The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-05-03 00:00:00

p*k.

Lord MILTON and Sir F. BURDETT said a few words,
which were not audible In the Gallery.
Mr. WYN' said that the Sheriff ought to be allowed to
be present, in order that he might know how the evidence
affected him.

Mr. F. LEWIS conceived that he ought certainly to be
present, but the House was not on that mount to be pre-
cluded from the right of examining him.
Mr. WYNN did not deny the right of the House to es-
amine the Sheriff, but he thought he ought not to be called
upon for evidence if allowed to be present during the pro-
ceedings.
Mr. LANiBTON said it would be absurd not to exwair t•

him after the Resolution which the House had come to of

calling him to the Bar.
The Clerk then read the entry on the Journals, dated
April 13, respecting the proceedings in question.
The Chairman next directed the Serjeant at Arms to ca. t
In the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, Benjamin Ri:se%
Esq.. upon which that Gentleman appeared at the Bar.
Examined by Sir JOAN NEWPORT.
What is your name 7—Benjamin Itikey.
You are Clerk of the Crown in Ireland ?—I execute the
ace of Clerk of the Crown.

For how many years have you executed the Q ice of
Clerk of the Crown?—Nearly thirty.
Has witness brought with him any documents by ivh.cli
he ran ascertain the state of the panels of (hand Ju:ies
. . .

in Dublin ?—I have.
Has witness returns of the panels for the years 161 J,
1820, 1821, and 1822?-1 have,except part of the panel
for 1820, which I have not got.
Has nitness examined the state of the panels, and can
he inform the House what number of corporator' were on
them ?-1 can, to the best of my judgment, I examined
them with the list of the Corporation.
Is there any other Grand Juries empanelled hi Ire-
land, besides the Commission Grand Jury?—There is.
What is the duty of the Commission Grand Jury, and
the others?—The duty of the Commission Grand 3 are,
is the only one to which my oftiee is attached ; I attend .
in the Court of King's Bench, and the Grand Jury of that •
Court is the only one for money preseni mews, with the
exception of the presentments made at the Session,'
Grand Jury.
Can the witness state the proportion of Corporator' nn
Ithose Grand Juries?—Aldermen of the City of Dublin
are on the Grand Jury for the County. I never attend the
Sessions Court, and know nothing ot it.
IVho are the other persons besides Aldermen that are
on the Grand Jury ?—Sherilrs' Peer:.
What is meant by Sheriffs' Peers ?—Those who have
served the of of Sheriff, or have been lined fur not
serving.
Are they different from Common Council and the Al-
dermen P-1 always understood so.
How is the Common Council returnel ?—The Guild of
Merchants returns 32, and the other Guilds return ca:lt
a certain number.
Do any of the other Guilds return as large a proportion
as the Guild of Merchants ?—Noue.
Is the election annual ?—No.
Has witness any statement of the umber of Corpora-
tors on the Commission Grand Jury for the years
1819, 18.:0, 1821, and 1822?-1 hare, with the excl.; -
lion of that part of the panel for 1620, which is not turd--
coming.
Can witness state the number of Common Councilmen
and Corporators on the Grand Jury for the year 1!,1'i?
—ln February, 1819, there were nineteen sworn, and Line
on the panel. 'l'l.e two next Commission., there were
none sworn, and none attended. In J nne there were five
sworn, and eighteen not sworn. lo August there ware
eleven on the panel, but none sworn. In December there
were three sworn, and four on the panel. In Feb. 1826,
there was one Common Councilman sworn. (Witn• ss
said here he could not refer to the pahel.) In June there
were two sworn, and eleven on the panel. I n October
there were three sworn, and five on the panel. In Di.
cember there were My-three on the Grand Jury, and six-
teen on the panel.
CHAIRMAN.—Does witness mean to say that there
were three sworn, and sixteen besides on the panel ?
Exactly.—ln February, 1821, there were nine sworn, and
thirteen not sworn ; April, two sworn, and two not ; Joly,
seven sworn, and thirteen not; August, eight sworn, and
thirty-two not; October, eight sworn, and nine not. In
January, 1822, two sworn, and two not; April, two
sworn, and none on the panel ; August, but one Common
Councilman, and be not sworn ; October, five sworn, and
fourteen not. In January, 1823, fourteen sworn, and
thirteen on the panel.
How many did that panel consist of P—Fifty.
Has witness during his experience of thirty years ever
known sii,smalka number as fifty to constitute a panel ?
I have not.
What was the smallest number witness had known pre.
viously to the year 1823 ?—ln February, 1819, the num-
ber was 61; June, 72; October, 95; December, 87;
June, 1820, 71; October, 66; December, 71. February,
1821, 67 ; April, 107; July, 82 ; August, 79; October,
61. January, 1822, 77 ; February, 87 ; April, 68 ; June,
78; August, 85; October, 62.
Witness said that out of twenty-seven Common Coun-
cilmen on the panel for the Commission Grand Jury for
January, 1823, fourteen were sworn on the Grand Jury,
he was now required to state what place did those four-
teen occupy on the panel?—All the Grand Jurors were
taken out of.the fitat twenty-six, whose names stood first
on the panel, three only being absent, and the fourteen
Common Councilmen were among the nineteen that stood
first.
Did the witness know during his experience any casein
which so many of those on the panel answered to their
names in rotation as they were called ?-1 have not known
any such ease.
Witness stated that besides the fourteen sworn on that
Grand Jury there were thirteen more Common C.:lintel linen
on the panel not sworn. Those numbers together made
twenty-seven, which was a majority of the whole panel.
Did witness know of any other case in which the Common
Councilmen composed a majority of the panel ?-1 do not
find any.
By Mr. PLUNKETT.—In August, 1821, what was
the number on the panel:—There were seventy-nine.
How many of them were Common Councilmen?—
Forty.
How then could witness say that he did not know of
any instance in which the Corporators made up more
than half the panel ?
(The answer to this and other questions coirld not be
beard in the gallery, on account ot the situation in which
the witness was placed, and of the low tone in which
he spoke. The shorthand writer's repetition of sow
of them was still less audible.)
By Sir JOHN NEWPORT.—Were the fourteen Caw
mon Councilmen at the bead of the panel, or io what
part of it?—The whole of the Jury answered in same
ston, as the names on the panel were called up to 26; wilk
the exception of three.
By Mr. PLUNKETT.—Ia what order did the Mertes
Common Councilmen answer ?—ln order to answer Mt
question I should have the panel, and I have only marked
down here all that answered.
By Sir JOHN NEWPORT.—Were the three wits
were absent, Common Councilmen or not P—Two of them
were Common Councilmen.
ulrsi
eist. theta
to rsdhienua
riancod
JailujrusreyinisfeoorastnipnlgereriComwmiriiisosuiorassOirslisedJg
over the whole of the panel ?—No. The Grand Jail
panel is called over twice ; the second time the Damsel
called on a fine.
y-sena
How many names are usually called over before tbe
Grand Jury is completed ?—Generally from eight
to one hundred and fire.
tLe Uriod•Jary of last Jan., the lastuse was Ws ;Ks
Be Lord MILTON.—Of the last Grand Jury, that

