The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-01-18 00:00:00

Till?, STATESMAN.

Act .required that the trustees should appoint none
but able-bodied men, and he would leave to their
own observation to decide how far this was complied
with. He knew that there were many instances in
which those who were too old to earn their bread,
were appointed to the situations-of watchmen, in
order to prevent their becoming a burden to the
parish. These were not the men to secure the lives
and properties of the inhabitants. If the House
agreed with him in the appoketnkent of the Committee
for which he should move, it would be for that Com-
mittee not only to consider the Act of Parliament,
but also the variety of local Acts upon the same
It would be for them to decide whether it was
sub-
ject.advisable to alter the system entirely, or whether it
would be sufficient to enforce the present Act with-
out any innovation. It would be for them to consi-
der what course they would recommend, and there-
fore it was quite unnecessary, indeed it would be un-
becoming in him, to anticipate that by proposing any
arrangement of his own. As far as he had thought upon
the subject, he had no objection to state generally,
that he rather inclined to the notion of enforcing the
present system by adequate provisions, than of hav-
ing recourse to any new Act. It was material, he
thought, for him to state, that when the Legisla-
ture found it necessary to turn their attention to this
subject, they did so in consequence of the variety of
local Acts applicable to each parish, and producing
a confusion which it was of the utmost consequence
Ite remedy : for instance, the parish of Pancras was
I divided into seven districts, each of which had its
lown local Acts. The interests of the parties thus
created, should be discussed and reconciled as well
las possible with the new arrangement; and this was
I one of the principal reasons which induced him to,
prefer the appointment of a Committee, to any other
mode of proceeding. The House had adopted the
same course in the year 1774, and it was his inter!,
tion, in the present case, to propose those Gentle-'
men to be on the Committee, who were most inter-
ested, as well as most likely to be acquainted with
the nature of the different interests that would be
affected by the change. lie should therefore move,
if the house agreed to the appointment of the Com-
mittee, that the Members for London, Westminster,
Middlesex, and Surrey, should be members of the
same. lie concluded with moving that a Select
Committee should be appointed for the purpose of
considering the state of the nightly watch in the me-
i tropolis.
I Sir S. ROMILLY said he was surprised at the mo-
I tion of his Right Hon. Friend. No one, he was
persuaded, who was acquainted with what had
I passed, and with the alarm and terror which had
spread through the metropolis, but must have ex-
pected that some more extensive measure would have
been resorted to than that now under consideration.
He should think, that a Committee appointed upon
such an occasion, would find it necessary to in-
I quire, not only into the state of the nightly watch,
but into the causes of the increase of felonies and
crimes ; and he was sure, that a comprehensive view
of this kind, would be more calculated to produce
the desired effect, than the contracted course re-
commended. He had no other means than were
common to every body of informing himself upon
the different facts-ronwerted with this question; but
it was evident, that crimes had greatly increased in
number and atrocity. It appeared from the yearly
returns, that there was a gradual increase in this re-
spect, for the last five or six years. Ile (lid not ad-
vert to the committals at Quarter Sessions, but to the
whole number of those at the Old Bailey, and
lie was sure the House would be surprised at
their extent. In Ibo 6, 899 persons were convicted
at the Old Bailey. In 1807, 1017. In 1808, 1110.
In 1809, 1314. In 1810, 1.1'24 ; so that in
the last five years, the number of committals had
increased from 899 to 1421; and this in a state
of war. It was certain that fewer offences were
committed in time of war than in time of peace; for
many of those bold and daring characters were em-
barked in the service of their country, and rendered
useful against her enemies, instead of becoming dan-
gerous at home. Among all the calamities that at-
tended a state of war, there was still one advantage
to be derived from it, that it afforded greater domes-
tic security in the way he had already described.—
But in the case of this country of late, so far from
being able to calculate on this solitary advantage,
we beheld crimes increasing, and domestic security
becoming more precarious. The country should
know what was the cause of this. He would state
to the House some of the causes which appeared na-
tural to him, for the purpose of chewing the necessity
of a more extensive measure. He thought it must
appear that the system of punishment, so long, and
(without offence to any individual) he would say, so
obstinately persevered in, had in themselves the ef-
fect of encouraging the number of crimes. He disl
not allude here to the frequency of capital punish-
meats, but to the punishments less than death, and
above all, to promiscuous imprisonments. In come-
, quence of that practice, it was known, that boys,
convicted of offences, were put into the same prisons
with hardened wretches ; from thence they could de-
rive nothing but the basest examples. Many were
, condemned to the hulks, where there were instances
' of the most atrocious crimes7 where they mingled withl
!the worst of criminals, and from thence, after a cer-1
tain period, they were dismissed) without any sort of
provision, leaving those colleges of infamys to exer-
ace upon society those arts and practices in which
they were instructed. He believed, taking his au-
thority undoubtedly from the common source of in-
formation, that many persons were lately discharged
from the hulks, and he thought that the great atro-
cities lately committed, might in part be ascribed
to that cause ; some of them, it was generally
understood, were released in consequence of the
expiration of the term of their imprisonment;
others had obtained their release by improper
means, and others had escaped. When those wretches
were discharged without any provision being made
for them, without any means of improvement
being afforded, without even the advantage of re-
ligious instruction, without trades, and without
character, they must proceed to the perpetration of
crimes. One would think that what had passed for a
considerable time in this country, ought to haveshown
the necessity of a change of system. It was unne-
cessary now to enlarge upon a subject of which no-
tice had been already given, but be believed it.would
be found, that the system of police established,

