The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-07-18 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

.
J. Mackintosh), who was not leas admired for his fple* got out of the kosaa,—(Haar,)—Ho weld do his ditty
did talents than be was respected foe lilt enderstion is iiy voting again* the Resistless. solve amended hy
politics and the amenity of his masers is pleat* lib. sense moderato and simple words, asoveying, though
Wises this peat authority was backed valet hiss, his Sot harshly, Its reprimand. If they did pie eat Rosa
I
Levee' I' mod felt convinced that the whole counter halos, it weld be a precedest is favour of all public
weld condemn him, 'ekes be Immediately resisted the delinquents, sad she timelier valet all Oldie louiry
attack. That Hoo. sod Learned Member bad encased —(Hear.)—lf they would pass it, it would undoubtedly
his Leered Friend of "a furious seal is the cause hi preset all Members from bringing many grievance be-
injestice and oppresses." It bad ben truly said that, 'seethe*. He was certain, if any penes of ezperience
with regard to this subject, his Learned Fried was yet should advise say young seas spec the ealaleet, it would
ape his trial; and this was an ailuitional reason for the be to recommend him sever to meddle with people who
house to treat hint in the present case with lenity. It were under the pewees of people la power; for be
had been said that motives mast not be imputed to Men- might see that the house would net stand by him, even
hers; but had not motives been imputed to his Learned though he was a Member—(Hear, bear.)—He would
Friend under which it would be disgraceful for him to waive all private feelings, and steely go with that Bpi-
live ? It might also be observed that his Learned Friend tit o hid, he conceived doe to the dignity of the hese.
had been bruughtto London at egret inconvenience, at It was a declared breach of privilege, which the house
considerable loss as regarded his professional pursuits, mast notice if they desired Member, to be protected froth
and at an expense which, to a professional lawyer, was violence out of doors. He did not wish any thing vindic.
Ho trifling consideration. If one Member of that bonne tire *guise Mr. Hope, but he considered that the lapse
Implied motives to another, he would only be called to was bound to reprimand any person who committed a
utter ; anti he therefore trusted, that the merely repelling a breach of its privileges.
of motives, charged without foundation, would not be vi• Mr. W. W. WYNN said the he must confess that
sited too . lv. The house world not forget that there was a clear and salistatitial breach of privilege
this breach of privilege had been founded npnn another committed, and one which directly affected the freedom
breach of privilege, to which his Learned Friend was no of speech—not only by oomutent upon what had been
party. He alluded to the publication of the debates of said there. but by impaling unworthy motives to an
that house, thuni,b he did not say that this was a breach Honourable Member. If such a license were permitted,
of privilege at which the house ought not to connive.— it wotilJ foree Members to descend into an arena bf pub-
Ile ought to observe that the contracted circle of society, lie controversy.—(Hear.)—He was aware that the ;rob-
in which his Learned Friend moved, had been poisoned lication of debates was tolerated, thong!' not legal, as
by these imputation. on leis character, which, had It not that publication in itself was a breach of privilege. No
been fur his vindication, would have destroyed hr. happi- Member timid he called upon to art right any mistake
nes, his fortune, his fame, and every thing which could which appeared io the report of that speech. •It was to
be dear to a young man of honour and talent. Indeed him extraordinary that reports of the debates wee given
party spirit at Edinburgh ran so very high, that his with es, much accuracy, considering the great haste with
Learned Friend could not bare lived had be not repelled which they must he taken, and the few hone they were
the imputations on his character, got up in. But tboaEh he admitted their general Adelity
Mr. ABERCROM BY assured the house, that he did they all knew that there was occasionally great wimp-
not rise to offer an opinion on the prose* question. prehensiune, and, in some cases, the very opposite of
Ile merely wished to states few facts to the house; but what was spoken set down. 'No bleuebar should be,
he could nut do so, without expressing his regret that he therefore, held accountable for any such reports. If
should bare bee the Clulle of the time of the house Irving their rights were to be called into question, they could
thus taken op to the delay of public-business.--(Meer, not go on with the business of the great inquest of
hear, hear!)—He had read Mr. Hope's pamphlet, lie the nation. Under all the circumstances, he was in-
knew not what bad been its effect upon the world; but, dined to think that a positive and substantial breach
as it was only in that hese that he held himself account- of privilege was committed. When he (Mr. Sr.) moil-
able for his conduct or his language within it, be biel dared at the same time all that Mr. Hope bad stated,
never authorised any one to answer or comment upon it. he thought that, though his conduct might not be jos-
He had now to repeat to the house, to the best of his re- tified, it could be extenuated ; and he was willing to ad-
cellection. what he bad said with respect to the plead- mit that it had received all the extenuation the case was
logs, signed by Mr. Hope and the other Counsel, in the capable of. With the indulgence ever due to the fail-
course of Mr. Stuart's action. He reed the plea, and the ings of human nature, they could not wonder at that
nausea of the Counsel subscribing it, and added, " I don't Gentleman's irritation. Mr. Hope's conduct should not
know how far these Gentlemen are responsible for this he allowed to pass by without the notice of the house,
paper. That is a matter of indifference. as far as regards but it should not be said that the, acted with partiality.
