The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-07-18 00:00:00

,TESMA N.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Jinn 17.
r. Itatie-Dottle Doty Rill, rite Bowled Roods' Bill, tir
Isie a< slam Trade Bill, were read a second time and
ism to•assirraw.
Mr. Toomey. from the Tax Odlee.preseated an account rellb.
Sive to the Izede'option of tbe Land Tax, which was ordered #
on the table. •
The 'rush lisEnp notice Consolidation Rig. the Malt Dethill
_ _

THE

made the engine of oppression np to the period4A the
Revolution, when the Committee appointed by 'the 1
House of COMITIMIS (in which Committee lard So-
mers, then Mr. Otters, took a most active and tea-
.kus part) came to a Resolution, that the power of
information ought to be abolished altogether, which
Realdfitiout *it unanimously agreed to by the House.
wis aware that the informations thee more par-
. .

Relri Bill. :I"' Montle"' Bankrupt Bill, amdl ire - titularly alluded to were not Inforinatioes Ex-Officio,
dia Loan Bill, were read a third time and passed. I •
REDEIIDA LES Permanent Inualvent Debtors' 811 l but informations in the name of common infermers.
I,etdwas r•Jtl a third time and
.pasted ; his Lordship stating that he eThettet,itowever, *air, that this Species of Informa-
bas little hope of its ea its the other House this amiss g
h it did not ern mow, he intended to bring in the UMW Bill in
but Ilion had been found iso convenient to the Gorern-
the wit Swum. I merit, that the informition Ex-didio had fallen into
LOCAL TOKENS. !disuse, and bad become in a great degree obsolete.—
Tee Pawl of 1.1 VVRPOOL moved to dieeharxe 11w Order for
the Ceendtasent of the Loral Tokens' Bill, and -to Anew it for ' regu r- T late the Dower of information thus exercised,
and present' the grievances that resulted from its
Tarkiaise 7,l*.nr. % UDER DALE trusted he should be able to
Phew theietordslilps, when Ibis Bill came robe discussed, that 9
abuse to'jhe people an Act was passed in the third
Romeo. rr was More lately than this to create a confusion in the ' or mune year or William and Mary, enacting that
ernuttry. In the pastel state of the circulation of the country, 7 the informer should enter into recognizance as a se-
re pyres, she lone at local tokens, would be to destroy the
moll teary, that in may pans of die country was the ante ex- curity to the Defendant for the costs, provisions had
king medium fornalthignerillpaynsents. and he contended that I previously been enacted to prevent the informer from
eiteur4ice,line.terkiddiej weirdo bemiderairgwtrilthedepapft eiwrciVatuitua, aotrtre twit. prosecuting, or from compounding it. He trust-
s:outer., awl the ellkts predeced by it. eu he should not new be told by a Noble and Learn-
-Ihe *Bill was committed toe Tuesday. lad Lord, as he was 011 a former occasion, that the
I.4TE OVERTURE FROM FRANCE. Act passed soon after the Revolution, relative tp the
Lord 1101.14 AND wished to know from the information to which he had alluded, was obsolete.—
Noble Lord opposite, whether Ministers were in That Noble and Learned Lord could not now say so
possession of any (potter information relative to tlfe in justice to himself, that Act being still in opera-
_late Overture from Franm, than what had been pub- tion, and, constantly, he was barley to say, acted
lished in the Foreign Papers ? He was desirous of lupon by the Court of King's Bench. He was aware
abstaining from delivering any opinion respecting ithat this recognisance with respect to costs could not
the Answer to that Overture, alshoegh he was cer- be applied to ex-et tio Informations without the vio-
taiuiy not disposed to admit, much less to guarantee, laden of a well-known maxim of the law—a maxim,
the existence of King Joseph at the head •of the Go- that whatever opinions might be entertained respect-
vernment of Spain as a principle of negotiation. He big it, had been long acted upon, and certainly ought
should have approved, however, of entering into a not to be hastily violated, namely, that the Crown
negotiation upon the principle of rendering Spain in- pays ne costs, The Act, however, to wllth he had
alependeet of France. He, at the same time, with alluded, had left the question respecting ex-officio.
respect to the terms of the Answer which had been Inforrhatious where he found it, by the insertion of
published, could not but protest against the difficul- words which could not be construed to recognize the
ty which appeared to be felt in designating the Em- legality 'of that species of information. lf, there-
peror of France as Emperor. He wished to know fore, the ex-officio information was, as some eminent
whether it was intended to communicate any further lawyers had maintained, actually illegal, it could
information upon the subject to Parliament or the derive rio legality from that Act. What was
public ? the nature of the ex-officio Information ? it
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that the Letter was a power exercised by the Attoruey-Ge-
from the Frencit Government, and the Answer of neral of the Crown, at pleasure, of filing in In-
this Government, which had been published, were formation againit an judiridual, and placing, by his
(without tying himself to the critical exactness of single act, that individual its the same situation is if a
any particular expression) correct copies. The rea-' Grand Jury of twenty-three men had found a kill of
son why no communication had been made to Perlin- indictment against him. It must be at once admitted,
ment was, that the Answer of this Government called. that such a power was most liable to abuse, and
for explanation on the part of the Government of against its abuse, which might tend grievously to the
France, and, therefore, in the expectation of that oppression of the people, it was the duty of the Le-
explanation, the documents could not properly be gislatortto provide. He had obtained a list of the
made 'public. If, however, any motion was made number of Informations Ex-officio, which had been
for the production cf these documents,. he should filed in the course of a few years past, a proceeding,
stet interpose any obstacle. As to the terms of the it should be obserxed, that, with the exception of
Answer of this Government, he could not conceive revenue cases, was confined to libel, and he towl,
that there oould he any difference of opinion in that that whilst, front 1800 to 1807,the number filed was
House, or in the county that if welted consented fifteen, in the three - irs, from 1808 to 1810, the

