The Statesman.
London, England, 1818-02-12 00:00:00

OPOI6
would be left in a very awkward

Mr. LYTTF.LTON esplained.
Doctor PHILLIMORE.—." By..a late Treaty
chime:its, upon a sentence of restitution in our
Courts, were to recover a Mali, asses foe mei Mare
found on hoard ships brought in for adjudication to
the Admiralty Courts. Now, it would berlosirable to
know whether the claimant in such a case should be
entitled to make the demand of the Spanish or Britisit
Government ?"
Lord CASTLEREAGH thoeght that there amid
be no stronger claim in equity open the Spanish Go•
veipment than .a claimant's being in possession of a
sentence of restitution in a Prize. Court.
Lord A LTHORP considered the country in toe
distressed a state to afford so.large a subsidy to Spain
merely to do an act of•humanity. Besides, out own
charitable intention would most, likely bet doubted by
other cowntries,whe would naturally suppose we pro•
posed to ourselves some advantage from the arrange.
sepMr. Wlia • hich had cost this country so large a sum.
LBERFORCE.—Leaving oat altogether
the question of humanity, the mode now proposed
was more efficacious for all the purposes of the
Treaty, as well as the serest . and cheapest way of
ensuring to this • country the supplying of the native
Africans with those productions of Europe for which
they had already imbibed so strong a relish, mod were
daily becoming more attached. The supply of an ea.
tent of coast, from the River Senegal ap
ply 1 of
2,6C0 miles iu length; and. the interior trade arising
out of this supply on the coast, meat be an object of
great importance with this Country..
Mr. CA i..CRA FT admitted that two great points
vu teen gsittectchy the Treaty—the right of scorch,
• the Abell:lee-of the Steve Trade to a certain

were all,.British.as will u others,
the Spanish Government. 1.
Lord CASTLEREAGH staled,
they had only followed the, -1;46,
with Pertugai relative to thw.sami
therefore, would be the party to -
ander the Treaty shOold •pply.
Air. J• P. GRANT.--t• There
r,leim upon this fond, sot"' of b
,rat to plead, and We "We it to
pities paid,"
Mr. W. SMITH contended,
equally interested in the measure as a political
mercantile errangensent. •
. Sir ft. IIELtON feared the King of Spain would
be enabled to levy war with his revolted Colonies,
,with redoubled energy, in consequence of this graqt,
directly to ilia prejudice of the mercantile -interests
of this country.--[llear,‘hear I.]
The Resolution was then agreed:lei, itiulthe Noise
resomieg, the Report was ordered to be received to.
morrow. . . .
SPIES AND 'INFORMERS.
Mr. FAZAKERLY belted the indulgence of the
House, While he entered into a statement of trans-
action* I. which he felt it impossible not to draw the
attention of the House, inadequate as he conceived
himself to the task. Various circumstances bad
transpired on the occasion of the late trials, which
had corroborated the suspicions so generally enter-
tained, that Government had employed persons in the
disturbed counties to develop the conspiracies there
stated to have esistence, who had exceeded their in._
structlons, and added fuel to flame. It was indifferent
to him if Oliver or any other parties were branded with
the opprobium of having excited their fellow-sohjects
to acts of open rebellion. Thee circumstances, coupled
with the last Report of the Secret Committee of last
year,called loudly for satisfectoryexplanation from ihe
Executive Government, why they had not takes
any measures to bring these offenders themselves to
justice, when they had already taken so much pains
to bring innocent men to trial. The powers' of the
late Act for the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act had not been sparingly exercised. The jails
throughout that part of the country were filled with
petions accused of treason, and the provinces,
slimed by the extraordinary eireemetance of per-
sons dragged from jail to jail, laden with irons, and
finally slut up from all possible intercourse with
their friend!, by she most arbitrary exercise of who•
rity, solitary confinement.—[Near, hear, hear i
The whole conduct of Goiernment was a tissue of
measures the weakest and the most arbitrary.—
Whets these severities had concluded, the Govern-
ment had fallen all at once from their high tone,
and dricendmi to the absurd demand of recog-
nisance./row innocent MPII, which it was soon con-
sidered expedient to abandon, and the affair termi-
nated by a paternal admonition to return beneath
the sheltering auspices of a fostering Government.
