The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-07-15 00:00:00

the Noble Lords opposite pot their case, in tact made I
against then,; for if a Hat of witnesses was giveu, it
must be a fu:l list, and hire could this be given? The
Noble I fords wi.hell for an impeachillent of her Mg-
jesty--if that took place, would thet ask that a list
should be furnished? It could not be done without a
commuaie.ation with the other House. Now, supposing
the list were famished even, was it not possible that
afterwards new charges might be preferred against the
defendant, whirl, required new witnesses? And he
himself knew a ,-are of impeachment, in which some
of the most material charges against the defendant
arose out of the examination bad at their Lordship'
bar, and not contemplated by the impeachment—fresh
witnesses were likewise introduced at the instance of
ref their Lordships. Their Lordships would them-
' wires bare a right to call other witnesses, besides those
' called by the arcuiing party. After the list of wit-
nesses w..s given, many circumstances might occur
which would enable her 3lajesty's Counsel to produce
delay. Indeed, no advantage would arise to the ac-
eased by this mode now recunimensled; and she might
be deceived, and put to great inconvenience by it. lie
contended that there would he no injustice on one side
or the other ; and therefore he would leave it to their
Lordships to decide which was must to be dreaded--
the power un the part of the Crown on one side, or
the popular clamour on the other.--(Hear, bear !)--
' The Illiistritais defendant should have every fair an .
liberal means of making Ler defence.
II Lord 110t.i.t7:9 maintained that this was a proceed-
ing of such a nature, that, in the consideration of it,
their Lordships. ,mglit u .t to be bound by any prece-
dents. 't lie Noble Earl opposite had delivered a just
enlogium on the administration of justice in this CUM,
try. But this eii •onsium, though most true, was ill-
placed on the present occasion ; for this proceeding
was an exceptiou to the general rule of justice, and
also to the law of Parliament. The present case was
a complete anomaly ; and it was a solecism to say, that
in considering it, their Lordships were to be pitted
by the principles whi,h belonged to other cases. 't heir
Lordships now said to the accnsed—u Your high
birth awl rank place you beyond the reach of common
tribunals ; and there is no other tribunal before which
you Can appear hot this.- Then, upon an application
being mole to their Lordships on behalf of her Majesty,
fur a part;cular indulgence, they turn round, and say—
' " We would willingly grant you what von ask fur, but
we cannot do so because we are tied down by prece-
dent."—(llear, hear D-I',.t they were at the very same
time departing from all rule and precedent. They cis re
acting the parts of accusers, jurors, and iudges, and, at
the same time, said they were hound down by rule and
precedent I An eminent slither, lie believed it was Lola.
Bacon, had said, that the rules and forms of law were
like the bark and rind of a tree; for that altlioneh they
11 did nut form an part of the timber of that tree, they
were the ammo through which it received its ntitri-
I meat; and tbrytheteeted it from the wind and weather.
But here the prate Ong forms of the law, which were so
necessary for the due administration of justice, were en-
tirely taken away. They had before them a strange
and. anomalous ease, and the Illustrious Person who
ins yhaaonkject of it. was placed in a most extraordi-
nary situitiuu. The Noble Lord had said, that a case
of treason was the only one hi which an accused party
was ever furnished with a list of the witnesses; but
would the Noble Lord say that a case of treason was
: the only one is whirl, the accused was able to learn
' the names of the witnesses? There was not one case
in one bemired in which an accused party cente tot-the
bar of a Court of Justice with so little klatiwleage of
the charge against her, or the case heel* des this Illns-
, trious Lady. When persons were taken before a Ma-
gistrate, they heard the aernsation against them; they
saw the witnesses, and knew how to be on their guard
against them; but there was no such advantage here.
The Noble Lord had observed, that the prosecuting
' party were not c ;wiled to confine themselves to those
witnesses. But he (Lori' II.) contended, that the most
important part of the evidence intended to be brought
forward against any person committed for trial by a
Magistrate, was known to anch person long before by
trial, so that he had every possible means to prepare fur
a defence. The Noble and Learned Lord on the Wool-
sack, who seemed to have made himself a champion be-
P.tween the Courts of Law and the Parliament, bad stated
that Parliament was not to be bound down by the roles
of the Courts. lie (Lord H.) fully agreed with him in
that doctrines and would maintain, that on that very
account their Lordships ought, in the present case, to
exercise a discretion of their own, according to the prin-
ciples of reason and justice, and not follow the rules
or precedents of any Law Courts. If their Lordships
resolved to proceed according to law, let the ac-
cused party have ill the advantages of law; but if
they meant to proceed according to the exercise of
their discretion, let them exercise it in an equitable
manlier without looking to what were the rules ob►
served in Courts of Law.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear I)
Ile wished that the Noble Lord had stated accurately
on what precedent it was that he acted. Let him point
out say ease that had ever occurred before, and
.say,
'bedsit, it bore any resemblance to the present': no—he
could not do so; and, of coorse,tifia was one anon which
discretion alone was to be exereiseil. In point of justice,
they were bound to grant what her Majesty new request-
ed ; they were also bound to do it in pelf( of policy: be
did not mean the policy of gratifying popular tlansour.
The Noble Lord had said, that the Iloase of Coatroom
would have a right to pro tare fresh witnesses; bat.
however extraordinary the power of he House of Com-
mons was. yet, when the case came befors Orieni, they
would know the witnesses and the genirrlT iomplexion
of the ease. Therefore, in point of policy, he wished
them to consider, for their own satisfactibn: and for
their character's sake, how differently thq ease would
come forward in the House of Commons; to there the
accused would have the advantage of knowintall the evi.
deuce on the second trial, which should creme on three.
Then tke House of Commons woaki have thWatlvantage
of r better and fairer case to try; and he bogged that
their Lordships would not, by concealing tbritames of
the winterise*, deprive themselves of a sinAtae selves-
tage, bet come to the trial of the ease frerifrolar all ob-
jections. As to Bills of PBl6O and Petah* he allays
considered them must anomalous proceedingir a 'NOM t
in such proceedings. the common forms of law de-
viated from ; that would not be the first s 1 is from
Isil
the principles of the Constitution which WAG likely M
take place. The proceeding was altogether theamverse of
what it ought to be; the exercise rif power ~ rintaeiNt
di nary and anomalous, and aboold be guided only by
the special elreumetancea of the case.
Lord Et LIN 1101Metill leateslie Tully agrarst that Bills
of Pains and Penalties were' exceptions to tllk general
practice of the law, bit stiff 'fiserhari their 'tales and
precedents to go by. The present was not an *withal-
OW pr seceding ; and the very deviations belonging to

