The Statesman.
London, England, 1814-11-22 00:00:00

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Lord A LMERSTON said,
1r •
that if an account 4.lerritor • . 'b H It 4 coutitryltaPlorihump. judgMe'ikt of these lawyers', ,he said that the King •ys was II WHIC r.
.itatiiitt thd
the number of troops in Belgium' was gieen,-enquiritis' tonshire. 'They also had proposed two conditions was not cuncdived legally to possess the power to AMERICAIi PAPltillri.. •
tp/VreeproosedYabck
might arise as to the number employed in Gerioa, iln: is 'a tine on a non—a pacification of the Ame- retain one. part of' the/ inititii-'and •to 'disband the •• -
•• --400.'--
thigevilenriintigshiipnegslo'citatttoerie
.., • ... ..;
the !onion Islands, in America. The House had ati!vicanS vvith• the Indians,. and the erection of In in- other : that by law his Majesty. was not authorized termsTh
t•.• • •. : l. The claim of the British fo take their oven seamen
times been informed of the number ottroops at home dependent territory for theinslianeout of the grOund to call out the militia of Northumberland or Devon- t.,
from American Zesseh. t 2. A definite settlement of
~ nanvel...
and the number of those abroad, but never of the which the Americans claimed, . Then a new front Shire, or that of any Other-ioun y in particular, but
distribution more minutely. ' tier was required for. ourselves. On these points the militia gerrerally'elid It .WaS obviously abardship the boundary line of the Indium' territory-- not td
Mr. TIERNEY said, that as far as his memory the President had no power to negociate, of neces- to one or more regimeets .otosilitia to be .eompflled be altered by purchase or otherwise;
served him there were twenty rases where the general - sity they were submitted to Congress,- On trifling ito serve while others were disembodied. 3. A ,revitiffe
• distribution of the troops had been stated. He did points-the President might negociate. It had been ! Mr. BATHURST denied that this Wasth 0 t In- municati 'by land 'b . -
of the boundary line to facilitate the British cOmue
4. The military bcrupation of the Laket by the '
not enquire, however, as ,to the number of troops in said that it would have been - inconvenient to have stance of such a proceeding; on fOrMer' 'oCCcrlons onetwern Ilatirai and Quebec;
Belgium, that he already knew, but what part of made known the state of the negociation. He had only particular regiments had been eiktied out.
the number there employed was to be taken out of no wish that any thing that had not been made public I Mr. WHITBREAD-asked, when ?
,theas,for vommercial pstrposesi• •
British only I—leavlng to the Attcaus the use of
the 201,000 which they were then voting. Did the should be communicated to the House. He should ; !Elie CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER.— Americans to the Newfoundland fistitity ; but not to
gs The right tb the
Noble Lord think that it was never necessary to state have been content, as he had been formerly to have lln 17gt• cure their.fish on the shores of the British Coloniel •
, • . ..
the groued of a demand for a force, but that as many stated that he was opposed to designs of Conquest ; ! Colonel WOOD said, that the Hon.- Gontleman's without an equivalent —remarks as follows
cum were to be given as were asked for? . 4' •
but what was time inconvenience now to make known declaration, that it was contrary to law to keep the ir •• - ' l—
, hi Such
.are the eutlines, as we can collect the% by
The CIIINC:ELLOR, of the KICHEQUER s'd the
at , real state of the Negotiation? With such pre- militia embodied, must materially add to the dissa. a, sty perusal. What shall we say to them?' lii
• that the Rigel Hon. Gentleman would find in the tensions as had been attributed to us, we had nothing ' tisfaction exPressed• by the men. When the motion the first place, candour compels us to confess we dd
eases he hag referred to, statements delivered in at to look for but a continuance of war. He would ,of which an Hon. Member (Sir S. Romilly) had given not see in them Those insolent preteusiens Which •yes.
