The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-07 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN

sibly be done b)• any other mean.. He felt deeply grate-
fat to theta for having admitted the principle of commu-
tation ; for it was one which would afford the greatest
re:ief•to the Catholics, while it would give additional se-
curity to the Protestant Establishment. The kind-
hearted manner in which, on a recent occasion, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed his desire to
extend relief to Irelsnd, ought to be generally known in
that country ; and he felt no less anxious that the dis-
positions evinced by the two Right lion. Secretaries to
do away that state of distraction which hail so been
the curse of Ireland, should be made as widely known
as possible.
Colonel BARRY expressed his .estire concurrence in
the measure.
After a few observations from Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr.
Grattan, Col. Trench, cnd Mr. Hume,
Mr. GOULBURN said in explanation, the composi-
tion was to continue for twenty-one years, but that the
corn was to be valued every third year, in order that the
income might be kept up in proportion to the value of
the prod it re.
A desultory• conversation across the table then took
place between Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Peel, Mr. Plunkett,
anti Mr. Denman, after which the motion was unani
ntously agreed to.
NATIONAL DEBT REDUCTION ACTS.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the. EX-
CHEQUER, the 'tenon of the National Debt Reduction
Act was brought op. The right hon. pint- them moved
that it be read, upon which
Mr. CA LUNA rr rose, and said he was sorry to inter-
rupt the harmony that seemed to prevail in the house,
but a sense of his duty obliged hint to do so. He had,
on a former occasion, stated that thorn who were &deo-
c it. s fur a further reduction of taxation would'find theme
selves in a difficult situation, if the Chancellor of the
Exchequer should get a measure passed into a law,
which wonld have the effect of tying up the surplus re-
venue of the country. His own opinion was, that a great
proportion of it had much better been applied to the re-
list of taxation. Those persons who held the lame
opinion with himself were reproached with not taking
a statesman-like view of the subject, and it was said
they were only seeking after popularity. He for one
would say, though not adverse to popularity, if hecould
attain it considerably with a proper discharge of his
duty, yet that he would never go out of the way of his
duty to secure it. He would own that he was a friend
to the principles of a Sinking Fund, to be kept up by a
surplus revenue, when the country was in the situation
to apply it to a ' bona fide' discharge of the debt. Nei-
Hier would he oppose the present surOut being so ap-
plied, if he..did not think that a different application of
it would be.more beneficial even to those whose interests
it regarded, namely, the holders of Ouvernment seeuri-
ties. But then it was said, that if that was done, it
would he impossible to find persons who would be dis-
posed to lend money upon any occasion of emergency.
In his opinion, however, those who had money
to lend, did not look so much for security to the
Sinking Fund, as to the circumstances of the trade.
and real substantial wealth of the country. He would
ask whether the funds were new at r price, that
required to be increased by any financial operation.
He would again content that a much better application
might be made of ,he surplus revenue than the measure
now proposed. The object of the propesition which he
had to sdbmit, and upon whirl' he shwa' reel it his
duty to take the sense of the horse was, that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer should not urge the farther pro-
gress of the report till the 20th April next. 'I his could
produce no effect whatev r on the credit of the country
for the surplus revenue woe' I still go in the interval to
the payment of the debt, and the only difference would
be, that the politic accounts, instead of being narde up
to the sth of April, as usual, would be made up to the
bth of July.. His great object was to have in the mean
time the opinion of the house as to whether hither res
dostion one lit not to be made out of theksurples food.J
It was quite clear that in the present Seaton no further
reductions could take place, except out oftbe surplus re-
venue, and while it was yet unappropriated it was open
to the house to consider whether the measure he now
proposed might not be adopted with advantage to the
public. He wont.' not attempt to appropriate the whole
of the 5,000,0i101. to the reduction of taxes, lest it might
subject the Chat:le-11m of the Exch-qeer to.any inconve-
nience in his operations. All d sases of the people were
said to be in a Nourishing condition except one, and
even that class, he had reason to say, was in a state of
improvement. But under all circumstances, there was
as tittle cause of apprehending a failure in the revenue
of this country as in any country that was ever known.
For the reasons he had stated, he moved to defer the fur-
ther consideration co' the Report till the 20th of April
next.
