The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-06-03 00:00:00

views on the subject, that I shall not take up your time with
any detail. Ido not impute improper motives to any man,
but I have a right to make a remark on facts as they come
before me. I believe it was not Mr. Earle's intention that
the Catholics should be driven out, but nothing would more
certainly have the effect of causing them to leave as the insi-
dious return now sought for.
Mr. EARLE.—lnsidious! . . .

Mr. BIRKETT.—I have no objection to withdraw the word,
as I wish not to use any term offensive to any gentleman.
(Hear, hear.) It has been said by Mr. Lawrence that if the
names be not given little harm will be done ' • but let me tell
him that if the numbers be given, sea and land will be
compassed to find out their names. (Hear.) If ten catholics
only be in the schools, and they are withdrawn, you will be
depriving them of a sound, religious education.
Mr. EvANs.—lt is quite unworthy of the committee and
council to withhold the information.

Mr. GLADSTONE.—I am sorry, sir, that I was not in the
room when some allusion was made to what fell from me at
the meeting of the council some time ago ; but, in order to
prevent any wrong impressions, I may, perhaps, be allowed
to state what it was I then expressed with regard to the
schools. It was this : I think I said that unless the schools
were filled by all denominations (I did not mean to contend
for the proportions, but that they should be generally avail-
able) I should think it necessary to propose some change that
should have that effect. I stated at the same time that I did
not think it would be sufficient that the schools should be
filled with one class only, nor do I think so now. I should
not consider that a proof of their being successful, becayse it
was the intention, whether right or wrong, of parliament, as
far as I understood the subject, that the funds of the corpo-
ration should be made available, without distinction, to all
classes. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, to that extent, I should
be desirous to propose some change; but I am not prepared
to say what that change should be ; I should consider that it
ought to admit all those who differ in opinion with myself.
But I must state to the council, that if they are going to
treasure up words of mine, not perhaps of much importance,
relative to a change, they must pursue, to some extent, a
different course. I deem it essential for a fair trial of the
present system that this constant excitement about the pre-
sent system should cease. (Hear.) As far as 1 am con-
cerned, I pledge myself that unless the schools are made
useful to all classes, that I for one will either bring forward
such a change as I think ought to meet the wishes of all
classes, or else I will retire from the Education Committee.
Mr. SANDS.—I am sorry I did not state all that Mr. Glad-
stone has expressed. But suppose the schools were now
filled, are we to displace church people, and Wesleyans, and
others, in order to adjust the proportions ? (No, no.) Let
it be recollected that we open the schools for all classes at
this moment—that we invite all, and that we reject none.
(Hear, hear.) _ _

Mr. AlKlN.—Whose fault is it that the general question has
not been opened ?
Mr. JOHN SMITH.—I don't see any objection to give the
returns stating the numbers of all denominations.
Mr. HARBORD.—There is nothing secret in the matter.
Our official books have the professions of all the children re-
corded. We deemed it most prudent not to give publicity to
them every month, thinking it would raise disputation here,
but our books will give all that may be required to any
gentleman who wishes to obtain information.
Mr. JORDAN.—The statement just made by Mr. Glad-
stone does him infinite credit. I wish all the gentlemen of
the same party would do the same.
Mr. HODGSON.—I wish the fact to be plainly understood
that we exclude no person from the school. We have adopted
a system that gives a Christian and a Bible education, and
we cannot alter that system to accommodate either one party
or the ether. (Hear, hear.) We cannot change our plans
or consent to give an unsound education ; and therefore it is
a delusion to look forward to any perio for a change, be-
cause whether there is one child in the schools or whether
they are full, the plan cannot be changed. (Hear, hear.) I
differ wholly from the explanation given by Mr. Gladstone.
The amendment was then worded as follows :—" That the
Education Committee be requested to make a monthly re-
turn of the number of children of the several religious de-
nominations;" and the council having divided upon it the
numbers were—
For it
Against it 2O
The amendment was consequently carried. The following
members voted in the division.

For—Messrs. R. Houghton, Thornhill, Preston, Henry
Holmes, J. Holmes, Bolton, Aikin, Bright, Priestley, Yates,
Robinson, Gladstone, Parker, J. Smith, G. H. Lawrence,
Jordan, Platt, Mather, Holt, Evans, Barclay, Earle, and
Turner.

Against—Messrs. Shaw, Hodgson, Isaac Holmes, Cope-
land, Edwards, Sands, Rae, Aspinall, Wood, Birkett, Lloyd,
Rigby, Kilshaw, Jones, jun., Brassey, Harbord, Bramley-
Moore, Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor.
Mr. YATEs thought it right to mention that Mr. Holmes
had been engaged in the writing department of the Mechanics'
Institution, where he gave very great satisfaction. His at-
tention was exemplary, and his attendance all that could be
wished. (Hear, hear.) He was then in a more intellectual
department, where he was not very satisfactory. (Oh ! and
laughter.) He (Mr. Yates) said this, in order that the com-
mittee might pay attention to it, while Holmes was on trial
in the schools.

