The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-04-12 00:00:00

METROPOLIS ROADS BILL.

Sir J. GRAtIAM 00000 yea that the Petitioners against
this Bill have liberty to be heard by themselves or
their astents nil t!ie Committer.
Mr. D. GILBERT sail, as the interested opposition
to this hill came from the otlicers anil attorneys of the
various trysts %%how it was the object of the labours
of the Consusittee to get rid of. lie had objected to
qbereferring of the fill to a Selef:t Commit!re at all.
He had at last cowentetl to rife the Itill to a Select
Con.mittee, but he should oppo‘e the present moti.in.
The Bill could only be considered as any tither public
, one.

Sir J. GRAHAM said, some most respectable trus-
tees were among the Petitioners against the Bill.
Mr. CHIN'S Hunted there was need to hear
Counsel on the hill.

Mr. Olt FELI. supported the Bill.
A diwkinn nas called fur. lot the Musa did not
divide, and the Nintien was negatived.
Pr. I.::`4IIINtiTON presented a Petition from an
individual it nor.i Thetas. Alerritt. complaining th:tt
his t-;til.lrett h.ol heen taken from him at Liaison hr
the Surto inr of the Irish Convent there, and of other
persecution trit;eit he had sntfered on account of reli-
gion in Portazal. lie hoped the Government would
isuptire into the ease.
Afiet a fi'W words from Mr. F. ROMNSON, who
Mated that he tros entirely ignorant of the tarts alleged
in the Petition, it was laid on thr rthle.
A blessalse from the Lords re.i.n•Ntril that one of the
Clerks of the Howie should attend with the List ttf the
Voters at tirampound, given in by John Teed, 11‘..1.
in bis es.titiitotion hrfore a Conntittee ; end also that
tiostxrits 11:01 itischfnrt Is.tve leitv,• to attend t!.,
Lords' Committee of Ptivilege on t!!e 51archnsount
Perta e.
M. it!)111FORT having stated that lie had no
ohjerCnn. Irate W:l3 given him to attend, and one of
the web directed to attend with the document

SEWERS RILL.
Bir. DICKENSON, having ;nosed that the Arder
of the Day for the apron.' reading of the Sewers Bill
be read, stated, that as there wets many objections to
and pa he had the utmost objection to highs-
late in-hasto ow ashy doubtful point, he should with-
draw the Bill for the present Session. Ile 'Roomed it
necessary, in doing so, to advert to a paper which hail
been ~renlated, signed " Whitton," which impreed
private motives to him in originating this Hill. Ile
(Mr I).) could rive his word and how.nr that Lis pri-
vate it. erect was not in the most remote manlier
af-
factel by this Bill Hear, hear.)—that he hall not an
acre of land that w.inlel hr ;it ail alferted by it. He
did mot intonul to call for any proree•lings against the
antliar of this paper, who, he unierstood, was a Soli-
citor of moinence, ai it was punishineot enough for
any person who stoull in a sintatian approachiug
to
that of a rentleinun, to know that he had stated what
was warm,.
Mr. JENKINSON thoneht that the best coitr4e
we'll.' be to refer the to a Select Cntmuittee r
WV Session. He highly approve•l of the conduct of
the ilonintrabh• Miovi'wr for Sonter-Pishiro, *ho hail
ao personal interest in the nieasitre, and thgneht the
means which were taken to intliteoce votes on this
subject, were mach worse breaches of privitele than
the ridiculous publicatiot:s in newspapers, which hail
sometimos been proce-ded acaiost in the Heusi..
laird O. I'AVENDP-1 I heartily approved of the
principle of the iii!'. but was happy it was now with•
drawn, as much misconception prevailed respecting it.
After a few words from Mr. Dodson, Mr.Wrottesley,
and Sir I. Coffin,
Mr. WYNN said, that the flosionrahle Member for
Somerset atom' infinitely to lii;th to be injured by
such a pUbliCatiAl as that Which had been rend.—
(Hear, bear.)—flit Hon. Friend hail treated the per-
son in iinestion with extreme lenity, as no doubt the
Howse would punish the imputation of iinprop.r mo-
tives to a;:y of its members.
Mr. I). tiII.BER I* said a few words, after which
the bill was withdrawn.
Mr. ELLIS ash Mr. It. MARTIN presen:e4l Peti-
tions from several iiersor,, prayitsz compensation for
losses aostaimed by the abolitiall of certain others in
the Castel of Gone:Lon Pleas in I red an I.
After a few words from Mr. Warre, and Mr. C.
limed, the Petitions vr-re ordered to lie on the table,
and be printed.
On the motion of the CIitNCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER. the several dropped :;rilers of Wednesday
lam, and of yesterday, were read fur the purpose of
brine pos'poned.
Upon the Report of the Ivish Cash Payments Bill
tieing postponed till tro-niorron.
Mr. lIRENFEL, referring to an netlerstandine
which had been mentioned as existing relative to the
Ink of Ireland, expressed his hope that the R.l.urt
would he brought up at a time when it could be eon-
venienly discussed. With respect to the Mater of
the Km): of England, of which there were twelve
Years to crate, he trusted the Charter would not be
renewed prematurely.
The motion was then agreed to.
BRITIsII MUSEUM.

