The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-04-14 00:00:00

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t i

r ,per.
The Bill was then read a third time.
On the motion of Mr. ELLII:F., the clause rotopelling
tl.e Batik to pay the larger notes in IL notes, or in
the legal coin of the realm, was agreed to, and
Vy Tray of Rider, to the Bill. The Rill was then
pa‘stol.
The mink of Ireland Cash Payments Bill was read a
11.1rul tissue and passed, a similar clause having been
trailed to it by way of Rider, on the motion of the CHAN-
CELLOR of the EXCHEQUF.R.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee of
Supply.
Mr. COROON wished to ask the Right lion. Gent.
oppo-ite (Sir C. Long), whether there was any inten-
tion on the part of the Board appointed to investi-
gate public Salaries, to recommend a reduction of
Cie Salaries of the Commissioners of Customs, Ex-
cise, and Stamps, which hid been increased by an
order of the Treasury in the year lsl6 ? That in-
crease produced a discussion in that House at the
time, and the then Member for Wiltshire brought for-
ward a motion on the subject, which was met on the
Fart of his Majesty's Ministers by the irresistible ar-
;lntent of a majority. lie thought that in the pre-
tent distressed circumstances of the country, this
would be a proper time to bring hack the salaries of
those Gentlemen to what they bad been up to the I,
9th of Feb. 1816. He was unwilling to bring for-1
ward this subject in the form of a distinct motion,
because, as his Majesty's Ministers had had the de-
merit
of increasing the salaries, they would uow have
an opportunity of making the reduction themselves. ,
Sir C. LONG said, that the subject was now under
the consideration of the Treasury, and would be taken l,
up, not with reference to the practicability of reduc-
tion in any particular offices, but with regard to reduc-
tion in public offices in general.
Mr. WILSON bore testimony to the active exertions
of the Board .of Inquiry, to which the Hon. Member
had alluded. The reason why reduction had been re-
cJuntnended indthe salaries of the officers alluded to
was, a very great accession of labour had lately fallen
upon those officers.
Mr. HUMS wished to know from the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, whether he (Mr. H.) bad been
correctly informed, that the Treasury had sent round
circulars to the heads of the different departments.
calling upon than to inquire into, and report epos.
the practicability of snaking any reduction in the
salaries of the Mime in their respective Departusents.
Sir C. LONO was understood to Say that he had
himself received such a letter, the object of which
woe to lead oxen' retrenchment. The subject
was eertainil• the cessideration of .11uleetee
Herentment. ' •••• • - • •
Air H. PARNELL said it would be satisfeetery to
know the ditetof lire letter, whittle Asa flight Hon.
Oentlemms oppositalend•roesked. .
LONQ odds -that ki judos Sit his Hajestfe
flovernmest, he *seawed,* state this a letter had been
meetly tense rifted *the heads of the different dopers-
moms, rapids( that Ile Ace shield be OW up Wass

stated to his Majesty's ilovernment.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee If
Supply.
Colonel DAVIES wished to put a queetion to the
Noble Lord (Paln,erston),tn asct•rtain wheth'er there wes
to be any reduction of the Staff of Guernsey and Jersey ?
He had adverted to the subject the other day, and ob-
jected to their being two Major-Generals for those Islands.
flu that occasion the Noble Lord intimated that it was
the iutention there should be but one; since then be
found that no step had been taken towards that reduc-
tion, and he would be glad to hear detiuitively, if any
such was really intended
Lord PA! IF said, that if the Honourable
Member had looked at the Reduction List for June, he
would hare seen that itmentioned the redaction to which
he allude I.
Colonel DAVIES objected also to the continuance of
Lieutenant Governors of these Islands.
Mr. GORDON made a bittkilar objectiou to the Staff
Officers in Jersey.
Lord P.II.3IERSTON then moved, that the stun of
14,4711. 15s. 5e41. be granted for allowances and salary
to the Commander in Chief, Lis peraonal Stall, and the
Secretaries, Clerks, and Assistants.
