The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-08-05 00:00:00

SOUTH

Boys.. ,
Girls...
Infants,

115
136
Infants.. Boys
160
Gir15........

Established Church .... 453
Protestant Dissenters .. 87
Roman Catholics
confirmation of the proceed-

Mr. BIRKETT thought that Mr. Hodgson should now be
permitted to proceed with the motion on the subject, of
which he had given notice.

Mr. HODGSON was in the hands of the Council, and
ready to proceed, if they pleased.
Mr. JORDAN proposed that the Douay Bibles be given to
the St. Patrick's School.

The TOWN-CLERK stated that the more regular course to
pursue would be to confirm the proceedings of the committee
in the first instance, and to go on with the motions afterwards.
The proceedings having been accordingly confirmed,
Mr. HODGSON was about to proceed, when
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE begged to ask the Town-clerk how
far the Council would be authorised to give away or dispose
of the books in question ?
The TOWN-CLERK said there was no doubt that by law
the Council had no power to dispose of any property except
for a valuable consideration, unless it were in application of
the surplus for the public benefit of the inhabitants, and the
improvement of the borough. There was an exception in the
case of appropriation of land, by virtue of a particular
local act, depending, however, in principle, upon the same
rule that applied to the disposal of surplus income. He had
the opinion of the late Attorney-General, Sir John Camp-
bell, in a case in which property was applied for to he given
up, which was to the effect that, even with the consent of
the Lords of the Treasury, the Council could not give their
property without a valuable consideration.
Mr. HODGSON.—Can we, in the instance now about to be
discussed, legally give the property away ?
The TOWN-CLERK.—The legal question put to me is this—
can you legally give away this property ? I certainly consi-
der these books to be property, and my opinion is that you
cannot by law give them away. _

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said that the question was then
virtually disposed of, and that Mr. Hodgson's motion would
be quite nugatory and unnecessary at the present time, in-
asmuch as the Town-clerk vi as of opinion they had not the
power to give the property away. _ _

Mr. TURNER tliought the subject had better drop, if they
had not the power, and a very unpleasant discussion would
thereby be avoided.

Mr.- BOLTON insisted that Mr. Hodgson having given
notice of a motion, he (Mr. Bolton) wag competent to move
an amendment upon it, which he certainly should, to the
effect that the Education Committee give up these books.
The MAYOR.—Unless Mr. Hodgson withdraws his motion

The TOWN-CLERK said the council would understand that
the question of the appropriation of income was another
matter. The question put to him now was this—have the
council power to give away this property ? His answer was
that they could not without a valuable consideration.

Mr. Am/v.—Yes, unless it was " for the general benefit
of the inhabitants." Now he contended that books for
educational purposes must be for " the general benefit of the
inhabitants," seeing that they must tend to remove igno-
rance and establish virtue.

The TOWN-CLERK was decidedly of opinion that, suppos-
ing the council had a surplus income, they might, if they
thought proper, apply this property for " the public benefit
of the inhabitants." The question, whether this application
was for the public benefit of the inhabitants, was for the con-
sideration of the council : it belonged entirely to them. As
a gift, they could not give the property away ; it must be
parted with only for a valuable consideration.
t Mr. EVANS could not agree with the Town-clerk. Here
;was a property which was at present altogether negative in
its value; therefore, in giving away what was of no value, he
!denied that the council would be parting with property. But
samzate 1leeo?
'admitting it was property, what were the books purchased
for? For the council to enter upon a duty; and having
'been so purchased by the council, the council was bound to.
lther
"see that those books were put into activity. He knew not
Town-clerk could draw these very fine distinctions.
tfwere their subscriptions and gifts of land here and
iscnools wa
acknowledged institution not give these books to a regularly eor
like St. Patrick's school with the
;why not give i A
.
,
it these
hadgiventhe lanudreohnaswehdibcl;
ttilee
s built; they had raised it into existence ; and
icoTunhceil
were now locked up ?
council, and
Nw..hciLeh books, which had been purchased
Mr.
to
tstood. .1C thought he had made himself under-
;permission to go on, he
. . thought tact if the council would give him
shbo,:g
Right
in the position he d be able to prove thatto 11 was
would not be expedient to co. mettaoken. It appeared him
which mi,o:tt place them in a difficulty as regarded conclusionw
;nothing could arise from letting the law, particularly ,s
the subject be postponed.

