The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-02-22 00:00:00

TIIE STATESMAN

WIIIiMOMMID y.•••=•••••••••••=rmaiw.m• _
not in reality .o large and efficient as it appeared to ders while a war I,v:is going on, to give information
be, nod it would well I)...iiie their Lordships to of what milers w easocretlyaolalressed to.thall•
cause an enquiry to be instituted, in order to aster- She *obis:Fat:ft •
sal* folst pane theelsiet motion
tail, whether there was trio something radically wrong nth Intelsgenee fretilication 'of pea With
in the whole systetn,—whether in the construction. America should imitate, it miglitaliminis% the objec-
of our ships we 'were not much inferior to other tions f o it. The Noble Earl had stated generally,that
Powers, and whether we ought not to get rid of orders had been given to English frigntes not to en.
many useless ships, that the remainder might be ran- rage an -enemy's ship; this wifk--lint' so—hut the
tiered more -effective. This Ull.l 'laterally a naval Noble Viscount replied, that he had no hesitation in
country, and he trusted me long that the subject 9r saying,-that 11-aen.. English .frigate were to.court an
the state of'our navy.WoUld be seriously taken up.— action with a French line-of-battle ship the Corns
No aubject surely could be of greater itnportanc.e,.or mender-would subject himself to be fried •by a
could better deserve the attention of their Lordships Court-Martial.. The AmeriCan vessels in queetion,
and the British nation. were largely superior to our's, and' because the Ainc-
Lord MELVILLE rid, it was not his intention ricans chosoto call them frigates, was it to be said,.'
to oppose the motion, with the exception of the that our frigates were to be erinsidered a match for!
last branch of it; but there were two topics in the them ?—The first knowledge of %such a circumstance
Noble Earl's speech to which he wished to reply.— not only justified, but called upon: the Admimity to
The first was a charge of deficiency in manning our state to all Commanders of our frigates that they
ships, 'which rendered them unfit to encounter the were not to consider themselvet under any obligation
American crews, and that our crews ought to con- •to meet them, and Ire who would have shrunk from
silt of picked men as they are. It was very easy to advisingloch a measure, did not deserve to retain his
say this ; but if the Noble Earl meant to convey 1 situation at the •Artniiialty Board an hour. The
that it was impossible for us to do so, he had been Noble Viscount complained, of this preliminary mat-
guilty of an absurdity so striking, that it was not ter of the Noble Fart after the notice he had given ;
necessary to reply to it. Tire British navy consist- for not an article of his charges loot any thing to da
ed during the war of 140,000 men, and it was with the Board of Admiralty. Every Paper should be
.
impossible to pick men out of this number for produced ; hat it was very hard to be kept in sus
every particular class of ships. It was equally i pease month after month, Session after Session, and
impossible to pick men, and send there to the coast then to be called upon for heaps of paper which had
of Ametien. Litoldes several of the actions alluded nothing to do with the Beard of Admiralty.
to had been fought off the coast of Brazil and Por- Lord DARNLEY replied, and consented to with-
tugal, and not near the coast of America. To pro- draw the motion objected to (tio. the 13th), upon
vide a competent crew adequate to man every ship which the rest were tarried mein. digs.
was all that the Board of Admiralty could do. It j BuiTtstt Tr:OOP:4 Alift()An.
was not the sistem of the British navy to pick men, Lord GREN VILLE moved the Order of the Day
amid he had no hesitation in saying that it would for his motion for la% ine before the House, Ist, 'a
be injurious to that system to do so. As to in- statement of the established rind effective force now
creasing, the complement of men, would any naval maintained by us in the differeie. foreign stations in
toimilsistration he justified in cramming ships with j Europe ; and 2dly, a statement of the established
rouse men than health would allow, to be sent on a and effective force of the Stall; both at home and
long voyage to the coast of America, to meet Ameri- abroad, in different parts of the world. At the
out ships with an equal number of men off a coast opening of the Session he called the nttention- of the
into which they could put for the purpose of recruit- House to a circumstance quite unparalleled in the
ing whenever they chose ? England had an immense history of the e orld. When the success of our
trade to protect in all pants of the world ; and it was Allies put a period to a contest of twenty year, we
absolutely impossible, in the long voyages which i were found for twelve months afterwards still conti.
English ships had to perform, to relieve the crews so nuing to maintain an immense army in different parts
as to present their health from being injured. The lof Europe. By the arrangements made for bringisil.
