The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-06-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-Tnuasime.
Lord Barham was introduced by Lords Gambier and
Caithorpe, and took the oaths and his seat.
The Beer Bill, and Scotch Confirmation Bill were
branghtup from the House of Commons, and read a first
time.
A Noble Lord, whose name we could not hear, pre-
sented a petition against the Beer BM
STATE OF IRELAND.
The Doke of LEINSTER presented a petition from
the Philanthropic Society in Ireland, praying that some
measure might be adopted for the labouring poorof that
'country, founded on the plan of Mr. Owen.
Lord CLARE said he Should support the prayer of
'this petition, becalm the peasantry of Ireland were in a
most distressed and degraded state, and lie conceived it
absolutely necessary to adopt immediate measures for
'their relief.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
The Doke of DEVONSHIRE rose to bring forward
the motion of which he had given notice respecting the
State of Ireland. His Grace began by adverting to the
p incessant and alarming disturbances by which that no-
happy country had been agitated from time immemorial,
And contended that such a state of things could never
o kayo existed if there had not been soinettliug wrong in
the Government. A bad Government always produced
bad sal eets; whereas, under a mild and beneficent Go-
vernment. rubjects were generally peaceable and con-
tented. It was recorded in the history of Ireland that
that country had beets in a state of insurrection for• cen-
turies past. It was the duty of Parliament to institute
an inquiry into the causes of this dreadful state of
things, and to adopt an entirely new system with a
view of putting an end to it. All persons agreed in re-
presenting the state of Ireland as most alarnrn;r,, and in
thinking that a remedy was absolutely necessary ; but
whenever a call was made for inquiry, and for a remedy,
it was passed over without notice. It was a reproach to
the Parliament, that instt ad of adopting any wise or
conciliatory measures, the evils of Ireland were always
aggravated by the adoption of severe penal laws on all
occasions. Instead of any liberal concessions haying
ever been made, every thing like • relaxation of the seve-
rity of the penal lass was uniformly refused. A great
majority of the people of Ireland were deprived of their
civil and political rights on account of their religious
faith ; and it was only by abandoning that unjust and im-
politic system, that any hope couldever be entertained of
securing the loyalty and affection of those proscribed
people. The narrow policy of those who had long borne
a.sway in the Councils of Ireland, had kept alive that
jealousy and discontent: which bad given permanebce to
the misfortunes of that country. Tbe policy of those
persons was never to discuss any question that could hive
amelioration for its object, and on which the safety of the
• country depended. Their policy was to usurp and mono-
polize power, and keep the great majority of the people,
a state of insulting exclusion. They could not bear the

idea of giving those people a triumph; and therefore ;Us-
cord and jealousy must be perpetrated. In short the Go-
vernment of Ireland was held by a small faction, which
went undef the name of Orangemen. This was a melan-
choly state of things which should no longer-be suffered
to continue. The affections of the Irish people could never
be relied on so long as there existed one law for Protes-
tants and another law for Roman Catholics. The Orange
I faction of Ireland was odious to the great mass of the
people, and there would never be any thing like tranquil-
lity in the country until that faction was pat down. In
the last Session of Parliament the great question of the
tithe system had been adverted to. Having then de-
livered his opinion at some length on that question, he,
slibuld not dwell upon it at present, particularly so, as,
there was then before the other House of Parliament a
measure for making an alteration in that system. The
tithes of Ireland constituted a tax that was most burden•
some to the people of that country ; and he hoped the Bill
before the other House would propose some salutary
amelioration in that system. He would, above all things,
urge the necessity of granting liberal concessions to th
Catholics with regard to civil and political privileges;,
Ise Would recommend an equitable asrangemeot with re.:
gard to tithes; a total exclusion of the Orange faction
from the undue mcaopoly of power which they possess•
eel and an equal and vigorous administration of tali.
law. If any measures of amelioration were now in pro.
grass, he hoped they wouldsbe effectual measures. He
had formed great expectations from the appointment of
the Noble Marquess who was now at the head of the Go-
vernment in Ireland ; but it was much to be regretted
that his views and opinion respecting the state of that
country had not been communicated to that House. The
Noble Marquess must have made some communications
to Government ; and he (the Duke of Devonshire) was'
curious to know whether that Nohleman.still adheredlo
the opinion's which lie had formerly profissed respectini,
the affairs of Ireland ; and if he did adhere to those opi-
nions, it was fit to, have it ascertained whether they had
been acted on. After some further observations,: the No-
ble Duke concluded by inuring certain Resolutions to '
the following effect:—That it was the opinion of that
House that the general stete of Ireland was of a most
alarming nature ; that the extraordinary powers granted
to the Government for producing tranquillity in that
country, bad not produced the intended effect ; that the
House would be ready to concur in any measure which
might be brought forward with a view of altering this
melancholy state of things ; that experience had fully
shown that none of the ricans hitherto resorted to, fbr
effecting that object, had answered the end; and that
It was the ditty of that House to apply an effectual reme-
dy without further delay.
