The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-05-06 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS.

The periodical meeting of the
Wednesday, in the Town-hall.

Town Council was held ort
The MAYOR presided.

FINANCE COMMITTEE

Mr. RADCLIFFE, jun. read the proceedings of this com-
mittee. It appeared that there had been a further payment
by the corp Oration on account of the purchase of the Birk-
enhead property to Mr. Leonard Addison (of the Liverpool
Standard-office), of £4476, to Mr. John Lowe, as trustee
of William Leonard Lace, £904 ; to Mr. John Addison of
£904 ; and to Dr. Grind►od, £4,000. The proceed-
ings also comprised an application from the surveyor for
additional assistance in his office. _

Mr. G.H. LAWRENCE, in moving the confirmation of the
proceedings, said there was nothing in them to which he
need draw the
,particular attention of the council, unless it
was the application of the surveyor for additional assistance
in his office. In that application he concurred, not without
some reluctance, however, because he felt the full force of
the objection to adding to the burdens of the corporation ;
but he had come to the conclusion that the application was
just, and he asked the council to concur in it, not for the
purpose of conferring a favour upon the surveyor, or of re-
lieving him in the duties which he discharged so well, and
so much to the satisfaction of the council, but in order to do
justice to the corporate estate itself, and to facilitate those
several plans of improvement which the council was pledged
to carry into effect. During the last six months he had had
many opportunities of seeing the interior of the surveyor's
office, and he knew that the great pressure of business there
was inseparable from the increase of the town, and the im-
portance of the corporate estate. He thought the surveyor
was considerably under handed at the present moment,
although he devoted the whole of his time to his duties, and
the subordinates in the office did the same. They were there
from nine till seven; yet an increase in the staff was requi-
site. There were in the office three persons, besides the
surveyor, receiving salaries of £l5 a year, and he had had
the assistance of Mr. Parry, who had been out of his time
since July, and who had received no salary whatever from
the council. He (Mr. L.) proposed then that a salary of
£lOO a year be granted to Mr: Parry, and that the surveyor
should have permission, when he could find an eligible per
son, to engage an additional clerk, at a salary of £l5O per
annum. Less assistance than that, if the pressure of busi-
ness continued as it was, would not be sufficient ; but it
would be well understood, that if the pressure were removed,
the person whom it was now contemplated to add to the
office, would be the first person to be discharged. With
these remarks he begged to move the confirmation of the
proceedings.
Mr. HOUGHTON seconded the motion.
Mr. BRIGHT inquired whether it was proposed that Mr.
Parry should receive salary from July last ?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE replied he had not proposed that;
but it would be for the council to say what they wished in
that respect.

Mr. LLOYD said that with regard to the assistance now
required in the surveyor's office, he shoUld only be doing his
duty to the council, as well as to the public, by stating what
had taken place in a committee where the assistance of the
surveyor and his staff was much required. He alluded to
the Courts of Law Committee. The subject of the assist-
ance required by the surveyor had been mooted in that com-
mittee, and he then thought it his duty to state a rumour
which prevailed generally in the town that the assistants in
the surveyor's office did not devote their whole attention to
their duty to the public, but that they engaged in private
.pursuits. He knew it himself indeed ; for it had come to
his own knowledge more than once. (Hear, hear.) The
office was one where the fullest assistance ought to be given,
and it was not for the consideration of an additional £l5O a
year that a large estate like that ought to suffer. (Hear.)
He entertained the greatest respect for the surveyor, and he
admitted that the fullest assistance ought to he afforded to
that gentleman in his department, and he added that the
committee of which he was a member bad been kept waiting
for plans from the surveyor's office since last No ember, and

that they had been as yet unfurnished. (Hear.) Ile should
follow up these observations by an amendment, that the pro-
ceedings be not confirmed, so far as they relate to the giving
of additional assistance to the surveyor; and he intimated
his intention of further moving that a committee be appointed
for the purpose of inquiring into that and other departments
in which the council had reason to expect that the whole of
the time of the assistants was not devoted to the public
service.