bne time respectiog the distribution of the forces it venture to predict, that •
we should never sign a peace • notice should be discussed, the law on the subject ter4y stared us in the faxe. Our iitformatien *as
borne former period, respecting which the House was while we persisted in the demands which had been would he fully ascertained. both imperfect and incorreet. Those more resembled
desirous of enquiring ; but prospective statements held forth, and if the war was carried on with the Mr. WHITBREAD thought it his dutrto state, the conduct of a horse-dealee, than the dignified pro.
bed never been nestle. But perhaps it would satisfy design of enforcing them,unwarranted byaw we should incur great ex. that thiS measure was wholly l
• • posals of one independent nation to another. These
the Right Hon. Gentleman to be reminded, that he pence, and fail in the end. Was there no incon- He had read the statute with the greatest attention, ;before us offer, if you please, a hird Sergi& ; terms
had stated the number of troops employed under the venience in such a state of things
. ) lt was not ex- and his opinion was, that the militia ought not to be
Convention was 75,000, end that 15,000 Hatioserians troardinary, when extravagant pretensions on oar . kept embodied. think, presume upon absoleite dishonour on our part.
certainly not to be accepted : but they do not, I
•
were in British pay on the Continent, forming part part were stated to have been conditions sine qua none I The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not entertain Let us candidly consider, in brief terms, their a
of that force. that he should desire to hear the fact denied or an.m l' the same opinion. He considered that the proceeding
lion Let. ua sr
etake t tnhoevri ill af
for
r ttbheey
first
stand. t
i(n .e Our.m Adm ini.sttrad.
can t. a c un Ia
obtainot nu ne
t a.
Mr. WII IT BREAD said, that the Chancellor of theisticated. As to the maintenance of the 75 000 ! was perfectly legal. The time would come, when the
Exchequer and the Noble Lord had puzzled them. troops on our part, and a greater force on the part' of law on this question would be discussed, • and he , with the certainty, that they nev'er
selves with finding reasons to avoid an answer, which the other great Powers, he thought the Treaty most should then be prepared to show, that his Majesty's '
Treaty while they insist on pretecting the stainsct
e
at last in a very sly way had been given. So it turn. improvident. The only danger apprehended could I Ministers were justified in the measures they had pur- of Great Britain on board our merebant vessels r and
ed out, that
.there were 60,000 British troops on the he from France, and if such apprehension were well ; sued. . .
Continent, nr that we intended to cheat the Allies by founded, it was most impolitic to have given her the Mr. WHITBREAD, said, that many ' lawyers, I venture to affirm, that are prepared to relic-
stipulating for a number which we had not main- possessions which the Allies had yielded to her, till whom he had consulted, agreed in his opinion; bat quish this pretension. theyTsqustin then, presents
tained ; a proceeding too disreputable and dishonest the affairs of Europe were settled at the General- ;this was not the first time that he and the Learned !no obstacle to a peace, although made a sine qua
[non; in English, an indispensable condition.
to warrant a supposition that it was adopted. Since Congress. Gentleman had differed on points of law.
then aim answer had been given to the vestion of his , Mr. STEPHEN still insisted that America had de- After some farther conversation between Mr. Pon- 1 "As to the article respeciing the Indians take it
,
Bieht Hon. Frieed, and since he intended to continue parted from the usual conduct of civilized govern- sonby, Lord Palinerston and Mr.
Tierney, the sum .
as you will, whether as respects territory, or as re-
r
'the enod old practice of putting questions, he should : ments, in publishing Papers before the negotiations was agreed to. . I "
spools the .Indians, or, lastly, as respects the two
again enquire at a time when the House was voting : was terminated. It was alma moved, that 85,0001. should be grant- i negotiating Powers themselves, it cannot be listened
'so lair a sum for military purposes, whether an I Mr. PONSONBY asked, of what use the nego- ed. for General Officers,. not holding the ranks of to fora single moment. First, as to territory :—As
es,im•ite of the expence of repairing the fortresses in ciations could he if we made demands which could Colonels.—Agreed to. Irespects Great Britain and the United States, it was
'the Nelserlends had been made, amounting to ten ; not be allowed. The President was compelled, Also, the sum of 200,0001. to defray the charges 1
: by the' reaty of' Peace settled and agreed hetoeen
"mil ions, and ohether his Majesty's Government had ; either at once to break off the negociation, or to of General, Staff, and Garrison Officers.—Agreed to. ' the parties, that the territory .in question belonged
not engaged to bear the whole, or a great part of communicate our conditions to the only authority The sum of 60,0001. for Supernumerary Officers. to us ; can they now, then, pretend to interineddle
'that expe• ce ? competent to grant them. .—Agreed to. i with it, under any pretence, 'or in any shape ? No.
