The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-02-21 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN,

lab, and had ao foundation. It was not only free from,
those Imaginary dangers, but it was strictly cooformalsle
with precedent—(hear.) Yes, there was a precedent tem
act!), in point—so much In point, that the Right Hon. i
rGentlensan had set ventrared—bed not dared to allude to
I it. Yes, there was a precedent, that in order to frame •
motion for the reform of any part of the representatios,
it was necessary to know the number of the electors. He
alluded to the return of the Scottish freeholders, which
had been granted at the request of Lord Archibald Ha-
milton. Before any plan could be prepared for the
carrying of the measure proposed by his Noble Friend
—before the ground could be cleared for the opening of
it, was it not 'treasury to know the numbers of the elector. ?
Was it not necessary to know the changes which had
taken place? Wes it not necessary to examine the Dow'
towns? Was it not necessary to compare the small towns
which had many representatives, with the large ease
which had none? Would any one presume to say that
such information would be of no use? The Nettie Lord
thought, and he agreed with him in thinking, that itF
would have a very considerable effect, although they cer-
tainly were not prepared to believe that it would make1
the house with one mount vote fur the question of Re
form. The Right Honourable Gentleman had thus im-
pressed his fears, and the proof would no doubt be gives
on the 11th of March. That day would pat the ripens.'
of the house for receiving of questions of Reform to the
proper test. He would now advert to that other objection
which he considered as an exaggeration. The boo. gen-
tleman had described the Committee as Wit bad been to
sit in judgment upon the charters of all the boroughs to
collect them, and not satisfied with their own prying,
should employ others is the labour of picking boles.
Nat the fact was, that there would be no each Wag. it
was easy to show how the information song boobtain-
ed without any of that prying, picking of Wee, or die-
dosing of bidden patronage. which had seemed on ter-
rible to the Right Hon. Gentleman. There are in every
town returning officers, of whom the information pan be
obtained. The motion therefore could do no harm to
the charters. The rights of the boroughs, tlhsir privi-
leges, however private, and however frail, could not be
in the least injured; and to say that they would was an
exaggeration without the slightest foundation in reason.
—'lo flame that the demands upon the Returning
Officer could not be answered, was to betray ignorance
of the case. Even where the Boroughs were the most
numerous, there could be small difficulty in ascertaining
the number of the electors. Take Cornwall fur ins'ance,
the numbers in each borough might he from lb to 120.
In Liverpool, the persons who were the Right Honour.
able Gentleman's own electors, could, though more
numerous, be easily ascertained. They were the freemen,
and in every case where the freemen were the electors,
there could he no difficulty (hear!). The only instances
in which difficulty could of cur, would be in some of the
large potwdllopiag Boroughs; and there the greatest
number that had voted at any one election could be as-
certained, and would be sufficient. There was not,
therefore, even a shadow of doubt as to the obtaining
of the information, nor was there the least appear-
ance of danger to the Boroughs. The whole objections
were therefore either mere chimeras or violent exag-
rgerations (cheers). The Right lion. Gentleman's o b-
lections lied no foundation in reason (cheers) The
question was a plain one, and the answer might be the
same; but the answer of Right bun. Gent. was one
of the most inapplicable, and the most extraordinary
that had ever been offered. Ater all it was a matter of
small moment, whether the motion of his Noble Friend
was granted or refused. Good would result from the
agitation of the question; and by having obtained the
sentiments of Ministers upon it, his Noble Friend would
have attained his object. More good would indeed be
done by the refusal than by the compliance. The