• Mr. d. H. LAWRENCE said the corporation had a per-
fect right to the services of these men from nine in the morn-
ing till seven in the evenings, but he did not know whether
they could prevent them from making anything in the time
beyond that. All their services, however, between nine and
seven belonged to the corporation, and he understood that
they were given. He had heard that one, and only one, Mr.
Kilpin, might make something beyond his salary, in his own
time, but Mr. Robinson did not. And after all, what was
their salary ? It was only £l5O a year—a sum so trifling that
how could they expect a clerk to live respectably out of it ?
Mr. BIRKETT.—Then increase it.

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE, in continuation, said he had no
objection to the proposed committee, but he trusted the
council would grant the assistance requiste for the service of
the estate. Do not let them throw an imputation on the sur-
veyor by refusing it.
Mr. LLOYD threw no imputation whatever upon the sur-
veyor. If there was talent in the office he wished it to be

paid, but at the same time he wished it to be given to the
corporation, who were entitled to it. The statement he had
made now had not been made without calling the surveyor
before the committee, and he then stated to the committee
that he had his suspicions.
The. MAYOR believed the surveyor himself had been allowed
to furnish the plans of a public buiding, but he had not been
permitted to receive any remuneration.
Mr. PLATT thought the case, as made out by Mr. Lloyd,
was one of the very best arguments for increasing the salary
of the clerks in the surveyor's office. It they devoted their
services to the corporation from nine in the morning until
seven at night it was as much as any reasonable man could
expect.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE suggested that the inquiry should
be referred to the Finance Committee, but that temporary
assistance should be granted as it really was required.
Mr. HODGSON said the chairman of the Finance Commit-
tee had not shown why the corporation were not entitled to
all the time of their servants, because they paid every per-
son for their services. ,He agreed with Mr. Lloyd that it was
important that all doubt be removed on this subject ; but he
could not agree with the chairman of the Finance Committee
that the services of the persons to be employed by the sur-
veyor, so long as those services were not superabundant,
ought to be given to any private purposes whatsoever, be-
cause they were entitled, not merely to the services of stated
hours, but to such an exertion of mind as would not allow
them to do any duty but that to the corporation, because the
corporation could afford to keep them fully occupied. But if
the corporation were in a bankrupt state, either of feeling or
money, and could not afford to pay them for their services,
they must let them work for others, but the corporation were
not in that condition : whatever remuneration was proper
and fitting they were enabled to give to the full extent, and in
return they called for the full dedication of the services of
their servants to them. The Improvement Committee the
other day were called upon as to some property without an
adequate report from the surveyor. He did not blame the
surveyor for this; and if his time was so occupied that the
committee could not have the benefit of his assistance, the
council must see that adequate means were supplied to him,
but at the same time all the persons in the office must give
the whole of their services to the corporation. He thought,
after the statement made by Mr. Lloyd, that it would be well
for the Finance Committee to make themselves thoroughly
acquainted with the fact as to whether the clerks in the de-
partment devoted their time to the discharge of the necessary
business or not.

Mr. Aldernnin EVANS said that all who were versed in the
modern lijstory of this country would recollect a remark made
by Sher Man at the time of the mutiny at the Nore. He ob-
sq. vett" this is no time tor going into disputes about what
.atight hereafter to be done, but we should save the fleet."
Now it was quite obvious whether they had the whole time
of the gentlemen in the surveyor's office or not, that even if
they had it, they required extra aid under the present pres-
sure. It was, therefore, the duty of the council instantly to
order temporary assistance, and then leave Mr. Lloyd and
other gentlemen who had any cause of complaint to institute
their inquiries. He was aware of the pressure upon the sur-
veyor, because one of the committee, to which he had the ho-
nour to belong, had for the last nine months been asking for
plans for the new market in Gill-street ; but he had access
constantly to the surveyor's office, where every diligence was,
at least outwardly, shown ; and he had not the slightest
doubt that let what would occur, with regard to the whole
time of the 'assistants, 'they could not dispense with the aid
the chairman of the Finance Committee had asked.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said that Mr. Hodgson's remarks
might cause some misconception ; if they went before the
public without explanation it might appear as if the Im-
provement Committee had been called upon to decide upon
purchasing property without having had a valuation of it.
This was not the case.

