The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-04-18 00:00:00

wit lout tiair.Or coirdaifteitiwp—erU-ijeviti
took office on a secret undeiatanSing* to abandon, parti-
ally or altogether, any pid of his Wott . pripc4plea—•
whose mouth, heart and condact—so fir 'Si conduct can.
be e • real bides Of the heart—had beea always in'
unison upon this questioe. " I would," coml.
toted Mr. Brougham, " his eiample had head
followed upon my side of this question, and thew,
1 should not have to dwell upon its fortune with;
the despair which fills my mind at this tunment.
But, whatever the condect of the. Right Hon. Attorney-
*General for Ireland might have been, if he had deviated
from his former professions; ant he (Mr. Li.) did not say
that be had, let the Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign
Affaits (Mr. Canning) have come for Ward at the most
critical moment for this question, and for his own cha-,
mete, when the question ems, whether he should go to
ladle into honourable exile, or take office, end not sub-
'wit to his sentence of tranaportation, Lat be condemned
;,t hard labour in his own country-.(a
a;oonted to. the tonneau of divided•Couarils, sitting Milt!
his eneuties, pitied by li;s friends, his heills chained; andi
tied doses is all those fines of operation,* which tits aerial
plohes•anal sentinsents• waild i 'duce hint to adopt ;t
kt std take( that rerical moment when his fate depentl4ll
on Lord Chancellor Eldon, and his sentiments oti
Catholic Claims • if or that criticat impotent, he, Who bad .
raid last niolity'tlist• he would not truckle to the Ment-
ion, fee New Hiram ((fiord Folkestone), should have ett-
'Whited the most Itialediblestilitutm of monstrous truck-
ling. foe the purposorelikathine oilier, that was ever
furnished in:thitaistiav et`politiial tergiversation.
Mr. Secretary CANNIN4I-1 rise to sty that this is
,•••• • • , • r •r • •
• A solemn silence pervaded **How. Mr. Bronghans '
appeared to us to be in this art of ratiriog from die
Holm, when •
Toe iPE AKER. espiewod his risyrst, in •iow timer
that an Hon. Member, holding ',the ran yid sistionof the
Right Hon. Secretary, should hateeii.fai ((irritated. the
reapeet whip, It was d...e to the dinnitytif Bat' station, ood
of the house.
Mr. Secretary CANNING—For the offence of which 11
have been guilty towards the House, I am ready to apoto-
gist, bat sothing—no consideration on earth shall [educe
sue to mired what I have said.
The SPEAKER said, that under circumstances of so
much difficulty, as lie felt bititoelf in upon tole ()erasion,
he would ask the if ouse.whether it would not support
hint. He would therefore, under the protection of the
House whether it would not support him. He would, there-
tote,ifider the protection of the House, ask the. Right
honourable Gentleman whether lie was ready to Segel the
expressions, which he assured him were contrary to that
order I%y which the ilebotesof the House ought to ISO. Teo
galeted
Mr. Secretary*CANNlNG said that be was estertipelt
sorry to incur the displeasure of the House, bat lw.Colild,
not retract an expres'ion, of the force of which be felt
ceneiction in bin own mind.
-31 r. USOUtiIIAM was about to rise, but amid lona
cries of chair, CluSr e."
The SPEAKkIt again addressed them. He hopes!. he
was not g wk.)* epee any point of the order of the House,
bet lie was most *axioms to coil its emirs is attention to
. - • • Allis breaeh Of its iegulatiuns—a breach which he was
not disposed to confider not as euverticial.
