The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-04-25 00:00:00

TEE sTATESMIN.

Iti rime
unset
a! agtidi
deexac ittd tntee e ePe" tcrtii:‘'ltit',l:ol'
. . .
was an absolute theory. lie. would ask, in reply to whose hands the Governmeet was--...........eeeeea5i
those enlightened speculators, who would separate possessed the coni
Earl STANIIOPE rose to mo've the second made
trle'efusnebottoio:o' opportunityelsliQdri,irtitheber onl,e:.(1:::
ing of his Bill—For Betteting the Condition of the
Peasantry and Tenantry of Great Britain and Ire- them!: • Could. Roman Catholic Chancellors, Roman of the country ;
teed. He prefaced the motion with a variety of oh- Catholic rrivy Councillors, and a Roman Catholic Imseolroesit;;lle'oss rtehfatitisteo
Mr. YORKE would not occupy the timei of 1(1.
: tl,',est4rlinatmmenotnabrecheoyTidlleereudasfusituhrfeatlbgautanrodtilaiinnsgocfoauiPdrbei.
servntioes, explanatory of the grounds,tititeulGerasftoirici:
ing the arguments he had advanced in,
strolls, as the causes of his introducing, and the res., ' moreat heart with Catholics, if they were sincere, than House long, and in what he had to sun, h. ,h„l i'l'de
sons for inducing their Lordships to age." to the Bill, . the extinction of the Protestant Religion. When he endeavour to use the same temper and. m eoode;n
as an effectual remedy for a eery great and shanleful', looked at the genius of Catholicism, at the exclusive which the Honourable Gentleman who split, 'la"'
grievance.. Durirgee .part of his speech,.the N 010 i spirit with
.which it was WWII, Andethe gnneral had adopted, as well upon that occasioe as upon el!
Earl produced much risibility, by his remarks on a principle it adopted, namely,' that there was no sal- others. if lie thought the conce- icets noe &sire(
letter which lie read, ns part of his former-sPeechs .1 'ration out of the pale of the church ; he must say could let vented without danger, he had every o
g ,‘al
being the sentiments of a great lawyer on the sub- i that they were not safe hands to be entrusted with the feeling towards his brethren in I retand ; but ha
jectein a letter to another person on the subject, and 1 care of the Establithedßeligion. As to what had been could !thew cehnimed. that siangn would not arise
which contained opinions in favour of what he was said respecting the Church of Scotland, it bore no ap- I from the measure, and he would confess, though
: vented him from „looking at the great measure en'',
about to advance. The name of the Great Lawyer !plication whatever to the Catholic Churcit,for there was not a Weot, that he was ander that cloud '• h -
e his pee
l ' h
who wrote it, be then declined stating, but he now I a spirit in all branches of protestantism weir allied
declared it to be the letter of a Noble and Learned i them near to each Other, and rendered each less dan- : out the fear of very . (Mat consequences. lie coa' I
Lord opposite (liedesdale). After 'expatiating on ! gerous to the rest. They had to decide upon one of : nat bet consider it as a departure from Oa ft, ye,:
the hijessice of suffering the law to remain as at pre- two propositions, whether nil religions were the ; mental hews of the realm. It had been asserted. th.tt
sent, through which the occupying tenantrywere so
I. same, and entitled to the same encouragement ; or i there was nothing tat the Bill.of Rights which hel ee
much oppressed in* Ireland, 'and referring to a tract , whether, if one was preferable to another, it might , lalion. to the reemah-Catholie Religiott ; but he
on the subject by the Hon. Colonel Dillon, some ! not be unsafe to trust it into the hands of those who ' thought that part hi the Bill 43 f Rights whist pro.
communications from the Noble Viscount, his father, 1 weie devoted to its desfeuetion ? When it came to i vided foretheteltgions-ef -tiresMossarch and esstaaca
and the excellent pamphlet of Counsellor O'Dedy I be a question how far the secuzities we had should be Papists, or ,those married to Pap m th
istS, froe
on the tubject, in illustration of his positions, the given np,it was a grave consideration for every man's , throne, had reference to that religion;and might Its
Noble Earl moved, that the Bill be now read a se-1 own mind, it was easy to compose a deciaMltion, ! considered a. fundamental Jaw of the realm. lie
cond time.
, - , l thought not of so briiliaot a description as they had wenld not go the leneth of eivink,
that the Ulnae
Loud REDF..4DALE, after censuring the conduit heard upon this subject; there were general priti- tweet any farther indulgeeca to the Cathelies. nee
