The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-03-11 00:00:00

ADJOURNED COUNCIL MEETING.

The adjourned meeting of the Town Council for the de-
gpatch of business remaining undispos.Tl of from the last
meeting was held on Wednesday, in the Town-hall. The
MAYon presided.

GARDENS COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of this committee were read and con-
firmed without eliciting any remarks.

CHURCH EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Church Expenditure Committee
having been read, their confirmation was moved and se-

condea

vv
Mr. BIRKETT said, that from the lowness of the windows
on the north side of St. Thomas's Church, they were con-
stantly getting broken. In order to prevent this, which was
a source of sorle expense, he begged to move that the Church
Expenditure Committee be empowered to procure wire guards
for those windows. . . .

The TOWN.CLERK said Mr. Birkett's remarks might be
considered as it suggestion to the committee, but they need
not be the subj ect of an express motion. By the act of par-
liament the council were bound to keep the church in repair,
and that duty Inust be executed by the Church Expenditure
Committee.
Mr. BIRKETT.—I am satisfied with that explanation.
The MAYOR.—There is no reason why you should not be.
The proceedings of the committee were then confirmed;
and, on the motion of Mr. BIRKETT, seconded by Mr. PAR-
KER, the appointment of Mr. W. C. Ashlin, as organist to
St. Martin's Church, was confirmed.

COURT OF REQUESTS COMMITTEE.
The appointment of Christopher Smith to the vacant situa-
tion of execution officer, along with the other proceedings of
this committee, were confirmed.
OBSERVATORY AND HEALTH OF TOWN COMMITTEES.
The proceedings and resolutions of these two committees
were confirmed.

EDUCATIONAL PROCEEDINGS.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY said it would be in the minds of
the council that towards the conclusion of the debate on the
school question at the last meeting, his friend Mr. Sands
made some remarks with reference to the conduct of the late
Education Committee, and said he should like to have an
opportunity of putting some questions to Mr. Barclay upon
that subject. He had asked Mr. Sands to put his questions •
then ; and from a report in the newspapers, it would appear
that to his (Mr. Alderman Barclay's) question, Mr. Sands
replied that he had something to say, but at that late hour
in the evening he begged to postpone it. He (Mr. Alderman
Barclay) would be very glad to know now, for his own sake
and for the sake of those gentlemen who had served with
bitn on the school committee, whether Mr. Sands had any-
thing to say upun that subject or not ?
Mr. SANDS. in reply, said it would be recollected that at
the last council he did in the heat of the moment make a re-
mark relating to the last Education Committee, and that see-
ing Mr. Alderman Barclay opposite he mentioned his name.
Ile had an impression upon his mind at the time, of a cir-
cumstance which came to his knowledge at the time he was
appointed a member of the Education Committee. He be-
lieved there were one or two children i❑ the South School
which were not only allowed to be there free of all charge,
but that their parents were allowed something weekly as an
inducement to send them. He had that circumstance in his
mind at the time, but he should not have mentioned it if it
had not been elicited by some rather warm remarks from
gentlemen opposite. Ile had also in his mind the mode in
which deference was paid to the Roman Catholic clergy at
the time Mr. Alderman Barclay's party came into power, and
the sending out of Protestant children from the schools
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Sending out ?
Mr. SANDS.—Yes, sending out, in the same sense that the
gentlemen opposite said that the present Education Commit-
tee had sent out Catholic children. Of course he much
preferred that all these matters were buried in oblivion, rather
than anything should be said on either side to irritate the
feelings of any one. He had no wish to give offence to Mr.
Barclay or any one else ; he had stated what lie believed to
be correct, and if he were wrong, he should be obliged by
Mr. Barclay setting him right.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY said, that with regard to the
fact of children having been admitted into the schools with-
out paying, or any particular allowance having been made to
parents for sending. their children there, he not only knew
of nothing of the kind, but he would say further that he did
not believe it was the fact. If Mr. Sands could produce any
instance of the kind, lie (Mr. Alderman Barclay) would at-
tempt to answer it, but at present he did not believe in the
existence of either one or the other. If any children had
gone to the schools and not paid their pence, of course he
could not help it. Had Mr Sands withdrawn his expressions
of the exclusion of children from the schools or not? He
understood Mr. Sands to mean that he had no serious charge
to bring against the late Education Committee, as to any at-
tempts made to induce children to come to the schools.
Mr. SANDS : I have nothing further to say than what I
have said. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Alderman Earle.)
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY : Very well.
Mr. Alderman EARLE : I hope the reporters have taken
that down