[A laughs, and Hear, hear !]—The last Report of the
secret Committee had pointed out these men as pro. 1
per subjects of Ministerial vengeance, and as having
made an ithproper use of their comn.ission, jet no
attempt had been made to bring them before the bar
of their country.—(llcor!)—Although spies might
be resorted to, and the vices of the individuals con-
cerned in atrocious conspiracies he made the instru-
ment of public safety, still their testimony shoUld be
scrtititrised with the utmost scrupulousness, and ne-
ver be listened to without being accompanied by
proof of unequivocal corroborative facts. He cots-
eluded with moving, that it he an instruction to iliir
Committee now sitting, to enquire whether any and
what measures had been taken to detect and bring to
justice those persons who had been described by the
Report of the Secret Committee, of the '2oth June,
as having encouraged those designs which it was in-
tended they should have detected and brought to
light.
Mr. BATIIURST complimented the Hon. Mem.
her upon the manner in which he had brought for-
ward the present q •estinn. But he would rest for
the defence of his Majesty's Ministers on the Report
of the Committee, which had formed the ground-
work of the lion. Member's motion. As to Oliver's
conduct, as unconnected with the part he took in the
development of the treasonable designs of the con-
spirators, it had never been attempted to be impeach.
ed. With respect to Oliver, all lee had to say was,
that not a single person was ever taken up on his in.
formation. The lion. Gentleman had referred to the
eteceliope at Pertly. Now all that these executions
showed was, the spirit that prevailed in parts of the
country. it was this spirit which every where made
tbe accused say, " True, we are guilty, but it was
your agent made us so."—Ukar, bear!]—With
roped etp.what fell from one of the unfortustate suf.
hare in his dying moments, all he should sal wss,
titer Oliver never raw that person.
Mr. FAZAKFAII.X.—" I made no allusion what-
ever to the. trials at Derby, but to those in London."
Mr. BATHURST then said, that the lion. Gen.
tionsan'e argument did not apply, for the second Re-
port of the Secret Committee merely referred to what
was passing in the country, and not to any thing
connected with, the trials in London, which were
then terminated triumphantly for the accused. . The
Report of the Committee was founded upon ieforma?
tine relative to the disaffected in the country ; sod
Oliver had nothing to do its the way of excitements
or any thing else, with Brandreth and his comps.
nions, who said that Oliver and Government
were the instigators of their acts,, though it was ca.:
lain that this person miser saw the 'ceased, or bad
any coneectioe with.them. There was then no case,
whatever matte out against the Government through-
out the whole of there proceedings; and they were
surely net to blame, even if,, o or the whole cif-
parconstant:roof the case,. they , . uciede4 the 'lslet
lies of their duty for thespaseration of the public
pace. Goierninent invariably icted on information
which was corroborated by the statements of Magi-
strates is the couutry. Ou the %hole, there bring

and

Government _ yed
Lord-MILTON resented,- and said, that however
he may concur in the Right IloneurableGentleman's
premises, he most wholly differ from him in his
coinclusion. He would maintain that, if Oliver
asa not the cause of. these.disterbeaces,. -et least 4t,
cAild be said that they were the consequence of
his esertions among the Pitaplee—(llear, henr.l)
This spy had 'to assume the character of au asso-
ciate among them—be had to appear a particular
chancier in -their arts—and :en his movements
much depended, ard he verily believed a great
deal did turn on the acts of this meti-7—(flear!)—
The Report of the Lords'. Committee did Pardee-
larise the disturbances—it traced them to the mid-.
land and northern manufacturing districts, where
the People had been led to look up.to London for •
the' signal of action ;- and by whom were they so.,
influenced?—by Oliver —(Hear I) and to hie,
manoeuvres could be traced the whole violence that
had occurred. The connection between the country
isid London was the main point urged in the Report ;
•but by whom was that connection kept,ep ? by per,
sons specially sent down to the coeotry for thapur-
pose, by his Majesty's Secretary of State. The
Magistrates of Sheffield knew well that Oliver's
appearance kept up the spirit of the disaffected in
the country, where the greatest anxiety prevailed
to know the intentions of the London Delegate, as
he was called—this very delegate, who went down
en purpose to blow into a flame the 'scattered
Annbers of combustible matter which the distresses
of the times created.—( Hear, hear!)—lt was int%
possible calmly to revert to these matters without
being persuaded that 'much of the mischief Which'
prevailed was to be attributed to this man. Wilb5
respect to the dying declarations of the unfortunate
men at Derby, all he had to say was, that.he had
no information on which to found either a credit or
discredit as to the declaration. His mind was eq..
