a better position erm, to try and explain the problem.
one of the great difficulties is that many young people find it extremely difficult to admit that they have a problem.
and in fact, even with as many professionals as one would wish it's often extremely difficult to actually engage people in treatment erm, and the whole process of getting people into treatment or into health can be very difficult, both for the young person and for the therapist or helper involved.
i don't want to give the impression that professionals are unhelpful at all.
i mean carole said earlier, it's a question of eventually making your mind up that you want to do something about it, but then professionals are maybe there to assist.
what you've described must be something that erm that that families of people who are suffering from eating disorders must feel very much, that there's nothing that they can do to, to to help.
families feel very rejected by professionals erm, in my research i've found that er, the families of younger sufferers tend to be involved in treatment but they feel very much that they're under the microscope, that they disapprove, that they're seen as being pathological families.
with older sufferers, erm, usually families are excluded from treatment, they're kept out, they're told that they're daughter erm must be seen on her own and they feel very helpless and very unloved and unsupported by by the professionals.
mm.
erm, in fact, i've found that the families are no different from any other families, there's no typical anorexic family.
i think erm yo e you know you asked about the support and i think having identified that there was a gap in the support in 
mhm.
times of i mean, i actually think it's a an awful lot of ask of a friendship, or of a family situation and also, indeed, if you i mean i think sometimes they can be very supportive but th the true understanding may not be there and erm i think that's what led me to start up a self- help group in edinburgh erm which is, has been erm running for the last two years now.
and, i think that level of real understanding that you do get from fellow sufferers, and indeed, it's a su , it's a support for erm families as well who are able to come along and, and share that kind of support.
mhm.
after my own experiences i wo i wouldn't advice someone not to go to their g p, but firstly, i would advice them to contact the eating disorders association er, because they are very helpful and they're more supportive than any g p i've ever come across.
okay.
yes?
you mentioned er, earlier about yo , the fact that you were surprised that it was fifteen year olds, and that was quite young
yeah.
and yet, in fact, that's the time when you're most vulnerable yo , it's time of puberty, your
mhm.
interested in fashion, your interested in the opposite sex and th the ages between fifteen and eighteen teenagers ar , tend to be faddy, if it's not er, their body shape th th , it's vegetari , vegetarianism.
i think there's a third fact that you touched on earlier that i think it's just worth mentioning and that is that we know it's also a genetic pre-disposition to anorexia nervosa, in other words, we know that in certain families it is a disorder that will run from one generation to another.
na , yes?
erm, i'd consider myself to have an eating disorder but i don't have anorexia or bulimia.
and er, i first started feeling i was overweight when i fourteen and i was, i was twelve stone and i went to the doctor and got black capsules to take which had me as high as a kite for a long time!
and then there were the the dose was reduced and then i had to come off them altogether and after twenty nine years of dieting unsuccessfully i gave up dieting and i haven't put on any weight since i gave up dieting!
and, and what sto , why did you stop?
erm, a friend started a a self-help group which i went to.
and i realised, well i had realised for a long time that dieting wasn't the answer for me.
and erm
oh so, over twenty nine years you're saying that food was controlling your life, in a way?
oh yes!
very much so!
i mean that was , that was the dominant thing, was wha what you 
i could have told you every single item of food i had in the cupboard every, down to the last bean!
and now i don't know.
i have sweets lying on the counter, i don't have to take them if i don't want to.
i'm not controlled by food any more, and i don't feel guilty any more.
i think the lady who said earlier when you go to your g p you can't express yourself
mm.
i went to my g p, having avoided her for fifteen years, having getting the old story every time you went well you must go on a diet!
i had been on diets and to put it in context, over twenty years i've lost a hundred and twenty stone!
which if you break it down is only about a pound and three quarters a week
and i think a lot of people are like that.
but, when you look at it in that context it becomes very much erm, part of your life, and it takes an awful lot to break that habit and there's no help.
up there.
i think it's very easy to fall into the trap of feeling guilty.
mm.
erm, i went on a diet last year, to one of these clubs and, within record time got to the weight i was supposed to be, calorie counting and then i had to come off and i found for weeks after feelings of terrible guilt if i ate 
mm.
a chocolate biscuit!
i was mentally calorie counting every time, it took me ages to get back to a sort of normal life.
can you identify th that the point at which worrying about food, we've all agreed we shouldn't be, but there it is we do, er pitches you into eating disorder and er i know ca , is is there preventive action to be taken apart from changing society completely?
yes?
i think it's when you become inappropriately absorbed around the areas of food i think, too, because i work with teenagers
mm.
that early intervention is the best way of coping with it, and certainly it demands that parents and friends and teachers, and people concerned are aware of any change which is sustained over a period because by early intervention then you're probably coping with the problem rather than the eating disorder, because the problem is there before the eating disorder.
erm, can intervention, as you call it, be effective do you think?
very!
if it's early, before the pattern's really entrenched.
yes?
i think it's wrong to underestimate erm i i it's particularly initially, how, how positively reinforced it can, it can be around you erm, just this the idea of losing weight and that er you know, people will be wha , for whatever reasons are, either envious or they want to know how you can do it, they want to know, and particularly if it's linked with exercise then it's all very good things to do and you know, the media's telling you and a , everyone's telling that this healthy lifestyle that actually then goes out of control through being so controlled erm e e , there's a, well there's a thin line between it, being a very positive experience, and you're suddenly buying smaller jeans and erm you know, it's just everything is is feeding, if that's the right word, this idea that it, that that it's tremendous to be 
mm.
losing weight, to realising that you can't do anything about it.
i think the advice i would give any mother of an anorexic is to tell them how awful they look!
i wish i'd been told early on what i looked like and what i was doing to my body.
nobody wanted to be cruel enough to hurt me because they thought i was so vulnerable at that time and i really wish i'd been told that i looked disgusting!
but at another level, if we could show love, respect and acceptance for each other in the magnificent diversity that that we show as women, instead of patronising and attacking each other on the basis of our body shapes, that would be a great step forward!
hooray!
yes?
i'd like, i'd just say that i the the are professionals now that do know more about eating disorders and i do think there are clinics being set up.
erm, we do know quite a lot about erm, why it is that when you diet you start to think about food all the time, and why it is that certain things happen, and i think that there's more and more information and knowledge being gathered and yes, the na , the desire to change has to come from the individual but perhaps, having clinics available where people can go when they're ready to change or where they can get help.
i think very often you do need professional help and it isn't possible to do it with family and friends because of the interaction that actually makes it worse.
so there's a practical suggestion and i, i like, i like carole's philosophical suggestion that we could start celebrating the diversity of human kind.
i mean, that's the kind of thing one often hears on this programme, is it wishful thinking or d'you think we could actually achieve it?
oh!
wahey!
yes?
i think the media have an awful lot to answer for!
yeah.
i run one of the self-help groups that one of the ladies mentioned and we looked at an outsize catalogue recently and it went up to size twenty six and in some cases up to a size thirty and the ladies who modelled the clothes were no bigger than a twelve, possibly a fourteen, but a very shapely fourteen!
mm.
mm.
so the media, even when anything you do depends on your size,yo your image is all for a woman, your brain or your ability really comes way down the line!
you have to look good first before anyone listens to your other abilities!
but looking big and good are not incompatible are they?
i was just gonna say, i i think we should possibly stop blaming the media or whatever actually happens and perhaps echo what the the lady earlier said, i think that it's in our hands, we're the women that could make this happen !
yes?
well i 
i was just si oh sorry!
i'm sorry!
one at a time!!
i was just sitting here wondering why men don't have this image problem?
because there are an awful lot of overweight men and i don't see any problem with them at all!
they don't seem to have any problems between each other either!
i'm quite concerned that my four year old daughter is after a sindy doll and wondering whether perhaps sindy dolls shouldn't be produced in erm such diverse figures as real life?
well there's an 
are we, are we providing 
an interesting idea!
our future generation with women with an ideological figure such as sindy.
a lot of ideas and certainly worth talking about it.
it's something i hope we'll talk about again.
i hope you've learnt something and i know that i have!
thanks very much for joining us.
erm a farmer bought a new tractor yesterday 
a farmer bought a new tractor yesterday, good, right can you read the next four out, er trevor
bother, winner, winter,dr driver 
that's okay
the river was very cold 
the river was very cold, right, can you do the next one four charlie
never, number 
the blazer was very warm 
the blazer was very warm, right, yeah, erm
erm, i have a, a warm jersey 
i have a warm jersey, good
remember, jack,
helicopter, er the helicopter was very big 
the helicopter was very big, good, so you've all had a chance to use one set.
can we have a look at the ones underneath, in the orange block and will you do the first one heather?
the bomber opens the gates to attract the driver 
good and the next one, charlie
when spinning its web a spider makes a clever pattern 
good 
my brother does a paper round and delivers a hundred newspapers every morning 
good
a
crossing the road always remembers stop and 
go on
ca camels in, in a desert 
yes without water, right, edward
in the modern 
hold on 
travelled by helicopter 
excellent so you've already got percentages sorted out there, can we just look at the next block of words, and hello, hello, right, no, yeah well i, yes i i think it all went great, unfortunately erm, so i really can't really consider on, on that.
but that details of that actually has a but i don't think it's a total story okay so i'll, i'll put it all down on, on paper and then we'll take it from there, okay, thanks, bye .
right, sorry about that, so shall we start this time with charlie, first four charlie, what's it say?
what's a r e saying there?
there
yes, what sort of there is that?
it's erm, nothing
there, nothing
there are
there are yes, you've got nothing on like your, there, your body is there, you're running around
right
you can't bear it any longer 
you can't bear it any longer, does that act as the same?
yes
no
no
no it doesn't does it, it's spelt in a different way isn't it?
what's that bear it any longer 
that's right b e a r that's right 
same as the animal 
it's also the animal so that you're actually left with three er words that sound the same, two of which are spelt differently and the third which is the name of an animal, okay.
they did, do then, put a pencil to there, mm you've already done it haven't it
there was lots of bare people on the beach 
oh dear me, there are lots of bare people on the beach, right, what about fare, what are you going to do about that?
what sort of fare is that?
er for hair
no this is fare
oh, oh yeah 
how do you spell , how do you spell fair for fair haired?
f a i r
f a i r yes and this one is f a r e
no that's spelt the other way f a i r anyone help him?
f a r e what does it mean?
is it, it was a fair idea
no that's the same as
erm was it like erm you gave me a fair amount of
no, that's the same thing, you're going on a journey
no oh you are slow, come on you're going on a journey, not in a car
fairly long time
ah, no 
journey
journey, we're going to travel, right
no, you're getting warm, no, no
a fare ticket
a fare ticket, yes a ticket.
what is the fare?
how much does it cost to get there?
and that's how you spell fare for that f a r e, alright, okay?
yes
the next one then er
hare, now what sort of hare is that?
rabbit
yes, it's, it is the same sort of family as a rabbit a hare.
how do you spell the other sort of hare?
h a i r
h a i r and that is the hair that's on your head, i've got long hair, dark hair.
now what about, what's the next word?
scare 
scare 
scare, now put that in a sentence
erm,
what sort of word is scare?
erm a kind of, when you boo somebody it's scare
yes so it's a scare, so what kind of word is it?
come on get it right
is it, er, can i put it in a sentence?
no, would you tell me what sort of word it is remembering what we did at the beginning of the week
yeah, but that's the, what it means, i want to know what kind of a word it is 
yes i know it's spelt
is it a verb?
no it's not a verb, come on, what is it
a noun
yes it's a noun, it's a name of something isn't it?
because we were doing that at the beginning of the week, a scare, you could actually get
right, so can you put it back into, into a sentence again then
shirley?
you've got a scare on, i saw dracula
we've got a scare on, we saw dracula, yes, that was it.
right what's the next word?
share
share, what does share mean?
you share out
you share out, can you put that in a sentence?
i like to share out my sweets
oh that's lovely, i like to share out my sweets
digging
digging, they're going onto double gs now, why would it be double g?
one put dig and then and then -ing
yes, but there is a rule isn't there
oh yeah
ah yes, trevor
because, because, is it cos of erm, if you put d
no, not quite, you're nearly right, come on
is it because the i sounds like
yes you would actually get, a magic e right, or a magic i making that vowel right say its long name, so it would be quite difficult to say dig giding 
right, lets try the next one, what's the next one?
er bigger
bigger that's for the same reason, there you've got an e, and so because you've got the e we can double the g to make the i go on, go on say short for
it would be beager 
it would be beager , but what is g and e say itself
g isn't it?
yeah, so you've really got to protect, you've got to protect that i, okay, so can you put bigger in a sentence trevor?
erm, er er the man was bigger than the boy
a man was bigger than the boy, good.
charlie the next one
erm parents
yes
i love my parents
oh i am pleased, i love my parents, good, spare, spare
i let someone borrow my spare pencil, i let someone borrow my spare pencil
prepare
prepare, what does that mean?
erm, you prepare something
can you put it in a sentence for me?
i prepare for my music exam
i prepare for my music exam, if you're going to do prepare, what are you going to put on the end?
yes i would care for when i had to do something, rather than just go straight into that, good
giggle
giggle, mm, we know all about that don't we?
i giggle when somebody
i giggle when somebody
erm
no if you say giggle you're actually saying the present tense, so giggles
giggles
giggles would be better, because it sounds as if they've already chosen
we all have a giggle, yes it can be a giggle until, if you're using giggle and a giggle what sort of word is it?
a noun, yeah, if you use giggles, then ashley what sort of words is it then?
what, oh dear, oh
it's not an oh dear word, no
it's a verb
thank you, it's a verb, right, to do something, so it's the same spelling that can be used in different ways.
what about the next one 
goggles
goggles
i wore my goggles in the swimming pool
i wore my goggles in the swimming pool, good
right, the next one
erm, trigger
yes
a man pulled the trigger on his gun and shot him
yes absolutely
luggage
luggage
erm, i had to have my luggage checked at the airport
i had to have my luggage checked at the airport, you see what's happened to the end of that word, look at it right, you've got age at the end because what rule is working there?
got a double g
pardon?
got a double g
no have a look, you're only looking at the beginning of it here try again
it's got the e on the end
and what sort of e is that?
not the magic, magic e
yes it's the magic e, isn't it, and what's it making that a say?
a as opposed to u isn't it, so it's really like lugg age so if you say it quickly together it becomes luggage, yeah, okay, the next one, oh sorry put it in a sentence
suggest
suggest
erm, i, i have to suggest that the erm the had er
mm, that's right, i had to suggest the captain's orders.
i suggested
how, what would you put on the end of suggested?
e d
e d, even though when we say it, it sounds like
if you said i made a suggestion, what sort of word would that be?
come on, you're all asleep, now a suggestion what would that be?
a nou 
yes come on charlie be brave, a noun, yes, a something isn't it, a, if you write a or the in front of a word it's usually a noun, okay, so just keep listening for the a and the.
the next one, trevor
erm beware
beware, right and a sentence please
beware of frankenstein
beware of frankenstein.
charlie
erm 
third one down
i had a nightmare last night
you had a nightmare last night.
what happened in your nightmare?
don't know
come back to life again
because when you woke up this morning
and the next one
juggle
juggle
erm, i know a clown that juggles
i know a clo a clown that juggles.
why couldn't you actually have j u g, one g, l e?
why couldn't you have the spelling j u g l e?
something would happen to the l
something would happen not to the l but to the vowel.
hello i'm terribly busy norma actually, i've got a full lesson at the minute, erm, i'll, i'll try and, and sort that out as soon as i've finished this lesson
okay, thanks for telling me norma
thank you, bye .
jugle 
yes because what happens when you've got just a very thin l, the magic e can even work through it, u, right, so it will be jugle , yeah,jugle , that wouldn't be the right pronunciation at all, okay, let's go on to the next one
erm struggle
yes
i had a struggle getting the ball out of the scrum
well done, i, very good, i had a struggle getting the ball out of the scrum, right
wriggle
wriggle
erm i had to wriggle out of the scrum
i had to wriggle out of the scrum, right, good
farewell, is that farewell
i have to say farewell to my
yes cos what's happened to him?
is he really, is he really?
yes
oh i didn't know that, i thought the army was
no he's going to
gloucester and then he's erm going to erm
cheltenham and gloucester is the poly that he's going to?
yes polytech
oh right, i see when you said that i thought he was going to an army regiment that they put up in gloucester
oh i got that mixed up, sorry about that, right when does that happen then?
this october
erm, the twenty first
right, and what's he going to do there?
oh is he?
oh good, oh i, i'm rather pleased about that
right, can we do the next one, the last one
it's a boggin crash
it's a boggin crash
what
yes, that's what you're going to do today
well
that's perfectly alright.
i've tried to make them a little bit longer.
any plans?
well i, obviously want to try and attend meetings if and when possible, er i've been to one last week, which basically was er because i don't feel i'm qualified to get up and david got up and spoke very well actually, he was always, at the police not neighbourhood watch, er to do with the cascade telephone system which we found out afterwards, after a three quarters hour debate a man came up to dave afterwards and showed him a memo which said this cascade system has now ceased in november nineteen ninety-two and that was the the abuse on that particular meeting.
i do intend to er to attend inaugural meetings with each of the c p o s er with a view to looking i mean obviously at some stages you said to me that i would probably have to attend at short notice
mm
probably by going to these meetings i can pick up the be best practice for ideas which can be passed on to the others
if anybody hears of any neighbourhood watch group meetings, i think make sure paul knows about it so he can attend where possible
yeah
like him to go and look at the one at er the at er which seems to be a successful one
well i went to the last week and i did say that i'd like to go to that one, i'll go to as many as i can
yeah
what i would like and i'm sure it happens with the previous c p o er and i have been notified by telephone and i keep saying to them let me know, but i would like probably a memo from each c p o to say that there is a meeting on this particular night.
do you mean inaugural meetings
well an any meetings really because i think if i can er show my face at these meetings it might er i mean i think whether or not it's because of the increase in burglaries or whether it's because of the publicity via david we seem to have had er a hell of a lot of er enquiries about the schemes.
more than normal tracy ain't it?
yeah i think so
yeah
okay er
it's amazing that he's 
what you saying that for jed, how long you been saying that for?
yeah i know, but there has ain't there, you know but i say that and i live in an area where there's not a neighbourhood watch scheme and i ain't setting one up to until i retire
as crime goes up, people see it as a way of protecting their property don't they
yes
seventeen per cent of reported crime is up
mm
erm, may i make a comment on neighbourhood watch, i went to er a job the other day, it was a theatre, i was off duty and er i got tapped on the shoulder by my local neighbourhood watch co-ordinator who said, nine months ago i resigned, i wrote a letter to headquarters, i wrote a letter to the divisional commander, and i wrote a letter to the local constable, and nobody's replied to me and they still keep sending me papers are you gonna get your act together, now i i have brought this up before, we never ever have let a neighbourhood watch scheme lapse, it's nothing to do with you, this is all before you came 
no 
er we just kept them on and there's i know quite a few schemes have stopped working but we've still got them written down somewhere
probably now we started it might be well worth while g getting rid of some of these schemes that aren't operating
are you saying then that when one's lapsed for six months or over a given period of time we should actually go out there and remove the signs
yeah
well that's one of my next questions because i think it's debatable either way, a a lot of people and i'm finding this just want to be in a neighbourhood watch scheme to take advantage of insurance er and also to have the sign up once the signs are up and they got insurance they're not bothered, and you can tell that by the er gist of the conversation on the telephone.
the other the other thing is i've discussed this with c p os as regards the signs, if a scheme folds then we take the sign down, there are arguments for and against,
no no
say yeh or nay at the moment
no
but if the sign's left up surely that's erm
deterrent
towards crime prevention on the other hand it might make some people realise that if they're no longer a scheme then they don't get the er the
yeah
once a co-ordinator's retired or resigned who do you actually communicate with to find out if the group wants to continue playing
well it should be in the file and i asked for this and keep it before me when a scheme is set up, a we have a map which i must have sent out letters,
em
i've received very few replies so the signs can be erected and b either a deputy co-ordinator or the deputies that should come in, now some some oblige a lot of them don't
right well let's find one or two of these schemes that appear to have lapsed, send some letters to the names in the file, if we don't get any positive response within a couple of months, let's go and take the signs down er and then wait for the squeals
we'll do it ourselves, although the council are the only people who can put them up anyone can take them down,
all you need is a pair of wire cutters
wire cutters and we'll have them down, have 'em back here, and they won't be wasted, cos although you can't use the straps again we're always short of fronts because of damage cos you can regularly replace the fronts but not the straps
well we can buy straps, or always order some more straps if that's the case
yes
it'll also if we start to take action provoke somebody else to take over the schemes,
well that's right
at the moment nobody's interested
but i think we need to prove that we've actually communicated with quite a few people to say that if we don't hear from you in two months then i'm afraid the scheme will lapse.
is that down to us or should we notify the division to make contact
no if if we notify the division after the end of it
we can only write to people we know it might well be twenty out of thirty houses wanted
well
i think you'll find, but they might be more up to date than mike
well then, in that case let's send a copy letter to the local station
i think so
for their information 
i intend o go through all the files in due course, i mean it's
well
it its a big task, em er the thing is that i think that that the first point of call is one is that we get the questionnaire out and see whether you know the one where can we can the questionnaires to all the neighbourhood watch is it,w w we prepare the questionnaire and we get on and send it out, right.
depending on the replies from them in relation to those that have lapsed we then send a second letter to them saying is there anybody that will take over the scheme, if not, right we we intend to remove the signs from the er from the area and then if there is no reply to this letter within fourteen days we you know we'll come and remove the signs.
i think there's a lot of them
that trawl will bring out a couple of dozen schemes that have totally lapsed, and people will write snotty letters saying i've told you this once before.
mm yeah
so great, let's communicate with any other deputies and say if you're not prepared to take it over we'll close the we're afraid the scheme will have to close down.
and
and remove the signs
and any claim and and please inform your insurance companies,
and depending on the area we'll give a photocopy of the map and derek will fetch 'em in, derek can take them down.
who'll doing
no 
we have that many er applications i mean i've just gone through a division and i've got er a pile of cards literally an inch thick with people a made an initial inquiry or b they've been furnished with questionnaires and not been returned, so i'm sending those er right through the divisions
mm
that's the task of the moment, in between the everyday work.
mm, yeah
then of course there's this insurance thing to do as well when david's er free and sorted out
yeah well it's a lot of that
yeah, at least we'll end up with a scheme that's up-to-date and accurate
yeah
well we could also from that by photocopying the er the addresses erm and sending these letters out we might well get updated on the schemes anyway 
that er a scheme isn't operating
what about 
computerisation of the system to come back to us every twelve months if no contact
eventually, yes.
eventually yes.
i think we only want to be on the mainframe so that the divisions can access details in the middle of the night.
i think we still have priority at the moment to computers, in effect paul is going to 
we might as well 
i still think we have to have the system as such, perhaps not so intricate, but certainly keep the file probably with the bits in
we might, cos you won't be able to put maps and things on them
eh
but certainly the main co-ordinators er
almost like the burglar alarm you just have scheme, head co-ordinators, you know deputy co-ordinator, number of 'ouses and that just a basic so you go in
we we don't want really is street co-ordinators because
no
that'd be a mammoth task
if you have somebody like somewhere like that
i'm not talking about that, i'm now talking about tollerton but it's eight hundred properties, it's a small village but there are twenty seven street co-ordinators, so you know
erm yeah so say all you need is just access to that field so if they do change you can just
at the moment you do i take it you're recording people who sort of ring up say i'm interested you send out a package to them you record them
yes
i would think about giving up that, send the package out and forget about them
well, this is something i've just done myself
yeah
but i mean you send the package out and you get a phone call er it's mr davies, and then you get card out and then you send him the questionnaire it's merely a record duplicated on the form but
it's, i can't see any other way to do it at the moment, i mean probably when i
yeah
think about it, but
i mean you don't start a file at that stage do you?
no just a card in er a pending tray and that's it
so you know who they are, yeah
er a sheet of paper for tracy to get the initial erm out and then they just go through the system
and you also get sometimes two people off the same street
well that's it
it's just a reference they want you mr smith two doors away
well i've had one for basingfield or basingfield
oh i spoke to her, yeah
yeah, i've had three applications all for the it's only a small village albeit it's spread
and that's a 
you know for the er village
well have you spoken to sergeant to alleviate all the paperwork, and
yeah yeah
and incur any additional expense
three three farms and there's only te ten properties altogether in about two hundred yards
but they're building some more aren't they, building another seven
building some, yeah building some massive houses there
and a happy eater as well 
well that's it
do they include that in the scheme, some of them on the rate, i won't bother with that anyway it's not our problem
yeah
okay anybody
i've got one i meant to put on the main agenda and i forgot, and i wrote the agenda .
i've been offered the opportunity by er bob in training er in force have taken this on er the tactical unit have taken it on, the chance of er one day erm assessment or appraisal training, at erm probably at exeter for those of us that do it and erm i think that perhaps with the the way that the diverse way that our staff's spread out the proper ways of assessing people which i've i've never been shown how to do and i don't think many of us have.
erm i mean he it sort of went through our staff inspector wise and er paul was sort of chatting, and he wasn't being unkind he said yes, they'll be dinosaurs because it's a long time since you've had er any training like that.
what about civilian staff, i have to assess my staff, i haven't had no training.
yeah, yeah 
right, yeah 
i also said that erm my i expressed that the fears that i expressed at this meeting last time about er the fact that paul and i now supervise civilian staff, er which i've never been sat down and told what the civilians term of contract are and what i can or cannot say or whatever, so erm i feel it will be quite valuable, and brought it for me to see if anybody think it's worthwhile pursuing.
a one day appraisal
yes, it's a one day,
just write it on a memo form paul and send it round with a circulation slip, and those who feel they want to get involved put their name down, probably the quickest way of doing it.
right, things are on hold though with assessments aren't they at the moment, cos they
aren't they always don't they change every ten minutes
i ain't got time to do assessments let alone a one day course.
yeah, that's true.
i think that your two waiting for signature on his desk,
you haven't seen mine have you,
well why do you want one, you've just bloody had one
no it's derek 
first time he's said anything nice about me, i thought i'll get in while i can 
derek, it won't last
right, anyone else want to bring any points up
took me, took me about bloody two days to do your last one
stuart is having a social event on the eleventh of march for the media and the police, i'll circulate this round with a er slip on it, erm it involves a conducted tour of the police station and some bits and bobs
oooh
and everyone's very welcome to come, i'll let you know
reply to it
eleventh of march
well it's now come under a general invited round to us all
yeah
eleventh of march, yeah
the on the contacts slip so you can read at your leisure, anybody else want to raise any points, tracy at all, david
about car park
green vans, green vans
green vans
are we
i'm gonna tell it
don't start
no, i've been and spoken to them again this morning and yesterday, r s c left it there not o s d although it's o s d's van, so they should've come out to move it on friday and the mechanics didn't turn up, then they lost the keys, cos yesterday myself and who was it, lyn, waited up for the keys cos they were gonna move down put it into a safer spot.
mm
couldn't find the keys anywhere
well they were hung up on the board in o s d on friday when i went down there
which which office?
in the a in the
no, you know you know as you're going down the corridor before you get to the doors to go down the next set of stairs, i mean in o s d, the last one is er for the p c that does all the man er you know all the duties and things like that, and in his office there's a great big board with all the vehicles on, and the key's hung up at the end and who's got 'em out, and the bottom one is that green van, because he went up and picked 'em up, when i was there.
i was coming to david
tomorrow morning if it's still there
yeah
yeah
we're not gonna put any down cos it's going somewhere else
but they're gonna have to find him
erm bob bob 
no no no
you have to wait until all the transit vans are out and double parked put it across across the transit van bays
so nobody can get in at all 
mm, or their transits
let's throw the keys away
i was saying to david this morning there was a on the police that was good
probably terribly naive
oh it says something like j r green a number which doesn't exist and any tradesperson could have the name address type of trade and a real phone number
course they would
yeah
you could change the signs quite regular though couldn't you
painter and decorator one day and er butcher the other 
quite easily
throw, throw some paint over the back and everything paint running out the back
mm yeah
detail like that
hear that
rubbish really, not our problem, anybody else want to bring any points up
no no
we've got dates for the meeting, i've got two suggestions, one is that i can't see any point anymore why
here here
and it's to one
yeah, here here
better headquarters,
yeah, where where
s thirty one, if we book it in advance we can get in s thirty one downstairs in the canteen, cos we're only an hour and half, two hours meeting
yeah
we can be finished by quarter to twelve
good idea, any items of agenda for sergeant , who will be organising the next meeting in s thirty one
okay yeah fine twenty eighth of march
hang on
he's on holiday
bloody right
the meetings 
coming for comments like that
there's an s l o's meeting on the twenty eighth of march
oh good i'm in majorca
are we gonna do dates now or i think we regard the deputies visit as a special visit and
mm
yeah
i mean i think the thing to do i mean we most of our lot are within the corridor, what we need to do is get headquarters find out when the rooms free and ring everybody round
can you organise that 
yeah i'll find it
yeah, if you go up to that door 
yeah well fifteenth march what day is it tuesday?
there there's some dates on there
no fifteenth of march is out.
silly bugger
wednesday it's a tuesday
fifteenth of march
twenty second of march
it's much easier with a cal diary
okay for that one
what twenty second of march, is that too far ahead?
right twenty second if there's any difficulty i'll come back to paul and keith cos to let everybody else know about any problems
s thirty one is it
well yes
s thirty one
well
do you think it's
do you not think it's worthwhile booking the rest of the year's meetings or shall we do it as we carry on
what you mean going to find a room
i'm bored now
are we closing the meetings 
yeah we're all bored
the meeting's closing just before ten thirty thank you.
the sun has now risen the sun is over the yard arm.
come in.
good morning.
morning .
you're a stranger.
aye.
what can we do for you this morning ?
it's my pills.
i need pills 
you need some poison.
.
i'm only needing the lazarite and er aspirin,
lazarite what about your spray, walter?
no?
no i'm alright for that.
i'm okay for .
you're alright for your spray.
so that's i am due my line too.
fine.
is that ?
aye.
are you still gardens, yeah?
yes.
there you are young walter, and that'll keep you for a week .
doctor.
right.
cheerio now.
good morning.
it's mackeson gold cup day, it's been raining heavily at cheltenham, there's a non-runner in the big race details coming up.
we'll also be looking back a little bit at the breeder's cup, we'll also have the result of your poll for the channel four racing personality of the year, there's the picture puzzle and lots of other things as well which i can't remember.
you look a bit like annie oakley this morning.
or annie get your gun if you're not careful
exactly.
and oakes i do like your tie.
i'm glad you mentioned that cos it was given to me by the wife of the steeplechase handicap a very important man today cos for more than
she didn't whisper 
and melinda his wife runs simply delightful which is wh that's one of the things she has a shop 
in malton and that's something 
didn't whisper anything that's well in today in the mackeson did she?
no.
what's on today?
it's a busy old day.
well it's lacing there's racing all over the all over the country and except at ayr in scotland it's raining everywhere i'm sorry to say.
racing at ayr up in scotland where it is dry, nottingham, cheltenham where the mackeson gold cup is, big card at windsor with a lot of runners and finally the all-weather racing at lingfield.
well as john said wet and windy everywhere unless you go very far north but those people up at ayr it's gonna be cold so you can't have everything.
main meeting as we've said is cheltenham let's have the news from there .
first race there twelve fifty the going at the moment is good but they have had a quarter of an inch of rain overnight so of course i suppose there's every chance it could go to good to soft by this afternoon.
two important non runners there in the twelve fifty, number seven far senior and in the two o'clock number thirteen the i wouldn't say old timer but panto prince anyway shame he's not going to get a run.
it is raining at the moment and it's gonna be wet and windy but quite mild for the rest of the day.
no hazards but there'll be a good crowd so get there in plenty of time.
actually there's a race at eleven thirty it's a running race between members of the press and the jockeys, people like peter scudimore, deckland murphy, ben newton for the press he could be the dark horse.
it's over hurdles as well that could be good for a laugh especially if er you don't clear them as well as you should do.
erm 
scu's scu's for the press.
scu's running for the press.
scu's yeah 
yeah 
yeah is that a help or a hindrance ?
i don't anyway this is just one of the highlights of what has been two marvellous days at the mackeson meeting sponsored of course by whitbread and the big race today is the fifty thousand pound mackeson gold cup confirming fifteen runners over two and a half miles.
panto prince is out and general pershing is now new favourite and clear favourite.
neil doughty eleven to two, bradbury star that has to be the favourite easing slightly this seven to one with general idea.
just looking at those prices on the screen i suppose oakes general pershing is a worthy favourite or is he?
well it's a very very competitive race i i i suppose he may have the best chance but there are an awful lot with good chances.
i think he's got a great chance.
i saw him around two weeks ago at wetherby and er i think he'll run well.
he was ten to one earlier in the week and the rain will have helped.
yes i mean if it if it does go to good to soft he will like the ground.
there's a couple in there that would prefer it faster.
mm.
erm but at that sort of price i think he's opposable.
well let's see what we can oppose him with.
bradley star is a very nice horse he's a classy performer this one, josh gifford's horses are in tremendous form and i was talking to the man who who rides him deckland murphy he's my next door neighbour he thinks he'll run a big race.
he would be my pick i must say, of them he's he's 
the trouble is he's run he's run some marvellous races but somehow when it comes to the crunch and er in in in better class races he just gets just gets beat.
he loves cheltenham though i mean he's had four firsts and a second 
erm, he's only won i admit
yeah
he's only once been beaten at cheltenham .
erm another i know er i've spoken to deckland murphy as well being the newmarket's jumps jockey and erm they think he's the gold cup horse well if he is he's gonna have to put in a good performance today then i'd stick with him.
think he's gonna win?
yeah exactly.
it's a it's a very very good race this and one of the good horses is a horse called general idea.
now what a training performance this would be if this horse could win because he's trained by dermott wilde and do you remember ten days ago he sent out vintage crop to win the melbourne cup down in australia.
well the word from ireland this week is that this horse is jumping out of its skin.
the only problem is that the ground now might well have gone against this horse.
but he did win the galway plate earlier this summer.
this is fast ground 
at galway and that's the problem with general idea as you say derek er if it gets softer like at cheltenham that will be very much against him.
but er it doesn't look like a steeplechase but it is in fact 
a two mile steeplechase the galway plate and general idea running really well from and express but the ground's the problem.
and lighter weight as well last year and has more weight today so he's had he would have had to have improved about four or five pounds to win today?
that's right.
and there's very li very little between him and er the the other ex-irish horse second schedule.
exactly.
well let's have a look we've got er second schedule.
now he's recently joined david nicholson's stable.
yes that's right er i er believe in fact i know because the duke says so in the racing post today the reason he's gone there is to get adrian maguire because adrian has ridden him already in ireland and the owner wanting to stick with maguire which you can't blame him for 
exactly 
as david nicholson said he'll be taking orders from the jockey today instead of the other way around.
i don't imagine he says that very often.
perhaps he's given the duke his orders.
oh i'd like to do that.
now well let's have a look at this horse and another schedule because as i say he was trained in ireland by arthur and er we saw them at punchestown back in april where he finished second to another of his rivals today bishops hall.
as they come to the final fence second schedule being pressed by ebony jane and bishops hall on the nearside and over the last second schedule and bishops hall on the nearside, ebony jane in third, in fourth place is joe white and racing into the closing stages it's second schedule with bishops hall on the nearside graham bradley again as they go to the line, bishops hall wins it for harry , second schedule is second, joe white is third, ebony jane four.
bishops hall doing it nicely under brad and it's good to see him in the saddle today because he was offered the ride on morley street but he'd already said yes and he's a man of his word and he agreed to ride this horse.
and there's been a lot of hoo-ha in the press about should be ride morley street or shouldn't he.
once you say yes you gotta stick to your word and morley street, good horse, but has a lot of weight today.
lot of weight and again it's it's fences isn't it.
he'd last time tried over these he he wasn't at his best.
erm had a run on the flat so you know i mean i think we should be but
it's a it's a very bold thing of toby baldwin to run him in this race it seems to me, you know i mean he definitely appeared to not like .
yes 
it's only his third run and he's he's in the most competitive two and a half mile chase in the year.
but he oozes class and he's had a strange preparation.
you mention the flat race.
let's let's have a look at that race.
it was at newmarket just a couple of weeks ago.
and i can tell you he he does an an awful lot.
here you can see him second last but making ground now.
er my patriarch and er is is taking the lead from ritto who later ran so well in the cesarovitch but just look at morley street now.
here he comes past one past another past yet another into third place in the end and that was an extraordinarily good performance.
no.
it's a very good turn of 
foot for a for a jumper isn't it though ?
very nice.
and he he very nearly won the doncaster cup wasn't it.
yes i think it was the doncaster cup.
yes mm.
i seem to remember toby baldwin has said that erm 
could be the short head.
i backed it with thirty three to one is that it?
i remember that.
trust you to remember that.
now he does say he would you know he even thinks he could be a gold cup horse and emulate dawn run i mean again it's it's great claims this early on but er they wouldn't be running him if they didn't think he's got a chance.
light would be a topical tip wouldn't it?
yeah wouldn't it just.
and will like the ground.
there's just got to be a bit of a stamina question mark there.
mm.
the connections and i know john as well are sure he get the trip.
erm he will like the ground.
i suppose he's every you know he's got every chance if he gets home.
andy turner's horses running well .
just doesn't they're they're running really well 
mm.
but it just doesn't want to get too soft because that old hill you know it it does get a big of a drag.
okay.
we've talked about it.
what's going to win the mackeson?
i'll go bradbury star.
yeah he's gotta be there.
storma lad.
storma lad?
mhm.
mm.
well i think general pershing will win but watch out for our margaret, twenty five to one.
how's the betting looking alastair?
well general pershing is the buzz horse this morning.
victor chandler the longest eleven to two, i should think he's been trampled to death in the rush.
er ladbrokes went five to one.
that is being taken to good money they say, it was the professional's choice yesterday the faces were all backing it yesterday.
the five to one will last to the end of the ten minute guarantee at the shops, it will then go four and by the general pershing could be as low as seven to two or a hundred to thirty according to ladbrokes.
hills have had erm each way for nephew and our margaret but the focus of the betting today with this rain coming at cheltenham is going to be gordon richard's general pershing and he's gonna go off a short price.
is your money going to be on the favourite?
er my money's gone on storm storm alert about ten days ago at twelves and 
mm.
that's almost certainly enough to nail it to the floor i would have thought.
are you worried that you were obviously worried about this rain as well?
er likes it likes the ground.
it needs the ground.
mhm.
and i've said that you know i'd rather it was on the soft but whether it will get 
yeah.
the trip or not we'll find out this afternoon.
it's gonna be a cracking good race at too.
but what about the other race meetings today?
let's have the early news.
oakes.
yes.
wind's up.
there's no danger of the river rising so fast it floods the course as it sometimes does but sadly as you can see, rain overnight and it's raining now.
and do watch out for those roadworks on the m four just by the m twenty five junction.
well at nottingham as well as first race twelve forty five there's a wedding.
the prospective mr and mrs martin are celebrating their wedding in a private hospitality suite and as well as er entertaining their guests they're sponsoring the andy and tracy wedding day novelties chase.
and they have a runner in .
so all the very best to them.
the going however whether their horse will like it or not is good from good to firm and there's a non runner in the one fifteen that's number one urgh canderbill, there we go.
that's about a third of an inch of rain overnight and again it's gonna be wet for the rest of the day.
when you go into the course follow signs for colic park.
celebrating your wedding with chase but this is ayr and it's the only dry spot in the british isles.
there was no rain overnight so that the ground er is good with just a few soft places.
no hazards on the roads.
and the where the meeting of the day is at lingfield park.
first race there twelve twenty because there are eight races so an action-packed good value afternoon there.
an eighth of an inch of rain overnight but that shouldn't make any difference at all but a wet windy day.
no reported hazards.
doesn't look a brilliant day does it weatherwise at the races clouds.
wetherby by the way tuesday third annual charity meeting in aid of the international spinal research trust.
it's on tuesday sixteenth of november.
a lot of local people have certainly er given generously so should be a good day's racing.
always is at wetherby if you can win there you can win anywhere.
but what about the guy who's won the channel four champion tipster competition for last week?
let me first of all give you his name and i'll tell you what this guy's damn brilliant.
it is robert from road in in oxfordshire who got an amazing a hundred and thirty points.
now i say amazing let's just see where he got his winners.
now that okay no problems there,second and third but look at this, he gave the first second and third and they didn't even have a handicap.
er the looking for a rainbow, flight lieutenant, all skill of course, well you deserve that.
well done robert and you get five hundred pounds.
we'll have another champion tipster competition in a fortnight here on channel four which will be coming from newcastle.
now let's test your turf knowledge as we go into the commercial break.
this er turf trivia today has been sent in by s who comes from great lumley in county down.
know it well.
he asks quite simply with which horses did trainer fred rival win the mackeson gold cup four years running in nineteen sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy and seventy one?
you get scratching those heads and i'll give you the answer in three minutes from now.
okay did you get it right?
with which horses did trainer fred rival win the mackeson in sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy and seventy one four years running.
they were jupiter boy, gay trip, chatham and gay trip again.
what an incredible performance that was.
three different horses won it four years running.
the late and much missed fred rival by the way i saw mercy at the horse of the year show a few weeks ago.
still looking as good as ever.
erm non runners, non runners there were three in so far, two of them were at cheltenham.
they are far senior in the first in the twelve fifty and panto prince did not run in the mackeson at two o'clock.
and canderbill is out of the one fifteen at nottingham.
any good news in the papers alastair?
well derek for a change there is.
and here in the sporting life there's the man who rode gay trip to mackeson victory one of his mackeson victories, terry biddlecombe.
large as life and smiling.
he's been in the wars a bit since his racing career.
he was one of my childhood heroes, a marvellous jockey and a great chap.
he's been on the sauce basically but he's kicked the habit and he says of kicking the drinking habit i've had a lot of help and a lot of good counselling, in the end it's up to me.
i don't want to be complacent but since march i seem to be winning .
well that's great news.
and a lot of people have rallied round terry biddlecombe, very popular man, injured jockeys' fund among others and he's back in the back in the swim fully employed and in action for mackeson today at er cheltenham.
here in the mail peter scudimore wearing his new hack's hat.
pipe can still meet the gold standard.
there are a lot of people saying that mike martin pipe is not the force he was etcetera but there's been a change of policy down at and if anyone thinks that pipe has lost his touch they're talking twaddle.
he'll be back and he might be back at working men's prices.
you pay your money and you take your choice on the mackeson and here j a magrar in the telegraph idea represents mackeson value .
he has some very harsh words for the japanese about their ban on frankie detory saying it's shortsighted and harsh in the extreme and we'll all say yes to that.
er in the star brad's a star.
this is josh gifford exclusive another one of these trainers learning to be a journalist.
time some journalists learned to be trainers i think.
he says
i'm convinced he's a mu this is bradbury he's a much better stronger horse this season and really do think he can bring the beer money back to sussex.
we will see.
and here today's bandwagon rolling tip,pershing po poised to fulfil his promise , that's paul johnson in the racing post, john de moreville in the express pershing to strike his target and now here is something of which nobody can be proud gosforth park south africa .
this is in the sporting life and it's also in the racing post and this is a cynical move by the bookies to pick your pocket.
there are five race meetings today.
there are more dog cards than you shake a stick at yet the bookies are peddling this tripe from south africa through the morning.
now in the first race the ten fifty, number nine is called jew wanna bet 
now when you hear that mentioned in the betting shops go no and pull the plugs out of the television.
we do not want to bet thank you very much on south african racing, we've got quite enough of our own without the bookies .
i like south africa.
well you're barmy.
we've got quite enough of our own without you peddling the
south africans.
now controversial stuff here in the sporting life david ashforth.
now jerry bailey the man who rode ah kong this is at a press conference after the breeders' cup.
jerry bailey typically articulate was being asked about his success on ah kong he described how he had moved alongside a european ridden horse.
he didn't know which one it was he just knew it wa was a european rider.
how did he know that?
the americans all sniggered.
bailey smirked a bit.
well he replied he was kind of flopping about.
and everyone laughed.
well all the americans did.
we didn't.
that was walter swinburne he was talking about.
and bailey's comments are backed up by the trainer derek meredith who says american jockeys are better, they ride closer to the horse they're neater and they are stronger too.
there was a warm hum of approval from the american hacks.
you were there john, what did you think of all that ?
i wasn't part of the warm hum of approval 
i don't suppose so.
and mr meredith was a failed jockey in england.
he ended up riding a few jumpers in france so its erm although he's a good trainer now i don't think he's an authority and it's poppycock er frankly.
but when appear over here they're a great success.
is there anything in it?
oh of course they're of course they are a great success.
they are top class jockeys.
but our top class jockeys in america do not flop about they use a slightly different style.
admittedly they're a little bit less streamlined but if you're going to say that that makes a serious difference 
but what's the difference in the courses 
as well over here that our our guys have to cope with.
true
the tracks in america okay we go over there and we say they're tight they're quite difficult to ride.
there's nothing like an epsom, there's nothing like the variety that our jockeys have to cope with
yes.
day in day day out 
true.
and it wasn't one of ours that dropped their whip
that's true.
out there so you know you can criticize .
talking of the whip i mean we're only allowed to hit them five times over here.
in america they seem to hit them twenty five times
and in all sorts
everywhere they want to
anywhere they want to
yeah
so but there it's it's a very interesting point there because a lot of our young boys now the dow holland alan munroes are riding more the american style.
it's an interesting point.
i don't think he's right in what he says but i think it might have been a bit tongue in cheek as well.
they certainly weren't saying it about lester piggott on royal academy a couple of years back either.
no but i did say about it lester piggott on a few weeks ago .
yes.
lester piggott when he won on .
mm.
and the next .
very good.
very good impression.
talking of lester piggott he of course was the winner of the first ever channel four personality of the year trophy which we awarded for the first time last year.
he was a guest on the morning line at newmarket and there it is that magnificent trophy which is valued at five thousand pounds.
now we couldn't have him in this year to give the others a chance so this is how you voted for the nineteen ninety three racing personality of the year on channel four and let's take it in reverse order starting with the person who finished fourth.
in fourth place one of the hardest working and most successful trainers in britain jack barry.
he polled nine percent.
in third place the most successful jockey in the history of national hunt racing peter scudimore.
he polled eleven percent.
runner-up the ever popular willie carson.
willie received seventeen percent of the overall votes.
so who did you vote for?
who's the nineteen ninety three channel four racing personality of the year?
it is mary reevley who polled twenty percent.
just as successful on the flat or over jumps i think this is a very very worthy winner our congratulations to mary reevley and i'm gonna get her on the show and present the prize to her.
if we get her on the show that really will be something cos i know she's shy but well done.
ling dell can be proud of her up in north yorkshire.
charity bets twenty five pounds and we came down in the car from newmarket she had the she had the post out the light everything, now what's what's it going on?
exactly.
i've not, alastair accused me of being topical because of a member of the royal family this week this is not the reason but i've gone for leotard in the one twenty five at cheltenham.
could a lot fitter than it did 
ah 
i love it.
oakes what are you going for?
mm.
ballasarly i'm going for.
ballasarly?
there's a slight i mean over hurdles there's a doubt about his stamina
mm.
but erm he won at a huge long was it the er queen alexandra
yeah.
at royal ascot erm so that i'm confident he will stay and mr pipe is not dead yet.
that's true.
and alastair what do you fancy?
what's your ?
er front street in a small race at nottingham.
small prize big chance.
cor blimey.
i haven't heard of that one.
general pershing is the one to be on at the big race.
that's mine let's check it out.
oakes is going for ballasarly in the two thirty five cheltenham, leslie's going for leotard that's the top weight in the first at one twenty five er oh in the second.
alastair's going for front street at nottingham number five in the two twenty, thomo's going for general pershing in the two o'clock at cheltenham.
picture puzzle.
picture puzzle.
can you work out today's picture puzzle?
this horse is running somewhere today.
okay 
i wonder where?
i promise three extra ice creams 
a day now will you please come on the set.
something to do miss er sara lingfield i wonder where that's running today?
o eight nine one double nine double one double four win a hundred pound do you win a copy of this book?
this is the william hill racing dates.
it's a smashing book that graham sharp's brought out.
what's the date today chaps?
november the thirteenth?
peter niven rode a five timer at ayr in nineteen ninety two.
eighteen eighty nine the foston selling plate at derby was declared void after the whole field got lost in the thick fog covering the course and ended up running round the back of a cricket pavilion.
have you been round the back of a cricket pavilion recently?
no.
but there was a one day in which frenchie nick nicholson erm brought all the tail-enders across and had been told the one thing he shouldn't do was be last he was thinking i'm not last and behind you then he came in in front of him and he was last.
i love it.
lovely story.
anyway that's it from the morning line.
i'm off to windsor they're off to cheltenham and everywhere else.
we'll see you next saturday.
we'll give you the result of picture puzzle then.
till then from all of us bye bye.
see you next week.
good afternoon and welcome to on the record.
we know what the conservative party thought of michael heseltine this week, they cheered him to the echo when he strode on to the platform at blackpool.
but what does michael heseltine think of the party?
and of the direction it has now taken.
in today's programme he gives us an exclusive interview, the first since his heart attack four months ago.
and could british rail be sold to british rail?
we've learned that the government can't rely on enough support from its own back benchers to push through privatization on its own terms.
and why should chinese ancestor worship appeal to government ministers.
john cole returns from the seaside with answers to the questions you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask.
but first michael heseltine.
he's been a force in british politics for a third of a century, but for how much longer.
we've heard nothing from him for the past four months since that heart attack in italy.
though the rumours have told us a great deal, he's still far from well, he might need a heart bypass, he's gonna have to retire form politics.
at the very least, his influence over the party and british politics is at an end.
well it didn't sound at all like any of that when i spoke to m mr heseltine, near his home, a couple of hours ago.
i asked him first, how are you?
i'm well.
er medically, as best as i understand what the doctors tell me, er i'm er fine to carry the responsibilities and strain of er the cabinet job that i had.
but you have to do it g slowly.
take it a step at a time.
it'd be crazy to sort of do a dive in from the sort of recuperative process.
but er er the er one of the doctors who looked inside my heart they put a local injection, telescope upside, he said i've got the arteries of a man of thirty or forty.
don't don't quarrel with him.
don't quarrel with him .
so what does that mean?
no need for a bypass?
because they 
no no no no i just lost the tip of an artery.
closed down, finish.
so there's it w it wasn't close to the heart.
and so there's n the arteries themselves are very good.
but this tip for reasons beyond my knowledge has gone so there's nothing to be done about it and erm er the last test i had the guy who conducted it said, you've already got the heart off an average sixty year old who hasn't had a heart attack.
and that sort of is very encouraging.
so you're completely fit er
medically yes.
er but it takes time to recover from the er the the shock and the experience and the unnerving.
but i've come a long way and er so i'll go back next er wednesday to the department and er er if people will bear with me and put up with it er i'll take it er fairly slowly to start with but i dare say there will come a time when er erm you won't notice much difference.
what you you say the shock of it.
what what was it like?
all of those of us who haven't had a heart attack live in fear of it obviously and think 
yeah well, i mean we all my father died of a heart attack.
mm.
and erm er that was a long time ago.
i si think it's very possible that he wouldn't have erm died under today's 
today.
conditions.
i had wonderful treatment in italy.
i was very close to a a hospital with a wonderful cardiac er unit er where they had a professor who was one of the leading italian in the subject.
i was there within an hour, so i couldn't be more grateful and appreciative.
they're wonderful people, the italians.
er anyway that the the but the actual experience, er one knew something was wrong.
i was not frightened, i didn't think anything was that wrong.
but i said to anne, look i think you better get a doctor.
this was before it happened or when it happened? you didn't have sort of intimations that something was going to happen ?
well i i you see, it's all hindsight.
i think in truth erm er we'd taken a weekend off and er to go to venice, there was a big er art exhibition on and anne wanted to see that.
erm and i i wasn't feeling on top form and er looking back, i perhaps should have gone to a doctor then.
but you don't you know.
erm but th anyway, there it was and er i had this pain not not acute, that's why i wasn't that worried.
it didn't last that long.
erm and from that moment i got into hospital and i had no more trouble.
but i mean of course they plugged me up with all sorts of things.
wi with of course one disastrous consequence.
which er i mean, damn the british media like all politicians do.
one of the things they have to do is to get your uric acid i think it's called erm content correct.
and it it so they give you some m medicine for that.
a side effect of which can be that you can develop gout.
and so the what what what that 
ah, that explains 
everybody saw was not the
mhm.
fit strapping heseltine which i wished 
you looked terrible.
which i wished to portray.
but this sort of tottering wreck.
yes.
you know, hobbling to the helicopter it was my 
foot which had had been had gout induced.
nothing to do with the heart at all.
anyway, sod's law you know.
that's politics.
but you did look you did look truly awful in that picture that appeared in the newspapers you looked as if 
well my real real girlfriends wrote and said, michael, you've got lovely legs.
but did you think you were going to die?
i mean was it 
no no i didn't.
i mean i must be honest, i did not feel that frightened erm it wasn't an acute pain that that i mean i mean one of the things that one has to realize, you can become a heart attack bore.
very easily.
everybody who's had any sort of tremor or experience or much worse, they're all individual and it's no use me talking to you about my heart condition, because you haven't got my heart.
erm e e they're all individual and mine i think, looking back, was erm erm er a light er experience and i mean as i've said, the the erm er w this telescope they shove up you, er i mean, chris patton had the same thing.
erm is local anaesthetic in the groin.
up goes the telescope, you're lying there you know, and the doctor told me, he said, do you wanna watch?
do you wanna watch?
and i said, ah.
you know.
anything but.
absolutely.
but erm anyway that's it's all it's all now a few a few months ago.
did it change your perspective on anything, on life, on politics, on what you're doing in in in the job?
well i suppose erm well i i i i mean i remember er ludicrous really, sort of thinking of what i would say at the tory party conference while i was lying in that hospital in venice.
and i actually made some notes .
erm then.
and er so i mean it's you know, i am a politician i mean you know, it's in the blood i've b been in the in the house of commons now for about a quarter of a century.
over a quarter of a century, most of it on the front bench.
and erm i like it.
but the fact is i mean i you know, you do ask these questions, your family make you ask these questions quite understandably.
i there are other things i could do.
i'm a manic gardener and i that's what i've been doing.
erm i could go back to commerce, although er that side of my life is some way behind and it it's always been very successfully done by er my colleagues in the company that i started.
so er you know i i've i've never had a sort of er a one way track about politics, although i adore it and i've er i've enjoyed it hugely am enjoying it and i
ah i was going to pick you said, i have enjoyed it hu i was about to leap in and say, ah that means .
yes ye no no no no no no.
how kind.
well that's the value of a programme like this, you can correct.
otherwise that'd be over the headlines.
heseltine says, future 
quite.
is in the past.
you know 
which is not exactly what i am saying.
erm no the fact is that er i i love politics.
it's er and and i have always wanted to be president of the board of trade.
but what about more ambition, further ambition now?
well that's a sort of wary question but all politicians 
but you'd expect me to ask it.
i know you're bound to ask it.
and you i'm not going to give any different answer i've ever given.
i my belief is that john major will win the next election.
i helped to win the last one, i shall help to win the next one.
and er er i i think that er all this sort of chat about leadership challenges and all that, i think that's for the birds.
i don't think we shall see it.
i especially i don't think so after after the very er impressive speech he made on friday.
but there is we can come to that in a moment if we may.
but there is something about you that is a bit different to politicians.
apart from that but well th that's true that's true .
trouble.
trouble.
and you've had plenty of that.
plenty of trouble.
and yet you keep bouncing back or 
yes.
swinging back.
i mean, er 
i wrote a book called, where there's a will.
precisely.
you resigned over over westland you er er you were defeated for the leadership.
you've had your heart attack, you've been out of action for three months and yet, when you talk to people, when the pollsters go out with their clipboards, they say, who do you think is most likely apart from the prime minister, to lead the tory party?
and they say, you.
still.
so what is it about you?
trouble.
it's got to be a bit more than that.
ambition ?
long hair.
long hair, tall.
you know.
been around a long time.
erm i what is it, who knows, who cares?
you know, if i'm president of the board of trade, i'm a loyal member of john major's cabinet.
i intend to go on doing that as long as he wants me.
and the inevitable qu you'd expect me to ask this to you.
if john major fell under a privatized train, would your hat still be in the ring?
or 
well 
would you say, i've had it all now, i do 
i i mean i you know, you never make these er you can get every sort of evasive answer to these questions.
and they're all lies, you know, they may sound nice and they may deceive people, but the truth is, any politician that i know and respect, when it comes to the crunch, if they think they have a chance of preferment and obviously ultimate preferment, take it.
some of them do it sheepishly, and with reluctance and say, it's never what i ever had in mind.
but they always do it.
others are honest about it.
ken clarke, i like him, i trust him, i admire him.
what does he say, he answers the question straight, just the way i always answered it.
which is to say, yes, given another chance, i'd have a go for it.
no i no i don't say that, cos what i always said is you cannot do what your friends will never let you do.
that's the real test.
you cannot if you're in the the house of commons and there's a vacancy or something of this sort for a job, i mean we don't need to invent a hypothetical situation.
your friends are the ones who say, well you're the guy who could do this.
and if they don't say that, or if they positively say, you're not the guy, you're wasting your time.
the only reason that you can make progress in that sort of situation is if there's a body of opinion that says that you should.
but somebody like you could always find friends to say, yes you ought to do that 
no i don't agree with that.
i d i do not agree with that at all.
i mean, there could i mean i think the house of commons is now some way past in in my life in the sense i haven't been there since er june.
i've no idea about the mood, i've no idea what people will think of er maybe large numbers well one journalist said to me in blackpool and perhaps this says it all, he said, michael, you're the only really popular person here this week.
you see they've nothing to be frightened of any more.
but they're wrong.
ah but they
aren't they because you're saying, i'm still around 
no they may not be wr i i mean the the fact i'm around doesn't mean to say that i'm frightening.
and i haven't changed.
i've never been frightening.
people have misjudged me.
so you're not going to write your memoirs?
you know, i i i'm i'm unhappy about this memoir business.
i mean, they're self serving aren't they.
and they're all to to put the person's point of view.
and erm i i i find it i mean i'm not going to be sort of holier than thou about it all i mean, perhaps i myself might be tempted er one day.
erm but the idea that someone is putting it all down, all those private conversations, all those tensions, and it's all being recorded, not to present the historic truth, but to present the truth as the person wants history to read it.
that's what always happens, they're self serving, self pleading, self justifying.
er perhaps they're helpful to the historians because they can then put them all in a room.
although i must say i i mean, one of the most fascinating pieces of politics i was ever involved in, was when i had to defend mrs thatcher over the belgrano incident.
and people were very kind about the quality off the speech that i made that that did it.
i believed she was one hundred percent right.
i believed then and i believe now.
i must make that absolutely clear.
but i had to get together in one room, the admirals, the intelligence people, the civil servants, all the people who'd played a critical role in advising her.
it was only six months before, they couldn't agree.
i wonder what each of their memoirs would look like.
so what about mrs thatcher's memoirs?
the timing.
well i glanced yeah, yeah.
you know, look, i did a deal with mrs thatcher in nineteen eighty six, that i wouldn't open up many of these issues, and if she sticks to the deal, i'll stick to the deal.
but she hasn't.
as far as i'm concerned, personally, so far, she has.
what was the deal then?
that i wouldn't pursue the issues of nineteen eighty six.
and i i haven't i with the no it's very simple, i left it to the select committees of the house of commons.
but we're talking about now, we're talking about mrs thatcher having written 
i deal 
a set of memoirs er critical of the prime minister while he's still in office .
erm er i'm she hasn't been critical of me.
no but she's been critical of lots of other people.
well we don't know for sure yet about what she's said about you.
do we.
if 
that's what i said, if she sticks to the deal, i'll stick to the deal.
s but but y what what you're saying is that if someo have you seen the book by the way?
have you read the book?
right .
no.
no.
so if somewhere later on in the book she says, michael heseltine was a rotten old so and so.
erm
i'm sure we know that she thinks that, so that won't actually sort of provoke great reaction in me.
what would it need to provoke you then?
we'll just see.
what about, what she has had to say about john major?
well look, let's stand back.
my interest is in the unity and success of the conservative party.
i don't want to see i i deeply deplore the divisions between left and right and the accentuation of often very phoney distinctions and mislabelling that goes on.
it's a development that has grown in my political lifetime over erm i suppose twenty years now.
and i don't like that aspect of politics, the divisiveness of it all, the personal sort of er attentions of it all.
i know it's there, but i thought that john struck with me a very powerful note, when he said in his conference speech, i should share these things first in private.
and i don't think it would do any good for me on this programme, or any of my colleagues, and of course the media will be now all over the place trying to achieve this.
to get instant reactions, instant comments which will blow the thing up.
but you're clearly unhappy about it.
i you you you've made that quite clear .
i i cannot i i cannot believe that it is w within the the standards of the conservative party that i joined, that this sort of diary writing, gossipy, pseudo history er is part of the convention.
i think er one of the papers made this erm i think alec douglas hulme er has set a sort of standard which i would admire.
er there were always memoirs, but i think that the nature of them has changed.
and i and not sure it's well i am sure that it's for the worse.
it's causing damage?
i don't think that the people come out of it well.
any of them?
including the authors?
er i think particularly the authors.
should there be er a change in the rules?
what rules?
that says, well there aren't any rules at the moment obviously but but should there there are rules for for for civil servants, should there be rules for politicians?
well there are rules but cur 
that say 
curiously enough, they seem to have i mean i i have
yeah, but they have only to do with things like national security and and
yes but er i i think that erm er the little by little, the conventions have been stretched.
and of course there's huge 
do you think they should be tightened up again?
there's huge money.
dramatic money.
you know.
and and and and have no illusions, the money and the contents are very linked.
that it's no use going round saying, well here's my view of history as i wrote it.
er and it's factual it's it's analytical, it's it's erm devoid of the sort of bitchiness of politics.
cos you won't get enough money.
you mean people spice them up 
oh yeah, sure sure.
you think mrs thatcher's done that?
i have no idea.
i wouldn't dream of making such an observation.
but it sounds as though you suspect that.
i i'm not going to be drawn even by your deft questioning 
alright but the rules 
in this direction.
but the rules ought to be changed.
there ough the rules ought to be hardened up to stop this kind of thing going on 
i i i i i doubt if you could have rules.
i doubt any more whether we live in the sort of society where you could have such rules.
since we're talking about rules, what about erm mrs thatcher, lady thatcher wanting to change the rules so that a sitting prime minister can't be challenged.
oh no certainly not.
certainly not.
certainly not.
i w i i personally er made it clear at the time when they changed the rules er er fairly recently, that i didn't think they should.
erm i think that er erm politicians understand full well the nature of the profession in which they're involved and the parliamentary party is erm more than able to exercise a proper judgement, er i don't think there's any case at all for er changing th i don't think there was a case for changing the rules and i don't think there is a case for changing the rules today.
so you're out of step with people like douglas hurd and norman fowler?
well i mean i you know the let's have a discussion.
i don't think it's not a not a complete you can't get a headline, tories divided over rule changes.
you know it's 
i don't know, it's an interesting 
no no i don't believe that.
i think it's perfectly reasonable that the parliamentary party should have those sort of powers.
and i'll tell you why i think it's reasonable, because they would only use them seriously in extreme circumstances.
doesn't matter if i'm not going to name any names but i mean i've seen some people who it's been suggested might stand two hoots of a flick of a finger whether someone of the sort that i've seen mentioned, stood or not.
you are are you thinking of mrs theresa gorman there ?
i'm not going to i'm not i'm not going to be drawn into discussing the names of any particular person, i'm merely saying it would be of no consequence.
it would be a joke.
erm anyway i don't think it's gonna happen and i don't think it should happen.
let me make that absolutely clear.
but nor do i think that you should somehow try to cosset the position of the leader of the party.
in the extreme circumstances.
cos otherwise, i can tell you what the alternative is, the alternative is the men in grey suits which is a equally arbitrary process and it can as actually concentrate power in the hands of a very small number of people o sometimes perhaps unrepresentative of the parliamentary party.
is john major unassailable now?
yes i think er i mean my own view is that he well er erm lead the party at the next election and he'll win it.
er w i think there's a there's a desperately boring feature about the present political circumstances from the media's point of view.
and the more you stand back and look at it, the clearer it is.
every political leader of an advanced democracy, is in deep trouble, whether it's in america, japan, france, germany or britain.
they're in deep political trouble because the the electorate is simply distanced from the messages they have to put over.
for very obvious reasons.
the electorate is going through a very difficult period.
the economy has got huge problems associated with it.
people's lives are are profoundly affected.
so when a politician comes and says, well it's gonna get better, we've gotta try harder, this is the policy we're gonna pursue.
they're all saying,it's not doing me any good.
and it's not until that economic climate changes that people are l are able to to relate to what the politicians say.
there's nothing new in any of this, i remember nineteen eighty one.
but the media can't say that, they can't interpret that because what they've got to do is sell to their readers, a story which the readers want to hear.
and so the media are constantly giving the impression that there's something that the british government should be doing.
whilst there's a world economic malaise.
not sure you can blame the media altogether, i noticed you said there in almost these words er, john major will the lead the conservative party into the next election and the conservatives will win.
you said exactly that i quote word for word in november nineteen ninety and a week later what happened?
you challenged mrs thatcher and brought her down.
well it's interesting that er i mean these quotations get it must be very clever research.
well you offered it.
yeah well okay, well i haven't i mean, i i did i did actually think that mrs thatcher would lead us into the election.
er i thought that it was wrong that she should, as everybody knows.
er and i think frankly erm we won the election because she was not leader of the party.
that was my view and still my view and i think john major fought a very distinguished campaign er against the pundits it has to be said.
er i hope i did everything i could to help.
as i did mrs thatcher.
nobody worked harder in the nineteen eighty seven general election than i did.
yeah but the point i'm making is that you thought that would happen then.
you say it may happen it is going to happen now.
why should we believe it now any more than we believed it then .
well i i i mean there i thinking back, i didn't think at that stage, i hope i'm right about this,th that i had any idea that geoffrey howe was going to resign.
i never had the slightest intention of challenging mrs thatcher.
there was never my my view and and one day i shall if i ever get round to it i might set this all out.
my view was 
write your memoirs?
yeah.
in nineteen eighty six, my view was a very very clear one.
to survive.
i mean nobody thought i could do that.
i mean not many people who'd clashed with mrs thatcher did survive.
but i did, that was my determination.
john major is beset with problems, you wouldn't 
yeah.
argues that.
in fact you said er again if if i may offer you one of your quotes erm, if you have back benchers who won't support you, that limits governments abilities to take decisions.
you said that a few months ago.
since 
yeah.
then he's lost er you've lost another seat so his majority is even smaller, it's down from nineteen to seventeen.
so his er abilities to take decision are even er take decisions are even more limited now than they were then aren't they.
he is in greater trouble now than he was the for all sorts of reasons .
well no that doesn't follow.
no no.
er what i said then was true.
but it doesn't follow that he's in greater trouble now because 
smaller majority.
er no.
it isn't a small majority in any serious sense of majority .
smaller majority.
it is only small because a very limited number of conservatives on the back benches are not totally reliable on too many occasions.
and it tends to be i'm sad to have to say it, it tends to be a limited number of colleagues who are totally i think, removed from the mainstream of what the majority off us want to see, who are to prepared to withhold their voted in the house of commons.
and i think that there's going to come a point.
d i think john er put this question fairly to conference, if the tories want to behave like the labour party did, then we'll pay an electoral price for it.
i i'm not against i can't be against the right of a c of a member of parliament to withhold their vote from their government.
i have done it on about three occasions in a third of a century.
and i wouldn't change that vote and i respect people who are prepared to do it.
it requires guts and integrity.
i'm not against that.
but for the sort of college green psychology and the and the
for people who don't understand, college green is the bit of greenery outside westminster where people rush out to be interviewed on camera .
the dash the the the sort of headline dash out of the house of commons, the moment the news breaks, to get on television with some quick quote.
and then to withhold one's vote as with almost a matter of habit and routine, that cannot be in the best interests of the conservative party.
and you have to realize, none of us are there cos we've got happy smiling faces.
we're there because the conservative party chose us, and put us there.
yeah but 
and so we have obligations to them.
but you're not there you're not in parliament to represent the conservative party, you're in parliament to represent your constituents.
i i think you've got to just look at that constitutional concept.
the constituency that chose you was the conservative party.
that that chose you.
but you represent every individual in that constituency .
the the the no no no no you were chosen by the conservative party.
you then stand for election.
the reason why you're elected is because a sufficient number of people wanted a conservative government.
now it's perfectly true, they understand i hope rightly, within the framework and philosophy of the conservative party, that you have to respect the integrity of the individual.
but it doesn't mean to say that you are sending somebody who says he's a conservative, going to support a conservative government, and the moment he gets there is to be found all over the place.
yeah but if you feel strongly about a particular issue, erm elizabeth peacock, during the er coal pits erm dispute when she was very very upset at what your you were planning to do, closing down all those coal mines and and she went public about it.
she she it was for her a matter of conscience.
and she was representing the interests of her constituency.
you're not saying she shouldn't have been allowed to do that, she should have gone to john 
no i'm 
major quietly or to you quietly in some back room and said, look i'm a bit bothered about this .
no.
i've made it clear i i personally like virtually all colleagues at some stage voted against my party.
i and that will always be a right and proper thing for a member of parliament to do.
but it has to be done with great care, infrequently it is if you like, a nuclear deterrent in that sense.
and i don't quarrel with elizabeth peacock who i like and admire and get on very well with.
and actually have been to support on many occasions in her constituency.
erm but but i i'm not think of of elizabeth as a matter of fact.
and there are some colleagues who are today, much more lax with their loyalties.
and 
and i mean you yourself, you know, during the westland you you you left a cabinet meeting, apparently mrs thatcher thought you were going to the loo and you went on television to say, i'm resigning because i think she's got it wrong over westland.
she didn't think i was going to the loo.
well so we were told.
i dare say that's what you were told.
it's 
not what she thought.
did you say to her, i'm going out to re i'm going out and i may be gone for a long time.
i if i remember correctly those are words that led to the death of a very distinguished explorer.
i had no intention of dying the political death.
er the erm er fact of the matter was that er er as has been recorded by those less emotionally charged at that moment, i didn't flounce out of the cabinet.
i had made it quite clear
but you went on telly minutes later.
oh there was a television camera as you left downing street .
you went to a press conference.
er that was four o'clock in the afternoon.
no no i mean the the i mean when i've g been drawn er down a road i don't intend to go
no because the the point i'm trying to make is that it is unrealistic surely for the leader of the party to say to his mps who aren't delegates after all, but who represent the interests of their constituencies, shut up, come to me privately if you have any concerns.
that's not realistic is it .
i i i think he said, first, to me privately.
in other words, you talk it through, you try to resolve it.
not dash for the television cameras.
that was the point that i heard him make in brighton.
and and even there will come a time after the private dialogue, where he people have the right.
i let me give you an example, i've always respected erm teddy taylor and john biffen who have taken the extreme view on europe.
er i think they genuinely believe their case, it's not a case that i believe, but i i've always genuinely respected them for the case they take.
er so i i don't find it in my in myself to condemn people who as conservatives take a different view to myself.
but there has to be a degree of discretion, a degree of responsibility.
and you cannot have a situation where the the sort of almost the norm is, any difficult decision the government is gonna have to take, there'll be a dozen colleagues who say, not for us.
i mean i i just do not really understand whether people fully realize the gravity of the economic situation that we face.
we're gonna have a very difficult set of decisions to take, they're gonna be tough, there's no other government would take these decisions.
and there is a division within the party isn't there, a real ideological divide within the party over how to deal with that, whether to raise taxes, whether to cut spending further?
well this is the what i keep reading about the right left divide.
well i didn't use that phrase but 
first first no you didn't i mean no there's no reason why we shouldn't.
er every party is a coalition.
it consists of a whole range of interest groups, a whole range of people with great integrity, but approaching politics from a different point of view.
and the only basis upon which you can l lead a party of that sort, is to find a pivot th where you around which you can coalesce.
if ever you get to the stage where the left of the party or the right of the party, either extreme wing, feel that they've got such power, that they can pull the whole thing their way, the danger is that the bits at the other end will snap and that of course is the disunity danger which had absolutely devastated the labour party, where the left did exactly that and the moderate centre that's if you can call it that, snapped off.
for the conservative party which is in essence a party of power, huge historic perspective, huge experience of power, ever to get itself in a position where it's perceived to be struggling to the point of self destruction, would have its political consequences and they would be dire.
let's look not so much at the left right divide, but but at the tone of the party.
some people say that since you've been away, and the conference illustrated this quite dramatically, particularly the fringe meetings.
the tone of the party has changed.
on europe for instance, we've had er mr major telling the europeans to get the your tractors off our lawns.
david hunt calling delors a jumped-up socialist bureaucrat.
that sort off the language, the tone seems to have changed, to have got harder.
on europe first.
well er i i hear what you say, i my views on europe are very simple.
it's impossible to overstate the economic relationship we now have with europe.
two th nearly two thirds of our trade goes with europe.
i don't mind the sort of the use of language that gives this or that impression if that's what contemporary politics demands, i'm as guilty of that as er the next man.
but if we create a psychology in this country where to the men and women who earn the crust upon which we depend, our business community, are switched off to the significance of europe, there's only one people who'll suffer and it is us.
and when peter lilley says for instance 
i am not prepared to yeah yes, but you will not get me to to separate myself from my colleagues .
half well let me let me finish the the quote because well there are but but but but well alright but but peter lilley is saying, is suggesting in a in a speech at a party conference that half the population of continental europe are scroungers.
i mean one wonders how that helps this kind of partnership.
that that you obviously think is so important.
well i'm not prepared to become involved in er er discussing the speeches which i didn't hear or er which may well be out of context or anything of that sort.
i'm not prepared to do that.
no no but john, frankly 
oh come on, you heard that.
you know that wasn't out of context.
it simply it simply doesn't serve a purpose for me to allow that division to open up.
i will only use my words to describe my circumstance.
and i know that whatever the rhetoric, mrs thatcher used all the rhetoric, nobody took us further into europe than mrs thatcher.
all these regulations that we're now having to i'm having to with expert er help from my colleague er neil hamilton, having to look at and redo, do you know where they all came from?
most of them came from the single european act.
from the cofield agenda.
that mrs thatcher 
which which mrs thatcher rightly committed us to and rightly whipped us through the house and and it and it 
right, so we're to ignore all these things that we hear at the conference.
there is no difference between the the endless bad mouthing between local and central government, as one tries to blame the other.
and central government trying to blame the europeans.
the fact of the matter is, every directive that comes out of europe, comes with the agreement of the british government.
that's where it comes from.
it comes to us, we have to put it through the house of commons.
and often we are the people who embroider it and overbear it with all the complications ent that that are that are part of it.
and do you know where a lot of the the erm the directives from brussels come from?
they come from british pressure groups, who go to brussels with their particular case and argue in brussels to start the process of creating these regulations.
alright, let's lets look at some something else where people will say, are saying, the party has shifted, clearly clearly shifted towards the right.
and that's social policy.
erm and and i know you i'm not expecting you to comment on your colleagues, but let me quote something else that peter lilley said, the massive expansion of the welfare state since the war, has not been accompanied by any diminution of social problems.
any diminution of social problems.
that's sending quite a signal isn't it.
well i'd go further.
they're worse.
so poverty is worse?
er not relative not relative poverty because obviously the tide of prosperity has brought up the living standards of er the western world.
it's better not to have to have pensions than not to have pensions, surely not .
but but but look at the look.
oh no no no oh no that th er i that is not in er what i was talking about was the social values, er not the existence of the welfare state.
that has i mean most of the welfare state has been er it'll either created or extended by conservative government so 
but beveridge achieved nothing?
er no, beveridge did, but he never intended to achieve what we've got.
er i mean, you will know that i wrote a book called no time for ostriches in when i was on the back benches, in favour of work fare.
er i i think that with three million people out of work, we have an unemployment problem which creates erm a a disadvantage group particularly in some of the stress urban areas where we have to look at more radical solutions to what is basically the payment of cash for nothing in return.
now i have said that, it's not government policy, perhaps i'm stretching over the bounds of saying it, but er those these ideas are around.
but clearly, what you have said in the past has led us to believe that you think self help does not solve all the problems, the government now seems to be telling us 
you can't how can how can you talk about self help solving all the problems when you've got an aging population who'll never work again.
i'm talking about people who are already retired.
there's absolutely no point in saying to some sixty five year old or or seventy year old who's living on a state pension in a council house, what you've got to do is help yourself.
what's it mean?
so the government must help?
the state must help ?
well what c what what a what does the language of self help mean to a seventy year old living on a state pension in a council house?
what does it mean?
and unless you answer that question, you're just pandering to people's emotions.
now if you say to me, this is i go back to my work fare, if you're talking about the the young kids of of sixteen or who've left school, haven't got a job and they say, well i want my my welfare benefit.
you are entitled to say, well okay we understand you've got a problem, we know that there's an economic er er difficulty across the world, what are you gonna give us in exchange?
and beveridge would have been perfectly happy with that question.
peter lilley wouldn't.
well 
oth alright, i won't use the name peter lilley if you don't if you prefer i didn't.
others in the cabinet would not.
well s s but why so why should 
so many of those speeches blackpool 
why should we be worried about the existence of a debate in a cabinet.
i mean this is so n i remember, i used to go to nato alli er er er di discussions as defence ministers.
and people would sort of say, there's a division in nato.
as though it was a crime.
what was it, it was an alliance of democratic nations.
if you can't have a debate there, where can you?
well if
if you can't have a debate in cabinet, what's the point off cabinet?
i y c yes, debates in cabinet perhaps, but we're not talking about debates in cabinet, we're talking about speeches made at blackpool or at fringe meetings of blackpool, which lead people to believe that the government is moving substantially towards the right.
now that's significant, that isn't just a this isn't just a debate about some vague ideological nicety, how many angels on the head of a pin?
this is fundamental to the way british politics is going .
well you should y i i i er these la these these labels are so difficult to fit because if you say, moving to the right, you then have to show me what policies the government is pursuing and you'll probably find that i either play the part in thinking off argu arguing for them some years before some of my colleagues.
well i'm talking about policies that haven't yet been instituted.
i mean 
sure.
we've got we've got michael howard now talking about, maybe it's better if er if the illegitimate children of single mums erm are adopted, rather than stay with their mothers.
well i mean that is i i something that well to the best off my knowledge, the government has not announced or taken any sort of decision on.
but the home secretary is saying, you know, this is something we will think about .
well i you'll forgive me the disadvantage, i'm not trying to cop out, but the disadvantage of not having been immediately involved is that i haven't seen that quotation from michael .
alright but if but you would not approve of that kind of language of that kind of er expression of government intent if that's what it was .
i i i i would i think that would be something that would be controversial.
er i would like to k to know more about what michael is saying before i got involved in any discussion of that.
and when mrs thatcher, when lady thatcher, talks about the thatcher inheritance, that much more sincure being that much more secure .
i i have always been worried about the personalization of er what i believe is the great traditions in the tory party.
i know i've worked for churchill, eden, macmillan, hulme, heath, thatcher, we never had this personalization of the great traditions until very recently.
and frankly i think it and i hope to god that john i d i know he doesn't want to see it happen to him, i hope to god it doesn't.
because it it's it's it's a i mean frankly it it gives the impression that this remarkable political force which has governed a democracy longer than any other political f party in history, has somehow or other created a new philosophy in the last ten years.
mi 
what have we been doing all this time?
michael heseltine i'll have to stop you there, thank you very much indeed.
thank you.
michael heseltine talking to me a little earlier today.
and now to the government's plan to sell off british rail.
before the summer holidays, the house of lords carried an amendment moved by lord peyton a former conservative minister, which allows british rail to bid against private companies for franchises to operate services.
the transport secretary john macgregor has been totally opposed to that because it would mean nothing changing in effect.
b r would still run b r. however, as david walter discovered, he may not have enough troops in the commons to reverse that amendment.
the gatwick express, on the fast track to the private sector.
today this becomes the first railway shadow franchise, its operations hived off into a separate company ready to be sold.
these plans are running to schedule, the rest of rail privatization is not.
the problem is lord peyton's amendment in the lords last summer.
that allowed british railways itself to bid for franchises, something the original bill rules out.
the government fears that it wrecks the bill, that b r with an unfair advantage over its competitors, could keep lines like this in its clutches.
but lord peyton has many fellow travellers in the commons.
since we had the debates in june, we've had the unfortunate experience er of stagecoach.
which basically found it couldn't make a railway service run and dropped it.
we've had the winter timetable which er proposes some quite serious cuts in services, and we've had of course, the constant rumour off fairs increases.
so for all those reasons, i think my colleagues may be more inclined to go for a cautious approach that's enshrined in the peyton approach, than they were back in er june.
i think the government should slow down on all its activities at the present time and concentrate on getting the economy right, and everything else put on the back burner.
and that should apply also w with the railways.
there's no great enthusiasm in in this country for railway privatization.
the railways must be kept together say on the on the peyton amendment and they could raise money on the private market.
but it keeps together the idea that they're going to broke up br broken up into competing er items, worries people in my constituency and it also alarms me.
tories who feel rebellious about the railways, may not have to push their protest to the point of voting against the government.
a humiliating defeat which he suffered at the hands of lord peyton in the house of lords, has concentrated john macgregor's mind.
and he's promised to look again at the case for allowing british rail to bid for franchises.
the rebels have been conducting intensive negotiations with him behind the scenes.
and they're hopeful that he will give way.
sweden's railways provide a model of the kind of system that britain could have if the peyton amendment stays in the railway privatization bill.
this line, winding its way between the isolated communities of erstogoetsland southeast of stockholm, was one of twenty one regional railways offered for sale five years ago.
a private operator won the first five franchises, but after that, the state company s j won all but one of the remaining sixteen.
on this line, they beat off two private sector competitors.
this line goes to linnchurping seat of the regional government of erstogoetsland which had the task of awarding the franchise.
they chose the state railways because theirs was the lowest bid.
they gave them a three year trial period, to see how attractive they could make the service.
we had to see what happened to these railways er is more people going to er to go by train, or are less going to go.
and er we got the results now and er we more than doubled it.
it's more than double as much people who is today going by train than before.
swedish railways are among the world's market leaders.
their pride and joy is the x two thousand, a tilting passenger train that operates at high speed on conventional track.
britain abandoned a similar project eleven years ago.
in the five years since they were first subjected to competition, swedish railways have transformed both their efficiency and their performance.
some experts believe that british rail would respond to competition in the same way.
it is possible to consider a situation where most franchises remain being run by groups of b r managers and a few franchises are run by private sector companies.
the advantage of that would be that if the private sector does have things to offer in the way of better labour practices, better marketing ideas, then these will be copied by the b r system and in sweden it's quite evident that although very few franchises have gone to the private sector, it has had a quite drastic effect on the way in which the state railway goes about its business.
certainly swedish railways have taken to acting as toughly as any enterprise in the private sector.
while improving the quality of their service to passengers, they've cut their staff by thirty percent.
since they were first expose to competition.
the customers enjoy all the benefits of private sector efficiency from a state company.
we have restructured the whole company and we are working exactly as a private company.
and we have also done introduced the same working methods er as you can find er outside in the private industry.
cos there are people in britain who simply don't believe that the public sector can be as efficient as the private sector.
i think we can show that this is possible.
er and as you said, the only goal we had to start with was that we should turn the big losses into profit.
this was going on.
and this was just enough for us, coming from the industry.
in sweden, introducing competition's had a dramatic effect on the state run railway system.
the experience here suggests that a publicly owned operator can provide a better and more efficient service than private enterprise, given the right conditions.
and the same could apply in britain.
at least a growing number of tory mps are coming round to the idea.
the key question is how many conservative m ps are on board for the peyton amendment.
the tory whips are busy counting heads to work out whether there'll have to be a government retreat.
for a start they can't guarantee the ulster unionists'll be on the government tickets this time.
the bill could create an precedent for irish rail from the republic to buy northern ireland railways.
as for tory m ps, some of them prefer to remain anonymous, but on the record has now found twenty one members who've told the government, they back peyton.
on top of that, there's the buckingham mp george walden who's likely to abstain on the whole bill.
and there are enough tory back benchers who's names are in the open to force the government to compromise.
i know that certain of my er west country colleagues er are uneasy about the bill.
i i detect a very considerable unease in the home counties.
where as i say, the railway is a very very important issue.
erm and i do not detect talking to colleagues say on the right of the party, any great enthusiasm for this measure in the way it's presently er designed.
so i think that er we are in quite a strong position.
you only need a a handful of colleagues with strong views er opposing an issue you immediately create a cliffhanger.
there's very little that the that the chief whip can do to avoid that situation.
on a matter of importance but divided opinion, like privatization.
but i think there is room for compromise here.
i'd be surprised at the end of the day if er we didn't find a solution that would enable john macgregor to go forward.
the privatization bill will probably have to go back to the upper house, whatever happens in the commons.
lord peyton has the right to stick to his guns and he's disinclined to give in after the majority he won last time.
his amendment was carried by thirty eight votes.
they have voted, contents, one hundred and fifty, not contents, one hundred and twelve.
so the contents have it.
as far as i know, the all the people who voted er for the amendment, will continue to do so and a great many of of those who voted against it and were quite unaw were not at the time a fully aware of what is proposed, er may well change their mind.
so i think the government would have quite a task on it's hands.
there's certainly a lot of passion about this in the house of lords.
er the house of lords is not a particularly passionate place but er nevertheless it is capable of strong feelings and er i don't think it it expressed a fairly clear opinion on this occasion.
er and i think it's likely to hold to it.
back at victoria, passengers who want to travel to gatwick, now have a choice of fare.
on the gatwick express, there's the luxury price.
eight sixty please.
alternatively they can travel on the slightly slower network southeast for only seven pounds fifty.
tory loyalists argue that the peyton amendment would jeopardize this sort of competition, because it would deter enterprising b r managers from leaving the public sector to stage management buy-outs.
i don't think that i could ever support the peyton amendment, the amendment in the house of lords, which if i get it right, would permit b r as an organization to bid for franchises.
i don't mind managers getting together and having in a sense management buy- outs.
teaming up with private individuals to bid for franchises.
but iff you actually allow b r as an organization to bid, i think it's making a nonsense of privatization because you're saying in essence there isn't anything wrong with b r management at the moment and we'll let them take over the network.
and in that case why, why privatize?
all the same, mps from the right of the party are boarding the peyton train along with left wing tories.
if john major intended the bill to convince the right of his radical instincts, he may have misjudged them.
i don't think rail privatization has ever been really debated inside the conservative party.
most people prefer privatization on the right of the party, where i stand, but it's not something that we get up early in the morning and actually pray for at every day.
and i think at the present time, all of us on the right are more concerned about getting the economy right and cutting government expenditure that carrying on with er schemes of a privatization that might or might not succeed.
what do you think the position of the transport secretary would be in the house of commons if he was forced to drop what is after all a very major plank of his programme?
well er they would er knowing the house of commons as we do, there would inevitable be some catcalls and some hoots of derision.
but i don't think go governments or ministers should be deterred by them.
indeed i think that the the the present secretary of state for whom i have great respect and regard, i think he would be very well advised to think again, because i think that the temporary derision that he would meet in the house of commons would be nothing as compared with the the er the wounding that he will sustain later if and when things go wrong with these proposals.
at the end of september, a flight across the channel achieved a notable victory on the issue of airline subsidies for the transport secretary, john macgregor. success for his team on the railways bill, may prove more elusive.
a climb-down wouldn't be easy.
they've already spent two hundred million pounds preparing for privatization.
but with the government under fire from so many directions, the pressure to give way on the peyton amendment, could be difficult to resist.
i'm not sure about a u-turn on a railway line, more of a shunt perhaps.
however, now for the return of our resident sage, john cole.
so it's unity then?
well only up to a point lord copper.
returning from my prolonged summer break, i was initially almost as sceptical as the tory faithful at blackpool that john major faces a leadership crisis.
and the ecstatic reception for his speech, might confirm that view among the politically innocent at least.
so might the way in which this week has gradually marginalized margaret thatcher.
a senior minister, looking at the vast new platform which turned the winter gardens into a television set, suggested that it really ought to contain a pantheon for past leaders.
ted ought to have been there years ago, he said, and now it's time for margaret to be elevated.
we could venerate them as ancestors.
a bit chinese?
i ventured.
no no, he answered, this is maoist ancestor worship, just the tory variety.
the crisis only seems to eased because of ruthless conference management and because tories have looked over the precipice and seen the disastrous consequences of disunity.
at least some of them saw that.
others on the right saw the fearsome prospect of a kenneth clarke leadership.
clarke himself believes the party simply couldn't bear another leadership contest coming so soon after the thatcher dismissal.
tories are not much given to freudian analysis, but one minister said, the party remained psychotic after the trauma of three years ago.
the victor, presumably ken clarke, would be like a goth or vandal marching into the smoking ruins of rome.
but what if john major's party does badly in the european and council elections next year.
this loyalist replied, ah well if john were blamed for that, he'd be in trouble.
another major enemy said, with ostentatious sadness, that he feared once the public decided a prime minister was not up to the job, he'd find it all but impossible to eradicate that impression.
one insider speculated whether if party opinion remained against him, major would like the more sporting of his cricketing heros, walk from the wicket, even before the umpire's dismissive finger went up.
those who know him best think, he's more of a fighter than that.
the received wisdom is that if the leadership crisis does erupt, it'll happen this time next year.
meanwhile prospective runners move with studied casualness into the saddling enclosure.
clarke's the unchallenged hero of one nation tories.
michael howard, the senior right winger now, might not have as much support as the more philosophical michael portillo.
two junior ministers complained to me of portillo's ideological zeal in cabinet committee.
when others urge caution for electoral reasons, he argues that it's not worth being in government if you can't do the things you believe in.
the minister himself recognizes this portrait but delights in the political clout he has as the treasury man on many such committees, able to range over the whole field of policy.
but portillo whose spanish name meaning the narrow gate, is very citable to a man responsible for sanctioning public spending bids, would need a department of his own before he became a serious leadership candidate.
oddly, if the p m risks giving him one in the next reshuffle, it might be a sign that his own confidence is returning.
ministers and whips are worried what the mood of their mps will be when they get back to westminster.
most fears centre on whether the maastricht rebels and populists like the wintertons, tony marlowe 
good morning, everyone.
i think we have nearly a full house but there may be one or two more people to come.
erm taking part within the presentation this morning ah are frank who is the fr managing director of pearsons, and james er, who's the finance director.
er we're going to take questions at the end er the camera there is for internal use only and at the end we'll hand out copies of the slides to anyone who wants them.
our profits are disappointingly small in relation to, er er, the, er first half of last year er then, we had buoyant conditions and we made more money than we ever had before.
recession had already promised a slow start to this year er, but in january when worry about the gulf actually gave way to the war itself erm, the trading climate which was already weak erm worsened still further.
er, consumer confidence fell away and u k consumers kept more of their cash in their pockets er, in fact, erm, they saved over two and a half billion pounds more in the first quarter of ninety one than they had in the same er, quarter of last year.
one immediate casualty of the change in conditions was advertising.
recruitment adversiding advertising for example virtually ground to a halt as businesses started to shed er, people, rather than to look for them.
so what happened to our trading profit?
in this analysis er, if you set aside the effect of our sale of elsivir er, the variance was forty nine million seventy percent of which relates to the u k. the drop in profits from our newspapers was the biggest and probably the most widely expected a substantial proportion of their costs are fixed and, er, they therefore are particularly sensitive to, er changes in volume.
fine china and investment banking inevitably er, er er er er suffered from the economic conditions so did entertainment er, which also brought two extra burdens er, firstly the er marked reduction in tourism and, er, for the first time, a three and a half million pound er, bill for alton towers' loss-making winter quarter which i think we, we've flagged er, quite consistently.
after newspapers, books showed the largest decline er, and the fifteen million variance is shared roughly one fifth by addison wesley and two fifths apiece by penguin and longman.
two of the abiding characteristics of these businesses are first that like newspapers a high proportion of their costs are fixed and secondly, unlike newspapers er, their main selling season is in the second half of the year.
outside aw's erm, specialists books er, er, markets er, book sales have been almost universally slow there were very high returns as book sellers everywhere reacted to reduced er, demand by replacing or winding down their stock.
this particularly affected penguin substantially increasing its spec i its expected first half loss.
penguin also incurred losses of two million on smithmark its american remainder book businesses er, before selling it.
longman the least seasonally biased of the three struggled to break even in the first half and this removed the normal pattern of longman's half-year profits helping to offset the first half losses of the other two businesses but before we get too depressed er i point out that addison wesley s sales were up by eleven percent and the size of the first half loss reflects the company's decision to gear up in advance er, for what we w believe will be a very strong er, second er, half performance.
er, overall i think it's right to say that we're disappointed by these results but we're not downhearted.
all of our businesses have maintained or improved their market shares as managers we concentrate on the full year rather on either half and because of our seasonal bias er, those of you who've been, er, to our interim presentations before er, will remember that without fail i tell you our results at the half-way stage are not a clear guide to the outcome of the year as a whole.
the major part of our profits are made in the second half er, and this year er will certainly be no exception.
to underline the point i thought i'd show you this four year average one thing that the exercise shows is that between them our book, entertainment and fine china businesses normally account for about seven percent of pearson's annual profit in their first half and for about thirty three percent of our profit in the full year.
this year their net first half contribution was negative which will strongly exaggerate the seasonal bias towards the second half er, conditions will still be far from ideal but with the gulf factor out of the way and some visible improvement in our overseas markets, particularly north america we think the trading environment will be broadly equivalent to that of the second half of last year.
now, er, before i hand over to frank er, a word about the dividend er, in recent years we've paid an interim dividend which was half the total of the previous year's dividends and so, er, had a built-in increase.
this year we thought it right to reserve our judgment er, until the end of the year so we matched last year's interim.
frank.
well as michael says, we're not proud of the results er, and we're not going to try and dress them up, michael hasn't tried to do that and i certainly don't intend to.
but nevertheless i do want to er, bring home to you the underlying strength of our businesses there's no question, we're very wel very well faced for, for an upturn.
but before doing that er, you may reasonably ask what action we've taken er, during this year when it's been such a difficult year.
do you remember at the announcement of last year's results we erm we mentioned that we were concentrating on four themes one's cost reduction er driving for cash erm, improving our market share and investing for the future.
starting with cost reduction any cost reduction programme always involves a lot of redundancy and, and this is no exception and from the slide you'll see that we've er we've had a staff reduction er, from the the plan for this year of one thousand and thirty three er and that's the, that will save us in a full year something like fifteen point nine, sixteen million pounds.
this year er, there's been a negative benefit in the first half of two million and there'll be a positive benefit in the second half of two million.
incidentally, it doesn't include the disposal of smithmark we've also er we've also gone in for other cost reduction exercises, for instance at er dalton with a review of warehousing and distribution er, we should save about a million pounds in a full year and we've been ramming home to our chief executives the need for annual payroll reviews to be geared to the profitability of the company rather than t rather than to the rate of inflation er, or even, er in, even the market place.
driving for cash er well an indication of how strongly we, we've been driving for cash is that er the reduction i in er operating cash flow is less than the reduction in profit.
we've been telling our chief executives that even though you can't get the sales then at least try to work on your working capital, try and get your working capital er, ratio down.
and there's been quite a bit of success in in that area both of the newspaper companies er, are doing better than last year and er longmans for instance expect er expect their operating cash flow erm their working capital rather to be lower this year than last year by by year end.
erm improving market share, well all of our businesses have improved their market share during this recession and i'll, i'll mention them as i go through the individual companies.
investing for the future although, although we've been keen to drive for cash er, we really wanted to, to use the benefit of having a strong balance sheet and so where investment has seemed sensible and sound, we've made those investments, of course we've put er, cash in the b sky b er and we've also invested further in the er spanish group, the recollectors group taking our stake in expansion, adding some cash and getting a stake in the bigger bigger grouping.
if we look at the individual businesses there we er see the individual profits.
if we start with the financial times well by their standards it's not a good result er, but again let's get it in context, the newspaper's trading margin is just, just under ten percent, it's er it's about nine point six percent er, and on the circulation front they've done well in market share terms where we've marginally improved our our market share in the quality market.
er in europe we've gone up six percent in circulation and in japan we're on target there and under budget.
in advertisement, er in the advertisement volume area, again we've increased our market share amongst the qu er, quality dailies a marginal increase er but it's nationally we've done very well and for instance in europe we're sixteen percent head, ahead of last year in volume and revenue terms.
on the cost side, apart from the redundancies i mentioned, well including the redundancies i mentioned er, the non volume related costs are only three percent ahead of the previous year.
east india dock is now er, virtually fully utilized printing the basildon papers in the daytime and the financial times at night and the observer on saturday night and we've got high hopes of getting the contract to print the japanese er, european edition of the japanese daily and that, that will fill the morning slot so that really will be er, great utilization of, of that er installation.
has been affected on the revenue front mainly in the medical publishing but to some extent in the erm in the financial sector although we're still absolutely market dominant in that sector but we've increased the circulation there by ten percent.
the f t magazines have all increased their market share and profile, our electronic, er erm, information business has grown in revenue terms by twelve percent.
turning to westminster press the cost westminster press in a full year er, will amount to three point eight million pounds and er .
all of our paid fors have er, done very well this year in circulation terms all but two of them have increased their circulation in the first half, despite quite high price rises, for instance the york county newspaper, the weekly there, we have a daily but the weekly there went up by five p and the weekly in bath where again we have a daily that went up by six p.
and every single westminster press centre has increased its market share.
turning to er books and starting with longman.
well there as i mentioned a staff reduction of a hundred and ninety two and significant er staff reduct er cost reduction in other, other areas we, we analyze every single er publishing unit and where the erm where they were marginally profitable or less than marginally profitable er we've taken appropriate action.
and as i mentioned earlier longman expect the cash flow this year to be better than last year despite the the reduction in profits.
last year i told you alhambra er, was receiving the treatment.
this year it's on profit, on budget at the half-way stage and i expect it to be on budget by the end of the year.
we mentioned a small acquisition in japan last year,medi on the medical side of longman, p p s k k it cost us about four million pounds and we were reckoning on a profit of about half a million a year pleased to say that its er, its profit looks like getting to a million pounds by the year end.
and english language teaching at longman which is of course the biggest er biggest profit contributor erm their blueprint sale is expected to exceed nine hundred thousand this year.
addison wesley our american college publisher as michael mentioned th at the half-way stage their sales were eleven percent ahead of er, last year, and you may remember last year they had record sales and record profits and er they're forecasting er something like fourteen percent a head by the year end in sales terms and they are expecting to maintain their their margins and last year was a very good margin indeed.
once again there's been great emphasis on cash maintenance.
penguin the staff reduction there doesn't look particularly er high but then we were reducing staff there last year and we've er, we've disposed of smithmark and the travel guides er, the warehouse and distribution system is working very well and we've been adding distribu distribution clients there er the autumn list looks very strong indeed particularly in the u s especially and er, we've shipped er, over two million of stephen king's latest book and there's another one due in the autumn and we're expecting to ship about two and a half million of er of, of that one.
er in the u k we've held our market position and it's been a a pretty desperate market we were one of the few if not the only book seller who refused to er to yield better discount terms er, on the threat of er every, every book seller was every er publisher was threatened with erm not being stocked unless we gave bigger discounts.
we held our position against that and i'm pleased to say er, we will continue, we will continue to be stocked.
er our distribution system has got great press recently and it's regarded as one of the three best distribution systems in the u k. one of the things we're trying to do is to pay less for our books, it's very easy to pay very very fancy prices for, for er mid-range authors and for them not to earn out, so we're looking for much cheaper books.
a good example is dances with wolves which cost us four thousand as a and has already sold over a hundred and twenty thousand copies.
penguin continues to try and develop its merchandising and is quite successful and the latest success is to get the flower fairies adopted by marks and spencers for their sleepwear range which will also be marketed in the u s a as well.
federal and capital is a small er but high quality er new er newsletter business in the states and er it's done very well indeed to improve its profits.
on the entertainments side er, last year of course we had that one-off benefit with not having to absorb the first quarter's loss and this year the er first quarter was pretty disastrous because we had an er er an er amalgamation of, of a the gulf war b the recession and in london i r a bombing and that really stopped tourists coming to london from overseas and from the rest of the u k. but i'm pleased to say that er we, we're coming back very strongly and for instance in july at virtually all of our centres attendances were either up to last year very nearl very nearly up to last year or ahead of last year and er at chessington our revenue was thirteen and a half percent up on last year which i think justifies our investment there.
some of our competitors in the north have been er really struggling and erm offering four pounds off on a seven pound fifty entrance fee so bearing that in mind we're v v very confident that we've im improved our market share in that area too.
we opened our amsterdam, our new exhibition in amsterdam in june and er, up to now audiences have flocked there many weeks they've been thirty percent ahead of er ahead of budget.
moving on to b sky b well it's making excellent progress by the end of july we had over two point three million homes connected and over half of those are subscribing to one or two movie channels.
costs are well down and will continue to fall and i'm more confident than ever that we're on to a winner.
if we move to oil well our oil business obviously operates in a cycle different to our publishing businesses and er, at the end of the first half it had record sales and profits fifteen percent ahead in dollar terms ten percent ahead in, in sterling terms which may surprise you slightly, but i think james probably will talk about that later.
this is a particularly good performance, specially in the u s a where there's been a very serious downturn in natural gas.
we've increased our market shares virtually everywhere er two very strong er improvements venezuela and nigeria and the the initiative we've taken with the soviets to rework their wells er should be onstream by the end of the year and we're hoping that may lead to other opportunities er, both in russia and er and there's the possibility from that of some business in eastern europe as well.
investment banking although this year it's a very different difficult environment for investment banking particularly a house that concentrates on, on corporate finance er there hasn't been a great deal of m and a activity and if, if there has it hasn't been a very high erm very high ticket.
er but there have been a lot of issues and we've done well in that field but of course it doesn't produce the same kind of fee income as the m and a activity.
lazzards new york managed to maintain their figures of last year in dollar terms and if we take the lazzard houses as a whole we're second only to goldman sachs now in the erm in the m and a table internationally and that's on the value of bids on which we've advised.
fine china we had a very poor first four months but then in may world sales were nine point nine percent ahead of last year and in the u s a over the last ten weeks we've actually been ahead of nineteen ninety.
one factor in this is our exporting the very successful bridal collection that we developed in the u k, we've exported that to canada and the u s and that's gone down very well indeed.
we've also had significant growth in our chain store business in this country we've signed a new two-year contract with air canada and we're much more optimistic about the rest of the year we've got orders, production and sales all nicely in equilibrium ready for the second half.
now i'll pass you to er james.
i'd just like to make two or three points first of all the exchange factor which frank touched upon when, when talking about profits you probably all totally familiar but i have forgotten quite how much the dollar has strengthened recently beginning of the year it was nearly two dollars and the result of that is that for the erm first half as a whole the impact of er exchange translation was adverse for our profits compared with last year to the tune of about one and a half million pounds.
it's not enormous but it's perhaps er not the way people er were thinking.
now the consequence of the fact that the dollar end of june er relatively strong at around one sixty of course did impinge on er our er borrowings since we do have a considerable percentage of our gross in dollar terms and if we turn to the next slide er we can see er the summary of the balance sheet at thirtieth of june.
now you'll be familiar with the fact since we went through it in april that there has been a sharp jump in our known assets brought about by the sale of elsivir and the fact that it had a very substantially written down value in our books, seventy five million pounds.
so you've had a sharp increase in our shareholders' funds during the six months and a reduction in our net debt which may not be quite as er substantial as you expected but it is the combination of on the one hand the proceeds of elsivir less some reinvestment which frank mentioned, we put a little more money in b s b and the minority interests and we do have traditionally in the first half an adverse net movement of funds from operation about ninety five million and then we had thirty two million odd er of simply revaluation as a result of translating our dollar debt at er the one sixty as opposed to the year ending rate.
so net debt is two sixty four million er and therefore the pro forma debt equity ratio's halved from fifty seven percent to twenty eight percent we do of course expect it to be somewhat lower by the year end as our working capital which is coming to its peak season, unwinds.
i'd like to go into a little more the composition of the net debt which again is something that er interests some of you we have er a reduction both on gross debt and equally an increase in cash as you would expect as a result of the elsivir sale the increases are not fixed debt fixed term fixed rate debt is a function again of the exchange rate we haven't in issued any more the whole of the reduction of debt therefore is confined to our floating rate or variable debt and that amount's ready to the repayment of the gilder drawings we had under our to hedge or partially to hedge our holding in elsivir we have increased our cash holdings and they remain concentrated in sterling as part of our sterling er asset er portfolio which is managed from millbank and which we regard as our investable funds as and when needed.
the child victims of war.
images that are now a daily occurrence in dozens of countries across the world.
millions of young lives have now been devastated.
it's all placing an intolerable burden on charities like save the children who say far too often the international community is not pulling its weight.
in somalia the combination of war and famine claimed a quarter of a million children dead last year.
today in the capital mogadishu a hundred thousand more driven from their homes, are dependent on food aid for survival.
in bosnia the war has been especially cruel on children.
one estimate puts the number dead in sarajevo alone at twelve hundred and some fourteen thousand wounded.
in northern iraq over a hundred thousand kurdish children are still unable to return to their homes after being forced to flee saddam hussein's army.
many are living in appalling conditions without clean water and proper sanitation.
in mozambique, more than two hundred thousand have been orphaned or separated from their families.
three quarters of a million children have been forced to seek refuge in neighbouring countries, others are disabled for life.
in the west african republic of liberia where eighty five per cent of the population have been displaced, children, some as young as eight are being placed in secure compounds to prevent them from going back to fight for the waring factions.
children who've been given at a far too tender age, the terrible power of holding a loaded gun and be able to command everything in sight as a result of that, have actually got to get back and rediscover childhood.
lost innocence, a pattern that's sadly being repeated across the world's battle grounds.
bill hamilton, b b c news.
can anybody fail, fail to be moved by those pictures.
children really are under fire throughout the world, literally and metaphorically.
even in those countries where the, the real firing has stopped, there's the aftermath.
many of the wars, most of the wars, are civil wars and you know the bitterness, the lingering bitterness after a civil war doesn't help the children who have suffered from that war.
also just think of the troubles in our own northern ireland, right on our doorstep.
think of the problems that children have there.
but even where there is no real warfare, man's inhumanity to children has caused serious deprivations of rights and of benefits generally.
food, health support, education, kindness,care, affection.
these are all features of a child's life that they need.
otherwise children, without those, grow up physically,psychologically damaged and the purpose of save the children fund is to work to give children the chance of a better childhood and the chance to grow up to be adults who won't repeat the sins of their forefathers.
your royal highness, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this annual public meeting in this, our seventy forth anniversary year.
some of you er may take it amiss if i were to describe you as veterans but my by contrast, this is my first annual public meeting and not just as chairman.
i've never had the opportunity to attend one before.
although i have been a long time supporter.
today, her royal highness nick hinton and his team will talk about the very impressive work and the tasks that lie ahead in the fifty countries and the u k in which save the children operates.
i i will talk about the fund as i found it in my capacity as a very recent chairman.
a fresh pair of eyes.
a fresh pair of eyes of a relative new boy and the first thing i noticed was my family's reaction.
it was as though they were saying to me, at last you're doing something worthwhile and respectable.
my first impression was how well everything runs and in saying that i really am paying a tribute to previous chairmen.
for whose efforts on behalf of the fund i i really do thank them and i'd like to make a special thanks to lady chandler, lucy stepped into the breach as acting chair about a year ago and since i was elected has done a tremendous amount to help me settle in quickly and i hope effectively.
i'm most impressed also with the hard work, the dedication and the, the sheer efficiency of the director general and his top team.
i was talking, yesterday as it happened, to the chairman of another very large children's charity and i asked him how his, the spend, the annual spend of that charity was distributed between the work of the charity, the purpose of the charity and the support functions and he said about eighty twenty.
now i have to tell you that last year we raised a hundred and thirteen million pounds and of that over ninety per cent, that's a hundred and four million pounds were actually spent on projects for children and i'm very proud of that ratio indeed and i think it ought to give you, the raisers of money, a great deal of comfort because for a fund with two headquarters buildings which operates all over the world this is a distribution of funds of which to be proud.
now i've met not many yet, but very impressive, a few very impressive field workers.
i've not had a chance to visit abroad yet but i think i've got two visits booked next year to various remoter parts of the world, but i've met some who are on leave, recuperating from the circumstances they've been in, sometimes illness, sometimes just the sheer tension of being under fire.
each country presents its challenges, some physically demanding, others morale sapping, there is disease, there are primitive conditions in which to live and work.
i'd just like to mention one, somalia.
i'd like to pay a tribute to the courage of our people there, both the indigenous er workers for the fund and the ex-pats who've gone out there to lead that work.
we're in touch with them every day, they refuse to leave and we're very grateful to them for their efforts.
but those in the field, the front line could not continue without the less than glamorous work that has to be carried out back here in h q. they also serve, who work in our offices, collect our money, keep our accounts make sure the administration is working well.
produce the educational material which is superb.
and i visited both offices and i'm most impressed by the cheerful dedication and sheer hard work and efficiency of the people i've met.
but the people i want to thank most are you the volunteers.
people without whom we wouldn't be able to raise so much money.
it's your tireless efforts as fund raisers that enable save the children fund to survive.
if children are to be helped in the u k and throughout the world then we all have to succeed in persuading people to donate.
those who work in our shops, those who arrange events, those who collect great and small sums of money from companies and from individuals, are all playing a vital part in the continuing work of save the children fund.
i think we call er the volunteers, or those who run the shops anyway, sally's army and that is in my way a tribute to sally barker who's chairman of our branches advisory committee and does so much to make sure that the money does get raised in the field.
it's a chairman's very pleasant duty to thank you all.
as you will know we're given large sums of money by governments, the e e c and others, to work in countries in need, to tackle specific tasks.
but the money that comes in that way never fully covers the expenses involved in supporting our efforts in those countries.
the money you raise therefore is extremely important in enabling the s c f to tackle major, major tasks.
without that money we would not carry on and we could not carry out our work effectively.
i therefore am thanking you not, not just as a courtesy but in order to convey just how important your efforts are and just how important the seventy fifth birthday appeal is going to be next year.
if that succeeds we really will be able to maintain the momentum of the fund and the work that it does throughout the world.
if we don't raise our targets, we shall stumble but i'm absolutely confident from all the news that comes in from the field, that we shall raise our targets.
i know that plans are well advanced throughout the country for a massive collecting effort next year and i want to wish all of you involved all the very best in your efforts as we approach these days, that's to say donation days, in the coming year.
i'm sure your spirits will rise to the occasion like the balloons in our logos and the banners at the side here.
rise to the occasion.
but i cannot finish er without also thanking most warmly, our supreme supporter in the task of fund raising, her royal highness.
i know you will agree with me, that her example is inspiring to us all.
save the children fund and children throughout the world have every reason to be grateful for her unstinting efforts.
it's not often a chairman has the chance to thank her royal highness publicly and i do so with pleasure now.
and now to illustrate aspects of save the children's fund and its long term health work, here now is a short video shot on location in lesotho in southern africa and in pennywell in sunderland.
thank you.
save the children's work is not just about dealing with emergency situations.
it is mainly concerned with long term development.
lesotho is one of the poorest countries in the world, surrounded by south africa it has few of its own resources.
in places like this poor water supply and sanitation is a major cause of death.
contaminated water kills more people than any poison.
nine thousand children a day die from one of six preventable diseases around the world.
to combat these problems needs a concerted and effective approach.
lesotho is one of eight countries across the globe in which save the children has introduced the riders for health project, working with the ministry of health, a successful programme has been developed which provides primary health care to almost five times as many villages that could have been reached on foot.
the save the children fund programme with the motorcycles has made a very big difference to the number of visits that health assistants can make to villages.
before they had the motorcycles they had to walk which meant a lot of travelling time and then less time at the, each village when they arrived.
now with the motorcycles they spend less time travelling and they can spend more time in the villages doing their educational and health work.
we found that the number of visits that on average that they can do has increased by four or five hundred per cent.
in fact they couldn't really do their job without the motorcycles.
previous attempts to start the project before nineteen ninety had failed because of poor maintenance to the bikes, and accidents.
by introducing specialist training and good management the bikes have been used extensively.
that's good well forwards excellent, well done, very good.
the learning process from this project has been invaluable and it's allowed save the children to move forward in several other countries.
recent research into how governments and donors contribute to the provision of health services shows that effective long term systems need to be put into place.
these can be worked through with local cooperation.
riders for health is a good example of what can be achieved through good planning.
i think that the riders for health project has given us ah a model that can be used in a great many other situations and we've found here in lesotho that many other ministries and government departments are interested in what we're doing because the motorcycles, if used properly, can provide a very cost effective form of transport.
it is their work in the villages which is most impressive.
the local health workers are able to spread basic advice on health and cleanliness as well as providing cheap but effective medicine such as immunisations and rehydration salts.
most importantly the workers help to improve the local water supply.
clean water saves more lives than any medicine that can be provided by the human race so far.
degosang is three years old.
she lives in a remote village, ten kilometres from a paved road.
she now has clean water from a pump that mohali her health advisor, helped the village to organise and build.
it is these basic measures which can make a difference to saving lives all over the world.
each year five million children die from the lethal effects of diarrhoea, four million from respiratory diseases like t b and bronchitis.
it is through prevention that save the children can make the greatest impact on life.
but it's not just in africa where children are under threat from poverty and disease.
in the u k save the children has shown the link between a poor environment and poor health.
pennywell is a housing estate in sunderland where one in three adult males are unemployed.
health is a big issue here.
sunderland has the fourth highest number of smoking related deaths in the u k. low birth weights are more common.
well obviously unemployment is very high in the north east and er all the major health indicators are related directly to income.
so consequently er poor poor people live shorter lives and they suffer more chronic illnesses.
and this is also er true of the children.
twins rachel and rebecca, seen here at just over a year old, live on the estate with their mother carol.
when the twins learned to climb up the stairs, carol was terrified they might have an accident.
she probably could never have afforded a stairgate, so save the children lent her the equipment from its safety loan scheme.
the safety gates have made a big difference, since i've gotten them erm i've got peace of mind for the stairs and i can answer the phone and i haven't got to like keep trying to pull them downstairs and do do different things.
the family centre provides a place for people to get practical help and advice with their problems within walking distance.
save the children have developed in this area.
i mean before they came to the centre i think people felt save the children only did work in countries abroad.
makes us all realise what a good job save the children do in our country as well.
whether it's the u k or africa, simple and appropriate solutions with the cooperation of local communities can have the most dramatic effects in improving the lives of our children.
it is in these areas that save the children has consistently moved forward through developing long term strategies which are being added to and developed year after year.
your royal highness, ladies and gentlemen, good morning.
i am michael taylor and i'm the director of the united kingdom and european programmes department of the save the children fund.
what we've just seen conjures up for me some positive messages of direct impact upon children and young people's lives through our work in this country and overseas.
this is very much my experience of this organisation in the eight months i've worked here.
prior to coming to save the children through the media, i was more aware of your work, the emergency work all over the world.
as director of social services for the london borough of hillingdon i knew of the work with refugees in my role in hillingdon i was responsible for services for child arrivals at heathrow airport and i worked closely with save the children on the successful effort to get specific recognition for asylum seeking children in the asylum and immigration appeals act.
what i didn't know was of the ninety-plus pieces of work, both large and small, which save the children undertook in the united kingdom.
i believe an important issue for all of us in the run up to and throughout the seventy fifth birthday, is the need to increase the understanding and raise the profile and the value placed upon our work in the united kingdom.
i feel we will've achieved significant progress if we have turned, i didn't know you worked in the united kingdom, into it's good to know that the rights and needs of children are just as important to you in the united kingdom as they are overseas.
for me this has been a very exciting year in which to take on a directorship of the department.
this is both in respect of the run up to the seventy fifth birthday and also with the increase in responsibility to take on the remit for the development of our work in relation to the european community, central and eastern europe.
we have already have significant contact through the international save the children alliance partners in europe and we have representation on the european forum for child welfare.
on particular issues, such as work with refugee children and work with trav traveller and gypsy families, there is already established european collaboration.
it seems to me there is a massive potential to develop opportunities for practice sharing across europe and for practice and policy initiatives of the former u k department to be assessed and developed in the european framework.
specifically though the european programmes division with the department will lead the development of our programmes in eastern europe.
this will be done in partnership at all times with the in country non-gav non-governmental organisations, where such exist or where they can be developed, with governments and where appropriate with european and international agencies.
the massive changes brought about by the ending of the cold war and by the collapse of state mechanism in some eastern european countries opens up a significant opportunity to undertake work in the very near future.
save the children fund has been involved already directly in partnership and with other international save the children members in providing direct and emergency aid to former yugoslavia.
however i think it's important to stress that right from the early days of the conflict we had determined not to be involved in providing large scale emergency relief.
this was primarily due to a concern that given commitments elsewhere, we did not have the logistical support and any activity in former yugoslavia would mean a major diversion from a already established programmes overseas.
however this summer a temporary programme coordinator has visited the region and a short term programme of material support to children's homes has been provided and we are now working to put other facilities in s to institutions in serbia and are hoping that through the restructuring of children's services, when the conflict is over and we believe obviously that may be some off, that we can tri can contribute to meeting the longer term needs of children in that war torn zone.
in slovenia a psychiatrist has been advising staff in refugee camps as to how to respond to the needs of traumatised children.
in croatia we are supporting an agency which provides direct assistance to refugee families and to young people.
this work in former yugoslavia will become an established part of our european programme.
in romania we are planning to work with romanian save the children and to help the romanian government in its juvenile justice system which is sadly in need of major development and change.
we're also engaged with the european community in discussion over a bid for funding to develop social work, child protection and alternatives to institutional care and to other child care systems within romania.
this work again will be undertaken in partnership with non-governmental child care organisations in that country.
through g contacts already established throughout the u k department, links have been d=established and developed with work in poland,russia and albania and we're working to assess the policy, practice development or programme contribution we might make in those european countries.
i believe our credibility and our strength in these new initiatives in europe flow from our status as an international development agency and from our high quality work in projects in the united kingdom.
i'd now like you to hear directly from a young person for whom access to one of our projects in the united kingdom has made major changes in her life.
to caroline home is a room for her possessions, abandoned by her mum and dad as a baby, she spent her life moving from one set of parents to another.
when you haven't got no one, you have to, sort of like find a way of doing it for yourself and it's much harder.
today caroline lives alone in a room in oxford.
without family guidance she sometimes finds it hard to manage, especially money.
while some of her friends have taken drugs, caroline's been in trouble with the police for stealing from shops.
in the beginning i did it to look good, cos i wanted the money, towards the end it was doing it to live, it was literally doing it to live.
i hated doing it.
i used to go into a shop and i'd shake and i'd know that i was doing wrong and i'd be really scared and i'd just knew i don't want to go to prison so i decide to stop it.
now when she needs a hand, caroline turns to life chance.
a partnership between save the children, social and youth services it helps youngsters help themselves by turning moans into action.
really we're trying to give young people a voice, put them in the driving seat.
gradually it sort of like brings people out of themselves and do you know what i mean, they learn to do things.
whilst as a worker i might see the process, to me very important, i think there's a lot of concrete outcomes for young people feel we have achieved this, we did this for ourselves, it's ours, we own it.
you've gone and achieved something, you feel like you've done something good, you feel like you're somebody.
this is when i was pregnant went to put my name down on the housing list and they said to me sorry you can't we've got too many people on there already.
life chance workers hope this can homeless teenagers who will be the next to benefit from the project.
building up trust and friendship takes time but for hundreds makes life chance a lifeline.
i think that caroline's experience as portrayed in that video is not unusual.
many children and young people get caught up in crime.
either through the necessity to obtain items which they believe are essential or through a desire to be one of the gang and valued by their peers.
interestingly caroline expressed both those needs at different times during that presentation.
children who are caught up in crime are getting a lot of media attention lately.
many people say that the solution is to take the young person who has committed a crime out of their community and lock them away, that will achieve a solution.
save the children fund's years of experience shows it doesn't work and indeed that form of incarceration can lead to some of the tragic circumstances of self image, damage and even death which have occurred in penal institutions and been reported recently.
we've also we believe got concrete evidence to show that community based alternatives do work.
at scone park in the north east of england we offer classes in motorbike maintenance and land conservation to young people.
they build on young people's skills and confidence so they feel that they have something to offer to the world and to their own community.
latest figures show an overall twenty seven per cent decrease in crimes reported in that area since the project began.
because of our experience at scone park and in many other projects in the twelve years we have been working with young offenders, we, along with the other children's charities, oppose the government's proposals on persistent young offenders.
kenneth clarke, when home secretary, announced the establishment of secure training centres where young people aged up to fifteen years could be sentenced for a period of up to two years.
we took the view that this was a misplaced use, both of the finances required as it would divert money away from community provision, but also that there were no success criteria guaranteed other than removal from community.
the children engaged in crime often come from families where there is high unemployment already and where the prospects of employment are actually denied school leavers.
they're children and young people with a very poor self image and where their investment in the education system has probably been partial to say the least.
there is little out of school provision and where the youth service is actually suffering savage cuts in terms of local government finance.
projects such as scone park have shown that there can be alternative provision and that you can meet the needs of children and young people and respond to those in their own community and develop the investment in that community.
in taking this view we are not denying that the loss of liberty may actually be necessary in a few extreme cases and this should only be where the child presents a significant danger to him or herself or where there is a significant risk of major further offending and severe damage to community.
these incidences are very rare and actually disposals through the courts do exist using the care facilities which are already available to the local authorities and the secure accommodation.
we know that custody does not stop young people committing crimes when their sentence is over.
seventy five per cent of young people released from custody re-offend within two years.
we believe and we know that re-offending rates after secure regimes are much higher than after community based schemes and the well being and safety of children we believe can be compromised by incarceration in secure provision.
because of that view and because of the principals which we as an organisation espouse we chose to challenge the position that the home secretary had adopted and raised, we believe, the debate in the media and in the parliamentary setting of what should be provided to meet the er needs of young people.
we've demonstrated the direct link between investing in community support and reduced crime levels and we believe that programme, valued as it is in local communities, has a message larger and wider for policy makers in the united kingdom.
we recently had a similar experience in terms of a media debate and entering into it, in our work with lone parents.
reading some sections of the media recently, children of lone parents are talked about as as if they're nothing but a drain on state resources.
as an organisation we believe that children in these circumstances may well need support but they're also a real resource to our society, an investment in children's welfare and children's education is a sound investment in the country's future.
recently government ministers and the media have tended to concentrate on the small minority of very young women who have had babies and who live on their own.
in fact, according to government statistics, only two per cent of lone parents are aged under twenty.
the majority of lone parents are older, divorced, separated or widowed women.
in reading the media recently one would believe that those figures were actually reversed.
housing policy in this country has traditionally given priority to children's needs and we would find it very worrying if that priority were eroded in any way by the introductions of policies aiming to discriminate against children in one setting i.e. children of lone parent families.
a recent report by the institute of housing managers confirmed that no specific priority is given in the analysis of housing need an and the awarding of points by which housing is allocated.
but again the suggestion through the media would be that in order to gain top priority you need to be a young single parent with at least one child.
we consider that punitive policies such as cutting benefit payments or not providing adequate housing for lone parents or their children, would immediately damage the health and well being of children and we consider that that in itself is contrary to the u n convention on the rights of the child.
we will continue to encourage government to take positive steps to improve the situation of families in poverty, like providing better child care and better support services to families and maintaining and improving benefits at a level which actually ensure economic stability and guaranteeing that housing, safe and proper housing, is available for all children in our society.
our experience at our projects demonstrates that given the opportunity, lone parents, like any parents, want to improve the situation of their children by by working and by not being dependent upon benefits.
at the pattmore project in london and the rosemount project in glasgow for example, mothers are provided with adequate child care and it enables them to attend courses and gain skills and qualifications that give them a better chance in the job market.
the very positive self image, the change during the first week, that single parents experience those courses is absolutely striking.
we believe that the children of all lone parents can best be helped by po policies which support their commitment to their family and their children and pathways out of poverty should be built which ensure that all families living in poverty have the chance to change their situation.
like your chairman, i am a newcomer to the fund and my induction experience has not been limited to the division offices in the united kingdom or visiting projects in the united kingdom.
in july of this year, along with the overseas director mike arrinson, i spent seven days in bangladesh.
we visited both city and rural programmes and were struck by the amazing capacity of the people to overcome adversity, both natural disasters and the extremes of poverty.
the desire in all the work which we saw there was to extend to develop and to move ahead with new ideas to meet needs.
the video which follows now portrays some of our work in bangladesh and i'll provide the commentary upon it.
khulna is a large industrial city in south western bangladesh.
it attracts many migrant families from the surrounding rural areas and as such is similar to many of the cities in bangladesh.
people flood to the city seeking employment, seeking security and actually trying to find a means of sustaining family life.
many seek employment in matchbox manufacture, in working with textiles in stone breaking,in ship building, metal working and in paper manufacture.
the slums people live in have open sewers, amazingly crowded housing, poor sanitation and ineffective drainage.
eight hundred to a thousand people will live in a dense area and are subject to the vagaries of government and landlords.
slums are bulldozed overnight on occasions to make way for new developments.
these people live amongst the wealthier residential areas in all of the cities of bangladesh.
the seasonal rains bring a deterioration in the living conditions and without effective drainage sewage overflows into the homes.
children are more prone to disease.
these were the conditions in the slums which we visited in dacca.
amidst these circumstances, save the children fund clinics are providing primary healthcare programme for slum mothers and young children.
local clinic staff are appointed from the community itself and they provide immunisation, family planning, a dispensary, ante-natal and post natal services.
more importantly they provide training for local volunteers and they give health education advice.
this has led to a fall in the emergency attendances with almost a hundred per cent registration rates from local slum families.
what's more these families are paying for the clinic service that they have come to appreciate.
the clinic staff make weekly visits to every slum home providing effective follow up to clinic visits, whilst encouraging good health practices at home too.
there is a massive investment in health education and in improving diet.
the clinic has acted as a strong focus for slum living mothers to campaign for improved conditions in their surroundings.
for example making arrangements to cover up open latrines.
as a collective, people are contributing financially to the installation of new tube wells.
the cleaner water supply has dram dramatic effects on the children's health.
every clinic conducts regular surveys to monitor the effects of the programme, proving that infant mortality rates have dropped, whilst scabies and bronchitis have decreased too.
mike and i saw a a very young child being washed at a tube well, those guiding us round the site were very impressed by this, the child was rather perplexed and surprised as normally it was taken down to the river to be washed.
women are now participating in credit saving schemes organised through save the children.
in groups of five they each save weekly after which one of their number can take a loan and invest in an income generating project.
each group opens their own joint bank account,manages their own money,does some basic budget planning and learns to fill out the forms and paperwork necessary to record all the transactions and keep track of the state of the fund and their management of it.
we saw numerous examples where people bought equipment.
for example amina has bought a sewing machine.
this will give her financial independence and a steady income.
she has repaid the debt and now has sufficient money on which to live.
rebaya and her daughter purchased the materials necessary to men to make incense sticks and again have achieved a degree of financial independence which six months before could not have been expected.
some people use the money to buy fishing nets.
our integrated health programme has provided a catalyst for slum families to have a hand in controlling their environment and working together to benefit each other.
free of money lenders and learning to save and contribute financially to their own programme is an important step towards long term self sustainability.
thank you.
thank you very much indeed mike for that excellent presentation.
and now i would like to ask her royal highness to come to the platform and address us.
thank you very much ma'am.
chairman, ladies and gentlemen.
well i'm delighted to see so many of you have taken the trouble to come and join us today for yet another annual public meeting and in welcoming you can i give a particular welcome to our new chairman mike betts, thank him very much indeed for joining us.
he has an excellent background in support,not involved in in the running but continuous interest and support and for him to take on this challenge shows a particular kind of commitment to the work of the save the children fund and we're very grateful to him for taking it on and i sincerely hope that he will enjoy the experience, especially after meeting all of you today.
mike thank you for joining us.
today is an important occasion for the fund.
it always is er a moment to reflect, to look forward to renew acquaintances, to recharge the batteries, to get new ideas and that's quite right and this public meeting marks the eve of a particularly important year for all of us at the save the children fund.
our seventy fifth birthday year.
i hope it will be a birthday year in in every way, er but it's not just a good excuse to have a party there is very serious intent behind this birthday.
when eglantine jebb launched the save the children fund in may nineteen nineteen, one of her aims was for the fund to work for its own extinction.
seventy five years on that day seems more distant than ever.
eglantine also said that children are always the first to suffer and that is certainly as true today as it was then which means that the save the children fund's work is needed now as much as it was then.
b but the funds to support this work are harder to come by and you don't need me to tell you that.
yet the need is such that our spending at home and overseas has doubled in the last two years and still vital pieces of work in the u k and overseas await funding.
the sad reality is that nearly seventy years after eglantine jebb drafted the world's first charter of children's rights, the charter which became the foundation for the nineteen eighty nine u n convention.
children's rights to health, to a good education, to safety, to a secure childhood are still threatened.
in short children across, across the globe are facing pressures and conditions that are no longer considered acceptable to an international community that sees so much suffering around the world.
they want to do something.
i believe with our experience that the save the children fund can do something positive that will last.
we urgently need funds to be able to respond effectively and to meet the increased demands being made on us as well as to maintain our existing work.
that's why save the children is marking this seventy fifth birthday year with the biggest and most important fund raising appeal in the organisation's history.
our target is to raise, in cash and in pledges, an additional twenty five million pounds over and above our normal fundraising.
but before i talk in more detail about how we hope to raise this money let me spend a little time explaining why i feel that this appeal is so vital to children everywhere.
i need hardly remind you of the many emergencies that save the children has responded to in recent years.
the most recent was for somalia, and you responded magnificently, helping to raise over five million pounds for relief work.
but as you know the needs of the world's children go far beyond the immediate emergencies like those in somalia or liberia.
the need for sustainable health, education and welfare services is as acute as ever.
children in the united kingdom face different sorts of problems but they too are under threat.
parents need help with their own lives so that their children don't suffer from the unemployment and homelessness that contribute to ill health and an unsafe living environment that too many children have to live with today.
it is only by establishing and maintaining development programmes and by working in conjunction with families, with communities and with governments that we can begin to achieve lasting improvements which tackle the root causes of the poverty and inequality that threaten so many children.
investing in human resources is a fundamental part of that process too.
it helps to promote the political stability and economic growth that is an essential backdrop to any kind of lasting change.
but as you know the save the children is just one development organisation and with limited resources, so a major part of our task is to use our influence and authority to press for change on a wider scale by keeping the issues of poverty and inequality and of children firmly on the international agenda.
ladakh in north west india, very distant, remote, mountainous, a harsh environment for any child to grow up in.
most villages are perched over ten thousand feet up in the himalayas.
many can be reached only by walking, for several days along precarious footpaths and they may be cut off half the year by snow.
in winter, the temperature can drop to minus forty degrees centigrade.
ladakhis live from farming and livestock rearing and believe me they know how to do this.
they know how to cope and they have very sophisticated forms of irrigation.
but although they are largely self sufficient, needless to say livelihoods in these sort of conditions and communities are on a knife edge.
the growing season is short and the tiny fields are extremely difficult to plough.
for health and welfare most villages depend on village healers.
but unless this is combined with techniques like vaccination and knowledge of oral rehydration, diseases like measles and diarrhoea are child killers.
to net to get an education beyond primary level, children have to leave their village primary schools because the terms coincide with the peak agricultural seasons.
save the children d went into ladakh fifteen years ago to provide emergency feeding for malnourished children.
today that emergency programme has evolved into a broad based community programme, focusing on health, education and economic status and training of teachers and health workers.
to give ladakh's children a better start in life means supporting services that work in harmony with local structures and rhythms.
now there is primary health care for all mothers and children however remote their community.
families have become involved in income generating schemes and children have better access to education and in all these areas the villagers, particularly women, work closely with staff to play an active part in the development of their own community and the securing of their children's future.
now a glasgow inner city area migh may seem light years away from all this but in many ways the need is just as acute.
and they are still a community under pressure.
royston in glasgow, where unemployment is high, the housing is high and poor and there are few safe areas and precious little childcare provision.
many of the residents are single parents who often feel isolated and trapped and unable to improve their situation.
save the children's rosemount project which i visited in june is working with parents and children, providing quality child care with individual attention for each child and offering courses in computing and child care for women to improve their skills and equally important, their confidence.
in other words giving people the raw materials to improve their lives and safeguard their children's future.
both of these interventions are successes in their own right.
they apply to different communities, they have responded to different communities' needs but they also contribute to a ripple effect of achievement at national and international levels which will ultimately benefit the lives of many more children.
they are setting standards of good practice that we in the save the children fund can then help to spread.
these children the world over need your continued help and that is what this birthday appeal is all about.
with seventy five years of working with children under our belt and with our many achievements on behalf of children with pioneering schemes, we have the experience and the expertise to achieve real and lasting change.
so where do we start with the mammoth task of raising an additional twenty five million pounds?
i have little doubt that nineteen ninety four, ninety five will be a challenge, especially in today's economic climate.
this is going to be a year when we will all have to go that extra mile for children.
but i'm afraid your reputation precedes you, you are renowned for rising to challenges like these and i feel sure that you can build on your previous successes and that together we can and probably will, do it.
i will be launching the birthday year in january when i hope that among other things, we might succeed in gaining recognition for eglantine jebb and our many achievements for children and i was delighted to be asked to chair the birthday advisory group and to be closely involved with activities during nineteen ninety four.
one of the activities we have great hopes for is our private appeal which will run alongside our public fundraising.
this is a first for the save the children and we will be approaching wealthy individuals, foundations and trusts for donations towards our work.
that will not be easy because most of them are heavily involved in funding of all sorts of other organisations and they have their own interests.
we will have to be very sure that we know what we're talking about when we meet them to persuade them that we need their funds more and we can make better use of them and we hope to raise around half of that twenty five million pounds from them.
i'd like to take this opportunity to thank sir david scholey, the chairman of s g warburg for chairing the private appeal.
sir david is a long term supporter of save the children and has sat for many years on the industry and commerce group.
and i'd also like to extend my thanks to his very able committee.
our corporate members are ready but they very much need your help.
we are relying on you and all the other volunteers around the u k in your contacts with the public to help make this year a success.
you are the public face of the save the children fund.
the people who have carried the fund raising banner throughout the years.
the people at the fund raising coal face who have the skills and the expertise to ensure that our seventy fifth birthday year goes down in save the children's fund raising history.
this year though we want to attract new supporters and search out people who haven't traditionally supported save the children as well as building on the commitment of our existing supporters.
you are all familiar with our loyal supporters, but what about those people on the fringes who may have given a donation or done something for save the children in the past, but never really followed it up and there are the people who are interested who think, it's a charity i feel i ought to support.
let's see if we can move them on this year so that they start to think it's a charity i know i really want to support.
what better time than a birthday year to persuade all these people to become active and long term supporters of the save the children.
plans are well underway for next year.
i know that many of you have already come up with some interesting ideas on seventy fifth theme.
many branches have already scheduled a range of exciting events based on the birthday in addition to the events that will be happening nationwide.
like the thousands of birthday parties that we hope will take place on may the nineteenth.
there will be more on all these happenings later today.
other fund raising plans are well advanced too.
i'm delighted that our old friends at tesco, a founder corporate member of save the children, are once again lending their generous support.
in nineteen ninety four they are making us their charity of the year and offering to work with us across the u k to help raise an extra million.
i would also like to thank another of our corporate members, cadbury limited.
over the past eighteen months cadbury and save the children have worked very successfully together, staging three strollathons sponsoring nationwide pantomimes and running a promotion on chocolate bars.
i think that was probably the most popular.
as our seventy fifth birthday approaches, cadbury hopes to stage more events and promotions to help us meet our seventy five million t pound target and meet our commitment to the world's children.
all in all it promises to be an exciting enjoyable and hard working year for save the children and all its supporters.
it is going to be hard work.
nobody would pretend that raising an additional twenty five million pounds is going to be easy but time and again you have risen to the challenge.
we must make very sure we know what we're doing it for.
it will help to remind ourselves of the challenge that eglantine jebb took up.
her clear sighted approach to bring long lasting help to mothers and children, so that children could benefit, wherever they were whatever their country, their colour, their situation -urban or rural, their culture, their religion, their society in the sense of its development and their expectations and their infrastructure.
she was frustrated by short term palliatives.
when knowledge of basic principles might cure for future generations many diseases and even hunger and that education might set solid foundations for extending and repeating that knowledge, as well as the economic viability of the community and a sense of responsibility.
a sense of responsibility in the children that we help, that they all grow up to be responsible adults.
in seventy five years the fund has remained true to her principles and yet it is as pioneering as she ever was.
i hope she would be pleased by our efforts, in spite of the fact that we are still here and needed.
i know she would be proud of you, the fund raisers, who make it possible.
as you set about making your plans for next year let me leave you with this thought from eglantine jebb if children of any country are physically or morally abandoned the whole world loses by it and the whole world gains if children grow up healthy, capable and ready to work for the good of their neighbours.
good luck.
thank you very much indeed for that superb key note address.
and now let us proceed with the next business of the day, it gives me great pleasure your royal highness to er invite you to present several save the children awards this morning.
these awards are given in recognition of outstanding services to children.
five people who've been nominated for awards are not available to receive them from her royal highness.
though absent they are ray , lee , kim , cho and marjorie .
congratulations to them all, they'll be receiving their awards in due course.
we now 
now for those who are present i will call out each name and if each one can come forward and receive the award from her royal highness.
joe 
lady sarah 
esther 
josephine anne 
dora 
jill 
thank you award winners and thank you all for your contribution to save the children fund.
now i have some er parish notices for you all.
now there are imbit information stands on level five where several catering points are available for lunch and er members of the audience can also attend four fringe meetings.
these meetings are making the most of the seventy fifth in shops, involving young people in singing for the seventy fifth, branches sharing fund raising ideas for the seventy fifth and small world theatre extracts from moving, a play on the theme of refugees.
now these are taking place between one and two this afternoon.
i should say that there are only seventy five seats available for each fringe meeting so if you want to go hurry on and get your tickets which will be issued at level three information desk on a first come, first served basis.
a colour coded system will be in operation to help you find your way around those fringe meetings.
now i just want to end this morning session by reminding you to be in your seats by two twenty.
we have a speaker er patricia routledge in her guise as mrs bucket or mrs bouquet she would not be very pleased if you were late.
for one of her candle-lit after-lunch speeches.
thank you very much for this morning, we'll see you this afternoon.
interesting as well as a er edible lunch er we're very pleased now to start away the afternoon session and i'm particularly pleased to be able to introduce patricia routledge, she's an actress with so many parts in so many media that i'm not going to make any further introduction, but merely to ask her to come up and speak to us.
when she has finished sally barker, branches advisory committee chairman, will make her presentation.
thank you very much.
your royal highness, ladies and gentlemen.
it is a particular privilege for me to be here today and part of me feels not totally qualified.
i have over the years sent my postal order regularly and it wasn't until two years ago that i became more actively involved in the work of save the children fund raising.
i was invited to give an entertainment at the bristol old vic theatre, the wonderful old theatre royal, the oldest extant theatre still being used in the country and one of the oldest in the world, a very beautiful place erm and i was asked if i would do an entertainment that i have called come for the ride which i was persuaded to concoct by my home town of birkenhead in the north west of england.
i did it there originally and then did it at festivals all over the country.
i have a particular affection for bristol and the west country, i'd like you know that, those of you who've come all the way to london from the west and i so i was very happy to have this evening and be able with er an accompanist and musical director, to provide entertainment that would raise money.
i was told early on that it was possible that your royal highness would be able to be there and indeed you were and it gave us all one of the most unforgettable nights.
i remember after the show you spoke for twelve minutes without a note and not only that but you came round afterwards and spent eight or ten minutes with us, the artists, which absolutely made our evening.
it seems to me that that attention to the moment is significant of the great work that you do for this particular charity.
now i recently have accumulated unto myself, a notoriety that i didn't originally seek.
and certainly didn't expect but everywhere i go it comes at me.
it gives me great pleasure because people are extremely kind and extremely generous.
we're very obsessed with things called viewing figures in television and i worked out quite simply that if everybody among the eleven million people who are supposed to view keeping up appearances every sunday, popped a penny into a money box for save the children fund one sunday night, that would raise a hundred and ten thousand pounds within an hour, now why don't we get going and encourage people to do that.
multiply that by seven and it's seven hundred and seventy thousand pounds.
what we are able to do in my job is to do what i was happy to do which is to give a performance in aid of a charity, one soon learns how to expend one's energy and in which direction to focus it.
earlier this year, on april the twenty second,her royal highness, the princess royal, entertained various representatives from the world of entertainment and sport and journalism at buckingham palace.
we had the most wonderful evening, it began with a film show, an extremely well er composed film to do with the work that is being done, the variety of work that is being done in the variety of places.
various reports a plea for support a plea for interest particularly for the seventy fifth anniversary year next year and after that we had the most lovely party.
i have a list here of people in my particular part of the profession who have pledged themselves to assist with the great drive forward for the seventy fifth anniversary.
a number of celebrities were appearing in the cadbury's sponsored pantomimes around the country and supporting the save the children fund raising activities.
these include lesley joseph, jeff capes, bobby davro, windsor davies, john nettles and gloria hunniford and ian botham.
pam ferris from the darling buds of may is actively supporting the fund and will help with publiscation and er fund raising, publicising and fund raising in the birthday year.
sandi toksvig, the comedy actress, has been advising on the seventy fifth birthday plans with television, book and consumer magazine support, she'll be visiting zimbabwe in october with a b b c television crew to film a documentary and will be visiting and filming save the children fund projects while she's there.
lulu ulrika johnson, tessa sanderson, debby mcgee and linda bellingham all lent their support to this year's cadbury's strollathon and we look forward to their continued support in our birthday year.
next year i am going to be very active in the theatre and i've already this morning, sown the seed er for possibly er giving a particular performance er of one of the plays in this particular season i'm going to do er for save the children fund and i've said
i've said move fast, get on with it.
william wordsworth nearly two hundred years ago, wrote this my heart leaps up when i behold a rainbow in the sky.
so it was when my life began so it is now that i am a man.
so be it when i shall grow old or let me die.
the child is father of the man.
and that is what it seems to me is the purpose of all our support for this fund.
i've been particularly impressed with the officials and executives and workers that i've met.
i've been particularly impressed today to learn how people come here every year, particularly for this meeting and of all the various ways in which money can be raised.
the money is there, we know this.
i always say that we all spend our money on what we really want to spend it on and put a bit by for what we really desire to achieve.
it is wonderful all the work that you do.
and i applaud and admire it.
i am here partly because i was fortunate enough to have the happiest and healthiest of childhoods and i see it as a very happy obligation to try to do my best to ensure that all over the world it is possible for other children to enjoy something of what i had.
god bless you all and i hope to be walking alongside you during the seventy fifth year anniversary efforts.
in sri lanka thousand of families have moved from the countryside to the capital colombo in search of a better life.
instead they find nowhere to live, nothing to eat and poor health and education.
save the children is helping families to rebuild the ghettos, to make a better life for themselves and the next generation.
in the sudan cities are surrounded by huge camps filled with victims of a five year long civil war.
it's a poor part of africa but most of its problems are man made.
fighting has cut off supplies to the refugees.
save the children works with organisations like the red cross to restore that life line.
poor children in jamaica often fall prey to drugs dealers who offer them clothes and shoes in return for carrying drugs.
save the children helps youngsters living and working on the streets, it runs schools where the poorest can get hot meals and lessons.
just one more example of how save the children does just that all round the world.
yes.
those are some of the reasons why i and many others support save the children and thank you patricia routledge for talking to us today, it was a pleasure listening to you.
hello everyone.
once again it is lovely to see you all.
well this is it, next year is our seventy fifth birthday so today is one of our most important meetings we will ever have.
it'll be a very challenging year for volunteers, i'm sure you'll all agree.
in the past year i've been invited by many of you to meet branch members and to make shop visits all over the united kingdom.
it's been a privilege to have done this and i'm overwhelmed by the enthusiasm i've encountered.
you, save the children fund volunteers, are determined not to let the recession beat you.
the message i've given to london is that volunteers are in very good heart and it doesn't stop there.
the really good thing is that there are a huge variety of plans for our big year.
more of that later.
but what about the last twelve months.
what stories do our figures tell us?
well while we were all delighted about the tremendous increase in income two years ago we were also a little concerned about how we should hold on to it, but we have.
last year branch income was on target at seven point eight million pounds, a massive increase on the plateau of five to five and half million pounds we were on before skip lunch.
congratulations to you all.
and the shops, well there are now one hundred and fifty nine shops.
together they have raised five point seven million pounds last year, a wonderful result and thank you all.
i particularly want to highlight the shop cash donations.
we've introduced a new donations box and some shops have special donations secretaries and many helpers encourage donations too.
what a success story.
shop cash donations have gone up from five hundred and sixty three thousand to six hundred and twenty nine thousand, a marvellous increase.
hello sir.
how you doing?
not so good.
what have you been up to then?
oh i think my health's breaking up.
it's my ears and er my back.
i w i was in and seeing the doctor 
mhm.
and he's given me pills and that for it, but it's my ears .
this is one that's been, i've had appointment and for three times i'd had to cancel it .
buzzing in ears when i go to bed at night.
mhm.
i'm not getting to sleep.
it's taking me oh quite a while to get to sleep and, and i'm not hearing too good.
right.
let's have a look in and see if your brains are expanding or what's happening in here.
no wonder you're not hearing so good.
no wonder you're getting a buzzing in your ears there's a big lump of concrete in there.
is there?
let's have another look at this.
oh my.
for goodness sake.
there's a wee man with a pick and shovel in 
oh aye.
it's solid.
is it?
absolutely solid.
i've been putting drops in it too
aye.
quite regular.
aye.
i'll, i'll need to give you some special stuff to loosen that.
aye.
because that's 
because it's 
right?
it's caught in the hairs
mhm.
in the inside here and if we try and syringe it out it'll pull hairs out 
aha.
and irritate the skin.
aye.
i'll give you some special stuff to get rid of that.
cos i've been trying and trying for ages 
to get that.
no.
it's the, it's absolutely solid.
the, the drops are not not doing anything.
seeing doctor the other week.
my back absolutely killing me.
and i'm falling asleep every time i sit down.
we'll need to do something about that.
that's not right.
between that and my back and my knees it's 
.
two drops of this
aha.
in the morning.
a wee bit of cotton wool just on the outside.
same on the other side.
same at bedtime before you got to bed.
aha.
couple drops and 
mhm.
cotton wool.
and that'll 
gradually loosen that up.
come back down in about a fortnight
aha.
and we'll just a wee gentle syringe and it'll all come away.
smashing.
no problem at 
right.
all.
now then.
thirty two
grove.
grove .
now is your insurance line due in about a fortnight ?
aye.
aye.
right.
here we are then and they'll have to get that sorted for .
great.
thanks.
okay.
right.
cheerio now.
cheerio.
good evening ladies and gentleman.
good evening, bert.
thanks for coming along tonight as you see we have our a g m tonight and er hope er to see a lot more faces here tonight 
his car broke down.
oh apologies from brian his car broke down.
oh well .
jack should be here.
er brian w val anybody else?
i think people shy off the a g m,because they're frightened of getting jobs on the committee.
right then could we have the minutes from the previous a g m, please.
the minutes of the annual general meeting held at labour club on monday the seventh of december nineteen ninety two.
there were thirteen members present,in the chair apology er apologies from joe and emily and robert who were injured in a car crash on the way here.
minutes of the a g m on the second of december nineteen ninety one were read proposed jack and seconded that they be accepted.
all in favour there were none against and no abstentions.
matters arising there were no matters arising unusually.
secretary's report the secretary thanked joan and reg for the club during the year especially for donating items for the open show for the and christmas social.
it was a very hard job holding everything together and it required tremendous dedication from everyone concerned.
difficulties had arisen over the globe hotel in february last year and we have been forced to move yet again.
we were once more experiencing difficulties hopefully they would all be out before too long.
we hadn't managed to get any speakers this year but had all enjoyed the previous meeting in oc in october.
there had been a trip to yorkshire in april and another to the british aquarist festival in november, both of which had been enjoyed by all.
this concluded the secretary's report.
brian proposed wilf seconded that the be, the, seconded that the report be accepted all in favour, there were none against and no abstentions.
show secretary's report in the show secretary's absence due to the accident on route tonight the chairman said mrs had done a fantastic job over the year and he wished to record his thanks to her.
the fish on the bench have increased over the year and he asked everyone to bring out just one fish every meeting.
the secretary would phone to find out if they were alright after the accident and if nec necessary contact the chairman.
treasurer's report the balance sheets were circulated to all and the treasurer went through each item of expenditure, explaining in detail.
there was a healthy balance for nineteen ninety three and this was mainly due to members supporting raffles and the fact that we have not put the show stand off at the british aquarist festival for a couple of years.
this had built up the present balance to what it now was.
mr proposed seconded that the report be accepted.
all in favour none against and no abstentions.
this concluded the reports.
there was no librarian's report due to mr being absent.
the chairman thanked all those who had worked hard and tirelessly over the last year for the benefit of the club and its members.
election of the committee.
now i don't propose to go through erm the proposers and seconders, i shall just go through the nominees er and there was no opposition.
so er presumably er you understand that it was, they were all elected.
the chairman peter vice chairman, bill secretary, h treasurer a b show secretary, e assistant show secretary, r librarian, jane committee j m w and j .
all these members were elected unanimously and unopposed.
now, any other business.
we were asked to try to arrange an inter-club table show with hulton aquarist society.
the secretary would approach the hulton secretary.
the treasurer asked if we could make an early start to the meetings eight p m prompt.
it looked very bad when we advertised an eight p m start and if 
if you members came along there was only two or three people here at eight p m.
this concluded the business of the a g m and the chairman closed the, the meeting at ten ten ten past ten.
other club business social evening on monday the twenty first of december mr would donate egg and cress sandwiches b w would donate cheese cheese and onion wilf would donate boiled ham.
secretary would arrange chicken pieces pork pies sausage rolls, sausages on sticks cheese and onion and cheese and pineapple on sticks and would also donate mince pies.
jack may be able to donate some scones we would have bingo a knock-out competition and the whisky roll plus a raffle.
prizes required please.
there was no further business the chairman closed the meeting at ten forty p m.
any matters arising from those minutes?
no matters arising?
can we have a proposer and seconder, please?
yes is there a proposer?
and a seconder?
seconded.
i haven't got a you don't give me one!
i'll give you er give you an extra cup of tea at supper time.
thank you.
oh hang on a minute, the secretary can go first.
oh matters arising.
there's none arising.
no correct.
no matters arising.
no.
propose second 
yeah but joe joe proposed
yeah we've done that bit we've done that bit 
and brian seconded 
we've done that bit
now we're on to matters arising.
yeah minutes of the previous a g m proposed and seconded, right?
matters arising proposed and seconded that they be accepted recommendations 
yeah no no, because there was no matters arising.
just put that on so you can proposing and seconding .
confusing, isn't it?
no, not really!
right 
secretary's report 
can we have the secretary's report.
yeah.
erm secretary's report, it's much the same as last year er, we had two trips this year two coach trips one to the yorkshire aquarist festival in ap was it april?
i think it was april, wasn't it?
and one to the british aquarist festival in october.
they were both enjoyable erm i can't really say which i enjoyed the most er, i thought they were both very good and of course good value for the money because they don't charge very much for the fares well i don't think they do.
erm then we had the three-way inter-club table show with hulton and skelmersdale and st helens erm the first one was st helens and that was the only wasn't it, about april and we won that we, we it was a whitewash really, wasn't it?
erm then we had one at sk hulton in july and we won that er, not quite as much of a whitewash was it?
nevertheless we won handsomely.
and the third one was at skelm 
which was not organized because we don't know anyone 
which was we don't know who won we don't know what the score was but we think that but we're, we're assuming that that's because they bring out all their secret showmen who don't sh travel they have a little core, hard core of that don't travel but they, they bring them out 
they bring them out at their own table shows and, and it's 
appropriate that we should that much 
well that appears to be so .
i never cared for results never cared for results at all.
robert is 
we never saw a fish either.
no.
i don't think erm on reflection, i don't think that a three-way table show is a good thing.
i would prefer to see an inter-club with skelm and an inter-club with hulton i think they get too big, two clubs is too difficult to organize when there's three cos you, you're getting it's not , it's the 
it's not that the show secretary was er at club had not done his job.
at skelmersdale?
yeah.
i mean he's in the auction when he should be with them writing the labels.
yeah.
yes i mean it doesn't go down well and i'll say the things you have to do when you when you're helping to run a club, you have to commit yourself to the club and you have to do the jobs that th presented by the club.
i mean i date mine, er well i don't date 'em i i sign the cards at home and do all that at home before i go 
that's right.
and then when i come here i've just got to date what fish is on the bench.
that's right.
and it cuts down the work then.
the way he's doing this is there's they can go.
well that's no use is it?
that's no use.
i know they were still judging after midnight and that's no good really no good at all on a working week.
when we got there we had to species of fish and then take it out and 
yeah yeah.
it's a good idea it's a good idea in principle but, but it's not a workable proposition when you've over a hundred fish and there's evening 
yes.
she hasn't got enough time 
one of the didn't come till nearly quarter past ten.
yeah yeah.
i think it er, on reflection i think er i would discourage members from having a three-way table show i like the, the one-off you know, one against one because it works better 
yeah.
i think it works better.
yeah.
yes of course yeah, but the, you know, we, we have to, i have to make a report and i have to recommend so i'm recommending that we forget about the three-way stuff.
er, we had a breeders' meeting in october which was i enjoy them very much, i enjoy the the talk because it's the first chance i get during the year when i can sit down and listen and i don't have to worry about them generally, in another club, i don't have to worry about minutes or anything, i just sit and listen and it's great it, i really enjoy that.
meetings once again i have to say the old, old chestnut please can we start at eight o' clock er we're getting new members who get a bit discouraged when we have a late start.
i know it isn't easy but erm i think we should you know, try and we advertise starting at eight o'clock and very often there's only alan and i here at eight.
so if we could all try our best to get here at eight o' clock.
particularly when we're trying to get juveniles into the club i mean they want to go at ten possibly you owe them not starting till 
yeah yeah.
it's very difficult to 
nine there's nothing, you know they'll get discouraged.
so you john now jonathan he's only fifteen, i know he looks in his twenties, but he's only fifteen and he's done a lot of homework so it makes him late and it makes him uncomfortable and he's fidgety because he knows he's got to disturb us when he goes out, he doesn't doesn't enjoy disturbing us, so i have to make that clear to you.
erm again i er the old story, we can't get speakers on a monday and better luck in last year this year, sorry er i was able to get danny but there again he came very expensive erm but we brought, we had to bring him from lancaster so er, you can't expect him to come for nothing.
so erm and another thing i was going to suggest erm i need help really erm for the meetings, i need somebody who will help, a social secretary say somebody who will help with the raffles and somebody who will organize meetings, what's going on at meetings because it's getting, the job is getting most difficult and i work part-time and it's, it's, i'm not getting any younger and i'm finding it a struggle to try and get everything fixed, the raffles and the what's going on and everything organized, so if you, if you if you could see the way clear, perhaps we could create a social secretary or an assistant secretary where we could have somebody who can give a hand with the organization of the meetings 
just to get things like slide shows or erm videos and things, you know, that's how we're gonna 
organizing the raffles just to get things like slide shows organized videos organized just a little bit of help.
will you?
thank you, robert.
yes.
so if we make a list of what we've got when you have a video night, if you or, or somebody else has the video list, you can say, well if you bring them back 
that's right and we, brian had the club slides which he very kindly handed over to us when he, he, he felt it became difficult for him to cope with it erm cos his dad's not well.
we have the club slides in our house so that you know really whoever takes over organizing the meeting should really have those and they're all sorted out in order so it's just a case of diving in the bag and looking for whatever you want, ever the i always try to bring some fish to look at, to the the scr to the screen erm some of the fish that were on show on the table for that particular sh er in erm table show because i think it shows interest and to learn more about the fish and it's always nice when somebody else knows a lot more about the particular species than you do, and i is able to tell you quirks and fancies that they have.
so i always try to do that but i, i, again i find that it's very erm very tiring and it's very, gets very can get very involved with it, so i would like us, i'd like you to think of the idea of a social secretary to help with the raffles and organizing what's going on at the meetings please.
erm and that's about all i have to say, mr chairman.
need a proposer .
i keep losing me place.
i'll have put me 
i know it's, it's not not 
and the report from the treasurer can we have your report, please?
this is what everyone's been waiting for.
have the er figures in front of you of our progress during the last twelve months you will no doubt see that we are in a very nice financial position er only a pound and a penny off that magic thousand pound in in the club now.
erm during the year we've made about er two hundred and two hundred and twenty odd pounds.
er it's not due to my expertise at all, it's just mainly due to the fact we don't go to shows these days we've always in the good old days when we used to go to shows we spent probably a hundred and thirty to two hundred pounds a year so we never had very much money as we don't go to these shows and spend this money it is it is a it is accumulating each year.
erm i'll go through, roughly through the accounts in case anybody's not quite clear what it's all about.
er we started off with seven hundred and seventy five pounds, seventy six, at the beginning of the year er the membership is only thirty seven, we have fewer members but er that's a very small proportion of our income.
four pound for visitors only seem to come and then disappear not many of them seem to join us.
erm because of a social evening er we had a raffle and a whiskey bowl i think the purists might not like the e in whiskey but that's the way it's been done that must be the southern way.
erm right the yorkshire aquarist festival we had a coach two ninety three pound on the coach and a raffle a hundred and six pound erm on the inter-club we had a fourteen pound twenty five entry and we had a raffle, twenty nine twenty five, making forty three pound fifty.
yorkshire was quite a success this year, we made a lot of money o on the income side er sixty two pound for entries ninety one pound ten for refreshments hundred and nine forty for the raffle, our kind and thanks to bert 
thanks to bert 
it says here.
for breaking the record for four minute mile.
the tombola thirty nine again thanks to bill for breaking the records.
five hundred and fifty pound and sponsorship coming from the members of course fifty three pound fifty.
all our w most of our money does come from the members themselves as you've seen.
er the er the breeders' evening now what happened on this breeders' evening is that the they run the raffle then give us our expenses out of it so that eleven pound eighty is the is the part of the raffle proceeds which we need to, to e to er for our expenses, you'll see on the other side erm that we spent that eleven eighty, six eighty for er refreshments and five pound for the rent.
er, the rest of it they take for the er to keep the breeders' going keep .
erm 
oh yes excellent.
er the coach to er to er bowness on the bus we took thirty nine pound erm with discount from last year people who er bought some last christmas we made twenty three pound on that the library, only thirty pence course, we've had trouble with the library because we can't leave it here now and er so that's why it's s so low the, the income.
er six twenty for the sale of badges fancy some of that was from a previous year.
yes it was it was.
i forgot about the sale of badges last year 
that's probably two years actually er income from that.
sales that were left over from the open show, three pound thirty fourteen pound ten for the collection, now that is as you see, that is over from last year last year the table show so we actually have double the number of entries on the bench this year which is a healthy sign 
really that
and er hopefully if we can only just bring enough fish each and every time erm we'll even get it higher.
now as you can see, our main income is our raffles two hundred and sixty pound, that is an increase of ooh seventy five pound on last year.
paid a hundred and eighty five last, two hundred and sixty this year.
er i'd just like to thank everybody for their generosity for taking part so .
erm we're trying to have beer put on the price each time now to make it worthwhile so you get a chance of getting your money back.
right that makes a total of seventeen eighty six, sixty one over the year.
erm, right on the expenditure side we have our normal subscriptions for the year, a s erm the f b a s which you all know, there's no strangers here who don't know what these are the a l a and the whale and dolphin er preservation society which we have taken on as a personal thing in the, in the er name of the club because it's cheaper 
no, it's in my name.
it's in your name but it's on behalf of the club.
it's on behalf of the club, yeah.
because the the, the club one's getting rather expensive so we yeah 
eighteen pounds.
so we decided to join that for this year.
the rent for the club room er five pound per go, a hundred and fifteen pound erm the christmas social, we spent fif thirty five fifty one on the refreshments and seven eighty nine on the whisky, making a forty three forty expenditure the club trophies, we spent nineteen pound fifty this year and we saved a lot of money on that this year, we spent about a hundred and thirty to forty last year erm so we have got a quite a difference just trying to find last year's erm there they are trophies, a hundred and sixteen pound we paid last year so have, we did save a lot of money by doing them ourselves more or less.
erm the inter-club show erm we had to pay judges er two of them thirty pound, we would normally have got keith for nothing, i know that we had two judges so we had to pay them er we did like so that's two fifty pounds and we bought some we had some old trophies which we were able to buy plates for to use for that event.
erm postage and stationery eight forty four raffle tickets ten thirty eight raffle prizes, sixteen twenty four,if i'm short.
erm table show judges, we had a table at the beginning of the year when we had the gentleman from runcorn, what's his name?
paul.
paul came to came to judge erm er that's the only time we've had a judge.
er hundred and forty pound for the coach to yorkshire which we got on the other side, a hundred and six pound back so the club er sponsored that, a hundred and thirty four pound, and thirty four pound.
erm right the open show fifty nine ninety five for the hire of the hall, much the same as last year, it's keeping pretty well down er, it's, we paid fifty three eighty last year, but i think because little bit for a longer time this year.
erm the judges, seventy five er and that's ten pound less than last year, maybe because we're struggling to get judges forty two pound for the trophies erm er, fifteen pound for the fish tank and plates at seventy five forty seven, crisps, eight seventy eight, which we struggled to sell we think you could sell crisps but we had a struggle.
postage, stationery, fourteen o six raffle tickets, eleven pound, making a total of two thirty twenty six as against on the other side the income, three ninety six so we made a hundred and sixty six pound on on the open show which is a great increase on last year because last year we only made twelve pounds something twelve pound and a penny we made last year, so this is a great increase.
the coach to the breeders' evening that's what i mentioned before, we paid for the refreshments and the rent show secretary has only claimed two pounds which is a scandal really she's probably paid twenty out, twenty pounds 
yeah i think so cos she's sitting here smiling.
so joe doesn't get so many mushy peas.
er champion of champions we've, i bought some prizes for the champion of champions, and food er just to go with the trophies er keith again was our judge and erm knowing that he doesn't willingly accept money, he wants to come and do it for nothing erm how many proposed that we buy him something a bottle to take with him, so we bought him a bottle of wine to take with him and er that was the three pound.
so that gives us a total expenditure of seven eighty seven sixty two for the year and that leaves us with a balance er of the year and that's nine ninety eight ninety nine pence.
so we're exceedingly well off really for the size of the club and my trip to amazon, up the amazon collecting fish gets nearer and nearer 
gets nearer every day you wouldn't get 
erm 
very far on a thousand pound though, would you?
well as i say i mean we're doing very well and all the money and, and you know, ninety percent of the money comes out of the the er the members' pockets really i mean ev even the sub for the open show, we put out a lot of that even the stuff and things like this, so we do provide an awful lot of money.
er we haven't used very much of it this year i mean i think er i mentioned a few weeks ago the, the question of trips out perhaps in the spring to do fish and that, we could consider er we don't want to just go er accumulating money for the sake of it erm, we want to get some benefit out of the money we've got.
erm we may of course go to bowness next year if the circumstances change and we can manage it that will course cost a fair amount of money but that remains to be seen, we'll have to wait and see how the club progresses during the year whether we think we can do it .
right, any questions?
no?
we don't them.
we don't with thousand pound in his back pocket can't be bad.
it's coming to the stage soon when we'll have to put it in a building society, get some interest on it.
i mean sh shame in the banks i mean we don't get charges any charges from this bank, i mean if, if you er put it in some banks you get interest charge you on your cheques and all sorts of things, it, it's as broad as it's long usually but er i mean we are gonna accumulate money, i don't think we should accumulate very much more now, we, we've ample funds for everything we need er but it's a question 
but it's just lying in the bank dormant and it's not making any interest i know it's not being, i know we're not being charged but 
trouble is 
building society, i don't know they do it.
maybe you could the only way we could do it is er a joint account and that would be have to be based on trust you know, a mutual trust between er y your two main people er y you would just have to trust them erm nobody, how do members feel about if you 
that's true.
well it's a and stuff like that, i mean 
but i mean i
the reason i propose giving he has to do is come 
it's embarrassing.
and sometimes he, he, he feels it be putting on those 
yes yes and he's such a nice man and he does it so willingly if he can.
that's why he's 
yes.
oh, i'll have one off him, yeah
when it's done like, you know it's going 
oh yes, i'll have one him.
yeah, he's doing it.
yes yes.
we are struggling with judges aren't we?
and what about, you know about the judges, don't you?
yes, but it doesn't 
i just mentioned it er we have we have had a suggestion from b class judges that er that the b class judges can show at er an, an open show providing, providing they declare beforehand 
providing they declare their interests 
it is what i've always thought for a long time that somebody like brian if he's not if he's not showing at our fish at our show, even as an a class judge, i, i fail to see why he can't judge at our show it's, he goes to skelm and, and judges there and our fish will be there or strange really when we're struggling for judges that, that we don't do these things.
yeah, but we're looking at the financial side, aren't we really?
w with brian 
well i know i mean it we're struggling to get judges, aren't we, and it's not going to get any better, it's going 
no.
to get worse if anything, not better the way things are going.
we're obviously obviously thinking along these lines 
is there?
he, he was apparently and then on the saturday or sunday h h he, he started to reject so he had to go back in.
oh.
yeah.
where did he used to live?
yes.
where was he from?
so all, all the a class judges are getting a little bit long in the tooth now 
no more questions?
no one, no more questions?
i'd like er to thank alan for being involved erm a proposer and seconder?
proposed by steve seconded by 
right er please can we have your report please.
well it's not much, i mean 
you would like to see more on the tables 
well we have had more fish out yeah we have had more fish out 
in the show 
pardon?
where did we come in the show ?
ninth
ninth
ninth
that wasn't too bad.
i shall put in the report must do better!
do better!
we do want more fish out.
any comment about the s the sort of format of the table show do we want to change them at all 
how, how did it work out on the champion of champions night with having the the table show, the full table show that we cancelled when danny came er how did it work er did it work out comfortably?
oh yeah 
er i felt, i've been after danny for nearly twelve months to come see and not been able to get him on the night i want him the only night he was able, was available was i think it was one night when we had something else on i can't remember what it was.
erm i think it was an inter-club actually, oh the inter-club table show was the only night he could manage and that was no good to us so erm we, we the only way we could do it was to t bring him the night that there was a full table show transfer the full table show to the champion of champions judge that first and put the winning fish into the champion of champions and i know, well it's gonna be woof you know a rush and that will, oh well, never mind.
least we knew we'd get some extra fish didn't we?
yeah it's good that they had a fairer chance of getting on to the tables 
twenty minutes 
so erm i'm you kn i don't propose to do that again because i wouldn't er i wouldn't arrange a speaker if we had a full table show but it's nice to know that it did work out because we were, i was forced into a corner a little bit erm and i think it was worth it because we as i say i've waited a long time for danny and he was well worth listening to, i can listen to danny for hours because he he just speaks and, and tells you about his fish, i'm, i'm very very fond of listening to danny cos i think he gives a good talk.
he has he the same problems that we've all had you know erm and yes he's, he's, he's very easy to listen to despite the fact that he's a southerner.
but we'll forgive him that 
he comes from near windsor, doesn't he, cos he said he has a mate has a fish shop in windsor 
that's right 
often go to windsor
that's right.
we was looking at a video 
erm it's an old one and it's called fancy fish and we were sorting our videos out to list 'em and then we'll make a list and then we'd let you have and then if you want a video and that, you know what you got and we were looking through this fancy fish and it's erm i don't know if you remember it, it shows an open show at oxford 
oh yeah, i think so.
yes i remember.
anyway it's an open show 
yeah
i think the 
and he's got longer hair.
yeah yeah 
yeah
well he still looks young, i mean despite the fact that he's a grandfather i think twice over 
grandfather for years 
been a grandfather for years.
he's got a a oh dear .
right er may i just make one comment on by bringing the table show with danny and er th champion of champions it er it er i don't know how many people champion of champions,
can't hear you.
you know, i, i couldn't bring all the fish i mean i just put some on the table i couldn't bring all the champion of champions
cos of the tank couldn't carry it.
because of the time and the 
yeah
it probably would never happen again cos it was 
yeah it was a lot of work 
yes yes.
we had no how many people showed on monday?five of them?
yeah.
there's a lot of it actually, it'd be nice if 
i realize that, you know i would say five of them five people in both departments champion of champions let's hope that it never happens again, you know, these things do happen.
well is on that, you know.
there was yourself and , jack 
and er 
you didn't bring any ?
no i didn't bring any, no 
erm that gentleman
was it the cold water temperature 
it could have been worse could have been worse.
would only be 
couldn't have been really much better really,
well 
yeah
well he was dashing out when i when i called him erm his wife answered the phone and she said you just him he's going out at the door so he came rushing back and i said i wanted him to judge champion of champions and the and i said there'll be two and he said, hang on, and he's write it down said i'll just stick it all at one and see to it when i come back, oh i gotta go and he went.
yeah.
and that was it.
yeah yeah yeah.
well he, he appreciated at the previous table show on the sixth of october and that was a case when it was always you know, because danny only told me on that night that he could come.
yeah.
so it was all a hotchpotch, it was all and i had to do the the best i could for those who showed fish and that was the only way i could do it.
right er thanks emily for your report.
any proposers and seconders?
i'll propose emily's report and, and in doing so i'd like to say thank you to her for her sterling work this year, i think she's done a terrific job erm and i'd like to thank her personally for the help she's given me over the year.
i couldn't have managed without her.
any seconders?
got to get your name in the minutes somehow.
right, thanks emily.
erm librarian's report 
sixty p and thirty p
oh is it?
thirty pence.
yeah well 
we auc we auctioned the books after as you know and erm so i i'll have to make a new list of what's left and let you have it.
i know i, i will be against 
they take books out once or twice and then the older members don't take 'em out 
i mean i know it's difficult 
yeah.
having them at home i mean erm 
yeah
but they're still not 
they didn't they didn't take them out of the joe you know erm 
er i think we get a saturation point and the thing that annoys me is that young fellow who came to the club had a got, we got a special went to the special trouble of getting a for him and i cannot get it off him and he lives up newton way somewhere i've been to him three times 
i've been to that house 
and i've i've phoned three or four times and you can get no reply and i'm, i'm a bit cheesed off with it cos this is the second time 
small claims court.
for want of a better word they're actually stolen books are stolen.
i'll get it i'll get it back, i know where he lives.
do you?
i mean 
yes i've phoned and i've written three times and i've written to his mother our official letter, official no headed notepaper she's not there, she works as a nurse doesn't she?
she's not in till nine o' clock.
well they anyway, were they?
they were 
order it specially cos it's not a book you'd ask for often, is it i suppose.
yes i know er yes i er er i er er i, i think it's a good thing that people, if they ask for information, you've got to buy books to get them.
but what's aggrieved me is that he's just waltzed off with it and not 
it looks like he just and come here just to get a book.
i'll ask him and he's, he's just ignoring all the er 
that's right a letter that we're taking him to court 
i know there's a couple 
erm 
yes.
what was his name?
alan .
okay, a course on presentation skills.
how many have been on a on a training course before?
i know has so several of you have already been on a training course so you'll know the sort of er way in which we work and the way things happen.
erm let me just let me just ask you first of all what is the value for you and for the company of of developing skills on presentations.
what's the value?
respective clients
indeed, indeed so that's what you might use, yep what's the value, i mean what does it do what does it do for the company first of all?
promotes it
promotes it, so it's about image isn't it?
it's about because the company after all is you it's a group of people and so er it's about putting over the right image so quality presentation to a client the image.
what's the value to you as individuals?
more confidence
it gives you more confidence, yeah, what's it do for you within the company?
pushes your standing up 
oh that's what i thought yeah yeah yes
well i mean you're right in a way bob those people who seem to get on within a company some of them are people who seem to be able to say the right words at the right time don't they?
they seem to be able to put their point of view over.
they they're able to by by the way they present themselves they're able to demonstrate their value within the organisation and as bob says hopefully then it increases your status.
yeah although the tape's on i'll still say i'll still say i mean there are people within the company as within any company i'm sure who you when you get to know their technical ability or lack thereof you think well how have they managed to get where they have but they just seem to be able they seem to have this ability to be able to be in the right place at the right time.
well yes but also say the right words at the right time yeah? yep.
so being able to present effectively and put your point of view across is very important within within the company context for the company in order to to project the right image and also to pro project your own right image.
to show your value, to demonstrate your worth for the organisation.
now as you probably know this is a level nine course it's a it's a course on which a platform is erected for other courses as gordon said then the the introduction to management you have to make a short presentation don't you but it doesn't concentrate just on this.
this concentrates on it but builds builds the platform on which other courses on advanced presentation skills and negotiation skills team presentation skills are all founded and so you're able to er continue through er the courses.
now we we just mentioned tarmac's tarmac's objectives let's just go through them er after the course you should be able to make clear logical and well organised case presentations, fine.
er you should be able to display more confidence, i mean that's what mike suggested it gives you more confidence to be able to do this.
to make more effective preparation for speaking, to maintain a higher standard of discussion at all times and to display a more positive reaction to questions.
okay so those are the objectives that tarmac have.
now i hope that by tomorrow afternoon you're able to say yes all those objectives have been met but it may well be and i'm sure it is that you as individuals have other objectives, you have other issues that you want to address er or put more emphasis on during these two days.
so what i'd like you to do if you just turn to page one sort of a couple of pages in the first one that's numbered.
you'll have the opportunity to write down your objectives.
you see towards the bottom er we pose a few questions there, i'm going to ask you in a few minutes to introduce yourselves and to say what what sort of presentations you make at the moment.
now don't think in terms of presentations just as standing up in front of an audience.
it may well be that you don't actually do that, it may be that you have one to one meetings with people or group meetings er which could be when you have to put across your point of view.
those could be classed as presentations.
so when was the last time you made a presentation and then what i'd like you to do and there are three lines there you may only have one you may have two, three, four objectives
just spend a couple of minutes now and jot down what it is you would like to get out of this course by tomorrow afternoon what you would like to say you've achieved on this course.
just just er pop those down.
right, erh what i'd like to do then is er i say could you just introduce yourself or what you're working on at the moment where you work and then the sort of presentations that you make er and then give us one of your objectives so that by the time we've got right round the room we'll er hopefully have everybody.
tony would you start us off?
erm i work for 
alright
erm which is quite management at 
right
erm i suppose one of the er things i'd like to er get out of this would be a bit more 
okay so putting all the that positive
yeah sort of ums and ahs
oh right okay okay so i mean are are you saying that's about confidence?
is it or ?
well maybe , maybe, maybe thinking ahead too much 
er right, okay okay so better preparation so that when you make the presentation it's more effective, yeah?
yeah i mean you're trying to think ahead, you're umming and ahing 
so effective preparation
yeah
effective preparation so that you so that when you you stand up here you're more confident you're more 
yeah
good, do you do you make present any sort of presentations ?
well i meet clients quite a bit erm the last one i actually made was last week
oh really
to tarmac financial directors directors 
how do you how do you feel it went?
it went pretty well actually, the feedback i got from my immediate boss fairly pleased with it was pleased with it
good
obviously 
right
yeah, good okay good.
so effective preparation.
mike.
i'm a senior with south west i management course i cover site planning right the way through.
erm been in the game now for something like forty years.
started as an apprentice and worked my way through to management.
erm this course or mainly my presentations are written
okay
er we in fact have a tender 
mm
frequent the main discussion er was in fact erm internally with our director 
right
information or what have you
right
and also to our site teams cover successfully the job and explain to them how the teams were built up 
right, okay
the main thing i suppose.
this was dropped on me out of the blue, i must admit this course 
was it , okay?
right
erm would be more confidence in presentation
okay how to deal with 
how to project and verbally 
how to give how to give an image of confidence
yes
okay
verbally not written, written
yes sure, yeah
written 
yes yes absolutely, oh yes this this course is entirely about verbal presentation
yep
great thanks.
jeff
erm my name is and i work for my objective of this really is to reappraise my presentation skills.
i did this course erm about ten years ago
right
so this is very much a refresher course
okay so you're you're wanting some some feedback
yes
er right was that with with jeremy?
yes
yeah fine, okay great thanks.
sarah.
i work my main aim on this course is to gain confidence
right
i don't do many presentations mainly because i work in a small team 
right, right so it's about confidence great thanks.
bob
senior midland area and i've been working on a job in coventry which is basically work er what i hope to get mainly out of this course is an increased level of personal confidence so i can overcome basic nervousness when speaking.
how to handle the nerves, i'll say right now and half of you may want to walk out of the room.
i don't have a magic wand i do not have a magic wand that you know take three deep breaths turn round twice and your nerves will disappear yep.
so if that's what wanting we've got problems straightaway erm but certainly we will discuss what to do about that yes and to recognise them and to understand why, yes, fine but i don't have a magic wand.
i'd i'd be a millionaire if i did wouldn't i?
rob .
senior engineer for midlands area i'm er presently on seventeen million pound office development the job's completion erm my presentations are basically from site labour to erm professional engineers and architects
yep
on a one to one basis or or to small meetings
mm
what i hope to gain on the course is to be able to speak more confidently and to get over the nerves.
right, great thanks.
gordon
senior engineer for midlands region, currently been working on the developments which is design built and development gangs of which 
yep
erm i have er one to one dealing with subcontractors engineers the architects and site meetings not a great preparation but there is
more or less every day to day
right
erm i hope to get out of this more personal confidence and more talk more clearly
so it's to be clear in what you're saying to be able to explain yourself clearly so it's about clarity
right 
the need to make it clear so that people understand without having to sort of keep coming back and asking again and again, yep, great, thanks.
john
i'm i'm the senior south west i currently work schemes my main aim on the course is er to gain more confidence
right okay what sort of.
do you make presentations now?
meetings 
yep so it's it's about meetings?
yep
great, thanks, tom
erm, my name's from edinburgh a couple of jobs one which is the sort of presentations i do tends to be one to one the hardest one for me as i say meetings with quite a lot of people there
right
erm, i think i want to try and improve my presentation 
right, so it's the actual presentation skills themselves
that's right 
and what we actually do when we're standing up so that it becomes more effective yeah?
great.
my name's i'm from tarmac construction plant at depot i'm office manager and i'm also in charge of the stores hiring all the plant and equipment for all the sites in our area
right
i also as many stores as possible
of course 
erm i don't make presentations as such but erm i do have one to one discussions with on the sites on what plant they need and stores
right, yep
basically i hope to be more effective in talking to as i can
right, so it's about persuasion isn't it?
yeah
right,mike
i'm i'm a site agent for tarmac construction at erm i attend quite a few erm presentations really, tender interviews often going to the clients management meetings, site meetings and then like a lot of you the one to one situation.
sure
apart from most of those
right
erm i'd like to be able to present something in front of me which prompts me a bit better than i do at the moment i tend to get lost in what's in front of me.
right, right so that's that's partly to do with you your preparation isn't it but it's if i put the word script
yeah
we'll i know what we mean yep how do you prepare what what you physically have in front of you so that you're able to put the point over effectively
yeah right yep great, dave
morning, i'm i'm a site agent for tarmac refurb based in birmingham
yes
erm, the bulk of my presentations are obviously site based, site meetings,meetings meetings.
i have been involved in meetings
right
for a variety of different contracts er my last presentation was a site meeting last thursday
right
last week and er what i want to get out of course is obviously increased confidence and skill at sort of maintaining the aims of the meeting or the presentation
so it's getting your point across and achieving your objective
keeping the meetings as precise because i tend to my meetings wandering and
ah, okay now that's that's
keeping to the theme of the meeting
yes, okay now that's about meetings as such isn't it which is a which is almost another subject but i know what you mean it's about timing in a way yes, that's what you're saying?
we're not gonna get into anything about chairmanship of meetings on this course, there is a meeting's course that does that so i don't want to promise you something that i'm not gonna i'm not gonna be able to deliver i know what you mean certainly in terms of timing of your presentation keeping t time with your presentation we'll be looking at that and help you achieve that.
so can we can we keep it to that?
yep, fine
okay, i ju as i say i don't want to promise you something that that i know i'm not going to be able to achieve in these two days because that's not yep certainly if you want to talk about that you know as a separate thing outside the time then then we'll be able to help you do that, okay?
okay yep
as i say i don't want to promise you something and and then and then at the end you say well hang on we didn't look at that because that's not within the agenda of of these two days.
okay, so what we're looking at over these two days and what in order for you to be able to say yes we've achieved the objectives er by tomorrow is how to use that time that we have to prepare to to the most er efficient and effective so that e the preparation you know when you've prepared it that yes when i stand up to speak i'm gonna be able to put these points over effectively and make the presentation memorable.
confidence and in a way that attaches to also nerves, how to be able to stand up and appear confident, appear that you know what you're talking about and you are you can confidently put your message across.
some feedback now jeff said okay he's done this course before and he's looking for feedback to to see the level of his competence at this point, but everybody er i'm sure you will agree by the end of tomorrow will have got feedback.
feedback on how effective you are and how your effectiveness has increased over the two days.
because when all said and done if at the end of two days you don't feel that you're any better at making a presentation then when you started then why have you been here for two days.
so certainly in terms of feedback erm and how to deal with these nerves.
what to understand to understand what they're about.
to make sure that we're able to put our point across clearly so that we speak in a clear way so that people don't have any er doubts as to what you actually mean.
when we've prepared how do we then effectively present.
what are the skills we need to stand up and be able to present effectively?
how to put a point over persuasively.
persuasion is about changing people's minds.
so how to put over a point that supports the point of view that you have when you want to change something.
what to do in terms of scripts, what do we physically have here that we're going to read from or not read from as the case may be.
erm and how we can speak to time and how we can control that time and make sure that even with interruptions which is what in a way what a meeting is about a discussion, that we're able to stick to the time that we've allocated for the particular meeting or presentation that we've got.
so if by the end of tomorrow we can say yes we've achieved all that have have we got a course?
yep okay.
these these are a measure aren't they they're a measure of the quality of what we're going to do over the next two days and therefore i will come back to these tomorrow afternoon i will check through them and if everybody can say yes yes i'm satisfied with that then we've achieved what we set out to achieve today.
okay now as those of you who have been on a course will know er on a training course one thing i particularly ask you and we all do is to be open minded.
we're here for two days and i'm going to present to what to some of you will be some new ideas some new concepts that you've perhaps never come across before.
so i ask you to be open minded they may seem a little bit off the wall to start with, but everything that we do is done for a purpose to achieve er what we're wanting to achieve and what i do want to achieve is by the end of tomorrow is to have given you a system.
now you might think presentation and a system do they go together?
what i'll do is give you a system whereby even at the drop of a hat you will be able to put together a few words and speak with clarity, speak coherently and be able to put your point of view across.
you know the situations where you're in a i don't know a meeting in some presentation and somebody wants you to give a vote of thanks have you ever had that,i had that birmingham university one time.
i'm a member of the institution of electrical engineers and er because i'm by background an electronics engineer and i was at a meeting there where a chap was giving a talk on design express lifts you know at northampton and the chairman stood up and introduced doctor whoever he was sat down turned round to me in the second row and said could you give a vote of thanks at the end.
so i'm hoping that this system that i give you will allow you to do that, anybody been a best man at a wedding?
what do you say at a wedding.
oh dear me so i'm hoping that the system that i give you will allow you to deal with all those situations as well as make a longer presentation where you do have some preparation time.
so be opened minded.
i take on board these ideas for these two days.
at the end of two days you say well fine but it's not for me i can't do anything about that when you walk out the room but i hope my objective is to convince you that here is something that like lots of other people in time i can it's a very very useful system.
.. try it out when you leave here, try it out in the meetings and the presentations that you have to make i encourage you to do that, to try it out in your day to day working and for those people who have either already been on this course or are coming on this course after you that you meet encourage them to do the same, because there's nothing like encouragement and feedback from each other to be able to use these new ideas.
and of course if you've got any questions in the two days i'm not just going to er at you all the time you know it's participation is this so any questions that you have any comments you want to make please feel free to make them at any time it's not going to throw me.
you have a set of notes here now i'm not gonna start at page one and work right through to page whatever it is erm they are there for you to take away for you to make notes during these two days er and for you to take away so that they're they're for revision and er there are as bob's just discovering pages where a i'll ask you to make make specific notes er that i'll supply to you as we go along.
okay then let me just by way of er introduction er to the concepts and the content of what we're going to do over the next two days let me just put a very small fraction of a picture up here.
i don't know if anybody's seen this before.
anybody want to stake a month's salary on what this is a picture of?
a church
a church, possibly yeah.
i think as i as i reveal a bit more you'll get it.
tower bridge
tower bridge, right absolutely, yeah gives it away doesn't it?
now a daft question in a way but how do we know it's tower bridge?
seen it before
you've seen it before yeah that's right you you recognise it from the shape and and er because you've either seen pictures of it before or you've been there.
anybody like to guess roughly when this was drawn, fifties, sixties, forties, seventies?
seventies you think, sixties
fifties to sixties
possibly something like that, yeah.
how do we how do we guess that?
mike i mean 
because knowing london and knowing tower bridge those buildings over the far side aren't there any more
right absolutely, so it's about the horizon isn't it?
so we we we recognise by the horizon possibly when when this was drawn.
if you went and stood in the same place now then obviously it would look different in that sense, wouldn't it so the background if you like would be different wouldn't it with high rise and maybe a different .
so the horizon the background would be would be different, but what would be the same?
the bridge
the bridge itself wouldn't it?
the two towers and the bridge itself would be the same, and in a way that that's what we can look at an analogy to do with er presentation skills.
we've got two towers two things that are fundamental and don't change.
they're the same now as they were in the fifties when making presentations and that's about the skills you need when you stand up to speak and the skills you need in the preparation phase so the two towers of presentation skills are about the preparation and the presentation itself.
the design and the delivery.
the background changes and in a way the background is about things like the visual aids, flipcharts and er the use of video and er even these peripherals you can put on a on a overhead projector now that plug into a computer.
i don't know if anybody's ever seen those but you can actually have a computer at the side and a thing that sits on there and you can change and up on the screen it will appear what's on the screen on the computer.
things like that.
so those are all if you like the background, the things that do change but the fundamentals that stay the same are the design and the delivery and although we'll look a little bit although we've er i have to say with the numbers we've got here today it will only be a little bit about things like question and visual aids and because of the time factor if you think about it if we've twelve people to make four presentations or we've eight people to make four presentations time is a little bit different and with with twelve we don't perhaps have the luxury of time that we would with eight people which is what the course was originally designed for.
so but nevertheless we will look at a little bit at those peripheral things, but we're going to concentrate mainly on the design and on the delivery of a presentation so that's what we want to what we want to look at over the next two days.
but of course if we're going to do that we need somewhere to start and where we're going to start is that i'm going to ask you to each to make a presentation, a very short presentation.
so what i'd like you to do if you haven't got some paper there's stacks of paper here and what i'd like you to do is grab a piece of paper and write down what i'm going to tell you.
okay i'm going to ask each of you to speak for three minutes so you might like to jot that down.
a three minute presentation okay.
okay here we go then.
well the first question i want to ask you is how do you feel you got on in those presentations.
got it over and done with
got it over and done with yes, yes somebody somebody dried up did they nobody sort of er
i wish it was true 
well okay.
the the first question is this is this thing about nerves isn't it because that's the first feeling you have when you got up get up here is and as said i'm dry already and i haven't even been up there and done it yet the voice is dry and you know then you feel a bit shaky and all that sort of thing and why do we why do we feel nervous?
a fool of ourselves
sorry
in case we make a fool of ourselves
well that's right it's that fear isn't it of of
getting it wrong
lack of confidence
getting it wrong, it's a lack yes that's right that's right it's it's probably a slightly unusual situation as well isn't it here you this isn't something you do every single day is to stand up.
quite so it's about feeling you're going to make a fool of yourself, i mean what's the feeling when you come in and you sit down first thing in the morning you look all round at the other eleven people
you don't want to stand out
that's right you want to blend in but what's the real feeling what's the thought in your head?
they're all cleverer than you are
everybody's better than than yeah, are we i mean you know you've seen you've seen twelve presentations well you've seen eleven presentations plus you've done your own now there is that fear isn't there.
everybody's bound to be better than i am, yes.
there's some sort of standard that we think we ought to have in order to do this thing right and we're we're below everybody else, yes.
isn't that true, is that
yes
the real feeling and we feel we've got to come up to some sort of a standard.
now when somebody else stood up here if somebody had totally dried up or been so nervous they couldn't do it what would you have felt.
sorry for them
absolutely, we all want want each other to do well don't we?
and it's it's true in any presentation there's nothing more uncomfortable is there than somebody in the middle of a presentation that you're watching struggling that's right you really feel sorry for them.
so standing up here there aren't eleven twelve people ready to shoot you down are there.
they all want you to do well.
that's right they're all with me, yeah that's right because you know that you've just been there or you're going to be there yourself.
but this this nervous thing is a very primitive instinct and i'm just coming up to a word i never can pronounce so you're going to have to help me with this one.
this is where i get nervous because i know i've come into a word i know i can't pronounce.
in the br at the back of the brain there is the pi 
pituitary
thank you pituitary gland
biology
well done, i never can get that word out i stumble with it every time and that gets a signal from the brain that says this is a difficult situation this is something i'm not used to this is some i it's very primitive it's it's from the days in the jungle or whatever er a fear of fright over absolute it's fight or flight, and that's why you start breathing quicker because the blood wants more oxygen because it's ready to run or to fight because the muscles, it is 
it's true
it's absolutely true and this shaking is the limbs are ready to spring into action one way or another and this gland injects adrenalin
or sorry it sends a signal to the adrenal glands which sit on the top of the kidneys yeah, and pumps adrenalin into the blood which again is something that makes you ready and that's what all these things about about a dry throat a wonky voice a shaking limbs is all about a very primitive instinct of fight or flight.
now trying to think of a situation where you might come up here and have no nerves whatsoever.
i mean i know it's difficult
when nobody else is here
sorry
when nobody else is here
when nobody else is here but i mean one definition of that is that you're asleep yeah.
if there's no sort of arousal of any sort yep.
let's just plot a graph when we stand up here we're wanting to perform right we're wanting to do an activity we have some level of anxiety.
now we've just said there needs to be some level somewhere if you're right down this end of the curve here you're either asleep or dead so there's some peak performance at some level of anxiety or arousal and as the anxiety increases the performance drops off.
okay.
but you have to have some level of arousal has to be something pumping round you round your blood your brain has to be working in some way to be able to perform.
so we have some peak okay at which we are performing.
right down this other end of the curve the level of anxiety is so high that performance is zero, that's when you freeze.
i mean there was a classic case a couple of years ago of a lady who was pushing a baby in a pram across a zebra crossing and as she was half way across out of the corner of her eye she saw a truck thundering towards her which was quite clearly wasn't going to stop and that you know a sort of fairly anxious situation, and she froze.
she could not move.
she absolutely could not move because her level of arousal was so high she had no performance her performance being walking in that case
well but i mean that's an example and as i say at this end where you've no arousal you're either asleep or dead, there's no sort of performance performance of any sort and we talk about having those butterflies in the stomach don't we?
we talk about the butterflies and that that's to do with this this effect of the the adrenalin in the system.
now the professional presenter is the one who can get them to fly in formation .
it's it's not about being able to get rid of them totally and we agree that we need some sort of level of arousal it's being able to perform despite them to use that arousal to put into an effective presentation, and that's what this two days is about is getting those butterflies for you to fly in formation.
to be able to actually present effectively whilst still having those butterflies whilst still having that that slightly anxious feeling.
i get it, i get it every time i come into one of these but i i hope that i've got it in got them in formation.
now the purpose of therefore of this training course and any any training course is to do this is to be able to handle the arousal and increase your level of performance and even get the peak to move that way so for any level of arousal you're getting better performance but you're also able to handle a bit more butterflies a bit more of the nerves in order to perform effectively, and apart from a training course like this how do you achieve that?
experience
experience, which is based on
practice
practice, doing it yep.
so when i said to bob this morning was it bob, i said don't i don't have a magic wand that's gonna get rid of them but what i hope i'm gonna give you over these two days is a system whereby you can use that and can support you so you're able to effectively present despite having the nerves and be able to put over your point of view effectively, yeah?
how do you feel about that yeah okay.
yeah
everybody everybody happy well i you just sort of went like that and i wasn't quite sure whether you was sort
it was an early morning
oh sorry so that's that's what it's what it's about so what we want to do then over these next two days is to develop the skills of design and delivery and will allow us to do that allow us to improve our performance despite the fact that we do have the nerves and by practice by doing it by putting yourself in the situation where you have to make a presentation and almost as one chap said one time sitting there actually with your sitting there remembering he said actually volunteer to make presentations to the other people there .
but it's it's about about doing that and about being able to practice and use these skills and techniques so that we can improve performance.
so let's let's look at what we can do then.
well okay this morning what i'd like to do in the half hour or so that we've got before lunch is to talk about the skills we need when we actually come up here to deliver then this afternoon we'll look at that feedback from the video and what you did and then we'll move on to the skills of design, the preparation skills.
so when we come up here to make a presentation let's put aside at the moment the content of what we actually say what do we what do we need to think about?
what are the areas that we need to think about, the skills that we need to develop?
the way you look
the way you look, your appearance in a way is what you're saying, yeah
your stance
your stance, the way you stand that's right, those sorts of things
body language
body language, yes we'll talk a little bit about body language and take that just a little bit further
the people who you're delivering to delivering the presentation to and whether they understand
right okay, whether they understand yes so how you get the contact with them, yes.
how you maintain their interest and how you get feedback from them.
okay let's let's put those sorts of ideas, you turn to page three in the notes you'll see there's a proforma there
okay, so we're going to concentrate on the left hand side for the moment.
the delivery skills thing.
okay now we talked about things like as tony said body language er we talked about things like er contact with the audience but what fundamentally are we doing when we stand up here?
talking
talking right.
so what's that about?
well i mean what's er what do we have to think about
communication
yeah, communication in general possibly about breathing about the way we use the voice yes, and of course the words we actually use
accent
accent possibly yeah.
well we'll talk about that because joanne you and i er have accents don't we?
yeah 
that are not the standard english shall we say something like that.
so let's think of all first of all then about the voice.
now there's a word i'm going to use right now which is a technical term in a way and that is is er the technical term for the study of language and how we speak the word what we say and how we say it.
it goes under the lovely title of paralinguistics
para yeah that's right yeah.
paralinguistics is is the study of the words we say and how we say them.
so quite obviously the how we say things is all to do with the voice isn't it?
now i've got four letter ps to do with the voice er and what i want to do is is think about the comparison of aspects of the voice when we have a normal one to one conversation and compare that with the same aspects when we're making a presentation standing in front of a group.
first of all power.
the power of the voice.
how do we need to adjust the power when we're making a presentation?
to the size of the audience
to the size absolutely, to the size of the audience so if we say a one to one we've got a certain level of conversational power if you say so with a group like this it has to be
just raised slightly doesn't it yes and obviously if you've got fifty people and you don't have a microphone or anything then it becomes even more so.
you get much above about fifty people you perhaps do need a some technical assistance with the power.
so the power needs to be just slightly slightly raised okay.
now another p, anybody think of other ps to do with the voice.
pitch
pitch, that's that's yes.
now pitch is to do with er technically to do with the frequency isn't it the the high or low pitch like on a piano from high notes to low notes?
what do we need to ensure in terms of pitch when we're speaking to a group of people?
variety
sorry
variety
variety that's right there has to be variety because because if you talk in a monotone all the time then it all becomes rather boring doesn't it?
so there's got to be variations in the pitch.
power, pitch, there's one i want to squeeze in between but i mean it doesn't matter.
pace
pace, pace, yeah.
in a way projection is sort of with power.
pace that's right you've been cheating and looking on looking on the next page
that's right.
the pace okay.
the speed at which we speak okay.
yeah
power and pace and pitch and pause.
yes okay.
let's just go back to the pace then.
how does the pace want to be compared with normal con one to one conversation perhaps?
slightly slower
slightly slower just so that the words come over a bit clearer yes, so so people can actually take in what you say okay.
now the pause, how about the pause?
to get attention 
you do don't you
it gives emphasis it attracts people's attention
sorry
pregnant pause
pregnant pau that's right a pregnant pause isn't it?
i mean 
but it's perhaps one of the most difficult things when you start out doing presentations isn't it.
because you get that silence in the room and mmm you want to fill it so but you're right the use of the pause effective and particularly with a variation in pitch that gives that emphasis the two combined together can be very very effective.
okay so the power the pace the pitch and the pause all to do with voice and slight variations on those compared with normal one to one conversation okay.
so that's about the voice itself now under paralinguistics also comes that the concept of words.
words are are i mean what are words?
a simple thing to say but what are words?
expression
yes er but what do they express then 
sorry
feelings
could express feelings yes.
facts
thoughts
facts feelings yes thoughts absolutely there there there a code aren't they?
i mean if you speak three different languages you could use three different words to put the same sort of thought of a picture dog, chien, hound there's probably an italian and a and that but if you speak the languages then different words different codes if you like are for the same idea.
so that's what words are about.
now brr any anybody here like me from yorkshire?
no you're from slightly further north.
you're from yorkshire?
sometime ago
sometime ago right so you may catch this, and you're from slightly further north than that i think?
right okay.
anybody from the liverpool area?
no no okay.
if i said to john and joanne erm that i saw a boy running up the ginnel no you understand?
you do you do?
yeah
i know what you said but i dunno what a ginnel is.
okay a snicket
i don't know what a snicket is either
no
no
yes
but i know what you're saying
alright yeah, okay you see the point that that it's it's words what the heck's he talking
no no i know exactly
oh you did, yeah it's it's er no but i mean in terms of the actual word you don't know what it is
no
er it's it's about geography isn't it? er coming from different areas of the country.
right let me just explain then just just for the sake of completeness.
erm in the days when they had terraced houses back to back terraced houses erm well anywhere in the country i guess but but where i come from it was fine for the people who lived with their doors on the on the road but the people who lived at the other side of the block they couldn't get from the road so every so often down the down the terrace they had a little alley way an entry i think you'd probably call it in scotland, don't they?
we talking about this and i was saying about coming from construction i says i've says i've to go up the cut like
oh the cut yeah 
where i call the cut, and he's going the cut what cut that's the canal i says up the cut between the two the two buildings she said no that's the alley
that's the alley, yeah, or the ginnel or the snicket you know or in liverpool they call it a jigger
or the cut
yeah so you see the point, if you're making a presentation and you use words like that based on where you come from the geography you know your regional variations then it's a bit it's a bit difficult for er effective communication isn't it?
so we have think about making sure that we use or if we use a word and people don't understand it
explain it
explain it, absolutely now so that's about words based on geographical variations or regional variations within the country er er something to be avoided but what about in the industry you're in.
jargon
jargon.
absolutely yeah.
now there's a word that covers that and that the the choice of words based on on getting it right for the audience particularly in terms of jargon is what is called wordsmith.
cho choosing words in if if you think of a parallel with blacksmith, a blacksmith takes base metal and sort of bends it and shapes it to the appropriate shape.
choosing the right words for the audience particularly based on jargon is what's called wordsmith.
now somebody said they got involved in prequalification meetings, yeah.
mike who might you have as an audience in a prequalification er hang on er prequalification everybody understand prequalification?
let's make sure we didn't use any term that everybody understands yeah.
understand what
right exactly because you might you might have the client or a representative of the client as well as architects and people who would so you have to be careful don't you in terms of using the right words.
so your presentation would be
simplified
simplified that's right.
where the jargon might arise would be perhaps in response to questions from an architect for instance yes.
technical yeah the technical people but you have to ensure don't you that with with your audience that you understand who they are but if you don't then you have to keep it to a common denominator.
yeah and that's about wordsmith, choosing the right words for the for the appropriate to the audience and of course jargon the industry jargon erm is the thing you've got to watch.
okay so that's about paralinguistics about the way we use the voice in a presentation and the way we chose the words so that we have effective communication with our audience.
okay.
now was it tony who said about body language yep?
yep
now, body language if we move on to that.
if you read books on body language then erm that says erm i'm not quite sure what i'm talking about yes, i'm not being truthful and that means that that i'm really not being really very sincere or again i'm unsure.
but what could it also mean?
itchy ear
you've got an itchy ear or an itchy chin absolutely yeah.
that it exactly that.
so body language if you read a lot of the books on body language it takes one single action and it interprets it based on that.
now if we take it just one step further, there was a lady well there still is a lady called and she did some research, what she was trying to look at was the the sort of body language if you like the actions that people er use and associate that to their personality and she looked particularly at people who were open positive communicators truthful i suppose but people who were open communicators and looked at the sort of things they did and also at people who perhaps weren't quite so honest and open and truthful.
and she didn't take individual actions what she took was what she called clusters.
clusters of actions so she looked at things like the use of the hands the use of the feet the use of the eyes erm and what she called the centre line.
the body's centre line and she equated that and what she said was in terms of the hands that people who were open and positive communicators used on average more symmetrical open palm gestures than individual or closed palm gestures non-symmetrical.
and if you look at there are certain er types of people in history who use very non-symmetrical hand gestures who perhaps you might say were not the most open communicators in the world
and if you take a film of of erm hitler and er people of that ilk in the second world war and you analyse almost frame by frame you'll see that and count the number of non-symmetrical hand gestures you will find that they're quite high as a percentage.
now i'm not saying that we stand here and all we do is that because when you want to emphasise a point then sometimes a a single non-symmetrical a single hand gesture is more appropriate.
but on average you will find er and you look at people in the pub you look in the bar tonight at the people having conversations and see how many symmetrical hand gestures there are.
it's quite interesting.
what i'm talking about here are not things that are unnatural but things that er will come naturally as you relax into your presentation.
are you suggesting that 
absolutely, and you will find when we look on the video the number of people who held up a piece of paper if you hold things up and i'm holding this now because i'm about to write but if if you stand here and hold a piece of paper then it's very difficult to make symmetrical palm gestures, open palm gestures.
so that is one thing as i develop this theme you'll you'll see.
so of course the next question comes well well how do you manage to put it down, i guess?hands we'll come on to that.
okay?
now another thing as i said that she looked at in terms of clusters was the centre line.
now ladies and gentlemen we all know that there are certain parts of the body that it is quite natural that we like to protect
such as a direct free kick.
erm and and ladies perhaps would tend to do the same sort of thing.
now what that does of course is close off the centre line and what found was that people who were positive communicators as they spoke to somebody they presented the centre line to them.
now if i'm presenting my centre line to tony and speaking to him that feels fine yeah, but if i talk to you dave over my shoulder like that i mean how does that feel?
talk to you and tell you something you know
it feels as though i don't care
lack of interest
lack of interest that's right.
so presenting the centre line and okay we're going to come on to the eye contact as well in a moment, presenting the centre line with eye contact means that it feels much more positive for the audience in terms of the delivery.
so the centre line is an is an important aspect of now if you're holding your notes yeah i i mean that's not a very open sort of centre line is it because i've got this as a barrier.
in a way this standing behind and it's unfortunate we have to have something as big as this table er and if i stand behind it then you know gordon's not getting my full centre line yep.
so standing behind a barrier is another thing.
the third aspect the third aspect that er noticed was movement of the feet whilst in this sort of a situation.
in any communication and mike used that term and this is what this is about in communication there is a gap it doesn't matter whether it's you know writing a letter making a phone call or just standing this sort of distance away.
there's a gap over which these words have to flow.
yes, there's a gap in this communication.
now if i stood here all the time for two days and presented to you just standing here do your eyes move have to move if you're watching me all the time your eyes are fixed aren't they in one position?
yeah and the problem is that that because you have to look in one position it means that that the whole thing becomes boring and and your interest starts to drift.
but if i'm moving around slightly like this and you're having to follow with your eyes as i'm making my presentation it brings variety to it brings that bit of variety like you said earlier that it brings some interest to it.
so just just small movements of the feet i'm not talking well there's a classic one i had when i was at college we had a lecturer imagine a big lecture theatre you know two hundred people and there was there was a board and he presented his lecture like this,plenty of foot movement but he presented his lecture like and he just walked up and down.
well i mean what do you end up doing if somebody makes a presentation like that.
give up watching
you either give up watching or you keep a score don't you, yeah?
how many times he's gonna walk in the next minute you know let's time.
you don't listen to what he's saying because you know just it just becomes so it takes your attention away.
but but small movement a little bit of movement around and some people did as we'll see when we look at the video this afternoon, but some people you know grew roots er it becomes that way.
again it's part of the nervousness yeah i'm gonna put me notes down there and i'm not gonna hold them i you know i don't want to be anywhere away from them so it's all tied up with the preparation as well.
but some movement of the feet er is important to keep variety .
so that's what er worked on connection between the cluster of movements and sort of advanced body language if you like and the personality so someone who is perceived as using ja symmetrical palm gestures and open centre line and some movement in the feet is seen more as a as a positive communicator, a more open communicator, and it enhances the quality of the presentation.
now there was one other thing that was mentioned.
the third aspect was contact with the audience, yeah.
audience contact.
why is it important to have audience contact in your presentation?
just to make sure that they think that you're talking to them
absolutely, so they feel involved don't they?
they feel involved as part of the presentation.
that helps the audience feel involved but what does it do for you as a presenter?
what can it do?
helps you get your point across
yes indeed it also gives you some
gauge the reaction
yeah gauge the reaction some feedback.
gauge people's reaction you know as i said to you earlier are you with that mike because of all i had contact and i thought i saw you 
i dropped off
and you dropped off, well that that is the other important thing isn't it because part of the feedback is you know am i interesting everybody you know?
are they with me on this or am i boring the pants off them yeah?
and you may then want to adjust the presentation.
so audience contact.
what's the what's the primary method of of getting contact with the audience?
well the method
eyes
looking at them
yeah using the eyes, yeah, okay.
both to to to feel to make them feel involved and to er gauge the reaction gauge how things are going so you can er get some feedback on how you're doing.
okay
you need to keep their interest don't you?
oh absolutely, yes, i mean i mean
the effect 
sure erm no amount of audience contact will compensate for a boring subject.
yeah, oh yes i erm erm i'm not saying that and that's when we come on to the the design and the content that we put in.
yeah, you're absolutely right very important point yeah no amount of eye contact is going to compensate for something that that doesn't hold their interest.
okay.
what else then what other methods do we have besides having eye contact what else might we do to involve the audience to make them feel involved?
questions
yes, absolutely so questions er a very definite way of involving the audience and again it gives a measure of feedback doesn't it because if you get the right answer you know that they are with you and you know they are understanding what you have to say.
but obviously if there's some hesitation over it then perhaps you just need to step back a stage in what you're saying and er er go over it again to for clarity, and tony what's another way of involving the audience?
well you've got to get them to participate but i suppose you would do if you question them
well yes i guess you would.
jeff what's another way that you might make the audience feel that they're involved?
mike
well yes okay that's a possibility and that's something that we'll come on to tomorrow.
but in terms of audience contact, sarah
jokes 
well yeah yeah a bit of humour a bit of humour
smile at them
smile at them well yeah okay.
bob, another way of involving the audience making them feel part of it
ask them to relate their experiences
yes okay but that in a way comes under questions doesn't it yes.
ask them 
yes 
look directly at them
well yeah that's eye contact
well well done thank you
i got it with the fourth one 
yeah that's right that's right you were just waiting for me to say tom weren't you yes yes that's fine.
and some of you some of you did that this morning although you may not have realised it er but you said well well like rob said and er just just making people feel part of it by by using their names and that's exactly the purpose of having these plaques in front and why i asked you to to use erm to put your name on them is so that we can do that.
so that we can use people's names as part of the presentation and yeah yeah you know he actually noticed what i said and that sort of thing.
so they feel really part of er part of it.
sometimes i've er okay so it seems like it seems like a terrific amount to think about while you're standing here doesn't it as well as thinking about what you're actually the content of what you're actually going to say.
but a lot of these things come quite naturally er i hope we'll see on when we look at the video that really i don't think anybody had a major problem with the voice er and the words as well when you're talking about two million pounds so in terms of the voice i don't believe anybody has any major problems.
there may be one or two when we might just say well perhaps just a little bit more volume but it's not perhaps just er slacken off on the pace a little bit.
so i don't think in terms of paralinguistics anybody here has a major problem.
but when we come to look at the cluster and the and the audience contact then then you know we may see something a little bit different, okay but er those are the important aspects things like things like whoops the use of the hands you know several people put their hands in their pockets or put them behind their back or something like that.
now that is you know what do you do with these things i mean they're a nuisance when it comes to making a presentation.
the secret i find and you may over the next day or day and a half to a couple of days you may well see me just do that occasionally i'll just throw my hands back down to me side.
if they get in if they start getting in the way the best thing to do is just let them relax to the side and try and forget about them, i know it's difficult to forget about them but just to the conscious effort with the hands is just to put them at the side.
then as you start to make the point you'll find your hands will come up naturally and bend from the elbows it sounds crazy to say but if if you suddenly go coo i've got everything in me pocket but 
just do that that, that's what i find is the best thing to do and then carry on with what you have to say and then the gestures become quite natural because all of this this is is not i'm not trying to
six pairs of opposites and then expanded by okay now that that's fine but how do you move on and where do you move on to in order to get that structured thought pattern?
if you're going to come and stand and present something to somebody there's got to be a reason for it?
yes, there must be be a reason and as i'm sure, i mean like like the objective, and then what you can do at this stage in the design process is once you've got the objective then you select those themes or ideas from your what you've done just now to support that objective, so that when you come up my objective is to convince you or my objective is to inform you then the information that you're going to give out supports that objective.
so one thing that was mentioned this morning was somebody wanted to be able to be more persuasive in order to put a point of view across.
if you can clearly state what your objective is what you're trying to persuade the audience to then everything you say supports that and you stand a better chance of being persuasive.
yes?
it seems fairly obvious, so what do we do?
well we've got to select a number of themes to support a given objective.
how many themes do we select?
so what you've got there is a mass of you've got six twelve words on the first circle and then you've got twenty four words on the outer circle are you gonna dump all that information on to the audience to try and persuade them of your objective?
there's only so much that anybody's brain can handle at any one time so let's just do a little experiment because there was a chap called george miller an american psychologist who worked on this idea of what is the capacity of the brain, how many bits of information can the brain hold on to at any given time.
if you turn to page eight what's that john?
i'm useless at this,
i know what's coming.
you you know what's coming.
george miller called this the span of conception.
the capacity of the brain to conceive or hold on to any information.
you'll see there we've got three boxed a six number a ten number and a twelve number.
what i'm gonna do is just speak out a six digit number.
what i want you to do is try and hold on to it in your brain then when i've finished write it down in the appropriate box and see if you can hold on to it long enough to do that.
so the first number, listen to this the first number and try and hold on to it.
three eight one five six two.
just write that down.
. okay?
let's try and ten digit number then.
listen to ten digits try to hold on to them and then write them down.
seven, four, two, nine, eight, one, three, four, seven, six.
i've gone wrong 
okay, try a twelve digit, just for the experiment.
try and hold on to twelve numbers, here we go.
listen to these.
nine, o, five, one, six, two, four, seven, three, eight, two, seven.
