The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-05-17 00:00:00

of the kind; and *as if h htoow weir- .
toe. a
ye,
tomb
as
appa
a. tismi.
...
....a
as such entitled to it a•
.4hhie hod hove thrown, he ewe then his skim the klvttedgaden of complaints Maths to abases,
4iers have observed it. This was the statement of in ikbester jail.
JO
Mr, B. Inalinsuan NS' its Sad Mr. BUR. itnally ex-'
honourable and revealable tientkman, and if
iiiii mot
t disprove the statements of the other side, it ploileedo.
- I
wed h ought s; an enquiry to take Pia"' in order Mr. TWIn contended, that the animus of the wit-
that that the real facts might be ascertained. For his w
foe part he would say, that he thought the People
muchel'es tar the defencededtein o
this
debate,n the trial
m of 1N r.
nejullutinf;. so
the
House
dweltis rejecting
partieaia r
i the
particularly
\wild have done right, and would have acted lawfully
ottr:bioen
evidence dtehnece Hoofn .14flar:To
yn
at
B.t.
is resisting this outrage ; and he thought they had not H
Oar their duty in rot resisting. He, however. made
the ..
be them "millet r
accuraten e and intelligent wt k
hethat actonws considered
rei
*riven i t
o
every allowance for their unarmed
. state, and for their
Wag surrounded by their wives sad children.—He
sir on that occasion on the same side. The Hon.
sea however, that they would have deaf right to
"sPea '
pf:tehtnetodpirotffeceintedpetrwo entastecatredresaforkthoef dtehfrenteevi.
resist. It was said that a constable had been afterwards
diwieulTll:or
hilted le cold blood. This, he did not defend ; hut he
riasel that the instances of this description had enabled at Manchester—to the banners which they
h number of persons that were se-
bate
was surprised
more numerous than they bad. He really curied—the manner in which they met—their having
id sot see how any Hon. Member could reasonably wa ing-stte s ii their bands, la. He then described
Tea lle •k i
the motion. The Solleitor-lieneral had pro- the state of apprehension which this meeting so cos-
. emu .
posed that every thing should be forgiven and forgot-
ww. Yes! He (Sir R.) had no doubt his Majesty's was calculated to inspire; that the blagistrates
had recourse tO a step which was found to be decisive
millions were willing to forget the 600 unhappy pen- is London—namely,
to
seise the ringleader; that
pie who were killed, wounded, and maimed on thatwhen the constables proceeded to execute the warrant,
dreadful day ; but it was impossible, and be thought a a rush took plate, followed by a shout; and, in short,
the question would be unpardonable, and
e;nnpromite of . that the military were attacked after, if not before
the Noble Marquess opposite was much mistaken if be Hunt was arrested. He did not rely upon what might
thoeght he °°°ld bury the past in oblivion. Revenge be proved to be the intentions of the Meeting—why
however, was out asked. Investigation was demanded, tber innocent or otherwise—bat the qnestion was, as'
is order either that the lamentable necessity for these to the manner is
which the
meeting
and its proceed.
ings appeared to the Magistracy. lie maintained that
measares might be proved, or that this outrage, if there
bid been no such necessity, might be denounced as a it was a case in which it was incumbent on the Ma.
gnu attack upon the English Laws. An opportunity gistrates to make an imposing exhibition of force, in
re do this was afforded to the House, and if the House order to check any disposition on the part of the mitts
.
rrfessal to avail itself of that opportunity, t 'ere would titude to violence. He thought that the interdict of
e too much reason to fear that the people would think the Judge at the trial against the adasission of evi-
all further submission was a matter of prudence, but of dente respecting the conduct of the soldiery was of
prudence only. benefit to their case, hut he thought it too muds for
Sir W. DE CRESPIONY declared that he felt as the Reformers to turn round and say, that evidence
mach fur the character of Parliament as be did for the i to this curvet was not offered, because the ptosecntors
unhappy sufferers who were the subjects of this discus- I would not risk it. Ile described the difficulty of the
siva ; and he did trust that Parliament would not, by
'circumstances in which the Magistrates were placed.
refusing an inquiry, hand down its 11111111 to posterity a:sd commended the exercise of discretion which they
with dishonour. The Hon. Member referred at caul- determined upon on this occasion. Ile did not see
flerable length, to a letter from a Headman named what advantage could be expected from the motion.
