The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-04-24 00:00:00

should declare Great Britain and Ireland not
te be one people, but two, then the Legislative
~ton would be virtually at an end. If they
tr ,uld bring themselves to dissappoint the hopes
which . that measure , originated, they would hie-
eitably dissolve the Union of the two countries, by
reducing one to despair. Nay, they would do
more, for they would not only make those who
were united separate in interests, but they woad
place one in the situation of doing an injury to the
other. There were two kinds of union--one an
.union'of Parliament, the other an union of people.
If they disunited the people they might still have the
union .of Parliament; bet there itotitdhe tne tenger
that bond of reciprocal attathmente tars! entirety of
international interest and 'connection, which are at
once the pledges and the prohf.s• of cordial mid per-
fect union. They would in vain hope to retain the
Parliament, and exclude the people from it. The
thing was absolutely impossible.. The Catholics
cause forward to claim what they had been taught
%expect in the year 1800, and what they had every
season to think they should have obtained. at that
period—the privileges and rights which have been
so long withheld from them—the Protestants. came
forward in support of their Catholic brethren, pray-
log that Parliament should strengthen the Coestitu.
tion by granting the claims of the Catholics—and
both expressed a desire in urging their Petitions to
promote that, which every Member of that House
must be equally anxious to promote—the strength,
the energy, and the integrity of the United King.
doe, They told the House, that, Ireland expected
that her Petition would beattended to.' If her ex,
pectation should be disappointed, Ireland would be
against them--not against the people, but the mea.
sures of England. It was idle to talk of dangers
that .Wright result 'from conceding to the Catholic'
question. The Irish; people in their Petitions told
the House, that they had no idea of apprehend-
ing
any daogor to the security of the country, •
from the measure. Instead of desiring the penal
laws to he -continued as a security for the establish- ,
ments in Church and State, they deprecated, in the
strongest Manner, these securities which some per.
sons were so ready to give them, and called for con.l
cession from which they foresaw no danger to the so. ;
eurity of. property or establishments. They called
upon Parlianicit,. by conceding their prayer, to
unite the two nations, and notto geparele..their con-
nection, by tearing asunder that bond which was as
necessary to English interest, as to Irish safety. Ile
could easily foresee what would be the consequence
if a majority in that House should think proper to
decide against the people—to support the Minister,
and to disqualify a cation. He begged Gentlemen
to consider well what might be the possible effect of
the alienation that would follow such a decision. If
they should determine to
.tesist the Petition, and I
• maintain the exclusion—if they preferred to govern'
Ireland, not by conciliation, but by a system of un-
just coercion, the consequences might be fatal to
• bOth. Let the House but recollect what was at this I
moment the state of Ireland—it was a scene of gene.l
sal litigation—the Government was at law with the.,
whole people. This was a monstrous and anomalous
condition of a people. The effect of it was grisly.
ously felt in the influence it had on the habits and
the principles -of the community. The agitation
produced by this extraordinary state of litigation
pervaded all classes. Those who differed before
upon.the questions at issue, had their feelings exas-
perttted ; and those who had been previously neutral
had been drawn in to be parties, if not principals, in
the contention ; so that a spirit of discord had over-
spread the land, and banished conciliation from the
councils of the State. Litigation took the place of
asul the hostility to the Government Was gene.
nl, whilst all these circumstances tended directly to
foment 0. feeling in the Irish people hostile to Eng.
land. Ile might, perhaps, please the House better
by 'eying that the contrary was the case; but he was
mot disposed to flatter them in that manner. He was
bound•on such an occasion to state the fact, and, in
the discharge of a solemn duty, he would assure them,
that their perseverance in the measures of exclusion
would end in—separation. There were different
kinds of separation—there was separation in fact—
separation in law—and separation its inclination.—
The State would be undone, if the measures of the
Ministers should have the effect of withdrawing the
people ./roof the Government. But whether the
eeporation were that of fact or inclination—whether
it were actual or virtual, the bond between the
Government and the People would be dissolved,
and, tranquillity could only be preserved by the
employment of military force. Let the Goverment
persist in the disqualification of the people, and the
consequence will be—ruin. They would then do
what France could never do. He knew that such a
course of policy would dig the grave of Ireland, but
the gorgeous British Empire would follow. A
State with a population of sixteen millions, could
not well bear up against the disqualification of one-
fourth. Was it the act of an enlightened people
to strike out of the pale of the Constitution four
sollliorto-orf:4lwmost vatnable part ortir& PoPidt-
Con ?=-And for what reason ? For none, except that
the head of death was precipitating British Coun-
cils. The House might rely upon it, that the day
it decided against the Petitions, it would sign I
its own doom. Kings sometimes signed away the
sights of their subjects; and one part of a station
sometimes destroyed the privileges of a portion of
their fellow-subjects. But on that occasion the
Rouse had the scale of 'destiny in its hands. If
they threw away Ireland, Great Britain might be
-tried in the balance but would be found wanting.--a-
'Wear, heart] By casting off' Ireland they would
be digging their own grave, and might have for an '
epitaph—" Great Britain was ruined because she
visited to tax America, which, led to dismember-'.
meta; and disqualified Ireland, which produced se-
paration."—The Isiws by which the Catholics were
disqualified were contrary to the spirit of the Bri-
tish Constitution. No •State had the power to
enact such laws—eveu God himself could not or-
dain any enactment so contrary to one of his most
essential attributes—his justice. These Penal Laws
were as absurd as ..the law would be, which should
direct that a man should not hold a scat in Parlia-
ment because he had a black complexion ; nor be-
come a General because he had a brown oils!. Par-
liament had no authority to interfere with the
co4sciengeS men. As Representatives) of the