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tended materially to increase the commission of
•rimes. If the House had an objection to go into
the more large inquiry, it certainly would he neces-
sary to consider the state of the police. He object-
ed to the principle of giving rewards to the Police
for the detection of offenders of a certain descrip-
tion ; for when he considered that the prevention of
crimes depended on the Police alone, that they alone
knew what persons were liable to suspicion, he must
infer, that the offering of rewards must produce the
greatest evil, by making it their interest to permit
crimes of that atrocious description, for the detec-
tion of which rewards were given. By the 4th and
sth of William and Mary, and the 7th of queen
Anne, 401. was offered for the detection of high-
•way robbery. He did not wish to speak disrespect-
fully of a useful body of men, but unless they acted
upon refined moral principles', their inclination must
be to ,permit the act to take place, that they
might be entitled to the recompence. He was in-
formed that no man had any chance of obtaining the
property he had lost, until he offered a reward for
its recovery. It resembled a practice adopted in
some offices of giving expedition money, which was
always productive of delay, for delay must have been
the practice of the office, to make it worth while to
pay the Police Officers for dispatch. The mischief of
this was, that when a man lost property, he must
be satisfied to lose more, in order to quicken the
ministers of justice. A Bill had been introduced into
that House in the year 1785, containing some good
provisions, and some objectionable.—Among others,
it proposed the abolishing of rewards altogether ; but
whether rewards ought to be abolished altogether
or not) Police Officers ought not to get them. The
utility of rewards consisted in their tendency to ob-
tain information from accessories after the fact, but
the Police Officers were not in this situation when

