The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-04-03 00:00:00

read by the. Won. Itareaeiffio hale
*tad, and 4W not retard theta ifs •
of the sentlnisnts of Use Catlttitiia
Mr. S. NICP: svid, that thee'
was not a meeting of the Clergy c
.of those !Oman Catholic Clergymen .
be aasembled in that town. lVith Alm permission of
the House he would read a )r.tter which he had received
from one of the very persons who signed the violent
Resolutions, to billiW that the sentiment' %pollen by
them were not generally entertaired. The writer of
the letter owned that many of his Catholic brethren
were willing to receive einaiwipation upon the terms
provided by Mr. Plunkett's Hill. This was not the
apiniou of one who supported that aleasure, hut who
had signed those violent resolutions which had been
quoted to the House. In 'soother letter which he had
rereived from Ireland, it was stated, that if the mea-
sure were passed into a law, those tioublesoine s:drits
and tools of fart• who ,notv agitated the country,
would be at once put down. The Illuii.llein!.er then con-
tripled, that if the treaties made at the capitulation of
bitneric'" lead hewn fulfilled, the present db.cussiornst
and the celitury of anitno.ity and conteistion which
had unhappily followed, would never have berg known
to the world. He certainly did not wi!.ll to disguise
the strong sentiment which he felt, and always had telt,
against the proposed seem it its. There were no seem hies-
wanted. But if they must hare, them, he thone,lat
there ialzht have been much hatter beturitirs.four*
than tour
upon the whole, the oseasure weut in as direct a line
is possible into ern the mequalifiril desolitnd.: of the Ca.
tholir, and the prejudit ed fears awl jealsousies of the
Protestant.
Sir G. HILL explained. • lie had given the House
dktioct and full itifurinatioi, as to the existence of the

Protest.
Mr. C. iirrcillNON, after complimenting the
Hon. Member for Lino-lick, said that it was impossi-
ble but that the measure carrying with it heavy penal
enactuirots, sl..onlil meet with some who objected toil;
and he could not while he hail a rent in that House,
submit that such prison; should be charged, as they
had been by his lion. Friend, as tools of faction, riot-
ous spirits, and public agitators. Because, if they
were to be so denominated, he also most be a tool of
fai•Con awl an agitator ; fur he had joined iti the ob-
jections u hid, had called down upon them those re-
pittaclifill epithets. Ile thought it v..ty likely that all
the Irish Clergy tallith! eventually object to take the
required oaths ; there...ire, lie could not sillier that
tho..e Gentlemen should by anticipation lie asper.eil,
because they opposed ii hat he apprehended was a
highly penal enactment. Ile believed that it was quite
in the power of the Noble Lord and the Right lion.
Member for Liverpool. still to modify the aggrieving.
clauses, s i as to make the mrasere in every way unex•
ceptionalile. He should IlJt vote fur the ametiduietit
of the 'light Hon. Nleinlo:r fur Oxfottl, because that
would go, if carried, to throw out the whole meastoe ;
and there was nu wan who nould be less willing to do
that than himself. But he did wish that the Bill could
be reionimitted. If it was nut, though he should not
vote against the measure, yet he woo hi not jote ter
it. He was ready to acknowledge,-tleat the Peotest-
ants hadgiven up a great deal, and lie thanked them
for it. 'they had given up what w.is most difficult for
I man tieeeign—they had gliEll up their prejudices.—
Rat all was rendered ~litiost, valueless. by oaths re-
quired of Ilse Clergy. Supposing', as lie tia.l a i ight
to suppose, that the Cdthillic Clergy :l Id refula- to
take the oaths. Sutli refieoti was declared to he a
inisdetneantotr. To those who should hereafter
receive orders, this penalty would not be so great,
because they would have the ch Ace of taking'
them upon such terms, or of choosing some
other profession. But then there was many who
had been in possession of their lit iv., and cures for
years, who had not the choice, and insist either take
the oaths, or if they had coliscientions scruples, be
dragged to a gaol. Supposing all the Catholic Clergy
' throughout Ireland should refuse to take the oath,—
was the Noble Lord and his colleagues, and even his
friends wound bini prepared to say that if they did
so refuse, the whole body of the clergy were to be
sent to gaol ? What would be the consequence of
such a proceeding? if, besides the 211,000 soldiers
now in !reknit', they should send all the troops io
i Eneland anal Scotland thither, they would nut be
able to quell the indignant spirit of the people, if
if such all enartinent were carried into effect. The
Ilcn. Member then argued that if the oath should be
generally taken, there was nu need of a Protestant
Board fur deciding npon clerical appointments. It
was first making them take the oath, and then casing
we did not believe them and would not trust them.
Ile held in his banal an extract of a letter from a Ca-
tholic, who was favourable to the general measure.
Although he was excessively anxious that it should'
pass, yet he could not withhold his feelings against
the clauses objected to. Ile stated, that he admitted
the unjust tevecity with which they would press upon
the Ckrgy, but Insist rely upon the generosity of the
oiler, and the mild exercise of the poled' vested
in them. Now lie (Mr. H.) would not so trnst, in 4
case of such momentous importance, to the humanity
of an iedefinite Government. Supposing the Clergy
to subject tleuiselves to the penalty provided by the
enactment, would the Magistrates act against them?
If they did, they would have the whole country up ia
reltellion; and if rebellion could be justified, it would
be under such circumstances. The lion. Mettiber re
prated his wish that the Bill should be recotninitted,
and of his iutentiou of nut voting for it, unless they
should have out altogether the machinery of that
siltee
part relating to the Veto.
Mr. STEWAR I' said a few words in an inaudible