tainly rather indisposed to csedit what the unfortu-
nate men said, but he thought that a vast number of
the violent persons in the country had a right to com-
plain of the manner in which they were ultimately
involved through the swans of spies sad informers.—
[Hear !]—The fact was, that the strong and just
complaints against the use of them character, ema.
rusted from persons as little concerned with the dis-
affected, as either himacif or the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite. The Right lion. Gentleman had said
that no persons were taken upon the information of
O!iver; this was perhaps, strictly speaking, the case
—but might it not have so happened that he was the
cans-, though not in a direct manner, of the arrest
of a great number of these men whom he met in dif-
ferent pasts of the country ?—lle (Lord 'Milton) did
not complain of the arrest of these persons, though
he thought the time must come when an enquiry into
that circumstance must take place.—[Hear
!]—lt
wee a clear and indisputable fact, that wherever
'these spies went, symptoms of insurrection occurred;
bat where they did not appear, every thing was
`sulet.—[flear!]—So it was in the West Riding of
Yorkshire—there violence appeared, because the
fomenter 'of it got among 'the People—Vicar !]—so
it was in Derbyshire. •
Mr. RATHURST.—" Oliver was not there.",-:
[Hear, hear]
Lord MILTON." Dees the Right Hon. Gentle.
ban meals to persist in that declaration ?"—{,Heat I]
• Mr. BATHURST.—" He was not in the part of
that county where the insurrection broke out." •
lord MILTON.—IIe might not have been on the
identical spot, and yet tie might have mainly mind.
buted to what occurred there by his acts in its rid-
itity.—[l leer, hear-IT—But let the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman refresh his recollection a little relative to the
tour of Oliver—he can recollect what occurred from
two to eight o'clock, but he is not so precise at sub..
serpent hours. The House would not.do its duty
substantially and effectually for the country if •it did
mot now. einuire into the conduct of the men em.,
tployed by Government, and also 'into that of tbeW
employers.—[Hear, hear !]—lt was a little tests;
'much to hold the People of this country in such die-.
esteem, as to be astonished at their holding its just
abhorrence and indignation the characters of spies and-
informers. It was evidently the object of Ministers
to excite alarm last Session, and, they availed them-
selves of every subsidiary means to promote and ex-
tend that alarm. • The'imprudence. of the Peopld
ta
many instances furnished them with a ground for
their proceediegs, and of this they cordially availed
themselvee.—[Hear !]—Whatever obloquy he may
draw on himself by thus candidly stating his opi-
nien, he was ready to meet. As a Member of the
Committee, be also timed tastate,,that berreterned
his hearty thanks to his Honourable Friend whir
made the present motion, for giving him an oppor-,
molly of seeking further information on the mat-
ter about which they were to enquire. As one, el
the Committee, be of course stood only as an Ist
dividual, and bad but a single voice. The ~Grim=,
mittee were bound to, obey the opinion of Os
House, and be earnestly hoped that by acceding to
the present motion, the path of the Committee
would be made clear, and its duties implicitly deified.
—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. C. GRANT, junior, theught,tbe Non.
,Gene
Hems. mho made the "(wet motion, called on the
House to adopt a very novel proceeding, without stet-
iag any sufficient reason to justify their departure
hum the invariable course of Varlismentary forms.—

. _ sti nelfl
,en Oespreseot occasion, for Ii vs tfilit chefs.joctho,4.ote motion-74bet It Celle to have'h'uiltlilig
rerwrred,tw as Committee in which I cannot place del"
Sightest confidence—(Hear, 14471)7-nor can
country', when it recollects the persons eppointingthe
Committee, the -Members of which it is composedly
etid the enquiry they bare to make. The House us.
rot pot out of its mind that the party appointing the
Committee is tlie'Paity inlaid; and also the party to
furnish, the intidencr.whicls is to affect their oielleatt.- -
—( /kar !)--4s to the use of .spies,. and' defena of ,
them, I shall.sey but little I Chad leave
guardianship of..the Hight Hon. Gentlemen opposite'
(Mr., Hailtarst), rho is the chtmon suocher.for chew., •
factor at that aide of the House. • I, 'toot' otie, AA'
the-Right-Hon. Gentleman's :argeMent . was worthy"
of his cause—it furnished • the Ott .answer and anti.
dote te. his own statement-4liter; !)—=for he acidi
that the natural consequence of the employment of
these people (these were 'his very words), was to fo.
went the mischief they were merlin to repress.—(/dear!) 4
—lie shoaled off, as his Majesty's Gosernmeut ge.,
florally did, the reel luestion, and left these wretch-
ed beings, the spies,: lb shift for themselves—to be
employed by country Magistrates 'wherever their
services appeared.to he wanted.
