The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-05-22 00:00:00

TIM grATINMANi

wily a Council of Cotitrodl tb the exercise Of the pre: If he had dot eitert this AMIS.& it might hate been
rogative, but it was alwitya a counicil of advice to supposed by the House that all the lights of theology
the Sovereign en all cases, of great public importance: end sound reasoning were to be foetid in this paper.
if it, on some occasions, exercised its right of ad-ilt appeared to him, honever, of so different a cha-
lice, it might make it the less necessary to exercise , rider, that he really did not kdow how to give a
its power or controul.—[lfeor, hear !]=He could ! serious answer to the communication. The answer
not but think that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Ry.' he had given was by a notice, in which he mentioned
der) had made some whimsical distinctionein his at. 44 that he had looked at the statement, and, as far as
gument upon the precedent of 1784; and .that this be could make it out, it appeared to him to, be of a
singular instance had been selected by him with peen: , controversial nature." [d general laugh.] Ile
liarinfelicity. Hesaid,thatin 1784, pariiamentdid not i really did not know what other answer to give. No
tenture to take such an audacious step as to address two Members of the Cabinet saw the question in the
ja: Majesty respecting the formation of a new Mimi-( same light, and if he were to have added one to this
i,;,tration. What was it they did ? Why, accord. ; Aortas siccue of dissent, there would, -as Mr. Burke
1„.4 to his Right Honourable Friend, they kept : once expressed it, be a most beautifel variety of
aithiu the bounds of the Constitution ; they did not ' opinions in the Cabinet. If he were, thenl to ex-
address about the new Administration, but they ad- i ercise his reason, and ask to which 'shade of opinion
dressed his Majesty to preserve their own existence, i the blue, the red, or the yellow—fa lassghl—the
and not to dissolve them. [A laugh.] Now if the : fair influence and authority of the Goverment in
case had been changed, and they hail happened to that House was to be given, be could not avoid con-
have addressed about the Administration that was eluding, that it would be to the opinion of him to
forming, and it was now proposed to address against whom the Crown had confided the direction of the
a dissolution, the very same argument might be used, Government. He therefore conceived, that lie could
only changing the terms. It would then have been not with honour join a Cabinet, where he could have
said. that no Parliament had ventured to go thelength only a barren vote upon a subject which lie cott-
er aadressiog the Sovereign against the exercise of coked of the greatest importance. Ile, however,
his prerogatise is the dissolution of Parliament ; perfectly coincided in what had been said.of the spirit
but that they only adtlressxl him about the forma- in which the proposal had been made; and he was
tion of an A:lminist:ation. The proposition which ready to pronounce any panegyrick on the manner
,rats now submitted to the House was, therefore,
„in which it was made,which was well suited to the long
only deemed extravagant, because, in 1781, it was and uttinterruped friendship and affection which he
upan the exercise of another and fully as important felt for that N able Lord. lie knew. that his Noble
a prerogative, that the House then thought proper ,' Friend os%ght most conscientiously differ in opinion
to address his Majesty. He must de.lare, that he ' with him upon this subject. The difference? how-
was as much taken by surprise in the present motion ever, now, was not about instantly' conceding the
as the House was. lie certainly never did expect , Catholic claims (which was a thing he never pro-
such a proposition from the Hon. Gentleman who , posed), but whether those claims ought not to be
brought it forward ; and if he had supposed that there ! taken into the most serious consideration of the Go.
