The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-04-08 00:00:00

was unrestricted by the committee, to exercise his honest
opinion upon the subject ; and he trusted he had done so,
without having occasion, or giving occasion, to get himself
or the committee out of the mire. There was not one of
parents or the apprentices who would not say that upon
every occasion when they met him, they were treated with
the greatest courtesy—time was sacrificed in explanations,
temper was, under trying circumstances, controlled. He
defied them to say that he had used one unpleasant word to-
wards them, or that they had not been treated with as much
respect as if they had been a deputation from the core-mil of
education acting on the part of the legislature. (Hear.) The
next thing he had to refer to was this; he received a note,
for the first time on this subject, from Mr. Berry, a solicitor
in Liverpool, after the draft of the assignment had been in
the possession of each of the parties for some days. was
delivered on the 19th, and on the 23rd he received the note
as follows :

" Fergie to Stone.
" I return this draft, approved with a slight alteration,
making it agree with the terms of the original indenture. I
am instructed also by Mr. Cunningham, Mr. M`Avoy, Mr.
Duncan, and Mr. Stock to act on their behalf in this matter,
and to inform you they are quite willing to enter into an
assignment on the terms in the original indenture. As all the
cases are, I believe, similar, it will save trouble if this draft
be considered as approved on behalf of all. I conclude the
original indentures are the same in all the cases; if not, I
shall be obliged by copies of such as differ from Mr.
Fergie's."
He referred to the draft, and he found it was altered to this
effect—that the new head master should be bound to teach
the apprentices in the art or mystery of a teacher in the va-
rious branches of education as fully and as effectually as were
taught by the said R. J. Nelson in the said North Corpora-
tion School. That, in his opinion, was quite contrary to the
terms of the original indentures. He, therefore, on the 24th,
wrote the following reply to Mr. Berry :
" I have given every possible consideration to your altera-
tions in the draft assignment of Thomas Francis Fergie to
the new Head Master of the North Corporation School ; but
it appears to me that these alterations, instead of making the
draft agree with the terms of the original indenture, make
that draft materially to differ from the terms of the original
indenture. I think the draft, without the alterations, cor-
rectly expressed those terms.
" I cannot, therefore, approve of the alterations ; and I
again transmit the draft that the subject may have any fur-
ther consideration that you may deem proper."
Now here, at the most, was a difference of opinion between
two solicitors. Mr. Berry thought he was right, and he
(the town-clerk) thought he was right. Mr. Berry, how-
ever, did not reply to his opinion on the alterations given in
that letter ; and up to this moment, the 6th of April, he had
had no communication with Mr. Berry on the subject of the
assignment. But he did receive subsequently a letter from
Mr. Berry, which called forth the letter of the29th March. in
which he gave an explanation, that in a short compass would
put the council in possession of all the facts. The letter he
received from Mr. Berry on the /gni March was as follows :
" Fergie to Slone.
"I am informed that the apprentices have been this morn-
ing forcibly turned out of the school by Mr. Stone's direc-
tion. I cannot imagine this proceeding can be taken by your
advice, although you are, I presume, and have been, acting
on behalf of Mr. Stone in this matter. Mr. Fergie, and all
the others for whom 1 act, have signified their wish to have
the indentures assigned on the terms in the original inden-
tures, which are the terms proposed by you on behalf of the
corporation and Mr. Stone. I shall be glad to know from
you if it is Mr. Stone's intention to persevere in excluding
the boys from the school. They are quite willing to give
their attendance at all reasonable times."
He did not understand from this that his original draft was

agreed to ; but nothing beyond this had been received con-
taining a syllable of answer to the opinion he (the town-
clerk) gave upon the effect of the alterations of the draft. That

letter being received, his Teiiiy on the day following (the
29th March) was as follows:
" In answer to your letter of yesterday, I have to state
that, when Mr. Fergie and the other parents, with the appren-
tices, met me by appointment, on the 18th instant, Mr. Fer-
gie, for himself and his son, declared, I will not cancel the
indenture, nor execute the assignment, unless the corporation
engage a proper person to teach any son exactly as Mr. Nel-
son taught him, and Mr. Stone is not that person; he is not
capable.' This was carefully noted down at the time, read
over to Mr. Fergie, and confirmed by him, and afterwards it
was adopted by each of the other apprentices and his parent.
