The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-06-30 00:00:00

THE. KrATE3ll.4.iti

After an obserYatire. from Sir .1. Nlecetneostr, the
papers were referred to a Committee for the purpose of
selecting the materia: parts of the papers.
The CHANt 'ET.LOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the reading of ti.e Order ..1 ti,c in.y far receiving the
Report of the Totra,To Duties Rif., fer the purpose of
being ler:limier! •0 high time Menrher•
would he at nit!' the reiterations that had
been made.
Mi. HORITOT'SE thought that as the Bill now
stood, there w, eld not be much objection to it. There
were some nr*nor which he hoped would he w
adjusted, as to prevent Gra neecasity of a debate on
Monday.
Lord G. CAVENDISH prer.;•nted a petition from
the Retail Trade's of Asliturialiani, complaiisioz of
persons exposirg arreles, t.ot cf their own manufac-
ture, fur sale upon open stalls in that town.--Lairl on'
the table.
The Exelirqi:er Bills upon Public Works Bill. was
read a second tinie, and ordered to be committed to-
11101701V.
The Stock Cancelling Bill was reported. and order-
ed to be read a third time to-morrow.
The Silk Bounties Bill went through the same stage.
To be read a third titue to-morrow.
The Irish Collectors of Customs Bill was read a
third time awl passed.
The East India Private Trade Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The Lie of Man Trade Bill was reported, and or-
dered to be read a third time to-morrow.
The Order of the Day for the second rearli,q, of the
Resolution of the Committee of Supply was then read.
Some Resolutions were agreed to without a discus-
sion.
Upon the 'rations for (ranting 8,400'. for sala-
ries to the Commit,..i.iners and Clerks of tire Insolvent
Debtors' Courts,
'Mr. G. BENNET considered the %Aeries of the
Judges were nia. h too liar4e, and ought to be reduced.
Mr. BERNAL differed with hi.; lion. Friend, and
thought that ti.e dignity of Judges ought to be fully
supportell.
Mr. lit,-ME oi.j•cted to the Judges in question hold-
ing other situations from which they derived emolu-
ments.
Mr. CiIEBVEt said the Puisne Judges received
considerably less erooloiments than thl Judges in ques-
tion, for whirl' he could see no reason.
Mr. MONCE said there was no comparison between
the duties to hr periutined by these Judges. The
iVelch Judges were only employed twice a year, where-
as the Commissioners of the lurolvent Debtors' Court
were obliged to give up the whole of their time to their
duty. He thought the worst of economy would he that
which reduced the saint ies of Judges so low as not to
render them worth the acceptance of men of taleut and
integrity.—(Hear.)
A Mennen observed, that the general salaries of
the Police of the Metropolis were upan too low a scale.
Mt. CALCRAFT thought the salaries of the. Coin.
inissioneir. not too great. He bad been one who re-
commended that the present sums should he allowed,
and lie was still of opinion that they were trot more
that. a just termitic ration for the duties perfurtued.
After a fete vinrds from Mr. Anceraostnir, Mr. J.
BENET , and the All orNLIArl.Nen...l., which ware
inaudible, the Resolution was agreed to.
A Message from the Leeds al:bounced their Lord-
ships' assent to several Hills.
'IC he next Resolution was for a grant of 5,()001. fur
defraying the e tpense of the Alien Offi..es in Ireland.
Sir R. WILSO'N opposed this grant- The Ho-
nourable Member conderoued the priuciple of the Alien
Bill, and expre.sed his opinion of its unconstitutional
tendency.
Mr. lIOIIIIOUSE concurred in what had fallen
from his Ilunourable and Gallant Friend. The Noble
Marquess could scarcely form an idea of the effect of
this Bill upon the minds of Foreigners. The lion.
Member here related an anecdote which came within
his own knowledge at Milan. An English Gentleman
being at the 'I beano., was incommoded by the hich
cap of a military officer who sat before him. Af er
some remonstrative the Englishman removed the rap ;
and fur this Ire was put in confinement. lie (Mr. fl.)
interfered for lids coatervinan, an-I was told there could
be no peculiar hardship in the case, for that Lord
Castlereagh hail a power by the Alien Bill to serve
any Foreigner in England in the same manner. Ile
mentioned this just to shrew the impression which the
Bill bad made abroad. lie trusted the House would
this night put their Veto upon a measure too bad to he
characterised by any langenge.
