The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

Passing over.—Tear, hear!]—lle - thought the 1
4` onus probandt lay upon the side of those
who, contrary to all reason and experience,
entertained such fears from priesteraft. But, sup-
ising such a perverse faculty of persuading in Bo-
naparte, and such a modum recipiendi" in the
pope, was it likely that the effect would be a revolu-
tion more complete than alt the Clergy, Nobility;
and population had been able to accomplish? The
question divided itself into two parts—the will and
the power. It was true that the Catholic had been
once the general religion of Europe, but he denied
that any instance was to be found In the history. of
modern Europe, in which they had. attempted to
erect a hierarchy on the ruins of the Government un-
der which they lived. But should such a design
enter into their contemplation, how was it to
be opposed ? By reason, if it was introduced for
discussion into that House ; and by force, if force
*as applied for its establishment. —Looking at
the Church before the distinctions of Catholic
and Protestant were known, they would find
that in its primitive state and under the. ty.
ratiny of the Caesars no such attempt was made,
but at present having placed great moral forces in
their hands, we had stimulated their desire for
higher. As to the danger of the Church of Eng-
land
he was unable to discover it. That Church
(alluding to the Church of England) which, though
nursed in persecution, had wound itself into .the I
habits and affections of the people, could only be en- !
dangered from another quarter. It could support
itself, and continue secure in the love and esteem of :1
all who had the happiness to live under its influence.
Cemented by so much blood, purified by so
many martyrdoms, it was not to be overthrswn
by a few sectaries of any description. Another
objection of his Right Honourable Friend was,
that the Catholics would refuse to pay tithes !
to the Protestant Clergy, or rather that they
would transfer them to their own; but he would
refer his Right Honourable Friend once more
to the Ndict of Wants, the twenty-fifth article of
n Mat states, " that the personkprivileged by the State
should pay tithes to the Clergy of the Established
Religion." Another danger apprehended was, 'that
no securities would be given, the Veto having been ;
refuted : for his part, he thought that the Veto ought
to have been granted. It-was granted to Prussia by
her subjects, and should not be withheld by ours.-1
He differed decidedly from those Gentlemen who
thought of conducting the work of conciliation I
like a negotiation between two hostile Powers.
That was not his notion of legislation.-- ,
In his opinion, where the gift could be offered
with safety, it should be offered, take -it or
leave it who would. [Hear, hear!) To suppose, at
this time of day, that every political establishment
bad not a right and claim to secure itself by all ne-
cessary means, was a thing too absurd for refutation ;
but arguing on the principle, he did not think the
mode proensesi was either just or beneficial. The '
Roman Catholics had adjourned their late meeting to'
the vest month, for the avowed purpose of prepa- •
ring a petition to the Throne. He thiiught they
were right in determining on such a petition. It was
uaturd, foe they had obtained every thing.that was'
hitherto granted at. the recommendation of. the !.
Throne; and the complicated details that would be 1
necessary in the promotion of that great nork, would •
best proceed from the Government. There were :
other grounds that induced him to disapprove of the ;
present motion, and one of them was aground which
his Noble Friend bad represented as rendering it
peculiarly eligible. Ile alluded to the present irri-
tation,
the effect of which would be to make men
look at the question less as a practical benefit than as
a trial of strength. It should be brought forward un.
der other circumstances, and the friends of the measure
were wrong to interrupt, as it were, the expected grace.
lt was impossible for any one who conversed with the
various mtiks.of the community, not to see that they
entertained great prejudices against the measure—
prejudices which time, and temper, and reason could I
alone overcome. He would have advised the Catho-
lic Body not apply to the house, until they found i
how they were received in another quarter.
.They
eere not yet, however, deprived of the hope of '
surress—at least they wet° not driven to the certain-I
ty of despair. Had this been . the case, be should
Lave expected that they would have come forward in
a tone of complaint, a tone which was in itself a
sort of consolation and of revenge. But to that I
state they were not driven, and therefore he wished
that the present application had not been made.
