The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-04-15 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

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A mhsetetlore; the system es, t.sere gone; upon was to propose to the House. • The Right Hon.-Gentle:
altogether (Lieeteous : for if we alio vied persons ill mate however, bad presented the accounts in a fai-
th t, charmer to draw for estravagents sums, for lacious peint •f view, and.hadscirawn inferences from
irecoreseeri expenditure, it a ould male them less at. them that could not be supported. He perfectly
teutise to the burthetts imposed upon one country.— agreed with the Right Hon . Gentleman, that the
So tar as re.oeved the charges made bs Lord Aber- dignity of the Court should be supported, and that
demi, he really tielieved that ilimo was not a farthing the public should be protected against wanton prodi-
for w licit the Noble Lord could tint account; but gality on the part of the Crown. lie trusted that
he maintained that it %vas urrnecessaly for an Eng- the House, by proper investigation, would be ade-
lisp Ambilsador to give such expensive treats, in Ciliate to both those objects. The Right Hon. Gen-
order that this country niteiit maintain a precedence. demur had been pleased to treat with disrespect the
o.ther netions hail not the means of supporting such labours of former Committees; but he lied not done
extravagaitice,:and the people of England might not justice to them, as they had been productive of great
to la• charges with-such loose and unnecessary ex- public advantage, though not vested with the powers
penditure. In thi• class, ceine the history of the for which the Right lieu. Gentleman then moved.—
eichassy to Lisbon ; and he should be glad to know Tile Right Hon. Gentleman had complimented the
wits Ireisters hail s, Jed a common elivoysitip into Treasury on the new regulation of the Board of
as etuttasey, aud hat, appointed Mr. Canning to the %Yolks, but lie hoped lie would allow him to do jus-
sit cation of Airitnt,.sadui will. 14,0001. a year ? He tice to the Noble Lord at the head of the Lord Chem-
. should like to know why it was that Lisbon was to berlain's Department, who almost proposed the se-
be raised to an embassy ? It that Right Hon. Gen- motion. It would be necessary for him to clear
tlepaagi were its 'he How, he should not call him to the Civil List from the obloquy which the Right Ho-
act' wit ;it wead not, he thought, be fair, since flesh pourable Gentleman had thrown upon it. lie had
alai ntil could not resist such temptations.—[All said, that the average expenditure of the Civil List
tozdt.3-I'hat Right lion. Gentleman
,was deputed for seven years, was 927,0001. ; but, upon the re-
to niva,- eloquent speeches to tee Prince Regent of trospect of that period, he would ask any Gentle-
PorSugel ; but *hat now turned out to be the fact ? man to consider whether the increase was beyond
S., far, trom the Prince Regent having arrived at what must beexpected from the circumstances of the
Lisboa. it appeared that he never intended to re- times ? All increase of 15 per cent. upon the pub.
turn Milt; or. There was lio other case, perhaps, so lic.expenditure, in an arduous period, was not be-
o,.eir to attack, but he did not doubt that such ex- yond what might be supposed to result. The Right
isted ; for what was the conduct of his Majesty's Honourable Gentleman had contended, that since
Alinisters on this occasion? Why, in order to keep the year 1811, the system of economy had been to-
up the idea of the Prince Regent's return, they fitted tally disregarded, amid that, in 181'2 and 1813, the
out a ship at an immense expellee, but with no other expenditure had increased to an average of
object thou to give a colour to the appointment of 1,300,0001. It was, however, to the three quar-
tile Right lion. Gentleman. And why, he would ters last past that he had confined his observations,
ask, had Ministers sent General Officers abroad to and to those he was particularly called to reply.—
act in a military capacity ? 11l the course of last The total charge for three quarters of a year, to the
year there were several honourable officers, among 6th of January, 1815, for the Departments of-the
whom was Col. Ramsay, who had never attained the Lord Chamberlain, Lord Steward, Master of the
rook of General ; but Lord Cathcart was made a Horse, and • Mister of the Robes, was, he said,
Genesi', oil the Staff, and sent to act on the Con- 434,0211. 2s. 91d. Now, the Right lion. Gentle-
titiPot ; but w lint benefits had been derived from that man had not made any observations on the Lord
Bonnet!~ ? It we would venture to ask any of Steward's Department, hut had done justice to his
the great Powers, their answer would be, that they merits. The excess in the Lord Chamberlain's De-
weuel not giro ;•ikirPOCe for a hundred such Gene- pertment had been occasioned by the expenses of
iu-
rals.—[,-f was not merely the expendi- ' vesting Foreign Sovereigns with the Order of the
fuse of the Court, but its patronage also, that ought Garter, for furniture delivered at Cumberland and
to be sire ill aith jealousy ; and the account ought Cranbourti:lodges, and by an excess of bills in the