~~

I

, le

TIIE STATESMAN.

iedwe—re
,People
koshiglueethion
itihveesjuaroides
pbryopewrhtiiecsh tohfe
yCwarhoelitcrs
were but trustees for the peortion•
,ando.cutrirtyY of the rights of the People, an, were
-not justified in any interference with that inalienable_ were' while
at. the disposal of the very party by which
right of every man—the right of worshippiug God 'their civil rights had •been wrested from them:—
according to his conscience. He was aware, that Was there then no room for solicitation, unless the
the supreme power was authorized to take such men- Catholics avowed that power was their object? Was
sures as may be necessary to save. the State. But the fair claim to be restored to their right. to
as ownerjorify of a nation had .a right to force the ,upon them the charge of being actuated oily by
Oonaieleticescif the minority, so otlither had a minority ambitious views ? Ambition 1 Yes, truly, they hid
04 jes,teseaeogeeiseeeeragesawatjee sf such a right ambitions--they had .tbaL.sort of,ambitiou .which. a
Cooed becanttitatO the genera good, end was theree woman feels to protect her person from vjcilation,
fore not justifiable.. By general good,, he did not Raid that aH men feel to protect their properties and
mean general good according to the modern ac- , their persons from rapine and assassination. But
ceptation—the power of the State against the right lif the fair desire for such protection were to be
aud liberties of the people. So it was in America, branded with the name of ambition, what, he would
'when they wished to tax her- es it was now in Ire- , ask, was the ambition. of those who would build
land, when they wanted to perpetuate exclusion.— I their own power upon a refusal to acquiesce in it?
But he 'should contend, that it was neither for the Civil power was not the great object of the Catholic
general good, nor the particular good—but for the Claims; they had already, by the conceesions of
'g ratification and power of a particular sect, that 1793, received an ample share of it; they had been
this measure of disqualification for disuniting and I admitted into almost all offices ; and if they wanted
enfeebling the Empire was persisted in. There were I more power, he would take leave to say, that the
two descriptions of law—the law of God and the ! principle of their right to it was thus estrhished.a.-
municipal law. When Parliament pretended to i Was not a very considerable show of po4r, accord- '
dictate to the consciences of men, it exceeded its ; ing to the Constitution, lodged in the -third estate?
powers, and usurped the protince of the Deity. By i Did not the Commons of Great Britain and Ireland
resting the Church Establishment on such grounds, ; constitute the third estate? And did not a large
they opposed the law of God. There was a differ- ! proportion of those Commons consist of Irish Ca-
ence between nomination and eligibility. T be tholics ? How then could it be contended, that the
eligible to civil offices was the right of every British Irish Catholics were now not in the possession of
subject. When they took away that tight from the political power? And how could the danger of ad-
Catholic, by diigualifying him, they were guilty of
,witting them to it be insisted on? He was sorry td,
violence which they had no right to exercise. ' Sof find, by theossertione that were every day made on
for what reasons had they imposed the eiclution?— this important subject, and the arguments that were
For none, in fact, though professedly Cm manye Ist, considered as tenable, that Gentlemen were far from
for the Eucharist; 2d, for the Virgin Mary : 3d, •1 having that accuracy ,of information respecting it that
' for the spiritual power of the Pope. But to examine . its importance demanded, and stilt more grieved to
this latter, what was it? That the Spiritual Power ' find, that for want of such information they were!
of the Pope might lean to temporal patter. He dc- disposed to precipitate their country, into irretriev-
nied the inference. Parliament had, in fact, ad- I able slavery. Much now was. talked of security.—
that there was no foundation for it, by im-i These who opposed the Catholic claims called loud-
posing an oath upon the Catholic denying the in- Ily for security. lie, and those who advocated their
ference and the fact. And hating taken the distinc-iclaims too, called loudly for security ; they called
tion, Parliament bad no right to turn round and say, j for a departure from that erroneous policy which, by
that its own distinction was founded in error.' rendering the British name odious inlreland, rendered
