The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-05-10 00:00:00

'FETE STATESMAN.

been made 'before the Magistrates. The next deponent
he should bring before the House was 't boinaa Ton-
inridge, to whom Edwards spoke of a Cabinet diluter.
which was to have been held in December last, and
Paid, in aliasion to a Noble fool, that " that b--Y
Irish butcher must he done away ;Title" Another
man, nain-d iea:ur, Edwards shortly before the
last Smitliti-ld meeting, when he wished !Ile', to go
with him, fur the purpose of seeing what they were
about, but Senior declined having any tiling to tin with
him. This Senior was a man of respectable rharar-
laugh.)—The,T was another man who said
that lie had frequently met Edwards at a hornet- where
the newspapers were read,when hr was alwayeprepoti
plans for killing the Ministers, and mine they night
he got rid of by a few hand-gramules, directing the
deponent at the same time to acco:npany him to the
pt iee where the Committee were to meet. Another in-
Idividnal called on eon deponent on the 19th of Au-
gust, immediately after the Manchester meeting, telling
hint that the New liadi had been set fire to, and that
now sv it the time for the Reformer, to storm London,
and rally the it forces. Th's individual proved to he
Ino other than Edwards. the deponent saw him again,
Ihet he was then too lei., to have any thino to do with
him. Another person stated, that Edwar.is was rim-
tinuaily calling at the house where he worked, and
asking if all the men in the shop •.-ere Reformers ?
This person's:nil he was a Reformer himself, but could
not answer for the others. Edwards then looked at
some swords which he saw in the shop, and said they
would answer the purpose, asking, at the same time, if
he might take them away, and was tole/• he might
Edwards shortly after railed at the place fur some more
swords of the same di seription, and bring told that
there were no more, i.e expressed impatience, what;
the person told him that twenty-four new swords mid'
two daggers had been sent to his house in iris absence,
end that he might have them. This ass shortly be-
fore the Cato-street business, and Edwards asked the
person to go with him and see what they were dolt*.
;He went accordingly, and saw Edwards in a flannel
!jacket, making grenades, and more busy than any
the others. Two Irishmen came in soon after, sok
immediately went away, saving, " We'll stay here 111
longer, there is a spy in the company." The evidenee
of this person was fully corroborated by that of !'hatne
bees. He (Mr. Alderman Wood) had no wish to
I keep back the names of the persons %I ho manic the II
!depositions; on the contrary, they themselves de-•
;
sired that they should he made public, if seers.'
sary. This person said, that be knew tine brother
of Edwards, who was c•ntineeted with the entice,
and that having been conducted to l'ato-street, he could
not sac how, he instantly ran away, the moment he
saw what they were about, as did also several others.
There was another man, who swore that when he at-
tempted to get away from the stable, inn the night in
question, Edwards threatened to knock him down
with a stick if be should do so, and stood at the door
to prevent him. The man, however, succeeded at last
in effecting his escape. Another man beard Edwards,
say, " if ever there was a time in which the Ministers,
could be disposed of, it is now. We are quite ready;
we have got a number of men." To this the umeeree,
plied, that such a plan might do for foreigners, but as
'to them (meanin7 Th:etlewood and himself) they knee
I nothing about it. lie said this on the part of This-1
tlewood, whom he had known some time before, when
he sold an estate for 7,000/. Another individual with
' whom Edwards had a conversation in January, Itsl9,
stated that that person proposed to him a plan for de-
stroying his Majesty's Ministers, either iu their carri-
ages or at a Cabinet dinner. Ile talked of the neces-
sity of persons going to the Smithfield meeting pro-
vided w;th arms; and further proposed a design for
assassinating the Ministers at their own houses. One
' of the papers which he (Alderman Wood) held in his
hand, contained a detailed expinnation of the whole of
this inan's most inf.rnal schemes. With this, how-
ever, he would not trouble the House. It stated, that
an individual had traced Edwards down to Windsor ;
there he was seemempinyed tinder the patronage of his
Majesty's Ministers, and assn after lie was found en-
gaged in those schemes which lie had before men-
tioned. Another individual stated, that he met Ed-
wards in a waggon at the Smithfield meeting; that
Edwards supplied him profusely with gin, and told him
to address the meeting, to speak out, and not to mince
the matter, for nothing was to be done in that way;
that he (Edwards) hail prepared a large quantity of
fire-balls and other thiugs of that sort, which he would
supply the moment there was occasion for them. He
(Alderman Wood) would not read all the papers which
he had with him, it was sufficient for him to state, that
they contained charges, which, if true, and of this he
had no doubt, proved that there never was before such
a traitor in this country.—(Hear!)—lt was very re-
markable, that in the whole of the evidence which be
had collected upon this subject, though he did sell
state it all to the House, there was not one instating ett
any other person acting as a seducer, except &twee&
Not one instance appeared where A. seduced B.; but,
in all the eases, Edwards was the only person to pro-
pose these schemes, and to get others to join in them.
