The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-01-28 00:00:00

_ .

:-.STATESMAN.

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.ia
he not consider himself ill-treated by the adoption of ,the subject, and he should follow his example ;
such unnecessary and suspicious arrangements ? But at the same time he should observe, upon one or
was there any advantage likely to accrue to his Mae two cases, in which he hoped he should not be ac-
jolty from it ?-Assuming the fact that his Majesty cured of entertaining any narrow or mean views.
did require a Lord of the Bed-chamber, a Groom of —He was disposed to think, that making pro-
-the Stole„and the Equerrfes fornwily in attendance, per allowances for the alteration in the value of
what was there to prevent the Queen from ask- money, the exponces in various departments of the
tng those OffiCirs from the Prince agent ? —Could Civil List wonyi not be found to have exceeded that
*
any one cuppOse that 'ha would refuse them .7 Was of the best times of our history ; but when, in
them any difficulty .• In aee Majesty's demanding 1801, they were called upon to vote an excess of
ilhic altindance of those servants who were known 101,0001
he would venture to state, that if there was
to be most in the favour or his° Majesty ?—l'he not such a fund as the Droits of Admiralty, the ex-
Queen had the whole management of the Household cess would not have taken place : Ministers
fee the last yeir, but where was the advautegt of would have economised better. This was enough to
that ? what was the fact/ Up to July last, a few prove the impolicy and the improvidence of not ad-
Lords in waiting, a few Equerries, lac. were deemed bering to the custom of our ancestors, by limitingthe ,
necessary, but since that period the opinions of the !amount of the Civil List, without admitting the sup.;
Physicians went entirely to shew that they were no j ply of any contingent funds. He made no charge!
longer wanting. But where, he would ask, was ; against any one, for the practice had obtained in all
the necessity for a separate Court? ['fear, hear!]. administrations, in that of Mr. Pitt, in that of Lord j
For a Court not responsible; for a Court whose ex-IGrenville, and in that of his Right lion. Friend (the
peaces were not cognizable by the Treasury ;, aadiChancellor of the Exchequer); but that was no
was not such a'Court created by this Bill ? By,it the 1 reason why it should be permitted, now that it !
sum of 110,0001 was put under the controal of the I was brought before the House.—With respect
Queen. Four Lords of the Bed-chamber were granf- to the Droits of Admiralty, some persons con- .
ed to her, a Groom of the Stole, and, altogether, 11'1 tended, that they belonged to his Majesty, upon ,
officers weve at her disposal for the maintenance of the same grounds that all hisother property did; but, ;
the dignity of the King. It ought to be recollected, even if that were the case, itfurnished no reason why 1
in the mean time, that under the former arrange- , they should not be regulated by Parliament. He j
ment, when his Majesty was, happily enabled to , conceived that, even if his Majesty were in perfect ;
perform the duties of a Monarch, ueea's esta. ; health, It would be competent to them to debate upon!
; blishment reflected a spleedout on t f the King; all his revenues. If not, they had taken an en war. I,
to
. short, the operation of each was reciprocal ; but, rentable liberty indeed, in voting for Mr. Burkehil
ander the arrangement now proposed, the Queen's Bill. They had also taken a great liberty in regn.l
Establishment was separated from that of the Prince latirg the amount of Pensions to be granted out of ;
Regent. He had no hesitation to call it a different the Scotch Hereditary Revenue. If it was said, that 1
Court ; for, with all the differettt Officers included in this competency was restricted to emergencies only,
the Bill, with the Pages of the back stairs and the t e he would answer, that this emergency had now ,
Pages of the front stairs, it was utterly impossible occurred, so that the only question was, whether it
to consider it in any other point of view. ~if this , became them to take a narrow and limited view or a
was not a separate Court, he would wish to know ' large one. There was great force in what the Right I
what was. iris objections to such a system were lion. Gentleman who spoke last had said, as to the
strong in every view of it :—for, supposing the Prince power and authority granted to the Queen. It was ,
and that Court to pull together, it would operate es known that there were six persons under her in-'
agreat increase of the influence of the Crown. The • !(Hence in the House of Peers, and four in the House ,
Prince would of necessity supply all those places for Commons, and he thought it a necessary Step to pro.
