The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-04-08 00:00:00

STATE OF THE STREETS

Mr. Alderman EARLE wished to call the particular atten-
tion of the Finance Committee to the state of the streets.
On a former occasion he had endeavoured to get the paving
board placed under the council, because if that were so, he
was sure the streets would be maintained in 'much better
Order than they were ; and as the council paid a large sum or
money for the repairing of streets, they were in duty hound
to see that those streets, particularly the great thoroughfares,
were not suffered to remain in their present state. There
was London-road, from Russell-street to Lime-street, there
was Mount Pleasant, there was Leece-street, from the church
to the new road in Berry-street, there was Brownlow-hill, and
last of all Lord-street itself, in all of which there never was
such execrable pavements anywhere as were to be found in
those streets. They were disgraceful to the town, and he
hoped therefore that the Finance Committee would direct
their surveyor to examine them. No experiments were ever
made in Liverpool with the view of endeavouring to improve
the public pavements as in Lonclon iindeed experimente
were made in every great town in the kingdom except Liver-
pool. Certainly a trifling experiment had been once made
opposite the Athenaeum ; the pavement then put down had
never been removed to this day, and he believed it was good
still.

Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE was rather surprised at the at-
tack made by the worthy alderman upon the Paving Board,
because wherever the corporation had any paving work to
do, they were very glad to apply to the Paving Board to do
it for them. If he would attend the board himself he would
soon see that he knew nothing about the subject.
Mr. Alderman 4111,g.--1 judge from llavmg seep them,
Mr. Jo4N HolmEs recommended Mr. Earle to apply
to the vestry for an increased rate before he ventured upon
making these complaints. The Highway Board were in debt;
and they had always spent their funds in the best possible
way.

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Then we ought to spend more.
Mr. PROCTOR said the Finance Committee had nothing to
do with the works of the Highway Board.
Mr. BIRKETT was by no means surprised that Mr. Alder-
man Earle should have made this attack upon the Highway
Board ; but he ought to have given notice of his intention of
doing so. Considering that there were twelve members of
the council, one of whom was the chairman of that board,
common courtesy should have suggested to him the propriety
bf giving notice of his intention.
Mr. EARLE.—I will take a lesson from Mr. Birkett in the
art of politeness, and in future I will give notice. (Laughter.)
Mr. GLADSTONE was glad that Mr. Earle had mentioned
this subject, for he was quite sure the streets were not in the
state they ought to be. The only remedy was to bring them
before the notice of the public.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.-1 did it with that view.
Mr. GLADSTONE, in continuation, said that what the
Chairman of the Paving Board (Mr. John Holmes) had
stated was true : they wanted money to carry on improve-
ments, and they were also in debt; but at the same time he
(Mr. Gladstone) contended that they were proceeding upon
a wrong principle. Most of the streets that Mr. Earle had
named were not safe for people on horseback. He confessed
lie did not want to see legislation in favour of one class or
another ; but he must say, that nine-tenths of the streets of
Liverpool were not safe. He hoped that some material
change would soon be made.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said his object was answered by this
discussion.
The proceedings of the committee were then confirmed.

LEASES

The DEPUTY TOWN-CIERK read a list of the leases which
had been granted within the pclst month, and on the motion
of Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE they were confirmed,
IMPROVEMENT COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS.

The, DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK read the proceedings, resolu-
tions, and reports of the Improvement Committee.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY proposed, and Mr. H. HOLMES
seconded, a motion for their confirmation.
Mr. LLOYD, in allusion to a portion of the report con-
taining resolutions touching the improvement bill, said he had
formerly made some observations on tne clauses in the bill
empowering the council to appropriate property for improve-
ment. He objected to this power being given, because at the
very moment, perhaps, when a person had made a purchase
of property which he intended to use for business purposes,
this clause, which he had never dreamt of, might, without no,
tice, be brought into operation ; the corporation might dis.
cover that such property was in the line of an intended im.
provement, and he might be compelled to give it up. 'They
might only require a portion of such property, and might
leave an useless remainder on the hands of the proprietor.
They ought to be bound to take all the property if they took
any. in cases of new improvement bills which affected the
rights of possessors of property, the latter had ample notice,
beccause they were defined by the schedule, but by this bill
they might be taken without any notice whatever. He would
move that the matter be referred to the committee back again
for consideration.
Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE objected to the clauses in ques-
tion, because he thought they might be made instruments of
injustice. He thought it was dangerous to place such power
in the hands of the council. He seconded the motion.
Mr. EVANS objected to all observations tending to imply
that injustice was more likely to govern the future acts of the
council than justice. He had every confidence in the council
of the present day, as well as in those which were to come,
and he would recommend that in all cases they should legis-
late boldly, and with the utmost confidence that all their suc-
cessors would act justly.
Mr. BARCLAY said the subject had had full cojksideration in
the committee, and they came to the conclusron that it was
advisable to go for the clauses.
Mr. EARLE would be very sorry to see those clauses obli-
terated. He was confident that no injustice would be done,
and the clauses would prevent the repetition of great injustice
to the corporation, which had had to pay large sums of the
public money unjustly.
Mr. BIRKETT said Mr. Lloyd had alluded to the opposition
which these changes would probably occasion. It was better
to settle the matter here, and not to run the risk of opposition
hereafter.
The TOWN-CLERK explained that the clauses applied only
to houses which had been burned or pulled down, or which
were intended to be re-built, and which were, at the same
time, in the line of a projected improvement. All these
matters were necessary before the clauses could come into
operation, and on the occasion of any dispute or difference
reference must be made to a jury.
Mr. BUSHELL said the Town-clerk's explanation was per-
fectly satisfactory.
The TOWN-CLERK said Lord Shaftesbury, who was the
great authority on matters of this nature, had expressed his
approval of the clause.
Mr. Lloyd's proposition was taken as an amendment on
the motion that the proceedings of the committee be con-
firmed.
The council divided on the amendment, when there appeared
For the amendment
Against it
The amendment was consequently lost. 35
The following members voted on the division :
For the amendment—Messrs. Copeland, J. Lawrence,
Wood, Birkett, Procter, Lloyd, Parker, Bramley-Moore,
and Molyneux.
Against it—Messrs. Shaw, Shand, Houghton, Thornhill,
Preston, H. Holmes, Mellor, J. Holmes. Bolton, Bright,
Rae, Priestley, As mall, Yates, Robinson, Cooper, Bushell,
Gladstone, Rigby, Kilshaw, Brassey, J. Smith, G. H. Law-
rence, Jordan, Platt, Holt, Bulley, Freme, Evans, Barclay,
Earle, Nicol, Turner, and the Mayor.
WATCH RATE.
The TOWN-CLERK read the calculation of the new watch
rate. The average account for seven years for Liverpool was
£8,527 12s. Id. The Liverpool assessment is £952,321.
The rate, which upon this amount yields the sum nearest to
the average is 2d. and 7-47 the in the pound, which in the
assessment give £8,526 19s. 2d. The assessment for Kirk-
dale is £18,191. which at 2d. and 7-47ths gives £162 18s. 10d.
The assessment for Everton is £58,224, which yields
£521 6s. Bd. The assessment for West Derby is £45,534,
which yields £407 14s. 2d. The assessment for Toxteth
Park is £106,890, which yields £957 ls. Bd. Total,
£10,576 ls. Id.
Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE, seconded by Mr. PROCTER,
moved the above rate. Agreed to.
Mr. COOPER said, out of 7,000 rate-payers of Toxteth
Park, .not more than 1100 or 1200 had paid. He would ask
the Town-clerk, if, after letting matters go in this way, it was
legal to levy for the arrears on those who were willing to pay ?
The TOWN-CLERK said they looked to the overseers of
the poor of the township, and might have levied on their
goods and chattels long since. They appeared to be suffering
through their improper misconduct in bygone years. He
could not take upon himself to direct them as to their pro-

Ceeaings, respecting which they must consult their own legal
adviser.

• -- •
Mr. COOPER said it came rather hard upon the " willing

A MEMBER remarked that
very " willing horse."