And the speech of Mr. Earle

Mr. HENRY LAWRENCI
too. (Laughter.)
The conversation on this subject then terminated
DOCK COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Dock Committee having been read.
their confirmation was moved by Mr. SANDS, and seconded
by Mr. HENRY HOLMES.
Mr. GLADSTONE said it was not his intention to raise
any opposition to the confirmation of the proceedings of
the Dock Committee; but it certainly did appear to him,
that the members of the council, and especially those of
their body who were not members of the Dock Commit-
tee, out to be put in possession of the reports which had
been made by Messrs. Walker and Cubitt, the engineers,
relative to the plans for the new docks, before they were
called upon to form an opinion of what, in the absence of
those reports, they must be necessarily ignorant. There
was no one who felt more strongly than he did, or more
desirous to abide by the understanding arrived at in the
sub-committee of which he had the pleasure to be chairman,
that all opposition on our part should cease against the dock
warehouse scheme, on the settlement that was then agreed
to, being concluded than he did ; and to that arrangement
he was prepared to adhere. But this was so important a
question that he thought the council would be of opinion
with him that every member ought to be put in full posses-
sion of all the details. From the little he had seen of the
dock plans, he must say that he leaned very strongly to the
form of dock adopted by Mr. Gaze ; for he bad, from practi-
cal experience been long acquainted with the extreme incon-
venience of the shape of the present docks ; indeed, the very
fact that in getting a single ship out of her berth it was neces-
sary to move seven or eight others to do so, was a circum-
stance that, in itself, was sufficient to call for serious atten-
tion. What he wished was,—and he had no desire to make
a motion to that effect unless he was forced to do so,—that
the reports of the engineers should be printed, and a copy
sent to each member of the council, and that the plans should
be left in the council-room for their inspection. He believed
he might say in answer to what would probably be urged to-
day, that this was another attempt on the part of the ware-
house owners to throw obstacles in the way of the dock ware-
house scheme, that they were entirely unconnected with it,
and, in fact, as a body, were disposed to prefer the plan of
Mr. Hartley, as decided on by the Dock Committee in pre-
ference to that of Mr. Gage. With these views, and with
these remarks, he should be glad to find that no objection was
urged to these reports being furnished, as in the absence of
them, the council were positively called upon to determine on
matters, of which information was withheld, and they, there-
fore, necesssarily ignorant of. The council held a responsible
situation : they were the trustees of the docks, and were now
required to decide on a question involving a very large sum
of money ; surely, therefore, it was both right and necessary
that they should be made aware of the details connected with
tnese dock plans before they gave that decision. He looked
upon this question, not alone as one to be viewed as that of
corporation property, but as a question in which every ship-
owner in the kingdom, who might send his vessel to this port,
was interested. Though he wished to urge these remarks on
the council, it was not his intention to oppose the confirma-
tion of the proceedings of the Dock Committee, trusting,
that what he had proposed, would be complied with.
Mr. Alderman Nicol., as a member of the Dock Com-
mittee, would cordially second Mr. Gladstone's request, if
it were to have the reports and plans laid upon the table.
The objection to printing the reports arose from their being
so voluminous. Occupying, as they did, with the evidence
attached to them, he scarcely knew how many pages, he ap-
prelrendeci the expense of printing them would be very con-
siderable indeed. That was the strongest objection which
he felt to Mr. Gladstone's request. At the same time, he
believed the Chairman of the Dock Committee was prepared
to state generally that there was not the slightest objection
to lay the reports and plans upon the table.
Mr. SANDS inquired whether he was to understand that
Mr. Gladstone simply asked for the reports of Mr. Walker
and Mr. Cubitt?
Mr. GLADSTONE, in reply, said he wished that they should
be printed and circulated among the members of the council.
Mr. SANDS, in continuation, said, if he could conceive
that any good would come from it, he would be the last man
in the world to oppose Mr. Gladstone's motion, but it would
be incurring a very serious expense without the slightest good.
In fact, he doubted whether the council had power to order
the reports to be printed—
Mr. GLADSTONE.—It requires two-thirds.
Mr. SANDS certainly would not take advantage of that ;
but, if lie thought the council were disposed to order the
plans to be printed, he should feel it his duty to go into de-
tails which he believed would induce them not to interfere
at all in the matter. When the Dock Committee were in
parliament some two years ago for an act to make the dock
upon which they were now at work, Mr. Gage then submit-
ted some plans to them, and those plans received the most
serious attention and consideration from the Dock Commit-
tee. A special sub-committee was appointed to examine
those plans and to report upon them, and one member of
that-sub-committee, he believed, was his friend Mr. Chap-
man, who was always disposed to look favourably upon what
Mr. Gage did ; but that committee reported that Mr. Gage's
plans were impracticable. He did not know, indeed, whe-
ther Mr. Gladstone himself was not the chairman of that
sub-committee.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he was not, and that the committee
be had alluded to was the committee which was appointed to
arrange the warehouse question.
Mr. SANDS said, however that might be, that sub-com-
mittee reported that Mr. Gage's plans were impracticable.
Just at the time the dock committee were commencing their
present works for the new dock, Mr. Gage got all the asso-
ciated bodies together, and they expressed an opinion that
the committee were not going to make the new dock so as to
get as much accommodation as possible. They sent that
communication to the dock committee, and he (Mr. Sands),
as the chairman of the committee, said he would be happy to
see those gentlemen, and to hear anything that they had to
say to induce the committee to reconsider their plan, and
they would willingly adopt such plans as would afford
the greatest possible amount of accommodation to the
shipping interest of the port. They waited upon the dock
committee, and the dock committee heard all they had to
say. The deputation from the East India Association, Mr.
Turner, said, " As far as the merchants connected with the
East Indies are concerned, they feel, and always have felt,
that the great difficulty experienced in the port of Liverpool
has been the want of warehouses round the docks, as respects
their trade. So long as you can secure warehouses that can
be efficiently worked by any new plan, they have nothing to
say in opposition to such alteration of the plans ; but they do
feel that any alteration involving decreased warehouse space,
or that impairs their efficiency—scarcely no other advantage
will compensate for that loss. ' Mr. George Hall Lawrence,
from the West India Association, said he was quite willing to
leave the matter in the hands of the dock committee, and
Mr. Parker, his colleague, said be coincided with what Mr.
Lawrence had stated. He (Mr. Sands) was now stating the
opinions of the different associ.sted bodies in the town, to
show it was not the opinion of the associations generally that
Mr. Gage's plans were the best, but just the reverse. Mr.
Todd said that "the principle ot warehouses upon the duck
quays has been acknowledged by the American Chamber of
Commerce, and I am sure I speak the sense of that chamber
when I say that any variation of plan, which would remove
that which has so great advantages, would be poorly com-
pensated for by other advantages.. The Mediterranean and
Levant Association expressed a similar opinion through Mr.
Filcher and Mr. Paul; but, notwithstanding these, there
was the Shipowners' Association, and perhaps
Theyone or two
others, that expressed an opposite oPinimiroc were
much in favour of Mr. Gages plan ; and the
.com-
mittee therefore decided upon calling in the very best o
infor-
mation which they could possibly obtain upon the subject
down
They wrote to Mr. Walker and Mr. Cubitt, wh came
After
and heard all that the associated bodies had got to say.
some time those gentlemen sent the Dock Committee their
reports and plans, but before that the Dock Committee had
shewn the plans of Mr. Hartley and Mr. Gage to all the doca ck
and harbour masters; they took their opinions as practil
men, and to a man every individual who had been examined