Then the question of marriage was insisted upon as the British Empire insecure—Wear, hear!]—which i
a proof of the Temporal Power that must follow Iby rendering the British faith equivocal, rendered
from Spiritial Power.--But this also he denied.. the British Empire insecure; and which, by paralyz- 1
The legal merriageregulated the succession of pro-ling the energies of one-fourth of its population, ex- j
perty and itras matter of law ; but the religious ; posed the British Empire to destruction from the ;
marriage had nothing to do whatever with law. If. slightest shock of adverse fortune, by which it might
any parishioner suffered real injury from the inter- be visited. Wear, hear, hear !) Was it while ;
ference of the Clergyman, be had his action, and this great security was wanting, that we were to
would have his damages. Such a case had actsally, shrink from the danger of the Eucharist, from the ,
occurred in_ Ireland, and this action at km was terrors of the Virgin Mary's Divinity, and the sound
consequently a sufficient controul upon the spiritual of a Pretender's name? W I ere we at this perilous
power of the Clergy. Then it was contended, crisis to conjure up before ouraffrighted imagination.,
that the spiritual power interfered with the elle-1 the witches and hobgoblins, by an assent to whose
giance of subjects. If that were the case, no existence the former age was disgraced, blind to the
power in Europe could have good subjects. And real dangers by which we were encompassed ? Much I
yet there were Catholic Powers In Europe hating stress was laid on the influence .of the Pope, placed
subjects so good, that an Englishman would be ,as he was beneath the power of the enemy. But
ashamed to be such a one. If the Pope could I first it was to be observed, that this formidable per.
command the allegiance of subjects, how came he I son had no power in Ireland-; idly, that although
into his present situation—Ulear, heart ?—Had; his person was placed at the disposal of the French
he commanded the allegiance of the subjects of Emperor, no controul could be exercised over his
Germany, of France, of Italy, &c. ?—Where is will ; and, 3c11y,. that it was totally impossible any i
he now ?—ln a prison. Aye, but the University • communication could subsist b. tween him and the Ca- '
of Cambridge said, in its Petition, that ,he was 's tholics of Ireland. The notable remedy by which it
more powerful than ever. Yea, he was like the un- I was proposed to remedy this evil, *tamely, domestic
fortunate Monarch of Spain, who was also in prison, ! nomination, it was impossible to have recourse to.—
in greater power than ever for having been stripped ' The Veto was also unfortunately placed now beyond
of his dominions, and cast into a prison. But he our reach—this Veto, which was thought so valuate
should like to know, and he begged the House I ble and important a pledge, now that it was refused,
to attend to this question, whelher the. Right : but of which so little was thought when it lay
Honourable Gentleman opposite, had stipulated 1 before us. We might have had the Veto in the
any article in his treaties. with Spain or Portugal, for ! year 1795—we might have had the Veto in the
restricting hereafter the power of the Pope in theselyear 1805—we might have had it in 1808.—
countries. If he had not, he was sending armies to lAt all those periods it was unworthy of our ac-
Spain and Portugal at an ex; once of twenty mil- 1 ceptance ; but now we call aloud for it, when
lions annually to raise the power of Franca by the !it was no longer to be had. It was no longer
influence of the Pope in these countries. If it was to be had, and if .we said that it must be a condi-
really true that the Pope had this formidable corn- tion upon which the Catholics should receive their
mand over the allegiance of subjects, it was the duty rights, we said in other words that the Empire must
of Ministers, at a time when we were fighting for ibe destroyed. What other remedy then might we ex-
Church and State in the Peninsula, to guard against i pect to bear proposed for this evil ? Should there be
the future exercise of that formidable power amongst ; schools of proselytism established throughout the
the subjects of our Allies and against our interests. • land? Such a plan, he would do the present Ministers
—The Catholic Religion, he would contend, was as ; the justice to say, he thought them too sensible to
completely separated from temporal affairs as any `adopt. Should we deny the Catholics the power of