Mr. G. H. CANVRENCE agaid suggested that the matter
should be referred to the Finance Committee, the proceed-
ings in the meantime to be confirmed.

Mr. MELLOR agreed with Mr. Lloyd. He thought it
preposterous to engage further assistance until they knew
whether the present servants were not sufficient to perform
the necessory duty, and whether they could not discharge
that duty efficiently if they devoted their whole time. lie
seconded Mr. Lloyd's amendment.
Mr. HENRY LAWRENCE thought it desirable that their
servants should devote the whole of their time to the services
of the corporation, and not be eking out their income by the
doing of other work.

M. LLOYD said the surveyor, in the presence of the com-
mittee, had distinctly stated that he had his suspicions—that
he had a difficulty in getting work from some, and that he
had not the same satisfaction from those in his office that he
considered himself entitled to receive.

Mr. PROCTER thought, under these circumstances, that
Mr. Lloyd had done no more than his duty in bringing the
subject before the council. (Hear, hear.) _

The TOWN-CLERR begged 'to be allowed to make an ob-
servation upon this question. It seemed 3o him that the
council had not looked at the question fairly raised upon the
demand of the-surveyor himself for assistance. All the dis-
cussion that had taken place had applied to the regulation
of the clerks or assistants in the Surveyor's office ; but here
was a demand made by one of the officers of the corporation
for assistance. He thought there was not an officer of the
corporation whose duties were so well established as those
of the surveyor ; and there could be no question at all that
if there were any of them who discharged his duty effectively
and most efficiently it was the surveyor to i he corporation.
Mr. HODGSON really must say, with great deference to
the Town-Clerk, that it was out of order
for him to proceed
thus. The Town-clerk had not been asked to give his opinion
on the question.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said there was no legal question before
the council.
The TowN-cLERK. said he was aware that there was no
legal question before the council, but at the same time he
thought that some courtesy ought to be paid to one officer
when he spoke for the services of another. Ile thought also
that the councillor who made the objection seemed to have
forgotten the fact that he (the Town-clerk) did not stand
there merely as a servant or as an ordinary officer of the
corporation, but as a person whose office was recognised in
the charter; and, therefore, he had in that respect a right to
bring forward his views before the council, independent of
any legal capacity upon his part. Such was the notion he
entertained of his office—such was the notion he had endea-
voured to carry out, and such was the notion of the most re-
spectable solicitors of the town—that he was a material part
of the corporation ; that he was a kind of steward of the cor-
poration, and that he had a right to bring forward, beyond
what belonged to him in his legal capacity, that which apper-
tained to he good administration of the estate. He re-
gretted to be obliged to allude to this point, but he would
still suggest that the question before the council on this
occasion was not immediately as to the management of the
assistants or clerks of the surveyor, but that it was a consi-
deration of the request which the surveyor bad himself made
for additional assistance in his department.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY, with all due deference to the
Town-clerk, thought him decidedly wrong in the law he had
laid down for himself. He looked on his duties in the coun-
cil as arduous and responsible, but unless the question were
one of law, or that he was called on to give an opinion, he
had no right to speak. Upon a question of the present kind,
the Town-clerk had no more right to give his opinion than
any man out of the council chamber.
Mr. HoDGSO ventured as a personal friend of the Town-
clerk's to make the observation he had made, because it could
not be supposed that he had any other than a very kind feel-
ing towards that gentleman. The Town-clerk had, however,
no vote in the council, and was not an acknowledged party
there except for consultation and advice, and when he gave
an opinion without being asked for it, he was trying to influ-
nce the council without right or authority.

