The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-03-10 00:00:00

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11Ir. PAEINti e.sptainea, Ind unit say, that hi
w, aid prop, that in the Repot* made to the City ut
Londen, the localities of the prison in questian were
m4represented, and in perfect frinformity with a state
of that tool printed several years before.
Mr. Alderman WOOD would ask the Hon. Member,
did he state this after he (Alderman Wood) had stated
the contrary ? He thought the word of any Honour-
a'ile Member ought to be taken iu preference to that
els gaoler.—(Hear.)
Mr. BARING again explained.
Dr. LUSHINUFON wished to know from the
Right Hon. Gentleman whether, if this individnel, on
resigning his property, would, after so long an im-
prisonment, be enlarged by tioverntnent?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he had no power en the subject, and if he had, he
should examine all the circumstances.—The petition

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEI: having
moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve
itself into a committee of Supply,
Mr. CREEVEY rose to oppose the motion.—During
the seven weeks that Parliament had sat, no day had
passed on which petitions had not been laid on the
table bf that House complaining of grievances, and in
to one instanre without the evidence of the Members
presenting them corroborating them. There were
two attempts inaffe in this flonse—one by the Hon.
Member for Abingdon, chewing how two millions
could be saved—that motion was lost: the other by
the Hon. Member for Cumberland, for the purpose of
taking off a particular tax, which was also lost ; and
vet the.Hrinse was called un to vote the supplies as a
matter of indifferetiee. Though the House, constituted
as it was, could not do justice to the country and
instanced the patronage possessed by Members of that
House in appointing to 140 place of great profit, namely,
VI distributors of Stanips, and VI collectors of Land Ts st.
It was impossible for gentlemen to shut their eyes to the
fact, that numerous pensions and sinecures were possess-
ed by Members of that (louse, and that all the great an-
nuities and patronage of the country flowed from the
Hou e of Common.; the patronage in fact was so great,
that the House of C Mons had become much too
strong for the people. All these things ought to he
taken into consideration, lu-fore any more of the public
motley was voted, or before the House went into the pro-
posed Estimates. As an amendment, therefore, to the
motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair, be should
move as follows :—'• That the House should take into
immediate consideration the subject of Members of
that House holding offices under the Crown, and the
expediency of diminishing the number of the same,
it appearing by the Report of a Finance Committee
made in ISOS, that them were uo fewer than seventy
Members of the blouse liolliing such offices,
the aggregate amount of whose salaries and
pensions was 150,000/. a-year ; and also because in the
present state of unparalleled distress in which lhir
country was involved, no substantial relief could be es-
pteted,except from an independent House of Commons
This amendment, he said, would speak for itself, and it
was a subject in which all the people of the country
were interested.
Lord PALMERSTON said lie amid hardly conceive
that the Hon. Headman was serious in the amendment
be bad just proposed; for if tout , he (hdoril Palinerstp4
.4.ebta'het dotatio Ilse House with any
observations ou what had fallen from him. This amend-

metst of the lion. Gentleman's appeared to he a new
mode of recording his opinion ; and it was one of the
most extraordinary proceedings he had ever witttes.ed
in that !lousy. It any distress existed in the country,
it was that which affected our agriculture ; anti he w mad
put it to the Mu. Gentleman, whether the House by the
appointment of a Committee, had not already solopted
the best means by which that distress might be relieved.
if the House were prevented from going, int , Co.n-
natter, the whole machine of Government would be ob-
structed; and it would he tantamount to a proceedine
which Nothing but the greatest emergency. could justify.
The Mutiny Act wroild expire on the 24111 of the re-
sent month.; and if it was not renewed, the army conk]
not be paid. flow then could the affairs of the conn,ry
be carried on ? The lion. Gentleman's amendment then
could not he considered in any other light, 'Lin as a
mode of recording his opinion.
Colonel DAVIES asked if the lion. Gentleman meant