Colonel WOOD sail he was as much a friend to the
intere,t as any ,ther Member. It was not by re-
ducing this or that, or any other small tax, that any benefit
could be coeferred on the agricultural classes, but it was
by keeping up the public credit of the country, and by re-
dueiog the interest of money. The Hue. "Member who
spoke last, was desirous that the surplus of revenue, in-
stead.of going in the Wort of a binking Fund to reduce
the debt, should be applied to the repeal of taxes, and he
accordingly, on a former night. said he would move for a
repeal of the Leather Tax. But the redoclion of that tax
last Session, he was convinced, benefitted no one ; cer-
tain!), the lauded interest received not the least advantage
from it. The best sera ice that could be rendered to that
and every other class of the people, was to secure the pre-
sent surplus to opernte as a sinking fund in reducing the
public debt and keeping up public credit. Under that im-
pression he would vote for ds original motion.
Mr. W. SMITH said that he was Instructed by persons
who were concerned in the leather trade to say that since
the reduction of the tax last Session the demand for that
.article had increased considerably, and enabled the tan-
ners to pay more to the farmer for hides and the wood-
grower for bark. It was 'leer, therefore, that a double
heuedt arose from VII, reduction of bad' the duty in those
a tides. First, to the tanner, on accoubt of the increased
d s mane ; and, secondly, through the tanner to the fanner,
in making the commodity cheaper as well se Odd a higher
price for the raw material. fie was of opinion• that it
would be more expedient to reduce tales an to secure a
Sinking Fund, which could produce enood effect, but
would be diverted to other purposes than a reelection of
the debt, if the country were to go to war.
Col. WOOD, in explanation, said, that the lion. Gent.
and himself must have had their inf sensation from differ-
ent sqorces. He had understood that bark was never so
low in price as at present.—(X laugh.)
Mr. J. MARTIN expressed his approbation of the
measure introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
He hoped he would not stop there, hut nould increase
the Pinking Nod hereafter. There was room for im-
provement in the accounts which he hoped would be
simplifies'. He was also of opinion that some reduce
lions might be made in the expenses of the public
establishments.
Mr.BENN ETT admitted,that in con.equeoce of the re-
duction of the duty on leather, there was a rise in the,
price deities and nark, but not in proportion to the re-
daction that was`naide. He agreed generally with the
bon. member for ror:arlington, that supply rod dem mud.
regulated each other. There use no rule without an ex.
ceptiou,and agricultural produce was an excision to that
maxim. The hon. gentleman then went into some argn-
mentain proof of that position, and in the nature of prac-
tical economy, wbicli did not appear to him so abstruse as
it was generally supposed. He thought that all dre taxes
taken offs:ere so mach given to the landlords. The landed
interest could' receive no benefit except from the reduction
of taxes that fell on land, and except perhaps, a re-
duction of the interest of money. He trusted the ho-
, aourable gentleman (Mr. Wendt) would persevirr jp )die

amendment, and follow it op by moving fors repeal ofl

the Leath►r 'Fair.
Sir J. SHELLEY expressed a wish that the Chancel•
for of the Exchequer would be able to propose a further
reduction of taxes, to the amount of two millions more,
which, with those already conceded, would make boar

millions in all.
Mr. C. SMITH supported the motion of the Chancellor

of the Exchequer.
Mr. HUME said he would take the opportunity of re-
deeming the pledge which he had given, of proving, not only
that the operations of the Sinking Fund were useless, but
even produced a loss to the pubiic. Ile would undertake to
say that the Sinking Fund, if going on for ever on the sys-
tem that it was conducted on, would not reduce one hun-
dred pounds of the public Debt. A reduction might be
made in the Debt by applying the surplus of revenue of in-
come to the cancelling at once so much of the Debt. The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer took
eredit for the operations of the Sinking Fund on the capital
Debt for the last seven years, and said a reduction in the
Funded Debt was effected to the amount of 24.700,0001.—
The Hon. Member here went into calculations of the sums
redeemed in each of the last seven years, and came to a con-
clusion that the result of all the transactions on the Funded
Debt in that time was a reduction of only 22,4614000/. Be-
tween that and the sum stated by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer there was a difference of 2,246,0001. which was
really lost to the public. The House was to expect no be-
nefit from the continuance of the systeth. end the Clianceilsr
of the Exchequer himself was candid enough to tidal t that
no reduction could be effected except by a real surplus.—
The country was before deluded by the appearance of a
Sinking Fund of slate -t mildons. He appealed to the Rt.
