The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-02-11 00:00:00

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511 9oneerland

[ICORTINNALIOX OY SMITE PROM MST rant.]
601.1LBVIIN did not agree in the terms which
had been applird fo nit mestere passed last Session.—
, He had no hesitation, however, iu saying, as the evils
. arising from the collection of ithes bad engaged the
sltintion of the Irish Hovernment front the heat hour of
aieir administration, a measure on the subject was at The
present moment in a very forward state, and he should
• speedily give notice of its production.
Mr. SPRINH RICE said, that as to the measure of
the last session, a more inekcient one, for the purpose
it ua4 intended to answer, never was brought forward,
a eutficiont proof of which would be, that not a single
)rase of tithes would be found to be granted under it
front one end of Ireland to another (hear! hear!) if it
was taut intended to propose something very different
from it, or if they had nothing to depend on but the
very vague declaration of the Right Hon. Secretary
(Mr. lionlbuin), he should be sorry to find bis Hon.
• Friend (Mr. Hume) induced to postpone his motion.
He wished to hear something like a description of the

tonsure intended.
Mr. PEEL said, that was a subject on which temper
and discretion were especially necessary. He appealed
to the house, whether it was usual at such a stage of the
business, to give a more explicit declaration than his
night Hon. Friend hail given, and whether partial de-
tails were not likely to prejudice fair discussion? His
Right Honourable Friend had stated that a measure on
the subject would he submitted to the house, and he
(.tir. P.) .oultl add, that it would be submitted in time
to allow the. Honourable Member for 3lontrose an op-
portunity subsequently to produce any ;measure he might
Think fit.
Mr. HUME recollected, that in postponing a notice he
had formerly given, he bad dune it with the under-
etendt ng that the Goverment would introduce a special
mempere. Tue state of Tithes and of the Church of Ire-
land watt ,sae cause of all the evils.of that unfortunive
comstry„and of the burdens of taxation imposed on this
coantry. And was it not extraordinary that the Hon.
tiogreigrysbould ask or expect a motion on these subjects
to be postponed ? Dors he intend to commute tithes
for as acreable assessment—to take a sixth front the pro-
duce of the land to buy up the tithes? lie, for one,
wonld,oever content, and the House should never con-
sent, to levy a tax of one shilling to add to the wealth of
the Church. lie would propose, first, a Regulation to ex-
press that the Church property of Ireland, which was in
the possession of ill•lhops, Deans, and Chapters, was
much too large; and he should then submit, in the second
place, that inaread of absentee clergyouen,with 2,0001. or
3.0110/. per annum, and starving curates, that every
ciergymsn should have a sufficient income to support
I.ltn respectably. •He (Mr. IL) would undertake to
thew, that if the Church property of Ireland were pro-
rely let, it would produce three or four millions a
year, and that this 'night, 'boilable g tithes altogether,
go to a general fund, which would pay all the clergy-
, iner, so as to allow theta to live respectably, and make
thcin lie would call on the House to declare
whether church property Is not property set aside by
the state fur the support of religion, and whether, under
that point of view, it is not the duty of the State to ap-
propriate it in such a manner as will most promote this
uitiort ? Mr. Hume sat down in refusing to postpone
his notice.
Mr. PEEL, in explanation, said that probably this
we. k would not elapse before his Right Honourable
Friend would submit s specific measure to the house.
The petition was then read, and on the motion that it
. do lie on the table,
Mr. RICE said that all he wanted was the word
" commutation" as a pledge from the Irish Govern-
m
Mc. 001.1.BL'ItN said that the measure would be for
a composition and a commutation of tithes.
VSSEY FITZGERALD expressed his satisfaction
that a stronger measure was now to be brought forward
than thin introduced last Session.
A new writ was ordered for the County of Ferma-
• n-gb -
Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON rose to correct a
mistake which 'bad been made as to the postponement of
kin motien 'relative to the Scuts Burghs, which stood
for the I lib of Meech.
Mr: Secretary PEEL appeared at the Bar, and read
his Majesty's Answer to tae Address.
Mr. tiRENFELL moved for separate Accounts of
Bank Notes and Bank Post Bills put into circulation
weekly (we untierstoo.l), and also an Account of the ag-
gregate Amount in Circulation. Also for Accounts of
the Quantity and Species of Copper imported and export-
ed into the ports of London and Liverpool.
Mr. W, WHITMORE postponed his motion relative
- . he Coro Laws, to the 28th.
Lord HOTHAU (we believe) gave notice, that be
should move for the House to be called over, with a
view to alliaettssion of the Catholic Question, on Thurs-
day, the 20th of February, or souse subsequent con-
' violent iley.
Mr. 'kJ A BERLY, in rising to move for a series of
. Papers, ergot:wed Gentlemen on the Ministerial Benches
.to withhold ever). pledge to support the financial
. schemes of the Monte, till they had heard what lie had
to bring forward °tithe subject. If he could she*, that
7,1100,0th11. of taxes could be taken off without impait-
ing public credit, he thought be should have a strong
claim to their support. The taxes, it was true, had
h en reduced coasiderehly, he believed he might say
at the rate of eight per cent. on the whole amount,
bait Ise was prepared to .hew that the value of the whole
property teas reduced is a much greater proportion, he
believed in Vie proportion of SS per cent. Of tbe 36,000,000
of property estimated to belong to the occupiers of the
land in 1613, there was absolutely none left. The pro-
party of the proprietors of the soil hid diminished, he
believed, one half, and the various profits of trade,
manufactories, &c, also had been considerably diminish-
ed. It was not customary for Ministers to give notice
of what they intended to du, and lie believed, therefore,
that they bad only mentioned their intention of repeal-
i at the Assessed 'l'aves, in order to divert the pahlic from
laiming those larger reductions which they ought to
have. The Honourable Member concluded by moving
for a number of Accounts relative to Property; of all
de.criptiona, paying Taxes, and exempt front paying
Taxes, between April 5, 1814, and April 5, 1015; and
also various Accounts relative to the value of property
at present, in order, as we understood, to show that the
reduction of taxation which had been made since the
peace bore no proportion to the diminished value of the
property of the country between the year 1815 and the
esent time.
Mr. iIitENFELL begged to ask his honorable friend
whether he contemplated as a part of his plan of reduc-
tion of the assessed taxes the re-enactment of the tax
upon property or income ?
Air. MAIO:ILLY replied that he did not. His relief
would be general, and without in any respect affecting
public credit.
Mr. LUSHINUTON said, that the accounts required
shoild be made out without mere delay than was un-
avoidable.
Mr HUME, in rising to move that certain papers,{
which had bees laid on the 'Fable of the House, rely-1
Ore to the accounts of the Sinking Fund, be printed,'
isiwerved, that nothing could be more ludicrous and
farcical than the present system of keeping these u-
tmost.. It was stated in one of these papers, that the
sutra 0(15,601,46a bad been paid into this bands of the
yoeinissioners for liquidating the National Debt for the
year ending January. 1133. TM. wit, in feet, not a
real immune. but a mere tratithr, in Which the sums
bestowed with one head wtre•pdd with the other. A

