The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-02-17 00:00:00

TKfi STATESMAN.

vices and Contingencies,while the amount was 208,000/.
The charge fur old stores was 40,0001. at the very 'no.
'vent, too, when they were selling most valuable stores.
Ile trusted the House would obtain some information as
to the Irish Establishment of the Ordnance. The ex-
iense of that at Dublin atnnnnted to 7,6601., while the
amount of the expenditure for the artificers end la-
bourers through all Ireland did not exceed 6,7601.
In the stating all these particulars, he did not blame
•the Hon. Member. He found fault with the system.
The important fact was to be recollected, that these
officers received larger pay at that moment than during
a period of extended warfare, when the ten per cent.
Income Tax was deducted from their salaries. Taking
also the increase of the value of money at 2:1 or 31) pr
rent. lie might say that their salaries had been in-
er-i.sell full 40 per cent.--{Hear. hear.)—Ile had no
hesitation in saying, tbat under a proper system, he
could see his way to a reduction of the present galling
taxatiou to the amount of five millions. lie recant-
weeded that consideration to the Noble Lord oppo-
site (Castlereagh.) Let hint not be deterred by any
apprehensiuns of the loss of patronage, fur he may
.depend on it, that the fewer good things of
that kind he bad to give away, the gseater
the favour would be in the distribution.—ale
then proceeded to remark upon the list of compenta-
t ons, and said it contained the nausea of many persons
who bad not served longer peii.)ds than two, four, or
rive veers. This, however, Was quite consistent with
the whole of the system which he had felt it his duty
to point out thus minutely to the attention of the
tloiia ; he trusted there would he no objection to the
motion which he was 110 W to submit, and if the M-
ilieu able tientlensen opposite thought proper to con-
I:ie information required by th it motion, he hoped
th.: details would be printed at once, and iii such a
way, as to afford the information in' thr mist sell-
shape. lie conclude by moving, that the
Estimates far the present year be submitted
t.) tbe House hi detail, iiistiugui-hing in separate
the amount of salaries to all officers, with the
paizi. ular salary to each, the amount of expense in
CACI/ department, with the trait' amount of the whole,
distinguishing every new °thee since the year 1793 ;
Mir) that returns he made in separate columns of the
ins•rease of salary and comptusation to each officer
si.ae the year 1796.
Lord NCItENT seconded the motion.
Mr. It. WARD hail not the smallest objeetion to the
After the lone statement, however, partly cor-
rect and partly most incorrect, which the Hon. Member
hail presented to the House, a few observations were
absolutely necessary. Ile (Mr. Ward) certainly ruse
nad-r circumstawes of great disadvantage to reply to
Liar !statement, becitose, from the notice which he had
r.n tired, lie had nut been prepared to expect that state-
ment. Having been asked by the Honourable Metnber
cm,,,mosite whether he bad any objection to detail the par-
ticulars of the hrg item in the estimate, the item of
120101. and having replied in the negative, the Howse
would judge of his stet-prise at being suddenly called
u onto answer all the accusations whiois the voluminous
paperof Mr. Hume contained.--(hear.) Still he was bound
to answer those accusations ; anti from memory, for with
documents he was miprovided, he would reply to them
as well as be was able. Now, in the first hens of the
_ Member's (:4r. Hume's) charge, there wee the