preferred the plans for which the set of parliament had been
obtained, those of Mr. Hartley, to those of Mr. Gage. Who,
then, was to decide ? Were the Dock Committee to call in
the associated bodies again after having already heard their
opinions? Were they to appeal to the town, or who was to
decide the question ? The Dock Committee after having
given the greatest possible consideration to the subject
thought they were the parties to decide, and they did decide;
they decided that the plans for which they had an act of
parliament should be the plans upon which they would pro-
ceed. Then the question arose whether the reports of Mr.
Walker and Mr. Cubitt should be shewn to the public, and
the Dock Committee said they should lie upon the table for
their inspection. Mr. Gage called upon him (Mr. Sands) to
know whether he might read them ; he replied, " certainly,
do what you like," and he further gave instructions to Mr.
Mason, the secretary, to allow Mr. Gage to make extracts if
he chose,—in fact to do what he thought fit. Now, he wanted
to know what good could now come from their being printed.
The Dock Committee had already incurred an expense of
seven hundred or eight hundred guineas by what had hitherto
been done, and it would cost at least two hundred guineas
more to print the reports and the evidence. Besides, they
were not going to act upon those reports if they were printed.
He therefore could see no good in printing them, or he should
be very happy to agree to Mr. Gladstone's wishes ; but the
reports might lie upon the council-table for the next three
months, or for six months if they chose, for the Dock Com-
mittee had no objection to that. This was Mr. Walker's
opinion upon the plan of Mr. Hartley :—" Had no act been
passed nor any restrictions imposed, I should still say that,
all things considered, it is decidedly the best plan for the
purpose of a dock with bonded warehouses. The act makes
it the only one that can be proceeded with at present." Mr.
Cubitt's opinion was :—" Upon the whole, after the most
careful consideration of the subject, I have no hesitation in
stating, as my decided opinion, that the best and most de-
sirable plan, under all the circumstances, is to construct the
dock with warehouses round, upon the plan as settled by
Mr. Hartley." After this, he thought Mr. Gladstone would
be satisfied that the plan upon which the Dock Committee
were now acting, and with which they had already made
considerable progress, was the best.
Mr. Alderman EVANS would not detain the council many
minutes. Some one had questioned whether the council had
or had not the right to call for these documents ; now he
should be very sorry if the council had not the right to call
for or look at any documents belonging to the Dock Commit-
tee. It ought to be recollected that the council were the
trustees of the docks, and therefore, if they desired any docu-
ments belonging to that body, he considered they had a perfect
right to ask for them ; but be was also equally certain that
upon the present occasion, the council would have the good
sense not to ask the exercise of a right that, would be abso-
lutely worse than useless. He conceived that the ridiculous
notion of interference with the committee out of doors ought
to cease now. They had done everything that it was possible
to do, not only to satisfy but to gratify every body out of
doors, without examining nicely with regard to what right
they had to require so much from the committee. He had
to observe before now that after all the lengthened investiga-
tion that the Dock Committee had made of persons, and of
everything material in the management of the docks, for
they had consulted engineers and professional men of all de-
scriptions, and all the very highest of their class, that if there
was real knowledgei existing upon the subject of dock ma-
nagement and dock construction anywhere it was in the dock
committee. He hoped that the council and the public at
large would rest satisfied that everything had been done
which was for the best.
Mr. GLADSTONE felt himself rather at a loss how to deal
with the subject in the absence of the reports for which he
had now called. In the first place he admitted the force of
the remarks which had fallen from Mr. Sands, but he did
not see in them any justifiable excuse for the members of the
council not being made acquainted with the particulars of
the engineers' reports. They were now dealing with an im-
mense sum of money, upon the right and proper appropria-
tion of which every member of the council was competent to
form an opinion. He considered the reports of the engi-
neers very valuable in themselves ; but a man who walked
about the docks, who was a shipowner, and accustomed to
the management of ships, who knew what loading and dis-
charging was, was, to a certain extent, as competent to form
an opinion, and, in some respects, more so, than even Mr.
Walker and Mr. Cubitt. With regard to their reports, he
certainly *should be glad to have them, but he did not see
(but he spoke off-hand) any use in having the evidence that
had been taken—in short, the reports would be sufficient
without the evidence. With regard to such evidence as that
of the dock masters and others which bad been taken, he was
quite ready to admit the force of it, but at the same time he
should not fail to take into consideration that however good
and efficient the dock masters and other servants of the trust
might be, they were not men who could speak from the prac-
tical experience of having worked such docks as those on
the plans of Mr. Gage. He should like to have the evidence
of a man who bad worked such docks, who bad practical
information to give concerning them, because every thing
else must to a great extent be matter of theory. With the
very little he knew, he was not prepared to say that Mr.
Gage's plan was better than Mr. Hartley's ; he did not know
that it was, but from what he had seen he believed there were
parts of Mr. Gage's plan superior to some of Mr. Hartley's.
What Mr. Sands had stated as the opinions of the associated
bodies went rather to prove that the convenience of ship-
owners was to be sacrificed to the warehousing of goods. Mr.
Sands said that the associated bodies had all spoken in fa-
vour of Mr. Hartley's plan with the exception of the ship-
owners, and one or two other associations. There were a
great many associations, who had given an opinion in favour
of Mr. Hartley's plan, he admitted ; but the shipowners,
who were a body of practical men, were opposed to it. Mr.
Sands had asked who was to decide the question after the
Dock Committee had taken all the evidence. Why, he (Mr.
Gladstone) said that council was to decide the question ; the