The motion having been put, and no answer having Mr. STENIEN observed, that the President had. The sum of 106,0001. for the Expences of Officers ! —Secondly, as to the Indians ; I ask Great Britain,
if it has ever been heard of
that Indians are consider.
been returned to the last toestion, intimated no wish to ask any powers from Congress; in Public Departments in Great Britain.—Agreed to. i -
Mr. WHITIIIII3A D observed, that as no answer and if he recollected rightly, there was no sine qua ' The sum of 70,0001. for defraying the Fees for ed as independent nations? We know that France,
was 'given, an impression would go forth that this non as to cession and territory. Land Forces.—Agreed to. • when in possession of Canada, never treated them
as such ; and certain it is Great Britain never treated
country was to bear the expence which he had Mr. PONSONBY assured the Hon. Gentleman, • The sum of 218,0001. for the Half-pay of Reduced
mentioned, that there was such a condition. Officers of the Land Forces. . j them as such. Lastly, as to the two nations : I
, .
coniess myself utterly astonished that the British
Mr. BATH uRsT hoped that no such impression Mr.. BARING said, there was a stipulation as to General .GASCOIGNE said, that by an order of
Commissioners should propose a measure to our's,
who oserr would be produced from Ministers de- the territory inhabited by the Indians, which amount- the Treasury, the Paymaster was empowered to take a
dining to answer ail questions they might deem ed to no less than one-third of the American ter- Poundage of 6m1.1n the pound out orhampay
of
office". which, if it was accepted, it would be morally im.
e ,possible to observe, for the inevitable encroachment
imp:oiler. ritory. This was a condition which the Americans This he considered extremely hard, and worthy of
i of civilized people on savage nations, and the retreat
' Mr. ItAR iNG slid, that the impression that all the would never ag-e to, and which, if granted, would the consideration of the House. He wished to know
of the latter, can no more he prevented than cause
treops .n 'oe mainteitied under the Convention were. be injurious to ourselves. As to the power of the what became of this poundage; it certainty did not .
•and effect can be separated ; and moreover,• such a
an he employed in Belgium, was, he believed, error Ameriean President, he certainly could make no cos- go to Chelsea, and Ministers ought to state in what
stipulation would only be the cause of another war
woes, since the tro.spe empleved in Genoa, in the lion of lend without the authority of the States as manner it was appropriated. There was another .
in less then five years. It is) therefore, inadmitsi-
loeials Isles, were inclutled in the number. It was, i represented in Congress; and in what he had now matter that deserved attention—the distinction be-
ble on everyground.
•he cencolved, a etiniige assuirmelioim that the House `done, he had merely conformed to the usual practice tweet% the- English and Irish half-pay. He saw no I „ .
•
As to a revision of the, eastern boundary line;
wes to vote tar lare sum proposed o ithout anv infor- of his Government. _ reason for this differeece, and considered that it ought
no one has ever objected to running lines for the pur.
motion to what vtiriovso it was to be app!ted, a bile we.! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob. to he dose away. ' pose of settling disputed boundaries. Should we
'we, Y. :n a state of el ofnund peace with rfsprct to the • served, that the Gentlemen on the other side had tem! PA LM ERSTON said, that the poundage on
lose Moore Island by ascertaining the truth, w:. will
'P owers of Europ4 . Ever' if such was the old Par-, been arguing on a wrong assumption ; the negoci- the half-pay was not voted, and did not in fact exist.