tom respecting something which had fallen from the
Hen. Member for Cork respecting the Primate of
Ireland, but we could nut correctly ascertain its effect.
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON explained.
Mr. ELLIS did not consider it too late then, at the
eteventli hour to put his solemn opinion upon record
'igainst-the first of these Bills, which lie considered to
Abe destructive of the stability of the Empire. And
.the second, with a peculiar infelicity of legislation,'
went to take away &Inite good which it was eves col-
tended by the other side would result tibia theogera-
'lion of die first. He was niece that he brought
bitable tsletits to. tire deledasioit of 40 conitehoesiiit a
futt at • least he meld banjo. isive-sbare et
as "in die 'if (MN imiliikArt. the
freteereits !mad, IrStr
titan could be obildbeCliy Lretiied delltiadiaa

,

the measure
The dis.
rollected from
th It from a
represent, end-*I 0at1114444*e
second in Empire. Toaddress himself. however,
to the Bill, It was a Rill selected by the Catholic'
and approved by the Protestants. nil' fileciron
the Catholics were obvious by the girclerlltion of an
eminent Barrister whom he waoldsmarrorriss.hetioliss,
had been mentioned in the discaeollogo "pats the preen
He was a person, generally resorted to by
Cathelie Ifieraily of Ireland theft metlitue.' Th
House, however. hart been told that they were to legis-
late, and not to Consider what *tied be acceptable.
But this was au orpiment not ?cry consistently nrgedi
by those who advoceted measnres of rudetisiCand Soso-
ciliation. Neither the flathotie nbr 110 Pidestalit-
was satisfied; yet was it prOpesed fo enforke cintent,
upon the one, and inflict liberty upon the (Aber.
shjecta to the Bill upon its principle ; but snpmising
that objection to be removed, Ise did Viol think the
security olfered• was sufficient. The loyalty of the Ca-
tholics depended upon the loyalty of their *Prick ; ani!:
yet the Bid proposed in effect to increise his'
power. Ile war compelled to refer to a period:
of hiitory which he would have willingly blotted'
bus his recollection. It u;a3 to the insurrection of.
i 790. It had been contended that that was not a'
'Catholic itssurrection, herause 'one of its leaders was
Protest sot Dissentes ; but when it was recollected
how 'nasty lautelsed thou,asil persons were coneelied'
in it, it was impossible to believe that it was any
.thing but a Popish insurrection. Recurring. to the
Bill, he consilsred it peculiarly oh3ectianable in detail.
The House were called upon to sanction a measure
anpre elented for its inconsistency. They were
called upon t.i allow a mass to vote at the election of II
Slember of Parliamesst, awl Ina at that s f a o.lurch-
wartlesi.--(Cheers from the Ministerial Benultes,
echoed by the Opposit;on.)—They were desired .10
allow a Man to he time Governor of a Colony, and yet
to prevent his being Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
17pou the whole he' &sit eel to II! abe I. ye, that although
he opposed the Bill, he trusted he was free flow pre-
jet lie e. If, however, he hail a prejudice, it was one
of au extraordinary character, tor he had been esti-
cated in Popery.—(Hear, hear.)—In his youth he had
wished to give freedom to all the world. lie end the,
Hots. Member for Bramher (Mr. Willwrforce) Isail, it
seemed, changed altogether from their li:st opinions s.
and while he (Mr. !:.).gave that lion. Member credit
fur the sincerity of his opinion, Ise begged to retain
his owns
Mr. F. ROBINSON lead not the slightest intention
of defending his Right Honourable and Learned
Fe iced (Mr. Plunkett) from the unreasonable attack
which the Honourable amid Learned Gentleman who
had just sat down had made upon him in his absence.
He declared himself to he nu more disposed to take
the feelings of thee Protestants of Ireland from the
Honourable awl Learned' Gentleman than lie was to
take the feelings of the Catholics from that nameless
person, that missile orator, as the. Honourable and
