The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-03-21 00:00:00

THE 1

Sleet 1810, not fewer than IS clerks hid died of pulmo-
nary, complaints, nod disorders arising from sedentary
ItaMts. The Honourable Member had alluded In the
grant to • private secretary, which had formerly been
ceder the consideration of the House. Status to pri-
vate secretaries ROM now discontinued. It was true;
however, that some of the senior clerks were allowed
newspapers. This allowance had by nn means 'Wended
to all, and it vfas now farther restricted. The Honour-
able Member accused him of having introduced a system
of pluralities. His informer could bare told him, that
be had set his face against pluralities. He had dim'.
leveed any clerk from holding any other situating *lib
oat his leave, which leave he never granted. The Hoe.
Member hail said that he would dernif two or three
days of his valuable time to armoire the estimates. He
most decline this offer, for the accuracy of arithmetic
which the Honourable Member had displayed in that
House could not be a snakiest recommendation for such

employment. A difference of 2,090,0n01, or 3,0110,00111.
more or len, might not be inconvenient on the other
side, hut on his(Lord•Palmerston's) side it would be very
inconvenient. Weeks. and not dsys, were required for
performing this duty, which listed several months, and
they who performed it were not overpaid for it. The
Honourable Gentleman was quite mistaken in supposing
that there was an allowance for publishing the monthly
army list. The lion. (Jeannine did not enderstand the
difference between yearly and monthly lists, and here
again it appeared what a precious assistant be would have
in the Hon. Member.—(A laugh on the ministerial side.)
The annual list could not be published, except at a loss.
The Hon. Gentleman had also proposed an establish-
ment of fifteen persons at fifteen thousand pound., and
this was what he would call economy. The names of
clerks had been so commingled by the Hon. Gentleman,
that each rase could not be answered. His private se-
cretary received no more than his services merited ; and
others who assisted in the laborious duty of arranging
and managing accounts were in a similar situation. The
routine of office and the manipulation of his (Lord Pal•
merston's)papers could not be performed, without ouch al-
lowances as were given. Mr. Sullivan he had appointed
at once, instead of a former clerk who had retired.—
With respect to bis services, though be (Lord Palmer-
ston) might be partial to him, the more he inquired, the
more reason he found to believe that he had acted
rightly in this appointment. He only received one thou-
sand pounds. But prospectively the salary was fixed at
twelve hundred pounds. The Hon. Gentleman asked
how many young men had been introduced in the last
year. He lLord Palmerston) had appointed six tempo-
rary clerks last year, with a distinct understanding that
no retired allowances were. to be given. The Noble
Lord thee went into a comparison of the present expense
of the department, with the charge which had been
made upon it in former years. In the year 11106, the
vote had been fifty-six thousand pounds, and the num-
ber of persons employed one hundred and five; in the
present year one hundred and six persons were employed.
and the vote was forty-four thousand pounds only. It
was evident, therefore, that between 1906 and 1822, a
considerable reduction in salaries must have tales place.
The period of 1792 had been adverted to; bat let the
amount of duty done in that year be looked at. In 1792,
the number of papers sent out of throffice seas seven thou-
sand two hundred, and 21 persons were employed. In
the last year the number of papers sent oat bad been
99,722, and the number of persons employed 134; so
that if the persons employed had increased in number
five or six fold, the quantity of business done bad in-
creased in a much larger degree.
Colonel DAVIES thought that the Noble Laid oppo-
site had taken rather an unfair tone towards his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Hume.) He (Colonel Davies) objected to
the bringing in of junior clerks at reduced salaries, if
large superannuation allowances were to be given to the
seniors displaced: there was no economy in such a
course. The Noble Lord opposite was to be judged.
not by what belied saved, but by what he might have
saved. He(Colonel Danes) believed that there had
been a saving to the colony from the examination of
the arrear accounts, but that saving had been made at a
very heavy expense.
Mr. HUME observed that an allusion had been made
to his mistake of millions, but on a review of the Navy
!Unmans it would be found that the sum was almost
identically what he bad mentioned, it appearing to be,
on the examination of these papers, 17,738,000/. The
Noble Lord disputed, but did not disprove his state-
meets. The Noble Lard spoke of 901. but he would ask
him, had the youngest clerk in his office less than ea
a-year? He (Mr. II.) admitted that Mr. Sullivan might
be a very meritorious officer; bat perhaps then were
other reasons for his getting an increase of salary. He
contended. notwithstanding the assertions of Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the other side, that if reductions were made,
there was still room for further.

