The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-01-10 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

Chief Secretary for Ireland. A few days after, the
same Committee that had been negativold, was pro-
posed by Ministers, who took to themselve the credit ,
of what he had suggested. He left it to the House '
`to judge, if he went beyond his duty, in maintaining,
he had a right to institute such a Committee. With
respect to the Report of the Committee, au error had
crept in, which, had it happened in the Irish Portia-
ment, would have been ascribed to the blundering
genius of the nation. A circumstance was stated on
the 14th of Joae, which did not take place till the
Ist of July. Many Members of the Committee had
also•left town when the Report was made. The Hon.
Baronet concluded with moving, That the Account
presented to the House of the Expenditure of Ireland
for the last 20 years, and the Funded Debt of Ire-
land down to January, 1811, should be referred to
a Committee, and a Report be made to the House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
pressed a wish that the Account of the Debt should
be brought down to the present year. With regard
to the Hon. Baronet's remarks upon the appoint-
ment of a Committee, his fame could not depend
upon any circumstance of that kind. The Hon. Baro-
net had given notice of a motion regarding the re-'I
♦enue of Ireland, 1w (Mr. Perceval) though it would
be better if the Resolution should be preceded by
inquiry. lie had accordingly moved for inquiry, but
the Hon. Baronet wished to take it out of his
bands. There was no objection to the Committee
last year, and he presumed there could be none at
present. lie regretted the absence of the Chairman
of that Onnmittee. The principal of the Report had
been agreed upon, and a kind of discretionary power
Lad been given to the Chairman. Ile should be happy
to share with the Right Hon. Gentleman in the glory
of the transaction.

• Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that he wished the
same Members to compose the present Committee,
with the exception of the two who had never at-
tended, and that he wished to substitute the Members
for Cork and Glasgow, in the room of Mr. Leslie
Foster and Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald, who did not
attend.

This gave rise to some conversation betwixt the
Chancellor of the Exchequer and Sir J. Newport,
and ended in the Member for Cork being appointed
on the Committee.
CHARITABLE DONATIONS.
Mr. LOCKHART observed, that he had received
many valuable suggestions on this subject, through
which he trusted he should be able more eilktually
to attain his object. He now intended to omit the
penalty at the suit of an informer, and he trusted no
person could object to a petition to the Chancellor,
rai Master of the Rolls. The amount of the proper-
ly' thirty y ears ago, was 260,0001. and should now
bodouble. The greatest publicity should be given to
donations of this nature, which should be•regarded in
tho light of public money, and the names of the do-
nors and of the trustees should be stated in a register,
to which there could be no objection, and informa-
tion given against those who refused. Power should
be given to the Chancellor, the Master of the Rolls,
and the Barons of the Exchequer, to determine all
causes not upon the information of one evidence, but
of two or more. He wished to avoid saying any
thing harsh of any individual, but many of these in-
stitutions had been neglected, and, under proper
management, might be rendered much more produc-
tive, and induce others to follow en example so be-
neficial to the community. The Hon. Gentleman
concluded with moving for a register of Charitable
Donations, and that meant should be taken to cor-
rect the abuses that at present might exist respecting
them.—Ordered.
Mr. FRF.EMANTLE moved for an Account of
the Consolidated Fund, and of the income and charges
for the years 1810 and 1811, and also for the amount
of the new Taxes.

This was resisted by the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, on the ground that it was the uni-
form practice of the House to order such a statement
to be wade.

Some dissuasion ensued, in which the Chan*nor
of the Exchequer, Mr. 'Tierney, Mr. Homer, and
Mr. Freemantle bore a part, and terminated in Mr.
Freemantle giviug notice of a motion for to-morrow
upon the subject.