. now that's it's interesting what joanne said that you you lost it in the middle somewhere, yeah?
i mean er let's just read them just see how you got on.
three, eight, one, five, six, two.
okay, seven, four, two, nine, eight, one, three, four, seven, six.
i've got the mixed up 
yeah and nine, o, five, one, six, two, four, seven, three, eight, two, seven
say that one again
nine, o, five,one, six, two, four, seven, three , eight, two, seven.
nearly got it .
so but i mean where was it.
was it generally in the middle or at one end or
the first, the first two numbers
yeah okay
after the first five numbers
that's it because what you well you either hold on to the first five or six and then you lose the rest or sometimes you remember the beginning and the end and you lose the bit in the middle, ah.
it's like that game that they used to play on crackerjack for those of you old enough to remember crackerjack
crackerjack
crackerjack
pencils, yeah, erm that's .
a cabbage.
there was a game wasn't there that they played
cabbage
so long as you got the question wrong you got a cabbage if you got it right you got a prize
right that's right
and that's what the brain's like, you've got to try and hold on to 
cabbages
all these cabbages yeah.
you've got to try and hold on to so much information that something eventually has to drop.
because some people do get the ten and some people can get to twelve but guess how they do it.
they chunk it up into pairs or groups of three or something like that so four groups of three or two groups of six or whatever, because what miller actually found was the span of conception was and is seven plus or minus two.
people can hold on to seven plus or minus two bits of information and the plus or minus two he called the local factors which are you know whether it's warm out whether you feel warm or cold or whether or what time of day it is have you just had a heavy lunch whatever it might be.
something that effects even the time of the year all sorts of things.
so the maximum is nine that people can hold on to and the thing about nine of course is it splits up into three threes and that's why i say some people will group a twelve number into four threes or something like that or three fours because they're all well within this span of conception.
so as it says at the bottom of page eight there's a golden rule for presenting is use three themes.
okay?
so the number of themes you use to support your objective is three and then for each of those themes you divide it into three subthemes.
remember what i did there i got three themes and for each one i got three subthemes so that what you put over to them to the audience are those three themes.
they're able to hold on to that for the duration of the talk and be able to understand them as concepts and therefore it helps to put over the ideas.
so we'll have a coffee break and then what i want you to do when you come back is i'll give you an objective for the talk that you're going to give based on that you've just done and then i want you to select three themes and three sub-themes that will support the objective that you'll then be able to use.
okay?
right
start again
yes.
the aldershot method
it goes under the nice little saying tell them what you're going to tell them then tell them and then tell them what you've told them.
now you think about news at ten, bong, you get the headlines
yeah
and you get the headlines, and so it prepares you it emotionally prepares you for what's coming.
give you headlines and then they start and they go they expand on each headline, don't they?
and then at the end they give you the headlines again, they summarise it.
absolutely, and it does because it a it what dave says it's an emotional whole and you start off and you come back to where you started.
it's a whole a complete, and so it it emotionally prepares with the headlines, tell them what you're gonna tell them then you tell them it and then it satisfies them by coming back to where you started.
so in other words it's about an introduction an expansion and an end now as i've said tomorrow i'll fill in a bit more detail on those so if you leave some some gaps there between those three sections.
so an introduction
do you remember what i said about the the er structured thought pattern you've now got in front of you, let me go to mine which is all blank.
the introduction is good afternoon ladies and gentlemen my name is i'd like to talk to you about flying and i hope to persuade you to come along on saturday and take part in some flying.
and i'm going to talk to you about three things about the safety of flying, about the cost aspects of flying and the enjoyment that you're going to get out of it when you take part.
and that's my introduction, i've told you what i'm gonna tell you.
and then expand on it, and so i go into each of these and i go to the and i say a few words about each of these particular themes.
i won't go all through that again.
and when i've expanded and i've told you then i then come back to my ending and i say, okay so what i've done i've told you about three aspects of flying, about the safety of it,ab about the costs involved in taking part in flying and about the enjoyment you're gonna get out of flying and i hope that i've persuaded you that you will come along on saturday to take part, and that's the ending.
so it's use the red obviously the title and the red's for your introduction to say what you're going to say then say it by using your greens and then say what you've said by going back to the red and coming back to your objective.
now coming back to the objective i say it leaves you on a high note then rather than the and that's all i'm gonna say tell them what you're gonna tell them then tell them then tell them what you've told them.
okay?
so that in a nutshell is is what it's about.
so you've all got your structured thought pattern now, yeah?
yeah
right, erm three minutes again so you can spot your timing now, it's under a minute on each of those red things because you've got your introduction and your ending as well, okay?
so three minutes, set the clock again as you did before and er one other thing i'd like you to do is as you come up is do something that athletes do huh and that is to er give an affirmation.
now you may see athletes you know when you see the olympics there's the the lady with er erm
javelin
javelin, thank you, there's the lady with the javelin
then you see or somebody you know looking at the long jump and they're muttering away to themselves.
well there're not normally saying will you get out the way before i throw this thing or i'll stab you with it.
what they're actually doing is they're affirming to themselves they're verbalising the performance improvement or the performance they're going to give.
remember i asked you this morning to just just after lunch to jot down what it was that you need to improve on just as you're setting the clock just say something like by the end of this talk i'd like you to congratulate me on having moved around a bit more having not put me hands in me pockets, whatever it might be.
yeah so just an aff an affirmation of of what you intended.
okay morning everybody
morning
let's a what are we going to be doing today then as dave's already observed because he's seen my notes it's going to be a very full day er so we need to crack on.
what i'd like to do first of all is just to summarise wha what we did yesterday.
just very quickly summarise that and what i'd like you to do is take notes in the new form that we've got now with er a thought pattern so if you,
morning okay
excuse me
okay we've only barely started if you take a a fresh piece of paper then, a fresh sheet of paper and and er the orientation that you now know we need to do if we're going to do if we're going to do a thought pattern
this morning
tom, we're jus just gonna summarise what we did yesterday by means of a a thought pattern.
so if in the middle of the page you write day one let's just summarise er what we did yesterday.
well it was twenty three hours i was going to say twenty four hours ago, but twenty three hours.
we started off with er some introductions and er the introductions, you introduced yourself and we discussed the the objectives that the company have and also the objectives that you have for the course.
the objectives give us a way of er measuring at the end of the course whether the course has achieved for you what you wanted from we'll come back as i said to those this afternoon and and just review them to see that you got out of the course what you.
okay having done that we discussed what the content of the course was going to be and then i asked you to make a first presentation.
pres presentation one and it was to last three minutes and the subject was what would i do if i won two million pounds and we recorded that er on the c c t v for later playback.
having done that we then talked about the problem that we all have on these sorts of occasions which is the problem of nerves and we talked about the symptoms of dry voice and the shaking limbs the the wonky voice and the reasons why we have er these nerves and we also talked about the causes of the the primitive instinct of fight or flight er how we get get our body ready to handle this unusual situation.
and we we discussed the the difference between anxiety and arousal and how we can turn our anxiety into arousal to ensure performance and i plotted a little graph if you remember.
of performance against arousal levels and we agreed that the the purpose of training like this and also putting these principles into practice is to be able to handle more and more arousal er more and more nerves and still and still be able to perform in a confident manner.
we then talked about the first of those two towers of tower bridge if you remember which was about the skills that we need for er delivery.
what are the skills that we need when we stand up in front of people to actually deliver what we have to say
and there were three aspects we looked at i wonder why it was three?
i wonder why it was three?
erm three aspects, first of all there was that little word i gave you er to describe pa 
paralinguistics
thank you the voice and and the words that we said paralinguistic is correct.
the study of the voice what we say and how we say it i then introduced you to if you like advanced body language and based on the work that marion north did and rather than take an individual movement of the body we took a cluster and how many aspects where there to cluster i wonder there were three weren't there.
hands, feet centre level.
okay so paralinguistics, the cluster and the other one was the need for audience contact.
the way we get feedback from the audience the way we ensure that we involve the audience as well through the use of the eyes the names er and asking questions.
and then we had the moment that a lot of you er weren't looking forward to which was playing the video back, yes.
and this gave you an opportunity to see yourself to see others and to take part in some coaching something that we did again yesterday and we shall be doing again today we then talked about the the design aspect first of all we talked about er the way the brain is involved in this communication and some of the aspects of the brain.
so the brain we talked about the two hemispheres the left and the right hemisphere the fact that the left is very much involved in a a linear way whereas the right is involved in spatial way, anybody remember the relative contribution of the two halves?
yeah ten for the left and ninety for the right and the reason we talked about this and the way that's involved in communication is that we said well if there's a lot more power or a lot more contribution to the design of what we're doing of a spatial nature and that is how the the audience's brain work more powerfully in the spatial nature let's present what we have let's design it and then deliver it as close to a spatial nature as we can okay.
that was the purpose of talking about about the brain and the two the two aspects of it.
and of course the left brain is very much involved in the words the right brain with the ideas, so that's the creative side.
okay then we used this er in a way that we're using it right now to er produce our design for what we were going to say through thought patterns.
now nice abbreviation for thought patterns is thop t h o p when we talk about thought patterns or thops a method of gathering ideas a meth a method of getting things down on paper so we don't lose them but not in a linear way in a spatial way a right brain activity.
and what we did we created a framework first of all with six pairs of opposites pairs of opposites and er if you remember this happened in a fairly slow and methodical way very much a left brain activity saying well okay is this a valid pair of opposites to do with that.
so that was that was a very much a left brain activity.
we then moved on and expanded we expanded we brought with with a minimum of two words to do with each of those twelve words that we generated and we did this in a much faster way a much more creative way a right brain activity.
when i say a right brain of course it doesn't mean that the left brain's just shut down completely but it's predominantly a a right brain activity it's the the creative part.
and then we use this method to then go a stage further to prepare for the second presentation.
so i gave you a topic sport or a hobby or an interest that you had and you produced a thought pattern for that just as we'd done in the practice one with the subject of water, but then we moved on a stage further to get what are called a structured thought pattern.
structured thought which had as its main attributes three themes of course before you had that you had to have a clear objective which helped you to choose what those three themes were, and why why did we choose three as a based on
yeah
yeah, yes verbally yes if we're writing we'd actually be six but it was it was the span of conception wasn't it the capacity of the brain the span of conception says that if you deliver your presentation in groups of three in three themes and three subthemes then the audience is able to hold on to that and the way in which we set up the delivery or the way in which we delivered the structured thought pattern was through method
aldershot
aldershot method yeah which goes under the little the little rhyme words can anybody remember
that's it that's it as dave described it it's an emotional whole it's it's er satisfying er to the listener.
it's complete in itself and er people by human nature like things to be complete or whole it is it is emotionally satisfying.
so basically that was er an introduction an expansion and an ending.
the aldershot method.
got through quite a bit yesterday didn't we?
quite a bit there er when you lay it out like that in a pattern a thought pattern which shows just how much er we did actually get through er from where you started at ten in the morning or just after with the presentation right through to the second presentation.
there were a lot a lot involved there er and some of you actually found that that there was quite a lot that you really had to almost worry about and think about and and er yesterday for the first time of doing it with this this new method it does take quite a bit of thinking about and as we agreed practice is is what's what's important..
incidentally everything i'm i'm doing here whoops everything i'm doing here with you all the two days here is in thought patterns.
so it does get used ha ha in a practical way.
it would be very strange if i stood here saying don't use a linear script use thought patterns and yet i was reading everything off a linear script wouldn't it?
you sort of wouldn't really believe that er i was serious about it.
okay right what i'd like you to then select red on your pen.
now in a way what you could say what we have here is a trunk of a tree and the branches and then the leaves and the fruit at different levels on this .
what i'd like you to do is put put a rectangle round three words, it doesn't matter where they are on on the whole thought pattern, three words that are the highlights what were the three things that were the highlights or the most important thing for you yesterday.
for instance i might go erm that one that one and er that one.
okay just a rectangle round three three er things that were the highlights for you yesterday the most important things that er came through to you yesterday.
so he knows what's coming 
the eyes don't ya.
some a lot of you said yesterday that you don't always get in this formal situation having to stand up in front of people.
but what if you have sort of meetings one to one or even even in three or fours.
so you know when you get in a meeting sometimes you've got a point of view on an agenda item and you think how where am i gonna get support for for my point of view on the meeting?
or you know you're in a meeting and the chairman what's your opinion john on this where you what do you think about this?
a good way of doing it is the aldershot method, how to your put your point across very very clearly but also succinctly you know short and to the point.
so if somebody said to me what what were the highlights for you yesterday, aldershot method tell them what you tell them just list them.
so what are the three important things for me yesterday were the aldershot method the arousal curve and the need for audience contact so i told them what i'm gonna tell them.
now i tell them why if you're gonna tell somebody why why your opinion is something the word because is bound to come into the sentence soon.
so i've said i've listed them well the important points for me were the aldershot method the arousal curve and the need for audience content.
the aldershot method was particularly important for me because i realised that it's something we use every day or we see every day er and it emotionally prepares the audience the listener for what i'm going to say.
tell them what you're going to tell them before you tell them, and then summarise it at the end and tell them what you told them.
it's emotionally satisfying it's a very important method to get a point across.
the need for arousal thought well should i be absolutely calm when i'm giving a presentation but i never am so is it right and now understanding that you need a certain level of arousal to be able to perform at all is is satisfying for me because at least i understand the situation now and able to work with it rather than against it .
and audience content when you're making a presentation i feel that's very important because you need to have feedback as to how well things are going.
if you don't look people in the eye if you don't involve them then they're not with you and if the audience aren't with you then the presentation doesn't .
so for me the three points were the aldershot method er the importance of understanding arousal and the need for audience contact.
do you see the aldershot method there you list then expand on each one saying why and then just summarise by listing again.
yep.
so can we try that just to from a seated position not from from up the front.
the best thing to do because having said that then i might say mike what's your opinion what was important to you and and pass it on?
so obviously if mike's been chosen once or he's done it he doesn't want somebody asking him again.
so just jot down at the side of the page the other eleven names in the room okay everybody's tony, mike, jeff, sarah, bob, rob, gordon, john, tom, joanne, mike dave.
just jot the other people's names down and then obviously when they've been they've said their piece just strike their name through so you don't go and .
tony, mike, jeff, sarah, bob, rob, gordon, john, tom, joanne, mike, dave.
you should have eleven names down there are you alright can you see where have you got to rob 
rob yeah gordon, rob, gordon john joanne mike and dave
okay right let's the meeting.
so you've you've got your three points so remember the er the aldershot just list what they are then expand briefly on them then list them again and then invite somebody else to to give their er their opinions.
okay?
morning everybody erm the three points that were important for me yesterday were the aldershot method the the arousal curve and the need for audience contact.
i particularly found the aldershot method important because what it gives you is a clear structure to what you have to say when you stand up if you're going to introduce by saying what you're going to say before you expand and then at the end summarise and bring it all back to a nice conclusion.
it actually gives you a framework on which to to base any any few words or any talk that you you have to give.
arousal curve well understanding the need for arousal for me helped because i now understand that having nerves while you're speaking is not unnatural it isn't something that you're able to get rid of but you need to be able to work with it and practice to improve performance.
and the need for audience contact i found particularly important because if you get feedback from the audience looking them in the eye involving them then you're able to know how your talk is progressing and whether you need to modify it in any way to be able to maintain the audience's interest.
so in summary the three points for me were the aldershot method the arousal curve and the need for audience contact.
bob what did you find yesterday?
the cluster i found particularly er important and so like yourself the aldershot method and structured thought patterns er the cluster was important er because as you say when people have got nerves they need to get some basic guidelines for overcoming the problem er we all tend to put our hands in our pockets and stand rooted to the spot and all the rest of it but there are ways of overcoming it, it's just a matter of practice erm the aldershot method is er obviously a very effective method erm if you get into the habit of doing it in threes er erm you see every day you use the news at ten news at ten analogy obviously
obviously identifiable it's a very effective one and also the structured thought patterns idea er before you go into something to actually sit down and prepare something er your thoughts in a developing from there er it's a very simple thing to do but very effective.
those are the three things the aldershot sorry the cluster the aldershot method and structured thought patterns yesterday 
you were looking at me i knew you were going to say that
again the three things that came out for me yesterday were the structured thought patterns obviously the arousal and the need for audience contact.
i found the erm structured thought patterns and the span of conception is very interesting in the fact that you do things in threes and obviously that gives a certain logic net to everything that you do and the way that you prepare your presentation .
the arousal i've always thought that er that you shouldn't be nervous but you always are but obviously as you're nervous when you do a whole host of things and nerves as you become more skilled at it go away er and i'd assume that like most things that the nerves will totally disappear and was somewhat surprised to find out that you're always aroused
that's right
when when you do that, and obviously the need to gauge the erm presentation against audience contact to see that they're involved and they're obviously understanding what you're saying and pick them up and grab them.
so for me the three things were the structured thought patterns plus the arousal and the need for audience contact.
what did you think sarah?
i found the three most important things for me yesterday were the span of conception the clusters and the whole subject of nerves.
the span of conception useful to gather that three is the best number and dividing it up into threes and threes again was simplest and effective way of setting it up.
clusters and nerves well again i always felt that nerves were supposed to go away when you got good at things, now i'm pleased to discover that isn't true.
i also found that the clusters was useful for we all said guidelines
what to do when you stand up there like an idiot so to sum up that the three most important things the span of conception nerves and clusters.
erm from yesterday er i think meself personally i'm very methodical sort of person and i felt what was most important the revelations meself was thought patterns and the use of most structured structured in a presentation and also the importance i couldn't believe how that using them made such a difference actually to yourself when you're standing there and the audience participation erm thought patterns well i've always used that was just a revelation i mean i've never
thought it could be so easy to put me thoughts on a piece of paper could help me so much i think that's what i thought patterns structured 
well yesterday the three things that i felt that were most useful to me was one the delivery two the coaching and the thought patterns.
erm thought patterns being actually understanding laying it out and seeing the way it works which obviously structured thought patterns but it's the basis of and grasping erm actually delivering it your delivery erm of it using the cluster but the coaching was invaluable, it was constructive criticism we all know what was wrong and it it just helped yesterday for someone not to be coaching just to help you through it erm and i think all those three things became invaluable really mean because most of those leads on to the other ones structured erm so the sort of thought patterns the coaching and the was very good 
well, things that i learnt yesterday was erm aldershot method the structured thought patterns and the coaching erm the aldershot method is tremendous i liked that a lot for expansion editing summarising and first class and i will use it from now on.
erm the aldershot method works or appears to work very well with structured thoughts the two merge together very well and erm again that's the putting down on paper i didn't believe that had actually talk at all and yet it works and as you read it things come into the brain and when you combined all that with the coaching and you can see what you're doing wrong the rest of it.
again that's excellent but it's also also to see yourself video
erm and realise that no you don't sound quite as bad as you think you might.
so the three things that really got me yesterday was the aldershot method the structured thoughts and the coaching they all went together very well and rob let's see what he thinks
well the three things that er were most significant for me yesterday were the cluster the thought patterns and the aldershot method.
erm the cluster makes you realise how you presented things to people what you can improve them having things in your hand that it it just makes you erm more nervous because you're fumbling about what makes me more nervous you're fumbling about with something trying to to do something that you don't really need to do.
erm moving around er feet movement i didn't quite master that yesterday but it it's something that er i know that will come with time and er it'll it'll all come together.
the thought patterns like joanne and others the the concept of putting a little circle down and one word in it and expanding that out and being able to stand around and talk erm for three minutes or ten minutes or whatever for a significant amount of time erm that that was also a revelation to me.
and along along with that erm the aldershot method erm an introduction and expansion and an ending all on the same subject erm makes it a nice concise er little parcel erm for you to talk through.
so the end the three things for me yesterday cluster, thought patterns and the aldershot method 
thank you very much
well for me exactly the same as bob sorry robert, the aldershot method plus er the thought processes.
the aldershot method because er it it sort of explained to me the most effect way of getting across whatever you want to say so that made me a feel a bit happier about that.
it also made me think that perhaps i had more control over the whole presentation generally which is my biggest concern so get up there and just do some and therefore it's going to go on to the confidence side of it.
the cluster erm i was always very aware of this bit so it made me you know aware that there are things you can do and watching everybody just seemed just the answer inside you.
it didn't look er odd it looked okay so that would make me a bit more confident i think a bit less self conscious.
but the most important thing i thought was the thought process i mean just just saying this while you were just going on i just jotted down in the same way you could come off with three ideas that around and i felt that was that was ideal.
it keeps the your your presentation and it stops those pregnant er pauses you know suddenly you realise christ i've forgotten lost the thing.
so for me aldershot method, cluster but most important was the thought patterns.
gordon 
er yes there the three things i got out of erm yesterday's course was the thought patterns the aldershot method and the delivery.
the thought patterns allow me to erm put down what i wanted to talk about, expand on it and at the same time break it down into areas and on the other and spend some time on each area.
the aldershot method erm because it showing you how you broke that subject down allows you to erm introduce it expand on it and summarise at the end.
er the delivery part it was more the cluster but the overall delivery allowed me to prepare how i was going to be standing er how to get the audience in contact with me the eye the eye contact and also the way i spoke.
so to summarise the thought patterns the aldershot method jeff
the three things that came out of yesterday for meself were the the aldershot method the delivery .
the aldershot principally because it gave a structure to what i had to say at least went up there fairly confident of what i had .
the delivery because it gave me what i had to think about when i was up there language body language and then the playbacks i could look at the two things that mike just highlighted as one and two.
the aldershot method the structure of what i said and the way the delivery had come across.
the feedback gave me a review of those questions.
so out of yesterday it was how to put the structure together as the delivery of how it came across and what the audience's reaction was to it.
morning ladies and gentlemen
carry on mike and then to john
good morning ladies and gentlemen the three main items i got out of yesterday was the er structured thought patterns the cluster and the playback
the structured thought patterns i found that the most important because when i was up at the table on the second presentation i was able to have my thoughts relating to the layout already and with in fact just the single element of the subject shown on my paper i could immediately focus on that and in fact give the details of that right the way through.
on the cluster erm not having in fact had any erm work on this type of thing before i didn't realise that holding a paper could close you down and in fact without moving my feet i wasn't getting movement i was just static and with no use of the hands you were to express yourself sufficiently.
with the playback that in fact erm as has said it showed me what in fact i was doing right and wrong, erm i've been on television before once when i was running the london marathon but this time it was actually me and me alone in a work element and i could in fact see what i was doing and why i was doing it and understand in fact the corrections from the morning to in fact the afternoon presentation when i came back for the second one.
so the main elements for me were the thought process the cluster and the playback.
now let's 
john
john
erm the three things i i er got most out of yesterday were the structured thought patterns, playback and the audience contact.
the structured the structured thought patterns gave me an actual er organisation to my talk be it only just a few words on a piece of paper it was simple yet er gave the organisation to the actual talk while you stood up in front of an audience.
er the audience contact when you were actually stood up in the front and you're there on your own just getting a little bit of feedback from the audience itself er does help and then the playback which erm i think it helped a lot to see how you faired particularly on that fir first attempt what areas you had to concentrate on to rectify your problems.
so in summary the three main things i got out of yesterday were the structured thought patterns the playback and the audience contact.
great thank you all very much indeed.
so i hope you see, that this aldershot method which several people have mentioned is is a very effective way of structuring what you do here it can also be used very simply in in a meeting just to be able to put your point across simply but effectively.
so that's another situation and as we'll talk about and i hinted at yesterday er the dreaded vote of thanks situation and the the er giving of the gold watch and er and the being a best man at a wedding or even a bride or groom at a wedding er again is a is a way of helping this aldershot method is a way of helping you to to get your thoughts together and put them across effectively.
so what else are we going to do today then.
two things i want to just touch on er fairly briefly er because of the time factor but i do want to touch on before you get into continuing with your er development for your third presentation.
er the questions of how to handle questions and also the use of visual aids.
let's do them the other way round let's talk first of all about the visual aids.
why do we why do we use visual aids like the overhead projector and the flip chart why do we use the things at all?
about ninety per cent 
it is it is in a way isn't it well very much so not just in a way it's very much because we have what's that saying we say a picture is paints a thousand words yeah?
if we can put something pictorially it saves probably half an hour's explanation doesn't it if you don't have that so very much er the use of the right brain getting the point across visually er gets it across er much more quickly.
so that's one one benefit of using a visual aid is to is to put a point over er much more quickly.
what others?
going back to the same point again
you could indeed, you could indeed it it reinforces a point doesn't it, so i mean i so went back a few times with the flipchart yesterday with things that we need to re reinforce yes?
jeff you've a lot of experience of doing lecturing what what does it do for you as a presenter?
i've used it to erm to develop the lecture.
i let the audience draw their own thought patterns 
yep
that produces something that then moves on to discussions
right
i call it no notes at all 
right
and they write the lecture for me
they write yeah
they write the lecture as it takes place
yeah 
yes
good preparation
well no there's actually there's a lot of preparation in that isn't there 
well what i do it on is planning
oh yes
and er control of sub contractors then you get a mixed group from tarmac er different companies and their conception of what planning is and conception of what controlling sub contractor is
yeah
is totally different so i did the first lecture with what my idea of to find myself talking to a a contract housing guy whose biggest order was two thousand pounds 
right
so i've have them produce the lecture and then we've gone on from like doing
yep
exactly the thing
right
pick out three things and we'll talk about them
mm, mm
and that's how i use visual aids
so it can actually be a stimulus can't it?
so i then find myself doing nothing else but walking around so i go and ask
right
so it forces me
yes
out into the audience
well that's what you hinted at yesterday as well didn't it?
i mean if if you're here even now you've got your notes down rather than in your hand and and you stand and read but you don't use that or you don't use that then there is that tendency isn't there to?
so the focus of attention switches from people looking at me
yeah, to the visual aid yes
to this to actually looking at what they're producing
right, yes, and that's an important factor that that if you feel everybody's looking at you it is important
attention
it does it moves attention away just takes takes the little bit of the tension off you so you can do that as well.
so it's it appeals to the right brain that visual aspect it can take attention it can actually make the presenter move around when it switches attention what does that do for the audience then?
wakes them up
er absolutely, yeah it keeps the interest going doesn't it?
so it's it's an interest thing as well it keeps the interest it changes the emphasis switches the attention makes a break doesn't it it just changes er er a natural break that happens and it changes attention.
so there's there's lots of reasons to illustrate the point then and another thing of course it does is if it's one you use on here it helps you remember you don't have to have that written down because it's there already produced if it's a pre-prepared acetate as we call as we call it.
so and it can break up a long session it can it can maintain interest.
so two two methods i'm going to talk about really is is the overhead and the flipchart.
you may have caught me doing this some of you may have have noticed that i try to force meself not to and it's something to remember.
if i'm writing something up here and i talk to you while i'm writing up here then what does it do?
it loses impact
it loses impact doesn't it because a the power of the voice is hit against there, b it's very rude to talk while i've got me back to you as well so people yes lose interest.
so while you're writing on the board have one of those pauses.
now again it's oh there's silence in the room but while you're writing what what are the audience doing if you're not speaking?
watching
absolutely they're reading it with you so they're with you so you're you're holding their interest even though you're not actually saying anything, yeah, and again you may you may have noticed well another thing is once you've once you're written put the pen down and the easiest thing in the world to have a but if you want to make a point and you probably noticed once i once i put the red lines around the red boxes round there and i gave you the first demonstration of the aldershot method i stood here okay.
now if i want to write something i can just turn like that and i'm not turning me back away.
okay if you're left handed then then i guess you're probably gonna feel more comfortable that way round erm but while you're using this and while you're making a point about what you've written just just stand to the side of it i usually put me hand up have done there just make the points to be made, yes.
so that's that's the way to use that is not to talk to it but to have a silence while you're writing er and then to stand at the side while you making the points that are that are associated with what you've written up.
i would recommend for any talk that you give that you don't use more than two types of visual aid.
i know we used the video but that was for a very specific reason but if you know have you ever been to one of those lectures where there's there's overheads going on here and then they go and they write on there and they you have some slides and then you have a video and then you know it's like being at wimbledon.
er if you stick to just just two as a maximum er ah an overhead and a flipchart or maybe a video and an overhead then it actually doesn't it really helps not to confuse the audience.
that's actually all i want to say about the flipchart unless anybody's any other comments i mean jeff's you've obviously got a lot of experience in a do you feel there's any anything further than that i know i've covered it very briefly.
well the only one that comes back to me is you've got the ability to review
that's right, that's right you can you can
yep, good it has that creative element about it doesn't it because as you say if you get them to produce it get the audience to help produce it then again it's involvement and the whole thing is is erm more spontaneous than than pre-prepared.
i mean if if i'd done that this morning and i'd written it all up before you came in and then said well what we've done is this and then we did that and then we did that but as as it was generated as we discussed then then you were with me i hope at the way it went
it's quite important though to do it fairly neatly
oh indeed indeed and i'm not the neatest writer in the world i will say and erm
i wasn't 
no i know you weren't getting at me
i know i 
that's right
the first time i get up well you see i cheat i have it lightly pencilled in
well that's 
you can do that
that's because that's 
you want to start suddenly you find yourself either 
i have i tell you i've done that before now and then that one ends up right down in the bottom corner
and it's it's
it just it just takes the edge off it so it is a good tip actually it's just if you've time beforehand is just even as you were saying producing a thought pattern like this even just doing the first level just in pencil.
i've actually seen erm er been in a workshop as a participant where a chap who was excellent at this had what he did was while while the participants were doing some sort of an exercise he was actually making these tiny notes up in the top corner for himself so that when he when he came to the next sort of section that he wanted he'd he'd got he'd got the odd notes just up there in the corner.
so again that's something you can do but yes good tips thank you jeff
just doing it in pencil lightly in pencil beforehand
rolf harris does that
yeah he does doesn't he yeah that's right
i don't do it on that, i do it on a big blackboard 
that's right, that's right yeah there is that but 
well the way i do it is i i try and avoid the lecture lecturer
yes,
because i assume the audience knows as much about control and sub contractors as i do
right
but the idea is to to get their ideas so that you can tell somebody else how you do it on your side then you can tell somebody else
yeah
the need, i need to change information
yeah
it brings out some interesting ideas 
i bet it does 
and i the flipchart
yeah
and that's that's the only way it's amazing we ever get any sort of 
right let me just then talk very briefly about this fella.
now we're fortunate with with this that if i turn it on it's very quiet but if any of you had and i'm sure jeff you've probably seen it where you get some older machines and the fan in there rattles like mad and there's nothing worse than having that thing rattling all all the day.
so the first point is if you're going to show something show it, let everybody deal with it let everybody look at it then when you've finished with that turn it off because you want the centre of attention to come back to you, presumably.
even if you've got a series of slides i recommend that you turn it off between each one so that you know the audience don't see the things being put into position or moved about because that can be a bit distracting so er it does mean that you'd obviously need to know where the on off switch is and and this is a nice one because it's it's right there.
now, this this material that we use technically called acetate and the nice thing about is that you can write on with if you get acetate pens so you can freehand to produce sketches, diagrams etcetera.
obviously you can have photocopies or laser prints copied on to this material, but i have here some pens and a box of blank acetates which you will have the opportunity later to use if you so wish.
now we've got a variety of colours there.
we've got two four six eight colour, okay.
if you want to make a point if something's you want to make more emphasis than others then there is a hierarchy to these colours on this transmitted light.
okay this is light being transmitted through these colours and up on to the screen.
so i have a list here now it isn't in the notes so you might just want to make a note of this.
the hierarchy of colours
what's the theory behind that?
it's it's the brain right brain response to colour and it's the response through the eye to the colour.
some things have more they have more emphasis and they appear more important than others.
you'll be interested in some of these colours i i find the order of these quite interesting.
so the hierarchy of colour, i'm going to just kneel down there i hope you can all see.
right at the top of the colours i have here are is purple, i often wonder whether that is the reason why royalty is asso or purple is associated with the royalty, purple robes etcetera.
i don't know interesting.
interesting question.
but of the colours we've got here in this list purple is the one that has the most impact, followed by blue
erm, a number of issues will come through in a moment or two, but first of all can we start this morning's business by calling on the chair of the standing orders committee john , to give report number three.
john.
thank you.
standing orders committee report number three.
settle down colleagues please.
president, congress.
i wish to move a short report on behalf of standing orders committee.
london region have withdrawn motion fifty two, due for debate on wednesday afternoon.
northern region have withdrawn motion eighty two, due for debate on wednesday morning.
the committee has accepted an emergency motion proposed redundancies at a b b transport limited to be moved by midlands and east coast region as emergency motion number three.
we would ask national officers to respect a time limit allowed for their reports.
president, congress, i move this report.
thanks very much indeed john.
conference accept s o c report number three?
agreed, thanks very much.
colleagues i'd just like to put one of er john's themes and that is that for the next couple of days we've got a hell of a lot of business to get through and er we've done quite well so far but er i would certainly be looking where possible colleagues for formally seconding er, as often as possible, if not all the time and i really appreciate your er your assistance in that regard because we have a great deal of business to get through in the next two days.
we can do it, you can do it, i know that and er so if we all act with a bit of restraint, we'll get through.
the other point is i gave you an undertaking yesterday to come back to you on the reschedule of the programme in respect of items that have fell of the agenda during the course of the week.
now what i'm proposing to do is to issue a revised programme in respect of the afternoon session this afternoon, which will take in some of the business that er has has already fell off which would be at the end of the private session this afternoon so we'll try and get in er rule twenty regions in their manage and their management which will take in three motions, thirty six, thirty seven and forty and then we'll turn, hopefully, to the social security payments resolutions, you'll remember that they fell off, composite two eight three, motions three seven nine, three eight five and three eight six.
er, equally colleagues, i intend to try and take er key national officers' report during the course of this morning.
you'll recall that the key fell off the agenda as well, earlier or should i say, wasn't very painful.
should i say the report fell off the agenda.
so that's what, that's the way i'm hoping that we can proceed, as i say, yes with your assistance and then if we can get through that business, then equally tomorrow morning, we'll be doing a similar thing,we we'll issue another revised programme which will er take in some of the outstanding stuff that's fell off.
yes.
president, congress, denise , south western region.
as important as those motions are, we have also missed some very important ones which i think should take priority.
on page six of our agenda there are congress organization motions which clearly need to be discussed some time during this congress because they concern rule amendments, and if they do fall off the agenda because debate is long on the other things, i really do believe they should take priority because we won't be raising them for another three years.
there's also on page ten the motions regarding timing of congress which clearly concerns next year and i do believe that these should have priority.
right i think you have missed the point or may not have understood how we deal with the business of this congress.
nothing at this congress falls off the agenda, nothing.
unlike some union conferences, some business is not taken, but this conference all business is taken.
all business is taken, so that particular, those particular items that you've referred to i am already seeking to schedule that business for tomorrow, but i don't want to preempt the situation and chance my arm any further than what it is, because i could end up falling on my face and i want to try and avoid that.
but i could assure you colleagues that business will be taken, okay?
right thanks very much indeed for that colleagues.
now, it's now my pleasure to welcome on your behalf chris the secretary of portsmouth trades council.
chris has been secretary for trades council for ten years, he's a w e a tutor, that's his er profession, he's an organizer, and he organizes courses throughout hampshire and the isle of wight.
more recently i understand that chris has had er had a very interesting, made a very interesting study of the french trade union movement, that must have been fascinating.
erm, difficult job, difficult part of the world for the trade union movement.
for his sins he's a member of e m e s a, but we won't hold that against him!
just a very warm welcome on behalf of the g m b please address our conference.
thank you dick.
actually the last time i was stood up on a platform and did this was in front of erm a s g t congress in dieppe and i tell you i had to do it in french, and it was much more difficult so i'm hoping this one will go smoothly, but i, what i'd really like to do is begin with is offer you erm delegates and platform both, a very very warm welcome from the trade union movement in portsmouth.
we're absolutely delighted that you're here in portsmouth for your congress and it's very very important to us and i think perhaps i'd take a little bit of time to explain why it's important.
the first thing is erm those of you that know this area will know that it's er not like the rest of hampshire er leaving aside southampton.
it's an industrial city, it's a working class city, it's a city that has been very very hard hit by recession.
the unemployment level is twelve percent and rising.
more worryingly, thirty percent of the jobs in this city are linked to the defence industry and we all know, and i don't need to remind you what's happening to the defence industry, here it's going down very very fast, we are losing jobs out the dockyard, but we're also losing the jobs that are associated with the m o d with the royal navy er and it's extremely worrying for the trade union movement in the city.
it's also a very very poor city in the sense that wages are low.
the history of this is that for many years m o d were unhappy about expansion of the, of the port er, for commercial use and the reason they were unhappy of course was that erm commercial use was competition that they felt would be likely to drive up wages.
at the time, people felt they had secure jobs er in the m o d and the dockyard and so people accepted that with pensions and everything that goes with that sort of secure job, now of course the whole situation is enormously diff different and i was saying to, i have some french people staying with me this morning and i was, they were asking me about wages and i was saying to my daughter who works er on a thursday evening in the local sainsburys, earns more per hour than a friend of mine, well two friends of mine, one of whom is a carpenter, a fully qualified carpenter and the other is a motor mechanic, and that's an indication of the sort of level of wages that people are paid in this area.
so we're, we're particularly pleased that you're here for a slightly mercenary reason actually, because with a thousand delegates coming into the city, it really does boost, even for a week, boosts the local economy and that's very pleasing.
the second reason that, that we're delighted to see you is that as a trades council we have been trying very hard over the last six or seven years to raise the profile of the trade union movement and this has been quite difficult in in during the thatcher years, during the anti-trade union legislation, the onslaught by the media, trade unions er, the profile of trade unions has not been easy to raise.
however we're beginning to make some progress and we're making some progress for a number of reasons.
first of all i think we have worked out the importance of establishing a very good relationship with the media and that's developing and that means that, that the views of the trade union movement are beginning to be heard, er, when we, when we spoke to the editor of the local paper for example, we pointed out that on the business page there's nothing about trade unions and did he think that business er existed without er on, just on one side.
didn't he recognize that trade, the trade union movement had a role to play er in that, in, on that page and to the, to the credit of, of the local press, they had responded and so we are now asked to put forward the views of the trade union movement, something i think which local trades councils should be doing, should be the role of local trades councils to do that effectively.
we've also looked at the needs of our local community, our local trade union movement and one of the things that we're extremely concerned about is health and safety.
er, i mean that's, that's not just here it's everywhere, but one of the things that is very clear is that people often do not have access to the sort of information that they need about hazards.
and so we, we are in the process of setting up an online database computerized which would be accessible by not just branches, but individual erm health and safety reps for a fairly minimal affiliation which will tap into the latest information which will be updated er every three months and we feel that again that's something in conjunction with, clearly with the unions in the city something that a trades council should be doing, something that raises our profile, explains to people what trade councils, what the trade union movement is all about and does it effectively using modern techniques and modern methods.
we're also, now that we have er erm the, the council's actually hung, but now we have the, the labour group largely in control of the direction of what's happening in the city er we've been able to raise some issues that were extremely difficult to raise under the previous tory administration.
one of the things that concerns us is provision for people who are unemployed and we are we are speaking and working, speaking to and working with the labour group and the labour party on establishing a centre for people who are unemployed.
particularly i think to the, to, to, not to provide something that they encounter elsewhere, the hoops they have to go through in order to get benefit, the restart programme, we're not interested in that we're interested in solidarity support, rebuilding confidence,keep keeping unemployed people in contract with the local trade union movement, and that that's something that i personally regard as extremely important and something that, that erm with this partnership of the labour party, the labour group and the trades council and the trade unions in the area, i think we do very effectively.
so we believe that unions should be effective, should be active trades councils should be effective, should be active, should be using modern methods, but without, and i stress this, without losing sight of our traditional concerns and values.
now we're delighted to see you here because we know that the, the g m b shares this view and we know that you've also been in the forefront of introducing technology, er and we know also that having you here er, having your conference here, helps us enormously to continue this process of raising the profile of the trades unions, the trades council, the labour movement in the city.
the amount of press coverage that's been generated this week by your conference has been enormously important to the local trade unions, it's something that we can build on, it's something that says to the local press to the local media trade unions have got something to say trade unions have got something to put forward and it's that's something that we will come back to erm afterwards, after you've gone, we can use that, we can build on it.
the third reason why we're, we're pleased to see you here is that erm as a trades council, we've and this er and dick mentioned this in his introduction, we've initiated a major international programme, major in terms of our size obviously as er as a local body, involving links between union activists here primarily in france er, in northern france, but also links now developing in spain with the new ferry going between portsmouth and bilbao, we're starting to meet with the unions in spain who are interested in speaking about the, the, the differences in wages in terms and conditions working for the same ferry company, doing the same jobs in the port, a comparative look at how the, the wages terms and conditions differ and we want to, we want to go and visit them in the autumn and, and work out, and work on more links on a sector basis, so that our colleagues down in bilbao in northern spain can link up with people in the, in the, in similar sectors here and we've done this over the last three and a half years with the unions in france, we've had exchanges of all sectors, the public sectors, transport, erm, health, social services, shop workers.
it's been enormously successful because we've done it on an activist basis so that activists have met one another, all those prejudices and all those stereotypes have immediately vanished as soon as people have stayed in one another 's homes and realized that people have the same problems, they have the same, they have the same problems and the same difficulty er as difficulties as we do.
maybe their system's organized differently, but fundamentally the problems are the same and that's given our people the confidence that they needed because they've been able to see that people everywhere, it's not just them isolated in, in, you know, tory britain, who are facing these particular difficulties, but issues of privatization for example as the same in france and actually about to get much worse, er but, and, and i think that helped erm our colleagues from france who've also got a perspective on their struggles and their battles we've been able to support one another with information about companies working, multi-national companies working on both sides of the channel.
one example er, a couple of examples erm, we've worked together with the unions in moulinex in northern france who bought swan kettles er which is where the g m b is erm is highly organized and er in those er meetings between the unions in, in moulinex and swan we've been able to see the disparity between the conditions and the wages and be able to speak about ways in which people can go back to their, to their er workplace and work on that with that knowledge.
er we've done the same for renault trucks in northern france and in dunstable, brought, brought the unions together simply through the contacts that we've made here in portsmouth.
erm, so we are particularly pleased to have you here because we know as well that the g m b is in the forefront of erm establishing activity within europe, one of, one of the few unions i think is that the only unions will have an office open in brussels.
er something that is, is inconceivable to me that the, the other unions don't do it because i, i believe it's gonna be enormously important to our trade union movement.
so our, our international work has er been important to us and we are pleased to s to see you here to raise that profile as well.
erm, so finally i should say that above all we are very pleased to see you, we're delighted to have you here.
erm, we hope that you will come back soon, because for all the reasons i've outlined it's tremendously important to us and it's nice to have a body of, a big large body of trade unions in the city in terms of our feelings as, as local trade unions as well.
erm, i the light's, the light's flashing erm
i thought for one hopeful minute you were gonna wind up then.
i am gonna wind up i'm just gonna say if anybody wants some information about our database which is open to anybody in the country, i've left some leaflets there erm, i've been asked to plug trade union news which has been important to us too so i have erm and i finally i'd say thank you very much for inviting me to come and speak to you.
chris thanks very much indeed for that very thoughtful and welcoming address.
i'd like to present on behalf of congress to you a banner bright by john and also a tankard suitably inscribed.
colleagues er back to the agenda, national officers report duncan .
president, congress, duncan national office.
at last year's congress, i outlined the devastating effect that the recession was having on the engineering, shipbuilding and aerospace industries.
i recall the catalogue of redundancies that have been declared in nineteen ninety one nineteen ninety two.
unfortunately that story continues and ninety two ninety three is seeing even more of our colleagues made redundant, not in hundreds but in thousands.
engineering employment in the first half of nineteen ninety three is estimated to be a hundred and twenty thousand fewer than twelve months earlier and it is forecast to fall another forty five thousand in the next twelve months.
two years ago, norman lamont gave the uncaring conservative view on unemployment.
he told mps rising unemployment of the recession have been the price we have had to pay to get inflation down.
that price is well worth paying.
figures alone colleagues cannot show the misery of redundancy and unemployment, people who have been made redundant are thirty times to, more likely to commit suicide than those in work and time ten times more likely to be seriously ill.
mounting debt problems and the possibility of losing their homes, all that's stress to the redundant workers.
is that the price worth paying?
a long-term coherent policy for industry is needed.
what agreed by government, management and trade unions a policy which assists industry not leaves it to the market forces.
the collapse of the dutch parent company of leyland daf left thousands of jobs in jeopardy whilst the belgian dutch governments took immediate action to try to ensure the survival of plants in their countries, our government sat back and waited to see if another chunk of british manufacturing would disappear.
the g m b and apex partnership shop stew stewards and representatives of leyland daf played a magnificent part, maximizing jobs whilst at the same time looking after the needs of those thrown on the scrap heap through no fault of their own.
i now turn to the most vindictive act of the government in nineteen ninety two.
in order to achieve its dogma of privatizing the coal industry, it colluded with british coal to close thirty one pits.
no consideration was given to what would happen to those working in the industry, their families or communities.
what the government did not bargain for was the public outrage and the massive support given to the demonstrations.
the high court ruled the closure plan unlawful and irrational and the employment select committee slammed the government's actions unacceptable.
heseltine promised to, to call review which was delayed until it could persuade sufficient tory members to vote for it.
under the review, twelve of the thirty one pits are to remain in production, but for how long without a market for coal being expanded?
to pay for the pits the government told british coal not to pay four hundred and eighty one million that it owed to the staff's superannuation fund.
not only has this government got no policies for industries, it has no morals either.
equally, the management of british coal once again have not honoured their undertakings, they promised me that once they had considered the consultants' report into the reorganization, they would consult with us.
i learned of their decision colleagues last night on television when the chairman announced at the u d m conference, who are not involved in this issue at all, that three thousand redundancies of management and clerical staff were going to be made.
when will the government and british coal learn the basic principles of industrial relations and understand they are dealing with people not machinery?
the next three months will be crucial within the industry.
there will be the closures and mothballing of pits, there will be a reduction of apex jobs under the reorganization now taking place and steps towards privatization will begin.
colleagues, the government's inertia in tackling the crisis in industry stems from the fact that it has convinced itself, if not the general public, that there is no problem.
this must be remedied.
i commend my report.
thank you very much duncan.
page forty, forty one, forty two, forty three, forty four, forty five, yes.
president, congress.
mike , midlands and east coast region.
duncan, two things.
first a note of caution on your report on aerospace.
you mentioned the saudi deal has been announced, but so far it's only for the tornado and not the full go ahead to .
excuse me.
also there's been no announcement so far on the hawk trainer which involves most of the four and a half thousand at as many more in british aerospace and other companies.
secondly for your efforts in putting for the recent joint delegates conference on the out-sourcing and that's a company's way and not mine.
of the information and technology department by british aerospace,and that thanks is not used from apex, it's also from m s s at or acknowledged it was your efforts and not their that brought that conference about.
this out-sourcing could put the software technology for the defence of the country into the hands of a foreign-controlled company and it could cost another two thousand british aerospace jobs.
thank you duncan.
forty six, forty seven, yes.
president, congress, ron , yorkshire and north derbyshire, at the moment, as far as i'm aware still employed by british coal.
duncan, salary and conditions claim i quote due to the turmoil within the industry at the time of compiling this report, we have not as yet presented a claim .
duncan, we have now gone seven months without presenting a claim, during which time our members have continued to work hard for the corporation.
we are doing our jobs, it is not our fault that the board members and the government cannot do theirs, but as usual it is always the workforce who are suffering.
don't let us lost a year, if we let them use turmoil in the industry as an excuse for not meeting us, we will never sit round a table with them again.
we are going to be asking our members to pay a further ten pence a week to maintain front-line services, but they feel they are not getting any.
simply duncan, when are we going to get in there and negotiate before we start losing membership for reasons other than redundancy?
thank you.
and forty eight.
yes.
president, congress, ed , westminster trade union and political staffs branch for the london region.
congress, i think it's only right to draw to your attention that in item five b usdaw that at the last usdaw conference there was a motion passed saying that there should be recognition for the independent trade union within usdaw which is ourselves, g m b apex.
however since that time, there has been no recognition granted by usdaw, the main reason for which is the general secretary, who allegedly had said that because his organization is not a profit making organization, there is no reason to have a trade union there.
now these are the kind of people we have to deal with and i know duncan has a problem in usdaw there's gerry the negotiator for the london region.
er will you remember me next month?
yes.
ne mo i meant next week.
yes.
when i, will you remember me next month?
no.
will you remember me next year?
no.
no you're supposed to answer them all yes.
mm.
oh.
yes, yes then.
now i'll have to start again.
no, oh no david please !
just, just accept that i said 
what?
yes.
ma knock, knock then.
who's there?
don't tell me you've forgotten me already!
mm mm.
i knew what you were getting at.
knock, knock.
who's there?
alfie.
alfie who?
alfie who goes round the town squealing through key locks.
what key locks ?
oh.
key locks?
what's a key lock?
key holes.
key holes!
mhm.
knock, knock.
oh!
mm.
dave.
less knock knocks, and more eat, eats!
oh dad!
the garden's looking better isn't it?
all that work.
i better knock knock 
yes, till next week.
ah no!
i mean the grass was so long.
it's much better now.
mum.
looks much 
this is wi 
better.
sorry.
this is a joke for you.
knock, knock.
who's there?
ah sheep.
well sheep who?
well sheep who keeps go who keeps going round supermarkets saying shampoo.
oh!
that's some obscure jokes.
so obscure you'll have to explain that one to me.
well mum had some pictures
not with your mouth full sunshine.
when you've emptied your mouth.
it looks better for going around most of the edges and going over the grass.
the back bed looks particularly good.
the one 
it does.
by the
yes.
well i mean it was a lot 
it was a lot of edging to do.
i mean it was just the back though.
now if you'll excuse me a moment.
i'll just watch the last few laps.
how many laps are there to go?
that .
look.
dad!
yes love.
come here.
no i'm, just got sitting down again.
yo go on you can tell me this joke and then you can finish.
but it isn't a joke.
alright.
well tell me whatever it is.
no it's er, mum, shall i finish this?
mm mm.
all my carrots i'm eating.
i would rather you ate your vegetables, yes, rather than the chicken please.
but mum i 
yes?
i won't go hungry.
well i hope you won't.
it's down, down to those two cos of the grand prix on.
those two do like watching it don't they?
if you can't, you can't so easily if you haven't got a better car.
the grand prix.
hey yo!
camera.
get your show biz shocks of the they caught me when i was standing on my head.
well they've switched the wa water in for a motor.
come on, eat it sunshine.
you do.
that rhymes.
come on, eat up and then we can go and watch the end of the grand prix as well, can't we?
i thought it was the cup final.
no, that was this afternoon.
oh!
mum.
mhm?
i don't want these carrots.
a after i've eaten this carrot can i give up?
well, eat the carrot.
and do you think you can manage some broccoli and some of those peppers please?
i can't.
you really can't?
well drink your orange juice then.
and eat the carrot?
eat your carrot as well, yes.
eat your carrot and drink your orange juice.
please.
i've just squeezed that for you.
you need all the vitamins you can get with your cold.
and you can't manage that broccoli as well?
alright.
i don't mind you leaving your chicken, but i'd rather you ate your vegetables please.
as much as you can.
you can live without meat but you wouldn't do very well without vegetables.
sit down please.
don't get up from the table before that.
sit down and finish it.
could you pass your plate please?
thank you.
thank you very much.
thank you splodger.
mm.
mum.
mhm?
funny, cos we've never had cows in there.
we have.
there have been cows in the field.
i think it was before you were born.
and it wasn't for long, i must admit, that we had cows in that field but i think 
mum we 
the sheep are best.
mum, we had horses in the winter once when i was a baby.
there were horses in the field when we came.
and that was years ago.
when i was a baby.
that was nine years ago.
no you weren't a baby.
we had horses again well maybe when you were a baby.
yes er, i was, i, i saw a picture
yes.
yes we yes that's right.
with dad holding me and the 
cos you 
horse's head over our shoulders.
are you sure it wasn't chris as a baby?
i'm su it was either me or chris.
i'd rather there were sheep in the field than pigs.
didn't like having pigs.
geese were alright weren't they?
except it wasn't very nice watching them disappear just before christmas.
well at least they gave some to some old concentration
we don't eat lamb any more do we?
after things that we've seen in that field .
pardon mum?
we've given up eating lamb lamb since there's been sheep in the field haven't we?
we haven't had lamb for years now.
we haven't.
no.
we only eat chicken.
i no, we, we had it in the i think, indian, italian.
no, we don't.
indian takeaway.
get chicken.
ma.
mum.
mhm?
mum, tell you what mum, do you like, have you ever tried eating pork chops?
a long time ago, yes.
do you like it?
i liked it at the time, yes.
well mum
haven't eaten pork chops for a long time.
mum.
yes?
now there's sheep in the field while, while there's sheep in the field, we won't eat lamb.
no.
i don't think, i don't think i want to eat lamb ever again.
when there's pigs in the field we won't eat pork chops.
cos they'll grill crossly.
we only eat chicken now don't we?
and meat.
come on.
you finish your orange juice and we'll go and watch the rest of the race.
come on poppy.
finish that mouthful of carrot.
when i've finished my orange juice can i get down?
yes you can!
finish your carrot and finish your orange juice, then we'll go we'll go in the sitting room and watch the rest of the race.
no.
see, see who wins.
can i orange juice, only my orange juice please?
well you've got your carrot in your mouth, just finish eating it.
just swallow it.
drink your orange juice and then you'll swallow your carrot.
you're a hamster you are.
you store food in your cheeks.
no, pouches.
mm mm.
go on swallow.
it's awful cos minnie keeps taking throwing her wrappers out, her food.
took it down to our bedroom and spitting it out!
does she?
that's 
mm.
is it a gerbil or a hamster
a hamster.
that david's got?
well wipe 
it's a hamster.
wipe your mouth and you can get down now.
that's a good boy.
come on.
let's go and watch the rest of the race.
hang on.
shall we bring the
you alright darling?
should look where he's going, he's just bumped his head.
oh you poor thing!
you jus he kept walking into the doors.
he walks into the door of the .
and he walks into the erm
door of the classroom.
the classroom door.
can i move your violin music christopher?
yeah.
well, all the
have you finished violin for today then?
yes.
well, you've only had two practices.
i said he'll have to do a good one tomorrow.
you've no chance have you?
well, well i know it's cubs tomorrow and if we're going out as well.
it's cubs and we're going out, so
well i 
see that car stepping out chris?
i am if we can get a sitter.
where?
what you've missed it now!
what did it do?
it started to slide.
have we been topping that up a little?
or have you just been very careful?
oh.
anybody want any well there's only strawberries.
no you have those.
do you want some strawberries chris?
i'll share them with you?
yes please.
can i have some cream and erm 
yeah.
oh christopher!
look at the back, he's covered in grass.
look phil!
chris if you're gonna roll around on the lawn 
after it's been cut the least you can do is give yourself a shake 
before you come in.
how many more laps?
we're not fast as in this.
shh shh shh shh shh shh shh.
not a large number.
i got nettled.
i'm not surprised.
no, even with my gardening gloves on i got nettled when i was pulling at around that honeysu 
well they're not very successful gardening gloves are they?
well no!
the nettles are very potent.
mm mm.
see two bolters , or whatever that is in
it's nearly seven o'clock!
i know that!
cos i've got to take these kids up for a bath soon er er you can stay
well i
down here if 
i'll record may to december but i'd like to watch 
why?
you watch it now.
no.
cos then you won't see it.
why shou 
but i'm not bothered jane.
why should i be the only one that suffers?
i'm not bothered about that.
i would rather wa yes, well you can suffer it all with me.
erm i'd like to watch lovejoy please.
i thought last week was the last one?
last one of the, but they're showing one of the old ones and we, i haven't seen it, so 
oh.
doo doo doo da da .
there's nothing else on after that.
we've got a clear evening after that.
after that?
it'll be bed time!
it'll finish, what half nine?
well i dunno.
i hope there's an extended news.
there's bound to be.
turbo goes senna.
would you like a couple of
pardon chris?
who's 
pa 
the the one the one ran out of the crash on this ?
well it's happened, before now chris.
mm mm.
silly things, like crashing, running out of petrol.
running out of petrol just before.
bit of a daft time to wait to, to .
what did he say?
consummately easy win?
he did indeed.
oh that's a good picture they've got there isn't it?
that's really constructive.
that looking at a bald head, a stupid girl, and something else.
oh!
but why is she stupid?
i bet they show other people all that.
getting her head in the way of the camera.
so what happened to senna?
i know he dropped out, but why?
don't know.
oh.
ran out of steam after eighteen laps.
if we're going to do any more quizzes this is the sort of thing we're going to need to know to do well on the sports sections.
well i don't know.
they don't do interesting sports.
they did the firs 
they do obscure ones like golf.
ah but the, the first ques the first question on the sports section was, what team does nigel mansell drive for?
oh.
did you get it right?
no, we could only come up with, i forgot, but it was something renault, and we could only think of renault.
williams,will williams.
yeah.
but chris knows.
that's renny.
yeah.
here are, look, look, this groupie's getting into everything.
erm senna ma drives a macclaren doesn't he?
yes.
yes he does.
he's got brazilian on.
mm mm .
we'll go to the favourite bit in a minute chris.
what?
your mum loves it.
what?
standing on the podium and they spray champagne over everybody.
oh i hate that!
that does annoy me!
breaks your mum's heart that, to see all that champagne thrown.
no it's not the waste of champagne, i feel sorry for everybody getting so sticky.
oh .
ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh!
i know what it's like trying to get alcohol out of your clothes.
no don't tell me to have my dress cleaned.
last time senna had something like hundred and twenty didn't he?
pardon?
sorry?
last time senna had something like a hundred and twenty .
erm yeah probably he did have .
looks like the sun was shining there chris.
mm.
oh she's out there again!
where?
i wonder who was sponsoring the race?
mm?
you can afford to be can't you?
mm.
why's she so
we well yes she's 
why's she crying?
she's obviously in it for the bet.
she must be the cameraman's dau 
here it comes chris.
mum's favourite.
she must be the cameraman's daughter.
three bottles.
not gonna show you mum.
ah they'll show it on the news later on.
cos that'll be, that'll be the bit they show on the news.
about senna retiring.
oh, you saw the first
i want to see all the exciting bits i missed.
well, won't they have highlights on later?
this is the highlights.
you mean, they didn't show the full race?
the full race was run at some obscure time today so 
when i listened to the six o'clock news
i was hoping you wouldn't come 
on the radio 
running through and tell me 
no, oh do i ever?
they said it was half way through
yes, well that's a 
at the six o'clock news.
well, yes sh yes well, this, well this was only the highlights unless the last two or three, no the last two or three parts have been live.
yeah, on the six o'clock they said it was half way through and nigel mansell was the lead and i thought you were watching it live, so i wouldn't just come through and
mm mm.
right.
chrissy go outside and shake the grass off you now please, off your back.
david!
david !
are all, are all the bikes put away?
yes, tired.
we
skateboards, everything?
last time dave.
david !
we're going to have to have this room tidied up tomorrow.
i hope morna will sit, but she might not mightn't she?
well you haven't asked have you?
aren't you go 
well 
aren't you going to ring her tonight rather 
yes.
than wait till tomorrow?
well i forgot.
well she's probably tired, she's been out two nights in a row.
i'll get her tomorrow when she's feeling a bit fresher.
then she says no.
well i daren't ask susan again.
daren't.
oh no, we're not asking susan.
it's getting expensive getting susan.
although the money's not important, it's just that you can't keep asking a girl that age to come out.
are you ready?
are we going upstairs?
right!
ooh!
mind your head.
come on boys.
can i have some bub 
yes you can 
yes, course yo 
have some bubbles.
come on.
yippee!putting in some bubbles in the bath.
i'll get .
why is two thousand three hundred your favourite number?
because when that parcel came from gwyneth you said that i think probably two thousand three hundred mini-bites in it.
ha!
i don't know why, it's funny, two thousand three thousand, three thousand .
are you happy now?
yes.
it's not hair wash night is it?
no.
his hair needs cutting though, look at it.
oh i'm not bothering.
no.
i'll do that on tuesday.
too late when they've got bubbles.
yes.
you don't have bubbles when you're gonna to wash your hair.
come on!
but, but ah ah!
mum can you tell jokes in here?
yes, course you can tell jokes.
is that tape on?
yes.
you don't worry about that.
come on!
mum.
get undressed.
what, what did the policeman say to a bath?
well i don't know, what did the policeman say to the bath?
you're on top of the pipes.
no, he no well what did the shoe,sha what did the pop star say to the bath?
what did the pop star say to the bath?
not one of your obscure ones are they?
come on.
this is like your isn't it?
you're on top of the pipes.
you're on top of the pipes.
don't 
now i don't see that's funny.
well he got it.
you're on top of the pops.
oh oh!
i see!
oh!
i see!
oh, it's a play on words.
you're on top of the pipes.
oh.
see?
yes, actually it's quite good that
well
in an obscure sort 
in obscure 
of way .
there's lots of it there.
yes.
well yo 
er yo just remember we've got to get washed .
dad.
yes love?
what did the bath say to a policeman very moodily?
i don't think i want to know.
you get into 
well it says 
this bath this minute!
yeah.
and the and then or else i'll open my plug and water'll come out before you get in.
mm.
erm, that isn't a joke.
no, i don't think it was funny.
well the water's right round there.
what did the policeman say to the bath?
you're going 
what did the policeman say his tummy?
i remember that one.
you're under a vest.
you're under a vest.
yeah.
what did the policeman say to a woman?
i don't know.
what did the policeman say to the woman?
dare i ask !
no.
what, what was the policeman say what, what did the policeman say to the woman who was having a rest?
i don't know.
what did the policeman say to the woman that was having a rest ?
they said, mummy, move yourself!
no.
no.
well go on then.
you're having a rest.
you're ha you're under arrest.
no.
no.
you were trying but 
no.
it's not very good.
come on!
get into the bath.
come on, get in the bath.
and all the new ones i've brought out.
try 
but 
the water first.
mm mm.
cos it's .
course it will be, i did it.
get in.
got bubbles.
oh .
i'm going to sta all that's for the wash?
right!
cos it's chitty
cos it's what?
chitty.
are you saying chitty chitty bang bang?
well i can spell chitty.
well go on then.
c i h t y .
no.
c
ah.
you wrote down all the words in your school book didn't you?
i noticed when i was at school the other day.
and i had to cross them 
you ha 
out.
you had to, why did you have to cross all the words out?
i thought you'd be
cos she didn't want the song.
ah ah!
that's a shame.
well it's a
c h i 
yes.
yes.
what's next?
y
no,t t y .
t t y .
you've spelt it correctly in your book.
it's easier to spell when you can write things down isn't it?
rather than still, you're only just six.
your spelling's quite good.
mum.
yes?
did you like my bit about the chip in chitty chitty bang bang?
i did.
yes.
i meant, about the, the one about the rockets and manchester.
mm mm.
and about that boat called chitty chitty bang bang.
i'm coming into your school 
come on.
tomorrow to help.
get on.
i can't 
no!
is the water too hot david?
no, i was playing the bubble .
i must admit, with that amount of bubbles in bo look at your toes peeping out through the bubbles.
look !
it does look funny .
i think you better get a move on, it sounds like your brother's coming.
doesn't matter.
alright.
i know.
oh, yes, he does look like father christmas.
ready?
mm.
see if your mum can catch.
ooh!
no.
look at that lovely egg.
yes.
she missed it.
can you 
i'd like 
can we put on that side because i think that's where to keep it.
i don't want to lose that again.
do you remember when we got it?
yes.
pantomime
it got, we caught it.
we caught it.
yes, it was really good.
and these so you can catch eggs.
we need to waggle it.
that's better than ca catching the eggs is better than catching the wagon wheel.
yes, i think so too.
because he only ever, he only threw one egg out of the audience and we caught it, whereas at a, every year he throws lots of wagon wheels out.
oh oh.
yeah, and it's both of them.
mm mm.
but he only ever throws the one egg.
come on sa move it boys!
dad!
i want, oh dad!
but we've only just got the bubbles in and the soap'll dissolve them.
yes it does, the soap does dissolve 
mm.
erm yes.
so it's that way.
well it does.
it says in the .
this is a really good bath!
is it?
yes.
it's the best bath i've ever known.
ha!
ha!
ha!
very funny chrissy.
yeah, very funny.
oh!
dejection of
dejection
right davey
ah!
you're still covered in grass.
look at you!
what?
goodness me!
been carrying the lawn around with him.
oh oh oh oh .
oh well i look out onto the window and see that it's 
wah !
just mud.
right.
shall i go and get clothes line ready?
ah .
i emptied there with all the erm 
lawnmower and everything.
then i can peg you out to dry.
you don't want to, cos you're not really no good david.
two lawnmowers going at the same time the neighbours must be annoyed.
yeah, and i was trying to listen to that lousy interview.
well you didn't tell me.
i didn't realize.
i did try.
well, as soon as i realized i stopped.
no you didn't, you ran out of petrol.
well i would have gone round the back again.
mummy.
on the radio?
is that why i went out of 
that's, i was, i was, i was listen i was listening to neil kinnock 
that was why he shouted at us to go away, he was listening to .
promising us this fantastic new world that isn't gonna cost us any money.
oh .
well i 
and i, and i believed every word of it.
ha!
ha!
well, i couldn't know that, i didn't know.
do you realize this time next week we'll know.
pardon?
the result of the general elections.
and the conservatives will have won.
d'ya think?
hopefully.
why not?
do you know how i want to be the prime minister of next year?
yeah.
next 
er 
year?
i would give it a year 
but 
or two sunshine.
well, about four years .
and why do you want to be the prime minister?
no.
he's gonna tell you who he wanted to be.
oh!
i thought you said he wanted to be.
alright.
who do you want to be the prime minister next year?
er er president 
president gorbachov.
oh yeah!
oh!
yes.
that's a really intelligent suggestion.
yes.
well yes, that's very good.
er, or michael heseltine.
david
do you know david, he, he made mrs thatcher resign.
didn't he?
yes.
yeah.
in a way.
unfortunately.
she can still become prime minister though can she?
no.
no.
oh.
no.
but, well she could 
well in theory, yes.
she, she's going to 
but in practise, no.
she's dropped out now chris.
she's not going to resign as an mp this time, in fact, she's in america now.
do you remember how erm
go on david, get on with soaping now love.
david heard that mr major was going to be prime minister and he said,surely it's mrs major .
i didn't!
i, i, i think
er and chrissy, and chrissy said to me, i didn't realize a man could be prime minister .
quite so, i think if kinnock 
but i 
if kinnock gets in you've got an old woman so you'll be right.
i think that's fantastic!
that david, they thought 
but i thought it was 
that women could o only women could hold the top jobs.
no, i thought if it was a man it was a president and it was a woman it was prime minister.
oh yes,yo you're destroying my belief in what you were thinking about.
cos i thought you thought only women could 
come on david, soap please.
rule.
before your brother gets in.
well i thought
come on!
no !
have they got the wax work up yet?
in the, that hall somewhere, i can't remember where it is.
madame tussauds.
i'm not sure.
they have a wax work of ma mrs thatcher up and erm mis mr erm major wouldn't go there till they erm so that, they've still got mrs thatcher's one up.
i don't know.
they're both conservative.
mm.
there's more bubbles down your end.
mm.
but it's
cos i'm getting cold.
right.
i'm going to record erm
cos chrissy's 
a programme.
getting in here.
right jane.
just watch it!
behave!
you can get out now 
stop it!
david.
.
pardon?
get out!
oh!
are you allowed to, recording all this on your personal stereo?
get off.
shut up!
ah!
beg your pardon!
sorry.
you will be!
that's one thing you don't say.
here.
dun dun, da dun dun, dun dun diddle diddle diddle diddle .
get back in before he, can i 
he's erm 
have some more water in?
he's, he's put you the bubbles at your end chris.
go on down.
can i have some more water 
no.
in?
you're not staying in here all night tonight.
come on.
get on that end.
oi!
oi what?
you hit me.
aha!
you should .
right .
get your attention chris.
dad said 
shall we try another one?
dad.
ow!
dad's just jealous.
dad's just jealous.
of what?
show your muscles david.
go like that.
do you want one david?
mm.
no!
it's a good one.
i'm a weakling aren't i dad?
i know that.
you and your mum too, i know.
come on dave!
use the soap properly, then give it chris.
a feeble five.
no he's not.
he's a silly six.
mm.
no that's in the there's this detective erm there's these, there's these detective book and th there's a girl, detective girl sam, and erm her e the feeble five headed by steve .
so, what's 
er 
that, a take-off of the famous five?
i don't know.
but er and if sh she's in the last book, she tells how ugly erm, erm steve was.
er, but erm she wouldn't bother to she'll be getting her e old age pension before she's finished.
mm mm.
dave!
stop it!
come on, sit up.
you've gotta be out in half a second now.
my shoes are stuck to the
well that's good.
look, this part
.
right plonker let's do that.
i'm not getting out yet.
i beg your pardon?
i'm not getting out yet.
aren't you?
no!
oh no he's not, he's, he's gonna get out in ten seconds.
no i'm not.
here are chris.
i'm going to get out in three .
ah !
get off!
i'm going to get out in
i beg your pardon?
ah!
get off !
dad 
ha!
get off !
get off.
dad.
right!
you dare!
bu bubbles from fifty yards.
doo, doo dee doo .
that's it dave.
come on bubbles him.
get off !
no, no, no, no.
no!
no !
the more he says no the more you can bubbles him dave.
dee da dee dee dee .
come on.
right?
yeah but that's not fair!
of course it's fair.
get back in there.
well you're not allowed switch the tap on.
i only flicked water at you.
i might turn the cold tap on you.
come on dave.
yeah but i didn't 
no that's chrissy's towel.
sorry.
wrong one.
and that.
ah ah !
and he's, he's breaking your arm off.
stand up david.
i can't go out, i've only just got in.
dave!
up!
no oh.
now!
now!
now!
ooh ooh!
up!
ow!
chris no!
no!
no!
alright christopher, you've learnt the clapping trick.
now come on david, up!
no i haven't dad.
i didn't tha 
go on, stop that whistle chris.
dave!
up!
i can't after all that whistle.
wurgh!
urgh!
i still can't.
come on then.
ah ah!
aargh!
they won't 
come on.
do it .
come on.
oh god!
they can't get up.
stay in there and the water'll be alright.
chrissy!
just leave be quiet, leave him alone.
david!
will you please get up now before i, there's trouble!
ba ba ba ba ba ba da da da da da da ah .
can i have some more water in?
it's not really deep.
no!
you're not stopping in.
well it's cold.
well, that's your fault for coming up late.
yes but you put the water in.
ah.
mm.
come on.
there, get yourself dry.
no.
cos
i was left alone .
la la, la la ah ah ah ah 
get on with it.
come on!
ah ah ah ah, la la !
come on dad, help me please.
no, do it yourself.
d i y, just being here, do-it-yourself.
just cos you're brain washed with television advertisements chrissy.
i'm not.
cos you keep going on about it.
mm.
mhm.
how about ba er how about ambers how about andrex.
has anybody heard the weather forecast today?
yeah.
you, you were listening to it on the radio.
i heard you listening and i thought oh she'll probably wanna tell me if there's anything, it's that the warmer airstream or something.
yeah, i, i can never, i can never take in the rain check .
oh!
unsettled that was it.
and then more showers.
come on, chris.
get on.
ian mccaskill's trying to tell us what the weather forecast'll 
you wouldn't 
be like for thursday 
and i'm sort of thinking, why thursday?
then it suddenly dawned on me, why thursday.
right.
come on!
move it!
yeah but you did the weather all sunny on the computer.
yes, but i haven't been to work today.
i 
mm.
e i read it yesterday and it was gonna be alright, it said fine.
there's only one sock here, where's your other dirty sock?
but that yesterday dad but i thought it was today.
well i expect the whole thing needs washing doesn't it?
pardon?
i thought it was today you want on the computer.
yesterday we went.
i know.
she ee shh.
go on dave, get on.
chris.
splash this splash over the splash over the bath.
there, a really big splash!
mm, whoosh!
well i'll do that.
i'm was having on mine.
alright?
which one's yours?
are you a smartie one?
yeah.
well go and fetch it then.
right.
there's a a thing there.
do you want any more drink?
no thank you, i, please let me just finish clearing and i'll, i'll get it finished off quickly.
you were telling that judy, julie.
nothing.
she said she was just having just the usual drinking gear and er
well i'm 
eat biscuits, and i don't, nothing else.
i haven't, i haven't any biscuits have i?
well you'll have some kit-kats or summat won't you?
nope.
breakaway?
i think i've got breakaways.
i want to put the disposal unit on so can you move this?
come on sunshine, come and sit with me here.
right.
i'm ready.
you're ready?
what are you going to do?
well, first i need a light of concentration
oh light helps you concentrate does it?
yes.
go on then.
have some light.
that's sit down!
no next to me here.
oh right.
i'm coming.
just leave that here.
right.
right.
now what are you going to show me?
i'll tell you.
right.
one, plus, plus one.
i'm taking some ones.
oh i see.
that's how you set that up to do that is it?
yeah.
who showed you that?
mrs .
well i didn't know that.
but
she's getting a job at a different school now.
cor!
has she?
getting a job.
but, you don't need a machine to do that.
you can count just like that.
and, and, well i'm just showing you them.
right.
so
here.
yes.
seven twos.
that's two, i got, got it, got it.
right.
but you can count in twos.
of course i can!
two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve.
after twelve?
fourteen.
then?
sixteen.
then?
eighteen.
then?
twenty.
then?
twenty two.
mm.
you're having to think about it.
off then.
clear.
so can you do ninety nines?
keep adding ninety nines together?
wait!
what's two ninety nines?
that's right.
oh!
no now it gets useful doesn't it?
when you're dealing in bigger figures
all the
than you can do in your mind.
all the, all the numbers.
mm.
right, read me that number.
two hundred and sixty nine.
start again.
a hundred and two sixty nine.
how do you get that?
i number one is, what does it say at the end?
nothing there.
full stop.
it says, two, o, seven, nine.
oh.
two o seven nine.
which is?
what does that make?
it's the number of a steam engine i've got.
i'm not bothered whether it's a number of a steam engine but how do you pronounce that number?
two hundred a 
no.
no.
two.
if it was that number it would be hundreds.
it's bigger than hundreds, so what's that?
er thousands.
right.
so how many thousands?
two thousand and seventy nine.
well you got there in the end didn't you?
right.
right.
now it's even more difficult.
even more difficult.
equals
yeah, very clever.
you can add up in, what are you doing up, in tens?
tens.
you can do that.
ten, twenty, thirty, forty, can't you?
yes.
what comes next?
fifty, sixty.
then?
seventy, eighty, ninety, twenty
ah ah!
ninety?
a hundred.
that's better.
and add up in hundreds now.
a hundred, twenty
no.
a 
a hundred billi 
no, start off 
erm 
with a hundred and then add another hundred what do you get?
i'm trying to work my way to the end.
now you're being a pickle!
not, not with the machine.
using your own head.
add, add hundreds up.
come on.
what do you start with?
a hundred, a hundred and one, and 
no.
no, no, no, no!
i was, i wasn't meaning you to go up in single numbers i was meaning, go up in hundreds.
start off with a hundred.
yes.
a hundred.
then add, add the same again.
two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred, eight hundred, nine hundred, ten hundred.
but what's ten hundred?
a thousand.
right.
so why didn't you say that?
you didn't yo 
i, i did.
i was expecting you to count, nobody says ten hundred.
do they?
no!
it always goes onto the next number.
every number ga always goes up to nine.
then it triggers over into another one doesn't it?
yes.
now what were we saying the other day?
you have, units tens, hundreds, thousands
but dad 
don't you?
but three er there.
check that number.
ha!
that was stupid.
yeah.
mm mm.
so mrs was showing you how to do this?
right.
yes.
what, what else have you learnt to do with a calculator?
if you had four things
yes.
if i give them
and you wanted to divide them among four people
yes.
how many would each person get?
but i don i, i, i didn't quite get the question.
if you had four things and you wanted to divide them between four people
yes.
how many would each person get?
two.
no, one.
that's better.
now you did that without a calculator didn't you?
oh i see.
right, now this time do it with the calculator.
so you've got
four turn it on.
turn it on.
you run out of light?
there are.
now you're on.
which figure do you want?
no.
no.
you're dividing.
which one's divide?
that one.
divide by
four.
yes.
that's right.
equals?
right.
now that wa that time, that's easy.
that just proves what you already know.
right dad, i'll show you something else.
no.
i was going to do more 
but i wa i want to show you something, that's all.
go on then.
nine, fifty six square root.
er
who taught you that?
well, i lis no one.
it's mrs said to mark 
just a minute.
he, he, he was getting the controls wrong.
he pressed square root instead of equals .
yes.
and so you've discovered 
eh!
the square root of ninety six is nine point seven nine, seven nine, five, eight nine.
but do you know what square root means?
what?
well the square root of a number
yes.
is the number which if multiplied by itself
yes.
gives you back the number you started with.
take, for , the easiest one is four.
the square root of four is two.
try it on your machine.
right.
what do i press?
four four, square root and it gives you two.
because two times two gives you four.
try the square root of nine.
just press clear.
yeah, i just press this one.
yes.
clear that bit.
cos it clears the whole mind.
right.
what shall i press?
nine square root is three.
so if you multiply three times three you get nine.
now it's easy when you deal in numbers like that because if you go to sixteen
yes.
the square root is four.
yes.
and if you go to twenty five the square root is five.
that's the number which multiplied by its self
right.
gives you the number.
now, now it gets difficult when you come to a number like six.
oh yes.
try and find the square root of six.
what do you think, have you an idea of what it will be.
don't, don't press the button.
six.
er er
what, what number do you think you'd have to multiply by itself to get six?
three.
no.
three times three is?
i don six, six.
it's three.
no.
three times three.
i don't know the answer!
well look three three and three.
so how many have you got?
ten.
no!
plonker !
you've got nine.
i'm just going 
anyway 
to check.
so, there you are.
it's two point four four nine, which really, is very close to two and a half.
which isn't quite right.
oh that, well that's the square root of the other one so you're, you're going to smaller square roots every time.
that gets very difficult.
right.
right.
so clear all that and go back to what you wanted to do.
right, i'll show you.
ten square root is
three point one six two two seven seven six.
right.
eh eh.
four hundred and fifty six square root is twenty one point three five four one five six.
very clever.
useless for you though.
you don't really need that information do you?
well dad!
so what, what, what sort of information do you need?
tt.
counting information.
well, if you went out doing your favourite hobby.
yes.
an engine.
pardon?
getting in an engine.
driving an engine.
now how would sums come into that?
what!
you can't get sums in an engine's smoke box.
mm.
you could if they would burn.
well you co 
i, i want to get clever with you.
oh i thought you had been.
shall we turn that off now then?
i'll get 
on city news there's gonna be something about trams in manchester somebody wants to see.
well is it the new ones or is it, on the television, or on the radio?
yeah, on, on the television.
do you want to switch it on?
do you want, no th are you interested david?
yes .
course i am, in anything like that.
well i'm, i'm going up for my shower is that okay?
okay, off you go.
i'll come up soon and despatch david.
sorry?
oh!
what?
is this the first part of the news or the second 
no.
bit?
it's the second half.
so there won't be much more?
no.
oh no, i mean it's about another another eight minutes.
right.
i thought he'd want to see,take my shower.
yes, off you go then.
see you later.
right dave, what do you want to do now while you're waiting?
get really clever!
so how are you gonna get really clever?
i'm going to get two sheets of paper and two pencils .
i haven't got time for a lot of stuff.
don don't be getting a lot out tonight cos you've got julie coming.
they're not a lot anyway.
only two of them each.
okay.
right what do you want?
take one sheet.
i've got one sheet.
take the green crayon then.
right, i've got the green crayon.
put it that way.
hang on let me just turn the television down.
you you keep your eye on it so that when your tra tram programme comes on we can watch it.
right.
what to do?
well it's
that way you need it.
i want a table for this.
well you can't use these tables.
don't let me just move this magazine.
write five on it.
have i got to write five on mine?
yes.
right.
my green pen doesn't write very well.
there you are.
double add.
double add?
i'm not used to double add.
five plus plus equals
equals
equals, equals?
well this is a bit of a nonsense.
what's that?
one hundred plus plus
equals, equals.
equals, equals.
now it gets easier.
mhm.
now it gets really even harder.
well which way is it?
does it get harder or easier?
three hundred.
mm.
oh, three hundred and four.
i, i'm not understanding when you're doing plus plus when you're writing down yourself.
what are you trying to prove?
divide
mm.
well that's, that's, that's very good for divide, but that's a square root sign.
a square root.
a square root at three hundred and four?
yes.
haven't a clue.
equals
equals now what do you want me to do with all these?
guess.
oh i'm guessing.
write your name at the top.
it's alright writing my name dave but what am i doing?
mm?
it's easier and easier.
well it doesn't look easy.
look, i'll do the usual.
let me write you down some sums.
and you, you can answer them.
okay.
sorry.
i've put an answer in where you don't want.
there you are.
there's a nice list of sums for you.
just get on with 
what 
those.
that's it.
well it isn't easy.
it's the right one.
bu yes, you got it right.
i, i shouldn't have written that.
you sho , five, six, seven, eight .
good
.
speak up.
how do you do a seven?
er er, like that.
you know how to do a seven.
oh here's the tram bit.
let's fli turn up the sound then we can no you've done that backwards, it's seventeen not seventy one.
here we go look.
oh look dave this is great!
going back to the old trams.
but how can they go through the towns?
well trams dave they do both, they go on the railway lines and they go through the town centre.
right.
oh dear!
don't watch this .
the olympics, not that far away.
right.
let's see.
seven minus two is
good.
ah ah!
that's wrong.
right.
i'll just turn off the television then we can concentrate on
i can.
da david!
you're not doing very well on that question and you've done harder ones.
remember how you do it.
add the four to the three
i have.
and what do you get?
eighteen!
no you don't.
well do it, do it the way on your fingers.
you've got thirteen plus four.
thirteen got it now?
yes.
plonker!
right.
now let's do this one.
this is, this is easy.
great!
now yo there you are now then now getting a little harder but you can do it in just the same way.
.
so what's the answer?
yes!
you've got it right.
now this last one then we'll do something different.
that's right.
thirty three minus two is thirty one.
that's not bad.
right what do you want to do now?
mm?
er er, i don't know.
right.
well we can do plenty of that.
have you cleared up all your toys and everything before julie comes?
there's that 
well then why is it still out?
and have you cleared up everything in the dining room?
oh my er trees are still out.
chrissy hasn't put all the climbing up things away.
mm mm.
well shall we go through and do some clearing up then?
come on.
go and put these pens away and the paper please.
we'll do some writing then.
not tonight we won't.
there's not gonna be any more time.
go put those away please.
off you go.
right.
now you said you were gonna tell me what's happened on the news so far.
three people have er been killed in a railway accident after their their car ran into the side of a train.
oh dear!
wh which is about er which is about er open er the day after tomorrow.
what's open the day after tomorrow?
the level crossing.
oh it's closed now is it?
no, they're going to open it.
it's new.
aha.
what else has been happening?
and dad?
yes.
you know that many level crossings are one barrier?
yes.
well that they showed us er a thing about the speed about about the traffic approaching lights when they're starting flashing.
it showed you a car go over that, going over,tha a lorry going over crossing and the lights were starting to flash.
well a lot of people do that.
it's very dangerous.
but i was supposed to stop.
they ha as soon as the lights flash supposed to stop.
be 
what the running of the railway line?
no, they're supposed to stop before the lights.
silly!
yeah.
because, on a lot of those the train
yes.
activates the lights as it's approaching the crossing.
yes cos most,o most of that one barrier, it said on the news that they're o automatic.
that's right.
so 
they have er special cameras which they take the line of the trains both sides.
mhm.
and the barriers drop, so if you try and go through when the lights are flashing or if you try and go round the barriers the chances are the train's getting nearer and nearer and could hit you.
so it's a very silly thing to do.
yes.
like if it's one metre away and there's a car going across.
well if you were that close and the lights started you'd probably get across.
but if you, like, you know what it's like when we come 
if, if the barriers were down er and you were still on the railway er th ah there's only way you can escape.
go round by the barrier pole.
well yes, but look at the crossings we've got in driffield.
yes.
the barriers 
er 
.
they've got full barriers you see.
full barriers.
double are safe.
well, they're different because they have them they're really controlled by a man in a signal box so they're 
yes they are controlled.
controlled by a television.
er 
if they're controlled well dad, everyone knows that one th the tackleby's controlled by a man.
oh yes.
that was good wasn't it?
yes.
yes, you enjoyed that trip into the signal box didn't you?
oh yes.
but though it was rather dangerous.
after all in my, you know my er people working on the rails book?
the one 
yes.
.
it says, you must never try to steer ru steer round a bu barrier poles.
that's right.
and they're trying to take away as many er possible erm, mainly one barrier er railway gates as possible.
well i didn't know they were trying to get rid of those.
especially on busy main roads.
but some of the crossings around this area didn't have any barriers at all 
ah ah.
and they just had the flashing lights.
well it's like wo ones at meading ro meadow road.
that's right.
they're only wooden ones.
ah well tha no meadow road's got the old gates but at natherton there were some that didn't have any barriers at all, they were just flashing lights.
now, do you remember now let's think whether you were born.
when the lockington railway disaster happened that was just a few miles from here.
at manchester?
no, lockington.
ah.
and that was where er, a train came off the railways when it hit a van on 
oh.
on the crossing er and killed a lot of people.
oh.
i, i, i know, i'd, i have never heard never heard.
oh!
that's sa surprise cos i was on the way to hull oh yes!
you were around because i was going to take you and chrissy to hull to a train fair
ah yes!
and mum and chrissy slept in the car.
and and th that's ri they were, they, mum was gonna stay at home and i was gonna take you for a ride on the train
yeah.
and then mum decided she was going to come so we took the car.
and we might, might well have been on that train that had the crash.
yes.
thank goodness we didn't.
well it was one of those things wasn't it?
well it's a good job mum came.
mm mm.
i hope, i hope .
well we went past the crash and we could see that there was something going on but we weren't sure what it was.
it happened just after we went past the, just before.
you could see er a couple of land rovers going down with flashing blue lights and things towards 
i 
the crossing.
and th th and they would be police ones if they'd got blue lights and 
mm mm.
so did you, could you hear the sirens?
no i couldn't.
but erm when we, by the time we got into hull i heard it on the radio what had happened and we went to the toy fair and then we came back and there was er you could see all the ambulances and everything still there.
and the train was there leaning over.
but half of it was still on the rails.
yes it was the front coaches went off.
front coaches?
onto the side i think.
well what sort of express?
it was erm well what do you think it would be?
er i think it must have been a multiple unit.
that's right.
it was a diesel multiple unit.
and it was before you had your pacers and sprinters.
yes.
thank goodness for that!
i wouldn't want one of those, one of the pacers or sprinters or metros spoilt.
but dad!
they're all multiple units at sometimes.
yes, of course they are, but we, i was talking about the old sort of diesel multiple unit.
yes.
one with the yellow front.
you can get all different sorts of, one with two red lights erm one with two windows 
can you?
yes.
mm.
i'm pleased you know your trains.
yeah.
right.
well i'm gonna have to start thinking about getting ready.
what about you getting ready for bed now?
dad.
mhm?
what about the manchester crossing disaster?
which one was that?
er, just outside manchester.
mm mm.
can't remember that one.
the one about those two boys playing on the track.
oh!
is that one they've told you about at school?
no.
no.
i got it from the telly.
oh!
did you now?
no.
you, you told me about it when you came home once.
you told me about that disaster.
well, your memory's better than mine.
i can't remember it now.
the only tha disaster i know very well is the tay one the tay tay bridge.
the tay bridge.
yes.
and half of it still is standing.
what else do you know?
er er tt oh what about?
the tay bridge.
er er well the engine which should have pulled, the post train, broke down so that went to the works and the engine which took its replacement
mhm.
was one which they which fell down with a crash.
oh!
mm mm.
dad!
you should know all this, you told me.
well you've got your book on it haven't you?
somewhere.
of course!
but i can't read it.
right.
anyway, come on let's 
but dad, i don't understand.
well what don't you understand?
about all this at tay bridge.
about other things in my book.
mm mm.
anyway, come on, let's go get ready.
they really should give give you a magazine article itself about the tay bridge.
well you've got a magazine that's got a lot of it in.
but not very much.
no.
here's julie here now phil !
i've left the tape running running.
sorry cat.
oh.
come on.
hi julie!
hi julie.
mummy.
he's not ready.
he's got a nerve asking you to, well letting you do this.
sorry?
i, he's got a nerve 
mum!
letting you do this!
it's taking 
mummy!
advantage!
sit down.
i wonder if i 
you don't mind?
i'll take you through in a minute, i'm just cleaning my shoes.
alright.
i'll take them off.
no don't take them off, it's ju d'ya know i had those re-heeled about two weeks ago.
did you?
look!
it's, well 
isn't that awful!
well yeah.
bit depressing 
though cos well it's two, two pounds fifty six.
i've just taken another pair today to be re-heeled.
i mean, all i've done is walk up to the school a couple of times in them.
can hear the sheep.
yes.
they're noisy tonight.
oh you brought all your work with you?
erm there's all the stuff there.
there's only biscuits, i haven't been able to do any baking.
i don't want, i don't eat them.
i don't eat any more .
well especially if it's my baking!
mm.
now david will be down in a minute.
david, can you tuck your pyjamas in please?
yep.
do you know how to work the fire?
, if i can work it anybody can.
erm, chris is out at cubs but he gets brought home.
right.
so he'll arrive about twenty to, quarter to eight, and he just gets dropped off.
well, the person who's dropping him off might just check that there actually is somebody in the house, you know, so do you know how to work the television?
no.
well okay, i'll come and help you.
it's on standby and then er
there's the controller
er er
it needs new batteries 
never mind.
er to ge to get 
hi love.
if not, erm, just press these buttons here.
oh right.
there's the radio times there 
erm 
there.
so a one-legged person going out of here.
i'm trying to put my shoes on.
right.
erm david
david.
he's out there eating again.
having his yoghurt.
his toothbrush is up, judy he's
julie, not judy!
i said julie didn't i?
oh yes alright.
he's erm, he's self-sufficient, as chrissy walks in david can go up to bed, he's, can do his own teeth, get himself in and, you know, and
he's been .
if you let him though he'll, he'll stay up all night and read to you and things like that, but no, just send him to bed.
i don't mind if he reads for a few minutes but that's it.
chrissy will come in, he might come in bringing simon and his mum
he won't!
you know fran bri 
yeah.
brings him home?
and the last two weeks they've come traipsing in to swap 
they won't tonight.
they won't.
to swap megadrives.
they won't.
anyway
in other words julie, there is nothing for you to do is all, i mean, you're giving, you're giving millions of instructions 
no, but if fran walks in, if fran walks in they'll just put, they'll put a toy on and they'll take it out 
well chris'll sort all that out.
you can just ignore everything.
you can tell them to clear off.
you can 
erm 
have a go on my exercise bike if you want.
that's if nobody else does .
erm
don't you like it?
well tha it requires effort.
er er yeah, and chrissy goes to bed at eight.
he can only read till half past.
but he knows, he knows that.
i know, but 
there's nothing for you to know 
he'll julie around 
really!
you know he does.
well i shall smack his bo oh yes.
julie won't tell you.
was it
wasn't it last time you came, years ago, and he cried?
yeah.
he cried.
that was years ago!
yeah that was when you were going to bill's, the last time i came
oh that was for yeah the party 
baby-sitting.
it's a oh yes the boston, oh yes, the fancy 
yeah.
yes it was.
party.
yeah.
sorry.
didn't want to miss it .
miss what?
nothing.
oh yeah .
bill's party.
you remember bill?
bill?
yes.
oh the the glaswegian optician.
can't remember anything about his parties worth repeating.
they were the same sort of things that i never got invited to again.
ah!
davey.
what?
when chrissy comes home you go to bed.
i know, i heard you.
oh!
alright!
that's right.
sir!
don't stop julie working.
no oh.
ready jane ?
silly question.
?
fortunately.
that's good!
any, anyway you did get your hair done this morning then, yeah?
suit you.
tt!
oh !
see mr last night.
mm mm.
did you?
oh that's nice.
yeah.
i don't think the prospect cheers jane up particularly but what are you doing?
i don't know that i've even seen that .
he gets frustrated when he can't win though.
yeah but don't we all.
i mean, that isn't just a function of their age 
yeah.
it's a function of age you er
i know, but it gets him depressed.
i know, but er, jane goes through the same, i can't remember things.
oh!
i should be able to do this and that but, but it happens.
it's just as you get older i think you, you begin to notice it more because your conscious of your faculties not being there.
anyway, erm but, but with john he wo he will, he'll get really uptight, he won't erm
i don't even think it .
alright?
anything else?
are you taking your car?
cos if you are i'll have to move mine.
we'll take whichever one we can get out quick julie.
erm, jane's'll be easy.
mind you, i've erm far enough forward to be able to get
oh!
we'll manage.
will you?
i'll see.
yeah.
i can see the drive .
you seen what they've been doing?
putting the new 
yeah.
in the bottom.
yeah.
i saw the cones.
actually they're all er they are, nearly all of them have been broken so they've obviously caught up with the list from the .
er er er okay sunshine?
we'll go now.
see you ne see you later.
ni-night.
bye.
bye julie.
bye.
good luck.
right.
my handbag's through that 
turn the tape off.
way, it'll be quicker 
are you turning the tape off?
ooh!
anything more to do?
no.
i don't think so.
i'm tired.
are you going to finish off in the kid's room?
yeah, i'll switch this thing off.
i'll watch the rest of newsnight in bed i think.
right.
oh!
what's this branch for, did you work out?
well it looks like it's a handy for one or something.
oh!
it is isn't it?
that's why it's got to be with the making the bird table i suppose.
it's obviously .
it'll be about i think about half past one.
but i can find out for definite later on.
i've got grandma's .
what about another one?
it's the only one there is .
what's this?
hi!
hi!
hi!
oh i didn't want to come back.
no.
i didn't want to come back.
oh oh you shouldn't have done .
you've got joinery and 
i, i haven't.
i was told i had to.
oh!
i was 
had a chance to get my job finished.
you don't take any notice of them do you?
yes, well i thought so .
she looks absolutely.
oh!
dear.
it's lovely isn't it?
mm.
had it trimmed, do you feel better?
she's taken quite a lot off actually.
and that it didn't feel it when she was sort of combing it, but now i'm actually doing that i can feel it short.
it's not there.
mind you, it needed it.
it did need it.
she said it did.
oh i need a cut.
so yeah .
so, i'm thinking oh it's hard, when i actually feel it it feels thicker at the end and it does feel better but when i've washed it, i shall feel all hairy now all afternoon.
yes.
i'm just going to look .
yeah.
yeah, that's a really nice trim.
this is it.
mm.
just a minute while your mum tells me.
'cos of bird, you've always had bobbie.
always had 'im.
started again today.
mind you, he does chuck a lot of stuff about, 'cos you can see.
yeah.
you're always dusting with him, 'cos he's right dusty.
right er, maybe that's what it is then.
seems funny though, it's only started.
albert says i've got to sell 'im.
shall we sell you?
mm.
who's gonna make you, scratching his bloody head, and he's made his head bleed.
would you have colin about him.
well.
colin.
i ended up paying for him.
she's not bothered, she never goes near him.
never goes near him.
she never goes near him.
she's frightened to death of 'im
isn't it.
i know.
but i don't think geoff would be very pleased.
well, if you say to him, that just say that and that, that's you know, oh, just say something like, just say something like i can't keep up with him dennis, he's throwing loads of dust about, just say to him,think about selling, to you want to buy him back or, you know.
well, they won't, i don't think they'd have him back.
no and that's a 
i don't think, i don't think sell him.
has he got to wait.
a.
i don't think you'd get what you paid for him.
probably not, but i mean, cage is worth a hundred and fifty quid.
that's what russell paid for the cage.
oh, look.
mm
oh, look.
what.
look,
that he's into,
well, i mean, he's no problem to me.
i'm not bothered about him.
you know, i'd rather keep him than sell him, but
it's like everything else, you've always summat else to bloody feed.
mm.
by the way, when we had that pair, that were driving me mad, and then that one died, when we were in bungalow.
other one would learnt how to open a crack, and it were in that cage, and it could hear birds outside.
anyway in the end we let er kenny's grandad have 'im, i mean, 'cos they got me mum's bird.
they've got two of his own, he ended up with four birds.
yeah.
but at least they were happy, you know what i mean.
'cos they were with other birds.
but i never missed, i never missed him.
i don't think you get attached to birds like you do animals.
i don't think you get attached to birds like dogs.
not like dogs and cats.
no.
i mean albert said,if we do get that bungalow, we are 'cos the owner, he said she'll disappear.
she'll disappear.
i mean i'll be upset about our whisky, 'cos we're, i mean, we've had a long time, although she's not a pet pet, you know what i mean.
what feel like.
well, they they just, they go away when you take them somewhere fresh.
and they don't know where they are.
that one.
they're very very 
sometimes, you're lucky, and you know, if if you keep them in long enough
we've always had cats, always had cats, when we lived at and we moved into and we'd had this one cat years, it were old cat.
i wouldn't say it was ready for popping off, you know what i mean.
yeah
it were always fit and we were only there a fortnight, three weeks disappeared.
i mean, if our whisky died, i wouldn't be as upset about it, as i would about these.
but if she disappeared i'd be worried all time.
and yet 
aye.
you know, like when our dawn's kittens disappeared.
it, they weren't bothered, i think mick took them away meself.
yeah.
i'm convinced he did.
i think he did.
but i were i were upset about that, you know.
without a break.
no, it's a can't be in the garden, can he.
yeah.
same as with these next door.
i get right upset about paddy.
i mean she's give his kennel away now, and he's got no kennel again.
ar.
and he's running streets, and you know how cold it was last week, and he's running streets.
what she give kennel away for, then.
i don't bloody know.
i think she'd give the dog away as well.
saw him coming.
don't lick, don't let him lick her, karen.
don't lick.
you mutt
all right.
i've been round me mums this morning.
i expect i'll go.
yeah.
any better or.
she said, when i went round she was sat doing crossword on bed.
and then, er, i said i've just come to see if you want any cigs.
she said, well our john's coming down tonight, she said, just get me twenty.
i said, you might as well get forty, i said, because if he's late coming down
yeah, right.
and he can't round shop after, you'd be stuck, and i mean, he.
i don't albert don't mind going for her cigs, but it's just that we don't get up early in the morning, you know, and if me mum's ringing at eight o'clock in the morning, 'cos she got no cigs.
it's a bit unfair like, when when she could at 
i said she said after my job at 
margaret's not very well.
she hadn't seen margaret since christmas eve.
yeah, but she ain't been bad since christmas eve.
oh, no.
no.
but she 
ov over a month ago.
when they came on sunday, when it were your anniversary, she'd got diarrhoea and sickness, margaret.
i think she were off work last week.
yeah.
i i mean, you're anything like that, but not not for a month, i mean.
i got two toilet papers on .
oh yeah.
well, put one in your pocket then,
i margaret last night.
oh i i bet if you look at it,
i don't pete's been to me mum's for about six months.
because i can't remembering him going.
he never goes without margaret.
she always goes herself, she were down there last night, by herself.
he were at pub.
mm.
well, i said to her, told her about not having nowt to eat from that wednesday morning, er wednesday dinner time, till thursday when they went 
well she took away fish last night for her supper.
oh.
and that she she looked shocked, you know, she didn't didn't know me like, and er, well she was shocked, and then i said i said, right well we'll have to get together and sort something out about stopping with her, and pete said straight away.
margaret's there every day, she goes out every morning.
right.
not that he actually asked her.
years ago about beryl.
i told you that's what he said.
and i said, aye up, i don't mean in day-time.
i says on a night-time, i said, you know, she can't leave her home now, i said, she can't manage to put coal on fire, and she can't manage to get up up to eat and drink and that, i said, i don't mind dropping off and taking me turn on the night-time but i mean, but it's hard, it's hard with me with kids every night.
it's for you with kids.
but i don't, certainly don't mind taking her down once a week or twice a week and taking me turn.
karen there's no need, no need, you're needed at bloody home.
i mean, there's only you got kids.
there's no reason your margaret can't stop when he's on nights.
or afters.
no.
i mean, 'cos we can all down.
only days really what's difficult for him.
yeah.
i don't think pete'd stop.
really.
i mean, he only got to get his clothes on and go to work, the same.
i don't think he'd go stop.
our margaret might go stop herself, but i don't think he'll go.
ah.
you're bending
watching ya.
will you settle down.
no.
i don't think margaret would want to stop, actually.
no, i don't think they would.
none of em will
but er, i don't think 
if no one will go down there at all and and sit with their mother for a for a couple of hours.
no.
i mean, i can't talk, because i never go.
er, to say 'cos i mean, i closest, and i don't go.
yeah, but i was your 
but er, me and me mum's never got on like our margaret and me mum have.
no.
it's same as, what ow she's gone into hospital with her, you know, and i'd actually been that day, you know what i mean, i don't mind, don't get me wrong, i'm not cross, 'cos i don't mind.
but it annoys you they they they think they're doing a lot for her 'cos they go in ev every morning.
yeah, they're more thought of.
yeah.
more thought of.
has he.
yeah.
i mean, i know, but colin ain't been down much this week, because colin's been working, he's been working every day and that, you know what i mean, it's been a bit hard for us to get down but we tried.
yeah.
who should try and pick kids up and then have an hour down there.
well, he spends more time there than me.
'cos i've been this morning and i've cleared fireplace out, washed 
no, you're not wearing your shoes in here.
and i've 'oovered up,
and dusted and polished.
that kitchen floor could do with washing, i saw a mop, but didn't see no bucket.
i don't whether she's got one, but i thought, i didn't have time to do it this morning.
mm.
so i just run round with 'oover and dusted and polished, then i made a cup of tea.
who's doing the washing?
our margaret.
ah.
i can't, our margaret's drying it on radiators, and i says to albert, what me mum doing with the dryer.
he says, i don't know.
it's still there.
so i'm gonna ask her if i can borrow it 
it's 
and then now i'll do her dryer washing for her.
yeah.
i mean, i only really wanted to dry me towels, because i hate having to run out laun launderette while i'm drying all me other clothes on radiators.
it's more expensive to use.
yes.
i know it's more expensive.
sasha.
but it's really only for towels.
come in, and shut that door.
what you got.
get, shout barney in.
shout barney.
barney 
i don't whether she doing ironing, i know she's doing washing.
oh, alright.
'cos she's, well, that day albert took me 
barney 
mum to 'ospital, and i, er she give me a lift.
she dropped her washing off.
i thought she'd dried it, and she said, oh, i'm just gonna put this washing on radiators, and then it, it were then that er it made me think, well, what done with her dryer.
yeah, i know.
well, 'cos i mean, she can't be paying much electric.
it's not that that your margaret ain't got time to stop there and dry it for her, you know what i mean.
oh, all you got to do is put it in, somebody'll take it out.
yeah.
go over there, no don't, she won't go outside, keep them on there.
yeah.
i don't know.
i mean, your margaret sent a dinner down last night
you know what i mean, the
yeah, she she said she might.
she's took er fish and that, and she's tried in ways like that.
yeah.
i mean i can't afford to take care 
we tried to 
we can afford to keep afford to dog.
and margaret's dad, when they, when my kids were little would never take our kids anywhere but they 
it were me dad, it were me dad that didn't take up 
and always relied on one or the other, i don't 
me dad wouldn't me dad didn't mind taking 
i don't care which one.
but they would never take 'em out for day
no, i know.
but they would fetch 'em and pay for them, and i even today, you cannot buy love.
no.
and it's proven my point, our dawn wouldn't even think about there.
our our corinne goes round when she got to.
don't think about what.
our corinne don't only go round when she got to.
she goes round 
goes round weeks ago.
well, she won't go and stop.
said she won't go and stop again.
who's gonna stop then.
when we were all on about stopping 
i don't mind going and doing her shopping and bits, she says, i'm not stopping.
yeah.
when you were on about that love, what pa was saying about, you know, like every night, that our kids, when, they had their pyjamas on, and they're like, to get hold,i'm lying watching television, i'm usually falling asleep, but i put the kids,you know.
and er, last time i i get in touch, me mum told me,turned round and says to me, i don't want any more mum, i says why, he says, oh she won't let me have pillow and then i then i think if summat else brought to light, i kill her
yeah.
if she had come in
yeah.
and that, i know it's a filthy old thing, but it it's comfort ain't it.
yeah.
and when they start let them have the pillow down, they don't feel, they can't get comfortable.
i know it's a little bit trivial like, but it's just, it's still 
she has queer ways me mother.
karen i i'm forty-seven and i can't work me mother out, so, no chance for you working her out, few years you've known her.
no no, i i, i mean, she's always been alright with me really, i mean,y you know, she's not not at all mother-in-law, she's not 
well, me and me mum's, me and me me mum's never been close.
it were always like, me and our colin were more or less with me dad, and our margaret and john were more or less for me mum.
then when they got older, me dad sort of took our john on, because our john were mechanical minded, and our colin got pushed out a bit, 'cos our colin weren't interested in cars.
i found this.
oh yeah, oh that's what that bird.
yuk.
and our colin was to be off t' fair, and that, so, me dad sort of went on to our john and pushed our colin out a little bit.
yeah.
but er, me and our colin's never been me mum's favourite.
it's always been our margaret.
mind you, did you see that photo that 
yeah.
you are, i mean, i could just work out,i said, your margaret and john are a lot like you.
she is 'cos she's got margaret's lips and your nose, but out of all of you, i think your your jo you can see your john in it, can't you, more than anybody.
i always think our john looks more like a prescott, 'cos he al every time i see him, i see me uncle bill more and more.
yeah, john used to say, years ago about how much that you're, john looks like your brian, and i don't think he looks anything like it.
no, i don't.
and she again now, she says like somebody your john look like that bloke next door.
what a load of rubbish, i thought well.
no.
he looks more and more
aye.
our colin's getting more and more like me dad.
well, brian ain't it.
brian , brian i think don't like, er,
they are, they're all like that.
all of them.
and i think our john looks like me uncle bill.
yeah, i think he does.
but then again, he did look like that photo, i think he does look like that photo, but you were younger then,
yeah.
but he does look like uncle bill.
mind you colin's getting more like your dad every day.
i know he is.
black welding glasses on, and he turned round and he made me jump.
like oh, colin, and then he go like this, you know,isn't it.
you know, he'll come running glasses.
yeah.
i can't do it.
and right, he made me heart jump, 'cos he looked just like your dad, and then a few days later, he's in garage again, and johnny come in and he said, god he said, he gave me a flaming heart attack out there.
i said, why, and he said, he turned round with these glasses on, then he said it was just like john's stood there.
i says, don't tell me, i said, he did the same thing to me the other day, and it were only within a couple of days of each other.
when he puts those glasses on, honestly he's his double.
i think it's the way he looks, like, if you know what i mean, you know like pull his face and like, look over glasses, i mean,he did it to me when did it to johnny.
he probably thought like.
he's like me dad, er me dad, he never had no patience, and our colin's just like him.
mind you, i'm like our colin as well in a lot of ways.
i haven't got a lot of patience.
but where where we're better off 'cos albert, he's calm, where you and our colin are both fiery tempered
yeah.
where, when i start, albert's
he, i tell you want he doesn't do, i shouldn't let you hear, but, when he, when him and me are arguing when we were younger, and me dad used to wind colin up, and wind me up, and i'd get madder and madder, and me dad used to love it.
but looking back, you know, and now, that's what colin does to me, he winds me bloody up,but i can't help it, because he gets me that wild, i should just, i should, i mean, how can you change his temperament.
i mean, i should just turn round and tell him where to go, but.
i think colin winds you up summat chronic
i know.
and instead of just
ignoring him.
ignoring him.
you don't, he and he going through bloody 
yeah, i know.
what
a where
no.
bird pooh on window.
but,i mean, er,
where the birds have poohed on me window flying past.
oh god.
i know aren't they dirty.
he thinks a lot about ya 
yeah.
right duck.
you know, i he mustn't pushed me, that man, who that keeps asking me out.
i mean, i sometimes, i mean, i admit i'm not most passionate person in the world but i then again i'm not
you're not by your bloody self.
i'm not frigid or owt
i can't see,are neither of you passionate?
no.
i keep saying to him, look colin, i said, i know a couple of times a week's enough for me, but that's worth waiting for, but when you're doing it three times and then get sick of it.
and he can't understand that.
yeah.
you think got 'er.
aye.
no.
no, don't do any more.
any more.
you've got enough.
don't rip 'em.
they're to blow your nose on.
i tried to get one.
i know, but you're wasting 'em.
i tried to make a 
it's alright like that.
oh yeah.
you're wasting 'em that back door shut!
it scared me.
go and tell auntie june to shut the back door.
else she'll be missing a bird.
june.
june.
that was close, wasn't it?
it was.
did it frighten ya?
yeah.
aye.
flies round your head, you know.
oh aye, gets stuck in your hair.
well, he's not going out.
i in a minute
he will get on your head an' all 
i will get on his head in a minute, again.
aren't we he's got 
he's got what?
got, your 
a bogie.
mm.
said this looks dodgy.
that's a funny talk, i'n't it it albert.
yeah.
talk.
talk, don't ya.
don't get scared of her now.
she's scared of me, ain't she, albert.
yeah.
wait a minute, albert.
behave, bloody scratching.
bloody big, stupid sod.
i'm making a bed for for barney.
and barney's in bed.
i need a blanket gotta blanket for 'im.
told you now, make your pillow,fellow, is barney got little little legs?
he he's in bed.
has barney got little little legs 
mm.
a little bit bigger don't ya.
look at that flaming dog.
come on, come on, throw them over there.
i wonder if there's any way you can actually check, you know, where he is, is there any way that 
watch me tea, now.
straight out, or,
well, what what do you think erm,
are you worried about how much money it's gonna cost ya.
no, because money's cost us less.
er, you know when they said we had to pay two hundred and fifty one for er, administration and search and survey.
it's come back, and it's under two hundred.
can i have a cup of tea, please.
then they said i've got to pay five hundred pounds for
do what, love.
i don't think allied dunbar will deal with anybody that's dodgy.
no.
er,
now, watch that tea.
yeah.
that's what he said.
are you ready.
i don't think they'd deal with anybody that dodgy.
er.
bert.
are you doing alright, are ya.
what they do, they look they look around and they weigh up up pros and cons up, and it it's like these insurance brokers, they ring all over to buy cheapest insurance for you, well, that's what allied dunbar are doing.
well, well, this is a broker, but it's a broker, so that's 
yeah.
you see, what it is, it's where they've been behind with their mortgage, we will pay a slightly higher rate, but it's only
yeah.
a matter of about, er, i think i think the mortgage now is ten point nine, and we'll be paying eleven point something,
yeah.
so it's only a matter of a
yeah, but one per cent 's a hell of a lot you know.
it's a penny in the pound.
yeah, but i mean it, it will drop, it will drop again.
but the thing is, also what i thought of once we gotta us a mortgage and got established, you could always remortgage and go into er like bradford and bingley, and come out like that 
yeah, once you get it back up to 
yeah.
yeah, well that's
well, i thought once we get
it'll not be a dodgy one.
put it in there, then.
it won't be, it's not forced to be a building society.
no, it isn't.
it gonna to be a building society.
oh, well, it might be abbey national.
no, it's come back, it's got target finance on it.
ah.
well that's o that is a finance company and not a building society.
if it says finance, it doesn't mean a building society.
nine times out of ten, it's a finance company.
same as er, mercantile, and
well, 'cos i mean, we dealt with mercantile, we dealt with key finance,
yeah.
er 
we've dealt with summat wagon.
key, that, when we first bo when we first bought our car through that scottis that bloody bank.
scottish amicable.
scottish amicable.
like widows.
they're always ringing up.
they ring up at seven and eight o'clock at night.
yeah.
asking us whether we want to borrow some money.
er, asking if there's anything we co , look at him walking about with that 
everything, everything, what oh, papers have got, has got legal and general on it.
mm.
so, i thought, well 
yeah.
it can't be a a dodgy 
i don't think it'll be anything dodgy.
it won't be dodgy.
oh.
but you can always, easily find out
what usually happens, though.
all you do, is pick the phone up and and get, oh now, what place do you ring.
i forgot what place you ring, but we're find out, and you ring up to see what they're, what the company's like.
you know, if it's a variable company.
yeah.
things like that, you could do that.
different companies take over, i remember that time we borrowed that four thousand pound.
we started out with key finance and we ended up with mercantile credit, didn't we?
yeah.
changed companies three times, that time we had that four thousand pounds.
you told me about that, yeah.
well said that it will be a sm a really small building society.
he says, that, 'cos er, it's not 
well.
big building societies are not prepared to give you rates, and small building societies are wanting to get going
you see, the only trouble with building societies is, it's the same when you buy a pigging house , they put the money on what you've actually borrowed every year.
yeah.
well, finance companies only, you only get the interest on what is left.
on the money that you owe.
yeah.
that's the difference.
and between them both, you can, you could i mean you take a ten thousand pound out with a mortgage, mortgage, and you could end up paying what, twenty thousand, twenty four thousand back.
yeah.
well, finance company.
you, you borrow ten grand or twenty grand whatever you like to, and you get a certain amount put on that, and that's it, it's fixed.
no.
you don't pay no more.
say you'll, you'll you'll get twenty thousand five hundred, that, if you buy, if you borrow twenty thousand just for er round figures.
you borrow twenty thousand, and the interest payments works out
benji
very high
he's alright.
it's very high, you know, the interest payments are very high, but for that money you've borrowed you'll only pay say, just for a a figure, five hundred pound back for that twenty thousand, five you know,
yeah.
five thousand pound, not.
not paying it for years and years all the time.
but if you borrow it from a in er mortgage company, you're gonna, you're gonna borrow twice that, you gonna have to pay twice that much back.
forty grand, you kn that's the only difference, and
i don't mind that so much though, 'cos they say we are paying a lot less back a month than other way.
but i just got one thing that i want, that they gonna send me owt dodgy like a loan shark bloke or owt like that, i mean you, you're bound to be a bit nervous, you know.
no, they won't send a loan shark.
you you can tell loan sharks, straight away, because the a p r's about twenty seven per cent .
ma maybe twenty nine, even thirty, depending, but if it er, mind you i don't know, because it's a long time since i had a look at 'em.
but, you know, when you when you borrow money, you get er, an interest rate, don't you, over so many,yo you've got to figure out ho how many years you're gonna pay it back.
you know.
if you say, oh, we'll take it over ten years.
well you've got ten years interest to pay, ain't ya.
so you pay the interest for for nine years, and they start paying your loan off.
we're still having trouble getting insurance, and er, anyway i phoned, and i wrote him again yesterday, and he's given this number, who er, who he's with.
'cos he had a right job,got plastic, 'cos he even plastics, i mean that's
yeah.
inflammable, ain't it.
anyway, er, the bloke who managed to get him insurance, this this, the premises are insured with him,
yeah.
so i thought, well, if he's already got, er, part of his insurance without having 
yeah, because he was in, paper, waste paper, and the fire insurance on that must have been colossal.
that's where cardboard and paper.
yeah.
sasha come in here, shut door.
he's not coming in.
but er, i can't understand why, because i mean, let's face it,he he's only using fibre-glass and they're not that flammable
no, what they're saying is.
not the flammable, it's the er indemnity, nobody can breathing it in who's in 
oh, yeah, yeah.
they're frightened like, in years to come, like, they're gonna try and make a claim against them 'cos their er, been on the chest, is summat like that.
yeah.
i, it's health and safety, yeah.
er.
through the health and safety, but.
eighty four we had this extension put up.
yeah.
sasha come in here.
but, after saying that,
there's a draught in 
what you gotta do, is make up your mind, what chemicals you're gonna use
yeah.
and then find out all about
what ya got?
don't know.
them particular chemicals and then submit it to the, the insurance company, what them's the only chemicals you use, and the company said this and that.
they told him that.
yeah.
yeah.
and they still
see he's off again,i bet it is.
just started itching.
well, he has just flown about.
i say, he's just flown round bloody house,
he has.
yeah.
oh.
i bet 
'cos i thought i'd look.
aye.
i couldn't 
it might be dust out of his wings.
yeah i every time i come here.
nineteen ninety one, ninety two.
i must have sensitive eyes
eighteen hundred and fifty two.
dear me.
we've had that pebble-dash nearly, nearly, it's nearly two years since they did that pebble-dash.
cost us two thousand nine hundred, and in two years, we've only paid, eight hundred, nine hundred 
a hundred
a hundred and forty pound,
we've paid off in two years, karen.
how much.
a hundred and forty pound.
in two years.
in two years.
now, if that had been a finance company, i would have paid a damn sight more.
but it cost us thirty seven pound a month.
but, last year, we put, no wait a minute, last year, we paid 'em four hundred and eight pound fifty two, and they put two hundred and seventy two pound fifty interest on.
so actually all we paid, was
thirty seven, per cent 
thirty odd, thirty 
that's round about thirty-seven per cent, innit, somewhere around there.
yeah, we paid thirty eight pound off it last year.
makes more.
it's ridiculous, you know, mortgage payments.
when you think of it.
i know.
and on 'ouse, they put eight hundred and ninety eight pound, you could say, nine hundred pound interest on 'ouse.
oi.
i don't know how they get away with mortgage payments like they are, because, you know,it it's totally unfair,
they are.
i mean, alright, we know you're handling large lumps of money, but when you think of it, if you, if you, borrowed it at a different rate, you know, same rate as you could do finance, 'cos which i think the government could do it and make a profit at it.
yeah.
you know what i mean.
instead of having all these different mortgage companies, abbey national and that, the government have er, have er, a whatsname to do it, they're wouldn't be half and a quarter.
i mean, it happens all over the world, you know, in in the in the especially in the whatsname countries.
i know.
communist countries.
everything's owned by the by the government and er, i know it's not a right good thing, like, but if it could work properly, it would be a damn good thing.
watch she don't bite ya.
i mean, communism in england,
in it's in it's proper form would be a wonderful thing, but er, it's on because er, it's only the rich people what make people poor.
i know.
the say as with damn education, like, at bloody tory sods, they took all blinking, we gi for al for all these people what's going to college, every time they drop on holidays they've got nothing to keep 'em.
no.
so i my opinion, what this government's doing is stopping stopping the lower class, well i say lower classes, the lo the the
isn't it.
poorer people, they stop 'em getting educated.
that i'm i'm almost convinced.
yeah.
it says, everything they're doing, it says, is going back to the eighteenth century, when you hear about these kath catherine cookson days, working for pennies and you can't get educated 
un cutting back,
they're cutting back on education.
oh, you're telling me 
they're making it so only the rich can be educated.
yeah, trying to turn it back into 
at the end of the day.
i mean, our colin's there waiting for a grant and what's happening.
sweet nothing.
now we're, it were in bloody paper last on thursday, they don't get nothing when they're on holiday.
no, they don't,
i mean, how the hell they supposed at eighteen year old without a job.
mm.
if they have a job, they don't get no grants.
and how can you have, hold a a job down
i don't think 
and do education at same time.
i'm not sure, but i think i don't got my family allowance until i were eighteen, i think, i think they used to give us 
let me keep our karen's 
oh.
so i've got a form to fill in, actually.
it should have gone back last week, and i 
it'll all stop when she gets her grant through.
don't knock me.
she said not necessarily.
i think it will stop them thought shit i'm not bloody going to declare it,
yeah.
she applied for a grant, and in, er in career, it says like,
sasha 
you'll, like you you 
no, you'll rip it.
left home, you know, we are, like, say our karen to leave home.
aye.
yeah.
and she were living in the parks.
get up here.
yeah.
they used to give 'em subsidies to help 'em pay the rent, they've stopped that, so they've either to gerra job, to help put supplement to pay in the, you know, their housing accommodation, or they've got to stop school.
in summer holidays, er, the grant don't they take that six weeks
off the grant.
off the grant, so that actually they get six weeks money less, through the year, than they should do, where they're used to paying all through year
for twelve months, now they don't.
now, they don't get anything for that six weeks that they're not at school.
no.
so, you know, any girl that's not living at 'ome.
she got to go out and work for that six weeks, to, to earn the money feed the 
and where can you get that bloody kind of money, only corner.
yeah, but where can you get a job.
well, that's it.
where can you job.
well, it's forcing the girls on to streets, ain't it.
yeah.
corner.
i mean, they're begging 'em you to ke they're begging you to keep 'em on at school, and yet you can't get no help to keep 'em on.
it's like other day,we were talking to this bloke like, and he were on about businesses, says you can't underst , oh he said something about finances,how difficult it is to get finance to start a business up and er, he said, i know, he said you can't me, he said.
you seen all these adverts about starting your own business, you know, governments like, you know, doing all these courses and making it out as though it's it's dead easy to get fi , you know hitting your head against a brick wall
yeah.
the only way you can start a business, is by starting it without insurance
straight off your own back, and then, you know, after it's running, get insurance.
yeah.
that ho ninety five per cent of firms do that.
regulate.
i mean it's 
i mean, look at laddo round there what's been broke into.
he's no insurance no insurance whatsoever, 'cos he couldn't afford it.
i know.
ours is gonna us about a thousand pound for insurance.
oh.
well, a thousand pounds not a lot, karen, but er it all depends what the, what what you gonna be insured for?
it's not.
i mean, even that, you're gonna you you gonna be insured for breaking in and break-ins and
yeah, i think it's everything.
i think it's 
that's what i mean, so what you're actually getting for your, thousand pound isn't a lot of money.
no.
i think it's covered for like, like you say, like for some reason, say you had a fire, and you had to stop work.
yeah.
i think it's covered for that.
covered for personal injury, er, covered for hundred thousand, for like, that's what trailers,they've got trailers in.
it's covered for everything.
i mean, you imagine somebody breaking in and setting fire to a trailer.
i mean, it's a lot of money when you think norma's paying nine hundred pound just for her car.
for that cabriolet.
to me, you think phew a thousand pound, but cer i mean, it's it ain't really very much, no.
it's a high insurance for a car.
what for car?
yeah.
right 
what how how comes that, then?
because, well, cabriolet's are classed as dangerous, aren't they, because they're soft roofed.
oh, aye.
it's not got no 
aye, this 
yeah,she's only been driving a year, two years.
soft top, yeah.
yeah.
well, i mean, look at our connie's.
yeah.
three hundred and eighty for third 
our connie's were five hundred and seventy.
now it's gone up to five hundred and seventy because that accident.
i mean, when you look at it, it's for a third party fire and theft.
christ, that's gonna be a thousand pounds on a full comprehensive, just about.
i know.
i'm still 
are ya.
well, i i i'll promise not to fondle.
need to tell her.
connie get in touch with me again, i told her that.
i don't know.
tell the truth innit.
aye.
how it goes.
he wouldn't be be able to keep that promise if he'd tried.
he won't promise.
who 
no, i don't.
i be you get to walk by yourself 
see that piece in free press about 
no.
it's a big piece.
give ya mummy that that free press.
what.
give mummy that free press 
that paper.
one.
yeah 
er for me eyes.
it's only one like you had for 
he does make a lot of dust.
i thought, when, last time i were here, i kept thinking, well, why's he only doing it, 'cos i know he never done it before.
when i thought, he says to colin, i said,bird, you know, like, when something started to 
wet your fingers 
mind, er 
might be dust.
mm.
i'm not worn no make-up for ages, 'cos me eyes seem to be like, itching all of a sudden.
aye.
so whether it's just that as well.
well, it can't be 'im, 'cos we always had 
yeah.
it's gotta be 'im.
yeah.
you bald headed mutt, aren't ya george.
old baldy.
he's can he talk?
yeah.
he says 
he's baldy.
he's says 
baldy.
baldy george.
you know margaret, she's got that new suite round there.
you seen it?
no.
i ain't been round.
oh.
it's it's er,
benji.
benji, come off.
i didn't, i mean, i don't like small the right brightly coloured or what, but it looked like it were coloured like this, like this kind of colouring.
yeah.
it it's blue.
i'm sure, she said it's blue.
it's got some cream in it as well ain't it.
well,more, so i couldn't see, but i just, to me it was just like er, thought it was like minky coloured.
but mind ya,more like a, but what i was gonna say is,
suppose to be a but i mean 
on back of it, on back of it, she's got like all them tapestry pictures laid over back of it.
yeah.
she got, same on chairs, all, you can hardly see the suite, 'cos she's got, she says, and er, i says to her, i says to her, oh it's nice your suite, innit.
she says yeah, if i can keep it clean, she got all cushions covered up, well like er, er 
keep it clean, there's only them two buggers.
i know, but what's the point of having a new suite, and having old covers on it like that.
they make me laugh, when they sit in 'ouse with blanket round them, so they don't have to turn 'eating up.
i don't 
aye, you go in there and it's empty that other 
that's empty.
i know, i see it.
i tell you what, you to make mistakes in your life, i mean and, i just, well one of those things that that i'm pleased about, is that i just george when 
don't work.
aye.
when what?
when i stopped with colin.
oh well.
you don't know how green, how green the grass is until you actually stand
you can't go till your dad comes.
why, i'm going home all by myself, then.
well, get off there.
get on with it.
we do 
you'll end up with a smack bum.
benjy, will you leave her alone.
are you have you told her to leave me alone?
yeah.
no.
get on ya benj 
do you always smack him, when he plays 
yeah, i smack his bum.
does he play with dad.
no.
why he plays does he play with toilet paper?
no, he eats it.
no, look ain't that 'orse going back 
where?
you've missed it, it's gone now.
i mean, when you think of what he started with, karen,
yeah.
he borrowed money from his father-in-law.
yeah.
is that which one?
it's gone.
which.
me dad, if if me dad had done what 
what's that, that that young girl here says they won't have nowt do with them at all.
any relations.
well, well richard won't.
i know.
er.
she's is his cousin.
is that maybe the other side, but i don't be wendy's side.
she's his cousin.
'cos i says to her one day, well why don't you ask yer, your relation, if he'll er, if he'll give yer a job.
give us a job, she said, he won't even pass the time of day with us.
i said, well, i, there must be summat there, out there, she said no, he said, she said it goes back a long time.
but er, she says, never even speaks to us.
and if we if if we ring up, he puts he just puts the phone straight down, soon as you tell him who it is.
probably goes back from when they went 
he said, i, she said i can live without him anyhow.
it'll drop off, that.
it won't.
it will.
come on,yella.
i found some mighty muscle in garage, you know.
how much.
you know that big round tin.
i, not how much is in it, but it'll probably be about that much in bottom.
i know wanting to do this room, really, 'cos it would be too cold.
get away with one.
i wish we'd just too cold.
you won't, as far as we're having to buy coal at that price.
no, i know.
every time we have any spare money, it has to go on pigging coal.
how much.
you know that big round tin?
yeah.
i don't know how much is in it, but probably be about that much in bottom.
might be really, couldn't too cold.
get away with one.
i wish we'd afford some i mean, it's cold.
you won't while we're having the buy coal, at that price.
no, i know.
every time we have any spare money, it has to go on pigging coal.
we'll probably just buy some, and that lad'll ring up.
he probably will.
especially if this mild weather stops.
but it is mild today, ain't it.
yeah.
that's not a moo cow.
get down.
it is.
it is.
it isn't.
mooo.
that's it.
that's what moo cows do.
you're crackers.
it is.
it is a moo cow.
i mean like er, eileen was saying summat yesterday, she said, she said i don't er, have at home, she said, i decided to i said i'm frightened, and sometimes knows i'm not frightened.
i said, i'm frightened someone's in the 'ouse, i'm frightened not waking everybody well, well what do you do, i says, you don't, unless you have a go, you don't, i mean, if i'd turned out you know, you don't really know.
i know.
i mean, that
you might, and then again, you might be a millionaire inside three months.
yes, i said to her, think about it, i i was that frightened, i frightened meself to death, and i i wouldn't i wouldn't.
i hated it.
that's what i used to do every time i thought about selling 'ouse 
you just got to do it.
yeah.
i thought about it, and thought about it, and then then changed my mind.
but this time i decided it's what i want to do and bugger it.
if we don't sell it, we we haven't lost anything.
oh well.
sell it till we move.
i honestly think myself 
as long as we're not worse off than what we were before we moved.
i honestly think meself, that i might have a have a couple of hard months, maybe three, first three months might be a bit difficult for me.
oh, it probably will be.
well, i think, once he gets established, and once he starts getting work in, i think meself, that work will start, won't say rolling in, but i think the work'll start coming in after about three months and i can get established.
oh we can always lend you a couple of ten pences.
i know.
i know we're hard up, but you can ten pence.
you never know, might be to make enough money to take you out somewhere for a decent christmas do.
oh 
yeah, christmas party.
yeah.
yeah, might.
you might.
want to come work for him, did i tell ya.
who?
him that used to work with our colin.
yeah.
you know, er, well,
aye, the 
it, he would 
it's gotta be better than being on dole, innit.
no, i don't know.
oh, is that 
no he's, no he's got a good job.
he works at with plenty of overtime.
benjy.
colin phoned him up, and er, it it he mentioned, how he was starting up, and he said he might be interested, anyway colin phoned him a couple of weeks ago to see if he was still interested in.
anyway he says he'd pay him the same money as what he's on there, 'cos he'd have to really, wouldn't just say, say 
you've, you've got to, but how the hell get it, if he don't get paid up front.
what do ya mean?
well, wages,
got to 
well, it have to come out of capital, at first.
yeah.
put by ten or eleven thousand, or whatever it is, just come out of that.
yeah.
yeah.
so we got money coming in.
mm.
our karen.
but er, i mean, i says, can't we manage without him, can't you manage by yourself, but colin says he can't really, because
he needs somebody.
yeah.
well, colin's gotta be able to do a lot of office work, he's gonna be out doing quotes, you know what i mean, so he's going have to have somebody there.
yeah.
yeah.
or i would apply for er, family credit straight away.
get coming in, i'm gonna say, yeah, we've got ten thousand pounds.
but we don't know how long it'll be, before get any money coming in, and if you go on to family credit, you get it for six months, so that'll be our wages.
so then, what what comes out of business we'll pay him anyway.
yeah.
you might have too much in bank for family credit, that ten thousand, it's only eight, innit?
it's got, it's gotta know what increase, when you running a business.
yeah.
oh, i don't know.
if you apply for it straight away, could you say you don't know how much monies coming in.
how much money your gonna coming in.
his dad's in a new business, anyway,bec so you should get forty quid a week at least, anyway.
thirty-five now,
is it thirty-five,
yeah.
bloody hell.
yeah.
it's like everything else
i mean, that's seventy pound, you wouldn't have had, anyway, ain't it.
no.
oh.
i ju i mean, it, now it's just getting me, more depressed than nowt else, i mean, i just wish that they'd phone and say yeah, we've got you a insured.
and then, i mean, 'cos we daren't say that to accountant know, to have 'ouse valued, 'cos what's point in, i mean, anybody said to us, er, get it sent off, you'll find, you're, somebody will insure ya.
but what if they don't.
you've lost all your ain't ya.
ya, so that's the end of the world.
even if you find out they won't.
no.
why don't you get a free put on market.
no, the on the company's, that's coming up with all the money got to 
oh aye.
do the valuation.
and they ought to form value of what, so they know how much it's worth, what the company that's gonna earn them the money want the money for the valuation.
it's just another way of making a bit more money out it.
that's it.
well, it's same as when you buying and selling 'ouses.
you when it comes out, when, the people that's, mind me cigarette, darling, the people that's gonna buy your 'ouse, who, mortgage company comes out and values it, they've got that to pay as well haven't they.
yeah.
the same as, i, them that buys our 'ouse, they'll have to pay whatever it cost for 'em to value our 'ouse, see if it's worth lending money, we'll have the same thing with er bungalow, down there.
yeah.
it's only money i mean, how long are they 'ere.
yeah.
ten minutes.
mean, that woman come out, when when we had this done, didn't she,
mm.
to to see if it were satisfac she weren't here three minutes.
no.
what was that for, for 
you know when we had extension put up.
oh yeah, yeah,
well,
did it value.
they sent they sent 'em out from er, abbey national and we had to pay, well we did pay 'im fifty pound, people that put the building on paid.
she keeps getting up.
she's not.
she is.
she'll bite you, and our whisky can 
she scratched him outside, didn't she.
and, if she were here three and a half minutes, that's all she were 'ere, and it and it 'em fifty quid.
yeah.
bloody ridiculous.
it's all a bloody money making racket.
another thing is, i'll tell why we don't want er, they always having valuations, they are, they come and value it, and then they give us money.
that means we're gonna be paying extra eleven thousand with money we ain't got.
yeah.
that's another reason we're daren't send it off.
yeah.
yeah, because if ya, if ya, get it before ya start your business.
you've still got it to pay as soon as you get it.
yeah.
trust them, because it's in their at the moment.
well, i still believe in and i don't pushed around and say, no you can't have money, no you can't get insured, and so that means others.
you haven't lost anything have ya?
well, just er disappointment, i suppose.
for what
well, yeah,
then again, i mean, i 
there's always summat else you can go and do.
you know that, doing that, fabricating, and things like that, you know like actual welding and that type of er, we wouldn't make as much money out of that as you probably would
no.
no, you'll be, you'll be stuck to it, all time, and it's not good for 'im.
no.
and it kills your eyes welding.
benjy.
but as he said to me, why don't you go welding.
i says, the point is i've got bad eyes as it is,
yeah.
what's the point in making them worse.
i know.
so, jump in me box, and i ain't jumping in me box blind, for the last ten years.
i'll manage the way i am.
you see, that works where i
benjy
aye,
benjy, look at 'im.
benjy
where are you, when it's gonna be, he said corner, then we'll make an office and a little canteen in that anyway.
then there's another long unit right at side of it, just enough to get one trailer in.
i said, i said, if we do get going, and we do start finding out that it's going alright, he'll turn that, into like er, shop er, blasting shop.
and like,
yeah.
a spray area, then
yeah.
employ a sprayer.
so, i mean, we know what we want, but it's them and not us, i mean, it is frightening to start a business up, 'cos we don't know how much work we'll be getting, but, i mean,
well, it's same for anybody starting any business, ain't it, you don't know if it's gonna work as well.
it might go well for the first three or four months, and then all of a sudden we might have a lapse in a few months ,
yeah.
you could be struggling to keep it above 
yeah.
and especially, you know, these bloody big firms, they do not like paying bloody bills.
no.
i mean, you could have as as much as two or three thousand pound owed to ya, but your business will still go under.
yeah, because of it.
because of it.
yeah.
they don't look on them things, how much you've got owed out to ya.
i know.
when you look you see everything's a bloody risk,
let's hope he gets off the floor.
walking across roads a risk, ain't it.
yeah.
it's ju just if you've got the nerve to do it.
it's a risk with these buggers, what's in power, aye, it's no matter what whose in power.
i got 
i think if labour gets in, you'll not get it tough at all.
i can tell you that, now.
oohh.
what?
oohh.
you feel like er, that's whose, like ex soldiers throughout the company, and he said to colin er, he said, how many people are you thinking about employ , our colin seems to think there'd be enough work to keep 'im going, like, he says, he says, well how many people are you thinking about employing, he says, only only me and me like, it's oh, oh, he says, there's plenty of work to keep two of going, he said, i thought you employed about six.
so if he thinks that colin do have six working for him, and he's got enough work for six, then surely there's gonna be plenty of work for two of 'em.
yeah, but what he means by six is, he gets the jobs done quicker 
yeah, but then you still got six wages to pay out, haven't ya.
yeah.
that's it.
he probably will have six later on, if he gets it off, but the thing is, i mean, he'll need somebody to drive wagons round yard, and half the time,y you know, he'll be sat doing nothing, scratching his nose.
them's the people he's got to be wary of, the people that want a job, but don't wanna work for it.
there's a hell of a lot in broadway and stainford,
yeah.
round about here.
mind lee's a, lee's a good worker, he says that, he wants, you know, best worker what he can 
yeah, but i mean, working for a mate, is different to working for a firm.
yeah.
you know, i mean
well, he's not a mate, he won't, he's working with him when he were at er over in brad oh, here's richard now.
aye, you'd better jump in bed with him,
oh dear, no but he is, richard is the one with the comical magazine,laughing bursts two incomes.
i think that's part of 
yes.
look, slow down, or you're driving me mad.
oh yuk.
weekend, aren't we?
get settled.
pity she can't go as well, you could have had a quiet weekend.
where's gavin like, is he with colin?
no, in the barn, 'cos they went yesterday morning, and er, they end up sleeping last night,due back today 
i was i was 
don't make sense.
mmoo
if i don't 'ave 'im, i'll be having 'im for a, you know, two days at a time.
mmoo.
well, if you 'ave 'im two days at a time, it's better than nowt at all innit.
how's that came and stop 'ere.
how long she's got to go for other one.
twelve,, he's got her ten days.
ten days.
yeah,could it 
could be ten, between ten and twelve days, couldn't it.
george, your birthday's not twenty-first ain't it,
no.
i thought it were twenty sixth.
that's true.
well, you'll have to wait while 
a week before 
oh, i said george,bed with ya, i said, that's worse 
oh benjy lie down, what matter with ya.
he's worse than your father ain't he.
lie down now.
look.
he's coming in.
lie down.
snuggled up on that blanket, little un.
lie down .
you'd do it for for bert.
he's he's like that with everybody.
he's like with everybody, ah, give us a cuddle.
yeah, but he won't keep bloody still.
if you're cuddling me, you won't move 
what were you saying about er,
two hours old.
look in me dad's then.
maybe in february after this worst month of year.
but, after everybody's birthdays and anniversaries in bloody february.
aye.
it must be the summer what does it.
aye, it's always 
it's linda's anniversary tomorrow.
it's her birthday on on wednesday, it's our on twelfth, and whenever our dawn has this baby, that's gonna be in february.
yeah.
it's your birthday, me mum's birthday.
have we got any buggers in march?
it won't matter whether it's born on your margaret's birthday or not, it still won't get nowt.
it won't get nowt.
it were born on,yvon yvon hang on, get it yvonne's birthday is the first of february, and mine's the twenty first, but she'll be a year older than me, so she's like a year and twenty days
yeah.
exactly older than me.
first and twenty-first.
you want to do what she's doing now.
who's it for.
oh.
i thought it was that wife.
oh, norma.
oh no.
oh no, not 'er.
norma.
pack one, her.
i know, i call that, but i mean, i don't down the town,but her.
but i, i didn't think i like that.
mum, mum watch this, are you watching.
you have to lose a race now and again.
yeah, but she ain't even,
are you watching,
er, what was was i saying, the i don't know what george has all the customers, i mean, she's isn't even particularly 
isn't she, she's not what you call really bonny, she ain't got a right bonny face.
i know she's got a nice figure.
she's as thick as two short planks, she's got a dirty mouth.
i mean, i, you know, maybe
i can't understand your cross.
i know.
cannot understand or something.
their as different as chalk and bloody cheese.
plenty of different people cheap, er,the other people who have different likes to you, but what, what you might think's attrac attractive, somebody else'll
yeah.
won't be, you know.
to be quite honest, without talking like a school on a fence.
they're not very happy, they ain't been happy for a while, but it's getting worse,wh is, what is them now is, you know i say things to colin, and co i mean, colin'll tell me like, you know, you know,over there, and er, he's latest thing is, they built this little office.
you know when you go into on the right, er a coal-house and a wash- house ain't there.
yeah.
the coal-house part it's is quite wide now we've done it, big coal-house, but altered 
and then it twists, and like a small office, and when when i were there, after michael had shown it me and colin, he says oh, he says, er i'm come in here to get get out of way, and you know, he was like telling me, i thought i don't want to be a fiddle, because it's alright telling colin, the boys
telling yeah,
yeah.
ain't it, yeah, it's not like a woman telling you problems.
don't knock my dusters off.
anyway, i just said, well, summat about about what i said, i says, yeah,nice to get away from it all, ain't it, to be by yourself, and that's all i said, and i think he knew that i i didn't want to 
but, and he said to colin
oh shit.
said, he said, yeah, he said, it'll be ideal in here, he said, i can put, he said, put a full lock on door, and he said, i can come in here, he said,and so i thought, ah.
yeah but, there's not many people that you can 
sasha, behave.
i don't think i know anybody that hundred per cent 'appy.
well, i think it's got a lot to do with the climate we're living in, you know,
rushing about
there's that much, there's that many people out of work, there's and 
you know, there's that many pressures on people.
i mean, it's like like colin and i, i mean, like we're happy but then, no were not hundred per cent happy at all,but like, er, like some people i can't if you get upset, some people eat more, some people eat less, or you know, some go into recluse, some get and like colin,
he's when he's depressed, he's goes like a raving sex mania, he
i'm bloody glad albert don't, he'll drive me out of a bed.
he takes all, takes all his 
why didn't you stop 
no i think every 
i think everybody's got themselves summat some faults.
nobody's hundred per cent perfect.
i mean, i don't think colin's unhappy where he wants to do, then an offers an offer, like either they go in and make share, but if they work all day.
no, it's not er, it's so much i mean, he's at work all day,and he works all bloody hours that god sent, when they want, when they got down,
yeah.
and what happens.
he's got to build an office where he can go and let, sit in it, can't abide 
that's right.
summat wrong somewhere.
now look at our margaret and peter.
they've got no family, so they've got no pressures like that, they haven't got any money problems well they're not 'appy.
they live two entirely separate lives.
yeah, i know.
there's is just a marriage of er convenience.
convenience.
innit it.
yeah, it's convenient 
it's a way of life, they've lived together that long, like, they don't want to 
if when you and pete had that trouble, if our margaret had er been working, i honestly think she would have left pete.
i know.
but the only thing that our margaret could come up with, was why should i, why should i leave me home and sell up, she said, when all my life, he's had money from the house.
he'll have the money from the house, plus a wage every week.
she said, and what will i have, she said, just the money from the house.
she said, and where do i live.
you know, he can move back home with his mum, she said, i suppose i can go back home to me mum, well then i've got to look for a job, you know.
mm.
and i honestly think that was the only reason that she stopped for pete.
yes.
because, she's she, he he were gonna get a wage every week.
yeah.
you know, and she worked all them years, and then when she weren't working, she have no money coming in every week.
yeah, but she's got all the shares.
she hasn't, she got rid of them all.
aye, not with bl not with 
yeah, but you could see, you could see, that, i mean pete were getting about hundred and twenty pound a week.
yeah.
we'll he had his money he won't have to touch, he could live on that hundred and twenty pound a week.
oh, aye,
and he could start again.
find another woman and buy another house and start again.
mm.
i mean like jeremy and kay, i mean, they're not happy.
they pretend they are, but i mean like, he's he's 
they've got to do, aren't they, i mean, after all bloody harm they caused.
yeah, you know, you know how flaming miserable and mardy he is.
yeah.
he's another one.
but you see when he living with ange, maybe he were younger then, but i mean like, when he were living with ange, he had all the women as you know, plus he had kay, plus he had, you know, ange, he had everything, there was kay,as well, weren't he, now he can't.
no.
but then again, if, even kay over there with she said something about er, oh we've been out, but, i told you i went to a last monday.
yeah.
and she said something about, oh we've been to that new pub, she said, mind, she said, we had to come home at half past nine, she said, he'd had enough, she said, he were ready for bed, god, she said he's turning into a right old man, and you know what i mean, she didn't, she wouldn't,
exactly.
she didn't realise what she was saying as such, but i thought, and i thought, yeah i know.
yeah, well he is, what ten years.
thirteen you got from 'er.
thirteen years difference.
she's, how old am i, twenty-two, so she's twenty-nine.
same age as our kim
yeah.
oh she'll be coming at thirty this year, won't she?
you see, she's just coming into her prime, and now he's he's just leaving it.
yeah.
he's really forty-three this year.
don't work.
he'll be forty-three this year, and she'll be thirty this year.
the only thing, time that happens is, that is you hear about,
look george 
if yo if one's fifty over sixty,
he's plucking his feathers out.
then it works.
but when your younger it, or even when you're young, you know, it does.
but when you get into your forties 
well, it's like, i mean like,
it works.
i'm me and colin are settling down a lot compared to what we were five year ago.
i mean, like, like now, we were a, say even two and three years ago and somebody'd said to me, are you going to spain, and i would have said, yeah, we'll go to majorca, lovely, we could stop out all night, do what you want.
now only three or four years later i'd say of yeah we're go to somewhere a bit quieter, so that kids can go to bed of a night time, we could have a apartment.
yeah, that's right, yeah.
yeah.
and that, i'm changing that way, but, if our kids have to be home with the, a group, when i went to see squeeze.
and it were a good group, i wanted to go see.
our think nowt about going and watching 'em.
johnny won't go anywhere like that.
kay's wanted to do what we do, and johnny's not interested.
yeah.
like went to fair, she went to the riding, he .
he said, that's ya like a big kid, going up fair.
i mean, look at 
i mean, that's all she is, yet, she's she's only a bloody 
yeah, twenty nine.
well, i like to go on rides.
i go on rides, june won't go on.
i know.
yeah, well, that's what i mean,
go on, shit.
the thing is, like he is even apart apart from 'im being a lot older than 'er, he acts older.
i mean, he acts like his always, er forty three, he acts like he's like, fifty sometime, well you you're older than, you know what i mean, he acts older than you, because as you say, you'll go on fair rides and 
aye.
mind you, we're we're getting on 
no, but you know what i mean, i mean,
yeah, i know what you mean.
fifty,
fifty-three.
four.
fifty-three,
fifty-four.
i'm fifty-three 
your fifty-four next birthday you're only a couple of months off.
well, i'm fifty-three.
he's fifty-three.
'cos you probably do more things.
you know younger things, than what he does.
and he gotta 
yeah.
he should be keeping himself young for 'er.
mm.
instead of 'er keeping him young, she's, he's making her old.
that's it, yeah.
i think chris on about moving to blinking gainsborough, now.
gainsborough.
colin were telling me today.
yeah.
he said they've had twelve 'ouses them, since they've been married.
god.
i were talking to him on friday, and er, i mean, they've not been down there five minutes.
oh no, road.
yeah.
mind, i never been there 'fore, oh i can't remember, a few years, can't re , last time i've been there.
mm.
well la , last year, when you were doing that painting for er, derek.
mum.
wait a minute.
er, derek, paid him off,
yeah.
and got johnny to finish it.
mummy.
and er, i i saw chris quite a lot, then, but i mean, they're not living how they used to do, i mean, they they were always boozing and that,
yeah, i know.
she said they'd they'd cut down on boozing and everything.
but er,
give up, sasha.
i says to tommy, why don't they buy one of them big caravans, i said, because every time they get 
mum.
it must be costing them a fortune, when every time they move, they alter 'ouse, they decorate and put new carpets down and furniture 
my god, we'll have to 
yeah, well, i mean, i mean not 
yeah but i mean, twelve times, karen.
i know.
you're saying like us, i mean, we wouldn't want to move again, i mean, if we move again, it's 'cos something's gonna happen with his business, ain't it,
yeah.
yeah.
but, or because same thing like it were a couple of years ago, with finances.
i mean, how how olds their oldest , is it eighteen or seventeen.
is it mandy whose older,
yeah.
i mean, i thought mandy's er, eighteen, nearly nineteen.
so.
oh no, she must be older because er, vicky's twenty she must be about eighteen.
no, she's same age a treena, twenty.
so in twenty years, they've had twelve 'ouses
yeah.
and you've been married how long?
twelve.
twelve years, and you've had three.
three.
christ, you better not be married twenty years, karen, you might end up with another twelve.
i know, but how many's your pete and margaret have, they had er,
er, they moved, they went on to 
one, two, three.
didn't they.
yeah, then t' 
yeah, then, now they went to aye, they went to oval, went to bungalow 
yeah some four times.
four, yeah, four or five times, yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
there's only us who never moved.
oh yeah.
angie how long's me mother been in there.
i'm forty-eight this year, me mum must have been in there nearly fifty year.
and we've only moved into here.
in actual fact your pete and margaret have moved more, in the twelve years that they were married, i know they've been married longer now, but when,th they been married twelve years and they moved four times,
yeah.
we've been married twelve years, and we've moved three times, so we haven't moved as much as them, really.
no.
no.
i couldn't keep moving and 
i couldn't move like that.
i mean, a couple of moves, is fair enough, yeah, but bloody twelve.
no.
and it's not as if they made money every time they moved, 'cos they haven't, 'cos they lost money on that 'ouse, there.
yes.
i won't it.
well, chris said they moved because er,
give up.
er, transport, you know.
it would be difficult for 'er to get back'ards and for'ards, and she were on her own all the time.
yeah.
that's why they moved.
but they moved down, they moved from 'ere because he says, er,
too noisy, weren't it.
too too noisy and dogs were keeping them up all night.
oh.
so i don't what the excuse is for moving from road.
same thing, 'cos it's noisy down there.
yeah.
i could scare you, auntie june.
could ya.
yeah.
go on then.
why people think it's noisy for us on a double main road, but it ain't really.
well, you get used it in don't ya.
when our norma come and stop here, she she was,
used to sleep 
i don't know how you sleep all night with all that traffic going up and down.
no.
but we never hear it.
you don't hear it.
no, we didn't.
i remember one first night we stopped there, buses were coming at crack of dawn,
yeah.
it must have been about four or five o'clock in morning, and now we never hear any traffic.
no.
no.
perhaps you get used to.
yeah.
but we don't hear many people, on a road like that.
no.
i were thinking about that bungalow, and, well actually it's as far from our road, nearly as far from our road to there, as what is it from bungalow window to road.
where to yeah.
it really is 
know, thinking about people walking back as far as t' shopping my point.
there nowt much difference in, from t' garden 
i think the only trouble over there, is your to gonna have people parking in front of ya gate, like when they go to the chip shop.
they won't 
yeah.
they won't 'cos 'cos er, i'm afraid if they do, i shall be out straight away at 'em.
well, it's only a matter of parking at, parking your own car as well 
i'll clamp the bugger, i'll buy a wheel clamp and wheel clamp it.
park here at your risk.
it'll be awkward getting cars in and out, when you know, with one more to be out and, all these cars in road, like, but.
that's the only difficulty.
you'll probably end up say, leaving one on road all night.
yeah.
don't hurt i mean,
oh, not leaving one on bloody road 
well, we could put 'em at night time, it's just through time, if one backs in, comes in behind other.
yeah.
it's a one way street and all ain't it, that makes it worse.
why does it make it worse?
well, we don't have to have a problem, do we?
no, but i mean.
it's like barbed wire, i mean that's, sasha come in 'ere.
what backs onto that bungalow, karen.
another 'ouse.
another 'ouse.
another 'ouse.
er, i told you what backs onto it, you know the right small on , what you were going to see that time, but on the side.
yeah.
we went to see that,
oh.
that's what backs onto it.
oh.
well, at least they won't be looking int' bungalow will they, with it all being down,
no.
and that.
yeah, that's straight behind it.
oh.
not like them, i mean, they can see straight into our 
i'm not sure, but i think it was mr that had that bungalow built.
you know mr 
yeah.
somebody told me that he had that built.
oh.
years ago before he had that 'ouse built on road.
oh.
what you doing with the a cup of tea.
sasha.
she's there.
she's there.
come 'ere.
georgie babes.
them can be about, i mean, that's what it probably is.
that's what it is.
dust, yeah.
oh.
it's not so much now, it's so much that,
it's not his feathers, it's dust 
when he 
when he does that, and he flaps, the dust off his body,
oh.
you know like they're always picking their feathers.
yeah.
well, they have right tiny little scales, coming off their feathers,
oh.
for the feathers to open out, like it's like wax.
wax.
oh, yeah,li like like birds have.
yeah, like birds have,
yeah, like what they have on the crest.
yeah, yeah.
well, that's that's what they're doing.
the problem is, it's dry.
they're pulling it off, and when he's shed, he, all floated 
is that what causes that parrot to 
yeah.
yeah.
to er, what call it.
yeah.
we were 
no.
took us an age to cut it.
on there.
yeah.
oh,, or summat daft like that, they call it.
but, it's like sum , it's like some people of being allergic to different things, you know.
no, he wants to stay out, he pulls his feathers out when he's in cage.
how do you off feathers, and not off birds.
you do, you get it off any bird.
yeah but some are not, not so much 'im 'cos he don't shed his feathers as much as 'im.
'e's not half, 'e's not half as dirty as 'im.
i mean, you only have to look at top of that cupboard, and it were don't yesterday.
yeah.
that's what i say.
everywhere's white, everywhere white.
june, i did i did all dusting and polishing one day
he's upside down.
and this silly bugger's out, playing about.
heard that again.
and when she came in, she said, you haven't done dusting.
i said, i have, but i bloody have.
but she wouldn't 'ave it.
you old grot bag.
but, i mean, she's done it today, and what she's saying now.
i haven't done it today, luv.
well, you should have done.
i haven't got round to it yet.
i tell you, within an hour of you doing it, it's just as bad.
yeah.
dust.
come in.
i probably saw it,
hello.
i mean, before, before we got 'im, we could dust and it used to stay all right.
actually dust off 'im, you, some of it you can't even see.
the only time you'd see it, as if be in the light 
when it settles, i think.
you know, you see it then.
when it settles on summat dark.
i know, i pulled i told you, i'm having deliver milk round, didn't i, they're ever so good.
i'd only had it round about ten minutes and i thought 
aren't you beautiful.
yeah.
up there.
i was into 
yeah, it's cold outside.
he ain't.
he won't
he's watching.
he's watching, ain't ya, george.
oh, that vick that vick cough syrup's better than that bloody veno's.
yeah.
yeah.
better than veno's, 'cos veno's like water.
i'm watching you.
but that's good.
i'm watching him flying about.
i watch him flying about.
you 
last time he flew out, you were frightened.
our tom don't like it when he flies and yet, they're not bothered about him, that one, that's the one that bites.
he's more frightened of you than what you are of him, actually.
i know.
i know.
georgie.
hello chuck.
georgie 
no, you'll deafen 'im.
georgie.
come out.
hello bubby 
bubby 
our bubbs.
bubby.
what you're doing.
george.
mind you, i think they were, going back to george and norma again, i mean like, how she cuts his hair,style, and colin'll say to me,
oh, aye.
i mean, that, maybe that's the way they do it, ain't it, you know what i mean, they'll say, he sometimes when you think of some of the things he does like that.
yeah.
mind you i'll tell you
that mohican cut.
i'll tell you summat.
on a were it last sunday, yeah it were last sunday when i took off, er lisa always goes down to 'elp 'er, when, like what, you know when eileen cut her finger, what did she do to her finger?
she did have it all bandaged up, she were she were cleaning toilet at bottom, and er, apparently there was a piece out of it and she didn't know, and she wiped round it, it sliced it, and it were bleeding like mad, well she came across to our 'ouse, and we weren't in, and then she went to kevin's and she had she had it, but it, now it's just like a line now,
yeah.
yeah.
but should think it had gone deep.
well, lynn did her shift last sunday morning, and when i went home, lisa were home.
yeah,
and she says to lisa, er, when you get to end of shift, you you rule off, what you have sold, everything you've sold, but next shift starting here's your daddy.
she said to lisa, rule off when you've finished,
for june to starting, and then she said, did you rule off when i told ya.
well, she went, like balling and shouting at the top of her voice, i mean, she talks to terry like shit.
i mean, i shout and our 
let your dad in sasha.
but it's it's like, i don't think 
i don't think she can.
she'll be able to open it, karen.
if i spoke to 'im, like lisa spoke to terry, i'd i'd gerra clip round bloody 
you would that.
she talks, she talks to him like 
told me how she talk to terry.
i'm bloody authorised and no second thoughts.
no second thought at all.
cage.
sh she shouts at the top of her voice at 'im.
aye.
is that the one 
aye, he's on top of the cage.
they're right.
she's right.
can i come in.
no wonder she's bundle of nerves.
she makes and she's as green as them shelves.
yeah.
yeah.
mind you he is useless, terry.
tell the truth, give you that.
my knees i tell you what you can't, you know 
yeah.
oh deary me.
terry's a good bit older than 'er.
oh deary me.
i think he's twelve year older than 'er.
do you know what's up with 'er.
it'll be on in a bit, col.
you can't.
oh.
yeah, he does look old, don't her.
yeah.
you should see what he's done to his hair.
talking about george.
she's made 'im have.
he's had, skin head.
his hair's only about that long, all over.
what you mean, col. 
terry's
yeah.
it don't look bad, actually.
mind you, it were falling out that much everywhere else, he wouldn't know the difference, would he.
no.
but you know, but she talks to him like like, nobody.
well, she'll say to him, put kettle on and butter some bread, and he'll sit there, and he's smoking, and he's continuing what he's doing, you know, and she'll go and do what she's doing, and she, have you flicking arse-hole you to do, and, you know, any, it just goes in that ear, comes out 'ther ear, and just sallies on, and don't take blind bit of notice.
i mean, she's got a right squawky voice,
oh, horrible.
'cos i always when she talks she's squawking.
oh, when she squeaks,
yeah.
when she when she does get up a few octaves, i cringe.
and because it, she screeches don't she.
yeah.
come on,voice is like.
high pitch.
yeah.
well we're done for next week.
what the 
oh saw.
what's saw young lad.
chain saw i got.
colin, you know anybody's that's got any white elusion at all.
we've er, just give two gallon away.
oh.
mind you, honestly, i wouldn't have put it on a dog kennel.
honestly.
i only wanted it for a 
yeah, honestly, i wouldn't put it on, if you were stopping a week.
she did all our garage round it, she's said it worth it, well, it's been there twelve months, she wouldn't put it on anywhere else.
she says it 
it probably wanted stirring.
na, it was cheap.
what a load of rubbish.
what.
that priest trying to to take a curse off that i've heard a lot of excuses, half are bloody mad.
has he bought as well.
mm.
oh he's showing he cares.
there's a big piece in there about ain't there.
ah, yeah.
yeah, 'cos she's just altered it.
it's opening to public.
yeah.
to civvies.
i mean, i couldn't anyway.
well, you can go, it's not er, it's
well go up there for our christmas dinner,
yeah, when you get your 
no rules on the general public, there wasn't a general public,
it was only collar and 
tie.
tie.
but now it's casual.
but now he's put a casual bar in as well.
he's opened another bar, he when they went bust.
they 
aye.
doesn't want 
said the menu w ,
the menu was second to none.
the meals were second to none, albert.
mm.
what.
always on about it.
paper.
what you want paper for.
it's in middle.
no peter wants about them finally closing his business down.
he's still obliged to 
no, i mean, the c g whittakers.
i was working there other day.
ha.
i said people you.
i went to put back what he had somebody take out.
he were that as well.
well, you know, i didn't mean exactly the middle, go back 
well, i don't bloody know, alright if you can say middle, you mean middle.
papers.
stop shouting.
shut up, you.
no.
go on.
you shut up.
there's a picture of it going,
many pictures in the opposite.
there's a picture of it.
your worse than albert, but why don't you go to front of bloody paper.
you got your finger in it nearly.
well, turn it over.
wow,
go on.
no, that's not it, not yet ain't ya.
there it is.
now why don't ya, why don't ya go to middle.
page twenty-one.
well, it's not far from middle.
aye.
sixty pages.
well, it's only nine,blo stop flipping chopping hairs.
there now, you women.
you're women.
nice boys don't holler.
it looks nice.
where's the paper of your 'ouse.
that's where it can probably be next week or week after, i don't know.
i don't think, he he said, he said 
lie down,lie down 
i don't think they've been to take the photographs yet 
he said, when he come, he said, he can't take a photograph just yet, 'cos it's erm, weather's not good enough.
what i'll do i'll send our coleen in to pick 'er, er thingie up, you know.
they usually send it to ya.
do they,
yes.
oh.
mind, it is from er,what they do is send them through the post, just check 'em, make sure everything's alright, ain't it.
did they ask you what you were leaving, and things like that.
no.
no.
oh.
i i forget to ask him, to make it 
what.
i don't whether they do or not.
what.
see a man about a dog.
oh.
time he got his scruffy 
if anybody comes june, just say, i have you been in touch with yet, and they'll say no, well, say well,
sasha, do you mind.
you'll have to go with 
mind you can always say to you caught me at a bad time, you say, it's supposed to have appointment only, but just say, can you, is there any chance of you coming back.
yeah.
yeah.
you put appointment only on board.
but if you're not too bad, i mean, it don't really matter, does it.
no, don't say it on board, does it.
yeah, they put it on board, if you if you having them by by appointment 
by appointment.
only, they put it on board.
stick come in front of that.
right, well.
oh, shit, we're having 
it's nowt shit.
take us as we find us,
yeah.
if they don't, that's it.
they don't come and look at your 'ouse, they come have a look at what they can do with it, you now, have a look like, why you got extension and,
i don't mind beds being untidy and things like that.
no.
i mean, you don't look at, your not, who's sleeping in your bed.
when ours were, it was a right state when we looked at ours, but we still said we'd have it.
mind, it's just that, it's worth nowt as we've name it.
we'll get it right one day.
one day, karen, one day.
when the moon comes up and it's in two.
when the 
you got two moons.
yeah, all i wanted was go in and, now we're bankrupt and we're nowt where we are.
if we were well off we could get it done.
you'd be employing, you'd be employing builders to come in and do it for you.
yeah, that's what i said, it'd be nice, wannit.
it would.
your half of next door to get some 
remember, remember, if you want taking anywhere, it's er, is it four pound ten an hour chauffeurs.
yeah.
what i mean you have to put petrol in, i mean, it doesn't 
no, you have to put petrol in.
do you hell, not at four pound an hour.
walk.
one fifty an hour, driving.
ain't it four fifty an hour chauffeuring, and he puts petrol in, and taxes and insures car.
bugger off.
back of the bloody van.
you can't go in van with ya, with ya suit on, and 
oh, you've got to, you go play your part.
you got to have a chauffeur, you'll have to buy me a hat you'll have to buy me a hat you'll have to make it worth me while coming off dole at forty pound a week.
yeah.
you paying me in 'and, and dennis is paying me in 'and and i'll a er, thousand pound a week, the way that i keep getting these job offers.
back-handers.
anticipation obligations.
the only trouble is they're only offers.
what's happening down here, then, didn't you hear no more about when you finish then, down here at 
no.
only some bad things, what i've supposed to have done, or what i'm not supposed to have done.
but 
who cares over it.
some money out of it, i took him to court.
proven.
oh.
but you can't do it without money.
no, that legal aid don't go far 
legal aid, won't enter enter entertain it.
not for owt like that.
no, i'm afraid 
you see, 'cos you weren't actually employed, you see, 'cos you say,
no.
you couldn't really take him to a tribunal could you, 'cos ya 
no, i weren't employed.
any money to take him to a tribunal.
well, i made my, i made it plain that er, at the training centre, you know, i says, i says to em, i said er, in my opinion, i says, he doesn't want, he don't want to kn , he he don't want to know.
oy, you.
he says any anything what goes wrong, he says, you automatically get blamed for.
i told you.
he says, well, it's your job not to let it go wrong, i said, i didn't let it go wrong.
i said, but other people let it go wrong and they got away with it.
look what i found.
i've just called for her money.
corrinne's money.
i've,ju i paid her last, yesterday.
did you?
yeah.
well she never bloody said nowt!
yeah.
oh!
paid her yesterday albert.
that means we can't bloody get no cough mixture while she gets home.
you ain't give her 
no.
well well i'll look down our house.
yeah.
never mind.
i'll have to, i'll have to go home and see where she's put it.
yeah.
i give it to her last night she, when she left here.
oh she's really poorly is june!
she's been up erm, with it at night.
she were bad on friday.
she was!
she were coughing like mad!
i wanted her to have complete weekend in bed.
well i, i took bad yesterday, i were, i were in bed nearly all day yesterday.
and i was worse 
i couldn't move!
last night.
bloody woke the dog when i went past!
who?
oh!
da 
here.
dogs outside?
yeah.
yes.
but er i sa i said look i said, you're not doing yourself any favours by going to work, and i says, and i don't mind you having day off.
no you can't when you're bad.
you bloody can't!
no, no, she we but she were te friday she was terrible!
looked ill 
well she's 
like as well, you know.
she's worse this morning.
she's worse.
she's not been asleep a minute all night!
no, that's it.
so she'll to stay in bed for a 
course, i were ba i weren't very well yesterday so i said i'm not very well, but i had pains as well, back pain and all all 
yeah.
all kinds of pains this is.
i says, no, i said i'm gonna stop in bed today.
so i stopped in bed now i, i'm better, well
no, that's only way you'll throw it off.
yeah.
i'm a bit better but i've had to get out this morning to let june stay in !
yeah.
well i say, she were terrible on friday, i know.
right then, i'll get off home and er see what's what.
alright.
but she never said.
she never bloody said!
cos she always does bugger you know!
the tight bugger!
no, she's in bed.
is she bad?
oh dear!
yep!
can you lend me a fiver while our corrinne comes home?
mm.
i suppose so.
she's er no we lent our corrinne our money
yeah.
to get her tax she got paid yesterday
mm.
and she didn't, she hasn't paid us it back.
so, we're, we're skint and i want to go and get some
yeah.
stuff for her.
i were in bed yesterday.
i know!
oh dear!
she said.
i couldn't, i had pains all over place!
i couldn't speak!
couldn't do erm, anything, i was surprised.
just give her some, bit of these.
no i've got some, i've got some better than them.
well they're ever so good if you've got 
ah!
it, they're only solphadeine them.
mine's cocod cocodamol.
mm.
they're a bit stronger than them.
well i thought there must be something, because i thought oh, she must have had to go in early with her not coming in.
no.
no.
she's in bed.
i told her to stay in there as well.
yes.
mm mm.
you alright?
i know she were coughing her guts out here!
i know!
er,gi i've done that you know, when i were younger and i'd strained a heart muscle!
oh!
mm.
i couldn't lie down for five weeks!
i started coughing yesterday and i, that were it!
you should have got her a drop of brandy, brandy or whisky albert.
ah!
it's no good them grandma.
you don't know.
a little drop of whisky does you good.
i can manage without it.
i don't drink.
i like a bit of brandy!
i'm still coughing like, but not as bad.
cos i said to her get some of that cough stuff cos i've only took about three times this .
what venos?
ah!
but it's 
yeah.
not a tickly cough she's got it's a chesty cough.
and it's dear!
it were one 
i know!
sixty five!
well i'm gonna get some for her.
well i paid er seventy five pence for twelve of them er anadin!
ha!
bruce!
bruce!
bruce!
hup!
hup!
hup!
hup!
!
ow!
back!
ah la la la la la la!
kill!
maim!
oh you're daddy's is all stained at the back and at the arm.
right then.
right elephant.
is that just her natural mother then?
shut up!
ha!
i think it's gonna be good!
hoping, i'm hoping.
i'm hoping.
what do you want?
your stinking bruce!
sit down!
aye, er 
have him back!
eh?
you soon be fucking will be!
oh that's swollen.
it's just one bigger than the other.
her bad ankle's swollen.
bruce!
bruce!
bruce!
bruce!
bruce!
bruce!
no bruce!
don't tell the dog, no!
no!
hey!
yeah.
hey bruce!
no, that's not nice.
bruce did that to another dog.
he's laughing !
i'll tell how i stopped him.
bruce!
up!
up!
up!
come up here, bruce.
bruce, here!
come up over here.
come up here!
no, wait here bruce, don't go up there.
do you think he'll go over.
i'll be laughing the other side.
i shall be watching him.
great!
when your dog barked, the other dog will bark again.
no!
not this dog.
it's not his.
ah?
ooh, caught up in your wishing well .
ooh ooh!
yeah, you've come out with the right words haven't you ?
oh!
oh!
oh!
, you'll have a laugh.
no!
christ!
he ain't gonna fuck hit him!
take your love and promises .
mm!
smell nice now!
well joanna she won't .
like my car or something.
bruce!
bruce!
here!
you got it on there?
aye .
fuck me!
what the hell's wrong with twenty minutes!
function engineer is responsible for issuing to the client.
that's, yeah.
replaces urgent work.
yeah.
that's er procedure d two stop three.
and that's the simplification is it?
yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
two two 
it is.
it's, it's sort of following the demise of part of er trevor's empire.
thus making it even cheaper.
for to a smaller an empire.
i should use that word, that was used very loosely that word cheap.
what?
cheap?
i mean i'm briefed 
on that.
mm.
okay.
so the urgent work procedure has now been removed to make life easier.
d two 
and to let the client know where the job lies within our organization.
good.
given a point of 
straight into a function and that function head will then s write to the client saying, i've got it.
my project coordinator is mr x, and then we've got the point of contact established straight away.
there are quite a few fairly minor changes to the appointment contract procedure but i haven't, i don't pretend, intend briefing those because i think most people can read.
right.
so they should be aware there, there are some.
yeah.
right?
er j two stop zero.
trainees training report file.
yes.
erm there is a requirement that all trainees and new starters within the group, who are having training reviews undertaken, will maintain a training file.
so they know where to find and we know where to find all their bits of reports and the like.
their performance reports, training r reviews, schedule of objectives etcetera.
and that's j two stop zero.
e five stop one.
contract documents and specifications for works and bridges.
e five stop one.
sorry.
there is an x on it.
works bridges and q and q s.
erm there is now a standard pro forma for identifying liquidated damages.
the project engineer to agree with the client what the liquidem liquidated damages ought to be.
and there's a pro forma that goes through to the quantity surveyor's section.
p on it either.
mhm.
eh?
yours 
erm 
got p on.
no.
con h five stop two.
contract variation orders.
erm contract variation orders are to be signed by the project engineer, irrespective of value.
er subject to him of course having the nec necessary financial authority from the project manager or the client.
there are 
mm.
arrangements in here that if it's in the middle of a possession and the project engineer cannot be contacted, then obviously the resident engineer can sign it.
erm but obviously there's er a, a need, the need to advise the project engineer, and the project manager, erm following the possession.
can i, can i raise a small point on that?
that is 
mm.
a number of my staff have repeatedly asked me the question, what is a project engineer?
and i've told them what a b e s one is and they said, why?
why are works ones different then?
why couldn't 
they aren't.
m s ones be project engineers?
in works?
and yet in b e s they're only twos and threes?
could be anybody.
well.
project engineers are
you've lost me.
t t o and s t o level.
surely not.
but you would erm you would allow an s t o, to sign a v o of any value?
the only people who sign 
point, good point.
v os are those who are delegated within the contract to do 
mm.
so.
yes.
that's what it says though don't it?
.
and that's what it says.
the value of authority from the client.
yeah.
so it will be in your letter of delegation
yeah.
which brings up the main point and that is we have got to make sure that those people who are nominated or delegated within the terms of the contract, are people who have the knowledge and experience
mhm.
yeah.
to discharge 
mhm.
that duty.
mhm.
then there's, i, i, i'm the only person.
quite a long time now i begin to understand there are m s twos and threes are project engineers, and i
not necessarily.
no.
er 
they can be.
that was certainly my understanding and certainly
no.
if that is not the case then i'm gonna have to change the consultation documents because 
no.
it's terminology isn't it?
no.
because, because the consultation 
we've 
documents clearly set out to the staff, what i thought was our collective understanding of the section engineer oblique project engineer relationship
right.
that section engineers at m s four level er acted as project coordinators or looked after their own element of the 
yeah.
work, negotiated the er
the fee
the fees 
yeah.
and the remit with the client, and then delegated to, the work to a project engineer.
and the project engineers were m s twos on medium jobs, small jobs, and m s threes on larger jobs.
and they were supported by a pool of engineers and technicians at 
mm.
m s one and p n t created .
yeah.
but why can't the engineer at m s one level be project engineer
because his responsibilities are different.
in, in terms of 
well.
that's fine
your using a name.
oh no.
he's responsible.
no.
because within, within our, within our procedures and our quality systems, the word project engineer crops up quite a lot.
project team 
yeah.
but it's, it's not defined as er an m s two or an m s three.
i mean take the example that hugh is always using, is that if i wanted to knock a wall through, a hole through that wall and put a door in there with a link in it surely to goodness we 
right.
don't need an m s two.
if that's 
mm.
the case then can i suggest that we define within our quality systems, that project engineers will be m s twos or above, for check categories of zero or above, and that for jobs with a category of double zero
oh no.
they can't be beneath 
very, making it very rigid.
yes.
you see what our policy is m s two except b except by exception.
for instance erm we would give certainly the better m s ones the smaller jobs to project manage, but that has to be very carefully thought about.
project engineer.
project engineer.
that's right.
what happens if everybody wants to 
panel view this
now i would imagine if we had suggested 
in broad terms 
i would imagine that if we'd suggested that project engineering duties would beco 
could be done at m s one 
at m m s one and s t o 
thank you.
we wouldn't have, we 
levels the then 
wouldn't have no m s threes.
then none of our m s threes 
would have come back at m s three.
what concerns me is the project engineers are in close liaison with the client, and have a lot of procedures to go through that er s t os and m s ones at design engineering level do not have to go through.
they do have a much greater responsibility.
and particularly i mean just signing the v os, because if it's cocked up, the question's been asked of me.
you know.
if you have an s t o, in a sense if you don't define what the project engineer is, what grade he is, he can sign off unlimited amounts of money.
.
it doesn't seem right does it?
i it seems, well
no.
but the point t that hughie makes is that y you allocate er y you, you make the project engineer someone who have trained, and, and that you know is capable of doing that job.
yeah.
well i can think of one m s one in our er office who i'd be quite erm quite happy with him doing all the project eng engineering duties except finance.
because he, he just has you know a very slap happy er attitude towards finance, but from an engineering point of view you can trust him 
mm.
so this means you daren't give him anything now.
well in that case i wouldn't put him on er on a job that was made out on site but i would keep him in the 
t as far as the allocation of, of erm the project engineering responsibilities, that forms part of the quality plan.
that, that, that he is given a note as part of the quality plan saying, here you are son, you are now project engineer.
these are your duties.
you are responsible for that job and you are identified on the project quality plan check list as to what you will be doing and what other members of the team will be doing.
he couldn't live, live by it.
you know it d the first thought bloody hell.
if you don't want to use it don't use it.
s t o with unlimited signing power.
there's an anom anomaly here.
but if you don't want to use it don't 
and anyway he can't, he can't actually spend, spend this money unless he's got 
oh yeah.
oh yeah.
auth authority from the project manager.
but there may be, there may be 
i think we're discussing two issues here.
can we, can we bottom the v o 
yeah.
one as a start .
i don't see there's a problem with the v o one, because
it's 
nobody nobody can issue v os unless they're delegated to do so, in, in the letter that's signed by me.
i rely on you gentlemen
and, and they have got the permission of the project manager to spend that money.
yeah.
correct.
yeah.
i rely on you gentlemen to make sure 
too right.
that the people who are delegated, are competent to discharge those duties.
yeah.
an and i must admit that i wouldn't, i would not expect to see anybody delegated within the contract at less than m s one level.
because i just don't think they i they're competent to do the duties of the engineer's representative, because you need a knowledge of the contract.
tt.
well.
there are some jobs that, that we get involved with are very very small 
we've had john on 
yeah.
john 's been on jobs and he's er
well.
he's been as the r e, which is reasonable to be fair.
yeah.
so's steve 
we 
as r e.
we
delegated to issue site instructions?
yes.
but not v os?
not v os.
well.
no.
th the, the letter of delegation 
pardon?
is very specific because 
yes.
the contractor is very specific.
yes.
but we need 
the contract sorry is very specific.
i'm not being funny but we're nitpicking now at the difference between 
yeah.
site instructions and v os.
no.
no.
well.
no.
no.
we're not.
no.
we're not.
site 
yeah.
instruction does not involve any er any a a an 
financial .
any financial commitment.
and it doesn't change the contract.
so i mean
b t t 
the reason why, no, the reason why these, these 
but they do.
procedures were written is because in the past we had that foggy situation
mm.
mm.
and i wanted to clarify that, and make sure that our procedures actually were back to back with contract procedure.
so i think in terms o of this particular erm procedure, we're okay.
mm.
where, where we're not okay is in the point that jim has raised, the general point and that is, what do we mean, what do we d define as a project engineer?
so junior junior r es then will not issue v os.
unless they're delegated t to do so within the contract and i rely on you to make sure that whoever is delegated to issue 
what if they're,wh what if they're below m s two level?
no no.
no r e will issue a v o. 
they might do if they're m s two i mean the project engineer 
if it's the project engineer.
yes.
yeah.
fine.
specifications here trevor?
with regards to?
on one two or 
yeah.
three?does it use the word th the term 
no.
project engineer?
definitely 
not in the erm er in the m s ones.
i it involves 
does in the two and threes.
about erm
does in the two and threes.
does in the two and threes.
yes.
cos senior in a lot 
i mean th that's the title.
senior project engineer and project engineer.
yeah.
cos that's, that's where my understanding was.
oh.
so it's a different issue now.
that's the second issue that you've brought up.
it is.
well.
i wanted to bottom that one because i think it's a fairly easy one to do.
then, then go on to jim's point of, come on lads.
what do you mean 
by a project engineer?
mm.
so that's okay.
and that's the, so let's put that to one side and let's, let's 
debate
yeah.
we'll start that with questioning 
jim's point.
my office.
mm.
mm.
yeah.
there isn't a definition then within the procedures of what a project engineer's duties are?
yeah.
the first book on the left there dave by the big fat volume that's called
to, to the left of your, your omnibus.
that's it.
ta.
where?
wha what do we want a project engineer to do?
i want him to do an m s two or three .
what do we want him to do?
come on.
.
manage that project.
through from conception to completion.
un unfortunately it raises the question of the project coordinator whose role 
mm.
mm.
talk to you about you know ne next week 
mm.
because it's all rolled into the same thing.
right.
i say it's 
shall we leave it till then?
responsibility.
right.
let, let us leave it till then because i mean otherwise we're gonna get bogged down in this and whe when we really are briefing procedures.
yeah.
but you've raised a very valid point and it's one that we need to see through to the end.
i can s i can see 
the role o of 
i can see what you're driving at.
the role of a project engineer is defined in q s p six.
which roger hasn't seen yet 
yeah the role 
but he but it is the day to day d detailed development 
of a project to meet the cost specification and timescale defined in the client's remit.
undertake the requirements of the project quality plan.
undertaking all design construction, installation to meet all necessary current standards, statutory requirements,a and the civil engineering design manual er safety manual.
in a broad sense.
mhm.
which seems alright.
yeah.
l let us then debate, i mean you actually have a load of projects which are maybe two or three thousand pounds apiece
mm.
where i presume you would just wanna hand that out to some guy and say get on with it.
and that guy may be an m s one.
the problem is a lot of those are not being managed properly by the m s ones, m s twos.
right.
we will
yeah.
okay.
let's debate that then when we get together.
thanks for raising it jim.
fair point.
have you read what 
it's, it's important that we nail it down very very quickly because the clients' reports depend very much upon the input of the project engineer.
project engineer.
the only, the, there is only the project engineer can get into the databases to put anything in, or, or their clerical support, to get anything into the general notes about that particular 
yeah.
project.
i think we're meeting early next week isn 
yeah.
tuesday isn't it?
tuesday 
so we'll bottom that tuesday.
okay.
could i briefly go back to liquidated damages, because there's nothing in the procedure, i think, that says what happens when you send that form to the client, he says, i haven't a clue.
what do you think?
cos that's exactly what's gonna happen.
because i've seen 
oh dear.
that form before and they will not know what to put on it or what they 
you may be l well be right there.
maybe to tell them what liquidated damages 
they need leading by the hand gentlemen.
can't we just put a clause 
we need, we need, no.
they don't.
organize everyone by us.
perhaps we should set the course up.
course up and .
eh?
absolutely i like that.
yeah.
no.
it's very frustrating because i've never never known a client who knew what his losses were.
we'll run a course for project managers.
as hugh, hugh is indicating that th that we have got a degree of expertise and we should be offering that expertise to clients.
well we can tell him how much we'd be charging them to .
no.
no.
no.
what we've got to do is say, look, within the terms of the contract
this is what .
this is what you have to do.
you have to make a genuine pre-estimate of your 
losses
mm.
so can we talk about what your losses are?
we w suggest that you have losses under the heading of er 
mm.
disruption to traffic, loss of revenue, so on and so forth 
mm.
and i think we have er a a part to play in that.
mm.
what about my extra costs?
and your extra supervision costs.
no.
i was thinking about the client's extra costs.
oh.
then the gain 
actually.
overrun by three weeks 
the fact that we've still got our supervision 
yeah.
but, but we put that in.
yeah.
but during 
not only that 
yeah.
but we, we should be prompting them.
course that we know about it.
well there's the fact that he might have borrowed the money for a ten million pound project, and he can't have a use of it because it's named and he's paying interest 
on that ten million pounds.
extended plus services for diverted traffic and so on.
be discussed.
yeah.
yeah.
so what 
good.
it needs is it needs us to have an input with their project manager to evaluate them.
that's right.
a and the forms as it stands picks up most of the points that we've just raised.
does it have a box for us to put our costs in?
oh yeah.
it starts off with that.
thank god for that 
th they're, they're, they're not our costs terry.
they're his costs.
yeah.
mm.
i mean we charge him.
correct.
he's the one that 
no.
but 
correct.
why?
and we can tell him how, how much we're gonna charge him but it's up to him or whatever.
i mean quite clearly with something like this, when we start using it, it's gonna throw up all sorts of
yeah.
problems.
mm.
we have, we have had that form kicking around for quite a long time and it's never really been 
right.
it's easier for 
well now is the time for everyone to be aware of it.
that's right.
we're now proceeding 
brendan and joyce did a twenty five page memo.
mm.
what on liquidated damages?
next.
shut up .
s safe, okay.
procedure k zero stop one, safety related admin.
i'm making the point that man management procedures erm, sorry, safety instructions and information and safety information will not be issued via management procedures.
management procedures w will relate, will only contain procedures relating to the admin of safety matters.
yes.
good.
excellent
go back to the clerical section 
you, you'll, you were instrumental about 
i've been fighting this b 
that my friend.
i've been fighting this battle for four years and we've eventually got there.
mm.
good.
good.
next.
it was 
erm maintenance and use of portable electrical apparatus k nineteen stop one.
the safety one.
er it talks about erm 
safety admin one.
safety admin one.
the functions clerical section, section maintaining registers.
business and planning manager will ensure a contract's in place for routine inspection.
business, and business manager will ensure that inspection reports are forwarded to the function heads after inspections.
and there's talking about labelling of defective equipment and what have you.
good.
and i've been ordered to .
right.
mhm.
by plant well will be by plant .
right.
erm m for mother four stop one, payment application by contractors.
erm there are quite a few in, in this series which follow the same sort of thing is that er, all projects all jobs on site er will have a quantity surveyor from dave 's section.
erm and will 
eh?
nominated.
to do all the post-contract measure work.
nominated.
come on.
let's, what you're doing is you're winding them up den.
i'm not.
i can't believe dennis would be mischievous enough to wind anybody up on p on a subject that he's so disinterested in.
that's, that isn't 
yes.
go on.
i've been told to change these procedures to.
just taken the knife out of your back.
right.
the project q s is responsible for agreeing all site measurements, normally attaining these personally.
however when specifically requested by the project q s, the resident engineer or the project engineer may obtain this information.
a project q s is responsible for agreeing all valuations and for processing all invoices for payment for physical work, and passing these to the client for payment.
so what's the change?
because on many jobs certainly smaller jobs, er the resident engineer or the project engineer would 
be doing the 
and normally normally they will do that and in, in the future 
well 
yes it will.
they can say, yeah,th the project q s is just gonna say, measure me all 
that's right.
i haven't time to go and do that.
what i'm looking for, this is part of 
i know 
sorry.
this is part of the 
the spirit.
the reason this came about dennis, is because some people were, were playing ducks and drakes.
and the spirit of the exercise is that we will work as a team, and the most cost-effective procedure will exist.
and in m in many cases the most cost-effective procedure will be for the lad on site, the r e or the assistant r e to measure, and provide the measure to the q ss who will put that forward and process that in the way they do now and send out a certificate.
and i don't see anything contentious about that.
can i take it that if 
i don't, i don't like how it is worded then, because i don't think you said that.
sorry to 
no.
it, it was worded that way because there are 
it says the project q s is responsible for agreeing all site measurements .
that's what it says.
yes.
he is responsible for that.
he is.
and he may delegate that
he may delegate to 
i agree with you but 
and in many cases will delegate that.
he is also responsible for the valuation 
he has raised it with the contractor.
it doesn't say that here.
it does.
but there's no .
the letter of delegation normally says that 
it says, normally it says, normally obtaining them personally 
the letter of delegation has always said that q s will measure
yeah.
yeah.
measure the works 
re 
in, in, in, in the past 
words.
the resident engineer has been doing the measure and also agreeing the valuations.
well i don't think
now
what hughie's saying is that that will be done
th that responsibility
mutually 
valuations because we've got this 
mm.
perhaps you do.
which, which 
personally i don't think really there's a need for a great deal of site measurement.
i think, i think it should all be, you know, basically it should be done from 
the offices.
because they've dug a big hole doesn't mean you measure the big hole.
it's all part of the measuring anyway.
you're paying for the hole they should have dug provided it was at least as big as they 
in accordance with the and the er the 
what do you call it?
yeah well.
the 
preamble.
preamble.
can i take it then, that these items will be clearly defined when the project coordinator discusses with the team quantity surveyor at the 
who does what.
yes.
who does what because 
yes.
i don't want any more s in instances where the quantity surveyor thinks he's got a certain fee that he's working to, only to find out later 
hear hear.
on that somebody's knocked it down by half and not told him.
because that causes all sorts of problems on the report and, and bad blood all round.
course it did 
it's not what team work's 
i mean i, no.
i would reiterate that my objective is a very simple one, and that is to give the client the most cost-effective service we can.
er with this instruction, it will get picked up on the quality 
co in accordance
er check list.
good.
good.
could i could i, could i ask that b e s be taken off the distribution codes.
we do not use quantity surveyors for that purpose and indeed the quantity surveyor is not geared up to do any measurement for us.
so you want that
the answer to that is 
rewriting then?
no.
because i think that there should be no reason why the q s shouldn't provide you with that service in the same way as he provides anybody else jim.
unless there's
but he's, but he's not geared up to do it.
but you've got erm a q s then.
we have.
i'm not too sure that means .
well i think, i think bloody robots 
we all were.
in there like.
electrical away isn't it?
mis yeah.
mister metal.
that's wound the buggers up.
metal mickey.
really 
metal mickey.
well that's 
really a bright spark.
you know.
yeah.
what i'm 
but erm
what i suggest is these procedures are, we briefly mentioned this this morning, are supposed to reflect the best practice of what we do now.
yeah.
that is not what we do now.
that is actually saying to the q s, you've now got authority to come in to b e s and effectively do what you do on the civil side.
and what i'm saying is he's certainly not geared up to undertake that task.
and that certainly hasn't 
jim?
been debated.
on, on, in many cases 
mm.
go on.
i mean if i took your line, your, your logic and maybe i'm misinterpreting it, er we would not have changed anything when b e s came into, to our organization.
and one of the most significant changes i wanted to make, and i think we have made was that the, the letting of contracts and the vetting of contracts and so on would be done by our q ss, in the same way as it is for the civil work
indeed.
for a very simple purpose and that is that it, it improves our internal control.
yeah.
it puts an in a a almost er an independent view in there, of the costs and valuation of variations and so on.
now i, i think perhaps you're worrying unduly, jim in so far as, your, your men will continue to administer contracts in the way they do now.
the they still issue the certificate to the client, which is signed off price correct.
yes.
for them to sign off price correct, they have got to have had a look at the measure.
haven't they?
well they don't.
that's just it.
if we're to be, if we end up being audited on that, then we will fail the audit because we do not do that.
that's what i'm saying.
that is supposed to say what we do and what i'm saying is
yeah.
we don't do that.
i'm not saying we shouldn't do it i'm saying we don't do it.
well i'll leave that for you to manage.
and, and procedures procedures should not say what we don't do.
i, i agree with you.
they should say what we do do.
or .
or what we ought to do.
yes.
oh no.
no.
no.
ah!
if if we're not complying with the procedures that's a different
well it, i mean if we go down that 
a different ball game.
path er jim then we're gonna have er five or six set different volumes of procedures.
yes.
because we all do things slightly different at present.
if that is necessary then that is of course what happened and indeed in many cases that is exactly what happened.
there is nothing wrong 
you have a dif 
with that.
but, but, but 
you have a different quality system for different offices.
but hughie is 
well you, you have to do in some cases .
yes.
but hughie is saying as far the works office is concerned, he wants to regularize the system with this procedure.
and as i understood you 
yeah.
again, you wanted the, the, to regularize the system with within the b e s office.
we well i do, unless that doesn't make sense.
now i can't see why it doesn't make sense, but if jim came to me and said, look hugh, that's bloody silly.
i mean our objective is to give the, the client a good efficient cost-effective service, that doesn't meet those
objectives.
but d dave, dave, dave could not handle, in b e s, what he handles on the civil side.
in what respect?
h he is not staffed up to do what 
could quite easily ask you to do all the erm
running around 
the actual measure the site measurements, but the agreeing, the valuations, and the processing of the invoices, he does himself.
and that is w well within what this procedure says.
i mean he does the invoices now doesn't he?
well i understood so.
or the, the certification to the client.
yes he does he does the certificate.
yeah.
so really all it, all the, this would 
involve them 
doing would be to say, would you project engineers er or, or engineers collect the in information on site, provide it to the quantity surveyors so they can check it against the spirit of the contract, and make sure that er what's proposed to be certified they're happy with.
well it doesn't say that though.
yes.
it
sorry.
it's 
let's 
what i'm, what i'm saying is if, if you want to really stir people up, bring in a procedure within telling them what you're doing, and then imple implement it at a later date and people will say, this is not quality.
hey jim
you will 
the reason why we're the reason why we're doing this now is is to 
right.
try and achieve that objective.
mm.
not t to drop it straight on them but to say.
look, this is one we're introducing this is the way we in in intend to use it.
mm.
i mean there might be the odd situation, the big job, where the q s would need to go and 
right.
get involved in the measures on some of your work.
well he doesn't.
that's what i'm saying.
he hasn't done yet.
you can't have that, he doesn't.
have a word with dave and ask him himself 
dave dave was a party to this s 
d dave, dave wrote this 
procedure.
did the change.
well you may be certain he didn't consult with me.
yeah.
and that's the point i'm making.
mm.
these procedures should be manag you know part of management consultation, not part of the dave writes it, if he like says, well that's what we'll do for b e s, and then, and then i'm told, oh, that's what we do for b e s, i tell staff, and that causes a great deal of unrest in staff.
hey jim why?
why 
back on him?
jim.
cos i haven't had an opportunity to do it to 
why should b e s be a different, a different situation from bridges or works?
well in, in theory certainly probably there is no reason for it, but in practice, it hasn't happened yet this is the point.
it hasn't actually happened.
yes.
you're, you're implementing a procedure here that doesn't exist, is what jim's saying.
you're implementing a procedure 
within b e s. 
which says you're gonna do this
right?
sorry.
sorry.
no.
it doesn't say that.
this procedure should say you do this.
that's what we're doing at the moment.
right.
he's quite right in saying 
book is an instruction.
yeah.
and jim's 
quite right in saying, it does not happen.
but it's not the first time that a procedure's 
finished.
come out early.
so you've implemented a procedure for wh which you haven't set up you haven't even looked at the resource information 
but can be briefed 
we are introducing a procedure.
yes.
and in order to c come in and say 
like that?
no.
why don't you do this?
and i could say well i, i've never done this.
i can't do this, and q s is not geared up to do it.
what ?
and straight away we say, well this procedure, doesn't work.
yeah.
but it's 
right.
yeah.
come out, it's come out early.
damn it all.
we had a procedure erm about senior project engineers, er about two years before we 
we've gotta keep repeating that.
er 
does it?
put that into the bridge office in 
mhm.
intended .
right.
the thing with this , the thing that puzzles me a bit er 
just because you booked that 
on this, and i'll reiterate this, is the process that we go through as i understand it for introducing procedures, is that we take a diagonal slice through the organization er in other words there's a draft procedure produced.
that is sent round to people who will have been involved.
they have the opportunity to input, it is amended er taking account of, of the comments
taking account of some of the comments.
it can never take account of all the comments.
of course it can't.
it will always be compromise.
but by a very virtue of the draft going round and being commented on people are aware then 
we don't see 
.
mm.
all the drafts 
no.
wh what wh where 
going on.
that falls down hugh, is that people assume because they've commented that, that when it comes out in its final version it'll reflect their particular comment.
they never get a feedback saying, thanks for those comments but i've those because, because i thought somebody else's 
comments were more 
a lot more slice .
no.
no.
not not, not
it's just a modification from 
yeah.
the slices 
l lots of the revisions are not sliced and certainly in, in cases like this where
mm.
it is a er er a specific 
direct.
request or a direct request that something is changed, then it
is given to in this particular case the dave s of the world or other function heads and told
i would still like to issue 
that.
er a and i think we issue it and then t in jim's situation, erm i think what you tell your staff is that this, this has been issued, and we are gonna find a way of erm working it in your organization.
or if it is impossible to do so then we will have to have a look.
well surely it, it just means that in in jim's organization 
i, i don't see the problem.
that when specifically requested w will apply in 
in ninety nine percent of the cases.
that will be reflected in the quality plan anyway.
so
yeah.
where's 
yes.
the problem?
mm.
yeah.
i, i don't see a problem .
but when your project 
coordinators talk to
in concept there should not be a problem 
the erm 
you might not have a problem 
q s 
in four weeks time.
with dave but at the moment if we're audited tomorrow
well as i understand it, this is what's happening at 
well i still don't 
present.
i don't, i still don't 
no.
but 
accept that.
at present effectively that
he agrees valuations.
mm.
mhm.
and he can delegate the site measurement to your staff.
and in most cases will do.
as long as it's a you do your 
and he processes the paper.
and once you do a quality plan for that, that delegation .
anything to your section at the moment does he?
no.
it's the other way round.
yes.
yeah that's true.
for long enough i've said budget engineers run the job.
yeah.
where i mean our, invariably our in involvement is much greater than the q s.
naturally.
and many of my staff in s in not just but one or two others, see this as the tail wagging the dog if you like where somebody says, you will do so and so, or you know, i'm telling you you'll do this.
now it's how you read that into that procedure.
that's the problem with it.
there's no problem i 
i understand that.
mean that, you know, why?
why should the q s estimate all our work?
mm.
the there is no real good reason
why he shouldn't.
why he shouldn't other than the fact that keeping 
in fact there's a 
up to date.
there's a very good reason why he 
could he do that?
should.
perhaps.
is he doing that now?
no.
no.
no.
not yet.
no.
but he does, he does 
all yours.
i thought we had a 
yeah.
procedure that said they did it.
aha.
we do.
yeah.
b e s?
well you told me 
i mean come on it's the same ball game.
yeah.
i mean i 
it is the same ball game and, and as far as i, as far as i'm concerned it makes more sense
so why aren't the q s 
for 
b e s work now?
and p way work?
and p way work cos that's what you've said it does and you, you're 
we are doing.
i'm afraid i'm not helped much 
we are doing.
i'm, i'm gonna call a halt to this here because without david here who 
right.
knows the detail we, all we're gonna do is enjoy the sound of our own voices.
i think.
so what i'm, what i propose, is that this goes out because i don't think it changes anything significantly.
erm jim you, you, you need to present it in a certain way to your staff, and er after you've considered that, if you don't feel it's workable then i think you need to talk to david and i.
yeah.
well i've already, for a number, a number of cases, spoken to dave about it.
and he knows this can't be worked.
that's why 
well i 
i'm rather surprised that it's, we're
will it work?
still perpetuating this
well alright then.
the other option 
a and, and, and the s on the m as it were.
yes.
right.
the oth the other, the other option is for us to hold that.
because it was supposed to be briefed last 
mm.
month.
well in that, in that case 
when
i've seen, i've seen all this 
mm.
in that case when 
it is ours.
well we can't 
we've got a 
right.
in that case jim you say to your staff that you're gonna have a dialogue with dave and myself, with a view to confirming how it will be implemented as far as your organization is concerned.
but surely 
we can still issue it, we can still brief
this issue 
that issue?
of course you can.
yes.
well.
it is
work 
it's been issued roger.
i think, i, i personally, i think everyone's got to work to it until they find it doesn't work.
ca can't you just, can't jim just brief his staff, but er as far as that's concerned w he takes it that the q s has asked him to do all the site measurement er and that they will then produce the certification
mm.
based on that?
yeah.
the 
i 
only re yes by all means 
our project quality plan check list reflects that.
.
naturally your
mm.
your way out is to get 
d dave to write a letter, saying for all projects i wish him to do 
y no.
no.
no.
terry, terry there's no point.
all all that, all that 
that is stupid.
all that jim's trying to do 
the reason why 
is to change 
i, i don't mean that in a disrespectful way.
no.
no.
i know but
it, it, it, it is stupid in, in so far as the more sens if we were gonna do that, all you'd do is you'd write
the procedures in a different way.
yeah.
the procedures
were written in this way, because erm there was a move from a certain part of the organization to exclude the q ss from elements of work on an unreasonable to an unreasonable extent.
now if we work as a team and we work very sensibly and reasonably, it may wo may well be that the most sensible way of working is for the project engineer to decide who's gonna do the site measure.
but at the end of the day these guys sign off price correct.
these guys therefore must have a facility of ensuring that the price is correct, from an internal control point of view i want them to be involved in certifying that the price is correct.
that is how we came to the conclusion that they should be
i, i, i i certainly think there's a great deal of sense in it all.
but we don't even measure yet .
i, i've yet, i've got a, a major job on my hands to reeducate people and bring in systems for much more accurate measurement of our work.
it's a very difficult job to measure is m and e.
mm.
well a lot of them are just 
because 
lump sums aren't they?
well i mean a lot of it can't be measured you know?
mm.
mm.
hundreds of miles of, of cables 
cables 
on a site 
trunking 
for example.
yeah.
you know we we are not geared 
s s 
up to measure yet properly.
and we need to be.
right.
so i'm saying we're wa way off what the procedures are currently saying.
a and all i'm saying is that and i rest my case 
mm.
is that
if we came to be audited 
procedures should be what is happening, not what our aspirations are.
no.
i'm sorry.
particularly when they're long way .
no.
but, but when you're measuring something 
i don't want otherwise you finish up with five separate er management procedures .
but also is it necessary.
jim 
so we can make 
let's issue that.
because
you, david and i need to sort out what we need to do to implement it
yeah.
and we will then implement it.
for you.
we've also gotta recognize clearly dennis that civils and m and e cannot be stereotyped they are very very different engineering .
i'm s not suggesting they could.
and some management procedures cannot work very well in m and e as they can in civils.
not because
mm.
you know we don't want to in, in, in the civils team or what have you.
indeed it works very well.
but in some cases some procedures cannot be worked on m and e
yeah.
engineering.
they've got totally different algorithms.
well it is supposed to be talking about managing the system and not d not taking people's e professional expertise away from them.
i mean but if 
yes.
if we are gonna have 
it is a problem.
procedures which are, don't quite fit you, then i think what we ought to be looking for is a certain amount of common ground between your procedure and our procedure, so there is not something, you're doing something completely different to the way the rest of us are doing it.
no.
i totally agree with you.
it's gotta be married together.
totally agree with you.
cannot stereotype every function, under a management procedure.
it just cannot work every time.
right.
the on the, the, the, the procedures should be flexible er written in such a flexible way
yeah.
that those idiosyncrasies of the different sections can be accommodated.
th they should reflect the best practice shouldn't they?
yes.
the best practice in, sometimes in m and e is, is quite different from the best practice in the 
mm.
civils.
right.
le okay.
we can talk genera generalities till the, the cows come home.
i believe that, that that procedure could apply to you the same as it can to roger and terry
yeah.
and dennis and alan.
er and if, if y if there is a resource problem then you david and i need to address that
mm.
erm and find a solution.
if when we address it we find that th the procedure is inappropriate, then we should change the procedure.
i agree with you .
mm?
yeah.
okay?
er d two stop three, receipt of appointment contracts.
erm what we're trying to do here is to get the clerical sections more involved in the projects, and in passing the paper backwards and forwards.
er and we're identifying that the clerical sections are required to do a certain number of things when the project arrives, like erm recording the project in the index book, creating a correspondence file, creating project admin wallets, and the like.
so it's sort of er three things we're trying to do there.
what, what was the reference of the urgent work one?
i, i've got that down as d two point three 
was it three point two?
mm.
i've got that down as tw d d two point three as well.
yeah.
very good.
mm.
mm.
i wouldn't have spotted that.
aren't you observant.
you're absolutely bloody right aren't you?
got two d two point threes?
mm.
yeah.
but we seem to have, right, i'll, i'll take that point back.
okay.
i'm sorry i shall have to fill in the noncompliance or a quick-fix 
report dennis.
if you if you would please trevor.
yes.
that's the system.
mm.
you fell for that trevor.
i'm sorry i haven't got one with me.
right.
right.
well 
and 
i'll just plug that up that.
we'll expect one from 
you then?
i'll tell trudy's 
so it's not d is it d two point three or not?
i'll, i'll have to check with her another time.
right.
okay.
yes.
apparently we've got a mistake on the back of that form, that it referred to a noncompliance report, on the back, which is referring to the front but the front was called a quick-fix report 
you see?
so i said, should i fill in a quick-fix report or a noncompliance report, to say that the quick-fix form, or is it a noncompliance report is wrong.
right.
we'll get there.
erm
he said i could leave it with him and he'd sort it out.
there have er 
first mistake .
there have been some fairly er minor alterations to the procedures concerning contract admin wallets er and the various client reports, er but hugh did ask me to raise them at this meeting, er to remind people of the need to er complete client reports.
correct.
and i've rai i raised it this morning.
right.
and erm in the context of regional railways
fine.
wanting them from us.
yeah.
but i must say that we're using these client reports and managers within each section 
i know you are.
the only one who is.
are finding them extremely useful
mm.
in keeping an idea of where the jobs are,
yeah.
and the comments i'm getting back from the er the clients are very very favourable.
right.
they do find them extremely helpful.
have you run off 
c 
any interim report from t the computer yet?
no cos i wasn't too sure if it was available you telling me it is available.
a as i said this morning t to the management team it is available.
the only problem is as a one-off exercise on
er existing jobs.
we will have to put in er a summary of the existing remit.
including
right.
all the variations and what not.
and that's something that mike and ken will help dig the historical contracts out and, and suggest er a remit.
erm b cos, cos he, it prints a remit back out out the client .
but it, it, it's ready 
when, when are we likely to, to have the contract reports available?
the q s 
the physical works 
the physical works.
yeah.
we're gonna start specifying that now and brian will, will er 
right.
will start to, to, to work that up.
but of course that can become quite a complex thing depending on how much we want to sort of use it to produce certificates and things like that.
right.
so that's gonna incorporate the q s cost report as well as the physical works is it?
yes.
mm.
yes.
a and that's, that's gonna be quite a complex erm
right.
thing to specify.
as it's a p it's a pound to a penny 
mm.
that, what we're doing at the moment, we won't want to b put it all in this system
fine.
because it will be very complex.
if you want to, if you start building a system that's gonna record every variation that's issued to the client and
make it simple.
print it all back again.
m see if we can make it 
yeah.
fairly simple.
could i just say at this point, this, this is one area where i would envisage us looking critically at what we're doing and, and, and, and altering things quite significantly over the next six months.
keep it simple and build up on it 
beca 
if we need to rather 
yeah.
than go the other way.
mainly because we're doing, we're trying to read the client's mind at the moment.
and w we we're putting together what we think the client wants.
what i'm looking for is feedback from the clients which say, yeah, these reports are alright as far as they go but really i don't want all that information or i want this information.
or 
and i would hope that we, we we enter into that with th that spirit and
mm.
we're prepared to look at the the client reports and change them so that they become as good as we, we can get them.
yeah.
is there anything within these 
it is the first step.
for the prediction of fees?
i mean we've just 
yes.
got something back from intercity on the p s work where they're wa wishing us to predict to certain date what we're gonna be spending over the next six months.
nine months.
the football ?
yeah.
yeah.
well
regional railways have asked for that as well.
have they?
yes.
erm that that
well dennis er roger's been doing for it for leeds north west haven't you?
he has.
yeah.
but he's been doing it manually haven't you rog?
yeah.
yeah.
be be because i don't think you can trust the forecast reports from dopacs.
i think y yo you could blip from month to month er, er as a priority slipped in or changed, or a person slipped out or, or somebody forgot to zero something or y 
it's too fragile isn't it?
it's far too fragile.
mm.
it it's there for us to, to use as a, as a sore thumb exercise to ask questions but, but to actually do anything er, er as critical as saying, we're gonna spend twelve thousand pounds next period and eleven thousand pound the period after and fourteen thousand the period after, er i don't think that's 
computer system's tying your hands behind your back.
yes.
yeah.
yes.
so, so really 
we're gonna have to have a manual involvement or override there by the project coordinator to, to, to
well if, if you remember we, we agreed with keith he would have a think that and a talk to 
yeah.
roy er roy 
you'd remind him about it hugh.
yeah.
but what i'm gonna suggest is that again we go back to the client, and say basically, this is what we think we can provide is that good enough?
mm.
this is what you want.
if we give you that we can give you it in a certain way, but it is not necessarily meaningful.
mhm.
if we do this it will be a lot more meaningful.
is that acceptable?
yeah.
one point 
fine.
that occurred to me where we could 
perhaps give them some flexibility, is that we could say, if that's not acceptable to you, we will delay invoicing.
cos now we don't have to pay interest on our fees,i if, if, if a jam's spread over six months a a a and it might risk and slip to nine months, we might do better to offer to jam spread it over nine months and only invoice for part of the money.
mm.
don't like the sound of that.
er 
the project engineer sits down and manually, let's be honest.
no.
cos he's gonna just divide it by the number and it's it's 
it's it's a very minor part of the operation.
mm.
i think you've got a little bit careful with lots of our jobs which have got 
very very small fees attached to them.
yeah.
yes.
which 
it's, it's hardly worth doing.
at the present time we're saying to on the monthly report we're saying to the client, we've spent three thousand out of five thousand, and their anticipated final cost is going to be five thousand.
yeah.
and i he knows when we're actually gonna finish the job and therefore
mm.
he can almost do that sum himself.
yes.
i agree.
er er i think on a bigger job i it it's perhaps a different story.
the trouble is dennis a lot of our 
little jobs.
a lot of our clients 
but on a bigger job you can, you can put the resource in can't you?
yeah.
but a lot of our client's finance sections, don't see the difference between a big and a little job they see some pigeon holes in their spreadsheet and they want to put something in there.
anything.
and th they, they've got this sort of
but this is where we need to talk to the client 
yes.
of course they are.
isn't it?
j j just agree with client he might, might be prepared to accept on a quarterly basis
yeah.
you know?
i mean we don't necessarily have to give him it every month.
one could argue 
yeah.
if we're not careful we'll be causing him work.
oh.
know what they want half of them anyway when they're 
ah.
let us halt it there.
the customers.
yeah.
as er i said before.
let us sit down, trev, and see what is sensible 
for us to provide them with.
go and talk to them and say look, this is what we can provide to you.
it will be meaningful.
is that good enough?
and the chances are they'll say, bloody hell, that's marvellous.
because what they're getting now is nothing.
mm.
well 
and i'll tell you what, what they're getting from us is infinitely better than they're getting from anybody else.
you see even from leeds north west the outside party job and the p t pay monthly, so it's important that the client knows what he's gonna be facing.
but what we do is we estimate three months
mm.
and divide by three.
yeah.
then you get an average,
not bad.
you know, and that's, that's the way 
what's that mean?
mm?
no.
i think's it's quite generous 
don't be mean .
actually.
next one den.
well.
there aren't any more.
ther there have been quite a few that have come out recently which i haven't briefed.
some of them are fairly minor and it's to read them.
others which are perhaps a little bit of er a change from what we've been used to doing,
mm.
are currently being revised yet again.
so i'll pick them up at the next brief.
right.
i think an hour of this is about enough isn't it?
den that was great.
i mean i know there's been a lot of debate and i know that er you may feel it's been a bit of a waste of time
but the fact that there's been so much debate
if, if, if you say, mary had a little lamb
mary had a 
it will go down in the oxford dictionary or something.
right.
we've got that out the way.
accidents on site.
bridge office report.
fifteen four ninety three.
yeah.
right.
you've got it?
yeah.
we should all have received a report from roger about one or two accidents that have occurred on sites.
one, both were dumpers i think weren't they?
i haven't seen that.
haven't you?
team brief items here we are.
there we are.
haven't you?
tt, tt, tt, tt, tt, tt
they were sent down on time i think weren't they?
you did.
it was a very good report.
oh.
well.
just cos they came down doesn't make the bit of 
here we are.
it was dated the fifteenth of april nineteen ninety three.
erm and erm one was at norfolk park viaduct.
a mobile access platform tipped over, and a steel erector was injured during its recovery.
we briefly mentioned that one last time if you remember.
he had his head jammed or something 
yeah.
mm.
i it shot up in the air 
yeah.
you mentioned 
the man basket 
yeah.
shot upwards and a man's head smashed on the steel girder.
the helmet saved his life.
so.
i think that's worth briefing.
erm 
briefed it last time.
yeah.
right?
okay.
we don't need to do it this time.
we didn't have the facts you see last time.
written down.
it was al it was all facts 
verbally.
yeah.
next one is erm on bridge three o six eight a, reford.
a dumper driver collided with a, a rapid metal development soldier and that's some p part of the temporary works.
striking
jumbo scaffolding.
strike, that's right, jumbo scaffolding,dr striking the driver on the leg.
okay?
the other one on the same site was a driver, a dumper driver, a different one i hasten to add 
collided with the existing structure, crushing his chest against the steering wel wheel.
and i'm 
why?
not sure
makes you wonder doesn't it?
i will say that.
it, it, perhaps there's something wrong with the dumper.
was it 
doesn't it say whether it's the same dumper?
was it the same dumper?
yeah.
no.
it isn't.
what are the recommendations?
what are the report, what, what's in clauses what used to be thirty seven and thirty eight?
recommended course of action and stuff like that.
we're not 
that's a good question terry.
were these dumper drivers certificated?
why it happened?
i mean 
i've of watching brief jobs for which we are not responsible.
oh.
it's nowt to do with us then isn't it?
well.
i'm i mean 
i'm not being facetious but what is the bloody point 
no.
it's s 
in telling us 
i don't know why you're clogging our meetings up with somebody else's accidents.
because i'm supposed to report all accidents 
yeah.
to here.
yes.
he is.
it's it's my 
mm.
fault.
i should 
because 
not have put them on here without considering 
what you said there mr .
yes.
thank you.
erm quite a valid point.
the, unless we want to brief to our staff the potential hazards in er
mm.
well.
the use of dumpers on er sites.
i think we should.
there are two points that i, you would be looking at normally if you were investigating it.
one would be
crippled him.
were the, were th were the dumpers in good working order and had 
yeah.
they been serviced properly?
which is something which happens which is done through r es.
and the other one is did the d what sort of certification did the drivers have?
yeah.
even if it was only a car driver's license.
mm.
and did we er
a a and 
subject them to a drugs and alcohol test
mm.
afterwards.
oh ho
a and was the er was their method of operating the dumper in accordance with the site safety plan?
or was he driving it backwards?
yes.
or whatever.
yeah.
i've seen dumpers driven over 
upside-down maybe.
two bits of sheet piling laid over a ditch and things.
right.
good.
thank you for those all the same roger despite what was said.
d do you want a little one from me then?
yes.
that that near miss thing at erm dewsbury.
oh.
yes.
please.
this is where there wasn't an accident, thank god, but we did find 
out er we had nobody on site at the time.
work had been planned to be carried out during the possession on a saturday night to carry out some pointing 
ha we've had this one.
only
we haven't briefed it.
we haven't briefed it.
did we not brief it last month?
no.
we haven't briefed 
no.
we discussed it.
we did it at the safety meeting.
one which
yeah.
erm work was organized during to saturday night during the possession which included people standing in the four-foot i in the tracks.
and for one reason or another the subcontractor bowled up on site on the saturday afternoon and decided to do it then.
and he set up his own system of work using wal er er lookouts etcetera using er walkie-talkie radios and 
staff exposed themselves to danger by standing in the four-foot.
his staff?
his staff.
yeah.
there was nobody else's staff around at the time.
it's likely we will ban the contractor for three months from, at least three months, from doing the work 
mm.
although h he took a very professional erm attitude in dealing with the inquiry afterwards.
and didn't hide behind erm didn't try to make any excuses.
he said that it had been done wrong.
he's actually sacked his own foreman, the main contractor cos the main, the foreman turned up on site and this i think is one of the lessons to be learnt, is that foreman turned up on site and saw what was happening 
and didn't stop it.
mm.
and so condoned what was going on.
mm.
and it's the major contractor.
er may as well tell you i it's 
so possession had already been arranged?
for the night.
the april the ninth.
for the night.
yeah.
yeah.
but they did it.
mm.
yeah.
that's the only reason we found out, is our supervisor turned up to take possession, and the contractor's guy said, there's no point, we've done it.
so.
we've actually found it.
could have been an inquiry into a death.
quite easily.
er yeah.
thank you for that terry
it was at dewsbury?
dewsbury station.
yeah.
i think the message is there that er we took a dim view of it and we have now 
yeah.
removed them from our approved list for a, a period.
erm to show how serious we consider 
mm.
and the subbie by the way who did the work 
the incident to be.
we're banning him for further and i'm gonna 
whatever.
saying, ban him for life.
again.
yeah.
good.
.
what was his name?
i'll let you know.
in fact i'll let you have a copy of what i've got this 
yeah.
p pa pete i think.
that's that's where we're likely to drop the clanger.
pete .
yeah.
.
cos he might 
ah.
but pete might just come out in his wife's name next week 
mm.
and start trading.
you've got no idea.
this subcontractor has worked for for a number of years.
so.
it's not a fly by night firm.
no.
yes.
cos they'd be in .
well.
he'd just
good.
job done.
go to the wedding but 
yeah.
that's what's probable.
oh my god 
alright.
okay let's have a look.
right?
next one.
i'm gonna go into the erm the irish route improvements thing we talked about this morning.
which norm that.
yeah.
i know about that.
okay.
right.
potential work.
erm chris 's visit on the eleventh of june, i think we briefed last time?
yeah.
yeah.
er i think it's just worth mentioning again that it's still on and er i, i think er it is really more important than ever now for us to impress on chris what good work we do because er of the changing situation within the industry.
and the more people that know what good work we do the better.
provision of photographic services.
over to you my friend.
oh.
provision of photographic services?
right.
erm just to say that, just to confirm the note sent round that erm we will only pay for any photographic services by intercity east coast if it has been procured using a task request form in accordance with the same way we procure any other internal b r er service.
now.
surely if all we want is prints off existing things all you need do is a request with a dopacs number?
yeah.
surely not you know fill in a task form in for print off a couple of negs.
is this the external
yes.
request request for external 
mm?
services?
well.
b b w w why?
why can't you just use a task request form that says.
please p 
well.
i mean 
please provide 
prints off the following negative numbers 
four number eight by eight prints off these t off, off negative numbers so and so.
splendid.
are you gonna write 
and put the dopacs number on.
you're gonna on something.
yeah.
copy it to andrew and then andrew knows when the i b i s invoice comes forward that it's something to be 
then he'll sign it off.
paid for.
because we've got thousands of i b i s invoices that come to us that are not for us.
and, and unless we've actually got an i er a request to back it 
up
okay.
good.
good.
you're pointing
a and it's come from peter 
oh.
will you stop being .
you've got to do something wrong 
it's come from peter 
mm.
they will not, they, they want to be erm procured in a structured way, such that they know they're gonna get paid.
mm.
right.
that's it.
i have, unfortunately have some view forms and it doesn't look as though we've got a an overhead projector.
what a shame.
we have.
it's in the permanent way office's secure room.
no.
i mean in here.
you .
but you never told me to bring it down.
no.
but we could send for it.
if
oh.
no.
no.
no.
let's not bother.
alright.
i'll, i'll quickly run through.
what it is it's the intercity core brief
oh!
that's why i 
i've seen it.
we've had it, a copy of it 
have you got a copy of this?
yeah.
yeah.
good.
good, good, good, good, good.
have we?
yeah.
what's it about?
does it tell us who's gonna own this 
it gives us feedback 
this line?
on the core nine brief
aargh.
it gives us an update on privatization reorganization most of which has appeared 
anything?
in railnews.
right.
and it gives us a er tt details of the current intercity marketing strategy which is again 
not interested in that either.
yeah.
we, we have 
good.
that's right.
and get a green ticket .
so.
they're encouraging people to drive their bloody cars
yeah.
burn more fuel and just travel on a train.
extra fuel 
environmental .
yeah.
it is.
next time any other business 
right.
so.
hello den.
i've i've just come back on that d two stop three.
no.
sorry.
yes.
please do den.
right.
the, the d two stop three the work of an 
ah.
urgent nature
yeah.
erm that was actually issued some time ago but wasn't briefed.
but it was quite a significant change that we were 
oh.
so we d we
d seven was er er work on emergent nature 
yeah.
indeed.
no.
it's been put through as the procedures.
yes.
cos people 
d seven was the acknowledgement 
so.
so that was to say that we'd w 
yeah.
withdrawn d two point three.
yeah.
and now you've reused it somewhere else?
and erm and subsequently we've actually withdrawn
withdrawn 
this particular d two stroke three.
so if you look in your manual you've now onl only got one d two stroke 
yeah.
three 
rather than two d one, right.
a a a and the, and the, and the d seven bit is, is in a different section?
is covered by part d two stroke one.
right.
thank you dennis.
you're a 
good lad.
right.
could i just quickly look through here?
i, i did have a go through this core brief to see if there were any things that i should have picked out.
there there is a good section, there's a good section on pensions 
by the way because our staff will be concerned about pension proposals after privatization.
is it?
it's section one point five.
if you view files three to five.
the main message i would give is that 
the board has responded to the government with regard to the pensions issue, and suggested a number of improvements to the government's proposals.
yeah.
the scheme 
the board's 
did that didn't it?
yeah.
the board considers the b r employe employees who transfer involuntary involuntarily to the private sector should return an indefensible right to remain as members of the joint industry 
scheme .
we've seen all that.
but that, that's only a suggestion.
it's not been 
yes.
yeah.
i mean wasn't this, wasn't this 
well.
they're not
one of these things where they 
let's, let's pick out something positive.
they actually put forward some proposals, whereby what do you call him withdrew the clause and wrote another one which negated anything that was said before?
pardon?
that sounds a wonderful idea when does it
who's what's her name?
.
pass.
what do you call the secretary of state?
freeman.
mcgregor?
oh.
freeman.
roger freeman secretary for 
yeah.
no.
mcgregor's secretary of state.
roger freeman's transport 
well.
transport minister then.
i, i 
thought that the board had complained and put forward some suggestions.
it said in the
mm.
t s s a circular
whereby 
freeman withdrew the clause, wrote another one which meant that you had to go back to stage one again.
it wasn't very helpful.
and that was in your t s s a circular
mm.
about 
right.
a fortnight 
ago.
i sus well, i, i found that quite interesting the bit on pensions.
th 
yeah.
th the bit that i found most interesting was at least the board are trying to look after our interests in that respect.
er and i think it's, watch that space.
isn't it?
yes.
does that seem reasonable?
without wading through it all and things are moving on 
yeah.
fairly quickly.
there's 
still nothing black and white.
no.
gripping stuff isn't it this?
yeah.
right.
n nothing more there?
if anyone wants to borrow the core brief, they're welcome to do so.
ken would like to read it.
ha we got, have we got a copy upstairs?
norman has a copy.
that's fine.
well nor norman can brief them.
yeah.
if he thinks so.
if you think so.
may i?
yeah.
erm and that's it.
good.
thank you very much.
no rule review?
rule review.
have we finished 
rule review and team brief.
shall i get?
we've finished the 
rule review today at four.
can i, can i just ask one thing if we've finished 
i'm 
and any other business?
right.
plan printing.
we're again 
plan printing 
we're having problems with getting the 
drawings back from plan plinters 
i'm astounded.
are we 
i think we, we complained to you and you complained
er i 
did i, i, i, i've i've had 
and 
a letter back this week from him.
forty eight hour turnaround?
s saying saying that er he's had lots of erm glowing testimonials from our 
complimentary letters would you believe?
staff er and he assumes that er everything's back to normal and hunky- dory.
well.
it isn't.
i mean we we're saying we had things down there in excess of three days.
and we're not getting them back, short 
see you.
bye.
isn't it horrible?
mm.
i'm getting 
innit?
i bet she'll bloody wait up for susan to ring.
oh i expect so, aye.
susan won't ring.
she said to her in the week when she rung she won't ring until i thought it was like midnight last night she was getting in and she wasn't gonna ring till today but it'll be tomorrow she'll ring her.
yeah.
she'll wait up.
sure as eggs is eggs.
as long as she doesn't bloody ring us to say oh susan's just rung.
i'll clonk her if she does.
you know what she's like.
ooh it's quiet innit ?
surely is.
must be cos it's so horrible.
did you say you were working with roy tomorrow?
well i might be, i don't know.
bloody ballbag'll probably phone me in the morning or something.
i might be going to er ellesmere port, there's coffin stones to get up, they've got er hoist thing there so i don't know.
yeah?
i might be there or i might be with roy, i don't know.
will you be home any earlier than you have been?
we might try and put all the on tomorrow and if they do they'll just work till they get them on .
i don't know.
i think.
what i was thinking.
eh?
what i was thinking then.
oh god i can't stop yawning .
pop the lock on.
i can take these if you bring the grey bag.
right.
sally's off tomorrow and tuesday as well.
i think she 
one of the jobs we are doing is to identify what schemes they're planning that they won't need to build.
that's not possible.
if you need a larger one that that 
that's what it says.
i've got a
no but
template.
on a bridge bit 
why not?
it's, it's that's really linked to do we need to do the caernarvon link if we're doing the bypass?
do they need to do the they've proposed that they to bypass erm if we're doing the caernarvon bypass.
well can they detrunk that bit?
well it doesn't say that.
well can they detrunk that bit?
responsibility not 
yeah.
theirs if they put the bypass in.
so what came out of this, well it could be 
so are they looking to build a bypass first?
the gut reaction this morning is we could end up with a bypass scheme at the end of it and no caernarvon link.
oh that's no good is it?
of course it is.
cos we're still continuing designing a caernarvon link .
four percent fee .
mind you it's, it's a smaller job.
what's smaller?
well if they're doing that then we s we're looking to make this a dual carriageway on the richard principle that if it's a trunk road it's worth building a dual, a dual carriageway.
if you can convince him on traffic grounds fair enough.
so they're serious 
course the initial thing is we get some reaction back from this, this 
so they're seriously looking to the trunk road network coming down bypass and then going off round the caernarvon bypass?
or is that just 
that wasn't er ray 's view.
that was this other guy's view.
based on this other scheme really he said oh yes.
but which,whi which other guy?
this ve vernon whatever his name is.
the are proposing this.
they won't want that.
they wo they won't 
but the the guy that's looking after the schemes 
yeah.
guy.
he's what?
he's looking after the schemes for the leisure office.
oh!
oh he wasn't from .
sorry i thought he was
he was from the leisure office looking after the .
right.
got it.
that's what it's, he's interest 
right.
yes.
very good.
well
right.
have a lovely meeting.
seminar
i will yes.
er you're going on this thing at the end of the month?
meetings yes.
there'd appear to be out of this office.
there seems to be an awful lot of us going, yeah.
i'll o i'll only be there friday morning and saturday.
i won't be there friday afternoon since i'm taking my son to the dentist .
i do wonder if it's really w er i mean 
okay.
see you tomorrow.
you won't.
i'm in chester all day tomorrow.
manchester all day wednesday.
l e c visit thursday, friday.
busy man.
i'd better get me timesheet out of 
it's signed.
oh it's signed.
oh that's alright.
we don't want bothering us do we?
er where were we?
mm?
where were we?
we were drawing up plans.
it looks as though we're gonna be doing some extra survey work.
mm.
ah that's what i was saying what
yeah, now
detail on roundabouts.
right.
how much staff did we use?
can, can you the erm the ormskirk
oh, that's a pity.
track of methodology but 
push to get steve today.
well i left a message with his saying 
were any of these four arm rou it's a five arm roundabout isn't it?
were any of these four arm roundabouts?
yes 
we did that one didn't we?
we need to do these 
yeah that was roundabout.
that was a six arm.
and we did that one.
yeah that was a
that's five arms isn't it?
five.
what other ones did we do?
that one there?
hello charlie.
we did, yeah, we did the here.
that was a five arm.
well these down here about fifteen or sixteen 
oh yeah well th yeah 
the motorways were four arm.
how many staff do we need to do that then?
the full turn in count.
suppose, well supposing we count ins and outs and the 
yeah.
sample.
right.
you need one t to where, where were, where we talking about now?
st david.
see you're gonna get some busier than others.
yes.
if they were all as busy as each other you've gotta have one doing ins and one doing outs.
but on quiet roads, one person can do ins and outs.
i'll er i'll 
yeah just get something done and i'll be back 
okay.
and we'll go through it.
on the queensferry bypass, on the interchange there it was five hours.
it's only really a four and a half hour roundabout isn't it?
yes but one is out and
yeah.
yeah.
so you can obviously that's gonna just be one person.
one person could do a two way on a quiet arm but the others are gonna need one person to do ins, one person to do outs.
and one person at each arm doing a sample.
so you've got nine plus four did we do a sample all day?
no, just in the peak hours they're sampling.
didn't we do them off peak as well?
we should have done them off peak as well shouldn't we?
i don't know.
i mean jan did those.
i think it was just peak hours.
er it's gonna take thirteen people isn't it?
yeah, i mean if it was peaks only i mean there's nothing to stop me doing it.
well i appreciate that.
or you use it, you put everybody on in the peaks
yeah.
and then you, you 
you use the
cutback
in the off, in the off peak they rotate the staff and 
i'm not the thing is what you're assuming then is that the pattern in the peak hour is typical for the day as a whole.
that's not right is it?
mm maybe not.
well you'll get a different pattern in the morning peak and the evening peak for a start won't you?
mhm.
mind you maybe you won't.
depends, what you're really concerned about is how does the proportion of traffic split to left and right and straight ahead isn't it?
if that pattern basically stays the same then you've got, the volume, the flow will go up and down.
mm right.
but if we did a full turning count how would we do that?
you can't do it can you?
it's not realistic.
you have to do if you're doing that you have to have all the ins and outs plus a circulation flow.
yeah.
and i've never done one like that.
we've always you know, found a way round it.
what we did before, was we did counting in flows and circulating.
i think what we would do supposing we didn't, supposing we just had heavy vehicles and light vehicles?
that's gonna make things a lot easier isn't it?
yeah well we, for queensferry we just had three classes.
motorbikes, cars, light goods h g v including two three and four axle and buses for the, for the whole count, now for the samples rob didn't even want it classified.
it was just a vehicle regardless of what it was.
yeah.
i suppose we could do a classified count er on the a four eight seven sort of a bit away if we wanted a proper classified count couldn't we?
yeah.
separate, on another day.
yeah.
or we could just use whatever we get at the interview side.
erm perhaps the thing to do is to look at how it varied in nineteen eighty six.
did you get that report out?
yes you did.
how it varied between the two sides.
there's three thousand one hundred there.
mhm.
that's two way.
on a twelve hour day.
so assu you're talking about, well supposing that 's grown, it may be four thousand, so you're talking about two thousand tr vehicles in the interview direction over twelve hours.
so you're gonna want to interview forty percent right?
how many do you think you'll need?
do you think you'll need if you have t a team of four on, is that a half team or a six team?
a half.
a four.
we did have we worked a six team but it's not as easy to work out.
i'm only thinking that you've got somebody counting?
yeah.
there's one person counting?
two.
two people counting.
yeah.
one's on a break.
two.
sorry?
oh what are you on about now?
when th there's a half team?
a half team.
right yeah.
if there's a half team one people, one person counting one on a break and two interviewing.
and they have a break every three hours.
can one person count and cope with that sort of flow?
no i'd want two people.
two people counting?
oh what are you on about now?
on this this quieter roa oh right.
er yeah one person would be alright.
that's the same sort of flow as we had a birkdale cop.
mm.
isn't it?
we only had half a team there.
right.
yep that's alright then.
well my feeling on the roundabout is that we need to do, count ins and outs and do a sample.
okay.
and erm i think that's the thing to do.
yeah.
see the, so say if we, like you just said, we need thirteen people
mm.
but there's only gonna be two days.
if we've got two roundabouts there's only gonna be two days when we need that thirteen people.
so when we're 
two roundabouts?
there's that other roundabout isn't there?
you know where the horses were in the field?
that was a four armed roundabout.
just down from 
yeah.
the station house place where we parked 
you'll find that erm the flows there are very low.
so you think we could get away with treating that as a crossroads and have people 
i reckon 
doing that?
i reckon 
well we could have a person counting and not only are they counting what's coming out of their junction, but they could do left, straight on or right.
treat it as a crossroads perhaps.
i reckon si yes four or six people would cover that, no problem.
i think you'll find the flow is a a low 
it wasn't busy when we were there was it?
no i mean it may be, you know you i it may be reasonably busy straight through but i would have thought even there you're probably talking about four not a lot higher than that i wouldn't have thought.
no.
okay i'll take four people 
and erm we're going very round very slow.
and the visibility was good and everything.
so i'd have thought that erm you could put four or six, four or six people on that.
and actually if we just counted this to through traffic wouldn't be too much 
hello right.
your pudding?
what erm have you heard any of it?you have.
what did it sound like?
it's good.
we both just said that it ne you'd never think that you sound right on tape.
i always think i sound high pitched.
sounds all like bloody what she does say.
yeah 
nearly didn't recognize you there jimbo.
me?
no, sorry another jim.
oh.
jim with a suit on.
must be going to a funeral.
or going for an interview.
i've just seen yeah he must have an interview.
ooh.
oh god .
you'll never guess who was in the pub yesterday.
you're right.
no!
mm.
i'm afraid.
mm.
i just heard you, heard you twang twanging your ruler.
doing.
twanging?
twanging.
did you, did anybody see that film about erm st the stolen cars?
the other night, what ?
friday night.
mm no.
no.
what station was that on?
erm i dunno, it was one of these er documentary type things and it was just like all organized crime, they were just erm
saying of all, all the things that they get up to you know,cutting using a stolen car
mhm.
or a write off car and joining them and welding them
yeah.
down the middle.
cos that's what happened to brian, you know when brian had his orion nicked?got stopped in 
the cars or something?
little sutton cars.
and then, it's taking him ages to get 
has he got it now though?
yeah.
but er the things that they were doing were just unbelievable.
erm you know to get the chassis numbers and that.
buying old say a scrapped a written off sierra you know, picking them up cheap for about a thousand quid from the scrappy
yeah.
and then getting all the the chassis numbers and that and welding them on to these stolen cars and because what, you know, er siobhan's dad had a, bought a montego and i don't know how it came about but they discovered that erm it had a diff i mean it's had a maestro engine in it and it had this that and the other.
and er they had to repossess it and he was paying .
and i don't know how, what's happened about it now but at the time he was still having to pay for it
mhm.
even though they'd taken the car.
there was a woman there that erm the police do this service thing where they'll look a car over for you, if you bought a car that you know has been er in an accident and it's been 
yeah.
they will have a look at it over and check it over.
and there was a woman on it, she had a really nice orion, a j reg.
anyway when they had a good look at it the front half was an escort and the back half was an orion, half a stolen car.
you know they hadn't even matched the same bloody type of car.
there's not really a lot of difference though is there between 
there is 
well there isn't and i i said to mike what did it look like, you know?
he said it was nice.
but when they're doing these welding jobs they haven't got them on those things so as they're doing it like it's all moving and 
yeah.
yeah they're totally 
it was just a complete bodge.
i if you're driving along you can throw out the balance of the car.
yeah.
well it was that erm one in manchester, that crash you know there was three people killed in the middle of manchester wasn't there?
oh i seem to remember something like that.
erm and the car just broke up in half and that was, that had been er welded but like the police are saying as well as soon as they sort of get wise to what they're doing and they find a way to er you know, get on to them, they devised something else.
and the people doing it in these garages erm, you know like respraying and doing all the welding and everything, really he said some of the things they were doing if they did it legally they'd make a good go of it
mm.
they were that good at what they were doing.
tell me was i dreaming or did i see a sketch on t v where there's a car driving round, down the road being chased by the police and the driver said to the passenger er here take this and he says what's that for and he says it's to steer the car, presses a button and the car splits
it's an advert for malcolm.
the car s the car split in two.
yeah.
a yellow car.
it's an advert for that film called malcolm
is that what it was?
about the
yeah.
retarded lad that invented all these strange and he did bank robberies with a remote control car.
it was an advert, it wasn't 
but i did see it on the t v?
oh you did.
oh that's fine.
straight after er the advert for del-boy when he says and you know what you can do with that.
even talking about trailers now.
trainers?
talking about te television trailers.
oh, oh yeah.
not just the programmes.
there was a programme on about trailers the other night as well.
have you seen the, the advert for these trainers with no laces, you just tighten the thing up.
puma discus system.
they're out on the twenty of march or something.
mm.
i wonder how much they're gonna be a pair?
dunno.
la laces are a thing of the past.
watch this space or something.
yeah.
something like that.
i thought it was a built in egg timer or something .
obviously another time saving device.
yeah.
to save you what say thirty seconds?
oh at least.
ah there's no point getting cynical is there?
not at this time of the day, no.
not on a monday.
rest of the week.
exactly.
where did he go?
i thought you were going out?
i i'm finishing early but i'm not go going out.
watch you don't er swallow that the wrong way.
i didn't even have anything in me mouth.
sharp intake of breath.
excuse me?
for their telephone number i've just put a question mark and i've put a note here to say i was internally transferred.
s sounds like i've had an operation doesn't it?
i'm being internally transferred .
oh.
someone pressed the i c m button.
yeah.
oh i told you didn't i that er the fellow with the portakabins that does work for the b b c, he had the portakabin and then your tables are two pound each, and your chairs range from fifty pence to one pound fifty.
i think the ones that are fifty pence are those blue and white striped ones off the prom at prestatyn 
job lot.
and er he didn't say how much the toilet was but that'll probably be separate.
you know, it's a separate thing so there must be a separate price, it would cost a bloody fortune.
and the visibility didn't seem very good out of them.
but the smallest one, the twelve foot ones, there's only one window.
the door's in the back end.
erm so i presume that was the opposite end to where the tow bar would be
mm.
and then just one window in it.
maybe just down the length of one side.
or even just at the end.
yeah.
no i think it was down the side i think he said.
but i i think that'll be too expensive anyway.
mhm.
and that's why mr said he he'd er
he'd do it, yeah.
and we know where we are then with the toilet.
you know, you know what you're getting don't you?
yeah.
how much ?
yeah it'd be erm jim said there would be no problem because his men have to empty their own chemical loos anyway.
but the bowl coupling could be a problem.
he said but we'll sort it out, don't worry love.
they're all very nice people.
they have got an accent this 's got one but he sounds more lancashire than anything.
and he's nowhere near.
perhaps he's just moved there.
mm.
i'll have to er give her a ring to and tell them to send me the advert.
tell them to buy .
mhm.
when does it go out?
i don't know.
today.
is it going in the post?
no.
didn't we tell you that?
to have it in er daily post, the post is the morning one the echo's the evening to have it in for one day in the post and the echo, how much?
dunno, about eighty quid.
three hundred and ninety six pound sixty four pence.
so you said we'll have it in all week?
how big was the advert?
er about a hundred words in a box.
two columns wide and erm eight centimetres down.
we reckoned that was about quarter of a page.
it's a lot of money isn't it?
but see the reason i have to send this to liverpool for them to put it in
mhm.
cos it has to go through our advertising agents.
cos we advertise in a special format don't we?
we have the dash lines round the box
mm.
and we have the logo on the bottom and that.
so they've had to do it so i mean she quoted me 
thirty six quid for this thirty six eighty four or something for the local paper.
but erm you know it might be more but that's 
mhm.
nothing to do with me.
but i mean like i didn't think it was worth putting it in the post to start off with anyway.
but if we don't get a good response to this i might stick it in for the day in the post.
mhm.
is the secretary at dealing with it or is she gonna forward it all on to you?
no i've put our address.
i said that i didn't like that idea to start off with 
no well it 
because although it's only a small concern she's gonna have her own stuff to do.
it's not just that it's the delay in it getting to you anyway.
yeah and plus the fact i said to mike it's all very well saying send stuff there, she can open it she'd be no wiser whether they sound any good or not.
mm.
so i said no i said, well i've put the phone number as well and i said it might as well, stuff might as well come straight here.
mhm.
so i'll give her a ring later in the week or something and i'll see if they'll send me the send me the 
mhm.
policing do you the drop the e, or do you leave the e in?
in.
policing.
erm i'd have thought you dropped it.
what shall i say cos it's it's not a very
sergeant said he would be happy to help with the policing oh 
if you drop the e it looks like policing doesn't it?
put it in.
yeah, i think maybe you keep it in.
it's not a very nice word is it?
well i'm just coming to ask you that 
staffing.
yeah.
double f. 
have you got the twenty five hundred plans?
i haven't got any just at the moment.
er sergeant will be
beg your pardon?
sergeant 
oh yes?
erm very pleased to help us.
as soon as we've got the layouts he'd like to meet us and go out to site .
he seems very keen to help us do this.
right what about the er recruiting and the police cover?
he's 
so do we need to write
he said on the blower 
i've started it.
yeah it's about two hundred and twenty four pages.
is that all?
yeah 
well he is.
he says he will do it himself.
and i said they will require cover for their breaks he fell down on that one, he doesn't think those two days.
he said oh yes, yes they could have a sandwich .
he seems very 
good.
excellent.
right.
mm that doesn't 
they're in the same 
any records of, we had this discussion i have er any rec any, every telephone call i make .
right 
but that's because 
well that's right .
i mean it's a case, and then you end up saying yes and you don't need to record every telephone call 
they're in the same drawer as the memos.
they're in the bottom 
well i mean she could 
yeah and the alternative you know mi mike's made calls in the past .
that's always been very important and that should be the letter so that should be on on the, on the 
must be a good microphone stand surely?
brilliant
the purpose of the meeting is only to record conversations.
right.
let's see where we're going.
okay, just to put you in the picture where 
no it's alright.
go on.
yes.
i've had several telephone calls well i've made them as well.
the advert has gone in.
i've done all enquiries about putting the advert in for the temps.
yes.
it went to liverpool on friday and they were gonna do their best to get it done and
do we know when it goes in the er
i think i told liverpool that if it gets to erm caernarvon to the caernarvon office by today it will appear in this week's issue.
do we know when that comes out?
no, i couldn't get that off her.
off who?
well i asked the girl and the she, we sort of sidetracked and when i come off the phone i realized that she hadn't said.
i think it's 
what i'm thinking of is that
thursday or something like that.
presumably after that we w or on that date we'll start to get phone calls?
this is true.
and we need to be prepared
yep.
because obviously er i mean if you're in
yeah.
they can be rung through to you but p erm will need to be warned that we may get a flood of phone calls
yeah.
and what they're about.
and also i think it might be as well to have a pro forma.
probably you've got one.
yeah, well no we haven't so we could probably do with doing 
oh 
that and then, you know like if i get inundated i can let jim do some.
well that's right.
i mean really it, it's erm er we, we have a form don't we we, we use when people are interviewed for something or other?
well if we put their name and address and phone number on it, i mean it's probably just as well to use a standard thing that you can xerox.
yeah.
maybe jim and i could 
and when they ring up 
do that this avo 
yeah.
when they ring up we can just say oh yes, what's your ?
now look this is meant to record
this, this, this is meant to record
life as it is lived, english as she is spoken.
you're not meant to bite your tongue like that.
right.
yeah if we 
you can swear in the privacy of your own home.
it was your company that i didn't want to swear in front of 
not the tape actually 
yes alright 
no if we er do something so as they have a checklist and we can all, you know like me and jim say, have a copy to say oh right, can we take your name and address, telephone number 
and if you've got a pad of them or or, or some by you you can just fill it in and let it go through.
yeah that'd be a good idea 
write the name and address and phone number down and then 
yeah.
it's there.
okay i'll buy that.
cos you you'll almost certainly need to ring them back.
yeah.
even if it's to say erm
oh sorry!
sorry we've got enough.
yeah okay.
erm and that also makes sure, if you've got it all in front of you, erm that ensures that you're getting all the information that you need rather than thinking oh hang on, what else do i need sort of thing.
right, so that's the temporary staff.
yep.
so what we haven't made any progress on beyond, on that side of things is erm if we do the coding over in caernarvon, where that will be.
yeah.
erm like i think we all sort of ruled out er 
i don't think it's big enough is it?
because of the size, no.
er just out of interest i did ring the other day 
yeah right.
er the the room, the smallest room they have is for twenty five to thirty people
mm.
which i mean even that may be too big for what we want.
erm in any case that is in use every week on a monday and a wednesday.
so already you're only talking 
there was a thing about exams.
wasn't it didn't you ring them up and they said we have exams on or something?
no.
that must be something 
something goes on in that room on a monday and a wednesday.
which room is that?
that's the, i've got it in the file, a small conference room or something like that, or the committee room or something it's called.
cos there is a room called the navigation room.
no that wasn't an that wasn't an option.
there was this one for twenty five to thirty people and then there was another one for say forty or fifty and then it zoomed up to like a hundred.
and even if we were to use this 
oh i know now, yes.
small room, you couldn't leave anything on the walls so it would all be a come down at night, back up in the morning 
what erm er did you look in the file and see what they hired last time?
erm no.
cos it may 
i mean i've probably seen it
yeah.
but i can't remember.
cos probably it will say what room it was.
yeah it was this small, i 
it may well have been ano 
think it was this i thought it was the small 
oh it was that one was it?
well you're talking now 
anyway 
do you want me to get it?
er have you got it on your desk?
yes.
oh right 
how many days are we talking about anyway?coding data.
couple of weeks i suppose.
right.
no wait a minute, three sites you're talking about a week and a half or something aren't we?
yeah.
fortnight at the most.
yeah.
cos you've got to allow for like they might not have done it before.
erm but you're talking fifty eight pound a day
mm.
for that small room which i think's a bit steep personally.
let me take a look.
it's er 
it's possible that you did get on the the 
it crossed my mind.
there's the oak's room.
can't 
the oak's room up to a hundred and twenty.
four pound per hour.
sixteen pound a day.
and what are you saying it is now?
fifty eight pound a day.
that's an awful lot more isn't it?
yeah.
there's i mean so many of them have caught on.
jan for example, when we had the the town hall thing, that was five pound a day.
yeah.
it's twenty five pound a day now.
i think they've just all jumped on the bandwagon.
they don't provide anything really do they?
well no, that's it.
so as soon as she said that it was in use monday wednesday i sort of 
if we went to 
subconsciously ruled it out.
village hall, church hall
yeah ?
which is a church hall, they don't have a charge, you have to make a contribution.
where's this sorry?
well you, you need to, it's pretty grotty, it's a grim place
mm.
but it's er it's the church the parish hall in .
whether they've got tables and stuff like that i'm not sure.
mm.
if you ring roger 
yeah
and ask him.
he did investigate having a public enquiry there last year.
and erm so he will have a phone number of the vicar and so on.
mm okay.
okay.
i mean in a w well i can't, did we, i wonder if we recharge this to the welsh office or not?
we probably do.
probably doesn't matter does it?
no i would have thought
the other thing might be to ring up borough council cos they've got offices in caernarvon.
suppose that that place they might, there might be a er a parish hall there or something 
that pub would be alright wouldn't it?
yeah.
okay, or 
that would be twenty five pound a day as well, or fifty pound a day as well .
anyway it's a thought.
i mean if we have to 
er obviously what you're saying with it's already in use and we can't have it?
yeah.
it's not erm it's no good just saying oh we can have three days out of the week anyway.
no.
you know, it's gotta be monday to friday or none at all hasn't it?
mm.
well if it was four days it would be alright but
mm.
anyway 
okay so they're a few options to try as regards the coding 
alright and if we can't find anyway where we'll have to out and come back here.
yeah.
problem as well.
i think we, we should find somewhere.
yeah.
really.
erm so that's a few options as regards the coding.
now 
right 
the interviewing and the briefing session i think we'll probably get away with in debbie 's 
yeah we're not going to, i mean we're only going to we're, we're 
well it's not a sort of formal interview 
we'll only be briefing the interview staff
that's right.
and accounts staff.
yeah.
so we're only talking about half a dozen 
well i think it's slightly more.
well eight or ten or something isn't it?
yeah.
thanks.
thanks .
yeah you're talking about a dozen people, something like that aren't you?
i mean for that er
well if necessary we can bring them into here.
yeah.
half a dozen and half a dozen 
yeah.
that's, i can't see that being a problem, that should be okay .
have you briefed before?
yeah.
well mike comes out.
mike shows his face doesn't he?
well he did for the wigan one.
i did it for the erm ormskirk one 
yeah.
that was okay wasn't it?
we did that in two shifts didn't we?
two days.
yeah.
two mornings.
we had a hell of a lot of staff though didn't we?
that was a, we did that in the conference room downstairs.
mm.
erm right.
what w w 
and anyway 
we now, we've, we've also got to progress on site layout and things haven't we?
yes.
and get in er the cones and signs.
yeah i've had er 
we, we, you've got we've got to wait till tomorrow haven't we?
that's right, yeah.
yeah.
now as regards signs i've spoke to numerous, oh school holidays i've got erm 
when the schools are off.
right.
i spoke to the education department on friday.
erm as regards a caravan i spoke to this bloke frank 
no he's gone bust.
well he hasn't gone bust but they don't hire them any more
oh right.
but i did try him.
er no gwyllam at gwyneth county council
gwyllam oh no i'm thinking of peter .
erm he didn't think they had any bilingual signs and they didn't have they weren't using their portakabins so they scrapped them all last year sold them off.
mm.
but he did give me somebody to ring about caravans
mm.
but then later on in the day he rung back and said he had found some bilingual signs but all he's got were about four foot square er with census point ahead.
he hasn't got things like stop census.
stop if required or slow census point which is the ones we use.
it might be worth asking erm mel 
yeah.
about that.
you see for a start we need to decide to we need it.
do we need them
bilingual?
bilingual?
they can't have been bilingual last time because they were hired from staffordshire county council.
no.
and the other thing er if they they just haven't got anything like that.
yeah.
they use sort of blank 
wasn't there a big fuss though because there wasn't enough effort made on the bilingual side the last survey we did?
i don't think so was there?
there's a letter in the file 
well that's 
about erm why we didn't use bilingual staff for one of the particular dates.
erm it come from the county surveyor, apparently he'd had complaints.
but i mean it was purely a re a recruiting problem.
er you know erm the letter, the reply went back from dave saying that every you know, possible thing was done to get bilingual staff but at the end of the day you know they couldn't come up with the goods.
i mean the lengths they went to advertising, i hope we're gonna have more luck now.
they had temping agencies, job centres, local papers the job centre only came up with about two people.
so i'm touching wood that we're gonna be in a different situation.
i wonder if, i wonder if erm you know if you rang up erm the county council and said you know i mean er y just make use of a contact and say look, we wanna do this survey, you know, do you happen to know a any members of your family 
yeah.
you know?
it maybe
yeah.
you can very often er for instance at cheshire very often i mean there were sort of some people's wives would like to do it.
yeah.
it may be, you know?
yeah.
see how the response goes with this and then
who is it you've spoken to at gwyneth?
er gwyllam .
and where is he?
who, how did you get hold of him?
erm 
you rang up, did you ring up owen ?
er no.
i spoke i just rung up erm it was highways and transportation and 
mm.
i asked to speak to somebody in the highways in the transportation
mm.
this was at bangor and then i got another number and then i got told that they now have the direct organisation
right.
so then i rung this person here and spoke to a steven 
mm.
who was the head from the civi civil engineering division.
yeah.
steven put me through to this gwyllam 
right.
who is in the, the depot place.
right.
and that's how i got on to him.
okay.
so we've not spoken to anybody on the sort of like the traffic erm counting side of things there?
no.
no.
okay.
so this fella was, he come up, he found these signs and said, you know, didn't know if they would be, be any good.
erm but he'd given me this number, glen about portakabins.
er he's at .
and i rung this glen er wherever that is erm and he does have these portakabin things.
er several measurements
is that, that's a hire company is it?
yeah, they're like they've got a big fleet of them.
erm 
right.
but they're portakabins?
yeah, rather than caravans.
yeah.
now i don't think they sound very to suit our needs.
well you have to furnish them as well don't you?
well that's it.
and there's all separate, two pound a table from fifty pence to one pound fifty for a chair.
there's no toilet in them 
and you probably have to hire them by the week do you?
er minimum of four weeks.
yeah.
and how do you move them around?
well they would move them round this fella himself, but it's gonna be a hell of a lot of money to get them to do that.
mm that's what i would have thought.
plus there's no toilet.
exactly.
but he has a separate toilet.
well that's all gonna be extra as well.
mm.
and erm
so how much you talking about?
for a twelve foot one 
well you're talking 
twenty two pounds?
yeah.
so you're talking about eighty eight quid?
yeah.
it would be cheaper to get david .
yeah well i've spoke to david .
he's quite willing to take the caravan out there.
erm and then you've got the toilet on there.
you know what you're getting because we've had it before.
so then i got back on to gwyllam and said that if we provided our own caravan, would you someone there be willing to do the from site to site and he said that wouldn't be a problem.
right.
but he doesn't know any details.
okay.
er you know i mean just like we don't.
we don't know dates or anything yet do we?
no.
so i think we've developed in that direction that i can go ahead as soon as i've got some dates and book it properly with mr .
i think that's probably the best.
and just let these do the transporting because this this fella honest to god he was doing me head in.
erm saying oh one left, we've got a contract with the b b c you know, isn't it.
oh and if he said it once well he said it half a dozen times trying to impress me.
so let's stick to mr .
we know where we are with him.
oh right, yes well i'm quite happy with that.
right.
er so the only other thing are the automatic counters then isn't it?
mm.
yeah.
and we, we've got to wait for erm mel to be in tomorrow.
haven't we?
yeah.
and we're obviously going to ask him to 
he, he
to go ahead with it.
looks after, i, i'm not sure exactly what he does, but he does sort of look after the welsh office's own traffic counting programme.
mm.
they have a sort of programme of their own on er doing counts on roads.
i mean a and most of it's done through the county councils.
so we'll have certain sites that are counted and they have the, the equipment.
er when we last did the work there in nineteen eighty nine he'd, he'd provided gwyneth with three machines which they moved round and put on different places for us.
and i think they're ones that have a cartridge in.
and the information's recorded on the cartridge.
and they take the cartridge out and they send it down to cardiff which is where mel is
yeah.
and he chucks it into, bungs it into his machine and then gets the printout then which he then sends to wherever.
ah.
so what we, we need to go to him i think in the first instance and say we want to do x y and z, and if he, if he says fine you know.
but if he says i'm sorry, i haven't got the equipment we then have to go outside
yeah.
obviously but i think you need clearly in the first instance to use that 
and you're saying to also mention to me if he's got 
well i, it's just a thought.
i mean if we're gonna be speaking to him we may as well ask whether
yeah.
just to say that we, you know, that we'll, we, we're going, we're proposing to do some origin destination surveys interviewing, and we'll need the signing to go with it that gwyneth don't appear to have them and, and in consequence we're proposing to hire them elsewhere.
erm and erm you know, we know that last time it was done er the, the signs were not bilingual, the ones census point and so on 
yeah.
and that erm is he w er would, did he think that would be a problem.
yeah.
cos i think last time we hired them from staffordshire and i'd have thought if they're going to buy some they will be very happy to hire us them.
cos presumably, when you look at the layout most of the signs are keep left signs.
yeah.
or you get the you get ones that are sort of road narrows
yeah.
and you get the, the warning ones.
yeah.
and the warning ones have a little census plate on.
erm so presumably you perhaps need to do something about that.
but the keep left ones they're gonna have in stock aren't they?
yeah.
so the only ones you really need and, and the, and the road narrows and the warning ones, they're all gonna be in stock.
yeah.
so the only ones that probably need to get made are census stop if required etcetera.
so there's only three of those.
yeah slow census and whatever.
so presumably if, if staffordshire have them made and we get those three whizzed up to caernarvon you know, the rest can sort of fit into place.
cos if you put survey instead of census at the bottom, i mean i know that's not strictly speaking how it should be, but they must have signs for us to survey because they have their own, presumably they have their own surveyors go out and
yeah.
yeah like 
you know and 
you see yellow ones don't you?
on the motorway and stuff
yeah.
they have survey on.
but they very often, that triangular one with an exclamation mark, there'll be a little 
yeah 
plate on the bottom that says survey.
yeah.
well maybe it's not really right, but, but perhaps that i'd have thought it would be alright.
yeah.
census, it's probably the same in welsh as well you know, don't you know?
yeah, i see what you mean.
we might be able to get round it.
i'll see what this fella says.
well i mean i was saying to this bloke well can you think of anywhere where we might be able to, oh no no no can't think of anywhere.
well you could try clwyd or something but can't think everybody you know.
clwyd might well do some.
i wonder
oh it might be worth giving nige a ring.
he's at cheshire.
oh yeah.
who do we know at clwyd?
davydd .
who?
davydd .
never heard of him .
he's brian's brother is he?
no.
okay so let's just go 
he used to work for liverpool city i think, and he was called dave there.
er right, just going back to the actual er roadside interview, is that one on the the b road, or is it the a?
that's the one.
er i was only going to propose to use four staff on that.
have a look at the, i think that's what we've done last time.
yeah.
okay.
have a look at the erm we must have a count but yes, have you got that report?
of the 
or have you given it back to me?
well no just the oh, yes it might be on that but i the early report 
the reports on the erm surveys which were done 
did you give it back?
yes i did.
right.
okay.
okay so then 
well they give us an idea of what the flow was then anyway won't it?
yes.
and i think you're right.
and the other thing 
oh
oh we've put in a making the interview forms, just having the welsh translation on the top.
i was explaining to jim how we could do that and it looked pretty straightforward so or, or not.
it's 
have we got the interview forms?
that we used last time?
mm.
yeah but they're like four interviews on a sheet and really sort of 
yeah.
but i mean who 
what, how w , what are w , have we got our current ones, our standard ones?
yeah.
cos presumably it would be best to use those wouldn't it?
yeah.
i think you could, you could accommodate it if you just reduced that sli the, what the normal one slightly, and there's t there's room to put the er translation on the top.
i'll do you a mock up of that and see what you
yes, good idea.
what you think.
i think either that or have it on a separate sheet.
but i would have thought it's best to put it on there if we can.
how many are we gonna want?
three thousand?
perhaps it's worth having a separate print run for that isn't it?
yeah, might be.
it's not i think if they use this offset thing, the masters last about five hundred so you're not it's not, it's not a silly amount.
yeah.
would it take, oh wait a minute!
three thousand interviews
what 
say, would you think three thousand interviews?
i'm just trying to think what we were averaging.
but i mean that one of them's not gonna you're not gonna get as many on that b road.
will we will we want those?
oh i can't remember you know what we used for ormskirk 
it doesn't matter if we if we get too many cos you can always use 
well that's it.
can't you?
yeah.
mm.
if you see what i mean.
yeah.
well so you think actually send something through to reprographics for them to do in liverpool?
well you don't want to be doing it on the machine down here do you?
no.
and if you got three thousand interviews, say a thousand at, well y you probably wouldn't, you'd probably get 
probably two of those boxes would do wouldn't it?
you could get nearly four thousand interviews couldn't you, altogether?
yeah.
at two on a page is two thousand sheets plus however many you'd only get one on.
so i'd have thought three thousand wasn't out of the way really.
and like you say if there's some left they won't go to waste anyway.
no.
oh on the other hand i suppose we could say well we'll use, we'll get some and if we run out we'll use english ones.
if you do it that way, you know, by the time they get there they should know what the questions are shouldn't they?
yeah.
excuse me, by the time you run a 
cos we hold the original to that.
to the interview 
well we'll need some anyway.
yeah.
we've probably, i mean we, we hold the original on an a three so it might be worthwhile doing a copy of it.
doctoring it
oh i see yeah.
to insert the welsh because john will have to send the original off for 
oh right.
yes .
we'll have a look 
and then we can have the base copy of each then couldn't we?
good.
i'll, i'll dig it out after.
yeah, right.
right, is there anything else?
so, yeah there is.
erm things like whether i'm using my car and stuff i suppose i need to speak to mike about?
i haven't done anything about that.
right.
erm 
erm statutory undertakers?
bus companies
yes we'll need to write to all those and we'll need to write we need to write to the police
yeah.
on in two guises don't we?
partly because we're doing a survey but partly to warn partly because of the emergency services aspect.
yeah.
so we need to write to the police to er i suppose the thing to do is we write in a general way to the, the chief constable, north wales police 
yeah.
which is i think in colwyn bay
yeah it is.
and but when it comes to actually organising the police control of the survey sites, we, we speak to the erm traffic inspector at wherever it is.
i'm not sure 
right so who did you say in colwyn bay?
what what 
just write to the chief constable.
i think we need to write three letters.
one to the police, one to the ambulance, one to the fire brigade just saying we're proposing to do them.
obviously that'll have to be when we've fixed the sites
yeah.
and the dates are on.
yeah we'll do this 
but that's normal.
general letter to the police saying that we're intending to do these surveys, just putting them in the picture and put a note in that erm once, you know, dates and whatever, you know, we'll give you further details as and when we know 
well i wouldn't, i don't think i'd worry about writing to them until we've got the dates.
oh okay.
oh i suppose we've gotta, oh well what did we do last time?
i remember the problem was last time sending those little plans out, the ormskirk you know?
give them the drawing number so we sent a transmittal note, course we never got a transmittal note back.
it's best to avoid that.
yeah.
erm right well i think the thing to do is, on beyond that is to make sure we work through the checklist.
okay?
erm now layouts, site layouts.
yeah maps and things.
so are you leaving the ball in my court on that?
on what?
on the statutory undertakers.
cos i can probably get some information out of here.
i think i if you want er i mean you're quite happy to draft a letter?
yeah.
i mean that's a 
i mean again 
standard thing that goes to all of them 
we need to write them, warn yeah, and we ask them to let us know what they've got planned don't we?
yeah.
so you could send them a letter with a little diagram that 
yeah.
i wonder how good that is, yes i think that's alright isn't it?
then they wouldn't they'd understand what we, that meant wouldn't they?
yeah but that's got specific things on .
true.
yeah well all we did for ormskirk was, it was just an o s map and we just drew a bloody great circle round it
and said this is the study area.
that's probably the best thing isn't it?
yeah.
and blow up 
an o s and just well within our sites and everything 
but don't give it a drawing number.
no.
it's just attached to the letter.
yes.
now you get your, you've got your list of who you want to write to?
yeah.
if you check with erm dennis because they're doing all, you know, doing the contract documents, he could confirm all the, the current addresses.
okay.
that alright?
yeah.
you're sounding a bit weary .
no that's alright 
there's no rush about this, i mean er you know, you've got well
well there is up to a point because you know how bad they are at responding.
yes there is.
i mean er what i mean is it needs to be done this week sort of thing.
yes.
oh that's okay i'll get all them off .
i'll do a, i'll do a draft letter this afternoon, you can have a look at it, erm we'll knock a plan up and her get the addresses and then that's it's easy then innit?
yeah.
i wonder if we do want to put it in 
oh sshh 
you've finished your mi meeting already mike?
right, well let's, okay.
er, yes.
sorry about that.
no it's alright we're only trying to work somewhere, somewhere quiet.
i suddenly thought that on the advert that's gone in
yeah there's a chair here.
on the advert that's gone in i did wonder whether to put please respond by such and such a date?
don't worry about it.
you don't think it's necessary?
if they don't respond by the date, you know do it quickly
yeah.
they're not interested.
okay.
that's all we did for the statutory undertakers.
dead simple.
just drew them a whacking great circle round it and 
yeah, good.
okay?
so something similar 
excellent.
something like that yes.
yes.
erm
so i'll speak to dennis for er addresses.
is there a phone number in the ad or just an address?
a phone number as well yeah.
oh right.
i think most people ring.
you know cos it 
wastes so much time.
your name ?
yeah.
but we'll just have a word with anna-lee and if, i think you know, she'll say what's it concerning and if i'm not there well she can put them through to you.
okay.
erm so you say, are we saying that we're gonna leave the police till we've got some dates?
and the
well we know when we're gonna do it don't we?
do we?
well we know it's the last week in april or something 
yeah.
don't we?
well we wanna know whether we were gonna try and do them all in that week?
twenty seventh of april.
monday tuesday thursday.
i think the plan that goes to to the police thank you needs to show the i interview sites on it.
you remember we had, on the ormskirk one we did one that had a study area on it?
yeah.
but we also had one that showed the individual locations.
yeah.
and i think that was the one that went to the police.
right.
er and the fire brigade and, and so on.
yeah cos they'll want to know.
well that's it.
yeah.
and all you're doing is warning them that they will, the things will be there and we'll make sure that if a emergency vehicle comes along erm
but they will know your precise dates won't they?
well they'll want to know precise dates.
i can't remember that we did actually.
no i don't know whether we do give them, even the precise dates.
it isn't really much use then is it, just giving them a rough ?
well it's only a warning.
well we'll have a look back in, i'll have a look back in the file and see what we did last time.
erm do you wanna do that, have a look at what we'd said in ormskirk
yeah.
on that side of things?
yeah.
i think i wrote to them if i remember rightly.
well i didn't.
erm now we need to do something about layout plans.
so we need to get some if we're going to work on ordnance survey ones we'll need to sort something on that.
have to have a chat with anyway you're not in an immediate rush to do that are you?
no.
the, the yeah.
what have you told only you haven't told gwyllam anything have you?
cos you, what you've told him is did you talk about chapter eight?
no.
no.
i, i just said to him, when he said we've got these census point ahead i said well we've got certain restrictions, you know, we've certain rules and regulations we've gotta comply with i mean i didn't reel off any of this blah.
but i said oh, are you familiar with setting up roadside interviews and for this type of thing?
oh yes, we've got such and such a fella out there that does nothing but that out all day long.
and yet they didn't have any signs so i think he's talking through his hat.
but what he probably means is that they set up signs for
yeah.
you know, roadworks and stuff.
yeah.
yeah.
so i mean i would have thought they've gotta comply with the same 
yeah.
the same sort of things.
i think the thing is, actually, just thinking about it, there will be a welsh version of this if there is one if you see what i mean?
yeah.
if there isn't one then we, we er er it er oh mind you i suppose there's no hassle to them to put a welsh thingy, anyway i'll look at that.
right, now the other thing is that what jim's doing which is that programme, how is that coming along?
yeah.
what i did was i got i went down to the print room and i got a piece of a one paper and i mean if you want to use chris
chris over in chester office, see if, that one would, oh mind you there isn't a chair there is there?
mind you is jonathan away?
there's this chair here.
jonathan's not here.
is jonathan away?
yes, two day a day and a half or something, two days?
right.
so, you know, there's desks around anyway
mm
that you could use
okay.
and erm er that's what i used if you want to borrow that you can.
thanks.
and do it in pencil and just, and then we can rub it out
yes.
and change things and so on, yeah.
well it's easy to change isn't it?
because presumably peter will need to incorporate that in an overall programme.
when we look at the highway side.
so it's just the traffic side which i'm dealing with here?
yes.
cos that's all i'm dealing with.
okay and perhaps erm perhaps you'd also like to l would you like to look at this side of things as well?
incorporate that into it?
no, the, the layout plans, do, do some layout plans.
oh yeah sure.
marty's done them before you see haven't you?
yep.
so i'm, i'm just trying to look at the ones for and then we'll go from there.
okay, is that alright?
yeah.
now, have i given either of you task schedules for this 
no.
stuff?
so i need to do that don't i?
er in fact i never gave telephone call it's no good telling me to do something 
task schedules,ooh i'll have to get the form.
okay, so you want a task schedule for doing doing the traffic report?
mhm.
mm yeah?
yeah.
and also for doing the programme.
yeah?
and you want a task schedule for organizing this, it's a bit unspecific isn't it?
yeah.
okay.
erm how is that then?
er you happy to leave things as they are for the minute?
carry on on that basis?
yeah, the only other thing like when you were saying about site layouts, if there's any maps that we need, and that's including maps for coding, wall maps, you know, large scale.
well obviously we've got to progress into that.
we need to prepare some zone plans and gazetteers maybe.
yeah.
erm oh well i'll er the other thing i was thinking of is that er we could be looking er towards beginning, you know even now, to doing a trips network and things like that.
there's no real reason why you, say, shouldn't start to build up the data on that.
yeah.
erm y y you know you, you could do a diagram and presumably the person to speak to would be billy or maybe peter cos i think peter did the bulk of the work.
okay.
beverley did a lot of the actual sort of dogsbody work, you know, the actual doing of it.
erm so you need to build up a picture of what you've got erm but there's no real reason why we shouldn't be working on that now it seems to me.
er in principle.
yes beginning, you know, we, we know what we're trying to do obviously we don't necessarily know every, every node in the network erm cos obviously once you start doing that, or when we start doing tr the, the journey run things erm we're going to need to know what we're wanting.
so there'll be two sides of it c er
well there, there won't be any will there?
erm 
mm.
but anyway i mean it's all part of the picture.
what i'm getting at is there's no reason why we need, we should wait until after the surveys to start looking at trips.
which is what happened on ormskirk.
mind you it was partly because we didn't get a programme.
but there's no reason, and on as well.
alright?
right, so me and jim had a chat the other day just looking at the the roadside entries and the counts and i was sort of saying if we work on the basis that we want between ten and twelve people, twelve people maximum
mm.
erm i think we're be able to do all the counts with that number of people including the st david's roundabout and
mm.
but we do need to clarify exactly what you want on that.
whether you want samples doing cos that's gonna take more people, or whether you're just doing ins and outs and stuff like that.
well 
and on the other roundabout for that matter.
are you off?
yeah i've got a seminar in manchester .
oh right.
how did it go?
fine.
probably find that traffic percent 
we're just talking now this, this is, this is one we're discussing.
oh well just south of caernarvon on the first section erm between caernarvon and ?
yes.
yeah.
gwyneth haven't really started on doing any of that work yet.
work.
and they need to do traffic.
and also they need to confirm the traffic erm turning 099 junction at er i can never pronounce it, beginning with an l.
yeah .
and er maybe count, maybe do their traffic counts out of that as well.
so the guy that was in charge of those schemes with gwyneth
yeah.
was at the meeting or came into the meeting to explain about the schemes.
what's his name?
erm
peter will know.
peter's got his name down.
cos that was one of the things we talked about 
vernon somebody or other i think his name was.
vernon 
need to contact them.
yes, need to do that this week.
but they, this, these, well he's got a copy now of the report and he's gonna c comment back on what
do welsh office want any more 
bits 
copies of that?
so that's fine, good.
erm and they should comment this week about what extra bits they think they could perhaps cover.
so maybe a few more turning counts the census 
mm.
right.
and that wasn't where i well i haven't been 
particularly looking for work from that particular 
to know is they raised er the question about the er counts we're doing for the caernarvon link
yes.
which is part of this study.
yes.
they want us to divorce the staff time
yeah.
and charge it against the caernarvon job.
right.
the caernarvon link job?
yeah which is to our benefit cos we get 
mm.
what about the work for gwyneth?
if that's extra
what do we charge that to?
that is bypass.
they don't want us to charge it to extra to works?
we could have a two point six seven multiplier 
no.
er er er as far as they're concerned any extra work is just an enhancement of the rate to the bypass erm rate, point six two percent.
that was what pointed out.
he pointed out?
any 
said we need approval for extra work
yeah.
he said well it's just, it's time costs, it's just an extension of the 
right.
except for the caernarvon bit.
right.
are they wanting a budget figure from us?
we're gonna have to put
what was paul saying about the wedding then?
only said who he invited.
i said, i said have you invited aunty joan and them?
he said oh i've invited aunty joan but nobody else cos i didn't fancy any of the others.
and has he invited joan to the day do and that?
yeah.
but he hasn't invited any to the night .
i think i might have his conscience by saying that i don't mind.
well for what they see i can understand him asking joan and graham erm maybe they've gotta watch how much they're
i know but an extra four people's not gonna cost that much more is it?
shut up.
you little sod.
the cat?
yeah.
oh i'm shattered .
why i asked him is because he had a wedding invitation for rob and jen 
yeah.
well to be honest i can understand why he's not asking them.
you know they'll make up with friends you know, what family they're not asking won't they?
oh aye.
no it's not as if you're all close is it?
no.
and i mean we haven't seen them since ours hardly have we?
no 
watch this fool.
ram him off the road.
oh i had a really good day today.
i didn't go till about half ten ah no cos i had a few letters and stuff to write first and i thought right i'll just take me time and, cos i wanted to i didn't wanna go faster than you know than i should, i should have done sort of thing cos i wanted to time it properly.
erm it took me an hour and a quarter.
and it's exactly sixty miles into the middle of caernarvon.
so i 
and that's where the survey's gonna be, right in the middle is it?
well no but that's where i had to go.
see you can allow a few extra miles for getting 
oh.
to the others.
so you wanna allow yourself a an hour and half really don't you?
do you think, or not?
well i don't think so because that, i mean there won't be any traffic hardly 
no.
when i'm going so i'll just allow the same.
and then i should do it in an hour.
you know i'll be leaving at about half five.
no, not b about quarter past five i'll be leaving, five to quarter past.
that's allowing a a good hour and a quarter.
but it's not gonna take me longer at that time of the morning than it has done today at eleven o'clock or so is it?
coming home it took me a bit longer cos it was all that delay at the hill.
oh aye that's right i heard it on the radio.
yeah oh it's pathetic .
oh no the rest of it, it's not too bad, it's not a bad journey, it's quite pleasant really.
so i went straight to the county offices and saw the rooms you know where we're going to 
yeah.
be doing the coding.
dead smart.
i was really into that.
can you put the stuff on the walls?
erm i'm not gonna put them on the walls.
they've got you know like these big boards, free standing boards 
yeah.
they have.
like a pin board thing?
yeah.
gonna have some of them there's three i think and they're really long ones.
er so i'm gonna have them but she showed me the small room, what they call the small room, well that was huge well it will be perfect for what we want.
really plush, you know all the carpets 
mm.
and everything?
erm and then she said oh and this is the other one and it was like all er it was bigger again obviously, and all the tables in a square
like a conference type 
yeah but each seat ooh excuse me each seat had a microphone built into the desk.
oh aye?
but i thought that'd be more of a hindrance than a help
yeah.
for what we were doing so when i got back to the office i rung and i tempor well provisionally booked this, the smallest of the two which i think will be brill.
so 
so what did she say about the money when you tried her for less money?
or didn't you actually say?
well that one you have to ring the head office in bangor, i had to ring her when i got back.
they only er showed me the rooms, they do the bookings and i just said
and it's actually in the like the council offices?
yeah.
they have all like them chambers there as well you know?
but i just said that it was for the welsh office cos i thought if er they knew it was for a authority you know?
yeah.
i said do you, do you think there'd be any discount er with it being a block booking?
and she didn't say no full stop, she said oh she said i'm not sure she said, i'd have to enquire about that.
so i just thought she's gonna yeah if it was out of the question she could have said oh no that's it, there's a flat rate so i 
yeah.
think she's gonna ask 
thing is with them welshies they probably haven't tried to bloody they haven't got the sense.
no.
if somebody else was trying to book it, one of those welshy types, they haven't got the sense to ask 
no, i said well i said that i'd appreciate it cos it's worth a go and she said oh yes i agree with you there.
which field's min in?
not any of these.
so that was good.
ooh i can't stop yawning.
so then i thought oh i'll go and find er the offices again, church street.
and we'd gone a roundabout way the last time we were there and i thought oh i'll give it a go, anyway i walked straight down this road, have a look oh yes, turn up here anyway i, i sort of got me bearings and i thought oh yes it's just down here he's in the field just down there.
is he?
do you wanna go or not or go straight to your nan's?
go straight to nan's, call on the way back.
if it isn't too late.
couldn't see him.
erm so i went straight to this place and there was a fella downstairs, his secretary was erm out on her lunch.
anyway i said oh i said you're not expecting me, said who i was and where i was from.
i said i called in to see either michael or the secretary, mirelda her name is.
mm.
and er so he said alright.
i said i'm also gonna be che cheeky and see if i can use your toi he said oh yes he said, go and help yourself he said there's a kettle down there, make yourself a drink, make yourself at home.
so anyway i thought i won't have a drink cos if this secretary wasn't there i didn't know how long she'd be so er but i di i went upstairs to where we had the meeting with mike the other week.
and erm joe his partner was there so i had a really good chat to him.
what do you mean his partner like?
is it just like a little firm?
and this michael's one of the partners in the firm?
no there's just them in the office.
oh aye.
they've merged with us now.
erm so i had a chat to him.
he drew me a little plan of how to get to w h smiths and that.
what the hell do you wanna go to smiths for?
maps.
so i had a walk up the town and called in tesco's and got a bit of shopping.
got some teabags.
did you?
yeah.
is it much of a place, caernarvon?
not really.
they have a market there don't there?
on a saturday yeah.
so i went to smiths, got this map 
what and do a photocopy?
but i don't think i'll need it.
it's just a one to twenty five thousand, a pathfinder.
cos i picked up the chester to wrexham one instead of the snowdonia one.
caernarvon's on the snowdonia map.
ah.
an o s one to fifty thousand and that's what i thought i'd picked up this morning to take with me but when i looked it was chester and wrexham so it didn't do me much good.
so i thought oh well i'll buy this other one and 
claim it back off the firm?
yes.
three pound ninety something chicken butties and bag of crisps and that, it was nice.
cos i'd parked on the top of this multi-storey car park at the offices, is it called?
erm i parked on the top.
so it wasn't all dark and that
mm.
cos i wanted to be looking at me plans.
and i ate me butty there on top.
in the pouring bloody rain and howling wind i expect.
it was, yeah it was horrible .
so then i just had a drive round all the sites.
did you find them all alright?
yeah.
i know where i'm going now with er all of them.
you know and getting to them, i know how to get from one to the other without going, you know?
all round the houses.
i've got a good idea of where everywhere is.
so i was quite pleased.
mm.
when i got back ooh you know i told you about that job?
we've put a bid in for arrow park.
mm.
rob thinks we've got it.
oh god.
winning some bloody jobs aren't you.
what have they done, dropped their prices?
well rob's doing them isn't he?
oh they have had to drop their prices.
they've had to go for the we did them a few sort of quotes on the survey side of this arrow park and er we've gotta, you know, really stick to this tight budget because it's the only way you can get them no matter what people are telling you erm about the recession being over, people still want things for nothing.
so this survey might have to be done at the beginning of april.
but it's not a big one so 
well when's these in caernarvon, the end of april?
starting the twenty seventh of april.
it's the weekend after 's wedding?
yeah.
so i shall be enjoying myself at the wedding
mm.
ready for my hard slog.
eh?
you'll be knackered.
i know.
er yeah so we'll have this thing at arrow park to do.
he's hoping to do that.
we'll looking into doing we need to know how many cars gone in, how many cars go out 
into the ?
of the hospital grounds.
but there's residential sections as well.
and then see how long each vehicle stayed there.
there's two entra entrances
you'll have to er take the registration of every bloody car!
that's what we are doing.
jesus god!
it's probably because they're taking over the er accident and emergency department from clatterbrick it's shutting down and it's all going to arrow park.
well that's not why we're doing it.
well it is.
that's what's happening, it was on the radio the other day.
this is just well i mean it maybe connected with that but we're doing it because they want to increase the car parks .
so we're looking to do it with tape recorders on the busiest entrance and you know and just say car d five one four r g m blah blah blah.
get them all down and then the person on the quieter entrance can just write them down.
but you don't necessarily have to say the whole number.
you know you can just say d five one four.
well that's what you wanna, so much quicker wouldn't it, just say the escort d five one four.
yeah, you don't even have to say the the make.
and then erm they all get punched into the, rob's got a special computer programme thing, you punch them all in er and then it does a ma a matching thing.
and it come, at the end of the day it comes out with all the ones it's matched, the duration it's been there and er makes it a damned sight easier basically.
should be quite good.
then we've got in june we're supposed to be doing journey time surveys and traffic counts on the m sixty three.
i won't get off at this one, no?
no.
i'll get off at the 
erm now they're talking of doing roadside interviews in both directions on the motorway on the slip roads.
be a big job that will.
yeah.
so i hope it comes off.
loads of money , you'll be minted.
yeah.
it's about time we got something, don't, you know for months we scratched round looking like we're busy, now we're meeting ourselves backwards, coming backwards.
better that way though innit?
days go 
yep.
but i mean i'm already starting stopping later, unintentionally you know, just cos i wanna finish something.
here i turn now do i?
yeah.
well that this is the bloody supermarket.
well where was the turning?
i've never 
course you do.
i don't.
yes you do.
er yeah i've already got over thirty hours credit.
and you're not supposed to have more than thirty even though mike's got about a hundred and three.
mm.
how the hell he's wangled it, honest to god!
well he must be fiddling it cos he, he's never bloody worked it.
no.
so erm and i, i can't just take a flexi-day because i'm already, i've already got leave to use.
so i'm gonna see how i get on an if i keep doing it i'm just gonna get it as overtime.
what are you having?
fish and chips?
are you coming in?
no, i don't wanna see jean.
oh she's there.
there she is.
she's doing the n 
are we late?
yep.
the chips .
yeah.
cooeee 
cooeee 
she's probably asleep.
probably.
sorry!
couldn't hear you.
ooh 
how are you?
i couldn't hear you shout.
i know, i couldn't long time getting 
well i was allowing you time with your leg but we thought you've got the telly on loud.
oh aye i have really, yes 
have you?
we've been in chinky we've brought our tea.
we've brought our tea.
we've been to the chippy, we haven't had any tea yet.
haven't you?
so can we eat them here please ?
yeah.
right you take them in there the table.
yeah we can do, saves stinking out in here.
you'd better put something on it.
yeah.
oh there's nothing to 
i'll not ask you in there with the table because there wasn't enough room.
the what?
there's a little table there, a little folding table there.
yeah?
shall we take that?
put it here?
yeah.
