The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-06-09 00:00:00

•
STATtSMAN.

s say that, as the Noble Mover ndsnitted, that the
email was Prutestant, and connected
with a Protestant ecclesiastical establishment, so, ie
his (Lord Livereeoi's) opinion should the Members
td. tile Gores-Tensest awl la the Parliament be Pro.
tests et elsu.---[ neer, lure !]—For the question .1 as,
shetber a Prieesonit Dynasty, tied a Protestant
le%ins!ical Itsestehlishment should be supported by
a Protestatit Parliament, and a Protestant Adnsi.
„tetresinsi. This appeared to him substantially the
q„eeees, which their Lordships were called upon to
cunsislor.—Uleur, hear!]—Upon this point lie, fur
.., Lr,cl seen sin ground to alter the decision which
he had already stated to their Lordships ; but it
...sold he for the Ilnuse to consider in this case,
ee.l eve under a Guretiiiiient whirl' was 110 a chi-
tr3o, which, on tee routes's', was limited by law,
wild b.. selso to entrust the maintenance of that
tesitenniessr, which was ecsantinlly Protestant, to
viy other than Pretesiessi Councils, whether it would
he Bali. tic commit that (:«vessesseist to the adminis.
tension of Catholics. This %%as indeed the greet
question which he woutd lint teen argue in (feted,
but he felt it to he the real question for the conside.
rciess of Parliament. He nes ay., lie that many in•
fur wham he entertained the utmost re.
seer?, were of opinion thit the teethoece might he
eoticili•ted, while all ground of ;dal m would be re-
stored from the mind of the Protestants through the
estatlishmesst of certain securities: but for himself,
Ito was !tolble to comprehend how the securities pro..
passel remit' serve to 10-cote lli. r purposes. On
tae croulrary, accortlhig to his jteiginent it appeured
inspoisible to cause any such securities as should at
once satisfy the Protestant awl conciliate the Catho-
lic—such as should remove the jealousy of the one,
and be agreeable to the feelings of the other—such,
in a sore!, as should form the basis of a legislative
arrangement satisfactory to all parties; and his view
of the subject was justified by the proceedings of the
Catholics of Ireland, who had loudly and univer.
ally expressed their disapprobation of the plan of
securities which had on a -late occasion been submit-
ted to. that House. What alteration, and whether
any would take place in the state of the Catholic
Church, and in the opinion of the Catholic People
in Ireland, which might render it safe for the Legis-
lature to concede to the pretensions of the Catholic
Body, he could not pretend to say; but at present
be was decidedly of opinion, that no such concession
was proposed, as it was prudent in the Legislature
to grant with any probability of meeting a graceful
reception from the Catholics. Under those conside-
redone he was adverse to the proposed concessions.
But whatever Isis opinion might he as to the policy
of these concessions, he saw nu advantage that could
result from the proposed enquiry, and therefore he
should give it his derided negative.
Lod MELVILLE thought that the adoption of
this Motion was not calculated to satisfy the Catho-
lic Body, and therefore he should vote against it, al-
though lie hy uo lase us concurred with those who re-
sisted the proposed concession, on the ground that
it ta eked endanger the SPCUI i.y t.f the Church Este.
Inc the security of which he was as ails:-
ions as any sew oho hnrd him. Therefore, althotigh
be should resist tie proposed enquiry, as unlikely to
teed to any satisfactory result, he hoped that sonic
legislative measure would he devised for the eoncilia.
tine of the Catholics, without alarmitee the Protee-
sots. But from the late period of the .40. FlOll, and
from what hail passed elsewhere, he could [sot expect
that guy ptacticel benefit would be derived from re-
solving into a Committee of Enquiry upon this sub-
ject at present, with a view to any satisfactory con-
clusion e ithin this Session. Being however friendly
to the Catholics, as he had manifested by his vote
apon a former occasiou, he hnled that some Leiria.
iative measure would be brought forward at. an early
period of lite next Session, such as could he acceded I
to consistently with sound policy and justice to all '
parties, and it should have his cordial support, for
he was satisfied that things could not fairly remain
as they were.
1 he Duke of SUSSEX declared his inteistiou to
vote for the Motion, upon the grounds already so
ably stated by the Noble Mover and others, who
supported his view of the subject.
Lord NIULGRA VE spoke strongly in favour of
the motion, and deprecated the idea of abstaining to
do justice to the Catholic Body, because some tierce-
sonable persons were tint likely to be satisfied. it
was, in his opinion, the duty and policy of the Legis-
lature to separate the reasonable from the um easona•
ble part of the Catholics. and to render justice to the
former, without any regard to the complaints or
caprices of the latter; hut to refuse enquiry, and to
hold out no expectation,was not the way to afford clue
satisfactiass to any parts. He dissented entirely from
Ike proposition of his Noble Fsiend (Liverpool), that
it would be impovible to secure a Protestant Govern-
ment and a Protestant Church if Catholics were ad-
mitted into Parliament, or smite ed eligible to stet tein
coil appointments. So much as to the write of the
tomer:ll question : sea as to the motion before the
Ileuse, he should vote fns it. kith a view to hold out
an expectation to the Cetholie Body, that it was the
intention of the !louse to t esoni e their just co;:i•
plaints, for he was pessueded that thine,s eould not
retnaist its their present slate.
Lord lIARROWBY pser..l with his 'Noble
Friend who spoke last, that ti.iuge could nut felonies
sir their present siege, and should be ready to sub.
scribe to his arguments in favour of the motion, if
they were brought forward in February neat, in-
steed of Ilse present adsaticed period of the Session ;
bet yet, on the grounds stated by his Noble Friend
(Melville), he could not help declaring, that if he
were a Catholic he should consider the adoption of
the presentenotion as a mate morkes y.
Lord BOBBING DON followed on the same side.
Lord DONOUGII MORE expressed his disposi-
lien to conform to the wishes of the Noble Lords
opposite, and therefore proposed as an Amendment,
that the Howie should ?pledge into a Committee up-
on the question, at an early period of the tis.txt Ses-
lien.
Lord GRENVILLE suggested that this Amend-
ment might be adopted, by consent, among those
"ha were friendly to the priecipte of the motion.
Lord LIVERPOOL declared his intention to op-
. pose the principle of the motion.
t Lnrd NI ELVILLE expressed his approbation of
the Amendment'. •
The Earl of WESTMORLAND declined at pre-