to go into the question of supply, after his motion was
disposed of.
Air. CREEVEY said he had put his amendment, and i
that he would take the sense of the Rause upon it.
Mr. BENNETT conceived that when a large sum of
money was proposed to be voted for the largest army
that ever was kept up in a sixth year of peace, it was
necessary first to enter into the inquiry moved for by
his Honourable Friend. Anil he trusted his Honourable
Friend would bring forward motions of this kind re-
peatedly.
Mr. LALCRAFT said he could not accede to a pro-
position, which would embarrass the tioveroment i•I
the manner this motion must do. He was as moirli
ftieutl to economy as his Hun. Friend, and concurred in
most of his sentiments; but he could not agree iu a
motion that went to embrace such a great variety of
topics, which would moire many nights' discussion.
At the same time, be thought the proposed military
force was too large ; and, as the army must he provided
ls"rtho thought it %lint's! he better for :he Noble lord to
move a short Mutiny Bill, so as to enable the Holwse
to discuss the subject of oar Military Establishment,
with a viaw of reducing it hereafter.
Mr. CHEF:VEY saw no difficulty in taking into im-
mediate consideration the number of offices held by
Members of that House.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that although lie agreed
generally with his lion.Frientl, he could not agree with
his motion for entering into a subject which required
a very long discussion.
• HUSKISSON supported the motion fur the
Sptaker leaving the Chair.
• MUNCK said, he should support the motion of
the liouoraule Member for Appleby : fur it went Ito
further than to call on the House to give a pledge
that it was determined to adopt every possible plan of
economy, that being the Constitutional mode of re-
dressing grievances.
The House then divided—
For going into the Committee 179
For Mr. Creevey's amendment ...:tit
The question being again put that the Speaker do
leave the Chair,
Mr. HUME said, that before the motion was put,
lie should call theattentiou of the House to the Military
Establishment of the ccuntry as it now existed. Ile
was confident that the e.i.tresses of the country could
n berelieved in any other way except by a diminution
of taxes; and that diminution could not take place
without lessening the expenditure. He.was particu-
larly anxious ou this point, because this was the first
great expenditure proposed
.in the present Session
anti because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had on
a tomer occasion declared tin: there would be a s

