The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-10-13 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

This was ae assumption which he apprehended no
man could seriously attempt to deny.
The &suction-tinniest. proceeded to answer the
arguments that were advanced on the opposite side.
He thought the course pursued by his Learned Friends
somewhat extraordinary. It was certainly competent
for his Learned Friends to produce whinnies to prove
the assertions. But as they had thought At to pursue
that course, it was too much, he thought, for them to
turn round and charge every act done by Rastelli, as
the act of the Milan Commlaskit But there
was another ground on which his Learned Friends
had argued, namely, that they hail not suffi-
cient time. This did not conic well from his Learned
Friend. For every indulgence, he would use that
term, every indulgence, in point of time, which his
Learned Friend demanded had been granted.
Mr. 1111011111A11 said the Solicitor-Oetscral mistook
his observation respecting the time.
Lord &MUNI wished Mr. Curtsey to read over a
particular part of the evidence. When this was done,
his Lordship then proceeded to address the House. We
regret that sonic of his observations were inaudible
below the bar, in the commencement. We under-
stood him to say that he attended there to be satisfied
according to the best laws of evidence. He disclaim-
ed any imputation against the Noble Earl at the head
of his Majesty government. But if the Milan Com.
mission had been appointed by them, had been acted
upon accordingly, he wished every thing cotinectlf
ed with that commission should be distinetly '
understood. For it appeared, that a most profligate
and corrupt agency had been exercised. And he
could not give his vote on this question, until every I
thing was clearly explained.
Lord Livenrool. rose, not for the purpi se of giving
any opinion as to the course to be pursued at pre-'
sent. That he would leave to other !lauds. But he
wished to assure the House, that at the proper time,
every thing respecting that commission should be
submitted to a fair investigation.
The LORD Cu•scsta.on then rose. He could not I
conceive it would be consistent with the duty that was ,
imposed on him, to offer at that moment, any observations
on the tendency of the evidence on one side or the other.
That would be the duty of all their Lordships at the
proper period. There was no distinction. He wished
to impress strongly on their Lordships: it was that if a
person employed as an agent, did any art without the
power or instruction of the employer that cannot be
considered the act of the principal. But still the wit-
ness might be examined as to that point. The Noble
and Learned Lord proceeded to comment upon
Rastelli's evidence ; and when he came to that part
where Mr. Cooke is nsmed, took occasion to observe,
that Ise had known that gentleman fur nearly balls c.o.
tory, and, upon his honour and veracity, during that
time he had not known a higher character. With res-
pect to the evidence which hail been objected to, fur his
own part he could consistently and safely say, that it
ought not to be received.
Lord EaSlitNE said, the object which he had in view
was to ascertain if there were proof of the is itnesses be-
ing corropted.
Earl CARNAirnm mid their Lordships' were now placed
in such a situation, that whatever step I
s they intended
to take relative to the statement of bribery. which bad
been made, if .that fact were proved, they ought not to I
proceed one step further in this odious, detested, and
infamous lit)1 He hail too high an opisiowst that
assembly to /oppose that they would proceed if the fact
were proved. if !her did, It would he the isatb-grarrarati
to the thonstitotion, it'd bring disgrace upon every valu-
able institution of the country. The charges which the
Bill contained, did not come down n than 3 years to
the period at which they were made; and after that lapse
of time, even if the charged grimes had fallen tinder the
legal description of treason, they could not have formed
the ground of trial. If there were those who bad osstl
hesitated to mix even private interest old* these pro-
ceedings, they had now entangled themselves, and they
would, also entangle every sacred institution which we
possessed, and bring upon the (louse,—he would not
say the odium.—but the suspicion of 'the county.
In such a state of things, if charges against the agents
of the commission were instituted, their Lordsbips
would by removing the acciostion from the &diorites in
this cause, and from the parties interested with it„if,sach
parties did exist, be doing them the greatest service.
His Lordship concluded by saying that he considered
this a case of subornation of perjury.
Lord DONOVIIIIMORE thought it peculiarly necessary
at that moment to call their Lordships back to the point
from which his Noble Friend had led them. His Noble
Friend had interposed with such a speech as he had
never heard on such an occasion, as if something had
occurred to conjure up all the angry feelings he pos-
sessed. Ile hail introduced a general speech upon the
whole evidence, and upon the principles of the Bill,
which had b-en amply discussed by their Lordships be-
fore they entered into it, at a time when a single point
was antler their consideration. His Noble Friend had
called into his speech every angry topic which had been
brought forward, either in or oust of doors, and clothed
them in the most inflammatory language. He (Lord C.)
had talked, that they were going to plunge then selves
into ruin on that day, by continuing the proceed-
ings, when they had for as long a time carried
on an investigation which could not but create the deepest
pain, and when he trusted the greatest part of it seas
over. Instead of allowing them at such a time to come
to a fair conclusion upon the case, his Noble Friend had
started up, and wished them to come to a short questiod.'
by coming to an end of the proceedings altogether. He
should not offer any Regiment against such a speech as
that which his Noble Friend had delivered. What lie
(Lord ft.) had stated to their Lordships, would be quite
sufficient to show the impropriety of his motion, or of
the hints which he had thrown cst.
The Earl of Canyaarow noble friend
had imputed to him a desire to urge inflammatory topics
in that House, but neither that imputation nor any other
should prevent him from expressing an opinion which
he would then repeat. That their Lordships' onght to
suspend their !Proceedings until the Milan Commission,
and all the circumstances attending it, had been fully
examined to the bottom. This was his decided opinion;
sad be also thought that after that examination it might
be very proper for the consideration of the House whe-
ther the whole of their proceedings should sot be de-
stroyed altogether.
The discussion here dropped, and on the motion of
the LORD CKANCILLOR the witness was again called in,
and his examination remised by Mr. WILLIANIS. •
Hof you any other conversation with Ripatelliqdr
his wituesses?—Yes.
where l•