MIR.

...
ii
more ooMplet'ilaren ifiliciVi 'pretended second as
never attempted: tii•Ati'pliyed off by a juggler. e
trustetiOnt re they had now a new Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the absurd system, by which the old one bad
so long imposed upon the public, would be relinquish.
ed ; and that if the Sinking Fund were still to be kept
up, a real account of it, at least, might be laid before the
House. • :, ..1.• ;
Mr. GRAL, MEP. concurred with his Hon. Friend in
depreentia;the'failariuus and ideal account of the Sink-
ing Ftlid;libitib hnd been laid before the House for the
last loitilt years. bn justice to the late Chancellor of
the Excheqoer, however, it should be observed, that in
a Report laid on a table of the House, that Right Hon.
Gentleman bad strongly reoommedeti the Home to take
,this subject into its consideration; and bad even
pledged himself to do away with the system, which the
i Hon. Member for Aberdeen had so justly reprobated in
the present Session. so that in future the account of the
Sinking Fund might exhibit the real surplus of income
over expenditure.
Mr. LUStiINGTON said, it was undoubtedly the in.
teation of Itis Majesty's Government to carry into effect,
in the present Session of Parliament, the pledge which
bad been given on this subject by his Right Honourable
Friend, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The LORD MAYOR protested against any alteration
of the present system. He conceived the Sinking Fond
to be that greatilnancisi engine which had enabled us
to Wile all the attempts of tha enemy. It had received
the commendation of some of the wisest and the best
men that the country had produced ; and the system was
copied in America, in France, and in Himeji. He
trusted that the spirit of ziaa faith in this .eountry
would always indite, men to keep faith with the pnblic
creditor; and the best mode of doing so would' be to
maintain the Sinking Fund unaltered.
Mr. LISHINOTON thought that the Hoe. Member
who had last addressed the House, attached an impor-
tance to the subject which it did not deserve. The
object was merely to simplify the present system.
Mr. MAilfall,Y said that a more tricking fund was
never beard of than the Sinking Fund. Not one
shilling bad been saved by it, sod he thought it high
time that so gross a delusion should be put an end to.
The papers were then ordered lobe printed.
Mr. WILMOT requested to postpone his motion
respecting some Colonial Accounts, which stood fur
to morrow, to which Mr. Hume assen ted and the motion
was accordingly ordered to stand over to the •25th
instant: . _ .

