The Statesman.
London, England, 1818-03-04 00:00:00

grievances corepholited of were found tett)* I roe, ea
supported by evidence, .tbey would not scrota the
godly Itom punishment.
REFORM INt SCOTCH RUROHS.

Lord ARCHIBALD lIA.MILIOS presented a
Petition from the Guild Brethren and others 'of the
Bergh of Ayr, complsining of various abuses in the
present adreinktration of the Bergh. The Noble
Lord said, that on a former night the Lord Arlen.
cite of Scotland had (repressed his intention of soh.
mitring some measure to the House on the subject of
Burgh Reform. in the absence of the Learned Lord
he hoped the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh)
would hes hle logic. aorneinformation en this subject.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that on the subject
alluded to by the Noble Lord, be was then unable to
give any distinct information. He believed, however,
there was a Bill in preparation, anti he shoold consi-
der it his duty to make enquiry.--.The Petition was
then laid on the tattle, and ordered to be printed.
Sir SAMUEL ROM I LLY rose to present a Pe-
tition from certain inhabitints of the city of Bristol,'
praying for Parliamentary Reform, and signed by
about 20 iodividuals. An opinion had become ge-
neral that to present Petitions signed by a greater
noosinr was contrary to law as it now stood. This,
however, was a great mistake. There was, indeed,
a law passed after the Restoration which rendered it
penal for permit's to go about to solicit signatures to
a Petition to a greater number that, (went) : but
there was none to prevent Petitions with signatures
to any event, when the Petitioners came regularly
forward to do so. This wss the state of the law,
and it should be generally known. The Petitioners
had applied to him to present their Petition to the
House, and he thought it his duty to do so, though
his sentiments were not in unison with those es-
pressed in the Petition. There were 44 other Peti-
tions for the same purpose, all from the same place,
and with the same listener of signatures.

They were all laid on the table, and the first was
ordered to be !winced.
Lord COCHRANE presented a Petition from a
person of the name of Ronert Thorn, weaver, in
Glasgow, complaining of harsh and cruel treatment
under the Suspension Act, and praying fur redress.—
The Petition stated, that he had ben taken np on
the 231 of February last without any warrant, and
confined in a dungeon, where he lay for five days
vaithout any food, and that, notwithatandr►►g the ea-
traordinary inclemency of the weather, he was ut-
terly unprovided with 6re or bed-clothes. The
Noble Lord said, th .1 if the allegations of the Peti-
__

non wete true, his Niaj..sty'%Mitti.ters were charge-
able with acts more flagrant than that of any Govern-
meat in Europe. lie hoped, however, the matter
would he !enquired into, and that if the jailer was
guilty of the cruelties complained of, the indignation
of the country would fall spoil the author of the mis-
chief.
Mr. FINLAY hoped the House would not be led
to rely upon the truth of the statements made in this
Petition. It stated, that the Petitioner hall been
Oilcan op under the iuspension Act : but the fact
was, that in Scotland hone were detained under the
operation of that Act.i. With respect to the alleged
harsh treatment complaind of, he had made enquiry,
and satisfied himself thit the complaint was ground-

Tess. - • ' •
Lewd COCHRANK said, that the Petition stated
that the Petitioner was indebted to an lion. Gentle.
man, vi Member of that House (Nil.. J. P. Groot),
for the preservation of his life. That Ono. Gentio.
men if be were present, could give information on
the subject of the Petition. The Petition was hid
on the table, and ordered to he printed. The Noble
Lord then presented similar Petitions from William
Irvine and John Buchanan, both weavers in Glas-

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gow. The Petitions were both laid on the table.
Sir S. RON!! pesented a Petition from Mr.
Henry Schukes MKaiust Fairs-paruchial Lands in the
11,,fough of Waitepgfnid, and other places, being,
exempted from the hurthen of the Poor Rates.
Referred to the Committee on the Poor Laws.
Mr. FOlttllMpre.eoted a• Petition from Beverley,
-against the Leaf hrt T/411.
Lord COCHRANE presented a variety of Peti-
tions for Reform. The coositn was so much kil-
-1 pressed with the neces..ity of Reform, that before
the close of the Session he was confident that Peti-
tions would pour in upon them, signed by tens and
h.-limited' of thousands. lie had a hundred Petitions
from Yorkshire, forty-five from Leeds, fitty.four
from' Bristol, and five from Newcastle.upoit-T) ne.
Sir E. BR YOGI'S obtained leave to bring a Bill
to alter and amend 7110 Copyright Act.
Mr. BABlsuroN moved for a list of all Recta.
ales, Vicarages, Chapetries, DortnitoTies, and Per-
petual Coracles, in the gift of the Crown, or ,that
have lapsed to the Crown, now vacant, distingvish-
ing the time when they became vacant or lapsed:—
Ordered.
Sir CHARLES MONCK moved for the Political
Constitution of the lonian Islands, ratified at Paris
'on the sth November, tBls.—Ordered.
Dr. PHILLIMORE rose to briag forward bis
motion respecting Spanish Claimant", whn have ob.
tained sentence of Restitution of Vosalv engaged in
, the Slave Trade.