?
oh aye.
no i'm alright there.
go on go and sit on 
no i'm grand.
no you wanna rest your leg.
ooh don't matter about resting me r about resting me leg.
i r used to .
that's right.
we've just been to see jean there at the chippy.
oh have you been ?
yeah.
yeah.
is that alright there?
yeah.
now then.
where's mine?
let's get you organized.
looks like a teddy bears' picnic 
want plates?
no we'll have them out of the paper, we'll save on washing up, thank you.
go cut you some bread?
i'm alright, i d i want a butty thank you.
michael how, how many rounds do you want?
oh just one ta.
it's er who erm wholemeal.
aye, just one thanks.
only one?
yep...
so they'd better be nice seeing as we've been all the way 
just get me the marge out of there 
to .
yeah, there it is, vitalite.
vitalite.
oh aye.
super.
so how's your leg?
ooh 
any easier?
ooh it comes and goes martine, it's nearly driving me daft to be honest.
oh is it?
is it gone a bit easier?
has it gone a bit easier for you?
what?
what do you want?
what do you want?
er just do you want one or two?
one.
please.
two.
just just one.
one.
yeah.
i don't want one thank you.
you know where the salt and vinegar is don't you?
oh aye.
it's already on them thanks.
there's plenty on them, they're alright.
oh there in er in the cupboard there.
is your nan okay?
do you want a few chips on a plate nan?
no thanks i've only 
are you sure?
i've only just got just had a big dinner love.
have you?
what have you had?
i had a la lamb chop cabbage
ooh.
roast potatoes rhubarb, stewed rhubarb, ron's stewed rhubarb.
lovely.
and cream.
nothing like looking after yourself.
oh it was very nice and it's his first rhubarb.
mm.
me mum 
give your mum a cou just a couple of sticks.
yeah she was only saying ours has started to come through
yeah.
up at .
oh they are nice 
mm.
teddy bears' picnic this nan.
what love?
teddy bears' picnic.
ooh.
don't bother with a plate for that.
nan.
just a minute love.
what did you say?
i, he could have had that straight on the paper.
alright?
thank you.
what did you say?
i said there was no need to have got him a plate.
spoiling him, he doesn't have a plate at home for his bread and butter.
well y your dad likes a lot of a out of the paper, i dunno.
it ta tastes nicer out of a paper.
oh they do.
if i, if i'm out yes, i li i like them in a pa in a, in a paper, you know, but er i've got no cake to offer you, i can't some biscuits.
no, i'll be alright after this.
no ta.
alright with this thanks.
no?
we haven't had chips for ages have we?
haven't you?
no.
no.
oh well if you haven't had chi or haven't done for a long time you enjoy them.
i er you do.
nan you'll love why don't you go back and watch your programme and have a sit down and we won't be two ticks eating these.
your mum had a what did she have?
oh she'd been up to pearks
mm?
she bought a steak and kidney pie now then, no she didn't have chips steak and kidney pie and some er couple of iced buns, she bought me a, an ordinary pie.
oh yeah?
so i had that at dinner time.
mm.
oh me mum's been here today?
and she called she did ask the girl for er two er cream doughnuts
yeah?
and she, she's a new girl, your mum said
hmm
and she gave her iced buns.
oh!
there was all sort of icing on and cream as well.
but i must admit they were very nice.
they were nice.
little devils.
oh.
me mum's been here today has she?
yeah, she come about half past twelve?
oh she said yesterday she might call.
half past twelve.
mm.
and she went from here about er well she said she was going at quarter past two.
i said it is quarter past two if you i'm not pushing you off but you've got to be somewhere on time.
yeah.
have a we had a bit of a chat
good.
and er she went sort of thing.
mhm.
so i always take my dinner in there.
well aye, might as well have a bit of comfort.
and and then i come back in here, i always get my sweet and take that back again.
i watch blockbusters
oh yes, we had ab er well while you were in the shower.
and then i always stop and watch the news.
so i come er come in here after and er washed up
mhm.
and i'd just peeled an orange to be honest
i just fancied an orange, i thought oh 
here you are 
and i'd just that very minute sat down.
why don't you go and sit down again and we'll come in as soon as we've finished these.
oh aye.
so you can rest your leg.
are you sure you don't want any biscuits only i haven't any ?
no we're alright thanks.
thanks.
i'm fine.
i'll be too full up 
not i am without cake but irene brought me some small ones yesterday
mhm.
and i've only just finished our, our christmas er bun loaf sort of thing, you know 
have you?
anyhow 
no this is fine.
right, i'll go and finish my orange.
okay, we won't be a minute.
ooh you're gonna have a cup of tea aren't you?
well are you having one?
are you having one anyway nan?
yes, there's the water in the kettle and everything in.
well o i'll, if you put it to boil 
okay.
they're nicer than our chips.
do you want tea bags or loose tea?
anything.
whatever's easiest.
do you want tea martine or lemonade or ?
erm i'll have tea please, yeah.
we usually have a cuppa after don't we?
mhm.
just saying nan
pardon?
i'm just saying these chips are nicer than the bottley chips.
are they?
oh aye, we'll be coming here again.
your dad always likes them from here.
yeah.
oh they're your mum and dad now aren't they?
yeah.
got nowhere local for chips.
oh lovely, thank you.
smashing.
you get a good one thirty, that's not bad is it that?
now then i'm going to leave you to it.
okay, we'll be through in a minute.
i'll just go and finish my orange.
you don't mind?
no.
we'll be through in a bit.
i think we pay more than that ?
probably.
i think fish is over a pound, yeah.
fish is normally about one twenty odd, oh aye.
so with the chips as well this is about one sixty.
the chips are fifty.
mm.
oh, think he's charged .
or does three sixty sound more like it?
erm three sixty that would be one eighty.
mm.
yeah maybe it was three sixty.
get pots of tea ?
is your nan having any?
she must be having one, put them straight in the cups.
they're one cup things .
she must have made one.
how ?
didn't she?
yep.
ooh come on.
struggling a bit now.
do you want any more chips?
aye.
yeah?
yeah.
seriously?
mm.
do you want more ?
no.
mm.
oh i really enjoyed them 
it was a good idea of mine i thought.
have to take the door off the hinges to get your head out if it gets any bigger.
you'll have to check them teas, one's got a little bit less sugar than the other.
well which one?
i don't know.
well you made them .
all mixed up now.
what are you like?
oh pardon me.
let's get past you with this chair.
it's lovely not having any washing up.
i'll wash me fork.
nice cutlery that isn't it?
mm.
it's old.
right.
that wasn't, there's nothing wrong with that.
god you've gone mad with the sugar in yours.
do you want it topped up?
no.
er ooh bit sweet innit?square spoon.
you can't drink it with what?
with a square spoon.
of er sugars
oh.
how do i do this without trapping me fingers?
ooh, god there's some weight in there.
put it all back as we found it eh?
best had.
could you take my coat through please.
yes.
it's on the chair.
go on.
oh?
oh erm who is he?
he was in that erm what was it called?
alan bleasdale, you know that fella that did boys from the black stuff
oh aye?
erm he was in one of his plays.
brookside.
oh is it him?
i thought it was the fella that had the nervous twitch.
is it?
oh aye of course it is yeah.
what was it called?
erm ooh i can't remember what it's called.
i don't know any 
he's been in a few things.
oh is this the new 
robert lindsey his name isn't it?
i mean it's crazy.
erm i think i don't know that it's so much class, i think it's just this image of girls do this and or women do that and men do the other.
well and also i'd like to throw in my, my views of these people who advise young children on their careers.
i think that basically it's a bunch of hocus pocus. erm barbara bryant.
yes, can i bring this argument a bit closer to home and talk about the sexual division of labour within the family, which i think is one of the underlying causes of discrimination against women, and that's really just a fancy term for the fact that when we talk about child care women do most of the work and men do very little, and really i don't think we can look at the position of women without looking at how, in fact, child care and caring is organized within the family.
and study after study comes up, even in this brave new world, about the fact that only eight per cent or so of the child care is actually done by men, and this goes right across the classes.
and in fact, if we look at even more, i mean where i work is a family centre in berinsfield erm and i interviewed erm some of the carers of young children, and most of the women i interviewed had, in fact, been subjected to marital violence by their male partners and in many ways this had been triggered off by arguments over who should take care of the children and over the woman not being in her place, so although it's important to maybe look at the macro level, i really think we have to look at how men and women behave towards one another, particularly where child care is concerned.
well you say that women take care of the children ninety two per cent of the time.
what role do women play in keeping themselves down, tied down to the family?
maybe the men only operate as child carers for eight per cent of the time because of what women have done.
maybe they're allowing men to put this burden on them and accepting it too readily.
do you think there's something of that in it?
no, i think you're into victim blaming.
.
let's look at the position of women once they actually get into the child care role and certainly the position of poor women erm the man is then the wage earner, the women then is relatively powerless.
the man has more economic power, more physical power, a higher status.
the only influence really the woman might have is in the love and affection level of operating, and it's a very unfair power battle and that is, in fact, what it turns into.
at least in what other poorer women were telling me, when it came to after work and weekends the men were quite the women were prepared to look after the children and felt it was their role to look after the children while the man was at work; when the man came back he continued to feel that the woman should look after the children erm for the rest of the time, and the idea of a shared child care arrangement did not operate in at least a number of the families that i talked to and had been one of the causes of the breakdown of the marriage and one of the precipitating factors in the man physically abusing the woman.
but why, why do the women accept that role of having no power?
do you think that that's just the way things are and they can't change it and society gives me more economic power and he has more natural strength, so this is an on-going battle that won't change very much?
i mean how do 
well 
how do things change?
what will be different in ten years time?
well let's look at what's different now than it was before.
i mean if we look at erm the large number of single parent families, mainly who are headed by women, the position of social security for these women has deteriorated in the last few years erm both in terms of the real value of the money received; child benefit has been frozen for the last three or four years; regulations such as you used to be able to offset your child care expenses when you were claiming income support have been changed, women can no longer can now only earn erm fifteen pounds a week of they're a single parent and they cannot offset their child care costs.
previously they could offset those costs.
it keeps women in a subordinate position and men can then even more exploit the superior economic and force and status that their given within society.
it makes it very difficult for women to take that first step on the ladder of actually becoming economically active, because they're caught in an impossible position between the needs of their children and their own personal needs, and until we actually look at the important and validate and give financial support to the caring role that women play, both in terms of looking after the children and looking after elderly relatives, this community care that is being talked about — community care is car on the backs of women, and it's unpaid and undervalued.
well how will things change?
well things have changed.
things have changed for the wore in my view.
that's what you've indicated, so how do people claw back the bad position that they were in before?
well, as is with everything when you're talking about changing things, women really have to get themselves organized , nobody's going to give it to them.
ah, yes, erm you're getting very close to victim blaming here.
you're suggesting that they've been disorganized?
no, i'm i was suggesting that the odds are against them and that men have used a type of emotional blackmail against women, which has always been very successful, where they're actually forced, because there are no things like cheap or free workplace nurseries, they are forced to be the primary carers.
women are faced with an impossible situation, when if the man refuses to do the child care at the weekend and walks out, what do they do?
do they also leave their children?
women are faced with making a choice between the needs of their children and their own needs, and that is one of the things which, because they've put the needs of their children, the needs of their dependents, ahead of their own needs, they themselves and the needs of women have not got as far as they could.
the state has a responsibility, in my view, to support children, to support work place nurses, to support the caring role which is done by women, and that is where the responsibility lies, as well as with individual men.
but a woman, who, when her own needs aren't met, and when she's slowly disintegrating, is not going to be able to give very much to the children, or give as much as she could, so it makes sense, if she's really concerned about those children, that she will put, quite often, her own needs above them in order to get her act together, so that she's in control and feels good about what she's doing so she'll be able to give more.
and if she were to approach her husband on that basis, that's a lever of power, isn't it?
the result of an unequal balance of power is where i went back to, is the precipitating factor in marital violence which is, you know, some surveys put as high as one in four families, is in fact when the woman becomes uppity.
define uppity.
uppity is when she no longer agrees with the man's definition of her appropriate role within the family.
but who you see at the very beginning they must have established what the roles were.
no, society establishes the rules.
the families are within that structure, where it is accepted that it is the man who goes out to work.
whether in fact there are disadvantages for some men, whether in fact it's very unusual for women to be the primary bread winner, when the man becomes the primary bread winner then the man holds the economic power.
child benefit is the only benefit which is in fact available to women, even then the government tried a few years ago to change that and to make it paid to the man.
there is no allowance to women for caring for children.
there is no equivalent to the invalid care allowance which is given to the person who cares for an elderly person.
it's a pretty bleak picture that you're painting right now.
theresa smith, how will we change it?
well i'd like to go back to the sorts of things that barbara bryant has been talking about.
if you talk to women in the sort of project where she's working, i think you do get a very strong picture of people who have very little confidence in themselves and certainly think that education is not for them, and if you then look at projects like second chance for women, there's a range of access projects, particularly for for people who want to get back into education when they think that they've had precious little chance to get anything out of education when they were at school themselves.
the sorts of experiences that you then get people talking about is really well i've learnt to stand up for myself for the first time, erm i now know what i want to do, i know who i am, erm projects where i've been involved, where you get women saying things like well two years ago i would never have dreamt of going and talking to the council about my house, or my children, or that i can't get a job because i can't get child care, and i wouldn't have dreamt of doing that and people who now say well now i can do that, i know that i can go and stand up for myself and stand up for what i think is right, just as well as my husband can.
it's that sort of change that i think is extremely significant, and i think it happens for women very much at that stage, when they have been through those sorts of experiences themselves, so one way in which i think that we can change things is — and help people to change things for themselves — is very much to support and develop those kinds of second change erm access, returning to education, returning to work, type projects as very much part of mainstream education and employment, and i would like to see a much greater range of those sorts of projects available for people and erm a lot more government resources into supporting that kind of provision.
all right, but you're sitting there on the nursery provision for under five's working party, you chaired that committee meeting yesterday.
no, i didn't, i'm only one of the spokespeople.
sorry, information was wrong there, but nevertheless you're near the top of the tree in trying to help get more nursery places in the county and you know that you're being you may have the best intentions, but you don't have the facilities to do very much about it.
things aren't going to happen from the government so much.
maybe people have to look at alternatives and non-governmental ways to change things.
any suggestions there?
yes, i think that well non-government ways, i certainly thing that we should be continuing and i think ordinary people should be continuing, as indeed they are.
if you talk to people in the street the majority of people who have young children are certainly saying we need day care, we need opportunities for ourselves erm and are quite prepared, some of them at any rate, to go and say that to their local councillors and to write to their m ps.
and that's perfectly clear.
if you're talking about non-government ways to do it, then i think that in any authority there are lot of voluntary organizations struggling to make provision of this kind.
it's increasingly difficult for the voluntary sector to make provision of this kind, to offer those opportunities without proper partnership with the state, so i don't actually accept if you're posing an alternative and saying that it's either or, i don't think that's correct.
i think that there must be a partnership of that kind in order to offer the opportunities that people, women particularly with children, are saying they need.
yes, ann mobbs.
one of the things we are doing during international women's celebrations is we're putting on a jobs and training opportunities fair, in templar square in the middle of cowley centre erm on the fifteenth of march between ten and four, so any women who want to know how they can get back to work, or what training opportunities there are available, are welcome to come.
and also one of the things we have done is we've booked this erm just the job exhibition, which we brought down from liverpool, and it's got fifty life-size images of black and asian women, with erm a little bit on their experiences at work, how they managed to find jobs, how they got started in their careers, and we felt that would be erm an inspiration to women coming into cowley centre.
we're going to put the whole exhibition for the day there, so they can see the kinds of ways that women have got jobs and the kinds of training that they've had to get to get them.
well, i'm joined on the line by audrey.
hello audrey, calling from abingdon are you?
yes.
it was just a quickie, i just wanted to read this little point that i actually think brings lots of what you've been discussing about together, and it's a light hearted, but it does have some relevance if i can just say it.
because women's work is never done, and underpaid, or unpaid, or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get the sack, and what we look like is more important than what we do, and if we get raped it's our fault, and if we get bashed we must have provoked it, if we raise our voices we're nagging bitches, and if we enjoy sex we're nymphs and if we don't we're frigid, and if we love women it's because we can't get a real man, and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and if we expect the community to care for our children we're selfish, and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and unfeminine, and if we don't we're typical weak females, and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man, and if we don't we're unnatural, and because we can't get adequate safe contraceptives, but men can walk on the moon, and we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion, and for lots and lots of other reasons we're all part of the women's liberation movement.
audrey, thanks very much.
sorry, but all together.
quite wonderful.
thank you.
we've talked about the women's movement so far.
let's talk about how men have changed.
well it's interesting, actually, because i've heard that before erm the piece that audrey read out, and in fact erm someone in the city council, a women in the city council, put it on the front of her door and there was an outcry by many of the men who worked in the city council.
they were very angry about it.
oh, we're getting angry men now?
well let's look at how men have changed.
brenda thornton, do you think that men have changed very much as a result of the more forthright stance that women have been taking recently?
yes, i do.
i think erm many men have changed their attitudes erm towards women, particularly since erm men and women were educated together in colleges in their further education, because they've shared their life together before marrying, before having children, and i think young men have become much more erm domesticated, if you like, i think that's the only way to say it.
and i think that they are more willing to listen to women and to share women's duties.
i'm not saying that the world is perfect.
it's far from perfect.
i've already said that women in work, that's where they're losing out.
i think they're losing out more in the workplace than they are in the home, and i'm only generalizing.
i know that there are many women who have a very rough time at home, but you're asking me if i think men have changed, and i think in that way, domestically, i think they have, but i don't think their attitude has changed in the workplace.
i think that's more or less still the same.
barbara bryant, you were shaking your head there.
yes, i'm afraid so.
i was quite interested in erm a study done by a woman, mary bolton, erm the actual work that was done and the sexual division of labour within the home, and in fact she looked at some of the previous studies that had been done and came up with a result that actually erm when men did some it was regarded as a lot, of housework, erm and that when you actually went back to count the number of hours and the number of minutes, you discover that men were doing very, very little.
but if they did anything then that was really regarded as marvellous.
mhm.
yes, i'm not saying that it's perfect and they do their whack, i didn't say that.
i did say that their attitude has changed from a generation ago and i think they are doing more at home than men did a generation ago.
yes, i think they tend to say they're doing it for you.
i mean they're not doing their own housework or clearing up their own rubbish , they're doing it for you.
but i mean i must admit on the side of some men, it's not actually an individual thing that i totally blame it on, although men, you know, have their responsibilities.
erm i think we do live in a patriarchal society where, even if, for example , some of the single carers that i interviewed — three were men out of eight or nine — and they had an equally hard deal, because the rules are stacked against people caring for dependents, whether the people who care are men or are women.
and that's why i say it's not only the individual men who are at fault, it's also the rules of the game whereby we look after dependent erm people within our society.
well, theresa smith, how do you think men have changed as a result of, of the more upbeat position that women have taken?
i think it's very patchy, but i think that there is some evidence that, certainly younger men, younger people and younger men are much more willing to erm accept that there is division of labour within the home and that women equally should be going out to work as men.
that's generally the message from some of the national surveys.
so maybe things are very slow erm but i think there is hope that they are changing.
yes, but how would you want men to change.
would you want them to be able to express their emotions more intensely and precisely, able to show how they feel?
would you like them to be more capable of looking after children.
what is it that you're looking for in terms of change for men?
that's a i think there's a different different aspects.
the way people express emotion is not simply a gender, it's not simply about how men and women behave, it's have how erm people behave in different parts of this country, or between england, say, and france.
oh, so you don't think there's any distinction 
no, i didn't say that.
in emotional expression between men and women.
no, no, i didn't say that.
what i did say is that there are differences in emotional expression between people in different countries, just as much as 
yes.
there are between between genders.
i would certainly i would certainly hope that men would become much less erm nervous and ashamed about expressing emotion erm and i would certainly hope that erm men learn as much as women do about erm how to look after children and how to bring them up, and i think there's some evidence that that actually is happening.
so if you are asking me what i would like to happen, i would certainly like that to be the case.
i think how you do it is very is a very different matter, particularly when you still have very many schools, for example, who erm take the registers — going back to basic things.
look at schools in this city.
there are still schools which take registers separately, the boys and the girls separately, or who have pink library book cards for girls and blue library book cards for boys.
this sort of thing.
now that's that's unthinking, but if that is happening in our education system, then i think there are real questions about how we change.
so i think it'll be slow.
mhm.
ann mobbs, what is it that you would like to see in terms of change for men?
well i think a lot of women are looking for an equal partnership really erm where the rules are laid down and they know where they stand, you know.
the rules laid down by whom?
well i think by men and women.
i think i think it's quite important that there is an equal partnership.
i mean i have to say for myself, i mean i was married.
erm enjoy living on my own, and i wouldn't really want to enter into another what i felt was a very oppressive relationship really erm because erm i don't think there are very many men who do think in terms of equality within erm within erm partnerships and within relationships within marriages.
i brenda thornton, do you think it's that bleak?
yes, i think i think it is.
i think it is really because i think what we've got to do, if we are going to have any sort of partnership or equality, i think men have got to become more like women.
i think they've got to become less competitive, less arrogant and less dominant, seeing that as the macho role, and i think they've got to become erm much more erm feminine and approve the feminine characteristics, so that there isn't so much difference between the two genders, and particularly in marriage and in the home.
but something i would like to say, which no-one has touched on at all; we've all been talking about the laws that affect women and equal opportunities, and no-one has mentioned anything about the horrendous hours that are worked in parliament making it not impossible, but extremely difficult for women to become politicians working in parliament to be the people who make the laws, to be the people who can actually affect women's roles in society erm everyone seems to accept the fact that our own parliament, totally dominated by men, and the sort of hours that only men can work, making it extremely difficult for women.
why don't we change that?
i mean why isn't there a tremendous outcry, saying this must change, we can still have democracy, but let's have reasonable, sensible, working hours in parliament so that we can get more women into parliament.
this is the sort of thing we've got to do, and that's a very difficult thing to try and change.
if you talk to any male politicians they think you're crazy.
why are you suggesting that?
it doesn't work?
and anyway this works perfectly well.
that's the sort of attitude that we've got to change in men.
if i were a woman, and i experienced the problems that you're talking about now, i'd be mad as hell.
well, that's how you've got to change .
why aren't women more angry?
because it's a feminine trait that women are, on the whole, far erm less easily aroused into combat.
erm and 
well barbara's shaking her head again .
she disagrees with everything you've said on this programme.
yes, i mean, i feel very strongly in terms of women's rights, but i think there are obviously a lot of differences between women and you can't generalize women, the same as you can't generalize individual personalities traits on for men.
i mean gender is one issue, but it's not the only one, and one of the ones that it seems to me that we've missed out on erm to date, when we're talking about international women's day, is race.
i mean we've talked only about about women; we've maybe touched on class, and we've not even mentioned the position of black women and the extra discrimination that they face in our society, and in other societies.
erm i 
well how would you characterize that discrimination as extra?
what's the extra dimension?
well the evidence is that they will erm much more likely to be in poverty, much more likely to suffer ill-health, their children are much more likely to be erm to have childhood diseases.
there is an increasing discrimination on my view because of the racism that exists as well as the sexism that exists within our society, and when you say why don't women do more, the odds against women, particularly black or working class women, are very heavy.
erm we have to continually fight, but to say we have to fight as well for our children and that is, in many ways, you know, the odds start off being stacked against us in my view erm and it is a continual battle.
women do need to become much more political, because the rules are defined by men and politics, as in fact has just been pointed out, are defined by men, in subtle ways as well a structural ways, and one of the subtle or not so subtle ways is in fact to insist that parliaments starts that ten o'clock in the morning 
yes, that's right.
and who looks after the children?
ten o'clock in the evening, sorry.
that would make a tremendous difference to the opportunities for women to go into parliament, and the kind of women you're talking about.
it would make it not just a dream, it would make it something that actually was possible to achieve.
at the moment if you talk to women, the women you've been talking about, about going into parliament, i mean it's a laugh, isn't it?
and that's what we've got to change, because they're the sort of women we need coming into parliament.
they're the sort of women who are needed to make the real changes.
ann mobbs, why aren't women much more angry than they appear to be?
or maybe i'm misreading them; maybe they are; maybe they're about to boil over.
i think a lot of women are very angry about erm the way they're treated by society really erm but it's interesting, isn't it, that the kind of erm jobs that erm women have?
i mean with this exhibition that we've booked ‘just the job’, which is black women erm and the kind of jobs that they've got, a large percentage are carers and erm and it is the thing that erm women feel that they can do and it erm in a way that it comes out of their role in the home, the caring role, and erm and it's a role that they get sort of erm trapped into and it doesn't pay very much money, as brenda was saying earlier.
mhm.
and one of the reasons why the black women in liverpool put this exhibition together erm and they tried to pick out different kinds of jobs that women had to show that black women could do those jobs, and they were saying look, there's lots of stereotypes erm about the kinds of jobs that black and asian women can do that fit in with their personalities, and you know the world is wide open and you are able to do this and you don't have to be erm a singer or a model or erm or erm erm a runner, you know, the whole stereotypes in terms of what black people are good at and they're saying let's break away from this, let's show the kinds of things that we can do and we can do anything that we set our minds to and erm the exhibition is very positive, actually.
it's very nice.
well, let's talk about a positive erm approach to this, maybe next year at this time.
what will be different?
theresa smith.
what will be different this time next year?
well erm if i'm crystal ball gazing, i would hope that all the women in this country, whatever their colour and whatever their class, would have access to first-class provision for their young children, so that if they wished to work they could actually work in jobs that paid them enough and gave them job satisfaction.
currently that's true for very few women.
i would hope that's a hope i would hope that enough women who wanted to could actually be in parliament if that's what they wanted, could be runners, could be models.
i would hope that this government would actually be recognising those sorts of aspirations.
your question about why aren't women angry — maybe people don't express anger until they can see that there is some point in being angry and that being angry actually helps you to change things.
maybe that's what i would say by this time next year.
maybe we ought to hope that more people will be angry in ways that actually mean that we can change things.
do you believe that women feel more empowered or less empowered now than they did last year?
i think that's a very difficult question.
erm the women that i talk to in groups up and down this county, i think some are angrier than they were, some are feel more empowered erm if they have if they've had these sorts of experiences that i was talking about earlier.
talking in leicester this week and last week to groups of black women, some black women are saying i have never thought before about being able to talk about what i am and making up my own mind.
i think when i meet — and maybe would count them not in hundreds, but in tens — when i meet women who make those sorts of comments and say this time last year i would not have said that, then those sorts of things encourage me very much.
ann mobbs, which way do you think the pendulum's swinging.
next year, what do you think will have changed; not what you hope will have changed, but what do you see as practical?
i don't think there's going to be any dramatic changes at all really.
i don't think life is like that.
i mean unless we had erm a change of government, say, and we had a women's ministry where someone was putting a lot of thought into the role of women in our society, and what one could do to improve the position for women, but we haven't got a government that's thinking in those kinds of ways.
mhm.
and brenda thornton.
erm i, i agree with ann, not about the government, but i agree that i don't think anything very obvious will have changed in a year erm but i don't think it depends on the government.
just four years ago i was working in china and i celebrated international women's day in china.
in china they have written into the constitution the equality of women in opportunity and everything else.
so, very exciting, erm and there celebrating there will be the women representing all sorts of different bodies; there were only two men there — why were there only two men?
because the two men were the chairmen and all the women had all the lower positions .
now, no, erm if there isn't a ministry for women, and if there isn't a government change i don't think that's a bad thing.
and barbara bryan, next year what will be on the cards?
i think much the same as is on the cards this year, that women are angry, in my view, erm women are proud of what they're doing.
some women, and hopefully more women, will turn that into political action — whether that's demanding a playgroup for or whether it's demanding that their political leaders were mainly male, pay more attention to women.
they have to keep fighting.
well, many thanks indeed for fighting for the last hour on this programme.
thanks to ann mobbs and to theresa smith, to brenda thornton and to barbara bryan.
that's it from me, bill heine.
thanks for joining us.
goodbye.
kelly.
you are once again doing it completely and utterly wrong.
at the wrong place again.
kelly you have been using
kelly, you've done it again.
can you walk the right way, no, now do it right kelly.
let's see you actually do something for a change..
how do you do this one down here?
you should have.
what else have you been doing wrong kelly?
. you've been using a brush instead of a spatula for spreading glue.
the spatula .
right.
now i hope that only kelly has been doing things as desperately wrong as kelly has been doing them.
looking around at all the there are a whole lot of people who have left the same even border all the way round instead of having an even border top and sides and leaving a bigger border at the bottom.
which you'll remember you were told to do so that there's a space for your name.
sarah stand up and come over here.
sam, will you stop doing that please my love and come across here so that you two don't .
i'm using a white colour pencil here in order to draw a line from to the work that is being mounted on here.
and you might say that the word has not been mounted on there.
no it hasn't because we .
can you see what i'm doing without me having to ?
or are you baffled by what you see?
?
mm?
no.
it's a demonstration and the, the line itself is like framed within a frame.
and i should imagine that the light paper's the backing paper and that i've already glued my work on the paper and my my picture is already glued just there.
can i have my sellotape back?
and i'm now drawing
sorry.
a white line about half a centimetre from the edge of the work being put on.
right this is a decorative line round the sides of .
does that make sense?
just a white line.
now you can make that look even smarter by making a second white line on the outside.
and then moving the erm ruler slightly away from the border for the second line over the top of it which makes it thicker.
so you've got a thin white line on the inside and a thicker white line on the outside.
that's point one.
point two is this, that i made the bottom border there er about be exactly five centimetres.
and i'm going to put a guide line which is one erm er half a centimetre from the side there .
yes christine, can i help you?
i've put two very faint white lines there in white.
you could use ordinary pencil, are you alright bruce?
have you lost something?
aye i was just 
you then write your name in block capitals.
what's your name?
jane?
j a y n
?
yeah.
so imagine you were writing jayne here j now it's a very long name, jayne and you have to put the title on there too, so i couldn't put it all in capital letters on this occasion could i?
probably that was a little bit on the, the large side anyway so i would use lower case as well on this one, a bit like, a bit like junior school writing.
do you know what i mean?
then it'll fit on very easily.
you have to use your common sense.
but you can see how a white pencil on that paper, that's going to look quite smart.
without, without the picture.
so that's the next stage.
go.
can i start by asking your name?
well my name is er mr laurence er o of the treasurer of the in edinburgh area.
and erm what was your date of birth?
my date of birth was the thirty first of the, of the seventh, o nine.
which makes me now approximately seventy six years of age.
what can you remember from when you were young about sort of housing conditions and
what i remember of the housing conditions when i was then residing in motherwell, a mining er community.
and known that particular time as the steel town of scotland.
was erm the whole town taken up with these sort of two occupations?
yes, it was all mining and steelworks.
was all .
in fact the ravenscraig, present ravenscraig was built up on the first place from a steelworks known then as corral steelworks.
mhm.
and d l steelworks and lanarkshire steelworks, these er steelworks, all amalgamated which is now known as the ravenscraig steelworks.
mhm.
what erm what kind of education did you go to when you ?
well i, my education was in a small er the local school, school in motherwell.
mm.
and they were only a s s a sort of infants and secondary school er there, and you .
there was no, all these highfalutin er certificates to gain en all you had to, had to gain to be fit for employment then was a qualifying certificate, that was the only certificate issued in those days.
a qualifying certificate.
er how old were you when you left the school?
i was er four i left the school at fourteen years of age and i was down the pit the following day.
the following day?
mm.
what do you remember about working in the pit?
well the working in the pit and the first and the first time i went down the pit er the pit was er john watson's number four colliery in motherwell.
and er i went with my dad and got into the cage which takes you down to the pit bottom and er er er immediately the cage left the surface it just dropped like a stone and i myself was frightened that the bottom of the cage collapsed completely.
because my stomach come up and met my heart
and everything went .
when i reached the pit bottom, there was approximately three feet of water at the pit bottom and i had my first experience of water in the mines.
were the conditions in the mines quite dangerous in those days?
well in those days er there wasn't much me much er coal cutting machine, this was all hewn by hand.
and we had the pit ponies and where we didn't have the pit ponies drawing the hutches, which we termed the small wagons carrying the coal from the coal face to the pit bottom, then er we had to do it by hand.
and if there were h a wagon or a hutch went off the road there you were with not enough height to lift it all back off the rail again and believe me that was experience in itself.
so it was quite a difficult job then?
it was a difficult job, yes.
mm.
what were the erm the wages and the hours like?
ooh, the wages.
i started the wages and er i didn't have much more, i started i had six and eight pence per shift.
mm.
and er what were the hours like?
the hours, well sometimes i would do a double shift which was sixteen hours.
or eight hours for a full shift, sixteen hours for a double shift.
mm.
and in those days we required the money and er often, very often we had to do it to strengthen our wages a bit.
do a double shift.
which meant you come home from your double er shift, went to your bed, had about four hours sleep and were back out for your normal shift again.
was you erm in a union or anything at all at this time?
yes, the miners' union then was just wasn't that that was started was .
in fact there's, very near the start of the unions in and o er that, that the miners' union was one of the first to start up.
do you think it gave you erm any advantages being in a union?
y oh yes it gave us advantage to the extent that we'd someone b behind us to fight for any, any er grievances that we had.
that was the idea of the union starting out in the first place.
mhm.
we had to pay into a union.
we can, on every friday there was a union official down there in a small hut.
we had straight from our wages straight to the union, it's payed at union right away.
so that there was nobody skipped.
what were the erm the erm relations between the w the workers and the bosses like?
ah well more or less much the same as it is today.
that's what we got the union for.
that's what we got the union for.
that's what we got the union for, to make sure that these things did not happen.
mhm.
that we wouldn't be stepped upon.
were you involved in er any strikes or anything?
yes, i was involved in the nineteen twenty six strike.
and in nineteen twenty er strike going at the present day there was what we called the soup kitchens.
and every local village where there was a mine had these soup kitchens.
i do not forget the other unions which were going at that present time helped us out quite a bit.
though we los we actually lost the strike through no fault of our own.
there was just because there wasn't enough money within all unions, not forget that there wasn't such a thing as a t u c then, this was in at the infancy when the unions first started, there wasn't such as a t u c, trades unions congress.
these were er in, in its infancy then and er we had a soup kitchen and er we, we got soup once a day, when we got issued with it.
each family took over a, a ration card.
and you got so many slices of bread, so many pots of soup.
and this was all done in old wash houses, where they used to have the boilers.
where we used to b boil the water.
and the soup was made in these boilers, and they were issued with their soup then.
and that was all we got.
what was it erm started the strike in the first place?
well they started the strike as muddled as as some greens come up and the men as union thought that was not right.
not forgetting in that most of the mines then, at that particular time, were nearly all privately owned.
mhm.
were nearly all privately owned.
were nearly all privately owned.
most, right across the length and breadth of great britain, were all privately owned.
which the present administration of central government are doing their best to, under the same hammer as it was in those days, so it's just, this is just a repeat performance of the those days and the government today.
was what it erm finally brought about the end of the strike in twenty six?
pardon?
what was it finally brought about the end of the strike in nineteen twenty six?
well it were just like i like i the unions weren't as, as er financially well off as they were er at the present day.
there was not the money, we were forced to.
as i say the present day er premier just now is actually trying to do the same thing as a repeat performance 
so sort of erm what was, was there erm any victimizations or anything like that, from the bosses when you went back to work?
oh immediately there was a victimization in the pit,o the pit was out.
mm.
it was er taken there .
the grievance was taken to the union, the union just say er told the steward who belonged to that particular pit there, right, just call the men out, that's it.
s so erm did presumably are quite strong like that then?
oh oh yes oh yes it was one of the be it still is one of the best unions.
still is one of the best for sticking
mm.
was there erm i've forgotten what i was going ask you.
er mm were there erm many strikes at the time?
oh no, oh no, oh there were all v very few and far be there may have been local strikes but, such as one day er a grievance been put in and the men struck work just for it.
but immediately the get a result.
so all our lads are more or less, that was lightning strikes and finish off.
mm.
one day and it was finished you know?
because that would union, you see?
did you work in the pits for a long time?
i was five years in the pits.
mhm.
er eh in er in lanarkshire and motherwell, and er at that time, being a young lad no more between er f er fourteen and twenty, i realized then that wasn't going to be a life for me.
so i then decided that i would join the army.
now i joined the army.
i served my time in both india, palestine, gibraltar, egypt and these sort of places abroad and when i, i nine months of my colour service to finish, which were a twelve year service,when war broke out in nineteen thirty nine.
i then went er across to france with the b e f. was in france about nine months approximately when the big invasion started in poland and through france.
i was taken prisoner of war at saint valerie for a few of my friends in from edinburgh who were taken prisoner of war.
i was taken to a main camp called lamstor camp in er polish er german border.
and er you, you know what happened then?
i was back down hole again.
for another five years work, so i served five years in germany too as a, as a miner.
the prisoners of war were used as miners in the
oh yes 
camps?
yes.
oh yes.
we were used as miners, yes.
how did the pay and the conditions and such like in the army compare with erm being in the mines?
er the, the money, the money that i money difference wasn't great but the fact was er who you were thinking about er when you did come out.
you had a lot of, a lot of qualifications which you could get in the army in those days that you didn't have when you were in civil life.
for instance you could learn to be a, a motor driver, you could learned to be an electrician, you could learn to be an engineer, you could learn to be anything.
and you through these courses and you got a certificate when you come out which er some of the said to us, a fully qualified member of a, so these advantages were open to us then you see?
mm.
so this was the, the main incentive for joining the army then?
pardon?
was that the main incentive for joining the army?
knowing that you gain qualifications?
well my that was my incentive the mines.
yeah.
but as i've already told you just, it was very ironical that i should l go back down the hole in er germany again .
were the conditions worse in the, in the german mines?
in the ?
oh no, i the mine, the mines in germany at that time were far advanced of what er britain's mines were.
cos they had different methods of doing the, digging the coal out, than they h than they had in britain.
and i believe .
although i've not been down a mine since then, er the german mines to my er estimation were far more advanced than what the british mines were.
were you made to work hard harder being a prisoner of war?
no harder than we did in britain.
you could not, no, a miner once he's been a miner, cannot go down er a pit and say to anyone down a pit, and say to anyone down a pit, that he's not a miner.
because he gives his right away.
the experience he has gained in the mines at immediately a man g a man who has been in the mines goes down there again his er n er he gives himself away, because, just because of the experiences.
i saw an incidence er down in the, the mine a, a miner himself can tell, by the creak of a tree just where the heavy, heavy weight's coming on the, on the, the roof.
and where there's likely to be a fall.
and the miner can only pick up a, a pick and knock the rook and he can tell exactly where er where it's weakest in the rook.
so, so these thi these things did do, show up when you're d when you're down the mines.
a ma a magic phase, you can't give it away.
and they didn't ne we didn't need the if we were a miner.
a mine w a miner could tell another miner by his accent.
not just by him telling he's a miner he can say er that's a miner.
what, what did you do erm after the war?
when you came back to britain.
well i, well er i came back to britain er i, i was er liberated by general patton in a, a small place called erfurt i was flown from erfurt into cherbourg, and from cherbourg into a small place called amersham which was a reception station for prisoners of war, where we were treated er on entering the camp we were handed a telegram.
all we had to do was sign our name to it.
and these telegrams were for, to our nearest and next of kin, telling us we were now safely home.
did erm did you notice any great differences when you came back from the war?
oh vast vast differences 
to the, to the 
er yes.
oh vast differences.
my first experience in going into tramcars er in, in edinburgh anyway and i suppose that the same thing would have happened er in any country,just gone through the ravages of war, with blackouts and so forth.
the people from the highest paid to the lowest paid were all just one unit.
and i wish to god that would just come back again, now there people would just treat one of our as they did it one of during the war's years.
and i can't see any reason why they can't.
why they should, people with a higher look down their nose at the people who are lower than themselves, i can not figure out.
i think we need another war to get rid of the er get rid of some of the thing that's happening at the present day.
so you think the war erm unified the people?
behind the 
er it definitely it had proved it itself.
it proved it, the war years proved it to the people.
er that they were, they were all just one.
but nowadays we're not, nowadays we, there's a higher, a middle class and a lower class and a lower lower class.
what erm what kind of employment did you find when you came back from the war?
well i, i erm my first employment was in the, was in the building trade with er an old firm in edinburgh called and believe me i was not a very fit person then after seven, five years and i was like a rake, i was like a skeleton.
and i got there and by good luck i got a very good er site agent and after asking me what i'd done, he says it's alright son we'll build you up.
and he actually treated me like a, more or less a son, the site agent, and he made sure er i gradually developed my muscles.
he never put me on a heavy job until at such times he thinks i was fit .
well that's the way i was treated when i came home.
by the the i served five year then and i left that and i went into corporation transport which was tramcars then.
and i went then from a, a timber mill and they there's various different jobs i've been in since then, you know?
what was the conditions like in the building trade after the war?
well er you know at that time there in the building trade there was er what they term a, an essential work order.
which you had, the government, the government or building firms had to guarantee you forty four hours' payment f of wages, forty four hours guaranteed and you had to get that whether you were working or not.
so that was an essential work order was by the government in power then.
that m er the firms must guarantee forty four hours wages for the man, doesn't matter what 
was, was this erm to protect the men or to make sure that erm
it's er it's more or less a 
retainer for the men.
aha.
a retainer so that they could have, that man couldn't go in another job 
.
aye.
presumably this was cos there was a big erm a big surge on to rebuild the
oh yes, yes there was 
country 
yes, yeah.
mhm.
the, the present, the present day er in edinburgh, the present day buildings that i helped to build up are now in pilton and in fact er out in saint i built, that was a er built a fact i did all the rough .
both in pilton and in present day er pilton circus which is er er there's a lot of er controversy going over er m making them, privatizing them and so forth but i l i was er the building of these things and did all the er the work for them.
is that erm quite a dangerous job working on the, on the building sites?
well it depending what, what sort of job you're doing.
all depending what sort of job your job, it could be dangerous if you didn't know what you were doing.
i mean you couldn't put a stranger on a job that you, you yourself .
but once you were qualified for the job you couldn't put a stranger on you had to ta teach that stranger a job.
before what he was to 
erm where did you go after the, after the building, the building work?
after the building i left er the building work and became a tram conductor where i went through a course in the, down at shrub hall went through a conductor's course.
after going through the conductor's course i then went to leith depot, old leith depot er of the, with the tramcars.
eventually was put on the tramcars as a, a conductor.
served with them as a conductor er for about approximately four years er and the experiences i had er as a conductor were many and varied er er if you do er recall er the old tramcars er the fares weren't in comparison today.
i can remember quite vividly the old tramcars running there er day and night, with the last service leaving the outskirts of edinburgh around about er twelve er eleven thirty and you g have about ten minutes or so to reach the depots which there were many and varied at this particular time.
there was depots in tower cross, portobello, leith, and many other places like that.
but while i tramcar leaving any suburban area there was always what was known then as a worker's return.
and that worker's return was three pence.
three pence for a worker's return.
and it was always on that er tramcar, whichever er suburban district they were leaving, was always a packed car.
always fully laden.
because the conductor always had to wait until such time as the queue was diminished quite a bit and hi his tramcar was full so that the next tramcar come along er coming along, whatever number, was to be d the same thing happening again.
so the suburban districts then were very well served with the old tramcars.
and i believe myself today, at present day,the tramcars were coming back again, there would be, could be a way of resolving this matter of going onto different buses.
i take, for instance, the present day just now where we have, what we term, the old aged pensioner's railcard.
now what is to stop, instead of an old age pensioner getting on, with their ticket, or a thirty pound annual ticket or their quarter quarterly ticket.
what on earth's to stop, to have a transfer ticket, which could be used on any bus at all.
so there would b take away this anomaly of old people having to use three buses to get from one end of the town to the other, which means, in actual fact, that each bus they went on to, they paid this ten pence, which if there's three, if they do not turn it twice a week, twice a day, that's sixty pence.
now why can't they issue a ticket, transferable ticket so i don't have to use three buses, all i have to do is i've got one ticket, now that ticket reserved for particular .
do you think then that the er trams provided a better service for the people than the buses?
well we were a better er service, they were a better ser i'm not saying that i think so, i know they were a better service don doesn't does n they're not quite proof, there were in an tramcar edinburgh corporation tramcars were running, they were running at a, a, every year a profit.
whereas at the present time, with the buses, it's all deficits.
if that is not proof i .
the one speech for the other surely.
was you erm in a union at this time, when you were in the
yes, transport and general workers' union was, yes.
did you find that erm there was more advantages in being in the union, when you working on the trams?
oh there always is advantages.
if you're a staunch union member there is advantages.
with the proviso that you keep your payments up to date.
and attend your branch meetings.
was there any erm disputes or anything at that time on the, on the trams?
oh very few and far between.
very few and far between.
maybe just locally, at local garages but as far as, far as being the all national or anything like that, there was never anything i with the tramcars.
were the erm the relations with the bosses and the workers quite good, on the ?
very good, very good.
oh.
even with the inspectors too, there was always a good er going with the, the people in those days.
mhm.
and was this quite a well paid job?
well it erm it was average, it was average.
yes.
and er did you have to work like erm shifts and things like that?
oh yes.
ex exactly the same as going to the present day.
you had the split shifts and the down shifts and maybe we were called for er a 
what did you do after you left, you left the trams?
after i left the trams then er i went er i went away to east kilbride.
i used to work for a certain er c er creamery there.
er 
getting milk, separating milk er pasteurizing milk and like that.
was east kilbride one of the erm one of the new towns?
it was er now it was, now at the start of the new town er present east kilbride a new town, it was known as a new town and it was just starting to build up.
and i had better chances of getting a proper house for myself and my family which was then two daughters and my wife and i.
so we actually went there to better ourselves and try and get a h a reasonable house to sort of live in and 
was there a lot of encouragement given to people to move out premises?
oh yes, at that time there was, yes.
oh yes.
if they accepted it of course.
was it er easy finding a job at that time as well, in the, in the new towns?
oh yes.
it was being that the, the rolls royce saturday, came in to east kilbride and, and american firms like that were coming along.
singer sewing machines and sort of things like that.
they were all coming into east kilbride, there was b cos after all there was starting off a new town and they was building up then from it.
what were the erm conditions like in the creamery where you worked?
very good.
we got our free milk, of course, we got our free milk.
that was one we got our free milk as many pints of milk as we required for to keep our fam but no more, no more than that, just much your family had they'd allow you a pint per per person.
was it erm was it hard work in the in the creamery?
oh no.
no not in comparison to the jobs i'd already been in.
oh no this was much easier for me.
because at that time .
and er after this did you move back to edinburgh?
i moved back to edinburgh too because er my er my family had taken a yearning for edinburgh, they didn't like east kilbride so i says left.
and also it's true today, you go where your family wants to go and that was, this was er they had a yearning for that and they were not settling down so
what did you do when you when you moved back to edinburgh?
well i went into a timber yard er known as er, what was the timber yard again now?
.
and they .
where as i said er working with timber.
was that erm like sawmill or something?
sawmills, sawmills and .
cabinet makers 
was that a dangerous job?
well it could be dangerous, if you didn't watch what you were doing.
like every other, other job you've got to er gain experience as you go along, you've got to experience.
and you've always got to, you've always g advice and on how to handle it before you, you put actually handling them.
were there erm any accidents or anything?
er but if there was any accidents through negligence, if there were accidents, it was negligence er and the people by themselves.
which is er worker often, often often most of our accidents is caused by negligence.
so what were the conditions in the er in the mill like?
very good, very good conditions.
very good conditions indeed, aye.
was there a union there as well?
er there w wasn't a union then.
mm.
i believe there is so now, but there wasn't then.
so it, it didn't really matter to me.
i've always still held my card.
although i still held my card of the transport and general workers.
mhm.
so you continue to be a member of the transport and general 
oh aye, yes, oh .
oh yes.
god i you could never tell if you're, you're going to be there long enough in job, if the, the boss didn't like you then he would just say well you're, you're paid off and that's it, so that's sort of benefit of keeping your union membership up you could go to anywhere where there was a trade union, a union membership and get a job.
so er the, was being unemployed at that time quite precarious?
if there was 
it was, it was.
at that time, yes.
it was er at that time because of the, they were very few and far between.
employment was very few and far between.
because there wasn't the same amount of work,this is just after the war i'm talking about, and there wasn't so many going then.
there were only starting making themselves then.
er
so were erm were jobs quite hard to come by in those days, after the war?
well er well it all depended on the individual themselves.
if there's a miner who's in getting work.
although you had to be very careful in er in d knowing what to go after.
depending on the rate of wages.
depending on the rate of wages.
so you're actually, if you're going for a job, you want er for the highest place where you get the highest wages, which was a for any working, you're going to 
what did you do after you left the erm after you left the timber mill?
after the timber mill, er .
now can i remember about after the timber mill?
let's see now.
my mind's a blank i've been in that many different jobs now.
i thought you said you were in a, a warehouse after that wasn't 
oh that's right.
you i was in a warehouse at served thirteen year there.
and i was working in a large warehouse, a three floor warehouse, a grocers,grocers.
i served there for thirteen year, became a chargehand eventually and eventually the f the firm folded up.
what were they
very old established firm, it was established in er eighteen fifty six.
so it was a, a, a firm of about a hundred years standing at that time.
but the both brothers who owned it er charles er john and tom were becoming very very aged and were not capable of carrying on the job.
and they approached the son who wasn't interested so they just folded up.
what were the conditions like where you worked in the warehouse?
ah well we, we actually made our own condition and this is one time, i'm telling you again, where my union membership came in very handy.
i actually made it a union firm .
so you unionized the whole firm then?
organ organized it.
organized the people inside it.
and i explained to them what benefits they were getting.
mm.
although the employer was pretty reasonable to us he p always payed us sixpence above the rate.
above the normal rate.
what was the erm the employer's attitude to you unionizing and organizing and 
oh oh he didn't say, he says oh just a, it'll not worry me he says, whether you er start one or not he says.
i pay my men sixpence over the, the rate.
so i says well thank you very much, but still for mu l people benefit themselves.
mm.
they're better being in a union, he says i agree with you, quite agree with you.
the union fights for he says, and the union's a but i'm one of these employers who paying them, my men a plus rate, so i'm paying men sixpence plus over the normal rate so there was no difficulty there.
mhm.
so he obviously wouldn't have thought the union would have been much of a threat to him seeing as he 
no, no it didn't because he was prepared to pay over er above the rate .
the union already fought for that rate and they got it.
but he was paying them sixpence above the rate so there was no problem to him.
did you notice much differences in the work once you got promoted to a chargehand?
well er there was i didn't do so much of the normal grafting naturally, but i was always, if there was a new man came on the job they would always learns.
and i was to show him what to do and i made sure that all .
on the first day i made sur i stayed with that man all day.
as i said i stayed with that man all day.
although i wouldn't t in interfere with show him how to do the job and er i would make sure he understood the job.
if he asked me such and such i'd say now this is how you do it.
if he said to me, after i'd shown him, that he understood it, i would say alright, show me how you do it.
and then that way the man learnt.
mm.
the man himself learnt.
and usually the man telling me he understood if eventually when he starts the job, he hasn't understood at all, he's just saying so, but i wanted to prove to the man himself that he could do it and prove to myself that he could do it.
so i was in a safe and so was the man.
but 
so you were given the responsibility then to train people up?
given the first in this .
now then that were left on the 
did erm do you still keep up your union er membership right away when you were
oh yes, oh yes.
aye, yes .
in fact i were shop steward in the, in the building trade, i was a shop steward in the building trade.
mm what did you go on to do after that?
after the business folded?
was there anything like erm redundancy money or anything like that payed at that time when the place 
er 
folded?
and can you remember what year it was?
oh it's about
just roughly.
fifty, fifty seven i think.
it was somewhere thereabout.
mhm.
and they didn't have all this er legislation about redundancy money or anything then?
no no.
in its infancy then.
and, and then er at that particular time you know and er then unemployment you, i you had to see each firm was issued with the and the firms had to agree that you had to sign a contract of employment so that er if you were leaving or he was paying you off, you had to be given two weeks' notice either way before they pay you off.
and that was the contract of employment.
mhm.
yeah.
what did you go on to do after the business folded?
ah well i was, i was a y on er thing we had back in the building trade.
back in the building trade once again which i had experience before so i had no problem .
and the reason in the first place i did leave the building trade was my hands was breaking out with in industrial disease, see?
dermatitis and i felt i couldn't go near cement and all of that.
but then i, eventually i tried the building trade again and i joined a firm called er forget, or something like that and i was working up in george street in, in, in edinburgh.
you always go building, we gutted right from ground floor, left the existing walls in.
and then inside building we completely demolished inside, just sort of left the retaining walls and built it up from fourteen feet below the ground to five storeys, high,itself.
and we had to go down through fourteen feet of solid rock.
so this was obviously quite a difficult job?
aye it was a difficult job but as i say to have an experience mines
mhm.
and er building trade work, both of these things had left me with the qualifications for be abl be able to do it.
did you notice much difference in the sort of er erm the techniques or the machinery or whatever that was being used between ?
ooh vast va er er in the building trade?
oh yes, yes.
for instance you see all these big they'd actually built up from the ground up, they'd no taking now just the odd .
they built up from a working 
was there still the erm the, the thing you talked about with the guaranteed work at that time?
yes.
oh aye aye.
yes 
but er the essential work contract then that i had spoken about in the first place the building trade, that was a government order.
essential, essential work which was operated during the war years and er what year a couple, several years after that.
that was an essential b eventually that was taken away, but the building trade still believed if a building firm wanted men, they had to have at least a thirty two hour guarantee, which is at present still in operation.
a thirty t they had to guarantee an employee thirty two hour guarantee,
was that to get rid of the sort of ee erm the way them building firms used to take people on every day?
exac stop this casual labour business you see?
whe whereas the building trade would say oh i'll take you, you're a friend of mine, i'll take you you're a friend of i can take you, you're a friend .
it was it was a great lot down in leith here, and i've often seen it down in leith docks.
when i've been down there trying to get casual work, you know in leith docks?
and he just down, they're all in a big crowd .
and a chap come out the offices and say right, you you you .
so in actual fact it was always a favour cos i got the jobs.
so to stop all that, this is with the b building trade, they had to guarantee them.
so presumably that was quite a popular piece of er legislation?
legislation, oh definitely.
mhm.
i've had s still operating now to present day, i don't know.
mm.
what did you do erm after that?
well as a reach up up .
in fact that's what i left from, i left from the job at job street in george street with the building trade.
that's when i .
and i work after that.
but the site prepared to let me work, to carry on then as s they ma and i wouldn't claim my pension until i'd finished.
and behind that, their reasoning for that is, for every year that i worked over my retir retireable age, there's a that is added to my pension.
he says i haven't got you working long longer i worked the bigger the pension i have when i go out .
so were you allowed to work er after your retireable age?
not, not at that particu when they got to hear about it.
mm.
of course they, they had questions of and he says oh well i've sat with him, the man's prepared working at lambert, but no you can't allow the man to work after he's sixty and that was it.
so that was me on.
but the oaps 
were you involved in any erm political parties or anything er ?
no no not necessary though, though i have done quite a wee bit just now er in support of my labour party, you know?
done quite a wee bit and i've been there at a few of their, quite a few of their meetings and erm a good friend of quite a few of the councils.
and lothian district council.
quite a good friend of them you know and i'm a close contact with them.
is it just been recently that you've started to get involved ?
within the last ten years, i've been ten years activ actively concerned with the old aged pensioners' association and er the labour movement.
mhm.
d do y do you think there's a great difference between the labour party now and the labour party when you were working ?
ah well, more or less the same.
they're more or less as a, i don't think there's a great lot of difference onl i d i, they're not pushing, they haven't the same, the, i would like to say, i would say they haven't the same interest in their union, they've not the same interests in the union as they had in the earlier days when there was a union.
mm.
did your involvement in the trade unions when you were young got lead to your, any involvement in the labour party or anything like that?
oh no, not necessarily through the union, no no.
i've just had so solely an interest to defend myself.
ah but i believed if i'm going to discuss or argue about anything as regarding that i had to be interested in it.
and to be interested you've got to attend your branch meetings and know what's going on.
whether it be a union branch meeting or any other branch meeting you had to be there and you had to know what you're talking about.
don't just go into these meetings and sat there like a dumbbell.
you liked it, if you've been active at all you'd want to know what's going on.
and the only way you can do that is b attending your branch meetings.
i mean there's no, no use a man being employed and he's got a shop steward if he don't and depend on the shop steward coming down to tell him what happens in the meeting.
my reply to these people, if they asked me what happened at the branch meeting i say, do you want to know what happened in the branch meeting?
yes, i said well attend them.
so that was er that was my answer 
when you were er in the unions and you were a shop steward, did you find that you got a lot of people working in branch meetings?
well it wasn't too bad, it were not too bad from the, the firm that i oper i worked from.
the firm that i worked from weren't too bad.
but as i say as paying the er r i, i've seen them when i'm going round the site er i got an option from the firm, i'd be allowed time off my work, my actual work on the, on the, on the site, to go round and collect their unions dues.
i'd got an option from the firm and they were very good that way.
and i've seen them, whenever they see me come along, going away and trying to hide.
but i say there's been a 
you mentioned the erm the national association of
scottish old age pensioners' associations 
scottish old age pensioners' association.
what do they erm, that, what does that association do?
oh well wait a i'm just going to read first to you.
the name of the association shall be the scottish old age pensioners' association.
the, the association shall be non party and non sectarian , you understand my meaning by that?
that we advocate the immediate implementation of the scottish old people's chapter, to strive to maintain and improve the standard of living of pensioners by ensuring that the pension will rise according to the cost of living or er or livings or earnings,which er whichever is the most advantageous .
and number, and two,to press for the provision of suitable houses for old people at rents they can afford.
and social services as may be required to ensure the welfare of the aged, as set out in our declaration of intent.
in cooper in cooperation with bodies on all questions affecting the welfare of pensioners .
that's er br 
is it er was it a very large organization?
well we er it's a, it's a national organization in fact, it's, it's all over the country, all over er scotland.
from as far up as er in er inverness down to the er borders.
er branches approximately thirty one branches in edinburgh which i myself er er attend to.
as far as the financial side of things goes.
and er a g a good er and er, can be er the mi the name itself, the scottish old age pensions association is not to be mistaken from er, sometimes it's misread as the scottish old age pensioners' association.
now if you use that, that g gives the people the wrong impression that you must be a pensioner before you can join it, but this is not so.
it's, it's known as the scottish old age pensions association.
not the scottish old age pensioners' association.
you can join this association any time after the age of eighteen.
do you have a lot of er younger members?
that's what we er we want, that's what we require, because don't forget old people er, in fact our present national treasurer, a mrs mary , is now serving as the national treasurer and has done for the last thirty five years.
still national treasurer and she's o well over eighty, she's still the national treasurer.
board of conference, every year for two, two days conference, and we go to different parts of the country, aberdeen, dundee, glasgow, stirling, you name it, we have conference in.
it changes every year so we go to these conference and we fight on our declaration of intent, on pensions, pensions reviews, that's er reviewing a pension what we're trying to get for the government of the day to review the pensions every six months instead of at the present every year.
are as an instance do that, the present government er last year, in fact since it some over, it was the seventy nine, er nineteen seventy nine.
we were getting paid our pensions on the first week of nove november.
now if anyone like to look at the present day and er pension book, they'll discover that since then, for the last three years, they've done the people of this country out of one week's pension every year.
they've now, this government has actually made a, a fifty three year or a fifty four week year.
is it a very er lobby,
ooh yes yes yes.
we're, i am up at least, anything from ten to twelve times a year up at lothian regional council or the district council in deputations concerning, anything concerning the old age pensions associations.
and has been imposed on old people of er edinburgh and er .
so the, they're, the old people have been been done o out of a lot of money.
this year in itself, the single person has been done out of two pound ninety pence and er after the er older ones that's four pound odd.
this year alone.
so if you total it up,be er again and first of all council being a, being a council, and they succeeded very well.
and at the leith, south leith very very well and they just er district council.
was there a lot of that sort of feeling around, that sort of protestant action 
no no this one man this one, one man in the whole of edinburgh district council was protestant tax.
what er caused them to put that for the er group forward i could not tell you, but that's what he stood for, this protestant action.
he was neither liberal, labour, conservative, none of them, he was just, he 
mm.
what had been a er election representative until 
er er an election agent,election agent when you're er a er d doing the work of an election agent, you've got to be responsible for all the data going out concerning the running of the election.
making sure that your candidate attends every meeting, for er s you know during er an election campaign they've got to attend all the meetings.
well the election agent was the man responsible for getting that data through to the, the candidate to say that you're speaking at a meeting, such and such a night, and another meeting at such and such so keeping the, keeps that candidate on his toes, all the time, during an election campaign until election's over and then of course er you know what transpires after that i su it's either 
was you involved in the labour party for a long time before erm before you were the election agent?
no.
no no no no.
no n never.
of course i had this spell er er don't forget i was five years as a prisoner of war, and a lot of interest because i was a union member pra b previous to that you see?
was this what erm led you to join the labour party?
your initials at a trade union 
yeah yes, that was er actually yes er
mhm.
i wanted to see how it o o operated politically.
i'd heard a lot about er af er i've been in the transport and general workers' union as a shop steward and so forth like that.
that this was interesting me.
i want to know, find out the workings of it, politically.
what did erm how did you find the labour party at that time compares with the labour party now?
oh much better.
w er united.
it's not united at the present day, there are far too many lefts and rights and centres.
if there's e if there any party's operating at all, there's only one p one thing and that's centre.
no lefts, no rights, centre.
united.
and the same in most of our organizations in this country at the present day, and that's what's wrong.
it's holding them back.
when you've got a left, a right and a centre, you've got three different parties within a party.
so the labour party got united then at that time?
oh definitely, very well united, yes.
then.
but don't forget that was just after the war and er the labour were beginning to build up, getting things better, run better country than they were previous p people.
did the labour party gain a lot of support after the war?
oh yes, aye they did oh.
oh aye proved it, they got in.
e eventually they got into parliament.
erm now did your er labour party membership lapse after, after that time?
er yes it did lapse.
because i had seen my young brother-in-law and i says i'm gonna be like that then, didn't fe er feel any of this er at that time.
me,as the district council.
i couldn't see myself doing it so as i said i wasn't going to make a fool of myself by putting my name as being nominated forward er as a candidate etcetera lose interest that's the first thing that happened because they knew i was an outspoken bloke.
i knew spoke too much next nominee, next candidate for .
and i felt it wasn't up to them, i didn't have enough experience i wanted to gain some more experience but it just fell away, lapse.
and erm you're, you're not a member of the labour party again?
no i'm not a member of the labour party yet.
oh.
you see the pre the present system we've got scottish old age pensioners is non sectarian, non political.
you understand?
is this er does that actually debar from belonging to er 
oh i could have er er well it doesn't debar me but i feel it, it would it wouldn't be right, for me being a labour party member sitting on a, a non-segregated and non-political gr er ah association,
mhm.
now er you, you mentioned your, your pensions association.
now you're area treasurer, aren't you, for the
area treasurer, er edinburgh area 
can you tell me a bit about the organization and what its aims 
well the aims i'll just read this and this says, this gives you most .
this the name of the association shall be the scottish old age pensions association.
the association will be non party and non sectarian.
one.
that we advocate the immediate implementation of the scottish old people's chapter to strive to maintain and improve the standard of living of pensioners by ensuring that the pension will rise according to the cost of living or earnings, whichever is er is the most ad advantageous.
two.
to press for the provision of suitable houses for old people at rents they can afford.
and social services as may be required to ensure the welfare of the aged as set out in the declaration of intent.
to this end we employ all constitutional means in cooperation with similar bodies on all questions affecting the welfare of pensioners .
that's, that's our aim.
aim and object of it.
where the,le let's say association was first formed on the thirteenth of february nineteen seven, nineteen thirty seven, so you can see by that date fifty years an established national organization for the whole of scotland.
what does the er the organization do?
the organiz er organization doing is er fighting in every place where we think that there are o old aged pensioners being in er imposed upon in any way.
whether it be welfare, gas bills, housing, you name it and we're in there fighting to, to keep them above the water, their heads above the water.
you go on about erm some of the experience you've had, some of the you've met.
well i er er er i've occasionally thing that was about last ye er year or the year before a as being a member of one of the, one of the lunch clubs.
er and er the lothian region took over the lunch clubs when they took over er this two tier government in scotland, you know?
they took over the lunch clubs.
and immediately they started raising the prices of the lunch clubs.
well we were up there one time er at the lothian region and we to be up and tell that this was imposing higher things on, higher prices on both the bus buses, because they were raising the bus fares at the same time, and they were increasing the lunch club.
now the, the pensions when they raised at the same time, because we only pension raised every year, and we're up there at that particular time at the lothian region, a full council meeting.
and er we had told them that the q the quality of the food was reasonable.
but the quantity the quantity of the food being issued in lunch clubs was very very u even disgraceful.
i er er i serve our people with quantity of food that's supposed to be meant to be a dinner for an old old age person.
and er they listened very carefully to us, in fact council of kivanagh actually brought up a sample of the dinner they issued to old people and i, i did notice as soon as they put this sample on the table the opposition the c conservatives and they still are, their heads bowed.
they refused to look at it.
and i would have thought that that was a disgraceful thing to do in a public, in the council to a, a sample being brought up and they were afraid to look at it.
their heads were actually downcast, they themselves were ashamed of it and yet they would not commit themselves to vote for it.
will you tell me a little about the erm the campaigns you've the erm the free erm travel on the buses 
oh well the, the campaigns er i'm, i'm o i'm only speaking actually about the, down here in leith i started my campaign for er the er let's see,campaign for er introd reintroduction of free travel for the elderly.
the campaign was supposed to start with,a away back in the beginning of september.
well i by good luck have had some copies of the petition sent down to me, so i started it, it immediately and i had in the first they made over one thousand one hundred and twenty five signatures.
in the first day.
and i had er had given myself a target of five thousand for leith so i turned up the next and made my five thousand in fact i made five thousand and fifty signatures for the h and i believe myself if, if every branch were doing the same as i had been doing then we would have no problem at all in getting a hundred thousand signatures which is our aim.
and they said so at the er at the district council, went up to district and i asked for the support of the district council and er probably john immediately said, you have the full support of the district council for it he says and i'll ensure that you get support with the result i also received four posters direct from the edinburgh district council with john photograph on it and with the caption st stating every old age pensioner should be signing here.
so that in itself was a great boost for me and it er it helped a lot.
i also got support from er labour labour party in leith who sent down two volunteers to help me.
so it's made a lot, a big difference too.
i also had support from lance house and from er leith community centre.
so i wasn't, i wasn't doing it all on my own, you understand my meaning?
i weren't doing it all although i sort of organized it.
and when i took, i had to report back to area control i was immediate i got immediate applause.
but i just said i don't want any applause for this at all, i feel that every pensioner, every pensioner should sign it whether they belong to the association or not.
whether they have a senior citizens' club with the association.
if they want the free bus passes they've got to something done about themselves and .
one of my in fact was i can remember, i went up when i was first er paying for paying for an annual ticket with their bus passes and eight pound for a single ticket for us er for our quarterly ticket.
i was up there three days campaigning, objecting to this that i'm being charged and believe me for those three days i stood right in queen street, just outside the offices there, and at no, any time during, at any particular time of day, you could have come along to me, and there were still one thousand five hundred people standing there, rain, hail, sleet or blow.
for their tickets, and i said at the area council if they had turned up like they turned up to pay them thirty pound and eight pound, if they'd turned up at the same time with a petition form what a difference it would 
what kind of erm reaction do you get from the different political parties to your campaign?
oh well, well er most of us are b even, even the tories themselves know, they know that we're fighting for the old people, but do they we get the same old reply from them, where is the money coming?
that's the s o o reply, and that is all cos because of the central go government support grant who are naturally younger.
they're responsible for the, for the present that they keep, they keep sending us this and that minister,and that.
but they're, they're the gov they're going to end up in the government.
they're going to govern the country, they cut the money off from they cut the support grant from the, the from the district council, and still are, still are, and there's going to be even bigger cuts the next year.
going to be even bigger cuts the ne and it's en there no used to lothian regional council hall and district council.
if the lothian regional c council can't get their money from a from, a central government, where are they going to get it from?
so erm do you get a lot of support from the labour party for your campaign?
oh every time, without fear wherever you are er labour's scottish commons gives full support to the scottish old age pensions association's pensions policy.
that's from our own, we also have the trades union congress with the same.
and that's when i say we have a, a campaign which is going to, it's a demonstration and er and rally in the end of march, of next year.
when we will be marching off probably from regents street, proceeding along queens er princes street .
and then we've got us a we're going to the cinema.
and that's a, and that's them all over the country, not only edinburgh, all over the country, in north south east and west and you name it.
and we have branches, but we could have a lot more because the amount of branches we have, although we have a lot of branches of scottish old age pensions we are not old age pensioners are not united, they're not united, the only way they can be united, if it's a national organization, join your national organization and fight the government.
you can't do so locally, if you're all working separately.
you've got to unite and get in the one gives us strength to fight them.
is er how large is your organization?
nationally.
well i er th well i couldn't, i'm not in a position to give the, the total because the national, the national treasurer would be able to you see?
and as i said, mrs mary she's the national treasurer and has been for over thirty years.
that woman's now approaching eighty three, eighty four years of age and she's still national treasurer, so it gives you a sort of sample of the, the kind of people they have at the top, who are really their heart and soul in it.
pensioner themselves who would sit down and think, now take for instance assuming that i wouldn't be a member of that just so surely a, a senior citizens' club.
now you go into a seniors citizens' club, you enter your name and you get registered in the register, you get your cup of tea and then you get social activity.
i remember thinking si sit down and say and where do we get this money pay for this tea, and this money pay for the registration.
where do you get it from?
a voice says it's solely from my pension,quite able and get enough to give to join the association at less than a penny a week.
do you find you get a lot of erm resonance from old age pensioners when you ask them to join.
are a lot of them er quite prepared to fight to get their erm
oh the the members 
the members who are members of the branches are prepared to fight, but it's not them i'm er i'm the other people who are er they're gaining from our fight, they're gaining from our fight.
where we've tried, we've tried to keep a reasonable pension for them.
but they're not fighting because they've nobody no, national officials to fight for them.
we, we have the only national organization to f er that goes on to fight for goes, goes to parliament and fights for them.
have you had any erm any sort of successes in your campaigns that you've run?
oh yes oh well er er is just across in fact is across the border.
everyone got free passes over there.
has that just been in re-instituted lately?
yeah, oh aye.
by just .
it's only within the last couple of year, and then oh no you cannae do a certain of the er it was actually our vice president at the started the campaign over in fife, and they won through.
and there again the supported the, both the region and their district council.
and here we have the calling under er an administration you know who they are and they're hanging their heads every time you speak, you speak to them.
they're ashamed of themselves but they're afraid to admit it.
they're afraid of, ashamed of themselves and they do to the old people.
and they're afraid to admit it.
they've all got somet an, an evasion or a counter argument with you.
and it's general to fail.
i've bought, i've, i've, as i say, when i pay my have you got a mother and father?
. and they ne er never never answers it direct, never answers it direct.
what's that got to do with it?
never comes out with anything like that just,got another one ,answer you.
can you tell me about the er incident that happened when you went to meet erm brian at the council offices?
oh yes, at that particular time, i will tell you that once again er, that was er i was supposed to go for an interview and this was er for the er declaration of intent of,wh which was er supposed to er supposed to be given every year to both the lothian regional council and the district .
and this is happened all over the country, each area are doing the same thing and all of this this er produce this declaration of intent and ask the, the head of the er council to put it to their members and get the support of their members.
now the r the reason for us doing that is that if they do accept it, they are duty bound as a council to write to prime minister, prime minister, direct, saying they support the declaration of intent.
cos every, cos really the should go direct to her, and it as she's taken notice of you yet.
all, all it does it comes round and er er regional council, say no we support she's got to think,.
well that's the idea of, anyway we're going back to brian and er accepted that he would accept the d the deputation,showing there was three of us, there was the m the president of the area council, myself and the secretary.
well we er duly arrived down at quarter to ten as twenty six of september this year.
and we went up there and we had just we'd, we took the labour rooms and er of course we had got a cup of tea with them you know?
and in comes councillor the leader of the labour group, you see?
well lads, he says, i'm sorry you'll have to wait another hour.
course naturally we, we asked why?
what was the matter?
he says er i've just had a phone call from brian , he can't meet you until eleven o'clock.
an an of course and naturally i says well why, why is he getting ?
is he in the building?
no, he says, his car's broken down.
i says what a bloody excuse, i says and his car broke down, shh bloody corporation buses here, why doesn't he use a corporation bus to get in?
why doesn't he ph ring for his bloody chauffeur?
or his k .
why doesn't he get that?
no.
no he says er that, that's er that's all i can tell you er that's, he wouldn't until eleven o'clock,come.
and er immediately he went there was, somewhere around about eleven o'clock he .
right,that deputation of er old age pensioners.
so we immediately walk through and he's all, all .
very pleased to meet you, no no .
now he says er, what is this now, and of course immediately the president says, well you know happens er mr , can we says you've read it before, you see?
and so the our declaration of intent, you've read of before, you know what we're up here.
and of course er once he read it and er put it down and scribbled in his notes.
agrees with so and so and agrees with this and agrees with that.
first of all,mr can i ask you a question?
i says how come you deputation, you gave us a time of which to be here, now we said, we turned up a quarter hour beforehand and i says we get a phone call er a an intermission from councillor that you couldn't make it because that your car broke down.
he says that's right.
er , that's alright, let's behave ourselves, i says what about us, we've been here since quarter to ten waiting for you to come.
you .
you're not the one who's got to .
i says what was wrong with you not on a corporation t er a corporation bus?
and he didn't know where to look.
but eventually he, he, he again when time we started and then he moved on to it, back on to declaration of intent, and they pulled him up and took .
he didn't agree with er h no, he read a part of one of the d declaration of in one of resolutions, that a substantial concessionary fare would be alright.
and that's what you're getting here so as far as i'm concerned .
i says you're picking holes, you're picking holes and i says i'll tell you what, that declaration of intent is last year's declaration of intent.
i says a new declaration of intent has not yet been printed.
i says but you'll find next year when we approach you with this declaration you'll find it's been changed to free passage and where will your argument be then?
. proper gent mi mind, don't get me wrong.
er he'll, he's a good fighter and a good, a good, a good but there's certain points you can pick holes .
somebody once said that if angelism, sharing the gospel was one beggar telling another beggar about bread, where it could be found and undoubtedly when he was saying that he was thinking of that story that account that we had read to us earlier from the second book of kings, chapter seven, and i'd like us to er turn back to us for a few moments this morning and perhaps draw some lessons for ourselves sometimes as christians its very easier for us to say what sins are, and we can see other people's failings, you don't have to be a christian to do that of course, plenty of other people can do that, they see the failings of other people, they see the wrong doing they do, they see their wickedness their, their waywardness, whatever words we want to use to describe it, and we say well that is sin, perhaps for most of us this morning we could make er a list a, a, a tabulate a table of sins and we might say well they are worse sins and there are lesser sins and i would i suppose by and large there would be a fairly reasonable consensus of opinion regarding what was sins and what were not sins.
sometimes the bible surprises us a little bit of course, and it puts it finger on things that we perhaps don't really want to talk about or we don't even consider as sins and the bible is quite clear that not all sins are what we do often there what we don't do in parable that jesus told concerning the traveller, the man who went down to jericho, we don't condemn the priest and the levite for what they did, but we do condemn them for what they didn't do, their sin was not what they did, it was what they left undone, going over and looking at the man was very note worthy, as least there was some interest there and we don't condemn them for that, but we do condemn them for hurrying along and not reaching out and helping the man in the pistol of james and chapter four and verse seventeen james says there, any one then who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins so the sins that you and i comment or the sins rather that we are guilty of are not just the things that we do there of times the things that we don't do and sometimes there more difficult for us to put a finger on, we can justify them so very easily its been said that all it needs for evil to triumph, is for good men to say or to do nothing well lets look at the, that,illu illustration there that we have in the second book of kings.
as i mentioned early the, the city of sermaria it was under siege and the army of seria was encamped all around it, ben hadad was a great warrior, he would of been the, the alexander or the napoleon of his day and he had set up this encampment around the city of sermaria, nobody could get in, nobody could get out and very quickly the stocks of food and water er were used up, rationing would of been introduced but it only lasted for a certain period, they'd got to the stage it tells us in the previous chapter that er, that a donkeys head was sold for eighty shekel's of silver and some folk had even got to the, had sunk to the level of cannibalism, of eating their own children and the city was, when they heard about this they were in an uproar and they started blaming god and in between the city of sermaria of all its suffering and hopelessness and helplessness and the army encamped about with all of their supplies, there was this area of no mans land in which they were caught up four men who were leapers and they were trapped there, they didn't want to go over to the serians because they'd be killed, they didn't want to go back into the city because they weren't allowed there and any way what was the point, they'd only die of starvation in there and so these four men are caught up in no man's land and yet their no better off than people in the city, now god had promised deliverance, through his serve and eliger he had promised deliverance, eliger said tomorrow about this time a measure of fine flour shall be sold for a se shekel and two measures of barley for a shekel in the gate of semaria, he said the gates are gonna be open, there's gonna be food and its gonna be a reasonable price and it says the royal officer who's hand the king was leaning on said the man of god said behold, if the lord shall make windows in heaven could such a thing be, he said don't talk stupid man, how can such a thing happen for us?, he didn't believe what god servant said and eliger brings out to him a terrible judgment, he says because of your unbelief you will see it, but your not participate in it but lets look at these four men for a moment, cos that's where our real interest lies this morning, i just wanted to say three things in their experience, the first things is that they were amazed that, at what they found, because after they come together and they talk about it and they said well what shall we do and they weighed the pro's and the cons and semaria doesn't look very attractive with its cannibalism, they said well the least if we stay here were gonna die, if we go into semaria we'll die, lets go down to the serein camp, the worse they can do to us is put us to death and were dying men any way, but they may just take pity on us, we maybe allowed to grope around in their dustbins and get some scraps of food, they may at least allow us that, and so they make their way down just as evening is falling, they make their way down to the serein lines and when they get there, they are amazed at what they find, you see their condition was helpless and hopeless, they were dying men any way, they were lepers, but they were dying of starvation, that was far more imminent than their leprosy, their problems and their needs were greater than themselves, they could not meet their own needs, their problems and their needs were greater than their government, the king in semaria and all of his court could not meet the needs of his people and then in verse five, we read something there, they arose at twilight to go to the camp of aramians or the serein's and when they came to the outskirts of the camp of the serein's behold there was no one there, they expected to at least meet a guard, there would surely be somebody on sentry duty even if the rest of the soldiers had gone in to their tents and were perhaps getting ready for their, for the evening, going to bed or whatever they were gonna be doing, having their evening meal, there would at least be somebody on guard duty, but when they got there, there was no one there, god had stepped in, god had intervened and the good news of the christian gospel is that god has intervened in our, in the midst of our helplessness, in the midst of our hopelessness, god has intervened, he had stepped in to history, so often you'll hear folks say, well why doesn't god do something, why does god allow this to happen, why does god allow that one, why doesn't he do something all they really show by that comment is their own ignorance, because god has done something, god has intervened, listen to what it says in john three sixteen, for god so loved the world that he gave, he's only son and the er, the er apostle paul and he's writing to the gallations, in chapter four and in verses four and five hear what he says there,but when the time had fully come god sent his son, born of a woman, born under law to redeem those under law that we might receive the full rights of son, er of sons , god has done something, he's sent his son jesus christ into this world in fact his done the greatest thing he could do, he has done the very ultimate thing, he has sent his son into the world that's the greatest intervention god could ever have made, it was far greater than, than just intervening in sm , in some small local event, were you see some catastrophe happening and you say well why doesn't god do something there, or there's a war situation going on in some other part of the world, well why doesn't god step in and stop it, god has stepped in, not in a local situation, not in some er passing problem or need but he's stepped into the greatest way possible by sending his son jesus christ into the world to dye for men and woman, to take away sin, to pay the price that god's righteousness demands for sin so god has intervened and his intervention has changed the whole situation, its brought a whole new complexion on things, its changed the colour completely, no longer is the world now under darkness and in, and in pending judgment in doom, because jesus christ came and he took that judgment and that, that condemnation upon himself, he said i've not come to condemn the world he said its already condemned, its already under judgement, the sword of damocles is already hanging over the world and jesus christ came in and to take that judgment and that condemnation on himself and when he died there on the cross and rose again, there came that burst of light in a world that had been shrouded in blackness and darkness, a world that had been shrouded in sin suddenly for the first time sees the light, god has paid for himself the price of sin, god has intervened and changed the whole situation and the message of the gospel is that if you and i allow that intervention to effect us personally, then like those four men surely we too are amazed at what we've found.
if we've come to guard and received forgiveness of sins, if we have become good followers of jesus christ and we are not amazed then there's something wrong with what we've received that god should so love, not just the world, but should so love me, that he gave his son to die for me and that was the sort of er discovery that these four lepers made they've come down there, they've found that the sight before them was amazing, there was no enemy there, the enemy had disappeared and the tents with all their contents were there before them, they were amazed with what they found and you and i when we come to god through jesus christ, we are amazed at what we find, we find forgiveness, we find the restoration of a relationship between ourselves and god, we find an access to receive god's blessing to receive his favour, to receive his gifts that he has for us, no wonder the apostle paul cries out thanks beyond to god for his unspeakable gift, but then again these four men they were not just amazed that what they found, they were, they got absorbed in what they got, because they got a lot more than they bargained for, they possibly in their wildest dreams thought they might at least get, get what the cook was throwing out, they might get to, to the dustbins, they might get what was left over, that would of been great, they were dying of starvation, the driest mouldiest crust would of been like, like a banquet to them, but they got so much more than they anticipated and they got absorbed in it, every thing was there's for the taking as they pulled back the, the flap of the tent as they go in and they see the tables laid out there, they see the food and the drink, they see the plenty, these men who for weeks have known terrible poverty, there might of been a time earlier on in the siege when a few scraps got thrown over the city wall, when the bins were put out the side of the city of an evening, er they would go there and forage amongst them, but all that had stopped long since and it was only the bits and pieces that they managed to forage for themselves and get for themselves that they'd been eating of late, but here every thing is there for the taking, they rubbed their eyes, they pinched one another to make sure their not dreaming, it really is food and drink in a, in an abundance they couldn't of thought of a few mo hours earlier one moment they had nothing, the next they've got every thing, what was it they needed, food, the tables would of been laden with it, it was the food, enough food for an army and there's only four of them, did they, were they thirsty, here was drink, here was wine and, and drink in abundance the rags, the tatters they were dressed in, there were garments and wardrobe full of clothes here for them, did they need money, well the tents were full of the gold and the silver and, and, and valuables, there were a sufficiency, every thing was there you know the idea that the christian life is drab and poor is such a terrible false hood, its an iniquitous lie of the devil, the tragedy is that we have actually often made it that way, we have made the christian faith something drab, something boring, something for old folk er and er you know, people who are, who are, just wanting a crutch because their coming to the end of their natural life and we've made it something drab and dull listen to what the apostle paul says when he's writing to carinthian's in his second letter in chapter eight, he says you know the grace of our lord jesus christ, that though he was rich for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might be rich, god, he's purpose follows his people, he's not that we've a drab, grey, dull uninteresting life, jesus said i've come that you might of life, and that more abundant, that in all its fullness and god has purpose for us, and when paul is talking about riches there, he's not talking about pounds and pence, he's talking about the richness of the life that we enjoy its not a case of not doing this and having to do that the other thing, its a case of enjoying life as god purposes it, as god intends it you know if you don't enjoy your christian life now, let me tell you your in for a rude awakening when you get to heaven, because the quality of life is not gonna change the only things that'll change is its la it, it will, it will be in his presence, the quality of life will not change because already now we have received eternal life, he has given his life to us and he hasn't got some other special, you know, super duper life laid up, there's nothing, there's nothing greater ahead, god hasn't got any thing greater for us than what he's already given to us in embryonic form here and now why if we take on er a, a, a dazzling scintillating new zest and zap when you get to heaven, that life is already given to you and to me know go back to these four men at the moment, they had never known any thing like this before this was better than all their birthdays rolled into one, this was the greatest day in their experience and if they would live to be a hundred they would never know another day like this, they were having a tremendous time, it said they, they, they, they went into one tent, listen to what they did, they went into one tent and they, they ate, they drank, they had a party and they carried from there the silver, the gold and the clothes and they went and hid they returned and entered another tent and then they did the same there, they were having a tremendous time, this was a beano to end all beano's, this was the greatest day in their life, they were having a wonderful time and why shouldn't they, why not you know there are folk who would, who'd want to make us as christians er and er, ee, put us into a straight jacket the bible tells me even the sunsets free, is free indeed and i don't see any suggestions as i read the new testament, that first of all the life of jesus was drab and uninteresting, or that he expects me as his follow to lead a drab, a grey life, oh its not always gonna be a ple an easy life but that doesn't reduce the, the zest and the excitement in it but you see the danger is when having a good time is the reason for living and the only reason for it, you see, if god has intervened in our life, if the message of the gospel is true, if god in christ has taken away your sin and made you in christ a new creation then you have every reason to enjoy life, in a sense your only able to start enjoying life now, you may have enjoyed some of the things that, that folks suggest that make up life, but they've finished, there gone, what happens when the, when, when the wine has run out, what happens when the parties over, you know all about it the next day, don't you, what happens then, its such short lived, its only worth having whilst its coming to you all the time, but that's not so with a christian life, because it doe , depend on just the things that we have or the experiences that we go through, because it is something that, that we have within, it is, it is a quality of life that we possess, because we possess the one who is life himself, listen to what paul says when he's writing to timothy in his first letter in chapter six it is command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant or to put their hope in wealth, those who think that, that er in having possessions that is the secret of life or, or in having a good time and, and, and the rest of it that is what life is all about, he said warn them not to do that, because that is so uncertain, he says but to put their hope in god who richly provides us with every thing what for, for our enjoyment, why has god given us these things, why is, why is god even, he is natural creation there for us, it is for our enjoyment, its not to make us miserable or to make us grey and drab and burden by it, it is for us to enjoy, when god created ada adam and eve and put them in the garden, the, they were told to enjoy it, even the fruit enjoy it, its there for your benefit and then the new creation, every thing that god has provided is there for our enjoyment, but the dangers is when that enjoyment, is the reason for living and that's all we do it for and were so taking up with ourselves, i am gonna have my good time, i'm gonna enjoy myself as a christian and i can do it and you can do it, you become insular and we become introverted and the only thing that matters is me having a good time, my world centres around me and me enjoying myself and me having this and me having that, this blessing and that gift and that other blessing, we become self centred and taken up with our own good times, as long as i can be there in the centre, as long as i can go from, from, from this celebration to that celebration, as long as i can go from this er festival to that festival to this special meeting to that one, i'm gonna have my good time well that was what these fella's were doing, they were going from tent to tent, from celebration to celebration having a great time and then the truth hit them they were ashamed with what they had done, they said to one another we are not doing right, this days a day of good news, but we are keeping silent, if we wait until morning light punishment will overtake us, now therefore, come, let us go and tell the kings household how guilty are we, how guilty are you, how guilty am i of the sinner silence, remember how we started, its not always the things that we do its often the things that we don't do, how guilty are we of the sin of silence these men had known nothing, known poverty and, and, and, and starvation, they were amazed at what they'd found, they'd became absorbed in what they had got and now they'd became ashamed of what they had done with it what was the sin that troubled these men they said we are keeping silent.
back in the city there were thousand of people doomed, dying and all unnecessarily because here was plenty, here was sufficient for the whole city and possibly the greatest sin that you and i can be guilty of and that the church is generally guilty of, but you know when we talk about the church generally its, its so easy because that's general, you and i that are the church, not the denomination, not the organization, it you and i, possibly the greatest sin that we can be guilty of is the sin of silence, i'm not talking now about a rude, belligerent, discourteous, butting hole, button holding of people, i'm not talking about that, i don't see any place in gods word for that sort of attitude or that sort of approach but are we still silent, what about with those with whom we have the right, because we've created a relationship, because they know us and they've seen us and they've seen the experiences we've gone through and they've seen what god has done in our lives, what about with those people do we wait for others to do it, shifting the responsibility.
thinking in, in, in the context of our, of our mission, this town wide mission, well that's billy's job, he's better at it than i am, but its not his job, its my job as much as its his and its your job as much as its mine, we do not well to keep silent these men they were troubled by their sin of silence, perhaps you and i should be troubled by our sin of silence because the extension of that, and here's the really great thing, as far as they were concerned, the ex the, the ongoing because they were troubled by their sin of silence and they did something about it, they were thrilled at the sight that they saw, as they see the city being delivered, and as they see starving men and women eating food perhaps for the first time in days or weeks, buying good wholesome food at a reasonable price, that was the sigh that thrilled them and you can imagine them, and i think they'd be entitled to a little bit of pride that i'm glad we told them, i'm glad we went back and shared the news apart from any thing we couldn't of coped with all ourselves, it would of been so wrong to of kept it, it would of been so wrong just to of eaten it ourselves, i'm glad we went back and told them.
jesus said just before he was living his disciples, his followers, you and me, he said you shall receive power after the holy spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me yes we witness by our life but there's a danger in making that a cop out, because one other requirement of a witness is that they talk, they've gotta say what they know, these four men were good witnesses, they went back and they told the city what they had found, and there's placed upon you and me that responsibility to go back and to tell what we've found, this is a day of good tidings, we do wrong to keep silent.
my name is les , i work for wiltshire county council.
what follows is a meeting of the wiltshire county council's policy and resources committee held on tuesday twenty-fifth january 1994.
on the agenda is membership changes.
since the last meeting the following have ceased to be members of this committee.
mr , mr , mrs , mr , mr , and have been replaced by mr , mr , mrs , mr , mrs .
membership of the committee today is therefore mr , mr , mrs , mr , mr , mrs , miss , miss , mr , mrs , mr , mrs , mr , mr , mr , colonel , mrs , mrs , mr , mr , mr , mr , mrs , mr , mr .
second item on the agenda is election of chairman could i have nominations please .
mr 
is there a seconder for mr ?
are there any other nominations?
mr is elected chairman 
yeah, look yeah, i'm just yeah, yeah 
the next item is the election of vice chairman erm, do you wish to defer this item?
anybody not?
that is deferred.
next item is apologies
no apologies
item five chairman's announcement, there are two.
number one is british national corpus, members will have received a letter from the chief executive enclosing details about the british national corpus, the b n c have sought permission to tape the wiltshire county council's committee meeting, and it was suggested to them and they have agreed to tape today's proceedings.
i hope no member objects to the recordings, but if anyone does the recording will not take place.
is everyone agreeable to the recording of today's proceedings?
aye
are there any against?
that is agreed.
second announcement is the victoria county history exhibition, i wish to bring to members attention bring members attention to the victoria county history exhibition currently taking place in the old county hall foyer.
i hope members will find time to visit this exhibition which is on today, tomorrow and thursday.
item six attendance of non- members of the committee.
mr in respect of item seventeen the environmental strategy
thank you.
item seven, members allowances, cash limits.
erm i'll like to deal with this in a if possible in a number of separate motions so that we can deal with the various bits of work that need to be done, but i'll call mr first
thank you chair, erm, in likelihood that i, i mean you may wish to these separately as well but i'll group wish to see, is to, a is to approve an extension of the maximum aggregate by five per cent, b officers continue to monitor expenditure reporting to group leaders monthly and c officers and group leaders look into the allowance scheme to see if any suitable alterations need to be made.
yes, erm, i had in mind that, is there a seconder to that?my own view is that erm, and that goes for most of the way for dealing with the problem, but i think it would be appropriate for this committee to make it clear that erm, any extension of the maximum aggregate for the current financial year will be met by an appropriate reduction or a corresponding reduction in the expenditure for ninety four ninety five, erm and i'm not certain that that's absolutely clear to the public or indeed to all members of 
chair 
as you say it is legally required
i mean if, if, if, if the principal of the five per cent is acceptable then if you wish to qualify the being put in from the words you said then that is acceptable by the labour group.
okay, but i just wanted to go on to say that i think in reviewing how the budget may be brought more closely under control in the coming year, officers will need to look at the erm size of the committees because we are working with committees at the moment that are larger than those committees which used to exist when this year's budget was set and that has had some impact and we need to have the implications of any change of committee size whether that might affect the budget, how that would affect the budget, also whether there is any potential for reducing the number of committees further and also whether the rates might be changed, i particularly would like officers to report on what, whether there would be any significant saving from er setting the rates at the round figures they were at a couple of years ago erm 
ten pound and twenty pound and twenty-five pound which apart from anything else i found easier to remember when filling out a form, but i think that may think it's not worth doing.
i think the most important thing is to make clear, i'm hoping to make clear somewhere that next year this council will have a members allowance budget which is one and a half percent more than this year, at the maximum, and it may not even have that i'm not certain that we've agreed that with the policy committee, i don't know if anybody knows if we have
yes
we have, well i would erm, let's see how do we do this, we've got a motion on the floor, erm, anybody else?
mr 
chairman i have an amendment to that motion, because, because i believe it's important that we start to identify a lot of councils publish at the end of the year for public consumption a list of the allowances drawn by members, and i think that would be very useful and i would make, as an amendment, i would, would add to the proposal put by mr that we call for a report to be pu er, to be presented to us of the amounts of allowances drawn by members, each member
would you accept that, that should be for the financial year ?
more than happy chairman that, that, that it should be that
can i, can i, if i, if there's a second can i 
speak to my 
i view with considerable concern erm, what has happened since may, in, in the field of allowances.
over the last few years the members allowances have been reduced, er, er have been underspent quite considerably on the amount that's been allowed.
each year the amount has gone up by inflation, and yet we see something approaching thirty thousand underspent on previous years, and here we are looking in the first year of this council to a, a, at least a five percent overspend and er, i wonder if we've erm, excluded the time when there weren't many meetings at the beginning if we wouldn't have seen a considerably larger overspend.
i'm, in my own mind, i'm sure this is due to a proliferation of working parties, extra committee meetings a ,a , and seminars, and i personally think it's typical of when your party get anywhere near control that there is always more talking and less action, but i do believe that we ,we , we're, we are not looking good in the eyes of the public in this overspending of our own allowances.
i think you've got to do something drastic, at the end of last year a considerable number of working parties and committees were actually reduced or eliminated, and i look at education and i look at the sub- committees of education, they've all been replaced by working parties now that meet more and more regularly.
we can't go on paying ourselves that sort of money, we can't go on, and mr i know in a minute we'll talk about the number of people who attend committee meetings erm and sit in on them, and that's increased considerably, erm, so i think it's important that we do get down to this problem, we grasp the nettle, and i, i believe that will mean that we start to look seriously at reducing the number of times members come and talk here, and perhaps we let the officers get on with the action that they should be getting on with
thank you chairman, erm, i've heard what mr said then i think it is worth reminding ourselves that a significant number of members of this council are new to this council and it's therefore quite right and proper that in the first year of the business of this council that there should be a significant number of seminars and briefings to enable members to fully acquaint themselves with the business of the council the working of the er, operations of this council so that we can in fact make informed decisions er in the future.
i entirely accept that if er, four years on we were still doing the same thing that then they'd be er, some erm, requirement for er, cutting back but i think it is also worth reminding ourselves that due to the action of this conservative government in er, forcing the local government review, er, we are facing the spectre er, of an additional full meeting of this council, and indeed we have had to er, respond to that government initiative.
so it's by no means only er, arising from the erm, need to get on with the business of the council, some of the work that we're facing at the present moment has been forced on us er, through no fault of our own because of government action.
thank you chairman, i, i second er 's motion, erm trying to be not political about this i got some figures from the er county council which indicate that from the first of april ninety-two to the thirty-first of december ninety-two eighty-six members attended committee meetings of which they were not members.
from the first of april ninety-three to the thirty-first of december ninety-three, that figure is a hundred and sixty-five, so therefore it, it, it's doubled in effect.
now if you assume that they were paid somewhere between a half-day allowance and a full-day allowance, you're probably looking at somewhere up towards fifteen hundred pounds.
now there are occasions where members legitimately need to attend committees to speak to something in which they have an interest but the difficulty is, that in the past when we had permanent chairman, a member who wanted to attend the meeting had to ask the permission of that permanent chairman and there are occasions when that permanent chairman thought, well, there is no need for that member to attend and he has said no.
in the present situation, the officers find themselves in a very difficult position, i cannot imagine an officer saying no to a member and this is what has happened if we run out of money, then the very thing that we are seeking to do, in other words to implement the democratic process to allow people to come to meetings and speak will go by the way, and i can remember some time ago when i was a new member on here saying i would be prepared to attend property sub-committee briefings as a deputy and not be paid and i was very smartly brought up by a friend in the labour group who said that's all right for you, you can afford it, but it's not alright for some of us 'cause we can't. and the difficulty is if we run out of money and we either have to stop the allowances or we have to slash the allowances, yeah, knows who it was, we have to slash the allowances, then legitimately people will be able to say that the democratic process is being stifled because they are not going to be allowed to go to meetings, and therefore, i think that situations whereby a member attends to speak to a, an item, a specific item and then stays on for a double length meetings and claims double length allowances that sort of thing has got to be stopped, and also members attending just to nod approval at something that has happened that they've been associated with, that should stop, if they want to come they should come at their own expense.
but if we're not careful, the real people, the real people who should be are going to be the losers, because they would not be able to draw the attendance allowance which they need to attend.
so, i mean what i'm saying is that i think we should have a league table if you like of, of attendances, i, i recognise that that may not be popular, but i think it's going to be one way of sorting out those people who attend every opportunity, and sometimes just to pat an officer on the back.
this is not something that attendances allowance should be, should be used to pay for, and i think that unless we look at it very carefully indeed, and we perhaps get around to having a proper chairman for each committee instead of this sort of er, bugginses chart er, we're going to be faced with, with lots of difficulties.
i wish you two lots over there would get your act together so that people who chair the meetings were of the right calibre for a chairman and not just because it was their turn.
hear hear
yes, let's not open up the debate about chairmanship of meetings er, got a couple more people 
yes, thank you chairman.
obviously one of the er, critical things is actually reduce the er, length of time at meetings, er, with that in mind i'll be very quick.
unclear 
as i say when you become a councillor you do not do it for money, i mean i think probably to be a better reason to become a councillor these days.
it affects your job, your job prospects, your family life and the hidden costs, such as letters, telephone calls leaflets and the rest of it, you do not do it for money.
you seem to be sort of trying to encourage a guilt complex by this, this idea put forward by the conservatives, which is not the case, people should not feel guilty in trying to do the benefit that they can to benefit the people of wiltshire.
and i also don't think that there's any need for this extra recommendation in most commonwave that a question, and that is to actually find out the expenses claim by individuals.
written question or shall we give them a written answer?
there's no need to actually to put it down as a recommendation that stays forever more, there's just no need for it.
the other things i'd like to put forward is the things that mr actually put forward, the idea of reducing committee sizes, reducing committee numbers.
perhaps maybe a cut off time for when a meeting should finish, which i think we'd all dearly love, maybe that very common in business, maybe it's about time we put it into council life as well, so those of progress, not trying to make people feel guilty but trying to serve the people they represent.
mr 
mr chair.
erm, i seem to find myself in this committee in a minority of one.
it's a little like listening to those debates in parliament where parliament vote themselves extra salaries and i feel very uncomfortable in this process, i thought i might be coming here this morning to disagree with my own group, or those members of them that don't agree with me, perhaps joined with the conservatives in opposing this motion, but i find in fact that everybody is saying oh let's put up the er, the heading, i feel very uncomfortable with this having spent six months in the budget review, criticising officers up hill and down dale every time that they exceeded their budget, having told them that either they balance their budget or that they came in next year with a budget with no more than a one and a half percent increase, or their successors would be doing it for us.
i feel very uncomfortable therefore, to sit in a room full of members, sitting here proposing to add five percent to the limit for members allowances, simply because we've been unable to control our own behaviour, and to come in within that, i think it's a very poor example, and it's an example that i'm not prepared to set.
i am going to vote against the motion, i'm disappointed with the liberal group not come in with a more constructive amendment or even a proposal, as i would say asked you to do.
i'm even more disappointed in the conservatives, for not opposing it, i don't object to their list of members being published, i don't see that that would do any harm, as far as i'm concerned, every employee could have their wages printed up on the wall.
we are elected by the public to do a job and we shouldn't be ashamed of the amount of money that we're paid for it, and what i would say is, that no manifesto in may's election said we were going to come here and vote for more money for members, nobody put on their leaflets, vote for me and i will raise members allowances by five percent in the coming year, i didn't and i won't support that, and you will argue, perhaps some of you that that's not really what we're doing, but it look's like it, doesn't it?
and i think it's close enough to looking like it that the public may believe it, and i hope the public won't believe it, but certainly i'm not prepared to allow them to think it of me, and therefore i will vote against the motion.
okay, mr 
thank you mr chairman, just one point mr , we're not voting ourselves five percent more, we're taking five percent off next year's allowance and putting it to this one so it's a negative rollover, so we're actually spending some of next year's money this year.
the point i'm going to make is that erm, if we aren't going to get through the year and we're all going to have to take a percentage of our march allowances because the money's run out and we're cash limited even if we give ourselves five percent extra, erm, could i get an assurance from the officers that the people that haven't put in their forms will get a note to remind them to do so, so that everybody is in there, you won't suddenly find that because you haven't had your claim form in by the fourteenth you're gonna get nothing and everybody else is gonna get something.
thank you, i think actually we've been debating mr 's amendment which seems to have widespread approval and i was ready to put that to the vote.
mr 
i was just going to settle up to you, that was it.
i think that just a few points that needs to be made.
first of all i think at the end of the day that we all know a democracy never comes cheap, it's erm, there are cheaper alternatives for administering decisions, but erm, but dictatorship doesn't go well and therefore democracy will never come cheap.
i do agree that there are some particular areas this year that are for concern.
there has been, i think has put it adequately very well, that there are members who've turned up really for no real reason but to speak on a minor item which members of their group could've taken on their behalf, and therefore erm, i, i do support that we need to look at that particular issue, and i think that can be dealt with under the present chairs arrange arrangement without having to have permanent chairs.
i also support the proposal to have a list published, i know who's gonna be top of the list, it's possibly going to be me, and i'm not ashamed of that so erm,let's go ahead and do it, 'cause it is public money, and the public have a right to know where that money's going, so i'm not ashamed of that.
i think that also that said to me at the point that there is, people need to er, be paid attendance because otherwise you deny people the opportunity to be able to stand for council,there , otherwise you are going to end up with those that are either rich or retired as the only people who can attend a council which , and therefore we must remember that and make sure those who want to have the opportunity to participate in local government are actually compensated for their, for their erm, for their work.
okay, taking a vote on mr 's amendment, which is to ask officers to publish a list of allowances claimed, i think that's all allowances, but not presum , not necess , and including travel and subsistence.
okay, not travel.
for the years ninety-one two, ninety-two-three, ninety-three- four 
those in favour of that amendment please show.
., and the against?
and that is carried, before taking the motion 
amendment which i hope will financial control which is that the of financial services shall have no discretion to accept claims for the financial year ninety-three ninety-four, submitted after the thirtieth of june nineteen-ninety- four, that effectively means that that two month rule which he does have discretion on he will not have in the case of late claims in this financial year, that means we'll know exactly what the figures are, by the thirtieth of june.
can i put that, does anybody want to debate that?
i thought actually we had a standing order already that claims had to be in within a certain time limit
yes, yes
and i believe that, that three months is the time limit
two months
two months but he had discretion 
well, oh i see you're removing the discretion,ke 
in this particular case we're removing that discretion to try and tie the year down.
right, well, well debated,
do you want to speak on that?
yes i would if i may.
can i just reassure mr that if actually we were not, er, if we were discussing an increase in members allowances then i would be fair square with him.
we're in a position where we're going to borrow a bit from next year, that actually puts the pressure on as i see it's about nine or ten thousand extra this year, the allowance is about a hundred and eighty thousand, the total, erm, we're adding nine or ten thousand to that, we're taking it off it for next year, so we've already got ourselves something like an eighteen to twenty thousand reduction in members allowances next year so the pressure is on to resolve the problem, and er, perhaps mr might feel that actually that extra pressure might make us resolve it.
i got the dates wrong, it's the thirtieth of may that's two months after the end, so the amendment i'm moving
thank you, er, mr 
on the amendment, on the amendment, as you're seeking to amend standing orders, is this committee able to do that?
i think the particular point about the two month rule which may be extended at the discretion of the director, which obvious taking his discretion away, i don't think that's a standing order
yeah, i, i don't think it's a standing order sir, i think its part of erm, i'm just trying to find it, it's part of the member's allowances, and this committee is charged with dealing with member's allowances.
can i put that to the vote?say aye
aye
well now, i think and i think we may i would say that erm, i improving the qualified budget as well,but there's no doubt , i put the motion to the vote, those in favour please show
aye
and the against
.
agenda item eight mr 's appointment to the sub-committee of the west regional association with deaf, for the deaf, should be an approved duty for the payment of travelling and subsistence allowances only.
on the grounds that this is erm, now appropriately remote from the county council's work.
mr .
yes chairman, i think that before you phrased that motion you might have enquired as to the circumstances of this, and, and everything that surrounds it.
er, it is not just an additional committee, on the part of the west region, it is in fact the total reorganisation of a number of meetings, and getting down to a far more business-like thing.
erm, in the past, the constitution of the west region association has allowed for it's council to meet twice a year, one of those was an a g m, and for an executive committee to meet four times a year.
the representation is three people per authority, it could be three members, sometimes it's two members and an officer.
very few counties apart from wiltshire have ever actually sent three.
most of those have attended at an a g m once a year.
the membership of an executive, has been one member from each county.
i've served on that one, and the whole business of the organisation has generally speaking been run by the executive and not by a full council.
therefore there's been no real problem on this one as far as allowances.
that has now decided that it will have one meeting of it's council a year which will be it's a g m, it has not for the moment elected an executive committee.
it has put in it's place, a, er a general purposes and finance sub- committee, this is this one referred to, it has not made allowances for who shall serve on it per county, all it did, it called it together very quickly, and to cut costs to authorities, it's based the meetings in bristol instead of exeter, and it was suggested by the chairman of w r a d, that perhaps any volunteers coming onto it, erm, would in fact come from the surrounding counties.
now, the, the membership of this particular, er, special purposes committee if you like, erm is the core officers and three other members, and they called for volunteers, and one came from avon, one came from dorset, put his name forward from wiltshire.
now i am one of the officers on there which gives two members from wiltshire a seat on this particular committee.
however, we have no executive committee, and we have only one other meeting a year, erm, if you, i, i would like you to suggest that if you accept this restructuring of er, the organisation, and the fact that the members will not be attending other meetings during the year, you might see fit to allow the attendance allowance on this particular sub-committee.
thank you, er mr that was, was quite, erm, was quite informative, very.
i just wanted to check what the position of the old executive committee of the w r a d which been appointed, whether that was in fact erm, something that qualified for a full allowance.
miss 
yeah, but, i mean i was just, erm, i found that very informative as well, i was very disappointed that if that much money er, information was available that we were not given it as members, because it would have made decision making far more sensible, but erm,
i as an amendment as i am involved in the attendance allowance .
er, i must, i always claim the attendance allowance when it has been as executive, as i've been the one member from wiltshire attending.
whenever there's been officers get together, then w r a d itself paid for my travelling expenses and i have never claimed that from the authority, as i didn't believe that was proper.
but as the organisation has seen to be when it meets generally speaking, the council and the executive are one and the same dealing with exactly the same business, i've considered it a meeting of the organisation, and the organisation now basically is going to be the seven sub-committee plus an annual general meeting of it's full council.
miss 
well, i mean, i think, er from, i mean certainly i don't know how you feel chairman, but my view of this has changed if what mr says is correct, then it seems that this seems, that this is the, the basic sort of day to day decision making erm, group, erm, and far more central to the purposes of w r a d than previously appeared, and there would seem to me therefore to be some case of paying an attendance allowance or else erm, deferring the decision erm, until we have even more information, but i think, if it really is the, the, the sort of decision making bit then attendance allowance ought to be paid.
who seconds
i'm, i'm happy to second 
members please show and the against.
the members say aye
aye
against 
attendance allowances for members, i would move that er, a scheme be commenced from the first of april ninety-four, and that the wording attached to the paper, be altered in two respects,in place of the phrase is a person over sixty-nine years of age, the words is an elderly person, and more significantly at the end of paragraph four, and normally lives with a member as part of the member's family and be able to be left at th , be unable to be left unsupervised, be added, and that er, power to delegate a director of financial to amend the rates of allowances from time to time rates of attendance allowance for members, and that the scheme be met from the overall member's allowance to which we recently referring.
okay, miss 
erm, yes, well i'm very glad you've moved the amendments about the scheme.
i don't quite know what's, what happened, because i remember very well amending these details the last time it came to policy and resources, and that was agreed, because the changes you have made use the working, wording of the thamesdown scheme, it seems to me far better, erm, as you have moved it, because er, very many people who are elderly, who are sixty-nine years or more or less don't need any supervision at all.
erm, indeed some eighty ninety year olds don't need any supervision, on the other hand some people in their early sixties may need to be looked after, and, you know, i don't fancy the idea of anybody being able to claim allowances because they've fit granny, erm, on the other hand anybody who needs to ought to be able to, and i think this wording secures that.
thank you chairman.
erm, i, i shall oppose er, your motion erm, on on two grounds.
erm, firstly, we are looking at carers for employees, and we're unlikely to come up with very much, because we haven't got much money to do it.
and yet we are seeing as members, coming back to mr 's point, making a, setting an example which is opposite to that which we force on our employees.
and the other one is financial.
if members allowances are a hundred and eighty thousand this year which is somewhere around there, mr may correct me but i think i'm not too far out, we've already upped those this year to a hundred and eighty- nine, so next year there'll be a hundred and seventy-one and the thirteen thousand cost of this will reduce it to a hundred and fifty-eight i actually don't think that is possible, we can't afford it within the terms of of the present set up, unless someone's going to dramatically reduce the length and the number of meetings in this council, which i think is highly unlikely, i think we've got to set a good example to our employees, i think that this would give completely the wrong message.
we're looking after ourselves, er, but we're not prepared to look after them, and, i'm afraid i have to oppose it.
i'll just make a humorous point, i've got a sick dog, but i see that isn't er, covered.
yeah, well,, mr .
what point in having, i suppose it's my fault, i should have read these erm, bits added to it more carefully earlier, but it doesn't seem to have anything in their about anybody who is actually claiming a carer's allowance from looking after somebody at the time, and whether we should have a phrase in there that it doesn't include anybody that is collecting from the d s s s or anything else for a carer's allowance anyway, because you don't want to double pay anybody.
mr 
thank you chair.
i'm slightly disappointed in erm, 's attitude, especially his last comment, even though i'm sorry to hear that he's got a sick dog at the moment.
erm, i know that for many, that people will find this very helpful.
i believe there's two aspects to this.
there's the firstly that of young children, and it's something that i remember putting a motion to in the last administration about a creche or whatever or looking into this facility, in the fact of erm, trying to encourage more people with young families to erm, actually get involved in local government and politics.
but i think there's also the other end of the scale which is, which is what, you've slightly amended this year, is the fact of elderly people erm, i know recently that myself have gone through the fact of my gran had er, was going through a very sick period, and if she'd have come back home, it would have been very difficult for me to have had to look after her at the same time as trying to attend my council duties, and this would have been the same for my dad, and the additional income which this would have brought, to have paid someone to be able to look after her whilst we were at council meetings, and you can remember that these meetings sometimes go on, you can say well, this meeting should be over by one o'clock then it goes on till three o'clock or whatever, and then peop , the problems mount up for that person left on their own, and i think that those things have to be taken into consideration, and i believe that this is the first step forward in trying to recognise that people have responsibilities outside of the council chamber.
thank you, mr 
thank you very much mr chairman, i would like to endorse what mr has said, erm, i assume that this carer's allowance is aimed primarily er, at er, women with dependant children.
erm, and i feel very strongly, and i urge members to consider that we should support this as a matter of principle, to help er, that group of our society, i me , i was going to suggest an amendment that we ask for the average age of this council erm,
to be published along with the expense claims?
yes, to be published along with the expense claims.
although joking apart i urge members to support this on principle, i think we should put this in and then it will have to be considered next year, how, where the money will, will come from, and i think that we should establish it that married women with dependant children will get some allowance to help them to stand and represent their communities.
thank you.
sorry,i'd better re ,re , er remove the word married, women with dependent children should be helped to represent their communities.
thank you.
yes, i'd p , i would personally prefer the word people or parents 
no, i, i, i, just, just a cover note, i think it's quite true that this is one of the small steps one can make to make it a little bit more possible for people with dependents to take a full part in local government, and the majority of the people who are excluded at the moment are in practise erm, women with dependent children, but there are many other people including men, and including people with dependent elderly relatives, and i think we need to make it the rule rather than the exception that local government has a carer's allowance scheme.
i'm confident that the scheme won't cost anything like as much as the estimate, but i'm, i'm sure it's right that it's been, having having done some background work to see how many people might claim it i'm confident that that we've erred on the safe side here by a substantial amount, and that's why i'm sure it can be met from the overall budget.
but i would agree with mr , that it does add a further pressure, it means we have to have a real review of erm, how we pay allowances in order to stay within our budget limit, which i think is two hundred and two thousand for the current year, and erm, a little bit more for next year, according to the previous paper.
did you want to come in mr ?
thank you chairman.
erm, i, i wanted to pick up the point mrs said, i, i don't think this will necessarily this will be one of those allowances which people will er, claim on a regular basis.
er, i am mindful chairman that i embarrassed you acutely at the end of education meeting on friday, erm,and i know that i, i have a circumstance coming up in february, where i have a child who is unexpectedly on a training day, erm, on a day where i actually have two meetings of this council, now either i get substituted, or we arrange for a one off carer situation.
now i'm not for a mom , i'm not for a moment suggesting that it's something that would be picked up on a regular basis, but i think it does mean, as you rightly say, that er, if, if, if such a procedure does arise then i'm conscious that i'm in a one off situation, i know there's at least one of our colleagues on our benches who has this on, with children on a more regular basis.
erm, i i think we will encourage er, people with dependants to play a more active role in the er, business of this council and in, i think it is something that is worth er, considering and it is worth carrying forward.
i, i'm very sad to learn that the committee may not fee , feel quite so constrained to assist er, employees.
i think er, we need to er, look at this issue of carers far more rigorously, and i'm very sad that the government, having made a great play about back to basics and er, encouraging family values, erm, are not in fact prepared er, to do something to er, alleviate unemployment by encouraging employers to make adequate provision to ensure that people with dependants can actually work.
okay, i'll put the motion to the vote, those in favour please show,and the against.
that is carried.
nine one, supplementary capital estimates of the magistrates court,
letter circulated this morning from officers to amend the figure, i think all members should have had that and i will move that a capital supplementary estimate of fifty-five thousand and four pounds be approved for expenditure on the magistrate's court services described in the report and in the letter circulated this morning.
chairman you've got to allow me because by the time i've finished you won't be able to stop me, er, but i mean if there's a lot of money floating about in this area then i think that er, some committee or other should be looking at the the refurbishment of the courts in devizes which are a disgrace, and partly the fault of this council when th they were allowed to get into such a state, and i mean at some stage or other, something or else is gonna to have to happen to them and i would hope that the magistrates in their wisdom in some committee or other are, are deciding to take these courts back into use.
thank you mr .
we don't have much control over what the magistrate's court committee do, as we could tell from our efforts to appeal against the closure of some other magistrate's courts erm, anybody else on this subject, i'll put this to the vote, really since it's a technicality.
it's a pure technicality, mr chairman, but i did ask at the previous meeting er, that the erm, director of property services respond to me on a matter relating to wootton bassett magistrate's court, if we have such a large amount of money that we can spend i think the questions that i posed then, er are relevant and i would appreciate a reply.
er, mr erm, i think your point is covered in the next item on the agenda where there is a reference to to twenty-five thousand included the ninety-three four budget for wootton bassett.
can i put this to the vote?
those in favour please show and the against that is agreed.
nine two, you have a paper from the, which is a copy of the paper th , that the director of financial services submitted to the magistrate's court committee management board, a response from the magistrate's courts management board for the county council erm, i will move to note the response of the magistrate's courts committee and to confirm our previous recommendation to the county council regarding this part of the policy resources committee budget.
those in favour please say aye.
aye
and the against that is carried.
item ten, which i think is the probations committee budget i will move to accept the probations committee's budget and to agree an increased county council contribution of twenty-six thousand pounds.
aye
i see nobody wishing to speak, those in favour please show any against?
that is agreed.
right,for the next item members will need to note the statements from the joint trade unions liaison committee and the non-domestic rate-payers group and to find item twenty-one two today's papers, the minutes of the budget review sub-committee, meeting held on the eighteenth of january, agenda item twenty-two brackets one.
there's a recommendation from the budget review sub-committee for us to deal with, at er, minute seven, little at the bottom of page two.
the fifth paragraph of that has the proposed council tax bands the county council services but these have been amended by a letter you've been sent dated the twenty- first of january, as a result of information from council regarding their tax base.
and i will move from the chair to recommend the county council, erm, as shown on page three, that is to say paragraphs little one, little two, little three, little four and little five with the amended band figures.
and i would like to say thank you to the people who sit on the budget review sub- committee, a committee which actually i don't attend as often as i probably ought to, particularly to the labour spokesperson , for the way he's guided the committee, both from within the chair and at other times, on it's work this year, to be able to propose a budget which erm, so well fulfils the aims that many of us had when we were elected in may, which were of course, to maintain services, er, to squeeze efficiency out of the sy into the system and squeeze any waste out, and to get our officers working towards zero base budgets.
and to a very large degree, that has been erm, achieved, and i think that erm, the prospects for the county council for ninety-four five are now much better than they appeared to be a year ago, and er, i think the prospects for ninety-five six will need to be looked at through the budget review sub-committee and this committee at an early stage, and i'm sure that the workman-like way in which it's addressed it's business is a good sign for the future.
i would like to thank all the members erm, who've served on that committee and indeed the officers who've worked for it, because a lot of the background work and a lot of the er, consultation with departments has been necessary to get us to the erm, reasonably satisfactory stage we're at, considering the ext extremely severe restrictions on government ex , er, on local government spending, er resulting from the cap.
that's inspired a few hands.
i'll take mr .
you're getting me worried.
you praised two of my members on friday, another one today, you after them or something?
can i thank you for those generous comments that you say towards er,, i think they're totally true, he's worked extremely hard in making sure this council has a budget which balanced, and it's due to his expertise and bullying tactics that we've succeeded, and he should be fully congratulated for that, and i think it's the determination of those who were elected in may as well, to make sure that we protected services and jobs, and, and make sure that we actually carried out the mandate which the electors elected us to do that we have such ach achieved what we have achieved today.
er, mr .
thank you chairman.
i, i er, you would not expect me to continue with the euphoria which you were trying to create earlier, and er, i have to say that i suppose that you wouldn't er, be proposing any different budget to this would you, in the circumstances that you've got.
but we wouldn't be starting at that, at the point that you did because we did not, would not have spent the approaching five million that you spent in the first er, month or two of this council.
we note that you have addressed the problem on social services in your re in your erm, proposal, er and that we we're grateful for.
we were faced, as you reminded me with a projected twenty-four million pound shortfall.
that projection of course took into account the fact that you'd raised the base and therefore you had extra money to find.
but when you look carefully at where that twenty-four million disappeared to, you start to find the problems with your budget.
there was a six million pound erm, er difference on the s a assumption.
there was an assumption that inflation would be higher than it was and that was cut back to one point five percent, which i think that i would actually support was a sensible way forward.
but there was a costed projection of eleven point two million in that, you're not funding that eleven point two million projection , and we need to look underneath, to what that means, and that means that you're not funding schools, and that is particularly secondary schools, to the extent of a one million pound shortfall because the increase in pupil numbers.
now we'll here very quickly from people who say that we've devolved more money to schools.
we've devolved the money to schools, but they've got to spend most of it back with the council here.
what the thing of course is, and we all know what it is, it's an effort to penalise those secondary schools who've gone grant maintained, but they don't get the extra money, they get a hundred pound a pupil less.
don't shake your head mr , read the letters that are coming to me, from those schools like who can see the reduction in their budget next year.
look at the police budget, and we shall be discussing the police budget later on, you had a windfall, underspend on police pensions, but we all know those police will retire at some time or other, and when they do there is a commitment to their lump sum payments and their pensions.
you've had a bit of luck there, you might turn the other way next year, and you might find that you've got an increased number of police retiring, and if you have, you're going to find extreme pressure on the police budget, and you will see that there is the reductions that the chief constable told you he would have to make if that happened.
you're already short short-funding the police budget without that factor as well.
you've got a reduction in this budget of three and three quarter million pounds on highway maintenance.
that actually is an awful lot of roads that are not going to be maintained in the coming year.
you've reduced highway maintenance from six point two million down to er, er, a figure of two point five.
that's jobs, that's where you you say you want to support the private sector and the building trade to bring more jobs.
that's an awful lot of jobs in that, that aren't going to be in wiltshire next year because you've reduced it, and it's also a considerable reduction in the standard of our roads.
i will be reminding you as the year goes on, and the other items of pain start to appear in the budget that you would think you have so cleverly put together and that with no problems.
we will continue here reminding you mr chairman, we will be opposing the budget that you have presented.
mr 
thank you chairman.
er, first point, i'm not absolutely certain, when you moved your proposal, you moved from budget review, the clauses one to five.
i'm not sure that you also removed clauses c, d and e from the order paper, and if you haven't i'll so move.
thank you, i'll accept that amendment.
members are clear what mr spotted which is that in addition to the from budget review, we also need to agree some er, effectively some delegations in c, d and e, of the recommendation laid out in pages two and three of the main agenda.
i think that's what mr 's moved as an amendment, and i'm happy to accept that, so that forms part of 
thank you chairman.
i mean,wha what i would like to go on and say is, that er, which the change of administration it has been necessary to er, adopt a different way of, of developing the budget, and i think you're quite right to erm, pay credit to the effort of the er, budget review er, sub-committee.
i think we also need to recognise that there has also been a er, high level of er, commitment from er, officers employed by this council to achieving the changes that we have asked in terms of financial management, now i'm not going to pretend for a moment that er, we've gone all the way there yet.
but i think in the few months that this administration has er, has been in office, it is encouraging to see that the county council is operating inside the budget, er, which i believe was actually set by the previous administration, erm, er over which we had no influence whatsoever.
now clearly, we're not going to pretend that there aren't going to be problems in the future that we may have to address.
not least i think the er, if if the government find themselves faced with much higher pay er, settlements erm, as a result of the deliberations of the pay revue bodies.
i for one will be most curious to see how the chancellor of the exchequer wriggles out of that particular i issue.
but nonetheless, i think we as county councillors can be proud of the fact that we have set a spending target for committees, we are prepared to allow the officers to manage their departments inside the targets that have been set, and that does mean that they have to look at er, what they're spending and create priorities, and and i as a councillor am not in the least bit impressed by arguments that paper clips have increased by five and a half percent this year, and that felt l er pe felt line erm, pens have gone up by seventeen and a half percent, i think that's largely irrelevant consideration, we're not in the business of projecting budget, we're in the business of providing money to deliver high quality services to the people of wiltshire.
i think the people of wiltshire recognise that we have been able to set a budget that enables all the departments to have more money in real terms to spend on delivery of service for next year, and i think that's something that we can some credit in, and i think it does reflect a new partnership between councillors, officers and those that are delivering services to the public across the county.
thank you, er mr .
thank you mr chairman.
it might not surprise you that it's the highways budget that concerns me.
erm, i think it's a false economy to cut on maintenance, you only leave trouble there, you're putting off the problem for our successors.
the young people following us will have to pay for our mistakes if we cut on maintenance now.
and i do, i'm more concerned with the lack of capital in maintenance that'll we'll, we're going to have on the roads and infrastructure this year, i think there's always a reason to put a little bit of capital maintenance into both our buildings and our roads.
it needs to be done now and it's going to cost us more if we leave it till later, on that point i can't agree with your budget, so, i'm afraid, it's roads that put me against it.
well i will just come in here because i think mr wants to get his figures a bit more accurate.
i don't think even in our wildest dreams we managed to spend an extra five million in the first few weeks of this council, i remember a couple of million going into schools and few hundred thousand for voluntary organizations, and er, and old people's homes.
but the other figure i think he's, he'll have to recheck is his figure on highways structural maintenance, because in fact two and a half million's in the base budget and one and a half million's in the approved list of thirty-seven bids at at er, priority number two.
it seems to me entirely up to him, if he so wished, and his group, if they felt there needed to be more money spent on highways structural maintenance to have moved other bids up to priority order when discussing the capital budget.
and i do think it's unfortunate when people try and confuse capital and revenue expenditure, in order to try and er, support their own rather weak political position.
erm, but it's impressive that he now feels we should be allowed to spend more money to create jobs, because of course a lot of us have been trying to point that out for years to the governments which stupidly cap authorities so they can't actually carry out the infrastructure improvements that are needed to enable the economy and the society to function properly.
i'll call mr to .
thank you chair, thank you particularly for your kind words, they are appreciated.
erm, doesn't a lot change in a year really, or even in six months.
in may, mr and his group had the opportunity to vote with us in spending another two million pounds on the education system of this county, and now he is complaining only six months later, that we aren't spending enough, and i think we've said before, the conservatives have, and continue to have the opportunity for action, but they will not support their words with deeds.
erm, we've seen it also through the budget process, where all the way through, and it's been a very open process, we have no alternative proposals from the conservative group, they have complained and have criticized but they have offered no alternatives.
this morning they offer no alternatives other than to spend more.
i mean it might as well be perhaps, i don't know, lambeth council in the nineteen-seventies that they are representing, along with john major there.
they're simply asking for more money to spent with no concerns about the value for money, and surely it was the conservatives who used to tell us ten or fifteen years ago, that you couldn't judge the quality of a service by the amount of money spent on it.
the fact that we are providing the services for wiltshire, that they were providing, and we're providing them for less money, is surely something to be applauded.
we all know that the task we've set the officers is to manage within the budgets they've been given, and to have no cuts in services, and no compulsory redundancies, and thi this is their challenge and this is what they seem to be achieving, and i think we should applaud them for that.
i think we should note that in the current year, and you've corrected mr , that it's three million pounds extra that we've spent, even though we've spent three million pounds extra in may, with our decisions then to restore the sheltered workshops and to give more money to education and to keep elderly peoples homes open.
even though we spent that money we are projected to come in with balances of three million pounds in excess of the budget figure set by the conservatives, and that is a six million pounds difference that's come straight out of the twenty-four and i think it tells us two things.
one is that the then conservative group, and i think, by reflection the current conservative groups, since everybody sitting here was here last year, don't know enough about budgeting to set a budget for a county council, and it also tells us that they don't know enough about managing a county council to manage even a budget that they have set.
and it surely is som something that the people of wiltshire can be glad that they made the right decisions in may, that they haven't got that administration,
hear, hear.
i think also, the people of wiltshire will be glad that it us here setting the budget, and therefore the precept and their council tax next year, and something that people will be looking at is their council tax bills, and noting that they go up by six point three percent, or are proposed to, with the provisional assets aim which is set by the government.
and people may be wondering why they're going up by so much, when after all, the s s a, and that is the figure that we're restricted to set by the government, is only going up by three point three percent, and half of this is for care in the community money, so that, all that care in the community money remember, pound for pound in that it's added to our budget, is knocked off the budget of social security, that is not, not any extra money spent on people.
so in reality our s s a is going up about one and a half percent, and as you know our budget has gone up about one and a half percent, so why is the council tax going up six point three percent?
well, as usual it's all there in the papers that mr has prepared for us if anybody cares to read them, and you will notice, the national non-domestic rate, the business rate as it's known, the contribution that the government are passing on from the business rates paid in wiltshire, back to the people of wiltshire is dropping by seven point nine million pounds, it's being cut from a hundred and eighteen point six to a hundred and nine point three million pounds, and again this is pound for pound.
pound for pound it's coming off the people of wiltshire, and it's going to fund kenneth clarke's budget deficit.
kenneth clarke has robbed the people of wiltshire of that money.
that's nine point three million pounds of business rates, and i'm sure i'm not the only person here that pays business rates in wiltshire, and i haven't noticed any sign that my rate bill are going down, course they're not.
the government is taking the money, and it is not paying it back to the people of wiltshire.
now, if we had actually received a one point five percent increase in the business rates, we could have cut the council tax 
so we could have reduced that, and i think that is the criticism that i make of the conservatives, not that the conservatives in this council have done that, but that they should be apologizing for it.
they should be standing here now as the party of high taxation, and saying sorry to the people of wiltshire for supporting kenneth clarke and his team, for supporting john major and his team, and they should be saying sorry for the part that we pa played in lying to the electorate at the last general election.
hear, hear.
well, follow that, erm,
i think that er, i'll be very brief because a lot of it's already been said, and you've already, mr chairman picked up mr on his dodgy figures, erm, with his five million, erm, because what that was about, just under three million was actually fulfilling our election pledges, which is something we have noticeably failed to see from this conservative government.
erm, mr goes on about displaying items of pain in a really rather sort of strange way, erm, the only reason why there's any pain in this budget is because of the constraints that this tory government is putting on us.
and if we were able to make a budget erm, without the constraints of the s s a and so on, we would not, erm you know, and without the cuts of business rates as mr said, there wouldn't need for any pain anyway.
erm, we have, as you would have seen, and has already been noted, erm, balances considerably higher than the seven million we've previously set, at the, at the moment, and these will erm, be able to make provision if necessary, for police pay should happen to be higher than er,we are told than, than the one point five percent, which has something that people have raised with me, and erm, have said, that oh of course you lose grants if you don't decide it now, but that is not in fact the case.
erm, i think that we have a very sane, sensible budget proposed here, and i trust that every sensible councillor will support it.
i, oh, i'm sorry, i didn't see you.
erm, could i go back to what mr was saying, of course the main thing is, really that er, the difference in this budget and previous ones is that we are not paying projection costs million.
erm, what mr very carefully very carefully failed to mention of course is that the rates of has in fact gone up by eleven point one percent.
very conveniently not mentioned.
yes, i, i, the 
can we erm, can we move on?
the, the motion i moved needs to be adjusted because of our decision on the probation committee, earlier.
little three, erm, where the reference to drawing from balances is made.
that figure needs to go up by twenty-six thousand to read nought point two three one million, and what's left needs to go down by twenty-six thousand at ten one one four o million.
erm, i'll put the motion to the vote, which consists of the whole of paragraph b of the budget review sub-committee's recommendation, with this being a recommendation to the county council, and with paragraphs c, d and e from the original agenda paper.
those in favour please show and the against?
that is carried.
thank you very much.
er, item twelve.
i'm going to take these two together, that's twelve one and twelve two.
twelve one deals with the recommendation for economic developments and tourism sub-committee, er the er projects, and twelve two with the er, capital budget report from the director of financial services, which is in the budget book, i refer to the recommendation on these items from the budget review sub-committee, which is in their minutes, at agenda item twenty-two one, at the bottom of the third page and going over to the fourth, erm, a number of paragraphs.
and erm, i'll move those recommendations from the budget review sub-committee, a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h.
in doing so i would erm, particularly like to say how much i appreciate the success of the bid, in erm, as, as an example of county, counties working together, erm, and indeed officers working together, and indeed of getting a positive response from the government.
i think from time to time, little bits of the government do work reasonably well, and do respond reasonably well to county council and local authority initiatives, and although i couldn't pretend that a hundred and, that twenty- five thousand pounds is going to solve the unemployment problem in wiltshire, nor indeed solve the problem being created by the run- down of defence industry, nevertheless, i think credit should be given where credit's due.
a lot of credit is due to our officers in this respect, for er, securing the success of that bid, and indeed for securing a back-up capital resource facility, in the unlikely event that we don't get the supplementary credit approval, er, for the er, for the expenditure.
so, i've moved the motion, anybody wish to speak on this item?
okay, those in favour please show and the against .
nobody else, er, agenda item thirteen treasury report 
aye.
thank you.
agenda item fourteen, i recommend that the county council approve the recommendations of eleven a, b and c.
aye
those in favour please say aye.
aye
and the against that is carried.
item fifteen, i move to approve the supplementary capital estimate of twenty-five thousand pounds for the st mary's infant school special nursery unit.
those in favour please say aye.
aye
and the against that is carried.
item sixteen, the district auditors management letter and audited accounts for ninety-two ninety-three.
mr .
thank you chair, chairman.
i have a particular over the management letter, and i'm sure mr will be aware that in fact i refer of course to the facilities management contract.
erm, this management letter was distributed er, to all of us, so i suppose some of us at least will have read it.
and, and the district auditor is particularly concerned.
he says, i remain concerned that it is not yet possible to agree an implementation plan for recommendations made in his previous report.
now this is in his key messages, and towards the back, there are two pages, where he complains that many promises were made for the facilities management contract, and in particular, erm, he says it is still the case that work to take advantage of the development faci facility has not yet been identified, now i think this is the thing we spent a million pounds on it, and are not using it.
and he says that progress towards down-sizing has not yet been planned to meet the target deadline within the con , within the contract.
now how long ago was that contract?
eighteen months?
and this is a letter dated a couple of months ago, is it?
erm, what's been going there?
now the facilities management contract is being held up by mr as an example for the property out-sourcing.
well i don't think it's a very good example, if it's being criticized.
perhaps it's the kind of example, in the same way that westminster council was held up as an example, and it's now being criticized by the district auditor.
erm, perhaps it will be mr 's policy to impune all district auditors that their findings are not worth erm, troubling with.
well, i don't suppose this contract's costing us twenty-one million, but it's costing us several million, and i would hate to think that er, any of that is being wasted, or not spent in the best possible way, and i would therefore recommend, chair, that we refer the matter of the facilities management contract to the budget review sub-committee for consideration of the way it's not being implemented.
right, thank you.
referring to, paragraphs one hundred and four to one hundred and nine, saying , miss also wishes to comment on this 
erm, yes i do, very much indeed.
i'm extremely disappointed, that erm, we don't seem to make any progress towards getting the savings erm, that, that, erm, we were promised.
i, i hesitate to suggest, i mean that i'm quite happy to support what mr is saying, because i really hesitate to suggest reviving the old computer and financial services working party, because i think that was probably my most miserable experience on this council, with the single exception of the budget review er, parallel, or whatever it was, when it was led by .
erm, but it seems to be the case that when there are not councillors here whinging away at officers, saying why isn't it working, nothing happens, it all gets sort of forgotten or something.
and we've got to do something about it, we were promised these savings, there aren't any, it doesn't look as if anybody's working awfully hard to get them, and i'd like to know why not, and what's going on, and i'm quite happy to support what mr proposes, that we refer it all to budget review.
you might have noticed, there is an officer response.
mr 
can i just say sir, we are, er, the manager is preparing a report, tonight plans a report for the february the twenty-second meeting of policy resources committee, on the first, well it's not the first year, first tranche of the f m contract, and dealing with these points of the 
it started at the end of march, it's the first nine months, it's the first tranche of the erm, the f m arrangement, and, and your members will be getting a report in february on that.
mr 
you would expect me to defend it, wouldn't you chairman, and i will.
i still remain convinced, that the, that the contract that we wrote, and, and, and we undertook remains the right
i don't know where mr get's his ideas from.
but there nd we undertook remains the right
no chair, i would very much like it to be looked at in great detail by the budget review committee, actually, you'll see in the report that many of these problems were identified as areas of concern by the district auditor prior to the signing of the contract, and he was given, it seems, various assurances which may or may not have been met, and i would like to go into much more detail than would be possible with this committee.
i'm actually thinking in terms of an hour or two, with the responsible manager reporting in detail to the budget review committee.
we're talking about a lot of money here, that has been spent, and has continued to be spent, and the sooner we get it sorted out the better, and i'd like to see it on the agenda of the next budget review committee, which would prior to the policy committee, i believe next, and so we could perhaps augment er, mr 's report with some findings of our own.
right, now i'm told that the report to next policy committee is coming anyway, it won't be ready for the next budget review, but you'd like, erm, so,cou , perhaps you'd better word your motion so that the officers completely clear as to what you're proposing.
yeah, i, i'm suggesting that the facilities management contract, be referred to the budget review sub-committee for consideration, and in that way we can actually consider it, and obviously if the report is not yet prepared, erm, perhaps we can put some input into it, i have to say, that it disturbs me to be given an answer, that don't worry everybody, there's a report coming, and then we suddenly say well, we might like to look at it in three weeks time, we're told actually it's not written yet.
that was seconded i think by mr 
right, well i mean i think it, it's actually quite simplified by the fact that i don't think there actually is a firm date for the budget review before the next p and r anyway.
erm, but i think p, er, budget review, or somebody needs to have a look at it, if you've got budget review and you've got people who, most of the people who were on the old working party know the background there anyway, seems as good a place as any to look at it.
i mean i actually voted for this contract, erm, rather reluctantly, but it seemed better than not, doing so at the time, but we were given assurances, and it was very well understood by absolutely everybody, that vigorous management would be needed in order to achieve the targetising and that was the only way that the savings were going to be made, and it does seem that, that, erm that has not been going on.
i would support what mr was saying.
yes, we have a small problem with the dates, that's all.
the budget review sub-committee has a provisional date of thursday the third of february, which was in the minds of members and officers to deal with anything urgent that needed to be dealt with before county council budget making.
erm, i'm happy to take mr 's view on this.
whether he wants to get f m onto the agenda and firm that up as a date for a meeting.
well i, i think it's, that's a meeting that we were thinking of not having unless there was some sort of panic caused by yet another change of the government's position on budgets.
so it's still in obeyance isn't it?
what i'm suggesting really, is let's get it on the agenda for budget review whenever the next meeting is, to be considered in depth, and if that gives an extra couple or three weeks for officers to write the report, fine, if it goes beyond the next policy and resources a week or two won't matter in the scheme of things, it's detailed consideration i'm looking for, rather than a fast fix in ten minutes at the next p and r.
okay, everybody clear what the motion is?
those in favour please show and the against any further points on the district auditor's reports?
miss 
erm, yes.
i would like to draw attention particularly in the light of the next item on the agenda, er, to paragraph erm, paragraph forty-two to forty-five, talking about environmental management.
erm, in particular in paragraph forty-four.
he is er, strongly er, suggesting that we ought to be rather more pro-active than we either are, or than anybody is suggesting that we ought to be in the paper at number seventeen.
and i'd just like to raise this now because i'll be saying more when we get to seventeen.
thank you miss .
erm, mr 
thank you.
i would like to erm, talk to ninety-three on page thirty-one and er, this is education rationalizing primary school education.
i think there's er, a dispute er, erm, that's my er, choice of words, between the district auditor and ourselves, over, over this.
and i think that it might be useful, mr chairman to emphasize the fact that we are a rural county, and a rural county has specific rural problems, er, and i don't think that the district auditor has recognized the particular problems that we have er, in a rural county.
so, i wonder whether er, as ari er, a matter arising out of this, erm er, the director of education could, erm er, perhaps address this issue and put forward a paper to the next education committee.
well, i, i think i will ask the director of education to comment on that paragraph, because to a large degree, the, the district auditor's report that he refers to there, in his section, matters previously raised, his report entitled rationalizing primary school education was published in december nineteen ninety- one, and it is being addressed through a, a working party of the education committee which involves representatives from the church as well as of the political groups.
but i do think that the district auditor is beginning to be presented as a bogie man erm, waved in the faces of people in rural areas, as a sort of threat that even if the council doesn't want to close your school, it might, and i think that probably isn't a very proper use of the district auditor's image, nor of his report, and i think perhaps some direct contact with him, er to show what progress we're making, paragraph by paragraph, and what we think of that report from december ninety-one, probably needs to be made.
but i will ask dir , the director to re , respond to you on this mr , er, er, did you want to also put this to vote?
no, well i, i'll ask them to hang for mr .
chairman,ye , yes it is a recurring theme of the district auditor an , and i told him in the past, that erm, where this council has a policy that they would support village schools and keep them open wherever possible, erm, that that, that, that decision had been discussed, and er, i, i have to remind that i did remind the district auditor that he doesn't have to get elected every four years, as some of us do, and er, those in rural areas know very well that that is the way not to get elected, to be talking about shutting village schools.
but he doesn't acknowledge, and what, this is what i find concerning, the fact that we have in some areas of the county, amalgamated schools into a new school, west grinstead and alderbury for example, and taken surplus places out.
in the meer area we, we, we've built meer first school into an annexe and we took surplus places out, so we have done something, and he doesn't seem to even acknowledge that, which i find concerning.
i doubt whether the working party will get any further than recommending the status quo, because i'm absolutely sure in my own mind, that it is a duty that this council has to support village schools, where the parents support them, and where they're educationally beneficial, to support them in the village communities, because they are, they have other importance than just education.
they are also a centre of the village.
dr 
thank you chairman.
erm, if i could just bring the committee up to date on one or two things that have happened in relation to the district auditor's report.
firstly, er, i could assure the committee that the working party on provision of secondary and primary places which is published by the education committee, is taking the auditor's report very seriously, and has been through it in detail, and has er, drawn up a programme of, of analysis, erm, over the next few months, very much taking into account the district auditor's comments.
there have been discussions, both at education committee and at county council which relate to the district auditor's concerns, er, county council want a full discussion of course about the place of small schools in the county, being a predominantly rural area.
and also last friday at education committee there was a long debate, both on the procedure which would be adopted by the working party, in discharging it's remit and in particular the policy which it recommended regarding small schools, and also an extended debate on one of the areas which was a subject of recommendation by the er, district auditor which concerns the organisation of first and middle schooling in the meer area, and there the working party did look very specifically at the recommendation that was made by the district auditor that decided on balance that that wasn't likely to produce the best and most cost effective education in that part of the county.
so, i think that the er, education committee has taken the, the report seriously and quite recently has looked at it in depth.
the other thing perhaps i could just say, chairman, is that i did meet a representative of the district auditor last week to bring you up to date on the work which the education committee was doing.
erm, mr .
thank you chairman.
er, throughout the management letter to members the district auditor er, makes suggestions and, and indicates that he will be monitoring our progress on a number of actions.
specifically i notice his comment in relation to the christie miller controversy, and also in relation to certain matters involving the police.
erm, i wonder if this is a matter which budget review might wish to keep on a continuing brief, so that, to satisfy themselves that the, this council is in fact making progress, and will be in a position to satisfy the district auditor in future years that we are er, taking on board the comments that he's making and er, moving forward.
i'm conscious of the fact obviously that individual departments are taking them on board, but i think we, it is important that we actually do have a consistent approach, and it might well be that budget review at some future meeting might want to consider the monitoring of progress in order to satisfy the district auditor in future events.
i've looked, for example, erm, to his comment on the police communications rooms, which will actually have a significant impact on er, the budget of the police committee in future years.
yes, i, i mean, i think, i don't want to come in there, but i think the difference between the point that you've made mr and, and some of the others is the district auditor hasn't put a thing in a box.
if he puts a thing in a box, it means you really have got to read this, and worry about it, but i think he's fairly happy with the progress on police training and police communication arrangements.
if it had been up to me, you'd have one police communication room, not two, because i've worked in operations control, and you want to have a single control room for your authority, if any other system is less efficient than that.
but i appreciate there were good operational reasons why he did what he did, but that's just from my own experience.
mr 
thank you chairman.
it's just that i think the district auditor knows what the cost of local schools is, and not the value of local schools.
what i, and i having heard the director, what i want to be clear about, is that any decision which relates to closing local schools on, on economic grounds comes to the full county council, and is, is not dealt with by education.
if it doesn't come to the full county council, then i will make sure it does, but i, one would hope that a decision such as that, which is of paramount importance in a, a rural area would be taken by a full county council and not by education.
well, that would be a change in procedure, i think, i don't recall that the closure of berwick st james school was dealt with by county council, but berwick st james was closed, i don't think we can pretend in either way about that.
and i voted, i think, if i had a vote that day, i certainly voted in favour of that, and so did members of all groups.
some members voted against.
but erm, i, certainly mr had the right through standing orders to ensure that that er, was er, taken to county council, wouldn't he?
yes sir, county council could make that decision, it would first though have to consider a report from the education committee, under the education act.
it's all very hypothetical.
mrs 
thank you chair.
i think education committee is quite capable of making those kinds of decisions, and members, erm, that er, are representing rural areas are allowed to come along to education committee, and i think that's perhaps the better way to, to go along those lines.
but i, i would like to point out the difficulties that the audit has, the dist , the difficulties that the erm, er, local authorities have, or local education authorities have, in that the government are, er, the government insists on taking up surplus places, and this is inconsistent with their, also with their insistence on choice and diversity in education, and i think those points could be made quite clearly to the d f e some time or other.
mr 
thank you chair.
can i echo the comments that people have made on the value of rural schools to villages.
it's something i think everyone recognizes at their own, that village school plays more than just the function of educating children, in small village communities.
but there is the other argument that has to be taken off, is that of, there is money, and i, we all would like to say that we'd like to pour as much money into education as we feel we could spend.
but it doesn't mean, it's not, reality says that's not possible, because central government will not give us additional money to spend on education.
therefore, we're left with a certain pot and we must manage that the best way possible in providing the best education, not only for children in village schools, but in towns and every of large or medium size throughout this county.
and why should the education of those who live in large towns suffer to finance uneconomical schools in rural areas of this county.
i'm not saying that they are uneconomical, but there may be the odd one or two cases, like the of berwick st james is a fine example, when it became uneconomical to maintain that school for the number of pupils which were attending, or proposed to be taken in the near future, and it was a sensible option for those children, and economically to close that school.
and that has to be maintained in the future.
i don't support this blanket band of reducing surplus places for the sake of reducing surplus places, like the district auditor, and if quote right, it's an accountant looking at erm, looking at figures and nothing else, and i think that is the problem with the issue, erm, we've seen in other schools, in larger schools, where they've developed erm, classrooms into a decent library, or resource area, but in the, in the, in the overall spectrum they're still counted as classroom spaces, and if that classroom was put back er in, into a class, the school would suffer environmentally, because that school would have no library facilities, no resource facilities which it's able to appreciate at the present time.
i believe that this group, the labour group will continue to support rural schools, where we feel that they are viable, and of benefit to the children.
our arguments on friday, and still are, that we believe the two tier system is educationally beneficial than the three tier.
but that argument we lost on friday, and i'm not going to pursue it today.
but what i, we are not prepared to do, is allow the schools that we represent to suffer, just to maintain small schools in this county, which are no longer economical or viable or educationally beneficial to the children that attend them.
we are not prepared to stand by and let schools in areas that we represent get closed or re-organised or whatever, at the expense of small village schools, which should be re-organised, or re-rationalised before schools in large urban areas.
we will not take the brunt of the district auditor's reduction in surplus places.
it has to be done evenly across the board, in the rural and urban areas, or else we will fight every tooth and nail to make sure that we, our schools that we represent do not suffer.
and i give that clear warning.
the labour party in this county, values the role of small rural schools, but we are not prepared to see urban schools suffer to make sure that urb , rural schools are kept open for the sake of being kept open.
can i remind members of a fact that in the sake of a county where there are more small schools, there is four percent more spent on education in the south of the county than any other part of wiltshire.
right, erm, i move that we er, having dealt with the f m under a separate motion, that we note the district auditor's report.
those in favour please say aye.
aye.
and the against that's carried.
item seventeen.
.
well now, i'll move the recommendations at seventeen and eighteen, but erm, i feel something further is required to try and get er, our officers working with our committees on local agenda twenty-one, and indeed in bringing forward the environmental audit scheme.
i don't want to have a working party, but i'm wondering if we should lay down some sort of set of timetable and dates.
mr .
thank you manag , er mr chairman.
er,sorry.
sorry about that er, er, erm 
actually i was yeah .
erm, it's just on the big print on the bottom of page one, g two.
er, what's the point of analysing fuel for it's su , er, diesel fuel for it's sulphur content?
it's much more economical both for th , and good for the environment to buy low sulphur fuel.
because, you know, it, it's cheaper to run your vehicles on low sulphur diesel, and it is because you don't get the deterioration in it, and it's better for the, it's better for the atmosphere.
so i would have thought would be better to buy low sulphur contented diesel rather than analyse it, and in c thirteen, it worries me a little bit, because i believe that the district councils are the drainage authorities with the right about land drainage, and it was taken away from the county council several years ago.
so are we actually putting our feet into what's being done by the district councils over c thirteen.
i, i totally agree with what they're saying, but i'm just worrying that we're trying to do the job that the district councils are supposed to do.
i, i, i would wonder if mr 's questions need to be erm, taken up with the chief public health inspector, because i think that that, or it, that appears to be, or possibly the trading chi=standards, trading standards officer, neither of whom are here.
erm, because er, it does seem that erm, though we're not talking about our own fuel, we're talking about testing other people's fuel, and erm, there's an, it's an arcane point about district councils.
miss .
erm, thank you chairman.
yes, i mean it's, it's a nice report, but it's erm, it's not very sort of forceful or vigorous, is it?
erm, you know it's saying that motherhood is a good thing, but let's not exert ourselves too greatly to do anything about it.
erm.
oh, sorry i've got sex on the mind.
erm, i think, you know, when it says, at the end, towards the end of paragraph eleven, talking about the environmental management scheme for local government,could be utilised as tools to help improve the management framework for the councils precedents and initiatives in environmental matters.
i would have felt much happier if the word had been will rather than could.
erm, it's quite clear from the district auditor's letter that he thinks that we're not being systematic enough, about what we do about environmental improvements, and it seems fairly clear to me to, that if we just push the to the service committees, erm, nothing will ever happen, except possibly on planning, and that erm, it will just sort of quietly disappear because it's not the top priority of any of the other service committees.
and, it's only if this committee decides to take a hand in pushing environmental issues forward, that they will actually come about, except, almost by accident.
and i would suggest therefore, that what we ought to do, is to ask not only for erm, the service committees to have reports, but for there to be erm, a, a, at some point a round up report of policy and resources.
i don't know if we ought to put a timetable on that, on what's going on, on this erm, eco-management erm, business, but also, i was wondering, could we not ask for a report to the march or april meeting of this committee, on what actions we could take to make progress on the recommendations of the district auditor in paragraph forty-four.
erm, those are specifically, that there should be a formal framework for monitoring the revue, of our policies, that individual service committees should prioritise individual policies based on consistent criteria, and that there is the need to make staff aware of the authority's environmental policies.
these are all things that we can take specific action, some easier and cheaper than others, to do something about.
but i think we need to have a report to this committee, saying what we could do, and then we can decide what we will do.
and i would like to move that that is added to your recommendation mr chairman.
er, i think, miss you're moving er, an extra paragraph nineteen as it were to er, that a report be made to, shall we say the april meeting of policy and resources committee on progress in implementing the district auditor's recommendations, er paragraph four .
but what i, i specifically worded this, what actions we could make, could take to make progress
okay.
because if you still want the answer to progress, the answer will come back none.
erm, if you ask for what actions we could take, then we'll have to work out a way of doing it.
is everybody clear on that amendment, which i'm happy to accept into er, my motion.
i call mr .
thank you chair.
erm, i don't know if it's worth speaking now, i, i'd like to second everything that has said, and what the auditors have said erm, in the management arrangement.
i do thank mr for this report, but i would have liked to have seen that the chief executive had been a signatory to it as well.
because 
hear, hear.
it is something whi which affects the whole council, it isn't the prerogative of any particular service committee, and though on environmental matters and public health matters, another mi may be responsible and know more, it is an overall policy which erm, is being developed and needs to be erm, needs to be brought into play.
erm, there is a need, as said, to make staff away of the authorities environmental policies.
erm, i dare say, on all our staff, our staff could make us more aware of environmental policies, and you know, are aware of erm, the need for the environmental action, erm than, erm than the action we are taking ourselves.
that er, er, little action has been taken in the last thirty forty years since this has been being discussed, erm, i think the first international conference erm, produced their own report in nineteen sixty.
erm, we had the rio conference in nineteen ninety-three, erm, we'll still doing very little about it.
we the local authority, i think people of wiltshire expect us to be the lead agency in promoting sustainability and environmental, highlighting environmental issues, throughout the county.
erm, not just taking a back seat, we need to actually promote these.
erm, i recognise that erm, within the report it does state erm, that there is the cost of it, and erm, and in lancashire it may have cost three million pounds etc, it doesn't say what it specifically was.
since having said that erm, i'm not immediately looking erm, for high expenditure, but i would hope that possibly one particular area, or w er,council, erm, as it were could start operating the system, erm, on a trial basis, and preferably erm, not one which is erm, under planning and highways, though planning and highways and environmental officers would need to help them.
would suggest, erm, would be libraries and museums.
and i suggest libraries and museums, because i dare say they have the greatest experience in information co-ordination systems erm, within the, within the council, and i think, er, and of course they're highly involved out in the community.
you'll find a library in absolutely every community, and reacting with people, and i would like to suggest that erm, a pilot project is erm, promoted within the libraries and museums committee, and that libraries and museums committee consider that at it's next meeting.
okay erm,mr please.
thank you.
if we look at the paper before us mr chairman, er, g two, and c thirteen.
er, g two is something which is specifically an envir , part of the environmental strategy.
but c thirteen, about the conservation of the water environment and water resources, is a matter which could be incorporated in the county structure plan.
as opposed to g two.
i was wondering whether erm, the director of planning and highways could, in an update, as proposed by erm, councillor erm, suggest other ways in which our environmental strategy could be inc er, could, could be strengthened.
i have already suggested that c thirteen could become the formal part of the county structure plan, and that would strengthen it enormously.
but because g two can't become a, a structure plan issue, i was wondering if the erm, environmental strategy of this council, when it is adopted, er, er,wh when it's formulated and, and, and, and adopted, er, could that be incorporated as an appendix to the county structure plan.
i think there are a variety of ways mr chairman, in which our environmental strategy, when it's formulated, could be publicised and that's one way forward, and i wonder whether director could perhaps incorporate an argument for or against that,i , in, in,i , in the paper that councillor has suggested.
thank you mr .
i'm going to bring mr in in a minute, but i think mr .
firstly chairman, er er, a comment about the district auditor, i do find it a little perverse, that in fact on the last subject when we were talking about small schools, he doesn't take into account any other erm, item than the financial argument.
and then suddenly we find the district auditor making comments about an environmental strategy, which i would have thought was, if he worked on the basis of the last one, rather outside his remit.
erm, i, i think sometimes if he's prepared to talk about such things as this, he should be prepared to consider the advantages to villages of, of small schools, and not just work on the financial item.
erm, when we look at the environmental strategy, i always think that environmental strategies are common sense to people, and that sometimes the involvement of large organizations is sometimes counter-productive.
erm, comment was made of c thirteen, we do when we design our roads, actually already put catchment areas in, so that if a lorry load of diesel happens to split on it that, that there are drains to hold it.
i saw that when i, when we opened the codford by-pass.
or went to it during construction.
there are pits down the hill, as you come into codford, which actually would take the contents of a tanker, if it, if there was an accident.
so, already, these things have been done as common sense in the past.
er, and i just wonder why we're trying to re-invent the wheel sometimes at these things.
it's probably, maybe member's ignorance that they don't know that, that already a lot of work has been done on it.
but, we're in danger very often, with environmental strategies, of taking quick decisions, that are misguided.
erm, and i've been involved in lengthy discussion on behalf of certain people in the trade, one of the largest er, chains of superstores, do-it-yourself superstores.
and some of the things that are coming through there, are common sense, some of the things are a reaction which erm, is mis-informed.
but this is particularly in the timber trade.
timber trade world-wide is doing an enormous amount of work already to make sure that sustainable timber is supplied, and the horror stories are slowly going away, and a lot of people now do not buy timber in this country, from those countries who've got a bad track record, but are buying from countries like denmark and sweden, where it's a national law on their forestry policy.
i, i, i believe that a lot of work's going on.
i think we have to be very careful we don't take reactions which actually negate some of the work and the common sense that has been undertaken at the moment.
mr 
thank you chairman.
if i could just briefly address three or four of the points.
firstly miss 's correct.
it, it isn't being approached very vigorously at the moment, er in a general sense because of two things.
one is, none of the departments are resourced to give this a lot of attention, and secondly we have been waiting for further guidance from the government on the outcome, particularly from local government, in respect of agenda twenty-one.
now this week the government are publishing four papers on, and i quote, the u k's government first strategy for sustainable development.
so miss 's point is very appropriate to bring a report back to a future committee in the near future, er, that covers the queries that have been raised by members, and the government's new policies or new proposals, i will take instructions from the chief executive on that, and will, er subject to the chief executive's review, also cover matters such as structure plan, and the co-ordination of this er, within, within the local authority.
and, to try and give options for members, at different expenditure levels of how we may move forward, because it isn't a cheap process, or not if we follow the lancashire model it isn't a cheap process, but of course we can scale our proposals down.
so subject to me taking advice from the chief executive, er i feel we can do what members require.
thank you chairman.
may i just i think that this has all party support, erm, the actual scheme was produced, erm,f and if the government is a signatory to that, erm, unfortunately the signatory to it was the environmen ,environmen , environment minister tim yeo, who has now departed but
it, you know, it does have, it does have government, government support, so that it isn't, we're not trying to do anything which erm, the government isn't supporting as well.
and, er, you know, that's just, so that mr is aware that we're trying to do what john major agreed at rio.
okay, i er, we've got a motion, let's put it to the vote.
it's paragraph seventeen, eighteen and the additional item added by miss about a report to the april meeting on what action can be taken to implement the district auditor's recommendations, and from what we've heard i think that report will also contain reference to today's, the correct response to today's government four papers erm, on the policy with regard to the rio summit .
and i hope that, and indeed the point about the, the er, what might be added from the environmental strategy into the structured plan, which mr made.
erm, so we'll look forward to that report, er, those in favour of the recommendations please say aye.
aye.
and the against.
they're carried.
miss .
thank you.
erm, as the person who mo , moved the original motion, i would be very happy to move the recommendations, and to thank mr , mrs , mr and mr , who are the only members here present who voted for it at the time.
erm, it has actually worked, erm, in that it seems that there's a very fair chance that er, in spite of the very discouraging things that were said by some of the people on my right when i moved this, erm, there is a very good chance now for a reasonable er, settlement in south africa, which i think should erm, make everyone in this chamber very happy, and it is that, undoubtedly the case that economic pressure had a great deal to do with that.
thank you chairman.
miss moved .
you have already second, but i was going to second it, and say how very pleased i am to have the opportunity to second it.
those in favour, please shout it.
aye.
and the against.
that's carried.
item twenty,funding.
er, we have erm,
thank you chairman.
yes i would.
erm, and in fact i would move my original motion as an amendment to yours.
and the reason i do that, is that er, i believe that you've er, actually misunderstood what is going on, and i alluded to some of that during the debate earlier, on the budget.
i think it's wrong, in paragraph a of your motion, to say the police committee has received privileged funding.
it's privileged if you don't want it maybe.
the funding, was a matter of assessing priorities, and each time, when that assessment came, the police were prioritised as to receive the funding that was thought correct to undertake the duties that they do in this county.
and we know that through that period, there has been a steady increase in the number of police officers the county have got, and this county has always up to now, willingly funded those police officers.
part b of your motion.
yes we know that from the first of april ninety-five it will probably no longer be the responsibility of the county council to set a budget for the wiltshire police authority.
that's all the more reason why you should not be cutting their budget below what they need for next year.
you've used, er, er, an underspend from this year rolled over, but you haven't increased the base budget to pay for the projection costs which came from erm, this year's budget.
and we all know, that if you put the police into the er, budget next year, in at a low level, that is the level which the government will assume this county council thinks is correct to fund the police force.
so your under-funding next year, and your use of the rollovers, will actually have a long term effect on the funding of the wiltshire police force, and i suggest that there'll be problems er, ahead on that basis.
you refer in part d erm, to recent government announcements which you say will make the fight against crime less effective.
a freeze on the number of police officers, but we know that through the review of the police ranking system, that the home secretary has said that will mean a considerable number, and i think the figure of two thousand was mentioned, extra officers will be back on the beat.
that's where the public want to see them, not sitting in offices pushing paper.
the reduction in the paperwork undertaken by officers will mean a further number of police officers back on the beat, where the people of this county want to see them.
not pushing paper in headquarters and divisional headquarters and police stations.
but the announcement made by the home secretary went further.
and it went further into things like, erm, giving more thought to the problems of the victim, and a little less erm, consideration of the criminal who inflicts such terrible da er, harm onto their victims.
i can think now of two elderly people i know, who never, ever got over a burglary.
one died recently, but she couldn't ever come to terms with the fact that her house had been burgled, and that the er, that some of her most valued contents had been taken.
and i'd want to know that the person who did that was going to be punished, and punished properly.
and i think for too long, we've listened to the libertarians who want to think of the rights of the criminal all the time, and er, and don't worry too much about the victim.
i think that the genetic er, testing that was, that is now law, has to go a long way towards finding criminals, who once they've been tested will find it very difficult to commit crime again, because they're on record, and they'll be on computer record.
many announcements made by the home secretary are moving in the way that i have always wanted it to move, and i believe that er, in wiltshire this will have a very positive effect.
we have already, we believe accepting in wiltshire for two of the new parish constable erm, appointments.
i only hope that the police committee will actually support those and get on towards introducing them, because that is a way of using some of the people in our village communities to erm, to keep an eye on the community and see that those people that shouldn't go round.
i hear that maybe, we're not going to support that policy.
i hope, and i shall be bringing it up at the next police committee, that we will commit ourselves to that initiative will a view to bringing in those two pilot schemes in the county and extending it at a later date.
so chairman, i move my original motion as an amendment to yours.
mr please.
thank you chair.
i erm, i think it's worth correcting some of the financial mistakes again, that mr , and then perhaps give him some more facts on that.
the paper circulated demonstrates that since eighty-eight nine through to ninety-three four, whereas county council spending as a whole has gone up by thirty-eight percent, spending on the police has gone up by eighty-eight percent, and that's more than double.
now i, i think that, you know, if mr 's got any complaints about that, and he says that that isn't privileged, well i think he can only blame his own administration as well as anybody else's.
i think surely we cannot deny the facts that the police have received very good funding from this authority, and indeed in this current budget they continue to do so.
we've given them three hundred and sixty-four thousand pounds of extra funding, which we could legitimately have taken away as, particularly in the way that it was done, and as i understand it they er, revealed their v i p protection two months early to the home office, and therefore cut our s s a by a substantial amount, and i would even perhaps start that as a, as i could, as a series of criticisms about the way the police maintain their budget, and about the way that they have responded.
it's perhaps the only committee, if one dare call it a committee of this council, where the chief officer hasn't troubled to come to the budget review and represent the interests of his committee.
i can only take it that he wasn't that concerned, that perhaps the chief constable doesn't share mr 's concerns, and is perhaps happy that he has received the generous funding that we state he has.
it seems to me that he can't be that unhappy because he's currently managing twelve vacancies deliberately, in order to produce underspend so that he can re-surface his car park, maintain privileged restaurants for his erm, senior officers, chauffeur driven car for himself and build a new hangar for his helicopter.
this produced, even despite that, two hundred and thirteen thousand two hundred pounds of underspending in ninety-three four on just general expenses, on operational expenses, now i think if, if the chief constable says he hasn't got enough money to do what he wants to do, he could start by spending all of the money he's had this year, in recruiting all the officers he's been allowed to recruit.
i think in fact it's a bit of a cheek for the chief constable to go to the home secretary here ev , home secretary again this year, asking for more officers, when he hasn't recruited all the ones that he was given last year.
and that's perhaps why he's been turned down.
i, i don't think mr 's actually got any very reasonable criticisms at all, and we must again say, as we often do to conservatives now, who do you think's been running the country for the last fourteen or fifteen years?
are the dangerous libertarians, or do you mean liberals, that you accuse of running the country?
are the people like margaret thatcher?
i hadn't noticed her being soft on criminals, soft on people.
but i think the point that you're really missing is that only one in fifty crimes is solved.
if you concentrate on punishing criminals, you're still leaving most crimes unsolved, and it is prevention that people are concerned about.
yes, it's prevention, you've got to prevent the crimes being committed, not just chase after the people and hang and flog them once you catch them.
and i think that's the, the problem with your focus, because what has really happened, over the last, well i suppose since your government's been in power even, or even before.
more and more money has been spent on the police, and it hasn't worked, and that's why everybody's looking round for new initiatives, that's why patrick sheehy who after all is chairman of a very successful commercial corporation, was asked by your government to put forward recommendations, that a lot of very unsuccessful police forces rejected out of hand.
your government didn't have any courage then to back up it's own man, and force through some changes, and so i don't know what your policy is, it seems to change every couple of years.
but one thing you can't do, is criticise this county council at all, it's simply not our fault.
hear, hear.
i certainly can criticise what mr said.
i'll just pick up, first of all one or two of the points he made.
erm, he, he, he er, decried the building of the hangar, in fact that resulted in an infinitely cheaper and better contract, saved a lot of money doing it.
er, i can assure him the chief constable more than shares our concerns about his,hi ,hi , his under-funding.
erm, this idea that the police had more more money, yes they have had more money, what, what er, has been very conveniently ignored is the enormous amount of money we've had to spend on special protection duties.
that is where most of the increase has gone.
now erm, mr refers to er, er, privileged funding.
this is a total distortion of the true facts.
in fact erm, there's been less funding per head in wiltshire, than many other authorities in the country.
until eighteen months ago 
wiltshire, it's no use you keep saying it's not true.
until eighteen months ago wiltshire was the most undermanned force in this country, and that's not our figures, that was the home office formula which produced that, and because of that eighteen months ago the home secretary actually granted this force an extra sixty- seven policemen and he gave none to anybody else.
i think he gave one, one other county to be fair.
and that was the reason why, and in fact the total shortfall, the total unmanning was something like a hundred and thirty-five hundred and forty, which is why the police authority has a bid in at this moment for a, a further sixty-eight policemen, which has in fact been backed by the county council, who are prepared to pay for it.
now the home office has said, the home secretary rather, has said this year that he's not granting any more policemen this year, but he also said that if county councils wished to fund more policemen, he would certainly look at that.
the true fact is we are no longer prepared to fund them, because we've cut the police budget.
and erm, looking then at base budget which has been mentioned.
the first session we're gonna look at is called training and .
it's just literally about a twenty minute session.
the purpose of the session really is to give this training course an overview and also to, to sort of have a for training.
what we want to do in this session as i said it will only take about twenty minutes, there are three key things we want to do.
one, we're going to look at why well trained staff are, are so important to the c u, secondly we're going to look at things responsibility training is and lastly we want to look at a systematic approach that you can take as training.
those are the three things we're gonna cover in about twenty minutes.
well the first thing that we want to think about is why well trained staff are so important to the company and do this very much a participated session, ignore the tape, i am, i've forgotten about it already!
so why are well trained staff so important to the company?
you can just shout out any ideas you have so why do we need well trained people?
productivity.
productivity.
yep?
cost efficiency.
much more cost effective isn't it if things to be done once rather than have to do reading them two or three times and generally the reason that things are repeated a number of times is that perhaps people are not really quite sure or not that that are systems, yet productivity the better trained people are people who can do things, get it right the first time and they can do more work can't they than somebody else you are not having to pick it up as the manager responsible and put mistakes right.
so productivity and cost efficiency.
it gives a good impression 
yeah, like so many industries we're competing on good service aren't we and if we do things right it does convey a very professional image of c u to, to, to the company, to the, not to the company, to the, to the market place.
i mean you were gonna say something.
any more?
so we've got
er yeah that's a good one isn't it?
just as if , if we are in a sort, team leader or a section head as i've shown, it doesn't mean to say that we hold all the knowledge, we can pass it on to others, who can he pass it on to somebody else although you ultimately may be responsible for the training of other people, you don't need to do it all yourself do you, but unless you pass on skills, you're gonna make a sort of a quite a vicious circle for yourself aren't ya?
yeah.
and how does training do that?
we all like to get things right don't we?
we all like to think we can do things and we can do things well.
it actually helps our morale doesn't it and it sort of helps our confidence.
i don't know about you, but if i had to sort of pass something on to somebody else to check, if i can see somebody scribbling on it, i, i, i, i feel quite edgy, i hate it, i like to feel that i can do it and i can do it well and that other people don't need to have to amend it.
there have been a lot of studies done with regard to morale and job satisfaction and it has been shown that, that if people are well trained, they feel a lot more loyalty towards the company cos they feel that somebody's actually taking responsibility for their training and development.
how does that help us in the outside world if people know that we we give good training?
yeah we attract a better class of candidate don't we?
people hear within the market place that, that we give good training, that we do develop people and it does attract good people to join us doesn't it, whereas very few people want to join a company where you go nowhere, where you're not given any training you stay in the same job for ten years and it does nothing for you.
most of us like to feel that we can join in and we can progress if we want to.
any others?
if any decided 
yeah.
yeah.
we need to sort of plan we need to grow people, develop people.
otherwise if we don't invest money and time in training, we're forced to have to go outside to sort of buy in people, because we haven't actually invested in them.
. any more?
i think those are the those are the key things that we want to put across really.
i think the other thing is is about erm flexible as well, we've got a flexible workforce.
if people are well trained, you've got lots of people in turn you know when you've got absenteeism or holidays, you've got lots of people who could be slotted to different positions for you and obviously the better trained people are, it does help with the talent, it makes you more flexible and you've got more people who can possibly go for certain jobs.
awful lot of reasons why training i is so important to us an and basically it simply all comes back to our statement isn't it,it it's to be a sort of feeding insurer to give unsurpassed service.
i mean th there's no way we could do that unless we've got well trained staff.
we can't compete on the basis, we can't project the profession if people aren't well trained and people are making slow and the only way we can overcome that is by taking the time to train people.
and on a more le local level you're quite right the better trained people there are, the more they, the happier they feel the more work they have, the more job satisfaction they have.
there is a direct correlation between morale, motivation, job satisfaction and absenteeism and staff turnover, if people are happy they generally want to stay for us they're much more loyal and work harder and when we're managing an area it becomes a lot easier because we are not having to, people are well trained they do the things right first time, you're not having to correct their mistakes.
so training is is essential really, it's fundamental.
in fact we'll move on quickly now to have a look at, we've looked at why it's so important.
if we spend one or two minutes just thinking about whose responsibility is training?
who do you see as the sort of holding responsibility for training?
whoever's got some knowledge to pass on.
yeah, who has ever got knowledge to pass on.
cos if you were asked as, as, as a person by, by a manager or by somebody else to, to actually do the training, then it's your responsibility isn't it you've been asked, you've been given that task and it's your responsibility to ensure that people are able to do at the end of the session something effectively.
who else do you see as holding responsibility for training?
training officer.
yeah.
training officer.
that's what they're they're employed to do at any particular site, but they don't hold total responsibility do they?
line manager's job.
yes, yeah.
line managers and supervisors as well are, are responsible for training because as a line manager or a supervisor you're responsible aren't you for training and developing people.
that is one of your accountabilities to develop others and training falls into that.
now you may as a manager think well you don't have to do it all yourself, you can use senior people within your section who have the knowledge or you can use training officers or you can use people like ourselves at the training centre or the c b t or the i vs or it could be that you bring the marketing department to help you out.
there are lots of resources available for you, but ultimately if you have a manager or a supervisor in your title, then you are responsible for the training development of others, or in a technical, louise and andy the b t as are responsible for the, the technical training, aren't they, of others within, within the section cos you have the knowledge.
well what a lot of people say on the course is i know it's my responsibility, but i always, i don't always have the time to train because there's a lot of backlog, there's a lot of pressure, it's and we all say to them that training is like a catch twenty two situation.
if you don't make the time for training due to the work, pressures or deadlines or backlogs, and if you're not training others they make mistakes don't they?
if they're not properly trained it's not their fault, people can only do what they can do can't they?
if th they don't know if people are not properly trained they are making mistakes then it does make more work doesn't it?
because the mistakes have to be rectified and it puts us under even more pressure because you've got even less time.
so training we do need to make the time otherwise it does become a catch twenty two situation.
but as you said if it is your responsibility you'll have to do it all yourself, there are lots of resources and lots of other people who can actually help you out who have the knowledge and you can use because you can use it as a development tool can't you for some of your members of the section to to give them some training expertise.
right so we'll just look at the sort of er the negative side of not making the time that we get more mistakes.
we have to rectify more mistakes and put more pressure on us.
what i'd like to introduce lastly now is an approach that you can take to training to help yourselves and to help make it more effective and more systematic and what i'd like to introduce to you is, is something called the training cycle and the rest of the course is actually based around the training cycle and i know margaret you've actually seen the training cycle a few weeks ago, i'm not sure if, if any of the others are, any of the others familiar?
yes, i have.
you've seen it before.
good.
now for questions in the next session now.
can't remember it though .
great.
we've seen training, there have been four major steps for training and the first of which is actually to identify training needs.
so before we start doing anything at all we actually do some identification of trainees.
what do you think this actually involves?
those that have seen it before.
oh right.
or for those who haven't seen it before.
what do you think identifying training is all about?
yeah.
yeah.
to find out?
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
identifying trainees is all about finding out who needs to be trained and what they need to know and if you remember one of ject objectives we had for the course is, was to, so that by the end of the course you will actually develop a system by identifying the trainees because this is sort of hit or miss.
if they're gonna do training well, then we need some sort of system to find out who knows what and what people need to learn.
we need some sort of method for finding out what people need to know.
the second part once we know what people need to know we now need to think about putting together some training which actually satisfies that particular need.
so this next part is called design in training.
we're slipping into the training jargon here, but all it is is writing, just putting together some material which is, which is just what they need.
if you haven't done this, if you haven't found out exactly what people need to know, the danger is that when you actually start to put together some material it's very hit or miss isn't it?
it could be that you're giving them some stuff that we already know or it could be that you're giving them some stuff which is far too advanced for them, they don't have the basics there.
sometimes we know people very well, but it still helps doesn't it if somebody else comes in that there's some sort of system there that somebody else who takes over your section can find out exactly who's received what.
the last point then is delivering the training.
once we've actually written the session we can then deliver it and the delivery is generally much more effective if we've put together material which suits their needs perfectly.
you feel more confident don't you in a group situation if you know exactly what people er er know or what they don't know, cos there's nothing worse isn't there than to go in and thinking they may already know this, i might be going in an teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, i'm not sure what they know about this.
you feel much more confident don't you if you know exactly what people need from you.
you go in feeling better and cos you feel better you'll deliver it in a much more effective way.
and the last part is something that a number of you had for your objectives is and evaluation monitoring and evaluating training.
once you've actually delivered it, you then need to find out well was it successful, did we achieve our objectives, did people learn, what we wanted them to learn.
this is the very important part of the training cycle and the cycle is incomplete cos there's no good investing in time and training is there if we don't know whether we've been 
successful or not.
if we have, great, we find out what else they need to know.
if they haven't quite got it, then we may need to re-do parts of it.
but we think the training cycle is something that's continuous.
if people are new we need to train them to get the maximum competent level don't we?
if they've been with us for quite some time there are always ways we can enhance people's skills aren't there?
there are always ways that we could make people more effective or help people to got the wrong flip, but, but to grow into other jobs.
so that's the training cycle and we believe that if you follow that approach to training, then it will help you to be very effective and successful.
that's something that we definitely do here.
right first of all i said it was an overview and that's all it was.
what we wanted to look at to start with was why training is so important, whose responsibility training is and lastly a systematic approach to training.
what we're gonna do now, it's just coming up to twenty past three, so we'll take a tea break and then after tea we'll come back and we'll spend about an hour or so looking at identifying trainees.
we'll look at what you're currently doing and we also suggest to you something that you could be doing.
any questions?
quite happy?
right, so we'll take tea then.
it's just coming up to twenty past three we'll take fifteen minutes.
that's a bit impressive dawn, fifteen minutes 
blimey.
we were only given ten on the first day.
unfortunately 
yeah and i need the diction i dunno why .
asking questions referring, do you get that situation whereby you're told something two or three times and yet they keep coming back?
is it a training need, or could it just be the fact that if they pass it on to you, they know you're dead?
two aspects of that, but i think that's a good way of identifying training.
yeah, we're on the training cycle again another one.
contact with the outside world customer services 
so what would you, how would you identify from that?
there's no margin 
so we got two then on to errors and erm complaints.
yeah?
yeah.
what you said?
yeah.
it says, you know broadening it out a bit so we can be a bit more specific.
alright.
changes in job specifications, personnel changes.
reinforced ones 
alright changes in job spec 
i procedures were introduced.
any others?
backlog 
okay.
yeah, erm
by examining people's body language .
we're not going to that one now, cos i haven't examined your body language i'm not really interested.
erm right, difficult one that it's like the body language after what?looking at do some work.
amazing 
yes, thank you for that precise definition there.
what was that, sorry?
yeah you wanna see if they can do it or not you can tell if somebody, if you give somebody something to do body language you can normally 
yeah sit at their desk .
now the thing about positives, when identify you know somebody might have training.
now be positive about it.
when they've been promoted to a high ranking job.
right, promotion.
and if you've got somebody who's gonna be promoted or you think might be promoted in a couple years' time, or even yeah less than that, well what should you be doing?
you ever heard a succession plan is?
er you probably don't do it erm you know er so brazenly probably the back of your mind but again key staff, you are key staff er yeah if you actually prepare somebody to take over your job when you're not there sort of thing.
so in a way it's a succession plan.
what other things might come out?
what do we do once a year?
review.
what?
review.
review.
anything else, appraisals, yeah things like that?
anyone else .
comprehensive list.
new recruits ask them what a good idea.
charts of asking questions, if people come to you and ask questions keep referring the same things similar things to you all the time.
perhaps it's cos they don't know the basics.
what sort of errors do they make?
persistently make errors and the same with it.
complaints from other departments and complaints from members of the public, changes in job spec er new technology perhaps er backlogs that, people always have a backlog don't they?
is it cos they're lazy, often think it's cos they're lazy don't they?
i think it's often because people are always and then it always gets put to the bottom of the pile.
things they're not so sure about .
perhaps might not be it, can't, you can't wave a magic wand and say everything's but they might not.
body language can suggest you have like jumping out a window or hanging themselves or whatever.
promotion, succession planning.
we do enough succession planning in c u you know it's magic you know, you know number two like it's smashing number two it's still you know, you know young children, number two has a different connotation to what it does here, but definitely if you are a number two here, it means the same to what a child thinks it is, but i 
er, and appraisals.
all all packets that we can use to identify i really do need people to talk to me.
alright, so that's a brief out overview if you like of some of the errors that we can do.
let's go a bit more specific job analysis.
we do the first bit who needs to be trained what do they need to know is the second 
yeah, so what they need to know and why forms a heading job analysis.
where do you get your job analysis from?
personnel.
what?
personnel.
personnel.
okay, has anyone seen their job spec?
does it actually give you any training on it?
it's very broad isn't it yeah.
erm 
oh no it's the same sort of thing you're told it when you 
you're told it aren't you?
it tends to be blocked up in somebody's mind what you do.
right, that's the other element, it's what you think they think you should be doing and it's amazing how few people, yeah that's the yeah 
i talking about, but that's what job specs are all about.
it might seem long-winded, but dependent upon er if you get it right at the start with it, it might mean that one of the things we're suggesting er you might say no, it's not for me this, but you might think that job analysis is a good way of identifying training.
what they've gotta do and why they do it.
what's the starting point for job analysis do you think?
what's the first thing you've gotta identify?
yeah, the need for the job er er yeah, not, not quite exactly what i'm looking for,the way of the trainer's dilemma isn't it?
i've got an answer for that it's not quite right, what shall i do?
can i just say no, shut up.
or should i and this is all part of it isn't it?
cos he won't say anything to me if i don't know what's wrong 
erm won't say anything else will he?
what results 
yeah, alright.
yeah okay, so we're looking for results.
the results of this person why are they employed.
so the results that we expect out the job.
if you get results it could earn a job analysis what would we do?
if i, if i was a job analysis person, what will i sit next to you wouldn't i and what would i have missed out?
right, yeah.
another word for main responsibilities.
mm, you're testing me today aren't you!
right.
key tasks what is the person's key task?
this is difficult stuff i'm not gonna spend a lot of time on this because it's covered on various other courses as well.
things like appraisal skills er level one level two, various others, other courses that we run.
there's your job the first thing i should do is say well what are the key tasks, what are the areas that would mean results?
perhaps a working demonstration might highlight something i'm trying to .
take the job of a receptionist.
who's been a receptionist?
you have haven't you elaine?
yes
right.
let's list the tasks of a receptionist.
shout now, go on,let let's go for it.
telephone, answering it 
and telephone, answer.
that's what you think they do.
er, you're right, erm i can't think of the right word er
re-route.
re-route, same thing as what you meant isn't it?
diverts, if i wrote divert up here you might use it against me in later life.
erm er route, let's just call it route er to correct yeah?
does that make sense, that's for the receptionist we don't expect her to fiddle with the rates for liability, capital or whatever do we?
anything else a receptionist does?
okay?
okay, so it's erm meet public yeah?
we need to 
right fair enough.
well i did do stat view in the first year but not very much 
yeah.
no, no i 
how to use it.
find stat view very difficult to use myself but er when the time comes, once you've got a few that are filled in we can erm well i'll show you how to do an s p s s data file and, and erm so you can bash your data in and if you bring it back we can turn it into a system file and analyze it.
erm so er that shouldn't be too bad.
so i don't know do you, do you fancy now kind of giving the different versions to a few people by way of er er
yeah.
another pilot and, and see if erm
well i'll just do it in my flat i suppose 
yeah.
yeah fair enough if, if that's erm you know how you fancy starting.
and then if you 
finish it off.
any, any sort of, yeah, any sort of changes or anything erm er i don't know if you're around sort of early next week we can
yeah.
get the
yeah.
things reprographicated and
yeah.
and er
it usually takes about three working days and er
okay.
and away you go.
how subjects are you ?
erm with a thing like this, i mean what i usually say to people it depends on erm if you've got a lot of numerical data, oh you might as well have this back for the time being so 
sweaty hands soaking into it or anything
erm er then it does help, if you're looking for p less than point o five, and aren't we all these days, erm 
you know er it helps if erm it helps if the groups that you're comparing between there's about sort of at least twenty people in each sort of thing, erm and the same goes for things like, things that you might want to do squares on or something like that erm so i mean if you were interested in comparing people who attended very regularly with people who only attended once in a while erm you know it would help if there were about sort of more than forty people altogether so that there was sort of, you know 
mm.
you could median split them at whatever the medium was and then you've got two groups to compare erm because it usually looks quite nice if you've got something comparative as well as looking at the average sort of, you know, pattern of responses on the questionnaire.
equally if you've got erm i don't know what other kinds of differences you might want to erm er look for but again if you're looking for differences it helps if there's about sort of twenty people in each of the groups sort of thing.
or if you're comparing people with themselves as it were, that is looking for differences between how they answer one question and how they answer another question, then sort of , you know, kind of twenty or more people and you've got a reasonable chance of showing up some, some p less than point o fives.
erm i don't know that's, this is not in any official stats books but it's just my experience with students' projects that if you get more than, there's a sort of critical mass of about, about forty respondents and then you're much more likely to start showing some interesting statistically significant findings for some reason, erm i don't quite know why but er it's one of life's little mysteries but er so that's usually if there's a lot of numerical data what i'd try and advise people to er to get.
oh that's 
so you know i mean more than that by all means, you know, er so much the better, you know y the more the merrier but erm certainly you know kind of it's a good idea to at least try and get that many erm
yeah.
so er
i've got, i've got in touch with a football supporters society
mm.
and erm they've got eighty members so 
oh right.
mhm.
so they're like sending me a list, well they sent me back a half list 
mm.
i said to them can i have a list they said oh yeah sure she went we'll put it in your 
mm.
mm.
pigeon hole, you know it's just like bit of, scrap of paper with like a few names on it
mm.
and they said oh we'll get the list to you, the full list to you as soon as possible i mean 
yeah.
that was about two weeks ago 
yeah.
well i mean it's often things that people do in their spare time the, the record keeping isn't perfect and, and 
yeah that's the thing they haven't got time, yeah.
they don't have a, you know, kind of computer based mailing list that they can print out or something you know?
no yeah i know that so 
mm.
so i should
yeah.
if i, if i get in touch with them then i'll 
mm.
yeah i mean that might certainly give you some, you know, kind of you know regular attenders to er to, to
yeah.
to look at erm so er yeah
great.
are you into football very much yourself or er
yeah.
oh right mm so it's, it, this, this emerges out of a personal interest thing?
yeah 
oh right.
mm.
yeah i support bristol city
oh right.
are you from that part of the world at all or?
er forest of dean.
oh right so er mm
yeah it's the nearest place really.
yeah within the nearest place with a biggish
with a yeah.
football team possibly yeah.
anyway
right.
right so er 
i think that's everything.
yeah.
so if i get it laid out again then, you know
yeah fine erm but as i say it's just sort of you know kind of minor layout changes, that's all i was suggesting
yeah.
so you know at a pinch you could probably run it like that and i don't suppose anybody would notice the difference but, you know, just in terms of you know making things look attractive
right.
erm so you know but you may find if you give, print off a few and give them to a few people over the weekend
mm.
you may find that some additional changes occur to you
mm.
which you might want to incorporate anyway so you may not want to print off another version anyway
yeah.
so er
erm oh yeah the other thing was it's two sided at the moment, is that
mm.
best or do you think 
erm generally speaking the consensus is it helps if it's sort of on one side
oh right.
but how you do your original is up to you i mean it's just what we ask for from reprographics and you know they do single sided 
okay yeah.
double sided, collated, stapled
different coloured paper and all, you know, all this sort of thing
yeah.
so er erm er so that's no, is there anything else we need to worry about with regard to that?
er no i don't think so.
so as i say i think it'll, i think it'll, it'll run okay and behave itself on the assumption you can get some people to fill it in so er
yeah.
yeah right.
right, good.
okay.
well do have er a pleasant weekend
okay.
mm.
i shall try to.
yeah.
and yourself 
oh yes i could do with one.
are you working?
yeah well i'm, i'm gonna try and get the final year lecture for tuesday sorted actually on saturday and erm it's usually, it's usually guy but i think i'm doing it this week, yeah, because i've got quite a few to do on things like racist in the media and guy's mate dennis has just written a book and he's given me a manuscript of it and it's about how racist psychology is which is
really?
yeah and he's spotted racism in the atkinson et al textbook and all sorts of, all over the place so erm mm there should be something interesting to talk about in that for a start.
yeah.
so er anyway
okay.
more of this on tuesday.
see you 
mm.
bye then.
mm.
oh hello.
so what have we got, have they sent me some new textbooks?
oh lovely.
but one's for you and one's for guy
oh i see, oh blimey.
ah.
have you finished in there now?
erm yes i've finished with the students 
oh right, oh i didn't realize, there were just two parcels on the erm
yeah look
on the thing and, and i picked them both up 
you see.
i thought they were both for me.
oh dear.
ah!
oh well erm 
yeah i didn't fancy 
let's see 
going up to the senile 
no i don't i don't blame you.
erm
i sort of started to feel a bit ill before so 
yeah.
well do er do come in er well did you have a pleasant trip down?
erm yeah it was okay, it wasn't too bad.
mm.
alright cos i think we've been sent these on approval to see if we want to adopt them for course material 
yeah.
you see so erm
they seem quite nice.
yeah.
erm well i, i don't know quite what erm they'll be teaching you out of in your er abnormal course but erm er i do find the, the the sort of current generation of american textbooks quite erm
mm.
quite a nice, quite exciting erm i tell you what, swivel that swivel chair round and, and sit on that
okay.
do you have a drink please or 
yes of course.
now erm what sort of flavours appeal?
now we've got ordinary tea, we've got herbal tea, we've got coffee out of a coffee machine, we've got lapsang souchong, we've got ordinary tea i've mentioned that already haven't i?
erm
we've got soap powder and shampoo
oh i'll have some sort of tea, that'll do.
yeah.
well we've got, what about some, some lapsang?
it's sort of lapsang teabags, that's quite 
yeah.
quite refreshing, i've had a lot of coffee already today.
i'll just go and fill the kettle.
okay.
are you going to eat this cheese roll?
well would you like some?
i'll have a bit.
yeah.
erm it's not too 
what's in the middle?
elderly it's cheese and pickle
oh good, i can't 
oh well yeah, got you there.
erm yeah if er you have no objection, what it's for is the, there's this outfit called the british national corpus and they're trying to make a record of english language as it's used in the late twentieth century erm so it's a sort of resource for further scholarship so it can assist in writing dictionaries and studying grammar and, and all sorts of things like that and erm they're attempting to tape conversations from all over the place erm er i've got a bit of bumph about it, it's quite interesting erm and in some cases it's sort of out of erm er it's out of people's homes, it's out of broadcasts, it's out of meetings, it's out of all sorts of things erm at work and at home erm 
have you just turned it on now?
yeah it's, it's just on at the moment er they didn't hear any the other stuff
oh.
erm so
oh yes it's oxf er oxford university press, chambers dictionaries, british library, lancaster university oxford university erm so er it's erm quite interesting so 
do you mind if i have a cigarette?
no go ahead
are you sure?
go ahead i don't, no i don't mind people smoking in here, it's fine by me.
so er oh dear, oh i'm a bit frazzled.
frazzled?
yeah i mean it er i was up till about two a m so er 
what, marking?
well i've just about finished marking for the moment, er what it is erm i went out last night, ill advised 
goes 
sure you don't want to go badminton, mm, ah?
no
no
it's too muddy out
no it's not 
ah, when?
where?
it might 
where?
it's hot
erm have a bath
there are
what's this for?
come on
yeah
yeah it will, ah?
no
what, what's that?
do what?
what's that?
oh, what do you mean?eh?
what do you mean?
if you like, ain't you got none?
i only want ten
i ain't got that many
what?
can you lend us
no i haven't got any money
er done a hole there, it's not even going through the hole
turn that handle, see you later then
no i want a pound, lends us a pound jo
no
yeah
no
yeah
i haven't got a pound on me
show us can you lend us a pound?
no
please
no
please
i haven't got any money neil, i just told you
ah?
it's not my fault
it's not mine either
just give me your change then
i haven't got any change 
well, how, your coppers, you must have a pound tucked away somewhere mum, mum
have a game of something neil, then you won't have to go into town will you?
not staying here with you just because you're bored i ain't
i'm not bored
eh?
shut up parrot 
me a pound after what i've just done for you out there
oh wowee
i didn't have to help you
no you didn't, but you did
er how often has it not 
you won't get any money, go away
i only want one pound
why?
cos i don't
for fags?
how often is it that i have asked you for money?
never, but you don't usually get any from me that's why you've never asked.
i, i
i don't normally ask you anyway
well what, what do you want it for?
please sis
no i won't
please sis
no i haven't got any change
yes you have
look in my purse, i haven't got any money 
please sis 
oh neil
please, i'm, come on
i've not got any money
not even a fifty p?
no cos i used that to go to
oh come on you must have some change
to be
or not to be, oh no come on sis
no
i'll do anything please i, i 
you, you clean my black boots for me, polish my black boots for me and i give you a quid
when i come back
no, no you do it now or you don't get your pound
what these ones?
yeah
alright then i tell you something if i clean these and i don't get that pound
yes you will, you'll definitely get a pound
if i clean these and i don't get a pound these are going in the pond 
i promise you a pound if you 
and then they walk in the bin so i suggest you don't give me any hassle 
oh i'll give you , i'll give you a pound don't worry, make sure you do the job properly, mm you'd better do it outside, cos the er, the boot polish don't go on the carpet.
ah look at this mum look i'm wiping for a pound
alright
if i can see my face in them you, you might have a tip
see you've got your purse in your bag you better give me the money 
why wait in the car breaker, breaker
no
come round
see he does it with my voice.
now your at home
yeah 
innit?
no, no, like you, like you say is any one tape the first tape you fill in it 
no but i mean you've got to fill in after all this?
yeah i
what's that bit stuck on
what's, what's all that off?
it's his hairstyle
are you sure you turned that bleeding kettle off?
i have
well why's it still steaming then?
cos it's hot
and the frying pan not really i think the taste is distorted or something
the taste gone wrong, erm, what you want?
what shall i put?
which part, how do i write
erm
is the alphabetic
yeah
what?
is derrick about?
oh derrick and jo went up to london today
i don't know something to do with erm sports i suppose well, or some entertainment i suppose
yum yum it's like 
i suppose 
yesterday and it's worse, worse today than when i done it yesterday 
got a sports thing yet?
no, where's, where's that then?
go and pump, pump some weights today
you can go and do that can't you?,
no
don't you?
how can i do it, i've got to get in the building first 
old shaun name's on the old run machine today
yeah
that won't last will it?
mm, no 
sheila a housekeeper, colin a
neil unemployed, bird a pain in the butt , what sex is he anyway?
what?
is it male or female?
female
female
country
no 
do you want one?
no thank you, have your shorts on then?
i suppose sometimes they tape and there's nothing on there at all 
good oh
the tapes
what's that then?
got to erase forty five minutes before anyone says anything i suppose 
what?
trying to think what to put down your relationship here 
whose?
his
oh
the bird cor, better
oh yes
god don't start him off again
pretty boy oh 
can do with some fags
pardon?
can do with some fags
oh, tell them a joke here
pardon?
tell them
yeah
performance today, yeah, what's on down there?
ten pin bowling
who give you that?
post
by post
through the post
you
or something
mind
you save five pounds wet wet's
they've sold out geoff and er trevor's off to see him ain't he?
his mum got him tickets
oh well
wet wet wet, not wet wet 
try and make then laugh i suppose
oh did he?
yeah
they seem so
who?
trevor
come back before the end of march i think
yeah
well she said in the letter didn't she
yeah
she was coming back home and out again, did tony have a letter from her?
no
oh dear 
have a nice kip, it's, it's
mm?
come down, is that a yes?
ah 
i suppose nigel
i told you everyone's coming
no you didn't, you
i don't know
i think he's putting one there, one out, one there, one there, one outside that door
you can't we've only got two lights here
yeah i think he, i think he's, i've explained like everything, we're just paying the money for it that is all
oh is that what he said?
yeah
oh
he's putting one outside that door, one outside that one, one out the front and
yeah because you, you mentioned you wanted one out there didn't you, cos
and wanted a light switch there
actually i want get one
get one of the extension
you know it's
what it is, is that anything
is likely to come on
yes, yes i know, i've heard it jumping about ain't he?
who?
him
it come on
i might ask if he can put one of those things in the bathroom
what's that then?
hands, get all the steam out 
what an extractor fan?
that's it, that's the word
cos when you have a bath all the, you know, put the fan on and all the steam'll go out, rather cling to the walls and that.
like a sauna in there when you have a shower
i suppose he knows what he's doing
be a bit of drilling i suppose won't it?
all they have to do is drill there well he won't do no drilling
he will
why?
he's gonna have to drill
oh yeah,
put the cables through won't he?
mm and that one there, and oh 
i
that'll
is there any water in it?
what was?
comes off
yeah that's what i said to you didn't i?
only when i take them off
danny, danny come up over my socks
no one 's asking you are they?
oh god 
cor strewth
see even now mum you can't see when you're doing the washing up 
i suppose your
finished early yesterday
pardon, what did you say neil?
i thought darren was meant to finish early yesterday 
eh?
what colour is that then?
er
oh, see you later 
baby 
alright, alright
hold on a minute there darling
i thought you'd done it before
oh yeah this is a 
has daniel
down there?
would he hell
said he was
i went
this morning i said enjoyed your weekend then, she said oh yeah, i said how's daniel then?
daniel she says, danny weren't there i said well jean said, she said well jean wouldn't know him if he come and sat on her lap so she said no he weren't there, said erm i used to go down there, she said she was very good.
yeah
and erm
no see what's happened you see, that's gotta go
young bloke was down there, she said it was a good weekend really, she said they took their own drink.
yeah they took their own drink at the bar there
she said i reckon we saved er fifty pound she said
yeah, that's er
i think it went like that before and you fixed it in the
no i can't cos i, i can't screw it in there, that's sitting there look see, see that, that
in there look, if i can get that out i'll be able to
see if i can get that out love
i
no i can't, no not there
let's have it then
no, no you can't love, because
we've done it at work
go on then that is the same thickness as that in there, that is
what's that there then?
that's what that, that's come off there that has
well you pull it out don't you?
go on then you try and pull it out of us, that's what i'm trying to do look 
you want a pair of pliers do you?
have then, it's harder than what you think it is this
ah?
it's harder than what you think it is this 
oh, i wonder why this was
yeah
i suppose that's why it went, sucking it up properly i suppose she had it riding up
had a tug at it and that's what rips it i suppose
yeah 
i'll get you a pair of pliers?
you can get, you can get, you can get whatever you like darling, but you won't get that in there pliers, you won't get that in there, what i'll try and do is get a
what about cut through, what do you reckon?
well
with that, let's have a go
want a cup of tea?
i suppose you've been whistling today
no 
well we'll have to do upstairs, hoover that much longer
why's that then?
oh cos when i've been doing it
has been up there nattering, it's been noticed, so norren come up to me today and she said oh er you don't have to do upstairs she said, give it a couple of weeks she said and you won't have to do it any more
why's that then?
so i said well why's that then norren?
i've got used to doing it now, you know?
yeah
well she said she's got a lot of scrubs to do and all that business
yeah
so she said while you've been doing that she said she's been sort of gassing to anybody you know, so she said it's been mentioned by management and they said oh well she'll be able to sort of hovering while she stood there you know, time, time to natter she could be erm, got time to do that.
yeah so i said oh i see, so that was that, so i think they've got a, a meeting in a couple of weeks and they'll sort of tell her discreetly that she has to carry on and do it what she's been the
time sort of thing you know, so, said it's been noticed that like
and all that you know?
yeah
but erm, you know, get
it's got to be scrubbed more often so you know
normally
that is the same thickness as what this i think can you hold that dear?
i'm surprised joy didn't say something about it yesterday actually joanne
perhaps she didn't have it
she done quite a bit of hovering really
oh that's good then, yeah
is it alright now?
well, yeah
it'll only pop out i suppose won't it?
well it have to pop out but it keeps popping back in again that's all that is
sorry
alright thank you, prefers than what you done last time
yeah better than that, yeah
how's your mouth then?
alright 
where's the other lighter?
there in here
oh i see.
where's samuel
where's samuel's?
what er, tony out
has he?
yeah
what she want in there for then?
i don't know, i asked him to meet me at
oh cock a fan, come on then, now don't bite back you beastly little parrot you 
you put it, you put it on
oh god yeah
tommy 
shh
good morning 
oh what have you got to do erm, college
i think that's what he's gone down for i think
is it?
oh
yeah should of asked erm jean, asked er whatever her name is, for the details
yeah but
but she said he's now going er, erm october
who is?
daniel 
this is february, october
yeah
this is february ain't it so he goes
what does he, be getting it again, but he hasn't done it yet has he?
no but he's due, he's booked in for erm
oh oh
what's a matter with you then?
about what?
goes to show it's been used then don't it?
oh yeah, what did you get that bloody cable over
pardon?
where'd you put that cable?
oh oh 
excuse me
what?
this carpet gets filthy
ah?
oh you need to be a bloody
to get these damn things off, look
well you should of got bigger size shouldn't you?
will they do?
yeah 
i bet that
was the first too i suppose
this friday i think
what this friday?
yeah
what shall we post it or shall we give it to her?
pardon?
post
oh you can post it, yeah
oh it's nice to take the weight off my feet
well you've sat on your arse all day as well 
no i haven't
oh that makes a change then
ah?
trying to get work
who?
erm
yes please
what?
all of them please have you got those, all of them did the shop sell
this morning, those potatoes
yeah
oh they call it
oh i thought you did
no i didn't, no
cos i say cos erm bill never got a bag, and it four pounds something now
where'd he get it from?
oh i don't know, but it was
i don't know
her last ones, about two pound something a bag
they're two fifty a bag in there 
ain't you?
yeah
weather i suppose got something to do with it had a weekend down there with her and ant
oh yeah
cos she weren't very well really
no, no, they broke down didn't they?
ah?
they broke down
oh i dunno she didn't say nothing about that
yeah, no, she and colin they broke down they, they broke down at the
oh she didn't, no
yeah, they got they'd got half hour's drive from minehead and that their car broke down, they had to go up, they had to call the, was it the a are they?
oh yeah
they got there but they had to go in second gear look
oh dear, oh i wonder how they'd got down there, i wonder whether they sort of 
no they got down
got down at their own steam i suppose
yeah they went down in convoy car and i think they, four or five cars went down there
oh yeah
there were sixteen of them, sixteen of them all there 
sixteen?
yeah sixteen of them, well the more of them you see the cheaper it is
yeah she said that er they walked into minehead on sunday
oh yeah, jean told me 
she said no , jean said oh i can't walk that, have a bloody heart attack she says, so they put her in a trolley
they put her in a bloody trolley and oh course she said, this woman said erm
said she might be small she said but she ain't half put on some weight you know
oh yeah
you know?
yeah
so i said well i don't, i don't look at her and i sort of see
she said yeah she said sorted that out and put her in a trolley
yeah but she had to walk back that way didn't she?
did she?
yeah she went to, she went to the shops and got one of those trolleys, she said what for?
she said i want to go to minehead now, what she said it's only just up there, yeah i know but i've, i've bloody got to climb down there and bloody try and get back she says, er
well it's not that she, it was affecting the drink she had you know
oh i see
she said the drink, the drinks are quite expensive down there
yeah, i'm glad they took their, took their own
yeah cos what, what they said like, their own, cos they run out of wine at the bar and er, they went in the supermarket and got two bottles of wine and kept them on the table you see
oh
so, they said 
what was it?
the wine that have in the bog, is that a cheap wine?
yeah
well they ran it like that cos they said at the bar we can sell you a bottle of wine for seven pound fifty though, so he said you bugger off he said that, went down the supermarket and get our own like
oh
and of course the bloke that were drinking that he kept, then they buy a
bottle and erm they used to queue at the table that for the
you know
oh yeah
used to just keep topping that you know
i thought they'd be more into spirits than wine
well there were spirits weren't there, vodka and all that, you know, no i suppose one or two drunk the old wine you know
oh yeah 
but she said, oh she said, they and that, they rented the horses that go up and down you know
they've got a
down there?
oh yeah, oh god almighty, everything's free, once you've paid your entrance fee everything's free now look
yeah, quite right run now innit, cos that's where susan took her dad weren't it, minehead down there, that way
susan took ?
who?
took who?
took us, that's where we went down minehead through there
oh, when?
when we went for that there
oh not me
no, no
oh no erm, oh the
yes, i said it was all
let us make our way there, we'd get lost
who?
no go and have a look see what it's like
most probably end up in wales
pardon?
we'd most probably end up in wales or something
i'd go and ring barry up then 
so what you gonna do for eats tomorrow then?
well you won't have much time now to eat
no don't, i shall, if i'm home by, only if i got back by five, i, i better
thought you taking in geoffrey
no i'm not taking geoffrey in, he's going with his mate now lives
no but i thought he was
where to park
yeah what i'll do, i'll see them all look, each even about twenty six
oh yeah
and what we do we meet up by the golf course
got a bit of interference there
yeah, ah, we meet up by the golf course, cos time i pick
david up
david up you there see, i've got to
the golf course up
so they'll wait for you there then are they?
well i can get
oh yeah
and i see, when he sees me park there, flash me, i just follow on, you know 
so i
what he can do is have something when he gets up, rather than the old
something sort of 
yeah well, i don't, i don't get a dinner before i go up to bed.
well what you got then?
i don't know i think it's wednesday week 
well before i go to bed i have baked beans on toast or something like that you know, it's, it's not
pardon?
ah?
oh god
all of a sudden i'll be home, cor strewth
you didn't have any of that stuff today then did you?
yeah i had a glass this morning
did you?
yeah, i've got the shits now i tell yeah
eating too much, i suppose if you had a little glass, then just one
of that stuff, then some all bran, you won't be so bad
no
in fact you had too much you see
no i don't think so
cos you lost none have you?
yes
where?
i have done i've 
let me see then, round your kneecaps?
no i have, i have lost it, i tell you what, now listen
don't you start splattering at me mate
now look, this
had been a, a mark going around that, right and that's what
i have lost it though, i have 
there are, don't tip that over the cloth then
alright then, come on then you know i forgot i didn't have me keys with me this morning, of course the first one
didn't you have your sandwiches then?
i just, i had erm soft bread you know get that cut that bread
did you?
did you have that luncheon meat that's in there?
yeah
you did
there's two slices left, i shall have that tomorrow
no, no i'm not that keen on it i just have a couple of biscuits and a cup of tea when i come home
yeah 
oh yeah i'll get some more thursday 
yes, what biscuits do you want, big ones?
yeah, i think i'll borrow er one of sue's one of
i, are
there's more on there than what they thought or something, apparently keeps her cakes in it, so i said
come then 
are you on lates next week?
no
mo 
oh i just wondered, here are
ah?
i just wondered if you had anything planned for the weekend that oh 
what number is nigel at then?
erm, oh sixty erm, sixty three
oh that's better then innit?
so what end'll that be then?
swallow end
who?
swallow end, erm
if that's it then i can er write her card out later on
oh if you like i can put it through her door
oh that's alright she must be about er sixty four, five i suppose
ah?
i say she should be about sixty four, erm eight four
is she eighty four?
yeah
dunno 
ah?
no they're alright aren't they?
do you like them?
those other ones they come off it i think
what ones?
walnut
no, i just
really
yeah 
they always did taste a bit funny you know, didn't they?
i mean they
is this still running is it?
yeah
battery gone flat though is
is it?
yeah 
ah 
yeah
all of it?
yeah, don't usually get them for nothing
three, four out, half a dozen
no tomorrow, i went into town and then i went to emma's
oh did you?
yeah
did you have a look at the wallpaper?
i forgot all about it, when i got to emma's then i realized, i'm going over
i don't usually buy that sort anyway but the last couple of
they've got so much work, those safety ones
that's it, yeah
cor they dunno
well they would i
oh dear
all depends on the nature of
they won't need
if they thought it was that bad they would of picked it up on the m o t wouldn't they?
that's what they said, cos i, i said is it something that has to be checked regularly, he said no, it doesn't really go that often
yeah
so erm something
so you'd be paying out for some more tyres if you don't have that checked or anything
yeah
ain't you?
so emma's given me his present to drop round, ha
how long
she doesn't finish work until about half past five
oh
and in between time she goes to meet gordon so er 
oh yeah 
i don't know where they live, i know the court but i don't know whereabouts they are.
no
only where erm mrs and that live and that's about it 
done me ironing and got that out the way
oh yeah
quite damp out there really, when i ironed it
my
rice crispies out of date, chocolate ones
where's neil then?
gone down town to get a butlin's erm brochure, whatever they call it
why's he hope to go on holiday then?
hope to go on holiday
no
have you sorted out that tape?
ah?
pardon?
what do you want steak and kidney pie and erm a bit of potato?
or something
yeah alright then
there's a potato in there, thought rather to use that
who?
oh yeah they've got something like that down erm
they roll it out on the dance floor upstairs
something like that i suppose 
that's right, it's on now that is.
talking is it?
what's it called love?
neville's .
who?
neville .
oh!
you got any first class stamps anywhere?
yeah?
i'm a first erm class si stamps.
stamps?
yeah.
cos i've got i've got a couple here twenty four pence.
fifty, fifty pence?
no, i got some green in here.
erm two pence.
no i can't find any.
.
here are, er
four at twenty four pence and two at two pence.
so that's .
and that if i post it tomorrow friday.
so if i put a twenty four one on then it could leave that like that, right?
don't want her to pay any out at the other end do we?
oh yeah.
you don't know what second class post is do you, first?
no, i guess that'll be thirty four or something.
the book.
twenty, a couple of twenty four pence ones here but joy reckons it's more than that.
no, just 
yes i put a twenty four pence one on and a two pence one.
cos don't want her to pay any at the other end do i?
and i post it tomorrow er, thursday.
ah this pick this up in derek's office today look.
and if i just go to clean and erm
this what do you reckon?
yes.
where they going to that?
wembley aren't they?
to see er queen.
oh that's right!
easter monday.
and the other one's simply red i think.
how much did they pay for a ticket then, how much?
i dunno.
i have to ask when he comes tonight.
he put that up today.
he thought about it last week but it's pretty hush hush i think.
yeah.
oh dear!
have a look,.
yeah, he got something, you know?
that's right.
ian and i, just going with six of them or something.
or perhaps he's going up in his van or some i dunno!
well cos, you gotta get in early cos everybody else is sort of erm 
they were so popular last year.
cos the er you know they'll be
yeah, it had football tomorrow.
mm.
is it on?
yeah.
yeah.
just switched it on.
playing.
oh yeah.
take these couple of tapes off.
oh yeah , yeah!
it is.
yeah , that's my brilliant idea!
i'll take it football.
yeah, take it to football.
oh yeah, see how people sort of natter on.
natter on, yeah.
you know sometimes .
fight!
and swear!!
the first tape we played back and it was him eating toast!
god, it was like ooh it was terrible!
yeah.
so, as if the blooming whole thing was distorted or something.
sounded like,was it?
ooh ee ooh!
ooh eh !
i shall remember that now.
ee er!
so you won't be able to wear his bottom ones out will he cos he ain't got nothing to grind on now!
we didn't turn the window light on.
i says this week .
yeah, didn't want to trouble you.
what time you coming up?
so he's standing right the other 
yeah.
end.
you'll have a light there and a light there, all on 
ooh!
together.
that's great isn't it?
because that switch there
yeah.
is to the entrance.
is that light that light.
yeah.
what this one?
yeah.
well i ain't got nothing yet.
after christmas .
no!
don't make no difference.
well, the only trouble is if you did put that one i must admit.
yeah, what i thought see, if you come out and i'm covering the door and this light on you'll be able to see straight away.
yeah.
yeah.
see look if i sort of turn round
yeah, like briony 
and got 
she comes in here, so she 
yeah.
switches that on to sort out her .
yeah.
cos i got help her with that.
see we could put the outside light there.
, yeah just right.
you sure it looks ?
well, if it's not right, know what i meant.
they're not yours!
they are!
i bought those when we went to football!
i was at the !
oh my god!
he dived on the .
what i'll do is put your clips up the top here and then erm
burn them!
just let it at the bottom.
don't wanna keep the chairs..
and then someone .
hey?
er i don't care!
don't you care?
no.
you saying about having so some chips, i think you could have had it in here!
that's twenty five six.
god!
could have had some in, some in here couldn't he?
could of had a bit of mash and could of had a bit of mashed potato and couple of eggs or something.
couple of sausages.
yes i know.
we did offer him some ice cream but he said no thank you.
no,.
i never said that.
oh you had again didn't you?
what?
them cheese fritters?
those
they're nice 
peas.
they are, mushy peas.
mushy peas.
mhm.
they must squash them in the hand and just throw it in mustn't they?
well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
so i'm off in to watch eastenders then.
no.
yep, yep, yep!
are you a good ?
like that.
you try it .
no, that's mine!
oh is it?
oh!
now what does nigel want a climbing rose for?
eh?
what does nigel want a climbing rose for?
i don't know.
bought that anyway.
how old?
yeah.
cor!
ah?
i reckon my nappies!
thank you.
right thank you very much.
aha!
bye!
oh!
that's got mandy to work.
oh dear!
did you li 
what are you, what is there to do now then?
i dunno.
mind your back.
okay.
there's a hole in my bucket 
do you want peas with it or not?
peas.
, that one.
ah christ i've only just got in mama!
oh you'll want half a tin won't you?
you could store these for another two years mum.
what is that love?
it's got b dot b dot e october ninety four.
oh!
salt.
oh you want that switched off, okay.
oh
that's it then.
they're off.
so what we 
that's the, that's the big one there.
yeah.
point.
that's not, that's the light one
that's right, yeah.
that you've just taken out.
that and the fridge one i'll have to take everything
this one innit?
what, what we'll do is i 
oh 
if i cut that off there.
still wouldn't shift it dummy!
i'll plug it in 
aha.
and you won't be using that again.
no.
and i'll rip them out properly af thursday, when i take that one out as well.
okay.
alright.
and that thing's jammed on us!
just plug it in .
alright, that's enough.
yeah.
they're a bit old anyway!
bit old, this programme innit?
yeah.
what did you want to scrub this.
they come handy don't they?
mm.
no, i thought you wanted one.
oh no, i don't need one, no.
alright.
he's quite happy to undo the the squashed .
oh god!
friends?
i tell you, i go i tell you neil you're very perpetual.
you stopped going .
mm.
and a long time, innit?
what?
well
starkness though.
and you haircut 
haircut at last!
what's up doc!
yeah, i think i know it as well.
all gums.
goody goody gum drops!
gummy!
oh yeah, that's good !
gummy, gummy 
his first name.
well i .
now that's a loaded question innit?
gonna put foot in his mouth now!
it's not,on my side of the story!
are you gonna put your teeth in neil?
eh?
both feet gone!
don't on the plate then.
there's no room is there?
no.
want some of it taken off then?
yeah!
go on!
if there's anything on that doorstep, give us your plate.
oh ee ee!
christ, only wanna fit in my mouth!
ta.
th they let me have these scales.
i was working right up to then.
so then you put and then pop them in to
ya.
oh!
i'll go look in there when that .
mm mm mm, mm mm .
can't take them in there can i?
yeah, something .
oh i should get something now.
it'll definitely be here won't it?
don't you worry about it.
i made last year's.
take some sandwiches, a flask of tea.
yeah.
what do you reckon?
mm.
egg sandwiches?
enjoy them won't you?
yeah.
that's if i have had any left and he notices they're there.
jammy tyke!
before.
what, everything okay, yeah?
well i mean the sooner that's .
chips and everything else on it.
yeah.
mind!
drinks when you brush your glass on them.
well i, didn't you do that mum?
i couldn't understand what?
well they can be tipped back in the tin then can't they?
mhm.
mash that in and you can have butter on if you wanted to.
no roast potatoes will be fine.
yeah.
wha 
they can throw dinner on this.
mhm.
shall i take quite a few egg sandwiches alright?
mum?
eh?
i'll take quite a few egg sandwiches.
yeah, i'll make a load.
yeah, i expect egg ones .
dunno!
in about quarter to six or something isn't he?
quarter past five.
quarter past five?
yeah.
down the site bloody thing!
i'm gonna cut a load and go pick david up i suppose innit?
mm?
ta,.
oh no!
no!
i want my mug.
alright?
you're afterwards aren't you then?
they me , they're doing a good job!
well so have you then!
no.
don't forget at quarter past five.
no, mum said quarter to six!
i'm just correcting her!
right then.
!
that's right.
ha?
so i erm what did you say neil?
i say, not in there neil.
what's what?
what's for what?
tracksuit bottoms.
which ones?
the boys ones there.
i found that in there.
yeah.
is there anything inside?
what this?
yeah.
why?
i just wondered.
cos that was wa , wet as well.
only carl's lighter.
who?
carl's lighter.
oh yeah, so i put my lighter in there my er tracksuit bottoms or something.
oh i see.
but now it's run out i don't bother.
there's lighter up here.
doesn't work.
why, what's the matter with it then?
you go to light it.
see, just keep going so the flint's gone.
oh!
that's gone home now.
here are mate, let's have a look at it.
.
still, bit cheap to buy ain't they?
only thirty pence aren't they?
well i shall use my black .
eh?
i'm gonna use my black one.
oh yeah.
twenty for a pound.
oh yeah.
had it a long time haven't you?
eh?
dunno.
yeah, i can go out mum?
eh?
i can go out.
anyone want a cup of tea?
yes please.
eh?scratch her eyes out innit?
it's about your , could of caught that look.
oh don't start !
dave's all lovey-dovey when nig is around ain't he?
yeah.
showing off though.
try to impress.
well i'm glad anybody has a bit of .
do you want a cup of tea neil?
well i dunno.
right!
erm i'm going to the bank let's wake this lot up!
where do you go for that, bath travel for that then neil?
where?
for that brochure.
bath travel, where's that?
no, where do you get the thing from then?
what?
butlins?
well i got it from that travel agents
oh!
er the one
in the precinct?
by, yeah, by boots.
oh yeah.
do you want
take that.
put it put it in that one.
ooh!
i dunno what we're talking about here!
eh?
could i take the sausage rolls and chicken to school?
do you wanna take something strong now nig?
yes please.
right.
i've got some.
do you mind!
your dad's 
well she used to come in erm may to december didn't she?
mm.
chip butty then?
eh?
want a chip butty?
mm mm.
for a long time 
mm mm.
have you?
no, cos i've never had chips have i?
they don't have meat in do they?
i don't think joanne's done so well in bar now.
why?
just so they can have a day off or something.
one of the girls have got bronchitis so
mm.
is she going in the car?
no, she's going by train.
cheaper than the car by the time you've paid petrol there and back again.
what are you watching .
why?
just wondered.
who?
six thirty.
i thought you'd already .
otherwise i'll walk home, i've done it before.
no.
there's round that all out there later on then?
i should put a tape 
no,
by pass brian.
go and see the if you wanted them.
well i can for two hours mum.
mm?
what?
those are done properly, not just slapped on anyhow!
five pound for two hours.
your cheap then ain't you?
very nice!
no, five pound an hour.
oh.
and whatever time i'll 
yeah , why not!
would you rather have a cup of tea?
tell you what i'll charge you qui , twenty quid for the whole day.
what?
twenty quid for the whole day.
oh well emma only charged that to do the lounge!
i know.
and that was wallpapering that was!
i know, i'm gonna paper.
cos i'm hard up for money mum!
do you want a cup of tea as well?
mhm.
there's only four of us isn't there?
mm.
does dad want one?
yeah.
i'll go and look for some wallpaper .
got enough there ain't you?
no.
no?
men, ha!
out there.
yours and dad's over here.
finished in there.
do you want this do you, anywhere?
er stick that up there.
i expect the oven's turned off.
i can hang on.
no, but i expect it's too hot in there crack the dishes.
it's alright.
jesus christ!
what?
mm?
oh, bloody ages!
neil phoned me.
i don't care!
hopefully 
i 
so first, so don't give me that!
and neil did cos he was on when you was out there.
no he didn't!
yes he did!
he didn't!
where are you going to football tomorrow night?
why, do you wanna come?
with dad and with dave the butcher.
is there enough room for me in the back, and neil?
cos i'm not going to reading tomorrow so i'm, i might as well go to football tomorrow instead use that 
oh yeah.
money.
erm ?
yeah.
well he's a bit scared though and we assured him there's no violence and 
ha!
what's that lovey?
joanne and 
he's got a full pint mug!
are you going to football tomorrow?
eh?
football?
yeah.
is there enough room for me to go?
of course there is!
what about neil as well?
er yes!
okay.
i was gonna go to reading but erm sally-ann can't make it cos there's someone ill at work.
so erm the money that i was gonna you know, use for that i'll use for the ticket.
yeah, but you're going off early though, what time's neil finish work then?
well no, neil said quarter six we were going.
but i mean, he can, he's at king's anyway tomorrow so it won't take him long to get home.
well you can pick him up on the way then couldn't you?
yeah, what time does he finish work then jo?
well about five-ish, but i mean he'll be ready for quarter to six
er
or whatever time you need to go.
well i if you if he takes some old clothes with him love
mm.
and then see we , he'd probably wanna get home and then get changed properly.
have something to eat quick.
or else a , or else half past at the latest, set a time.
yeah,, thing is, you won't be able to get .
yeah, it only takes him about ten minutes to get home.
can always do some sandwiches.
yeah.
oh yeah 
i erm 
make your own boiled egg sandwiches.
i'm seeing him later anyway so
yeah.
i'll find out more about it.
well take him, take him so love.
yes.
okay then.
mm.
cos yes, something down there's gonna be pretty dear innit?
yeah well they got 
what they, what we got i tell you.
is there?
yeah.
we'll take your flask.
what about tickets?
we gonna have to get tickets when we get there?
no.
how will , how will i know then?
