The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-06-17 00:00:00

THE .STATESMAM

want--eanothet had exported a quantity of Ceffin fur:
eiture, When in fact the inhabitants had not en idea
of burying their dead with furniturettnother sent
sedan chairs which they did not Want. But the fact "
was, the increasing trade to that part was profitable.
The Honourable Gentleman was a little wrong in his
caloulation of the exports of iron from Birmingham.
The witnesses had stated that the whole amount of
the exports of that article from all parts of the coun-
try was not more than 740,0001. so that in fact' hen
be stated 1,200,0001 at the share of Birmingham,
he overstepped the mark, and either the witnesses
most be right, or the Custom-house wrong. If. the
Witnesses were right, then it followed of course that
the exports-were more than the returns made by the
Custom-hires& 'With respect to the maritime riglite
of the country, the Honourable Gentleman had been
liberal is admitting those rights,, but that admission,,
Was tendered merely for' he purpose of inducing the
Home to give up the Orders in Council. Bet these
orders were not farther persevered toe. the sake
of maintaining. those rights as against America,
bat against France. As to the commerce frith
America, the truth was, Is the lion: Gentleman
stated, that they had manufactures of their own, and
this country was dec.sivetl, if much was expected.-
The Hon. Gentleman had tithed of victories at Tale. I
tern and Corunna, bat what had- those sictories te
do with the trade to America. If the repeal of the
Orders in Cannel) wis agreed to, then, indeed, the i
victory spoken of rroald main with France. The
Right Mtn. pentlirlissi then proceeded to detail the
evidence as it bore in fivour of the system. A great
deal of it was norpfinted, and for that reason he had
been anxious for delaying the consideration. The
petitioners were prepared; they had arranged their
rise methndically, which facilitated it. They had
printed and circulated new evidence. Bat he had
not been able to reed the immense volume so as to
fize4 itr contents. Under the first head of cowgirl--
eel arrangements stood iron ; and in respect to the
state of the men employed in that manufacture, he
had no doubt there were numbers out of employ, and
if the measure was repealed, they would experience
immediate relief. He assured the House, that if re-
sistance was held out to the repeal—that resistance
proceeded from the strong sense of duty which he en-
tertained. lie could have no other view, for be I
should not have much longer the management of the
Board of Trade. Ile was firmly perseaded, that if
the trade was opened, its continuance could- not be
ensured. The next head wet that of nails ; and here
there was a contrariety of evidence; for one witnes‘
stated, that the warehouses of Liverpool well
when anot Irer (M r. liornley) declared they were not
full. A Mr. Fog stated, that Ike trade to America
acceded the whole of the trade to the other parts:l
that statement he (Mr. R.) much doubted—for the'
iron exported to America was about' one-sixth, or
700,0001.; whereas, in fact, the whole of the ex. i
ports in that article amounted to two millions. Ile I
contended that the exports from the Continent rival.l
led our manufactures, and were sold at a cheaper
rate. This information he drew from various parte
of the evidence; He defended the conduct of the I
witness alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman, as has.-
ing spoken disrespectfully of the labouring mane-
facturers. All that the witness meant was, that the
di-trrm was os so great as was apprehended.—
With respect to the pottery, the number of crates
exported within the last year, amounted to twenty.
three thousand more than in the four preceding
years, and the decrease which existed pteviously to
that period, arose from the non-importation to bo-
la:A, in oonsequence of the nii,constroction of an
Act of Parliament, by which a duty was claimed up-
on the article. If the Orders in Council were re-
pealed, end the Berlin and Milan Decrees left to
stand, America would have the otlvantage of the car.
iying trade to.the North of Europe, and France
would be enabled to export her Iron-work, her
linen, silks, cloth, &r. and to bring back in return
the raw materials, a eirconistatice, which would con.:
duce strongly to assist her in rivalling our manufac.
tue.s. We should in fact -by such a step assist to
the utmost of our power in giving complete effect to
the measures and the policy of France. But the
efficacy of the Orders in Council was to .be seen,
note iths/anding all representations to the contrary,
in their practical effects upon the commerce of the
enemy. It was a fact which could aot•be denied,
that the exports from France to America had de.