Learned lieutletss.su called hies, who, eloquent as hr
might be, active as they all knew he was, he was par
suaileil did not, in the r..vings of his eloquence, speak
the ti tie and lione4 feelings of the Irish Catholics.
It etas tot that account that, although he knew Mr.
I ITomiell was dissatisfied—although. lee knew that
Mr. (Connell heal always heels dissatisfied—although
he despaired of ever sat:sfying Mr. O'Connell—he bud
no doubt that if the present nieastire were passed, it
would be highly satisfactory to the great body of the
Catholics of Ireland. Ile confesssed that be had
heard the Honourable and Learned Gentleman nith
much regret, departing, as he had done, front the wise
and dignified course of his Right Hon. Friend. the
Member for the University of Oxford—a course whis Is
if any thing could add to the respect which he felt fur
his Right Hon. Friend. would certainly have had that
elicit. Indeed the only misfortune which had attended
these discussions was, that• the lion. and Learned Gen-
tleman who had last spoken had endeavoured to rake up
the ashes of what Ise (Mr. Robinson) had hoped oils
fur ever extinguished lire. The. Right Honousable Gen-
!kinds' here entered into an elaborate historical details
of the events of the last I:10 years, to show that what-
ever Might have been the rase for two centuries before
the Revolution, the character of intestine divisions and
foreign stars had wholly changed, and that they were
wholly divested of every thing religions, and were en-
tirely political. lie proceeded to ridicule the apprelsen-
sions which some persons still entertained of the Pope.
Whaterer the thunders of the Vatis.an might once have
been, they were uow more like time sound of the rattling
chariot mil' Salmassens, than that of the true thunders of
Heaven. lie was indeed totally at a loss to conceive
how, at the present day, any reasonable man could con-
jure up any thing that should appear to him to be
a just ground fur apprehension from the power of
the Pope. Adverting to what an Honourable Mem-
ber had said of the ikelarations of Dr. Drusugoole, he
observed, that the House might as well take the opinion
of the people of England from the nonsense of Hunt, as
that of the. Catholics of Ireland, from the ravings of Dr.
Dromgoole. Nur were the apprehensions entertained
of the etuigration of the Protestants of Ireland, irr his
opinion, better founded. He was persuaded, that the
Protestant Nubility and Gentry of Ireland were too fond
of their country ever to quit it. Ile was persuaded that
they would stay there, supporting the honour and dir
nity of their station, and diffusing comfort and happs-
ness around them. lie was persuaded that when they
met in that Heine any of their Catholic brethren, they
would congratulate diem on their admission to the high-
est privileges of the Constitution, and cordially co-ope-
rate with them in that which must ever be their common
object—the prosperity of the United King.linu.—(llear I)
Mr. tiOULBURN opposed the Bill.
Lord BINM Nli commenced by saying that he sever
rose to speak on any question with so utiselc reins:tame
as ins the present. if the House were really of opinions
that the question was already fully discaseed,
slid
were unwilling to hear a person who had nut halm
spoken upon the question, lie would sit sloven.—{lllllo
of go on, hear, hear!)—lle hoped the House would
allow him to trespass for a few minutes upon its atter.
Lion.—(Near, hear !)—The Noble Lord then proceed;
td,, at some length, to reply tothe last Speaker. Hi
Sootended that the Catholic Religion is modern time'
and in other coutstries, was very different from Ohne-
itoppearesi to be in remote, unsettled, 'mai- dein•
lightened times. He saw nothing in the prioallles,
*her civil or-religious, this: could justify their es-
elusion from •,tbis Oanatitutioso ; he was, therefore, a
samions supporta, me the Bel. • •
HUTOIII MSO* iiplaiked.'
'Mr. fatirtsiouiseseed blialodisx as irgaresat
advanied ifeni: idettilicr rut Iftissiick • (31r.