, yeah.
dan .
okay.
great!
alright then?
great!
they will have to pay innit?
it's too late!
just as well you ain't coming!
eh?
i dunno, might sneak in the boot yet mate!
well, the back's on the ground straight away!
have to get your dad to get a ro , roof rack and put it on there.
a big belly 
michelin michelin woman!
alright?
cheers mum!
oh joanne don't want any does she?
no.
she don't blooming want a cup!
eh?
she don't blooming want a cup!
no, she said .
you never told me that when we phoned up them .
pardon?
what one?
well course you leave them alone didn't i?
that's what they bought it for!
obviously confused !
i didn't take .
alright, thank you.
well she 
well she said don't touch that it was now mine.
i said that!
yes i did!
you weren't listening i don't expect.
knowing you do 
why?
have you told her dad?
don't, now just don't start up!
did you touch them?
no.
oh what a shame!
it was tough.
is that right?
now perfect they'll be 
they will be.
not this is the go , like my sister alma
mm.
when we used live at we lived down nissen huts right?
why on earth, cor !
jackanory!
stories, doesn't it?
no, no, no!
anyway i wish you met erm you know your mum's 
you know more than me!
has she gone out then?
yeah!
she told me, did i tell you?
oh did she?
yeah.
cos i know about her.
oh yeah.
got a heap of .
oh has she?
i don't where she got them and i didn't ask !
but anyway 
well she bo must of bought it.
you know that band , yeah well, we used to have one come from the down, he used to tap onto the erm tried to get off and everybody stuck to it.
stuck to it, yeah.
yeah.
these people, aren't they brave?
was it down there?
no.
no,.
.
er, and went on the you know la la la like this
like, what like?
that's alright.
oh but 
i 
no.
yet?
now you just gotta juggle which one it is.
still on nig.
that's a new one cos there's not much 
is that the ones out the front is it?
yeah, they 
bits or something.
that's right the best one's out there.
that in there?
i thought, yeah.
yeah.
so we got another one of those right back?
at the back, yeah.
ah, ah ah ah .
will try and get the screwdriver.
yeah, it's in my pocket.
is it?
i thought you did work on something.
ge february ninety two.
oh.
i've gotta shove it down.
well i think you want to .
so now you want a bulb to go in there now.
well i suppose .
what i'd do, as long as you actually ha for instance and light er 
a light, yeah that's right.
in the kitchen area.
what's that?
good heavens!
oh yes, cos erm
it's a bit dark mum!
yeah it is a sixty, you see it on the top don't you?
it is.
i was gonna put it in that there but it's too bright so do you get any potatoes?
ooh yes!
it were 
how much?
four twenty five.
right.
they were, they were .
don't want new ones!
no.
just old ones.
on the market don't she?
try selling them cheaper.
you ain't got a water in there nig?
don't get a lot of water there.
maybe i'll get little bits, i dunno.
well i want to clear that room really ..
mm?
.
they're not much good are they?
well as soon as i find out they'll have !
it is unfortunate .
yeah, i'll to , try and get your tools.
oh they're handy ain't they?
no.
oh.
suppose you can't interfere with the weather there 
i'll get your porch light.
in the attic.
yeah, but i know you wouldn't pay, pay for 
well we got no pocket there.
still not long enough.
this is not long enough.
how many times ?
so we're getting there.
oh yeah.
where's all my screwdrivers gone.
i don't know!!
over them 
dunno mate.
it's on the little table.
where?
there.
where?
putting that .
shall look alright .
yeah!
spend more time out there than they will out here!
aha, they're joking ain't they !
did you want any peas or anything with that?
no, no, no.
that's 
you sure?
okay.
are these, are these and er ?
just like crisps.
nice.
start what ?
what?
oh!
it's tilly.
this .
bye!
don't worry i'll walk home.
oh yes, gillian!
yeah!
thursday night, yes.
yeah, we're not i'm not in tomorrow night.
yes, yeah.
that's right, yeah.
i sa yes, no not i won't finish, i in the meanti , i told brian so he he most likely ringing li er lynn.
thank you.
yeah.
steve.
yes, yeah.
yep!
thursday night.
yep!
here you go .
that's alright.
no, that's alright.
at half past eight, i'll okey-dokey.
okay love it's yeah what he no,wha what the trouble is we got erm one o one our chap's retired and erm i'm gonna go there for the , just ask him for it, just to say, you know have a, have a quick dri , now if you're popping over to .
alright poppet.
okay, okay love.
yeah, see yo , see you soon then.
alright.
i i, i hope so too.
at least some of ours got their money back.
alright?
bye bye sci yeah see you thursday .
that was gillian.
so what you doing?
playing thursday instead of wednesday?
no.
oh!
this is the for dad.
oh i see.
take, those two there's.
anything else?
erm .
oh!
oh!
stop!
well you will feel your, your gums won't you?
mind you don't burn them or else that'll be a real terror!
yeah.
i hope the light bulb shines the right way nig?
down hill.
see you later then.
cheerio now.
night night.
i won't need my keys will i?
no.
yes, no, no .
should see him when he acts right.
i lost my wallet .
how you getting on , alright?
no,.
i am.
going down the pub?
yeah.
where's the cheese box?
where's the cheese box under there?
yeah.
oy!
ah no!
i've got to set the video again.
what happened?
sorry!
well what did you pull out?
that's up is that it looks that way .
.
but that's not like, that does fit somewhere.
what?
i know, but it's switched and it's still working?
no, that off your hand there nigel.
oh no!
set each side.
yes.
yeah, that's where you keep 
it's not!
well what is then?
i dunno do i?
i don't know.
that's the .
it's alright there now.
. do you want, do you want er .
the
eh?
oh well!
eh?
electric shower.
have you got electric shower?
er, yeah.
why's that nigel?
well you're gonna, gonna use it a lot anyway.
no, you're not, i am!
take one if we do of raffles and
go out and pose!
well it's pretty good innit?
that's good that!
yeah, it's good.
eh?
eh?
what was that again?
that was .
still it ain't bad.
no, oh god !
have you then nigel ?
but, yeah eight.
oh what's on that er
don't worry about that.
don't worry, i know what it is!
. and i've gotta do the title again now.
i just don't know how you can finish that title now.
no i ain't done nothing!
oh which is ?
it's twenty one thirty nine.
that's alright then.
but that's not actually .
sorry, shall i switch it off?
no.
that lady was in the kray brothers.
yeah.
spandau ballet as well.
was it?
adrian , what a name!
well i'll wash up the .
no, leave it there.
leave it there for a couple of days .
well you put them, i mean he didn't he?
he did.
and he come out of here, out of nick.
yeah, i picked all the yeah.
you're going to shaun's club tomorrow 
eh?
night.
you what?
near where shaun had to go tomorrow night.
why's that?
he didn't supply those.
well enough people have a bundle do they?
eh?
no, shut up!
enough people there to have a bundle!
they thought they'd have the mexican wave when someone go get, get up and go to the loo!
a load of .
yeah, which are you?
you should of got in a bunch of !
yeah well you shouldn't have hey?
no.
he said on the old shillings i want neil's bed but it weren't that cos he's bit of a fun to, you know , you know 
oh yeah.
and he's got all , don't think nothing of getting to any trouble with it, you know.
he can say he got up now, waiting for the loos so he thought he it was a mexican wave !
what?
ha!
for murder.
there's a lot of interference on this innit?
on where?
on the telly tonight, cos of the weather i suppose.
switched to .
no.
blowing out !
i'm gonna have a .
did you hear what say, get on alright with the toast?
the law can't win!
eh?
i ain't .
perhaps it's the bulb is it love?
no.
it's er something .
got a light?
where's the out of nigel's there.
oh, is he?
what was it then, a fuse?
oh!
dee dee dee dee dee dee dee .
alright nigel?
he thinks a bulb might have blown.
a bulb is it?
ooh right!
what about those?
yeah.
go outside anyway.
so what have we got here?
it's not that one.
it's on here now.
you tested it?
no, i didn't test it, now power.
it was like this.
yeah.
what you done with the lights?
and yet two went off?
neil?
come on get in!
outside.
get that window over
that's right.
there's enough light.
stand back and admire it that's what i want to do!
don't want those.
is this a true story, yeah?
yeah.
this is true story.
well it's not a story.
some of it was on about that man there, face got her to stay the night then he was gonna watch it on telly in the er lounge.
maureen's late isn't she?
makes you worry about their don't it?
yeah.
how did nick get on at darts last night then?
he won.
oh!
who was they playing against then?
viking 
who?
viking 
and er 
oh yeah!
we're up the club.
club.
what one?
could be a bulb.
mm?
could be the bulb.
could be the bulb?
mm.
blew it.
you might as well just do it.
aha, i think so.
that's true enough.
can i try the torch out then?
well i don't know.
doesn't show a reaction.
that's right it's .
are those wires connected to tho those erm
no.
just like the dagmar 
how long ago was this happened?
about eighty nine.
oh yeah.
they found that horse didn't they?
gone missing.
oh yeah.
what horse?
erm
shergar.
no it's the name of a horse it, it's about to give a foal or something and erm somebody took it and they found in the new forest.
oh yeah.
quite a good place for you know.
yeah.
it weren't oh, what's his name was it?
not shergar, no.
no, that other one.
white one.
yeah.
was it?
well you know, cos you see it on there didn't you?
no i haven't watched it!
oh!
what, i don't think they look much like
you alright?
but i'm gonna mess about.
did you watch ?
no, it's a so
course you can't focus on on us it's taping the programme innit?
yeah.
well can't you just use that then nigel?
i'm burning up!
just a minute!
no,.
i'll sta , i'll stay in here right?
in here.
well no it won't.
yes please.
it's on his coat now.
what do you reckon to these erm, these then nigel?
ha?
what do you reckon these ?
dunno.
have a look at the back.
how can you, how can you trace it back to the owners?
take it all out start again.
take that little bit of wire out down there.
what little bit of wire?
these bits.
no, no, cos i just said are you getting on with it nigel, that's all look.
it's , take that right.
what do you reckon to those?
which one's that then?
ah .
tell you what i'll do i'll tape it on the e end of that er total recall.
eh?
will you get on that ma , has it got a long play ?
probably.
do you want to give me your plate love.
i'll come and help you.
i don't know, did i?
you seem to go
alright!
alright!
he put it on it timer not me!
alright!
i just wanted to know!
that's all!
no, i don't know!
that don't seem very bright does it?
that's better 
hello, oh tavari what time is it mate?
nineteen, twenty past, kick off
alright you don't have to make an issue out of it
you gonna use the tape up to there are you?
yeah you don't have to
no, that's er, that's first prize that's, that's how much you win, ah?
twenty past
no, it even says in here, it says look, there well may be groups of supporters in different categories who'd like to arrange seats together, unfortunately not be able to do this unless you are prepared to wait until the end of the main selling period
alright
they won't be able to do that to be honest cos they're not gonna go are they?
i don't know
eighty thousand, eighty thousand
oh about time to 
boo, who's he?
come on, come on
you want a chew?
take one of these they'll make you feel better oh no don't this is
just say no
yeah
or give us here a bloody mint
ah?
just got him to give me a mint gasping for it
i was saying to this bloke at work west ham must be the only positive transfer to give west ham pay for about the last twenty five years
laughing up their sleeves, can't even bloody sell anything, but sell them at a profit.
who will they sell?
gary, gary
oh
and then get mike
come on, come on, come on, come on, come on, come on i say 
well it was just a surprise really
alright?
but they're all money, money, money aren't they?
yeah i know but
do what?
boo
hooray, come on
come on come on you reds 
if they got, if they're not gonna win tonight, if they don't beat bolton i'm gonna tear my season ticket up look ah
you're not even a season holder are you?
next year i will be next year i will be, they should win tonight, i hope so 
yeah, yeah
they were also saying about how good he is when they were interviewing
yeah that's right, yeah 
come on you reds, come on you reds 
mind you as if 
no i never saw him playing no
come on you reds 
go on oh crikey in the first minute, bloody hell,come on then 
come on you reds 
go on 
go on jason
jason go on
yeah 
no it's
what?
it's offside 
joanne you warm enough?
yeah
alright
oh dear
well play, come on then 
come on you reds, come on you reds, come on you reds 
that's yours david come on now good throw that goes to waste 
i just laugh 
don't miss it, what a miss
ah?
it's alright come on 
that's where those
yeah
yeah you go
cor jesus christ no fag ash is on again
i'm not opposed to links when they're relevant, i've in fact argued and encouraged them and defended them where they've taken place and i believe that they were important but i don't believe in them taking place where they're irrelevant and er where they er are unhelpful.
cornwall has one of the worst black spots in the country for unemployment, poverty and further economic difficulties, has one of the lowest gross domestic products in europe.
the central statistical office er show regional g t p figures for cornwall in nineteen ninety one that put cornwall so badly off er that our g d p is in fact just er seventy three percent of the national average, whilst devon's figures are eighty seven percent and i might add in terms of the different progress of the two, in nineteen eighty nine cornwall's g d p was seventy five point six percent so it's actually fallen back whereas plymouth's was eighty five point five percent and you've actually seen it grow.
so we've actually been moving in opposite directions er in the er in the two areas.
the economic performance of the two are divergent, they have a different set of problems and the linking of part of plymouth with cornwall creates a wholly artificial unit unrelated to geographical, social or economic reality.
indeed the creation of a split in the city of plymouth itself, makes that divide even more stark because it's even more clearly not in the interests of plymouth, as plymouth city council have been keen er to point out.
the plymouth interest, that final point, is i believe as clear as cornwall's and the natural links in south devon would provide the basis for a seat in which it could be better represented.
cornwall needs a voice of its own, to argue its case for regional funding, to improve infrastructure, to reduce unemployment and to encourage industry.
funds need to be directed at improving cornish roads, communications and rail links.
the liberal democrats are opposed to the basis of this review at national level we believe an opportunity has been missed or perhaps i should say ducked for the common, fair electoral system for which this country is supposedly a signatory.
but if the chance for a fair electoral system is lost at least we should have played to what strength there is in a single member system and properly recognised the individual communities of the u k. that chance has been missed without review and on that grounds i don't believe this review should go through.
richard shepherd.
thank you sir erm in that the government and the opposition front bench want to move this measure erm fulfilling their commitments to the maastricht treaty, i accept the methodology and the precedent that the government cites, i think that's appropriate, erm i just wanted to very briefly say that this is of course a vote no longer like the generality of the population voting for the membership of a golf club in which we have varying degrees of er interest.
we are now trying to affirm citizenship through the vote and therefore the nature in which we distribute these seats and the affirmation that we give through the vote will not relate in fact to any of the sentiments i believe as pronounced by the opposition front bench.
both the liberal democrats spokesman and the opposition front bench ally themselves to an out of reach of er lunacy that is not shared by the generality of the population outside.
i understand sir that at the last erm election european matters only thirty one percent of the population could find their ways to voting stations.
that may be of course because they were denied the liberal democrats panacea for everything namely erm proportional representation.
there is profound and deep argument of course that that is no more representative or true of democracy than a single member constituency.
it is a legitimate debate and of course the parroting of it as the only way forward is inappropriate to serious people trying to discuss that.
one understands the route as to why the erm liberal democrats wish to pursue that.
one cannot understand the route why that's so that the labour party wishes erm to advantage that.
but what i am saying in context, no this has a deal to do with the co boundaries, as you know erm the honourable member well knows, the essence of this this is wholly inappropriate in terms of erm trying to latest citizenship through an arrangement of six additional boundaries into a erm union and a political state and i think that that is the profound objection that this side of the house has expressed over a long period of time now, is a reflection of the public mood in the country in respect of this election and the way the boundaries er are are erm apportioned and all i say in conclusion is that this is an evidence further of the irrelevance of this house in reflecting and attesting to public opinion outside.
well mr er deputy speaker i er don't wish to er follow the honourable member of one of my er neighbours but i actually think it's really part of grown up politics to ensure that the political opinion of a nation is adequately represented in the forums of that nation whether it be in this place or in the european er parliament and to that extent i make no bones about it that erm i wish that we were debating a different electoral system and mr deputy speaker going back to the minister's introduction erm it is a fact, i didn't wish to intervene because i didn't, it's a short debate and i didn't want to take up er extra time, but it is a fact is it not that our electoral system unique across europe means that our deadline as opposed to what the french are going to do is different to all the other member states.
see all the other member states of er european er community mr deputy speaker,use proportional representation either on national lists or on large regional lists.
it is very easy if you like the day before literally as the minister said, the day before for them to make their change as to where the cut off point comes.
it doesn't affect the value of anybody's vote in those countries at all.
that cannot be the case in a single member constituency arrangement.
it will have to be for us at least twenty one days, that's the absolute rock bottom minimum i would have thought therefore the french i suspect have us over a barrel and we would have to cough up for the enormous expenditure of an extra building at strasbourg which is not needed erm as i understand it er that er view i savoured i don't erm have the details of that.
but mr deputy speaker i sincerely hope these are the last erm boundary changes we have to debate.
i mean it has been referred to that we might have to do them again, i sincerely hope we don't have to go through this process again.
in fact i suspect on june the ninth even the wipe out of the conservative party in the european elections may make even those members that side think that in order to say their own skins in the future they will actually have to start to think about a fairer electoral system and indeed there will be a unified system on the way forced by europe on this house if we do not take it upon ourselves to do so and it will be our own fault that we've shirked our responsibilities in my view to actually take it on board.
as my honourable friend said from the front bench, the labour party is absolutely firmly committed now both by the voices of the leadership and the votes and the resolutions at our party conference that we are in favour of a proportional representation system for the european parliament and i hope that when the elections come mr deputy speaker, and people will be arguing about why they're voting for europe on june the ninth in one boundary as opposed to another and why they've got erm erm different rules for this election of course as indeed for the last european election because the registration will be different, allowing all kinds of erm how can i put it foreigners in inverted commas, to vote in our elections in this country because it is the european elections that we will actually put the point across that er for the future there will be different arrangements made indeed.
the second point i want to er make mr deputy speaker wholly relating to this erm er clutch of er orders of which er eighteen plus the er the schedule which the minister didn't have time to go through in great detail, is the thrust of why i put the amendment down erm in fact that this order should not be er erm approved indeed until the citizens of gibraltar have been and able to be represented in the european parliament.
now i know that's not selected and i don't make any complaint about that erm far from it er i would not complain ever against the chair but i did introduce erm well i don't and i wouldn't but i erm introduced the erm first reading of a bill on this matter yesterday.
m mr deputy speaker, you will have seen if you read these er orders in front of us today running to at least er i reckon about ten thousand words, but by and large, all and sundry are going to be bote, er going to be out of vote on june the ninth, citizens of the european union and the minister has actually said on one or two occasions, all citizens of the union, well it is not true that all citizens of the union will be able to vote on er june the ninth.
i'll grantcha if you're a citizen of the union living in south america, the west indies or the pacific and you happen to be a member of the french colonies, you'll have a vote in the european parliament in the elections.
but if you happen to be a citizen of the union a citizen of the european union, a member of the only mainland european colony belonging to this country namely gibraltar, you don't have a vote.
now i don't think that's right, fair or democratic and if we've shied away from it for years handling this issue and now we're in the position where this house has total responsibility for the thirty thousand citizens in total of gibralt it's not the electorate, the total population, thirty thousand and we continued to deny them vote yet they are citizens of the european union under our own legislation and accepted as such by the european parliament and it is wholly wrong mr deputy speaker that the boundaries that we're discussing in this bill were not drawn so that and it could easily have been done,that we could have incorporated the twenty odd thousand european union citizens of gibraltar who do wish to be part of spain and won't be for fifty years or more until it's been a democracy that long, but to give them the right to vote.
to give them the right to vote by absorbing them into one of the english constituencies and it could have easily been done.
i accept completely what the honourable member for erm truro truro actually said in his speech just er that he just made, absolutely right that the cultural and the geographical identity of people matters so far as the european parliament is concerned and in respect of our responsibility, the responsibility of this house to citizens of gibraltar.
it's wrong, mr deputy speaker, if they're living in this country erm on a semi-permanent basis and happen to have been here last october they'll have a vote so will any everybody else who's a citizen of the european union, so will peers of the realm who happen to be living elsewhere whether they're in this country or outside this country under these regulations and previous regulations, have a vote in the european elections and i think it's wholly wrong that erm citizens of other european countries namely france because that's the one and it's remarkable is it not that france is the one that's gonna be the cause of this whole edifice collapsing if we don't submit to their extra demands but citizens of france who are citizens living in their colonies, as i've said in south america, the west indies and the pacific, will have a vote in the european elections on june the ninth and yet we have got citizens for whom we are responsible for in this house, we cannot shirk it onto anyone else, we deny them the responsibility and i think it's about time the house addressed this matter.
mr teddy taylor.
mr deputy speaker.
i just wanted to say three brief things about the boundaries, before doing so i think i may have to declare a personal interest.
i have to tell the house i have in fact put my name forward to be considered as a candidate to stand to stand for conservative 
party in the new constituency of south essex.
it's just possible mr deputy speaker, it's just possible i may not be selected for all kinds of reasons but if i was selected it might at least give the people of that lovely part of the world the chance of having the referendum they never had over maastricht because of the shameful way in which the labour party was not willing to allow the people to have their say on that vital issue.
the three issues i want to put forward to the minister are, number one does this matter?
my honourable friend the member for has rightly said that only thirty one percent of the people bother to vote and so why be bothering with new things at all.
in logic we would say to ourselves because the germans are getting more seats, because east germany is being added to the union, why on earth should britain get more as well and it seems very difficult to explain why we should have extra seats at all.
the other factor we should also bear in mind is the great majority of the people are not only not interested, they're basically hostile the whole business and i think that members may not have really noticed if they looked at the european newspaper, the highest ever figure, fifty three percent of all the people of britain are now totally and completely opposed to the whole business of the e c, they don't think it's a good idea.
so why should we have new boundaries.
there is of course a special interest in south essex where the people are concerned that while the government wanted to give aid to south essex because of its unemployment, this was unfortunately stopped by commissioner mr and also of course by commissioner mr milan solely on their decisions and this is a fact that all the papers assisted area status was put forward by the government for south essex.
it was also of course, we were put forward for objective two, this was turned down by these two commissioners simply because they sliced off two percent of the application.
so there is a special interest of course in south essex.
but the viewpoint i would like to ask the minister, it's a very important one is, can you give us any more assurance about whether this is actually going to happen?
has he been in touch with the french government?
it's very important indeed that people for example in southend on sea should know where they're going.
if this new regulation comes through they'll be part of a new seat but if in fact they don't have this regulation come into effect they'll belong to another s and when you've had in fact in southend say the lowest recorded percentage voting of any constituency in england at the last euro elections i think it's terrible important we should in fact explain to people whether this is likely to happen.
i think that people are getting very concerned indeed over how the french government are basically disrupting so many worthwhile things for silly reasons.
we had the g a t talks held up for a lengthy period simply because the french wanted even more cash for agriculture and of course they got it and it's rather silly when we're spending two hundred and fifty million pounds a week on dumping and destroying food.
we agreed to give more money to the french for agriculture.
but in the case of these boundaries.
of course certainly.
on that very point sir i'm grateful to the honourable member for giving way but would he not agree with me that actually the failure of g a t at the end was that by which caribbean bananas failed to be protected.
mr deputy speaker i i wouldn't be in order to go into this but i don't agree at all, as the honourable gentleman's well aware, that filthy protectionism of the c a p forces up prices of food for the average family in britain by twenty eight pounds a week.
i must insist we get back to the boundaries, i've repeatedly had to do so this afternoon i would have thought it that the message would have got over to me honourable members before now.
sir teddy taylor.
absolutely right mr deputy speaker and i just wish that members wouldn't raise these irrelevant points.
what i do say to the honourable gentleman is his argument is rubbish, bad for the third world, bad for the people of europe and outside mr deputy speaker i'd be glad to give him his answer although quite rightly to say i can't give it here.
but this particular case mr deputy speaker what we want to know from the minister is on these new boundaries what do we actually have to do?
my understanding is that the european parliament has got so many buildings now including a great new building at brussels built at huge cost, enormous cost and a new building they want to build at strasbourg.
they're now paying rentals of twenty four million pounds a year.
now quite frankly mr deputy speaker, if we want these new constituencies, including south essex, it seems we're going to have to say to the french they can have lots and lots of money to build lots and lots of new buildings for this rather ridiculous parliament and quite honestly mr deputy speaker, members tonight in voting on the new boundaries will really have to decide what we want to do.
are we simply to chuck out these extra six constituencies and say no to the french, we're not going to agree to extra silly expenditure or are we in fact going to cave in as we've done so often.
i think members should bear in mind the costs of caving in to french blackmail.
we did it over g a t at great expense to the people of this country and of europe, great damage to the third world.
it seems if we agree to these new constituents coming through, we'll only do it by having additional buildings which are utterly wasteful and quite honestly mr deputy speaker, i think you'll your constituents a very distressed indeed about the waste, the fraud and the mismanagement of the e c, of course sir.
i'm most grateful to the honourable gentleman er of course these buildings are all related to the orders were discussing in order that m e ps can be elected in the first place and is it not interesting to note that if agreement can't be reached as indeed is the position of the moment er in u what is called the european union over where actually the parliament is going to sit.
one would have thought the agreement could be reached easily on that matter.
what on earth is the possibility of reaching agreement on much more substantial matters?
a aren't we supposed to believe this european union is won, that it's all unanimous on the rest of it, there doesn't seem to be much evidence of that, even when it comes to where the m e ps should actually sit.
how right you are mr deputy speaker, of course i couldn't go into this because it's out of order but on the other hand i would simply say to the honourable gentleman if he looks at the basic policies, the basic flaw of the e c is it can't solve problems and all these new m e ps we're thinking of sending over i think we should bear in mind the problem, they're going over to something where problems can't be solved.
the ideal example of course the c a p, we've had reform after reform but nothing happens.
the final point mr deputy speaker and of course the honourable gentleman knows this is absolutely right, expenditure at an all time high, mountains at an all time high and also of course the gap between consumer prices and world prices the highest ever recorded.
as the secretary of state for foreign affairs said to me, twenty eight pounds a week extra per family, including the honourable gentleman's constituents .
really it's er testing my patience now i'm afraid.
i must insist the honour honourable gentleman and interventions too should be in accordance with the with the debate and wi o o on the boundaries, so teddy taylor.
mr deputy speaker how right you are mr deputy speaker, i've been trying very hard methodically to stick these regulations, unfortunately when you get members ask you direct questions if one doesn't get any kind of answer it gives the impression you're ignoring them.
what i can say to the honourable gentleman who i know always attends these european debates with great regularity, i'll be only too glad to speak to him outside as well as the honourable gentleman to try and clarify these matters.
the final point i want to make mr deputy speaker which i think is very, very important indeed, bearing in mind that fact that so few people bothered to vote in these is is there any possibility that before these regulations come into effect we can have at the same time, a little pamphlet put out saying exactly what these additional m e ps and the existing ones actually can do.
i think quite honestly in the progress of democracy, people sometimes gain the impression that the european parliament can do things it can't do.
i know a lot of people who study it carefully take the view if it closed down tomorrow nobody would notice apart from the taxi drivers in strasbourg.
but the kind of things people write about now will say can we do anything about the export of live cattle?
the answer's no.
can we stop the euro plug?
of course not it's going through majority vote in the european council.
so therefore mr deputy speaker in conclusion, what i'd say to the minister is, number one do we really need this order at all? because why should we have extra seats just because germany are getting more.
secondly are we going to cave in to french blackmail again and what will it cost us, and thirdly if we're going to have even more people going to strasbourg or to brussels or to anywhere else, isn't it about time we tried to save the people of britain who are getting more and more worried and concerned and perplexed about e c, particularly in places like harrow where they take a special interest in public affairs.
what they want to know is what are they actually going to do?
would it make any difference if there wasn't a european parliament at all?
sir geoffrey holn .
thank you mr deputy speaker.
i'm delighted to once again have the opportunity of following the honourable member for southend in a debate about european matters.
i wish him well in his er efforts to become a candidate in the forthcoming european elections.
i'm also looking forward to seeing a copy of the election manifesto on which he fights those elections and er er how it will be possible for the conservative party to er put forward a manifesto that he is comfortable with and also a manifest that the honourable member for say old bexley and sidcup is similarly comfortable with but er no doubt that's a matter for the conservative party.
the great advantage of having a fixed date er for these european elections on the ninth of june, a date that's been well known for a considerable time now, should be the certainty for the electorate, that they know not only the date of that election but the geographical boundary er of the constituency in which they live er the candidates that they can choose from and of course in relation to european elections, the number of er members of the european parliament that there will be representing the united kingdom.
but even if we agree this order tonight none of those issues will actually be clearly resolved er, there is a temptation and i regret that the honourable member for southend succumbed to this, there's a temptation to blem blame the french and the french government for this present state of uncertainty.
er, but that assertion needs to be examined just a little more closely because the british government are not without blame in relation to this matter, er the issues er affecting these forthcoming elections should have been resolved at the edinburgh summit during the presidency of the british government.
they should have been resolved in december nineteen ninety two because it was decided at that summit that there would be eighteen extra seats for er the then er united germany.
that there would be an extra six seats for france, italy and the united kingdom.
but in addition the british government went along with the er demand by the french government that they should recognise strasbourg as a meeting place for the european parliament in perpetuity.
the british government agreed to that and it's that matter that now causes the present difficulties and uncertainties.
john major came back from the edinburgh summit and he told this house that he was entirely happy with the his negotiation.
that he was entirely happy with the results of that summit.
but in so doing the prime minister overlooked two crucial aspects of what was decided at that summit.
firstly he overlooked the fact that the european parliament had consistently voted for brussels as a meeting place.
that the european parliament in fact led by conservative members of the european parliament very often on this issue had argued strongly that brussels should be a single meeting place for the european parliament.
there are members of the european parliament who s s support strasbourg as a meeting place clearly, but the majority do not, the majority want to meet in a single city and in so doing the majority have accepted that there should be a new european parliament building in brussels and that european parliament building now operates.
it operates however on a very limited basis in the course of nineteen ninety four it's likely that there will only be eight half day meetings of the full european parliament in brussels.
so the second factor that the prime minister overlooked is that the existing chamber in strasbourg is simply not large enough to accommodate the extra numbers of euro mps who will be elected to the european parliament, not so much as a result of the edinburgh agreement, but in fact as a result of the er enlargement that is in prospect.
again something that the government have strongly supported.
now, given that the government's support of the idea of strasbourg as being a permanent place of meeting for the european parliament.
it's proper that we should be asking in the context of these proposals for boundary changes, affected as they are by the decision of the er first of all the french national assembly and now the french government to make life difficult for the other member states as far as the ratification of these proposals are concerned, it's right that we should be asking what is the position of the british government in relation to these matters.
i i asked the er the minister earlier about this question and i appreciate his difficulties being a home office minister rather than a foreign office minister and i quite understand his reluctance to er stray too far from his departmental portfolio but the reality is that the british government agreed that the european parliament should continue to meet in strasbourg but we've heard nothing from the minister as to where the money should come from er in order to make that commitment a reality because i'm sure that every member opposite would say that the uncertainty about the present boundaries is not the er responsibility of the british government, that it's a matter for the french government to sort out which boundaries er will be in place in the united kingdom by june the ninth, the date of the european elections, but the reality is that the british government have gone along with the arrangement for having strasbourg recognised as a er seat for the european parliament.
but they've gone along with it without recognising that there will be a cost and members opposite have consistently criticised the european parliament for having a number of buildings from which to operate.
they're right to criticise the european parliament for that.
that's no making of the european parliament, the european parliament will be delighted to hold its meetings in the new building in brussels.
er but the truth of the matter is that the british government would not .
interesting but when are we gonna hear something about the boundaries.
mr geoffrey holn.
i i'm grateful mr deputy speaker and i i will certainly er stay in order but the british electorate coming up to june the ninth and the european er elections will not know even if we pass these particular proposals tonight er in which constituencies they will be voting and if i may give an illustration as the honourable member for truro did er er as far as his european constituency is concerned er the european constituency of derbyshire ashfield will d be divided into three different directions as the result of this particular order in council if we pass it tonight.
there will be a a a series of new constituencies created across the east midlands.
the electorate will expect to know who the candidates are in those er er particular constituencies.
indeed the political parties preparing for those elections are in the process of selecting the candidates er there will in fact be an extra constituency in the east midlands as a result of this particular order in council er and indeed the political parties at some stage will have to select new candidates for the six extra seats across the united kingdom.
that process is under way and the processes of political parties in choosing candidates are an important part of our democratic process.
if that is the case that each of the political parties, as i assume is the case for er the conservative party, i know it to be the case of the labour party i assume the same is true for the liberal democrats and other parties represented in this house, that they undertake the very considerable organisational er er process of selecting candidates only to find a few weeks before june the ninth, that as a result of the difficulties that i've described as far as the french government attitude towards these elections is concerned, that er in fact we have to revert to the existing arrangements and that we cannot have these new er boundaries in place.
that will cause astonishing confusion to the electorate.
it will something which the government will seek er to blame on the french and therefore mr deputy speaker i do think it important that the record is set straight er as far as the french government are concerned.
the british government er not only went along with this agreement at the time of the edinburgh summit, they positively endorsed this arrangement er as being something that they er strongly supported and urged upon other member states in the european community er and that i think is a relevant matter with respect er mr deputy speaker, i i appreciate that er there are other issues relating to these er er constituencies that are of greater concern perhaps to er honourable and right honourable members but this question of who actually is to pay for any new building in the european parliament is something that i believe the government cannot avoid.
i appreciate the minister's difficulty representing the home office with no specific responsibility for these matters as far as er er europe is concerned er but nevertheless this is a matter that does affect the electorate and one that i think the house should take er notice of.
i'm grateful mr deputy speaker.
morgan.
thank you mr deputy speaker.
erm i'm er rising to take the opportunity to sum up the debate er for those of us on this side of the house and to say that on this side of the house we do welcome these orders actually coming through, delayed though they are and er besmirched though they are by the usual examples of government incompetence in failing to send them to the scrutiny committee in the proper manner to allow the usual processes to take place but wi that's par for the course these days.
i want to welcome obviously particularly er the order relating to wales because it confers on wales er one additional seat, giving us five altogether because of the rise in the welsh population over the last ten years and that er although wales was under represented under the previous erm er you know distribution of seats which gave us only four we will be slightly over represented when we have five because you simply can't have four and a half seats, it's got to be one or the other but since the welsh population is continuing to rise very rapidly then it is likely that that will be put right.
i mean the welsh population in percentage terms is now rising more rapidly than that of england and therefore by the year two thousand and one when the next review would take place er we er will certainly fully occupy if you like, that fifth seat in terms of the average size because welsh euro constituencies were during the past ten years, very slightly larger on average than those in england and so er we are moving from under representation to slight over representation for a temporary period er simply because er you know wales is regarded as indivisible for this purpose and that's why we welcomed this debate.
i give way briefly to the honourable member.
i'm grateful to the honourable member and listening very carefully to this argument.
obviously the integrity of wales is very important to him otherwise he would p p presumably be prepared to accept that part of england could have gone with one of the new seats.
would he care to address the fact that because these orders are being taken separately for wales and england it is not possible to make the quota applicable in the same way in the same parts of the united kingdom.
wales is being given a quite different quota to england and because cornwall is being included in england for this purpose we are being unfairly treated by wales' being generously treated.
would the honourable member care to comment on that inequality?
i i obviously cornwall is a special case which we obviously as our celtic cousins it is the only non-anglo saxon county in england and as a result we feel a very, very strong erm er almost a kind of uncle erm nephew relationship to cornwall, whereas the cornish are certainly not welsh but they're certainly not anglo saxon english either.
we have a great deal of sympathy er but whereas i don't think some of the ideas that have been floated tonight for a cornwall and gibraltar west seat er or erm any kind of link up between cornwall and any tail end of a welsh seat we don't think is practical and i think he's gotta solve this problem er within the confines of cornwall being regarded as part of england if not anglo saxon.
that's not a problem that i can actually deal with er but wales certainly er you know takes the sort of interest in europe that we have seen from most of the conservative speakers er in trying to sum up this debate you have to refer to them er of not being able to show, there's a definite sort of anti european theme coming through from most of the speakers from the back benches who've chosen to take part in this debate tonight from the other side and it's difficulty to avoid summing up the debate without some reference to the points that they have made which is in complete contrast to the attitude that we have erm in wales er towards europe and that we are.
poor practices at the bank which the auditors were aware of for years, a crashing indictment er of the auditors.
it did, if you look at that report er th th that the curry curry gold or whatever, curry report erm i i i it shows that b c c i actually provided loads of financial benefits to some of the auditors er these benefits included loans to two price waterhouse partnerships in the caribbean er in addition it said there were serious questions concerning the acceptance of payment and possibly housing from b c c i and its affiliates by price waterhouse partners er the in grand caymans er and possible acceptance of sexual favours.
the report is more interesting than by the member for south east derbyshire er not that there's much sex in it but if er er i it's more interesting er sexual favours provided by b c c i officials to certain persons affiliated er with the firm.
now this is an appalling situation, er th the b c c i's books were certified by the auditors as a true and fair record from december nineteenth er december thirty first nineteen er eighty seven forward a and that meant that people had confidence in b c c i, here we're told that the auditors are giving it er a certificate of a a true and fair record er encouraging therefore people to in t to to invest and yet prior to nineteen eighty nine price waterhouse knew of gross irregularities er in b c c i's handling of loads, particularly the load to c c a h which was the holding company for first american er bank shares.
all this was known to the auditors, they didn't spill the beans.
now why have we not had an inquiry which will bring out what happened in the case of b c c i so we can base proper and effective regulation er on that er in i in in in in inquiry.
the government feels it can rely on er auditors to protect the interests of share holders and the creditors and the other stake holders but i have to tell the minister that that reliance which is now er strengthened by the regulations b by the er the order today has always proved er inadequate in the er in in the past er because poor auditing practices always get covered up, there's no way for anybody to know how bad or how good er the audit is as long as a company er survives and we haven't developed in this country, the proper institutional framework to regulate auditors er effectively and to actually make them er er accountable.
now and er i have to point out to minister this side of the house er actually proposed much stronger provisions on er detection of fraud er in at the the building societies act and the financial services act er in in er er er of eighty six er we have these orders er brought in far too late because the government is continuing to place reliance on an industry and a framework which has a history er of of failure.
they can't beat the auditors on effective replacement for regulation.
in the united states quite rightly, state inspectors visit and monitor banks er and that's the only effective way we're going to know what's er w what's going on.
there should be such a requirement in britain, instead of just relying that we are about these orders er on the o o on the er auditors er them that that that the the themselves.
er er er i mentioned er in an earlier interjection the fact that price waterhouse in this country er wouldn't give evidence and didn't provide information to price waterhouse partners er er i i in the united states er er the government i think, can only er deal with this by some effective regulation er of auditing er and by some er er effective er independent regulate.
there needs to be er a banking commission to take these functions away from a bank of england performed so poorly er and was shown to have done by the er b by the bingham report.
my own preference is for er er er er a securities next change commission, an independent commission as in the united states with a banking commission underneath it er an accountancy er commission underneath it, but an effective framework of independent regulators to whom the auditors can report er when they er wh wh when they found the they find fraud.
my honourable friend from the front benches made the point about the gaps in er these regulations, they don't cover lloyds, they don't cover pension schemes, pension funds they don't cover banks which are domiciled er in the er in in the united states but er we also have the point which i made in the interjection to the minister that unless there's a duty to detect fraud er er as well as report it, it's really doubtful if the auditors can perform er the function.
we pointed out them from this side of the house er the local government's finance act does impose both duties.
now the audit industry was in favour of that at the time because it saw itself as able to get its fingers into local authority audit so they were prepared to accept that they could do it then, it's only now er when it's proposed on what's been their traditional prerogatives, they er er they audit of banks and private sector er er companies that they balk at the proposition and say ooh it's horrendous we can't do it.
well i have to tell the minister that the firms are advertising for detection services all the time, k p m g peter marwick advertising this, they will er investigate financial frauds and rectify and recover from them that requires specialised accounting skills, k p m g forensic accounting offers experience in the techniques of fraudsters and the procedures er they may have followed.
awareness of the indicators, the possible irregularities, the resources needed for a fast and accurate investigation, experience of the quality of evidence required to support a successful case and the expertise to assembly and present that evidence.
we can assist in tracing funds and unravelling the most complex international cases.
they can provide all that for a fee why can't they provide it as a compulsory necessary part er of the service,it wouldn't be more expensive the minister claimed, if you do a proper audit it can't be more expensive.
proper audit er is the effective way er to detect fraud and that needs to be at the at the er the re requirement er er that we impose er on and i, as i pointed out er at the moment the auditors themselves are not being effectively er regulated.
lord justice er bingham did say that the relationship between the client, the auditor and the supervisor er is an issue of policy which is more appropriate for decision by parliament than the accounting profession and yet er we're still subjecting that to control er by the auditing practices board, not a statutory body er er and it's already told us that it's going to impose passive requirement on auditors er in this very difficult area.
now passive requirements on auditors are just not adequate for the detection of fraud.
the draught standard they've put forward states the duty to make a report direct to a regulator does not impose upon auditors a duty to carry out specific work, no specific work, don't do anything just go along.
that's ludicrous, unless you do the work you can't make the report.
no auditing practices in addition to those carried out in the normal case of auditing the financial statements are carried out.
auditors are not responsible for reporting on irregulated entities overall compliance with rules with which it is required to comply, that's unlike local government, nor are they required to conduct there work in such a way that there is reasonable certainty that they will discover breaches.
they're not actually required er to go out er looking for things, just sit there be passive er a and it'll all come pouring in, that seems to be the er the .
fraud doesn't work that way, you don't get the fraudsters rushing in and saying here's the evidence mr auditor, get me.
it's all well concealed and unless the auditor has an obligation to actually hunt this down, the kind of white hunter er er of the british economy er then er it won't be detected and the passive approach to audit such as the er audit practices board is recommending is simply a recipe for further disasters er and further audit failures.
couple of final points er madam deputy speaker, er the government should surely have clarified responsibility of auditors.
who are they actually responsible to?
to whom do they owe a duty of care?
it's no good just saying you can report fraud er to er t t to the regulator, they should also be responsible to the shareholders, the stake holders, everybody involved er in er er er a company er and in fact er they aren't they have really responsibility to no one except the directors er who appoint them, the company share holders are given very little information, the choice of auditors er is firmly in the director's director's hands, the depositors, the consumers, the employees er have no say er in the appointment of er auditors and more important the recent legal cases for instance and the al saudi bank er er and berg er sons er and company also decided that er auditors don't owe a duty of care er to individual shareholders, potential investors, the current or potential creditors er even though that information is supposed to be there to help markets understand what is happening to that committee and the government showed no indication that it wants to reverse these judgements, it should reverse them, there should be specific responsibilities attached to er auditors to give them a duty of care er so that we get the information er and er spend more widely and the share holders and the stake holders know what's going on er er er as well as er the bank or the financial er institution er itself.
now my honourable friend has already quoted er the presence the,o of the department of trade in this er er pointing out in er his book er where there's a will there's a corpse er er that er there shouldn't be a conflict of interest because accountancy firms shouldn't do other work.
that should be a paramount objective er in financial institutions because d t i inquiries have indicated er that the work is less adequate er when er they're relying er on when a man is checking his own figures or those of a colleague, that was er er in at the roadships erm re report.
there's a who er er a whole series of other reports, bernhope and fauder for instance, critical of er audit reports er report in in that context and i have to say to the minister er that none of the auditors criticised by d t i reports over the years have actually be disbarred from er from practice.
now what kind of a sanction is that er to make the auditors actually do the job properly.
we need an effective independent regulator, not the mafia regulating mafia and saying it's quite understandable boy, we'll let you off this time which is what happens now er with the institute of chartered accountants er as a recognised supervisory body er in this er in this particular field.
we have to have er an effective control er and discipline er of auditors.
the secretary of state er told me er that the has been no occasion where criticism from a companies auditors by my department's inspectors in reports published since june nineteen seventy nine has led to an audit partner being excluded from membership of a professional accountancy body, er and no auditor criticised in d t i inspector's reports has been debarred from auditing as a result of information er in that report.
so bearing in mind the government itself has never iss er initiated any criminal action against auditors criticised in d t i reports, there are no effective sanctions.
now for all those reasons madame speaker, this these orders er er today are inadequate, too little, too late, we can't vote against them, much as the the member who preceded me seemed inclined to vote against them and i wish that he had the g er the guts of 'is cu the courage of his convictions er he should vote against them, er we on this side are far more responsible er than that because to vote against them er might be an indication that we're as much in frau in favour of fraud as members on the other side of the house, er we're not in favour of fraud, we welcome any progress to detection of fraud, even progress that we asked for five eight years ago when the relevant legislation was passed.
for that reason we have to welcome er the er th th the orders, but they're just not good enough.
here, here.
mr john greenway.
er well madam deputy speaker i think erm that the last half an hour shown that er the quality of debate in this house er remains extremely high and that even when you have an issue which on the face of it looks to be as dry as dust er that er there are some honourable members who will pick an argument er when perhaps er on the face of it there ought not to be much of an argument er i can't erm i can't say that erm i agreed with much of what erm the honourable member for great grimsby said er he seemed to imply er quite early on his er speech that most of the city of london er was collapsing in a sea of sleaze and er er other other goings on which are extremely er to be regretted but erm i think we ought to er remind him er that erm, you know, all all of these four orders er followed the bingham inquiry into er what happened at b c c i which was not a british bank, was an international bank based erm overseas and i think i'm right in saying this and i'm sure my honourable friend the minister will confirm when he winds up er this is the first er such difficulty er that we've experienced for a great length of time.
er, now the the point i really want to refer to is erm just what role an auditor ought to play er in the er insurance and financial service industry in looking at particular firms, erm i have several interests which the honourable member for edinburgh central knows about, er the one that i think is relevant er to tonight is that i am an elected member of the insurance brokers registration council and the way that erm the way that we regulate insurance brokers erm is laid down by statute but it does actually demonstrate the advantage, the benefit of erm of having a statutory requirement for audit and for er a proper oversight of what then follows in terms of the way that the regulator reacts to what the auditor may say.
the purpose of of these four orders, which i must say i greatly welcome, it is one of the, the most beneficial things to come out of the b c c i er disaster er and er i if i can say in in effectively in answer to to everything the honourable gentleman for great grimsby said and he and i have debated on many occasions, if fact usually on the television not on the floor of the house, but er an an an an because of it for not quite so long either, er but erm th the point i would make to his is that really what he was saying was th that what went wrong with b c c i is that price waterhouse knew there was fraud and didn't say so and that wha what lord justice bingham pointed out was that there is a clear conflict of interest between the interest of the client who they work for and the public interest and that what needed, what was needed was some amendment to the banking act to clarify that and that is precisely what er this order actually does and you can't really er madam deputy speaker, expect anyone to really seriously criticise the government when in actual fact not only have they come up with the regulation to deal with that but they've also gone further and said we will apply this to financial services and to building societies and to insurance companies as well, just to be absolutely sure.
now i would be the first to admit that i i'm not a judge as accountant, i'm an insurance broker er and erm i don't understand er and i'm not aware of all of the rules and regulations that affect accountants er and affect the way audits are carried out,b but i must say i was a bit surprised t to hear during the debate, er that that was really what the problem was, the problem with b c c i was this conflict of interest, that fraud was known and it was not declared er and er i think that these er these regulations should now make that considerably er more clear.
the point i i simply wanted to to make which is why i i sat through the debate, erm is the honourable member for edinburgh central er in his er speech er which i i must say i did expect, called for stronger regulations, er we had the argument the other week about whether there should be statutory regulations or whether we should make er the er self regulation system that we have with financial services industries work.
erm, i take the view that we ought to try and make the existing arrangements work and we are fast approaching a very key point er in that process erm i understand that on thursday, er securities and investments board, the board will consider the er p i a, proposed p i a prospectus and that er within a week or so we shall all be able to to read it and to look at it erm and the key point, which really is arises out of what we're discussing tonight, the key point is what regulatory framework should the p i a place on intermediaries and on er life assurance companies, pension funds, financial advisors generally er in order to ensure that the public interest is protected and that if there are potential frauds erm such as the levitt case er that we talked about earlier and i think the honourable member in sort of by implication in terms of er community service, er punishments that he referred to, er had also that in mind, er just what should we do to ensure that if there is malpractice and fraud, it's picked up very, very quickly.
certainly this order on financial services, helps because it makes absolutely clear that if an auditor sees malpractice and potential fraud he has an obligation and a duty to report it straight away to the regul regulator, but that will help the process.
but there will as i my honourable friend knows, there will be quite an argument when we see the prospectus and i haven't had the priv the privilege of seeing it erm although i've had the opportunity to discuss er its contents with th with the er chairman of the p i a er er and the chief executive.
er it is important i think, that we don't er have too many regulations, that's why i have some sympathy for what my honourable friend, the member for south hamms, was saying, that we don't er regulate to the point where firms just go out of business and give up, that it's too expensive and it's too burdensome.
but that we get a balance right between the amount of regulations an and the cost of it but that it is in a sense, effective and and the plea i would make to my honourable friend when he considers this p i a prospectus and what should be done and wh to what extent the government feels it should support it, is that what we actually want is not a specific requirement that says you've got to have this much, that much capital erm and so on, but that there is a function, there is a regular audit trail, there is a a regular, annual look at the figures, the accounts of all these intermediaries, er and firms where the difficulty has been er in the past.
because i i i've said this to him before on on the floor of the house, that is what we are required to do in the insurance brokers registration council for all insurance broking firms, that is what parliament required in the insurance brokers registration act and it is not an onerous requirement on firms, it is not excessively expensive so it would meet i believe, any cost compliance test er that erm the er the d t i might wish to to insist be carried out.
what it does is it means that there is a proper look each year at the finances of each individual firm er and er if there are things which are wrong, they are reported straight away and that really i think is the lesser of all of this with b c c i, er that er where things are not all they should be that they are dealt with and they are reported quickly and these orders,madam deputy speaker, go a long way to helping to ensure that and for that reason i believe the house should warmly welcome them.
mr anthony nelson.
madam deputy speaker.
this has been a curiously old fashioned debate in some ways with one hou side of the house calling for more regulation and the other side of the house calling for less regulation and my honourable mem , my honourable friend the member for south hamms er did say eloquently again this evening.
i can say to my honourable friend, the member for rydale who takes such a close interest and is so well informed er on these matters, er i'm very grateful to him for the welcome he's given for the orders here, he's absolutely right to say that we have gone beyond er what restrictive called for by bingham, we have extended it to other sectors in the financial we welcomed the honourable gentleman from edinburgh central that these er orders are in some way timid, they are what was called for by the treasury select committee, they are what was proposed er by bingham and we have er introduced them er here tonight.
i say to my honourable friend as far as the p i a's concerned he will have an early opportunity er to consider er the prospectus on that which is indeed being published er and i take very seriously the point he makes about adequate monitoring procedures and the need for an audit trail.
i think that is a central criterion to attach the effectiveness of self regulating organisations if the the methodical nature of their monitoring er a and the way that that is done and i hope all concerned will consider these matters carefully.
my honourable friend the member for er south hamms, madam deputy speaker, er gave i thought a a an amusing but perceptive speech about the growth of deregulation, indeed some were saying that deregulation er is in fact the fastest growing part of bureaucracy in whitehall and there have been calls to deregulate the deregulators er, he is of course quite right that parkinson's theory can extend in this area and one can find that deregulation acquires a life and momentum erm of its own.
but the underlying purpose, that of reducing unnecessary bureaucracy, stripping away the red tape which hinders enterprise and good er governance in this country, is something that the government is very committed to and we intend to promulgate that doctrine throughout all the areas and that of course is being taken forward in legislation.
as far as er the honourable gentleman for edinburgh central is concerned, he said there was a case for a wider inquiry into the auditing o of companies, well that is not something specifically called for er by bingham although i acknowledge that a case can be made for that but i think we want to be extremely careful before extending that in the way that he and the honourable member for great grimsby proposed beyond the direct er responsibility to the members or the owners of the company.
it must be right for auditors to audit and for regulators to regulate and i do not think that it helps the argument for there to be an overlap in responsibilities and in some way, as i say, to turn auditors into snoopers and narks er er and make more supine one's er regulators.
so i i i don't think that there's a case for er widening the er widened inquiry into the auditing of companies.
he said there was a case for extending the duty of care of auditors beyond members but this again was something that bingham didn't necessary find er necessary as a result of his inquiry into b c c i.
he asked about what material significance meant.
that of course is very much set out in the guidelines of the er sta er statement on auditing er standards.
he asked about lloyds, he is quite right that that is not covered er by these orders but it is the case that it is a condition of the appointment of ordered, er of auditors into syndicates er that they shall report, they have a duty er to report er where these situations arise.
er, mr deputy speaker i don't have time to deal with the other points but if i've missed anything in particular i will write to honourable members concerned.
can i just finally say that the whole import of the orders is to ensure that they look at the criteria of authorisation, they are concerned with the authorisation of firms which take public deposits and investments and when that is brought into question, when there is evidence to suggest that those criteria are not being adequately med it must be right to impose a non costly duty on the auditors to bring that about, that is what these orders do tonight, i think they're an extremely welcome addition to the stable of measures of regulation and they will improve materially depositor protection.
motion number four the question is the motion on the order paper,say aye.
aye.
no.
i think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.
the leader of the house will put amendments five to seven informally.
question is the motions on the order papers,say aye.
aye 
no, i think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.
we then move to motion number eight mr secretary redwood to move it.
mr deputy speaker i beg to move that the local government finance report wales nineteen ninety four to ninety five house of commons paper number one six eight, which was laid before this house on the thirty first of january, be approved.
this report sets out my decisions on the local government revenue settlement for nineteen ninety four five.
i understand it will be convenient to discuss at the same time the next motion on the order paper that the local government finance amendment report wales nineteen ninety three, ninety four, house of er in i in in in in inquiry.
the government feels this house on the thirty, thirty first of january be approved.
this latter one puts right a mistake in the description of the basis for distributing the distributable amount for ninety three four which was approved by the house on the eighth of february nineteen ninety three.
i can assure the house that the amendment in this document does not affect the money authorities should received.
mr deputy speaker, i announced my provisional settlement proposals to the house on the thirtieth of november last.
i have given careful consideration to the representations i have received on the level of settlement and the views that the local authority associations in coming to my final decisions.
i believe that my provisional proposals remain appropriate.
i propose to set total standard spending for nineteen ninety four, ninety five at two thousand seven hundred and four point eight million pounds.
this includes the sum of eighty six million for care in the community, it is an increase of four point two percent or over one hundred million pounds extra cash compared with nineteen ninety three, ninety four.
i thank the secretary of state for giving way, he he did say that erm er the figures in these report were in a sense provisional at the end of last year, erm but that he feels erm, with the passing of time, nothing has happened to change his view.
would he tell us then what he believes the impact of the er pay settlements will have on the spending he's allowed local authorities because it seems to me there must either be a cut in staff er and a cut in services if they're gonna keep within the the money that he made available at the time when he wasn't aware of these settlements.
mr deputy speaker i i'm grateful to the honourable gentleman for posing the central question and i hope in the course of my remarks i will satisfy the house, if not all labour members, that the settlement proposals are at is all to the good and delivered by councils throughout wales and that they offer enough money er to avoid sacking essential staff, certainly the offer enough money to avoid sacking any teacher who is needed in the classroom.
i don't want to see that happen, i trust members of the house don't wish to see it happen.
it is up to local authorities, but i believe the extra grant, the extra spending permission, means that a good quality education can be delivered to children in wales er without it in any way being jeopardised by these proposals and i would illustrate later on in my speech that local government does have considerable flexibility to spend wisely and well and it has resources at its disposal to do a good job.
i give way.
secretary of state for giving way, but when he made his proni provisional announcement on the er on the total s s a for wales, was he aware that the er the various er salary review bodies would be bringing in a er a recommendation which was almost twice the current rate of inflation?
mr deputy speaker, no i did not know the exact amount of the recommendation but i of course assumed there was likely to be some pay increase and i have made an increase in grant which i am just about to explain to the house which will go some way to meet the requirements of local authorities and there are other assets and resources they have er which i will illustrate later on in my speech.
i propose to provide two thousand four hundred and nineteen point two million pounds in central government support towards this spending, an increase of three point three percent on nineteen ninety three, ninety four.
so honourable members opposite will see that that is a good rate of increase compared with the current rate of inflation.
the support package will comprise seventeen hundred and forty point one million pounds in revenue support grant.
four hundred and sixty four million in distributable, non-domestic rates and two hundred and fifteen point one million pounds in other revenue grants.
over eighty nine pounds in every one hundred pounds of welsh local authority expenditure on revenue account will be funded by central government support.
this generous level means that welsh council tax payers benefit from substantially lowered levels of tax than their english counterparts.
welsh tax payers should continue to benefit from relatively low levels of tax next year, assuming sensible budgeting decisions.
the revenue settlement is matched by the substantial local government capital settlement for ninety four five which i announced on the thirtieth of november.
this totals five hundred and three million pounds in capital grants and crediting approvals, a four percent increase on nineteen ninety three, ninety four.
it means welcome permissions to improve capital stock in housing, education and other crucial local government service areas.
the welsh non-domestic rate poundage or the business rate, for nineteen ninety four, ninety five, will increase by one point eight percent in line with inflation to forty four point eight pence.
this modest increase, coupled with transitional arrangements announced in the budget, will be of considerable benefit to business.
about twenty thousand business rate payers who face the largest increases following the nineteen ninety revaluation, will benefit by five point three million pounds from the transitional changes.
this mr deputy speaker, is a decent settlement for local government in wales.
it gives local authorities an additional one hundred million pounds to spend when the low level of inflation is helping them keep down the cost of providing their services.
the eighty six million pounds i am providing for care in the community is an increase of almost fifty million pounds on nineteen build on the introduction of the service in ninety three, ninety four year.
since the nineteen ninety to ninety one settlement, revenue resources for local authorities have increased by almost five hundred and thirty million pounds or twenty seven percent.
my provisional settlement proposals were met by some criticisms that they could lead to substantial increases in council tax levels, increases as high as fifteen percent were suggested.
most local authorities have yet to set their budgets but i am glad to report to the house the press reports indicate a far more modest level of increase.
clwyd county council and cardiff city council are reported to be proposing a reduction in their council taxes.
south glamorgan county council and the vale of glamorgan borough council are reported to be planning increases limited to three percent or below.
mr deputy speaker it shows it can be done and i hope others will look after the interests of their tax payers as well.
on december the fourteenth i announced my provisional capping criteria.
i will give careful consideration to local authority budgets and make my capping decisions in the light of all the information available to me when i've received it.
i should like i if i may mr deputy speaker, to commend welsh billing authorities for their better than expected performance in collecting the council tax.
they estimate an overall surplus on collection funds, of seventeen point six million as at the thirty first of march nineteen ninety four.
this translates into an average eighteen pounds reduction in council tax for a band e dwelling which could be passed on to council tax payers in their ninety four, ninety five bills or of course allows them more flexibility in their general financial planning.
local councillors have considerable flexibility in their budgeting.
sums of money i am describing tonight are large, revenue and capital spending combined, of over three thousand million pounds is many times the amount spent by quangos in wales outside the health service and the grant represents a large share of my total budget for wales and i hope members opposite are not suggesting i should cut spending on health, that is a vital service which i thought they supported as well.
flexibility is increased by the payment of rate support grant and distributable non-domestic rates as a block grant.
it is then for local authorities to decide how to spend the money their given in line with their priorities and their local needs.
council can raise income through fees and charges, they have balances which they can choose to spend or retain,they have assets which they can use for their service provision or they can sell to raise capital.
they have large administrations which they should always be looking to make more effective and in an area like education, there are surplus faces to be removed, energy to be used more efficiently and services to be contracted out if this can provide better value for local tax payers.
i apologise for interrupting him.
i wonder, he's no doubt aware of the quite serious problems facing the south wales police and the funding of the local authorities of the police.
is there any hope that he as secretary of state along with the home office minister, might get round a table with south wales police to sort the problems out because on the ground the seriousness is about the growing problems of crime and law and in fact the lack of in fact, policeman on the beat.
so i hope he will be able to accept this offer or request on behalf of many, many constituents of mine and i'm sure of others too.
mr deputy speaker i'm just about to come on the south wales police but i will answer the point directly, er i and my honourable friend the parliamentary secretary are always willing to discuss with local government, matters relating to local government finance and we have done so over the months leading up to this settlement and my honourable and right honourable friends in the home office are always willing to discuss matters on the police er where they are important and warrant a ministerial meeting and that again has happened recently with the home office min minister discussing this very issue.
the last thing i want to see is local authorities skimping on the police.
the budget problems of the south wales police have been much in the news.
recently published audit commission profiles show that the south wales police expenditure per head of population is above average for comparable forces and more police are on duty than for similar forces.
i trust that local authorities and the police authorities will make sensible decisions about future services.
i think most of the issues that have been raised tonight already, are ones for the police authority and i hope they will get on with their job.
where necessary police stations should be kept open and enough policemen should be made available for beat duties and for detection work, i give way.
wherever blame might lie as regards the situation with the south wales constabulary at the present time, surely it would be madness to merge gwent police force with the south wales police force at this unfortunate time because gwent has a very, very good record and we want it to stay like that.
er mr deputy speaker i i will make sure that the home office sees the transcript of this debate and i have noted the report the honour the matter the honourable gentleman has raised.
mr deputy speaker the last thing also that i wish to see is local authorities .
i'm most grateful to my right honourable friend er for giving way.
would he not agree er that the fact that erm the home office plan to give allow for seven million pounds extra er for the police budget in w in wales whereas in actual fact local government has chosen er to to give only two point two million er through the police budget er is a disgrace and reflects very badly on the running of the police authority and on the chairmanship of that committee.
mr deputy speaker my honourable friend is right that the allocation of budgets is a matter for the local authority and that is a matter for public debate er in the council chamber.
thank you.
of state therefore explain why in england it's prof possible to get a straight answer from the secretary of state with the figures of the s s a for the last five years, for this year and for next year and it's not possible to get that for wales either from the home secretary or from the honourable gentl right honourable gentleman.
mr deputy speaker, as the honourable members knows, our s s a calculations are on slightly different basis from england as we set out in this report and we do believe that local authorities should have the maximum flexibility to make their own decisions and it is therefore a matter for local debate.
whether they value their police service enough or not and whether it needs more money or not to do a good job or whether the authorities should take a look at how it is being run.
but mr deputy speaker i.
i i take it that honourable gentle right honourable gentleman is making an implicit criticism of his colleague the secretary of state of the environment er, er and the home secretary who has responsibility can produce figures for england.
he cannot produce them for wales, why is that?
it's surely because the right honourable gentleman is not providing the money to welsh local authorities.
here, here.
mr deputy speaker,tha that was a fatuous point.
i've already answered the underlying question, i do believe that they should have the maximum discretion and then they should be answerable for their decisions to their local electors who want a good police service and want a good education service and there is money there for them to do it if that is their wish.
for the last thing i wish to see alongside skimping on the police is local authorities reducing the number of teachers where they are needed to teach pupils.
because i am delighted to report that education standards in wales have been rising over the last few years following the introduction of the national curriculum and our other reforms.
but as i said in a speech recently, we have a lot further to go, more progress to make and that is very much at the top of my agenda of, the agenda of my right honourable friend the education minister.
local authorities in wales have reduced the level of rent arrears by over ten percent between nineteen ninety, ninety one and ninety two ninety three but there is more progress to be made.
since nineteen eighty seven the number of vacant local authority dwellings has also fallen and these are the cuts i do want, cuts in the number of empty houses, cuts in the rent arrears, cuts in the tax arrears so that the money is there to spend on the services that people want.
i am pleased to report that care in the community has in general, been successfully introduced.
it is a good example of a major service being given to local government so that local rather than national democracy can determine the details of its future and how it flies in the face of the criticisms of the party opposite, that we're always taking important things away from local government.
here is one of the fastest growing services in the public sector over the decade to come and we've entrusted local government with it.
i give way.
i'm very grateful, i'm very grateful to the secretary of state.
could he just make sure though that in his plans by defining community care and by by that i mean social care as opposed to health care, in a certain way.
what he might be doing is to actually seek to increase the proportion of our very vulnerable population into the means testing category and that what he's got to watch is that he doesn't end up in a position whereby defining health care in one way and social care very carefully.
health care will then be denied its proper role and that is clearly seen in the discharge of elderly people into the community and a point he knows well because he's heard it from me before, without the necessary disabled facilities being in place for those elderly people and it is his department that decided to put the disabled facilities grant in the basic credit allowance to compete against over local authority priorities in that section.
why doesn't he put it back into the special credit allowance?
mr deputy speaker, members opposite speak with forked tongues.
they first of all say they want local government to be more responsible, to be more trusted, to have more freedom, i then give them that freedom and then they complain that i'm not telling local government what to do and i don't intend to lay down every detail of what they should do.
i, like the honourable member, happen to believe the point he's made is right, that this should be a high priority, the money is there for local government to do it, i've explicitly recognised the needs of the disabled in my settlement for next year by increasing it substantially and i hope local government will respond and do the decent thing.
i want to see elderly people looked after well and if they can be looked after at home all well and good but of course they need the facilities.
i give.
i i'm very grateful to the secretary of state, erm is he aware that increasingly over this winter there have been examples of homes for the elderly and particularly nursing homes in the private sector without casting a valued judgement on the role of the private sector, er homes that are finding difficulty in the filling the beds because of policy that is being pursued in care in the community.
does he realise that some of these homes er are perhaps have only half their beds full which means that there are vulnerable people there, uncertain as to whether their home, their only home is going to remain er in existence.
can he give some assurances that there will be coherent planning to make sure that there are no vulnerable people er affected in this way, in the transition over to care in the community?
mr deputy speaker that's exactly what the authorities are asked to make sure about and of course they must have sensible plans so that there are always beds and facilities for those who need them, but in a way it's a success of care in the community that that more elderly people are being looked after in their own homes and so we've arrested the very rapid growth in permanent residential places which was occurring before the policy was introduced er, as we now see, despite some gloomy forewarning, local authorities have in general managed well in the first year of their responsibilities, they've examined thousands of cases and many people have been helped to make decisions about their own futures.
many are able to continue living as they wish in their own homes.
this has meant a fall in the demand for residential care which had been increasing rapidly in previous years and it is the duty of the relevant authorities to plan future provision er so that everything will work smoothly for those most in need.
i trust local authorities will respond positively to this settlement.
i believe in good local government.
i believe that councils have an important role to play.
i am disturbed if i learn of cases of alleges impropriety or irregularity in their financial performance or in their accounting.
i trust all parties in this house will unite, not only in believing in local government but in agreeing that local government should set and maintain the highest possible standards of conduct when spending the very substantial sums of money parliament votes to it.
this settlement mr deputy speaker, is a large settlement.
it is a good settlement in an area of low inflation.
it gives local government in wales the money it needs to provide high quality services and to get on with the job.
it need not lead to high tax increases, nor to the redundancy of crucial workers.
well run councils will flourish as a result of this settlement and i offer them every encouragement to do so.
mr deputy speaker i commend it to the house.
question is the motion on the order paper, mr ron davies.
here, here.
thank you very much mr deputy speaker.
i think we've seen a a new model secretary of state this evening.
he er came to the despatch box and he talked about conciliation.
he said that he had taken into account the views of local authorities put to him since he met them last year, he might have taken in to account of course, we didn't accept any of the er er observations.
he commended er local authorities, he commended labour controlled local authorities for their collection rate of the council tax and for their collection rate of rents.
he actually praised the value of democratic local government and he compared that with his own quango state.
it really is er a new model secretary of state although the fact of the matter is mr deputy speaker, that er his reality of course is quite different from his and the reality is that this is a poor settlement for local government in wales and it's been roundly condemned, not least by the county councils, who is the largest employers in wales will have to face the considerable burden imposed on them by the government's acceptance of the public sector er review body recommendations but without the additional cash to meet those awards and what this settlement er does represent mr deputy speaker is a further step along the road that we've been travelling since nineteen seventy nine.
the financing of local government is er again circumscribed, local government's ability to respond to the needs of the community it serves as it and its electors deem appropriate is being curtailed yet again and of course local government is losing its independence to central government and this centralising tendency which this settlement further represents is one of the most pernicious and corrosive characteristics of the modern conservative party.
it won't be lost on anyone concerned with the application of this settlement that despite the secretary of state's earlier remarks as the democratically controlled public sector, represented by local government, faces further cuts.
the undemocratic sector represented by the one hundred and eleven welsh quangos has seen budget increases.
in the case of the major bodies the d b r w, the w g a and the c b d c of over eight percent.
i don't think either, given the succession of scandals and the aura of sleaze hanging over the secretary of state's quango sector that anyone would deny that in terms of value for money and financial probity, direct democratic control is a far better watchdog than the financial control systems of the welsh office.
here, here.
the total standard spending of two thousand seven hundred and five million pounds is one hundred and five million pounds above the settlement for the current financial year.
the secretary of state has argued that this is nearly a four percent increase.
in the stricter sense it is nearly a four percent increase but that statistic itself is absolutely meaningless.
in the current financial year budgets what authorities would have spend in delivering services, not what the welsh office consider they should spend, were two thousand six hundred and eighty eight million pounds and against that the next years settlement which we're debating tonight, represents only a point six percent increase.
even that is not itself a true reflection of reality.
the current settlement, as the secretary of state indicated, includes provision for community care to the tune of eight six million pounds.
that itself is some forty million pounds below the association of welsh counties assessment of what is actually needed to meet the needs of the community and it is in any event not available for general spending.
so if that figure is removed from the spending total the current increase is only two point three percent above the settlement for nineteen ninety three, ninety four and being twenty eight million pounds, or one percent, below the current years budgets actually represents a four percent real terms reduction and that is a measure of the cuts which the government this year wishes to force on local government.
under any circumstances this would be difficult enough but this year welsh local government has to suffer the commu the cumulative burden of previous years cuts.
it also has to struggle with the social and economic consequences of the recession vested on the country by central government and of course it is expected this year to meet the costs of what is an unwanted and will be a costly and unsatisfactory reorganisation of local government.
predictably, while the government with one hand is distorting their expenditure and creating unnecessary expense, it is with the other reducing the discretion available to councils to raise their own resources.
the capping limits, unfair and arbitrary as they are, are again imposing a straight jacket.
all welsh counties for instance are limited to increasing their budgets of one point seven on point seven five percent over nineteen ninety three, ninety four are as the cities of cardiff and swansea and the borough of newport and it is this cap of one point seven percent as my honourable friend for cardiff south and penarth has pointed out, which is at the route of the funding problems of the south wales police authority area.
at the same time yes i i'll happily give way to the honourable gentleman.
specific point of the south wales police authority's difficulties, would he not say that at least they're partly due to the police authority believing that it was going to be er underspending in the current year and being out in its calculations by about two million pounds, wouldn't you think that that was at least a factor?
well i i think that the honourable gentleman really must accept that er coming from a party which is er in office in er in the welsh office and has er two hundred million, two hundred and eight million pounds i think unaccounted for last year, it really ill becomes him er to lecture, to lecture anybody.
the fact of the matter is that er the fact of the matter is that there has been er a c cumulative problem of er of expenditure in the south wales police authority area stemming back to nineteen eighty eight and they have faced an under funding of thirty eight million pounds since that time.
they've had er enormous difficulties and er the honourable gentleman will er know that the south wales police authority committee, its officers and its chief constable have er visited parliament er to put their case to members representing the south wales police authority area and indeed to er earl ferrers the minister er responsible for the police and they certainly haven't had any er criticism made of them by his own government and if er he believes that there is a criticism i would suggest that he takes a leaf out of the book of his er, his right honourable friend the secretary of state and refers the matter so that it can be properly audited and er i think the honourable gentleman knows that when that is done he will see that there is no blame attached whatsoever to the members or the officers of the police authority.
but i will give way if he wants to develop his point further.
is the honourable gentleman unaware that the district auditor has in fact indicated that there is a total lack of accountability or any sort of proper financial control in the police authority.
is he as the shadow spokesman for wales, unaware of that?
the er the honourable gentleman might well have seen a copy of the er the provisional report which has been prepared but that provisional report is er the same basis as the report er which was presented to er westminster city council er and then we weren't talking er a difficulty of er two million pounds created, created as a direct result of government under funding of the police authority there,we were talking about the expropriation of millions of pounds to line the pockets and to further the political interests of his party and i did notice the honourable gentleman er vociferous in his condemnation of westminster city council or any of the other tory controlled city councils.
but of course, of course is if there is any evidence whatsoever er of financial mismanagement in the police authority it is a matter which has to be properly investigated.
it has to be the subject of a proper report er by the er audit commission, but the district auditor and if they find that there has been er er wrong doing, if they find that there has been any er wilful neglect or if they find there has been any er unacceptable er maladministration then i will certainly join with the er the secretary of state in condemning that.
but i of course have the advantage of being one who condemns that degree of maladministration whether it applies in the democratic sector or in the quango sector and unfortunately, unfortunately despite all the corruption, i i'll give way to the honourable gentleman if i could just er finish the point i'm making, unfortunately despite all the corruption and all the mismanagement and all the fraud for which the secretary of state is personally responsible as secretary of state.
i'm going to ask professor lock if he would like to open on this er this matter and proceed policy to major exceptions etcetera.
how does that strike you?
i was expecting a chance to get my papers organized.
it's alright alright.
thank you sir.
the erm i think the best way to er start on this er.
sorry, david lock.
the best way to start on this dis section of this discussion may be to erm express the observation that the county council and at least one of the local authorities which is harrogate, erm are already engaged in have been engaged in for some time a very positive erm activity to try and attract to the county inward investment predicament that the economic development unit of the county council, the economic development of at of at least the one local authority that i have named and erm prospective developers such i'm representing today, share common predicament, is that the existing structure plan constructs some obstructions, erects some obstructions to the attraction of inward investment into the county.
existing structure plan in short is erm set out in such a way that it pos positively discourages the accommodation of inward investment on a large scale.
it is in the shared interest of of the parties i'm describing that this county should be able to attract and accommodate er inward investment of strategic significance to help the people of this county find the due employment that they need.
the difficulty we all share is how can one construct a planning framework which allows for strategically significant inward investment to be accommodated without declaring an open season of speculative proposals from developers and uncertainty at the local level up and down the county.
as you've seen from the erm discussion paper that we submitted sir, it's our feeling that the most helpful way to proceed might be to add a new policy to the alteration.
or alternatively adapt policy i five to allow for a strategic erm site or sites to be brought forward by local planning authorities in the course of their local plan work.
but clearly some way must be found to prevent the open house that is all our concern to safeguard the amenity and character of the county.
looking through our own experience in other parts of britain and having read some of the submissions of erm others on this subject, we reached the conclusion that the most helpful thing to do might be to have a policy which was criteria based.
and to set criteria for this strategic site exception policy which we feel should be added to the plan, to set this criteria in such a way that it would so point to the local authorities in the making of their local plans but it was clear that the policy did not provide a speculative opportunity for everybody any landowner throughout the county.
the criteria that we have suggested in the paper we've put in for for the discussion session stems from detailed observation and experience of what inward investment of the strategically significant kind might be looking for.
one of its most distinguished distinctive characteristics is the size of site which we know from experience which the county harrogate borough and ourselves at least have already here can be the order of magnitude of fifty hectares.
now almost by definition it's very very unlikely in this county that a site of that size development would be found within a built-up area.
but size is the first criteria it seems to me that one should be looking at.
on location where what criteria might be used to guide location, i've said it's most unlikely to be found in a built-up area, but clearly close to good communications networks is important and must be within a reasonably short travel time of the national highway network.
and i'll volunteer suggested in for me in the paper as a criterion that it also ideally should in my opinion have a the potential for railway connection given the thrust of policy a decade two decades ahead of us.
the next issue is that we know that these prospective inward investors are likely to be looking for a site in reasonably attractive setting.
this is very difficult because it means er it is a potential threat as it were to the countryside of the county.
so we're suggestion criterion which make it quite clear that such a strategic site should not under any circumstances be located in the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty, heritage coast, greenbelt and other specially designated areas of countryside protection.
another characteristic of the inward investors that two authorities and ourselves have had experience of is that it's likely that the user or users will want to have reasonably clean air, good water and the ability to work twenty four hours.
now that again suggests for this strategic type of inward investment a location away from existing built-up areas.
on the one hand for environmental reasons, for their environmental reasons i should say, and on the other hand so as not to come as a nuisance to residents of existing communities.
another safeguard that it seems to me that any such policy should have should be that development of the site must be possible without breaching reasonable and appropriate environmental standards.
so that in itself it must not create er air pollution or water pollution and so on.
and the last aspect of this sir is if you were to erm have a strategic site policy which as i was alluded to in my opening remarks, really is a chance for the planning system to catch up with what is actually happening in this county.
an enabling framework at strategic level to allow inward investment to be attracted.
if you have such a policy if you were to have criteria of the kind i'm alluded to erm does that still leave it too open in north yorkshire, might it still be too wide too many erm er opportunities might meet locations might meet these criteria.
and on this sir i, the way the discussion's been going over the last couple of days, erm i would like to point you at the experience of the nottinghamshire structure plan which i've got direct personal experience, where there the panel was persuaded to commend locations that isn't right for structure plan but was a felt able to erm name a district or district council in whose area such a strategic site might be located.
and i offer that as a idea for discussion.
policies which no doubt david erm allenby will explain later of harrogate would suggest that harrogate borough is one in this county that feels it could accommodate a strategic site.
there may be others, i'm guessing, presume that er mr hesel mr heselton is looking as though he might be welcoming of a strategic site given half a chance.
the point i'm trying to get at sir is that erm it is none of it is in none of our interests, either the planning authorities or even of the developers, that if we were to erm find a strategic sites policy appropriate for this alteration, it's in none of our interests that it should be confusing to the public or to the development industry as to how rare a thing this should be and how tightly directed it should be in geographical terms.
criteria i've su criteria i've suggested narrows the geography pretty precisely but if you felt the need, the local authorities felt the need, for even further protection it does seem to me from my own experience of the nottinghamshire precedent it is possible if if you felt so inclined and the county was to agree you could narrow it even further by naming one or two erm local authorities such a site erm should be discovered.
now that sets the general scene sir.
what i haven't done and i ought to because of the erm the way that this discussion has to unfold, i ought to say that pure few sentences about why should there be a strategic sites policy at all and erm i ought to put that on the record although it's pretty well trailed in all the paper work.
and it it goes like this that the economy of north yorkshire generally and of some of its districts in particular has reached the point where it is not possible from internally generated growth to provide er the jobs that the residents .
it is therefore necessary q e d for this county to be able to attract if it can some of the footloose investment which is available in britain and er generally in europe.
to attract that inward investment to provide local jobs it's necessary for north yorkshire to have one or more sites which are as available and as attractive as competing locations.
i've described some of the characteristics in those sites.
now this aspect of competition is inescapable.
in a planners ideal world where we might have a wholly directed economy competition would not be relevant but i'm afraid the reality is we have to compete in north yorkshire with other counties in er this region and with other regions in britain with other countries in the european union and with other countries in the world.
and what we have found that is the county, harrogate certainly and ourselves from direct experience this last two years, is that one of the features, we have an attractive county to such inward investors, its its environment, its people, its setting, its air and everything else is good, but one of the features that we have so far been unable to offer is a planning framework which means that the marketing authority can deliver, guarantee delivery of the planning consent that would make it happen.
as a result of that inability to guarantee a planning erm approval er this county has this county has lost one major inward investor within the last eighteen months already, referred to by name in the documentation that is kimberley clarke.
who were extremely keen to locate in this county, everything was right for them, mr allenby's borough had the site, my clients had the site should i say, and erm but we lost it to humberside because it was not possible for either harrogate or ourselves to look them in the eye and say yes we can guarantee planning consent.
there happens to be another current live inquiry of a germany car manufacturer.
that may be part of some bigger game going on about busting unions in germany, we're not green about that, but again the same question arises in the interrogation.
the people are right, the location is right, the situation is right but can you guarantee planning consent.
and under the present present planning framework it is difficult for us to do.
so for all those reasons sir there does seem to me to be erm the case for a policy which would allow this exception to erm attract to north yorkshire inward investment of this strategically important kind.
and as i said earlier on is how the key to this is how to construct such a policy that would protect the interests of the county in a general environmental sense, give local authorities the freedom in their local plans to set their stall out if that is what they want to do and er whilst avoiding provoking a rash of speculative developments erm er all over the place.
i believe that a criteria based policy might the best way forward for that.
thank you.
thank you.
can i ask you professor lock to say a little about what you consider the housing implications of such a policy might be?
yes.
and 
sorry.
a bit more about the the range of employment you would envisage on the sort of fifty hectare site that you've talked about.
do you mean range in terms of numerical quantity or type or all sorts?
er oh all.
please.
certainly.
the, i've forgotten what your first question was now .
housing 
housing right.
the i'm not an economic development officer so the er breadth of the perspective i have is limited from market experience rather than from a broader overview.
the market experience is that the inward investors of this scale on the strategic importance that we're discussing generally speaking generate no significant housing demands as part of their package.
there may be a handful of key employees brought in by that company to the location to establish the plant erm and to erm recruit and run the work force but my experience of these inquiries and prospective inquiries is that generally speaking they are looking to recruit labour locally and so this is not a housing generator type of development.
this is a job supplier type of development.
as to the type of employment the interesting feature that i experienced over the last two to three years as shown is that the inquiry level the type of inquiries has tended to focus on manufacturing and the attraction has been the quality of the work force, that is both in skill and its healthiness you know the liability and there are other issues in there too about where britain is at these days in terms of immunisation wage levels, but it is the people that are themselves the major attractors so the potential work force in the locality that is the major attractor .
and that the business has been predominantly the nature of business has been predominantly manufacturing.
detect a bit of a question mark and the end of er sorry er er doubting tone as to in my voice that i'm not sure that that would be so in the decade ahead.
i i simply don't know but the paperwork i've seen says that erm it is as likely in the next four or five years that major inward investors could be in the b one office type of employment as they happen to have been in the last couple of years in the manufacturing class.
it may be you see that the manufacturing flavour of the past two years was to do with the pre er common market period getting inside the european union ring fence with the manufacturing plant and there is speculation as to whether that will now change that the common market is now established and that that window of opportunity for manufacturing has tended to recede suggesting that it may be erm administrative er er services service sector that erm these international companies would now want inside the union.
we don't know but i don't know but that is a doubt as to whether the manufacturing flavour of the past will be carried on through the decade.
it is also fair to say, and i must be up front about this because it is a matter of it is probably the most sensitive aspect of this whole debate, is about b eight warehousing and distribution.
this county is one that for quite a long time has had the policies, i think it's it's e it's number eleven e e eleven is it or i eleven
i i i eleven.
thank you, in the existing structure plan.
there's a there's a established prejudice against warehousing and distribution er developments in this county in the existing structure plan.
to be candid with you i would expect there to be, i'm certain, that there will be demand for er modern warehousing and logistic floor space of strategic scale strategic importance er in this county.
and i know this presents the county council with some problems i don't know currently what the the local authorities' view on it is.
but do let me say a couple of things about it.
a subject i happen to know quite a bit about because we've got seven and a half million square feet erm in development at the moment in lutterworth at magna park.
modern warehousing and logistics can yield good job densities.
er modern logistics floor space will at the very least yield about a thousand jobs sorry a hundred jobs per thousand square feet.
er sorry getting all my digits in the wrong place.
try and get it right.
it is a hundred jobs per hundred thousand square feet, that's right.
and the reason why those job densities work like that is that modern logistics floor space comes brings with it typically an office element unit.
so you'll get a big erm warehouse erm which may be typically erm computer controlled, retrieval systems, storage, inventory, stock control and all the rest of it which will employ a certain number of people.
but also with it comes erm office accommodation which is handling the clerical processing, ordering and so on of the business itself.
and that is a relatively new phenomenon and the type of warehouse which historically we all knew which was men in brown coats driving forklift trucks is not what it's about, it's about er pretty sophisticated labour erm dealing with erm computer systems and electronic retrieval systems and often working in shifts on twenty four hour basis.
now whether we would find in our strate if we were to have a strategic sites policy erm whether there's an issue there that it might let in as it were too much of that kind of land use and not enough of the manufacturing or proper office kind i think is worth kicking around the table.
and if it is an issue as to whether there's some way of containing that.
but i'll have to be very careful with it i i do expect, i would expect, that there would be inquiries for that kind of investment here erm it's just that we haven't any major ones in the last couple of years of that type because the overall framework here is opposed to it.
i suspect the answer to my first question is about numbers of jobs, by virtue of what you've just said as long as a piece of string.
would you like to hazard a guess about how long the string might be?
on the number of jobs?
well, if you'll just, if i'm allowed to turn round and consult the chap sitting behind me i can actually give you a direct a direct answer.
it's sorry, i'm going to have to do some mathematics because what my friend is telling me it it curious it's it's the thirty four per hectare.
right 
i've actually i've actually been doing some arithmetic while you were talking 
thank you.
on the basis of a hundred per hundred thousand square feet to which you'd have to add obviously a sort of surrounding area from the square footage used for a distribution warehouse, it looks as though it's around about the thirteen
yeah.
per hectare.
something like that.
i'm i'm embarrassed about that because 
it's alright.
the speech we had about job densities yesterday.
it obviously wasn't accidental that it worked out that way.
yep.
thank you.
thank you.
can i can i, before we go to mr potter, erm may be my slightly naive mind here but i distinguish when you start talking about a strategic site approach to planning for and one of provision within north yorkshire er as being different from an approach based on major exceptions in that in the sense that you would actually plan for the ability to cope with what my colleague calls the ointment coming over the horizon.
in other words, major inward investment not relocation of major investment within the u k but major inward investment from say western europe or japan or wherever.
another nissan or toyota.
erm against that there is this elephant which appears, and you say we might have it and find a zoo for it, and in fact we can't move fast enough to find the zoo.
now the the problem with the dealing with i i suspect with the major exceptions policy is that if you had it could you move fast enough in order to cope with that sort of animal appearing on your horizon which you wanted to capture.
surely in a way i'm answering my own point, you would have to go beyond just having a set of words on paper which says we have a major exceptions policy.
what do 
yes i 
what do you do in reaction to that?
you're looking at mr potter do want him 
i'm just throwing it open.
because i don't think he wanted to be asked question as his first question .
erm it it does like this sir that i would imagine that what what we're after here is a policy which would enable a local authority if it so wished to put into its local plan a strategic site.
so that by the time so that when you're out catching elephants you've already got the the the planning story is straight already as part of your net is that i've got a planning
yes.
mr potter.
erm david potter north yorkshire county council.
er in fact you have anticipated one of the questions i was going to ask.
are we talking here about the principle of major exceptions or are we actually talking about a site.
but the reason as it were was to address some of the issues er that professor lock has raised.
and i think i need to place this issue of inward investment in its proper context in terms of the county council's economic development strategy and the planning strategy for the county.
erm inward investment in terms of the county council's economic development strategy is recognized as important and i think professor lock quotes the economic development strategy.
i have the strategy in front on me but i it also the strategy also places the economy of the county in in that context in so far as we're dealing with er the county of north yorkshire is reliant upon some twenty five thousand small businesses employing twenty five people or less and has only forty one firms serving one local market employing over three hundred people.
this is an important area of concern obviously.
but the basic essence of the strategy focuses on the small firms which underpins the local economy.
in ret in terms of inward investment the economic development strategy focuses on inward investment it has a role to play.
er without suitable sites and premises inward investment cannot succeed since inquiries cannot be converted into jobs.
and the county council will actively promote key sites to potential inward investors.
it will seek to attract further inward investment based upon its strengths and by bioscience.
whilst inward investment 
can you can you submit that?
i i can certainly.
essentially what it's talking about it inward investment on small scale.
inward investment which could be accommodated within the existing plans existing strategies on existing sites.
and in fact at the greenbelt plan inquiry er er i i spent a considerable amount of time arguing on the issue of prestige sites and the availability of prestige sites within the greater york area already planned and available.
er i think the county council recognizes the role of inward investment but that it is a small part of the ec economic growth.
in fact the revised economic development strategy which professor lock probably doesn't have a copy of, refers to inward inward investment as being desirable erm and is of critical importance but whilst it will be vigorously sort in this way it has to be said that the bulk of north yorkshire suffers from a relative lack of financial incentives from central government in terms of whose regional policy does not have a priority.
even when north yorkshire sites have been short-listed by an investor on quality grounds the county has had no means of matching the financial incentives elsewhere.
and i think the er inward investors that professor lock is referring to in terms of the german car manufacturer er the information that we have is that those were the very factors they considered and erm north yorkshire is not short- listed.
erm we have not perceived that inward investment of this scale is required or that the economic structure of the county could support such a major investment.
it is based on small firms.
and i look at issues much broader that the sites availability.
availability of labour erm the structure of the labour force.
now in terms of harrogate for example that is largely focused on erm on the office commercial sector.
there is no obviously er pool of manufacturing labour or erm strong manufacturing base sufficient to support a firm coming in and and taking up these large quantities of land.
i mean why should this be in there'd be a strategic sites policy.
it's it's not necessarily possible to generate jobs from with within its own boundaries.
i mean the focus of the plan and the way we've approached erm trying to identify the appropriate level of of land takes into account all that we considered to be the needs of the local economy.
and i think this inward investment that professor lock is referring to and the scale of investment that he is referring to must be considered as additional and and would draw in additional jobs.
i think that's all i i'd like to say on that for the moment.
any one else want to participate in this discussion?
mr allenby.
thank you chairman.
er david allenby harrogate borough council.
erm obviously the borough council strongly advocates the the principle of a strategic exceptions policy and i think there there is some difference between what professor lock is advocating and what the borough council is advocating.
from a planning point of view we're advocating that there should be a criteria based policy within the structure plan.
er we're not seeking a er a side based initiative if you like as such, although that might come later.
so we're looking for a for a separate policy in the industry employment section of the structure plan, we do not wish to see any amendment to part of e two or for that matter to policy i five, both of which we we fully support.
in making a case for for a new exceptions policy our our starting point really is the erm strategic planning framework provided by structure plan, that's policy i five and the proposed policy e two.
and we feel that both of those policies combine to establish what is in effect a presumption against erm any form of significant employment development away from the the county's main settlements.
and i think this is particularly important in the context of the section fifty four a.
we've heard from from professor lock there are some economic development projects which because of their size or their importance or their locational requirements just can't be accommodated in and around the main settlements of the county.
and these developments may be of regional or national importance and they're usually footloose and and clearly would have very significant employment benefits for the local population.
and it's these developments that the borough council wishes to see embraced by a new policy.
in effect the borough council would like to see a framework established which acknowledges explicitly that in the right circumstances strategic employment development can be accommodated in the county.
in our view such developments will only be attracted to an area if there is a clear prospect of of a site being made available as an exception to normal blank policies to meet those very specific requirements.
and a key in all of this and professor lock er mentioned is why should we have er a strategic exceptions policy, why why do we want to attract those sort of developments to the county and more specifically perhaps harrogate district?
and in that i can only speak for the harrogate district erm but the situation may well apply to other districts.
yesterday professor lock referred to to harrogate's bubble having burst.
erm indeed over the last two or three years the borough council's become extremely concerned at the deteriorating economic situation within the district and particularly around harrogate itself.
the current in harrogate's case significant number of major job losses and we we estimate that those amount to between three and four thousand jobs, er many of which we feel are still to come through the system and are therefore not reflected in unemployment figures of yet.
the result of all this has been a rapid rise in in registered unemployment er nevertheless and a steep rise in in long term unemployment.
and particularly of concern to us an adverse structural shift in various employment sectors.
and the borough council has responded to this situation by adopting a number of policy objectives including the one which seeks to attract appropriate inward investment projects.
and we feel that in order to facilitate this a planning policy initiative is is needed.
we've looked at those initiatives and there seem seemed to me to be to be three approaches.
firstly, the council could have opted for a significant increase in the er i five allocation and to go on to see to identify a site in the local plan.
and for a number of reasons we we felt that this wasn't appropriate er primarily because it's it's an inflexible approach.
erm it isn't really tailored to meet the needs er of the sort of developments we're talking about.
in effect anything allocated under i five would have to be made available in or in or around main settlements.
secondly we could've or we could accept the status quo and and do what the county council's suggesting.
in other words, we would deal with applications as they come forward on an ad hoc basis where the onus onus would be on the developer to prove er prove exceptional circumstances.
in our view this is not acceptable either.
the main problem here is that that sort of approach wouldn't give potential inward investors any confidence at all that a strategic development would be acceptable within the county or within the district.
in other words, uncertainties about the planning posture towards a proposal and doubts about local local authorities' ability to approve a site are likely to deter potential investors at an early stage.
the third option is to go for a strategic exceptions policy in the structure plan and obviously this is what er the borough considered considers is appropriate.
we feel that this would provide a framework for the evaluation of the material considerations which the county council has accepted can come into play.
and it appears from what the county council has said that they are they're not necessarily opposed to this sort of development that we're we're looking at here but that er the case would have to be proven as an exception to normal planning policy.
all we're seeking is some explicit acknowledgement within the plan that there may be circumstances where this type of development will be appropriate.
the type of policy we're actually seeking is already included in the humberside structure plan and i see this morning that er that was circulated as d four double o seven.
er in fact it is actually erm er re reproduced in my my evidence, paragraph four and five.
now that policy and i think think i'll it out, the proposals for industry and commerce that are not in accordance with the relevant policies of this plan would not normally be permitted but special provision for very large projects may occasionally be made in exceptional circumstances provided that, and there are three criteria, there would be substantial proven employment or other benefits to county residents, the proposal cannot reasonably be implemented on land proposed in local plans for industrial or commercial development bearing in mind the undertakings operational requirements, and thirdly, that there are no overriding planning objections.
now that seems to us to be a very good way forward in establishing a framework for for the consideration of those sort of proposals.
it's clear from from that sort of policy that the need for or benefits arising from the development would always have to be assessed against environmental and other considerations, for example, regional strategy.
which is what the county council suggests could happen anyway.
in this case however there would be a proper framework for for that evaluation to take place.
to conclude therefore the borough council strongly urges the panel to recommend the county council to include a strategic exceptions policy.
before i finish i i just wonder whether i could put one point to the county and that's whether in the absence of a strategic exceptions policy in the structure plan, they would allow the borough council to include the type of policy we're seeking in our district wide local plan bearing in mind that some of the considerations in involved are of a strategic nature.
before you before you respond mr williamson, mr heselton do you want to just pick up the 
thank you sir.
same sort of feel that mr allenby's been dealing with?
yeah.
terry heselton selby district.
erm i'm in i'm in some difficulty because this is this is a matter that's arisen since the original matters er matters for discussion were drawn up so i'm not able to give you the formal views of the council in that respect.
but it it might be worth if if i outline my own office view 
well let me have your professional view.
right well yes that's what i was about to do.
erm well as i've as i've in my submission i i think we can give qualified support for the proposal that erm harrogate have put on the table.
i'll come as no surprise to you that er what's been suggested would be consistent with the sorts of arguments that that i put forward yesterday.
erm going back to to my point that the existing development plan system hasn't served selby district particularly well.
and picking up professor lock's point erm we are certainly in the market to attract footloose investment.
erm interesting that that dave allenby's men mentioned the humberside policy and again just just to reiterate very briefly the the point i made yesterday.
we had some discussion about competition, if i can use that word, between ourselves and and leeds, but where selby sits in in north yorkshire we are in competition with with more than just west yorkshire.
we've got the south yorkshire authorities wakefield and doncaster in particular and also the the humberside authorities as as well.
so i think it it would fit in with the the council's a adopted economic development strategy.
i think basically having having heard the argument put forward from from both sides what what we're really talking about is a is a policy that in in terms of its support from the districts it depends whether or not any particular district council might have such a use for the policy.
and and i think i i'm able to to to give that level of support from selby district's point of view.
two concerns that that i do have are one in in relation to the er criterion and the safeguards that might also be be put in place with the policy.
and er got three suggestions really to add to the criteria that professor lock's put forward.
one is that i think in order to overcome some of the objections that that we heard from leeds yesterday in terms of the erm the urban regeneration policies, that any proposal would would certainly need to be re-relocating from outside the region.
erm secondly, it might reasonably be expected to demonstrate that it would be in the interests of either the region, regional or sub- regional economy.
then that thirdly, it it would need to help fulfil the economic objectives or the employment needs of the receiving authority which which i guess in in many respects boils down to nominating a particular authority or authorities if if you like.
erm where i have to qualify my my support is is, and and i do particularly want to stress that in no way would i accept the exceptions policy as a substitute to an appropriate increase in the employment alloca allocation for selby district.
because clearly an increase in in in the allocation sends a much stronger signal to potential investors and it carries with it a greater degree of certainty as far as the district council's concerned, as far as potential investors are concerned.
and also of course as a far as local people are concerned.
the implication 
so sorry can i just ask, so in effect you haven't shifted your ground from the view which you expressed in paragraph three point six of your submission where you've just confirmed in fact that you'd rather have a proper or the ability to make a sort of proper measured allocations, part of which would make provision or allow the facility to cater for major inward investment?
er terry heselton selby district.
well,another way of putting it is that this might be an additional er policy that that would help us as well as er
yep.
as an increase in the all in the allocation, but that the main message is is that i wouldn't like it to be a substitute for that.
no right.
thank you.
is the implication of what you've just said to the chairman that you agree with mr allenby that this animal is a different one than anything that might go to an i five site?
terry heselton selby district.
yes i think i think that that that is the case.
but but equally it may it may be in the in the fullness of time that that we would be able to identify or bring a site forward through the local plan process and we're not at that stage at the moment.
right.
i have some knowledge of the lutterworth site to which professor lock referred and of the toyota site at derby.
professor lock will no doubt correct me if i'm wrong but from memory in neither of those cases was there the sort of provision in the development plan which you're now seeking.
it may be, but i can't remember, that both of them preceded section fifty four a.
was that true at lutterworth?
i'm i'm not competent on, er david lock, i'm not competent on toyota.
erm all i have is the layman's knowledge that it was a gift to edwina curry's constituency .
er erm and i don't think it had a planning history.
the the erm situation for lutterworth er magna park however i i am familiar with and it certainly preceded section fifty four a and erm in in there were two phases.
er the first of erm er three three million square feet, second of four and a half, and erm the er in both cases it triggered the call-in procedure under the departure and in both cases er a public inquiry had to be held er or the secretary of state chose to call a public inquiry.
and in both cases that took two and a half years.
but hasn't prevented either.
it hasn't prevented either 
going ahead.
no but the the, sorry you're quite right.
erm the difference is that erm it a magna park is specifically an exclusively rather, exclusively geared to to b eight and is absolutely slap bang in the middle of the country on the conjunction of the m six m one and the a one m link route and everything else.
erm the land is a disused airfield required very cheaply so there was no great exposure in getting that site away and its first occupiers were the company that had bought it and asda did their own buildings to begin with for their own use.
what we're talking about here is a is a different circumstance where the erm competition for inward investment up here further north is more intense.
a number of erm elephants coming into view is fewer.
there are fewer elephants about up here erm and er the issue that obviously concerns me from the development point of view is the is the time scale, is the process rather, that that the planning policy would im would imply.
and sorry, while i'm speaking i'm i'm left a little confused.
when you heard me i was imagining a process whereby you'd have a strategic sites policy in the structure plan which would enable a local authority in preparing its local plan if it wished to identify a strategic site and that would then become in the local plan, you know subject to all those consultation processes, and then it's part of the portfolio that is available in the published arena with a statutory framework behind it.
erm david allenby didn't talk like that.
we haven't swapped notes on this aspect of it.
he maybe sees a different process and and i don't know about you chairman but it would it would help me to see if to hear whether they they see a different process at work.
david allenby harrogate borough council.
erm my starting point on all of that is the development issues report that erm we put to our members in may of this year where we discussed the issue of strategic exceptions policies and how we would deal with with that sort of approach in in the local plan.
and the conclusion of that is we go for a criteria based approach for the time being, see see what the response was to that er and nothing was said about identifying the site as such.
i think the difficulty with taking a a site approach is that it's difficult erm to assess what the employment benefits are of something that you're not sure about.
erm now it may be that on a particular site erm conditions could be laid down to ensure and secure that there were significant employment benefits accruing from the development of that site.
but what we had in mind in looking at this through the the local plan was that er we'd be looking at specific end users to see what the benefits were of those those end users and to assess those benefits against any environmental harm that there would be and strategy as a whole.
so i think erm there is there is a difference between us in all of that, but that needn't necessarily mean that we won't identify a site in the future.
can i take it from what you said professor lock that you would envisage this policy as providing for b one b two and b eight development?
yes.
yes that it would e it would exclude none of those possibilities is how i would 
given the stance of policy approved policy i eleven in relation to b eight development and the fact that we are here discussing an alteration not a review and replacement of the structure plan, does anyone around the table she said looking hard at mr saunders, see any difficulty in the panel poten potentially recommending a policy which would be in direct wi conflict with the policy which is not before it?
les saunders department of the environment.
since the department since the regional office has been suggesting for some time, or throughout the entire process of this structure plan alteration, that erm an exceptions policy should be considered by the erm county council, i think it would be consistent that we would anticipate the panel could reach a conclusion on the inclusion of the major exceptions policy as part of this alteration.
was the regional office conscious in making that, i'm sorry that was not that pause intentional, was the regional office conscious in making that suggestion that b eight uses were being advocated to be included and therefore the conflict potentially was a policy which was not before it?
i think that's a fair point.
i think that b eight was not upper most in the department's mind when it was making its er views known about a major exceptions policy.
thank you sir.
so if the panel were minded to recommend an exceptions policy then in the in the light of i eleven we we'd have great difficulty in recommending other than b one and b two uses.
perhaps er my understanding was as as i guess mr saunders' understanding of this policy was before professor lock mentioned lutterworth, that it was primarily manufacturing or b one, b one or b two.
this is this is now a now a terribly important issue.
i it is not envisaged i mean i mustn't mislead you at all i want i want to be understood on this issue.
nobody is that i'm that i'm aware, is proposing a distribution park of strategic importance .
yet.
yet.
erm what i was trying to do was be candid about what kind of er inquiries of the strategic kind might be expected to come if this county had that kind of policy.
i think what i imagined erm miss whittaker and chairman is that erm if you get the criteria right then this exceptions policy would also be an exception to i eleven, but it would have to pass this criteria.
in other words it would have to be job beneficial, it would have to be of strategic importance and and all those other things we've been discussing.
but i think i had imagined it would it would allow, if it was wanted, it would allow i eleven to be overridden it would be one of the things it would be an exception to.
i think potentially professor lock you could be inventing some work for barristers given that policy i eleven says provision will not be made.
it does doesn't it?
but then if we're exempting ex exceptions policy except as maybe provided an exception policy number seven .
.
i can i can see the the trap here.
erm it maybe that in this alteration the erm it's worth just spending a minute on whether b eight should just be kept out of the frame for the moment and it's something that gets dealt with at a later time when more policies are in play.
can i ask would that seriously if it were limited or by virtue of the panel report having identified this problem we reported that we saw a problem if it included b eight, would that be a problem from the point of view either harrogate or selby if b eight was in effect, if not in the policy itself, excluded?
david allenby harrogate borough council.
erm perhaps i could answer that chairman by saying that the policy i've suggested from the humberside structure plan would er would i think cover that er problem in that it starts off by saying, proposals for industry and commerce that are not in accordance with the relevant policies of this plan will not normally be permitted.
and then put special provision for very large projects.
so there is a recognition there that by the very nature of these erm proposals that they're not going to be in accordance with one or perhaps more policies in the structure plan.
thank you.
thank you sir.
er terry heselton selby district.
erm i don't think it would would cause us a a tremendous problem.
erm can i also draw your attention to the to the second erm part of the of the policy that would at least permit that type of development provided it it was able to demonstrate a need to be located in north yorkshire.
so it's not an absolute exclusion is it?
you're talking about i eleven?
i eleven sorry yes.
yes it's not it's not absolutely exclusive.
mr broughton.
thank you chairman.
as i said this morning doesn't oppose er in principle the idea of of of er an exceptions policy.
but er looking at er professor lock's suggestion and the criterion that is set out there i think er a number of people might be interested to have a go at those criteria so to speak.
and certainly from erm my department's point of view we would be looking for er an inclusion of a criterion on the need to avoid higher quality agricultural land.
that's it.
mr earle and then mr potter.
thank you chairman.
patrick earle richmondshire.
i also speak with a, a while ago now, but a certain amount of experience in northumberland working for the county council in bringing development into cramlington new town, so i am aware of the er the merits of er getting your elephants by having a cage already made.
find some of them insist on finding their own cage and er so you do then have to er have a flexible approach.
but i think the analogy begins to break down and i'll go on to erm straight forward thinking in richmondshire erm where we wouldn't recognize an elephant if we saw one.
.
i've just been told er to my right it's a very large sheep.
erm
.
shame.
no.
the scale of development that's in professor lock's contemplation is plainly not one that i i think that would directly er affect richmondshire and so to some extent er i'm speaking from that perspective.
although fifty hectares at thirty per hectare i mean fifteen hundred jobs erm and i think we've got eleven hundred or a thousand on our total unemployment role.
so plainly that wouldn't necessarily apply to us but the the except the exception would be sitting there in policy and i i think it's a it's something we we would find very difficult er to live with.
erm you see the question is how far how wide to the exceptions go.
er mr broughton's just brought in another one that he he wants er qualification on.
how how many other policies of the structure plan would this apply to?
wild life conservation, er and other conservation issues er would be brought into question.
erm i i foresee the possibility that erm we would be faced with lesser proposals lesser than the scale that erm professor lock contemplates because it would be said, well if fifty hectares is right for ha er for harrogate then what twenty hectares for richmondshire ten hectares.
er and and and so the the the policy would perhaps be extended.
erm the the question would ultimately come out, well why not retail?
i i the retail's not within what we've been talking about this afternoon but on the other hand it does employ more people per hectare than any industry we've been talking about as as far as as far as i understand it.
i see a danger that every single motorway interchange in the county, and heavens in the country, will be subject to an interpretation of this er of this sort of exceptions approach.
and it's that in itself has been er er an issue faced by ministers on the m twenty five.
erm the the er professor lock was saying well you know the way you get your footloose industry is to present them with an absolute guarantee of planning permission.
well no ideas have been put forward this afternoon in terms of a structure plan alteration er or an additional policy, will give an absolute guarantee.
i mean obviously the it's a i perhaps it's an exaggeration to the effect that nobody can guarantee planning permission until they've got planning permission.
and this is why i think the approach that harrogate would perhaps be thinking of and we ourselves would be thinking of if this is the way we wanted to go is simply to go out and get a site and get planning permission on it.
and present it to a prospective developer.
erm or short of that a firm local plan allocation with all the consultations and environmental impact study already done.
other other than that you cannot guarantee planning permission.
and what our colleagues in county durham again in northumberland we were able to do is was this was all in place.
here's the planning permission here's the site if you insist on going there well we can't give you any guarantees but we'll do our best for you, but certainly the best thing is to have the allocation.
and if that allocation is pushed through, if you like in the teeth of the structure plan policy, but it becomes your local plan, and that's the legislation provides for that, that surely must be the the question.
just one other other point, there is the issue of sustainable development professor lock referred to erm alright we'll bring in the railway line er as as part of your criteria, but i am concerned at the the general dispersal that is er envisaged in the sort of development er that he suggested.
erm so as i say to to get your erm to get the elephant er have the cage with planning permission.
thank you.
mr potter.
thank you.
david potter north yorkshire county council.
erm i think professor lock appears to be talking about a site specific proposal.
the borough council refers to a criteria based policy.
yet i think the borough council gave some clear hints they're maybe looking for additional land allocation.
now i think it would be helpful if the borough council could clarify whether that is in fact what they're looking for an additional land allocation.
but i would like to point out the county council point of view on both a site or a criteria based policy.
in fact er professor lock in his hin in his own evidence er page five para four three refers to a rash of speculation alo along the a one m in the county, as to which locations the policy might be said to apply.
i think that is the fear of the county council that a criteria based policy would lead to a sp a rash of speculation speculative development along the er the major motorway corridors.
erm with regard to a site specific policy, if it's additional, and there's no clear need for it it's not catered for within the allocation which is er provided for within the structure plan, then we could be left with a major site with a clear commitment to its development or its suitability for development and and no end user.
now what would happen to the site in those circumstances?
a major business park, er a major manufacturer, a major distribution centre, erm with the consequences for perhaps in commuting and trans er transport movements.
i think these are the fears of the county council that er the uncertainty such a policy would bring.
would the more explicit specification in a policy like e four of humberside, excuse me, that the development should not be speculative, in other words that the end user should be known, overcome some of your concerns?
i think if the end user was known then the end user is perfectly capable of submitting a planning application.
erm and it could be dealt with on its merits.
i don't think there's anything within fifty four section fifty four a which precludes that.
david allenby harrogate borough council.
i just wanted to come back on er david potter's assertion that we were looking for a a higher allocation under i five and i i thought i'd specifically covered that point by saying that that wasn't what we were looking for because that wouldn't address the sort of development we're talking about here.
er another allocation under i five would simply mean that we'd more land to find in and around main areas.
erm those sites are subject to other lo locational restrictions and other environmental restrictions and wouldn't in our view be appropriate for the sort of development that he's looking for erm a location in in our context anyway generally speaking along the a one corridor.
could i just have mr jewitt first.
michael jewitt hambleton district council.
erm i tend to share patrick earle's reservations about this particular policy, i think that it would convey the wrong message erm to the development industry.
erm undermine the policies of conservation and restraint in the county.
there's also a danger, as patrick earle's pointed out, though it would be applied differently between different districts erm given erm that erm erm relative issues on unem unemployment and the economy will er differ between between districts.
i question really whether or not this erm this policy is needed erm to meet local employment requirements.
i think it should be erm local councils should be able to bring their requirements from allocated sites provided they make the appropriate er provide an appropriate choice of location and size of sites erm up to the erm levels proposed in the county.
and i really do question whether the potential benefits of such such an exceptions policy really erm are worth undermining those strategic policies of conservation and restraint.
i tend to think that it should really be left outside the development plan process and it should be for individual developers to prove exceptional needs.
that way it can be dealt with through the departure process and the checks and balances the departure er introduces erm are in place erm to to protect local interest.
do you want to come back on something or can i ask professor lock to
well it was really er, ken williamson of north yorkshire.
it was really er the point er mr allenby made.
it seems to me that what we're talking about here is harrogate's land allocation being, not necessarily an i five, but sixty hectares which he agreed was adequate for i five yesterday, plus i suspect another fifty which would be a strategic site.
although there may be differences between er professor lock's approach and harrogate's superficially i think the the mutual objective seems to be er between the two strategic site within the development plan in harrogate district and on the access one site of the a one a fifty nine junction.
could i check out i i mean i'm still not sure whether harrogate are happy with sixty hectares at i five to meet their requirements, that was what i understood yesterday.
are we talking about another fifty hectares really to add on to that?
not necessarily as i five but as another fifty hectares as industrial or employment land whatever you'd like to call it.
david allenby harrogate borough council.
i'm not sure how clearly i have to spell this out.
no we're not looking for an increase in our i five allocation.
that is not going to help in this situation.
we support the i five allocation.
what we're looking for is a new policy initiative which will allow in appropriate circumstances inward investment of er er a significant strategic nature to be accommodated within north yorkshire and that could possibly probably be harrogate district.
thank you.
professor lock.
sir.
erm er four or five points.
er the contribution to the discussion made by mr jewitt of hambleton erm is a necessary contribution but it really doesn't fit or sit well with the economic circumstances of other parts of the county.
i don't know about hambleton but erm talking in er erm on high ground about conservation and so on erm is very difficult when a local authority is faced with structural change in its economic base and major unemployment.
i mean that is a serious social and political issue to which there should be in my submission a planning response.
we can't just ignore it erm it is proper planning to try and do something about it.
on the second er the second point to make is that erm on the county council's end of this equation, er mr potter er referred us to the county's economic development strategy, i think i've got that latest edition, where he was erm attempting to tell us that the erm county's economic strategy is to attract inward investment of a small scale type.
that is indeed part of their strategy but the fact of the matter is that the county council is wholly implicated in the efforts that have been made in this erm county over the last couple of years to get large scale inward investment.
that is a factual situation which i hope mr allenby would be able to erm endorse it if it becomes a matter of dispute between us.
erm the county is implicated in the search for erm er large scale investment.
it also puts money into the yorkshire and humberside development association which is wholly involved and has been for the last two years in trying to get large scale erm strategic inward investment into the county, and erm it is a erm awkwardness i think that it's best to be open about that the planning policy of the county is out of tune with the day factor activities of the economic development side of the of the county council.
third point erm relates to the proposal from the gentleman on the left here about agricultural land as an additional criteria.
erm that has been a matter of serious discussion here and i know with some of the local authorities, and the fact of the matter is sir that we feel that if we look at the agricultural land quality of this county, if you were to have a criteria based policy which included the requirement that strategic sites should avoid good quality agricultural land erm you haven't got a policy at all because this is a county which has mostly its territory covered by good quality agricultural land especially in those parts of this county where strategic development might be expected to actually happen.
that brings me to this last point about criteria.
erm i forget which discussant it was but it it's wrong to think that there's a difference i think between erm me, i was being characteritured as wanting a site specific policy, and harrogate who were being characteritured as wanting a criteria based policy.
i i think there's a fit in this.
what i'm trying to suggest is a criteria based policy at the strategic scale.
the purpose of that is to remove from mr jewitt at hambleton and mr earle at richmondshire and any others erm who just don't want this kind of pressure brought upon them, er by putting criteria in at the strategic scale you could derive that criteria and maybe even name local authority areas to make to protect those who do not want this feature.
where i talk about sites specific is to get down to this nitty gritty about which comes first, the erm inquiry or the erm planning consent.
and again to spell that out erm the way it needs to work in practice i believe is that in its local plan a local authority should be able to define a site which it would regard as suitable for development only for these strategically important reasons.
in other words it's not part of its standard employment allocation but it's put it in the local plan so that people know, the locals know, that that field over there those fields over there erm are not guaranteed for ever as countryside but on the other hand they're jolly well not gonna be released unless it's for something extremely special for which there would be a statement carried through from the structure plan, elaborated on no doubt at local level, which set the rules.
erm that zoning that allocation in a local plan backed by this erm er er policy in the structure plan would be enough in my judgement to enable the economic development people to actually capture the, get the elephant in the trap.
but indeed it is not planning permission.
because that elephant is going to probably require an environmental assessment or environmental statement erm and there would be infinite numbers of details to tie up in section one o sixes and goodness knows what else specific to that user or users, those users when they the came in the frame.
but unless you've erm got the certainty from the planning framework point of view that subject to those important details its planning permission is deliverable, then the elephant will go somewhere else.
there is a restaurant in my home town, as i guess there is in many, called something special.
i have eaten there once and came away describing it as something not very special.
how, picking up on the terms you use professor lock, how would the policy guarantee that what this elephant was special?
i anticipate that because that's becoming now a key question.
and and what i've got in front of me, david lock, what i've got in front of me is is erm, and i know david's got it david allenby's got it as well, is the er paper from harrogate's economic development officer to his economic development sub-committee, and it's gone all the way through the process now and through the main council, where he has to answer that very question and i couldn't put it better.
what he says here it says, there are an investment project, miss whittaker, whose size, composition, economic significance and locational requirements make it impossible to locate on an ordinary site, so that's one one issue, and then he says, of regional significance or more often national or international significance.
and this is how you clear that one up.
relating to investment that could locate elsewhere in the u k or in europe but which would only be attracted to this site if it, to to a site, if it is erm sorry,availabil if the availability of this site, if this site is made available on terms similar to those of competing locations.
so picking the bones out of that, it's size, composition, economic significance and locational requirement means that you can't bed it down in your ordinary i five allocation.
that's one criteria.
and then it's got to be regional, national or international investment which could go elsewhere in the u k or in europe.
now that kind of language which is what this chap is is using here would seem to me to be setting the the erm frame in a way which really would protect erm a locality from er this policy being a stalking-horse for something that is ordinary.
it really these are quite hurdles to jump over.
could we have a copy of that er paper?
yes by all means yep.
mr broughton.
no i think mr broughton, did you want to come back mr broughton?
yes.
and then and then mr feist.
just on one of the points er made by professor lock erm who was arguing that it it basically wasn't possible to include an agricultural land quality criterion er in the exceptions policy because there was so much good land in north yorkshire.
erm our estimate of the proportion of of agricultural land in the county which would be classified as best and most versatile land, that is having a considerable er weight in planning decisions grades one two and three a, is between thirty and thirty five percent.
er and that's of agricultural land not of all land in the county, so the proportion of the total land would be less than that.
so i don't think i would accept the professor's argument on that point i think there is plenty of scope for locating a development of this kind either on non-agricultural site or on moderate or poor quality land.
mr feist.
thank you.
michael feist countryside special sites could be in open countryside away from government policies concerning sustainability, i wonder how professor lock would see the situation emerging whereby a local authority has allocated a certain amount of land in its local plan for development for industrial or commercial purposes, it's tried to erm identify a broad range of criteria but it also identified special sites erm which will only be released in exceptional circumstances, that happened to be an open countryside and had the advantages that it may be a little close to the a one or somewhere similar.
most developers would probably opt for the open site policy on the bas open site erm area on the basis this would better meet their functional needs.
they don't have to worry too much about the eventualities and all the other sins that the planning process is concerned with.
so a local authority might then find itself in a situation that it'd got a two tier site.
one which the developer would prefer and one which the local authority and maybe sustainability policies would prefer.
in this case the developer would probably say to the local authority, i want this site and it's all or nothing, which then puts the local authority in a dilemma and in the sense its allocated sites are now seen to be some form second status.
and i can't help thinking that we might end up with a sort of repeat of the sort of situation that's occurred at octavius atkinson site which is erm mentioned in the erm the paper tabled this morning, whereby er a sort of market-led approach which puts a lot of pressure on the local authorities may be at the expense of the planning-led approach to erm deciding where development should most appropriately go.
but i'd i say that with full acceptance that there is a dilemma in trying to attract erm development to er to areas which badly need them.
i think that the question is how much are we going to sacrifice in order to satisfy the developers' erm er desire to have virtual guarantees that the site will be available as and when they want it.
thank you for that.
mr collier and then i think .
thank you chairman.
erm i'd like to make a point about the this question of an agricultural land quality criterion in the policy.
erm it seems to me erm that there's a danger that if professor lock has his way when the elephant comes crashing through into the clearing he will be sending richonds richmondshire's sheep flying in all directions and er will be er affecting lots of other other agricultural creatures at the same time.
erm what i think we need is an alternative to the suggestion made by mr broughton erm is simply erm a wording in the exceptions policy should it be er carried forward that makes it clear that the agricultural policies in the structure plan do still apply erm to to those proposals.
now the reason i i make that suggestion is that erm policy a two for example looks at not only the erm quality of the agricultural land but also the effect of development proposals on erm the maintenance and economically viable erm farm units and so forth.
er and therefore it looks at erm the indirect impact of development erm and it's it's more sophisticated one might say than merely looking at the quality of the land.
thank you.
thank you very much.
can we break for tea now come back at twenty five to four.
no no let's make it twenty to four.
then you'll have time to enjoy your tea.
thank you.
mr allenby are you ready to burst into song?
metaphorically speaking.
oh yes i don't know about song chairman but er suppose i'm singing a song of some sort.
erm i'd like just to re remind the county if i could about the question i did put in my opening er remarks that er we would like some view from them as to whether if their if their strategic exceptions policy isn't er ultimately included in the structure plan they would object to the principle of us er pursuing this sort of approach through our local plan.
obviously that's in general terms as a matter of principle.
i'd also like to just come back on one point that mr feist made about a a two tier approach to employment sites.
er that in my view won't happen because the i five sites we will still be allocating in and around the main urban areas.
a strategic site if it comes forward would be away from the main urban areas and would only be available for developments that could not otherwise take place on the i five allocations.
mr williams.
thank you sir.
a few brief comments.
erm i suppose scarborough borough council er having the most acute unemployment problems in the county er is as interested as anybody else in attracting new investment, but er i do wonder whether this particular approach is the right one.
erm it seems to me that we've been talking about capturing elephants but er is it really a trojan horse?
oh this gets worse.
erm the the county have have worked er very hard to produce a balanced strategy.
they they've looked at erm housing and er industrial development, er i wasn't at the discussion yesterday, but clearly they've put a significant effort into deciding what the appropriate level of new industrial development is.
and er with the exceptions policy erm how many exceptions would we allow?
i mean we're told that these erm types of development are few and far between.
er supposing the economy did take off erm we used up all the industrial land that er had been allocated to the districts.
er which took care of all the the local needs, reduced unemployment, er and we have a lot of these exceptions coming forward.
er do we then have a situation where the county's strategy's significantly undermined?
we attract a lot of new housing er requirements for new housing development er commuting is patterns have significantly changed.
erm i just feel it's er it's a dangerous policy.
thank you.
thank you.
could i er, david allenby harrogate 
just a moment just a moment mr allenby
could i just respond to that chairman 
alright yep.
erm that i think wouldn't be the case.
if if er i five sites have been taken up and employment needs of districts have been addressed and the county in general have been addressed, then er an inward investment wouldn't provide or offer substantial proven employment benefits.
those benefits don't need aren't there because there is employment.
so that that consideration would be waived in the balance and clearly erm it wouldn't be right to those sort of developments.
i don't i don't there is a is a problem in that respect.
thank you.
.
sharon watson craven district council.
er i think from craven's point of view erm we couldn't really see any justification for a strategic exceptions policy in craven's case.
erm craven's economic development strategy is based on growth amongst small local businesses erm and we have very few large employers.
erm mos mostly our economic base is through small businesses and that's where we see er the future growth of employment needs being satisfied.
erm i perhaps do have some sympathy for harrogate's position.
erm they perceive a need for this policy, er they have a a perceived structural changes in their economy and er there is resultant fear erm that perhaps they would not be able to respond flexibly enough er with the policies that are in place and see a need for this additional one.
from a purely selfish point of view, if the policy were to indicate specific areas of the county erm where this policy would er be appropriate and would apply erm and as long as it excluded craven , then i think 
clearly you know we've er it being in.
how however, i mean from a a broader point of view i think i would have some general reservations as have been confessed previously by mr earle and and mr jewitt.
erm but i do have some sympathy with harrogate's position and indeed selby's position er to some extent.
but certainly in the craven context i do not feel there is any justification for this policy.
no i think your neighbours to the south have a different perception to craven's strategic role.
yes they do.
if only in housing.
mr rudd.
julian rudd ryedale district council.
it's obviously time for all the districts to nail their cause to the mast.
if i could make clear that should the panel consider applying the exceptions policy to particular districts within the council with the county in fact, then ryedale stands alongside hambleton and craven and scarborough and richmondshire have enormous misgivings about the application of this policy certainly to our district.
thank you.
mr saunders.
thank you sir.
s saun les saunders d o e.
in in making our representations about erm a major exceptions policy erm the regional office had thought of it very much as a a facilitating policy to deal only with exceptional cases.
erm certainly we'd not anticipated that it would outweigh existing structure plan policies or outweigh existing policy e two.
erm it would be for the the policy itself to define the criteria such that it did only refer to exceptional circumstances and the occasional one or two cases.
i'd i'd submit the erm humberside policy e four erm not exactly as a as a model policy or even as best practice.
you may get one example of of what in a joint local authority have done.
perhaps if we if we looked a little at humberside's experience.
erm to the best of my knowledge erm policy e four has been utilized only one since this structure plan was approved in in nineteen eight seven er enabling erm one the districts and myself back to the humber to to acquire an an international erm company.
erm but it hasn't to the best of my knowledge it has not resulted in a rash of of developments and motorway intersections.
i i quite accept the the m eighteen m sixty two is not the the a one or the m one.
erm but erm i i merely pose it as as an indication that erm it is possible for local authorities to erm not open the door to development, speculative development, er if they do not wish to do so erm because it does not ride override existing structure plan policies.
erm others have have suggested that it could be handled through the existing .
if if a major proposal came along and the local authority wan district wanted to grasp it with both hands they could use the er existing erm development plan process to do so.
erm even if it was contrary to existing erm adopted local plan.
all i would say with regard to that is is it would seem to the regional office that consideration of those proposals that were in conflict with a with an approved development plan would be erm more easily facilitated if there was an approved strategic context against which they could be judged.
erm and it would in in us suggesting to the county council that they consider this policy we had in no way expected it to to to result in in in wholesale de erm development.
but er just a one the exceptional cases.
and as a a facilitating policy erm it in their it it assists all parties in er dealing with er applications that come forward that are contrary to reductive development plan.
mr williams.
thank you sir.
david williams scarborough borough council.
could i just clarify my position on this.
clearly er these are my personal comments because the issue hasn't been debated by the council.
erm first of all i i'm not in support of an exceptions policy.
er if there were to be an exceptions policy the suggestion has been made that certain districts perhaps could be identified er as being a suitable location.
erm if there was to be an exceptions policy er i wouldn't like scarborough to be excluded from it.
because er as i say erm if the opportunity came along and er given the unemployment problems in the borough erm it may be that we would wish to take that opportunity.
erm i mean i i don't see it but if the opportunity came along i think it would be invidious to have a policy which er only allowed those exceptions in certain districts.
thank you sir.
thank you.
mr rudd do you want to come back on something?
erm i didn't but i i shall.
if you leave it long enough you get picked on.
obviously.
julian rudd ryedale district council.
in in not supporting the application of such a policy to ryedale district, i'm not by any means saying that the district council would never support erm such elephants as er as have been referred to.
merely that we would not support the application of such a policy.
we'd rather deal with each proposal on its particular merits.
yep.
anyone else want to make any comments before i, is this to pick up points or can i 
chairman yes 
come back to you for something else?
yeah okay.
it is er chairman.
er ken williamson north yorkshire.
it's in response to mr allenby's question we seem to be patiently waiting for i think he posed it some time ago about the county council's view on whether in the absence of a strategic exceptions policy or whatever you call it, a major exceptions policy in the structure plan, whether the county council would object to it being pursued in the in the local plan.
chairman i think er i don't think we've got any any option but to say yes we we would.
i think at er the sort of level of development and the location implications of er such a strategic exception, fifty hectares in some location which was totally outside the context of approved locational policy, this would represent a significant element of really nonconformity with the plan.
i think we'd have to have to make our views known on that.
chairman i'd just david allenby harrogate borough council.
i'd just like to come back on that because i'm referring here to erm county council paper n y seven which was er relating to the i five i twelve issues we were issuing yesterday.
er in paragraph a hundred and eight of that paper and i'd i'd like to read er read a quotation out, however because an exception is not acknowledged it does not mean that provision could not be made for this.
much would depend on the particular circumstances at the time either in the context of a planning application or a local plan proposal.
the policy as expressed does not necessarily exclude development outside the area specified but directs development areas as a primary consideration.
therefore it is for the district council to justify any local plan policy which deviates from the county structure plan.
there seems to be some sort of implicit acknowledgement in there or even explicit acknowledgement that if we were able to justify the approach we could pursue it within a local plan and that doesn't really square with what mr williamson has just said.
david potter north yorkshire county council.
erm i was actually going to pick that point up in summary but er mr allen allenby has raised it.
i think er what the county council's position is in terms of the statement he's just read out it is that er the county council strategic framework, the structure plan alteration number three, the high fly policy which we discussed yesterday, is an attempt to address the needs of the districts and if we've got this right then sufficient land should be identified or allocated to the districts within policy i five.
erm we perceive no need at the present time for such an exception and the borough council seem to have accepted that.
they see that their i five allocation is sufficient.
er but we acknowledge that over time circumstances may change and that it may be appropriate and such circumstances erm needs may change different circumstances may arise and they would have to be dealt with within the strategic planning framework.
erm if at some time in the future a local plan picked up a change in circumstances and made a cogent argument inn favour of varying from the strategic framework, we would have to consider that on its merits.
the elephant analogy arose because most of us all of us recognize an elephant when we see one but it is very difficult to describe it
and mr potter has gone some way to acknowledging that in saying that the circumstances may change.
however if this undefined elephant arises, bearing in mind the time the development planning process takes, is it reasonable to think that the elephant would wait around long enough for that to happen?
we i i think we we discussed this briefly earlier in terms of erm if a proposal came forward it was perfectly within the remit of the applicant to make a planning application and to argue that circumstances had changed.
erm and there was nothing within the development plan system which would preclude this.
mr heselton and then mr earle.
thank you sir.
terry heselton selby district.
very briefly because i think that the senior inspector's partly er ans answered i want to make.
but erm apologies for going back to the to the discussion er yesterday but it it's merely just to remind you, picking up the point that mr potter's just made, that that certainly as far as selby district's concerned that circumstances have changed very drastically since the situation of ten years ago when the er the structure plan policies were were first drawn up.
er and and this is why we ask for for greater flexibility both in the allocation and in the wording of the policy.
and that's why i think i can give my qualified support to to the proposal for for an exceptions policy.
i i think it it it's clearly a problem for the panel to wrestle with as as to what response can the alteration make to changing circumstances particularly in relation to er to economic development.
i know we've had that debate at length in connection with the housing issue but i would just like to to leave you with that point again.
thank you.
mr earle.
thank you chairman.
patrick earle richmondshire.
first of all i do have some sympathy with my colleagues from other districts who, while not being in sympathy with the policy, wouldn't want to be excluded if there's er certain development opportunities being thrown in.
having said which er i i've already pointed out that i i see no great potential for fifty hectares in in our area.
but going on i'd like to pick the point made er from the department of environment about the exceptions policy and the way they envisage it.
because, i mean are we talking about a policy that says these exceptions from other structure plan policies erm may be judged in this way.
in other words would the individual applications still be regarded as a departure from the development plan?
i i that hasn't been made clear and erm you you then end up with getting down to the nitty gritty is this an application you advertise under the new procedures for ad advertising departures from the development plan?
bearing in mind that this is i suppose now going to be one of the performance indicators er that local authorities have got to er publish every year.
er so in other words it it muddies the water and it seems to me that it's quite unnoted because it be suggesting a policy which is to counteract the effect of erm section fifty four a.
in other words trying to restore the status quo er the status er that that that existed before section fifty four a er and and restoring flexibility that was perceived to exist then.
now it does occur to me to wonder and i, again a personal view, to wonder whether intended that section fifty four a should be counteracted by the terms of the policies that followed it.
do you want to answer that one mr saunders?
i think the number of er er ex i think the fact that this is merely an exception a major exceptions policy that deals only with exceptional cases and the the humberside structure plan refers to possibly once or twice over a planned period erm might er indicate it's not intended to open to subvert section fifty four a.
as for er as for departures, a strategic context in terms of a structure plan policy erm that allows for major exceptions will must surely assist in in considering any application that comes forward as a as a departure under under .
chairman.
david allenby harrogate 
sorry mr allenby i mr earle was shaking his head there.
sorry.
er is that in puzzlement or disagreement?
bit of both really chairman.
er patrick earle richmondshire.
with with the greatest of respect the the point wasn't really answered.
er perhaps it is impossible to answer it in this forum but i think it remains an open question sir.
chairman i was er endeavouring to answer it actually erm
my view is that erm 
illuminate your colleagues underestimate go on.
my my view is that er those proposals would still stand to be considered as departures to to the structure plan.
er what the policy does is to set out quite clearly, i'm really looking at the the humberside structure plan policy as an example, as to how the material considerations would come into play in erm offsetting if you like the the pol the other policies of the structure plan.
and far far from muddying the waters i think it makes clear that there are certain considerations that are acknowledged er which would allow certain proposals to come forward.
rather than rather than having a sort of under the counter scenario where er material considerations you know will be considered when it when it's a separate planning application comes in there are there an ack there is an acknowledgement or a framework which is in a formal local plan which which identifies what the main considerations will be.
thank you.
professor lock do you want to pick up the points that have been made so we can move on ?
sir i i'm just not sure how you how you want to play this because you may feel i beginning to feel we're probably getting to the end of this circuit here .
i thought i thought we'd given it a really good airing this 
yeah.
afternoon and i was going to ask you to sort of sum up with your views as the sort of 
i'm very willing to do 
progenitor of this er
if you're feeling the moment 
particular animal and then ask mr williamson to or mr potter to conclude for the county.
thank you i'm very happy to do that.
david lock.
the erm the discussion has been a great illumination.
the erm what we've not erm what has not been er challenged is the argument that it is a good thing for north yorkshire and for the region and for the united kingdom and possibly for the european union, that footloose inward investment, sorry footloose investment, of erm strategic importance should erm be capable of being attracted to this county.
nobody seems to have challenged that building brick.
so it's a it's a good thing to be able to attract inward investment of that quality and significance.
there is a dispute erm between my report sir or what north yorkshire county council actually does and what the planning erm representatives here say they do.
and er you've been given a document by the county and you'll take your own view on that.
erm all i can say is the county council economic development people are are there on the ground with their helicopters and the cameras when kimberley clarke comes in or the central science laboratory and the car people and so on of the moment.
erm in planning terms i five, that's where all these last two days string together, i five does not enable this kind of inward investment to come.
there are, finding fifty hectares or thereabouts for a development of this kind and characteristic out of the districts' allocations on the one hand in their geography, you know that has to be broadly speaking within the existing settlement pattern on the other, not possible.
so i five doesn't help us.
e two if it was carried forward sir after this morning's discussion also doesn't help us because, as the county made clear this morning and made very clear just a minute ago, it would use such a policy, it sees its position as being to block erm the er inward investment planning terms to block it as er erm being out of tune with the county's general conservation and environmental policies.
so we really do have a problem here.
we've got the local authorities at both strategic and local scale quite keen to welcome inward investment.
we've got a an emerging altered structure plan here which as it stands doesn't help.
and so the issue the discussion has focused on, from where i'm sitting, seems to have focused on is, you know can one afford to let loose a strategic policy and could such a policy be written in a way that it would work for inward investment attraction without being a a trojan horse as you know letting in a lot of other nasty things.
now the erm major contribution has been from the department of environment who have pointed us at humberside's formulation.
not only is that generally helpful in being a recently approved structure plan that's been through the secretary of state's hands, but of course it is also part of this region.
and it is the yorkshire and humberside development association that is the one that in this locality, the county, takes the lead in attracting inward investment.
prima facie it seems to me that if erm humberside erm finds a need for such a policy erm then the remainder of the yorkshire and humberside development association area erm should also have such a policy.
so that that association can actually employ erm the yorkshire and humberside area in an intelligent way and not in a divided way.
i referred sir at the beginning to er the limited experience i've had in nottinghamshire where erm a criteria based policy was put into a structure plan erm for er in that case for a prestige business development i think is what they call it, prestige business park, that was a criteria based policy as a way of containing, stopping this strategic issue becoming a trojan horse for lots of other things.
and i pointed you sir to the fact that in that county at least they found that to further contain it it helped to name districts.
what i hadn't expected was the reaction we got here today which is that erm whilst there are smiling dis , he's smiling now, there are smiling districts who might be pleased to be named as areas in which a major exception might be accommodated and i hadn't expected the others would like a bit of it if there was one going too.
so this all suggests to me that the establishment of fierce criteria could make this a very rare exception is the key and erm i think we've had it in the course of the discussion, it'll now be on the record, erm an exploration of the kind of criteria those could be.
and erm you've got that harrogate goes into it in some detail.
but erm my closing remarks we be these sir that the the actual reality is that north yorkshire and some of its districts want and deserve inward investment.
the present planning policy framework frustrates that objective and an enabling policy framework is now required.
a legitimate moment to to put it in place.
everything we've heard today this afternoon shows the disinclination of the county planning department to be flexible and enabling on this matter.
it is just not their inclination.
and so it seems to me that erm we must look to you sir and miss whittaker to say what you feel as er independent erm hearkeners to the debate er we it's time as i would say for erm north yorkshire now to face up to what's going on in its own territory and remove the planning obstacles to what is actually happening and just to make sure that it's safely tied up with criteria to make sure it doesn't erm erm unhappy consequences instead of the happy consequences that we are trying to achieve.
thank you.
thank you.
mr williamson or mr potter the penultimate word.
thank you.
turn to mr potter i think he's been dying to get back on this so
i wouldn't quite say that.
this is the precursor to the summing up.
erm david potter north yorkshire county council.
er the position of the county council is that we remain unconvinced of a need for such a policy.
er the county council acknowledges that inward investment is important but because of the nature of the local economy and competition elsewhere, i think we realistically look at it in terms of er it going to provide a small contribution to the local economy.
and that's acknowledged by the economic development officer.
and i would add that the economic development officer also acknowledges that he must work within the strategic framework which is the policy of the county council.
and the county council feels that it has adequately addressed the needs of the districts within the county, erm obviously that's up to the panel to determine whether you agree with that, and we believe that the strategic framework is capable of addressing any changing needs or circumstances without recourse to a policy which we feel would reduce the clarity of the structure plan.
that it?
that's it.
thank you very much.
well i can draw the e i p to a close, sorry?
why?
do we?
mr mr donson, yes, oh that's right, we posed a question to you on the elephant analogy.
what is the equivalent on affordable housing?
i thinking about it over erm er coffee sir, i i i think the answer is an adder erm because its smaller than an elephant, it's indigenous to the united kingdom, it blends into the landscape, but if you ignore it it could be just as injurious to your health.
excellent.
.
well with that i think i can draw the e i p to a close .
can i say it it's er we've had a a good day from my point of view anyway.
erm some days have been better than others but i i i have in retrospect enjoyed it,heartbroke though it is.
er and from our point of view er erm the panel, erm this is only the end of the beginning for us because we've got a lot of other work to do.
er but certainly we are grateful for your participation erm some very good contributions.
i'm also particularly grateful for, and i said yesterday, to our two friends in the right hand corner here who've er done some sterling work.
i'm grateful to north yorkshire and through you to the strensall people for the arrangements and the use of the village hall and i think i must commend mr whipp for his fortitude through the last week or so.
because even if he wasn't participating he was sitting listening.
thank you very much.
chairman before before you do finally er pack your bag and zoom off back to wherever it is you're going, could i on behalf of the county council and all of our participants here today and those who've been around in the last fortnight thank you and miss whittaker and your assistant able assistants er mrs binns and dave in the programme office for the sterling work they've done.
and for making the e i p erm an interesting and er fortnight and i think er commending on the way that you er and your colleagues have handled it er all the way through and er we hope that er at the end of the day we'll get something back from you fairly quickly which er we'll act upon.
i won't promise
thank you very much chairman.
i shan't promise before christmas..
hiya.
hello.
oh oh here comes the monster.
here comes the monster.
well miss come and have your head cut off.
erm
she's got asthma.
right.
mhm.
erm
and she's got a blocked nose as well.
haven't you?
aye.
she's a cold it's, it's a viral 
it brings it on .
aye.
but erm that, the inhaler that i've got, does nothing for 
no?
her at all.
she's had her erm she's had her adenoids out and all 
yeah.
that.
let's have a look in your brains.
for weeks.
nothing.
absolutely 
ears 
that's a no.
your brains
ears.
i was thinking 
and your nose.
getting 
ears.
her vaccinated 
and your nose.
let's have a look in your nose.
see what's going on in here.
yeah.
has your mum looked in here?
yes.
thank you.
it's horrible.
yes it is.
did you see that great big black thing coming out?
that's probably a bit of her brains coming through.
aargh.
i w wouldn't worry about it if i was you.
now i was 
told that i was trying to get an appointment at the asthma clinic but they couldn't get one for fortn another full week.
right?
mhm.
yeah.
so 
she's, she's,sh she's got sinus
sinuses.
but this cough
aha.
comes on and it's
i'll show you.
as soon as she lies down at night, this stuff runs from the sinus and 
aha.
right down into her tubes.
blocks .
all blocked gets them all blocked up
aha.
and starts her cough.
well er see she'll b she'll be left with this now this cough 
mm.
for a long long time?
no she won't.
sh er it's like a routine with her.
we'll get that dried up for you.
you think so?
mhm.
i would like
oh.
we will.
to be referred to
erm 
doctor 
.
but i saw a doctor there, a doctor ,
mhm.
he was excellent before christmas.
she had a whoop whooping cough.
mhm.
and he did say to me he would like to have seen her again at and monitor this, this 
mhm.
er cough that she's got.
now i thought i would quite like to
aha.
get her referred there again.
cos 
yes.
she was there a couple of years ago, two or three years ago.
but i was pus pushing and p pulling of course i never saw the same doctor twice.
but now i feels as if i've got a sh a name of a doctor
aha.
er out there.
we'll soon get that 
if you don't mind.
mm.
and you wouldn't like your head cut off?
no.
you're pretty miserable you know.
i think you should.
no.
at least your mum would get peace and quiet.
her tongue.
her tongue 
her tongue 
would do.
no.
much better.
much better 
no.
thing.
a great big needle about that length, and what i'd do is i'd freeze the back of her tongue
no.
and then tie it up for about three weeks.
oh.
ooh.
that's sounds 
hey that would be brilliant.
your mum thinks that would be great.
no.
i think so too.
i think that would be wonderful.
no.
it's just i want
least sensible 
she can get done as well.
both.
both.
ooh.
your mum should be so lucky.
aye.
you're right.
shouldn't she?
you're right.
they and they're and they're guzzling they're fighting with each other and oh.
right.
i'm not the only one they've all got this cold haven't they?
it's .
will you give this to your wee sister as well for me?
oh.
come on.
get down.
yeah.
get your jacket on.
what age is your wee sister now?
sure?
yeah .
are you sure you're not kidding me on?
i i promise.
er could you give me a prescription for calpol?
mhm.
er put your jacket on .
thanks.
oh.
could you tear this?
shall i show you the big needle?
for freezing 
yeah.
your tongue?
this here.
great big long one.
oh.
here we are.
here it is.
right on the, there, and then you can't speak.
no.
no .
today?
no.
we, well you could send 
direct to the house.
well we'd send 
yeah.
alright.
.
okay?
okay.
thank you.
bye.
goodbye mrs .
bye.
that will be val.
er i think they have changed contractors.
again?
again.
but anyway whether that's true or not the this was a s s seems to be as a result of
criticism about them not turning up and this sort of thing.
erm
hi.
sorry i'm late 
so i had a long chat with the, with the cleansing officer and the main point
i know, i know.
liz, do you want a chair?
the main point that i made to him was that after such a superb beginning where, where they actually state how much rubbish we produce, there's absolutely no mention even though there's space at the bottom there's no mention of recycling at all.
and he said well it's a different, you know different department.
mm.
i know yes 
and this was, this, that, that wouldn't have entered into that brief but my argument was that, you know everybody would be much happier if there was less rubbish to put in the landfill sites in the first place.
now that was about two weeks ago and i've been sitting on it meaning to, to write to the press and say how disgusting it was.
which i have just done today.
aft , no
yes, half way through i spoke to to the environ environment officer
mm
who was much more switched on.
he's a new environment officer, he's only been there for a month or something.
and he says that erm.
he sort of agreed with me that it was a waste of an opportunity.
erm but he did say that he's actually writing a leaflet which they can run to seven or eight pages.
a detailed one about recycling.
anybody will read so eight pages.
well i don't know.
i just don't know.
but i mean he was very interested and when i said that we'd actually done a recycling directory and that i was thinking 
redoing it.
erm.
he was very interested and he would like to meet us and i said that if he's actually doing a directory 
all this all this about.
i thought rob is doing a sort of recycling what do you call it composium 
rob has just done a green audit for the district council.
yes.
yes.
but we haven't had the opportunity to read it.
i mean he knows that we have a recycling d .
i was in touch with them.
i sent them the recycling.
why do they pretend not to know?
i mean they should be fully a aware of of of our 
val well this is a new guy.
is that mr ?
mr?
.
the recycling officer.
is that, is the one, i wrote to 
hold on .
there.
?
yeah .
is that the one you spoke to?
tom .
yeah.
that's him .
only he said that they were gonna get an initiative through the schools on er 
is is 
he's the one
anyway that's that's my letter.
draft letter which i have not got, it's very very rough, for the press.
sorry i've only got four.
that's alright.
actually some friends of mine were quite confused about what, why they shouldn't be able to throw their cooking oil away in their bin.
because they said they'd always done it and they had nowhere else to put it.
somebody else said oh you should throw it down the sink but i didn't think you were supposed to do that either.
what?
cooking oil.
cooking oil?
yeah.
if you have got one of those deep fat fryers you, you have quite a bit to throw away.
well don't put it in water.
no, i don't.
i don't.
you put it in the bin.
no, they, they've said in there you mustn't.
where?
no not cooking oil.
er pet , car oil .
car oil.
that's a totally different story.
i'm sure 
but i mean the bottom bit obviously we've got to talk about whether we actually do want 
bifocals today new.
.
but this guy seems to be well worth nurturing.
yes.
here you are.
it says here oh that's waste oil cooking fat and other liquids.
i know it says fat collection but i
well that only should only be because erm the bin's going to be soiled.
in in in in the end terribly smelly that's the reason.
i mean why there shouldn't be cooking oil in in in landfill.
i mean 
dad 
dad's not in 
mm
i can only think that i mean it sticks to the sides of the bin at the bottom 
well if it's if it was very hot could it could it melt the plastic?
it could even melt the plastic yes.
or could it ignite?
yeah.
no i i definitely foodstuffs out of the water.
i mean into the bin first and then wash the dishes.
to keep the water clean.
mm.
stuff you put in water.
yeah.
sorry?
was it printed on new paper?
it doesn't say does it?
well it doesn't say, no 
i think, i think they put recycled if it was don't you?
well exactly that's
you seen that story, what is it, one paper er if you get the letter of the week you can take part in the draw and get a flight to from stanstead to dusseldorf.
wh what paper's this then?
i i got it last night .
there was the most horrible letter in england or britain joining the common market .
i'll get you one of those bags.
no oh you did tell me about it 
yeah i did tell you.
do you, well do you then know why doesn't, isn't rob in touch with them any more?
oh yeah, very much so.
i spoke to trish, rob's away at the moment
yeah.
but i spoke to trish tonight.
and erm 
but i mean he's also in the sub committee isn't he?
there was this working committee wasn't it and then the sub committee to the working committee on environmental matters.
no, yeah but i mean that leaflet very likely wouldn't have you know i mean i think this this leaflet
no no but but that this mr 
mr , yeah but i mean 
didn't know 
okay he should, he should have tapped us as a resource certainly.
yeah.
but i mean you know i i'm certainly gonna follow this up.
mm.
and i think we ought to get him over to one of our meetings.
and and he said he would.
and i think if we could make it get one of the uttlesford chaps to the same meeting 
marvellous thing they did.
yeah.
well what he did say was don't you know don't go over the top in criticizing that because
yeah.
you know he he says that there's a lot of things which are happening.
he's got all sorts of schemes a lot of schemes in the pipeline.
i suppose he doesn't want to be seen to be just reacting to your letter he's obviously started doing these things off his own bat anyway hasn't he?
oh yes.
yeah.
i mean and and he he feels that er pressure groups like ourselves are very positive because it gives him a bit of weight when he's arguing for things.
yeah 
well they can't push it from the top 
but i mean on a sort of wider thing erm 
yeah.
you know one of the things that we could do is to do another directory.
yeah.
i think because i think i think 
but 
it's a real shame we're so out of date.
mhm but i i you know we we're can we actually do it?
i mean we would need fifty people
no i would not distribute it 
to deliver 
er from door to door.
i would erm put it out in the library, put it out in in surgeries.
put it out in public places and that's it because i mean the number of people erm they went to these directories like hot cross buns.
i mean every week i supplied them with a new stack of everybody wanted them.
what, the recycling directory?
yeah 
they come through the doorstep, through the doors though.
through the door they they just throw them away.
they didn't read them.
i said well don't you live in stortford, didn't you have it delivered?
no.
and i'm sure they'll pick them up if they see them in the 
if they printed 
print them up and they do it on their own will.
couldn't we do it with him?
with him?
well yeah pro 
i mean they could couldn't they sponsor us to do it or something?
well yeah i i've i've whether he well i mean if, if he's gonna do this seven page thing then i you know i you can look at it two ways.
either we can influence and help that to be to be good or or you know if that's a failure then see whether they can help us to produce one for the town.
mm.
i mean i'd much rather they do it if we can influence him enough.
they've got the right information.
well the thing if we did it with our as they keep saying there's some, there's so much in the pipeline.
i mean it might take us another two week two months before we get it out.
three months.
well 
i would say six months.
yeah 
no i would just think of something really straightforward.
they do want stuff on local levels i mean if he's east herts he's got a huge area, hasn't he?
yeah.
it it might be a help to him to have little local groups that helped him out with these things.
but i mean if we print something and then suddenly they instal all these new bottle banks which we didn't know about.
then they are not mentioned 
well 
in our recycling directory and we can do the next one
he should know about them shouldn't he?
well we must that's why, certainly have to, before 
could you drag him along to a meeting?
yeah well that's what they said we could do that.
i'll write that down.
erm, is that okay for that i just have something that i read in new scientist does everybody take it?
no
oh well i'll give you one to look at it's just a little article about
thank you.
recycling in in egypt.
and i just liked reading it so much that i thought you'd like to read it too.
don't have to read it now cos it's quite long.
it's it's it's really hot .
cos they they reuse absolutely everything.
and they make they're living out of it.
in east german they are now drowning in rubbish because they used to have a perfect recycling scheme everything was collected and recycled cos they just didn't have the materials.
now they are flooded with the west european goods their recycling isn't worth any more.
on the other hand they haven't got the landfills and the whole scheme that the west has developed and they i mean it's a health hazard meanwhile.
one of the major problems they have to face.
far east lots of guys sort of collecting cardboard boxes and that's all they did they flatten down cardboard boxes and then another one did newspapers and whole newspapers and
the whole town is composed of a
yeah.
it's like a big .
i just thought it was interesting.
erm i did write er as was suggested asking about erm facilities for cyclists in the potential shopping centre development in bishop's stortford.
and they are, they are interested in cyclists but from what i could make out reading this they're not really going to help us a great deal.
if you want to pass it round and read it.
it's it's they're gonna use the green wedges that are already there and the existing footpaths which are already cycled along.
what, what good is that to me?
it's just in stortford it's not that easy for a cyclist is it?
no 
and they've got all the places say don't lean your bicycle here and you're not allowed to take it into jackson 
one girl nearly got knocked off going up newtown road.
it's really quite narrow as you're going up there.
what about the all the cars all parked round corners everywhere like up at havers.
mm.
they could do something about that.
have you every cycled up there?
not round havers,wh they park where those, those sort of shops are they they park all around the corners so that you have to go out round them.
and of course you meet something coming the other way wrong side of the road.
oh yeah.
what annoys me is that everybody parks on the pavement as well.
mm.
seem to disobey all laws there are about parking.
it does, it doesn't really help us does it?
do you wanna pass these around as well if anyone wants to look.
all the replies got eleven or so replies that i've had for that questionnaire.
there are a few people willing to help aren't.
but i haven't gone really as i hoped cos i'd envisaged having the membership list with sort of names of who'll make cakes, who'll help on the stall and then know who to phone
yeah.
when i wanted some help or who to invite to meetings but because i haven't got a reply from everyone or most people, it can't work does it?
is that all the replies you got?
sent more than fifty out.
i did sixty and caroline copied even more .
she's a good girl.
did georgina reply?
erm did actually, yes.
yeah, cos when i phoned she said she's still quite interested.
mm.
yeah i thought she was 
but she said if the baby .
and i've got a local group summer questionnaire which i couldn't really fill in.
. isn't it awful!
i thought i'm just as bad as you know everybody else really.
cos i wasn't sure of some of the answers.
and that it it's saying which of the following days of action has the group participated in.
i mean cos we haven't really sort of really done a proper day of action have we?
we've done little bits and pieces.
i know we did the returnable bottles.
.
i mean cos and we did that stall on peat but we didn't really take part in the peat day of action did we?
.what do you think?
fiona and i did the electricity 
what at the supermarket .
is that the global warming and electricity privatization?
that one?
was it?
it was erm efficiency of 
oh fuel and efficiency.
right that one then.
oh we didn't, we didn't do the ozone layer one did we?
did you do a stall on that ozone layer?
we did do something.
with the
oh we did, yes.
with the, with er snow remember?
that was christmas last year wasn't it?
oh yes that was 
that was ozone.
yes it was we did 
oh so i'll put down for that then.
oh it looks quite good .
right.
have you written to your mp about fuel efficiency?
yes i did.
we did.
i know erm i thought i wrote to the electricity board in, i wrote to somebody about erm how er things should be labelled about how efficient they are when using electricity.
you took part in the er electricity efficiency didn't you?
yes.
yeah but didn't, we didn't write to our mps though.
i thought we were 
supposed to write to somewhere else was it the department of the environment or now what would it be, energy?
we wrote, wrote to them cos i've got a reply to that letter somewhere with a great wad of information 
about various fridges and
yeah, yeah
and things.
yeah 
so i can't really say we've written to the mp can we?
we haven't found out about company car fleets have we?
we tried.
well i tried and then i was let down by the group.
i don't remember anything about that one 
we arranged it two days or three days and each was cancelled 
march ninety one?
. in march this year?
it was this year.
last year.
last year.
i didn't think we'd done anything about that this year.
but that was last year.
yeah.
but we haven't done a march ninety one then.
scanned the local press for power station applications or authorizations h m i p.
written to michael heseltine about acid rain?
may ninety one.
written to your mp to ask him her to press for strict e c standards for c o two emissions from vehicles may ninety one.
when was that?
wasn't that on the talk?
do you remember this talk we had that was last year.
er
writing a letter to chris patten about the protocol.
yeah.
so that was, that was early this year.
yeah written something.
that to do with the ozone layer.
i don't know.
it it's mostly sort of things about energy.
isn't it?
questionnaire.
that's definitely to do with the c f c's 
yeah well this is c o two in in cars, private cars.
yeah things to do with er emissions and 
written that?
in may ninety one?
yeah sounds about right.
ask local car dealer to write to car manufacturers to press for the introduction of more fuel efficient cars?
may ninety one.
no.
lobbied your local authority on peat use?
not really did we?
erm joined the newsprint campaign?no.
written up details of recycling campaigning experience for and sent it to .
no.
why me?
. complained to your mp about the national road traffic forecast.
no.
looked out for threats to s s i's.
have we got them?
s s i's.
sites of special scientific interest.
have we got any in ?
mm.
no.
no i didn't think we had.
no, i don't think so.
sorry?
do you own your 
no!
do you?
we we have acquired a large chunk of the the yes.
so you should, you should nominate that as a 
site of the interest shouldn't you?
erm it's valuable but not that valuable.
but it says here, written written to linda chalker about the i t p o.
now i, i rang, i sent a postcard which was ready written.
do you think that counts?
promoted the .
well we did try.
yeah, put that we did do that.
didn't get very far though did we?
actually that seems to have fizzled out.
haven't heard anything about that for a while.
erm written to the government in u k bank about the bank propose new foreign policy.
i think we might have done that.
i think we might have done that.
i know that i've written to british gas.
and i think i wrote world bank.
that was, thing is that was quite a long time ago.
i'm sure it wasn't this year.
this is february ninety one.
it's alright but you get to the bottom of those stairs and sometimes .
er check locally for claims of environmentally or sustainable tropical hardwood it's not really, i mean i do look when i go to all these d i y places to see what they've got.
haven't really 
local wood guides ?
well rob's got two 
cos i'm just deciding on a new window frame.
and all the firms are claiming that they only get their hardwood from government erm replanting programmes.
and one got a stamp and a seal on that.
but whether that is acknowledged by our friends of the earth i don't know because i mean they have so many stamps and seals on 
they won't give you names now will they?
the friends of the earth .
they won't give you names of companies any more.
no but if this stamp, this acknowledgement.
oh it's like a little is it?
good government scheme or not.
whether that is known by friends of the earth as a good scheme or not.
i think there's a day of action coming up on this sort of d i y stuff.
so maybe we'll get some more information about that.
i'm gonna try and get the book back from rob.
martin's an architect and and it actually probably would be you know it might be a good thing to actually sort of provoke a question with architects because they do specify these things and they're the ones who actually say you know right we'll specify hardwood .
it's one of the decisions that are actually made by them in terms of what they use so erm that could be something that is 
yeah
round to architects just sort of provoking the question cos they, a lot of them have never thought about it
mm.
and er you know if they did erm i mean martin asked about the, he asked about the good wood guide you know and i told them where they can get it but that they can have it in their office and put it in their library.
you know so that, that's quite a good idea.
yeah 
but that's so quickly out of date again you see the good wood cos i mean they they have new government schemes, schemes every year don't they?
mm.
and new other schemes.
and
what, at least it will enable you to know what the tropical species are because some of them have got quite weird and wonderful names and most people don't know what some of them are.
mm.
i know mahogany is citello .
i noticed they had some philippine mahogany doors in do it all
mm.
on saturday and yet, that you have to be careful because they they have that i've forgotten what her name was on on wogan saying next time you go into a d i y store and you see a mahogany toilet seat you know don't boy buy it think of the forest.
well if you go into a d i y store you'll find it's a mahogany stain i don't know if they really make mahogany .
it would be very expensive 
yes you'd probably gauge by the price i would think.
yeah.
plastic
plastic.
plastic one.
erm oh 
yes actually this cycle thing .
cycle parking is actually i wish they'd actually pay a bit more places to actually put your bike and you didn't have to sort of tie it up to some lamppost or something
yeah, yeah.
there's hardly anything 
i mean they could give you a decent stand to put it in cos i hate those ones at sainsbury's.
cos if you've got anything heavy in the bag, the bike falls over.
the ones at the library as well.
er and they ought to have a little shelter over it to stop your saddle getting wet if it rains .
i've got, i mean i've got my spots where i park it, i, it at woolworth's and outside the post office because it keeps it dry.
and out of the way.
all the roads into town are just awful.
i mean the dunmow road, hockerill 
oh yeah.
you know really scary.
you know you get asphyxiated with petrol fumes and then you get the danger of being thrown off your bike.
cycling 
yeah they squeeze you off the road if you go up that hill to hockerill lights.
i 
you must to cat.
just walk slowly in the middle of the road.
so that there's no way they can take overtake on the right or on the left.
that's the only way.
our cat, and i've really watched her makes a point of going and walking slowly in the road.
and i think that is exactly what we have to do as cyclists.
not squeeze to the side because they might not see you there.
right 
well you sh you're supposed to ride a fair way out from the gutter, never in the gutter so they can see you round the bends.
yeah but 
and they often hoot you if you're doing it but that's the place 
that is their fault if they hoot.
erm especially going up that hill at hockerill lights.
they overtake you and then they slow right down so that you have to go oohooh and stop.
you can't cycle that slowly up a hill can you?
they come in too quickly on, once they've passed you 
they don't they're in like that aren't they straight in front of you.
frightens me .
cycle underneath a car today .
oh dear.
michael 's got helmet.
that's a good idea.
yes idiot wearing it though.
if everybody looks like him!
oh well.
i mean it looks alright if you've got all the gear on you know cycling shorts and top and everything
make them like swimming hats with lots of little flowers all over them 
yeah.
but if you do get one you have to be careful you get one that's done to the proper standard because some don't work apparently.
absolutely nothing.
well that's what i thought it just seemed to say they were gonna have sort of cycle ways going through the green wedges along where i cycle already.
mm.
and that's no help at all is it.
we can't complain.
that should do quite well in trying to get the traffic away from the centre in stortford anyway.
mm.
they were talking pedestrianizing 
i think that's been on, on the cards for a long time hasn't it?
yeah.
pedestrianizing and they've never done it.
sorry!
erm wh have we done anything about the environmental charter?
because i started doing it a long time ago 
yeah, yeah bob did that didn't he?
it vaguely yeah and we presented it and then it fizzled.
the group fizzled out because we presented the charter.
and that was the aim of 
it asks here have they adopted it?
erm
wouldn't or we aim to still try.
well .
i i think, i've a funny feeling that did adopt it but quite how much that means i don't understand.
well it's awful, having to do this questionnaire we, we've done .
all these workshops that have been going on that we haven't been to.
well they just kind of recognized the principles don't they but they don't ensure that they'll actually put them into practise.
that's what adopting means it's not actually committing .
yes i thought they had, yes.
how about these questions.
does the group have a constitution?
no.
does the group have an office?
no.
we've got our plastic box!
plastic?
i know i know everybody will be disappointed but i couldn't get cardboard ones, stick it all in.
we bought the storage boxes anyway to keep all the .
no but you can't really i mean that's what supposed to have it like an actual proper office.
you can't have all in cardboard boxes.
it's erm not easy to organize.
you can't and keep them open at the same time.
what is the most common problem you've experienced in your dealings with street?
it's phoning them up and the person i want to talk to isn't there!
i think.
have you had any, anybody else phone them up or written to them?
no?
no.
i think they're quite abrupt and rude whenever i've phoned them up.
are they?
they're not terribly friendly.
oh they're usually okay i, i mean what they don't know .
i mean i just find it annoying cos you get through to somebody who then passes you on to somebody else and then they'll talk to you and say well the person you want to talk to isn't here at the moment so you've had all this phone call and then you've got to ring again.
and you have to do it in office hours as well.
what has been your proudest moment this year?
oh that was rob.
when he was able er to enter the sub committee.
oh yes.
he was really proud of that and he, he made a point of that being
i'll write that down.
for him years of struggle to get any influence to finally find himself 
oh good one.
what sort of committee is it then?
hearing aid!
well i think one does speak a bit louder in public meetings, it's just .
and i i can only do this work i'm sorry.
sorry i didn't hear 
oh i i didn't hear either.
turn that thing off.
i was asking what sub committee it was.
er the environmental.
they had a working committee didn't they and a sub 
it's east herts isn't it?
i think.
was it east herts?
east herts, yeah.
yeah east herts.
environmental sub committee?
yeah.
he sits on it.
well he had this environment mental officer, they they in inaugurated him then at this meeting meeting when erm the thing you handed over 
charter.
the environment charter.
why's it a sub committee?
what happened to the proper committee as well.
yeah.
reports then back to the proper actual coun the er 
the work's committee 
district council meeting.
well i know at district council there was two environmental groups, was it the officers group and the members group.
oh.
i wonder which group
herts county council.
cos when i was on the hertfordshire environmental of the group which has folded
i've got all this money in the abbey national and there's no, no group any more, i think i'll have to keep 
keep quiet.
i'll have to send it off to .
but anyway it transpired that there were two groups sort of working towards the same end and nobody could work out what sort of erm role each played and it was terrible.
because you knew that they both had to agree before anything was done.
oh.
i suppose that was one way of nothing being done.
yes, they didn't communicate.
the officers group and the members group that was right.
right.
anyway.
onwards.
erm there's going to be a sort of event at the rhodes centre.
erm for one world week on the twenty fourth of october and we've been asked to do a stall there.
which i said yes to without asking anybody so i hope that's alright.
what date is it?
october the twenty fourth.
that's a thursday.
we're doing a traidcraft stall?
oh yes 
you what?
well he wanted to know who the traidcraft person 
oh really.
and he said, he said he tried to phone you up and i said oh don't worry.
cos any you always get the answerphone.
could leave a message .
is it?
it's at the rhodes centre thursday october the twenty fourth.
well if we do a stall i would really like to have at least a leaflet on new recycling.
yeah okay.
so that we have, i mean nothing of design or anything just short information because i think it's so 
right.
out of date.
yeah.
i know, and he said you could sell things as well now.
i don't know what you think, i just wondered did we ought to order anything from friends of the earth catalogue like those sort of things to sell.
cos that, i mean they're always going to be useful i use them myself and i expect you all 
mm.
the question is the quantity
er yeah
i've no idea.
well i mean i i know what barbara feels about this.
she feels that erm at the, the level that we are working at it is really coun be counter productive to hold stock.
because however hard you try stock deteriorates.
yeah.
erm but i you know i feel that that very often we don't sell stock 
well couldn't we just have a few things 
and i feel that if we did have stock then then we would erm sell it.
so i mean that that's two ways of looking at it.
certainly if we've got some stuff in a box 
well i mean we needn't buy the expensive things like sweatshirts 
shall i try at erm cambridge?
i mean it's october.
yeah but they, will they, they won't sell you on at a discount will they?
cos if we all 
but i mean i i just know that that harlow tried stock keeping and selling, they gave up.
i know that er in hertford they were quite desperate.
all came up with the same idea and they wanted to do it.
and in the end they came to barbara's conclusions so that its a an expensive thing.
but i mean if we only had like the writing paper and the envelopes and re-use labels, small items of stationery 
the stickers and i mean 
they still do yeah.
but i mean i i expect, i mean even we had some left over e eventually you could sell them to our own members because they'd all want to use it
mm.
and it's cheaper than ordering it off the catalogue.
that's a good idea about cambridge isn't it?
you could borrow there stock, is that what you're thinking and then take back what we didn't sell.
that's what 
i mean i've never talked to them so i i don't know yet 
well if they would let us borrow it, that's a different matter to buying it from then because we then wouldn't make any money on it.
well i don't, i have never heard of a local group that makes money out of this selling.
well you you buy it all at thirty three or twenty five percent discount so you can then sell it at a bit more.
but then you have then you have the stuff that doesn't sell and deteriorates and you still have to have paid for it so
i think it's possible to make a bit of money but at at at the rate you know i feel we're all the time putting the cart before the horse.
erm you know if if we are going to try to keep going as a viable group then yes one of the things we should consider i mean i i don't i've come here sort of thinking oh is this it, is this the crisis meeting or
is it you know erm i mean i feel so so passionately that that we should keep going but
mm.
i also feel just that i am able to contribute next to nothing in terms of time so and i think w we're almost all in that situation.
erm you know we sort of seem to limp from one meeting to another without really committing ourselves to anything much.
and you know if we were able to commit ourselves to two public, two meetings, three meetings of some sort in a year where we're actually gonna do something and present some sort of front par part of presenting some sort of front is to try to sell a few bits of pieces if we're prepared to accept that we're going to lose money.
yeah.
i mean if we, we're preaching you should use recycled products we, if we had a few to sell at least 
mm.
yeah.
i mean you you're be selling your traidcraft stuff i mean 
which 
why why does barbara believe it's okay to sell that but not 
no, well we're, we're in exactly the same problem with traidcraft.
you know we we used to sell thousand of pounds worth a year and now we're down to couple of thousand a year and we're s , we are losing money on that.
mhm.
no we're not actually losing money but i mean with traidcraft we are getting to the low point where we put borrowed stock 
well that's the recession isn't it?
or 
well, what i thought was with this one world week thing at least people that, who go might be more receptive to what we have to say to show and sell .
yes we've done really well with with traidcraft 
because that is, that's the whole reason for the the the concert and they're gonna have this concert in there as well and people will be buying tickets to go to.
yeah.
and i don't know an awful lot about it and there's going to be all these stalls.
where they're coming obviously because they believe in that sort of thing so
two or three years ago one world week was a full week of all sorts of different activities which were all very well attended.
it's sort of dwindled very rapidly
has it.
down to, i d i don't even know what happened last year.
mm 
we just had a stall didn't we?
but it 
or was that last year what seven or eight of us wasn't it?
at st michael's?
the church.
yeah.
that was last year or was that two years ago?
er 
there was something at st michael's but i didn't know it was the one world week.
yeah i have never been involved in a one world week event at st michael's.
i thought there was one there .
you certainly were there.
in the church 
no i don't i don't think 
yeah.
anyway i mean hopefully this this will be sort of you know if it's well publicized it it will be well attended because of the past.
i think we might as well get in a few things and anyway i want some envelope re-use labels .
i've run out completely.
there you are so many packets already.
well if you don't want traidcraft's re-use labels i don't care!
oh!
i didn't know you did them!
well erm
doesn't matter does it 
well apart from this leaflet on recycling facilities, what else shall we have?
on the stall.
well who's gonna do the leaflet?
i will.
i think we ought to sort that out 
well that will be, i personally think that's the only thing we can do.
and we should just sort of say what is necessary to find out and everybody gets a few telephone numbers or telephone calls check out addresses find out about new ones, get in contact with the district council erm what is in the pipeline.
find out about uttlesford possibly why there's is running and whether that is going to br breakdown.
erm and if we then find money for printing it i would approach barclays bank, banks, local banks and would it do it very modestly the same local the same style er and only hand it out to places where people are likely to pick it up.
and not bother about .
i mean charity shops erm library, hairdressers, surgeries boardman as i know 
i think that's a very sensible idea actually rather than er trying to do the whole town.
because that was er you know i mean it got the group together
yeah
i thought because everybody had the same experience.
i liked the experience because i had never done it.
mm.
what a waste of time.
the number of people i've talked to that i definitely knew had got and never knew they had got it.
mm.
yeah i mean but on the other hand the there's probably quite a few that did read it.
i mean i know when we moved house i had folder and one of each had got in it the recycling directory
mm
which is quite a nice surprise!
i mean had they had they sold to someone outside bishop's stortford
yeah.
then they could 
yeah.
erm
i think we have to have something if we have a stall.
we lost all the erm cartoons original cartoons.
yeah.
oh that's a shame.
well i could photocopy that couldn't you.
yeah.
the detail 
difficult to see what it is.
but erm
oh that's a real shame.
otherwise i will just do it in a different colour, a different 
i mean then 
then then reshape the inside.
yeah.
er something before i i always forget everything.
the german friends of the earth's people told me never to do the washing on monday mornings.
i mean that's something to put there as well i think.
because it's a peak time for electricity and the electricity board er produces according to peak demands.
that's got nothing to do with recycling has it?
no.
i know but 
no.
but you do you think honestly though that that really does still hold true because if everyone ha mostly having automatics now you just wash as you go you don't have a washing day or is it specially monday they
like i've got just automatically i wanted to do washing this morning.
really?
i don't.
i just put it, when it gets too bad you know if haven't got any clothes to 
it's an interesting though.
i didn't know that they produced according to peak
yeah, i think it's important to know 
it's very important to know, yes.
erm whatever.
don't do it monday mornings.
i usually do mine at midnight when i get home!
yes.
a lot of people do it overnight
yeah.
but it's not really a good idea because if something goes wrong with your machine 
you're not there to deal with it.
i mean i've had mine flood and i've had its thermostat go and it boiled everything.
i mean that would have been a disaster i mean it's only because i was upstairs and i thought oh i can smell boiling.
you know it was like when you boil up hankies i thought what a!
. there was dye came out of everything it was awful.
and another time it was all pouring all over the floor 
the other thing i mean to be healthy it's more important to dry things and keep them dry for a while than to boil them.
bacteria survive heat for a short time.
yeah.
but they don't a for the percentage of bacteria that survives drought is is minimal.
so you don't need to boil logically.
er if you just keep your hankies iron them, keep them dry.
then they are, then they are sterile.
be bothered.
anyway, back to the point.
he said pointedly.
well leaflet.
stall.
we've got to get back to the stall.
yeah er the recycling leaflet.
who's gonna do it?
it's not gonna be done if we don't get somebody to actually front you know
well
take it on 
the thing is that i i can do revamp it on computer.
because it w you can scan 
what ma manually?
no you just stick it on a photocopier 
i see i wa before you do that i'll get in touch with the guy who drew it and if he if he has got an original copy he might be able to erm to er 
what, what you can do is you can then get basically you get the computer to type that out type that out.
ah.
and then you just do a run, you don't have to go on to print it at all you just print it off.
that's one option 
then photocopy the rest of it.
i've got a laser printer yeah so i mean that's what i use for my business.
i've got a mackintosh and a laser printer.
so i mean
i've got some recycled paper but but 
well traidcraft's got loads to sell.
not doing very well are you 
no!
because i have this erm dilemma.
whether to just photocopy off a very good original
yeah
or do we print the whole lot.
and we came to the conclusion it was cheaper to print
oh
than photocopy.
what it's a bit slow isn't it?
yeah it depends, well you can get get it to run through copies but the problem is that the cartridges for these printers they, they cost about fifty pounds.
mm 
they're not cheap.
so if i can do one run and then photocopy it.
mm.
it a is actually a lot better because you can get them usually get them down to about five p a copy.
well won't you lose, lose definition on the drawing though with a laser printer?
no.
no?
no it's even better 
oh that's alright.
okay, no it's, i'm just going by the one at school and it, because it's all made up of little dots you 
no, this is a laser printer.
this does it absolutely it's not a dot printer it's it is a laser printer .
oh, well he keeps calling it his laser printer!seen it in action we don't see that well.
so you, you said you could do it for five p a copy?
well i r , i r , i reckon i reckon you can down to that, yeah.
that's printing both sides.
yeah.
double sided printer and i i'll try and get that verified but 
i think we could sell it i think we could sell it for
yeah.
ten p or twenty p.
oh that that would be a different ball game, selling it in places wouldn't it?
oh yeah.
ho how many
that's our, i mean, you know you can go round in newsagents or doctor's surgery and dump them.
but to actually say right can you s can you collect the money for us!
well one could put a box next to it.
well in some places, yeah .
yeah but i mean, mm.
a copy's a lot.
it is, yeah.
well although 
i mean it i'm not suggesting that isn't cheap but erm to produce at five p a copy 
oh yeah.
thousand it's gonna cost what's it gonna cost?
er.
what's five thousands?
five thousands.
fifty pounds.
mm.
mm.
i mean i'm, i'm, i'm only going on the fact that i i tend to do everything on the cheap so i tend to get if i can find somebody who does photocopying i can do it then we'll do it.
for me to produce that'll cost me basically my time and my my you know i, say my laser copies' paid for by my business erm
copies.
so i mean if i, if i produced for instance si five or six masters and then people can go and do copies here and there that's actually not a bad way of doing it.
and that'll be, i've got about a ream of, well it's only about a ream paper.
just pr producing new copies as you need them rather than produce five thousand and i think we we have sort of hundreds to throw away in the end.
but i it to to er recycling.
yeah.
well i'll get in touch with this east herts guy to get all his information.
good.
mm.
but erm 
you know, we need to find out where to take 
somebody needs to collect somebody needs to be a contact for getting all the information to by a certain date.
well you can get it through me, yeah.
okay.
tesco do they actually do now?
no.
has anybody been there?
no.
well they collect aluminium cans.
oh do they?
yeah, that's what i was told.
i acted on what everyone had told me i then asked my friend who had a contact in tesco's about it she said well there is one.
it's just inside the doors, where you don't see it.
walk in like that and you're looking at all the things in the shop not where
it's not in the recycling centre.
why don't they put it in the recycling centre?
i think it's cos, it looks like it's made out of cardboard.
it's, it's probably run by the scouts.
they're in charge of it like
yeah, cos there's one at the swimming pool isn't there?
yeah.
yeah.
mm.
does anybody know anything about, there's this little note in about erm recycling paper, all sorts of paper magazines, cardboard er on the first monday of the month.
does anybody know anything about that?
is this for boots?
every first monday of the mo month is the birchanger scout 
scout 
and he gave me that information repeatedly and he's terribly involved.
it, it's fantastic.
right, yeah.
i'm always worried that his enthusiasm is stretched to the limit 
no, no i mean the number of pe .
i've just passed my a levels i've got loads of papers going what can i do.
well i said, ring birchanger scouts!
and as far as i know he always .
i mean the address is on there anyway.
yeah, oh right.
is it?
oh.
er
quite pertinent actually if we are actually going to do one.
what?
to ask people sorry in my, in the letter
yeah.
to the press, ask people to er submit any information.
yeah.
oh what you mean you're gonna put at the bottom of the of, the same letter or
well, yes.
yeah.
just write down all the information we've got now so there is can recycling at the swimming pool and at tesco privately run.
swimming pool 
erm swimming pool 
who's going to get the information who runs that?
who?
mm?
well i can do that i suppose.
well who runs what?
the swimming pool 
because i know the scouts do the tesco one and whenever they are put in these cardboard boxes they have to be sorted so somebody must sort them.
oh they're not, they're not asking sorting, oh i see.
erm so there must be somebody responsible and i think if, if we write swimming pool and people take their cans there
yes we'd have to check.
erm i should first check.
check with them, yeah quite.
so i i do, you do tesco.
i'll do the swimming pool.
i, i, i would check who actually is responsible for that 
.
but of course all paper now is 
all paper?
all paper.
what about this chap then?
it's in the library th with his number.
well, you ring him but if he, if he gets upset or, or
oh i see.
it's it's strange you can give that as an address.
any uttlesford town of some size has got a comprehensive recycling centre now that takes any paper 
do you have to sort it?
do you have to take it sorted?
no.
no.
it's just a big skip?
and it says 
at stanstead 
do they then sort it?
the car park 
no, they it's the council collects it and in uttlesford, that's why i said we should get at the same time an uttlesford councillor because i would 
yes, yeah 
like to know a, whether their new scheme is only temporary, is about to break down.
mm.
or whether they actually get the disposals cost incorporated into this skip collecting cost.
because the money they can get for this mixed paper must be a pittance.
mm.
almost hardly worth their while but 
if you look at the tonnage kept out of the landfill 
yeah.
it might work.
yeah, but i mean it it
so where's this place in stanstead then, do you know?
erm if you go in, along cambridge road there's the turning to the right isn't there the first when you come up the hill.
at the monument,th th whatsit hill.
chapel hill.
chapel hill.
chapel hill.
you go down there do you?
and it's by the library isn't it?
mm.
go down it's it's first left once you've turned right at
you know where the library is?
opposite, opposite there isn't it?
opposite the fire station?
near the white house round the back of the white house.
where the health centre is.
yes, round the back of those few little shops in london road.
and you can take anything.
you can take erm any drink can unsorted.
you can take glass and you can take pa papers.
and in saffron waldren 
suddenly thought you still got to have a little holdall membership forms in it, haven't you?
with all that peat and stuff.
they even take er pills.
with all that 
do they?
oh that's interesting to know 
remember w we did that peat they had a box that had a national membership forms in.
we could have that on the stall couldn't we?
oh yes,w i mean we have got various leaflets produce still which is in reasonable condition.
i've got yeah.
yeah we could take that you know membership and our own membership forms as well.
what pub is that then?
did you say a pub?
a pub, yeah, in front of the pub er in .
just before the 
oh the one in .
yeah.
before you go to st michael's school, the pub.
what is it called?
oh yeah, it's the oak isn't it?
the royal oak?
yeah cos that's next door but one to me so, yeah.
oh that's where you are.
yeah.
well anyway that is a new item on the recycling directory 
right 
oh they've got one near those shops in humana?
could you find out what happens to the ?
yeah i know they come er there's a big lorry comes and collects them.
yeah.
but whether they are sent to the third world or torn into rags or
yeah 
well you've got the, i mean industry uses rags.
wiping up oil and things like that.
i might c call .
if i see them collecting i'll ask .
and then if you're collating 
you have to ring.
yeah.
erm find out from 
oh well i'll get the 
the charity shops what they want 
havers shops 
yeah.
address
oh right.
charity shops.
ah er the other item that we must mention is any extra plastic bags
yeah, i'll ask about plastic bags.
are extremely welcome in any charity shop.
now, what about engine oil?
because oh actually we've got some in our garage now sitting there and waiting to go somewhere.
the council takes it.
the council takes it?
yes i'm almost certain.
i mean a visit to the council to find out exactly what they do take would be
mm.
but can you take it back to garages as well?
no.
no.
no.
halfords halfords in harlow is one that that that we found out took it.
but i ce ce i'm almost certain the council takes it.
yeah i remember big bins wasn't sort of sure what else 
they also take batteries.
i know that.
car batteries.
do they?
car batteries.
the car batteries 
that's the council?
to get money at at 
right.
but what about erm little batteries?
i i'm collecting those.
yeah.
you are collecting them?
what happens to radio batteries?
are still doing it?
yeah.
and they bring them up to me 
ah 
i'm just waiting for a day of action on .
what do english er what do the english do with batteries and then dump them!
in those letters ursula th there's
yeah?
a letter which says they they have stopped doing it.
oh yeah.
that photostad have stopped doing it.
oh.
about the second, quite early on isn't it?
oh yeah i was 
i was gonna say it's about the last one!
think you were reading them upside down!
well they only, they only er took the batteries over to me before we left on holiday.
so they must still be doing them and that was two huge boxes.
oh.
er
i know they are not very happy 
well that needs a check that needs needs another check i i would guess.
yeah.
and i quite honestly i don't 
i i'm going to say about back to this erm sump oil.
my brother-in-law said he read in the paper that erm over a year sort of the amount of oil tipped on our land and down drains which shouldn't be there is almost like equivalent to the disaster at exxon valdez.
i heard that.
th erm the amount of oil that people just tip on the ground, or down the drains or whatever
mm.
over a year is equivalent to the disaster of the exxon valdez.
so really people ought to be trained to take their engine oil out 
there's this, there's this er out of sight out of mind principal 
you are fined you are heavily fined in germany and for decades already.
you were not allowed to wash your car on a normal street because oil would automatically be flushed into into the guttering, into the
they must be going absolutely mad about east germany mustn't they?
well it's just so incredible that this oil has never been i mean nobody focused on it did they?
no.
people just don't think.
they just tip it oh tip it down the drain.
same with petrol stations i mean the way they spill the petrol.
i know!
there used to be safety catch mechanism 
yeah.
but there isn't now is there it just comes splashing out.
well really i mean with quite a few you really have to watch out which is 
they had a row at erm petrol station when that happened to her.
and they said it was our car.
and, and it went, cos it was quite a bit more worth petrol that went all over the place.
and she refused to pay.
and they me up about it.
i, i sort of denied all knowledge .
i didn't know it had happened!
i think they were being most unreasonable.
we at the time the attendant said it was alright.
she didn't have to pay for it.
it could easily i mean will be shorter i think.
sorry?
fewer localities now.
this will be shorter.
i think we can easily put erm pits for daily life or how to be environmental.
and then
oh a few tips.
oh
with respect i really think it ought to be recycling and nothing else.
mm.
well i just find these, i mean we had quite a few now
cos recycling sort of comes into the tips for daily life as well though doesn't it.
it's part of it.
like protecting people don't just save bottles they save their glass jars 
seem to be patronizing people when really you just want to give information.
as well.
people don't always think of.
yeah.
re-using things, re-using things is almost the same as recycling isn't it?
re-use?
yes.
yeah!
i suppose it's i mean 
well it is really isn't it?
re-using is better than recycling.
yeah.
erm.
so.
erm i take 
so it 
reduce or re-use, recycling?
has anybody got a con 
punchlines are much better than sort of er .
because people'll read those.
well you can write save money across the top then
well i, i wrote actually that article for the the herald and post that has appeared in harlow but not here.
a whole load of tips like that.
oh.
now every week i open herald and post and think oh it's gonna be in there, it's gonna be in there but it never is.
it's only appeared in harlow and she told me it would get in the bishop's stortford one but it hasn't so far.
it's a bit annoying really.
who does all the schools?
as to recycling.
they must be checked.
what about asking caroline?
school.
well i mean somebody who knows the teachers or
yes.
that's gonna be a difficult one cos they don't always want 
i will i'll do the schools.
yeah.
erm the general public walking into their
yeah.
.
we ought to split the schools because there's quite a lot of them.
i'll do the primary you do the secondary.
i'll do the secondary.
what about that?
okay.
primary.
well i think boy's high were active in between weren't they?
whether they er still are.
how about st mary?
i i found that erm erm littered all over the place!
st mary is wall!
the p e 
do they still do it?
the p e teacher is supposedly collecting aluminium cans and we've been through various daft schemes of stopping the children from throwing the cans everywhere because we've got this coke machine.
and we even had one where they paid a ten p deposit on a can so they paid forty p instead of thirty or whatever.
and i got hardly any cans back.
or they did was b buy them from the school canteen where they were still thirty!
and the coke machine wasn't used.
well why not er encourage the canteen to charge forty 
they didn't but then they had 
as well?
well, they won't because they they they have to make money in order to survive.
the more money they make the better for them.
they have to run it as a business now.
for profit i'm afraid.
er oh i did have one polish lad who's now left who used to go round looking for all the cans and he'd then collect the ten p's!
scheme folded.
through lack of support.
so what else is mentioned here?
i think that still holds.
and i can check, i will go and .
and car batteries is the same.
other batteries i'll check.
pills er you check
yeah.
.
furniture erm yeah i think that's.
is there a second hand furniture shop now in bishop's stortford?
there is one isn't there?
is there one down by the causeway?
yes there is.
who is going to check that?
well i can check it.
yeah.
yeah?
whether they take 
yes.
yes.
i mean whether they want any .
right.
okay.
could i just borrow your pen and i'll write that down.
thanks.
are red cross still taking furniture in stortford?
now where is red cross?
erm well i think the furniture you have to take down to ware when i last phoned.
there's a number in the er when i was church street so that's a few years now so it needs to be checked .
would you do that?
so it's whether they take furniture?
okay.
newspapers i think that is normally isn't it?
do you think people are 
folded 
what's that shop in the causeway near the sunbed erm it it's a second hand furniture in there isn't it?
is it?
but h i mean are people in the habit of wanting to get rid of furniture?
i mean i mean if it, if it's really grotty i mean 
well you can get i mean, according to the leaflet you can just phone up and get the council to collect .
no .
glass, we haven't got any bottle banks.
and that's where we need to contact what is in the pipeline 
yeah.
bottle bank somewhere.
yeah there's, there's one at sainsbury's now isn't there which is new since that.
yeah there is thorley sainsbury's.
thorley sainsbury's.
they have one now?
they do.
yes.
oh!
they suddenly found the room.
yes actually.
well in a parking block.
er would anyone like coffee?
no thank you.
one, two.
now what was it, i mean or would you prefer anything else?
some tea?
tea?
i'll i'll go and check .
one thing i struck me this week there's a new regulation as regard punctures on tyres because i had this completely flat tyre and a whole new set of tyres and i said to him well can't you mend it, can't you put an inner tube in like i i've done before cos there was a nail in it you see.
yeah.
and i said just get the nail out and re repair the inner tube he said no it's the there's a new regulation this year that if the outer case of the you know the tyre has 
tea.
they're not allowed to repair it because safety regulations because the whole expanse and then supposedly the actual puncture comes off.
and i said well what happens to these extra tyres?
right.
so he sa , i mean does anybody know anything about anything like that?
no, no.
presum i mean i just lost four 
i know this i just know about about a sort of friend of ours is making money meanwhile in germany .
he found well of course erm connections so he got the permission through the embassy.
he's now running lorry loads of worn tyres to russia, to the soviet union and makes money loads of money because the tyres, they couldn't ha get any tyres so the tyres he saw there were totally without profile.
you know.
yeah.
so the old tyres he could erm find in germany were a lot better.
he carted them over.
. making thousands out of it.
yeah.
well people do that here though don't they?
se sell them to africa and places yeah .
alright if it doesn't rain actually so it wouldn't matter if they didn't have treads on er treads on the tyres if it's dry it doesn't really matter you just go round slicks and 
i think could chop them up and use them to make road surfaces with.
yeah but percentages is 
mm.
at least you know they can do it!
mm that's right.
oh they can do quite a lot of it.
i mean even the, the su surface out of the play in playgrounds .
mm.
i can never quite work out why that .
most roads 
so, so far i've got two coffees here and one tea.
anybody else for anything?
i'll have a coffee please.
coffee?
black please.
black coffee.
white.
white.
white.
so we've got about six weeks in which to do this.
so how many weeks
i mean there's no excuse i all the jobs are quite quickly done aren't they?
yeah.
so what we ought to have a deadline for collect collecting the information.
and then get together
yeah.
to put it together.
and then decide on
and how to
and how to get, how to get it to put it together.
shall we say three weeks?
three weeks yeah.
probably for everybody just to do it and
yeah.
and i don't think anybody has more time in in four weeks time
so if you say six weeks by then you 
yeah yeah.
it's too near.
so the thirtieth of september we'll meet here again.
meeting?
can, can we meet at house?
yes.
it's more sensible for 
meet where?
what's your address?
forty two?
thirty two.
.
is that alright?
or what?
mondays is actually not very good for me but hopefully by then 
i don't think i can make that either but er
val, can i have your phone number please?
right.
erm what did you say?
thirtieth?
well that's .
go through.
so plastics erm ya i think that's re-using is better than recycling.
and erm then mention the charity shops.
i mean we don't need to imply anything there.
there's no new recycling centre nearby for plastics is there?
so who mentioned this 
the what?
talk about recycling mention that.
i just remember it from the .
now bejam have become iceland they haven't done the plastic bags collection have they like the, a lot of the .
they haven't got a provision for plastic bags 
is that worth checking out?
i know a lot of the iceland do have a recycling
i i'll do that, if i'm doing plastic bags at charity shops i'll check 
plastic bag recycling 
what's happened to sainsbury's one p back cos they don't actually 
yes i was yes 
they don't actually give you one p any more.
no!
i think supposed to, they are supposed to.
i i always make them give me three p
this in the friend of the earth, germany she stayed with us, i really would have liked you to meet her.
she was fanatic!
you have cat f food in tins!
how dare you!you know .
what do they 
from the butcher and
oh, really.
locally, no transport.
cut out transport.
only local foods and 
if it's available.
yes well mm.
so who, who.
are you doing the bottle bank ?
you doing the bottle banks?
who's doing the bottle banks?
yeah.
thanks ever so much.
because er caroline once wanted one in a school and we weren't allowed to have it.
no i won't thank you.
well there's one at erm .
the erm wine merchant.
you know erm the one down the bottom of thorley hill.
well they were, they were sort of advertising er giving you money back.
. i don't know if 
down in the er 
yeah.
can you find out more ?
and also we do 
quite a few we can write at the bottom er for more inf if you have any more information or something in small print
mm.
please contact and then we can do the next few hundred 
the thing is you can, you can change them very easily.
ya.
that means you can er pay for it easier.
i wouldn't print more than three hundred for a start.
so if we get further information we can always if not we can just get printed.
that's very impressive isn't it?
that's that council of environment .
no sorry.
council's environment advisory committee.
oh that must be that must be the one er
rob's on.
thought this was good about the, buying the r s p c a that boat oil spill.
doesn't look very steady though does it!
yeah they look like!
it's ever so tiny isn't it!
yeah.
coracle .
well they've got to keep their green image, green image going haven't they?
so kath while you were coffee making we decided on er three weeks for collecting information.
oh right.
and another three weeks for production.
which will make the thirtieth of september a meeting at portland road.
that's a
monday.
although for two of us monday's aren't good.
so i don't know whether 
i would prefer another day.
three.
that makes three.
monday or tuesday is no good.
you can't do tuesday?
wednesday?
wednesday now wednesday would be the 
second of october.
second of october.
it's at your house?
is that all, that's changed then has it wednesday the second of october?
have we decided on wednesday?
no i think we should 
thing is i don't think i can but er i mean i might be able to pop in for about half an hour.
because i mean i can find out what goes on
yeah and leave, leave the stuff 
yeah 
beforehand.
i'll probably phone it in actually.
yeah.
if that's okay.
er second at what ti .
wednesday second of october.
what time?
eight thirty.
eight thirty.
and this is, this is about the leaflet is it?
yeah.
yes.
get all the information.
decide on how we do the thing.
and erm do take it
to go into details of that it's probably much more sensible to do it with just two or three people.
but er at least if we can pull the information together that evening that'd be a start.
form a sub committee!
ooh!
sub committee with everybody present!
well you can always divide up.
thanks ever so much folks and i'll see you 
oh you've got to go.
soon.
see you.
bye katherine.
see you then.
thanks katherine.
your welcome.
i'll be in touch.
bye.
so what's gonna be on this stall then?
apart from the new leaflets and a few 
some re re-use labels.
yeah.
you're gonna buy, you're gonna buy some?
i'll send off for some stuff.
i'll just do it.
okay.
those traidcraft ones.
we've got some money.
money sitting round accounts doing nothing.
how much money have we got?
oh.
probably loads.
can't remember.
i'd better let you know what we have got in stock just in case there's anything there that you're
yeah.
you haven't have you?
no.
i i don't think so.
are you gonna get leaflets and you know friends of the earth leaflets?
i've got l , well they've got loads, i've got a big wallet folder full of all the various leaflets.
you have.
right.
erm 
car stickers and 
cakes or anything like produce or 
i don't know.
i mean it, it's up to you.
i don't know if it's that sort of a do really.
mm.
hundred and sixty eight pounds thirty nine pence.
oh gosh!
is that their new catalogue or is that the one, the summer one?
this is spring summer.
it's it's the latest one isn't it?
i haven't had another one .
i mean they may be just just just about bringing one out so
they're just about to bring one out aren't they?
the christmas lot will be out 
that one.
sorry?
august that one.
the r s p b 
well i i've been sent a local 
oh that was is that true?
no i've got a
no, it said it in there 
i've got a local group six pound order form autumn and winter ninety one.
but i don't think they change that much.
i think they just sort of it's the same thing in a different order.
and it's it's got a lot of sort of stuff that's left over from 
christmassy things 
that'll do.
yeah.
erm.
but i mean do we want to have any produce or anything else?
i'm just looking at this stall thinking there's gonna be next to nothing on it.
mm.
yeah.
i think if some cakes we need definitely.
oh.
so we have to do 
to make it look right so
good advertising!
what is the, what is the concert in fact?
well i, i honestly don't know an awful lot about it.
i don't think he knows that much 
it was low cost through the 
no cos it's concert.
there's going 
oh concert.
to be a concert there.
all saints, they were going to have a concert weren't they.
no.
this is at the rhodes centre.
the rhodes centre.
the concert at which we've got this stall.
yeah.
the traidcraft's stall.
.
i mean he kept he didn't know.
he said to me on the phone he didn't know a great deal cos he was just getting it all together.
and he said, today he phoned me just as i was going out and i didn't really sort of stop and talk to him very long.
he just asked me what we needed and i said well a table.
we don't really need anything else do we?
like power supply or 
oh no quite 
something with flashing lights on it!
so what time of the day is that?
it's evening.
seven or eight o'clock.
he told me.
how long does it go on for?
no idea.
he said he'd phone me again you see.
i think if there's a concert there'll be a rush at the beginning and there'll be a rush at the end.
possibly a rush at the, at an interval i suppose.
what concert is it then?
i mean
well i don't know!
sounds a funny, funny evening to me! bit of a mish-mash isn't it.
i mean 
but he's he just 
the oth .
the other thing we could do.
sorry.
liz.
is is to see whether green consumer rob and trish want to, to to have something.
i guess that would be a .
i mean i wonder who exactly you're attracting if you've got people coming to listen to music and then
well i think something to do with the church isn't it.
i think he mentioned the church
go through the church ?
i don't know what the one,the the there's usually a theme for every one world week each year and i don't know what the theme is for this year.
.
act together for tomorrow's world.
yeah!
fine!
well.
yeah.
there you go!
and he said we come under that heading so.
good.
right.
but all he
there's nothing else going on apart from this concert 
i don't know.
i'll ask him.
i'll ask him .
erm we'd better get on to a few other things.
i've got erm greenpeace written to me.
they're having a family fun day on what day is it.
saturday the twenty eighth of september.
that's at much hadham hall, village hall.
two o'clock to five o'clock.
they want to know if we want to have a stall there?
family fun day much hadham village hall?
yeah.
do you know where that is in much hadham?
opposite the bull pub isn't it?
right.
er he wants to know do we want to have a stall there and that's gonna cost us five pounds.
if we have that.
erm
well you could get produce for that.
and then if you ordered now.
i bet they probably be really competing with them in a way won't we cos they've got all the same sort of stuff.
won't they?
yeah.
greenpeace sell them mugs and re-use labels and sort of things like that.
i don't know what you think.
erm and there's er 
i would suggest
if it's a fun day why don't we do a game or something.
why do, you know.
well it's.
they're celebrating their twentieth birthday celebrations.
erm and then th in the evening there's an event.
which starts at eight o'clock with two live bands, cabaret, disco and bar.
tickets three pound fifty.
does anybody want to go?
that's a good idea but it's offer to do a game.
well they've got what they've got on here is they've got whale watch talk and slides.
. punch and judy show.
magic and juggling with ka plate spinning.
er playbus painting competition.
raffle, refreshments, tombola and various merchandise stalls so i suppose that's us.
quite 
mm.
do they do fire eating act or
we can contortionism or my legs up behind my neck.
an alternative might be to just to ask whether some of our membership forms could be put out so that 
well i think they're more interested in the five pounds!
yeah alright well.
yeah.
i mean to make a contribution.
no to be honest because that that's what greenpeace do isn't it?
don't you belong?
yeah start the harlow one up
yeah.
the whole of their effort really is devoted to 
yeah they don't do it.
they're actually, they just do fund raising to their local groups and everything else is obviously sort of controlled by central office or 
that's right everything is central.
ac action is central or something.
yeah but i mean
so they're probably just gonna have their you know merchandise and a few people sort of 
it's difficult really because i mean we're sort of striving for the same sort of things 
i know.
yeah.
aren't we.
it's er you don't want to be seen to be erm
who's it actually run by?
competing with each other in any way.
well.
i think his name's actually written out.
i'm not sure 
it's like trying to unite the churches.
yeah.
it looks like somebody plus plusky oh yeah.
no.
oh well.
it's signed by s .
oh no sorry..
that can't possibly say .
well it says leslie at the top.
but there's something else underneath.
i mean is that 
but is that a greenpeace central office thing or is it erm
a local group.
a local group?
east herts.
but does it, pat does it doesn't he?
for herts yeah.
he still does it now.
how do you know?
that have got so involved in that.
yeah.
and and bob did it here in bishop's stortford but i don't know whether he's still i think he still does it because he was very committed.
but i i just pat was doing it for bishop's stortford on or thereabouts because he sent me all the details about the whale walk .
cos i i gave his name to this guy organizing the one world week.
and he hadn't had any joy out of greenpeace.
can i borrow that a minute?
what this?
yeah 
the problem we've got with greenpeace they might not have so much in the way of merchandise and they just have the stickers and 
there's the leaflets.
things and leaflets.
yeah i think it just depends whether the local group want to take up the option or not.
i don't think there's anything i've got to tell you.
er except there's a day of action but it's right that's right into november now so you can hear about that .
so we this next meeting at 
yeah.
i i think we can sort out more about the st stall i mean if we can sell things 
well this this this er greenpeace letter predates the september.
oh that is a pity.
i think that's actually a bit too soon to get ourselves organized 
shall i shall i just write off and send them like pound or donation and a few leaflets could 
yeah.
say we're quite prepared to make a contribution, mm.
you put them out or circulate them.
yeah?
yeah i mean don't think rob would be interested.
yeah.
he he ought to know about it though 
i'll ask him about it.
cos he lives up the road from there doesn't he?
oh yeah.
erm
and he could collect some money for the 
.
alright i'll tell
yeah.
i expect he, you know they're fairly busy but you know they may well 
and i'll tell 
not want to go.
yeah.
anyway i'll see you all on wednesday 
thanks for coming.
erm 
bye liz.
i'll going in the afternoon 
there's a few other things 
that i've got to get through here.
i mean 
erm i've got here.
i've been sent some stuff by chris who used to run harlow group.
oh yeah.
chris who was that?
?
.
not christine!
yeah that's right they cos erm so i've got a whole long list of all these people who used to belong to harlow which is absolutely enormous.
is that friends of the earth?
yeah.
masses of names 
loads of money and 
well no, i 
no they've folded now 
they have folded.
well i think that list is the list that what was his name, chris?
quite a few as well.
but if you look properly it's a, that is not only harlow.
remember he wanted to merge the groups?
don't you remember?
oh yeah.
oh yes.
of course.
and he had all the numbers.
because he also works 
yes.
some of ou .
yeah.
in a erm london.
isn't it the national?
no it's it's all the 
no.
he wanted to call it stort group or something.
oh yeah 
stort valley or something wasn't it?
stort valley group .
well there's a lo quite a lot.
it's mostly harlow actually when you look through it.
but there are bishop's stortford ones too.
yeah that's all the 
and the vast majority's harlow.
that was his plan of having 
what, what do they do they want.
what do they want to do?
do they want join our group or 
nothing.
he said he he's apparently just moved and he's got involved with this other charity erm to do with the united nations friends of the earth and just passed it on to me.
cos the there there must be useful contacts you see.
people who sympathize.
we've got the names.
mm.
they were fairly enthusiastic when they started off.
mm.
so i 
but i i mean we i don't know whether you think it's worth contacting or not.
it might be.
yes.
w either when we've got a reason to contact them
yeah.
or with a specific letter for them saying you know welcome if you if you feel like it.
actually just just quickly er i just noticed on that list of your questionnaires that we got back a couple that they didn't actually know what was going on.
and that you know perhaps this is er erm publicity wise i wonder whether we're falling a bit short on our publicity.
well.
they didn't know i mean like first newsletter we've had in ages.
and it's something else that we need to get 
we can't just sort of 
no exactly 
we've got to get, we should get more publicity.
but it's ever so easy for somebody to sit at home and say well you should be doing this and you should be doing that
oh yeah yeah.
and not doing
no i'm i'm not sa , i'm not saying.
i'm not saying you should be doing anything i'm just er 
no i didn't mean you, i meant them!
no well .
i well really i don't think you should say you're not doing enough!
no 
i think last year more or less shows that we really have to concentrate on one thing.
do it and then plan 
yeah.
plan the next .
because otherwise we just 
and then write about it if we want to.
yeah.
so what what we'll do quickly to write and inform them all that we're doing this stall and won't we?
yes.
we could even send them a recycling sheet.
yeah.
and the most recent newsletter.
yeah.
yeah.
and a, and a short letter i do don't know whether you said that.
are you talking about this lot or 
yeah.
or that lot?
sorry?
yeah sorry i was also tal we were talking about our own membership 
talking about stortford 
oh right!
and we passed on.
no i think they i mean
they complain they don't get any information.
my first contacts with friends of the earth in this region sort of what six years ago was harlow.
mm.
and they were all enthusiastic and confident and 
well what happened to them?
and when there was another friend who was still over here at that time.
and we went three times and they always planned and planned and planned and had ideas what they could do.
and they never pulled round to actually doing it 
no.
properly.
right.
and i think the same happened as with us.
they wrote letters and they did didn't have the energy
mm.
to write again and again you know and you never get a positive answer, clear answer first, first time round do you?
mm.
you have to write and and write more details or put more pressure on and have more people write.
but if you just write a single letter 
yeah but you should .
i know you two have been 
yeah.
mm.
i'm used to it.
i mean it evaporates.
.
didn't we have er a membership thing which said about erm membership form which actually explained what what we did in if you want to join return this sort of thing.
yeah.
i've got loads of those.
have you still got those?
yes.
i've got all those.
we've still got those somewhere then.
yeah.
well i've go have got the .
i don't think i don't know if i've got a master.
but i know i've got lots that could be copied so we could send them out.
well i've got the master still somewhere.
well anyway it's something to bear in mind the fact that we've got that list anyway.
erm 
yeah how many.
sort of what's the approximate number of people on it?
i don't know.
i'm not very good at estimating numbers.
one two three four 
oh and then there was there's it's it's it's not all harlow it's all just
yeah it's stort valley.
ya.
this chris what was his name?
i don't remember.
i don't, didn't even know his name was chris.
don't you remember he he then suggested th that walk along the stort?
i do yeah.
i mean i'd forgotten all about him but i can remember 
do you remember that.
that was a really silly thing wasn't it?
can i just have a look kath?
yeah.
he organized it all and then i think was it a week before he suddenly said well we can't possibly have two hundred people walking along a nature trail that we want to protect.
and he was really of the illusion that there might be i think two hundred no six hundred people 
two hundred people might turn up.
turning up.
in the end i think three people turned up.
oh.
it was, it was no it was 
this looks really interesting.
get it.
i had to write off
yeah.
er it was a nice er display thing to show to show the kids when you do talks in schools.
yeah yeah.
well i mean i'd certainly use it.
is is that greenpeace?
yeah that's what i think is it's no 
it's a resources pack 
mm.
it's his own is it?
well he's obvious they've obviously the group has bought it and he's got it and he's gonna say do you want to buy 
oh yeah.
oh yeah.
for ten instead of twenty.
originally cost twenty pounds and we could get it for ten it's er 
it's chris 
it's erm living forests resources pack.
looks good doesn't it?that i thought.
erm with all sorts of po posters and teacher's notes and things.
well i firmly believe in building up a library .
so do i.
good i'm glad 
i i mean there's 
you said that because i w i want to buy a book!
no library because i think er if you are contacted for information and you are able to say okay we have a book or we have books.
yeah.
that's that's one of the things i i i ke , i've kept all my new scientists.
i keep these.
yeah.
i go through them gonna collate that cos there's loads of stuff in there good.
yeah.
but i do get quite a few people phone me as you know asking for information.
i just photocopy relevant bits 
none of none of them has got in contact with me.
really!
no.
aren't they funny.
i get the feeling 
well i should give you er 
that they either phone in.
phone me and then get it all given to them just like that.
that yeah.
and no further effort involved cos
well i should, i could .
no it isn't.
this woman who, who keeps phoning me up about all this oil pollution on her land.
she she.
i sent, i wrote off to friends of the earth, i got a load of information all about the law and she still phones me up and say oh you know what the district council's they won't do anything and the n r a wasn't doing anything.
and i said well when did you last contact them?
february!
apparently she's got a problem that the oil pollution is coming off this site where they're refurbishing the boilers.
it's gotten on to her land and off her land and into the ditch, which is you know the n r a 
where is that?
er roydon some way?
you know where all those nurseries are?
and because the oil is coming to the ditch via her land they can't have a go at the primary source.
this is what she said and i, to me it doesn't sound right.
she said nobody'll nob they all say they haven't got the power to prosecute and i said well the n r a has.
they've got more clout than anybody else.
mm.
more clout than the district council.
and then she keeps saying but you know what these councils are like.
and i said i'm not talking about the council, i'm talking about the n r a!
and now she wants me to find out how can er found out about a solicitor or somebody who specialises in this sort of thing.
to take the district council to court.
so that she's more expensive to them than this other lot will be.
apparently they're causing quite te dreadful pollution.
it's all this oil from the boilers leaking on to her into her soil and out into the ditch.
well 
certainly is.
but erm in the back of my mind there comes that she's saying to me don't get involved, don't get involved.
you know who owns all that land, it's the mafia.
and this could be why she's getting nowhere.
you could give her er erm er wr , give her the address of friends of the earth, london.
oh she's already .
that's how she got in contact with me!
you see they refer everybody on and then i 
well but they should give her a soli , the name of a solicitor.
there must be green solicitors about.
i have to write to them and ask them and about a month later they reply to me and i pass it on to her.
because i don't know off hand.
i've asked jeffrey to ask a friend about it who's a solicitor if he knows anybody but i c , i can't i haven't got the in information.
i don't
does anybody of you remember where friends of the earth england erm analyze their expenditures.
their income and their finance for the last year?
i i saw it somewhere and i got lost track of it.
and i was appalled as to how much they spend on publicity.
but i can't do anything with it because i lost the numbers.
mm.
i don't know i'll have, have a look.
i don't remember seeing 
the thing is this .
does anybody of you seen that or remember?
no.
no.
no.
so are we saying yes to that?
yeah.
yeah.
erm can i just ask you.
does anybody wanna go on the energy campaign weekend?
no thank you.
and there's this book.
which i think we might like to don't worry .
erm energy without aids.
which i think would be a good idea if we got it because i don't know about you but i'm always having arguments with people who say oh we can't have the whole country covered in windmills and
mm.
things like that.
they all think nuclear powers okay.
so we really need to know our 
what's the energy thing weekend just out of curiosity?
and 
good.
right.
go on 
i don't.
i don't know these things.
no.
well you don't get them.
i do and i feel obliged to pass it all on.
i can't just sort of 
no.
but it, i, it's only six ninety five and i thought if we had you know a few facts at our fingertips to say well that's all rubbish you know.
so what is that?
is that er booklet or something?
it's a book.
book.
just talking about al you know alternative 
on erm renewable yeah 
energy really i think.
yeah.
because they keep saying oh what's gonna happen when the whole population of china wants a fridge and 
mm god!
i haven't got an answer for things like that.
mm.
there is no answer really.
because want to catch up with us and we're already using too much energy.
change your lifestyle.
i just thought the more facts you've got at your fingertips the more easy it is to persuade people.
yeah if we've got some money we might as well spend it.
yeah.
yeah.
okay.
educate ourselves.
an and the next day of action as i said before is on tropical rainforests erm .
connection with er tropical woods 
oh we did actually do 
november the ninth.
for the architects.
like hertfordshire architects
yeah.
for example.
do something basically have a 
yes 
mailshot or ring them up or.
they're a pretty depressed lot at the moment 
yeah i bet they are.
they have nothing to do 
not much to look forward to so they'll probably like a bit of excitement.
nothing to do.
no i i don't know what it's going to be about they haven't sent any information.
it's just that er i've got the date.
right.
when when they say.
is it an action day ?
it's an action day.
it's the next day of action and
what date?
that's a saturday.
what date?
november the ninth.
it's only just after the one world week thing.
well it's october.
well if i if i get 
well it's only two week's after.
yeah.
and i don't know what it's going to be 
you know know which would recommend 
yeah.
this.
i mean i have been into this window frame business.
mm
because we have to have sash and sash soft wood.
so anyway various companies wrote.
well they do use tropical rainforest wood but
yeah.
it's government er schemes.
yeah it's like some sort of erm okay.
yeah.
and i mean i have, i i remember that on some t v programmes they they said it's all bogus
mm.
i mean that it is not really government run er .
they reforest it but what they reforest is eucalyptus or 
yeah palm erm they oil palm plantations 
mm.
mm.
they just er .
actually i've got a, i've got a brilliant picture that i took outside the train.
erm we were travelling through malaysia and erm it's just one canopy tree standing on its own in the middle of nowhere.
and there's all this sort of undergrowth.
and it's obviously that one wasn't, just didn't want it or it was dead or something and they just left it.
mhm.
and it's just the one.
and then i've got all the pictures of all the logs on the train wagons and er that was really it was a, it was a good picture actually cos i thought oh look at that poor old tree there it's
yeah.
all its friends and then it was just standing there on the ground.
but really it's completely it's completely wiped out malaysia the whole of central malaysia is just just gone.
and all the soil's eroding cos it's sort of sand and it's red.
and it goes into dust.
so it goes everywhere so i mean there's gonna be trouble with that in the future .
it's where they get all the flooding isn't it?
oh yes.
right.
oh.
okay.
thanks.
thank you very much.
right mom?
where's the food?
i'm hungry mom.
oh would you?
just for me?
oh gratitude.
picker.
oh hey clifton's coming round, gonna play football
clifton and we're gonna play football
what's clifton
clifton
what's up michael?
hello
where's the ball?
where's your ball?
ball
where?
ball
where's the ball?
here
well give it here
where's the ball?
there
mhm, it's nice.
come on michael eat your dinner 
mom, you have to speak english.
no, i told you yesterday
i can't hear
well you have to speak english
why is that?
cos thing
what thing?
this
oh you mean you are taping me
no, i have to leave it on all the time
are you taping me now?
so everything i say is running
yeah
who is going to listen to it?
some people in norway
norway?
oh my god
oh my god
oh god
shut up boy
oh god
yes i can.
hello?
yes terry morning morning.
what?
what's that shit music in the background?
what's that shit mus 
come and finish your dinner
oi listen to this.
you know that taping thing? you know the micro thing you know?
yeah i'm doing it now.
yes i am.
it's picking up all that you say you know.
it is .
not for me man.
nick who?
nick who?
oh duane told me something about nick or nicky.
was it?
what's he say?
oh right.
oh.
didn't get what she said man.
colin, i don't know, he probably won't come.
i asked him.
is it?
i'll phone nick and colin right.
alright then laters.
dickhead, dickhead.
laters.
he said some and get your and finish your dinner
i have to phone nick
forget about nick
shit what's nick's phone number?
and stop swearing the tape
you're allowed to swear.
no.
fucking hell man.
oh no.
i can swear it i like okay 
hello
hi nick
yes
what're you doing man?
oi, i'm taping you you know
i'm taping you
hello
say hello to microphone
hello mister mike
yeah, pucker, hard core yeah, oi coming down park?
i dunno
come on
yeah y he 
are you coming?
i dunno
d'you wanna come?
not really
alright, don't bother coming, right?
alright then
d'you wanna come?
what?
yeah, it's bloody wicked.
i'm i'm going down there at five o'clock yeah
yeah
alright then, if you're not doing nothing right alright then laters, pucker.
who else can i ring?
mhm?
i have to get a lot of people
don't use my telephone
no 
seven five
hey
four four nine .
hello, colin?
hold on 
colin, yeah yeah, oi, d'you wanna come and play football then?
yeah, what time do you reckon you'll be there?
er says he's gonna knock for me about five yeah and we're gonna be there at five yeah.
so what time d' you reckon you can get there by if you leave now?
five past five
what, if you leave now?
well after i've had my dinner five past five
alright then, you know where we're gonna be?
yeah, it's either the fence yeah, you know that white fence, either there or on the other side where those gold things are you know, or if we're not there, go on the other side of the park where the other gold things are.
know what i mean?
just f yeah.
anyway, laters yeah, laters.
bye
what you want?
claudette 
no
claudette, come here
no
finish your dinner
oh fucking hell
go away
go on, eat your dinner, there 
hey, marco marco 
yes?
shall i hit him?
no, leave him
no
mom .
oi, get out my seat.
oh shit.
sit down.
no, more for me
so different
crunchy
no, they're not
nick ?
yeah
is he coming?
he might be yeah
for sure 
not for sure no
no we're not coming here
so shit yeah.
no.
do you know when you take this to school your teacher will listen to it
no they don't listen to it, they said you're allowed to swear as much as you like
no 
they said you're allow .
mom.
y'know when 
they're gonna say god, what kind of a family are there?
yeah, just like any other normal family
no 
shut up 
listen, you know yeah he went and brought a pot noodle cos he didn't want you to cook for him cos your food's really shit.
it's nice they brought him up 
no call it shit
mom 
i don't want no more chips
well don't have any 
i'm not 
mom, right, listen yeah.
i always looks after him
oh bloody hell mom
take girls.
they're gonna be there mom
how many of you 
about eleven of us
yeah right nick lives in southgate right next to me,lives in, where's he live?
he lives right you know and 
yes
yeah, he lives there
leave at half past ten
we leave at eleven
alright, we'll leave at half past ten
what?
who's got to take a bus?
it's not far mom.
i dunno.
mommy?
you keep quiet you
i think it's a party
i think it's a party
it's not a birthday party.
ac i do, actually i know it's a party actually
no, us, well, right to get in it's two pound, two pound fifty.
what're you doing?
well wicked.
love you too much to ever stop love, rastafarian now 
right.
no go away, who's it for ?
no it's for right in school
yeah?
yeah?
are you taping now?
no.
okay .
right in school yeah, erm after they gave us these yeah and they like wanna see like how we talk and all that.
you know 
yeah.
rastafarian style and all 
who wants who wants to see how you talk?
er it's whatsit it's some some er norwegian thing and
are you taping?
no it's rewinding.
oh okay.
yeah and i say something
what?
say homeboys.
i don't want to say that, i don't s talk like that.
alright just say, just speak.
terry i want you to piss off because i have an exam tomorrow.
but i don't care.
she don't know what to say.
.fuck off, you're allowed to swear as much as you like.
are you.
yeah.
fuck fuck fuck fuck i'm gonna fail 
you're gonna fail is it?
what's that you're gonna fail and you're gonna cheat for your g c s es ?
said that how am i gonna how am i gonna cheat 
you're gonna cheat.
you've got the answer sheet for the g c s es exam 
terry go away.
okay i'm going i'm going.
that is my very ungrateful sister who's a fat tart.
mum, where's my tea?
it's in here.
wicked.
you know what i found, you know you walk all the way round with your friends down the village and you come home.
yeah?
when you the other side telephone and i'll come and pick you up .
what where the park is?
not where the park the village on the way down.
yeah but i'm gonna walk with richie and andrew up to bloody down there.
with richie and andrew innit?
yeah and i give you a lift up to here .
when you get the other side of the park
yeah.
you know in the village there's a park where there's flowers.
no.
you know where 
yeah but everyone's gonna be walking there you don't mum.
yeah but then you're gonna separate.
no we don't we separate right at the bottom of this hill.
all ten eleven of you, here?live round here.
most of them live in .
.
yes they're gonna walk to .
do you want some tea?
it's hot you know .
put a lot of milk in it.
.
ah..
.
oi don't do that.
do you want some more tea?
i'm full.
morning.
it's on.
yeah.
.
your the .
seeing that it's your brother's birthday.
.
god you take enough time.
mhm.
take so long.
i know how it goes.
no it's not.
nice walkman.
mm?
cornwall.
innit?
huh?
i put an ad for the cafe on this.
shall i say shout.
here's a shout going out to college, the boys.
.
yes.
don't do that.
i have to leave it on all the time though.
here's another shout going to in college, boy.
i hate norwegian people.
i hate norwegian people.
oh i asked steve he said he'll come.
steve said he'll come.
yeah.
luckily.
huh?
luckily.
luckily.
who told your brother to have a birthday on bloody saturday?
couldn't he have it something like next month or something.
i bought some tapes to listen to.
i got megahits thirteen, and oh yeah c d.
cos i'm gonna tape it again cos my thing's clapped up and all..
what?
the tape like i keep on doing it wrong.
cos i done it with my old hi-fi yeah
and it conked out.
it well it does tapes yeah but it's like the bass keeps on going down then it goes high then the main bit's like you know what i mean it all gets crapped up so i'll tape it again.
do you like it?
what?
that c d.
i love that c d.
my rastafarian .
so do you like norwegians?
norwegians.
no like i hate them.
they're cunts.
cunts .
my sister goes that's right?
i goes yeah.
she goes, fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck really loud yeah she goes fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.
who's that?
my sister.
she's got a bloody erm french g c s e today.
the main g s g c s e yeah for french, a whole big thing big .
she's leaving in a couple of weeks.
she's going college.
how long's your brother going going there?
my sister's gonna go to college.
maybe she might be.
it's either , or sixth form.
going to the sixth form?
maybe.
what is?
is it?
you p you should have played football yesterday you know.
i saw mustapha down there, he played went with his erm father.
played football.
huh?
who came.
some boys.
no one like everyone from our school you know what i mean, no one that you don't know.
i mean you know everyone.
what all the people from our school.
everyone not a 
just people in our class you know what i mean.
james , micky ,
clifton, me, colin i don't know why colin came.
he's got holes in his jeans.
what a fashion statement man.
bloody things innit?
whatsit?
.
i knew what it was.
i knew what it was.
it was nothing .
on the other page yeah it had a picture of like this chart yeah and it had the picture of a grapefruit in all this sharing, you had to just draw that.
my drawing's enough crap cos i i was buzzed when i was doing that.
.
transformers, robots in disguise.
listen to this now?
who?
yeah.
yeah and teachers from our school are gonna listen to it.
mr is a wanker.
it don't matter.
they can't give me detention for this.
yeah man.
huh?
yeah man..
morning.
on the tape.
. say something say something.
yeah just say something.
give out a shout to someone.
go on.
why are you taping.
yeah.
who don't you like?
you.
besides me.
nick.
besides nick.
everyone.
everyone oh.
oi nick,nick i done this bad burp 
and i put it on my ghetto blaster yeah, me and nicky listened to it yeah, and it comes out wicked .
put that on.
no it's not on this tape, it's on the other tape.
mm.
cos i i've done one tape.
i sleep.
.
that gave me a good idea actually.
.
yeah, i done a burp.
had a haircut?
no.
it looks different, you had it round the shi sides.
mhm.
mhm.
mhm.
mhm.
guess who asked out nick.
mm.
guess who asked out,
who?
derek.
mhm he's a dickhead isn't he.
innit?
.
yoghurt.
hiya terry.
morning.
morning nick.
morning.
morning..
didn't i?
did you?
yeah, last easter.
it had a big egg in it.
don't you remember?
you gave me a kit-kat one.
yeah.
i got two kit-kat things.
where you going.
car?
yeah yeah .
..
nick, you're a bad boy?
or are you a bad girl?
you're a poofter.
is it still taping?
yeah, leave it on.
get one big gruesome 
just do a real one mate.
oi .
execution thing.
yeah.
it's gonna be bad.
you motherfucker.
oh wicked, i can pick up the revs.
innit, pick up the revs. those fingerprints?
me.
you?
no.
it wasn't what time is it tel?
it's erm five to.
yeah.
yeah.
me?
.
you've put new alloys on?
going to the park today.
okay?
are you taking the baby?
no.
take all that hassle.
oh carolina is a girl she buck up in the 
and rock your body just like you move, some come girlie, girlie, da da, da da da da .
go away michael!
go, go to mummy.
go to mum.
go away!
piss off!
go away!!
faggot!
hello.
yeah.
er erm possibly, yeah.
you coming then?
ah meet you up the park then?
you got a , yeah, yeah!
yeah, yeah!
mm mm!
my dada!
why don't you go if i'm not going?
you're horrible!
boo ooh!
yeah.
if i go, yeah?
i'll be down the park.
i mean alright.
is it th , everybody's gonna be down the park, yeah?
i dunno.
what down the park now?
no.
what?
oh micky mars bars been knocking for me, clinton's supposed to be knocking for me, jay don't know what the fuck's he's, he's supposed to be doing!
oh.
colin dunno know what he's gonna do.
colin.
well come down here then.
yeah cos then,th they're not gonna be down the park are they?
come down here yeah?
alright, latest.
i was taping this by the way.
i don't mind!
i dunno, it's up to you, you know.
i'm not going to control your whole your life.
look, if you wanna ride up, ride up, if you don't, don't.
alright, give me a call.
don't tal , i don't wanna talk to you nick.
no i don't want to talk to nick.
nick i don't wanna talk to you.
look i don't wanna talk, i wanna talk to paul.
paul.
word up.
give me nick.
hello.
you coming then?
right.
latest.
bye .
i need a coke.
no, eh eh,, eh !
then you'll have to buy some more.
no!
but i, i think that 
what d'ya think i'm gonna drink down the park?
i'm gonna be bloody thirsty aren't i?
you're not gonna learn anything down there.
no.
it used to be a bloody do-it-yourself shop!
mm.
oh !
that's it, by the .
all sorts of many stuff in there!
lovely shop in there!
oh oh!
this is one.
he's in that car too!
they're a bloody pest these kids!
bikes are dangerous things aren't they?
mm.
but no, nothing wrong with a bike.
it's the one that is riding it's a the danger is!
yeah, well that's it!
they whip 
mm.
in and out and in and out, till 
mm.
you don't know where they are!
in, in holland when we were there motor cars were not allowed on the roads!
it was all push bikes!
mm.
the main street, you know?
course, there was a at the far end of the street, a a red long, long street it was!
very long!
there was factories on it and of course the workers keep coming in and out.
look at the potatoes over there!
mm.
under plastic.
look at these!
countryside what?
cheatering putting a new label up!
mm.
ahh oh god, there's scaffolding all around here now!
mm.
they've put the glass in that.
i wonder, perhaps it will be a little glass house?
i'd say the band , but there isn't room in it!
for the band to sit is there?
not really.
hello david!
hello!
no, it's just somewhere to sit in and look out at the en , er the ships and boats going by.
it's like a shelter.
unless they mean to have a marina here are they?
there's a marina down in the docks!
oh, i see.
well perhaps they're going to have races or something if the
mm.
the couldn't be wider .
the 
mm.
water wouldn't be wide enough.
mm.
very strange!
what shops are they?
aha.
well this blue van is parry and blockwell the garage!
this digging was here.
mm.
weren't it?
well i'd have thought i dunno!
by the church.
yeah.
mm.
yes it was, wasn't it?
go down the bottom of the street.
yeah.
hoh ell!
let's go home!
is there internationals on today?
no idea!
football?
no idea!
it's friday today.
i know.
it's football, as a rule, on a friday innit?
oh it's friday!
i keep thinking it's saturday!
no, there's is there?
she's umbrella !
trying to hold it together !
oh !
a lot of houses for sale!isn't there?
yes i've er that's what makes me wonder and they're they talk about building more!
the chances are we won't be going!
they're building more for council houses.
council tenants.
homeless families.
well they could buy some of these and turn these into council houses or flats or something like that.
well they could, but they won't!
cos the people want too much for them!
anything going on up here?
no, i don't think
yep all looks quiet.
bet that's getting damp!
and it seems to be in a hole don't it?
it's down it's below the road as 
yes.
well!
yeah.
i bet he's sorry he .
i bet he's sorry he started them!
then he got his money in the bank, he was getting interest on it!
yeah.
and now deteriorating!
that's right.
be nice when you'll be able to go and pick your own strawberries again!
ah?
be nice when you can go and pick your own strawberries again!
these daffs ave come out.
yeah.
mm ahhh 
i think it's going to be a wet afternoon.
it's sleety ooking on the window look!
so i 
you watch the rain hitting the windows, it's like sleet!
yeah , i think they said that er you know be today.
yeah!
is that snow on the mountains?
didn't see it.
looked a bit white, it might be polythene.
no.
can't see a mountain from here, we're on the top!
oh !
oh i see!
we ought to have bought some knitting wool.
ay 
we ought to have bought some knitting wool.
and done something.
well never mind, you got trousers to shorten.
and that .
well you might as well do it and press the two together.
two together.
ey ou got two to shorten now!
oh god!
sally says that cardigan that i knit , that black one, she said tha i , it's lovely to wear she said!
it's heavy!
and it doesn't stretch and it er er er it looks, it feels good she says!
aha!
what's that one?
you know that black one?
she wore it 
oh yes.
with those black trousers?
oh that cottony thing?
the cotton.
mm.
it's lovely stuff to wear!
i said how much is it?
one eighty a ball she said!
oh!
i said i was thinking of making a waistcoat or something out of one.
and she said it doesn't go bubbly.
the only, if anything it might shrink a little.
oh!
not much.
but you'd have to hand wash it?
yeah.
does she ?
she boils hers and all!
all the white one.
oh!
yeah but er
bleaches them and all!
does she hand wash her woollies?
yeah.
so i might make a waistcoat.
a white one.
mm.
for the summer.
does it go very far?
no, it doesn't.
not too far, but it's not bad!
mm.
look at him strutting along!
is the wind blowing in do you think?
blowing him along maybe!
look at these houses!
oh!
they've let that .
that's nice that one.
yeah.
nice and plain.
they're nice lit , little plain one like that gives you plenty of scope for a creeper up the wall don't they?
i can't stand creepers on the walls!
i'm afraid it brings the caterpillars in!
oh no they don't!
i dunno.
that's why i can't do it.
but some do.
it all depends on the variety and the
there's house, we've just passed it now on the and it's er a montana clematis.
oh ey 
well it's at , it's all in the bloody attic!
it's everywhere!
oh god, i couldn't have it!
gives me the creeps!
that's what i'd be scared of otherwise i'd put one.
that's it!
do you want it or not?
mhm.
mm mm mm mm .
mm mm mm mm mm mm mm .
ooh!
now it's starting.
come in the afternoon.
oh oh!
and they'll be looking for not for me 
i don't expect!
ooh that's better!
get in the corner !
watch your wires!
go on!
come on!
right.
that's it!
the er here.
do you think we're gonna have snow?
i hope not!
i'll tell you.
not, then yeah..
i told you 
.
oh i don't know!
i don't know!
how much?
twenty.
you've had the two.
i think, yep.
lovely!
ta 
so what they gonna build behind you, another garage?
is it?
mhm.
be alright won't it?
oh yeah, it's a big .
could be you extending?other shop do you think?
it's all we know.
what shop's down there?
it's all the same one at the back.
yeah but how many, how many times has it been a shop?
you don't seem to ge , er often does it?
no .
yeah.
tell you what'll end up there 
so you wanna extend this back, this is in the right place this!
yeah.
cos it people come off the sites or go to the corner shop, don't cross the road.
yeah, if that was where that garage is and all of this was clear it'd be great wouldn't it!
yeah, you'd have your pull in as well!
.
go on think about it!
ooh, you never give up !
well this is it?
of the 
oh the the car people, it used to be!
we've already got 
oh!
a garage down the end there.
if it was you see, they'd be quick enough coming to tell you!
ey right tara thanks!
snotty, drizzly, runny noses!
the parents' fault!
everything he asked me to.
he'll always, always, always do that!
where does he get it from?
you!
no !
always!
it's because you said to me!
well i'll .
cos i says, when they do, you better have all the bloody jokes about that!
no!
there's big guys 
in rugby.
it's there when i put
put some and some fingers
mm?
i just wish you hadn't got the glasses .
it's for people
is it to eat 
as well.
yeah, i'm gonna, i'm gonna be 
well you won't have bloody !
no!
but i don't go round do i?
running round, bumming round .
ah?..
who me?
mm.
i can't really sit them together, they're not relations!
i've got fishing tomorrow.
i reckon it's not worth worrying about!
let's just leave that for now!
you're right!
i know.
change it round then she won't come next time!
that's right.
gonna like it!
you look more natural.
, cos we thought about getting a .
.we'll just be , be about open.
well, didn't you tell them we're going out tonight separately and then there's the 
well the thing is 
whatever they do to it now it's going to last for 
two years.
two years innit?
i dunno cos it's had a new exhaust on it.
and a new battery!
god bless.
who has?
i think 
new brakes!
she's tired!
two, three new tyres on.
two new cy , cylinder!
you can look after it now!
i wa , i'm gonna pick him up!
and not, come here!
if i get it through 
the m o t next february .
here!
take that .
so that's just something .
you've had your money's worth out of the new stuff 
well that's right!
then!
yeah.
grandfather clock.
more colder is it?
that one.
that one?
ding that'd get on 
my nerves every day!
how many is it?
knives and forks.
it's not long enough!
out here, in a minute.
give them to me!
yeah well only talk about fishing, you see?
i'm gonna be fishing all around the boat!
no, not for long.
but i got a good one!
i've been getting getting out fish.
don't you can catch fish 
well i'm gonna wait for while!
i'm afraid i'm gonna wait until it , cos you gotta wait for all of the salmon to come up river.
rubbish!
rubbish!
because
if you catch a trout you should catch it before 
not with flies!
he's catching trout and he's 
no, i'm fly fishing!
catching salmon now!
no way !
no!
there's a there's all that fish 
so you like fishing?
especially fresh water.
yeah!
gotta go up the river as well!
well where did he caught the fish?
down the bottom by liam's, that's where he caught them!
down river, or was it up the river?
it's a river!
you can't fly fish here!
yes 
i 
you can!
there's the bridges!
i said, well he said, it's two bridges.
two bridges.
there's a road, you can't cross them!
the bridge here with another on?
how long is it ?
where he goes fishing, it's, the bridge is up 
not me!
no 
she was that !
i only do fly fishing!
as a rule.
ah jack does!
you ought to see it!
see the fish 
that we catch!
carp for cooking.
aspic's .
i don't .
going down the right?, five years old down the river was the first time ever but just have to wait for him!
oh!
two two traps .
get your hands off it!
no!
ricky!
come on!
granddad's , are you gonna eat it?
yeah.
yeah.
yes indeed!
do you want me to fetch those ?
i go fly fishing.
you'll love fly fishing!
you wanna see it!
when you gonna take me then?
you cast out you see them you see that fish!
and your lines and then you tease it!.
teasing it?
i'll do it twice, and then tease it!
same to you!
i was talking about the club and and that she was there!
then fishing you know,..
?
i don't know what it was?
this is bermondsey 
no.
just take the cover.
one of the lads had nicked it started cooking it!
so scott !
.
dad!
scott and 
end up with bait!
bloody eating it!
scott and , they caught a squid in scotland for bait now!
that's 
yeah.
and then his mum goes, what's that in the fridge?
i said squid.
get it out of here!
oh is it?
i've tried brains.
oh,my dad 
yeah we heard that other .
i got more chance of catching a fish now cos we're going saturday and sunday!
that's good and it's a what was this name?
she were you know, shaped in rings!
and she eat she eat it!
that's !
!
well it is only i've eat it!
oh!
no!
they weren't big enough.
dad, did you get that t v from comet?
the town comet?
shall we 
you want all yo , all your stuff from ben in the
bag.
i put all .
.
oh!
excuse me, don't say no!
it's like being in switzerland, you pay your brother's !
you've had warm weather out here.
it needs to come down here.
i'll drop it down 
a peg.
on one television so they're forty eight years old and they've never been .
i would want to save one now.
i like it.
it's definitely don't 
did ricky do this?
it's just that er
she's been in .
special offer on sunday.
is a three or four 
each 
yeah.
yeah.
and a hundred and fifty to cost .
even after he comes in.
come in!
fourteen forty 
no!
no!
fourteen inch television, one in each room!
excuse me!
they won't !
that's slightly .
one hundred and eighty five?
yeah one eighty five i paid seven hundred and twenty five pound!
is that ?
seven hundred and twenty five
it was my plan to get one though.
but, it's er it's 
it's a marvellous thing!
they are !
yeah, but that's , mine had some
and now they're telling you, you got the video aren't they?
and they'll give you a one year warrantee .
and then granddad's got any videos,.
.
it's to buy that picture a thou a thousand pounds!
that's what 
rude, innit?
.
if you got .
and !
what?
erm, derek said , and derek said that erm that he now hoping you'd go down and stay when they get naughty pictures!
yeah,!
!
but the thing is, if you fall out of bed you ain't gonna sleep!
cos they their trouble that i i and away!
they says, well i here we go, on the chair count to ten!
divide by the number of that's not .
that could be .
it's very full now!.
you count that.
it's still going.
just don't change it !
don't say nothing about it!
yes.
all your deck chairs..
.
for running people's ?
yeah.
yeah!
oh yeah!
well but i don't see why!
just cos 
well hayden says to me, if you go either give me a ring, he said, and i .
yeah, we'll have to do some work 
out .
which is the or the fourteen inch television colour telly i know because, the blokes let us down!
no, hayden says if we go to comet cos he said, cos i said i bought my video at comet and they were offering twenty five per cent off , twenty five per cent off off the at comet so that's about the third of the place .
oh!
so he didn't ,
you get twenty five percent off.
we had fifty percent off the price you see!total.
yeah.
what about after sales service?
who comet?
well i asked comet fridge!
, that's what she means!
comet do it.
well they're .
i mean when i had we got c d serviced.
and don 
and i 
come and said sixty pound!
no, but it be beneficial if it's comet and the receipt came back for our insurance from comet erm 
dixons!
they're all, they're all same,
they're all the same.
comet and 
yes.
it's all owned by kingfisher.
kingfisher.
because if we bought the fridge and the at comet and collected the receipts back on the insurance .
he said they're all the same.
they're owned by kingfisher ,.
we we bought this fridge from comet to keep the insurance 
i was oh it's still working, yes.
and he says that 
well at least it's pounds off .
yeah, well mum's telly eleven .
and they said to her now, not to insure it .
when it's gone, it's now .
.
i tell you what you .
it's something like a 
how much did it cost last time?
i'm them over.
paul's mother's flipping well angry!
last time he that's my .
why does ?
he, he might say to me you can't use .
that's a load of nonsense!
but i said to them,take that cheque .
oh fucking hell !
.because mum's territory is there you got a few people complained!
and it's .
and sure it was .
it's like i've got nothing to do!
the .
it's all downstairs.
we've asked them to try.
they're here to celebrate the .
how long till you're back in your now then mum?
you want to be sure of
comet.
ask where's my dealer?
where's the 
after sales service come from?
oh, especially with a .
mm.
why didn't he give you some hotpoints?
but who'd buy it then?
that's where i've gotta go, yeah.
no you, you go down , off and she said you can full holidays arranged daily, and we came that was on the tuesday, the wednesday i had to phone them, done on friday!
and they'll 
.
that erm
i'll never know!