Earl BATHURST said that the proposition of the
. Noble Duke went to the extent of calling on the House
to declare, that the system of Government aetbd upon in
frelandavas fundamentally wrong • and as this was a pro-
position on which he must differ from the Noble Duke,
he could not concur in his motion. He denied that the
system in Ireland was fundamentally wrong. On the
contrary, the British Government had, during a period
of several years, conceded many privileges to the people
of Ireland; and given them many commercial advant-
ages, even to the prejudice, in some inbtancee, of the Eng.
dish people. The importation of grain from Ireland into
Great Britain had been permitted without any duties, at
a time when duties were imposed on grain imported from
all other countries; and, indeed, the kith cultivators
Might i:• this instance, be said to have enjoyed a monopo
ly of the market. His Lordship now proceeded to enter
into an enumeration of the advantages conferred upon
Ireland, by the establishment of many wholesome regu-
lations. An improved and beneficial system of police
had been established there already. There had also''
been an improvement in the administration of justice, in,
a general revision of the Magistrates, in the removal of
many, and the appointment of others more competent.—
There were besides some measures materially affecting
the domestic economy of Ireland. Great mischief had
arisen from the power the Grand Janet had of imposing
local taxes. This power, constituted a great grievance.
So great was that grievance, that at the time when the
taxes of Ireland amounted only to fear millions, the
takes laid on by Grand Juries were little less than one
million. This evil was removed by Act of Parliament
Money had been granted for the erection of public works,
which tended greatly to the advantage of the lower or-
ders in Ireland. As to the plan recommended by the
Noble Duke (Leiester), who presented a petition from
Ireland this day, be assured him that Government was
endeavouring to give every possible degree of attention
to it. In It9is, when the English and Irish Exchequer
were consolidated, Ireland was discharged from the
obligation of her exclusive debt, and this year the
country was relieved from all her assessed taxes.
It was not for them to say that Ireland was op-
pressed by a coercive system of Government. As to
conciliatory measures, such bad been adopted alrea-
dy. He did not think the subject of Catholic Etna°.
cipation ought to he introduced at this time, when so
many differences of opinion existed on it, and those who
opposed that question ought not to be marked down as
the enemies of Ireland. With respect to the motion now
made, it differed very little from that introduced last year
by a Noble Marquess, who proposed several measures
which had since been adopted. That 'Noble Marquess.
recommended the lowering of taxation, and that was
since done. Thee there was no proof of any neglect of
duty on the part of his Majesty's Government. He did
not wish to give the Noble Duke's. motion a direct nega-
tive, and therefore he should move the previous question.
Lord CLIVE spoke in explanation.
Lord CLINTON denied that any improvenient had
taken place in the finances of Ireland, by any measure of
Government; for the measures alluded to by the Noble
Earl were adopted as matters of necessity on account of
the poverty of the Irish people. The evils of Ireland
were innumerable, and the tithe system in.which no im-
provement bad been made, was eine of the greatest. A
great part of the grievance of tithes arose from the abo-
lition of the tithes of agistment which caused the chief
oppression of that tax to fall on the lower orders, and op
to this moment the tithe system in Ireland gave rise to
confusion, riot, and bloodshed. Tithes in Ireland wire
wholly different from what they were in England. The
farms in Ireland were very small, being generally from
5 to 20 acres each, and if the cultivators of these little
farms refused to pay the demands made on them by the
Clergy, they. were immediately dragged before a Court
where a partial ecclesiastic acted as J udge and Jury: and
they never could rely on having justice done to them.—
There was in !reload an increasing and mischievous po-
pulation ; it was necessary to establish some system of
manufactures by which they could be fully employed ;
and then Ireland 'might be converted into a mine of
wealth. lie would recommend it to- Parliament to repeal,
to the very last letter, the whble of that abominable penal
Code, which begun in the reign of Queen Anne, and
constituted the greatest mass of oppression that ever ex:
lsted in any country. Here the Noble Lord quoted a
work publislird by Lord Carteret, which described the
' cruel oppressions suffered by the people in consequence
of the atroilom Penal Code ; and these sentiments were

uttered -by a Protestant, and a man always attached to
the Government. It was necessary that Ireland should be
relieved from the horrible oppression of an Ecclesiastical
Establishment, 4ere there were churches without flocks.
