The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-03-14 00:00:00

battirititttiipeistion
With tilled to Scotl
thOre was, complete
tie was managed 1
General. In fact, the s
piareil it. In Ireland it en
Member, who had looked
-hat the Post-office expo
was of opinion, that batt
that country ought to be abolished, if they looked at t.
duty which was to be performed by them. But as no-
thing could be so desirable as to keep Gentlemen in Ire-
land, he would even make the sacrifice of one, although
both might be reduced with perfect safety to the
public service. He begged to observe that he had
brought forward this question as a measure of specific
economy. He did not at all wish to put it in the light
of affecting the iotluence of the Crown, and he should
therefore deliver no opinion upon that subject. When
it came before the House in a regular shape, he should
be quite prepared to deliver his sentiments upon it.
however, his motion was to be opposed upon the ground
of its lessening the influence of the Crown, he should
then say that the people had a just right to complain of
the manner in which their distress was considered. A
long war, and its consequent expenditure, had produced
an over-grown state of taxation, which gave the Crown
an increase of patronage and influence; and it was
most unjust to say that such circumstances were to be
turned against the people, as the necessary preservative
of the power of the Crown. Before he sat down, he was
anxious to call the attention of the House to the import-
ance of the decision to which they must come upon this
question. Not only upon its own merits as a measure
of practical economy was it importaner bbt considered
relatively to the decision' to which the House came few
nights ago when two useless offices were abolished.—
The present decision would prove whether Gentlemen
meant tbeir vote of the other night as a first dividend
of economy paid to their constituents, or whether it was
intended as a discharge in 11111 of all their demands.—
He rejoiced in the success of his Hun. Friend's motion
upon that occasion as much as any man; but if it in-
volved no principle—if it was meant by those who sup-
ported it as the definitive quantity of reduction which
they would support, and then use it as a proof that they
had redeemed their pledges of economy, he would rather
that his Honourable Friend had sat in solitnde on that
side of the House, and uttered his single "Aye," when
the question was put. He did not mean to say that
Honourable Members were bound by that vote to sup-
port every motion for reduction which was afterwards
to be submitted to them. lint if they considered the
two Postmasters-Oeneral to be no more necessary than
seven Lords of the Admiralty, they were bound to sup-
port him. And that was the ground on which he was
anxious to place the question. He did not see his Hon.
Friend the Member for Yorkshire in his place, bat lie
certainly hoped for his vote, Übe acted in conformity to
his former declaration, that he should support every
reduction which did not involve the safety of the State.
If his Hon. Friend, therefore did not consider that the
office was a necessary one to the public service, lie meet
vote for the motion. If be opposed it, it must be on
the ground that it was indispensible. Its trollied that
the House would see the question in the light in which
be had endeavoured to place it. If they rejected the
motion, they would be acting in defiance of the opinion
of the emirate, in derision of its sufferings, and in utter
oblivion of all the pledges of economy which th:T had
given. He concluded by moving the following reso-
lution :

" Th.t it is the opinion of this House, that without
detriment to the public service, the duties of the office
of Joint Postmoster.lienersi mat- be performed by one
. . •