creased nine millions from the year 1803 to 1811.—
In the Canada trade, it appeart4 upon the erie
deuce of Sir Alexander M'Kenzie, that the ton-i
tinge of ships in 1804 amounted to 33,0001. and in
1811 to 116,0001. lie then went into a minute re.
capitulation and comparison of the evidence, from
which he inferred that the Mediterranean trade was
greatly improved, that the south American trade was
also improring, and that the injury supposed to have
been experienced in this lattpr branch, arose merely,
and applied exclusively' to specelatire adventurers,
who were obliged to well off immediately, at a loss.
As to the shipping interests, which formed so &eat
an object in the consideration of this questien, be ,
was convinced that if the Orders-in Council were to
be repealed to-morrow, they would not have one
ship more afloat than they had at present, but on the
contrary ; for the immediate tendency and operation
of the repeal would be, to throw one-third or one-
fourth of our carrying trade into the hands of Ame-
rica. The result, therefore, of all the facts which
he had been able to collect, was, that with the
exception of that burst of trade to South Ame-
Ara, which took. place in 1809, and 1810, the
shipping interests were never so prosperous as now.
Four-fifths of the trade of Glasgow were in favour
of the Orders in Council. It had been stated by
one of the witnesses, that the shipping of Liverpool,
a part supposed to suffer peculiarly under the exist-
ing eystem, was fully employed; -and upon a fair
view of the matter, that the number of shipping had
been doubled in the course of the last twelve years.
The evidence bore him oat in stating, that.the trade
to the South of Europe had increased in a propor-
tion to compensate for what bad been lost in the
North since the adoption of those measures, so that,
on a fair balauce, the general commerce of the coun-
try had suffered nothing, He had already stated
that four-fifths of the merchants of Glasgow were
in favour of the Orders an Coencil. To this be
would add, that a great pail of the trading interests
of Liverpool supported the same, that Bristol was
unauimoga is * apprt*Gon of the policy by

which they were dictated,' and that a large portion
of the merchants of London maintained the same
Opinion. Mr. Glennie, of the how of Chenille and Co.
and another, were the only Witnesses from that quar-
ter who gave evidence agaiastlhe Orders in Council ;
and it was to be observed, that that House bad some .
American Agencies. which might have imperceptibly :
Influenced their judgment. In-addition to the bodies ,
he had already enumerated, heethonld not neglect, to 1
state that the whole body of the Shipping interest
were against the repeal. Upon the subject of the '
mistakes in the granting of Licences, imputed to the
Board of Trade, he should content himself with
barely stating, that one error had occurred in the I
space of five years, and that tlie Board had manifest- I
ed every disposition and anxiety to correct it. Upon
the whole, he could assert, that if he felt that the
repeal of the Orders in Council would be a benefit
to the country, there was no man !ising who would
I,e mere willing In support it. But, being impressed
'with the opposite conviction, he felt it his duty to
resist the attempt.
,s
Mr. BARING began by observing, that though
the present subject was one of the most important
That bad ever come before thew, yet from the little
disposition which many Members bad shown to at-
tend to the question, he feared that what he should
say upon it would hardly meetwith much attention.
The question had been amply discussed in the eery
able speech of his Hon. and Leagued Friend, which
a ppetereeto Mm alntbst ottittfailled by anyhd had ever
heard id that House.' Yet still a great deal of new
and untouched ground was :eft for discussion. The
first consideration which struck him was, theta de- i
gree of 'distrees was now experienced among the Ma-
nufacturers of this country, which no man could
pretend to disguise, and which was unpreccdcated in
magnitude and severity. Wes this distress, or was
it not, attributable to the Orders in Council ? If it
was, the next question wcull be, whether any bene-
fits had arisen from these measures, I%ltich compen-
sated for the distresses which were experienced.
