The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-06-14 00:00:00

STATESMAN.

person that this was a profit enormously tou great.—
He was convinced that any priiate hanker, so far
from thinking a million deposit to be an insufficient
compensation for the trouble, would be glad to take
the trouble for a fifth part of that compensation.—
On the second point he would °them., that in 1702,
the allowance to the Bank for managing the public
debt was 92,8051. whereas in the year ltls, it
amounted to 251,5581. which was an increase of
181.5581. Independent of thi,, they charged.
12501. a million for their trouble in the mangernent
of the Property Tat. He thought that it was evi-
dent that the bargain between the Bank and the
public was a most profitable one to the Bank, and a
very losing one to the public. After a variety of
other observations, he concluded by moving the first
of his Resolutions, w hich was taken from the facts
on the face of the accounts.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
thought that the House must immediately perceive
that the present was not the proper time for dis-
cussing a long string Of resolutions, some of which
the House had now heard for the first time. He,
therefore, thought that the proper course to pursue
at present was to move an adjournment of the debate
en the first resolution to some future day, in order
to give the llouse time to compare these resolutions
with the accounts on the table. As the Hon. Gent.
had, however, prefaced his motion with some obser-
vations, he found it necessary for him to take the
same course. As a servant of the public, it was his
duty to make the best bargain he could for the coun-
try, which justice to the Bank would allow. He
conceived the statement of the Hon. Gentlemen to be
much exaggerated. The Bank paid now to the pub-
lic that compensation on account of the balances,
which was considered proper that they should pay in
11807, during the Administration of Mr. Perceval,
when the balances were nearly as great as they are
at present. It was certainly competent to Parliament
to consider now whether this compensation was not
too great,: but as to the profiti which the Bank of
England were supposed to make, from having only
pen, ink, and piper to provide for meeting the de-
mands oo them, he trusted that the !fairs of the
Bank of England were not managed on that princi-
ple, nor on any principle different from what was
adopted by private bankers. As to vault private
bankers would be content with, that was no rale.—
He believed that many individuals in London could
be found that would be glad to take a deposit of
eleven millions, no almost any terms ; but the pub-
lic was to look to the security. If, however, the
allowance given to the Bank was thought too
great, that was a subject open to re-consideration.
After some farther observations, he concluded by
moviug that this debate should be adjourned to this
day se'tinight.
PON';ONBY observed that his Honourable
Friend (ir. Grenfell) had riot brought any charge
against the Bank, but merely contended that the
bargain had been an improvident one for the public.
When the Directors of the Book, acting for the in-
terests of the Proprietors, met the Chancellor
of the Exchequer on this subject, they could not be
blamed for making the best bargain they could for
the interests of those whom they represented.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said that he was very glad to hear that there had
been no intention of bringing any charge against the
Bank.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained.
Mr ROSE explained.—He thought it might be
proper to reconsider the bargain with the Batik, as
the public.were entitled to as good an arrangement
as could be made for them.

Mr. HUSKiSSON defended the bargain made
with the Bank by the late Mr. Perreval, in 1808.—
In that transaction Government had employed every
possible argument in favour of the public, and it was
not without considerable difficulty that they obtained
from the Court of Directors a loan of three millions
without interest. It was, however, now open to
the House to reconsider the bargain.
Mr. TIERNEY explained.—He was now more
fully convinced than ever, that no Chancellor of the
Etchequer could de what he wished to an, till dif-
ferent arrangements were made. It now turned out
that the bargain was such as might have been mend-
ed ; and es Mr. Perceval had tried every argument
without effect, it showed that Threadneedle-street was
an overmatch for Downing-street.
Mr. RUSK ISSON explained.—Government had
only allowed such a bargain es they thought was tit
between the Public and the Bank.