If there were to be Clergy in Ireland, let them be paid ;
but as to paying them by tithes, that was quite out of
the question. Such a system could not go on. The
Noble Lord next alluded to the triumph which the
Orangemen had lately gained, when their Chief Master
was suffered to resist the power of the House of Commons
With impunity. He had read the account in the Papers.
eee(A cry of " Order.")—Such was the insolence •of
,Orangemen, and such the irritation excited among the
bulk ,of the people of Ireland, that no one could tell what
the, cOnseqoenees mie;ht be if another Hoche or Humbert
were to land with foreign hostile troops in that country.
Earl DARNLEY said, if Parliament did not go to the
bottom of that evil which disfigured an island which na-
ture had' designed to be the best bulwark of Britain, that
island would ultimately be the cause of its destruction.—
All the Noble Secretary of State had said was, that cer-
tain regulations had been adopted from time to time
which produced little or no advantage, and for which the
Ministers were not entitled to any credit. Pledges for
amelioration had been riven, but never redeemed. In
the other House Of ParLansent many weary hours had
been spent in siiscessioas on the state of Ireland without
any beneficial result ; and at last a triumph was given to
that faction who were the greatest enemies of the coun-
try. A measure was introduced for the commutation of
tithes, and he did not think he should ever see the con-
sumation of it, as he unr!erstood all parties in [rebind
were dissatisfied with the Bill now before the other House.
The Church party looked on it as an arack on their
rights, and the farmers conceived it would impose increas-
ed burdens on them. He therefore despaired of any
thing effectual being chine for the relief of Ireland. Thut
country bad always been governed on a principle of
disunion : ever since the &Lys of Henry 11. there was no-
thing but oppression there ; and the laws of Queen Anne
consummated those oppressions. A line of demarkation,
had constantly been kept tip between the Irish and
English. The Irish detested the very name of Eng-
land, because the policy of the latter country had ever
been that of exclusion and injustice. All those
things surely were sufficient to induce their Lord-
ships to institute an inquiry into the state of Ire-
land. He begged their Lordships to consider that every
argument, founded on justice and policy, had been
used in that House in favour of Ireland, and they were
only met by vague assertions and declarations, that every
thing had been done in favour of Ireland which could be
done. But why were not the penal laws against the Ca-
tholics removed? Why did that House reject the Bill for
giving relief to the Catholics? What danger could have
arisen from the admission of six Catholic Peers into that
House. Some Noble Lords had talked of danger from al-
lowing privileges to Catholics ; but did they ever consider
what danger was likely to arise from keeping six millions of
Catholic subjects in a state of degradation and hostility ;
and did it occur to them that the Catholics might become at-
tached to the Bourbons? He contended that Catholic Eman-
cipation was absolutely necessary to the tranquitlity of Ire-
I land, and safety of England. No.msn had a higher re-
spect for the talents and virtues of the Noble Marquess at
the bead of the Government of Ireland than himself; bathe
was astonished when be saw him accepting that great trust
under such a Cabinet as now qxisted in this country ; for in
taking the Government while/flie present system existed, he
must have foreseen the impossibility of governing the
country to any advantage. The present Administration of
Ireland seem to have all the colours of the rainbow, and to
be inconsistent in every thing, except a determination to
keep their places. Under the present system the peasants
of Ireland would ever be in a state of insurrection and re-
bellion: Was it consistent with reason that these peasants
would ever lay aside their animosities against the Govern-
ment, when they were obliged to pay two sets of clergymen,
while rich Protestant graziers living near them paid no
tithes at all ? The English peasants lived in a state of com-
parative comfort; but those of Ireland were the most
wretched in the world; for almost every thing they pro-
duced from the lots of ground they cultivated, was dragged
from them.—lt was the paramount. duty of every landed
proprietor in Ireland to give as much employment as possi-
ble to the peasantry. Of this the Noble Duke who opened
tais debate had given an excellent example ; but as long as
the Government acted iu its present spirit sod systein,he felt
no hope that any refjrm would take place in the state of
-retain&

Lord GOSFORD said that the state of Ireland was
most dangerous. The House ought not to separate till
something was done. The affliction that had beset Ire•
land was a mat-administration. The country was in that
state, that if something were not done, the consequences
would be ruinous.

Lord CALEDON wished them to resort to any change,
rather than continue the present system of mal-adaduis-
Vinton.