The CIIANCELLO4 of the EXCHEQUER "aid lie
Loped that he was not digressing.from the course which
one Member or one Geotlemonsnight adopt towards ano-
slier, but he would ask the MAL and Learned Gentleinao
• what it was that, he had etat,ti. The lion.Geutletimo at
a'l times expressed Meisel* with much force and elo-
teem*, but sonietimesOlgis With' Warmth, and lie utast
s ty if the expressionsnew used by the Hon. and footled
Gentleman were applied to him, considering them, as he
slid, to contain one of the eevereit reproaches against the
person it character of his night floe. Friend, and not
ueninst his •pnbllc conduct, whichlhe lion. (lentlemosi
a right to scrutinize, be would not hive known in
what regular manner he would have given vent to his
feelings. lie was quite cure that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman would be doing nothing inconsistent with his
. character sea Member of-that House, to retract those of-
fensive expressions. He was the more inclined to make
this swiftest, as he was sure the Hon. and Learned Gen-.
-tleman could not have intended any personal offence.
lie
could only say that sometimes there bad been a vehe-
mence of language used in that House, which often con-
' veyed offence, contrary, he was sure, to the inclination of
the person who had wed it.
The SPEAKER acid that he was now confirmed in
the propriety of calling upon the House to assist hisjudg-
- tneut in the difficulty in which he was placed; for he now
perceived that some of the fault was attributable to him.
—(Cries of "No, no.") He stated this as matter of con-
gratulation to the House and himself. It now appeared
that the language which called forth the disorderly
expression. was in itself such as imposed upon him the
duty of at once interfering. lie declared he would have
interfered if he felt with the Right Honourable Gentle-
n.an who had just sat down, that the Honourable and
Learned Geotlemm's language was such as lie described
11. He now, therefore, addressed himself to the Hon. I
and Learned Gentleman, and trusted that he woallil not
hesitate in answering the call in the manner that tee I
clreuinstanceo of the case pointed out. •
Mr. BROUGHAM rose in obedience to a general call,
but
Mr. TIERNEY rose to order. lie apprehended that
the regular course would have been to have moved that
lain Hon. Friend's words should be taken down. The
House would see that there was an end of every thing
like regular debate, if a Member were to be met in the
middle of a et ntence with an interruption so emphatic as
that pronounced by the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(llear.)
He thought that the regular course on this occasion
made it necessary that they would, in the first instance,
dispose of the Right Hon. Gentleman's violation of order.
• To let his words stand uncoutradicted, and call on his
Learned Friend for an explanation, he believed was con-
trary to the practice of the Hoes,. He did not see what
objection on any ground the Right Hon. Gentleman could
Lave to withdraw the expression substantially.
• The SPE:AEI; said, that though the offensive words
which hnd been made use of by the Right Honourable
G-ntletnan were recalled, still the sentiments of the
• Learoyd Gentleman had not been retracted, anti these
were considered not as official but as personal. The in-
tention of lils interfering was to have it said that the
words were official and not personal. If lie (the Speaker)
had adverted to this at the time, he would have felt it his
duty to call the Right Honourable Gemleman to order,
and now lie hoped that the Right Honourable Gentle-
man would recal the offensive words of which he had
mode use.
Mr. Secretary CANNING, after having maturely re-
flected on the words which he hail used, felt himself
• • bouml, whatever censure the House might pass upon hint,
to declare that he could not recal or vary a single word
that It made use of.
Lord A. HAMILTON said, that hail the tone and
*l4nrusee of his Hon. Friend been ever so objectionable,
the rules 11011 proctice of the House prescribed a course
very different front that which was adopted on this occa-
sion. Ile held it to he tl.e duty of the Chair to mark out
the first violator of order, and when he had given as;
tisfaction to the House, then to require an explanation
from the preceding person who had committed a breach
of order. He, therotore, not without some pain, felt
it imoutbent on him to call on the Chair, to declare
who was the first violator of order, for the purpose of
reqiiiring that he should in the first plate retract his ex-
larsqj .og.
Mr. !MAKES rose with pain to speak on this subject.

a --~.