He, therefore, under those circumstances, adhering most de-
cidedly to the principel laid down in his notice of motion,
and ready to maintain it with all the power he possessed, and
to exhibit the soundness of the position which the conserva-
tives must maintain it they maintained it at all, would con-
. ;• stpone his rnolion for the present. An attempt.
wa,c now being- undo for the purpose of undermining and
hoodwinking the conservative party in order to gain a point
over them and to put down the principle upon ~hich they
were acting. A property had been created by the late cor-
poration for abuse, and not for use—(hear)—but the conser-
vatives had happily got into that position in which they could
prevent the poison from being administered which their op-
ponents were willing to impart. With that view, he had
brought forward his motion to show that the conservatives
were standing upon their citadel and watch towers, and pre-
pared to defend their interests. He intended in the course
of his remarks, in support of the motion, to address a few
words to some of the conservative part 7, who were wavering
in their minds, but, under the present circumstances, he
would withdraw the motion. [The following was the notice
of motion which had been given by Mr. Hodgson :—" The
Town-Council having been privileged, in concert with the
declared sentiments of a large majority of the influential
community of Liverpool, to re-establish education for all
denominations, without restriction, in the Corporation
Schools, upon the sure basis of the revealed will of God, as
contained in the Bible, to the exclusion of the Irish extracts
and the Douay version, that version always containing ex-
clusive notes, deem that it would not only be inconsistent,
but a dereliction of principle, whilst rejecting these books on
religious grounds from one school, should they sanction
their presentation to any other; resolved, therefore, whilst
disclaiming all pretension to dictate or to interfere with the
religious scruples of others, that Mr. James Mullenenx's
application on behalf of the St. Patrick's Benevolent Society
Schools, for a gift of these discarded books, cannot be com-
plied with."]
Mr. BOLTON again claimed his right to submit a motion
with regard to this application.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—This opens the whole question
again.

seat to

Mr. BOLTON meant to open it again. He should move—
" That the prayer of the petition, on behalf of the St. Pa-
trick's Society Schools, be complied with, so far as it relates
to books ❑ot now in use, or likely to be so, in the corpora-
tion schools, provided that there be no legal objection to the
ff

said a legal objection had been

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOO
started by the Town-clerk
Mr. BOLTON appealed to the Mayor, under the advice of
the Town-clerk, whether there was any obstacle to his mo-