of the person who communicated, for such a purpose, cipies, plausible in theory, but injurious in the the measure could not be agreed -to; unless the ab-
a letter confidentially written, and contending that' practical application, on which it was not difficult to settee of danger were proved ; and thee/me/wee:ma
nothing he had advanced in the former discussions' make a display ; but he would refer every man to lay upon those who asserted, that on such danger
clashed with the principles and positions in that let-1 his own historical reflection, to determine bow far existed. If the claims were to be reaeted at se,
ter, said,' he should not oppose the motion, but, fort power conferred upon such a-sect would he likely to certainly the Itomp.n Catholics of England ought to
his part, suffer the Bill to go into a Committee, where! promote those interests to which he was attached by , lie preferred, for they had invariably behaved in the
lie would be happy to contribute, if at all, legallyt education and conviction. They were told, that, Co - most quiet and etemplary manner. [Hear, hear!]
practicable, any way to alleviate the evils complained'. accede to the motion, would have a tendency to re- But they could not listen to the claims ; if they were
of ; but the Bill, as it now. stood, instead of allevi- eaticile the minds of the people. In his opinion, the acceded to, it 'would be doing away the laws cf.
atittg, would, Ile thought, go to aggravate those' tendency would be directly the reverse; the Come' England. Tire fundamental laws of our Coestita.
evils. . . . . ;', mittee would be a fund for party questions add in- lion, more especially those which were for the in.
The LORD CHANCELLOR shortly expres ' Ilammatory matter. In all civilised countries, some , mediate protection of the Cnurch, pronounced el.
his coincidences in the opinions held bN bis Noble an : religion must be secured in the predominance; and $ elusion to the Catholics. Tira true way of consider.
Learned Friend, and observed their Lordships shout ! whatever they might say of the benevolence of man- t ing the question it seemed was, to ascertain the
consider well before they agreed to a measure which kind, and the mild spirit of religion, as long as hue ! greatest difficulty ; now, he thought, the greatest
went to overturn a great part of. the law of landlord man nature continued to be wit it was, religious : difficulty was on the side of acceding to the Roman
and tenant, in England, Scotland, and Ireland.' parties would become political parties. Parties of . Catholic denteeela...../twas saidrhowever,." go into a
Time should be allowed for the purpose of furtive ' this description were the most virulent and danger- 4 Committee !" Ne'e he would not go-into a Com.
enquiry and consideration of the subject. , ous,. as they were not confined to the higher classes , mittee, because, by so .doiiti,r,. it would be holding
Earl STA.NHOPE shortly explained. , i alone, but extended their influence' to every indi- out an underetantintonat something was to Int done.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL seemed much Lin.: vidual in the State. Another argument insisted on rlf there were difficulties, such a proceeding would
pressed with what had fallen from the Noble and was, that-Ireland would be. lost if concessions were 1 increase them. 'bite great and the hitherto irre.
Learned Lords on the subject, and under such im- not made. But how was he to understand this i movable difficulty was,, the tenets of the Roman Ca.
pressions, proposed to defer the Committee on the threat ? Did the allegiance of the Hon.. Gentlemen tholics. From them danger was to be inferred, sines
Bill until that day two months. sit so loose upon them as to permit them to decline they still continued what they were centuries ago.—
Earl STANIIOPE objected to so long an interval, ! the defence of the State in such an event? if so, he' He listened to what had been said, bat no one had
as by far too late a period for &slue consideration of , must be permitted to say, that so far from being an ! ventured to say tint they were not the same. To be
the Bill this Session. He thought a month would be ' argument in favour of the privileges demanded, it sure they had heard a geed deal • about the Roman
amply sufficient. To this the Noble Secretary of I went directly in the other way i
. If their loyalty Catholic opinions, but ha would ask the Honourable
end.. le loose about them; they should be the last ' Baronet (sir Joke Cox Ilippeslay ), whether they Lid
__ . . __.