'flue* thought the Noble Cord in a mistake In 144143
thelpeater aid not riPf upon these who tOd-ifou!
a breach of order fee an ezplansitior ;" for theBpeaklo
,called. He Phi 0;) wise sorry that the itlest•Herkiddlitilfr`
man had no! made that explanation, widen he cpuld, lti
doneavike perfect honour. The Right Hon. Gene Mt tt-
Isere said that he was sorry for the words' of which We*
made use. If the matter was am arresters'. it mieht leedkial
consequences of the most unpleasant nature, and beeps.-
the were so, he moved that both the Gentlemenehoilld'hei
sadder into.eastody. He *al induced to take tbie dcmirle
iserttryie it was that which was usual. It alight Isis that
one or the other was wrong ; sod' to dad out wish was
west& hes matter of investlgathui. tint till ;tido eilete
eided, he should move that both be taken into custody I.
he credal mot conceive that there could be any other tagtrl
The Honourable Ckintleman cone:laded by moving the% r.
Seereterycanning and-Mr. Brouglnun be taken into eastody.i
Mr. SergeantONDLOW seconded the motion. . • r
Mr. WYNN concurred In the sentiments of the
Uop
dent.; hat could noreoncur in the motion which he hid'
Itableltted td the House. Rut the House ought to recollect,,
,mat there had been u h decision on the metier ; and he know,
of no preeedeet which would warrant the taking of Hop.
Gents. into custody, till the House had come to some dee.-
lion on this.breach of order that had berm eemelitted: It
was, however, the date of the House to see that the Hoe.
Gents. did not retire till they had given a pledge neon their
honour as gentlereen, that the matter should'go no farther.—
He hoped that the lion. and Letirned Gent: would see the
propriety co( offeriog voiontarily such aq „ex plenationos
would avert any coneegummes ; and he (td,r. Wypn) would
beg of bins to do so--16 give an eaplanatiMi.tuMe. Brougham
—"Not one weird."l He would beg it ie 'Mout. The
House would osk-it tread would take mire thatmithing which
passed within it slimald be followed by any consequences
without. lie felt a here that the matter would go no further.
Mr. ABFAIGIUMBY tlionglit that the question
which the House battle consider was whether *breach
of order had been eninnsitted ; and Ibis being ascertained, I,
the next inquiry was whether a'Proper apology had been
made. With regard to the question that there bad been
e breach of order, he thought it was admitted ; and Ihis
bring the case,. he thought the House would not do its
duty. if it did not support its own order. 'The charge I
of falsehood had been brought against his Honourable
and Learned Friend by the Right Honourable Gentle-
man, and that was a 'breech of order there could be
Gentle-
no doubt. Ile was of opinion that the Hciuse should
take care that no further proceedinx should take place;
and they would beat do tbieby'a4certaining who had
been the first to offend, and recommending to bins to be
the first to explain.
Mr. WILMOT said that bis attention baring been in
a particular manner directed to the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman's speech, at the snotnent of the in-
terruption, he tboughtthat it would he proper for hint
to state the iiiipre•aton predigest on his 'mud by the lan-
gnage of the Honourable Gentleman. He oweed that
his opinion was, ;hat the House was in a situation to
callupon the Honourable and Learned Gentleman for an
explanation in the lint instance. not perhaps according
to technical rules, but f eubstantially on the me-
rits. His impression, he could declare. anteriorly to the
iitterrnption, was, that the remarks of the Hon. Gentle-
man were most personal. It was for the House to declare
who was the first offender.
Sir F. I.WILDB*I"f said, that be could not account for
the impression produced on other Gentlemen's minds by
the language of -his Hon. Friend.. No doubt it must lie
.considered as more or less irritating, according to the
feelings of those who heard It ; but if the Hon. Gentle-
man who jest sat down was so strongly linpresied with
fie disorderly character of the Hop, and Learned Gentle-
men's language, the question naturally suggested itself
why he did nut interpose himself. Let the House look
at the situation of the case. tie was of opinion that bis
HMI, and Learned Friend had out exceeded that latitude
of retnat k which wag the right of every man in speaking
of the coliduct of a public functionary, and therefore he
we, not acting in violation oethe order of the House.—
lie Right Hon, Gent. on the contrary, as it was univer-
sally admitted, bad used laitguage Which was grossly. -
dieorderly. Even if the Hon. and. Learned Gentleman
had expressed himself its a manner that was manifestly
couttary to order, still nothing could be more disorderly
and certainly nothing more inconvenient in practice, than
that a Member, instead of waiting until the regular op-
portunity arrived when he might address the House,
should interrupt another in the course of his speech.—
(hear.) If the language of his Learned Friend struck
the Hon. Gentleman opposite as disorderly, his duty was
to interpose and catuic the words to he takes down. But
at present it was impossible to state with accuracy what
that language was, or how what was said might have
been affected by what might have been said by 'his lion.
