The Statesman.
London, England, 1810-02-24 00:00:00

Jigs.
DArf cave or►fice) that he
bring furnard a motiew

Resolotion•, .actich stood for
~.vrre-rmeprin7ll to Atomlay se's.
guest of Mr. Whitbread.
brought up, in nelenanee of
iiiise, a Copy of the Minutes
uu the Honourable Captain

, vswFR TO THE CITY OF
LON DON.
gave notice that it was his in.
an Address to his Majesty,
,minlinicate to the Manse by
been induced to return the
Address of the City of Lon.
. fix the day upon which he
'ard, a• he did nut wish to in-
-I)ortant dismission' which acre
coosidention.
.ISII CATHOLICS.
some preliminary oliservathns,
ions from 'the Catholics of Eng.
ihe same a, that presented to
by Earl Grey. The petitious
on the 13111 r.
' ATI( vFS CO:AMU\ ICATION
Hl' MAJESTY.
..1 D sail, that as the llnit.e
r of Members than it was last

rl of Chatham was examitivel

:tee, he thought it necessary la
shat last might the Earl of Chat:
iLe kluileikftre the Coat94tee on various
been cii.nincdTlMl'lli 'terra:
already laid before the House,
asked whether he had not given
to his Majesty relative t 4 the
question, although often re.
different manner, he constantly de. ,
The refusal to answer that
strong presumption that Lord
fact given other papers to his Ma-
previous to presenting this narrative.
Chatham, he we'd, was a Peer, the
' feel.thet they had aoy power
a question that he so often de-
ft was, however, undoubted!y
Meow to vote as bumble ad.
ijesty, praying hiss to grist the
~r snob atemoroada or aarratives,
Chatham bad *I Way time given to
concerning thtfispedition whivh wry
It wagon the 47th of Jaw.!
resetand to go isle the inquiry,
6th of Febramytthaes puma
Lae) proposed to address
dive which had been
oa tho 14th. Ministers hid,
Session promised the Hume that
4 seed; down to theta such dove-
. appear to him sufficient, with fur
Expedition; and yet such an impur.