The Motion was then put in the amended form, and
the House divided—

Notsseonlents 42 Proxie. 44-86
Contents 29—Ploxies 31- 60
The Motion was thus lost by a majority of 26.
Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The Irish Prosecution Bill was read a third time and pared.
Mr. ABU:BC:ROM I: moved fur as account of the number
of causes heard and determined each year by the Mater rf the
Rolls in I re!,t,ti, from the Ist January, 1806, to theist January,
NlL—Ordered.
The Report of the Irigi Ship Letter Ilia as brought up, and
taken into consideration.—To be read a third time on Monday
next.
The deport of the Irish Excise Licence Bill was brought tip,
and takett min consideration.—To be read a third time on Mon-
day next.
The Irish Paperhanging Bill, was read a third lime and
pasted.
Sir J. NEWPORT moved fora detailed account of the Law
Charges to the second Solicitor of Excise in Ireland, during the
last five years.—Ordered.
M DRAT OF THE METROPOLIS.
Mr. ROSE wished to call the attention of the
House to the Meudicity of the Metropolis. He be-
lieved as accerate information had been obtained Ott
that subject as it would well admit of. A Gentle►'
man, connected with the Office of Mendicity, Mr.'
Alartin, had with the greatest industry, compiled en
account of the numbers and despeription of people in
a mendicant state in the Metropolis and its vicinity,
en account which he was ready to submit to the
House. According to this account there were, on
the whole, somewhat more than 15,000 persons its
the Metropolis and its immediate neighbourhood who
subsisted by beNing. They were divided in this
manner : The persons ssho had settlements in the
Metropolis or neighbourhood, amounted to 6690. of
this number 4150 were children, and 9.540 adult:.
There were besides 2604 persons who had settlements
in different parts of the country, that is in England ;
of these 1374 were adults, and 1'.130 children. Of
the persons who had no settlements in this kingdom
there were 5310 Irish, of whom 3273 were children,
and N 37 adults. The Scott:: amounted to 501. of
whom 309 were children, and 195 adults. The per-.
sons who had no settlement in any of these kieg
doms amounted to 177. The result gave nearla 1;0'0
adults and 9000 children. They were not all of
them beggars, but some were artificers who earned
as much as 40s. a week when in health, but wire
fr,,m rot being members of any friendly society,
were left unprovided for when unable at any time to
nork. Allowing for the maintenance of these peo-
ple—sixpence a day for such as were adult, and
threepence a day for the children—the whole would
be about 100,0001. a year. But Ile was persuaded
that the gains of these people were actually much
greater; and the result or his inquiry was, that he
would vote the sums of money received very low
if he allowed three shillings a day each. lie
knew, however, to an absolute certainty, that
msny of them received considerably more than this;
but three shillings a day would make somewhat about
325,0001. a year, supposing only the adults to receive
it, sod potting the children out of the question.
The inconvenieece to the public was notorious,, not
only from being incommoded by these persons in the
streets (which Was the least part of the but from
their having no regular means of subsistence, it was
clear that the children must be brought up in habits
of idleness, end vice, and misery.—The system o!
education was most pernieioos. This class of persons
never sent their children to schools; for the children
were instruments in their hands to obtain relief by
importunity. That schools were of the utmost ad-
♦antage to the child.e t of the poor, there could be
no deubt ; there were even instances of these chil-
dren actually reforming their parents : he was ac-
qtrainted with several instances of this description.
There were runny schools about the Metropolis on a
very extensive scale—the school for the chilaren of
Soldiers—the Royal Naval Asylum : there was one
in Westminster for not less than one thousand chil-
d vltich owed ;' ehielly to the


