The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-05-02 00:00:00

.—At the,
Per)" ' bid ,
the increase of
service, Si bull. ~ as
Is @dice 'cuticles „I pay u.
cieeftiderod in that way, la Frolics . .. . part .
.1W gatiosal debt of that country.. It was his with le
blii, the attire regclations of the service as they at
' • stood, 91. would not alter any of the claims or
of paying them. He would not interfere with
the oil for exchanging from half pay to full pay.
• se sew modes of selling ont..-.4lnder the
• 110160ay and petitions was also iodide* the
Zill
seperannuatpd naval and military allowance. and
•le head extended the new measure which ire was
Owlet to introduce. He proposed that the emulous sad
alto sauces new charged on Alie Consolidated Fend,.
whickamounted to 4or 500,0001. a yeer should also
come under the new regulation ; it was even question-
able whether this eons ought to be charged at ill el this
fond.. The provision for the Royal Family. which was
given to these illustrious individuals to support the rank
and splendour *Which became their high station, as well
as those sums given to the Crown to enable it to exer-
cise its munideepee, which were charged on the Conso-
lidated Fund, were such as in their nature, he thought,
ought to be excluded from any regulation of the nature
ttelsod to_ propose, because if they were brought under
it, it would tie up the bounty of the Crown. He also
meant to exclude these whose claims worsen the 44 per 1
cents. 'However, the propriety of these exelusiens would
be. hereafter open to discussion. By the exclusion of
there charges, the sum under consideration would be
wheat &MAW. It was a sum vague and fluctuating
in its astute, In coasequesse of the death of aural
aml military men, and pensions which might yet arise.
Bet siese,opol. approximated the real sum. The
acidities was founded-upon a table chewing the vit.'
riatios to be expected to take place npoii an annuity
on lives, (pendia on a retura of the easialities is a
indulger of 13,000 lives, Which' number composed
about one quarter part of Mir to come under this ar.
emirate's', tire Retail leer of whom 'creeds
60,000.. There would be ,pi_
annual decrement in
that manlier till it becsemajitsally extinct. It was
nit improbable that the age of some might be pre-
tended to 60 or 70 Years ; however, these were rare
insisaces. On the whole it was concluded that at the.
end of fortysve years the sum tole paid by the con.
tractors would not amount 'nasally to more than
306,6791., did that could not be expected to cootinue
long, from• the age of the annuitants. As officers on-
hell:fay were liable to be pet on duty in the event of
war, to be sent to foreign climates, and thus be et-
posed to loss of life, aid as contingencies might arise
for *Whim compensation could be given, be thought
it. would. be' a -great hardship on the individuals to
hive thccontract swede hr soy other way than that
proposed. in. any *thee *ode it would give au oppor-
tunity-of profit on tbe en', baud which Paeliatueat
could not suletioa. •••Als the law annuities terminated
in 38 yearw -it would ho-impredeet thit the contract
shield terminate in lesetbar, seeds yeses 'after, se It
would be a rest lecarrenlosee if both expired at the
same time: Tile ritlis wield,- by' this arrangemeat,
have a great Veering for ifteewyears ; bat the
.ccastreetiog parties Would lose airing that 'period.
Th could norete whatobjection Piillatied could have
to eecogeise this debt aisd fund It; lige whatever way
the payment of It Weddle proetllikt ifor.it was sot
intended Hitt if ebottfd have say • reference to the
present Sinkleg•Peod:' The piintipte4hat these an-
nettles wire Wow ti" art the debt tirtbe State could
hvidir bet hided; tad a; tact ought idlie provided
Ur: A street Walibit Ithicb jxstlfiold titt principle was
SIIS adore 'piths chaise which took 'plaii sibeetbese
"Mar
ks jettf Ento:4l." which
her duration of
the *Wiwi; alifilhquiclefektitti didelthis coon-
ti7 Side; hid itierritedlte4 Aii4epfq their preseut
largehunsignC4 P4eviniiiftel79ft, they amounted only
to", 880,0001., es appeirir bYtlie.O.ditort • of the Pi-
nancetorainittre which the ssl"-ore they mounted
to s,ooo,oool.—partlybrdmitteresse of the number
ofleavor aid allitery Wu Misployad.'.aid partly by
the dsorellberal allowances sow' itsoft. 'which' extend
to i 'variety of easel nit then pturiaell;ler• &Wier,
'were not the entitled to pertilgese.. illehe 'ex traordi-
tasty that:gist, Wlrevre out of theiset war, were in-
telded tote eog gitXt ' fls&setireee of terse who risked
their lives for Diepredirratlinsisf- their: deviltry. He
thinight it beeline the widont orPirlitineet to revise
those regalationr.—(Hear; bear.l.ti:vetib 'a view of .