Lord MARYBOROUGH admitted the importance of
the subject. He acknowledged the able manner in
which the motion was brought forward. No oue knew
better than the Noble Duke the state or Ireland, and the
means of alleviating its condition ; but he could not
admit that there had been nothing but coercion since
the Union. It was an unjust reflection on the Govan-
went and on Parliament. He felt it his duty to oppose
the motion. To agree to the Resolution would be cruel
towards Parliament as well as the Government. In the
statement that had been made, some points had been
omitted that ought to have been noticed. It was said
that nothing had been done towards promoting the edu-
cation of the poor ; and that in the face of the ample
Reports -made by the Commissioners appointed on the
subject The schools, of which there were many, h sul
been overwhelmed with abuse; the Commissioners in-
vestigated them all ; and now there were nut schools
better conducted. Those Commissioners went so far as
to advise a seminary for the education of school.
masters. So much for saying that nothing had
been done for the education of the lower orders
in Ireland. Then, as to other points :----There
haul been six new harbours constructed by authority of
the British Parliament; there had been nearly one mil-
lion granted to protect the interests of trade ; sums had
been voted for other public works ;-91.10,0001. to pro.
mote inland navigation: and all these things had been
done by that Parl ament which sd neglected Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.). To the seminary atlllaynooth there had
been granted 200,0001. There was another point that
ought not to be forgotten—the adoption of means for
the building of glebe houses to promote the residence
of the Clergy and the Gentry. There had been ar-
rangements for building several Inutdred churches, glebe
houses, &c.; and the whole batt taken place since the
Union. The attention to Irish objects had never been
ont of the view of Parliament ; and it had n•ut been pe-
culiar to any Admigistration. He would not eKeropt the
Administration of Noble Lords opposite, though he
could recollect only two boons they had granted to Ire-
land. The first was the hisarrection Act—(mar, hear)
—at least it was prepared, and found in their office
when they were unfortunately removed. He was no
friend to that Act; but the peaceful atul loyal were en-
titled to be protected. It was the merit of Administra-
tion since the Union, that they did not disdain to adopt
measures proposed by those who might not generally co-
operate with the Government. The Commission respect-
, lag Courts of Justice, for instance, originated with Sir

J. Newport. The Commission he doubted not would be
productive of great advantages. There was also a Com-
miision on the subject of the Irish Revenue, which bed
also produced advantages to the revenue as well es some
able reports. Therefore to say that Parliament had not
been mindful of the interests of Ireland was contradicted
by facts. There were many useful measures before Par-
liament as to Catholic emancipation ; be should be
glad to see it carried • but at the present mo-
ment he believed it to he impracticable. That was
Iris decided opinion. There was a carious circumstance
in the present discussion. All praised the talents of the
Lord Lieutenant, yet his measures were condemned; they
were called milk and water, and he knew not what.
But all the Noble Lords opposite who were so wonder-
fully anxious to assist the Government, bad not proposed
one measnre for the benefit of Ireland. Many subjects
connected with the interests of Ireland were attended
with great difficulties. The two Bills on the subject of
tithes proved such fact. He thought that tithes were
property as decidedly as other species of property. They
could not make one law for the clergy, ant another for
the lay proprietors ; and yet more titan one half the
tithe property belonged to lay impropriators, who ex.
acted more severely than the clergy. Those Bilk might
be lost—he hoped they would not; but if they were lost
now, the Lord Lientenant would never lose sight of the
subject. .There were other equally beneficial measures.
The Constable's Act, the arrangement respecting the
distilleries, &c. All these proceedings proved that sw-
cessive Administrations and the Parliament had not
been unmindful of the interests of Ireland; and that
great efforts had been made to promote the advantages of
that part of the kingdom. As he had long been con-
nected with that pkrt of the United Kingdom, he cool!
not but feel a deep interest in her welfare ; however, as
the motion went to impute blame where blame was not
doe, he felt it to be his duty to give the 'notion his deci-
ded opposition.