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to acknowledge Joseph Bonaparte as the King of
Spaina.it would have been most ruinous to our dia.
racteehnd our cause; as to the other point alluded
to by the. Noble Lord, the Answer of this Govern-
anent had proceeded upon the principle acted upon
in all an'ecedent nrgociations with France since the
event alluded to happened, in not acknowledging
the Ruler of that Country as Emperor, it being a
fair and a just principle that such acknowledgments
*aght not to be made gratuitously, hut to be tho,
objects of a stipulation for a consideration and equi-
Talent.
The Farl of LAUDERDALE said, he did not
mean to express either approbation or disapproba.
Con of the Answer of this Government; he merely
wld,hed to l.now whether any communication had
been received from the French Government since the
Letter of L'rd Castlereagh, which had beets pub-

lished in the Newspapers.
The Earl •of LIVERPOOL said, that .subse-
quent to the Letter of Lord Castlereagh, publ:shed
in the Newspapers, uo communication whatever had
been received from the Frencu Government.
INFORM kTIONS.
On the Order of the Day being read for the se-
cond reading of the first Bill relative to Ex-officio
Inform:oi Milli
Lind HOLLAND observed, that after what he
had said upon this subject on a former occasion, and
considering the thinness of the House at the present
moment (although he admitted the season of the year
to be inauspicious for a full attendance), he should
not have been disposed to have said a word now '
upon the Inhject, had not what he formerly stated
!wen misunderstood and misrepresented, in qtrirters
i,erp he was auaious not to be misundehtood
or rni,l..presenteci ; and had not his object also,
iu erop..siec these Bills, been greatly misapprehen-
dot • smite persons amongst the public. Ex-officio
Ittorntatiolts and Libel had for some time past been
so much identified, that there were some persons
In the contitty so ignorant of law as to suppose them
inseparably conuected, and even to suppose that his
ohjeet was nothing less than to abolish the law of ,
libel altogether,, and thus expose the Government te
every attack that the utmost licence of intaginition
could invent, • Whatever might be his OWd specula.
tive or paiticular *pinions upon this subject, he was
not such an Utopian reformer as to call upon the
/louse to adopt a measure embodying those opinions.
Ilis object was the regulation of the power of Er.
officio Informatiens, in order to guard against the
abuse to which that power was liable, to the op-
pression of the people. The power of Itiformatiou
altogether was inconsistent with the spirit of our
Constitution, and was condemned at WO by infer-
ence, by our own laws, which expressly forbid an'y 1
other mode of proceeding in cases affecting life er
limb, than the ordinary, safe, and constitutional mode
of proceeding, by indictment, to be first found by the
majority of a timed Jury, namely, twelve, before
the Individuel accused could be pbt upon his trial:—
And it was kigbly worthy of remark, that whenever
the subject Iry to be oppressed, it was effected by
means of an oatensioaof the- power of informatioff.
Thus in the reign of henry Vllth, the grievances