Lord PALMERSTON said the Hon. Gentleman ac.
aped hint of having given in increase of salary to a
person in his office, insinuating—or at least tieing words
which warranted the inference, that the iosrease was
given because that person was privately connected with
him. So far from that being the rase. be conlil assure the
Hon.tiontlentan no increase at all took place. Atonetime
the Hon. tientlentan accused him of giving an increase;
at another time he word the tables, and awned him
of not giving an increase ; thus proving his own incon-
sistency, and wasting the time of the House.
Mr. BENNET contended that his Honourable
Friend (Mr. Hume) was not open to any charge of in-
, consistency.
Mr. W. SMITH did not think that the Noble Lord
bad explained the charge which had been made of a
clerk having left the War Office for the Commissariat,
and then returned to the War Office, receiving a retiring
pension from the Commissariat.
Lord PALMERSTON confessed he was unable to
affirm or contradict the assertion which had been made
relative to the individuals in question, as it Mint have
occurred long before be (Lord Palmerston) came into the
office.
The question was then put and carried.
The next vote was for 26,953/. for the Army Pay
Office.
Colonel DAVIES thought that the office of Patinas-
tertieneral might very well be dispensed with, fist as
he did not expect to be able to pewuade the Committee
of this, he would direct himself to the present high ex-
penditure of the department. In 1797 the autonnt of sa-
laries was I 1,340/.; in lS! the'charge was upwards of
26,000/. when the extent of the army was not to he eons-
pared with what it was in the former period. The sa-
!erica now amounted to 19,0001. and this, it was to be
remembered, was fur an office which was ministerial,
and the duties of which might be performed by the
Bank of England, without the present office at all. It
was an office whiet hail undergooe scarcely any revi-
sion, and was capable of a great deal. He should not
himself propose any amendment, but would support one
made by any other person. e.
Sir C. IA M: said, there nos no office in the State
which had undergone so much revision as this. It had
been subjected to the consideration of a Committee in
1791, 1797, ISII7, 1811, and 1517 ; and of all these,
he would venture to say, that not one of these Coonitit-
tees ever said the office was useless. Yet the Hoo. Mem-
ber comedown and said that ail these Committees were
wrong, and knew nothing of the nature of the offiee;
and what had eSCaII4%I the acute investigation of Lord
Colchester anal Mr. Burke, who had been Chairman of
two of she Committees. the lion. hisushre's saewity had
d s•o, crest. The I 100. Gentleman talked without Itsowitig
any thing about the matter, seperficiallv, not to say ie•
6 serenity, when be called this office a 31inisterial office.

.1114. payirg et lialf-pay. he Issliovotl, could sot be can't'
Unr the Mori. Slember talked of Aft Maul
bring Moir to take all the besittess ont of his bawls. In
ibis, too. be was finite wring, sad rertaisly could not
Mao comities's' that Joraiesgst the issaitifarions duties of
his *itemise, were the issue of -half pay, •the decision tw
all intricate cams relatir to the issne of prize-tooney,
pension for soldiers wounds, and allowances to the wi-
dows sad Molest of raters. fleshlrs this. a [real per-
daft or his own thee was occupied in similar matters at
(Arises Hospital. Dariarthe time that be had bees is
the sitnatiat he bad dose all is his power to reduce the
charge of the Department, awl then the lion. Member
t tilted of its lariat undergone 1111 revision, be must bre
him to look at the progressive diminution of charge of
late years.
la Inkt It was 14.1.0011 In lAouitwas tt9.438
1817 34.0110 Itltl tB.lloo
lAOA Mont I Mitt' 28,313