Mr. THORNTON said, that as it was intended to
print the lion. Gentleman's Resolutions, he should
have abstained from making any remarks until a fu-
ture day, but that he thought the House might be
misled by the Resolution that excluded the Bank
Notes deposited at the Exchequer from the public
balances in the two periods of 1807 and 1814, which
were compared with each other, as the leaving out
these Bank Notes made a difference in the deposit
of three millions beyond what it really was. He
objected to the last Resolution, by which the House
was called upon to pledge itself to take into con-
sideration the arrangement between the Bank and the
Public, which had always heretofore been entrusted
to the Executive Government ; and in matters of so
much confidence and delicacy, could not be else-
where so well placed. With respect to the allow.
arise to the Bank for the management of the public
debt, he said it was true that in 1792 the allowance
was about 99,000!., and in 1814, 280,0001.; but
did Gentlemen consider the immense increase in the
National Debt, the risk and the difficulty of con.
ducting it? The number of Clerks was in the first
period 380 ; and now above 1000. Ile next ad-
verted •to the gratuitous services rendered by the
Batik to the Public :—for receiving the tax on trad-
ing profits, they charged nothing ; 17,500,0001.
5 per Ceots. had been either paid off, or converted
into other stock, without any charge for superin-
tending this service; nearly one hundred millions of
Exchequer Bills had, in the last eight years, been
funded, and no charge made for it by the Bank.—
Lastly, by the capital of the Bank, lent at 3 per
cent. interest (three millions without interest), and
other concessions, the public derived a benefit from
that Corporation of 490,0001. a year. Ile stated,
that it was his anxious wish, and that of his bro-
ther Directors, that what was fair and just between
,1
the Public and the Bank should take effect, and lie
was confident the House might safely, as hereto.;
fore, leave the arrangement to them and Government,'
reserving to itself the undoubted right to sanction or. !•
disapprove the bargain when it shall have beet, made. !
One principle, however, he must guard the House `
against, which was—the being supposed to connive
at the restriction on cash payment longer (bait was
absolutely necessary. If the Bank and the Public
were to participate in the profits on a supposed issue
of an increased extent in consequence of the re-
striction, they would naturally and very fairly be
supposed to have a concurrent interest in continuing
it, and the best security for a wholesome limit to its
duration would be taken away. He wished, and
could with confidence say of the other Directors of
the Bank, that they were anxious to maintain a
limited issue of Bank Notes, and to return to the
payment of their notes in cash the moment it could
be done with safety to the commercial and political
interests of the State.

Mr. GRENFELL, in explanation, said that he
was astonished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
should have conceived that there was any such inten-
tion. He had taken pains most explicitly to disclaim
any such intention.
Mr. ROSE was decidedly of opinion, that it
might be right to revise the bargain. Ile had, how.
ever, listened anxiously for the two remedies to be
proposed by the Hon. Gent. and was surprised to find
a proposition of depositing the public money in pri-
vate banks.

Mr. GRENFELL said, that he never was wild
or mad enough to propose any such thing ; but
in, order to fix what was a reasonable rompensa.
sation for the trouble of banking, he thought it ne-
cessary to state what private banks would consider as
sufficient.

Mr.'I'IEIINEY would really imagine, from the
tone assumed on the other side, that it was pre-
tended that the public ought to be very much obliged
to the Bank for not taking still more than they did,
in the way of compensation for their trouble. Ile
was convinced, that if any private bank was consi-
deresl sufficiently secure, there was not a private
banker that would not be happy to take the trouble
for a third part of the compensation. He was pretty
sure that the Honourable Baronet (we believe he al-
luded to Sir W. Curtis) over the way, would jump
at the offer of taking the trouble for one-third part
of the compensation paid to the Bank. The Chan..
cellor of the Exchequer appeared to consider that
the country must pay whatever the Bank thought
proper to ask, as no private bank would afford suf-
ficient security. He would, however, assure the
Right Honourable Gentleman, that in the opinion of
men of the best information on those subjects, the
country was not so completely at the mercy of the
Bank as the Right lion. Gentleman supposed. They
conceived that it was possible to set up something for
management of the public money, which would do
quite as well as the Bank, and with less expence.—
When the bargain was first made with the Bank by
Mr. Perceval, he complained that it was an impro-
vident bargain. His complaint against the Bank was,
that they always contrived to entangle all Chancel.
lors of the Exchequer in such a mariner that they
could not act as they would wish. He would wish
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had left the
Bank to themselves on this occasion, and had con-
tented himself with reserving himself to act impar-
tially between the Bank and the public. Indeed, he
observed that the Gentlemen of the Bank seldom
opened their mouths, unless it was to get something.
—[A laugh.]—lle was persuaded, that there were
secret transactions between Government and the
Bank, as he had never been able to get at the amount
of the Exchequer Bilis purchased by them. He did
not, however, mean to insinuate that the Right
lion. dentlematt sanctioned any improper transac-
tions ; for he felt convinced, that until the finances
of the country were put on a better footing, it woeld
be impossible for the present Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, or for ten Chancellors of the Exchequer, to
make advantageous arranvmenta for the people.—