reason of the refusal would be so plain; (hear,) would
lie so much on the surface, that no man in the country
could mistake it. They would look at the proposition
and at the result. and they would put this plain quer
tion" What could indoor the House of Comesees to
refuse such a request?" What, but that the Hoye was
afraid to make even owe concession to the advocates of
Parliamentary
.Reform ? Afraid to sanction the gTant-
ing of a Committee who might find out how very defect-
ive and bow very rotten the Representation of the bo.
roughs was.—There was, as the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had said, a pre-disposition to this question; but
it would not, he was afraid. bare the effect upon the
House, which the Right Honourable Gentleman had so
much dreaded. It would. however, be seen, bow these
fears of the Right Honourable Gentleman would be met
when the question itself came to be discussed ; and the
objections which had been made to the present question
would but too well show the teepee with which the other
would be met. But, it the exertiens of his Noble Friend
were lost upon the Ministers, they would not be lost
9on the public. [The Honourable and Learned Gen-
.man sat down amid deafening cheers; and when
these had subsided],
Mr. PEEL rose. He thought that none of the objec-
tions of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Secretary
Canning) hail been removed. The Honourable and
Learned Gentlemen (Mr. Abercromhy) had said that
these objections were visionary, inapplicable, and foen,"ed
on exaggeration; but this be (Mr. Peel) denied. The
Honourable and Learned Gentleman had begun by throw-
ing aside the general objection to the motion. and say-
ing that the Noble Lord (J. Russell) was the best judge
of what information was best for his purpose; but would
any one say that information which was to be afforded
by that house, should be framed to answer the private
purposes of any Member? If the object of the Noble
Lord were obtained, it might be productive of the must
shious consequences. Time objeet was to expose the
charters and management of the boroughs; and if the
Noble Lord meant In his plan it Reform to retain the
whole or a part of these. he would ask if the exposure
was prudent ?—(Laughter from all parts of the house.)
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman hell denied that
any part of the Noble Mover's object was to expose the
charters of the towns; but then be would ask why the
information could not in that case have been procured
without the intervention of a Committee? But did be
not follow this up by a power in the Committee to or-
der and examine persons, papers, and rewards, and would
not the charters be comprehended among these? How
was it possible to limit a question which was in its own
nature so sweeping? Why, under a Committee pos-
sessing such ample powers, might not the charters be
produced and exposed ? The charters of 'private per-
sons were exposed only in cases of litigation, and
those of the Boroughs should be so only in cases of
disputed election. Boroughs
Honourable and Learned Gent.
had said that there was a precedent—in the case of the
Scottish County representrtion ; but in that there was
no difficulty, and nothing to disclose. The whole of the
voters were enrolled in the liat of freeholders; and the
information which had been obtained with regard to
them, and also the Boroughs and Counties in Ireland,
was not °Maned through the medium of a Committee.
In the appoinment of this Committee, therefore, there
must be some ulterior object—some other end in view.
If this were not the case. why bad the Noble Lord, who
for many years had advocated this question of Reform,
never thought of the Committee till the present Session?
The house ought to pause and consider that the granting
of this motion would prejudice the q4estion of Perlis-
inentary Keform. When that question came to be dis-
cussed he was anxious to meet it fairly; but he was un-
willing th at it should be carried by a side wind, as would
he the case. were the present motion to be agreed to.—
If carried, the country would consider that the house
was committed, and for that, as well as the other reasons
to which be bad adverted, he would oppose it. Had it