HIS MAJESTY'S HEALTH.
pr. Secretary RYDER moved for a Select Com-
mittee to examine the Physicians respecting the state
pf his Majesty's Health, and the same who had been
Members of the last Committee, with the substitution
of the ltight Ilon. Charles Long, in the room of the
Right Hon. R. Dundas, now Lord Melville, and of
Sir John Nicholls, iu the room of Sir William Scott,
were chosen. No Members of the House, unless also
Membei a olds* Committee, to be present.
ORDERS AND NOTICES.
The em4l4loEldiOß of the 1411.CHEQUAll welted, diet
She -tarsal' the lst of last Jour should be read,
Taal 110 private RIM should be read a first time, after Mon-
day, the 24th of February. —Ordered.
That no Report should be received after the 20th of April
pest.—Ordered.
That all Orders for Monday and Friday, should be disposed ad
before Notices.
Mr. WHITBREAD contendetl, that this had a tendency to
trench upon the liberty of debate, as last Session the Minister
was in the habit of eallirtir for particular Orders ; [hear ! hear
aad hr likewise disliked the practice of Notices being formally
recognised by the Moose.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER vindicated the
practice of last Session, and Contended, that it did not at all
precliitie a motion being made without previous notice. With
respect to them, the House would act jest as it had done before.
There bad been no disposition last Session on the Ministerial
side of the Mouse to make any improper use of the new regula-
tion, and should any new law be attempted to be logtatted,
the How would act as the case required.
Mr. ABERCROM RI r was far from imputing any improper
motives to the Right lion. Gentles an, he only conceived there
was an error in Judgment. He must object to recognising the
prictice of giving e previous notice, forego.: hear !)%ad also of
_pllowing the Minister to call for particular Orders. To avoid a
srivial inconvenience, a much greater would, by the present
management, be lectured.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT was adverse to the mono-
'ration proposed by the Right Honourable creatlemen.
He had opposed it last Session, and was still of the
same opinion, notwithstanding last year's experi-
ence, so much boasted of on the other aide of the

;louse. Should the Right Honourable Gentleman,
therefore, persist in his motion of giving the prece-
dency to Orders, be should move as an amendment,
Oat All Orders should be brought forward in rota-
tion, exactly as they stood in the Order Book ; that
Ministers a/i(Olt net have a preferedee, to the preju-
dice of other business, often not less interesting to
the Public, nor less important than the questions
brqught forward In the At of Ministers. Uy the
jib ii9n. Gendepan's proposed arrangement, the

WPM
more important business, if not patronized by Minis.
ters, would, as during last Session, be postponed till
a late hour, when the House would neither have in-
clination nor ability to do justice to the discussion.—
He concinded accordingly by moving, That after the
words " disposed of," there be inserted f' in exact
rotation as they stand in the Order Book."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER op-
posed the Amendment, as calculated to introduce a
very considerable difference in the practice of the
House.—[Near, hear! from the Ministerial Benchn,
.fidiotzed by loud cries of hear; heart hear! from
the Opposition.] He maintained that it would mete
a very considerable deviation from all their format
practice, and from the practice of last Session, from
which the dispatch of business, he contended, de.
rived so much advantage, The consequence of ad-
hering so closely in rotation would be, that all pab-
lic business would be necessarily postponed till after
the second or third reading of Private contested fills,
and a Canal or Inclosure Bill would thus engross thnt
time and attention of the House, which ought to be
devoted to public business. [Hear, hear !] The
effect would be, that the most important business
would be put off till three or four in the morning,
when •the House would be less capable of entering on
discussion. Every Private Bill would thus have the
precedency of the Committees of Supply and Ways
and Means, to the great prejudice of the publie ser-
vice. By adopting the Amendment, the greatest in-
convenience, he contended, would be immediately
felt. He trusted, therefore, that the House would
see its impropriety, and give it that negative which
the public interest required.
Mr. I'ONSONBY admitted that there was some
weight in what the Right Hon. Gentleman had
stated ; but the inconvenience, he apprehended, grew
out of the practice introduced by.himself, and there-
fore was not to be attributed to the Amendment
which the Hight Hon. Gentleman's measure rendered
necessary. If some inconvenience resulted from the
measure proposed by the Amendment, it vas an infe-
rior one to that arising from the original Motion, if
not so modified as the Right Honourable Baronet
proposed. The whole, in his mind, was a clear de-
monstration of the impropriety of departing from
the practice and usages of that House, and lie called
on them, therefore, to pause before lending their
sanction to such a deviation.