.
i don't want that!
oh yeah!
that's 
yeah, and that's nice!
claimed about half of it.
never heard of it!
oh i know 
anytime 
she might have been .
or round?
yeah.
on the monday.
it takes four 
ah?
or five .
you can look!
mm.
hard cash!
that one's a daisy!
innit beautiful!
if you've got a t v remote control things once he'd said that he'd .
so you're lucky!, at least you know.
cos there's one problem that if you tape a programme .
mm.
and all i remember is the then afterward .
well that's
you can't ask 
i suppose?
yeah.
yeah.
and it's three 
and they want 
forty the video innit?
we could've had a two forty video tape, it said, two forty on it and when we put it in weren't it?.
said two forty on it, didn't it?
two forty box!
oh i shall .
you can buy one video from here.
oh well 
how much does that cost?
only one eighty.
how much did that cost ?
he just, he just 
i do , you put it in the big shop didn't you?
i put it in, okay
, over er the pub at the end.
you put it in, you don't go onto, you don't pay .
well we got so phillips on the, on the sheet and er they're all .
they're he got all the videos from the states,in the states.
sent over all these blooming instructions for the video was all i needed!
and the american system
from argentina
and er just you got the switch?
yeah, you got the 
no.
switch here.
but his accommodation over there.
unless you .
is that out there?
she's coming back in the .
cos she just took them off and then and now now she owes me something posh.
and now .
so where do you get your television teletext then?
all in the remote control for the lot!.
we were looking at the and not teletext.
which is the smaller any more.
no!
not the one we looked at .
well mine and nana's isn't teletext.
they're not all teletext?
no , course they're not!
well it just shows 
the brand new ones.
twenty, twenty one inch 
and not all of them with this.
you can do it?
are they
about
about three.
what?
oh!
all you do turn on the thing
no, you let him show me alright?
no just show
yeah, alright then i won't move yet 
where do i keep 
mm.
but he does to me!
oh right!
mm.
well i'm 
yes.
put down .
do you have to ?
yeah, well ah but i walked through u
can he go out?
oh yeah.
he's going now!
right!
before it be, be uncomfortable 
will it?
for him.
but i'm inclined to 
yeah.
get a general impression right, cos 
yes.
i'm finding something totally wrong with and got shot of it and then things have been 
well actually he didn't, but he says 
worse thinking he'd been to solicitors but i'm trying to track down anybody!
just trying to get some information.
apparently oh my god tha they're that much within the law.
yeah, that's what we've been told.
they must have a legal section cos this is one of the biggest organisations,leisure group in britain
yeah.
for caravans.
they, they, they,they own 
they're going to clear themselves aren't they?
you clear you!
more than that!
apparently
they're not going to
one man told me, he said 
well if you think you might get some money at the end of the season, he said, you may find that you'll be paying them at the end of the season!
i mean, what's the good of it?
yeah, you see!
well we may as well have got that money and thrown it down the toilet!
gone straight in the bin!
well that's right!
straight away this year, you get a list through now, do you want winter cleaning done, curtains cleaned,
yeah.
carpets cleaned, upholstery cleaned?
or outside valet, do you want the underneath painted with grease and everything?
i say we did have it done.
by the time you add all that up if you're not local.
all your profit's gone!
you'll you will end up paying them!
yeah.
yes.
and then we paid for a winter clean.
and it's filthy!
mm.
i had to go down there twice 
to get it done!
okay?
because the windows were filthy!
twice, that we argued .
well, well you came here didn't you when the curtains hadn't been
jump down then phillip!
and when i spoke to mr , i said well if i was renting a caravan and went to see it and it was dirty like that, i wouldn't want to take it on!
and, i said surely you have somebody who goes round and checks them before they're let?
no, he said!
so what they do is, apparently they wait for somebody to complain
yeah.
and then they look at the caravan!
do they?
that's somebody who comes up to rent it!
so i said and in that case then probably you move them into another caravan?
oh no, we clean it and they go into it!
i said, you mean to say people wait around while you clean the caravan?
i don't believe it!
you're alright , you're alright for your holiday, find a caravan dirty, you've gotta complain before it gets cleaned!
ha!
people will !
they can complain to the tourist board.
to be done when he was he.
should be bloody licensed!
you can did you say?
you can.
you can't!
well i shouldn't think so because 
mum!
they're not gonna want to know!
they don't belong there.
yeah.
and you can't complain to th , the chamber of commerce because if they show this up too much 
temby's gonna lose a lot of trade!
i don't want 
yeah.
mm.
i mean 
they have their, their 
i said to him we've been conned!
i said we've been stitched up!
that's how i look at it!
i was furious last week!
mm, so i ju , i was just trying to find, but you see, there again you're new people, we found new people last week didn't we.
yeah.
he wasn't happy that man.
he bought a big caravan, he was very unhappy!
there we are!
the way they do 
no, but these caravans
should you carry on?
i don't know, is it here or over there?.
so you see, this is only way you can them!
get to a situation where you've had a caravan before and to make any money to pay, you've then got to buy another caravan to subsidise that one and you seem to be it's sort of 
like a chain all time.
mm.
yeah.
and the profit you've had from one is paying the expense of the other!
tha , if you're lucky!
mm.
yeah.
i mean we heard some horrendous stories last week, walking round didn't we?
yeah, we did.
cor talk about make your curl!
dreadful!
mm.
so as i say, but i'm just resigned to it!
so what would you have to do now then?
take your caravan off?
we can't!
not allowed to move it!
we co , i mean, what do you do?
you lose the money you've paid for the site!
cos you can't take the site!
paid for the site!
plus the value of a brand new caravan!, they check!
a lot of people buy these on !
mm.
just pay cash 
mum!
for them.
what darling?
in the end we're gonna out.
can we ?
we feel
mm?
we're gonna lose 
not only any money that we get back on it, but we lose the letting 
money
mm.
we lose the investment!
yeah.
yeah.
mm.
we lose the
mm.
out of the capital!
you see?
that's not a business venture!
well it is for them!
that's right!
for them it is , yeah it's a good one for them!
they're too big to fight, that's the trouble isn't it?
are they?
that's what everybody says!
i see, i'm, i can't accept that, there's gotta be a way 
no!
round it!
no, i'm afraid not!
i mean i don't care!
i've, i've threatened him!
i will be outside with a placard!
do not buy a caravan on field park!
i've threatened him, that's what i'm going to do!
of the er erm .
i've seen it done last week,.
throw a brick through his windows!
there's been nothing done!
i'd love to do it to him!
well i've got to .
hang on!
we don't know what that .
pain!
alright!
, was you was down here when i washed the caravan?
no.
no, it was dark haired boy.
was it?
i know about your microwave.
ha?
i know about your microwave.
i used 
what?
i used to know your husband,.
yeah?
.
was he pissed?
yeah.
what it 
see what 
is now when i drop this one round i'll tell you about then.
yes.
okay?
er
will we have hot water?
well
don't say no, cos i'm going home!
er
you can what it is, there's new laws 
that's right.
coming out now, it's no , nothing to do with us.
there shouldn't be any water heaters in bathrooms, okay?
right?
now we're gonna get it moved okay?
you can use it, but it's at your own risk, alright?
oh that's 
well that's too 
oh my god now !
well what what happened?
what are we 
sure's gonna happen as far as ?
well what it is you've used it all last year haven't you?
right?
all you wanna to do is the ventilation on it.
do you?
okay?
er
oh .
all, all our vans now are are to be re-flued.
yeah.
are you with me?
yeah, cos we saw one in that 
oh that's right.
kitchen .
that's right.
but what it is er they've been like that for years, like, in the bathrooms 
to daddy.
and all!
you know, i mean all it is like i say, it's i'd use it, put it that way.
right 
yeah.
i'd use it.
er, i would not have worries about it.
but if something went wrong then do you ?
well all i do 
come on!
well i suppose it could be done.
it would?
well all it is,
is er the fumes 
mum!
given off from it.
are you with me?
yeah.
like say, if you were in there like and you've got a closed door
mummy,
there could be a build of fumes.
when we going?
do you see what i mean?
yeah.
you know, that, that's the only thing er 
alright.
what it's about, like.
yeah.
you know?
it's not dangerous or anything, like, it's not gonna blow up or anything like that!
it's just a carbon monoxide
yeah but as far as it's sa 
enough to kill you!
yeah, but as far as it's b s standards go, if it's not b s standard approved 
no.
that's the insurance on the 
no, well 
boiler.
that's right.
yeah.
so then 
are you telling me that these people are renting this place out?
no, you can't rent it out until it's done you see?
so when was that when was that done?
this week.
we come in in here last week!
people were here last week then?
well i don't know that.
who, who put them in there?
town park?
yeah.
who's the, who's, who's, who's 
the boss up here today?
yes, old age pensioners they were!
i don't believe they were mind!
because the 
i don't think there was anyone in here this week!
still on the .
i don't think there was anyone in here 
should be here.
this week!
two people.
who's, who's, who, who's, who's the boss today up there?
well you wanna see er david .
david ?
yeah.
and he's there now is he?
yeah.
okay.
have a word with him.
but that's what it is.
i can't help with nothing else .
well that
said erm supposed to use it like, yeah.
as far as the leg , as far as getting the the flue sorted out in this, how long do you reckon it'll take?
what do you say now?
er
i know what!
well, like i said, one of his contractors are going out to , like.
yeah.
that's why i like to know how when they're gonna do it like.
so this caravan can't be rented out until it's sorted out, like?
that's right.
yeah.
and you don't know how long it's gonna be?
er i don't.
i don't know how long 
it's gonna be, you know what i mean, i just 
so who covers the loss on the caravan and on the rental?
that's not my
so it's dave again?
that's not my place!
listen, you could
he's the general manager, like.
yeah that's
debbie should of come down .
yeah.
but er that's, that's the reason for it like, you know?
well why what did you say then?
we came down to wash the caravan 
yes.
yeah.
and on the windows was the had all been serviced.
yeah.
and that blue thing now has gone on since!
tha , with red signs of all, across it!
yeah oh.
well they're doing them all now, for service 
now, we were washing 
you know?
washing the caravan on the sunday
yeah.
and people were to come in here on the tuesday.
oh, well i i thought, i don't know .
a bus load er a four, three or four bus loads from
lancashire somewhere.
lancashire or north of england somewhere.
saying there was, what say?
bus loads?
three or four bus three or four bus loads of .
old age pensioners!
pensioners!
last week?
so they said!
that's what they told us!
cos i said there's no way i'd sleep in it myself!
cos it was too damp!
well we never had any last week!
well somebody said it .
i i i might, i might be wrong 
like!
you know .
well that's what they said!
i never see !
you'll see a bus up there won't you?
cos i'll .
we're learning 
are you , are you sure it was this week, it was supposed to be?
no , not next week?
last week, cos i had to get it all!
i had to have the bedding in here.
mum , can i ?
you see the, the boy 
i mean 
that, that just got out?
yeah.
he, it's his weeks holiday and he was going to come down 
yeah.
here for the week.
yeah.
now, there's no water here!
yeah.
well, no hot water !
well that's what they told us,
yeah.
and that's why we've
well that's like i say, with the 
we must have the caravan finished!
the thermostat.
yeah, like i said with the actual water heater there, it's been, there's been water heaters in caravans like that for years!
when we to 
you know what i mean?
we only had this at the end of the 
yeah.
summer.
and we've had trouble with it 
yeah.
all the time!
yeah.
but er like i said, the fluing part of it, is, is out of our hands.
it's not 
yeah.
it's not us who's put that on.
yeah.
you know what i mean?
the what, pardon?
the actual water heater, the re-flueing of it.
oh!
oh!
you know, the, the
the gas people.
it's yeah the gas council and all, like, these new bloody laws they've bought in like!
that's right.
mm.
that's why you can see they've all had them
yeah.
they've had to extend the pipes all this and that like, you know?
yeah.
but it's down to be getting moved.
you know what i mean?
but that's all it is, because it's in a confined space and with a shower going they're worried about fumes and all like, you know, the carbon monoxide, like, you know?
mm.
yeah.
but er put it this way, i've been on courses, like i wouldn't i use it.
you know what i mean?
mm.
cos er like i say, if i'd had a window open or so you know what i mean?
that's right..
and all if it's a little nippy you .
is it?
but i said, that they've been in bathrooms for years like!
you know they and smaller bathrooms than that like!
oh, well i don't know what to do!
but like i said, it it's just, it's gonna get moved like, no cost to you like, you know what i mean?
it's er 
yeah.
but an advantage to them!
is that what you mean?
but if something went wrong then, this caravan was burnt that's the end of it!
they might just take those down.
well i , cos the co , the insurance wouldn't cover it?
cos they have got these records will have these records.
no, you'll have a certificate then, and all, saying that the caravan covered, it'll be tested every year then.
so it isn't going to be used this week?
but, no
you know?
not this week.
no, not this week.
so we shall lose our insurance?
like that, yeah.
innit?
see that man and woman that , yeah?
did you see these people in there?
what people?
a man and a woman.
there was two people sitting there.
they've just gone out.
no.
after you came.
well they've, they bought a a caravan down here, a brand new one!
yeah.
and they bought it last summer and they've had trouble ever since!
and they're going around asking people what !
what's up with their's then?
well they've had to move the caravan !
it was dirty and damp and !
they're going round the caravans .
ay 
he hasn't come .
oh!
here ricky!
yeah.
i'd like one of your crisps.
any one would think that you were tired all day!
now we .
and you weren't told there was gonna be ?
no.
what the hell are they talking about?
nothing!
we knew that they were testing them, and checking it over and bringing it up to standard, but we didn't know anything about it other than that!
only .
you take one, that's your one.
lovely!
well it wasn't me anyway, i don't know!
oh mark'll be fuming that's for sure!
can he do ?
no.
but what's in it for me?
.ooh ooh!
how do you do it??
alright?
yeah.
well i don't know what to do now?
i'll tell you what to do.
do you?
here without a damn thing, you can't use it can you?
what do you think?
you know?
they never asked me 
if they could or the flue in so it's 
that's right, say it like that!
never been repaired.
neglecting the .
well having said, what, what is it all about?
it's because the no, no water heater should be in the bathrooms!
so where's that gonna go then?
well it must either go in the kitchen or in the cupboard somewhere, but you know?
that's what they've er put it to.
what you said to me.
oh yeah.
oh well we'll have to move won't we?
yeah.
it's working, like gas-wise, like i say, it is it's virtually, it's just the ventilation clearing out the the fumes which are given 
mm.
off from it.
do you see what i mean?
well it is isn't there a, there's a chimney above there isn't there?
yeah.
that's right, yeah, but but now like i said, you're gonna have to , to have your certain pipes.
like, have you seen them all going round?
they got long poles on the back step.
will it'll be longer than that ?
no cos they haven't done this one because it shouldn't be in here!
even in the fire?
yeah.
right.
yeah, i mean, it shouldn't be in here, like, that's why they haven't that's why they've put it there.
that's why they hung on the to the shipment cos these aren't supposed to be in the bathrooms.
right.
you know what i mean.
you know?
the 
alright 
i think there'll be a lot of people who won't move off to be honest!
they won't do?
, cos they won't er go to the cost of them.
but, like i say, we're covering that, like.
you know what i mean?
hoh 
he's bloody !
he didn't know.
he doesn't know, he's the only one i can think of.
he , he's, he's not in a position to say whether he knows or not.
he says he doesn't know!
oh!
no, well i 
it's nothing to do with him!
it's not his department.
but he said there is a gang going round, and some are putting the chimneys on and the others are going in and doing the flues.
and he said, it looks as though they've put the chimney on and found that the flue is the ba the boiler's in the bathroom, so they've had to come down here.
said because it shouldn't have a chimney on it!
but he said, i don't know it's no , nothing to do with me!
it's the 
no.
bri it's the british gas that's doing it!
oh well that's right he's gotta blame somebody!
but he said, i would do it because i know, i've worked for the gas board!
mm.
i would know how to handle it.
i said, well there's one thing certain, i can't!
perhaps , pay good money for it!
you said somebody wanted to know about .
mum!
no, it, it,
mum!
and she's going round, she's gonna try and take them to court!
so she should!
it's bis , i think they mean business people!
.and she's going she got out papers and pencil!
taking names and addresses who'll back her up!
mum,.
you could see through the window.
and the rain comes 
in when you open the door!
blimey!
and she said and he said, well they told didn't they?
got three bus loads, three or four bus loads of people!
yes of old age pensioners coming down!
she said , they hadn't!
she said!
and they're in 
we haven't had anybody have we?
mum, will daddy be here?
why doesn't daddy come?
granddad.
he'll bloody come next week.
next time.
why?
cos i'll make him!
we let him out .
no, i've been meaning to.
come on mark!
see you later!
mark'll go bananas i expect!
well now how long have they known you were going to rent a caravan?
well it's been booked for three or four weeks hasn't it?
ooh , more than that!
on the bed.
i was taking a long time!
what?
they're supposed to 
ha!
ha!
to pay people to come and clean the caravan out at the weekend.
no, i mean this flue thing should of been .
the caravan's been cleaned!
well you says they hadn't even washed the curtains!
i'll leave it till next week.
what?
i'll leave it till next week!
you said they hadn't washed the curtains!
they're not washing the curtains, they're putting new ones in!
yes, well that's their er stipulations and that's what they're supposed to do once a year!
it hasn't been done has it?
no, they're not!
danny's paid for new curtains to go up!
yes, i know!
but they haven't done it!
mum!
no!
so that's another twenty, thirty, forty, fifty pound in their pocket!
no, cos they're doing it!
will you shut up and wait!
why?
that's why!
was closed?
yes yes, they're not opening till next week are they?
next week, is it warmer?
mum !
you've just had !
so next time you come down it will be open and then you'll be able to go.
oh, poor dolly!
what can i do first?
i think ours and all will be going home.
going home minute of the day!
no i bloody haven't!
i kept the !
and that woman!!
i went out to check the date on the and to turn the place over.
gees i was shocked!
brand new!
she owned it!
mm, yeah she had a with her!
and i couldn't wait you see.
well i'd have had it all on tape!
have you gotta ?
have you?
no, you'll have to get in touch.
i'll just pack things all up shall i?
ha?
what about these !
diamonds 
what are they?
rubies, no, and pearls 
emeralds are they?
emeralds there!
yeah, and a ruby on the other!
you found the good bit !
mm.
well wait and see what er mark has got to say.
mm .
laying properly.
aha?
no.
let danny do it.
that's them gone!
what's ?
was that them?
i don't know!
no it wasn't.
some
who 
no 
was it?
.
so what did she say to you when she went?
she said .
this woman and man.
oh she said we'll make enquiries she said.
she was going on about the grass they've left on the
do you think i could leave it just there?
but she was in a frenzy you could see that!
yeah, she was a bit!
she's looking for somebody to back her up!
mm.
and that's why i cannot get involved.
but we're gonna do it and she says she hadn't as yet!
that's what she said.
mm.
.
i don't think she said she's doing extra!
she says you'll have the bill for this!
yeah.
a man just stated it!
that we're taking responsibility we'll be moving out!
we won't get paid for it!
we wanted to charge them!
i don't know anything them see.
it might be that they're in under promotions team.
their only parking!
i see us having to 
perhaps 
last year.
perhaps erm perhaps they're only parking their caravan on the .
and only letting it to friends and i suggest 
mm.
their grandson.
but er somebody was in and left it all filthy and mouldy and what for!
oh!
yes?
had the cleaner gone in it?
i don't know .
i don't think so, no.
how?
because er, i've seen it and dirty and that.
and they're bloody cooker's filthy!
it's true!
i have seen it.
i don't think it's really clean, and they charge you for it!
of course they do!
they're out to get all they can out of them!
mm.
as he says it, it's the biggest holiday 
and 
company in britain and he said er, they just keep under their 
yeah.
legal limit!
he said.
you can't get them to admit that.
and, and they'll keep all the profits that they can!
they're not gonna let you get away with a lot!
you know, such as new curtains!
they try to bother them.
and i dare say, like these he said they they've paid for their caravan, cash!
so that's close to ten thousand pounds!
and they thought it was an investment!
where as now they 
find it had been better for them to have left their in the bank!
didn't say it so many words, but that's what he meant!
and an investment on ten thousand's about twenty pound a week!
so it's a lot of money to , i would think.
perhaps he can
she said thought, she'll only only let it out about six or eight times through the year!
well they haven't got total control over letting it!
.
no.
perhaps they'll go.
mark is making his will isn't he?
ah a good !
oh she's left her dolly in there!
ooh god, sally was taking her out!
who's key are all those?
dunno,.
i dunno!
oh, she's, she coming back, look, there's her book and her pencil.
mark.
well sally was right anyway.
this is the caravan here.
sally will take it off, mark's .
i don't know what this is.
oh!
i know she bought any there's her roller skates!
oh yeah.
oh well, i'm off!
i know, he was going into the office!
why?
i can't find he's not in there in reception?
perhaps he's gone to shops?
i don't know which way he's gone then.
what's surname?
erm no.
?
dunno!
perhaps you ought to look for a phoney.
in the phone book see if there's any there?
i dunno!
then we can ring them, see what happens.
when we get home then.
yes.
but what if 
oh look!
silly isn't he!
what about her doll and things?
i'll bring everything home if i'm going home.
tara 
she said they're getting money for nothing!
hey?
!
now we'll go and find mum.
mm.
i can't remember, the man he said .
keep it on 
ooh!
enough will be used at from it.
oh!and all do you think?
what kind is it?
a recording?
yeah, a walkman.
it's recording everything.
you put the headphones on and you can listen to your choir!
which is far easier than the one you were using.
mm.
oh, you put one of them in!
well it's going round like hell, any how!
well yeah, it's taping your voice!
oh!
oh, i hope it heard something nice !
yes, well they're listening for slang !
oh!
oh my god!
i said to her check the phone boxes and penny's in there phoning danny and , and bloody lorna!
mm.
i re , i er i co , heard sally
and down there 
counting 
phoning them.
but i didn't know who it was and i thought, god, has danny arrived!
he does sound, that woman!
can't understand her!
oh yes 
she's out!
i can!
she's in piling a bloody list!
yeah, i'm, i, i can't 
and she's got it down where do 
i can't 
you come from?
your name?
i thought when i was looking at her talking and i thought, you're a school mistress.
i wouldn't say that, i'd have said , she's a landlady.
and this is extra.
oh i would have said she was a school mistress.
and her her bed and breakfast is 
was a school mistress!
bed and breakfast is er paying keeping this caravan.
no, i would say that they were 
and it's not 
retired and he's had a good job in his time.
and, and this was a little 
well i feel he's 
but i said 
to him.
no.
i said to him er that er it was an extra and he said that was the object of it.
helps the pension.
you know?
he didn't say it in so many words, but
mm.
it was an investment, that's what i said.
mm.
he said yes.
so i shouldn't be surprised, they're both retired and, and er pension.
she said they've had they've had a couple of days out here trekking, trying to catch people!
their pension is their pension and their bit of income keeps them, and that's all sort of thing, in a little bit of luxury.
he she's looking for tenants!
no.
how, i did you find it clean?
mm.
you know, are you happy with er arrangements 
then?
what did you think of cleanliness and
oh well of course that 
and then perhaps she'll take their names and addresses!
yes.
and the date see, mrs so and so was in that caravan on such and such date!
if ever it came to court!
cos he said somebody's got to bring them down!
mm.
and he said, we're disgusted with our caravan!
yes.
well of course, that might be a private !
well that's what i would say about this if this was new i wouldn't let people go in!
theirs might be a private caravan on the site, and le , like jackie's.
and letting it as private.
see, jackie won't let anybody in her caravan.
but she said they've let it to people and they've just wrecked the inside of it!
everything she said!
it's a total mess!
and it's a brand new last july we've had it, she said!
mm.
and it's filthy !
mm.
and she said that everything was mouldy in er you know the even the curtains were mildew!
and how did she put salt round?
because this is a hell of a lot damper today than what it was when i had the salt about you.
you but er some people 
course not!
yes.
well i'd never heard of salt being put down before!
but she yes, she told me that in all, in the shop.
in the reception.
she said, put it 
yeah, well 
down.
yeah, these might tell you but i always heard that salt was damp!
yeah but it attracts the 
the 
water in 
the 
the air, into the salt!
and of course, once it's in the salt, it's steams!
well it's only now it feels like this!
it was not like this when we were down here washing it.
well that's common sense when you think about it isn't it?
you put, you put a drop of water on it you put er a bowl of salt and that will go down eventually!
mm.
if the air is damp.
it's collected the water .
once that's damp, that's rising the steam!
so how else do you keep it dry?
she said, straight to me now!
i said that caravan is soaking wet, i said!
the mattresses!
mm.
and she said er well it does take time for them to dry out doesn't it, she said?
but i, there was people in it last week!
yes i know, she said!
well if she's covering
i said well there's no way i 
she is paid to cover the boss!
there's no way i'd of slept in it, i said and not i wouldn't of done it!
let alone, old age pensioners, i said!
and you know we've been to a few caravans
go in that end bedroom and feel the bed!
that feel a bit, caravans that we used to go to were like this chalet.
the chalets we used to go to mrs er i can't remember her name now!
but her boys used to run steam roller outside middle house and i used to take them in.
she used to see that the beds were aired.
she did see to them!
she put oil heaters in the caravan and she kept the the mattresses in her bungalow!
she'd only got about eight caravans then.
and then we went in and had a caravan somewhere up by aberystwyth, ginnie and me, and you kids.
that was an old farmer's caravan weren't 
yes.
it?
but it wasn't too, that was too damp to sleep on!
who won the bloody war,roof up weren't it !
there wasn't, there wasn't a cup and saucer each!
remember?
mm.
and these are no better!
i mean, caravans are caravans, call them what you like!
only one saucepan we had!
and it was stew everyday if we didn't go out for dinner!
ah!
and you 
remember that cup of tea?
remember that cup of tea cos the water gave out on us at one stage!
yeah, we had to walk across the bloody fields for water !
and milk.
yes, friendly woman at the farm!
we should have had a time, we'd of had to go home!
well who's caravan was it?
oh somebody who's lived er out gloucester !
yes i know!
perhaps that's where aunty ginnie got her 
but er 
bug from !
but erm
the people at the farm they were supposed to seen you know, for her?
she made out that she was paying at the farm to clean it.
did you tell them that in the farm.
well ginnie did!
got her to do the dirty work for for free !
well same when we went and found them boys in it!
oh he's walking back home in temper now !
well it was a job to get in here just after !
and now you're on the staff!
oh shush here's 
now he 
somebody!
no, he's got another one!
no.
yeah , they got a job to get him back!
well it's clean here is it?
people have 
yes.
left it clean?
they haven't been here!
there's been nobody here!
come and have a look!
cos everything is, as i left it!
how long do i keep that for?
somebody else been here,.
this water heater is not to be used as it failed to reach the er oh well i now!
wait, and i'll go and find out!
that's for the bed er television and the microwave.
this and the water heater.
and ask her about the water heater cos if i can't take a shower i will stink!
funny way of running business any how!
look at him with the bloody roll in the window!
oh .
but er, danny says that they said that they were
people had been in!
overflowing!
yes i know, but he he said people are in last week!
but that's what 
they're overflowing with bookings for the summer!
oh!
and now?
yeah, cos they could have three times as many caravans!
by june they'd let them go!
they're overflowing with them!
not now!
of course, you see, it's you that's using the caravan this week so they can come here they can they?
no.
somebody comes quick and wants the caravan they're supposed to be there ready!
oh!
ooh the sun is warm!
can you feel it?
is it the sun or is it this heater ?
you can just see 
oh i dunno, maybe 
the sun!
maybe, maybe, maybe!
oh, and he's taking tarzan for a walk!
is that sally?.
mm?
who's with her?
it's somebody else!
right!
go and see her!
i dunno.
ha?
i dunno.
what do you think,?
now erm mrs and i down the caravan park.
right.
yeah, they were .
but people were in last week!
mm.
erm,.
what?
cos i came down!
and i cos i was amazed they told me about this salt rubbish!
so i did it and bowls are full of water!
i was shocked!
and then, i thought well i gosh this caravan isn't is it because the salt had gone?
i i , it could be because it feels quite cold and damp .
anyway there's er there's no !
there's no television in there!
right.
there's and there's a big sign on the water heater it's not to be used!
right..
and i said we are going back home!
er would you 
yeah.
er 
yes, and i will from the .
yeah ?
yeah.
right, i'll go and get the .
and i said there's a
did you tell him, as he's threatened to come home?
down there now.
she said she's trying to find it.
suppose we better go back home!
going in the shop first.
why is it?
she's got no excuse!
i'll go down there first.
to tell them not to mess about with that water heater!
ohhh she didn't know!
i said well when i was here last that sign wasn't on the thing then!
don't forget!
and i'll put them back in the back .
is that the door key?
who's in the toilet?
is ?
he's gone in there.
i'll take those out the window.
what?
what?
co they're coming down now.
er i said, that the sign on the washing thing washing thing wasn't there last.
darren put the microwave into store.
and the telly is in store, and they'll be bringing that right now.
right, what about the what about the water heater?
the microwave's with .
he took the microwave!
no , darling, because it just stays there.
yeah, right what about the water heater?
that's the more important thing!
she said, she didn't know but she getting somebody down here now!
so we still don't know whether that's gonna be operational!
because, according to b s standards
yes.
that should be ripped off the wall, like!
right!
well i don't know because they've put new flues and everything on these fires.
i don't know!
and she's getting somebody down now!
oh.
so i haven't been to the shop yet.
oh!
as long as they come down in the next twenty minutes!
otherwise i'll go up there!
it was alright last season!
yeah!
she doesn't understand it herself!
i said we were here doing the caravan, it wasn't there then!
somebody's been in!
somebody did, they was there was two people in here last week!
what to rented it?
yeah.
two old age pensioners.
they're supposed to be !
in the end,!
what, so these two people have been in here, staying here, no television, no microwave?
yeah!
two old age pensioners!
are they ripping them off then?
the old age pensioners are paying for a caravan including these, you know, facilities, and the people don't get them!
i don't know!
but that's what she told me!
i'll see about mic , microwave in the house.
no, it isn't!
mum!
, what's on the bloody thing there?
the bur , the blue thing?
can you read it from the inside?
i'll go outside 
mum!
and see it.
yeah.
water heater flue tested, failed!
well that's a big job!
mummy!
well it's up to them put it right!
mummy!
yeah but what i'm saying is that's my week up the spout like, innit?
mummy!
er well how much 
oh by the way, sally's got the shopping.
be here?
oh we'll wonder shall we !
oh well come round and tell us!
they they should have been, they, if they failed 
come on!
it, they should have reported it to you!
that's what 
only getting cold water!.
see .
i can't do any more than that!
i'm not taking it out on you!
i'll take it out on them!
i just burnt twenty quid on food and if i stay here to eat it i'll take it out on them!
you, you're paying you're paying us 
ooh look at that!
a lot of money
ooh!
for them to give you this kind of service!
your mirror's not back either!
no!
a man stole it!
a man called mark!
no!
have you tried lighting that boiler then?
no.
light it!
what if it blows?
and i'll touch it later when let them do it!
ha !
ah?
that lights working.
she said it's electric and gas.
i said, yes, we've lit the fire in the bedroom!
course it's electric, you put the fridge on before!
and i said i put the fridge on.
bulbs are .
and i said when we went in, i went in to show mark now, but i said i can, you can do it myself.
i was going in i was gonna ask somebody to come down and show us how to light the boiler.
and i said there's a big blue sign across it, not to use it!
do not use!
i said to her,that!
mum!
i said well it's there, i said!
and we haven't touched the !
mummy,, watch me!
not very soft!!
i better show off them big !
do !
still wobbly innit?
we'll we'll lend you which says only .
it's do you think they'll be long?
not long, why?
why is the man going to come here?
it's in the car!.
in the car.
go on then!
come back here!
but then i wished they were a bit later!
come out here!
go on!
go and !
i'll hide from .
mm.
shall i?
quick!
yes, go and hide!
why?
i'll start.
we're going to bloody 
the night 
bad week a, a week's in 
darren put the microwave into store!!
why didn't he leave it alone,?
switched off.
that's it!
and you've got it at home really.
it was in store!
you've got it at home!
so it's at home?
put it in store, so he's finding another!
right!
said he 
mum!
the water now!
for christ's sake!
mum!
have you thought about 
why?
going to that fair yet?
no, cos we 
so you're basically 
so what you're saying is you're
no it doesn't matter!
oh god!
i'm gonna fetch my mother in!
for god's sake!
right!
right!!
are you coming to sit in?
i don't know where, when they'll come!
so you've got to wait?
we'll have to!
we'll have to get your bags all in there if we're not stopping, we can't stop!
there's a great big thing on the front go home!
.leave your bag in the car mum.
oh!
we'll have to stay here .
there's nobody at the house.
.
course you can!
what?
what's all this?
but now they've put it .
all in there.
plenty of room for the chair.
mm?
room was just alright for the .
they knew you were working yesterday!
what is ?
on there.
are my .
ooh!
look at me!
look at me!
i'm in here!
alright.
i'm gonna get the bed!
oh crafty!
mind your fingers!
.
well i shall make the beds anyway.
has anyone not got a map here?
yeah.
is it up there?
i don't know!
why don't you ?
now, who got the cigarettes?
oh, some of them are outside, yes.
and in ten minutes if they ain't down here, i'm going back up there!
what you going back up there for?
to get them to remember you.
i'll walk up there and he'll be coming back down, he'll give me a lift back down.
this is the bit where mama says i'm just like susan , i'll have a go at it, i'll demand it!
susan says she does it, but she doesn't really do it!
yeah well, where as i will then!
ah shut up for half an hour now will you?
erm 
half an hour!
half an hour!
the er the gas stoves doesn't!
the gas is on!
oh, it's on?
oh i can see now, yes!
but without that heater they've got no hot water, no nothing!
no.
have they?
so how could they let it out to
yeah, that's what paul said!
old age pensioners?
but it wasn't here!
it wasn't on then!
no, i've er, i, i, think it happened since.
and you see er it's one of those things that can wait.
but all were these were ta er all these were tested.
well dave's done it!
before we came down here to clean the caravan.
cos the man said to me, look you've got a new flue on!
and that one over there has as well!
well that fail sign wasn't on the caravan when we was doing that axle underneath.
no, because
they were saying what 
the blue one was on saying it had been tested!
that's not to say it failed!
no.
oh!
well i come down 
the week after that.
there's a on then!
children to sit on!
look!
i don't!
here they are then!
i don't why it's for children 
to sit on it!
not or potatoes.
those pretty earrings you got!
where did you get those from?
susan gave them to me .
susan did!
mm.
oh!
well come and let me look at them.
look at your new jumper now.
well don't pull them!
oh they are pretty aren't they!
little flowers!
makes you a little clown doesn't it?
no, you're a little clown!
ha!
has anybody 
hello darling!
little darling!
i'm not
ha?
a dog like you are!
perhaps he's working .
could just have forgotten !
who's that?
what's what?
god knows!
ha!
ha!
ha!
sally you're windows, i can't open!
here comes .
what?
inside?
yeah.
oh well!
i nearly trod on your fingers then didn't i?
did i?
mm mm mm.
yeah i thought i'd seen cloud on top on the hills.
that's what you think!
maybe!
oh i don't think, they only had the telly .
oh dear!
let her bloody, it's not cold!
i know cold!
ooh look at dolly's knickers!
just look at those!
ooh!
when they come down then do we or what?
and then !
ooh i told 
got a tow truck?
i've counted about seventeen to twenty caravans.
and there was er
oh you haven't been your wearing your glasses !
!
there was erm
mum!
six people.
er two two of them
mum!
five adults and a little one a baby one went 
mum!
along there
shall i sit on here?
and the caravan next the one opposite the shop 
just sit here then.
or the business 
go to your room.
caravan next door
do i have to go to sleep?
and those people got out a and i've seen.
so there are a few
we're not going to be here tonight!
in the, in the .
yeah.
can we are we going to ?
i don't know !
see what time we've got left!
this is what i do to my teddy just hold her by her leg nice teddy, look!
you're dolly!
ooh!
ooh!!
oh!
have to get another sober!
.
a bird on the roof!
walking about.
can we walk to grandma?
i don't want to!
well you just play there!
in his 
yes and there's a bird on the roof and he was trying get up there 
to see his mummy!
yeah!
here he comes!
what?
good luck!
?
mm.
mhm.
sorry!
.
where does this mattress belong ?
off this bed in here.
mum!?
can you hold on!
what's that?
playing on the roof again.
.
perhaps he's flying down the chimney.
i saw something!
at the door!
it's open then is it?
and again!
help!
he should do!
mm mm mm, mm mm .
do you know what, we haven't played any games?
haven't played the what?
no, she wants to go up to that playgroup !
after!
later!
later?
later, we're going home!
have to get ready for work!
we shall have to go up there 
not today!
we will .
can we have another?
gotta go work mum!
come on mum, be the host!
make a cup of coffee!
we're all dying of thirst!
oh that's an idea!
maybe we'll do two at a time .
never thought about that!
shall we go see that thing,pool where you play in?
in between, it's got yellow flags.
i'll just get .
later!
but, we're going home later!
yeah, we have, i've gotta wait for the man to come!
why?
i know , no hot water!
oh, no hot water!
you won't be able to wash your face!
mum!
mm?
when i went into the can we play?
please?
please mummy!
do you know she's a little 
mum!
bit, ain't she?
what?
that cardigan isn't too long for her!
can i 
no.
mum?
mum, can i?
can i?
then going to the shop.
don't why?
oh, i've gotta go to reception first.
go to the shop.
where you going?
are you going
we're collecting now, wait!
what do you want from the shop?
do you want some .
some .
did you get one?
yes.
where's her shoes?
take me!
so you're going up ?
well , not yet.
i'll wait and see what happens!
well you can come back and i'll tell you what happens!
i'm going up to reception.
so as i can take her for a ride and back.
i don't want to go for a ride!
i want to go that !
oh, that isn't 
until next monday dear!
monday or tuesday.
and it's saturday today.
now then saturday
no, it's the one with the slide!
yeah, well it isn't open until monday or tuesday.
so it's saturday today
can we go and have a look in case she's wrong?
can we?
i'll pop you out in the bag in a minute !
can we?
why nanny!
i don't know!
i've got to wait for the man!
okay.
mummy will.
oh !
pull yourself together sal!
ha!
i can come with you then.
nappy!
why, why does the man wanna come?
mind you don't fall!
why does wanna come?
just seeing why the water heater isn't working!
it is working!
it isn't working!
which heater?
in the bathroom!
it won't get hot!
the water doesn't get hot!
and it should when you have a bath shouldn't it?
mm.
do you know what?
when when the have 
once upon a time!
get off!
when
come and get and get your skates in the car!
why?
cos we will have to go in the car.
oh have you got your skates?
mum!
i want to go down see it.
we'll see that in a minute.
okay.
gonna bring your bike down there?.
stop it!
we go and .
she even said it was quiet!
i know, there's no crowd about!
yeah!
well
now's the time to learn 
innit?
you've gotta put
put a size of a on it!
mummy, i want to go!
well you've gotta put your wellies on and 
you gotta put your shoes on!
ha?
put your shoes on, quick!
have to put your roller skates in the car.
outside.
your shoes!
not inside!
get them on!
why?
well, no why's about it!
get them on!
no!
yes!
no!
right this very minute!
wow you 
else i shall say ding dang on your bum!
you can't make me!cos cos you're not gonna i'll give you a smack bum!
urgh you still got !
here mum!
mum!
mama ma 
yes alright dear.
you've gotta have it done!
they're your snow boots aren't they?
i just go 
come on then!
i will !
are they snow boots?
no, they're
mountain climbing boots.
mountain climbers!
oh weh 
climbed up on .
do you want your coat on?
did they know that they we , these were coming down?
yeah!
and mark, definite cos it's on the papers, it's on the books!
we asked them .
mm.
that's why ask what time of year!
this is, god, a bloody afternoon wasted!
damn thing's gonna be a bloody pest!
it will go!
how much a week rent do you pay for ground?
no, it all comes out at the end of the summer, see.
yeah, but d er, do they tell you how much they take out?
yeah.
it's all laid out.
ha qq ho ha .
are the at the back any different is it?
yeah.
but er, i think that the the tiles a bit near the woodwork.
mhm.
look at her, going on down the road!
oh she's got her bike.
roller skates.
oh!
she'll never get her to go like that cos her legs are too stiff!
oh, she like .
making harder work !
mm?
making harder work for herself!
mm mm!
she's come off!
they're walking.
hark at the wind coming in through the
fire, the vent.
mm.
no.
sorry to trouble you, do you own the caravan i'm renting?
i own them.
you own it?
oh!erm we own a caravan.
could you tell me have you been very happy with the services ?
how everything works out, the parking charge
come in.
and that?.
well come in!
thank you.
i don't really know much about this cos my son does it all.
oh i see!
hiya 
hello!
i'm cold!
you know nice way to get warm!
yeah !
.
erm i don't really know much about it this is our first spring, you see?
there's all grass on there!
is it?
so this a new
i'm afraid i brought that in !
did you?
yes, it's off my feet!
we've been ploughing all over the grass!
i'd better stand 
god!
out there really!
you stand out there then!
i don't want to walk all over your carpet!
oh !
there's a there
yes.
and stand right on it!
erm 
get tho get those stools out.
is it a new 
yeah.
one then?
yeah, i mean 
not brand new!
it was new to us!
was it?
yeah.
so this is your, really your first year is it?
yeah.
and, are you going to let it out?
no.
oh!
why?
well, we bought a caravan last year actually at the end of may
yeah.
yes.
and erm
move out the way!
we it we don't think it was let out very often.
that was through to the end of september.
when we came up to see it well it was a brand spanking new
yeah.
we nearly cried!
it was in such a state!
only had it for a few months.
upholstery, carpets the bath the toilet the cooker, the fridge the whole lot was filthy!
and when we think that we saw it when it was new!
yeah.
and i went storming down to the office, didn't i?
and i said renting it, because it must of been occupied by animals!
mm.
it was disgusting!
animals and .
ah know 
well 
we've stated
yeah.
it doesn't matter what you state, cos we had heard from other pe , i've been doing this, i've been up here last weekend cos i am so angry about all this!
well we've had a little 
it's just a joke!
problem now!
that's why we're here.
really?
ah!
er there are so many with nothing 
well we came 
to do with these .
we came down my son came down here month and he and er, put red lead all underneath it.
you know the ?
following sunday i came down to wash it and polish it and now we've got blue stickers in the bathroom the heater!
we had a message 
and the 
through
and the boys come down for a week!
and they know it!
how many 
here 
did they do?
here he is coming back!
be careful, the door opens outwards!
we erm we had a letter through but it was to test the boilers, because .
so we did and we've 
yes.
heard no more about it!
ah well i got a thing tested on ours thought ours was alright.
i hope so!
well there's a great
on the sunday we were here
oh was it?
that blue thing was on the window!
that's to say water?
but now it's got red across it, failed!
and that wasn't there .
and you've got to pay more money to make sure it's put right!
i don't know!
yeah you do!
there are!
didn't know anything about it!
you do!
they tell you that!
the whole thing is just 
there are no rules.
this is this .
see, ours was nineteen ninety one because it 
you're joking!
was er absolutely 
three years, or two years, i dunno!
ah well cos i think the newer one will be this is some government thing to do with the gas.
i mean with fitting the 
yeah.
flue.
so we had all that consequently!
mm.
and erm 
hey!
some of them of failed, and if they fail you have to pay so much.
you have to pay so much anyway to have it changed.
but, as i say, we've been very unhappy about it!
we had erm notes through about out of 
ten pillows, seven needed replacing and we needed a new milk saucepan, a new frying pan, a new ashtray
mm!
cleaners etcetera!
so, i replaced most of them myself and then whenever we came down course we complained about the cleaning!
when we came down well it was still less that desirable!
it's terrible!
and erm 
the cooker was filthy!
yeah!
the fridge had mould in it!
all what?
i mean we're talking about 
a thing that's been used for a couple of months!
yeah.
then he came in er sort of right at the end said, well look, i'm so cheesed off with you lot 
can't we do anything about it?
she said, look let me know, how much it's going to cost me to get rid of this, because i've had enough!
and we've only just bought it !
well
so er 
june , last year.
june , yes.
and so er 
he came back 
then erm
i think you can understand!
is this your 
so, they won't give us 
caravan?
no.
they won't quote any 
oh!
price!
they quote anything!
so you find you're, you're on your own!
yeah.
and erm you know, if we pay up 
everything is 
it's cost a fortune to actually the caravan sited pay out six thousand quid right?
and then, you have to let it out then.
through them they have to have first option.
they're the one that gets the benefit!
well two weeks ago 
but then they can't sell it!
they can't sell it!
and that's only the new one!
cos they said, i won't be able sell it cos they they've got so many new ones on the site!
last week there was people in here!
so how could that water be like it is?
cos you can't use it!
there is no hot water!
well he can't!
well everything everything is
in their favour.
and i've well the people, all the people i've spoken to and everybody i've spoken to is very unhappy!
i haven't spoken to one who's satisfied yet!
i've been on the telephone to people!
i'm taking numbers off of caravans where they're letting and i've been round and spoken to people who are in them caravans, and not one is happy!
last week a chap down here, david 
yeah.
told me, he said, well ninety five per cent are happy.
i said, really?
well i haven't found one yet!
out 
yes.
of all the people i've spoken to!
what did they say now?
they're all very unhappy!
i tell you!
this woman doesn't know anything, like!
she just said there's two boys out on there on site and the one, the, the ginger haired boy knows the you know the problem.
and i 
mum!
said, well look i said, i don't wanna know 
hold on!
that!
i said, is this he , water heater gonna be ?
i don't know!
i, oh it's alright, she said it's in the bathroom?
i said yeah.
she said well he knows about it, it's all in hand!
well 
well i 
that's no good to me, like!
no!
no it's
he said he'd be one of the first.
he's putting the flues on and he hasn't come down to check it so if he's down here i'm gonna bloody tell him.
pipes like that 
yeah.
oh.
and still they've condemned it.
yes, it's surely their van.
and other flues all down along there.
mm.
all on the grass see?
it's coming out of here.
this bloke, he said.
one of them goes round putting the chimneys on and the other checks the flue.
oh.
so i'll tell him that the fire will be on.
mm.
there's some in the van there.
they're pretty good ones aren't they?
having their dinner.
yeah.
that looks nice.
perhaps they've been in and done it now.
bloody thing.
well the one door is empty and
and the first booking for the caravan, she just said it again.
i've got it on my tape is th the twenty first of march.
when the first comes in?
when the first comes in.
on the twenty first of march.
and danny said the third .
third did he?the first which was the sunday and he had to get it ready because they were coming in on the tuesday, on the third.
that's why there was such a mad panic to get it done on the sunday the last day before so why are the mattresses back there getting bloody damp?
oh i forgot to give him them.
mark isn't coming over to pick the car up.
he doesn't want to.
he's enjoying his break.
oh he's he's alright a couple of days and getting old i think.
mark loves it.
loves being on his own.
ah but he don't get the chance does he?
although i like being by myself.
but then i different age isn't it, to ?
what the bloody hell is that?
montrose twenty eight.
r twelve.
well it's the key of somebody's cottage 
it's the key of somebody's caravan but it's not ours.
perhaps it's the one he's got.
i'll go and try these in the door now cos this is ours.
the door.
look at that old thing squat on the roof.
it is.
but they've got the bloody labels mixed up by the look of it.
try them both.
yeah i'm gonna try the both.
that is it.
well what the hell is that?
montrose, twenty eight.
r twelve and that one's j twelve.
oh, well what's the other one?
this is.
oh well anyway it's a code name, it's no business of yours.
but what number's on the other one?
one.
what?
this is the owner's set, a mr .
well who's are these?
well you'd better see mark first and and let them have them back.
mark.
it's nothing, these aren't nothing to do with mark.
oh.
they belong in the .
it smells musty in here.
yes.
this is a caravan smell and mrs 's clothes used to stink by it.
mm.
oh i don't believe this!
couldn't be bothered to shop.
i'll give them all to mark.
and then i'll go up the shop and get some, i'll need a couple of boxes.
where's the microwave?
ooh god .
gas on or should we turn the lights on so we can get the 
no paper.
i've gotta have er paper to leave messages.
i was gonna ask mark for a pen.
i've got a pen and i've got paper.
a big note.
so that i can say the fire's burning.
mm.
well you can call by and tell him that.
yeah but i want it for the men that's going to alter the gas.
oh.
for signs.
i'm gonna put one in there one on the kitchen
you'll have to buy a paper pad that's all .
and one by the fire.
yeah.
then all the doors should be open see.
they are damp but they don't feel too bad 
no.
see if they leave the doors open it's not too bad.
oh well.
coat hanger on the floor.
feel this and feel those beds in there.
but i mean this is a er er er
his home.
yes but it's a a cold room 
no that's wet.
yes it's wet.
well these were too weren't they?
and he's stuck them by the fire.
yeah them all .
well i'm just gonna get the paper and that's it.
costing a bloody fortune.
eh?
to light the fire.
goes out and 
yeah.
any toilet paper.
no paper or haven't got pens there.
no pens.
no tissues.
any tissues?
no.
erm 
how many pieces of paper do you want?
too hard.
let's go down the toilet, see if it's open.
no wait a minute.
no wait a minute.
disconnected the gas, took that bloody old heater off, connected it up somewhere else and whatever they're gonna do and then the gas is coming through a fire.
well mark is there.
we can pop across and see.
he's not gonna go round the caravan and try each bed out is he?
he said he was going to and see that it was done
mhm.
things were done well that's a matter of .
oh it'd be better for him to put that fire on at night time and go over in the morning and switch it off.
well be at work before he can be out of bed probably, in the morning.
have to .
and if he's gonna walk to tenby they could be starting when he's in tenby.
well sally will be there.
well sally'll go with him.
yeah?
i mean if, if he forgets sally could remind him.
two of them.
if those men wasn't going there i would say right, put the gas fire on.
put it on low and leave it the night and day cos it was left on for a week once wasn't it?
mm.
oh god that was, that was at er the flat.
left on for a fortnight.
oh and it was a cold day.
but it was in august or the end of september or someth er er the beginning of september and it was a chilly day but it was still summer.
it wasn't, you know, it wasn't terribly cold.
but we went home and i remember going in the room, i opened the door and oh it's lovely and warm in here!
so i stood by the door i wait till dad come in cos he was the last out and it was always my fault like, i would have left the fire on not him.
so i stood by the door and i never moved till he went in oh he said but with a caravan i don't know.
mm they're not very powerful grates are they?
dunno oh nan he says, get mark 
is, is yours a heater?
mm?
is yours a a long and 
well you either put one bar on or the lot is on or it's very dim like this is low and you can't see it at all.
there's no heat from it.
you want something that gives heat 
there is heat.
but you can't see it.
oh.
but you want to air them beds, you want to dry them beds.
i mean you've got to have heat there.
well danny says get mark and bung them in the bloody car and bring it home.
the best thing you want to stick it in the room and put a heater .
well we could put it in the spare bedroom.
put it up against the radiator.
mm.
but if someone's going there next week, that's two beds, three beds.
you could put them in the sitting room.
and put the heater on there, put the fire on there.
mm.
well i dunno.
i do like this.
i'm afraid i 
you don't have to.
have a drink and it disappears.
oh i dunno 
and there isn't the flavour in it that used to be.
and this is marks and spencers?
mm.
there's a you know they used to put i suppose vanilla essence or some of these no almond would it be?
mm.
i don't know.
there used to be a lot more taste on it though than there is on that one anyway.
well if he's going down there tomorrow why can't he bring them back?
well i suppose he could.
i have to say it would help him.
i suppose they're i suppose they're worrying him?
they want something done about it.
well i wouldn't bloody .
no way.
that thing on top of that mattress, the thing that doesn't fit who's is that?
oh theirs.
dunno.
belongs to the caravan
yeah.
well that's what i mean, belongs to the caravan.
why was it stuck on the bed?
because that is the mattress for the bed that folds away in the sitting room.
right?
but it seems to me to be a foam thing.
it is.
and it's covered in a, in a po polythene would you say?
plastic or what it is covered?
cloth.
cos you couldn't put that by the fire.
yeah.
it would melt.
it's a cloth cover on it.
but i bet it's plastic inside it.
it's like these cushions isn't it?
it's foam.
yes.
foam.
but why was it so damp and cold here then?
because it's wet and it's damp.
well plastic doesn't hold the damp.
it isn't plastic, it's foam!
well the foam, it doesn't
oh god, yes.
well you couldn't put them in the car could you?
what?
the mattresses.
mm?
well i've put the big one in but i know that the rest wouldn't go in.
mm.
but then the little bedroom wasn't so didn't seem so damp.
but you didn't try it did you, really?
in that caravan a caravan's a caravan, call it what you like but in that caravan that mark is in there was that little room where the w hot water heater is
mm.
and there was a hole er on the floor over there with a grating on it that was you could see through to the ground.
mm.
well if through the winter months when there's no fire in there, no nothing in there the damp is bound to be coming through there.
fog gets in.
course it does.
all caravans are like that.
but you've got to have those caravan, those vents because the van is so small and you've got gas supplied.
it's rules and regulations.
if you've got a gas fire in 
it it means that they haven't been doing their duty in the winter then.
if they guarantee to put the mattresses all up in the dry they asked you to do yours or did they say they would do it?
they done it.
well how's the damn thing on the bed then?
because they put it back there for these people that was coming in.
oh.
they didn't seemingly.
we don't know.
do we?
no.
well there were no there anyway.
so they say.
it's all hearsay.
well alright.
perhaps the man was working part-time.
perhaps he never noticed the .
perhaps the people were in the van and found the beds wet and said well we can't sleep here and they slept in the sit with the fire on.
i dunno.
it could have been.
cos there was only two here.
cold weather in any case.
eh?
it's cold weather in any case.
that's right.
shut the lights.
you don't know.
mm.
so you can't swear to that then.
no.
that, that they weren't there.
you can't, no.
and then again alright, the fire was condemned on the sixth.
well those people were only there from tuesday to friday.
and the sixth was a friday.
so it could have been condemned as they were going.
oh.
i don't know.
neither have i.
that's why i 
but er anyway if danny's, if if mark is there now he can bring one home today and then he can bring the others tomorrow.
er it's only the two little ones.
if there are two little ones there.
yeah.
if there are two little ones there.
if they're big enough for for susan's two boys.
and and one for 
well their girls have gotta sleep in them.
mm.
er it's only one big one and two little ones.
well then you might as well push that little thing in as well mightn't you?
oh yes.
and bring them home.
but mark won't be there when you take them back.
well he says he's going to the, he said he was going to the on friday and they would be finished by friday.
and he was going to see that it was finished by friday.
mm.
well you could take them back on friday.
mhm yeah, i could take them back friday.
how am i gonna get them in the van?
what van?
in, back into the caravan.
on me own.
oh.
it's a double mattress, a double bedded mattress.
i can't bloody lift that.
so the only thing that i would suggest is to
well still mark will be there.
or he could come down with you on saturday?
or sally maybe would be able to come down with you saturday and help you?
unless we went over the same day that susan went over.
and kept the mattresses till susan goes.
but the understanding is that like mark has got the caravan this week.
mm.
but if they had a booking to go into it, mark's gotta get out.
oh well he could ring you up and you could take them back down but at least they would be dried.
cos if anybody who could they come on if they caught cold and and
well i dunno.
you or him?
i dunno.
it's like fighting a losing battle isn't it?
if someone else 
i wouldn't worry at all.
i wouldn't hesitate.
it's an embarrassment for people to come in and catch cold and think it's your mattresses that's done it.
mm.
if those men were not working on the gas i would go over there now, and i'd switch the fire and i'd leave it on.
mm.
yes.
the thing is old mark is there to see to it.
mark won't be there to see to it?
why?
because how does m mark know?
mark right, he's got up this morning and he's gone to tenby.
and he's gone to look around tenby.
while he's gone those men have gone in there.
that's what i mean.
he can't be standing there watching the bloody thing all the time.
no.
but he could put a note on it.
please leave this fire on.
please do not touch this fire.
well they've got to haven't they?
to disconnect the gas.
oh i thought it was water problems.
gas.
a gas water heater!
oh.
they've gotta disconnect the gas to get the water heater off the wall.
and fix it to the 
well mark will be back there tonight and he can switch it on when he comes home.
make it his responsibility.
oh you don't understand!
in the meantime the men have took the water heater off the wall.
they've put it from that wall, and they've stuck it on to this wall.
oh let's connect it up see if it works.
now in the meantime there's gas seeping through that fire there with no light.
oh.
so you've blown your caravan.
well then again, there's mark and sally.
you could take the mattresses and put them in their caravan in the spare bedroom.
is there a spare bedroom?
well no.
cos mark's going in one, sally's going in the other.
oh bring them home then.
bring them home and tell them that you're taking them home to air.
and i don't suppose, they're not wet you see.
it's different it's, they're damp it's different if there'd been a hole and the water was coming in.
they're not saturated.
no.
it won't take them long.
that's what i says.
if those men wasn't working there i wouldn't hesitate.
the fire would go on and i'd leave it on low
mm.
and the atmosphere would warm up right through the caravan.
mm.
but i'd hump them into the sitting room.
if those men came there on tuesday
mm.
and done their work and mark rang me here and said, on tuesday the caravan's great now, the fires are alright.
i'd go straight over there and switch the fires on.
mm.
well i'd even tell him to go down only he ain't got the keys.
cos they're not going to take an awful long time in a good hot room to dry.
the only thing again that i'm thinking of what if we gets them out of the caravan and we gets them into the car and we're getting them in and out here and then we gets them back into the car to take them back over and in to the caravan, what if we rip the bloody things?
well if we rip them we rip them and i'll mend them.
mm.
they are yours aren't they?
mm.
put a patch on them.
then she turned round and she said, i said to her those beds are soaking, i said.
there's nobody can sleep in those.
yes, she said but er when i went down there to check after you'd gone, she said erm yours was erm the driest of them sort of thing.
suppose they didn't bother with them.
and i said 
didn't bother with them.
see they're alright.
i said then well i said from the time now, i said there is nobody i said, can sleep on those mattresses.
no she said, it does take a while for caravans to dry out.
well say what you were saying 
so in other words you don't go to the caravan.
. let it be their responsibility, they put them in there.
well mark's going in at his own risk, see?
they sold them to you complete.
so?
so they're yours.
what's the good of a bed a bed without a mattress?
i'm talking about the mattresses.
what are you talking about?
the caravan!
well i thought you was talking about mattresses airing in front of the fire.
well that subject's gone!
oh well
i'm saying that park, what the woman said that she went down to check the vans last summer
mm.
end of last summer.
long time since then .
and to see that the salt was there and the mattresses were up and that was great.
and she went down to check in the winter time and she said your van was really dry.
oh.
well it all depends how she checked.
perhaps.
well then they then they went and put the mattresses back in their places.
now the mattresses are soaking.
mm.
and i said there's nobody can go and sleep on those mattresses.
and she said well it does take a time for the vans to dry out.
mm.
not until the sun comes hot and heavy on it.
so whoever goes there, to anybody's van, that's what they're getting.
oh well, i should take advantage now mark is in, bring the damn things from there.
then you can get him to help you take them back on friday.
i think we'd have to ring them up and let them know what we're doing.
well go in office and tell them.
you can talk personally better than on the phone.
cos they are your mattresses aren't they?
when you take them back they're there for their inspection.
unless you you take electric blanket down?
put it on, oh you can't put that on a damp bed can you?
not really.
don't think so.
not 
well they are protected.
what?
er er electric blankets.
don't know.
they're built er pretty, pretty good that way i think.
i don't know what about the lags for the wall 
and another thing, i didn't even look in mark's room.
was there pillows and blankets and quilts in his caravan?
i didn't look.
well perhaps sally had a hunt 
dunno.
oh well well i dunno i think i'll go and wash me hair.
it's desperate for it.
i've gotta have a bath in the morning.
tomorrow.
is it?
well i'm not bound to, no.
what?
have a bath tomorrow.
well you can have one .
good god, you can have one now if you want it.
i hope you know i'd er see he'll have to put the back seat of the car down into a van.
shit i'm afraid in case those mattresses rip.
mm?
because they're so thin.
well i'll mend the buggers for you .
and don't be afraid of a patch dear.
it's not that i'm afraid of a patch.
are caravan sizes the same as everyday sizes?
the beds, the big beds are.
the small beds aren't.
well you can get erm two foot bunk beds nan.
mm.
but they're not spring mattresses.
mm.
although what's on the bed is nice mattresses.
oh what's have you got his dinner?
yes.
oh.
bloody cheek, do him the world of good to go without for a day or two.
he won't eat it.
well that's it, he he 
it's treating him like a kid of five or six year old isn't it?
he forgets that he
well the thing is he doesn't have a dinner every day of the week.
it won't hurt him.
lots of people don't have one at all.
and then he looks forward to the weekends and that.
he had dinner yesterday before he went.
so that's his weekend dinner.
if he was in living in a flat by himself he wouldn't be having one at all.
well i don't imagine, unless he went out for it.
fish and chips at night is it, his dinner?
look at the ruddy traffic.
mm.
oh held up.
oh the lights have come higher up now.
oh.
it's sunday today.
there's more transport on the road i expect.
the lights have been moved up the road.
oh.
i don't like the glass in those windows.
where?
coloured glass isn't it?
yeah.
don't look right somehow.
still, net curtains on them.
eh?
when you've net curtains on them.
there are four niggers in there.
mm?
four niggers in that .
mm.
oh god.
now i need the key .
mm?
gonna need the key for this.
the west end of london.
the east end i think.
east end then.
oh he's got a nice shirt on.
in a pub he was, got drunk and for a twenty pound bet shaved off all his hair.
i still owe him the money.
but he is stupid cos he went hitchhiking once and left a day early to avoid traffic.
here, do you know what i fancy?
i fancy an icecream.
she said well i'll go and get you one.
he said no, you know what your memory's like, you're bound to forget.
she said no i won't, what do you fancy?
he said well i fancy vanilla and strawberry icecream with chocolate sauce, raspberry sauce, crushed nuts and a flake.
she said right, vanilla and strawberry icecream, chocolate sauce, crushed nuts.
said right, i shall be back in five minutes.
two hours later she come back with a ham sandwich.
he said you silly cow!
you forgot the mustard.
east end.
this week on handy hints we are talking fishing.
i once went for a job as a fisherman.
the boss said connolly you've got the job, you start on monday.
i said that sounds alright, could i have a sub?
he said no you're on a fishing boat like everybody else.
well one of the greatest qualities a fisherman can have is of course patience.
and you can spend the whole day without a bite.
as for me, i always take my packed lunch.
and pot noodles is one of my favourite dishes.
no.
i don't think that the pub is open the cafs aren't open the amusements aren't open.
the bar's open.
no.
all locked up and in darkness.
?
we went there, had a look.
perhaps they'll open at night time.
dunno.
when he asked me when they opened.
i don't know i said.
and what time do they shut?
and i said i don't know but i said i shouldn't think it would be too late.
i dunno.
and er 
did he eat the dinner?
well i dunno.
i left it there and then went down the caravan.
when we come back he'd got the dishes all ready for me.
so you don't know if he ate it or not?
no the dishes .
mm?
she gave me a key.
mm.
she told me here's your keys now she said because you've lost a set.
you didn't tell her any different did you?
well why didn't you tell me ?
i did tell you!
i told you yesterday.
you told me they'd got a set of keys.
what's happened?
so she give me a set of keys.
and?
and erm i give them to mark.
aye.
and i told him i want them back, don't take them to the office.
so what did they say about you keeping them on??
i went in there again and i told her that you'd rung and some angela from sales andrea, we haven't got an andrea she said.
so she said somebody else it could have been.
i said i don't know i said.
angela 
no.
i don't know.
but erm she said she has said that we could do this and she said that's fine, she said.
as long as you don't as long as you don't put erm anything too near it.
mm.
and i said mark's here so that he can switch it switch it off at nights.
so anyway while i was there darren came in.
is everything alright?
he said.
are all the jobs done?
and i said well look i said, i've got to come because i said there's no way anybody i said i wouldn't do it myself, i wouldn't put anybody in those beds.
i said something's got to be done and it won't wait.
and i said i'm going to leave the fire on and er mark's here and he'll switch it off at night.
that's alright she said.
let's see she said,th when's the first when's your first booking?
not until, i think she said april twenty first.
yeah that comes under the bookings.
that's our first booking, paid booking.
nothing about these ones that's already been in.
we're there
susan is there she said the twenty first and i on the twenty first.
but she wouldn't be on their books like that would it?
well she'd be on a form, yes.
that's the twenty first of march.
yes.
well perhaps she was talking about sue then.
i don't know.
i didn't really stop to find out.
and er she said that'll be alright.
and mark's there, i said he'll switch it off at night.
fine she said, as long as there's nothing left too near the fire.
so i took the envelope off those tickets and i tore that up and wrote down and i stuck it in the water heater that the sitting room fire may be on, please check.
i put another one then on the draining board.
cos if they're going to fix it round the sink, he doesn't know where they're gonna put it.
you know, while i was there darren came in.
and he said er have all the jobs been done yet?
and i said well no i said there's some water i said.
mark's on holiday this week i said.
they've put him in another.
oh that's right he said.
i heard something about this he said, er i was on holidays all last week he said but erm it's bloody lies cos i saw him last week.
and he said erm yeah he said cos we've gotta pay this he said because it's all in the guarantee.
in the warranty.
and he came in and i said and the mirror on the dressing table isn't done.
you know and that's gone and i said feel these beds i said.
they're soaking wet.
and he felt them and he said they are a bit he said.
so i said well i danny rang this morning and he got permission to put the fire on and put them, i'm going to move them all into the front and erm to air them up.
and i said there's no way anybody can sleep in there.
that's alright he said.
and he checked and then he went so i took the bags off the pillows in case they were sweating in the bags and i put them out on the seats.
i put the quilts all out on the seats.
and .
because there's eight there's er seven, there's eight pillows then and
he's done nothing.
yeah.
he 
mm?
the girl in the coun the girl behind the counter, the little tiny one.
small and 
she's still there?
tiny.
yes.
she said how's danny then?
and i said oh he's at home i said this week i said and that oh and she said well tell him to get over here and we'll sort him out.
i said eh i said when danny comes in he'll sort you out.
and she laughed about it.
darren said you know the girls in the were saying that you weren't well, how was you and one of these days.
i don't know what this is all for.
well they th th the kids were there but 
and he said will you be there?
and i said well i don't know.
you should have said yes, we're gonna try to.
that's why i got the tickets.
it depends now how er mm i don't know.
tea?
he enjoyed it for forty years.
two thousand five hundred pounds.
oh.
he made a mistake.
you know, if there's nothing like the last week then did you have your tea danny?
i had one piece of butter and jam.
i can't take them tablets till i've eaten something.
oh.
no empty stomachs.
no.
so 
terrible.
that was at four o'clock, i had to take a tablet.
mm.
well mark is quite contented where he is.
sally said the caravan he's in is a lot better than mine.
ooh it's out of this world.
i mean you can't compare it can you?
and the bedrooms!
you can't compare it, it's the rolls royce of caravans.
that's, that darren said oh aye, he's the one, he's in the maroon one he said.
he's in the rolls royce.
top of the range he said.
beautiful thing.
good god there's a mirror in the sitting room as big as that wall.
you'll see it when you go over there.
beautiful thing.
yes,
and i said i've bought a box of matches for him to go down and light this fire thinking you know he might need two or three matches at a time.
but er well i gave him a box of matches to go with him and i thought oh well he'll have plenty of matches then.
and i took them in, he says what do you buy them for?
he said.
i've got loads of matches.
in this caravan everything's electronic.
fridge, light switches ooh beautiful thing it is.
ten times the price of ours i expect.
a caravan is a caravan after all, isn't it?
but for what we want it for ours is good enough.
good enough.
that's what i'm saying perhaps they must let it out though.
if we were having 
why's malcolm got it?
if we were having a caravan like that, i'd be too frightened to let it.
i wouldn't.
i wouldn't 
well there we are.
let it.
there we are.
i couldn't afford to pay for it then could i?
no.
he's right up by the wishing wheel well or whatever it is.
you know this reproduction furniture?
and the little lead windows?
that's got it all inside it.
and the shower hasn't got a curtain it's got a big black door.
is it?
no.
the shower is.
quite a few people there today.
whether it was the fine weather bringing them out or yesterday.
lot of owners where down checking it see.
eh?
lot of owners were down checking them.
mm.
they were .
you could see the mattresses all under the sheet.
and they were cleaning the windows and washing the box 
i would do that next year.
mm?
mm.
i'd do that next year.
we never saw that old girl trudging round today.
the life of a caravan isn't long is it?
not we've got.
when we bought it he told me i'd have at least ten years because the make of it is it's a good make.
and the make has got a lot to do with it.
oh.
and what is the make of it?
doesn't know why you let it like you do.
you'll get kids in it running and jumping and wrestling about.
and this woman said that she stated no animals.
but she said they tell you that and she said they tell you, it's on computer she said, but animals do go in the vans.
well i can tell you one thing, animals will not go into ours.
and i tell you she's got a different contract with me altogether.
you read our contract didn't you, last night?
it's there in black and white.
mm i know, that's what she said.
i don't how she knows.
if i, if if i found out there was animals in our caravan, i'd take them to town.
but how do you know if you're not there every second?
you you for one, like her, when you went to the caravan, you'd smell it like that.
oh i .
but you'd smell it wouldn't you?
mm.
and they know this.
cos there are dogs there, great big ones.
yeah.
mm big white ones.
that that man yesterday, he paid six thousand pound for his caravan.
he s he said that on the tape.
mhm.
i listened to the tape with her last night.
he paid six thousand pound.
we paid fourteen thousand seven hundred for ours.
mm.
he hasn't got, ours is a gold golden olympic.
he's not having the rent we're having.
no.
he's got a .
he hasn't got a brand new caravan.
but he nearly gave six thousand pound for it.
that's what they said though.
yeah i know.
i know they said it.
i heard them.
but a new caravan starts from eleven thousand eight hundred.
that's the price of a new one.
i know they're as good as a house almost.
well he said on that tape, i gave them a fat cheque of six thousand pounds.
mm.
well that isn't bloody half of what we paid.
yeah i'm paying for mine monthly, but i won't disturb fourteen thousand seven hundred.
perhaps perhaps he's got a an agreement.
like perhaps he bought the ground and the caravan, and then they had an agreement that er stone park would er b you know let it, be responsible for when they let it or something.
yeah.
see there's different contracts altogether there.
mm.
i mean he she was going on that tape about she had to replace some things.
mm.
she had well i've got nothing like that.
no.
if something is gone they replace it.
that's part of the contract.
well everything had gone on the one.
well
dishes and furniture and 
pillows.
everything was ripped out or destroyed.
pillows.
well
she had to pay for eight pillows.
mm.
we've had no bills like that.
we were asked if we wanted to do the chassis.
and she was so toffee-nosed as if they said the curtains.
oh yes i'll have them c gotta have them done.
and and probably said they'd maintain the thing for her at a price.
well at a price yeah.
i mean they don't do nothing for nothing.
no of course not.
they're out to get money, aren't they?
it's their living.
but when we had these things through for the chassis and the cleaning of the caravan, it was all optional.
if i, if you wanted to go down there and scrub the van out, you go and scrub it out.
you go and do it.
and it saves
and i will next year.
it saves thirty five pounds.
mm.
but for that thirty five pounds the carpets are shampooed, the seats are shampooed, the lot.
were they in today?
what?
the men?
darren was there.
oh he was the only one.
yeah.
cos there was two 
he come to see
two workmen went by.
yeah, further down.
i even went, i was dying to go to the toilet so i thought oh i'll go down to the big er and i had no toilet paper so i'll go down to the big toilets and shower rooms.
they're all locked.
everything's locked up there.
everything's locked there.
there's toilet paper in the caravan.
no.
not even the holder it was on.
gone.
well when roger and mark was there, there was a toilet roll there.
mm.
yeah well er mark took a couple with him but course they're in the caravan with him.
no.
no.
he took them from here.
when they went down to do the chassis
yeah, they took one 
there was a toi 
in case they needed the toilet.
there was a toilet roll in there then.
well it's gone.
and the cardboard roll off it.
mm.
i wonder who's got that grocery store?
oh when i was over there last 
it goes out to tender i expect.
when i was over there last they were, there was four trucks r loading that supermarket up.
mm.
long lease i expect.
four lorry loads of stuff there.
yes, it's could be like thomas shop.
he has it for so long.
oh i don't know.
mm.
three or four years perhaps at a time.
mm.
and then you've gotta go.
you've gotta put in tenders for it then.
cos they must make a bomb though.
unless stone park has got it.
cos a lot of stuff isn't in.
they could be put a manager in and the benefits.
i suppose they would.
mm.
perhaps they do.
and then there's staff there to run it.
i dunno.
well the man with the bike, that's his business.
and the ma and the people then with clothes last year, who were they now?
to the shop?
was m was mark's caravan warm?
well he didn't have a fire on, nothing.
he was just lying there watching telly and reading the paper and
did he have a paper?
mm.
should have brought it back, did you?
no.
he bought the saturday one that's got the week part in it.
why didn't he come over and fetch the car then?
because he said there's no point, i don't want it.
well i've got to take his over now, he'll have to bring me back.
yeah.
what i was going to tell him, if he was to come over, take my car there when i'd have taken this car over, i would have had a car to come back.
well that's what he said.
he said you'd better keep the car there in case his won't be ready or something.
mm.
lot of kids about though.
in another couple of weeks spring then.
would if the weather would take up.
but still they book regardless of weather don't they?
mm.
mm.
that's the night for my birthday.
all the machines and everything are switched off in there.
yeah but you see on the, oh i don't know what date it is sixteenth tomorrow on the eighteenth erm eighteenth, nineteenth, twentieth they have freddie and the dreamers there.
well that's wednesday.
yeah.
so they must be open at nights to practise.
mark is there.
mark mark is going to it.
that george roper's there the week after.
will sally be able to go with him?
course she will.
she's got a member's ticket.
she's a bloody erm member's ticket just like mark has got.
don't cost her anything.
but on that one, there's no children allowed in there.
it's adult only.
and there's a buffet with it.
a free buffet.
well now, do they run a show and that racket's going on in the entertainment club at the same time?
oh you can't hear it.
the show is up in the other rooms.
huge big rooms up there.
in the room.
it holds sixteen hundred and fifty people.
we didn't go up there.
mm.
well it must be one heck of a me er noises.
you can't hear a thing in there.
mm.
no.
we 
and there's a big dance hall there.
we didn't go into them because they were all closed up.
do you remember that george and mildred used to be on telly in comedy?
oh yes.
oh i remember mildred.
well george 
yeah well george's the drippy one.
she, she she's dead now er
mm.
mm.
mildred.
well george roper is there on the twenty eighth of march.
oh is that his name?
yeah.
george roper.
mm.
george and mildred.
she was funny.
she was good.
he's there on the twenty eighth of march.
well what does he do then?
he's a comedian.
well you know, bit of acting, comedian.
featuring stars cabaret george roper and a full supporting programme.
i think that'll be very old.
well he's fifties.
gonna say i don't think he could go on his own, go down on his own 
well .
i mean they've got the comedians there er next week for four nights.
the ones that are on television.
a string of comedians saying jokes one after the other.
though this year 
well i i never thought much of george roper.
i i he was nothing without mildred.
mm.
well he like harry worth weren't he?
it's er the way he says things.
he could make you laugh by looking at him.
i mean he is a comedian.
i thought she was the bottom of it all.
it was she that kept the thing going.
well no cos the show was based on that er spencer, what was his name?
frank spencer?
frank spencer and betty thing.
this show was based on the same thing.
he was a s she was the one that's alright and he was the stupid one.
like frank spencer used to do stupid things.
now that george used to have a bloody motorbike and a sidecar.
the sidecar would go that way, motorbike would go that way.
you know, stupid things.
long time ago danny.
i don't remember much about these things.
i i remember that show.
never used to miss them.
reg on the buses was like that as well.
oh no i didn't like that.
his sister and her husband, forget her name.
arthur was the husband.
mm.
oh there we are.
oh dear.
ring sally now then, cos she wants to put in the bath with her.
well does she go in in the morning?
no i dunno sally works on a monday.
oh.
oh aye yeah.
so i dunno.
eight o'clock i think she said last night.
finishing at eight?
she's going in about eight.
oh.
oh i don't know.
she'll tell you.
that's alright then.
but i really should have looked at me plants.
mm?
i should have looked at me plants today.
anyway our darren came in,and i'm gonna forget darren came to the caravan and i was telling him about these wet sheets and beds and the mirrors done and what i was doing there and oh he said and about the mattress he said and i said to him mattress, it's still the same mattress.
yes he said, i've gotta wait he said.
i'll be putting a new mattress in er i'll be putting another mattress in.
and he said i've got to put after dark .
what do you mean after dark?
i said.
he turned round well i've got to move about discreetly he said.
and i said erm you talking about then?
and he said oh i've been taking it out of one of our own caravans, our own caravans he said.
new one.
oh there we are though he said, i don't want .
he said to me have you got it on tape?
i said no, no i haven't.
no.
and that's when he said he said i'll be going up one night when it's dark he said.
i'll take it out of one of our vans.
so i said what do you want me to do then, leave this mattress on the bed?
and you'll be taking it?
and i said or shall i it might not be done then i said so i'll have to air them.
oh yeah he said .
that's what i'll be doing .
yeah.
the microwave because the microchef 
mark i forgot to ask you what was in the caravans, the sleeping arrangement.
is there sleeping bags there?
is there quilts or what do you know?
so i said to her take kirsty's sleeping bag.
take your s and i said have you got a sleeping bag?
no.
i said well i gave mark a sleeping bag and er two blankets and a couple of pillowcases.
there must be pillows, i'm sure of it.
and erm i said take kirsty's sleeping bag and call in here for a sleeping bag and i'll give you a couple of blankets to go with it.
and i said i'll .
so she said yes.
she wants to know do you want buy her .
for a hundred and fifty pound.
why is she selling it?
no because er well she said 
well i told her today, i said look mark said there's no money.
or i said the money you don't spend .
i said when you come home trousers, what you want.
what did she say?
she said 
small ones.
doesn't matter if they're long in the leg.
he'll have to try the trousers on .
he'll have to try the shoes on.
but he said on wednesday and you'll pay in the money into the bank 
hannah was on.
oh god yes!
missed that and er oh i forget where she went to.
er venezuela was it ?
no.
erm where the leaning tower of pisa
pisa.
nice, that's very nice 
she don't go near a shop.
she don't spend no money now much.
oh yes she does.
oh yes she does.
i see, she went in the shop and she bought the bloody shop.
did she?
a jewellers shop.
and she bought a, a cameo brooch with a little ring on top that she could put a chain in as well.
you know, you can put the chain on it and
yeah.
pin it on the brooch.
and she gave two thousand lira for it.
much.
it was an awful lot cost two thousand lira .
she's going to next week she's going to the pope.
going to italy and a visit to the pope.
rome.
er italy he said.
but i thought er pisa was in italy.
ooh.
clare rayner.
god i do hate her.
look, she's getting bigger.
mm?
she's getting bigger as years 
she talking about?
still born babies.
what is all this?
i don't know.
what have you got?
the news and, oh yes it's only a few minutes lovey.
quarter past, no wait, quarter to six.
it's quarter to seven.
has your clock stopped?
quarter to seven.
so we've missed highway?
we've missed the bloody lot.
well hannah's only just been on a second ago.
and then the news.
mm?
quarter to seven.
let's have a look what you've got.
six forty five is quarter to seven isn't it?
mhm.
so it'll come on after this.
mm.
it's a documentary thing.
yes, i suppose so.
ends, oh look 
oh stupid old 
mm.
ooh.
oh yes.
where's ?
no i don't know.
i dunno.
has had to tear up its election coverage plans because tory ministers are scared to meet top industrialists .
mm.
top industrialists, those are big business boys.
chancellor norman lamont and treasury ministers were told er chancellor norman lamont and treasury ministers were to be grilled like labour spokesmen by a panel of businessmen and just one union leader .
but there was to be norman lamont and a tr and treasury ministers, three or four of them.
and there was to be the big industrialists, three or four of them.
same as labour was done the other day.
but the tories 
but the tories have scrapped agreed plans claiming the panel is not politically balanced.
the b b c two programme is regularly pr presented by peter jay who's panorama special on the slump was controversially axed last week .
they're not willing to stand up see erm er what's it, richard dimbleby was it richard or the other one?
was 
jonathon.
richard's dead.
no the boy, the other boy.
jonathon, dick
no.
what's his name?
the other boy.
there's two boys alive.
david?
mm.
i don't know one from the other by name.
but the one was at him yesterday and he, well he didn't know what to say next.
he did quiz him.
that's david.
is it?
on a sunday.
well and, and er lamont even said that er unemployment would get higher.
he even said so yesterday 
can't get no bloody higher can it?
oh it could.
twenty two percent vat if the tories get back.
mm.
jobless er tory jobless figures were exposed yesterday as a fraud.
the official unemployment total of two two million six hundred and four thousand one hundred is more than a million short of the real figure because the tories have found thirty ways not to count jobless people .
that right?
they say unless you've been unemployed six months you're not unemployed.
you're looking for a job.
they don't call it unemployed.
well you can't go on the list for six weeks anyway.
six months.
six weeks, yeah.
well if you haven't been working for six months you are looking for a job, you are not unemployed.
they don't call that unemployment.
course this is all voting propaganda again.
i mean when is it it's a disgrace to the social service workers isn't it?
to make them wear uniform.
they're getting them like prison officers and policeman and 
well it's the same as anywhere else.
if you work in marks and spencers you wear er their uniform.
if you work in the hospital you wear their uniform.
yeah.
that's only to advertise the place though isn't it?
marks and spencers and 
it isn't.
if you went into your clarke's shoe shop they've all got the same clothes.
it's it makes it so easy that the staff, one can't dress any better than the other.
they're all equal.
when you go to places like in the big stores the staff have all got the same type of apron er overall.
and that's for the customer, if it needs help they know who is who to go for advice.
yeah.
that's all it is.
but when you've got people stood behind a desk and serving you and doing nothing but serving you as you come.
they'll be wanting bank clerks to have uniforms next.
good god bank clerks have been wearing uniforms for these last three four five years.
oh i've never seen them.
well 
never seen that.
well they all have.
it's customary to go to work dressed in black or white or suits or 
not at all.
it's navy blue with flowered blouse they've got.
i've never seen it.
each bank's different.
well they've had them for years.
well in the midland bank and they were wearing them the last time you were there.
the electric board wears them.
the gas board wears them.
woolworths wear them.
mm.
and so really it is no different, just that they are making a song about it.
but there's no need to go to that prices.
a name on.
you can have the firm's name and give them a brooch or something.
well they've got them anyway, haven't they?
but val was on about it last summer.
they was talking about it then.
but she said that they had been so many months or when everybody else had a pay rise they only had a little bit.
and the extra that they should have had is going to pay for these uniforms.
oh.
didn't want the uniforms.
well a percentage is taken out of your money for them.
there's no doubt about that.
mm.
well that's what she was on about that, and and they was they were going 
well everybody has got to do that.
to go on strike because of it.
and really, it would be a good thing for val.
why?
well she's gotta pay so much for her bloody clothes.
she makes her own, a lot of them.
she's still gotta buy the material.
well she would rather have her own than be dressed up like looking like rolled doll she said.
cos they were all on about it.
they were talking about going on strike over it, about it anyway.
is it going to rain?
mm.
could have the odd little shower.
no er tonight it's supposed to rain.
david the chief economist of nat west bank expects output to rise by only point six percent this year.
a much lower rate than predicted by chancellor norman lamont on last week's budget.
mr also believes interest and mortgage rates will remain high .
so if people reads this paper which is the, which of the papers are read the most?
which is the most popular paper?
the mirror and the sun.
and today i think isn't it?
well the sun is conservative.
what's today?
conservative.
i don't know.
well the sun used to be a labour paper.
well didn't that er rupert murdoch take it over?
i don't know.
rupert murdoch?
and he's a conservative?
he's an australian isn't he?
mm.
whatever i can't remember.
but i knew it before it was the sun you see.
no, what do you call it?
yes, the sun.
it was the daily herald wasn't it?
when it came out first.
ooh.
senator ted kennedy revealed yesterday that he is to wed lawyer victoria who's father is to stand trial over an alleged fraud.
kennedy sixty started dating the thirty eight year old divorced mother of two last june.
i love her and her children very much he said.
victoria's father retired oh he's father's victoria's father, retired judge edmund denies fraud .
the kennedy's are in trouble every corner aren't they?
it's nothing to do with him.
no, but er i mean he's even marrying into trouble.
the whole of his family.
his father and all.
remand prisoners at a top security jail used a thin mobile phone to make threatening calls to court witnesses it was revealed yesterday.
an astonished guard alerted durham jail chiefs when he heard a phone ringing in a cell.
a search revealed the battery operated handset hidden under a mattress.
calls made from it were traced by police to the homes of witnesses due to give evidence in trials on tyneside.
at least one case is understood to be involved in a murder charge.
a top level enquiry is underway into the racket.
dubbed by prison wives the cellnet scandal after the cabinet mobile phones system.
visitors are thoroughly searched before they are allowed in to the jail which houses two hundred remand prisoners, killers, i r a terrorists and rapists, and the investigation will examine whether a prison officer may have brought in the phone.
one senior officer said it would be extremely difficult to smuggle one in, security is so tight here on visits .
oh well, there's always a lapse isn't there?
what time does this budget start today i wonder?
not that we've 
what budget?
heard it all before.
what budget?
this er, the labour giving their oh dear 
is barnado's advertising?
back again.
oh there.
make a credit card donation.
or for more information about our work ring .
right let's go and empty the washing machine.
put another load in.
it's not drying .
no i don't 
although the wind is rising apparently.
mm.
it's des o'connor tonight.
oh god.
so that's something to look forward to.
they were in a meeting.
yeah.
all of them, all of them
yeah.
except for one 
the little one?
aye.
yeah.
oh i said i wanna .
i said i've got a tape here.
i said i'm sure he'll want to listen to this?
and she said what do you mean?
i thought you were gonna go and tell him that he'd better see me today.
i, i've got a tape here and i'm sure he's gonna be interested in this.
or i'm taking my caravan off here right now.
oh yes.
get a forklift and put it in the bloody garden see.
so she said well you can't do that.
i said i bloody can do that.
that is my caravan, not yours.
i said i can do it.
and i will do it if that man's not gonna see me.
so with that call it coincidence, call it what you like but one of these low-loaders come in to pick up a caravan or something like.
and i said there you are, he's there waiting to pick my caravan up.
he was empty you see.
i don't know who he was.
and she said wait here mr and in she goes in to this bloody meeting and out he came.
and he said i'm sorry mr but you haven't got an appointment.
i said do you want me to have an appointment, do you want to listen to this tape?
or do you want me to take my caravan off here?
he said why?
i said because i feel i'm being .
i said i'm not getting a fair square deal here.
i said and not only i think that, other people on the site think so.
he asked me if i could wait five minutes.
when i'm in there.
and darren was on a day off and he's been .
and darren come in spoke to me and he says oh i danny.
i said no you bloody won't.
you'll get in that office with me.
i said i want him in there.
he sold me the caravan.
and i went in there.
i says now have you had any visitors from a couple of nights in my caravan.
no he said.
i said i think somebody's saying some untruth to me.
i said because i've got a tape here and there's a couple who'll go to court if necessary.
and i said is my caravan being cleaned weekly as people go out if they've got it for a fortnight fortnightly.
yes he said.
i said well you play that i said cos i've played it back.
and out he goes and gets this woman and in she comes with a chart with a woman's name the job number, that done it week by week or fortnight, whatever it does.
and that is all there and signed that she done the caravan.
it's her signature.
her signature.
that the caravan is cleaned.
it's got to be he says.
he said because people leave their dirty things and beds and all this kind of thing.
he said we cannot allow that.
well you can understand that.
yes, well he knows from experience.
yes.
he said we can't allow people .
he said if something like this got out, he said, we'd be out of business.
he said and do you know that we're a multi- million pound organization.
of course, of course .
mm?
he said we're not .
so i said well a couple approached my wife here on on saturday.
i said and they're very happy and ninety nine percent of the people on this site are happy.
solid like.
and i said i you tell me if i'm happy.
cos you've gotta convince me now, this morning, or my caravan's going off here.
i said and before you start that the caravan can't go for four years,on this tape.
did he listen to it?
oh yes.
bring that here.
chicken or is it 
it's chicken.
i don't want no chicken, i just want the chips.
do you want some lamb then?
no i just want some chips.
if you'd rather have the lamb i'll have chicken.
no no.
i just want some chips.
do you want tea?
i'll have coffee please.
anyway he wants to ask when this tape goes back, if he can have a copy of it.
he rung his managing director up there in front of me.
mm?
at hemel hempstead.
hemel hempstead?
yeah.
and he said he'd got a very 
pizza?
yeah, please.
serious complaint that he'd just got.
that i'm in the office with him.
and er
he to the managing director that i was in the office with a very serious complaint.
and making accusations.
and you were making accusations?
yeah.
i was.
yeah.
and he wanted to know what steps he could take.
well danny wanted to know if it was true.
so they asked they wanted to know how, how we got the tape.
so i showed him that letter you had.
mm.
and he asked me to a ask you to when they ra give the tape back if they could possibly supply a copy of it, of that tape to them.
in the meantime he's gotta write to these people.
they know the people.
mm?
to instruct them that their caravan must be taken off within twenty eight working days.
they know the people who were talking?
yeah.
i said they would.
mm?
and the caravan must be taken off within twenty eight working days.
well i think it was taken off this morning.
no, it's still there.
cos i saw that er bloke in er park landrover.
oh you saw him that day didn't you?
well they're moving and hunting caravans all the time mark.
they're on the roadways 
yeah well he he said he said
no i'm talking about i saw, actually saw that guy who's in our caravan
oh yeah?
in a landrover with a park bloke.
and all of a sudden three big juggernauts came into the camp and one of them was on the back of a truck.
they they they 
well er er sh 
they took three off the site.
did
she said she couldn't take it off.
no, he 
maybe it wasn't him then.
i just thought it looked like him.
he told me it was still there and that he'd been told he's got to write to them today and they've got to get it taken off within twenty eight days.
yeah.
cos she was trying to find a, a reason or an excuse to sue them for it.
she stated that.
mm.
it's all on the thing.
mm.
and he said how can they do that?
is it in the law?
they don't break the law.
they can't afford to break the law.
no well
do that.
oh my god!
come here are you walking that way.
oh baby it's 
too much work, i was just
nothing to do 
don't hurt him.
the corner.
i wondered if they might have 
stuck in the 
push.
helen, do you think it's 
no it isn't there in here look!
where?
you put it in.
they're big
they 
daddy 
he'll never manage with them.
wouldn't bother.
come here come here!
roll them back.
oh you've taken it off!
here look darling fingy go in thumby go in 
put your thumb in!
that one in that one.
look wait.
ah!
oh helen this'll never work!
you'll never be able to put his hand in here!
leave it mother!
i can't do it.
i'm not messing about like that all day.
i'll just take them back to the stall then.
look people wanna get past helen!
excuse me 
here are.
here's the bag.
take them back to the stall and get him pair of woolly ones come on.
don't you !
look come here, out the way!
ricky!
no !
good boy come here.
come on.
there are.
gotta .
see you ann
tara bye bye
see you next saturday.
i hope so.
these ones yep.
)
gotta 
what?
where is he?
those are ninety nine p, this time.
got up all night and walked round and round and round on his blooming bad leg!
ay?
then i go home and change.
don't you mean .
only a quiz.
are you putting a suit on?
good cos you won't get in a
where are them then?
no but he said i did quite well 
yeah well you wanna 
well he said i realise i with a 
your girlfriend's got no 
what?
it's not going off the rails 
with 
the boys at the 
no, you're not last year.
yes, yeah.
you're sighing.
no i haven't got a he i fancy , no !
not not like that well you now just
friends.
just, no no no no !
a bit more than friends.
yeah but 
got feelings.
good looking if she what i think !
just friends for the moment.
a platonic relationship.
at the moment.
at the moment out with me !
jammy devil!
you're a randy little bugger aren't you?
she'll go with and go then you got 
careful how you're driving.
i'm not driving.
well if you're driving then.
alright.
won't get drunk or owt will you?
course not he's never drunk in his life never been drunk at all not even 
come on.
got something wrong with his blood so he's not allowed to ricky!
come here.
mind the road!
come here good boy, come here come here.
now don't take them off.
come on.
i don't !
what's up?
okay then what about them ones?
one for only ninety nine p, so i had to make the money up they got 
i want a pair of them.
unless you get them a .
?
yeah.
come here ricky.
to pay for it all.
you're going to give me another one 
they've sold out they're gonna get them.
you get five for ninety nine p who wants to get 
you paying?
yep i bought the card.
go on that.
don't know i don't like it on the number one!
that's two 0 three .
that's !
i don't think er
!!
look what you , animal animal!
okay !
look we can if you're not quiet!
you what?
no.
mama !
oy!
pretty good are you?
what like a christmas ?
i thought i'd make this week, i had four last week.
oh.
those things up there.
i had to get one bag i didn't like to ask her for two.
they're in here?
ah my toe!
where are they helen?
i've got those things in, that's why.
they think they'd have your bags.
here's your nappy 
got all the toys in, that's why oh no!
sa the throw them out.
you'll have to throw these out.
throw them out where shall i 
outside , out the way.
are we 
yeah.
wrap it 
up again!
an an 
outside now alright.
another one.
thank you.
thanks a lot.
thank you.
definitely a bit better than .
where's he gone?
here.
here !
jonathan!
look!
i gotta go to gateway.
i know but we gotta swap that, that's it.
we've gotta brought 
oh.
that puzzle.
yeah.
i want that it's on the tape, turn it off.
he's dropped that bloody bag on my foot with all them tins in it!
ha.
look at my foot look!
it had nine tins of cream in it.
we were gonna buy a flat up there.
oh.
we were but they're tiny!
i know they're like the 
come here.
no, no no.
no they were only twenty six thousand.
god they were dear!
well quite, and then i said 
hey nanny !
no twenty six, i'm glad 
hey nana !
i went and had a look, that one went.
was it?
that one look.
yeah.
to this.
yeah it's big enough for one but it isn't it big enough for two, that's the one we went to see.
paul live in one of them well, did.
that's the one we went to see.
look lovely.
yeah but 
pay it all, but 
it's only got a bed in the bedroom you 
no erm 
wouldn't be able to bloody move!
they'd only paid fifty five quid.
open the door and ju open the door, and jump 
helen.
on the bed.
what?
you only paid fifty five quid, but i can't afford .
didn't see me, did you?
just open the door and jump on the bed, if you want to put a bed in.
no i should think it would be 
no you open the door and 
no i know no it's it's alright for one 
it's big for one though.
but not for two i mean me and stuart 
not exactly little are we,.
we had a look.
work .
i know well it's not your don't wanna open the door and can't open the door properly cos the bed's there,one step and you're on the bed.
leave it ricky!
no!
ricky, i'll belt you one!
today.
eh?
that's what i said.
look what they're doing on the bed?
.
no.
oh i if i 
get !
go on!
much time if i, if i'd been on my own.
like that stuart is he up there.
ah!
live and learn.
ha!
no 
no 
it's gone.
it's gone.
not as if you can wash them.
yes.
ricky!
see that !
what?
that bit .
nanny !
what darling?
these.
the what?
upstairs.
i think he means.
he's gone now gone to see if his horses have won.
it's a nine to four one !
nine to four, that's what he wants.
on the head.
half a dozen nine to four winners in the alphabet .
four hundred hundred to one.
that'd get good house, without a mortgage, ha.
straight back in now?
yeah i've been told.
you got gotta have 
really?
two pounds sixty to tell them how to do that six horses and if you win good prizes, you get a thousand or two with if you win.
rather than going to church.
you don't have any faith.
who?
dad dad.
no i gotta look in here, where are you going?
i've just got my 
oh no, i'm not having in there, with the pushchair and the 
i'll be in gateways then.
i won't be a minute.
quickly.
hello.
can i just slide past you madam please?
sorry ha ha ha.
that's quite alright, i don't mind.
just looking .
wha what can we do for you?
i'm just looking thank you.
you're alright?
yep.
mummy !
helen!
i'll just stop here to get the erm i'll stop here with her.
oh yeah and i'll run back then.
only i want only just get me a tin of hair lacquer, normal hold for tinted that's all i want.
normal hold, tinted.
or ooh no not or a super hold nothing like that.
alright.
i'll give you the money, but that's all i want silly me going 
put it away!
round, isn't it?
hey?
ah ba 
been a good girl who's a good girl then?
hey?
who's a good girl?
what?
good girl?
yeah?
been a good girl?
he's 
want to eat?
only joking!
er two please can i have another one, please?
bored?
no i'm just resting.
no thi this size, i got one bigger than the other one,
how much is this?
eighty five.
oh so don't have any.
i guess that's twelve quid then about, i forgot now.
that's a good idea.
where's my ?
standing at the checkout .
well 
how many's in here?
twenty.
oh yeah, oh give us some.
what?
fourteen quid left out .
do you want some?
i bought him some of those cheekies hey you know i'm said i knew i forgotten something out of gateways,don't you ?
filter coffee.
no where is she?
where is she?
boo!
aah !
shut up!
i've got two bags of cakes in here.
don't expect me to carry them!
eeurgh!
you'll never push a pushchair with that lot on, helen.
this one's got all weekend to sleep in it and her 
give me one of those bags, i suppose i've got to carry them!
go and get them.
yeah i know she did well i suppose we better really 
go ahead, right open your legs.
i'll be just over there.
yeah right good exercises.
what?
mummy.
come here hold my hand aha properly !
scruffy little bugger!
he's pulling his trousers down !
ha.
ha he's 
he's got his hands down in his pockets in the .
oh ho.
hands in pockets he's copying 
where's he gone?
him you just can't see him,jonathan .
aha.
kept on pulling his trousers down and putting his out in his pockets.
they're all hanging round his ankles.
aha ha, typical.
i know baggy aren't they?
bell bottoms.
it's only cos he's doing it.
fashion freak.
no steven's that's jonathan .
yeah jonathan does that, ah aha.
oy!
what?
bib bib bib !
bib bib bib bib!
i was being a car.
that was a car, yeah.
was a bus was it?
was it a bus 
or a car?
hello david.
and you?
alright 
bib bib bib
yes it was quite good 
when you meeting your mate then?
three o'clock.
ooh have i got a ?
got time to help her with this shopping and bloody come and get your mail!
pick up one of them bags for her i weren't watching anyway out 
come here ricky.
come here.
i can't hold that just hold the trolley with the bags in there.
ha.
come here.
er we'll go 
just ricky!
doesn't make round here, you can have the with 
it's our house cos i we had a look at that one, that flat 
what does it say,?
it says go across the back 
ma mum!
hey quiet in this shop.
no they're not in there i thought they it would be dark.
what did you put it on there for?let's sit down sit down!sit down!.
oh there's 
try london.
lived in london, she's going out with someone, living with someone and she's five months pregnant!
think i couldn't remember the way back.
oh my god! she'll be happy!
that's all she ever wanted 
she's staying over there.
was baby weren't it?
she's staying over there now she's pregnant.
weren't it?
bloody hell!
all she ever wanted was a 
erm 
baby.
yeah five nearly six months.
she's not il a bloody what do you call it ?
at no.
oh.
she left before she was pregnant.
oh.
got pregnant over there.
bloody hell!
what?
hoo hoo.
who?
steven.
our steven?
yeah.
why what's he done?
alright th the car blew up on a dual carriageway there's
that's right.
a big bang i'm driving there's this great big bang and the bonnet lit up 
he went.
the bonnet lit up
oh god!
right
thought great!
it's staying on the dual carriageway, well i went round steven's to see if he thought to tow it round mine cos the already been on my back once oh no he said i've only just walked in from work i'm having my tea then i'm going to bed he said, there's no way i'm towing no motor for the he said, just f off!
well well we'd have 
what did you say?
done it for him!
so you should have said to him 
going mad because 
wait till you need some help.
bernie's been out at ten o'clock at night before with him.
aha.
that really got on my nerves that did.
he comes round, and just say no, i'm not doing nothing for you.
oh.
what about when you borrowed our battery when yours wouldn't go?
that's what i mean.
just say no and if he again say no.
when i come out .
when i , but he won't i put them all out, in fact .
.
ah oh.
go on.
no i won't cos the police were at the car no .
sounds like it were a robbery.
come out again police come out of the ca er er they were at the car there oh i said that's my car, he said oh yeah, i said yeah, he said, what's your name?
felt like it.
checked with his radio, he goes alright then phoned back to the police station on his radio, he said it's not stolen the owner's now here he said, can you please get it moved?
i said well i'm trying to i said this bloke what happens to be my oldest brother i said, and he won't even tow it for me!
so he said, oh why not?
steven thinks that just be i only just got in he said, i'm having my tea and he said there's no way i'm gonna do nothing like that at this time of night when i've been fourteen hours at work so then he stormed off back home again so he said well you'll have to move it cos it's obstructing the dual carriageway someone might come round that corner fast and hit it.
he said it's not an offence he said if you've broke down, you can't help, he said but you've gotta really move it so i went round to paul and there was about seven or eight blokes that pushed it all the way round to bernie's.
no you don't forget helen he could come down 
i don't forget things like that.
and ask for any help in doing his car don't go to work or can he borrow this, just say no i'm sorry you couldn't help us and i'm your sister so now i can't 
i know 
help you.
he has been like that for since he's been with her he has 
i know about it.
he used to help us with anything before he got with her he'd always help me he always looked happy, now he 
mum mum mum !
but now he's with her, he don't wanna now.
well, you can just do the same with him.
i
you're not that bothered are you?
well no but i like to think that steven's still my brother.
yeah well i my son but he don't treat a mother.
but he's not he's not that when he's with her.
he wouldn't of come th wa on his saturday before his birthday he wouldn't of come and seen me unless he thought he was getting something out of it.
i asked him to i told him to.
yeah exactly!
didn't come cos he wanted to did he?
he 
no 
couldn't wait to get away as soon as he got his bloody present, he was 
i was 
gone!
i know.
ricky.
you should of kept his present.
don't worry he's not getting nothing for christmas but a card and that's it can't even come and say hello, so bugger him!
doesn't bother me you, stu and i have been broken hearted a few months ago and i've cried over him not coming to see me but not any more.
i've not cried!
well i have.
yeah and it turn them different.
how do you think you'd feel like she didn't want to know you when she grew up.
because her daddy drink drinks in there in the pub.
he always in the pub.
does daddy go in there drink drinks does he?
no.
does ricky go in there?
no he's never been there.
you've been in there have you?
when you come across here that bag mum.
i'll just leave it there he'll be at home with his mother now watching them on the telly.
where's your ?
there ricky.
who's in there?
look!
ha ha ha is it big?
big.
stuey stuey going in there.
can't move inside there!
gone home now.
gone home now.
gone home to see his mummy.
gone to see his mummy like mum 
i've had a 
that that
oh go on, you heavy boy!
careful.
oh boy 
oh boy !
when we get right to the again.
oh yeah got a tre got and tree and all the decorations are there.
i'm not putting them up though!
he ain't putting them up is he take them down to helen's then some lovely decorations we'll ask him for them helen.
no.
why?
there's a lovely tree and a lovely decorations there could do with tree they're not gonna use it, you might as well have them.
charge.
for the kids.
charge.
no.
why?
mightn't you?
did you get in before christmas?
oh i don't think so, the way he's going!
so the council informed seth if i don't move in a month i'll have to put an application in 
and put another one in.
bloody hell!
are yo you signed the papers?
yeah well, no yeah.
no?
got got that form didn't we?
yeah and it said go in next 
yeah i 
week to sign them.
yeah but george 
hold onto there.
i can't go 
where are you?
before so i lent them, so he's gone in i go by the same time as him we both gotta sign them 
and you both sign.
together and he's not going in there.
oh well post through there, yeah?
if they do ah i don't think i'm gonna be a bit bloody pleased!
jonathan, do you know back slash?
you know what jodie and david's ?
come in here please.
look all we do.
ooh 
lie down dog !
who's there mum 
i know it's a dog.
out!
out!
beattie come over here and take your coat off come on then take your coat off.
er
no!
dog.
dog yes.
in there
should of been
okay!
they've lost as far as money's concerned.
what.
that's not yours for a 
stinks of dog in here, dunnit?
ya
big sticks
hooray!
all over the place.
he's been outside, hasn't he, so there's 
bound to be.
still stinks 
dad 
in here, well they must have bloody hamsters then.
whistles 
something bloody stinks, dunnit?
can you smell it?
hey!
do you want a fag?
did you have enough money for that prescription?
oh you don't have to pay do you?
no there was a full time education i put that supposed to pay for them.
you're not are you, on yts, you don't.
yeah cos i ain't got a form i haven't filled out a form, well i have, but i ain't got it back.
just put that on.
i put full time education on it ed that's a aren't i so i'm 
mm.
full time education.
who's that?
dog.
have to go every week on the train 
who's that?
to
cat.
sod it!
what's it for, painkillers?
transve something.
you should of bloody gone and got it, it'll be shut this afternoon, some of th chemists.
boots are open, you're alright.
boots are, i know.
i ain't got a pen that's why i didn't fill it in.
daddy.
just have to .
there's !
what?
hurt?
hurts, yeah getting told where my knee hurts.
ha?
hurt 
okay.
hurt.
does it hurt, does it?
your a right mother ooh yeah it does hurt.
oh shut up!
got an up on top the thing look.
somebody want a cup of tea?
oh well i will in a minute.
this it?
what?
that one .
ca you take your coat off?
yes.
take your coat off.
a mac mac
music, yeah, don't touch!
don't touch the music.
ann's wants to be a stress attack at the minute ooh .
a ann
ann love.
hat.
yes.
looks like lee, don't he?
i haven't got any headphones so i can't have a 
dad!
listen to yourself.
what got 
you can't 
oh i got them but i mean i ain't brought them with me.
course you could use a normal
it's got a radio and everything on it.
what a play it back, with it?
really expensive they are.
hey?
i'm only borrowing it.
you wanna play it back?
i ain't got no headphones with me.
put it on there.
the recording ones are very expensive.
they're not.
at least it's sixty, seventy quid.
it's only lent to me for a week 
bu she's back next friday for it.
probably to record it, what did you expect?
it's got a radio and tape on it.
now ricky !
aha.
tell him he's gotta er his prescription.
come here!
thank you.
mum?
what?
where's that gone?
why ask me?
well why ask me now ?
ooh ah ah god!
how can you go to a nightclub tonight like that?
i will, ha.
what?
step last night.
yeah look what you done to yourself.
ricky!
put it down !
just blow my nose 
no.
probably.
oh yeah?
no i read that one, ha ha read the sun.
what's dad get now, sun or the star, or does 
erm.
normally get two?
that having a word with the dog i'm gonna 
does he like the dog?
yeah i 
or is he fed up of it?
amount of crap 
just where 's he craps on the floor, you have a massive pong when that happens.
don't do it in one, it does it all over the floor 
don't you like that?
little dollops all over, and there's one spot, little 
well why doesn't he put bloody newspaper there?
no it does all over the place, wherever put newspaper down, he does it on the carpet so kept doing it by the cooker so we put newspaper down there, and put the toys away, see they was in the way you see, put newspaper down there and then next wouldn't have that,.
ooh god!
leave that!
who rick?
who rick?
or me da da da da da 
ha!
oh dear.
oh da da 
ricky leave her!
no it should be alright tonight, nothing out of the ordinary.
hoo hoo.
shall be quite glad.
ah.
look at this, look my tea's made.
your tea?
all to myself.
it's what we stop urgh!
what we did last night, stop for a chicken on the way over there.
where did you get the ?
wahhhh !
well last weekend i bought a 
no go like that 
bought it for the dog and about fifty quid of it altogether 
yeah.
on the way home cos i bought a tenner for that for forty quid.
and all the money went in the bank.
you, you !
so i got in my leg.
don't know where to go though don't know where the best places are don't know where they are.
hey, he's out!
going about five t , half four, five o'clock time going to cambridge first.
want a cup of tea?
yeah 
yeah 
yes please you gotta meet him somewhere first, provided 
that's late.
he's going.
mm.
what's his name?
brian.
look, look.
we got a bloke called rubbles why have travellers always got funny names?
they have 
why 
because if we told them that 
why?
there's balloo peggy 
yeah they're only nicknames.
no real names balloo, peggy fibi, violet walter they're all our, real old fashioned names there's er fibi, peggy, balloo violet erm 
walter
a 
sophie well that's not really a weird name but she's there as well bernie knows them all
a ma 
they all know bernie.
ah yeah bu a 
and they got all 
they've all got brothers called ricky lee,jo joe boy, john boy an billy 
mm.
je boy and stuff like that they all call them boy at the end of the name john boy an 
that's why he's only got a boy 
joe boy 
it's what they call roseanne girls aren't they?
ricky lee an all that lot as if bernie don't know ricky lee is a bloody name and erm lisa marie is as well.
that's what steve don't call his if he has a girl.
i know beca that's only cos we were going to call her lisa marie weren't we?
oh i don't know .
we were gonna call her lisa marie but then i said bernie said that because mum done so much for me during 
mum 
ar when i was pregnant with ricky an all the rest of it and called her anna marie, after mum
ma 
cos we called it changed it from lisa to anna for mum.
ooh look look.
he da da 
with 
lee 
dee dee dee 
girl i'm i'm going out with tonight see her name's panja and it's spelt p a n j a
panja.
no tanja tanja, i can't pronounce the second name.
do you want a couple of these?
she foreign then?
her dad is italian.
i'm not hat, i'm not.
ha ha, oh dear noddy.
i'll tell you something as well.
what?
you're paying for this boy.
got lovely handwriting, look.
hey.
say her sister's called sophia
er girl is 
janice 
cos this is 
there's tania, sophia and what's her name can't remember, it's an italian name the other one.
what am i?
very weird name, she's got her other sister.
don't say anything ah dear, come here 
ricky come here.
come here.
kettle's off.
oh dear 
oh dear come on don't cry, you be a tough little boy you'd be tough little boy didn't you?
oh no what's happened to the kettle?
do
try plugging it in, helen.
i have.
try switching it on, helen.
i have !
try putting some water in it !
oh shut your gob!
hey!
no there's panja and sophia an and i don't know what the other one's name is 
very weird.
me me mo sit on .
it's a seat.
well funny girls ' names.
who?
said oy
oy oh.
what?
foll 
that's not her name!
what was the name then?
amanda.
who was it, folly called then?
amanda .
oh.
she don't like amanda though.
hey 
name a horse folly !
dog !woof woof oy oy oy !
cut two white holes in it, then send them in the bank, it'll be chocolate!
oy, oy !
down.
er, you got a pen then, so i can fill out this prescription.
here are here are.
somewhere, but i don't know where.
up here.
you want some new words on that thing then do you?
what?
i'll talk in back slang, if you want.
go on then.
what?
shut your face 
he don't like wanna get on my shoulder.
what shall i say?
oh oh oh 
talk in traveller's traveller's 
working?
yeah.
talk in traveller's talk at me 
could be back slang.
what does that mean?
well you say i don't know if you watch neighbours, do you?
no very rarely.
well you put another word in between each letter of the other word sort of like
ah ma mum 
put it on neighbours it's an alibi 
mum 
where they'd say
mum.
first letter of one word put allay and then the last letters of the word sort of like he helen will be halibin like that you see and that's how we talk at work if we got a get 
mum , mum 
if we gotta wind someone up sort of like one of the girls fancies a bloke she'll tell it to his face, but in back slang so he don't know she's saying they go er, what?
plenty of women down there?
loads.
must i bet they're all 
dad!
made redundant,
sort of like, talk about this toilet, say i'm going toalibi to i go,toalibi 
allay i to loogoo is to galagy is go tolagee is two galaga tolagol and 
and we all speak like that at work, ha.
ricky, leave it!
get out!
i don't want you.
daddy.
yeah, kettle's gone 
kettle has gone off.
i don't it will water.
take his advice .
not you either ricky leave the dog alone.
what?
leave it!
i 
remember to stroke it gently.
oh!
er er er 
you yuk!
i went to that at jasons' i think i'll go and find that erm
aah!
i just don't know what was wrong with it, i've work, jason said ja we a subject turned to what he wore in bed ja and jason said nothing, right but he said when it's winter i wear my t-shirt and the pants and i cuddle up to my glow worm and we was all taking the mickey out of his glow worm, right so i've come home and i read the paper and i'll see glow worm in it, so i cut it out and give it to him and he stuck it up in the factory !
so every time everybody goes past and goes how's your glow worm boy today and takes the mickey out of him!
mm.
i said, and roy was being rude though cos i said to roy, i said, haven't you got a glow worm, he said no mine's got eyes on the end of it!
mine don't light up,it's got eyes on the end of it !
what did our jason say?
stroke him nicely, her nicely whatever it is.
no 
that's a nose.
coco the clown.
mummy, mummy!
what have you called it coco for?
woooh!
cos it's 
you dog you no not no 
what you doing?
no if anybody go to sleep 
yeah 
i mean before , so i said yeah i said er
dad dad, hurry !
hold i've gotta my words on you go go on couldn't tell anything else about it, i said yeah it had an orange on and he said, you got the lea oh course 
dad dad 
should be erm
no.
he said
you want drinky?
mhm.
tell mummy 
apparently he's still got a lead
tell mummy.
i said yeah but i mean 
look!
hang on a minute!
i sa i said the lead
you got our gloves?
me mees 
i've got our gloves.
dog's got the gloves.
get our gloves.
daddy.
get out dog !
i said yeah,lead.
tell mummy.
i want a drink.
hang on a minute, you can have some of mine.
mummy.
aye?
i said yeah the collar on 
i said the collar and the lead, match so he bought the collar out of his pocket and goes 
mama 
he said por i said yeah then i said 
mummy.
can i have a look at the lead?
he said oh you can't have the lead 
mummy .
they match, and he said well he said you can pick it up 
and that's all !
me me me me.
ah! ah ah ah.
your feet that time and get on with it.
aah !
.aah !
helen.
yeah alright.
just leave him, be.
bloody , can't afford no chips,go and get us some.
ah ah ah ah.
well you can't get some, when it's late hey?
oh!
ask him?
will you pop and get some chips if i get you some money?
get yourself some, if you want.
ah ah 
aye?
yeah.
will you?
aah !
will you?
yeah if you let me pay.
i don't know 
we've gotta wait till they go.
if you go in the chemist shop, they have pens
only have 
for signing 
he had one, two, three
shut up !
no, one want one?
shut up!
shut up!
several portions, gave us all all the scraps and salt and vinegar.
if i can go to and get two pounds of 
no better get them several portions.
ooh i will pay i wi 
get salt, the scraps and salt vinegar we'll eat.
got a pen then?
no i kept on meaning to get one though.
oh wah!
oh down our chemist.
go in the chemist, they'll have a pen inside 
twenty 
prescription.
what happens boys out over there.
no i don't have to cos i always fill mine in when i'm in there.
i know you don't have to, you told me.
that that.
matter.
aha that!
where's my other leg?
ee.
nana you !
mummy got some, look.
let's see.
ee that!
ricky pass mummy the ashtray?
ah!
ah!
ah!
ah!
er er er er 
i'm going out 
that one?
tomorrow night then have that bit, go on then.
hold it properly.
is it there?
hold it properly.
don't be too long cos i've gotta go home.
that's nanny
pu 
is it?
gotta put this in, ain't i so i'll say can i come ba i
oh ricky!
i'm gonna say can i come back over for it.
mm.
get a table 
yub yub yub yub yub good girl.
mind don't spill the tea shouldn't make it so bloody 
that pale.
that 
why don't you come?
come on dad.
no.
come on.
where's your letters anyway, you should be looking at 
twelve.
not nine pound got fourteen pound and a a bit eight pounds tax, and five pound in national insurance, so i bought home eighty four pound shut the door!
where is the letters, anyway?
in here i'll look for them when you're out.
where's the dog?
don't slam the door see you 
that's not bank.
aye get in!
bank's usually got a window envelope innit?
dog!
he's so .
oh no!
that one's a bit burnt cos bernie left it on top of the cooker where's the dog ?
out here go on, get in!
come on 
let's just, you know, open the door.
i cou couldn't see touch my leg get here !
just don't kick it!
might kick , don't kick mine leave it 
come on.
smells burning.
what is it?
no dog!
let her drink that tea!
warm, warm.
yeah, drink it up then.
now cool it is.
drink it up now.
yes 
my shoulder really aches.
look in there!
ha where?
no touch!
hey oh.
oh dear!
oh oh.
then they're be moving we'll be nearer then.
hee ah hee 
come down occasionally can't you?
how many tapes you got there?
twenty got to fill the bloody tapes in a week, if i could.
yeah.
don't you wear it a does, do they know you wear it at work?
can't wear at work.
no, in the canteen.
i ain't done it yet.
oh.
still gotta out.
oh and how you 
pocket
yeah.
and clip the thing on there and they'll think it's a bloody radio or something!
yeah you wanna get some headphones for that as well, then that makes all
i've got some headphones.
yeah well they're not made to work are they 
they're at work 
cos they 
no i can't afford this.
no you don't plug them in, just put the wire in your pocket then they'll think they can just listen to music.
well then they won't talk to me they won't take any notice anyway, if they do, i've got a letter i can tell them what i'm doing.
go on expla a letter will make a 
well drink up!
people if they say what the hell are you doing.
you what?
hey down!
just drink it 
she's stirred him up.
properly!
if people say to you 
i'm drinking it properly 
what the hell are you doing, you give them that and if they say they don't wish to be on the tape you have to erase their voice.
oh.
na 
some people might not object although it's anonymous
me.
no one knows whose voice it is but 
it's nanny 
me go me go.
i've got about ten of them to give people if they ask we what are you doing.
look a 
ack is it?
yeah, can't you tell they're from bloody dictionary,all the wording on the letter.
ack and i got
i get twenty five quid for doing it.
mum.
mm.
mum?
what?
well i get twenty five quid's worth of vouchers from marks and spencers i shall buy stuart a shirt, i'll give it for something for christmas, won't it?
see that erm yet together they will provide the permanent record of how the english language is spoken in the 
ouch!
nineteen nineties.
yeah.
mm.
thought to start, it'd be a bit of fun no harm is it 
aah!
you !
i'll bite rick and more ricky, don't bite back!
rick.
and my turn.
well leave it then!
are you weed yourself?
mm well 
leave it!
it's no wonder it bites you ricky.
it's alright.
yeah ricky yeah bit.
helen,he'll hurt it.
he we go girl ooh which one up here now sit still!
keep still.
me ear.
anna !
i don't want it, put it up there.
father.
shouldn't do that.
ooh ooh.
say nan.
yes,
da da da 
likes him.
look 
full of moans and groans as usual.
nan?
look nana.
ha?
that dog's trying to lick that 
probably wants a drink.
ma ma .
wants some food, i know that.
well give it some blooming food then!
all it eat right, is since the stuff's been back last sunday, he's had what we eat, what our scraps left over from dinner.
cor .
he don't eat 
ah 
going 
ah, ah 
get him something dogs 
like to eat.
well go and get it fed then!
go in jonathan.
thought the tin was out there.
ah ah get off my .
mine!
mine!
na na na na.
mine!
mine!
it ain't a bad night look we got thirty eight pence on label and it was twenty nine.
mm.
twenty nine pence.
na na na na na na 
i'll fit in it.
yeah go on.
here boy!
look wait!
a 
yeah.
will dad be in that?
no.
that
no touch are you a good boy.
yeah.
are you?
where's dinner?
i dunno if you're supposed to put water in this dinners or what?
no it's best leave it dry in a separate 
what and put it in a ?
yep it's separate separate water.
i dunno 
here are , dinner.
bit of mutton i you ought to call it mutton.
how?
come here away from it, so it can have its dinner come on.
oh no.
come on, leave it alone.
no look.
it's got a whole tin in that dish that'll fill it up won't it?
never mind.
oh see him.
well i know, but he didn't have top dog meat since he's been here.
not since he's been back for a week.
say that whole tin will do it, won't it?
today i tried to get a whole tin every day, it's just because it happened.
say that.
leave her alone, come on!
you have been feeding it though?
course i have, been giving it a what we've had, like when the kids didn't eat their dinner or we ain't eat all our dinner been giving it what's left on the plate, well
and he's had chops and mash and all that lot.
bananas.
had a bit of everything chips we'll put it all in one dish an it'll eat it all.
shouldn't pe leave her to lick the plates though.
no, no i scrape them from the plates into its own dish greg come here let's have you having dinner come on.
me me me eat it.
yeah uncle jonathan's gonna get you some.
me me eat.
that was .
me me me me mu 
ricky come in here please darling.
see jonathan's gonna get you some
jonathan's gotta get you some leave him 
alone.
me mu 
or out ricky it will!
look at that!
that will bite it back at you, if you just go near it, when it's having dinner and i don't like 
woof woof 
for john
arghh!
come and sit down anna uncle jonathan's getting you some now come on, come and sit down.
eat.
michael was it got ever so big.
yeah.
well we gotta buy it 
for one three quid 
ahh!
ahh!
well they all go in the pet shop, all but one.
yeah?
i got to go.
funny looking thing.
no it's just that erm, mandy and jeff tried it when she wasn't on them her little 'un out the way please ricky can i have a look?
oh yeah.
what it is.
ow ow ow 
out!
out dog.
daren't lo stick my fingers in too much, he might bite me, cos he got teeth now well they're all in there scrambled up together oh there's bernie and jeff.
hi.
hello 
erm 
granny.
yeah i don't 
dad?
dad?
dad?
yeah i know.
look you can read the questions.
hello, hello, hello.
oh.
no that was 
try bill?
hey daddy !
hi ya dad.
i said there might be a connection.
daddy, daddy daddy?
do you wanna take your coat off.
what?
daddy.
look puppy.
yuk!
yeah.
is that your cortina?
ah dada 
it's a renault.
i hear you want one ?
help.
you got a case.
i hear you want one.
yeah i do.
ain't got a case 
mum?
got a case for it 
mum?
no cos the dog'll bite you, cos it's having its dinner,
you're not.
cos it's having its dinner if you got a case you 
me me me me biscuit me 
it only wants to go for a little 'un now and i'll say, right that dog'll be out the door.
mum?
definitely.
yes.
that dog.
ricky!
tell him.
stop it now.
cos he's eating.
he's eating ricky.
we haven't seen him 
how?
don't kick it !
no!
no!
kick.
don't take the piss!
no 
did you?
that's bad that is, innit?
very bad.
how are you then ann?
ow!
alright 
her tapes are finally in.
have you finished with your crap, yeah?
that stuff down there.
cos it's in that 
what's that?
box all mine.
what is it?
identity card.
oh.
they're taping what you're saying.
who?
erm, a man ca 
anybody.
a man went to mum's door and asked her 
oh better turn it off.
a oh oh.
yeah bernie
mm 
mm.
bernie!
bern!
hey !
bern?
what?
look 
where i gotta look?
didn't you bring any helen?
what, i can't see them thirty three i have you leave them milk tubs there cos i've had enough of them no leave it.
what have you done?
cleared out the fridge leave them we've got many of them to go.
i know, i see him the other day.
no i asked her to start but that's all, and i kept that in the meant to be setting up a place in the posh area but they gotta have 
doesn't work, though.
didn't he mend it?
cos you're not supposed to stick the knife in, are you?
no.
no.
i do that, i've done that before.
nan did that and buggered hers up.
i know that'll take a long time to do it though won't it?
you get some boiling water in a bowl and stand in th heat of the boiling water will melt it what i used to do.
not so quick is it?
yeah get a little bowl and stand it in.
get somewhere.
hel?
i might have to do that wet, hey?
helen?
what?
next weekend.
moving?
next weekend.
what, next thursday?
next saturday.
what afternoon?
i don't know.
because i'm gonna have to still have the saturday for my shopping, aren't i?
got work tomorrow.
do it friday night go friday night.
no what was i saying, oh yeah, when the machines at work break we got the fitter there cos you've always got a fitter about, ain't you, when they go wrong?
and they're always going wrong.
what?
well anyway this woman the machine got water on the switch and every time you turn the switch on 
mummy let me have my blanket.
it bleeps 
hello.
so the boy went to pam and got a
hello.
hairdryer to dry it out right and he's drying this switch out with the hairdryer and all and everything turned the switch on and about five hundred volts were on shock so they had to call 
might get one in you.
they had to call a special engineer 
is that what happened 
out.
yeah well he reckoned 
they had to call a special engineer 
what a wha what are they?
out.
who are they?
yeah you must, did you, did they put salt and vinegar on them.
no.
have to a have a slice of bread or something, won't you?
ah ah ah!
here's yours.
hundred milligrams.
what is it?
hundred milligrams.
let's have a look at the packet.
all readers hang on a minute careto profaine good stuff.
i 
alright .
read all of this stuff 
at that at that.
wonder why i gotta double it?
at that.
don't know i sink the ,
i went and turned the bottom as well got i 
it's a blooming extra one you're supposed to have twenty eight thirty.
a third.
what's that?
tablets.
you ca yeah 
yeah you can't 
for jonathan's poorly leg.
for my poorly leg.
what's that?
ta.
oh no!
put i'm in full time education tick it pay for it she said er what you on then?
dada.
i said i'm on a yts, she went oh she said i don't know if you're for them, i said er well if you don't i'll find out and then tell you at the she goes, yeah, we'll do that she says but i do , i don't know if owe have to pay for them or not, you know she said i think you're supposed to have a form.
yeah.
salt.
come on you two.
big bern.
mine's alright you heard bernie little thingamy cup with the
there's the salt in the cupboard ooh you got the vinegar.
ricky ricky ricky me me, me me me me.
blow it, it's hot pull it down so she can reach.
ha ha.
eat it oy!
what?
eat it.
ah bernie.
oh thought the dog eat it, cos they won't eat their chips.
thursday the twelfth of december at eleven am.
no my chips!
what is it?
you are the lord thought you said there were that one it doesn't say 
no, mine!
me do it.
no because they cou first, that's been here about three weeks and the little one's only been here two weeks.
oh initial training will be on the twelfth of december.
finished.
best day to have it on.
we shut down first friday something 
what is this?
i don't know got my christmas party, that day at work.
well they can see you.
no a i've gotta go, i've gotta get on the training cos
ay!
at atch, atch.
hot, mm.
hard work got a christmas due about that as well.
good.
ow!
ow!
owwww!
ow!
what?
don't 
no!
got exactly the same haven't you,?
put it in last year.
!
oh well 
no!
wanna drink.
no.
?
first training centre.
i'd say it's not tech was, yes.
no.
cos that's a girl a college 
don't they have a day release thing?
yeah.
yeah.
well
is that hill street training centre?
i'm just saying there was mine was tech, i expect the college at the old college.
yeah, cos you been the college up there didn't you?
yeah that's the only bit i hated i'd rather have been at work all week and i didn't 
i think you 
i didn't used to like going to college once a week.
in the chip shop we bought some fish out the fryer and put in the top and straight away got them bloody tongs picked it up and poured the bloody grease off it and put it in the bloody bag thought it was terrible.
well it was if it's only just come through from the fryer 
yeah i know but 
they had literally poured it off.
ta take me out.
there dog.
he's eaten hers off the floor.
yeah.
i'm a good girl cat.
no don't poke in the head cos granddad's can't work.
mm.
got a packet for when we get home so i that's got to make my .
i i ooh ah oh ah!
ah!
ah!
ooh mind jonathan's knee darling, it's poorly.
out the way!
got a scrap .
what?
new carpet then
ah!
look cleaner than this.
ah!
never mentioned it.
what?
leave it.
what?
no!
hat.
hat 
da ad.
much more of that without anything 
at 
else.
ay!
no don't play trampolines sit down please now !
she's gotten them all round here 
sit!
look.
hello.
dad.
look at her look salty .
yeah.
were not having them.
i mum chi chi chip
no!
are you gonna sit down with ricky and eat them?
yeah.
hey?
me me me.
are you going to sit down?
me.
sit down then sit down then.
sit down ricky.
me i i 
sit down over there with ricky and i'll bring them to you.
tripping over her shoe laces.
sit down then.
sit down then.
you jammy little pest.
here are.
look at her all sweet and innocent, and when i turn away she'll nick a chip i can see you sit down!
sit down!
there.
oh chip!
here are.
chip!
do you want a smack bum?
that's what you get if you got a throw a paddy now ain't gonna eat them?
back nana.
yes.
back nana.
she's alright sitting there.
mm.
dad yeah, right 
what?
in there?
dad.
nanny soon have to go where do i go?
.
where am i going?
who am i going to see?
dunno 
pardon?
stuart.
stuart?
yeah.
we'll pay twelve ninety four wouldn't you ?
no.
well what colour they made your leg stop hurting.
and then 
ha .
i hope to say if used to work.
ooh yeah.
ha ha ha.
what col ol our?
i wouldn't live with your father if he took drugs, i'll tell you be dead.
they don't taste of nothing if they're capsules.
they do.
perhaps cos there's usually sort of like a thin plastic
do you wanna taste one?
ar'nt they?
what?
mum?
you wanna taste one?
usually sort of like a thin plastic over
wanna taste one?
over the powder innit?
do you wanna taste one?
no they're dissolvable plastic innit?
what is that?
usually got no taste.
all that matters is your leg gets better dear.
daddy?
won't he be wondering where 
no.
you are?
who?
father.
what was that?
oh that lad next door.
oy !
now where was that?
under the table you'll find a chip .
the one lives next door to me.
definitely crossword time, i've gotta have a go at it but there's not a lot left in there nothing in the teapot 
no it's 
sorry, do you want another one?
do you want me to go and make you another one?
no that's alright, i'll do it.
he is erm
he's got a twice as big a cup as you have.
no i haven't.
oh you have.
alright?
yeah.
yeah, alright, yes.
yes mum chuck us the paper mother.
aye?
see how well we do this week.
are you warm enough?
yeah, it's not cold, are you cold?
no i'm alright.
page.
okay okay one, two, three that's it.
really.
right, are you ready girls?
yeah.
yes stuart.
alright, here we go then.
girls, we're called girls now, that sounds 
ha, ha, ha, ha.
good.
fish of a carp family, five letters .
oh god .
yeah let's not bother 
perch.
doing it, cos that wo , let's not bother doing the questions.
could be a perch it's quite safe.
yes.
i don't think so er ha
a mulch?
but i don't know any others.
carp.
no, i want one of the carp family never mind,a riddle in a cracker, five letters .
mot oh motto.
yes.
motto.
easy.
yeah.
should do it in pencil.
ancient name for the spanish peninsula, six letters 
erm now that's one for you.
what is it?
iberia.
mhm.
a young eel, five letters 
elver.
neutered cock bird, five letters .
oh what do they call it, what you have at christmas instead of?
capon.
capon.
capon.
it's not allowed now actually.
capon?
is that it?
no can't sell you a capon any more, not now.
can't he?
why not, european market again?
i don't think it's anything to do with that, but i know there's a you can't have a capon any more.
oh you can't an all.
tree or shrub with white or yellow flowers, six letter .
could be loads, couldn't it.
yeah here's one
it's white or yellow forsythia, they've got white yellow but
they've got yellow on same white as .
no?
no religion revealed through mohammed .
islam innit?
the russian wolf hound, six letters .
erm.
no takers?
no.
one nautical mile per hour, four letters 
knot.
one of the gospels, four letters .
try mark, luke or john.
ruth.
better leave that one.
mark, luke or john innit?
matthew, mark oh eh, sorry the gospel it might be .
we'll have to wait until we get 
or they are 
it's only matthew that it's not .
matthew, mark, luke and john yeah all those i got.
meeting for spiritualistic phenomena .
a seance that's what 
spell that.
shirley wanted us to go to.
who did?
that's what shirley said, are you coming to church so she go she goes to a spiritualist.
oh does she?
i said no staying at, mum, she said well bring mum i said i don't think her a her her scene.
ha.
wouldn't of minded.
wouldn't you?
oh i'll take you some time then, i love it.
yeah i wouldn't mind it ann.
i love it, i do.
you been before?
that's oh yes lots hundreds i always go 
well there you are, why didn't you say?
well i didn't think you might not be interested.
ann yo yo i'm not yo a 
have you been before?
no, but i've told you 
you'd like to 
thing got a book in here about it.
shirley's really into it, i used to be.
is she?
i used to be, but i haven't been for a long while i used to we can't say that i was there last year but
alright then, can i go there is 
well any sundays.
it's a 
isn't it behind angles 
where?
behind angles theatre on alexander road.
oh that's right, that's right.
it's every sunday, shirley goes ev they've 
gone now.
she doesn't, does she?
does she go?
mm sometimes in the week she goes as well.
does she really?
look sorry, we're talking again.
sorry dear 
ooh .
alright we'll go then not next week cos she er sheila will be here.
aye alright alright.
next one dear, sorry .
one who manages another's business 
we can take it up 
one who manages another's business 
nosey parker!
manager.
oh innit just.
five letters, no?
words of songs, six letters .
lyrics.
birthplace of saint theresa, five letters .
who knows.
yep.
theresa, india she's the she's the indian isn't she the 
no birthplace of not mother theresa, saint theresa.
oh sorry sorry.
italian city famous for its holy shroud, five letters .
turin.
turin.
style of architecture etcetera, prevalent during the reign of louis the fifteenth
oh
six letters 
god!
ico rococo or something like that.
yeah.
aye?
i think you're probably right.
yeah probably is.
there you are you are i'm not much good at these 
device for drawing premium bonds winners 
ah i dunno.
bird, a female of the ruff, five letters .
female of the ruff?
female of the what?
the what?
the ruff.
what is a
a ruff a bird 
yeah but you wrote it in, so you must know the answer, i saw you write it in what's the answer?
a reeve.
oh.
yeah.
thank you, at least as if he knows.
aha.
a shakespeare comedy, three, seven, four 
three, seven, four seven twelfth night the twelfth night?
no.
what is it then?
not a lot i can i do with this much, the winter's tale.
the winter's tale.
kind of orange, five letters .
seville.
five letters.
that's six er what then?
navel.
navel.
king of tire who assisted solomon in the building of the temple, five letters .
charlie.
dunno david
charlie bloggs.
blank i r, blank 
paddy.
blank i r
blank m know this one tira ?
hieroglyphics.
tima 
tiram.
tiram.
don't know.
tiram one of the divisions of a flower calyx, five letters .
petal.
what is a flower calyx?
probably a petal.
oh.
portuguese enclave in china, five letters m a c 
oh god!
blank 
blank macau semi precious stone, five letters t blank p blank, blank.
topaz 
topez =az.
vincenti biasco writer of the four horseman of the apocalypse etcetera 
no idea.
we've got six letters comedy by oscar wilde one, five, two, two, ten .
a
yeah, a
a something
something, something something
erm of the no something.
and something of something.
something of of of erm something.
?
no that's 
no.
charles dickens.
oh.
no we'll have to see if we get some
words and get that 
sailor, not an officer, six letters .
mutloe 
scrooge's late partner whose ghost appears in a christmas 
marley.
carol six letters .
marley's ghost.
native of the largest of the continents, five letters .
asia.
county in eire five letters c l blank r e clare.
the american buffalo, five letters blank i blank o blank bison?
bison.
mhm.
lady nancy the first 
astor 
woman mp to take .
astor 
blank s t o r.
well i know it without you telling me the blanks!
nancy astor.
nest of a bird of prey , five letters.
bu not bad, not bad, not bad at all.
at first go through them.
not bad at all.
go on then try and s 
of the carp family, five letters , t blank n blank h.
tench.
must be a the gospel is blank blank r blank, so it must be mark.
mark.
now what we got here one who manages another's business a g e blank blank.
agent.
agent.
the russian wolf hound is the blank u r z blank blank.
oh yeah, it's a funny name.
bu something, burzoi?
yeah something like that.
cos that macau bit, sometimes they spell macau with an o r or u could be macau with an could be burzoi.
yeah something like that, funny name.
could be burzoi not sure.
you got a headache again?
i knew you had we ain't going out tonight, we're stopping here well i am 
we are.
i'm not!
what?
not going to bus stop tonight as well.
no you're not!
we are!
i'm alright ann.
well i'm stopping the night 
no you're not.
unless you're gonna chuck me out.
i'm alright,
no you're not you got bad head again, you're 
well alright, not that bad.
couple of couple of tablets.
i'm alright, tell her i'm alright.
yeah for goodness sake!
i'm alright ann really i am, don't be silly.
couple of tablets.
tree or shrub with white of yellow flowers begins in a and ends in a, six letters.
ah?
begins in a and ends with a.
yeah.
oh dear.
begins with a?
yeah.
and ends with a?
yeah.
i don't know,, i better get my
gardening book out.
gardening catalogue ready, yes i got one there they keep sending me them i never astor no
what about acacia?
oh yeah acacia.
acacia mm clever dick.
no looks as though it's well no it could be seeple 
what?
oh.
flower 
i don't know what a calyx is, i just thought petal fitted in, i mean i don't know.
mm could be seeple 
what's a calyx then?
well calyx is in in the flower, in the
oh well if it's seeple then it won't be the petal 
will it?
because isn't in there.
six letters so, all you need is one two, three, four birthplace of erm saint theresa is a blank i blank a.
mm sshh sshh better look that up.
i know.
in asia.
erm comedy by oscar wilde is th loo i think it's woman a woman of no
importance.
importance.
a woman of no importance.
is that what it is?
i think so.
yeah.
not sure burzoi is it?
borz 
yeah it is but i couldn't tell you ho 
how to spell it, but it is some funny name like that.
vincenti blasgo sh writer of the four horseman of the apocalypse is i b blank n blank blank.
oh, no idea.
i b?
mm.
it wouldn't be addition, would it?
no be in a
it's the burzoi 
be in a
in a way your book things.
be in a dic er encyclopedia, won't it.
yeah.
shall i go look it up?
mm.
if you like in with budgies.
yeah.
well pu put the cover over them stuart.
put the cover on them.
or shut the gate cos if not they'll come out you'll find.
can't fly in the dark.
yeah but he's gonna 
?
put the light on.
yeah, they'll come out of it they think it's daylight again.
when you put the light on then they come out and then i'm in trouble, i can't get them back in 
yeah i know.
again.
no cos it's dark and they won't fly.
yeah then yo yo you strip the light off, i've had all that.
yeah they won't fly when it's dark, they just stay where 
if you come out and then you put the light off yo yo they've got to su the way you put them in the cage.
they can't fly at night.
yeah, don't worry about me ann, i'm alright.
you're not right, you're not like you should be.
well i know 
no a i can't see that that friday is now sunday night.
oh yeah but it's not too bad i'm alright i really am i feel a hell of a lot better.
maybe, you still got a headache, and you're still not right you wouldn't of 
i'm alright.
gone to sleep if you were alright no never mind and you're going the doctor's we'll make appointment tomorrow cos you won't and if i make one you'll have to blooming go and do it .
oh.
i think i'm a i'm a i am i feel a lot better.
i can't see that that could of been friday's episode that's still effecting you today.
these must be the sixth formers in the dresses.
yeah probably.
their hairs th the hairstyles are really funny!
yeah.
look at these hairstyles!
look at that one!
yeah look at that one !maybe we've miscalculated.
that might be later might'n it?
might be earlier !
there's a sixty one.
what staff have left and 
they must be the ones in the white blouses then.
yeah mm mm.
it's funny isn't it, you don't imagine people with hair like that!
it's fifty four.
she was a bit of a tart, weren't she?
yeah.
and this is only 
there's the bandstand, miss .
oh yeah, while she was a teacher then,i say !
i say!
green oh mrs .
oh she might be in an eighty one.
eighty one as a pupil?
mm in the sixth form.
eighty one?
or in eighty.
no way!
no way !
oh yeah well maybe a bit before that these are the eighties.
where was do you reckon miss then?
mm?
do you reckon polio then?
probably.
i thought she knew, she had when she was a child.
did she?
i don't know then.
mm mm miss !
no it must have been before nineteen eighty.
i reckon it was seventy five to seventy nine.
i reckon seventy one then.
i dunno know.
too strenuous for me!
denise .
sorry?
they're very early aren't they?
twe twenty seven.
fifty seven.
sorry?
fifty seven, if she was born in forty seven, she'd be forty seven she'd be forty forty four now
yeah.
and if she was 
about sixty something.
no cos she'd have been twenty then wouldn't she almost 
no no not in sixty 
no.
one.
oh yeah sixty one.
there was sixty one.
how old would she have been in sixty one?
forty forty two, forty one, twenty nine three seventeen six 
me, i was fine thank you!
what have you 
it's a bit.
don't look like it .
should i not ask?
if you want .
right 
here we are.
mm.
mm.
we've finished the last, we've finished the last one.
.
yeah.
was it nice?.
mm, ok those peculiar people.
who is?
those wondering round in a daze and being peculiar.
oh, sorry 
who was that too.
i'm sorry.
.
that's .
what?
.
ooh very motional .
erm, i believe that the toilet roll off, that's what i usually do.
.
yeah, it shows up more.
what you talking about?
.
.
solved the problem, don't worry.
you get if you use the toilet roll?
sorry?
.
why do you want it to glow, it'll show more if it glowed.
it's fashionable.
it is fashionable .
well you .
mm, no.
well .
it's french next.
i haven't got french next.
i hate french.
why?
cos i have to speak to her.
about a conversation then?
what about it, that's worse isn't it?
yeah, well it's the same thing.
i mean you don't .
but not to her.
no,.
er not recently no.
no.
you come back in here or not?
yeah.
yeah.
well now,.
yeah.
yeah..
er, what is it?
.
where is she?.
it's at erm, wembley isn't it?
i can't remember .
who's go is it?
what you go .
er .
i need that one as well.
mm.
i need that one as well.
and that one?
hold on, hold on 
i picked up what she put down.
no, that's right.
that is right.
i put a card down .
sure.
yeah.
oh.
no, i did pick it up.
i believe you.
i thought louise was being very obliging.
i know, i thought i was a bit.
i put two on rachel's 
oh rachel, she's won every game so far.
we've only played one.
no,.
.
it wasn't yesterday, it was ages ago.
was it?
mm.
i .
.
no, it wasn't this week.
i have to give you a .
you sure?.
.
.
a cab .
.
quite easily .
there all .
so, show me yours otherwise i might not put something down.
.
no, don't.
that's, that's 
oh no .
don't need that.
how'd you know, it's your go isn't it?
your go.
it's my go, oh.
good evening.
this is another in our series on britain in europe.
tonight, and during the next two tuesday programmes, we are going to look at cultural links and influences.
this evening i have with me norbert lynton, who is professor of history of art at the university.
norbert, is british art influenced at all by what goes on in the continent?
i think british artists, much more than the general public, british artists are pretty aware of what's going on on the continent.
influenced is more difficult to say.
i think very often the influence goes the other way.
now that's something we in england, in britain i should say, are not particularly aware of, but a lot of british artists who are very well known on the continent, that in britain would seem, you know, too avant-garde to be known to the wider public.
could you give me an example, or examples?
well, i could, but they'd be meaningless in a sense.
i mean, well, by coincidence there's an exhibition at this moment at the whitechapel art gallery in london; upstairs there's a show of tony cragg.
now i'd not seen his work before, that's partly because i'm in brighton and not in london and don't get up that often perhaps, but he has hardly shown in england, whereas he's very well known in europe, using europe for the continent.
he's had many one-man shows in european galleries, but this whitechapel show is his first real sort of public display in this country.
now this applies to many other artists.
a man like richard hamilton, for instance, who's now pretty well known in this country, was much better known on the continent of europe and in america, in switzerland, in germany, in northern italy — milan particularly — much better known there than he was for decades.
traditionally, i always feel that the influence goes the other way.
i think of people, grand old british artists, like turner for example, going on grand tours and coming back to britain and going through, as it were , a period of painting where he is influenced by what he's seen and heard and experienced in europe, and then more latterly i think of france as being, paris as being the centre of art and british artists going and spending their period in paris and coming back and going through an impressionist or an expressionist phase.
i don't sort of think of it as art going in the other direction.
well, you're suffering from, if i may put it that crudely, of a well-known british disease of a lack of self-regard in a sense.
the british in their quiet way think of themselves as the salt of the earth, and quite rightly too, but where matters of culture are concerned they do have this tendency to think that the best things happen abroad and at best can be borrowed from abroad.
in turner's time art was very international.
rome was, i suppose, the capital of the art world, but rome was essentially an international place where many a britisher was famous; where flaxman, for instance, had established himself as one of the most famous artists in the world.
we hardly mention him nowadays.
turner did the grand tour, certainly; he learnt a lot in italy, but he learnt equally a great deal from english artists and from dutch artists and in so far as he used the grand tour, and used what rome and other countries had to offer, that's what every artist did, every european artist, not just the english.
and of course there have been many moments when english art was very important on the continent indeed.
an obvious example is the pre-raphaelites, who, whilst still being spurned in england, except that they were collected by, i don't know, manchester businessmen, spurned in london, let's say, were enormously influential in brussels, in paris, and in germany and austria.
can i ask you a rather difficult question?
as an amateur person, as it were, interested in art, i get very confused about what's been happening in the past fifty to eighty years.
i think i can more or less understand in general terms what happens up until sort of the impressionist time, maybe just post-impressionist.
after that it all gets rather confusing.
there seem to be so many different terms — action paintings, abstract impressionisms, realisms, geometrical art, monochromes, dozens of other different terms.
is there any real development and trend that could be explained perhaps in rather simple language to people like myself?
there's no one dominant trend at the moment i don't think.
impressionism has really made things very difficult in so far as people think that impressionism is a kind of normal state for art to be in and anything else is a kind of deviation from good sense.
impressionism was a very extreme form of art.
i'm amazed it ever happened.
i am even more amazed that, having hated it, people have now come to love it quite so much.
i mean i can understand why they do and i like the stuff myself, but i don't share the belief that i get from all sides that impressionism is what art should be like normally.
you see impressionism isn't art about anything very much, it's art as description — a very lively, lovable form of description, pure and simple — whereas normally art has been full of messages and meaning and didacticism if you like — full of morality and sermonizing very often, and that is normal for art.
a lot of modern art has tended to be that way, often abstract art, that people think is meaningless, is in fact full of very serious messages if only people are willing to listen to them.
it's a big subject but i'm in a sense referring to it only in this context because it's precisely in these areas that british art in the twentieth century has been very important.
a man like ben nicholson, elderly now, rather frail, still i hope working — certainly last year he was still working and exhibiting — is part of an international modern art tendency, or number of tendencies and is recognized as such, and yet if you examine his art, it's full of englishness as well.
you see one can be both.
one can be both part of the international abstract art and some of his work is abstract, and even in that context bring into it qualities that once one knows the idiom people can recognize as purely english and one can also, at the same time as he was much of the time, be a figurative artist that do landscapes, interiors, figure paintings (rarely), and figure drawings of a very high quality, and again they are partly of an international modern and they are partly essentially english works.
what about the art public?
it seems to me that ultimately artists must be successful or otherwise because of the public response to their output.
is the british public different from new york public or the continental public?
ah, alas, i don't know how to say this without seeming to go to extremes.
only in britain would eminent, highly educated people, leaders of society, heads of educational institutions, ministers, etc. etc., think it was worth mocking modern art.
please believe me, this is absolutely true.
you go to an avant-garde exhibition in germany or in italy, in france, in new york of course, and you find that a lot of people want to be informed about it and even, if they are not normally art people, they accept it in the sense of not mocking it.
in britain it seems to be a kind of tradition that if you refer to modern art at all, you make jokes about it.
even henry moore until quite recently was still being mocked for the holes that go through his sculptures and so on, and the tradition continues.
i used to find it kind of funny.
i find it painful because it wastes a lot of effort.
it means a lot of being enjoy being on the wrong side, if i can put it that way.
certainly, on my visits to exhibitions, such as at the royal academy, my impression is that the british public much prefers the older works, as it were.
at the post-impressionist exhibition you could scarcely move at all for people, but at the new spirit in painting exhibition, which is currently on at the r a, there's a lot of space and people on the whole go round very quickly and are rather sceptical about it all.
this actually reinforces what you're saying i suppose.
yes, i think you would find that everywhere people will crowd into especially post-impressionism, which is van gogh, etc., more than they would into an avant-garde exhibition.
i don't mean that people necessarily have to like what's going on.
what i'm begging, especially our leaders so to speak, to do is to stop thinking that it's all kind of a joke that's being perpetrated by idiots or by of some sort against the public.
alas the exhibition at the royal academy, it should be fuller of course because there are some good things there.
any exhibition is worth going looking at and thinking about, but i do think that that is an extraordinarily bad exhibition.
it's the first time i've come away from an exhibition thinking that the exhibition as such was stupid.
not everything in it is stupid, but there's no point to the exhibition and there's certainly not a new spirit being displayed there.
they certainly seem to be unrelated, many of the artists and the canvases and the paintings shown.
well a very ordinary thing has happened there, but it has happened on such an extraordinary scale that i think it's worth saying.
the work on show, of course, let's say was done in the seventies, i mean we're only in nineteen eighty one now.
most of it was done in the seventies, some was done in the sixties.
many of the artists on show of course are quite elderly, and some of them are dead.
what that exhibition in fact is doing is that it's not saying here's a new spirit in painting, it's saying that we the organizers, having not bothered to show you these things in the sixties and seventies, will now allow you to see them in the eighties, and we will pretend there's a new spirit because we think it's good for the art world to have new fashions, new movements, or at least something new going on that will produce some kind of emotional pressure.
but in fact they're all rather dated?
it's all rather dated, and some of it's very good and some of it's so so, and some of it's plain ordinary.
let me ask you about one particular artist, whose name has actually escaped me at the moment 
that doesn't help!
he does more or less blank paintings of single monotone colours of various kinds.
now, can you remember the name of the artist?
oh yes, alan charlton.
alan charlton.
now, with the best will in the world, i stand in front of that sort of painting and i get very little from it.
yes.
now, have you got any comment to make about that?
o yes.
erm i could lecture you for hours at a time on the subject.
this kind of art's often referred to as minimal art, which helps, you know, like most stables there's a quite way of referring to stuff, and indeed very often this kind of art relates to very simple forms, which just one colour, or perhaps no colour if it's a piece of wood for instance, or a large canvass covered with just one colour, a monochrome canvas — you referred to monochromes earlier.
it started as a movement, that is again the critics that is that again the critics picked it up and made something of it worth discussing in the mid-sixties.
the only short way to help people with this kind of art, i think, is to refer to things like pyramids.
there is a sense in which after much complex art, much elaborate art, much sermonizing art of the sort i was talking about earlier, people sometimes get the urge to simplify things down and in a sense they say let's go back to the five finger exercise, let's see what a note on the piano sounds like instead of playing, you know, chopin or stravinsky all the time, let's remind ourselves what the actual note sounds like, or two notes together, or one note and then a gap and then another note, and you suddenly become aware of the richness, in a sense in these very simple elements.
in the case of alan charlton, he has these six very fine grey panels, by very fine i just mean they are handsomely proportioned, they are very carefully coloured to a very precise, not just colour but also weight of colour and brightness and so on, but the way they're shown in the royal academy exhibition, and this is part of it's stupidity, is, well i got the feeling it was intended to kill them to stone dead by putting them next to something very loud, very elaborate, very expressionist, a vast canvass by a very good painter by mutter.
to put these two things together is like forcing people to eat, i don't know, salt and sugar in the same spoonful.
i am not saying which is the salt and which is the sugar — it just is absolutely designed not to produce an intelligent reaction in the spectator.
the only way to show work is to show it either absolutely by itself, in a very plain setting, so that you can notice every detail of how the light falls on it and so on, or to show it with other absolutely minimal works, so again you get this utter simplicity and you become very aware of the space in which the thing is hanging and so on , but there must be a very clear, simple setting, as indeed for new classicism, and i sometimes think that this kind of art is the son or grandson of new classicism, in which incidentally britain was the leading country.
so, lastly, where is art going in the future?
would you care to gaze in your crystal ball?
briefly, no.
i've tried it sometimes, never long enough to know whether i did it successfully or not, but i found there is absolutely no way of telling because even if it changes in a way one can predict, what one can predict is the way oneself changes or the world changes at the same time.
the thing about art is that it isn't just a nostalgic wallowing in things of the past that are comfortable, but art as an adventure, and one just has to go along with it.
thank you very much norbert.
next week, michael hall will be talking about music.
until next week then, goodnight.
hello 
it's me again, with this head of mine.
what have you been doing to your head now?
i've already been up at your 
you says it was inflammation of the nerves in the
aye.
.
it's not been away at all.
has it not?
no.
let's get it x-rayed 
eh.
and see what's going on.
let's see 
i thought it was a .
i took it off doctor, and i i take
so mind the wee er nerve pills that you gave me mamma .
mhm.
och, i can't remember, diazepam, took one of them at , whether it's nerves or what 
mhm.
i don't know.
ah that's a nerve, that's a nerve getting inflamed up the back there .
well it took the pain away like that.
let's get this thing sorted and see.
aye, your stomach and back .
and it had been going, you see me stomach as well.
yeah.
i've been burping an awful lot, in my stomach.
what's worrying you?
och, i don't know.
i haven't the foggiest.
have 
i feel awfully depressed as well.
right.
whether it's this pain that's doing it i know i don't know.
let's get this head of your x-rayed and see what's going on.
i don't know what's causing it.
just not going away, even the tablets that you gave me, they wasn't even taking it away, it, away like .
the ?
aye,.
i mean for a while i think it was maybe my glasses, but these are just new 
no.
lenses i've got.
now then.
i thought the change of life would be starting on me as well.
well this is the other thing that could could be starting.
ah.
you're a bit young.
ah but even me ma me mammy she was young and all,she was thirty seven.
she was just thirty seven, was she ?
aye.
well
when she started to change.
yeah.
you're getting near, you're getting near .
ah slowly but surely.
well let's get you something to
can you give me something to do for it doctor?
aye.
i don't like to ask you but me mam asked you me to ask you if you could give her something for to give her some energy, she's sleeping all the time now.
why did you give her sleeping pills?
no, she
cannae get awake?
she's not been taking them, she's been able to sleep at night but she's sleeping all day and all.
right.
just something for to pep her up a bit.
but i i i'm at early in the morning so me mammy says, why don't you try one of the diazepam that i've got.
i took one and it took it away.
disappeared?
aye.
ah well it's definitely, it's sounds like a, if it's doing it that it sounds like an inflammation on the nerves right enough.
aye, took it away no bother.
mhm.
now that's for your mum.
that's my mam.
mrs , so there's no mistake.
and that's mrs .
okay.
and now yourself, er
now this is the stuff er very like valium
aye.
and the diazepam, er but it's nice and gentle it's easier 
as long as it doesn't make me sleep.
no your alright, it won't knock you out, this it the thing, this is the great thing about this.
and you take this every day,
every day .
one after your cup of tea in the morning
aha.
and one after your cup of tea at six o'clock.
right.
and you take that over to and get 
any time?
some x-rays.
aye, any time after er i guess half past nine in the morning.
right.
just give it to the lassie and she'll put you through straight away.
mhm.
get your x-rays done and they'll send the results over to us in a week .
to just to out-patients that i go to 
aye.
aye.
you know the first when you go in.
ah just as you go in it's just er
first one on the right 
right, aye.
hand side.
and they'll check that out for you and we'll see what's happening but it's just in case there's any arthritis or anything like that that's 
aye.
causing it, er or some dry rot setting in.
nice.
get it, get it organized, make it 
okey-dokey.
organized dry rot.
right thanks very much dr .
right?
okay.
right but get your mum started on that, get her,
get her up and going,.
get her going .
right,
many thinks, cheerio.
right cheerio now.
okay would you like to start then?
right has everyone had a chance to look at some stuff since last time?
much.
okay sally-ann, have you had a chance to look at some of the things which we're gonna do today as well?
i haven't had a look at any books at all but, erm i was worried about .
okay so do you want to run us through some of the things that we haven't really discussed in detail of what we're gonna talk about in here today, specifically have we, i mean i thought something along the lines of er the nature and extent of sexual variations in english, or any other language you want.
so in what way can it differ men and women differ in conversation? and you can make it specific you can just discuss it and make very specific interruptions or turn-taking if you want.
on the other hand you could talk about things in general what the different aspects in the speech are 
being in other languages as well.
is this 
yeah i mean okay cover the languages to show how they did it properly, so if there is something else you want to bring in then that would be good.
but i suppose it would mainly worthwhile concentrating on english, because that's where most of the data's from.
er i've got some notes here which i can go through wouldn't actually be necessary but when sally-ann's going through her notes if anyone else would like raise anything which backs it up or disagrees with it or whatever then, you know please you know butt in and say whatever think might might be relevant at the time.
have you stopped the erm the
the don't before easter though.
what ?
i'm not quite sure when the official handing in date for this essay is, because of the fact that some essays have overrun from last term.
i suppose that really, probably is friday week three but, i don't suppose it has to be.
which reminds me.
have i got your last essay in yet or not?
i'm a little bit confused there and i can't get it out.
okay.
honest.
okay.
well like i say i'll i'll mark the rest of them when i've got them all in.
i can't really mark then till i don i don't want to mark them until i've got them all in cos otherwise it's not really fair so hopefully next week sometime.
i this morning, i've been running around and i can't get it out .
what is it on wordperfect?
hm.
i keep getting and things like that.
oh maybe could go to the advisory after i think they're open till five.
mm.
if you go there afterwards and what they say.
er right okay then.
right erm these notes are sort of based on a lecture that i went to when i was in sixth form erm and the theme for it is, men and women, do we speak the same language?
erm so first of all sounds and pronunciation.
er men tend to have a lower pitch on the whole, erm th they're louder and the's due to their physiological differences, erm jacqueline once said that, men try to talk bigger than they are whereas women talk as though they're smaller.
erm it's been shown that women strive for a pronunciations and and sort of go more towards the .
erm some women tend to have more pitch variation and they're more emotional so they're more likely to use encouraging tones er which can sometimes be seen to be slightly patronizing, whereas boys think it's soppy to be emotional or expressive way, so that if you're in school and you're asking people to read out in class, erm a girl would be more likely to be more expressive, whereas a boy would be a little bit more monotonous, and just sort of read it out and not put any emotion into it.
and go to words of meaning, erm and the descriptions of colours where men are more likely to say purple whereas women would describe it as aubergine or plum and go into more detail about the shading than the colour.
then erm names, babies i if a baby's christened timothy er it gets called timmy or nicholas gets called nicky, which sort of ties in with the biscuits being called bickie and horsie and doggie and all this sort of ee things that you say to babies.
but as soon as the n the kid nicky hits teenage years then he wants to be called nick, whereas if the girl's been christened nicola and she's called nicky through her childhood, when she hits teens she's still called nicky.
so girls don't seem to mind the ee thing whereas the the boys do.
erm also if you look at entertainment, like james saville calls himself jimmy saville, terence wogan is terry wogan, so but then you look at people like charlie chaplin, when he was doing his comedian role he was c he called himself charlie chaplin, and when he's directing films he called himself charles chaplin, so maybe it's all like a bit of a serious thing.
so maybe that implies that when do the kids have got that ee ending.
then we go to the taboo language and if you talk about when you go to the toilet, if you everybody excuses themselves to leave and that's both men and women and then somehow you have to say where you're going, so the women are more likely to use the polite sort of euphemistic kinds of things like they'd say toilet or loo, whereas the men are more likely to say bog.
and they actually say what they do when they get there.
oh, younger men are more likely to use coarser tones and be more explicit erm although they wouldn't use those sort terms to their father or elder men, and the women are more likely to use euphemisms like spend a penny, powder your nose and things like that.
and then we go to grammar.
women tend to use more standard forms er and men are more likely to use regional dialect forms.
so that shows women are more status conscious and men are more maybe could be more concerned with their macho image, and they associate the non-standard with macho image.
erm there is a study where they looked into erm men in the workforce and women and in the workforce and er if men worked together in factories it sort of reinforces their speech patterns, their workmates are reinforcing their speech pattern so they're more likely to use non- standard.
and then there was a study into and area of belfast where most of the men were unemployed and it was the women who were going out to work in the factory and it was found to be the other way round, and the women spoke more of a non-standard than the men did when the men were staying at home.
it was the women going out to work.
then we get use and interaction.
women tend to use more questions which sort of softens the effect of what they're saying, so they'll say things like, there we go and the men say things like, let's go.
erm women are more likely to use the words such as may, might, possibly, perhaps which seem to be a little less forceful.
in turn-taking men have be shown to interrupt women more than they interrupt other men, er and then there's the use of mm.
erm it's been shown that men seem to er connect the word mm with i agree, that's what they use it to mean whereas the women tend to use mm as i understand.
erm so where do these differences come from?
they come from the way socializes children er during the early school years, boys and girls tend to have different activity, the boys in the groups are in groups outdoors and the girls and in tos and fros and they're sharing their little secrets and being loyal to each other and whispering away in little corners.
so that women aren't taken seriously.
so do we speak the same language?
yes, but with differences and we don't always the same message.
and that's that.
okay, right.
has anyone got any other things to add to that?
no.
there was a when we were talking about erm how er women sit there and chatter, it's sort of trivial.
said to be trivial erm which meant it isn't erm book says that erm cos women talk about things like erm children and husband and things,
mhm
whereas men talk about cars and stuff like that.
and that's it's not true at all it's just different it considered.
right, and we've got part of this linked in with the stuff you might have done on sapir-wharf hypothesis in the sense that er people talk about different things because they might be relevant to their actual lives.
er and of course if you're in one group, you might think that something's trivial and you might denigrate another a group for talking about those things, when in fact that group sees it as an important talk about it might see the thing that the other group hold dear to talk about as something trivial, and to denigrate.
so yeah, i mean that's definitely something that that comes into it.
erm what sort of d differences are there in conversational styles?
i mean it's a thing you might want to talk think about or you night have read about, things like interjections and er interruptions and overlapping.
and how erm men tend to ignore them, they're like they're not interested and not going to pay any attention.
right, do you want to explain that a bit more, about
well things that they the actually say anything which is sort of a sign that you listening, understanding but if they delay it, it's say it 's the women that pauses,wanting some sort of suddenly realizes 
right.
that women uses use minimal responses anyway, then then you know like all males speak a male didn't use minimal responses 
so it wouldn't be that they interruptions listening necessarily it would just be that wouldn't expect to have to.
yeah, right yeah.
women use women use minim minimal 
responses but when men use them it quite often delay .
i mean one thing that's mentioned before is about tag questions, which is where you put on question to the end of your sentence, as in oh don't you agree or isn't it or you know you know the sort of thing i mean.
er now i mean one thing that a lot of the literature says is that this might indicate a power, and another thing that the literature says
is that it tends to be women who do more of it.
it does,and say that erm you say that 
okay.
but i can't remember
this is one of the things that some studies have shown it to be the case, other studies haven't.
one thing that might be relevant to this is the fact that er one study came up with two different types of tag question, they call the two different tabs, aka tag question modal tags and effective tags.
now modal tag is one for seeking agreement whereas an effective tag is one that shows concern to the addressee and according to this study, if you looked and the sheer number of tags, women did use more tags than men, but in actual fact women used a higher proportion of the effective tags than men did.
women used seventy five percent effective tags and twenty five percent modal tags, so in general their tags were to show concern rather than to actual seek agreement, so it wasn't showing a lack of power according to this study.
whereas the men had sixty percent effective tags and forty percent modal which is still the same direction but to a lesser extent.
which shows that perhaps a misindica in this situation perhaps the men are seeking agreement rather than the women are, because the women seem to be doing it to actually show concern, rather than to seek agreement, which doesn't turns a lot of the traditional thing about tag questions on it head.
pointed out how tag questions there's only certain structures you can put them in, that were going to direct it rather than proper questions say someone who's asking all proper questions,is he going to use as many tag questions anyway?
mhm.
and that sort of the 
that's something else which you might find, a lot of the time in er literature about interaction with children, you might find that er where parents are asking their children to do something, like if they're playing a game, you might find some you'll find that mothers and fathers talk differently to sons and daughters er so you start off with a direct ac action like put that one there, if they're playing lego or something, straight prom put that on there down to er wouldn't it be a good idea to put that on there down to could you put that on there or let's put it on there.
and you find more or more or less forceful ways of of giving directives, and one way of making some things perhaps a bit less forceful is to put a tag question on cos it's sort of adding a sort of pleading note on to it, to ask somebody to do it, i think.
has anyone read anything about turn-taking in conversation?
yes.
and how that works.
sort of there's a model, a conversational model and if it if it's if it's conversation is following a model then it's it means that it's running smoothly
mhm.
and you erm you know your next big and the mean a signals as to whether or not it sort of the floor's being offered.
mhm.
and you've just go to to generally in single sex conversation it follows the model.
quite often erm when it's men and women speaking the men will interrupt a little more erm which makes the women fall silent.
whereas women hardly ever overlapped 
mhm okay.
so in the two things that can happen in conversation to to give it to make it stop running smoothly are overlapping and interruption and like some of them are quite difficult to tell apart but usually it's if you're transcribing stuff it's fairly obvious.
what's can you remember what the point in a conversation is where a speaker has a chance to to become a new speaker?
like it's it's
t r p
transition relevance point?
yeah that's the thing i was thinking of the t r p like you say the transition relevance point.
i mean that is like a point in the conversation where a change in turn-taking could ha potentially happen.
now when you get to a t r p what are the three things that can happen?
i don't know if any of the li any of the stuff you read mentioned this or not.
erm the the somebody speaking includes erm address someone to make it really obvious who the next speaker's going to be.
mhm.
or it you leave it open and one of the other speakers in the more than one or more of the other speakers in the conversation could decide to start to talking, or no one could erm start talking the present speaker at the moment gets another chance to carry on.
okay that's right, yeah.
okay has anybody else got anything more on that on that subject?if we go back for a bit and just go back to the
idea of the theory, which is something that probably should have come at the beginning but it doesn't matter too much.
and like there are two different sort of schools of thought about men and women's conversation.
er one is like the traditional school of though and the other one is like the feminist way of looking at things.
er just to run through what the two what the two schools sort of think it will be fair to say that the traditional school thinks as follows.
er in terms of syntax and pronunciation, women were always thought of as being more careful than men, er a lot of dialectologists in the past considered women to be very conservative in their speech, they ascribed conservatism to them.
er men and women were always thought to use different specialist vocabularies, that's something else that was said.
er women were also said to be polite, diffident, verbose and deferential, which
what all of those?
mhm.
polite and deferential.
verbose as in when they actually said things, they they did a lot of talking.
i'm not saying this is actually correct but this is the traditional view.
okay.
except that women were deferential to other speakers they would let they would they were they would allow themselves to be walked over in conversation but at the same time you had this stereotype of women who talked too much.
i'm not saying that the same person thought of these two things at once, but
okay.
these are these are things which were all said.
er said in in an article that women used empty language.
that was a phrase he used.
so what so traditional schools thought that women did a lot of recognized they thought that women did a lot of talking but that a lot of it wasn't really any use.
yeah that that was just the ideas it had.
whereas men talked more for function.
er and then to contrast this you've got like the feminist view er well it's a just reconstruct a lot of these ideas instead of saying that women's talk was diffident they said it was more considerate, and so the idea that quite often a lot of the features that are in this conversation aren't because women want to be deferential to the men they're talking to, it's that they actually want to show some consideration to to the turn-taking or the conversational style that's going on.
er in actual fact the speech styles aren't really comparable which is why you sort of get these contradictions.
er you fi what the feminist the schools says that a lot of languages minimize and trivialize interests and achievements of women and denigrate them by the way in which they use language and the way in which they talk about things.
er and similarly the syntax of languages are often said to be oppressive of women, a lot of the way that language is structured and a lot of the words that you get in a language, that's another thing that's said.
there's one quite sort of ground breaking paper that obviously there's a lot in that people don't agree with but it was quite an important paper in terms of er in terms of feminist linguistics and feminism in general.
it came out o it came out in nineteen seventy five.
and that was by a women called robin lakehoff and she wrote a paper called l language and woman's place.
er the things that she said were that women used more hedges, such as i think er hedges are sort of things that get put into the conversation if al allegedly if somebody wants to give the impression that they're not quite sure, and they wouldn't w you know like i wouldn't want to say it for sure but i think that.
er and then similarly to that they er were said to seek agreement by lakehoff she said they used more questions and more tag questions.
she said, as you said, they s she said they used less swearing and more please and thank yous.
and also as you said, the thing with colours, they were said to perhaps use less basic colour terms, so if some men were shown a bluey-green some men would say and some would say whereas a women allegedly would say turquoise or whatever.
er now a lot of things in lakehoff's paper perhaps people have disagreed with since then such as the things about tag questions and hedges erm i mean some studies have said that if you look at the actual modality of tag questions, like we said before, the actual function of it
that isn't the case.
but still it's an important paper that sort of broke away from a lot of the traditional thinking and led towards a lot more feminist stuff.
i mean you c you can't really read wh a book on this list about women's and men, s language without finding the reference to lakehoff in the back somewhere.
did she actually do research?
er a lot
a lot of hers was intuition yeah, er
some students were given shown some s some utterances
mhm.
and they had to say which were said by men and which were said by women, and erm most of the ones with tag questions were said by women
right
this women says that all 
yes i mean in a sense that just sort of shows that a lot of people would agree with lakehoff in the sense that they think that women use a lot of tag questions and have that speech style, erm i mean like we've been able to see, and what we can say is that men and women's language is different er and it's even possible to say in what way it's different, but the difficulty becomes when we actually want to say why those differences are.
i mean some people say it diffidence some people say it's considerate so you have to then try and go a bit further beyond the actual differences to find out what the reasons behind them are.
you also find different cultures have different ways of having men and women's language.
er some of the things which i won't go into in detail but a short list of some of the things which do differ among languages are interjections, particles, personal pronouns, titles, kinship terms, er nouns, verbs, noun multipliers, pronunciation.
er there's a book, which i don't think is on your list but it might be called by thorn and henley er which might be worth looking at.
that's like full of about dozen or so papers each one i think, if it's the book i'm thinking of, is about a different community or a different language er so you might find some information about samoa where there's a different societal hierarchical structure.
er children aren't brought up in the same maternal way as they are in in this country, and many other countries.
er similarly in i' think it's japanese you find that men and women use different for certain things, er not because not because of terms of style just because they are the correct words to use if you are a man or if you are a women.
er lots of languages have very complex kinship terms where in english they're fairly simple, er i mean someone who is one of your parents brothers is going to be an uncle, no matter what.
whereas other communities will have father's brother and mother's brother and other ones still will then have different words depending on whether you're male or female.
er the same things happens with nouns and verbs and other things and in ja japanese again i think you find that the same words are pronounced differently.
er again i think you can find some information on that in thorn and henley.
right, er another situation where there's men and women differences is in multilingual communities, er you find that men and women's attitudes to varieties or language varieties or languages can carry so some men will try and avoid using one of their languages because they see it as a low prestige variety whereas some women will use it because for them it's a high prestige variety.
likewise you might find that switching and mixing will change according to status of the languages.
er there's another book which is similar to the other one in the sense that it made up of some papers by phillips, steel and tants and that has some information about mexicano in it, er and you find that some people er were giving mexican language a low a low prestige rate whereas other group in the community were doing the opposite and giving a high prestige rate or certainly a less low one, er in favour of spanish a lot of the because it was in i think it's in south america i guess, er you find that a lot of the locals were switching to spanish because it was coming the dominant language er because of societal pressures and constraints and so on.
er but a part of the community were trying to keep mexicano and there's men and women differences in that.
there's a caribbean island and apparently they just because the men their sort of ancestors invaded the island,all the men and you know they 
mhm.
and then they kept their language kept the language.
right.
okay did anybody get a chance to read the paper which was about conversation?
i just wondered what what that came up with as it's conclusion.
w well it might be worth having a read of that.
er okay what else?
has anybody got any that i haven't haven't really covered yet?
mhm.
and how erm but it probably got a little to do with the way groups actually organize.
whereas the boys are more but the tend to give more .
right.
but the girls tend more equal responsibility and not .
what differences do you f i mean have you got any specific examples there or?
no er the girls sort of say things like perhaps ask her, do you have any we could get on a bit more so they don't include themselves in what they're going to do.
whereas the boys give me the pie get off my steps or something
mm.
right.
is there something about where one girl was using what would be boys language when 
yeah.
someone else came round to her house she was like you know get off my yard 
yeah,yeah, so girls are perfectly capable of using those when need be 
yeah, i mean i the important thing is i think the children do recognize the differences, not that they don't notice the differences, because they're like you say they're capable of using the other if it if it suits them.
er i mean that goes back again to the articles which you might have about the way that parents talk to their children, and you quite often find that then very very quickly the children grow up speaking in a same way as the parent of that sex talked to the them.
so if a child gets spoken to in a fairly direct way by imagine a female child by her father and the same female child gets spoken to in a not so direct way be her mother, then even of this the child is likely to both version, she'll grow up using female variety because she's she can affiliate herself with her mother and i mean she knows that is the variety she's expected to use.
i think can't really remember i don't know how father would use different language he's talking to his son or daughter.
yeah that's true as well.
er it sort of goes in four ways i mean the fathers talk more directly than the mothers whether or not it's a boy or a girl they're talking to.
but they do talk more directly to boys than girls, so it's sort of graded in that way.
okay who wanted to talk briefly about what people are going to write about?
cos we haven't really sort of said anything.
has anyone got any i mean i you don't all need to write about the same thing or anything.
er does everyone want to do a general essay or do people want to do a s a specific thing?
general essays can turn into just regurgitating from the .
okay so is there anything you've read that you all would want to concentrate on?
erm well not that i've come across yet i'd rather do something that's getting the facts and then giving examples.
mhm.
i want top do something on what what you noticed about and what you've got 
right.
right.
er let me think.
i'll just go and find out when the due date for this essay is, and then cos if it is the end of week three then i'll i'll say o i'll say it can be in in week four sometime.
but if it's due in when the project originally was which was week five, then that 
gives you a bit more time to decide exactly what you want to talk about cos if if it has go to be in week three or week four, then we really sort of like decide now what you're going to write about so that n cos next week is gonna be our last meeting on this topic, so you really want to sort of give a bit of a presentation on what you're going to say.
yeah i want everyone to do like five or ten minutes next week on what they're gonna write.
okay i 'll just go and find out.
what are they supposed to be doing by the way?
what happens to the like project?
it got cancelled .
cancelled 
it got cancelled?
oh right, didn't hear that then.
there oh that's why we're not doing it any more, so what do we have to do instead of having to do an essay ?
just an essay.
oh, they decided not to give us quite so much work?
mm.
oh right.
so we is that why the 
is that what we're meant to be doing this term,tutorials?
think so i don't 
when do our tutorials stop?
i'm really confused.
we've got two more tutorials?
what oh yeah, week three and week four, and 
yeah.
i'm so confused about what's going on.
i think i must be not looking at the list or not reading half the stuff.
the first who put dictation and and i was going, what?
where did it say that?
i shan't find the le you know the letter we got sent in the holidays?
yeah.
well mine got sent home and i wasn't there i was here.
oh that's ridiculous sarah, yeah 
so
so i don't know.
i i mean i've got i've read it once and and now i've lost it 
and it might even still be at home but i don't know where it is, i can't find.
so i can't remember what it said in it.
ooh i don't know.
my supervisor doesn't know anything about writing an outline .
yeah has that got to be in tomorrow?
yeah.
got to do a marathon tomorrow.
why?
cos he's a runner.
oh excellent,?
put the history of phonetics
yeah.
so little blue brochure and
this is the study of papers written in the fifteenth century or something
history of phonetics?
i'm sorry if you're interested in this then go for it.
you need a 
what're you doing for yours then ?
i'm i'm i'm a bit confused.
your doing what?
historical linguistics?
your mad!
what is it though, what's historical linguistics?
is it like what we do in old english or not?
cos that 
yeah it is.
that sounds excellent.
right it's due in week three i think.
hurray.
er but as far as i'm concerned if it comes in in week four, that's fair enough, but things after that then they start to get a bit upset 
but i sa i said to chris, when is it?
she said, week three.
er and i said, give or take a few days, and she said, yeah.
so if it's inside week four then that will quite reasonable, does that sound okay?
okay has anyone had a think about what they want to do?
i mean does anybody else know?
sort of everything we've had so far's been pretty general.
okay if any of you wanted to you could always go out some tape recorder and people have a listen to it.
but obviously if you're going to do that you'll have to do it during next week some time on the other hand i could give you a list of five topics and you could choose one.
yeah oh yeah i mean there's five five things five things in men or women's conversation t to do and essay about.
say one about interrupting, one about topics, and one about perhaps interaction with children, one about er what or you could even i mean if i did er i did a list of that you could even do the same one, you wouldn't have to do one each.
you know you got your erm tag questions?
yeah.
might not be one of the question in it as tag questions could be
oh yeah.
specific.
okay er there's one title i've got written down here which i don't know if anyone's interested in.
evaluate the claim that women are more d ob evaluate the claim that women are more observant of the prestige norms in their speech than men are.
does anyone fancy that?
let's if i write down okay the which i've just suddenly thought of were er
turn-taking and interruptions and overlap and tags and tag questions, topic selection and interaction with children, which i think i just mentioned make sure you've got them down so we can forget them.
er
what?
what?
what have i done?
oh you weren't supposed to be able to read it.
no, we can read it but it's 
it's just happened a lot this week.
er so yeah, you want to do some questioney tag things?
yeah.
okay, i mean just ignore that one, forget i wrote it.
i mean on something like interruptions there's only so much you can say.
er
yeah, which is why may be general one might be more useful dependi it depends how much
whereas if you do interaction of children you can do it here,
mhm.
oh yeah i mean if you wanted to also link that with multicultural situation or or cross cultural or comparing it with other ones i mean that's no problem.
language of the different to 
okay.
certain dialectic language.
yeah well if you want to that then that's fine as well, i mean that tell you what, the best thing then is can everyone put a note in my pigeon hole by monday in other words, you've got the weekend to decide for definite.
gives us just like a provisional title of what the essay will be, on what your essay will be.
is that alright, cos then you've gone away with any ideas you've got from now which is probably none, er and then it also means that i don't have to spend next week worrying in case we get to friday and thursday and you're still not sure what you're doing.
is that alright?
okay if you just sort of like think of a vague title which sums up what the things are which you want to cover in the essay and if you get it to me by monday then that that'll be quite good.
you know about questions, is it questions like sort of
well tag questions and er and questions in their own rights which i i supposed seeking agreement is the idea.
or with anything which is vaguely connected with that i mean that just sort of a coverall term for it.
excuse me.
okay so does everyone, think they'll gonna be able to think of something over the weekend?
okay and then if next week somet if next week everyone can have okay w i think what you need to do f for next thursday is for monday to give me what you're going to do and then between monday and thursday, try and read anything you can about that topic.
i mean you could forget this list that i gave th b that gave you, unless there's anything on it that is still relevant, but find the things yourself on that topic so that on thursday next thursday you can each spend ten minutes talking about things which you've read in your topic specifically.
and if anyone chooses the same topic as somebody else then you can do it together or not together or which ever.
but if that can be a general idea for next week.
okay .
is everyone okay about that?
book
er
where you where you
which one?
on on your chapter six and nine, do you know what chapter nine ?
er.
not off the top of my head, i can't remember.
was that was that theory?
was it that?
i can't remember what the off the top of my head, no.
chapter six is,.
right, er
as questions lead to shouting and then crawling back to his then a little bit about language and an experiment that they did .
right, sounds like there's a bit on topics in there so it might be worth having a look at anyway.
monday sixteenth may 
monday 
nineteen eighty three.
mr tommy inverness.
can i ask firstly mr when you were born?
august the sixth nineteen twenty nine.
now was this in tormore?
in tormore house er by lochassynt.
in sutherland ?
in sutherland.
that's correct.
and how long were you in fact there?
well up until the time i would be about eight years old when my father decided there was a change in the estate then and it was off to argyllshire dalmally that sir douglas and lady as she was then decided to go and wanted my father to come with him.
but him being from up there and my mother also and their people were still alive which was my grandparents on both sides they were very reluctant to sort of go.
but when a job came he he would be wanting a diff different shooting ground in in argyllshire comparison to the hard rocks of sutherland.
mm.
pine pastures green to the tops of ben dorain and and up black mount where the craig estate took it was it was in their estate.
so therefore my father was very keen to go too.
mm.
and that's how we decided to go.
so dalmally i should safely say was my first schooling.
even though i was about eight and a half.
mm.
now your father was the the stocker at tormore is that right ?
yes he was the stocker at tormore.
who was he employed with then?
well the estate er er er the duke of sutherland had the whole of assynt and then h general stewart who was born in nedd and worked and made his fortune if it was as you would say in canada on the c p r.
canadian pacific railways and he was able to take a lot of people from the place he was born in out to canada.
mm.
what d'ya recall of your early days with your father at tormore?
pardon?
what d'ya recall of your early days at tormore with your father?
well he was a very active man my word he would soon go right from the house to the top of as you would say because we had sheep then.
and if he saw a sheep that shouldn't be where they were and the gentry about to come within days he would soon get them down.
mm.
without a collie dog.
and well i remember hearing about it and and saw it probably as i grew up myself.
so he was and it had it's tormore house was really a lovely place.
did the did the gentry come fairly frequently to the estate?
yes.
oh they came up with their servants all servants up from the south by train to inverness and then a charabanc or vehicle of such that was in it then because it was only metal roads we had then.
but they were good metal roads that took all the traffic.
well i remember at that time the steam roller that was just doing the road outside tormore house and many's the day i was trying to get on it with a very good friend of ours that's now dead.
a hugh .
no relation but a great friend of ours.
he was a steam roller driver.
mm.
and were the gentry in er lochassynt lodge or was it tormore?
no lochassynt lodge.
that's right 
lochassynt 
that's right.
and my mother er went to help them in the lodge in the season time also.
fr from that time can you recall any incidents which er your father may have mentioned to you even as a young boy?
well
or stories about the the people that were there or
well
passers by?
ah well yes the passers by will will remember being on the road side the famous tramp.
aha.
the gentleman of the road.
my word and me just as a little boy of eight years.
i was no fear of being frightened of them because they were part of the establishment.
and well did the gentry know that too.
you mentioned that you were perhaps more scared of er ministers.
well yeah ministers er.
when i think of it nowadays and i see children so very going round to the various churches that when people used to say about ministers well.
when you heard there was a minister coming i was just afraid and looking to see would you see that dark black clothed individual coming.
and even that seemed a but thinking of the old tramp and he was in a a sort of all belaggered looking way.
my word but you weren't frightened of him because you were told that he was an old man and one of the road men of the road.
and there was no fright to be taken from him.
is it correct to to say that the tramps actually used to make a special point of coming to to see your father ?
oh yes.
made a special point of coming there because they knew my mother would give them a bowl of soup or what was ever on.
she was baking fresh scones hot cakes anything that was going.
and my word they enjoyed it well.
they wouldn't come in they wouldn't come into the porch even.
they would sit outside wait in that days we had a seat out in the and even if was a seat for sitting outside they would sit on their own way or on a rock.
no they just had their own way of life and you wouldn't change it and they had stories to my father.
they would tell sing where they came from and who they saw and all the way up they came.
and they would be looking for a bed for the night and it would be in the old hay shed that we would put them but there wouldn't be a problem.
it was in the winter time so it was full of hay but they would be very careful and we would ask them that they had no matches in case er there was no cigarettes much and that but pipes they were pipe smokers.
old clay pipes with black twist.
but they would soon tell that they would have their before they would go to bed and thanks er very much when getting the bed and you could er vouch for that they would never.
but the odd one yes we saw the odd one but they were very odd.
aye they were very odd.
y you refer to them as mile stone inspectors.
mile stone inspectors and gentlemen of the road.
mm.
and there's a story about the late duke of portland when he was travelling up to to estate where his lodge was.
there was many's a tramp that would have taken the a nine then but this one in particular and he was very very fond of him and he would ask when he was around to that he would get over to see him.
and when that poor tramp perished out on the roadside one severe winter or spring time the duke found out where it was and to this very day there's a little mound and a stone put on it.
that was the er lord of caithness i think tommy that the stone was.
yes yes that i'm referring to yes.
the lord of caithness.
i cos i can't picture another stone you know on any other roadsides and i've been on plenty that and i travel and no and i can never know of another st stone that was put up to a tramp.
anywhere in the north as far as i know.
but that one was and i heard a year ago but i never saw it till the bus driver i went with some years ago up to john o'groats.
mm.
and going up to to john o'groats and right into past castle may where the queen mother has and into the church where sh where the royalty goes when they're living up in up in castle may at er well er johnnie groat is buried there too.
there's many a person johnnie groat to my name.
from these young days that you spent in tormore can you recall how the tramps actually looked?
oh they they
how would you describe them?
erm the tramps?
well fearsome looking
wild looking as you would say it now.
but but the very opposite to what people would er er th think of them as regards people now.
and that's ordinary people.
but but they looked wild because they would have long hair beards a and and all oh my word they were wild looking but er.
and probably it was cold weather they would have two or three coats er you know.
and jackets probably below and their little bag of stuff.
whatever they were carrying.
they they generally came all year round?
yes oh yes generally came.
ah but they always watched th they would be in some place over bad storms you know.
er er er you know if there was a bad storm somebody would oh you better stay here today too again and he might be there three or four days.
so he would still stay there because he was told about the weather.
and he would know himself.
mm.
you see it's not what er anybody else would say that it was good weather.
he they knew that they had a great sense of the weather themselves after being out in it.
did they ever mention to you or your father that they in fact got caught out by the weather?
oh well sometimes yes they would be very wet when they would come.
and when they would offer to no no they wouldn't they would have their own way of drying it in in their bags they would have another clean or or you would say clothes to put on but we never ever heard of them doing a washing .
mm.
or whatever.
well they would be discarded.
it's it's like i i better not say say this but irishmen over that when when i when i used to work with irishmen my word they was good irishmen.
very good friends of mine.
but they would work they would never see them with dungarees.
they came with a good suit on and they would go to work with a suit double breasted and then and they would work there and make a lot of money and when the next thing they would do they would hit into town and get all rigged out and then that was them from top to bottom from their hat right to their feet and then they were hitting the road then.
yes i could say that that's true about irishmen.
mm.
the the tramps never mentioned some of the places they were actually forced to stay whether it was under a road bridge or?
oh oh yes they yes they would stay under a road bridge too because you would see the er er if you would look a a bridge and they would say oh there's a tramp there's a place there if you could tell me and you would see the rocks put up and where the bed was always above water level oh yes.
mm.
below the certain bridges.
mm.
depending how far away a house you see was and how they would be.
but never two of them meet together.
we we you never know that.
they would be always er passing.
they didn't go round like that they were very loners as you would say.
and what happened say
they would never
were there ever occasions when there was one or more in your hay loft?
no no i don't think ever i can remember.
i th well i think er there was once or something but he he passed he didn't know that this er was so then they passed on.
mm.
you see one stayed but he was there before him and the other one carried on.
no they would never they would never blend together.
mm.
like whiskies blend .
no no they would never.
they were they were very very fine people.
and and the tinkers that came there.
mhm.
er wouldn't want to but from from there was there was one lot.
and there were and the women folk would have their haberdashery and the men were tin smiths.
they would make pails and basins like you were being requiring in your sc er scullery or in the milk house as you would keep milk there.
so they were all and very industrious looking.
but they had for the winter time they their houses to go to.
mm.
and they were just coming round in the summer.
mm.
and their horses and my word they fairly looked after their animals mhm.
did the crofting people have any special name for the the tinkers?
not really no.
you've never heard the term summer walker?
er er no no i could never say that.
or mystery folk or?
er well 
celts.
as the years came on they were beginning to get mystery fo folk but er not in my time.
well that sort of people that was coming.
if ones came as in little wee pi pickups we called them the little lorry things you would sort of keep your eye very much because you didn't know they were looking for scrap and if you told them you had nothing they might go away with your iron gates or something.
this was during the mid thirties?
oh yes i would say that yes that was coming more that way yeah yeah.
coming more that
how about the individual er tramps?
did you ever have bye-names for these characters?
well th th there was one joe wrench.
er but i don't know what's that.
but somebody so told me aye and i said that was a funny name or was it else's then.
well i said i remember a man called joe wrench and but er oh i wouldn't er but one said oh joe wrench is very black looking.
well the bugger is just coming on and he was cleaning the car down hosing her car so he says i turned the hose on him.
well the hose landed on him alright but it landed on his parcel and it the whole thing fell out on the road.
so there was a bit of
mm.
among the few people that saw that happening.
but er he was quite a character the man that did that.
did you ever have an opportunity to to see what the tramps actually carried with them?
no well i could never say i i was kept well away out of the but my father probably might have seen
mm.
in his bag.
well i think it would be a change it's when they're when they're when they're jacket would be wet they would have another
mm.
jacket in the bag.
so whatever he and if he was dumping anything oh er er they would ask the father said er just er to dump that.
they wouldn't be left with a whole pile of stuff or er.
no oh no they or they would dump it in a place where nobody would see it you see.
and when they were coming along lochassynt were they making for anywhere in particular?
we we well er er see they were on their rounds and then they'd be going round by nedd and and probably scourie they were just doing their circular.
aye they had their places for.
yes it's amazing aye.
and did you have ever a chance to gain some sort of insight into their backgrounds?
who they were in fact?
where they'd come from?
on some cases yes because i was always told this man he that used to come and he was so clean looking and that he was a barber.
well that er er er an englishman that he was trained as a hairdresser.
as a man's hairdresser.
but somebody er whatever he no he didn't carry anything to to do that no.
but that's what he's he told you?
oh yes but he told somebody that he was a hairdresser.
and you would see that they were very some of them intellectual people.
mm.
too and who knows how they went to the road.
mm.
did they fail in their exams or something or went to drink or.
it's said nowadays about drink but i don't know.
they they were quite er learned men they weren't numskulls you know.
mm.
so something just peculiar at that very time put them to the.
did they ever do any form of casual work?
s some of them did yes if they came in the springtime and then in the ar in in the harvest time.
yes oh some would w w work but some wouldn't.
er and if if they would work they didn't want money for it but they would stay a while with you so that they would get their bed for the night and they would get their grub.
mm.
what type of work did they ?
well they would take in er er er they would er er and they would put hoe potatoes you see when that was coming on that time.
and they would help to lift potatoes and they would er stack corn and hay.
oh yes and that's those only that would do it but you wouldn't get the ordinary man taking any he would just be on his rounds.
and you wouldn't say oh i think it's going to be wet today john you better stay.
not him his his mind was made up on going and that was it.
and were you visited by the peddler the pack-man character
yes.
who sold goods 
oh oh yes er er who who sold.
er there was one chappie that er erm i can remember of him and he had a suitcase and well he had a shaving soap i suppose cos people used soap then with your shaving brush and and that and proper shaving brush and razor blades probably that quite.
yes but i remember right a .
so it was things that wasn't too heavy to carry but things that was always needed in a house and that you could run out of.
when we were er were living all on the road so we were expecting to be supplied by vans.
mm.
and my word there was plenty of vans in them days.
both getting butcher meat.
what even in the thirties?
yes oh yes er er when we had a wee baker's van coming up from the nedd to lochassynt when when lochassynt lodge you see.
so these people that had little private shops in them days did well because when the people came to the lodges it all the commodities were bought to as well as them.
it's not like nowadays when people has big fridges 
mm.
buy their stuff away down south and take it.
but no they would buy it there aye .
so provisions were bought fairly regularly in those days.
there wasn't the same er bulk buying that you see nowadays ?
no no there wasn't the same.
but only well we would get it buy it in bulk ourselves supplied by er hamiltons of glasgow
mm.
and it would be coming on the steamer mcbrayne's steamer and 
up to lochinver?
yes to lochinver yes and that same steamer would be calling in kinlochbervie and all the villages and this traveller for hamiltons would be going round beforehand and you would be getting a hundred weight of sugar and tea it would be in a big tea box er er probably er er ceylon coming from ceylon but you the whole or you could buy a small quarter.
but oh yes you would buy all that stuff in bulk.
mm.
but that stuff that was in bulk but you would never er no perishables no peri 
mm.
can you recall in those days tommy how people kept perishables?
well er er there were it was big caverns that'd be underground.
if there was a big bank at the back of the house they would have a hole just dug out and er built up with flagstones
mm.
and therefore it was when when you would go in there it was quite cool.
mm.
even in the summer?
well wonderfully cool.
they would they would watch where they would where they would excavate this thing out
mm.
from.
but yes it was wonderfully cool.
mm.
and the produce was salmon ?
and the prod it was it was sort of kept as within a reason of time of course it wouldn't.
but er and of course stuff was salted.
venison
venison of course.
you you buy er salt it away in barrels in boxes and and work on it until it was through.
now was that your father's own particular task the the salting of the venison?
oh oh oh n no really i can't say that.
er we only probably did it when ourselves we got venison beforehand on the last shooting and to keep.
but no no er there was so many hinds having to be shot in the winter time and and and it would be sent away you see.
but not away what they're doing now or but it'd be sent down to their premises down in the in the shooting lodges in the south.
mm.
and that and to their friends.
and there would be always a beast or two cut up for to be given to the village.
mm.
oh yes that was one thing.
i always remember that.
so where did the venison actually go to?
well it well ah but ah but they never they never killed it in that quantity as they're doing it now.
mm.
to make money.
no no there was no money made of it.
it was just for their for their own use.
mm.
and haunches of venison that was the best part in the they would be sent away to themselves the haunches.
but the other parts with the ribs and all that'd be cut up given to the and the lodge itself for the.
and all the estate men first of all would get everything.
and all the crofters then that was paying rent.
in those days how many people were actually involved on the estate?
well there was a lot of people involved on the estate because they had to repair paths.
they had to keep the river streams all flowing and if there was any deluge of rain and stones they would have to keep all the pools in good order and they would
the pools?
yes the pools.
that's the salmon pools
mm.
you see.
and they would have barriers going out so that they could so that the gentry could go out to stand on that ladies and men.
to cross the the
yes just yes you see 
the streams .
it still on the the rivers.
but now it's made of stonework or or concrete.
mm.
now and that cos that's the only thing that could stand
mhm.
to the weather.
but er that's the way.
and the and the paths repairing at the riverside and all the bushes round the lodge.
and the gardener there was always a permanent gardener but he was he had enough to do but the estate men would be sent up to clear that.
and painters and joiners they would have themselves.
all self-contained?
yes self-contained yes.
there'd be a joiner and he'd be engaged in a 
erm what, what we do today is to way go back over some of the ideas about land reform and then carry them through to the ninety fifty er agrarian reform bill.
erm what we've been looking at is the process of land reform.
tt and we're obviously looking at a process of land reform which has, has undergone a number of changes and i think we, we've begun to see some of the influences on those changes and particularly over the, the last week or so the this has .
tt er and i in a sense there's kind of been an upward trend in terms of progression through that, that reform but within that there have obviously been a number of and in a sense what we've been coming to terms with is, is what has been causing those, those variations, those changes in that policy.
tt and i think we've identified in a number of different factors erm er behind that, that trend and that erm i in a sense there's, there's the kind of distinction between the ideological approach and the pragmatic approach in that we, we've seen there is a, i think a, a broad ideological impetus behind the reform in the sense that there is this long-term commitment to overthrowing feudalism.
there is this commitment to overthrowing feudalism through class struggle and there is i think this vision that under new society will be more egalitarian, not completely egalitarian
i think there is, there is an attempt to move in that direction for a set of ideological reasons.
but we've also seen that the various,th that there is a whole range of, of practical day to day issues which have come up which have, have like distorted a s a straightforward progression along those ideological lines tt and in particular over the last we, we've, we've identified the political and military factors erm 
which have been relevant there and the political factors during the japanese war, the a need to form a united front, a need to moderate policy and then, over the course of nineteen forty six, forty seven, the need to move in a more radical direction, to go back to land reform and, and land reform a scale in terms of absolute egalitarianism because that was seen as the way of, of mobilizing mass peasant support, particularly amongst the poor, most quickly.
so one of the influences on, on the progress of land reform is, is this interaction between ideology and pragmatism.
perhaps er er another way of looking at this would be to see it in terms of rightist deviations and leftist deviations and one might see erm the er the moderate policies er of thirty seven to forty nine i in a sense as being erm a rightist deviation, one might see forty six forty seven as being leftist deviations and the left is seeking to overcome rightist deviations, the right seeking to overcome leftist deviations and you've got some kind of oscillation between the two.
tt so that th the er there's that aspect to it, which i think er complements rather than contradicts the, the ideological pragmatism one.
another way of looking at this might be to say in a sense there are there are two bits, one is identifying where we are now and identifying in relation to both 
ideological position and in terms of, of the practical realities, both in terms of rightist and leftist deviations, where we want to be.
so in any one point in time the movement is going to depend on identifying exactly where you are at the moment in terms of any of the cycles and where it is you want to get to in relation to, to a particular situation facing you.
so i think there are, there are all those kind of bits which are there in terms of the understanding of, of where policy was and where it was going.
tt now if we just take that, that latter point up for a minute we can
look in early nineteen forty eight where we are,wh where the land reform process had taken the communist party tt and then we could begin to look forward to where policy was going to go from there in terms of the military, political, economic, ideological future and what i'm going to do today to, to begin with anyway is, is to just consider where we are and where it is we're gonna go and in a sense we could, it might be helpful to, to put ourselves back in a position of being the central committee again.
now what, what was emerging in the end of last week's discussion was that there's been the agrarian land law,land law of er october nineteen forty seven, absolute egalitarianism and a recognition certainly by the spring of nineteen forty eight that that had overstepped the mark at least in terms of its implementation in that it had in particular led to the encroachment of middle 
peasant and that that had had adverse consequences in terms of maybe economic output, certainly in terms of mobilization, certainly in terms of, of political effect on, on the middle peasant and therefore there had to be the, the correcting bit to this and that correction comes either very late forty seven but particularly early nineteen forty eight when the excesses of the, the campaigns and excesses against the middle peasants have to be, be corrected and there are very clear statements from mao that the middle peasant must not be encroached upon.
perhaps a bit more than that, the old nineteen thirty three class differentiation documents are reissued and they are reissued together with the supplements which we saw came out in the autumn of nineteen thirty three which and, and those supplements where then extended to allow the middle peasant to er up to twenty five, on some of the readings up to thirty percent, of his income from exploitation.
so it's not just the, the standard middle peasant who is being protected, it is if you like the well to do middle peasant who's being protected.
so there is, there is this very clear and i think very substantial protection for the middle peasant.
over and above that, mao is is in a sense coming up with, with a new set of proposals.
he he's arguing i think on a basis of, of the experience of the past few years that the situation now in china was a, was a rather variable one, that land reform had proceeded at different rates in different areas and because areas where different that had to be taken into account and mao explicitly was going back to the idea that in the newly liberated areas the policy would be one of rent reduction, interest rate reduction and that rent and interest rate reduction had to be established for some time until the position had consolidated around rent reduction, around interest rate reduction and once that had happened you would then be able to go into land reform itself.
in a sense mao is, is adopting very much the position that he seems to have taken erm in nineteen forty five when he's, he's looking forward to land return but saying at the moment our policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction will continue and at some stage we will then be able to move on into, to that reform.
so there's a clear policy for, for newly liberated areas.
as far as the old liberated areas were concerned, there was going to be a kind of land investigation again.
there would be a reassessment of how the land reform process had worked.
where it was found that middle peasants had been encroached upon, where it was found that middle peasants had been dispossessed erm that position would be rectified and that would be given back to middle peasants.
so very different policies for the old and new liberated areas.
and in a sense mao is saying that it's, it's not right to go straight for land reform, you, you've got to go for this policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction first.
and alongside this went a much stronger wash your face campaign and the names of the , names of party members were published.
erm mao was worried that as,i in the course of the, the latter stages of directive and the there had been abuses of the system by party members and that had led to the party getting a bad name with the peasants and the way to rectify that was to publish the communist party membership so everybody in the village would know who was a communist party member and they would be able to see, mao believed, that on the whole party members had behaved properly, they hadn't exploited the situation for their own advantage and where they have they would be, there would be a with them to correct.
now that i think is, is the position as of the spring of nineteen forty 
can i just stop there for a minute er er is this the best 
any, any points anything anybody would like to add to this?
did you call it wash your fact sort of?
mm.
yes i mean it, it can be, i think it can be .
it's not something which is introduced for the first time in nineteen forty eight but, but there is erm sort of another round of it erm and sort of the new dimension is that the, everybody's name is published because until then you, you didn't er you didn't know who the party members were.
mm.
right.
now we need to decide where to go from here.
now i, i, i er our, our, in a sense our policy now is that we're going to sort of readjust the policy in, in the north .
as we go into the south we are just going to conduct a rent reduction, interest reduction campaign and we, we will then aim to consolidate that position and at some stage we will then move forward into land reform again, but to do that we will probably need a new land law because we're recognizing the old agrarian land law is, is inappropriate,absolute egalitarianism is now dead in a sense of as erm it's sort of saying that, that as mao is arguing in may forty eight, may forty eight that absolute egalitarianism is wrong.
so, so, so that bit of it we've, we've moved forward .
er are you happy with this idea that, that sort of the immediate future in the newly liberated areas is, is just rent reduction, interest rate reduction, consolidate that and then move on?
do does this seem to be the right policy?
it would have more affect in the south 
on the moderate side erm it would, would stand a better chance than 
yes, right.
and as a starting point
yes.
and there's more of a justified presence.
so that it, it would actually fit the conditions in the south in terms that we are, you're moving into an area of, of higher tenancy and therefore rent reduction, interest rate reduction is, would have a significant effect.
right.
you say this rent reduction?
oh cos i, i thought they erm they had the three different areas
mm
but erm i thought forty eight, areas where and carry out 
yes, i, i think that was that was still when the i think that was still in a sense under the auspices of the old agrarian er of the of forty seven was still being given by .
erm i think bro broadly, certainly by the time you've got through to the later spring th th there is y yes i mean i in a sense there are sort of three areas if you like but, but very broadly the areas which had not been taken over yet i is very much a slower process of consolidation and then you wait for the next rule.
er you're happy with this, this seems okay in terms of policy 
doesn't it seem slightly odd though?
in the sense that, in a way going on from what i was saying on the face of it south china ought to be the area where land reform will be easiest to achieve in the sense that here you've got a society which is landlord dominated, heavily landlord dominated and therefore w where one would expect that the antagonism, antagonisms between landlords and tenants would be at their greatest.
i in, in the north you've got a higher proportion of owner-occupiers and 
you perhaps haven't got the same degree of landlord exploitation, you might, i think one might argue from, from what we said earlier that in the north you've got a s a slightly more paternalistic landlord, it's, it, there's less, less absentee landlordism landlords were more likely to have been behaving within the confines of moral economy wouldn't, wouldn't have been tt erm reducing rents, it was done on a much more, more personal sort of scale.
you move into the south which is the area where landlord exploitation might have been at its most intense, where you would expect antagonisms to be greatest, where one would expect that peasants would be actually demanding land reform and, and indeed if you, you go back to, to the you've clearly got that almost spontaneous underlying radicalism because of the, the intense landlord exploitation.
what we're saying on the whole is that we, we are moving south erm militarily we, we now control most of north china, we begin to move on to the into areas of very high tenancy where landlordism was thought to be at its extreme but all we're doing is reducing rents and interest rents.
i think if, if they adopted a policy of erm of struggle last time, i mean they would get to land reform indirectly but i don't think you can erm initiate it from the party as such like because that causes all sorts of problems through definitions and things like that but 
yeah i think right but i think the way of analyzing is through just saying you, what are your grievances and then ultimately that will result in landlords being driven out.
right.
so they've learnt that they can't implement land reform unless they've got the support of the popular masses and it's got to come from them cos ultimately they, they're pursuing land reform in order to get the peasant support and if that's not what they want there's no point in just erm imposing it on them.
you've got to, the peasants have got to be demanding it themselves.
alright, so what you've learnt from the experience in north china is that you are actually better off to go in fairly gently
mm.
and begin the process and then allow the peasants to kind of take it over, to become involved, to become vocal and to become activated.
and you've got to educate the masses and perhaps instil erm more revolutionaries, sort of a more, a culture that actually sees that they're not gonna gain just material benefits but how that this is in order to advance society forward.
mm.
yes and take control of them in terms of direction and so on.
yes.
mm.
in a sense though you're putting a lot more emphasis on the party.
you're saying it's the, it's the, it's the party that, that erm mobilizes them, there is, there is actually very little spontaneous revolutionary charge within the peasantry.
that, that you've got to create it for them.
i mean by just doing this sort of settling of accounts is that creating it for them?
er i mean is that creating a sparkle?
i think i mean it's a, it's a very small sparkle just saying 
now's a chance to erm 
is, isn't the idea that 
most likely to make people believe that they can achieve a certain thing and let them get up and do it and erm so that the party's role is in the initial stage fostering as much mobilization
yes.
creating a common consciousness and then let the peasants go with that.
not do actually do the land reform themselves, but to create the conditions whereby they can believe in themselves.
right.
so land reform is, is, and this will be very counter to nineteen forty seven, land re land reform is, is not now the means of mobilizing the masses, you have to mobilize the masses for land reform.
and this rent reduction, interest rate reduction together with the kind of settling accounts procedure which presumably will come out of this is the means by which you mobilize the masses and once you've got them mobilized, you can then move on to land reform.
but it's, it's premature to go for land reform straight away.
yeah.
i, i 
bring up this point about the masses being were the masses revolutionary or not
yeah.
and i remember doing my first, one of my first essays erm saying that i didn't think they were and all that they were erm was the fact that er er of and you said to me at the end that's fine as far you've argued it but i think you'll change your views as you go on and i don't know if i have.
right .
so erm i don't whether or not i s i still don't think they were ultimately revolutionary, i think they were just erm people who they think were exploiting them at the time sort of erm you know in a certain situation 
just because they weren't revolutionary doesn't mean that they didn't have the potential to become revolutionary 
i know.
sure.
yeah.
and erm it was 
but they di didn't have the idea of revolution in themselves, they didn't have the idea of overthrowing the landlords themselves.
but maybe cos there was no opportunity, they didn't see there to be i mean like they didn't know any better but as soon as, i mean things are rapidly changing they're given the opportunity to erm i mean through the struggles to actually take charge of the conditions and to gain so some material and perhaps there was beginnings of them seeing that well perhaps we ought to look more to this sub-culture and to erm 
well i mean it's 
change their values.
it's very party initiated isn't it?
the party's giving 
putting these ideas into their heads of erm creating a society in which 
but then the peasants surely should be able to choose to accept or reject what the party is trying to instil in a way.
yeah.
but i mean it's the idea, the idea is coming, is not coming from themselves, it's coming from the party that, that er that you can create a system without landlords.
it has to though because if in the pa if they've had this long-term sort of culture for all this time they need to be given ideas but essentially if their traditional values were so strong they would have rejected what the communist party was trying to say, but because they accepted it it meant they ha they did actually have the potential to be revolutionary.
and going on from that surely we argue that the may the fourth directive came about or certainly was, was put out as this is what the peasants three times the peasants had demanded land return i e they were in advance of the party, they were more radical, they, they were, in a way they were saying look this, this rent reduction is not enough we want a much stronger programme, we actually want the land reform.
and that's what the directive says?
yes.
well maybe they 
but that's, that's entirely logical 
the, the more you argue for this economy, and the more you argue no this is, this really is how the peasant felt and he that the peasant really erm didn't have any ideas of changing society at that of the landlord system the more i assume that one would support this kind of rent reduction, interest rate reduction campaign which allows you to slowly build up that mobilization which is necessary.
the,th th th the o the other thing that is i think, i think there is something in this, is that there was, at least within some sections of the peasantry, erm er a, a kind of erm revolutionary zeal which they were building themselves and they were wanting to go beyond the party.
and, and that would derive from cases where landlord exploitation was particularly severe and therefore peasants were saying no rent reduction, interest rate reduction is not enough, we want to go further than that now.
and i think there is that element there.
mm.
and you think that's not just a sort of relatively recent phenomenon in the sense of you know, the sort of mid nineteen thirties or you think it's always been there?
you know just an idea 
yeah whether or not you whether or not you think it's been induced by the fact that, that they've heard what happened in and they think that they can start doing that as opposed to ch as opposed to just saying we're going to exist by creating 
sure, there may be some thinking that, there may also though be er if you move through to the forties you're,y you're twenty years on from the nineteen twenties, you, you've had and you've had deterioration in agricultural conditions er as, as we've seen you've got erm increasing landlord absenteeism, you, you've got a downward, an upward pressure on rent in terms of how much was having to be paid in real terms, all of those things might have come together to, to, to push the peasant over and to push him outside .
it it's it's a possibility
mm.
erm i, i don't i, i would be a little unhappy saying the peasant still, in the nineteen forties, was st totally still bound by foreign economy
mm.
but clearly there, there is an element of that, there is an element that they'd gone beyond it that's that that bit is difficult to define and quantify.
what was erm how, how badly was the south by affected by the japanese, i mean what were the peasants likely to have gone through in the last few years?
erm they would not have gone through the same sort of occupation.
erm the japanese presence in the south was, was more just along the coast, they, they, they'd taken the trading ports erm and they had some of the interior but on, on the whole south china had not been dominated by the japanese,th th th their base was very much the north china plain and, and spreading across towards the communist areas .
i mean they cut in through manchuria down the north to, to, across to north china plain, had taken the cities on the eastern seaboard which was what they wanted, i mean th th they really wasn't any point in controlling the rural south, it would have taken so many troops, so much administration if they'd that then they had everything they wanted from the trading ports so there wasn't that japanese presence and so the clearly was different.
mm.
so they're not trying to, you know, get themselves back together again having erm you know, the japanese having left and, you know 
the villages have been razed and all that sort of stuff?
er there would have been some cases where that had happened erm and clearly the nationalists had withdrawn from most of southern china into, into south west china and therefore erm th th there'd been er and there was quite a lot of fighting going, still going across south china so i it's not quite the same .
the nationalists don't have so much of hold now over the south.
er they do after, yes th the, the nationalists had moved back across the south after nineteen forty five erm th th they'd, they'd retreated from the japanese progressively after nineteen forty one and abandoned shanghai and etcetera.
they now moved back, in sympathy with the japanese surrender, they moved back and the nationalists took shanghai and really controlled the whole of, of south china again so that the, the old landlord system had been re-established.
sorry you were going to say something.
erm no what coming out of this is that how that although one would assume in the south that the peasants ought to be more revolutionary, in actual fact it's the reverse and why is this happening, is it because of the fact that the communist party were in the n that maybe essentially that the peasants in china er were reactionary and worked within the confines of moral economy, but because of the presence of the communist party in the north they became more revolutionary and that's sort of suggested by the success of land reform there and the fact that how, that they can't implement it in the south.
or is it because there's a different culture in the north and south because the, the two parts of china are very different, so you don't know whether it's the communist party that's determining this difference or whether it's just because of a difference of culture there.
and it's, it's difficult for us to tell because we don't have that many regional studies to be able to know exactly what it was that was determining these differences of values.
yes, but there might be some important differences that we would want to bring up, which we, we perhaps could take a bit further.
erm there might for example be economic differences.
now tt if you look at it this way,le let's suppose that the communist party was successful in its military campaign and it, it takes military control of south china, which it was beginning to then, and did up to nineteen forty eight 
could you, and therefore its political position is becoming increasingly secure erm and the there was no major military threat to land reform.
there was no reason in terms of a a, a military position why you shouldn't have introduced land reform in, in the way that going through and you are moving into an area where as we've seen landlordism was at its 
and peasant antagonism ought to have been greatest and therefore you on the face of it it seems surprising doesn't it that land reforms didn't take place immediately, or they weren't attempting land reform to take place immediately.
i mean if, if, if you were looking from outside and you were going to choose an area that you were going introduce land reform you would choose south china wouldn't you?
now is, is the fact that they don't do that, they still go for this rent and interest rate reduction is it because of the experience of the north, they found that the best way in the north was to go for rent reduction, interest rate reduction and then go on, and they were simply taking that experience into the south, but taking it into a different area where it was no longer necessary or appropriate?
mm.
it's not such a pragmatic thing then because 
one of things you said earlier on you said when you do become very radical erm it's, the distinctions between become blurred
mm.
that erm one of the most important things is to keep up your production
right.
and therefore if you're gonna er introduce this radical land reform straight away, i mean say there is no landlord but there's a peasant, or i mean unless the party's ac completely active 
mm.
and they're gonna get hit.
right.
and basically what they need to do is create peasant economy to increase production as they learn from the land.
ah right.
so if you go too radical you're gonna hit production, and you're gonna step back which 
right, and are you beginning to say that production is coming to be a more important criteria now?
yeah i think so.
well it certainly has but there's still kind of elements of 
i think especially when they find out that there's not much land to go round as they ash assumed.
assume that if you give them a population that owned seventy eight percent of the land and find out fifty percent of the land , then you, you know, you can't just give land, everyone's not just gonna have land, you have to increase production to make everyone better off.
mm.
right.
so whereas in the north the, in a sense the, the main criteria was mobilization as you're moving south in the new situation a new criteria is, is production.
you need, you need, you need mobilization you need 
yeah.
support, but then even more you need production.
yeah.
right.
there's also another problem with land reform in i can't really see how they could implement land reform without reverting to similar sorts of they used in which is defining class distinctions and the chaos that that causes and the problems it causes erm it is almost as if , if you go back to erm settling of accounts
mm.
okay you're erm you're getting rid of your communist ideas you're finding a smoother way to getting erm to achieving a similar sorts of effects 
hit the top end get a cross-section o of, but you still get the same, ultimately the same sorts of results erm by, by erm by adopting that policy whereas if you go for trying to draw distinctions, you end up erm 
right so it's, yes, so, so, so the danger is, is chaos and the movement gets out of hand and 
right.
one way around that might be then to have enough cadres on the ground in order to, to do it properly.
i mean even, in a sense you, you, you're worried about the excesses.
yeah.
but also the administration of and trying to rectify the 
right.
right.
s so the, the more you've got, the less that is 
yeah the, the less but i still think there's a fundamental problem with drawing the distinction 
right.
right.
fine.
erm but maybe this, this issue is, is, could be important in the sense that you, you've got tt er if you take china as a whole you've probably got well in excess of a million villages erm you've probably got a denser population in the south than the north so you've got more than half a million villages in the south 
okay, and if you're going to conduct land reform you've got to have an effective land reform team to go into each of those villages.
erm so you, you, and you, you're looking of, of land reform teams of four, five members so you're, you're looking at somewhere between two and three million cadres to go into the villages.
and you've got two or three million cadres, trained cadres who know what they're doing, are experienced, who knows what the south is 
who know what the south is like.
so that there, there may be a, an important personnel problem th th that you realize that well okay the option of going for land reform is, is there but you're saying er it's likely trouble my experience of the past is that, that radical land reform is, is disruptive it could affect production, it could get out of hand, it could alienate people in order to control them we need a lot cadres on the ground and we haven't got them.
well even if you 
did have them would it, would it 
definitely be for the better?
i mean they were, they were still so corruptible.
or had that changed were they, were they mo more educated now and less corruptible?
who?
the cadres.
the cadres.
because to some extent erm
yeah.
the rightist and leftist deviations were, were because of them.
yes.
er so you would you would need a very heavy rectification programme to sh to ensure, not just that you had enough cadres, but that the cadres were going in with, with the right attitudes.
erm it, that would take time, i mean it's,th that would be very difficult to control.
yeah.
you're right so it's, so it's not just in terms of the number of the cadre, it's the quality of the cadre, and, and you can't just erm er i mean you can't just pick, you can't you've gotta educate them, create them etcetera, yeah.
in applying that how that they didn't implement land reform because it wasn't viable but if erm another way of looking at it is that how the communist party no longer saw land reform as the best way, means of achieving greater 
yes.
egalitarianism and that how that increased production was seen as the you know, priority, and so perhaps they would want to just i mean it might seem appear that they were changing their policy to a more moderate land reform but this was not an end in itself it was a means to an end in order to increase production which would benefit the population as a whole, so it's, they still had the same goal
yeah.
which is to achieve greater equality but you're having different means to achieve that.
right.
it, it, it's a different means to an end, it's a much slower means to an end
mm.
in the, in the sense that i if, if you look,i if you adopt a sort of retrospective view, i e if you look back from say anything after nineteen forty nine and you say look, hold on erm this was the final stage of the revolution.
the communists had never been in a better position than they were in in, in nineteen forty eight, the civil war was, was clearly going in their favour erm they were to achieve power within eighteen months and at precisely the point where they had everything going for them, they are adopting the most moderate policy.
if there was any time when radical land reform would have succeeded, it was during nineteen forty eight to nineteen forty nine, and it's precisely that time looking into an area which would seem to be the most favourable for radical land reform, they have not taken that opportunity.
how much control did they have over ?
well they're getting increasing control, increasing control but not and er so yo what you're saying is that, is that even if, if you go back to the reality of nineteen forty eight, actually they didn't realize they were going to get that control as quickly.
they, they were seeing as being an, a longer drawn out struggle
mm.
not, which, one which would not be over in a year and a half.
i mean we've, i mean at that point you've got that was the point where you've got the massive united states aid coming in erm you, you've got erm united states equipping china with all enormous fire power, sending tanks in etcetera, i mean this was the beginning of, of the realization of the united states that, that the communists were a threat and they didn't like it and they, they were putting massive ai aid erm and, and that there was all that united states war machine erm 
and this, this other thing as well about erm which is obviously and erm i think what they had in mind was that before you start doing anything radical, before you start having any real land reform at all, you have to ensure that you really have control of that area, he's had this 
yes, right.
experience of trying to, trying to put through land reform in erm areas which then led to just incredibly bad
yes.
cos all the sort of people communists they're all just full of hot air and just really get lost 
right.
the important lessons they learnt cos at first they thought land reform would enable them to achieve mass mobilization
yes.
but now they realize that however you need to have mass mobilization in order to have successful land reform 
right.
right.
and so land reform was no longer seen as a means to achieve their end that they that and that it wasn't the best policy to consolidate power, it was you needed to have the mass support there first so that's why land reform was no longer seen as their goal so they didn't take it up at this point when one would expect them to pursue it.
it's, well it's still a goal but it's one step off?
yeah.
right.
so, so there are two bits, there's, one is th that you need the the, the, the evidence from the north is that you need mobilization in order to get land reform and the way to get mobilization is rent reduction, interest rate reduction and then sort of the, the struggle meetings and that provides the activism to go to land reforms and the other bit is, is the military one,th that you've learned that if you're going to go through with land reform and keep the support, you've got to make sure you've got your military security first.
erm and because in, even in nineteen forty eight, you couldn't guarantee that 
you were better off to, to play it cautiously.
if you put the two together erm you i it becomes understandable why they, they adopted these policies to the south, even though sort of from what happened the first time particularly in a retrospective way, the expectation would be you would, this would be the are where you would go for land reform straight away.
i mean in, in, in retrospect they probably could've achieved it because they, they got the military er they, they, they did get the military security and you probably could've afforded actually to, to mobilize the peasants through land reform.
i if, if you could have got some cadres on the ground, you know, so, so the other bit of this is is if you are going to go for land reform you've got to have, not just the military presence and military security, but enough trained honest highly motivated cadres.
surely erm part of the problem 
ah right.
obviously 
right so we, we, we also need a new land reform document, because we can't use the because egalitarianism we've, we've recognized from the experience of the north is wrong, that's not gonna work so we need something else.
right.
fine.
so one of the things we're going to, to do is to, to see what that new land reform document might be.
before we do that can i just take up one other point.
, sorry
two reasons policy, one was the er military secured area 
erm what was your question?
wouldn't, wouldn't you need the peasant mobilization first?
yes.
before the land re before you could have successful land reform.
sorry i lost my place.
erm
erm well th th th yeah but th th th there's, there's the military security you need erm you, you need er tt you've got to have the, the, the personnel to be able to do it
mm.
and you've recognized that there are dangers if you, if you try and mobilize people too quickly i i it, it needs to be done slowly.
but is there also the, the, the idea of,a and in a sense one thing you haven't actually got an appropriate land reform 
so you have to actually figure a new one out before we can 
?
do you have something like a sort of guide book, you know how to conduct 
ca can we, that, that's after 
break for coffee.
one other thing before that.
is, is it possible to argue that the south is fundamentally different in terms of its ?
tt er if, if, if you go back to some of the things we were looking at last term er er this idea of commercialization tt er argue that the south was a very different type of country to the north, that it is commercialized at least to a much greater extent
and i if, i mean i if you take 's argument, if you take 's argument, they are all to do with, with provinces in the south and, and the argument is that here we have, we are looking at a commercialized viable economy and both and and for example are all arguing really that landlordism is not the problem the problem is that you, you, you, you you need to go further in terms of commercialization and that that, and that's the way to go.
i e you're not really looking at a feudal economy in the south any more i it may be a much more heavily commercial capitalist economy and therefore the kind of land reform programme that you might incorporate from a feudal north might not be entirely relevant.
so there might be something in the argument that, that it's not just a, a question of what you've learned from the north, but there may be a recognition that the economy in the south is different, or at least they might be arguing, those who are arguing that the economy in the south is different and that, that reform might not be necessary, it might not even be appropriate in the south.
it's a possibility.
did the communist party know that though?
cos surely they'd want to try to make peasants see that exploitation was i mean cos there was still an agrarian problem in the south, just because it was more commercialized and economically viable there was still thousands, tens of thousands of people who were starving and stuff so erm did the communist party recognize this difference in the economy, in the economic structure between the north and the south?
i mean we can because we've studied it and had all the statistics and stuff.
and would they wanted to have believed it.
i don't think they s th th they obviously didn't see it in, in quite the terms that 
but i think there was an awareness that there was likely to be much more opposition to, to land reform in the south.
not s in a sense just by individual feudal landlords, but by landlords saying well i'm, i'm not really feudal anyway, that i've moved on from that, i am a commercial landlord rather than a feudal landlord.
this is the difference?
mm.
you don't have any of this sort of you have to work 
dates that they had sort of like bonds in which they have to work to supply labour for certain dates on their land instead of feudal ties 
exactly.
yeah,
yes.
as opposed to that was a part of being a tenant, you know, for the honour of you pay me rent but you also come and work on my land for how many days 
but as such just because you're hiring people that's still going to be, in marxist terms, seen as exploitation.
right.
but it might be in but it, it is, it is 
i i that was right,th th th there is a i that they could be, if you like, capitalist landlords and feudal landlords.
now capitalist landlords might be the development certainly in terms of production you, you might be disrupting a viable, commercial, capitalist orientated economy, and would you really want to do that?
well no if you tried to then you, you'd be in some difficulty rules which, you know 
yes.
commercial industrial society 
yeah.
yeah.
and it might also be that 
the landlords in saigon are if you like more commercial, more capitalist, it might be they were better organized than landlords in the north.
i mean th th th the clan links in the south were much stronger than they were in the north, and therefore there might be even greater commercial landlord opposition to land reform than there had been in the north.
was the south not more erm densely populated as well?
yes.
yeah.
so you'd end up putting much smaller sort of bits of land
yes.
for each peasant which is going to harm production too.
so there's gonna be less
there's, there's less
inequality or
there's a greater pressure of population therefore are you saying that, that land reform might at least on the model tried in the north, might not yield any economic benefits 
mm.
in terms that, that th th the erm land to released would be relatively small?
yes.
right.
so the economic gains from land reform in the south might not be that great.
i mean you, the, the more you argue the south is a viable economic system, the less there is to gain from land reform.
erm 
and stuff like that 
i mean the amount of land each family will get if you redistribute land, then the land for the family is not gonna be able to support the family.
right.
but
yeah.
yes 
mm.
yes.
erm i, i think i might have missed adam's point and i was going back to whether the south was more efficient than the north because just tying it in with the seminar we had on managerial farms, weren't there more in the north than in the south?
and so then that would just prove that how, managerial farms weren't that much more efficient?
er i think those are separate issues.
you, you, you're right to say that on the whole there, the managerial farms were in, in the north, although there w there was clearly some in the south
mm.
erm i don't think this in itself said anything about level of efficiency of managerial farms.
erm i think it's, it's saying more about how how we categorize this economy in the south, it clearly, it, it's not a managerial 
mm.
erm but that, the fact that there were managerial farms in the north might erm have er er important implications for the kind of land reform document we would want to draw to accommodate the situation in the north as well.
yeah my problem is just erm having said that we don't think land reform should go ahead in the south because it's a fairly efficient set up 
mm.
then the, the main problem is rent because presumably it all, all starts being creamed off the top so, okay you don't have to redistribute land, but you can still get rid of the landlords and the people who are erm taking away the surplus
right.
from, from the , you could either do it by a method of taxing landlords so heavily
yes.
that it's barely worth their while to erm to employ try and get rid of them by doing that er which er which means that there shouldn't be redistribution of land that much and therefore
right.
s yes so rent reduction will, could make a significant difference in the south because you've essentially got a landlord tenant society
yeah.
and you, it might open the way for peaceful land reform
yeah.
mm.
i mean if, if you er er the whole experience of was that you could get rent reduction and interest rate reduction relatively peacefully so you wouldn't get disruption etcetera and you wouldn't get disruption and what, what you might come to recognize as a more , a more viable agricultural system.
so peaceful land reform based around rent reduction, interest rate reduction, might be the ultimate strategy for given your learning process in the north, given the nature of the economy in the south.
so if you, i mean, to go back to our initial proposition, whilst on the face of it it seems curious that in the area in south china where one would expect land reform to be easiest to achieve the communists adopt a much more moderate, slower, cautious policy but for a whole variety of reasons we, we're, we're tending towards the view that that would be the most appropriate anyway.
yeah.
right.
and er so, so, so we are er ou out of this it's er we're still, we're still committed to land reform are we?
we st we still want to achieve land reform because that ultimately is, is going to be the only way of ensuring that we end feudalism and the proper benefits go to the poor.
so we, we, we've got in a sense this holding exercise of rent reduction, interest rate reduction but we are going to need a new land reform document to take us through, i mean certainly once we get to nineteen forty nine and we are in power,th th we, we are gonna want land reform aren't we?
mm.
sure, do, we do need land reform?
isn't it?
right.
okay so we are,w w we're now in a position of, certainly by nineteen forty nine we're, we're on the verge of power, we want l we, land reform is not taking place any more, there are still some areas in the north it hasn't taken place out in the far north west it hasn't taken place, so we, we, we are going to need a new land reform document based on all the experience we've got which will carry us through and, and it's really that land reform document, document that we are going to implement for the whole of china, and it's going to be that document which really is going to abolish feudalism and create some sort of equality.
well let's have some coffee and then come back and 
we've gotta devise a new land reform law.
what's our priority?
what, what, what really is the land reform to achieve now?
of feudalism 
you've gotta 
right.
yeah.
protect commerce and industry.
protect commerce and industry.
yeah, i guess it's all 
just looked after go on.
erm well erm it's that 
yeah.
we are now in power but i don't think that presumably proved that we can run an economy efficiently 
mm.
and
once we've got that then we have the resources from that i think to introduce other programmes that take
mm.
quite a long time to implement, for example 
mhm.
erm 
wh when you're saying to run the economy, do you mean the rural economy or the economy, you know, china as a whole?
well let's say we've moved on to and we're into nineteen forty nine say
yeah.
and we've in nineteen forty nine 
and w w w we are either half controlled or we're, we can now see that you know the civil war is, is going so quickly our way that we are going to have control within a year or so we are likely to have control over the economy as a whole.
d does that begin to make a difference?
yes because now 
right.
yes.
so we then have to coordinate our policies
mm.
erm this is going to be really hard work .
it's got, i mean, surely the, the middle peasants or even the rich peasants the group of people that are gonna be most productive in the economy erm so you know your reform has to be fairly moderate in that sense that they have to be able to promote 
right.
economic growth and, and 
right.
so in a very broad sense agriculture is going to have to con contribute to china's, china as a whole's economic development
mm.
i e to, to, and will contribute to china's industrialization because once we are in control industrialization will be necessary.
so agriculture will have to play a role in that and therefore we want to increase agricultural output and in order to do that you want to protect the middle and rich peasants who are the most efficient producers, or i e managerial farms if, if they are more efficient, you want to, if you want it would not make sense to take land away from rich peasants in order to give to poor peasants when rich peasants might be more efficient producers.
well it depends how quickly the poor peasants can achieve more efficiency how quickly they can do that.
right.
yes, so, so, so you're taking decisions in terms of well which are the most efficient 
within the countryside and how can we create those m those .
that er that, that, i mean that efficiency thing is becoming an important consideration in a way which we, we, we've not mentioned before.
mm.
well i mean surely it's, that's the point now is to try to make a fair erm law and one that is ideologically erm designed seeing we've got to power, or we've got certainty of obtaining power, therefore land ownership has got to be land ownership which has been capitalism marxist 
so th th is becoming more complex.
i i in the past our aim with land reform has been very largely erm we want to end feudalism and we want to maximize mobilization we, we're now saying okay we, we still want to those, but we, we've also got to ensure that somehow we have a land law which ensures that agriculture will play a role in china's industrialization and so we will get maximum efficiency from the agricultural sector as well as mobilization, as well as ending feudalism.
er er we could say that we've got a much bigger range of aims and does that mean that we are more likely to have 
it's going to be very difficult isn't it, for us to be able to achieve all of those aims at the same time.
well er i mean well things like communal ownership advocate them to be reforms 
you can move beyond the efficiencies of erm of the erm managerial systems or the existing systems by erm creating, you could do coll collectives and then using state support to erm bring in erm more capital
you reckon state collectives do you?
well well you, you can advocate erm mutual aid and all these sorts of things which erm which are erm a step towards, i mean i'm not saying they're directly 
you can encourage it without how the
right.
agricultural system works.
so you might actually want to put something of that in to your land reform 
yeah and, and you can have erm through loans etcetera you can start increasing 
right.
capital which 
yes.
you could get into a situation which is beyond managerial farms anyway because you've got more capital 
are they gonna have the resources to do that though?
from the government.
ha?
it's from the gov the government 
but where does the government get the money from?
the same place it got the the erm tt the money for 
twenty er twenty or something in, in loans.
well 
i dunno 
wouldn't you, and that's what's 
well yeah 
right questions er on that , yeah, okay.
erm going back to your point, we, we are operating within the context of a new democracy, right, which is, is, is broadly a kind of democratic approach erm i e that it's, it's an indication of a sort of the bourgeois revolution but within that you're saying it's not just a democratic revolution, it's a new democratic revolution and within that there will be elements of socialism being created.
so we, we are not just creating capitalism per se we are building in that direction er but there will be elements of socialism there which we can then build on and take us forward.
so our, our land reform is going to have to reflect that so you would expect to see elements, perhaps, of socialisms being created.
okay.
so, so th th that would be some of the thinking which would lie behind sitting down and, and and drawing up a, a reform document a land reform document, in the very late nineteen forties.
sh i mean to, to my mind, shouldn't the land ownership possibly one of the key issues cos that is if you have land ownership and then you're just paving the way for the new capitalist society and to, you know,according to marxist theory which i think is a pretty dodgy one,they have to go from capitalism to achieve socialism 
right.
socialists , which is just a load of rubbish if you ask 
okay.
but, but, but, but our experience of the past 
did not get the peasants to support us unless we give them that.
yeah.
that's right, so that's what i'm 
saying if, if 
want to do that 
abolish land ownership then it would suggest they're going for a ideologically based
right.
land reform, if they don't it's suggesting it's just another means of obtaining power by fragmenting 
erm or, or a pragmatic in terms of erm you want to minimize disruption, you actually want to get production going and the way to get production going is to give the peasants the land themselves.
yeah, that's right.
which isn't really erm compatible with social with communism.
i don't see how you can argue it is, i don't see how anyone can.
right.
erm but it
shh 
it would suggest it's just not a transitory stage.
but, but but ending feudalism is the first important stance.
well that's what they argue, yes.
but i mean feudalism
okay.
it's hardly communism is it?
erm no, but you're, at least you're getting out of feudalism.
well yeah but capitalism 
but you can't go straight for socialism or communism.
well that's what they said but why not?
because
i mean that's just rubbish, they said you have to go to 
capitalism and then, then naturally evolve into socialism communism.
well, but we, no we're not saying that, what we're saying is that we so all we're trying,w w w that they were saying we can't go from cap er from feudalism to socialism but we don't want to go just from feudalism to capitalism, we want to go into er if you like a capitalism with socialist characteristics.
we, we want there to be elements of socialism built into the capitalism we're creating which will allow us to go straight into, to socialism in the future.
mm
and supposed to see the superiority of socialism in this capitalist 
what socialism anyway?
well there was a, there was a debate or something and that's when the committee 
erm i'm not sh w w well would you really have, have, have worried about that at the time?getting out of feudalism then why exactly how you're gonna go from there.
i mean as long you are going in a way which is setting up getting through to socialism as soon as possible, i'm not sure there would be any point in thinking about those issues until you've got a bit further.
i mean i'm, i i dunno.
i was just, i mean did they really believe that it would, it would just lead straight on to socialism?
i, i, i think they probably believed that, that, that the best way to get into socialism was to begin to create socialist elements from the start, that would facilitate the move erm and once you'd got full control, i mean this is where, where there might be kind of bits you can say that once, once we, we need to make these assurances to get us out of feudalism.
once we, once we are out of feudalism and once we have political control we can dictate wherever we want to go and once we've got full control we will go into socialism.
but as of, as of nineteen forty eight forty nine, if you'd said you'd gone into a village, right you guys we're going into socialism, we are gonna create collective farming the peasants would have said no.
so there position in nineteen forty nine wasn't re in effect all that secure cos
no.
of the personnel that
right.
i mean th th th th they were on the way to military security, but were they going, they, they, they recognized they had to carry the population with them.
i think there, there was a genuine democratic element to this that, that it,i i i it wasn't going to be forcible socialism, it was going to be socialism which would come naturally because that would be what the population wanted.
mm.
and that, that would come gradually.
well you, you could do the sort of token gesture of giving them the land like they did in the past, at least that's showing what some sort of communism
in order to get the support, yes, and to or in order to end feudalism, which was, was the, the priority.
after that it's anybody's guess.
okay.
let's, let's have a look at the, the document 
so have you all got one you can you can see ?
so, article one feudal exploitation by the landlord class shall be abolished and the system of peasant land ownership shall be introduced in order to set free the rural productive forces, develop agricultural production and thus pave the way for new china's industrialization .
so that the, the, the two main aims are, are stressed there, you are gonna end feudal exploitation and you are going to create a new system which will set free the force of rural production in order to pave the way for new china's industrialization.
so for, for the first time the revolution is given an economic goal in that it is to set up industrialization and in a sense the ending of feudalism and the creation of industrialization emerge as, as the two forces whereas up until now it has been feudalism perhaps egalitarianism.
so it's we, we've already, that, that already has changed significantly.
er you've then got a series on confiscation confiscation and retribution of land, so article two, land, draught animals, farm implements and surplus grain the landlords surplus houses shall be confiscated.
other, other property shall not be confiscated so you're gonna take all the land, animals, implements from the landlords, you're gonna take their surplus grain, their surplus houses into the countryside but, but nothing else you, you're gonna take from landlords.
er you're gonna take in rural land belonging to, to shrines, temples, monasteries, churches, schools, organizations etcetera etcetera etcetera industry and commerce shall be protected from infringement, industrial and commercial enterprises operated by landlords and the land and properties used by landlords to greater industrial shall not be confiscated erm you, you're worried that if you confiscate them they're simply broken up between people and those productory forces are disbanded.
so you, you, you're taking landlords farm assets, but you're not taking their industrial, commercial or urban assets at all.
and then er revolutionary armament d dependents, farmers, workers, staff professional workers, peddlers and others who rent out small pro portions of land because they're engaged in other occupations, or because they lack the labour power, shall not be classified as landlords.
if the average per capita of land held in such does not exceed two hundred percent of the average per capita land held in the locality it shall remain untouched.
so there's a group within the village that you are going to allow to own twice the average 
so you're enshrining inequality within it.
is there a a sort of suggestion of reward here?
you know there's some tenants 
well, er sure but what about commercial workers and peddlers and others who 
but there's already inequality by not stripping the landlords of anything but 
yeah.
tt and then we come to rich peasants, land owned by rich peasants and cultivi cultivated by themselves or hired labour and their other properties shall be protected from infringement.
so anything that the landlo er the rich peasant owns and works himself or cultivates by hired labour you're going to allow to keep.
and, over and above that, small portions of land rented out by rich peasants shall remain un untouched.
in certain special areas the land rented out by rich peasants may be requisitioned in part or in whole with the approval of the people's government at level or above.
you special permission to encroach on all of the rich peasant's land he rents out.
why do they use the word requisition instead of confiscate?
does requisitioning have the same connotations as confiscation?
so they are they're being harsher on landlords but on the rich peasants they're just taking back the land instead of 
requisition, if you're in the position say then it's like it's for a common cause
mm.
if you take away some of the land confiscate's a punishment.
yeah.
at the end of the day the effect is the same.
so i it's another, well it may, the effect may be the same but it's another way of drawing distinctions between landlords and rich peasants and you are treating landlords differently from rich peasants.
and then the last is if the portions of land rented out by rich peasants of a semi-landlord type exceed in size the land held by themselves and by their hired labour the land rented out shall be requisitioned.
but that would seem to imply that only if a rich peasant rents out more land than he owns and works either by himself or hired labour, he will be able to keep that all.
so a rich peasant will be able to keep all of the land he was working himself, all the land he was working by hired labour and land that he hired, er that he rented out as long as the amount he, he rented out did not exceed all of the land that he worked himself or used hired labour.
pretty generous position for rich peasants isn't it?
that's not clear exactly what that last bit says cos it's not saying like you all of the land they rent out, but i guess it just means the excess above which
right.
i think if i was a rich peasant i would be using that to argue that you could take my rented land, it was 
well so would i.
a leftist nut-case might 
right, yeah but fine.
but i mean th there is, if, i mean , that is generous to rich peasants.
it also sort of encourages them to farm as much land as they can to presumably rent more out.
yeah.
right.
land and other properties of middle peasants, including well to do middle peasants, shall be protected from infringement.
so we, we, we're still working to middle peasants being able to earn twenty five or thirty percent of their income from exploitation, either hired labour or renting out land and we won't touch it at all.
so the, the the only land that we are taking in is landlord land and the land that rich peasants rent out over and above, if er in size larger than the land they are going to continue to work, either themselves or with hired labour.
er we're not, we're not touching middle peasants at all, they're sacrosanct.
so they're still, they were still keeping to their aims of achieving greater equality, it was just not absolute equality egalitarianism.
that is you, you, you're miles away from absolute egalitarianism.
but
to rich peasant economy.
this rich peasant economy ought to benefit the population as a whole because it's increasing production and erm if it becomes more efficient then the rents won't have to so high the poor peo poor people benefit.
yeah but the only thing you're really doing is, is taking away this nominal erm exploitive relationship, you're still gonna be exploiting the of existing 
mm.
and you might, you might but there's still gonna be erm be certain divisions in the society perpetuating.
i actually think it's, it's, okay it's a more equal society, but it is by no means an equal society you're creating.
so i mean well let's go on then.
the distribution of land, all land under of production confiscate with the exception of those to be nationalized to be taken over by the peasant association, the unified 
distribution to poverty stricken peasants who their land .
production landlords should be given an equal share so that they can make their living by their own labour and thus reform themselves through labour.
er land should be distributed by taking village as a single unit, that should be distributed in a unified manner according to the population therein based on the principle of allotting the land to its present tiller and making necessary readjustments in land held by taking into consideration the amount, the quality and location of land.
so i it, it's the old nous quantity and quality coming in there.
er but basically you're going to give land back to the people who are tilling it because that's what they, they have an attachment to.
er and then going on to article twelve under the principle
of allotting land to the present tiller, land owned by the tiller should not be drawn upon for redistribution.
when rented land is drawn upon for distribution proper consideration sh should be given to the present tiller.
land he acquires through distribution plus his home land shall be slightly and suitably more than the land held in arbitrary distribution of the peasants who had little or no land.
should be the present tiller should re retain the approximate average per capita land, land holding in the in the locality.
so if you already own land you would end up with a larger unit than if you owned no land before.
so we are looking at creating a society with our rich peasants who are going to own significantly more than whatever the average is going to be, and significantly more than middle peasants.
we've then got well to do middle peasants, we've got middle peasants who would in turn 
own more than a part-owner, part-tenant before the revolution, who after the revolution would own more than a full tenant before the revolution.
maintaining differentials 
well basically, apart from landlords and the 
peasants, there's er something for everybody.
yes.
but landlords, oh no but they 
lan lan er and landlords get some land.
mm.
mm.
so you are about as far away from absolute egalitarianism as you can get, you are actually enshrining 
you are creating a system within the countryside which is based on inequality.
and then there's a, a series of er oh and they add er er during the people's governments or at or above the may in accordance with the local land agency set apart certain land bound to be nationalized and used for the establishment of experimental farms or one or more county's or model state farms, so there's provision for the creation of so a form of socialism over the countryside but it's, it comes a long way down the list.
quite token isn't it?
and very token, mm.
so our final document when, and this is, this is issued in june nineteen fifty, we are in power, we are a communist government and our land reform is one which enshrines inequalities, it protects middle peasants it in effect minimizes what it can give to the poor.
there is, there is no egalitarianism whatsoever.
there is very little provision, there is, there is token provision for the creation of socialism.
and, and this is what revolution has produced.
at precisely the point where we could have been at our most radical we are at our least radical, this is the least radical document that we've come across.
are you happy with this?
not particularly but i understand that er it is, you now have the whole of china which small areas erm relatively small areas, you've now got the whole thing, i mean if you start initiating very radical reforms, as you say you don't have the personnel or the resources to erm to prevent a, you know, a big change disruption.
yeah 
presumably you've gotta start somewhere haven't you?
you know you've gotta start somewhere, you can't just , you've gotta start somewhere 
yeah but the 
establish the principles
this is where you want to start then?
what?
no that's what i'm saying 
i'm saying that you know you, you should er perhaps try to establish some underlying principles to your policy.
but isn't there, isn't there a big difference between sort of recognizing the faults of past land reforms and advocating something like this?
why?
i mean it's not merely recognizing that past land reforms didn't work, it's a totally different policy.
th th th this in effect is creating capitalism in the countryside.
mm.
you've got private owned , you've got inequalities.
so the 
creates capitalism.
that's only because you're looking at it in a very short- term perspective, they, the way they saw the communist revolution was by a very long drawn out process and so it wasn't that the revolution had just created this was, this was an important step in order to lead to their ultimate goal.
and it just goes to show that the communist party were very forward looking but 
i, i would, i would be very surprised if the communists understood how deterministic idea of erm some sort of progression, i think you can't really say in about ten years' time we're gonna be here 
so it was pragmatic but it could also fit into their ideology in that how, that if they'd gone straight for socialism 
now come on, this, this is disgraceful.
there's no this is a disgraceful 
no but if they'd gone straight for 
document for a communist party to base land reform on.
there's no ideology at all.
absolutely, absolutely none.
i think it's only pragmatic in that it's maintaining production levels.
or helping production but 
so is this what, they certainly ?
yeah, this is it.
this is 
that's 
no, no
no but i mean the basis of it was presumably landlord out and china was based around this
yeah.
well it was for the next two years.
they didn't 
no, no.
oh right.
i mean this, these, these, these 
well that's alright then.
no, i mean we would, no 
so i mean this is just another basic erm 
yeah.
well in fact it, it it has in fact gone full circle because through the nineteen fifties you went through to co-ops to collectives to communes which lasted through to nineteen seventy eight, the communes were then disbanded and you're back, now, after reform which took very much system.
but, you know, if, if, if i'd have put, when we, when we started to talk at the beginning of this term we had at the beginning a general discussion about what are we gonna put in land reform, if i'd have come along to s to you and i'd said well i think we should do this 
we'd of laughed.
right.
and i, i, i, i, i, i would not have endeavoured to persuade you that this was going to be the land reform document that was, that this is it.
it doesn't surprise me that they did it.
but this isn't this is it?
i mean you said two years later change.
ah well sure but then the whole lot goes, but, but, but, but, but this was, this was the document, i mean the way this was put forward, this is going to last us through into the foreseeable future.
erm you know,th th th this er er it was a medium term horizon on this at the time.
are you saying that they didn't mean what they said then?
and that i mean cos mao said that how that you needed to have a moderate policy, that was the correct one 
absolutely.
in order to ha to achieve one's goals, are you saying that how look well you've just got to assume that they were wrong that they didn't mean what they said?
i mean it's perfectly 
yeah.
legitimate to think that how that they did think that this was a short-term goal in order to achieve their long-term objectives.
one, one might argue that erm one might argue that there is a cynical implication thereupon, one might argue that but, but in i i in exactly the same way at the moment you might argue that all the assurances they've given on hong kong are, are not worth the paper they're written on and, and, and as soon as the, soon as you get through to nineteen ninety seven they'll walk in.
er are, are you saying no that they, they are not er
but you see they wouldn't have been able to realize their goals in nineteen forty nine.
i mean, okay 
why not?
supposing if they had 
fifty they could, they could have gone they could have gone 
but could they?
were th were the peasants ready for it?
is that what the peasants wanted at that time?
ah.
well okay bu but in that sense are you saying that the learning experience was such that the peasant was so conservative and reactionary and so was all you could do?
yeah which peasants are you talking about?
mm.
are you talking, saying the peasant, i mean it doesn't mean anything does it, the peasant?
mm.
all peasants.
i mean it may just depend upon how secure the 
how, how would you have felt as a poor peasant 
i mean it really does depend upon how secure they were and how much, how much support,ge genuine support they had of the, the masses as a whole, because if they didn't then there's no way, and people weren't calling for them to establish socialism at that time were they?
would they have known what socialism was?
exactly.
and so how can the communist party 
but i mean 
just say right, we're gonna do this, this 
just because they don't know what it socialism 
theoretical concept or something, they might have known that they wanted 
yes but it's the basic underlying concept 
capitalism and becomes rich as the we western world then th they'll be all for that 
no, i just find that really difficult because they didn't have the means at that time to achieve it.
i mean we've already established the fact they didn't have, they didn't have the personnel to 
.
yes they did.
they were in power.
they were in power but i mean who's to say that the pe there's not gonna be a civil war and they'll be thrown out of power.
so why did they think that they had the er means to do it in nineteen forty seven?
you know when they said, when they went for a very radical policy 
well perhaps because they were more idealist and that now they're becoming more realist but they're still erm i mean they're learning from their past mistakes and they've seen that right so we have to have a moderate policy which is gonna take us a little bit further towards socialism.
they're not totally contradicting their ideals.
oh yeah 
it confirms our suspicions
at the last gasp we were right.
it's all this absolute power corrupts actually isn't it?
mm.
erm the, the people who did mao ?
or ?
well i mean there, there, there's no question about nineteen forty nine absolutely non no documents could have come out unless they had mao's approval.
mm.
er
did he shoot the other people involved by any chance?
that's behind this
right.
erm
i e it's the same person who comes up with 
i mean yeah as you say he's very high personable person, there must be some reason behind it er and a lot of the theoretical reasons that he says of 
of ideological progression, maybe he thought that, that, that erm the only, ultimately the only way to capitalis er to communism was through capitalism and he needs to establish a period of capitalism first.
sure yes.
and that's what sort of marx said.
so that 
yeah.
yeah but it doesn't mean that they're selling out completely does it because it
mm.
it means that it's just, it's a realization of, of the progression of communism is to establish a capitalist phase.
okay.
communism rather a, a weak theory doesn't it?
it's like saying 
well mao would do anything the communist party, let's make it capitalist society.
no because if you look at marxist writing it's,i it's, you go through certain stages and you can't achieve 
that's right.
and that's what's happening to us now 
that's just, that's just but why does it have to happen?
it doesn't.
if they really wanted they could've just gone straight for it.
if they'd really wanted to.
they wanted to make it work though and they couldn't have made it work unless they had had the i mean the right conditions to do so.
you could have you could have made it work.
you could've made it work if the peasants if the peasants were revolutionary, if the peasants had changed their value system and weren't and that there were very few who were still working within the economy.
so er 
are are you saying this is all that was possible because the peasant really was a capitalist at heart?
well it was very likely that this policy was gonna succeed 
in what?
and they was gonna take a bigger risk, in keeping them in power so that they can achieve their longer term ends.
but sh sh sure they can succ succ they can succeed in creating capitalism, it, it it, it might succeed in paving the way for new china's industrialization but we've gone a long way from any any ideological position, we've gone a long way from well what is in the best material benefiting class of the poor peasant now the poor peasant is not gonna get very much out of this.
it seems as if a disillusionment, the communists are trying you know, trying policies 
yeah.
and they're still not bloody work what can we do?
okay well we're in a really bad situation, i mean we can achieve something at least and perhaps oh perhaps communism doesn't work after all, they just seem to be doubting their own beliefs and what they've read.
and that's the only way i can see a way through this, thinking okay they've got this ideology, they've tried it twice and it still hasn't worked.
let's go back to the drawing board and try something else.
cos this, this is definitely not communism in any sense.
right.
i mean does, does this document surprise you?
i mean is 
yes.
is that what you thought the nineteen forty nine revolution was all about?
i'm not surprised it's come back erm to, to a sort of right is this an expression of mass mind do you think?
what do you think?
cos if it is communist behaviour 
there is, no there's no mass argument because you've got 
why not?
this different situation
that's not mass minded.
well it's quite, i'm sure that i'm sure, i'm sure that a lot of, i'm sure the rich peasant 
well there's about eight people 
cos really they're the only f you know they'll be going yeah that's my mass line alright 
well of course it is, yeah but that's not thing is it?
well, it is for them you see,
there, there's no such thing as an absolute mass line, the mass line in particular two types of people.
no that's not a mass mind then is it?
exactly.
well there's no such thing as a mass line then is there?
but anyway we, we, we'd better stop there.
but i think it's important we've, we've now got what what the policy was.
on the face of it it looks very much as though this is erm very little social justice 
what, what i hope we'll do next week is to, is to take that idea up and to see maybe why this policy came through erm and we'll look at the, like the arithmetic of that as to, as to how much money there was, how much land there was in fact.
mm.
how you could actually achieve a distribution.
so i think for next week i'd like to be looking in some detail, there are two sources on this one is, is and the other is ,tho those two are crucial in terms of understanding or, and and that those are crucial in terms of understanding erm why this policy document .
er who's doing next week?
if, if you're stuck for them come and see me cos i've got them 
right mrs do have a seat.
what can i do for you?
it's the eczema again.
oh.
actually it started getting a bit better from when i telephoned.
ah good.
what are you taking at the moment?
are we putting anything much on?
erm i use the dipabase and the erm
betnovates 
betnovates 
ointment i think.
mm.
it was back in february i saw you isn't it?
let's have a look.
and it really is very localized but that is quite angry, it's bubbly too and spreading, little finger.
but these two are fine.
mm.
mm.
hmm.
this bubbly area.
you say that's .
mm.
yeah.
right are you still using betnovates and 
mm.
dipabase and 
yeah.
it's flared up despite that?
yeah.
right,.
okey-doke.
hmm.
it's, it's a bit cracked .
it makes it very 
as i say it's better than, it's a bit better than it was.
but it's still not that 
no.
good is it?
no.
no.
right, what we need to do is to hit it fairly hard and try to get it damped down as quickly as we possibly can.
now don't get rid of the betnovate have you still got some left?
mm.
okay.
because as soon as it starts to die down you could probably go back on to betnovate to keep it maintained.
and you may actually have to use betnovate on a preventative basis every now and again.
even if there's not a deal there, as soon as it starts it's slightly flaky straight in.
but what i'm gonna do is give you erm dermavate dermavate is actually more potent than betnovate in the ointment form again to get the rapid penetration.
and once again, like betnovate it's used twice a day.
and in a similar fashion you should use the dipabase to keep the skin as soft and moist as you can
mhm.
rather than letting it get dried out and cracked.
dermavate is, as i say, it's more potent, it's probably not so suitable for keeping going with, but for jumping on top of things in a hurry, it's fine.
and i think that's what we ought to use.
sometimes you actually need to use it under something, but it's difficult to use under things and part of the hand.
i don't know what you mean under 
well sort of under a dressing, or
oh right.
under a bit of polythene, so it, it actually gets absorbed even quicker.
mm.
but er i don't think we need to go to that er length with you.
i've still got those erm, you know, the little purple tablets?
yeah.
that dissolve in water,
yeah, to soak them.
mm.
you could, you could go back on the permitabs if you want.
it's not desperately moist, although certainly one of them is cracking quite a bit, and if that helps to dry it up and make it more comfortable then it's worth giving them a soak ten minutes a day.
mm.
if you want to try those, you dissolve one in four litres of water which is er which is a little, just short 
just short of a gallo yeah you need a bowl.
yeah, but then you get the right concentration.
if you use too high a concentration, it irritates and it stains even more than the dilute stuff does.
but that may be worth a go if you've got some permitabs left.
mm.
but i think we'll use some dermavate have you got plenty of dipabase 
yeah.
good.
a big tub, yeah?
mm.
that's fine.
is it alright to put that on, you know, when it's broken?
the skin 
yes, you've got, you've got to be a bit careful with broken skin because if you put things directly on it, they tend to irritate.
it won't do the skin any harm particularly, but it can smart.
and 
mhm.
that might be one good reason for using the er the soaks.
the other think i'd recommend, is, using a fine pair scissors, is take off the scaly bits, the bits that stick out, cos they're the bits that catch
mm.
and hurt and 
yeah.
poor sod.
well between gemma and the dog you don't stand much chance do you?
said he was gonna bring some biscuits up the street cos i still haven't got any.
well i've gotta go down the street, i'll bring some biscuits back.
i was just telling marje 
oh it's not it's just and i'll walk down and er i will bring him some biscuits back 
oh he heard you, on tape.
don't bring the best chocolate ones,
well i didn't start getting any dinner cos jenny's just on about getting fish and chips.
yeah we we're gonna get some fish and chips
it's a belgian drink.
oh yeah?
oh?
when you pour it out it looks like ginger beer.
does it?
yeah.
you don't, you don't even feel .
twelve percent.
is it really?
yeah.
as i say i, that's why, that's really why i was expecting you more towards twelve o'clock time.
so i said well if they're gonna get .