one had asked another. and to on. That they then
cease together; and bat he asked them if they were
willing to give evidence ',eine* her R”al Highness.
Lord EaLartnonousin Isere interposed and observed,
that in his *pinion. the interpreter had inspreperlv
translated the Italian verb used by the witness to the
word " willing." He thongbt the translation ought to
have been to the ward " would."
After a rotiveriation between the Earl of Ltvenroot.
and Lord 131.1.ertnottonan, it was ordered, that the Ita•
Ilan word in question should be entered on the proceed-
info' with the answer.
he witness runtinued—Rastelli told me that he then i
asked these witnesses to go with him to Milan ' • that he
gave them breakfast. and that on arriving at Catroni,
he had told the innkeeper to give them whatever they
should ask for; and that he then took them to Milan
before the Advocate Vimarcati, before whom they were
examined.

Did he say that he had paid any money to those wit-
nesses ?

The SOLICITOR-Garteas 1. interposed, and objected
that this was a leading question.
After a short discussion, the Loan CNANCKI.I.OIt de-
cided that the question might he put, and it was pot
accordingly, in the following terms.
Was any thing said on this occasion by Bastelli,as to any
money which he had paid to these witnesses ?.--Y es.
What was it he said ?--He said that he had kept them
7 diva, and that lie had paid them 40 francs each.
. IXd he name the persons and the sums he hail paid to
wit !L-He said, that to all the natives of his own pro-
ranee he had paid 40 francs each ; sod that he had paid
to Raegasom 50 francs ; and to Brusly:oh° franc*.
Hid be name any one else ?—1 think he said he had paid
40 francs to Rossi, and 40 francs to Frantisco Itayno.
Dia he say any thing else respecting their expenses
besides what you have stated.---Not about the ex- I
pence., but he said he had post-chaises fur the per-
sons I have mentioned.

• Cross-examined by the SOLICITO‘MIGNIRRAL.
Then did the witness go to Catxoni in order that
the might all go front there together?—They went to
the inn, slept there, and set out the next morning.
Do non know how long they were going from Cat-
mini to the ♦illa:--A day
With respect to the grotto you spoke of yesterday,
I wish to know how long it was, was it 40 or 50 feet?
—I do not remember exactly. I do not know the
number of feet.

la it Bth• feet ?—lt i. more than fifty, he think",
he only judges by brachia.
Will yon a.k him whether it was time than twelve
or fifteen brachia ?—.l will not swear, I have not mea-
sured it.