my argument. It is as Advocates Depute that 1 speak —(Hear.) There were similar eases by which the house
of them." At that time be certainly was not aware of might govern itself, and be was convinced whatever de-
the practice at the Scotch bar of Gentlemen signing the vision they Caine to. would be, under all the circa's=
pleadings of each other. The fact was that the paper had stances, most prudent and expedient.
been read to him by an individual some weeks before he Mr. CANNING said that he would judge of Mr.
made his motion; his attention was then drawn to the Hope's conduct in the difficult circumstances in which
substance of it rather than to the tootle of the signatures. he was placed, by the house declaring his conduct a
lie denied that it was any part of his argument to slew breach of privilege, by considering fairly if that Gentle-
that Mr. Hope was Counsel in Borthwick's case. His man had done any thing with an intention of violating
charge was that the object of the proceedings in that the privileges of that Hon. Honse ; or whether be bad
case was to prejudice Mr. Stuart on his approaching only performed a duty to himself by repelling what be
trial. His motion was made on the 25th of June, and thought an unfounded slander, and statements which af-
on the 211th, he was is possession Odle Report of Mr.S.'s fectcd hie honour. The question had been stated by
trial. '!'his was a material circumstance to chew what some Hon. Gent. as if it was only between the house and
must have been the course of his argument when he some offender out of doors. Undoubtedly it was true,
made the motion. lie would now state that Who had ever that great mischief would arise, if people out of doors ,
the misfortune in the course of his Parlianientaryduty to thought themselves entitled to call the Members to ae-
hurt the feelings of another in consequence of his stating count for reports of their speeches delivered in Paella-
any thing respecting which he had been misinformed, ment. But it seemed to be forgotten that there was a
be would never have hesitated, if an application were thirst party is the transaction—the reporting press,
made to him, in a proper manner, to bow to correction which was to a certain extent dependent on any inquiry
and to give the individual the benefit of every explana• on the present subject. With the press he would not lo-
tion within his power. lie assured the house that he heal teeter', as he considered that it was so ingrafted in all
acted in this matter from a desire to uphold Isis indivi- ibis practice of the constitution of the house, that it would
dual character, consistently with his duties as a Member be impossible, were it even wise, to attempt to pat it
of that house. He begged also to declare that if celled down. Before they made up their minds to censure an
upon to remedy any case of injustice originating wit ardent young man, they should consider the situation in
himself, in a fair, candid, and intelligible manner, he which Mr. Hope was placed; in a distant part of the
should with the same readiness apply himself to do so, as country, in a small circle, who were either his friends or
he believed every Member in that house would be die- decidtal opponents, and could he in such a situation pass
posed to do.—(Cheering.) over such imputations as those which were thrown out
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said that, with- against him? With respect to the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Aber-
out comprouliaing the privileges of the house, it was cromby) for whose charactor both io and oat of the
easy to see that this was a case, the justice of which house be had the highest respect, he had relieved his
would be satisfied by a trilling share of punishment.— (Mr. C.'s) mind, by the explanation of one part of his
The house having decreed its breach of its privileges, declaration respecting the practice of the Scottish Bar
it was unnecessary to agitate that question again, and affixing their signatures to documents, and of which be
the only consideration was, whether or not it was an and many members of the house were ig 5. When
aggravated case. That this house had not latterly been he heard that Mr. Hope and Mr. hi• Neill subscribed to a
in the habit of enforcing its privileges with the same plea which was soobjectionable, he could most confident.
