The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-08 00:00:00

T3ll KING'S lIIESSAOI._

On the Order of the. Day being read for taking into
consideration his Majesty's Message, presented by the
Earl of Liverpool on the preceding day; and the Mes-
sage being read,
Tips LORD CHANCELLOR said, that in the absence
of the. Noble Lord (Liverpool), who had moved to have
the Message taken into consideration that day, he should
take isioe himself to move the usual Address to his Ma-
jesty. The object of the Message was to call on Parlia-
ment to pass a law that should remove the doubts that
might exist, relative to the power of the King to dispose
I of freehold, copyhold, and leasehold property, belonging
to Isis Majesty, previous to an I at the time of his acces-
sion to the 9 hrone. By the Acts of the 39th and 40th
of the late King, a power was given to his Majesty to
dispose of any property which might have come to him
from any ancestors, not Kings or Queens of England ;
and the Acts declared such property to be in all respects
similar to the property of subjects; but no provision
was made for the disposal of the kind of property alluded
to in the present Message. It was for their Lordships,
therefore, to consider the propriety of remedying ilia,
defect in the Act. He conclud d, with moving "That
lan humble Address be presented to his Majesty, thankiag
his Majesty for hie Most Orarious Meuage, and assuring
his Me3esty that the House would make such provisions
as should appear most likely to answer the object his
Majesty had in .view."
Lord ELLEN BOROUU if observed, that, as the Ad-
dress cow moved was a •mere waver of form, he should
-sot make any opposiion to it; but he must say that he
pas net friendly to such Bills as the one now proposed to
be introduced. The public must feel an interest to every
measure that related to the payment of debts by the
Crowe. The intended Bill would enable his Majesty to
dispose of his palace at Brighton, or Ley other property
possessed by him previous to his consingto the Throne.
timedalisare' therefore, was oce which ought to be nar-
rowly looked Into, and he hoped their Lordships would

'attention:

V/ Address was then agreed to—:Adjourned to
lloaday.

HOUSE OF COU3IONS —Fin DAY.

The SPEAKER informed the house that the Rovai
Assent had been given by Co.nuiissioa to certain Public
and Private Bills.
Mr. FORBES presented a petition from the Hop
Planters of a parish in the county of StISSX, against the
Hop Duties.
Mr. R. COLMAN presented e. petition from Ely,
against the. Insolvent Debtors' Act.
Mr. CURTEIS presented a petition from the parish
of Battle, in Sussex, against the Duties on Hips.
Mr. lIUME renewed a notice made last year, for cer-
tain Returns from the Post-o.lice, rel dive to the Inland
Letter Carriers Supperannnation Fund.
Mr. lIU3IE moved for a return of the news of any
Surreyors of taxes engaged in any other occupation,
rich the nature of employment. The same honourable
;mother moved for other returns, the particulars of
which, from some confusion in the gallery, we could not
catch.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from the shop-
keepers and other traders of the town of Liverpool,
against the partial operation of the House Tax. He
said the petition was numerously and respectably signed,
aNI lie would have been happy ilk were In Ifs power is
Ore his support to it; but oo mature deliberation, he
was obliged to declare that the petitioners had not made
out a case sufficient for him conscientiously to do so. In
point of fact, if he messed the prayer of the petition on
the house, it would be to press a total repeal of the
hause tax. It was his duty to present it, and lie had ex-
treme pleasure in vouching for the respectability of the
subscribers to it, but he could not consistently with his
duty give it his supnor'.
Ueneral OASCOVNE took the liberty of correcting
an error of his right bon. colleague; the petition did not,
as -he stated, require a total repeal of the house tax, it
only asked far a revisal of the Bill, which had puzzled
,Magistrates to explain, more than any other bill ever
seal there.
Ater a short conversation between Mr. Hume, Mr.
Hasid's/ion, and Lien. Hascoyne.
Mr. HUME rose for the purpose of putting a qnes-
lion to the Chancellor of the Examiner, whether it was
that right lion. gentleman's intention to continue the tax
on inner windows. •He took the liberty of submitting
to him, that as the Revenue from that portion of the
rate was very inconsiderable, and as i.s op: ration was the
most oppressive, it ought to be done away with, and the
tax be confined to the outer window.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it was not his intention to make any alteration in the
operation of the Wiodow Tax. If he once admitted the
argument, that because the produce of a tax was not
considerable th 4 it ought to be reorahnl, he feared that
the hawse wind • lie too frequently troubled with applica-
tion* of that nature, or any tax coaiidersd of sufficient
importance to be continued.
.The petition was then laid on the tahie.
Lord FOLKSTON E deferred his notice of motion on
the equitable Reglement of contracts, from the has of
Match to Wednesday the 25d of April.
KCMGS PROM HI% MAJESTY.

