The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-03-10 00:00:00

•aid to have mid the expression which bad bees
animadverted upon t and be was able to state, after the
Noble Lord's explanations, that all be meant to say was,
that penons might be admonished of the power of the
House to refuse to receive petitions. If the majorities
of that House were to permit motives to be ascribed to
theta, It would open a door to much abuse. If his lion,
Friend agreed to withdraw his motion, be hoped it
would be fully understood that the Honourable Mem-
ber.* opposite admitted that the paragraph in question

was most unwarrantable.
Mr. S. WORTLEY, in reply, noticed the various epi-
thets which bad deep applied to his conduct by the
Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Bennett:) The Hon.
-Mosier said be was " put forward" on this occasion.
He threw back the insinuation. How often he (Mr.
Bennett) might have been put forward, or by whom, hr
knew not. He (Mr. S. Wortley) never had and never
would be put forward by any one. The circumstance
which had occurred in the course of the debate induced
. him to go on with his motion, although lie bad not in-
tended when be first made his motion to bring the un-
fortunate Printer to the Bar of the House. He was not
the person to blame, but he appealed to the House whe-
ther, after the declarations of the Hon. Member for
tihrewsbury, they ought to let this occasion pass by of
expressing their disapprobation of such a gross attack
upon the House. lie was ready, as far as lie was per-
sonally concerned, to give up the motion; and he had
Op objection to do so if Gentlemen on the other side
would admit that the article in (ideation was wrong.
Bnt if they maintained the contrary he should feel it
his ditty to have the Printer brought to the Bar and ad-
tuonished.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that certainly a more
detestable and wicked libel had never bent published
than that which had been brought under the notice of
the Hottse—(Cheers from the Opposition). If be had
himself called the attention of the !louse to this subject,
it was perhaps no more than in the strict discharge of
his public duty lie ought to have dose, and he could
only justify himself from having abstained from taking
that course, by that self-indulgence which might be al-
lowed to a Minister. Now, that it was brought before
the House, however, be mast say, that to impute to him
a desire to prevent the people from exercising the right
of petition,• was not only wicked, but absurd. He cer-
tvinly had Admonished the people not to present Peti-
tions, complaining of grievances, in which that House
could afford them no relief, and such an admonition, he
apprehended was as an act of great kindness to the people
of England. But when lie was made to say, that be
did not wish the people to trouble and take up the due
of the House, such a calumny was evidently framed with
no other view than to operate upon the iporant mind
of the people, au.: be really thought that such a charge
was below contempt. Upon the diecassiou relative to
the conduct of Judge Best, he did say, that the people
ought to be admonished that that House was not a Court
of Appeal, and certainly there could not be a greater
misfortune to individuals, than that they should be mis-
led as to the course of remedy which it was right to
adopt. The admonition was given by him in the true
spirit of the Constitution. and no fair man who heard
him, could impute to him any desire of interfering with
1.:.e general right of petitioning.
Lord A. HAMILTON said, he was as little disposed
to concur with the motion of his Hen. Friend for the ad-
j:yorninent of the House as with that of the Honourable
Centleman opposite, and lie thought the best course
wsuld be to withdraw both motions ; he mast say, how-
ever, that it appeared to him, that an unfair interprets-
t' on was given to the paragraph in question ; and had
hr himself been the writer of that paragraph, lie eboald
have resisted snch an interpretation. There was no as-
c•rtion whatever that the majority had voted for the
admonition to the people, and it wits unfair to argue that
'motives were imputed to them by impliration.
Mr. S. WORTLEY persisted in pressing the ques-
t' on to a 'division.
Mr. HUTCHINSON agreed with the Noble Lord
Lo had just spoken. He had understood the Noble
Lird opposite (Lord Castlereagh) to be reading a
iecturr to the people of England on the impropriety
u;.*
Mr. MONCK did not think this unfortunate para.
graph worth the time and attention of the House.
v hick bad been bestowed upon it. He thought the
p -agrapli so far from casting a stigma upon the ma-
j.,rity of the House, threw the whole blame upon the
Aohle Lord (Lord Castlereagh). It said that the
voe was against the Noble Lord's admonition, and
d:d not at all refer to the majority. There was no
vi”e in or out of that House who did not know the
d Terence between " admonition" and " motion."
mfr coul.l not regard the article complained of as
a:: v thing more than a political squib.—(Hear).
*Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that if the lion.
liSeutleinan, who spoke last, meant to be Counsel for
Or' I.:IHW in question. he was pursuing a very hip-
d:cious line of defence; for the offeuce was much the
saute is the eyes of the House, whether the breach of
privilege were levelled against him as an individual
...leniber, or against a majority of the House.
Mr. CUBWRA espreesed his hope dial the motion
would be withdrawn.
Mi. S. WORTLEY maintained that the libel was
upon the, majority of the House ; and he thought it
wits due to the safety of the House to pursue the

