The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-02-16 00:00:00

..,noryt re-
kting e Qoestr from the
Liturgy : and fur the Copy of a Letter written by Lord
• Sidnionth to Colonel florflon respeellow the arrest.
Lord GLENARCHT said, thatilie question was so
folly and so clearly hronght bellito the HOW, Alt,
little was left for him to say. Thi Order in Ctonficilt
appeared to him to be a bred ek of the lithdamentel
principles of the Church of tik otiand—(llear, hear.)—
The Chureh of Scotland admits of no tempera) head ;
it diselsinof all authority in its discipline, or in the
internal regulation of its affairs. Every man ac-
artaintrfl with the history of that country, knew the
struggles that were ntade---•hose long the people cons
,tended, by word and act, until it length they esti-
Hished that right, which they thought worthy MI
light and bleed for--,s(Hear, hear.)—That right sr*
at length secured for Scotland, and was guarantelid,
at the Union. The Order in Council, so loudly
and so justly condemned in Seotland, affected %-
Kroll considerations of religion4send, Mt might add,
principles of justice, as well as of policy. lie was
afraid that no good reason or motive could be assign-
ed for bonier( such order. Was it to promote the
welfare of the country ?--(Hear,)—was it to uphold
the dignity of the Crown?--{Near,)—was it to pro-
mote the puriiy of religion'—{Hear.) He endeavour-
ed to weigh it by those tests, and he could find no
motive to justify the measure ; he could find no mo-
tive, save the gratification of uncharitable feelings,
and the workings of a vindictive and odious spirit
atainst her Majesty.
The LORD ADVOCATE said, that with respect
to the Church of Scotland, he did not dispute its rights
or independence, always maintaining that it was under
authority to the law. Perhaps it would be enough for
him on the present question, to say, that the Order in
Council was consistent with the uniform practice of
one hundred years; that would be a fair defence, but
Fe did not mein to rest there. He contended that the
Orderin Council was grounded upon and upheld by
law. He grounded the legality of the measure on the
10th of Anne, chap. 7. sec. 10. by which it was enacted,
that Queen Anne and the Princess Sophia should be
PcpresOy prayed for byname. The legal question be-
fore the House was, whether that.' Act applied n
ff,,erely to Queen Anne and the Princess Sophia, or
whether it extended to every future Sovereign and
heir Apparent? The legality 'night in some degree
be judged by the Orders la Council which were issued
in the life time of Lineal Anne. The Princess So-
phia, after the passing of the Act of the 10th of Anne,
arid during the 11* time of her illajesty, died, upon
which an Orden tit Council was issued without any
amendment if the Act, or without the passing of any
r .9r law upon the subject, substituting the name of the
Plellor of Brunswick; that motion was dated the
2191 ,if Jnos, 1714. On the death of Anne a new
order in Council was issued, and flee name of lieoege
tle First, without any new law on the subject, was,
prayed for in the place of the deceased Queen. and so
the rattier went on during the succeeding reigns.
foe Learned Lord then cited the cases of various (Now
j-sring) Clergymen in Scotland, who had been indicted
under the statute of Queen Anne ; and proceeded to'
*hew that down to the present day, with two solitary
receptions, whenever, by Order in Coital!, any al-
teration was made in tit: Liturgy of the Church a,
Englittl, -anothe Order was sent down to the Church
of Scotieud. The Order in this case directed merely
the general act of praying for King George the Fourth
and Hoye! Tensity: and they would find the Govern-
ment completely jnatified in point of law, in issuing
this order. The °Met was to pray for the King—but
it did alt •hea'. in what terms the King was to be
prayed forif there was a burn fide prayer for the
King, that was it fine compliance with the act. lie
was modem adinit farther, if any Clergyman prayed
for Kinglisorge, be *as not excluded from also psay-
ing for any branch of the Royal Family by is mic—
a he chose to do so, he might pa? for the Queen
sterniaariat. He • said this would not he
if the Noble Lord said that this was the general prat.
tke of the Ministers of the Church of Scotland, he
was prepared w deny that it was so. Instead of nine-
tenths. of . the Clergy of Scotland praying for the
.Queen by same, he would say the calculation was di.