Mr. LENNAR ro.e to moose for a Return of the
Ntroher of AppliestionA for Admiusion to the Library
at the Pritis's Maseimim, which had been pe•tpoteemi,
daring th • la-t ire year!. It wss stated in time NOtarn
which bad been made to the House on a former occasion
that no appileatiotts had been refnaid. hat that tiles
were nom* postponed, and that. in fart, the lumber
of adasiasiour was as de.' I. a‘ pr:s4i!,:e cu-extensive

with the number of applications. When it was recol-
lected, however, that these applications were postpowed
till the parties obtained recommendations from sob,.
Trustee or Officer of the Museum, the postponement
would, in many instances, amoont to a virtual refusal ;
and he could not help athuiring the ingenuity of the
tientleincu who had been employed to make out that
return. He was perfectly ready to admit the neces-
sity of taking due precautions for ascertaining the ►e-
spectability of the persons applying for admissior,
lint if they were called upon to produce the testimo-
nials front some Noble Person, a Minister of State, or
the Head of a College. the great objects of the Insti-
tution troald be entirely frustrated. In point of fart
no g. .ater security was obtained by the recommenda-
tion of ►orb persons, than would be obtained by the
rea•oneuseuaiation of any other persons of equal rank
with the applicants. The Hon. Member concluded by
moving, that tin rr he laid before the House au Ac-
count of all the Applications for Admission to the
Reaping Room of the British Museum within the last
I five years, which had been postponed, till the persona
furnished the required references.
Mr. BANK ,•S said, the lion. (Tent. Val aJtnitted
that hr did rot wish too large a di.eretion to he earn•
rased, an•l he could not agree with Lim ti.at the rules
adopted b) the Ti ustees of the British Mose= ft
the atlon6zion of ;rer-mis to the reading rno:u trete to
nat row. be prAtponeutent of applications teas by co
nleillS rantainott”t to 3 refusal. Besides. the strict
rule was frequently relaxed in favour of applteaat•,
who u 4-1 e lit ikersons to be admitted. Thuslientlenst.t.
from the l'niversity, who earue to matte a short stay in
the metropolis, were uniformly admitted, without go-
ing throni;li the form of procuring a reemotnentlation
from a Trustee. Uotler theseeirenmstances he should
certaitdt• recommend the lion. Gentleman to withdraw
his motion.

Sir C.. LONG onus"' the motion. The lion. Ilfofm•
ber hail state,' no ease of individual grimace I and he
believed the rules laid down by the Trustees of the
_Museum were sur:i, as acre eakulsted to give every
facility to persons, wbo !night to be admitted, rot-
sisteniy wild a dn.. regard to the security of the r
!liable national collection, of which they were the
parities's.
31r. DICKI-77:SON here testimony to the farilittes
which had b.ru afforded to himself *fur admission to
t he readinr-rooni Museum.

'dr. H. Mit \ET objected to the motion. With re-
gard to what le..d been slid on a former discussion, as
the facility of ace:•••.• to ti.e King's Library at Paris.
being much greatrr than at the Hritieh alttseum, he
would only observ,., tl:at the reading room at the 14,-
tisk Museum, u.ts open six hours a day, with the ex-
ception of only three treks' vacation daring the who!kt
year, whereas the library at Paris was wit but four
I hours a day, a .d there %vas a vacation %Asia weelvs in
the year, besides other holidays.
Mr. I.EN\rlltll replied. The Honourable Cen-
tletstan opposit • had sail that no case of individual
grievance Irid been p,oducril,. and he should there-
lure slate tole r tso instances to the !tense. gee-
tlemau in the L,•.:•, contributed to the
library, anal r..reive7l the %listens of the British
Aln-
scum, haul written a letter to Mr. !Tanta, retitsestin.r
admission to t:le reading' room. Mr. Planta returned
a very civil aosiv,r, but :It the saute (Lase stated, th..t
the applicati.m etothl 11.4 b granted, without a ree.oti -
:u. utlation fruits a Trustee, and Cie timitleumia Ict l n•ut
been ahle to obtain :admission, 'hones three months haul
%lapsed itsye hi• .IpOicx•ion. :In %tiler limit:ratan,
hie hlt conn,•ete.l tlo• City, the sun of an eminent
Pauf,•s••,r at tie Is ta, applied to he admitted, for the
purioose seel!i4 the man.i,eripts of Itoussea.t.,
worit.„ and haul we: ived a similar answer. It woul.l
per.e:lly practicable to furnish the House wide
wr.ttLot copies of all soils al plications. and if the.
were not .I.me, the House aail the public be
able to jo ter what iras meant hy the a ord " post-
Ipon.auvist " in the p irlanre, of the British Museum.
ArtEr a few words fro n Mr. lIANKE4 and Mr.
iN, the 'notion wa, negalved without a division.
Mr. HI:ME said, that having observed a notice of
the .le %ft% of a Gentieutan who tilled the office of Ite-
ceiver-Geee!al to firer!: Wi:qi he wisised to
ask t'ie honourable Gentleman opposite, whe-
ther it was toe intet,t7an of his Majesty's Ministers
to 11:1 up the oilier without any p .evions inquiry into
the eirt ta:tit:it had been alluded to on a
forna•r night "c
The LII.V.VCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
understood to sty, that he was not able to give the
lloroutahle Gentleman any iaformation upon Slit
subject of his hooky. He wished to know from the
hiono..r..hie Gentleman ((Jr. Hume), whether, is the
iin:,voitlahle absence of his Noble Friend (Lord
Castleteagh), it was his intention to bring f 'maid
his motion whirl, stood for to-morrow, fur the Disfesa-
lineation of Ordnance Officers and others from voting
fur %!..m.wrs of Parliament?
I Mr. lit:ME--Wl.rn the Hight Hononrable Oen-
tieman answers my qn..stion, I shall be very ready to
&lib We( lan0o.)
OPPRESSION AT lI.tIIESTER 0 AOl..

