The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-11 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

'loolllidg4l44l, W 64 a-mammy qualification for admission'
into a Illootasuff corps. When smell aspersions were cast
lison so valuatsio a body, the Honourable Gentlemen was
hound is etindair to state front what 'nerve be received
his information. alle (Sir George) denied that there was
any foundation for such aspersions. It wan admitted, that
to England yeetrawary were necesaery to preserve the peace
of the country ; then how much more necessery in Ireland,
at any time. and still more in MI. It was stated on a late
occasion by his Right Hon. Friend, the Attorney-General
for Helene, that three protloces were beset by a hand of
new, worn to subvert the laws, and extirpate Protestants.
From this associafaen, Protestants were protected by the
yeomanry. The lionottrahle Gentleman lied referred to
the conduct of particular corps. Now he would state what
wee the conduct of the Derry corps last year. They were
• prat en permanent duty on the Pith of October, and con-
tinued so till the June following, during which time their
conduct was seek se to deserve the thanks of Government ;
end riot one enuiplaint was made by any Roman Catholic.—
Oo of Dee. last, the anniversary of the shutting
the gates of Derry, this corps abandoned the celebration
of that day, held so dear by every citizen of Derry.—
(Hear, hear). He (Sir G.) having been .n Dublin during
his Majesty's visit, when he returned to Derry on the
!26th of December following, a few ittividuals waited
upon him to compliment him on his return. The Sunday
following, a resolution was entered int* at the Catholic
Chapel, at Derry, and a complaint forwarded to Lord Tal-
bot. that the yeomanry of Decry were guilty of a breach of
his Majesty's recommendation, in appearing in uniform with
etOnsin their hinds, and playing party tunes,which were very
offensive to Roman Catholics. An inquiry was immediately
Instituted, which lasted five days, the result of which was,
that not one yeoman appeared lii uniform. or had a drum or
fife; and When asked what party tunes wire played, it was
replied that they were the " Rattle of the Royale." " Cro-
pies Ile down.' and "God save the King." He could hot
tear the attacks without refuting them, made upon so valua-
ble a body—a body which was necessary to keep down the
growth of rebellioe in Ireland. He was born in the same
principles which they upheld, and those principles he would
maintain through life. He did not, however, know any one
men In Londonderry, among those persons, with whom he
was more immediately connected, who was en Orangeman.
'Ft..country gentlemen, rcspeetnble farmers, and artisans in
the North of Ireland, were compelled to associate toother
upon the principle of self-defence, which was the first law of
nature. In 1911 the Ribbandmen commenced their outrages,
and it then became necessary for the loyal part of the popu-
lation, to unite against them:
Mr. S. RICE said that this was a question which ought
to be dismissed with good temper. it was very e rong to
infuse into itany thing that was likely to_promote angry
feelings. lint besides this consideration, there were others
which would induce him to oppose any harsh reproaches
on the Orange body. He knew that there were attached
to that holy, some of the very best and most honourable
men that could be found any where, brat whose powers of
utility were cramped by the nature of the obligation they
were littler. This applied as well to the sworn Orange-
men as to those who, like the Right Honourable Gentle-
ness, took the infection in the n aural way.—(A laugh.)
The Right Honourable Baronet seemed willing to 'Nun
an the forms of Orangeistn, while, at the same time, he
gloried in its spirit. —(H.ar, hear.) The Honourable
Tef craw then contrasted the Masonic with the Orange
Societies, and said, that the latter disturbed the peace
of the country, while the former were perfectly notori-
ous. He called upon the Government to put 'down is
good faith, a system which led to the most calamitous
sons-quences. He would ask, why were the Oranremen
allowed to celebrate the anniversary of the battle of the
Boyne? What must inch a practice bring to the mind
of the Catholic ? Did the Noose recollect that James
IL was looked upon in [rebind as a legitimate King,
who was endeared still more to the majority of the in-
habitants by being of the same religion with themselves?
LIM the House recollect that the Revolution, whatever
advantages it might bate brought to the Protestants of
Ireland, brought nothing bat hardships and misfortunes
to the Catholics? The forfeitures which it caused
tltytntlnted to 100,000 of acr..s, and the outlawries to
4,000. While the /Licht lion. Baronet and others glo-
ried in the principles of the Orange system, it would be
vain for Government to pass a Bill In suppressing it.