I, ,

di,*if.mh.toietribsi,cadkto.reoll;lldr:4ll:llhnsettaktriettalietslret:str.::ffitui.):o:ll.;:d.i.tvileapititatill":„...
d such an arrisinent brong
was true, the House had no discreeime to exercise!
but he would maintain, that np to the presput
ithreyrelewreas but
totneereadrilLyle ;
tlen.qtihn see
treaty
utatyoftaoen_f ciaoedetulhf:doril
i.:1:
TI
which refarred to the state of the ito
4PaetatUy..nwi that was the first. Bat what 44 it
eassnose tp Their ;eiaiestirs intlertealt to man
that the Roman Catholics should enjoe even '-r•
.170"Istiacxes;Piehei1414iiee ripeu7selessveslissedttomiint:wbuthe:LfroirgreeitstelsidemoCffhroatimrilit4irlsl.4ll,ll.22-ViiilYi_t.
such
concede.llitike
Tr 11tfit:eltrasn'r as
tt.ota they w
ilfitig
word of
privilege; the.pritile4e alluded to referred, accarilief
nee i:t ft,
ttirobleotliheheEethitier:lll:l :04 yt l'irreleiseatrreetdit". hisiertutUtehwji fpo'r tietion:ittdhoeeeri
the first place, hie ohji clod to it becaue it w.aie,refu,e_.
I.llil change in the constitutiou of the coeften., se
relikielreettotlebnant seirvleexrytlceaht;tonhgjeecotfiismo
ea sx,feant,,ail....eing
naittseerew,
weaset
to be regarded with alarm and anxiety. 'it
*7 could
sot name a smeccesioa of Kings, or an impolegot
• @Vett
since Refformsation, which dill not bring the R..
teat' c.atkolic t'ellgioss herein their ennui.;
it woe not nnitaportant to consider what relaties tb,t
,Veiigioll should bear to the state in boors. Then tae
three treat Periosin to %Illicit he eould cull Nine the
House to direct their attention—th bre" the Re.
formation, that since the Refotmation, and that wlekls
it was now proposed to c 11111 l heave. Tberelaliossohiso
the itoman Catholic religiose bore to the State In4use
the Refonuation, was similar to that which `the
Protestant religion pore In it now, het eves
then the most furious exclusion of foreign an•
thority was insisted on. After the Rearm-
lion, an attempt was stalely made to nth-
pate the Catholic Church, but that being abandoned,
the State took a security for their exclusion how
political power, which existed up to the pres nt
pe-
riod. Now that they were about to adept a see
tiy•stem, and to grant political pooer, he was forceps
consider what relation the Catholics ought to beetle
the State. They were now about to leei4late for as
obscure sect—the greater part of Elmore prufes edtif
religion ; besides, in Ireland there was an Archbishop
to every pcoviere, and he believed a Consistorial pry- -
vince to every diocese. It was a relig;on supported.
by voluntary contributions. and was its every respect
calculated to give the priesthood a powerful Manes
over the minds of the people. If the priu iple of.the •
Bill was once recognised, the best course for Pas.
incest to have pursued, was to hue inquired jibbed's.
Winner which the Catholic Church was established
in other countries; for it was in vain to conceal that
they would soon have ;o meet claims in: the open
exee cise of the rites and the partial estahlishteutol
this religion. The manner in which its consul*
with the State should be settled, should, have bees
used at the moment of openiug the doors of paws la
its Members. The indefinite nature of the previa*
of the Bill in this respect, was one principal geed
of hie ohjecti.iss to it. Another was, the retails .1
this tountry to Ireland, he had been ash,d whether
he apprehended danger from the power of the Pope{
and splendid declamation and polished siditale hed
been employed against this supposed apprehoutiee":