Mr. WILREaFORLE wished the motion► to he
put off, on account of the indisposition of an lar,n.
Friend of his, who ,wished to be remit either dis.

cussion.
Dr. PIIILLIMORE consented, and the motion
was postponed till Tuesday neat.
Mr. GOULBUAN brought in • Bill to indemnify
certain Persons for trading in the West Indies in
Foreign Ships.—lt.was read a first time.
The American Trade Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed on Monda.► neat.
Mr. ARBUTIINoT brought Doha Report etthe
Committee of Supply.

.

Mr. LYTTEL,Teßwisbetl,to call the attention of
the Noble Lord (Palmerston) to two points which
•appeared to him AD affect. thst reputation of the Go-
vernment, as wells. the justice of the case. The first
point was the practice d.eaacting frum ever y half-pay
Officer an affidavit that he held no other office or em-
ployment. This was • harsh proceeding? The
reason assigned last year was, that no office could be
held'by a half-pay officer, without injuring his mi-
litary character. The Noble Lord had then said, that
if officers were allowed to betake themselves to civil
pursuidst.lbey would become either degraded or

.`

NJ

eat star from their military profession. This he
cousidered a very inadequate reason. Besides, hal-
m officers were very inadequately provided for; and
it was the'refore extremely harsh to restrain them
from civil employments. The second point respeeted a
repletion which had not yet taken place, but which
he understood to be in contemplation. It was, that
the widow of any officer who may have died after the
25th of December last, holding any annuity or in-
come equal to doable the amount of the pension tol
which she would be entitled, shall receive no pension.
This appeared to him to be a very cruel and unjust
regulation. Many officers were at touch pains, and
endured great difficulties and privations, in order to
secure some provision for their families. How very
unreasonable and unjust was it, that if they were
successful, their widows • must forfeit the pension to
which they would have bees. otherwise entitled. The
whole charge of pensions was 00,0001. a year. By
the first regulation, it was not pretended that any
ming could be made. By the second they could
save pethaps. 20,0001. or 30,0001. at the ea pence of
all justice and fair play. He hoped that the Noble
Lord *ould ehaoge this misnamed economy.
Lord PALMERSTON replied, that the first point
complained of was not new, as the honourable Gen-
tleman had admitted. It was the consequence of a
section in the Appropriation Act. Half-pay Officers
were not entitled to engage in civil offices, and to
take the half-pay, which was a kind of retaining fee
for the army. If they engaged in civil employment,
they would lose their military character. Besides, it
ought to be an object with them to be re-appointed
to active service. The smallness of their half-pay
was a motive for desiring this object. If they were
allowed to engage in civil employments, this motive
might be removed, and they might become mete
to the return of active service. The second regula-
tion complained of by the lion. Gentleman was the
recommendation of the Committee of Finance of last
year.
Sir C MOYCK wished to know whether any
Convention had been entered into between this coon-