endured by the people through this means were so
greet, that it was. (Mad necessary, in the first year
of Henry VI thit, to pass an Act for the express pur-
pose of regulating this power. Again, in the reign of
Elizaboth, and is the reigns of the first Princes of the
Nouse of Stuart., this power was resorted to, and was
the favOurittengine ef that most oppressive.o.-
Ow Star Chisther. This power coo,—

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years, ..
number filed was no less than forty-two, of which,
however, more than half had never been prosecuted
to trial. He did not meanato impute any other than
proper motives to Sir Vicary Gibbs, in no prose-
cuting these Informations to ,trial, but he must sly,
that it was a power of fining and punishing individuals
which ought not to exist without regulation. He
had several cases before him, but he would not nun
individuals,, his object being to abstain from mixing
personal considerations with the question; confining
himself entirely to the principle. One of the cases
was that of an individual, who, in three seceesiive
years, had had three successive Informations filed
against him on charges of libel, on one of which he
was acquitted on trial, and the other two had not
been brought to trial. The expences interred by
this individual, in consequence of theso Ex-officio
Informations, amounted to ‘l7Bl. l 8 s. I Id. Thus it

,ofirgiower, unlimited as it at present was, in the
Isi of the Attorney-General. With respect to Ire-
land he wished to be more cautious in what lie stated,
as he was not so well scquainted with the application
of thi law; in that country ai in this. He had heard,
however, a case, from report, in that Eountry, in
which a parson in prison for one libel had had an in-
formai* Sx.vjlicio filed against him for another li-
bel (for It was possible, and that was the law of this

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country, that a per.. might, be convicted.
of a false, scAndalous, and malicious libel, of witch
libel he had never area one word) and was convicted
without having had an opportunity of reading the
charge against him. The facts of the case were, as
understookthat whilst this person was in prison for
a libel, an Information Er-officio was filed against ,
him by the Attortlei-General for another libel. The
Defendant applied for;it copy of the charge, and was
referred to the Crown Office, where he was informed
that the charge of stamps, &c. would come to 15 or ,
WI., which he must pay, before they could grant him
the copy. He made an affidavit that be was not worth
the money ; but he was taken to have pleaded Net
Guilty, and upon the trial was found guilty. Upon
being brought up for judgment, he stated that he had ,
not seen the charge against him ; and the Court of
`King's Bench, after hearing the case argued, grantedj
a new trial; granting it, however, upon the ground
of his affidavit, that he was not possessed of the
money demanded of him for a copy of the tetarge : so 1
that if he had only been possessed of 3AI. he must
have paid 201. of it for a copy of the information.—
lle thought this most oppressive to the individual,
and he bad an intention of proposing a clause in the '
ICommittee on this Bill, to ensure a Defendant in
j such a situation a copy. of the ebarge against
him. &could not, however, but think the tixes
upon law proceedings, 'which swelled the amount of j
I these charges, as extremely oppressive, and .most
anxiously wished they could be done away. Ills Lord-
Iship then adverted to a recent cace in Ireland, and ex-
pressed hit woudev that such a person as Mr. Fitzpa-1
trick had been selected for an Er-officio information;
a person who had so recently received the thanks of a
large body of his countrymen, and at a moment too
like the present, when the Government professed to
be pursuing measures of conciliation. Neither did
the nature of the work justify the proceeding. It
was nothing more than a statement of those penal sta-
tutes
which affected the Catholic body of that court-
try. There was another circumstance connected with'
that business al;o, and one which he hardly knew
how to mention, it was so anomalous, and in some
respects so ridiculous : yet, when he considered it as
a precedent, and in reference to the evils it might
produce, it then assumed a different chrracter. The
Attorney-General of Ireland, now in the dignity of ,
filing Ex-officio Informations, and with all the pomp'
and circumstance of glorious law, sent a regular neat-
mons to the person against whom he was filing the in-f
formation, desiring him to attend at his, the Atter. ,