Mr. EVANS thought they had better close the discussion,
and proceed to business.
Mr. LLOYD then shaped his amendment in nearly the fol-
lowing terms :—That the proceedings of the Finance Com-
mittee be confirmed, so far as authorising them to give such
temporary assistance to the surveyor in his office as they may
i
deem necessary, and that it be anintimation or instruction
to them to inquire as to the efficient performance of the
duties of all the clerks there employed.
This amendment was agreed to, and the proceedings were

confirmed

WATCH COMMITTEE.
proceedings of the Watch Committee having been

The
read,

Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE moved their confirmation.
Mr. Alderman EARLE wished to know why a man of the
name of Simmonds had been appointed to the police force?
His attention had been directed to a paragraph in one of the
papers, in which certain statements had been made that led
him to think the appointment of Simmonds a bad one.
Mr. JOHN SMITH.—Read the paragraph.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.--Sir, I'll do as I like.
Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE asked whether he should answer

the question?
The MAYOR thought the council were not bound to take
notice of paragraphs in the papers.
Mr. J. LAWRENCE said there was nothing secret in the
matter, and that he was quite ready and prepared to answer
the question if the council desired.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said it app(

I that Simmonds

ster case of

)or, crazy crea
•eets. After th

bad taken an important part in
Hearne v. Stowell, which was about sc
ture who had been found crawling in t _
trial, Manchester became too warm for him, and he came
over to Liverpool, where he made application to the police
committee, but was unable to obtain an appointment in the
force.• He had been originally in the Liverpool police force,
hut being remonstrated with by the chairman, or committee,
for impropriety of conduct, be became extremely saucy.
It was thereupon recommended that he should resign, in
order that he might not be kicked out of the force, and he
accordingly took the advice and resigned. He had been
recently asked, in presence of the committee, how he had
left his wife and family in Manchester, and what he allowed
them to live upon, upon which he, who had been backed by
a whole host of the clergy of the established church, said
that he allowed them 2s. 6d. a-week. Ile' was then cautioned
as to his answer, because it appeared that the allowance was
only 2s. a-week ; but he still persisted, and said at last that
2s. a-week was all thai the magistrates' had ordered him to
pay. Here, then, was a man, with 18s. a-week, who only al-
lowed his family 2s. a-week 1 And was this the man to be
appointed an officer in the police force of Liverpool ? If
these statements were not correct, some gentlemen, he dared
say, would tell him so.
Mr. PARKER.—They are not correct.
Mr. EARLE.—I am glad to hear it, because I only asked
for information.
Mr. 11. LAWRENCE.—Does the name of this individual
occur in the proceedings which have been just read?
Mr. J. LAWRENCE.—Yes; as making the application to

I think there ought not to be

be appointed
Mr. Alderman EARLE
any screening of such conduct as this, I
quently appointed to the force. There is
lution of the Watch Committee, which says,
shall be appointed under them unless be has a recommenda-
tion from his last employer, or from some one who has a
knowledge of his character; but, in the present case, this
was dispensed with.
Mr. J. LAWRENCE.—No, no.
Mr. EARLE.—That's the only flat contradiction I have
received. (Laughter.)
Mr. PROCTER.—As the man's name is not mentioned in
the proceedings 1 beg to call Mr. Earle to order.
Mr. EARLE (who read from a newspaper he held in his
hand).—He comes recommended by the Rev. Hugh Stowell,
the Rev. Hugh M`Neile, the Rev. Fielding Ould. the Rev.
William Falloon, the Rev. Dr. Tattershall, the Rev. Thomas
Nolan, and a whole host of others. (Great laughter from the
Radicals.)
The MAYOR.—As his name is not in the proceedings, we
are only consuming time, because the subject is not before
the council.
Mr. EARLE.—I think I have said enough to induce the
council to inquire how this individual, who allows his family
2s. a-week and receive 18s., came into the police force ?
Mr. J. LAWRENCE.—Am I at liberty to reply ?
The MAYOR.—I think you have no need to vindicate the
conduct of the committee.
Mr. EARLE.—My end is answered. I have brought the
matter before the public.
The MAYOR.—Yes, you have run the gauntlet ; but I
should not have allowed you to do so if I had known your

