The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-01-22 00:00:00

sTlatsivlAN:

aree,,nt, and notwithstanding the immense in- solitary friendship, and for purposes the most sor-
crease thus made to the income of. the Crown, I did and the most atrocious, hasten a rupture, and
it would appear that the increase of the debt , sweep into this fund the spoils of American com-
wpS still more rapid and of still greater amount. merce.—[Hear, hear, hear !]—He desiredshe House
—[!tear, hear !]—Parliameot had already sere- to consider also, that this most fatal act, this last
sal times discharged the arrears of the Civil List achievement of political profligacy, might be defend-
debt, and in the year 1802 voted the enormous ed as strictly regular and legal ; Justified by the laws
sum of 900,0001• for this purpose. The whole of and constitution of the realm, and not even requiring
the sums voted at different periods amounted terhe- that solemn mockery of responsibility, a Bill of In-
tween three and four millions. Since the year 1804 ' demnity.—[H ar, hear !] —lie was far from in-
the debt had gone on accumulating at the rate of sinuating that such an event was likely to happen, it
123,0001. per annum. This the Chancellor of the was sufficient for him and for Parliament to know,
Exchequer had lately stated, and informed the House that it had once happened.—[Hear, hear !]—The
that this excess of expenditure had been paid off— , Honourable and Learned Member concluded a per-
that is, that an actual deficit of an enormous amount, spicuous and eloquent speech, which occupied two
incurred notwithstanding the unexhausted liberality hours and a half in the delivery, by apoligizing for the
of Parliament, had been supplied without the aid of time he had taken up, and observing, that at a time
Parliament, in a manner unknown to Parliament. , when a new arrangement was about to be settled with
Thus, to the amazement of the country—[Hear, the Executive, he thought the subject of much too
hear !]—he would say to its well-founded amazement, great importance to be neglected by a House of Com-
a sum of 760,0001. taken from a fund over which mona, which had the right, a right which it was bound
Parliament had no coutroul, had been set aside for to exercise, of carrying into effect and practice those
the simple payment of tradesmen's bills.—[U: ar, limitations, and that coutroul, that could alotte make
hear !] It was not his wish to utter any thing dis.. an English King in fact what he is in theory—a li-
respectful or invidious; but when he considered that , inked Monarch.
the Civil List had been always thus encumbered, he Mr. BROUGHAM then moved some Resolutions,
recollected too that in the year 1799 his Majesty had which were in substance as follows :
made large_purchases of lands, and ite Act was pass. That the potsemioa by the Crown of the disposal awn large a
ed reciting in the Preamble that these purchases had sum of money as that produced by the Droits of the Admiralty,
beets made with the„haviugs out of the Privy pu*auci without any counsel over theta by Parliament, is 'highly
eim rtationat, (Miriam te our Morties, and dokaweraidaiall
other funds, and professing to he for the purpose of
removing certain doubts as to the legality of these .wbvenave of, the Privileges of Parliaalent TIM
. went on to mate the amount and application of these eel •
purchases. The object of the Bill really,was to alter ' proposed that a committee be immediately appointed h coast-
the law, which, in the reign of Queen Anne, had been ; der of the hest means of withdrawing the Drafts of the Admi.:
deemed necessary by the Legislature, which took i rsity from the management of the Craven, and rendering them
from the Crown the power of alienating lauds for I applicable to theexigeocies of the state, at the sight of Pasha-
ally period beyond 33 years. The new Act went I mew.
evidently to favour and protect the accumulation of I Mr. BRAND seconded the motion, and stated,
private property iu the Crown. The Attorney-Ge- that after the -convincing speech of his Hon. and
neral knew, as well as himself, that by the antient Learned Friend, he did not feel it necessary to enter
law of the country all lands whatever are held by the at much length into the discussions. He agreed fully
reigning King solely fare carnal?, and he felt him- in all the positions which had been laid down; and
self warranted in assuming, that when Parliament thought he should not be fulfilling his duty if he voted
first enacted the provision for his present Majesty, it a single pound, until all due information had been
was not their intention that that law should be altered afforded, both as to the great increase of the expene
or perverted from its original objects. The next item tlitnre of the Crown, and the intended application of
that appeared of grants from the Admiralty Droits, additional sums. The Hon. Member then adverted
was a sum of 110,0001. and a subsequent one of to a sum of 150,0001. now in the hands of the
,25,0001. paid to the Princes. But did he know so Crown, which, we understood him to say, had toot
little as to be ignorant that the Crown of England yet been accounted for. Besides this 150,0001.