It was the police that first introduced Orangeisin into
Limerick, the part of Ireland with which he was more
clorely connected, and from that time the spirit of party
there hail hecbme much tusre violent than at any for-
me' ..peioail. The Hunottrahlv Member next entreated
Minister, to adopt towards Ireland the recommendation
contained in an Address to George 11., which he read
to the house. It deprecated the existence of all party
dietinctiotti, as hostile in every respect to the general
irterests of the people. He did not require from any man
to forswear his early opinions; all he desired was that
all parties in Ireland would attend to the parting admo-
nition of the Kini.
Sir H. HILL., in explanation, denied that he lucid out
any encouragnt to Urangertem to persist, though he
enproved of the Protestants ystem, on which they pre-
f.:seri to ,ct.
Mr. DAWSON deprecated the mode it bleb his hononr-
al;le friend (Mr. Itice) took of producing conciliation.
It was certainly too conch for him to say that Orange-
's= so far pervaded all the public es•ablishments, that
it was first introduced into Limerick by the police.—
Now he (Mr. I)) could assert with confidence that,
to rg before the police bad gone down to Limerick,
(Jr.,neeism exist-d in a certain town in the South of
Irelan 1. it was well known that Bandon was the very
focus of Orangeism. It was there, too, that the symbol
a..d motto of Oratageism was to be read upon the gates
11 these words:—
" Tuik, Jew, or Atheist,
May enter here ; but, not a Papist."
Th's motto had been affixed to tbe gates fur a series of
.*. years, and if his holt. friend took the trouble of referring
• to it, he might have found that it was the watchword for
all Orangemen in the South of Ireland. The hots:mem-
ber then defended himself, as the Captain of a Yeomanry
Corps, from the imputation of commanding men who
were disto there of theublic peace. lie next vindicated,
in general terms, thee nduct ot,the Irish Yeomanry, an
stated that, when these corps were first ,'arms I. all persons
were admissible, without any distinction of religion.—
The Cathelics of Dublin, however, he said, were tannin-
.
ing at the time to associate with the Proteeantr, and ad-
- dressed a letter to Mr. Secretary Pelham. demanding to
be enrolled as a separate 11041; which was refused. Hel
ext contended that, in the Notth of Ireland, where the
eenienry corps were numerous, there were scarcely ►
any
outrages committed by the peasantry ; whereas the very
reverse was the catildin the South. There were is the
Smith lint few corps tovmparatively ; yet the peasantry
lc all the counties, with the exception of Waterford,
Lad neither any fear of (ion, nor any respect for man.
Mr. S. BICE euplained.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said be would not retaliate
upon the North of Ireland the calumnious imputations
• which the Hon. Member had east upon the Southern
counties, when according to his statement of the pea-
santry had no fear of Goo nor no respect for man. I'he
Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded to observe that the
yeomanry or any other description of local force was not
applicable to Ireland, however it might answer in Eng-
land. Ile was unwilling to recall the horrors of 1798,
tat he would say that at that period there was a great
deal to condemn on all sides. Much an he had suffered
from the persons implicated in the rebellion, he would
still say that sanatural means had been token to goad
them into it?—{Hear, hear )—Tbe Right Hon. Baronet
in the course of some further observations, said that this
was not the proper time for going into any discussion
respecting the Irish yeomanry. Ile was sort that a due
attention to the recommendation contained In the
King's Letter, would hare • greater effect towards
_.trinquillising Ireland than any measure that could be
adopted.

..Mr. DAWSON explained. His of serrations with re-
spect to the South of Ireland were confined entirely to
those parts where the peasantry were in a state of open
Iswitility to the laws.