they discharged their duty. He understood that
when persons went to the Police Offices and de-
scribed an individual by whom they were robbed, it
was no uncommon thing to find that the Officers
knew hint immediately, that they knew his nanr,
and the houses he frequented. He was not cer-
tain whether those circumstances were facts, but
they were generally believe.l, and he rather thought
were well founded. It was right to institute in-
quiry, when they considered the state of the metro-
polis, when they considered the great expence of the
Police, and the vote of that day, and when, in ad-
dition to this, they reflected that crimes had accumu-
lated, that acts were committed, which shook the
public security, and the tranquillity of private fami-
lies.: when they reflected that it was due from every
Government to its subjects, to guard their property
and their persons, they must see the necessity of
takiag an enlarged and comprehensive view. But
his Right lion. Friend had said, that such crimes as
we htd lately heard of, were frequently committed
in otter countries. lie would ask where those coins-
tries were ? He had never heard or read of such.—
As to Paris, while he resided there, he had never
heard of such atrocities ; nor did he know to
what climate his Right Honourable Friend could !
refer him for a consolatory comparison in this
respect. He knew of none where crimes were
committed with such insolence and presumption as
here. Ills Right Honourable Friend had spoken ;
of nightly watch, but where was the daily watch ?
—Did they not hear continually of robberies con.
stantly committed in the day time, and where was
the remedy for this ? Was it in regulating the
nightly watch ? If the country was left in such a
situation, the worst consequences were to be appre-
hended. They should inquire not only into the state
of the watch, but into the state of the police, and the
state of crimes. A number of causes would be found
to concur in multiplying the number of the last. The
tolerating of improper houses, suffering the streets to
be infested, as they sometimes were, and among
others, he could not help enumerating the continu-
ance of Lotteries. Plow the supply of 500,0001.
which he believed was the only produce of this per-
uicious measure, could be supposed to justify its
continuance, he was unable to conjecture ; but
without wishing to introduce politics into sack a
subject as this, he must observe, that in • his opinion
it was not what it produced, but the number of Com-
missiotterships which it supported, that tended to
protract its existence.
Mr. W. t.INIITII said, that he could not refrain '
from making a few observations on the present im-
portant subject, although he could not hope to add
any weight to the arguments so ably urged by his
lion. and Learned Friend. He could not help regret-
ing, however, that his lion. and Learned Friend had
sat down, without proposing an Amendment, for
the purpose of extending the objects to which the
Committee were to direct the attention, and he
trusted that such an amendment would yet be pro-
posed. There were one or two circumstances which
proved the absolute necessity of such an extension
of object. In the first place, if the House attended
to the nature of those most horrible and barbarous
outrages which for two months had kept the metro-
polis in a perpetual alarm, and more particularly
the atrocious murder of Mr. Mart's family (the
authors of which had never yet been discovered), it
would be evident, that had the nightly watch of the
metropolis been in the best possible state, those out-
rages and that murder could not have been prevented.
They originated in a set of villains about the town,
whose existence was not imputable to any deficiency
in the nightly watch. In the second place, if the
nightly watch could operate upon them, of what na-
ture would be that operation ? Unless some change
could be produced in *the disposition of those vil-
lains, the only effect that could, by possibility, be
occasioned would be to drive them out of the
metropolis into the environs. The surrounding
villages would be deluged with- depredators, against
whom they would have no protection. He con-
fessed that he had long been extremely' scandalised
(if he might use that term) by the number of ac-
counts which had reached him of the familiarity
that existed between the officers of the police
and the disturbers of the public peace.—
This familiar intercourse was a matter of general
notoriety, and surely it must, in a variety of ways,
have a most deteriorating effect on the public morals.
It must operate on the thieves themselves, who could
not consider themselves so sufficiently as they might,
the objects of detestation, when they knew they
could sit and enjoy themselves in their favourite pub-
lic-houses until some one should be called out whose

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measure of guilt was full. It must also operate on
the officers of the police, who could not possibly en-
tertain the proper feeling with which criminals ought
to be regarded by them, while they continued to •it
down at the same table with them, and to drink with
them as associates until the very moment when they
pounced upon their prey. If he gave to this state-
' ment too high a colouring (which he really believed
he did not), if the fact were even incomparably less
strong, it would nevertheless deserve animadversion

and demand correction. Ile was, however, far from
wishing that the subject of the nightly watch should
be omitted from the consideration of the Commit tee.

lie thought it extremely deserving of notice, andhe
was persuadA, that if the nightly watch were put on

a better footing, much good would insult.

ob-

jection, 'therefore, to the motion was not, that it was
wrong, but that it stopped incomparably &tort of the

object which it was desirable to attain. It was well
known, that in one parish of the Metropolis, inha-
bited principally by the lower classes, great good

. . ,
had hem aected. By parochial exertions tending
to improve the nightly watch, the parish of Christ's
Church, Spitalfields, instead of the scene of riot,
uproar, and crime, which it formerly presented, had
become almost proverbial for its extreme good ord
and regularity. If similar regulations were ad-ptel
at the West End of the town, a great deal would

certainly be done towards providing for the safety
and comfort of all, and towards improving the mo-
rality of the lower classes. Muck praise was in his
opinion doe to the worthy and respectable indivi-
duals who had taken this matter in hand and he