...„._....
Mr. LUSIIINGTON moved for various returns
respecting the Revenue of Ireland, and also a return of
all grain sold in the Dublin Market during the last ten
years.—Ordered.
THE. KIMi'S LIBRARY.
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to put a question to the
Right Honourable tientlenean opposite, on a sul‘ject
which could not lint be interesting to the house and the
cnuntty. lie had heard a report that it was in the oun-
templation of his present Majesty to present the tnagni-
tient Library which belonged to the late King to the
public. This would indeed be a splendid donation, and
could not fail to strengthen the attachment of the people
to the House of Brunswick. lie was anxious to know
whether this report was correct, and if it were well
founded, whether any arraag' tents had been made fur
the disposition of this Library in a place worthy of its
extent and magnificence, and adapted to the public con-
venience? .

Mr. PEEL said the roport was certainly correct that
it was the ir.tention of his Majesty to make this donation
to the riblic. No p'al had yet been fixed upon for the
disposal of this magnificent collection, but. he goold
undertake to assure the Noble Lord, that every suitable
arrangement would be made bottle accomplishment of
his Majesty's intentions.
Mr. WILNIO I' moved for a Return of all Fines and
Quit Rents received by Proprietors of Lind in the
1 Is!and of 'Trinidad within certain periods; also a Re-
turn of the proceeds arising frotu the Sale of Lawd in-
that Island —Ordered.
Adjourned to to-morrow.

MAILS.
DVIS. ♦IIR.
Dahlia - 0 0 Holland •
I Waterford U U Hsmbro'
I G. & Jersey - 0 0 Franca
O Lisboa I I Flanders -
U Gottenburn - I 0 Brazil -

PRICE OF STOCKS Tills DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK.
Rank Stack . ....... .... ; India Stock . 234
3 per Ct. Red 741 73 731 731 !Ditto Bonds .. 32527 s . pin.
3 per Ct. Cous 74 31 31 ; South Sea Stook ... ......
31 per Ct. ~.,.t, s6l k , South Sea Old Ann
4 per Cents ...... ...Mile Ez.8111.2d. 2 His iss pa
New Fours ......,. 921 111 : 1000/. 5
6 per Ct. 17117.
Long Ann l9: 1.161 , Small IN l3s pm.
Imp. 3 per Ct.... .. ...... I Con.for tee.... 741 731 /i 1
Irish A per Cents ' LotteryTickete .... 4'21. 19s

aratt *tateontoin.

TLESDAt EVEXINO, FEBRUARY li,

SURREY COLWIT mrcrixo.

