The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-07-08 00:00:00

THE •STATESMAN.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
stated, that 'being aware, that several useful altera-
tions might be made in the Auction Bill, he should
move to postpone the second reading till this day
fortnight.
Mr. SHERIDAN observed, that he had expected,
after the information sgiiicle the Chancellor of the
Exchequer bad received, that be would have post-
poned the Bill till the next Session. Had the Right
Hon. Gentleman been as ready to listen to informa-
tion on the Leather 'fax, he would not have carried
it with a majority of only 8. He trusted it would
be a lesson to the Right lion. Gentleman,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER I
would not persist iu pressing the Bill through this I
Session.
Mr. BROUGHAM congratulated the House on!
the abandonment, observing that it would have
proved an oppressive tax. It was then ordered to be
read this day two months.
Lord FOLKESTONE postponed his motion re. '
specting Captain King, till Thursday.
THE PARDON OF WALTER HALL,
Mr. TIGHE said, he did not intend to bring for-
ward his motion on this subject, as the papers had
been printed, and distributed only two days. He
wished, however, to ask a question of the Irish
Secretary. It appeared that Hall was tried and con-
demised
on the 17th of February, that he was to be .•1
executed on the 19th, and yet had not been reprieved
till the 25th.. He wished to know whether judgment '
was stayed, during this interval, on the mere act of
the Sheriff ?
Mr. W. POLE thought the question put too pe-11
remptorily, but he would inform the lion. Gentle-
man that a respite was granted in 'the first instance,
on which the reprieve was afterwards bounded.
Mr. TIGHE did not think his question peremp-
tory, [hear, hear!] and wished farther to know if
the respite was in writing ?
Mr. W. POLE said, the respite was given in con-
sequence of the representation of the Judge who
tried the prisoner; he supposed it was in writing, but
could not state particulars, as he was in London at-
tending Parliament at the time of the transaction,
and the first he heard of it, was by a letter threaten-
ing him with assassination. The man (Hall) was
now on his way to Botany Bay.
Mr. TIGHE said, that his motion called for all
the papers connected with the case of Hall, in the
possession of the Irish Government. The Order of
the House had not been complied with, as the respite
was not produced. He moved, therefore, now that
an Address be presented to the Prince Regent, for
copies of the respite, reprieve, or pardon.
Mr. W. POLE said he was convinced that all who
read the papers would allow, t: at the Executive
Government of Ireland would here been guilty of
great injustice, if they had not a:tended to the re-
presentations of the Judges. Judge Osborne, and ;
the other Judge, who tried the Pr; stated, in
letters to Sir Charles Langston, tf:eir conviction,
that the man was insane, both from his conduct at
the trial, and from other sources of information. It
appeared that the matt, when a little iithisicated, was
outrageously loyal, and completely ::,sane on that
topic, and threatened to kill every limn whom he
called a rebel. They recommended ti,at he should
be either trensported, or sent as a soldier on foreign
service.—Plear ! from th.• Opposition.]
Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that the Hon.
Gent. was anticipating the defence before the charge
was made.
Mr. W. POLE rose to order, saying, that he was
making no defence of himself.
Mr. WHITBREAD re:narked, that the lion.l
Gent. was, as usual, confounding himself with the
Lord Lieutenant. As to the threats of assassination,
he also (Mr. W.) had been threatened with death un-
less he altered his line of public conduct, but hoped
that the lion. Secretary was as far removed from it
as himself, whose assassination was put off, because
the threatener had a wife and family. The Hon. Se-
cretary had thrown out a challenge, as to the conduct
of the Irish Government : so called upon, he must j
say that he thought the Irish Government had acted .
very improperly. The Prisoner had made no plea of j
insanity, and iudeed his drunken derangement could j
not be conceived as an exhumation of his offence. It
was improper too, to recommend such a man as fit
HOUSE OF COMMONS. I for foreign service, where spirits could not be kept
from him; and he might, in his first intoxication,
Sir Tfloll,te PLUMER took the oaths, and his seat.
Mr. W. POLE moved, that there be kid before the noose, I kill some of his comrades for being less violently
Copies attic Correspondence between the Lord Lieutenant and loyal than himself. lie did not think that the subse-