to be essmined, ill ortier that the country might Office of Works. The increase of expenditure in the
know that the Cron a had not ton much, awl t .at Depertment of the Master of the Horse was (nen-
Cirmormis a •re not too sparing. In 181 Z, •sioried by the establishment of her Royal Highness
Iteeer 01. ea; voted to his Royal Highness the rrilice the Princess Charlotte, anti other necessary charges
Hee( .it. In lel 1, 118,0001. was voted ; and for attendant on his office. The excess of expenditure
.ries of last year 100,0001.: and was already known to Parliament by an estimate
w t was the re, trim a e got ? In the last three I id ' • .'ace them, and did not require any inquisito-
q•. tars ibe call was fur 427.1001. lie begged the vial crut ray ; and surely, if 180,0001. had been ex-
it use to be assuted, that tie. people would not pended ill the eeteriainments give...on the restoration
seise •d, elide Ministers we, e calling for a renewal of peace, the House would not think it exorbitant
of the Propetty T is. till they ba is this accounted on so joyful an occasion. The excess in the meta-
fo. iletre must be some uuderstanding between sional payments had partly arisen out of progressive
Ninis'ers .d the Court, that the former would expenditure, which could be better explained by the
wet holt the ex;: n,liti.re of the latter. On the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department. He
AViodsor establishment his ;Majesty had 160,0()01. submitted whether the Civil List might not be re-
the (,?nears 68,0;)01. and th, four Princess 16,0001. lieved from obloquy, by making provision by an in.
exc its.. of eeiities. The expeediture of the head • tercedent vote,' instead of throwing expellees upon a
Stresaii!'s d-pareeent. was 70,0001. ; of the Lord tumid already appropriated. He thou:gut it could he
Chamberlain's, ; 01. :he Master of the !terse, calculated upon so fair a basis us not to exceed the
There v ere alto 58 horses for the Royal sum voted by the House; and be conceived, that a
Est one sear, 1813, Lord Witichel- new estimate might he formed as suggested by the
sea rid made a saving of 13,0001. but lie did not Right lion. Gentleman. Thinking, however, that
know %%hat was 'here in 13r 1. As to Lori St. Ile- all these benefits might be obtained without going to
lees, Ministers must net say that he was a Lord in the length proposed by the Richt llonanorable
Waitieg ire the Kireg : be might be a very merituri.: Gentleman, he should beg leave to conclude by
ohs •ersaiit of the Cress n ; ;lad if so, he should he movieg as an amendment, that the latter part of the
provided for iii some other is as. lit 1810, her Ma.. motion, which related to persons, papers, and re-
jests ail increase of 10,0001.; and the only rea- coils, should be omitted.
son that Nlt. Percevat ~signed for it wa, that it Mr. WARD declared, that the speech of the
Might provide for Let. Majesty's travelling expellees. ' Right Hem Mover remained unanswered. A very
For travellieg expellees ! Wh , her Majesty has coecidable and unnecessary expenditure had taken
58 horses fur travelt:eg ; but it 'Nee a -most produc- place, and he was perfectly convinced, that unless
live year iii some quarters. Ile maintained there the Committee then proposed should be armed with
Was NO oceasiou for it, and charges of this nature sufficient powers, no good whatever could be ex•
were a most ungrateful return to people who had peeled to result from their labours, but Ministers
made so many sacrifices for the support of rosaltv.— would come down from year to year with an increase
Dal delivering these sentiments, he was only discflarg. on the Civil List, beyond• what was provided.for by
ing t.i, duty to the country, and meant no personal Parliament. The Right Hon. Gentleman 'had al-
offence .n the Royal Family. Ile trusted, there- lotted to Cratibourn-lodge, but the real. expenditure
two, that he should receive the 'batiks of the people, . bore no proportion to the estimate. The Hon. Gen-
who veered to see the duties of a Member of Par- tlemati, litter next alluding to a part of the payments
Hewett fiith •. Ily di•charged. From sear to year which we did not distinctly hear,• begged, as there
ail ecolinitly had been set at defiance : but if the was too muelt reason to suppose that we were on the
Hoye' would exercise all the powers of ex- eye of a new war, to direct the attention of the
yienditure, 4lie Commons must lose all estimation in House to the enormous charges to which naval offi-
tire eyes of the peopl... if. they did not apply their cers were liable,. in the condemnation of prizes, and
rowers of conroul.—[fieue, hear!]—We gave that which often exceeded the proceeds due to the captors.
to the (toy at Family ankh entitled us to a return, This was taking the fair emoluments out of the hands
and they (eight not to trespass upon a generosity, of our naval officers, and putting them into the
a 1, li is universally inailifested towards them. The lintels of proctors who did not earn them. lie was in
Royal Family altogether received 9213,0001. a year, fnvniir of the nppointment of a Committee, with the
and they owed a debt to us which ought to be paid, powers proposed.