Mr. H. CLIVE defended the Bill, and denied that
it had been attended with any oppressive effects upon
Sir R. WILSON explained.
Mr. BERNAL spoke against the Bill, as throwing
impediments in the way of an extension of our com-
merce.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, that
although lie knew the general aversion of the Gallant
Geueral to the Alien Bill, he scarcely thotteht him re-
rious in his intention of taking the sense of the Horse
upon the present question, which was a mere vale for
the payment of ..caries. The po;iey of the lair did
not come reettla-ly before the House tinder the pre-
sent vote. If, however, any sleek ease should be
pointed on! in which any individual had been molested
in this coonfry fur his condect abroad, he (Lord Lon-
donderry) v ew:tl join in abhor-rimy the measure. It
was used eqs!y a,.:•iinst those who wished to make Eng-
land the theatre of their conspiracy.
Sir JAMES .MACKINTOSII said, his abhorrence
of the Bill was so great, that lie should avail himself
of every opportnnity to oppose it. As be had no
other weans left, be worthd endeavour to starve the
monster to death, by withholding the supplies which
supported it.
Mr. BENNET said the opposition to the vote was
perfectly constitntional, as it Wa,alwaye the practice
to
refuse the supplies fur a measure which was not approv-
ed of. He knew an instance of a Neapolitan Gentle-I
man who had been arrested at Naplee and impri-
soned, after leaving returned to the city in conse-
quence of th:, persuasions of the English anti French
Ambassadors. He trusted this matter would be in-
quired into.
The Jlargness of LONDONDERRY. after obeerr-
iog that the King of Naples was generally beloved
by his subjects, stated be had not the slightest know-
ledge of tier cirennistance alluded to by the Honourable
Member.

Lord IlitTOK said be believed the private charac-
ter of the Kieft of Naples to he highly exemplary i
but of his government he should say nothing He
believed a worse government did not exit.—(A laugh.)
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON thou !lit the English princi-
ple of holding Ministers responsible for the misconduct
of Government ought to lie adopted in all monarchical
governments. Ihe Hon. Member condemned the con-
duct of the Allied Sovereigns towards the King of Na-
Naples; and referring to the question before the
Hbuse, approved of the motion of the Gallant General
for opposing the pa ogress of this obniinious Bill.
The House then divided upon Sir R. Wilson's
Amendment, when there appeared—
For the Amendment, 27 ;—Against it, 41;—Ma-
jority, 17.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
The remaining Resolutions were agreed to without
any observation.
Sir R. WILSON prevented a Petition in favour of
the Wil for punishing Cruelty to Auintals.—Ordered
to be printed.
ALLOWANCE TO THE DUKE OF CLARENCE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXIAIEQI'ER moved
the Order of the Day for the third reading of the
Bill for making a provision for the Dube of Clarence.
Mr. CREEVEY said be had many objection.: as well
to the principle of the Bill as to the mangier in which
it was hiouglit forward. First, he thought it was
brought forward too late in the Session ; he thought
too, with greet submission to the Chair, that it ought to
have been. preceded by a Message from the Crone ; and
his next objection was, that it shewid an appearance of
favouritism for one branch of the Royal Family to the
neglect of another. I lie presentitneen had voluntarily
given up fifteen thousand pounds a-vear. It was true
also that the Duke of Clarence had given up 6000/.
a-year in ISI 4 ; but the difference was, that the Queen
Rave up bee's because she thought it too much, and the
Duke gave up his because he thought it too little. It
teas hard that the people should be called upon to make
this provision in the same Session in which they had
been loaded with the expetices of the trial of the Queen,
.a trial in itself so iniquitous, and so contrary to the
opim.io:.s of those same peopie.—lle was justified in
'calling upon the House to refuse this grant, iu conse-
Iquence of the ferocious conduct of the Noble Claimant
on this disgraceful trial.
The Marquess of lA)NDONDERRY rose to order.