111 otlen.
Iklr. J. P. GRAM' sal& that the Hononrable Gent.
opposite certainly laboured under a great mistake, if
Lc sepposed that there was any intention on the part
of Pie printer of the Newspaper in question to cast a
slat npon the majority of that House, or any dispo- '
sitipu on the part of his Honourable Friends near him
I. aoppart utelsan intentiow, bad it existed. Without
subeecting himself to the Noble Lord's charge Of
ateadisg forward as Counsel. for this Printer, though
troin'What he and every Member of that House knew
of the gederal conduct of the paper in question, there.
fealikblications for which he should more rea.
dill Tess himself to be Cuanseli he must say that
tliii.firapaptt complained of did nut, in Car construc-
tion, admit of the interpretation which bad been as-
It was mated, that the minority voted
admonition of the Noble Lord, not against
ition made to Ihi• House, but against the
alid sentiipents of die Noble Lord, which he
deelacei had, asikabteilly, a material in-

.. ..

..• ~

site
Mr. HOBHOUSE said. he supposed he should be
called a bad Counsel for Mr. Lambert, by the Noble
Lord opposite, from the line of argument which he
should feel it necessary to take. He was aware that his
opinions frequently differed lobo eel° fres the ma)onty
of that House ; and on this occasion he meet say, that In
his opinion the House had no power to do what it pro-
posed to do.
The SPEAKER said, that on a question involving the
privileges of that House he was quite satisfied that it
was not competent to the Honourable Member to ques-
tion the grout* upon which those privileges were main-
tained. He tAted the Honourable Member would feel
that the subject upon which he was about to eater was
of such importance in itself as to deserve a separate con-

sideratiou.
111 r. HOBHOL'SE said, that in obedience to the sug-
gestion from the Chair, he would only observe, that the
paragliaph which was the subject of discussion appeared
to have been totally misapprehended. It was very pos-
sikle that the minority might have voted under an im-
pression which did not at all induenee the votes of the
majority. Nothing whatever was imputed to the ma-
jority. At the same time he must say, that he did not
think this was a fit subject for the deliberation of the
House. It was quite clear, as had been observed by an
llonourable Member, that this was nothing more than a
political squib. Scarcely a day passed in which the
worst motives were not imputed to public men ; and,
for his own part, be was perfectly aware that he wax
constantly held up, by a certain portion of the Press, as
a man desirous of overtorniag the Constitution. Ile
thought the Honourable Member for Yorkshire had better
withdraw his motion, and unconditionally, fur he
really could see nothing wrong in the paragraph com-
plained of. The Honourable Member had asked,
what could be more mischievous than that paragraph ?
Ile would tell him what was infinitely more mischiev-
ous—such motions as that which be 'had brought for-
ward to-night.—(Hear, hear !)—Such motions were cal-
culated to alienate the people from the (louse of Com-
mons ; for they would naturally say, " the House is
ready enough to pass over the grossest offences against
the people :—they will not suffer the conduct of a She-
riff, who opposes the popular rights, to be called in ques-
tion; but they will drag a Printer to the Bar, the mo-
ment an opportunity offers, for infringing the Liberty of
thePie4s."
Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that the question had now
assumed such importance in his mind, that he would not
consent to withdraw it.
Colonel DAVIES spoke in favour of withdrawing the