greatest possible error. The lion. Ahnnher stated to tha
House that, aceorililig to the estimate, only 3.0001. had
been abated of the charge of the last year. If the Hon.
llemhzw would takc the.tronitle of examination as well
a, aceusetion, lie %stead tiol a reduction of 53,0001.
Mr. lII' ME, across the table, gave some explanation
which did not reach us.
Mr. WA RD.-1 f the Hononralm!e Memlser aban-
doned the point, be would pursue it no further; but
be should shew the House that throughout every
item in the estimate, except the article of civil super.
annuations—in every other item there was reduction ;
and that the whole reduction amounted to 33,'100!.:
the Ilmetour..ble lientlemen opposite might shake their
heads, but spin that point be was impregnable. Es
coo dire wades: if the Hun, Member for 31ontrose
could make a mistake of 30,0001. in a sum of I,300,01:0/.
what errors might he not have committed in time long
detail of figures which he had laid before the Houses.
The employment of labourers as servants had been
objected to. It might he an objectionable practice.;
hut it was lint an abuse, for it was a system which
had been avowed and upon for 30 years, and
the services of a labourer now formed, by usage, part
of the eitiolninent Otos to an officer. It happened,
however, that the noble person at the head of the
ordnance derartinent u..s, up to a certain point, of
the saute opiiiion with the Honourable Member ; he
thought the practice a had one, anti was taking mea-
l Ur's to abolish it ; the advantage was not taken from
those who already possessed it; Lut care was taken
taut to extend it' to new comers. As to that insulated
aerusation teerhine the conduct of the Storekeeper at
84""erne's. the Ihmontalole Member, accusing one indi-
sidual of peculation, argued with his usual candour,
that such was the general practice of the department.
or the fact, he (Mr. Waril) knew nothing. If it were
proved, the hes;des losing his situation,
would certainly be punished ins way which would not
he agreeable to him.—(A laugh.)—The Hoe. member
situ! that the heads of departments, while cutting the sa-
laries of clerks at 90/. per year, had been raising their
tern. Whore slid the Hon. Member find that ? He
(31r,Waril) said, anti had before said, that some of the
Leeds of departments !marl had their emoluments re-
dueed. „Tin' lion. Member," Mr. Ward continued,
"Lan told the House that the salary of the Master-ge-
neral has been doubled : that, from 1,3001. a year, it has
been made 3,0001. The fact is, that irons the time of
Elizabeth to the time of the union with Ireland, the
toaster of the Ordnance of England had a salary of
1.500 f. per year. Ireland also had a master of the Ord-
nance at a similar salary i • and at time union, in the year
1.'02, the post being beillby the Marquis Cornwallis, the
situations were thrown together, and the increased sa-
lary followed the in d duty.—(Hear, bear, front
Mr. Hntne.)—The lion. Member cries " bear, hear"
but why did lie not clearly state a fact which, from his
statement, was misunderstood by half the !louse, and
would have been tuisnissierstooll by half the world ? The
Hon. itemiser 111.0.1111 to question my assertion that the
heads of departments must have bad their salaries
lowered. Does he question it?
Mr. es.
Mr. WARD.—Then li will remove that doubt, and
these wise have borne witness to the Hoe. Ileabbe's
industry should now have proof of his acenvity• My
ems emoluments have been decreased from 1,7001.
per year to 1,001. An Honourable PAW. who Ills
sear me is its the same situation ; Mil salary is reduced