Mr. Secretary PEEL moved that the house do resolve
itself into a Commii tea of the whole, t.► take into conside-
ration his Majesty's most gracious massage relative to the.
disposal of she property of the Crown.
The SPEAKER. bs !p; lett the Chair,
Mr. Secretary PEEL rte to explain to the Committee
Out by the Act ofQnren Anne, the Cro •n was reatrierea
from the alienation of its pr.sperty, but an Act in 17W re-
moved the restriction so tar its regarded the real proper.
tv, or that which may he termed the private property of
the Crown, such as property purchased out of toe pri-

PRICE SEVEN PENCE.

vy purse or by monies not appropriated to any public
s: nice, or such as property devised by the King, except
by his Majesty's predecessors, or not held by the jure
coronae. It was quite clear, that in that Act there was
in omission, as no provision was made for that property
which the King might be
_possessed of at the timellsias.
accession to the throne. There was this strange a
ly, that the King was treated as a subject, with regard to
property acquired after his accession to the throne, and
as a King with regard to property in hispoesession when
amities% The object of the Bill which he then wished
to bring in, was merely to 'vend ea, provision of the
Act of 1799„is far as real property: To give his Majesty -
the power to dispose or bequeath of all that property ac-
Kiired as a subject, which lie was entitled to do as a
ing. He therefore moved that the Chainnin of the
Committee be directed to move for leave to bring in a
Bill tespeeting the disposition of certain property of his
Majesty the King, his heirs, and successors.
111 r. HUME said that he could not exactly understand
the distinction made by the Right Hon. Gentleman with
respect to the landed property of the Crown. On looking
to the Act of 1799, be saw that by the first section; the
landed property was conveyed into the bands of True-
tees, and by the fifth section, it was provided that In care
of Inc King dying intestate, the lands should go to t'.c
Commissioners of Woods and Forests. It might be re-
collected that on the decease of his late Majesty, he (Mr-
Hume), took the liberty of putting a question to the hio
nisters, if his Majesty had die! without making a will,
or not ? After sonic delay, an answer was given that
the King did mike a will, but that it was not considered
legal. lie then inqnired bow the landed property wan
disposed of, and he understood that it was taken possec-
sion of by the Co iiinissioners of Woods and Forest,.
He wished to ask if the object of lke application had any
reference.—
Mr. Secretary PEEL begged. leave to interrupt ~the
Hon. Gentlein.in by informing iiiip that the Bill then in-
troduced was not intended.to tooth any property held by
the King jure coronae. It merely related to the real pro-
perty which the King might be possessed of on coming
to the throne. • •
The motion was then agreed to.
The House resumed, the Report was brought up, and
Mr. Secretary Peel was ordered to bring in a Bill accord-
ingl y.
A me,sage from the Lords announced their Lordships'
assent to certain Bills.
ARMY ISTIMATtS. ,
Lord PALMERSTON moved: the llamato resolve
itself into a Committee of Supply, to take iteo cossidefs-
lion the Army Estimates for the year.
On the (robin being put,
Mr. CR LEVEY rose for the purpose of offering an ob-
jection to the house going into a Committee to vote away
:ix millions of the public money without some notice of
the situation of the country. The kingdom was at tit's
moms nt affected by the cal ties of various and aggra-
rated di st re: s ThollSilndie thousands were every day
reduced to beggaryisettrtin, and a revolution in property
was going on to a great and a deplorable extent. He
begged to remind the house that the prayer of all peti-
tions from every county was for economy in the expend:-
lure of the puldie money—a reduction of the increase °Na-
iades given during- the late deprecitaion of the currency,
ant as abolition of ell sinecures. Thais, was Si hetet
time for him to remind the House of those petitions thus
the rre.rient when tit-y were about to vote away a'.x
snilliors of the public. money. In theyearl792, the votelor
the Army Estimat -s was 2,000,0001. and at this time
they were 6,11011,000'., independent of another 1,000,01101.
which ex: called fur in shape of the Extroordinaries.
,'lie
was of opinion that considerable reductions coul be
made. With respect to the increase of salaries, it was but
reasonable that that part, at least, which was added dur-
ing the depreciation of the currency, should be taken ntf.
The principle was adopted so far as the clerks in office
were concerned, but lie thought that it should be extended
to the higher authorities themselves. After some other
observations, the hon. member said that lie would submit
a resolution, which lie should put on the Journals, for the
purpose of leasing a record for the country, and of giving
the house an opportuuity of s:yin,..o whether they woul 1
still support the waste of the public . money, or give a
pledge to the cetiatry of a reduction of expense.—
(Hear, ii-ar.) lie toen moved the following resolu-