Mr. Cooper did not appear a

MARKET COMMITTEE.
In the report of the market committee, a
resolution ap-
peared, authorising the sale of hay and straw in the London-
road, on payment of the usual toll. It was also set forth
that it had been resolved to erect sheds for the protection of
produce in the North Haymarket.
Mr. GLADSTONE wished to know whether it was intended
to raise the rents in St. John's Market.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said, what was intended was to make a
general revision of the rents.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought they were not bound to exact to
the uttermost farthing for the rents in the market, and
especially at a period when business was known to be in a
very depressed state. He urged this as one reason against
any change ; but there was another and a still moreimport-
ant one, namely, that in proportion as the rents of the stalls
in the markets were increased, a direct premium was offered
for the removal of the business of those stalls, to shops in
the streets ; and, therefore, to that extent manifestly injuring
the property of the corporation. He trusted, therefore, that
no change would be made.
Mr. EVANS was, if it were in order, prepared to justify
the raising of rents in St. John's Market.
The Nr&yolt said, this question was not before the council.
Mr. EVANS said, he would content himself with observing,
that a butcher had given to another in the same trade £lOO
for being allowed to go into one of the shops in the market.
With respect to Mr: Gladstone's observation, if the public
wanted shops in other places, they had no right to do any
thing that would prevent it.
Mr. THORNHILL expressed strong disapprobation of the
scheme for allowing hay and straw to be sold in London-road
After expending £20,000 in the formation of new hay-mar-
kets, such a measure was preposterous. They would have
to drive away a stand of coaches; and, after all, they could
not find room for many loads of hay or straw. He did not
agree either with the erection of sheds for housing hay or
straw. Produce ought to be brought to the market to be
sold, not to be stored ; and if they offered facilities for doing
so, they would enable the farmers to raise the prices. Such
sheds would be a losing concern ; for they would cost £6OO,
and they would not bring in £l5 a-year. As to the London:
road project, it was the most preposterous scheme that ever
was heard of.

Mr. PARKER agreed with Mr. Thornhill that the notion
of permitting hay and straw to be sold in London-road was
most preposterous. They might, with equal consistency,
allow those commodities to be sold in Lord-street. With
respect to the erection of sheds, he did not agree with Mr.
Thornhill. He thought they ought to provide means for the
protection of agricultural produce from the weather.
Mr. EVANS said, that having had something to do with
this preposterous scheme of bringing hay to be sold in Lon-
don-road, he must claim the privilege of saying a word or
two on the subject, especially as Mr. Thornhill had opposed
it, and had, no doubt, made his usual impression on the
council. (Laughter.) Mr. Parker had likewise spoken
against it, and, no doubt, with his usual effect. With respect
to the south market it was not now in eiistence. This ex-
periment was recommended in default of the South Hay-
market. Mr. Evans proceeded to state the course of pro-
ceedings in council touching the formation of the two mar-
kets, with a view of showing that lie had been an advocate
for only one market. The markets were at length brought
into action, and the north took all the business from the
south. It was difficult to say why this was, but if they found
that both buyers and sellers crowded to London-road this
would solve the difficulty. He had an opinion that this was
the position for a market for Liverpool, and they had evi-
dence enough that a much larger place than this would not
support more than one hay-market. He knew of Land in
the neighbourhood of London-road that was exactly suited
for the purpose, but he would not say too much on the sub-
ject at present. He hoped, however, to see the markets con-
centrated in that neighbourhood. They had purchased the
land on certain provisos, it was true, but they would have no
difficulty in arranging to compensate the persons with whom
they had entered into conditions.

Mr. BUSHELL said, Mr. Evans spoke of the failures of the
other markets, and he wished to remedy those failures by
making them still greater : he wished to draw the business
from them to London-road. Why should not the markets be
held at the north and the south on alternate days ? It would
be a system of reciprocity which would carry with it much
more justice than any other experiment. By the proposition
of Mr. Evans the property of both would be endangered.
If sheds were erected at the south market, farmers would be
induced to take their produce there, and in time the market
would be established.

Mr. EARLE said it was most extraordinary that the south
market did not answer, as the great bulk of buyers were at
the south. _

Mr. THORNHILL differed with Mr. Earle. The great bulk
of buyers were at the north. _ . ..

Mr. EARLE thought otherwise. He believed nearly all
the buyers were at the south. He thought favourably of
holding the market in London-road.
Mr. SANDS was like Mr. Earle, at a loss to know why the
south market did not answer. He had sent hay of his own to
be sold there, and his farmer was obliged to take it to the
north because there were no purchasers.
Mr. JORDAN said they ought to erect sheds at the south
market and then it would answer.

Mr. ROBERTSON GLADSTONE thought that however good
in itself, before Mr. Evans's plan was agreed to, it was the
duty of the council to try every means in their power, to
make the South market, on which so much had been already
expended, answer the object originally contemplated. If a
shed would have this effect, he was decidedly of opinion that
the attempt should be made ; and it was time enough, when
such experiments had failed, to talk of abandoning it and
establishing another.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said the great complaint against the
south market was that it was too cold and exposed. The
farmers did not like, for this reason, to send their cattle there.
They ought, therefore, to build a wall round it to protect it
from the wind.
Mr. PROCTOR said he hoped the counsel would agree to
build both a wall and sheds. If they did this the market
would answer.

Mr. KILSHAW said if they did build a wall it would
answer no purpose, as that place was so much exposed. The
wind would come over the wall, and it would be as bad as

. Mr. COOPER agreed entirely with Alderman Evans in his
views respecting London-road, which was an excellent situa-
tion for a market.
Mr. H. HoLmEs, seconded by Mr. THORNHILL, moved
that the proceedings be referred back to the committee, for
reconsideration.
Mr. PLATT said the farmers were not likely to attend the
south market till they had some accommodation. Let sheds
be erected, and there would be some attraction, and tbey
would go to the market. He wished to know what accom-
modation they were likely to get in London-road, A very
few carts would fill the space there, but the crowd which
would ailpear would not prove anything.
Mr. RIGBY had been in the habit of conversing with
farmers for some years, and he approved entirely of the Lon-
don-road scheme. As to the land of the South Haymarket,
it would be no loss to the corporation, as it was worth all
that it had cost.
Mr. BOLTON objected to the erection of the sheds and the
holding a market in London-road. He moved that the
erection of sheds should be suspended.
Mr. EVANS said the notion of the holding the market on
alternate days, of shutting up one market in order to force
people to another, was one of the most utopian that he had
ever heard of. By going to London-road, they broke no es-
tablishment, and they might, if it did not answer, discon-
tinue it in a week. Their object was the public convenience,
which ought to overrule all other considerations.
Mr. BUSHELL said there must be some reason why people
did not go to the south market, and it must be on account of
the situation. If they built a wall about it and erected
sheds, they would make it applicable to what was required
in all respects.
Mr. LLOYD supported the London-road scheme.
The council divided on the amendment, when there ap-
peared—
' For the amendment
Against it
The amendment was consequently lost.
The following gentlemen voted on the division :
For the amendment Messrs. Thornhill, Preston, H.
Holmes, J. Holmes, Bolton, Yates, Robinson, Gladstone,
Bushell, Parker, Proctor, Brassey, Jordan, Platt, Holt,
Moon, and Turner.
Against it—Messrs. Shaw, Shand, Houghton. Copeland,
Mellor, Sands, Rae, Bright, Priestley, Aspinall, J. Law-
rence, Cooper, Wood, Birkect, Lloyd, Rigby, Kilshaw, J.
Smith, G. H. Lawrence, Bullev, Freme, Evans, Barclay,
Earle. R. Houghton, Nicol, I3ramley-Moore, Molyneux,
Crook, and the mayor.
The proceedings of the committee were confirmed, it being
understood that the erection of the sheds was to be post-
poned for the present.
EDUCATION COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS.
The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK read the proceedings, resolu-
tions, and reports of the Education Committee. It appeared
that at one of their meetings the committee resolved that
permission be continued to the Northern Mechanics' Institu-
tion to use the ground floor of the North Corporation School,
between the hours of six and ten o'clock each evening, except
on the evenings of Saturday and Sunday, for the purposes
originally declared in the memorial to the Council of the 7th
of February, 1839, and terminable on six months' notice.
Mr. Alderman 'MoLYEUX moved the confirmation of the
proceedings.
Mr. SANDS seconded the motion.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY begged to trouble the Council
with one or two remarks in relation to some observations
which fell from Mr. Sandbach (whom he was sorry was not
in his place) at the last meeting of the Council. Mr. Sand.
back then stated that the Education Committee had deter-
mined to give up the apprenticeship system ; and he added,
as a reason for it, that the apprentices did not attend, and
there were no means of making them attend. He (Mr. Bar-
clay) was surprised at this assertion, but, being taken by
surprise, he said nothing, although he was aware that the
• apprenticeship system was generally considered, in Germany
and Prussia, as the best mode of getting assistance, and that
it was recommended by the Committee of Education of tile
Privy Council. The question, however, was, as to the beha-
viour of these apprentices ; and considering that they were
serving their time, and were looking forward to the profession
as a means of support, it was of some consequence, at least to
them, that their characters should stand right. He, there-
fore, made some inquiry, and in the course of it he had re-
ceived a letter, written by a former mistress of the South
School, which was so much to the purpose that he would
take the liberty of reading it. Mr. Alderman Barclay then
read a long letter from Mrs. Buchanan, formerly Miss Har-
rison, who, for a period of eight or nine years, had been
mistress of the South School, but was now removed to In-
verness. It stated that the writer had read, in the Mercury,
the report of a Council meeting, in which it was stated that
the apprenticeship system was to he abandoned, at which she
expressed her surprise and astonishment, because, during the
whole time the girls' school was under her management the
apprentices behaved in the most exemplary manner, and were
exceedingly zealous in the discharge of their duties. So at-
tached were they to their duties that she could seldom prevail
go home to their dinners; and she had even, upon them to
been obliged to force them from the school. As to the supe-
rity of monitors and apprentices, there was not the slightest
comparison ; by the monitorial system it was impossible to
secure a regular attendance, but by the apprenticeship system
the cleverest pupils were brought out, and their services
extensively promoted the utility of the schools. The other
parts of the letter consisted of a warm defence of the female
apprentices, and a statement of the writers opinion, pretty
clearly expressed, that the committee did not know what they
were about when they took upon themselves to change the