Mr. PLUNKEf T was exceedingly reluctant to go
into any discussion on this subject. Nothing conkl in-
duce him to rise on the present occasion, except the re-
',mks made by the lion. Member for Aberdeen. That
Hon. Member had appealed to him (Mr. PO to state
whether there were not grounds for believing that the
yeomanry of Ireland had misconducted themselves 1 He
would say in answer to that appeal, that no instances of
their misconduct had come before him in his official ca-
pacity, nor did he believe that they existed in a general
case. There were certainly some instances of individual
misconduct, but these were not greater than were to he
found in other public bodies, and whenever they did
occur, redress was always had upon application to the
proper authorities. He must in justice say, that there
were oo fair grounds of censure against the yeomanry as
a body. He could not, however, fort-ear from expressing
his regret that so few Catholics were to be found in the
yeomanry of the North of Ireland. He could by no
means conceive, in the assertion of an Honourable Mem-
ber (Mr. Dawson) that the Catholics were unwilling to
' enrol thews .Ives with Protestants. He himself perfectly
~collected the time when he was an active member of a
yeomanry corps. It was in the year 1796 that the plan
of forming one was first suggested at his house, by a num-
ber of gentlemen, and an application was made to (do-
main ,nt in consequence. At that time the rebellion
which was about to break oat, was hatched and planned,
not by Catholics, but by the Protestants of the North of
Ireland i and in the whole line of country from Dublia
to Bantry Bay, there was not one Catholic to be found
who .belonged to the Society of United Irishmen. The
Catholics were then anxious to enrol themselves in the
Yeomanry corps, which were formed in Dublin, but
they were not met by a. corresponding spirit on the other
aide. They were refused admission into those corps
They consequently sought of Oovernment to be permitted
to form a corps of themselves, but that the Government
thought pi oper to refuse. He felt bound to say that the
Lawyers corps, that body to whom he had the honour to
belong, were the first to open the way to the admission
of Catholics, who enrolled themselves in considerable
numbers into that corps. The Yeomanry corps who re-
fused the admission of the Catholics were, no doubt, most
honourable and loyal, lint while they were a ith one hand
putting don n the rebellion, they were with the other
'band exciting rebellion by the exclusive principle on
which they were formed. With respect to what his
right hon. Friend said of the prosecutions instituted
by him against the associa ion of Ribbastletaeo. he wish-
ed to correct his Right hon. Friend. He did not say
that three provinces in Ireland had conspired to extermi-
nate the Pro'estant Religion. The associations were bad
enough, without making them worse, by ascribing to
them motives which they had not. 'f he extermination
of the Protestant religion did not form the object of those
associations. Without 'lying that the Orange As-
sociations were more dangerous than the Ribband
men, he should not hesitate to declare, that the for-
mer contribateil to raise the latter Associations, and
not the Ribband men to raise the former; for the
Orange Societies and exist prior to them. The great
danger which he saw in the Ribband men Associations,
was, first, their secresy ; and, secondly, that they consisted
exclusively of one religion, and their object was to oppose
the laws of the land ; but the extermination of the Protes-
tan! religion did not come within the scope of their designs,
So far at least as could be collected from the evidence pro-
duced on the trials. They infra have different opinions and
1 views, for they consisted of various classes of men, all of
i the very lowest order. Their plans and opinions were, of
course, equally various. At one time it might be recollect-
ed, they contemplated a junction with the Radicals of Eog•
lend, but It could not be collected from any part of the evi-
dence that they had formed a design of exterminating the
Protestant religion. He had already brought many of the
unhappy, deluded victims to justice, and contributed meek
to the brhaking up of that dangerous Association. He bad
confident expectations in the result of the measures that
were then before the House, for doing away with them en-
tirely, and tranquillising that country ; but the best way,
he thought, would be to try by persuasion to prevail oa
those persons who had incautiously joined the Orange-
men, to withdraw from that association. On that point
I there was no difference of opinion between himself and his
Right Honourable Friend the Secretary for the Home Dorf
partment. With respect to the probable efficacy of those
measures, his Right Honourable Frietfil entirely concurred
with him. With respect to the feefings of those who had
joined the Orange Societies, he agreed with his Right ilo-
nourable Friend. In his opinion the beat policy would be to
give those parsons time to retire by degrees, and not to
precipitate them. He knew that most of those persons
were anxious to get out of • those associations: and it
would not be good policy to make that retirement more
'oppressive than was necessary. The danger did not so
melt arise from the secresy of their engagemmts, as
frian the circumstance of the societies being composed
exclusively of persons of one religion. The object of
the Orangemen was, he had no doubt, to assist the laws,
and to protect the Throne and the Constitution, with a
resolution, however, never to admit Catholics. From
1 that two in!erenee were to be drawn ; first, that the Ca-
tholics were enemies to the Constitution; and, secondly,
that all those, not being Catholics, that did not enter
diom: associations, were also enemies. The danger was
that counter associations would be formed, by tue Ca-
tholics, to oppose the Oran Semen. He hoped, however,
the prospect of terminating all those unhappy differen-
mg was last approaching.
