The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-05-09 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

him in many respects. Though unable to follow Mm .
through the whole chain of his reasoning, he hoped
be a ould be ante to show himself no unworthy dis-
ciple. He entirely concurred with him in think*
thst our Constitution was founded on prescription,
not on theory. And he entirely dissented from a
p which he had often heard laid deism in
ill
ciciple
•
oat Rouse and out of it, but by none more fre-
cooly than by an Hon. Baronet, whom he now saw
i;, his Places namely, that the system of reform
,oici, was sought by him, and those who thought
like him, was not innovation. He believed that
tbov,e who judged in this manner were far from
distinguishing the whole nature of the question. In
cis mind an attempt at such a reform as was wished
for was one of a purely experimental nature, and
hanothing like sound precedent upon which it could
be grounded. No plan borrowed from a remote period
of society, could be said to be calculated to promote
the happiness of society, when much farther advanced,
and this was a position which was capable of being
demonstrated. The Honourable Baronet would pro-
bably contend, that he did not seek for innovation,
that he only wanted to bring back that which had
been. and exhibit a design from times of the Anglo-
Saxons or Normans; but surely it ought not to be
necessary to show that such a plan would be certainly
repugnant to the character and spirit of the present
sr. By what he had said, he had endeavoured not
to impugn altogether the cause of reform, but to
shoe how necesary it was to approach that quest'
with every possible (notion. would presentation of.
the people were inadequate, he not be forward
to thwart any temperate measure which might be
wished for the remedy of such an evil. What had
been said of the character of the House was well
worth the attention which had been bestowed on it.
Be ass not unwilling to admit, that his mind could,
of necessity, be more or less distorted by the impres-
sions which, as a party man, he was exposed to re-
ceive; hut as far as he could be supposed to use his
unbiassed judgment, so far would the influence of his
opinion he felt, that the House had of late sunk consi-
derably in the estimation of the people. There were i
two points in particular on which a reduction of con-
fidence was founded. The first was, the open and un-
blushing defence which had been made of the principle
of Parliamentary corruption. When the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, and the then Secretary for Fo-
reign Affairs, had been openly charged with traffick-
ing for seats is that House, could any thing, he
would ask, be more calculated to excite the indigna-
tion of the people, than the ready acquittal they had
found? They had lost much ground also,with the
people by the vote on the Walcheren expedition; and
as in both these affairs the then interest of Ministers
were immediately merged, it was obvious that votes
of so corrupt a nature were to be traced to the in-
fluence of the Crown. What we were therefore
chiefly concerned to obtain was an abatement of the
influence of the Crown; not any change as to the
description of persons who sat in that House. Could
any man doubt, for a moment, that therd was at pre-
sent to be found in it as great a mass of knowledge,
talent, and ability of every description as could be
introduced by any reform in the representation ? He
would repeat that the influence •of the Crown was.
the great evil of which we complained. This waif
what abated the authority of the House, and aroused
the jealousy of the country. He would not pry
upon the consequence which might flow from it un-
der the present set of men in particular ; he did not
wish to disparage any set of men, but it. was clear
that the most destructive use could be made of such
an engine. He wished, therefore, for a diminution
of its powers, he wished to see in that assembly a
decrease of placemen, and an increase of popular re-
presentatives. Such a change, however, he could not
entertain a hope of seeing, so long as the temper re-
mains, by which he now perceived the House to be
actuated. Even throughout the nation in general
there was unfortunately a growing indifference per-
ceptible to all political concerns, which was, in it'
opinion, likely to very much reduce the value of the
English character. A set of hereditary notions werel
acquiesced in, and an aversion to every improvement
cherished, which was highly unworthy of Englishmen.
Mr. W. WARD was sure that if the Constitution
if England were compared with that of other coun-
tries, as it had existed, and as it did exist, it would
only gain by the comparison. There was no better
test of its excellence than the happiness of the peo-
le who had so long lived under its influence.
[Hear, hear!] In taking a view of the prosperity
of the people, as constrasted with other countries,
it v' ould be found that for the last 20 years, in spite
of the wars which had existed, they had risen in
power and in greatness, while the whole of the Con-
tinent had fallen. under foreign conquest and des-
potism. He did not mean to say that the Constitu-
tion had reached the acme of perfection, yet he saw
no grouse!, for these continued attempts which were
made to disgust the people, and render them dissa-
tisfied with their situation. Where, he would ask,
was the nation in the world whose political happi-
ness was equal to that of Great Britain? While
she had scarce tasted the cup of bitterness, the
other parts of the world had drank it to the
dregs. There was hardly ever a period when cor-
ruption was so rare in Parliament, when compared
with the days of King William and Queen Anne,
their most notorious delinquencies were mere venal
offences; and yet the great men of that day, whose
abilities were well known, had never harboured the
idea of having recourse to a fundamental change in
the Constitution itself.—ln his opinion the Reform
now proposed would have the effect of excluding
men of business, and acquainted with finance, from
the House. Reformed or unreformed they ntusteon-
tinue to make great sacrifices, and it would be well
if they did not tamper with the Constitution till they
overturned the whole fabric of their ancestors. He
differed from his Right lion. Friend (Mr. Elliott) as
to the increased influence of the Crown. So far
from being barely sufficient to carry on the Govern-
ment, it was felt in every ramification of the State
and almost in every family. But it was in vain to talk
of Parliamentary Reform as curbing this influence,
Which it would rather increase by injuring the aris-
tocracy, the solid and steady check on the Crown.
A morning well spent in Downing-street was worth
many nights spent in debate in that House. And,
instead of questions being decided by votes of Bo-
rough Members over the virtuous Patriots and county
Members, if they looked to the real state of the