system.
Mr. SANDS asked to whom that letter was addressed ?
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY replied that it had been addressed
to a member of the Ladies' Committee, from whom he re-
ceived it, and that it was at the service of the council.
Mr. GLADSTONE said it was very well to read this letter of
Mrs. Buchanan's, but one story was always good until ano-
ther was told.' Mrs. Walsh, the mistress of the North School,
for instance, was decidedly of opinion that the system of ap-
prenticeship was bad. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOLTON said, then, there was the experience of one
who had been a teacher for nine years, against that of ano-
ther who had been a teacher eighteen months.
Mr. GLADSTONE begged Mr. Bolton's pardon : he was
under a mistake in this respect.
Mr. BOLTON replied that Mrs. Buchanan bad been mistress
and under-mistress of the South School for nine years.
Mr. GLADSTONE admitted that was so, but she had not
had nine years' experience of the apprenticeship system, for
it had not been anything like that period in operation.
Mr. Alderman EARLE, after some reference to Mrs. Bu.

anan's opiniosi, said he also' should hate a letter to read,
and as it was not in order to do so without requesting its
production, he should be obliged by the production of a let-
ter from Mr. Stone, the superintendent of the schools, from
the file of the Education Committee.

The MAYOR asked the Council whether they would au-
thorise the production of the letter?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.--What letter is it?
Mr. Alderman EARLE.--It is a letter from Mr. Stone, and
it has peculiar reference to a memorial which I have to

present.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—Who is it addressed to?
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—To the Education Committee,

Mr. BOLTON.—It is public property.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—It is public property, and I will
take care it becomes more public if it is refused here to-day.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—It is not refused.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I may read it then?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—Oh, yes; read it.
Mr. Alderman EARLE then read the following letter :
"North Corporation School,
" Liverpool, 10th March, 1842.,
" GENTLEMEN,—In order to carry out the intention of
your committee, and my own uesire, with regard to the
schools over which you have been pleased to place me, I
beg to observe that I am decidedly of opinion, and experi-
ence hears me out in the assertion, that, as long as the ap-
prentices remain in the said schools, and under the impres-
sion that they may absent themselves therefrom during the
time of prayer and religious instruction, thereby giving a
license to those other children who may have precisely the
same objection as they themselves seem to have, it will be
utterly impossible to produce that regularity and attention
which is most desirable at the present time. I have taken
the opportunity of addressing the children and apprentices
upon the all•importance of a sound religious instruction, and
at the same time pointed out the necessity of every indivi-
dual's attendance during prayer. It appears, however, from
a memorandum which I hold, that five out of the seven in
the North, and three out of the four in the South, School,
object altogether to join during this time. I stated to them
that if they remained, they would be compelled to attend in
the schools during that time ; if not, there could be only one
alternative, that of cancelling their indentures. They prefer
the latter. This being the case, I feel convinced that your
committee will see the urgent necessity of deciding at once
on this matter; and from the circumstance which occurred
this morning in the South Schools, of which Rector Camp-
bell is cognizant, and mentioned to me by the rector, the
best course -now to be adopted would be, to have their in-
dentures cancelled. Ocular demonstration is not to be got
over ; and the rector has requested me to state, that his firm
convlction is, that until these boys are out of the schools, it
will Le quite impossible to set the same at work with any
credit, or to form any criterion of your present proceedings.
" I am, Gentlemen,
" Your most obedient servant,
" ROBERT STONE.

To the Education Committee
of the town of Liverpool."
In the course of reading this letter, Mr. Priestley being
called out of the room; •
Mr. Alderman EARLE said—l really hope you are not go-
ing away, for you are an important member of the Education
Committee.
Mr. PRIESTLEY.—I am called out, sir.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Then I hope your call will be
short.

Mr. ASPIN ALL, in explanation of that part of the letter
which refers to Mr. Campbell, said, Mr. Campbell had been
insulted in one of the schools, on which be made a complaint