General HART bore testimony to the good conduct
of those corps of yeomanry in.o which Catholics bad
got admission.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH opposed the amendment.
Mr. GRATTAN defended Ms countrymen from the
sweeping charges of the Right Hon. Member for Lon-
donderry. It was from the North of Iteland the United
Irisl.men, and the Gran4e Societies, proceeded to dis-
turb the Sonth. In Dublin. at present, the yeomanry
corps were mixed with Catholics and Protestants, who
perfectly agreed among themselves.
Mr. GOULBURN opposed the amendment, the object
of 'which appeared to kiln to be to dissolve at once the
present yeomanry corps of Ireland, who were, as the re-
cords of Ireland proved, always ready, at a call, to ren-
der themselves useful to their country. Justice should
be rendered equally to all, and it was an essential part of
it not to give offence to any.
Mr. A ERCROMBY said, the proposition of his
honourable friend (Mr. Hume) was not to put an end to
the yeomanry corps of Ireland, but to limit the supply
to six months, in order that the house may be able to
form an opinion of the bills to be brought in by the
right hon. gentleman (Mr. (;oulburn). He hoped the
Government would redeem the pledge which they had
given of extending to Ireland the operation of the Act of
the 39th of the late King. Ile understood that a re-
commendation to that effect, was contained in the de-
spa'ches of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, so far back
as the month of November last. It was on ad understand-
ing of that• nature, that he had withdrawn a motion
which lie had lately made in that house.
Colonel TRENCH opposed the amendment. He be-
lieved the Catholics to be as loyal as any other class, and
hoped they and the Protestants would be always funnel
ready to defend the Laws and the Constitution of their
country.
Mr. Secretary PEEL admitted that the Lord Lieuten-
ant of Ireland gave it as his opinion, that the extension
of the 39th of the King would have a beneficial re-
sult. Acting on that principle, the Government did In
tend to assimilate the laws of both countries. He difft
ed with the bon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Aber-
et Denby) as to the object of the speech of the honourable

member for Aberdeen, and he thotight that honourable
member, while he said he wished only to suspend his
judgment, was, in fact, precipitpting the judgment of the
1110aSP. The Irish yeomanry corps male up a body of '
30,000 men always ready to come out at the small ex-
pense of 19,0001. a-year.—(Hear, hear.) The honour-
, able gentleman in his speech passed a sentence of con-
, demnedon on that body, and produced a warmth, he
was sorry to say, on the part of some honourable mem-
' bees, who as honest representatives could not be sileneeil
when their constituents were traduced.• The conclusion
so be formed was, that the honourable member was im-
posed on by the representations that were made to him.
Mr. G. BENNET supported the amendment. •1
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON rose amidst loud cries of I
. Question, question!" He said (with some warmth)
that he should not yield to noise. if any Gentleman
thought him acting disorderly, he ought to say so. But
'it was disgraceful to attempt to put a person down by
, clamour. The Honourable Member then applied bimseit
to the question immediately before the House. lie beg-
ged leave to assure the house that in the south west coast
of Ireland, in the town be represented, and in another
town, Clowned, that the Catholics readily came forward
to register their names in the volunteer corps in the year
1798. In 1798, he couteadede the rebellion was not a
Catholic rebellion.
. Mr. HUME then withdrew his amendment, and the
original Resolution was agreed to.
A Resolution was then read, voting the sum of
11,5691. for the use of the Royal Military College at
Sandhurst.
Mr- HUME objected to the expense of keeping up the
College merely for the purpose of educating youug men
for the community, and not for the Arley. He concluded
by moving, as an amendment, that the sum be reduced
to 8,000/.
After a few words from Lord Palmerston, Colonel
Davis, Sir Alexander Hope, Mr. Grey Bennet, Mr. F.
Palmer, the amendment was negatived by a majority of
107 to 14.
On the next Resolution for voting 29,1501. for the ser-
vice of garrisons at home and abroad.
Mr. HUME moved, as an amendment, that the sum be
reduced 19,1501.
After a few words from Lord PALMERSTON, Col. Davis,
and Sir A. Hors, the amendment was withdrawn,and the
original Resolution agreed to.
The National Debt Reduction Bill was read a se.
cond time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow (this
day.)