State assented, and the Bill was accordingly commit-
ted for this day month.
The Bills upon the table were then respectively
forwarded', and their Lordships adjourned till Mon-
day.

/ j,
not continue I llad the Church of Rome been done
away with—had they ahrogatcd any of those tenets ?
—[ Yes,
,yrs ! said Sir J. Hippesky, rto-oil the
table.]—flow was the fact:provet• but,ad,nitting that
those tenets were gone, who could give security
that those tenets would not be revived ? [llear!)
But he would deny that any regular abrogation of
those tenets by the see of Rome had ever taken
place. The dangerous and objectionable tenets stilt
existed —by the see of Rome they had never been
abrogated. Ile would state to the House some of
the grounds oil which he ventured to maintain that
the tenets of all true Catholics now were what thejr
had been for ages.. Soon afteibe—entered Parlia.
latent, he was led to applaudllie,Bal brought in by
Lord Redesdale, for-extending the privileges of the•
Constitution to the Eoglish Roman Catholics ;• but
he altered- his opinion of the measUre,, from what
subsequently occurred. By that Bill an oath was
prescribed, and it 'Wesigreed. to' on the part of those
whew-ere to take it. ,So soon, however, as the oath
came to tle:knowledge of the Vicar' Apostolic, he
condemned.•it, and eejoined all those for whom it
was meant, not to take it. The Apostelic Vicar de•
ttostitiatttereprttrdottitcocid-mert be
taken hty. the' -of. the clergy or of
the laity-tha.t the " faithful" could take uo oath
whatever. Now Whit. was the oath proposed, and
which was condemned by this Vicar Apostolic I Why,
it stated that it was thereby sworn that the " Pope.
could not absolve their allegiance from his Majesty."
Such was the teuour of the oath, yet such an oath
could not be taken, said the see of Rome. To show
that the tenets of the Catho.i.:s still continued what
they formerlY Were,. ho (Mr. Yorke) did nut consult
ancient lore ; he quoted the; wevks of moderns—of
enlightened men. In passing, .hocould not but re-
marks that *the Popish .Church of 'lreland had bean
more devoted to head—to thr Pope, than that of
any, other country, aye, much more thou the Churrlt
of either France or hair. banger there could not
but be apprehended from the • Catholics if all the
pri-
vileges of the Constitution were extended
_to then.
• If further proof were wanting of the complete &-
I
aoSiOn of .the [kaftan Catholic laity to their CZlerev
—to the See of, home,. iltin what the Vicar Alms-
'
• Colic afforded, subsequent event had brought to his
- mind. thorough conviction on tat, subjnt. 'rho Veto
arrangement afforded the ground of that conviction.
The Catholic Laltycbaseuted to give the Veto--they
never objected to if; but their Bishops -eid not ap-
prove of it, and 'no sooner dtu teey eprar agni;:st
the Veto, than it totally diSappearrd.—`-y,
Why, coold there be a Mill" ftl.6il 0 prop:` it ti:e
cemplie dominion that the Clergy s over
their Catholic laity? The laity were stir "`^m•+
they still remained corripleely (levet( d to tlm.:r Pri's!s
and Popes. Here was a' pretty ccoed Four; to',
that the oaths were sf. some consequence is the e-ti-
motion of the pope. The Pope was now a
..lAA no one lead ever heard the opit.i-ott cf Fsh
.Catholic Clergy, in the event of IL sproj:;:-
ing astrccessor. In the crept of therohe. ;moter
Pope norn!riated by*Our inveterate enemy Booaparte,
Catholic•Clerav stilt deem their