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ney-General's, own house. But what might be the
consequence of such a proceeeding ? Might not the
Attorney-General in such an interview, sift from
him all the grounds of his defence, and render that
which he had extorted) an instrument of injustice
against him ? Might not such be the case, he would
ask ? He did not mean to say it was the cue, but
he would ask, whether it was not possible ? Witk
regard.to the general subject of Ex-officio Infor-
mations, his opinion had long been made up. The-
Bill, however, which he now intended to introduce,
nasdone merely of regulation. It left all the pur-
poses for which these informations were instituted,
untouched. It did not in any way interfere with the
speedy prosecution of enormous offences ; but it
would have a tendency to counteract that principle
by which, at present, the terror of a criminal in-
formation, was kept hanging over a man's head.—

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hat
principle of de Constitution itself : t
withstanding thechmour that had br.en raised a, not.gain,t
them recently, they were, in fact, si part of the law
of the land. As to the alleged hardship, he thought
them more humane than any other. If the Attorney.
General filed an Information upon the aifiduit of
another, and the person accused was innocent t
he not indtt him for perjury ? Hut, if
a Grand Jury. who would tell hi. 'Fr

tha,
ment for perjury could be preferred with
lily or with equal probability of success
luding to the proceeding of the Attorney-Goner' is
Ireland, he would only say, that, had it been
ease, he would not have so acted not Ir2cau,, h,
thought it illegal, but because he would not rim,
subjected himsajf to misconitroction acid mise.„,cep.
tion. At the same time thele was nothing compot.
sory in such a citation. It Was, in fact, notIN
more than telling the person, I am about to file a
criminal information against you; if you chuse to
come and shew any cause why it should not be done
you may. That seemed to hire to be the amount of
the proceeding, yet, he repeated, he would not have
employed such a.course, merely from prudential mo.
tires, to escape just such insinuations as had actually
been thrown out on the present occasion.
Lord ERSKINE agreed with his Noble and Learn.
ed Friend in the way in which he had laid down the
law upon the present question, but sitting in that
House as a Peer of Parliament, as a lawyer, and as
a free subject of the realm, he must contend for it, that
neither in the letter nor spirit of the law,nor the consti.
tution, was there to be found any thingthat, for a mo.
ment, iustified the principle that had been implied,
of putting the office-4 Attorwey-Geneml on a foot.
lug with 'that of a Grand Jury.—[Hear, hear !)
The Constitution never meant to put them on a foot.
ing, because the liberty of the subject has, not in
them the same security.—[Hear, hear n —The one
comprehended in it the great principle of trial by hii
Peers, the other was the servant of the Crown, and
removable at the pleasure of the Crown. The corn.
parison, therefore, was against the latter.—[Hear!
hear!]—The Jadges not in general acting on the
powers given by the 46th of the King, was on the
part of the Judges, no doubt, the exercise of a most
laudable discretion; but then did ft follow that such
discretion should be left to all Judges ? Their not
acting implied, that they thought they had been en.
trusted with more power by that Act than ought to
have been deiolved upon them. But there was one
point peculiarly called foi their Lordships' mature
consideration—it was the difference between
and breaches of the peace--in all cases of breaol
of the pence there was- w _mere matter of fact in he
decided upon, but in cases if alleged libel, how much
matter was there that involved a various compication
of conflicting considerations which might, and hare
had, in sundry instances, produced doubts and dif.
ferences hi the breasts of the soundest law authori.
ties ?-41kar, hear rl—Why, than, in cask-, of In.