cctly the reverse. lie certainty approved of the con
'loci of those who did not pray for the Queen; if
they did nut do so, they gave no opinion of
their own, they made thetuseive• no parties in the
political question that agitated the country; batl
when au inuividual went beyond this anti prayed fur the
Queen by tissue, he prone/lewd an opinion of his own—
he intruded hi% own political opinion on his conger
"ethos, in a place whence political sentiments ought
to be etrinded. He would shortly allude to certain
proceedings in the Stewartry of Kirkritarirht: The
proceedings tot the Kirk Session were quite distinct
from the other case alluded to by the Noble Lord.
Ile thought die proceedings of the Kirk Session un-
wise, foolish, and illegal; but what had happened ?
'flee Presbytery, a higher tribunal than the Kirk Ses-
sinn, not only rescinded its proceedings as illegal, but
ordered them to be erased from the Session-leook.-
1
lee.petweeslinge against the Chaplain of a yeomanry
cow lead nottiag to do with those if the Kirk Sea
sign.. nod ,they were at different times. The Com-
manderstfo yeomanry corps in the Stewartry of Kirk-
c.olbright, c.snsidered that the Chaplain of that corps
twilit not to pray for the Queene as the doing so would
h•alte gives dispiesance to the maps ; and he had asl-
dressed a • Utter to a certain Clergyman Of Not
S%cwartryidesirinn M keeper whether. if tailed to pre.
term the d.sy of. Ohsplsa to the Kieltendbriglk to;
man ry, lso wedid or would not 'pray for the Queenly
The tolloplailkffid sot give alletplicit answer.. He ,
came 4isCre, aid he prayed Ise dm Qom nossimtian,
his ',tonging to his quarters, it was 'stint
to hie br emstmonsling slim% that Ms Awls&
• alder sews I he soli him. h• p 1
. . - * fi•

against the Commending. Offioer :it had been g-
gested to him, from various quarters, that it would be
better that the alt it should be settled by reference.
This respsetable individual declined making a re-
ference to env one, but the intlisitlitai who was now
addressing thent. He had said to the Clergyman,
that he was the last individual to whom such ere,
ferrate ought to lw made. The Clergyman, bows
ever, having perais:ed, hr had ercepted the referee**.
The award was not vet prononneell, but the business
was finished as tar as the public was concerned. !le
submitted to the Ilonse,therefere, th it no grenntl.had
I been stated fur brintine the matter before Putliament.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, be was relieved ftetn
addressing the Home on the subject of the general
'principles of this case, by the speech of his Noble
Friend (Lord A. II.), and the .perch, so full urpro-
miss, of the Noble Lord (tilenorchy), who seconded
the motion with such peculiar proprioty ; for his name
I(Campbell) was mitnerted with every struggle for the
civil and religious liberties of Scotland. It was with
peculiar FatkfAction that lie now saw the two families
who had led formerly the opposite parties of that
country, this night exhibiting the same constitutional
jealousy on the sulmject of the invasion of these liberties.
He would take the liberty, however, of filling ep a part
of the outline of his Noble Friend. Ile woukl go no
farther back than the period of the revolution. 'I he
very first Act of the Convention Parliament declared
Prelacy one of the grievances of time kingdom, and one
of the articles of that Church so approved of by the
Convention was, that it had no bead on earth. fie
was not now inquiring whether this was a convenient
doctrine for a church to hold ; but the Conventi-m
Parliament took a clierelt into its alliance, with such a
confession of independence. This establishment of the
church was continued by the Act of Union ; and the
first act of every Sovereign on his accession to the
Throne was, to swear that he would preserve the
Church of Scotland as by law eatahlished. It was
a fundamental law of Scotland, that the Church should
be independent of any temporal bead.—{clear.)