was one mall in the House (of his independent situa- ' vernment, with the view of conceding all that could
tion) more thin' another likoly to join with the No. Ibe conceded with safety to the Constitution. An
Ve Lord (Lord Castlereagh) against himself, in any t Zion. Gent. had said, that they should leave it to
question that should be brought on in that House, he I time to show whether the persons selected for•the
did suppose that the Hon. Mover would be that man.' new Government would or would net be able to
Ile was, however, as much surprised at the course -farm an efficient Administration. The lion. Gen-
which had been pursued to get rid of this .Motion, ! tleman, however, could not be surprised, if a per-
by moving, that the other Orders of the Day' sou, called upon as he had been to be an actor in the
should be read. So that it appeared, that this an: I scene; sboidd first consider, whether or not he could
heard-of motion,—this direct attack open the best :be serviceable to his country, by joining such 1
Ad-
prerogatives of the Crown,—this inversion of tne ministration. He must be allowed also to consider
constitutions': line of proceeding which threatened to ; whether, by so doing, be would not 'injure his repute-
Is rest the sceptre from the Sovereign, was to be met I tion, which was dearer to himself than it could be to
la. ids faithful Administration, not with a decided ; others. With the race of nizerm men, among whom
:eel indignant negative, but by reading the other or. i we now live, if any one was stripped of his repute.
tiers of the day.—[A laugh.]—This on-heard of mo.. lion and his character, he would be quite unable to
tine eas opposed by'a Government strong enough render any useful service to his country by accept.
Os it is conceived) to carry on the'Adruinistration of . ing office. He saw no sort of disposition in his Me-
ttle country in the most difficult times, by passing to jesty's Government ever to support the claims of the
the other orders of the day. The Hon. Gentleman Catholics. [Lord Castlereagh expressed dissent].
had said, that he required of the Cabinet to concede ' It he could suppose,' by this expression of dissent,
their plincinles to him upon the Catholic question.— ! that the shades of difference upon this question were
Ile did no such thing. He had merely enquired' at all amalgamated, aad that there was any chance of
what were the present opinions entertained in the : Government being favourable to the Catholic claims,
Cabinct upon that important %object I To that ques- !he would hail the announcement of such a disposition
tion he was answered by the Noble Lord (Lord Li- , with the sincerest pleasure.
verpool), with great candour and manliness, that his ! Lord CASTLEREAGH hoped that the House
owl. opinion remained the same; and that he was not' would clearly understand that he bad no wish to deny
aware of any change in the opinions of any of his , the undoubted right of Parliament to controul the
colleagues. He mast again remind the House, that it : exercise of the prerogative, or to give its advice to
was very unwillingly that be spoke of those matters, ' the Sovereign on all questions of public importance
bat when called upon, as he had been, he could not and urgency. Without denying the omnipotence of
avoid it. When he had heard the opinion of the ' Parliament, he thought that the grounds should be
head of Government so distinctly pronounced, was I well weighed, for coming to such.a resolution, ba-
it possible for -him to doubt of the practical effect of i fore they agreed to it. As to the Honourable Gen-
e.at opinion entertained by the bead of the Govern- 'Vann who moved the other Orders of the Day, it
waist ? His Right Honourable Friend' had said that appeared to him that the course he had taken was'
1
if he were to come into office, the motion of which not only constitutional but usual. The Members of '
imbed given notice would be unnecessary, as he '
the Administration had most sincerely exerted theme
would then have as opportunity of calling the atten- selves to obtain additional strength to the Govern-
tion of his Colleagues to the subject. lie certainly, . meat ; hut if the Gentlemen who were applied to
iii such case, might move it in the Cabinet and be !considered themselves not justified in lending their
beaten. He should, however, prefer moving it in I talents to the support of the Administration of the
this House, in order to shew the public that he had I country, on the principles which had hitherto been
dune every thing that was in his power to do, to for- i sanctioned by Parliament, no blame attached to them.
ward those principles which he- had publicly pro- IHe knew that his Royal Highness the Prince Regent
fcssed.—He never had maintained the opinion I had been most anxious, ever since the restrictions were
that concession, unqualified and precipitate, was ! taken off, to unite as many men of public talents as
the best course which could be taken on the still- : could begot together, to support that system of Admi-
jeet of the Catholic claims. His ltight lion. Friend : nistration whic hecouceived best for the country, and
.(Mr. Ryder) had, however, much misrepresented him which had hithertobeensanctionedbyParliamfat.There
when he spoke of opinions very recently taken up. i were certainly great difficulties in bringing public vneq
'The opinions that he then professed, were the samel to combine and co operate; but he would seriously
which he had professed ever since his Right Ho-! put it to Gentlemen, what. they thought the Members
timetable Friend bad known him. What he had of Admiuinistration ought to have done at the time
I formerly said on the subject was, that when it was the country, by a calamitous event, was deprived of
considered that the King was decidedly hostile I the services of Mr. Perceval ? Ought" they iroutedi.