The various individuals who had made the depositions,
stated to him (Alderman Wood), fir lie put the sows-
tioe to them, that they had not been originally spoken
to by any one but Edwards. If the t onsmittee were
granted, be would not hesitate to say that he could
produce such evidences.. must convict this individual.
Me might be told, indeed, that the persons who receiv-
ed the suggestions, and beard the propositions, went
guilty of misprisiun of treason. Should such a charge
be made, he was prepared to meet it. But even if thin
were the case, would it tend in any degree to lighten
the guilt of Edwards ?—(bear, bear,hear !).—Therm
was ear part of the evidence which he bad omitted,
and It nu* urea high matbority. It wield be
proved, if an opportunity for doing so were given, that
Edwards bad passed to the person, to whombe alluded
IBMs authority, Money which be bad received from
• raise officer. Edwards had lodged in this gentle-
' van's house for six weeks under the name of Wards,
but he afterwards told hint that his name was Ed-
ran's, and than he had retrieves to this change of
Ives, becalms be was espy of Goveranseet.—(A laugh.)
—The Worthy Alderman concioded with observing,
Mot this temseaction respecting the NNW, "mid be
eleariypareed and be nestled the Strobe/torah! oral
la hie wissium—(lietka hear.) • T
Sir WILBOA avattiled the utalliaa He ttttlMi

1

mended the ermrse pnraued by hi' Hon. Friend, and. doletorre thws•e•stigut Ward." Ile hoped the Him::
thought that for his tirilance upoa this, and :other would excuse him for saying so much as to the auth o•
occasion connected with the pursuit of justice, the Fairs of the ancient world : it was the Hou. Gent: e•
emnitonnity owed him every mark of gratitude.— min who started the .subject. If the ancieht world
(Hear, hear !)--The present motion deserved the most was aeainst the practice of employing spies, ho was VI!
serions attention of the House ; for such was the state modern world. He did not knew of any modern
of (lieress in the country, such the sense felt by the writer who directly advocated the doctrine of hide.: ; a
people of nnredrehael Imn o. from whatever cause, celebrated writer somewhere said, that it might Le nee .:-
Ct.it if such men as Castles, 4i I i vet-, anal Ede ads were awry for &Government to employ brates,as well as men;
to set otio for a short time at Manchester, or any (other ! and Moatesquien said,that even in a monarchy spies w• :e
lacer matinfatenriar town, they might seduce to de- notho /*employed, for the infamy of the perso.3 bespoke
stru Minn not a few persona, but thonsands.—(Hear !) the infamy of the thing. When the Hon. Gentleman
—lt ehos manifest that Edwards did project the Cato- said that spies *ere necessary for a Government, Le
street conspiracy, did assist in preparing arms and (should have added for a bad Governmen•—a good
ammunition, and if the whole of the depositions were thoverninent never stood in need of them. lie did not
read, it would appear how much farther he was impli- recollect any good Government that ever employed
eared. He would not say, indeed, that the principal them ; the great distinction, therefore, to Le made was
and leader of that conspiracy was seduced by Edwards. ' between a bad Government and a good Government.
Bet as to the others who were placed at the bar with He was sorry, lee said, to hear, on a former higlit. au
1 hietlewood, and smne of whom were executed, it ap- opinion from an Hon. and a Learned Gentleman (Mr.