—The Right Honourable Gentleman Lad ac--
knowledged, what indeed could not be denied,
that our manufacturers were in a very distressed si-
tuation : and the point which he (Mr. B.) had now
"to arguefewas, that these distresses were connected
with the Orders ia Council as their cause. If he
failed in shewing this connection, then he should
not be justified in supporting their repeal. As the
first link of connection, he should spew that the dis-
tresses of the manufacturers originated in the want
of American• intercourse ; and it would hadily be
admitted, that the shutting of this intercourse wns
caused by our commercial Decrees. 'I he Right Hon.
Gentleman had complained that the manufacturing
workmen had been industriously taught to believe
that their distresses, proceeded from the Orders in
Couttcil, and that their minds were thus heated 1
against their on n Government. But the master mat:
nufacturers who appeared at the Bar of the House
were vc;y l'ar trent being ignorant or uninformed
men. On the contrary, they were most of them in
a very large way of business, employing at an are-
rage 500 people each ; and they nod displayed a de-
gree of general information, which must have excited
both surprise and satisfaction, and whica was accom-
panied with the most minute knowledge of their
own branches of r ,iufacture. The u,.iform re-
preseetati.:n of these eighty individuals examined
at the lite., from Birmingham, Sheffield, Man-
che ter, Leeds, &c. was, that all their workmen
were in a state of unexampled distress. Wha(
was the proportion of the manufactures which
they had been ie the habit of sent!i4 to Ame 1
rica, as compared with what they produced for
other markets ? It appeared, that from one-tnird to
one-half. and even two-thirds of the whole trade
of the places he had enumerated was cOriveed to
tho American market. This, they stated; had en-
tirely
rea4etl, and,the stoppage of the American de-
mand had of coursegreatly,injured the home market.
These witnesses had also told us of the immense
stocks which they had aceumulatede and of the num-
ber
of hands_which they had been obliged to turn off;
•
with this most important addition, that they wily '
waited the decision of the House on the present
question to determine, whether they sheet() dismiss
or retain the remainder. [Hear, hear I Oa the
deterinination of the house that night, depended the
discharge or employment of many thousand work-
' men. This afforded ample ground for serious deli-
-1 beratioo ; and the benefits arising from the Orders in
entail should be clearly understood, before their
i:untinuance was resolved upon, which could not
fail to be attended with such increasing hardships.—
From a variety of information which he had received
from the manufacturing districts, he was justified in
saying, that if the House did not come to a favour-
able decision, it would be the duty of Government
to take the strongest pieeautions for preserving the
1 peace is many of those districts which hitherto had not
been the seat of disturbance, and where the workmen
had been kept in good kumout by the judicious ma.
nagement of the masters, and the hopes which they
held out of an alteration for the better. It was quite evi-
dent that thetlistressed districts had, in general, been
the most disturbed. In the West of England,where the
I clothing manufacture did mot seem to be affected,
1 there had been no disturbance. Neither had there
been.any disposition to disorder in the metropolis,
because it was not the seat of manufactures, and the
I great mass of the labouring classes had therein to-
lerable employment. Ile was then entitled to ay,
that the disturbances were connected with the dis-
tresses of the manufacturers, and that the distresses
originated in the want of the American market.-'
The necessity of an armed force in the centre of the
country,—the existence of a set of disaffected per-
sons in the very heart of our manufacturing districts
s--all these circumstances should form the strongest
induceMent with Government to give this most im-
portant question their serious consideration. It was
quite evident that the witnesses examined at the bar
were convinced, that the opening of the American
Itrade would restore employment to their workmen; in
fact, they held all other channels of commerce quite
1 cheap in comparison of that of which they. taulbeea
deprived. The American trade had every feature that
could make it valuable to a manufacturing nation. It
was a market constantly increasing, affording safe and
1
quick Wares; and Ohne it furnished the raw ma-
terials, it took back the manufactured articles in
return. Undoubtedly the manufacturing interests of
this country were most interested is this market.