cruse 6e was subse-

xcellent reso-
that no man

object.
Mr. J. LAWRENCE.—The man is now discharging his duty
very much to the satisfaction of the head constable, and his
appointment has been a very credible one. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COPELAND.—The head constable told me he was
going on in a very satisfactory manner. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H ODGSON.—The appointment was made ;titer due
consideration.
Mr. EARLE.—Oh, I am more than pleased. (Ironical
laughter.)
Mr. MELLOR.—As a member of the Watch Committee, I
felt it my duty to oppose the appointment of this man. lie
was taken—
Mr. A. SMITH, jun. contended, that as Mr. Alderman
Earle had been stopped by, the Mayor, Mr. Mellor should be
stopped also. •
Mr. PARKER said that if Mr. Mellor was heard he should
claim the same right.
The MAYOR said he was ignorant of the circumstances or
he shoulknot have allowed Mr. Earle to have gone on ; and
having dikovered what they were he should stop Mr. Mel-
lor. The time, however, would come when they could make
such,remarks as they might think fit.
Mr. AI KlN.—When the proceedings of a committee are
read, is it not competent for any member of the council to
ask questions upon them ?
The MAYOR.—Yes, certainly.
Mr. AncrN.—Then Mr. Earle is asking a question upon
them.
Mr. PROCTER.—But the mans name
appear upon the committee's proceedings
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—WeII, I will bring the matter be-
fore the council in a regular way if it is necessary
The MAYOR.—Your proper tours •
pointment before the committee, an
cumstances before I should have stopped you
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—I am glad yon were not sharp
enough to discover them before, Mr. Mayor.
Mr. AIKIN.—If an appointment is made by the Watch
Committee, is it not competent to bring it before the

Simmonds, does not

t will be to firing the ap-
d if I had known the cir-

council ?
Mr. BusitELL.—By special motion.
Mr. J. LAWRENCE.-It seems to be forgotten that the ap-
pointments made by the committee are final, and that the
council have nothing to do with them.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—I understand the committee
have the power to appoint without any reference to the

council.
The TOWN-CLERK.—The Watch Committee is placed by
the municipal corporations' act on a different footing from
any other committee. The corporation act enacts that there
shall be a Watch Committee, and for the council to fill up
the members of that committee, and. then it provides for the
duties of the committee in the appointment of constables and
other officers. it is different from the appointment of any,
other committee; for instance, it is different from the ap-
pointment of the Finance Committee, which is understood
to be the highest committee we have. The Finance Com-
mittee is appointed under the 70th section, but the appoint-
ment of the Watch Committee is obligatory on the council.
Their duties are provided for by the act, the consequence of
which is. that the Watch Committee, have the appointment
of all officers under their charge, did the only control the
council have over the Watch Committee isl 2 refuse the sup-
plies if they think they are improperly required.
Mr. A. SMITH.—I beg to move that we proceed to the
consideration of the nest subject on the paper.
Mr. PARKER.—Mr. Earle has made a charge against the
committee, and I rise to vindicate my own character as one
of the members of that committee.
The MAYOR.—You had better not mind him.
Mr. MELLOR.—I rise to say a few words.
Mr. PARKER.—I shall not sit down if Mr. Mellor is al-
lowed to proceed.
Mr. MELLOR.—I think the mayor will admit that I have
a right to make some remarks upon the proceedings of the
watch committee.
Mr. PARKER.—And he will admit also that I have a right
to make some remarks, as I am a member of it.
The MAyon..—Oh ! certainly.
Mr. PARKER.—I merely rise—
Mr. PROCTER.—Has the gentleman any amendment to