ask Mr. Jefferson to explain why it was not obtain-
Ihnientory method of proceeding, he conceked'it to ations with America were net broken otf. ' It was merely nominal, and consequently could not
ed definiively by the ratification of Mr. King's Cone
be very iti,le,-ent. On the subject of Ath'rica he Mr. ROBINSON stated, that the American Com- Ibe appropriated by any persons under the Govern-
vention ? However, this is, not a sine qua 'son, and
said, that though be was aware of the tialicacy toi,:siotters had received instructions from their Go.. ment. With respect to the distinction between the
which it we- pr per to observe in aski.sg ro m lid 3d conditions, the
es. cerement, to treat on the Ist a 1
balf.pay of the two countries, his Majesty's Ministers consequently might be disposed of if nothing else
prevented.
Bons in that llonse, and though the neeociations latter of which related to a revision of the boundary' had not been inattentive to the subject; and measures
,4
Lastly--They do not pretend to interfere with
to fish Lastly-
were yet ;.ending, yet he could net but remark ou the line. Such an instruction implied a power in them ! would probably be adopted to assimilate the half-
! oar right on the Newfoundland banks. hut
extraordinary miosienagetsient of his Majesty's Mi- to make a treaty. [Mr. Potisonhy—Yes, but not.to I pay of Ireland to that of England. This sum was " they refuse to yield the privilege to cure our fish on
isisters [Bear, hear!], the extraordinary Prete 'slaw. conclude one.] Certainly not to conclude one, but then agreed to. ,
1 their own shores without an equivalent. This is
which had been set up on our part, arid which must to go through all preliminary steps. the Sums of 7,0001. for defraying military al. : •
Also,
. precisely the distinction formerly taken in this paper.
have originated in some person Witte ienorant of the Mr. PONSONBY.—Perhaps the instructions to lowances to reduced officers; amid 427,0001. for the ;
The first, we maintained was our strict right, and
state of public: feeling, in America. and e hich had pro. the Crenmissinners were merely not to treat on the in and out pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham 1
only would
so clearly so, that we not
duced the effect,—when a great pid of the best and cession of territory. Hospitals. Agreed to. deru it, but we also said we were quite certain Great
most independent inhabitants of Amelica hail differed Mr. ROSE, referring to a book in his hand, which The sum of 30,0001. for pensions to officers of the ..
D. .
rm would never ask it 9f us. Our letters of
from their Government as to the ground of the war • we understood him to say, was a copy of the Ameri- land and marine forces,
yesterday, speaking conjecturally, informed us she
with us,—•of joining all hearts and hands r,ainst can Constitution, said, that power was given to the On the sum of 100,0001. being proposed to .be
had ami d we o the demand insufferable.
us in every part of that country. The preten- President of making treaties without any reserve. granted for volunteer corps in Great Britain and
' pronouncedlt now appears she does not, amid she only expects
lions set up by the Minister had been so extraordi. Mr. BARING answered, that the Constitution Ireland. an equivalent for the use of her shoreseto which we
Mr. WHITBREAD could not understand on :
nary, and the prima facie evidence of mismanage. was framed with extreme caution, and the Congress , have no right, and which is so far from being essential
what ground the volunteers were to he kept on foot.
went such, that a motion ought to he made without reserved to itself all power which was not expressly ;to our full enjOyment of the fishery, that in point of
Was there any expectation of invasion ? Was there i
further information, since it was evidently impossi- given.fast, as I since ascertained, our fishermen did not
ble to attain a peace without, while these pretensions Mr. ROSE replied, that the Constitution would any; fear of internal commotion? England was per- .
avail themselveg. of the privilege when they had it
were persisted in. It had been said, that it was at. scareely reserve powers contradictory to those whichaccording to the of a
fectly quiet, and statement. gratuitously. r.