been merely the information tbat bid been required, be
would not have objected to it, but he would aortae the
Committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL begged leave to say, that if the
Gentlemen opposite would agree to afford the Returns for
which he had moved, he would give op the Committee.—
(He sr, hear.)
Mr. PEEL could not pledge himself as to the opinlmm
he would give upon any motion which was not before the
house ; but he would meet it on its own merits when it
was brought forward.
Mr. CItEEVEY referred to the observations which he
had felt it his duty to make on a former evening relative
to the great increase of oar population, which had grown
from six to ten millions, while a correspondent decrease
had taken place in the number of those who possessed
the elective franchise in boroughs. Ile had stiewn that
the 1,900 borough voters of Cornwal returned a propor-
tion of Members to that house equal to one half of the
County Members, and to the utter exclusion of all those
great towns which had so considerably advanced in num-
bers, rty, and intelligence. He knew of no way by
whale. house could obtain an accurate list of the
electors in towns and corporations other than that pointed
out in the motion of his Noble Friend. Yet the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning)opposed it, declaring at
the same time that he was ready to admit that every lim t-
*lion of the elective franchise, to obtain an amnesia
and official statement of which *as the sole intention of
his Noble Friend—(hear). That was the first time that
a Minister held such language ie answer to a Parliament-
ary demand. "I admit what you ask," said the Right
Hon. " and therefore 1 oppose your propoaition—
(hear, hear.) Would such an answer be justified on arty
ether question with which that house exercised a el=
Would the admission of the Minister be consi
sufficient to supersede any other official return which
the public interests required to bave accurately made?
Of that nature was the return now sought. On a
former night he had adverted to the capricious manner
in which the Elective Franchise bad been conferred by
many of our former Monarchs. From the reign of Henry
the Bth to the 2ed of James inclusive, 198 Members had
been added to the representation in the House of Com-
mons. Was it then unreasonable, now that an accurate
return had been made of the population of the country,
that Parliament also should require merely the dates of
Charters, and the number of Electors in towns and cor-
porations. There was also another reason which be
wished to impress upon the attention of the Members
of that house. He was anxious for that attention, be.
cause he hollered many very able men were not aware of
the law us it long, indeed until a very recent period, ex.
isted, with respect to the Elective rights of Boroughs.
By the Acts of theist of Henry the sth, which Act was
itself but a repetition of the Common Law, no Burgesses
were entitled to vote for Members of Parliament but those
who were resident. So the law continue without inter-
ruption until the 13th year of the reign of Elizaketh, when
a Bill was brought Into that house, respecting Non-
resident Burgesses. He held in his hand a speech model§
that house, and which was a record in opposition to that
new species of legislation. He should read it, as being
most applicable to the question :
" I run wholly with the pretence of the Bill, that
boroughs decayed may he eased or relieved, knowing the
same hotionratile for the realm, and in many respects
profitable and commodious to those who do inhabit the
countries adjacent to such decayed towns, that it is so 1
will not stand to disuade. how far this law may help
them, I know not. To open my meaning shortly, the
question is, what sort of men are to come to this court
and public consultation in Parliament, whether from
every quarter, country and town, there should come (as
II might say) home-dwellers or otherwise men chosen by
direetions, it forcetb not whom ? 1 am surely of mini,
that neither for the good service of bee Majesty, safety
of our country. or standing with the liberty, which, of
right, we may challenge (being born subjects within the
realm), this scope is to be given, or such looseness I.
choice to be permitted—that they should be the very in-
habitants of the several countries of this kingdom, who
should be here in times certain employe I, doubtless it
was.the true meaning of ancient Kings and other fore.
fathers, who first began and established this Court.—
The old precedent of Parliament writs do teach wt. that
of every conetry their own burgesses should be
elected. The statute in the first Henry V., for the
confirmation of the old Taos was therefore made,
and not to create a new unknown law. I mean this
wholly to no other end ; but since we deal universally
for all sorts and all places—that there he here of all sorts
and all countries, and not (seeing you list so to term it)
thus to ease them of towns and boroughs, that they may
Ouse at liberty whom they Us.. Mischiefs and inconve-
niences, there, msy crow by this liberty, but a mischief
it may be to me ant inconvenience also to utter the same.
I will not speak thereof, but dutifully; neither do I see
any thing that is amiss at this present. What was done a
hundred years since; I may safely tell, and thus it was.
A duke of the trains wrote his letters to a city which I
know to this effect; whereby he did signify that a Par-
liament was to be summoned in a short time, and that, for
great causes, lie was to crave aid of all his friends, and
reckoning them amongst the rest, he wished them, of
four under notnina.ed, to choose two. The letter, under