rigour as foruierly, was certainly true, fur the publica- Iy say that when he heard that statement, be considered
tion of its debates' was an open violation of these pri. that a case was made out which brought Mr. Hope's re-
vilegea. It was nee sssss y however that this publication pantion into jeopardy. He had applied to his Noble
should he overlooked, for the synnethy induced by it Friend (Lord Binning) for an explanation, and
between the Representatives and the people out of doors, with the hope that it would turn out as it had done, that
had been so much enhanced, that to break it off at this the signature to the plea was a technical practiee, af-
time might be attended with great inconvenience. This fixed without even sanctioning thedocumeats orproving
was a breach of privilege then, which should be tole- for its accuracy. The mistake not only pervaded that
rated unless it produced some absolute mischief. The house, hot it was circulated for 10,000 miles through
next question was, whether the breach of privilege now the wide expanse of England and of Scotland. From it
charged was of the same description? In his opinion was Mr. Hope's character stigmatized; and he world
it was. That it was as offence against the privileges of ask, was ft in human nature for any young man to sit
the house no one could doubt ; but the Noble Lord stated down quietly under an imputation affecting his repute-
his opinion, that the explanation given by the witness tion and honour? The lion. Gentleman (Mr. Aber-
and his manner generally at the bar, were in a great cromby) had said, that if he had been applied to in any
measure an expiation of his fault. He was therefore of reasonable manner, he would have given full explans-
opinion that Mr. Hope ought to be dismissed with an lion. If the whole matter was to be gone over again,
admooitien• perhaps it would be better that such an application had
Mr. TI ERNEY differed Erato the Noble Lord. If the been made. Hilt the house must see that the course
witness was butadmonisbed, it would be in fact a triumph was open to difficulties. Mr. hope might have applied
for him, a consequence which lie was sure ev'n the Noble to a Member who would be so tenacious 'Allis privileges
Lord did not wish for. Mr. Hope might have made his as not to give any explanation. It might be said that
explanation more satisfactory. It was unfair to liken there was another mode which might have been adopt-
this case to a publication of their debates in the news- ed ; he might have addressed a letter to the editor of 1
papers, for that was a great benefit to the country. He the paper in which the report had appeared. He might
was sure no man who wished well to the interests of the have stone so certainly; but the only difference between
State would wish to see the publication of these that mode and the mode which lie adopted was, that he
debates pot • stop to.—(Hear, hear !)—tiorl forbid had done that directly which he 'night have done circuit.
that any thing that he could Nay in that bowie would ously. Ile (Mr. C.) could not understand, from the
sanction any Member in taking away the character of a speech of Sir. Hope, any aggravation of Isis offence to-
person out of it ! But all he asked was, that a Member wards the house. He very candidly expressed his re-
of Parliament should he protected fir any stateni-its Bret at being subject to their disapprobation. He
which, his duty required him to make. There were other professed his respect for the house, and followed op that
modes which a person out of doors might adopt. lie by saying, that he acted on principles which they re-
might present a petition to the house, complaining that gartled with veneration and esteem. lie stated, with
his character was attacked in it, and retpiesting their at- a frankness most creditable to him, that seeing all the
tention and their protection. They were placed in a dangers of the course before him, he felt it due to
strange situation ; for if they gratt:e.l an inquiry, an his character and to his professional honour to act
Hon. Member complained that the ver:.• 1,1.1,1117 we, a us he had done. He was bound not to be stopped
libel upon Win. It was said that the •-•••• ..: Borthwick by the offence, or the fear of the consequences which
was dependent at prevent, and that they ought tc wait awai: .1 its eominittal.—(Hear, hear.) Tile titivation
for its termination ; but he did not think that the pre, then which they would have to decide upon was, not if
readings of the boost• could elect it. Perhaps it may !hey sh roll neat him as ono %Om had violated the sanc-
tion get on at all, or if slmi:l at some ,ime hence, bilolll.l Lily of their privileges, hat as one who felt strongly in
they allow, all tat time, .11entliers of she house to be a cause where his character and professional honour
branded in newspapers, or be treated iti ilmm a it; %sere most une.pii vocallv attacked. He told them
odium? What he objected to was, that noshing fur• frankly, that however highly he venerated their CellSli•
ther hail been done then demanding en explanation, lotion, he felt that he was called upon to risk every thing
and that the person at the bar had r-4-retted .his in- in vindication of his reputation. He (Mr. C.) saw no-
temperate Expression. But the house should not pass thing in all that to give offettre to the house.—(Hear,,
the mat,or by so easily. If it stopple! there it would hear.) lie might have added to the present trilling and
he a triumph to Mr. (lope.—(Cries of ts hear, hear.' ) technical crime, that of attempting to deceive them.—
lie would state how easy it was to remedy it, y insisting Ile had trusted to the house with manliness and candour.