Ifierbash (we think,) who was present at the Meeting. As to the conduct of Bovernment, they were reproached
It stated that the people were quiet and peaceable; that fJr having approved of the conduct of the Magistrates.
there was no appearance of disturbance until the lip- it was said that Ministers had made his Majesty ea-
roach of the Yeomanry, who advanced against the pep- press his is unalloyed satisfaction,"—for what ? For
pie with brandished swords, having previously given the blood shed ? No; hot for the blood that was ga-
thers shouts. The writer, the Hoe. Member said, was cred—the blood which the Magistrates rescued the
a fientleman of the first character, and he bad no country frotu the fatal necessity of shedding. In the
desbt would willingly attend at the Bar of the House. opinion of the tientlemen opposite, the Ministers should
Sir. TINDAL (as we understood) lamented the have turned to those Magistrates, and taunted them as
trancactions at Manchester; but, in his opinion, the rash, undiscerning men ; and have resolved because
Nish, the Magistrates, and the °averment, were all there were so.lls, men in that country which was spared
culpable. the miseries of great and extensive bloodshed by their
Mr. BECIIER said, that the voluminous details seasonable activity, to put them upon their trial. Such
which bad been referred to, conviaved him of the ne- condu.t, indeed, might have been expected from a
cessity of an inquiry. No person was less disposed weak, selfish Administration. Rut it was the cheesy-
than he was to condemn the notions of reform which teristic of a firm set of Ministers boldly to step forward
were defended by the leaders of the meeting; to con- and charge theuiselves wit): the responsibility of an
demo many parts of their conduct, or to allow largely act that appeared to thesis, however to he lamented, to
for the very trying situations in which Magistrates have been a commendable exercise of discretion. The
weft very often placed. Yet he thought that the con- Hon. Member then referred to the attempts which were
duct 01Ministers on the occasion in question, was not wade on the part of the alleged sufferers to procure-
s/sell as to inspire the people with a respect either for remedies in Courts of Law, and noticed and justified
the laws themselves or the administration. He thought the conduct of the Grand Jury of Lancaster. The
too, that where a number of the people had been killed Courts of Law having been open to all applications
and wounded by a military force in the time of peace, what wood hare been the
leash if mi.iinteei hail in.
it was a case fur the interference of the House, whe-
terposed. in the first instance, oti a Parliamentary la-
ther it came strictly within their practice or not. lie
quiry ?—would it not have been said that they wanted
saw no backwardness in the House when their own
to crush all legal redress, and to have substituted a
privileges were invaded, and they thought they ought
tyrannical majorite of that House, for the constitutional
not to show a backwardness in attending to the coui• means of arguing in a Court of Law? Did the Host.
plaints of those by w hom they were deputed. It was
Baronet mean to impugn the decision of the Lancaster'
'efficient for the House to know, that a meeting had Jury ?—did he mean to cast odium on that teiheinal,l
taken place, which, if illegal was not known to be so which had been regarded as the great bulwark of our
by those who attended it ; that that meeting had been
liberties—the I vial by Jury—time privilege of being
attacked by a military force; that many people had
tried by our friends and neighbomirs—those who know
been killed and wounded—that the survivors had cut
us ; those, in short, in the emphatic words of the law,
been able to obtain a legal inquiry; and that his Ma-
de viciantot He dill not see what possible advantage
jesty's Moisten had thanked the military, without
could result from this motion. He considered that it
Lavin' had had sufficient time to possess themselves
seas calculated to do great injury by reviving those
of the circumstances. He thought the House never irritations, and disturbing those angry elements, which
had so good an opportunity as tote present to give a were looked upon as the greatest calamities to which
practical refutation to the opinion that the House had Ilse country could be subjected. For these reasons'
no sympathy with the people; and be viewed the its- he fell it his duty
to oppose the motion.
vestigation now called for, as a measure of conciliation;
51e. HOIIHOCSE begged the indulzence of the!
as well as of justice.