-wsemree—er--a-
on the panel • in what part of the panel did the last name
of the preceding Jury' stand?—The last name on the
preceding Grand Jury was the eighty-tiftb name on that
panel. •
The CHAIRMAN, on the vegetation of Mr. PLUN-
KETT and of Mr. HUME, desired the witness to state
the lowest number on the panel s vorn on the Jury, and
bow often the %hole panel was called over.
Mr. Secretary PEEL suggested that it would be more
ennveuient that the witness should be ordered after his
exintination to retire and refer to his documents, and
come prepared with his answers ; that course would save
thetime of the House.
Mr. BROUGHAM said be was just about making the
same suggestion. Ile wished to know whether the wit-
ness had the means of letting the Committee know
what place the last cared occupied on the panel, cen-
t railisti ti guis hed front the last on the Grand Jury?-1I
could sometimes tell that, but the panel is sometimes ez.
itsusted.
State in how many cases during your experience the
panel has been exhausted.—(Answer not heard.)
Sir J. NEWPORT moved, agreeably to the suggestion
thrown out, that the witness :night be ordered,on retiring
to examine toe different panels, and be prepared answer
the yeestions that were pnr. This being agreed to, the
Chairman told the witness to refer, after retiring, to the
number of panels exhausted before a Jury was completed,
in order that he might be able to state the same to the
House, and also the number of prrsons called oa or fined;
as nell as he meld a•cerain.
liv Mr. S. RICE.—ls there any other case in the rts
• collection of a itness, in which so large a proportion
of Comuson Councilmen were on the Grand Jury ?
None.
la the case of the panel of 1821, on which the majority
were COM.IIIOII Councilmen, was not that on occasion of
the King's visit to Ire'and?-1 believe it was.
Was any business transacted by that Grand Jury.•
(Answer nut heard.)
By Dr. PHILLIMORE.—At what time of the year
does the Sheriff enter on his office?—At Michaelnsas.
By Mr. SCA RLETT.—Was the panel usually delivered
to the witnese by the High Sheriff or Sub-Sheriff ?—I be-
lieve by the high Sheriff.
By Colonel BARRY.—Was it not usual on the cone
misrioes immediately succeeding an election of Common
Councilmen, to place a gr. e'er number of them than
usual on the Grand Jury panel, with a view to pay them
a compliment ?—The answer to that questiou would apply
ta each third year, because it was only then there was
an election of Common Coueoluten. There was no
election of that sort that I know of in 189%,_
By Mr. PLUN N PAT.—There was an 'fc:lrtion to the
Campion Council in December, 1819, look Id the pane
of teb. 1820, and state the number of Common Council
men on tharpanel ?-1 have not that panel—lt is the
sold, one 1 hare not.
witnsss the means of answering the question
applied to former years, excepting 1819 ?-1 have not.
Can witness give any account *by that particular pa-
eel was missing ?—Yes. 1 can.
By Sir JAME'4 MACINTOSH. —llas the witness any
document equivalent to the panel, to show the number
of Comment Councilmen on the panel of February,
le:20 ?—l'es, I have a document to show the number
of Common Councilmen as far as the Grand Jury goes.
Dues it show the number of Common Councilmen on
the panel?—lt does as far as the names were called be-
fore the Jury was completed.
(Here the witness, by order of the Committee, read the
D3LII, a of anse Common Councilmen )
By Mr. BROWNLOW.—What was the smallest nnm-
bee of Common Councilmen on any panel before October,
1n22 ...:(Answer not beard.)
When did.. Mr. Sheriff horpe make his first return of
Grand Jururs?-1n October, 1822.
Was it not usual to have more than the ordinary num-
ber of Common Councilmen on the Grand Jury panel
immediately after an election of Common Councilmen ?
I am not aware of that.
By Sir JAMES MACINTOSH.—What was the
number of the Common Councilmen on the Grand Jevy
in Feb.. 1820?—One.
By Mr. T. ELLIS.—How many new Common Coun-
cilmen on the Graud Jury of January, 18232-1 can't