try and the lonian Islands, respecting the maiutsiiiing
and repairing of garrisons,' and the supporting of
Wive ire those-islands?
Mr. GOULBURN replied, that the lonian Islands
were to support a garrison of 3000 men.
The first Resolution was then read, that the army
for the present year be 113,000 men.
Sir W. BURROUGHS insisted 'that so large an
army was incnnai•tent with the promises of Ministers,
the expectations of the country, and the state of Eu-
rope. Our army was uow proposed to be 113,000
men, the third year after hostilities ceased, and while
we were at peace with all the world. The establish-
ments proposed by the Noble Lord were not only
greater than the finances of the country would sup-
port, het than its exigencies reqeired. The sow
total proposed by die Estimates now laid upon the
table amounted to upwards of 57,000 me°, present-
ing fill excess above the establishment of the yes!.
1792 of no less than 29.500 men. By this result,
it appeared, therefore, that the proposed est. Wish.
merit for Great Brit and Ireland, including Guerin.
ley and Jersey, more than doubled what was deemed
necessary at the former period. Would any mats
say that such an excess was justified or demanded by
the circumosuce, of our internal 'Realm; ?—[llear,
hear!]—The incest of the finme force actually sos-
I the whole war establishment of 17J3. which
did not comprise more than 70.500 men. Even if
the militia were taken Into this last account, the
whole military force of every description would.fall
short of what was included in these Estimates. The
Noble Lord had pointed out but one reduction in the
regular force, employed for the home service, since
the last year, and the amount of this was ..but
1,959 men. But if tranquillity was now fully re-
stored, there could not be the same necessity for a
large military force, which there had been when it
wyekjudged necessary to suspend the Habeas Corpus
Act:, The Hon. Bart. concluded by moving is an
amendment, that the number of men voted for the
service of 'rhe year be 103.640, instead 'of 113,040,
as proposed by the original Estimate.
Mr. CURWEN rose, after calls for Lord Pal-
merston, to express his surprise that his Majeste's
Ministers should not think it right to give some an-
swer to the statements of his Hon. Friend. It ap-
peared to him, that this course of proceeding was
extremely well calculated to convince the couutry of
the necessity of some Parliamentary Reform. The
Public bad a right to be satisfied, that if there. sees
any measure of retrenchment practicable, it should•
not be left unelleMpto(l.
Lord PALMERSTON observed, that if what'
had passed that night in the House was calculated to
'how the necessity of a Reform of Parliament, he
presumed it was from the very scanty attendance
which the opposite benches testified on the discussion
At: so important a. subject. H reproach wsit appli-
cable any where, it was to those whom some per-
sons considered as the great defenders of the public
"arse, and who, it appeared, had no time to employ
441 se investigation of the Army Estimates.—(Bear,
hear!)—He should think himself fully justified were
Auto abstain from making any reply to the so-often
'Repeated arguments of the Hon. Bvrnnet. He meant
him uo personal disrespect, but he could see in. Ms
observations no one new point,: Ror one coisidera.
lien urged, which had not been- already stated;and,
discussed. The speech of thellon. Baronet **so"-
tirely made up of, threadbare references to the vestadi
blishments of 1792, and it reelly appeared to Mot
that an allusion. to the period of the Saxon Hey.
, tarchy would be as.appiicable.to the present circum.
stances of the country. To retrace a comparative
view of this noturr, wool& be an. idle waste of the
time of the Doom lie considered. it: sufficient ,to
,recal In their attention generally the. prodigious
changes which the events of war end, the operation
'of various causes had introduced into the interne,
eiteation of the country. Let them look.et the in-
enlace of our population. and the consequent. in-
.aressel of to r b olence. —(!lcer, hear! and a lough
from the Opp:Won.) .
Mr. CALCHAFT regretted es much as tbesNtibis
.Lend the thin attendance which was given on all sides
mi • question of so much public interest as the Army
,Weititnates. The reproach applied generally, and he
sekoald be sorry werea division to exhibit their.scauty
lonsrabers to the observation of the country. . Ile must
rcestend Wet ao satisfactory sewer had !ism made

„ .
to the objections to the amount of the F.-14min foi
the service of
.Fotgland end Ireland, and he bed nd
hesitation in declaring his belief that the redectiosi
of thousand men tax precticable. When mes.
curing the extent of an establishment, hew could
they proceeed without adopting some basis. and what
better (we cout.d they select than the peaceesriblisb.•
ment of 179 t. He hid himself proposed redigrions
in a former veer, whkh had not been assented tn.-. 1
In one instance he had recommended a diminution
of 3,000 men on a foreign stelon, and he west ere
scribed as an ignorant prejudiced person, who en•
tirely mi,concrised the matter, although a short
time after, his counsel was adopted, end the re-
duction actually took Ogre. Ile put it to the
Noble Lord leastlereagir), whether be and hit
Cabinet conclave of 14 were not bound to press.
down the expenditure to the lowest riot that
was consistent with
tpublic seceeity.—lt shook
be recollected, that itr present system of finance'
was, as it were, living from day to day ; thar
the Chancellor of the Eacheqier, the great stens.
jobber for the country, was, in the ordinary course
of gambling, taking advantage of every little varis.
don in the interest of the paper which he was enabled
to throw into the market. That paper, consisting dt
unfunded Eichequer Bills, amounted to 86;000,0001:'
and although he did not wish to speak harshly alb*
transsesisins of-the Stack-Exchange, they formed bat
an inglorious pursuit fur the Government of e great
country. .All the success, however, of which the
Right Honourable Gentleman could boast, in his
destines, was the reduction of 3,000,0001. upoti
800,000,0001. of debt, a boast, which he appre-
hended would bet little mitigate tins pain that a Right.
Honourable Gentleman who sat beside him (Mr.
Huskisson) must feel, after the solemn appeals which
he hall once made to him on the urgent necessity of
bringing the expenditure within the income.
Mr. PEEL observed that, with respect to Trelandi
there weri two counties still subject to the Insurrec.
lion Act ;'bur.the circumstances of that country wet'
iviratly impinged, in regard to the preservation of the
peace. He did not thick, however, that the mil,tary
force Could be reduced beyond the scale which was
cow propos.d, and'he conceived that the Hon. Gen-
tleman (Sir William Burroughsi, who had lately re•
turned from Wirt, was not a competent judge on this
mailer.—(A laugh.)