motions.
Mr. G. BENNET said be hail no objection to with-
draw his motion, if the lion. Member opposite would do
the same by his.
Mr. BARHAM said, that in point of fart what the
Printer had stated was strictly true. It was a literal
fact that the Minority had voted against the admonition
of the Noble Lord. 'Hs ronfessed himself wholly un-
able to discover the impropriety which was imputed to
the Paper in question.
Mr. B. BATHURST contended, that there could
be no other ground for withdrawing the motion than
the admission required, of the passage alluded to being
an unjustifiable attiwk on the majority of that Wine :
if that were admitted, he thought his Hanoprablif
Friend might withdraw the motion solely on the
ground of moderation, and with the hope that the
notice now taken of the matter would repress the
practice in future ; but she complaint could not he
abandoned on the ground that it was unfouuded—L-it
was impossible not to consider the passage a breach
of privilege, but still it was not his desire that the
House should proceed farther, if no attempt to jus-
tify the offence made it necessary to persevere in tl:e
motion.
Sir It. FERGUSON said, that it was ;miler an im-
pression that the Noble Lord had used the words,
that he rose with some warmth to call for au explana-
tion at the time. The explanation of this night, by
the Noble Lord was, however, entirely satisfactory.
He wished the Honourable Member for Yorkshire to
withdraw his motion, for no usau was more jealous of
the privileges of the (louse, and yet he (Sir It. F.)
saw no libel in the paragraph. There was no 3lens-
ber at that side, who v ould countenance a libel on the
House ; but, iu fact, they did nut conceive this to
have been a libel.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, in explanation, that
his complaint was not against the number of petitions
coming there, but that the petitioners preferred com-
plaints on subjects of which the House, in the dis-
charge of its functions, could take no cognizance.
Mr. S. WORTLEY asked. was he to nitiler•tand
that the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury (Slr.
(rennet) would avow the paragraph to be a libel.—
(No, no, from the Opposition). Then lie would pram
it to a division.
After some words from Mr. DENMAN, the floiiat
thee divided on the Amendment, when the nuasbcrs
were,
For adjourning 34
Against it..

-

hlajority against the intendment 121
t:pon our return to the tiallery we found Mr. LAME-.:
TON on his ler, moving the previous iinestipp.. . - ,
Mr. BENNET entreated the Md. Meniber for York-
shire to withdraw his 'notion, as it occupied the Wine of
the House whilst so much pressiug business was
cominon.
Mr.WORTLEY would not consent to withdraw, tw-
ins on the conditions he had stated. Ile understood
these were not to be acceded to.—(No, no, ltom the Op-
position.)
Lord CASTLERF.AGH conceived, the only question
was, whether the offence complained of was a breach of
privilege which ought to be followed up by calling the
Printer of the Morning Chi-oxide to the bar of the
House. He (Lord U.) understood his Hon. Friend was
not anxious to proceed to that extremity, provided this
was not considered a breach of privilege of which the
House not to take notice. The only question be con-
ceived was, whether this was such a breach of privilege
as demanded of the House to be followed up by calling
the Editor to the liar • for his own part, he thought it a
subject that might be very easily accommodated.—
(Hear. beare:)—As there appeared nu disposition ou the
part of the House to press a measure of minishment, he
hoped the Hon. lientieman would withdraw his motion.
(Cries of hear ! and No, no.)
Lord A. HAMILTON contended, that, previous to
calling sprinter to the bar, it had been uniformly the
practice to establish some ground for such a measure.
' If the printer should be brought to the bar on !Howley
I (Lord it. H.) would ask for what Intlhe been brutish;
1 there ? ' The proposition had been made by the Wn.
Uentletian who sat next the Noble Lord, solely because

1'