to those claims, from conscientious scruples which ! ately to have abandoned their posts, and let the hand
were irremovable, he thought it better for the of ass assassin not only overturn the whole Adminis-
peace of the Sovereign, nnd .of the country, : tration, but that system of polity which Parliament
and better for the cause of the Catholics them- i for many years had thought the best for the public,
Wils, that the claims should not be urged at a time ; service? If they had done so, or given to the Prince.
lir;.ea it was isnpassible that they could be successful." Regent the pusillanimous advice of changing, on that
tile hail on this medusa only, wished the, question I account, the whole system of his policy, they would i
'formerly to be kept back, and had interposed his '• deserve to be considered the basest and most con-
4 eeble shield between it and the peeco of his Sove. I temptible of mortals. The Noble Lord hoped he
'reign. It was, however,' little too.'mucts to expect, I would not be found to trespass on the patience
'that whatever be would have yielded to the con. ; of the House, while he said a few words of him-
science of his Sovereign, he should yield also to the self, and of hit own personal conduct on this par-
convenience of blinisters.--[lleor, hear !] He titular occasion—a practice which he was very seldom
could not bring himself to the thought of planting :in the habit of indulging. The House were at per-
.a ith thorns the pillow of his aged and venerable So- ! feet liberty to deny him every portion of their poli-
vereign ; and he valued his peace as much as the peace tical protection and confidence, if he did not declare
of the Empire. lip however, never had treated the that throughout the whole of the neg:.ciation, he was
scruples of the Weil Honourable Gentleman (Per. , most anxious to rescue the Prince Regent from any
tern!) with the same respect. When he, therefore, ' situation of difficulty or embarrassment that might
saw the Noble Lord (Liverpool) whose opinions on grow oat of him personally, or the place in Admi-
this subject approached the nearest to those of that nistration which he held. He had come iuto the Go-
Right Honourable Gentleman, now placed at the 1 vernment, not to indulge the feelings of ambition, but
head of the councils of the country, bow wash pos. I to render it all that service which he was capable of
'aiille for him not to fear that there would be no con- ' affording on the secession of one of its principal Mem-
tending in the Cabinet on this quiestion, against his I. hers. At the same time, he was anxious to relieve the
predominant influence? He had no other objection 1 Adidi.:istration of his Royal Highness from any di&
either from rivalry, or any other motive, to refuse l acuities which might be supposed to arise from any
acting with or under the Noble Lord ; but he felt personal pretensions of his own, and to throw no ob-
that from his situation he must have & most decided stacle iii the way of their receiving the aid of more
Influence in the decision of the question. His lion. ! available services than his own. He therefore did feet
Friend had asked him •whether he had seen a state-' it his duty to tender his resignation to the Prince
Silent of the Members of the Caitinet on this particular i Regent, resolving at the same time not to shrink
point, and the limitations of the sense in which they : from this arduous duty of standing by the Sovereign,
were now hostiletothe Catholic Claims. Being so called ' if under all the circumstances his Royal Highness did
upon he must say that he had seen that paper; and, as not find himself enabled to form a preferable arrange.
tit; Society of Jesuits did not now exist. they must be mesh. He did wish his Royal Highness to be enabled
exonerated from the charge of having drawn it up; to extend and strengthen the menus of conducting his
[a laugh] —but this statement explained nothing to Administration, particularly in the 'rouse of Com-
him but that all the Memliers ofAhe Cabinet widely mons. If the offer'of resignation was not accepted,
dilfered its their opinions on the settled. [A laugh.] this at least he could say, that it was tendered with an

Mulling wish that it might be received. As to what
passed lath/Course of the recent negociations, he
would say little, particularly as he was no party..