council was the body to decide, and how could they decide
without knowing what they were to decide upon? He ad-
mitted the force of Mr. Sands' arguments, and he regretted
that circumstances should exist that the present act would
not admit of an alteration such as Mr. Gage's plan proposed.
However, as he ha stated in the fist nstance though he
felt a deep interest in the question,r hei , had no desire, nor
would he, to thwart the proceedings of the Dock Committee
in carrying out their plans ; but, at the sametime, be thought
that the council having, in the case of the present bill before
parliament, gone to the expense of printing and circulating
it, a copy of which he held in his hand, and which contained
quite as much matter as the engineers' reports without the
evidence, they ought also to print these reports for circula-
tion among the members of the council.
Mr. AMIN agreed with many of the remarks which had
been made by Mr. Gladstone, such, for instance, as that
wherein he declared that individual shipowners and practical
men were quite as able to judge of, and to direct, plans for
the good working of the docks, as any engineer in the king-
dom, and perhaps better. But he begged to recall to the re-
collection of the council that practical men had been appointed
from the council and the town for the express purpose of
superintending those arrangements, and that a great many of
them were extensive shipowners. For instance, there was
himself : his welfare depended entirely on his shipping. He
supposed that no man could have a greater interest in the
subject, because his all, in fact, entirely depended on it. Mr.
Tobin was also an extensive shipowner, and one who was
continually about the docks, and who understood the work-
ing of them, and could not be surpassed in that respect by
any gentleman, except Mr. Horsfall, who had been a member
of the committee for a great many years, and had rendered
great services to the estate, more, he believed, than any man
in the town. They were practical men, and it happened
most fortunately that there were such men to superintend
and manage the dock estat.. (Loud cries of " hear,
hear.) And what were the council now asked to do? They
were asked to publish a very voluminous report, which, when
published, would never be read except by a few who took an
active interest in the matter ; and lie ventured to suggest,
that any individual, who did feel an active interest in the mat-
ter, should go down to the dock committee, and examine the
reports, where he would have the advantage of seeing the
whole plans laid down upon an extensive scale, and thereby
be much better enabled to judge of their respective merits,
than he could by any mere publication. If Mr. Gladstone,
or any other trustee of that great estate, would only be kind
enough to go down and examine the plans and reports, he
(Mr. Aikin) would venture to say that he would come to the
' conclusion which bad been arrived at by every individual
sent there expressly by the ratepayers to oppose the plan
adopted. But, luckily for the interest of the estate, and greatly
to his own credit also, the individual who had last been sent
there was the very party to move that the plan suggested by
Mr. Hartley should be proceeded with. (Hear, hear.) Mr.
Bold had come to the conclusion,. which every reasonable
man must arrive at, that the plans adopted were decidedly
the best ; and he (Mr. Bold) had made a motion for their
adoption, and that motion had been seconded by Mr. Moly-
neux. He hoped the remarks, which had been so well made
by Mr. Sands, would induce many to go and examine for
themselves, in which case he was sure they would come to a
similar conclusion. The West Indian, the American, the
Mediterranean, the Baltic, and other associations, had all
been in favour of the plan adopted. And who had opposed
them ? The Shipmasters' Association had opposed them for-
sooth ; and a very young gentleman had come and made an
excellent speech on a subject about which he was preciously
ignorant. Besides that, there was a gentleman of the North
American timber trade. He (Mr. A.) was present when that
gentleman was putting his questions, and he said to him, " I
believe you approve of the means provided at the south-end
for discharging timber ?" " Yes, was his reply. " Can
anything be constructed better than that dock for the pur-
poses of that special trade ?" was the next question ; and his
reply was "No, none can be better." So far as regarded the
individual trade of this gentleman, the arrangement of the
docks could not be surpassed; and the Dock Committee
thought he ought to be well satisfied. With regard to the
Shipowners' Association he could only say, that fora length
of time he used to go to that association : Mr. Brook Yates
was the chairman ; be, and some two others used to consti-
tute the committee, and upon one or two occasions those two
or three appointed delegations of five for particular purposes,
to represent themselves and the association elsewhere' but it
was eventually broken up, because it was made a West India
or a mercantile association rather than an association of ship-
owners. Another had been lately established, but it was one
in which Mr. Chapman, himself, and some others finding
they had adopted proceedings deserving rather the character
of a warehouse owners association, made their bow and re-
tired. He (Mr. Aikin) happened to be retained upon the
committee in despite of itself, but although he regularly re-
ceived notes he never attended its meetings. Mr. Brockle-
bank was not a member of the association, and he could not
conceive that a more false fancy could get into the minds of
the council than to suppose that " the Shipowners' Associa-
tion" presented a fair view of the opinions of the shipowners
of the town. It did nothing of the kind. Mr. Henderson,
the chairman of that body, had sent resolutions down to the
Dock-trust, which if laid before the council would be con-
sidered little short of extremely impertinent, and not de•
serving of attention. He hoped however, and he believed,
from what had taken place, that Mr. Gladstone would now
rely upon the management of the docks, seeing the various
members who had been appointed since be was there, and re-
collecting as he must do, that there never was a body of men
more devoted to their duty than the present committee, and
that they had only committed one error, and that was in
listening for one moment to the suggestions of interested
parties out of doors, thereby incurring great expense to the
estate, and running the risk of having the trade of the port
injured by the delay that might have arisen.
Mr. PROCTER briefly supported the views of Mr. Glad-