say.
Did these Common Councilmen attend there, for the
first time, or did you know them to have attended before i
—(Anasser not heard.)
By Colonel IlitßltY.—ls it not nsaal when import-
ant business comes before the Commission, to have the
Grand Jurors called under the penalty of a fine ?—Yes ;
It is.
Would not that account for the !greater number than
tsual of Common Councilmen being on this Grand
Jury ?—I have never known so many Common Council-
men answer to their names so conscientiously. They ne-
ver appeared to their names in such succession.
By Dlr. S. RICE.--Does the witness know the si-
tuation in life of Mr. J. H. Moore, a gentleman whose
same appears on this Grand Jury?—l do not know his
situation in life.
On what day did you miss the panel of 1820?—On
Friday last.
By a MEMBER.—Where are these panels kept ?
The old documents are kept in a room at the Sessions
Noose in Green-street, and the new at my house.
To what cause do you attribute the loss of these panels?
—To the death of a clerk in the office.
Do I understand the witness that the death of a
clerk in the office is the reason why the panel is lost?
—Yrs.

How many Common Councilmen were on the last pa.
*el for 1820 ?
Mr. F. LEWIS.—To save trouble, I will move that the
panel be ordered to be sent for.
By Lord STANLEY.—Is the witness aware of any re-
markable circumstance attending the panel that Is missing?
—I was not aware of any until Colonel Barry informed me.
Then he is not aware of any of his own knowledge?-
2\o.

By IHr. DENtAN.—Hits the witness any means of re-
cot ering that panel of a copy of it?—No.
Or from the Sherirs office I—l don't know.
I atbk to ask the witness are there any ineeneby which he
could to a certainty procure the panel of 18171—If I were in
Dublin I dare say I could procure it.
Orlf you seat?-1 dere say I could.
And the same for 18431—0 f course.
Aim for 18141—yes.
ly Mr. MARTIN.-1 beg to ask the witnees la be not
suing as Clerk of the Crown for some comities is Ireland?
Yes, for some counties in the Home Circuit.
In these cocottes hes it sot been customary to go over
the lames of twenty-six to form the Grand Jury of twenty-
threef—Yes.
Are you aware that Renames bate been gone Mier In all
easest—Certainty.
Is it lot au object for the Gentlemen of the Courts to
make their appearance at the Assizes?—Yes, as they are al-
aseisaaxiees to be on the Grand Jury.
And yet you have known more than tweety-six names
Laing rose over before the Jury was formed?—Yee, I have.
By Mr. BR IG HT.—Was there any tbin4 irregular or sta-
ysail in the mode of going over the panel before the parties
were sworn in?—lt appeared to me unusual to have more
thee 14 Common Councilmen on the Grand Jury. Unusual
10 have more than half the Grand Jury Common Councilmen,
bet whether it is irregular or not I do not know.
Wiles were the Common Councilmen electedl—About No-
vember.
By Mr. RlllB.-I'oo have stated Mr. Moore to be an
'seat of en Insurance Company I—Yes.
hls Mr. Moore a Common Councilman or cot 1-1 believe'
is.
Was he a member of former Common Councils 2-1 cannot
my.

Vas the viten, ny whether Mr, Moore or his f! 0117 at.