kr 7,

Ue to grant
tty, which it was usual and
_ would greet no more. Ile
.would awl grant that whicialad nesar been grouted to,
anj one before except in cases of high treason ; and
indeed, he thought it would be impossible to select a
course ofisroceeding more Amoorable to herlilltsjsretr
than the 'present ; and 'be %bought on this occasi
the Parliament was actin in a manner the most
vourable to her, so far as was comistent with t
practice and spirit of the Constitution. But that
Lordships were not obliged to do more than was cuO•1
dude* to the ends of justice. He asked of what use'
would it be to her Majesty, who was calling for her'
trial at the end of 2-1 hours, to have a list of witnessed!,l
many of WllOlll were at present on the Continent? Het
knew of no end that could he answered by granting
such a list, except that of exciting popular claniour.--
(Hear D—were their Lordships aware of the errors that
tnlgkt occur in describing and giving the names of the
witnesses, and the advantage which might be taken of
misnomers by her Majesty's Counsel ? It would he
impossible to give the names of the witnesses whims.%
agitating the feelings of the public; and it would ba'
absolutely necessary to bring them to the Bar of that
House untouched and secure. After these witnesses,
should be heard at the Bar, and after their evidence
was recorded, than her Majesty's Counsel would be
allowed a satficient time to inquire into their charac-
ters, and to prepare fur her defence. Fur his own rarkl
he had no doubt as to the course of proceeding that
ought to be adopted in this case; and if he had any
doubt, he should recommend an adherence to the spirit
of the common law. But that House would never be
able to uphold its own dignity, or command respect,
if it departed from those principles which had always
regulated its conduct.—(Hear, hear
Lord Hou.axv felt it necessary to notice an exilic.•
siun which fell from the Noble Lord who spoke last,
He had said, that the object of the present demand
was to excite popular clamour. He was not quite cer-
tain whether the Noble Lord had alluded to him or to
his Noble Friend mar him. If he did, be (Lord Hol-
land) would nut condescend to vidicate himself against
such an imputation. But this he should feel it neces-
sary to say, that such language was most noparliamen-
tary ; and that he did not envy the Noble Lord the
charity of throwing out accusations of which he had no
knowledge.
Lord ELLastmeocon, in explanation, disclaimed
any imputation either on the Noble Lords or her Ma
jesty, in what hail fallen from him.
Lord HOLLAND expressed himself sati•fied with the
Noble Lord's explanation.
The Marquis of Built contended, that the Ileum
bought not to he governed by the proceedings of other
Courts ; particularly so, when the present case was of
a nature differetit from all those that could apply to au
subject of the realm. All that the House now granted
was, fully what could be considered as consistent wh
strict and severe justice. By the law of Scotland the
'Queen would be entitled to a list of witnesses; sad
why should their Lordships act partially accortharcei
those laws which were confined to England ? The No-
ble Marquis concluded by giving his assent to the.
motion.
Lord BILNAVEN said, he could not gi, aMs vote ow
this occasion without making a few observations. They
were about to pass a law, which would deprive her
Majesty of rights, which she would otherwise possess.
In such a case it was their Lordships' duty to afford her
every opportunity of conducting her defence. 'Her
Majesty asked no more than that which, according to
the laws of one part of the British dominions, was al-
lowed to every subject. and to which she was entitled.
Ile could not help expressing his surprise, at hearing
certain Noble Lords opposite, and who owed so much
to tlimpeople, raise their voices against what they called
" popular clamour;" to hear them exclaim, the people
mean to trample on us, to direct us, and so on. He
remembered the time, to use the words of the Poet,
" When Europe bowed beneath the yoke,
And Austria bind and Prussia broke,
And the/end Religion's purposetwave,
Was bartay'd by a timorous slave."
At such a period as this the Noble Lords, who now
decried popular feeling, called for and found their best
resource in the people. The Noble lord concluded
by stating, that be was determined to support the