Friend was stopped before the completion of his sentence.
The saddle should he placed upon the right horse. The
Chair and the House had sufficiently expressed their
sense, and nothing, in his opinion, but resisting obsti-
nacy, where there 4V3, no ground for perseverance, could
keep back the sati-fectory explanation for which the
House was so impatient.
Sir R. WILSON thought the question involved in a mis-
take. Ile certainly did think that the words of the Ho-
nourable and Learned Geneetuan were addressed to the
Right Honournble Gentleman as Governor of India, and as
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and not by any means in his
private and personal character. Under this impression, he
thought that if they would consider this, the path was
open and clear to a mutual explanationthis he
thought that the Right Honourable Secretary should take
the lead.
Mr. CANNING said, if he understood the lion. Gentle-
man rightly, he would here no objection to give his cordial
acceptance to the mode po nted out by him. With respect
to the House, it was sale mat he had been guilty of a breach
of its prams, and he was ready to submit to any censure
which such a breach deserved. Further, according to the
suggestion of the lion. Gentleman, he was willing to say
that he understood the Honourable and (monied Gentleman
to apply an imputation which he certainly did take to be
personal. The imputation was that of unbecoming submis-
sion on his (Mr. C.'s) part to a high individual, for the
sake of office—an imputation, as he conceived, not on his
official, but on his personal character. If the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman disavowed that he had used the ex-
pression in such a sense, he (Mr. Canning) was willing to
say that he was mistaken in the sense in which he had un-
derstood it. and would retract; but if not, he would re-
tract nothing.
The SPEAKER. wished to state to the House precisely
how it struck him the question then before the House stood.
There were two distinct considerations. The first was for a
breach of the Order of the House, which the Right Lion.
Gent. had himself admitted, and for which the House would,
perhaps, consider a satisfactory explanation and apology
had been made. The next considention aroseout of the appre-
hension of consequences which it became the duty of that
House to prevent. If those consequences were plain, sim-
ple, and indisputable, it was its duty to take steps for the
purpose of sewing the pieties. If, on the other hand, there
was n possibility, and he would hope a probability, that the
misunderstanding could be satisfactorily explained, then
there could exist no dielculty asto the motion that had been
made. The Itialit Hon. Secretary had in the most ungrati-
fied manner expressed his reeret the aCknowledged vio-
lation of the orders of that Home. As to *e personal lin-
putations which the Right Honourable Secretary supposed
to he made in the language of the Honourable and L-arned
tionr.._the Hove would be stow to Attribute effects to words
wail they 'snivel the sanction of bite who used them.—
(rear. hear.)
tlr. BKOIAHASII observed, that if lie were to rottsult
his owls feelings. he should hare wished before 'he en-
tere4 en any explanation, tp pas on to the remainder of
the seisteace in which he bad been interrupted by tbe,
Right Hun. Gentleman (lie. (fanning). Before he mode
a farther observation, battened it to be reMeinhered that
e call fog explanation hod eat proceeded (rout bioi
e sumition then b..feire *the House, that the Itiklit
'Hits. tiOrleman. who bail been stored be the highest au-,
therity in that House as basil been ;silty of a violation

CEO llT*fgi-

1 •

f ITi:1 •-"Ii--;- -- - '----ria 1-4,41
'lt n}[ em •TP.IT ~1909741erl / ro .