lie apprehended no such thing. It was asked where
was the power of the Pope now ? 14e would alb,
where was it it' 1688? lo that very age, the Freya
ambassador lead thecatened to minis against the Pew
with 509 men, awl_ his Holiness declared that he
%Istill; have no defence but in the very unsatisfactory
measure of martyrdom. It was against domestic
danger that King William and Lord Somers tender-
took to guard. if we had one kingdom with '•
an immense majority of Protestants it might be not a
question whether the Catholic minority might be
safely admitted Leto office. But ten had two
countries—two kineiloins, one os which had bees pie
'iris ally united to tile uthet weir for twenty years;—
two islands, one divided front the other by a greater
span that which had fur ages divided us from what
hail been called our hereditary enemy. in the Cabo-
lie island we bad to tnaintain a Pr ,tes'ant establish-
ment, Could that be done if we admitted the laths,
lies into a complete participation in the Administre-
tive and Legislative power ? He assumed that the
Representation of Ireland would lie, if the Hill passrl,
ul ti
circumstance•
inatylYeatb forlic li:rroPtrershte:u ut k:staioen
lie dednblist4ftrtilu
that of
England. But uto Ireland, it was known that all
measures affecting that country emcee proposed. in-
flueocert, and in fact decided by the I;ish part of
the
Representatives of Ireland. if it was said, that $
else Catholic itepresentptives of Ireland they night
oppose the overwhelming' power of Pr. testiest New
ben, lee could only foresee inconvenient anticlines's
conflicts, very different from that tianquil Wilmot
whicheeke feispoila of the Bill anticipated; bat these
eunemenions were accompanied by securities. The le*
verities be thought reasonable enough ; he Aught
also that they might be •conscientionly salmeitma
to by the Catholic Clergy, brit the Catholic Chao
had sbewn that they disapproved of them, anti
ventured to prophesy that thee Bill could not bs
executed. If they attempted to put it in km
they must be prepared to tweet with willing *-
tines. As a natter of prudenee--as a user, eite•
ttib,osaugtt theowto setwenu_ereestchtemetnrainsiofnitlhlietyßolifi
milreal.stabc.
than the enactment of it—(Hear, hear !tri. re'
marking. that in this Bill, which. after the nuts
bee of skilful artists to whom it had Wit 'tke
.I'.
witted, might be considered a masterpiece, ill
manner as well as matter, there was an trier
le
the four lint Bev,. The Act of William an.; 31ary
richqs and
twhaes Ttirrodara,s
►liitertiee of the
standepeotAbeecti
b.
,t*:.)tirtnr.
rittire.eeZemo:iftahictri
eret
bi ..11itein t
I sod
thetwiag a comparison between the ineonsisrenef_et,
Bill on d Out have the effect of consoltilateng
eltshir. eormrtAsts.wdbeadillitla°yrYsrsantitin
t :duvet
**molter his Slajesty':, ;tiltaircto, hr cash! 1.0
gilgiAnd anti Ireiauel, or of "tieing
lit the third rea.iing—("t s. .:1:11111
. the pi.
retteetirsete ertienu_ witkett. _
eablithour. VcsAN.wNesil Ndti
b;didn:olrei bane. liortrioirse4rrit,
asthehiee, e. 4117.1,
• NM he (31r. C.) •=ho‘iti eiti,ftetl u.l "I
huiteet
• •

Tilly, STAT:'I-kv•
pikkoilir . lsr6dg •or ors rd
s giving. a cotsecrkle# ilectuded twat,.
A or lre
tlnitr, taats was to be rt
;Mem;l • artiarit'it t especially
y oftlie blotstse, but hams,. I, rrpre
men who happened to gerund in the im

4610 h thi d ‘llradY)
Approhatiet As- it goof
ruin theiepetitioce'spow lotion of
a sity which he had the ever bean