Lord HOLLAND was astonished at the grounds on
which their Lordships were recommended to reject this
motion. The speeches and arguments against the mo-
tion dwelt much on the " boons" that had been grant-
ed to Ireland, and contended that inquiry was therefore
unnecessary. The object of those who urged and de
feniled the motion, desired that there should be exami-
nation into the cause of the disturbances; and even-
those Noble Lords who said so much about the boons
granted to Ireland, did not deny that disturbances ex-
isted ? They could not. The question, then, was re-
tickled to a very narrow compass ; whether it would not
be advisable to have a Parliamentary pledge that the sub-
ject should be investigated. The Noble Lords opposite
had not denied that discontents amounting almost to re-
bellion now existed in Ireland; but then they would make
it out what ungrateful persons those Irishmen must be,
after all the boons that bad been granted to them—
after all the schools that bad been established—the
roads that had been made, and the public works that
had been promoted. Noble Lords were fond of advert-
ing to what had formerly been done, as if this (-nese
lion could be answered by reference to what Bills had
been passed by the Parliament. if the Government co:ild
justify their proceedings, and the present state of Ireland;
boy statements about the great works that had been pro-
moted, bow mach stronger a defence could Napoleon have
preferred on like ground.? When En'gland and other
Powers were opposing his progress, and when they were
complaining of his system, Napoleon might bare only de-
sired his opponents to look at his public works—at the
roads he had formed—at the palaces he had built—and
at the improvements he had promoted. The Noble Lords
when they spoke of Ireland, adopted somewhat similar
language, only they left oat all about the " improve-
ment" of Ireland. They were also fond of adverting to
the Administration of 1806, but that subject was now so
stale, that he knew not how it could be made tolerable
for any future occasion, except some of the Noble Lords
opposite would resign their seats for a time in favour of
Noble Friends around laugh.) That might
afford the chance of rendering reference to the Adini`iis-
nation of his Noble Friends of some interest. He, how-
ever, almost disdained to take any notice of such refer.
ences; they had been so frequently made, and so often
answered. But he (Lord Maryborongh) could not avoid
adverting to what had been said about the Insurrection
Act. He saw it in the office in 1806; it was true it was
prepared at that time, but having seen it he declared that
be should enter his protest against it. The vote he gave
in its favour, when it was presented by Noble Lords op.
hesite, was the only vote that lie ever regretted giving ;
gave it, because he shrunk from the charge of incon-
sistency, as be could not then assign reasons for differing
from his Noble Friends. They had also been mentioned
as having tried to do a bit for the Catholics. They had
made such effort, and the consequences were some proof
of their sincerity. On that question they went out of
office, a proceeding that seemed to be quite out of the mind
of the Noble Lord (Maryborongh) who had recently spok-
en. That Noble Lord, the House he'd learned, hail onto
wavered on this question, but now his opinion was de-
cided. He thought the Catholics ought to be emanci-
pated, and yet he held an office with those who would
not suffer the question to be agitated. To return, how-
ever, to the question more immediately before the
House, their Lordships would bear in mind that the
resolution did not say any that nothing had hrea
done by the Parliament for Ireland • but it said the t the
freqnent recurrence of suspensions Of the laws and of dis-
turbances, made it imperative on their Lordships to in-
quire into the cause of such constantly-recurring calami-
ties. Would their Lordships say that there was nothing
wrong in Ireland ?—(iiear, hear.) They hail ventured oat
no such assertior, and the Resolution only welt to pledge
the House to instiote inquiry. Those who supported the
previous question might do so on the ground that it was
right to leave all to the Executive Government. it was to
left to the Executive Government last year. He then
_protested against such proceeding, and now, on more ma-
ture reflection, he was more decidedly against leaving the
subject with the Executive Government. At that time
the Noble Lord (Liverpool) at the head of !ha Tretssay.„
said that " the evil ought to be probed," and that it was
"deep in thetrame of society." With such opinion.; as
to the state of Ireland, who would not have imagined that
that the Noble Lord would have set to work to probe that
evil that was so deep in the frame of society ? Who would
not have expected that he would have dug and delved till
he had discovered remedies fur such deeply-fixed evils !
But instead of appearing with any labouring discovered
jewel, they heard of two crumbs that were to satisfy all
wants. 'rimy were told of the two Tithe Bills; but as
yet the House haft not got them, and, from ail h.s heard,
they were not likely to have them soon, nor In so satisfac-
tory a form as might be desired, And when they came, he
thought they were not very likely to pass that lio.iss
this Session. They were to.d that much was doing to
make those measures effective ; there was a v. st deal of ma-
chinery; they were to be " woven ioto one vast web ;" bat
where there was so much preparation, and where so much
of the Session was exhausted, he entertained fa nt hopes.—
He bad invariably observed that, under such circumstances,
the " Noble Penelope" who preaidedin that House, anew', I
Iby his handmaids with many lamentstions and some tows.
contrived to unravel the web. Siich, he ex;ireted, w0..1 I
be the fate of the Tithe Bills. Tne lord Lieutenant a I
been mentioned, and he had no hesitation iu saying, Hatt he