whatever tb them. The documents, hownie,r, had
appeared In a Morning Paper of this day 4 though he
was really at a loss to Understand hew tht3y Hid
so speedily got there ; and therefore there was no
occasion for any great delicacy in noticing the* ers- .
tents. Yesterday mdrning was the first time he had
ever seen there documents; and he was free to ad-
mit, that If the Noble Lord and the Right Hon; Gen? :
tleman thought they could not meet that cordiality
1 in the Cabinet which could be effective for the pub‘'
tic service, then no duty remained for them but that
of declining the offers which were held out. From
the whole of the papers he was led to conclude, that
the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, would I
not form a part of any Administration that would
not take the Catholic question into consideration.—'
But really he thought it due to the house to know, l
from tMt Right Hon. Gentleman, what his specula- I
tions were en that subject, and what were his practi- I
cal newt 14 to the mode of its accomplishment. 141
could understand the manly policy of some Gentle-
men on lite ether side of the House, who declared
that the claim of the Catholics was a claim of right ;
they'might with justice insist on the formation of a i
Ministry who were favourable to unconditional con- •
cessions: but when the Right Honourable Gentle-
man really could not state what he meant by the
i word consideration, was he to turn his back taii all
the other great principles of policy, in which
he cOncirred with the Members of .the esistiwg Ad-
ministration ? The Right lion. Gent, would do
I great justice to his own character, if lie came for-
( ward and stated candidly his views on the object of
I the Catholic claims; and if these views met the con-
sent of the Catholic body, and Could be acted upon
without repugnance on the part of the Protestant
community, he (Lord C.) declared, that he wad
ready to support •.im. Indeed, he would assert, that
he had ever been a most sincere friend to the measure
of concessions to the Catholics; but he never had
made that question a political engine, pr an instrit.
' went either for supporting or overturning any Admi-
nistration. Whenever any Gentleman brought for-
ward a measure on that subject, such as was under.
stoodto he entertained, at the time of the Union,
by Mr. Pitt, Lord Grenville, and others, lie was
prepared to support that measure ; but he never would
use it as a stalking horse to disturb or emlyart ass the
1 operations of the Government at a period when ob-
jects of so much greater magnitude omupiecl the at-
tention of the country. Ile would still assert, as
he had always done, that no particular pledge was
given to the Catholics at the period of the U uion.
The Catholics certainly lent their support to that
! measure which he considered as of vital importance,
from an understanding that something would be done
! for them ; bathe would again repeat, that no pledges
whatever were given by Government as to the particu-
lar mode in which that object was to be accomplished.
[hear! from Sir J. Newport.] There was one point,
however, on which at the period of the Unian, he was
authorised to give an opinion to the Catholicbody, and
that was to make such provision for the Catholic
• Clergy, as would remove them from the state of de-
gradation and poverty in which they were placed.,
Before he joined Lord Sidmouth's Administration,
lie received an assurance, that this measure should
be recommended to his Majesty ; but it never was
carried into effect, because in the mean time the Ca-
tholic Clergy had changed their opinion of it, under
the idea that it might prove injurious to their own
interests. The Catholics themselves ought to come
• forward and declare what precise measures they
wanted. He saw, no occasion for laying upon
Government the task of considering their claims,
. but rather that the whole attention of Administra-
tion should be bent to the great difficulties in which
the country was placed, and above all, to the con-
ducting of the war in the Peninsula on the largest
• possible scale, particularly when the affairs of Eu-
rope were now at a most important and interesting
. crisis. He had heard something of the necessity of
icarrying on the war in the Peninsula on a more ex-
tensivescale; but he should be glad to know how
I that could be done. The scale of warfare was the
largest, the most expensive, and the most disin-
-1 terested, at least as far as Spain and Portugal were
• concerned, of any in which the country had ever
I been engaged. Now could it be said to be neglected,
when this country was actually expending at the rate
of twenty millions a year in the great cause of the
Peninsula ? In this sum were of course included the
supplies and subsidies afforded to our Allies, as well
as the pay and maintenance of our own armies.—
Under these circumstances, to say that there was any
abandonment 01 the cause of the Peniniula was an
'imputation on the Government which could not be
justified to the country. The Noble Lord concluded,
with deprecating the stamping of astigtpa man Act.:
ministration, the. whole of which was not yet befoie
the House ; and contended that nothing' was more
impolitic than to throw discredit on a Government,
when there was little prospect of substituting abet-
ter in its room.