Mr. Aid( man iVilt)lr pr st:ii:eti the following r-
ti:iod:—
" T., the Hononrihte the Commons of the United ILlosido.it
oftlreet aritain and Ireland. in Parliament asseethlf.i.
•• The Ilnuitile Petition tifJa•ces Hillier. a prisoner ia
. 13jeaty's iiaoi at licia.azer, is the county of
•• • 0-1-7,rt.
i• Mu- I htutoqr Sileiteth—..That your Petitioner is
confittril in Isis Maiest:-.. cwt at ilchester, si.iiler a wit-
h-nee elf eigl.tren ills, for stealing in a shop at Brit-
ten : that some tics, in :he melwri week in i'elir.stry last,
yen'. Petitioner awl weather pr;•ini.er were piayind 4'
Lambe-cap for a few that P.notner pre-uar. con-
fined for a sitniiar (deny- (a'la'i:){.) of the saute of
Penny. haring interfered, a siinahlAc ensued, whereuposi
the nail! Penny reported your Peti:idaer to thetite.e::i.r
for haring played at hustle-rap ; upon which year Pe•i-
tioner was linasediasels plated in heavy stouts," is'et-.
twin doubled. so that lie rased not move his Ire% moor•
than nine Weis" upset 1 hoodoo& erre deem plated epees
him. lead a chain passed from the fetters threogis obi
baulks's. so that yaw Petitiowr was literally chained
do• Alt neek and hf 4141 together. ti. w44`
Away and thrown auto a cold,