Mr. 111'31E said, lie rose to move a reduction l-
of
2,000/., and would state the grounds. In 1807,
he a
lowance to the Coi ttttt ander in Chief was 3774!., being
nine guineas a day; hut in Isls, it was at the rate of 16
guineas a day. He thought it morals be proper to re-
duce it to what it was iu 1807, which would make a re-
duction of somewhat more than 2,000/. That sent, how-
ever, he would have reduced on the whole department,
leaving it to the head of the department to apportion the
allo..eances provided fur by the remaining 12,01
There aas a military Secretary who had 2,0001 Ile 01
did/.
not intend to meddle with the principle of increasing
allowances with the increase of duties, but would state
the facts. In 1-03, tie salary was but 900!. ;it was in-
creased when the import:kilt duties which n. Gordon
had to perform made !WWe augmentation necessary ; but
it was never intended that such increase should he pet-
'lment. Thrti there was another Secretary, and au
Assistant Secretary, our of Oa the other at 3651. Ile
thought that the 6010/. might he saved to the country.
Ile then pruceeddd to observe upon the increase which
had taken place to the allowance to the other officer of
the &prurient, and Milli', lie contended, ought to he
diminished. In 1S1:7, thy first clerk had 3011/. now it
was double ; the es; a shell clerks bad 1901., 1601., and
1201. each ; now they were 450/. The minor clerks
weretso/. and 911/., now they had 200/. each. If the re-
duction brought the establishment down to that it was
in Ibo 7, it would be too great a reduction. The •esta-
blishment altogether, along with its contingencies, was
about 12,000/ , now it was hie; rased to 12,47.11. Ile
knew it was the kipinion of slime who wished fur reduc-
tion, that it should not fall on the Commander-in-chief.
Ile did nUt wish to fix it upon any one, hut would leave
the bead of the depart:matt, as he before stated, to ap-
portion the vtaltkettio aitittg the 'Aria-, as he saw pr,-
per. Ile thought also, that a I liaplain to
there ►
the Cum
.
iskatiller-iii-elkiel was 1111114.11.sbary, ;Is were featr
Chaplains to the force, besides several others who would
perform die service. lie concluded by moving as an
amendment, that the bum propped abould be reduced
by 2,000/.
Lord PALIMERSTON said, that in the reference
which the Honourable Member made to the establish-
ment of 1307, according in which lie proposed to reduce
the present one, lie dill tint understand whether the
Honourable Member intruded that the pay of the Com-
ins mler in 'hief should hr redeem! 01 not; lint wh d
ether d
Ise did mean that or not, theie ua: no god groun lai
fur his amendineilt. The duties of the Commander-in-
l'hief at present amounted to a great deal, and they acre
not paid higher than their importance required. He
appealed to those who knew the facts, and %i Ill) were as
capable of forming an opinion as himself, was it of little
moment that ttttt antler in Chief had to dispose of
the patronage of the whole ariny.—(Cheers from the
Opposition). Ile said this advisedly. The more high
and delicate patronage was, the greater the responsibi-
lity of the other, and the ~tore necessary that the sa-
lary should be an adequate one. Siipposikkg there
was a possibility of abuse. and he said this only in
the abstract, the salary ought to be such as to eiee
an additional security against such an abuse, Ity re-
moving the chances 41f temptation. Then, as to the
eiv'.l part of the establishment, the llonoureble Mem-
ber had nut given any sufficient ground fur reducing
that. 'I be expense of that branch in 15117, including
two secretaries, was 7,51;0/. awl now it was only
7,61161., waking only an increase of 106/. There
was therefore no ground fur a reduction of 2,11001.
Ile then proceeded to slice, that the :Military Secre-
tory was not too highly paid, 1111 111'1'01111f of the on-
lIICTOUS anti laborious duties la. had to perform.
Those duties occupied eight hours a day, soaletinies
including Sundays. The Military Secret try had in-
terviews with Officers, to the mother of 5(1 and 611 a
day, who had statements to make, and had likewise
to conduct the correspondence. The Assistant Se-
cretary had also very laborious ditties to perform; he
had to manage the details of correspondence, on
which the Military Secretary decided ; Mint a year
was not too great for this service. As to the Chap-
lain it was an appointment belonging to the Choplain
lieueral, and the salary was fixed by the Act of I s 17.
Ile repeated that there was no r for reduction,
as there was only 100/. difference between the al-
lowances for the Civil department of ISO 7, and the
present time.
Mr. VERNAL supported the Amendment, and con-
tended, that the country had a right to look for some
reductions in the 6th year of peace. lie objected to
the practice of making as augmentation once allowed
perpetual. The argument against reditctioa upon
this ground would be evilly strong in the 12th year
of peace as at pyesent ; so that the country was not
to 'aped any diminution of those War Establish-
ments, whetter might be the duration of tratvillity.