Thashipping and the thercandleintere'sts had no such hasty discussiod t question Mtn which nee More *
immediate tOtineetion with it; but he would assert, vital uever came before the consideration of parries
that thelate petition, in favour of the orders in Coun- ment. In the first place, then, he had to deprecate
cil, did not express the sense of the great body of the the subMittieg lte it vote of Parliament a question
merchants of London. As to Mr. Glesufre, he was • which invofred the deepest interest of our Etapire, es
Berry that the Right lion. Gent, had affected to repre- i connected with our marieme riehts, while neenciat ion,
sent that respectable merchant, as having a strong I were pending between our Governtnent and that of
personal interest in the connection with America. It i another iountry, Such cbnduct was loans lets than
*as true he bad acted as agent for the American navy, I an attempt to dictate to the Executive ; and nothing,
bet probably had not cleared one hundred pounds he would contend, could he mere Abhorrent front the
,by his. transactions in that capacity. The great power and practice of Parliament, IVhen he stated
intint insisted bison by the Gentlemen opposite, was, this, he considered that he gate a sufficient answer to
thdtif the ports of France were 'open, she would i the Hon. Gentleman who had enquired why toe cur-
se out hseurpmplayn ufofacratuwresm, aand teriraeicee . ivit inw etuasr,forrn
iann.
i, res
Thrnd,
production
alluded
twascorrneostpnpnlacdeenteleo t f
could le
thavetable.
•stance, said, that Cuba would send her sugars to I tended only to the embarrassment of the natioesl
France, and receive in'return her manufactures. It I couneils. As to the general question, he was net
was not certainly very liberal to fount! any system of !Inclined to deny that the Hurl. Gentlemen
oar's on the distress of an ally's trade, and in limine! ant tt grave Case of nationaloSisttesslri had de
from
singmathe
he begged to protest against it; but by the evidence ' depression of several branches of our trade; he
of even an Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. ! would even admit, that* the evidence went to prove
Marryaft), did it appear that our Orders in Conn •il I that those branches of trade were likoly to sutler still
were efficacious' in preventing France from sending !greater depression, if the Orders in Council should
out het manufactures even to Calta ? By his evidence I not be repealed ; but When he admitted this' he would
it appeared, that three cargoes of Continental silks not have the House consider that he consented to the
and linens had been sent net there in 1809, while we proposition that we were so deplorably distressed ns
sent but one. The French in fact brought out silks to have 'stud reason for eontemplatine the decay and
so cheaply during the operation of the Orderi in ' destruction of our commerce. The distress was par-
Council, that our's had no chance of being sold. .It tial; and here he must say of the Gentlemen with
, was therefore evident, that our commereo toe time whom he hadscommonicated on the Wits& of thd
part df the world could not be rendered worse hen* Orders in Council, and who were amongst the suffer•
it was under these Orders by any commercial regttla. 1 ers from their operation, that no persons could look
tion whatever. The Hon. Gentleman th'n contend- to them with a more liberal feeling for the general in:
eel, that it was absurd for us to fear a rivalry in ma- terests of their cou try, or world entertain a more die+
nufactures from France. Those who were examined,. passionate consideration of them. It was argued that
as to this point answered, that If there was free trade ' if we repealed the Orders in Council, we should hate
they would not lie afraid of a rivalry in any country! the American market in exchange for that teseel.—
in the world. Thus,. thee, It was- certain, that as-to l Ile did not think it fair for America to extort seek
Cuba, the -Brazils, and our 'Americitn• (rides,' the ten abrogation from es, when Owe considered that our
Orders in Councili: instead of. heing.itseful.,';*were el4commercial regelations,wefe comnenced in retaliation
together mischievous.• With respectto .the esitteneelegainet theellesesotic sesiem of ,Frence, and that such
on the Other side; there was hothiog asked hilt Ogg- ; retaliation iushtt;hive been rither.aSiisted than op.
tions of opinion; Mr. Finley, of Glasgow and the . posed hybet. e should, 'indeed, be asitamed to
111
other Gentlemen who were examined on the other avow, theX Of. sriters in Council were ever a matter
side, spoke even .as far as they. , eetated facts, against of mere cimetiertial'pofiCy. They were not. They
the Orders. They admitted, that a considerable de- . sprung from tk.'