was under uo necessity for resorting to means like there were a variety of other sums, which would
these for its support? No! he spoke. as the advo- shortly fall in, arising from the Danish ships ;
cite of the Crown, as one who wished to see it pos- from the Scotch Civil List, though, indeed, it
sessed of a revenue worthy of a British Prince to was already heavily burdened ; and from the
receive, and of the British people to bestow—a re. Four and a Half per Cent. Fund,amounting,in all, to
venue as useful and advantageous to the subject as to upwards of 200,0001. which, in his mind, ought to be
the Crown. View, hear .1] lie would wish to see accounted for, before a single expence of additional
the dignity of the Sovereign upheld by a fixed and burden was imposed upon the people. He was,
certain, but an ample stipend ; not enjoying a re- therefore, decidedly of opinion, that a Committee
venue *which sometimes placed him in the light of a ought to beappointed to see how far these funds
land jobber, or the ammeter of a buccaneer.— could be properly applied to the exigencies of the
[Hear, hear!] be aid not greatly err, this State, instead of being allowed to remxiu at the dis-
was the proper doctrine of Parliament—the true I posal of the Crows without the knowledge of Par-
!mow of the • Constitution. [Mari, hear .I], Bement. This wait a subject well worthy of attention,
It would be endless to go through all the items ; het ,at a moment Arsilhel. litswe was called4gi to _make
there was one grant of 21,0001. which kid been an additiOn to the Civil Lht.
before animadverted on, made to an Officer, a The Question being put from the Chair,
Member of that House, to reimburse him for private Mr. COURTNEY rose and addressed the House,
losses. There was another to a Clergyman, named this being his maiden speech. He confessed that he
Danvers, to the amount of 70001. for giving informs- rose under great difficulty and embarrassment, after
tion relative to illegal captors. Another grant ap. the eloquent Gentleman who had introduced this sub. •
peered of 7001. to an Officer, as an indemnification ject to the consideration of the House. He should
for having been illegally prosecuted. But if the law not attempt to follow him, however, through the
were inadequate to remedy such grievances, was legal arguments that Honourable and Learned Gen-
there no other mode by which the object might be tleman had adduced. All the statutes and autho-
accomplished, but to place an enormous fund,—a rities, indeed, to which he had referred, were very
fund of which Parlioment had no account, at the ancient ; and it was not unfair to suppose that the
disposal of the Minister of the Crown ? The proper right now exercised by the Crown was not so utterly
and only constitutional course was unquestionably, illegal as the Learned Gentleman would represent it,
to apply to Parliament; and if the case was a case of . when it had prevailed for such a number of years,
hardship, a case placed beyond the reaching justice during which there were in that House men of great
of the law, it was by Parliament that the evil ought knowledge in the law, of the greatest acuteness, and
to be redresssed. Had the officer so indemnified who, it was known, were well inclined to check
been differently situated, if instead of being posses- ; every encroachment on the part of the Crown. The
set of some influence with Ministers, lie had been a lion. and Learned Gentleman's arguments, how-
main friendless and unconnected, was it probable that , ever, did not go so much to shew that the right of
lie would have ever tasted the benefits of Ministerial • the Crown to the Droits of the Admiralty was illegal,
bounty ? [Hew, hear!] Here was another proof as that it was unreasonable. The principle that it
that the existence of such a fund was prejudicial at was necessary for this country to have a stipendiary
once, directly and indirectly, and furnished a fresh King, one dependant on Parliament, he wasnot dis-
argument for its immediate abolition. The follow- I posed td contest ; but he could not agree that this I
lug item that occurred to him was, the expences paid should extend to the expellees of the King's family,
to captors whose prizes had not been condemn- which must be supposed to increase iu a scale equal,
ed, and who had been adjuged themselves to pay . If not greater, than the expences of any other family
ores. One of these grants was to the amount in the rouurry. At the time of Charles the Second,
of 3a,oool.—another 40001.—but he wished to ' from which period the Honourable and Learned ,
know what better means existed for the pur- I Gentleman said the Civil List had been grow* up, I
Pose of dt !erring cruisers from wanton or illegal the King had a duty of ltd. per posed, ad oderem,
captuies than the liability to be condemned in on all goods imported. If those who had to take
meet of costs—[Mr. Rose here cried hear 1)--tt care of the revenue of the Crown had leallied MUs
he understood the meaning of that cheer, his doctrine continuing at this rate, all appeals to the ribßc on
'vas not acceptable, yet it did not appearao him very this subject would have been removed. The Mon.