- M

rig in the year of One Million in Orli expesseei 0 the
army ; but the fact was, that the expanse weld be
less than it was last year only by the stns e(460,0001. ;
and that the estimate of this year would he.greater than
it was in the year ISM Desiring, the Howse was de-
ceived in cosmogonies, o(tbe estimates brims voted by
driblets ; for at present they were given to undentaod,
that uo more than six millions were required; whereas
the whole expense of the army this year would amount
to above fourteen millions. The proper datum fur regu-
lating the amount of force required by this country was
the proportion of force 'which existed in the year 1791.
—The number of taoops kept op in Great Whale
during that year, was 15,900; in the colonies, 17,343;
and in Ireland, 15,733; making a total of 4n,475. But
the estahlishment at present was greater by the number
of 32,632 men. He was ready to admit, that the exten-
sion of our colonies required an addition of 1:4000 men
more than the establishment of 171r2. This be would
propose to reduce gradually, by first discharging 10,000
men. In 179'2 the artillery amounted to between three
anti four thousand, and the marines to between 4 and
5000. In the following year the militia amounted to
17,0110. Now the artillery amounted to the number of
7472, the marines to MOO, and the militia to 51,996 ; yet
at this moment the state of Europe was wore tranquil
that in 1792. Besides, there was at present a great
yeomanry lore, ready to be called out; and uotigiog
could be more evident than that our military establish-
ment was far greater than the situation of the country
required. Therefore lie would put it to those Gentle-
men who were complaining of agricultural distress, whe-
the most elfeetual Wellss of relief which they could de-
vise would not be to diminish the present military esta-
blishment ? and no man who did not vote for such a re-
duction could have economy at heart. The thing was
necessary because we now had twice the number of irre-
gular forcr which the country had in 1792. The Hon.
Member next alltitlegl to the great and unuecessery increase
that had taken place in the Ilurse-guards and Foot-guards
—troops that could not he sent to relieve the Culonies,and
which were wanted only for parade. There was also an
unnecessary number of guards, a hick hail been greatly i so
creased since 1792, although there was no occasion
for them ; and they were useful for no other purpose
than that of parade and show. The charge for the
Life-guards was now 92,000/. a-year ; and the public
were put to tin small expense by the mode in which
they were dressed. Now by reducing these Guards to
the meager they were at in 1792, a very cogisislerable
1 saving might be made to the country. All he wanted
was to take away the superfluous establishments oeea-
sioned by moose roes Guards, and their wearing
Imost expensive dresses. If the Guards wereeven eyed-
,ly economical with the regiments of dm hue, they
were not equally efficient. Ile did nut rue
riot to)ty that
reel
they were as brave as any other t , but that j
they could not be applied to the various seirirlees whirls
troop of the title were employes' in. It would also
he necessary for thy House to look to the ovesszeoeen
Stall of the country: and the great expense attending
the War-uffice, where same clerks had 1500/. a-year, at
a time when all kin,:s ut pr. . arty had (allege and he
!bought we ought to recur Its the prices as well as
the standard of the year 1792 ?—(flear, hear, hear.)—
Ile thought that the 93 regiments shouts' he mineral to
75, each to contain two I..lli:ilium, and would register a
saving to the country of 212,000/. Ills (Tinton is ..s
cleat that they would then have a more Hier ye force,
&side& as hiChall.ahamicibialip-aiessr+s- ----Ne-iorP
teadral to propose. in the Coongettittee, a resiti.lion in the
staff. In the year 1792, it aas only an (-ere's, ut
fi,h2ll/.; in ISil it. amounted to 26,175/. soaking n
olifferetter of '21,956.f. He would coatine himself :n the
Stall. In speaking of the Horn- thiards, a reduction of
whirl' he %timid recommend, lie mould say, that he he.
betted bear duty better performed than any other. Why,
thee, it alight lie asked, propose, a reduction of it? 114--
ea tea. it could be easily oliepenseil with, anti would be the
Slsra 111 ut a great saying to the comity. The expense
of the Cononander-in-Cloiers esiublialiment at the
Horse Guards IVA 4 29,111111/. —What Witlg the comparative
Suit' abroad .: What a... it in the Mriliterrao:•4ll,—in
the West Indies,—in North Aineriea? la the year
1712 it was 17,1100/.; in the year I'o2 it IVA% 19,9601.;
,and in the year 11421 it amounted to the sum of M!,3291.
The min.y they should adopt with regard to the Colo-
nies, was to maintain sin :frit:66.r for -e titan Iva. necessary
to protect them. 'Else present system of Covernment
was ruinous : it irrit.tte.l the inhabitants of tlie•e eniii-
air4. Ile would refer to reyloa, to Trinidad, to Malta,
to the Cape of Good Iltive. Does the Noble Lord
think the inhabitants of those ceslonies would take any
Howes' in defending their reapective countries? No;
they have no interest in supporting the British Go-
vernment. Ceylon, perhaps, might he excepted in
consequence of the great interest they felt in the Trial
by Jury, which was introduced by Generil Johnson,—
That measure tranquilized that couutry, and disposed
the inhabitants to thief( favourably towards this coon-,
try. But it was cruel that the subjects tit- Ceylon
should be liable to be taxed at the arbitrary will of one
I let3ll. A time may come when lie should bring that
I loisiness before the House. If the Cape of Good
Hope, Trinidad, and Malta, had received the
rights of British subjects, they would feel an in-
terest in contributing their portion towards their
own defence. On the expenditure in these Co-
hmies he would not speak witliont authority. Ile
appealed to the papers %hie+ bad becu laid before
them ; they would support his position ; and in this
statement he wuuld not except the lonian Isles.--
(Hear, hear.)—lguntense sums had been squandered
in paying officers in those colonies. He could assure
the Bight Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) he would not be able to reduce the ex-
pesli:nre until he adopted these suggestions. Ihe Co-
tooth's, if they had been *ell treated, would join heart
and hand in contributing to all the expenses ioeurred
in their defence. The expense of protecting these
was beyond any one's conception. The Colouie,
under the government of any other country lied been
productive and beneficial to that country, but the mo-
ment they came into the possession of Great Britain,
they became a cause of embarrassment. He would not,
however, give up any of the Colonies.—(Hear, hear.)
ile would support them, but would reduce the officers
and abolish the office., many of which were merely
created to serve some individuals who had infinite e
enough. to be appointed to fill them. Those who would
examine the accounts would bo astonished that the
IHouse of Commons--the guardians of the public purse.
could tolerate such thing.. Sir J. Creig thought 3,1101 W.
Ia-year quite sufficient for a Governor of the Cape of
lima Hope. But now it was four times that sum.
These expences were not incurred to support the coun-
try, but to create sinecure pieces. It happened that chil-
dren only six years obi had snutetinws situations its she
Colonies which they never saw. These offices should be
first abolished, in *Meet° save the corintry. The papers
which he had moved for would shese the.ezact expendi-
ture of the Mauritius,. of Trinidad. kc. The Hon.
Member then proceeded to contrast the various establish-
Isilents of 1792 with those of 1621; and concluded,
ausitlit a great dial of :wise, hy saying, that all these