,rittap4e Orotiposition to Ira neel
Ix
pression of trade had taken place, and on the whole . and' ratittg)Ser. in. tlps system of misrule, which
it seemed as if the Government had been merely she endetiioureck Atte Iti. ,through Europe. They
lb 'idi
.
looking out for two or three stout fellows to make were iteenik aictemillof spinet by the very means
speeches and. give opinions.—Picor /I—There' Was ' which, she herself riesS brought into action. And
another point to which he would call the-attention of whe Gould say tha"in thilpotnt,theyhad been Una
the Rouse. In consequence of the sncpension of oar `.successful ?--:-(ffeer,lir —We would contend for
intercourse with America; it was stated in the esi.. it, that no country in thasestoeld wits ever more corn.
dents that a particular branch of our tradee-t he cotton mercially depressed than If ratice had beenby the ow+
trade—had suffered materially, and that if the sus pen- ration of these very.Orde; in enuncil —Weer , hear 1
sion continued for three years more, it never could be from both side* of the Iffiuse.)—Fresin the French
renewed. It never should be forgotten that our own 'documents. themselves thiefact appeared. The mull,
trade originally owed much to the bigotry &other Goo .internal consumption of France, with her peptises
.vernments, and that we were in a manner forced into a tion of 36 minim's, added to her exports, was only
manufacturing country by the repeal of the &Hai of 54, whilst our exports alone sere 60 millions.
Nantes. A perseverance in our present system would Never, therefore, .would he cease to mittens); evil
inevitably d 6 the same to America. It was said by the the system of his late itight Hon. Friend did not ode
Nadi Lord opposite, on a former night, that the sginate as much its wisdom as in justice. Oa the rather
Orders in Council were net the only obstacle to re- hand, • amidst all our strueeles, did not out' country
conciliation with America. If the Noble Lord . exhibit a picture, not of commercial delay, bet of ine
could shew that America had higher .pretensions— creasing pt °write I Was it not the picture ofa Coun,
that she aimed at the destruction of oar maritime try ris'ne in all the features of wealth,and growitiseits
rights, fee tastance—he for ant; green we vittrifelferz" proupolty f Could not even the didicutties *inch
ings might be, would not compromise the honour or w' now complained of he referred to tae unnatural
the interests of his country ; but the fact was other- growth of that prosperity in a particular year 1 NVith
wise. The repeal of the Orders in Council was the the exception of our trade to America, had lint All
only obstacle to conciliation, and this appeared from the branches of our commerce glee. on in an accents',
unquestionable documents. The American Govern- lilting ratio? `lleac!] Even to the Gouthemt of
mart and our's did not differ on the principle of , Europe, notwittistauding all the efforts of the great _
blockade ; for we never supported the principle of a scourge of mankind, had not our commerce !hayed ,
mere paper blockade, and we stated thii distinctly in the struggle? Toe exports to Europe in the
tit. ,mr Ambassador to Mr. Monroe. He was sorry three years subsequent to the Orders in Council,
not 'o see an 1100. Getrieman (Mr. Stephen) in his , were superior by six millions to the exports of the
place, who used 'o dwell so much on this topic, he. : three preceding years. No Country had ever studied
ca, se he Weld ho glad to set him right on it by the , more than this had done the interests of neutral!,
correspostilence between the two Governments. So ! and certainly every thing in our power had been
far indeed was America from differing with us on tried to preserve the friendship of America.. "Hear,
this pint, that Mr. Monroe said, Did not America ; hear!] But the enemy had said se len. to should
rePeatedly declare, that she easiest only for the re- , have commerce with us. We had justly retureel on
peal of oor Orders is Council ?" After sach a de- , the enemy, and declared, that no people, should
cfaratioass this of hsr Ambassador, could any person I have commerce with him but through the medium of
sty that there was any other impediment to an agree- I England. We had, therefore, resorted to a strict
ment except those Orders? All America wanted was a blockade of all his p.• -is ; and when he issued his
satisfactory assurance that our Orders were at as end.: Berli.. -el Milan Dees et , we bed- recourse to
it was unfair, therefore, to state, that there *as any , the Orders in Council, as a measuts of just and oecere
material question which involved the consideration l vary retaliation. Ile wished lo say a few words on the
of our maritime rights of search, of blockade, &c. I subject of liceuces,ngainst which so much clamour had
i —[/pear !]—From the Papers to which he alluded, at various times been made; and unless the House
these facts were clear ; and he was only astonished, I was dispcsed to relinquish at least four-fifths of the
when they were so satisfactory, that the Noble Lord whole trade of the country, it must give its approbae
I•
l should have resisted their production before the lieu to that system; for by these we had for a length
' House. In a few days, however, he should move iof time compelled France and the other parts of the-
them to be printed, to which he hoped the Noble ; Continent connected with, and dependent on her, to
Lord would have then no objection. Before he sat' take our manufactures to a vast amount, and in do•
down,. there was another point on which he wished lug this we hail never infringed on the rights of nett.