himself which were already tilled for his Majesty.— vide, that those Gentlemen who were appointed ,
Supposing, on the other ham!, that political differ- to the different offices described in the Bill, should
enoes should arise, and he was sure no others could not have seats in Parliament. The importance of
I (ere!) that supposition was highly int cobable), to settling a specific sum for the Civil List, was great
what a situation would the Prince be reduced: with a in point of economy, and if they legislated with-
Court in oppnsition.—[Henr, hear, hearn—The out a view to it, they would not do their duty.—
only
ground that he could see for all this vas, a Much more might he said on the subject of disburse-
wish
for continuing the system of the last year, a i merits, but it was disagreeable. He should only men- ;
system of distrust. 'He was warranted in calling it tion one or two instances which would show the ;
a system of distrust'; for it was evident, though his mischief of departing from the principle to which he
Royal Highness was not in a situation to speak his had alluded. One instance was, that of Sir Sidney ,
mind, except through the medium of Mtaisters, that Smith, to whom the public were indebted as much as
he thought so. , The object of the Bill was to to any man, but they would find that in the year
make her Majesty a substantive and separate cha- 1810, seven thousand pounds were granted to him for
racter, and to invest her Majesty wits a power services performed twelve years preceding. He knew
which he thought she ought not to have.--[Hear!]— that his merits were great, and that the good he had
He was sure that if her Majesty were present to hear done, by negotiating with the French in Egypt, was
him she would think the better of him for this decla- I eminently great • but if the Civil List was limited,
ration; she could have no wish for tee creation of this would not ;eve happened; nay, his Right Hon.
such a power, but there were others, he thought, Friend himself was so convinced of the necessity of
who might wish it in the present uncertain state of such limitation in future, that he had brought in a
things. The Queen could not wish for such a rein- Bill to edect It, which, however, would not have so
laden as was recommended, and it was impossible good at' effect, as if a limited sum was granted to the
that his Royal Highness the Prince Reemt should, Administration, for which it should be accountable.
Tor his opinion was expressed to the coetrar:.. The He concluded with expressing a hope, that the Bill
Bill was intended to hand over the Monarcny into would be so extentled as to embrace the different ob-
the hands of the Prince of Wales, bet was it a pro- jects to which he had called their attention.
per one for that purpose? If he were asked here in Mr. MATTHEW MONTAGU, in explanation,
what manner would he provide for the rust dy of said, that, in point of fact, Sig Sidney Smith had had
his Majesty's person, or to whom would he entrust but a small part of a sum which he paid out of his
it? undoubtedly, he would Wins' it to her who own pocket for the service of the country. It ought
could have no ether feeling, and scat. ely any other I not to be believed that the grant alluded to by his
duty, than to attend to his wants and wishes. He lion. Friend was given as a remunetation or reward,,
wound entrust it to the Qvaen ; but at me scme time for the public were yet indebted to him for convey-
nett he adopted this siap, he would have a sum ; iug the Court of Lisbon to the Brazils. He thought
granted in the Civil List to the erittce Regent for the ; it but fair that this noble and generous person should ,
Miorprse of meeting the necessary provisions for his ! have the advantage of an explanation on this subject,
Majesty.. These who recommended a contrary i that it might be seen there was nothing like a surrep-
course acted from suspicion, and recommended a titious grant connected with his name.
course improper at all times, but more particularly 1 Mr. GEORGE JOHNSTONE said, he did not
,so after the experience of the last it years. He would ' state that the sum granted to Sir Sidney Smith was
ask, could any son behave with more filial and dutiful out of the Droits of Admiralty, but out of the fund
consideration ror a parent, could any son have ac- ,of Extraordinary Disbursements. Ile found that the
quitted himself better or more feelingly ? then he : claim was of twelve years standing, and concluded if
would say this Bill ought not to pass. The up-Ithat claim were just, that Government must be wrong
shot of the whole was, that some general regulation in withholding it. •
ought to be come to, though nothing could be more! Mr. MATTHEW MONTAGU assured his Hon.
improper than that which formed the subject of dis- : Friend that he had stated the fact correctly, and that
cussion. If it was said that the undertaking of a so far from that gallant Officer being repaid, part of
different one would drive them on the period when his pay as Captelo was withheld, while absent on ano-
the restrictions would of course expire, he would tber service.
answer, that if ever there was a Bill which ought ; Sir THOMAS TURTON said, he should not ob-
not to be brought forward before the restrictions : ject to the principle of the Bill from delicacy, as it
were removed, he would say that was the one. It must was intended to make provision for his Majesty in
be' obvious, that any concession would come with his present calamitous situation. There were items)
.