*Wien' °tithe subject of the Dublin Police. Ordered.
TheLev:lat Tr..de Dill, the Wood nod Ashes Bill, and the quent conduct of the Prisoner, at the time of receiv-
Bt ,rch Bill, Ken- read a third Iliac, and passed. , ing his pardon, any proof of his insanity ; many
The Report of the Poor Returus Hilt was brought up, and the persons who had made up their minds to die received
Bill ordered us be read a third time to-morrow.
pardon with equal indiffereuce.
On the question, that the Stone Bottle Bill be committed, a
Sir SA SIC EL ROM ILLY ot;jectrd to the tau, as it would i Lord CASTLEREAGH regretted that a delay !
operate to au ine.ease of 30 per cent. price on the ankle. ! was produced on this subject, by moving for the re-
Mr. Wll A RTON interrupted the lion. and Learnt d Mena-
bee. to state, dm the Bill had been cuoiderably utteied and spite, alit! hoped that the lion. Member would bring
modified since it, flat stage, and that the;observationsof the lion. I ou ttt. cilvstion before the close of the Session, in jtis- '
wiener no longer applied. '
Sir S. • ROSI I LLY proceeded to observe, that he understood ticeto the rt.f. Government.
the tax sea not so much intended to benefit the revenue as same ' SrO F. lIURULTT thought that the [louse ought!
other rival trade, to be jealous to preserve its coutroul over the coo.
Mr. W,if A WWI snid, that the glass-bottle trade was much
Injured by the manufacture of doue-bottles, of Y quar,S, for duct of Judges, as it was one of its most useful du.
spruce beer, &c. 6 and that it was found necessary to balance. ties. lie saw no impropriety in. the present motion,
tills mischief, by an i.upusttioe laid ou those bottles.
as it might be intended to foam an impeachment of the
After a few: words from Sir C. Pitics,, Mr. Woolf. and Mr.
' MMT+R6.sD, who boned, that sudicieut dose would be al- Judges upon it. The copy of the respite was im.
lowed, before the third reading, to consider the subject more portant, to she* what was done between the 19th
fully, the Bill was committed, and the Report ordered to be re-
eel, to-morrow. and die 25th of the month. It would be important
tar.mil KTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill to remove • also to have a copy of the pardon. lie thought the
Goods from rue Buoili,:g-house to another. Hon. Member had not merited the asperity of lan-
The floti.e went iutu a Committee to consider the prevention s
of Smuggling, and rave was given to bring in a Bill. guage used by the lion. Secretary.
The NNW went into Committee on the Isle or Man trade. Mr. W. FITZGERALD trusted that the Ito-
Report to he ree.'ived to-mor, ow.
Mr. D. GIDDY brought up the report otthe Committeeon noorable Member would now bring forward the de-
the Civil Mt Expenditure. Ordered to lie 011 the table. bate this Session, in justice to himself as well as to the
Mr. WHITBREAD objected to the Printing, as an useless
11.*P, but it ita ordered. Irish Government.
Th.. loon. Bill, after being read k second time, and coos. Mr. FRENCH said a few words in favour of the
aimed, was withdrawn for amendment. , motion.
The Committees+) the Malt Bill, after same observations from
Mr. Baring, Mr. Brand, and Mr. Wharton, was podponed. Mr. MA
RTIN (of Galwa y) said , it was the first
• The Frame-work Knitters Bill was committed, the Report time he had ever heard it urged, as a matter of cOm-
received, and ordered to be taken into enatidor.ditsa rmo, I .
next. plaint point the Government, that a pardon had
The amocery Affidavit Bill was read a second time, and or- been granted, on the recommendation of the Judge
timed t., he euaimitts4 uo rauriday. : who tried the accused person. It was certainly the
Mr. BY WI brought up several Petitioss, from the parishes
of St. Pancras, SI. James, St. Andrew Uolboro, St. t' •r the constant practice at the Old Bailey. But it had been
Mutyr, and St. George EloolltaburYi apiast the Nightly Watch alleged 'the maw tried was insane ; if the fact was so,
BM. he could not be guilty of any crime. lie thought,
The SPEAKER. informed the House, that the Lords itherefore the conduct of the Judges was absurd, by
had made an alteration in the mode of rnisirg money graotio,,
, a on
In the Irish Grand Jury Presentment Bill, an altera- have
Erne
pardon. The man ought to
pardon, or none at all. Ile should,
lion which the House of Commons never allowed ; therefore, vote for the motion.
upon which Mr. PARNELL moved, that the Bill be
Mr. BROCUIIAM said
taken into farther couaideratiou this day One question;
this was a very delicate
mouths.it wig twi lest thati discussing the.cheric-
' ter of the judkittl system In Ireland. lie should,

IMPERIAL. PARLIAMENT.