cell, where he remained till the next dav, when be TAM
led down before the visiting Magistrat•es awl another
(Lint{email, who, altar lecturing our Petitioncr, and
s 'offing at his humiliating awl sbgrailing situation of
tieing so chained and ironed, they °rile' ed pint. Petitioner
hack again into the n litary cell. where be remAined
in the whole fir the ;puce of nine ;lays and nights in
Oils deplorable state, without !whiff able to put his hands
to his mouth, to stand upright, or lie straight, stiles' it
was when the chain and handcuffs were taken off for
about an hour e night, to allow your Petitioner to
take his bread and water, and easetlse calls of nature ; for
the reraaining 23 hours, lir continued in this distressing
and painful situation, with the exception of having the
handcuffs off since to go to chapel, anti once or twice for
a few minutes. when he prayed to be suffered to go to the
priry. Your Petitioner never saw a 31igistrate thring
the whole time after, although the turnkey informed him
that Dr. Colston and other Magistrates (rad been at the
prison upon the ?...2rl of February ; hut they critelly ne-
glected to visit or relieve your Petitioner from his. hor-
rible situation. Thus your Petitioner lay for nine days
anal c4lits without once being allowed to have his
s lathe olf or any relief whatsoever, with his arms swelled
with the pressure of the handcuffs to such a degree, that
the iron negs there,if were almost buried in his flesh.
and when the Woke% took thesis off towards the latter
part of this tinge, they wet.' oblil; ell to use considerable
force and violence to get them nit of the flesh ! This
only excited the merriusent of Pike, the turnkey. who
kviyised at you! Petitiouer:. sufferings.
Mr. Alderman WOOD then rose to prefer the um-
tiuu of which be bad given mulct! for a Committee on I
the subject of the Petition he hail just presented. He
wished the House to understand that lie did not bring
charges without being able to substantiate [bens, and
that be was lin:parrs' to des so on the present °erasion,
by the evidence of pris•iners anal others from the yawl
of fiches:tr. Ile understood that no objection would
be made to the appointilielit of a Committee of In-
quiry. The objects with which this Committee would
Lave to charge it'.-lf, according to the complaints
a Lich had ensue to him, were, in the first place, the
141.struction of the gaol itself, which was situated
bear a river, and in other resperts on a spot so injudi-
clunsly selected, that last winter it WAS Covered With
n.ater fourteen or fifteen inches deep, and so damp was
whole gaol, that typhus fever was very prevalent.
With all this unhealthiness of situation, there was no
ialirmary attached to the building. Another fault of
t onstruction was, that there was no place distinct
lion the other prisoners for the female debtors, two
whom were at this moment couliurel with the worst
sliaracters for their associates; and one female debtor,
u sespectable Quakeress, was kept in solitary confine-
toent, becan ie she did nut choose to be similarly
paced in the gaol. Another grievance much felt
gad
complained of was, that the common sewer of the
town, wis so near the riy o. that it had freqnently
bioke in upon the supply of water to the gaol. Sonic
of this water lead been 'brought to him to London,
and it rerteinly was Of a moist noisome nature. With
teliect to the complaint against the Governor, of
course it would be usolerstood that be stated that
reli in Li. capacity as member of Parliament, and
3.• it in an; wey pledging himself to support it from
Lis 01VI1 personal knowledge. All lie hail to do, was
t I satisfy himself that the allegations came respectably
a-Trotted, which he had do;ie. Ile understood also
tl.at great severity existed with regard to the rules
fear anointing the wives of do prisoners, who were
ley allowed to bee them intermingled with the miser
prisoners, where they were lorked up from live in the
oveltiog till eis,lit in the following eiorning, without
in..; proper couveniesice fur the waists of nature. A
gira• autioyatire to tile, persons confined in this prison
noel tva,. found in the lisiveroor keeping his house open
all night, fosteting riot, drunkenness, and gambling.
Ti.is lie knew to be a fart—knew the names of all the
rrsuns who fiequented these nightly meetings. A
eel c roan of the neighbourhood, it notelet be given
in evidence, had lost in guineas in one night. He
really thonght that npun this statement, which he
assured the Hon .e he was ready to substantiate, and'
even upon the allegation of the petition alone coin-
Tl:iining of unexampled severity and cruelty, the
lbo.ie might grant a Committee to investigate the
platter. If these assertions turned out not to be true, !
tte keeper would have the benefit. He then nieved,l
se That a Select Con 111 l itter lie appointed to inquire,
Kral report to this House, what has been, and at pre-
Knot is, the condition of the prisoners confined in
Ilehester Gaol ; also to examine the site and state of
Me building, and report their observations on the same
to this House."
• Mr. BUXTON seconded the motion, but said that
iri duleig so, lie dill not pledge himself to ally opinion ;
his object was to ascertain . shetker the charges
nere true or false ; they were charges of the
si.ott serious nature, and if they were not sub-
a:antiaterl, be hoped every one, and especially
the Worthy Alderman himself, would join with
him iu giving the character of the gaoler its just
vindication—(hear, hear,)—but if they were true,
or if upon evidence it would appear that they bore the
Slightest approximation to truth—if any one of the
gross act, of irregularity and debauchery charged on
the gaoler bad been committed, he was sure every
Menebei won'd join with him in detecting such also-
sidahle proceedings, and visiting the gaoler with the
envies; punishment.-i-(liear. Lear, hear!)—He was
charged by a person who had published a pamphlet
osi the subject of the prison (Mr. Ilunt) with having
given a high character of the lustitution contrary to
at fact. lie could only say, that be had visited the
prison, and discovered the errors of its construction,
but found there such a system of discipline and in.
dustry, as reflected the highest credit on the charac-
ter of the Gaoler for ability, intelligence, and atter-
flan to his•duty—(hear, hear)-..-but he acknowledged,
tl.at in minor matters it was possible that he might
be liable to deception—whatever was good in those
thingi was Made obvious to every one, what was evil
aas concealed—(bear, krar)—aud kept out of view.
Ile bad gone to the prison, unacquainted eveu Nitta
the name of the gaoler ; he did not even know oiM.of
the lilagistratec, and it was through the intervestimi
of a friend that. he procured admission. What be bad
seen he had faithfully described; if he had beta i..
posed upon when he gave that' description, therio-Wiss
but one atonenient which be could make, Mk irelie
wai, .that when ii the Camoilttee .W9Oll
reads to expose his own mistakes astisomer ingbadt I
olio: Hr would most heartily jnisoni* the Allerehr.
Mdeensan to decoct the %rani► ant he Pernuldiehrerhlr
Alien to do isidee OA* cliereetirlet *
it ivrs die*. ibit iii#B3:l4l4:*o
410 taitaf *et 14Wistitot; „ • "'! 44.
M. meggitSON ''ter `s

41 • kw

ri-qE sT%.