American blockading ships, and our SS gun frigates, the Allies together, the berthen of maintaining this
were both called frigates; but they were not of the I army fell upon our shoulders—not until the object
same class of ships : and because they had two or hof the meeting should he gained, or even till a tea-
ehree frigates or sloops of war of this larger size, souable time afterwards, but—for the whole of the
were we not to send to sea any ship of inferior force current year in which the engagement was made.-
-or because the Americans had three or four such The consegnence was, that up to the •close of last
ships, sere no to build all our's of the same size?—! year, till within sit weeks of the time at. which the
What did the Noble Elil mean by saying, that it Noble herd was speakine, we had been subsidizing
was twee sary for us to have vessels of a similar de- not only the military, but the umnilitary Powers of
scription ? Ile (Lord M.) admitted the principle of Europe, and maintaining armies a rraeged, some very
building our ships of war and cruisers according to nearly in direct war against each other, and the
those of the enemy to which we were opposed; and greater part in martial array ; and we' ;Intl exhibited
this principle had been acted upon, when we built to the world the example of maintaining enulliming
our frigates of the size of the French: but all that -Powers in order to enable Mein, by a hostile army,
are could do to oppose these American ships was to ito support opposite and contradictory objeebs. At
have a certain number of the same size. The Noble length we had arrived at the period, when the last
Earl complained that we had but ton many vessels ofisum of money had been paid to these foreign Powers;
a small description : but it was necessary to have a !and we had now 'leisure to Inuk to e !let rent:lined to
number of these Tor the protection of trade ; wind if : us for our own security, and for liaatenirig our hur-
the Noble Lail contended that one large vessel was thens. Yet the close of our Military eccettor onul.!
better than two small ones for this purpose, he was{ prove that we had been maintaining e 13tamr army
at issue with him, and he appealed to ally naval officer r than we had ever before in any part of Europe, the
to decide the question. There was not a single convoy I expence of which was to fall upon the already over-
in which n dem old was trot made for small vessels: , barthened shoulders of the people of this 'country.—
arid Sir Alexander Cochrane desired ten or twelve • The question of the propriety of this measure was
more }san-brigs to bo sent out to him, as-being the not to be argued oil time present motion ; but his
most useful riles of vessels fur operations on the Lordship was maxim's that the fact should at last
Ainetican coast. Bat then the Noble Earl said,, come on the table in snore regular mid connected
flint these gut-brigs %sere not lit to meet the Ameri- form, and not merely be to be collected from some
curl sto.Ts of ear. Who ever said they were ?--.. hint or speech heard by few at the close of a Session.
Lis t flies were useful for the protection of trade, in- The fact was important and new : it was wholly un-
asiriech as no American privateer would come near precedetsted ; and if it could be justified, he was
then. As to the construction •of our ships, the anxious to know the grounds of that justification._
Noble Earl could not select any class of ships which When it should "come to he considered, there would
had peen built for a ce..tury past (dad he shoal(' be two views of it, which lie did not now mean to
have the records of tee ally to assiit him), armie, bat of which he thought it fair to put the
ships bliiit upon precisely the same model, of which House distinctly in poistosion. The first was the
some bird turned out not good, and some bad; of effect of the measure upon our finance ; and the 2,1,!
which tort 'wen prii,etl, and otill•IC ithIISCII. its Wed 111)011 our political interests at home and
Wilether it was not possibm to build ships so nicely abroad. When we were brought to the period of the
as to make all upon the same model lure out precise_ • restoration of peace this time last year, not a meraent
ly alike, was more :lain lie could pretend to say : should have been lost in replacing us in the enjoy.
but there was one topic in the Noble Earl's speech meat of the advantages of peace, of which we stood
of real importance, newts, that in which he spoke so especially in need: for we had made exertions on-
of the degree of skill and science with which British known to our ancestors, and to any other country;
ships were constructed ; nod charged us with deli. and these exertions were made their Lordships knew
ciency in these qualities. Amid here.the Nohle Vis- . with %stint cheerfulness, because they were vitally
count ( \blink) was uefortunately compelled to necessary to our perseverance in the struggle.—
agree a i.ll the Noble Etrl ; and he did it safely, for Whatever difference of opinion there was with respect
it was stilted in the rep its upon their Lordships' to tine measures of Ministers, there was none of tine
table. !lat Idsine on this score was not imputable necessity of hazarding every thing to maintain the
to the Board of Oilmiellty •!* this day or the pre- contest. The country did this in the hope of laying
ceding dos ; for the ii h.r I existed for a century some claim (which no generous breast ought to with-
past. Neither did toe Warne attach upon the de- stand), to an intimation mid ardour to relieve them
paitinent inn which the incompetence was proved, for from their burthens, when such relief should be prae.