Will he wear, that according to the best of his re-
collection, it was not more ?—lfe says it is longer in
a straight line than from the folding doors of your
Lordships' house to the throne.
Will you ask what the witness has been paid (or
coming here?—Pay I have not received, but I have
made my calculation, anti a written agreentent with
Matti about m♦ business, and with a Doctor or Ad-
Cocate sent by General Pino, as I should not like to
leave my children without they were well taken care
of. People leave their houses, and there is a great
deal to do for people of my lousiness, as i bare been
obliged to put another man into toy house, and to
send one into the country. My son I could not send,
and I cannot undertake any business, because they
love 'obi the it will he about two months, so that
having made all my calculations, they greed to give
sds 4,1041 francs.
Ale en his expences paid ?—They are.
What is the name of t he advocate with whom he has
made this agreement ?—1 never asked his name.
Is it Potaszi ?---No ; this writing has been looked
over by the Solicitor-lieneral.
Was Wassail present at the time?—No.
(lave you met Vassali on this business at Milan ?
Yes ; after the hand-writing had been made.

Where did yon meet lieneral Pinu ?—At his home,
when I served him as head-wasun.

Did you see (Jewel Pino on the subject of this
business 1-4 hare not seen lieneral Pia/ ever before or
after. I mot Itatti coining down the stairs of
General Pino, and he told we that if I was willing to
g.o, that he would take care to make me indemnifi-
cation fur my loss.
Did lieneral Pino then undertake to pay ?—I have
never seen General Pino.
Who then is to pay the money I—Vassali.
When you made this were other there
making agreements ?—No. Vassali was not present, lie
has not the slightest thing to do with it.
Who then is to pay the money ?—Vesaall
Am I to understand that be.sides the 3or 6 francs
you speak of, you are to get nothing else ?
Here the Queen's interpreter made sonic observation
on which the Marquis Spiretto remarked.
Mr. BROUGHAM.--. 1 mast bog you will not interfere,
you are there as an interpreter, and it requires nu jus-
tification.

Some confusion arose in consequence.
The Marquis of Spiretto proceeded to defend him-
self.--(Order, order).
My Lords. lam charged.—(Order, order).
Mr. Baovon.ix.—My Lords, the Marquis Spiretto
Wants to be Counsel fur my interpreter, against myself.
The LORD CII4NCILLOIL-Iltarquis, you tang allow
me to be your Counsel, and 1 beg you *IV confine your-
self to a faithful interpretation..
The SOLICITOR-OSNIMAL regained.— Will you swear
that no promise, or other payment or expectation has
been made to be
or family ?--I mean to say that
my tune is to be considered while I remain, here.
What do you expect to be paid for the loss of your
Sim ?—As they told me I am to remain here a month
omits half, I demanded one gold Napoleon per day.
Though they might not have promised it, do you
expect it ?—lf they give it to me, I will not refuse it.
Have they not behaved to you in each a manner u
induce you to believe you will get it?---I expert it.
• Yoa have spoken of a person of the name of Racchi?
.Tos; he assisted my family, and he is to teach my son
the hwainess In my absence.
• What reeompeene ie be to get 1-1 have Made so
hrm,gmaitot. • He is mat a rommoo kind of man that
•
Wmeeld ramiee a-promise.
is he ma archaset to Oampral Pia, and the Prisons?

kolow that Itacehl has irseimplaYett
?.t/se IW tP Este Sat ( itiat's of.
Pr"46lo—Ves; • ill !flms& 1111/
alp Oil luta, atm • 1_
ta* Oen Ows.l4o,arellik • far ,41kyr
4/si likk the V 011aVsPh4.- INT
Wk. 441 66•4 • •#Meellh.
AI -4.1110,1

his collecting witosmos?-IFes. is be oat ambito
State what It was and where it tonic piste —'l'llll -4141 it,: .
time I ha& tiny cenvirsation with him on timt *Wit /**l4.iseg kw
was eosin from the States of the Pope. J afterwards to tow.i.,
had a eonveniadon with him at al Inn. W.Ptalkod when
this Maisons ibit ght
*tily t god srs "^'
discoarso spot so4wees. • Olt I scot tllll..___* MIL!, ..
coeds; wit a th.usio••76abirtitt
him, sod wo *gait . .Atte
hel /it .47 a
*Umbria to /11111111rfailt lit t sad'imao takes by Ili