greater grace from his Royal Highness whey he was in the accounts upon kite table which might perhaps ;
entirely free, than white it could bear the appearance i tender, the grant of the 70,0001. enaeceiteary._ /lel
of a sort Of bargain to get rid of the restrictions.-Ishould not enter into those items specifically himself, I
Did any body think that any thing improper could ; but he hoped the House would not go into a Com- j
take place on the part of the Prince in the course of ! mittee without appointingaCommittee above stairs for f
one fortnight? It would be satisfactory to the coun- I the purpofe of investigating them. On the subject of
try, that a proper confidence should be reposed in extraordinary disbursements, he dwelt particularly on
the Prince Regent, and that proper means should bel those which came under the head of Diplomacy, in I
taken for placing him with sufficient dignity on the ' which there was an excess, since the year 1804, of
throne. The Parliament was itself responsible for ninety-six thousand pounds. He alluded also to the
the manner in which that was performed, and was mission of the Margin Wellesly to Spain, for which',
bound to take care that he should be freed from any there was a grant of 16,0001. He did not say that I
incumbrances which could, in the slightest manner, these grants were wrong, but he wished to know that
interfere with the splendour of the monarchy. He they were not, and on that account he was anxionh
had confined himself in what he had said to the prin. for the appointment of a Committee. The ground
ciple of the Bill. If he were to act merely from his on which he opposed the Speaker's leaving the Chair,
own opinions, be would oppose the Speaker's kw- was coupled with this intention. The papers on the
Jug the Chair altogether, in order to get rid of the table did not afford sttfficient materials for judging,'
Bill ; but lest he should subject himself to miscon. but if they were to add a single shilling to the bur-
ception or misrepresentation on a subject of that dens of the people, they should examine the details
kind, he opposed it conditionally, with a view to the which constituted the foundation of the claims. He
future appointment of a Committee for the purpose was glad that they were met to settle, he hoped deft-
of considering the various points connected with the nitively, an arrangement on those subjects, and ea-
establishment of the Royal Family. I pressed his approbation of that clause in the Bill.l
Mr. GEORGE JOHNSTONE said he was of which provided, that whenever the Minister was
opinion, that they would not discharge their duty to obliged to eacrease the Civil List, he should come to
the public if they agreed to the arrangement in the' Parliament. -
manner proposed by the Bill, and did not provide Mr. WHITBREAD said/ that there could be no
for the independence of the Prince Regent by an treetionlut that the claims of Sir Sidney Smith de.
adequate Civil List. They were also bound to take I, *wed the highest regard, and that his services were
those wholesome: precautions recommended
Constitution for securing responsibility in thesapen
by the ,I keyind all miss which It was in his power to be.
diture. 'The Right Honourable Gentleman Wise.)
satodWfsip reallSeqfruallocayioxviez
uebutioituraappeable
Geredi;iftwownrom whatto
spoke last, . had Dot entered into the 'details of night, that jhe Ileitis bail au imperious duty to dis- !

IPM,4•0••



charge with respect to that gallant 0 ficer ; it owed
to the Hero of Acre (whose name ied 'meted ne
epithet) an opportunity to explaio the I. ern to which
wens hat
reward,
itahicqhuwesotulown
hwiliseitiatienirehwisasseravaliceesilm:erit rite‘tl
the
be careed, were P put, by acclamatin'e; bit it wa
a debt due to him to allow him, before a Committee
of the House, to justify or explein,that claim which
hlard
Arbuthnot),
W( w‘lei tli beri e ia7) h
appeared in the decumeats produced. Not less was
(r.
explanation due to the lion. Gentleman sitting next
to
he
Chancellorfoi of
whom
the Exchequerhe
much privateregard, than it was to iir Arthur Paget
and Marquis Wellesley, whose names were likewise
inserted. Why some of those items ead remained
so long on the Civil Lict, and why debts so long
due had not
.been before iemitherat 'd, was an en.
quiry, a reply to which the public had a right to de-
mend: they **a a right to know, in the first trice,
whether the sums stated to have been disceerged, were
in reality paid ; end whether in the second OtteP h •ng
so paid, they were due for services performed or debts
incurred. What was the fact with regard to Marquis
Wellesley ? After his Lordship had received his
ap.
pointmeut on a mission to Spain, he lingered several
months in this country under circumstances peculiarly
suspicious, every expence was gone to suited to the
dignity of an Ambassador from Great Britain; and yet
when thefaccounteunder the Civil List were produced,
no less alum than 16,0001. was charged in addition to
the alionstalready incurred [hear, Rear, hear!]. Ile
was (barging nothing whist any individuals; no doubt
upon investigition 't would turn out that the payments
had been properly and necessarily made, but the coon.
try, the House, and the individuals themselves de-
manded, that, before a Committee, the fullest expla.
nation should be given. Before he could suffer the
Speaker to quit the chair, for the purpose of going
into a Committee on the Bill new depending, he
required the Chancellor of the Exchequer to assign
some reasons, if any such existed, why the examine,
tion required should not be made. Hitherto he had
sat in perfect silence, not condescending to make
any reply, and the House was required, hood.
winked and blindfold, to declare by this Bill that
the excess of 124,0001. ought to be incurred.