individual. and tk salary of tite.other be thereby saved
to the puhlie."- •

• Mr. F. ROBINSON said that he did not consider
himself at liberty to follow the Noble Coro through the
details of his speech, but would meet the proposition
upon the plain broad principle to which the Noble
Lord referred—namely, whether the effect of this propo-
sition, if successful, would be to diminish the iretwoce
of the Crown. And he begged to remind the House
that it became him to take his stand upon this principle
at that inoincot, for the Noble Lord had asesod them
that the present was but one of a series of similar mo-
tions. If such a course was in the coutemplation of the
Noble Lord, then lie would say that the House were at
once challenged to decide upon this motion, whether or
not the influence of the Crown should be diminished. It
was easy indeed, when one said that he was ready to
vote for every safe reduction—it was easy to throw ri-
dicule on him, and charge him with inconsistency,when
a proposition was made to the House for a specific re•
auction. to which such a person did not think himself
justified in assenting. Bnt he trusted that the fear of
reproach or ridicule would not operate so far upon the
minds of Gentlemen as to induce them to overlook the
consequences of lending themselves to a measure which,
in appearance, had in view a trifling reduction, but, in
reality. embodied a principle which required of them to
pause. long before they decided upon it. He would then
repeat that the question before them must be debated,
not upnn the narrow consideration whether a reduction
of 2000/. a-year ought to be made, but upon the larger—
the more important, and more enlightened view, of its
being a measure calculated to infringe on the great in-
fluence of the Crown. And was the House prepared to
sty, at that moment, that the influence of the Crown
was too great? He for one would say that there was
no reason to believe that the influence of the Crown
required to be diminished. It was not necessary for
him to go over the Constitutional arguments which had
been front time to time urged, in order to prove the ne-
cessity of upholding the due influence of the Crown.
Itat that man took a very unjust view indeed of the in-
MIMICe of the Crown who did not take into account the
counteracting circumstances which were constantly pre-
sented against an undue influence of the Crown. Let
any one look at the moral state of the country, and he
would readily admit that there was a degree of comfier-
actinp force constantly in opposition to the working of
the influence of the Crown. When one considered the
vastly extending information of all classes in the coun-
try— when one considered that, within the last century,
the intelligence of the people increased to a degree be-
yond all anticipation—when one took this into view,
was lie prepared to say that there was not, in such
a state of things, an effectual impediment to
the improper exercise of the influence of the
Crown ? Was it possible for a public man of the present
day to do an act which might not become, or actually
would not become, the subject of universal canvass? On
account of this, lie would call happy the improved state
of the public nand, as a greater responsibility was an-
nexed to the situation of public men. An individual in
any of the principal public situations could scarcely walk
the street without meeting at every turn some person
fully informed about every part of his conduct. He was
far from regretting such a condition of the country.
He considered the circumstance as a great blessing,
because it had a great effect upon the conduct of put•
lic men. Hence the wonderful difference that might
be traced between, not only the conduct, but the motives
of men high in office now, and those of mss of a si-
milar rank in tunes when the facilities of information
and the intelligence of the public were awe limited.—
He would not hesitate to state, that there wasintioirely
less selfishness in their public career is the present day,
than there bad been at any former period.—Here then
• was a counteracting influence, operating against the in-
fluence of the crown ; and if the house were prepared
to state that the influence of the. Crow. was not kept ant
ficiently in check by the antagonist inflame, they might

but /Mr is thsT Nub* taird•
prop sitlob, Puffilll. tie
Hon. Membsee foe Shitstir-
to briar is a Bill to dip-
te from eitnag is the hssu
rested his measure upon this
-de of the house upon it. Um-
.aas prepared to deelan that the it
rows was too great, they swat oppose
this motion. lie knew very well that he and his /lon.
Friends near him would be charged with an indifference
to the interests of the country—that they were setting
their faces against every reduction which might be pro-
posed—and that, in order to retain their places, they
were ready to maintain an extravagant extent of expen-
diture. He was prepared to hear these reproaches, and
be should bear them with indifference. It was the duty
of those who filled the offices of Government to watch
with jealousy any proposition having for its object the
diminution of the due influence of the Crown I and
to maintain, as far as they could, the integrity of the
institutions of the country: and the Ministers who
bad not nerve enough to withstand the reproaches and
imputations cast upon them in their honest, though un-
popular adherence to wise and salutary principles,
were unworthy to administer the affairs of a great na-
tion.—(ilear, hear.)
Mr. H. GURNEY said, that so far as he understood
the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, be fully ad-
mitted that the second Post-Master was unnecessary.—
(Hear.)—At a moment when the Government was sedu-
lously employed in reducing the incomes of poor clerks
and other subordinate officers, it appeared to him that
the House would eternally disgrace itself with the coun-
try, if, under the poor ,pretence of maintaining the just
influence of the Crown (and which, so far from strength-1
ening, only weakened that induence),it were to continue
to give the sum of 2,5001. per annum to a great Lord, in
order to induce him to support the Administration of the
day.—(Hear )
A MEMBER from under the Gallery made a few ob-
servations, which could not be beard in the Gallery.