HOUSF. OF LORDS, JULY 7.
Oa the Modest of Lord ERSKINE, the further consideration
of the Banbury Peerage Claim was postponed, till the 2d Tues-
day of the next Session.
The English Local NI Bata Bill and several others were brought
▪ from the Commons, and read a first time.
• The Marriage Art Amendment Bill was read dsccond time.
The Fort of LAUDERDALE moved, that the Irish Stamps
Bill be printed, wbieb was agreed to.
Lord HOLLAND gave notice, that be would, onan early
day, move the second rending oft* Kxsfficio Information Bill.
LEATHER TAX.
The Leather Tax Bill was committed.
The Duke of BEDFORD strongly ehjected to
the tar, as injurious to theagriculture of the country,
and as falling upon the poor 'more heavily than on
the rich.
Earl SPENCER followed on the same side, and
stated that he wag informed, there were about half a
million of people engaged in trades in which •this
formed the chief article ; and 18,000 were employed
In the metropolis as shoemakers. lie was told that
one-fourth of the vast number of people he had men-
tioned would be thrown out of employment, if this
tax should be agreed to. He also understood, that
by mans of this tax the Irish leather-manufacturer
Would have a great advantage in the market.
• The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that it was im-
possible to find any tax to which a plausible objec.
tion might not be stated ; but this tax was as little
objectionable as any. Th trade was a growing one,
the revenue had been increasing, and he thought the
argument as to the tax falling heavier on the poor
was put much too strongly.
Lord ROSSLYN said, he was sorry to object to
any tax brought forward at present, but this was
one of the worst that could be devised.
The Earl of ROSSE supported the measure, and
contended, that it gave no unfair advantage to Ire-
land, since, in fact, all the finer leather manufactu-
red in Ireland was imported from England.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE had never known a
tax so improvident in principle, as the one under
consideration. It seemed to be the only legacy of
the last, to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer,
which the latter chose to take. All the other mea-
sures of the late Minister had been, one by one, sa-
crificed and abandoned. [Hear n He should be glad
to know what measure of importance they had not
abandoned? [Hear!] The tax on leaher had been
often proposed, but always given up. Respecting
the manufactures of Ireland continuing much behind
those of England, he had heard of no reason, ex-
cept
the necessity of their getting oak-bark from this
country. Now, Scotland manufactured much lea-
ther, and could compete with the manufacturers of
England, yet she procured almost all her bark from
England. The Scottish trade was a young one, but
it was fast growing. The present measure gave a
bounty to the Irish manufacturers of shoes, at the
expence of the English ones. His Lordship then con-
demned the practice of bringing on such matters in a
hurry at the end of the Session, when there was no
time to discuss them fully, and received the evidence
of persons most concerned at the bar of the House.
The proposed tax, he contended, must affect the ex-
portatiun of leather, which amounted to one-fourth
of the whole manufacture in this country, and there
would be no want of skilful emigrants from hence
to Ireland. Ile seriously implored Noble Lords to
consider the matter fully, and not seed back the ma.
Iluticturers to their starving and half-employed jour-
ney men, to carry out their trade al a lose till the nest
Session gave them relief. After abandoning .their
()otters in Council, on which they stated the salva-
tion of the country depended, Ministers would have,
next year, to lament their perseverance in this tax.
The Earl of LIMERICK said, that the manu-
facture and exportation of leather had decreased in
Ireland, and as the bark must all come from Eng-
land, it could not be presumed that the Irish manu-
facturer could injure the manfacturer here. _ _

The Earl of Kosslyn and the Earl of Lauderdale
explained.
The (louse divided on Earl Spencer's Amendment,
Ism. Cowen!' • 31
- COIIIO4II . . . 12

Maji -
The Report was broughtorit u 0 Sind agreed to. The
other orders of the day were disposed of.—Adjourned.