The proceedings were then confirmed.
GARDENS' COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Gardens' Committee having been
read,
Mr. ROBINSON thought there had been some dereliction of
duty on the part of the chairman of the committee in not having
called the attention of the council to the poaching which had
been carried on at the Mount Gardens. (Great laughter.)
He thought some notice ought to have been taken of it in the
proceedings. (Continued laughter.)
Mr: JORDAN.—I am sorry I am not able to go into a va-
riety of things, there were so many reports afloat with respect
to the actors in that business.
Mr. Al.kTHEß.—What business?

Mr. JORDAN.—About the gardens. (A laugh.) A certain
journal mentioned my name about it, but I say I have no
connection either directly or indirectly with allowing any
person to go to the gardens, and my name has been very im-
properly used, and among the rest that a certain lady was in
a delicate situation and wanted a rook-pie. (Great laughter.)
The MAYOR.—That was the excuse.
Mr. JORDAN.—Yes, sir ; but not on my part.
The proceedings were confirmed.
CHURCH-EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of the Church Expenditure Committee
were read and confirmed.

BOROUGH-COURT COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Borough Court and Court of Re-
quests' Committee having been read,
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said, the proceedings had referred
to some difference with Messrs. Ross and Nightingale. He
asked the nature of the difference in question?
Mr. LLOYD, in the absence of the Chairman, said, there
would be a report from the committee. and that it would be
better to wait until that report was before the council.
The proceedings were accordingly confirmed.
HEALTH COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of the Health Committee were read and
confirmed.

COURTS OF LAW COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Courts of Law Committee, com-
prising a request from Mr. Elmes, architect, to know
whether they would retain the model of the new Assize
Courts at the price he had paid for it, namely, £lOO, having
been read,
Mr. EARLE moved their confirmation. The model, he
said, was a beautiful production of art, and a London archi-
tect had stated the day before that the new Court-house
would be one of the best and most chaste buildings in the

country.
Mr. EVANS objected to the payment of £lOO for the
model. He should expect it as a present from the architect,
whose commission on the transaction would be a little for-

tune.
Mr. EARLE said, that few of themselves, when they got a
commission on a cargo of sugar, coffee, or tobacco, would
give anything away. (A laugh.) It was not fair, therefore,
that they should expect a man l►ke Mr. Elmes to give them
£lOO.
Mr. EvaNs said, as Mr. Earle had gone into mercantile
analogy, that Mr. Elmes ought to leave the council the
model in the manner that merchants gave each other sam-
ples. (Renewed laughter.)
Mr. MATHER.—That's a good hit!
Mr. EVANS said that Mr. Elmes would disappoint him if
he accepted £lOO, or anything, for it.
Mr. EARLE said that Mr. Elmes would rather have it
himself than dispose of it to the corporation.
Mr. EVANS moved that the money be not paid for the
model, but that it be returned to the architect. If they bad
the original he thought it quite enough.
Mr. AIKIN was quite willing that he should be allowed to
take it back again. The state of the corporation funds, and
the general distress of the country would not allow them to
expend the sum of £lOO upon a toy.
Mr. HODGSON hoped they would accept and pay for it.
Mr. EARLE said they had paid £lOO for a model of the
Customhouse.
Mr. AnclN wished they had been content with the model
in that instance. (A laugh.)
The council divided upon the amendment, when there ap-
peared—_

For it Zu
Against it
The amendment was consequently carried, and the pro-
ceedings were confirmed. The following members voted in
the division :
For—Messrs. Isaac Holmes, Thornhill, Preston, Copeland,
H. Holmes, Sands, Bolton, Aikin, Bright, Yates, Robinson,
Wood, Birkett, Gladstone, Bushell, Brassey, Platt, Mather,
Holt, and Evans.
Against—Messrs. Shaw, Hodgson, R. Houghton, Edwards,
Rae, Priestley, Cooper, Lloyd, Parker, Jones, jun., G. H.
Lawrence,Jordan, Harbord, Earle, Turner, Bramley-Moor e,
Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor.
DOCK COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Dock Committee having been read,
Mr. ButitErr asked whether any alterations had been
made as to the size and construction of the dock warehouses ?
Mr. SANDS replied in th% negative, with a view to give
greater space for the loading of carts, there would be less
space for the warehouses ; but nothing contrary to the act
had been attempted.
After some further conversation, the proceedings were
confirmed.