The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-10-14 00:00:00

1.1111E111.1L P.1111.1.411ENT.

DEFENCE or TIIE QUEEN.
(Continued (soothe First Edition of Yertertla)'s Statesman.

[Examination of GUISEPPE G %MOUS', rontintiesl.]
In that moos of the grotto wiser% the two figures
Ashton and Eve were played. Wen' Own- toot two doors
--.41111 cause in and Wl' est out by entrance..
What w 4 the slat. of that room across: how many
(sew-vie f —From here (the bar) to there—(pointing
Is the thirst Iscnvis fr the bar). It might Ise more
ur less, fur I never measured it.
Examined I,v Mr. WILLt t
flow totally men hail you in yu sr employ when
you
agreed to Come to esmittiy ?--- hirty•bitsr
thirty-five lal.trotrers therealvitt's, or rails .r inure.
I Nil run ire any tom else when you had thi• conversa-
tion about expellers cristielosAW.
What is his shan't recollect Isis name; he is
a tall Mall ; I •Isonld know the name if I were lu hear it
Is it henry
DiJ you make an estimate of your expenres on that
orrat. ":-1 et.
4re the in w• von bare mentioned. the sums whirl,:
I Rani liXell 1115011 whets he spoke to volt?--Yes, I asks~)
• his opinion ; I was hold the English gentleman WAG a
snail of routtienee, and wtute.l au estimate of The wi-
peouts; I asked Haiti his opinion, and I agree I to it.
Did yin' telt the English tlentlesuan the suns you had
fined
Who told sun ttat Vilsall was to pay .you !,-Tou ad-
vccate,
You hate helm ftGke.l as to the door of the roots ill ishieli
11w ttatuet were WAS there ant eurGice or work done i.l
r sons of whirr our hose gis;siirei ? Nu: I nese? Grist ant
I.4witstrn there all the lime I was is the ter% ice of bar Itts)al
Highness.
Here the rsorssaiinstion closed. sa,d
The Susicerua-lirsvass. desired leave to as!: the later-
pretee whether Ia Italian the viorj ispAgirw await.' 3 Mit
CW1411111314 it .14.4 la English ?—'Car imkopf.set
rai.rr orite;trai to be sto-sisostaotost ..1s -
(creme.

Vid you mention it when you went to Pesaro to ask
for payment ?
Pitt 3-:•n then mention it to the Po hires's. nr any
one i.. her suite ?---.llter I got my money, 1 slid not
speak about it to any one in the Court.
Qnestion repeat .nl.--No, because I told you before
411;11 I went to get my money at Pesaro, end then re-
tssrnell to Milan.
1::d you, before yon get your merry. mention ti.e
vonarrAation to any one at Pes Imo ?.--It was not busi-
er,- to hue told to ally vv... I h.1.1C not.
Lord tlitstaat::s yoo seen a plan of the
house at the Villa st'E,..te slave you Caine to this coun-
try ?—No, I had it its sty- mind.
I wi•-.11 tss ask yon if the passa):e you have spoken of
wao Wintling :•11•1` says, t! sat if s.sit
straight fo:.ward, you e.” shl break your head.
Qaestion repeated.—lt is not winding, ; the walls
are undulating, lost t!se iF Strilleht.
1.4).1i tin A N .IM.—Ysits h:11. ilelt Itastelli paid
ens. witnesses that hr lasol with hies 40 or :tit francs,
an.: I:sat s'..er were at Milan seven si.lyS. I wish to
Lis in ii lovelier the::o witnesses %i-ere pia this -or
whol.• tisne, cr su sousels daily ?—Thry were paid
is
owe for
Lord I.vrtte oi,ll to Isnow what was the
an.unut of the a. ter p:•.melt yon received fris:ll the
Princess •f Wale!' ?—lt was one half, is ills the in-