provoked that
d he was not
Noble lard say
now duds, the printer aught to be
or because his (Lord A. H.'s) friends
at that sideof the Howe would out recant their opinions.
(Cbeers.)---Llf the Hosourable tientleasan had conduct-
ed himself, as is triad In sash easest_he ouht to have
stated the act of ortasiaallty, and caUed for tghe decision
of the House epee that question. The Hon; Gentle-
man ought not to have committed the House to a mea-
sure so obnoxious.--(Heer, bear.)—He trusted the No-
ble Lord and his friends would Jegati ve the question,
on the ground that se grounds for the motion had been
stated, and then would come the question whether the
Editor had been guilty of breach of privilege or not.
He contended, that no case bad been made out which re-
quired that the Editor should be called to the bar.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY iasisted that the usual
abode was to read the paper containing the alleged breach
if
privilege, after which the supposed offender was called
to the Bar of the House, before the question whether
the matter was or was not n breach of privilege had
I been decided.
The SPEAKER declared the Hon. Gentleman who
spoke last was perfectly correct in his explanation of
the usages of the House.
. Dr. LUSHINGTON said, no one could doubt the
present case was a breach of privilege. In this admis-
sion he trusted the lion. Gentleman (Mr. S. Wortley)
had gained his object, and hoped be would therefore
withdraw his motion.
Mr. S. WORTLEY, after a few words, declared his
readiness to comply with the wish of the House. He
hoped that, in the warmth with which he had spoken
during the discussion, no language had fallen from
him which had given offence to 'A u y Honourable Gen-
tleman.
After a few words from Mr. I..tutrrox, the motion was
withdrawn.
-------

ARMY MEDICAL EXPENSES.
Lord PALMERSTON presented papers connected
with the Medical Expenses of the Artny.—Laid on the
table.
- -

COUNTY COURTS' BILL.
Lord ALTHORPE postponed the second reading of
the County Courts' Bill, which stood for this day, to
Thursday next, the Beth instant.
ti AM POUND DISFRANCHISE NI ENT.
Mr. S. IVOKTLEY postponed to Tuesday next, the
further consideration of the Urampound Disfranchise-
ment Bill.

BANK CASH PAYNIENTS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the postponement to 3londay next of the Bank Cash
Payments Act.
Mr. BARING wished the Right Hon. Gentleman
would name a more distant dal.; and desired to know
was it the intention of the Right ilonnitrable Gentle-
man to bring forward any other motion on the subject
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
(as we understood), it was not his intent' to intro.
duce any other subject, except some regulation respect-
ing the silver tokens issued by the Bank of Ireland.
Mr. BARING pressed his objection to so early a
day as Monday. The Right lion. Gentleman seined
to him (Mr. II.) to consider the question an unimport-
ant one: bitt he begged to tell him that he would move
an amendment, referring the consideration of the
question nut to a Committee of the whole House, I u
to a Committee above stairs. The little information
he had on the subject of forgeries on the Bank was as
yet very billing indeed ; he trusted that when the
subject cave before the Homage, that part of it would
be fully elucidated.
After a few words, the (7111NCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER postponed the Committee to next Mon-
day se'imight.

CORN AVERAGES.
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved fur Copies of any re-
cent Accounts received from any of his Majesty's Am-
bassadors at Foreign Courts, of the prices of Corn in

those Countries.
Sir .1. NEW moved that there he laid before
the Bottle au account of all sums of money paid by the
Commissioners of Rncise in Ireland, for se.-en years
last past, for Stamps and l.aw proceedings.--Ordered.
TITHES LEASING RILL.
Sir GEORGE BILL begged the Hon. Baron et,llleni-
her fur the Queen's County, would postpone the second
reading of the Tithes Leasing Bill, which stood fur
this day.

Sir H. PARNELL consented.
Second reading postponed to Wednesday nest.
PETITION OF CHAS. HILL.
Alderman WOOD hoped the flight lion. the Chan-
celler of the Exchequer would excuse his callinghis at-
tention, and that of the Lords of the Treasury, to the
case of Charles Hill, whose petition to the House he
held in his liana. Ile had delayed presenting that pe-
tition in order to afford the lion. Members for Somer-
set an opportunity to ascertain if any thing contained
in the petition was false. The petitioner stated, that
lie was and hail been a prisoner in the gaol of Hates-
ter for 15 years ; that from the year 17.!*.i to 1801; pe-
titioner bail been collector of Assessed Taxes, at which
date (1S116) lie was charged with a deficiency of
6171.; by Nile of property and other means he had
made up that SUM, except 341. only, so that that un-
fortunate man had been confined for 15 years slur the
petty suns of 3 11.—(Hear, hear.)—About four years
ago he (Hill) had petitioned this House, immedi-
ately after which his boxes were broken open and the
ielsidetits had never been restored to him. The pe-
tition complained of a damp cell and other sufferings
and privations. His (Alderman W.'s)object in pusent-
ing the Petition was nut to complain of the Gaoler, but
to entreat the sympathy of that House for the poor
Petitioner aged 7-1 years, who had suffered such long im-
prim:mm:ln for so trifling a sum. whilst great defaulters
to the anionnt of hundreds of thousands, were allowed
to escape wills impunity. The Petitioner complained
also of being locked up from five o'clock in the evening
till seven o'clock next morning. .%-mongst others con-
fined in that prison, was a young Quaker lady—young
;unrest, for she was only '22 years of age. She was con-
fined for debt incurred by joining her brother in secs-
rity,and was, necessarily, attended by the turnkey, there
being no female attendant in the prison. Mr. Henry
Hunt was also confined there, and who, during the
shrieralty of Sir Charles Dampfield had been treated
with great kindness, hut he found the contrary was the
case at present. However as he (Alderman Wood) in-
tended in a few days to call the attention of the House to
the state of lichester Gaol, he wonhl not press that part
of the sithject further at present.
Mr. l'llPrifr knew nothing of the Petitioner, but
from thelartit!nn irleich stated that the poor man had
beds confined for IG years, fur a debt of 341., and the