—He was aware that a person who did not
go the entire length Tith the .prejudices and
feelings of others, had little else to console himself
nith than the conscientiousuess.of doing right. For
his part, wishing well to the Catholics, not as Ca-
tholics, bet as a part of the community, he wished !
that the question was set at Test, though not iu the
manner recommended by his Hon. Friend : not as
the victory of one part over the other, but as an ar-
rangement for the good of the kingdom and Consti..
tptuttn. He did not understand his. Noble Friend's '
!kw of the Constitution ; he appeared to look upon',
it as if it were written in one book, and to be read at
one glance; and alluded to the Revolution, as if it
had been manufactured ; but that was not the way in
which he (Mr. C.) beheld it. Ile looked upon it as
• distinguished from that of France bJ au endeavour
not to create, but to establish ; not uy a passion for
expert mentali zing new theories, but a desire to confirm
the ancient venerable practices made and handed
dawn to us even by our Catholic ancestors. He
did not like the picture which his Right Ho.
tiourable Friend drew of it, but regarded it
en a larger atul more extensive scale 44 Pen-
lentenique sinus ; et vasta viste vocantent cterukuns
iu greemium." He should hesitate long if he thought
that the vote which he was about to give this
night would tend in any manner to further the pit.-
Pose his Right Hon. Friend ; but as he thought it
could' have no such tendency, and was of opinion
that to vote in a different manner would not lead to

any practical advantage ; for the reasons he had al-
ready slated, he must, however reluctantly, oppose
the motion.
Sir J. NICHOLL, in explanation*, disavowed any
wish to re-enact tlie restrictions from which the Ca-
tholics had already lieen relieved. So far was he
in entertaining any disposition of that nature, that,
,re such a proposition made, it would, meet with
Ins decided opposition. Nor bad he, as represented

by the Right Hon. Gentleman, intimated any con-
viction that the exclusion of the Catholics should be
perpetual ; and he really thought that, in his origi-
nal speech, he had sufficiently guarded himself from
such a misconception.

Mr. CANNING, in explanation, admitted that
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had, with
respect to the first subject, sufficiently guarded him-
self in words from the imputation of being favour-
able to the re-enactment of the restrictions on the
Catholics ; but his argument certainly tended the
other way. He was happy, however, that the lion.
and Learned Gentleman had an opportunity afforded
him of distinctly disclaiming any such disposition.—
•With respect.to the other point, he had certainly
misconceived the Hon. and Learned. Gentleman
through the whole of his speech ; for he had decid-
edly understood him to say, that in his opinion the
time would never arrive for granting to the Catholics
a participation in the rights.of their 'fellow-subjects.
Mr. HUTCHIMON, as he had been called upon
in so pointed a manner by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, would trespass upon the indulgence of the
!louse for a few moments. This was not the first
time in which he had heard the Right lion. Gentle-
man conclude a most brilliant display of eloquence
by giving a miserably bad vote. Ile had not more
admired the great talent which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman possessed, than the prostitution of that ta-
lent for the purpose of makiuxbed and wicked im-
press ions.—(A loud cry of Order!)
The SPEAKER requested the lion. Gentleman
to abstain from using expressions of so strong a na-
ture.

• Mr HUTCHINSON resumed. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had declared that the motion of which he
(Mr. H.) had g'ven notice, was one not to be argued,
but a' ome denied. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
however, who was himself one of the Administration
which forabd an union with Ireland founded on
promises, every one of which had been violated,
ought not 6, be his lecturer on such a subject. He
felt, he was alischarging his duty to his country, when
he met with the Right Hon. Gentleman's decided
disapprobation. Ile contended that the Irish Go-
verment had done every thing to inflame and dis-
affect the Catholics. Their claims were just—they
ought [fever to renounce them ; and he was pen.
suaded that there would be no safety for the empire
until they were accorded.
