The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-03-11 00:00:00

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ith the subject in the absence of the reports for which he

ad now called

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Without knowing what they
misted the force of Mr. Sand:
that circumstances should ex

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chat the council having, in the c

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He looked
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remarks on

lace he admitted the force of

s which had falleli from Mr. Sands, but he did
justifiable excuse for the members of the
council ❑ot being made acquainted with the particulars of
the engineers' reports. They were now dealing with an im-
mense SUM of money, upon the right and proper appropria-
tion of which every member of the council was competent to
obliged by form

an opinion. He considered the reports of the engi-
neers very valuable in themselves ; but a man who walked
about the docks, who was a shipowner, and accustomed to
the management of ships, who knew what loading and dis-
charging was, was, to a certain extent, as competent to form
an opinion, and, in some respects, more so, than even Mr.
Walker and Mr. Cubitt. With regard to their reports, he
certainly should be glad to have them, but he did not see
(but he spoke off-hand) any use in having the evidence that
had been taken—in short, the reports would be sufficient
d I without the evidence.

With regard to such evidence as that
of the dock masters and others which had been taken, he was
quite ready to admit the force of it, but at the same time he
should not fail to take into consideration that however good

and efficient the dock masters and other servants of the trust
might be, they were not men who could speak from the prac-
tical experience of having worked such docks as those on
the plans of Mr. Gage. He should like to have the evidence
of a man who had worked such docks, who had practical
information to give concerning them, because every thing
else must to a great extent be matter of theory. With the
very little he knew, he was not prepared to say that Mr.
Gage's plan was better than Mr. Hartley's • he did not know
that it was, but from what he bad seen he believed there were
parts of Mr. Gage's plan superior to some of Mr. Hartley's.
What Mr. Sands had stated as the opinions of the associated
bodies went rather to prove that the convenience of ship-
owners was to be sacrificed to the warehousing of goods. Mr.
Sands said that the associated bodies had all spoken in fa-
vour of Mr. Hartley's plan with the exception of the ship-
owners, and one or two other associations. There were a
great many associations, who had given an opinion in favour
of Mr. Hartley's plan, he admitted ; but the shipowners,
who were a body of practical men, were opposed to it. Mr.
Sands had asked who was to decide the question after the
Dock Committee had taken all the evidence. 'Why, he (Mr.
Gladstone) said that council was to decide the question; the
cif was the body to decide, and how could they decide
ere to decide upon? He ad-
guments, and he regretted

ist that the present act-would
not admit of an alteration such as Mr. Gage's plan proposed.
However, as he had stated in the first instance, though he
felt a deep interest in the question, he had no desire, nor
would be, to thwart the proceedings of the Dock Committee
but, at the same time, he though(
-Ise of the present bill before
one to the expense of printing and circulating
he held in his hand, and which contained

as the engineers' reports without the
tiso to print these reports for cireula-

tion among the members Of the council.
Mr. AIKIN agreed with many of the remarks which had
been made by Mr. Gladstone, such, for instance, as that
wherein he declared that individual shipowners and practical
men were quite as able to judge of, and to direct, plans for
the good working of the docks, as any engineer in the king-
dom, and perhaps better. But he begged to recall to the re-
collection of the council that practical men had been appointed
council and the town for the express purpose of
ding those arrangements, and that a great many of
a extensive shipowners. For instance, there was
his welfare depended entirely on his shipping. He
osed that no man could have a greater interest in the

Sect, because his all, in fact, entirely depended on it. Mr

Tobin was also an extensive shipowner, and one who was
continually about the docks, and who understood the work-
ing of them, and could pot.be surpassed in that respect by

any gentleman, except Mr. Horsfall, who had been a member
of the committee for a great many years, and had rendered
great services to the estate, more, he believed, than any man
in the town. They were practical men, and it happened
most fortunately that there were such men to superintend
and manage the dock estat.,. (Loud cries of " hear,
hear.) And what were the council now asked to do? They
were asked to publish a very voluminous report, which, when
published, would never be read except by a few who took an
active interest in the matter; and he ventured to suggest,
that any individual, who did feel an active interest in the mat-
ter, should go down to the dock committee, and examine the
reports, where he would have the advantage of seeing the
whole plans laid down upon an extensive scale, and thereby
be much better enabled to judge of their respective merits,
than he could by any mere publication. If Mr. Gladstone,
or any other trustee of that great estate, would only be kind
enough to go down and examine the plans and reports, he
(Mr. Aikin) would venture to say that he would come to the
conclusion which had been arrived at by every individual
sent there expressly by the ratepayers to oppose the plan
adopted. But, luckily for the interest of the estate, and greatly
to his own credit also, the individual who had last been sent
there was the very party to move that the plan suggested by
Mr. Hartley should be proceeded with. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
Bold had come to the conclusion, which every reasonable
man must arrive at, that the plans adopted were decidedly
the best ; and he (Mr. Bold) had made a motion for their
adoption, and that motion had been seconded by Mr. Moly-
neux. He hoped the remarks, which had been so well made
by Mr. Sands, would induce many to go and examine for
themselves, in which case he was sure they would come to a
similar conclusion. The West Indian, the American, the
Mediterranean, the Baltic, and other associations, had all
been in favour of the plan adopted. And who had opposed
them ? The Shipmasters' Association had opposed them for-
sooth ; and a very young gentleman had come and made an
excellent speech on a subject about which he was preciously
ignorant. Besides that, there was a gentleman of the North
American timber trade. He (Mr. A.) was present when that
gentleman was putting his questions, and be said to him, " I
believe you approve of the means provided at the south-end
for discharging timber ?" " Yes," was his reply. " Can
anything be constructed better than that dock for the pur-
poses of that special trade ?"was the next question ; and his