Sir J. SEIJRIGHT said that if he had consulted his
own private feelings on this occasion, he should give a
vote very different indeed from that which be felt it a
duty imposed on him to give. He had received malty
acts of kindness from one of the Noble personages now
before the house (the Marquess of Salisbury)—he bad
witnessed his kind and conciliatory conduct in the dis-
charge of his duty as Lord Lieutenant of the county
which he (Sir J. S.) had the honour to represent, and
knew him to be looked np to with admiration and respect
by all who knew anything of his lif.. Bat the motion be-
fore the house demanded from the Alrnihrts the forget-
fulness of all private considerations. and that theyshould
listen to the dictates of public duty only. He had heard
it stated by the Noble Lord who moved the proposition,
that a second Postmaster-General was unnecessary, and
he did not hear the reverse attempted to be proved, or
Nan asserted. The duties of the situation, he believed,
were.discharged entirely by Mr. Freeling, and every one
sequsiiited with the character of that tientleman, was
toady to bear testimony to his seal, ability,and efficiency.
Under these circumstances he considered it his duty to
support the motion.
Mr. H. SUMNER considered that the populace had
been misled at County Meetings, by a cry of "retrench-
ment," which would lead to any thing bust their sub-
ofantial relief. He did not know whether these offices
wen necessary in point of duty or not, but he should op-
peas the motion because he thought that instead a She
power of the Crown being too great, It was the pi=
influence which bad increased beyond its proper
Sir J. YORKE said, that after the vote which Ise bud
given the other night, be wished to explain that whisk
he stionlil give upon the present occasion. He emir-
stood the office in question to be opposed upon the
ground of its being useless, and defended upon that of
its being material to the indoence of the Crown. He bag
always been taught to believe that the power of the
Crown amongst a loyal and a freecri. did net want**
se be bolstered up by a ball dosed lama. If both
of these Postmasters-General were wanted, it

aPPared
that they were not both on duty at once, and therefore
as they took watch and watch about, they ought to di-
vide one salary between them. He should support the
motion of the Noble Lord.
Mr. DENISON understood the observations of his
Hon. Colleague, with regard to the cry of "retrench.
meat," to be applied to him. He begged to state that
he should always be an advocate for retrenchment the
most unsparing. In reply to the doctrines of the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite, he wield say that the power
of the Crown had increased and would increase.
Mr. FR EEMANTLE was decidedly hostile to the pro-
position of the Noble Lord. He conceived that he should
be deficient in his duty if he did not state his objections
to the manner in which the question .bad been brought
forward. The Noble Lord had put the question epos
the ground of saving 2,5001. a-year. Now if this had
been the whole ease, and the contemplated saving had
been 23!., no man would have been more willing than he
to support it. Bat the question ought not to be put in
this narrow point of view. They ought to look to its
general effect upon the country, and to remember that it
went to destroy the most ancient institutions which had
°prated so much good to the people. If they went from
one department to another and said " bete is an office
well conducted, but it will be as well managed by a
clerk," they would go on until they bad destroyed all
the ancient institutions of the country. Upon the ques-
tion of Crown influence, be was convinced that so far
from its being increased, it had been considerably lessen.
ed of late years. Upon these grounds he should vote
against the motion of the Noble Lord.
Mr. S. WORTLEY should not have addressed the
House but that he understood lie had been alluded to in
his absence by his Noble Friend the Mover of the Re.
solution. His mind had been occupied by this question,
to which he had paid serious attention. lie did not
mean to say, nor could any one pretend to say, that this
office was necessary to the safety of the State. But the
question was, where did Gentlemen opposite mean to
lead them? A week had scarcely elapsed, since two
places which were under the influence of the Crown,
were severed from it. Taillight another WA!. proposed,
and to-morrow a whole Board was to be brought before
the House. There most be a point at which they must
stop, and if the country were not prepared to say that
the Government ought to become more of a republic,
they could net expect these things to be granted. If
Gentlemen were disposed to stop here, lie should not
Wed this office. Bat if this were to be led on to other
offices in the same manner, be would not vote tur the
present motion. He held it to be necessary for the
safety of the country to allow • sufficient influence in
the Crown; and so long as he had a seat in Parliament,
he trusted his constituents would not expect him to act
otherwise than his sense of duty prompted. He aster
would consent to beat down the power of the Crown.—
If it was told to his constituents. and misrepresented, as
what he had said bad been before now, he should say,
that be came there with the intention of doing his duty
honestly and conscientiously ; but if they wanted him
to come there to pull down the power of the King. they
must pet some other person, for he would never cement
to do it.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BANKES understood it to be contended that of-
fices, however expensive and useless to the country. were
to be kept up to support the indurate, of the Crown.—
(Hear, heer.)— He had always heard, from the first au-
thority in that House, that the influence of the Crown
was confined to the necessary offices of the State.—
(Hear, hear, bear.)—These were the legitimate sources