.On the employment
of spies, I shell
°not now give a general opinion;
know the difficulty there must be in drawing i strict
line on such a subject, but I know that Whk•referi. •
vice to the late disturbanCes, spies employed by Go..
Torment have done acts which I cannot recollect with. •
out shame, or speek.of without indignatiott. They Ira.
yelled through Lancashire and other • parts of the
country in organized bodies ; they were fosteksod and
encouraged ; and dollish I shall• not flame partictilar
Magistrates, set I may say that at Bolton, persons who
were,ready to work sieteets heaps a. day,'iit the rate
of seven shillings a week wages; Were fauna to' pri.; •:
fer double that suns in the ft mOtoyenf7t4. of *soiling fbe
blood of their neighbours. . Captainc Reines has pub..
fished a book relative to these spies, and he souconei
On the conduct of a gallant Officer nevi no tow.,
and whom I shall not name because be no Woe,
lives to answer the charge brought against. him—
.Re states• tbe instructions given to these characters.
Aorl.bere I will appeal to the Member for Britisher
(Mr. Wilberforce) near use, and ask his opittion
of the responsibility incurred by" the employers of
wretches who could go about the country 'adminis.
tering an oath of secrecy, the terms of which cow.
witted their bodies to destruction, and threw hack
their souls to their Creator in the event of any
sio-
'mine of their pledges. I do not pretend to any,
particular regard for the sanctity of religion beyorid
that which any honest man ought to feel, but I•de
say it is shocking to hear the imputation made, that .
an English Officer should ,have encouraged men to
enlist under such an Oblidation for the sole perpae
dt
afterwards breakirog it. None but the basest of beioo
could leo& the least colon or countenance to tech
measures as these, and, as it was said, for the' suppeit.
of a legitimate Government—that is, to support tbl
laws, as they are termed, by a breach of Merl thing
that is lawful, every thing that is good. The Right.
lion. Gentleman opposite has , given a character to
Oliver, the iiisissarf. of Goverumen't. Here I beg the
House toltleitllect, that the connection between this
spy and the disaffected had arisenaccidentaly, of Se-
cidentallyi in the first instance, and before his CO!-
Election , with Government., Now when the Heel*
shall have ipeard the arse Iwo about to lay beforeit.
shall have beard the 'Matter I am about to
adduce-4 say it dire' not refuse the instriethWie
which are now Moved,for.—(Cker of hear, heer!)--.
I use the expression that• it dare not, berates I
know it cannot, by refusing the motion, consent
to
sink its character with the country !at large. The
Right lion. Gentleman panegyrisettlliver this Vert
ad he would Castle last yea'', who Was believettbyder
Auorney and Solicitor*Generali, reed by the
Judges' but, thank God,'not reed
Jery
(Hear, hear !)—Io reference to. the trial oat which
this fellow appeared, I do not wish to'be understood
as wholly acitaittlyg the persons therein coiinectert
—on the coutrery, I believe they were guilty of a
serious offence; but that offence web not Iligh
Treason.—(Cries of hear, hear !)—it • was not the
crime in which Government clothed it by the testis
snotty of the bully of a brothel, the Osier of forted
motes, the spy of the. Transport Office, the wrotcb
who war throat into the'teltness'e boa in the dress tif
Orptleman„ procured, fir him on the occlotiorf ttf,
ere a colour to hie appearance by the Police of Hews.'
street.—(Hear l)—On. the sebject'of Oliver,. wheal
excelletit Moral ,che:tiiMetfliedbeen so praiied
!Hight fioneurage .Gen time!), I shall say -mate•
thing to the Reese—l shall disclose some circem•
stances relative to It,, nititoot disclosing the source !!!
my information, although I have permission, Ir
necessary, ofete.,my authority for what Ism ew.
about to declare. ~This .Oliver,
so far as lit general •
reputation is known,
_began his career by the ' cowl
I mission of a ellq„effence, and has since gun rfi,
step by step until he reached the. present acme a
Ills forme.:, Like hie greet and gopol coodjour, Castle,.
be began career: by ,epnattuiting the crime of
bigamy ; •he .married one wife while the other MI
alive; .and as to other' parts of his character,
have to declare; diat'whenever be shall be pat into
witn 3,'s boa, I shall show that he o.sig, fLe tilse 11:
bolth 'o the mercy and forbearance of t...4et.