He submitted that observations of such a nature were
highly disorderly.
The SPEAKER said lie thought there should be some
measure observed in remarking upon the conduct of
Members of the other House.
Mr. CREEVEY said he spoke only of the public con-
duct of the Duke of Clarence, who was uuw a suitor to
that House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER inter-
posed, and said it was out of order to comment upon
the individual public condact of any Member of the
other House.
Mr. CREEVEY said be had no wish to go out of the
way to offend any Member of the Royal Fainily.—!tut
Le lead himself witneacoi the trial in question ; and had
heard the Duke give his judgment of Guilty by pro-
nouncing, rho word „Content," anal in a tune which lie
(Mr. C.) had never heard before in any civilized so-
ciety.—(There was here a general call of " Order.")
The SPEAKER said lie believed 110 Member of the
House was more anxious to defend the freedom of de-
bate than the lloirourable Member. Would not that
lion. Member then, think this right infringed upon, if
any person in any other place were to arraign his (Mr.
(:.rs) conduct in that House ? Ile put it to the House,
and to the Hon. Member himself, to apply this princi-
ple to the remarks for which the Hon. Member had been
called to order.
Mi. CREEVEY begged to apologize. lie had spoken
under the influence of strong feelings, and he would
therefore nut say another word upon that part of the
subject. He conceived, however, that lie had a right to
observe upon the expense of the approaching Corona-
tion. It had been called a solemn occasion—a compact
between the King and his people; he (Mr. Creevey) be-
lieved it was not so regarded by the people, and he was
borne out in this by the fact that there was no national
sympathy on the subject. 'flie present situation of the
Queen probably accounted for the apathy which was so
generally observed. Upon the question of Law as to
liar right to be crowned, he professed himself unable to
give Jul opinion ; hut lie hail heard that she was not
even to be present. lie trusted this was not the case ;
he trusted that the Noble Marquess would not set the
King and Yuma in open array against each other.—
With respect to the present Dill, as his objection to it
was upon principle, he certainly would be no party toil.
Mr. ill. ItANKES said, he thought there was no limb-
ject less relevant to the present question than that of
the Queen. The Duke of Clarence hail acted with per-
feet consistency in refusing the money in the lir-it 'fl-
atware, and in accepting it now. His refusal was caused
by the belief that the Lady whom he was about to
marry would object to live in England un .10 limited au
income. She had, however, consented, and lie (Mr. IL)
thought it was generons in the D;ike to reface the
money, when he thought lie mast necessarily spend it
in a foreign country. Urn, the ground of the annual
stun he was gbd to observe, there was scarcely any
difference of opinion ; and, on that of the arreari, he
trusted there world be as little.
Mr. HARBORD said, he wan n Mint% to vote for the
60001. a-sear, but not for the arrear^. The case of the I
Queen had, he thought, been very properly introduced;
for, if the claim of the Duke was to be allowed as to
the arreara, the Queen would have a tight to demand
105,U001. for the arrears of that which she had for-
merly given up. In such a case lie did not see how the
liononrable Gentlemen opposite could rote against the
claim. He should himself himself vote against it, ac he
should ac''inst the present, and in go doing he conceived
he should be consistent. He thought personal consi-
deration.; very objectionable. He wished equally to
avoid affiliation on the one hand, and insult on the
other. When lie had an opportunity of doing so, be
should support the annual sum, but should oppose the
arrears.
Sir I coFrix said a few words in support of the
Bill.
Mr. BENNET said, his opinion was decidedly against
the whole grant. He should not enter into any q,nes-
tions of a personal nature, lint lie could not retrain trout
observing, that the Coronation was ill suited to the po-
verty of the country. It n-as an old remark, that a
country sick at heart should not put on a smiling face.
He thought the expenditure of 1011,11410/. upon a mere
pageantry teac much to be censured, especially as the
people would not participate in the festivity. if the
Treasury were full, he should see no great objection
to it. but when mourning was too visible in all our
streets, he protested againstthe unnecessary expenditure
of so large a sum of public money.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY deprecated the
drawing of so exaggerated a picture respecting the state
of the country. The effect could not but hare a ten-
dency to turn the feelings of the people against a cere-
mony forming an important part of our ancient institu-
tions, and was brought forward to revive feelings whieli
were nearly extinct. When the Hon. Members advo-
cated the cause of what they called universal liberty,
but which he called universal confusion, they spoke
with lofty grandeur of our resonrces, but when an ex.
pens, was suggested fur a most constitutional purpose,

Pf - ,lip -v.