iung so loos 'Y
persons entrusted with political power. The ques-
tion, he thought, should be laid asleep one way or
other, and while he gave credit to the Hon. Gentle-
men on the other side, for their attention to the pub-
lic quiet while, in office, by omitting to bring for-
ward this question, he trusted their sentiments would
not change with change of situation, and that on re-
flection they would see the impropriety of pressing-it
forward at present.
Mr. ELLrorr .agreed fully in the veneration ex-
pressed by the Right lion. Gentleman for the Uni.
versity of Oxford, and thought the delay of thefr
present Petition' an additional claim to approbation,
by
_signifying the march of truth and reason in this
great cause. lie disclaimed all notion of discussing
the merits of the question upon the ground of ab-
stract right. This question, lik% all others, dep:nd-
ed on advantages and disadvantages, on benefits and
dangers.. The arguments against the claims of the
Catholics might be reduced to three classes : first,
theZanger to be apprehended from granting them ;
secondly, the constitutional objections; and; third-
ly, the doubt which was entertained of their effi-
Cary, in case they should be granted. The changes
Which had of late years taken place in the world'
had rendered tho.danger considerable. There were
no longer any apprehensions from the Pretender, &c.
and as to the doubt which some. persons entertained
of their Oaths, the proposal of an °ILKt as a proteh-
, tion against their alleged disregard of them, was ra-
ttier a clumsy expedient. The opiniOns of the Pro-
testants of freland were now on the table of the
House, and the advancement of the Catholics in pow-
er, wealth, and consequence, rendered their case
still more worthy of consideration. One argument
had been resorted to on a former Occasion, which
. •
made a great impression on his mind, and that was,
the assertion that the Union was a bar to the mea-.
sure. For the propriety of this position he would'
refer them to the whole history of the • trans-
action, to the Fourth Article of the Union,
and to the expectations which ' were excited,.,
and by- means of which additional facility was
given to the passing of the measure. Under such
circumstauces, to turn round and.soy, the Union. was
a bar to concession, was impolitic, „imprudent, unge-
nerous, and unjust. lie Was told by some tbat_.the
'mass of the population was indifferent to it, and from
others he heard the reverse : but when reasoning for
himself, he saw the narked distinctions in force ; he
could not believe that they had.not ,wisk to parti-
cipate in the rights and privileges of the constitution.
He then entered into a detail of all the exclusions un-.'
der Which- they. laboured io the army and navy. and
at the bar, and maintained that they ought. to go into
a Committee.. Before they could, decide what se-
' curities would be necessary, they child(' have the in-.,
formation of those who were mast. conversant With
the tenets of the religion, which.could only be done
in a Committee of the whole house. lie wished to
settle country as powerrhl as Possible, Stitt for that
purpose be would recommend, that the Church
should throw open wider doors of to'eration. They
: .
*lid depend, that by the present system they did.not
make -

one proselyte from the Catholic religion—they ' would the R0`..1311
Might Mike a chasm in the mind whie't. they could allegiance due to that Pope ?. If :welt a ncm;nat:on
not upat,tbey pleased—they might destroy those were to !a'ze .place, would not the Pope be crae-
Ima!erialsi of which they might have constituted* a pletely at the Will of Bonaparte When s•Jch
ur' ht
tower. ofstrentk; tut could accomplish n - be the case, lie (Mr. YorLe) had a to go;id
.thingfor.tbegood of aocietylbr persevoiing in so er- against approaching danger. Ile should not chccse
With respett to, the elution to that Bonaparte should be the keeper of the conscievc-A
ive=stitiliblOAltoo4 the.did was ,to keep off of threr.,..fourtbs, of the people of Ireland.—[to. d
:r
•,kiteossimitseocitsfilse prajtatliices lEttown es** ilcar hear!] Locke and I;l3.cl:stone both
301144.110bot,ic,.ask,..imalf4kosso_artiloso who Wisi thought that 'the .Roman Catholics could . eat
tiosassiiass4ilatisoilesimacisit4hiscisseot:was ; wish any Gosernassit except that of. Rome ; that
*.Dll4"liallPiete°l4ll*Fl4l4l'l4.. 111"tilailtaiiieltiAti-..Atilielr oaths they -tress " lifted up against other,

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