Lord PALMERSTON, la explanation, said, that
so Waves* was Wooded to be perpotend. but wee to
reveals or be removed ss the circutostenee of the
country required. Ile said that the Civil Departmest
la 1816 had bees 10.000/.. it was Lowered is the two
soec•soive yeah to shout 0•00111. t it wee raised a
little is 11119.-ssd iewtred a6ais is- 1111:10 7.7•01.
this year It was but 7.111111. These fasts proved that
lacrosse or redaction were wet to be perpetual. bet
were raised as the ealfrescies of the envies required.

said, that the Noble Lord's gate-
,to mislead. He bad stated, that
she Civil Department was only 1001. more then in 1107,
hut the fact was, according to the most anthentre do-
euments, that the expense in 11407, was but 6,3191.;
now it was really 6,9*.itsl. waking the present estimate
620/. more. But the contingent expenses then were
1,3001. and were now but 7001. Besides, there were of-
fices in existence in 1807, %% bleb did not exist any longer.
There was a Law Clerk with 2001. a year ; a House-
kteiwr, with VOL a sear, making a difference of 4001.
which added to the 6601. made upwards of 1,0110/. instead
of 1001. stated as the difference by the Noble Lord.—
He thought if less Clerks were employed, the expense
ought to be proportionably less. The Cha
and plain, those
he
was of opinion, ought to be rednced, n
grminds would vote for the Amendment, but did not
think the services of the Commander in Chief overpaid.
Mr. SYKES contended, that the expense of such es-
tablishments ought not to be as high by a great deal at
present, as in 180/, there being then 300,000 forces'
employed, and now less than 100,000. As to what the
Noble Lord stated of the patronage of the Commander
in Chief, it appeared to him, that if his duty of disposing
of the patronage of the army was a ground for raising
his salary, he might to have been paid much higher in
lno7 titan at present ; for as that patronage arose out of
the army, and as then we had 300,000 men in arms, and
now not one-tbirel the number, the high and delicate
patrnnage which the Noble hotel spoke of, must he pot
one-thirel at present of what it was at that time.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)—He then observed upon the distresses of
the country, anti the necessity of enforcing the principle
of economy.
General OASCOYNE opposed the Amendment. Ile
denied that the aggregate sum in the civil department
could be diminished without injustice to the Secretaries
and Clerks, whose salaries had been increased according
to the length of service. In observing upon the pay of
the Comusaniler in Chief, be stated, that his Royal High-
ness did not receive the full pay of Field Marshal until
aftr t appointment of the Duke of Wellington. who
insiestedhe
on receis leg the pay adequate to his rank and
situation.
Lord PALNIERSTON rose to rectify a misconception
of the- Gallant General who had just addressed the House.
The fact was, that the Duke of Wellington dill not insist
on receiving
.the pay of a Fielel Marshal, the arrange-
ment respecting pay to the Duke of York and him was
made witleont previous commensication with either of
them, and altogether without their knowledge.
Mr. I). BROWNE said a few words not audible in the
Gallery.
General GASCOY NE explained.
Mr. Alderman WOOD thought that the reduction
ought to take plate upon the allowances of the superiors
of the establishment, such as the Commander-in-Chief
and his Secretaries, and not on those of the minor
Officers. Ile u weld, therefore, have preferred that the
Amendment was so drawn up as to make a specific re-
duction to that effect, instead of leaving it on the aggre-
gate sum, which would be sure to fall upon only the
inferior persons in the establishment.—((Bear, hear.)
Lord MILTON argued in favour of reduction. lie
contended that the increase which took place in the
allowances under Lord Melville's administration, was
on aceount of the depreciation of money, and was so
stated in the acts of Parliament. Now a revulsion had
taken place in the price of money, and the salaries ought
to be regalated accordingly. lie called on the landed
Gentlemen to support reduction, as they received less
rent, the farmer less profit, the labourer less wages,
than at the period when the salaries were raised ; and
the Officers of Government ought not to be the only
privileged class of persons, whose salaries were not to
suffer with the present state of the country.
Mr. GOULBGRN denied that the labourer received
less wages titan at the former period ; nor were the
Officers of Government the only persons whose income
was not affected by the state of the country. The Noble
Lord had forgotten the annuitants and fundlsolders,
who formed an large a portion of the community.