Mr. EtIERTON defended the conduct of the Ma- !louse in rising to speak after a discourse of so much
gistrates. Ile thought they had saved the t awn of ingenuity, and especially in reply to a lientlensas of
Manchester from much disturbance; and that if their the legal habits of the lion. Member opposite (Mr.
conduct had been at all illegal, they were answerable
T.viss.) He must say that the Learned Oentlesnan
in the Courts of Law. seemed to have overlooked ell the facts of the case.
Mr. OREN FELL said he was sorry to differ from
He asked, would you not have the. Cavalry defend
those whom he respected, and those with whom he
, t semselves when attacked, as well as the Citizens?
wished always to act. Upon a former oft shin hr
The Learned Gentleman here assumed what had not
had pronounced his opinion on the present subject.
anti could not, be made out—that the Cavalry erne
Ile bad then supported those legitimate measures to
attacked. This he denied, and defies! time Learned
much complained of on that side of the House, and
sientletnan or any of his friends to prove. Not a
be hail now only to state that his opinion was totally
tochanged, and that there was no act of his public life stick was raised, nor a stone hurled by the people till
the work of slaughter by the Cavalry began. As
in which lie looked back with so much self-approblition
ancient adage taught, that if you took a mouse by
so he dial at the support he bad given to those taco- the tail he would bite you, and were men to be
sums.—(Cheers from the Treasury Bench.) butchered, trampled under foot, and thrown down
Mr. BERNAL supported the motion. He maintained uitleout offering resistance. The Noble Lord op-
that the conviction of Mr. Hunt did not affix the stamp polite and the Howe secretary had said, that not
of illegality upon the meeting of the 16th of August. a life was lost on this occasion. This, however.
from the report which he hail seen of that trial, it ap- was muds at variance with a bloody catalogue
peared that Mr. Hunt was found guilty upon the Ids ,•Imicls he held in his hand, collected on better
Como, which charged him and his associates with con- testimony than that of any of the Noble Lord's '11)1'-
41'111g to bring the Government into hatred and con- tuitions out of doors. It was also said, that it was
tempt. As therefore it bad never yet been establialieel matter of admiration that so large a lowly could be dis-
that this was an illegal meeting, the question arose as persed with so little mischief. lie had it from a special
to the legality of time employment of the military; and constable that he saw no less than too thousand people
to get rid of the charge of having improperly employed down at one time. The ropie at 51astchester hail been
the inilitatT, was, in his opinion, the greatest dilemma charged with carrying stones, hut there was no proof
in "Lich the Magistrates of Lancashire stood. Tie that was the ease. It was clear that no attempt was
ebnoi.late this point, he was of opinion that an inquiry made to disperse the mob .bv the civil authorities. The
uu;lit to be instituted. He might be wrong in thr Honourable blenshee also last night stated that it was
"sa* he took of the %%hole transactions, and the best his intention to make the case short, actually made it
course ;1,05r mull false who taunted himself and his longer than it really was. Plans were spokes of to'h
lime. Primed givielt the adage "Waster Itomoinex id gam/
overthrow the Goverinuent, anal it was alleged with
:'.lent csedmat," was to grant them the enquiry they
wonder, that five
caps of liberty were •frizell. lfid the
• .sJst, its order that the facts of the case steiOtt lw
iloacetrable tieutleman ever see an Mil halfpenny, or an
siieited heyonsi the power of doubt. It was much to 1
0...
I
.1. reerettell that Isis Majesty's Ministers hail never 1 pageant, in which the cap of liberty was carried ?It
was once considered an emblem pleasing in time eyes of
'howls the slightest willingness to grant the proposed :
nation, lint it was perhaps iiven •tsp. being the situ-
iatteiry in any shape. Had they even ()tiered to „„,: 1 the
does a Parliamentary Commission be show hay . ; bol
.mmefst.liaer F.rneriirchlieir...olulti_o.67.,_ A.._.i.aUra_sion_..,l.4:l,_beeL..a.
beta satisfied. He would sot at this period be st.,:ts- mad II
Na.t his n. m '''
i.'ll:teli:libignaiglirai.milaitii:sl7l7i,
ility. N mitt Wit deserve i
lied with such a tours', and all eHonourable Friend had berg blausei for sharps tts of
1a111641 at am' proPoseal, be thou ht it as hitleallsisiirrejernt

,• • • •

- .