to the master
Mr. Alderman EARLE said the explanation came mal apro-
pos. He could baldly think that Mr. Campbell would have
made such a request as that attributed to him, because iu every
indenture of apprenticeship there were two sides to the bar-
gain ; the council were to do justice to the apprentices, and
the apprentices were to do justice to the council. He could
not believe that Mr. Campbell had asked such a question,
because everybody, and particularly a minister, who wished
to act properly, would first say to himself, " How should I
act in such circumstances ?" If he had a child apprenticed
under particular circumstances, which child was compelled to
do certain things against its conscience, would he, as the fa-
ther, approve of that sort of thing? if Mr. Campbell ap-
proved of it, he would have acted rightly ; but he (Mr. E.)
could not imagine he would have said these things ; he would
rather have said—" this is not the way that I would wish
others to do unto me." Then the idea of such a man as Mr.
Stone talking about the importance of religious instruction,
and so forth ! It was absurd. He begged the Town-clerk to
ring the bell for a glass of water, for really the long sentences
in Mr. Stone's letter had made him quite thirsty.
Mr. SANDS thought the letter very fair.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—" Middling fair,' Mr. Sands, I
suppose ?
Mr. SANDS.—No, I think it very fair, indeed.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—" Very fair, indeed," for the
superindendent, par excellence, of the corporation schools
of Liverpool. This, too, from a member of the Education
Committee !
Mr. BUSHELL
in it?
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Yes, I can
Mr. BusHELL.—Where are they? I cannot discover any
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh, you are a very great autho-
rity, Mr. Bushell, because all your own sentences are so
remarkably well turned.
Mr. BusuELL.—But I cannot speak so well as you.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh, yes, you do. I think you
speak remarkably well.—He had a memorial to present on
this very subject of the turning away of the apprentices,
which he thought would be received with peculiar satisfac-
tion by the council, because the first person by whom it was
signed was a tory, and he had voted with the tories at the
late election in St. Ann's Ward. Mr. Earle then read the
memorial, which was of extreme length, occupying eight
closely-written folio pages. It professed to come from the
fathers of the apprentices who had been " turned out " of
the corporation schools. It stated that when they were
bound it was agreed they were not to receive peculiar re-
ligious instruction, and they had continued in the schools
up to the present time on the understanding that no inter-
ference in this respect should take place. They had, how-
ever, been required to go to church, and they were not
taught algebra, Latin, and other matters as formerly; and
they complained that they were required to be transferred
from Mr. Nelson to Mr. Stone, who could not teach them
these branches of learning according to the terms of their
indentures. They had received notice from the Town-clerk
that unless they consented to the transfer they must not
again attend the schools ; and since this they had been twice
driven from the schools : however, before taking legal pro-
ceedings they wished to throw themselves on the high honour
and gentlemanly feeling of the council.—He did not know
whether the memorialists had yet taken any legal steps ' • but
whether they had or not he trusted that justice would be done
to them. As he had said before there were two sides to every
question; and although the apprentices had done their duty
to the corporation, it did not seem as if the corporation
had done their duty to the apprentices. He did not
think that it was exactly the duty of the Town-clerk,
although he entertained the highest respect for his
integrity and honour—(he should be very sorry to think
otherwise of him)—to try to get gentlemen out of a hobble
when once they had got into it. The Education Committee
were at present in a difficulty, and the Town-clerk seemed to
be trying to get them out of the mud. He (Mr. Alderman
Earle) would let them flounder in it. He would not, how-
ever, let them be a party to an unjust action. These appren-
tices were bound to a man of talent, for whom the public
had a regard, because he was capable of teaching the chil-
dren ; but he would appeal to any gentlemen, whether Mr.
Stone was a fit person to whom they ought to be apprenticed ?
His own letters condemned him ; but perhaps Mr. Bushell
had not seen them all ;—[Mr. BUSHELL—Yes, I have]—and
Mr. Stone would have acted wisely if he had not written
them. lie did think that the apprentices would be very ill
used if they were forced either out of the schools or to cancel
their indentures, unless there was some person to whom they
could be indentured able, to teach them what the corpo-
ration had agreed they should be taught. These poor chil-
dren had left other lines of life ; they had been singled out
for the purpose, as possessing peculiar talent, and he was
sure, from what he had seen of them, that they were well-
spoken, genteel boys. They had been at his house last night.
(Laughter.) Mr. Sands laughed, but—
Mr. SANDS—I laughed, because I thought there was some
investigation going on somewhere.
Mr. Alderman EARLE—An investigation going on some-
where ! Why all he knew was, that these two lads called at
his house last night with the memorial, and requested him to
present it ; but he bad never seen either of them before. lie
had certainly seen a boy named Slack, whom he had wished
to have taken into his counting-house, in Hoyle-street ; and
the father of one boy once called upon-ltim at his counting-
house, and spoke to him upon the subject ; but be said to
him, " What do you come to me for, sir ? You have voted
for those gentlemen who have brought this to pass ; you voted
for Mr. Parker and Mr. Brassey, in St. Ann's Ward, and
what do you come to me for? If you disapprove of the sys-
tem which they have established, why do you vote for them ?"
" Oh, but," says he, " I voted under protest."
Mr. BRASSEY denied this statement.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—SO much for " the investigations"
which Mr. Sands spoke of. But Mr. Sands had already in-
sinuated things for which Mr. Barclay bad called him to ac-
count, and he must recollect that he did not come off on that
occasion with a very good grace, and now he was insinuating
things in which he would have equal difficulty in coming off
with a good grace.
Mr. SANDS.—I shall be very glad to answer you.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh ! I like to speak my mind
openly.
Mr. SANDS.-I was going to speak mine openly.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—AII I say is that I will do all in
my power to see these lads righted.
Mr. SANDS.—There is no wish on our part to see them
otherwise than righted.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—There is the point. There is no
wish but to see them righted. Indeed! Then I should be
glad to have the Town-clerk's explanation whether these pro-
ceedings are legal—whether the education committee can
compel these indentures to be cancelled?
The TOWN-CLERK.—If the parties had furnished you with
my letter of the 29th March, which they have not, you would
have had the whole case.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I have nothing but these.
The TOWN-CLERK.—Then you are deficiently supplied

—Can you point out a grammatical error

with information.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Then it is your bounden duty to
us, Mr. Town-clerk, to give us your explanation.
Mr. Asrus ALL.—The Town-clerk will do so.
Mr. H ARBORD.—I think that Mr. Earle is himself in the
mud, and that he ought to be allowed to flounder a little

longer.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.--lt is absolutely necessary that we
should have the Town-clerk's explanation.
The TOWN-CLERK.—At the proper time I shall be pre-
pared to give it.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—WeII; I hardly know how to
finish this. (Loud laughter.) It
is nostice t laugohing matter, gen-
tlemen. You are doing a great nju people beneath
you in station and life, but that is no reason why you should
do so ; although you wear good coats upon your backs, you
are not to treat the poor in this way. We are not sent into
this room for that purpose.
The TowN-CLERK.—I think, Mr. Mayor, Mr. Earle
should finish his case before he calls for evidence. (Hear.)
Mr. MELLOR.—I think, on the other hand, that Mr. Earle
ought to have the letter of the 29th March read before he
finishes his case.
Mr. HARBORD.—I differ from that, inasmuch as Mr. Earle
stated that the Town-clerk had no right to help to get the
Education Committee out of the mud. Now Mr. Earle has
got himself into the mud, and I think the Town-clerk ought
to leave him to flounder a little there.
Mr. Alderman EAILLE.—That is a very smart and clever
repartee, Mr. Harbord ; but coming from you it doesn't hit
very hard.
Mr. BOLTON said, that if fair justice were given to Mr.
Earle he ought to be put in possession of the letter of the
29th March, in order that he might found thereon a resolu-
tion which he intended to propose.
Mr. LLoIn did not think so; but he thought that both
Mr. Earle and his proceedings should be referred back for
information, for it was very clear that he was floundering in
the mud in all directions. He had not got above one-half
the correspondence ; but the Town-clerk's explanations, like
" the Duke's" despatches, would make everything satisfac-
tory. _

•
Mr. MELLOR must say this was not satisfactory to him.
In the first place, Mr. Earle should be put into possession of
the Town-clerk's letter before be finished his case—(cries of
" No, no") ; and further, some explanations should be given
to the council why that letter had not appeared among the
proceedings of the Education Committee.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said there were other points. There
was this point—the th
resolution forcing these children to do
what they were not bound to do, against their conscience;

and, whether or not, the original indentures were not tti the
masters who had been compelled to leave. It was an awk-
ward situation into which the Education Committee had

Mr. JAMES LAWP.ENCE thought the indentures were made
to any master that might be substituted for another, and if
that were the case that was not interfering with the opinions
of such masters. . .

Mr. Alderman EARLE .—They are indentures to be taught
certain things, which Mr. Stone does not intend to teach
them, either from incapability or some other reason.
The Tow N-ctEux.---That is not my construction of the
indentures. _ _ _

Mr. PARKER had not yet seen the indentures. He had
applied for a copy, but he could not obtain one. They were
talking about the indentures, whilst he believed there were
four-fifths of the corporation who had never seen them.

Mr. Alderman EARLE here moved that the memorial be
referred to the Education Committee, and that they be in-
structed to report upon the allegations it contained.
Mr. BOLTON seconded the proposition. He thought that
though the Town-clerk had not produced his letter of the
29th of March, Mr. Earle had made out a case of apparent
injustice, fraud, and oppression. Either Mr. Stone was in-
capable or unwilling, or perhaps both, to instruct the ap-
prentices in those branches of knowledge in which they were
entitled to be instructed ; but whatever the result of the
proposed enquiry might be, it was due to the character of
the committee who directed the schools to see that the
apprentices received no injustice.
Mr. BUSHELL said the labours of the Education Committee
were already veryconsiderable, and it would be hard to increase
them unnecessarily. If the letter to which the Town-clerk
had alluded would throw sufficient light upon this matter to
prevent the necessity of sending the memorial to the com-
mittee, it would be unnecessary to occupy their time with it.
r. CROOK was quite sure the Town-clerk's letter would
explain everything.
The MAYOR. (the Town-clerk having retired for a moment)
said it was his intention to explain everything.
Mr. PARKER said the memorial read by Mr. Earle was to
have been presented by himself, as Mr. Fergie, by whom it
was first signed, and who was a member of his constituency,
had requested him to do so, and he said he would. He was
much delighted, however, that it had fallen into the hands of
Mr. Earle ; at the same time he had not pledged himself to
support it. He had, as he said before, gone to the Town-
clerk to obtain information as to the terms upon which the
apprentices were bound to the corporation ; the Town-clerk,
however, told him that they belonged to the Education Com-
mittee, and without an order from the chairman he could not
give him a copy of the indentures. He did not go to the
chairman because he thought that, as a member of the coun-
cil, he had a right to see the indentures; therefore, under
these circumstances, he could not tell what the conditions of
them were. He was extremely sorry that Mr. Earle should
have cast insinuations upon one of the rectors in the manner
which he had, for the rector, he was sure, wished to do
nothing but what was right. He hoped, indeed, that no
member of that council would impute to any clergyman a
disposition to do anything but what was right, and still less
to the rector. Before this matter was decided upon, he sug-
gested that each member should have a copy of the inden-
tures. He had told Fergie he was satisfied that justice would
be done to him if he would only let the thing come fairly
before the council. _ _