. ' 1 t"---t•'
• •1 I , • ';.)-4. . t, .. '
~.i- ...
' No-
'
....----4,... ‘.......... - - - ,,;•• ,,;•• I
. , tothedeclaration that t not WO o ' .•,
I.4:T4aq On Ire* iistooeld appeer to if thil, Isoptiolifilcie tee . • out, he would
eel King 01, Simla* /As Neill t receive' 410 'ik,,Jos ' oisee....•-..4-, - i,' -.... . . tiled those who were said to ye fonieneld As is,
vp4se_ibir*. *ilk!,
proofth e charge
ttheft
as was
o nbrtohoeg
presenthr eith
200,00 a. mud tbireonia„glAboot. was to. ii , jliootr 104 . Notidth,thst if ever be espid'ibe pep. *bane's, this was old, and on reset occasions hrt
propristed to making good Ake lessee incaysid , 11111.,119/00. itr; the•lionourableoffice of e spy,.
.been alleged, and as often refuted ; so it was in 1793,
captures under particular circumstances, and 'others he would wish to- itcriept the .engegemeet under the
consequent. -upon tits Abolition •of • tint SI a va.,l .111104304Putsble Comikni4- who bad just 44 6,1" asos it
titwtlaes sinemlrlalnc;eBonfd
Was it to be understoed, then, that these claimist.to -(71/141*, hear! and Inaelder)-7-frod whose speech occasion: -incur !]—lt was a little extraordinary •
were to bo referred to the Yoi;oniiih Goveitivioaß—i web eatcorststdsto mislead. Clue -111101041 the present bow Oliver. could he charged with. doing. 114111;c16 •r
410Leatcas.beqapvalssadad that _these legalctsiaseats Omelet:. -,- • .5_.,......_,,,.• . actualyL4,2l2itlace before. he went. into the count r. . ..
would bo left in a very awkward situatkto if they Mr. 8/4.f.HUWirts74vdthitsweimerogit, to or. T'iact was, igititeinititirejrant itiTiltlpers.
were all,_Ballish_as well as other', to be referred to der, told said, " Idesireig.know if the Noble Lord lion when he Dined in it. The Meetings on the lOtit
the Spanish Goveretnent. 1 , means to say that I wistaateatioually, te,iiiilAtithe and both March liqlpritiedid iiii-ar"!liallii-th-e-ctiin.•
Lord CAS'r LEREA OH stated; .ibit in • this case HOnse?"—(if tangle), _ ~ • try,
~.)f,it ostql.)po. 10 •theiollver',Wii the 4004
...
they had only followed the, iii,triedent of• e Treaty Lord MILTON retumd, and repeated, that the gator, .gtf.the Qtrtt,#.o:tvbil.. would. net they albs tiled ...
with Portugal relative it's
arty to subject. Spain, speech piths Right Honourabk Gentleman- pus cni. Learned Gemmel have attempted to sabstaaiiatitbac-
therefore, Would he the party to whom the claimants ciliated to mislead the .House.: He said, that .the fait ? world It not have strobe?. °Permed epee die. ' .
ender the Treaty should apply*. „, first mission of this Oliver bad bees undertakes with* the Jury, and indnee4.olnotin. the event of . ceivrit.' i'
Mr, J. E.GRA yr......" There tee persons yet to 01$ the permission of Government. . . lion to have accompanied their verdict with a receut.- . .
.
claim upon this fend, softie of *IA* have 'a judg. • Mr. BATHURST.—" I distinctly said,. 'bet, the mendellOn'tif mercy.'f•:-(Bilri.:'hhaft)Tlikt ibseerg
mint to plead, and Weise@ it. to oariaies to see these peisoni engaged la the .service of Government had, of as attempt of Ibis' kind. wit fit his. opiniipi; kr-i
parties paid," buso previously found engaged its these proceedings. poweeforspresumPtion that'‘ so seek 'Statement roal&ft
.
Mr. W. SMITH Contended, that France was Mier was fbond in
.conseetton with the disettoceei have belle supported. Its .nivoipeelil .case was midt. ••
.• • -____-__l , ..._ —........ o nolitical and ttriote*Bottornment employed him." out, bitioutd Cerbikiljr oppose the mo .
tient , ..,.....-41:
.
• _. •.1 L.
_ . ._. t._--.. Mr..HENNETT.-" Sir, I-find inyietflrst
- . AN" ' '
_.