in the Resolution before them, that the House should that they would not punish him for preferring the risk
reprimand Mr. Hope fur toe breach of privilege. Ile of th.iir displeasure to the certain loss of character.—
would not propose an amendment, as he wall not certain (Hear, hear.) With the expectation that the house
how it would he received. Hemight calculate upon the would nut send "Ir. Hope hack again to Scotland among
sentiments of the house from the shouts of triumph with Ilia friends with disgrace, he would leave the question in
widch :ilr. Hope's speech was received even before he their hands.—((lear, hear.)

Mr. ABIERCROMBY explained. He had said, With
referees* re itigestitiva ef Hope eta *Neal; that tbd
ass ha had eaute et that paper was array is show that
as coating boa thli Debi Advocate's it forced
Mr. Stout epee th• coarse of preoWleg ha had
adopted.
Mr. CANNiNIi bad 'Watered tha Hoietirable and
Learnad lieetimea as intending to rep/emit that Mr:
was as mach emaleted with the ...maw se lir:
Mal.

Lord A. HAMILTON *ought the Resoludos at pre-
sto; proposed, was iswoosistent with what was due s.l
Paella Meat and tb his Hon. and l". rued Friend. He
could not &cellist for the bhinge apparent in the teei-
ng* of the hoes* froth iyitipathy fur his Husourabli
sad Learned Friend; to exclusive sympathy for Met
Hope. He thought the proposition of his Right Hoe.
Friend, (Mr. Tierney) ought to be complied with. Ai
it at present stood it would be a perfect Nullity, sad he
could hot concur in it.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH did sot rite to ester into the
' merits of this question, nor for opposing any measure of
lenity the House might be disposed to visit this ease
with, but merely to answer the rourteous sad friendly
appeal to himself of the Noble Lard opposite. He ads
mitted that be was Ignorant of the practice of the Scot-
tish Bar already alluded to; bus, at the same time he
concurred with his Hon. and Learned Pulped (Mr. Aber-
eromby) as to the use which he had made of that part
of the case.—(Cries of " Question.'
Mr. BROUtiHAM wished to know whether it was
the intention of the Honourable and Learned Ovule-
man opposite to acceded to the joint suggestion of the
Right Hon. President of the Board of Controul, and hie
Right Honorable Friend, the Member for Knaresbo•
rough.

Dlr. COURTENAY wee conviaced that Mr. Hope
bad most substantially and clearly said, that lie regretted
the elolation of the privileges of that hour, and if it
wit the general feeling of the boast, be bad no &dec.
tion to insert that point in the way that had been nip
grated.
Mr. BROUGHAM trusted the important words " un-
der all the circumstances of the cue," would not be
omitted. If they were, he could net tote for It con-
sistently with the votes he had formerly given, in cases
of persons whose political opinions did not happen to
coincide with those of the majority of that house, hut
unprotected Printers and Reporters. It was the circum-
stances of the ease be particularly looked to—en ill..
quiry being now pending; Mr. Hope's conduct, and
also the state of his own feelings, as pleaded at the Bar.
Were this part left out, be was sure the justice of the
house would never again allow it to commit a Printer;
who should express leis regret before them.
Mr. COURTENAY thought these words a most im-
portant ingredient of the Rosolution, and had not the
slightest intention of leaving them out. The, Hon.