THE trAttS

tent document as Lard Chatham's nerratiiet_ bad
sot been sent down to them, and did hot, fe paint
of fact, waist at the time erten Ministers made the
promise. The gallant Officer (General Loft) had
saved him a great deal of trouble; fort whatever
bad been his opinion• of the. propriety Of Cang
for papers which were given to his Majesty per.
sonally, the Notre had voted that the thing might
be done, and upon thir resolution they balled for.
and obtained the narrative. As to the general
principle, of the Earl of Chatham taking advan-
tage of his situation of a Peer and Privy Coon.
cillor, to approach his Majesty's person, and give
him private accounts of the Expedition of . which
he had been Commander.ln.Chiet, which would
tend to prejudige his Royal mind against the brare,
Officers of his Navy, he believed there could be
hardly any Member in that House, who must
not allow that the thing was highly improper and;
unconstitutional.—( fleas, dear!)—lt appeared
now, that Lord Chatham, having acted on the
Expedition in conjunction with Sir Richard Stra.
chan, came to England before the termination •of
that Expedition. In none of the officiti dispatches'
which he had written from abroad, did he ever
make the slightest charge against the Navy, or
'throw any imputation on any Naval Cotwoander,
but, on the contrary, upon alt occasions bestow.
ett upon them the most unqualifiekapprobation.
'Nevertheless, in the Narrative of Lord Chatham,
and in this Journal: the reasons assigned for the
nonperformance of the objects of the Expedition•
were undoubtedly such as to confey imputations
upon the naval branch of it. It was those obser.
rations alone which tended to raise a question be.
tweed the two services, and to put them at issue.
This was a thing which had been carefully avoided
by himself `and his friends during the whole of
the Inquiry, and they purposely abstained from
asking any questions thatmight tend to commit
'these two branches of the public service. If,
;Aberdare, any, disageelment should now take
place,4'wes le. Lorillehathamt and to him alone,
ttiatsit'ails tdhe'sittrihuted. It might, perhaps,
be allowed to ane Catrnander, in the teal of the
moment, le spew some impatience, ,if by any
cause his orderahould not be seconded by another
with wham -Oa was to co.operate... This was,
however, not tips case with Lord Cwifisina. While
ho.tvas acting 'With Sir. Richard' Strathiuy he be.
'Oared upssa_Jsim the most unqualified Applitsse ;
anal it 'was not moil the Eepeditiod. failed, and,
that Earl Chatham had arrived in London,•that
he then ,took advantpge. of tire perpetual aecess'
which he had to his Majesty's 'person, to make
private representations to his Majesty. of, what he
unsigned as the causes of the failure. Thlit fie slid
make those private representations mesa be .pae..
'aimed from ail the circumstances4thiels have
transpired, from his refusing yesterdarto answer
.the Committee upon that point, and from the
advice w hich had been Rivets to, his Majesty,
with respect to the answer . which was re.
turned to the .Address of the City of Lott.
doss. If the narrativeof fiord Chatham had been
at that time in the hands of his MajestEX-Milds.
ten, it was impoesibloihat they NY<h v • •
Ishe to return such an attpae•rr (hurl', Or!)
Mr 19 ,Semi 1ir..., •L. - «A' ... ••.. • put
mint' his last. ...as!te considering the relatifsg of
the • • ...Ts among theinserves, it was highly
. amble that they were as ignorant now of what
ether papers Load Chatham thought proper to put
' into the hand's of his Majeaty, as they were of this
narrative an host' before he presented it.- If
alsters ungld a le,littely deny the existence of the
Papers that r • 11,,N moving for, ho should of
course not pro:. he .fietion: But if they ceelit
not deny the exist.. -of such i).apers. he Would
appeal to the ots:c A Its' • it AA, not necessary
to address his Alajest, 4.: I.if
110.. v could it be said itiat than ;:leers-nn the table
were sufficient and 341414i-to:isl `. Of Pic teas
reason to se mime th tti-rFavere still hnrklug isi.
the closet of the papi-;rs ef, great, import:.
ante upon the sulii•et of (Iv: !stoic'', and w:
had not !Wll ill bine( fed to the ll.otw. There was
every reason to suppose those papers, telikh were.
kept bark, contained charges and imputation 4
against the gallant Officer who com.nanded the.
naval branch of the service. ‘Vheto a Military
Cietimatuler took such an advantage of hitaitu.
anion of a Minister, and of the personal emelt
he ha(l to his Majesty,. he must say, that (MS was
a system of favouritism which the . Hanle 'must
bold in perfect abhorrence. (Mar, he !)• It
was a sort of favouritism which the Constitution
of this eissintry knew nothing of; and which was
tint reconcileable to the idea of a limited Mo-
narchy. (11ear hear !) If Inch. ar • system of I
favouritism was practised, it. would confound all
the distinctions between those Monarchies that ere
called limited, and those which arc acknoa !edged.
to be absolute. Thu most determined democrat'
never brought a stronger charge against any mo-
narchy, than that favourites had ready access to

• .
nities to poison his Zvi, ailed against brave
and deserving men, who had no means of defend.
ing themselves against such attacks, as minions
had access when they had ovt. ( Loud cries of
hear, hear !)- Would tbc House then hesitate
to intreat his Majesty to pour forth into the bo.
sae► of his faithful subjects, those reprasentattotis
which it mast be presumed had been mode to him
in secret, on the important subject which was now
under iovestigation ? The [louse had a right to sup.
pose tfiat there were other papers, awl that thuse
papers did contain charges and imputationsagainst
the gallant Officer who commanded the naval
bunch of the Expedition (Sir Richard Strachan).
This narrative, which had now been presented,
was (asitho Noble Lord told the noose) in pre-
paration from the beginning u( October, and yet
it was not presented until• the 14th of Feleruary,
sod it seems that it was presented only for the por-
n! its being moved for. As the Earl of
refused to tell what other papers he
had previously put into his Majesty's hand upon
this oubjec it was impossible fur the Rouse not
to presume that he had given in other papers. which
contained irnpetatious on certain of and
which it was important that the House shotil.l be in
possession Of; On evety principle j,istlce to
Sir Richard &whim) to the Navy, and to the

,lii.