te:est.
thee half of what:—The 15,5110, svi,li intr:est.
Whets did run recrive the other ;Jolt 7-1•ioe ti;.st
half II reeri.eti about the earl of January ur the he.
gibain‘ of Vebraary.
What was the largest sons the i"ritaress ever owed
you ?—The lartgeo was 45,5011 litres, with interest.
Was there stay objettion them water to yoor ay-
ennat, and was the balance them kept hark fur lila!
re;.,utt ?—No t I was entitled to rendre the 'stoney,
and I nseil to receive wise every mouth or six perks.
The Karl of learnsattaut wished the sisort-bami-
writer to refer to that part of the witness's 'frisker,
is which be said, that ha hod repeatedly talked with
; that Itastelli spoke to nor witness, which
witness went to another, and ha again to sr third.
'I he ,hor;-liami-writer hating testi over their pre-
vious atc:wrr: to the wham. est /Gthie Earl
asked
yon toenn to sir that lauttelii told von nee
• witness went and briettrit the ether, and so on 7:--1.•
that he (114:telli) 'ten: himself Iron, one to the other?
—lie said that, when he was in my eouotry, hr
treat
to ask for tole oho. os; that that wi:ne•s Wil•Ilt will,
biro to ask for anot!iet ; and that the other wrist also
i fur a witness.
Ohl Ras!elli tell volt the witnesses hronrht owe
tatt.stker to him, ur that !ot went for 'them

Wit 'leas.
Mr. Ilnounit sail he dill not is:online that such a
necessity won's' occur until after he hail examined the
last two witnesses. thing however was clear, that
the Cosirsel ;it support of the Bill, or ilorse who em-
ployed t 114.111 this man from the country., •
anti by so doing- hail rendered it albs .. ;!! fslr imposs;l. •
to tro to the credit of itit.trlli's testimony. Anil • snre:v
if there was any one thing that the a1....4.nts of that ecr.jl-
- ought not to hare done, it Irv; to send out of
the country Ow man Itaatelii, to rontinue his ntet-a:
11011%aS atfen, to that Milan Commission..
The .i.v.rov.:ne I ; Fn.% t. replied at consislerab!e
leng.th.
M. Ilunchtt to he7gesl leave to make a few obltier.t-
-tiito., not by war of reply, lea to shew tee situation,
in which he and his Mewls hail been placed. ire
said Mr. H. to be ',impelled t zo nu with this proceed•
ing without any security against the perjory that may
he prollneed.
i ird I tNo beg:fell that Connie' shonbl withdraw. •
Ile rose to s.ly, that the facts that had RIM ettftl” OUT Pt Cr.'
of a .... l4; rums natnre.— (fleas, hear, hear
the commr.: -esneht of this extraordinary prorerdin....•
wk.. it e. as mentioned that persons shod.( be proshiveu,
with whose previous conduct nr eh:martyr, the Juillge.;
or the 1.4111.14ri L.; ilt ho utterly ignition% it was '01)•51.
Isle mar perjury might lw otf. aril at the:r Lordships%
Rae. When it was asksel what security was to ha °Wet ed
against such an occurrence, the- Nohle lord opposior
roar, and with a great appear.sts eof fan:lvor, hr -.11 -
that it wonl,l hr estrentely difficult, according to the
Constimtion of this Country, to a lipt awe enatpul-
lion to make ;hose persons retain in the ..country.
—Hut that air: thing- that could he 4lnnt, he •
w", 11.1 errlialr s:lt, 1., answer the ?nisi of jai;,...
—lle t: Xi,ble fowl had re, elves! much co timend.til
for this candid proposition. !tut what trill now he,
said. when nee find, that linr of the witnesses who his
heels pastured at this her, ' not k.. 110 vu
intensify, but had he-n hnrried, and airagifed
This last act had convinced him that the' wholepro•
ont of the conntry 1.--I,Lint.l tries of her,
reeding seas a conspiracy to subvert the ends Wr.
(('beers).—Ile implores' their Lordships. as they valoest,
ihrwitelyes..a4 they rained the ancient Instfttittsnsizflh?
entintre—the ltnniml; uafi,flie ,aff•O'n, that coif too. is
take souse effectual weans of restoring it to its former

•

- .

~..

• er I*.