hot acts of eruelt v laipletel to the geol.—, knowing, ;v
he diet, his chararer, wed ronsidcring bine incapable
of such conduct ; bat holier the ele irges were true
or false he did not think that 411. y share 1,1 blame
should fall upon the Magistrstet., who hail alerts been
most ready tare-dress every grievance which they beard
of connected with the gaol. As to what the Worthy
Alderman said of irri—nlarity buying taken glare in
the gaoler's !moat., when the knowledge of it came to
the ears of the Magistrates they dirt not lose a clay in
instituting an ispirs.-, and the rests!' was that they
foun.l it passed withotit the knowledge of the gaoler.
_—(Hear, hear.)—It hail happetsed in leis absence,
aTIII the servants, to the number of tire or six, who
were Droved to be the real offenders, were dismissed.
Ile that tl.e construction of the gaol was
faulty, hut he thou: ht the accommodation for the pri-
soners very good, although the number 63(1 increased
of late far beyond what the gaol was built to contain.
The hospital was also in prooress. Mr. Hunt lead
stavd that the well water WAS not gond, hest Ise saw it
and it looked good and elver. It was not trite either
that the fonaidation of the gaol was belaw the bed of
the river, on the contrary. the bed of the river was I;
feet hdow the teed of the gaol. He denied that
Father Church, the female debtor of the S4.cirty n(
Friends, whose Case load been alluded to by the Wor-
thy Alderman, was conioeliell to solitary confinement.
and he read extract:: of tare letters on the siltsjee, to
stein that she lead been offered some person to remaie
along with her, Isit peeferred bring elem., and wars
afterwards visited by her fiends. As to the pro-
priety of some inqiiery lee (lid not doubt, tinder the
circumstances, bu: lee would prefer a Commission to a
Counsaitter.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN stated, that having peen re.
presouted by the writer of a pamphlet on the gaol, as
haring played cards there, and got ilrteilk—( Laogle-
ter,)—he would suppott the motion for investigation.
(Hear, hear.)
Dr. LI7SHINOTON bore testimony to the talents
and activity displayed by the Gaoler in the conduct
of Ili:Lester Gaol. As there were faults in the con-
struction of this building a Commission would be the
proper thing to take the matter in band; lint as
cruelty was also charged. ke scarcely knew whether
that would be adequate to answer all the objects of
the inquiry. Having the pleasure to know the Gaoler,
he certainly should not *aspect him of being guilty
of what was charged again it him ; but he had met,
even in the Borough Compeer, where he should heat
have expected it, cases which Pe did not think could
be justified. lie allude I to Cie cirensostan ee of t .vo
women of the town having heroic:lamed there rntnu7st
the tither prisoners, fur demo-ilea,: conduct, acid being
kept in a state of actual nudity tor eleven
Mr. BENNE IT thought a Cousenittee of the House
would do better than any other tribunal that could be
appointed. They had lead experience enough of Com-
missions, in the manner in which the Lincoln Gaol
Commission fonil ii tell its, If.
Sir T. LETIIIIIO ME was satisfied that the pre-
sent ace usation spritisg from Ire loin individual con-
fined ire that gaol, and was convinced that it would be
found there was oink in it. A Cinnorissio* would
iu Isis opinion be mu, li bear, than a Committer.
Mr. PREP;:' should vote for a Committee tallier
than • Commission, because the House woOld thei
have thee power in their own hands, and whereas in a
Commission it was plaits that a job woold be made alit.
Mr. 11. BRoWN hoped the lionise would not allow
itself to be led int , a serious discussion by all the
babbling trifles that were attired with respect to
every gaol in the Li eigdom. The appointment Com-
missions or Committees was a puircr which the llow.e
oug'ilt to exercise rarely.
Mr. Ht. ME condemned the conalnet of the last
speaker, in calling 'motels of the greatest weielet anti
importance by tlie name of trifles. The Ho-
nourable Gentleman had not even been long. mop;
present to know what the eliscee..sion Was opose.
Mr. D. BROWN explained. '4,
Mr. Alderman WOOH shortl:ti replied. He was
willing to give in to n Commission, it it were. com-
posed of Members of that House, noiniereted that
House.
Mr. ROBINSON repelled the insinuation of the
How/terabit. 31ember fur Appleby, that it was wished
to make a job of this commis; . It ranee well frosts
that Honourable lieutlenian, and was too paltry to
affect biro (or his le-Pools about him. It was impossilile
that a fondness' could be appointed as the Worthy
Alderman wished
Mr. HARlll►ltltsaid, that all the Members which
could be useful on such a Ir. • sion were engaged
its Committees set p staii s, and could nest be spared.
But be protested agaies:A paying any commission.
Mr. HUSKISSON observed, they would only be
paid their expense e.
Mr. IiOULBIAIN noised an .leisenelment, the.t
an
humble Address be presentee' is. his 3lajeov, raving
the will be graciously pleased to appoint a commis-
sion,
Mr. BENNET hoped the Honourable Gentlemen
opposite would negatise the original motion, and
then give notice of another on which there might be
discussion.
Mr. HABBORD obsee s eel, that a commission
I
migiet grow out of the Committee, and it was really
Wbe desired that Honourable Gentlemen would lay
aside party feelings tin a question of this kind.
Mr. DICKENSON wished to know how it was pos-
sible to ascertain the truth or falsehood of the allega-
tion with respect to the spring water by a Committee
of the House op stairs. Ile was informed the Worthy
Alderman had taken no outice of the case quoted by
,the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on the floor (Dr.
Lushington.)
Mr. Alderman WOOD said be was ready to meet
tbat case at any time. It could, slot be supposed that
tire Coast of Aldermen would not clothe two poor
wretches when they clothed thousands every year.
Mr. CREEVEV repeated Isis dislike to Couisois.
&ions, He referred to the Coussuission which had ex-
isted for five years upon the fees of Courts its Ireland.
There bad been five Commissioners. at 5001. a-year, and
in five years they had only made three pitiful Reports.
'Dr. LUSH INGTON said that be came down to the
Howe wills an iutentiou of voting fur a Committee.
ligoigls however satisfied, that a Commission would
tli taut desirable, and be should therefore vote
dscasbeisdusent.
t Ilelli7RS'r said that the lion. Member for
•
toy ad unfairly cuun!ctail Isis blaiesty's Goyim
meat with what he was pleased to call a job, in the