Mr. PEELE observed, that as the object of the
Catholics wis the acquisition of political power, a
reference osght to be had to their former conduct, to
see how they had exercised power when in the pos-
session of it. Ile had not heard any satisfactory ex-
planation of the real views of the Catholic Assem-
bly. It had beeu said that their object was to pre-
pare a petition ; hut were the terms or the prayer of
that petition so difficult and so novel as to require the
meeting of Catholic Peers and sons of Peers, in order
to f ante it ? In his opinion, the Irish Government
had no option, but were compelled to enforce the
law. He thought the motion' of the Noble Lord in-
judicious, as the warmest advocates for the Catholic
claims would be justified in refusing to accede to the 'I
appointment of the proposed Committee. Even Lord
Grenville, in his letter to Lord Fingal', had disap-
proved the presentation of a petition, the object of
which was the appointment of a Committee; and
now the Noble Lord opposite moved for the appoint-
ment of a Committee without any petition. This
might not be unjust to the Noble individual of whom
he had spoken, for whom great allowance might be
made for change of opinion, but it was unjust to
those who concurred with that Noble Lord, to be-
lieve that the lapse of 20 months would make such
a difference in theirsentiments. To grant the Ca-
tholics all that they required, would be to place them
upon more than equality with their Protestant bre-
thren. • One stop of concession led to another. If
the Catholics were admitted to two branches of the
Legislature, he wished to know on what ground
I they could be refused access to the third ? He begged
Ito be understood, that in giving his vote on the pre-
sent occasion, he by' no means pledged himself to any
opinion on the Catholic claims, but merely exptessed
his sense of the inexpediency of such a Committee as
'that proposed.
Lord GEORGE GRENVILLE argued in favour
1 of the motion, and contended that the more fre-
quently the Catholic Claiens were considered by
Parliament, the more fully would their justice be
! established.

Mr. HERBERT did not impute any blame to the
Irish Government for their recent conduit • but
would vote for the enquiry, as calculated to be pro- i
ductive of much good.
Sir A. PIGOTT controverted the opinion that this I
wan not a proper time for conceding to the Catholics
their Claims. The Honourable and Learned Gen-
man seemed to think, that when the Irish should be
educated--when they should be conducted from ig-
noranie to knowledge, and from turbulence to or.
der, that would be the time for such a concession.—
For
his part he had no hope of living to see such a
time. The Right Honourable Gentleman, who, to
such a !militant speech, had tacked sdch a lame and
impotent conclusion, declared that when prejudices
were subdued, and the question could be entered ,
upon with' a general concurrence of sentiments, that,
in his opinion, would be the time for granting to
the Catholics their Claims. Of the arrival of this pe-
riod he was as hopeless as he was of that described
by the Hon. Gentleman. In his opinion the conces-
. sion should be immediate. If Ministers would say'
that 15 days after the present day the question might be
considered with more propriety he would not object
Ito the delay; but this they had not yet said. From
the rear 1801, the period of the Union, the Catholics
hadbeen out of the pale of the Legislature. For this
' exclusion, reasons well known to everyone had been
I urged. The only consolation which every good sub-
jet had, amidst his distress for the unhappy situation
of his Majesty, was, that the consideration of the
grievances of Ireland was thereby opened to Parlia-
ment, and that the unctions of the Legislature, which
had been so long suspended, need no longer be so,
for it was quite Impossible, and indeed would be as
absurd as false, to suppose that the August Personage
who represented his Majesty did not feel himself free
to listen to the advice of Parliament on that as well
as ai‘y other subject. What was the history of Ca-
itholic Committees ? From the year 1757, when the
idrish Catholics
had the miserable privilege of . re-.
claiming au acre of bog land, and of having half ap

acre of arable land for a potatoe-garden, provided
they kept at a proper distance from any town, they
had invariably, and with the best effect, made their
application to Government through the medium
-of Committees. These Committees had not only
negociated with Government, but at times had
even been presented to the King; and one of
them existed in this favourable state at the very time,
in the year 1793, when that memorable Act, of which
such dangerous use had recently been made, was
passed, to prevent the appointment of reresenta-
tives for any portion of the people of Ireland. In
the history of any statute, the occasion which called
for it was important. In what necessity did the!