Whine. anitistrit'ildag ads* disgrace irhitir these
sweed'tyd bad hrinught upon tt.
Erlif.rogfttoot !4)41, that ;inn. the apiwch
of t' eNo Lordwbio hat just sat down, it would
nit Wm, tnitajtittirais to eaterat their Lordships cool
*ie patiewedttostrihts to what be had to offer in answer

f! af /orb: a speech he believed die most violent
aat .Intla6oMoiy" that had ever been uttered.
these.:.•Walls. He would appeal tIY his
, cyli,. life, from its. earliest commencement,
sad he would defy any man, not only in that House,
bat id any part of the ; iugdozn, to say that he had
'vet held cent an assurance which he had not .carried

ull.rinto caret. Ali Attack, therefore, of the descrip-1
t;yo which had been male by the Noble Lord, he
s!tttid in justice to himself repel ; hut be should demo
nith patience nut with temper. TO come to the sub-
ct seirieivered naiad forth that inflammatory speech
col tlahrNoc. LerJ, be -would at wrier admit broadly
t'.at A.was the duty of those alio had brought on this
to keep the witnesses so that they night'
tie forthcoming lei the purposes of either contradic-
tioe lot of Justice. He would admit also, that the'
seedic g Rastelli out of tile:lo'o4mA was highly blame-
eV.% but he ippealed to his past character for
b. 0.44. *hen, he assured the House, he was alto—
g*tbic ignorant of the circumstance until after he
Lsd been sent arinY.—(fiear, hear, from the
Alintsteriel Benches.)-41e believed also, and he
weed only be doing an act of justice in
nalleg his belief that thcAtterney. and Solicitoy-Lieneral
%I.:vv.:nos-nit of the eirrunistance. The fact was that
ita•telli was employed by what was called the Milan
Coessnission ; anti as -it wasfeuncl atiriseahle in the in-
tettesttleffliad /seen alienist fur her Majesty's defence,
to-setsd some person to the continent it was conceived by
d'e-orent for the prosecution that Rasrelli was the most
pre pm- person id send. This was the plait) statement
et the eau mad ire disclaitned the insinuation which had
iceeditibrceitti out, that there was any desire to prevent
yourse of justier: The- act of sending Ras:
leicatterty was blameable; but however erroneous it
• h;re been, it eat to be considered whether it bad
e.-.llll4llriete..a.n improper motive or net, He believed
1 triotelf 4t hgd inn *risen hem an improper motive, but
at 611 events, the tiovernment on hearing the circure-
io.alitx bad instantly dispatched a messenger to bririg
I:setolli.back. these observations, fur the truth
c: lie pledged himself, lie would leave the subject
Ibl'e their Lorashipst•and he asould confidently ask
:kith whether there was any thing at all to warrant the
o:bni and inflammatory implications which had been
:.:st upon. the tiovernneent by the Noble Lord opposite.
Marquis of Ls'estrowtie ruse and observed,
Oa aif it as regarded the persor.al explanation of the
Sujole Etrl, hears satisfied. But he would say that
,e.ivcircuinstanre was an additional ealamity which
timm proceedings had brought, upon the Hour. It
NW be a calJniity when stirh men as. tl.e Noble Earl
ts# coMpelled to stale their cianzactem for the defence
• e ionitterof theitgovernment, and he believed that
[miring, would admit that it required the shook
weight of even that Noble Earl's character to defend. so
lisgraceftil an act as the present.--(Cherrs.) Wicked
ift4 despicable es We agents for the ,pcusectitips had
tilnen tlrmsalssa, slue oethintethiepleted their character,
aftrlepossthie had. given fresh 1013411 for the public,
odium with which,they were loaded.--.(Cheers.) But
hetftfuld as+. liras k lit that the House should advent*
gbh a stroccediug which had been conducted by such
men in such a manner ; or was It possible that they
tomtit condemn the illststrious Individual wit* seam:
11;ider trial at that Bar after such conduct?- It .tea,
k"san.p.l44l4s pwlikrietta wieswe. *Leave be was, that
ens the Intention of their Lordships to have el the *ll,l
Klfts:maflllnYindlnint's call, that there might not 10.
t)sr lea* delay in their examination or cent
sit That intention had keen acted upon. Me.
jAvi- bc'
.l been celled back and examined ; and well.
cAtraris to the disgraceful conduct then before Opp:
ihailly it was to be observed that Carrington one et,