Publie, and according to every principle of the
Coasdtation, tleia inlorasetion should not be with.
field. Ministers were, niscroabtedly, recimosible
-far every public aft of his Majesty, and for every
advice which was given to him by any of their body.
It appeared that secret representations had been
mail to *is Majesty, and secret advice given.
He kneir that; Ministers might ray, they did
nut knoir at what Mace to find: those papers ;
but he Could answer that objection, by est.
ittg,w here did they find the other paper...the Nar.
relive ?—[lletir hear !). His Majesty might
send the papers now moved for, as he had done
the other, to the regular office. He concluded by
moving, "That an humble Address be presented
to his Majesty, praying that lie would be
.gra-
ciously pleased to order copies of the Memoran-
da, Narratives. and other Papers, submitted to
his Majesty by the Earl of Chathami relative to
the Expedition to the Scheldt."
Mr. Secretary ILYDER, said., that he did nut
attempt to question the right of the House to pre-
sent such an Address to his Majesty, if they
thought it proper ; but lie would contend that,
in the exercise of that undoubted rislit, they
should always confine themselves withiu the limits
of discretion. There was one observation which
hail fallen from the lionntarable Gentlemateon
the close .of his speech, es high appeared to him
to be a full, answer to all the observations which
hpal preceded it, Thu Honourable Gentleman
hail himself been aware, that if the ILousa were
to resolve open presenting such an Address, Mi-
nisters would not know. where to look fur the
papers alluded to. He had no difficulty in stating
expressly that there neither were, nue ever had been
any such papers- deposited in any of the °flees of
the Government, nor were the Ministers apprised
of the existence of any such papers. [Lend cries of
hear ! from the Opposition benches.] The narra-
tive of Lord Chatham had nut been communi-
cated to Ministers,. nor were they apprised of its
existence until the 14th 'of February [near !
hear ! from the Opposition benchesj, and tltst
was only. a Short time before it was preseeted at
the Levee. lie believed, however, that-no whirrs-
ses had ever been presetited before to his Majesty,
on such occasions, except fur the production of
official papers (which these were tint), or praying
to be informed who advised his Majesty to any
particular act. He dill not know any thing which
,would justify the. House, in point of precedent, I
for ngreeing to such an address. If such papers I
existed, as they private and •confillential pa-
pers, Would the House wish to search the private
esertitoire trf his Majesty ? iLcitacries of dear !
hear!
.from the. Opposition beaches.] Hethought
that the House., in the exercise of theirsliseretion,
svonfil not. cis', for privale papers, if such Mitt
eihtt; and he therefore saw nu grouttds for th!..
motioht mustoppoSe it. -
Mr: rt3.)1:49N8Y remarked, that, if he had
only heard. the -Hight Honourable _Sec' setary'L'j
speech, „witbdot hearing that sentence, w*. to
said he ivoild oppose the motion, ke3l.<l'd hate
thought that he meant to so - . for all his
saves' way in 6 , A adtgt. [Us Ors
hene..9 iottnundgeGealles: .An had
...t.sittlect she. riltht of the !loam to call for'thesa
,Pipers; but said that he did nut !pow. blow It get
at them, •vs ithout suarrhing his Majesty's pavales
eserttioire. [A loud col of 'hear', heal' 9 Wo..
this doetriee to. be eteltirest ? ar,,hear 9
Was it to he endured from a British Secretary of
Atate to a British house of Comitions I [Load
crie&Of. hoar, hear !] „Wu he to be permitted
for, a momeht to maiutkin, as a legitimate objec-
tion, that he did not know where to look fur a
Pnblie paper. without searching the [Ovate merit-
teire of his Sovereign ? [lleitr, hen,' F.] Did
,he
imagisielhat these communications were to be con-
sidereal- as private told confidential ? If.he. did, he
must maintain that a Privy Cotinsellor had the
right to, make pave': and confidential comnieui...
cations to his Sovereign, upon a ettbjth..t of great
publie.importance, without any consultation with
ettli•agues. [llear, hear -If this doctrine
was t..• b. in lint:tinsel and acted upon; then there
was tir all responitibility. [Loud cries rf
hear, h, zr !J Ir it was to be endused in one
tart' Coetenaetler, being at the same time a Privy
Counsellor, it toast be endured in others in the
same situation, and it here then would be the Con.
stitutioN ? The Right Honourable Secrete:), ad,
mitted the right of the House to call for thee
papers, hut said that they could not ' exercige
because he knew not. where to look for the infor.
matiet4 . The House, he said, must be governed
by discretitn in this ease. Did he think it would
be disereetin the House, to allow a Military Com...
mender and Privy Counsellor to resort to such
practices as these ? [Loud cries of hear! hear !]
The first and great benefit which the community
derived from the powers of that House was, that
by the proper exercise o‘ these power's all Serret"
machinations were brought to light, [hear, heap:,
•••tiwies I] 41 Ma 44144 11 Witte= Coutd.tio miiigarvrs4.
I seitt3tions to his Majesty on public questions with:
out bring reseunsible. If this system of favour-
-1 itism WaS to be permitted—if secret plots and ma.
chinations were to be carried on without responsi.
hints( on the part of Ministers, the Goveinment
would differ in notl ing from the absolute Monar-
chies that existed in France and Spain. The Rt.
lion. Gentleman said, he did not know where to
1 find the papers—but where did he find the narra.
?---[A loud cry of hear, hear !]-1 t appear-
-1 cd the :Ministers heard, fur the first time, of this
.narrative at the Levee, at which it was presented—
and, yet they found that paper, and it was now
out the table !! Was it to be supposed that his Ma-
jesty would refuse to communicate to his servants
whatever information he possessed on Otis subject ?
[lieordiestr!]Thie wise most abominable doctrine,
'ler here the Sovereign's character was tradiijeil, in
order to screen his Ministers, and to save tbenkfrem
the isecessity, of producing these papers. 'rlieSove.
reign would never allow the character of a brave
' Officer to be assailed, without affording him every
means of defending himself. It was not a regiel
for the Sterereigit that actuated the Ministers un
this occasion ; but the [Loyal Person was dragged
into the debate to secure themselves. They called
eon the 110,eie to abstain from presenting this
address wit of respect to the Sureteigo whsid