. •
tient to pledge himself upon the subject, although he he thought something might be done. Nearly 7000
woul•I probably support a reasonable concestien to of these people had settlements in or near the Metro-
the Catholics, if brought before the Ilouse in. the polis. The law of the country had prolidaela_FelletlY I
(.nurse of the next Session. * for that. With respect to those eho bad settlements I
Lord REI)ESDA LE concurred in the opinion of iu die country the same thiug might: be done, wit
I,ird Liverpool, observing that the system of se-'them. The next class was those who belong.] to I
curities proposed on a late occasion, appeared to him Scotland and Ireland ; those from itzotland were few I
rather to increase than to diminish the danger of corn- in uumher, and might be sent back to that country.
plying with the wi.h of the Catholic Body. He ap- [lot with respect to helm', the difficulty was much
proved of the concessions made to the Catholics of greater, as they were more.outherous, and in Ire..
Ireland in 11793, but he thought any farther conces- land there were no Paws Rates. In Scotland there
sion would he extremely inexpedient, at least until 'were means of relief far the poor, and though there
a material change took place in the character of that were no Poors Rates generally in that country, yet
Body. tthe law was on that subject precisely the sense as in
The Earl of ABERDEEN supported the motion, Eughted. Of the foreigners, many of them might
on the ground that by the motion he was not pledged he sent home to their own countries. There were
to any general principle, but merely to an inquiry, often to be seen seamen begging with one arm only,,
for which he thought the present moment inauspi- or sue leg. Knowing the. false imputation which.
ciaus. In the next Session the situation of Europe they brought on the country, he .had often spoken
might enable them to decide without danger on the to such persons, who admitted that they received a
claims of the Catholics. pension of 181. n year. 'l'heae were the most int-
- - - - - •• •

porionoe of all beggars. • Art! r alluding to
burgh and ILindiurtzh, where Meudicity was pre,

vented, the Right lion. Gentleman cottipletieti with
moving for a Committee to enquire into the state of,
bleodicity In the Metropolis and its immediate neigh-,
bout hood.
Mr. IJAMNIERSLEX spoke in „fera of raise of
an inititution for the relief of the isouasin Dublin.
Sir M. ittinxy. 64d, .that.. four 04t of are ppr.
so:, never tank. the tickets to the Mendacity Of
Dflr. pgru4: conceryfrt,iorthp..praisvahltich had;
been bestowed on the management of the Dublin
Asylum, but he doubted whether it would he politic.
to extend the plin to this count. y. It did not ope-
rate in discouraging mendicity, and Nos kept up at.'
an expense of 50,0001. a.year. As there were no •
poor lan On Ireland, this Institution might be there •
necessary. There was no town where mendicity
prevailed to such an extent as in Dublin, and where
the beggars were so. wretched.
Sir JOHN NEWPORTdeprerated the attempt to
introduce the chatitahlp asylums of Ireland into this
country. ;. they were necesnary. in Ireland, but not
here.
Mr. LOCKHART. hoped that in regulating the
metropolis, they would not lose sight of the coun-
try. By driving beggars from London, they might.
afterwards be let louse on the country.
Mr. ROSE said, it was .desirable that the respec-
tive parishes should take'cire of their own poor. No-
body was mere evenly tl4n himself to remove any
personwhile_ he could pitt.intalp . himself ; end Ike had
first introducwdl-law
Mr. LOCK HART eiplainetL,
After some farther ebsetrationa from-Sir John Se.
bright, Mr. Alderman Atkints,Sir Chas. Monck, and
the Chancellor. of the Exelienuer4 the Motion wat
agreed to, and a Committee named.
Mr. PEELE brought in a Bill to augment the sa-
lary of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, Which
was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time on Tuesday next.
• BATHING tv TEM IP %NIES.
,Jt.4-1.4A1f-CI,4Y presented a Petition, signed by
persosy ittlaisitistAfinusps on the 'Thames, against the
ninnies filth-lug Bill. Ile had another Petition from
th'e sitermen who ply on the rivet', against the Bill.
"" hY. A. TXTLOIT Tited.27 years besides
the Thames, and .he had Never seen any of the
nuisances complained of by Bon. Gentlemen. Ile
had frequently not seen six persons bathing in the
Thames in the course of la twelvemonth. Any in-
decent practices mold be pnitisheil at common law.
Be was bred in Westmiuster School, and he owed a
great deal to that Seminary ; and he was proud of
being a Westminster boy.—[ Laugh.]
.Ir..RARV EY had likewise the pleasure of living
on the banks of the Thames, and he could not help
saying, that* was almost impossible for ahy decent
person tit in such situation from the number of
persons undressing themselves, and exposing their
naked bodies to view.
After a fee wneds, from M r,c.isivert and Mr. M. A.
or Tayl Mr. C. W. Wynne, and Mr. Horner, the
. r• ..
Petitions were read, and ordered to lie on the table.
• The House, on the motion Mr. C. W. WY NNE,
went into a Committee no the Thames Bathing Bill. '
Mr. lIAR V El" moved as an Anietiment,a chaise
to present persons from indecently. caposing thrm.,
Pelves in all stairs where bolts were taken, nod to
quable nan''istrates, on a representae fount people
inhabiting tike banks of the River, complaining of the
nuisance, to order posts to he put up; 11'411111:g per-
sons not to undress themselves and bathe near the
spots where such posts were lilt up, and that -theist
Offending should be subjected to a penalty. not ex.
seeding 10s. and not less than ss. fur a lint offence,
and 20a. for n second offence.
The Committee divided,—
For the Aivientline..t.
Against it