Lord Mwrots and Mr. Gam cueax mutually ex-
plained.
Mr. ABERCROMBIE supported the Amendment.
Ile selegesteel the expediency of a review by Govern-
ment of the situation of all the clerks of all the public
departments, with a view of making every possible re-
duction.
Mr. MI)NCE maintained that the argument of the
Hon. Coder Secretary of State was perfectly newer-
logous ; and rontetided that the time had arrived when
every possible reeleiction ought to be effected.
Sir H. PARN ELL observed, that when in leo I,
Mr. Pitt proposed an increase of salaries to various
pedant: officers, it %VAS on the grentuel of the deprecia-
tion of the currency. That depreciation no longer
existing, the salaries ought to be reduced to their
original amount. lie expressed himself perfectly at
a loss to conceive why the sum which it was proposed
to vote in the Resolution was greater than the sum
voteel for the same purpose in I 602 .
Sir C. LONG opposed the Amendment.
Mr. HUME informed the Gallant General (Gen. Gas-
covne), that Mr. Dighton, who, when he entered on
Ace iii 1795, lead 150/. a year, had now 700/. which was
pretty well ; others, who had 1001. originally, bad now
150/. As the Gallant General said that the chaplaincy
of the Duke of York's staff was an honorary employ-
ment, the Gallant General must certainly vote for the re-
duction. It would be no disgrace to reduce the salary
even of the highest public officers in the country. The
he
Honourable Gentleman then re-stated the grounds
which be proposed his amendment, observing, that in
order to satisfy a greater number of Members, he had
limited his reduction to half the amount of that which
Ise considered the Resolution susceptible of.
Sir LOWRY COLE observed, that the Secretary at
War had more to do in peace than in war, in consequence
of the large half-pay list, the various applications with
relation to length of serrice, &c. He aud not believe
that any Under Secretary whatever had so many duties
to perform at the present moment as the Secretary at
War; and he tuaintained that " the labourer was always
worthy of Isis hire."
Mr. BERN AI, explained.
Mr. Alderman WOOD adverted to the general depre-
ciation in society, and argued that it ought to he shared
by person in office. The highest offices in the State
ought to sacrifice a part of their salaries, and they might
then fairly call upon their subordinates to do the same.
General UASCOYNE explained.
Mr. HUME expressed his concurrence in what
halt
fallen from the Worthy Alderman. He required that
the Commaodetsin-Chief should begin the reduction, and
not the minor clerks.
The Uallery was then cleared. Strangers were not re-
admitted ter nearly an hour. We were informed, how-
ever, that three divisions took place, via :
On an Amendment to reduce the suns stated in the
original Resolution to 19,4741. lbs. 41.
For the Amesdasewt 1111—Against It 94—Majority 71.
Oa an Amendment to minis the sem. stated in the
ve&ml lieselhiles is 1144741. lie. 44.
Per the Aselehneet 117.—Agalset it 99—bl4ority 13.
On alt Amendment to rodeos the ewe detail is the
erireenal Resoled*" to 13.11141. lie. hid.
the Atmeethatat 4111—Age1set It 1116^Mlitelty 93

. The original resolution was then agreed to without
On re.enteiing the Gallery, we found Lord '
MFRS lON proposing a resolution for gratitin;
not excn.eding 69111. for defraying theexpence of
Judge Advocate of Scotland.
After a few observations from Colonel Davies,
Palmerston, Mr. O'Grady, Mr. Hume, Mr. Sykes,
Berlcett, Mr. Bernal, and Mr. Gipps;
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON saitl, that Ministers
fore were put to their shifts ; but now thew had
rag to cover them.—(A laugh )
Mr. WM. DUN DAS contended that the office
ancient Scotch office.
Mr. ELLICE observed, that the reason slat;
Hun. Gentleman for preserving the office, Was
the reason why he would wish to abolish it,
that it watt an old Scotch office.--(A laugh.)
Mr. BENNET considered the office notht,
Scotch job.
Sir K. YERtirSON considered the office ass
unnecessary.
After a few observations from the Chancyi
nxclietiner, Mr. Hume, Mr. Goulburn, M. W.
and Mr. Bennet, the Gallery was cleared, and
divided:—For the resolution, lll.—Against
Majority, 39.