#lO
en emus w o e,Vio ashen into cult. y,,
fhilthe(Mi:llly lirriik '• IA 'twist charged Mal i
lertlish•ofitslati sholskl'irisi. Undergo a siinflar:petble 1
.86entl—(A WOO I. 4411ars boat.)—He opposed ibis:final
iFell as the last part of that p.opsksition. ..Ht ebaabl mi"
,49._assent to its passini !avow of censure, or the, cows
threfitto custodk, in co sequelseer: of the ' langeage that
birdlien addressed to hies (Hear.) With respect to the
Kele ace in which he bad lona interrupteil,he ye ry much re-
petted. he spoke unaffectedly. that he was wholly. Incas
pisge of repeating the Words that he
.load made use 0f...
11e. recollected tee mionihß ivell, `find in the full recol-
lection of that nietiting,•be would not take upon blamelf
..e• say: whether he • had slot • used words that partielpdted
-Whet Ilitle at a politicsllo4 personal APPlicaon- :HO
twap,por.pitbm Ft efolracter of expression as to
preptsely legriounate 'boundaries between these two
Niel's:. e mesiilq liaritiir; a bis langeige be .wool 4
state, and leave toltivi'Hbuisii46 sludge of its.'interprotal
lion. :fierstrell recollected; tint he had coed the wordd
" poliSical tergiversation': It was undoubtedly .a wont
explosion, but it stas one which had been over and °TA
p
Slit lined in die divas:Anti. of that Mousse; he bad cer-
tainly Pk stroeirli on the subject on which be had been
'aaihessing thitsi, and -felt` also as he felt now, thtt
there never was an occasion on which that langnage was
mere acenratelyalpplied. Hat these strong feelings were
excited wholly bi4a, refereore.to the public awd political
life of the Hight Plonorrable Gentlertiaui. buttes to his'
tivate capacity, good lion! be (11,. Brouzbetts) 1
.kpfef nothing ibat slid nut redousid to that Hight Hon.
Ilentlemen's liontiar.—(Hear, heir 1..)-11s bad little I
'hisowledge.of his private life, and that little accidentally:
It was in' that passage 'of his tire'heretdfete, when he
agreed With 'Kim on Vie 'reef +MAUI' of she Catholics ,
of Ireland that lie (Mr. Brongliass) cause into that per- I
Donal intercourse. it was not endosboolly for party-+I
nut for fisctioue--not fur personal pommies that he had I
adverted to the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—'
It was becanss he ronsidere.l that, from the very MO-'
went that lie had made a declaration, in his speech at
Literpool, in which he considered the cause of the Cattle)-
, lies hopeless, and that he trusted ha should not see, if
agitated again, that brfelt called upon to apply the lan
garage that he toed. At that ipantent the Right Hon.
Goodman was preparing for his departure to India. It
was a matter of perfect notoriety, that the Lord Chan-
cellor of England was in direct hostility, not alone to the
question or the Catholics, but to the Night Honourable
Gentleman himself. When, therefore, lie rooneeted that
declaration at Liverpool with that hostility, and the sub-
sequent appointment of that Right Honourable Gentle-
man to the office be now held, lie did form the opinion
that he had that night (impressed as tq his change of
sentiment. He had no right to judge of the motives of
any. wan ; but when he coupled that change of
sentiment with the outward and, visible conduct—when
he sate him at the head of Foreign Affairs, and what was
unconstitutionally called the Manager of that House, he
slid deeply deplore the change that had taken place; but
why ? not for party purposes. still less for personal ;
(mar, hear!)—buthecause he felt that such conduct-was
at once a death-blow to the hopes of the Catholics. Ile
should have willingly said more, hut for an expression
that not once but twice had fallen from the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman. His mouths was consequently
closed, because the disorderly expression was reoe,ved
and repeated.
Mr. PLUNKETT said a few words across the Table,
which were not heard in the Gallery.