t`.ll44lerett's.witnesses had been demanded by the pro.
evutornal wasimnirdtatelv brought tn that bar without
tk. siiglittit.beeitation.! What was to be thought then,
whereon. that Rastelll one °film principal witnesses in
,oophort of: the posecutinn when he was demanded for
lealintrewet adjurrice, it came out that lm. had been
lit frost the kingdom .by the wicked and infamous
airlqus.efilits mutt wicked and infamous peosecution.
--:-(gisefrei)..--Wh'esi he saw this, be believed that no
"iV4Pill
'soh* could be made to the illustrious accused
fivids act of grass injustic,e except the putting an
efod te.tliewLole proceeding; and that course in lois
opieirer would.* the hest ,way to cutrect the error.--
(ilsibl tad continued cheering).
~The LAM % Cosscitti:on addresses) the !louse at some
levoirth,eed ageeed that die sending itarelli out of the
i.loghileu lit to critical a junctore was highly improper,'
a'tfortitatif the doing so had procecded•frous any desire
to Ji•eraT the ands of patois.' it should be marked with_
i goat stranger-term; hot he could not agree that tW
icemen repair the halt would be the putting an end to
thi:Ctiedittp. • • .
Mi. recordings. Their Lordships would see that for
e ado° of this witiwor at h future period would mot
heistbanoileisl to the testa the illustrious person am
at •sed. They *data be 'therefore bound to give her
AZt:f thit benefit of Ibis. to use the term; of the law,
is y.and liberally. The Noble Loral had said that
01yr-ought to .repair, the error; he (the Lord chats,
c4kw).atrzed that it,trarmot possible to de so fully, t
sioltasolasgmboes. What *boo was to he dew? • '
thi close the proceedings at that stage? There was se
mpwfia eould:pat his hand to his heart and-sity that
thl4 asitisf.he Cooly ind•hiparlially dune: Fur the Wee
1 her histesty they Aught not to do it. How theWerem
tary to prodied ? IVere they.to croti, and, as Mewl..
se* eield tot Ise•calted nosh, call him lit -,i hotbri
o.f the proceedings, making, as he before said, inn
stistiat••nsaaster, 'eery allowance for the circumstances of
the lin. ilibs, he. conceived, would he the heat 'node.
90
stepoillog. . . .
Mbe.,;llol, of CARNARVON contended • that no step
could be takes which would compensate the illus.
Mahe . licensed for this monstrous 'injustiet, ex-
csit;:the deltractiow of the whole Oroceedingl.—;
(rsolid tismis.)—Tht defence bad beet. interrupted
. ~
lir”Mooloat df the Uorernment ; the whole pro:iced-
ills* bsul. bees Mt Insult to justice; an insult to coin-
seen.arewey mad a disgrace, he wombd not say to their
Laitilublisic Kt be would say that a perseverance in this
prnaieatileg would ultimately disgrace them as it bad
aatngwly disgraced tbw records of the country. It hid'
"Nap, twat wig dia.:was a saboyeatien of. iiiti :I
• j
.11yr—f(liet .4
« NO:. No.'!)--Yea; he woUld .
Ma. • sod lot it •light where It could be • .
't.eros Mt • thirek Asti beentabornat ion of perkily,
earl thatigal.. isd besa*Mitfsdrawa from the g
at. jut4e..L•4l6lwmart.): —As toe the mil itself,: if
trireppssatiwilistkitc. Howe could pass it spits
toridesef. he trueted, tilers was joetice enough W/It
Saw hp images its lllosebars to rejict 'it with la

•, • • •

....,.,,.. . ... _..•
......

STA]

_4d,.

1.. .m0mw.......-.
t_tcoP. air' thin **Nate teneJonce of their eonstituent:. !
fie mad oily dale,"-that• in has topmost, the House
never could, onietnit. the ' illueerlons erased after
HA nut outrageous coitattet. and tberefbre.it would
be but Jost, as welLas paiit?c, to destroy the whole
procerdinas at-vnee, and endeavour to restore the
public mind to tranquillity. He should. therefore,
lake the sense of the !lease on i motion, now to put an
end to the Hill--(heai, bear!) Ile implored them,
fur the honour of the country, for their own honour,
for the audit of all their future proceeding', nut to
press the measure further.—lle moved that the Bill
be read a second time this day six months. (The
Noble Earl was so overpowered with indignation that
his voice actually broke in the course of his speech.
lie sit down amid the moo rapturous chreriur.)

