The Statesman.
London, England, 1819-06-16 00:00:00

THE STATES ALAN,

ientes of the Westin.' would allow him, he
had given the report according to hi• tweet cne•
ecientious conviction. Mach of the lapfinsfiffs Wee
given him by a stranger in the gallery, who had so
understood Mr. flume. lie woo also asked a I
questions regarding the Time: establishment, the
somber of reporters employed thereon, and the men-
nor of taking and waking reports, to all of which he
gave leg and esplicit replies.
The 'items was then ordered to withdraw, after
which

Mr. C. W. WYNN said, that hewing given his
most wrings attention to what had passed la the eli-
mination jest concluded, nothing bed been said which
could make him believe that it was any thing but a
gross and libellous publication. He maintained that
even if in thecae's* of debate reflections were made
by *se Member. alluding to another, no printer
would be justified in laying it before the Public.—
For this he had oho highest authority, that of Mr.
Fos, who In 1788 held, that though Members might'
be justified, in the course of debase, in using particu-
lar longing, towards each other, yet a printer would
not be justified In sending it forth to the l'oblic; and
be, Mr. Faa) could hoagies cases where such
conduct would be a high breach of the privileges
of the House. It seemed to him (Mr. Wyatt) that
though the publication of what passed in the House
was only tolerated by connivance, yet that, when
given, the ;unties so giving it to the Public were
bland to give it correctly. The lion. Meffillwr con.
Eluded by moving. " That the mid Paper is a acsnda.
loos misrepresentation of the debates and proceedings
of this Howse, • calumnious libel on the character of
one of its Members, anal an aggravated breach of
privilege"

.
On the qoestion b►ing pet,
Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that it was cerium
that If the Hesse agreed to this 'Letoletiou, they
should go further; and perhaps before it was pet, it
would be best to consider, whether. under all tb•
circumstances of valorisation which the Holm bad
berm!, they would take • step which would bind
them, as undoubtedly this misers would, to
another. Ile was not indiipoied to concur wish the
terms of it, but there was a diScolty which was pre-
sented by the strength of them, and which might per-
haps be got over by adding words to the effect, lint
in consideration of the circumstances which bad been
stated, the House was induced to remain sasi•hed
with a reprimand. Ile could
were it tout for the circumstances of titteneation
which had been brought to light, be should hale
joined in voting for the severest punishment whirl. it
was in their power to inflict. He was is the judg.
ment of the Hoes* whether it was necessary to go
over the eside•ce in order to establish the grounds of
distinction which be bad in view.

Mr. B. BATHURST aaid, that adverting to the
evidence, some of the circumstances stated appeared
Cu be somewhat singularly co.incident—that them.
sage in question should have been so imperfectly
heard; that the witness should have adopted the rest
on the representation of a mere stranger; that it
should have hese pet so offensively ; and that the
nine, with the addition of cheers, ►hould have been
Inserted in a parenthesis. Another unfortanste In.
cident was, the loss of the witness's notes. which it
was extremely desirable to have had produced.—
Upon the whole, it was manifest that a case was
writ v,,nn their coesideration, which it would be
impossible to pass over without visiting it with sums
punishment.
Mr. PHILLIPS observed, that he regarded the
defeats which had been made by the Gentleman she
had withdrawn from the liar as a most ing.nooos, re-
ther than as that ingenious one which the Itieht Hoe.
Gentleman geom.(' to consider it, It but shoat it
every natural intlica.ion of sincerity ; and the state-
ment which had 'wen made bore with it all the ap-
pearance of troth. For himself he might shears.,
that basic/ fr►quently observed the Right lion. Gan.
defeats (Canning) prone to associate lecherous
images with subjects of distress— (Cries of No. No!)
—if then he was mistaken on this point, it was not
surprising that the witness should also have bees de-
ceived. Ile himself was persuaded, that there had
been no intention to misrepresent ; and with 'big per.
session en his mind, be could ant, es en honest man,
vote that the Paper wag a scandalous and calumitioes
I libel, although the melt of his feeling, if the Rose.
lotion wets pressed, might he a division of the
Hoes..