tion ?
The MAYOR.—I believe not.
The TOWN-CLERK said Mr. Bolton was quite in order in
making his motion; but whether the council could legally
comply with it was another question. [The latter part of
Mr. Bolton's motion was then struck out.]
Mr. BOLTON commenced by saying, that, from the pro-
ceedings of the Education Committee, it appeared there were
1432 children in the schools ; and out of those 1432, there
were only 99 Roman Catholics. Now, as the schools could
only be maintained for the public benefit of the inhabitants,
he appealed to every man of common sense whether there
was now in them a due proportion of that class who, from
their numbers and their great destitution, had a strong claim
upon the corporation for education ? A motion was now
made that the books formerly used in the corporation schools
be applied to another institution, for the instruction of that
class of people, who had been excluded from conscientiously
attending. These books were now lying useless; and one mem-
ber of the committee was understood to have declared that
sooner than allow them to go out to propagate error,
they should be burnt. It unfortunately did appear that by ex-
ternal influences, a mischievous spirit had been engendered;
he meant an unchristian introduction of religious fanaticism
instead of that rational good sense and Christian charity
which were the essentials of Christianity. In 1781) a similar
fanatical spirit had prevailed, and if it were now encouraged, it
would, as then, lead to riots and destruction of life and pro-
perty in Liverpool. if he could believe in the doctrine of
transmigration of souls, he should imagine that the soul of Lord
Geo. Gordon was embodied in the member for Everton (Mr.
Hodgson). He called upon some of the members to read the
history of Barnaby Rudge, by a very popular author, in
which the history of the period to which he alluded was ad-
mirably pourtrayed. There were among the members of the
Council many Mrs. *Vardens who would live to see the error
of their ways, and a few Miss Migg's, who would die in their
ignorance and spite. This was to be lamented. He con-
cluded by proposing his motion.
Mr. JORDAN seconded it.
Mr. BIRKETT asked whether it was not contrary to the
standing orders to make a grant to any school unless the
same was under the management of the council?
Mr. BRIGHT observed, that the council had been acting in
contravention of this law for many years.
The TOWN-CLERK said, the council had never made any
grant of land or money when he had not treated the question
in a similar way. He denied that the council had given land
to the St. Patrick's School.
Mr. COOPER moved, as an amendment, that the council
proceed to the business of the day.
Mr. SANDS seconded the amendment.
Mr. EVANS said, before he proceeded he thought it would
not be right to suffer remarks to be made which were in the
highest degree libellous on the last Council without repre-
hension. The member for Everton hail dared to tell the
Council that they had acquired a property for the purpose of
abuse. He had spoken even of the poison which they were
willing to diffuse and impart. Anything more gross, more
libellous, or more ungentlemanly he (Mr. Evans) had never
heard offered to the Council. (" Hear," from the radicals.)
The MAYOR.----I think you cannot mean that term per-
sonally.
Mr. EVANS.—Which, sir?
The M Ayo:, - The word "gentlemanly."
Mr. '..;nquestionably I do!
The MAYOR.—I think it is a very improper word. (Hear.)
Mr. EVANS.—flow can I say otherwise?
The MAYOR.—Then I think it is a term that we ought riot
to tolerate in this room, and I shall certainly take the sense
of the Council upon it, whether it ought not to be withdrawn.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. EvANs.—Very well; then I withdraw it. But I
should be glad to know what is the situation of the Council
if we are to be told we' are so depraved, so vicious, and so
altogether unfit for the trust reposed in us, that we acquire
property for abuse, and are willing to disseminate poison
among the people.
Mr. HonosoN.—lnfidelity is poison. The example some-
times is poison. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. EVANS.—When I read the motion of which notice
had been given, I expected that it would have 'been unani-
mously rejected by the Council. (A laugh.) Another re-
mark the gentleman has made is, that some of the members
on his side were wavering. Indeed, I am not surprised at it;
but I am told there is a power external to the Council that
is keeping his eye on the waverers—(hear, hear)—that is
menacing the waverers, and 1 am not at all surprised that
that personage, in his theatrical mode of action, is not un-
mindful of a certain plague, and that he looks out everywhere
for tools in order to furnish his own designs. A person of
that sort, that assumes so much for society, is doubtless on
the look out to provide mawworms to answer his purpose,
and serve as his tools. Honest men have often been be-
trayed into violence, and, even worse, by the acts of their
designing superiors. Now, sir, I believe that a good deal of
the celebrity of that person has been obtained by introducing
his name here—
Mr. PARKER rose to order.
Mr. EVANS.—I would ask that person are we not told to