The last enactment scarcely contemplated the pos-
sibility of such an increase, but it provided, that
if it should ever occur, application was to he made to
Parliament. Had that application ever been made?
No; and the reason was obvious; Ministers had had
recourse toes contingent fund, out of welch they dis.
charged tee arrears, of which contingent fund Par-
liament had not, at the time when the fotmer Bill
passed, the remotest conception. Woeld it at that
time have been believed, that the arrear would
amount, during nine years, to the enormous sum,
annually, of 121,0001.? flow did it come out that
such was the fact ? Not hi any regular official war,
but by a side wind when the present Bill was brought
forward. [IL ar, hear!] Parliament now, with-
out the least information, was called to vote thst
this arrear of 124,0001. was absolutely necessary ;
and the House would remember, that if it did not
amount to that sum, legislative interferenee was unne.
cessary—Ministers insisted that it must be incurred,
but no provision was made for it : hitherto the Droits
of Admiralty, Escheats of the Crown, and Proceeds
of the Duchy of Lancaster had paid it; but bow
could the country be at all certain that it would he
able to do so in future ? They were sew insisting
I that a new debt must inevitably be incurred, and jet
not the slightest hint had been given of any provi.
siou for its payment. Some Hon. Members felt a
reluctance in voting against the Bill, because the prin-
ciple of it was, they said, to provide for the care of
his Majesty's person. He denied that such was the
principle—[Hear, hear !]—it was the title of the Bill
it was true, but toe title and the contents were as much
at variance as the two sides of the House. If he were
asked, whether there was any necessity for the mea-
sure, for the purpose of providing fitly for the mike-
ed Sovereign, undoubtedly he should reply •direfelf
in the negative. Were the anxiety and s >fete 'of
the Prince Regent not to be confided in ?-1)14r,
mar!] If he were fit to assume the reins of ;eve
verument, surely it would not be denied that ie as
competent to the care of his father. If ineetu he
were asked, what the real principle of the Bill were,
be should say that it was a Bill to create and sup-
port a separate influence—[Hear, hear, hear !]--
which might be employed in a manner insulting
to the Regent, ane injurious to the country—
but upon this his Right Honourable Friend (Mr.
Tierney) had dwelt with se much ability, and had
placed the sebjeet in so strong and clear a light,
that he could scarcely add a wood without wettest'.
ins what had been said. It was truly observed,
that if the two Courts that would be thus esta-
blished, drew together, the i .flunice would be oa
great ; and if they drew in opposite directions, the
public business would be menially impeded. Ills
Royol-Higheow weesonfortimatelf new- ' tithe-
tion lis which he could not speak for himself, but
only through his Ministers. In the last Session of
Parliament he had not laboured under the same mie
fortune, and then he complained that the restrictions
imposed upon him were extremely galling, for he
would gladly have accepted those offices of kindness
for a beloved parent, which, as a son, it was his
duty to perform. Now, indeed,- the Prince was
compelled to silence, and his Ministers, who alone
were his organs, maintained a total silence ; but he
(Mr. Whitbread) could not doubt that if before the
restrictions under which he was eilacsd, were irk-
some, after the experience that had been had of
his :Royal Highness's conduct, they would Le
doubly oppressive.—[Hear, herb., hear 11—Where,
he enquired, was the necessity of all this ma-
chinery ? Why were the claims to be imposed so un-
necessarily numerous ? Why, if the Regent were in
want of advances, did not his Ministers advise his
Royal Highness to send a message to the House
whlch might disclose the most reasonable grounds for
making a liberal grant? It did not seem, however,
to be the fashion with the Right Honourable Gentle-
men to offer any advice to the Prince which should
lead to such an official communication, but Parlia-
ment was called upon instantur, without a single
reason being assigned, to pass a cote for 100,0001.