Right lion. Gent. (Mr. Peele), there were no appre- •
extraordinary proceeding that the American Exec - it granted. - " But the,article respecting "the Lales is surely
ticellOol(1 hate laid before Congress the Paper, relativ The resolution wee then agreed to. hensions of disturbance in 'relate.).
not to be admitted.. No : not as it stands. But ob.
to the Nitgociatites, while that Negotiation was The next restitution was for 3,522,0001. for the Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that no satisfactory
serve 9 i t is not proposed to us as what mast indis.
. ••
pending. • But if in our own cast', in a Negotiation service of the troops at home and abroad.—Agreed reason could be given for maintaining this species
of
nensably be granted ; if it were, I should, say the
force either in England or Ireland. On the con- .
carried on on the other side of the Atlantic, a de- to. Lakes or no peace; that is, an equal particiimation of
maw: was set op of a pioce of tho county of Corn- The third resolution was for 10,9001. for recruit.in tie to the üblic since ever
trary, it was anl i y .
_P 1 from the Lakes. It is merely a proposal, an extraordinary
Nail, it weeld be impossible that his Majesty would ins five troops of dragoons and 13 companies of i pershon in a cave ry corps claimed an exemption.
and inadmissible proposal, I admif ; but if the article
the horse-tax and also from serving its the militia.
slot lay the informatimi of such a demand before ford, iii Great Britain, for the service of the East,can be so modified as to be made perfectly recipro-
Ile could not consent to vote for this sum.
Pe; ':-or-ent. to Ohio the pretensioes or expectations futile Coinpany.cal, each to do or abstain from doing what the other
House
It was thee moved, that a sum not exceeding Lord PA LM ERSTON did not ask the to „,
ol' the ciseelv. Our Ministers at Gheist made it a noes or abetpins from doing, Ido not know hut it
ledge itself for the continuance of. the Volunteers ;
contlit:on of peace that America should make con- 245,0001• be granted to his Majesty for defraying the P . be might be well enough. Otherwise, however, it Must
but till it could be ascertained what force it would
cession' on evi ry parr of her frontO.,s. lie did not charges of the disembodied militia. be resisted at every hazard."
necessary for the county to keep up,
.there coald
intend to woke any motion, nor even to ask for any Me. WHITBREAD, after declaring, his convic-
be no objection to maintain the cavalry cerpse parti.
infermation, but he thought it of importance that it Lion that the continuance of any of the Militia em. 1
cularly in Ireland, since this measure rendered it un-
bodied, under the present circumstaeces, was di. ;
sieJultt. he made kn::wti whether the pretensimis set
up 'et cur I:at t were retsisted in. 'This eas a ques- rectly contrary to law, expressed a 'wish that the i necessary to retails a large portion of the militia em-
•
1:0,1 ~.!tich a ore an intimate connection with the Noble Lord would state something
more precise , bodied.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
statal,c, or troops it would be Isere ne. I
soul to main- upon this subject. Air explanation was certainly
des -
ta;;., for if :re pecsisted, it would be necessary to cessary to satisfy the mind of the country, an pr
... .
agreed, that there was no necessity for maintaining
; this species of force, and, on his suggestion, the
send out a force very early in the year. If, after the cially to allay the complaints of those among the _ .
Noble : Motton was withdrawn. •
Clelstrnas ilolides F, no information was given oil the .Militia who were still embodied. Did the No ,
Loud think it probable that the whole of the militia ' • The sums of 150,0001. for the expences of Local
Stl).l.'-t be ',llotilt: deem it necessary to bring furoard237,oool.for the services
' 'Great ft * • •
Militia in wain ,
would be disembodied by Christmas, or at what
some motion.of Foreign Corps in' Great Britain and Ireland ;
; ? Sonsethin in the way of explanation was
Mr. STITHEN, in allusion to what had fallen time g
14 1
.for the Reiyal Militery College ;• 15,0001.
from a Right Honourable Geetletnan (Mr. Poisson- obviously due to those regiments, the officers and e 7 __..
