The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-06-20 00:00:00

a Oren grievously disappointed; bat he still believed that
e Marquess Wellesley, as the. head of the Irish °overate
went, was sincere in his desire to testis. those 'spec-
aliens that bad been formed. Ile would not fling from
Ills mind that belief, though he could only account for the
disappointment he experienced, by recollecting the ditli-
enhies with which the Noble Marquees hid to contend.
The Resolution (part of which the NobleLord.read) said
that the causes of the evils which afflicted Ireland were
deep in the system; such was the fact, and they were not
evils that could he remedied by Petty Sessions' Ave, by
Orating large sums for Glebe-hoeset and Churches, ice.
They would not remove the long series of lajeries and
oppressions, and the recollections which they left on the
minds of a high-spirited, •generons, and bold people.—
From the period of the Union,-no Government had pos-
sessed the power to treat the people of Ireland with that
kindness tilde) have been beneficial to both countries. A
Noble and Learned hoed (Redestlale, we believe) had, on
a former occasion observed, that there was one law for
the tich and another for the poor, and both of them exe-
cuted very badly. That was the case, and such fact
showed then part of the evil. But the Noble and Learn-
ed Laid to whom lie had alluded, last year expected that
Government would do something ; and that had been the
expectation of other 'Noble Lords. The measures then
required by the Ministers had been granted; time had
elapsed; hut was Ireland quieted?—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lend at the head of 'the Treasury had last year
tirade an appeal, ad kominem, to them, observing that
the appointment of the Mat trees Wellesley was an ear-
nest t, at the Government nutter' to probe the evils...—
Bet how Lad they probed the evils? What bad they
don-? They had produced the Tithe and Distillery
Bills.—(:fear, hear.) Were those measures all that the
country had a right to expect? The Government ought
to he established for the public good. bet them look to
tic i (Teets of the Government in Ireland • let them judge
of The tree by the fruit; and then let it be stated whether
they had resulted from the faults of landlords, or the
imperfections of schoolmasters? The state of Ireland
confirmed the maxim, that there was no security for any
eight or law, except is here the pele had a share io the
political privileges. Never had there been a people so
long in an abject state as Ireland. Recollecting the cha-
racter of the peoale, and calling to mind what they were
sill suffering, to adopt the language Of the lawyers, be
maintained that a prima facie case was made out for in-
quire. lie hid no expectation that any Divine right
would be urged—a doctrine which he hoped was now re-
pudiated by the people, however it might be received by
Cabinets. He was desirous that justice should be done.
'line present state of the world made it incumbent that
justice should be done to Ireland in particular; fee
Vraoce was likely to become more daogeroas to this
country than ever it was in the reign of Napoleon's
}tower, if success attended the present contest. There
'Jolla he snore danger towards their Protestant Govern-
ment— and he did not speak without some knowledge of
the sAject—froin the enmity of Prance, triumphant over
Sp do and Portugal, and backed by the Holy Alliance,
the Army of the Faith, and the Jesuits' Missionaries.--
If nutting were dune for Ireland, he feared, that they
would neither have the power nor the will to preserve it.
A Government to be legal meet her founded cm the affec-
tions of the people; a Government by force was illegal.
If the present system of Government in Ireland were
entWuned—he might not live to see it—none of their
Lordships might live to behold the event; but if the
system were t ersevered in, the contest would ultimately
end in rending one pail of the empire from the other.—
For these reasons he pressed on the House the policy of
teinpting the motion, and Instituting timely inqairy.—
(ilear, hear.)
Loud li ING spoke in favour of the motion.
The Duke of LEINSTER said in reference to what
had fallen (rota one of the Noble Lords relative to the
Society for the Education of the Puor, he was himself a
supporter of the measure, and abont two years ago he
twos obliged to withdraw from it, and unless some means
ii ere Liken tt would fall to tire gronral.