lessening these eharkee. aid It Wtelipon ' that groans! -
tHst the present regulation the' tide* seroly recons•
clouded itself. The CoMusitteewoirld sea t e impro-
pffetp of MO *wail iigletto terfeate details, or mention.' '
ing These terms which Otitettibsentz thttik the parties
eight to serept: It was bitter to Mate theni to act
fdr ibermielveli. He ma motibilik it necessary to enter
Into any farther esplaaation now, at the subject would
crime aisle *entice discussion. "The difikih. be would
defer till then ? but the applkialltio. el 'the measure
wheld, he tlitorght.leproductive of a most beneficial
effect. The Right RAIL Geetleman concluded with
proposing the. first resolution. " Resolved, that it is
the opinion of thit Committee, that the amount of the
Naval 'and hi i atiry pensions and chitin perannuations
mtly be estimated at about 5,000,0001."
' On the resolution being put;
Colonel 'DAVIS said 'he oitjected to the measure t—
fiest,,berliulte at the Moment Ministers came &inn to the
Hones to tell it they were determined to preserve the
Sinking Fund inviolate, they were nultiog a covert at-,
tack on it... They were also acting on the unjust pri itch.
ple*of relieving theinselveast the expense art posterity.
The calculations made were foaqded on deaths alone,
sot tio the oontioitency of war or preilnotion. Ile was
sitisfled, however. the public would oot'gain by the ar-
rangement. On 'looking at the soots to he paid by the
public, and the contractors, it would be found the public
would sustain a toes. ' Portbe last fifteen years the con-
tractors would pay 63,1180,01101.. the total amount the
public would pay Wait period, would be 42,001,000/. In
see sesoud period the centimeters would pity 39,600,000 f. 1
and the public 84,000,0001.; thus, in 'this period, the
pehlis tumid loos 44.4110,10001.. and on the whole they
wield loss 03.400,0001. It was tree there was to he set
Inewinst• this. loss the sum saved iiithe first instance.—
However, bethought the gsblis would gain no advan-
teseedmisthemonsere. Three were his ideas which-be
thorned it his , duty is state, to the House, however
swots lhomasiple es u subject Whisk from its no.
~,i,..: regimes& more SIMS to. Weems Well acqualdid

Me. fillflifT aid be was wiry Woo We little at-
-14 tide Subject bs Hsi thea Oka of the
Eiglibbfefilebk, twideetistiy by Woes !Widowers of the
a=tll. tlowlealleoe. wife °tight so bet pfloeiyally
is: No it wield iteofestid. to 'gorge' is
ditwoofifroot Yiwlwfw a eery bailey ti or woo paid:thew 1
foe who would softy sas ebatoadtiboak' wideb it was

...es that sT(liireinebt would afford
any read. •If the he. payed Rai ACt. it nroett coif
firm the Sisperasneation Act, lid that :bar itself from
revising It. He tosqied theCOMiaittee`wituld 'reject the
Revelation; end be declinedit ills intention to give it
all his oproition in every magi. •
Sir 3. NEWPORT aakedif ,saymais weeld contract
On a sfstem which was directly contrary. to the principle
on which such bargains were usually made. Ile loam-
telned that this measure Was in opposition tithe *loci-
ple of the Sinking Fund: He thought It *child be more
rational that the Commiatioaretef the Sloking Feed
should be theeontractors. 'lbis would avoid a double
machinery and save the bonne to the oontractors, 1
cause whoever contracts will expect a large compeosa-
lion ; besides, these payments must eventually coins
from the public purse. Then as to security ; whatdif-
fleshy will there not be iri providing an 'decimate seen-
rity? Bat this difficulty would be removed by mating
the Comminioners of the Sinking Fend the contracters.
This was the simplest course and ought therefore to los
adopted. However this measure might be cloaked as
a loan, he could not be persuaded that it was not an in-
vasion of the principle of the Sinkhole Fund.