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formations Es-ojficio, should the Judges :lave
i•
power in such cases to hold to bail, where theltrong
probability was in favour of the presumptioa of
tha law of the land, that-held all parties 'ono..
cent• down to the period' of their conviction ?
He, however, should require of his' Noble Friend
(Lord Holland) to make one or two exceptions
to• this general rule, good as the general rule it.
self undonbtedly was ,• and he believed that it w•as
the intention of his Noble Friend to make an ex.
1 ception to this rule in cases where the parties accrsed
excited any strong grounds of suspicion of their in.
tention to abscond from the process. To argue from
the living characters of those who had filled the office
of Attorney-General, against the abuse of the au-
thority of that officer, wes,lo Ms opinion, not very
fair reasoning to advance before men acting in a legis.
'Ave capacity.—[llear, hear!}—When the, powers
_

appeared, teat the Attorney-General, without the The first clause enacted, that no information should of the Coroner were limited try- the 4th and sth of
int-rvention of a Grand Jury, without the interven- ' be filed by (cis Majesty's Attorney-General. within ; William and Mary, was it then attempted to be ar-
tion of any regular or, constitutional mode of pro- the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, gued that theexcellent and unexceptionable character
seeding, had the power oT amercing an individual to unless such information should be so feed, or exhi- iof the Coroner of that day ought to have had aky
the amount of nearly 3001. in the course of three j bited within a given time, the precise number of i weight in continuing an excessive power in the hands
years. Was not this a power that required some re- months to be specified in a future state of the Hill, of that officer? Certainly not—they legislate for re-
gulation to guard against the abuse of it? Ile had after the misdemeanouror offence done or committed. terity, with provident referenee to all possible con.
}formerly quoted Mr. Justice Blackstone upon this That was the purport o( the first clause; and the se- I tingencies—and therefore, with all his well-founded
subject, and he must again quote that Learned Judge, • coed clause enacted that if any information filed or and habitual reverence for the sanctity of those who
who, in stating the necessity for the existence of tics exhibited ereogicio, be not proceeded upon, and the had, during his time, presided in tee Courts of Law
power of Ex-officio Informations, observed, that it Defendant brought to trial within so many months,' —with all his personal respect and esteem for those
was necessary to meet adequately enormous misdee next after the day of such information, all further of them now living—with all his reverence for the me-
enamours, such as obstructing or affrighting the cove- proceedings upon the same information' shall, after teary of suck of them as were now dead—sti'l he
reign in the exercise of his functions, in which not a the expiration of that time, cease and determine, ex. i would say, as a Peer of Parliament—as a British PA-
moment's delay could be suffered in bringing the of- copt such trial shall upon cause shown, have been jest—never make a Judge AftatTßAßT—for the sake
fender to justice. Now those who supported this postponed by any rule or order of the Court of ofjustice itself do not—for they might rely apon iL,
power of Ex-officio Informations, must either deny King's Bola. Such were the contents of his Bill, that where a Judge might do What he pleased, puh':c
the authority of Mr. Justice Blackstone, or they.must and he did not think it necessary to otter upon any suspicion would not be stow ill sapping that cenfi-
Sccuse the Attorney-General of negligence, in not anticipation of objections that might be made to it. , dance in the sanctity of the judLial character wsich
bringing to trial the informations he had alluded to,or We understood his Lordship to say, towards the . gave such force and efficacy to the operation of the.
they must admit that the offences for which flies, in- close of his speech, that it was not his intention to laws themselves.—[Neu, hear', bear !]—As to the
,formatious Ex..officio were filed, were not error- press his other Bill (that for the repeal of part of i,great age of Informations Ex-office, he did not deny
mous misdemeanours, and, therefore, that the infor. the Indictment Act) at this late period of the Session: `lt, but if time was to hue been made, in all caseeof
mations were improperly filed.. He could not con- he should therefore postpone it till the next. • I projected improvement, a preliminarynnd insuperable
template the existence of such a power in the hands Lord ELLENBORGUGa began by lamenting.. obstacle, what, he would ask, tifiet.wpyld have been
of an. Officer of the Crown, without feeling that it that the Noble 'Lord, whose
,e,reet amitosis's and tileneilettltutlen of England at this day ?—[llear,
was pregnant widethe most dangeronsconaequeaces. , industry he adattiretsl, had Uot addressed himself to ; hew /3—Another great objection to the power of the
It MightsetielelsmosCleteteetevinlltience over the pub- those sources of information where he would have 1 Attorney-General, exerted in this war, was the vests-
lk press. &the present moment the Attorney-Ge- derived morecertain knowledge than he unfortunate- tious harassing that might be occasioned to the ac.
neral had the power, after filinvan information Ex- ly seemed to poises* open .the subject. He had cured in case any Attorney-General thought proper
officio, of keeping it hanging over the head of the ; stated the proceeding by Ex-officio Information was 'to defer from time to lime bringing him to trial, and
Defendant, without any limit of lime, and thus not a part of the regular lasi of the land; and he as the law now stood, this was quite at the discretion
possessed the unlimited power of keeping indieklnits, ;'-csnoted Mi. Justice Blackstone, to prove that it was ! of the Attorney-General. This was a, power he did
at his pleasure, iw a continual state of terror and employed only for enormous 'offences. He would, not wish to see lodged in the hands of one man, be
alarm. From the„general diffusion of knowledge, !beg leave to tell •
the Noble Lord, however, that that man who he may, his best and dearest friend, or
and the general cariosity to know the state of 'pub. 1 Judge Blackstone wrote• very ignorantly upon the i the best friend to the liberties of the country. The
lie affairs—a curiosity*, perhaps, sharpened by the I question of Xi-officio Informations. lie did net I present Bill would obviate this and other objections,
large sum which Ike people had to pay—there were say that with any intention to detract from the great and it should therefore here his support. -
at the present mow' uka great number of periodical merits which his Commentaries certainly possessed. Lord STANPOPE deticribed the Nobleand Learn
publications. It was, therefore, of great importance It was-a most leant work; and had done more ed Lord (Ellenborough) as most anxious to cry
to consider what,efilict might be prodeeed upon the . good to this country, by diffusing a sort of taste for ;all Attorneys-General, and to cry -down the Graft
puhlic press, by this power vested in the heads of , the study of law, than any other production.' Still, Juries of the country. He should net enquire wh'
the Attorney-GentstaL Ity not prosecutingen infer. however, he was to speak .to troth, and he would i had been the Attorneys-General wt. Ws time, by
oration, there might .be itacit understanding, under) say, relt in his belief, the Consioaltariet of Black-'this he knew, that the infansiaet 'stodge Jefferie
which the iistlitklon aglittst syhom it had been filed.: alone were not tile prixlacOmrof & learned man sit- had once been an Attorney-General, and so
might be moat'lM .c.,.peit,ineuenced in his opinions, ting down to the, sateect, fully epeepared--but that I had the 'notorious Judge Scroggs ; aid, recollect-
particularly If
~übst
isence degended
conduct Of a 'peeßnlical publication ; upon' the 1 the, subject, in the progress of writing, TIM& the' ing that, he could not approve of such Rowel
Or the abused man learned-- • the detractor of Black.; bell - held by the_ Attorney-General. The No-
pewee, have'
rout mmt