" Upon this the committee came to the resolution, that
the attendance at the schools of the apprentices who had re-
fused to be assigned to Mr. Stones should be disallowed.
" This I communicated, by a letter, on the 19th instant,
as follows :
" You have been distinctly apprised that the corporation
have been (as they still are) willing to join in an assignment
of your son's indenture of apprenticeship to the new head
master, Mr. Stone; which deed would be prepared in the
terms of the original indenture, and according to the proviso
therein for such assignment, upon a new head master being
appointed by the council.
" As your son, acting with your approbation, has declared
his refusal to be assigned to Mr. Stone, I am directed by the
Education Committee of the Council to state, that it neces-
sarily follows that your son's attendance at the school cannot,
under these circumstances, be continued.'
" As however a draft assignment had been applied for, one
was at the same time transmitted by me to each party, with
a note as follows :
" As you require the draft assignment of your son's in-
denture, I send it herewith, willing to give every information,
though after your son's refusal to be assigned to Mr. Stone,
it cannot be of much value, unless that determination be
altered."
" On the 23rd instant, you returned to me the draft
assignment, with alterations which I could not approve of,
and the 24th 1 returned it to you as follows :
" ' I have given every possible consideration to your alter-
ations in the draft assignment of Thomas Francis Fergie, to
the new head master of the North Corporation School; but
it appears to me that these alterations, instead of making
the draft agree with the terms of the original indenture, make
that draft materially to differ from the terms of the original
indenture. I think the draft, without the alterations, cor-
rectly expressed those terms.
" I cannot therefore approve of the alterations; and I
again transmit the draft that the subject may have any fur-
ther consideration that you may deem proper.'
" Under these circumstances, the relation of master and
apprentice stands, at least, at present repudiated by your
clients ; and this state of things, until it is altered by an as-
signment in terms correctly settled, must continue ; and
pending it, it is neither proper, nor can it answer any good
purpose, for the young men to attend the school, and it cer-
tainly will not be allowed. But to relieve you and them, you
are quite at liberty to consider such attendance as daily ten-
dered and disallowed, and that no omission therein shall pre-
judice the rights of any party.
This letter would show that every pains had been taken by
him to put the whole case before the parties, and that by re-
turning the draft the door was not yet closed against their
reconsideration.
Mr. Alderman EVANS complained of its being now set up
that the apprentices were bound to the establishment and
not to the master.
The TowN-CLERK.--That is with regard to the education
to be taught them.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—And therefore the young men go
and make the demand upon the establishment.
The TOWN-CLERK.—Put it so; but who is to receive the
demand of the young men? The committee are not to
be there for the government of these young men ; but my
observations as to their being bound to the establishment
were made with another view.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—The young men go there to make
a legal tender of their services.
The TowN-Ceen.K.—You will see how I deal with that.
I say " Go on, if you like, but I will relieve you from the
trouble of going there every day : we will consider the
tender as made every day, without prejudice to the rights of
any party." Now, if it should be found that he was wrong in
his law as to the effect of the assignment he could not help
it : but he thought that if Mr. Alderman Earle had been pun
in possession of his letter of the 29th of March it would
have altered his apprehension of the case.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I do not agree with you, Mr.
Town-clerk.
Mr. ASPINALL here suggested an adjournment, as it was
past three o'clock, but it was overruled.
Mr. YATES said it often happened that the state of the
law was one thing, and justice another, and he thought there
was a singular example of it on this occasion. He did not
mean to dispute the law of the Town-clerk, but he would say
this, that it was agreed, when the apprentices were bound,
that they should be taught mathematics, classics, algebra,
and geometry.