Lord FO ESTO N K denied the consequences ap-
prehended from the Amendment by the Right lion.
Gentleman. It was only contested that private
Bills were admitted on the Order Book ; and there
never was an instance, he believed, in which these
were carried be and six o'clock. It was singular
that the Right Hon. Gentleman should object to the
Amendment on the ground of its being an innova-
tion, when he himself was the author of the innova-
tion. They bad certainly had the experience of.ane
Session, but be denied that no inconvenience had
been felt from the Right lion. Gentleman's arrange-
ment. Re himself had felt it last Session, and was
therefore against the original motion, however mo-
dified. Should the motion, however, be carried, the
amendment was in his -opinion necessary, and be
should therefore support it, though against the whole
of the tacasurst as an annommaryinnovation.

House then divided on Amendment.—
For it 15 —Against it 58—Majority against the
Amendment 43.

The original Motion was then adopted without
any division.
On re-entering the Gallery, We found Mr. C
on his legs, with an intention of moving an Amend-
ment to the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, " 'net the House do resolve to-morrow into a
Committee of Supply." This motion originated in
the farther consideration of the Speech addressed to
both Houses of Parliament, by the Conamissionersap-
pointgd to open the Session on the part of the Prince
Regent.
Mr. CREEVEY took a short review of the finan-
cial state of the country. The annual taxes, be
contended, had declined not less than two millions,
while, on the whole, we were five millions worse
this year than we were last. In such a situation,
new taxes would be inevitably necessary ; but, be-
fore calling on their Constituents for new exertions,
it was surely necessary to shew them an example.—
If necessity required such severity towards their
Constituents, it was surely proper that they should
not be over indulgent to themselves. He complained
of the many pensions and sinecure places enjoyed
by individuals, without any adequate services to
the Public. lie complained still more, therefore, 1
that those emoluments should be enjoyed by Mem-
bers of that House for no other reason, as appear-
ed to him, than the vote they were always ready to
give to Ministers. It was surely high time to abo-
lish all such places of emolument as were not neces- I
sary to the public service, when they felt the necessityl
of imposing new burdens on the country, which the !
people were not able to bear. The necessity of this
general reform had been long felt, but they had hi-
therto shewed no disposition to adopt it. Some Reso-
lutions of this description they had come to, but these
had been so feebly followed up, that they had pro-
duced no effect. The remedy remained still to beep- ,
plied, and they should never do any good till they
called over those offices one by one, and abolished all
such as were unnecessary. Instead of this, however,
they only saw new offices and new sinecures created.
Not less than three new offices had been added to
those already held by Members of that House since
they had last separated. He was alarmed by this
growing influence ou the part of the Crown, which
gradually undermined the independence of the House,
and deprived the Public of all hope of a salutary r•-
form. Tile new offices introduced into the House,
to which he had alluded, were those of Clerk of the
Council, Marshal of the Admiralty, and Paymaster
of the Widows' Pensions. All these offices were
now attached to seats in Parliament. To these he
might also add a Master of Chaeeery, an office ha-
stowed, he conceived, for no other reason than
a reward for the political opinions held in that
House by the Honourable• and Learned Geo.
tleman who now enjoyed it. He might add ahol
an office of great emolument lately conferred en Sir
John Sinclair, that of Collector, or Cashier it Eir,
Ole) in Scotland, to which np duties that be knew. 41
were attached. Did any body believe that thee
offices were conferrpci :pr any other reason bah that
of Toting with Ministers is that House 11--.4aald thic
. daily calmnity ud tlistren to which the peopt, WOO'