4p •

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estaiiistiniente inght to be redaced to what they bad
been in 17W. Ht then moved the followlag Raw I
et It Resolved—That it appears br. the official Retinae
beihritMs Room. that the total Military Establishment
tef Ora* Britain and Ireland for 1792 (exalis's* of the
East hat", and of the Artillery, Militia and Marines,)
consisted of 48,474 men, namely, 15,919 for Great
' *halo, Orterosey.fse. ; 17,323 in the Coloules abroad ;
mid 151321 a Ireland; and, that the total Military Bs-
tablielsmeril of Great Britain and Ireland for 1821
((seinen* of India, the Artillery, the Militia, and
Marines) e.tosists of 01,106 officers and men; namely.
of 27,852 in (treat Britain, Guernsey, &c. ; 32,476 in
the Colonies abroad; and 20-779 in Ireland.
" 2.•Reso;red—That the Supplies for the expense of
the Military Establishment of (heat Britain and Ireland,
in IT* were 2,331,1491.; that the Supplies voted for
the Military Establishment of Great Britain and Ireland,
for IS9O, were 9,500,216/. ; and that the Army Estimates
for 1021, now submitted to the House, are only 163,4901.;
less than those of 1:420.
"3. That there were in the service of Great Britain
and Ireland, in 1799 (exclusive of the regular Cavalry
and Infantry.) 23,757 troops, namely, 3,730 of Royal
Artillery. 4,425 of Royal Marines, and 17,64 e of Disem-
bodied Militia ; and in 1021 (exclusive of the regular
Cavalry and InfAntrr„) the number of 125,432 troops,
Nmely, 7,972 Itttrineers and Artillery, 0,6110 Rona
Marines, 51,998 Disetnhodied Militia, and 57,629 1 ie-
tnam-3. Cavalry and Volunteer Infantry, being in number
a larger force 5y 132,367 men, available for purposes of
Government, in the year 1021, than the Government had
in 1792.
---

Resolved—That it is the opinion of this House, that,
under the present cirritnistatices of the country, it is ex-
pedient to make a large reduction in the amount and
expenditure of its Military Establishments, and to ap-
proximate as soon as possible to the Establish oent of
1792, as recommended by the Finance Coutinittee of
1517."
Sir R. WILSON, in seconding the Resolutions,
bore testitnony to the improved and flourishing state
of the Cape of liood Hope, when taken by the British.
though the inhabitants had previously received no
assistance from the mother country.
The question was then put on Ilume's :leso-
. lotions, and negatived without a dif:sion.
'the SPEAKER was about to put the question for
his !twin,- the Chair, when
Mr. lII' ME stated, that it was his iotention to have
divided the House on the last Reso!ution;
The SPEAK ER observed, that there was no Fissible
remedy for the difficulty iu which the House was
placed after the vote it had already come to, than that
lof pntting a negative on the motion for his leaving
the Chair. If the wish of the Hon. 6ellee:11:111 was
to insert his Itosolotions on the Journals of the House,
that certa;illy could not be effected in the Committee,
but it could or thus britigiog up of the Report.
r. TI ERNEY !Imagist that the bringing up of the
Report would not aituall an oppoettuaty for the insertion
of the Resolutio:is, 43 the Resolutions of the Committee
which they were intended to cppose must by that time
live been agreril to. The better nay, he conceived,
would het', wove an adjournment of the question al-
to::: titer until Monday, instead of entering on a sub-
ject so important to the country at that late hour of
nit ht.—(llear.) _
Lord, PALMERSTON was ofopinion that the object

ing Isis Resolutions before the ItepertoftbeCoussuittee
was brought up.
After a few observations from Mr. J. P. Grant aid
Colonel Davies, in favour of postponement, and from
the Chancellor of the Hacheqster against it, Mr. 11.
A. laylur moved that the House should then adjourn.
Lord CAS FLBREAtiII acquiesced in the propriety
of acce,lint; to the motion.
'1 he SPEAKER observed, fiat if the understand-
in:: of the House was, that the question should be
bought forward on Monday, the only way of pro-
viding for that, was to withdraw the question sit ad-
junrousent upon such an understaudi it;, and them fix
the t unisnittee fur that day. If an adjournment was
to take place without such an • rantmment, the ques-
tion could not be brought forward on Monday.
Mr. M. A. TAILOR consented to withdraw his
motion on the understandiug proposed, upon which
the Cominittee was appointed for %Imlay.
(In the motion 'of Mr. Serjeant ONSI,OIV, the
Irish Treason fill was read a first time, arid ordered
to he read a second time on the 22d of this month.

The other Orders of the thy were then disposed
of, and the House adjourned at half-past twelve to
Monday.