—it was * fair di.play of their accounts, in order Mr. BENNETT said, there were two ways it.
that we might lint he burthened with any expctilli. which Ministers usually met a motion of this kind:
cure that could he avoided. Ile believed his Royal —the one was to support it, and the other to seem to
11,glitiess the Prime Regent to be in the dark with agree to it, while they took care to attach same
respect to many of these'trairsections; but there was a thing to it that would deprive it of its efficacy. If
duty imposed on the King's Ministers to ixplain the powers of the Committee were so conflued, as
them to him. Ile had heard that they had taken the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed, it would be as
from the Lord Cliambeilaili's department the super• useless as former Committees had been. There were
intentlance of the public buildings, and he gave them one or two poipts, with regard to the Civil List,
credit for it, as he had dime for every thing a here %hitch he wished to touch upon. It was an extraor-
he could : but there remained behind, the interior dimity circumstance, that after all the money that
fitting up of paleces, am! he desired the Right Ilan. was paid to the Royal Family, considerably more
Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Excite- than 900,0001., yet, after all, compared with former
quer) to look at the charges fur glasses, and plate, limes, there was no Court. He was old enough to
and fitting up of rooms one day, and altering them remember when there used to be two Levees and one
the text. If that were looked after, the sums of Drawing-room a week ; now there was hardly a
Inoney to he saved %Hold be enormous. Let Mi- Levee once a fortnight, and there had been only onel
sisters give the II ouse an opportunity of thoroughly Drawitig-room tbieseeson. Notwithstanding all the i
itivestigetine the items of which the accounts were money that was paid, the public had really no
composts and great expences might be saved. He Court. There were private parties, to be sure, at
then concluded with ((((( viirg, that a Committee should Carlton-house ; but these were confined to persons
be appointed to take into ciersideration the account of certain political opinions; and he would beg the
• of the 10th of March last, relative to the Civil List, House to consider what a disappoitittnent it caused
presented to the House by the Chancellor of the Lx- to many to have themselves and their families ex,
chog oil, by the command of his Royal Ilighness the eluded from Court, except on rare occasions, on ac-
- Prince Regent : arid that such Committee should count of their political sentiments. He begged to
have power to send for persons, papers, and records. pay a word or two as to the fete in_the Park in
object, would bet to form au estimate that could bration of the peace. It had been triumphantly
be relied nn.—[!fear, hearrj stated lost Session, that 15,0001. would covet the
• The Cli A NCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER, whole of the expence. Nothing could he more false
that if the Right Hon. Gentleman had confined than this estimate, for it now turned out that the
1 iieself to the first part of his motion, it would expence was .10,0001. But What he most objected to
hale been in anticipation of what he intended was, the pernicious 'effects -with -whick it iris &at.

tended. He trusted he should never live to see such
another scene of viCestid dissipation arise to`the
in-
finite annoyance of all the middle classes of society
in the metropolis. The whole proceeding had in-
flicted a serious calamity on the morals of the peo-
ple. He must also notice the immense increase of Sir
111. Wellesley's expenditure, as Ambassador at Ma-
drid. In 1814 it was 18,0001. and had this year
risen to 37,0001. _ _ _

Mr. ROSE agreed that a sufficient case had been
made out to justify enquiry, but contended that the
Committee ought not to be armed with greater
powers than those possessed by former Committees.
Sir W. CONGREVE acknowledged that The
works in the park had exceeded the estimates ; but
he would be bound to prove that they did not ex-
ceed them by more than 3,0001. One measure of the
excess was, that though the erections were sold, they
did not bring one-third of their original cost, as was
• usual with such materials, but enly about one-fifth.
A deduction was also to be made for the bridge over
the canal, in the Park, which it was thought proper
to retain. As to the principle of the fete, it had only.''[
been following former precedents, and surely no
occasion of the.conclusion of a peace had offered of
a superior kind. With regard to the immorality•
complainelof, he was afraid there might have been
a little excess of that sort, where such multitudes of
people were drawn together.