Hoe. Gent, whether he would keep up the delusion of a sur-
plus of two millions. Not one shilling of the National Debt
was paid by the Sinking Fund since 1793 to the present mo-
ment. It was of no use to relieve th • burdens of the people,
who had still to pay' the Interest of the sum not redeemed as
to them, hut transferred from one account to anoth it. The
next question was, whether it was expedient, io the present
eireu.ustances of the country. to have ally surplus of revenue
over the necessary expenditure. It wits only when a sur-
plus was made that there could he any thing like a Sink-
ing Fund. There was no such thing in America as a hie-
ing Fend like this, for when the amount of any debt was
ispaid off, it was entered as paid in a list, and no longer ex-
ted.
Mr. J. SMITH declared that daring the long war in
wiii.;l we had been engaged, it would have been impos-
sible to have raised the supplies without a Sinking Fund.
He was anstivocate for the Sinking Fund of live mil-
lions, because it wont! tend to increase the capitals of
men carrying on business, by keeping the funds high,
for when the funds were high, commercial men would
always have facilities for carrying on their business. Toe
best security for public credit, however, was retrench.
ment anti economy—(Herr, hear!)—and he was con-
vinced that extravagant ear i'liture on thi part of Go-
vernment would have a faint effect on credit, and on the
property of individuals. Economy was the best and
only friend of public creit. Unless every thing has
done in the way of economy which could be done, there
would be no end of discussions in that house upon finan-
cial embarrassments.
Mr. ;BOMA was confident that the Sinking Fund
was not only not b-nefizial, but mi4chievons. He did not
see any necessity for keeping up the price of the funds.
The fundholders did not want to have them high. They
were content with receiving their dividends. But there
were money-lenders, who were contributing to loans for
foreign ga;ernments—these were the only persons live-
rested in keeping up the price of the fund:, and he did
not conceive the financial and commercial interests of the
country ought to be sacrificed on their account. As to
the idea of extinguishing the debt by means of a Sink.
ing Fuod like this, it svas quite absurd. The mote we
had heretofore paid off, the more we owed ; and by keep-
ing up the price of the funds we were putting ourselves
further from the payment of debt. The grooves! put of
the mischief arose from the practice of borrowing in 3
per Cent. Stock, by which the Government disabled it-
self from pitying. off at par, becalms for every 601 we
borrowed, it weeld be neeeteary to pay MI. before
that debt was cleared off. No gentleman in private life
would borrow money on such terms, and if he did, no
Court of Equity in the lio4dom, would allow such a con-
tract to hold good. The Lord Chancellor, if the case
came before him, would direct a repayment of the princi-
pal received; with no more than the legal interest. There
was a great error its to the nature of public credit. In this
there must not only be a dispnsitioo, bet an ability to pay
the debt, and nothing should be done that tended to do
away that ability ; but an excessive taxation would do it
away. If these increased taxes intended for a Sinking
Fund were remitted, and the people relieved from the pay-
ment of tnem, their condition would be so improved, that
they would be much better able to pay off the dept in fu-
ture years. The American Government had adopted a plan
of this kind, by which the resources and Income of the coun-
try were increased, without laying on additional taxation.
It was time duty of this country to remit the tares as much
es pessible, in order to increase the public resources.
Alr. :WARD() said lie should always continue of
opinion, that a Sinking Fund was a good thin.,
vided the ronntry did not continue to borrow ntmey,
and that it was applied to the expen litute of the pub-
lic debt. But at tne same time, he would not trust this
Fund to his Majesty's Ministers, who would, as they bad
done before, Vern it into a mere tictitions Sinking Flied.
What was called a fund of five millions did not exist.
The only surplus of taxes was three millions; and if
the Sinking blind was now to be done away, the Chsn-
cellor of the Exchequer mild repeal no more taxes than
three millions. He was really alarmed at the amount of
the public debt ; be felt that no means for diminishing
it ought to be left untried ; and he was confident that
the present fallacious Sinking Fund would never sin it
away. Therefore some great effort ought to be :tittle,
in order to get rid of this mons' roils evil. He thought
that all kinds of property, and law among the rest,
ought to contribote a snare toward' paying ofT this
enormous debt, which disorganized all the commercial
operations of the cnutory. Hut he did rat think list
such a thing could be done, unless the people had a rat •
!lament differentlyorginized from the present.
bear.) It had been said that the Sinking Fund would
overate as a relief to the landed interest, by 'wailing
country gentlemen to borrow money a' a low rate of in-
terest. He alb{ not think any such effect wool.' be pro-
duced; for he did not think that this trifling Sinking
Fund would ever have such an operation.