propose?
Mr. PARKER.—No ; I merely wish to vindicate myself as
having had to do with the appointment of Simmonds.
Mr. J. SMITH.—Let the mayor decide at once whether
Dl r. Parker is in order.
The MAYOR.—He may proceed.
Mr. PARKER.—I think that if Mr. Earle had come to the
watch committee, which consists of five-and-twenty members,
they would have given him every satisfaction, and that such
a course would have been much more in order than to come
here and put questions which it would take three hours to
discuss properly. I maintain that the appointment of Sim-
moods was a good one ; that the recommendation he brought
with him was high in the extreme ; and that he had a cha-
racter sufficiently high for any situation in the gift of the
committee. I think the slur Mr, Earle has thrown on the
ministers of the gospel was not at all in character with him
as a member of the Church of England. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. EARLE.—He allows his wife 2s. a week.
Mr. PARKER.—And I understand it is more than she
deserves. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. MELLOR contended that the appointment was irregu-
lar. It was contrary to the standing orders passed in January
last, and he requested that the Deputy Town-clerk might
read the report of the sub-committee as to the mode of
taking on men, which was passed on the ]sth of January.
Mr. PARKER said, this would re-open the whole question.
The MAYOR asked whether Mr. Mellor had reason to
think that the standing orders had been departed from ?
Mr. MELLOR replied in the affirmative.
Mr. RADCLIFFE then read one of the standing orders,
which was to the effect that no testimonial be admitted except
from the last employer or some respectable individual having
a personal knowledge of the applicant.
Mr. J. LAWRENCE said that other testimonials respecting
the man's character had been before the committee, inde-
pendently of the one signed by the clergy.
Mr. MELLOR said, he had been one of the committee who
had recommended the adoption of the rule just read. The
reason of its adoption was to prevent testimonials from being
signed by constituencies, which was a very improper thing.
No one would deny that the rule was sound in principle.
Within a few months after the adoption of the rule, a memo-
rial, signed by not less than thirty individuals, was brought
to the Watch Committee, and by that committee referred to
the daily board. He contended that no such memorial
should have been received, and that it ought to have been
declared irregular. He felt it necessary to state, however,
that there were three or four separate testimonials from the
parties who had signed the general one. It would have been
perfectly regular to send the separate testimonials to the
sub-committee; but it was equally irregular to send them the
general memorial which had been signed by the ministers of
the Church of England, because a memorial so signed was
calculated to influence men's judgments,
and to induce them
to make an appointment which they would not have done in
the absence of such general testimony. Upon those grounds
he had moved in committee that the appointrdent be not con-
firmed ; and as Mr. Earle had now brought the matter before
the council, he had no hesitation in repeating his statement
before the Watch Committee, that the appointment of the
man was irregular.
Mr. J. LAWRENCE wished, after the speech which had
just been made, to leave the matter in the hands of the coun-
cil, Mr. Mellor having admitted that there were three
memorials from single individuals. One of those memorials
was from the man's last employer. (H_ea_ra.)_, The principal
parties who signed the general memorialth d moreov.er, an
f hem had written a
individual knowledge of him. One
note to him (Mr. L.) saying tbat heo had known him for
number of years, and that he bore a most excellent character.a
Mr. EARLE.—Two shillings a.week. (A. laugh.)
Mr. J. LAWRENCE.—If you had been in the same situa-
tion perhaps you would have thought 2s. a-week a great deal
too much. (Hear.) Mr. Lawrence then proceeded to con-
tend that the appointment was one which the committee had
been quite justified in making.
Mr. THORNHILL contended that the Watch Committee
ought not to have made the appointment.
Mr. GLADSTONE said, that it appeared to him the wholecharge brought against this individual was that be had takent
a conspicuous part in the trial of " Hearne v. Stowell,' b
is
surely as long as a man did his duty and had no stain on h..
character, neither the Watch Committee nor the Council
were justified in making such an enquiry as that now before

them. But if they were to go into what might be termed
political services, he thought the Council should give to some
of them advice as to how they were to act, for if they only
took a retrospective view of past proceedings, he should he
glad to learn where that individual was who had not, in the
first instance, discharged the full measure of his political ser-
vice before he gained an appointment ? He (Mr. Gladstone)
did not complain of that—he did not think it was unfair ; if
the man was competent it was quite correct ; but if they (the
conservatives) were to be found fault with for such things,
let the Council go boldly into the subject and examine into
past appointments.
Mr. PROCTOR said he would state one circumstance con-
nected with the appointment of Simmonds, which he thought
would have some weight with the council. It• was the fact
that he had been employed at one of the public institutions
of the town, namely, the Northern Hospital, since the trial of
" Hearne v. Stowell," where no political feeling was allowed,
and he bore a highly respectable character there.
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—The public will judge.
The proceedings were then confirmed.
THE MARKETS' COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of the-Markets' Committee were next
read and confirmed.
TOWN-HALL ESTABLISHMENT COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of the Town-hall Establishment Com-
mittee, comprising the appointment of Edward Smith, as
porter at the Sessions'-house, in lieu of J. Napier, dismissed,
were also read and confirmed.