Mt. M AR.R YAT observed, with reference to the
colonies, that they were .not in a situation of contri.
holing to the maintenance of the troops, with the 02•.
caption of Jamaica. Ile did not think that a smaller
force could be voted for their protection and safety.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, it became the Commons
Of England—as many, at least, were then mem-.
hied there—to insist, that the number of troops km
be maintained, eSpecialls• in this country, should not
exceed what it was in 179'2. In a year of permanent
pence, and when all danger of internal commotion
was allowed to have ceased, it was for Ministers, and
not for those who sat on his side of the House, to
show why the force should be increased beyond what
it was at that period. The People of England had'
a right to be governed at the smallest possible eat
peace; and if he showed that the state of the
country did not reciaire any ettraortlitiary mee-
sures, the onus was on Ministers, to estanlish, step
by step, the necessity of Maintaining every hattalioni
it'd every troop of the line; which they now proposed
to the House. The danger which now paisted was
unt a danger to be apprehended from the People—it.
was a danger that arose out of the doctrine Of legi.
timate Governments, to be maintained and supported
by military for Ce—it was a danger that the Govern_
ments would go too far in trampling on the 'LOIN
and liberties of their subjects. And yet this was the
time in which the Ministers of the Crown though;
proper to desire so considerable an increase of the
Standing Army, compared with what it was in the
year 1792. If they wished to remove the cilitcon•
tent which unfortunately ezisted in Ireland, not Mr
the sword, hot by the laws, they stook' turn their at*
teution to those 'objects which formed the principal
grounds of murmur. The Noble Lord and his Col.
leagues would readily understand that he alluded to
the Catholic claims ; which, if granted, would have
the effect of restoring tranquillity in, every part of
the kingdom, It was scarcely necessary, at this time
of day, to observe, that Standing At mies were ut-
terly inconsistent with the spirit of our fre4'eoncsl:
lotion; but he would venture to say, that it keistt'6oll
of the most calamitous signs. of the time% shot, in
every country, armies were jsept up for the purpose
of spnlialion, and of racking terror in lbeteiods of
the People.—[llear, hear!]-11•011 stated thee
much, he should merely add, that he felt it his (toy
to oppose so large a Standing Army, and he molt
'heartily- approied bf the amendment of , his Howe
Friend.
lord CASTLEK.EAGH protested against taking
the year 1792 as the standard for the present year;
he was. prepared to prove, that the very history of
the year 1792 would be an argument on the other
side: it was an argument against hasty reductions of
our gilltary establishments, Is• dangers might arise
from a state of too peas socurit#. He thought that
the lien. and Learned Gentleman had not made
proper alin wince for the change in the internal situa-
tion of the country ;since the year 1702; such as the
increase of populatien and the 'enlarged state of the
Metropolis. Pitt had• certainly failed in his
,eliculation. end Lord Castlereagh) thought that
Ministers could sot inakeator further reduction with
_satiety to the cosotry.
, Tito Homo than, divided upon the amendment of
Sir W. 119rtueglts. The numbers were--
Ayes • V
Woes
Mojnrity - —24
Mr. AROUGTIAM afterwards moved, that the
Report of the Committee of Supply be taken into
further Consideration'on Friday nett. •
Lord PALM ERSTON observed, that the first and
lolestienptertvnt Resolutilm, determined Ake amount
.of tise,force to be kepi upt had already been agreed
to. Ho =told thetefure see no•resson why the coo.
fidetatitaa of that Ohm Resolutions, which merecom.
Litv felitelf °Colima. insportanceoshould be postponed.
Mr. BROUGHAM ultimately withdrew hie mo.

tine, and the Resotutiorweere read and agreed
Tie Matiny Bill eras brought' in,:read a last does
and ordered ter a second roadies to-morrow.
Adjourned at 1L o'clock.

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