love one another?
Mr. LLOYD.--elt would be much better if the gentleman
would mention the name at once.
Mr. EARLE.—Why, it's the Rev. Hugh M`Neile, who dic-
tates to this council.
Mr. LLOYD.—Then, let him be named at once, instead of
making those allusions to " lie," and " him," and " that
person," and so on. But why should a man be attacked in
his absence? (Hear, hear.)
Mr.EARLE.—And why are we attacked by him everywhere
in the town ?
Mr. LLOYD.—Why attack a man in his absence, and
when he has no opportunity of defending himself? (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. EvANs.--Because you give us only mere phantom
words to attack. Give us a man to attack. The council
had heard a good deal about sound education, and sound
principles, but he declared that he had never heard any sound
sense from Mr. Hodgson on the subject of education yet.
Were they riot ordered to love their neighbour, and were
they loving their neighbour when they were offering him
insults every day, and when they were calling his religion
" idolatry ?" If the religious Protestants of England had
the feeling of Mr. Hodgson, how could civil war be
avoided? It was an act of gross impiety to endeavour to
put the people asunder. He knew not why Mr. Hodgson,
after the speeches lately made in parliament, bad a right
constantly to get up and offer one-third of the population of
the town insults. And who was he insulting? The de-
scendants of those who had fought in the great battles which
had laid the foundation of England's power. They were
Catholic Englishmen who had won the battles of Cressy,
Poictiers, and Agincourt, and were they to un-English their
descendants? Mr. Evans concluded by expressing his be-
lief that the people of England would never again lend
themselves to persecution.
Mr. PARKER thought the remarks made by Mr. Bolton
were stronger than those made by Mr. Hodgson. (Hear,
hear.) If Mr. Evans looked in the mirror, he ought to be
the last man that to such a gentleman as Mr. Hodg-
son. It was un-christian like for Mr. Bolton, and he
had no right to charge the Protestant majority of the council
with overt acts to overthrow the nation. Upon the 12th of
July a spirit of popery was exhibited in The streets, and bad
it not been for the activity of the magistrates upon that oc-
casion, they would then have seen popery rampant in the town ;
but so far from their being anything that emanated from the
conservative majority of the council, tending to oppress
popery, he asserted that the conservatives were in every sense
the real liberals, and the best friends of the people. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. Honcsoist thought, that after the attack—for the per-
sonal attack made upon himself he did not care—made upon
the principles upon which the Education Committee were
acting, he might be allowed to say something in reply. The
charge of ungentlemanly conduct and gross conduct from a
gentleman on the other side—he must call him a gentleman
out of courtesy—the attack made upon him by a man such
as he was, would not, he thought, convey much reflection
either on his manners or his character. (Hear, hear.) As a
matter of manners he should not feel flattered by the alder-
man, if he were called upon to imitate either his manners or
his morals. He hoped he (Mr. Hodgson) had endeavoured
to exhibit an example which would put him into a situation
that he could not but feel elevated by comparison. Upon
that point, however, he would not make any further obser-
vations. To say that he (Mr. Hodgson) was willing to light
a match for the purpose of personal destruction, was
one of the many tortuous attempts to pervert what did
not admit of any such construction. He had said that his
fortress was one of principle, and, that if it were assailed, the
conservatives would stand ready match in hand to give a
broadside of reason—not that kind of broadside which the
gentleman was ready to pour upon men who dissented from
him. He (Mr. Hodgson) was not for the use of fire-arms—
he was not for the destruction of life—but for the preserva-
tion of it. He was not for taking from any man his rights,
or for withholding their rights from the Roman Catholics,
but he was for giving all men their rights—at the same time
some gentlemen entertained a very perverted notion of
rights. He was for complying with the laws in connexion
with the law of God, and he was for maintaining the right,
constitutionally, of carrying through the sound principles of
government, but he would not make radicalism or infidelity
rampant to direct him. (Hear.) In bringing forward his
motion he wanted to exhibit, as he trusted he could exhibit,
that to give way on the present question was literally to dis-
tribute what they esteemed to be exceedingly injurious. Ile
considered infidelity poison, but he was rather led to believe
that the gentleman did not, unless he had changed his sen-
timents since a pamphlet of his which had been presented to
him (Mr. H.) had been published—
Mr. EVANS (under great excitement).—You have no
right tot
fire-arms. i nthat manner,
Thensir.
wish e w
He has alreadyoul
dnot
use
depre-
cated the use
the sting in his tongue in the scandalous manner he is—
(great uproar.)
Mr. HODGSON made some remark which was inaudible in