respectful to the Courts to imagine that they would and Learned Gentleman bad laid great sten, em the
adjudge payment of costs where it was cruel or un- abuses arising from the possession of such I
Tight,
just
to do so. But admitting this, his former obser- but he (Mr. Courtney) was convinced they- were sot'
ration was equally applicable. It was to Parliament such as the Honourable and Learned Gewthman I
Officers se situated should be instructed to resort, stated them to be. As te Copeekagen, there wire no-.
and to derive the necessary assistance and relief.— Droits, anti as to the Spanish captures, tist7 were
The fund would be found, the more it was considered, given to indemnify the Spanish merchants. The Hon.
to be the more pernicious iu its tendencies, the more and Learned Gentleman had been able to allude only
pregnant with abuse- in every shape, and at every to one ease, which seemed at all like a job, and it
lie conjured the House earnestly to reflect, , had already been discussed and decided on in that
est while the fund was at its present enormous House. As to the other exPelices alluded to by the
sonmet, it should be the unhappy fate of an Eng- . Honourable and Learned Gentleman as having been
Monarch to be guided by an adviser, little iris- I paid out of this fund, he had not stated that they had
blued with the principles or analogies of the English been granted from any undue favour, or improper
Lossreution, ill acquainted with the feelings and ; motive. Of secret jobs, he (Mr. Courtney) saw no
character. of Englishmen—an adviser who had just evidence—on the contrary, it appeared that the Ho-
talent enough to perceive that boldness might too neural& and Learned Gentleman had come to the
often supply the place of talent—a man blind front knowledge of them all. He again stated that he did
attachment to his master, or made deeperato.by- his not undervalue the importance of making the King
necessities; if to the curse of this country and of depeudant on Parliament ; but, as far as the mainte-
such a Monarch, all this should come to pass, were nance of his own person, as it were, or of his eats-
not the consequences that appeared in frightful array blishment, was concerned, he thought it more the
"the most appalling nature? How easily might it independence of Parliament itself, that in this re-
hot then happen, that a King, as in the instance of spect the Crown should be independent also. If ap-
Lord Shaftesbury, impelled by the counsels of rash- plications for assistance for the King's f'
less, and surrounded by all the temptations of became too frequent, he was afraid
Power, should be led not
ld merely to destroy the best itself might he endangered by its
1" htereSlS,
eut
country to wound incurably the honour of the court to the Crown. If any. appapps!
We had at present yet left, he wou not made to that House to pay the debts
ay a single ally, but one remaining faiend, and• while any part of this fund was concealed,
Sovereign like
was America. How .n,attlaallp might a shpald esteem a good ground of
like the one he had fancied be induced by not being the case, however, he tt
latch a •
Munster If he had deiscribedi to violate this footless-Walled for and ollneallasarts

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, his Ii ..
and Learned Friend had properly divided the sub.)