;-;_‘;

sw.
appointment of the Co ► mission PS which Jiff hail al-
indc•d. ' The fart wa-, that the Live members of the
thsvernsuent who were present when that I'o►nmissiol
had always been charged with bring
against that proposition. Tl.ev disl oppose its twit*
e% tended to England and Scotland, hei.ause the rca-
s.►ns urged in its favour, were only said to exist in
Ireland. This being the Calif', it was quite unfair in
the Non. Member to endessvonr to make the appoint-
ment of the Commission a job, and then to bring it
home to the linvernment.
Mr. BUXTON wished too4fer *a suggestion which
mut reconcile alt rliffei•eners. He thought an ioves-
ligation might be made before the appointment of
either a Committee or a Comississinn, anal the worthy
Alderman was a most proper individual to conduct it,
becaii.,e he had already been its Ilchester
(A langli.)—From the strict 'crummy with which he
at that time saved the city money, they might expect
that the funds of the. House would also he economised
u much 33 possiblv.
Alderman WO 1) explained, and exprested Isis wil-
lingness to wi►hdraw his motion.
Mr. 111-SKISSON suggested tb:►t the motion being
amended could nut he withdrawn, but that the amend-
ment tistyst lie carried.
Ihe motion was then put and negatived, and the
amendment carried.
'I he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
proposed a list of names for the l'ouiiiiibbion which
was adopted.

ARM ESTIMATES.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX
CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into a Cous•
mittee of Slimily.
Lord PA IsMERsTox rocreArd to move the se-
main ing A resy Estimate., The Noble Lord's first
Itesolistion was that a sum our exceeding li.rsh U. he
granted for sit:having the expence of the Adjutant
General's Other.
:%lr. HUME was sturdy at a loss to know fur what
purpose such an expence was neceesary. In 1796 or
1795, a period of war, the whole establishment of the
office of the Commander in Chief consisted of Sir H.
Bisehury oust three Clerks. The expense of that
estabiishment in the present year was near 6,000/. for
Clerks, besides 8,000/. for the personal staff. He
could nut conceive how the :1,661/., which was the
proposed stills for Clerks in the Adjutant-General's
office, could be expended. In 1792 the Adjutant Ge-
neral was allowed only 500/. besides his staff pay,
The count: y being now in 4 %ituition in which every
pound that could be saved ought to he saved, be
thought the 3.4 6V. might be reduced to 1,66 11., and
he therefore moved a an A onseisslusent to the Noble
Lord's Resolution, to substitute the inns of 5,344/.
fur ti,`%;') 1/.
Lord PALMERSTON sshierved, that the duties of
the Adjutant-General', Office were very midtilarious,
and quite slissi net from those of the COllllll4 odes in Chief.
There w:c. no ofits- stonier Governmeut in 5% kirk the
clerks %VP' e iloprr r011.41.11/tly employed. The Wily ques-
tion theref are Ws( , whether the business should be carried
on in the present distinct way, or in the *ague mantles its
whirls it gas performed in 1792 ? In 1792 no traces of
services or conduct could be found. Now every claim was
attended to, even if it were made by the iensublrst
in-
dividual in the army. Ile hail seen 100 letters ou the
,object of the chins of a private soldier.
Colonel I)AVIES allowed that there was much busi-
ness transacted its the Adjutant-GenerarsOffice, and that
it was not desirable to go back to the system of 1792.
But Isis Honourable Friend made us such propusitiun.
His Amendment was, to allow three times the sum ex-
petaled in 1792.
Mr. HUME observed. that in 1804, the expense of the
Adjutant-lierseral's afire was only 5,9771. although ties
country was then engaged its an extensive war, which
t have rendered the duties of that office much more
burdenansie than at present. He maintained, tls.st the
reading of about one hundred reports in the year, di-
vided ttttt fuser .Adjutaista-lieneral, was not a very
heavy claim ou their time.
Lard PA IsMERSTON complained that this was a sills
sepresentation on the part of the Honourable Member
for Aberdeen; and again essuusesated the other duties ut
the office.
Air. BENNET observed, that the propeeitian of hi,
Honourable Friend was founded on the Report of the
Cu 1111 l sitter of that Iluttsi-, isppoitsted, and he might say, I
packed, by the Gentlemen opposite ; which Report, it
as generally understood, proceeded from the Treasury
itself. He contended, that the reduction of else number
of regiments must Isisve considerably reduced the duty '
of else Adjatanis-lietierid's office. Hewished to ask the
Meuse, whether, ill the present stale of the country, they
were determined wit to reduce one shilling of these e
mates ? If JO, every hoisest usan would know what to
think of then,.—(llear, hear, hear!)
Lord PA IsM EILSTI IN explained.
Mr. JOHN SAirrii wished to put a rinestims to the
Noble Lord, which had been put twice already, but bail
not received au answer. Au Honourable Baronet, who
had been in the wisrasifice, gas stspevanunated on a pen
sion of -16t4/. and nab• nevertheless, in the present 1111`.
session of title of the most lucrative govenments the
West Indies, that of Tr• • lad. Otivn what principle did
such ass individual enjoy a superannuation pension?
Lord PA LMERST4 IrN replied, that Sir Ralph Cooper,
the Honourable Bart. isqnestion, hail been a Clerk in
the Foreign Departasent of the War Office, on the abo-
lition of which, lse received, as was invariably the si -age
in Intel' ewers. the pension to which the Honourable Coen-
tleruan alltuled.
After a few observations from Me. Tremavne, Mr.
Hume, and Mr. Monet, the Committee divides).
For the Amendment 54—Againstit tl3—Majority !9.
On Lord PALMERSTON'S moving a Resoluti ,
that a suns not exceeding 6,192/. he granted to defray the
expense of the Quartet-Msrster-tieneral's Office.
Mr. HUME objected to the Resolution. Altl
glt
the office of the Qsarter-Master-Geneeal was very ne-
cessary and important in time of War, it was quite
strons that the country should be biscilened with so mane
Quarter-Master-Benerals in time of peace. He thought
that it ought to he reduced in a stun of 1,500/. a-year,
and should therefore snore, as an amendment. that a
suns, not exceeding 4,692/. 7s 10d. be granted to de-
fray the expenses of this depastment.
Lord PALMERSTON observed that the Honourable
Member was upon this occasion completely caught in
his own toils ; for this was one of the estaldishments
which was precisely un the saute footing of expense
that it stoodia 17N. The Noble Lord went on to state
that there had lately been added the charge of the Li-
t Lie press, a system Which was highly beneficial
slit'olgorellif
y to the deportee* Itself. but also in taking
down for the House of Commons, plans of a most va-
luable nature, and which roust otherwise be wade at a
considerable charge to the country. , •
Mr. HUME observed, that it appeared from the
Eleventh Report of the Military ComMittee,- that no se-
prate Return had bee* Oat 4. Use Quarter-Msslart-
ileneral's departinent Woes , .
ci
Colonel DAVI liel sappoes2lll±eilEitteit.
w Colonel TRANT as a,l • .0( Qnlikter-,
MasetwAiaaeral was wasesdialli ascisiity tisiii`iif WWI