fact, they would find that the reverse was the case.
lOn the Walcheren Question, for instance, which,
in his opinion, ought to have been carried in another
way, three out of four of the Members of the City
of London voted for the Administration. The re-

suit of the argument, then, would be, that London
should be disfranchised, or converted into two rot-
ten Boroughs. He believed, that innovation, so far
from producing good, would do great evil. It
would introduce a power in the people over the
votes and decisions of the House, and the purposes
of the Executive. Now, the people were some-
times violent, and when violent, generally wrong,
calling for peace, when peace would be disgraceful ;
or for war, when war would be impolitic. On such
occasions, the advantage of the House of Com.
ntons was most apparent. They spoke the sense
of the people, not from day to day, but from pe-
riod to period—on the aggregate, and not as mo-
mentarily,inllamed by ignorance or passion.- Not
but that public opinion ought to be attended to—
the present constitution of Parliament did not en-
able them to oppose' the public will, but only to se-
perato the right of appeal to their future judg-
ments. Another consequence would be, that no
man could be in the House, without being of im-
mense property, or having ingratiated himself with
a large body of the people. This would intro-
duce cabal and disturbances in courting popular
prejudices, and the favour of whatever party pre-
vailed. He could dread nothing more, thasi thus
he teach every man, that the west course is pail-
deal power was popularity, and the effect of which
would be, that, instead of such Members as now
adorned the Home by their talents, who, by an early
life, spent in study and application, had fitted them.
selves for the task of legislation, they would have
those whose early lives had been spent in procuring
local influence, and in mountebank tricks, for the
attainment of popularity. When he recalled to me-
mory, the great names that had, by this means, been
first introduced to public life, where they had af-
terwards been so conspicuously useful, he was not
prepared to cut the contaminated soil (as it was
stated) from under the feet of all succeeding gene-
rations. His objection to the proposition was, not
bet that some change might not be beneficial, but
that the innovation was an invasion upon, with the
risk of running through and destroying the whole
established order of things. With regard to Scot-
land, he Would say, that no boon could be more
unexpected, than that wished to be bestowed on
that country, from which there was not a single
Petition, or desire of change in the mode of their
11 representation, though Petitions might be got on 1
any subject, and from any place.—[Hear, hear 1—
Their Royal Boroughs might be most ridiculous
and anomalous in theory, but they had answered
all useful purposes, and returned able and enlight-
ened men to watch over the interests of the people
in Parliament. They were on the worst of all
systems : unlike that of Rosseau, for Poland—the
Ist, 2d, or 3d Constitutions of France—or any
that ever filled the Abbe Sieyes' pigeon-holes :
but yet he should not wonder if they survived after
all these were forgot, or only remembered with exe-
cration. It was well to talk of moderate Reform
there; but if they went a few paces in the Stable. ,
rd, what would they hear? Why, a moderate
r durst scarcely shew his face in that qua.
ter. He would have thought his Hon. Friend (Mrs
Brand) had had some experience of this, as he slaW'
from a pamphlet published by Mr. Roscoe, in *newt,
to his private letter proposing a plan of moderate
Reform, which, he trusted, would satisfy every
one. Instead of this, he was told, that no•such
thing would do, and that at the very first move, every
housekeeper at least must have a vote. It was, there.
fore, idle to talk of the healing nature of moderate
Reform, for nothing short of fundamental and radi-
cal change would content the party who stood up
for this. Concession would only increase the strength
of this now poor minority in the country, and
no good could result therefrom. They must strug-
gle for the preservation of the blessings they
bad enjoyed; and let them then make their stand on
the immemorial usages and practices of their ances-
tors, and the practical advantages which had been
derived from them. If, on the contrary, they acceded
to the pitiful cant of being no longer the Commons
representing the people, they would laugh at their
moderate Reform, despise them, and proceed to the
consummation of their own principles, which were
utterly incompatible with those blessings, in the en.
joyment of which, they had so long lived. Such coo-
-1 cession would only be taken as a demonstration of
i weakness, and would be sacrificing the interests of the
great majority of the people, still true to the Consti.
I tution and Government of the country. For, with
these radical reformers, there might be truce, but
there could he no peace.
Sir F. BURDETT said, that he felt some burthen
thrown upon him in replying to the very elaborate
speech of the lion. Gentleman, which was so well de-
livered, and so agreeably pronounced, In which the
Hon. Gentleman had attempted to shew, that the
House, as it now stood, and a real Mathis of
the people of the country. He should be to
shew, that the lion. Gentleman was not more con•
sistent with himself and his own arguments than he
had been with all the old recognised constitutional
principles. Ile trusted es firmly as the lion. Gentle.
man, that by the constitution of the country we would
be enabled to hold, or rather to recover, the liberties
of the country. The arguments of the Hon. Gentle-
man were sometimes its complete contradiction to one
another. At one time he contended that the House
did act in unison with the sentiments and feelings of
the country, and therefore that the representation
was a proper one. At another time he said, that if
the House were returned in such a manner as really
to represent the country, he should apprehend the
greatest dangers from such a change in our system.—
If that were the case, he must conceive that the.peo.
pie were hostile to the interests of the country ; and
if so, would he say that the House of Commons in
its present state, spoke the sense of the peoples--
The Honourable Gentleman feared, that if the
House of Commons were better constituted, and
more truly represented the people of England,
they would be liable to be shaken by every gust of
popular opinion. He, for bis part; would always
stick up for the right which the Constitution of this
country gives to the people, of having their share in
the Government. It be Weft Vika what their skim