Ought the House to take it for granted, on the word
an
of a Minister, that it woold not be misapplied.,d
how was it to be known how limey yews this are
putty of '70,000i. was to be paid before the debts of,
the Prince of Wales were eatingaished The moues

~'

,

:etilto:
ittha‘tvgaasllannott Onofiwcera;
qitneoswtledon
re (whose name treated no
unity to espial.) the tern to w rich
e merited the reefed, Which would
put, by acclamatine; bet it was
to allow him, before a Committee
piggy or explein,thet claim which
scumeats produced. Not less was
) the lion. Gentleman sitting next
of the Exchequer (we believe Mr,
whom he (Mr. Weitbrea.l) had
rd, than it was to iir Arthur Paget
leaky, whose names were likewise
ome of those items had remained
ivil fist, and why debts so long
before remufterat was an en.
which the public had a right to de.
right to know, in the brit trice,
stated to have been discenrged, were
rd whether in the second h •
place
being
due for services performed or debts
was the fact with regard to Marquis
r his Lordship had received his ap.
nission to Spain, he lingered several
ntry under circumstances peculiarly
expence was gone to suited to the
fssador from Great Britain; and yet
under the Civil List were produced,
16,0001. was charged in addition to
y incurred [hear, Rear, hear!]. He
ng savviest any individuals; no doubt
't, would turn out that the payments
and necessarily made, but the coun.
and the individuals themselves de.
fore a Committee, the fullest expla.
given. Before he could suffer the
le chair, for the purpose of going
s on the Bill new depending, he
icellor of the Exchequer to assigu
ny such existed, why the examine.
uld not be made. Hitherto he had
ence not condescending to make
the House was required, hood.
(fold, to declare by this Bill that
124,0001. ought to be incurred.
ent scarcely contemplated the pos.
an increase, but it provided, that
recur, application was to he made to
d that application ever been made?
ton was obvious; Ministers had had
ingent fund, out of wi.ich they dis.
rs, of which contingent fund Par.
at the time when the former Bill
test conception. Woeld it at that
believed, that the arrear would
nine years, to the enormous sum,
1,000 I.? How did it come out that
? Not in any regular official way,
when the present Bill was brought
', hear !] Parliament now, with.
irmation, was called to vote that
4,0001. was absolutely necessary ;
ould remember, that if it did not
m, legislative interferenee was wine.
TS insisted that it most be incurred,
was made for it : hitherto the Droits
'cheats of the Crown, and Proceeds
f Lancaster had paid it; but bow
be at all certain that it would he
future ? They were new insisting
nust inevitably be incurred, and }et
hint had been given of any provi.
,ent. Some Hon. Members felt a
ing against the Bill, because the prin.
hey said, to provide for the care of
irson. He denied that such was the
r, hear !]—it was the title of the Bill
0 title and the contents were as much
two sides of the House. If he were
here was any necessity for the mea-
pose of providing fitly for the millet-
idoubtedly he should reply •direcily
Were the anxiety and s of
at not to be confided in ?—f !! err,
were fit to assume the reins of ;4:
it would not be denied the as
e care of his father. If intieru he
t the real principle of the Bill were,
tat it was a Bill to create and sup.
influence—[Hear, hear, hear !]—
employed in a manner insulting
an:i injurious to the country—
is Right Honourable Friend (Mr.
elt with sit much ability, and had
et in so strong and clear a light,
rcely add a weed without weaken.
een said. It was truly observed,
Courts that would be thus esta-
gether, the i .flueoce would be oo
sy drew in opposite directions, the
rould he meterially impeded. Ills
waseetefortumatelf new- ' sftua.
could not speak for himself, but
Ministers. In the last Session of
d not laboured under the same ml,-
1 he complained that the restrictions
im were extremely galling, for he
.e accepted those offices of kindness
rent, which, as a son, it was his
Now, indeed,- the Prince was
nee, and his Ministers, who alone
maintained a total silence ; but he
I could not doubt that if before the
e which he was placed, were irk.
experience that had been had of
;hness's conduct, they would Le
re.—[Hear, hem% hear 11—Where,
as the necessity of all this ma-
vere the claims to be imposed so tin-
Tolls ? 'Why, if the Regent were in
s, did not his Ministers advise his
to send a message to the House
lose the most reasonable grounds for
g •
rant' It did not seem, however,
with the Right Honourable Gentle.
• advice to the Prince which should
official communication, but Parlia.
upon instantur, without a single
gned, to pass a cote for 100,0001.
s to take it for granted, on the word
sat it woold not be misapplied, and
known how limey years this ar-
r. was to be paid before the debts of
'ales were extingaislied The money