the were

she blood Oast had bees shat( mot dusk Ilentell tem
bad bees eontissally egisg *lt Ise Ithions. mad Id-
laming tits publk mind. with a view st brining
ala, at a system of general assfuslos.—(Hear. bear.)
It bad been said that justice amid sot be olataised is
any other place except ,ia that Has a. Weald they
attempt to assert that if owlet bed bees essositted.
the murderers could not be brought to punishment?
And if Grand Juries refused to 6ad Bills for murder,
were there not other mesas of redress which might he
resorted to? And why did the Hon. Baronet keep
this motion hanging so long on the books of
meta ? What other motive could he have had, except
to produce a ease effect either in that House or out of
doors?—(H.sr, bear.)--Why did the Hon. Harsait
seek to b lag a ease, which was alone competent for a
Jury to try, before that Assembly, which he hail
always bees endearonring to &grids and 'Mt.....
which he had at public meltings repeatedly abused ?
—(Bear, hear, hear.)-4 by should be submit
the transaction is question to this stused tribunal
',Was he and his ass elates so destitute of resolvers for
seeking reJress, that they could not investigate the
transaction in any other way except by appealing to an
assembly which, in their eyes, was incompetent to de-
cide upon it. Why were not actions brought by the
urged sufferers, before the regular tribunals of the
country? It had been asked, why these things had
not been brought forward on the trial of Mr. Hunt ?
The answer was, that the trial of Hunt had nothing to
do with what had been called the cruelty of the trans-
action ; and because the only question then was, wh4.-
ther the meeting was legal or illegal. Why were not
actions brought against the Magistrates anti Acme'
the Yeomanry ? he reason was, that they had not a
(Jot of groud to stand upon. It might he said, that
these pour people Lad sot the means of bringing ac-
tions ; but the name of the lion. Baronet had hero
laced at the head of a large sobs-rip ion, emanating
to 2,000/., aael nut a shilling of that money was ap-
pli.d to any f nrpuse except that of conducting the
moist unjustifiable proceeding at the inquest of 1/I
ham ; the sole object of which was, that of influencing
the public mind. Why %sere not the foods raised by
sonscription applied to bring the guilty, if guilty they
were. before the competent tribunals? Instead of
i aging Gee parties unto tribunals where evidence
rovelb be given on oath, (and the Gentlemen opposite
formerly cool I fiat hear to hear any statement which
oas oat gi vet on o itt.) these Gentlemen now wanted
to have the whole guilt of the aerosol tried et the bar
of the Haase, where no oath could be administered—
(Hear. hear.)—lie did nut think the House would
tering to its bar 3 ur -WO of the intrepid witnesses
who appeared at Oldham, to extract more truth fleas
Arm 1111 their word of honour, than could be oh
lighted from thou when they made their statements on
Nth. In fact, this motion was made solely with a
view of influencing the public mind ; and as they had
been lately relieved from the de fusion of another great
qu scion—(Hear, hear.)—he would not pay them s
bad a compliment, as to suppose they would suffer
themselves to be deluded on this occasion. He trustee'
Cott tt e voice of Parliament would be always magical
in its influence to direct the public mind.—(llear,
hear.)--Before the Parliament, the delusion of an-
other question had sire ody disappeared, as would the
delusion of the present question, in spite I f all the elo-
quence of the Hon. Baronet. The Noble Marquess sat
dews amidst load cliee. s from the Ministerial Benches.