was; he should answer directly, that the election of
representatives in the Houseof Commons was the share
of the Government to which the people were entitled.
Now the House had been told this night, for the
first time, that those parts of the Constitution which
were hitherto considered the most unsound and rot-
ten, were, in fact, those from which it derived the
most advantages ; and that it was the rotten bo-
roughs that were to be considered as the soundest
parts of the Constitution. [Hear!]: It was from the
rotten boroughs, according to the Hon. Gent. that all
the men of great information, talents, arid so forth,
got iuto Parliament. If, however, the House wished
really to know what the state of the representation
way he would refer them to a petition presented in I
1793, ankoffered to be proved on evidence at their
bar. That petition stated that the majority of
that House was returned by twelve or thirteen
thousand individuals, the greater part of whom had
no property at all, and were not persons who should
be even allowed to have votes for the election of
Members of Parliament. If this was the real sites-.
tion of the representation of this country (and it
had been offered to be proved that it was so), hi
would say that he hardly knew any form of Govern.
ment that he would not prefer to it. He should ra.
ther that the Crown was despotic at once, than it
should be made despotic by this complicated machi:
nery ; which did not alter the despotic power of the
Crown, but made it much more expensive to the sub,
Jed. ile.nhauld prefer any sort of aristocracy ts
tllme net et ;Government .he had described. Without
looking to the Statute Book, or thee ancient princi.
plea of our Constitution, he would say that the mo-
dern authorities, and particularly Judge Blackstone,
had laid down the right of the people to be fully and
fairly represented, in such terms as would be hardly
allowable now to use in the „House. A Right Hon.
Gent. (Mr. Elliott) who spoke early in the debate, ap-
peared to consider, that to go very far back into the
history of our Constitution, for the purpose of al-
tering its present practice, might be considered as
great an innovation as any other. For his part, he
would not allow that the Great Charter was an ob-
solete Act ; bat when he found in addition to that,
the opinions of Lord Coke and all the funda.
mental writers on the subject, and also Statute after
Statute, saying that taxes could not be legally
raised but by the consent of the people repro
rented in Parliament, and that the elections -should
be free and fair—when he saw all those authorities,
ancient and modern, by the side of reason and com-
mon sense, he must say, that it was the Constitution
to which the people of this country were entitled,
that they should be fully, fairly, and freely repre-
sented in the Commons Ilonse of Parliament, and
that taxes could not be fairly levied but by the con-
sent of the people, expressed by their real represen-
tatives. It was said, however, that it was so hard
to strike oat a proper plan of reform, that no set of
reformers could meet upon the subject without dis-
agreements among themselves. If this were true, it
proved nothing: for would it be said that any other
set of men assembled to discuss any other sullied,
perfectly agreed in their opinions? When Ministers
met, for trxevnple, to consider what taxes were to be
raised, could it be supposed their opinions exactly