Lord CASTLEREAGH remarked, that if the
proper course .if proceeding bad not been before ►vi.
dint, the speech of else Honourable Gentleman •es
calculated In guide them to it. The lion. Gentleman
had made one more of thugs attempts that had of
141014" n 40 frequent, to impute to his Right lion.
Friend (Mr. Canelea) conduct and f►eliuge of which
he was locapeble. If such imputo inns were followed
up in the daily prints, he weekd leave it to the
Hoene to judge what meat become of the privileges
of Fortissimo.— peer !)—lf they had any regard
for their owe dianiry or privileges, ■nd unless they
were willing to leave them entirely at the meter of
the reporters, they would, without bearing bard en
the iedividesl who was the subject of enimadversien,
end oho might not t• have reported any matter on
the idle suggestion of a stranger, deal with this case
on public grounds dewy. Ile felt himself bound to
say, Is the present state of proceeding the House
could not, consistently with its privileges or dignity,
receive any comnsunicetiee from the individual who
had been examined, until he should be is custody.
—Pear, howl
Mr. PHILLIPS explained.
Mr. ABERCROMBIE said it was important
that the grounds of their judgment, whatever it
might be, should appear upon their Jooreals.—
The manner of the skews had deservedly made '
general prepossession in his f and he could
almost wish that the listings of the Resolution was
less siren. The witness had *smiled himself to
arger* reproach, bet ►is conduct that day at the bar
recommended him to their most favourable consis
devotion. He had incurred much blame its adopting
the tepreventstiets of a stranger, and this was it, it.
,elf a great utronce. At the same time the maintier
whii.h the misstatement was accounted 1.. r satisfied
him of its sincerity. He conceived, therefore, that
whilst some punishment was doe, the House would
do itself honour In rendering It us mild and of short
donition as possible.

Lord coiwroN observed, that in the you 1814

a grass misrepresentation hail been made of a state-
ment respecting a piece of •err remarkable evidence
before a Committee, which hue bars submitted by
the lion. Mealier for Winehelm,. The evidence
was of such a nature that it had been smack rout of
the Minutes of the Committee, but bad been read in
she Bonne by the lion. Member. It was represented
in the Newspaper that this esidence bad been given
by another lion. Member; and notwithstanding this
double falsehood, had not been punished by the
Hussy. Ile thought this a much stros•ger cue than
the present, and as the• author of dist publication bad
been suffered to escape, it would ant he fair to adopt
Wont measures in a MP iu which the error was con-
fessed, and the r+u.• of it explained.
Mr. PROIIII:ROE b.-tiered that many Bun.
Members, after the ...Awe which 'bey bad heard,
were prepar►d to repress their belief that there had
been no malignity. There was one point to which
he wished for a moment to call attention ; it related
to a smite, or a.. slliseinn to a smile, which bad been
described se 'wrestling the Tr...eery Bench. In the
statement of t' e Ilon. Gemleman himself (Mr.
Home), all reference to il.is was nmitted ; bet he so.
&won., (torn s I Ilon. Members then present,
that such allusions had been made by him. It might
he Ira! that the Mose could not investigate thegues.
lion of intention when the maintenance of Its prig!.
leges became nee y ; hut it might at least be
admitted as ■ consideration in determining the men.
sure of punishment, and he himself should vote for
the most lenient.