On entering the Gallery we found Colonel
ohjectiug to the item for the Comptrollers of
counts. lie said that in the year 1797, when
Extraordinarirs amounted to upwards of SI7
the expences of the Comptrollers of Army A(
not amount to more than .1,1751. In
Army Extraordinaries dill not amount to tuore
million, the expences c(f the Comptrollers
12,0'21. three times the amonnt of the expenc,
The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving,
sum of f 2,6421. should he substituted in place,
of 1042/. stated in the original resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU
the amendment. He contended that the I
Comptroller had increased four-fold shire 1
Mr. BERNAL supported the amendmen
Mr. BANKES thought that an inconsiderable
ought not to he put in competition with the -
tilting of accounts, and therefore, supported
resolution.
Mr. CREEVEY ridirtileclithe idea of Altura
income to en Auditor of Acconntv, than '
Officer ;:romotell for his merits to the Pr
luwance in the latter case being a pension

year.
Sir R. FERGI7SON appealed to the
the behalf of I;eneral Officers who had
and with whom I;overnnient had broken fait
the allowance, to the exclusion of Major'
were nut excepted in the original arra
did not cuter into the question of the propriety
propriety of that arrangement in the first
having been made, it ought not to have'
After some further observations from
Mr. liuskissou, and Mr. Hume, the Umiak
Against the Amendment 10—For it, 43-311
The House then resumed, and the Report
to be received on Monday.
REVENUE LAWS.
Mr. LUSIIINOTON having moved that the 1114,e
resolve itself into a Cotninittee on they Acts for vireo*
ing Smuggling in Irrlaud,
with a iew to Wog in
Bill on that subject,
Mr. BERNAL observed, that the State of the Resale
Laws in England, by whirls the whole of the toad was
now in a state of blockade and terror, loudly called 10

revision.
Mr. 1101014 WMh said the whole of the coast of S';''
set, in particular, was in a state of the utmost irritation
and alarm,
which had been aggravated by a Feces' 'w-
lanc holy occurrence. A tieherman had been, as wassail
known, killed under very suspicious circumstances t
toN
juries had declared that the seaman of the preveatite
service who killed him was gnat), of wilful murder.
The Coroner's Jury, composed of trienteen twit:smog
the town of Hastings, unanimously brought is this ver-
dict without leaving the room, and afterwards, at the
Assizes, the same verdict bad been given. The Jot
had thought tit to recommend the man to mercy, 00
which recommendation the Government had acted. T
alarm was now such, that all the fishermen at Hastings
had drawn up their boats, and the whole populatio
were in terror of the recurrence of these dreadful strova•
ties. According to letters which had been sheen I!
one of the Honourable Members for SW, who
in the habit of supporting his Majesty's Ministers. tot,
were, within the last eighteen months, some doorei
persons pot to death on that co d ne
ast. It coolrsk be
maintained that these murders should be corsitto 1,1" r
some of them undouhtestly were murders, to
e",st
gin or lace from being now and then landrd.
we were so distressed for sevenne that we
spare half a crown, the money should not be did'
the cepense of the lives of his Majesty's sub cote.
The CIIANCELIAM. of the FACHEQUgIi 114
that a Judge who conceived that a prisoner seas iesool
of a fact of which he was found guilty by the f iff#ll°
of a jury, and yet did not recommend him 1 o s
se'
would be unworthy of his station.—(Hear.).-V
commendation in such a case, the Govern, lest'
not do otherwise than attend. With regard te
ings on the coast, they unhappily shewed dist I
portion of the population was disposed to
4'
and that their disposition could only he o •prrtog
moderate, yet efficacious nteasures. Time is Mole ^
tumid:men which had lately ocenrred, wre
to what what lied hnppened even when the rest nue was
ferent from what it now was.
31r. GORDON said, it was not alertly it Swttl
this blockade system prevailed. In Dore
et, to
lat., he knew that revenue officers and
goons were stationed in each soutll vir .agri 1
(pence of which was constant riots and • ifrays.
Mr. HODHOUSE wished to know •
remotest would Is any degree relit e this
Istem, which had made it actoally do
on the coast?
forSitrhetia.lUtersa°CwiLlitlircbaripro:Gakillod. t•he'relho4 aorbre"wrif.oll4B4l:ll
euniodtbeeraprevetioe.stiTrehosorovdievrtrheasseil hreihradi !
toriedihatith rig
ea
rith searching fishing Wilds, bet it eY