Mr. SCAILLE CT compared the Noble Marquess to
a Magician, who effected all his objects nut by room:),
but by power. The Noble Lord was sure of his ilea-
jerity, he knew well how to carry war into the enein's
quarter.. The Noble laird's defence was not remark-
able for ttttt &sty. Ile admitted that the trial at York
proved the illegality of the fleeting, but the regulari-
ty of the medals taken fur disper-iou had serer been
poised. It was a tact that ;instils quietly assembled
had been attacked by a military force, and trampled
upon. la such a case, who could say that inquiry
ought not to take place ? It was (the lion. Member
observed) a subject fur Parliamentary inquiry, and the
lion. Baronet oho brought it finis-4rd was not subject
;ea the charge of exciting tumult. Having been alluded
to with respect to the trial, he could only say that his
duty required him to be silent on that subject. Ile
mould only say that the account of the examination of
Mr. Hutton, the Magistrate, was out sufficiently co-
p;.,us and correct. tie believed that the Magistrates
had no intention to call out the military. Mr. Hut-
ton had soured him, on the faith of a Gentleman,
that lie had never ordered the Yeomanry to advance oa
the multitude, and was not aware of their advance ail
sat than euingled pelt melt with the multitude. Ha
eaterwarilv thought he saw them in danger of beiog
oyerpnwered, and on being applied is by Colonel
I.llst.atige to know what be was to do, he had sal 5,
(loud God: do you not see the situation of the leo-
eeta try' ? They most he saved." t'pon this the Colonel
(as he had a right to do) advanced to their relief. Ile
alien deacriberl the evidence of Mr. Tyas, and from what
lee thence collected, corroborated as it was by ether wit.
he could not see that the Magistrates were just
objects of censure. if they had erred at all, their error
hail been very venial. But other parties were concern-
ed in this great question ; the Magistrates, the Consta-
Wee, and Military. He thought from the peculiar sir-
cunistaisces of the case that the Yeomanry of Manches-
ter (to whom be meant no disrespect,) was the wont
to ce that could he enii,loyeil on that occasion, as they
might naturally feel someithat indignant that such a
Meeting should take place under the auspices of an
iuditiolual who had nothing to .lo with the case. Fie
.leseght the Yeomanry Intel made an unnecessary at-
.a k roe the people, but at the same time he admitted that
they might have h. lived that they were only doing their
duty. It had been said that there was some precipit.a.
lion in thanking the Magistrates for what they had
done. Without any view to party feelings Ise must say.
Vest the thanks—tke unqualified thanks which h... 1
been given to the Magistrates and to the military,
appeared to him were calculated to produce exaspera-
tion throuelemet the country. Such a step on the put
of Ministers was calculated to influence the Magistrates,
and ;perhaps the Grand Juries, as from that time it ims
mediately became a Government question, and Wilt:-
duals who were aggrieted, had in consegnesce but little
chance of obtaining redress in the ordinary way. He
considered that the people had alone all they could to ob • ,
lain redress. The Bills they had prepared bad been re-
jected, and be did not know what they could have done

inttileat bat now baron he irsakassa.
of I:Priam—
die far mato*, was a commas es%
bid to be hefted for aosessoae is the *VW"
The iihosoutable °endemism next *decried to the acts
which were passed
l since
inhge.mandeetisangidetegth
ldlenbenoof time subsequent to the Manchester Meet.
twiohnichtohaoad ienizasini
ryl
Adlonst tempos oeeurit regi was a current masim, and
he could not see why the people of England should be
precluded the benefit of it. His Manageable Colleague
would have sooner brought the question before the oo-
tics of the House, but was always prevented by some
means or other. They all knew what happened on the
lab of June last—then the Hon. Illeasber for Durham
came down with his motion, and no time was left for
his Honourable Colleague ; and with what propriety
could it now be said that he came down, after sneh a
lapse of time, to bully the House with the meeting at
Manchester. They all knew how lie was prevented for
the last 3 months from bringing it forward. The Soli-
oitor-General denied that Government had any thing to
do with the business at Manchester ; but the Government
were accessaries, if not before, at least after the fact.
That Learned Gentleman had asked if the Magistrates
of Manchester were to be paralyed ?—Yes, he weal I
paralyse the Magistrates, and take from them a power
which they had abused, and which was only fit to he
exercised in a despotic and a barbarous country. Such
an abuse had, however, been fount' in England, and
when an inquiry as to the circumstances attending it
was Jemmied, dial inquiry was refused. Ile consi-
dered this to be only a part of the system that had
been carried on by the Government of this country
during the last 30 years. In 1194 the French war
was entered upon for the purpose of putting down the
claims of the people far Reform. Then fo dowel the
Bagging Bills; and such an exercise of power as that
now under consideration, was the consummation of the
whole. Let the House then, as long a, it hld a voice
show that its Members had not lost their tue ttttt ries
with their liberties. The lion. Gett;lrman concluded
with repeating a passage from one of Love .'s Epistles
to Attieus, in whirls he describes the corruption and
downfal of liberty its the Roman State.