Convention Act originate? In the existence in the I
province of Ulster of a Legislature, whose serious
consideration no subject of Government ever es-
caped—who
discussed even the important question
of peace or war, and who at length came to a con-
clusion to summon at Athlone a Convention of all
Ireland for Similar purposes. The Irish Parliament !
then thought it time to interfere, and the Convention I
Act was passed. All meetings for the purpose of
petitioning ought to be openly prohibited, if to meet
for that purpose was an offence in the eye of the law.
Those who wished to petition ought not to be led '
into a snare by an idea that it was only intended to
prosecute thipe who met under the pretence of form-
ing.a petition, but having in reality some other oh-
jectin view, if the purpose of petitioning were after
*Mt* be the subject of prosecution. Be then pro-
ceeded to comment on the provisions of the Conven-.1
ties Act, which he contended did not apply to the
late proceedings of the Catholics in Ireland. lie
thought the Chief Justice of the Court of King's
Bench in Ireland was not quite correct in issuing the 1
warrant he had granted, and gave it as his opinion,
that had a similar application, on a similar occasion
been made to the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of'
King's Bench iu England, he would not have granted
his warrant, but have seat the business before the
Grand Jury.
Mr. WELLESLEY POLE said it had bmn at-
tempted by those who wished to disturb the public
peace, to make it believed that the Convention Act
had been put in force, not to maintain the law, but
to persecute the Catholics, In order to disprove this,
it ,was necessary to take a view of the proceedings
of the Catholic Body. He would not trouble the
House with the whole of the proceedings, as he had
been obliged to do last year, but he thought it neces-
sary to call their attention to one circumstance. The
Catholic Committee formed in 1793, was revived in
1809, and held its sittings in 1810. The assembly,
it was known, was not strictly lawful, and this
stated, it had been asked, if it was unlawful,. why
was it not put down earlier than it was ? To this
the answer was, they were anxious to treat the Ca-
tholic body with the greatest lenity, and with the
utmost forbearance, and therefore, being less strict
in enforcing the' law than they would have otherwise
been in a case where any other class of sub-1
jects was concerned. It was a mistake to suppose
the Convention Act was framed for any particu-
sect. Had any other body proceeded so far, it
would have been attempted to bring it to bear en
them. The Committee were suffered to go on for
some time, till it was found they had recourse to every
thin. that could influence the public mind. They
had all the forms of a Parliament. They had their
Committees, their Sub-Committees, their Committees
of Grievances, their public and private Redressors,
&c. &c. Their proceedings were such, that even in
their own opinion they went too far, and were afraid
of the consequences. It was when they had it in
contemplation greatly to increase their numbers that
the Circular was issued. They had, however, been
censured, as having interposed at an improper time.
This, however, was not the fact. Lord Ffrench and
others, the most respectable of their body, had al- I
ready seceded from them, and these proceedings were
those of the most violent and least respectable !
that remained. They thought it their duty to
stop the evil as they did, and accordingly it was
stopped. To his knowledge, the ten additional.
Members from each county had never met. The
Lord Lieutenant had permitted a small body
of the Committee to meet from time to time ; and j
from this conduct it had been said, that they had
weakly abandoned a plan rashly adopted, and that I
their conduct was marked by madness, folly, intern-
perance, and intolerance. The Right lion. Gentle- !
mai then proceeded to describe the proceedings of
the Irish Catholics, and read to the House their Re-
solutions of the 9th July, which announced their
intention to persevere in their plan of adding to their
numbers ten persons from each county, five from
each parish in Dublin, and for the first time the Ca-
tholic Prelates, and the eldest sons of Earls were'
named as members of the Convention, making in
the whole a body of four hundred and seventy-seven
persona. When the Lord Lieutenant saw this he
was struck in various ways. Ile thought it a most
lamentable thing that Lord Fingall should lend I
himself to a body, which, if allowed to act as a
Convention, would eventually annul the Government.