On a motion mide by the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER for the house to resolve itself into a
Committee on the Assessed Taxes Reduction Bill,
Mr. CU RW EN rose to declare his decided oppositioe
to the part of the Bill that went to continue the tax on
the windows and houses of poor people, while it was in-
tended to remit many taxes on the higher orders. Ile was
decidedly hostile to the Window Tax altogether, but this
tax would operwe as a grievous hardship on the great
mass of the people, of whom there were above 17,0110
wholly unable to pay the same. He concluded with
moving that it be an instruction to the Committee, that
they should make provision for taking. off the House and
Window Taxes from hotises under .51. a-year rent, and
having no mere than six windows.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should oppose this motion. It was true that houses pay.
inc W. a year were liable to the tax ; but the law pro-
vided that, if the reams occupying such houses received
parish relief, or it they had &certificate from the Minister
of their parish, declaring their in ibility to pay, they
were exempted from the tax; and he could enure the
, Hon. Gentleman that this exemption went to a very great
extent. Now if the law made such a provision as this,
' the inference must be, that the tax did not fall with un-
reasonable severity on the poorer classes. Besides, they
would be now relieved from one-half of the Window Tax;
aul if the Hon. Gentleman's suggestion was agreed to,
many persons in a higher class set life would bring them
selves within the circle of the exemption, and no one
could tell how far that would go. He was uot with-
out hopes that some additional relief would be af-
forded hereafter. He would t +lce this opportu-
nity of mentioning two alterations which he in-
tended to propose in the Bill. There were no poor rates
in Scotland ; and al no exemption could be &aimed
there on the score of receiving parish relief, he should
propose that the exemption should extend to cottagers
who lied three or more children. The next was, that
the exemption which already extended to shop-boys
under 15 years of age, should further extend to those
under IS.
Mr. Alderman WOOD s'ated that there were repeated
instances of surcharges, where men were casually called
in tb perform jobs in warehouses, and where it was con-
tended that a guinea a year should be paid as a tax fir
each of them. The consequence was, that not only en
just surcharges were made, but that great numbers of
poor people were kept out of employ.
Mr. BRIGHT strongly objected to the Window Tax,
the whole of which he thought ought to be taken off.
The house then divided :—For Mr. Citroen's motion,
34,—Against it, 87.—Majority, 53.
The house then resolved into a Committee on the Bill.
Mr. HUME said he fully concurred in the proposition
of his hon. Friend (Mr. Curwen) that it was neress iry
to afford relief to the occupiers of small houses. The
sum they paid to Government was no more than 60,0001.
or 70,0001. a year ;and that sum could be no object with
the Government, compared to the relief it would give.
Sir FRANCIS OMMANEY thought this tax ought
not to be taken off,
Mr. WETHERELL took notice of the incongruity of
laying a tax for a groom upon every horse in a College.
although only one groom might have been employed it.
taking care of ten he , and he hoped the Chancellor
of the Exchequer in his justice, would prevent this hard-
ship front falling on the Colleges, where many Unrste3
and others kept horses who were not able to bear this
burden.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that he saw no reason why Gentlemen in Colleges should
not pay for grooms as well as any other class of persons,
The Honourable and Learned Gentlemanseemedm ;neve
as if it was the grooms who paid the taxes, mid not thd e
who employed them. All he could say was, that if per-
sons had the advantage of the men's labour, they shoul•1
pay taxes for them. He could make no exceptions in
favour of gentlemen in Colleges.
Mr. CURWEN wished to ask the Right lion. Gent.
whether be had any objection to putting English cottages
upon the same footing as tie Scotch, with regard to house
taxes, by exempting front payment, au housekeepers who
had three children.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he had no objection to accede to the suggestion, but he
feared the exemption would not produce any very extensive
benefit.
Mr. CURWEN undertook to say that its effects upon the
poorer cottagers would be most extensively beneficial.
Mr. ROBERT PRICE suggested the exemption of per-
sous chargeable with the three-and-three-pence house duty
for four windows, on the ground of the inconvenience at-
tending their making an appeal when overcharged.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
no house was chargeable with taxes, which did not 'pay x.
yearly rent.
The Mouse then resumed, and the Report was ordered to
be brought up to-morrow.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of.
' Adjourned at half-past eleven.
ion

So great was the hurricane on Monday night, that
one of the largest elms in the close of Salisbury tcaa
torn up by the roots. This is the first soixdfall to him
who shall be appointed to succeed the late Dean Talbot.