3061. a year. TIIO tosvetary of the Board, who bad
U. a day war-allowance, lost that allowance at the
commeneement of the peace. In the misstatement to
which I have before alluded as coming from the Ho-
nonrable Member, it appeared that the clerk of the
ordnance hid denied that the storekeeper at Dover
had not 500.1. a year. I merely stated that the storita
keeper at Dover had not retired at all. I thous*
the thing of no importance ; but the Hon. Mend*,
coming, I suppose, to night with his explanation, tabs
a singular mode of doing me justice. He has not even
now stated that which is the fact, that the storekeeper
of Dover has retired upon a salary of 3001. a veer.
The Hon. Gentleman then went on to contend that
every disposition to economy was felt in the Ordnance
Department. The Duke of Wellington, since he had
been at the head of its affairs, hid abolished sixty-
eight offices—the salaries attached to which amounted
to no less than 14,0001. a year. Even the situation
of Adjutant-General at Gibraltar, which had been
sought after by men entitled to it from their charac-
ter and length of service ; even that situation had
been, upon consideration, abolished. With respect to
the gratuities complained of, he (IYr. Ward) had the
same answer which be had applied to the complaint
as to servants. At all events it was not an abuse,
because it was an acknowledged and recognised prac-
' trice. The addition to the salary of the Secretary to
the Master-General was another point of objection;
but that salary had been raised by the reduction of a'
second secretaryship, and without costing the country
a shilling. The powder-works at Fevershain were
carried on at present, because it was found that it
would be cheaper to carry on the works for a few
years, than to incur the expense of removing the
vast quantity of stores which the depot contained.
From the statement of the Honourable Gentleman
one would have supposed that the suns of 270,000'.
was expended in repairs; but upon an accurate
survey of the estimates, it would lie found that
the whole sum so expended, in which many payments
to superintending officers were included, did not ex-
ceed 80,01101. The lion. Gentleman had adverted to
the pay of the engineer others ; but these officers
were not in barrack, and hail not the allowance of
coals and candles ; in lien of these extra pay was
' given them, and he could assure the house that they
complained of this as too small. The next subject to
which allusion hail been wade, was to the officers
on half-pay. On this subject lie could assure the
house, that selections were made frosts the half-pay for
bleb situations, and that only subordinite ones were
filled up by cadets. He would admit that the expense
of the Dublin establishment appeared larger than at
IYeoltriell, but under this head were included several
other branches which were not brought in the accounts
of the Woidwich expenditure. As to Sheerness, the
expense arose from a great part of the business which
was befute done at Chatham being about to be
transferred thither. As to the establishment at
St. John's-wood, during the war it was con-
sidered necessary to have a brigade of cavalry there.
That barrack was still on hands, because the lease
was unexpired, and be could assure the lion. Gent.
that he might have it cheap if lie were disposed to
take It.—(Hear, and a laugh.)-1 he lion.:_acutienaan
tl.en went on to comment on the other points of Mr.
Home's speech. The establishment at Trincastatee,
he (Abetted; wasiept in consequence of its being con-
sidered necessary fur the assistance of the navy. He
denied that any clerks were allowed to retire ou a full
salary, after a short service. lit would advert to one
more point the Him. Gentleman had said, that 560/.
wis consumed in taking the remains of old stores.
The fart was, that when a storekeeper was changed,
lie was to give an account to his successor of the re-
mains of stores ; but as the successor could not be the
best judge whether this was correct, a clerk was sent
down to take the remains, and thin was what the Hun.
Gent. had talked so much of. It was like his state-
ment of the retired storekeeper at Dover. Had hr not
reason to complain of being unfairly treated by the
lion. Gentleman, in thus introducing transactions
without name or date, and taking him and the House
unawares ? lie would only refer to the contrast
which the Hon. Gent. had made between the present
expense of the Ordnance and what it was in 1793
The price of almost every article of 'consumption was
doubled since 1793 ; the pay of the artillery had been
doubled ; the number of men employed hail been flow
bled. The union between England. and Ireland hat!
taken place since 1793—a circumstance which had
added an addition of abant I 3J,110111. Additional
improvements had been made ; that corps which the
lion. Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. If. 0. Bennet)
had on a former occasion called the sinews of war, the
artillery drivers, had been added to the service ; the
medical establishment had not then existed. The
lion. Member had omitted to notice all these, which,
if deducted from the excess of the present establish-
ment above the expense of 1793, would leave a very
little difference.—(Hear.)—Cunsidering these circum-
stances, and the increase In our colonies, and our dif-
ferent relations with America, he (Mr. Ward) though,
he might admit that some things might be cut oirs
was rather astonished that the expense was so low an
it was.
After a few words from Sir R. Ferguson, Sir H.
Parnell, and Sir Wm. Congreve,
Mr. WARD explained. After which,
Strangers were ordered to withdraw. We under-
stand that before the division took place, Lord Castle-
reagh and Mr. Ward pledged themselves to lay before
the House, is another shape, all the information sought
to he obtained by the motion of Mr. Hume.
The House divided upon the first part of Mr. Humes
motion.

For the motion 44
Against it.
Majority against it. —l4

On re.estering the Gallery, we found the SPEAILaIt
proposing the other parts of the motion, which were
pat and carried.
Mr. WARD moved, that the Ordnance Estimates
for this year be printed.
Mr. HUME: opposed the motion. He had already
demonstrated that &contents, consisting of wholesale
sums of 10,000 i. 30,000/. and 40,000/. without de•
tails, waft ry, and therefore he should oppose
their beiegaggared, as it would only cause a issdess
expense to the elmietry.
Mr. HU/MI*I4ON did not understand the opposi.
ties eitho Hoe. liember. The Estimates had been laid
on the table is the assist form, Red his Het. Friend
lied expreseed his readiness to aliotd every infeteesties