Alt. C. 1I U ICIII NiON said the last two speeches
would be sallicient to guide his vole, if it had not
bees previously determined OD theSSON aide. Anxious
as he was to support the privileges of the House, be
should be sorry to do 911 liv n act of oppression.—
Ile should willingly vote that the flublicatios was an
unjustifiable breach of privilege; hot as he could not
keep intention out of his view, anti as an ussqoalified
apology bad been made, he could not join in any'
rot►, the almost nec ***** y consequence of which
waled be a enmosittrent to N►wgste.
Mr. BRAN!) obarrved, that a clear statement, a
tn,nly apology, bad been made. Ile could not ex-
clude from his consideration the point of intention,
eye. s'th.•tsgb the conseq might be, that the res.
sons of ibis proceediog would Doi appear upon their
Journals. It would. he thought, be better for the
Hostas, and for the Public, if some farther accom-
modation were furnished so the persons, who, not.
a othstaotling the shirttail iv, in which they were placed,
already pertorm►tl with 110 small diligence and ability
the task of communicating to the country what was
said and done in Parliament. Wltatevor additional
advantages they enjoyed would be accompanied by a
proportionate responsibility.
Mr. %V VNN.—Was there any man who could
read an segment of what was said to halo passed as
reported in that Paper, and contrast it with that cc.
count of what did really peas. as given by the Hon.
Member, and not say that this was a most gross and
scandalous misrepresentation?—(lhar !)—He re.
(erred particularly to that part abaft which he had
heard no eiplanstinn—he meant the " continued
cheers." Now, that was a circumstance which the
Reporter vivid not possible mistake. The second
pert of the resolution oas, that this was a calumnious
libel on one of the 11emliers of that llonosrable
Huse. Here the Hon. Gentleman moved for the
reading atlas passage, which was immediately read
by the clerk. If it did not amount to a calumnious
film en the Right Hon. Gentleman, be did not
knew what wee a caleetni eel libel. The concluding
allegatime was, that this was an aggravated brew! of
privilege. lie did ■ot think that to the pretreat
case he could apply a slighter espression, for be did
conceive tt to be aggravated from two circemstances,
which he had made mention of. It appeared to him,
then, that this was en aggravated libel, and after ell
that they had heard, he did not know hew to describe
it in ins slighter way. _ _

Lord BINNING said, that they would be pleased
to recollect, that hi. RtAlit lion. Friend bad stated
last night, that having then brought the matter fully
before them, and having laid the Pipers on their ta.
bk., he bad done his duty ; that after the ample dig.
avowal made by the lion. Member for the Aberdeen
Burnogh, he was completely satisfied; and the rest
it was for sheet, not for him to tin. Ilia (Lord Bk.
nin4's) object iU !inn was testate to the Mouse, that
it was for those reasons that his Right lion. Frisad
hail ah.eoteil himself that day.
Th.. SPEAKER then proceeded to put the gees-
lion. upon the Rentlotion moved by Mr. Wpm,
which w 44 carried, with tome dissentient voices.
Mr IVY NN then rose.—lt now became his defy
to follow up them which the noose had just
beard proposed, and had agreed to, and which he
believed to be a proper and necessary step. He well
knew that it was imponible to give with certainty
the exact and strict expression of any man, but he
could not conceive how it was possible for such a
perversion of what really pennies Ibis was to hate
taken place. The notice of " Cheers," he certainly
considered as giving a character and colour to these
proceeding. It might be material here to refer to
the period of the commencement of the French Re-
volution; when the Iranian's Assembly of that
country did admit persons indiscriminately into their
gallery, as matter of right, to give reports of their
proceedings. They were given with so many poli-
tical partialities, and in so garbled and inaccurate a
manner, that in order to guard against Ibis growing
abuse, it became imereassry for the principal Members
to publish newspapers of their own, with reports of
their several speeches. Ile had certainly experienced
surprise at the general ability and accuracy with
which the debates of Parliament were given; espe-
cially consideriag the very short lime in which they
had to appear. lie did not, h•serer, see that their
being published at nine or ten in the morning, in.
stead of three in the afternoon, for instance, was •
sufficient advantage In Justify or outweigh an ilium.
racy or misrepresentation of this kind. Considering;
the nature of the offence charged, he thought it nee
cessary to move that the Reporter, " having confess.
ed himself to be the author of the said paper, Is for
the said °fleece committed to his Majesty's Jail of
Nesigate."
Mr. GURNEY, after • yew observations delivered
its a low tone of snit% oheereed. that with respect to
what had fallen from she How. Oeotteeloolt about the
" Cheers," topes, which so much had been obeer
to,
be was entering the !louse at the time alluded

and was on the !lune, when he r•ifainif did bear a_
*oral cheers from them benehet.—( /haw I)