stone.
The TOWN-CLERK said there were some legal consider-
ations in this case which it was his duty to lay before the
council. In the first place, although every thing like publi-
cation for the use of the public, must originate with the
Dock Committee, and not in the council, yet it was for the
council either to confirm or reject the proceedings of the
Dock Committee. But he did not think that the proceed-
ings of the Dock Committee were well laid before the council
for confirmation. The confirmation was of no value at all
unless the reports, evidence, and plans were laid upon the
the table of the council.
After a short conversation further,
Mr. SANDS said he would immediately send a note to the
secretary of the Dock Committee for the plans, evidence,
and reports.
In about an hour afterwards they were laid upon the table,
when Mr. SANDS renewed his motion, and the proceed-
ings were unanimously confirmed.
THE RIVER MERSEY.
The MAYOR acknowledged the receipt of a communication
from Mr. Gage, with a chart inclosed, which, he said, would
enable_ the council to see that what was now called the New
Channel was known to exist 150 years ago. The letter was a
very long one, and entered into some details connected with
the state of the river.
iwysoaßm
e saidt hintloga. t Mr. Okill had a plan in his office a
few years older than that sent by Mr. Gage, which spewed
exactly The A
the
Mr. SANDS moved that Mr. G.'e letter do lie upon the table.

Mr. Alderman EARLE : No, send it to the Dock Committee.
Mr. Alderman EVANs said the letter contained no material
information of any description, therefore it could answer no
end to refer it to any committee. With regard to " harrow-
ing " the channels he had never been an advocate for it: it
never promoted the efficiency of the channels, and it had
long since been left off.
The letter was then ordered to lie upon the table.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE suggested that it would be only courte-
ous towards Mr. Gage to thank him for the communication.
Mr. Alderman EVAN S. —W hy should we lavish our thanks
upon every intruder ? We have had quite enough already
from that quarter. I certainly would not thank him. I
would thank him, however, to leave off annoying us.
(Laughter.)

GAOL COMMIITEE.
The proceedings of the Gaol Committee, comprising the
appointment of Mrs. Shaw, the task mistress, as matron, in
lieu of Mrs. Corduroy, resigned, were read and confirmed.
THE NORTHERN HOSPITAL.
The MAYOR acknowledged the receipt of a communication
from Mr. Robert B. Anderson, the chairman of the Northern.
Hospital, in which he returned thanks on the part of the
committee of that institution for the liberality and benevo-
lence of the council in granting them a piece of land.

THE IMPROVEMENT BILL.
The MAYOR acknowledged the receipt of a memorial
signed by Mr. Case on the subject of the improvement bill.
It stated that at a meeting held at Messrs. Clay and Swift's
office, to take clauses 123 to 128 of the improvement bill into
consideration, it was resolved that the meeting viewed with
surprise the passing of clauses which would be injurious to
the manufactures generally, that the existing law for the sup-
pression of nuisances arising from smoke was sufficient, that
the meeting would oppose the enactment of such clauses, and
that they had appointed a committee for carrying their reso-
lutions into effect.

Mr. BIRKETT moved that the memorial be referred to the
Finance Committee.

Mr. GLADSTONE said he had seen one or two of the gen-
tlemen who were present at the meeting where the memorial
was adopted. He understood their objection to the clauses
to be this—that they were extremely arbitrary in their na-
ture. (Hear, hear.) So much so that a common blacksmith
could not work his chimney without coming under them.
The TOWN-CLERK entered into some explanation of the
clauses, and said he thought it would be desirable to have
the memorial referred to the Finance Committee to see whe-
ther any clauses could be framed which would not he oppres-
sive, and which at the same time would relieve the town from
the nuisances complained of:
Mr. 11. LAWRENCE suggested that in addition to the
power of appeal to the recorder given to parties by this bill
there should be a similar power to the assizes.
Mr. PARKER expressed a hope that the memorial would
have due weight with the council.
Mr. EARLE believed that steam-engines could be made to
consume their own smoke. He was interested in a very large
steam-engine himself; and, if it were practicable, he hoped
they would be made to consume their own smoke.
- Mr. SANDS thought the council ought to be careful not to
do anything to interfere with the commerce of the town, or
with large manufactories.
Mr. YATES said the council appeared to be all agreed that
the clauses of the bill as drawn in London were objectiona-
ble, and that no injury should be done to the manufacturers
of Liverpool. He thought a committee should be appointed
to modify the clauses so as to meet the wishes of the manu-
facturers. The Liverpool and Harrington Company and the
Railway Company, with a laudable attention to the public,
had remedied the evil nuisance arising from the smoke of
their steam-engines—so that it appeared manifest that smoke
could be consumed so far as steam-engines were concerned.
(Hear.)
The memorial was referred to the Finance Committee.

PLEASANT-STREET SCHOOL.
The MAYOR acknowledged the receipt of a letter signed
Francis Shuttleworth, in reference to the school established
in Pleasant-street. It stated that, according to the strict
terms of the lease, the committee were prevented from intro-
ducing any children but those of Irish parents, with a view
to increasing its efficiency, they hoped the council would ex-
tend the terms so as to enable them to introduce others, not
of Irish extraction.
Referred to the Finance Committee.
The MAYOR stated that he had received a memorial from
certain parties, inhabitants of Great George's Ward, in which
they expressed their regret at the late decision of the council
on the education question, and their surprise that the council
should have adopted a decision so much at variance with the
enlightened principles of the day. They concluded by pray-
ing the council to reconsider their decision. The Mayor
said it was numerously and respectably signed, and asked
whether he should read over the names.
Mr. I3ouroN said it would be sufficient to have three or
four of them read.
The M Avon. then read the names of Langton, Johnson,
Boller, Bryden, Knight, Rogers, Murphy, Bruce, &c.
Mr. BOLTON said that, as an inhabitant of Great George's
Ward, he had been requested to support the views of the
memorialists, which he did with the greatest sincerity. He
moved that the memorial be referred to the Education Com-
mittee, with an instruction that the rules for conducting the
schools might be so modified that children of all denomina-
tions might partake of the advantages to which all were enti-
tled. He was induced to make this motion because the
chairman of the Dock Committee (Mr. Sands) had predicted
that the Catholic children would not leave the schools. As
this prediction had not been fulfilled, there was good ground
at present for reconsidering the question, and the memorial
afforded a fair opportunity for so doing.
Mr. SANDS denied that he had uttered any prediction of
the kind. He had, indeed, expressed a sincere hope and de-
sire that they would not leave ; and they would not have left
if the Roman Catholic clergy had not gone to the schools
and insisted on their withdrawing themselves.
Mr. HENRY LAWRENCE suggested that the word " in-
struction" in the motion should he varied, as it was against
the standing orders to receive it in its present shape. He
had a strong wish that the schools should be so conducted as
to enable all parties to partake of their benefits.
Mr. JOHN SIMI II suggested that the memorial should be
referred to the committee.
The TOWN-CLERK was of opinion that no instruction could
be moved without notice being given.
Mr. BOLTON consented to withdraw the word " instruc-
tion," and to move simply that the memorial be referred to
the education committee.
Mr. AIKIN seconded the motion.
Mr. BIRKETT moved, as an amendment, that it be laid on
the table.
Mr. PARKER seconded the amendment, which was shortly
after withdrawn.
Mr. ROBINSON said lie should support the motion, think-
ing it but courtesy towards the petitioners to have their me-
morial referred.
Mr. Alderman EVANS supported the motion. He thought
it was the duty of the Catholic clergy to have interfered ; that
their interference ought to have been foreseen by the council;
and that it ought not now to be mentioned as an act of im-
propriety on their parts, inasmuch as they had given notice
before-hand on the subject.
Mr. EARLE asked what the clergy of the established church
had done when the schools were originally established by the
reform council ? _ . . .