With respect to the statute of Queen Anite, be should
not easily he led to adopt a soustrtiction of that Act,
at variance with the Article of Religion of the Scottish
Church. Every statute which differed Nom a law fun-
damentally alcred, should be examined according 'n
the strictest laws of constructi sn, errteefergret je,
The Learned Oentlentan then Were& isto the history
of the Church of Scotism', and of the casts cited by
the Lord Advocate, and clearly sheaved that the statute
of QtteSn Anne was made not to effect the Pres-
hyterian Church, hut the Episcopalian Church of
Scotland. With respect to the case before him
the order issued to the Church of Scotland
was in time saute term' as that to the Church of
f?.neland and it was certainly uutleretnoil by the
whole hotly of the Church of i:ngland, as an *Order
not to pray for the Queen by name. What then was
the natural conatruction to be put upon fhb.' Order.
but that the Church of Scotland were commanded is
the sante manner to omit the name of the Queen?
But the Kint was not the head of the Church in Scot-
land, there was no act of uniformity which could
apply to Scotland, and the statute of the 10th or
Anne gave no authority to urdet the omission of any
name. The !.earned Lord admitted, that that partik
the Order in Council which referred to the !3:t Oesa.
111. was a gross aheardity. It was neither more net
less than an injunction to the Presbyterian Clergy to
comply with an Art, which was made for the relief of 1
the Episcopal Clergy of Scotland; anti an injnaction
which, he apprehended, was not likely to be obeyed
by the tamest and moat mitigated disciples of John
Knox. Ills Majesty'. Ministers had in fort com-
manded the Presbyterians of Scotland to follow
fortortla contained in time Liturgy of the Church al
England, against which Liturgy their ancestors
had so lung, and at length so totecesefully struggled.
The Learned Lord in fact admitted, that in spite
of this Order in Council, ever: Clergyman in Scotland
might if he thought tit. pray for time Queen by name :
but no Clergyman in England could venture to pray
fur the Queen ; what then was to be ieferied from
this difference, hut that an order, which was ?Wang.
in England, had no force whatever in Scotland;' anJ
that Ministers had advised his Majesty to eirionte his
Royal commands to be set at defiance, and his Royal
authority to he insulted and eanteroaesl ? It wits too
each tu.say that this was an insignificant question in
Jtt self, but as s lineation altaning the rights oft the
Church of Scotland it was of the highest importance.--
As to any arguments for the interference of she clown'
*it It those rights founded upon usage, he was prepared 1
treat them with the wino:. contempt, and ill
ug be should be justified by the ,course which had
:Wen taken by courts of law in this eunotry.
The Learned Lord had asked whether this usage were
nut a justification of his Majesty's Ministers? and
certainty if this had horn a question as to any cri-
minal proceeding against them, usage might have keen
a sufficient reason fur abstaining from such a proceed-
ing. But the Learned Lord considered the issuing of
the Order as a legal exercise of authority, and be,
seemed to rely upon the tleneral Assembly not Wing
opposed it. There were various modem of rending a.
proposition trith..et directly opposing it, and the
Oeneral Assembly had in this respect imitated thneon.
duct of a morn- illustrious body, which
freinently to support measttres whisk
conscientioasly approve. They had
negatived the Resolution condetur'
of the Crows, Tent they passed
FFlt the censure upon
„.. round that the
t
hostile to the
2rws..l so doubt, extremely
esserve. when,* mew' r,
"rrtr•-.7

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begged
that not in
merely to redress a private injury, but they were bout
to inquire whether an act of oppression had not been
committed Its consequence of an Order having hern
issued, which, to say the least of it, was useless
and nugatory. Upon these grounds he thought the
motion of his Noble Friend was perfectly justifiable.
lord CASTLEREAGH said, that so little impres-
sion had heeti'made on the speech of his Honourable
and Learned (the Lord Advocate), that it would be
wasting the time of the douse, if he called their atten-
tion to snore than one or two leading features of this
'subject. lie ;honied that a great part of the speech
et be Honourable awl Learned Gentleness oppmite
(Sir James Mackiatoch), was bat 111 adapted to the
occasion, and be could nut help suspecting :that he
would not have introduced so touch recondite matter
into his speech as the origin sad iadependence of the
ecclesiastical institutions of Scotland, if he had not
come down to the House under the impression that he
should heave to defend them against some greater in-
road, than what bad bsen abewn by his Hen. and
Learned Friend (the Lord Advocate), to be supported
by a streatu of decisions of the highest authority. Ile
would pi. it to the candour of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, whether be bad any conception that so
complete all answer would have bees gives to the air-
cuments .spun which the motion of the Noble Lord was
(minded ? The Noble Lord had brought two cases
of inuli,iJnal grievances, and upon these he haul at-
tempted to found a charge against the Uuverninent.