other. lie was aware, indeed, that no arrange. ! possessing or using arms? He believed their judgment
ments could ho had this Session which would have at i extended to the rejection of such a scheme. What
once the effect of releasing the Catholics, and secur-i remedy then remained? A continuance of the existing
ing the Church.—[Hear, hear! from the Treasury . disqualifications. Much would he be grieved if there
Benches]—but he would contend, that the only solid were no other, for that would be a separation. Ile had
'obstacle to ultimate conciliation was, the adverse ; a great respect for the English people; he had a great
spirit of the Ministers of the Crown. [Hear, hear! I respect for the venerable English Universities, by which
jrom the Opposition.] It was loudly asserted by j the light of knowledge was diffused throughout that
those who Isere instrumental in withholding from! people ; even in their errors those venerable bodies
the Catholics their just rights, that we fully tolerated , challenged respect ; but his respect did not go such
'their religion. Unfounded and perverse assertion I , lengths as would make him blindly approve those er-
; Far from tolerating we punished it ! Was the depri- i rors, or even conceal their danger ; and he would
vatiou of civil rights to those who professed it no; therefore say, that when the Universities of Cam-
punishment? Did he .speak it in an assembly of 1 bridge and Oxford preferred Petitions against the
Englishmen, and would it .be there contended, that ! Catholic claims, they had preferred a Petition for tha.
itawas no.pusgelemestte. that tiseesioprivatieweef poisiseparalon of one part of the -United kingdom from
vileges such as the ancestors of Englishmen had so; the other. If we wished to preserve their connexion
gloriously contended- for, and transmitted to theiei as it now stood, we would resort to far different me-
posterity as the most valuable inheritance they could': thods—we would not say to the people of Ireland,
bestow, that this was no punishment ? Again, it I the English people are determined to debar you from
was maintained that it was not a toleration of their , the enjoyment of those privileges upon which you
religion (kit was sought for by the Catholics; but ' set so much value. We would not say to the Eng-
,an admission to participate in political power.—ilish, the Irish people are hostile to 'the integrity
Against the falsehood of this assertion he must also . and well-being of the Empire ; but we would
raise his voice ;it was protection, not power, that anxiously cherish in the minds of both people
was the chief object of Catholic solicitation ; they, a confidence in the goodwill of each. of in
sought protection for their lives and properties ; , private life we were to seek, as the best me-,
ithe latter they wished to be protected against art& ; thod of promoting domestic concord, to in-
traryl taxation, and the former they wished to throw I spire a married couple with the opinion that
1.,
behind the broad shield of the Trial by Jury, that each. was the object of the other's most pro-
-1
most admirable of all human institutions, for it was' found
,aversiont could any rational mind expect
Ibut too true,.thot they, in the present 'state of things, that such means would produce the proposed effect, !
ewere strangers to its benefits. Ha Catholic were ar- .or think, for a moment, that they were not admire-
reigned for any suspected delinquency,' what availed' bly calculated to make the parties recoil with dis-
it him that a Jury was impanelled to pronounce upon I gust from each other% embrace; and seek, in a divorce,
his case, if it were, as it most generally was, composed for that pence, which their union would be thence-
of partisan Jurors, called together by a partisanShriff? forward incapable of bestowing? Assuredly not;
Gentlemen mast be aware of how many cases there and yet a mode of conduct which would infal-
were, hi which a Catholic would not be permitted , libly produce discord, alienation, and ultimate
to be upon a Jury If the Subesheriff happened to ; separation between any two individuals possessed
be a partisan, and the nfftne of a Catholic appeared I of the common feelings of human nature we fool-
upon the. panel, the officer of the Court was or- iehly supposed would strengthen and multiply the
dered to strike it out. To Catholics then was re- ties by which one nation is bowel to another. A
1
fused even thalindulgeuce we 'panted to foreigners, far better method of obtaiulag this desirable end
who claimed and were allowed the tricdieletens would be to sedtdously cultivate every principle' of