should be very happy to hear that a similar public
spirit pervaded the whole metropolis. He concluded
by repeating his entire approbation of every thing
that had been said by his lion. and Learnei Friend,
and his hope that an amendment would be intro-
duced to the motion, extending the power of the
Committee to an inquiry into the State of the Police)
as well as of the Nightly Watch.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
could not doubt, that under all the circumstances of
the case, the House would have no hesi ;eion to
agree to the motion of his Right lion. Friend ; for
having paid every attention to the arguments of
the too lion. Members who had spoken on the op-
posite side, he found that those arguments were
directed not against the proposit t against is
limited nature. It must, however, be considered,
that the motion of his lion. Friend related to a sub-
ject which could not be passed over in a morning or
two, and which therefore would not bear to be
loaded with all the theoretical coes:deettions which
his Hon. and Learned Friend on the opposite side
had suggested. Indeed, the subject to which the
Committee would have to direct their especial atten-
tion, was one calculated to engage it very seriously.
Their object would be to provide a practical remedy
for a practical evil. His Hon. and Learned Friend
might cei tainly differ from his Right lion. Friend,
with respect to the value of the remedy, but he was
sure that the Hon. Gentleman could not do so,
after having enlarged so much oe the advantages in a
particular district, resulting from the adoption of
measures similar to those recommended by his Hun.
Friend. For what was the proposition of his Right
Hon. Friend, but that a Committee of the House of
Commons should consider the propriety of enforcing
in all the parishes of the metropolis, regulations, front
which so much good had resulted in the parish de-
scribed by the Hon. Gent.? Certainly there was one
qualification of the Hon. Gent.'s opi 1l m on this sub-
ject which was extremely dishearten;nl. The exist in;
evil was great, and was felt locally; "but," said the
lion. Gentleman, " take care how you apply a re-
medy, for if you cure the evil in the metropolis, you
will drive it out in the neighbourhood." Now, for his
part, he thought it advisable to cure the evil, if pos-
sible, where it (lid exist. It uasto b lamented if it
should go elsewhere, but if so, with r it should be
followed, and there crushed too. The lion. Gentle-
man in the same breath in which he described the
happy influence which the regulations in Spitalfields
had there occasioned, deprecated the adoption of
the regulations proposed by his Right Hon. Friend,
lest, although advantageous to themselves, they might
prove inconvenient to the neighbouring parishes.—
The fact was, that the question before the House in-
volved the interests, not of the metropolis alone,
but of all the adjacent parts. Such an extensive sub-
ject was calculated to produce much discussion, and
therefore it was probable that the inquiry would nut
be terminated so soon as was anticipated by his Ho-
nourable and Learned Friend. His Honourable and
Learned Friend had touched on the nature of punish-
ments, and had ascribed a great part of the moral de-
pravity of the times to the particular mode of con-
finement to which prisoners were subjected ; but he
apprehended this was an inquiry which his Honourable
and Learned Fliend did not wish should be referred
to the Committee now proposed. It certainly was
not desirable to engraft the business of a Committee
on Penitentiary Houses, upon the business of a Com-
mittee appointed for another purpose. There had al-
ready been a Committee on that subject ; a report
had been made by it, and notice given of a measure
to be proposed arising out of that report. Whether
it might or might not be expedient to revive the Com-
mittee to which he tad alluded, was a question by
itself ; but he was persuaded that the House would
not accelerate the acquisition of the benefits'so much
needed at the present moment, by complicating the
objects to which the attention of the Committee
moved for by his Right lion. Friend was to be direct-
ed. His lion. and Learned Friend had asked, wee-
dier it was right to continue the practice of grante,:
high rewards for the apprehension of culprits 01 a
certain class? This was a grave subject for delibe-
rate discussion. It ought not to be lightly concluded
that these rewards were disserviceable. It might hi!
that they were so : but this was by no means coronn
It might be true that the strength of the stimulus
which high rewards offered on the detection of great
offenders, occasioned operating inversely on the de•
tection of petty offenders. It might, however, be
true, that instead of abolishing rewards altogether.
it would be wise to extend them to the detection t f
petty offences, in order that petty offenders might le
stopped in their career, and not allowed to proceid
to the commission of enormous crimes. On all these
subjects a variety of opinions must naturally exist; le t
he could by nte means allow that the Committee pee
posed by his Right Honourable Friend could be
well calculated to discuss those opinions es one ye-

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