Mr. Alderman EARLE disclaimed having said anything
disrespectful of Mr. Rector Campbell.
The TOWN-CLERK said the time had now arrived when it
was proper he should state what he knew of the subject
brought before the council by Mr. Alderman Earle. First
of all he would explain that be had always considered that if
he held papers on behalf of any committee, he held them as
not to be disposed of at his discretion, but under the direc-
tion of the committee, unless any of them were called for in
that council chamber. The subject in question underwent
considerable consideration, at a time when a member of the
council applied to be present at the proceedings of the watch
committee ; and the subject of the papers was taken into
consideration at the same time. The gentleman applying
was Mr. Cooper. On a subsequent occasion Mr. Isaac
Holmes applied to take some part in the proceedings of the
Education Committee—he thought in the schools themselves.
On both these occasions he (the Town-clerk) was called
upon, and he gave his opinion against the parties who were
applying for privileges to which they thought themselves en-
titled. The first application made to him for a copy of the
indentures in the present case, was brought to him by one of
his clerks, and the party who applied was Mr. Ald. Earle.
He directed an explanation to be given why it could not be
furnished • subsequently, however, it appeared that Mr. Earle
had applied in behalf of one of the apprentices, and had
the apprentice along with him. The case was then altered,
and it clearly being an application for a party, a copy was
furnished. The councillor, Mr. Parker, then applied, and he
explained to Mr. Parker that he would have nothing more
to do than to obtain an order from the chairman of the com-
mittee, and to that order he (the Town-clerk) should pay im-
plicit and prompt obedience. The first directions he bad
from the Education Committee to prepare transfers of the
indentures of apprenticeship, or, if the apprentices did not
wish to remain under the new head master, to cancel them,
were on the 25th of February, as follows :
" The Town-clerk to prepare transfers of the indentures
of the apprentices to the head master, Mr. Robert Stone;
and should the parents or guardians of any of the appren-
tices be desirous to withdraw any of them from the schools,
the Town-clerk to cancel their indentures. And that the
like course to be pursued with regard to the female appren-
tices and their mistresses."

Of course, the committee having given him these directions
to prepare the assignment without any controul as to the
terms of the transfer, if there was any error in the assign-
ment, it rested with him and not with the committee. The
directions being given, he addressed a note to the parents of
the several apprentices, on the 28th of February, stating—
" I have received from the Education Committee of the
Council the instructions copied on the other half-sheet, and
I have now to acquaint you, that the draft of the assignment
will be ready for your perusal at twelve o'clock to-morrow,
when it can be delivered to yourself or the apprentices, with
any explanation that may be, desired."
And with this note he gave a copy of the directions of the
committee. At a meeting which took place the following
day, he received from the apprentices named in the memorial
and their parents a demand by them, taken down as follows :
" Before agreeing to an assignment of the indentures to

Mr. Stone, the head master, the fathers of the apprentices
wish to know whether the Education Committee will not
undertake that their sons shall be instructed in the rudiments
of Latin, and the elementary branches of the mathematics,
as taught by Mr. Nelson."
The next step he took was to lay this demand before a meet-
ing of the Education Committee for their instructions thereon;
and the answer which they directed to be returned was as

follows :
" The corporation are ready to execute an assignment in
the terms precisely of the existing indentures ; but the com-
mittee are of opinion that these terms do not comprise in-
struction in the rudiments of Latin, or the elementary
branches of the mathematics. However, the committee have
no objection to the head master, or any of the masters, giving
instruction in those branches if they chose to do so ; but the
committee cannot make any order upon the subject."
This, at a further meeting with the apprentices and their
parents, was read by him to the parties ; and this was the re-
solution refelred to in the memorial read by Mr. Earle, as
stating " thanhe committee would not burden the master with
the teaching of Latin and the mathematics." At this second
meeting, Mr. Fergie, the father, read a letter, which he had
addressed to the Chairman of the Education Committee, and
concluded with expressing his determination in these words :
" I will not cancel the indenture nor execute the assign-
ment unless the corporation engage a proper person to teach
my son exactly as Mr. Nelson taught him ; Mr. Stone is not
that person ; he is not capable."
This determination being taken down was read to Mr. Fergie,
and confirmed by him. Mr. Fergie then applied for a copy
of the draft of assignment. The other parents and the ap-
prentices, (with Mr. Fergie's son, six in number,) all stated
"We will abide by what Mr. Fergie has said." Thus as to
these apprentices the meeting ended. Drafts of the assign-
ment being ordered, then the letters read by Mr. Earle, in
the memorial, were written by him to the parents. On the
19th of March he wrote to the parents as follows :
" You have been distinctly apprised that the corporation
have been (as they still are) willing to join in an assignment
of your son's indenture of apprenticeship to the new head
master, Mr. Stone, which deed would be prepared in the
terms of the original indenture, and according to the proviso
therein for such assignment upon a new head master being
appointed by the council. As your son, acting with your
approbation, has declared his refusal to be assigned to Mr.
Stone, I am directed by the Education Committee of the
Council to state, that it necessarily follows that your son's
attendance at the school cannot, under these circumstances,
be continued."
Here he might have stopped ; but, as copies of the draft of
the assignment had been applied for, and he wished to give
the parties time for repentance upon the subject if they should
be so advised, he wrote them this note :
"As you have requested the draft assignment of your son's
indenture, I send it herewith, willing to give every informa-
tion, though, after your son's refusal to be assigned to Mr.
Stone, it cannot be of much value, unless that determination
be altered."
He thus showed that the door was still open for accommoda-
tion, if they thought proper. He had supposed they had
thought better of it—at least he then thought so ; but he did
not know how this might be upon a consideration of what
now appeared. The assignment which was prepared was
drawn, according to his opinion, precisely in the terms of the
original indentures. The original indentures were different
from ordinary indentures of apprenticeship, which in their
nature were personal ; the apprentice personally bound to the
master, and the master personally bound to the apprentice;
and if there was during the term of apprenticeship any
change, such change could only take place by the agreement
of both. That was the case with ordinary indentures of ap-
prenticeship ; but the indentures in question, very properly
considering the apprentice bound to the establishment rather
than to the master, contained the following proviso :
" Provided, that if the said Robert Jacob Nelson shall,
during the said term, cease to be the head master of the
North Corporation School, or if the said Robert Jacob Nelson
shall die during the said term, he the said Robert Jacob Nel-
son, or his executors or administrators, shall and will forth-
with legally assign the said apprentice, for the residue of the
said term then unexpired, unto the person who shall be ap-
pointed by the council of the said borough to succeed the
said Robert Jacob Nelson in the said office."
Then the undertaking of the master was certainly in these

terms :
" And the said Robert Jacob Nelson, doth, hereby, for
himself, his executors, administrators and assigns, covenant,
promise and agree, with and to the said Charles Fergie, and
the said apprentice, that he the said Robert Jacob Nelson,
his executors, administrators and assigns, shall and will, dur-
ing the said term teach, inform and instruct, or cause and
procure so be taught, informed and instructed, the said ap-
prentice by the best ways and means he can in the art or oc-
cupation of a teacher in the various branches of education
taught in the North Corporation School as he, the said Ro-
bert Jacob Nelson, now practises, or, during the said term,
shall practise the same."
This stipulation seemed very proper. It was not different
fi
etch eo
fp raonv swo
mw ha
si ct
eh r hwe
afis rs
givent rea dt wt
ha
es
edecidedly
ttihnigs , h—y
from the ordinary stipulations in common indentures. The
o
icorth oco
nun
e
ittee ; the apprentice parted with the
thehffee
power
which, under the common indenture, he would have had, of
consenting to the release of the old master. ln.cornmonin-
dentures the master was bound, during all the term, to fulfil
his engagements but here all that was parted with, and the
apprentice submitted to be bound to the new master who,
upon the removal of the old, was to be appointed by another
party—the council. Upon that appointment being made, he
(the town-clerk) read the engagement, on the part of the new
master, to teach and instruct. to be just the same, precisely,
as that on the part of the old master ; where you then read
" Nelson" you should now read "Stone." The moment the
new master was appointed everything applying to Nelson was
changed and applied to the new head master ; that
is, Stone
is himself to teach as Nelson was himself to teach,—with
reference to the branches of education, from time to time
taught by him to the general scholars. The new master
was bound by the assignment to teach those branches
which, from time time, were taught by him (the new
master) in the corporation schools. If it were otherwise, it
would come to this, that any one apprentice could control
all the necessary changes in the management of the schools.
What was referred to in the indentures was the mode of
teaching the apprentices, with reference to the teaching of
the general scholars in the school. If it were, that there was
a control of the kind contended for on the part of the ap-
prentices, it would come to this—if you taught. Latin to-day
prentices,
or Greek to-morrow, you must go on . teaching Latin and
Greek. however bad you found the experiment to be ; or you
must ask the consent of the apprentice to change the system.
It was impossible that this could be the law. This was his
honest opinion upon the indentures, and he was bound, as he