sren, which owed its existence chiefly to the Speaker,
Al..itoil!p acii,:sl the A..1,1.,1:n..nt - —'2l
in conjunction wild the late Mater of Westminster I On bringing up the Report of the Committee of
School.' Such schools were deserving of every degree : supiiy,,
of encouragement. A good deal of attention had I
also been paid to the situation of the poor of-the Ca.! Sir .101 IN NEWPORT recommended that that
pilaf end its neighbourhood. There was the associa- pall of the schedule which laid au additional duty
of one halfpenny on Newspaper, should be omitted.
thin with which' Mr. Martin was connected :--A In his opinion such an imposition was at this time
number of Gentlemen were authorised to deliver I peculiarly impolitic—at this time, *hen the people
tickets to those people whom they might find beg.
were so much in wont of information. The new
ging; they carried their tickets to Mr. Martin's duty, to a certain eateitt, mast operate as a prohibi.
house, w Ito made inquiry into their character, and . firm.
if he found they were persons deserving
of relief, ' The CH A NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
they obtained nssistnnce from him. In addition to made a single remark, inaudible in the. Gallery ; af-
this there was an establishment which was called ter which a division took
.plat. e. The nbers were
The Stranger's Friend, not generally known, but the following:—
which was admirably conducted. The persons
I • Fott Ibfarimlutinn - f.3—.4 rant it .•
11
themselves went about town arid informed them.! OSSPar -retartvio the galtery we fogad the Ifouse
se::,•s ::s to the situation of VP rinti3 paupers, whose taking into further censideretion the Report of the
modesty would not allow them to beg in the India Shipping Bill, and Mr. %VALI:ACE proposing
common way, amid gave them relief. There was a oewOnutie'tcespecting the admission of Indla4ballt
another Institution, called a Refuge for the ()esti- ships it a certain tonnage.
tute, which was butter known than the former.— Mr. NIARRYAT was decidedly hostile to the
There was also another lately established, called the whole measure as repugnant to many of the prin.
Irish Benevolent Society. His intention was to pro. cipies laid down iii the reports of the Company it-
pose to the House to appoint a Committee to consi. self. He contended at some !Pooh that chips built
der the State of Mendicity. If this should be agreed in India could have no right, to trade to China, which
to, he would, its the first place propose, that the was a foreign State, upon any vimv of our navigation
Committee should endeavour to ascertain the fact of laws; 'mid thatit was impossible to convert them to
the Went of the evil. It was at least deserving of other purposes of armament or political utility, to
attention to try if some means could not be devised which British.boilt vessels trading to the East were
for remedying it. When the wisest and berg of men at all times eonvertitile. Ile concluded by moving a
had failed; it would be presumptuous to- suppose. clause, evepting, ell vessels employed by the Exit
that complete success could be expectid.' BLit still India Company, and not registered, manned, &c.