into two heads :—First, whether the right to tilt
Droits of the Admiralty was in the Crown ? And,
secondly, supposing the Crown to have the right
I vested in it, whether it was proper that it shout&
Ibe so left ? His Honourable and Learned Friend
admitted, that till the time of the Revolution,
the revenue was not branched out into separate
services, but formed one joint and common mass ;
I all being at the disposal of the Crown, and
stated to be the property of the Crown. From the
' period of the revolution it had become the practice
! to separate the particular branches, and to distinguish
1 what was for the service of the public from what was
more peculiarly to belong to his Majesty. At the
period of the settlement of the Throne upon his pre-
; sent Majesty, the Admiralty Droits were secured to
, him, and in the first year of his reign there was a sum
of 800,0001. a year settled upon him for lido, and this
Iwas taken from the Aggregate Fund, and formed
into a separate fund for this special purpose, he still
retaining the Droits of the Admiralty and other pH-
!
1 vate revenues belonging to him. The question then
was, if there was any thing in these Civil List Acts,
1 which infringed his rights? On the contrary, it
I would be found that not a single mention was made
•of the Droits of the Admiralty, but the revenues
thrown into the Aggregate Fund were those which
stood settled on his late Majesty. On referring to
tlitrart -Act of George the Second, from that to the
let of George the First, from that again to the first
of Queen Anne, and from it again to the Act of
William and Mary, it will be found that, in no one
1 of these, to alt of which, in their order, the Act of
George the Third had reference, was there any
mention of the Droits of the Admiralty ; of which,
therefore, it could not have been in the contem-
plation of the Legislature to deprive his present
Majesty. Referring to these Acts, therefore,
Mid seeing that neither expressly, nor by implication,
I were the Droits of the Admiralty looked to,
he could come oely to this conclusion, that they re-
mained with his Majesty, to whom they had once be-
longed. Then the simple question remained, whe-
ther this, which was in his Majesty, should be taken
from him ? This, he submitted, could not be done,
as It was no part of the consideration for the eight
hundred thousand pounds, unless gross misapplica-
tion could be shewn, which had not been even al-
leged. If his Honourable and Learned' Friend had
,hewn that or any other corruption in the administra-
tiott of this, that might be some ground for taking it
away. But, he asked, could it be held that Parliament
sionld interfere, because, by possibility, some abuse
night occur ?—There was no part of the revenue
which was not subject to abuse, and the
gent would justify the taking away -
d the whole of it.
' Mr. GIDDY did not intend to hiv

.detent perirtis of our hisf-ry as tc the distribil-
•:(s or, the Droita, they were rather disputes
t'veen the King and the captors, or the Lord llig
Admiral And the captor, than between the King an
" the pal; sic. He could not help thinking that his
Learned Friend had been a little strong in his
phraseology, when he said that all such grants *era
contrary to the spirit of the Constitution. Accords
ling to such reasoning, every one of those Acts set-
' tling the Civil List revenue, were a violation of the
Constitution [hear!], because it was clear that by
each of these Acts, the Legislature left in the Crown)
property not granted by the Parliament. If this was
against the Constitution, then forfeitures and seizures,
and all grants arising therefrom, might be, with equal
justice, said to be anti-conaitutional. Besides, grants
might be made in ease of the public service, though
not immediately for the public service, which,,
however, it would not be fair to consider as an abuse
of public money. it was at the same time bat just
to consider that the Civil List had not at any time
i been adequate to the claims upon it. Blackstone
was a Writer not disposed to yield or compromise the
privileges of the subject, and yet in the year 1777 he
had acknowledged the utter deficiency of the Civil
List to answer the claims upon it, and even appeelei
to every gentleman of private fortune, it from an im=
partial calculation of the proportion of his respective
j means to the private demands upon him oven at.that
I period, the (iivil List could be supposed to be ade.
quate to the great demands upon it. It was unfair
in his Learned rrlend to talk oteiOtt Alfons as the
amount of the Droits at present. The net sum, in.
eluding every possiblt, item, was little more than
seven millions, and from even that there were several
reductions on behalf of the immediate public serviq!
that must reduce them within even three millions and
some odd thousands. The reductioni themselves
amounted to more than a moiety—the mere payments
made to captors exceeded two millions by three or
four thousand pounds; and as to the objection tta
captors iu certain cases, he wished to know from his
Learned Friend, if he would take upon him to say)
that in no case ought private captors to have re.
muneration ? Might not war break out under such
circumstances as to render it most just and eze
pedient that private captors should be temune.
rated? Another deduction was that of 46,5541 to
neutral claiMants. There was a still farther reduc-
tion of 300,0001. in consideration of law coos, tic.