Amongst all the subjects that present themselves to
the public at this time, we hare no scruple to say that
that of the Public Debt is of the most importance. At
this Meeting, the grand situation was settled as far :is
the county of Surrey can settle it: Here was the whole
of the Norfolk Petition 'exeept the propositions for tem-
porary mnsures relating to the suspension of legal pro-
cess ; and, had not the day been so very unfavoUrable ;
had it not been almost rudeness to speak tygentliiiiten
standing under %rents of rain, that part of the Nor-
folk propositions ,wild in all likelihood have been put,
and if put, we have.tiis idea that they could have been
rejected. However, the main thinir was done. It was
fairly put to the Meeting, whether they did, of did not,
approve of an " cosi/able adjustment with regard to
the Public Debt and with regard to all contracts be-
tween man and man"? And by as respectable -body
of men in point of property, appearance and behaviour
as ever was assembled in England ; by a body of men
of this description, amounting to several thousands, the
affirmative wits carried with only, we think it was, ecru
hands held nj. against it. Every disadvantage under
which a proposition could be made ; that is to say, every
local and circumstantial disadvantage ;Mended the mak-
ing of this proposition. That which would Wave de-
stroyed any proposition in favour of which there was
not a deckled feeling ; that which would hare destroyed
any such wiiposition at once, was this circumstance, that
it was left out of the Petition moved by the most popu-
lar nobleman and seconded by the most popular gentle-
man in the whole county. Both of them ileservedly
objects of the greatest respect 'brought:Mt the vounty,
and both of them particularly endeared to the farmers as
kind and benevolent landlords. As they had left the
proposition out of that petition, the meeting would na-
turally infer that they (linage approve of it. Mr. Leech,
indeed, said, in the courscof &fa-speech, that he as Gee.

411.,_

:WN+3

. . .
vniced that ti-duction of the interest of the Debt ought
tsitaknplace ; but Lord Kiug rather threw his tremen-
dous weight hat) the other scale. So that, it was impos-
sible for the proposition to have stood before the tueeting
for a moment, unless their minds had already been made
up upon the subject.—Then it so happened that, though
it rained pretty nearly all the time, it rained hardest of
all while the mover was bringing forward the proposi-
tion; and any thing that he might have said to enforce
its adoption was obliged to be almost wholly omitted un-
less he chose to be guilty of almost downright rudeness
in detaining styli a meeting under such circumstances.
'to be sler. Bennet most ably maintained the jus-
tice and ►. ity of it ; and though the Morning Chroni-
cle is pleased to say it can discover no argyment in his
speech, we should he very glad if we could ever discover
in the Morning Chronicle any thing in the shape of argu-
ment in answer to the speech of Mr. Bennet.—We have
no time for further remark. The decision will speak pr
itself The reader will perceive that the Petition con-
tains a prayer fur the cutting off of all those emoluments,
of which the Norfolk Petition speaks ; that it prays for
the Isle of Crown-bands ; that it prays for an applica-
tion of Chnreh Property to the public service ; and that,
in short, it is the Norfolk Petition, bang up, with the
exception of those suspensions of legal process which
were of the least importance, and, certainly, of a cha-
r4ter including the least of change. }here is Reform of
Parliament ; here is every thing ; for, if there be no sus-
pension of the processes, there is a prayer for rectifying
contracts between man and man, to render which a little
less difficult was all that the snspeasion of process would
effect.—Let Lord Snffieltl, then, when he holds the next
meeting in a barn ; let Mr. Coke, when he next betakes
him to holes and corners, include, in their anathemas,
the ronuty of Surrey. Let them not pour out all the
phials of their wrath upon their own native county.
Here in Surrey there was no surprize, at any rate. Here
all was distinctly heard. Here the proposition was op-
posed by Lord Ellenborough and 31r. Thelicall, Sir
Thomas Tilden, and Mr. Sumner. Mr. Thelvrall cer-
tainly surpassed his mate Lord Ellenborough in do-
(pence, in argument, and in good manners. The little
rapping, however, which the noble Lord got he will not
very soon forget ; and especially the unanimmts approba-
tion with which that rapping was received. What was
said was much about as it appears in the Morning Chro-
nicle, fronts which we take the report. He thought, ap-
parently, to get applause by slavishly following the ex-
ample of Anna Brodie and Co. He found himself de-
ceived: but we will not avail ourselves of the advantage
which the press gives Its over him, to say all that we
might say, of triumph of his adversary, and of his
own undisguisable agitation and mortitieation. His
Lordship once, during the discussion of the Six Acts,
said he wished for some provision to he made to meet
libels having a character of prenlior malignity. lie was
doubtless right; and the honest county of Surrey showed
hint what it hearty detestation it has of libels of that de-
w iption.