peered that Edwards did instigate them. At present, Brougham), which seemed to (atone the emplov meta
hail r hey nothing more than suspicion with regard to of spies, with the qualification, however, that spies
Edwards? If the case were gone into before a Com- ought not to be made instigntars. But how, be ask-
miner, they would be able to ascertain the degree of eel, could the one be separated from the oder ? .%
I
his culpability. It was also a matter of great import- spy was a wretch, who was paid in eroportion to the
:thee to ascertain from whence came the funds which intelligence which he communicated to his employe' :
Edwards distributed. He tlitl not aceu-e the Minis- I his bread depended upon what information he gave--
iv:3,-16e only spoke to the charges made against FA- upon the number of victims he marked o-it for lame
wards—his only object was to obtain the truth, and for for death; infamous and unprincipled he pursue,
the whole troth.—{clear, hear !) his way, he is sure to make a conspiracy where he
Mr. BANKES thought the motion of the Hon. cannot find one. It was impossible for a person to go
Wither was not founded upon any precedent, nor con- amongst men strongly agitated, without appearing to
formable with any of the analogies of the proceedings enter warmly into their views; there it was necessary
in that Mouse. He had mistaken the constitutional to assume an interest in the common cause—he could
power of the House, if he supposed that it could in- not sit silent—he must speak, and he would speak with
stitute proceedings for individual criminality. The the more violence because he did not feel, and because
law, he was happy to know, was open to every one, jhe would be afraid of detection. He hoped the House
and no sanction of that kind was necessary. As to would entertain on this subject very different opinions
the depositions which were read, they were not sworn to those which were that night promulgated within its
to, and therefore, in their preeenteondition, he looked walls; he hoped they would agree with him—that
upon them as so much waste paper, and would pay no the Government of England might still be carried as
more attention to them than to the most miserable stuff without the infamous aid of si ha and informers—the
that ever tame before him. It was remarkable that vermin that werh ever found amid scenes of rottenness
the lion. Member spoke a great deal of Edwards, but and corruption, but were unknown in a land of liberty
nut one word of any body else.—(llear, hear! and and peace. He hoped the Heuer would agree to the
linel cheers front the Ministerial benches.)--The worthy motion of the Worthy Alderman, so would they pa.:e
I Alderman hail filled a high Magisterirl situation ; .ipate in the sentiments and gratify the feelings of the
he was surprised, therefore, that it never suggested people of England.—(Cheers.)
itself to his judicial acumen and high legal knowledge, Mr. lit TI'EItWOKTH made a statement with r -
thnt all these depositions might by possibility he found specs to a from who had been formerly in his entitle.,
to he the result of a conspiracy against Edwards.- went, and who had been Lein:tinted with the whole of
Were there not other persons from whom danger might the late plot. This man denied that Esk arts partis :-
We apprehended, as well as from Edwards'?—(Hear, pated in that plot so largely as was said.
heart.)—lle del not mean to speak of this person as I Mr. HUME made a few observations in favour et
innocent, but he dial not believe that throe was that I the motion.
imminent danger over the House, which requirad such Mr. W. WYNN declared, that during the number
extraordinary interposition. The Gallant General who of years he had been in that House, he never retail-
seconded the motion reprobated what, he called the Inled any measure having been bronchi forward ou
spy system. For his part, he was decided in the opi. . such extraordinary grounds as the present. fie could
nion,that no Government could maintain itself witliont • not c meeive on what grounds the Worthy Alderman
the use of spies.—(Hear, hear!)—The use of spies was ' could call for a Secret Committee to try a case of
ractised in every time. If a gang of robbers were ; what he called treason, unless it was to gratify pni)l6•
ruing to attack th • Worthy Alderman's house, and curiosity. The fact was, that Edwards gave note/PI-
N one of the gang wren to him p_revionsluandio,itgeocc ka las asottmers Intnistets respecting the eron•
need bins of their Intention, wouTil he stupidly torn., soiracy in which he was engaged, and security Weis
sway anal take no notice of the communication ?ea-I-promise& to him for what he ha-! done. He would
(Hear, hear !)--Wonld it then be contended that less ask then, whether, after that transaction, and after
cam ought to he taken of the public safety ? There a most dangerous conspiracy had been defeeehl
11,
was formerly, in a very celebrathl commonwealth, a i through his means, it was fit that the faith of tiovern-
I Magistrate of high character (i'icern), who thought mint should be broken with this man?—(Hear:)
i
the use of snub means expedient, in order to defeat a Mr. DENMAN considered that to be a most extra-
famous conspiracy (that of Catiline), and to save the ; ordinary doctrine which treated with indulgence-on,
imperial city. , sympathy the most degraded and noxious material* of
Mr. HOBIIOUSE, in rising to support the motion, which the human race was composed ; and he Woke;
i felt it necessary, after what fell from the lion. lien- upon such doctrines as sopping all the foundations on
tleman who just sat down, to give some explanation of . which social intercourse and happiness rested. There
his reasons for voting for a proposition which, accord- was nothing very novel in the present motion ; t r
ing to that Hon. lientleman, was so *blurs!. And, • some few years ago, in consequence of the disturbane. a
in doing so, he confidently trusted that the House :in the North of England, similar motions were nt..tie ;
would extend to him all the indulgence a hich it 1 and it was not considered irregular to call for the a:—
usually gave to young heaters.—(iirar, hear !)-- pointouent of Committees to inquire into those dieter
He could not conceal that he stood in need of even lances, although no legislative proceedings aftereiarcht
more than their usual portion of indulgence. since he ' took place. The question was, who dial furothilt. the
stood under peculiar circumstances, and he appealed 1 late comp rators with money ? Who was it that 'hese.