tPin,:gell7=e:onetealtro.).
their hearts actually overrate with
He could asslre the House. that 0.1 :he priarhing tr.
rentony nothing had been wi:a ► V'Z'tV to ((Le
rade, and that every part of solen.nit7 had been ar.
ranged with the utmost atti to
He wa• t oneineed the people of this crepitry nould not
hate evinced that di.content spoken of relitive to a Ice
occa.ion, had it not been ter the sum zestioh of the Hen.
Member for Appleby, and those who sat alma: him. Ile
protested against the exaggeration of thome Honourable
tHe hou!d fee! that
hijs enNtliezete,ntv.n.7
Ministersth presentefind otir a;irilont;
vice to his Majesty had they not advised that he should
take the earliest moment to seal by the angnst ceremony
of the Coronation, the solemn compact, both civil grid
religious, entered into betwixt his Majesty and the pea
ple.—(Hear. hear.)
Mr. FIUME took the evilest opportonity, as Otte of
those tantitril by the Noble Lord oppii.itc, who MA
accompli: lied the agitation of the eottutry on the ocia.
a .I..6,,tl:lll.lllllllyiewreouthlde
sion of the Queen's trial. He threw hick the fawn m
the Noble Lord. It was be and the Fili.iii..s.loouhin,c.i4ll:
so,
were the firebrand on that occasion. It Welt the Noide
Lord and his friends, who, in attempting to arraign the
Queen of England at the Bar of
Judge and Juror ivere united in the !..1111e person, LA
raised the country in her behalf.
because they knew she was iniewent : but they totdd
not now say she was noprotected. 'll,ey thought she
would be an easy victim, and as for saying that the
indignant
live tom; allietelirntgleocaf trheeernaotfiltjhne"N.Poreale Lo,:! Iva:, code,'.
The Noble Lord had called the eusnrug Coronition au
august and sacred institution. It was intpussiMe env
thing could be sacred from which justice was eathatkii..
If the King had a right to be crowned the Queen bad
also. The Noble Lord and a Noble Kart in another
place hail, in his hearing, pledged theur.elves that if her
Majesty were acquitted, she would he enttiled to all her
rights as Queen. He wished to sse his Nlijesty crownetl,
but he did not want to see hint degrade.' in the eyes of
the country, by an act of injustire 14 one who was so
nearly allied by blood to the late King.
Mr. F. PALMER. said, ler should vote against the
::rant of the arrears, which he assured the Ifutiouieble
Gentlemen opposite was con..iilered nut of doors as a
moo! profligate grant. He thought the Noble
most unjust in taunting his Honourable Friends %till,
causing the agitation of the public mind with reipeet to
the Queen ; and also with being advocates for squander.
ing public money iu support of wars on the Continent.
They wished to allay that ireitation by causite; to he
alone what was lost, and wislied the influence of the Go.
vernrnent to be employed to prevent the wars in (pies.

Mr.
leisW. satin' defended the conduct of liiiie7w4fil:ifartshdaronornd.f
t Honourable or
eneopuereatbtl
ee
their
Ist)
ttp the ikyl.itxxiet:el meddle in the Qum.
believed
to ho..tilitie'.
it 'lever had {wen proposed
an
athet
fomenting,tPainr. eti
tptui
gm' to the cot onation, he thought the money had het-
ter be spared to the country. It might be Coestitt.
tional Ceremony, but hr was sure that it would not in
any way tend to strengthen the ties betwixt the Sow.
ittefifierre the
reign and the subject. Ills Majesty would lw regarded
na-
tiongtiteaieki)scrttter.
oitoßlitrfaihoelvotit?riaitiaetvtidiltoasil
oet
sleaafyer:irrstete.totistiel,ao,e
awK, yyieso
as the legal, legitimate, lterailitary Sovereign of the n
htek'sltliclieulfrensolit";
King
el
otafer etEgh,rel
the
:tat
glisittleolis!iisitfillegioeienaeltviicc,blicaeofitft..
the natiou. lion. Members ought to remember that there
was a solemn oath to be taken by
could only be taken on such an occasion. To degrade
the ceremony was to uodertnine the Constitution of the
country. With regard to the expenses a great part of it
was already iacurred. Independent of the expense
which would fall on the nation to discharge, a great
sum of money must be expended by those who were
obligated to attend, which could not fail to be most grate.