wag unrestricted by the committee, to exercise his honest
opinion upon the subject ; and be trusted he had done so,
without having occasion, or giving occasion, to get himself
or the committee out of the mire. There was not one of
parents or the apprentices who would not say that upon
every occasion when they met him, they were treated with
the greatest courtesy—time was sacrificed in explanations,
temper was, under trying circumstances, controlled, He
defied them to say that he had used one unpleasant word to-
wards them, or that they had not been treated with as much
respect as if they had been a deputation from the council of
education acting on the part of the legislature. (Hear.) The
next thing he had to refer to was this; he received a note,
for the first time on this subject, from Mr. Berry, a solicitor
in Liverpool, after the draft of the assignment had been in
the possession of each of the parties for some days. It was
delivered on the 19th, and on the 23rd he received the note
as follows :

" Fergie to Stone,
" I return this draft, approved with a slight alteration,
making it agree with the terms of the original indenture. I
am instructed also by Mr. Cunningham, Mr. M'Avoy, Mr.
Duncan, and Mr. Stock to act on their behalf in this matter,
and to inform vou they are quite willing to enter into an
assignment on the terms in the original indenture. As all the
cases are, I believe, similar, it will save trouble if this draft
be considered as approved on behalf of all. I conclude the
original indentures are the same in all the cases; if not, I
shall be obliged by copies of such as differ from Mr.
Fergie's."
He referred to the draft, and he found it was altered to this
effect—that the new head master should be bound to teach
the apprentices in the art or mystery of a teacher in the va-
rious branches of education as fully and as effectually as were
taught by the said R. J. Nelson in the said North Corpora-
tion School. That, in his opinion, was quite contrary to the
terms of the original indentures. He, therefore, on the 24th,
wrote the following reply to Mr. Berry :
" I have given every possible consideration to your altera-
tions in the draft assignment of Thomas Francis Fergie to
the new Head Master of the North Corporation School ; but
it appears to me that these alterations, instead of making the
draft agree with the terms of the original indenture, make
that draft materially to differ from the terms of the original
indenture. I think the draft, without the alterations, cor-
rectly expressed those terms.
" I cannot, therefore, approve of the alterations ; and 1
again transmit the draft that the subject may have any fur-
ther consideration that you may deem proper. '
Now here, at the most, was a difference of opinion between
two solicitors. Mr. Berry thought he was right, and he
(the town-clerk) thought he was right. Mr. Berry, how-
ever, did not reply to his opinion on the alterations given in
that letter ; and up to this moment, the 6th of April, he had
had no communication with Mr. Berry on the subject of the
assignment. But he did receive subsequently a letter from
Mr. Berry, which called forth the letterof the29th March, in
which he gave an explanation, that in a short compass would
put the council in possession of all the facts. The letter he
received from Mr. Berry on the 28th March was as follows :
" Fergie to Stone.
"I am informed that the apprentices have been this morn-
ing forcibly turned out of 'the school by Mr. Stone's direc-
tion. I cannot imagine this proceeding can be taken by your
advice, although you are, I presume, and have been, acting
on behalf of Mr. Stone in this matter. Mr. Fergie, and all
the others for whom 1 act, have signified their wish to have
the indentures assigned on the terms in the original inden-
tures, which are the terms proposed by you on behalf of the
corporation and Mr. Stone. I shall be glad to know from
you if it is Mr. Stone's intention to persevere in excluding
the boys from the school. They are quite willing to give
their attendance at all reasonable times."
He did not understand from this that his original draft was
agreed to ; but nothing beyond this had been received con-
taining a syllable of answer to the opinion he (the town-
clerk) gave upon the effect of the alterations of the draft. That
letter being received, his reply on the day following (the
29th March) was as follows:
" In answer to your letter of yesterday, I have to state
that, when Mr. Fergie and the other parents, with the appren-
tices, met me by appointment, on the 18th instant, Mr. Fer-
gie, for himself and his son, declared, I will not cancel the
indenture, nor execute the assignment, unless the corporation
engage a proper person to teach my son exactly as Mr. Nel-
son taught him, and Mr. Stone is not that person ; he is not
capable.' This was carefully noted down at the time, read
over to Mr. Fergie, and confirmed by him, and afterwards it
was adopted by each of the other apprentices and his parent.
Upon this the committee came to the resolution, that
the attendance at the schools of the apprentices who had re-
fused to be assigned to Mr. Stones should be disallowed.
" This I communicated, by a letter, on the 19th instant,
as follows :
" You have been distinctly apprised that the corporation
have been (as they still are) willing to join in an assignment
of your son's indenture of apprenticeship to the new head
master, Mr. Stone; which deed would be prepared in the
terms of the original indenture, and according to the proviso
therein for such assignment, upon a new head master being
appointed by the council.
" ' As your son, acting with your approbation, has declared
his refusal to be assigned to Mr. Stone, I am directed by the
Education Committee of the Council to state, that it neces-
sarily follows that your son's attendance at the school cannot,
under these circumstances, be continued.'
" As however a draft assignment had been applied for, one
was at the same time transmitted by me to each party, with
a note as follows :
" As you require the draft assignment of your son's in-
denture, 1 send it herewith, willing to give every information,
though after your son's refusal to be assigned to Mr. Stone,
it cannot be of much value, unless that determination be
altered."
" On the 23rd instant, you returned to me the draft
assignment, with alterations which I could not approve of,
and the 24th I returned it to you as follows
" I have given every possible consideration to your alter-
ations in the draft assignment of Thomas Francis Fergie, to
the new head master of the North Corporation School; but
it appears to me that these alterations, instead of making
the draft agree with the terms of the original indenture, make
that draft materially to differ from the terms of the original
indenture. I think the draft, without the alterations, cor-
rectly expressed those terms.
" ' I cannot therefore approve of the alterations ; and I
again transmit the draft that the subject may have any fur-
ther consideration that you may deem proper.'
" Under these circumstances, the relation of master and
apprentice stands, at least, at present repudiated by your
clients ; and this state of things, until it is altered by an as-
signment in terms correctly settled, must continue ; and
pending it, it is neither proper, nor can it answer any good
purpose, for the young men to attend the school, and it cer-
tainly will not be allowed. But to relieve you and them, you
are quite at liberty to consider such attendance as daily ten-
dered and disallowed, and that no omission therein shall pre-
judice the rights of anY party.
This letter would show that every pains ha
d been taken by
him to put the whole case before the parties, and that by re-
turning the draft the door was not yet closed against their
reconsideration. •
Mr. Alderman EVANS complained of its being now set up
that the apprentices were bound to the establishment and
not to the master.
The Towx-CLERK.—That is with regard to the education
to be taught them.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—And therefore the young men go
and make the demand upon the establishment.
The TOWN-CLERK.—Put it so; but who is to receive the
demand of the young men ? The committee are not to
be there for the government of these young men ; but my
observations as to their' being bound to the establishment
were made with another view.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—The young men go there to make
a legal tender of their services.
The Towrc-CLEux.—You will see bow I deal with that.
I say " Go on, if. you like, but I will relieve you from the
trouble of going there every day: we will consider the
tender as made every day, without prejudice to the rights of
any party." Now, if it should be found that he was wrong in
his law as to the effect of the assignment he could not help
it : but he thought that if Mr. Alderman Earle bad been put
in possession of his letter of the 29th of March it would
have altered his apprehension of the case.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I do not agree with you, Mr.
Town-clerk.
Mr. ASPINALL here suggested an adjournment, as it was
past three o'clock, but it was overruled.
Mr. YATES said it often happened that the state of the
law was one thing, and justice another, and he thought there
was a singular example of it on this occasion. He did not
mean to dispute the law of the Town-clerk, but he would say
this, that it was agreed, when the apprentices were bound,
that they should be taught mathematics, classics, algebra,
and geometry.
Mr. GLADSTONE said it never was.
Mr. YATEs said at all events it was agreed that they should
receive an education to fit them for ushers in any school in
England ; and it was a great injustice that they should be
prevented from learning those things and be taught only the
very ordinary education given in the corporation schools.
But suppose he said nothing further upon the subject, there
were laws far higher than the laws of England ; there were
the laws of God, and those laws had, in this instance, been
grosslya nd voluntarily infringed upon. (Hear.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Certainly they have.
Mr. YATES, in continuation, said, he did not know what
were the opinions of the gentlemen of the Education Com-
mittee respecting the laws of the Almighty. Let them judge
for themselves, as he was there to judge for himself, what in-
fluence those laws had upon them : but it was agreed on all
hands that when they were bound, as stated by the Town-
clerk, to the corporation, that their liberty of conscience
should never be violated. But instead of this they were told
that they must learn the protestant catechism, although they
were Roman catholics. (Cries of " No, no.") It was as-
serted by Mr. Fergie that his son had been told they must
teach the catechism to other boys. (" No, no.") Well,
let that be disproved ; he was merely referring to the docu-
ment read by Mr. Earle. He knew it was a rule that they
should not be compelled to go to church ; but the children.
had been told that although they were Roman catholics, they
mush teach the Church Catechism. Now this was not fair,
and it was contrary. to their rights.
Mr. Bragerr sand,Mr. Yates wanspealcing,plo4l*.tO the
assignment that. the ruenfortat.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—It is the whole memorial he is
speaking to.
Mr. YATES.—It is to the whole memorial I am speaking..
Mr. MOLYNEUX said, Fergie, the father of one of the ap-
prentices, had told him that he was a churchman.
Mr. YATES said, the motion was that the memorial be re-
ferred to the Education Committee, and that they report
thereon. He was therefore perfectly regular in referring to
what it contained. He then proceeded to eulogise the con-
duct of the apprentices in refusing to violate their consci-
ences ; and said they had even been driven from the schools.
with violence. (No, no.) But it was not to be wondered at
that what was commenced in injustice should terminate in
oppression and tyranny.
The TOWN-CLERK said, the " violence" used was just
such gentle violence as was usual in such cases.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE did not wish to provoke any oppo-
sition, but his own opinion was that the Education Com-
mittee had, very properly, acted upon the indentures, which
former apprentices bad entered into. They only wished to
substitute one man's name for another man's name; beyond
that they did not, and had no wish, to go ; and it was rather
WO much to say, that because a former master had taught the
apprentices algebra, and so on, (which were not in the inden-
tures,) the committee were bound to teach them algebra, and
that, too, in a charity school. They should teach them as
much of the trade and occupation of a teacher in such a
school as that they were learning in, and nothing beyond
could be necessary. But he really believed this was not the
great difficulty now. The apprentices, when brought before
the committee, were asked whether they would con-
tinue in the schools, and they one and all declined to do so.
They had a sense of the difficulties which surrounded them ;
they did not know whether Mr. Stone understood algebra,
and so on, but they knew that the system of education was
so changed, that they would have great difficulty in agreeing
to it, and they therefore said they would rather have their
indentures cancelled. But out of doors they fell in with
other company. They were told that this would be a de-
lightful handle and occasion for display in the Town-coun-
cil; that it would be a fair source of perpetual embarrass-
ment and annoyance, and enable them to go on, week after
week, and month after month, frustrating the views of the
majority of the council. It was upon this ground alone that
the memorial which had been read was brought before the
council. There might be some little difference in Fergie's
case ; but even if the children were accepted, and the inden-
tures were transferred, the next step would be one of the
greatest difficulty, and he really thought it would be far
wiser for the committee to compensate them and cancel their
indentures. The children felt that, and the council never
could pass any rule that should enforce a restraint upon those
who were Roman Catholics. But he did beg and pray the
minority not to go on with this continual annoyance of the