The M arqness of It )N N DERRY s ;id he would
not now weary Or patience of the Hatt. Ise going
into mare arguments than wee,. necessary upon this
question. He was sure the House would feel that,
after the many appeals that bail been made persanallv
to himself, he should not be justified if he avoided
entering into explanations on the snbject under eLs-
cession : but it did net relate sinspiy to the conduct
of the Manchester Magistrates, hut to the Executive
Government, which was arraigned on this occasion.
He should therefore explain thee conduct which tio.
'eminent had purs•tesl. It had been asserted the
hansartions at Manchester hail taken place in conse•
quern-, of instructions front the Government. That
be positively denied, and would positively assert that
the Executive Government never bad any knowledge
of the transact' until it was stated to them in a
letter from Mr. Hay, the Magistrate. Government
was charged with giving their appruhati of the
Meal that had been spilt at Manchester. In answer
to that charge, be declared that no Government
would be base enough to approve of the she-soling of
blood ; but they could not shrink from their duty, a of
not give their support, in thee first instance, to so; n
who had done every thing in their p 'wet to pre-
serve the public peace, leaving theta afterwards,
however, to he dealt with according to the laws of
the (wintry, if it should appear that they had
offended againi those laws. The Government bad
not expressed the satisfaction at the blood whicn bad
been shed, but that at a moment of great public slaw
ger, there were Magistrates an 4 Yeomen (whom he
considered the constitutional force of the country)
intrepid enough to tare that danger in order to repel it.
Nothing more had been done by the 4 ioveramient thes
that of expressing a general approbation of the cunt
duet of those who bail exerted themselves to preserve
the public peace ; and it was a mo-t unfounded asper-
sion to say that this was a bloody deed perforsesell by
the desire of the Government. This was the second
time of his being arraigned respecting these tratt•ac•
Goo,. The Ministers hail already been arraigned be-
fore another Parliament, and had beets arsioitted hy
a triumphant majority of IMI against ; and he
most sae, that there never was a more decisive vote
than what had been given on that occasion ; and why
was the attention of the public to be again disturbed
on this subject ? Why did the lion. Baron-t suffer
such a length of time to elapse before he brought for-
ward this qn--stion? It was to make an impression of
the. rs.inds of the people, who, he supposed, might have
forgotten the question. The lion. Baronet thought it
convenient to arzue this question as apidied to Man-
chester. Ilia: it was not an insulated question nil
respect to Manchester ; fur at the time the Mao.
chester Illeetits7, there was an org mime I metre.
went in the Metropolis, and ail over the king-
dom. The very individual who went down to Nlats-
chester. had, about the saute till..', presided at a Meet-
ing at Smithfield. the direct object of hich teas revo-
lution and treason. Similar treasonable movement, bad
at the moue time been going foraaid all over the CUM,-
try ; and if tkey had not been vigorously chesicesl,
iosteael of the partial blood shed at Manche-ter, the
country would have been deluged in blood. \tolling
could he more clear titan that the object of "all ti e
meetings in London and the country flats revolution ;
for the people were openly- recontusendeol nut to pay
any tiers, and to endeavour to abolish the Na'
tional Belot. He maintained that not a single f. I
which he had formerly stated, and on which Par-
liament hail come to a suletnn slecisino, had been in-
validated. When a vas: body of peoph., consisting of
60 or ;0,000 had assembled at Manchester, in a usost
terrific manner, in military array, it was the duty of
the Magistrates to have watched that 3letting, sad
to take prompt measures for its suppression. But
he declared they did not art upon any direct in-
struction received from the Executive Government.
They had the authority of Justire Bayley fur %av
ing that the meeting was illegal, and if it was so, tier
Magistrates must have been justified in taking every
neeesaa7 step for its suppression. The Magistrates
did not employ military until they were assured by the
civil officer .that the warrant could nut be executed
vithoet sorb form Every one must lament the ea-
la:nity which then took place ; but the real a• thors o

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