The blarquess of LAN SDOWN was astonished, at this
late pet ilia uf the session, after so much had been saiu,
that nothing had been done for Ireland. He had bees
astonished to hear the Noble Lord talk of boons bevies
been conferred. With reference to the Act by which the
• importatiou of corn was regulated, that, so far from '
being a boon, was a measure of the most obvious, clear,
and substantial justice. (Hear, hear, bear.) For what•
was or ire just than that this country, which found a
market for her woollen, cotton, and hardwares in Ireland,
s'eu old in turn consume the only commodity of that
- country, her provisions? With respect to the making
of roads, he believed the Noble Lord had not read the re-
. port of the engineer, or he would not have called road-
tuakinig beneficial to Ireland. He would there have seen
th it it was a mere job totem) the landlord and his te-
nant, for the sole benefit of the former, who, provided he
got the amount of his presentment in advance from the
treasurer, which he could easily do by paying a discount
of 10 per cent. did not care a pin afterwards how the
road was made. With respect to education, there bad
been schools for educating Protestants, hut none for
educating the Catholics; and when it was found that
the Cetholice would not be converted, would it not be
better to educate them their own way, than leave them
- without any education at all? The Commissioners of
Eduelion had recomnientled the establishment of paro-
ch;al scheols in Ireland, but the recommendation had
nut been carried into effect; and the Noble Baron him-
self had recommended, when in Ireland, that two and a
half per cent. on the livings of the clergy in Ireland
should be applied to the support of parochial schools,
but neither had that recommendation been complied
with.but when the Insurrection Act was called,for no de-
lay was admitted (hear, hear.) The measures which the
, Noble Earl had held out, in expectation, for the ameliora-
tion of Ireland, bad not been carried into effect, but the'
abuses of the laws had been allowed to demoralize the
people When the grievances of Ireland were stated in
Parliament, it was laid that they could be remedied with-
out the aid of Parliament—that if landlords were consi-
derate—if the peasantry were industrious—if the magis-
trates were impartial, and if the country gentlemen
would reside at home, the state of Ireland would im-
prove. But were net all the evils complained or, the
natural consequences of the misgovernment of the coon-
.try? (hear, hear, hear.) If all the records of history
could be effaced, it would only be necessary to look at
the present state of Ireland, and it would not require
the profound penetration of a flacon or a Montesquieu,
to determine that she hail been 'the victim of misgovern-
meat for the last hundred years (hear, hear.) It was
riot to common. measures they were to look tor the ex-
tinction of such deep-rooted evils (hear) They bad
lately beard that, the balance of power in Europe was a
chimera, and tie wise men who ma le the discovery Lad
instituted for it a balance of opinion at home ; and it
apps .red their greatest dread was a predominance of opi-
• him) in the Cabinet in favour of lieland. It was inlet's-
Ode that Ireland e..eild be placed in the state she had a i
right to expect from the Legislature by such a Govern-
aneut (hear, hear). Credit had been taken fur diminish-
ing the taxes of Ireland, but it bad out been done tilt the'
country wee io impoverished as to be unable te pay:.
and eves iu this stite, the expense of the laws was so
great. that the courts of justice were shot ag.aiaat. all
. Ind the rich. Ireland was in a state different from as I
. country in the world, both by the divisiiios that exis '
and tne separation of the church from the people; a
opinion prevailed that the law was not the friend of the
people, which was the effect of giving all the power to
one privileged class; fur though Catholics were admit-
ted by law, they were excluded by the
.praetice. The
Catholics were eligible to :?,540 Aces to Ireland, bat

THE •,STA'

they were is possession' of SO More than one hundred
sad six. (bear, bear.) The bare statement showed there
was a power at work is Irelandthatdrprived thoCatholte
th e enjoyment of the privileges to whi cis helms entitled,
and it most be difficult for a Lord Lieutenant who was not
supported by the lioveroment to remedy the eVil (bear.) I
It appeared by slate inquiry that had taken place, thtt in
Dublin Catholics were never admitted on a grand jury that
were to raise money. From the concurrent testimony of
all who were acquainted with Ireland, one of its greatest
evils was the deep-rooted opinion that was entertained' f
the sanctity of an oath taken to oppose the law. On a Mte
occasion, one of the highest inquests of the country ex-
amined witnesses on an important subject affecting the ad-
ministration of the laws. A witness appeared before them
of respectable situation—he reused to answer the questions'
put to him, alleging he was under the, obligation of one of
those unlawful oaths, which, in the plenitude of his We'
ranee, he thought was an obligation superior to that by
which he was bound to obedience to the law. A more brit-
tient opportunity could not occur of teaching the people of
Ireland the respect due to the law ; was the lesson taught?