AN'.

the Duke's seal, is still preserved ; but hear you the an-
swer. lie was written to with due humbleness, that they
were prohibited h' law, they might choose none of them.
1 will venture a little nearer. In Qneen Diary's lime, a
Council of this reahu (not the Queen's Privy Council) did
write to a town, to choo-e a Bishop's brother, (and a
great Bishop's bro her it was indeed), (a laugh) whom
they-assured to be a great Catholic min, and welled them
to cltuose the like of him, some other fit man. The Conn-

cil answered with law. And if all towns in EnglAnd
had done the like in their choice, tie Crown Fut I not been
so wronged, hue the re.slut so robbed, with such rase at
that Parliament, and truth nanishedasit wag. What

bath been may be; there is no impossibility. It hill be
said I mistake ; it is not meant but that ton us sh .0 beat
liberty to choose whom they list. 1 say that liberty is
the loss of liberty ; f r when by lair they may do n hat
they will, they may n.,t will deny what shall be respired.
It is toe truly said, rogando cogit qei rogat potcntior.
Surely law is the only fortress of the inferior sort of peo-
ple, and contrary to the law the greater sort will not de-
sire to expect any thing."
Whether it was the effect of that speech or not, be
found from the Journals of that house, that the Act of
Henry sth continued in force— the Bill introduced in
the 13th year of Elizabeth not having proceeded far-
ther than the commitment. It continued in force until
as late a period at the 1-Ith of George the 31. The Par-
liament of that day, by their repeal of the old law,
which limited the right of voting in ton ns and corpora-
tions to resident burgesses, actually broirght the elecive
franchisors, of th- people of England into the market
[hear, hear !]. There was now oar longer felt any of
that delicacy which heretofore existed in that notorious
traffic [hear, head]. Peers of the tealtu no }olive re-
otricti d themselves to communications by letter to mak-
ing their purchases of freemen. They. made visits [hear,]
inspected narrowly into all the particulars of the pur-
chase, and took as legal possession of their new proper.
ty as they would of their estatee or their cattle [hear,
hear!] The respectable and philosophical Memoer [a
laugh] for Bodmin (Mr. D. Gilbert) could bear testimony
as to the truth of these st.ttements ; indeed frem his
manner the philosophical Member seemed to assent to it ;
and therefore he believed that which was communicated
in the public papers, as to such recent transfers in Corn-
wall, to be undeniable [hear, hear !]. Indeed, there was
no concealment—Peers and purchasers now-a-days did
Dot blink the subject. The common language of the

.

day was—" Well, wtrat's in the wark?t—what neolNik-
vestment hard spat made of freemen-'in what •dbunty,
and at what price [hear, hear, hear!]?" All these ins*.
rations—all these wounds on the purity of election,
were to be attributed to the repeal in the late teign I
the old common and statute law. Was it, then, so
opportune time, when our population had so increased
—whin so many important and intelligent towns bad
grown up wholly excluded from elective rights, to ask
for a Return by which Parliament might obtain an ac-
curate account of those who were the universal venders
of the English franchises [hear, bear, hear !)
Lord MILTON said he rose merely for the purpose of
ascertaining on what grounds the motion of his Noble
Friend was to be resisted. it was difficult to reconcile
the objections of the Right Honourable Member for Har-
wich (Mr. I.:musing) with the objections of the Right
Honourable Member for the University of Oxford (Mr.
Peel). The first defended his opposition on the broad
ground that such things were as they should be. The
other Right Honourable Gentleman resisted; by asking
was it prudent to expose the defective state of represent.
ation in Boroughs? What he (Lord Milton) wished
was, that they who voted on the motion would ask them-
selves whether they grounded their dissent on the broad
ground of the Right Honourable Secretary (Mr. Can.
ning), or on the expressed apprehensions, as to impru-
dence, of the Right Honourable Member fur the Univer-
sity of Oxford?—(Hear, hear) The Right Honourable
Member for Harwich was willing to give further inform-
ation if be could devise the means; the Right Honour.
able Member for the University of Oxford's opposition
was not to the manner, but to the information.—(Hear,
bear, hear!) According to him, you might do the same
thing in Scotland as to the Boroughs in Scotland. as in
England to the Freeholders, hut in England it would be
impradence. It appeared to him (Lord Milton) that the
motion of his Noble Friend was detective, inasmuch as it
limited itself to electors and population, without includ-
ing that on which all admitted representation to be
founded—he meant the direct taxation paid by the towns
and Corporations.
Mr. PEEL, in explanation, said that he bad only taken
up, on his own abetting, the argument of the Noble
Mover, and that as he bad declared the intention of re-
serving in his view of Reform some of the Boroughs, it
would be imprudent to expose say deficiency in their
constitution.
House then divided on Lord John Russell's mo-
tion:—