D or the Military Asylum at Chelsea; 12,0001. fin.
bv.), said, that by the Americans Constitution the; men belonging to which must, feel themselves dim - 1
•the Ch 1 • . ap tuns of the Arm y ; 60,0001. for Medicines
pointed, amid especially those who, even upon the
President was not hound to lay pliers respecting a 1
i in theprospect of and Hospital Contingencies -,_ 25,0001. for allowances
Pending negociation before Congress, and therefore verge of their own counties,
to the. Children of deceised Officers; 100,0001. for
the stricture of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was being immediately disbanded, were ordered
.to eon-
the
Commissariat in Ireland; 200,0001. for the
while they saw that not only other
well founded. 'Du, papers respecting the reetitutiou tinue embodied,
disbanded,
Barrack Department in Ireland were then voted.
regiments of militia were
but that several
of American property in France and the Orders inThe sum of 7,5001. proposed for allowances to
of. the second battalions belonging to the regular _
Council were produced in consegevisee of a motion. Superannuated Officers iu Public Acfices was with-
led also.
and the vote of a mejority in Congress, on the army were disbanded .
drawn •
ground of undue partiality shown to the French Go. Mr. B. BATHURST observed, that the whole of -
The. whole of the Sums were ftir fialf,a/ear, from
the militia would be disembodied, as soon as the
veroment. the 25th Dec. 1814, to 24th tune,' 1815. ,
Mr. PONSONBY asserted that it was a principle safely of the' Coon
try would allow. If the service •
The Resolutions 'AA-then agreed to.—RepOrt
on it must ne-
in the American Constitution that no Treaty could required a portions to be kept , foot,
uponordered for t Ad' ed •
o-morrovr.— yourn . .
be concluded by the President without the concur- turally fall harder upon some that; it did .
but it was a hardship that could not at present ) -t ... - .
rents of the Semite, and that without the consent of others .
. It Is said that. Government is in treaty witk the
avoided
the Congress no territory could lie ceded, nh or any -e •
Mr WnITBREAD repeated Th
Ms opinion upon e Company of Goldsmiths fur ;#
~ space. of ground be.+
measures affecting the rights of American citizens •
that that opinion was sanctioned by tween Fleet-stceet and Ilolborn, for a New Post
taken. During the course of the negotiations, the law, observing,
..
untry— Office; and it must be altowed that o mole c‘liotl-
111 i 1 ibli commissioners if the papers published in some of the highest law authorities in the Co - •: •
$ la wyera indeed who were actually. ton- venient spot for At iiutpose tailiiiit 'W found etithin
America were had taken for granted that a by some 9 i
correct, din framing the militia law. Accordiog to the the City of Loudon.
coraitry supposed by the Americans to be American cerne

Accounts from Charleston, South Carolina, state,
that an United States gun-boat" and nine coasters,
which she was convoying, were captured on the fills
alt. between Savannah and Amelia Island, by ten
barges, manned by 216 picked seamen from the Bri-
tish frigate the Lacedemonian.
A Brussels article mentions the destruction of the
Theatre of Breda, by fire, on the Bth.
Advices have reached town from Valparaiso, to
the 25th of May last. At that period great doubts
were. entertained whether the Viceroy of Lima would
ratify the Treaty of Peace weed to between •the
Lima General and the people of Chili, in ♦irtue of
which the latter were to be allowed to exercise a free
trade with Great Britain Ind all, other Allies of
Spain, on condition of aekeowledeing FERDINAND
VII. It was understood that the Viceroy was not
aethorisedro accede to such terms. It had beerl
agreed, however, that, two Deputies from Chill
should be dispatched to the Cortes.
It is a fact not generally known, that the sheet
which received the head of Charles I. after his de-.
(capitation r
at Guildhall, is carefully preserved along
!with the eatitinanion plate in•the church of Ashburn-
' ham, in Sussex, the blood with which it has been
almost entirely catered, now appears nearly black.
!The watch of the unfortunate Monarch is also de.
!posited with the linen, the movements of which are
'still perfect. These relics came into, the possession
of an ancestor of the present Lord Ashb-- -
mediately after the death of the King.

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baruhaiol iru.
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