. •

-,_-- -2-.

. .
their real object was their o';V11 prOfectjaviticioubtntitik_ttilivl..
never scrupled to shift the /081101Itibility cr
themselves, and in effect to accuse his h15.#4,4
Re hoped the House would mark its: Seprnttl It
at a practice ia uueonititultanil, and save!4 k
the Address, whichmany impoitot to
stool
called upon them to adopt,.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQI;cI
did nut think that his' Right Hon. Friend 03.
Secretary Ryder) had exposed himself to tie,:
viufent attacks, and constitutional censures :,
animaliersions which had teem) throwo•oot it :".4
hillk.• Ilia Right Hots. Friend had distinitlystitia 1
thaethe House had an Undonbted right to ,ul.'
such an Address, if they thought proper; hit 0;1
the House should deiiikrately exercise their ti!:
eretion before they came to such a N ute. As tour,t.
the House es.as in the constant habit of cellap•lt
for; thei:i,; but to what extent thelt, divev„,;:s
11,sliamildrailleoTv ttlilicejnre to was
callno iiiihopeuti rebut . hoaitsit:ldaejceisatryeli
private and confidenti?.l papers, was a matter for
isi-vreioilcieulisthiley•r.;aetdioo.itsiv.ed:if licile:lrlaegiaanige.:(4:terettiouleomgthithiteir (tile,
Whitbread) had. however said, that if Nliniqa''
jta4 been in p issessiou of Lord Chatham's isatt4i
of Lotelon, it was impossible that.they
given that ansvfer, or that they should not have
tphootn,gl Ipiot
Itlhilaits tthrei a
IN. s o
w,
I his part, that if he had seen the narrative at cut
time, he should not have advised, it difFeroot 0
swer ; nor did he see in that narearfse any iliiii;
which inclined him to think that any Conn.Nlar.
tial might to be held on the Naval Cuomo&
er. The whole argument of the Itimusrahlt
Gentleman proceeded on the assumption the
papers did exist, conveying such charges 4
he supposed were calumnious against the Ns,
cal Commander. Whether there did exitt alas
papers, be could not say ; hut be* as ant
conscious they did exist. All the inaptness
which the narrative made on his. mind was, nu,
foul weather and heel winds prevented the nog
part of the armament from ess.operaling B:Ar 41,
had &zit .expected; and in this-. there 1,4„ 4
charge or imputation agaimt the gallant ()ism
who coinmanded the fleet. Ile thoeght,..huss
ever, that it woehj be too' much to call fee
every paper, private as well, as public, %thick
was in the possession of his' Majeaty.
the narrative, that coettal be regiilestil pioduced,
because it was in the suffice of. the Secretary g
State ; hut he' did nut' see. how sing Paper tbj
never was in ally of the offices of .the Germ,"
ment could be called 4nr as-awl orkial.peper; ft
the narrative which aas befura re Rause,
the Noble toed ase)
4.11
• and left 'the Ad eairal to give ' his - account-of
She maritime efilienlties .se With preseeneel them.
selves ;
.and he believed thut the; Admiral 44.
spates:lly justify:•hiniself in the state of the
Amps& sees* ":thea• wreathe& A
If thea• he t eftv:
thiklutrratise at tint time that he advised !lieu.'
swer.to the City •trf L.Mdon, what other. Sinks,
i
.1 Could tut have giiewt. Eilear, heft ‘Vesalitlit
[have advised a Cuott..slartial• asidasiikatti..4o
lOfficer, when thoc-tes. nai thaw ascii
.' .