IBM ~. MAE I
Than (or thr last six years it had beensulterieg a eradual
reduction.—(Bear, locar.)—Whons he first went into
his situation there was much business in —now
there was none, every thing being before the auditors
up to the latest ;aerosol. Ile defied the lion. Mealier to do
the Waimea with a less trueelwr of clerks than he (Sir C.
Long) had. He bad reduced many, and was ready to
reduce more wit it was apparent that it could be
done consistently. He knew that Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite cried out against the weight of reduction falling
upon the jnniors alone. the senior clerks remaining un-
touched. Now it so happened that he hail diminished
the salaries of all the tipper clerks in his ofice.—(Hear.)
He did not expect, however, that this ever would satisfy •
lion. Gentlemen opposite, tont that they would rather
tern round esti upbraid Ilion for not being more tender to
the old servants of the ;while He assured the Commit-
tee that he had done all that was possible to reduce the
estahlishinent as low as ;sensible, consistently with the
public welfare; but he did not mean to say that he ex-
pected to satisfy the Hononrable Gentleman opposite.—
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME thoeght the Right Hoe. Gentleman took
tolerable credit to himself, considorieg the amount was
only 1,908/. since last year. The Right Hon. Gentle-
I man appealed to the Committees—he (Mr. Hume) ap-
pealed to them Max By a reference to their reports it
wsuM be found that his Hon. and Gallant Friend (Col.
Davies) was completely borne out, in stating this to he
a Ministerial office, an.l that the whole of the duty oldie
office might be done with greater ease by the Bank. All
that the office did was, after making the applicant
for payment go through half a dozen rooms,
to give a cheque on the Bank of Righted after all. Bat
the Right lion. Gentleman's time was take. up in de-
ciding Chelsea Hospital cases. What has the Pay Office
to do with the Right Hon. Gentleman belonging to the
Board of Chelsea Hospital. Notwithstanding his great
exertisons, he cask' assure him that some of the Army
Agents could teach him to simplify his plans. Newish-
ed to know whether the Committee about to be appoint-
ed to inquire into the male of keeping public accounts,
were to carry thtic investigations to other offices than
the Treasury. If so, he din sure their Report worth!
point out a mode of simplification for the Pay Office.
He wished to know whether he was to understand that
the Right Hos. Gentleman had added the department
of foreign half-pay to his office. If so, he ought to
have dose it without any addition to the number of
clerks.

Sir C. LONG said, that be bad done all in his power
to simplify the accounts in his office, arid he did not
think they could be bitter managed than they were at
present. With respect to the additional clerks from the
office of the foreign bait-pay, he would only state, that
when the business was trait:fermi to bis office, be bad.
6ndiog that additional clerks were necessary, selected
two of the most irstelligent from the six in the office
where that branch was before transacted, and invited
them to his office it the salaries they had held before.
As to the opinion of the Committee of 1727, of the office
being ministerial, be would only say, that if it was so
considered at that period, it was not so in 1822. -
Colonel DAVIES explained.
Lord PALMERSTON said the duty of the Paymaster-
General eonld not he discharged by the Bank.
Mr. PIERCE said it was quite extravagant to "sup-
pose that the Bank could perform such a duty.
Colonel DAVIES asserted any such thing: all
he contended for was, that the Secretary at War might
draw on the Rank as well as the Paymaster-G I.
Mr. HUME contended that there was no occasion for
a separation of the foreign halfpay and British half-
par.
The Resolution was agreed to.
The nest was to grant a sum of six hundred and
eighty-four thousand pounds for the Deputy Adjutant.
General's Department.
• Mr. HUME asked why fire hundred pounds a rear
was added to the Ailjstant•General's allowance until be
was on the Staff. That officer was now on the staff, and
why should the allowance be continued.
Lord PA LSIERSTON said the Adjutant and Quarter-
master-general were not on the staff now, nor had been
sinse 13161 and their pay was now less than it was in
1 1815.