_ ~~

ten. . George __ indebted to 011911111111 it
in a sem of 100,800 L, and yet he riles about is bal
joyment of liberty. He did sat mention this Waal file
persecution of Mr. Villiers,!•nt to express his hope ow
lit would be proved there was not one law fee the plot
mg another for the rich.—(l tear.)

The CHANCELLOR of the F:kCHEQree
was
acquainted with the circumstances of the. es*, hat 14.
servedt
dt r
*o dd withi ryi
tskel evidents s
collector.t the parish the
l twTwhichrtiii •Sidtiaraitiziagi
as at
e
rish that he bad been imprisoned, and the Trawl had
no power to skew mercy to him.
Mr. DICKINSON said, the impression ea hkageti
about the sum fur which petitioner was toothed
that it was much more considerable than 34/. He Cali
heard frequently that the petitioner might have
often liberated, had he consented to give up eana
property of which he was possessed. With
retest 1.
the reflection thrown out by the worthy Altleesaaa
against the gaoler of Ilehester, relative to Hint, he
was ready to meet him, and on the other pans alio
Two Magistrates visit the gaol, whose aolimi
tice is to ask Hunt snot all otherprisoners, if tileylit;
any complaint to make ? With respect to the
Alderman's own mission of inspectibu, instead aria;
I into the gaol, and making out Lk report fres act/4
observation, he had taken it from a rioted hE....
(Hear, hear.)
Sir 'l'. LETHBRIDGE did not rise to oppose*e
reception of the petition, but to express his etearictin
that the gaoler would he found worthy of praise rather
than blame ; fur he would venture to assert, the eael
of Ilehester was in as perfect a state as any in the
Empire.
Dr. LUSHINGTON had taken sr*ine pains to ism.
dgate the allegations contained in the petitios, taxi
mould assure the House of the truth of a great pamal
of them. It was true that petitioner had been coshed
from 1506, not for a balance of 341. only, bat lark
I much larger one, for he bail refused tn wean ca.
fain deeds in liquidation of his balance.—llear,
must say, at the saute time, that four !eau
petitioner bail consented to sign them. He (Dr. L)
held in his hand a report, by which it appeared that
701. was the only deficiency at the present assent.
He did not mean to extenuate, yet the petitioner har-
ing suffered sixteen years' itnpristmoseirt, lie (Dr. Lt
hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Reese
would agree he load suffered enough, and that 1. was
not asking too Hindi in begging that the seat of jSI.
remaining due would be remitted to theyetitioner. Ile
implored the lenient consideration of his Majesty's*.
'eminent for a poor prisoner, 74 yeas of age. Ile
bore testi' 11111 l y to the good character of tke rola et
lie rester pal. Respecting the complaint of damp, it
should be known, the floor (lithe prison was below tie
level of the river. He repeated, there were Is touch's's
taken to manage the prison well as ary tabor is f e
Empire. The conduct of the gaoler might hart Ikea
little harsh (what gaoler was otherwi..e,) vet lethal
rendered essential service to the Magi.:trates in rebx*
ing the prison.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN bore testimony t the gad
charicter of the gaoler.
Sir FRANCIS OSTRIA WRY said slew aravlsodid
were rendered inaudible by noise.
:llderman WOOD, in explanation, said be had sal!
stated the gaoler had not shown indulgence is the
prisoners, and which lie was ready to rorr, eliestrer