Me. BEAUMONT thought the errangement certainly
tended,to a certain extent, to relieve the Malone. In his
opiiiiwtheChineellor of the Exchequer chewed icon-
risteaey in touching the principle of the Sinking Feed,
but yet so far he agreed with him, and only wished that
he would become more consistent. and do away with the
Sinking Fund altogether. He did not see bow the pre-,
met measure would prevent Geotletimen frentiomiag for-
ward still to diminish the betties of taxes. "
hIARTIN weeld dot be surprise/If the'Meem.
her for Nortlonnbevland (Mr. Beausiont), itilo *ad for
the elmolition of the Sinking Faud.broagist feewardstmb
a measure us the present; bet it was strange to see Goo
who supported it. brisgieg forward a measure which
directly attacked its principle. Why rot'transfer the
Long Atinuities to is longer perio.l than 39 years; Life
Adnuities were granted every day: the fact was, that
Moisten were determined not to give up any of the o 0
beer which they maintained were necessary to be uphold.
to preserve the influence of the Crown in that house,-.
He thought it necessary to oppose the Resolution.
Mr. H. GURNEY said the debt of 6.090.000/. in its
owe nature carried with it a Slaking Fund in the de-,
miss of the parties. Ministers pledged themselves to.
support an librest,* fair 'Sinking Fund ; but the present
Measure, if successful, wield render it nominal end fah,
lacious. If Ministers were &Free to give uptwa mil-
Ben, why netlike it at once from the Sinking Fond.
Mr.T. WILSON deprecated invinfringetnent on the
Weeking Fund:--One of the good 'effects of that Find
that it enabled the wintry to meet any deficiency
i.lcathe revenue without having recourse to new.biudept.,
At the same time he thought the ootition to the vat,
sere came with a very bid grace from Hon. Gentlemen
et the other aide, whO, while they professed themselves
edentates of reduction,• objected to it in the °sly potei-
bit way in which Remold be tarried into ether..
' MF. RICARDO considered the measure as weemplett
infringement of the principle of the Sinking Bends Mss
Rigid Hon. Gentleman told theta these eweillh
' ties formed part of the public debt of the couptrs. ,14
asked him then. whether at the end pf the art years. ty
the operation of his plan, they woad *lal MOM 10
debt, than if they were to take 2,200,001 Y. from the
Sinking Fund. To an invilion of thin' Sinking Food,
be (Mr. R.) bad no objection —he had all along advised'.
it. But it was the greatest ism/widener oe eimepact
his Majesty's Ministers to propose web sxmeepute after
their repeated declarations cm the subject. is was a
part Of the debt which carried a •Siuking-Fund along
with it, and would boally extinguish itself. This plan,
he ratihtained, was 'an utter delditon. was neither
vore nor less than a scheme to take 2,200,0001. from tb
nking,Fuod.

inking._
HUSKISSON was not prepared to contradict the
aaiertioa lint a SAD of 5,000.000/. payable
ale, carried-With it its- own Sinking Find; foe besides'
mortality, there were other casualties which tended toil.
Bat he louse deny that the pies was in any respect as is'
vision of the Siekitig Fond. An annuity for a mines
term of.years. as proposed by his Hight Honouratille
Friend, carried with it the principle'ef its own e,xtled
don. If during %ear we bad. upon a similar priiiclplet
borrowed money for forty-five years, we Shedd net sew'
have hwl that font ',Mat was culled the One per Celt
Annuities. Indeed he was surprised to hear from the
Honourable Member for Porterlingtoo. . that he Cana'
dered the yroposition es invading the principle of the
Sinking nod. His Right Hon. Friend wished to ern.
vide for a charge of 5,000,010/. in the best possible
way; and, if from peculiar circumstances, it had
-arisen to that sum from being only 2,000,000/. he
'would insist that his Right Honourable Friend was at
liberty, consistently with the principles of the Sinking
Fail'Act, td raise- a lean for paying 0ff5,000,000/., taking
care, at the same time, that it should carry with it the
principle of its own estit,ction. Hr. would now illustrate
the ease as he bad done on a previous night. Suppose
we had now a debt of 5,000,0001. in Short Annuities, and
that it was advised to convert all those Short Annuities
into en annuity of forty-five veari. This would be no
invaiionof the Sinking Pawl; it would be only to trans-
fer to posterity part of the burdens which the p
generation was obliged to bear, and there certainly was
nothing to prohibit it. By the adoption of this plan, the
sum of 5,000,0001. would be applicable to the purposes
of the State ; but a larger sum would remain to be
paid in the way of annuities, which however were to
expire after a certain period. This was entirely a
question of expediency, and he thought it only right
that posterity sbOuld be charged with some portion of
our burdens. Is time of war we bad raised taxes to
the amount of 230,000,0001. of which posterity would
draw the advantage.—(Goad cheers from the Oppo-
iiiioa be deniiil that the Sinking
Fund had been established for no other purpose than
the relief of posterity. The R•ght Hun. Gentleman
here entered into a detail of the advantages of the
Sinking Fund. soil said that if it were out for it, tie
measure of reducing the 5 per Cents. could never have
been carried into effect. He deprecated any infractioo
upon it, and if the• House bad three years age amic-
tiooed the proposition for abolishing it, the 5 per
Casts. must still have remained unredeemed. The
whole question was whether they were sot at liberty
to deal with any portion of the debt fur forty-firs
years, so as to provide for its estinctiur within that •
period. He could not by any amens agree in what
had fallen from the Hun. Member fur brisk) (31r;
Ilright), that the plan would affect seperaspnatiens.