Lard ELLSNISORIWOU entreated their Lordships' not
to break up in the ' Idle of the enquiry, thereby leas-.
inn a uwral conviction on the minds of all, of her Ma-
jesty's quilt.
laird DARNLEY said that before this question was
dispose,' of, he should like to hear the opinion of her 1
Majesty's Counsel, as to whether any injury was likely'
to be done to tbeii Illustrious I'lient's cense, if a stop
was put to the proceedings at the present moment.
Earl IL:FY said, that he never rose with greater diffi-
culty or under wore painful feelings than ou the present'
occasion to express his sentiments, and load lie been the
lies' to call their Lordships' attention to the question
before them. he should have delivered himself *MI
all that warmth which his Noble Friend who lta.l
preceded him. For notwithstanding, the explanation of)
the Noble and Learned Lord, he must say that be could
nut see iii what st ay it was now possible that substan-
tial justice could be done. What the Noble and
Learned Lord had said was, that the abstraction of
this uititess at the present !Mimeo% when it was im-
possible to produce him, had inflicted an injury on
her Majesty's cause which it was impossible for that
House to repair. If the Queen was deprived of
the loran: effectual to her defence. and those means
were not effectually supplied hereafter, by some other
mode, was it not the inevitable consequence, that the
defence so injnred, substantial justice yeah' not be
done. He felt, that the situation of Ministers, was
one of great atisiety, but feeling, as be did. that '
there was no possible remedy for what had been com-
mitted by the agents of this prosecutioe, he
could not do otherwise than. support the motion
of his Noble Friend. In nitstsuring the ammo of
the injury caused by this art, it was impossible that
any wan could ln.foridtand know what might east
place. It was impossible that any man could 'Sy
what might not be drawn from the witness at a future
period when certain information was supplied to hint.
Under this point of view, therefore, the Noble and
Learned Lord was sure of meeting with tho acrord-
ance of all who heard hint, when he said that au irre- 1
parable injury had been done to her Majesty. His
Noble Friend stated that suborination for perjury bad
been proved ; and' it appeared clear that this %lithe"
Itastelli, died been employed to suborn other witnesses
by proffers' of money. Ile went to one, which one
went to another, who again went to a third: and so
on, till in all probability it would be proved in the int'
' that the testimony about the figures of Adam and
Eve had been obtained in this manner, by force of filmset;
Proceeding in this Way. the conspiracy might be di.
'retest and exposed in all its parts; sod the deieuee of
her Majesty make tier completely triumphant user Op
most fool conspiracy that uter threatened tie Imaimir of
lan individual. The Heuer laying in that sitnatillto-de-
I scribed by the Noble Lord, that substantial justice coati'
not be dune, if his Noble Friend pressed Ids motion, It
must lure his full emit. The fact of this roan's being.
withdrawn at this moment was nut only 't udged. but
most iniquitoris.—(flear, bear:)--The Noble Lorilop-
polite (Lord Liverpool) hoped lie could not be charge,'
with being access .ry to this flagitious act. He was
willing to grant every thing that could be asked In
the high character of the Noble Lord. • When the
Noble Lord had given a pledge to that House ill'l
every thing on the part of Uovernment should
be Jane to further the ends of substantial.
jostice, and to keep the wit in the same situation
precisely as when they left the bar of that House, the
House, in consideration of the Noble Lord's fish cha-
racter. gave him full credit for sincerity, and accepted
the pledge with complete security. Hut if, after having
given that pledge aU the weight of his high character,
lie found 'outsell in a situation in which those who were
bound to his orderand to support his character, betrayad
both hint and that 'loose, what security lie asked could
they feel in site future pledges of the Noble Lord that
substantial justice should lie done! His character
would not for the fdture avail him. (Cheers.)
Lord Liveitroot spoke at considerable length aeainet
the motion. lie said, that it would degrade the Shantou
of that Home, to shrink from the investigation at that
period, anal that, after hearing the evidenre fur the ac-
cusation, and part of the evidence for the defence, no-
thing could he more injurious to the character and ho-
nour of the Queen, than to stop the proceedings. He
was willing to go the whole length, in saying, that if
the act w*s done intentionally, it would he a most liti-
gious act. Sat that it was intentional, Ito could not be- .
lies-e. lie concluded by 'toying. that it would be most
unwise and impolitic, awl t injurious to her Majesty
the Qtii;en, to stop err Proceedings at the present mOnieni.
Lord Mitatel said, that the view which lie had
taker. after the enfortunate necessity of entering into -
'this Investigation ass, that the truth or falsehood of..
the allegations contained in the preamble of the Ain,
should he ascertained. For that purpose, he had con-
sidered is legislative measure the most desirable course
to persist,' aid not an impeachment. 1:e trusted the
Noble Lord.would not press a division upon his ino-
tiuu, as it ras now of the greatest importance, that '
Am investigation • afoul(' he allowed to go on.
Lord A Lvant.er stated, that he never could make
up his mind, to believe. that the sending away of Ras-
' tent; arose from an error of judgment, and more
Particularly, if it bad been the act of any person con- •
decte k with the Milao Commission.
-..Lorit PiraltriSoth in a low tone of voice, which mild.
I not be distinctly beard, acknowledged that Mr. Powell
(one athearentliin support of the Bill) was this person
who read sent Rastelli away. •
Lord Caltat•RVON thought OW a case opglit to he
'Omitted to her . Majesty's ,Counsel for their opissioo,
whether or wit )he stopping Of these'proetedingtwoold , .
he injurions to the Queen ; especially after the Noble '
Earl opposite had •olaji.ctivi t 6 his motion, on tie ground
:that suds a cosies. WoOlii be against the interests of the
:Queen. Though ready to state that nothing could alter
Phis;opistioq that they ought for their own sakes, and
for theialie of tbe eituntry, to pit all infamediate stop to
:the proce•dinga; fit he would isollusit,to what belied
'heard, and withdraw his isodisp: • no Noble Earl
.I.ureposism !sail raid that if thily wrrat.• dap that mien
'la palisi 11.4114 wouldtat ha swished. Ho would soy i