Mr. GLADSTONE said it never was.
Mr. YATES said at all events it was agreed that they should
receive an education to fit them for ushers in any school iu
England ; and it was a great injustice that they should be
prevented from learning those things and be taught only the
very ordinary education given in the corporation schools.
But suppose he said nothing further upon the subject, there
were laws far higher than the laws of England ; there were
the laws of God, and those laws had, in this instance, been
grosslya nd voluntarily infringed upon. (Hear.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Certainly they have.
Mr. YATES, in continuation, said, he did not know what
were the opinions of the gentlemen of the Education Com-
mittee respecting the laws of the Almighty. Let them judge
for themselves, as he was there to judge for himself, what in-
fluence those laws had upon them : but it was agreed on all
hands that when they were bound, as stated by the Town-
clerk, to the corporation, that their liberty of conscience
should never be violated. But instead of this they were told
that they must learn the protestant catechism, although they
were Roman catholics. (Cries of " No, no.") It was as-
serted by Mr. Fergie that his son had been told they must
teach the catechism to other boys. (" No, no.") Well,
let that be disproved ; he was merely referring to the docu-
ment read by Mr. Earle. He knew it was a rule that they
should not be compelled to go to church ; but the children
had been told that although they were Roman catholics, they
mush teach the Church Catechism. Now this was not fair,
and it was contrary to their rights. '
Mr. BIRKETT said Mr. Yates was speaking rather to the
assignment than the memorial.
Mr. Alderman is the whole memorial he is
speaking to.
Mr. YATES.—It is to the whole memorial I am speaking.
Mr. MOLYNEUX said, Fergie, the father of one of the ap-
prentices, had told him that he was a churchman.
Mr. YATES said, the motion was that the memorial be re-
ferred to the Education Committee, and that they report
thereon. He was therefore perfectly regular in referring to
what it contained. He then proceeded to eulogise the con-
duct of the apprentices in refusing to violate their consci-
ences ; and said they had even been driven from the schools
with violence. (No, no.) But it was not to he wondered at
that what was commenced in injustice should terminate in
oppression and tyranny. _
The TOWN-CLERK said, the violence" used was just
such gentle violence as was usuarin such cases.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE did not wish to provoke any oppo-
sition, but his own opinion was that the Education Com-
mittee had, very properly, acted upon the indentures, which
former apprentices had entered into. They only wished to
substitute one man's name for another man's name; beyond
that they did not, and had no wish, to go ; and it was rather
too much to say, that because a former master had taught the
apprentices algebra, and so on, (which were not in the inden-
tures,) the committee were bound to teach them algebra, and
that, too, in a charity school. They should teach them as
much of the trade and occupation of a teacher in such a
school as that they were learning in, and nothing beyond
could be necessary. But he really believed this seas not the
great difficulty now. The apprentices, when brought before
the committee, were asked whether they would con-
tinue in the schools, and they one and all declined to do so.
They had a sense of the difficulties which surrounded them ;
they did not know whether Mr. Stone understood algebra,
and so on, but they knew that the system of education was
so changed, that they would have great difficulty in agreeing
to it, and they therefore said they would rather have their
indentures cancelled. But out of doors they fell in with
other company. They were told that this would be a de-
lightful handle and occasion for display in the Town-coun-
cil; that it would be a fair source of perpetual embarrass-
ment and annoyance, and enable them to go on, week after
week, and month after month, frustrating the views of the
majority of the council. It was upon this ground alone that
the memorial which had been read was brought before the
council. There might be some little difference in Fergie's
case; but even if the children were accepted, and the inden-
tures were transferred, the next step would be one of the
greatest difficulty, and he really thought it would be far
wiser for the committee to compensate them and cancel their
indentures. The children felt that, and the council never
could pass any rule that should enforce a restraint upon those
who were Roman Catholics. But he did beg and pray the
minority not to go on with this continual annoyance of the