Sir It. PRittirSl /N. of er a few Isilse;l'.l6 j la
the. (aim of Quarter-Mister-General,
the iiiiprotarety of semliog nut ►r,.. , a tins west
dies 41 an
,impis.Der segt..l:l of the Vett. In Imil
-:
!SID, the 93.1 regiment of Ilighi.amietb teen se,
to the West ladies at au tattpr Ter ,e.tsttn, amt he M
ferred the llow,e to the Returns isa the Talile tur
the
sufferings of
of thrthtehlint
pgarafilrplest,rn:t
)rs.erigibilit.iasattiEnti e-a. made hr
tps
inadnetr:rtso
at such a ceamot.
Lord P.II,NIERSTON nkers-1-41, that flos-rrnment aa,
iunnaZeiirlatho ary into el
i 3
c.nrhtigPliib
tTci the
ltli then
tne::
of the army.
Sir R. FERGUSON aShefi, whetter a represeptatip,
of what lie had alluded to lag I no: been matle by tee
phatisers of the island ?
Nlr. 60(71,111:RN assayed the I ionourahle and fia1;11,
(:corral that no such reprets?istat.ion had rt•
at r .t
e.
After a few word's front Mr. 111-11 E,
Colonel JIMINS'f ONE (Observed, that
seen a Quarter-duster-tienerwl pre,vist at the ettb,,,,,.
'
ing sir ilisemliarking of the troops at Lislion.—(ll,,,
Cislossel TRANI' Kahl, that a Qoirter-A 0,
nter.t4,;'l
..
oit;!lii to have attentlisl, and could have been pusis'ant
fist neglecting to do soon siteli orea.lints.
After a few observations from Col. JOIINSToNg.
A MPMIIER under the Gallery, tra..se Whir we
cotil.l not learn, obserretSe that lie bath himself .11 tt• l ss
Quarter-Ma-ter General, and had persaaant•
the eitsharitin4 of the treivt at Varian% guff
had seen even the nonos:e.l, who were neres:arily
last, einhaske.l.—(lll-ar, hear.)
I'itemn.YI.II)IINSTONE repeatel. that he had Inc:
' seen a (,);tarter-.Nasser-f tnere I pre..eiit at I id.e.c
or \Lin flay. W;tli relbert to l'orininl he Is4l
only to •,by, that hitch was the voislo,ion in ensbar'Al-,
the troop• , that they w..tit lei, kle on tb;:;,rd
the different ..hips; in fact tit: re were path of is
than 1; ilifferynt regiments on board the ship in ‘+h(ll
he 1:;41111, lints e—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir R. Periison. ties fipp.
net, Sir L. Cole, Colonel Johnstone, awl haze
the House divi•letl.—For the .lusentlitscut
it 10.1—Majarity against it 41.
The original Resolution then put and aerie!.
'File next Resolution proposed was, th It a ,Itta
exceeding 9221. he granted for the office of Depate.
Qua. ter-Master-General of ..ristlistid..
NI r. E made some -observations upon the
lure of this office, to which Lord Palmerston oldie&
but the noise occasioned by the return of straair.et,
the Gallery prevented us from ratchisi7 what-wassail
Mr. RENNET moved as an Amendment, that tie
sum should he reduced to fold/.
burl PALMERSTON unaintinted the necessityd
haring such an officer to regulvte the movements d
the troops throughout the country, so that thiferett
parties sh sold not clash. in Mock progress.
Mr. W. SIIITII thought it rather extraordinary tht
the country should be subjected to site), an ITease,
merely for the purpose of regulating the mummies
of two ree hewn's oiler in a year.
The LORD A Ifft tt.:ATE observed, he the time
had not long elapsed since many te..inients had tb
w.bisl.l i.sl; holier that
melniatlrcubotuiterino:irelagtiLwisattuilieltle
iiirteiclame of a proper of