.1 •

. •

.

. •
;-••

,

the
•• .
s- 7,
to,T
isai
eiaymon al
itrgefidc:sar
oalyri
abiti benefits
011fl.d Illg
(Ohtu,,,,r
tenioa.,:kl.,i
sound
1 aprnirietyotai ncdomgmooadne
wpiriliv'ilege
and, hi order to more effectually doing so,
counsel realer from the eloquent silen:l4ere
off
il part of our population as have refused to petitice , j than to the futile arguments of those Ito trout;{ i hurry us to destruction. Every- principle
Treason, and of exalted feeling, was favourable tOttleii:i cause of the Catholics.
the other inhabitants of the • e appeal(
was universally influenced by such principles; is.
(shock migl might appeal *mime, if their conduct
strike with the rapidity 'mcaithtoe ctehteitrwe°trold
was this a cause
r:t.:11i.,:ix;,,,:.
I the truth would• ' I"'
rm.timis
of
mill
ptifwilreikeoealemci wet
mhtrheei
!t
and wretched
ihit
lestre,dsvt:heuargumentstouch employed
o f an
n ii
a againstrHarlequin's
Y u i injured
a;
r:e (la
1 n hi
: :
circumference a
Tice;
that the prouclocseoadaNavy
ocean by the
urtorioofridiw.,t,hhaeitscernhitliib;vgieeti:stoihitipieno.‘alvi,,i...l
crabellaldecibteo boobrsener ,
edown
at byin argumentscon consequence
qu eucaes
ofeh a
thel r::
R°
• asheenseywiertd'edsettaebsiteabileu.dgclie'hielt
osefntthewlhloouhsead, tahoetrehmeailgdht a
ible manythehl
arguments l i
which.
question of E '
had been urged on the
) r
4 that c
h i
itihget
a inhabitants
ba rbta.hrei sTnichon,
efghl eciisrtihei
git(ali
;ins:ct
Members pp,.
he would beg permission to advert on msoannlcetir4eZ;'
to avoid repeating what had been frequently htatei
formerintheoc;:rtoednsit,4
heparhtadofabjlteaisilpedtseehri°thaitiolie-
ontich t
had the honour of addressing to the &use. The
;Honourable Members to wliom he had alluded, had
possiblyitateheiaiprdi
wve-errye ina
1 vsse.orunlmdeanitsowhhaisceh heard, that
made
eat they
thitemwasso
Government bad been a nuisance in !reined. The
j Catholic Religion was another cause of the barbarous
manners imputed to them; so that if both causes and
effect were real, it would seem a desirable consul.
mation that the Irish should get rid both their
of
government and their religion. They had possibly
been told that the Constitution had been defined and
; settled by the Act of Settlement, and that the Ca.
1 tholics had been by this Act for eves excluded from
I
the privileges they now claimed; but they would
; now hear that hostile as it was in letter, the spiritof
Ithat Act was not uufavourable to the Catholics. The
I Catholics composed a considerable part of the Em.
, .
psre, and one of two things was necessary, either to
t extend the Constitution to die Empire, or to con.
j tract the Empire so as to make it the favoured reli.
gion. While the measure of union, however, was in
1 agitation, a different sort of language was held
with respect to the Act of Settlement from that
1 which was now adopted. The oath required under
j it was then declared in the clause drawn up by the
Ministers of the day to be provisional: it was now
I
said to be fundamental—a doctrine which it was ob-
vious, would, if adhered to, render the Parliament
and the Government guilty of a manifest and most
indecent breach of faith. In the very teeth of this
Act of Settlement, the Government could introduce
into his Majesty's army foreigners of the Catholic
l persuasion ; was this because they thought the sa-
-1 atoeutistrts oould have no effect Wpm the consciences