reduced, was it right or wise to hold out to the pub-
lic that there still remained one good and never-fail-
ing trade, that of being a Member of that house who
votes with the Minister ?—lt was time to have some
regard for their own character, and to convince the
public that they laboured without interest or emolu-
ment for the common good. The nature and emer-
gency of the times required this sacrifice, and he
could not fulfil his duties better, as a Member of
II Parliament, than by directing the attention of the
House to this subject. This was the object of his in.
tended motion, though he was anxious so to frame it,
as not to take the House by surprise. It was time
to put an Sod to the present system, otherwise, he
feared, that the evil would still increase, till cor-
ruption, in defiance of all decency and decorum,
should be openly acknowledged and avowed. Of
those offices to which he had alluded, there was
one he felt of the greatest delicacy, and it was
with reluetaace that he found himself obliged to
advert to it—he meatit that of Colonel M'Mahon,
to whose worth and virtues he was ready to bear the
moat ample testimonies. He had known him for
years, and a more faithful and upright servant, no'
Prince could ever boast of. But, however high and
distinguished were the merits of this lion. Gentle-
man, and however highly recommended by his good
and amiable qualities, those who advised the Prince
to bestow the office of Paymaster of the Widows'
1 Pensions upon him, not only forgot their duty to the
public, but injured Mr. M'Mahon himself iu the
most sensible part. They gave Trim an office that was ,
invidious in itself, and that was an outrage to the
House, after the repeated declarations and resolutions
they had adopted, It was now 29 years ago since
a Financial Commission appointed by the House, had
declared this office to be a perfect sinecure. The
Commissioners of Military Inquiry had, four yeariago,
confirmed this opinion, declaring that the place was
useless, and that it ought tobe abolished as soon as
the patent was out, by which General Fox then held
it. In the face, however, of these repeated declara-
tions—in defiance of these two Commissions, Mini-'
sters had advised the Prince still to continue it, and
to dispose of it by a new appointment. Why then I
should they name Commissioners, and call 011 Gen-
tlemen to ransack the list of public places, and to I
distinguish between those that were necessary and
such as were useless, if the Crown was still to be
advised, notwithstanding their labours and declare- 1
tions, to persevere in so pernicious a system? It
was in vain that that House should labour to correct I
the evil, if their eudeavours, instead of being attend-
ed to by Ministers, were to bo openly and avow-
edly contemned. That the conduct of Ministers was
highly culpable there was no doubt; but how was;
he to arraign that conduct, if not by an humble Ad-;
dress to the Prince Regent, expressing their disap-
probation, and praying for an abolition of such ofli-;
ces lis added to the public expenditure without con-
tributing
to the service of the country. He, there-
fore, wished that the House should go into the 1
necessary inquiry, and concluded by moving,
as an amendment to the original motion, That
the Minus will, to-morrow, in a Committee
l of Stapp! ) take into consideration the Places
and Sin res held by Members of that House.
etiA
The SP KEE suggested, that the more regular
1 mode of proceeding would be to move that the Com-
mittee of Supply be postponed till after the inquiry
which was the object of this Motion. He appre-
hended it was ingotsr to proceed by Amendment.
Mr. CREEVEY observed, that last Session he
had proposed a similar Amendment with respect to
the two Tellers of the Exchequer. He was prevailed
on, however, after some conversation, to alter his
Motion, and moved, that the Committee of Supply
be postponed till to-morrow se'nnight, for the pur-
pose of taking into consideration the Offices and
Emoluments held by Members of that House.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER, on
the question being put, observed, that the Hon. Gen-
tleman had stated that there had been a great acces-
sion to the Places and Emoluments held by persons
that were Members of the House. Did the Hon.
Gentleman mean to say, that there were any places
illegally held by Members of that liouse ? It was
well known, that any officeconferred by the Crown,
required a Member to vacate his seat. It therefore
remained with his Constituents to determine whether,
in such circumstances, he was a fit person to represent
them. The Hon. Gent. ought, at least, to have waited
till the return of those, but he seemed to think that
the circumstance of being a Member of that House
ought to disqualify any man from holding an office of
state. What would be the result of such a doc-
trine if adopted, but to exclude those who were best
qualified from holding any civil Office ? The in-
jury the public service must sustain from such a
practice was evident. A Barrister who showed the
'greatest 'talents and ability in his profession, would'
thus be shut out from all preferment, merely because
he had the misfortune to be a Member of that House.
The Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to shew 'that
any of the offices referred to had been improperly con-
ferred, or that the persons appointed were not duly
qualified from capacity and talent to hold theni. He
had in no instance blamed Ministers for an impro-
per selection; on the contrary, he had allowed to
Colonel M'Afiabon all that was his due from his long
and faithful services, and in doing so he had done
that Hon. Gentleman nothing more than justice.-
1 For himself he tould say, that for the short time
be had been acquainted with the Colonel McMahon, all
that the Hoo. Gentleman had said of him he felt to be
true. Was it then consistent In this Hon. Gentleman
to maintain that, however deserving of reward were
the services of Mr. M'Mahon, yet it was disgraceful
on the part of the Prince, and as outrage on the
House, to confer upon him a place which was not
more than his merits entitled him to? It would have
bee* well if the Hon. Gentleman had inquired into
the nature of tbe grant to Colonel M'Mahou before
pressing the subject on the House, or at least into
the nature of tie office itself. lie would have found
that the office never was for life, and was never held
by patent, and that Colonel McMahon was appoint-
* *der the same circumstances as General Fox:—
The Hon. Gentleman had said, that the appointment
was discassfal to The Prince, and lying in the face
of the House; bat he could assure that Gentleman
that the Howse had never adopted any Resolution
that rendered the appointment impracticable or im-
proper. With due deference, however, to the opi-
ilia 4 OW c9ll4l4,Sioners 9f 4'07, it had been