majority of the council ; he did beg and pray that they might
have a little rest—a little peace. They knew, as far as he
was concerned, that he approved, as a whole, of the course
of education now in course of establishment, though he had
endeavoured to engraft upon it some relaxation which he
thought would enable them to give some little instruction,
however slight, to the Roman Catholics who most needed it.
It was his wish, and it was also the wish of Mr. Gladstone,
and he had intimated it to the council, that if such and such
events should not happen, he was prepared to come forward
and say that others should be prepared. But how could either
he or Mr. Gladstone, who wished to open the doors to the
public generally, go on if they were harassed in this way ? Give
the schools a fair trial—let the committee have six months'
trial of them at least; but if they were to have, day after
day, this eternal system of annoyance, he was sure the other
side would not answer their own end. They would do more
to perpetuate the schools upon their present system than
to suppress them.
Mr. BIRKETT would not have risen if it had not been for
the remarks of Mr. Lawrence. If Mr. Lawrence had taken
the same course upon the first occasion when the opposition
was offered to the wish of the majority c•ziich carried out the
declared wishes of the inhabitants, they would not have had
this sort of work. These sort of proceedings were encou-
raged by reason of the lukewarmness of the friends of this
question. Mr. Lawrence had alluded to Mr. Gladstone.
Now he (Mr. Birkett) thought that Mr. Gladstone was
widely mistaken in what he said at the last meeting. How-
ever, if these sort of proceedings were to go on, he would
take the sense of the council upon it by a direct motion, for
he would move a vote of confidence in the Education Com-
mittee, and that their proceedings be not brought before the
council for six months. (Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.")
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh, put a hundred such notices
upon the book.
Mr. BIRKETT did not expect that Mr. Earle would thank
him for saying what he had. If ever he did, he (Mr. Birkett)
should begin to think himself much mistaken. He stood how-
ever upon this, that the town of Liverpool bad, by a large
majority, sent a large majority into the council, mainly upon
this question—upon the question of protestant principle.
(Cries of " No, no.") Who said no ?
Mr. MELLOR.—I do.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—And I say " No."

Mr. BIRKETT was surprised at the exclamations of Mr.
Mellor in contradiction of him, (Mr. Birkett,) because, hav-
ing been once or twice returned by the casting vote of the
alderman, it could not be said that he represented any body;
and especially as there were only about 13 of his opinion in
the council, whilst there were 34 or 35 who held the opinions
that he (Mr. Birkett) held.
Mr. PLATT must express his gratification at what had
fallen from Mr. Lawrence. It was in consequence of the
allusions he had made that he had entered the notice
which he (Mr. Platt) had given on the paper. (Laughter.)
He would wait till gentlemen had done laughing. They must
all acknowledge that the education question had been one of
exceeding great difficulty ; it had given the council great
anxiety and concern ; and although be was an advocate for
the former system, yet he felt convinced that as long as reli-
gious instruction was to be given it never could be given to
different classes in the same school. Finding that the Roman
Catholic children were virtually excluded by the present
rules, he thought their priests had no alternative but to advise
them to withdraw from the schools. They ought to be com-
plimented for following that advice instead of being found
fault with, seeing that they maintained their principles, which
many, from their poverty, might be induced to abandon. In
conclusion, he did hope that some arrangement would be
made on this question which would embrace the views of all
parties.
Mr. BOLTON asked the Town-clerk whether any of the
apprentices referred to were Roman catholics ? His reason
for asking the question was that if any of the Roman
catholics were required to attend church and teach the cate-
chism it was an act of injustice.
The TOWN-CLERK had not thought it necessary to ask the
question what religion they were. One, he believed, was a
Roman catholic.
Mr. LAWRENCE said that no such thing had been required.
Mr. MOLYNEUX said the reading of the authorised version
of the scriptures would be expected from all; but none were
expected to attend church whose parents had a conscientious
objection to it. The parents of the children knew that re-
ligious instruction was administered to them.
Mr. EARLE asked if dissenting ministers were allowed to
attend to administer such instruction?