The House then
For Mi. Wortley'S natioi 174
Akiinst It • 1711

Majority against Ministers.. 4
strangers were excluded front the Gallery,
RP understood Mr. Sz woRTLEy moved tin t Ind
Address should be cerried up to the Pelee Regent
by such Members of the House as wore of his M. 14
jesty's Privy Council.
This motion was opposed by fiord CAellat;
of whom coin-
Ibill;neel 4:ith;i'tleed(p ;rhea:Lelia: ttarittodafrntit.sauttlh‘ly.ep:o lastr tPftßnrhgthoKllis_itilAeisi:Gitoembetnosin:_t'thil
emen, mho irer9
The 110 se the.
divided on Mr. Wortley's Motion-
-174
AF;iftliniltatiottity-- - 178
$
h7ritnginuaetilliftesheteod - -4
copritisl
stov
tuegsic'tirhio:(smi
lett
ihowe,
[While this divisidu uas goieg on; M:: Ponscinhe
°ll.);°Mitii'llaistieurst,heitit
tfreloosrenoitil
ihteireoentshs
aoartilytgolgtaheat htheyerivi tee:ens
bimgelo:r rasoht %lose m
essdaasstifteerielye
u;ldanadttiet
as possible.]
On being readmitted td the Gallery, we found •
Mr. S. WORTLEY on his legs, expressing in it
f.
rity
amdenirp)eb.r_oyt: rsetere. itfnt
onmtmc
aeasj3ikodi conceived
frogs
nertce.,:hiveeri
Members,
oe e
finesse, t) 110
sot:. r
el
oedi
t if,
sentte.oohailittic.:
itolanefstilb
be,—carried
,c,,cdr—hieeraehrdwitiagmrel
very animated manner, hiss uttee surprise, that a mo.
high importance
esitetit
—Hear, Acarl—He iispel, however, the house
would not suffer themselves to be left in such a pp-
' dicament, but would take such measures as should be
fully adequate to carry the Resolution they had posed
into complete etrect.---tHear,hearfl
Mr. WHITBREAIe said, he would pat the mate
ter iato the shape of a motion. They had beets that
night debating on the commencement of an Med-
i
nistration that was not yet formed. A motion of this
highest importance had been brought b More the
j House, and carried against Ministers by a majority
of four. After this, an Hon. Friend of his under
the Gallery had moved that the Address to the Pi ince
Regent, which bad just been voted, should be car.
ried up by the whole House, which had afterwards
been withdrawn, and a motion made that the Ad-
! dress be presented by such Members as are of his
Majesty's Privy Council. This was opposed by a
Right lion. Gentleman opposite, lately at the head
of the Admiralty, who complained that the very
(small majority which had been obtained, was owing.
to eight Members being shut out on the division, who
mould have voted against it. Here, then, were eight
Members who had neglected their duty. [No, no !
from the Ministerial Bench.] I say (repeated Mr.