Mr. Secretary PEEL put it to the House, whether it was
not tke mincer, conviction of every man In that !Buse that
a most satisfactory explanation was given, calculated to
allay any unpleasant feeling that might have existed Jau-
tweett his Right Honourable Frient and the Honourable
and Learned rientlemaa Knees, beat...* With respect to the
circumstances out of which the misunderstanding arose, he
would say that tne facts must lia.e been misrepresented to
' the Hovicierablesui Learsest Genti.man ; for, if there was
a maa less likely to truckle for office by unbecoming sub-
missions t 3 any man, It was his Right Honourable Friend
(hear, hear!). After the explanation that had been mutually
given, hedid not see the necessity for continuing the motion.
Mr. DA NKF.fd met the suggestion, by mot willingly with-
drawing his motion (hear!).
Mr. BROUGHASI resumed the previous discussion,
and urged the propriety,of not turning their backs on
the Catholics. The insincerity of former advocates,
from whatever motives proceeding, could be no excuse
for those who had so zealously and perseveringly sup-
ported that question.' Let these friends of that great
cause not abandon their duty. Though frequently de-
feated before, they had still the manliness to return to the
charge. Let them recollect the history of the Slave
Trade Abolition. Notwithstanding the hollow support
of Mr. Pitt. in spite of the repeated defeat., the question
was ultimately and triumphantly carried under the Ad-
ministration of an united Cabinet.—(flear.)—lt was true,
that it was not, as Mr. Fox stated, a Cabinet measure;
but, to use the words of that great mao, •it was consider-
ed " as gond as a Cabinet measure, and better than a
great many Cabinet questions." The result of persever-
ance upon that question ought to animate the friends of
the Catholics to renewed effitrts. The opposition to that
signal question was successfully protracted, but it made
its ultimate triumph. The friends of abolition saw the
wreck of the slave ship go down, with an opposition of
some paltry sixteen clinging to the shrouds; amongst
whom was the predecessor of the Right Honourable
Gentleman (the Marquess of Londonderry), on whose ,
unfortunate memory lie should make no further com-
ment.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME said that the great question now was,
whether the people of Ireland were to be governed as
they ought, or whether the saute system of inireanage-
meat shall still be saffered to continue. Though lie was
no friend to secession, thought it was no slight occasion
which would make him leave the House, vet he would
agree with the proposition of the Hots. Baronet, It was
a fixed principle with him stover to desert Isis post; but
no man ought to be a party to a system of delusion.—
'time Honourable Member here adverted to the speeches
of several Members on the Catholic question, to prove
their inconsittenry by accepting office. The conduct of
Government was insincere to Ireland; it was a system
of delusion, and showed that people they had nothing to
expect from the present Ministers. Ministers were re-
sponsible for all the blood which would flow in conse-
quence of such treatment. Fur his part, he certainly
would no longer be the dupe of those who so -often
changed their opinions. ..
Mr. R. MARTIN (of Galway) said that his Right lion.
Friend. the Attorney-Generil, was placed' in an awkward
situation: 'Would he take swim himself the awful responsi-
bility of losing Ova question, when many of the Gentlemen at
Smother side threatened to withdraw, If it was agitated.—
'Plinio Hon. GentlemsM, who: while they acknow.edged the
vitality of this question to Ireland, still withdrew, reminded
kite of a man who, when challenged tolight a dual, shot
himself, and left a paper, in which he stated, as an ex-
'euse, that he shot hiaiself, becasise; if he did not, his adver-
eery might.
Mr.S. RICE said, that although hes:night not certainly to
question the conduct of ilia lion. Friend (Mr. Haler), who
always took up the interests of lteland with so much cordial
emmestiums, yet he vras unwilling that an intputatiun should
be Mailed to that aide of the House of haying deserted the
Catholic question. He was resolved to remain in hicPlace
tb tholes:, small as might be the minority of his side. The
Hon. Member concluded some further observations, by stat-
ist; that every (oilier ariumioilii favour of the question
might now be urged with ten-fold force.
Sir JOHN 'NEWPORT followed briefly on the same
,side, god observed that hitherto the question had al•
ways gqined visited by .repeated discussion. if titer
Om ime a tube ,when the 44 interests of Ireland
• -