the confusion.
Mr. Evans.—You would not dare to do it, sir, out of

The MAYOR called for order to be observed.
Mr. JORDAN said that no man had a right to call another
an infidel.
The MAYOR was not aware (that Mr. Hodgson had
applied the expression to any individual. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HODGSON continued. At the last council they had
an application from Mr. Mnlleneux, in the band-writing, as
he understood, of Mr. Rathbone-

The MAYOR told Mr. Hodgson he was now wandering
from the question.

Mr. HODGSON said he probably was; but at all events be
might refer

PROCTOR called the Mayor's attention to the fact that
the question was virtually disposed of by Mr. Hodgson
having withdrawn his motion.
The MAYOR said, the only motion before the Council was
Mr. Bolton's.

Mr. HODGSON thought that under the circumstances he
was entitled to make some observations.
Mr. EARLE.—Oh ! you have made enough.
Mr. HODGSON went on to say, that although the late
Corporation had acted with perfect sincerity in the matter
of education, what they had given as education was, in his
opinion, poison : and he would proceed to show that it was
poison it the Council desired. (No, no, from the radicals,
and cries of " vote.")
EARLE.-Oh ! we are all poisoned already.
Mr. HODGSON said then they had poisoned themselves.
If it were the Council's wish, he would say no more. (Re-
newed cries of " vote.")
Mr. BRIGHT, amidst cries of " vote, " said, that the
Bishop of Norwich and the Archbishop of Dublin had given
favourable opinions of the late system.
The MAYOR said that IV' Tl---3—^^ had the

r. Hodgson had the privilege o,
going into the general question first, if Mr. Bright had any
such intentions.
Mr. HODGSON had no desire to go into the general ques-
tion, but if others did he must also.
Mr. AIKIN said he rose to reply, if Mr. Hodgson had
finished.

Mr. HODGSON said, if Mr. Aikin was going to reply he
(Mr. Hodgson) must go ou, as he had not half done. (Cries
of " vote, vote.")
The TOWN-CLERK apprehended that if the Council ap-
proved of his law on the subject, the question was, was it
for the general benefit of the inhabitants that these books
should be given ?
Mr. HODGSON enquired whether, after disposing of the
amendment, the Council could go to the original motion ? ,
The TOWN-CLERK said no ; before the Council proceeded
to vote, the question must be decided whether it was for the
public benefit of the inhabitants that these books should be
given.

Mr. EARLE did hope and trust that they were not going
to have more speeches. Let gentlemen look at the clock.
He was not in the habit of saying much himself, and he
always did it short. (Oh ! oh ! and laughter.) Yes, he
seldom talked more than five or ten minutes at a time; but
here Mr. Hodgson had been talking of poison and all sorts
of nonsense for a whole hour. It was out of all character.
Mr. HonGsoN.—A good deal of it is owing to yourself.
After some discussion, Mr. HonGsosr proceeded at great
length to defend the present system of education in the
Corporation Schools. He contended that the conservatives
would be guilty of a dereliction of principle if they were to
grant Mr. IVltilleneux's application. He maintained that
the Corporation Schools were as much open to all denomi-
nations as they had ever been. The restrictions imposed by the
late corporation' had as effectually kept out the Protestant
children as anv that were now imposed could keep out the
Roman Catholics. The council had taken the broad ground of
Protestanism. (Hear, hear.) They offered not the Protestant
Bible with notes, but they gave it to the children as it had
been fully and amply established, upon which our glorious
constitution had stood for ages, and under which, he trusted,
it would stand for ages to come. (Cheers.) They had taken
the exact opposite to the Roman Catholic Church, which
was decidedlyopposed to the circulation of the Scriptures un-
accompanied by exclusive and particular notes, which notes
went to inculcate the errors of popery in the strongest man-
ner. The objection was not to the Douay translation as a
translation, but to the unsoundness of the notes and the
abominable principles they were calculated to inculcate. He
would read one or two of them. He held in his hand what was
called the Rhemish Testament, published in 1582 ; and the
first note he would refer to was on the 29th verse of the 13th
chapter of Matthew, which he would read.

Mr. RoaiNsoN..—Are you going to preach from it after-
wards? •

Mr. HODGSON.—That is as it may happen.
Mr. ROBINSON.—Then I shall be off.
The MA.You.--It is not a good reason for your leaving

Mr. ROBINSON was hastily leaving the room, when
The MAYOR called to him, "You cannot go without
leave ;" but the honourable member for Great George's Ward
had disappeared before the sound reached him.
Mr. HODGSON then proceeded to read the note on the 29th
verse of the-I3th chapter of St. Matthew, which inculcated
the destruction of heretics. He also read the note on the
9th chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke, and the 53d verse.
He stated that the notes had been since exceedingly modi-
fied, in consequence of the power which protestantism had
exercised, and the increasing spread of light. He next read
the oath taken by Roman Catholic bishops.
Mr. MBLLOR asked what he was reading from?
Mr. HODGSON replied, from a letter by the Rev. Hugh
M'Neile. (Ironical laughter from Mr. Earle.)
The MAYOR asked whether Mr. Hodgson knew the oath
to be authentic?