!flee power of the Crown with respect to them re-j
waited the same, and the House would bate the sane
power it always had of ineply* 1001 the yoke Oat
Were required. The proposal which leis Right, Hew,
!fiord node to the contractwr ern this—" I will,give
r. as 'tenuity for forty -en. non. if you 'awn tq
!lve ne a unrolls ass to meet • ecriolWebarffet"
oth' mg was note simple or Istelllgilale. It ,winchar

_. . .
ilf, the ..baSilal a aimnild.,,tatt *Atha; bead., tort out
nrulitable to Itha ,contractor,,: we might _to recollect
that., ;be long salinity most cease at the end of.foety-
five ruin, and then we , /boob, be in. the mute state
as before. ,_,4c. flog. Geotlexpan bad‘splal ;that persons,
'geld not contract, if they wen ..to . remain sixteen
years wilhoet deriving eurpetifit..
ki r. ItilltiliT.—A yecy great profit.
Mr. II rsK i SSON coatinited,—He thought it absiud
to say the parties should, advance =miry for, sixteen
years without getting any reinin. This could never be
the case, for the annuities wriuld always be negotiable in
the market. He would again say, that in the prevent
circumstances of the country. they were at perfect liberty,
considering what they had done for posterity, to make
them bear isnot/ part Of the burdens.—(Cbeers from Mr.
Brougham.) He very well understood the meaning of
those cheers. He was not now disposed to argne with
the Hon. andleatned Ileutleisiin .as to the necessity of
the late war; bat admitting as he did its necessity to
have existed, he tbongla we onght only to bear our
average perverting of the expense. He was. however.
happy to seT that there was no probability of oar being.
m call open }gals in haste to make the great samillose
we had ma e, in
,appporting one irmy and navy.
Mr. OILIGIrr and kir. Ilcsnissos3 mutually ex-
plained.
Mr. HUMS eotad not comprehend the object of Ob.'
veimment in bringing forward this proposition. It
appeared that the resolutions had as reference whdt
• ever to the principal transaction. The lion. Member
proceeded to Commeet at some length on the detail,
' of the plan ; observing• that- be.teribirrad it nothltig
but a scheme for Yalsieg e loan by means of deferred
annuities. As to Abs. etperlieney of the measure, it
afforded but a veep piiir pleats support of it. The
Right Hoe. Oentletillil(filt: flustation) bad not an'-
swered the qematioa silo whether,' at the end of '4s
yeart, we shouldd net be more in debt by this sew'
scheme than we should hare been under the • ordinal'
operation of the Stinking Fund.' The 'Hon. Membat
next urged some arguments to show that If the • Oki'
were td be adopted, • the Commissioners for the red4ol
lion of the sot ought. to be the 'Contractors. Her
contended that the measure was a direct attack *gel
the Sinking Fend—that Feed which the Noble Mari
guess opposite end his colleague' bad always pnpi
teased themaelies se anxious to support. To bits(Nle
IL) however, the Sinking Fund appeared a' Men'
mockery; 'and though be was not now supplied whit'
the ddeitmenri to grove the feet, he could still sly.L'orl
unquestionable authority, that had we no Sinkilif
Find, we should ba4beeti 35,000,000 f. less is deli
thee we are et present. If unfortunately this measure'
shoild be sanctionedity the house, he hoped that ft'
would be only on the principle of fair competition, and.
that ao fivornmetrold be shown to particular indirl-
daals to the prejudice of the public at large.— (Heir.
hear.)—ln the* ceurse of some farther obbervatlons.4l
the lion. Member said that he considered the whole
scheme as great a delusion as ever was practised upon
the nubile. c' • t"'".