.
don't worry about it, we'll go down and get some later on.
with the car 
perhaps to that moor road 
yeah, we'll go up there.
that's strong.
yeah well it yeah it is a bit.
it is strong yeah.
it's nice stuff.
they said, they said it don't give you a hangover but don't believe it cos i had a you have a 
you s you serve it in a you know the big chunky glasses you can get?
well if you put them in the freezer
mm mm.
up, pour it straight in and down.
mm.
do you still drink like that brock?
like in budgens few weeks .
we'll get some of that when eileen and tony come.
went down yesterday and they're out of stock.
it's expensive over here though innit?
er i get it for three quid, three something like.
is that the the big bottle or the small one?
no, they're the small ones, small bottles yeah.
it's expensive that.
oh yeah i know,
we we'd pay about four pound for twenty four bottles.
this beer called
yeah.
it's, it's er belgian.
oh.
and it's it looks like ginger beer.
when you pour it out you get a big head on it like this and it's, it's lovely stuff.
it goes down like wine.
it's, it's smooth, real smooth.
yeah.
they have quite a few er foreign beers in er in budgens these days cos the other week we saw some of that brock 
oh yeah that's erm that's 
then when he went down he said well he couldn't see any yesterday.
no don't i don't i, i just get, i mean i, sometimes i have some like but it's so easy to get hold of it out there mum.
i mean we've always got drink in the house and s and occasionally we'll have a drink at night but sometimes we just don't touch it for ages unless anyone comes round.
it just sits there
well i mean your dad's got 
anyway, i'll be gone and i shan't be long.
give us a kiss 
see you in a bit.
eh, where's my purse?
dad will you bring me some cough medicine?
cough medicine?
i've got some.
have you?
oh that'll do then.
i'll have some later.
we've got some in the pantry.
but i can bring you some if you want some.
come and taste mine.
oh no, no.
when you've tasted mine you might not want, you might want me to bring you bring you back a different sort .
why, where do you get yours from?
from the doctor.
the vets.
no he 
look at these in bits.
eh?
are you going down the street now?
yeah.
well you want some money don't you?
this is, hang on this is a part of italy.
this is the time we went to the beach in italy.
i'll just look at these.
and the sun setting.
let me show you ones with tony and them on then.
it's a nice big beach isn't it?
is this down in the ?
is it tony?
er no 
no it's over towards naples.
oh i see.
this is tony's street.
you can't get two cars down the street.
can't you really?
could just get his car down it.
and they had to park it in a a , an alley on the side.
oh yeah?
it took me six turns to get it, get it reversed in.
because there's no room at all.
shall i show you a picture of tony?
these.
these pictures are all round tony's village.
yeah.
see what his village is like.
if dad starts looking through there he'll never get down the street .
well he he's gonna look at the rest when he comes back.
see them when you come back.
right-oh 
well he won't be long unless he sees anybody to talk to.
he's like you for that.
er did you want anything else?
no thanks dad.
i can't think of anything.
i can't think of anything except for the biscuits because i've run out of biscuits.
i was eileen.
i know what you want.
no no i'm no i'm i'll just get some cough medicine.
me money's around though, i don't know where it is.
no i'll bring you some back.
it's in your bag.
your bag's over there.
oh, alright.
any s something, chesty stuff, you know?
well that's what mine is for.
taste it first.
i'll have some of yours then.
no, go and taste it first.
and then you'll know whether you like it.
that's it, he's settled down now.
here you are.
there.
lay down.
that's it.
do you want another cup of tea tony?
there's probably 
no thanks.
another one in the pot if you want one.
no.
it's on the adriatic?
erm the other side.
the other side is it?
it's the western coast.
oh the west.
it tastes like liquid salt!
ugh no wonder he said
you what?
it tastes like liquid salt.
i know your dad said he didn't like it.
that's why i didn't say anything before you tried it but your dad said he didn't like it.
it acts as a mouthwash as well.
is there any particular kind you do like?
erm i don't care as long as it ain't that.
i'll have any sort but that.
right.
this is all rou this his village.
you know he's surrounded by all these mountains.
ooh.
right?
this is his back garden.
that's the house, that's his back garden.
part of it.
that's looking out of erm 
big garden.
that's looking out the front window
oh yeah.
over the rooftops next door.
i mean you know, sometimes you you see a picture of a place when you've been there and it doesn't even resemble it.
you know, as it is now it's very lovely.
over the road i mean.
yeah.
they're practically touching actually if, if they, if they had a balcony and tony had a balcony you could shake hands 
oh.
yeah .
that's opposite tony's front window
it looks nice.
it looks nice 
where he a man's growing his tobacco look.
well
tobacco?
growing his tobacco.
yeah.
ooh.
and that one's same as the other one.
that's the other one like that.
we've got loads the same.
i think you usually tend to get
yeah.
when we, we come back from holiday 
that's 
your dad usually finds he's taken the same picture two or three times or more or less and
keep them in the same bits won't you?
yes 
same place but a different angle.
this is
this is all out of his back window the views out of upstairs, out of his kitchen window.
all these.
that's the photos i took of it, yeah at the palace.
it's only like a little village isn't it?
it's not a, not a big town.
oh it's, well it's three little villages together.
see there's no difference really from the postcards.
erm there's erm
mm.
yeah, oh yeah.
it's boiling there though.
they're walking round in er woolly jumpers.
were they really?
it's about twenty four degrees.
i was sweltering, i was wearing a t-shirt and they were out you know with jumpers on and all sorts.
they wear pyjamas at night and all sorts they do.
there's carbi resorta and his village itself is called viapechio something like that.
i can't really say it.
no.
.
that's their dog, sally.
now this is where you can see this is 
their step's there
yeah.
well you know you look down into that, onto that flat, the one ?
yeah.
well there's another one over this side.
that bit there is the under part to tony's house where the cousin lives.
oh.
no, hang on what is she?
sister.
she's she's maria's sister, maria's his ?
no, it's philomena's sister.
philomena's sister lives there.
that's a big plant isn't it?
crikey it's as tall as you.
yeah it's elephant ears or something isn't it?
elephant ears.
love that.
now these
if you've got good eyes you might 
there's one of them.
oh yeah?
oh yeah.
all these things on the wall you can't touch it.
this is tony with his camera.
if you touch it it rots.
does it?
yeah.
it hasn't been touched for hundreds of years.
this is what i think is fascinating.
this place here.
are these all lizards?
there's lizards on all of them.
here, that one?
yeah.
there's lizards on all of them.
they get in your bed don't they?
ooh.
never got one in mine.
lizards 
when we went down the south of france we saw lizards like that on the walls.
they moved ever so quick 
yeah these do.
yeah.
this is tony's cellar.
oh.
no it's, it's literally chopped out of rock.
you can see all the steps are all 
yeah.
stone.
it's all chopped it's like a cave.
you go down and then you walk along here, right to the end right round, sort of round the bend there
yeah.
and there's a well.
he's got a well.
and this is really deep ain't it tone, this bit?
that's about forty foot down 
this is about forty foot down and then it drops again
oh.
into a well, where he gets his all, his fresh water from it.
there's a li he puts a light on and it lights it up down the , a long way down.
but it never ever alters.
you can draw water out, you can put water in, and the level never ever changes.
wonderful water.
it's really nice, ain't it tone?
yeah.
it's the only trouble though, they haven't got any mains water.
oh i see.
yeah.
these are the same again.
these are over the rooftops.
and anything that does come from the you know the system?
mm.
erm it's bad.
you know, it's really dirty water.
lovely little villages though.
i mean you can see how they live, i mean look at the roads.
ever such a job to get our car up there.
that's philomena walking up the street.
oh.
she's saying no don't-a take-a one of me.
switch-a the camera off!
photos 
yeah.
. oh these are the actual 
you walk down the road erm marje it's really funny.
and it's hey mario
ciao.
ciao mario cappuccino?
and off they go.
it's really funny.
i'd love to live there.
yeah.
it sounds really nice.
fantastic.
hughie come here.
oh that's next door's dog.
can't remember 
come and see me.
what it's called.
but it ain't very nice.
that's next door's dog.
these are all grapevines 
she's got grapes lemons she's got a tree that's got lemon, orange and grapefruit on it ain't she tone?
yeah.
growing in the garden?
yeah.
all on one tree.
on one tree?
lemon and a 
yeah on one tree.
they were all grafted on and they're all growing on the same tree.
derek's got an apple tree with different kinds growing on it.
derek's got an apple tree with three different varieties on it.
marvellous innit?
that's clever.
that's that's sunset.
yeah i might have guessed that.
yeah.
out of his kitchen window.
looks like a castle dunnit?
but it ain't.
it does.
and that's a shot see this part under here is maria's under part where the cellar cellar goes down no and yeah, that's no.
this is where the cellar is.
you go round through maria's gate then you go down the back and behind that little pole there
yeah.
and down under here.
that's where the cellar is isn't it?
oh.
and these are the steps.
go up there, up to their stairs, that's her kitchen window and there's a lo big sun lounge there that goes right along there and right along here.
their bedroom doors used to open up onto this balcony.
you could come out in the morning 
oh.
that's a nicer one of the garden.
this is the that's the lemon, orange and grapefruit tree there.
oh yeah?
the grapes are all along here see behind the washing?
yeah.
and she's got kiwi fruits and peppers and all sorts of things growing in the garden.
there's eleanor.
to grow them.
climate for it 
do you remember eleanor?
she was a little dark-haired, curly girl.
beautiful curly dark hair she had.
she was a little tiny dot.
aubergines. little aubergines, they're like this.
you know, they're the little ones she says.
all fresh, picks them when she wants them.
they're all at er monte casino .
there was a big battle there.
the er the germans bombed the monastery.
oh yeah?
and er the italian government rebuilt it.
oh yeah?
but the view cos you, you're going up seven miles
mm.
all, all the roads round, yeah?seven miles innit?
it is.
it's se seven miles of road up to the top.
yeah.
and the view is lovely.
the actual cellars they've got some of the old er writings that the, the monks and you're not allowed to take photographs.
yeah?
and there's a book and it's oh about quarter of and it's got the bible written in fourteen nineties.
and it, it's there, you can see it.
you can see the writing on the pages.
you know, it's fantastic.
yeah.
no i can't say i remember her.
the only one i remember is the son, the oldest boy i think.
oh dear, he wears me out steven.
steven!
oh god.
and she she's, she talks more than me, and sh her voice is like 
that's saying something.
grapes, look at them.
yeah.
grapevines.
you can see there's grapes on there.
derek's got a grapevine as well.
had forty pound of grapes off it last year.
did they?
yeah .
these are all rou you see they're all these are all round that area.
what about hotel rodeo 
yeah.
and that's all these are in tony's hou i'm just trying to show them tony's house first you see cos it's it's all these tiles that fascinate me.
some of these look more or less the same don't they?
yeah they are.
we took them look at the
yeah we used seven films.
what's that, chickens or ducks?
dunno.
they keep everything round there.
you look out one window you see a chicken, look out another window you see pigs.
another way you see goats.
yeah.
they come round in the morning
marjie ain't had a goat yet .
no.
you, you'd love it.
you'd be in your element you would.
these tiles are all throughout.
amazing aren't they?
oh they're wonderful.
all you do is, you get a mop and you just swish it over and you get a dry mop and just polish it up.
no polish or anything.
and they shi lovely aren't they tone?
yeah.
great big tall ceilings.
that's tony.
don't know quite what he's doing, pulling a funny face as usual.
and that's me trying to learn me italian.
she's telling me these little bits to write down.
oh this is me, me and philomena.
me this is me and philomena.
i'm right into the italian soaps while i were over there.
the what?
oh christ yes.
the italian soaps, couldn't understand a word, they were ever so good.
they're argen they're argentinean which are dubbed into italian.
oh.
well 
oh dear me.
it starts at quarter to eight, goes off at ten.
it's 
what was you supposed to be doing there then ?
they're watching t oh i, i was messing about with tony so i, i flashed me skirt, flashed me knees.
oh this is alexandro's birthday.
alexandro he lives next door, right?
and he's living in his garage mum.
this is going down, round the back 
ooh er.
why?
he's got loads of money.
absolutely loaded isn't he tone?
who alexandro?
alexandro.
oh yeah.
and he lives in this garage because out there you get earthquakes, and when you get earthquake damage to your house the government will fix it.
they say yes you're allowed so much money to have your house fixed and they fix it.
but they only come when they're ready.
and he's, he took all his stuff out because he thought er they said they were coming.
then they never turned up so now he's got his cooker and his sink, goodness knows what in his, in his garage.
ooh.
and that's their next door neighbour?
yeah.
yeah.
ever so nice.
can't speak any english though, it's ever so funny.
you just get in, have your tea, and alexandro'll come round, come for a beer.
there's tony look.
he ain't got no teeth now look.
yeah.
you can't just have one.
no, no, no .
no, i didn't recognize him.
oh, you know when you've just had your tea, you like to sit down?
i never recognized him.
he ain't got no teeth.
yeah.
no,
he's been ever so ill mum.
really ill.
yeah you said he had.
he's lucky he never died.
i tell you.
are they war graves tony?
yeah, yeah.
yeah in monte casino it's erm there's the english, polish erm ooh and french cemeteries.
there isn't a german one.
no.
no.
no.
now what's funny about this place is they're all italians that are in there but there's loads of them that live in this particular area, that lived in bedford for a long time.
so they all speak english.
in bedford i know.
so there is 
well all these lived in bedford for a while.
she speaks with a bedford accent.
ooh er.
ever so funny.
jean, was her name?
zina zita?
what was her name?
zelda, zina?
veena.
veena?
yeah.
nice girl she was.
no i remember derek saying how many italians there were living in bedford.
this is the hotel rodeo at garoteo where we stayed, where we rosetto where we stayed on our way down towards tony's.
oh.
oh mum it was terrible!
no, the place was okay but we had lizards outside our door, loads of them.
i it were ca , it was, it was raining so much you see?
there's more of s sally hiding behind the curtain.
monte casino where we went straight into the pub and tony says three beer and hallo he said, alright mate?
yeah really.
he said do you work?
he says now and again.
if he doesn't wanna go to work he doesn't.
no.
that's good 
they keep the nets down to keep the flies out.
yeah.
that was a hell of a trip, down through italy.
another one of sally behind the curtain.
me and philomena doing the potatoes.
it rained for three days.
oh gawd!
i like those shiny floors.
lovely ain't they?
bit easier than hoovering carpets isn't it?
this is guido.
now he's learning to speak english.
he's a 
who's he?
he's a man who lives 
is he a neighbour?
down the road.
you'll see his family in a minute, hang on 
tony's friend.
he's tony's friend.
yeah we got in to er roseo and .
and er i heard this clanging.
and i thought .
you know, we were going for about ten minute .
so i looked out the window and i see and they've all got these big bells round their neck.
yeah?
string like, you know?
oh.
he's my friend as well now .
some of these photos are terrible.
that's his family.
that's his mum and his grandma and granddad and his dad and his brother and his brother's wife.
mm.
i've got some nice photos.
i sent them one, they're ever so pleased.
they were all dressed up.
you know not, not just a cowboy belt.
they've all got flowers in the hair and all sorts.
yeah?
that's me and maria doing the potatoes.
yeah.
that's 
yeah that's my mate, yeah.
me and me and erm sorry not maria, there's maria.
that's me and philomena.
philomen 
phil, yeah.
philomen.
she used to come in, she'd say antonio!
then tony'd say bella !
he used to talk to her in english with an italian accent.
it used to crack me up.
and she, and she used to 
you doing potatoes by the bucketful?
well there was a lot of us for dinner.
they don't half eat though!
good grief.
i mean, you got dinnertimes it was erm typical pasta with her home-made, home-made spaghetti sauce and parmesan cheese, great big plateful and loads of meat on the side.
and then at night egg and chips, cos she knows tony likes chips or chops and ooh.
said didn't i, i'm gonna put loads of weight on?
ha!
ate loads.
that's a that's a fresh fig off a tree.
you can walk the roads and pick them.
ooh i've been told they're very nice.
i've never tasted one but they say they're very nice.
ooh.
they taste so different to the figs we get.
yeah.
they're really nice.
oh this is the night we arrived.
things like that 
like the cheese.
this is the night we arrived, we were looking at photos look.
oh yeah.
she brought this hunk of erm what is it 
how far is it?
parmesan isn't it?
parmesan yeah.
oh a hunk like this.
how many miles actually is it tony?
where, down there?
from france to italy.
how many did we do?
oh dunno.
or germany to 
two thousand something?
i did two thousand four hundred kilometres.
it was ooh it was, do you know, it's one of the best trips i've ever made.
yeah it's 
i've never been anywhere like that, to drive through.
the, the travelling you know?
we did fifty what was it?
fifty three tunnels?
ooh, look at me there look.
i think i'd had a few, few home-made wines.
look at this home-made wine.
look what they've got here, the bottles 
think it was fi eileen, how many tunnels was it ?
fifty odd wasn't it?
er tunnel no it was se fif 
seven 
fifty something going down, seventy something coming back i think.
that's right.
oh you, cos they just dig through the mountains you see, so you don't have to 
the, the longest the longest tunnel is er nineteen kilometres.
ooh, some tunnel that is.
yeah, what was it called though?
it was gotard 
s s 
it was gotard weren't it.
no.
no, the other one's bigger innit?
no,gotard 
gotard 
yeah.
you've certainly got a lot of photos anyway.
oh we took them all the while see.
see they're the only teeth tony's got left.
them ones there, that's all he's got left.
he ain't got no more.
and do you know what?
because he ain't got no teeth mum, you know they 
well i, i can see it's him when they're 
yeah.
a bit closer up but 
you know when you ain't got your teeth in, how your face tends to s sag a bit?
yeah.
well you see, tony's got them here but he ain't got them there so he's, when he sits there and he's relaxed his face goes 
sad .
he got sad old tone though.
every time i write a letter to him now i say keep smiling, turn them corners up cos they all go on at him.
oh there's them cows.
yeah.
oh there's sally playing peep-o again.
there were loads of them.
that's one of the houses in the village look.
what does he do?
he's 
tony?
well he works in a 
jack of all trades.
oh.
he does a bit of everything.
he works in this company where they're something to do with material isn't it?
he's a labourer.
he's a labourer, but then he goes out sweeping chimneys.
oh.
these are the ones i like.
that's a nice looking house isn't it?
mm.
bit unusual.
yeah there's loads of nice little houses round there's another one round here with pictures on the walls somewhere.
i see cow's got the right of way.
it's the streets i like.
look at the streets.
oh dear .
see this is tony's street.
ha tony's street!
lane.
see look at tony's.
we had ever such a job to get our car up there.
got a better 
that's the same one as this one on here ?
and this one.
that's tony's street.
is that luxembourg?
look at that one.
ooh er, crikey.
that's 
yeah, oh he's .
no lie down.
that's it,lie down.
here look at this house mum.
good boy.
look at this house.
luxembourg there.
oh that's nice isn't it?
yeah.
is that in the same village?
yeah.
you can go the coach route can't you?
we wondered round the streets just taking photos.
you can go the coach route can't you?
yeah well we was, we was gonna go down the west coast go and see rome and then down from there.
yeah.
but the weather was terrible.
i was driving through what, eighteen inches of water.
yeah when you go through switzerland.
yeah.
it seems to be following you.
yeah well switzerland weren't too bad cos the road surfaces are pretty good.
yeah.
but in italy there's no drainage.
ooh.
but on, on a motorway brand new motorway, no lines
yeah.
no white lines, nothing.
no?
about eighteen inches of water.
right?
cor!
and the cars are just straight on.
you know,
went round taking photos of old and the new.
see this is the new stuff that's going up.
yeah.
and the old stuff is much more interesting, don't like the new stuff.
yeah.
this is a a rest home for the nuns.
and they go there when they retire.
see that's that's sort of there.
that was built sort of there.
that's the old stuff.
yeah.
and this is the new.
there's timesharing and 
different 
and this one
it was bloody we well i had to stop because i couldn't see my way at all.
this one's another one.
that's in the next village.
it's a nice street innit?
it is nice.
yeah.
and that's, that's the fish in the palace park.
and that's switzerland, coming out of switzerland.
and the other one is what's on the front ?
that's monte casino 
very nice.
and that was monte casino on that one.
that's a nice box for photographs innit?
oh this one ain't much good actually.
this one ain't much good.
it's a nuisance.
the other one's absolutely chock-a-block.
i'm keeping them together in their little bits because i've got them all sorted where they belong, so 
have you seen these?
no.
this is all, they're all the little houses and and streets and and that, that one.
right, what's the next lot?
alright, sit down you.
sit down joey.
good boy.
right now did you see the one with the sea on?
oh no.
well that's the day we went to the sea.
when weirdo bought us a coffee.
which sea's that?
it's the mediterranean innit?
i don't know, it's on the left hand side.
or is it the north sea?
naples side.
oh.
i think it's the mediterranean.
did you see naples?
no we never went 
no.
even the locals won't go and park their car in 
right, philomena's two brothers, both policemen in naples 
they're policemen.
i kn know the traffic's er terrible.
and they don't even in, in the city.
well they, they'll pinch them.
oh is it that bad?
yeah it is, it's sad.
oh it's terrible!
yeah.
yeah.
the sea looks nice though.
the cars get ripped off, if they park they'll take the car.
will they?
yeah.
yeah.
i, i waited until i got back into switzerland before i said i've been to italy and i haven't got a scratch on the car.
oh it's lovely but see now this is, when was this?
oct early october?
early october and it were end of season.
mm.
wouldn't believe it would you?
no.
and they just shut up and go.
yeah.
yeah cos, cos 
e everywhere you go they're using the horn.
yeah.
now it's against the law to that in germany.
yeah.
so i couldn't really get into the habit.
no.
you know?
no that's true, yeah.
i'm gonna sneeze in a minute.
i can feel it coming.
how far is the village from the sea?
twenty five k's.
i think if you know where you're going it's nearer than we went.
we do weren't too sure were we?
was that was that hot air balloon following you by any chance ?
it, it just came over, yeah it, it came up over the 
it looks nice dunnit, that?
we were just standing there looking over the the the 
that's er 
the parapet
yeah.
and i turned round 
there.
and this balloon came up from behind 
this is all palace.
in the gardens and inside the palace.
the cacerta 
yeah that's in that first photo innit?
yeah.
and i thought well i'll get that balloon and perhaps
yeah.
yeah.
that's the gardens where all the fish, there's fish in all these steps.
oh.
you'll see some of the fish.
where's that?
this is cacerta 
cacerta i heard the name but 
oh it's, it's there on the side of the box.
sorry?
yeah i've shown them that, yeah.
but there's some more as well in there.
you need a, a you need to see it though really.
you can't get it it's such a sort of panoramic sort of view, you know?
all this is all in erm alabaster.
ooh it's lovely.
mm.
fishes.
there's loads of them.
yeah, every step in like in that house 
every step has got fish in.
is water.
and they've all got fish.
in the steps?
well there's steps.
you go up on a step and then you've got another pond.
yeah.
yeah.
and it overflows coming down into another pond 
there's a massive garden.
oh i see.
and they've all got fish in.
what, koi carp and all that are they tony?
all sorts.
yeah.
there's all sorts.
yeah.
i think they're goldfish actually.
there's some goldfish but 
these look like goldfish.
carp and, it's got everything in there.
i don't think there's any koi carp.
look at it, there's millions on that one.
yeah that's lovely innit?
cle and yet you look at the water.
it don't look very clear when you look at it, but the sun and that it was it weren't half hot that day.
well the camera can probably see more than you do.
there's statues everywhere.
i was just testing the camera so
i, i, i ordered a camera and expected it to be with us the week before we went.
we were gonna leave on the saturday morning, it arrived the friday night.
did it really?
yeah.
oh, it didn't give you much chance then to get used to it did it?
i mean you know 
no.
i just, i just got seven films and i said well if they friday if i don't, well 
well they worked good didn't they?
there's some that are a bit, you know 
no, they're, they're alright.
they're nice.
they're good photos they are.
this reminds me of when we went round versailles.
that's all painted ceilings and 
yeah.
this is like in a big glass case and it's other parts , there's like a little bit there looks like the nativity and then the rest is all parts of naples in olden times.
it shows you the
ooh.
the .
and you walk round this glass case, it's all different 
but the curtains, it says please don't touch, if you touch them they'd fall to bits, they're that old.
yeah.
oh yeah, tony was saying.
they're hundreds of years old aren't they?
yeah.
and look this, this room, you've got the it was all like this, all gold filigree, it was all over.
yeah.
the ceilings, all down the walls furniture.
ooh it was 
it was it was the er the throne room wasn't it?
throne room, yeah.
it was wonderful.
mm.
and that's
er this sort of thing, as i say i it reminds me very much of versailles when we went round there.
yeah.
that's all painted ceilings and 
how far's tony actually from naples?
it's about sixty kilometres.
sixty is it?
yeah.
but, cos you see tony, he, he likes to take people out
mm?
and h he's been to places his memory's terrible.
is it really?
yeah.
oh yeah.
yeah.
he 
he has been ever so poorly clive.
he, he you see what 
i, yeah cos last time you when come over he was supposed to have been ill weren't he?
oh yeah.
yeah oh he's er what happened to him, right he used to like a drink when he were here.
he went out there and you see and, and they drink wine instead of tea.
yeah, yeah.
yeah.
and he was going round and they made such a fuss of him cos he was philomena's husband 
is that a waterfall at the back there?
yeah.
yeah.
it comes all the way down.
did you see that first one, where they're?
yeah?
you'll see it quite a way up.
you'll see it in a minute when you get back to the end again.
you see it's not, not alcoholic the wine.
no.
and when it's pressed out of the grapes, the juice comes out, they allow it to stand for five days and then they put it into bottles.
oh, i see.
there's no alcohol in it.
isn't there?
no sugar, nothing added.
no.
no it's just pure grape juice.
oh god, really kicks you.
yeah.
it kicks.
does it 
yeah.
well, see when you're drinking that all day long
yeah yeah.
it rotted his liver.
yeah, yeah.
and that's 
oh.
so w without alcohol there wouldn't be no dehydration either would there?
not in 
no 
no, no.
no i should think it's it's very potent.
even the, the locals add water to it.
do they really?
you know they get a small glass like a whisky glass?
mm.
half of the wine and they top it up with water.
oh.
and, and th this erm it's like the coffee.
italian coffee in little cups.
more than four a day if you're a working man.
if you don't work, one a day.
yeah?
because it, it it would rot your stomach.
ooh dear.
stuff 
ooh ooh.
i didn't think it were that strong like, you know?
i thought they drunk that all day,
i brought some back with us.
yeah.
and i've still got half a pack.
have you really?
yeah.
it was only two hundred and fifty grams.
yeah we've got half.
oh yeah.
it is strong.
really strong.
these statues are everywhere aren't they?
see there it is.
look it comes 
yeah.
right down.
all the way down.
there's tony, me and maria.
who's maria?
maria's erm philomen's sister.
oh.
that's across the gardens of the palace you know?
yeah.
all the mountains all round it.
that's what i like about it, all the mountains all over the place, you know?
yeah.
back to the beginning again.
yes they're lovely.
and the weather was gorgeous.
well we did have some rain but 
well for that time of the year it was remarkable really.
er .
oh that's at rocetta .
you can see rocetta from tony's garden.
it's a little, it's a place.
it's, it's a hill, a big and this is where hannibal started his trek
oh.
with the elephants, across the alps.
rocetta was his first campsite.
oh.
you see?
that's why it's famous.
did you hear that clive?
sorry?
rocetta the ones that mum's looking at now
yes?
what i'll do, i'll pass you the box and then you can take them out a bit at a time cos i've sorted them.
ain't they?
oh.
your dad'll wanna look through them i expect when he gets back.
that's where hannibal parked his ele had his first campsite.
oh 
oh.
that's a true story then, hannibal?
oh yeah.
i didn't er realize that actually, yeah.
well where, where tony lives there's that village is over three thousand years old.
there's tunnels under the ground.
yeah.
tunnels 
well you know the what was it, romulus and remus?
yeah.
with the wolf.
what's that then, hidden in the trees?
mm?
erm 
well apparently there's a, a golden wolf 
that's the cemetery.
oh.
buried in one of the caves.
i'm not too certain which cemetery but it's 
and nobody's ever found it.
oh.
it's an important one.
but it's, apparently it's supposed to be there.
it's it's supposed to be there.
but every day they're finding something new.
are they?
yeah.
hills all round innit?
are there still
oh yeah they're still excavating it, yes.
archaeologists are still there doing it all you know?
yeah.
oh aye yeah.
oh.
well the things they find, you know 
i'll bet it is.
oh as i say i've seen the film.
i, i liked the film of hannibal, with oliver reed.
now that's quite good.
yeah.
was it 
i've never seen the film.
it's very good, the film is.
but i mean round there it's absolutely steeped in history.
i couldn't believe it.
mm.
i mean er when they told the tales of the of the seven winds and the was it seven winds?
yeah.
the seven winds and romu romulus and remus and the, the, the wolf it all happened round there.
and they reckon the golden wolf is still down 
but 
there somewhere.
rome is supposed to be built on seven hills isn't it or something?
it is.
yeah, seven hills.
yeah we saw the seven hills as we drove past rome because you 
yeah 
can see it.
just like this can't you?
yeah.
amazing place.
we didn't go into rome, we went round it.
it spreads about twenty five mile 
for the time of the year it's gorgeous isn't it?
yeah look at the size of me though mum.
i ain't half a fatso.
and that's the main town the city.
yeah.
ooh i put loads of weight on out there.
and then you've got all the outskirts around that, you know?
cos you're talking about thirty, forty mile.
i'm supposed to be trying to watch me weight now.
yeah?
yeah.
it's massive.
i've er, i've lost about a stone in a couple of months or so, that's all, but it's er better than gaining i suppose.
back to where i started i think.
unless you've got two pictures of that same street, no 
no, you're back to where you started.
this is
rocetta clive.
mm.
funny little place.
ah.
right rocetta now where's this?
oh this is the palace this is the, the monte casino this is where 
it's the abbey 
the abbey at monte casino do you remember
oh i've heard about the abbey yeah.
the war film.
you know where it all got bombed
yeah.
and what they took all the treasures down into the cellars so they were saved and they rebuilt it.
in the same style as it was years ago, using some of their old bricks and everything that they could but it's been 
yeah.
rebuilt in the same style and all the treasures are still there.
yeah it's amazing, all these 
i've seen the film of this where they're trying to g and all around from outside you can see the graves the graveyard.
yeah.
there's the german graveyard, the italian the, the erm british and canadian 
no, the german one's not there.
the german one is not round monte casino 
i thought it was.
it's further out.
w way out.
and it's only a small one.
oh i thought it was.
i want a tissue.
handbag.
can you pass me my handbag, marje please.
oh dear me.
derek said he might come up tonight.
yeah we saw jenny down town yesterday, she said they were coming up tonight.
ooh, can't stand this.
how, how high up were you there tone?
could you also for your passports just note the following information.
country of issue, whether it's a five or ten year passport expiry date and your passport numbers.
again we can, we use that information when we go through various customs and border points.
if if we can give the lists in it just makes it easier.
so if i could ask you just to complete that.
forms?
yes
er there's some more over here, they're on their way round.
right, has everybody got one now?
are there any spare green forms anywhere?
here.
thank you.
can you, if you can let, simply let me have those in at the end of the session or if you can give them to eleanor at the end of the session.
right.
okay wh what er i'll give you time to fill that in at the end.
erm what we're gonna do for the second part of the morning is to look, if you like at the tourism application for the determinants of demand.
i'm gonna start by going back to that graph we looked at first thing this morning which is trying to explain what had been happening to the pattern of tourism, both visitors to this country and visitors moving away from this country in the period nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty two.
and if you wanna look at this graph the period we're talking about is indicated with these dotted lines and you can see the green line here representing u k residents holidaying abroad.
you've got a very sharp increase and then after nineteen eighty two it stabilizes a little bit.
er it moves up again in eighty five to eighty six and the general trend you can see is still upwards though it's certainly not repeating the growth in this period.
at the same time, you can see the domestic holidays the pattern's less clear, but certainly there doesn't appear to have been any growth.
now what i want to do is look at what was happening at that time and then try and explain using the determinants of demand what the patterns actually were.
and so if we look at what happened generally between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen eighty two the general picture is that the number of total holidays taken actually fell by three percent.
and the number of u k holidays taken, domestic holidays in this country, that figure fell by seventeen percent and yet we can see here that holidays actually taken abroad by u k residents rose a staggering fifty seven percent over the four year period.
so clearly in this period the u k holidaymaker moved from being someone who primarily took their holidays in the u k very definitely into someone who was now taking their holidays abroad.
now furthermore, if we look at what was happening to the population itself, remember that under the economic basis of looking at determinants of demand, we saw that income was a crucial factor.
and so if we look at what was happening to income at that time, we find that the disposable income, meaning the amount of money we have to spend on other things after we've bought essentials, that figure rose by only one and a half percent throughout this period.
however, holiday expenditure rose by twenty four percent and spending on overseas trips rose by fifty percent.
so quite clearly we were experiencing a major change in tourism patterns in this country.
now the other thing we should remember is that between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen eighty two, certainly in the early nineteen eighties, eighty, eighty one, we were in the midst of a recession and so that should tell us that really people should have less money to spend on holidays.
at the same time, we know that unemployment in this period was rising rapidly.
and so if people had less money in their pockets and they were losing their jobs, what factors can explain why more and more people were actually going on holiday abroad?
it doesn't, if you like, make sense and the key year, as i say, is nineteen seventy eight because that was the first time that spending on overseas holidays exceeded the spending on u k holidays.
so from nineteen seventy seven, seventy eight the u k holidaymaker now became an overseas holidaymaker in the main.
and we can conclude that some form of revolution had taken place in overseas holiday participation despite the high unemployment and the recession.
what we're gonna try and answer now is the reasons why this happened.
because on the basis of the economic models and the way which we look at determinants of demand in economics, this shouldn't have happened, we should have had the reverse, we should have had fewer holidays being taken and certainly fewer overseas holidays.
can anybody s like to suggest what reasons could possibly explain why so many overseas holidays were being taken?
or where the money was coming from to actually pay for these holidays.
is it to do with the package industry revolution?
right.
er certainly within package holiday companies itself, competition was intense during this period and price being the major factor in determinants of demand, all the tour operators try to keep price down to a minimum and over this period you would find the average price for a package holiday would barely have changed one year to the next.
in fact if you look at the average price of a package holiday since nineteen seventy eight, the increase in prices has been absolutely marginal.
certainly well below the rate of inflation.
an illustration if you like of how competitive the package holiday industry became.
so in fact prices were good.
where would people have got the money from?
any ideas?
okay people could well have been using savings.
redundancy.
right good.
it's thought that a lot of the spending money for these would have come from redundancy payments when people lost their jobs.
and that might seem a rather odd way to actually spend some of your redundancy money, but perhaps this leads us on to another area influencing the demand, and that's to do with, if you like, psychology.
er making yourself feel good even if it's only for a short time.
if you can imagine someone losing their job, the depression that actually causes, perhaps both within them and with their family, the idea of being able to take them away for a holiday to forget about things might be a good thing at the end of the day.
the other thing is that of course, going back to the competition with price, these holidays weren't that expensive.
we're not talking about vast sums of money necessarily here.
are there any other factors which can explain the taking of these holidays?
the rising cost of holidays in the u k.
er okay, it could be the rising cost of holidays in the u k.
possibly not so much the cost, what other factors in the list of, of determinants could come into play now?
weather.
right, climate is always a major consideration.
er in nineteen seventy six for example, we had the long hot summer as people call it.
i think we had something like eight and a half months without rain and there's the feeling, quite often, that when we get a good summer in this country, people assume that the next summer will be just as good.
and so you can imagine all the people in nineteen seventy six thinking well you know, there's definitely been a climatic change, we're gonna holiday in the u k in nineteen seventy seven.
nineteen seventy seven's summer was a total washout and that would tend to push people perhaps more towards guaranteed sunshine in the mediterranean.
so climate is a key factor.
anything else?
okay well let's look at some of the main possible reasons for this in more detail.
the reasons i'm gonna give you were supplied by a guy called tony .
tony is actually a consultant.
he used to be the marketing director of butlins and obviously these trends were important to him when he was at butlins because butlins was actually losing the market.
so the reasons why.
the first thing we can say is definitely the strength of the pound.
the pound sterling was very strong against the dollar and relatively strong against currencies like the deutschmark.
now bearing in mind what we were saying about exchange rates before the break, if the pound was strong that obviously implied that people wanted to buy sterling, but what goods did they want to buy off us?
what major good were we producing or did we start producing around nineteen seventy seven?
which brought a lot of money into the country.
one major good.
output.
okay it begins with o oil.
okay?
very good.
north sea oil.
north sea oil came on board and suddenly we had a product which people wanted to buy.
in order to buy the oil off us, they had to pay sterling and so hence the demand for sterling goes up and suddenly we were viewed as a very rich economy.
ironically the price of sterling went up so high that it made it very difficult for us to sell our other manufactured goods and many people are now of the belief that because of the north sea oil price rises, this had an adverse affect on our economy, making it more difficult for us to sell manufacturing goods because the pound was very strong against other currencies.
so the strength of the pound caused through north sea oil was a major factor.
it meant it, it was very cheap for us to go to places like florida for our holidays.
secondly, there was relatively low inflation abroad, certainly in the main holiday destinations in europe.
prices were not going up too fast and again this made it economical for us to visit.
there was also a decline in real air transport cost.
and by this we mean in terms of things like the cost of fuel, although it did go up again in nineteen seventy nine, but also with respect to new services being offered.
er laker with his skytrain, the people's express, we had a lot of new airline operations starting up which offered cheap seats so that the relative cost of flying was coming down.
and the net result of all of these things together is that it narrowed the cost value differentials between u k and overseas holidays.
overseas holidays now started to look cheaper than actually going abroad.
sorry, than actually holidaying in britain.
right, the second factor which tony outlined was what was happening in the population and again we've already talked about this.
basically there's a decline in the number of children during this period, people under the age of sixteen, by around about eleven percent.
at the same time, there was a growth in the age group between sixteen and twenty four of about seven percent.
and finally, again we've already talked about the elderly er age groups, there was a growth in the sixty plus age group of about five per cent.
sir is that children ?
yeah.
yeah sixteen, under sixteen, then sixteen to twenty four, and then sixty plus.
now in this particular period if you were looking at these figures just like this, what would be your automatic reaction in terms of the type of holidays we ought to be providing?
what sort of holidays should we now start providing during this period?
which age group?
right, sixteen to twenty four.
so can you think of any er brochures or any companies which were around at that time to take advantage?
probably the most famous one
right, club eighteen to thirty.
okay so club eighteen to thirty was doing good business around this period because of this situation.
now what we have to do however is look at it in more in more detail than just simply the age of people.
we're also gonna look at where they live, remember what they're income is etcetera and the important thing is because of these increases here and because of the recession in general, it dictated to us that there were gonna be more one and two person households.
households without children in other words.
and this implies greater mobility both physically and financially.
if you picture a, for example, a typical couple perhaps living in london, erm the price of property is such that you maybe start with an apartment.
if you want to have children you've gotta offset that against, for example, having a car or a new stereo, things which affect your lifestyle.
so the pattern would have been perhaps towards marrying later, or certainly having children later and then perhaps moving out of london.
so this in a sense tends to reinforce the idea of these households with just one and two people living in them.
as the recession's gone on through the eighties and enters the nineties, we can see that the number of single households, households with just one person, is increasing rapidly.
it's a major market and the tourism industry has really been very slow to wake up to this factor.
because if you look in any package holiday brochure, you'll still see that, in order to get a room, you need two people.
if you, if any of you, you probably haven't, seen any brochures specifically geared towards single people.
very, very few.
and yet that's a major growing part of the market.
a third area will be social factors and here you've already mentioned the weather.
climate obviously is a major determinant of demand, attracting people to if you like the guaranteed sunshine.
ironically, now we're probably moving into a new era where sunshine is actually seen as something harmful giving things like skin cancer, er certainly in the australia market it's the case at the moment.
and so ironically, although climate will be a factor in er this century and into the next century, it could be well to escape the sun.
the direct reverse if you like of this period here.
the second factor is of is the whole question of holiday entitlements.
the number of weeks paid holiday that a worker will get is increasing rapidly so as today we have the norm of twenty days plus public bank holidays, giving more time if you like to engage in a package holiday abroad.
another social factor is the whole thing about foreign holidays being seen as somehow superior.
remember we keep talking about tourism as being fashionable, it's fashionable to say you've been to certain destinations.
saying you've been to those destinations in the u k doesn't actually hold the same appeal or esteem.
so the foreign holidays, because you're guaranteed sunshine, cheap alcohol, everything else, somehow being seen as better than the traditional british holiday.
at this time remember the traditional british holiday was seen as staying in a boarding house with a landlady.
you had to be in at a certain time you know, you had very standard cuisine, it was, it had become if you like, ridiculed in jokes and things of this nature.
and yeah another one connected to this whole lifestyle, aspirational argument the image the brochures give us of a couple si sitting on a terrace with, you know, you can almost hear the music in the background, the sun setting over the sea.
if you like, giving us the hollywood image that we can live that lifestyle for two weeks.
very difficult to imagine british resorts somehow trying to capture that.
i mean you simply can't, you can't guarantee the sunsets for one thing.
a fourth factor, education.
er around this period we have the widespread use of things like colour television which has now started to appear in everybody's homes and the beginnings of various holiday programmes.
so that again, once a week you have a visual image of what different resorts look like, but this time in colour.
and again we talked last week about the use of colour in photographs in brochures and things, if you like, to reinforce the sunshine element when you're sat in the snow in the winter watching wish you were here or one of the holiday programmes.
video is probably also an important factor.
a lot of travel companies starting to introduce video.
very commonplace today go in to thomas cook's there'll be a video running continually with one destination or another or an activity holiday etcetera.
and a fourth factor, third factor rather, school trips.
now again i mentioned this last week, the idea of introducing schoolchildren at a very young age to different countries and different cultures so that in fact when they come to go on holiday on their own or with a partner it holds no fear for them unlike, if you like, senior citizens might do.
and it's plain that this in fact is one of the major reasons explaining why more and more people are actually travelling overseas now.
the final thing is to do with marketing and here we've got, in particular, the convenience of the its, remember the inclusive tours.
you go to a travel agent, you pay a cheque and that will cover your accommodation, your meals, your transport, your insurance, it can even cover your entertainment.
very very easy to purchase.
if you contrast that with holidaying in britain, even today relatively few people will be a buy a package holiday in britain because somehow we think we can do it better ourselves.
we don't need to buy a package, we can simply lift up the telephone, book our own accommodation, use our own car.
and obviously that you can do, but it takes time, it's quicker just to walk into a travel agent and pick up a cheap bargain.
ease of purchase.
again the fact that you buy a single package very often when you go overseas.
the tour operators recognizing that people had different demands at this period, were developing specialist markets.
club eighteen thirty, activity based holidays, holidays to exotic destinations.
and with, these destinations, you can u use strong promotion.
if you go past any travel agent's window during the winter, look at what they've got on display.
invariably it will have palm trees and sunshine.
it has maximum impact when we're trudging through the snow and the rain.
and the final thing, a factor we've already mentioned, price competition.
now these are the reasons that, why tony claims the revolution would have taken place around this period.
and these are all re really valid but what i want to do now is start looking more into how a visitor actually thinks.
what influences them inside their heads to actually go for a certain destination.
and how do we actually use this in marketing.
now we started the morning by looking at the determinants of demand.
and what i want to do now is to look at two elements.
i'm gonna split the determinants into two.
on the one hand i'm gonna say you've got the enabling factors, these are things which enable you to actually participate in taking a holiday overseas.
and then here we've got the motivating factors.
if you like the psychological influences.
so we might in fact simplify this by saying these are the enabling factors if you like, to leave home these are the motivating factors pulling us to a certain destination.
and,go through the enabling factors first, they're very very straightforward, it's the motivating factors which are more complex.
so what are the things which enable you to leave home?
firstly if you've got a supply of holiday products on offer.
if you've got travel agents round every street corner then it's very easy simply to walk into them and buy a package on the spot.
you don't need, for example, months of preparation and planning in terms of perhaps where you're gonna go.
this is particularly true in recent years, because more and more people nowadays book holidays at the last minute.
very often it's to try and take advantage of price deals, but also it's because we now know there perhaps isn't the urgency to buy a holiday in february because we know there'll be plenty around still in june or july.
increasingly as well many people are making their own holiday arrangements.
er some of you i suspect are already into things like bucketshop flights.
how many how many people are aware of bucketshop flights?
tried it?
well not necessarily tried it but you're aware that they exist.
yes, well it's a few people.
these are very very cheap discounted tickets er usually using what we might call the dodgier carriers of the world, not necessarily those which have got a bad safety records or crash records, but where the cuisine isn't quite as good on board, or you don't get an inflight movie.
erm just to digress, you've got well known airlines er such as tarob of rumania where you can get cheap flights with them virtually anywhere except ironically to rumania
erm you've got other airlines erm such as erm er geruda of indonesia er imam of bangladesh, there's a whole sequence of them.
and if you wanna go somewhere in south east asia you can pick up flights which are very very cheap.
less than half the price of, for example, a standard british air apex ticket.
so the supply available is very important.
likewise when we go to a country, we need somewhere to stay and over the last decade there have been more and more hotels built in virtually every place in the world.
secondly, you need disposable income, obviously.
a third factor concerns, if you like, the demographic situation, if you've got children erm if you've got elderly relatives to look after, that will obviously determine whether you're enabled to travel and perhaps where to.
you've also got geographical factors the journey time.
again last week we talked about the feasibility of going to australia for a week and the impact it would have on you after things like jetlag.
you've got things like socio-cultural factors in terms of paid holidays.
how many paid holidays do you get a year and when are you likely to be able to take them.
for example, many people have four weeks' holiday a year, but not many people can take that four weeks all in one go, there are usually restrictions that you can only take maybe a maximum of two weeks.
hence the socio-cultural factors are important erm and another important one at the end of the day is your own personal mobility.
your own health and fitness.
now this can become an increasingly important factor because of all the activity holidays around today.
for example if you go for a peter stuyvesant activity holiday, you have to have a medical first.
erm unless you've got a doctor's note saying that you've passed the medical, they won't allow you to actually go on the activity holiday.
now that's a drawback in many respects, but it's also if you er think about it, a very good selling point.
it makes it sound really challenging and adventurous before you've even bought the package, the mere fact that you have to go through that beforehand.
motivating factors are more complex and the sort of things we'll be talking about here something we call income elasticity.
and in fact we'll come back to look at this and bob will also be looking at er with you environmental analysis as well.
erm the whole question here is if you have more money in a sense, what do you spend it on?
in general we find that, for a very small increase in, for example, wages, we tend to spend a lot more, proportionately, on holidays.
it's almost as if we think subconsciously well we've got that little bit extra, let's go for it.
even though in effect you're using more of your income proportionately than you would have been doing before.
the other thing about holidays and elasticity is the question of what happens when the price of a holiday goes up.
now we looked at the graphs and that should dictate in general that demand will go down.
but it doesn't seem to work like that.
in general even if the price of a holiday goes up extortionately, the number of people going overseas tends to stay about the same.
w we haven't noticed, if you like, a very big change in it.
if you at the statistics over the last three to four years, you'll find the number of u k people travelling abroad has always stayed round about the thirty million mark, despite what's happened to the prices.
a second factor motivating people again it's the demographic situation, the fact that if you haven't got children, you're free to do what you want.
you don't have any, if you like, responsibilities as such.
geographical factors can be a motivating factor, er we've talked about the sun and the influence of the sun.
you can also have geographical factors again, as we said last week, to do with things like scenery and obviously geographical factors are very important if we consider skiing er with the classification of the ski slopes between difficult and suit beginners.
or the pistes as we call them.
socio-cultural factors these relate to things like our beliefs and notions and our aspirations.
but probably the key one here is the belief that somehow if we go on holiday, we're gonna come back totally refreshed.
again we talked about this last week, fifty weeks of the year you toil and you look forward to your holiday months in advance, you then take your holiday and somehow it recharges your batteries so that you're ready to do battle again for the next fifty weeks.
it's claimed by many people that we live in a cycle where, if you like, we struggle to get through fifty weeks of the year to live for holidays recharge the batteries, then you go into it again.
incidentally on this one you've got the lifestyle aspirations.
if you think of what you do on a holiday, it's a totally different lifestyle to when you're normally working and obviously people desire to have that sort of experience more and more, and you've got the rise of things like short breaks.
so again the trend today is towards people having at least one overseas trip a year and possibly two or three short break weekends as well.
er increasingly, we're also looking at a new market which has a holiday in the summer overseas and in winter goes skiing.
again trying to get more of this lifestyle into their day to day existence.
comparative prices are gonna be a motivating factor.
competition, the price of alternatives etcetera and then you only have to look in any travel agent's window to see that that's an important factor today.
windows covered in prices, lots of talk about discounts, vouchers, all sorts of things to try and get you to part with your money.
personal mobility.
here by the main we're talking about the motor car.
the advent of the private car has made a greater percentage of the population mobile, we can reach many different areas today by private car.
and then we've got some factors which i wasn't sure where to put, government regulations erm again you'll come on to this later in the year deregulation of the airlines allowing free competition between airlines and low prices.
issuing of passports, currency exchange controls these can be both enabling and motivating factors.
and finally, the big one, the impact of the mass media.
everything from newspapers to television movies the lot.
and so while these things here enable us to leave home, if you like, these things are buzzing round in our head and in marketing these are things we have to look at in order to, we have to be able to make product and then try and assess how will the tourist or potential tourist respond to this.
what will they think about it.
and so just gonna do a diagram now, just look at buying influences.
what are the things which actually are going through someone's head when they buy a product.
you don't need to list all of these, just the headings are fine.
we've got both, if you like, cultural motivations in our head.
cultural beliefs, values and lifestyles.
say at the top 
er that's just buying behaviour.
patterns of buying behaviour.
so the first things going through a buyer's head, or that will influence them, will be the sort of lifestyle they're actually looking for.
the value they're attaching to this holiday, is it an important element for them?
is it the one thing in the year for them.
are they just doing it quickly as a one off?
what do they expect to get out of the holiday?
now so far we've talked about things like recharging the batteries.
what other things is people likely to get out of a holiday though?
imagine when you go on holiday, what other things are you hoping to get as a result of it?
a sun tan.
right, a sun tan.
well you're probably only doing that though in order to impress people when you go back.
so you're looking for attention probably more than anything.
so attention seeking's one thing.
have a good time.
sorry?
to have a good time.
okay, you could what, what would you be hoping to achieve during that good time?
have a few laughs, what else though?
what other things do you hope or do you think might happen shall we say?
to meet some nice people to go on holiday with.
right, meeting people.
things like romance are very important with holidays.
i mean, you all know about the image the cruiseliners have with wealthy widows and things like that.
the club eighteen thirty idea is much along similar lines, and if you look at a club eighteen thirty brochure, the sort of activities people do together, bringing people together.
so this is all an important element.
cuisine.
right, cuisine could be an important motivating factor.
er basically stuffing yourself to excess for two weeks.
drinking yourself to excess for two weeks for peanuts.
again, that would be something.
but in general the people who are doing some of those things, a lot of it's probably escapism certain type, complete break from their work.
what other things do you think you would hope to get as a result of your holiday?
time to relax.
right.
okay time to perhaps to relax, to reflect.
see various water sports 
okay, so you can improve your prowess at windsurfing.
and certainly there's the fitness, activity side, that can be an important motivating thing.
what else will you do on holiday?
all we've talked about so far is drinking and lying on a beach.
sorry?
sightseeing.
right, sightseeing.
so what do you hope to get out of sightseeing?
increase your knowledge.
right, increase your knowledge.
see different cultures.
right, see different cultures.
anything else?
take photographs.
sorry?
okay.
look at nature, get back to nature.
certainly that's the appeal of central parcs.
anything else?
see how it feels, the way that they live there.
okay well that would again tie perhaps more in with culture.
i mean you can, you're starting to get, if you like, a big list now of motivating factors.
er for example all of us in this room, if we went to one destination, we'd probably all come away with a different combination of things that we'd actually got from it.
it might be education, it might be knowledge, interest can be another one er relaxation, romance, having a good time there are a whole se sequence of different reasons.
there are other reasons as well, things like peace and tranquillity er time to reflect er and yeah there are other motivations as well which you, if you like, are kind of negative.
for example the desire to escape your humdrum existence back here, er the desire to escape the family, er to have someone moaning at you continually, these are all important factors which add on.
so in effect there are kind of like negative motivating factors which is basically all to do about escape where you don't care where you go as long as you get away from here.
and then there are the things you get when you actually go to a destination.
so again if we look at all of these things across the top we've got other things influencing across here when you go on holiday you, each of you in this room, you'll probably have some idea beforehand of what you want to get out of that holiday.
for example if you go on an overland trip trekking in erm south america, you're clearly looking for something totally different than the person who goes on the sort of typical club eighteen to thirty type holiday.
other things which will influence, it's claimed, are things like social class er again used ex er extensively by marketing people in this country.
now you'll be doing this before christmas, and what it is is there, there are lots of different categories we can use but the standard one is dividing the population into six distinct categories.
by and large it's according to people's occupations and you start with a which will be professional people, surgeons solicitors etcetera.
you have b which are managers.
c one which would be office workers.
c two skilled workers.
d unskilled workers and e, that would be everybody else.
okay?
and as students you're in e.
so this will actually influence you, because you'll be able to look through the brochures and see which of those groups it's being targeted at.
erm to give you an example let me show you this brochure here this is page and moy high prices and clearly that is aimed at a and b.
looking at this one you can see that the whole format's totally different, like the cartoon on the front and the layout.
and that who would you say that was aimed at?
well it's young people, what sort of occupations?
would it appeal to you?
do you think?
er there 
mm yeah i think it would
yeah.
so we're probably thinking perhaps partly students.
er because people in this age group haven't yet become managers and certainly not professional, we're probably thinking more in terms of the es and students and perhaps c twos c ones.
these are not cheap holidays so it probably rules out the d category.
so the social class structure is important.
it's also the question of mixing between these groups as well.
it's claimed that people feel uncomfortable if they're plunged into a group of people who are perhaps from a different social class or background say.
in particular in this country and it's also the same in france and germany.
we tend to be fairly what we might call gregarious, meaning we like to stay with people of our own type.
people speaking our own language, people who do similar things to ourselves.
the final one here again, simply economic.
again we're back to price and things of that nature.
and then we have the individual psychological factors which go through our heads.
and the things that actually go through our heads we refer very often to as cognitions.
cognitions.
our thought processes.
for example if you went to nepal, one of your motivations for going there might be to meditate or relax and that would be a cognition.
it's something you would know within your own head.
we have the various learning processes, how do we learn?
that's quite an interesting one, if you consider as students how do you learn erm in general you probably don't learn that much in lectures because for example we know from experiments that we all have a limited attention span.
basically you will listen for maybe seven minutes then you switch off for two minutes then you switch on again and then you try and think well what was i listening to seven minu well you know, three minutes ago what was probably said in the last two minutes.
by the time you've sussed that out, you've missed another five minutes, your brain gets confused so you then switch off again for another three minutes and try and clear everything.
and you're doing this the whole time.
but how do we actually learn?
taking information through your senses.
okay you take in right reading, listening
from experience.
from experience and there are also the occasions very often when you're, if you like, force fed.
when you've got exams you have to learn.
you have to be able to hold it up there and perhaps put it down on paper or apply it.
we also learn from things like television.
most of you here, a great deal of your knowledge probably comes from watching television.
possibly more nowadays than, for example, from reading as would have been the case in the past.
this is an interesting one, the interpersonal response.
how do you interact with people when you go abroad?
are you the type who wants to go up to, you're on holiday in spain, go up to a spaniard go hola
you know, and actually try and hold a conversation with them.
are you the type who thinks god there's someone from spain over there, oh it's alright there's a load of people from my nationality in the bar and stick with them.
are you looking for the interaction where you learn something about the culture from talking to the people or do you want minimal interaction where simply you visit a place, and you stay in your little bubble or ghetto with people of your own tour company, you do everything together and you never come into contact with local people.
erm two if you like extremes and there's a lot of things in between.
it doesn't incidentally mean that one is good and the other is bad.
er a lot of people give the impression that we should all be more interactive, that we should go abroad and speak languages to many of these people, but the people you come into contact with when you go on holiday in spain, the only spanish people are likely to be the waiter who served you and he's serving you as part of his job.
his job is also to be friendly to you, to smile at you, you know, when you want it, so it's not really an equal relationship.
it's very difficult, if you like, to develop a true friendship and exchange of ideas.
the waiter very often will tell you what you want to hear.
yes?
if you think about that, it's a very difficult situation.
attitudes are important, what attitudes do you hold.
in particular, what prejudices.
do you have a prejudice against for example eating oily food?
do you have a prejudice against the french?
which a lot of english people do.
erm prejudices come from all sorts of things, some of them are historical, some of them are generated out of things like football and arguments in the evening about good teams.
prejudices, we're all born with them, they're if you like perceptions which are only changed very often through experience.
we've then got general motivations themselves, which we listed.
it's cheap price, good deal, that sort of thing.
and finally perhaps your own personality as well.
are you an extrovert person outgoing, willing to take a chance, willing to take a risk or are you more introverted perhaps?
what is traits?
traits means characteristics.
just to show you how this has developed, you don't need to copy this down, it's something that you'll do in the second year of your course, but we mentioned in particular here how you interact with people and what goes through your head.
and this has actually been categorized into two tables and by , they claim that you can define different types of tourists according to, firstly, the way in which they interact with the local people.
so at one extreme you've got the explorer who simply goes off into the unknown.
the, the last thing the explorer wants on holiday is to meet people from their own country.
th they wanna get far away from it.
they don't really like being called a tourist in many places.
many of them will use the term traveller because somehow it's less derogatory, it sounds more impressive.
and these people here will learn languages, they will eat the local food, they will do anything the locals do, they will dress like them, the lot in order to try and get as full a experience as possible.
at the other end, you have what we call the charter tourist.
the person who goes there and basically they want to take their home with them.
in the case of an englishman they'll want to take their beer, steak and chips, everything over to simply a hot climate and they live in their bubble.
so you have these two extremes.
in between you have elite, offbeat, unusual, mass and so on but they all lie somewhere between these extremes in terms of totally interacting and totally ignoring in many cases.
the second type is the cognitive normative.
in other words, defining tourists according to what's actually going through their heads.
and here for example you might have the recreational mind, healthy mind and body the existential, the person who as much as anything may be looking for an experience based on meditation, er religion, this sort of thing.
er you've got, also down here, experimental the person who experiments if you like with different cultures, trying to think of a different way, who's interested in religions.
now you may think that the number of people in this category here is very minimal, but there's increasing numbers of people around the world travelling now who are motivated by things like this.
you only have to look at the number of visitors going to places such as nepal er to see the increase there, to see how important this connection be.
now for our purposes, the kind of thing we're gonna do, is look at a much simpler breakdown of tourists.
and this is gonna introduce you to a new word called psychographic and psychographic, you think you've got, you can break it in two you've got the psychological aspects and the graphic or mapping, the mapping of the psychology.
and this has been translated by a gentleman by the name of stanley clog
but we don't usually refer to it as clog's theory or anything like that.
and stanley clog identifies four different types of tourist and these are the main ones which we're gonna use.
two of them you'll of heard before i'm sure.
the first one you won't have done.
psychocentrics are the first one.
if you're a psychocentric tourist, you're the type of person who's self inhibited.
you're perhaps a little nervous of change you haven't got really a desire for adventure or anything too challenging.
you prefer well packaged routine holidays in popular tourism destinations and you're looking at the three ss or four ss we should say.
so you're looking at a package holiday resort in spain in the main.
okay, psychocentrics.
again, like to be in the crowds.
the alternative are what we call alocentrics, these are outgoing people with varied interests.
they're keen to explore, to find new things and they're likely to want independence.
and in between these two we also have something called midcentrics who do bits of both, but these are the two extremes.
so all of you in this room are either a psychocentric or probably an alocentric.
the type of person who goes on this holiday is almost certainly gonna be a psychocentric.
the type of person who goes on this holiday to destinations for example want somewhere unusual perhaps to india, is more likely to be an alocentric person cos they're getting away from the crowds.
okay so psychocentrics and alocentrics.
so this is what stanley clog produced, now we're gonna add two more to this, two that you're all familiar with i'm sure, firstly, sunlust people.
people who chase the sun beach holidays and there's a lust for a tan.
so for example w i can't remember your name who's the girl next to you?
michelle.
michelle is obviously a sunlust person in that respect and depending on whether she goes to a main package resort in spain or perhaps a beach in india, she can either be a psychocentric sunlust person or an alocentric sunlust person.
and the alternative to this is wanderlust.
the person who wants to explore, keep on the move and typified by some form of touring holiday.
okay so now whenever you look at a package holiday brochure, you should be able to identify the market just using two words sunlust alocentric, wanderlust psychocentric and so on.
so if you're looking at a touring holiday in europe it's wanderlust probably, and if it's an, a coach tour round europe it's almost certain to be psychocentric.
if you're looking for a tour around borneo and indonesia, that's away from the crowds so we can say it's an alocentric wanderlust.
so it's a very simple way, if you like, for us to define markets fairly accurately.
okay can everybody understand that?
sunlust, wanderlust, psychocentrics and alocentrics.
right well you'll be doing a lot more of this in your marketing.
er i've got two handouts which i want you to pick up er now.
one is something sp specifically written on the demand for the tourism product after nineteen ninety one.
try to highlight those factors or the determinants of demand which were gonna be important in buying the tourism products in nineteen ninety two.
and the second is something on tourism decision making.
this simply gives you, it's only a two page handout, it gives you some idea of the sort of motivations from what people have written about them.
what i also want you to do on this is if you can refer to adrian bull's book, the economics of travel and tourism, and just go through the relevant chapter on demand.
it's the wensley gate,group.
the tape recorder is now running, i hope that it's going to be recording, but let us not erm, be inhibited as a result of that.
erm, programmes, erm, haven't got a programme.
no.
erm, i haven't got a programme.
thank you.
you haven't got a programme, the very last one.
wh what, how how very carefully calculated that was.
erm, we are today, going to do the black sheep of the family, erm, because erm, erm, doesn't feel that he he's up to doing the one that he thought he would do this week.
that will be postponed probably for a fortnight.
can i remind you, erm, looking at that programme, that, erm, healthy eating now appears on, i think it's the, sixteenth of march, and sadly i shall be here on the sixteenth of march.
i shall be in leicester at any rate, and i may very well come and join you, to talk with you about healthy eating.
i was hoping to miss that one, because you might be trying to persuade me that i should erm, partake rather more of healthier food, than of the unhealthy food that i do eat.
er, it is.
yes, it is it is a project study, and therefore it would be as well, if we were all thinking about it in advance.
it it is in tha the hand-book.
er, it's on page a hundred and thirteen.
and the idea is that as we've done with previous erm, discussions, if each one could come along armed with some information to do with healthy eating, erm, there's a list on page a hundred and seventeen, that might start you off thinking.
erm, celery, low fat dairy products, incidents of heart disease for those who have an olive oil rich diet.
i don't olive oil, that's the trouble.
no.
formic acid can be helpful to pregnant women.
well that certainly doesn't apply to me.
no.
no.
twenty two heaped teaspoons full of sugar every day.
well, considering i have none, somebody's having an awful lot.
er, and eating will be always one of, and so on, there's a few items there, that you might like to concentrate on, and perhaps, as much as anything, if you have your minds open in the intervening number of weeks.
if you see an article, a snippet, er, a comment, from a newspaper, from a magazine.
cut it out and bring it along, and i think it will all add to our discussion of healthy eating.
i will try and remind you about that, er, on other occasions, so that it doesn't er, slip into the recesses.
er, and the other thing, just to comment on the programme.
i hope that we shall have the deputy lord mayor, er, bob on the last wednesday of our session.
the reason the programme's taken so long, was to find a time when he's available.
that wednesday is in the school holiday, although we shall be continuing.
it means that he can slip out of school, er, in the afternoon, when normally, in nor on a normal school day, he would not be able to do that.
erm, so i'm hoping that that will work, it's it's down in the diary for him to do that, and and i've given a little note about what the adult school is all about.
and i'll write to him to confirm, and er, if i do bump into him, i shall jog memory of that one.
erm, with the change of programme, then, the black sheep of the, of the family.
er, which i have already found.
it is on page a hundred and thirty- nine, for those of you who wish to er, follow.
it starts off with.
baa baa black sheep, have you any wool?
how does the black sheep of the nursery rhyme appear to children?
other sheep they see, are unlikely to be black, so a black sheep is different.
they soon learn that anyone referred to as a black sheep, is not only different, but is regarded as being in disgrace.
this is all politically incorrect.
yes, yes, yes it is, indeed,
i was thinking about that.
isn't it, nowadays.
wh wh wha what shall we do, if they were saying a black sheep?
erm.
a green one.
erm, a green.
yes, yes, yes.
i don't think you can even say, non-white, can you, nowadays.
yes.
a jacob.
a jacobs sheep.
a jacob.
a jacob's sheep.
yeah.
well,per yes, that's er, yes.
a jacob's sheep.
so i do i don't know.
is a, a jacob's sheep is black, is it.
yeah, it's black.
you know.
mm.
no, they're, they're dark brown.
a ger a ger, yes, a da a dark co a dark coloured.
like chocolate.
yes, dark coloured.
mm.
mm.
can't fit the notes in for that.
he he hear we go again, and ev even things, we can't say sheep.
well, i mean, isn't it, got it's sexist overtones or it is 
erm, you mean to say sheep, as opposed to ewe, or 
oh, come off it.
someone was saying on television 
one said, one of those, er petrol weekend things, about all the black things, and they they were saying, you know, the black a black mood.
somebody's in a black mood, they ob were objecting to that.
yes, yes, yeah.
life's a bit short for all that, isn't it.
isn't it about time this silly nonsense was laughed out of court, and have done with it.
yes.
yes, quite.
i think we should forget these 
yes, yes, yes.
i think it's absolutely right.
so erm, instead of black, and we shall, we shall continue to say 
yes.
black sheep, they are, and black they they are, so they are black sheep.
in this dictionary of phrase and fable.
brewer equates black sheep with bet noir, the eyesore in the flock, a disgrace, something unpleasing.
sheep used to be of great importance to the british economy.
black sheep was often despised by shepherds, and their wool was less valuable.
nevertheless, even black sheep were used for export.
okay, that's that's the bit of erm, sheep background.
the nursery rhyme then, comes from tommy thumb's pretty song book from around seventeen forty-four, and the division of bags, one for the master, one for the dame, one for the little boy who where wherever he is, lives down the lane, is said to refer to the export tax on wool, which was imposed as far back as twelve seventy-five, making even the outsider sheep of value.
so black sheep are different.
the term is used negatively, but the black sheep of the family maybe an attractive person, someone with a sparkle, with a courage to be different, with a courage to defy the norm.
everyone, is says, can think of black sheep of their acquaintance.
every can you think of a black sheep of your acquaintance, do you do you.
no, i don't whether i can.
not acquaintance.
perhaps i've, perhaps i've, perhaps i've mixed in a very sheltered society.
perhaps family history, perhaps, but not the very 
yes, yes.
no.
i don't think er, and of course, er, again perhaps the idea of a black sheep, has changed over the years.
erm, circumstances which made someone, perhaps fifty years ago, considered to be the black sheep of the family, wouldn't necessarily be the same now.
no.
mm.
erm, spivs.
i i don't think i had anybody in my family who was a spiv.
but there was somebody in in the street where i lived, who was a spiv, and he was considered to be the black sheep of the family, didn't quite fit in when everybody else did.
yeah.
yeah.
nowadays, you know, erm, don't know whether that sort of thing 
enterprise, culture.
en enterprise, culture, yes indeed.
yes, yes.
er, i mean in the olden days, they used, they they usually the sent to the colonies or, sent into the army or or into religion, weren't they.
mm.
mm.
mm.
also, we are a much more tolerant society, generally.
yeah.
yeah, yeah.
we can encompass people who are a bit different nowadays, which they couldn't.
yeah.
couldn't in those days.
yes.
yes.
yeah.
i think they use the phrase now, do their own thing.
that yeah, yeah, yeah
mm.
mm.
mm.
yes, yeah.
so we now have erm, reference to the bible and the erm, prodigal son.
the prodigal son was a black sheep to his father, and to his older brother.
but how different were the reactions of the two.
his adventure started off quite normally, as i'm sure you'll remember from the erm, from the parable.
every child must break away from the parental fold, and establish his own personal identity.
things began to go wrong when he got into bad company.
he had then asked for his share of his inheritance.
he wanted it then and there, not later.
with money in his possession, was he a pray to the unscrupulous.
i'm sure he was.
he had journeyed into a far country.
that showed initiative.
but did it cut him off from the guidance he needed?
the story relates, that he spent all.
he was not prudent enough to have saved, so he began to be in want.
having came to the he was hungry, so he was glad to be h hired by a local farmer as a swine herd.
even the pods he was giving to the pigs, he would have liked to have eaten himself.
he decided to go home, and offer to be a servant instead of a son.
but his father was overjoyed to see him, and at once threw a party.
his elder brother coming home from the fields and hearing dancing enquired what was going on.
when he heard the explanation, and that even the best calf had been killed, the fatted calf had been killed, to help the party he was furious.
and that is understandable.
at this point, we are then asked to consider, does the elder brother become the family black sheep, is there a sort of change of position.
i don't know what 
i wouldn't think so.
no.
a brother.
the story makes its point to the finish.
mm.
mm.
so th they,yo yo you couldn't see a situation where the person who er was previously in disgrace, was no longer in disgrace, and the one, the the the brother, then showing je jealousy, was himself in disgrace.
sounds like fiction.
sounds like fiction.
no, it's just the father's attitude that changed, not the way that 
mm.
mm.
well, he, he was repentant, he was only repentant because he was hungry.
yes, yes, yeah, yeah.
can you stop being a black sheep then, did did did he stop being a black sheep when he came back.
was that the end of the story, as trevor was saying.
well, he certainly gave the father the opportunity to say, i told you so.
mm.
mm.
done, yeah
mm.
or he could say i was one 
i was one of the black sheep, but i'm no longer.
i'm no longer, yes.
the next, the next question is is jealousy another powerful promoter of family black sheep.
i'm not quite sure what that means.
is is is is jealousy another power promoter of family black sheep.
it is jealousy that pushes people into being black sheep, into er doing something which is not acceptable.
yes, i think it can part of it.
mm.
mm.
you know one sees, rightly or wrongly, that the other one is having preferential treatment.
yeah, yeah.
and getting attention seeking.
it could well have been the jealousy of the older brother, what caused him to be thought of as a black sheep.
black sheep, yes, yeah so jealousy is quite powerful, could could be the driving force, between sons, yes.
sons.
in those days when there's land expected.
yeah, yeah, yeah.
this, by the way, erm, it it is applied with this study, and that is during the thirties, particularly on the, well it it actually carried on into the forties, but but the, there was a almost a character in many plays, where one one character was, in effect, the family black sheep.
erm, there was in eden end, erm, there was another character in erm,there was a further one in 
oh, yes.
yeah.
now, all these were black sheep, they were the nicest of the lot, and there was no, they were the ones you turned to, if you wanted to discuss your troubles.
not the other respectable brigade, and indeed in eden end, the whole play turns on the jealousy of the sister, who remained at home.
mm.
the the family black sheep, the other sister went, er, er, left home to go on the stage.
but of course, when she came back, all sorts of things began to happen, that's by the way.
one other little point, in brideshead revisited, there's a character who never appears, she's always spoken about, and thwarted and that is the man who brideshead marries, and she says, talking to julia, julie was no better than she should have been.
you know, she says, in every catholic family, er, there is always a relapse person, and it's usually the nicest.
aw.
mm.
so even evelyn waugh's told this story.
yes,
yes, yes, yeah.
so a again, the idea of perception comes into it, doesn't it.
it's it's the way,
, yes.
erm, the person is perceived and and and the perception may not be accurate.
it it that it may be influences, er, at work there.
erm, the the the suggestion was then, that the two young men and the the parable of the prodigal of son, started off as insiders, but in turn, they became outsiders in in in in some way.
erm, and the final short paragraph of that section refers to the parable of the lost sheep, er, not necessarily of black in colour, but deviant in behaviour, figuratively a black sheep.
i'll leave you to to look up that one, and erm, and and read if you want to do.
a section then on branwell bronte.
a short life, you erm, you you you perhaps will be able to contribute from your knowledge of erm, bronte, particularly of branwell bronte.
branwell patrick bronte, dates eighteen seventeen to eighteen forty-eight.
was the only son in a family of six.
from mrs gaskill's life of charlotte bronte, and from barbara and gareth lloyd-evans, companion to the bronte's.
it seems clear that branwell had so much potential, he might have been as successful as his sisters.
what went wrong then.
his sisters also had to bear tragedy.
branwell was only four when his mother died.
before he was nine, two of his sisters, elizabeth and maria had also died.
how difficult for an imaginative and a sensitive child.
he was loved and looked up to by his sisters and aunt, and his father unstintingly spent time, energy and money on him.
eventually his sisters, especially charlotte lost patience with him.
but when he died, the family was anguished by his loss and his unfulfilled talent.
he painted, he wrote poetry and stores, but he lacked discipline and become an alcoholic.
charlotte letters showed how bored she was by her limited home environment.
was boredom part of branwell's trouble, too.
it was branwell, who suggested that the harworth parsonage should publish its own magazine, but after the third issue, it was charlotte who took over the leadership from him.
in the short period, when charlotte was away at school, that's january eighteen thirty-one, to may eighteen thirty-two, he was writing well.
essentially a creative person, he was unpredictable, and became self-destructive.
as an artist, branwell went to london to seek admission to the royal academy schools, but he lost heart, as soon as he arrived, and never even began.
he became more and more depressed, and sought consolation in the local pub, where he was soon well known as a talkative character.
encouraged by his father and several friends, branwell acquired an artist's studio in bradford, where, at first, he made an effort, and cultivated influential friends.
but, sad to say, talking and drinking got the better of him, and his work deteriorated.
twice he became a tutor, but he neglected his work.
in one case he had an affair with the mistress of the house, which led to his dismissal.
he had a period as a railway clerk at bridge, but was dismissed because of a deficit of eleven pounds.
as barbara and gareth lloyd-evans say, it's impossible to know how the money disappeared.
embezzlement forgetfulness, inefficiency.
did branwell grow up.
he promised to much.
he was his own worst enemy.
like the prodigal son, he wasted his substance in riotous living.
er, it's a bit of back background then about branwell.
you know anything about branwell.
isn't it.
mhm.
erm, that his father didn't make him go to school.
mm
er, there's a suggestion that he had mild epilepsy, and they tried to keep it quite, and his father tutored him at home.
so he didn't have a normal life a boy of his circumstances in those days.
would have, yes.
it was more lonely, there weren't other boys around him.
mm.
mm.
there weren't other people around him, except his family.
yeah, so,
didn't help an unstable character.
that may have contributed, yes, yes.
yeah.
any other 
plus the rather powerful father figure.
mm.
mm.
yes.
which tend to 
.
yes, i i think, in cer in in most cases that would happen, wouldn't it, if if if the child starts off with a feeling of insecurity, with possible instability.
mm.
then a powerful father is going to make the situation worse.
because him being the only son.
mm.
he was probably spoilt by his sisters, and and got more or less what he wanted as a child, and
as a child.
carried on you know, what i want, i get.
mm.
in adulthood.
what is this, thirty, thirty, how old was he, thirty-one when he died.
thirty-one.
oh, yes.
thirty-one very very young age, for someone, apparently so so talented to die.
think there were drugs as well as the drink.
oh well, that 
yes, yes, yes, yeah.
not mentioned there, but doubtless.
that is, that is true.
okay, the next thing, erm, accurate or not, trevor and i have already sa erm, talked about this, erm, many an adult school members will remember the enthusiasm and popularity that surrounded the future edward the eighth, when he was prince of wales.
prince of wales it is suggested erm, was a black sheep of the family.
here it was thought, was a man who understood the people and for them.
someone with a genuine concern for the wounded of world war one, the miners of south wales, the unemployed, for, and homeless in general.
in slightly less than a year, citizens high expectations had been shattered and it was all over.
as john parker put it, in the king of fools, he had it all, wealth, charm, good looks, and he threw it all away on an american divorcee, who even his closest advisers considered an adventuress.
on the folly of his nazis connections.
on the absurdity of his get rich quick schemes, which involved him with shady financiers.
why?
this much travelled man, with all of his promise was at best, a controversial figure, and at worst a family black sheep.
he could have said with hamlet, the time is out of joint, and cursed spit that ever i was born to set it right.
edward, known as david to his family, did not want the role of kingship, but then, neither did his brother bertie.
many would say that as george the sixth, he succeeded where edward had failed.
george had discipline.
a sense of duty, a loyal wife and children.
affection bringing with it devoted support, brought success from a role undertaken reluctantly.
edward said he could not fulfil the role without the support of the woman he loved.
some family black sheep are making a bid for affection.
edward had the attention of the whole world, but without adequate personal affection, it was of no avail.
on december the eighth, nineteen thirty-six, time of the ab abdication, the times published a singularly apt quotation from a hopeless, throneless king, loathsome to men below to god's above a sad example of the slights of life.
what is your view of the way edward was treated after his abdication.
and none of us admits to being alive when all this happened, we, that goes without saying.
absolutely.
i did see him as a six year old child.
so yes, as a 
visited our town, our town.
he was a six year old child.
erm, i was a six year 
yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah.
so wh wh what do you think of the the attitude that was displayed towards him after the abdication?
he was very, very, generously treated.
far too generously.
i mean, he he could five hundred thousand pound on a christmas present to his bride.
my god.
mm.
he was more or less paid to go away and keep his head down, wasn't he.
yeah.
no matter what the cost.
most of the cr 
now it's all over,attitude, push it all away.
yeah.
all the here , a lot of the hereditary jewellery never, never got found.
no.
no.
after he had gone.
it was the er, either they they er
yes, i think they off.
say something.
mm.
so he he was he was paid off in in er, in a way.
yeah.
yeah.
allowed to 
yeah, they had to.
go away and keep quiet, and 
yeah, yes.
it all 
of course, the erm, the interesting thing is, that he wasn't the black sheep of the family.
no.
no.
it's okay i prefer pizza.
yeah you can't always eat pizzas jonathan!
and lasagne and shepherd's pie.
oh.
can you remember when steven put that salt on my dinner.
yeah who's going with mr ?
mm?
i said who's going with mr ?
jason and tom liam and matt probably and i don't know the rest.
friends though isn't there?
yeah a tiny bit more.
that's very nice jonathan.
mm oh ha oh!
couldn't eat a bit more than that.
cor, nor could i!
it's filling innit?
mm.
very filling.
here's daddy.
oh you're are you?
we couldn't wait no longer!
no i've been .
ooh ooh ooh!
ah smells a bit spicy what is it?
ah bread!
don't worry you'll .
oh pardon me!
another job ooh oh you've had yours then.
mm i've just had it.
might as well take that, you've got plenty there oh, how you been then?
okay.
alright?
you got my message did you?
yeah.
we're down pete's.
well yeah you know go mondays.
well yeah but i thought you went monday mornings.
no.
monday afternoons.
no i didn't realise that well i mean 
well i had to come all the way back didn't i.
why?
because i don't like his van.
yeah but what's the matter?
i couldn't, you can't really see on it.
oh.
i couldn't see, i ain't got my glasses on me.
oh i see oh.
i'd have a guess.
yeah but i've gotta make so i had to come all the way home!
i'd come to that they
well i've made appointment for wednesday so bloody well keep that!
dad, i wonder why 
yeah 
tape flickers?
no.
your voice.
no.
you need to change them batteries, the batteries isn't very good at all!
no i don't think it's that, i think it's cos it's getting near the end of the tape.
no it can't be cos we've only just just turned that one over!
no we haven't.
we did.
that's near the end of the tape.
is it?
yeah.
oh good!
is the tape ?
yeah yeah.
i taped i want you to check it for me, i taped me and sue walking home cos i have to do around the school you see.
yeah.
so i can do it walking home can't i?
yeah.
and i've had it on the .
ken 
he's on holiday for three days.
oh is he?
oh.
i think he's getting his .
yeah no i didn't realise he weren't there said to see you tomorrow, they never said nothing and john said what's the matter with ken?
i said oh i don't know.
john ?
yeah so he said er what's the matter?
john ?
yeah, said i dunno, said he isn't here today but er 
yeah well pam says he's got three days holiday.
oh can you come and stay ?
i didn't hear a word you said.
what?
.
what's that terry waite that's it.
accident 
ooh ooh!
in the .
and he wonders why he's got a
that's right he does.
something wrong with his he's likely to.
yeah.
he's on booze saturday afternoons and saturday night sunday afternoon lun sunday night, i said my god!
still with the money he saved he's got enough .
well he said he got through fifty quid.
well that's quite some money, fifty pounds worth of
that's what he said
well he can put bought as much as we're gonna buy you can drink yourself silly for thirty one.
yeah i know.
no i thinks that sounds silly.
what?
can you get can you get too oh there's none in it i like 
shandy too.
that's hot!
nice.
pete's gone down to the shop and got yourself a bottle whisky.
has he really?
makes the look nice dunnit?
well he's got a cold, a very bad cold.
oh yeah.
gotta bring him up to scratch .
yeah.
ooh it's a terrible cold innit?
he has really got a bad cold.
yeah.
yeah.
sounds awful!
he was a choking and a coughing!
he was 
no he wasn't coughing.
he went 
is that enough?
yeah that's fine.
is that alright ?
yep wonderful!
right, done it!
oh mum what have you done to it?
you don't want here are .
oh alright, give it to them.
even my .
no don't wipe your dirty one!
i'll get a clean one just turn that water off for us jonathan?
oh why?
don't mess about with that!
where?
from where?
the boiler cupboard.
that's better.
oh wait, let's see what you gotta tell me today.
it's been a lovely day.
i beat you to it.
yeah well i couldn't so i had to come over and and buy them a flipping new one!
ooh i number again, i'll take it out in a minute.
yeah.
oh no 
and er she said well, i said i'm ever so sorry but she's anyway so i thought oh god!
that's a step in the right direction.
yeah.
i rang 
yep
dee dee dee doo doo .
you can't, you don't go through to that office at i go further on
yeah.
but they are amalgam is it 
yeah 
amalgamating, with another firm so the paper work probably has got lost so i 
she said she was gonna ring me back, but you see i haven't been here this afternoon so i'll perhaps ring again tomorrow.
okay.
well i couldn't do nothing about it really, she said well that'll be sorted out in she said i'll treat it, we're now sorting it out today what we're doing.
mm.
so i said well i hope it's not gonna be too long i said cos we're not a a very big firm and i said, you know, we want the money!
she said well i should imagine that's what's happened the paper work here has got muddled up with the other.
oh.
so she said i'll do i'll sort it out straight away for you well i had a phone call at 
eight o'clock this morning, who the hell that was from, i don't know, i was out the washing line i come flying in but i never got it, and nobody's rung.
.
not unless i get a few phone calls from been here today.
yeah.
but you must get that portable done cos then that reaches over there i can
no it wouldn't would 
mm.
it?
i bet it do i bet it will!
well they go for it round to the erm cemetery.
yeah well that'll be ever so handy, well you can try it can't you ?
what way down now?
to the cemetery?
the cemetery round st. andrews.
yeah.
flipping heck!
would do then well if we go 
past services.
yeah, mum's house is over there.
yeah don't go very well the other way we said, didn't we?
i've
i dunno why.
it was half way outside .
well 
tell you why 
too bad.
oh.
and guess what?
i can tell you why.
the other one never used to, the other one used to get as far as ken's house and fail.
did it?
yeah.
you must get it sorted out though, after christmas 
yeah.
there isn't much point now but
we can get right down to nearly.
well you see he'll 
why not?
he'll be breaking up the twentieth and how long you on holiday, fortnight?
no 
i thought you had a long christmas break?
well not i .
we don't break up till the twenty eighth.
yes you do, you break up on the twentieth!
christmas on the twenty fifth.
oh.
christmas day, yeah precisely!
christmas day is the twenty fifth!
do you want a cup of coffee geoff?
i bet this bit 
i'll have it after my tea.
cos got muddled up, then you know what he said?
he said we'll have the twi quiz thing, we have the quiz thing on the twenty eighth.
who said that.
mr .
i think he means the eighteenth.
no he probably means the twentieth.
i'm just going in here 
about the 
to have this,
no he said the la 
jonathan.
he said the last day yeah oh i hate these silly men.
mm.
this one i swapped with christopher.
yeah.
this one i swapped with christopher.
yeah
and this one i swapped with christopher 
yeah.
he's got a little cloak.
tell your dad what time we got up.
what time did you get up?
when?
this morning.
this morning.
that was last nights.
yeah.
that's it.
i'm going up stairs okay?
go on then.
yeah well i've i've just done that.
two.
so i just put you on it.
what about me?
well you are on it, you twit!
oh.
see i got sue on it as well.
you can't get them back.
erm, what else can i put there?
what?
we was at home 
put 
having tea
my aren't there.
then what can i put?
no good on there, you told them off.
walking from work.
yeah but that that is the sunday thing that's how i get muddled up with the date, but that's on the same tape you see?
yeah.
aha.
oh i'll put that yeah go on what was you gonna say?
oh i was just saying about that turkey thing and you said we'd never eat er
frozen.
mm i was saying when he worked at smedley they used to can up baked beans for er smedleys themselves tesco's
yeah.
all sorts of different people he said i would never ever buy any beans he said cos of this chappie who used to work they used to unless you change over the tin or something he used to spit in the tins.
urgh how disgusting!
every time i said, my god!
every time he said he said i never had a ba tin of baked beans my god!
oh that's absolutely disgusting!
yeah he said ju that's it you just don't know what you buy in there.
cor i couldn't le urgh!
quite!
oh and we eat a lot of baked beans 
i hope he don't work there still urgh!
won't know.
what what time shall i put on there?
what time?
on here oh i'll put about
mm.
yeah cos me and jonathan started talking on it before.
yeah.
you know?
mm.
mm.
i ain't made too many mistakes oh i've put them marathon .
mm.
nothing exciting happening, there's them poisoned dwarf.
my mothers today.
why's that?
cos they took him off and put him somewhere else.
i bet he didn't like that?
no.
was bleep in?
yeah he had a big do with the council man.
why?
the council bloke come down
oh, what is val's accent?
well west 
is it?
yeah.
to be exact.
well i don't know well that'll be on there if they want to know anyway now, you've just said it.
mm erm yeah the council bloke come down and went in while his father was there
i see you've got no carpets down anywhere the door's not painted and he said you've been living here for two years!
well what's the council man got to do with that?
well they got a grant you see.
well carpets ain't got nothing to do with it surely?
yes they have that's when i the house is finished.
oh.
when your carpets were down, you moved in so he's coming back december the eighth.
i thought he would have to tell them got his carpets down.
he had a carpet just put down in his lounge.
well he's got a lot to do then.
he was belly aching .
cor!
how's how's the thing between blue and
completely by now.
good heavens!
even the first day back there was hardly any atmosphere at all very serious mood they were but kim keeps well out of it.
oh i think she's the trouble maker there myself.
yeah she'll just keep well out of it.
i think that's what started it all off i think she's running off.
yeah.
oh whatever you done?
yeah she was erm well necessarily cos that day blue was working on the other team as well so he had his erm break at different time.
yeah.
and i er she comes storming out of the canteen swearing not at anybody in particular, just at herself really!
and then she's seen me, oh what time does blue finish?
i said whenever he about half past three so erm so then she come down geoff said you gotta finish half past three blue my god!.
oh.
and he did as well.
what you mean?
well like sometimes i'll say to him everybody gonna finish about four you know 
yeah.
what happens, then his she stands there, you bloody by four but i mean he finished when i said he was gonna finish for a change i should think.
i didn't know julia hadn't been in for a long while.
no, what's the matter with her?
she'd erm was erm getting a pie out the oven and cos some of the juice went on the floor, she wiped it up thinking she'd wiped it up properly and she didn't, she slipped, she's broken a couple of bones in her foot.
cor!
no i 
ain't seen for ooh
she hasn't been there for about a month.
that's it then .
i suppose she must have her foot in plaster.
mm and old bob down the road, bob , he hasn't been in for about the same sort of time this'll be his fourth week won't it?
well i see him walking about the other day!
he's hurt his hand.
oh.
come home from work on the saturday and assume he went shopping or something, apparently he hurt his hand..
has he?
yeah mr said have you seen do it?
i said, no i haven't.
well i seen her at even the other day.
yeah.
i think it might have been saturday possibly.
by saturday normally i see him.
well he goes up to do his shopping don't he, in town 
yeah.
and walk up .
yeah.
what does he do for christmas geoff?
no idea.
cos he's got a son away hasn't he?
got a son up sunderland.
perhaps goes there?
mm he normally goes up to his son's every six weeks.
does he?
yeah.
that must be a lonely old life for him living there all on his own.
yeah it is .
what happened to his mum?.
oh.
his wife.
carrying on with .
oh i don't know!
yeah she was.
i thought she was dead or something!
no she got off so she innit.
oh i dunno.
i've i think i'm right in saying she was something to do with erm that boy who
married someone else.
yeah.
oh!
i think she was that doing it.
perhaps it was her.
i dunno but erm oh yeah she's god, everybody used to go round their house.
oh crumbs!
mm.
and thi and this 
all the blokes on the one night on they used to go in there.
they didn't!
i assure you they did it's hard working down there for so long it
yeah cos he's a nice little man ain't he?
yeah he's harmless.
yeah ever so harmless little fellah.
yeah.
hard working old boy as well.
what about what brian said last night?
what?
about, cos that man was sitting outside may .
oh may .
he weren't sitting outside her house at all, he was sitting up here!
yeah well he, didn't go up the sides or something?
oh well he might of done, yeah.
make our bloody 
they're paranoid for people breaking 
yeah.
in arn't they.
yeah.
i was telling sue about it, oh my god she said!
she said well they didn't look the type, i was going well now 
yeah.
quite honestly he didn't!
yeah.
i said and he's quite and inoffe i inoffensive little man he was a nice little man.
bag of nerves weren't he?
well yeah, but he was a nice little man.
yeah.
he knew what he was talking about.
he reminded me of someone, i couldn't quite i know somebody who acts very much like him i just can't well i told him you remind me of someone.
did you get your milk today?
no, none at all.
oh right.
ooh i rang the club and sorted that out, done 
mm.
that.
yep.
so she said well don't don't put them down again i'm doing it by the computer.
ah!
so i said well do i get the things now?
so she said well no cos she said you're you're in the re in arrears a bit.
ooh i said, oh have i?
it ain't a lot!
so she said i'll do it on the computer and and i'll let you know so we're eighty pound behind well course we never sent one month at all!
did you not?
no!
so we got behind so i said well we'll tr i'll try and get caught up sort of, in the new year you know, get them a bit .
actually i think i'm gonna finish that catalogue anyway i'm just 
which one are we talking about?
grattan.
oh yeah.
and just have the other one cos they're such a peculiar funny firm they are!
mm.
so i explained to them, i said well that's cos you changed over and i sort of never put it across through oh she said well don't worry i've done it now, she said you haven't got anything to worry about now, i said well it did bother me a bit to think that i didn't think you had my payment!
oh yes she said, we've had it i thought well why send me letters,then!
well that's a standard letter i suppose and
well that's what she said, that's a standard letter.
yeah the only trouble is, you know, standard letters don't always sort of 
well you get some little old dear what runs the 
that's right.
catalogue to
yeah.
get a little bit of pocket money or that's the only way she can get anything!
oh they're out in that car again out there.
they've been working on sarah's today.
damn!
they're up to the roof aren't they?
yeah yeah 
what's 
they put the trusses on and then they fill the gables in and then put the tiles on.
i didn't think sarah didn't go to the ol lo oh had oh i wouldn't of thought that was a pair,
oh no they want something flash don't they.
well val was telling me caroline got the kids all in a row and said something about erm you know, more or less to say well i want to leave your father she said 
she did?
what do you think about it sam?
and he just put his head down.
and what do you think about it erica?
and she burst into tears!
and what do you think about it erm what did i say the other one's name was?
ben, erica
which one did i say?
that'll be ben the oldest.
ben, erica you said ben and erica.
no it was sam.
oh sorry, sam no it's sam, erica.
yeah well anyway the other one
yeah.
he said well i think that's the best you can do father, he said we've had enough hassle for you for all these years!
so she said quite right, she said he's done nothing but bully you lot ever since you've been children!
so she said and i felt very proud of my son, ah i said i wouldn't want a son of mine who said that to his father!
no.
i wouldn't of wanted it.
well no, but on the other hand you know
yeah but all said and done geoff, they are his fa , he is their father.
yeah but i mean it depends what sort of bloke he is, and i mean if he is like that 
he you know what a big head he is.
yeah but i mean you don't know what he's like to his kids do you?
well she said he he's done nothing but bully them.
well then the kid's right ain't he?
well you heard what he said he wants his children to have a good education and he pushes them all the time, they've gotta if they do anything 
yeah.
they've gotta be brilliant at it but 
yeah.
you see some children ain't got it in them and you know 
oh yeah.
but you heard what ashley said about swimming.
made them yeah.
well, to me if a child has got a by all means encourage along but you shouldn't push them into anything cos later on in life they get a bloody complex about everything you know if they
i don't know.
if they've got a job or something they're frightened they're not gonna do well and
where do you draw the line between you know, not sort erm encouraging and not
well i do it all look at it's the way you say it.
well that's what i'm saying, so perhaps the kid was right in what he said.
well yeah but i wouldn't 
been a bastard to him well
well would you like your son to say i think 
well no but i don't to think i am like that with jonathan.
well no.
well i don't like 
but he's always been like that with them kids you know yourself if they do anything it's gotta be done
well you know how he is, if you say too much to him, don't do that, don't shout at me!
he soons starts squawking and wiping his eye and stamping about the place but if he's like that all the while to them so what is .
they've all gone off to fiji.
who has?
the parents, he said he was going didn't he?
oh him as well?
so she said, val said i thought good for you mate, you didn't get pushed out he's gone they're all gone till the new year innit?
well i wouldn't of wanted to go with them myself.
well not after that little escapade, nor would i.
i wouldn't of thought so i would of sa i would of said well if i bloody ju good enough for living with i bleeding come on a i don't think she'd want him on holiday with her anyway and her sister said is she hadn't got enough money, she'd pay for it.
that's right that's what val told me.
she don't have time for him.
what?
she hasn't got a lot of time for him now.
who hasn't her sister?
her sister.
no she just says he's a bloody big head!
well he is isn't he?
well yeah.
ah i mustn't i must admit i don't think i know any worse than him.
but i think he's quite harmless really geoff i don't think he 
oh yeah.
means any harm, that's his way.
well that's yeah but i i must admit i find it quite tiring.
well he's always been pleasant to me you gotta 
i can honestly say he's the sort of bloke i would sort of try not to get lumbered with at a party or somewhere like that i mean i don't mind i didn't mind talking to her but i find her
well i find her boring.
yeah.
i find her very boring although she's a very kind person.
yeah, no i could talk to her more than i could talk to him.
i'm surprised you know, she isn't stuck for them children mo any more if he'd been 
oh yeah.
like this that's it.
let's face it she erm i mean she was the one who bloody married him!
well she hates him!
yeah.
she literally hates him!
yeah.
well i think that's awful i do.
well yeah well i suppose that's what she thinks, if she gonna go through the rest of her life with a bloke she hates.
well she might as well get rid of him now, i suppose while she's young enough to find perhaps find 
yeah.
somebody else.
well whatev whatever's all this big house in aid of then?
i bet they're gonna build it and sell it!
well that's gonna be the farm though innit?
they'll have to sell sell the farm and everything.
well yeah, i would've thought so because le 
and hope .
well let's face it erm he's got a, a half a half a right to it.
i know yeah.
he's worked hard, he's worked he ain't he does work, when he works.
does he though?
well i dunno.
i always see him riding about up the steven there he's always up there i know when i used to work for it was always steve who used to be riding to this farm, riding to that farm, checking on this, checking on that and taking the wages round that sort of thing.
and he does it now does he?
oh yeah.
you never see that erm do you?
no you don't.
well yeah cos when you think like that if they do pack up he's got no no nothing.
no not really.
well not unless they they don't sell that house well look at poor old dick!
yeah but he's just about retiring age anyway isn't he.
yeah but he's still gotta have a home to live in geoff!
well yeah, alright yeah but they normally get out don't they?
when they were like jack what's his name?
erm jack the foreman he got out and when he when he retired cos you know
well that's like er 
the house went with the job.
but then they've got er er said they they asked if they could rent his house off him until they got themselves sorted out.
no bloody way he said!
did he?
i thought to myself well yo if laura had a house and then thought pete was in that in that position, i'd of helped him.
did he really?
yeah well they've had they've had a big today.
who have?
.
oh?
well i thought she said i ain't gotta then have they?
a hundred pou thous thousand in debt they had two lo two bloody great morgan cars!
about what was that?
well i reckon that's her either his mother or her mother.
yeah.
cos when i was coming home from pete's a bloke stopped me er whatever's that noise?
i dunno.
a bloke stopped and he said er can you tell me where is?
i said well you're in the oh he said i'll tell you what i want, a little black and white house i said it's just there look i said nearly you're nearly on top!
he got a few yards down, he said so i said well have yo you haven't come round to view the house today have you?
oh no he said, i said because they got a funeral on, he said that's what we've coming for, we're coming to pick granddad up.
oh.
well i thought well i didn't want people going round there 
no.
well that was a waste of their time if they'd have gone round there to view them, weren't it?
yeah.
so that was not having a lot of flipping luck is she?
no.
but they haven't put them out their home.
no.
alright, but i think they've gotta re-house them first haven't they?
i dunno.
well yeah they just shove you out on the street, they gotta especially if you got children they gotta re-house you.
yeah.
but i dunno whatever's whatever's this bloody world coming to?
, she said i really don't where it's gonna end geoff, i don't know no more.
well you never guess what she said today?
no.
well i wa she said i'm gonna start up drinking june i said you're not!
she said i bloody well am!
she said you can up and have one with me if you like sometimes, i said alright then.
she said well he's got his fags, she said i'm gonna start drinking!
i said well be warned val!
she said i know when to stop, i thought yeah but 
yeah but 
that
i've heard all that before!
jonathan what are you doing ?
ooh and there's ooh something else happened as well!
yeah.
she erm
sha sharon's not going out with them now for christmas.
oh yeah, why's that then?
cos marie's going in hospital having her operation.
yeah.
she said and i'm not leaving her to you see!
no.
but val said them children them children have they manipulate her.
yeah.
i thought well manipulates you val.
.
so she said erm i'll bloody told her straight she said!
but she said there's geoff worried sick about that old girl
yeah.
because he's said well she's go she's they got her this little place, didn't they?
sorted it all out for her and carp it was all carpeted everything
yeah.
now she's gone and moved down in west .
but he val said it was that flipping rough
yeah.
and the house is like a tip!
yeah.
and she said geoff kept saying to her oh i wouldn't move from where you are, you know you got your place lovely i if you the reason she moved was cos she wanted tony to get the breakfast round what was said that's what val said.
i can well imagine.
so she said the 's go out with them don't they?
di oh yeah that makes me laugh!
what?
what does?
well she isn't is she?
well erm 
that's what i mean they don't call them they call them cos she don't want to lose her name does she?
pathetic innit!
i didn't think ken liked the woman.
bloody arrogant can you get!
well ken don't like the woman anyway, does he?
i know he don't no.
well i certainly wouldn't sit down at christmas dinner with them that's why 
yeah 
they're going.
oh you said yeah.
and er mervy.
yeah.
and that's all now so val said she said i said to cheryl now don't you go and take mervy away cos me and ken certainly aren't gonna go and sit sit with erm the 's all dinner time so she said what they're gonna do, they're going out for the meal and everything and then they're ken are gonna go to cheryl's for the rest of the day so i said so that's upset your plans then val she said isn't it just!
she said i've been really looking forward to it june.
have a break looked like she gonna cry any second!
she said
oh.
do you know me and ted have been married thirty year no not thirty, they've been going out together thirty years 
yeah.
then she said do you know these last six months we do nothing but argue she said we've never argued so much!
yeah.
and she said oh i think it's only the pressure.
well that's right.
i said well me and geoff argue more, i said we never used to cos we never argued a lot did we?
no.
well we have done i felt sorry cos i hadn't really when she phoned me up over there i was up i thought oh my god!
yeah,
cos i'm a bit worried we gotta get things sorted out so i rang i said i didn't to get onto you, she said no i know how they feel she said her granddad always do things like that.
what?
you know break appointments i said well that only worries
it ain't quite the same is it?
well i said i suppose geoff couldn't get away.
well they just wouldn't let me 
i said that that worried m that really sort of worried me so i rung her back anyway, she's alright.
well, you don't wanna worry about them because at the end of the day, i mean if if that was absolutely desperate i shall turn round and say well i'm sorry i've bloody got to and that's it!
you know, but i mean
but you must go wednesday geoff!
yeah no 
and she been 
it was they was that panicking cos tomorrow morning, the ministry are coming and 
yeah.
they was panicking.
we all it is ba , well i say all it is this bloody great strip right be between the ceiling and the walls, the right length of corridor and the manager see it and he said look that should be shiny sort of like and it's all pitted so he said you'll have to go up here he said and do it all with steel abrasive said fair enough.
so of course i, took me about half hour to find the forklift cos somebody had nicked it by time i went got the chemicals robin comes down, he said oh don't worry about he said do i do it tomorrow morning he said, they'll be nobody about then can you go down the bot bottom and do the butterflies?
i felt well bloody marvellous, you now,i it was that imperative it had gotta be done, you can't have time o no i'm sorry you can't!
so you could of gone to that appointment tonight?
well, well no, no because it was then about, that's what i'm is, then four o'clock you see, so i mean i knew i wouldn't make it anyway that's why i thought i'd better ring cos the job that we finished was half past three so i thought well even if i come home i shall be late even if i don't get changed and washed or anything.
yeah well you can't go there not washed and changed.
no that's what i thought i was
but you got an appointment fo you could of had one for tomorrow but i thought wednesday is a better day i thought.
wednesday is a better day, and anyway thursday's erm he's got a he's gotta go at four actually go at four not an appointment, he's gotta go at four.
why erm why do the ministry keep coming down there then?
do they turn up there?
well i don't know, whether they're trying to catch them out but they they certainly coming down more and more an and sort of more and more frequent.
i'm surprised they warn them that they're coming.
well it's erm the sort of things they pick them on really is not that
not hygiene sort of thing?
no, thing i mean silly little thing, well i think it's silly but there you are, they all see to know what they're talking about but i mean cer certain things like in the fillet room
mhm.
the meat is not allowed to go on just an ordinary pallet.
it's gotta go on a special one?
it's gotta go on a steel pallet and yet next door in the export chiller they're allowed to go on a wooden pallet and we work on wooden pallets erm
i'm surprised they use wood.
well if you see how many pallets they got and you see the trouble is the metal ones are so slippery they're all the while dropping meat all over the floor.
yeah i suppose they would, yeah.
there's loads of things they're on about oh th the there's a whole book what they gotta h have sorted out.
do they?
oh christ yeah!
certain doors are not to be opened things like emergency exits there's they notice that there's more one of the emergency exits is actually broken, so the door don't even open.
bloody hell!
so all that stuff 
well then that is, that's gotta be sorted out because if you 
yeah.
had a fire there, somebody wouldn't get out properly!
that's right.
yeah.
well that's like us we haven't got an emergency exit.
what way do you go to your nearest exit then?
well there's a bloody great roller door, but you see it's at the end we work
yeah well what about if the fire was down that end?
well exactly!
how would you get out?
we haven't got the oh yes there is, oh course there is, that's a lie we go through yeah.
yeah well what about if the fire's between the box room and this exit?
well that's where they are i went that slid across there like that, phewf!
where are you going?
what ab oi!
don't ask then!
i mean i won't even talk to myself am i?
no..
i didn't tell your mum that i'd got it on you see she said now all that i've been saying!
so i said well no, no they won't take no notice of that, i said anyone that's been
yeah.
i said they ain't gonna say ooh that's val on there, i said the 
no they don't know who it is, do they?
i said well they don't know!
no it's the london university of
what is it?
london university.
in cambridge got something to do with, what was that he said?
well anyway something about university you know all these studies they do.
yeah.
it's all about speech patterns.
geoff and joan thought erm someone was trying to rob us along here!
he sat in his car out there 
poor little man!
and they thought that he was the accomplice sitting outside while somebody was going round the house.
i said i don't know what hollering for, he's got a bloody 
i'm surprised they haven't got 
rottweiller there!
the bloody postman down as a
oh yeah.
detective or something!
but how pathetic!
yeah.
well well no, you know i had at mum's and i 
yeah 
come home and i thought well i'll drop that, i'll stay and go up the ladder and i was gonna do painting you got him hey up!!
so i jumped right away.
!
then i thought what on earth did he say!
and then i just never understood a word of what he said.
well i can never understand him.
no i can't.
i thought what ever's he on about!
i can.
if we ought to had him mate they'd have thought he'd come from 
well 
another planet!
i can't never understand him.
no i must admit i can't.
we have this french woman come in she comes quite often mrs and she said i'd like to make an appointme appointment on the she said the eleventh, and i thought i said pardon?
and she said it again and i thought well i it didn't sound like eleven eleven i don't know what it sounded like really and i just went so that'll be wednesday the eleventh?
and i thought if she says yes, i've got the date right !
yeah.
and did you get it right?
yeah that's embarrassing, you feel an idiot don't you!
i was just gonna say yo 
yeah 
i was just gonna say you got a purple tint in your hair but i can see what it is now!
she got those to 
purple tint on top.
i like her hair tha that colour do you geoff?
i don't mind either way really.
i don't look like ann now do i?
no !
i dunno 
no.
well i think er the funny thing is it's looks dark now.
yeah.
well that's cos it's always been so light 
but i suppose it's been 
isn't it?
yeah.
ah i like it i knew there was something 
oh i like her hair.
different to me have a at least when you have it down sarah 
if you think so i've 
yeah.
i think i could of 
oh yeah 
er i mean i know it's a bit messy at the moment, i ain't washed it since last time you see!
oh i see yeah.
isn't you really?
no erm but when i when i have i'm so used to having it up and all tucked back when i have it down i feel scruffy
yeah?
yeah i think you do feel tidy if your hair's off your face.
yeah.
yeah.
mm but mind you i had that headband didn't i?
but what i'd like to do is i'm gonna set it on rollers i'm gonna blow dry the top i'm gonna 
yeah.
set the back on rollers and then, you know when i have it all clipped there with an oval clip 
yeah.
in my neck?
secure it there, pin it all under, then i'd like to get a net with sequins on it or 
oh yeah!
or something to put over it for evening, but i can't find one.
i wonder where you find one of them from?
you know, sort of back comb it out so it's sort of 
well they must do them sarah, mustn't they?
yeah but i thought i ain't seen anybody with it like that be a bit different, sort of when we go out new years eve and that.
mm where's a ?
i don't think we got one round here.
only peterborough i suppose.
peter or cambridge i suppose.
yeah.
mm.
and or perhaps a real sort of top hairdresser, they might have them they sometimes have bits and
yeah.
pieces don't they?
well that used to be all the rage once, didn't it?
yeah i mean we got hairnets at work sort of clear ones though.
i remember hairnets
you get 
oh yeah!
o yeah 
and
but they're erm 
they're red.
ah no ours are just you couldn't tell you'd got it on.
no.
no.
sort of a hair colour practical 
yeah.
you see.
that's right.
but i think next time i might have it cut short.
you're not!
i might do, i don't know i'm fed up with it really!
you want a change?
how 
yeah.
was you thinking of having it cut?
short.
what short short?
yeah.
actually i think it suits you, i mean really i like it's not on her face anyway isn't it?
no so short 
so i think 
no.
short hair would suit you cos you haven't got it all over your face have you?
cos i saw erm a photo when i was eighteen and i it was sort of short in the neck over my ears short in there and then sort of fuller there and then just a bit of you know a light fringe not a heavy fringe and i thought i might have it like that so
yeah.
that'll be nice i can't really remember 
well i think if that was me i'd have that done now in case you don't like it by the time you you get married and that could be growing again.
oh no i wouldn't have it cut until after i got married.
oh 
no.
you'd have it cut after?
yeah.
oh.
cos i definitely want my hair long for when we get married.
you do?
yeah.
yeah so that i can either have it up or down really.
yeah.
i've got the choice then.
yeah i do do you know i don't like to see brides with their hair down if you've got long hair i 
oh.
but i don't think sometimes i think well if it looks nice but some of them brides on there that just hangs don't it?
oh yeah, i'm not having it like that.
mm i think i but sarah did it at work, she did it sort of plaited it from here round
oh yeah!
and this was taken up in like folds but the plait stood away from the head, it sort of come out
oh yeah!
you know, as you get them half baskets that fit on a wall
mm.
yeah.
not as much but it sort of come out like that and then you sit your flowers it makes that a shell if you know what i mean?
oh yeah!
but it it's flatter coming on there and then you sit your flowers all along on there but
oh that's sounds nice!
but then i'd i like it fuller and prettier.
yeah.
you know i'd like a little bit more curly and not 
yeah.
curly curly but sort of fuller and
well you'll have to have it done a couple of times
yeah.
sort of try two or three styles then sort of how well you gotta think about your headdress and that first, haven't you?
yeah.
what you're gonna have and then pu guide your hairstyle to go with it we or
yeah.
or your wearing wha 
well, yeah.
no i'll be the next sa 
what you be doing in the new year sarah?
i know, i think after christmas i'm gonna go and have a look for some dresses and you see when it was an ordinary colour i was gonna have ivory but now it's this colour i think i'll be better having having white, i don't know.
mm.
i think if you've got the white .
yeah.
yeah but you aren't 
but then 
you haven't got a white skin sarah have you?
you've got a sort of a bit of an olivy skin haven't you?
it's not 
yeah yeah.
yeah so you will have time to
i shall be out there every day !
get a 
yeah.
tan won't you?
yeah.
you'll have time to do that.
you see if you have iv , and ivory dress certain colour bridesmaids dresses don't go with ivory.
yeah.
so they do do they?
no.
that sort of thing.
you're right yeah.
cos i think with ivory, i think peaches and that look nice, but i think with white i like stronger colours .
yeah.
still, i don't very often wear pale colours.
will you have your bridesmaids dresses made?
i don't know i hadn't really thought about it.
had you thought about your bridesmaids yet?
yeah i am not gonna have all six i think.
oh are you!
yeah, but i'm short of two little ones, or one little one erm amy's cousin joanne and and then helen florence's little girl, helen
yeah.
and amy's cousin claire and then this girl who's hair i do
what?
this girl who's hair i do erm her little girl, karla cor she's if i found a little girl to look like her, i'd have one!
oh.
but she is so pretty!
she's got white blonde hair.
so you want another little one?
yeah.
are you having any page boys?
yeah i might do yes erm probably ben.
well didn't you just have
that's what mum said, have the 
why don't you have the 
little bridesmaid and the page boy.
with the page boy?
yeah.
instead of having another bridesmaid, have a page boy and so the two little ones go up together page boy 
yeah.
and erm bridesmaid and then have your bridesmaids behind.
yeah mum, that's what mum said.
i think that'd look nice 
i might do.
a little boy and a little girl together.
yeah cos they're the same age.
yeah.
both blonde.
ooh 
mm.
she's ever such a pretty little girl, she's got white blonde hair 
oh i think that'll be nice!
really sort of she's just a pretty little girl.
yeah.
then she dresses her lovely as well.
then you haven't gotta worry about finding another one.
no yeah i could do that.
couldn't you?
but apart from that i hadn't really thought about it really.
well , jonathan don't do that while that's on because it ain't no good doing it!
well yeah get over christmas and then you can start sorting yourself out really.
yeah , yeah i know and i think once the matters on the bungalow and that
mm that's right.
big!
i'm not big.
there's just a lot to think about isn't there?
yeah.
yeah cos tha once christmas is here, that'll soon come won't it?
yeah, eight months then.
it'll fly by now christmas 
yeah.
new year, easter 
ooh can't wait !
yeah.
can we go ?
jonathan goes to soon.
i can't wait till christmas!
not till next september well it'll 
next 
be soon after i get married then won't it?
yep.
yeah.
oh!
i don't want to go in.
and won't you sarah?
i don't want to go!
you get the first week will seem a bit strange but once you get the first week over you're alright then.
oh no!
i'll skip the first week.
you will be won't you?
yeah.
and you're working.
yeah.
hopefully.
yeah.
well yeah, if he can get a job that is!
mm.
how the job situation is these days!
you needn't get the .
he can't a job.
oh!
what does he do then?
well he's a labourer really.
what bi for builders?
sort of classed as a labourer and 
he erm, he didn't have a job for two weeks!
he said he can't get unemploym erm the dole or nothing cos he's self employed!
then there's twelve of us down.
what?
twelve is it?
he can't get any money se so so he can't get erm what do you call it?
social security
social security.
if you've got money in the bank!
well i said that's terrible that our boy should suffer because he's got money in the bank, and saved his money!
yeah.
he's gotta live off his ear off his money ain't he?
well he isn't certainly gonna dwindle 
but why should you have to when you saved
exactly!
saved it 
too right sarah!
for if you want a house or
see they'll maintain that 
yeah that's right!
social security .
i said you're paid the same.
no.
social security is when you haven't got no money and he has got money.
well i ain't got any but they won't give me any!
well that's like when older people when they save for their retirement and that you know 
yeah.
they can't get things cheap like bus passes and all that can they?
no.
well well i think, i, i don't think it pays you to save up er 
no.
for your retirement and so you'll be comfortable off cos you might as well live off your state like everybody else.
yeah.
you might 
as well enjoy your money as you go along, why bother to have any!
they were saying on the television the other day 
why bother!
the new taxes 
well i certainly isn't going to, sarah!
the new tax law thing 
i shall get as much out the system as i can mate!
me me.
well i told you that.
if they go up erm the government now wanna 
help!
bring this new tax, but instead of poll tax and community charge and that it's gonna be like a new erm property tax.
oh yeah, i think i've heard of that.
and er what they're saying that, sort of, you get people, shall we say, older people who
he's 
are retired so they got no income and then perhaps been left the house
oh!
in in a will or something
yeah.
so they have the house and move into house
then they pay a lot 
but they're gonna taxed so heavily that they can't afford to live in it under this new tax!
they've just gotta sell it!
i thought well how what a bloody shame!
terrible isn't it?
mm i mean er why don't they do it on like the square, how big your house is because that way you could i know it's not far when people who live in a great big old house don't have to pay as much cos if this i mean uncle trevor and aunty they've got a massive great house haven't they?
have yeah.
but if this because it's old or something they don't have to pay so much the 
the 
rates
the rates, yeah.
you know?
yeah.
but if you only went on the square foot it don't matter how big it was well that's like, surely that'd be fairer?
that's right it wasn't 
yeah but ah then again why i mean like a lot of people have don't have actual they haven't got money but they they sort of choose to have money tied up in property ,though it don't mean to say you're wealthy just because you've got a big house does it?
if 
no.
you've got no money we haven't got any money but, you know 
doo doo doo doo 
i mean why should i i 
why should you be condemned just because you've put your money into your house?
yeah that's right, i mean some people don't 
alright fair enough they want you to buy your own property but now .
yeah.
oh!
and if you go a spend if you in if you've got a big house and you tend to spend thirty thousand pound on a new car you don't get taxed on that 
phone!
phone geoff!
new car.
shall i pause this?
i thought it was the front doorbell.
shall i stop it?
no, leave it on.
well that's like there's jobs like 
shall i stop it till daddy's back?
your dad and geoff they pay a stamp at turners don't they?
yeah, they do.
they still have to pay a self employed one as well you know?
i didn't know whether your dad knew that?
you still have to pay it back, i said well i don't think you should have to pay it back!
cos you're going there because your own business has not any more!
yeah.
.
well yeah, geoff wouldn't be there if i if his business was running alright!
well i said i don't think that's to e you should pay two stamps myself!
no well there's nothing wrong in pay any.
like bloody !
yeah cor i could i could couldn't you?
i feel like giving him away but i don't know whether i would, but i feel like it.
yeah.
i'm surprised someone hasn't.
which erm relative of 's has died?
dunno who has.
well i reckon that's her mother or his mother.
i don't really know, i haven't heard 
mm 
anything about it.
somebody will find me .
yeah because erm as we come home from work these two sort of big saloon cars, black ones sort of come up, mourning cars i suppose you call them and they stopped at 's and picked a load of people up.
i thought you called a ?
no !
but you mean, no not them jonathan!
oh.
and then as we was coming home from pete's, a chap stopped us and asked us where was so i told him where was he said i'm looking for a little black and white house i said it's right there look!
he was right up to it so i said well i don't know whether you're going round to view the house cos that's on the market aren't they?
here we are 
yeah.
you got the in here?
cos i said erm no i haven't actually, stop cos i said that 
that's what i've come round for!
then.
they got a death in the family today and then he said that's what we've come, we've coming to pick up granddad, so i reckon that is
yeah.
her mother or his.
better have the one who's died i think.
no!
it wasn't her june, was it?
no!
not her?
no it was .
oh well that's 
there was some smart cars round there today.
yeah?
oh .
ooh!
hey?
.
well i said they haven't had the house yet!
that's right.
i know !
i bet that that's pretty as well.
.
no that's him 
you've been in it!
that's him on the phone 
so have i!
he was saying all the sort say at work you know that they they don't know and they start on about er 
you have been a .
you ruin your chances so about three times a week the comes in to arrange my poll tax and all this and they get going you know well why should a bloke that having a big house and he only pays the same rate as them so i said, well it's like this as far i'm concerned i said you know no bloke works perhaps twice as many hours as you do he chooses
haven't you?
yeah yeah.
when i said, i think that's wrong!
yeah.
the only time you don't pay a self-employed stamp is if you your business earns,yo you can actually get away it, if you've lost money on your own business on paper or if you've earned 
well we have!
why have you got it?
yeah tha that's what i'm saying, i ain't got to.
you haven't got to pay it?
no 
what about that last lot?
ah that's , what they've said once you've paid it, you can't get it back, and if you don't pay it they can't insist you pay it.
well you haven't paid it.
no i paid the last one though.
well you can't stop paying it now.
so you haven't gotta pay that one more .
no , i can't afford to.
ooh good!
good good good.
that's it, why should you have to keep 
yeah.
paying for them all year long?
ah but perhaps ken's the same as you then?
cos i shouldn't think he's made any profit.
dunno, well that's the situation.
i think you're allowed you're allowed to make thirty pound a week profit fifteen hundred pound a year, anything over fifteen hundred pound on your business they gotta pay tax.
well you had a loss.
.
god!
so a i said it's a shock 
ken lost 
we didn't know you see, well geoff paid it last year, well he di he di he didn't have to!
my name is jonathan .
so that's like dad said, i mean things 
dad?
are not always
can you pass me the
the people that have left are sort of in the recession and that now, there's all the really big business people and that that have come down to the same level as everybody else.
that's right.
and they're all creating but you know 
yeah.
there's been a lot of people that have been on that level for a long while.
that's right.
yeah we have.
yeah.
yeah.
you know, but now cos all tha all them estate agents that had all the boom and everything didn't they?
yeah.
yeah made a fortune didn't they?
yeah.
well but i mean, brian was saying himself you know he can't remember at least he's says he's been working down london when he hasn't been earning a hundred pound a day you know, it's something, we just accepted it, he said over the years i've been earning a hundred pound a day he says, and that was it you know yo yo just do.
and now he's nowhere earning 
that's it.
nowhere near that amount.
he says he worked like a pansy he said and now he says i go 
mm.
and he says and i'm putting in god knows how many hours, he said and we got a drop to fifty pound a day .
he's halved them wages 
has he?
i said well exactly i said .
is this our book mum?
yeah.
but i mean i i wouldn't even mind earning two hundred a fifty a week.
well no, well i mean like we do i mean i mean but i mean my gross up about three hundred over tony's but i put in many hours right?
yeah.
isn't it about like that 
quarter to five in the morning 
i know.
till quarter five at night and then saturdays as well till dinner time you know?
but they 
yeah.
better that me.
i found some .
but then you want it .
well that's right that is 
they 
it.
so you're gonna get tax back as well, like you was told?
that's it 
gonna get that back so i mean all these little bits 
that are grumbling cos they've come down, but really they've come down to the same level as
well that's right.
everybody else.
yeah.
yeah.
that's right sarah.
they don't 
well brian was telling me 
levels off!
you was .
what's the time?
i'd better go in a minute.
eight o'clo ,eight o'clock.
eight o'clock.
five past!
oh i've got one of them things.
geoffrey 
oh.
wants one, don't you geoffrey?
er no i mean, them over there 
mm mm.
oh but they really get up my nose!just wanna do is phone me up, you know i i sa oh had a row with , don't say anything like about quarter to four time and i said to her, well i'll be quite honest i said er there's sixty pound a week or seventy pound a week i get more than you i said i have never heard a load of moaning pratts in all my life!
i said you overtime you're moaning cos you gotta do, oh yeah we're always 
yeah.
the one's that have gotta i said and as soon as you ain't got no overtime ooh we aren't allowed a lot this week, we're a bloody flat week da and a i said i don't know what to do to keep you happy!
i said if you said to me, geoff, i want all the overtime i can get i can get the overtime i'll go round and i'll try and or if you say to me well i don't want the overtime, i'm quite happy with a flat week then i'll know what i am but i said you change from day to day, one day you wannit, another day you don't!
you 
yeah.
just want the job, to suit you if you wa , if you want to go and pick your kids up from school you'd think that oh why should we do work today, you know, let somebody else do it!
so i said 
right.
well blow that!
i said there's a
you gotta take it when it's there ain't you?
that's right i said, you know, i can't understand you!
i says yo you go out to your flipping eleven pound a week 
mummy !
oh no!
and er he gets a thirty five pound a week child allowance on his for his four kids!
typical innit, though!
that's a about a innit bloody hell!
paying they're paying 
yeah so
well you .
so i er he said er no he said, it's not that he said i don't like people to tell me you've got to do overtime today, he said, i like to be asked!
i said well i'll be quite honest mate, there's two hundred people working in this factory and i said, if you think that e all the charge hands and the supervisors have got to come down and roll up you lot to get the job done i said you turn round and you think if you was in business, whatever it is you like to do, if you're in business and you've got an order and that order's gotta be out by six o'clock tonight and you've gotta grovel to your workers otherwise you'd lose that order, i said what would you say?
down the road mate, i'd get somebody who wants to do the job.
yeah that's right 
i said and that's exactly how they are!
i said they aren't gonna put up with like you!
i said and that's why cos paul said to me, he said, i never hear you moan, i said look you won't hear me moan because it's not that i enjoy the job i hate the job i said i hate the work, and i find it hard work but at the end of the day on a friday, i know that six o'clock in the morning on a friday i can go up to the nationwide anglia, slip my card in there and i know there's gonna be a couple of hundred of quid in there with the 
yeah.
tax paid and everything, and i know it's gonna be in there i said now that to me is worth a lot i ain't gotta worry whether there's gonna be cheque from out on my doormat in the morning or if it's gonna bounce when i put it in so i sa 
.
as far as i'm concerned 
whatever o overtime they sling at me, i'll do not because i feel like doing it but i need to do it there's 
yeah.
my wife and kid at home!
so he said oh oh said his moan and groan so he said well i spoke to blue he said, he's off sick he said and he gets ninety pounds a week for being at home i've been working here all week he said, for a hundred and forty so i'm forty pound a week better off than him!
yes but he's sick!
i said he's not on holiday he's sick!
well forty pound a week's forty pound a week extra 
yeah.
innit?
that's 
so i said 
how much a month.
yeah.
yeah so i said to him 
yeah.
i said but what an attitude to take!
i said you're not working for forty pound a week 
jonathan !
you're working for a hundred 
yeah.
and forty pound a week but 
would you go and check see what the heating's on?
you have to be sick you still get paid 
the temperature's 
i said you're going about it with the wrong attitude!
mm.
a lot of people say i'm bloody lucky to get paid for being at home sick!
and that they've got a job.
yep, i said what are you 
oh 
i said no i was home sick and i in bed like you said i couldn't who's gonna turn round and say well there are geoff there's a hundred quid mate
that's it.
we know you're ill in bed?
i said but you're 
nobody is!
bloody lucky!
i said that'd do you good to be in business for a couple of years, that'd get you sorted out!
they all think that's like he said they think oh stand up in the corridor, that's alright, amy said if you don't if you have a holiday, you don't get no money
absolutely!
well like they're 
he said they don't know half!
that's what i said to ron, i mean i've never known i can't remember the last time i when i used to work for colin for ten years trying to get a holiday out of colin was like trying to get blood!
oh you can't have two weeks at once you know but over there you gotta get rid of your holidays before december, you gotta get rid of them otherwise you lose them.
take them, you've got to get rid of them!
mm.
in the end i couldn't get rid of them, i had two days off when i was ill and i had as holidays to ge to get them sort of settled up you know.
to get what?
that's like this woman at work 
to get .
she's a teacher and i think she thinks that teachers are the only ones that work!
yeah.
oh bloody hell!
and i said something 
cor!
to her like erm
oh yeah .
yeah.
erm, what did i say?
something about oh what did i say?
she's a funny woman anyway, i said something like 
they are peculiar breed!
i should think i should think you it's nice to have the six weeks ahead of us and she said well it's not a holiday!
i thought well i wouldn't mind 
ooh no!
six weeks of not having to get up and you gotta go.
no, not going into the shop at least, yeah.
cor!
she said she said for the first week you unwind, i thought if we have a weeks holiday that means that the time you unwind you're back to work again!
you're back to work .
that's right.
she said and then i have two weeks erm homework to mark and then we have a weeks holiday i thought well that's two weeks
yeah.
holiday 
cor!
really.
that's it.
she said and then the next week you're preparing to go back!
well why can't she do that two weeks marking in that first week she needs to unwind?
yeah.
and then have a
and yet another client of mine who's a teacher, she said oh yeah she said it's lovely, she said i suppose i ought to do the marking and all that at the beginning she said but i leave it, she said, and i sometimes do it in the last week.
yeah.
i thought to myself that's two different
yeah.
attitudes really.
yeah.
yeah 
yeah.
isn't it?
no well i 
all they seem to do to me is drink coffee!
that's right.
and then you have a we sorry, i'm sorry i can't do it that week, i've got a weeks holiday.
what again?
i think you have six weeks in the summer, we only get four all year!
yeah well and think about all the other weeks he gets,half term erm
and weekends.
yeah.
get all weekend don't you?
sometimes we get what they call baker days.
yeah.
you know, so they don't do too badly they do quite well really.
yeah.
.
ah i dunno.
but people in a way, make you sick really don't they?
yeah.
they never
they all sort of 
always bloody moaning!
and they're all
aren't they?
ready to ta , that's what i said to him you're always ready to take out hand outs, what ever's there to be handed out, you know.
yeah.
cos that really got up, up my back when the , i mean tho ain't a ba , bad bunch of old boys but i normally go down but they they clear and once we've done our work before dinner break they all clear off and i go down to the and then i sort of walk back more or less behind them you know, to the break like and as i go past the club, i go and wash my hands, they go straight in, i go and wash my hands and i walk past the and er we should go to dinner at quarter to twelve and i go past, it's one minute past quarter to twelve so cos when we go in there you see quarter past twelve due to go back i always give them two or three minutes and i say that's it, that's , ah we was late coming in, i said no you weren't!
we was i said look i can read a bloody clock as well you can, i said i wa walking behind you down the , you went in the canteen and when i went past it was one minute past quarter to!
so i said you know, the one minute past quarter to and there's a sort of quietly you know but then you know, just have to grab at
yeah.
they get excitement out of taking two extra minutes 
give them an, inch and they want a yard 
i think oh my god!
you know, i, it's so petty that!
that's like sarah at work, i mean she leaves at twenty past five, if she thinks that, she'll leave at ten past five i mean she thinks you're stupid because she don't always go but even when she's not going she 
yeah.
still goes at twenty past five so why don't she go at six when we do?
yeah.
you know.
yeah.
and she said she even 
taking her home sarah!
i told her i wouldn't.
yeah cos she used to get me t , and then she rang me up one day when i was and said dad erm dad can't bring me round there cos the car's not working, can you come and pick me up?
yeah .
she said i'll give you some petrol money, i said i'm not bothered about petrol money, i said it's the fact that i've gotta come round to pick you up, i said i'm not a taxi!
yeah.
and then i was late, when i got round there i thought well she'll at least be waiting at the top of the drive, if not at the top of the road.
yeah.
she weren't there, i had to go round the house knocking on her door and oh 
yeah.
i was mad!
yeah.
well yeah you don't mind giving anybody a lift
no.
if they make their way to you.
yeah and she used to be hammering on the door, twenty past five you know yeah 
but mrs the other day it was something like two o'clock, mrs said to her, she went to lunch one till two mrs oh have you had your lunch?
she said no, are you off lunch yet?
she said not until five past, mrs said you can get up them stairs, she said you go at ten minutes early every day!
she said i'm sure you're gonna quibble about five minutes lunch hour!
oh she actually told her then?
yeah but bu oh she's just !
yeah.
idle!
yeah.
i said to mrs , she said i don't know she's a funny girl, i said i don't think she's funny i think she's idle!
yeah.
i thought, why should we work to pay her wages?
yeah.
yeah.
and she don't do nothing!
yeah.
yeah does she do any hairdressing yet or?
a little bit but she really winds me up she does.
yeah that's how i 
yeah.
i !
and then she said to me mrs gives us erm sometimes an extra ten pound, she gets a y t s allowance 
yeah.
and she ooh i don't know i'm gonna have to something to her cos some weeks i get it and some weeks i don't, i said you ought to think yourself lucky you get an extra ten pound, i said, we don't!
i said we bring them, we're earning the money cos she don't earn her own money does she 
no.
just shampooing.
no.
no.
she said i want to know whether i'm gonna get it regular or not!
i said think yourself lucky you get any extra at all!
mm yeah .
and then she said about her erm y t s, oh i haven't got my bus money back yet i only get an allowance!
i said well i never used to get any anyway, and i said i used earn less than you!
yeah.
you know she cor!
mm.
i mean 
hand outs every time!
but they don't know half do they?
that family has more handouts than anybody i know!
and the, what is the the thing what annoys me is they're working!
mm.
yeah.
that is what annoys about it or fair enough if they haven't got any money they get these handouts but when they're working and they still get them that's when i think it's wrong!
i mean we're the mugs aren't we really?
well course we are!
that's right.
my mo , i think my motto's gonna be, see if you can't beat them, join them!
yeah.
yeah.
but that's exactly the same me and ady having this bungalow built, i mean some people been ever so funny.
yeah.
wonder why .
why should you and
yeah.
yeah.
oh that's alright 
been funny?
for you, i said we worked you know, we've not been given anything, everything 
yeah.
we've got we've worked for.
yeah.
i mean they get ma , they know for six months, they get married with all the gear, the next year they got a baby, fair enough, that's up to them.
and then 
and then they get divorced!
you know, i mean we haven't i ain't got a new car or anything, i've had that 
yeah.
years and
yeah.
yeah.
people do what you know, everybody's different what they do with their money 
yeah.
aren't they?
so they think 
yeah.
just because we saved for that that you know 
well you saved hard for it, so then why shouldn't you have it?
that's what 
i know.
you want to do with your money
i said that to 
that's up to you.
you know got he he's quite, he's having it built over here.
he's important 
what?
sarah!
oh.
no kidding you, his is your dad's bungalow, and it's a house!
about as big as your dad's bungalow!
that's painting the front in.
oh!
if you look round here cos he's right 
opposite us.
it's a concrete slab 
yeah.
it don't look any 
he put 
at all do they?
no.
well he's
it is bloody huge, he's had the fireman round there!
i said to geoff when you get your footings in they do you think to yourself, cor that ain't gonna be very big!
you do yeah.
but as soon as it builds up, you see how big it's gonna be so i said well that's gonna be like erm buckingham palace i should think!
but they haven't a concrete slab!
cos he said it's gonna be as big as the other house.
the old house.
and do you know he's getting all 
i wonder how they're doing it?
well he thinks he's gonna get his tiles for nothing isn't he, geoff?
yeah, he said i got a thousand pound well i'll ring around, he said i got a thousand o off my, i saved a thousand pounds on my roof he said i thought bloody hell, how much cost costing him !
no, but he's, he went to the ideal 
but he 
homes exhibition
oh yeah.
and course they're doing this new tiles.
they bought out, this company have bought out a new tile and he said they're looking for a sort of nice house to have as a sort of a show house and then he thinks he'll get them for nothing.
cor must be really !
mind you, i mean when we were choosing our bricks he said ooh erm he gave number and that, i mean i know he's not too bad is he when you want
oh .
he can help them ooh you want to ring him a my bricks should of cost what did he say?
four hundred or four hundred and forty or something erm and on, i can't remember what he said he was getting them for i 
two hundred and thirty?
come from belgium?
probably yes.
yeah.
he told me that.
but geoff said there aren't any bricks that are that much money anyway!
so i don't know whether he's right or not.
no.
cos we 
but we 
rang them up and he was dearer than all the blooming builders merchants!
yeah.
at least kevin was saying.
cos you see we was lucky how we got our bricks didn't we?
weren't 
yeah.
we geoff?
i .
well how did you get to know about them?
i sold him the car didn't i?
that was it.
yeah geoff sold him the car
sold him a couple of cars
and he said well he'd 
oh.
got a load of brick, where did he have them 
he had it , he got caught by he got er
there's like a big pallet all surrounded and he got a big pond down the bottom it's erm near grimston common
oh yeah.
common and he lived at grimston and er he got this plot and er what was right next door to it was a sort of real big old li like a french chateau and he wanted a big ge red brick georgian house, a real big one, sort of sitting at the back of this plot that the owner 
oh yeah.
had put down the end.
anyway he got all his bricks and everything and er he got all his ideas what he wanted and then they turned round and said no, we're not gonna let you build down there.
so we bought his bricks.
so he's got all his bricks up virtually i think he said, but i ain't worried about it cos i'll get rid of them somewhere and i helped him out, i sold this car and, and told him what i was doing and he come i've just the thing for you, just cos was having bricks like your dad's, the sand grain sort of brick, you know.
oh yeah.
ooh he said i've got just the for you, he said,he said .
and that's how we got them.
and i di in the end they the same for them, but 
he and geoff went over there and loaded them on the trailer .
we would of done it by ourself sorted out.
yeah we do a we went over there and loaded them all on and then got a puncture in the trailer,!
put them on a didn't they, then load them load 
yeah.
them on yeah.
used be able to sit in the car would be go up the back don't they?
yeah.
and i used to load the boot up and bring them and load home like in the boot of my car my sales manager said to me the other day, how the hell did you get bright red dust in your boot?
i dunno!
there's all like red brick dust in your boot!
oh no!
geoff was getting the bricks.
and i had avenger estate, and i done the same with that and i got away with it for ages and i what you want a do, i know what you wanna do he erm, i mean that's that's really sort of pushing it over the top but he got a great big sheet of polythene, he went down to ready mix and had a load of ready mix in the back of this avenger estate, brand new he'd only just got it!
and course 
well we didn't do that but
and then on top of that he took the battery off pat's car and it fell over in the front so all the acid burnt the carpet!
come back dinner time and they were saying well no you see you can't just a borrow a car to go to dinner in, yeah that'll be alright man and i hadn't even been in it since roy bought it back!
absolutely went spare you know !
sent memos all round, you know and he called me in the office that day, to say i'm really disappointed in you, i said, what do you mean?
he said well i give you that avenger estate he said cos i thought you were building your house, that'll be handy for you you know yeah you did and you let me down badly!
so i thought now what do i say, do i drop myself in it or do i say well that wasn't , that was roy, i said well you know i said i must admit i said i i'm sorry so erm then roy said well that battery he said was me he said i, i borrowed geoff's car again and look the battery fell over in it so i'm gonna help him er then i sa , a piece of that bloody great went across our french doors and this, there's a went across 
cor!
there and i went down to the at and he said we got your lintel in mate, do you want to take it?
so i said yeah i can do so he said bring your van down, so i never said nothing so bob said, got any like your dad had
oh yeah.
it's for our new one again you see so i rolled the front seat down put my brief case on the front seat so he says, where's your van then mate?
i said it's here!
no, where is it?
i said that is it!
yo you can't put it in that he said, it's brand new!
that'll be alright so cos he slid his my brief case and er i got all the way home, no problem at all, i'd got newspaper under the back, so it didn't scratch the back when i come to come down mill road this lorry's go , i mean i got the tail gate up and er i sort of looked in the mirror, i thought oh my goodness my tail gate, i could hear it so and i braked a bit sharp and that slid down and scratched along the dash board!
oh dear!
trying to get it out , sort of plastic dash went creeeh!
cor!
this lintel!
that went right across there but well i suppose .
well i imagine there is.
yeah.
mum?
i wanna play a game.
alright then i'm sorry that's not in there.
mum!
well it don't matter we'll probably be able something out the sale anyway.
yeah you can get it, yeah.
mum,
yeah that's right.
take up.
what?
er 
no.
.
oh oh didn't look.
anyway i'd better go, i'll see, well if i don't see you before i'll see you next wednesday 
for my birthday.
then won't i?
yep, so what time is it, half past six is it, or do you want me quarter past six was it, or half six, what time do you want me?
is quarter past six too early?
no, i'm home till quarter past eight.
is that alright?
yeah.
that'll be better for me really if you don't mind.
yeah, i'll come up to you then.
yeah alright thanks a lot.
yep.
thanks then.
yeah, alright then mate .
because i don't know whether you can 
bye!
you can turn that off now jonathan.
would you spend 
pardon?
a hundred and ninety nine pound on me on my birthday?
certainly not!
no i didn't think you would !
no i knew you wouldn't!
would you eighty nine?
can't afford that sort of money jonathan.
no cos it's just a computer game.
i really can't.
eighty nine pound!
oh .
i think that's the something for you, but dad's struggling i really am struggling!
oh i'll find something cheaper oh!
that cos you know what american was?
no.
you know julian's one?
yeah.
yeah well it isn't that one, it's i'll find it and i'll read it out to you julian's one is two hundred and thirty four ninety nine
yeah.
because it's got gold wheels right it's got a better suspension.
jonathan you, have you turned that tape off?
oh!
well turn it off now if you wanna watch in fifteen minutes.
have you got all your school things ready?
yeah.
you got your trousers all muddled up.
oh!
why do you always have to tell me!
well it's not, very nice going to school with .
right every time we have school's .
your flys are undone!
hi!ha!
ask him to have his undone then!
yeah and he's always .
is he?
mm yeah.
and you don't play in blooming class will you?
no i won't.
yuk!
erm what was i gonna say?
why don't you put your belt on them trousers?
no, leave them like that!
go and get your coat then.
okay, i'll be back in a minute!
do you have to go so early?
yeah.
well why do you go so early?
i wanna meet my mates.
oh.
well a but andrew likes to be going early.
andrew who?
andrew.
andrew ?
.
why does he like going early?
he just wants to, don't he!
oh do your coat up.
don't throw away!
don't forget your bike tonight.
i'll just pick it up.
i wondered if you'd help me out in the garden, perhaps like if it's still nice when you come home from school?
yeah.
clear some of the leaves up.
if it's bright enough.
yeah if it's nice.
i work till four o'clock, and then and then it'll be getting dark won't it?
yeah yeah that's right.
packet and raise your hand there.
pardon?
do i have to be home by five?
you're not going today, you're going tomorrow.
oh yeah i am.
yeah i'll meet you up there look, look at her look, look who's looking in the window!
can i let her in?
yeah go and let her in.
oh .
hurry up !
come here you are 
come on in!
good girl!
alright then off are you?
hey mummy you know when you used to go to toilet in the middle of a conversation.
yeah.
yeah i know how you do that.
pause it.
yeah, do you know pause it?
yeah.
so do i.
yeah.
have you ever paused it yet?
no,because i'm frightened o i might i haven't done that.
can i try?
no not now, you can perhaps try today.
yeah get in the middle of mu i 
say bye to her.
bye pussy, let me say goodbye.
you know what she wants.
her breakfast.
yeah and guess who hasn't been fed either!
ahhh!
ginge.
poor little ginge.
alright then do you want to go then?
yeah just kiss goodbye bye!
bye bye be a good boy won't 
i didn't spoil the tape today!
i don't want to !
oh yeah i can do bye then!
.
yeah bye !
bye !
morning!
twenty please, and have you got a birthday card for mother please?
ooh!
isn't it cold!
grandma's back in the wrong place!
ooh i better have a grandma as well please?
oh crumbs yeah!
ooh!
ooh and i want a packet of sage and onion stuffing, whereabouts is that?
anywhere here?
it's up the top there in the yellow packet next to the paxo breadcrumbs, up the top shelf.
yeah oh yeah ooh god i'm knocking all the shop down!
you got some good slippers on!
hey?
oh!
there's always something isn't there?
well yeah.
is rene here today?
yeah.
oh that's nice with the little bunny rabbits on that's a nice one, the little bunnies innit?
yeah.
oh shall gi and one for jonathan erm nan
that one.
oh those two will be alright.
those two?
yeah lovely thank you and do you have stockings?
i've got so i've got some here.
i'll just have a look
they're not erm
pop socks
that's one size stockings there's not much left in the way of them now because most people you know don't wear stockings, these are pop 
well 
socks and tights.
tights
and that i think they're all tights there.
are they all tights?
yeah apart from that one pair that you got in the, that you had there.
yeah that's not really the right colour for her erm what else can i think of?
have you tried this v p sherry?
no.
well she drinks sherry you see i thought well is that a sweet sherry?
i don't know 
er 
what's it got on it, it's medium isn't it?
it's cream isn't it?
cream sherry, that should be fairly shouldn't it?
well yeah it should be.
yeah i'll have that then well the lovely thanks very much.
did 's grandma die or something?
mm?
's 
yeah.
up the road.
i think last 
oh.
week.
oh the funeral was yesterday weren't it?
yeah.
yeah where was she buried down here then?
cos she lived do 
she lived no she was in marshlands nursing home.
oh was she?
oh i didn't know.
yeah she'd been in there about seven or eight months i think.
oh.
that's why they erm the funeral was actually from carole's.
yeah i se well i happened to be coming home from school cos i thought there was a the hearse coming and then i watched two mourning cars two flashy great big things!
mm.
i thought crumbs i bet that cost a lot!
they do don't they?
i thought how the other half live!
i must be doing something wrong!
suppose sometimes in those circumstances, i know i mean my mum and dad died two years ago it was a thousand pound!
yeah it must be it's not cheap 
well 
to die is it !
so six months later terry's mother died it was a thousand pound gone up!
crumbs!
it had gone up in that time.
don't worry about that val i'll do it when i get home.
one of those cars terry's mother only had two.
yeah.
but he didn't have the he he had the hearse and one car we had the hearse plus three more cars.
did you really.
and cost us a thousand pound.
yeah.
about five hundred pound those three cars.
was it really?
cor!
and his coffin was draped with the union jack.
was it?
was he erm in the
he was into a lots of things, he was er in the sea scouts, he was the district commissioner of the scouts.
oh he's all sorts of things then?
yeah.
yeah.
he's also done a lot of things with his 
yeah.
so i mean they 
yeah.
sent from london, from the heather's scouts organisation set a wreath that was , it stood up 
really?
something to stand it up to it was that heavy, it was the scout's , it was beautiful!
oh lovely.
alright?
oh hello, i haven't seen you for ages!
ah!
right, that's five fifty seven that lot altogether.
hold on, do you want the fifty seven if i've got it?
if you've got it yeah.
yeah, i've got it five six seven.
right lovely thank you ah i suppose i better be off to work.
right.
yeah i don't wanna take a bottle of sherry round, the school will think i'm gonna be on the booze all afternoon do won't they!
something to talk about.
pardon?
i say that'll give them something to talk about.
well yeah.
while they're talking about me they're leaving someone else alone aren't they?
ya.
not that i'm bothered what they say about me.
that's right.
right.
thanks a lot.
ta ta.
cheerio!
bye bye.
yeah tara val oh!
that's alright, just leave it.
you don't mind me doing this do you?
what?no.
that's alright is it?
no 
alright then.
it's that alright.
i switch it off now before i go out then !
ooh you weren't!
oh i did i thought 
i fancy that.
have you seen what's across there?
what he's got in his back yard?
no well i ain't do you want anything on there?
oh but one of these isn't gonna be ready for christmas.
you know what he's got geese for don't you?
what.
they reckon you could touch their beaks !
oh yeah, yeah 's have got them that was, that funeral was at 's that was her grandma i reckon that's 
oh was it?
why she hasn't been to school she was in erm the .
oh.
also got a bottle of sherry in here, i th people think i'm going on the booze !
i bo just bought one up the shop for geoff's mums birthday well she's now 
yeah.
starting to have a glass of sherry every night, well i thought well
why not!
if she can get a few bottles 
mm mm/ 
that's saves her paying for it herself don't it?
and i got her a box of black magic so that's her birthday present sorted out so she can eat and drink then can't she!
well she don't want ornaments and things like that, does she at her age?
they got so many!
i don't know what to buy my dad for christmas but if i 
ooh no 
buy him a bottle of baileys he 
does he like that?
loves baileys yeah.
yeah.
well i mean
well yeah he hasn't gotta buy 
you don't want 
well no.
stuff he, you know.
see my dad likes videos and things like that but he wa he, i know he likes aftershave, he likes that old spice and that so i thought well i'll get him something like that or i thought i sort of saw cos i'm going shopping saturday, i'm trying to get it all saturday if i can.
i don't blame you.
so i thought well if i can sort of get think to myself a rough idea before i go jonathan's going to geoff's mums cos geoff's gotta work all day saturday you see?
yeah you said that.
well that's something to do with they're working this saturday and then they break up a bit earlier or something.
oh i see, yeah.
something like that, so i said well that's a good job i'm going this saturday innit really?
yeah.
ooh!
it's a bit nippy isn't it?
i'm frozen!
i think 
mrs won't be there.
no, she's gone on a trip, simon called round he just dropped mother off.
oh yeah she was going with you mum isn't she?
yeah 
who has she got, does she know?
she doesn't know, i don't suppose she'll know till she got there will she?
no probably not, no course she wouldn't i think jonathan's with mrs .
gone has she?
oh yeah, she's going tomorrow no tomorrow, they go don't though.
tomorrow 
ooh!
ooh !
half past ten isn't it?
what this morning?
yes my mother in law.
ooh!
she's gonna be there tonight i thought well i always could just well i think i might come over if you've gotta be there.
oh!
she isn't bringing the boyfriend is she?
she's not, she 
no she wouldn't would she?
she wouldn't!
no.
oh perhaps she's gonna try and 
she might want to stay i don't know.
sort of you know, sort of get peace with you again ooh!
without anything almost wished she hadn't of come 
oh!
we went down this park cos we wanted to 
yeah.
and when we walked in she's got her brother and her boyfriend.
oh!
and they always go on a wednesday, they never go on a thursday.
oh!
i mean that's why we went on a thursday and they'd changed their as a chap that seems very strange to me!
yeah.
because she knows we go once every you know every other thursday at least.
perhaps she was frightened that she'd gotta 
yeah 
see you on your own.
says she's coming over so what's
oh!
you never know!
ooh you ha wait and see is graham at work today?
no, but, well it tuesday is his day off but he's got late till eleven this morning.
oh that's alright.
and this afternoon, don't know whether to have an exploratory operation on knee in huntingdon
oh yeah!
yesterday and they sent him home last week and he's on crutches at the moment.
oh.
so graham has gone round 
morning!
hello bill be home, it'll be five.
yeah.
perhaps his work has so
has it?
yep.
i think that's how it goes, you see, this is geoff's busy time.
chris said that always like that christmas time because they have the pay talks in january and they always cut them back 
do they?
pay talks yeah.
oh!
to make them think there's not a lot of work and that you know?
oh yeah yeah 
so he said yes you know, they say well if you want to be paid it means people'll have to be sacked and all this, well you know!
well yeah that's how they go don't they, yeah.
that's right.
ooh!
i'm in the infant end today aren't i?
yeah well i me and margaret should be in the hall but i think they've assumed that there will be less
can go in the hall can't they?
they can all go in the hall and then that'll leave me free to go out first like i should do.
well that's right yeah.
i was told i should lend that classroom to them i can't ge really get out first and that should be my turn to be out first today.
yeah cos i definitely shan't be out first shall i?
no.
no and if not that'll be margaret out first, out of the hall, won't it?
yeah.
i mean she'll be out two days on the trot.
yeah and that's not fair, and that's cold today isn't it?
no and you see it's just them two i think they could put him sort of like in the hall and if there's a 
yeah.
he 
ask eric yeah yeah cos there won't be that many will there?
well i wouldn't of thought so, the whole class gonna be missing.
ooh!
so really that'd be the best idea but 
yeah do you know my washing was virtually dry when i went home yesterday.
mine got quite dry finished the ki the kids wet on the radiator.
i ju i 
but my towels were dry enough to iron.
yeah my flannelette sheets were virtually dry just 
yeah.
popped them on the radiator for ten minutes and i i well i ironed them i usually do my bits 
well i left it i thought i've just gotta sit down had a they got daisy.
oh yeah.
they do look brown , well!
she wanted to play and she wanted to colour and oh oh 
oh she wanted to do all sorts did she?
oh then erm said i love my granddad i said what about your grandma?
no!
i said not oh alright she says, a little bit!
she likes her granddad does she?
yeah i said do you love jack?
no, she said because he doesn't love me!
oh !
god she didn't know!
she goes i love my friend over there, that was george.
oh yeah !
friend.
how old is she now?
she'll be four in february.
ooh so when would she go to school?
next september i would think 
ooooh!
could of been
yeah.
might take her september i don't know.
well they will do, cos they do here don't they?
cos she's doing mornings at nursery now nine till half past eleven.
and does she like it?
loves it, yeah!
yeah she's that type of little girl, ain't she?
yeah.
she's a, sort of outgoing isn't she?
well i said it'll soon be christmas she said yes not quite four weeks she said.
ha!
i 
what she want for christmas, did she say?
a doll that's got long hair and cries.
oh!
well julie went and got it the other day that's why fetched her out, to get their presents.
oh.
so dad collected her out of nursery and then julie picked her up when jack come out of school.
so what does jack want?
well i want a train set and i think one of .
oh!
and they want walkie talkie things
oh yeah jonathan used t 
out of them.
yeah.
she wants this doll, well julie got it yesterday and said i phoned up, she said you've gotta listen to this she said i've just put a battery in when you want to hear it cry .
does it?
the only way you can stop it is putting a dummy in it's mouth!
and 
oh she'll like that then won't it?
so
jonathan wants this erm this lego set that's got well i have got it actually and it's a big lorry
yeah.
with a helicopter and all that on the all on 
oh!
the back i says 
so she's colouring yesterday she kept have you got a handkerchief?
in my pocket she said, in a minute!
is she still as blonde as ever?
yes yeah ever so blonde.
yeah.
that kept it kept getting in her eyes, i said i'll fetch it over and brought it back, put them slides in face no she said, shaun'll do it!
oh i was all you know 
does he make a lot of fuss of her then?
well not ever such a lot and then 
she just took to him.
and then she said i'll go to the toilet she says i can go by myself she says!
you're not coming in!
so i had to stand outside the door
oh.
good job the bolt well the bolts up 
yeah.
tight, always has done 
well that's good.
you know and then she come out, i said i'll tuck you no she said, shaun will!
ah ho!
so i thought
so shaun's well in favour so he could look after her, i think she'd stay with him.
oh, some of the older ones down the infant end again jonathan went last week so i said he 
oh what a common little cow!
oh no!
i thought he weren't gonna bring them sue?
he weren't all over the sixth form i've not got a to live with!
so she said i dunno so i said is it awkward to talk?
she said yeah i said alright then so whether they'd got someone there then i don't know.
you don't know do you?
margaret's on this tape this time.
yeah?
ooh i don't how old margaret is fifty two i think.
ooh bloody hell!
what?
nice little bump there.
where?
oh yeah !
it seemed quiet in school today, didn't seem so many children, is there?
yeah.
i told you about mr wife didn't i?
yeah.
very poorly!
yeah.
very poorly!
that's a shame really innit?
yeah.
ladies, l a d i e s innit?
mm rurgh!
arrived, a doubler i v e d 
i v e d.
yeah.
that bloody erm er what do you call it? er personnel woman was there today.
well i don't know whether nick went today cos i see his car.
i thought he said he'd gotta go somewhere?
oh what a shame!
yeah she was, she was there eight o'clock.
oh!
what's the time geoff?
three thirty innit?
yeah.
am or pm or is that?
am.
well he'll perhaps get an interview fairly quick won't he, if they want people?
ooh i don't know.
cor hey you, we're swearing a lot on that was they doing that for my benefit do you think?
no, they always swear like that!
ah you never heard nothing have you!
cor blimey i wouldn't want to be there!
f this, f that!
oh yeah.
what's the date today?
fourth.
oh yeah it's always like that.
cor i wouldn't like working with that lot then!
mm.
men tend to talk like that don't they?
they didn't .
no well that wasn't a office in the office.
do you go in there then?
i can stay in there they was sitting on the bleeding !
so was sally.
cos that australian said er get many more ruddy red ants in here he said, we'll need to start chipping in for the coffee!
i said and if when he come in he goes i suppose, they don't want to stay in do they?
well blow me!
so he said er
well you were right in checking it, cos you sold her escort didn't you?
well yeah but i mean i shall have 
well you'll have to tell him, you've done it.
well i ain't done it yet, i've only erm
why can't they do anything till february?
well no i'll tell you later june.
oh alright then er 
er 
you know we're going to your mum's tonight?
yes.
are we?
and you know what i wanted, some fairly liquid or they've gotta go up and get it.
yeah.
oh we can go up to that fina garage i should think they have it.
and show dad what i bought you and him.
right geoff.
have a look.
when i went to bound zoo i bought, this pencil, that's twenty five p 
you didn't go to bound zoo 
not bound zoo er
cambridge.
fitch william museum.
yeah.
and i bought that, that was twenty five
yeah.
that, was twenty, one pound 
what is it?
fifty five it's a laser box the dragons light up in different colours, look see there's nothing 
oy ey yeah.
inside it and then for you and mum i bought a little something, it was one pound forty.
oh, a duck.
yes.
mm.
ah i bought that 
where was that from then?
fitch william museum.
oh.
all of that was 
so look
i know it's really
i put them 
yeah.
with my other little ducks.
yeah erm ernie's quite a nice old boy.
he was very pleasant on the phone, very pleasant.
yeah.
well we were talking about mating.
mm.
oh.
erm
cor it was ever so good at that museum cor it was ever so tall though!
they got them wash house!
yeah 
cos you know the wheat house has got five big poles
yeah.
well so has this!
yeah i know what you mean.
with a load to spare!
yeah.
right, and you go inside, it's got two floors each about floors about as tall as our house!
you 
yeah.
i know.
not all about that, it was .
one night .
they got a lot about egyptians though they got egyptians
they ain't got a mask or anything like tutenkhamen has, have they?
no there was only one real mask.
oh well that's i've seen jimmy.
when do you see him?
in the .
what?
half past eleven just now literally just now and er and he basically he don't know about what he's on about.
oh no!
nope, he don't know erm what he's saying is
a lovely little man weren't he?
that blokes that's erm dro been rigging it who he does the things for.
why?
well, because he said for obvious reasons, he said er i didn't want my name and address mentioned.
isn't mentioned in the papers.
now he's gonna wish we'd tell him so he said erm
well what has he done with it then?
oh it was genuinely gone quite genuine, he said you now, he had a , that we know about but it had genuine 
cor , it didn't do that!
well there are you don't go near them.
well we'll have to get our own then won't we?
so he said choice because it was his property they contacted him but he said what he's done is though right there isn't anywhere near that amount!
he said we're talking about eighty or ninety
we're short on twenty two.
we could we can, ah no no in terms of money he's talking about four or five thousand maximum.
well 
where did you get the twenty two from then?
cos he told me there's three hundred gone.
well jimmy ought to tell her
well you know what he's trying to do, he's trying up the claim so when back, he's still gonna get the amount that he wants so he said t to jim something about, he isn't paying the insurance i said you're joking!
he said i've insured it he said but i ain't paying as well he said!
if you're getting all the money he said, you can pay the premium!
so erm they're sort of having a few words at the moment.
yeah well that don't help with getting your money though does it?
no and what's happened is, he's been up the bank and er the thing has
saved his money.
and the thingo's gobbled up his card as he said, well if it hasn't gobbled your card then no problem.
if it has
there's a problem.
we'll have to re-issue another one which could take sort of, you know, this time of year it's over a week so he said well it definitely has.
did he say, i'm desperate for my money!
yeah so he said well what do erm and he said the woman up there didn't really ask what had happened!
it was a t s.
why did it gobble his card up then?
well because a t s had gone straight to the bailiff and the courts to freeze his account.
ooh my god!
mm because his account was frozen as soon as he put his card in it took it in!
oh!
so he said, can i get a new card?
could you have that done to you then?
no.
you couldn't have that done to you?
oh sorry, i thought you said did i have it done.
well no cos i ain't got one of them sort of cards have i?
his was like sort of a bank credit card but bank said he put the cheque card in and that was only a fifty quid thing anyway.
but he 
alright.
could draw it up to a a thousand pounds on that card i mean 
and you said he's only just paid it, well 
that's what he said, if i'd known what i know now, he said i wouldn't of paid it!
he says i'd better go and check the money so he said erm but what he couldn't understand was they wrote to him and said that they haven't paid the cheques but they didn't say anything about freezing his account!
well they should by law, surely!
well dunno.
so he said erm i said to the woman i went to the court this morning so he said when you explain to me he said i've got money in my pockets cos i borrowed it from dad tha he said i owed sixty two pound so he said i said to the woman in the court how can i pay this the sixty two pounds when you've frozen my account?
she said, that's your problem!
he said well it isn't cos it's your problem so she said, no i'm sorry, she said, you know it's one of those things!
he said well actually i have got the money because i borrowed it.
so he paid it?
well yeah but he said without this card he can't get no money, cos he's used what money he had to pay off the card.
i don't feel like going up 
thingamy tonight do you?
i do.
no.
but we ought to.
oh!
well you're only going to grandma's.
going to grandma's, but mum was going up to b and q.
oh never heard of that.
he thought you meant going to aunty hilda's.
mm.
mm.
well i'm gonna wash 
alright.
up when i get back i suppose.
hey dad!
doing it.
well i can't wash up, i ain't got no fairy liquid.
oh i see what you mean, yeah.
you know in the erm ooh the london museum?
yep.
the ceiling's just cracked, the painting.
well you just can't do nothing!
the ceiling's just painted innit?
yeah.
yeah well then this has got all glass domes it's got little patterns and they're three d and coming out!
mm.
and the best room is not the egyptian it's the erm and armour things
you loved that did you?
yeah the spear the blokes holding his other horse and it reaches right to the ceiling!
cor!
about a bit taller than this house.
oh i used to like making things like that cos he makes things for the london museum.
what did?
mm he did.
ooh it's for ages!
they ain't very big!
no they had a van didn't they?
people..
yeah well he only used to make miniatures he makes them .
does he?
he did promise 
well 
he'd bring some down .
talking of miniatures my god!
they gave old mate some stick this morning!
cos at peterborough football club beat beat liverpool last night.
oh i bet 
yeah.
they did.
got in the first division.
did they?
and they went and put a poky little old football club in won this well of course they everybody!
he stuck hi and he get that wound up towards the end i felt sorry for the poor little soul!
e every person went past they go alright peterborough!
liverpool .
is he a liverpool supporter then?
mm.
so course
who beat them?
peterborough.
peterborough!
my god!
oh, brilliant!
one nil.
one nil!
mm.
ah!!
so er he sat there tea break
ooh.
and you didn't mean to do it cliff meant to mess about and make out he's gonna knock his coat over like that
and he did.
yeah, and it went all over the table!
well he jumped up, cor he went learing into him!
cliff said, i'll buy you another one, no i don't want another one!
don't wannit, no!
cor he was in a hell of a mood!
what just cos liverpool didn't win?
well no, cos everybody wind him up.
oh why do they do that to him?
i don't 
cos he said 
know.
it's like kevin innit?
and mum always 
i suppose it is, that's like that.
.
but he 
yeah.
they used to tease him when he first come.
yeah.
cos when he was little in the infants he's ever so tiny weren't he?
but a don't matter how big they are
he has a go at them.
oh he does!
terrible!
what if they were small like him?
well he'd kill them .
he's really nice jonathan.
yeah, yeah i mean cos ivan says to me, he says, he makes me laugh he said, cos he don't back off does he?
i said no he don't.
ooh are there any strawberries in that?
that is strawberry.
it's
you like yoghurts don't you?
yeah.
mind cos it's all down
it's strawberry syrup.
ooh it's nice!
strawberries in syrup dad would like strawberries.
yeah.
you ever tried a little bit of that?
i don't like it.
you'd like this one.
no.
gosh , you know it tastes crea , don't taste like yoghurt.
no.
it like
why?
go on 
try a tiny bit out the corner.
no, no i don't 
go 
like no 
no dad don't want it 
it might make him feel sick.
well when you finish your tea, just have a tiny bit.
no i really don't want to mate, i really don't want to you enjoy it.
cor look at that one!
dad was gonna ring you up at eight o'clock before you went to school and say 
what for?
have a nice day and 
yeah.
someone was on the phone.
ahh!
yeah i sorted out all my ten p ready to go and they were there.
ahh!
ooh and that girl who left, what was supposed to go 
oh i didn't leave till ten past, did i?
come in today 
no.
she come in today.
oh!
why's that?
come into work i think it's assumed she'd left but she didn't leave, she di she had enough of it so she had a couple of days off come in this morning and er i said to steven, no idea what the situation was.
oh!
he said yo it's terrible in here he said, it really is, he said i've never known such catty in all my life!
what is catty then?
well right old bitches they are!
well they come from the right area, don't they?
yeah.
let's face it.
that's right.
you can't get any worse than that can you?
no cos whenever we go in there they're always moaning if cliff starts singing or something.
no!
oh they go if he starts singing!
why!
cos singing?
so he dropped a metal pallet on purpose and course, it makes a hell of a row!
yeah well i would of thought it'd been nice, been nice to have 
well 
somebody happy around instead of miserable.
yeah but he, he is rather loud.
is he always singing?
oh terrible!
i wouldn't mention it.
i suppose he does it on purpose don't he?
yeah.
never mind singing.
i ha i had sort of few, few words with him this morning.
with who?
cliff, cliff .
why?
cos of that come in front again.
we do.
i never said nothing mm cos 
why aren't you drinking that?
yeah when i've had this.
i never said anything then he er i could see he'd gone cos he just stood there for about ten minutes like th and everybody else was working, he just stood there like this for about ten minutes by the rack see him doing nothing i never said nothing he come charging through with a rack and knocked all the pallet over what they just stacked up with fifty boxes on so we had to make that right and he stacked a load of l t m boxes which are temperamental anyway and he hadn't pulled the wrap tight so as soon the bloke lift them up with the forklift, they fell all over!
they fell over.
ooh christ!
and then i'd i'd had enough and then he started messing about and he started pushing the boxes down through my strapper then, course that messed the strapper up!
so i 
did it?
i was doing the lift.
oh!
he said what's the matter?
i said well what you do in your private life it's up to you if you want to get drunk and you want to spend money then that's fine but once you step over that clock tower i said and you start interfering with my work it's a different thing, i said well i've and i've just said nothing because although you ain't worked right, at least you've sort of you've work in this factory sort of in the morning, you've got over it but 
and then 
yeah 
.
there's been disaster tonight ain't gonna put up with it!
so what he say?
didn't say anything.
i said you know, i think you've gotta sort yourself out lee and everybody went sort of quiet but paul said i've never had a rollocking!
i said well in all fairness paul, you ain't actually bloody got , i said i don't do it for the fun of it i said and i don't like doing it but i see, he just sort of 
well that's silly comment can't be doing him any good!
i said well the thing is discipline.
if grandma went 
if the transport 
into the she'd sherry each.
cor!
i said if the transport get that load of l t m thrown back robin is gonna get it right in the neck!
and if robin gets it in the neck i shall get it in the neck and i shall be getting it in the neck because of you!
so i said i think 
well then what did he say?
i said i can assure mate, i said i shall make sure there's hell to pay!
i said but i shall be wrong for not saying anything about you coming to work drunk.
so i said i'll leave you to think about that.
well he must of had that amount he must be contin , he must have alcohol in the body continuously.
of course he has he was drinking saturday afternoon to saturday night, sunday afternoon and the sunday night not monday night but again last night.
so he never gets over it does he?
and he went to bed half past two.
and got up at four.
before then i should think, quarter to four.
i should think he looked like nothing on earth did he?
yeah.
well he's gonna kill his self isn't he?
that's right.
anyway he's just rotting his bowel, he'll be rotting his liver next!
yeah i said to him cliff, i think it's tragic mate!
i said that's none of my business, nothing to do with me but i said i should think it's a tragic waste for you and i say, it wastes your money but that's entirely down to you.
and what did he say?
nothing.
he didn't say a word, no.
well it is a shame innit?
mm i mean, you know when he gave up the drink
he was a different man.
he was a different bloke, yeah.
mm.
and the trouble is you see they all make laugh of it old cliff, old cliff, old cliff!
and that makes him worse, really.
yeah well i said to him, what you don't realise is cliff they laugh at you to your face
but they talk 
at the 
behind your back!
end of the day when you do something wrong they're the first to nip in that office and say what you've done wrong and why you've done it wrong.
yeah,.
but i think i shall have a quiet word with him tomorrow morning when i get to work.
gonna see him?
yeah.
and say what?
well, you know i just can't sort of let it go on.
well he perhaps won't do it any more now you've told him.
as soon he gets his mouth round a guinness bottle mate, that's it!.
well for heaven's sake, how many does he have?
well it's roughly about five pound and, one pound and i thought he said one pound forty a pint.
how many bottles does he have?
well he got through fifty quid on saturday and sunday so that's forty pints innit?
that's twenty pints each day 
what and forty pints in a night !
no forty pints in two like saturday afternoon and saturday night, sunday afternoon and sunday night, he got through forty pints or perhaps just under forty pints but that's it.
well is he an alcoholic?
well he's always been able to drink like that he's .
well he's happy enough behind all this isn't he?
well well i dunno.
well i'm, i must admit i don't know.
but i was the trouble 
what?
is
he's rotting his stomach isn't he?
yeah i mean, and the trouble is what n annoys me more than anything is the fact that he's good worker i me even when he's drunk, alright he don't work at full capacity but he does sort of almost as much as what they do and when he's 
yeah.
sober he can do more than they do i mean i that ain't the sort bloke you wanna lose, and i'm, when he balls and shouts at them well he gets on your nerves really but at the end of the day i'll you know, i'll put up with it.
you can put up with that, good god!
yeah because he's a, he's a bloody good worker but and when he's like cor!
and the other morning disgrace!
the funny thing is, like there's a beer smell isn't there?
yeah.
but he has got the sort of acidy sort of alcohol smell on his breath just like you'd been on spirits all night or whatever, any sort of you know, wine and it's not a beer sort of smell.
but i mean he's i mean ivan said to me, phworgh, he said when cliff's breathing over you!
i said i know i said, just like neat alcohol innit?
god he said!
well i should think that's acidity in his stomach innit?
definitely and he'll say i've got this pain, i've got this pain, i should think you have cliff!
oh it's not that, no it's not.
where's he get the pain?
in his side.
in his side?
i think he's rotting his liver, that's the feeling.
liver, yeah , exactly.
but you see he's that thick 
.
you can't tell him nothing he would say oh no no no, beer's no problem, beer's no problem no it's not that experience, not that experience, i said well you wanna smell yourself cliff!
cor god!
well i still alcohol.
it does.
yeah alcohol 
and your guess is that he said er bought something 
guinness is a heavy drink!
yeah he's 
that's surprising he don't have such a bad head!
no he said er 
ah cor!
well fancy being a like that all that time it's bad enough when you've been out on a binge and you get that headache then.
chris ivan said to me, he said cliff wanted us to go and have a drink he said when we've finished work on a friday he said last night, i tell you, i said i said no, no i didn't!
well how are you all gonna get home?
oh yeah he don't mean that he had a lot of drink, just have a drink and come home.
i said well i hope you enjoy .
well it isn't worth it, you can't afford to drink and drive can you?
i know.
mel's got her lights up, did you see them?
yeah well yeah.
mm yeah talking about that now he's out the way basically what he was gonna say was, as simple as this
.
well it don't matter does it?
oh alright then.
yeah no he was just saying that head office they'll dictate to them like anybody else so he said i've got to have erm the mortgage up to date for a start before i can consider anything.
i thought you'd done that, you was gonna do that?
yeah but i haven't that's what he saying, but he said what i wouldn't do is ju , don't just say right phrum there's 
what do you mean?
there's a thousand pound he said, you know, if you can make it right sort of over the next month but he said basically i cannot do anything until erm the end of february, he said you come in the end of february he said and then we can start to sort it out, he said i can't do anything for you until then.
did you tell him that?
who?
malcolm.
no no point in me well anyway when she
she'll know.
mm so he said erm, that's the situation he said but you can forget your business he said, as far as i'm concerned he said, you've lost for two years so he said consequently he said you're gonna lose this year are you?
i said well i wouldn't be surprised.
so he said well all i can say is he said you wanna just forget that erm
and just do it on the money you owe on the house.
yeah exactly don't get involved at all.
so he said well how do you feel about your business?
so i said well you know, i can't just wind it up over the next six months, i said er what i wanna do i said is erm i gotta carry it on for that transit for that orion till i finished anyway so it's gotta go another year so i said well what i'm feeling about doing i said is er just sort of keeping a finger in the pie i said, he said, if i'd said tomorrow, if i had finished the whole the tomorrow i've gotta buy a car i can buy it finance so i'm gonna get no tax relief on the h p i get no depreciation no nothing like that i said so at least if i still self employed i can if i have the sort of two or three vehicles or whatever three, four, five vehicles but i said at least i can have some erm and i can then sort of they would be more utilised, where as i said at the moment we got more vehicles than we really need to keep full capacity so he said yeah, yeah fair enough then.
i said well that's what is, i said if you look at it the depreciation is so heavy compared with the income, and i said and the insurance as well but i said hopefully cos we haven't had any of er any claims at all this year you know, i said i know but all of the insurances of gone up, but i said i'm hoping that we can sort of get the insurance down if possible so he said, yeah fair enough then.
he said well from my point of view anyway at least he said just disregard that completely he said and we will do it on what you earnt, so he said all i can is erm just put in as many hours as you can to get your wages up on that side erm and then by the time we look at that he said, the end of february obviously you'll have december, january and february which will be good months there, i said yeah so he said well then you know erm a hundred pound here and a hundred pound here he said, it all helps to keep the figure up for you so he s 
yeah but that don't help us with malcolm does it?
no, but i mean all i can say is basically erm
give him as much as yo , we can, when we can.
yeah.
and can you do 
and he said he's quite prepared to do it, he said, there wouldn't be no problem but he said i cannot do it, he said they are
what, is he gonna lend, what's he gonna lend you then?
about thirty three thousand but you see what he said is, head office make the rule and he said and they're not 
no there's no problem that we can 
no.
have it?
that's right, he said what 
but you can't have it till february.
yeah because he said as soon as they see arrears he said they insist that it's paid up and they insist that you have like three months pay them no problem he said 
yeah.
and then there's no problem.
i said no, but he's 
well we can manage that probably 
yeah.
couldn't we?
but he's, he give me a a print out, he said well here's your print out look so he said as soon as 
but you'll have to ring malcolm and tell him geoff because he'll be on the phone to miriam.
yeah but she'll know she'll know that in fact he'll be seeing her.
was he alright?
malcolm or
yeah he just said you did say i can have some more money, i said well yeah.
ah we ain't but you must pay your mother too, geoff!
yeah yeah.
and then there's andy as well.
yeah well what i think i'll do
well why don't you pu yo well did you 
use that other thousand?
what?
or is that still in the bank?
or have we used it all now?
what you on about now?
hang on,yo your losing me!
well you do dad's two you give to him
i give him two and a half.
yeah, well then you had that rest well there should 
be quite a bit in that account because there was only one six that went through for this insurance and there hasn't been a lot more going through this month.
no 
so you got erm quite a bit.
ah but it'll be something few days, you see from cars find out what i've still got on there yeah let me just see.
yeah well come on then cos i want to get to mum's cos i'll do that washing up when i come back shan't i?
oh alright then.
well then tha i hope you should help erm this weekend 
that's why i sa that's why i told them the weekend i thought at least i'll have something shan't i?
ooh for goodness sake ca can't you write a cheque out for that david!
yeah.
and that other one's got to be paid within seven days so we 
yeah.
well, how long has go got, till next week?
yeah.
oh.
well we'll send them altogether the weekend hang on, bung it in.
alright then.
alright.
you ain't drunk your coffee, do you wannit?
no i don't, put it away we've got
and i'll wash up when i come back.
i haven't anyway.
well you'll have help me 
when i come back i thought.
david.. that'll do.
i won't get a fairy liquid, your mother might have one.
erm twenty there fifty two hundred ten
i ain't gonna bother to count it 
twenty 
cos does the mortgage come out of that sixty grand 
yeah.
dunnit?
twenty
no, what i'm gonna say to you about this
about what?
three twenty twenty five
have you put him in?
no, that's what i said, i di , she said to me 
get and you lot never told me that renault went out last night!
nobody told me about that!
that's a bloody good job i didn't have a booking for it.
well was it?
yeah but i i'd rather know, cos i,don't know where i am!
erm see mrs can have
the white
for fifteen.
.
let me cross her out and put fifteen in there.
so, put how much money how much is she paying then?
thirty five, that's there.
that'll be enough then yep cos that's the same amount of money.
right?
yep.
then the 's want you to fill the bus up with petrol.
do they?
they're a hundred and seventy miles.
yeah.
well i'm sure that's why i've put that there look, that's the same colour pen no one else is got anything so it is them.
yeah well why ain't why is bringing that back then?
erm, i think she's bringing that back erm early hours of the morning, at 
yeah.
twelve, about twelve o'clock.
yeah, fair enough then.
so, but what i'm saying is you've got a twelve here and oh well that wouldn't make no difference cos she'll have that back, that'll be ready for them na yeah well then we got a twelve there as well!
yeah well that's what i was gonna say, so forget about the other blue ones they can have that.
that's what, that's what i was trying to tell you.
yeah.
so now he's gonna have the twelve minibus erm what do you call him?
darren ?
darren yeah.
i'll put darren well that is clean cos i cleaned that up.
well we got a lot going on this haven't we?
mm.
and i've got to try and get to work, get home, get my jobs done and get these cleaned as well i don't know how i'm bloody gonna do it all!
no.
i'm hoping your not gonna be home too late.
well i think i will be june i don't know, i mean that's been quarter to six these last two nights.
well see carole and them are bringing that back tonight at her erm his son is gonna come back and then 
yeah.
they're gonna leave that here
that's it.
so if i get up there and do it early in the morning, well it don't get light till half seven
no.
well i could do that first i think before i do anything else so that'll mean i've got to do so that if the long is clean 
no.
is it filthy then?
ha !
oh get off, sorry darling.
yeah well that's gotta be cleaned as well sometime, for him nine o'clock that morning, well i can't get all that done, by myself!
maybe .
well i shall have to lend that's all.
well that erm well it all 
depends what time i'm back from you see i, i wanna try and get them hours in tomorrow
well yes.
so then that means me fri , i like to leave friday 
yeah.
free.
yeah.
so the sierra i can do ready for you to take to kevin on fri friday night is it?
yeah i'm delivering it over there friday night.
yeah well that isn't a prob well well perhaps that'll be better if i had er long wheel base down here and do that first, that goes out first?
yeah.
but how can i i can't get it down here you see, not unless you go and dropped it off like 
bring it down and .
yeah well now that bell gone it's out on
s saturday night to sunday.
so you gotta tax that.
yeah.
so get your papers ready and everything tonight
yeah.
and we'll give it to your mum tonight.
yeah oh yeah.
so 
well won't do it till friday anyway will we?
oh no, well don't worry then.
so and the estate i've gotta clean up.
now did jimmy have that, today?
yes, he bought it, that's what i say he brought it back when i was down there.
oh!
where's the little slip of paper
i don't know what you done with it, i never see it.
so what's today?
wednesday erm
what?
.
oh well you can write it on again can't you?
do it when you come home i'm just saying a bit 
no , i wanna do it now.
did you find that other bit of paper?
no .
ooh christ!
well that's there somewhere geoff, cos i wouldn't throw nothing away, you know i don't.
ah!
oh!
oh i've got the 
is that it?
yes.
oh bugger me, that was inside 
yeah.
that book!
that's it.
give us that here!
and i wanna don't go and lose it!
that's definitely 
i put this is where i put my 
no.
stuff i want 
yeah.
to keep!
i don't care where you put it love, just don't and lose it.
in there.
here jonathan, here's your mat, now 
can i have the pen there please?
and i must do my cubs this weekend, both of them.
right, so we're talking
ah look!
come on petal.
in the fridge?
renault 
yep, well i want to get going jonathan cos i've er
yeah.
do your flies up.
then
go and get your shoes on jacket on.
long wheel base tuesday 
cos i gotta wash up when i come back 
thursday 
and sandwiches also.
friday
go on.
a hundred and twenty five.
come on love,.
sierra thirty
and we need 
friday fifty four.
i'll turn this off now shall i?
what have we go to get?
fairy liquid.
fairy liquid.
.
we thought we didn't know what to buy you and i know you like chocolates and i know you've started to drink sherry, so i thought well 
i've got another bottle.
saves on hankies don't it!
what?
cos there's reg reg is having 
they were what?
the heart attack and
we got margaret one of things !
there were plenty of germs 
what ?
we've not, we've not been too good at one of them 
what death traps !
oh does granddad have one?
oh no!
seeing as it's your birthday, yeah that's right , happy birthday for tomorrow anyway.
yeah that's
and there's all around 
you'll be at cup final on thursday.
the world.
yeah.
let's hope you win.
just as well i've been staying out the way .
i won't give it i shan't tell him !
no they're doing that 
i'm coming home.
but a well i should think so, you don't know.
something else
well i was gonna change them but you might as well.
cos there the most 
ooh lovely i do like them walnut.
grandma i what ?
oh look he's a
.
they're all the same.
or there.
thatcher.
yeah.
that's why all
i said and they already 
what's ?
!
mending the cars and different signals.
it sounds like that they know as 
yeah we got one using six 
speak to, just speak to me i don't wanna be .
.
yeah.
oh no!
well i said that's up .
well i thought well if 
ah!
we come earlier we can go back earlier cos of geoff cos you know so i fetched him.
oh .
i get to feel like anyway.
well i said i felt knackered when they left here!
it were only quarter past one and i finished at and i felt really 
yeah.
yeah.
what about this one?
this one looks to be alright 
yeah.
ha ha ha!
well i thought it was a little bit different myself.
yeah.
suppose that'll .
i like rabbits as you know.
cor!
look the has got that one, that one, that one works.
that's what susan bought him didn't she, for his birthday last time?
he wears this one for school.
he's not listening!
oh!
that's what he bought today.
oh you've been out haven't you?
yeah.
course you have.
and he bought, he bought me 
and geoff a lovely 
yeah.
little duck.
i said he are, give him the money to spend on his self!
that's right.
i didn't as , i did tell you you shouldn't of bought me anything!
i know.
really!
that's brown ain't it?
yeah but if you put it in the dark it goes all starry.
are you working tomorrow granddad?
what?
no.
oh.
no cos ken goes to work.
oh i thought he'd finished, he'd finished?
no.
said could be 
yeah.
a couple of days.
is that alright mum?
no i'll be the best team we've had.
's starts at four.
i thought val said he was having three days holiday?
i don't think he'll before at now.
well somebody said 
oh!
.
otherwise we
well i don't mind.
i'll go round there shall i?
see 
well that's what val told me.
so he said well that's you down but he said he wanted to cut them back.
well he hasn't has he?
no well yeah it's up to him what he says.
i'll have that one.
alright.
i said that's bo , that's bothered me about that bleeding , i like him a lot.
well .
who are they?
i never told you i just everything's going round in the room i just had and make the best of it.
blow him!
we don't want him grandma that's why he can't get 
a vehicle from anybody else cos i think he's messed 
that's right 
everybody up there!
i tell you i think he owe a lot of money.
but can you him?
well we've got a tenner to go have we?
but i ain't had chance to say to you, but i was saying to cos when i called in and see you think about it he
he was desperate to get there desperate!
absolutely 
yeah.
desperate!
now he's never ever offered to pay that fifty odd quid.
not till today.
yes so and i reckon quite frankly cos he's living on that lay by up the end and i reckon he was hiding, do a runner or something or he ain't up to something no good!
well he weren't gonna have my vehicle.
he's such a devious little tyke!
yeah.
i even got ken to try it on us.
did you read them that couple in there?
he had what?
he had ken over by the allotments, when he used to stay in the car 
for a couple of weeks rent.
and he went out to pay,first place.
yeah.
that's how he was in the first place though.
so the young he was 
jonathan!
he really had me !
why don't you sit on the pouffe and let grandma sit there.
yeah i'm alright.
there's a place there!
no i'm alright !
shift up then!
can't see no i, i didn't i didn't probe him i said what about the money though?
well what a well i said you are a gentleman of the land well he said i haven't got a lot of money.
well i said how would ?
well well i said nor do i.
i said we've had so much 
aggro i said no money no cars!you'll get a car i said i know you will he said!
call the police in.
oh well i ain't bothered!
i'm afraid she was rude to us!
and i said as well i said 
we put up a lot with him!
i'll go to court.
oh!
i said on what well he said it's gotta be well cos maggie said it's too late i said no
you can have it, he said that's i said yes 
yeah.
on two wheels!
that's right.
not on 
so 
he won't!
i said if you're going to court neil and if that ain't paid, i said there's beth can manage they and they paid us out.
so what are you trying to say then?
i said you're gonna have yo have gone to cornwall.
oh no he's not!
and put the miles on the clocks.
that's ve , that's all very well 
well you might as well save him his and if he has got the car he's gonna hammer it cos he don't 
course he does.
at all.
yeah he'd have probably blown the bloody thing up!
that .
well i rang you just in case you know i don't want yo how we need the money so i thought to myself cornwall, twenty eight?
i thought well that ain't worth it!
but i'd rang the number 
i suppose it's on 
you see, well i put the phone down.
yeah it is twenty eight when you think about it, time you get the van up there.
well no.
.
flipping thing!
up and down 
you know that they they don't think of that though.
you could let they wouldn't let anyone put him in.
they'll think that's all .
they go to.
bloody change that!
well he's a liar!
but do you know 
now would paragon garage not have a car in in the middle of the week?
honest, i don't know.
well about he erm rent-a-van?
he'd have them in.
and he reckoned he'd been there?
he hadn't 
they 
got one!
they wanted to !
yeah he's got his tricks!
he don't want to come down to me cos i shall send him off!
i shall say
i'm sorry!
that's right.
yes, so are you.
i know.
so she said.
you wanna try a bit of roll?
she said 
no not yet, i've only just had my tea!
granddad gran wants some sherry, do you want a glass?
yes please.
yeah.
half'll do.
half of one.
half'll do.
half of one,half of one.
ken's got a bit more to do then?
yeah.
i should think he'll be glad when that's done won't he?
oh it's
they've put a on there's
and the blinking machines been letting down so much!
who's machine is it?
you mean he's gotta pay for it?
does he hire it?
well i, i don't know what sort of terms he's come to i suppose he told them why how much he'd got you see.
oh!
can't just have it so they charge you so much an acre you see and he used to have it.
oh so yo , when you've finished you just take it back sort of thing?
yeah.
oh i see.
pork's very nice.
what's geoff eating?
sausage roll.
oh geoff, you've only just had your tea !
no i can't eat one.
ooh i can't eat one yet.
what's he doing?
there's some 
jonathan mind!
we got held up 
don't open that one!
we we couldn't find out what's wrong with it.
let grandma open which one she wants!
the last time the chain come off come off, as i say, just come undone and it's 
what's grandma done with her nest of tables?
and she hadn't.
.
when the chain brakes she said 
oh blimey!
if it brakes down there's there's taking it up to top sprocket so it comes off you see.
yeah.
then it don't quite work right then.
yeah.
well it shouldn't it it did i but if you just went up to the top they got a pair of i should think about four or five lengths they had to take it off the sprocket and er course you see they 
grandma 
let in front, then they've gone down!
yeah.
and ken said no way can we do we gotta take take some off.
aha.
mm.
that's what i'd like.
and i was, i was there we put it under the , on the bar you see , we were changing, blocking up, blocking them in there and the that just would not go up!
mm.
so what it was th ch ha the chain couldn't give up you see.
oh.
cor isn't mr a weird looking !
well the chain
will you 
the bit takes it up to the
oh!
to the top
and went.
oh ho oh oh!
top of the but it stops losing .
haba, haba, haba!
has to keep it coming out there.
what have you given me that for?
turn over just in case 
you want some 
had to put some time for 
give us a bit more light dad please?
i was amazed.
bet 
what have you done jonathan?
let me take that off of there.
i tell him he won't forget will he?
who?
i won't cos 
no.
i'm going out you see, so i've got to 
yes.
make the best .
gosh!
well
you got my glass jonathan!
here you are.
look .
this is your wife's birthday here.
i know.
oh boy!
i said i was looking i said where's grandma, i put that ne table there is that alright?
what table?
yes course it is.
well i thought what's grandma done with her nest of tables?
so i was looking for, i didn't know where it was and i thought well
well when i you see i used to push the settee in pull it out i thought well i don't know i might as just as well leave it here.
i think it looks nice like .
so do i.
i have it when des and doris is here you see.
it's more homely.
yes so i
well on the phone you'd think he was business ex ec the way he talks!
well he used to be he owns the other factory now.
i know .
what does he do now then?
well they, they just you know they they just have this erm craft sort of, they do stall and and they make stuff for the shop they had he had a couple of retail shops, he had a factory yeah i think he said he had fifty two people working for him.
cor he isn't keen on this!
cor i am.
then he said he had some
oh can i have it?
bad debts or 
no.
something sort of, nearly finished him!
what do you say?
we know how you feel!
he always pays you though don't he geoff?
no problem at all.
oh this is .
.
mind grandma, it's a bit strong.
most he said, don't get done.
in what one?
well er you know tony says oh we want this and we want that he shall have to employ somebody to do, do them so there's no , just get involved 
cor!
with too much
ooh !
yeah.
we ought to had emma here now didn't we?
yeah she likes a glass of sherry don't she?
we ought to had 
yeah.
get them out together.
oh!
i don't think a glass of sherry hurts them.
oh!
it makes you sleep.
i should think you'll be tired tonight anyway jonathan.
cor yeah!
well you wanna go 
what you ?
he's been going to bed too late!
oh, the night before me and we went to bed, had a lovely night and then last night we couldn't last.
i don't know what i'd have done if we had a 
.
what they call a .
yeah well what 
well jonathan 
couldn't get to sleep last night.
cos i had a blocked nose.
ah.
he's got a 
did you?
bit of co well i said he's come in ain't he?
but that .
yeah.
but you see he don't feel the cold!
but 
but i made him put his coat on.
yeah?
didn't get them on.
that's ten 
he 
yards.
he drinks it too quick.
yeah.
well that don't hurt does it.
and er 
kevin 
why, a couple of sherries isn't gonna
i .
make or break you is it?
it's when the 
they should help you to sleep really.
why not?
that's what i'm saying, i never seen !
can i have another one now?
see i never heard them i 
not yet!
looking at.
drink too much, cor!
but we painted it all 
what, you mean you 
granddad.
drink too much?
can we have one of those things?
well, i don't one glass one alright, i go 
.
and fill it again!
well that won't hurt you!
right,granddad.
couple of glasses of sherry!
then i go 
i had two glass fulls 
and that's 
and mum had two glass fulls, but she didn't drink hers so i had four glass fulls.
my when it hit the side of the
ooh 
well it hit the tractor 
mm.
don't mind that .
i always 
ooh!
find sherry burns my stomach!
tear in it and th holes in it.
here i feel it here.
no i feel it here i do.
but it er
yeah when it goes down
take some 
i had one yet, i'm gonna 
i weren't gonna have one 
yeah.
cos i've only just had my tea 
don't say 
but i will try a little one.
and then wash her back
we haven't long had tea!
shelves and 
very nice.
i'm gonna sit there st 
so er
daddy went and fetched
he he put the washing in the 
where is blackie?
goes in the wash and and put some 
oi shut up!
me and him you see.
yeah.
gonna let her out.
aren't you gonna let her in?
the man said 
go and get her in.
shall i go let her in?
so he i he, he just put them put the washer in and, and just take care of it.
yeah.
i said i've ruined this tracksuit haven't i?
shall i go and get her in?
you'll have to 
erm before we have any help in!
then he said 
yeah.
i said the funny part about it was we never had at home 
so when you bring her out shut that door 
that's the we wanna, we're gonna up
i said 
town 
oh 
going up town
and then
turn the off 
was or not,
what you mean?
the kitchen door.
yeah.
i think 
june.
it's alright now 
they've got at 
i know it is, i see you picked the 
er 
figures.
and the join, and it fell off
that was the only .
and then gone back!
ooh ooh!
i had to say, say well i never where the hell did that come from?
geoff he pulled out .
did he?
yeah.
and the machine wouldn't work so 
well geoff did buy me some sherry glasses he says oh, you give me two 
like very similar to this.
what colour's the 
oh!
little boy in?
mm.
then he said er er er
you make nice pastries, nice and light.
i said to dad, are you getting too 
, he said i'll work late i know what 
and everything's very nice , lovely!
mm.
because you want the right size join what you put in they hadn't got any, no more of these 
no i said to geoff well i hope he don't come back.
who?
they're supposed to 
that bloke, i don't want him coming 
.
well dear you won't worry, i'll shall soon tell him to !
you ought to you ought to say to him, i shall ring the police, you come round here any more!
people in the, in the bay i wouldn't 
no i'm not!
i don't want him, it worried me that he might come and bother your mother.
yeah.
no!
there's no this time.
i can stick up for myself!
oh!
so he won't you just don't
i did that 
i know you can.
old bloke!
end of the day and if you don't let him in, he don't have to have any 
no.
anyway!
well i tell you something if he ke , if he does start to hassle us i shall ring the police and i shall tell them!
mm.
i should use 
i shan't have no qualms about it, i shall say well he's hassling me and my mother-in-law and we can do without it!
that old boy that i spoke to, when his he was with his daughter, i said you give me my bloody keys and you money!
i gotta move!
i said well there's a wheelbarrow down there mate!
rent-a-van's up there.
so she come the other day, she said well my dad is like that.
she wants to come in.
i said well he's not gonna 
ha!
be like that with me my dear, i said, tell me how to run my son's business!
that's right.
well what are we going to do?
i said well that's his hard luck!
pardon me!
i'm sorry!
i said i almost charged him sixteen instead of 
twenty six!
and it's 
brurgh!
oh.
i said it's funny, i said, but now when you're trying to help 
don't mind these 
well you can't take no notice of that, i said i'm afraid i do!
that's right.
so he went so away we went.
hello blackie!
hello!
they like that,
cor she's getting a fluffy coat isn't she, now?
well it's like with them gypsies weren't it ?
yeah.
now the policeman wouldn't go!
and you went after them?
my mother's 
well it's like me innit?
oh !
well geoff's nearly got a smack in the ear hole today!
yesterday.
well yesterday.
your glass again now?
no, she hasn't drunk the first one yet!
and i worked on the till this morning i said to .
what?
yeah she is quite cold isn't she, on the phone?
what annoys me, she told me to have them plums!
they don't belong 
and he had 
to me!
she said don't tell such bloody lies, i said he's going in caravan!
who's is that caravan?
so her head come out what's the trouble?
i said he's only got a bag of my plums!
what do you mean got a bag of your plu ?
i said i saw him!
i said he's, he's been right back past my window!
you, you, don't he said, i'll down to you, i said i don't bleeding first!
that's alright.
i said to that caravan i get upset!
he said well i ain't going up there!
well i said i'll go with you but he did he eventually go?
that policeman, did i go with 
.
him or did he
no.
no he wouldn't dare!
no.
unless he went with a team i don't know.
and you went and he didn't?
yeah!
ken said my mother's just been well i'm not going.
innit marvellous!
he said we're not to go any more on our own.
can i have another sherry please?
yeah, he said we're not supposed to go on our own!
now she won't change.
well i suppose yeah cos they could set on him on his own 
yeah.
he wouldn't stand a chance would he?
oh no god !
they , they normally have a back up all the time don't they, policeman?
they're never normally on their own are they?
well i mean he was stealing and then, what about that time when i rang the police to say he's nicking apples out 
grandma.
of here.
sherry please?
and he said i gotta see him pick them!
they won't cha , you won't chase him 
i gotta catch him!
well i said if you stand there long enough i said, you'll catch him!
i sa 
yeah what makes me laugh they come with the blue lights flashing don't they!
yeah.
that's right.
you know cos 
and then give theirself away don't they?
yeah , people scarper don't they?
yeah!
i said i saw the boy come over the 
ooh i reckon there was an accident today on the a seventeen erm
what time?
ooh it's early in the morning.
yeah well i said to you
there was skid marks all over and the traffic was right back down the a seventeen, when i got there it 
would it be sort of before your dad went?
perhaps say quarter to nine?
cos i saw two police car go along there.
might have been.
they were flashing their lights.
wouldn't like to say really cos then you when you start at quarter to five 
no you 
you haven't got no idea of the 
no.
time sort of pass 
but i did hear this one and i run to the window 
by the time we do our morning and the , you're then getting up sort of thing you see 
yeah.
this is it.
and then it's 
and then there's two police cars going towards wisbech i saw them
mummy.
flashing 
ah!
lights.
what's the matter dear?
so it no this is broad daylight 
i want another glass of sherry.
you better ask grandma.
he wants another glass of sherry grandma.
what time?
it'd be broad daylight so it'd be a bit later.
and that's all you have, you don't have 
yeah.
no more jonathan!
oh!
must be about nine time well what time does dad go?
oh that'd be about quarter nine.
oh it could well of been then, yeah.
yeah.
aren't you feeling very well jonathan?
got all my cake and no shopping for me.
he's got a bit of cold that's all.
i'm hot.
i think he's had a busy day.
oh 
perhaps getting a bit tired.
i'm hot!
there you are that'll perk you up then.
yee hee!
what do you say?
that'll make him warmer.
thank you.
well done.
oh !
glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug!
ooh you naughty boy!
anybody else?
you what?
shall i do you one?
yeah might as well yeah.
i'll have one why not.
you'll soon finish that bottle!
that's don't matter, i got another one.
that other one what was it?
yes.
oh you didn't ought to have open that,
that's what i said!
it don't matter that other ain't done.
oh innit?
oh 
no.
oh i thought it had.
no.
oh we didn't to drink yourselves.
oh well go on!
had a drink.
it's about twenty one 
yeah.
we'll have to make sure we get a bottle of sherry in for christmas geoff.
mm.
well we usually 
what do we usually drink?
sherry
i like that yellow 
whisky 
stuff.
i'd better not drink any more!
that warninks.
oh advocaat you like?
yeah.
i do like that.
daddy what happened if you go glug glug glug glug glug?
you'll go lug lug lug lug !
you'll burn your throat and you'd feel very 
yeah and you wouldn't be, feel very well.
ah!
dee dee dee.
you won't have it if you're gonna drink it quick.
just sip it jonathan sip it at .
did you have another one?
coming at and again.
yeah?
yeah?
ooh crumbs!
they'll try and knock the old cars off the road won't they?
that's 
cor!
what they're trying to do.
dad?
well you can't you know 
i need some whisky!
i know your car's getting 
old but i i it yeah but it don't look erm
it take 
that rust.
but you get some, they're full of rust and it makes you wonder 
oh it's terrible 
how they keep on the road, don't it?
we've seen them, they seem to and the mud guards hang off!
and i met some of them cha you know that chap and 
mm.
it's fascinating!
yeah that's right that's right.
well you'd you'd think they wouldn't want them on the road cos if they had an accident the people would get killed, they'd just 
well my one 
crumble wouldn't they?
er car park about a fortnight ago.
.
well i wonder however that that got through to touch that.
yeah.
course th the one of the wings wa , was bashed inside, they were hanging off!
do you wanna finish that thing?
yeah.
oh?
do you want finished.
there's people out they was in, it was the paper the other day about about the da , about the arresting people.
yeah.
yeah.
that's that girl who you knew.
when was that other one?
yeah that's it.
how did he do it?
little girl.
yeah.
and they 
he's a big old boy , john !
that the wings ho hold on 
big fat slob!
is he?
cor is he!
is he as old as jonathan?
same age 
!
virtually.
yeah.
well when he was so and it 
actually do it myself 
what are you doing?
can't he?
yeah, if someone lifted the gearbox 
erm 
it's gone forever!
when he was a little 
yeah.
baby, he was 
i said i've 
such a puny sickly looking thing!
i've done a hundred and twenty thousand 
but 
and the gearbox was as the day they come out!
cor his head and shoulders taller than you isn't he jonathan?
no.
he is, he's he's a 
he isn't.
lot bigger than me.
is he bonny?
ooh yeah!
he weighs 
he comes to there on me.
how much no he's tall , lot ta bigger than that isn't he geoff?
he's a lot taller 
oh yeah.
about there.
than jonathan, john is a big old 
well ricky comes 
boy isn't he?
ricky's only there.
how much does j erm john weigh?
nine and
nine and a half.
nine and a half stone?
more than me!
so anyway 
well weighs ten and a half!
losing that old datsun they got hold 
well i said i think that's far 
yeah.
too fat for young girls!
yep.
mm.
datsun cherry.
oh she's like a bull 
yeah.
elephant!
see if her m 
oh yeah i saw her didn't i?
well if her mums was to slim her 
down now.
she's going 
no in second gear.
norma 's little girl, is she as fat as ever?
try to pull 
yeah.
parts .
well no she did go on a diet, she used to go and see a dietician 
at the hospital.
who's that?
kerry 
i'd, she used to come round and help 
i think 
erm.
she weighed nine and half didn't she?
.
and she's what?
nine years old.
what walked to 
she's er 
and back again.
do you 
yeah.
mind if i have a cigarette?
the head the youngest nine 
and a half stone year old!
i want an ashtray, go get us one.
you hasn't started it mum!
all the shout 
no i know i ain't started it!
i don't have to rush!
well i haven't started!
i'll take them round like that!
yeah.
can i have some?
no you're not having 
no.
any more of it!
no .
!
you shouldn't drink it quickly!
ooh you'll go without 
when we got straightened up we can 
if you can have 
that's wrong to drink all that ain't it?
that was 
like that.
put you off.
yeah.
if if i think i'm it'll be 
and then 
alright.
and then e everybody 
in a minute.
when he's when he's facing this way 
he wants sleep
yeah.
sleeping.
wouldn't of helped us.
well i'm hoping he's gonna go to bed not too late tonight.
ooh your dad and i will sleep like a top.
yeah.
if 
i said to 
that mrs 
i thought , i thought we'd go to erm .
what's her name?
.
at any rate he 
?
he 
he'll be alright .
why does have that fish?
says he's 
cooking i told you .
mm.
front of the drive.
why doesn't nan have 
yeah.
that big tall one?
i did, i didn't even like to move 
well granddad uses that.
round there and 
oh.
that's 
and norma used to say, i don't put them to bed with charlie because they don't go to sleep, in and out of bed she tried the bed's .
that's right.
so
where you going jonathan?
i was ta 
i'm going to get something.
i was talking to mrs 
i said what about it?
your little old come up the window and
no.
pulled the curtains back.
you still 
i said now that one's baby in there.
cor!
i said i'll spray 
well i te is it, you know how 
no.
cos i walked home with liz tonight
oh.
cos, i had to go and pick jonathan up didn't i?
cos it was getting dark and he hadn't got his light 
no.
on and i didn't i said to him i'll come and meet you a i said you can come to the hall cos that's ever so light through there
yeah.
cos all them,so oh and talking about that, i see the manor house er you know the one on the chase
's.
i see that all lit up look at that, look nice!
so i thought 
i bet it does!
cor blimey i could live in there!
yeah.
that looked really lovely!
oh yeah what was i saying erm
about liz and coming meeting jonathan.
oh yeah, so i walked with her.
well her little granddaughter's a lovely little girl!
well then i 
but she's immaculately clean!
yeah well her washing, that girl's washing and that, i think that used to be lovely!
well i don't know what's happened to kevin.
well i don't know what's happened to kevin then!
cos that little girl's immaculate!
yeah.
look what i got, a !
well liz used to 
no we're not playing that tonight 
jonathan, we've come down to sa talk.
and then she used be spotless at one time!
her washing, you couldn't touch her!
i don't know what's happened to her!
well sh 
saying.
well he can play with the bits.
i bought the trotter out.
we're not playing it, not 
i'm not 
tonight!
tired!
toys and 
it's just toys, it's not lotto look!
look!
he said lotto!
too thin, ooh i'd love to stop 
oh yeah i thought he'd put 
bless you!
that was your dad's.
was it?
mm.
and brian bought you that didn't they?
some more belonging to it in there look jonathan, that other thing there.
what this one?
the trailer.
this it?
the trailer 
the 
did.
trailer.
you don't see that sort of thing now, parts 
no.
do you?
and i suppose that's the in 
this didn't did it?
wouldn't think so, i mean that's probably 
an air force thing.
well !
they've only 
where?
must have the whole army nearly!
we see a tank like this wha , on a like this one of these a man in a jeep
what you mean 
right?
today?
yeah and we see a lorry with a bloke he was doing like that looking out the back and we all go ahhhh !
what real?
yeah.
oh!
where did you sit on the bus?
er in the middle.
oh you didn't sit on the back seat then?
no, not at all.
when we went to er zoe's place there they'd got some tins, that megazone tin what i've got
oh yeah.
on the shelf.
had 
yeah.
they?
yeah, and that other one what i put my stamps in.
yeah the one.
i said well i got some of them !
old oxo tins and that 
yeah.
er 
yeah cos you 
oh we used to have, when we used to go on the strawberry field 
see.
we used to have lu er
our lunch packed up in one 
oh yeah 
of them oxo tins 
yes.
didn't we?
yeah.
them zube sweets don't they?
yeah.
and i laughed i,
they make all them bon bons don't they at the moment.
well is she upset cos we're sitting on her seat?
well you perhaps won't believe me but i sit where geoff is and she gets right against me and there's all this to spare isn't there granddad?
yeah but they like to be close.
and if i come here 
like we like touching me.
yeah my cat 
then she'll go to me again.
does.
yeah.
look.
but cat's do i think.
lucky!
but she's
she can't hear you jonathan.
she's looking ever so well at the moment and she's eating.
no!
they'll think 
why not?
i'm cuckoo if i do that!
three!
what?
so!
well do you want them to think your mother's cuckoo?
yeah, well they're not gonna know who you are, are they?
well i think so cos i have to write in the book, i have to put myself!
yeah but you don't put who you are on it!
i put myself.
well who else is myself?
if that isn't me!
yeah but they don't know who you are do they?
well i know!
well then!
they gonna think you're a terrible idiot but at least you get the tapes done!
well i don't want to be a total idiot thank you!
i would!
well i know you wouldn't care!
can i talk to myself?
no!
it's all about conversation jonathan, you'd hardly have a conver 
ginge!
what?
he was outside!
cat flap.
hello!
he's oh mum i i'm going!
oh!
ah!
ooh!
love bite .
did anybody get for not behaving?
only two people.
who was that?
erm that was mark and jeremy and unless somebody owns up they were pinging a dried pea at lee and nearly hit mr !
ooh crumbs!
we won't have any more plays ever!
what sort of plays?
all plays.
well i, it wouldn't worry you, you aren't gonna be there!
yes i am!
all the year.
what you mean, play time?
yep.
well that's hardly fair if you didn't do it!
who did it?
they don't know who did it!
who do you think did it?
he's got a good idea.
well i think the person's very selfish not to own up.
and do you know who he thinks it is?
who jeremy 
jeremy .
i wouldn't be surprised!
and he won't, and he wouldn't own up ever!
he would never own up.
well that isn't very fair on the rest of you though is it?
mr has got he said if you're don't own up you'll put everybody in doubt.
matthew didn't do it.
hasn't he been very well?
dunno.
probably, cos he wouldn't of missed a trip would he?
no.
has that tape nearly finished?
i've no idea jonathan i'm not looking.
on side b.
well dad'll probably ha , he usually has a lot to say when he comes home from work he's been home and rushed out so i 
oh.
he's had to go and get a battery 
for the minibus.
i'll tell you what you can do on the freezer there's some cat food for the cat you can feed him that.
all of it?
no not all of it!
it's only half!
i don't know how that tin got left out there.
nor do i.
and then you can bring yourself a couple of pizzas in.
but i can't reach the pizzas.
yes you can, they're on the top, you reached them the other night.
these will do.
from down the bottom.
will you please try them?
but it hurts my belly!
it hurts!
oh go on jonathan!
but it hurts!
why does it hurt your belly?
well cos i have to lean over!
on my belly!
well how do you think mum does, she isn't half much taller than you anyway!
yeah but you can go like that cos you got long arms.
would you go down a hole if it was life or death that was just enough for you to get into
yeah.
and
stay in there jonathan cos .
erm it was about a foot wide.
.
wouldn't you?
not if it was life or death?
wouldn't you ever do it if it was life or death?
pardon?
would you do it if it was life or death?
well i suppose i would have to.
i certainly wouldn't like it.
nor would i!
it's got a load of rat holes in!
can't smell in that.
i can get to the .
hurry up!
shut the door, i want to garden.
no i ain't gonna talk to myself!
well just keep saying something, keep talking to me!
i can't you berk, you're right outside the door!
no i can still talk !
don't he look cute!
well i'm not really keen on having a box of lego on the dinner table.
oh oh!
well i don't really think it's right do you?
yes.
well i don't!
i do.
i'm just getting out all the good bits.
i hope dad's not gonna be too late 
yeah.
cos we was late home for tea last night weren't we?
yep that's my dad!
that's my daddy he is always la la la la la late he never comes early early on 
he's always late, that is true.
doo doo doo doo doo da 
oh god!
what does it mean sugar 
there goes the phone.
wha shall i turn it off?
no, that's alright.
my i wanted to do,is said my name is jonathan do do, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo do da da da da da da da money dee da my name is jonathan ee ee ee dee doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo din din din din din din my name is jonathan din din din and it's mine and it's mine oh oh oh mum mum bom bom bom bom bom, bomby om bomby om doo de doo doo doo doo dee dee dee dee doo doo doo dee doo doo dee dee dee i said my name is jonathan come on mum i kept the cassette going.
oh.
it hasn't started yet.
i want that pen.
just so you know mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm .
all these people want cars, i can't understand it 
normally they don't want this time of year.
yeah they've changed their mind haven't they?catch me up and .
renault's out that's on there the cars he's got that 
you can catch me but you can't catch me yet come on mum, they want you talking!
i know,yo , i can't talk every five minutes of the day.
well you've got to if you want to keep the money.
is that all you think about is money jonathan?
mm i thought that's all you thought about!
no i could do with a lot more.
that's what i mean.
that is the more i think about it though.
that's all i think about.
what?
that's all i think about mm.
i know it is.
i hope daddy will be 
right, clare she said it's not fair!
my sister is getting the compact disc for five hundred and ninety nine pound and i'm only 
she's lucky then!
getting a computer for a hundred and ninety nine pound!
the price isn't the point.
blooming heck four she, her blooming sister's getting five hundred, she's getting four hundred.
well, i don't know where they get their money from!
nor do i!
and they got a skoda!
well that, precisely.
well they just gone to , they're going to europe.
oh are they?
mm that's what she said.
did she?
yep.
she's a funny girl isn't she jonathan?
she's weird!.
cos she erm she's throws a wobbly quite often don't she?
yeah.
is she like that in class?
yeah.
is she?
yep.
for doing it?
.
oh no she doesn't do it in front of mrs .
i shouldn't think, she hates mrs don't she?
does she?
yeah, i dunno why.
mm, i bet i do, ha !
why?
well mrs only tells her off when she's naughty.
well she ain't really 
i know she's not the most popular person, but she is 
right a lot of the time.
not all the time though.
well not all the time, nobody's right all the time, but she is a right she is right a lot of the time jonathan because some of them children misbehave 
who?
terribly!
ooh they had a lot of bangers this morning!
bangers?
smash, crash, bash!
what was is then?
everybody fell over.
in the first play.
oh.
cor right, there was one little boy i felt sorry for him right, he went up, down, up, down, weee!
want ben you know ben don't you?
yeah.
he fell over, jonathan could you take that lego box off my table!
mm.
he fell over and his tooth went straight through his lip!
urgh!
we had to take him to hospital and he had three stitches in it.
weren't it?
yeah ben .
i thought it was ben ?
i don't know who took him.
no it weren't ben .
it was!
ben you know lisa ?
that isn't lisa, that's erm
emma.
no, what's her name now?
helen?
nope i can't think of her name.
it is, lisa!
it isn't lisa erm she's got blonde hair hasn't she?
dunno.
oh, i can't think of her name now cos i got a mental block.
it isn't ben !
are you talking about a boy that plays with sarah ?
well i don't know, he only comes part-time.
oh.
yeah well maybe in the
gemma gemma .
that isn't ben!
gemma and ben are brother and sister 
how do you know it is ben though?
what is it then?
not ben.
well anyway, him then.
yeah.
did you know?
yeah.
was a lot of blood.
mm .
how did he fall over?
oh he'd been tripped.
cor right, he went woosh!
woosh!
woosh!
when he got up they was like that.
what?
he had a tooth, that went straight through his bottom lip.
yeah you could see the tooth outside, i thought ahhh!
yorrible!
my name is jonathan 
mrs said he was ever so good.
mm.
well i think we better have our tea if daddy's here in a minute.
so get that lego off the table and you tea.
my name is jonathan, i am a boy
i'd like to be a big fat boy !
don't be silly jonathan!
i've got an ambition and it is to grow fat i'd like to grow like a big fat .
you're not funny, that's ever so silly!
can you guess what the last one word was gonna be?
no.
now where's fudge in or out?
in.
is he?
yeah.
was she still ?
no.
you all going down robert's tonight.
yeah!
alright.
doo doo .
i think tea will be virtually ready.
well come on dad 
if he comes.
i suppose i'll have to put his in the microwave, i can't keep messing about like this.
if he comes now it'll be perfect timing.
what?
if he comes now it'll be perfect timing.
well he did the other night didn't he?
walked in as i said it.
yeah you go well if dad don't walk in, any second now and he walked in!
i know he did.
come on now i want the lego off the table please!
and i said in a minute.
don't be so cheeky!
isn't cheeky!
i warned you the other night, me and you gonna fall out if you keep being cheeky.
that ain't even cheeky!
remember what erm two christmas cards today look!
who from?
one from mrs next door
mrs ?
you know, who used to be there?
i said hello from the .
oh blimey!
hope life is treating you well.
we shall have to pop in one of these days and surprise you.
i've got a headache.
i can't remember what they look like.
meantime we wish you a very happy nineteen ninety two, our warmest wishes carole and ian p s julian bought his own place two years ago.
who's julian?
that boy, their son, the young one.
i can't remember them!
and that one's from michael and nathan and gareth.
gareth?
you know michael ?
didn't they come down here, them two boys one night with their dad?
to pick up a well they come here one afternoon to pick up a car.
what when we ni , when played that football game?
yeah that's right.
one of them was about my age weren't he?
yeah i think he goes to when you go.
does he?
i think so, i'm not quite sure.
i liked him.
i bet he can be .
i tell you who else goes when you go, erm
who?
dale.
.
is it dale?
dane?
dale.
yeah he goes.
and dale dale.
well i don't know his name!
i 
er lee ee ooh 
i don't know them all.
ee ee ee ee ee ooh .
hey right guess how they put we three kings, it goes this is how gary put it on the sheet, he goes we three kings , no is bitter perfume he will die and go in his tomb .
who said that?
i read what it said!
people die and what?
go in their tomb.
something like that.
well that ain't very nice!
and i and instead of ma , no frankincense to offer have i , he goes,frankincense to o , no,frankincense to jesus to 
well you'll singing 
o 
for the infants aren't you?
yeah.
well that's gonna be in the church then, that 
yeah we 
three kings of orient i,
what .
that's in a week!
it's next week!
no it isn't, it's the eighteenth.
well it ain't the eighteenth next week cos the .
we're doing it next week!
well i don't think you are.
next friday i think!
i don't think so.
what's today?
what's the date?
what's the 
well it says on here look jonathan, if you look!
what's today?
it says a christmas service will be held in the oh no it isn't the juniors are now helping the infants with their nativity story on wednesday the eighteenth of december this was originally a advertised, by me, at taking place at six thirty in walton st. peter church, i'm afraid this was a mistake on my part, as in fact the performance is rather ten thirty on the da on that day at walter st. andrew church.
this timing will enable even the youngest children to take part.
mum'll go to that cos i like carols.
i'm not!
well course you are going to it!
don't want to!
why?
i don't like them new words!
they're rubbish!
right, and the other story goes the angels go to be 
can you get off 
to sing to him
i'm ready!
the angels going to sing to him.
i'm ready jonathan!
now quickly!
get them in, get them in, get them in, them in get them in, get them, get them in, them in doodle oodle ooh,.
i'm sitting here tonight.
i'm sitting over there mum.
why?
i like sitting over there better.
well then why did you let me put all your things you have that side?
nee nee nee nee nee nee nee nee nee nee .
right, let's give you some chips.
.
is that enough?
who was that first one from?
what?
that first what?
fit four people in there won't we?
where?
this , 's, auntie val.
yeah a lot of people have been there, i do agree.
helen or 
yes.
is that who that was from?
yeah, helen,yes.
oh.
ooh that ball isn't half noisy, i hate that ball!
where's my beans?
i think i'll t 
beans, beans beans 
please!
beans, beans, a beans, a beans .
where's your manners just lately, you've lost them since you've been to school!
mm.
how many do you want?
that's enough.
thank you.
what?
what are you me for .
don't show your ignorance please!
don't you mean i don't what you mean!
well there is a please and thank you word!
yeah thanks.
oh dear!
uncle ken went up there.
up where?
the play.
oh no that's all i need!