Lord MILTON contended that the appointment of
a Committee, without the power of sending for per-
sons,
papers, and records, would be a mere dead
letter. The House would, in that case, pretend to
do what it actually did not do. The Committee
ought not only to have the vouchers before them,
but see that the different expenditures were conduct-'
et) on a principle of economy.
Mr. lIUSKISSON argued, that the appointment
of a Committee with the powers proposed was con-
trary to all former precedent, and derogatory to the
decorum with which the Crown should be Witted.—
' One reason assigned for the motion by an Honour.
able Gentleman was, 'hat there were not two levees
and one draWhig-room every week. Was the Com-
' triltee, then, to send for persons to examine why
this had not been the case? Was the Iluuse to un-
derstand
from that Honourable Gentleman, that the
Sovereign of this country and his family could not
enjoy any of the common advatit'i ges of retirement ?
No Sovereign that he ever heard of was supposed to
be placed in such a situation that he must be always
before the public eye. Were the personages of the
Royal Family to be held up as Indian Pagods, whose
temples were always open to the multitude.—[A
lough.]—An observation had been made on 50001. .
expended on hot-houses at Kensington-gardens : hut
he would ask, was the Crown to be debarred from
expenses of this kind, in which every private-gentle- -
man might indulge ? He then proceeded to defend
the conduct of Mr. Canning in accepting the embassy
to Lishou. The principle on which his salary was
regulated was, that it included the whole of the ex-
traordinary expenses attendant on the mission. lie
crushd slate, that the person left at Lisbon as Charge
d'Affaires by Sir C. Stuart, was allowed. 50001. a
' year for his necessary expenses, though not obliged
to keep up any representation. One reason why the
mission to Lisbon had been raised to the dignity of
an Embassy was, because there had long been a Por- .
tuguese Ambassador in this country. There was
also et the time a probability of the Prin-ce Regent
of Portugal returning to his European dominions,
which had been preserved by the exertions of this
country. Certain it was, that the Sovereign of Por-
tugal did state his 'intention of returning from the
and actually requested that a British squa-
dron might he sent out for his conveyance, naming
at the same time the British officer whom he wished
•tobe at the head of it. Advicel, he believed, had
• t'e .ti received in this country, that the Prince Regent
la I altered his intentions, and did not mean to re-
turn to Europe immediately ; and he knew that as •
to•in as his Right Honourable Friend, now at Lis- •
bon, was aware of this, he would tender his resig-
nation of the Are he held.—[Hear, hear ! and a
.lamgh.j—.When the combination of circumstances
;which induced him to accept of the office ceased, he
(Mr. Iluskiistin) should be much suprised if his
Right Honourable Friend did not resign it. As to
the salary, fifty years hack, the expence of the Lis-
bon mission was was 52001. a year, and at the pre-
sent rate of exchange it would require 80001. to
cover that sum. The greater part of the additional
charge on the Civil List had arisen from the extraor-
dinary expellees of last year, and after all the priva.
tions and sufferings of twenty years' war, it seemed
quite reasonable that the people should have an op-
portunity of expressing their exultation at the glo.
rious termination of the war. He contended it would
be most indecorous were the Committee to extend its
investigation into the private expenditure of the Royal
Mr. H. MARTIN supported the original motion.
He thought it was paying a bad compliment to the
Prince and the Royal Family, to suppose they could
wish to screen their expenditure from enquiry.
Mr. C. LONG opposed the appointment of a
Committee armed with such ample Dowers, as incon-
sistent with the respect due to the Sovereign. Much
had been said of the expenses of our Ambassadors ;
but from all he hail heard and seen, he was satisfied
that the ! A'mbassad'ors of none of the other great
Powers wet.' inadequately paid as the British. •
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that though, since the
settlement of the Civil List, five different Committees
had been appointed to examine into the excess of its
expenditure, yet the inadequacy of their powers had
been the occasion why that excess-had not been kept
down, but'lfad gone on increasing to its present ex.'
orbitant amount. The settlement of the Civil List
was a sort of compact between the Crown and the
People; and in the times in which we lived, it was
essential to the popularity of the Crown, that its
expenditure should be controlled and kept within
due bounds.

Lord CASTLEREAGH contended, that the ne-
cessity of appointing a Committee with such poweri
had not been made out. It was quite unprecedented
to approach the Crown hi such an inquisitorial man-
ner. The HMI. Gentleman who spoke last hod ar-
gued as to the settlement of the Civil List unfairly.
The acteinsinte of that income on the part of the
Crown was accompanied with a surfender for the
benefit of thepeople, of an estate which the Crown
had held from time
.irearemorial; ao estate, also,