So their candour to obtain that patience which ! Thistlewood, an I made him an active instrot.otelt f a
no argument of his could excite. Un.!er any cir- i his own destruction ? Ile would ask, if this was a ;,:- -•
cumstances, indeed, he shonld require indulgence , per employment for a spy ; or was it to be a foal itt•s,
when he had to answer the arguments of a Gentleman ; Wry for crime? Ile was far from intending to deal toe
who bad so much experience in the House, and whose to the Ministers that they would authorize a spy to art
character was deservedly so high every where. The .in this rimester-0-Ipar !)—But the m lot they eutpao., -
Hon.lient.stated, asan argument for not going into this . ed a spy, they assured to themselves the certainty of
inquire, that no precedent for such a proceeding exist- spreading mischief, which it was their duty to prevent.
ed. But unless his view of the matter was so very He contended, that his Hon. Friend (Alderman tl't,oi;)
distorted as to disable him from distinguishing be- had acted very-properly in putting the questions whisk
tween what was right anal wrong, this was a case 1 he had put to Thistlewood on the moraing of his ear-
which it was peculiarly incumbent upon a British Par- cution, because it was necessary to ascertain how fat
liament to take into Consideration. The lion. Hen.; Edwards had instigated him in carrying on his plot.
Hannan said that this was a case for the criminal juris- I Ile contended that the Counsel for the prisoners had a
diction, and that the House ought not to meddle with 1 right to have the benefit of the croooexamination of
it. lint, undoubtedly, there were many instances ! Edwards on the late trials; and he was sure the Cowl-
zipere the criminal jurisdiction was meddled with by sal for the prisoners had nut the Smallest doubt of 8.1--a
-a Ai Hoase.—(Hear, hear !)—And when the Hon. Milo- wards haviog actively ?Instigated that to commit stets
her said that the Constitution denied this power to the of treason. He contended, that the whale of this spy
House, because it had not the means of administering i system was inconsistent with a good Uovernibent dud
e
an Math, he would beg leave to remind that lion. lien- ! destructive of all public and private morality. if apsll
tleman that the House had meddled with the criminal ' were to be employed by the Ministers of thsvernment,
jurisdiction, that it had constituted itself a tribunal ; they would be employed by the various public offices.
in a matter where no oath was required. He treed not , The Bank employed spies, for they sent persons to
allude to the parties in that ease.--indeed it was one mince men into the commission of crimes.—(Cries cf
which concerned himself.—(Hear, hear !)—lir would No, no!)—He had opportanities of knowing the fact
nut now inquire whether the precedent was right or at trials in this country. Kith a strung feeling the
wrong; that was not the question, for the Worthy the spy system was carried to an extent which should
Alderman, by his motion, only asked for any inquiry. ! never have bees allowed, he would, if the Wprtby Al-
He was well convinced that such an inquiry would not : dermas pressed tlwilleose to a division, vote with Mina
be refused if the machinations were against the Govern- ' The ATTORNBY-OBMBRAL maintained, id
meet, and that it would be opposed only where they : there was not a tittle- of evidence to show that
were against the people.—(Hear, hear '.)--The Anti wards bad been employed by the thsvereineut ; bd.
night he took his seat in the House, be heard it said . Government had received his isformatimt. which ens-
BM " the people ought to be reduced," and he feared I bled tbssa to defeat one of the most Willie plots that
It 'al suspected that there was some separation of in-; ever itaithiteire la this country. What entuslea woe
..
IMOSSI between the Governors and governed. Kt fthere, be would ask, to tall Edwards as a odtbeso, where.
the that
present a favourable opportaity tier prov.i there was a sullkiencybf other witnesses th heeiblish
firglirt tide was not so—that the Ministers had really . det guilt of the prisoners? Was it pot Moire n
Some sympathy in the feelings of the people. The 1 when Monument and Thistlewood vor prellewilg So.
Mon. Geodesist' proceeded to urge the necessity of the Treasury to be enandued, the laser Wolli° so U.'.
agreeing in the motion i and upon the subject of spies; sunset, and desired him to tell iltse°111•1
/1/1•1114 el •
he denied that the writers of the &orient world all man of the noise of Mine& bad beima(i *I ti) MIn"•
agreed in the •prifeeiple of Cicero. Bat even in the misfortunes ; and when liellesneike lohl %.14•111emIs
mar of Canine, it Aid nut appear that the 4Notrogee sever heard of adwirds, Thi
_,
~
made the pita, Illiktirvi=ouiss) olleeked, that mind that; do PM say as 1 leg mg, we :.
such agrees WOMPhaltP isioperttas. It was N..-'-"(Year, hear!)."—Tisis ISTralliftlile Mit
WRAP bleigkr.
eves a noted saying of Diseridan, •'k Preeps pei staled tot libretti' arse the oldy

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