Mr. MOLYNEUX.—No.
Mr. 'YATES asked why the returns of the number of chil-
dren attending the respective schools were not given as usual ?
Mr. PLATT replied that the omission was accidental.
Some discussion ensued as to whether M r. Earle had moved
an amendment, and whether he had any right of reply.
Mr. BOLTON expressed himself satisfied with the Town-
clerk's explanation, and said he would withdraw the motion,
so far as he was concerned.
Mr. EARLE did not make any reply, and it appeared to be
the general opinion that the amendment should be put.
The council then divided, when there appeared
For the amendment ll
Against it 27
The amendment was consequently lost. The following
members voted on the division :
For the amendment.—Messrs. Thornhill, Preston, Mellor,
Bright, Priestley, Yates, Jordan, Freme, Evans, Barclay,
and Earle.
Against it.—Messrs. Shaw, Shand, Copeland, Edwards,
Sands, Bolton, Rae, Aspinall, J. Lawrence, Cooper, Wood,
Birkett, Gladstone, Procter, Lloyd, Parker, Jones, jun.,
Brassey, G. H. Lawrence, Platt, Harbord, R. Houghton,
Nicol, Bramley-Moore, Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor.
Mr. ASPINALL, seconded by Mr. LLOYD, moved an ad-
journment.
Mr. YATES said he would move that that part of the pro-
ceedings which related to the apprentices be referred back to
the committee for re-consideration.
Mr. EARLE seconded the amendment.
Mr. ASPINALL pressed his motion for adjournment, upon
which, after a brief conversation, amid some confusion,
Mr. YATES withdrew his motion.
The council then adjourned at a quarter to four o'clock till
eleven o'clock this day, (Friday).

ANTI-MONOPOLY TEA & CAKE GATHERING
Last night the members of the Anti-Monopoly Association
had a tea party at the Music-hall, in Bold-street, for the pur-
pose of being enlightened upon the effect of the corn-laws and
other laws, and for some other purpose which at this moment
we are unable to explain. The room was—we cannot say
tastefully—decorated with flags, beariir the usual anti-mo-
nopoly mottoes, the most conspicuous, r.t which was in front
of the platform—" The corn-laws arc opposed to the laws of
God and the happiness of man." Tue Lieeting was fixed for
six o'clock, at which hour, however, the muster was very
thin, and consisted principally of members of that emi-
nently liberal society who delight in free trade, buttonless
coats, and mouse-coloured bonnets, looking unutterable
things at the piles of cake and the empty tea-cups. By
seven o'clock, however, the drab was tolerably sprinkled
with more lively colours ; and when the tea equipages came
upon the table and the work of destruction commenced, we
feel bound to admit that a fairer and more orderly assemblage
never met to demolish sweet cake and buttered biscuits.
The latter, we may remark, (and we paid sotne attention to
them) it would be a misnomer to denominate " buttered."
They had been smeared with something of a greasy nature,
no doubt ; and we half suspect that in their composition was
the identical " spoilt grease" imported as lard by a friend
of our Bolton "friend "—Henry Ashworth.
Mr. Laurence Heyworth was chairman on the occasion ;
and amongst the distingnished people upon the platform we
noticed Mr. J. Finch, of the Hall of Science, Mr. J. Brooks,
of Manchester, Colonel Thompson, Mr. C. Holland, &e. In
front of the chairman, girt round with gold bands, was the me-
morial of the ladies of Liverpool to the Queen, signed by
63,140 names ! ! After the usual quantity of material of- all
kinds—liquid and solid—bad been despatched, ‘• the King
of the Teetotallers" rose and delivered himself, in his usual
-style, of a sermon unon the corn laws, the landlords, the
sugar duties, free trade, and things in general. We shall not
weary our readers by reporting the mawkish and miserable
rubbish in question, as we have no doubt the illustrious in-
dividual would be happy to give a private repetition
of it to any gentleman or lady who may have a curiosity
to see to what a deplorably wishy-washy state the con-
stant drenching of a man's stomach with weak gruel and
green tea, and the constant perusal of temperance tracts and
anti-monopoly pamphlets will reduce an intellect which, in
its best state, was never fitted for any more arduous occu-
pation than to " chronicle small beer."
Mr. Lawrence Heyworth was followed by Col. Thomson,
in a speech which we regret that we have not space to report
fully, and we will not mar it by curtailment. The gallant
colonel, despite his violent radicalism, is decidedly the most
talented man of the anti-corn-law party. We can readily
and honestly afford to say thus much in his behalf. And yet,
whilst we admit his talent, we are not blind to the fallacious
grounds upon which the superstructure of his arguments
against the corn laws are founded ; and shall probably, on a
future occasion, return to an examination of his display of
yesterday. Pass we therefore the gallant colonel for the
present, and next—
But how shall we describe thee—most inimitable of orators,
most rare of grimacers, most profound of financiers, philo-
sophers, calico-printers, and pirates—John Brooks ? A
diamond in the rough art thou—a Cicero—a Socrates—a
Liston ;—but language cannot describe thee, and thy speech
the pen of a short-hand writer cannot report. How could
it, when the face speaks so much more than the tongue can
utter, and when the breeches pocket speaks more than face
and tongue combined? We can neither describe nor report,
then, this cotton phenomenon; but we can offer him, most
respectfully, a word of advice. " All the world's a stage,"
says Shakspeare; and he knew the world and the actors in it.
" All the world's a cotton factory," is the opinion, however,
of John Brooks. " Motley's your only wear," was the
opinion of Shakspeare's melancholy Jacques ; " calico,"
cries the honourable member for High-street—we beg his par-
don,—the ex-mayor of Manchester. Do—do—good kind gen-
tleman, when you next adventure to enlighten the peopleof this
benighted village—when you bring down upon:us the profundity
of your own great city—leave thecounting-house behind you.
Leave at home " the shop"—the print works—Cobden—the
league ; and remember that although we have not here, in
our:reverence for the pocket, laid aside tberold bigotted no-
tions of toryism or whiggery—(few, by the bye, of that creed
will you find just now amongst us)—we have :not as 'yet
debased ourselves to the level of Chartism, and made com-
mon cause with the rabble of the streets as has your mill-
ocracy, Mr. John Brooks.
Upon one subject—the concluding one in your multi-
farious speech—the subject of wages—and your notice of a
rev. gentleman, who has, it seems spoken out too plainlylfor
your peace, we may perhaps have a word with you anon ;
and we may at the same time have a word with your. Guardian
upon the same subject. Meantime farewell—
" And when you next do ride abroad,
May we be there to see !"
The next gentleman introduced to the meeting was Mr.
Charles Holland, who said many wise things, no doubt, which
those who like to peruse that gentleman's vapid mouthings
will, we dare say, meet with in the columns of whichever of our
contemporaries may think them worthy of the trouble of re-
porting.—Mr. Rawling followed Mr. Holland, and the meet-
ing broke up, previous to which, however, the National An-
them was sung, the solo parts by a female singer from Mr.
Aiken's chapel, Mr. Russell presiding at the organ.

DEPOSITION OF A MINISTER OF THE SCOTCH Cnuitcu.
—At the meeting of the Edinburgh Presbytery, last Wednes-
day, the clerk, Dr. Gilchrist, read a letter from Mr. Hay,
of the Dean Church, addressed to the Moderator, making
the acknowledgement that he had been guilty of the sin of
fornication. He was aware of the consequences of this ad-
mission; but he felt still more deeply than these the scandal
he had been the means of bringing upon the name of religion.
He trusted that God had given him grace to repent of his sin,
and he threw himself upon the Presbytery. This gave rise
to a very affecting scene. The letter was read by the clerk
in a solemn and almost inaudible voice, and was followed by
a dead silence in the Presbytery fcr ,:onie minutes. Mr.
Balfour then rose, and though every s:; and but that of his
own voice was hushed, we could only hear an indistinct
sentence, intimating that from all he `lad seen, and from
what he had heard, he believed Mr. Hay to be deeply peni-
tent—nevertheless, the Presbytery had no alternative but
to proceed, in accordance with the rubs of the Church, to
depose him from the office of the holy ministry. A silence
of a still longer interval ensued, broke only by the occasional
whisper of one member to another. After the lapse of
of several minutes, the Moderator (Mr. Bennie) addressed
the Presbytery—" Fathers and brethern, is it your pleasure
to proceed with this bitterly painful case or to delay it? "
No one spoke ; and, after a pause, he added, " If we must
proceed, it is usual in such a case to begin with devotionel
exercises ;and I have t9yequest our Rev. Father, Dr, Brunton
to engage in prayer. ' Dr. Brunton offered up a fervent
and impressive prayer, after which the Moderator'pronounced
the aolernn sentence of deposition,—Witriery. •