364PagnaAar "rageallid
the cal
ilheyligi.siiireasead.iltpteasill"r 2emliegdmirieebtel:thh;rinnerthhil
=11664 badu
been.Crw 8 Bate aw►le esl r
them useless, thee only it was that they should inter
fin with them to abolish them. The Noble Lord had
diluted to two Rills which be bad the honour to pro.
peat, sad the Right l'ari. Oesdeman be believed 0
have seppertadtken, he 'write sew Ilea thrifoto
Cientlemaa on the seemed bench (Mr. Presseematle)(d.
and he thought his Right Hon. Friend did elm. ft wait '
Itemll4l7 ID Plod fortPt9 arttotillth illts,tad whe
ever In differed from ham it leas with veer peat Oeian.
He bad the highest opinion of bit taftptsaffil*;,4.
and be would sot say more in We press**. He thins-1,1
the Noble Lord bad jest gone far;iozrolitith his . reee.
latices, and sot too far. He had as far as he
(Mr. B.) went in 1812, and. there wes....l=±lfference in
the armament:es of the two stub it.
dues the House to change its dethielors i regard to
the argument of sot kaewiwebow to• slop. he saw no.
thing in this Rsosbeiewsehiab pledraloir Hen. Mem-
ber to any ulterior ammo Ndr. 'Redactions of
other offices might be pereel, sad setae of which he
should support, whilst others be would oppose. He
should feel himsel fat perfect Ilhetty to exercise his men
discretion upon every individual ease which cams Watt
the House. He had not heard one word advanced Is
support of this office upon t round of its utility. He
perfectly agreed with the Nile lord in viewing dee
T
question as one of just eco y, and not as attemptine
to pull down a long constititad office to lessee the in-
dunce of the Crown. It was only acting ups* the
principle of reducing every thing as for as was safe awl
just to the country, which they had pledged themselves
to do in the address which he bed the hewer to mows
in 1821. He thought Ministers were not redeeming
that pledge by opposing the motion of an Hon. Befoul
the other night. If he was to take that as a *petition
of their economy be should be exceedingly disappoidted.
He supported the motion because not one word had been
said in defence of the office upon the ground of Rene-
cessity. Neither was it, as had been represented, se of-
fice of such ancient standing. It was not equal to anti-
quity and importance to many of the offices which they
bad abolished is the Exchequer and elsewhere. It bad
not been dignified by great names io remote period's"(
history, nor had its possessors the power of turning it
to the advantage of the country. He trusted the House
would go along with him in sow porting the motion of
the Noble Lord.
Mr. PEEL said, the Noble Lord had called epee tie
boom to decide the present question. on the waked me-
rits of the case; and had been followed by hie (Mr.P.'el
Right Hon. Friend, who had argued it upon priseiple ;
though his Right Hon. Friend by no means conceded to
the Noble Lord the argnineut that the office in condos
was useless. He hoped be should be considered asdis
coming the question fairly if he addressed himself to
both its elements ; inquiring, first, whether the ogre
was useful; and. secondly, whether, independent of its
usefulness, it was necessary for the preservation of the
just int, aeon of the Crown. In looking at the first of
these breaches of the argument, it became necessary to
ascertain when the office was founded, though be admit-
ted that antiquity alone was not a conclusive arguseet
for its continuance. The year 92, was a constant date
among Hon. lientlemes opposite, arid to a degree which
would lead one to believe that they considered it the
standard date of financial perfection. He wend refer
the house to the yeas /2; but it was in 1692, that he
found the office was first hestitesed,oed be fogad dittos
its first institution it was held by two post-masterogest-
ral. The next question was, wheoher the duties had in-
creased or diminished s: nee its smulaweenneut. In those
duties there had been a gradual increase: and they bad
become quintupled since the commencement of the last
reign. This might be inferred from the revenoe, which
in 1764 was 400,0001. ; in 1793, 600,00 W.; in 1;95, to
700,0001. ; and in 1815, two millions. With every de-
ference, therefore, for the opinion Obis Hon. Friend, the
Member for Code Castle, he thertht it was rather too
much to call this au inefficient office. Even in the docu-
ments of the house, in which it bad been mentioned, mo-
dification rather than reduction had been suggested.—
The Committee of 1797 had bete justly complimented