The Resolution was agreed to.
The sum of three hundred and twenty pounds was
voted to the Depoty.aajutant-grseral in North Britain ;
anal 2501. for the Deputy-quartermaster-bleneratin North
Britain.
On moving the sum of 4,5501. fur the Department of
the .ludgße•advocate-teneral,
Lord PALM ftBSTON, in answer to a question from
Mr. ffnme. said that there was a considerable saving in
that Department.
Mr. 1.11:111E said the expense was far too great at. this
time.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER entered
into some exploitations respecting the present expenses
helengiog to this department, which were regulated on
she ease economical scale.
Mr. 111 ME said Sir Charles Morgan received DM/.
a year ; but in I Sl7 the expenses were increased to 44W.
And he should none to reduce that sum to .7.1501. leav-
ing 1,500/. a year to the Jodge-advocate-general.
The SOLICIThIt-IiENLRAL said this office was
held by patent, ansl the holder of it was entitled to the
salary of a Puisne Judge. Sir C. Morgan held the of-
fice for many years, and he being a man of large property.
never troubled himself about applying for an increase of
salary, although by law be was entitled todo so. Many
great and important duties belonged to this office, fur
upon the character of the Judge depended the lives and
characters of all the officers in the British Army. In
time of peace he had most numerous duties to perform,
as well as in time of war All reports of Military courts-
martial were transmitted to him for his approbation, in
order that no injustice might be done to individuals.—
Besides, tbi. officer was always the adviser of the Cons-
tnander•in-Chirf on all Military questions connected
with point* of law ;and no man could say that his salary
was too much. ft was also to be observed, that the
duties of Ireland and Scotland had devolved on him
since 1517.
Mr. HUME denied that the place in question was a
patent place; and it was absurd to suppose, that with
the present diminution of our forces, there could be say
necessity fur keeping up an office with the saute expense
as .I.trilie the war.

The SPEAKER raid he felt it necessary to state what
was the real duties of this office. If this were a questing
merely of sala-ies, he could cot say sword about it ; let
■s there ►eemed to be a doubt respeciiae the somata of
duty to be petf..rueed, he would assure the Committee,

-4werrenotome
that Burin; the two run he held the offset its as,.
was so laborions, that in all that time he bad net —7l
than five weeks of leisure, and was titter able to be ell;
seat inner than a fertnieht it a tits,. The iseethe
peace or war saute tie slifterance is regaidte the amm
of they. or the importance of the office ; for the oJagp
Advocate General had to superintend the prociedian
all Courts Martial; they must all come nailer hissg
dos, and be was responsible for their conduct. If the
strict rules of evidence were not always observed is
Courts hlartial, that erase frown the construction of tht
blurts themselves; and when be was in office, he et.
ways took care to see that ail the eridenre given's fei4le
should be riven accordiug to law. and that awn oe ;64
trials should have every possible advantare.--.olm.
hear.) If the Are was to be tneintained, it ought tell
with dignity; and he loge's! thr Committee, if ti,,.
were leeternsine.l to reduce the salart, of the Jodie
two thousand fire hundred peon& to tile thossand
hundre.l pounds • year. that they wnaid tint do mak
the gronnd of any reduction suppo•ed to bare tale(
pi..., is the hflairs-,s he bad to perform beet)
The 'ma psi tfee then divided.
On the amendment, the immix's., were—pot it, !5..;
Aesines it IN—Majority 106.
The Estimate was then acreed to.
The seta of 12.7d5/. was then voted for the Cisaipti•!:
ler of Army Accomsts„ Clerks, &e.
The of 5,715/. being toured for the apnoea
the Medical Department.
Mr. HUME, wished to hare the capes', of both
branches of the Medical Departreeet is the nature of
one emablishment. He asegidered theses sere than

otriet economy ought to allow.
Lord PALMERSTON said the duties wereof thenstt
important description; the officers of the establish.
meet were entrusted with the health of the troops.
The Estimate, and also that fur the Sledieal Depart.
Dent in Ireland. were agreed to.
The som of 19,3:131. was•graeted fur Medicines fee the
Hospitals.
For Volunteer Corps in Ireland, sixty one theanat
three hundred and nineteen pounds.
'To defray the e: pease of the different troops waited
fob the East India Company's service, the sun ad Map
three thoaned one hundred and eight pounds.
On the Illation that 13,6621. 1.. 761. be framed teal,.
fray the expense of the Royal Military College fw tit
ensuing year.