.
yeah?
can i just ask you .
yeah well he's not home yet.
isn't he?
no.
oh alright i'll come, pop back later then.
yeah he shouldn't be long before he's home but
yeah.
pop back.
erm i can't tell you what time he'll be home really erm well say in the twenty minutes he's bound to be home cos he he's been home and then he's had to shoot out again, he's gone to get the battery so he won't be long.
no, alright then.
alright?
i'll give him a bell about in half hour about six o'clock?
yeah yeah that'll be fine, yep, yeah.
okay then thanks a lot.
okay then yeah, bye!
bye!
about half five!
silly git!
it is half five!
say that about people mum's awful saying that!
especially when the tape's on!
ooh i forgot about that!
yeah well mum can't he looked alright.
ooh!
i burnt myself!
i've done you one as well.
oh no!
what are they?
oh well me and dad will have to have more each.
i don't think you'll like them anyway jonathan.
i've had one before didn't like it.
that's what i thought i should think dad'll come home now that he's gone.
erm
put it on the table cos he's bound to walk in.
i bet he doesn't.
yeah, if you put it on the table he won't, and if you don't
well i'll leave i can't wait any longer, i'm hungry.
mr went to the dentist this morning didn't he?
dunno probably.
he just after dinner or this morning.
who did you have teaching you this morning then?
not all morning.
well part of the morning, who taught you this morning?
mr .
i thought you said he went to the dentist?
mm nobody we just had to get on with my work.
oh mr kept an eye on us.
which classroom was he in then?
mr next door next door.
oh he's gone back in his own classroom now has he?
no it's just they need a teacher.
you need a lot of teachers don't you?
yeah.
what teacher do you like the best?
miss .
do you?
ooh that's nice!
well you can't have it, you've eaten yours!
oh.
have it next time.
did kelly go on about her teeth?
no.
never.
what?
oh i had a giggle!
oh!
i had a tiny bit of a giggle!
why?
poor she didn't actually go to the museum at all.
no she went to the dentist instead, i mean the hospital.
yeah.
she was gonna go erm when next door went weren't she?
mm.
have , enough of her jonathan.
and i thought wergh!
is it?
no she's only having her teeth out!
yeah but she's diabetic.
she was really worried, she was going
yeah but she's under anaesthetic.
cor i wouldn't!
but she has to cos she's a diabetic.
so!.
mm just a sec.
here's comes your dad.
talk of the devil!
i should think .
that's er staying outside.
to his stuff.
mm.
oh yeah.
they want it about eleven but i said, can you get down to get it?
because your dad won't be there, will he?
i have a your dad can
i thought it'd be back by now.
aha.
and also that young chap's been here for the van.
oh yeah.
it was a nice little feller.
yeah and he's he's gonna ring you about half past six.
was that that bloke that rang me up?
or anything like that.
no 
dunno!
what colour coat has he got on?
got jeans on him.
hasn't he got a red coat?
he had another boy with him might 
but who's got a red coat?
had he got a red coat?
i dunno.
cos if he had a red coat, with a little white patch on it i see him walking round the village.
i have had them erm
mm.
you like them do you?
yeah.
oh.
i don't mind them.
where's your other half then?
you what?
not needed, give me that half.
don't like the peas.
oh i thought you was on about the pie.
no, don't mind the pie no i meant don't like them new peas.
they ain't got a lot of flavour have they?
no.
i've done all inside that van.
mm.
just gotta wash the outside.
you wanna charge for it.
yeah, cos it's sun , saturday.
no he don't, mr has it tomorrow!
ooh crumbs!
what are you gonna say to him?
sorry you can't have it.
well he's moving furniture as well.
well you said to me he could have it he said i'll have tonight.
yeah but he must bring it back by nine!
why?
i forgot mr was having it.
mm.
so your mum won't be able 
to go shopping till nine then?
no.
well they don't normally go till about nine anyway well they can't cos the post office don't open till do you want a coffee?
no i'll have a cold drink i don't mind what it is.
do you know i've been so busy, i done that van this morning, i've done my housework and two loads of washing been over petes' did i tell you?
yeah.
rang you?
no.
do you need salt?
no.
do you the pies?
make a change didn't it?
i quite like them.
yep.
not a lot of meat in them though is there?
oh, i'd have this then i 
who's is that?
them ones we got from .
oh.
posted them letters did you?
ha!
no.
where are they?
to post tomorrow.
well i'd have done them myself!
well i got a post office aren't i?
we ain't heard a word from jimmy have we?
no i got .
pardon?
i got .
why, what you gotta do?
that car back from fiesta got the minibus going out got the estate car,he and jimmy's look, he talks about mr , he has left that like a tip!
it stinks of kid wee!
but to work this morning, i could of done it!
mum?
i said take the bus.
yeah but you said you'd be busy!
yeah but i could of when i got home!
now i've gotta do it in the dark!
tell me .
well the hoover won't , except i had to scrub that mini that erm that van, it was so filthy!
yeah.
and now who ?
he did.
jimmy did.
i wonder where he's getting his vehicles from this week?
he's got his ain't he?
i thought you said they stopped the ?
well, he isn't supposed to be using it.
can i have a spoon please?
the bailiff said he couldn't use it.
bloody ridiculous that man!
so someone bought the bailiffs in for sixty two quid!
a t s.
who's a t s?
tyres and .
you don't owe them nothing do you, i hope?
nothing to do with a t s, don't like them.
precisely for that reason i should think!
well wha what he said was he went up there there's erm could they put on the front wheels to the back and the back wheels to the front didn't say anything the bloke said, well we can't charge you.
oh.
and the bloke said well we can't charge you for that.
so this is isn't what it's all about?
well, that's how it all come see he owes them a hundred and seven pound and er 
when he asked them change the tyres over they wouldn't do it.
oh.
yeah but they said we can't charge you for it he said we sell a new tube or sell you a new tyre he said we can charge you but we can't charge you labour.
that's ridiculous innit?
yeah, so he said well charge me for wheel balancing then or something no he said, we can't do that.
he's just being awkward by the sound of it.
so he said will you do it for nothing?
and he said it's not a charity case!
could you pay him to do it?
he says no.
said fair enough he said and with that i come out the garage.
well why don't he use that bloke at st. johns, who you use?
he does now.
so erm he's phoned up me your money cos he said they daren't put me in court you see.
well that's a ridiculous thing to do!
well they say they're gonna put you into court, you get it paid don't you, before anything goes further?
yeah yeah well you see what he said was he could not see how they could warrant him that sixty odd come as interest justify doing it.
it will all depend how long has he owed them it.
possibly about a year i think.
cor!
my god!
so he said, i'm not having that!
and walked round ah so they er got a, sort of court bailiff involved.
for sixty two pound, it must of cost them more than that!
cost a lot of money i would of thought.
they obviously don't like him do they?
no well erm it's a big firm so
perhaps it's 
what they did in is er .
yeah but he's got his self a bad name now isn't he?
yeah.
it made me laugh when your mum kept on about him last night, about having all his hampers stolen.
yeah.
twenty two grand!
ridiculous innit?
the blokes on the make isn't he?
yeah.
you see he's and then he had the cheek to charge me for insurance!
well i expect him to pay the insurance.
who did pay the insurance?
did, but i gonna give it back.
well i should think so,gonna get twenty two grand out of it!
cos he'd have taken them to court and said well he didn't even pay it, i did!
well actually they erm i think the maximum they'll pay out is eighteen thousand.
yeah but i don't think that's gonna be such an easy case to .
well, i don't.
you know it looks to me 
they said they'd got it.
they think that it's all cut and dry, well they haven't got the then people will come round and investigate yet!
no.
mum that'll come out on the tape!
well i can't stop it cos the kettle's boiling!
don't be silly!
mum is there any shandy please?
baby .
jonathan put that straight in the bin for mum, will you please?
yeah.
you yum 
you know 
.
colin?
yum.
who's got a .
yeah.
he was saying
, they're going to yarmouth.
ah!
i see.
that's where they're going cos he said they he's not actually for the itself
yeah.
it's you know, for the workers, they're going out on a meal.
so who's paying it then?
he is gonna pay his self.
tomorrow?
yeah.
oh that's .
well they can .
well i presume so.
what did he er
he ought to have done it through the college got it cheaper.
ah oh oh!
he said this is nothing to do with the college.
why don't he er
well i suppose he's, the man's got his reasons.
i was gonna say what you mean, put petrol in it?
seems stupid!
yeah cos you gotta lay out money aren't you?
yeah so if i decide to 
oh he said, when he's finished i don't whether he's not picking it up till later on.
ooh and another that's what i wanted to tell you about well i don't think we can help him out.
oh well.
gentleman wanted a minibus
yeah.
now, he talked rather nice erm with having four
yeah.
i can't remember his name at all i can i can't think of it now.
i'm gonna go and watch t v.
well what he wanted, he wanted a minibus from there to there and there well we can't can we?
we can have one from there to there but he can't have one here.
daddy, mummy 
can he?
thinks the key was down 
i 
the
jonathan i don't really 
just a minute jonathan , let mum because the college has got one there
yeah.
toby's got one there and got the other one there.
yeah.
well what time is toby coming back?
well so he can't have that one then?
and the isle of ely college is going out for a meal, so that won't be back, so he can't have that one, so we haven't got one!
no.
for friday night, but he can have one sort of, first thing saturday morning.
but otherwise we haven't got one.
no er 
erm, and that lady's gonna ring about the fiesta 
and then that young boy's gonna ring about the van.
hooray!
but that means that won't get cleaned outside for mr
mr .
well but it's very clean inside, i scrubbed it.
mm.
and polished it.
mm.
i wouldn't of thought he'd of worried too much about the outside.
well it isn't that bad, it's only down the bottom anyway.
no, under the right hand side, there's none the left hand side well i said i only washed 
one side.
i started washing my .
who turned the light out?
i did!
why?
well that's gotta be back by nine in the morning.
yeah.
as long as he's got that back in the yard by nine.
well i did see him, he seemed alright but you see you can't tell what people are like,yo you may think they have ni 
i know.
nice personalities but he could now do a runner with our van couldn't they?
yeah.
i reckon that's what honky tonk was on the other night though.
yeah.
was he?
i reckon he's in trouble.
yeah.
so let me just think.
so well, he could have the van well how much would you charge him for tonight?
twenty quid.
yeah cos mr 's got the renault.
i told my mum 
oh in decent state he didn't last time i scrubbed well i wou 
go on monday?
no.
oh.
yeah well they sho i said i'd i was looking through this
mm 
and i was thinking cor we say we haven't been doing very well, but look at that week there!
and then look it's not 
yeah.
too bad for this time of i bet we're doing better this year, this time of the year than we did last.
yeah .
well you see you do that minibus want cleaning up, that blue one or was that clean before we put it in the shed?
no that's part of the the windows washing but i'll quickly washed over them just to spruce them up a bit but i thought if i put mrs in that, is she driving, or is she not?
erm, i should imagine so.
yes, she is.
is she?
don't she like the column change?
no.
oh god!
well i can't help it.
well you'll just have to explain to her, the other one
yeah.
hasn't come back after you've 
well no , no what i'm saying was, the fifteen seaters here you see but i can't, i shan't be put the petrol in for the both shall i?clean tomorrow night.
well i don't know what time she's picking it up at actually.
oh.
i should imagine that's his number.
what number?
i hope he paid you this week then.
yeah,.
well you with his money you can pay off them two bills.
yeah.
cos yo you don't put them through do you?
his?
have you 
no.
put any on ?
well then forget about this time, that won't hurt will it?
we've been doing alright otherwise.
mm.
pete was talking about his roly he said june, he said he is such a character!
so i said, is he?
so he he's been up he's one of type of dogs, he said like a human you wouldn't know if he went in the house they wouldn't know whether he was coming out with a double barrelled shot gun to shoot yourself or 
yeah.
with a glass of sherry in his hand!
he said he's 
yeah.
one of them types!
yeah.
pete was hoping they ain't drunken no cider!
he must have had four glasses while i was there.
oh lo erm
i shouldn't talk about him cos that's not nice and he said , i said to him .
yeah.
and there's always loads of sherry glasses and wine glasses all over!
yeah.
they must both drink.
cliff erm
they're not even afford it.
that's right.
cliff had a do again tonight with kim.
whatever for this time!
well same thing.
well i thought he didn't go down there any more?
no.
as we was just coming home.
she stood there yabbing at the end of the counter, when are you coming out!
he said oh for god's sake shut up kim!
so she said er shut up your fat !
she didn't!
he said i've told you before he said, if you ever say that again he said i was gonna knock your head off!
and anyway i walked past him and he went back and he was sh moaning at her so erm two of the old boys he'd been working with said whatever's all that about?
so there.
i said oh another one!
i want well out of it, so course she come in got changed, so he said to me i would like you tomorrow to have a word with robin about stopping her coming down to us he said because erm it makes me feel very uncomfortable he said and we had that hassle he said it's a load of nonsense he said i've forgotten 
well i suppose it does make him feel uncomfortable.
yeah he said i've forgotten about it blue's forgotten about it he said, but she won't let it rest he said he said it's well she's a child, she's only a child geoff that's 
yeah.
why.
yeah he said i'm not having he says.
she's like a spoilt child, she's gotta learn to
yeah, he said 
from there soon.
that's what he said, he said she can throw a tantrum he said and get everybody sort of feeling sorry for her he said, as and when she wants he said.
well i suppose it probably wasn't tha , a complete pack of lies geoff.
yeah so he said i i want ca , robin to stop her coming down here he said.
so you've gotta be the one who tells him.
yeah so ivan said 
well i think he's right.
yeah, so ivan said to me, he said er he said well i do i suppose you have noticed he said but whenever she comes down here he said the whole line stops i said i quite agree i said well let's be honest about it if he's knocking out the meat he , it's gotta stop cos he stops 
jonathan !
he stops talking to, stops to talk to her i said and obviously if the meat isn't coming out the box, the meat isn't coming out of the box!
well that's right.
well that is right innit?
yeah.
but she's like a child really you gotta pity her really haven't you?
yeah.
but the point is, why should other people suffer her.
yeah.
you know, they shouldn't have to should they?
no.
all that worrying!
terrible!
my best friend's lost his father and he said well i lay awake all last night thinking about it.
well i thought 
good god!
there's nothing you can laying awake .
no.
well oh he said it's at work and oh god!
well they ain't bloody paranoid isn't he?
well i wouldn't like to say he's paranoid but i said well that's like cos he said you must our house is filthy june?
i didn't pass comment.
no.
so i said well, that's like this pete, you live the way you want to and i'll live the way i want to, i said it's immaterial to me.
your paying me to keep it a bit tidy, i said and that's what i'm paid for, i said i ain't paid to pass an opinion whether it's clean or dirty he said you sound just like me june, i said oh do i?
i said well i'm not bothered what other people do, i said they can 
well if he was tidy you wouldn't have a job would you?
what?
if he kept the place tidy, you wouldn't have a job.
well i nearly said that to him, but i thought ooh no!
but, i thought to myself well that's up to him how he li , he, he lives his life.
yeah.
i don't want my house looking like a tip!
but i but he is bothered about it.
yeah.
he said and that's tricia, he said she he said when i used to live on my own with simon
yeah.
he said, and she used to come down he said she used to think i've got another woman!
li li whatever for!
he said cos i used to keep the house tidy he said i've been the in the army june an he said i can i can run a household he said but we and then working the shifts i do he said and go up the horses and that he said i just don't get time to do it!
he said well you know i, i iron mostly, most of the ironing, i said yeah i know you do.
whatever does she do then?
well well he said when he's not there she comes home she cooks them an evening meal but she's she she's she's got a p , he said she's gotta give some time to harriet, that's not fair 
yeah.
if she don't, i said well that's true i said you can't and we're not gonna neglect, which they don't.
yeah.
and then he said er by the time she's sorted out and washed up
yeah.
and i thought, she don't wash up, she 
yeah.
leaves it for me!
yeah.
erm it's tha then getting towards and she's gone down and done the horses he sh he said it's then getting to harriet's bed time so she baths her all sorts her out and he said well she does work hard, he said and by the end of that she she won't be able to do anything else!
no .
well i said i can understand that
pardon?
i i said well i suppose it's i do and he said but you work hard june, i said i know but i said kno i said what i do, i can only have hour out there and an hour inside.
yeah.
and i said i can sort of keep on top of mine, but i said i am up early.
yeah.
he said well trish isn't.
i said well i get up early.
mm.
if i'm doing like my jobs.
yeah.
i said i'm, most morning i said sort of every other morning i'm ironing here at half five
yeah.
i said because if i don't i can't pick up all this.
yeah.
cor he said, i wouldn't wanna iron that time of the morning!
i said well i'm afraid if i don't, i said, i don't do it!
that's right.
i said and i do i said i can't bare piles and piles of ironing.
so he said well if you'd have come over this morning june you'd have fainted!
so i said why?
he said well there was 
talking about fainting i still have my i can't standing talking about bloody !
what're you gonna now then?
take this bloody car up!
yep.
and he picked up four people on his, on that, imagine your the bus driver.
yeah.
a man went to edinburgh
yeah,then.
and picked up five people on his bus.
yeah.
then he got four off in kings lynn three more got on at erm queensgate
yep, come on then, get your shoes on!
and a little boy nipped on to see his mum the boy never got off so he was still on the bus
yeah.
so that 
here's your shoes.
then him and his mum got off along with the rest of the people what was the driver's name?
dunno !
your the driver!
oh !
james did that to me , me and john, i was thinking i went fred!
he goes, i didn't know your name was fred!
james who?
he was fighting everybody yesterday!
yeah!
what was the matter with him?
they were giving birthday bunks!
did you give him his card?
yeah.
he isn't having a party did he?
yeah might do.
oh i don't think he is at this rate na , jonathan!
no he might he's he might get a few friends and go out or .
that ain't tight enough mate.
yes it is!
right do you wanna quickly do these up?
no.
oh alright then, that's up to you.
no.
now look jonathan!
i'll put them in the deep part.
okay.
now look you've got to give that ticket back to mr otherwise you won't get a christmas dinner!
oh!
there it is in there, and there's ninety p , there's a pound coin in there and then i'll sort out about the dinner money with mrs .
yeah.
alright?
yeah go and leave it on the side for now.
go and what?
oh blimey .
why?
if he gets he will.
oh blow him!
do you not wanna go to ?
i don't mind.
well this is for the chris ins ,
when have you gotta have it back by?
well you can take that back now, as well.
that's on the twentieth of december in the evening time.
yeah but why do i have to take it back?
well you can take that one back monday.
i'll take it back on monday then.
shall i wait and think about it?
yeah.
go on then.
bye!
be a good boy now jo learn those !
i will!
alright, bye!
bye!
yeah see you!
it's gotten off of me.
that good is it?
now.
that away.
have you come across anything think ooh we could do with a look at that?
erm no.
oh.
erm
okay.
are you still working through past papers?
not really.
i mean she, actually she might have given us .
just been given a new exercise book, textbook.
so you've been, you've been back at school since i saw you last, and you've just 
yeah.
been working on
what?
graphs.
graphs.
important thing about graphs.
erm.
are they ?
if there was an exam question which said sketch a graph of, where would the marks be found?
what would you get marks for?
the axes.
okay, x and y. 
the points
which parti particular points?
points given for like co-ordinates.
erm let's , if they say sketch a graph,
right.
i they wouldn't give you any points.
erm directions.
or shape of the line.
okay, general shape.
what would be the interesting parts of the shape?
where it crosses through the x and y axes.
okay, x and y axes, anything else that might be an interesting point?
erm
.
just checking 
it was on at a reasonable volume.
erm end or anything else that might be interesting .
mm.
where it cross the x and y erm 
what's where are the interesting points on that?
er er er there .
okay and these are, these are fairly interesting as well.
just .
what's happening in the, near the, the limits?
as x becomes a very very very small number, or a large negative number, if you like to think of it that way, where x is very large.
so, sketching a graph is not the same as plotting one.
mm.
any idea what that graph would be?
x squared.
erm, what would not quite the right shape what would that graph be?
y equals something plus x squared.
right, there'd be some x squared in it.
and there might be, it would be something x squared, and there might be something x and er well there's definitely a constant
mm.
yeah.
cos when x is zero still there's y has still got a value.
so that's going to be minus something
mm.
so it's about minus three.
x squared cuts 
the x axis in two points.
two points.
this one
three points.
it's 
so?
x cubed.
so this is, there's going to be an x cubed term in here somewhere, and there might be x squared and xs and anything else, but if it cuts it three places, it's got three r three roots.
so it's x cubed.
what about this one?
i have to sketch curves this sort of thing.
just touches.
y equals x squared.
something like, it's going to have an x squared in it somewhere.
it's a bit lopsided, but it's 
where's the x, where's the y?
it's gonna be about plus three, three plus.
mm.
x squared.
so it'll be something like x minus three x squared.
mm.
if that's three.
just touches.
counts as two coincident roots.
two which are the same.
so x equal three or x equal three.
yeah.
sort that one out.
erm don't forget these endpoints.
if you have something like y equals x squared plus six what would that look like, going as x goes from minus infinity through zero to plus infinity?
what would be the interesting points on that?
erm that'd be six.
y would be six,.
mhm.
nought is six.
erm
what about when x is about sort of point one.
nought point one.
what's y equal to, roughly?
approximately.
just over six, six point
s 
two.
six and a bit.
erm that's when it's minus nought point one four, or plus nought point one i went through the minus point first.
it's still about six, six, six and a bit.
what about when x is sort of around infinity?
what does it approximate to?
erm minus infinity.
so, it's minus infinity or plus infinity.
when x is very large or very very small.
at minus a million.
erm
what would that approximate to?
a million plus six.
no 
do you enter a big competition, and you could win a million pounds plus six.
compared to the million pounds nobody bothers much about the six, so
just a
when it gets very large, y is roughly equal to x squared.
so if you know the graph of y equals x squared which unfortunately i can't draw tonight it's draw it for you, could draw it from the inside keep telling everyone else.
right.
now, there's a y equals x squared.
yeah.
so around here, round this bit,there won't be any difference.
hmm.
around six plus six, let's say plus six in there.
for, for some length, that'll be sort of almost flat, won't it?
i mean
mm.
till we get to x equals a one and it starts making a bit of difference, so it'll probably go like this.
okay, so a lot of it, that's a very important, those are sort of very important parts of the graph.
tend to 
mm.
get neglected.
people say oh i'll take it from minus five to plus five.
right?
if we had something like y equals erm x minus ten.
right.
times x minus erm or times ten minus x like that, okay.
funny way of writing it, but you ca you could write it that way.
ten x.
erm people might say oh well we'll take it from minus five to plus five.
yeah.
and you'd get some sort of shape.
but you'd miss a lot of important points.
yeah.
erm if they took it from minus ten to plus ten 
yeah.
you'd see a lot more things of interest and maybe say oh i'll take it from minus fifteen to plus fifteen.
but you're still missing out a big, very important part of the graph, because for a lot of its range it actually, you know, looks something like well what would that look like?
when x is gigantic.
ten times.
if, if x was a million say, you could forget about a million minus ten, let's just call it a million,
times ten 
ten.
minus a million, we'll forget about the ten, just think of the minus a million.
so it's a million times minus a million.
roughly.
a million times minus a million?
ah.
minus.
what's, okay, let's come down a bit.
what's plus three times minus three?
three.
what's plus three times plus three?
nine.
right.
and, minus three times minus three?
minus nine.
no.
minus three times minus three?
oh nine.
right.
so,.
it's a million so one million 
it's a 
times minus one million.
is?
million times 
and what is the sign of it though?
minus.
it's the same 
right.
so it's minus a million squared.
so wh when x is very big well, say, when it's big compared to ten
yeah.
this looks like y equals minus x squared.
mm.
and this part of the graph, in there i mean that wouldn't start showing until we get beyond about say twentyish.
at that point, it could be doing all sorts of weird things, and you'd think oh, i've got this wonderful graph and i plotted a lot of points close together, so i know my sketch was right, because it looked like this funny w thing or m or something 
mm.
erm it might well look like that for that very small piece of graph, but the overall picture you've lost completely by not going far enough so you, you want minus infinity to plus infinity.
when you substitute infinity in, just think well if it was about a million, what could we ignore?
i mean, you could work all this out right.
ten x plus another ten x. okay?
and then minus a hundred and minus x squared, and put the millions and things in but don't need to.
you've got it factorized like this, you could just, oh, that's about a million.
it's about minus a million, so it's about minus a million squared.
and there'll be marks going for .
it's where most people throw it away on the sketches, they just pick a tiny, tiny portion and look at that in great detail, say ah, look at that, wonderful.
mm.
but you've lost the, the overall shape of it.
tt, erm plotting graphs, you had one question didn't you where they asked a gradient?
yeah.
and you measured it with a protractor,
mm.
it was forty five degrees so you thought it was one, but the scale was two to one.
yeah.
the gradient is the tan of the angle, but you can only read that off the graph if you've got the same units.
same scale on the x and y. erm what would be let's say someone gave you this find an approximation for the gradient erm y equals x squared minus one.
x squared?
y equals x squared minus one, at around the point where x equals three.
someone wanted to know the gradient.
so, so 
ooh.
you d you'd have to find y.
okay.
so y is three squared minus one.
yeah okay.
be y would equal eight.
yeah.
erm so 
good.
right, draw a sketch, cos we need to know what we're working with here.
so y could perhaps equal three.
the rest of the graph 
the opposite point.
right.
good.
it's symmetrical down the y axis.
and the lowest point.
it'd be about one .
about one.
what's the graph going to look like here, when x is very big?
.
x is going to go up when y is a million.
x x is a million.
x is a million.
what, what would y be?
a million squared.
yeah.
so th the minus one doesn't make a lot of difference, so as x is very, when x gets very big, it'll just look like y equals x squared,taking one off if 
mm.
you're working with millions of millions.
so it looks like y equals x squared, moved up a bit, more or less, as a good approximation.
i mean a hundred is probably big enough, twenty five might be is more or less big enough.
mm.
er five, say we can have five here, you can have twenty five,over here somewhere,
mhm.
behind your shoulder.
yeah it'll actually be twenty five minus one,
minus one.
but it's a good enough approximation just to see what it'll look like.
so how do you work out the gradient?
well you see, it's pretty flattish isn't it?
the gradient of a curve is the gradient of tangent, so we can draw a tangent where you wanted it at that place.
it would be the gradient of the tangent.
mhm.
if it was at the bottom where it's flat, where you just, you're just coming down, and then you started to go up again, just at the bottom there, it's, it's zero for 
a moment.
but what would the gradient be there, and how would we find it?
er 
it would, it, up here.
so could you do an approximation, a ver just a very rough guess.
i mean does it, does it lie over that way or has it sort of gone back on itself?
lies over that way?
yeah.
is it more or less straight up?
more or less horizontal?
about forty five or?
it's probably about seventy.
right.
maybe seventy, maybe eighty.
so you could draw a rough sketch like that,
mm.
just measure it with a protractor, or measure along here.
that would be if we drew wh wh how do we find the gradient really?
we draw a little triangle, don't we?
yeah.
so at point one, it's nought.
what would, what would that be at the point two?
for x 
three.
equals two?
two three.
so we could get the point two three, and we could take the gradient of that as being fairly close to the gradient of the curve.
mm.
erm how can we get it more accurately reflecting what's happening there?
right.
point something.
so if we did something like that that's where we want it.
that's where we want the gradient
mhm.
and we took a line from there to there, where this is that's where x is equal to, that'll go far.
nought nought point nine say.
and just the other side of it, where x equals one point one.
mm.
we're going to have, difference along the x axis will be nought point two.
yeah.
find out what the difference, what the, don't forget the difference
on the y axis .
on the y axis.
so.
that's point two there.
so what's, what's the value of y going to be?
when x is nought point nine?
point nine squared, minus one.
okay.
we can forget about the minus one because we're going 
mm.
to take the minus one off again on this one 
so we've got, the difference is going to be x one squared minus one minus x two minus one is x two squared minus one, minus x one squared minus one.
and they're just going to
cancel.
cancel out.
one.
so the difference is going to be
one point one squared minus nought point nine squared
point two squared.
is it?
two point two .
can you remember the factors of a plus b times a minus b. 
a squared minus a b
yeah.
a squared minus a b
plus plus b a.
minus a b plus a b?
two a b.
no.
it's not two a b, it's minus a b and plus a b 
plus a b. 
which cancel each other out.
yeah.
erm 
then plus b times a m 
minus b squared.
minus b squared one point one squared
minus
point nine squared.
a squared minus b squared so it'll be, be one point one, plus point nine
minus.
times one point one.
minus.
minus?
nought point nine.
nought point nine.
i mean you could square them on your calculator, it might be easier.
give you twice 
two times two.
nought point two.
nought point two squared would give you what?
point four.
point four.
try it on your calculator.
point nought four.
point nought four which is s very little.
mm.
but twice point two,
give you point four.
will give you point four.
a hundred 
times as much.
mm.
so here we've got
this is less than one.
squared.
squared it gets smaller and smaller.
so that's going to be nought point four.
mm.
so the gradient at that point is about two.
erm what wh where were we where did i say find the gradient?
where x equal to three?
yeah.
sorry something wrong that.
so we'd be, oh, okay, that's good cos you can do it.
when x is three?
so when x is two point nine, say.
two point nine, and then
y
when x one see what y is down here.
it was three point one.
don't forget you can look at this, y equals x plus one times x minus one, which, when you see it that way tells you where it's going to, where its roots are.
where it's going to cut the axes.
yeah.
x so there y will be two point nine plus times two point nine minus one.
right.
which is three point nine times nought point nine,
okay.
but f we can, we can, we can save that to the end because i think that was 
aye.
confusing probably wasn't it?
when we're doing it this way, we can forget about the, with this x, x two is going to be three point one squared
minus one .
minus one.
this one is going to be two point nine squared, minus one.
yeah.
subtract them that way round.
they'll go out.
and we've got three point one squared, minus 
two point nine squared .
two point nine squared .
mm.
which will come to, if we add them it's six times nought point two.
the gradient will be one point two.
that's a bit better because a gradient of one is forty five degrees and we s we said it should be more than that.
erm one point two.
find out which ang what angle has a tan of one point two.
tan minus one .
one point two.
fifty.
fifty.
so you were, you were closer to seventy.
you see how hard it is to see just from the graph, from a, from 
mm.
a sketch, if you plotted it on paper, but this is without plotting it, we're getting it quite accurately.
erm maybe someone says it could be useful for you to try it again, without any help from this page at all.
so we've got y equals x squared, minus one.
and we want the gradient at the point where x equals three.
but we want to get very very close to it, like only nought point nought one before it and nought point nought one after it.
so what value would ?
around the point where x is three.
erm so you'd need nought in the middle.
no, i'm not thinking of drawing a sketch at the moment, we've done the sketch on the other page 
ah.
and we're just thinking of what value are we going to, what would be the value of x point nought one before three?
er two point nine nine.
okay.
two point nine nine would be one of them.
just after three would be?
three point nought one.
right.
right?
and in between would be three.
between would be three.
up one that, we'll just take .
what will y be when x is that?
erm two point nine nine squared minus one.
okay.
so you'd just write it as, i mean as it's minus one, you can take it off as you go along, but it's, sometimes it'll be a minus six or something, so write it as two point nine nine squared minus one.
erm three squared minus one.
okay.
now subtract 
when you have to 
that y from that one.
okay.
it's two point nine nine plus three point 
mm.
oh oh, yeah, don't, don't do it all in your head.
okay.
do the first stage first.
take that expression away from that, and once you're left, what happens to the minus ones?
they cancel.
right.
so what are you left with?
in terms of the squares.
two point nine nine and three point 
which one's first?
two point nine nine..
now we'll just take the
that, three point nought one, minus
right, so it's 
three point nought one squared,
minus the two point nine minus 
erm
what was the difference in the xs?
point nought one.
point nought two.
point nought two sorry .
so we put that underneath, on the bottom half of the fraction.
okay.
that's, that's now when you've got an a squared minus b squared, you can factorize that i mean you could just do that on your calculator, and do it in one go, but it's quite easy to do it as three point o one.
a plus b, times a minus b. okay?
so three point nought one plus two point nine is point nought two.
no sorry, is five point six.
is six.
and the
the top is six.
six.
times.
times three point nought one minus two point nine nine , which is point two.
equals
six point oh two.
now work out what it's equal to.
okay.
all over?
one point nought two.
right.
do they just cancel out?
right.
they do cancel out.
six.
six.
so the gradient
six .
wh when you do it to sort of fairly accurately like that, it six.
when we did it fairly roughly, it came to one point two?
yeah.
erm six because, because we didn't do this bit did we?
that should have gone i think that was wrong.
that should have been six times nought point two over 
minu 
yeah.
which again comes to six.
so, that's more like it.
what's the, what angle has a tan of six, then?
now it'll be in the seventy or eighties.
eighty.
eighty?
good.
to be fifty.
erm you can do that with any curve.
if i gave you sort of x to the seventeen or something, well you could put two values in.
and you could bring them fairly close together and say well i can't tell you exactly what the gradient is at that point, but if you draw a tiny little line and take the gradient of that.
mm.
that's er that's good enough, that's close enough.
that's a very good approximation.
yeah.
so gradients are a very important part of, of sketching a curve.
erm you already pointed out some of the important points where the gradient gets to zero.
erm does, does things that might be interesting?
okay.
you've already mentioned it earlier, actually, symmetry.
not always symmetrical about this axis.
they might be symmetrical about here or here.
or it this way round.
what's that?
what's that?
that's a .
erm
well i mean what gives you that?
what gives you that?
well, what does that look like from the way you're looking at it?
s 
the way you're looking at it, it looks something like erm y equals x to 
x 
the fourth plus three or something.
mm.
good.
so looking at it this way up i mean it's x equals y to the fourth plus three and that's all minus.
mm.
x x equals three minus y to the fourth.
it's a funny way of putting it.
yeah.
but you could write your equation that way.
er if someone says that's not good enough, i want it in terms of y equals 
well okay we'll have to bring the three over to this side, and take the fourth root,.
but you can always swap the axes, if you don't like what they give you.
mm.
so if, if i say draw erm y equals the square root of x, and you think i haven't got a clue what that looks like.
you can square both sides.
you can draw y squared equals x, and all you have to do is say well, i can draw the other way round.
mm.
y equals x squared.
you draw your y equals x squared,turn the paper round that way, and whichever way, i'm going to draw y equals x squared.
and erm y equals x squared, and that's y and that's an x. then turn it the other way up to get x equals y squared, and now that's the y and this is the x.
and this is a, should have drawn it that way round,
mm.
to get the, the x squared, this would be the minus x squared.
mm.
x squared look like that.
y squared equals x.
yeah.
erm you don't have to do that very often, but it is sometimes, it fits.
it's handy.
rather than doing it the other way.
what, what have you been doing with graphs at school?
erm
sketching and plotting?
there's the revision .
.
have you done every one?
every question twice three times?
four, even.
oh, that's too many.
no actually,
oh you'll have to 
oh i'm sorry, i'll go back to three .
you'll have to do them all you'll have to undo
do them or something.
that's it.
do them all backwards, yes.
i haven't got it with me.
mhm.
yeah.
okay.
so you've been sketching them?
yeah.
and plotting them?
mm.
have you been erm
speed-type graphs.
mhm.
good.
aha, have you been asked, erm what is this?
here's a graph, now guess the equation?
no.
no.
okay.
you don't really need to, but it's, there usually isn't time to cover it, cos you've got other things, but it gives you a much better feel for it if you, if you see the other side of the picture all the time.
that you're not just in isolation, looking at one little thing, because you can miss a lot.
erm you might think that all graphs always look like that, or bits of graphs are always like that, or where does it all tie in?
distance time graphs.
one of those on every exam so far.
mhm.
yeah.
yeah.
are you happy with those?
er i think so yeah..
okay.
what's, what's happening here then?
this is a good way
we do them in physics.
oh lovely.
thanks very much.
okay.
i 
right, that's erm as time goes on along there,
mhm.
this is displacement, which is the distance from a fixed position.
come from that way.
bit of negative time in there.
what's happening there then?
well it's speeding up to there accelerating and it's 
mhm.
it's speeding up again.
what's happened?
that's, that's, that's a, that's a straight line, and you say it's speeding up?
that seems to imply that, i don't think it's speeding up,doesn't it ?
yeah.
erm
so the gradient there, is s over t, how far you've travelled.
let's say these, let's say we mark this off in one second intervals along here.
if i got the intervals right they'd be the same.
so every one second, it's gone another ten metres or so.
yeah.
gradient is the same all the time.
ah, so it's just steady 
fixed constant speed, constant speed.
how about have a bit so that bit 
erm don't know.
mm.
s i'd say that's ten metres or something.
where are you after one second?
ten metres.
ten metres.
where are you after two m ?
ten metres.
mm.
it's not moving.
mm.
as time goes on, its distance stays the same.
now it looks like, ah just stopped moving again, straight line, fixed speed that, this looks as if it's accelerating.
it's very, it's deceptive if you're not working out what you're doing and relating it back to the graph, and relating it back to physics, to an experiment you're doing, someone's checking the clock every second to see how much further it's gone.
oh well, in the last second it went another ten metres.
last second it went another ten metres.
it's going at a steady speed.
fixed constant velocity.
but here, that's still where it was last time i checked my watch.
yeah.
not moving.
so that's a steady speed.
and it stops.
that's, it changes abruptly.
from a steady speed.
it doesn't need to brake or does it just?
mm.
if it's a physical body, to change speed, it'll have to have to brake.
and the s what would, so, that's a fixed speed.
there's another str another straight line .
there's another straight line, another fixed speed.
which one is faster?
every one second,ten metres.
every second that's going more than ten metres
right.
so that 
so the steeper it is?
the faster.
the faster it's going.
so at this point, it's almost flat.
so it's going very slowly.
now what's happening to its speed?
accelerating.
yeah.
the speed is increasing.
sort of 
stop.
sort of actually stops, and then it's going very slowly again for a bit, and then what happens here?
very, it just goes very fast
right.
in a very short space of time then, but then carries on.
very short space of time it's gone quite a distance.
so that was a, that is at, that constant speed there is much faster than, than this one.
and then, it's stationary 
it's 
for a while.
and then
just goes down there.
what's happening here?
deceleration.
well let's make, let's make this bit a straight line, from there to about there.
that's a straight line.
so, well let's go back to the physics.
we've just been going on timing it for one minute or something.
and we time it again, one minute and one second 
it's reversed.
it's reversed.
how far away was it when i started the watch?
thirty metres away.
how, how far is it after another one second?
twenty metres away.
ah.
ah!
it's coming back.
okay.
so that's going backwards.
most graphs will keep going on up, and there's a tendency for people to make them come back down again
mm.
or at least to where they started.
that means it's going backwards.
erm now you don't do, paper three, you don't do velocity time graphs, but you probably do them in physics don't you?
you would do them in physics.
it's just like pure coincidence.
aha!
oh that's a good one that.
revising it yesterday to be honest.
that's a good one.
got all pictures in it.
yes it has, but these are, those are, i've seen those before and they are very nice graphs, i would recommend them to anyone.
right.
so, you were revising them yesterday.
should i 
well the big thing, ah.
see, it's very easy to get confused between distance against time, speed against time, and even acceleration against time.
yeah, because i mean it had them in our exam,
right.
in our mock, we had like those four pictures, and you had to say which was
it comes up time and time again, and you have to know the difference between the different types.
so you also, when you get used to each type individually, need to then be able to switch between 
mm.
between one and the other.
yeah.
so if we've got erm acceleration against time and we get, no, no peeping.
no peeping.
we get a flat one, what does that mean?
it's every one second, you've gone further.
we haven't gone anywhere 
we've measured the acceleration.
the acceleration there is say forwards.
one two 
and for every one second, you're going forty metres per second.
so you're going at a steady speed.
per second.
it's, it's a, it's an acceleration, it's metres second to the minus two.
now are you happy with that, because most people aren't?
okay.
we'll come back to that in a minute, but let's say a rocket, or a car, which would you prefer that do?
car.
car.
constant acceleration car.
erm no frictional resis resistance, you just put your foot down and it's, you know where a car accelerates from rest
mm.
and then after a while the acceleration reduces?
the speed is still going up, the acceleration, and eventually it reaches a top speed and it stays there.
mm.
okay, it's zero acceleration, it's not getting any faster.
mm.
erm how would we measure that?
a constant acceleration.
say we had an accelerometer.
an acceleration measurer.
mm.
which force on a weight or something can feel acceleration, i think you can, my son said you can't but i think you can 
so, acceleration is a constant.
what's your eventual top speed?
it just, just keeps going faster and faster and faster and faster 
infinity.
infinity, speed of light, when you hit something.
it's pretty high.
mm.
erm now how are we going to measure acceleration?
let's say we've got erm a radar for, for measuring speed
mm.
velocity.
okay.
and we'll set up a, so we're going to, you, you devise an experiment, neil.
measure acceleration.
there's a car, and we want to know its acceleration between two points.
doesn't matter.
there's your car.
erm you start the stopwatch.
er stopwatch you m you time it from there to the ten metre.
erm what's along your x axis?
your independent variable?
time.
time.
so, when would you next check its acceleration?
would you measure in terms of distance 
or in, in terms of other time 
time.
ten seconds.
ten seconds.
we'll make it one second.
okay.
make it one second.
alright, make it ten.
sorry,, make it ten seconds.
plus one second.
then the you have to have y how far the car has travelled,
do you?
know how quickly.
what is acceleration?
give me a figure, that you might have seen in an advert, when you're drooling over bmws and things, maseratis.
miles per hour.
telling you about its acceleration.
what does it say?
goes from nought to sixty.
good.
in?
six seconds.
six seconds.
nought to sixty in six seconds.
so those are the units of acceleration.
from one speed to another speed,
in however qu 
in so, so much time.
so let let's say, instead of quoting from nought, they said well a much more useful figure is perhaps, which they do quote in lots of these car magazines, is erm forty to sixty
mm.
because that's what you need for overtaking someone.
you can go from forty to sixty in point three seconds or something, you can really shoot past anything on the road.
so forty to sixty, miles per hour, metres per second, whatever you like, let's say metres per second.
let's say it goes from forty to si forty metres per second to sixty metres per second in ten seconds.
more of a slug, this car.
so what would that acceleration be?
how w what would the units of acceleration be?
twenty metres per second per second.
twenty metres per second, per second.
per second.
it's simpler to say per second per second .
it's or per second squared, or second to the minus two.
what is this rubbish, it doesn't, doesn't, cannot possibly mean anything real.
mm.
well, it is real.
it's erm fifty miles per hour per hour.
yeah.
right well we'd normally say, miles per hour per second.
what's, what's your acceleration at the moment?
well it's ten miles per hour per second.
okay?
well every second, i'm going 
i'm going ten miles an hour faster.
so miles per hour per second, or you could measure it per hour if you wanted.
every hour, i'm going six hundred miles an hour faster
so
so it's miles per hour per hour.
you'd need a stopwatch and a speedometer.
you'd need a something to, i say, we've got something to measure the speed, radar gun,
mm.
not interested in the distance, just the velocity, the speed.
how fast is that car going now?
okay, he's doing forty miles an hour.
measure him again in one second's time
he's doing sixty.
he's doing sixty miles an hour, so his acceleration was twenty miles per hour per second.
per second.
twenty miles per hour per second,miles per hour, what's the change this miles per hour into metres per second.
okay, so,say a hundred and twenty metres per second per second.
and that's where your per second per second comes in.
are you a bit happier with that?
yeah.
but not totally convinced.
no .
erm that length per time per time, is the unit.
let's just have a little look.
what are the units of displacement?
er 
what's the difference between displacement and distance?
displacement is how fast it's going, the speed.
miles per hour.
show me something that is erm arm's length away from, from your right shoulder.
okay, show me something else that's an arm's length from that's your right shoulder isn't it.
arm's length .
i was expecting you to go like this.
right, okay, that, show me something else that's arm's length from your right shoulder.
right.
up there 
right.
that's distance.
mm.
displacement is distance in a specified direction.
so if i said show me something that's arm's length from your right shoulder north, or up, or west or some way, okay, or on a bearing of thirty seven degrees 
yeah.
that's displacement.
we don't usually tend to bother with distance much, so when, when the police measure your speed, they're actually measuring 
my dad's 
your 
my dad's speed.
your dad's speed.
not mine.
you don't drive?
no, no, no.
yeah, of course.
can't be my speed.
not unless i'm on me bi on my bike, and i doubt if they'd measure me .
you, you did eighty on your, on your bike did you?
over, over fifty on a pushbike.
do you know bo ?
yeah.
you know ben lech?hill, red hill going down to ?
i was young and foolish at the time,
fifty miles an hour on a bike ?
very, very high gear on it, we used to go out a couple of us 
and er we were passing this m 
you've got this on tape remember?
oh no!
we went past this bloke in a morris minor,
a convertible, with a eyes streaming, it was really hard to see, and clocked his speed at fifty, and er the bloke behind me nearly got hit,because when i went past this bloke i went 
all over the road.
no you didn't really though did you?
ooh no.
no, no you didn't.
no officer i didn't.
distance okay?
yeah.
and displacement.
when they measure your speed, they're measuring your velocity really, they're measuring it in a particular direction, along that road.
mm.
erm so we'll call it distance, right?
but we're actually talking about displacement, just so that you feel more comfortable with it, cos there are other things coming up to make you feel less comfortable you see.
okay.
so the police say you were doing forty miles an hour.
you say how do you know i was doing forty miles an hour?
i wasn't driving for an hour, you weren't following me for either an hour or forty miles.
they say, ah well, we followed you for a tenth of a mile, right, and it took you so long to cover that.
and we, our little machine here has calculated it that that's forty miles an hour.
yeah.
okay, so what did they do?
they had your hundred a hundredth of a mile say, let's say it's erm let's say it was a tenth of a mile.
nought point one miles.
and they divided that by erm nought point o 
hours.
mhm.
right?
and they said you did point one mile in point o o one hours 
hours.
so what speed is that?
er
have a guess at it then check it on your calculator.
point one divided by point zero one .
will the two first cancel out?
do they?
no.
if i gave you this tenth, hundredth, thousandth okay?
what would you do?
run.
that's hours.
are those?
that one and that one cancel.
it would cancel out.
so you've got one over one hundredth.
so that's a bit tricky that, doing it that way, you've got one over one hundredth .
the, the easy way, do you like fractions on the bottom of fractions?
no.
oh, times by ah.
what are you going to times it by?
times that by ten over one.
no, times that by a thousand over one.
times that by a thousand.
okay, and you've done, you've done that on one bit of the fraction, so you must do it on the top as well.
times that by a thou aargh.
you've got to times that by a thousand.
okay?
it's been at the playhouse in past years though.
oh, well maybe.
no, it wasn't, wasn't at last year was it?
was it?
well last year i did it at latton bush .
well what, what's the date?.
the seventh.
the seventh of march.
erm, so that's going to be before our next meeting isn't it?
so erm, if anybody wants to help contact me .
yes, what time, how much is, how much the day is it all day?
i haven't any details either than what she said .
no .
erm, shall we erm see, what shall we do about this, it's saturday the seventh of march, on a saturday
as i say i'll take a stall and i'll be there all day if anyone can help me.
right , well perhaps i, perhaps people could as actually come and speak to me afterwards, if they, if they think they could help at all, that's international women's day and all the local organisations have been asked to take part 
certainly , it's, it's for your .
it was quite good last year.
yes, and we could sell our products and that's sort of thing.
yeah our things ,.
and that's a good way of advertising our .
mm, right, we've got a list, ah, you probably know, there's a list, a list isn't there, of, of sort of sale products, have you had that at all?, thing that came with us, with your, with .
no .
yes i got it, but you may not of had it.
i will pass it on, i will pass it on to you.
we, we sell quite a lot of amnesty products, a lot, a lot of clothing in every
on tonight.
yeah.
tee-shirts and er sweat shirts and all sorts of things so we can take them along, so that's, that's saturday the m , seventh of march, if you think you can help at all see avriel afterwards.
have you got a date?
yeah, got a couple.
anything you we got some of those things, tell me, i'll bring it along .
mm, yeah,.
right any other future events that ought to be mentioned.
erm, i suppose i don't know whether we ought, whether we should mention it here, erm, the, the national a g m is a future event really isn't it?
yes,.
erm.
brought it with me.
er.
.
and what are the dates again, i think it's the weekend before easter isn't it i think?
er, oh.
april
run out of hold on.
right, april, april the tenth to the twelfth, is the, is the national amnesty a g m which is held over a weekend and this year is in exeter .
exeter .
the twelfth.
exeter, er so that's the weekend before easter.
er of april.
and we, we normally have members go, we've had as many as five one year, or was it six, erm, not always that many i think, was it three of you went last year, i think it was three wasn't it?
three last year.
yes, erm, and, and we, were prepared to subsidise as far as our finances would allow, you know people who are going, but ex exeter is quite a long way, so the travel is going to be something isn't it?
erm
well i think
who's, who's thinking of going?
i, i, i've booked, erm
oh.
out comes yeah, so .
you thinking of going erm
yeah i eh
peter?
should still be going, yeah.
sari's going.
sari's going .
oh sari .
yes i spoke to her .
yes, she's definitely going isn't she?
mm, mm.
any, anybody else.
anybody else thinking of going?
any other offers?
cos, cos you're going by car are you or?
i'll, i'll drive yeah, so there are three seats spare in my car, vehicle.
so that you plymouth .
instead of writing a check, send the cheque .
if you can stand the strain of the noise and diesel engine all that way.
.
all the girls in the back.
you can get there, you can get there, perhaps, if you can get there
i've got a seat in the back mate.
you can get there on motorway, erm, all the way practically, can't you?
.
mm.
you can get there on motorway all the way.
i ha i haven't looked at the round there, yeah, i'm, i'm sure it's not too bad really, you know, you know .
m four .
right is there anybody else cos we have got forms haven't we?.
.
it's not that long if that's the case then, er, not that long a journey either.
no.
it's motorway all the way.
erm, anybody else interested for it, you said not didn't you.
it's not to late to book i think it says something about surcharge after sixth of march or something on the form doesn't it?
we'll make it .
i don't think she was in no.
.
right, does saria had a form, she must cos you said she's booked, peter have you g , peter you've got forms have you?
don't think she has got a form, no, alma have you got any spare forms for that.
no, i think i've distributed them all, didn't i?
mm.
we could get one from british section couldn't we?
you think, i thought you said she's booked, she hasn't booked.
oh no, she's definitely wants to go, but she hasn't actually filled out the form .
well, she's, she's going to it .
erm, yeah i think she said she'd get one directly.
erm.
i think er, i guess that any individual members would get them in their, erm journal.
yes.
i might, i might, yes, we, i, well, i'll, looks like it .
i'm an individual member, perhaps i've done, got round to opening the .
i'm not sure, i'm not sure, they, they have been there .
that's possible .
.
quite happy you know telephone them to send on
ah, right, well, we'll just check, yeah.
cos that's when, when, when we get to that nearer the date, we could, we could just, you know, when you're confirmed that you've been booked and you're definitely going, erm we could look at the finances and see how much we could afford to, to give, erm, something to each person to help with,eit either with the accommodation or, or the transport.
mm.
cos the accommodation is quite a bit, isn't it?
it's fifty , sixty or more, probably more this time.
no .
seventy six pounds .
it's seventy six pounds .
mm.
more of sixty five last year.
mm, yes.
erm.
that's nice, i'm, it's very good that people are going anyway, it's got
that's for the whole weekend
mm.
.
mm.
erm, say anything about that?
well it's not sort of place you can get it to, before, before breakfast is it, so er, no.
mm.
it's not, we, we have sometimes gone very early on a saturday morning to places like nottingham, but, it's not too far for that.
right, well that's good, erm, and, so in, in relation to the a g m erm we did, we were asked about putting in motion's erm, are you having to leave the one about the press after what john said?
how do you feel?.
one, what, one that we erm, one, yes, yes, but as a group why don't we review having another prisoner when we got
when we got, when we got the next one yes certainly.
yeah , and then to see.
mm, mm, right and are we, i mean if anybody still wanted to put in a motion, there is still time just about.
yeah about , just about, yeah .
but eh, you'd have to have it sort of written out and more or less ready i think to go.
all groups are invited to send resolution which may or may not be actually debated but erm, we, we don't normally send one in, but some, some groups they send them in, no, no one 's thinking 
think the closing dates a few days time isn't it?
thursday.
thursday, yeah.
oh, right, so it's very close.
got to be ready tonight, if they're to get it.
no.
right, erm, so, i think, i think, as far as future events that's all what we need to mention?
now, erm rose is secretary and she's had things through from er british section headquarters and she'll tell us what she's got there.
erm i don't know if this one concerns us, it's about er, a working group for children, do we have, we don't have a working group for children .
no, we've never been very close to the now.
i won't obviously .
erm, i've also received information from the region, erm with lots of events that's coming up in the east anglian region, erm, just run through those quickly, er, there is a workshop on this thursday at the courts , erm, there is on thursday twelfth of march there is er, somebody from the columbian committee for human rights speaking at an open meeting, that's the fifth er, wednesday first of april there is er somebody called duncan , he's a paediatric surgeon who works part time as a volunteer at the medical foundation for the care and victims of torture who will be speaking at st. mary's and st. edmunds group, and that, that's bury st. edmunds, and then the next east anglia regional meeting is on saturday may the twenty third at bury st. edmunds again.
may twenty third?
yeah may the twenty third, it's a saturday two to five pm at the friends' meeting house, bury.
bank holiday weekend isn't it?
i don't know.
that's all from region.
er, i've also received minutes from the epping forest from redbridge group and they also have a lobbying workshop erm, that's on the second of march, and they're asking if anybody's interested in that.
is that an evening?
it doesn't actually say
i think it's
but, er, probably would be.
if you're interested could follow it up.
they meet in, don't they meet in leytonstone or was it wanstead, somewhere in that area.
wanstead
mm, mm.
was, was, where they help islington.
monday mm.
would you be interested in it?
well i might this, this, the time fitting in with the families, they're, they're likely to come back to
okay, well i'll, i put some information not full details .
right.
erm, actually there wasn't a lot of detailed stuff, there was erm, materials for gr groups and winter sales
do you want to pass that over to aida please?
which we have a erm, there's a bit about release policy and procedures for local groups, er, groups can help their prisoner with mummy or other erm relief, erm on the christmas family particularly and it's, it's explaining you know how they do it and the best ways to go about it.
mm, cos there's a special fund available for that, that's particularly why they 
anyway they explain all about it, if it would, if we need it.
er, there's a mandate workshop.
oh they, no, sorry,, they're offering still a mandate workshop for the group, erm, sending a trainer
i'm the trainer.
you're the trainer, oh well .
i've been very bad on this recently, i've really been too busy or tired, but i have got, i have, today i have had arrived oh not today, the last few days, the new mandate workshop, so
so you've got to read through it and let .
i was gonna say, having spent some months or years well .
it's all the new bits in about it, yes mind you, there's always, always been a mandate, the mandate workshop was the very first one that's produced, but this is an updated version and changes .
yeah, have there always been workshops , continue workshops on mandate or?
yes, there's always been a mandate workshop?
or just when there reviews?
no, there's always been a mandate workshop, explaining why, you know, what our mandate is .
you, you did give once to a group a few years ago.
yes, i've done the mandate workshop, yes, and i've done it with other groups too.
mm.
so you've covered a bigger region in the past, not just stortford.
i, i have about five or six groups, i can, i can go and give talks .
so even if we don't call on you to, do it, you won't be called .
and i have a lobby workshop too.
amnesty's mandate what, what the don't do, or do do.
will there be any erm talking about lobbying, be in, in erm before and er .
i don't know .
done any .
.
so the er lobbying workshops is the
.
that's why they're being cancelled
epping forest and redbridge are doing, erm, they've got some lobbying workshops
mm, presuming it's got that in mind
yeah, i mean he is .
.
lobbying workshops would be that combined, erm there is er, a one page journalist leaflet which we can order a pound for a hundred, that's it, that's all our journalist friends .
, yes that's , erm yeah, i, last month i received the er, this booklet on the trade and they seemed to be coming out to doing campaign on erm a collection between british training and goods, er and their use abroad erm, and they now, they've got a, a booking form for a fringe meeting at the a g m, if anyone's particularly interested attending.
shall i pass, shall we pass this one .
.
yes, the report on this, this book.
yes,there are, there are feature on the, just highlighting a couple of case for these, i imagine a problem book
yeah.
and, there is .
it is a good book that i, i've read through that, it's quite an informative.
it was in one of the sunday .
it's called the m s p, the military security police, mm.
security 
.
i could, seems to though they're getting stronger on this than .
mm, it's come to the front of the journal hasn't it section 
yeah.
mm.
one, one er stress in my, on what happens so that, that it's companying it's been manufacturing leg irons that's been going out there to the nile, hasn't it, wasn't it to .
they didn't mention , they'd mentioned somewhere else, but erm
somewhere.
i think it was central america wasn't it?
wasn't it saudi?.
no.
saudi they had some sort of electronic torture chamber 
thing electric was 
oh yeah, the erm, the house of or something.
yeah.
wasn't one of the chair was, though the man held up, held arms was it?
he wasn't an, i think he was .
oh, perhaps erm
got a number of .
yes, mm, one wonders what a british company are doing manufacturing leg irons anyway in the twentieth century .
no when you get to, when you get to the magazine, i'll see on the front cover .
yeah.
it's not it's very .
right, anything else from headquarters?
erm, i know there's a world conference at the assembly, central hall, westminster, twenty second of february.
it's bury st. edmunds interest in asian we generally go if we've got an asian prisoner, we haven't, perhaps it's of opinion .
sorry i missed that, asian week.
as 
conference, on the twenty second of february.
er raffle tickets, have a raffle ticket.
.
i'll give it to peter, are you interested in that peter, or .
.
er this is erm, er this is the spring, can't read out what it is, the spring, this is the great spring raffle, amnesty does get quite a lot of money from the raffles, er they start off with just the christmas one now we have them all through the year i think,
.
and they, the first prize is a thousand pounds cash, second prize family holiday cottage in the isle of mule and third prize holiday cottage in norfolk and fourth prize holiday apartment in cumbria and the, i mean the idea is you take a book and try, if you have a place of work or, or friends that will buy raffle tickets er just try and sell them and er, how much are they? er
fifty pence each.
fifty pence each, right, erm, and er fill in the slips and either bring them back to us or send them off yourself to headquarters, shall i put, i'll put those out for anybody who feel they could sell them, it all, it all helps to raise money for amnesty and helps to get them erm spend the money on the new prisoner's.
yeah, i have a complimentary copy of new internationalist i'm not quite sure why they sent them, but 
it's on, it's on the right .
yes , it's, it's got stuff that we could use that's all.
mm.
er, the news letters we get, monthly news letter for groups, er, this one, which is all about what different groups in britain are doing, can give you ideas .
were not gonna have , were not gonna have quite enough are we this time, i think if perhaps the people who come regularly, erm perhaps could take first, erm i don't know, you, we have ten, is it ten?
yeah, and i've taken one.
mm.
.
they are interesting, i mean then, they're, they're, got quite a lot of information on about what's going on
yeah
within british section
yeah.
anyway.
i'll erm, the international news letter which has lots of groups and details about people getting killed.
mm.
what's going on .
erm, and then if anyone wants to look at these, look at the er ninety one annual reports
haven't seen them.
and these booklets that are .
has that recently become ninety one, one?
no, we had these two meetings ago, but i bring it with me on meetings for anyone who's .
yes, and people should tell you if they take it,mm, mm.
okay, that's all.
right, very good, that's all from headquarters, right then we move on to then any other business, erm i think mainly it's just the odd verse with arrangements for next meeting, because our next meeting is our own a g m, erm, at, which we erm elect our officers for the next year, er, and there are, are other arrangements to make, erm we sometimes put a little form don't we on the end of the minutes that, people to fill in if they wish to nominate someone, i think we should do that even though very, very rarely gets actually filled in, erm, and we have some post which we have elections for others where we can phone the people who are doing those jobs and, and hope they'll carry on.
and i think the, the erm, the jobs which are elected are the chair person and, do we still have a vice chair person? are you still vice chair person?
i .
well john and i are both chair person, are co-chair at the moment, erm
yeah, we don't, we don't seem to have a vice chairman, looking at last years 
perhaps, perhaps, perhaps it was because of that we didn't have it, and the treasurer and the secretary are officially erm, and we do have constitution don't we now of course, so we can look at the constitution and see what it says
.
erm, i think what those post were, were erm elected and then the 
means we've got to produce .
.
right, we, we, we did actually draw, or we not draw, we, we adopted a constitution during the year and the officers that are erm elected are the chair, the secretary and the treasurer, erm and other, together with other such officers, yeah to to determine by general meeting, erm, so it's really only those three, er and we have sometimes had advice chair if there's only been one chairman haven't we, one chair person erm so i think people need to say if they don't wish to carry on the jobs they're doing and if anybody wishes to nominate anyone in a particular post then slip at the bottom of the minutes could be filled in and either brought to meeting or sent back to the secretary.
erm, i think i will give up being chair this time, i've done it too long, too long, and i've had it john as co-chair during the year and i hope that he'll be able to carry on as, as chair person, i think really i've done it, done it for long enough erm, and we'll have to ask, we hope, we hope the treasurer just taken over will carry on
.
erm, and if anybody else has any other post they, they're interesting in doing in taking on or, or would like to help with that could be said as well couldn't it?
well are we then not going to have another co-chair?
well it depends how you want to deal with it, i mean erm, this, the, the, the i think it was just my idea last year of, of sort of erm sharing some of the load i think at that point and hoping that someone could perhaps take over, erm, this just says the following should be elected, a, chair, b, secretary and c, treasurer, but erm
well, i, will, you know, i mean, will carry on as chairman, but i, i'd welcome competition in the post if anyone's interested
.
but, it's unfair saying that i erm, i,continue in my inefficient way if you're all willing to put up with me.
i think if, if you are going to be the only chair person then there should be a, there, there should be a, a deputy so if you're not able to take the chair, there is somebody else .
perhaps, yeah, yeah, yeah , erm
somebody could perhaps sat and
perhaps that's that's a good idea .
that, that person ought to be elected as well.
mm, what under, that'll be a what vice chairman or
well was to be chairman, was to be vice chair now under these this new .
is it in the constitution?
it isn't in the constitution, no.
no it isn't is it?
.
no, but you
.
mm.
not, not very good at drawing up constitutions are we?
it does actually say together with other said officers and committee members as shall be determined by a general meeting, so if we wish to elect or choose somebody else we can do.
erm, but there's be a good idea to have
she's taken someone's .
well i think, we'll, we'll see what, we'll see what comes, if somebody else wishes to compete, compete for the chair, the post of chair, erm, then you may perhaps like to invite them to share the chair with you, or, or, they can become the, the vice chair.
erm, erm, only too willing to welcome competition cos they're all to aware of my short comings, mm.
mm.
erm, so.
well, if, if there isn't anybody else who wishes to compete with you for the chair, er, then i think there ought to be a vice chair.
yeah.
right.
now the other thing about, about the meeting is erm, we sometimes arrange for sort of special refreshments or something different in that line, it's at ann's house, erm do you want, do you want us to do anything about that ann or?
yeah, interested in any spare wine glasses please.
sorry?
bring some spare wine glasses, i've , i've got some wine glasses.
wine glasses 
what we have, wine and soft drinks and
what you want six?
cheese and biscuits?
a little bit of that yes, to have afterwards mm?
.
cracker wheat.
cheese 
.
cheese and biscuits, she's saying.
what do, do you want help with that ann, would you like people to bring some or, or, or what?
.
mm, well confir you can confirm with mary, i think mary's offer to possibly.
shall i, shall i leave you and mary to sort that out?
okay.
between you, mm, mm.
what date is it?.
i'm not sure what date it is, i haven't got it on here have we really.
is it the tenth?
no the eleventh.
the tenth.
yes, it's not going to be the same day because it's a leap year.
it's the tenth then .
so it'll be what, what did we say the tenth what did we?
mm.
right.
tenth of march.
tenth of march.
where's that then?
that'll be at erm ann i've forgotten your number .
.
that's fine, what's the address?
oh sorry , ninety four.
.
is this all .
oh yeah.
yeah..
get rid of that on tape, yeah,we won't be transcribed.
why you writing it down for?
so, that the next meeting.
right, that's, good, that's it , without, without your tape recorder.
.
right, erm, so, now that's, that's er the a g m, now erm, any other business?
.
right, let see, erm, er, who's got their notes?
ann, did you say yes?
i said yes.
right, ann, you gonna start?
well, this, i told you about this french boy that phoned, that contacted me, he's erm,my name is , i'm nineteen, i'm a student at harlow college, i'm studying english foreign language and law a level, if there's an amnesty international i would like to set up a group in the college i hope you're involved in local groups are writing you to receive about me,and information about the local group .
so i well i sent him er our sheets, er sheet about the group and the minutes and er i contacted michael er, who said he'll be very happy to help in, so i er phoned up this chap and said, gave him michael's number and said erm he'd like to come to this meeting tonight, he said yes, so i went to pick him up and i just couldn't find that blinking house, anyone who knows harlow, he's in parsonage leys, i just couldn't find the number it was , i just couldn't find anything less than thirty seven
.
and i had, got pick up two so i, i just had to give up, i phoned him up when i got here, apologise, he hasn't been in touch with michael yet, i don't know why not, er, though why, er sorry 
erm, there used to be .
sorry, there used to be a group at the college i think.
yes, yes.
well there used to be that's right,with you john,talking about college group just about that time .
erm yes and it's, it's funny thing i haven't sent things to the college with, with the other stuff that went out, but, er we have, i have spoken to michael about college, yeah i mean .
so we didn't, yeah well if we've got someone's who's interested in starting a group, that's the time which to start, we did, yeah, but there was a group, er previous thing but i think that, there was one girl who was very er keen, but i think when she left it probably lapsed.
mm,
but.
yeah, yeah, i did, did discuss it with michael, i'd forgotten that, i just remembered now .
maybe, maybe i don't know if he's shy or anything, why he hasn't phoned up michael yet, perhaps i ought to ask michael to phone him then, he does , yes.
maybe, yes , we have, we have approved school or er student group officer so we should perhaps let him you know, perhaps we should, perhaps we should come back to him or michael could.
mm.
well, shouldn't, shall i
should imagine, mm.
take that number from you, cos i'll, i'm probably going, probably be seeing michael this week,.
do you want the letter?.
yes, okay.
right, that's fine, well i, that would be very good if there was a group at the coll at the coll at the college, there ought to be one at the college
mm.
of all, of all the
mm.
you know.
oh, he's only, he's only there till september till
oh, great.
he's only there till the summer, by the way.
yes, well perhaps we could get it going quickly then
.
right, erm, now, er, do you want to say something?
i did, yes, erm, when erm, we thought our prisoner was finished the co-ordinators wrote to me and said would i be interested, would our group be interested in erm, writing to yugoslavia's still, because with the civil war going on there's lots of cases coming up, for example there was a whole hospital full of patients that were taken prisoner i don't know if they were actually physically removed or whether they were held in the hospital without access to medical treatment for something like ten days, and erm, saria did say she'd help me last time and i wrote back and said yes, two of us could write once a month, well they're taken that very liberally and, and, got two or three things from the already and erm, if anyone else is interested in writing an odd letter say once a month to yugoslavia maybe they could erm, let me know later on..
good, that's fine, right, any other business?
shall we have just a quick lisa and dean want to tell us what's going, cos they've had you, had the first meeting now, haven't you?
do you want to tell us what interest there was.
i, i was about to ask the same thing, yeah .
are you going to,interest .
well i called a meeting but i didn't think i advertised it well enough because there was a lot of interest and then i think we held it at the wrong time as well didn't we,
mm.
we held it after prep, so we've organised another one for tomorrow lunch time and erm and lot more people express interest because of that, we haven't actually got any letters yet.
no, that's so when we leave there should be more interest.
mm, mm, good, good.
and i'm intending to, to hold a few more assemblies as well to sort of get interest going again because it's been a while since we did an assembly on it, so if we do another one, that usually gets it going again doesn't it?
what you run assembly's with on, particular topic then.
yeah , well we'll take erm michael gave us say erm a, an assembly sheet didn't he and we just read from that, and that got a lot of interest from that.
yeah 
mm, good 
how many teams were suppose to meet out of that?
it was about twelve people.
how many is that?
.
there were a lot more people than that.
that was last week.
i was gonna say, there were a lot more people when we went to school.
there are a lot more people than that, there, i only put one advert .
well that's, that's, lot more people who are interested .
right.
even so, that tell us .
ah right, well yeah, i suppose 
advertise in stortford
twelve is a working number.
oh well i hope, i hope it goes right tomorrow.
yes.
yes, good, good, just keep in touch with us and know how things are going.
yeah.
are you, you keen to keep in touch keep, keep coming to the meetings or?
yeah, mm, mm.
yeah.
you found it's contact, yeah, good, erm
right, now, erm
smashing.
anything else you want to bring up?
erm.
yeah.
right, rose, next leave your bit.
oh, i, i got something right come on.
go on rose.
yes, i had a request from speaker at birchwood high school and have a name of somebody there, i think it's a teacher or pupil but
a lot of people would say .
did you send it out to them rose?
you know when we did that .
yeah, i think i do, yeah birchwood .
that was margaret dane, what it was, yes.
yeah.
the name of the person is linda er
what, what, was it a request for a speaker?
yeah.
yeah, right why have they sent that to you?
yeah, cos michael's name went off to that batch that was sent out.
you know there,, i, i wasn't actually in, but that was the message i got so.
cos you see, perhaps it didn't get to that teacher, you see, that's what happens, the letters don't always get to the right people.
yeah, mm
although
what's the name?
linda .
mm, i've got a mr, head of humanities mr i .
there we go, so who, who is, this person is i don't know, that's their name i have now, that's a .
yeah,.
so that'll be a speaker day .
okay.
.
will, will you follow that up?
you, you've got the name of the person have you?
erm,shout that out again and
erm, birchwood high school.
no, the, the, i've got all that
linda 
linda , yeah.
yes, it'll be worth following that up, cos that's, that's one of the erm, they, they've done quite a lot of work of amnesty and general studies in the past, there was a sheet of sort of quotes of, how good the amnesty was, and there was one from the teacher at birchwood or what, what's margaret dane school, so erm, yes, if, if you could definitely follow that up erm john
yeah.
cos that'll be a very useful school to have interest .
erm.
erm i also have a letter er from a kate , i'm not sure from which school she goes to, but she's fourteen and she's going to one of the local schools,
mm.
but, erm, she was hoping to come to the meeting this evening, but she phoned at the last minute and said she couldn't make it, but erm, i don't know if it would be more appropriate perhaps for the schools groups to get in touch with her and i 
did she leave her name and .
er, yes, but i, it's at home.
yes, could you, perhaps you could find out which school she's at
yes, okay.
erm.
could give her a ring, find out what school she's at and then 
and then if, if it's fine with her, we'd have some, well you'd let you know,contact 
, what's the time .
alright, yeah, okay.
right.
because it's, i mean it would be very good if we could have several schools
yeah.
interested.
er have you got, all these people waiting to be told .
.
right, i hope, we won't be to long now, perhaps if we could just bring up the item you wanted to mention.
yeah, erm, right, yeah, that's all the other items, erm what's been er been going through my head recently is, is er the, looking at the pattern of the meetings and the way the meetings are arranged and, and how, erm, at the last meeting we had a speaker er and that i think, we all found that quite interesting and the one, one from central america that things and i feel we ought to have that much more frequently than we do have er, a, either a speaker or a focus of some sort of meetings erm, so i think that's something i'd like to raise and get the a g m at the next meeting i think similar thing we ought to consider there.
erm, quite how we arrange cos this, as margaret says there's a lot of business to get through on occasions, but er, this, this meeting seems to had a lot, but, you know, er whether we could alternate er a business meeting with a, a, a speaker so i thought functional meeting every two months and a speaker attending er, er the other month, erm, i'm really sussing it open for ideas, what, what do other people feel and
maybe we should have speaker on a separate night .
mm, well, this, or is everybody happy with the, the format as it is? er.
is it not but er
yeah.
speaker's a very good idea, but difficult to organise,
mm.
i think a, every so often it'll be very interesting, very sort of, we did try this once didn't we?
this, this has cropped up before, oh yes this idea of trying to change this .
michael , michael started the ball rolling in my mind, er, yes he, he, i, one thing erm yesterday, erm one thing he, he started to coming to more meetings last year and erm i think he'd seen one or two people come along and not,
mm.
a couple of new people come along and then, not, not follow up 
yes, there can be.
mm, erm, and he wh you know he is thinking well is this, is that the reason erm, so er, i don't know, you know, er, i, i think perhaps it's worth looking at, perhaps we can all thing about it and have a look at it at the a g m.
i think, i think it would be a good idea to have, as every sort of maybe every two or three meetings to have something a bit different erm, and we do, we do find if we want to get through the business quickly
we can.
we can, we can.
we can.
pressure.
we can do, we've just got to, i mean we've just got to ask everyone to give a very brief report erm on another occasion and then it can be kept very short, i think though, there are, there are times when, when, you know, we do want to hear what's going on with sort of er networks and campaigns, we do need that time as well don't we, er so we can't, i don't think we can always do it.
well i'm, yeah, ern i wondered about sort of executive committee and er, i know you're not very keen on that idea and it, it does tend to remove information from the ordinary members, if, if, you have a small group of people dealing with the business and, a, a separate lead.
we have had that in the past haven't we?
we
i can't remember.
remember we used to have a prisoner group didn't we, when i first came so that the
what groups, yeah groups for particular things on, on the, you know like campaigns or prisoners there were special groups dealing only with this those, they met on there own, not there weren't any
schools groups.
yes, the schools group, yes, i mean, that, that could operate more, in fact we could have, instead of having just talking about the, about the india one, er instead of having one person at it, it could be a group of, of three perhaps, er .
but then they'd still presumably report back to the main group about what they'd been doing.
yes .
yes.
so you're really, in a way, you're not much difference than where you started.
i think margaret's right, if, if we really want to get through the business we can and however busy we are, erm .
i wouldn't we wouldn't to every time, but i mean it can be, it can be just a very brief report on what's happened, you know, if we want to get through.
if we said, like, if we, every second month say or every third month, then we, we knew we were going to have a speaker, we could the time before we could then do the business more thoroughly and carefully so that the month of the speaker we could just go through it very quickly .
.
alternatively to, alternative to, to speaker, can we get erm, you know, brief films about different countries and, political systems and so on.
mm.
yes, yes we have the video too, we have, we have the erm the amnesty video and we, there are, there are schools videos to.
do, do, do they do different videos for different countries?
not, they're not, no, the one i've, the one the group has is, is a general one it's on amnesty's work .
oh, i see .
yeah, yeah, there probably are ones on different countries.
i'm not sure that amnesty does produce on, on, one particular country.
erm, we have.
other organisations that
yes they might, yes, mm.
though even that's the sort of thing that on t v that er
we can video ourselves.
that's right.
mm,, mm.
yeah.
yes, there are a lot, mm
there's all these workshops margaret.
yes, i, i, i have about twelve workshops.
.
on all kinds of things.
.
on all kinds of things, yes.
i enjoyed that very much that last one.
what was that one?
what was that one?
it was about death penalty wasn't it?
.
there's all sorts like, like recruiting, making contact with the schools, er, lobbying, er, there, there about ten or twelve different workshops now, almost on almost every aspects, so and that would be something that we could give, if, if these weren't .
but there has to be one guarantee in because i think once we had rather good one, about six people kept, you can never tell how many come, i mean you'd want maybe bigger, more than, more space in this room.
well, we've, have got another room maybe we might sometimes be able to use haven't we?
well we could use the .
or your dining room, yes.
it's probably better that
mm, we often need to use one more than one room for those.
mm.
mm.
though we do seem to be doing quite well in numbers.
yes, we have lately, yes.
better than last year.
that suddenly, i mean it means you divide into smaller groups quite often, and, and have discussions on you can, yeah..
speak on what you've got.
no, might be my speech, do we need a, meet, meet in a more public place, erm.
no, no, we can't.
.
but you, erm
.
yes, yes, you, you.
erm, your business would take care of itself if we have that pressure of booking it,.
i honestly think it would.
i think if anything, i'm sure it would.
yeah, mm, sure.
i think.
i'm sure that it would make us more careful the months before.
mm, mm.
right, going on the streets think it would, going to find that many people that, that could speak to 
that was
erm, sort of relative.
yeah, that, that needs something if you actually set up a system and then a business meeting one month and a speaker the next, it puts a lot of pressure on one of us or some of us to, to , erm, this is true.
maybe, maybe, maybe if, i think it sounds as if people would, would like that, you know, at least every few months perhaps to have something different
yes.
maybe, maybe, people could just be thinking or, you know if they hear of somebody who might be able to come and give a talk like your friend who, who was very good, erm, you know, we could make a note of it and, or ask people, you know, could talk to talk or something that sort.
mm, mm, that sounds a possibility, i think, i think it is interesting to have someone like that you know
mm.
like we had you know, who could talk about experiences you know, in a, in a particular country where there are human rights and problems, good.
right erm, so that's it, is that all the
.
business?
yes, just, just, remind people the next, the next meeting erm, is tuesday the tenth of march, we always meet on a tuesday evening and it will be at ann's house in harlow, which is , said on the tape .
must be of benefit.
.
right, er, people can take what bits from tables they want them, or, i've got s , i've got one put out, erm, shall we open that door a bit, it's getting a bit hot in here, erm, don't know if mary wants any help out there.
good.
testing, testing.
okay right, so what we've been looking at this week is trade in agricultural commodities, and er, possibly a little bit of gatt as well.
and i believe bob has asked you to er, i think, collect some data erm, on trade in wheat and cotton erm, as an example.
we'll come on to that a bit later on.
but can you just give me, sort of, a brief overview of what's happened to the composition of world trade right, say over the last hundred years or so.
what have been the main features?
well the er, proportion agricultural trade has decreased.
right, correct, okay, erm what absolute, the absolute values of trade.
so the relative share of agricultural trade has declined, the relative share of manufacturing trade has increased.
how about in absolute terms?
it's increased.
yes, that's right.
all trade has increased.
why, why has trade in all commodities, agricultural or non-agricultural increased?
better transport links.
okay, how does that affect trade?
well it's easier to transport things overseas or wherever.
also storage is easier, improving 
right, super, anything else?
population growth.
yes, populations have, have increased.
technology.
yep, i mean that might in a sense 
yes, we're gonna get 
transport technology has er, certainly er, certainly improved.
right, okay, so, in ge in general, we can say that world trade has risen over time due to essentially, well, is that, is there anything else that?
more countries have er, a big surplus, and more countries having a big deficit in food supply
yes
so therefore 
so that says something about specialization of production possibly, that countries are now more highly specialized than they once were.
yep, i mean, that in a way is a function of, leagues with which international trade can be conducted.
you know, if you, if international trade is very difficult as it was, say two hundred years ago, then you've got to be self sufficient.
whereas, erm, you can now exploit individual countries comparative advantage of this trade erm, is, is rel is relatively er, is relatively easy.
are there any other factors, that might have increased, for an incre might have led to an increase in world trade?
rising population, improving transport and technologies.
i know this might sound obscure, but erm, i read somewhere when that erm, if you actually bring in protectionism, it sounds like it could actually increase trade.
if you bring in protectionism?
don't know how it worked, as in 
as of, liberalize, or if you increase
no, if you actually, you know, if you have a little protectionism, it does actually lead to an increase in trade, but i don't know how that works.
neither do i.
no it doesn't, you know it doesn't.
i really didn't expect
right, okay, let's say that's a new one on me.
okay.
well, we'll come onto protectionism in er, in a minute.
what other factors, there's a big, this fact that we're missing, alright, rising population, improvements in transport and technology, what else has happened over the last hundred years?
increased consumption.
yes, that's right, or right
income.
yes, income, that's right, incomes have risen, er, and as a result we're consuming more goods, consuming more goods it, it followed, well not automatically, but there's a likelihood that trade will also, will also rise.
okay, so, that's, they're the reasons to account for the rise in absolute values of er, trade in all commodities, what about erm, why has the er, trade in manufactures er, increased as a proportion of total trade?
i mean, it's not divorced from the things that we've just been talking about
well, cos incomes have risen so, there's more consumption
okay.
specialization as well, er
good right okay, i mean, what income elasticities of demand for
higher for manufactured goods, or high relative to agricultural goods
okay, so, because income elasticities of demand are generally high for manufactured goods as the world economy gets richer, it will want to consume proportionately more of those.
right, now, we could all become self sufficient, alright.
but why don't we be become more self sufficient?
you know, we can produc we could consume a lot more manufactured goods, but that doesn't necessarily mean that trade will rise.
it's likely that trade will rise, but it doesn't automatically follow.
what's also happened to trade in manufactures?
it's specialized
that's right, okay.
to, well, produce constant
yes, that's right, you've got because the, the market for er, any one say manufactured goods, in theory could be a, a world market now because there are relatively cheap methods of transporting this er, this particular good.
what's happened is because the potential market has risen, firms have specialized.
alright, and this is why we get, erm, cars are an excellent example of this erm.
you know, toyota, toyota's plant down the road in derby, massive investment, erm, a huge production capacity.
that makes all the toyota corollas, or whatever, not only for the u k, or for europe, but for all, all, all sales of car throughout, of that particular type of car, throughout the world.
you know, and even in erm, japan, they're importing the, the products that are made, made over in derby.
why're they doing that?
it's because manufacturing production erm, or this great scope in manufacturing production for economies of scale.
alright, this is why countries have specialized more, because countries specialize more and consumers want to demand,want to consume erm, higher quantities of er, manufactured goods.
alright.
trade automatically follows therefore.
right, we need the specialization and er, the sort of demand elasticity erm, in that argument to suggest that world tra to explain why world trade has risen.
what else, before we come on to agricultural products,what, are there any other notable features of trade in manufactures?
alright, it has risen, right, risen very dramatically erm well, let's try and rephrase this, erm, what's another major reason for the growth of manufacturing trade?
manufacturing trade is, seems to have grown very rapidly, not only because we're producing erm, or con consuming more of a, a particular commodity, but also because consumers like
opportunities in taste.
changes in taste, yes consumers like 
consumers like to have variety.
yes, consumers want more, more variety, as well as just more, more consumption, and this is why, you know, although we produce cars just about in, in the u k, we still import a lot of cars to the u k.
what's that, what's the process of erm, simultaneous import and export of the same commodity, what's that called?
erm, intra, intra-industry trade.
yes, intra-industry trade.
and that's the simultaneous import and export of essentially similar products.
alright, now, they're not exactly the same products, but they are very similar.
you know, erm, as far as the statistics might go, you know, a car is a car is a car.
so you lump them all together, but we know as consumers, that, the skoda is inherently different to the lamborghini or something, alright.
excuse me.
hello, tim speaking.
hello marina.
very well thanks, and yourself?
right mhm essentially yeah, use it as a, erm, as a motivation for the, for the tutorial erm,partic particularly the, the first part of it, talking about gatt, sort of erm, the er, sort of characteristics of trade, how it's changed, indication of protectionism.
no, no they don't.
well, yes it should, it should be, and there's some good figures in there that you may want to tell the students about, and then what i would do is recommend that they have a look at it because the current issue.
that came out of the current issues in agricultural economics book.
alright, if you tell them erm, that's where it came from, there are copies in the library, it might be a good idea that they have a look at it.
alright?
that's it, that's o that's okay, i don't think there's anything else, okay, yes, okay, cheerio, then marina, bye .
right,erm, yes, so,inder intra-industry trade is growing very, very rapidly and that, and this is, sort of the main, one of the main reasons why trade in manufactures has grown rapidly, rapidly.
why's intra-indu intra, intra-industry trade grown?
well, as consumers, we like to er, consume differentiated products, right.
manufactured goods are easily differentiated, right, you've only got to bung power steering on a car, or a few go, go faster stripes and you have you know, sort of, to the consumer, a different product.
right, although it is still a car, it's, it has different attributes.
alright, so there's plenty of scope for differentiation, product differentiation.
and also, erm, there's great scope for economies of scale er, in manufactured goods, therefore consumers can benefit, right from er, exploiting the comparative advantage in particular, in particular countries.
production tends to be focused on very large plants, erm, and each plant will produce erm, a particular good for the whole world market and so therefore trade must, must increase.
so, perhaps those explanations might account for declining er, relative share in agriculture as well as the increasing share of manufactured goods, because the other side of that coin is, well, income elasticities of demand for agricultural goods is less than unity so there's a de declining sector aspect there, erm, is it easy to differentiate agricultural products?
very difficult.
right, it's not impossible because what tends to happen is that you can erm, you can change the product mix of what the consumer receives.
instead of him just buying purely the raw commodity, you can er, change the, the degree of processing erm, the quality of, of the product, erm, so there is some scope for different product differentiation, but certainly not the same scope that there is in manufactures.
do you think the scope has increased because of erm, packaging or whatever?
mm, i mean that's, it's, you know, a potato is a potato is a potato, in, you know in commodity terms, but you know, you can change the way the, the product by attaching lots of services to that raw food product, and that's where the scope for differentiation comes from, it's the, the combination of attributes in er, agricultural goods so you've t v dinners and all the rest of it.
erm, how about economies of scale, you said that was important the increase in manufacturing trade, you know, implies that products will be produced at a lower unit value, and therefore benefit consumers and er, therefore increase his trade cos consumers will buy the cheapest product if that comes from abroad, so be it.
so what about economies of scale in agriculture?
do you think there are economies of scale to the same extent?
no.
why, why not?
it's more perfectly competitive, isn't it, i mean it's produced say, the scope for it is less because it's on a smaller scale in general.
mm, that's right, i mean the fact that agriculture tends to be perfectly com right, why there tends to be a lot of independent small producers is because there are no economies of scale, you know, apart from beyond, you know, a certain size of farm, you know,stud studies in the u k show that once you get, get beyond about two thousand hectares there are, there are significant dis-economies of scale, and although there are economies of scale up to that point, and that's only in the case of very specialist types of production, by and large once you've got a farm in excess of five hundred hectares, erm, you start to run into dis-economy, and mostly managerial dis-economies of scale.
that's not the same er, well that's not the case with erm, with things like car man car manufacturing.
i mean we can toyota can produce, you know, sufficient corollas or whatever it is that they make at derby erm, to sat to satisfy the whole of the world market for that particular car, just from one plant.
and that one plant occupies about sort of, one hundred and fifty hectares or something like that.
if you wanted to erm, er, satisfy the demand for a particular food commodity you'd need erm, an area equivalent to the six biggest states in america.
clearly,that's not feasible.
there's a geographical dimension involved in agricultural production, that leads to dis-economies of scale.
alright, and er, essentially land is the constraining, the constraining factor.
right, because we need land to produce food, more so than we need land to produce cars or tape recorders or whatever that sort of militates against economies of scale, and that's why we have erm, a large number of relatively small producers in this country and throughout the world.
erm, it's because you need land, and er, the bigger the area of land you've got, the more time it takes to get your combine harvester from one side to the other er, and so on and so forth.
so, the optimal size of plant in agriculture is very, very small compared to the optimal size of plant in manufacturing.
okay, and that could be another reason why international trade, erm, has, had declined relatively in agriculture.
now anything else that may have accounted for the erm, decline of agricultural trade, and the increase in manufacturing trade?
because of erm, protection policies,
mm
like erm, the c a p in france.
that's right, i mean protectionism in agricultural goods has risen, particularly since er, in the last fifty years.
risen dramatically, whereas in the same period, protectionism on manufactured goods has generally er, fallen, alright.
so protectionism is probably quite important erm, reason.
why, why erm, does protectionism reduce trade?
reduces the erm, extra erm, revenue you can get from exporting or, or it intro increases the cost of importing 
okay, yes, that's, that's one reason, yes.
reduced through retaliation.
okay, yes, leads to retaliation, anything else?
leads to loss of market.
mm, yes, leads to loss of market, you know.
if we're self sufficient due to a policy that subsidizes our farmers, we're not going to want to import anything.
so those are all reasons why trade in agricultural goods may have fallen, is protectionism in ari agriculture is second to none.
there's no industry that's erm, as heavily protected as er, as agriculture on a world scale.
okay, so what, so what other effects does protectionism have?
it reduces er, trade in agricultural goods, anything else?
what about prices of agricultural goods.
they go up.
sorry, sorry what?
prices of, on the world market.
right they'd certainly go up in the domestic
yes
erm, domestic country, or the country where the protectionism is in place.
well, that must reduce trade as well, cos if, if prices are high in the domestic market, they're not going to want to sell them in another market are they?
no, yes, that's very, very true, and that's the effect of protectionism, is to increase self sufficiency.
alright, however, if you want to sell.
yes, it increases self sufficiency, what about the prices of agricultural goods on the world market?
the size of the world market in agricultural erm, goods and the volatility of prices on the world market?
aren't agricultural prices subsidized twice, they're subsidized to the farmers, so the farmer gets x for growing it which increases the price automatically on the market, but aren't they subsidized so they can be sold abroad?
yes, that's, that's true.
so that's well, before we can go in, launch into this, i mean it's often said that erm, er, well, one of the major reasons why agricultural commodity trade hasn't been included in gatt, like virtually every other er, product has been, is because governments are saying, look this is a domestic policy, it's got nothing to do with international trade, we're supporting our farmers, it's a domestic policy.
it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with trade.
now, clearly that's a very naive way of looking at er, protectionism.
but that's the main argument why agricultural policies have been allowed to increase in their severity, rather than erm, fall.
that makes no sense, because they're selling that product abroad, the farm product, many of them are.
they might be, they might be, yes.
if they are selling it abroad, it's international though.
mm, ah yes, you can't, any domestic policy has international ramifications, if it affects er, resource allocation and, and demand and agricultural protectionism, like any protectionism will, will er, will reallocate resources, not according to comparative advantage, but according to some erm, some priority, we want to support our agriculture, therefore we'll erm, give agricultural producers a lot of money.
now, clearly that's going to dis distort trade because, if we're increasing domestic production come in, ah, hi mervin.
sorry, you alright for tomorrow?
yes, i can go to the lecture, but i'm teaching at eleven like yourself.
i'll er, i'll see you if win's free at, at eleven.
yes, yes, i've been to se i've a couple of people up to sort of promise a hand 
yes, is, is, is tony, is tony er, busy as well?
tony's got a le meeting at ten thirty.
ah, which won't finish 
fortunately i wasn't expecting to be lecturing, but er,
right
i've had to lecture for paul
right, well we'll sort, we'll sort something out, but i'll see if winnie's, i'll see if winnie's available.
yes, yes, i'm sorry about that, yes, yes, okay.
i mean if the worst comes to the worst, we'll sort of, cancel a lecture, or something 
ah, well, it's only a matter of giving them a cup of coffee afterwards.
right, okay, i'm sure we can go, we can look after, we can get robert in or something 
yes, that's right we just get, just grab a couple of people.
sorry to disrupt your class.
that's okay, i'll, i'll sort it out anyway, later this afternoon, yes, yes that's right, yes that's it 
okay, ten o'clock, eight thirty nine.
do you want me to introduce us?
yes, if, if you want to, just to let the students know
sure, yes
who he is, and why he's there.
that's, that's grand, thanks, melvin, cheers.
yes, yes, okay, thanks for everything.
erm, right, where was i?
yes, so domestic policies, you know, can not be viewed at in isolation, right.
all domestic policies will have international implications okay, and it's something that er, governments tend to erm, sort of over overlook when they're arguing the agriculturalists case in, in gatt.
then don't you think given that case, we should set up a whole inter international thing, which oversees all the governments?
well that's what gatt is really.
that's what, you know, that's why agriculture is trying to be, sort of er, subsumed within the gatt.
yes, but it's failed.
well, it's, it's failed at the moment, but as, you know, if you've seen on television, or read a paper lately, you know, you've got ten days to go 
before erm, you know, if we're going to get a gatt agreement, you've got ten days to, to negotiate it in.
ten days to 
er, yes, yes, that's right.
there's a lot of brinkmanship going on at the moment, a lot of er, horse-trading i dare say, going on as well.
erm, but er, okay.
erm er, okey-doke, domestic policies will affect world, world market.
it's likely, will world market prices fall?
or rise as a result of protectionism?
rise.
why might, why might they rise?
because they cost more.
what costs more?
erm panic
it may not do
you know what tends to happen, is that world prices fall, alright, in the presence of protectionism.
alright, because what you're doing, is that you're increasing domestic production.
right now it serves its purpose, and increasing domestic production is going to increase world production, if there's more supply, prices will fall, if everything else stays the same.
so what tends to happen is that world, world agricultural prices fall, right, and that trend has been observed erm, er, it's an im empiric empirically, agricultural product prices tend to have fallen in general sort of, over the last sort of, eighteen hundred years.
yes.
so that, erm, the fact that you're increasing erm, protection, protectionism against it, isn't it likely to upset the producers who are exporting it, and who say it's no point exporting it there cos we're going to get erm, huge thing put on our things and we're not going to sell that much, it might be better just sell in our own country, isn't that reduce world tr 
no, no eventually, protectionism will, will lead to a cessation of production in the most efficient er regions of the world which by and large, are the, are the regions that sell onto the world market.
it's only the inefficient producers that support their agricultures, because it's those inefficient producers that need support, erm, so, in the, in the long run, world supply, world supply will contract, but in the short run, you know, farmers in these er, efficient countries of the world may well erm, continue in production because they may, may be able to cut their average variable costs, it's only when in, in the long run, you know, providing farmers can cover their average variable costs, they'll continue in production in the short run.
right, in the long run, they've got to cover all their costs, right, they will be driven out of business, but that may take some time.
alright, so in, in the short run, because more is being produced, alright, and demand has been increased very much, or in world terms, then market prices will fall.
all market prices will fall.
and world market prices also tend to fall because these erm sort of protectionist programmes are often too successful, so not only do we reach self sufficiency, but you reach the status of net exporter.
now, for net exporting, for a net exporter, so our production exceeds our own consumption, how the hell do we er, how the hell do we get rid of it?
do we just burn it?
or do we dump it?
what tends to happen is that domestic agricultural production has already been subsidized, alright, it's subsidized again, only to, to be sold on the world market.
the world market becomes a residual, a residual market as a result, erm, you know, because we're dumping cheap products, you know, and the, the only way we can sell european grain right is to, is to undercut the world market.
now, because we're a major player in, in grain markets and most other markets, the european community, increasing its supply on the world market will have a non-trivial effect on price.
prices will come down, right.
erm that's what we observe, is that protectionism leads to a lowering of world, world prices.
what about the volatility?
does protectionism have an affect on volatility do you think?
right, think of it like this, if, if all countries of the world, right, engage in free trade, there is no protection.
alright.
then, the world market, alright, is, is the, is the world, is the world market.
everybody trades through this, through this world, world market.
as a result, if there's a say, bad weather in the northern hemisphere affecting supply, right, that may well be offset by good weather, or average weather in the southern hemisphere, right.
as a result, erm, prices won't be quite as volatile as they are in the opposite case, alright, when the world market, and virtually nobody, let's assume that virtually nobody uses the world market to trade in, they've all got their own agricultural policies, right, just a few countries trade in the world market, it only takes erm, a, a sort of poor harvest, or a very good harvest in any one of these erm, er, sort of protected countries, in order to get rid of this output, they'll put it on the world market.
because the world market is very, very tiny now, because nobody uses it, that will have a massive effect on, on world prices.
so what you tend to observe is that when protectionism, when everybody protects, or when a lot of people protects, the world market erm, becomes a sink right, for any excess production.
right, it becomes a residual market, right.
you know, if you can't sell it at home, you know, you get rid of it on the world market.
now, if the world market is very small, then the term world market is a bit of a misnomer when er, when most countries protect.
the world market becomes very, very volatile and er, so protectionism tends to lead to erm, to price volatility and this is one reason why agricultural markets are so volatile.
right, it's, it's because world markets are residual markets because there's so much agricultural protectionism.
okay.
right,erm, why bother, why bother about agricultural trade?
marlon, why're we all het up about, about agricultural protectionism?
what are we going to live on?
sorry?
if we don't live off agricultural trade, what are we going to live on?
we have to keep the track all turned on.
i mean, vital to life 
well yes, but it only represents two percent of g d p in this country it's, it's insignificant.
ah, that's the thing, it's not insignificant.
because if you stop agricultural production, you're going to be in big trouble.
right, okay.
why might we, we be in big trouble if it's a problem?
what, what you going to eat?
well, could we not import?
exactly, and then if the world broke, world war breaks out?
okay, so there, there is this strategic argument.
okay, but why do we get the, the main thrust of erm, to the economic argument seems to be that we ought to be liberalizing, we ought to be facing that erm, that problem.
you know, that problem isn't the most important one.
why, why do we want to liberalize world trade?
so we can reduce the prices that we have to pay for everything.
you know, beef and things that we have to import from the e c at the moment, we could import from like, new zealand.
it's far away but it's a lot cheaper to produce.
okay, so consumers would benefit erm, from liberalization.
presumably, also tax payers would erm, tax payer cost of er, the common agricultural policies is substantial, and most the support comes from er, most of the support under the common agricultural policy is given er, in terms of higher food prices that consumers pay.
there is a different n there is also however, a tax payer burden in that some of our taxes that we pay to go erm, into agricultural support, i mean v a t for example.
virtually all of v a t goes to , you know.
you know, you pay v a t on everything, er, so consumers would benefit, alright, in er, protecting countries, tax payers should benefit in protected countries.
any other beneficiaries?
developing countries may now find a market.
that's right, so implications there for developing countries, who are typically very dependent on agricultural exports as a source of export earnings.
it's through foreign exchange earnings that they can develop.
right, if you're cutting off their, their lifeline to development, you're probably sowing the seeds of er, of disaster further down the line.
it's not only the developing countries that are dependent upon agricultural exports, new zealand, australia, argentina, other what you might not call developing countries, are also erm, reliant upon, is reliant upon agricultural trade.
so, who, who are the beneficiaries, are there, are there any beneficiaries at the moment of liberalization?
clearly farmers in protecting countries benefit,any anybody else that benefits?
from protectionism?
mm say if you're on the world, if you, if you're a net importer, right, erm, and you're buying your food commodities from the world market, you must have been rubbing your hands over the last fifty years cos you're getting , you're buying, you're buying a food commodities will lower, lower prices than you would have done in the presence of free trade, cos there's all this dumping and european surpluses, you know come in
yes he is here
win
yes, erm, sue's after you, if you going, she wants to know, can you go to lunch in ten minutes?
when,
one o'clock
no i can't come, i'm dining with er, charles and a post-grad.
so gerard's his name, erm, remind me to see about, are you free tomorrow at eleven?
yes, tony's just dropped that on me
oh
from a great height.
no i'll, i'll speak to you, i'll speak to you later.
erm, er, clearly if you're a, a net importer of agriculture, you have benefited from other people's protectionism.
okay, and you will suffer as a result of liberalization, and by and large those costs, or those benefits that er, reaped at the moment by those countries are very, very small in comparison to the, er, the costs of protectionism to the rest of the world.
right okay.
tell you what we'll do is er, leave it there now.
i would recommend you do is look in this book, there's a coup a couple of copies of which is, i mean er, is in the library, right.
current issues in agricultural economics er, edited by your lord and master, professor rayner and also a chap called david coleman okay so, current issues in agricultural economics by a rayner and d coleman.
but if you look at chapter four in that book, we have the title, agricultural trade and the gatt.
alright, now the first part of this chapter spells out erm, er, developments in agricultural trade, why it's, why it's fallen in relative terms right.
it then goes on to look at the costs of protectionism so they're, they're looking at erm, the numerical estimates as to how much erm, protectionism costs,not only for domestic producers and consumers and tax payers, but also for third countries.
it then goes on to look at erm, why agriculture hasn't been included in the gatt up until now, and prospects for a solution within the gatt.
this er, although it's not on your reading list, erm, the reading list that bob gave to you, er, it, it should be.
it's essential to erm, to what you've been going through in the last, in the last few lectures.
readable, full of erm, empirical evidence about costs of agricultural protection, and what's happened to agricultural prices and i re i do recommend that you have a look at it if you, it's an invaluable if you look at anything, look at, look at this one article.
and there should be a couple of er, issues of this book in, in the library, okay, right, well thanks very much.
have a very good holiday and er,tomorrow there won't be a normal agri-econ lecture, there'll be a special lecture, but it'll be in the same place, same time.
hello, tim speaking, i was on my way charles.
okay, i'll see you in a minute.
bye .
right, that's it.
right.
got well loads of homework tonight.
got any merit marks today?
er one yeah in maths ooh er
for the class work look at that homework i got two wrong and in science steady should be finish.
try doing that.
i can't.
are you coming to the fair tomorrow?
yes 
ah?
yeah.
are you going?
half past ten to half past twelve.
is dad?
could do love cos i've gotta get er karen's er card.
what from the fair?
yes i might find something there.
there's some good things but th they don't do cards.
what sort of stalls are there?
no i got the cakes does it look alright paul?
could of got the but they're there .
so will we got to that other place dad?
yeah hopefully ring up her ring up er ticket line see if it's er they might be 
a day 
about a day yeah.
day what is it o eight nine eight one
o eight nine eight four hundred three three three.
alright.
in that one paul and i are going into work, alright?
is that alright?
yeah he's going to do his homework there.
i have a 
yeah i know you out who takes you tonight then?
mark i can't remember gotta get 
cleared up before sunday i've gotta go at nine o'clock tomorrow morning to get the cake.
yeah.
twenty third.
where's the calendar gone?
have you got it?
by the phone oh no it's this round the erm on the table i might you change you can't go.
make a other meeting.
yeah i've done the booking.
well that's alright we can go w whe y you if you're at mencap oh you w 
i only said we're getting a lift and richard to write a letter to join the dance.
why is tha why is david involved in that all of a sudden, it's not through us is it?
i dunno still right 
dad it's the tenth of 
it's very odd isn't it!
december.
what?
tenth of december.
oh right.
oh!er look i mean it at all unless david gives me a little 
may other meeting.
that's a good reason for david to give me a lift isn't it?
he won't mind will he?
you'll have all re you'd know where it is, won't you, by then?
well i know where it is i just don't know how to get there.
normal squad for tomorrow .
do you hear gary lineker's got his son's got 
yeah.
but it it's not life 
only fourteen 
life endangering though is it 
only fourteen babies under twelve months old get that every year!
god you know you are lucky wouldn't you?
the irony of it is this is that he has done a lot, he gave ten thousand 
yeah.
pounds, is it, not to the leukaemia was it or w was it?
think it was cancer childhood cancer or something.
yeah it's almost though he knew, it weird!
i mean fourteen babies a year that can 
get leukaemia?
and as well as his son?
no ah yeah under twelve months old only fourteen babies a year get it oh that's dreadful!
how old's his baby then?
well it just shows you how famous he now means you are.
mail and it says about what a lovely family they are and how it's gotta 
shame!
be good that a such a er erm show what a perfect family how they sort of go through it all.
it said a lot of people who're watching how they react?
yeah by a family who knew them personally not off .
will he still be playing for tottenham, mum?
will he still be going to japan.
ask at your your christian union about sunday and bring that up, sunday lunch we had a right old ding dong at work today!
what about 
trev 
it?
trevor thinks it's not stopping you going to church he said.
true.
dad can i have your quiz can i have the quiz.
no we're gonna do it tomorrow morning no i won't.
how many questions are you gonna have in it?
dad?
what?
how many questions are you gonna have in your quiz?
dunno i 
hello is that john?
i n i like the new quick ones 
it's ruth here.
than the ones in the
i don't know how to tell you this i can't i can't 
lot's of 
make the tenth !
well i i i could but all 
we'll go through go through some papers and start cutting out things 
and i a chair for the
only thing if i if you do it 
even in the chair for a meeting
you won't enter the quiz so what do you wanna do?
about erm 
would you rather me do it on my own 
i think 
and then you can enter with cos i thought about sticking everybody into pairs 
cos they've asked me.
mean i won't be able to enter 
the quiz?
well you'll know the answers won't you!
oh i want that some if all the social services just put in with the thing having 
please can i a ask the questions?
a series of six meetings about this 
now let's have everything tha i want to aim a at doing any oral questions just 
ah?
like
a lot about it and shan't be, frankly i'm relieved i don't actually know a lot but when the meeting to discuss what we're supposed to do is on december tenth yo so i'm a bit torn cos i in a way that's what i ought to be doing even though the welfare business in a way that's wh that's what i ought to be doing cos it's entirely .
would you like paul to buy presents tomorrow?
for me at the fair?
oh well he says he's got e he's got enough now hasn't he?
no you want one!
to give to me on sunday.
oh i see.
still put that aside .
oh trevor was quite good he di he d he would've got his big pay rise today an didn't push it too much i don't think perhaps it's nick though 
why's got a big one?
well he got promoted didn't he he's stable now that child though hasn't he?
until they start tre tra blurgh they start treatment straight away don't they, these days.
oh he's only twelve and ended up as one of the smallest birds 
but it said i heard that it said chemotherapy well what's that's erm drugs is it, no that's radiation isn't it?
makes your 
oh y 
hair fall out 
well you wouldn't give that to a little baby would they?
well you'd have to.
i thought they washed the blood out changed all the blood.
blood type and that's what that other woman died girl died of didn't she they 
i was saying to trevor it's it's not very nice but it's rather so much better than than than having a cot death isn't it?
if you see what i mean.
mm.
i can actually imagine the feeling of going to a cot and then finding no no the child was dead, that's awful.
done there was a our school dinners today i went into this give you four pounds back i get twenty two pounds sixty have you got two tens in change of a twenty?
i haven't got five pounds 
have you got two tens you want to change for a twenty paul?
no sorry.
that's been quite good that cos you know i had a hundred and ten pounds left
mm.
i only took out the palace because i knew i'd given i'd written a cheque for forty 
you'd written out a cheque 
and i've only just started, still got two people outstanding so i've got that forty pound and i put that into the building society and use that forty pounds for months see so it kind of like saved it for me, i've managed, had to do without it
yeah.
and er
when have you got to pay all that.
what mu a a th agent says i only have to pay it off a day 
how much is it?
what just write a cheque?
yeah and that way .
well you won't be there on the day.
well dave'll be down there today.
well not you can't pay on the night, can you?
well i suppose i'm sure adrian won't mind if i paid him the day after or a week after or something.
you're unemployed i wouldn't have thought you could've stood a hundred and fifty, two hundred pounds withdrawal.
no i don't mind saying it i i'm not gonna ask any more.
what?
well so that yo about adrian after a few weeks it's you know
remind me to wash in these cupboards before sunday.
yeah.
have you seen jan and joan dress up to their their victorian day jan came like a an upright stripped erm working, not working class a sort of governess right she had 
yeah.
frumpy shoes and a .
where'd she get the clothes from?
oh she borrowed it, and a bonnet and a white flowers an all and joan turned up like a a twenty five year old victorian fashion model you should have seen her!
black silk skirt maroon blouse her hair done up in a bun draped with gold jewellery oh talk about looking the part!
what's wrong with that?
and john hired this thing like a cape 
who's idea is it?
was it?
oh it's it's quite common, everybody does it if you have a vic if you study victorians anyone who a victorian and they all they did all done out, chairs er table space at the front, they did drill in the playground they played with tops and hoops in the playground, all the children the m parents hired costumes from fairy godmothers fairy godmother's done a roaring trade especially 
ah i should think fairy godmothers put the ideas into somebody's head, i would have thought.
that's not 
we might 
it's just a very good way of er teaching chi i mean children will i mean that's the kind of experience 
yeah.
you never forget, do you?
some of but you can't do it for something like a medieval's day or roman 
no.
day it'd be grim, but victorian 
victorian 
people have got a, yeah 
just close enough to sti still remember a lot of the cloths and stuff.
and they had to they had to sit in rows and they had to do as they were told and they weren't allowed 
ha!
to speak.
yes.
apparently some of the children got quite scared of jan cos jan played the part so well ah joan for life.
frightened the life out of them.
yeah.
ah back ah back ah back and bill .
so what did john look like perhaps like a little billy bunter didn't he?
ah no he looked very good he had a gown and a mortar board and cane and bow tie and pin striped socks, quite good, yep.
and they wore that all day all of them all day?
all day and then he got all to do at lunch time yeah they kept it up all the day, they had separate play time, they had had to eat their lunch in the class room all they were allowed was a piece of fruit, a bread and water and they all had to have, you know, they had a bread roll supplied by the school an a an apple i think and jan made them write out their names and some of them couldn't write their name!
boy called daniel couldn't write daniel cos all last year he'd been allowed to put danny an he'd forgotten how to write daniel!
search me!
how old's that child?
ten and john 
and he can't 
that's what's so dreadful, joe was language coordinator and they came from her!
can't write names.
and another boys name was thomas and he couldn't write that cos all last year he'd been tom an he'd forgotten how to write his surname they're not dim children both of them 
frightening isn't it?
family she says quite an eye opener an they had write lines if they did anything wrong one boy just i reckon she could carried him but
no.
you can't be three times where's tonight gone?
all this stuff in out here shall i?
you think you're exhausted after a days work imagine if you've been doing that all day long, shouting 
look!
and shrieking, no i mean that 
i shout and shriek all day long!
ooh i'll lose my voice up there today we've done some really good things though try and do see more my hall is very full if he bothered to come to school he'd have seen them!
still find those what's this that's broken from?
but mummy you could 
paul spikes.
excuse me!
you took them and i want the batteries for them.
some people go round 
you asked me for them.
in science books
excuse me !
what does it say?
fourteen and a half.
were they marked?
no look at this here.
don't like the smell of your narcissus.
well go and won't they.
don't like the smell.
somebody look!
can you see it?
let's go .
oh well neat!
you know i can't see from that distance i thought john had a snowman badge on today, when i got close it's an owl and it said i am the vet.
he enters into th the to the fray doesn't he with it er
no he's got a grey jumper with an owl beaky on it all over the front and a mortar board on the owl.
did they have to ask him to do that or did he just volunteer.
oh probably just did it do you know what terry's do you know what one of my children did today?do you know what did apart from the fact he spent all day crying then he had to do the corrections, i said go back and do your corrections, said right on your own i wrote something that went no homework done, so he wrote no homework done,no homework done, no homework done !
oh no! er!
i can just scream !
ah spent all day weeping today with one thing and another when he weeps 
why cos you keep telling him off?
he oh!
they'd write a poem for her about my greatest fear, i said i remember last year there was a boy called ali and he wrote a story about a poem about this bird and cos he was really scared of that and so i said i don't suppose any of you will write about being scared of me except perhaps adine!
eh.
all americans go eh nine o'clock tomorrow i'm going over to kate ten thirty that gives me a bit of lee-way i've got a at ten i thought it was ten thirty i ought to get some money out really you're not going into woking tomorrow morning are you doing your quiz?
do you want some help with it, not really.
well i was gonna paper out and start cutting out some faces i think cos i mean a i may just as well i mean i was quite happy to let paul help me out but then
he can't take part.
he can't enter the quiz then 
no you should do it 
but he shan't 
all yourself and then
i don't think i'm gonna do as much as i'm just gonna do
no cos you won't 
a big stream of pictures right
yeah.
and them i'm gonna think i'm gonna do the same south america
yeah.
but do south american you know get some big ones 
yes.
in that might be fun mighten't it?
yeah i can't do it with you.
and you could already write up in red pen you sort it out instead of arguing about trying to do it.
yeah you could u u or split up the to start.
some proverbs, i can't think can you complete these proverbs good book up there for that i don't know at all, there's something wrong ooh this looks really good got look at this book, all the streets it's got like the house of commons and the house of lords 
oh yeah!
take you brilliant book that 
alright.
i'm at school 
you can smell it in the book 
it's got all proverbs and what things mean.
what's all this then.
well they're proverbs aren't they.
all of them or
yeah.
single ones?
well all sorts, let sleeping dogs lie, the ones that underline them as i've underlined in biro.
where did you get that 
sort of big words for little words that's a big word, you have to think of an addition, i've had it in nineteen 
fifty eight it is or nineteen sixty three geographical facts
oh yeah.
peoples of other land, look all the people that come from 
mum, how do i get 
are you sure it's up-to-date though?
well you bu you'll know if it isn't.
dad?
sorry.
spell deceased.
deceased, d e c e a s e d.
look, masculine, feminine kevin masculine, feminine some of them are really hard zar, marino distinctive name given to some countries, look the dairy of northern europe, debonair cut your nails down!
urgh!
look famous famous founders, pioneers africa for east or west i think it'd be there today the muses do you know what that says?
yes.
any more famous faces oh you're gonna do up?
no i was wa er what what the other guys did he's gone through a whole load of newspapers cutting peoples faces out
yeah.
some a little quite obscure
yes.
and just stuck it in little boxes, like little boxes and 
yeah.
that put it underneath that's all i'm gonna do is, do i i'll measure the framework 
yeah.
and stick them on photographs an filling in a the names underneath.
of who you think it is.
yes.
seen them really.
ish so that it
score
the la funny enough they had gasgcoigne and the picture was so poor it looked people put things like oh you know er edna everage things like that and he ju , he looked like 
a woman and he the really 
you know you're of pictures now then.
yeah.
so you're gonna photocopy this or are you just doing one original one?
no i'm gonna photocopy it.
are they free?
yeah.
about going 
cos i've got tomorrow as well.
well you're at football tomorrow.
yeah not all day.
virtually watching boon i've got some a two paper i think.
ah don't look!
even if i looked i wouldn't know gotta be fairly small pictures haven't they?
how do you spell disappearance?
yeah aha go over there 
d i s a double p e a r a n c e 
cos you're far too near whe wha i'm what i'm doing.
and again.
d i s a double p e a r a n c e.
do you want a coffee ruthy?
yes please i'll have a maxwell house cappuccino.
have some women in it.
ooh it's a good one, there's some really obscure ones!
do some of the things you'd know!
just because you've got some imbeciles coming!
who are they?
well mainly the children .
dunno them.
your 
your cousins.
i'll do a full face on that one cos that's hard.
what is it?
knowing yvonne she'll hee hee!
actually it's surprising how many faces you can get just looking at cheap newspapers you see, incredible!
you think ooh that's well done quite easy.
oh did you do kettle's boiled kettle's boiled it's only three weeks since the last party this is all for jim's benefit isn't it .
i thought this has co ro come round quite soon.
well she goes june come on, could have had it next friday i think something must be happening next friday, she goes to australia on the seventh well maybe that is next friday oh no it's the isn't it?
so she can't come to the ?
cos the sixth is next friday no.
it's just as well cos she's bound to say something about my quiches!
ha ha ha!.
.
gosh how much have you got paul?
lots.
you do it all tonight?
no.
why?
erm i can't.
you can't do any tomorrow can't do any on sunday i suggest you do it all tonight.
can't.
you don't about this cappuccino is i don't understand is that here maxwell cappuccino is
you can't open the packet.
twice the volume 
yeah, but twice
that's right much more powder than you use 
we i know you can't open the packets, it's stupid!
honestly paul you won't have time to do it tomorrow and sunday well you can work 'till nine o'clock tonight.
how much, can i?
you can work 'till nine o'clock tonight.
these narcissi are really strong.
sorry?
cor they're really strong.
ooh yeah aren't they.
mm.
i don't they're going to grow that tall, somehow but gone up straight as a dye haven't they?
i can't put them down there to begin with, i think they all draw up 
hey 
than lower down.
my hic hyacinths have all come out except no, they've all come out, one goron l looks like it's gone and lot congealed little bad and another hyacinth has two have come up and other ones not come up at all.
you haven't had as many as usual have you?
well no not perhaps as many as last year.
i'm gonna have to go in this afternoon again .
what did i do with the scissors?
took them out to make the tea did you get any biscuits?
no except for some .
there's some kit-kats up there.
well you're not having any.
i wouldn't mind one.
no pauline 
just one.
would agree.
i'm nine two this morning on the scales, i'll have you know.
wanna a kit-kat pauly?
yes please how do you spell whereabouts?
w h e r e a b o u t s seems to be a lack of spelling at your, this place ah!
urgh!
put plenty of royalty in.
are you looking?
oh no, why should i!
trouble is paul 
i wouldn't cheat.
she's you pauly.
i won't cheat!
you'd love to though.
why?
i gave my top group your algebra homework today they said pau is this paul's homework, i said yes that's not fair i said why isn't it fair?
well it's too hard, i said how do you know it's too hard?
and they all did it apart from chris who said urgh she always works us too hard!
apart from christopher most of them managed it paul especially richard he's really clever i know who that is, lady di.
shut up ruthy!
is this one lady di?
is mum not entering it then?
yeah.
course i am.
then why are you looking?
i'm not looking paul don't tar everybody with the same brush.
what?
pardon, don't tar everybody with the same brush.
ooh pardon me!
what's that mean?
that means just cos you're likely to cheat don't assume that everyone else does.
then why did you say princess diana?
i know that's princess diana.
cos i see him cut it out.
so you were looking in the first place!
no you were looking at the mal vicinty 
vicinty 
spell vicinty 
i don't know, about it .
will i have to pull up any of those caps heads before your mum comes round?
no.
we were just hanging around talking today and the children done christmas card competition an wi some really and me and 
ah!
moira
!
and and joanne joe, say who could judge this, this is for our competition we'll say heidi coming, no, is anybody else in it, no er sarah'll come in cos she doesn't know, right?
so john came up and we said er we were wondering who could judge th christmas card competition and he was saying oh i don't know,and then th the p t a chairman came up erm we said oh perhaps you should judge the christmas card competition erm and she said well melissa is judging it and we said pardon!
then john,, said well didn't you ask her this morning then!
and joan says oh no i forgot!
well and even that didn't jog his memory, that he should have asked her to judge it!
what a dozy !
you know 
who's judging it then?
well mary going to judge it and, would he let her do it on her own, no he followed her round, making comments here, making comments there, trying to influence her fact is, this'll make you laugh, you know the wall displays you know th erm the books, where's wally where's wally you have this page, of really tiny little things and you have to find wally, who's a person, right?
yeah.
in minute detail, hidden on the page is something, you remember how simon had books like that
yeah.
in where's lisa, where's freddie, anyway it's where's wally, for that he said er i think i'll get a picture of somebody and er course he i said you gonna call it where's wally?
he said no i'm wanna call it where's the wally!
milly said cos we'd been talking about this all day and they, the children had been saying to john you gonna have a picture of yourself in where's the wally thing?
and erm milly said ha can't think of a more suitable candidate and swept off !
if you don't want the car i'll drive to school tomorrow.
what?
i said if you don't want the car i'll drive paul and myself to school tomorrow.
just thought mu mum's got this newspaper so she might,s know some of them photographs.
well then it's not fair, use a different newspaper.
well i haven't got them.
we got our local papers, aren't there any in there?
doesn't matter.
you get yes you do you get pictures of pop stars and that in the 
yeah?
mail.
right.
and you can have my magazines 
that's a hard one.
as well if you want the express and the mail have much the same pictures got a football magazine and a woman you can have a football, i can't u look
still get some wrong it don't matter anyway does it.
football will be there for children won't it?
yes that's what i mean, i noticed that the man who did it balanced it rather nicely, he had some actors some politicians, that everyone can contribute especially in a .
except for me if you think my general knowledge is abysmal!
abysmal!
erm after football's done, then it must be us.
.
will you tell paul he's gotta finish his homework tonight, if he can't do any tomorrow he can't do any on sunday not cutting off their hair?
yes.
let's see.
not allowed to look can i read that?
no.
please?
no.
why is it illiterate?
yeah.
hurry up with the scissors pauly.
why the rush?
got a pen?
cutting out like mad here.
have you got a pen?anything that writes paul?
no, anyway you didn't ask me!
i have.
then in there and get it!
how much did you pay for this pen in the market?
it's got a loose nib!
what?
this pen you bought in the market has got a loose nib.
how many you got?
oh, still waiting for the scissors.
oh paul!
what?
what is the matter?
daddy wants the scissors.
well i'm sorry!
not very.
ha.
don't throw scissors, ooh it's very dangerous.
paul!
well you shouldn't keep taking them!
tell you what you can have a pair for christmas instead of a computer.
oh yes please!
there's a pair there look paper's there.
you saw then you were looking !
i'm not .
you were !
see you can't be trusted.
ray wilkins is it ?
oh that is ridiculous!
sorry i just .
that's it!
see you can't be trusted, you're a you get quite upset when you get accused and pauly quite rightly accuses you.
i caught her looking paul.
she's always looking!
she'll always look up got a pritt stick?
yeah.
where is it.
usual place.
where's the usual place?
where's the usual place?
can't it isn't pardon?
where in there 
is it in there?
it is .
was she looking?
she was looking at what, ray wilkins.
well how do you know of ray wilkins?
well cos she called it out.
pay my attention to it, i look harder.
she.
stop making silly noises then!
she'll be ferrero roche.
i'm really not hey how about getting erm if i can get there early enough individual christmas cakes they were gonna sell them for
oh yeah.
two pounds each individual iced christmas cakes like this.
cheap.
yeah.
i want one of them might be nice for natty.
keep it in the box.
boing!
de er der der der der .
you're on still, look!
yes you're on, no you're off.
dad?
eh?
i today did you do one bulls eye no not cut up the thing and say which sport does this person belong to might get a picture of rob andrews see if they stick rugby or tennis on.
yes paul that'll be a bit unfair for the other twenty nine people around wouldn't it?
what other twenty nine people round?
ah!
then you'd know all the answers.
can't do one for everything!
i think you should have a music one.
one or two i i know now i'm writing them down and .
ha ha i'm in at tomorrow morning i'm hoping when i wake up i wanna nice and 
so what time do i need to wake up?
from the fair?
not very early, you can sleep in i've gotta go to waitrose to pick up the stuff.
sleep into when?
well ten o'clock.
ten o'clock!
oh hang on i'm leaving at ten cos i want to be there a little early and start them but i hope to get some perks.
nine okay?
wake up at nine?
yeah i'm going to waitrose at nine.
so which fair is this at school is it?
yeah, what do you think i'm talking about!
oh i don't know i heard it's a craft fair, that's all i heard.
all this time daddy thinks it's a like 
no i said it's a lovely craft fair.
it's called christmas fair but you and darren have got a stall so ah
why did you know what to do there then?
i already bought a children's thirty five pee each.
yeah.
zoe said are they for your little said which little fun are you talking about zoe?
said yes they're both for paul ha ha!
little look at those brilliant grafts mum double grafts they're called hobart and darwin.
why are they called double grafts?
they're not called double they've sort of got a about rainfall and temperature.
oh and they show two things so y you'll have to see if there's any correlation between the two is there any correlation between rainfall and temperature, and is there?
when rainfall goes up does temperature up and vice versa?
dunno just gotta describe them.
well that's what you have to say, is there any correlation between
what does correlation mean?
they all correlate.
yeah.
it's connection isn't it kev?
mm.
yeah and you've gotta see
that's level six, you should be doing that.
what's level six?
well correlation i've just done that with all my children, you should be level six, no good doing it, you should be it want you to do two pieces of work for monday and all the same level, so there's an extra two you've got to do.
and what homework do you, what do they get what homework do they get over christmas?
they get poem, my greatest fear and they get a project homework from lynn.
so how many homeworks do they get, two?
yeah how many have you got?
five.
rubbish!
clap trap!
that word would go down well.
you know that lady that did the thing so lary what did you w and you say the children w meant knew what it meant, what did they say it meant?
well sort of meant all knowing.
no lary means something like it's sort of like someone mm
ah you know that word as well.
yeah 
well how do you spell it?
l a r y.
l a r y?
yes it it's lary, it's sort of like someone insults you like they er you've only got four toes and so i'll say that's well lary!
and then y but i take that then 
what like an insult?
lary, yeah like hey you when and got too lary!
sounds like aunty sheila's mardy 
got it?
she says mardy don't she?
lary everyone's going oh that's lary but 
well i've never heard of it and they i said 
but and you called james a moron or something like that 
yeah but
he goes
moron
but he goes 
we know what moron means.
but he goes oh that's lary!
you shouldn't take that word, well 
what you unkind?
no
i do 
no lary.
rude?
yeah.
no i'm sure he didn't mean rude.
not unkind, it's like you shouldn't take that from him that's bad get him out ding da ding ding ding ding ding boo boo diddle erm, doo doo doo doo diddle erm dum dum dum diddle erm ding ding diddle er er diddle er yeah yeah doo diddle erm doo doo dee dee dee boom boom diddle erm boom .
hurry up!
i'm moving, i'm scrooving, i'm dooving this is hard, got to take all these notes and just put them into all sort of a summary.
spell summary.
s u m m a r y today is saturday.
is there any connection why have you coloured it in red biro!
and oh i don't really know.
that doesn't show anything!
yet the january, february, march the temperature is high which is temperature i can't tell by looking at that, which one's temperature and which one's rainfall.
that's temperature and that's rainfall.
yeah but which line refers to which, how can i tell?
you need to put the dotted line there and square there 
no you can look like that.
how?
rain, ten millimetres of rain equals one millimetre ten of rain equals one millimetre and this one one degrees celsius equals
well i'm sorry i don't think that is very clever for you!
there and 
one degrees, how can temperature
what?
one degree celsius equals one millimetre
yes.
so it's twenty five degrees celsius in january?
no.
well i thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to put some sort of clue on it.
we've got twelve people coming, right?
er yep what's that gotta do with anything?
well cos i'm gonna have pairs i think here 
and one you!
oh singles then?
it's more 
no 
fun in pairs isn't it cos the people can have the scraggle and talk to each other.
you'll have to have pairs and put one three.
chips.
well that's not fair then.
put michael with
oh yeah
if you put michael with two other people, it's completely fair.
but then your implying something aren't you.
why don't you say if you're a child you can go in a group of three, if your adults you'll have to be in a group of two, so the children can attach themselves to any group.
right.
right.
you've got eleven people you need four groups you don't have four groups it's not worth doing is it?
gotta share it all out perfect even why don't you say, stick it on the wall, give them each a piece of paper and they've gotta do it i've got an idea, you can compile a quiz
fine i'm 
and then you could have a treasure hunt for the children
you know
couldn't i.
most amusing 
are you gonna sort of read out the question and they each gonna scribble down their answer.
nope.
what you gonna do?
no, just leave 
have a chart.
your father!
what?
have a chart.
heart.
you'll let people overlook each other then sort of overlooking 
cheating you mean!
yes i mean that's the first thing you have to say, you have to think when you look at you keep, anybody who does the whispering 
is mum.
is giving their answers away in fact, what we did, the team of four, is they all had a little pad of paper, if you spotted something you knew, you went and you wrote it down because people we there.
you did it in silence.
yeah tried to do and they obviously can't.
why aren't you gonna for faces.
well this th this is the the faces and i thought i'd do the maps and the rest were questions i don't know whether y should do some questions.
well you'll have to think of some.
yeah i'll see how i go any 
you got the maps of south america?
yeah.
i've got one at work a blank, you should of asked me for it.
what all split up, yeah?
yeah.
oh.
i could get it tomorrow morning in my 
yeah could you?
blanked out without the er the countries names 
yes 
in it?
oh yeah.
i've got all the countries blanks might not oh i might not even have the countries on but if you had blanks you could put countries in, that'll be easier than 
no that'll be harder.
no what the boundaries?
yes because if you've got the scale you just drop, trace it all off where as you got the you've the you gotta sort out work out i th the scale of everything, haven't you?
no you just draw the lines.
yeah but how do you ge 
what scale?
how you going to know exactly where the boundaries go or i in between some land-lock countries that you got it in the right position 
how many land-lock countries are there in south america?
well enough anyway, i mean i thought you were giving me something easier to do not 
well i think why would you do it tonight if i didn't have it?
yes 
say i didn't have it tomorrow you'd 
well 
do it tonight?
probably ni or tomorrow i was gonna do that.
i seem to think you should take the easy bit, cos that's gonna be miles too hard!
no i like to balance it, i ju there's some balance there, there's some easy ones and some hard ones.
i'll tell you what's best for michael.
i don't feel that's very good because you're just gonna get children totally pull out of it unless they're 
no.
really really good.
children are allowed to go 
you find that if if if i in a team, if there's teams i you find that in a singles, but if there's a team e if everybody feels the everybody feels they can contribute something to it when you've got 
you can have those 
allowed to be the idea of that, you don't wanna make it 
yeah i know 
too easy 
no there are no husbands allowed to be with any wife and children can attach themselves to which group they want.
so work out the groups, you work out the groups.
well there's going to be apart from your father there's going to be seven adults.
listen, a man with a woman but not wi not by marriage cos say like andy with nanna 
well i could go with two children, i expect.
well write down the names let's have a go at, let's work out, let's work out the teams 
cos i'm the cleverest person, i can go with two teenies!
lo , write down the names.
modest!
no and i could be the only adult with two children cos i'm so clever.
write down the names and th work out some balanced teams then for me please.
ah, give me a pen!
i'll write it out with her.
can i, thank you.
then people don't argue then 
do they, if they say look that's the team then th people are h happy.
there's nanna and margarite, if i find him another 
yes, they don't know cos they're both daily mail readers and i'm cutting the majority of these out.
and and maybe an adult 
don't put 
no four groups, is all you'll get out of twelve people.
don't put michelle and andy together.
i'm not?
don't put 
papa a nanna and
er adrian
and kevin with andrew yeah no not kev and andrew because
erm mooty 
yeah.
mooty and michelle 
hang on i 
what other adult is there?
there's only me 
is karen quite good?
one, two
yes karen is 
three, four 
will be as sharp as iron 
can i be with papa then?
it'll have to be me with papa.
okay .
that's the eight adults.
who're you putting karen with?
be careful cos karen is the 
andy.
andy.
no that's far tha well 
think again isn't that 
nanna and 
michelle and mooty, why you think that's too clever?
andy an andy and karen will streak through.
what better than michelle and mooty?
i bet you.
she generations though.
i bet i'll give you a bet karen will win it.
what about papa?
who you gonna put karen 
because 
with?
she thinks , she reads papers.
well i put karen with papa and me with andy then.
it's just her her what?
put me with andy then, and karen with papa.
no that'll be too easy cos you and andy'll streak through that.
mm.
it should be 
no it'll have to be karen and andy cos 
mooty and andy!
yeah?
cos the others are different generations, they're at a disadvantage cos they're the same generation andy 
yeah.
and karen.
yeah so 
karen doesn't read the mail and nor does andrew.
you'd be surprised, karen's well read, newspaper wise she's not 
oh of course 
or something.
right you got that'll do, i think unless your father wants to 
no.
now three of those groups can have a child 
should be with nanna and adrian.
no.
why not?
you mean you with nanna and adrian yeah i think you should 
okay.
be with them put michael with andrew and karen tha 
which one are you gonna have?
who can have lisa, me and papa or michael an mi michelle and mooty?
see i'm in so me th th they'll all be able to contribute.
michelle and mooty.
that's right 
cross michael out then?
where's does lisa go?
cross michael out.
why?
just cross him out.
why?
you've gotta think of the generations they would be more likely to lead a pop star or sort of person that would know all those those sort of things, put michael with michelle and mooty and lisa with papa and mum 
be careful who you put mooty with cos mooty 
i've put her with michelle!
oh that's alright, that's fine, yes.
and lisa with papa and you.
so that left andrew and karen on their own?
yes that's fair 
do you think that's fair?
sorry?
andrew and karen, you think 
yeah.
they're so clever that they're 
yeah.
going to beat anybody else?
they will win.
yeah, so listen to this nanna, adrian and me 
go to dad.
okay i'll read it out, nanna, adrian and me, dad?
make up on.
okay?
sorry?
nanna, adrian and me papa, mum and lisa andrew and karen 
he's not listening he's not listening 
i am yes 
michelle , mooty and michael.
that's alright.
is it after lunch, i presume?
yes.
i knew michelle and mooty would need somebody else cos you know michelle mooty would have a .
paul you gonna throw me another pencil i seem to have lost
paul don't belittle the 
lost one.
older generation.
no but s 
throw me a pencil please?
i'm just saying would she know about michael jackson and all that sort of stuff.
is daddy putting michael jackson in?
i don't know, he's bound to put in, i hope.
i'm not giving any clues away i'm balancing as best i can.
what do you want?
pencil, i know you couldn't concentrate on three things!
comet have you used the match box?
yes that brown crayon you've got in your hand'll do.
why, why will it do?
well you seem a bit desperate.
what you gonna do with it?
right so you're going to go work 
well 
after i've gone to have you?
yeah.
you can go to work when the tape stops well he's not going to watch you sticking all those on at work what's he gonna be doing.
he's doing his homework.
i can draw some sides just like i can put i could make a just draw neatly in the teams bi on a big piece of paper that'll make it look really good,.
and when were you going to do the map of you can't do that map tomorrow can you?
yeah.
well when will you do that at work then?
before or after football?
i'll slot it in sometime tomorrow.
right, fine wish you could slot into washing up mood.
ooh there's a hard one.
there.
ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh that'll sort out the i'd like someone to say, i'd like to have one or two that nobody gets.
is there a prize?
what do you mean?
sorry?
is there a prize?
i suppose there should be.
suppose there should be yeah.
what an overall prize or individual prizes?
er
little individuals is it?
well they'll have to be equal prizes wouldn't they?
i've got it!
whichever team wins th the cha children can give out the christmas presents.
what christmas presents?
those presents up there.
big deal!
can't fool you.
well i've never prize 
it's only it's only fun, i mean what are you gonna give them?
the team that wins gets their presents.
he said i used to laugh at my dad when he used to do these quizzes but when
that's why you'll start getting more and more like your dad.
yep.
wouldn't argue with that one iota.
what does iota mean?
scrap.
one what?
scrap.
scrap?
scer er ap .
why?
one little bit, i wouldn't argue with her.
you could do a treasure hunt, dad dad
mm?
you could do a treasure hunt.
no it's too hard.
it's not.
no this is do this is just a gentle little thing it'll just get people laughing and things cos
you've gotta sort out how you got organised ?
who?
?
no he no go upstairs th in pairs if they wanna do it, quietly.
upstairs and find .
getting silly!
you should have answers up there and each person has their gro group reading one in the breakfast room
but we got go grammatical each person has to speak.
why don't they go out well i can have somewhere else but they can all have their quiet place to talk.
is it tonight casualty on?
eh?
fridays?
done today's paper?
don't know.
can i have it then.
then cut it up, i don't know you cannot loo go through you cannot go through those!
i only want the television page 
i don't care 
for friday kevin 
no don't mum 
sorry.
oh for goodness sake how can i possibly see anything aye aye!
why don't you look 
find it over there what about over look!
look i've found it.
oh give it !
i thought you wanted a pop star?
will you do any mathematical sums?
no
mum can do them.
i might win.
mum can do mathematical sums.
i've got a lovely mental test for the children it's a bit hard.
is it?
better than 
two one one i am so tired, i've got to get up early tomorrow , right i want that recorded twenty one thirty, shall i her out?
yes you better had 
as well.
oh where are your keys?
paul can you turn this thing to nought.
yes.
or on this one or you have to have the other one?
the other one should be a button i've pressed the button just lift this up button she set, there you go.
thank you so if i press play and record now twenty one thirty, twenty two thirty it's half past ten thirty five to half past ten that's alright so if i press play and record now it should come on at wha one and a half and ten one forty so it should come on when it says one forty.
shoe shoes shoe 
i took them upstairs.
where are you going?
to see mrs .
i didn't want that lady thinking you were untidy.
that what lady?
when are we leaving?
dad?
mm?
when we leaving?
in a minute oh this is it oh no they're not re releasing in that cor look at this he's not doing the one, he's doing all his christmas ones together .
who?
cliff that's why they did it, cos they put them all together.
mm?
clever i think.
right i got my key then.
alright, i think i got enough here.
alright?
right, yeah.
well will you be very late?
no.
see you then.
hello my name's geoffrey chaucer and i'm going now, bye.
are paul are erm manchester united playing in their blue strip today, will they do you think?
yeah.
that's their unlucky strip.
let's hope 
it's a disgusting strip.
that awful white and blue 
yeah.
strip.
red as well.
yeah i suppose they can't have red can they?
not with a red 
no.
so, we're so much like red aren't we?
red and blue.
team's us they can't have red or blue either .
what did they have, what colour did they have before the blue?
oh it was blue last year wasn't it?
it was a bluey weirdy one before 
oh yeah.
last year.
yeah.
before that they have white don't they?
all white.
oh yeah.
they played the cup final in white didn't they?
yeah.
right.
i looked up the teletext and it said full squad for manchester united.
even paul parker's fit.
so they've got the full 
not the palace full squad?
man united?
no man united, yes.
so they can't have any, if we beat them they can't have any excuses.
yeah.
have they got lee sharp?
well i don't know.
i don't think 
don't think that's, that means that i don't think.
i hope not.
that's all we need.
i've got to try and make sure the petrol lasts till the texaco garage 
when's that?
where is the texaco garage?
that one by carshalton ponds i don't think there's any one nearer is there?
no.
oh yeah that one.
we don't usually go to that one do we?
been to it before but not for a long time .
is this the a three or the m twenty five?
a three.
lovely new road.
be kind of funny to see the mascots going on knowing what they've done .
oh yeah.
except they'll have had a four course meal to eat.
will they?
well maybe.
does that mean they would have if they have it at the ?
on saturday well i mean it's the option to have it saturday.
i don't know, at at that price i don't know.
i don't think very many do.
really don't.
fast.
did you see that erm did you hear that in the zenith data
yes.
er game?
when the q p r man interviewed the ref.
the the sky television man interviewed the ,
oh yeah.
he said what's the coin?
and he says nineteen sixty two when i started reffing and he said the oth they're not i'm not giving them this one but these two are for the other mascot scene.
you lost out there didn't you really ?
they were badges.
they gave themselves badges .
oh badges.
oh.
what did you ref say?
no chance sorry you can't have it?
dunno.
geoff thomas sent for 
he asked on your behalf didn't he?
yeah.
well you can't ask any more of geoff thomas than that i suppose.
i wonder why that little bit was in the paper about geoff thomas being absolutely priceless?
was it cos someone's 
what bit?
someone's after him again?
what bit?
there was a little article in the sun i told you about.
alan smith saying geoff thomas is absolutely priceless.
er all he's got to do is score more goals.
that's what i couldn't understand.
what a nerve!
.i think he meant for england.
all he had to do to seal his england career was pop in a two, a few goals like he does at palace
yeah.
and er could be on the way to a regular spot.
he is in a regular spot at the moment.
well i don't know.
hope, hope that's true.
yeah but well you look that that jaguar four litres!
. four litre car!
yeah but what are you gonna do with four litres?
i dunno.
well quite.
it does about eighteen miles to the gallon.
how many miles do we do to the gallon?
i hope we do something like thirty six.
thirty six!
don't think it's much more than that.
how can his, well if ours is one point six there's three times
no it doesn't work that way.
it doesn't work like that?
no.
so what how long will it take him to get eighty miles filling up every ?
well i mean do they have huge tanks?
i mean they take if you, if you filled up you could put i think it's about twenty six gallons in that car.
and how many can we put in?
nine?
eleven?
cor.
eleven.
it was eight, nine.
i think this might take eleven.
so how much do they spend if they filled it ?
don't forget if you've got all that weight, you've got that you're gonna lose even more petrol.
so if you filled that up, how much would that cost them?
well, twenty six i think it's something like isn't it something like two pounds a gallon now?
you don't, they do it all by litres now so it's really hard 
about fifty p?
about fifty, fifty pounds?
fifty pounds to fill up!
yeah.
oh yeah fifty, sixty pounds.
and how long would it last them?
about the same time as us?
yeah.
i suppose you have to be able to afford all that if you can afford the car in the first place.
right.
yeah if you have to moan about that you shouldn't be driving it in the first place.
motto, what?
motto of the story is er er don't, don't buy expensive cars if you're gonna want to run the thing though.
you've spent all your money on this car.
all of a sudden you realize 
well like that new advert for the rover he says don't, i keep thinking my back my back tailgate's flapping or i keep hearing, you keep hearing creaking don't you?
a creak here and you think what's that, what's this, what's that?
so that new rover has been built so everything fits perfectly, right?
so nothing rattles.
what do you mean nothing?
no toleran er the tolerance is you know minimal.
whereas the tolerance here'd be i dunno eighth of an inch here eighth of an inch there he says the advert says as soon as you have tolerances like that then thing work loose and start rattling and creaking and
e e.
you can hear it go e e er e.
yeah.
you imagine cruising in a car, lovely car like that and it makes no noise.
just cruising away and it just like glides, and you glide you know like, like papa's citroen type that kind of suspension.
yeah.
is this a new rover?
crikey what was that?
a rover.
was it that rover?
yeah.
was this a new, is this a new rover ?
carving everybody up.
yes.
that was er that, yeah well it's not out yet is it?
looks like a looks like the front of a b m w to me.
i think that's what they're trying to emulate.
oh that one.
how much is it?
supposed to be.
don't know how much it costs.
should think it starts at about sixteen, seventeen thousand .
yeah .
a three's heavy isn't it?
look.
yeah.
so you got any ideas what you're gonna get, what you should get mum for ?
er.
we could just fall back on a bit of sweets and chocolate or something in the end but i'd like to get some
what what sort of thing are you gonna get her?
there's some funny little weird shops down thornton heath aren't there?
what sort of thing are we talking about?
well i dunno.
something i'm not i've no idea until i see it.
well something like soap or what?
could get her some, some toiletries or something.
i dunno.
i was hoping for something even more er
a moss chemist might be able to get her some bromley don't they?
there is a moss chemist on the way.
oh yes she did tell me that she'd like some of that.
yes there is one isn't there?
by shops.
right we, we'll we'll treat that as a fail safe then.
if we can't see anything more unusual suppose we could always fall back on the bubble baths or the anyway i think that's a bit more than but there you go.
they're off to football aren't they?
look at that!
i've never seen a metro so full.
how many people are there in it?
five.
five full adults.
look really down on his haunches.
oh yeah!
low!
it's really low innit?
mm.
see that's the b m w i think the rover's gonna look like.
that one, that's what they're copying.
yeah.
it's really like it.
it's only the front though.
oh i wanted to let him go.
what?
oh look!
someone's been right through that wall there, look.
cor.
ooh!
you wanted to let who go?
i wanted to let that car go, i was
why?
well i like to be polite.
i don't like the people like this who who straddle across you and just stop you.
mm.
specially when they're indians.
come on, let him go for goodness sake.
what's that plonker holding that sony thing for!
yeah i i held up a traffic jam of about sixty cars doing that .
there's .
still there.
do you judy then?
somebody call judy.
judy, yeah .
yes it's judy.
ah!
what did the say up there?
i don't know.
wah.
i think we're gonna have to invite erm adrian again.
one of these football evening matches we could couldn't we?
yeah.
i'm gonna see how many people i can let go across here, between here and palace.
right four 
do you wanna count?
oh no i did four at that one and i just did one there.
that's five all together now.
five.
five five times i was polite.
no but they, they just ran out in front of you, those other four.
no, well no i let them go though.
well the third one did.
so we're counting from five?
five yeah.
only ones i don't like are the ones in like oh that doesn't matter cos he's allowed to do that cos it's a keep clear zone there.
i wonder if they're going to our match here, do you think?
they look like a football crowd don't they?
not really.
do they?
well i dunno 
it's a woman a woman driving it.
is it?
yes.
oh well.
perhaps not then.
four men 
so if we get there early enough do you feel like a wimpy?
a wimpy?
sony, sony sony sony me sony 
i don't know what that's a tiny little shop for a sony isn't it?
yeah.
oh it's not a sony shop though look.
it's audio sony advert.
oh.
i bet they've got one of these tape recorders in it though.
mm.
sony me sony sony me sony .
a wimpy?
cheapskates.
they don't put the lights on in this christmas thing till it's slightly dusk.
i know.
well we can't hardly see them now.
well you well you would be able to though wouldn't you?
would you?
you wouldn't want to put them on, they're not so spectacular are they?
cuts cuts down on the electricity bill.
plus two sports.
it's funny, every time we've sat at our seats that bloke has come to ask the chap next to me
yeah.
what he thinks of the match hasn't he?
. there hasn't been one game we've been there that he hasn't or both of them haven't .
suppose they're both season ticket holders.
james was well gutted on friday .
james right like mr right he didn't know right and we have this sort of erm water fountain and he was running towards it and he, and he filled up his mouth with it and he was spitting it everywhere and we were all sort of getting out the way and mr told him if you don't want to drink it then leave it alone and he sort of turned and walked away.
mr who's quite strict isn't he?
yeah.
he looks
he badminton.
james 
oh does he?
james was really unlucky.
he sort of just come, just go up there 
james is always into trouble isn't he?
yeah.
that's rather disgusting though
i know.
putting water in and spitting it out.
he should have remembered because always walks down there on fridays to do his badminton class.
did he give him a de de detention or not?
no, he told him to get away.
yeah well always mucks around on fridays don't they?
sort of like ah no more school for about two days.
more relaxed mood.
james is very excitable 
yeah.
now when i, when we went to that open day that mr is very stern isn't he?
mm yeah.
didn't think it helped he'd, just before we got there his biro had exploded in his pocket .
all the ink was all over his shirt, it was coming out all over the place.
i don't think he was in the best of moods when he, we got to him.
but he seemed very very stern.
he doesn't smile very much.
no.
terse.
we have his wife er mrs for english.
and you say they're nothing to do with mark
no.
?
it's unbelievable isn't it?
isn't it yeah.
unless it's smith in cypriot or something .
don't know.
don't think she's cypriot.
none of them sound cypriot but
so what's his wife teach then?
english.
we have him for history and her for english.
and her for english?
yo!
yeah.
mm.
she's the one we did our geoffrey chaucer project, project with.
i always feel guilty passing mike's house.
we really should sort of take him to football, don't you?
but
they are.
i don't think he's i don't think he's interested as you is he really?
no, nowhere near.
but he's probably not there.
he's probably at a party or something like that, or
yeah.
i don't think he's got any lack of things to do, has he?
really?
no.
he never seems to have any homework to do though.
all those christmas trees in that lorry, look.
oh yeah.
where are they going to?
i don't know, they're loa , looks like they're loading them in, they're putting them in the gar the school.
has that school closed now?
i think perhaps it has.
i went there for a week.
yeah, i think it's closed.
didn't i?
i was in the fourth year, the top year .
were they nice to you there, the teachers?
i mean there weren't very many teachers anyway were there?
how many were there?
dunno.
three or four.
four?
three or four?
don't know.
can't remember.
on the computer most of the time.
and i took part in some of their tests.
i got better results than some of the actual fifteen year olds.
that'll be quite good about your maths test won't it?
cos you'll be, you're doing it again with, like that aren't you?
your maths 
you're taking class nine
yeah.
you could get better than them.
yeah.
virtually every year the eighth, eighth year always does get better than the ninth year.
look that house is really old.
look it's got the plaque on it.
what's a plaque mean?
is that a fire station thing?
well yeah it's yeah.
no no it's not but it's, it's saying how old those houses are.
all, all these
yeah?
are really old.
they look quite new.
yeah.
well no they're kept to look like new really old.
were th , were those white boards always there?
it's got a surrey surrey badge on it look.
building of historical interest.
what's so historic about that?
don't know well it's probably near erm three or four hundred years or something.
yeah.
everything's old around here isn't it?
apart from it's sort of like everything's old that side
yeah.
everything's new the other side.
more modern, yeah.
talk about that being out of place.
look at that.
what?
well
what budgens?
that bloke looks like your derek doesn't he?
the old sunday school teacher.
what in the car?
chap here, yeah.
does he?
bet derek wishes he'd have a car like that.
nice.
he's only got a beat up old metro.
yeah.
spent four hundred pounds on it.
they, they had a documentary on metros apparently and the me they said that metros of a certain period for about, i think from his period sort of a registration, b registration, y registration they're absolute rubbish apparently.
yeah.
you know, all the rusting and everything, they've improved now.
the me if he had a metro now he'd, you'd get a better deal but they said that
they're cheap though aren't they?
well yes but not cheap if you have to keep replacing them and
think he'll probably buy a new car probably.
photographic photo service.
how do you spell sergeant?
i've always wondered that.
is that how you act is that sergeant?
erm yes.
it's not s a r?
er i think the american version is and i think that's the english version and that's right.
so his name is actually somebody sergeant?
yeah.
ooh i wouldn't mind buying that, look.
for sale, doesn't say a price though, but look, doesn't half look new doesn't it?
where?
complete new opel body i reckon he's got there.
t registration but opel manta.
nice.
genesis.
who's that?
oh that's phil collins isn't it.
this corner here gets worse and worse, traffic lights and yet the traffic 
yeah.
gets further and further back.
and yet two or three years ago it used to stop up there.
now you stop further, now you're almost stopping on the lights.
the lights are getting clogged up .
yeah.
you know those sporty rollers?
they don't have all that pine in them.
don't they?
that wood.
no.
no.
suppose it's not very zoopy sport does it, like ?
no, it's not conducive as a sporty image the walnut facia.
facia.
don't think.
how do they make that building curved?
architecture.
they're quite nice actually aren't they?
they, they're a bit run down.
they could have a bit more money spent on them.
had a new roof i note but
yeah.
they're always for sale.
there's always a for sale sign out outside one of those or one of those.
i reckon it's one of those flats, you can always get a flat there.
are they flats?
so many that, er yeah, so many of them that soon as one's sold somebody else sells another one.
yeah.
well how many are there?
seventeen to twenty
oh 
twenty one to twenty six.
it's a lot isn't it?
yeah.
specially both sides.
yellow flag coming out of his aerial.
oh where would you prefer your ae aerial?
would you like it there up there or at the back?
up there's alright.
i like it the way the ones that you can close each time, now i'm sure my aerial will last longer.
cos you can 
what do you mean close.
well it compacts.
oh yeah.
the ones that stick out all the time, they i suppose that is good.
if you have one that doesn't compact, you you're best to have one in the middle cos it's less likely to get pranged there isn't it?
yeah.
here like walkers by can bend it and oh look.
here's my next one.
six.
i've let six go now.
you must have let someone go before now.
i didn't, no i haven't.
no.
haven't had the opportunity to.
what is this lady dressed up like?
what has she got on ?
what has she got on her hair?
weird.
bunch of wool .
she'll be thinking where's that wool?
oh it's on my head.
look at those tiny rugby posts.
yeah, i don't know why they do that, i was gonna ask that, why they chop those off, look like they've been vandalized don't they?
yeah.
it's only for junior rugby though.
they haven't replaced that garage have they?
it's volvo's in there.
they've got no-one, no-one's 
yeah.
put a new garage in there already.
there's loads of new garages going in all over the place.
volvo 
could have let that one go but i was too late.
yeah.
volvo seem to be moving out all over the place.
i think they're trying to set up er nought, their own things rather than just joining petrol stations.
where's the secombe centre 
back there.
have you been to that place, holiday inn?
headphones on the wall again.
oops a daisy.
is that the b & q down there
yeah.
or the texas?
b and q.
martial arts.
so so far i've let six people go.
that's not bad.
six!
it is bad.
you let five go in a second.
well i could you could let this one go but i think he's gonna come out isn't he?
i don't know what to do.
here you are, no, i'll let him go, oh two i let go!
that's eight.
oh brilliant.
yes!
eight!
wow.
eight people.
wowsers eight people.
she's gonna sit there all day she's that far back .
funny.
think it's obviously to do with trusting your car's power.
it's also being alert to watch.
i mean some people just don't expect you to let them out so they're dreaming mostly .
yeah.
times you flash people er?
and you have to flash flash flash flash flash before you know oh, oh, ooh!
let her out.
you know, they're just, they're just waiting you know, sort of others are like on the ball almost too much.
they whip across you before you've even thought about it.
isn't texaco around there somewhere?
texaco?
er no that's b p.
texaco is round the corner.
don't forgot to switch that off when we go in the garage.
yeah.
oh look.
number nine.
yes!
number 10?
no i can't cos they're, they won't let her, let them go.
get stuck there.
i, i'll ask about that.
yeah?
yeah.
no i know about it.
you have to send off.
do you?
yeah.
but have you got a form or something to get at the garage?
er you can ask then.
it's those ones where you just flick it around.
what were they called?
what were they called?
er
i, i know arm bands but was it, is there a name for it?
protective arm bands?
flick them.
er
flick arm bands?
flick on bands, yeah
flick on bands?
flick on bands .
you want me to go in a garage and ask for, have you got a flick on band!
you flick off!
you're the one that wants them.
squire car company.
why have they got all
fancy having a car called eggs.
e e g s, dad.
oh that's the way you spell eggs.
it's not!
how far have we got through this tape?
flick it off now.
the garage is here.
yeah.
sort of past half way.
can't believe these are only forty five minutes.
cos we've been talking at least there.
mm.
this is a tricky one to get in to isn't it?
this is the one, you know i went wrong in the b p?
this is the one i always think i was thinking about.
yeah?
and when i went wrong the other time.
what, what other time?
you know, went to the esso and i went all wrong and i couldn't le , i went down a no en 
oh yeah.
woman said no way .
no way chummy.
oh there you are children should be application forms here.
yeah it's going round.
why must you check, every time?
cos i think sometimes it doesn't .
you just sit there thinking you're taping and you're not.
oh.
er how did she get it on there?
pooh.
mummy's gonna say that's very strong, paul.
in fact put it at the back somewhere i think pong.
no.
why should we have it in the back?
that's it.
really strong innit?
can you put that in the in the glovebox then please.
do you wanna bit of this?
no thank you bounty what's the egbert fund?
i'm supporting the egbert fund.
do you know it?
looks like er the spastic one.
oh.
no we've picked the wrong one there.
i don't think we'll pick spice again, do you?
no.
ooh!
smells like somebody's lavatory .
looks like you'll have to sort of like put it up for a day and then take it down for a week and put it back in again.
it's too much for one day .
you shou , perhaps you should have kept the bag on it.
you know it's too strong to .
you take the bag off, off it after a month or something.
even your bounty must taste a bit poorly.
yeah?
yeah.
bet the bloke listening to this can hear it smell it.
i know.
put it in there.
.
open the glovebox when we get 
yeah.
er hang on though, perhaps that's not so good.
i, it might make the sweets taint.
mm.
i reckon we'll when, when we get out we'll put it in the boot and it'll filter through through on its own .
ooh dear!
how about just keeping it in the bag?
it's overcoming me.
yeah.
open your window, quick.
oh look.
panic.
not everybody's window, paul .
ah!
strewth pauly.
disgusting.
i'll just keep it down there.
in the bag.
oh it's disgusting smell.
and why did you hit this car?
well you see 
my son took his magic pongo tree out
and i was overcome, thus hitting the car in front.
i see mr .
do you expect us to believe that do you?
yeah .
yes.
he is an idiot.
can you leave that alone!
i leant on it.
lean out a bit cos i'm shutting the windows again.
no i want it.
i 
i hope this traffic jam's not all the way to croydon.
i do so hope.
oh can you imagine what that purley way's gonna be like?
forget the s , egg and chips pauly.
forget mummy's present.
oh what are they having here now?
the christmas fair.
at the moment i'm just trying to forget that awful spice stuff.
innit?
yeah i think you did wrong.
you should, you shouldn't have er yeah.
you shouldn't have er opened the packet.
it's funny that shop didn't smell of it did it?
so i mean the seal must keep it all in until you open it up.
ugh ugh.
open it ugh .
no it's quite a nice smell if it's like taken out now.
we'll put it in the boot or it'll just be sickening on the way home.
yeah.
person listening to this tape will probably go ah .
i can smell it when i'm listening to it!
there's our little football group.
look, it's getting bigger and bigger.
what little football group?
there!
yeah.
got a lady teaching, got a team to go there.
do you remember that lady that ran the team at er st john's?
yeah.
quite keen.
oh yeah, her.
how her little team got on.
whether it folded or not.
probably did.
i think a lot of them do.
yeah.
you imagine what purley way's gonna be like ton , today.
christmas shopping .
awful 
oh we're taking forget two o'clock.
i said two o'clock we'd be parking.
stopped for petrol i suppose.
yeah but dad, not for that long.
so when will we park now?
set an estimate 
well look there's an estimation look they're parking, they're queuing on this brow of the hill instead of the other one.
everybody's got christmas fairs on haven't they?
look, balloons.
this is the day.
yeah.
no, fifteenth is the day.
or sixth 
are we going to ?
yeah.
it's the toy service tomorrow isn't it?
is it?
yeah.
that really is a strong 
no it could, you could overcome, i wonder if there's a warning on the packet.
do not open this and drive at the same time.
really heady.
on an empty stomach it's made me feel quite queasy.
oh look he's done, someone's done that to his, look, look.
smashed his wing mirror, look jam a glass in it, er sock in it to stop the glass falling out .
oh it's not too bad.
yes paul.
well really you should have read shouldn't you?
dad!
you told me to take it all the way out.
should have got that blue one.
i knew that was your fault.
stinks!
yes but you opened it all.
actually i don't even want it anywhere near me.
ah.
it's gone all my nose funny now.
nose i've got my asthma.
asthma.
asthma.
by the way, if you can hear a word i say you're better than i am.
oh get this out.
phew.
i'll have to lob that 
that car's got smile just to annoy everybody .
what?
smile, just to annoy everybody that blue datsun says on 
what does that, what does that mean?
ooh, yeah be pleasant and ooh.
there you are, look, look 
you can read that ah.
i thought you meant that what about the one in front of it then?
baby on board.
i can't stand those ones.
can you see?
well i can see 
i can see the baby.
well a baby is on board.
give them their due.
oh, oh it's made all my throat go all funny.
pay someone to take it away.
very long lasting.
yes, very long lasting.
hang on, i'm just opening the window again.
recording commences at three past two.
with .
got a palace picture on.
man united!
oh.
don't let them out.
they can stay there.
we hate united.
hello again.
hello, hello, hello.
who is that munching cashews on the tape .
here we go, you go right close, go ah!
you wicked trickster you.
would you like a cashew nut?
you can't have a cashew nut.
oh come on.
i like the big ones.
you would.
that's me!
mm
tasted nicer ones.
can't afford to eat them like that!
mm can.
mm.
lovely.
should eat them about a quarter at a time.
why are the dearest things the nicest?
don't eat them like that!
mm.
i can't, look at you eating them like that.
one at a time.
oh look pauly hot rod.
hot rod!
woo woo, nice.
mm.
no!
that means give me the packet.
hurry up, come on.
what?
quick.
give me the packet please, they're mine.
what me?
what.
oh that's where you should go for your computer, look.
p c world.
yeah.
this bit's not so bad.
once you get through that traffic light back there
yeah.
it's alright.
mm.
soon as these lights go we should get here, through here quite quickly.
mm.
long lights.
i command thee to become orange.
orange.
well it's so long for the .
they make them longer during the evenings and saturday.
orange!
and this lot have got to go first haven't they?
mm.
yeah .
quite ridiculous.
far too long.
far too long, yeah.
how do people know it's gonna change?
they just sort of start their engines still red.
changes.
regulars down here i should imagine.
where?
regulars probably who come down here and know 
regulars .
they can count.
yeah.
no they can probably see down the end and they 
well these lights used to be quite easy, didn't mind being stopped by them.
now you're petrified of being stopped by any of them cos you know it's
yeah.
really long wait.
when are they gonna bring those towers down?
don't know.
which way would they tumble them?
i don't think they're in any rush to develop now, are they cos this housing business is so poor.
whoever's got the land has decided 
are they boarded off.
you can't go up there any more?
no.
that is so naff isn't it?
putting your scarf across the car like that.
i know.
what's it say.
crystal palace.
least it says crystal palace.
right.
who shall we, who shall we get
what?
as a replacement for somebody.
who is there?
who would you like?
if we had all the money.
buy ian wright back i suppose.
no.
i'd sell bright.
no i wouldn't sell bright.
i'd buy someone first.
make sure someone was interested in .
i'd buy deane and swap bright in exchange for deane.
no matter how bad he doesn't like it he's well and truly gutted.
er so him for deane and 
yeah but deane won't be available till the end of the season.
there's no way sheffield united 
er i dunno.
just stoking the price up i think.
cos it's not old bassett now, this is what it's all about.
to get the odd draw you need the odd goal and er it's not gonna come from any other people than er
oh yeah, deane.
deane.
but deane didn't score today.
it was beazley apparently.
beazley.
beazley.
er i might see if i could pick up that sheffield united guy jamie hoyland.
he's quite good.
as you say the main problem is, as you say is are you going to change your whole team, game 
yeah.
i don't know.
i think they'll do it slowly but not this slowly.
i mean i th i think we should have bought someone along with er gabbiadini to play with him.
could just bring him and expect stuff.
mm could you get 
i think he's gonna have to raid the bottom divisions again, you know.
what sort of bottom divisions?
he's probably got his eye on .
i mean that coleman was a very good buy wasn't he?
yeah?
yeah.
how much did he cost?
three hundred and fifty.
three hundred and fifty.
no it wasn't, it was three hundred.
it was two 
yes it was.
three hundred and fifty.
oh anyway, it was still pretty good wasn't it?
wasn't cheap, i mean
no, but i mean you could see play really well .
i mean southgate's all the more pleasing when you think he's somebody that's worked his way up, right?
yeah.
that's really nice to see.
and he played really well.
southgate is a harder person to mark isn't he?
yeah.
i think i'd drop mortimer oh look, palace.
red car it's like ours isn't it?
yeah.
i'd drop, i'd drop paul mortimer
yeah.
and have collymore in right?
and encourage that's the trouble, you drop mortimer you drop somebody who can er flip the ball in but i think you definitely want to take the heat off wright.
now if if all collymore does is distract but mortimer was not playing enough of the game.
we can't afford people like mortimer to, i mean he scored a goal but i mean
yeah.
eddie i think is worth sheer sort of opening teams up.
well he does open, there's no not many players can play a team better like than opening up 
so what'd you do, say you had back next week so our next game against birmingham.
what would you do then?
well i mean they've got, they've got, he's gotta do something because you're gonna lose that birmingham game.
can see that coming now.
but birmingham must have won today cos they had equal top must have won i would have thought.
that's good.
chelsea won one nil.
how do you know?
you'd have thought forest would have beaten chelsea wouldn't you?really annoyed after being 
yeah.
i suppose so.
what are you gonna buy mum?
he's gone the whole hog that guy hanging down to his
oh.
so what are you gonna buy her?
newbury fruits?
or something like that, er
they did very well with those little tulip hand out things didn't they?
there's a lot of people who er don't, who would not have gone to the bother of going into the shop and buying a one pound or two pound or four pound 
but why did they do well out of them if they were free?
well yeah they're free but they've got their advert on it haven't they?
tulip 
tulip tulip, i mean you're like a roving little advert aren't you?
i mean it, it draws your eye those little pictures doesn't it?
you 
oh he's got, he's got the hanging one at the front hasn't he?
and he's got a badge on the right hand side as well.
yeah.
so he really is 
you see that guy next to us?
he's got a palace earring hasn't he?on one of his ears.
oh my goodness.
on his left ear.
he's nice though isn't he, wasn't he, he did say something
yeah.
i didn't have to say anything.
i said to him i don't know, he said did you enjoy yourself tuesday?
oh i said, did you see us?
oh yeah we saw you.
and his dad's nice.
yeah.
but that other bloke was there but he wasn't in his normal place.
yes 
why wasn't he in his normal place?
palace played really well.
the first twenty five minutes, when you think we were one nil up right i thought gosh if we could get that second goal it would have made all the difference and united would have been really would have been in trouble.
was a good game though.
oh i enjoyed it, yeah.
just don't enjoy palace losing, but sheer football and it just shows you that ironically the two games can match each other and there were chances for palace to wrap that game up.
but er when they do play that ball to ball business erm 
yeah.
we look like we've got huge spaces in our in our midfield.
i mean that's what teams are doing now, they're realizing that's where all our weakness is in midfield so don't take a er a hefty boot and try and er er people like thorn and i mean thorn and young were impeccably they played beautifully today.
you cannot ask thorn and young, i've never seen two players play they do, they did th , they do the simple thing but they do it consistently well.
over and over again, maybe a hundred, hundred and fifty times in one match and they'll make one mistake and usually like coleman was there to c , i think coleman backed up well and gareth backed up well once or twice.
but defence wise superb.
absolutely su , there was a lapse with that guy, don't know who was to blame about that third goal but i mean
it was young.
er young let it plop over 
oh, didn't see who it was.
it was like, it was like a, like they were waiting for an offside or some there were just couldn't believe, it was 
but it was the same when palace scored and exactly the same thing happened didn't it?
why do they lapse?
it's weird.
yeah, it's well they do say both sides that it's the most dangerous time straight after a goal.
i mean often, times you see teams equalize immediately.
you know it's like, you sometimes you can go a whole game like seventy minutes of a game and no-one's had a goal scoring chance
yeah.
and then someone scores and the guy goes in straight calmly and scores straight away.
you know it's people aren't
yeah.
i don't know, it's psychologically sort of still got their mind on going through what's er
on what happened.
yeah.
it's like at school when they're thinking oh no, no and they've scored again.
it's like you've scored, you're so elated and you 
fact you you often sort of watch videos of managers.
managers are often shrieking you know about what's happening next rather than you know, all their players are jumping with joy all over each other and you think and they're saying get in your positions.
do your stuff.
don't let it slip straight away, i mean that was annoying thing is that we didn't deserve to lose three one really, i mean
sneak that that box of sweets in then for mum .
i bet she knows you've done that for her.
eh?
i bet she knows you've bought that for her.
well she knows that we're giving her something, yes.
i mean we could have been worse, could have forgotten completely.
i mean it's easy, cos when mum gets all those things for everybody else, clearly she doesn't get something for herself.
don't know why not.
what did you get her last year?
it was the same thing wasn't it?
no i didn't get, we didn't do this did we, last year?
yes we did.
we always have the tree presents.
do we?
our sunroof's pretty isn't it?
you what?
our sunroof's pretty isn't it?
very stylish.
what's the time?
this very busy road, isn't it?
i suppose so.
busier.
seems to be very busy 
so does the other way.
yeah.
because of mum.
where the heck are we.
hundred percent better 
yeah you were well fluky then, getting the 
how come that shop had them and the other one didn't?
you wouldn't believe it would you?
no.
nice big posh shop like and it's got cheap
yes.
and nasty in it.
yes.
hope you're enjoying it.
follow you up 
it would be real boring just listening to a load of rubbish wouldn't it?
i mean making up conversations all over the place.
suddenly it clears this bit.
what you're memory?
no this road.
oh, this road.
why?
dunno some go off that way 
i mean, let, some people go up go off where?
where is it leading to?
don't know.
i don't really know.
what's all this, why does meltis always have that stand of eighty, eighty years?
well it's how long they've been going, i suppose.
surely they've been for the last four years and they must or do they just keep it at eighty one then they go to ninety?
i don't know.
i've never noticed that badge before.
hallo how many miles have we done?
sixteen thousand one hundred and sixty.
how many did we have when we bought it?
how long ago
fourteen thousand 
how long ago was it that we bought it?
september.
september?
ages ago.
yeah.
twelve thousand miles 
twelve thousand?
no way, not at eight.
what if we lose at birmingham paul.
will you wanna go to the chelsea match?
what chelsea match?
well the chelsea match is the following tuesday.
is that yes.
yeah.
yeah.
and what saturd , what's the match on saturday before squeezed in between that?
what?
i don't really know.
er erm is there a game on saturday?
i think there might be.
oh i've got it, i've got it.
it's come to me.
it's come to me.
it's come to me.
oh not a big team is it, again?
tottenham.
oh no!
oh no it's not tottenham.
no, you know when we played our birmingham replay?
yeah.
that night we were gonna play tottenham.
were we?
mark told me that.
it was on his picture list.
really?
that night we were gonna play tottenham
oh well.
in the league.
oh sorry.
perhaps we can play tottenham when they haven't got er gary lineker in their games any more.
yeah.
you start hitting periods like this and you think oh no.
you think every team you start worrying about almost every side don't you?
yeah.
oh we always worry about every side cos crystal palace always hate the bad sides.
cos usually we do well against the man united and as soon as we start losing against them we start getting worried.
they outplayed us last season at fairground didn't they?
liverpool 
what do you mean at liverpool?
what did liverpool do to them then?
well we lost no we beat them two one 
yeah.
i remember that.
most surprising result of that season.
not really.
was it?
it is when you see us struggling against birmingham.
what do you think the score's gonna be against birmingham?
three one to palace.
three one to palace?
be great if that is.
we will score first.
they will equalize and we'll score two more.
we have got to get another goalgetter.
i mean old erm does his bit crossing and splitting defences and getting goals but not scoring them.
what do you mean, getting goals and then not 
now, well now it's just now we've got nobody who, who score actually really scores goals except thomas i would say at the moment.
we really do need somebody who regularly pops them in.
what about gabbiadini?
what about gabiadini?
well he's coming along.
i don't see him 
i think he he had a really good first half i think it like, i think that to be fair, apart from coleman an southgate everybody faded in the second half didn't they?
yo.
yo 
yeah.
what's that, man united fans?
wallington.
where's wallington?
oh that's boring.
why are we going this way then?
are, are manchester united not the most cockiest fans going aren't they?
they really are cocky .
yeah.
leeds, i like man united, i don't, i don't hate them or anything i just, they get a bit i dunno.
mind you not that they've had an awful lot of success recently but they are, really are a cocky lot.
leeds are aggressive so you're always quite glad that you've beaten them but .
specially with palace i think they seem to think but they really .
should have finished them off in that first 
yeah can i just flick the light on for a second?
thank you.
yes, see who i mean i can't think of anybody who's in the reserves who could do any better than the lot that are in, in at the moment.
can you?
other than perhaps give colleymore a full blooded game, right?
doesn't he get a full blooded game at the moment?
i think perhaps it's, it's worth it now.
the season, i mean we're not gonna come top of the league are we?
right?
we've gotta make sure we stay in the first division but 
i think we can afford to blood colimore as a good one now.
he could have this whole of this season to get used to playing, right?
yeah.
and then who knows what fireworks could happen the season after.
i mean he's never gonna be a when he's obviously another bright.
who wants another bright?
we're supposed to to the better style of play.
no, i don't know.
well why did we buy gabiadini?
why?
what would be the point of buying gabiadini?
no, well i, i mean you saw the point really.
i mean to pick i mean who, who who could replace ?
he's, i, he, the way he plays is virtually unique, isn't he?
so i mean you're not gonna say well let's go and get another ian wright off the peg so fair enough.
but er in the kind of situation where ian wright was very very good was in tight situations.
differently through se sheer speed and but er i can see gabiadini i mean ian wright never flicks like some of the flicks that he does.
i mean some of the flicks are fantastic.
but erm there is a nice side to his game but god he doesn't half fade.
can you afford somebody that fades like that, i don't know it's
the whole team fades at the moment.
i, i, that's what i would do.
i'd drop mortimer now and er keep, i wouldn't, i'd keep mcgoldrick up don't have him as a sweeper.
i mean if you're gonna have mcgoldrick as a sweeper then you'd have to bring mortimer back but
why not 
i noticed it was quite odd that he didn't use mcgoldrick as a sweeper did he?
i mean we, we went out to win that game didn't we, again?
well, don't you think?
yeah.
we didn't play a and yet the defence played well enough.
so i think drop mortimer and bring colimore in for a full ninety minutes and then and and again and again and again.
get sort of like half a dozen games.
i think drop bright colimore.
well.
i mean bright, i mean
well yes, you could say, yes
you've got, you've got an excuse to drop bright.
bright's tired.
you could say bright is absolutely tired.
he looks tired at the moment.
just drop bright .
there's no need to drop mortimer.
not when he's playing well.
mm yes.
well he, he didn't play well in the second half though did he?
i don't think.
he sort of 
give me a player that did, outside
yes, well, yes.
coleman and southgate.
well it it was one of the, i mean when you saw
oh look, that's where fergie made those funny faces.
oh and you didn't see that did you?in the paper .
look croydon caterham valley.
eyes.
christmas presents.
er one thing, what's the name of this record you want?
enya.
it's in the, it's in i think it's number nine in the hit parade 
what's it called?
what's enya's record called now paul?
eh?
enya's record?
shepherd's .
it's number nine wasn't it?
what?
nine, wasn't it?
number nine.
i don't remember
what's the cover look like?
it was number three when i 
it's silvery.
greyish.
it's not silvery it's blue.
is it?
it was green last time you i asked you.
enya anyway.
are you celebrating your birthday tomorrow?
well paul was asking this, when well i'll have some presents.
whoever comes, brings me in we'll open those.
do you want yours opened ?
i'll open one in the morning i think.
up to you, what do you think?
i don't mind .
so you'll take paul to church in the morning will you?
alright.
well you can drop him off and pick him up.
i could do, yeah.
now you've found my keys for my i really need to get those 
what's that he's got?
what's that?
my .
you bought it?
yeah.
more money than sense.
wonder what he looks like now?
how old was he there?
nineteen sixty eight, so that's twenty three years ago.
he was only twenty three then i should think.
let us have a bit of the paper.
listen to this.
absent minded spinsters beryl and doris lost their car in a repair shop .
yeah i know!
i read that.
the sisters are eighty and eighty one reported the mini stolen
and bought another one.
got the er three months later they received thirteen hundred pound pay off from insurance commercial union and promptly bought a replacement car.
but when they booked their new car into tristar motors for its first service, they found their old model waiting for them .
that is dreadful garage that didn't phone to find out why they hadn't picked it up though, isn't it?
i'd have thought
unless they lost their address.
hee hee hee hee.
i mean the fact that this come out is that the 
that was in the mail that was in the mail.
yeah but the fact it's come out is that they've been honest.
isn't it?
right?
yes.
you could have kept that quiet, anyway.
oh i should think the garage publicized it.
i remember this one.
who's that?
kinks isn't it?
ray davies?
yes.
tears of a clown.
no it isn't.
no i know but he, that's what he's famous for isn't it?
tears of a clown.
i bet someone's vid , i bet alan's videoing all these.
put them all together.
look at the sets in in sixty eight .
you could, as the camera goes by you can see where all the sellotape and the gum's stuck to boxes.
i mean look at those boxes.
just just scrappy old blue looks like something the art college has knocked up.
who is that?
moody blues isn't it?
is it?
ha ha you used to look like that.
they all look like allied carpet salesmen now don't they ?
i mean they looked old then don't they?
i mean you didn't have sixteen, seventeen year olds in those days coming through did you?
they were sort of like
mm.
i mean look at those boxes.
you can see all the sellotape and the bubbles and
where?
oh you've got poor eyesight then.
we need a new aerial.
where's the other bit of paper?
which other bit of paper?
croydon advertiser?
yeah, well which bit have you got there?
there you are.
has it got the adverts in it?
jaws is on telly paul.
er?
jaws is on tonight?
jaws is on.
included the who, the small faces, the move, the kinks, the moody blues and jimi hendrix.
absolute rubbish on television.
that's what merle said.
now house of elliott's finished she's got nothing to watch.
i bet she's watching bugsy malone.
did you hear that, winston churchill's doing bugsy malone?
oh.
and catherine's in it and that er i said ooh haven't you seen it merle, she said no.
i said ooh i've got the video.
she said well what's it like.
i said ooh you'll either find it really funny or you wouldn't find it funny at all but erm
how could you not find it funny?
catherine well i can see that
oh!
i can imagine that tom would find it funny.
i said it's a very good film.
anyway catherine's got a very small part in it.
she's a german reporter or something.
which i couldn't even remember a german reporter .
a german?
i said what do you work for fat sam?
i don't think she knows it very well.
she said she's seen the film but none of the other family have seen it.
you know.
where they, they're having a fight and they've got all the different people in the news like chinese people go and there's fights and then they get, there's custard pies thrown at them.
oh yeah.
and germany going boom boom boom boom 
that's just gonna make an awful mess on stage isn't it if they ?
is that all she's got to do?
yeah.
she said it's a very small part.
they go pow they've got french people being fired at 
i wonder if they'll have the er custard pie part in it?
oh yeah?
splurge guns.
splurge guns 
?
yeah.
splurge guns.
oh look.
pete townshend.
the who.
i met liz in er woking paul.
i met liz in woking.
stall made over seventy pounds.
and jo won a major raffle prize.
liz said isn't it typical.
she won a huge box of groceries.
liz said i won a raffle prize.
i said oh what did you win?
she said well it was down to the last two she said, i had a choice between a red and green cushion or a fitness test.
ah!
so she said i took the fitness test.
i said you don't need a fitness test liz .
she was waiting for her husband.
her husband's much older than her.
her husband 
well she 
could be her father.
oh no.
well he's he's fifty five.
he is fifty five.
that's why she's talking about him retiring isn't it?
yeah but i mean she looks about fifty five to me .
liz!
she's younger than you isn't she mum?
actu no she probably is forty five but she only looks 
she's not younger than us.
about forty.
the way she carries herself makes her look 
i i thi feel i look i i feel thirty so i mean i always think 
and liz makes herself look 
i thought that was very interesting that
she's so fit though.
oh look it's all when the who used to smash their rec , all their, i mean that used to be disgusting.
what are they doing?
they used to break up all their things on stage.
dreadful isn't it?
why?
well that's what pop groups used to do.
they went to total excess and then they had to come back the other way.
well look at them now.
well one died.
the guy, the drummer just drove his car into the swimming pool didn't he and drowned.
what the one that drums there.
yes paul.
not the one holding his guitar.
what's he trying to smash it all up for!
well that's what they did!
they were only old instruments.
they didn't smash up anything valuable.
why did he drive his car into the swimming pool?
well that was the point.
i think they did.
oh.
why don't you ever pick up the freebie papers?
they've got the property in, i'm always interested in those.
is he still alive, pete townshend?
yes.
cor look!
christmas shopping in croydon tuesdays and thursdays.
and the week before christmas monday tuesday thursday friday.
he's dead though jimmy hendrix isn't he?
yes.
he's dead.
look here paulie, you come and have a look at this.
this is crystal palace going up in f flames.
november the thirtieth nineteen thirty six.
look, there's the shape of crystal palace.
gutted in one night.
were you alive then dad?
no i was not.
you said you could see it.
you lying hound.
no that was the that was the furniture repository.
no you said
yeah that was the furniture repository nothing about the crystal palace .
no
thank you ma.
i'd nearly forgotten that.
i thought how on earth did i get myself 
you plonker .
stuck in that one.
no ages ago you said you saw it.
we've been to the site haven't we?
eh?
site.
the site is where the zoo is.
oh i'm taking the phone up to phone my sister.
i'll stop the tape and
clock, with the children.
we were christmas shopping can you imagine 
six hours!
awful.
so i said what have you got it all then?she's bought your present but she can't post it.
she said it's heavy 
what is it?
so you might be getting something else.
it's quite a nice book.
so i 
so she's gonna buy simon either chocolates dairy miniatures
yeah.
or a supply of chocolate miniatures.
or a supply of caps for his gun.
can you pull the curtain please paul.
what a big supply?
do you reckon that's quite a good idea?
yeah.
a supply of caps for his gun.
twelve 
yeah i told her twelve .
or roll cap.
make sure it's oh yeah.
it's two new guns.
one takes roll cap and one takes 
well we've got plenty of roll cap haven't we?
we've got a wadge of roll cap.
that's 
yeah but, the rate he
you know 
goes through it.
she might as well buy a year's supply.
she doesn't know what to buy, she might as well buy something useful mightn't she?
yes it's true.
there's no point in wasting six or seven pounds.
no.
as far as i can understand anyway.
i said or a teddy that does something.
so she's bought me this book?
she had already bought it before she phoned dad this morning, so
but she's not gonna buy, give me the book though?
she says it's too heavy to post.
so she's not gonna give me the book?
well she might, but you might have to wait till after christmas for it.
but she's gonna send something else?
i'm not sure.
no you might be old enough to be considered you can wait till after christmas for your present.
paul i'd like you to do a job.
i've done a job.
i've been round to merle's.
no.
i'd like you to do a proper job.
i'd like you to take a sponge and i'd like you to clean the paintwork on the stairs.
please.
what about touching up?
i'll touch up.
i've done the touching up.
so why does it need ?
you won't help will you.
i don't feel that it's worth doing.
trophy holders palace are now just three steps away from another trip to wembley.
oh that's good isn't it?
three steps 
you're not going this time.
we are.
yes we are.
i don't think we'll get there actually.
chelsea kicked us out last time.
chelsea won today.
yeah i know.
against the team we lost five one to last week.
oh you can imagine what it's gonna be like tonight.
what i was glad of, we didn't play poorly.
i didn't think we played poorly.
no you didn't.
you played manchester united.
ha ha ha ha 
report on the telly?
yeah they showed you that, yeah.
have you heard it?
no, we'll have a look at it, i think paulie missed it.
kanchelskis scored that third goal.
it was a really funny goal wasn't it?
i know.
i didn't see that.
i didn't see who scored.
scored the second?
hughes i think.
what's on ?
you'll have to listen to it then.
oh 
oh hang on you didn't see no goals you didn't see?
no.
oh.
oh i s , it was on telly?
rewind a bit then.
right.
i do rewind it.
reading teletext 
oh you were right, mcclair paulie.
kanchelski
kanchelskis
sorry?
kannchelsk ?
sshh.
did they tell you how he was?
did they tell you how he was?
no.
can we have a look at the, we'll have a look at the results cos i didn't see er no no not that lot.
turn all of it off.
thank you for that bit.
i thought you meant teletext.
no i thought she caught the film.
actually there was a little bit, they showed you the four goals on the television so they might show it on the nine o'clock
where did they, what, when did they show you on the telly?
n news.
no!
do you know what he was doing in the car?
with the speaker?
i th he thought i didn't, couldn't see.
he was going ooh ooh ooh.
that poor person 
what do you want?
on the end of that tape.
what do you want ?
i want er
he hasn't got a clue what he wants.
eh?
.
what do you want?
let's have one results weekend league programme.
let's have a look at 
one five one 
got the gates on there, look.
twenty nine thousand.
is that a lot?
well apparently it's gone up.
it says in this paper that last they could only 
they could only hold twenty seven.
but now apparently there's a, this with this seating or something there's now can hold thirty one.
and it wasn't completely full was it?
paulie?
no.
so it could just, probably just squeeze th 
so liverpool's got the biggest capacity has it?
they could just get thirty thousand in there.
i think thirty one's a bit 
so liverpool's got the biggest capacity has it?
oh manchester united would no manchester united have er oh at home yeah.
liverpool can hold about forty two 
manchester city twenty two 
that's pretty low 
nearly all those were with home fans weren't they?
what?
well manchester city versus wimbledon.
nearly all those will be home fans.
wouldn't they?
yes.
twenty two and a half thousand!
ooh.
and manchester city are doing well don't forget.
i knew, good old wimbledon.
that's how they stay up.
that's how wimbledon stay up.
they go up to those games 
nil nil.
and they make it nil nil they've drawn wi , now with manchester city and liverpool in two successive weeks, nil nil.
you cannot break them down.
that's why we stay quite near the top.
wasn't it?
oh!
well villa went above us.
or villa are above us.
we're sixth.
yeah i know.
no they can go above us.
they always was above us.
but they're above us on cos our goal average must look absolutely diabolical now.
the goal average must 
paul.
watch my lips.
it was wednesday that went ahead of us.
go and turn the television off in the kitchen please.
gosh oldham, good old oldham.
did us a favour there then didn't they?
now!
west ham did us no favours.
one two ah ee oh ee ah .
can i have one five two 
what do you go like this.
press the red button.
cor!
barnsley beat newcastle three nil paul.
what's so weird about that?
well poor old newcastle.
what?
brighton beat plymouth.
four nil was the biggest score.
yeah.
who won four nil?
well tranmere lost four nil at ipswich.
oh that was 
southend won again.
they've gone up 
i mean who would have thought that tranmere would have lost four nil?
who would have thought that when you drew southend in a cup, you think oh great we'll thrash them.
they'll be could be a first division team next season.
how come?
southend?
they're about fourth or fifth.
sowfend.
they won again!
oh swindon slipped again.
they should have won that, against grimsby.
that is so unlucky, ian.
will they be home by now?
eight o'clock, they're hoping to get home.
er yeah i bet
four nil .
still.
poor kids.
oh i feel sorry for them.
yeah.
you get used to it if you support palace but
shut it!
i was just gonna say, what games have we lost?
we are getting used to it, i mean there was a coup , a sea , last season we had
five one you lost not long ago!
yeah but i mean last season we hardly, paulie and i hardly ever used to come home having lost.
now we're starting to get used to it.
now you lot.
what have we lost at home, paulie, this season?
come on.
a lot.
arsenal.
yes.
man united.
is that all?
oh and you lost 
no hang on.
that's the two we've seen.
have we lost any others?
oh well we can't complain then, only two.
are you sure?
q p r we were preciously close.
birmingham we were preciously close.
here you are, programme here.
they hit the crossbar as well.
oh yeah we lost against west ham as well.
yes.
i thought we did.
i was sure, i thou 
west ham?
i know.
that was that was annoying.
we should not have wo , lost that.
you'll soon be losing against birmingham.
birmingham.
well they there's another stupid mistake here!
birmingham city l c three r.
they've got us down that we won!
one nil.
yeah their stat statisticians are going mad.
yeah.
statisticians.
would you like page now?
yeah, page three.
there were lots of draws.
thirteen draws.
oh look.
birmingham won two nil.
oh oh.
look at the gate they get.
ooh.
i don't really know.
bury one thousand eight hundred and eighty six people!
dreadful isn't it?
who's that with seventeen thousand?
wow west brom.
see west brom, really a first division team.
they shouldn't be in the third division.
the figures is irrelevant isn't it?
yeah.
the figures are irrelevant.
tradition that is, west brom.
just tradition.
they're getting bigger 
even if they went out the league they'd get that number.
yeah.
yeah.
i've been a west brom supporter 
they wouldn't be able to afford to keep the ground on would they?
all my life.
what?
they wouldn't be able to afford to keep the ground on if they went out 
well i mean it shows you what marvellous west brom were.
when west brom got lost four nil to woking wasn't it paulie?
the next round they had west brom supporters supporting, came down from 
yeah.
birmingham to support woking in the next round.
yeah.
it's pretty good isn't it?
but that's all much of a muchness isn't it?
nothing over four.
no.
was right.
we er we would have played tottenham on the night of the q p r game.
oh.
i got mixed up with .
he said q p r .
did woking play?
wasn't.
we only played them away.
yes.
what woking did play?
yes well paulie said they did.
they played
what did they do?
what did they do?
oh i've got to see what they did.
got to see what they did.
two hundred and seventy five people watching .
oh i thought woking were 
at gateshead.
i am so desperate to see what they did.
well that's it.
there aren't any more results.
hearts won again.
what about one five seven?
there aren't any more results!
they don't have they don't have amateur do they?
yes they do.
try can you try number one please.
there's one off for fog.
fog?
oh yeah there it is.
berwick east ham.
can you go to number one one five eight.
one five seven.
what would you like dear?
i would like b b c one please.
this is her.
there's 
but the linekers had better go home.
they can't stay and look at the, that child all the time can they?
i mean it's gonna be weeks isn't it?
they've arrested it now haven't they?
there's noth there's nothing on number one about it at all.
oh.
sport football 
saturday review.
league table.
non leagues 
ipswich 
three eight.
jemson saves the .
now we should have picked him up.
why didn't we pick him up?
he just floated over sheffield wednesday, honestly.
that's .
are you sure woking ?
should be the next page
yeah.
the premiere.
this is so i tell you what i'm gonna run out of here and go boogey boogey 
oh if they've won they've done it.
five nil!
oh it just 
five nil.
oh yes !
they're just walking away with that division.
it's a waste of time.
the whole 
do you know what said to me?
he said 
are they top of that division?
yeah.
that enfield, he was going, he said that enfield would beat them five nil.
that was his words.
enfield are the second team.
and they've won five nil.
they're about, that that makes them nineteen points in the lead.
ludicrous!
so what happens?
they go into the vauxhall league next year?
yeah, they'll be definitely in the .
that's in their division five couple of seasons la we could be fourth division team.
couple of seasons!
if crystal palace don't succeed you could be playing woking.
shut it.
love it.
that means if they, they'll go up this season 
shall we pack up supporting palace and go to woking paulie?
yes.
i'd pay for that.
i'll pay for 
very funny.
a woking season ticket free, for nothing.
i i've done a tu turncoat once already so it's easier for me .
there's nothing on lineker there at all.
yet other times 
i think we should go and watch woking more often.
what?
you mean like every other week?
yeah, when we're not watching
yeah 
no i think i think we should take go to some more woking evening games dad.
oh do you?
yes!
i mean we've never been to it.
have you ever watched woking play?
no.
i want to.
lineker.
the condition of the baby son of england's football is poorly but stable.
that was yesterday's.
ah oh that's exactly what the other one said.
poorly but stable.
that was on six o'clock this morning that was on.
two people died 
oh .
can i just watch this please?
ugh it's jaws.
it's gross.
guys getting eaten.
it or something?
no.
you don't need to hear the music.
ugh that's horrible.
this is a horrible film jaws.
look it's got somebody's body in its
it's only a plasticine model.
gross!
but i i would just like to see how awful the graphic 
he's died.
his mate's died look.
i think he's dead.
ooh!
gone under.
took him under.
oh no!
can i see?
i i don't mind watching it without the noise.
gosh quick.
they're leaking.
please mum.
oh 
that's in the studio.
it's all in the studio isn't it?
oh no it's not.
i mean the the plasticine sharks are stupid.
oh the story of this particular one is that it er er they tried to make out that the erm that the the the the shark has actually got something against the human beings on this boat and it keeps chasing them.
here it comes again.
there's in a studio, that bit.
look out here it comes.
look it's gonna knock her right off.
he spots it.
ugh.
ugh.
going through all the previous ones.
these plasticine models are so awful .
yeah they look gross now don't they?
oh they are quite lifelike.
oh god it's broken.
oh you can see it's a model can't you?
ugh it's swallowed it.
my stones didn't come out very shiny.
i like these bits where there's a shot which goes down .
so can i start wearing my dressing gown before christmas then?
no.
it's got to be wrapped up.
so has your, you can't have your song book either till after christmas.
oh, i don't mind that.
ugh the towel's dirty.
ruthus we're taping .
we're not gonna know the person who's going to listen.
geoffrey chaucer's here again.
speaking into microphone 
he keeps going geoffrey chaucer's here .
but we saw the best bit paulie.
the last five minutes .
have you turned it off?
no, it was the last you know the dramatic end that everybody who's been waiting for watching that film from seven o'clock till 
that off?
er?
you haven't turned that off?
no.
oh.
it records everything ruthie.
why is this dirty again?
all of 
yeah mum has got a towel dirty.
i'm fed up with you.
i keep putting it in there, clean one.
but the towel's for wiping your hands on.
don't blame me!
it's not my fault.
i'm just geoffrey chaucer.
the famous poet canterbury tales.
where art thou jonathon.
where art thou jonathon .
do you want to do any jobs.
i've got to finish my quiz off.
must do that map.
disgusting, jaws the movie.
too gory for geoffrey chaucer even.
paul i think you should go to bed now.
yeah.
no way dudes.
busy day tomorrow, yes?
no way dudes.
you've got to be joking.
we'll wait till the end of the tape and then you can go.
you have gotta be joking man.
boogey boogey.
zachramondo dudes .
i think paulie's invalidating most sides by total and utter gibberish.
well isn't that what they want to know?
eh?
what the mental cases in woking 
totally illiterate.
mumalissimo
i used some big words on the way down.
we're italian now.
mumalissimo where are you bonjourdino.
oh paul don't be silly!
go to bed if you're going to be silly.
go and learn your words for tomorrow.
bought one of those stinky old er pine tree things and paulie ripped the whole wrapper off it
oh!
spice.
yeah, i'll come out in a minute.
you sure?
mhm.
i like anne robinson on this programme.
i think she's better than jimmy young.
really?
mm.
i can't stand jimmy young.
anybody's got to be better than jimmy young.
ah.
he ain't a bad fellow.
i don't know what to do about these then love.
about what?
these things.
oh right.
i don't know.
i'm very sad.
i've decimated the the arrangement.
have you?
absolutely.
ha ha ha.
look.
over half of it.
there's only two in this one.
they had flower keeping stuff, you know the stuff you get in the packet?
mm.
and they had half an aspirin, pinch of sugar.
lost one.
oh no sugar in these ones.
that's alright.
yeah you usually put sugar in those.
there.
oh very sweet.
no it's .
i haven't put any sugar in.
poor little herbie he 
in yours.
he did look, he did look so sore.
ah!
poor
but what mrs had done, she'd restructured his insides.
what?
she'd had to use, muscle tissue had wasted away where it had been stretched by the double hernia
yeah.
and she also had to remove part of his bowel.
mm.
just clip it up wherever she could.
fantastic surgery she's done.
really?
she said if you're worried about him at all he mustn't strain.
mm.
he mustn't strain himself at all.
she said 
mm.
poor little scrap.
and he was trying to get round to his rear end to lick.
mm.
and of course where .
but she's done a fantastic job.
mm.
hello!
but i said to well you know dave and i will be in the rest of today if you do get worried.
yeah.
check up is booked monday at three o'clock .
oh.
and i said well if you want to take him earlier.
but i have planned to shopping 
mm.
well we were there for ten you see.
we had to wait and wait and wait.
hello.
hello.
all showered and managed to dry your own feet?
that's something.
yeah i've i've got .
i i i lift my legs up to my head.
yes.
wish i could do that!
he's practising for the 
poor little herbie he'd erm, he'd got a double
hernia.
hernia.
mm.
they've taken away all the gubbins this is mrs who looked after debbie's cats.
do you remember?
taken away the grobbins?
grobbins?
.
i don't know what i don't know what it is.
not even, not even i 
not grobbins no.
they've castrated him at the same time 
oh.
otherwise they couldn't get at things properly.
he's better off without them anyway.
he's not a stud dog is he?
but he looked so little.
looked so raw round his rear end.
but she, she's restructured his insides.
the muscle had wasted with the pressure of the double hernia.
the muscle had sort of disintegrated almost.
she's had to use what muscle she can to restructure his bowel.
she's a marvellous surgeon.
it's of money isn't it?
well the bill's nearly three hundred pound.
oh oh!
jesus!
now that wouldn't be feasible in your case because .
so what we'd have to do is trade him in 
ooh ah.
it's better my back.
it's in my lower back.
i think it's where it's been, been higher up i think it's more 
being what?
well i've been holding it to save it.
yes.
that's why you should have aspirin to relax it.
cos it helps it mend.
ooh.
i feel as if i want to it hurts and i feel as if i want to move it.
yes.
he's told me be very bloody careful cos it can go out just like that.
but he did tell you to move?
oh yes but very very gently.
he said tell it you're going to move.
don't do anything sudden.
tell it you're gonna move.
i like the way he puts it.
so the wrestling's out tonight is it?
oh 
ooh ooh
have to get with the rock.
alright rock?
ooh rocket ooh.
ooh ooh
isn't it lovely?
ah!
ooh rocket ooh
do you like having your tummy scratched?
ooh rocket ooh
yeah we got there for ten o'clock and we had to wait till they'd finished all the out-patients before they'd let the in-patients.
in mrs 's surgery.
there were two doggies in their pens still sparkers you know where they've had things
what'd do they do?
do they keep the doggie under sedation whilst he's healing up?
how long has he been there?
oh yes.
no, no herbie's not under sedation.
how long was he in there?
just over a night.
operation.
oh he's had all that done?
yeah.
did the operation 
how does he feel in himself?
well he was he heard audrey's voice in the waiting room 
pretty bloody awful .
and he was whining .
she said it's alright herbie i'm here and he for a minute.
and i said he's gonna do damage if he's trying to get up at the door
yeah.
the way a little dachsie would you see?
yeah.
so we talked to him but erm we didn't actually see mrs until about a quarter to eleven.
and she said you know, on no account must he strain.
obviously he's got dissolving stitches in.
on his insides.
and she said there was so little muscle left.
it had been so stretched and strained by .
but she had to do the best she could .
peter will .
and of course audrey's not too quick on her feet you see since she broke her hip.
so i was trying to help audrey and that and help herbie.
so herbie didn't try and jump in the car before i could lift him and trying to get audrey in with her stiff leg.
and then get the rug across her .
she didn't turn a hair when she said two hundred and ninety three pounds.
i suppose it's like anything.
you get an estimate for it.
well it's cheaper than i suppose.
parts and labour .
parts and labour.
eh?
does it come with a three month guarantee?
cheaper than princess princess margaret or .
no mrs said she was very lucky.
she'd been to three lectures .
one of the topmost veterinary surgeons in europe.
yeah.
and that's why mrs asked her to do it.
she'd actually seen it done.
seen slides and been to lectures on it.
i don't know it must be wonderful to be able to mend .
to rebuild his rear end.
hope he comes out of it.
well as long as nothing breaks, nothing gets .
no, now way must he strain so she's, she's got some liquid paraffin to drop on his dinner.
quite a major operation.
he's been ever so bright.
walking about quite well, he did turn to lick his under his tail but his little tail was wagging.
and he was walking fine.
he even stopped and had a tinkle.
see they don't know it's to hurt.
no no.
no i think i think animals are fantastic they way they put up with pain.
because they can't tell you.
and after a major operation there he was wagging his tail and
you don't know the threshold of pain in animals do you?
can't tell you.
well no.
very seldom you hear a dog or a in pain.
oh you do.
oh 
what's the matter?
odd.
what's odd?
i think it's getting better.
the muscle's gone
do you want a cup of coffee?
cup of herbal tea?
an aspirin?
nothing i can do you for?
oh you're book's upstairs.
do you want that?
.is it actual pain then, or stiffness?
or just that you're frightened to move?
ache?
oh a bad, bad ache.
general bad bad ache.
well you could have just one aspirin.
i've had one upstairs.
i took one .
no that was ages ago dear.
it was half past seven this morning.
it wasn't!
when i came up.
it was late.
you were up getting dressed.
no.
i brought you a hot water bottle your aspirin.
when i let the dog out.
yeah but i didn't take it then.
you didn't take it then no .
you could have another one love.
it would relax your muscles.?
no it's probably gone.
nature will usually tell you .
what i always found with with lumbar aches was erm putting the knee up sideways across your erm .
hello rocket.
how are you rocket?
hello rocket.
oh he's pushing hard isn't he?
ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh.
ooh!
now what do you do?
do you want to be hauled up?
no.
no just lie.
what've you done rock?
rock what have you done?
he's fell on
what have you done rock?
what did you do rock?
rock what did you do?
rock?
rocket.
are you alright then?
yeah.
i just had to let myself go.
i couldn't resist it.
don't try and get up straight.
.what are you looking for?
good try rocket.
has he been out today?
oh yes he's been .
been round the woods at haven't you?
then i went off and left him you see when i 
ooh.
it's a good idea of yours putting me on the floor rocket.
rocket.
.face was awfully funny 
so does yours.
i wouldn't have recognized him.
wouldn't you?
no.
no.
he looked like a muppet.
a muppet?
.
it's the eye make up i think .
mm it would be.
you've got glasses on.
you'd look even funnier.
oh i must do.
he likes his 
pulled it to pieces yet.
well dinda got on alright in with her christmas shopping.
did she?
she's got three or four presents i think.
good.
marks and sparks is horrendous.
oh you've got up off of the floor.
how did you do it?
climbed up the chair.
climbed up the chair?
mm.
and you your side?
yeah i climbed, i went, i came up properly.
crawled .
rolled over on your side.
would you like a cushion?
no it's alright.
do you want a hot water bottle?
no it's okay.
ooh that's .
ooh it's 
it's better when you sit up straight isn't it?
trying to relax it.
it's ever so difficult.
no, it takes quite a lot of .
right sweetheart.
you alright?
yeah.
are you gonna go in to erm walton end or are you 
yes.
gonna leave that until afterwards ?
after what?
after your hair.
no.
no.
don't back up will you else you'll slice my head off.
well what's so funny about mum having her head sliced off?
he just did.
. he just backed up.
he did?
perhaps he used his wing mirror.
like i do.
that's a quite nice little place there.
and you don't pay over the odds prices because it's not an expensive place to have your shop.
oh.
that's good.
you go to these big stores and they pay so much in heating and lighting and staff .
this er pavement's quite nice .
isn't it attractively done?
done like parquet.
don't know who's paying for it all whether council is or what?
so do you want to go over there first?
it's up to you.
what do you want to do?
i don't mind a bit.
well we've got fifteen minutes, well thirteen minutes.
beautiful cakes.
fruit crumble.
oh dear.
it's a good job i don't eat that sort of thing any more .
erm new era 
new era?
mm.
this is all the ice creams.
oh you have a bag of something in the sweet box in the cupboard in the kitchen which you must take and put on your desk.
really?
and let everyone else eat them up.
they're humbugs or something.
oh right.
that's what you're supposed to be having as well, isn't it expensive .
selenium?
who you are?
didn't you read it in the magazine?
you're having selenium are you?
no i'm not.
what, what's it for?
is it for me?
didn't you read it in best?
no.
last week?
no.
mm.
you're supposed to have it.
to make all the other vitamins work or something.
oh dad.
no, you i think.
i think it was for you.
oh.
here we are.
it's not that.
t h i i, that's it.
sounds alarming.
that's it, it really is a help.
is it?
yeah.
yeah.
camomile tea okay, i don't know how many is in your packet?
i gave 
erm probably drunk them all.
i must remember to take one to, there the one's aren't they?
yeah they're much cheaper than safeway.
to 
christmas bananas.
i'm nearly out of feverfew.
better get some.
oh i never find it.
it's in a box like that.
then one of the girls comes over and says here it is, straight away.
.
it's down here somewhere i think.
feverfew just ridiculous.
here it is.
look.
hold on.
erm bananas i need.
do you want a bag?
you won't manage it.
you need another hand.
there's a clever girl.
they don't want to open, do they?
hang on.
you haven't done that very well have you?
oops.
oh mother!
hang on.
put it in there.
well i've only got one hand as well.
should have had a basket.
eggs, new era, camomile tea.
christmas cards.
in there you've put bananas in there.
erm where's your eggs gone?
eggs?
mm.
just there.
to your left.
oh yes of course.
free range.
got lots more to put down.
is that the lot then?
no christmas cards over the road and
oh yeah i know but i meant in here.
casserole dish .
i meant in here.
.
sorry love.
great.
thank you.
nine pounds thirty seven please.
it mounts up, doesn't it?
it certainly does.
thankyou.
thankyou.
you're very quiet this afternoon.
pardon?
very quiet.
for a friday and coming up to christmas .
it is isn't it?
yes.
thank you very much.
would you like your receipt?
not really.
no?
right.
it can go with the rest .
yes.
thankyou.
i don't think anyone ever wants the receipts.
no.
goodbye.
thank you very much my dear.
bye bye.
i hope you've got my gloves?
yeah i've got them.
your gloves and your brolly.
i got keith some rice mixture yesterday and he didn't eat it.
he wanted come on then.
it's warm enough to have the door open.
what do you need here?
christmas cards.
they're er they're in there.
they're good aren't they?
oh no that's, that's where i usually get them.
in that bin.
these are thirty p.
they're quite .
and then robins on the front.
oh they're nice aren't they?
how many to a pack, six?
i don't know.
er
looks quite a lot.
ten.
that's not bad.
for thirty p.
jesus incredible.
isn't it?
that's good isn't it?
i suppose they're all alike but they've put different ones on the outside.
well they must be similar.
erm casseroles.
they probably won't have any cos it's winter now.
they only sell casseroles and things in the summer.
oh look.
there's one but it's not a, not a three pint.
three or four pints she said.
mm.
is that pyrex?
well it's, it's the french equivalent.
is it?
mm.
arcal crystau d'arc yes.
i don't know.
or crystau d'arc whatever you like to call it.
no, she said well she means an oven dish.
still they're very nice.
i wish they'd got a bigger one.
what size are they then?
two one and a half to two pint i would think.
oh they're not very big are they?
and that's a water set.
hello love!
hello.
you haven't got any larger casserole dishes have you?
no .
you want the great big one 
mm
yeah.
about a three pinter.
yeah.
ten pound one.
no we do one like this, in this colour, pyrex but a big one .
oh that's alright.
but you haven't got one?
but no, it's that one there.
that's the size up from that one.
yeah.
that's what we want, yes.
yeah.
but haven't got one.
oh you rotten thing.
actually ask the girls and if they get them, go up the warehouse next week they'll bring you one.
they're nice, those.
they're ever so popular.
we sell a lot of them.
one point five q t it's got on there.
quarts is it?
one point five?
quarts?
one point five quarts.
what's that in english?
well one quart is two pints.
and a half a quart is one pint.
right.
that'd make it the three pints.
so you'd want the next one up wouldn't you?
that would be that one.
well it's a three or four pints she's after.
it's probably a four 
it doesn't look big enough.
are you sure it says one point five quarts?
well it says it on there somewhere.
one point five quart.
well.
perhaps it's perhaps they hold more than you think they do.
i don't know..
what do you think dinda?
should i take this one?
while 
erm 
they've still got it.
it's the last one.
it's not chipped or anything is it?
no.
i've got my hands full and you've got your hands full.
three pint.
see we might not get one more in before christmas.
i'll ask gill and maureen
mm.
take that but then if you, if you really don't think that will hold what you want then you'll have to bring it back.
it's a, it's a, it's a christmas present .
oh i see yeah.
ah.
three to four pints she said.
that looks yeah looking at it
i think it 
it's quite capacious, actually.
yeah.
i think
it's a nice dish.
have you we haven't got a measuring jug.
haven't got any what?
that is right isn't it?
one pint is
well a quart is two pints.
yeah.
and point five of a quart is one pint.
that makes it three pints.
why they can't put three pints on instead of one point five quarts .
but does she want a three to four one?
if she wants a three to four you gotta have the next size up.
three stroke four
well she said three or four.
oh i see.
so obviously she was easy about the size.
i think that would be ample cos usually there's only two of them 
there's only two of them, yes 
to eat anything you know 
yes, yes.
true.
yeah i think we should grab it while we see it actually.
i think we should too.
it'll be half the price it is in boot's cookshop .
do you want me do you want me to drop it or should you drop it?
i don't know.
do you remember jackie, he used to be
another one look.
yes.
and that that one holds quite a lot
no.
no.
do you remember jackie?
he used to be dark haired and worked in the toy shop in sandhurst.
yes i do.
yeah i thought you would.
i knew the face.
used to go in for your model paints and coloured marbles
that's right, yeah.
there you go.
long time, long time ago.
all those years i was there 
you haven't, haven't changed .
you haven't changed.
i mean your face i knew straight out.
it was your hair that got me.
well the grey come through and i was just sort of i thought i can't wait all those years with dark hair.
i had a friend who had long hair and she, she let it grow right the way through.
and for nearly seven years she looked like an old woman of eighty.
yes.
and i thought i am not gonna have that.
well that's right.
i agree with you.
so i more or less had a crew cut.
yes.
and er of course it's still grey now
yes.
except like this bit here which er grows 
i know, oh yes it always grows a dark bit.
but that all took i think, when you're older when you go grey it's, it, you look softer and you get away with the grey coming through on white hair.
yes.
that's right.
but on dark hair.
i mean for years when i was young i was jet black and that was lovely.
yes.
that's right.
you were.
i never had to touch it or nothing.
but when you start going grey you look so
it's pepper and salt then.
and your skin changes.
i used to be right tanned skin.
and that, that even changes as you get older.
yeah that's right.
yes well i, i was very fair to start with.
yeah.
and then it began to get a bit darker.
not my eyelashes and eyebrows they're silver.
always silver.
absolutely silver.
mine are yeah, dark still.
but my, i thought no i'm not gonna go pepper and salt.
that's right yeah.
i don't mind going silver.
that's right.
this is natural silver on the temples.
that's right.
yeah, like, look here you see look.
yes, yes you've got a silver.
i mean i've got, i mean i don't mind this but why shouldn't you do it?
and my friend she looked about eighty 
yes i couldn't agree with you more 
but she still looks old for her age.
yes.
my best friend was your colouring and she always has a rinse.
it's her husband.
she said i don't mind going grey but, but paddy objects because he says it makes him feel old.
oh.
but the thing is 
he' my colouring.
also as well when you're black and you touch it up black when you're old you look hard.
yes.
they usually say go paler.
yeah.
they usually say go to chestnut rather than keep to black.
mm.
actually i wish i'd gone like this years ago cos you get 
yes.
you know much more fun than when you 
you reckon?
i don't know cos i've never been brunette, jackie.
so i wouldn't know love.
oh yeah, i think, i think it's because i i had that severe hair style i think, you know i looked hard.
well i was severe.
i had a severe style.
that's right.
you always had yours didn't you?
the neat pleat mm.
yeah that's right yeah.
mm the neat pleat.
but it was lovely for parties with a black velvet bow and sequins down the back.
oh yeah.
i loved it yeah.
well when you go on holiday swimming.
everyone was upstairs rolling up their hair
yes.
and .
and you could swim, just dry it and then just pull it back.
big scarf and you were made weren't you?
yes.
that's right.
yeah.
that's right.
yeah it was very useful.
yeah.
right.
right.
we will go round this way or round that way?
cor look at that bas oh no it's fine 
she ain't got that problem yet.
you wait till 
no.
she's probably saying oh this is so boring this conversation but when she gets to our age that'll be the same.
well well she'll just she'll just go silver.
she was silver when she was little so i suppose she'll go back to silver.
anything else you want to look at dinda?
no i don't think so.
it's probably about quarter to 
yes i expect it probably is.
hello love.
we'll grab this casserole because erm
hopefully i won't 
what's her name wasn't sure if you'd get any more in of the next size up so
right.
i thought better grab it while it's there.
mm.
it's much, it holds much more than you'd think doesn't it?
yeah, they hold quite, yeah they do these, don't they?
yeah.
just put it in a bag for you.
seven pounds 
so's so's people don't think we've nicked it.
mind you they they know we haven't nicked it.
sorry my love, you want?
seven please.
come back has it?
mm.
i'm counting, i'm counting five isn't it silly they put on there one point five quarts?
yeah.
they couldn't put on three, three pints.
no, no.
yeah, that's right 
european import.
next week when i come in you'll have the next size up.
yeah thankyou.
right.
thankyou 
never mind get my hair done.
thanks a lot girls.
see you again soon.
yeah.
your christmas cards are fantastic.
oh good.
marvellous value, aren't they?
they are yeah.
you can't go wrong with them.
no.
no.
great.
thanks a lot love.
i haven't left my 
now then ma.
you've gotta be a good girl and cross at the traffic island which is up there opposite .
i'll go and see if they've got my wildlife book and i'll meet you in 
coming to collect me.
i'll try not to.
bye.
see you dear.
oh it's cold.
if they have two minutes.
not now, later.
last friday you were packed out.
no because that chair is there she can't sit comfortable, hair dryer's sitting behind.
but you were packed last friday.
you had got perms and heaven knows what on the go.
strange isn't it?
one 
still we had two ladies doesn't come.
ah.
you see she was on telephone three o'clock she can't make it.
because she's going to take her daughter somewhere.
it's alright for her but it doesn't suit us.
well not, not at that short notice.
i know.
unless it's an accident or something when you can't 
no no no she's just going out to daughter.
thank you turan, very much.
okay.
don't know what, don't know what they'll make of all that gobbledegook. bye bye love.
have a good weekend.
see you soon .
see you next week.
this is the wrong side, they must have rewound it without meaning to.
well you're supposed to use side a 
it won't tape it doesn't matter .
but it does to them, because they've got side a and side b on every tape.
yeah.
and if they haven't got side side one tape two following i mean side two side, tape two side a following tape one side b, it puts them out a bit i should think are you going up the dog path?
yeah, come on .
when, when did you get all this stock of perfume?
erm, four years ago, three or four years ago .
.
he went out on christmas eve, to find you present 
that's right, i remember that .
and he got this job lot of perfume, and he said oh i can shot these out over the next few years, i said, oh if you really want to .
where does he keep them?
i've no idea, in fact last year, did he give you some last year?
i can't remember ,
yes, he did .
he said alright, i, i, i was in trouble because i forgot where i hid them.
a miniature one.
i had to look in the top of his wardrobe.
you'll have to look somewhere.
take it all away, he probably gave it to girls at work as well or something.
yes.
well no, cos it would be too late after christmas wouldn't it?
probably, no he doesn't give presents .
oh he does, he gives er his secretary and switch board girl a box of chocolates and a bottle of wine and but i do all the christmas cards
yeah, i know you do
and all the at work.
hold on 
well i got to work all day and i'm still oh do you think, want me i can get you two i'll write you a list,.
i don't have a list from him.
no.
just have to try and remember
oh.
oh in that case this year i wouldn't mention it if i was you, you might get away with it.
then of course there's always, oh he left last spring, oh.
exactly, yeah.
his up in leeds.
well exactly, so don't bother .
people .
and can you do a christmas card for so and so, because he's been, he's been delegated to help me with my machine
yeah
development and mind you i like larry and ken 
.
well larry's, i mean he's a genius, so he is a bit awkward to get along with, erm not awkward to get along his sweet, but he's 
peculiar.
yes.
.
hurry up, be a good boy.
.
no.
said garden.
i don't think so when i went to let him in he'd pulled himself up round the patio and looked as though he expected to be walloped for being silly he's taken us this morning.
the trailers, the cars there, but i can't see, can't see another .
oh well now, when, when do you want to go into on monday, just after lunch?
yeah, be great.
well, yeah,.
.
.
well it could be after we've walked him in the morning.
walk, yeah .
so long as i shove the washing in the don't like it in there it's dingy, unless the sun's out.
yeah, shall we .
if you'd rather.
mm.
give us more freedom in the afternoon if we need to go into wokingham instead, do you want to go that way for a change or this, or through the woods?
come on.
i think maybe 
.
oh here's another dog i think oh it's judy's, not it's not hello, haven't seen you for a long time, hello, haven't seen her for a long time, morning, good morning oh she's a sweetie isn't she? forgotten her name come and say hello, i haven't seen you for ages, so him once on the , good morning.
oh dear
.
oh, oh dear.
about time i did walk round.
have you?
yeah.
haven't got your wife with you this morning too much for her .
no,saturday , well she's got little jobs that she like's to do you know at home
yes.
and so she's not come out.
yeah.
i've forgotten her name .
when, when she does come out she usually likes to walk round on the flat
yes.
that's why i go round this way on saturday's
yes
cos i don't mind
a bit of rough, mm.
er, hoping over the , but she can't
no.
go up those slopes.
no, no, i usually see you together on the or along the flat path, yes .
that's right, yeah , on the flat
that's right .
gotta walk on the flat ,.
i've forgotten her name.
tessa, yeah.
tessa, yes tessa, there's two tess and two jess, oh dear, walk on the
oh are there?
yeah.
oh 
but, they did write to them on the counter and that that trouble, and she said that you know, that we can walk round there you know.
oh yes, oh, the rangers say the same thing, do what you've always done.
yeah.
just somebody on the council with a lot of, a lot of , there's a
they're just a person keeping an eye, i suppose they've got to respond to it you see and then they, they were, you know, they don't come and look .
the ranger's always bring their own dogs.
mm.
always have digger with them.
yeah yes it's eh, it's just someone going awkward you know.
oh that's right.
someone just 
that's right .
does,, he came in one day and i said that we really don't travel a lot you know
mm.
we just go to out here and, or the park or something like that 
yes .
and he said oh you don't go to do you?
i said yes i go there n , most mornings oh he said it's a filthy place, a filthy place you know
who was this?
er, the man that does my car
oh.
you know, the chap from yately
yeah.
and er, i said what you mean charlie, cor all dog's mess all over the place, i said it isn't, i, i said have you ever been and he said no i, i said well there you are, i said if you haven't been i said you don't know what it's like, i said you're talking about some old girl that lives on, in little sandhurst, who's got a thing about dogs and i said kicking up a lot of fuss about it, but i said the women's a dam liar
he's,, yeah.
and i think it's a friend of his.
too true.
yeah,.
but it just shows how, here, i said, how embarr there's no different to any other place where ever you go.
no, no oh i agree people shouldn't let dogs foul on the pavement and in shopping places and things, cos it can be dangerous, but out in the woodlands if it wasn't for all the animals we wouldn't have any green stuff, trees and bushes seagulls are up .
no.
no, it's that , oh.
it seems, it seems calm enough doesn't it?
probably .
well we haven't got to go long for the shortest day.
no.
no.
about three weeks 
.
that's right, that's right.
it's the first tomorrow.
yeah.
.
yes.
that's it, that's right, that'll be alright.
yeah i thought 
get january over and we shall be alright.
oh i don't know february can be horrible sometimes 
yeah , have snow in february before haven't we?.
yes , we had the, we had the six foot drop in february do you remember?were cos we live on a steep hill and
oh
it's great fun 
.
getting up .
everybody comes from miles around, all the kids come and the parents last year, was it last year?
yeah.
it look just like a ski resort all the bright jackets and the woolly hats and it was lovely, i mean they made it into, into an absolute skating ring for driving on
couldn't get your car up .
which, every, every thing went sideways, but it was such fun
mm.
and the sun was shining and everyone had got pla plastic bags, anything they could get to slide on you know
oh yeah.
they were going down our front lawn then down the, then down then down the roadway, cos it's a dead end you see, so there's not much , not much traffic
oh i see, oh you're alright 
it's not, it's not when you get to the end of it then there might be a couple of .
yeah if you, if you're coming up you daren't stop the driver and there's things hurtling at ya, there's kids on sledges coming at you at about fifteen miles an hour and you'll have to try and drive around them and
i'll stick to the old what they've got in california then.
oh yeah, erm, oh i'd rather have our climate i think.
it get up over a hundred, people killed
oh it's horrible isn't it?
it's a high death rate some .
yeah, yeah.
funny actually they couldn't, when the rescue people came they couldn't see where the damage was because of the dust.
really!
mm, it's, it's, it's on this mornings news
oh .
this dust, this dust in california.
i have heard, i have read about it .
this dust , and a, what's it a hundred and fifty cars all piled up on top of one another 
oh shit.
and there's a lot of people isn't it, and they don't know how many's dead because there's so much dust they can't see.
oh how awful.
.
oh that's awful.
so.
i wouldn't like it that dry.
no.
it's the same as that place in australia where they haven't seen rain for seventeen years, i mean there's children who are grown up now at college have never seen a spot of rain, i'd hate that i'd rather have our, sometimes dismal climate.
well look how we get don't we, when er we've gone too long with shower of rain
mm, mm.
you know the sun is nice 
that's right ,
and all that, but it the air get's so dry, that, that, you feel it wants dampening down.
that's right, and when you do get the thunder storm well my family get into their bathing costumes and go out and stand in it because it's so lovely to have the rain.
that's right.
.
get away with that now.
yeah.
oh well, we, really the weather's not to bad, you, you haven't got to be to sensitive about things have you, you've got to just take it enjoy the lot, enjoy
yes, you have.
.
yeah, so far we've been very lucky in, in britain i think, apart from the hurricane damage, once or twice, on the whole our climates is not bad.
oh, you .
yeah, but, you're mad getting worried to much, you know we had our green house all smashed up and everything and it's been upsetting ,
yes .
erm, when you think about after all .
yes, exactly.
mm
.
exactly, you can't spend your life worrying about things, people are important.
you've got to try and enjoy life.
my wife's father er he said to me, cos he was, he worked hard you know, he had a tough life you know up in london and all that as, as a kid and that and he said to me what you want to do, enjoy everyday that you live, i said yeah, oh i said oh but you can't can you?, he said yes you can.
i said but when you're doing the job that you don't like, oh don't do it he said don't do another one 
yes.
.
he's got the right out .
too true.
he's got the right out look.
, but he died soon after that but he'd realised that he'd worked hard all his life
mm.
you know
yes.
really worked hard
yes.
and at the end of it, see you always think that you're going on don't you?
mm, mm.
and you think oh well i'll get my prize at the end.
mm.
mm.
but, but, you don't know whether or not.
you never think this is my last day .
no, it can be can't it?
. go and enjoy every, every minute of it.
yeah, every days a bonus.
yeah, get, get the best out of it anyway .
yeah, you're quite right, or he's quite right.
you don't have to worry too much about money do you really so long as you can manage with it.
ha harry, harry secombe is said after his heart attack there's no pocket in the shroud.
no.
well he's right, there are no pocket's in a shroud and he's seemed much happier since.
yeah, oh yeah.
it's a shame with .
that's what annoys me with erm these big company's you know, opening on sunday's really, because er, you can only get the money, i mean they've only got a certain amount
yeah.
i mean if they could open nine days a week, they couldn't get any more money out of me because
no, you haven't got it.
no.
no.
they're, they're ,
no, me neither .
all they're doing is erm, where people do it on a saturday they, they won't do their, go football or something and then go on a sunday, now i think it's nice to have a, a day when nothing happens.
yes, when it's all quite all the shops are closed .
.
apart from religion or anything else, you know.
yeah,.
yeah.
it, i think it's nicer when, when it
oh yes, not necessarily religious grounds i agree with you, it's just nice to have one day a week where everything is peaceful.
that's right, yeah, where as it's now they're all going to open up, gonna go chasing around 
just be like a saturday ,.
we shan't know which day, there'll be no weekend, will we really
no.
it won't be a weekend.
no 
and that it's all for money and they're doing alright, i mean they're already making so many you know, millions they're making aren't they?
well the big ones are, yeah.
yes.
oh yes.
there's only one thing, it might mean more part time jobs for college leavers and things if they go to work on a sunday in the big stores and they did, give them a foot up to start a job, then get taken on you know as .
but the one's that's gonna be hit i think are, people like old lionel.
yes.
mm.
because he, he's not doing all that good you see, and when er, he, he re he reckons on sunday
yeah sunday morning .
.
but i prefer lionel, i'll go round the supermarket's but i'll shop at lionel's on the way back.
we do, we don't buy .
cos i can pick out his stuff or say i don't like the look of that one and he'll, he'll chuck it in the back.
mm, mm.
and he'll often say to me look there's a fresh box under there, help yourself to what you want, i haven't opened that box.
and, and if you complained about anything, er like we found, perhaps had a banana that's not been quite ripe, he'll give you two or three the next time you go in if you say anything about it 
oh yes indeed, indeed , well only last week i said do need some flowers, come on thursday they're fresh, i said i want them now lionel, i hate to be without flowers in the room and he said well have two for the price of one, he would insist that i had two bunches for the price of one.
mm.
he's very good.
i think he's alright really, he, he, suppose as fair as he can be.
yeah.
dogs.
yeah.
hello, good morning, good morning, all .
can't supermarket's gonna be open, i'll be getting their green grocery's down there and that really.
yes..
told you it was a good idea to save throwing it.
brilliant.
to it.
you taking them to wimbledon?
that's brilliant.
my daughter says when, when did you go to wimbledon?
.
hold a racket .
good ball boy a girl, quite right, gosh she's the same shape as rocket.
they're all good dogs, but he doesn't give it back though.
he does , oh yes he does.
he might he might do.
she, she, yeah she's given it,oh well, we've got to walk old thing i suppose, and then go to lionel's, get some more fresh fruit.
you see they're again there you don't get it in a packet you can pick out the grapes you want.
that's right, yeah.
you can pick them out yourself.
yeah.
oh i, i find that quite good, you know.
and also, you know sometimes he's prices are much better than the supermarket's prices .
yeah , mm.
you don't have to pay for all that fancy lighting.
i've noticed that some of the apples you've been getting from safeway haven't been very good.
no, lionel's are better.
they're quite sour.
mm, well apples at this time of the year are a bit sour.
mm.
i'm sure lionel's wouldn't be.
crunchy, yeah, true.
i haven't had to buy any fresh .
had enough on the tree .
oh, you grow your own, yeah.
yes.
well i have only got a few courts,
yes.
.
but in, in a month or two
yeah.
picking and my wife can't eat much in the way of apples
no.
she get's tummy trouble
mm, yeah.
and they say not to eat apples and oranges, er, at one time they told you to eat the lot didn't they apples a day keep the doctor's away .
that's right, that's right 
see, i said it .
yeah.
and apples aren't all that digestible at times.
i think, and the acid .
i think apples are very acid .
hello tess, how are you.
you've got a funny thing on you, you've got a think on your head, rocket's got a thing on his ear.
ah, there's two.
a wart.
yeah.
rocket's got one on his ear.
who?
rocket has got one on his ear.
i 
oh.
and when he went for his injections i said to the vet can you snip that funny little growth and he said oh we'll wait until he's under, complete anaesthetic and then, it's only a little wart he said.
,.
i didn't like it .
take her and the, and the vet said the same, where that place is er a bad, a couple of years ago she had erm tick
yeah.
we took her up to norfolk and i think among the sheep 
yes.
yeah.
yeah.
and she had a tick and we took her to the vet
hold on.
and, and,and gave her an injection, and that,wart at.
so many .
oh how strange, good morning.
good morning.
good morning.
hello maxie
max.
max come on.
but there's also another little one i've noticed, i just under her eye
yes.
er, with .
doesn't bother her does it?.
no, no, she's not worried, but when we took her up recently, he, he, he said it's only a wart like that, he didn't sort of worry
mm , mm.
and when the hair goes over it doesn't notice much.
no, you can't really see the one on rocky's ear at the moment, you can in some lights.
when ya, when ya, when you're grooming him you can.
and that's happened just recently has it?
yeah, yeah.
no, last week .
well we took him , took him for his injection in october
yeah,three or four months .
they'd have been there about a couple of weeks .
but the little dog i went, i took a friend to collect her little dog from the vet it's had a double hernia, hasn't it, double hernia, it, it had a tremendous operation dear little thing, but she said he had a wart under he's eye and on it's own accord it dried up and dropped off.
oh did it?
mm.
so, so tessa's might
it might be it's just under the eye
yeah,
down below
yeah.
it's very tiny at the moment.
but, we don't like the look of it, you know
no.
but eh, she, it doesn't seem to worry her it's not causing her any
no.
rocky, doesn't worry him.
it seems to be worry you .
oh, i'm careful with the brush , i'm careful, obviously with a brush and comb, i'd hate to, hate to jab it well we've got to go i suppose.
ah,.
that german shepherd having a good, oh he's gone, it's the oh dear
were lucky to have this place aren't we?
oh it's lovely isn't it, it's beautiful.
were lucky to you go and lo look round anywhere else, no where like sanders
no.
because, what with this, the bridges and rivers
edge borough.
, yeah and, and then the recreation ground is, is, when the gypsies's are not there.
yeah, yeah, well the di the difficult is now in simon's wood, in the car park at simon's wood.
ah .
are they?
yeah, they've taken 
only .
over the car, as national trust.
i, i noticed they got shifted, they went to menley, weren't it .
yes, some , some went into the doctor's surgery car park in aylesmore, it's full of caravans 
i mean they're getting now that, that,before they go any where now.
mm.
mm.
yeah.
.
i think they'll find .
oh yes, it wouldn't surprise me at all.
.
i'm not so sure, touch wood.
.
.
touch wood .
.
oh yeah.
they're going, they're, they're travelling .
yes.
the mess they must have made in .
.
hundreds of pounds you know clear all
oh the wreck was incredible wasn't it?
yeah.
it was like a rubbish dump, and yet there's good old erm, grounds man, as soon as the had gone, they were down there, there was half a dozen of them and they got it cleaned in two days.
yeah, i notice that,
yeah.
and it look's good, you know the .
and the , where, where they've used all the, the woodland beside the lake as there toilet facilities
yeah.
and they talk about dogs!
yeah.
gee, i know which i prefer.
yeah.
mm.
well, that's why people to do when they want to take that photograph of our dog that time, when that women
yes.
kick up a row, i said you want to look at the dogs, just go outside and see all the old rubbish that get's chucked out there
yes.
there, there's the kentucky chicken thing
yes.
whatever it is, and throw their cartoons and there's coca cola tins
yes.
i, i, said if if there are , er people making far 
more 
sure .
mess i said than the dogs.
mm, too true.
yeah.
too true they do.
oh you, dinda you've got to stand in one place.
yes.
.
.
honestly doing this wrong.
well we bring a ball for rocket and he'll, he'll run to it and then he'll walk off and leave it, so we have to keep, we have to keep finding it.
you have to run for it.
yes, yes.
yes.
nice chatting to you.
bye bye dear, take care they're a nice old couple.
mm.
his wife's really slow now.
yeah.
she hangs on to his arm and 
but they used to come into the shop.
oh yes, yes.
they use to have a, is it a .
she's a sweetie, she's always got a soft looking smile on her face, he's always smiling too please him 
oh excuse me.
yes, he's worried were
not a lot on tonight, there's only a very apparently dropped.
really.
so,.
well anything else is a let down.
take .
want to get a comedy or a thriller or a drama .
i don't know ,.
dances with wolves is coming out on video now.
ooh, do you think?
well, it's going to be released on the twenty seventh .
i'd love to see that .
.
it's a shame cos if they sold the video .
well i may not, i may not find it as good, don't, they always show you clips as trailers of the best bit's.
i think it's .
but if it's got anything about
.
if they've got the american indian culture in it then it will fascinate me, yeah .
i think it has, it's , it's got a lot of .
it's basically a love story between him and a, see he's a, he's a cowboy officer, and she, she's a indian squaw obviously, they fall in love and they all this sort of vote of comment on .
yes, yes.
but there is a lot of erm, obviously the , the indian ways and so on.
yes, well course i.
the scenery and photography and everything suppose to be absolutely wonderful.
yes that's worth it .
.
a lot of our modern hol 
hello max.
modern come on, no she hasn't got anything for you,.
come on, come on, come on.
you know, it, it makes me smile sometimes when i say come and try the mo modern politic approach to your ache, ache's and pains, your ailments.
.
most of it comes think so, i mean so much of it comes from the north american indians that
mm.
and right back into the er, the keltic legions and the medieval monks.
that's right, there's certainly a .
that's what i said to you, your dad when he didn't want to take aspirins for his restrained back, and him, don't believe in these drugs and i said look, if a monk gave you this he'd, he'd give you the bark of a birch tree, pound it up in a pestle and water and you'd think it was magic and you'd take it and you, relax your muscles, is that what it is?,
i said yes that's what aspirin is originally birch bark.
well of course they used to use the poppy, for people in great pain
oh yeah,.
amputations, child birth gosh the leaves are thick.
mm, they're lovely aren't they?
when ever i see these big leaves you know these big ones
yes.
they remind me of when i was at school.
sycamore oh, sycamore and .
used to get told to go out in the autumn and we used to get told by the, used to get taken out by the teacher into some woods and you would have to collect the leaves .
actually i 
could always , could always see if biggest, biggest leaves like these you know,.
that is a sycamore cos it isn't a, there isn't a conker tree around here that's sycamore, there they are, that's it, that's a sycamore tree, beautiful colour these are dances with wolves.
oh, it's in shop.
if it's
.
if it's good, erm, can i say truthful background of the indians .
well,actually and it might be based on a true story, don't know if it
do you remember when vaughan was, vaughan was doing his meditation
yeah.
and he was trying to get in touch with a north american indian, that a, thingamy in wales was fixed up 
.
wonder what ever came of that.
always very hard to talk to vaughan about things like that, because you asked a straight forward and he goes way, way, over the head 
yeah, i know , he does versify.
and within three seconds my brain just switches off .
well i try to
.
i, i just ask him if, and it, the question that i'm interested in the answer to, like how did it go? and, now he talks at me for an hour until diane comes in and says enough vaughany,cos she can see i sort of trying to edge away 
suddenly cross your legs, ouch .
that's a good idea.
she said to me just say to him like i do enough vaughany, don't want to hear any more.
i said no, i, i would hate to offend him because it's all so well meant being a mother in law you have to watch it.
, honestly you couldn't be much worse than .
oh mother in law is.
.
she's just .
i'm not buying her a present, i mean i'll chip in with a present for you for her and mark if it comes, but we'll have to go to , but erm, you know, she,.
as a person, you know, i'd never have any time .
yes, yes, i mean you never, she lives in that great place and she's got no money 
, they're not, they're not her presents are they, they're from diane.
no, of course, of course .
so, i tell you what, if, if we do end up spending christmas at gonna give me the present i got to di and said thank you di for giving stella the christmas present .
it so .
i mean as an acquaintance i could tolerate her but i .
i couldn't i'm afraid.
well, could do, what i can't forgive is that she was so spiteful to my daughter, she's a sun shiny little sole and she's so full of love for everybody she's so generous
why was she?
she didn't want vaughany to get married again.
oh.
she used to say what diane, i've never heard of a diane, after they were married this
.
and when anyone treats my daughter like that i find it very hard to forgive, i know it hurts my kids, i'm much more up in arms than if they hurt me.
remember that first christmas when she put the cat among the pigeons by saying to me your husband told me that he can't really afford he's flying because you spend all his money, when i, when i've been backing him, saving money for his aeroplane and his lessons and
what did you say to dad?did you say that to dad didn't you say it .
but i thought she was stirring it you see and so did diane.
what did you tell .
i didn't believe her
you didn't, you never .
but he said, i said it as a joke when she was asking me about my flying and i said i don't do as much flying as i'd like to, i've, i've got a wife to support and she takes all the money.
but i said i am the money i gave him his first flying lesson, i paid for it, like i bought his first three cars.
.
i excused myself and went to bed i think but she repeated it so solemnly you see not as, say somebody saying a joking sort of way.
yeah, good stirring .
and it was just after frank had left her and gone to live in that place in .
does, does anybody know what he's doing,.
don't know, last time i asked diane she said oh he's, he's living with this machine he's got in
what machine?
some magic machine.
what machine?
magic machine?
yes.
what kind of machine?
a machine he's designed, i don't know for what purpose, i didn't dare ask, i was going to ask vaughan .
it's not to, it's not to isolate gamma rays .
probably, but he was hiding he wouldn't come out because he said that the men from outer space were after him.
it's funny you know, i've reading, i'm reading silence of, silence of the lambs at the moment and er, you know, it's got in there, a lot of er, er, mentally ill patient's have got this idea that, men, men from mars have .
well i said to diane you know, i didn't laugh, i didn't think it was funny, i thought it was sad and i said but he needs help, if vaughan's you know, he's got two sons, but mark's a bit hopeless and he was at oxford anyway, i said surely somebody should go and get him some some treatment, sanitation.
yes.
you can get cranks, you just believe in flying saucers and a quite happy harmless, but, i think they need checking on to make sure that they are happy with the life they're leading it bothers me a lot
so where is he now?
well he's still in manchester i think.
doing what?
is he living with, living in a .
i think he's in lodgings.
is he?
but of course he got half the value of trafford hall, which was quarter of a million?
mm.
something like that, eighth of a million, it'll do me anyway.
oh listen to that bird, isn't it beautiful it's a thrush.
well .
that's alright degradable.
oh isn't it beautiful, he must think it's spring.
.
oh it's gorgeous oh you beautiful bird..
oh,in't he?
like a spring sound.
i hope they don't start nesting and then get all there .
have a good time wouldn't you?
yes 
yes ,
the .
this is, this is the end of november do not build your nest.
.
oh it's beautiful.
.
really doing his nut isn't he?
perhaps that is his er, this is, this is my place,.
yes, there he goes yes it was a thrush you must come and try and hear the nightingale's again again , you haven't
.
oh, would you
.
would you try, you're supposed to try wish, wish for luck when you tread in it you know.
luck come on.
ooh, where did you go? oh don't look like that, no one 's gonna hurt you baby, might smack your bottom once or twice.
come
come on.
come
in you get.
good boy, good lad , oh that thrush song was a bonus wasn't it?
wasn't it gorgeous?
i should buy some bulbs and ge , oh look at the pretty reeds.
oh aren't they lovely.
aren't they sweet.
haven't got enough with me.
hello, how are you?
fine thank you.
i thought you'd gone away.
.
gone away to the funny farm, yeah, they let me out last week.
oh.
that figures.
help them out you see.
that figures.
getting withdrawal symptoms you see, i only .
do you, if you don't sell 
well,,
all the fruit, if you don't sell all the fruit cakes.
smell of them.
yeah, smell of the fruit.
now, er hello ed, hello love, he's doing a starling job in your absence, isn't he?, isn't he .
i'm warning .
.
he can't leave the place alone, everyday he's here ,
.
grapes no not one twenty, yes, keith goes through them like a hot mouth through butter.
these look drier than the ones at the back, it must be the latest one, or are they all the same?
no, all the same.
that's alright my love you like grapes as well dinda.
i do .
oh look, a little baby one, given you voucher i'll just have half a dozen for you.
that's alright i ain't got nothing to pop back.
have got loads in the garden.
.
erm, couple of, couple of pears.
there we are.
couple of pears for a fruit compact, oh that look's a beauty 
you don't normally come in on a saturday .
i usually come in every day for something.
yeah .
especially now i've got so many
.
so many people on weirdo diets.
an iceberg, four salad tomatoes, some cress if you have it, i did, i did get banana's, and they haven't disappeared yet, oh look the clementine's are in dinda isn't that beautiful, you could candy that, wouldn't it be attractive, candid to keep 
there we are, er four seventy one .
oh aren't they whoppers .
two.
i say,.
yes.
nice and plenty, them .
i've, i've got about four in the bottom of the fridge.
oh.
er what'd i say, cress, got some fresh cress for keith's salad.
.
lot's of iron in that.
what are they in, in the bunches .
the bunches , mm.
so if i grab
that's it.
a bunch like that.
that's it, then it goes in my bars on the window sill.
i've got half an aubergine and i'm not going to make a veg pie anyway, it's a beauty isn't it.
no, i know, i'm just showing how much .
aren't these beautiful.
they are aren't they.
small and perfectly formed, like me.
that's a .
it is, it is i have to polish them every day, aha, are you upset?
yeah.
yeah.
he's, he's got 
i think, i think you should stop fondling it now.
.
he's got a university degree you see, so he knows what i'm talking about, when i say 
oh well 
.
beautiful.
there you are.
i didn't know you had it
i don't know about it.
i didn't know you had a degree until the other day and lionel said oh
oh yeah, yeah, i've got enough money to
.
give me .
yeah.
oh i see.
forge his signature.
and hope it doesn't come to any more than that, otherwise i shall will be in your debt .
but i can't add , i mean i've got a degree but i might not, can't add.
i've noticed you always used a machine .
.
is that it, i don't want the veggies, grapes, pears, iceberg, toms, cress, i think that's the lot .
do you want a bag?.
well it wouldn't come amiss, though 
.
i'd hate to drop the tomatoes half way across the road.
i've already dropped .
you want to drop the tomatoes.
oh it's fun .
.
splat.
part of the fun.
i always leave .
yeah, two eight one, that's about right.
.
there are.
thank you love.
no you're not supposed to put that on top of the grapes.
look dear, don't give him .
you take the bag i'll take the money .
no, i'll take the money, you take .
i've got this the right way round haven't i.
come all the way from amberry you see just to get, just to get stuff from you.
.
i.
.
.
keep a pound coin with me.
do you want a few erm chestnuts sweetheart, you sure?
.
you off sweets, eating two chestnuts instead.
absolutely, no, i'm , i'm already.
thank you ed
bye .
see ya .
have your cup of coffee now, while it's quiet.
yeah.
yeah.
take care.
.
how much money have you got on you?
about one pound
how much do you think a yo-yo is?
oh gosh, that's good for you, you know it's good for your co-ordination.
cos i asked in here a few weeks ago and they said .
my friend in here.
if they're gonna be anywhere, they're gonna be around here.
ten, twenty, forty fi , hello love.
hello love.
have you got any yo-yo's in yet?
no we haven't, were 
oh .
waiting for them to come in.
i'll ask again on tuesday and see if they can just send me.
.
who's it for you?
yeah.
no it's not actually it's for my, my young nephew.
oh.
oh, oh, oh.
a fuss.
it's ever so therapeutic.
yeah.
yeah.
i just saw somebody put it on them on the .
i used to be quite good at
and i'll ask again on tuesday when i ring.
it's supposed to be very good for you.
i used to be very good at this, i use to .
so did i 
yes, you did, yes.
we'll put it on the list and i'll try on tuesday for you.
.
so that's all i've got with me after i've been to .
well, you've anyway, so.
if they're more than eighty, i, i can't have it anyway.
so you want to keep
yo-yo,.
oh .
i'm all ready if i got my handbag, but when i start walking because of the cars being broken into i don't carry a handbag, you see, i just carry money in my pocket.
oh, there's a lot had their cars broken into .
i've had mine done twice, mine done twice, mm, the police were up the other day lying in ambush, and i'd spotted them and phoned the local police station and said there's men lurking in the bushes of are they policemen?, she said yes madam, they're policemen.
i don't, i thought they looked to they looked to clean and, and well groomed
yeah.
to be erm, sort of scroungers.
right, it doesn't pay to leave your handbag in the car.
no way.
certainly doesn't.
it isn't the money because the insurance company pay me back the money
yeah, yeah.
the car insurance mends my windows, but it's, it's your bank books, and your credit cards
i know.
and your driving licence
i know.
your insurance, all those little things you know, and you don't
cos there's been a lot done, they've all done it left their bikes in the car .
yes, yes.
well i was in the pet shop 
tie round your neck .
ah, but they're again they 
.
but then they could hit you on the head if they saw you've got it with you.
.
mind you i've always got a dog and a stick .
as a puppy
oh yeah.
.
yes.
stick him on the end that.
it's true.
you want to get one of those waist belts and put it under your .
in the summer i have one of,
.
used to be , i bought it in here ,
yeah ,
remember the 
yeah ,
shoulder-less purses on, on a 
yeah, yeah .
well they are now, my daughter now has a proper bum bag, but this was just a school, purse for school, just for break time.
oh yeah, yeah.
and i use that in the summer, when i don't want big pocket's 
yeah, yeah, good idea .
i think .
keep your hands free 
i must have washed me hands .
you have to think when you've got, like me with my two little grand daughters, you know .
that's right , you need three hands..
true, if i'm, if i know i want, might want something extra, i, i, stick a fiver in, this pocket
yeah.
if i loose it well, it's, hard cheese.
yeah.
it's better than er
yeah.
better than this thing
.
cos my daughter you see, i get so cross if anyone's at my car, i'm likely to go for them.
i nearly caught a man once erm, but i turned the whistle to the dog and he must of heard me, he dropped, into his car and drove off, if i could of got the dog in faster i'd, i'd chased him, my daughter said, no you stand back and take no not , but i'm not like that you see.
no, you think why should they get away with it .
yes, i'd whack him on the head with me stick or something.
yeah.
and of course i'd get accused of assault.
oh, you'd be the one in trouble.
oh yes, oh yes, i would, i'm sure i would.
thank's a lot girls.
. are you looking at they big doggy?
i was looking at the scalectrix.
scalectrix, that's the next thing is it?
oh look, come on, yeah christmas lights are up not a lot mind you, a few bare bright bulbs.
mm, mm, shop 
what is that patch for?
i don't know..
.
i don't know my dear.
hello baby we weren't long were we?
haven't seen dan in there for a long time, i thought he'd left lionel and gone off to get a a highly lucrative job somewhere you don't somehow expect to see a, a young man with a university degree working in your local green grocer do you?
mm, what's his degree in?
i haven't asked him, i didn't like to.
they must have been high up in the tree,leaves.
is that a beech tree?
yeah, that's a beech tree 
where's the .
beg your pardon, you're right
i didn't recognise it, it hasn't got any leaves on.
i beg your pardon, it does look like a beech bowl doesn't it?
yeah it does,.
yes, you're quite right it is.
no up where the other's are, where they've just hidden in the bushes, i found sum brand new ones on wednesday or thur , after we had the heavy rain why we going this way?