conatnunicated to Colonel M'Mahon by the Priore
previous to his appointment, that he was to 1:o!(1
subject to any arragement that Parliament might aft, 1.
wardsadopt[flear.hear!,fromthelifinisterial
and louder cries of hear, hear ! from the Oppositiunl.
Men, ho remarked, were possessed of different
derstandings, and were therefore susceptible of dif-
ferent impressions from the same causes ; but he
was not sensible of any thing he had said that shoull
call forth those loud exclamations. Were it possible
that any thing could remove the calumnious re pro.
sentations made by the Hon. Gentleman, what he
had now stated oughlfo' have that effect; but th!.se
Gentlemen seemed to bo confirmed in the opinioa
they had adopted, and were determined to 'oe dea,
to every explanation. They ought to look at th,
hue of conduct followed by the Housa. The floni,,
had resolved that Sinecure Places ought to be alp).
lished, but first that sonic (Aker mode of remuner„

ting high and distinguished services should be resot;.
ed to. Colonel M'Mahon's merits were readily at'.
mined; and so long as this otlice was not 2401islice,
Ives there any impropriety in resorting to it for the
reward which Colonel M‘Mahon's merits entitled him
to? Was there any impropriety in citing him this
previous to any ether arrangement by pension or
otherwise. The graut of the place didrnot preclude
the House from any future resolution respectiak
it. He had never witnessed a motion before the
House on more futile and nugatory grenuds.
Mr. BROUGHAM was by uo means satisfied With
this explanation of the Right Hon.Gentleinae. He
readily submitted to all that had been said of tha
merits of Col..M‘Mahon, though he perhaps had
less right to speak in his praise than fahers, having
not the honour of being personally acquainted with
him. All that he had heard, however, of that Ceti.
Homan, fully justified the statements that had now
bceu made, but the more deserving the person the
greater he conceived was the danger of such appoint.
remits. He contended that the House iu no very
calm debate had given its sanction to the resolutions
of the several Commissioners of Inquiry, though
opposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He hers
1,
read the resolution of the House respecting tbeebo.
Mien of sinecures, which provides au exception is
cases of reward for having held high and erectly*
civil offices.—[/leae! hear!]—However respertsSie '
' Colonel M'Mahon's services, was it possible that
Gentlemen should confound the Household of Carl,
ton.house with high and effective civil calm It was
high Law Officers that were alluded to, and diitia,
' guished Officers of the Army and Navy. It WAN a
mere jest to talk of Colonel M'Mahon's having
been in the eye of the House in forming t
Resolution, unless Ministers pretended to have con,
(erred this office upon him as a military man, Cij,:t)
he did not.think they would be bold enough to pre!!
sume. Conformably to this Resolution of the Hotels
all offices were to be abolished that were without
employment, and the Report of the Commissioners
stated this to be one of this description, and that it
ought to be abolished on the expiration of the life
,of the person then holding it. But what did the
Ministers do but advise his Royal Highness, not.
! withstanding this declaration to eon nue it by a
n
new appointment. The Right on. Gtilltlemae, hoer.