Mr. GRENFELL replied at some length. He
disclaimed any enquiry into the private concerns of
the Bank ; hut he thought it the bounden of the
House to take care that the interests of the public
were protected. He was not convinced of nnv error
in his statements, with respect to the profits derived
from Bank-notes and issues; and as to the number
of clerks, he believed that one•tenth of them were
employed in making 11. and tl. notes, so that it was
unfair to put that down to the public service. He
repeated, however, that the Bank derive;( an advan-
tage equal to 800,0001. per annum from their issues,
and, therefore, it would become them to net with
more generosity and liberality toward,: the pi'!►lic.
Mr. FORI/11:3 thought the Hon. Gentleman en-

. 7-- - --: waramar
From the speech of the Right lion. Gentleman, any titled to the thanks of the public, fur Ini..ging this
petson would suppose, that the 13knk was the most question before the House. In addition to w •,it mid
liberal public body ; hut he defied him to show been stated respecting the pr•fits of the MIA:, he
where they had done any thing for the country, with- desired to mention, that the Bank now paid only
out insisting on the uttermost farthing. The Right 1.12.0001. per annom for a commutation on st 'raps,
lion. Gentleman might talk of liberality and tine 1 4 bile private banks paid 160;00441. 1/•)n.1 an issue
feeling; but without meaning an) disrespect, he I equal to only one-half of the Built of E 'and.
must say, that those sentiments were not known east- I Mr. GRENFELL hope,: the iibt.. ';entleasen
ward of Temple-bar. His Hon. Film], wished to , would make a motion on that subj..ct ; if not, he
know the nature of the bargain with the Bank, and ! pledged himself to make it. De believed, that up to
the amount of the emoluments which they derived : last month, the amount of Bach.itotes in ciradatiou
froM it. For his part, he must declare them to be i was 27 minions.
most exorbitant, and he thought another arrange- 1 After a few ,s nrds from Mr. MELLISH', • the
meta could be made with great advantage to the !question was put, and rarrie,l, that the further 4e.,
public, if the House would take it up. If the House 1, bate on this matter should be adjourned to that day
were to say, " this is a bad bargain," the Court of i se'nnight.
Directors would give way, and be contented with
moderate profits. He agreed that they ought to
have liberal profits as a remuneration for the time
and abilities they employed ; but they now took ad-
vantage of the exigencies of the State, and demanded
too much. Nobody could deny that the Bank de-
rived exorbitant profits from the issue of their paper,
which, previous to the time of the restriction, they
could not have expected ; and, consequently, they
ought to be satisfied with a moderate return for con-
ducting the public business. The Court of Directors
woold consider themselves much indebted to the
1 Right Hon. Gentleman for defending their interests,
but he had not given a satisfactory answer to the real
end only object of the resolutions of his Honourable
Friend. He hoped, however, when the resolutions
were printed, that every Gentleman would have an
1 opportunity of considering the question more fully,
and of ascertaining the answer of the Directors them-
; selves.

REM TH Y OF SLAVES.