for its labours, and its authority had been trenerally ad-
mitted ; but that Committee merely awe! that it usiolo
be worthy of consideration whether a Board of Conine-
sioners would not ensure attentioa to the duties of the
*am in whit* there was much depending on skilful
usanagoineat. . Thameditication wpald, if adopted, have
increased. rather than dinsinisk the influence of the
Crown, for a patronage over five sloes of 10001. a-year
each, was more desirable for the of intent e.
than a patronage over two offices olligra-yeor each.—
It appeared that the Hon. Gentleman opposite would
wish the minor patronage of this office to he transferred
to the Treasnry.—(Hear, hear, from tbe Opposition.)—
He really had no wish to misrepresent any argument,
but he certainly considered that it was proposed the
office should remain under the entire patronage of Mr.
Freeling, or be transferred to the Treasury. The mole
in which the duties of the office were at the present p-
rint' discharged, gave, he believed, general satairti,s;
and no one had suggested that any improvement in that
mode was even possible. Referring to the Report of
the Committee of 1817, he certainly was not preparel
to say that all these duties should be imposed upon one
person ; duties which produced a revenue of two mil-
lions, and required a vigilant attention to a consider-big
expenditure. The opinion of Mr. Fretting hi a sell; oP°°
his examination, was in favour of the two Lords. He
(Mr. P.) could not admit the justice of the inference
drawn from the evidence of Lord Chesterfield ; for all
that it amounted to was, that the junior, urn a &ler-
ence of opinion, conceded to the senior—an arrangers, it
adopted in all well-managed offices. The salary of the
office was fixed by Act of Parliament in 17e5, at a tittle
when every attention was paid to easores of econon% •
Mr. Burke, at that time, proposed o alteration of the
office • for his objections were print- ally to the other,,i
Third Secretary of State and the Bo dof Trade. CO.
sidering all these circumstances, be dame to a conclusion
different from his lion. Friend, aryl could set adult
that the office was either useless or ilefficient. Ileolo'4.
offered these observations on the ti t part of the aoh
ject, he came to the other with con •derahle diffilette ...
It was not easy to define what was t e just ioiseace 0:
the Crown. If he found an of . sting at the Itei.,,-.
lotion, that office constituting a part the inguence , t
the Crown, he only wished to main in it now in die
1,..
same just sense, and to the same eat The doctrine!,
that were held on this subject, and on nasty ethers. w!t.'
regard to Government, surprised him. lie had beartitt
argued by an lion. Member, that bee use he had foto I
occasion to dischar,/e 4 of his clerks in his business, that
all the public departments should be reduced in the nine
proportion. There was no analog s between the case:.
•
and such an argument did not call fur 5 serums refa.n.,t
tion. He had also heard doctrines, that no provie
should he made for torn oho consumed the greater pot
of their lives in the the service of the State. It was
said that they should be considered as a mere corporation.
who ought 'from their own resources, or from ;he Sc
ings of their salaries, provide adequately for their fumy'.
wants. He had heard it argued, that the ditties of ti
State should he performed bv men to slim e auto, Lb
office would be a sufficient reward ; or by noes 01 °ea" .
to whom a pecuniary rerotopence would be 1 l"liffet ;ill,
Bet such principles were altogether inroad de* ~....
those familiar to the nature of our Conuitutioa —to i'l'',,
also laid down by Burke who bad said, and el
an:lnpa.foiudneed
"wiiLloofm
a,
ntrhart theson S...;<tateitsellorld4otepell ieqdreiltririi,

THE.
Won to thosibraneisies eft* depavttOdel c. 6110444 tblrtrotion of the Ni
Scotland. le tindeiwtood that we delre'llerst tilost itaspeld hate been I
splete Amore; for the collection of the at Mica to mime down with a
waged under the Eaglis'h PosvMasters- question to anion,. When the
ict, the Act of the 9tli of Anne bad so bury, last Session, proposed I
stand it was Impossible but that eyery,lon. qualify Perms. bohllog axes
lad looked at the accounts, mast perceive that Hon. Member candidly rot
office expeoses were nearly double. We principle. and took the sense of
that both the Post-masters General in less then the house was papas
refit to be abolished, if they looked at the flueoee of the !?own was too