Isim-V- -re agestion,was now; witether Ifig,llittis,
would, n the eaerel)e of its di.ieretiiin, lityls pr&
per to tail for AtteV papers as bad' pee.* Kits,
-hive moved; 'papyri', which had no character if
elfteial pion;rs about them, snit which, if they did
exist at all, were Meetly- coseitiniencatiens made
personally to his Majesty. Ile thought thelidute
would nut call for thi private and personal con.
testettications Wok's had been made to his Majesty,
aunt which could. In no sense or shape be consi-
dered as officiaj documents. . .
Mr. 'III MN E Y ably replied to the Cheat:oo
of the Exchequer,
'The CHANCELLOR of .the •EXCILFAUER
1 eXplained. . . . . •
Sir HOMR POPILA M. I feel, Sir, that ts:
less the pruposed Address. is supported 'My the
decision of this House, and that the papers al,
hided to arc produced for its consideration, and
that •of the coutitity,-meich wrong will acme
where gratitude is owed, 1 mean to Sir Richard
Strachato [hear ! hear H. I may be alted, why_
it is--I assume that such a paper is in exist. •
once ? My answer is, that its existence has net
been denied,, and therefore my assumption is car.
rect. Let any one of his Majesty's contidentid'
advisers elmy, that such a PaPer has beim deli.
vertd by the Noble Load, and the moment I as
so informed, ' I shall cease •to press the necessity of
this Address. But, in the absence of that infer.
teatime, I call upon this House to sympathiscia
the feelings of my gallant Friend, wounded. as
those feelings have been by the productiou of the
former paper. If then from that paper, SO WO
presented to the House, the Character of Sit 1116..'
Strachan has suffered, how much more prolailik •
is it, that in the pipers kept out of view, helin
been setlijecteel toe/greater 'sneering, lid au a Wire
aaravated reflectiote u pen •his. littraetee?' ran,
learn Vi italutise-it;iireir t 1 le. fro
'month of 'July an Expeditiim was „Sent to the,
coast of Holland. From some causes it did tot'
•succeed to the extent in which public espec.l3-.
'tion was warranted to indulge. 'AP ilbillg
was instituted by ' the House of Co';,
numerous papers, some moved for,. lad tall" .•
Yu:mita:ay laid np?ts its table. For 4440
days bird. the House,prouctled hilts invesdrdees,,
when Are are surprised .'by a motion of in *A.
General (Loftus), the friend of Lord Chad"
calling fur an Addresi to his Majesty, that be'
wound be pleated to order a narrative elf OWN.:
Isle Lord, delivelled but the dayttfere...ta be hil
before that House. Would it not, rola; be, •
• least more liberal,' when the Noble Lori bad le- •
termined upon such a course of preceediege !:
have, at all events, phoented it previous to the
inquiry ?—'hear, hear !) —ls that tho tlifeeV,
of suffering to which tey gallant Friends the 7.
I 'eat commander of time fate Espeditinne is .übJec
ed ? Have we not rase* to think that other dc''
eneoents, prejudicial to his high character, 11.7'
also been presented in the saute secret Parse
pear, hear !I But we are told this if ~,
1 1°
rsstitioOtiqn nut tenable uptatigoou grounds.
_..„
!this '1 uneqtlivorally reply, if i!e • other Per"..
were press dot twills Savrieisn ty the Ist-uhic LA'.

kern
16 aft.
advice.
*P. ha
Irr;
k
before
:ter
ey du
gosh
fluuiv
Cum.
ijrsty,
Cu"".