„might, . 'the eir of d__J. Ile was; .got t4Ot . _ -- -- i4l •
of such a ;:i -- --.
' e ming. Mae% uhe wished to 4, . considered rather -Ms i ble end Learned Lord had said UM' Mr. Jusllce
from the A ,of the- public prear- persons ot.sgmternl engolist, fet: he had made the study •of ,- Blackstone had written ignorantly .ow this subject:
conscience and 'illiegrityl who wind& *at hicrilica, the law, a pleasing Educe to him when he first shad be (Lord S.) made such an assertion, in what a
their opinions to temporary interest. It might 'be . begait Ms profeislikabl career. • The Noble and rage would not the Noble and Learned Lord have
said that the case Imbed allseled te of three successive . Learned Lied then went into a variety of legal de• risen to take him to task for suck ,a libel on the
I infosmatione tiled agelnsbehe same indOeduld ,tide tails, citin a g .' ti from the . highest 1 Bomb 1 • The Noble and Learned Lard had said
—*mart, against tkisarsuutewt,hut4thpateedaitetmakeugainst, law atidOrkiesf id i .. to slaw-that the primp that- Blackstone had commenced hh beht in 1v0,.0111101
,.0111101 tti. De the getterei ..pdticilliC 4.-deiger, whkli grew oat Om at Faith* ^ wab unsnap is the' IllaCe bit that he had become learaed before he
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