Mr. A. BARING said he never heard such extriorrlinery
comiusions as those made by his Hon. Friend (Mr. P.. -
cards)) for paying off the National Deht. It wits the plan
only of one who studied from books ; but who had not
melee himself acquainted with the lister@ one character of
mankind. Hie only obj-ction to a Sinking Fund was, that
it would not he left; but if that Fund only continued for
a siaele year. it would be a gala to the country. This
question most rest ott a general view of the finances of the
country, not that of one interest as opposed to another ; and
one of time ieterests of a Sinking Fundwas, Met of its being
a beginning to rest on, for the raising of loans in case of
war. The case of America was the strongest mitt:Dent is
favour of a Sinking Fund, for there a surplus did exist, and
was app'iad towards the reduction of the debt. it was an
utifi.ir mode of comparison to judge the Slaking Fula of
5.030.0001. is cater:lst with the Intel amount of a debt of
50d,030,003/.; its effect t;ho.:ld I e j idged by its operation
with regard to tue interest of 30,190 )39'. Before the lute
fall in the Funds, Long Annuities were at a price equal to
20 years' purchate, and if it were possible to zonvcrt the
debt into Long Aunui ies, pit is an leterest Olive percent.
it might by that reasoning he extineuished in /7 years.—
Therefore he caneidered that 11 the country was blessed
with a long period of proniund peace, the Stoking Fund
might be expected to make a real reduction of debt. He
was not at aft disposed to concur in the reasoning of the
Hon. Member for Aberdeen, who contended that by earl's-
lag on the Sinking Fund at compound interest, they Kid
every year deeper into debt, when if eppliiel at sinple ill-
serest, a :mintiest of debt might be effected,, With regard

II V
to the Amendment before them, lie could give ft W.s •tso:
port, if he could see any good reason to pause until the leKli
of Am it But he feared that whin his lion. Friend looked
to was to stair. time. for the purpose of creating en anxiety
in the public nand for a greater reduction of taxation. For
he well knew how fast petitions would poor in against any
one tax, if hints were gismo that then was the time to make
sturdy applicetion.
Mr. WARM?. felt the necessity of apologiz:og for tali:-
ing op the time of the house, even fora moment, ',non
t let intricate s thjeet. It was beyond his reach to under-
stand all that was said, day after day, by two Hon. Mem-
bers, who displayed all the ingenuity and resources of
their great minds. He confessed his inability to fallow
their lactdarrions, and he might fairly apply not to what
they said, but to the general discussions on the sahje;;
—a doggerel uisti..l§
" Puzzling by explanation,
Obscuring by elucidation."
After some other remarks the Hun. Member couclude4
by giving hie :Alien to the amendment.
Mr. CA IiC:I.AbT rose, and said, that as his aide
the house hail furnished the whole of the debate,
as the Gentletn-n of the. other sihe were totally .ileta
upon it, he would nut intrude ',von thrua.—(Hear a•:ti
laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the F,XCHEQLTER, am' s
lona cries of " Question, Question!" rose to explain,
that indisposition prevente I hint front addressing the
house, but independent of that cause, he awe no nece•ii:e
for dividing the honours of the debate nit!! the H 0...
u„r.o,;„en opposite,—(Heer, bear!)—as he had, a fee•
evenings slaws fully expleined his sentiments upon ti•e
subject, an I he really shod., say, without insatiiog
any disrespect, that he did not hear any thing in :La
wry of arglreent on that night to respire a reply Prow
him.
Mr. CALCRAF I' said, there were other Hon. Ovule.
men on the Mioisterial side ivliu might have spoken with-
, out moiling the Hon. Chancellor of the ;lg.:helper to
• distress himself.
• The lions- then divided on the Amendment:—Ayea,4;
Noes 93; Majority 36.
'l' he resolntions were then read and agreed to.
The other Orders of the Div were then disposed o.f.
and the house adjsurtied at half-past Ten.