a proper r cession offere.l. Petitioner wan anatomy,
and bad, fur a number of years, managed the rchedal *
of his fellow prisoners ; bra , on the peti•inn, fietyent
ago, lee had been preventen continuing to do so. Tile
lionourable Member had said, that he (Ablersin
Wood) had not gone in .tile the prison, and yet had
made a report of its state. That the Rorosrabk
Gentleman should charge him with sneh remind sn
most extraordinary. In fart, he hail b•en assoritri
in the inquiry with two other 14.0441105, end thew
had spent souse hours in the ineestigarine. aud4,W4
the book kept in the gaol.—(Bear.) IVa4 tare Ilene
nourable Dentleman must hare been inisinforesel,
ut
lie would not have made such a staterner.
Mr. BAILIN° recollected a pilgrim:tee gent fret'
the city of London, to inquire into the state of th'
Gaols of the kingdom, composed of two AlJereic
Surveyor, and Toni' Clerk. They made their vii
thin at llchester, and in vat city style, ordered s rsol
dinner, which detained them so long, that thy laa
not time to iuspect die prison.—(Gouil lasii7);
'I hey made their statement of that gaol from t
book, describing accurately the situation of *omit°,
windows, pump, &c. ; but, unfortunately, r' o<e 6:l'
bad been changed two years before.—( Iroo.i louOlerL)
11"
This was the mode in which deputations feats
city of London made their inspections.--(Hetri so
laughter.)
Mr. DICKINSON said, that since be eameierollt
House, he heard from another dentienisn
deputation bad not entered the prison Of 1k110:n5
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILMOT wished to ask the Hon. Ahlonill
was the Report made from printed hook. or fr",ll
actual visitation ?
teriga r
it
Mr. BERNAL rose to order. He con
was improper to ask questions *Veiny lloroo.w
Member after such Member hatiMeli any 3 ert's
"'
(Hear.) •
ullat;dXThiOstifriheanidlsaclaaninleleatrodtst!sttonthne-altrdifokitr,t;ol-i.
001'?'
odre.ritnered an excellent dinner, sent f
Mr.a
asked him for his book ;
or the
ther
n
Mr. Alderman WOOD Ihtneraidsothseplolkoeusei skr:
terms of the gaoler.
lier
him in explanation. After he and two br"
naniedn,s(lSLiriJtiorchinol:ewrritiinig,titmehesn a Memberurreyor of
and T"
14 he .
bad spent two hours inspecting the gaol'. ,
be told had sent for Laoter.
that thev id m one%
a he
their report from him ; was he to he to
(Alderman Wood), haring asserted r. "orrery :""
t
(Hear, heae.)—la.reply to the sneerall
would only am they had not dined tiler' at
(Loud chewing.)
fie ii.rL
manbi Mr.
t Ij
unjustlyii N S
attar °Nk
e thou.ill ir
t*h.etnl)l.lrll4llcbe'All:'..
that most rule
cihoensHplotunsoeusi'vaosuladgnotood
Me of the rights remaining to the peol" I
the right orpetitien.
dpuischolluclobeli_laagoctisteate:

.e t..

-

I era"( prit.
t., against the 8
or't' an e propestti
.
... iirquiples in
(':r. tintnt)
1 •
1.1111 .:

T T AN.
Pri*Aaliha Pm"
iuenee nlion hie date.. He Misted bin lion: raped
c He traded
wear bins would enthdraw Isis motion, upon an ender;
Ili. Could tbo
standing that the motion of the Hon. Oentlemas nod. as It 11611111
site would also be withdrawn. to the bar, or b
...... should be 4 that side of the Hot
- - .

‘,
.J;';
1
lion. 'Gardenia's die. Petitioner was allwat.the miriaced *gait 7.4, If shit
gbriag an unweeessary statement were true, he was worse tredmi than his ht.
say whether itym oa tors. Dlr. George Villiers was indebted to Gomm,