Ayes
Noes . . 121—Majority 38.
Mr. W. SMITH troved that there be laid before the
house a return of the Atnoqiit from Januery 1821 to
1822, of the Duties on Soft and H erd Soap, together with
the Amount of Drawback on the Ezportstion. The Hun.
Member observed that his object was to give a romps.
ratite view of the amount when the Mass were totter.
—Adjourned,

MAILS.
BUR. i ♦RR.

Dtt.

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1.... Dublin _
0 I --6: Motions:l 1
I—. Waterford.— .1 0.... Ifs m bro ti
I ... .0 & Jrney....o I I .... France 0
0.... Lisboa 1 o....Flantirrs ....... I
o....Gottenhorg 2 0. —Malta .l

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ante Sbtateontatt.

FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 21, isn
PARLIAMENTARY COMMENTARY. COMMENTARY.

IN VIE -Lomus.—The Marquess of LANSDOWNZ gave
notice that he should, on Monday next, put some pea-
tione to the Ministers relative to our Foreign Affair:,
and that, upon the answers would depend, whether or
not he should give notice of a motion.
_

IN THE COMMONS.—AORICELTURAL DIETHESS.—Lord
CHARLES Marmans presented a petition of this sort from
some worthy persons in Cambridgeshire, who prayed
for relief, who were " satisfied with the manner in
" which the House of Commons is formed," and who
" threw themselves on the mercy of the House !"—May
they receive such " mercy" as Peers Bill is calculated
to give them! May they experience all the blessings,
which the acts of this Hunse (with the formation of
which they are satisfied) have yet in store for them!
May they, to the last man, be doomed to drick to its
dregs the last cup that those Acts have provided for them !
Mr. MAXWELL, in presenting a petition from distressed
Agricultural people in Scotland, said, that the distress
arose from the change in the currency; that lie thought
the farmers would get relief ere long; but, that, lie
feared the labourers would not get an increase of wages.
The inevitable conclusion is, that Mr. Mame!' thinks,
that there will, 'ere I ng, be another change in the cur-
rency!—Lord ARCHIHALD HAMILTON observed, that, in
Scotland, the suffering was as great, and, in many res.
pects, even greater, than in England ! Where, then, aro
now the assertions of the Morning Chronicle, so of en
and so confidently made, tl.at there is no dist•ers in
Scotland, and that our distress ari es from the Pour
Laws?

Bans FLIRT!!!—False alarm! Mr. BROVeHAM
that great anxiety and alarm had been produced thin
morning, by a report, that the Brest fleet had sailed Kith
sealed orders; and that he wished to know, whether any
informat'on on the subject had reached the Guvernineui.
He was drily answered in the negative.-114 ruse
"to explain," sad this was his explanation. We
give the words as they are reported in our friend,
the Chronicle; " Mr. Baouuliast begge I to state in
" explanation, that, when mule use of the word alarm-
" ing, he did t•ut mean alarming tits reference to any

" thin 4 that the Brest fleet tumid do, for, God knew, that
•` fleet was not an object of alarm to any man within ur
witliont those welts; but he had used that expriesion
•' merely because tier intelligence was calculated to put
" the peace of Europe in jeop irdy."—So, so ! And.
" thus, Rid and is himsey again !" And that, toe, in
spite of the " three Gentlentea of Verona."—But, it ili.
news gave no alarm, if " God knew" that it gave Au
alarm to any titan within or without the walls of the
House; if this was so, and so Mr. Brougham says it was,
how could th, re be any anxiety or alarm at all? The
"explanation" is any thing but an answer to dila question.
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