Whitbread)—Members who had neglected their duty
—for where can the duty of a Member of Pediment be
more imperiously called for than by his attendance in
this House on a question of such magnitude end im•
porta nee as the present. [Loud cheering. ,freer the
lOpposition Benches.]—He should be glad know how
far they were to go ?—Was it expected they should
go or send round to all those Members who did not
chuse to stay in the House, but retired to take their
tea or other refreshments in the adjoining coffee.
houses, to ask them which way they would be pleased
to give their votes ?—Or would any of the Comfier.
tional Members °nee House of Commons be Teemed
to inform the House, what, in such cases otyht to
be done ?—Would those Gentlemen who had the
Constitution for ever in their mouths, now stand fore
ward and say, that a Resolution, carried by a majo-
rity of the House, in which there were present
three hundred and fifty Members, should remain a
dead letter ? Would these Honourable Gentlemen,
who had such a high regard for the Constitution,
wish so deeply to degrade the House of Commons,
which formed so essential a part of it, in the opinion
of the people? The Right Hon. Gentleman, and
the Noble Lord near him, complained of the small
number of the majority, which was four. Ile (Mr.W.)
remembered a question in which he voted in that
House, when the numbers were equally divided, and
the Right Hon. Gentleman in tee Chair, by his single
vote, gave the majority; and on that occasion the
Address was carried up by the whole House. He
was sorry the motion to that purport had not, in the.
present case, been persisted in; if it had, the Noble
Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman would not have
been able to vote against a question they would other-
wise have been glad to adopt. There was, however,
evidently a piece of trickery and finesse in the pro-
ceeding ; and he would, therefore, beg leave to apply
to the superior wisdom and experience of the Speaker
to point out what would be the best motion to make,
to extricate the House from the unexampled and
disgraceful situation in which it was then placed.
The SPEAKER, said, he knew bet of two modes
by which the House had ordinarily procended—the
.one was, that the Address he presented by well Mem-
bers as are of the Privy Could!, the other by the
whole House—[.4 call from several qaa4ers—ls
there nu other—is there no other!]
Mr. W. WYNNE said, that in the case of ad.
dressing the Prince of Wales, to congratulate him on
his marriage, the Address had been carried up by a
lob certain number appointed by the House. He, there.
dwe fore, movedi that the prturnt Address be ptilletted
from by the Mover and Seconder thereof.
ed wit
The SPEAKER said, there had unquestionabfy
beau
been instances, where, in extraordinary cases, the
I one p
usual mode had net been adhered to. In the reign of
Queen Anne, when her Majesty was indisposed, a
great wa limited number had been appointed to present an Ad.
,rd's engit ( dress, but he thought it his duty to call the attention
the period eI of the House to consider, whether they would pro-
ceed to extraordinary means before having tried
those which were ordinary.
Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) said, he. would vote
Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that if the Rouse should
for the previous qtiestione were he assured that an
think
in proper to vote that he, in conjunction with the
Administration possessed of talents was forming; but I
Noble Litred who did him the honour to second his
not to consist of those men whose names he had seen
I Motion ehould present the Address, he should con-
in the newspapers. I sider it' s the proudest day of his life. • '
Mr. S- WORTLEY replied.—Since he had trseat I Lord CASTLEREAGH made some proposals
in that House, he did not recollect to have heard a across the table, in case Mr. Wynne would Withdraw
speech containing so many unconstitutioual assertions his motion, but the purport of what he said, as well
as that of the Member for Yorkshire. He conceived las the answer given, was altogether inaudible. I)
that it was quite practical, with very little sacrifice of seemed, however, they. did not agree, for
public opinions, to form an efficient administration. I The SPEAKERput the question, that the Address
He by no means concurred with the Noble Lord, be presented by Mr. S. Wortley the Mover, and Lore
when he said, that every thing which could be dose, i
, Milton, the Seconder.
had been done for so desirable a purpose. • Thc Iffotion was agreed to, and the nouroadjourawl.

Mr. CANNING explained. The Noble Lord had
put to him the question, wh, he had dwelt so much
on the point on which he differed from Ministers,
and not on those on which he agreed with them.—
The simple and obvious reason was, because he felt
himself called upon to answer to the one point, and
not at all to the other.

Sir J, NEWPORT enlarged with great warmth on
the non-fulfilment of the Noble Lord's engagements
with the Catholics of Ireland at the period of the
Union.