.

:-*.

[_ . ,r-------- - -
that the first *by in which the-public iteuied that the
whole proceedings were. pasted: would be an.hour of
rejoicing. • •
. Lard licoutaixotow spike of the bleb character of
Mr. Powel, a'od expressed his opinion that although the
sending away of Itastelli was a very improper act, yet,
ite was confident that when examined into, it entail be
itimed
to have arisen front no improper motive.
lord HOLLAND said that he owed it to himself and to
thii Noble Earl over the way to state, that he did not be-;
here him to he directly or indirectly a party to the send-
ing away of this man. This disbelief was founded porn
the character which be had preserved on all occasions
and at alt times. And though in that House. he wee
pnerally in hostility to the measures of the Noble Earl,
A
he would say that ou neither side I) the honey could
'nd a man more incapable of inch a act. But thougl
he would acquit him of any thing I. e a conspiracy of
this nature, still he did think that on this occasion,
and ihroughout the m hole proceedings, he bad under-
taken untre for that House than he was able to perform.
If when the ?Fable Earl hail pledged himself to their
Lordships, the Witnesses should be detained in this coun-
try, to answer any charges which might Le brought
aialisat them as arising from these proceedings, if he
bad then etated that the management of those wit-
nesses would be entrusted to subordinate agents over
whom lie had no confront, their Lordships would, lie
was sure, have come to a very different decision than
time one to which they did come. The House under-
stood what the Noble lied said to be a pledge
that, they should be detained. lie had no doubt
of the 'Noble Earl's hating done all that it was
po.sible lieronlil have done; but he had not done what
the Ilotist-expected. His noble friend (Lord Caernarvon)
bad withili 3%1 n his motion, because it had been said that
it+ adoption would have been an injustice to the Queen.
" For my part," said the Noble Lord. " I am made of
sterner stuff; and I should have been ready now, as I hare
been at all times, to put an end to these odious proceed.
ines. Therefore I should certainly have voted for the
motion."

After a short conversation, Lord Otter moved that
Mr. Powell he called to the bar, and examined, to ex-
plain the cause of ltastelli's absence.

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