I of those persons? or had they Any claim to farcur
1 which it was thought expedient to withhold from
j his Majesty's subjects ? The Act of Settlement did
exclude, at the time it was passed, the Catholics
from certain privileges, and perhaps the combination
which then existed in Europe made such exclusion
necessary ; but in 17g3, the Catholics were made
part of the Commons, that was part of the third
' Estate in Ireland ; by the Act of Union they had
been recognized in a similar manner as part of the
Commons of Great Britain ; and did not all this
j show that the principle 6f exclnsion was no longer
necessary, and might be abandoned altogether with
safety ? If it were deemed insufficient to do so by
! those who objected to the adniission of Catholics
1 into the Senate, he could ask them, and the question
I would be difficult to answer, why they admitted
them in such immense proportions into the army and
; navy ? He would desire them to enquire of the Ad-
, minds and Generals under whose commatid they well
1 placed—how they conducted themselves—Ykarij
I —he would desire them to consult the public papers,
and learn how many of them died in the service of
the country. [Hear, hear !] Ile would desire
,
them to learn how many lay wounded in the boy-
.
pitals, and that hopeless of ever risiwz to corn.
nand those armies, in the ranks of uhich they
bad bled.—[Load erica if !Ler, hear, h...art]—
rie"would.not fear to appeal to the country for their
character—he would not take it from the Ministers.
He would implore the Representatives of that coun-
try not to reject the Petition of those that were ever
ready to throw themselves between her and &ger.
Tie woultamplore them not to contrive to vex with
odiotis disqualifications a loyal and merltoriousycee
4104 -au d in so.sleingire-vouierafplore theirto nee.-
- serve then England. Appealing to their justice, he
would point to the soil of Spain and Portugal, se-
' turated with the blood of (rich Catholics, spilt to
augment the glory of the British name. lie would
remind them of the principles which had placed their
*March on his Throne. Ile would arouse and
! their humanity against a doctrine that would set
fellow-citizens to cut each other's throats, in order
i •
to compel uniformity of opinion on certain meta-
! physical points'', of no importance whatsoever ; and
' he would abjure them not to suffer the country to
he degraded by disputes so senseless and disgusting-
You are come here, continued tho Right Honour-
able Gentleman, with More than wonted animation,
while his spirit seemed to rise paramount to a great
degree of fatigue under which he evidently labonred
e--You are come here to discuss an Irish question—
shall I describe to you the manner in which yon
ought to settle it. Let England say to Ireland,.%,sse
must cordially unite, or both must miserably perish.
And let the answer of Irishmen be, as it certchilv
will 9 e
we are willing, most willing to ?mhrace •
proposal, but we must have our liberties, and th
hav-
ing-our liberties, in your service we will be lavish of
our lives.
Doctor DUICIENAN said, that the claims for
which the Right Hon. Gentleman contended, cou.d
only be effected in one way, and that was by the re-
peal of all those laws referred to in the oaths of 0-
premery, by the repeal of all tests and, corporation

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