no men were more meritorious in their line than the ticable, equal to, or even snrpassing its own ardour
officers of that department. But it was found, that .to submit to them. When the creitinuance of the
French, and even the Russian and Danish shipswrights, British force on the Continent should b•coinematter
were mimic capable of uniting the theory of naval of consideration, it would be for those who justified
architecture with the practice than the English the measure to show, not some speculative benefit
ship-builders. The Noble Lord here read an extract from it, but a necessity so imperious as to oppose
from a Report of the Committee for revising time their most repugnant feelings against it. He believed
Civil Concerus of the Navy, from which Committee, they *nubd be aide to show nothiug more than a
I: , said, more good effects had arisen to the public palliative for the measure. They would next be
than from any similar institution. It stated upon called upon to show some political advantages which
the subject of the education of our shipwrights, that there was reasonahle ground of hoping might arise
unless the Is stem were altered, not even a single good from it. The Noble Earl had last night announced,
working-twin would be found in the yards: that no not a certain bat a probable time of laying before the
Liar attached to. the officers of those yards : that House the result of the late negncintions; and having
many were men of natural parts and great skill ; and given this degree of explanation, he (Lord Grenville)
if they had little kitovt ledge of time theory of naval had no intention of prematurely discussing them.—
,
architecture, Governmeet was chargeable with the Till last 'light, however, nothing like a hope of their
defect, in not having provided them with the Means being at on em.d hall been :Oven, and the country hid
of leastiiii:t it. This Report was presented to the been, bound to risiotain an army, not se long as its
King in Iliti6; mid:was laid before the Board of Ad- own interests e e•e concerned, but till the conclusion
tnitalty in I sO7, amid the recommendations of it of tiegociatioits over which it had no controul, and
were ordered to he carried into effect during the which might hate lasted for a number of years, ex-
Administration of a Noble Friend behind him.— ceedieg any n tiich titiglit be mentioned by even one
The Noble Viscount thee replied to some minuter who wi-iced to put an exaegerated number for Bee
points d the Notdo Earl's speech. The motion sake of shoeing the absurdity of the stipulation). As
which he must oppose was the last', namely, for a to the second nv•ion, it was still less necessary to say
copy of the sappesad orders.to prelaihit our frigates tnuali ; for is hiceser opinion there might be of the po-
(tom erkaging with the large American vessels; and lily of a particular measure, no one would deity the
he opposed it, first, hr cause thomotion would net right of time House toastioe, what steps hettbeett taken
procuie :fie Noble Eat I Lis -desired information ;.acid to uoc'.cc'' ear ea amuliture in that lo aneli of k which,
Lit:iiise it umn, HA fm! to call upen Coltman- in the common uat:e.:slaiidieg end feeling of the

country /nod Wildly called for it. He s tact-get' i
autiBpate.the result of the papej.ernovod or ;Um
Howie would judge of them. 'lf'' he, we peftifte
flite
anxious for the paper in question, the Wel nee of
this day had increased his ausiety to a degree which I
lie could hardly describe. His intention was to
bring the peace establishment to the lowest level ;,
and be Would- hereafter State on what grounds; he'
was perfectly-persuided It might be reduced in esta-
blishment, if not in expence, very nearly, if not
quite, to the level upon which it was when we first
commenced the Continental ear; From the reports
which he pow heard, he believed the question would
be not what should be our peace establishment,'but
whether it was ever meant to have a peace establish-
ment at all. He hoard ideas floating, and he had
been told today that there was actually an assembly
! of. Gentlemen who had endured to hear, with satis-
' factirm,.a statement otos peace establishment of. 19
millions per annum. Did they know what it was at
the close of the American war? The great and up-
right man who wes Prime Minister then, and who
not only knew whenever resistance was necessary,
but had a spirit of resistance, proposed to a Com.