.
oh, i'm very fond of the meadow walk get any more wild ,actually, i suppose there are rabbits and things up here.
but there are.
we should come one day at dusk and the bunny hoppers will be out, or of course very early in the morning.
why, you wouldn't come very early in the morning.
.
.
brooks lovely isn't it?
the what?
.
oh yes.
i don't think i've ever been to , quite pleasant .
surely that's the , that is the house where queen elizabeth the first spent all her girl hood.
i've no idea.
perhaps it was burnt down and re-built or something didn't seem at all tudorish did it?
.
.
you think all the big houses in london that are now official government all along the strand big private houses, savoy palace, the .
mm.
way back in the thirteen, fourteenth century.
mm.
and your name sake barnard of bolier that's his palace opposite on the other bank of the thames.
mm .
i'm still amazed about eighty gardens though.
eighty gardens, oh made me laugh.
well that's not what amazes me, eighty gardens.
eighty gardens, but then as a place that size, and the didn't have any machinery don't forget everything had to be 
well i expect now, they've got about five .
i should think they probably still, in the, in the high season, i should think they probably still need fifteen, twenty 
oh look,tractor .
i think it still belongs to the duke of devonshire because he was interviewed at the end wasn't he?
mm.
and he said they have to systematically sell something to keep the place up.
mm.
but if they can use that er beautiful water 
ah right.
to generate their own electricity, save them a bomb and they can sell some as well.
i know a lot of people say they shouldn't 
good idea .
have houses that size, but i think it's an awful shame to let our heritage go.
yeah, i agree, if people did .
i tell you another thing that amazes me, how any one with a sovereign right,were a sovereign in those days, could have given up the palace of westminster which is so beautiful,palace, together i suppose reigned after the duke of is it?
.
it was only built erm, what a couple of hundred years ago wasn't it?
what buckingham palace?
mm.
i don't know, i didn't realise.
at kensington, kensington palace, but the palace of westminster i think is the most beautiful building
mm.
and of course they had the thames which was their main highway, thames was much easier to use than 
well that was buckingham palace was er .
oh yes.
.
oh yeah.
.
i think buckingham palace is lovely compared to westminster palace, beautiful old stone and the, and the shape of it and it's windows, it's beautiful huge of course, there again the court then had loads and loads of er, there were ten .
..
and a lot of the government, governing people of the country oh it is a bit chill and damp isn't it?
did you mention anything to your dad about wanting to watch dances with wolves?
ah, i wouldn't of imagine for one second he would want to watch, so it might be better if i buy the video and see 
no, no ,
you can watch it at your
why you gonna get something
heart's delight.
something more adventure, i don't want to buy it, i may, i may not be that keen on it
well you know, in that case you'll have to wait until he goes away somewhere for the evening.
didn't like fantasia, where i can listen to the music and watch them.
oh, we'll see what's going on, have a look .
i would like to see dances with wolves he'll probably be asleep any way dinda.
he puts the variety performance on he'll go to sleep.
mm 
he's actually been out of his armchair today long enough to erm, spend ten minutes putting a washer on the hand basin in the loo.
oh,
and you could of done that last weekend,.
should of done, yeah 
i owe a letter to dida.
mm.
i don't know whether i owe one to madge or not, probably i do.
mm..
she owes me a letter, thank heavens, somebody who owes me a letter instead of vice versa.
can't remember whether i owe madge a letter or she owes me one.
here dog.
he's probably having a visit run like bat out of hell good gracious.
oh look.
oh sorry.
hello magpie, there's two of them ooh come on, come try again.
. are there's a playful one coming, ah, been called away what a shame.
he's a devious one .
border collie, a sheep dog.
.
i read somewhere that if you have a collie
yes .
dog you must make sure that they're occupied
oh yes.
cos they're such smart little dogs,
they get into mischief.
that erm, they have to be occupied doing
yes, yes.
they are, aren't they, they really are very smart.
oh yes, well look how kelly could get.
oh yeah, they're like a hyperactive child.
that's right, very much.
kelly was alright, as long as he was doing things, but he wanted to be doing things all the time.
he had so much energy even when he got old, he had so much energy.
yes.
remember when he went up to the aeroplane, jim only hate to haul him away and slap him once and he learned, he didn't go near an aeroplane any more
mm.
kept right away from the aircraft.
mm 
there's a teddy bear again, gorgeous.
.
.
we'll have to say hello to her she's, oh yes you're so, oh, oh, oh my goodness, what have you done to your 
.
ah it's what.
she is isn't she?
when you gonna go off, ah, ah, ah, watch it, that's a lady, watch yourself.
what do you want the lead?
you need look like that.
it's when one is on the lead i think the other's feel the disadvantage ,
get on a bit .
he should be about eight and a half, he's rescued.
dog you are, you're horrible.
it's not like him to grumble at a bitch.
you're horrible 
only nine months .
thought she was pretty young, she's going to be whopping when she's
yeah.
your horrible.
dad was that?
what?
above your head.
.
here then,get a bit too cold for them wouldn't you?
yes, yeah.
she's longing to go for a gallop isn't she?
oh yes, yes.
oh, all full of energy aren't you love, she's a beauty, what's her name?
topsy .
topsy .
suit's her doesn't it?
she just growled and growled and growled, didn't she.
.
.
she
look for a new home for her now that's the trouble
dad.
you what?
you've got to look for a home for her now, cos we're er, moving home .
oh no , oh you can't keep her?
not really, no, were going to america.
they let british come into america
yeah, it's the accommodations.
yeah.
come on girl.
not the other way round of course.
no, no.
dogs from britain can practically live anywhere
yeah.
hel hello topsy, hello topsy, i'll shall squeeze your feet if you do it any more, i'll shall squeeze your paws and you won't like it.
is that a good way of stopping her doing it?
mm, i always use to do it with my german shepherd.
yeah, but they don't .
cos, cos they're big enough, if they even in love, they can knock a child, well they could knock a grown up flat on your back.
she'll not be too .
yes, no squeeze the paws ,
we got ,
not, not too hard for her but enough so that it's uncomfortable
yeah.
and they hate it, and after, after a week, after a week of having their paws squeezed every time they jump up,stop .
i've a lot, a lot of my friends have got big dogs and they say oh they will jump up and i say squeeze her paws, it usually works
mm.
in a week, ten days, something like.
i'll have to do that.
they're a very , but they can still knock you flat on your back.
oh yeah, well she's had a, a some old chap who was walking around here, she just ran past him
yeah.
and she just caught the back of his leg .
oh yeah , behind your knees you can.
he just crumpled up.
i say she's only doing, she's only playing around.
oh yes, it's all affection.
mm, i'll have to try that with the feet, come on.
bye, bye.
do you want to play?, want to play?get it, get it,
come on.
get it, get it oh play rock.
.
look.
.
another seven months.
seven months.
and they can't keep her?
pardon .
moving , moving to america.
oh what a shame, have they got somebody to take.
well i'd imagine they'd go too there, and they're still looking for someone .
oh,.
you'd like to take her would you?
.
when she was trained, stop jumping up and things she'd be a nice dog.
, if i wasn't at work i'd take her like a shot.
yes, so would i.
wee, get it.
but erm
get it.
, you should have told him to put an advert in .
have ads in where?
i don't think they're been yet.
i would imagine .
where you going?
into the dog walk.
come on 
i don't know if the ranger's put any seed down or what, but they all seem to like, they all seem to like the smells round here 
after you.
you be a good lad now?
good boy.
whoops.
good boy.
god it's carpeted with leaves now.
haven's seen sam.
no.
or davey .
good boy, hurry up good boy rocket 
.
what, no, no, you'll try and go get back across the meadow, i expect.
probably will.
hello.
hello, alright 
i wouldn't trust those two any further than i can throw them.
my instincts straight away.
mm.
you reckon, you reckon they're bonny and clyde do you?
i wouldn't be surprised if they were the sort of people who had the stolen bicycle down in the bushes.
oh dear, they haven't go a dog, but they went on the dog walk!
ah.
again today.
no, no, no, what every you like ,
,
if you like dog crap on your shoes.
yeah,at home shoes off.
no rocky, no, no, no 
what, what, maybe he wants to, maybe he wants to you know what.
oh come on, you know him, he'll just takes us up the woods for the hell of it.
honesty.
come on then, come on come then, be a good boy, hurry up .
he's eaten another dish of biscuits.
cleaned out his dinner bowl and eat more biscuits.
foxes you after is it?
good lad, good lad, good lad.
hurry up.
good boy good boy good boy.
i'll have to try that.
you looking at your favourite tree again?
gorgeous isn't it?, beautiful tree.
strange how the lebanon should be cover with them isn't it?
chance of bright spells this afternoon, getting horrendously murky.
.
oh look over there, it's, it's 
.
black, except for the occasional, little topping of gold.
yeah,is it?
try and get one of these gadgets, and see if we can er get the nightingales next week.
there's 
i don't suppose the radio part of this is put in then,.
i'm not messing with it, just recording playing back.
.
not that i like walking around with music blasting anyway, i'd rather listen to the birds.
mm oh, i'm warm now after that walk.
good.
.
no sign of sam, ah here he comes, hold on then, the dogs gonna have a talk.
your friend's coming, your friend's coming, your friend's coming, look, look who's that, who's that, who is it?
who's down there, who is it, who is it, who is it?.
hello sam, hello, hello, hello, hello.
he don't know who to say hello to.
hello sam.
he don't know who to say hello to you or me or what .
three of us he's gonna have a widdle, that'll sort all the problems out, hello.
how's , how's your eye.
keep still a minute, let's have a look, come here, sam, sam 
hey, sam, sam , come here.
keep your head still a minute we want to look at your nutter.
it looks much better doesn't it?
getting your fur fur back.
that's right, you see to him, go on you see to him, you see to him,.
trouble is rocky, rocky's knackered from his walk and so is .
, hello davy .
that's great , rocky, rocky's panting a bit, seems a bit tired but sam's all fresh.
he has, he hasn't been very active actually 
there is an unfair advantage here 
he was looking 
sleeping in the car today, that's what it is he's just woken up.
cos i looked .
he's been asleep in the car .
didn't get a bite on any of them, not even a take, crabs 
oh the fish are about down there
where?
can you see?
seagulls are out there 
they're not gonna catch any big ones are they?
nothing noticeable, it's normally a good sign though
put some speed on 
you are oh speed is ninety around here
what?
speed limit's ninety around here
seventy
yeah, but we always go eighty, they always allow you to go ten
what is she doing?
pulling over to the right lane to turn right down the royston bypass
what a prat, she should of been further al further along
why?
because you don't pull out in front of a car going seventy miles an hour
how do you know it's a she?
because it's an obnoxious move, it must be
looks like a fella to me
that is no i can't see, wow
quick overtake her see if we can see
sorry
stop in here, do it all
no
let's go and see in do it all
do it all won't have one
yes they'll have one, i've not been in there
go and have a look in atlantis while you're here
what's atlantis?
atlantis has got, they're an electrical shop, they're on sales, see if you can find 
no, i don't, i want the tap all bloody stuff, i don't want a new whatsit
you can see 
yes exactly, dad can get erm fifteen percent off there and you can give 
that's his car
he didn't want one, i say you're gonna get one if, if, if, if mr going, you'd better go and get one, but oh no she wouldn't
poo!
what stinks?
the plant 
the bloody plant?
oh no
no wonder they're selling them
mm, they stink
oh i love it
do you wanna smell?
oh toxic
is it?
no,
what's what stinks then?
oh i didn't want to tell you this phil, but 
what?
it's the 
you've gotta
no, this isn't gonna smell, i like the condom it's wearing 
it's just the things you poke your hairs up on a sharp stick
you can do a blue movie with this thing
what?
do shut up, what's that doing in there?
get it out
oh dear 
have a goody
oh thank you, oh i love these, what you done to them?
don't know, they're melting
what have you done?
i use that thing which sort of congeals them together
that was a long word, congeal
here's another word conjugal
i don't know why, good god what the hell's he doing over the road?
he's not in the middle of the road
he's not supposed to be in there, what the bike is doing, you're not allowed to go on this road
it's a woman
i rest my case
yeah
women 
erm close your window
why?
otherwise you'll knock out the record
oh, sorry about that
i thought was cold
i apologise for any temporary loss 
i wonder where i'd get that vinegar from?
i'd probably get it from boots
boots
mm
ah well, there we go
mm
there we go
do you rest your case?
yes, this 
mm?
aha, you can try in quick save, they might have one
i doubt it
you can try 
oh yeah 
and where here?
mm
i shall go in
here i go, here i go, here i go, we are off to the show to the show ho 
we didn't do bad here, it was quite quick actually
always quite quick, always quite quick 
doesn't cost me anything, me personally it costs the practice
ah, but who's gonna pay for it oh hurry up, hurry up, hurry up
what?
i need the loo
and i need a sweety, have another sweety
thank you, i love these, mm
what you love them for?
what?
what you love them for?
i just like them
what?
i just like them
you do you
mm, yeah
oh mind my fish erm best get all the work done tomorrow
why?
cos we will i'll come dressed for dirty work tomorrow
there's dirty work afoot eh?
that's right
do you want morse taken out?
if you can find him you can tape him
why's he home?
no
how?
anything you want taped?
no
he started he's back next weekend
who?
morse
no he's not
brand new series, yes it is
is he?
yeah, brand new series
oh good oh right
it look's quite good actually
i erm, it's on tonight er old regan's on tonight
regan?
mhm regan
oh
john thaw in regan
oh right
pilot for the series i thought it was gonna stop
i doubt it 
i hope he is 
do you want that taped?
no thank you
alright then, oh regan as in sweeney?
yeah
oh
pilot tape for it you see
oh right, yes yes the sweeney it's quite good it ba, ba, ba with dennis waterman,ba, ba, do, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba quick mow that jogger over got him, now we've got time turn this when we've done this, erm, put the plants in and everything till i gave it at table tennis 
you can't get any work done if you play table tennis
well we'll get the motor work done first
mm
then play table tennis
no
yes, i've gotta have a chance to win again 
no chance
where were they, five five games on?
er, no you won six five
did i?
yes
oh
it was quite disastrous
mm
so we'll go from er six five up to whatever
oh look at those big beggars
er are they swans or geese?
don't know, geese i should think
geese, get the guns 
herons , herons
they're not herons, herons don't fly in threes
how many do they fly in then?
ones they're still 
they fly in one's what?
on their own 
singularly
that's a long word isn't it?
singularly yeah that's not so bad
what's it mean?
something to do with singling,si si singing
we we can have a game of count down masters
count down masters
cogitation don't follow that one up 
mm
come on oh the loo, how much further is it?
i'm getting desperate
ah desperate's a good word
desperado, singular desperate
mm
latin for desperado
oh dear oh it's down about here when, did it the other day, and the woman just drove out straight in front of me from another lane
lovely
i just, i mean, why bother having roundabouts i ask myself
well it was a woman come on
yes it was a woman
women don't comprehend roundabouts, driving cars
oh 
you should know that by now, nothing is ever 
it is an excuse
what?
er don't put your ear piece to the micro to my blooming sweets
i'm not keen on ear droppings in my sweets
they're not mine, don't worry
mm, i know
i love it, i love it.
so why have you started taking up the bag?
why have i started taking up?
the sweets 
they are marginally easier to eat that way
i don't mean, i mean why have you taken up the other, the plastic bag and put it in that?
mm, why it's a horrible bag?
oh, oh you can pop in and get your fishing magazines while you're down here
why?
well why not?
what fishing magazine?
your fishing guides
it's shut is it?
it shouldn't be it's six o'clock
not stopping now i haven't got no money anyway sorry i haven't got any money for the tape oh dear 
oh fish and chips, i fancy fish and chips
no you don't
well i fancy the woman serving 
my, it's a man
it's a woman, i wouldn't mind her on a bed of lettuce, ha, get out the way morons.
have you ever tried max's kebabs?
no
mm, pretty good, hey there's danny's dad, he'll go right up high, erm up er, up roman road, i bet you
which one?
that one in front see it's gone, ram him over
oh 
not to over there, dear oh dear
i want to be danny's dad, i want to be danny's dad go that way look
oh he's going the wrong way, moron, mm, where's he going?
bonsoir, bonsoir
wow oh dear
what?
i now realize why it was reaching love it, it's getting right 
erm,bom bom bom 
so if we're going to do er i'd better unclip this hadn't i?
yo
yes
not one
not once
not one but two
oh that's awful
oh dear 
you'd thought that these houses could of least put a bit of paint on
why?
make it look more attractive
no 
they look grotty like that 
i still think that you should buy jean a range rover
why?
she likes them, nice cars
i'll buy her a dinky toy one 
they're beautiful
mm, they might be beautiful but they're difficult to run
what do you mean difficult to run?
they're a damn sight more efficient than this i'll tell you that for a start
rubbish
they take more petrol, but servicing-wise they don't require as much
rubbish they're probably a lot more expensive to run than this
well just because this is a jag h j six convertible, it's neither here nor there 
oh, what the whole part of the problem running is, is the depreciation thing, the more, the more you spend on a car the more the more depreciation you're going to get
oh i suppose so
i'm not saying i suppose it's better 
well this is a classic car as they go
it's a, it's a, it's a er 
oh no
what?
le pool de javelle horse dirt, mm
i don't know if we're supposed to be talking er french
we weren't
ah at last home
so that's basically, i now got a b grade for and that gives
mm
so that's english, and i've gotta get, er he reckons he'll get a b grade for the er lit, but i was so cheesed off with that erm piece i got today, thirty five and thirty five, one mark off being er an a, he put at the bottom aargh, if only you'd seen the lousy ending, cos he said if i'd got the, an extra couple of sentences it er would of been forty eight, forty, so that's, so annoying, but i've now gotta write an informal letter, i don't know how that comes under informal letter
you write to an imaginary friend, you're inviting him down for the summer holidays and you say all that, all about the sort of things that you're planning to do with them, make it up
can you put bad spellings in those as it's informal?
no you cannot, you'll write it like a normal, a formal letter, like you would write to melanie
that's not formal
it's informal
it's that use of formal
no an informal letter
you said write like a formal letter
well you do, but you don't put, don't put like heading for a business thing and
oh
just the normal address and date and dear wh whatever it is
er
and then you write, just write a set paragraph just as you would normally.
see if i can get a grade a for this one, that, if i can get a grade a for the er next two pieces that i'm doing, which i've got to hand in, that could take me to a b grade after that.
did you erm, give in a formal letter?
no he said don't give them in yet, but do the informal first, so i'll do the informal, we've got to do an informal
well don't talk about it, go and do it
yeah i'll do it later
well do it now you're not doing anything before dinner
dinner's now 
no dinner's in at least twenty minutes at least if you rough
twenty minutes
probably, if you just rough out
yes it's easy enough those so, i hope they don't get bitchy because most of mine are on, on the computer 
well then write the song through, write the informal letter by hand
yeah, i might do
your handwriting's quite nice and neat
erm, oh i've got another piece back that i've twenty nine, twenty nine as it goes
that's a c innit?
yeah, but that goes, that goes in the lit file, so i got rid of my er with the thirty five i managed to get rid of erm 
who's got all these things?
they're at school in a box
thank goodness for that
but er, so now i've got a thirty six, thirty five, thirty four, thirty four, thirty four, thirty two and thirty, so that's a b count in b file, so there's no hassle with that, but if i can get on and get rid of the er, i've got twenty eight, twenty nine in there as well, er twenty eight in there as well, so i want to get rid of the twenty eight and twenty nine but it is a guarantee that a b file, so there's 
mm 
no real worry about it, but erm i want to do better
what about your economics?
or don't you know that yet?
yeah, he still keeps far faffing around with the erm whatever detail, yeah, he still hasn't given it to us
well how you supposed to do it?
did you get, did you get that thing finished er geography whatever it was?
something, something
science 
well well whatever it was you 
no 
had to finish off?
no
why not?
because i didn't have time, but er they started geography course work today and i was out the lesson
why were you out the lesson?
the drama thing, so i'm a se a section hand already on that and i've even got a, well we're supposed to listen to it tomorrow, we've got a tutor period instead, so it means that we miss another lesson
can't you copy out what you, what you missed?
yeah, i'm out tomorrow night, i'm out school, selling books again so should be at home
when you gonna get all this work done richard?
yes i'm trying to get it done, but i am getting pressure from the year group as well, it was, and so i've got that, back out at wednesday, so i'm gonna have to have my hair done last
gonna wednesday what?
erm, got a rehearsal haven't i?
but you can't back out of the whole rehearsal
i mean i've backed out of going, having, i'm supposed to be working on that on the stalls as well but i backed out of that and said i've got a hair cut, erm, so i'll have to be done last.
it's not, it's not gonna go on very long is it?
yes, er probably until about half four 
well that's alright, she ain't she's not here till half three in any case
yeah, you'll have to come home a bit er, a bit er
yes i know
she's so this'll probably be our last appointment here wouldn't it?
no i was saying to her i'd probably have one more before i go anyway and er i'm, i'm gonna ask her if she with my, cos at that nana's there, i mean there'll be four of us there, it might be worth an hour and a quarter drive
what her?
she wouldn't wanna drive an hour and a quarter
well she might not, she might do
she wouldn't drive an hour and a quarter, it's not worth it
well we haven't much choice, we'll have to arrange something else that's all, mm i don't, i don't wanna give her up, she's a good hairdresser
well you can hardly ask her to drive round and er an hour and a half
an hour and a quarter 
for twenty quid
it's not twenty quid, if melanie and i have our hair permed, that's, that's two perms and two, two cuts
and granny have it done
possibly
dad can have it done
possibly
nice family outing
er if she was to come over
saturday
no, no, no 
she won't do that 
but she could, i dunno perhaps we can work something out, i dunno, er failing that we'd have to come out to her house 
oh right, yeah, i'd rather go up the road, stupid
i know, but she's really good though, i be shall sorry to erm, have to give her up 
oh dear, see that tutor tomorrow morning for an hour, hey hey
what, get the job er copied up then
i can't do job, it's course work, don't you understand?
well
how am i suppose to copy up course work, it's my own work
do, do you study that at home then?
what?
a science or something
mum it's a tutor period, it means work
oh you'll have to work then 
don't sit around for an hour doing nothing 
i realise that richard
but don't be stupid
look, if you've got work to copy up, why can't you study and work in
because he's a tutor
what do you do in it?
i have d r n l as to do
mm, i used to let my when it's tutor period, get on and do some revision work
good grief.
and it's much nicer it, they know what they've got to look at.
i've got to go and see wally in tomorrow for the forms, i ain't got any forms to fill in cos i'm officially not leaving, i'm only moving
that's right, that's right 
change of address 
i don't know it yet
it will be change, i can't say, is it, i mean i said it's a change of address, they know i'll probably be moved in four to six weeks 
do get that out of your mouth please
which is it gonna be?
i'm not signing or changing anything richard until we have exchanged contracts
oh yeah, that's easy muck around do what i do 
no richard because the whole thing can fall through when we have our survey done it might show a defect or something, we might pull out, when they have their survey done it might show a defect so they might pull out, you don't do anything richard until the contracts have been exchanged, then you can start saying right i think that's, that's, every thing's definite
alright we were doing company law and 
mm, mm 
i was damn good i knew everything, first i had to watch the accounts and secondly i'm looking at all this stuff for when i start my business
mm, mm
so i'm saying ah that's that and that, that, so i basically have we were looking at erm, what's it?
partnerships, did you know that if i start a partnership with phil right, mum
mm
i will be completely liable for erm liability
yes
but that's, wouldn't affect me because i'll be taking loans out so there and i can have up to twenty er partners, nineteen in fact, because there's twenty partners altogether, basically, so there is definitely benefits for being in partnership
as if er, there's not, if you've got twenty partners or there's twenty of you altogether you're splitting profit twenty ways 
i'm not having twenty partners, i'm having phil and that's it
what, we'll sort it out later
erm
when you've got the capital right?
erm, but sole, we're looking at sole proprietor as well, there's some good things in that, i e they're cheap to set up, stuff like that, so they're not bad as they go, but, i suppose well i'll have to sell when i've got more money, i didn't get any replies today not a single blooming one, i'm a bit cheesed off, so erm, i think i might ring back that one of the ones that i did get a reply from and say thank you.
i would leave it for a while richard
well dad said i should say something
i would just leave it for a while
but er, it's all i've had for now i suppose,oh god i've got maths tomorrow, hate maths
no you don't
i do 
well that is, that is a really stupid attitude to go into isn't it?
oh i hate it
no you
be one g c s e i'll fail
don't be so silly, if he drops that glass i'm gonna kill him 
dog went mad when i 
eh?
sorry?
dog went mad
mm, mm
dumping himself and running around and banging into doors and things, stupid mutt, so er, erm give him his bonio, he gets, he now barks at me when i sit down, till i get up and give him his bon bonio mum
mm, mm
well he is so cheeky, and you can tell when he's hungry cos he goes back for and stand by it again, sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't
well more fool you for letting him
well he's obviously hungry if he wants say have a second bonio so i just give it to him so what oh excuse me will look good with my full colour and commendations and credits and
which means we've done three times in a night and a half, agnes?
oh, she's useless!
so you're gonna write up the list?
yeah, may as well.
but today when we finished up to the middle of th here.
but erm so as what we have to do is to basically arrange start arranging things.
like songs.
what do you reckon i should get?
sort of trout trout hors d'oeuvres and stuff?
oh my god!
i can't stand fish!
no, do smoked salmon.
or smoked salmon hors d'oeuvres.
you know, bits of smoked salmon on cheese sticks and things.
ya.
poke people's eyes with a 
cos you don't want wanna have a meal, sort of nicknacky that you can sort of nibble.
like donna!
sausage rolls and stuff like that sort of thing.
yeah.
i don't suppose you fancy taking this tape machine home tonight do you, and recording some of your conversation with your brother or something?
the longest conversation we have is, get off the computer, it's my turn!
er, i wonder if we should take this to school tomorrow?
oh great laugh!
yeah, i tell you what you could take this to school for me.
why?
and you could tape it, er imagine it's yours
yeah.
well, then you won't get the comments will you that i get?
yeah.
what do you think?
one of the lessons i've got are design, and not a lot happens in design.
what about german?
we er
german?
oh yeah, it's all in german,yeah !
art?
i don't think you wanna record those,you'll hear the conversations we have about you !
oh!
what about me?
no we don't really.
andrew!
erm
what is in that stuff?
are you quite finished ?
no, why?
don't do it!
turn this off.
oh!
erm
all you can do is leave it,ge take the out that one you know, like a and that, put that over the e end so it; s a nice warm bit like here, just enough to see.
oh you'll have to buy a new light top.
mm.
you could of course, have a big marquee in the back garden.
oh yeah!
richard.
what?
er, we're not gonna be able to tape er la law.
yes you are!
i asked first!
erm, no because we're recording red dwarf for dad.
i'm sorry, i asked first!
i don't care!
i do!
because you can tape like music, beginning music and then he can tape it, he only wants a couple of minutes beginning.
if you only want the bloody music,whe i, what's the point of taping in the first place!
i want the music, cos i wanna co introduce them to music, so tape it, i asked first!
you got a tape recorder there!
i asked first!
well it's, i don't care!
so you tape the music, i asked first!
use that!
no!
i asked first!
use that!
alistare!
no!
it's my damn tape !
right!
okay then!
yo fine, i'll just wipe the thing!
it won't survive, i'll wipe it!
flipping scum!
punch his face in!
not like brotherly love!
i hate him!
ah tho yo re , ah you don't really!
so, we can have 
a marquee out in the back garden.
wo!
what's this?
be a bit cold wouldn't it?
valentine, to richard, from richard.
i know!
ro roses are red, violets are blue, i'll get straight to the point, i want to bonk you !
roses are red, violets are blue, most poems rhyme this one doesn't !
no, read it properly!
read it
right!
properly!
roses are red the day is blue, my only wish now is that i spend it with you.
roses are red, violets are blue, i'm writing to tell you i'm in love with you.
you never see me who wrote you that then?
er, er er er, mel .
i bet you, i bet you can't guess who .
thank you!
no.
told you!
you didn't believe me did you?
and i had a valentines card, ha ha ha !
ho, ho, ho!
a tough, tough !
you know what he's waiting for ?
yeah..
see you've made a mess on the board as well.
mm!
i mean it why grey inside?
i wonder which poem book she got that out of?
no, she wrote it herself.
how do you know?
because, i do!
roses are red, violets are blue, i'll get straight to the point
i want you!
i want your body!
mm mm!
noticed the poems rhyme without detection there.
it's because,i have a rather large 
a finger of fudge is just enough to give 
to give myself up!
no.
to win the by-election.
a finger of fudge is just enough 
a finger of fudge is just enough to give me myself a dee dee dee dee!
stiffy!
if, i'll fill my with goodness, nothing now can save her
a finger of fudge is just enough so go and vote for labour!
but don't!
please, now this is a conservative household!
oh alright!
maggie thatcher rules good on her!
down with the poor!
up with the rich!
i agree!
erm
oh he's gonna be busy on that night isn't he?
ah!
i can, am bringing claire a present tomorrow.
about who?
graham.
why?
i dunno.
she wants to see who's interested in po in helicopters.
i think it's which er sixty ki six
komenchi 
ah!
that's a nice helicopter!
where's the list gone?
what?
there was a list.
list of what?
oh it's underneath there.
er it was there it is!
mm mm.
ah !
kate, donna, helen, jenny, georgina, sarah,ji i er,sa is that right?
read them out again, start from the beginning.
is that chloe?
slowly.
oh is that claire and jim?
clare and graham.
start from the beginning, slowly.
it's, looks like chloe actually.
sarah 
no, start from the beginning.
kate.
no!
i'm not gonna well, no.
not kate?
not kate.
donna?
definitely.
helen?
definitely.
jenny?
definitely.
georgina?
definitely.
claire?
definitely.
claire, another one?
definitely 
sarah?
definitely.
rebecca?
maybe.
jessica?
maybe.
sarah wacko-jacko!
sarah wacko?
oh definitely!
oh 
a 
yes!
four inch?
tony.
no !
paul .
no !
andy?
no.
me?
no!
paul ?
no.
?
no.
no.
no!
can't read that one!
danny.
?
no.
she must be joking!
paul and bryant ?
erm, bryant maybe.
no.
i didn't put paul !
couldn't have been him.
so i'm gonna show dad that list this weekend see if he says oh oh oh!
what that?
yes.
he's not gonna know any of them is he?
well he will trust me not to invite rebels!
and you can hardly say 
yeah.
that those are rebels can you?
helen
has he told yo , has he tol , if he doesn't know them he's not gonna know is he?
helen's quiet, jenny's quiet ooh i tell you what, i'm beginning to fall for jenny actually i have to admit.
i'm not.
she kept looking at me today in
god!
now, at lunch.
giving me all sad looks cos she feels sorry for me.
my little helen!
helen!
my little richard!
a failure of natural selection!
ooh!
you wanna perhaps.
so if we can, yeah, well i suppose so.
so i've recorded half an hour of tape already up here.
i got 
can't you spell !
what?
can't you spell !
?
yeah.
.
it's starts with j actually, in case you were wondering!
i thought was a g?
that video was quite fun this morning wasn't it?
ah .
well talk about getting to the climax!
yeah !
but imagine that!
i,th there's no need to show in schools or anything like that!
there wasn't.
i think that just slowed down, i think it was all done in about thirty seconds, they just slowed it down.
no, it was that's 
oh the music was building up, you know
yeah !
it had something for 
yeah, that's it.
everyone didn't it?
had music for me
people bonking for you!
and lots of computer graphics for james.
it was quite funny wasn't it?
yeah i .
it was quite funny, i have to admit.
she was very good looking!
i thought she looked like sarah .
you reck any, anyone who's blonde looks like her isn't it?
well, she yo , she was er do you think i should invite sarah?
if she'll come.
but i , does she know any of those people?
no, not really.
that's the problem.
she, she'll get on with them.
no she's probably teetotal!
and i'm not having melanie !
ah, you're joking!
she's going out with a nineteen year old!
she's gonna even lived with him!
who is?
sarah!
what ?
yeah!
tell 
he's 
me more?
he's he's er, she's goes for the rich guys you see.
i'm not surprised!
mm!
no.
she's got everything!
she's very intelligent, she's very rich, and she's very attractive!
mm, i don't know about very attractive, not bad, ha!
she's damn good!
i wouldn't kick her out of bed on a cold night!
i must admit.
but 
i'd sooner have the duvet to be honest about it!
german in three months, ha!
yeah.
it's not good!
oh what!
done really good!
well you still do it for three years and !
german in three years, like that.
well oh yeah!
acht bitter 
so, well that's what we'll have to do then.
i'll have to have a have to have a word with good old dad and see what he suggests.
basically, say, ah ya!
das is good das fater that's, my father in german.
no!
erm yes.
didn't i just say it.
er er god i'm 
then you say swina 
mine a ah !
re er er er er re , er er er er 
open that cupboard .
what?
cupboard.
who's in there then?
and the other wo , and the other.
mm.
is there a green lined shirt in there?
what colour?
no!
green lined, it's white with green 
oh!
lines.
that one?
yep.
that's the one!
get it out.
what one.
the shirt.
why, what's it got in there?
just get the shirt out!
what's wrong with it?
ge get it out on the hanger that's it!
don't knock it off!
bring it over.
st. michaels, oh yeah!
we 
good!
put it up on the door handle!
we go to marks and spencers do we?
put it on the door handle.
of course, i'm getting twenty five quid from there.
put it on the door handle.
why?
cos i'm gonna use it tomorrow.
good!
put it on the door handle!
that one?
yes!
so just leave it on that, that's it.
good!
now go into the cupboard
right.
and you should find a pair of trousers
oh!
why am i doing all this?
cos i can't be bothered to get up!
ah!
in between the 
i can't be bothered to do it!
red and the green shirts, there's a pair of trousers.
turn them in.
them ones?
that's it!
can you get them out then?
they're kind of a disgusting colour aren't they?
you're not turning up to school in this are you?
that's the one!
it's all hanging out, it's all it's all hanging out.
put that on the door.
good!
have you ever thought about getting out of here, you know, if it's all on the door?
er denim jacket on top of that i think.
i don't think so!
don't think, denim jacket?
well, where you going anyway?
just to rush school.
i'm just wearing the denim jackets as casual jackets to take off when we get there.
why what's happening tomorrow?
we're going to perform our stupid play!
about the sodding rush and i'm gonna die!
i thought they weren't
i know all my lines, my lines is, my name's robert and i like playing cowboys and indians.
i then in front of sam and she's the headmistress and i say, i've been sent to see you by miss huddy, miss trudgenell, because i got caught 
miss trudgenell!
cleani ,co cos i got caught pulling a little girl's pigtails.
she said erm tt don't you know it's ma only my privilege to do that?
and i say, no miss trudgenell, she says er, why did you do it?
i said, because i wanted to , see miss and she says, right!
bend over my table!
she gets the cane out and just as she's about to whip me, er jane walks in.
and she bu , joins in does she?
yeah.
and then er, basically, that's it!
that's my lines.
danny has to go down on the floor, put his hands on hips and go, evening all!
bends his knees, cos he's a policeman !
has to come in like this?
yeah.
evening all!
that's it!
that's right.
sting
and he says 
police , impression of sting, you know!
oh.
oh god!
it's, he is such an awful actor!
even i can't 
i can imagine daniel sort of coming in you know
exactly!
evening all!
he is, he does!
he goes,evening all!
evening all, prowlers !
he either under acts or over acts doesn't he?
not
he does!
evening all!
i'm a policeman !who's innocent?
that's right !
he's he's just terrible!
he's crap!
what, do you reckon i should wear 
i reckon he'd better off with the music to be honest, i mean
what me?
no him
oh oh!
no, he's no good!
shall i wear that one?
shall i wear that lemon one?
what?
which one?
that er, one in between, next to the red one.
that one?
yeah.
oh my god, richard!
looks like ca carly's curtains!
she hangs them round her waist!
she 
or do you reckon i should wear a white casual
well,ha , you're supposed to be a five year old 
yeah.
dressed in that?
yeah.
bloody hell!
exactly!
that's what i said!
have you got the little cap as well?
with shorts on?
i thought i se , i'll be a boy, er donna's.
what a cap?
yeah i know!
i didn't know she was due !
what's the matter with grey trousers?
grey trousers maybe?
black shoes, grey trousers and that?
i don't care!
it's your 
what about black trousers?
play!
put it somewhere.
oh!
a cloak.
or do you reckon that shirt?
oh that's looks alright, leave it.
what that one?
you know the ones you have it tied, sort of half round your neck, you know.
like that.
do you think that, that one maybe?
i dunno.
if you like.
do you reckon she'll prefer it in that colour?
no, i'm taking not bothering.
i mean, nobody's gonna bother to check the colour of your shirt with about twenty other people on stage ?
there's my global hypercolour.
what a !
ooh there again, what do you reckon to these?
i've never worn these?
neither have i.
i've only got one pair of i've only got one pair of 
get into these actually.
yeah, i've got one pair presenting clothes .
bloody hell!
this was half price!
aargh!
jesus!
how much is it?
twenty five quid.
half price?
yeah.
what do 
you reckon?
urgh!
those?
oh!
yeah if you like.
that's a possibility.
do you prefer them to those ones?
not particularly.
right.
those are more casual actually.
and i can wear a white shirt straight laced white.
ha er er !
what's do , by the way, what's donna wearing?
oh!
wow!
you should see it man!
wo ooh, ooh, ooh!
tell you what, i do, but i can't wait that 
you want to.
wow!
erm, a very, very, very, very, very slinky erm black skirt and tights, and a very low top!
i'm talking seriously slinky!
oh i see!
a er
phew!
we're talking seriously tasty!
so 
not me, i sprayed my balls with that stuff.
oh lend you a jacket, moron!
er 
it's over there.
so
it's good stuff this!
thank you very much.
you seen it?
what sort of take it every morning ?
that's right!
yep!
it's good stuff for bad breath actually!
talk about,
just go 
see it kills all the throat hairs!
the throat tissue .
i suppose we should get our german actually shouldn't we?
what german?
german, german.
all that?
yeah.
to put our thing onto tape.
how the hell am i gonna do that?
why?
mean, how the hell you gonna do that ?
yeah, what do have to say anyway?
that thing we did in class.
oh that!
yeah.
ow!
ow!
ow!
right, so just a minute, so let's let's plug up this te te ,ta ta ta ta ta tape.
ivor !
how you gonna do that?
no, use that while i'm doing the entertainment.
that, oh 
so 
what?!
oh well i wouldn't mind being entertained by her!
to be perfectly honest.
ooh that's nice!
ooh!
very nice indeed!
cor!
that's a bit okay!
yes!
this bloke means it!
you got a flinch or something?
what?
you got a flinch or 
what?
keep on doing that!
this one?
i'll in the eye, don't want this waste my expensive deodorant!
this stuff costs a fortune now!
this lynx is expensive as well!
this is one ninety nine a can!
and it doesn't last very long, there's only about two week's worth there!
cos i absolutely spray myself to death!
erm booze, booze!
we gotta limit that.
so you don't want food?
you don't want, you just want sort of crisps and nicknacky things
sausages.
and sausages and hors d'oeuvres 
sausages.
hors d'oeuvres.
salmon and you want salmon on rolls 
salmon 
on biscuits?
sam salmon the bed!
ha!
salmon on the rolls , and
salmon on !
salmon on toast and sort of stuff like that?
toasted salmon.
basically
do you know what?
what?
i feel like humping donna again!
again?
you're not supposed to say that!
you're supposed to say, i didn't know you have?
you haven't.
no, but i felt like it before!
er
i don't mind !
ha ha ha ha !
you just messed that joke right up for me!
shall i, shall i tell you a joke about my car?
no.
my car's got a bidet in it.
yes!
you told me that one!
yes, well that's er, er really not andy!
what about,i i thought that was quite good !
i've got a joke for you.
what do you call a scouse in a five-bedroomed house?
burglar.
what do you call a liverpudlian in a suit?
defendant.
yes!
oh you heard it?
i was waiting for .
you sod!
erm why do essex girls wear knickers?
keep their nipples warm.
why don't , oh it was brilliant !
why do erm what's the difference between a skoda and an essex girl?
you can drive an essex girl more than a hundred yards!
er
oh it's !
the side of shoes are all peeling, look, they're all cracking up.
oh well, i'm not surprised.
you do, sort of, put them under wear and tear.
i walk with them!
oh dear!
i sprayed my hair!
i hold my hair spray !
designer wear hair!
cor!
but did she tell you how she's gonna wear it?
on her head!
no!
good possibility!
no, you've gotta try.
there is rumours decisive rumours that she's gonna wear on it her head!
she looked very nice today in science!
i was watching that film and thinking of her.
i have to tell you.
but when doesn't she look very nice?
oh true!
she
can you imagine, stuart asked her out!
can you imagine that!
he's walked up to her and asked her out!
so?
he was a prat!
so he can be a prat !
i spent six months too priming my time then
it still didn't work !
it still didn't damn well work, too right!
and then asked her out it orgasmo, or what, too!
yes!
she's, well looking at her in p s e d and she looked so cute and adorable!
who?
helen.
oh, jenny's not to bad either!
and georgina's not bad either!
but sarah jane's, wow!
well!
she's just darn right good looking!
yes!
it's huge!
what?
her bum.
who?
sarah 's.
i don't think i've ever looked.
it's a whopping great thing!
just trying to lift it!
yeah.
it's not that big !
you get it is,her bum as well!
oh dear!
so i've basically gotta take one of those suit holders in tomorrow to school for my costume.
cos i'm not gonna go in and get it ruined.
as,lloyd grossman would say it's quite novelty .
tony.
i can't do that !
that's right.
i can't say that.
no you can't say that one without a .
erm damn!
i've forgotten what i was gonna say!
ah, phone!
phone!
oh miss might be communicating to us all.
it's a
phone!
sign!
it's a sign!
aha!
mum's got it.
it'll be for alistare.
fifty p bet it'll be for him!
fifty p bet!
here we go!
she's come upstairs.
has she?
yep!
fifty p bet?
fifty p bet!
oh christ, it's for me!
who is it?
how the fuck is, i do!who it is?
girl or boy?
oh what are talking about!
hello?
hi!
what do you want?
alright, i'll have to.
i've got little andy sitting here!
who is it?
it's .
go away!
yes, you were saying?
let me listen.
we haven't got any.
no, we didn't!
i rang danny and already checked so there isn't basically!
that's crap!
is jim there with you?
or is he at home?
no!
no!
no, no, no!
no, that's crap!
we haven't got any.
no!
none at all.
and andy's still in the bedroom 
we 
getting me undressed!
forget about it nick!
did you hear that ?
did you hear what he said?
oh well, basically well 
mm!
oh it's nothing of interest.
er
shut up!
what ?
do what?
do what?
oh well, nothing of interest.
erm, no yo i've, er i've asked him at the parents' evening what he expected us to do for economics, right?
and yo you're never gonna guess what he wants us to do for our final bit of course work?
we have got to go and stand outside marks and spencers and ask questionnaires and we've gotta do the same in wimbourne.
ridiculous or what!
i think it's crap!
i think it's pathetic!
er here!
er here !
i think it's ridiculous!
we're never gonna get that done are we?
are you gonna go and stand outside marks and spencers and get arrested?
for asking surveys?
oh god!
i think it might be worthwhile actually so the school can come and bail us out!
urgh!
god it's ridiculous!
i mean will be arrested for kerb crawling!
i mean, you can't do that sort of thing, surely!
oh well, i think it's ridiculous!
as you can tell, i said, andy's been drinking i think.
i wouldn't know.
er, blackcurrant yeah, blackcurrant mate, i'm afraid.
so i i was a bit stupid letting him on that sort of thing.
we were this, just discussing the party here that we're having and we've now got twenty five guests you see.
guests?
twenty five!
it should be a great doss up!
donna, georgina, sarah ,er er er
pa oh ah, i'm definitely meant to record that!
georgina, er, helen, jenny, claire , claire , sarah madeline, that lot.
it should be a great doss up!
tell him there's about twenty 
so 
million girls, and two boys !
pardon?
yeah, and you, phil, that lot.
phil's gonna basically, when we've all had as you would know with all the other girls, then erm he basically has to come and sin erm, we repent to him, basically!
yes.
exactly!
that's basically what we , er what's happening.
right!
anything else i can help you with?
oh, rightio!
yes.
please be on ta the professionals 
what?
on are on now.
when's what?
oh i don't know exactly.
as soon as i can arrange a free couple of weeks away, yep.
cos i gotta get booze and food and all that stuff in.
so, andy's gonna hire a video camera to, to film er stuart and phil, and that stuff.
so it should be a good laugh like a good old er, jolly jaunt!
but we'll have to have a look.
right!
i will let you go then.
and i lost the bet by the way, cos i said to da , andy, i bet you fifty p it was for my brother, and it wasn't.
so 
oh i'm rich!
i'm going to kill you tomorrow!
right!
okay?
oh thank you!
oh don't go!
so, i'll basically see you tomorrow.
okay.
see you!
bye!
oh it was !
it was for me!!
well what do you want to talk about?
well there's not a great deal to talk about.
as 
no.
it goes.
but you have to have, er it'll be good if you could find something for her.
well, we'll see er hardly think that i know any active 
well you 
admirals at the moment.
well not active, but you do go down to portsmouth quite regularly don't you?
well yeah, i mean i might i can probably get more advice on the r a f or army than, than the navy.
can you find out for the army for me?
mm mm mm.
and 
mm.
put it forward.
yes, probably.
see what they can recommend.
that is a serious option actually.
oh well, course it is!
i know that.
recruit , there's a 
mhm.
erm there's two guys want to go in the marines in mine anyway and so they're paying erm, a levels of fifteen hundred quid for one of them.
well
he's getting paid fifteen hundred 
yeah.
quid a levels.
yeah, that's a good idea.
and so, if i do that for the army and then get them to do my degree as well.
yes.
so, you get fifteen hundred for going the ar , er, doing a levels, which isn't bad is it?
nope.
have a with that.
so, that's not too bad.
that's right.
and you have 
erm 
are you going to look around the house again tomorrow?
no.
are you going for a buy then?
well, probably will do.
can we go again?
er, if i go then you can go.
yeah.
don't see any reason why not.
we could pop up this saturday.
no, i'm not going while is driving.
oh er sammy.
so, when they gonna sell he his, this week?
hang on!
oh i dunno.
i do i haven't heard anything, i was supposed to ring them and find out.
oh god!
don't really understand why i haven't.
they're playing around!
no.
or they would have got back wouldn't they?
by now.
well possibly.
have you filled in all th , did you hear telephoned back?
the one you were supposed 
sorry?
did you call that number back?
oh, that wasn't anything.
who was it?
it was just er
estate agent, probably.
just an estate agent, yeah.
oh my god!
i thought it was important!
nope.
shouldn't have bothered!
sorry?
said, i shouldn't have bothered.
anyway, i dropped, i rang his office and then erm alistare rang me on the mo i think, i think if alistare rang me they could tell me that er if i did, or i, no i got the message 
no you 
in yo , i got another message in the office, that's right.
no, you got one from mum in the evening.
no, a different, the next day.
oh!
and i thought he came back again.
oh well, it's another part of the office then.
oh my god!
oh!
but er, yes won't be long but er it's ridiculous!
well then, nothing's stopping you putting the damn thing on.
it's not plugged in, there's not enough plug sockets.
but you don't need the, you don't the plug in for the erm
heater.
heater at the moment.
oh!
true.
put it in that one.
is it a big, oh you quite often get messages on there.
yes.
that's right.
oh yeah.
could be important.
madeline's offering 
oh dear!
mum advice about moving.
oh well that's well founded!
she's never moved in in, what is it, thirty years?
no, exactly!
it's our fifth in ten years .
i should imagine that went down well!
yeah!
you could say that.
she rang erm a le , did she tell so , did, mum tell you about the time she had erm some calls about two in the morning?
yeah.
imagine calling maggie at six in the morning!
i mean, glenys at six in the morning.
exactly!
i think they'd got another hour.
sh she's weird!
didn't i oh that cedar table needs re layering.
one general well well i wouldn't worry about it yet, i don't think.
you can't read belgian though can you?
yeah.
oh, didn't know you could.
oh it's better than buying a new one isn't it?
i would hope so.
oh, you're going through those!
do you have to ti , do you tick them off against your cheque book stubs?
no , that's not what i'm doing, i just wanna see which erm which building society sorry, which erm not building society, which erm
bank?
er what do they call them?
stadium?
life assurance, erm 
yes.
loans erm is directed.
haven't you er, you got alistare insured, and you haven't got me insured?
not true.
it is true.
it's not true.
i'm not insured!
nor is alistare.
he is!
mum says he's insured.
not any more.
oh!
brilliant!
so if i pop my clogs nobody get any.
dee doo doo doo .
but erm oh damn!
stay there.
try not to talk too much.
i don't know want you to have too much.
why can't i get rid of this thing for you?
what thing?
save the accountants doing it.
what things?
your cheques on the statements.
mm?
because it's dead easy!
i know it is.
so why don't i do it for you?
say cos the accountants, that's sort of fifty quid you've saved.
he's not doing it.
well he does it doesn't he?
i know.
do you do them?
.
he goes through and puts circles round everything and ticks off.
not at the moment, no.
but we , cos i'll have to do it for you so , something interesting for me to do.
when we get ourselves sorted again.
i love doing that!
great fun!
i used to be able quite regular.
with the p c and b.
oh dear !
my friends are already applying for their summer jobs.
yeah?
yeah.
james has applied to macro.
he'll probably get in as well, little, bloody sod!
but, i'll have to see, yeah i'll have to g pop along to liphook actually, if we do that if you re do go back, well i can pop round the village can't i?
sort of if i go smartly dressed i can see if they've got anything.
well it's an idea.
gotta ring phil actually,wha is it too late now?
dad?
what?
is it too late to ring phil?
it's about my c, will i get my references.
oh don't do it now!
cos it's, i've gotta get th , ask if i can if they need a, explain er 
well don't do it now!
oh well i'll, have to ring him tomorrow, it's very important!
can't forget that.
cos then we sort of, turn out, get a finger out and get a move on!
and so, it doesn't look good if i don't bring the information in so i'd better hurry up with that.
i've also gotta put my german onto tape tomorrow.
oh!
i haven't got a microphone, what a shame, i can't!
mm.
ah dear!
no, i can't do that.
so erm that's german homework i can't do.
dear oh dear!
oh!
oh, oh!
i'm 
well that's probably doing too much work.
oh very funny!
you're being sarcastic i take it?
oh, me ?
me?
what, sarcastic?
no i am aching actually, i don't know why.
ah!
well i don't know when these three, oh yes it is!
not good enough!
who cares!
don't do that!
habit.
erm there's no reason why i can't go out with you on friday is there?
where?
to liphook 
no.
if you're going up that house on friday afternoon.
pop up to london we could already
why am i going friday afternoon?
just saying, just in case you do !
i can leave at the new 
well i'm not going to am i?
new house.
oh i've got my biology tomorrow.
aargh!
dum dum da!
should be doing about 
that is stupid!
ah ah!
aha!
found it?
erm
found it?
i'm not really sure.
well it must say, la la la la
ah, two thousand eight, got it right!
and that says, twenty seven from
you're not gonna stop insuring yourself are you?
no, no, no, no, no!
oh no!
god!
increase the premiums.
twenty seven from the nine two thousand one eight.
i still think it'd be good if my bike went walk about .
be a good way of doing it.
get it practically sawed up and that.
got plenty of friends who would be willing to saw it up.
nineteen, i don't think that's a very good idea at all!
i do!
saying it's broken.
i'll stretch you for it.
oh good!
why?
well, only really because of erm as mature, as policies mature before the er 
what do you mean they mature?
you can collect them?
yeah.
before 
are they pensions?
no, no, no, no!
they're, they're er and er life insurance against the mortgage.
what?
you borrow money
yeah.
and then you use life insurance to pay it off.
oh fabulous!
what?
you mean, in other words, you won't have life insurance left.
so money you've put into life insurance, goes?
well that's what the life insurance is for, to pay the house off.
oh!
put that against the value of the house.
oh, great!
so 
so 
in other words the money from your life insurance will pay the mortgage?
yes.
so we've not got that much hassle then?
no, not yet.
so well then, what you worrying about?
i wasn't worried!
good!
glad to hear it!
now where was i?
what happened to the grand throw out this year?
i wasn't worried at all.
listen though if, we can't keep everything again!
if we go through and chuck out all the grotty stuff.
like what?
well, wardrobes and stuff like that.
cos, we can get rid of these can't we?
sell these?
no!
that, this and that.
no!
but keep th , keep the 
absolutely not!
don't see why not.
some of it's useful, i mean
what and that thing?
what?
that can be chucked.
well, we need it, the amount of stuff at the moment, and get rid of it when we know what we're doing with that thing.
well we're gonna need two removal vans.
well if we have two removal vans, we have two removal vans!
we didn't fit in the last one.
we only just fitted.
the company pays for it, i don't care!
and that was squeezing it.
but if the company pays for it i don't give a damn!
hadn't you better contact pickfords.
well they'll do it, i'm sure one
cos er they might sort of book them up ahead or something.
they'll do it in time.
they're not moving much at the moment.
aren't they?
well obviously not.
oh yeah, true !
the housing market is hardly buoyant is it?
so, in other words, you can push them down a bit.
did you get the er bit they saved on the stamp duty to buy the kitchen?
it's possible.
does that mean yes?
oh good!
mum was so embarrassed!
she didn't know how you got the chee , the nerve to do it!
disgraceful!
if you don't ask, you don't get anything.
don't ask, you don't get!
exactly!
but do you think they'll load the thing on the joints?
or
we'll probably have to split it i would think.
oh excuse me !
but it shouldn't be too much should it?
no.
we eve , we can dig them up and fix them, really, there's real problem getting anybody in.
so why have the three trees gotta come down?
what three trees are they?
well those that are right next to the the ones growing up between the two bedrooms.
ah!
oh that, that one 
the big one.
the big one?
the big one on the back.
yeah.
oh tha , we need that anyway.
tha that one's actually another .
oh brilliant!
then we got one round the corner in the patio area.
oh no!
not that big one?
yeah.
oh!
but it's right up against the house, it's gotta come down.
tt.
i bet next door are gonna get bitchy aren't they?
well possibly.
then we'll erm
why's it gotta come down?
does it have to?
oh th the erm the surveyor reckoned that that house next door
yeah.
was built afterwards as a servant's house.
lovely!
too bad it doesn't come with the property.
yes.
why is it smaller, it's much smaller is it?
oh yeah it's smaller, but it's a nice er 
is this the biggest one in the section?
er, well it's bi , i don't know.
it must be pretty near it.
don't know.
don't really care!
it's got the biggest garden in the area.
i don't know, i don't really care!
not really.
you can see that about five garden size.
well it's not really relevant.
well it's a property!
he said it was a big one didn't they?
mm.
cos it's probably double the size of this one.
er it's,
it's gotta be well it's ri , what do you reckon, four thousand square feet?
no, no!
oh i can't work it out.
i really can't afford
it must be pretty close.
so you don't need all this, surely?
what do you need alistare's report for?
i'll keep the no, i just keep the stuff, that's er got sentimental value.
oh christ!
i'm gonna burn all of mine!
no you're not!
, i keep them it's such a waste!
no you're not!
aha!
aha!
so when are nan and granddad gonna come then?
oh it's alistare's trust fund.
hang on a minute.
well i'm sure what's going in there.
are they gonna come and stay with us, sort of in december
i dunno when they'll 
onwards?
come.
god you can tell that hadn't been open for a while!
oh 
ss 
right!
struth!
this never changes .
it's just a copy anyway.
mm, course.
what's the passport for?
is that an old one?
my to , very first one.
oh god!
who's that?
peace 
an ugly looking son of a bitch!
police, peace like man!
it says .
but this stuff needs brushing out once it's that supposed 
mhm.
to be quite simple to remove.
i'll have to try something different.
i thought it'd be nice if you get, the teachers i get on really well with a bottle of wine or something.
we'll see!
cos there's only a few that i get on really well with.
well we'll see!
it's,now.
probably more than that actually, and er well they are 
and the policy you are.
,no it's about four five probably.
oh what the heck!
oh well, i can't shift 
you almost got those doctors.
what time is it, by the way please?
you got a watch on?
it is nine fifty two.
oh god!
i better check my .
be a bit late.
i would think so.
yeah.
pretty fancy though.
well i suppose we could use them.
mm mm!
so
must still be in there somewhere.
well then mother knows more about these things than we do.
what annoys me is that i know i saw the damn thing not too long ago!
it must be in there then.
god, i'm thirsty again!
i've been thirsty all evening!
yeah, so said it was that spaghetti bolognese that did it.
makes you thirsty.
mm.
well, it's probably
mm.
it's probably that.
maybe it is a flu going around then.
well these all need to be well i mean quite often this stuff we can
throw?
no, no, half of this stuff we can actually keep bi , or or leave, leave for them because it's actually relevant information.
what leave them bills and everything?
no i mean it's
and guarantees?
well it's no damn good to us once we've moved, is it?
ooh god, they've had the house at a cheap rate anyway!
they can damn well pay for these stuff if it breaks down!
that's not the point!
just stop it!
are we taking the cooker with us or not?
not the cooker, no.
so they get i ,we will work pay for all our appliances and stuff?
eh?
will work pay for all our appliances?
not all of them, no.
well a lot of , yeah?
and water softener as well?
all those big salt pebble things i have to fill up every week in the ?
well i guess we may get a we may get ourselves a waste disposable unit.
good!
get one of those we got in, particularly in favour of those.
does she like them?
stick some raw eggs and things down there.
get it chopped up.
it's a great laugh!
mm.
but we want one of those halogen jobs.
what are they called?
hobs.
they are nice!
mhm.
not a bad price either.
what the halogen hobs?
mm.
oh you're joking!
about five hundred.
not bad!
you can't burn stuff on them either, can you?
on the halogen ones, no.
it's a
exactly!
so that's a definite bonus!
well it wasn't, although they'd actually be going around burning ourselves anyway!
i do, you know those frying pans that you bought, the frying pans and saucepans?
an , you know the metal bit that's by the handle that's a really poor safety device!
poor?
on the saucepans there's a metal rim sort of piece at the end of the handle
is there?
that that touches the actual saucepan
yes.
when you pick that up you put your thumb on it!
i 
and i burnt myself so many times on that!
don't pick it up so close to the handle then!
yeah but it's 
well that's the answer 
it's 
isn't it?
why am i 
difficult.
missing missing some subtle point here.
are we leaving the washing machine, by the way?
no!
well that absolutely, we've gotta get a new washing machine!
don't be stupid!
we have, look, this one!
it's only because it's not so not erm stable.
just adjust the feet slightly.
if i had it on a solid floor, but it's gotta go, don't forget it's on a a wooden floor.
oh i suppose so.
what you want is a so so , is a solid floor.
is it?
mhm.
oh right.
well that makes a difference, solid floor.
oh oh!
will you stand it, sort of the garage in your er best job of the afternoon?
won't be too bad.
well this, well i think it's a hotpoint.
well no.
everything you buy is a hotpoint!
no it's not!
there's nothing wrong with buying that.
well l e c are pretty good that's why we buy them!
so, oh!
the tapes nearly run out!
thank god!
only a bit more to go.
ooh it works!
i bet i will get nice and fluffed out so that it 
i will keeping talking to this stupid machine!
oh god!
but still oh er
why?
they'll probably contact and they'll check every single doctor.
why is that?
then i'll i think it's disgraceful!
we'll have to get the guy out from sticks and stones to do our fireplaces.
is it a real fire there, by the way?
well it's and in the bedroom.
there's on in the bedrooms?
well, one of the bedrooms has got a fire.
now, let me guess, you're having that one?
i dunno.
they,na , nan and granddad may have that as a sitting room to start with.
oh!
so we we have proper logs?
over there?
it's possible.
brilliant!
roasting chestnuts!
my god!
cooking crumpets!
yeah, yeah 
marshmallows!
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!
cor, it's ages since we've done that!
used to do it down there and we used to get stones that blew up and poinged everywhere!
aha.
ah, i love that!
yeah!
brilliant!
so we'll have to have that cleaned as soon as we get there.
get a chimney sweep in.
i think we'll have lots of things to do richard.
i suppose i could clean it really.
i don't think so.
don't see why not.
cos it's a
might be a big fire.
is it a big fire?
is it?
you've seen it.
i can't remember.
which room is it in?
well there's a fire in the main room.
oh, and that's the ballroom, i think it's called dad, the ballroom.
i don't think so!
it's called the ballroom!
oh well that's what, yeah, they call it, i think it's hardly that.
well it's big!
i know that, yeah.
big house!
well the house gotta .
it's gotta be there somewhere so just let's and find it.
right!
i'll look in my ro so that sort of thing she can look at in the morning.
oh god, i'm starving !
oh!
i thank god that .
oh i'll take twiglets into school tomorrow.
mhm.
make a change.
get .
twiglets and er and the pasty.
you have to get the done as well.
yes.
put, put that on the shelf though.
exactly!
mm.
i don't think you'll ever get tha that to be done now.
yes i will.
not with the rigging, the rigging's had it!
well then, do, redo the rigging, that's not a problem.
no, it's a bit difficult.
just a matter of
it's a shame, it's a beautiful ship!
just a matter of finding the time!
did you buy it from ?
oh yeah.
how much did it cost?
oh , can't remember now.
probably about sixty three isn't it?
oh easily!
easily!
shame!
lovely 
a shame , yup!
cos it's the solid ones .
yep!
yes.
you'd have to repaint and stuff as well.
yeah, i know 
find the 
i've got 
on some 
so much to do!
on some .
so much to do and so little time!
we went to parkside reproductions your desk the maho , mahogany one.
oh god!
just can't be bothered about that yet richard!
no you said for the new office.
yes, i know .
oh dear!
let's go and watch the news.
alright.
ah!
i saw what's his name today by the way.
. and clobbered me again!
wanted to know if you'd said anything.
mum?
i said anything?
i mean, if i said anything to you.
about what?
me me me mention yo , something in the newsletter.
wa wondered if you were gonna do anything.
so, i said no, i'd mentioned it to you and talked about it.
i think he must think we're complete idiots or something!
i've got a temperature, by the way.
mum?
are you going to sit there and read the paper, or do nothing?
i'm reading the paper!
i wanted my cup of tea and i'm tired!
well you gonna, oh i've gotta bring a cup of tea in for you, have i now?
yeah.
oh right!
i'll get up and get the damn thing shall i?
do you want me to do anything else while i'm up up and about?
there we go!
anything else you'd like while i'm up?
scratch your back, or get the paper, or the get the post in, or take the dog for a walk or then, shall i?
richard, on the odd occasion you something for me richard i ought to be a lot for you!
altogether 
i said , i can do tea.
well i'm not doing tea, alistare can do it, he's been home all day!
alistare does something 
he's been home all day.
no!
he did
yes, he's been home all day i'm not doing it tonight!
i've got things to do.
fabulous!
he'll 
yeah.
i'll do it!
yeah!
don't see why you can't do it.
don't ask me to take that in again tomorrow, cos i can't!
if i'm supposed to be doing it.
can you take it in tomorrow mum?
i better take it back tomorrow hadn't i?
mum?
i would have, you said she's calling here to pick it up er, isn't she?
yes.
four thirty.
and you won't be home before four thirty will you?
how are you?
alright.
doing a gig aren't you?
down at the r a f club, yeah.
yes, it was in a bloody scrap yard and this jack come to me we had he had mentioned it before but he said we said we're not bothered, you know, he won't er that was in there.
where the bloody hell have you been he said !
i've been cos i haven't been to the r a f club for ages there.
no.
no.
and he said, are you still doing that one on the twentieth of march?
i thought buzz buzz buzz!
i said,oh i'll let you know tomorrow jack .
so i got hold of dave and i said ring stuart and ring
i didn't know, it was david just, sort of, saying that, it's something your going to do.
ring re the
it was
the drummer 
it was 
and ask, do they wanna do it like?
yeah.
they both, i rang dave back on the sunday and he said they both wanna do it so took it!
it's money innit?
did you get your car?
yes, i got it, yeah, yeah.
what day?
the thirteenth or the fourteenth?
oh i got it on the bloody saturday didn't i !
got it on the saturday.
you're alright then.
well, six fifty i got if for like, i try give him a six hundred and he ummed and ahhed and then he said well he said well i'll take the six hundred he said, can you manage the hundred quid over the next five or six weeks?
i said, well i can't to be honest with you, i said i've gotta pay back what i bloody 
yeah.
borrowed like!
yeah.
i said, i'll tell you what, i said er cos my mum lent me seven hundred 
yeah.
down.
yeah.
i said i'll give you six fifty, so i'll have to try and scrounge the other fifty quid to tax the bloody thing!
yeah.
he said i don't know what the car owes me he said can you come back tomorrow about half past ten?
i said yes alright then, which was the saturday like.
so i left it till about twenty past eleven didn't i?
i thought oh i'll keep him on
tenterhooks,ey 
so i got, he said er where you been he said?
i thought you'd changed your mind!
he said it's alright i'll do the
oh.
i said, oh thank you very much.
but they put the tax up in the budget didn't they?
on the car tax!
yeah.
so i went to tax it with the fifty five quid as i thought!
i had to pay the new increase!
yeah?
yeah.
sixty pound fifty it cost me for six months!
oh why, it's more isn't it for
yes, i know it's more it was always more before.
yeah, it was fifty five wasn't it before, half year?
yeah.
yes.
yeah.
yeah.
and what is it now?
and what is this ?
sixty pound fifty.
sixty pound, is the 
oh!
like i, i've taxed this 
from the first of march like.
yeah.
yeah.
yes, if they'd have done it from, say, the first of april fair comment like, i wouldn't of said 
yeah.
you know, wouldn't 
yeah.
of said nothing, oh well it's gone up, it's gone up like!
yeah.
i know.
but i paid for the first of march so i've lost li literally fourteen days haven't 
yes.
i?
yes.
but i still had to pay the new increase like!
mm.
from the first of 
well it's 
march like!
same as me.
i only tax mine for six month now then,ay?
yeah well it
but er they what's er name, it'd cost me fifty five quid end of this month!
yeah.
know what i mean?
but i've got this ea , other ten quid going on it!
well,fo , fortunately 
yeah well, it was right it was cheaper to do it for twelve months anyway.
oh yeah that's right, it was cheaper.
it was er what was it, hundred quid weren't it?
yeah.
and it was hundred and ten if you did it over the two six 
two 
months like.
yeah, that's it.
oh yes, yeah.
yeah.
yeah.
so you
choose six months 
you know?
like, yeah.
yes.
and it's gone up again !
yes, it's gone up again yeah.
.
oh never mind!
you've got your wheels haven't you?
ooh christ, yes!
you got your wheels!
didn't recognise you!
oh god tha , they always leave that for me start off!
stick him underneath!
yeah !
oh !
you like that, do you ?
it's alright.
i've seen in real life,!
yeah.
how's your mum?
alright, she's ah, been this morning and er they took the sling off now, she's getting onto use it again.
is she better when she stands up now?
she used to
oh yes!
what is was, she gets with kimmy barking she gets 
yeah.
herself
worked up on it.
she's frightened of, sort of, opening the door thinking that the dog might get at her 
get her.
i mean, if she'd have just shouted!
i said well the dog knows mike, and 
yeah.
and mike's used to the dog, she wouldn't bother.
oh no!
but she just gets up a bit quick.
quick, yes.
so, yes she's alright now.
but if 
good!
if erm, you knock you know, you know my mum's still here 
yes.
so if i'm going out, i'll leave the money under here anyway.
okay love?
alright chuck!
so tim won't have you!
i'll ignore him!
see you friday anyway!
tara chuck!
tara now!
oh yes, how is she?
she's alright.
she said, oh!
i said how you feeling?
she said, i'd like to see a .
he said after she'd .
yes, it's a shame!
she's got two she's got daughters and 
can you post that for me please?
yes.
and she but er i think one lives in hull.
near hull,cos i said , i said where are you going?
oh she said,i don't she said !
we'll have to see.
she's had her teeth .
i think that house of joe 's is up for sale isn't it?
it's all which house did he, cos there's two there isn't there, gordon?
you know joe, who i mean?
oh,fo him, down the ponderosa down the ponderosa ?
joe, who you used to go and see.
oh!
joe and 
yeah.
yes!
was it the one that side or this side?
the the bungalow this side.
you're going down the road 
yes.
there's two bungalows, or three bungalows isn't there?
two.
two?
it's that one there.
not the first one 
no!
you see.
i'm this way!
you're on the main road now
yes.
and they're on that side.
that's it!
yeah, that's it!
now which bungalow is it?
it's that one.
well it's, it's all empty!
is it?
yeah.
oh course, she died didn't she?
yeah.
yeah.
i, i had 
but i thought she had a son living with her?
i think there was two sons weren't there?
and one son 
well i'm sure if you ever 
yeah.
you go past 
yeah.
down there, you have a look.
yes 
one of 
well i 
them's like 
i like 
as though it's all been emptied and, and erm i don't know!
yes!
well i imagine 
right.
that it would go up for 
yeah.
sale wouldn't it, between them?
mm.
yes!
the family like .
i only only saw it cos it, it's 
no that 
on a bad corner there and i don't like, i don't take 
no!
my eyes off the road.
when did i,?
oh!
i was gonna get this when it's chilly.
what, when they've all passed there?
that's right!
and i go back door here.
yeah.
yeah.
at like, like you're it's, you come into a bend and you've got to watch it and i er just had a quick glance at it like, isn't it, you know?
it's the second one.
yeah.
and it looks as though it was all whitewashed and .
yes, and this new caravan one?
tie them 
yeah.
at the front like,
but it looks , you know?
as though 
yeah.
it's been all what's er named.
done , yes.
and i thought, well i , like, i know she's got married but i don't know 
yeah.
about the others.
yes.
i think one of them's separated.
aha.
and he came back home.
oh yeah.
but as for the others, i don't know.
well last last year she came to the erm the social, we have it in november, a big social event er you know?
well they all haven't got a soft mum and dad like you.
mum?
seven and eighth on there.
oh i'll, i'll tape it to myself.
eh?
what?
still have her on it.
a minute for that please.
he's not very good at making gravy is he?
no.
what are you waiting for kimmy?
she's waiting to follow me upstairs.
you're not going upstairs.
you want a coat on outside.
i've still got the runs by the way.
i've still got the runs by the way.
i might not be here next week.
i've got to go and see the doctors i think.
do you want to take a are you still taking malaria?
yeah.
no, it was erm
aye.
well when you've finished taking them, three pound odd a packet they are.
i don't care.
there's a bug going round, so i hear.
why didn't he take that with him and put it in for a minute, for god's sake.
pardon?
pardon mother?
mm mm 
did you drain the water off them?
lovely sprouts.
didn't put any in actually cos er in when they er freeze.
here, put this over the top.
or your potatoes will go dry.
thank you mother.
does he want a smack in the mouth?
what do you want kim?
i'm trying to use that one and then you can put your fresh one in.
you'd better do it.
hasn't it been a lovely day?
very windy out.
very windy out isn't it?
your nan's missing some chocolate eclairs.
missing some chocolate eclairs?
oh dear, i wonder where they've gone.
hang on i'll have a look in the safe.
hark do i do i hear the pools man coming round?
mm nice.
not steak again.
steak seven times a week, well.
you're gonna mess with that and it'll be crackling all over did you know?
and has me mum been?
no.
well where was she this morning when i was phoning?
where was she this morning when i was phoning up?
eh?
alison.
alison .
god, the whole house smells of sprouts now.
and steak.
alison.
you've gotta write down who speaks on it.
have you?
oh this damn thing!
every time i come in this sink it's full of pots.
isn't it awful.
my god isn't it terrible.
and i'm sick of having steak every night mother.
you're dreaming again 
can't we have porridge for a change?
who's she on the phone to now?
she's not on the phone, she's talking to me mum.
drag it off his knee kim.
you can have the gravy.
and that's all you're getting.
is there onions in that gravy?
no.
we did have some but it went.
alison must have i don't know why alison puts water in these cos you don't need it.
cos there's water in the frost.
hang on kim.
chucked a big piece of salmon away, herbert didn't want it.
oh!
well i didn't know whether you wanted it or not!
i did two steaks and he only wanted one.
well i don't know whether you like salmon or not.
do you?
mm.
the food your daughter gives me anything'll do .
all i've had today was a pastie, i thought i'd fast a bit.
this fasting makes you hungry.
doesn't it kim?
damn again.
take something for it.
here you are mate.
very nice that, very nice.
eh?
me stomach starts to churn.
everything i eat my stomach starts churning.
why does it record on that way and yet it's running that way?
because you're probably doubling doubling up on the recording.
what do you mean?
will you stop it!
are you ready my little 
does this look a mess?
swamp duck.
yes.
no.
does it look a mess?
no it doesn't.
it's all creased innit?
well it was er you washed it.
i didn't.
well does it or doesn't it?
no it's okay.
good.
i'll just go and get the volvo out.
aren't we going in the rolls?
no, forget that.
who's acting the ?
that's what they damn want isn't it?
does it want some new batteries in?
it's flickering.
yeah.
alright evening mother, evening father, how are we?
you alright?
ready to go?
go and see sally visiting picture looks nice
eh?
the picture looks nice
eh?
where are you gonna put the gold?
it stinks of er
eh?
it stinks in here, what you've been varnishing?
where just walking at the moment at cottage hospital now.
evening i'm the good looking one
hello
how are you?
yeah, hi you
i heard your mother's voice
hello love 
hello, how are you?
i 
how you keeping?
oh, i'm not too bad love, cos how are you
alright thanks
oh
you're looking well, have you been ill?
eh?
you're looking well, have you been ill?
who's is this here?
no you're alright, don't worry, it's alright there, don't worry do you want it moving?
want it
put it down over here 
yeah i put it, i'll put it there and if you want, if you want it back
put it on for us
i'll bring it back for yeah, or i might not
these chairs are a bit heavy aren't they?
yes they are a bit 
eh?
they are
how are you ladies alright?
it's alright don't worry
don't worry, don't worry, you're alright
oh they all fight round here
well you're looking well
oh i look well i
yeah
i
well you pair have been fighting and all have you?
eh?
you pair have been fighting as well have you?
no i've only just come in
have you?
oh right
well she knows that she can't get
three bracelets eh?
brilliant, yeah.
i didn't go back to
it's very pleasant here isn't it?
yes and
ah
i don't know what it'll be like
, just looking for the grapes
i
no you're alright, don't worry, i could do with a week off work
did you call to
yeah, call going up, then there was a letter
and then er
went back up and just
books, rubbish
and then she had a party
i'm afraid to put one in the kitchen
i, that's right, with a
do you know it was
this morning
oh i, a few weeks 
a few days 
they close it down and then it was
that's right yeah
and then the doors are closing
i, that's right
brenda's got something like that in
yes
she was worried about the television
no it won't get better
no
still got a bit of fire in them
well now and again like
i that's what i mean
yeah
it's not like they're gonna be
no
like old times
in the morning
that's right, i
probably economise
you'd be no good working for
standing there waiting for
you'd be out
as a fact your hair at the back, don't tell anybody you're a hairdresser for god's sake.
pardon?
where's kim?
over at dave's, dave's at er, we're talking about the er,
there, talking about the greengage and er, says oh to jackie, he said, oh yes stuart's the m c for tonight, m c, m c, what do i want m c for?
i said well it gives them a bit of panache don't it?
well, oh probably, here we go, got one on
ain't take
no
by the time you get up the road and get back why people really
along here i don't know 
i don't know , i don't know
you don't have
i won't take this, i'll leave it here
yeah
well you're using my
well, in the left drawer on top of the fridge, lying beneath the fridge
yes i know
ta ra love, see you later, take care now
she didn't say what, she's, she's had a bit of a set back since then, she's had gall bladder trouble you know
oh yes 
she's got over it quite well
she looks well doesn't she?
yeah, yeah
though she eats well though you know, oh does she, eats all her meat
ah well
among others, you know we, me, me sister lives at home well, i've got another younger sister well we have er, you know, from, from
that's right, yeah
but my mother's no trouble is she, eh?
no trouble 
no, no 
at all 
and she's always busy either knitting 
oh she's 
or she's doing a embroidery or doing something
alright 
and she said , because don't like the idle hand
idle hand
if she's not doing that she's winding wool ready, she does
i don't know whether you've ever seen
oh yes
but i went to lake
in, in cumbria, and i bought, but i saw, the first time i've ever seen it, it was like a
wood and it had made, and it had got the four nails at the top
yeah
and she uses that you know and she makes rugs and
they're, they're wonderful those and then she stitches them all together
yeah, yeah 
i made
in september
yeah, i made in the west chest , cheshire a
she was making a quilt wasn't she?
oh i
a back, a back rest
made a big pile like, patch like that you know
yeah
and another big one, ooh it was lovely
she'd been in a car accident, she was there, er broken pelvis
oh dear
no, she was 
oh i, i
send me one, she made herself
yeah
i, yes, oh
she said would you like to me to get you
are we going now?
chucking out time
chucking out time
and that, i said i couldn't sit down and do that i said, i
ooh she won't be in here that long
no,
you'll be, you'll be at home before the
on your feet
i don't think i'll be that long
no
no
it just depends when it stops weeping you see
oh
my doctor said
oh you know,
well i'm, i'm quite happy, never going out, never see the outside world except i go in the ambulance
yeah, oh yeah you're happy
oh very happy
very good
i don't worry about er, you know, what's going on outside
no, no
no, don't
it's terrible
going out of business
they haven't got the money have they?
are you here for good?
here for good in here 
no, no
i've got to get out as soon as i get, i've, i've promised at night i'd have, i'll, i'll have someone for a night, i've got to have someone at night as well as the day
that's right, yes
i didn't want to, but
no, well if you get someone trustworthy
well i, i, i, i've see mrs i've had her for so many, many years
oh well
but you see, i thought, i've got to get somebody strange now, for, for, for night time
oh
it won't be the same, i, i'm sure i can manage on me own, well i'm sure i can, but they say i can't, i've a another fall plus a
yeah
it wouldn't matter would it?
i don't know i can't sleep
well i don't know
if you've had a good innings.
well i don't know
your here as long as he'll let you stay
well that's right we can't go before our time
no i know.
you can't jump the gun
no you can't.
who won with the football last night liverpool or?
no, italy ten all weren't it?
yeah tonight 
tonight 
oh
do you know her?
no i'll ask her 
oh yeah
i didn't spill that one at all
no
now where you going now?
what times getting on now
ten past eight
trying
trying to get rid of us 
yeah, i 
warm in here though, isn't it?
is it warm?
yeah
are you warm?
that's right
are you warm enough?
i'm warm enough, yeah
right
patience
that's it i think
when are you going to do the bucket work sally?
there's all that bucket work waiting to be done, eh, the bucket work
i, huh,
bucket work, leave that
there now, getting the tray from the bottom, oh yes you need
shoving it up, oh.
oh never mind you'll be in a bungalow soon
oh yes
you'll be in your bungalow soon
how soon now?
how soon?
oh it depends when she's going to have the builders in
oh
she wouldn't leave by there
no 
no 
well she don't want to leave, i think it's a silly thing to leave it
mm
you miss all your friends and everything you know.
elsie had these lights
oh yeah
that's what we're gonna have
he said we see, i we're gonna have them 
we see , we see, have them
you can't take your money with you.
you can't
but it's something, something in you, you have to rush don't they?
why won't they wait?
why should they?
why should they?
no, why should they?
i have 
take the rest of it 
pleasure spending
no why, they've got lives of their own
well
let them live it, don't want saving for the children, no, they don't want nothing
well
they've had far more than what we've ever had
yes, you're right there, yes
mind you i'd like to be like that
yes, yes
eh, but have nothing in this farming today is it?
mm?
nothing in this farming today though
no, no 
with these lads 
no 
oh yes
they stand
for little money
yeah, that's right
you know
oh it is, aye.
used to go round with the milk you know
yes i know
i remember him going, going off with the milk
yeah
yeah
oh i
lady of leisure
i wouldn't exactly say a lady of leisure 
she looks very well 
i get up and i'm, in fact i lit a fire and his breakfast is ready when he comes in
it is as well
i eat quarter to eight
what time?
i get up about seven
i get up at
five i have to get up
i used to get up
it a be a good
now though, wouldn't it?
there's a lot of houses there now though 
i have to take care you know, i have to take tablets with me everywhere i go.
i keep very well really, i do quite a bit of walking, you know?
yes
and quite a lot of writing too
but i don't
and it's not on a bike either
no, no, he's just bought me a car now
what you got?
well i had a fiesta, i've got a volvo
they do, don't they?
yeah
alright squire?
alright squire
eh?
no i don't know that lady over there 
good evening derek
good evening sir, like a pint?
oh i wouldn't mind sir, thanks a lot, that's awfully kind of you.
would you like a pint of
er, go on then if
seventy shillings, oh that'll do.
no it won't
think about it 
yeah, i know i did.
well it's not bad for seventy shillings see that
go on, come on,
it's one pound
two pound, i beg your pardon
see that's why, it's his wife
oh have you,
not that i know of, no
what?
eh?
er one pound twenty
bloody hell
i just get it settled then i'll give you the benefit of the doubt
i've been trying that for me stomach since i've came back
so you're saying
sorry
no, i've had er,
i had to go to the doctors, carrying on, outside everything
it's only there pal
i miss
you drop off when you're in
it might rain tomorrow don't it?
i said it looks like rain tomorrow
not bad
you got fluoride in this, in this to clean you teeth?
i,
i think it's worse
i would have thought the three, the first three, the first would of been three, right, but still, you know we want
ironed out the creases
oh yes, right
when, when you were next in, being a regular
you're, say, a nominal
what is it exactly then?
what's this one then?
that's eight
stronger, can do a
i'm not into strong ale
well it's not strong, strong
yeah, yeah
i find strong ale very heavy
yeah
ah, what, i, is that you?
i mean it's all
don't mind what you're drinking then
no that'll do me
i didn't have anything last saturday
you know what i mean?
i er
i bet you're all wondering what that is in the
erm, i'm just not getting it
unknown territory, you know what it's like with a van, don't you, and then
yeah
gotta get done
yeah
i'm arguing with them, when i'm
i give it a break for a couple of, well about three sundays now
tell her i'm sorry, tell her i need my babe i'm a tell her, we've, we've
i mean, a couple of them i like
i remember a go, a go with some of them that i thought i could do, but realised i can't do, do you know what i mean?
i, i, i was, about, what i, i do, i bought an elvis presley one er a tom jones one, that drinks one, you know, that i like, it's, it's
well i like singing it, what i mean, i think what it is i'm looking for the old, i'm not being funny, i'm looking for the old voice
i don't like me voice, i'm not liking it at all and i think that's what putting me off on taping it and listening to myself after, i don't, i like, i like to
i shouldn't do it, i'm not gonna do it any more, i'm not gonna tape me own voice and listen to it i just
not listening to me own voice 
left a good job in the city, working for a man 
yeah, quite smooth actually
yeah, yeah, i thought that
hiya, yeah
yeah, some of them i like, some of them i don't like, er
nice number that, er nice number, you see like that song, like you've choose
well i can tell you that
it's actually this one, it's not a
and it is a good one
well the phrase at the end, i'm just about get , but,
yeah
get the phrase in the end, it's, what we've done is, at the end they go, they do a
rolling, rolling down the river, rolling, rolling, down the river, rolling, rolling down the river 
and they, no, and they dropped rolling, rolling see what i mean?
oh yeah
one, two and when you think, you think
you want another one?
ooh i've got one another, it goes rolling on the river right
yeah
yeah
no
what i found very different, wrong with this
i mean you're like me, you want profession, you don't just come out and throw it, like that, you see
oh we used to do one with erm the band, sometimes i'd get it right, others i wouldn't, but like you've just said they come
come up after and say, ah, that bit late for
i, but you did it for
yeah, yeah, like i come down the other week and i
yeah
i'm getting it, i'm getting over it very, very, very slowly 
here are, give us it back
i'm not being rude now, i've just come back from the gambia and i haven't stopped
what you've just said now, and i'm gonna go now
i don't know what the hell it is
oh well, i'll have to be careful, i don't know what er, what's, what happened
i said, i said to them, oh i hope he don't think i'm
but i said because you bring some guy, you'll lend me the room on a sunday afternoons, up and down
you know, put the whistle on, and then bring them up and that'll be me
yeah, i
i like do the tom and, i won't, tom and jerry, i might do the tom jones one, cos i, i feel comfortable at
which i don't
you don't have to be beautiful 
awfully sorry love, have to er dash off a bit
erm john
and jonathan sit down but when i
i want you to read your essay about your home.
simon i want you to read about your home as well 
and as martin is still giving out
i think i'll have you christopher please to read yours about monster, so i'll have the two monster ones first and then the two home ones.
right, just sit down for a minute and let's, michael read his first.
the monster from the marsh.
i saw the monster arrive from the marsh he looked at the when i saw him i ran 
the monster from the marsh.
when i was walking past the marsh one, one night, when i was on my way back from school i heard a rus rustling noise behind a bu bush, when i went up the, went up first to the bush a big dragon-like thing jumped out from behind the bush, it gave me such a fright i nearly fainted.
i started to run up, straight up the hill, erm lucky the monster was running straight at me and sticking out of the crowd and he tripped over and after the end 
my home.
my home is near the trees and i live there in, in my house there is
i have lots of places in my
and i have one one pigeon and a dog.
my home is made of wood,
and the roof is made of tin and the colour of it is grey.
it has two doors, one, four windows, i, i don't have the garden or, oh, in my house there are six rooms and one of them is er, one, one of them is my, is my room and a picture and a
my my, and
room and er 
my home.
i live in a tree so does my mum tree house, my mum and my dad and my brother and my dog and dad live there.
our house is made of wood and is dark green.
we have four windows and four doors, we have got a there is a big hill in front of it and it is good, but if it, if the tree house because we find the, the trees and then and then we were, we play in the tree house sometimes with the dog.
inside our home we have a lot of furniture, we have four rooms, one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and one in the lounge and one in the kitchen 
right then.
i like erm, christopher and simon
yes i know, take your books and show
right, erm, jonathan here
right john has written a story about his home right it's a good descriptive story on how people live
until one day they couldn't think of any way that you could may improve it.
my home.
i live in a tree house, my mum and my dad and my brother and my dog and my sister.
our house is made of wood and is dark green, we have a four windows and four doors.
it has got wooden roof.
there is a big hill in front of it and it is good but erm because we climb the, the tree and climb it and we play in the tree house today with the dog.
inside our home we have a lot of furniture we have four rooms and one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and one in and one in the lounge and one in the kitchen here 
okay, right
so if we cut out the one
they might
it might flow a bit more easily might it.
that's good, it was alright apart from that you describe where john and
are living well
yeah, i didn't see which sort of 
no, did he describe the house though?
yeah
yeah, i think his description of where he was living in the tree house was very clear
i think he could improve it just a bit jonathan
and then it might flow a bit more evenly, might it then, right michael bring yours out now please.
just a minute john, right michael i want you to read yours through once more for me please.
do it about the monster 
monster from the marsh.
when i saw the monster from the marsh, one night, i was, i was, i was frightened, i, i, i, i was he looked liked a when i saw him i ran back to camp and i felt frightened, i hid under my sleeping bag the end 
right, see michael was describing that how he felt
yeah
how did feel then?
frightened
you think that he came out quite
what christine has said then do you think?
well you said he went under a sleeping bag
aha
and just, i hid under my sleeping bag, er, then, i thought er the mon what would happen to the monster and so he might of stayed there on, you know, all, all night
john
well he did say that the monster was rather large, he looked like a bird
with some feathers plucked out
what else could you bring in his bag?
anything else he could of put in the hat liam?
he vaguely saw the monster and then he ran back to the camp where he was camping, but he didn't describe 
where, where 
yeah, where 
so he could of put a little bit in about how he ran back
yeah
and what he went through in, in
that couldn't he?
yeah
right, the people who have not read an essay out yet, i want you to sit, just a minute michael, next to somebody and i want you to read your essay to them and see what they think about it and how you could maybe improve it and i want michael and john to go and show steve your books as well now please, right boys do that now then, yes, could you take yours to show
please
do we have to show both?
not sure it's still working.
it's still working
the thingy
is it recording us?
is it recording?
yeah
my dad's got all this
sorry steve, erm,
that you're not going to read your essay and
and that isn't
essay, either work your book or, and get it
er, yes, well it has to be up
and when you've finished it you can then do a picture about your
right erm, can i start by asking you, can you tell me your full name please?
mary .
and can you tell me your date of birth.
say that.
h where were you born?
in llaneilian.
and erm who were your father and mother.
oh my my er my father came from horley, suffolk.
mm.
and mother was bo was born in llaneilian too.
yes.
and er father came as a sexton from from horley with a parson you see.
and so 
yes.
mother was a er a the cook in the rectory so they got together you see, that's how they got .
oh i see.
why was it your father came came to llaneilian?
from suffolk.
oh he my father came from horley, suffolk.
why why did he make the move?
oh well he came to llaneilian to to be a sexton of the church .
oh i see.
yes.
yes.
erm was his father in the church as well?
oh no i don't know where father i don't know where his father was no .
no.
do you know much about your mother's parents?
oh my mother my mother was brought up with her grandmother in llaneilian.
oh i see.
yes.
yes.
my father came from horley, suffolk with a parson you see.
to llaneilian to got to get it they got they got together and they got married and they had ten children.
i in in in in the same place.
mother was brought up with her grandmother.
i see.
yes.
why was that, was that were her parents di had her parents died?
oh no.
no.
no.
no.
she was just brought up with her grandparents.
yes.
yes.
i see.
erm, whereabouts in llaneilian did you live when you were young?
oh i lived with i was born in llaneilian.
yes, whereabouts?
oh er er .
mm.
yes.
oh i see.
yes.
and did your father remain er working in the church?
yes.
mother was a cook at the rectory
yes.
and my father was the sexton of the church.
oh yeah.
and my three brothers went after my br my father to be a sexton of a of a church.
oh.
grave-diggers and all that you know.
yes.
yes .
oh i see.
yes.
erm do you remember much about your father?
oh yes i remember 
yes.
father yes.
do you remember him working?
oh yes, he was a d gra the grave-digger.
yes.
mm.
of a church.
i see.
and er i he used he used he u used to take lunch he wouldn't he wouldn't take tea dinner he used to have like to have tea in a bottle.
oh did he.
and er 
cold?
cold tea?
no warm.
warm tea.
yes.
mm.
and er he er he used i used mother used to send me with the tea to the to the church to the churchyard to father.
oh i see.
and i put father all the time and i couldn't find him.
there he was in the bottom of a grave.
oh yes.
did you yourself go to school in llaneilian?
oh yes.
yes.
was it a little school there.
oh oh yes, a little school there yes.
mm.
do you remember your schooldays?
oh yes.
yes.
what was it like?
oh it was alright.
yes?
and how old were you when you left school?
oh i was i was very young.
i was left school very young.
i was left school about er eleven years old i was.
did you?
yeah.
did most people leave that young?
oh
in those days?
pardon?
did most people leave school at that age?
oh yes.
mostly yes.
in those days you could you know .
mm.
yes yes i see.
yeah.
wh what erm what was your first language when you were a child?
oh welsh.
welsh you spoke?
yes,
did your father learn welsh as well?
oh yes, father learnt welsh.
although 
i see.
he came from horley, suffolk, he learnt welsh alright.
yes.
yes.
i see.
and 
so you only spoke welsh at home?
did you?
oh yes yes.
yes.
just welsh.
erm was llaneilian a small place in those days?
oh yes very small but it's got very big now you know.
yes.
mm.
it's it's f it's full of erm full or campers.
you know campers .
mhm.
campers.
with the with the with the campers coming like you know.
yes.
erm can you tell me some more about your father's job and what he did in his time .
oh well father came from horley, suffolk and he he went as a grave-digger
mm.
to the old llaneilian church.
yes.
and er w he used to work between er you know, do do do odd jobs,
mm.
between like ten
yes.
and er he he used to ring the bell and he used to clean he had to clean the church and all the rest of it you know.
yes .
oh yes.
yes.
was a lot of hard work he did?
pardon?
did he work very hard?
oh yes.
mm.
grave-digging grave-digging was very hard in those days .
yes.
yeah.
would he be the only person digging the graves?
pardon?
would he be the only one doing that job?
oh yes.
so he'd have to dig the grave by himself .
yes.
yes.
that's a lot of work.
yes.
erm what was were his wages very low?
pardon?
did he only get a small amount of money?
oh yes very small, yes.
did your did you have trouble living on the amount of money he earned ?
oh yes, mother mother had to work hard
mm.
you see she used to erm she used to take er six dressed chickens to the mansion place in lla in er .
to an old lady.
and er she had to pluck them and everything, clean them ready to put in the oven you know.
mm.
i remember.
and we had to run to take these chickens 
oh i see.
why was that?
where would where would the chickens come from?
oh mother used to go and from different farms you know.
oh i see.
and she used to clean them kill them and clean them and 
mm.
to be put in the oven.
so would that be to add a little bit more money?
oh yes yes yes .
i see.
erm what kind of food would you eat?
in those days?
oh th we used to have a i don't know whether you used to eat it we used to have a erm er turnips and p and er and er made a have a basin full of buttermilk and and potatoes mixed together you know.
oh yes.
they were very good you know.
yes.
yes.
would you have that often?
oh yes.
mhm.
we used to we used to we used to erm have a lot a big lot of buttermilk.
mm.
we had three cows.
and mother used to 
you had three cows?
milk them and make erm make the buttermilk and we used to have buttermilk and potatoes in a basin mixed up and 
oh i see.
pepper and salt in them.
yes.
did you live in a farm?
pardon?
did you live in a farm or a church house?
no.
a church house?
little cottage you know.
was it did it belong to the church?
yes.
yes.
father father was the sex 
the bell-ringer's house.
er?
it was the bell-ringer's house then ?
yeah.
and er he used to be he he mother used to make make some tea for him and warm tea in a bottle in a glass bottle you know.
and he he didn't li he didn't like milk, he liked 
mhm.
and so i was the one that used to take this lunch to father .
mm.
and er i went to look for him once and i couldn't f couldn't find him anywhere.
and i shouted, father, father.
no sign of him.
and there he was, i went to look and i saw at the end there, a big pile of erm earth fresh earth you know.
so i went there and there he was, father was in the bottom of a grave.
did you have to pay rent for the house?
pardon?
did you have to pay rent?
for the house?
did you have to pay rent?
oh yes.
to the church?
yeah.
yes.
was that in the wages?
pardon?
did the church pay your father?
oh yes.
what kind of a house was it?
was it a very small house?
only two only two rooms.
two rooms?
two rooms.
oh.
and how many lived in all of you lived in one house ?
oh we didn't all live together.
you know.
but mother brought up ten of us up and mother was brought up with he grandmother.
mm.
in the little cottage you see.
mm.
and erm so she used and then sh i used to take lunch for father and i couldn't find him.
shouted, father, father.
couldn't find him.
and there i went a bit i once saw a big pile of soil at the back you know.
mm.
so i went towards this soil and there was father in the bottom of a grave.
oh dear.
er how did you manage living in such a small house?
well we didn't we didn't all live together like you know 
mhm.
some of us had gone over the border you know.
so if it was just two rooms you had,
yes.
erm were they both used for sleeping in at night?
oh yes.
and then one would be used erm as in the daytime as a sitting room or
oh no we'd no sitting room.
no.
what were they u what did you do in the daytime then?
oh we used to er we used we used to at sc we used to be at school until we were eleven years old.
mm.
and then we er we left school and then we went to work for to w we went to look for work.
i see.
erm what how did you used to spend your time when you were at school but in your spare time.
oh.
when you weren't at school.
w oh we used to we used to go out gather firewood and we used to
mm.
borrow the er er bits of coal you know from the 
mm.
.
yes.
yes.
what would you do with them then?
oh we used to lay fire.
i see.
yes.
mm.
erm were most people in those days poor?
oh yes very poor, yes.
mm.
they were very very poor.
of course it's got better now you know.
mm.
yes.
did most people erm have a few animals, keep a few animals?
oh yes, mostly yes.
mm.
so you did you just have cows or did you have any other animals?
oh no.
just the cows.
no.
mother used to er the cow used to calf and she used to mother used used to bring the little calf up you know.
mm.
yes.
mm.
did you used to have to milk the cows?
oh yes.
did you do that?
yeah.
mm.
erm do you think you were quite happy as a child?
oh yes, quite happy.
mm.
yes.
we how would your would your mother be busy all the time?
oh yes mother was very busy.
she used to with the with these confinement cases you know.
with the with the mothers who used to have er used to have babies you know.
mm.
and mother used to attend to them with a doctor like you know.
oh.
and she used to do that work.
so she worked almost as a nurse?
oh yes .
like a nurse.
yes yes.
she wasn't qualified was she?
oh no.
no.
but she knew it alright, you know.
mm.
so she helped did she help with the childbirth as well?
pardon?
did she have midwife there, like a midwife?
oh yeah yes.
yes.
yeah.
helped
yeah.
with the children
yeah.
was erm would she get paid for that?
oh yes.
yes?
yes.
so just just occasionally would that 
yes that's right, yes yes.
mm.
erm how did she know how to do that?
well i i tell you how she she she picked it up .
she was brought up with her grandmother
mm.
you see?
yeah.
and but her her her grandmother used to go used to go and so she used to take my mother with you see.
so that's how she got it.
so her grandmother was a midwife?
yes, she was yes yes.
i see, yes.
and that was learnt just by practice then really wasn't it?
just from watching .
yes that's right.
yes, yes, yes.
yeah.
yeah i see.
was that erm would she go all around the island or would she just go round llaneilian area?
oh no you used to used to go to different to different to dig graves in different churches where there was no man to be out to dig a grave 
oh.
you know.
oh yes.
yes.
mm.
how far away would that be that he might go?
pardon?
how far might he have to travel to dig a grave?
oh not well sometimes very very very long way.
but mostly he was at home in the old church you know.
yes.
and different churches round, they used to send for him when there was nobody there.
mhm.
to have the grave digging there.
yes.
yes.
i see.
erm so he would he would have to dig the graves.
and would he have to keep the churchyard?
well m mother used to clean for the church clean
yes.
and er filled up the lamps and all that you know.
oh i see .
and father used to dig the graves.
and my three brothers went after father
mm.
er finished to dig the graves.
i see.
yeah.
yes.
so erm w if had he been doing digging graves when he was in suffolk?
pardon?
had he been doing the same job when he was in suffolk ?
oh no.
no.
no.
no.
no.
no?
no.
no.
no.
oh.
had he been u unable to get work in suffolk?
oh i don't know, i couldn't tell you.
no .
or don't you know?
mm.
erm 
he ca he came with the he came with excuse me he he came with a rector
mm.
from suffolk.
and he ca he got a job in the old church llaneilian church to do this job the gal grave digging you know.
mm.
and my three brothers went after it.
mm.
yes.
was was the rector english?
pardon?
was the rector english?
yes.
could he speak welsh?
yes.
mm.
and father and father was english.
mm.
and father learnt the welsh you know.
mm.
a 
can you tell me sorry.
what age was your father when he came here.
how old was he?
oh he was very young
was he?
he came with with a rector to llaneilian church.
mm.
and after after he came and settled, my three brothers went and dig dig the graves in the old llaneilian church you know .
yes.
and when they were when they were out of er of er anybody to dig the graves they used to send for father.
father used to and do the grave.
mm.
yeah.
did he ring the bells in other churches?
pardon?
did he ring the bells in other churches?
oh yes.
at weddings as well 
yes.
yes.
and funerals.
would he be the only person ringing the bells?
oh no there was a there was another man but he was a but queer like you know he was alright but he used to ring the bell and did you hear the bell ringing on sunday?
and so i said, yes.
and it was him that was ringing the bell you know.
yes.
oh it were all camp.
was there only one bell?
pardon?
was there only one bell?
no there were three there were three bells in the belfry.
yes.
mm.
and how many men did it need to ring the bells?
only one.
only one.
mm.
so he'd ring the bells in other churches as well?
oh.
oh yes.
yes.
yes.
so how would he travel from church to church?
oh walk.
he'd walk?
oh yes.
oh i see.
it would take him a long time then wouldn't it?
oh yes.
they didn't he didn't drink he didn't he didn't dig the graves all a in one in one in one day like you know.
no.
he used to for different days for grave digging 
oh yeah.
there.
mm.
yes.
why how did your brothers manage to do the same job as he did?
well i i suppose they were they were going around with him you know in the 
to do the grave and then they got .
they used to b to do brickwork in the grave.
you know.
to
oh.
to to with bricks.
oh i see.
mm.
was that just sometimes he'd do that?
oh yes.
yes.
something spec for sp for special reasons .
yes.
and where did he get the bricks from?
pardon?
where did he get the bricks from?
oh i suppose they were they used to make them with with with with soil in those days you know.
with soil?
some soil yes and cement you know.
ah.
cement them together and then leave them to dry and them er left them to dry until the till they they get dried you see.
yeah.
so h would he do that as well or would he'd do that.
oh yes.
yes yes yes.
oh i see.
i don't what mother used to mother used to take s chickens.
she used to take dressed chickens six every tuesday.
every tuesday ?
to to a place.
we used to call it.
and she used to dress them and they was ready to put in the oven and with these chickens .
so you'd have to deliver them?
pardon?
to deliver them.
you had to deliver them ?
oh yes, i was at home yes.
what was that every tuesday?
well er well she used two tuesday and thursday and saturday.
she used two the the this lady that took had the chickens and ready to put in the oven there.
and we used to her home in the wintertime 
yes.
so she she did that and she did she was a midwife sometimes as well.
oh yes.
yes yes.
so that all helped with the money did it ?
oh yes.
yes.
yes.
erm did you used to have new clothes ever?
pardon?
did you ever have new clothes, when you were young?
oh not very few.
mm.
erm what about birthdays, did you have anything special on birthdays ?
oh i tell you what we used to have a dresser like this in front of of of a of a h of a of a at home and er mother used to make a a jelly and she used to put it underneath the dresser and put a plate on on top of it in case the mice would get it.
i see.
yes.
mm.
did you used to have erm grow vegetables yourself?
oh yes.
yes.
in the garden you know.
would your father do that or would
oh yes, no he'd do that yes.
mhm.
i remember the once we used to e he used to catch er blackbirds.
catch them?
he used to catch blackbirds.
he used to put a in front in the front and put the and put some string in the and put plums in it.
and 
yeah.
when when the when the blackbird would go in, he'd pull the string.
oh i see.
and and caught them.
and he he used to cook them and do you know we we used to pluck them and we used to roast them by the fire in a 
did you?
yes.
what did it taste like?
oh pardon?
what did it taste like?
oh lovely.
was it?
yes.
what would you eat that with?
oh potato and gra made some gravy.
and 
mm.
slice of bacon you know.
mm.
did would many people eat birds like that ?
oh yeah.
no not many, only father did.
but er not many people would would er do that you know.
mhm.
we had a little garden in the front and we used to put er a in in in the in in on the soil and we used to put some crumbs on on a on a plate you know.
mm.
and then the birds would go and pick the the the 
yes.
the crumbs there.
so when they they we used to pull the pull the pull the pull the bread the the line 
mm.
and c and caught them.
and do you know we used to pluck them and we used to fry em er fr and fry them in front of the fire.
would you roast them?
yes.
yes.
and how many birds would you catch to eat a meal?
oh .
we we used to have lots, they used to go my father used to put er a a bird a bird trap er bird second time to catch and we used to pluck them and and them and roast by the fire you know .
yes.
so erm would you have that often?
would you eat blackbirds often?
well it just depended it was snowy.
yes.
yeah.
because erm was that when there was other food was short?
oh yes.
yeah.
yes.
mm.
did you catch rabbits?
oh father was a great rabbit catcher, yes.
did he keep ferrets?
pardon?
did he keep ferrets.
yes.
oh i was afra 
to catch them with.
i was afraid of the ferrets.
we had to hold them and father put them 
h where would he keep his ferrets?
oh, in a box.
in a box?
yes.
in the house?
no, in the shed.
yes and how many did he have?
oh just depends er sometimes he'd they they brought them little you see so they were father would separate the the big ones from the little ones and 
mm.
yes.
dear me.
what other what other wild animals and birds would you would you eat?
oh
did you have pigeons?
no.
no.
we do we didn't keep any anything else only only ferrets.
fa father used to breed the ferrets you know.
he used to breed them?
and then he used to catch rabbits with them you know.
mm.
did he have to poach to get the rabbit?
pardon?
did he have to poach to get the rabbits?
no.
no?
he was allowed on the land then ?
yes.
mm.
what about pheasants?
did he catch pheasants?
pardon?
did he catch pheasants?
oh no.
no.
he'd have to have a licence to have pheasants.
but he didn't poach?
eh?
did he poach to get the 
yes.
pheasants?
yes.
th they used he used to er hunting with the with the with the with the with the with the with the people that used to go hunting.
with the people you know.
oh right.
from the mansion.
and and er father used to go er a beater with a big stick to beat the he 
yeah.
and do you know father used to now where they used to and he used to go and caught a lot of them .
and them.
in the place where they used to be.
mm.
yeah.
yes.
oh poor old father.
when he went out beating them, beating the pheasants out of the bushes,
yes.
would he get paid for that?
oh yes.
yeah.
he they were er they were er they were hired.
with with the mansion men you see.
yes.
cos he had a big stick like this and beating the woods you know.
yes.
yes.
do you remember the hunts?
do you remember them when you they used to come and hunt?
no i don't i don't remember no.
no .
you don't remember?
no.
erm did he go fishing much your father?
no father never went fishing.
never.
no.
oh.
but my brothers .
yes.
would they catch much fish?
oh yes.
mm.
what what else would you eat when you were young?
oh rabbits.
rabbits.
mm.
yes and fish.
mm.
and er birds we used to we used to we used to father used to caught pheasants occasionally.
mm.
would you ever have erm any other meat? would you have lamb or beef ever?
oh yes we used to have it yes.
yes.
just was that often?
or just a a few times.
on no well we only used to have a nearly every week you know.
mm.
and what vegetables would you have in the garden.
oh we we we we used to have er suede and er carrots.
mm.
and er turnips.
father used to he was a great gardener.
he used to put everything in the garden.
and i tell you what he used to do.
he we used he used to put a in the little front garden like you know.
mm.
and what he used to do in this , he had a string in the and er he could the string put some some er crumbs in the in the er in a and the birds go in and he used to he used to catch them and we used to kill them and pluck them you know.
oh .
which birds were they?
blackbirds.
any other birds?
no.
just blackbirds.
they were lovely too.
mm.
did you used to go to sunday school?
pardon?
did you go to sunday school?
oh yes.
sometimes church until school time.
yeah.
yes.
mm.
ho wold were your were your brothers and sisters all older than you?
pardon?
were your brothers and sisters older than you?
oh yes there were some older than me yes.
and some younger?
yeah.
yes.
mm.
did they all leave school young, all of you?
oh yes.
we had to go to school for we were young.
from what age did you start school?
oh about er about five.
mm.
and you left about eleven?
yes.
mm.
what did you do when you left school?
oh i went to service 
did you?
yes.
where did you go into service?
oh i went to to a place and er there was a staff of maids there you know.
mm.
where was that one?
where was it?
what was it called?
oh 
yes.
what was the name of the house?
.
mm.
and and er so i 
so i er we used to catch these blackbirds and them in a and pull the string and they used er try and catch them and we used to we used to kill them and and pluck them 
roast them.
and roast them.
what did you do in 
right.
do you remember your first day at work?
oh yes.
quite 
yes?
well.
what happened, what was it like?
well er i went when i was when i went first went and do you know i went into the to the place and do you know i run away from the place.
i went to.
was that on your first day?
yes.
did you get sent back again.
oh yes.
mother mother b mother brought me back by the the by my by my hair.
was
were you just eleven then?
you were still eleven.
oh yes i was just eleven yes.
yes.
how far away from your home was ?
oh it was a big way..
did you have to walk there.
yeah.
oh yes.
would you stay there in the 
i didn't stay i went 
you we you didn't like it at first?
no.
oh no.
no.
did you have to live at ?
eh?
did you have to live at ?
sleep there?
did you have to sleep in ?
oh yes yes.
was that, all the week you stayed ?
yeah.
yes.
yes.
what was it like when you were when you were young starting work at that age?
well i used i used to be in the kitchen you know.
mm.
and they used to catch pheasants and er i had to clean i had to pluck these pheasants and er birds and get them ready and ready for them to put in the oven.
yes.
in this mansion place you know.
yes so you were a scullery maid were you?
pardon?
you were a scullery maid when you started ?
yes that's right yes yes.
i see.
and what else would you do besides the pheasants?
oh i used to well the used to catch rabbits you know.
mm.
and i used to kill er c er clean them.
mm.
and i used to get them ready for them to put in the oven or fry it.
and i sometimes i used to fry them first.
and in the oven and er put some in the oven and put some gravy on and they were lovely now.
were they?
yeah.
erm would you have to do a lot of cleaning work as well in the kitchens?
oh no.
you wouldn't?
no.
no.
you were doing the food 
no.
were you?
no no no.
would you spend all your time preparing food?
oh yes mostly .
yes.
vegetables and you know
yes.
and birds.
how many people worked in the kitchen?
oh there were there were there were cook and cook waitress and cook general and waitress oh i don't know how many they were.
were there a lot of other servants as well?
oh yes in the in the big rooms 
you know.
we were in the back place you see.
yes.
where would you sleep?
would you sleep in 
oh sleep in sleep in the mansion place.
whereabo would you be upstairs in the attics or
oh no, in the attic.
in the attic?
yes.
how many people what kind of number of servants stayed in the house?
oh 
about twenty or
pardon?
about twenty or would you say more ?
oh yes.
about twenty?
something like that yes.
mm.
who who was the master of the house?
oh he he was the he was the sir thomas .
?
yes.
i see.
mm.
did you used to see erm the master of the house ever?
oh yes very very often see him.
mm.
he was a nice gentleman.
top hat.
mm.
and a walking stick.
yes.
would you erm be afraid of of him?
no.
you wouldn't?
no.
no he was very nice.
mm.
he was a proper gentleman.
what about the lady?
pardon?
what about the lady of the house?
oh she was there too.
was she nice?
yes very nice.
and what did you think of the clothes?
pardon?
what did you think of the clothes?
oh beautiful.
do you remember what kind they were?
oh they were beautiful things.
er satin blue and satin green you know.
mm
and er and and the hats with with the bow with a bow on it .
were you did you wish you had clothes like that when you were young?
oh aye you know.
did you?
yes.
did you used to have to wear a uniform?
oh yes.
you did?
what was it like?
oh very nice.
i used to i used to er wear print and white apron in the in the morning.
and in the afternoon i used to wear erm a blue and er and er blue oh i forgot.
and a big bow 
mm.
would you serve food as well at the table?
oh yes.
you served the food as well?
yes.
yes.
i see.
did they often have big parties?
oh yes, they had parties galore.
did they?
yes.
erm would they have lots of important people coming to dinner 
oh yes.
mm.
yes.
did you look forward to occasions like that?
oh yes i did.
you did?
weren't weren't you afraid you'd do something wrong?
oh no.
no.
no.
oh.
erm were they the master and mistress of the house, in the house all year?
oh yes they were there all all the year round they were they were there.
yes.
mm.
they wouldn't go away much?
no no.
mm.
would they have people guests to stay?
oh yes.
they would?
yes.
erm
they were they were people in those days too you know.
good people you know.
mm.
i remember the one one of the ladies, er she was dressed in erm in green and she had a big bow .
big you know.
mm.
and a big hat and she had a big bow she looked you know .
yes.
can you tell me about erm a typical days work that you would have to do.
can you remember what you'd have to do?
oh w when i first went to to place i i had to er i had to clean er clean i had to i was like a scullery maid.
and i used to clean birds, poultry you know pheasants and things like that.
and i used to and ready to put in the oven.
dressed up and i used to take them and i used to leave them in the kitchen and the the head kitchen maid er the head kitchen maid w went and took them in.
mm.
ready to put in the oven see.
yes.
erm what time in the morning would you have to get up?
oh now then.
that's a hard one.
was it very early?
oh yes.
yes.
we used to get up seven o'clock in the morning you know.
mm.
would you as all the servants would you eat together yourselves?
oh yes.
yes.
where would you eat, in the kitchen?
yes in the kitchen yes.
mm.
and would you eat leftovers from from the from the mai the master's food?
or would you have erm a s a different meal altogether?
oh no we had we had fresh meals for for ourselves and they had different meals for the for the gentlemen as well you know .
yeah.
yes.
we could see it all set in the in the kitchen ready to put in the oven you know.
mm
yes.
would you be allowed to eat anything belonging to the the gentlemen's food and any any of his food .
oh er er leftover sort of thing?
yes.
oh no no.
you wouldn't?
no.
no?
no.
was there a big difference between your meals and his meals?
no.
no?
we all ate the same.
mhm.
yes.
so you'd have quite nice food.
oh yes.
yes.
erm did you once you settled down working there, did you like it?
oh yes i liked it.
yes.
i had to or all i could go somewhere else.
mhm.
how often would you go home?
oh not very often.
mhm.
no.
did you look forward to going home sometimes?
oh yes.
yes.
i i i i went to to a place first and er i and i i went home you know, without them knowing.
mother took me back by the hair 
mhm.
by my hair.
did did they know you'd gone home?
pardon?
did they know that you went?
no.
no?
what did your mother say then, was she cross with you?
no she said, oh, she said, what do you want?
so i says, i i don't like there i want to go i want to come back.
so she said, look here my dear girl, she said, you go back and tell the lady that you 
do you remember how much they paid you?
pardon?
well there was a lot of call for that.
mhm.
and women worked in that department, whereas the men worked at the huge broadloom
mhm.
looms which are very heavy, very heavy, and through fashion, fashion changing and i mean people don't have these things any more.
a lot of pubs and hotels will do the the their places out in these narrow sections so if one gets worn they can lift it up and 
mhm, yeah.
replace it.
but houses, when you're doing a house you, you don't tend to do that now, you just have your broad loom 
mm.
and fit it in.
so in that relationship 
the d the, the women are redundant as it were.
yes.
there only is two, well there are two, one, they do shiftwork.
mhm.
and the they'll turn a week about.
but the the there's not the call in this er place for, for women in the weaving department.
mhm.
but our department hasn't changed, the women are just doing the same job as they did sixty 
mhm.
years ago.
and probably in the picking as well.
in the winding it's just their lot hasn't changed a great deal.
mhm, mhm.
except i would say the winders are worse off cos they're doing three shifts .
right, mhm.
and i just couldn't hack that i don't think.
aha.
mm.
so, erm have you got, do you have a lot of friends through work do you find, i mean do you sort of organize things after work, do you ever go for a drink ?
well a lot, a lot of people er er do er ju just about three weeks ago two women from our department retired so we had er we had a night out up in , that's where they live, so there is that kind of thing,
aha.
or if on the few occasions that someone gets married, they hold a night.
, aha.
er and some of the girls do like make-up parties and things like that.
some 
mhm.
of them go to the weight training at .
mhm.
but as i say i don't do that kind of thing, i, i prefer to go away to the hills,
aha, are you a keen climber?
and, and do my thing.
mhm.
my daughter thinks i'm mad.
when it came to my fortieth birthday she said, what would you like for your birthday?
i said, i'd like a really good pair of trainers.
and i'm no good at tying laces so she got me a pair of adidas you know with the velcro,
aha.
she said, why can't you be a normal mother and just want chocolates or perfume?
i said, well that's not much good when you're hanging from the end of a rope .
and who do you go with?
i go with my husband.
your husband?
mhm.
and whereabouts do you go, just
oh glencoe, skye, aran, you know just
mhm.
up there.
do you, do you stay up there, do you have 
mhm.
a caravan.
no, a tent, or we've got an estate car if it's just a weekend jaunt, and it's maybe wet, we just sleep in the back of the car 
aha.
so complete change from this place anyway,
aha, and you meets up with so many wonderful people.
aha, aha.
it gives you something else to talk about.
that's right, aha.
instead of just,going to tescos for some groceries or
i mean i, i, i don't drink a lot, i mean maybe after i've been out in the hills you have got to drink something to replace the sweat, but i'm not a great drinker and i don't, i don't smoke and i, i don't like discos or anything like that 
mhm.
so you've got to find something else to do.
that's right, a healthy pursuit.
i used to play a lot of badminton and swimming but i've got bored out of my ears so it's something to keep fit.
mhm.
so i bought myself a bike, and i've been popping backwards and forwards to my like 
how about 
ah but as i say my daughter thinks i'm mad.
how about nicknames?
you have a lot of nicknames in the factory?
er well er the just these two people that retired there, er they used to come this man in a car from , that was their lift to their work.
and it was the days of the c b
mhm.
and he had this handle,a and er they were saying, we'll need to get ourself a handle,
ah, i said, well what about the dolly sisters?
so that stuck and eventually when that place folded and we came over here, er we just called them the dollies and that was, they were referred to, everybody knew who they were,
aha.
the dollies.
aha.
so that, that's a bit of it in there.
aha.
so you just basically, you all 
a and, and 
know each other by your ordinary names?
mhm.
you don't shout nicknames 
mhm.
at each other, no?
well not in our department anyway, i don't know, i can't speak for anybody else.
aha, right.
although i've worked in nearly all the departments you don't really get to know the people that well.
mhm.
have we missed out anything, is there anything 
i don't know.
you'd like to tell us?
cos we're novices at this.
och aye.
i mean er does it bother you at all that well i mean are most of the men managers?
managers men?
er the management
where's the opportunities for like female apprentices and things like that?
nowadays i mean i know there never used to be apprenticeships for women but 
well i don't know if there are any women, i couldn't tell you whether any girls have applied to be like trainee tenters, that's people that sort 
mhm.
the looms.
or, the trainees in our department would be female anyway.
mhm.
and the way the management work in here,i can say is they,aim they're promoting anybody to a chargehand they usually promote somebody that's actually no threat to themselves.
there's a kind of yes man, that, that's the way the carpet industry works in general.
mhm.
they don't promote somebody that's gonna shimmy past them up the corporate ladder although you couldn't 
say this place 
is a, a giant corporation .
mhm.
aha.
but sometimes i, i do feel that the girls, i, i know a couple of people in other departments that you could say would do the job equally well as the man they've put in, they probably 
aha.
have bu be a better grounding.
aha.
yes.
but i saw that in the glazier and when i worked in there, they would bring people in.
mhm.
oh 
m 
they wouldn't promote?
no, er, if you had a degree,
aha.
and you absolutely no knew nothing about producing plain bearings you were sitting in the chair and probably a guy that worked his way through the factory floor who knew the job inside out, he was still 
a deputy.
aha.
but because er you maybe had a degree well you get in there and you have to start 
mhm.
learning all this but you didn't know all the
mhm.
the ins and outs.
mhm.
but that happens all over.
mhm, what's the pay like compared to other factories in the area?
it's quite low.
is it?
mhm.
because er how many years ago is it?
seven or eight years ago we, we, we're on piecework, we made our own wage.
er and most of us had in excess of a hundred pound, maybe a hundred and six, a hundred and ten pound, but when this guy bought place over, there was a kind of flat rate, and we'd to drop sixteen pounds to ninety 
mm.
pounds.
well at the time you're thinking, god that's better than twenty or twenty five pound if you were unemployed,
that's right.
on the brew, kind of thing.
mhm.
so you jumped at the chance, but it is, i think th th poverty wage in europe is it not, not about a hundred and forty, a hundred and forty five pounds?
well we're nowhere near that, nowhere near that.
mm, that's right, mm.
that's why when i hear my daughter talking about getting fifteen or twenty k a year i'm going it would pay me two or three years for god's sake.
you can look after me then.
but saying that if you want a decent wage in here you have to work a lot of overtime.
yes.
and most people do.
mm.
because er i from the management point of view if you have got four hundred people and you work a lot of overtime that saves you having six or seven hundred people.
mhm.
and if you want to cut back you can either cut down on your workforce or you can cut down in the 
mhm.
overtime.
in my department just now they're working seven days a week,
mhm.
and four, four nights overtime.
mm.
i couldn't do that, not that i want to.
do you think the conditions make people kind of like-minded in like the respective politics and things like that?
do you think it's sort of, you know, do you hold a lot of views in common with people you work beside or?
not, no, not really.
not really.
we've got quite a mixture.
oh, has it gone round a bit?
yeah, it's gone round a bit now.
yeah.
well we had oh i'm trying to think what we had today oh got out of assembly because i had to go and speak to this maths teacher who's dead boring!
mr but like i pretended i had to go and see him not because i had to go and see him just because i didn't wanna go to assembly really!
oh!
cos i'm like that!
we haven't, we haven't got assembly at the moment cos like you know that erm musical ?
oh yeah.
it's all, all that but ooh, that's a groovy stage !
oh what!
oh yeah 
left over left over at and stuff which
oh yes 
oh we've made these telephones !
and well look 
well we know that now !
yeah but it's just 
ah gee have a look if shaun and joanna are back, oh yeah they are.
i said i'd go down there but the, like the car wasn't there so i didn't go back.
oh dear !
i didn't, i didn't know joe was out actually.
yes.
isn't scott down there?
no, he's gone to a play at the college and a yeah i was er like when i realised that had come on i thought does he know?
just don't say anything !
and thought that they were picking his nose !
maybe he's not in !
i thought, oh never mind !
put the phone down again.
and then i thought, well you can always and like say, can you tell scott!
and i will 
can you tell i've come on so i'm not pregnant!
alright?
and i thought like his mum might not find that really amusing or anything
yeah.
so and i thought i could just leave him sort of like a message that was subtle enough 
so he'd know, like erm
tell him he's not a daddy!
yes !
ring , could you tell scott that er that erm oh god, i don't know!
actually i was thinking of some really good, funny things i could say earlier 
i can't think of any now!
things like erm oh yeah, could yo could you tell scott that er, he doesn't have to go to church and pray any more, something like that !
tell him he doesn't have to go to confession with helena!
that's right !
oh gee!
he doesn't have to book me an appointment at the clinic !
ooh i wonder what that could be about ?
er, like this morning at break i walked, i walked straight past peter right and er come up to me and he goes that's not very nice is it?
i thought what !
he just walked straight past me, oh well i'm so sorry and he goes what's wrong with you anyway lately?
nothing!
nothing wrong with me !
nothing at all!
it's !
oh pete can i talk to you about something ?
oh shrimpy made me laugh me about it cracks me up like !
ah, look at the, look, just look at this letter he wrote me!
ah pete , yeah he was saying 
i i 
joe was saying how how he was really embarrassed cos he showed your mum or something!
my mum goes what letter's that?
i goes oh it , you read it.
like like all the way to it i was thinking 
helena, i don't really know how to put this but i i'll have a go.
i thought he said i've got to go!
i was gonna say bye !
that's a long letter then!
i'm sorry about being in a mood saturday but i wasn't really in a mood with you.
i know i told you that i was but i was feeling sorry for someone, not emma or anyone like that.
oh dear !
i care for emma more than i can say, but i also care for you and i'm really sorry if you were hurt.
excuse me!
excuse me!
excuse me!
wuargh!
oh .
i had to in that!
at the moment everyone has been talking about other people behind people's backs yeah shrimp, you got good english!
i didn't tell you what emma thought 
just in case you're catching this bit !
that's cos i don't know.
i don't think a person told, who apologises isn't really an apology but i thought there must a reason why you didn't.
yeah.
ah oh!
i know he, he can't write!
and joe told me on sunday 
you're illiterate!
why yo , you didn't.
i was going to apologise for being stupid on sunday when you both disappeared.
me and andy looked all over for you both last night i had a few things on my mind 
didn't look very well, we were walking down by the side of the road !
but 
things on my mind er, my my mind to be able to apologise.
oh i'm sorry !
and hope we can still be friends?
love to be !
well whe , when i got to that 
bit i went i mean i was feeling a lit , wasn't , i'm gonna barf!
oh i'm going urgh!
i just thought get a life!
you know how 
give me that !
he makes me laugh he always writes in capital letters doesn't he?
mm.
and 
join in !
oh you sound like mrs 
yeah!
!
wow!
well and he wrote me this letter saying erm saying i, i realise that there's been something on your mind recently and i hope you can talk to me about it.
oh yeah, by the shrimp i could of got pregnant!
things like and i know you can talk to me 
because you've got the world's problems and everything !
ah, it ju , although, i mean, just when you said that just reminded me that time hannah !
i'll never 
oh god!
i was just bor , the rest of my days!
you joked me about what she should of in the day?
yeah, yeah oh
when.
god!
what, what what exactly 
i was staying on i said oh er, yeah cos yo , had joe saying you were disappointed that i couldn't say it to your face!
and i said, ah yeah, but she didn't say it to my face, did you see 
and er and erm and joe was saying this to shrimpy i think, or so i think she was saying to shrimpy
mm.
and erm
hannah 
yeah, hannah hannah 's got a twitch!
and was going, i know what she said,i was there !
oh!
i'm thinking i'm sure you were hannah because actually you were inside and they were outside, there's like a door and the rest of the house between you!
i think, ah gee!
but i can't believe that girl oh scott tells me everything!
like i ju , honestly i 
oh yes!
scott , scott, scott told me what it was all about and i was going,not to me!
it's me here !
oh yeah !
it might be and oh ah i was just sat there going mm, yes i believe hannah!
you 
yeah.
you don't actually know anything that we're talking about!
because we hate you!
but there you go !
no i don't hate her she just annoys me badly!
that's all !
she made ee she made a heather a birthday cake the other day and i, i've got say actually this cake was pretty good but like, she had to take it to school!
i mean, the girl is sad!
if you're gonna take a birthday cake to school i mean, that is sad isn't it?
my brain's just died !
but that is very very sad!
but like er, she took it sch to school and scott was giving us a lift to school so didn't have to walk and she's in the car and she's going if this gets if this gets all smashed up scott i hope you realise i'm blaming you!
and she was serious!
i was thinking
i would of turned round and ge get out 
i did 
get out the fucking car!
i sa , i said i just went i just said to her look hannah you don't have to come in the car!
and like, i said it jokingly but wi with 
mm.
like a sort of you know 
sort of with a sort of i'm dying to stick this knife in your back !
yes.
oh!
oh, did you see inspector morse last night?
no i saw the very end bit.
did you see the where's she where that girl stabbed er her what was that girl in?
i was sat there, me and my dad were going,what has she been in ?
she was in erm
got a really irritating voice hasn't she?
you know where there was that there was the young girl and there was the old wo , oldish woman who was supposed to be a film star or something?
oh yeah!
that thing where erm she, she worked for him so that 
yeah.
she lived in that hotel.
mm.
oh yes, i know that!
oh that thing that was supposed 
it was crap wasn't it!
to be funny!
that stupid 
everyone thought the 
irritating little dog and th , the and ted out of grange hill porter !
yeah.
did you watch the one where you wanted to go mm i'd like to casserole that dog!
yeah !
ahhh !
ah dear!
what a mouth!
i wonder if they let you 
look 
keep the tapes?
i've only used one!
keep all the rest, i've had nineteen !
your .
you know?
look
say nothing!
this is, this is sad i am and how worried i've been this has been round my neck!
my luckiest lucky pendant !
lucky is looking bent which has been bent and battered !
it's like, got scrapings out of it and everything and and it's in this little lovely container or something down my neck!
i, i bet, i bet i i bet it's the first time in your life you felt shi , yes come on !
which i'm saying, you can hold m , you can hold me to this, i will never ever ever complain about being on again in my life!
but i think 
ah dear!
i'll just boycott that now and start complaining!
ah dear!
and we nearly made andy sick yesterday, it was so funny!
we was going like because like, we was talking about it and er he goes 
about what?
periods.
oh, being on!
yes and er, like i said er i was, like i was talking to like he was 
yeah !
i goes yeah it was you know i the worst time is in assembly and you think oh jesus!
and you stand up and you like you like mm, accidentally rub your hand on your arse 
yeah.
just to make sure !
sure, yeah !
and you look at the chair just to make sure there isn't a pool on there!
yeah !
and you walk away going like this you know ooh let's squeeze my legs in as much as possible !
yeah .
we thought we'd start with an interesting topic !
well why not!
it's what we talk about all the time anyway!
yeah !
yeah.
i tell you when we'll have to put this on on saturday night!
but, when everyone's gone when it's just us three!
oh yeah!
that'll be a right one!
my dog's a virgin !
my dog's a big dobbo !
i'll never forget that i will never forget that, i had, i'll told my mum like that we i told my mum we'd be sleeping over and she said that was alright and she sort of looked at me as if to say mm, yes will helena's brother be there?
yes, helena's brother will there all night, mum!
jimmy hill!
not that she's sleeping at clare's are we ?
no !
it's a bit.
oh wild !
he will be back about ooh eleven o'clock in the morning !
oh no!
look at me weep !
i'm really disappointed cos i don't think my mum will let me stay now!
i think you're just gonna rush home and tell her and everything else!
yeah!
course i am!
oh mum i've decided not to sleep at helena's because her nice brother's gonna be there!
mum goes, well do you wanna stay there if the dog's gonna be there?
oh no 
no 
i'll put the dog in the shed!
.
no mum, actually erm i'm not gonna go down to helena's and wi ,wi , you know with the dogs 
i'm gonna come home 
perhaps have the riot you know!
they're all gonna be being arsed out their faces!
everyone's just gonna be laying on the floor going god i'm arsed!
i'm blood thirsty!
everybody's just gonna have a real riot!
and then helena, joanne and me would be sleeping over but because they've got a dog i'm not going to sleep!
in case it spits on me !
yeah !
again !
again !
no but like i said to my mum it'll be alright because your do , your brother'll be in all evening won't he helena?
honestly, yeah!
honest guv!
my brother, my brother really wants to did, did you know pete like, phoned me up yesterday
yeah.
and like i thought, i had to make up an excuse why i went out!
cos ever , like my mum and my brother were in when i got home.
so i came home and i goes 
and he go and mum goes where have you been?
i goes, oh there's been arguments again!
oh there's you spend all your time sorting out other people's arguments and i'm not as thick as that!
actually mum, i'm not!
stick the v's up at you mum!
behind the wall of course!
i don't think i'll go i don't want to have a broken nose!
and er and er 
got any nail clippers?
yeah er there!
ah!
and er
dog brush ooh!
yeah.
looks like a dog's brush 
ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh!
do you think?
just see if you 
erm 
can say it before anybody 
excuse me!
else!
what?
i've got a red one of those !
oh!
yeah, but it's not as big as it's not the same size as that is it?
no, cos yours is a cat brush and mine's a dog brush!
oh sorry!
dog!
you calling me a cat?
yes!
are you calling me a dog?
i hope so!
foxy chick !
alright then, i'll let you off!
ah!
erm did i tell you about that lucy and ricky?
when lucy reckoned ricky didn't want her any more?
and i goes do this to ricky go up to lucy and go yo, hot chick!
come over to my place i'll drop my trousers and we can have a quickie !
and he did !
and what did she say?
er sorry 
nothing could of told her that i, i to , i told her and she goes
what did she say?
i told her say something really, really stupid like like okay then steaming dude or something !
alright then.
okay!
and then, where was i?
oh yeah!
so i came home, my mum goes what you be ,wha what's happening anyway?
i goes ah shrimpy's been having a massive go at pete he's threatened to punch his face in and all this business !
gosh you ge , i bet pete was worried!
i know !
but he was, he was threatening him anyway and he said pete was 
what from friday night?
do you know about what?
no, no he's been befo , been after that!
yeah.
why?
woh,christ 
she's been in a shop with him i think.
they'll .
yeah, they'll !
erm why, why was he doing that on friday?
yeah, well apparently right well in case you didn't 
well she's got a theory but go on 
in case you didn't notice i was in rather a little bit of a mood on friday!
were you ?
i didn't try to hide it oddly enough !
oddly enough!
i went cos it was then i goes to pete, oh no i ought to go out really, and he goes no you're not!
sort of looked at me and went okay 
well if you 
i'm not arguing !
if you want my body, you know you've got it!
you only have to ask once!
but like erm
i wonder if they listen to these?
if you are listening
er i know i look like a real goody goody and everything i'm not really !
anyhow, the man 
go on.
with the man
i thought woh!
i was so tempted to sit there and say excuse me dear you need a shave!
or, excuse me you look like my dad twenty years ago!
that exci , it's alright this thing from the past, he did remind me of someone actually.
mr that's who it is !
mr ,.
ooh ooh fiddle with my moustache!
i bet they know you 
anyway, right what was it about 
cos they won't be able to understand a thing we are saying!
going ooh!
er er er er er!
i i !
and we're talking at the same time as well?
oh let's not all talk at the same time!
let's be magic roundabout people!
so they want a realistic conversation 
then do they?
no let's let's loo 
anyway, where was i?
i was saying, oh yeah erm shrimpy like, we, me and scott were playing snooker and i, i came in to see if like, either of you, anyone else wanted to play doubles and like,swimp , shrimpy was just sat by himself in the middle of the floor, cross-legged just sat there like a little pixie or something!
well, no not a little 
and i just went 
six foot three pixie !
right, so a six foot three pixie, never mind!
but like he was just sat there!
and i went over, i goes you alright?
he goes, yes!
oh sorry!
please forgive me!
i goes, do you wanna go, go and play snooker?
so he goes, yeah alright then.
oh come on you can be on my side cos it was obvious, like, he was just sort of sat there.
mm.
and erm and then like, he went back in after we'd finished playing and me and scott carried on playing for a bit and then erm what was he going?
oh yeah, he told me afterwards right, that he, the only reason he was angry was because friday night reminded him of the time in his past or something!
and pete reminded him of, him of the person that he hated and all this!
and i was thinking shrimpy, you're stupid!
get a life !
you sure!
oh !
and then, cos i thought boy!
so what did he do?
what did shrimpy do on friday night?
oh, he told richard richard that he was, he was gonna se , he wanted to smack pete's face in!
oh yeah!
so what did richard do?
course, richard who keeps everything to himself !
richard not known as mersey tunnel gob or anything !
oh dear !
oh dear i couldn't believe it though!
i mean that is sad!
ahhh no!
i can't believe it!
but pete reckoned it was because like cos like pete's seeing susan
mm.
and like 
then he was with you.
and he was with me
yeah.
and he reckoned pete was a total bastard and everything!
even though he doesn't know susan he a 
yeah.
he reckons pete's cheating on susan, he's been really bad to helena as well he's just using them and all 
yeah.
this business.
but, in a way i mean like, i thought that as well, but then i thought well that's stupid that is because you weren't as as bad as pete was were you?
i mean, let's face it
i mean, who's taking advantage of him 
you were ta , you were taking advantage, not him!
i mean, on both times it's been me taking advantage of him, it really 
yeah.
because
i mean he 
he's been both times and i haven't.
let's face it you fancy him don't you?
he knows that!
and 
mm mm 
like he just i mean he just you know, he's there isn't he, at the time?
he thinks like, okay fair enough lets have a bit of snog you know, fair enough, whatever else!
but like
he's so funny though!
he cracked me up, he goes like, like with that i mean
and shrimpy fancies you rotten anyway!
that's the only the reason!
he's probably just jealous!
well like i said, i said that, i said that to pete and pete goes, god i wish he'd make up his mind!
yeah.
so he'd obviously sa not said it, i mean pete was really shocked!
he'd 
yeah.
obviously not said anything to pete about me
mm.
so i dunno!
he said it to andy though, and i mean i don't, i don't know, andy really surprises me because like he always seems to be like, the quiet one doesn't it?
i mean, when we're all like, laughing and joking and everything he's like, oh yeah really in with it but when everyone's like arguing or whatever he he 
mm.
doesn't get involved because everything revolves round him doesn't it?
yeah.
but like everybody,eve 
it's his house everyone goes to isn't it?
everybody seems to andy seems to know everything!
like, andy knows about me!
and like, scott told me and thinking about it if i'd of been in in the frame, frame of mind that i'm in know for example, i would of sort of pah!
what right has he got to know or anything?
but like, i don't mind cos i know he won't say anything.
mm.
i mean flipping talk about keeping it a secret!
i went to the door last night ten minutes after scott had told him and like, i was crying at the door, and he goes ahh, is something not wrong like, you know?
and he was being nice, but sort of, jokingly nice and i goes oh yeah, you know?
and er, he goes oh i don't expect, has it got anything to do with helena and joan?
i said, oh no nothing to do with them and he goes ah, shrimpy then?
i said no.
and like, i'd no idea that he knew!
and 
mm.
erm like he's really nice like that though.
yeah, i know 
i re , i'd i mean, i don't fancy him, no fair enough he's ugly in my opinion!
yeah.
but, i really do like, i'm, i'm always 
he's a really nice person!
i mean the i mean, like, i mean, people say it that a personality makes up for like, looks or whatever, and with hi , he's the only person i've ever met where it really really does!
yeah.
his personality is just so nice!
and he's 
yeah.
such a lovely person he really is!
you know and i 
yeah.
just think ahhh, you know?
that's, i tell you what that's the one person that, sitting here thinking now, i can't think of any time where i've been angry with andrew
no.
at all.
like i get, i mess about with him and like
yeah!
cos like, he told everyone about me and pete and everything, you know?
yeah.
like what him and joe had an argument about.
but er you know?
so you're not gonna say that on the tape then are you hel ?
no, i'm not gonna, i'm not gonna say it on the tape,!
but i mean he did, well he, he knew, i told him
mm.
but i mean, him and joe were in the room at the same time.
yeah.
you know, and i you know, i sort of told him.
well i did 
mm.
tell him !
and he, but he didn't actually tell anybody.
mm.
i mean, he made a few comments a but nothing that anybody could tell.
no.
i mean, everybody knows now anyway.
yeah.
to do , can you really see them all?
what?
the
what?
the them things.
no, i di , i had one on my neck
yeah.
i had one
the things that we're not actually mentioning!
i had one there 
yeah.
you might just 
well a 
be able to see the last little of it.
i can't actually see it, no.
and i've got a ye nice yellow bruise there.
yeah.
and i've got one on my back.
and can you see that one?
let's have a butchers!
where?
thought it was just there somewhere.
it's probably gone now actually.
yeah 
just there.
think it has.
it was just there.
no, i can't see anything.
but there wa , i've got 
just there.
a nice yellow bruise still there.
you can see the one that scott done the other day.
you know i've got that school shirt with the big collar?
mhm.
like
joanne told me about that you 
the 
can see it straight through it!
the shirt and the collar and you could still see it!
and it was like, i'm not joking, it was the colour of that!
mm.
and it was there a week, oh well, at the last, the last thing i saw of it was like, monday night and when did he give it me?
the sat , the we , the saturday a week before!
and i swear, it really hurt!
and it right on as well, just there!
mm.
really really hurt it did!
and it wasn't, oh god!
and we only did it as a joke!you !
i didn't even know they were there to be quite honest.
i got 
mm.
up the next morning and, cos i had that you know, that stripy top on?
yeah.
and my mum, my mum was sat in the weathers with me and i'd talked to her and everything and i didn't even know that that 
yeah.
one was there!
and like,but like, i got 
up the next morning and i just went oh jesus!
but there was 
they were like 
this one
still 
and 
up there and the one on my back as well!
and scott, scott did this and like and erm he goes oh it's not that bad!
and i goes, oh you stupid git!
why did you have to do it there for, you know?
put my school shirt on, oh you won't see it!
oh no won't see it with that flipping big collar on my school shirt!
actually, you couldn't see it, but you could see it through anyway so it didn't make really that much difference.
but like, i got the mirror down and like, i looked at it and whether it was the light or whether it just hadn't come up cos it was only like, a few seconds afterwards
mm.
i looked at it and it was just like sort of, light brown and i thought oh that's not too bad!
i got home and it was like, glowing and i'm thinking oh my god!
there was like, arrows pointed to it still !
i mean, i only had that one on my neck and i thought and like i was i was !
wi , with your polos on !
collars !
all round you!
like, my dad le , like i was doing the crossword or something my dad leant over me and i went, yeah, oh really!
yeah.
i haven't actually got a neck !
yeah, that was like me, i mean like i'd, i wasn't bad like, cos all the time i was just wearing like polo necks or like shirts with high collars and stuff cos it wasn't actually on my neck it was just like on my, this one.
mm.
i don't know what that is actually?
it's a collarbone .
collarbone yeah.
but like erm pyjamas, cos you know i wo , i usually wear those ones with like low neck or like 
yeah.
my babygro or something.
mm.
so like, there was me sort of all of a sudden wearing like old t-shirts and stuff in bed so that i'd got quite high collars and mum was sort of going 
aren't your pyjamas clean?
yeah, they're clean but i wanna clear up spots on my back!
yeah, still wanna clear up the spots on my back.
can you see through here mum?
oh dear!
i mean, i mean it wo that was pro , the lightest one on my 
yeah.
neck!
that was lucky really in a way 
oh!
isn't it?
and i was thinking, oh i wa honestly i didn't know they were there.
but like, scott was going to me he was going to me, oh stop complaining or i'll give you one your tit, like and i goes well i wouldn't mind so much if it was on my , i wear a bra all the time 
you know i mean
yeah.
you don't even take your bra off to do p e or whatever!
i mean, no one 's gonna see it there are they?
you're flipping massive one !
i dunno.
if zena saw it and, and made a a subtle comments like 
mm.
you know
oh got a nasty 
ah 
bruise there!
yeah, actually se , i sa , actually she said oh what, have you been walking into this time?
hah, shut up!
shut up before i punch your face in!
but like erm no one else saw it.
but, i tell you what, it was so embarrassing!
the, it was the mo , the monday after the saturday got, the saturday it was done, i had p e oh great!
so there's me like i'm sat in first lesson we have p e last lesson sat in the first lesson and i'm th , i've thought god my bra strap feels really lose!
so i'm right i thought oh my god!
there's a gap in between, they're not attached any more!
what would you do ?
.i mean, like, okay it wasn't bad i mean let's face it and i'm not exactly flipping dolly parton am i?!
exploding everywhere wouldn't she !
but like, i was thinking this is gonna be so embarrassing like in p e!
with ha half a bra on !
!
my cups down my cups down to my waist !
i sa , i was sat there and and then we was in maths, like the lesson before and i was going zena, i don't wanna do p e!
i just do not want to do p e!
and she's going, why not?
you like p e, i don't wanna do it zena will you write me a letter to get me out of it?
she's going no i won't, you know, not unless you tell me what it i , why it is you don't wanna do it!
so in the end i wro , i wrote her this letter because i couldn't say it out loud in case anyone else heard me!
and say that i've busted my bra strap !
so she goes, oh don't worry about it.
like, we go into the loo and like, you can mend it.
mm.
so of course i've thought oh yeah that's all, okay, i thought, cos like, some of them have got the loop actually on the, the like on the top of the cup haven't they?
mm.
did this one?
no!
the loop's attached to the end of the strap!
it's a bit of the cup that's actually come apart, unsewn!
so that meant i had to get the part of the, the top bit of the cup, thread it through the hoo , the hoop and then tie it in a knot!
so like, you can imagine i had to have all the strap completely undone so like the, the buckle was like down here!
and above the knot!
comfortable then?
well it wasn't, it wasn't that bad but like it was really weird because like you could see like, people like, especially the lads, just sort of looking at you and then like not meaning to be pervy but just like, looking again as if to think why has emma got a, a extraordinary lump on half the top of her boob, you know !
it's like a lump there!
they're thinking, mm, a shame !
but like, it was alright then because like means that you can changed up in this one corner of the changing room all the time and so i'd got my shirt on while i was putting my t-shirt on like for the reason that my bra strap was bust, not actually because i'd got a gigantic love bite around my neck !
but like er
but i mean 
so that was alright really.
but, i couldn't believe it cos i he goes to me, what do you think of love bites?
and i goes, i think they're horrible to be quite honest, i don't 
yeah.
like them!
same as me!
i goes to scott, i really really hate love bites and er and he goes, yeah and me.
the only time he's ever had one was at this kid's party fran , franny someone, he's actually a bloke !
ooh that's 
i said that's he went to this party and he he was like really hard and he was really drunk and he gave scott, noel and ian a love bite like for a joke !
he just decided to do just for a laugh!
oh, how sick!
ah what a gay !
i know like, anyway but like, scott had gone home said to his mum like, is his mum isn't, going what's that on your neck?
you know,woh what you been doing, sort of thing!
and he's told her the whole story so noel's gone home and his mum's gone, what's that on your neck?
so noel's gone oh someone tripped me up, i fell down the stairs and hit it on the coffee table, right!
his mum believed him!
so then his scott's mum and noel's mum met in town and they were just talking and scott's mum it's dis , god it's disgusting isn't it that lad given all them little lads love bites!
and er noel's mum's going well what?
i don't know what you mean!
noel said he'd hit it on the coffee table !
next day at school, noel's come in and gone to scott, you bastard!
why do you have go and tell your mum the truth for !
i'd never tell my mum that!
like, luckily they're 
oh god!
no , not very big but i've still got the one, i've still got, and it's right next to it as well!
mm.
now it's yellow now it's going!
yeah.
but, ah 
ah gee
ah jesus!
i think they're 
at least 
really disgusting!
cos like, scott was going i've never gave anyone one, you know.
and er hannah's going we started off the conversation where was the perviest you've ever had one i mean, knowing that i didn't have one, ever had one before and that was mark , feeble attempt that lasted about ten minutes 
i think !
and i was really upset about that as you can imagine!
but like erm what was i saying?
oh yeah so i was going what's the perviest place?
i was thinking, you know, scotts bound to have some pervy ones off mandy !
but like er, and he was going oh i've never had one except for like, this franny bloke!.
girls don't do it to boys as much as boys do it to girls though do they?
no i know.
that is really sick though!
i certainly don't think so anyway.
i think that's really disgusting, they look silly!
i think it looks awful on boys!
i mean, it looks bad enough on girls but i mean
i know, it looks really cheap doesn't it?
yeah.
sort of like eh eh eh eh eh!
but i didn't that's why it's 
i'm a big slag!
that's why i 
ha!
i didn't tell anybody.
yeah.
at school.
you didn't tell anyone like, except joe then told stuart,mr !
really funny!
but i ca , honestly when pete phoned me up and like, i was getting so worried!
and he's going 
yeah but i swear you should have heard pete mouthing off at joe!
i know.
and because like, he didn't even know about the love bites!
cos scott goes to him cos, we were talking about flipping biting other people's nipples or something !
he did, he 
and 
he did actually bite me!
yeah.
that's right 
he did.
he's really strange 
well 
though!
it killed !
it really 
yeah.
hurt!
well scott does that 
i screamed!
all the time!
like he doesn't think he doing it but it really doesn't it?
i mean like keeh god me 
i went i went 
god!
i actually went arghhh you've gotta to!
yeah.
and and like then, like them two they're being , and they goes what's up?
i goes, nothing!
nothing!
you know, and it really hurt!
yeah.
but i mean but joe said they were actual bite marks and it wasn't 
yeah she did.
there wasn't actually bite marks, but he did bite me, but 
yeah.
they was like love bite marks.
mm.
and i think, so pete wasn't right and she wasn't right either.
yeah.
but
but like, he was really sounding off at joe!
and like, i mean he didn't know about that!
and scott goes oh it's a good job it's a good he didn't give her a love bite !
and pete's gone what, i didn't did i?
and like, everyone was just sat there going, oh my god drool on the floor man, you don't even know!
i've only got three!
but oh god!
i mean they weren't very bad or anything but 
mm.
i mean jesus christ!
you've gotta be sad not to notice have you?
i mean he's got about !
ah, but is he coming on saturday?
hasn't he?
he's
oh i asked him 
you've asked ?
i asked him whether he was and 
yeah.
he said that he wa he didn't know, he was either coming now or was going to tramps .
yeah.
cos someone said last night they were going to tramps but whether that was just like, they might be going to tramps or what.
this bra's too small, i'll have to get a new one!
but
i think he'll probably go to tramps to be quite honest.
i think 
mm.
prob , i think susan might be going actually.
mm.
and if it's a toss up between me and susan it's,yeah susan !
yeah.
you know?
but i i 
i can't believe it actually, i mean and no, no offense to you because you know i do , you know i don't mean this whatever 
no.
offensively.
mm.
but like he goes on on and on, don't he about how wonderful susan is and then you know he gets drunk and that's it isn't it?
but like, he even said it, he said to me when i was drunk and i, and it pissed me off a little bit actually cos like, he goes to me you know like i i was saying about it and he goes erm well she was the one who wanted it all casual and everything, and i said oh yeah.
and he goes he goes yeah well, i do it because she does it!
oh that's nice isn't it !
and i'll, i thought, i goes
go on then!
i'll i'll 
flattery's the way to a girl's heart!
no, i go, i i went, oh thanks very much!
i don't think he heard me!
yeah.
under your breath, something.
yeah and i went oh thanks!
well i didn't actually but he was arsed i just said oh thanks very much!
like 
yeah.
and went and sat in the corner of the bathroom and went, scowled at him for a bit!
yeah.
but you know.
oh gee
i dunno!hey?
i don't know!
i wasn't even gonna tell scott i hadn't come on!
but then he kept going on about how brilliant your party was gonna be and everything and i'm sat there thinking let's face it, if i come on between you know, because like, it would have been alright cos i'd be finished like, today or tomorrow and then it would have been like nice and ready for the party!
mm.
how do you do!
but like er 
but erm like, i'm putting out of bounds signs on my mum's and brother's.
yeah.
well i said to 
i mean i said to scott 
you can you come in here.
i said to scott look
as long as i'm not in here.
yeah.
three people !
i said, i said to scott
or you can go in the bathrooms.
like ooh can we have it in bath please?
cos you know what i mean that's as you know i, i can't even lie in a bath any more, it's not fair !
fiona was saying to me today at school, oh emma can i have a bit of your height please?
i was thinking, oh yeah i'll just chop my legs off at the knee shall i?
it's really bad 
but 
now!
like everyone's jealo ,a , like everyone's jealous of me at school and i wouldn't say i'm over tall!
but 
no.
like you know, loads of people are smaller than me!
mm.
i'm, i, you know i'm going off 
you know 
with one of the tallest!
yeah, you know those heeled shoes i've got?
i mean the heels have gotta be what two inches?
mm.
when i've got them on i'm taller than my dad!
can you believe that, i'm taller than my dad!
that is disgusting!
if i grow any more i'm just gonna flipping start chopping bits off myself!
stop eating !
yeah, but eating doesn't make any difference anyway does it?
i'd rather eat loads and at least then i won't look so lanky!
mm.
but actually i'm com quite quite pleased with my body at the moment, my legs are still a bit skinny but apart from that i'm doing okay i think?
i like my legs.
yeah.
you have you've got a really nice body anyway!
actually, me and joe were saying the other day, like ever erm who was it, someone said something about people being fat or whatever and someone's gone, oh yeah, like helena, you know jokingly and erm and me and joe both turned round and said yeah but she's not fat though is she, she's like more you're more wide aren't you?
yeah , i'm not, i'm not fat that way, i'm like that way.
you're sort , you're like your mum aren't you, you're like, wide?
mhm.
but like i don't know, i don't think there's anything wrong with it, i mean
but like, like, i mean andy, andy goes yeah, like, cos we were talking about that, and he goes, yeah you've got childbearing hips!
yeah.
he goes, unlike my sister who's got house-bearing hips !
and i go, no it's not in that 
yeah, i went shhh!
!
yeah, i felt, i feel a bit sorry for hannah actually cos
i do, i mean actually
she's alright, but
if she wa , if she wasn't hannah inside, she's got a dead nice body you know!
she's 
mm.
a really nice shape and everything!
yeah.
she's got nice hair.
she eats
but, she's got a bit dodgy eyes though!
mm.
she is a bit!
yeah.
oh,.
i feel really sorry for her actually 
cos i'm i know if i had it i'd just feel really awful if i had bo 
yeah i know!
same as me.
that's why i always hate that people tell me!
like, even if it meant writing them anonymous note, you know !
and like, you always think to yourself like you always think to yourself, yeah, you know i would tell someone and if it's what you would 
i can't!
.
you know i would, i'd just sort of 
if it was someone really close to me 
yeah.
i would.
i've told 
i'd say 
my brother he had it before.
and i have told my brother.
but like, your brother's alright, cos you go, oh you smelly bastard!
!
i go god, oh your breath stinks can't you?
mine probably does actually.
but it don't matter if you offend him does it?
no.
really?
but like, i could say to you, you know ah, you know, how are yo , you know, and i'd probably make a joke out of it!
god you stink!
i might say 
yeah 
oh you run out of deodorant or something, you know!
but you can't sort of turn round to hannah and say hannah, you've got b o !
i know it's like
you smell !
it's like fiona at school right he ,o , vicky and iona were having this ma , major crisis about whether to tell her she's got b o?
cos i don't know whether it's bo , but she just smells to quite honest!
and she's a really nice person, right, she's a bit portly
mm.
like, she's coloured right, but she's a bit portly and she just smells to be quite honest!
mm.
and she's got this smell,yo , it's her smell do you know 
yeah.
what i mean?
and like you da , can't tell it, like just walking around or whatever, if you're sitting right next to her and she leans over you
mm.
or when she's on the trampoline and you're 
yeah.
standing by the trampoline.
oh it's just horrific!
and everyone just goes
yeah.
you know, and it's 
it's like today at school 
really awful!
there's this girl right, you know lisa ?
yeah.
remember she was at ricky's party 
yeah.
well we've got this thing against her now cos she's flirting with ricky!
ricky and lucy have finished by the way.
oh have they?
finally!
yeah.
he, he was up town with this other girl, holding her hand walked past lucy and smiled at her!
that wa , that is sad!
and wha 
anyway lisa 's been flirting badly with ricky for ages!
i mean everyone knows she fancies him, but like, she's been getting really flirty!
so, like, we've got this thing about her, anyway, she was com and she was talking to fiona today and she was stood next to me, and like in a way, i was laughing at her but i felt so sorry for her cos she really, really stunk!
and like i wouldn't sa , she's not the sort of person who you'd think oh you know i mean like 
oh you smell!
yeah like, not being nasty but hannah to look at her you think you'd think, oh you know she might sort of bit bit pongy!
mm.
and like, lisa 's like, you know so 
yeah she's like, really clean cut isn't she?
she's like anyone isn't she?
she's like us sort of thing, you know?
i mean, here's me saying smelly bum, you know !
even, even, even no, but even more 
radiation!
than that, i mean i mean, i'm not being nasty but i mean look at our hairdo's!
i mean we're not exactly , well i'm so worried about you know
yeah.
how i look just at this second or anything!
yeah, but she does doesn't she?
i know, but like she says, she's hair and everything isn't she?
and all her make up and she got and she's really pretty really 
yeah.
isn't she?
she is actually.
pete said she pete said he'd give her one!
and i said, oh god i wouldn't!
and i to also admitted to him that i 
have yo , have yo 
female.
have you heard about the wallet fiasco?
no.
oh yes, i did!
yes.
shall i bring it on saturday?
and i just went mm!
yeah.
ha!
and i knew exactly what it was you they were talking about!
what she was talking about!
but do you know i went why?
why did i do that?
why am i 
honestly, they don't care!
ah!
but i 
knew exactly that he was talking about me and i thought what?
and i goes but i had to, i had to, i goes why?
and he goes well i've got some money in it!
i've got my visa card in it!
i goes why pete, really evilly!
mm.
and he went and he went well what do you think?
and i just went jesus!!
i was just so ooh!
i just think, oh no what am i gonna do now?
well just tell him no.
unless you want to?
couldn't really 
leave it.
i shouldn't imagine you 
no.
would?
no.
not really.
but clare is going like i told clare about it.
is she coming to the party?
i don't know.
it depends really does , cos joe said something about it depends if her boyfriend's got any money to come up or something or
no, her boyfriend is up
yeah.
but i think he's going home tomorrow.
is that joe?
i've no idea i'm just having a butchers.
having a butchers ay 
having a butchers!
shall i turn the light off so you can see?
no, it's okay i can see.
oh no!
shame of all shame, it's my brother and steve and sam across
and i'm just staring out the window !
see if they wave back.
yes, my brother is waving back even though he's !
oh!
god!
oh!
why is he
why is he hanging round steven again?
he must be sad character, and that's the only reason why!
sad character!
erm i tell you what it's dead windy outside!
it is 
yeah.
really, really windy!
that's why i've got my hair like this!
so have i.
while i was taking the dog out.
i put mine like this and that's why it hasn't stayed very well actually !
do you wanna poster?
what of?
u 2.
it's that one that used be up there.
is it black and white?
yeah.
yeah!
if you don't want it?
yeah, have it!
thanks.
i tell, i put i tell you where i put that where i used to have my erm my berlin wall poster.
oh you're taking that 
which 
down?
no i took it down cos like, it was behind the wardrobe wasn't it?
and i've put it in the middle of the wall.
it's been there ages, you have seen it.
oh yeah , yeah, yeah!
i thought you meant you were moving it from there.
no.
i'll put that up there.
that's great!
thanks.
and then i can take that down, that flipping marilyn steven, the really ugly just seventeen model!
have you seen that one?
i'm not joking, this must have had collars and right mm,!
!
oh dear!
but erm oh what was i gonna say?
oh they're all about malcolm bless you!
i couldn't believe clare though!
horny bloke!
cos she goes erm she goes i told her right and she goes well you're going to aren't you?
i goes what?
she goes, she goes well you might say that now but when you actually get there you'll really want to.
and er i goes you know, i was a bit, i was a bit shocked really, cos like
yeah.
clare's never told me that she'd done anything with stuart.
you er but when we were talking about this she told me that
yeah.
he'd asked her to go on the pill.
yeah.
and has she?
no.
she didn't want to!
so she's not going to.
but erm i'd, i don't but like chat to her cos she's, honestly she's such a nice person and like
mm.
she's one of them people who she might be a little bit like hard to talk to at first 
mm.
but if you like, just go absolutely crazy like i do!
cos she's used to me being crazy !
yeah.
like going ooh, ooh!, you know !
you know the way i do.
the way you do like.
and er ah, she'll be alright.
yeah, if i mean, if she comes in everyone'll be fine with her won't they?
i mean flipping two sips of cider and i'm anybodys!
have me in the bathroom if she wants me!
ooh er look!
but er
give her a blow job !
what do 
did you catch that one ?
do think they'll work it out?
oh dear, so like i say i'd you know chat, you know chat away to her because i 
yeah.
think, cos she really wants to come but like 
yeah.
i mean 
she's she's such a swot it's unbelievable !
dear oh me!
i mean, she reckons i'm a swot, and i reckon she's a swot, you know!
it's really funny!
but you know me!
i'll talk 
to anyone!
that's what er
even a cassette recorder!
hello darling!
but er 
ah dear!
i hope she does come actually cos like she's a real good laugh.
yeah.
you know, she's really nice!
and an anyway i wanna get her drunk and chop all her hair off so she's looks hideously ugly!
i know, her hair's gorgeous isn't it?
mm.
she's so pretty as well!
could not believe it!
rachel come up to me today, she's deadly serious, you know like lovely gorgeous ginger hair!
no.
you must of seen her round town.
well she's got the most gorgeous ginger hair!
really thick, quite long, bit longer than mine.
i don't know her but 
it is really nice and like, she's the most gorgeous looking girl you've seen in your life!
i've probably, i've probably seen her but
i've, i've talked about her haven't i?
mm.
about rachel.
i've heard the name.
and erm come up to me today and she goes have you got any scissors?
i goes no why?
oh it doesn't matter.
she walked to zeena, zeena got any scissors?
no why do you want them?
so, oh it doesn't matter.
oh come on rach , come on tell us, you know!
she's going i wanna cut my hair.
and she was deadly serious!
i'm going, no you're not, don't be stupid!
she gone, i've had enough of it, it's really getting me down!
i thought, and she was really depressed about it!
oh my god!
but like, mr really really bad like maths teacher, he goes erm he goes to , she goes to him the other day oh you're only picking on me cos i got ginger hair!
yeah, you're right i am!
and he was being really nasty!
and i thought, i was thinking god that is really, really nasty that is!
but like then er, she, she just turned round to him and she goes tell you what, i would really, really, love it if you woke up tomorrow and you had ginger hair, cos that'd really, really give you a dose of your own medicine!
then then er and he was going, oh don't be childish rachel and all this!
and, it's nothing to do with that!
and she goes, oh yeah, as if you'd know!
and like, he's really getting her down!
yeah.
i feel really sorry for her cos her hair is gorgeous!
i mean, i'd kill for hair that colour!
i think if you've got a really nice colour ging , you can have, either have a hideous colour ginger 
yeah.
or a really, really nice!
no, but she has got like, it's that it's dark ginger.
mm.
dark gingery-red, it's gorgeous!
like, it's not it's not ginger, it's sort of like auburn.
rusty.
rusty auburn.
mm.
oh it's gorgeous!
it's really nice!
well you see that you see, she probably looks at it every day and thinks, oh hideous!
yeah.
but, you see, you see it every day and think, ah that's so lovely!
ah that's so gorgeous!
yeah.
but it's everybody, everyone thinks they're ugly don't they?
i mean like
yeah.
you don't want what you've got do you?
no.
i wake up every morning and think, oh my god it's that acne!
mm.
oh,
got up.
oh look at my split ends!
you know, my hair's so 
i can hardly see, oh 
boring!
tell a lie i can see one spot on your face!
that one.
oh alright then, two now you've pointed them out.
let's have at me today.
i'm doing quite well actually, mine are clearing up a bit.
yeah, but you see, i'd look at you and i wouldn't even notice!
one, two, three, four, only four!
it's like, i look at you 
two.
and i would not even notice one spot!
not even the one in the middle of my forehead?
no!
i tell you what i noticed when you first walked in you got you got thick eyeliner on, that's what i noticed.
yeah.
before anything else.
thick eyeliner on the top of my eyes, i don't wear eyeliner on the bottom just in case you think i'm a tart!
oh dear!
oh i'm sad!
i must be bad!
you're talking to a tape recorder now em !
i know.
i've done it before!
oh gee, tomorrow right, mum has gone to me the other day oh, there's this woman at bridge she wants someone to baby-sit for her on wednesday nights.
do want, do you wanna, you interested?
and i said, yeah alright then, you know, fair enough.
so she goes well she reckons it'll be a good idea if you went up to meet the little lad, he's only six, he's called mark.
i thought oh alright, fair enough.
she's goes, oh she's gonna phone thursday night, she phoned me tonight oh i'll pick you up at half four is that alright?
i thought, yeah, fair enough she goes, we can go and pick him up from the child-minder and then er you can come for some tea and you'll be home by about half seven!
oh fucking hell!
no way!
i mean, cor blimey, i've never seen the woman or the kid before in my life!
mm.
i mean, i don't mind going up to their house, sitting down having a cup of tea and biscuit 
difficult situation or whatever! and saying oh yes, hello mark!
are you going to read me a story and show me your bedroom?
oh goodo right, well, better be off then,bye !
but like
she must be really picky if she's doing that!
i know!
but mum said like she's she's divorced so sh , she's forty she's got like a six year old kid and the kid is really brainy!
and i'm sort of thinking, oh my god, modern woman!
mm.
modern woman with modern brainy kid!
and that she's got 
and thinking oh my god this kid's gonna be better than me!
yeah, she's got this gentleman friend.
oh yeah.
he takes her out and spoils her rotten like!
and she wanted me to baby-sit last, like, last no, what day is it today?
thursday.
mm.
yeah , tonight.
and erm but like, she wasn't gonna be back till quarter past eleven!
i mean, i don't mind that but you know what my mum's like?
so er 
i wouldn't do it in the week.
i mean, i'd mean i'd do it, in a week 
yeah, that's what , that's what she said, the woman going well i suppose that's a bit late in the week really, she's got school the next day?
and mum just goes, yeah.
she goes, well i didn't know if you'd wanna do it so i just said that.
and you know er but she goes like, she's like, like she said to me, once you've done it once she'll expect you to do it again, and again!
and like, it's alright say like, once every so often but like once or twice 
a week or whatever in, like staying out late, cos that means i wouldn't be back till like, quarter to twelve!
and get ready for bed 
it's too much , yeah!
it's too much isn't it?
but like erm my mum was saying, you know she's like she's got a, definitely got a good job and like, the kids really sort of 
you get, are you alright?
comfortable?
yeah.
sh , he's really sort of like, dead brainy and goes to the child-minder and goes to school and whatever!
but like erm she said like, he's a really good kid.
well 
mm.
i mean well i thought to myself, god what a life!
i mean, i know it's not her fault but like, every wednesday she has all the people from the college bridge go to her house to play bridge.
i mean the kid's 
poor kid!
just sat there on the sofa!
i mean, okay, he goes to bed about, what, eight o'clock or whatever?
but like, i mean god, do you know i'd really hate that!
i mean, i used to hate it with like having flipping anyone come up to our house when i was little!
yeah.
i remember, i remember once
apparently his mum's hardly there!
because the baby-sitter she's got at the moment right she said she doesn't mind doing mondays, tuesdays and fridays as well as the weekends but she doesn't wanna do every day each week.
ma , how much does she go out?
i mean, god, the poor kid i feel really sorry for him!
yeah!
i mean ooh!
that's why she's asked me to do it, but like i said to mum you know, i'm not gonna say to her, oh yeah i'll do it whenever you want, i'll say like they're gonna do this extra course on wednesday nights and she said, like unless she could get a baby-sitter she couldn't go which is the reason i'm doing it.
so like
just say you'll do it wednesday night.
yeah say i can do it wednesday nights, apart from that, you know it's too bad sort of thing!
so i think i'm gonna change my nights this, of staying in to either mo , monday and wednesday or tuesday and wednesday something like that.
i don't know really!
but like, like erm that'd be quite good because if i go to someone else 's house like, you don't wanna be sort of like, messing about with all, all the stuff, you haven't got anything to mess about with, do your hair or whatever can you?
no.
mess around with your make up.
so i can get loads of homework done and erm like i can count that as one of my nights in.
mm.
so that'll be quite useful i reckon really as well as getting a bit of money.
well, oh my mum's having such a fit about like on our er, exam leads like er she goes to me this morning, like my da , her and my dad were talking about it she is saying, and she'll do it!
cos me 
yeah.
and my, my, me and my brother are gonna be off at the same time
yeah.
like be doing his a levels and that she's saying that she's gonna take both of our stereos, lock them in the, lock them in the shed all day, take 
mm.
the keys with her and take the er, plug off the telly so we've got nothing to occupy us!
and she's serious as well!
mm.
because we're both such weak willed people, honestly!
same as me.
i mean, i've got a, i've got a french homework that was due in today told mrs i'd left my book at home, i accidentally bought the wrong book!
so she goes, i want it first thing tomorrow morning, and i mean like this is talking like, we're talking major here!
mm.
and like i started doing it, i'll read it out in english i started writing it in french came to a word i didn't know and thought ah leave it!
and i've left it now!
mm.
so like i'll go in, half nine i'll get a drink, you know sit down, look out the window, see if scott's in, phone him up if he is say helloee darling!
ah, erm
by the way i'm not pregnant !
god this subject keeps coming up doesn't it?
i'm gonna 
oh!
get dead bored now!
whoever it is that's listening to our interesting conversation!
don't you reckon that'd be dead boring though, i mean i mean 
,
i know, but like, i thought 
i bet they're looking forward to this tape !
yeah but like think about it, first, i mean the first couple of tapes of people like saying oh yeah, so then we had sex, and then we gave him a blow job!
yeah but i mean
and then he licked me out while we're on the phone!
oh god !
emma, you sound so crude!
but i mean
the twelfth
of the third ninety two.
ninety two.
well done dear!
what time did you start recording this side of the tape?
twenty five past 
nine.
twenty five past!
god!
they're big tapes aren't they?
i thought it was only supposed to be forty five minutes long?
nine twenty five p m ready.
ready.
this is gonna get really tedious after a bit isn't it?
i know, it's gonna be totally boring isn't it?
er chatting
chatting with friends at home!
with friend.
i wonder who's gonna go through all these tapes?
there.
it doesn't say anywhere doesn't it?
is it gonna be university students or
hopefully !
by the way, i think you're sexy!
i hope you're not female?
i don't mind if you're female at all!
i'm not, i'm not, i'm not , i'm not quite like that!
i am!
er who spoke first?
i can't remember!
i think it was me.
no it wasn't it was me cos i was saying that if yo , if your pen didn't work.
oh, emma.
oh, i was the one saying if you're pen doesn't work and my name's emma dearest!
er student.
student.
anyway, what was i gonna say?
oh yeah, i reckon all grannies are gonna be taping this they're the only with loads of spare time, we're just doing this for a laugh!
mm.
but i mean
it's gonna be dead boring though isn't it?
listening to them complaining about the usual stuff!
yeah so i reckon whoever's doing this i, i bet whoever gets this tape, i bet there's fighting over this tape!
i bet there is cos no one else will talk 
yeah.
bj's or anything!
are you listening to that, then?
bj's !
oh god!
i think that's .
did a did erm anyone tell you about james's dad?
james?
you know james ?
his dad's called his dad's called barry.
yeah.
you must know james 's dad.
the one we were hiding from at the fair.
oh!
remember him?
no.
he goes, well anyway, he's this like, really really mad bloke!
he goes to er, ian and like, ian's gone to him, oh hello mr , you know, and he's gone ooh, don't call me mr , he's from wales you see!
he's not welsh 
ooh!
or anything!
yeah, he is, he's welsh.
i wouldn't put on an accent because they're cha , they're they're trying to well never mind!
oh okay.
who cares!
i'll put on my accent anyway.
thinking i'm welsh!
he goes oh, don't call me mr , call me b j!
ah no!
and like, there's 
it is, yeah!
and like, ian was just, cos he's like barry and ian was just sort of stood there going oh my god, i'm gonna laugh!
ah 
oh!
did i tell you whe , when i went to the opticians?
i've lost my 
ah!
shoes again!
he was the most unbelievable person i've ever met in my life!
oh!
oh yes, he was wasn't he?
oh god!
my brother went my brother went yesterday as well.
gotta have glasses?
well he could have some done.
yeah.
cos he, he couldn't read the bottom two lines.
oh yeah, that's good though, and i can't read the top two lines !
you know well what can you see with your left eye?
erm 
erm 
h
nothing!
ha ha ha !
oh!
ian's so funny!
but erm yeah.
i dunno where to take this next, shall i take it downstairs and yeah well, my half on this is stinted. quite interesting.
cos we all just sit there and watch telly and we don't talk!
we had a, we had a really goo , it's a pity you weren't here earlier actually cos we had a stu , a nice conversation about politics.
oh, my dad kept going shhh i'm trying to watch the football all the time!
and i was cos i had, i had a massive argument with vicky about party politics!
right, cos she's such a selfish conservative bitch !
mm.
yeah.
going well, i don't care why should we have to pay for all those poor people!
that can't keep jobs!
oh i put down clive!
oh he really makes me mad he does!
me an , me and natalie were having a real bad go at him!
sort of going just cos daddy'll sort you out then!
yeah!
oh god!
oh he drives me mad sometimes!
it like sh , i couldn't believe it she was she's so conservative!
she sat there going well why should we have to pay for poor people who can't be bothered to get jobs, they're so lazy!
oh yeah, like there's a load of 
and i like, i 
jobs going round!
honestly,
yeah!
i was going absolutely eppy this is in the middle of class, i was going eppy and she goes and i goes, oh yes just cos daddy's got a very nice car and you live in inkborough like this!
yeah.
and i was hon , i just went so mad!
and everyone in the whole class julian julian 
mm.
was going to me, hey helena calm down!
and i was going no i won't calm down !
and i was screaming by this time and miss goes oh be quiet everybody!
mm, yes you're hard, i'm really scared!
ma , it's like, it's like 
my dad this morning he woke me up by pulling me up by the hair, bashing my face into the pillow a couple of times, i just looked at, then go, and i looked at him
got a comb anywhere?
comb?
even if it's one of those tremmy pretend combs you get with a barbie doll, oh this'll do!
don't know what it is, but it'll do!
hope you haven't brushed anything pervy with this one!
pubes!
oh yes i'm always brushing my pubes!
oh, i know !
how did you know?
.
that's my pu , pube comb!
well you've gotta admit, it does look it does look like one of them sort of things !
have you, have you seen what pubes,?
yeah !
oh goodo !
erm, anyway, what was i saying?
oh yeah, and i just looked up from the pillow and went oh, watch me shiver!
in a very sarcastic voice !
oh did you see erm mary 
no.
whitehouse the other day?
no, i missed it , but your get on with it anyway!
ooh wasn't that weird it sprays at once!
i like this, it smells nice!
i think it smells awful actually!
ah, i think it smells really nice!
naomi always wears that.
can smell !
well at least i ain't got b o!
this is disgusting!
i did this top bottom up so that my dad wouldn't call me a tart as i walked out the house and i forgot to undo it again!
you're getting a bit prudish aren't you?
i know !
ah dear!
you know,touch my pen!
was there a minute ago wasn't it?
ah, here it is!
oh it's on the floor!
emma the hero finds it again!
oh dear!
love can i say !
what time you gotta be in?
i, i haven't actually got to be in at any time except i did say i'd be in at half nine.
oh!
oh, it's half nine now!
oh ha!
slap my thigh!
you look really worried though emma!
you look like you're about to rush home!
oh dear i must rush home because it's half past nine and i'm going to get told off 
ah !
for being late!
i've just missed red dwarf!
oh never mind!
oh oh oh go ho od!
what?
missed red dwarf!
never mind you see mister tape recorder person.
they're coming in ah !
i'm suffering a lot though!
you've caused us to miss red dwarf!
cos we just enjoy talking to you so much!
because you're such an interesting person!
i will do up my button again!
so you're dad won't call you a tart!
actually, he shouldn't be in.
listen, listen to your 
oh well!
lucky you're lucky, i'm not pregnant penny.
yeah !
right at the end of somewhere.
lucky i'm not pregnant powder case!
oh dear!
well are you going to leave that on?
no i'm turn it back.
gonna switch it off?
cheerio then darling!
cheerio then man!
oh dear!
bye!
sam shut up!
so this means i gotta walk home all on my little own-some?
pardon?
this means i gotta walk home all on my own-some?
yeah, well it'll be erm at little bit light anyway won't it?
what?
it'll be light.
light?
mm.
suppose.
it won't be dark!
yeah mum, i do know what light means !
actually!
what have you today?
what lessons?
mm.
graphics er maths, science english and r e.
what did you miss the other day?
when you was off?
.
oh, a few other things.
i've caught, i've caught up on most of it i've got to copy up some maths but i'll, i'll borrow someone's book this weekend.
cos i won't have any homework cos i did that homework last night.
what, for the weekend?
what?
no, but she won't give you two sets of homework other.
what the , maths homework you mean?
yeah.
so i'll be able to borrow somebody's book and copy that.
it's only algebra anyway!
the stuff i was doing last night.
shouldn't be too bad.
is joanne and emma coming to sleep on saturday night?
yeah.
where are you going to sleep?
down there in the front room.
well, we might as well i mean it's just easiest place really.
and that yo can keep the dog and cat upstairs a bit can't we?
if he'll go.
if he'll go.
he won't be very happy if everybody's down here and he's up there!
will he?
it's .
i know, but he always sits on emma and
!
don't she like it?
used to it.
i mean, i don't mind it if he comes and sits by me well they're not used to him you see.
they're not used to little sammy!
shush up!
wimps.
what?
wimps.
no wimps?
oh dear!
i nearly forgot how old you are when i was putting you in the book.
i put forty two.
i'm not quite forty two yet!
soon!
i will be.
but not yet!
pardon me boy da doo dee doo doo doo .
are you going into town then tomorrow?
or 
to 
not?
tomorrow?
yeah.
dunno.
mm,!
haven't made up my mind yet !
i never make up my mind until about
what about?
half twelve tonight.
what about shrimpy, have they got over his tantrums?
oh i think so.
he, he's just he picks someone to have a go at!
so he's been having at 
yeah.
pete has he?
he's been having a go at pete.
and it's a bit, it's a bit nasty of him really cos when, like, all this thing was with emma and everything pete was the one that was really nice to him!
mm.
he's always taking it out on them i noticed!
yeah.
what we having for tea?
chicken.
i can see it's chicken !
chicken what?
chicken and er rice.
well, what we normally have you know, in the sauce and that.
yeah.
i wouldn't know the posh name!
chicken chasseur.
if you like!
emma was the happiest i've seen her in about two weeks!
she was er 
she said her brother wasn't getting on didn't she?
yeah.
when she came to the door and i i didn't know whether to invite her in or not like i went come in and,an she like, looked at me and i goes,don't ask !
well it wouldn't matter if they were ?
what?
it wasn't it was a bit strange, a bit naughty!
well erm i think it's dead interesting actually!
oh!
something in a bit of sex.
different things, and i remember the woman came round the other day about drinking whisky.
on a sunday she came!
mind you, i mean, we got no whisky anyway so i said she's looking for somebody who erm drinks at erm a spot of whisky.
i says, oh sorry you've come we don't drink whisky.
she says, not even at christmas?
i says no.
shouldn't.
which we don't do we?
we don't go in for spirits though do we?
no.
she wanted to see dad.
she should have gone to see uncle alan he's and alcy 
er
she'll go and drink shri er, not drink shrimpy!
er go and see shrimpy.
does he drink like that?
he's always drinking whisky!
ha!
that'll rot his innards then!
aha.
oh dave let me!
got a letter david?
have you got a letter?
yeah.
can i open this one?
no!
have you got two letters?
yeah, but they're, they're both from the same place though mum.
what is it from?
is it from nottingham?
cheltenham.
not bristol then?
is it?
oh it is 
apparently that's all that's from there actually.
there, in that that picasse or whatever it's called!
oh dear!
rejected.
this is nothing!
oh, it is as well!
rejected?
yeah.
oh!
oh that's a shame!
that's the only one you've had!
yeah.
oh!
oh!
that's where you wanted to go, woburn.
oh well!
never mind!
never mind!
try and get in bristol somewhere.
make it weird is that what 
no this is from 
you said?
no this is from er sunderland.
the fourteenth place 
b a!
from at least two g c s e's g c e o level.
you get a b a from that mum!
b a honours degree, yeah.
flipping hell!
mm!
bit of yes?
my brother a b a, yes!
and i spent ages !
that's a shame!
wonder why that was?
probably got too many people.
probably filled the course already.
yeah.
and it is a popular place.
probably thought hoh oh, we're not having him!
oh no!
hoh oh no!
a from lincoln no !
can't have that!
fourteen points.
that's a shame weren't it?
yeah but
mind you, bristol's popular isn't it?
yeah.
i'll just wait to see what turns up.
don't that dog ever shut up!
oh shut up!
alright!
i do to.
oh!
well that's a disappointing isn't it?
yeah, well you ca 
you're bound to get in one of them somewhere.
but all the poly's have accepted me still 
who?
haven't heard from bristol 
bristol , bristol 
yeah.
and what's that one what came?
what?
this one?
er, fourteen points erm
about three d's this.
no.
the two er
ah yes, you see, that's sunderland i mean that's up in the
james goes there.
back country isn't it?
but, the accommodation will be cheaper.
yes i know, but it's such a long way to get up there!isn't it?
i mean, he's not exactly travelling everyday is he?
well no, but you still got to pay to get up there and get back on !
see what i mean.
i told you it'd be chicken chasseur!
erh 
you're dead disappointed aren't you mum ?
i liked that one!.
ha ha ha !
mind you wou , oh you couldn't!
what?
well i mean if, if it was full and they didn't all get the
oh yeah, if erm
you know, qualifications for it, like wha , what would happen then?
well on the a lot of places like, they advertise in papers and stuff for the places that are still open, places that are still open.
like, and you phone up and you can get in.
well i mean, it's not necessarily to say that you know, that they
mm.
are all going to get it is it?
no.
i knew that one as soon as i saw that it was from that is was a reject one.
well you got that other one from didn't you?
i thought what was that er south , southampton or portsmouth or something?
and portsmouth 
portsmouth 
wa was straight from picasse but picasse don't necessarily send out just depends on whether the poly's send out to them as well.
but 
oh!
they sent me erm or sent me a load a load of material with it.
i really wish that they wouldn't do that though!
oh dear!
pasties!
you, you're worried about it than david is!
well, it would've been handy wouldn't it?some of them.
are you making as much noise as possible?
yeah.
i can't make up all the time .
mind you, bristol, i mean that's not far.
that
no.
you know, if you
and york isn't.
i suppose it's a mile round trip.
twenty five pound up on the train, return!
return.
so thirty five.
that's really clear !
as well!
!
god this dog is !
well i hope bristol accept me now.
why who have you got?
you got 
sam!
just york and aberystwyth.
hull.
oh, aberystwyth yeah.
but this is this is one of the most popular ones in the country so 
what nottingham?
yeah.
it's got very high arts intake as well.
very high?
arts intake.
oh!
like you know english, sociology and all that.
oh!
so that'll be why it's full then?
yeah.
you were you were late in sending it weren't you?
and that's because you were going to go .
you might be, get a place.
if you buck your ideas up!
and get a with that in.
what's that supposed to mean?
dog!
what's that supposed to mean?
you better get your exams!
yeah.
but buck your ideas up?
buck your ideas up?
yeah.
i mean sort yourself out and
but i am sorted out!
get on with it!
instead of messing about!
but mum, he don't do much messing about does he?
i didn't ask you!
he was messing about yesterday morning!
what?
look at him i'm .
give him a loaning 
it's only for three months mum!
well
when is it?
next week.
next week.
gizzmo keeps trying to persuade me to go with her but i don't really want to.
no i shouldn't worry 
cos er , she's gotta go cos her brother's in it.
shouldn't you?
i thought about asking actually.
her brother's knuckles oh,he's huge!
he's only about five foot !
a b and a c that is.
yeah, but a, it says a two i mean, if you get three then you can get nottingham couldn't 
yeah.
you?
yeah.
well three c's must be over the points then.
right
er 
not like that feller yesterday said that really they can er they can refuse if you get
well yeah!
a di difference of their point stipulation
oh, yeah.
and er their gra , grade stipulation so even if you got three a's they can still refuse you.
he said that he said it doesn't happen in york, but it has happened in some places you know.
i could understand them refusing you if they'd asked for say, a b in english and c in something else
yes.
and you got d in english and d in so , although it may not be the point, or c.
yes.
because then you you wouldn't certainly up, be up to the standard would you?
in that particular 
no.
mm.
er particular thing.
but i suppose espec , like if you got really really good grades you'd be different to the group.
you know, say if they wanted to get you three c's and you got three a's shut up sam!
you could be lot a lot different to the group.
the higher standard?
yeah.
mm.
which might make it more difficult to teach.
yeah, i suppose it would.
true!
would it make an effect?
mm.
i suppose i, i better go and get hair done.
yes, you'd better had, it's twenty
how are you then chicken?
okey doke groovy!
seen emma?
well, this morning.
oh!
is that alright?
yes.
oh!
didn't walk home with me cos i had to go i was and wa , was going to the other side.
how come the had the school photo in it?
was it?
mu mine !
i've got a bad habit of shouting like that today.
like in science today i goes oh for god!
!
what ?
i got into
i'll show you 
what?
i'm only saying thank you.
i know!
this is really good!
doo doo and i took the best .
are we going up to york tonight?
yeah.
we've got, we're going, ooh together now.
but as long as we've got can't enjoy myself, can't even have a fag, might as well have, not be going!
shouldn't have to worry cos she's 
shhh!
shh, oh don't else a man might come in .
like, oh yeah i know he means !
and dad goes, i'm i think i might only just have orange juice!
besides , i mean i can't have a fag!
i goes, can't i just have two on a friday?
no you can't!, might as well not bother going then mighten i!
cos anyway!
especially if you can't have a fag!
is she, you know, really bounced up about it?
no, she just like, cos he's going down the club.
from high school kids, you know?
so i might make a trip to .
mm.
he's just too daft, cos he won't even let her have two!
she hasn't had any since tuesday!
no, she hasn't had any since tuesday.
she's doing well then?
mm.
she did be , better than she did.
yeah, but dad'll .
ah!
ah that's it, run back and tell everybody, run run!
ah, like she always does!
yeah well i don't want gary , she's .
she must be!
instead of going like quarter past, goes oh go down, let's get boring now, yeah yeah!
i said, oh go a bit later then, i goes cos i'll make it quarter past seven i'm not sitting round for half an hour, not like kiddos 
oh dear!
cos cos my mum and dad won't be able to get that cos my dad's working.
well the outing's in that area the next day.
ha!stay, stay, stay with ah haaa !
oh, had an exciting date at school today then?
no.
i rushed last night, i did two of my geographies i did one of them this dinner time, and other he didn't ask for my book in!
couldn't believe it!
ha!
course, that was didn't want to come and she said oh they asked for it in so i just pretended i didn't i'd handed mine in and didn't say anything like, you know in ca like, cos i had to go and get them yesterday.
.flipping johnnie is coming tomorrow!
and his laugh!
tomorrow?
thought he was coming sunday?
no, tomorrow.
between two and four , cos i've got and do the papers tomorrow afternoon, they don't come till four, i do the papers about half four to half go out, you know quarter past five 
still having over to me 
i'm going out 
tomorrow night though aren't you?
yeah, i'm coming down yours about half seven.
so you won't see him anyway.
maybe i'll come nearer two.
mm.
and then it'll look as if i've hardly been .
about half seven .
is she pissed off ?
we've gotta be going fairly early anyway.
she goes to me, oh how you getting to well i was hoping like, you'd take me, she goes, oh yes?
that's a surprise!
and i goes will you?
he goes yeah alright then.
gonna take us down the square.
last night we were shopping, i wanted to go and get something cos i said to her right can you ?
can i spent all my money!
yeah.
and he goes yeah alright then.
what's wrong?
i goes, can you go and get and some beers, yeah cos otherwise, i should, you know you said lend us a pound, he goes yeah, i goes well you can yo he goes not a pound, one pound four p!
i goes, well have .
he goes yeah alright then.
so he got me last nights, we're gonna have to go tomorrow so we'll have to go tonight now, gotta tell !
speak up a bit!
what for?
gotta get near the microphone!
oh, heard about that!
you're not putting that on!
why not?
joe, don't switch it off!
yeah, well it's embarrassing!
no, it isn't!
should of heard what me and emma were talking about last night !
what?
.
anyway
and everything else!
is that all it is jus , that's how he give you?
yeah.
emma wants one.
and all the tapes, and all the batteries and everything.
yeah.
anyway so we're adding up
just don't think about it, i've got used to it now you know, so i'm not shy.
so you know he got something so he went, he went, he went, he went i think you give me, he goes, not one pound four, it's one pound it's gone up innit?
i said oh yeah!
one thirteen.
so no!
they're not!
it was one it was one it was one eighteen, with the matches and everything so the matches 
where from?
the matches are,, the matches are eight p, they always have been.
oh yeah.
and then sti they've gone up to one ten now for .
mm!
so now he'll get all the drink tomorrow.
are a bit worse he said you know get some women.
i don't know whether clare's coming or not.
oh, why not?
because well she's got a load of work to do, she's such a swot it's unbelievable!
and her boyfriend's down and he's staying till sunday.
well why can't he come round here?
what else are they gonna do?
i dunno but, she's gonna phone me up anyway.
if she's coming, she's coming, if she's not, she's not!
mm.
oh good!
but i'm not , i'm not bothered either way really!
yeah, i'm going to pat's on tuesday.
what for?
well,bozz at school had some free tickets the music's usually twot when you're given free tickets!
on er, this something of luxembourg, i dunno,so 
oh!
duke of luxembourg.
some crappy thing, you know!
about .
no.
some crappy music thing!
yeah..
anyway, so
i think our
well 
drama teacher might be in that!
well, he's given me a ticket and he's gonna give , loads of us going, there's about ten of us!
so we'll go, gonna go there for about seven, it starts at half seven come home that night.
bit of doss you know!
oh!
well we're get 
you got 
up town about seven i'll see if bozz's mum can take us and cathy's dad can bring us back cos dad's at work.
you know, we can walk round town a bit, you know and ahem!
yeah,that's , have another 
yes,, yes, that's right.
don't tear my shirt, oh sorry !
i like that.
i get a real erm i've gotta take the dog out.
right.
look at my cold sores!
ta they're not, they're not too bad actually.
they are!
they're massive!
i've stuck a load of perfume on them!
i've run out of bloody cold sore lotion haven't i?
what's this all in aid of anyway?
it's a survey.
you taking ?
you're not taking it to my house!
why not?
no way!
why?
no way!
why not?
no way!
why?
cos .
no way you're taking it to my house!
i'll tell you to get knotted!
it's my house, you've got no permission!
did you 
well we're not gonna be doing anything!
well like, upstairs!
well i'm not gonna take it round, why?
it's only gonna downstairs in the living room!
.
right i'll, i'll ju ju i'll just pretend i'm listening to it.
i'll take the things with me.
i'll just pretend i'm listening to it and i'll just put it on the side and just the switch the thing on they'll never know the difference.
the answer is so is he paying you?
about twenty five pound.
do you?
you kidding me or what?
no.
why didn't he come to my house for?
oh!
honestly?
yeah!
and how long you gotta do it for?
a week.
barry's so mad!
how many tapes you got?
twenty.
no way, man!
i wanna do it!
tell him to come to my house next time!
twenty five quid for doing that!
trust you to in!
you don't have to fill all the tapes either!
trust you lot to come up .
he just, he just wants to go into my house.
trust you to be number one!
you cow!
aha!
that isn't fair!
i want money, i've, you re get blooming all that money a blooming week anyway, don't you!
it's only a voucher from marks and sparks.
oh.
twenty five pounds worth.
what you gonna get at?
dunno,something for my mum .
just for starters i should think.
na , ahh!
can't talk now i gotta stinging armpits!
what you at er you know that razor i've got?
well i thought, well i can't be bothered to get , so i got it and i went chee chee!
yeah, i sprayed my arms yesterday and i went
takes all the ski , like top layer of skin off 
yeah.
i was thinking, god, did it sting this morning?
well, i'm kee , keep forgetting every so often and 
mm.
like it stings a bit.
you ought to get like erm soft and gentle it doesn't sting.
it's not that though, it's cos you're not supposed to use it under your eyes, it's a flipping face shaver!
oh, no, but i mean, it don't make any difference!
yeah 
you 
but i like that
but if you use that soft and gentle it doesn't hurt anyway.
do you know what shrimpy's decided to buy me for my birthday?
no.
immac to do my back of my neck!
i said, you do it, you don't, no way are you getting whisky from france!
oh !
wasn't me , best impressed!
so it is funny!
it wasn't funny!
and all he kept doing was twisting my arm last night, and my leg bummer!
ahhh !
no don't wanna put my name down!
you've gotta have name, goes on the tape, you big girl!
i thought she said it was erm emma said that it was
it's anonymous.
well who's in that!
that's not very anonymous is it ?
yeah, but thi this, right just gets shoved with the tapes.
like, they don't know who it is i it's not, after they've taken it away it's no connection to me whatsoever, they don't where i'm 
do that.
from at all.
yeah, but you've got my name down there!
what, what shall i put your accent, as redditch?
mm.
you put redditch for whoever that was.
emma?
yeah.
who else put in, what you?
what's that say at the bottom bit?
friend no .
i'm not , put no friend of yours in that box!
hello darling,
is that tape six?
i'm on tape six am i?
no.
no, you're on, you're on that's only tape one side b.
oh!
that's all i've got onto so far!
you're, you're the 
sixth person on the side.
yeah, well you weren't here were you!
i don't wanna do it anyway!
me and emma used up a whole side yesterday just us two talking!
i thought you weren't coming out last night?
i wasn't!
she came round here!
tut ha !
here's me, farting around with bloody shrimpy and andrew!
da doo doo doo .
ah, i was so angry , i was, he had my arm right, i forced, pushed him back it was, like, behind my back so i lent back thinking oh he'll give me his arms then anyway old flipping hag came in didn't she!
and i went, ha ha, just turn over the cassette!
she called me an old snout , flipping thing is right, like thing like the noise that i've
yeah.
i was going making like the sound was down he's singing this song and then he went and pam comes in, and she, i mean how comes then he knows her?
god, who is it the the what's it, paediatric or whatever it was?
somebody like that, you know some doctor 
is at the door!
who the bloody hell was that she goes?
i went out, come back in to ask and there was shrimpy, me and andrew, me and andrew come in i left the door open cav goes shut the door!
i said, oh is pat coming in?
he said, i don't bloody care!
i went ha ha!
you stupid cow!
i really ache!
go on!
i hate 
right.
pam!
i'm scared now!
is it dark out!
yeah.
good!
right, do you wanna ah, walk go and take the dog?
it's not my turn, it's david's 
to the shops.
turn!
yeah.
why can't david do it!
because, because, i'm going out!
oh please helena will you take him for me?
oh, he's such a waster, he's unbelievable!
come on then, i'll take it outside with me.
give it to sam in his mouth !
yeah you should have told me i would have bought them out with me if you'd said.
i didn't realise did i!
shall we have one?
sam, come on boy!
will you?
don't be too big!shhh!
ah dear!
be, he's being all really nice to me at moment, he's really creeping to me!
yeah, well he isn't being nice to me!
hasn't he?
no!
twisting my arm, twisting my leg!
telling me i'm a stupid bitch and all this lot!
fucking turds and all !
wait for the dog.
i feel a right bozo 
oh, the dog's having a shit!
ah it was really funny though!
like, me and emma last night, honestly the first, about five minutes, like we were all, both going mm, yeah, er, ah, and then we just thought oh fuck this for an idea !
and we just said absolutely anything!
we was talking about the love bite pete gave me and everything!
yeah.
said, like she thought she was pregnant!
like me, i was a, how did she ge has she?
must have done!
ergh ahh so when was this then?
oh didn't you know?
what, has she done it with scott?
what?
you on about emma here?
yeah.
she's pregnant ?
yeah.
didn't you know?
she'd done it with scott.
no, when did she do it with scott?
didn't you know she thought she was pregnant?
no.
oh piss!
ah, don't say anything!
i thought, cos you said down there you said in my house you said something about being pregnant.
no i never!
yes you did!
no i never!
oh i thought you knew?
have they?
i've really put my foot in it now haven't i?
no,whe , when did she do it with scott then?
i don't know but they must of done it sometime.
it weren't when, the other when we got all pissed?
no, but i mean
why's she think she's pregnant then?
i mean, didn't they use anything for
yeah!
but she well she didn't, i mean she didn't tell me the intimate details or anything i don't even know whether she has, she wo , she might have ju ge , been getting over dramatic or something!
but she but her period was a week and half late and she started well panicking!
yeah, well she 
and you know , you know when we thought, yeah well she'd, she'd just come on when she came down to my house and she was really, really, really in a happy mood!
and er you know, you know when we saw them two walking
yeah.
the other day?
that was what she was upset about she thought, oh dear,scotty's a going to be a daddy !
fucking hell,!
i hope she hadn't done it that saturday when we all were outside and we watching
she might not have done it, done it but like she might have 
like 
like yeah.
cos you never know, i mean andrew wipe spunk all over somebody, you know!
yeah, i i should think she like she's done some done naughty things 
well we all do though 
and, yeah
if she's given him a blow job, i mean
but i mean, she's probably done something like that and she's just got over dramatic about it!
guess what she's said she's gonna write to go on the pill!
did she?
well not to me !
she did and she says, she goes, i wanna go on the pill while i've got the courage!
but i don't think i can rely on myself to take them everyday!
if you was there you could take them, too pissed i should think!
probably!
like a hangover the next day!
fucking emma in a minute!
but don't say anything cos i don't know!
cos she, she said it to me cos she was on such a high you see cos she'd just come on, didn't you see her last night?
no i didn't because you 
oh!
stayed and andy's and we'd just gone over to the shops and .
but er yeah.
but, you see, she was on a real pardon me!
a real big high about it, she'll probably tell you.
but she 
i know!
probably didn't wanna tell you in front of hannah and everything !
well she rushed up today , she hugged me and ha hugged hannah , and then 
yeah, well that's it's so happy about.
hu hugged er hannah !
can you just imagine though, hugging andrew, his face!
oh my god!
oh no!
she said , i live at , i'm the best!
oh she thought i was pregnant.
where's the dog gone ?
wait 
he's down the bottom.
wait here, i'll catch up with him.
ah there he is!
but er but er yeah, so but like, she's been saying to me cos she's been thinking about whether she is or not she er she's been like like everywhere there's babys and prams and everywhe , on the telly and everything,do you know what i mean ?
it's been really bad actually and er
yeah, but unless she'd done it with him she wouldn't be panicking that much!
no.
i bet she has.
i mean, and she really known him for six months you know?
yeah.
ah dear!
so that was a bit of a giggle!
so do you 
what?
think clare will come?
i don't, i doubt it, i don't think so.
ah ah oh!
pity, emma's decided she's bringing a camera now and she reckons he bringing his!
and i said no fucking way you'll get any pictures of me having a bang!
and andrew goes oh, is this going to be let joanne everybody with a picture!
i've
well it's gonna be really bad because i'm gonna be doing this and taking pictures!
you're not doing it at the party?
yeah!
oh god i'll be so pissed!
well so!
wahhh 
i'll do it, i'll do it 
you'll be doing it while we're going to sleep.
no way, when we all lie down
fucking hell are you, no!
picking up all the juicy gossip around here, you're not doing that then!
no, i won't do it then i'll do it i'll do it in the early evening when no one 's too drunk.
then a bit later, but not well don't do it when we are gonna go to sleep because cos we end ups tal talking about who's dad's got the biggest plonker!
is your, is your dog still a virgin?
i know.
like, you know what, my dog's still a virgin !
virgin !
i always say, you're drunk that night.
so they all go and all.
are they?
tonight and tomorrow.
oh jesus!
andy's getting eight cans of strongbow three for tonight and five for tomorrow.
i said i'd bottle of wine off my dad just for us three, that's just for us three.
oh yeah, of course!
you know.
and then er we'll have that .
you gotta ask your dad, remember, for a bottle.
no, cos a i won't be drinking it anyway it's only gonna you and emma that's drinking it!
yes, i know!
you just ask him for one!
you're not gonna have a bottle each!
i had a bottle and i was absolutely blabbing!
and i threw up, that's how strong it is joe!
oh i'll have my dad's then, she can have your dad's.
no,ha , i mean, joe like, you won't be able to handle a bottle each on top of all that other stuff!
yeah, i wannoo 
ya ha , joanne you're going to die of alcohol poisoning !
you're only selfish!
i'm sure you're mum and dad have got a lot!
oh john, he's not that close for god's sake!
flipping cold !
ooh it's not come here sam!
it's alright leave it.
oh god's it cold!
that much perfume i've put on my cold sores,.
he's gone..
so will i !
and then you're dead if you undo them there !
but
er
oh we'll forget he's !
you're so nasty for getting his bit !
what?
he's a miserable sod!
well he couldn't help being a miserable sod,he looks a right miserable sod !
no!
he's not a miserable sod.
he probably just forgot.
i'll bring my matches when i like take the dog in i'll nip upstairs and say i've gotta get something and i'll just grab my matches out of there in case he's lost them or something!
like he probably would do!
in my book i'm gonna have to write down mark, and put in brackets all the way through he's called shrimpy.
m
out in a minute,changed.
quick 
what?
put a tape on 
it's like m i five or something in here .
don't, no not not that 
i don't believe you i swear the tape.
what?
we ain't got a tape.
i can fill it in for .
it's a different tape number.
i know.
er fill that in.
oh sugar, i've gotta start filling all these in now.
do you think that's right?
thirteenth of the third ninety two.
what time?
five past seven.
seven.
redditch eh eh eh eh 
visiting friends.
who spoke first?
me wasn't it?
yeah.
i don't have to fill it in again.
once i've filled it in once in the book
mm.
right they know who it is.
yeah you only need to write their details on the first page in which they appear.
go on then, put it back.
otherwise.
do you think i ought to fill andy in quickly?
he'll be the next in.
yeah he will won't he?
this lot'll be shrimp and he don't matter.
andy insurance clerk age?
nineteen.
nineteen now redditch
he doesn't call himself a clerk though.
what?friend 
i'll tell him you're a friend, he won't believe that.
oh thanks.
according to you i've got no friends.
exactly.
oh thanks jo.
what's the point in lying?
can't find my pocket .
helen nobody's coming.
what?
i can't get it in my pocket.
do you want a piece of pasta?
you can't alright and!
what you done?
i across the to get some and ended on my bollocks.
oh that's nice.
that's the last time i 
no it isn't.
you do it all the time.
that that smarts.
that's not gonna do much.
do you want a band-aid?
i've got a split sac.
i've got one testicle down here somewhere and the other one's still embedded in bedroom.
what d what did you land on?bed?
was it you who went bloody hell?
one of those cab yeah it was one of those 
it was really loud.
it was one of those cabin beds.
and erm the rim was like about that thin.
mm.
and that split my
mm.
nice.
not nice.
ha!ha.
mm?
for a long time.
this special what was it called again?
it says on it somewhere doesn't it?
dynamike 
dynamike 
how embarrassing, is that.
you go smack, straight on them.
yeah then i get a drill with a wire brush on it and go bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
out.
okay.
yes alright then.
that was my mother's suggestion for a bog roll
oh.
sit on a drill with a wire brush on it.
works wonders.
nice.
scratch.
erm what drink you getting anyway?
i was gonna get well i'm contemplating but i'm either getting four cans of strongbow and a bottle or just eight cans of strongbow.
for tomorrow?
or today?
well some are for tonight as well.
well you know what'll happen
if you get the that'll all be gone by tonight.
no that'll go, that'll go right through tomorrow.
oh.
yeah, that bppppprrrrrr 
is that all you're having for tomorrow?
what?
to myself
oh.
oh, right.
there, you've recovered now.
er can.
ugh i don't know how you can drink the stuff, it's ugh.
strongbow?
mm.
it's n it's not ugh.
it's cider.
it's ugh.
i prefer tesco's own myself.
oh i'm not buying that, cos it's not strong enough for me .
oh you man.
it depends if you get the strong stuff you dipstick.
i don't care what you do with my dipstick.
but i am 
don't 
drinking lots of cider.
don't you go to band rehearsal any more?
i thought you'd be at band last night.
well i was supposed to be but erm every single time they arrange it and they either tell me the wrong da well they told me the wrong day last week cos, they told me tuesd they told me it was thursday when it, when it was actually tuesday when i was getting pissed at scott's house so erm it was too late by then.
then they said erm there's one on sunday, oh no there isn't.
and this 
what do you mean we didn't get pissed at scott's at all.
and this
didn't we?
yes we did.
it was birthday last tuesday.
was it?
oh we weren't pissed.
merry.
you two were, i wasn't.
i was not was i?
i was .
a little bit.
i wasn't .
i was .
you couldn't see.
i couldn't.
i was not at all.
i could just about hear carter in the far reaches of my mind.
but erm 
he was i was fine.
course helena mrs hold my drink, not that i get a hangover every single time or anything.
hangovers 
i don't!
you do!
what is a hangover?
not after that i didn't.
what's a hangover?
shut up andy else you'll get a punch in the face.
i'm just going to 
i bought my long sleeved carter top today.
what?
oh yeah.
why aren't you wearing it?
i had to buy another long sleev no i well it's, it's a special purchase for tomorrow.
what's this?
oh thanks and 
my sl , my long sleeved carter top.
for my ace party.
go and get it then.
no.
we 
well i want, i wanna wear my and i can't have it till my birthday.
i'm gonna be really annoying, i'm gonna cut my jeans off half way down the shin.
no you're not!
no.
i am.
you're not cos you're gonna look a twat.
well i am a twat.
can, can i can i feel your leg ?
go on please?
easy access and.
what do you want?
you've got a choi you've got a choice of three.
i'll have them all.
bit tired then?
yeah well i didn't get up, didn't get up 
where's shrimpy?
didn't get up until seven.
oh.
course shrimpy said i'm gonna go and get you some matches, so what does he forget?
you've got it
matches.
i remembered everything else i wanted.
oh it was so funny at work today, greg fell off his chair.
packet of condoms fell out of his pocket 
and they were ripped .
ah no he was, he, he wouldn't sit on his chair cos he'd just called me an arsehole and i goes oh sit down greg!
i said sit down gregory and shut up.
so he went to sit down but his chair weren't there.
all i saw were this pair of legs sticking over the desk and him going aaaaagh!
and his condoms 
and he got up and then one of the girls said hi greg dropped your johnnies.
i've never seen anyone go so red in my life.
how old's he?
twenty three.
he's married.
well, so?
he got married si what three months ago.
maybe he doesn't want any children yet.
he we he went redder than that.
redder than that?
is that your mum happy?
i in the bath.
i walked in i, i had to lock the door with the penny, walked in, got the bog roll
do you realize you haven't called for emma?
well done.
oh what cos that'll be alright won't it?
it'll be alright.
scott come round and she'll meet us down here.
yeah.
er?
oh well
well when er when them two, when them lot go and get the stuff 
up above the streets and houses rainbow's flying high.
everyone can see them flying in the sk oh did you see the rainbow today?
no.
it was about what, four o'clock i went over tesco's
did i see the rainbow?
i was in it.
it was abs shut up, it was absolutely massive.
what, in the rain?
in the rain, yes.
absolutely massive.
so was i.
absolutely massive it was.
cos i had to walk home from school today.
by tesco's it was it was coming out the field.
goes let's 
ah!
rush over to see if we can find the pot of gold.
well andy is erm general errand boy for at the moment
mm.
and
what's your actual job?
what's my job title?
yeah.
is claims sorry insurance claims correspondent.
insurance clerk.
no, not clerk.
oh.
i'm not a clerk thank you.
no i'm a claim correspondent.
well if someone asks you what we, what you do 
i deal with claims.
oh.
deal with insurance claims.
i say whether or not we're gonna pay them.
which is a fairly important job but i get paid shit.
so there.
it's only to five thousand pound and.
eh?
it's only up to five thousand pound.
only what?
you only 
you can only do claims to five thousand pound can't you?
ten thousand.
that's a 
ha it's gone up!
no it ain't.
it was, it's five thousand without manager authorization.
how much do you get paid a year?
just to be nosy like, you know.
six thousand.
is that all?
so you can give away more than they, they gi than they pay you ?
for what i do my, my pay is shit.
pardon ?
really.
i'd tell them where to go.
well shrimpy's on twice as much as i am.
you can't tell anything when you've 
well all he 
got a car.
and anyway all he does is spring inspect springs.
and people wonder why i've got no money.
mm.
people why, wonder why i've got no money.
become a spring inspector.
oh that sounds really good.
oh god, is hannah singing?
tell her to sit on that and swivel three times.
better make sure she wiped her arse properly first.
oh, oh dear oh dear .
what ?
come here.
what ?
you dumb fat cow.
don't be so nasty to your mum.
oh dear oh dear 
what?
when he finds out.
he'll probably try and wrestle it away from me but
it's no good quibbling.
i wanna be famous.
i'll ask, i'll i'll ask h i'll tell him afterwards
i wanna be famous he'll say.
but it'll sound really awful if i i tell him now.
tell him at the end of the week.
mm.
if he don't like it i can record over it but 
no you won't.
i know you.
you're nasty-pasty aren't you?
no if he, if he really doesn't like it then i'll oh dear 
just tell him the truth.
there it is, there it is.
mm mm 
oh that's nice.
ugh it's horrible.
mm 
what's it got, about thirty something?
yeah.
why?
oh jo !
it's only the name of the album 
well i didn't know!
you thick cow.
i'm not a carter fan myself.
you thick cow.
they look like they're on something.
yeah, so?
they probably are .
they're on the stage for singing.
yeah but, right, they're on drugs i reckon.
so?
so andy doesn't like any such thing do you and?
i don't.
so you shouldn't, you shouldn't
but i think the music's good.
don't, don't put that on very loud, i've got a bit of a headache.
you'll have a lot of headache by the time i've finished.
what?
you'll have a lot of a headache by the time i've finished.
now would i?
i don't play music loud.
there you go.
thank you.
i couldn't have done that myself.
i'm only helping.
if you don't want any help just 
alright, okay, fair enough, alright?
thank you.
you can say it as loud as you like jo.
i know, i don't want to say it as loud as i like.
go on, you shout it.
open the door.
there we are there's no-one in there.
it wasn't exactly a joke was it now andy?
it didn't make anybody laugh because it was funny 
you both laughed when i shut the door.
no it's just cos you're a twat 
yes it's vagina.
we know.
see the tufts of hair spring out and the clitoris bulge.
shut up.
no i know but 
it should be quite 
what are you looking at him like that for?
what?
that to you dunnit?
what?
no.
listen to it.
yeah, it's dynamic.
bit louder cos it's 
to drown you out.
andy andy andy andy how could you?
what?
how could i what?
what, bought that?
what?
have i what?
well one, how could you have bought that and two, how could you let her drone through it like that?
well 
oh.
i bought that cos it's good.
nobody wants to listen to it,.
well you did.
i could imagine 
it's fun.
get hours of pleasure out of this.
what are you complaining about?
you would have gone out and bought it.
no i wouldn't.
well dynamike 
mm?
she plays on yours all the time about her, your dynamike 
mm.
mm mm mm
mm.
if it wasn't f 
he's going to be dead.
if it wasn't for your dynamike i don't know what i'd do with myself of an evening.
in the front actually.
ah 
carrots.
with wings.
with wings.
oh really?
mm.
alright clare rayner.
oh by the way, if clare comes tomorrow she's bringing her boyfriend.
is she?
mm.
right on.
long as he wears a kilt.
i wanna meet him actually,
i'm not wearing a kilt 
what?
what?
i said i'm not wearing a kilt.
i don't love you any more.
alright i love you then 
you can .
alright we'll we'll arm wrestle we'll arm wrestle 
no cos i can ar you can arm wrestle, i can't.
that's your for being such a all day.
come on home 
laura got done for skiving yesterday, they all went to pam's house.
skived tuesday wednesday thursday off.
lisa got caught 
her mum saw her and she laura and erm to get caught.
that's mine.
though.
mrs wasn't there.
how many ?
what ?
don't!
give it here .
hey it's on.
what?
i know it's on.
i'm recording you.
are you?
yeah.
er maybe, hold that a minute jo.
maybe i'd better tell you what this is all about.
she's getting a twenty five pound voucher for doing this from marks and spencers.
what?
not just you, everybody.
twenty five pound voucher for what?
oh yeah!
you looked shocked there and, when you spotted that i thought oh my god.
oh that's my things, it's alright.
but don't you say anything to anybody else cos 
what?
yeah i've got, i've got all your right ups and everything.
oh yeah!
e even before you came home i switched it on.
oh i was just 
what?
get out.
i could sue you for that.
i know.
no.
no she'd record over it if she didn't 
no but you see i couldn't tell you at the start because you'd sound, you wouldn't have said half the things you did say.
i would.
and you've gotta, you've gotta like talk totally normally you see.
never normal 
yeah on there 
no but you normal for you 
i wanna hear it.
i wanna hear it.
what, what is it 
yeah but 
in aid of?
you've go you've gone in the little book 
oh!
except you've gone in as ins insurance clerk cos we couldn't, we couldn't decide what you were.
oh!
that's really gonna cock things up innit?
an insurance clerk yeah 
yeah you've got all the you know a condom dropped out of his pocket and everything 
oh good.
i bet you feel ace.
don't tell shrimpy, we 
did i say on there?
yeah.
insurance er 
no do no it's it's it's totally 
that's me.
it's erm it's totally anonymous anyway.
but like they're just doing a survey
where did you get that from?
it's a bloke come round.
a bloke came round and gave it all me.
and i've got 
cos they got to her house first cheat 
i've gotta tape all my conversations for a week.
and like
keep it and run off.
what?
no i 
like tomorrow night 
oh yeah!
i, i had to sign a bit of paper.
we'll be arseholed.
i know.
it's gonna be so funny.
ah no!
you were shocked.
you should have seen your face!
no i looked at it, i goes oh it's recording.
i thought oh, i thought it was like one of your tapes and i'd pressed record and it had started recording over it.
sshh 
hello em.
alright emma?
he just found out.
found out about what?
nothing 
aha 
oh well how are you doing then scott my friend?
oh alright, just about.
now did you see it last night?
what?
no.
me and emma were talking 
you know i'm babysitting on wednesdays?
upstairs for ages and we 
you taped it?
no.
i can't believe it, i've been slagging off for the three weeks this is crap, this is really naff.
last night
so you babysit wednesday ?
yeah.
remember i've got the equivalent of high graphic b s e?
she's going a-raving in a red red and white checked dress with a big floppy hat with pigtails and this little glove puppet penguin called mr flipper 
every wednesday is it emm?
yeah.
and it was so stupid .
bridge.
playing bridge for some .
eh?
well erm someone fell off a chair to 
it was you again?
what?
it was you again was it?
no it wasn't me 
oh by the way scott 
don't tell him.
alright.
nothing.
don't tell him hey!
come on, don't tell him he's being recorded on tape, you know
oh!
oh dumb!
don't tell him.
thank you.
we all are.
oh good job i wasn't 
no if you know you don't talk normally.
he's just been telling us about how this bloke's condoms dropped out of his pocket.
yeah i said 
oh it's this thing?
what?
oh this bloody thing that you've been 
yeah.
ah.
except emma has already told .
talking about condoms and me throwing up and all this.
they've got me down as being, you know,insurance clerk.
no a 
oh yes!
no it's
andrew.
andrew.
andrew.
andrew insurance clerk 
cos it's ano i cos it's anonymous 
it's anonymous.
anonymous it is.
anonymous 
cos on once it leaves me they don't know who it is.
they just get the book and they get all the tapes.
well i told them what it is now, insurance p l c 
all the claims come in .
but you're not, you're not allowed to talk to it see, you've got to talk to each other.
claims to be the pervert.
yeah.
like we were last night.
you're not suppose except we did .
we yeah 
well that's really taking the whole thing seriously.
the only, see the first thing i noticed 
the first thing i noticed about you when you walked in was you'd got, you'd got that's on the top of my eyes by the way, not the bottom because of our 
something.
i was listening to it t oh i've got a letter for you .
because i was writing it in r e
yeah, you owe me a letter.
who?
you wrote me a letter thursday 
as well.
cos went up there on purpose emma.
cos i phoned you
emma?
and you said you had a letter.
she purposely went up
a letter.
to get the matches out the bedroom.
what did she do?
you guessed it 
whoops.
why do i owe you a letter?
you wrote me a letter.
thursday.
yeah i know but i weren't gonna give it you.
they're strange aren't they?
well why do you think we kept turning the music down??
no it's just that you come in my house, fine.
you can record my voice, fine but you turn me music down
yeah .
you're 
that's why i did it see?
that's why we kept turning it down.
oh sorry.
hey!
won't do it again.
you'll kill shrimpy.
talk amongst yourselves.
no 
i fancy bungle.
i was watching rainbow earlier.
did you see the rainbow over tesco's?
no.
yeah we had one.
bung bungle had his sun hat on he was dead sexy 
you should have seen it.
one missing
it were really good it were.
and talking of did you hear my song?
my one 
yeah please please don't 
under a tree people are making the rubber johnnies 
oh god, no not this.
red ones, yellow ones take your pick it all depends on the length of your dick or prick .
or prick was my little ending.
cos i thought i was cool 
you'll have to speak up now everybody.
i watched the end of the video.
on one thing that really drives me mad about carter.
why does he rest his nose on the microphone?
yeah.
our house 
she thought you said knobs.
why does he rest his knob on the microphone ?
perhaps his name's 
no, he wasn't on about knobs, on about 
oh.
gonna say yeah.
gonna say you know my mum put that bloody card up don't you?
what card?
the one you sent me.
oh did she?
the card .
i just left all my cards in a pile that night cos i was a bit 
were you?
and erm and the ne oh oh about two days later i'm looking at them oh on the mantelpiece i better
i can't move it cos it'll be conspicuous by it's absence
did she laugh?
i dunno, she just put it up.
i thought it was good.
mr bulge.
yeah.
so no-one saw mr bean's i wanna be elected?
you know on er on monday?
he goes oh shit yeah of course 
8
this is a quiet bit, just talk amongst yourselves.
don't talk to it because it ma it sounds stu i was listening to us this morning.
piss on my grave!
i was just going i was listen i was listening 
you , i'll urinate.
i was listening to the end bit, i was saying what were we about at the end.
is, is shrimpy coming or what?
yeah he is.
let's, let's shake this.
yeah.
i can hear your penny shaking in there ha ha ha and i was listening oh jesus .
what's the matter?
that could be him now.
yippee.
andrew.
oh, wasn't i supposed to say anything?
andrew.
what ?
i'll finish the horror tape one night.
turn over.
we're on to tape two now?
yeah we're on to tape two cos this a side of tape two.
oh i've lost a quid!
have you?
yeah i ate it.
where have you dropped it?
you paid, you paid me with it.
well it was in here
and now it's not?
when i came down earlier and now it's er gone.
shrimpy 
whoops.
er no
whoops whoops quarter past six.
excuse me but a ninety pound deal sort of like knocked the stuffing out of me for 
yeah but you were supposed to put it in last night, not this morning.
can i have them now ?
i haven't got it.
you haven't got them?
where are they?
probably at home, i got bollocksed for having them last night as well.
why?
said you're not starting fires again are you?
i said oh yeah
watch me start a fire.
oh boots.
can you get me some of them boots?
yeah.
pardon?
can you get it?
i haven't had one yet 
oh ch 
i'm getting 
what?
i don't know what's happening.
i'm just gonna get 
ah!
that could have been painful that could you bitch.
ow!
it could have been.
that ninety pound bill was painful, i can tell you that much.
what ninety pound bill for what?
i hit my car on the kerb.
the wheel had a bulge in it, i went to have it fixed and the 
i'm alright thank you.
good.
i don't believe that.
what?
you've only had that car a fortnight and you've already done about five hundred about four hundred and fifty pound worth of damage.
who's fault is it?
oh no look it was the invisible man driving the car.
it's all my fault.
you had that allegro 
three hundred and fifty pounds worth.
not my fault, it was the, the other driver's fault.
well it was.
yes, exactly.
i was just 
right we're going out, come on.
are we?
yes.
our house 
and how are you andy?
you're looking jolly.
yes, good.
did you switch it on last night?
you know when it was going really weird?
yeah, then i turned it off.
what did you switch it on for?
to record.
cos everybody was talking.
don't tomorrow.
what you writing?
only a letter.
ah 
ah aha!
well it's got my name in it!
so?
so?
yeah so, you don't need to know do you?
oh thanks.
and i'm only putting helena and emma were talking to each other on the bus.
that's all i've put.
well just tell him i'm not getting involved with it, alright?
i know, he never said you was.
you tell him.
i told him i'm not getting, i'm not even seeing him.
and tell him no arguing tonight.
you tell him!
alright.
it's your party.
alright i will.
i wonder if pete will come tonight?
dunno.
sh when er when emma told me that erm richard said that they probably weren't going to tramps i was, i was walking around going oh boo hoo boo hoo i'm so sad all the time going oh boo hoo boo hoo
oh don't look at my letter.
i saw you you crafty sod .
and and er scott kept going what you doing?
i was going nothing, i'm just being sad.
boooo hoooo .
it was really funny.
oh i was laughing all still dream of love oh dear.
i'm so tired .
that was i'm so tired.
and who can say begin .
responsibilities 
that's very nice.
what?
bastards.
have you only just noticed?
all the times i've played it, have you only just noticed?
my mum hasn't even noticed yet.
i were playing it really really loud this morning.
i had mine on this morning and er but she was out anyway.
my mum nearly said shit yesterday,a nervous breakdown.
she goes er she goes ssshhhh no i'd better not say that since, seeing as you're in.
i goes mum i've heard it all before!
for goodness sake.
i don't know what she thinks i am.
you know, someone, you know?
i'm not a flipping nun am i?
i've just finished.
lovely i'm so pleased.
for long are you?
about five days.
i was blinded what time are we gonna chuck them out tonight?
dunno.
half one?
if you like, i'm not bothered.
it's your party.
i know it's ace.
first time i've ever had a party.
how do you spell disagreed?
d, d i s
a g 
a g r double e d. 
r e e d yeah.
it was just the d that was wrong.
oh dear i'm really really really really really looking forward to it.
not that you can tell or anything.
i can't get anything out in the crossword, i've only got thirst.
first guardian citizen don't know.
heavenly.
don't know.
how do you spell saw as in looked?
what?
sa s a w.
s a w?
i can never remember.
oh i didn't know w h smith's had been around for two hundred years.
i thought it was twenty myself.
two hundred?
it must be.
can't be.
does it say on the bottom?
no.
but it must be mustn't it?
oh aye.
what's that?
fifteen seventeen ninety two?
suppose so.
didn't think they had shops in them days.
oh yeah jo.
only joking .
oh two hours left, ha ha ha.
bye bye mummy and daddy.
watch me weep.
cheek .
not cheek cheek but cheek as in cheek, you know?
it's just spelt the same.
how do you spell it?
c h.. double e k.
you can't spell anything you.
i know, i'm crap at spelling, i'm sorry.
but nobody's perfect.
i know.
i can spell long words, i can never spell short words.
spell it .
have you seen my nail file?
no.
can't find anything in this room, it's so messy.
scott then had the cheek to tell me what can i put, good luck?
yeah.
cheek to tell me good luck.
wish me good luck it should be.
got any tippex?
please.
er no, just cross it out.
no i wanna keep it neat.
it's one of these important letters.
oh never mind it doesn't really matter.
no in your bag .
is it?
god you lazy sod.
i'm gonna, i'm gonna get scott tonight if he makes any comments and this fist is gonna go strop straight where it hurts.
he's just got me mad now telling me to good luck.
he really has, he's got me really aaaah!
oh, where's my nail file gone?
god this tippex stiff enough?
yeah.
andrew i said something about stiff right, and he goes what?
i goes i didn't mean it like that.
can you un o can you undo it?turn it?
oh
give it here.
sounding very kinky.
oh not your teeth!
that'll do now.
i always get ti ugh it's all over your face, tippex.
is it?
oh never mind.
he has got me annoyed now, he really has done.
oh dear 
yesterday meaning when you come 
er think i'll put a bit of beatles on.
oh no.
emma said 
i'm in a beatles mood.
i'm telling him all about it now, emma said she doesn't need it
what?
good luck.
oh.
and i replied shrimpy's fine aha 
nail file 
shrimpy's fine.
he phoned me this morning this morning and put and he's alright.
love love me do you know i love you 
you'll start writing that if you're not careful.
what?
cos if i sing, when i'm doing my homework if i sing along to a tape or something i start writing the words down.
you're weird then cos i don't.
anyway 
oh.
we left them
oh that's the letter shrimpy se sent me.
oh right.
left them and said we left them and said 
he had such a go at me for showing it my mum.
anyway we left them and and said 
whoops.
i said come to mine at four.
somebody new oh.
right, that's all my clothes put away.
scott makes 
love me do 
any comments tonight 
please me do 
he's getting it in the gones.
you love scott really.
i don't.
how do you spell 
i'm going 
you spell gones?
g o n e g o n e s 
gones that is.
gon gon double o?
no cos you spell gonad g o n a d.
g o?
just put gonads.
that's, what's it?
a 
a d s 
yeah.
gonads.
as he is an interfering what's the word when you say he thinks he's perfect and he's mister hard man?
big head?
interfering big head
overprotect protect protective bastard.
oh you're not gonna start a massive argument tonight are you jo?
no.
no, i'm just telling the truth what i think of him.
er although
you're such a good singer.
so?
i don't care.
so helena wishes that there will be no arguments or slanging, slagging matches is it slanging or slagging off?
slanging.
slanging matches don't worry there won't be, i'll just hit him.
won't be as after i've give him one
he won't be able to move.
oh i'm looking forward to tonight so much now.
so am i.
joanne please don't start a massive argument.
i've give him one he won't be able to move let alone talk.
your letters look nice and neat, mine are always scraggy, i can never understand them.
dear helena, i don't really rea really know how to put this but i've had i'll have a go.
i'm sorry about being in a mood on saturday but i wasn't really in a mood with you.
i'll now tol t no i know i told you that i was that i was feeling 
that, that's 
sorry for someone not emma or 
he's done a sentence wrong there.
one like that .
yeah.
i care for emma more than i can say but i also care for you and i'm really sorry if you were hurt.
at the moment everyone has been talking about other people behind people's backs.
i didn't tell you what emma thought because i don't is that a blank page?
yeah.
i don't think a person told i don't think a person told to apologize isn't rea really an apology so i think there must be a reason why you didn't and so told me on sunday why you didn't .
what a load of waffle.
oh i know, he just waffles.
i was going to apologize for being stupid on sunday when you both disappeared.
me and andy looked all over, looked for both of you.
last night i had a few things on my mind to be able to apologize.
i'm sorry and hope we can still be friends .
i read it and i just went what! for a start and then 
i went, and then i went well he can't have looked around for us too well because we were walking by the side of the road.
but yeah he probably come past no he probably went up there as we come down that corner by erm ipsleigh and when they come back we'd probably gotten here by then.
but we, i mean we were walking by the side of the road all the way up greenlands drive.
what did i say, scott then had the cheek to something me?
wish me, that was it wasn't it?
scott's not your best friend at the moment then?
oh you may not have, you may have gathered that like anyway.
erm enough enough of slagging slagging the little shit i think 
the little shit .
shit stirrer.
no, yes, shit ?
i think that's, i think that's good actually stirrer, how do you spell stirrer?
s t double r 
s t i double r e r. 
that was all.
stirrer and on to more important business, i think that sounds quite good actually, important right at the bottom of the page business drink
drink?
will you go with him and get it?
yeah.
drink erm can you, what time is it?
half one.
can you come to 
?
no.
oh i'm surprised.
he's had his hair cut this morning, reckons on having it cut short, really short.
i said don't shrimp 
ooh.
i said it looks nice as it is and i don't know if he will or not, i forgot to ask him on the phone.
can you come to helena's at seven forty five pardon me and 
er isn't it?
i don't expect scott and emma will come in your car but i would just go with you if that's okay.
don't let anyone listen to this tape.
why?
cos it's got all me reading this out all about scott hasn't it?
jo no-one listens to my tapes anyway.
no i mean like you know?
emma and scott?
yeah.
course i won't!
well er on their walkman, on the earphones.
mm.
yeah yeah yeah 
go with you if that's okay.
helena reckons she will chuck you all out 
no i'll chu i tell you, i'll chuck him and scott out if they both start.
no i'm not on about that i'm on about lea chucking them out at one o'clock.
ah.
half one
at one thirty am 
-ish -ish
one thirty am-ish, there we go.
depending on what we're doing.
hold your hand 
no i'm only 
i'll ask him if he knows whether pete's coming.
coming tonight, not in a sperm way.
not in a sperm way
sperm way?
i'm being really funny there.
wasn't that funny?
ha ha.
oh it was hilarious.
i thought it was quite good for me actually.
you laughed so just shut up.
it's such a feeling that my love i can't hide, i can't hide, i can't hide 
that my love i can't hide, i can't hide, i can't hide .
bring this down so we can listen to this.
yeah you got that something .
is, yeah you're a good old beatles fan you are jo.
i want to get down and boogie, do that head bashing like we did at that gig.
oh jo 
wanna hold your hand, i wanna hold your hand, i wanna hold your hand mm mm mm mm mm mm i feel happy inside 
i feel happy inside 
feeling that my love i can't hide well blooming er what's his name, julian won't disappear will he cos liz isn't here.
no.
i'm not disappearing all night anyway.
i'll put erm i'll tell you now shit, is that how you spell now?
it's not it's know innit?
what?
that's know, now is n o w.
i always do that.
i always put k's in front of it,always forget.
i think i've done it further actually.
well further behind actually.
i can't hide, i can't hide i think i put new actually.
and i'll kiss you tomorrow i'll miss you 
you tomorrow i'll miss you remember i'll aaaaaggghhh
always be true
and then while i'm away
while i'm away
i'll write home every day
i'll write alright!every day
and i'll send all my loving to you
and i'll send all my loving to you i knew that bit.
i'll pretend that i'm kissing 
pretend that i'm kissing alright then
the lips i am missing and your dreams will come true 
lips i am missing i like this one.
have to put this on tomorrow night if pete ain't here.
if pete isn't here?
i'm away write home every day 
there's still gonna be music on even if pete can't .
no this song i meant.
loving to you 
what do you mean, if pete isn't here?
lips that i'm missing.
loving i will send to you have to tell him we're boogieing away.
we are 
all my loving 
boo how do you spell boogieing?
is it b 
b double o
alright i know, i don't wanna s oh put, i'll put bogying i know me.
boogieing away to
bogying 
yeah beatles what was this one called?tomorrow i'll miss you
erm
and remember i'll always be true 
it's erm oh damn!
don't matter.
yeah boogieing away to the beatles, they are ace.
all my loving.
alright.
and we are going to listen to them tonight.
so tough shit
so tough shit .
ooh an hour and a half 
i think that'll do.
boo hoo bye mummy and daddy.
god you're counting!
i am.
helena is counting the minutes 
until mummy and daddy ha ha are going.
her mummy
mummy and daddy, ha ha ha, childish .
and daddy love 
if you could have just seen yourself then, you leapt up 
till her mummy and daddy go
buy you diamond ring my friend if it makes you feel alright i'd get you everything my friend if it makes you feel alright i don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love 
ring my friend if it makes you feel alright it's ace if you just sit down and listen to the old beatles isn't it?feel alright i don't care too much for money, money can't be me love can't be me love 
say you love me too
anyway
i may not have a lot to give but what i've got i'll give to you
good luck 
i don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love, buy me love 
but you need it i don't 
everybody tells me so oh i'm such a good singer, ha ha ha
anyway good luck you need it i don't 
no no no no 
no in fact don't worry about
i wouldn't let anyone else find that letter if i were you.
don't worry about scott's how do you spell opin oh opinions, right
o p i n i o n s 
i know.
if my mum finds it i'm dead.
basically.
basically.
love don't want that pound back squirm.
oh god piece of paper now.
no diamond rings and i'll be satisfied that money just can't buy 
that money just can't buy 
i don't care too much for money money can't buy me love love love can't buy me love 
oh dear oh dear oh me.
it's only half well twenty to two and i'm blooming tired.
i want to go to bed.
god you're such a lazy have you got an envelope?
no.
only cos then if we sent them nobody's gonna likely to spot it.
please, you must have an envelope somewhere.
and i've been working 
and i've been working 
like a dog, it's been a hard day's night boom boom boom boom sleeping hope they don't come too early, although then we'll, i can just leave a note.
that you do will make me feel alright ta.
work all day money 
work all day to get your oh talk of the devil, richard 's out there.
ha your lover!
oh i, i was so frightened yesterday when he came round.
he were just made me laugh come on then i'll just come out with you, in the garden.
and i come out he goes oh it's cold i'm just gonna get me coat, i'll be back in a minute
ooh he's dead creepy though isn't he?
yeah.
he's alright though.
i know he's alright but 
no problems.
he kep i was laying there and i was just dropping off to sleep, i was oh it was , and he, in h in he waltzes oh i, he, i, he goes what you doing in here?
i goes what the hell's it look like, i'm going to sleep!
he goes he goes you can't go to sleep, and he sat on the edge of my bed for about quarter of an hour.
your bed.
what do you mean your bed ?
you was on andrew's.
ooh ah 
well i was only going to sleep jo , i wasn't doing anything, i'm just tired.
oh i can't put it in there, it's not going to fit.
things that you do 
will make me feel alright 
and like he just, he just sat there and it was, ooh it was so creepy.
and like i thought i'm not gonna look up in case he goes for me or something, so i just kept my head in the pillow and pretended the light was blinding me oh ha ha cos when i get you alone what?
in their car.
what?
home 
what's the matter?
i don't think holding me tight tight 
can see me tonight can't you?
ah you are going to be so arsed, it's going to be so funny.
i won't be that bad, i won't have any ci er get one gotta get some, have to now cos we're not gonna have any.
i doubt if i'm gonna get phyllis is there.
phyllis and johnnie .
i call them but it's not, it's .
oh i've got a sore knee ooh
it's no wonder!
i've got fluid on it, it hurts.
ooh
well you go to sleep bef when they've gone, when they go out 
yeah, have a bit of a kip for a bit can't i?
i doubt if erm we'll be down here before she goes up to mine i don't reckon.
when?
yeah she is, she's dropping in
for after, after mum and dad go have the hand slapping and the yeah they've gone!
anyway i wanna have a bit of a talk to her.
what about?
well about all this business with shrimpy.
yeah but you, you must admit shrimpy's trying his damn hardest.
i, i, i mean i don't know, i wasn't there for half the things she was talking about last night, i mean i was upstairs for three quarters of an hour trying to go to sleep 
yeah well i mean i was there and all they did was they didn't say anything to each other, in the same room, just acted totally normally but didn't say anything to each other .
shrimpy's trying his flipping nice to try and let this drop and just .
we all know he still fancies her he's just trying to, you know keep it he's just trying to forget it and try and act as normal as possible with her and hopefully things will get back to be back to what, what they were.
but flipping scott, mister interferior
interferior ?
yeah interferer.
flipping no, it really annoys me that does.
they're always going on about how much shrimpy gets other people involved and can't stick up for himself aren't they?
and bloody scott runs rushing off and thinks he's mister hard man.
what sort of things are you gonna say anyway?
well i'm just gonna, i'm just gonna say that joanne's a bit worried about shrimpy which is true
yeah.
you know?
and i'm just gonna say you know, i think it would be better if scott didn't rush in like that, you know?
i can understand why he did it, to be quite honest.
yeah but you say to her that they're always on about how s shrimpy can't do anything for himself, and it's between emma, it's not between it was al even scott said to me at the beginning oh it's not between me, it's nothing to do with me, it's between emma and scott.
emma and shrimpy.
emma and shrimpy then.
and erm he's been, then he rushes ahead full storm don't he?
mm.
he shouldn't have done that really, he was a bit naughty.
he,sh she ought to learn to sh she's, they was all on about how shrimpy can't stick up for himself, and then flaming emma does exactly the same but worse cos she gets scott to do it for her.
she's gonna have to one of these, i'm not being funny but she can't stick up for herself, that girl can't.
it's about time she had the courage to do it, herself if she's in a strop.
there's no point getting scott, cos what's gonna happen when she finishes with scott?
she really 
oh
as you've probably gathered.
oh i need your love babe
what's this?
yes i know it's true erm 
where's the tape?
hold me love me hold me love me you 
what was this af what was it after?
what's just been on?
hold me love me eight days 
what 
a week this is love me ain't got nothing but love babe
it's not on here, eight da oh yeah it is.
eight days a week 
and i love her no i mean i feel fine, ticket to ride and yesterday, oh yes!
i like them.
help i need somebody that's on side b. 
can we sing the song we're on!
yeah alright.
we've got
you all the time whoa whoa hold me 
i like daytripper as well.
love me
michelle michelle
michelle 
paperback writer's good as well.
eleanor rigby and yellow submar i like all of them really.
you like all of them don't you jo
yeah.
really?
you make me laugh .
when you're in a mood like this you're so excellent.
ooh ooh.
i'm just excellent all the time, can't help it.
no when you're in a strop you're not excellent.
yeah well you can't expect me to be perfect all the time.
no yeah, just follow my example.
flipping heck!
no.
you was in a right moody the other day when i told you 
when?
when?
what?
when?
when you showed 
when i went a bit mad .
well, stupid fool.
he isn't a stupid fool!
leave him alone.
i'm sticking up for the little bless him.
eight days a week 
well he's done a lot for me really, hasn't he really?
he takes me and picks me up from school and takes us where we wanna go you know, off to the shop, off to here, off to get some get some drink and takes us for a drive and 
yeah i mean he's mm he's 
he's a do anything for anybody sort of person isn't he?
bless him.
i've got a dead itchy back, oh!
ah!
hurt me boob.
hurt your boob ?
bashed it.
i'm dreading tonight now.
i've decided i don't think i can go to 
i thought you would g , oh i thought you were about to say i've decided i'm not coming.
oh i mean i don't want it to be a party where everybody goes off into different rooms, you know?
yeah.
and there's about three in the middle who go right, this is a good song
move my little finger, you know?
want to have it where everybody's together, boogieing
don't know whether clare's coming or not yet.
and having a laugh.
well you'd better phone her up.
i said phone me if you're coming but don't bother if you're not so it looks like she's not.
oh well if she turns up does she know where you live?
she does doesn't she?
well yeah, she can find it.
what's this?
i feel fine.
did jason donovan sing this, afterwards?
no.
alright then.
oh 
why?
just gone the road with bev!
she said so 
can we turn it up a bit?
no cos it'll drown the microphone.
oh!
i feel fine let me flare my nostrils.
unless we can turn it off for a bit.
she said so 
no.
no, why not?
i'm in love with her and i feel fine afterwards it's only 
i'm so glad that she's my little girl she's so glad she's telling all the world that her baby buys her things you know 
so glad that she's my little girl she's so glad she's telling all the world bleagh 
he buys her diamond rings you know, she said so