it was not. He was allowed to shelter himself in disobe-
dience to the law on the mischievous principle of giving a
triumph to another party.—(Hear. hear.) If the Govern-
ment was not atroog enough to give a triumph to justice, it
not fit to govern.--(Hear. hesr.) The Noble Lord,
saking some observations on the Tithes Commutation Sill,
to which he said the landlords 6f Ireland would not agree
Is its present form, said he expected his Noble Friend's reso-
istion. if carried, would produce the best effects, and he
should therefore give it his warm support.
' The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he would admit that the
system under which Ireland was formerly governed was
bed; but Lord Grenville had stated, that no country ever
received more acts of justice and kindness than Ireland
during the late reign, and the same system would still be
followed ; and he was willing that the Marquess Welles-
ley's government in Ireland should be tried on that pried-
It was not to be expected that great manures could be
serried into effect suddenly ; but they were In progress, sod
would produce their effect. The greatest evil in the state of
Ireland arose from the want of connection between the rich
sad the poor, which. he hoped, might yet be remedied; and
Mike Noble Duke's motion led to any inquiry on that point,
be sight agree to it; but it was too general to be useful,
and, therefore, he must oppose it.
The Bishop of KILDARE defended the parochial Immo-
bents of Ireland from the aspersions thrown upon them in
the course of the debate.
The Marquess of LANSDOWNE explained.
The Earl of CARNARVON said, if it wait the wish of
the Noble Earl (Liverpool) to infuse a British spirit into
the population of Ireland, in Goe's name. let the House go
Into that committee by which the Noble Earl's wish might
be accomplished. The majority of that population were
treated as aliens in their native land. In the Noble Earl's
picture of Scotland, he forgot that the church establishment
was national, and not like that of Ireland, foreign to the
faith and feelings of the country—(hear, hear.) If their
lordships delayed the appointment of the committee, it might
happen at oo distant period that they would be compelled to
look their danger in the face, whea least prepared for such
an event. When all Ireland should be confederated to ex-
clude our dominion, our attempts to restore it might excite
only their derision. At former periods of their disturbances
their discontents was ascribed to foreign intrigue; but now
the dissensions of Ireland could proceed only from the
wildness of despair. The Noble Earl (Liverpool) alluded
vaguely to plans of relief ; but hitherto all the measures
of Government bad failed. It was therefore the duty
of their Lordships to take the business into their own
hands. The opposition to the inquiry arose from a dis-
position to shrink from a question, the consideration of
which appalled the Ministry. There was no measure
which the Noble Marquess at the bead of the Irish Go-
veroment should propose, that would not meet with a
more powerful and resolute opposition from one pin
of the Ministry, than it would receive able and elfici-
ent support from the other part. By delaying the in- I
fluky the House would incur the most serious respon-
stbility. He trusted that a majority of their Lordships'
vtonld support the motion of the Noble Duke. He
looked with no satisfaction at the Tithe Commutation
Bill. Whenever it was proposed to reform abuses in
Scotland. the articles of the Union with that conntry
were quoted against the change ; but though the Union
with Ireland expressly confirmed the at.olitioa of the
agistmeot tithe, yet no sooner was a Bill for commuting
tithes introduced into Parliament than the agistment
tithe was attempted to be restored in spite of the Union.
Under the present system of misgovernment, Ireland
was only a source of danger. Twenty thousand men
landed tbete might destroy the independence of the
empire. Policy, duty, justice, all imperiously required
that the interests of Ireland should be consulted. After
some further observations in support of the motion,
the Noble Earl concluded.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and their
Lordships divided :—Contents, 43; Proxies, IG, 59
Not Contents, 66 ; Proxies, 39, 105—Majority against
the Motion, 46.
The House then adjourned at half-past One. •

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