Member then proceeded to withdraw his former Resolu-
tion, substituting another with the addition of these
words, after the word bar—" and your expressions of
regret for the violation of its privileges."
This Resolatioo was then put, and from the dissent
expressed, the Gallery was ordered to be cleared for a
division. It was, however, agreed to without a division.
Mr. Hope being then brought to the bar by the Ser.
grant at Arms,
The SPEAKER aid—Mr. Hope, I am directed td
communicate to you the resolution which has been
adopted by the house. Yan. confessing yourself to be
the author of a letter in which imputations were cast
epos the conduct of a Member of this House, have been
adjudged guilty of a violation of its privileges ; and I
am therefot e directed to inform you that this house, un-
der the circumstance of the case, and in consideration of
the explanation given by you at the bar, and your ex-
pression of regret, does not feel itself called upon to take
eoceodings further on the case.
Mr. Hope was then ordered to withdraw.
On his withdrawing from the Bar'
Mr. COURTESAY moved that Mr. Menzies be cal.
led in.

Upon his appearing at the Bar ;
The SPEAKER informed him of the course the house
had taken with regard to him, in consequence of a com-
plaint made on the 9th July of the letter signed
William Manias, which appeared in the Courier news-
paper.
The letter having been handed to Mr. Menzies and
avowed to be his production, he was informed by the
S that that was his opportunity fur saying any
thing in his defence.
Mr. Menzies spoke in a low tone, added to the noise
in the gallery, that we heard him but very indistinctly.
He commenced, as well as we could catch, by professing
the most profound respect for the Hon. Hoes., and trust-
ing that the motives by which he was actuated io writing
the letter which incurred the displeasure of the House,
would induce its leniency. He observed in the Morning
Chroniek a report of a speech, purporting to have been
delivered by Mr. Abercromby in the House of Commons,
and which was afterwards copied into the Courier, in
which a severe attack was contained upon his conduct.
He deemed it to be due to Mr. Abercromby, as well as
to himself, to acquaint him, the moment he saw the
speech, with the circumstance, with the view of disco-
vering if it were true that Mr. Abercromby was the au-
thor of the speech, and if he were to show how false the
statements relative to his conduct were, and how much
he was deceived by the information be received. His
communication was answered by a letter from Mr. Aber-
cromby, stating that he owed it to himself, as well as to
other Members of Parliament, not to enter into any ex-
planation with respect to sentiments imputed to him on
the authority of newspapers alone. He at the same time
stated that, as far as Lis memory could serve him, it was
satisfactory to find that shat he did say on the occasion
was substantially correct. When be recollected that
these statements, so injurious to his character, were cir-
culated through the country, he felt it his duty to pub•
licly avow that they were unwarranted, groundless, and
false. As he conceived the statements to be gross, he
could not but feel that the language he used was war-
ranted by the circumstances, and he could not, therefore,
retract the expressions hr made use of in defence of
his character, while lie disclaimed the remotest intro.
tion of violating the privileges of the House. lie con-
cluded by again professing his profound respect for the
Hon. House.
Mr. Menzies then u :revs'.

air. LOU ItTENA t N. 11., af•er the statements which
the house had jus: heard :;:e Learned gentleman,
that he had no intention to commit a breach of privilege,
he was satisfied that I...use would agree with him,
that the coarse most su t wits charrcter and dignity,
was to come to a resoinrioa tiiat no further proceedings
were necessary, and lie would, therefore, move that •• No
further attendance was necessary on the part of Mr.
Menzies."

Mr. BROUGHAM said be felt great pleasure in se-
conding th motion. tie e u sure there could be but of e
teeth)); in the house upon the satisfactory explanatiou
which it had just heard ; and be was satisfied that if his
Hun. Friend (Mr. Abercromby) bad known that these
Gentlemen were actuated by such motives, be would have
been the last man. to consider that they had committed a
Breach of Privi:e4e. lle was convinced, from the course
which had been adopted, that the Privileges of the House
were now as safe as the honour of the parties was un-
touched.

'fie motion was then agrerd to...ad Mr. Menzies dis.
charged from farther proceedings.