mittee of Parliament then the detailed estimate of a
peace establishment. This was when France was a
far greater and richer power than she is now, and
when we had not a single Ally in Europe; when
even Holland had been torn from us ;_ and the peace
establishment then proposed was not five millions and
a half per annum. After the experience of five
years, he thought he had put the amount below what
was necessary, and he resorted to the same distinct
intelligible mode of statement, and the establish-•
ment was put at six millions. Ile did not rest there;
hut after seven years of peace, when the country
assumed a new face, when its commerce and ma-
nufactures flourished in a manner in which God
grant they might again,—in the year 1792, he pro-
posed to reduce this sum by 200,0001.; and it was
known that these different establishments did not
r.2st in estimate only, but the expeuce was actually
reduced to that level. Since lie lied • seen the ap-
palling statement to which he alluded, he had not
been able to consult written documents, but he had
looked into a printed statement, the accuracy of
which he could not doubt, which staled the supply
of the year 1792 at not six millions. Thus it was
when the contest broke out. Let the House cast its
eyes on our present situation, and what it was in
17112, end thee ask what must be the feelings of any
men who t• eth! be a party to, or who had dared to
acquie;ce in a peace establishment of 19 millions.—
I He saw no reason for any considerable increase be-
yond what our establishment was in 1792. He knew
the necessity of garrisoning two or three towns,
which we had not then, veould be replied to him ;
but lie pledged himself to prove that it "'vas only no-
, cessury to gerrison one of them, and that the others
e guild not requi,e it; and there was one possession,
the expellee of maintaining which must be admitted
to be less now than it was in 179.2,—he•niluded to.
the Fa.t. ladies. Ile Was aware that more expence
was eeceseiry for maimtaining the establishment, and
he w,is reedy to meet it. Ile had no desire to object
teat the pay of our troops had been increased; he
ceeetri reit in lii,` 11)(15,tri_., was in `cart instrumental
to it, and was convinced of its necessity. .11e,
therefore, did not ask •.Ministers to return to the
precise sum of the peace establishment of 1792; but
lie coetradeil that the force should be the same, or
nes, l'y so. Ile shoillil lias'e thought lie had deserted
his duty if he had heard This rumour on any day,
and hail omitted to call thelatteivion of the-House
the same day to the dreadful purpose which• was har-
boured, of making this country a great military
poWer, for no mail could propose a peace establish.
ment of 19 millions without meaning to change the
Constitution of England ; and whenever Engliand .
should take her rank among the great military
powers of the world, from that moment •she would
coßse to be a free country. " Whenever," con-
cluded he, i‘ you determine on such a policy, I for
olio shall cease my labours in this House ;• yon may
keep up Cie farms of debate, but their irtiluence in
the world will be gone I'm. ever."
I. ird LI VERPOOL had no idea of following the '
Noble Lord (Grenville) through the detail of his
speech ; but there .were come points on which he must
be permitted to say a' few words. Ile totally re-
butted the charge thet Ministers shrunk from any en-
quiry on the subject now stated to the House. If he
had one nnxiety stranger than another, it was that
the time should arrive when a full and clear exemineel
thin might be entered into without injury to the
public sem:tee: but with respect to the subsidiary
system which had called forth so much observation,
lie should remark that an inaccurate conception hail
been enterteintel by that Noble Lord. It was not
the fact, that the subsidies were at all hazards to
continue a year. The original engneement was, that
they should continue a year, provided the war did '
not lei-milt:oe before that year close 1. When the
Detiliitive 'freely tool; place, it became the immedi-
ate object of Nliels!ris to set that mite.' of •terniinae
tion on a plain footing; but as thete reielit be still
room fur ceiil and doubt as to MO autivil period of
the wares ceasing, it was thought best, so far as ire
(Lord Liverpool) could sey from a document which
lie had then before him, to fix the period so as to iii-
chide :he reasonable time when the allied armieti
might ieeeli their own territory, so ns to allow for
Aushia, Prussia, and Spain I urn mouths, .and for
Portugal and Iliicsia flier. On the subject of the
force retained on the Coutitient, he should express
his full belief that its presence there hell been
of the greatest service, and had saved serious dif-
ficulties.—[Hein., hear, heart]—As to -what had
been said on the subject of the peace establishment,
he must di'cline to make observations on papers laid
heroic ally otle r assembly ; but lie must say, that
%lieu the time came for •that enquire, be felt con-
Mont in the result. Let those who eerier, of the
probable eitcrease of exeemliture, recollect the change
of situation of England >ittce the last reduction. Let
them recollect the :11M:faunal colonies, the encrease of
pay to ull.depattineies of service, the etre-nesse' of
' half-pay, the ',ensiling to retired otliceis and soldiers,
enereasemetits to an ainn'elit•whicla could hest scarce-
ly been conceit eiL—sorne of them due to the Noble
Lord (Grenville), and which tnight be easily thought
not too ei.ely yielded, and come dictated by obi 'mu.;
justice and strong etlpssity... The policy of Mr. Pitt•
had been talked of, but lie believed' it to be tile 'feel-
ing of that great man I.'.aisr.:f, that in his cylmates of