Mr. BROUGHAM was *Mimi to believe tbe dis-
claimer winch- had met the charge of personal feel-
ing; but with respect to the culpable negtigonce
with which the 11-porter stood charged, the House
was bound both in consistency with Its own forme,
and in justice to the person so charged, to tyke ii.tO
its consideration what had been the usual course in
these cases. Ile did net emu thst they were to be
hound by their former lenity, chick might possibly
hare given rise to the present case ; hut hec••se 'list
lenity might hove bed a tendency to mislead the per-
sons who reported the debates, and to proton, their
stleotioa being directed
to report (if they look eves
themselves to report thews) such pinePedings, with ee
greet accuracy as the system admitted. Instances of
this kind mete very numerous. No longer ago than
yestetday a speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend
sitting near him (Sir Jai**. Matiadati.), which Qtw
whole Howse, in common with himself, bad beard
with the highest sdmiratiee. was meat grossly Sisre-
',resented in the Pepe(' to which he alluded ; and that,
not after a short time, not in a berry, bet after several
days, and is conjunction with I other articles of
the urns indecent character. This spree% was declar-
ed to be a most ishamelets and impodeet attack en
Ferdinand VII. An attack, and the., he hollered.
a most elfecteal one, his Hon. end I.marned Friend
bad thought it undoubtedly his duty to note; but
whether it was a shameless attack, it was left to no-
body to judge. It was for Hon Gentlemen to de-
'ermine, together the reporters, partly by the ne-
cessities of their siteation, and partly by the !emir
shown to them by the House on former occasions,
had not been misled. If the commit's' of this indi-
vidual vas finally resolved on, as It appeared to be
by that 11. use, he social only recommend it to rest
satisfied with committing him to the custody of oho
Sergeant-et-Arms, indeed of to !denote, whielilsad
bees dome in a similar case—Kries of No, no! fro, s
the Ministerial benches), iA • similar case of breach
of privilege. and with making the term as short as
Mr. DAMES spoke in favour of the original
motion.

Mr. SMYTII (Cambridge, as we were info►med)
spoke so the precedent which had been alluded to.
of the Editor of a Newspaper being committed to the
custody of the Serjetnt.st-Arats. He glee his fell
concurrence so the last meeiste, as Seggested by the
lien. and Learned Gentleman.

Mr. WYNN considered the piste of confinement
• matter of no consequence. Confinement in the
mrstody of Ilse Serjaant-at.A.m•, sho•eh not so dii-
grscef•l, els nisch mete impend,' than in Neogate.