The MAYOR thought it was not desirable to enter upon
such a discussion at present.
Mr. LLOYD had no objection to the memorial being refer-
red to the committee, as it did not pledge them to alter the
rules.
Mr. MoLs-NEux could have no objection to the memorial
being sent to the committee if any benefit were to be derived
from such a proceeding. He did not see the use of sending
it before the committee. (Hear.) It was, moreover, pre-
mature to say anything with regard to the proceedings in the
schools, as the committee had scarcely commenced working
them as yet. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said that he meant to oppose the motion
that the memorial be referred to the Education Committee,
not from any want of respect towards the memorialists, but
his reason was that the schools were scarcely yet in the posi-
tion in which they were intended to be with regard to the
system of instruction. The Education Committee had only
just got their new masters, and at the present moment they
were utterly unable to speak confidently of how the system
might work. Under these circumstances, it appeared to him
that the council really were not in a position to deal with the
question. He had become a member of the Education
Committee most reluctantly, because he felt the great re-
sponsibility which it involved, and becauseits duties re-
quired time and attention which he could scarcely give, al-
though, with few exceptions, he had attended every meeting
of the committee. His own feeling with regard to this sub-
ject was this,—that if the system which it was proposed to
establish should not meet the objects intended—if it should
not prove to he a comprehensive system—if they really found
that they had obstacles to deal with much more formidable
than in the first instance they were led to suppose, and which
prevented their carrying out that system—he, for one, as a
member of the Education Committee, should, at the proper
time, be ready to come before the council and say so ; but,
until that system had been fully and fairly tried, which he
was free to state had not yet been done, nor was it likely to
be so until three or six months from its commencement at
least should have expired, it did appear to him premature
for any body of men to suggest a new course, and to attempt
to urge it on the Education Committee. As he had stated,
he had gone into the committee reluctantly ; but, as he had
gone there, his intention was to discharge his duty in the
best way he could ; and if he found the system was not as
comprehensive as it should be—if the schools were princi-
pally filled with children from schools attached to churches
which before were supported by the congregations of those
churches, that would not meet his views. To a certain ex-
tent he should wish to know where those children were who
were before in the corporation schools. This was the view
that he took ; and if he could not see at least a portion of
those children instructed there, he should come to the con-
clusion that the schools, whatever his own private opinion
might be, were not the schools which the municipal law
authorised. With the expression of this opinion, he felt
that it was scarcely fair towards the Education Com•
mittee, and perhaps scarcely right, to force on them a
course different to that which they were pursuing. Let
them see first what the plan really was which they were en-
deavouring to establish. If that plan should fail then the
time would have come for them to make a change, and it
would be the duty of the Education Committee to come
boldly before the council and say so, because what they de-
sired to effect was not what required to be concealed. The
more it could be seen, the more it was enquired into, the
better was the plan of education to be established likely to
be ; but whilst he made these remarks with regard to the schools
attached to churches, one or two of which he believed were
about to be given up, it was only fair to state that, although he
conceived the corporation schools so filled would not meet
the object intended, yet there was this fact, that some of these
schools were formed at the period when the council com-
menced the late system, therefore, to a certain extent, the
corporation were the natural schools for those children to go
to. But he said this—if they were only to take the children
of schools which before had been supported by individual
subscription, that that was not the object of the corporation
schools ; therefore, let the Education Committee try the sys-
tem which they had now in hand. He would say to the
council, " Let us carry it out for a certain period, long
enough to give us an opportunity of judging how far the sys-
tem will succeed." Having stated these reasons, he should
feel it his duty, without meaning any disrespect towards
those who had signed it, to oppose the memorial being re-
ferred to the Education Committee, because he wished to be
left free and unfettered to do what was right without the dic-
tation of any set of men. If he could not carry that out he
would come before the council and say so.
Mr. Aims in support of the motion said he had not as yet
heard a word in the way of objection to the motion. On the
contrary, Mr. Gladstone acknowledged that the thing up to
the present moment had not met his expectations, and that
if the same system went on, he would be at liberty to enter-
tain the question.
Mr. BIRKETT expressed his regret for having withdrawn
his amendment, and said he would not do so again.
Mr. Sm au said Mr. Mr Birkett would be a good boy the
next time. In the mean time Mr. Gladstone's amendment
had not been seconded.
Mr. CHILTON then seconded it.
Mr. PARKER regretted very much that Mr. Gladstone had
expressed the sentiments he had on the present occasion.
(Hear, bear.) He could but admire the tact of Mr. Aikin
in availing himself of the mode in which Mr. Gladstone had
expressed himself. But, as conservatives and as protestants,
they had one course to pursue. (Hear, hear.) Their faith
was straightforward. Their duty was not to mark the results
of the measure at present, because it was premature; but
sent to the council as they had been by the constituency of
Liverpool, their duty was to carry out the wishes of that
constituency upon the education question. Before the system
was allowed to have a fair trial, representations were made out-
side doors, and a hold was taken of a memorial, which had
been worded in a way different from what it ought to have
been worded. It called on the council to rescind what they had