,4,010,

therefore, vote for the subject being postponed, for
the purpose of having farther information.
Mr. TIGHE said, he never meant to ground any
charge against the Lord Lieutenant for granting
mercy; on the contrary, he thought he was right, I
and that he ought to have granted a free pardon.-- I
There was tie plea of insanity brought forward by !I
any Jury, and . he could not consider it right that a
man should be deemed insane as to the crime of
murder, and yet be punished as sane, by being trau-
sported
for manslaughterAwhich was neither more ;
nor less than saying, that he was sane as to one •
crime, and insane as to the other.
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. AVIIITBREAD, in the absence of Lord
Folkestone, and at his request, postponed the motion,
' which his Lordship had previously in the course of
the evening put off to Thursday, to Tuesday next.
Mr. TIGHE moved, " That the notes of the '
Judges in Ireland en the trial of Walter Hall, Esq.
'for murder, in February last, be laid before the
House."—Agreed to
The Report; on the Local Tokens, and the Commercial Credit •
r Bills were deferred till to-morrow.
Lord NEN ARK brought up a Petition from cerain_perums
in the town of Nottingham. against the Framc-work K slaters
Bill, which was ordered to iu referred to the Committee on the
Bill.
EAST INDIA LO.AN.

After some conversation about postponing Mr. Creevey's mew
tioa to a future day,
Mr. CR Ea:VIA said. that he thought it would he better now
to bring it forward, and he should oiler his Resolutions, the first
of which was, " that it appeared to the Hoop, that at the time
of mixing the Act of the a:id of his Majesty, the revenues of the
Cantina'', were 6,91.10,0Ju1. and apaaids. and that it ;yrs then
stated, that after payeasau of all civil, military, and co umercial
expellees, and also the interest of the India debt, there a reila
be a clear surplus of 1,059.12;1. annually." He also read a
number of other Resolutions, one of which was fur the granting
of half* million annually to the Treasury of this cantata.
Mr. WALLACE said, he teas ready to admit, that the finan-
cial affairs of the Company were now worse Wan in 1;93, and
that many of the hopes which were then ecteriained, had nut
been realized I but as the calculation at that time was on peace
arrangements, and the ( u,Epany had been estaaged iu ears al-
most ever since, the co:alias' tow was not fair. law reset:tie in
1793 aid about 7 millions, and the present revenue was sixteen
millions. It the debt was at that time se*en millions, and is now
twenty-eight, it should be recollected, that the assets, which
were then 'even millions, now amount w taenty-four millions.
The deterieration, theretore, in the financiiii atfairs of the Coni-
pally, was but four millions In their e peediture, it must be
recollected, that not only there had been a roasiderable increase
io the number of the military, but iu the es pence at which they
were supported. There was also a gnat increase of ex peace in
the jodicial department. The Company, in its wars with
pou Saib, and the alahrattas, and in estirpating. the French
force from India, had been fighting the battles of tins country in
India. Ile concluded by moving the previous question un
Creevy's resolutions.
Mr. R. TIIO it N TON followed on the sante side. •
Lord A. lIA NI I ETON thought it was a novel proceeding to
grant money to the. Company out of the loan of the year, 'and to
charge the Interest on the Consolidated Fund.
Mr. GRANT objected to the resolotious.
After asisort reply from Mr. CREEL LiY, the previous tries-
tion was put, and carried on all his resolutions. •
The East India Lean Bill was then read a third time.
Mr. Wll ITHR.EAI) begged leave to put a question to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. He wished to know whether he
had any other tax tat Prolapse, in lieu of that which he had this
night given notice or ens intention to withdraw.
' The CHANCLLLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not wish at
present to propose any tax as a (lamentation far it, as he still
hoped that he a ould be able to bring it forward in a form wore
acceptable to th..• public, and freer from objections.
After a few words from Lord A. II AaiILTON, a division
took place, whet there appeared,
For the 3d reading, 50—Agaiast it, s—Majority 45.
The Bill was then read and passed.
I RIM TITH Ea.