The Marquees of•LONDONDERRY **snot alit&
surprised to find sole en &tether lido* bast of them-
pions for the Sinking Fund, all ready to fight for it,
thongb had it lot hen got bim and his friends, they
would lung lasfore.Oeir have &strayed it at a blow:
flat the present plea. was any thing bat as Wiwi°a
of the Sinking Fend. That Find now atinoested se
5,000,000[., and the propoeiiion osly went to tie it
qp to cunspow;iliaterest, instead of simple lamest as
heretofore. Its operation on the debt of 500,00004
would not io the slightest degree be greeted is its is-
,fluenre ; on the contrary. it woad be strengthened.
There was a charge of 5,000,00 W. to be provided for.
.end this had been called a debt by his Right Hon.
Priced. It was a deb• in one sense, as it referred to
certain individuals, bat it coati net be considered aa
forming part of debt of the toiletry. The Noble
Marquess advanced several .other arguments I. sup-
port of his plan. . •
Mr. GIIENFELL said he could give no opinion as to
the propriety or impropriety of the measure. until he
knew what was the expense with whiih it was likely to
be attended. .
Lord ERRINGTON said it appeared to Mm. that the
imposed plan could be much better effected by talqag
the renef from the Sinking Fund; bat if that costa not
be done, he should' be glad to get the best terms he
could. Still he thought the diminution of taxation was
'Are only minas by which relief amid be afforded. He
admitted that it was justifiable to /brow a certain part of
our burthens on posterity, and be was sure. that in the
next Session of Parliament a further relief would be re-
quired in the red action of taxation.
Mr. MABERLY conceived that dm projects for sup-
porting public credit by a Sinking Fund were merely vi-
sionary, for while that Sinklag rand was kept up, it
' was necessary to raise our unfunded debt to make up the
1 five millions appropriated to that fund; therefore. in-
stead of a saving, it was adead less to the public. Would
[it not he better then to do away with this fond altoge-
ther, and with the expense attending it? The whole
of the present plan wee nothing better than rah.
' ing a loan to bold ant the appearance of relief, wiles no
other plan of relief emelt' answer any .purpose but
'that of reducing the expenditure. The present was a
mere shifting, shuffling eipediept i and it was high time
the House should put an cad to it.
Mr. W. it' ILLIAbiS said, that to a real Sinking
Fund no man would be more willing to accede than
`'himself. He bad no otbtr idea of a Sinking Fond,
but that of its being a measure to reduce the public
(debt; and as no Sinking Fond hitherto adopted had•
produced that effect, he must oppose any plan of the
kind, which was nothing more than a delusion on
the public. It was oinking more than adding to the
debt of the country ; and by the Resolution then be-
fore the House, they were adding to the public debt.
The only effectual relief that could be gives to the
ioentry ins a diminution of taxation, which would
[enable the farmer to produce the antecede* of life
lat a less ranges,. Tbe filiaisters were sow merely
I beiegieg forward roatod-abotat scheme% which would
only have the effect of throwing the country Into a
state of distress and radio.
lie. J. 4E017 'Oa lath 441 alFarie:Prma th•
Sitating Fend as a delusion. bat be a 'id urges for
the mama measure.. its age Whiell lallati sol go to
Irma posterity sohiely. ,• .
, lie. MONCK said. Oa *is of she pjeK7e, awe—
puce woe. to .rolimre , the eonatry fent A. priest Mir-
As; and though. ha 4$ OK tfartit it she, durst liell•

....• . • • • .
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. ti oflhe telif cepteopla " ilk's deft*
..iesil.ffaal4l .lpt papareillilMo etalMatatiotts bpfore. to
At dm eloie of the lati war, wbea be (dm Motel- mina 1it..41%,4 goy adusitst j‘,l •Npaip . ,ilitee;. ."T .. . .
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pstabestr._.
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the irsereau of the balf-pay of certain brandies of the Dation. He bops& the .11u. Waiter kr. Puss :1,110.11" -Wfa'rlitiNt"...g 4..11 44, ih* .7 I (11! IT'
service, IM bad termed it u a debt of public 'gratitude. (Mr. Correa) womb; Oat be iodated (*glee ep lei, in.- Ige. lk wat,p.osuhip. WO the puty eight it•ei• by Hie, ~
Is sthei easing" Ilia fta of eptteed opieau waa ever tuition of moving for a repeal If tbe Joather Tait, so- cooleul..or .wily wait' -wary little Ela altber.eau. ws ma
emaidetail is that way, la Fraga it fount a . fart o4j•dee the i,lim that thlitiovel, rcutireuteat would altorti Ah?atti pot.,ite wen. tit *boas "I.v" le.present. to
as national debt of that country.. It was Ma with 11l any relief. •If the Haase passed Obis Aet. It *trOatt o t e tli Is. t
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