been contending for on principle—namely, a sound scrip.,
tural education for the poor of the town. It was preposter-
ous that any memorial of the sort should be received by the
council. He maintained that the conservative party were
acting on sound, constitutional, and protestant principles in
supporting the present system ; it was a question upon which
he would ever take his stand; and he hoped the memorial
would be ordered to lie on the table. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. SANDS denied that Mr. Gladstone ever stated that his
expectations had not been realised.
Mr. GLADSTONE explained. His meaning was this—At
present the Education Committee were not able to say what
would be the success of the system. That was what he in-
tended to say. Of its propriety his own opinion was un-
shaken, but how far it would succeed, so as to secure the
benefits of these Corporation Schools to all classes, as they
were intended, it was, of course, impossible for the Education
Committee to say. He certainly meant that if these schools
were not fully attended—if there were only a hundred scho-
lars in one school, and a hundred in the other, it would then
become the duty of the Education Committee to attempt
some change that would make them so. It would not be
worth while to keep up such au establishment, and to pay the
expenses of masters, mistresses, monitors, and apprentices for
so small an object. The Education Committee wanted to
establish education upon a broad scale, and, as he had said
before, what he intended to state was, that as they had only
just got their new masters, it was impossible to form an
opinion what the success of thei system would be.
Mr. Alderman EVANS said he had never heard a speech in
the council the commencement of which gave him greater
satisfaction than the one he heard from Mr. Gladstone, who
had stated principles in a graphic manner. The crisis re-
ferred to by Mr. Gladstone had, however, arrived already, for
the catholic children were gone ; and who in the world say
that they would ever come back ?
Mr. BRIGHT said the sentiments expressed by Mr. Glad-
stone had done him very great honour. He thought the
Education Committee ought now to adopt a system that
would conciliate the catholics.

Mr. LLOYD thought the council would not be doing their
duty to the Education Committee if they interfered with the
system which was now in course of operation, by referring the
memorial.

Mr. SnANn contended that it was quite unnecessary to re-
fer the memorial to the committee, as they were already alive
to the question.
Mr. BOLTON then replied, after which the council divided,
when there appeared— ,

For the amendment...................... 23
Against it
Majority .....
: : ...... —3
The amendment was consequently carried. The following
members voted in the division :
For it—Messrs. Shand, Copeland, Barton, Blundell,
Sands, Rae, Aspinall, Toulmin, Wcod, Birkett, Gladstone,
Proctor, Lloyd, Kilshaw, Parker, Jones. jun., A. Smith,
jun., Houghton, Nicol, Chilton, Molyneux, Crook, and the
Mayor.
Against it—Messrs. Thornhill, Preston, H. Holmes,
Mellor, Bolton, Aikin, Bright, Yates, Robinson, H. Law-
rence, J. Smith, Jordan, Mather, Buller, Freme, Evans,
Barclay, Earle, Moon, and Turner.

ADDRESSES TO THE QUERN, PRINCE ALBERT, AND TER

DUCUESS OF KENT.

Mr. LLOYD moved the adoption of the following congra-
tulatory addresses to the Queen, Prince Albert, and the
Duchess of Kent, on the birth of an heir apparent to the
throne of these realms : _ _ .

" To Her Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria.
" The dutiful and loyal address of the Mayor, Aldermen,
and Burgesses of the borough of Liverpool.
" May it please your Majesty,—We, the mayor, aldermen,
and burgesses approach, with feelings of the most loyal at-
tachment to your Majesty's person, to offer our heartfelt
congratulations on the great and joyful event of the birth of
a prince, the heir apparent to the throne of this realm.
" We pray the Almighty Ruler of Princes to preserve the
health of his royal highness, and to bestow on your Majesty
and your illustrious consort a long life of happiness and
prosperity ; and that He may enable your Majesty and your
royal consort to direct the education of the heir apparent,
and to witness matured in his mind those sound principles
which will make his reign a blessing to a free and loyal
people.
" And we pray that the present distress, which presses
heavily upon many of our fellow-subjects, may be of tempo-
rary duration ; and that Divine Providence may continue to
watch over your Majesty's subjects, and that they may grate-
fully appreciate the many blessings this most favoured coun-
try enjoys ; and that we may remain a dutiful and loyal peo-
ple, justly proud of the virtues which grace your Majesty s
person and government.
" Give❑ under the common seal, the 9th of March,lB42.”

" To His Royal Highness Prince Albert, Duke of Saxe

oburg and Gotha

" The dutiful address of the Mayor, Aldermen,and Burgesses
of the borough of Liverpool.
" May it please your Royal Higness,—We, the mayor,
aldermen, and burgesses, beg to offer to your royal highness
our sincere congratulations on the great and happy event of
the birth of a son, heir apparent to the throne of this realm,
which has still more endeared your royal highness to a dutiful
and loyal people.
" We pray for the blessing of God on our infant prince,
and that it may please the Almighty to grant to her Majesty
and to your royal highness a long, prosperous, and happy life,
and that both may see, in full maturity, the virtues of his
parents implanted in the heart of the heir apparent.—Give❑
under the common seal, the 9th of March, 1812."