reply was "No., none can be better." So far as regarded the
individual trade of this gentleman, the arrangement of the
docks could not be surpassed ; and the Dock Committee
thought he ought to be well satisfied. With regard to the
Shipowners' Association he could only say, that for a length
of time be used to go to that association : Mr. Brook Yates
was the chairman ; he, and some two others used to consti-
tute the committee, and upon one or tw•o occasions those two
or three appointed delegations of five for particular purposes,
to represent themselves and the association elsewhere, but it
was eventually broken up, because it was made a West India
or a mercantile association rather than an association of ship-
owners. Another had been lately established, but it was one
in which Mr. Chapman, himself, and some others finding
they had adopted proceedings deserving rather the character
of a warehouse owners association, made their bow and re-

tired. He (Mr. Aikin) happened to be retained upon the
committee in despite of itself, but although he regularly re-
ceived notes he never attended its meetings. Mr. Brockle-
bank was not a member of the association, and he could not
conceive that a more false fancy could get into the minds of
the council than to suppose that " the Shipowners' Associa-
tion" presented a fair view of the opinions of the shipowners
of the town. It did nothing of the kind. Mr. Henderson,
the chairman of that body, had sent resolutions down to the
Dock-trust, which if laid before the council would be con-
sidered little short of extremely impertinent, and not de-

serving of attention. He hoped however, and he believed,
from what bad taken place, that Mr. Gladstone would now
rely upon the management of the docks, seeing the various
members who had been appointed since be was there, and re-
collecting as he must do, that there never was a body of men
more devoted to their duty than the present committee, arid
that they had only committed one error, and that was in
listening for one moment to the suggestions of interested
parties out of doors, thereby incurring great expense to the
estate, and running the risk of having the trade of the port
injured by the delay that might have arisen.

ocTEa briefly s4ported the views of Mr. Glad-

The TowN-CLERIC said there were some legal consider-
ations in this case which it was his duty to lay before the
council. In the first place, although every thing like publi-
cation for the use of the public, must originate with the
Dock Committee, and not in the council, yet it was for the
council either to confirm or reject the proceedings of the
Dock Committee. But he did not think that the proceed-
ings of the Dock Committee were well laid before the council
for confirmation. The confirmation was of no value at all
unless the reports, evidence, and plans were laid upon the
the table of the council.
After a short conversation further, _

Mr. SANDS said he would immediately send a note to the
secretary of the Dock Committee for the plans, evidence,
and reports.
In about an hour afterwards they were laid upon the table,
when Mr. SANDS renewed his motion, and the proceed-
ings were unanimously confirmed.

TH RIVE ERSEY.
The MAYOR acknowledged the receipt of a communication
from Mr. Gage, with a chart inclosed, which, he said, would
enable the council to see that what was now called the New
Channel was known to exist 150 years ago. The letter was a
very long one, and entered into some details connected with
the state of the river.
The MAYOR said that Mr. Okill had a plan in his office a
few years older than that sent by Mr. Gage, which spewed
exactly the same thing.
Mr. SANDS moved that Mr. G.'s letter do lie upon the table.

Mr. Alderman EARLE : No, send it to the Dock Committee.
Mr. Alderman EVANS said the letter contained no material
information of any description, therefore it could answer no
end to refer it to any committee. With regard to " harrow-
ing" the channels he had never been an advocate for it: it
never promoted the efficiency of the channels, and it had
long since been left off.

The letter was then ordered to lie upon the table,

Mr. H. LAWRENCE suggested that it would be only courte-
ous towards Mr. Gage to thank him for the communication.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—W by should we lavish our thanks
upo❑ every intruder? We have had quite enough already
from that quarter. I certainly would not thank him.
would thank him, however, to leave off annoying us.
(Laughter.)