Anil

L.. -.. v.- - -.." ' - -

didd
place. Re was satisfied the Editor of The Morning lie-
,ad mast have been it=tr, or he not have
given insertion to the f . If an, Magistrate or
any Minister, said the Alderman, shall he allowed to
bring a single soldier into the City without the consent
of the Chief Magistrate, we may soon expect to see ten
thousanell—(llear, hear.)
THE ERECTION OF BUILOINGS ON THE WHARFS.
ON THE BANKS OF THE THAMES.
A Report from a Committee, to whom it had been re-
ferred, to take into consideration a notice that bad been
given in the House of Commons be Mr. Calvert, of his
intention to bring a Rill into Parliament to repeal tl:e
Act of the 22l of Charles 11. by which it is enacted that
a public walk of 40 fret wide shall be kept open alor.-
the north sole of the River Thames from London Bridge
to the Temple, was then read; which Report MOW-
mended that the Corporation should petition the House
of Cotnmons to he heard by Counsel against the Oil!.
Mr. Deputy Lre.ts observed that the Act of Charles
had been constantly infringed on, and the Vorporatiou
had appropriated so much of the ground it Was intended
to keep open that they now had an inewne of 10,11G01. A
year from this source and even part of Fishmonger's
Hall was built on it ; nor lead any objection ever been
made to these infringements SU Messrs.Calverts dia what
so many others had done before them.
Mr. tiatrerrns said, the City bad not itself infrieged
on the Act, but had been negligent of its duff, whicit
was to oppose the infringements of others. In Cells"-
quence of this neglect, the Adams's were allowed to in-
fringe so greatly as they bad done; but the real cause of
all this neglect hetetofort was, the want of union between
the Aldermen and Common-Conneiluien. lie hoped.
however, to see the day when Aldermen and COIllmoll•
Councilmen would amte together like man and wife.. -
(Breit Laughter.)
Mr. DIXON remarked, that if the Aldermen and Com-
mon Council should not agree better than a man and
wife, who hail lately °entitled a street deal of their at-
tention, it would not he very desirable that such a union
as his friend recommended should take place: He was
sorry the Corporation had received a retinue from the
infringements on the Act of limeys, but still thought
they hail a right to call on those persons who bad hail;
iu siotation of that Art to surrender, and that tli.dy
should prevent any farther encroachment.
Mr. Taviant thought it was no: good te:.soning, that
because the Corporation had infringed on the Art of
Charles themselves, they should therefore connive at the
infringes] ant of others. No encroachment was mans
I frequent than that of appropriating public. ground ; and
if it were permitted in this instance, iii a little time we
slia!l not be able to get a sight of the Thames.
Mr. PEACOCK said, the fact notoriously nag. that the
Act hail been disregarded, and Messrs. Calvert wily
sought to do that lea!ly, nlsklt has long been dune il-
legally.
Mr. SLOE con!cn led that if the I. court •do not poi-
Son agaimit the proposed Hill, Parliament will Hat uraVy
saw they are indlitferent.
',lr. 'CROCKER said, that Messrs. Calvert. Lis!, I
of a public nay to a public wharf, had
.put up I.rivat
gates, as if it was their own property.
Mr. Ileacunne asked, with what grace could the Cor-
poration go to Parliament, being themselves this
and greatest transgressors.
Mr. l'Anotitcoss, in additiott to the same argainra...
said, new, when orptvards of a million was esp. (idled iu
building, they wish to present &slight alteration being
made;
Han Trarroina:e said, if there could lie a•I
of ever obtaining the round for a quay, that
_a contemplated in the Act of Charles, lie woubl
thing to realise 151 inft-Ir teas hopeless. lie
'opposed tom mail, if he could Mow awes, with his breaLlt
the buildings, of the value of two millions, that wero
erected on the ground intended to be kept open, woolil
be bold enough to do it; anti it was useless to the public
to ethleavone to keep open tha little that now remained.
which was less than a twentieth part of the whole. If
individuals were aggrieved, they might defend them-
selves; but he omit see more than had yet been show 3
him, before lie could agree to any interfere:see by t:.O
Court. _ _

Mr. limas said, if they had been negligent of th:•r
trust, they should now like men of honour retrieve tht
errors and perform their duty.
Mr. T. N. Wiwasts exprested his surprise at .%;-
&Titian Waithinan's 'tiling. that if individuals ive.:%!
aggrieved they might have their private remedy.—
The Court were bound to protect their constituents, al
if they had heretofore. been negligent, it was incumbe:it
on them to Mono tor their errors. _ _

The Report of the Committee n as then agreed to tvit!►-
out a division. Awl a petition la the Honer of Com.
mons, praying to be heard by Counsel against the
was read and agreed to. Attar which it was resolved,
that the City li..presewatives, amid smirk other Menshers
of the Corporation as are Aleut hers of Parliament, shuld
be requested to support tbc same.