" To Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent.
" The respectful address of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Bur-
gesses of the borough of Liverpool.
" May it please your Royal Highness,—we, the mayor,
aldermen, and burgesses, beg to be allowed to approach your
royal highness with the warmest and most heartfelt congra-
tulations on the joyful event of a birth of a prince, heir ap-

parent to her Majesty's throne.
we pray that the Almighty protection may be extended
to the royal infant, and that he may grow up in health and
strength, the comfort and delight of your royal highness ;
that the lives of your daughter, our most gracious Majesty,
and her illustrious consort, may be spared for many years to
bless a loyal and dutiful people ;and that when it shall please
the Almighty to call their son to the anxious cares of govern-
ment, the virtues of his royal parents may be found in him
adorning 'a reign of honour and prosperity, as the monarch
of this great empire.—Given under the common seal, 9th of

March,-1842."
The addresses were adopted.
PRIVATE BILLS.
The TOWN-CLERK reported on the private bills of the
council with the view of obtaining any directions thereon be-
fore going into committee of the Commons. He said he bad
been advised that morning that their bills had all passed the
standing orders committee ; but up to the termination of the
Easter holidays the bills would be in the power of the council
for any amendments which might be considered advisable.
With reference to the clause regarding marine store dealers,
he proposed to add, that " nothing in the act should apply to
ship-chandlers and rope-makers."
Mr. PARKER asked what was the proposed fee with regard
to marine store dealers taking out licenses?
The TOWN-CLERK said it was any sum not exceeding 20s.
He thought the 20s. might be reduced to 108., and that 2s.

6d. would probably be sufficient.
Mr. BIRKETT called attention to clauses respecting lorries,
and the building of houses with beams.
The TOWN-CLERK promised to consider the subjects with
Mr. Birkett.
Mr. LLOYD called attention to some clauses which refer to
the powers of the corporation as to the taking of property.
The TOWN-CLERK said it would be for the Finance Com-
mittee to alter the clauses in question if considered unjust.
The town-clerk then called attention to some alterations
which had been made in the interment clauses with
i the con-
sent of Rector Brooks, and entered at some length nto a de-
scription of the alterations which had been made in the
clauses.
Mr. GLADSTONE said it was right that the public should
know that the alterations had been made with the consent of

Mr. Rector Brooks.
Mr. LLOYD in allusion to the Borough Court Bill, said it
was much to be regretted that the clause bad been withdrawn
which gave a power to this borough to arrest absconding
debtors. That part of the bill would have been an immense
boon to the country. When it was considered that this port
was the great outlet to America, and the facilities for escape
afforded by steam communication were so great, the council
ought to use every means to give the borough court the same
Power in this respect that the superior courts had. Two
cases of this description had come within his own knowledge
within the last fortnight. The parties had to send their affi-
davits to London, then to go before a judge, and then when
process was issued, strangely enough it had to go to Preston
(this being a county palatine) before it came to Liverpool,
consequently two or three days were lost whilst the debtor
could come by railway from Manchester just an hour or two
before the steamer sailed. He regretted this, and he should
be sorry if the price they were to pay for the bill, should he
to lose one half of the advantage that was to be got by the
certiorari clause. But Liverpool when going to such liberal
expense in providing accommodations for the Judges and the
professional gentlemen who attended the assizes here, ought
not to be treated exactly in the manner in which it was by
the officers of the court at Preston. They had not yet had
the condescension to bring any of their offices here, al-
though they took them to Lancaster, and at the foot of the
circular announcing the assizes it was always stated, " the
business of the public offices will be transacted at Preston
during the assizes." He named this to put the council in
possession of the fact, that although they might go to great
expence in building assize courts, after they had done so,
most of the business might be taken to Manchester or to the
, office at Preston. _ . . .

The Tows; CLERK also pointed out the inconveniences
and annoyances of the present system, and recommended
that petitions be presented for an amendment. It would be
better if the law for the detection of absconding debtors
were applicable to all seaports.
Mr. Alderman EvaNa would avail himself of this oppor-
tunity of expressing the satisfaction with which he had heard
Mr. Lloyd. He had to-day heard him put forward claims
for this town which he (Mr. Evans) had often, but in a more
feeble way, endeavoured to enforce. It was clear that in
this port we ought to have the most ample local jurisdiction.
With regard to the reason of our not having it, he believed
it arose from an unwarrantable timidity which had ever ex-
isted here. We heard, "if you attempt this you will have
the bar, and the bench, and everything against you ;" but it
had fallen within his experience in parliament, which, on
account of council and dock business was not small, to know
quite well the great influence which Liverpool had when Li-
verpool was represented in London by enlightened and ener-
getic deputations. It was quite notorious in both houses of
parliament that a Liverpool object, and above all a Liverpool
opposition, was one of the most formidable that ever came
before them. We had great weight and influence, and great
power if we had only the courage to exercise it. He recol-
lected going up with another gentleman as a deputation to
government to endeavour to preserve the patronage of the
council in. the officers of the jail, which the home department
were very kindly going to take away from the council who
paid all the expense of it; and he believed that at that time
even the Town-clerk himself was under the influence of ap-
prehensions that they would get into a quarrel with the Home
Office. Why, the Home Office would have gone on with it
had it not been for the energetic efforts that were made, and
the deputation found all their requests yielded when they
applied all the requisite force. With regard to absconding
debtors he would mention a case of his own. A man was
indebted to him here, and he received a hint from another
quarter that he was going to leave, he did not know when.
When he asked his attorney about it, " Oh," said he, " You
cannot meddle with him without you get a judge's order."
" And how long will that take ?" " Ten days" was the
reply. Why, the man might have been half over Europe in
that time. This port was the outlet and inlet for the greatest
number of that description of people who were likely to com-
mit fraud upon others, and therefore we ought to possess in
ourselves all the powers necessary to get summary redress.
He hoped that Liverpool hereafter would assume a tone, and
follow it up, which be had no question would result in success
in having her rights and consequence admitted.
It was then understood that application should be made
to extend the power of arresting absconding debtors to all
sea ports