NI to the labouring classes, which, indeed, was already
felt highly beneficial. The lion. Member opposite
(Mr. Smith) onglit;to remember that the result of an in-
terference on our part in the affairs on the Continent on
a late occasion, might have been to plunge us into war.
It might have been otherwise, but that was the ahem-
five we should have hail, if our negoriations to pro-
cure peace bad failed. With regard to the Queen,
it could not be doubted that the efforts of the Hoe.
Gentleman opposite lied very much excited the irritation
in the country complained of. lithe people were averse
from such proper ceremonies of our Constitution, it were
lit they %hold.' be familiarised to them.
N1r..11013901;5E doubted very mueli the legality ef
crowning the King without the Queen. The Right
lion. Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst. %) arguments in (arose
of the Coronation appeared to him of a very curious Da-
titre. In the first place he wished to make out that die
poor would be benefitted by the expenditure of moor
first drawn out of their pockets. Then with regard to
the oath, it (lid not follow that because a certain thing
was enjoined in case of the occurrence of a certain
event, that therefore that event was enjoined. With re-
spect to the Bill before the House, lie certainly should
net rote for the grant of arrears. Ile thought that
those who paid had a right to estimate the character of
those to whom they paid, and grant in proportion.
Lord M ILTON confessed lie felt altogether iedif-
ferent as to the ceremony of the Coronation of the Kier.
lie knew that the history of England taught that it rag
an august ceremony ; but lie did not think that it trisehe
have ~mine obligation to the allegiance of the Ede
ject, or one more to the Sovereign to observe the laws.
The SrEAKER then left the Chair, Mr. Baocnes pre.
sidin as Chairman of the Committee.
On reading of the Grant of 6,0001. a year to the Date
of Clarence, from the year ISIS,
Mr. HUME moved scan Amendment, twat it:steels(
ISIS, the Grant to continence from 1821.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY. before the
House divided on the question, begged to enter his pre-
test against any thing in the case of the Qneen, lmhtling
e•
as a precedent on the present Grant to the Duke of City
rence ; lie considered that the How ought not to object
to make time grant retrospectively. as it "lila only be
placing themselves and the Dace of Clarence in the
same sattetion they were content to be in a few yearsago. Nothing hail occurred to alter the relative peel:
tion of the parties. His Royal Highness had livid
abroad for one year, and his conduct there was.of a ae.
titre to exalt him in the eve' of the House and the::
try, and he could not conceive that Parliament
not be as willing now as then to relieve his Royal High'
ness from his embarrassments.
wonderJdr. HC~lh: did not
sef ta.otu
rie ati
the pa‘rtteettaltz:ngebtythadt:
Noble Marquess. lie wa
for the Duke of Clarence which his advice had perms
lost him before. lie (Mr. Howe) objected to the grown;
feretwey
between the Queen's ease and the Koval re
asto saeppraergaedteetalite.t wioleghraandtsa.i walrbseardeswisaesdtthiimse marked '6;7
ial ign w
—hertig hti'stitrsotiYo Bare up
Roy
p her
H
art of i ncohme ess
have his, because he thought it too little.
etl"
The house then divided—For the Amrndluent.."---1
Against it, 54—Majority in favour
,of the would P
thought
Grant, 30.
The Report was ordered
erecistelb.eareclueli.ved to-tnorrow.
.
, Fitup,it rota
The CHANCELLOR of the EXLII .
the second reading of this Bill.
He believed a
couragentent to immorality and v.
we.
Mr. RENNET protested against this Bill. at 5" •
r.

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