Ile protested against the principle of tusking that
din rte the tribunal for the investigation of private
wrongs. lie trusted that the result of this motion
would be a lesson to the Noble Lord and others who
brought c_ses of this description before the House,
not fur the purpose of obtaining justice far the indi-
viduals, hut to pro.luce irritation, and poison the
public mind. Both the grievances which the Noble
Lard had thcught proper to loin before the House of
Commons had been settlel and redressed by the local
authorities of the country. In the cue of the Chap-
lain of the Yeomanry, Government bad distinctly de-
clared that it was not a case in which they would in-
terfere. With respect to the Order is Council, Govern-
ment had, in issuing it, done no more than what had
heen uniformly practised since Ike Act of Anne.—
After the arguments of his Honourable and Learned
Friend, he (Lord C.) was perswailetthat the Noble
Lord opposite must feel tltat his motion had
fallen from his haled:. The flunonroble and !Aliened
tiesitle.van (Sir J. Mackintosh) had said, that the
liberty of the Church of Scotland was in clanger;
hut he (Lord C.) must be permitted to say, that this
motion, as well at many other motions on the 'tidied
of the Queen, was introduced for any purpose rather,,
than that of tranquillizing the country. The argu-
ments of his Honourable and Learned Friend (the'
Lord Advocate), ns far as lie (Lord C.), with his
unlearned mind was capable of judging of a legal'
argument, were perfectly clear and unanswerable.
The Noble Lord then read the clause of the Aet
of the :hod Geo. 111. for Regulating the Prnyers of
the Epieropallari Church of Scotland, by abide, hg
contended, it was manifest, that praying for the
Quern by name was not necessary for the Church
of Scotland. The dame directed that the Mar.
bis helm and successors, should be prayed for by
name in such manlier as should be directed by lawful
anthority.—(llevir, from the Opprasition).--ite was
aware, that it might be conteeded that this lawful
authority must he the same as that is the Act of
Uniformity. The construction contended for in the
Act of Uniformity wita. however, in his opinion, illegal.'
He wonld put it Into the House, whether the Noble Lord
had made out any reasonable ease for the productiom
of the information which his motion eonglit for ?
He repeated his conviction, that the Noble Lord must
himself feel that the case had heen completely, though
unexpectedly, taken from under Lim.
Mr. J. P. (IRANI' supported the motion. The
present was a grave charge, he said, against his Mee
jetty's Minktouri, for they haul committed the name of
their Sovereign to :t document which they themselves
admitted to he aboard and nugatory. It was impoe-
eible to ascribe their condnet. in issuing the Order is
Council, to any other motive than an impotent desim
to coaqinwitise the character of the Queen. • •
'"!--31r.„11AXW ELL salt', he had beard with astonish-
meat the declaration of the Noble Lord (Casthereagh)
in which he aacrileed to the. Noble Lord who larousio
forward this motion an attempt to poison the public
mind. He considered the Issuing of the Order in
Council as the Arguel of a system of upon,
the rights and privileges of the Church of Scotland.
Lord cAsTLEKRA(II4 explained. He disclaimed
any intention of imputing improper motives to the
Noble Loral, bet lie.rertainly thought the, the bring-
ing of individual grievances before that House had a
most pernicious effect, in impeding the pablie business,
and tending to irritate tin' public mind.
Lord A. HAMILTON brit* replied. If the Art
of Queen Anne was atilficient for their pupal.% why
was; the Oviler• in.• Coattail issued ; the arguments of
the case hail been uso ably disposed of by his lion.