coincided? When they met to plan expeditions,
however, it was well known there were differences.
[4 lasfeesid cAeeriaga It was not only rtLtiret
of Reformers that they must perfectly agree an thur
opinions, bet that they should also be much better than
other men, and absolutely faultless. Those on the
other side of the question conceived themselves enti-
tled to support all manner of corruptions, if they
could but show that the Reformers were not per-
fectly agreed among themselves, or that they were
not absolutely faultless. Montesquieu, and all those
writers who had celebrated most the English Consti-
tution, conceived the chief beauty of it to be, that
taxes could not be raised, except by the free consent
of the people in Parliament. If the people, then,
were not fairly represented in Parliament, they had
no opportunity of expressing what was, or what was
not, done by their free consent. A Right Hon.
Gentleman, now no more, (Mr. Windham) who
was possessed of great talents, but who had been
one of the most poworipi opposers of the cause of
Reform in Parliament, nesor went to the length
which the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Ward) had
gone to. He never defended rotten boroughs and
corruption as things good in themselves; but all
his argument was, that the people were so thorough-
ly corrupted, from the top to the bottom, that he
thought'so plan which was proposed could be of any
service. He had thought that there was no prevent-
ing the rich from giving bribes, or the poor from
taking them • and that if Miaiaters had net also
this power, ;be wheels of Goverment could not go
on. Now to him it appeared, that corruption was
nothing more than giving an unfair advantage to a
part, to the prejudice of thewhole ; and that to give
this undue advantage to one, there must be a rob-
bery of twenty. He conceived that the people
could not have more crying evils to complain of than
I the corruption of Parliament and the corruption of
the repeesentation. Aplust such corruptions our
anteaters token drew their swords. It was one of :
the seetousi•harges aside against Richard 11. that by
rewards and menaces he contrived to influence or.
pack a Parliaments He knew that it was always
said on the other hand, that we now were getting on
much better than our ancestors did ; het it appeared
to him, that unless there was a real representation
le the country, there was no check at all to the
wieestive power; Which was mach the same thing as
hating no. Constitution at all. BOOMS be contended
Si mods as was in his power, that the
people ought '
te have their share in the. Government, was that a
Onion why he should be charged with mischievous I
Istatitteus, by those whose pockets were filled with
I the piddle money ? It was somewhat strange that the
Hee . Gentleman (Mr. Ward) should have been al-
ine* eoestantly found in opposition to the measures
Ms Majesty's Government, which he now dis-
liviletto be in unison with the genera l feeling of the
[Hear, Bear !j That lion. Gentleman
oo given his opinion, that the Government
eheil completely disgraced by the Watching &r-
-adon, but stated that this was not the opinion of
the leffilic at tarp. If this Were the cesev who I
ought to- be the of thi enedect of his M
a-
jesty's blietatererdrile the Hoooerebie -Geotl
me to' .be the sole iedie, &Amid not ibe
roes be allowed to judge II 'Skit' roil rep*

~.,

:~.~s
r3i _ .

I. •

~r.:~'

:r ~ ~..