ever, says, that the place is held subject to any fu.
1 ture arrangement of Parliament. This certainly is
a very deep discovery, as if the property c: every
man were not held on the same tenure, whether
lands, pensions, or places. All offices were held is
the same way, and this conduct only showed that M.
nisters were aware that they were acting wrong, and
in the face of the known declarations of the Hoes;
of Commons. Be wished his Ron. Friend had
omitted his remarks respecting the (Alice of Master
of Chancery, as he felt that he could not so far go
along with him. With respect to the Cashier of Exv
cisc in Scotlandt he observed that Ministers, by be•
stowing such places. were throwing new irn:esdiments
toe way of that Reform which had beer. the object
of the several Commissions of Inquiry, and that they
had persevered, notwithstanding the warning wide;
he understood they had received.
Mr. CHOKER observed, that the Learned Gentle.
man had said, that one of the offices adverted to had
better been let alone, and in his opinion there was
another that would have been also better omitted, he
meant that of Clerk of the Council, which was grant-
ed above twenty-five years ago, and had therefore
nothing to do with the present Minister. 'f hg Hon.
Glittlemen were, perhaps, not aware that that Ceti*
tleman's seat had been vacated in consequence, and
that a new writ had been this very day issued. Ile
Iconceived the Learned and Honourable Gentleman
I had read the Resolutions of the House unfairly, as it
admitted the office to be either abolished or rteu-
lated. Ile saw no harm that could Islet from 'Col:
M'Slahon's holding the office till either &bell:died_ or.
ta.gdlated by Parliament, partioidaajt'as "tiOnScr small
duties were attached to it, those; he acknowledged
they were not great.
Mr. CREEVEY explained,
Mr. BROUGHAM and Mr. CHOKER mutually
explained.
Mr. STEPIIEN said, he was not present when the
Hon. Gentleman introduced his motion, though, from
his explanation, he now learned that he had formed
part of the subject of his observations. Ile was cert
tainly grateful to him for the merit he allowed him",
but thought it would have been only candid to have
previously given him some notice of his design. his
deprecated the idea, that being a Member of that
House should preclude a Gentleman from all pre.
ferment in the may of his profession, and observed,
that his emoluments might have been much mor.., if
he had confined himself to private life.
Mr. WHITBREAD began by observing, that the.
Hon: Gentleman who had just sat down had dis-
played rather more warmth than the occasion secetti
exactly to demand. Ile agreed, however, with his
Honourable Friend (Mr. Brougham) that it had b: en
better if the Honourable Mover had adverted to the si-
tuation of the Master in Chancery earlier, or not at all.
No appointment had taken place with more publicity
at the time, or had been more before the p iblic : aid
if any thine was to be objected to, the proper time
for bringing forward such objection would have been
at a less recent period than the present. He was
happy, however, to admit the great finless of the
Hon. Gent. for the station which he filled, and which
he was far from regarding as a sinecure. He con-
ceived, indeed, that the intention of the Iron. Mover
was not to censure the appointment, individually, to