,
lion :
Resolved,—That it appears to this house, from the Esti-
mates laid hefore it (Jr the service of the Army for the pre-
sent year, that they amount to 0,081.,13981. exclusive or the
Army Extraordinarics, wnlch of late years have in general
moulded to one million more, wnilst the Supplies (or the
Army its 179, amounted only to 2,331.,1391.; that in the
present state of unparalleled distress and ruiu, in which eel.
Agricultural interests of these kingdoms ore involved, it is
the bounden duty of this house to reduce the Estimates for
the different public services of the year, to as near the
amount of 1192. as the safety of the State will admit ; and
above all, that it is the bounden duty of this house to ac-
cede to the universal prayers and petitions of the people, i s
1 reducing all salaries or allowances of whatever description.
which were augmented in consequence of the late deprecia-
tion In the value of the currency, in abolishing all sinecures
and useless offices, in reducing the salaries of all such office;
as are overpaid, aril in regulsting, upon principles of the
strictest economy, all such other offices, the duties of whle's
are now performed by depute.
Sir T. L ETH BRIM; i.., atough he concurred in a gre • t
measure with the resolntion, there was part of it to which
he could not give his support; and therefore he could not
1 give a vote Co: its adoption.
4- Lord PA 4,51 EliS I.ON Was of opinion that the amend-
ment of the lion. tientletnan was to ally uncalled for.
In the first glace, with regard to the Army Estimates.
the proper time to give an opinion on their amount was
when the house_vrent into a Committee. With respect
to abolition of aiLa_scares, they were prospectively abo-
lished; and as for the increase of sa'aries, they also
i were prospectively diminished, and others, which wcre
never increased, were volun•arily abolished altogether.
Mr. CREEVEY begged to remind the Noble Lotil
(Paluterstoo), that since the Act for the Abolition of
Sinecures in 1815, Sinecures were given away by the
very persons' who had then proposed it.—(lle tr.)
Mr. JUNES wished to ask the lion. Gentleman (sfri
C.) if he meant to contend that the Military Establish-
ment should be reduced to the standard of 1792, notwitb-
. standing the inerea:ed population of this country, of fee-
laue, and the increase of colonies shwa that rriod ?
He regretted the peculiar certumstances in which Ire-
land was then placed, hut while it continued in that state,
he, for one, would not agree that a single soldier could
be withdrawn with any consistency fir the a ifety of the
country. He was one who did not thick that the salaries'
of office should be reduced, as he fit tnat public men
were underpaid ratner than overpaid; and after they had
given ten per cent, ft their salaries, there surely could
. be no claim for a further reduction! With regard to the
reduction of the salaries of Under Clerks, the question
was whether they were not paid too highly in comparison
with their super.ors in office.
Mr. HUME could out agree to the arguments of the
• lion. Gentleman (Mr.-Jones), ant he begged leave to a'ik
him if the estiontos of the Army were six Arn•llions, ati4
those of 1792 were hut two million:, what objection lat.
. I could have to register those facts tip to the Journa's -: Ile

. • -

:• .