to say a few words, and that was the ex pence to which : trals, though he was ready to allow that. they
Iwe were put by the existence of the Orders ht-Coone I could not derive equal advantages from it. .
,11, hay
cll. He would venture to say, that unless they were *however, been repeatedly stated to Americas, that
repealed, our Commissary-General in • Portugal I wewere at any time ready to exclude ottr own•
could not lie in future sufficiently supplied. By our I commerce, if she-would make a common cause-with.
inability to send any thing to America in return for ( us, and keep up a atria blockade against France.—
her supplies, a loss of two millions a-year was suf. If she would not, she was told decidedly. that we:
fered from the state of the exchange. We had, then, must rigidly resort to a system of retaliation iu order
the additional espence of military prepamtions in all ' to prevent the enemy from carrying into effect. Ms
our northern Colonies; and it was possible, even as said open and avowed design of ruining this country.--
by his Hon. Friend, that an additional force would he Ile now felt anxious to call the attention of theft oum
wanted from Portugal for the defence of Canada.-; to thestatd of the relations between this countrrand.
This might be found necessary ; but if America . America, since the period in which the restriction,
should go to war seriously against us, in his opinion, • had been taken off from the Prince Regent. .Wjth.
we could not retain Canada th}ee months. On the , respect to the view the present Ministers had taken of
whote, he thought, that by our Orders in Council we . that question, he could only my, that till within
grasped at a shadow, whilst we lost the most substame, these few days they had never thought themselves ens.
tial commercial advantages. ~titled toastas a Government ; and when they came
Lord CAS'I'LEREAGH began by stating, that no stn look at the Decree which was lately published,
person could rise to speak on the present rnnst im- t though it Ore date a twelvemonth before, they could
portant subject with more anxiety than he did : and ; not but entertain doubts vrhethee that Decree had
that he should give his reasons for votingngainet the I not been set aside by toe sweeping declaration of the
Address with the most sanguine hope of their induc- .' Duke of Bassano made since that time. He thought
ing the House.to coincide with him in the vieve which 'ft was highly desirable that restrictive measures out
he should take of the subject. In evening this ques- i each side should beanspended, and an attempt made
lion he must, however, lament with his Right Hon.! to try if France could not be brought to consent that
Friend, that so little an interval had taken place be- ! the ancient mode of carrying on commerce should
tween the examination of ' the evidence, and the Ibe restored. lie thought with the ffon. and Learned ~.,.
solemn Parliamentary consideration of the /Object
,O;entleman who brought forward the motion, that it;
which was now so prematurely forced forward. 'This would be wrong -to notice any irritative measures
was the more to he lamented, as the evidence went to which had been lately adopted by America, as that .
such a great extent. He Ira, sorry that the. Honour- ;Gold by no means be productive of benefit, but might
able Gentleman, even for the sake of his-own cha. tend to widen the breach subsisting between the two
racter, should have so'much departed frem all Par- countries. if the plan he proposed should take place,
liamentarif practices and should have premed to a and the putts' intercourse be motored) it would