firer ?
Lord P.IY.MEHSTON repeated li: , row irtins tlo. I
sorb an officer was necessary ; for it sou Ii an euel-
gency were again to arise, thedistriootion atilt. Irlol a
woobl require his interference.
Mr. W. 5311.r11 said, that the argameet I A the Ns.
ble Lord retnitithil hint of the 'Amen. Ciiiiiluissiiintr%
in Dublin, who 'erre still kept up, tint becalue there
was, but because there might he a lottery.
The (MANI '11:I.LOR of the EXCHEQUER ilerlantl
that the Commissiouers were disetwti:itted, 0010 it
was true that they still hail an allowance.
Mr. IV. 5311'I'H thought the explanAtion made the i
matter worse, instead of better.
The Committee then divided as follows
For theA meniline ad :.ti—against it 9 4—Majorill!
Ito onr re-admission to the gallery, we foetid Mt.
!freq.:den potting' the lie...dation fur a grant of 3,18!".
to the Judge Advocate I ie;,eral.
Mr. CH KEW VND objected to the rrant arm Peg
gate expenditure of th.. Wilk: money. The anise.
once to the Judge Advocate exceeded the 'atm of
the Lord Chief Justice of England, and be hai
is
only a Deploy Adjutant, lint an Asistant Pettey la
his office. De hoped that the contAry Gentlemen
would retne,.ilier their ple•le.es to their cmstitnent..
and draw the sti i ngs of the public purse A little tiyhter.
With that view. lie should move, as an amendment
tl.at the slim of 3,150 t. should be granted in the roma
of 5,1410.
The .J 1 'DGE A 1/1.1 /CATE complained that the lion.
Lent. al 14 have brought the cluir7e of profligate et-
penditure again-•t hiui, without having prrcioo3l it
formed li;iiiself of the fact. The present arrangeseal
had been math. in I SO7, anal the duties ef dwell*
lead considerably ism:reused. The salary d Ike
Judge Advocate General was not, as the 0"•
Gentleman supposed, 5,180/., but 2,500 f. a-year; 14
when they knew that the correspondence hai eM6'.
derahly increased iu the department since that rot
and that the military business of Ireland INK, I°
added to that of Scotland and England, he was or
that the Committee would not look upon the rot"
exorbitant
Sir It. FEROUSSON perfectly agreed with*
Ilon. Gentleman as to the extravagance of the in
proposed ; and wished to know at h.ow many OW"
Courts Martial the present Advocate General lid pft
sided ? If the offices be necessary he had nooti ;
r
lieu to give the minim but be denied that the KO
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Racket) was the official per"'
The Deputy Judge Advocate was the person w ho pe.
formed the whole of the business of the office.
Mr. W. SMITH observed, that the mom'rtl a" 11".
'Gentleman (Mr. LI etwynd) spo'ee of profligate ar:
diture, time Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Becket) 0"*.
nt
the observation to himself, whereas the Hon. tie
it
snail merely spoke against the system. He (Mr.Sw._l')
was nut surprised that the Hon. Gentleman shoal(' 6:t
scribe the system as profligate in the extreme; tor
(Mr. Smith.) and the Hon. Gentleman were, r' is"e
than yesterday, on a Committee, before which. it s.,
!peered that a certain officer had a salary of IP.,
year, that his Deputy proposed to do the lonsinr".:
t 011 t. a year, and after all, the business was ntol a
l7ai ___r
:either by the principal or the deputy, but by

mon Clerk.
Afteia few words from Mr. BECKET.
Mr. CHRTIVYND explained. lie felt he, wok°
Itified iu calling the arteas a prodigate Tams

-i

.11•ImmemimEniii'lwA