- .
mono..
The Earl of Can't tavost said, he thought the Queen
was entitled to all the advantages which any one of
their Lordships would claim for himself under simgar
circumstances, and he saw no reason why la bee ease
that rule of impartial justice should be depatiad from,
which said, do as yua would be done by." It the DM
itself was sufficiently ridit nlous, which be wet peevieeed
it was, he was at a loss to end an epithet strong @sough
to brand with, the refusal to the Queen to see the names
of her accusers. What, in fact, was the charge against
her 1 A tissue of insinuations rather than accusations--
hints loosely throwstast, ai overt act whatever. Now,
theaa•ite Would divide late t /repasts, and then endeavour

..7._,..-N______4: ... • l
1
ants. The Noble M:4r inis had talked of a fist u Witt, It *sigh A
advantageous,
zesses being on the buck of an insliotsvent ;it might edifier to-311a defeadasa_
be st), but .., ,i co. :tat that there might be witnesses ever thing to her Majesty
to be aftern ard. ealirll on the trial. The mode in which I prop r to grant i 'bid be sv

anti Word boo riber thi
Ue alat. willing to grant I sit'
tam. .

. .
to ithowitra liouswthot lw sitter of them there was no-
thing whatever w afford a basis fur a grave proceed-
ing. In the ant, it was stated that the Queen had been
guilty .t 4in linbecoising intimacy" With a menialvervain. Were was Airbags 's this? Perhaps such
Pi§ss
CUI4I 7 _tot the 1. litpt ands society was no: the
most lather Si ..... 1101 could she choose better ?
Was ' " • on to make a selection, or
frog !at, . been side to exclude her
....
iratO a opts, Aug a c companions for the last
lalisrAlletwilL. . lag this to he tree, what
was 11l 0 f 'MK ' • 4 ground for the Hesse of
Lords to set sipois? justify • grave proceed.
jughy a body Idwitadaim ,in this ifistance, the highest
=
live. that of legislating and judging? Their
hips win not, could Dot be ignorant of what
ztlierlse fate of a pvtcling in a Coat or 11.1. t!, •
upon such a sup ture, without point. with-
out As gyrator t stated. w ottt possibility ofl tiring
nircir:, it.Twascouleqd Ze;vrepuill.— repugnant to law as ilit Le-
greotiore to common sense. Sat again it was said " her
ros4t had promoted this menial, and that by her later-
ferenue be had had honours heaped upon him." Where
was she One In this? If to raise from obseseity
wlsrithless beittp--if by making them the depositnetes
et Um parietals favours of Kip were a crime, fine
holPrabsteceigne of Europe I Was there never known
!tsels more unworthy his Sovereign's &slow, the.
he ilia not pause, be did lot call for a tapir. far
be eared tiled not to go far front home to be siswerod
in the affirmative. Well, but, after disposing of this
ant part of the charge, they came to the second, namely,