Mr. HUME asked the Noble Lord what was therm.
son for keeping upso large a scoff at that estohlishawst?
There were a governor, a lieutenant-gorernor, a majee,
four captain', and so on ; in short, the whole sodium
the country 6,0001. a year, anal nse:ely for superiatnd.
ing the education *fa few young turn. Thoegh there
were now 290 cadets at the college. the whole somber ad.
muted into the army between laid mid ltdl was 140.
These young men had cost the country 115.2304.,
at the rate of 7201. for each cadet. Darisl the last
year, out of the 290 there were 41 rides who had got
commissions ; bat the remaining 246 were still ogre.
tided fur. New he would ask the Noble Lord whet
reason there was for educating more than they reel!
provide with commissions? BS the routine °idle ark
lege, one fourth of the number of cadets left it every
year. so that a the 70 thus leaving it, as only 44 were
provided for. the expense of educating the reassioiag
36 was thrown away. Why, then, was not the amber
of admissions to the allege limited to the umber of
of commissions which amid be given ? lie observed,st
the end of the particulars of the expense, a site little
item of 2s. 6.1. per day for the 290 gentlemen cadets. Way
was this sum granted to them? Ile supposed fw of
other reason than to pnt them tinder military law. Tut
committee would not do their duty if they ad not dial.
nish this expenditure. as well as that of the staff. The
Hon. Member next pointed out the impeoprietv of her
ing so many as 29 different professors to superriteerl the
education of these 290 young gentlemen, and added, that
the salaries of the governor and deptoy-gocerow sight
be reduced without soy detriment to the establishmest.
After several obserntions to the same effect, the Hes.
Member concluded by stating, that he she'll were for
the reduction of this rote by 5.01104., which wield leave
it 8,6611.15. 7d. Ile would not point out the particalsrs
on which this reduction ought to be wade, hat weak
leave it entirely to the Noble Lord's discretion.
The amendment being put,
Lord PALMERSTON said, that the effect of the
amendment would be to break down, by degrees, the
establishment. He would not waste the time of the
House by arguing the necessity of a professional eds-
cation for those gentlemen inteutled for officers of the
army. MI who were acquainted with the histery of the
country knew no great achievements were effected with
some previous instruction. The system of pteriato
military education was adopted in every eatery. If
such an institution was then necessary. the staff was sat
too large, and should be kept op. The persons airier
instruction were not mere boys, although ibey cash!
not i.e called men, and military dicers would cooped
respect from them, and reduce thew to obedience. The
' entire number of 'persons admitted since the estrldblb
ment of that college was 2596, and out of that Hotel
1n29 went into the army, in one tray or auother. Is
America, a country which might he supposed not to adept
any system of an unconstitutional or despotic MOM
there was a military college, and the number of rolets
was 272 to an army of live thousand, while in Engbai
it was 290 to sixty thousand.
Mr. F. PALMER was willing to admit that yesit
men ought to be educated, but he consinered the ester*
too great. The ti and Secretary liovereor sere
certainly not necessary.
Sir I . DE UILESPitINT considered rerinction isthis
estimate necessary. The lion. baronet disclaimed A
opposition bet that which proceeded trom a desire IC
serve the country.
Lord PALMEHSTON was patistied the Collep de'
rived the greatest advantage from the wrrices oh th.
Cloven:tor.

Mr. F. PALMER exl.lained.
Mr. KENNET did not wish to see more ass use
hundred boys, the sent of otficers,Cducated st the Esta-
blishment.
Colonel WOOD said, the sons of Officers is the C
legs were just one hundred, and oue hundred 101 6"
were sons of persons lint OsTeem olio paid for their
education, so that the Honourable Menders who I:.
ported the amendment were only r•outredieg 143.3
eighty students, lle was eouvinced the tievereor
of great !mutt to the est..ldishment.
lite question being called for, the Committee aVil
divided
t:—
he Amendment 26—Against it 7.l—Majorit!
The Estimate was then voted.
Lord PALMERSTON immediately after said. it 114
not his intention to go farther with the diseesdes 01
that occasion, hut he proposed to proceed with the dad
Estimates on Friday.
The House then resumed, and the Report was onler`4
to he received on Friday.
bfr. wiLisn.tu.tm gave notice of his intentiol:!,
bring in a Bill on tbe24.lth inst. to regulate the tradol
Canada.
Throttler Orders a the Day were read, and the how
adjourned at one o'clock.

WA". AT lovsno.-nliimin ro-nointem.
sites Evening 47 a, allin I.

Loftin.: Edited, Printed. and Published et the Ot c,
" Tote Svarestaan" and "Tuft etNITaUTION"(1110/1
PuPerl. No. ISt, Strand. opposite d4Lienteuts
by R WARDELL, LL.B.. to lobos all Condemn
Orders, Ra ere repented to be adttreseelL