Oa the great question of the Catholic Claims, which
had been so much insisted upon in the course of that
night's debate, he must beg leave, even at that late
hour, say a word or two. It was true that he had I
uniformly voted against the prayer of the Catholic j
Petition, but he had as studiously avoided delivering
any opinion upon its merits. The motive for such;
conduct was a deiire to avoid saying any thing either '
to irritate the prejudices of the Catholics, or raise
and flatter their expectations. He had turned the
matter often and seriously in his mind, and he felt
no small anxiety that something might be done to
meet the wishes hnd to tranquillize the minds of that
large description of his Majesty's Irish subjects. Ile
never was the man to say, that no consideration
of times and circumstances should ever dispose
him to admit their claims. Neither had he ever,
said; nor was he now prepared to say, that the Le-
gislature should not attempt some arrangement to
grant the prayer of their petition, as far as the
granting of that prayer should continue to be con-
sistent with the security of our Establishments in
Church and State. He should never, at the same
time, even ga to that length, if they continued to ,
maintain the tone and attitude which they lately had
assumed. Before he would consent at all to enter-
tain their Petition, he should observe their conduct !
and the manner in which 'they should present it to •
I Parliament. If that manner had any thing in It

which announced turbulence, insubnidlni'fioo, 4ire-
sistance, in any shape to the law 9 of the laud, he
would be among the first most strenuously to reject
it. But if, on the contrary, their behaviour and
temper bespoke moderation, tornesratteep and a due
submission to the law, he would be as fortVard
any man to promote its success,and rejoice es 8;111'
cutely as any Viian in the accomplishmenf•of their
wishes, as t's. as those wishes could be gratified
out daugr, or detriment to the Church and glair!:
Mr. RTIEItID AN said, tie Right Hon. Geqtlensan had re;
appeale.l to biro, althosign ne had not uttered one word
daring she. course of the debate. But as he had so appealed
bin, he must beg leave to say a word or two on the manner and
mutter of the Right lion. Gentieumai, whom he should be proud
to call his Friend. He really, had a high opinion of the mind
aid comprehension of the Rigin lion. Gentleman; but he had.
made uo display on the present occasion of Muse talents for
winch lie was willing to give him credit. On the contrary, ha
had taken a narrow and pitiful view of so great and important A
question, and stullal his speech with endless extracts-of the mos;
inferable mintitire„the must paltry and contemptible trash, and
Itint in the discussion of a question the most in oinentoni that could
come into discussion; for the question of that night was, Whether
Ireland 3tiould 'he preserved in her allegiance to the British
ICrown by toncillation and jim:ice, or driveu into theories of th
enemy, by injustice, tyranny, and oppression ? This was the
real question before the House, and not tneeely the Catholic
els ms, which formed only a part of the mars of grievancei
of which lreland had to complainsand on which be would trots=
j hie the thine of Commons more at ut a more favour-
able moment. Indeed, be had no intention of uttering a %yard
that night, and the few words, be had uttered were extorted
fro .n him by the tone and the tenets 'which ' charac-
terised the speech of the Right Honourable Secretary. Who,
indeed, could hear, without krlings of indignation, that jus-
, ticeand-rig?t should be refused to a p ople, merely because
' surue of their advocates may have used indecorous and intempe;
rate language is the assertibn of their claims) The Right
, Honourable Secretary called on the Irish Catholics to
I forward in an attitude of submission and humility; with
a tone and language that beipokemeeknese:. moderation, and lint-
j bearance. But while he was thus demanding from the Catholics
every demonstration of mildness, sub:nission, and docility, he
was himself making use of language, and insisting on topics,
i which no men, conscious of their rectudeand of the justice of
their claims, could have temper to listen to, or patience to en 4.
dare. Ile should not now trouble thrrHonseam v i'arther, but con 4
eluded with moving, That the House do now adjoilrn.
I Adjourned to this day, when the Debate wilt be returned.