Mr. HonosoN said he had no doubt of it.—Mr. H., after
a few further observations, concluded by expressing a hope
that all the conservative members, who had been returned
on the ground that they would establish sound education,
would support the amendment, and not allow their oppo-
nents to crow over them.

Mr. AIKIN said that if they were to go back to the days of
John Calvin they would be able to quote many worse things
than had been quoted by Mr. Hodgson from the Bible,
which had evidently been printed many years ago. He said
the charge against Mr. Evans' morals and manners was un-
founded, and concluded as follows :—Lord George Gordon
became a zealot, an enthusiast, and a fanatic, and ended in
being a Jew. I hope that the gentleman (Mr. Hodgson)
who became christened at 60 will not be circumcised at 70!
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE expressed himself averse to the
surrender of the books to Mr. Mulleneux, on the ground
that St. Patrick's School, for which they were intended, was
opened for Protestants as well as Catholics.

Mr. JORDAN said that was the great- advantage of the
school, with which he had been connected for 30 years, and
there had been no contest or bickering there because no reli-
gion was taught there.

Mr. BIRKETT begged to ask the Mayor whether he was
right in supposing, that he heard Mr. Jordan say, that he
had been connected with the management of a public school
Poor, for a period of
for the iof e children of the
nearly thirty, innstruction whichth religion was excluded ?

Mr. JORD:II,I.—Yes. -
Mr. EliitreET.r.—Then, I am shocked to hear any
press such opinions, and much more, coming as it does from
a person of Mr. Jordan's advanced a=2;• _ _

After afe;;en7arksfiomllll:.—Pa-rker, who denied that
the Irish Roman Catholics were opposed to Scriptural edu-
cation.

The council divided. when there appeared—
For the amendment 29
Against it
The amendment was consequently declared to have been
carried. The following members voted in the division :
For the amendment :—Messrs. T. Shaw, F. Shand, D.
Hodgson, W. Thornhill, W. Preston, H. Copeland, R. B.
H. Blundell, J. Mellor, T. Sands, J. Cooper, J. N. Wood,
W. Birkett, J. Procter, J. B. Lloyd, R. Rigby, J. Kilshaw,
J. Parker, T. Brassey, G. H. Lawrence, S. L. Trotman, A.
Smith, jun., R. Harbord, W. P. Freme, R. Houghton, J.
H. Turner, T. Chilton, J. Bramley-Moore, E. Molyneux,
and the Mayor. •

Against the amendment :—Messrs. J. Holmes, T. Bolton,
J. Aikin, R. Bright, J. Priestley, R. V. Yates, F. Jordan,
J. Platt, I'. Holt, T. Bulley, E. Evans, T. B. Barclay, and
W. Earle.

Mr. EARLE returned ironical thanks to the Education
Committee for having returned him his books and globes.
He had now given them to a school from which the Roman
Catholic children were not excluded.
Mr. MOLYN mix said that Roman Catholic children were
not excluded from the corporation schools. He was always
glad to admit them, and to give them the best education
which the schools afforded.

Mr. EARLE.—A man may declare a great deal of nonsense,
but one is not bound to believe it.
Mr. BIRKETT called Mr. Earle to order. lie had availed
himself of an opportunity afforded to him by courtesy of
making a false charge.

Mr,- BARCLAY warmly contended that Roman Catholic
children were excluded.

Tfie MAYOR said Mr. Earle had certainly stolen a march.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORS hoped, as Mr. Earle was about to
leave the town for some time the following day, that he
would take with him the perpetual blister he placed on the
Council. (Laughter.)

Mr. EmiLE.-L.- I'll bring a stronger one back. (Continued
laughter.)

COURTS
_OF LAW COMMITTED

The proceedings of the Courts oll::,;eommittee, com-
prising a reference relative to the quality of the stone to be
used in the building, and a report of the Special Committee
appointed on the Bth September last, on the subject of the
police-courts and bridewells, together with the plans for the
new daily courts, and their recommendation thereon, having
been read, a short discussion followed, at the close of which
the report was referred back to the Finance Committee, with
instructions to confer with other committees.