Mr. PA KNELL moved the Order of the Day for the second
reading of the Bill to exempt portions of land attached to cot-
tage* in Ireland, employed to the growth of putatoe:, from the
payment of tithes.
Sir W. SCOTT opeosed the' principle of the 818. lie con-
tends'd that tithes were as much the property of the laborious
Clew, as the rents of land were the property ut tudividuals ;
and it the Hon. Member (Mr. Parnell as anxious to relieve
the cottager% in Ireland, he could do it much inure effectually,
and quite as justly, by bringing in a Bill to provide that they
should pay nu rent to the landlords. He moved that it be read a
second time on this day three months.
Mr. BtltllAsl supported the Bill, on the ground that some
alteration was necessary. With regard to the laborious Clergy
of Ireland, he thought that their engagements were much less
arduous than those of the Chards in England. Many of those
who received large tithes had no flocks, their cure being com-
posed of Papists. He believed that the exactions were often
very severe; and Sir John Newport, on a tanner night, had
mentioned one case of eculiar bardsnip 4111 cruelty on the part
of a Clergyman.
Mr. HAWKINS BROWN voke on the opposite side.
Lord DYSART vindicated the Cler4y of Ireland, from a
, charge he conceived to 41.1.VC been brats; st akiinst theta by Mr.
Barham, insisting that the people ut Ireland were deeply in-
debted to them for many of :.uesr comforts. Although be was of
opinion that the tythes toughs not to be wholly abolished ; yet
be was friendly to a well digested plan of commutation by
winch much benefit would result to the !mar of Ireland.
Mr. BA RBA M explained.
Mr. TRENCH having resided many ye:srs In Ireland, and be-
ing well acquainted with toe real Lituation of the peasantry of
his native country, wished to give surue information on the sub-
ject to the Douse. Toe Ilumoirable Member then proceeded ill
sEttail to the Howe the many hardships Isis poor countrymen en-
dured, particularly with retard to tithes, nod expressed his de-
torm;nas sun to vote for the Bill, since it would aff.srd them some

Lord CASTLEH.F.AGII professed his willingness and anxiety
to promote the happioess of the Irish labourers as inuch as possi-
ble, but he could not unison that it shoat! be &Are in the way
recenmended by this Bill, which was lit)ing the axe to the rout
of individual and onalienable property.
Mr. TIGHT: asserted, that the Clergy in general in the Sister
Kingdom bud cuailiaxatively little or no duties to discharge, and
be enlarged upon thr hardship endured by the Homan Catholic
cottagers, who were compellea to pay tithes though they received
no spiritual instruction, nod the only ceremouy of the church
which they attended, was uppeariug when cited before the Bi- i
shop's Court. He insisted, that the Bill now proposed was not
unprecedemed, and he gorged three Acts of the Irish Parlia
smut, to sbew that iienefits to the injury of individual property.;
bad been dune to the higher classes. lie did not see why souse .
mode of indemnifying the rich clergy could not be resorted to,:
bet first he wished that the pour peasant should be relieved front
troonre,usable burden.

Lord OY .ART exiiliined.
Mr. REItN ARO opposed the second reading of this Bill. 1
Mr. Wli ITBREAD iinpressed upon the House the impolicy
of imposing this burden upon the Catholics, since it only served
to sow the seeds of dissension between them and the Establish •
meat. lie dwelt with much force upon the general di,advan-
tage resulting to agriculture from the tithing system in England
and Ireland, and recommended that the subject should be seri-
ously examined. lie thutiOit the cundi Mu of the Irish pea-
santry miserable in the extreme, and quoted the opinion of a
Mend with whom he travelled in Poland, who was of opinion
that tie Polish vassals were in a preferable state.
The ATTOR N EY-GENERAL denied the existence of the
precedents alluded to by Mr. Tighe, and generally opposed the
Bill, as the elect, he conceived, would he to lead to a general
attack upon the revenues of the church in England as well as in
Ireland. .
Lord JOCELYN said, that on a former night a Right lion.
Baronet (Sir J. Newport) had read a document to the I louse,
stated to be iu the hand-% riOug of the Reverend Mr. filorgau.
an Irish clergyman, in which' it was stated that this gentleman
had refused to allow the tenoots of cottages to dig their potatoes
before the season, lest he should lose a portion of his tythe, al-
though they were absolutely iseemanry fur the maintenance of
the ilily of •the peasant. lilt Lorrhthip now produced and
rend an affidavit from Mr. Morgan's Praetor, denying the fact.
The Reverend Gesaleinan was on his way to London, to justify
his conduct.
Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that the hand-writing of Mr.
Morgan tu the statenaeut read by Sir Juhu Newport was out
After a few words from Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Parnell re-
plied at considerable length, and Mr, Mame expresied himself
In favour of the Rill.
1 The question was then pat, sad the Amendment was carried
without a division, that the Bill be read a second time on this
day three months. it was uot.
The Starch Rill misreads tided ly
dadthrown Passed-
Adiaaraed at eleven o'clock.

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