, I Mr. WI IBER.FORCE rase, pursuant to notice,
to bring under the consideratioa of the House his
motion respecting the Ilaeistry of Slaves in the
• British Colonies. Ile felt a scisfection, he said, in
thinking that the measure which he intended to pro.
pose was one which involved no novelty of princi.
ple, but was, in fact, merely a supplement to the
Bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade. It had
been already adopted, to a certain extent, in the
i Island of Trinidad, after a most mature-end delibe-
rate investigation, and had proved highly beneficial.
He was happy to add, also, that the principle of the
measure was one which received the decided appro-
bation of the late Mr. Perceval, and which it had
always been his intention to extend to these colonies
I which have Colonial Legislatures, as well as to those
which bad not. He was concerned to hear, how-
ever, that he might expect to receive oppositinn front
'many Geutlemen in that House, who represented the
West India interest in it ; and that opposition rem.
dered it the more necessary that he should distinctly
state the great principle upon which he intended to
rest his measure. The object of it was not merely
to check the various mems by which theabolitioat
laws were evaded or violated, but to prevent the
continuance of the source of !Ito evil itself. Many
. of his friends who then head him would remember
that during the various discussions upon the Aboli-
tion of the Slave Trade, it was constantly urged,
both in that House and out of it, that no suhstan.
dial benefit could be obtained, unless measures were
devised to introduce those moral regulations with
respect to the treatment of the slaves, which might
secure a supply .of slaves without looking to the
slave market for that supply. The great object of
the Abolitionists at that time certainly was to stop the
supply from Africa, and that; lay the foundation.
for any superstructure which it might afterwards be
expedient to raise. But it was impossible to do alt
that might have been a ished at once; and indeed he
would frankly confess that when the Slave Trade
!Bill passed, the friends of that measure did not dare
to encumber it then with more extensive operations
than at that' time belonged to it. Now, howe
ever, the period had arrived when supplements.
ry measures might not only be resorted to, but
when in fact they were called for from the prac,e
tices which undoubtedly existed in the West India
Islands. He most earnestly entreased those Gentlemen
therefore, who intended to resist the motion he
should have the honour of submitting, maturely and
deliberately to weigh all the merits of it before they
were induced to oppose it. He had been iuformod,
from various sources of intelligence, that the illicit
introduction of slaves into the West India Islands
(he was bound, in justice, however, to except the
Island of Jamaica) was still carried on to a very
great extent, and a strong fact in confirmation of
that intelligence was, that there had been but little
increase in the price of slaves since the passing of
. the Abolition Act. Great and dreadful abuses also
in the treatment of those unhappy beings still pre-
vailed, and it was impossible, he feared, to expect
any beneficial reform till some positive enactment
took place which should clearly render it the inte-
rest of those who had a property in them to pro-
mote their comforts, and secure the means of thtir
increase without any possible supply from Africa.—
He was now contending for the happiness and be-
nefit of the West Indian slaves, and undoubtedly
if there were any meow; that could be propos•al
which would reinter completely etfe.qual the Abell-
: tiott Act, lie could not doubt that the House would
be earnestly disposed to promote them. He would
therefore state to the House the measure which he
had in contemplation for accomptishiug that object.
It was, in fact, by the wails of registering the
slaves. The [louse was aware that a register of
them was already kept in every island ; but it was
not so particular and exact, as to render it a specift-
. cation by which the identity of the slave could be
: ascertained. The mode of registry which he
in-
tended to propose would precisely accomplish that
object ; a duplicate or counterpart of it %fluid also
!be transmitted to this country, where it would be
preserved, and constitute the title of the owner to
I the negro ; so that iu order to prove that title or
' claim to a negro, it would be absolutely necessary
to produce the register. The illicit intiodectien of
slaves would thus be effectually prevented, as nit
frauds or falsification in that resister would be sub-
jected to heasy punishment. Such was the leading
' principle of his measure, which aas so simple that it
explained itself, and so safe and so useful, that lie
thought it would be laying the foundation stone of a
reform which would gradually operate through all the
ramificatioas of West Indian management with re-
spect to slaves ; and if such were the effects that
mielit be anticipated, who that felt any interest
in the welfare and happiness of those unfortunate
beings, would hesitate to give his support to it ?
With respect to the objection, that the measure would
interfere with the Colonial .I..ogislaturss, he denied
its cogency. The most enlightened of those Legis-
lators would also deny it. The paramount right 01
controul on the part of the Legislature of this coun-
try had been at all times acknowledged. On this
subject the delusion would soon pass away, as it had
passed away on the subject of the abolition of the
Slave Trade itself—a measure which was now uni-
versally allowed to be one of undeniable justice and
humanity. It was not to be expected that the ('O-
- Powers should resist the operation of this
proposed measure ; and were they to resist it, th it
resistance would be ineffectual. There were OW
consideratintis, ef a much more powerful nature,
to induce the lif,use to accede to his propootoel
arising out of the duty of Parliament to pruritic la