Sir J. hIACI,II.OiII submitted to the lion. Gent.
(Mr. Wynn) whether the disgrace of the place of
committal were not a consideration of the greatest
moment, considering the app•srance and edecttiets
of the person et the bar. It appeared ?o him to be
of the utmost consequence that this digerati., tooli-
ng to three points, should be the slightest possible.
Ile could not see how the lion. Gentleman could
press a committal to Nengste, if this was not a wit-
ty, misrepresentation. Hut It was dais to the impres-
atm which remained upon his own mind to egress
his own entire acquittal of that person from all charge
of the ki.d. He said loathing with respect to any
thing which the lints. and Learned Gentleman had
said about some aversions or misrepresentations
which had appeared in some Paper, relative to a
speech lately delivered by him ('iir J. Macintosh).
because any calumnies or malicious statements of
such • character, be viewed with contempt, mod
treated with neglect ; the Paper In question he
had not seen or heard of till that moment.
could not help observing, that he had
lung watched with some degree of tare sod
attention, On progress and conduct of the Papers
of no day, penitently thole connected with
the politica of both sides of the noose: and he must
be permitted to say, that at no former period were
they ever so distinguished for the ability with which
they were managed, the fidelity and accuracy of
their intelligence, the talents by which they were
supported, or their general fairness; bet partite.
lady, for their very great absti from personal
animosities. lie must be also allowed to observe,
that the condition of those persons connected with
the Papers was much bettered and improved; arid
that to impose any eneecessery disgrace upon mem-
bers of that body was to destroy that feeling of re-
spectability, which formed an infinitely better secu-
thy for the fidelity of their report, than any the se.
Teton punishment which Parliament could devise.
Mr. WILLIAM SMITH said, the Hon. Geode..
man (Mr. Wysii.) seemed to think, that the reporter
himself might prefer being committed to Neivgale to
bong taken into custody by the Setjamet-at.Asms.—
Now, he keen the young Gentleman personally, and
also knew something of his family ; and he could as-
sent the Howie that he was a person of respetabla
connections, of geed education, and of repellent be-
haviour. Time could, therefore, be no doeht that
to the Gentleman himself the punishment of being
takes into the custody orate Serjeant.ai.Arnes warid
be preferable to the degradation of being committed
to Neogsie.
Mr. W I 1.1.1 AMC (we believe) said, that in vapts.
nation of the misraipsesesitaiien which had trivets rise
to the present proceedings, bethought himaaelf
in state, that on the evening of the debate be had sat
behind the Han. Member for Aberdeen (Mr Hume,)
and that he bad • distinct recollection of the C. 11016-
' Jog expression s—." The Right lion. Gentleman, sod
the lion. Gentlemen noised him, may smile." 540.1
after this thong certainly were several cheery, ellhought
no doubt, a few seutentes intervened, which were
lost in the gallery.

Mr. BENN Err hoped the line. Orntirmon •oold
cheep the wording of Ms motion, end mike it a
emotion for commitment to the custody of the Serkent-
ot.Arnes, because he wee convinced thef in be coo.
milled to Neonate would. by a peann of odium, how
and relined fertinge,
Oats. Its that 0,e4111

*be llloom Olen lens'
of n.greprrerntetisu
state. tAet be ike
widmh en/1141110ff the
did or
petiole rtsPecling it
the character of the
o°

1,111

w.. 10, Ivy . p.-•-•••• - • -
folt tie the groatest &grad..
Idealism of tbo moti..o, e trwitott
ild cccccc . While on the tuhject
n• is the pobil• prints, he had to
I bold lo his bind • peragrepti
• most licentious shim. of that •
of know whet enure. they leottiti
t, bat io big opinion It •afrel.d
whole Hoses. The ii,n. Mem.
4'
•
••

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gut 146,4

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66 6 Hozza far the knower of Parliament, dams are.'

" Mus "

The only rninark be should woke nn this paragraph
sea, that in Iris opinion thine could not busily thing
...groins ill filfonet terms en di* clsaiaeter of Par.

hlmonl,

Mr. PROTHEROE said, h• would 'pp'sl to the
feeliors s.f eveiy Member of the Howse, whether, if
lite)• Ihr/writes were so jetties; of their characters
sod privileges. a Reporter should not lie treated in
Foch a claimer as to preserve the respectability of his
character.

Mr W. WYN?I agreed to alter his motion in Il•
manner aoutated. and Pllptegted Otis hop. that this
taw sushi operate as • sothriont caution in rouse.
—.. . . _

The motion that the Reporter, having et.nfoalted
Iliumlf to be the author of 'girl Paper, be taken into
easterly by the Serjeaot-at-Atws for said offence, was
then pot, and •uanim,.uly agreed to.