Friend, en so !!cuts him sotttiOg to add. If the liters
euption of aline night, assumed by his Majesty's MI-,
they.posseas a rightful power to
oflikosloakohould -to that coon-

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fire with the conscientious discharge of his ditties. A dor ,
.0. .ii 1. 0 ... t. t .i.. -a The Leatoed Lo guild, }at they Mind,
Dery be would beg, that the House would reflect for lalie 1. 111 li it •t th Wen'. .; t t s, Id a n from mentioning the ' ett's mime wereislivide
moment on the situation in which that unwise an. as ,1 er 'Mtn fti • ar tw le e i ,r: of • j: so that upon his principles, to be of !pi Noble
gal Order placed the Clergy of Scotland. Ifs Alia fe-
,lsted that Order, he Ira% to be placed under militaty ar• ... -.........-.
was ill:atter% tilotw three_ sceekeiffer A beAtialti parts. tvaa.to.bsof tbs Duty aiLthe eourt.—(A lanifh.) not al
rest ; under arrest, ;veriest-he would not pray acconl- now in ~nen nts of Ilavernment were, with This was surely a singular recipe for impartiality. He laws ii
resp.ct to the poi dr. The tlittititailei lea& 1140"1- Oh °Oleg 'ls msai
ing to the word of command. Either the Clergymen siltontirki If there were not . repreh
shonidattojetiser neglect the Order of Council, or he ronnieation to him alit LiirkAdrockc), and alsa to, considerabbusumberof Clez4tyulca, even in that chows trial.%
-,. • • a the insrpooll- IMPWrettlivir-estestrOglintk the Toni. Lieutenant of the llbotnty, and by the Lprd seat of po.likieat independence-0i laugh)---who might morall
to pnhlic odittm. and the I?ty character. The Noble iientenalso irmvintnniestion 'st'a made t,• the Hotne censitler the digislebsdre of the Noble Lord oppoeite of sculpt
Lett neat stated, that the od object of.bis motion
• ----v- SeggetorPr The-angler'. retnnied wo, .'• that tribe 'quite irbtßlllbsp_offebee as the construction dr all Act ciples
wegi the prooloetion shirr eta ' rom 'Aro ~ ,
sw„,eati,. „Tine/an eemsioisee a tha latest; The lams worotenant had not recommended any steifs, en of Parliament,. :ffe Wa* perfectly teatly.to bear testi- of the
Noble Lad said, that
at
pr otisoupoilos, to wbieh, steps should he taken." floyerstneet having the. ninny to'thocharacter and abilities of the I,earned proles
however, he would oot.at piosolt allot* awl etniriadod refused 10 in/wrote, awl allowed the indicidaals to Lord opposite; and for the settlement of auy question try he
by Moving for a copy of
of ()act in Caacil, disectod settle the Giant *WNW tifent!el..4l: there was nn Par- in which private interests were involved, he believed it elect
to the Lien
Assembly the Chureh of Scotland, re- liantentary ground for imptiring into it. The clerey- would he 'impossible t's find a more judicious and would
la
to the erasye.sof_ the Qnett's name from the man had threatened f w settle time to bring an action honourable umpire. He begged to remind the House, part;
__e _ I ....1.1.......ift0n by Lord . ~_ ~..____A.,,,,, 1 bffica,, : it had been Isng. however, that they
..7.7,...r.t1i,i,..y.th, toffs case,e cwalelreedbourndis ptic.t.oissut

hotly, which was Itswera, order thoGioserk otikoilasatt.ohoold go tothat coon- ii4l
Nees which they dW. go! ,thy. he.foired the Howse •Wattisi . lament that owls as b,,
They had tot, lowest% ilitenseetotiao "wear made: The Noble Lord had ap
mdemniNg this laterforosse that eight areatooed weak* as latootadow. the meat th
kiPit 06 very ItesolsOhliciettywilistiginiONw tisarctre,htit coot csicloccliswel
Lzi, i
his Majesty's MiaieleesovA ao bant hies Ilse Nubia lowed had ,
artier was issued wititopt 411.41 A, listaillos) sad his Hoastarable w
the Church of 5c0114114. 1110116.0tocueli ithwwiths timbals patens the peddle
.ly mousiest to item p .If there was sae matt is that House who bad iv
*mew of do4t.follogality, allasweeetr titiog to itie paws, so poises the public
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