Under the head of special payments there Wall no len
a sum than 111,6871. a further deduction as to the
indemnification of Officers for costs interred In Ad.
miralty Courts, where ships taken under drama
stances of strong suspicions. have turned but it have
been neutrals • his Learned Friend could not be
that thee- -- "Ind - 7ht be 'every %

House ott the present occasion. Hai

'pinion, however, on the subject sii
the House to-might, he begged shorty
thilt opinion 110 w was. lie could %

IDreiti of the
ieilid hi 'ills _ i -- ---
rehtAie duty atlas to the enjo:
they originally constituting a par'
of carrying on war. In many desp.
the public revenue, at this moment, formed a ge-
neral mass, all called the King's revenue. It was of
greet importance to this country, that we had divided
our revenue under separate heads, applicable to spe-
cific purposes. One of these distinct heads compre-
hended the expences of the Royal Family, and the
great Law and other aficers of State. For his (Mr.
Giddy's) part, he would much rather that the Judges,
&c. were distinctly provided for and that what was
called the Civil List should be confined to what was
properly his Majesty's Household. It now appear.
ed, however, that these Admiralty Droits, which
were formerly applied to the exigencies of the State,
remained in the person of the King. if so, how-
ever, the duties which properly belonged to it, he
had no hesitation in thinking, attached to it also ;
and if there was a deficiency in any of the branches
of the public service, this fund was applicable to the
supplying of such deficiency. It might be said that
the burdens on the Civil List were so great, that
they were barely made up, from this source.—
This might be so ; but still he was of opinion that
it was much better that an increase adequate to the
charges upon it should be made to the Civil List,
'than that the deficiency should be supplied from
an unsettled fund. Though it was not likely that
these funds should be prostituted to unworthy pur-
still this wee one of these theoretical cases
ircZ 7 were 4adled iiiii tdinard against. Hi§
° . • , rable and ' - ' Fiiepd had . said,
~,44. • salt. seerat. • made with his
. . that idles not it thatitabeald be al. 'I
tile& . , dog the present reign.. -lisst, . when the
iiemea was called on to make/rods provision for the
Aa rissvn it was proper that they 'should look to thei
eieeasses width belonged to it. .Aselnsady said, he
.leaked upon this fund as implying co-relative duties ;1
sd, tobis mind, it would be more becoming, and
Alm Clown itself would be more dignified by the ad-
diag d this fund to the public stock, and by having
.4 providon in lieu of it, made by Parliament, such
at shield be accessary to support the magnificence of
the Crown.
Mr. STEPHEN, while he conceived the Droits of.
Admiralty to be the property of the Crown, did
let carry the argtunent the length of contending that
rilhe
the House bad no controul over them, though he de.
Med that there was any occasion for a previous ap-
prove! by Parliament of any appropriation of them'
Hi Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Broug.!
kirM) did not argue the case as if the Crown ex-
ousieed a, usurpation over this- fundi but as if be .
Meted whether the .Crown did so or nuts, The right,
iterrever, he (Mr. Stephen) conceive/ to .beindis,
pliable. His Learned Friesmi agreed, that previoes
titan Hawelntion, the.right vras.hr 'the Lord. High
Admiral, and was not that office pat in commission
__ - - - - - Admiral be-

But there was another consideratten, of no small
importance ; if Parliament had this Claim upon those
Droits, then must the most unconstitutional power
be assumed by that House, in the grants to Officer,
whO had distinguished themselves ; taking, as it
were, into their own possession, that sword
which the Constitution had' placed iu the hands
of the Prince elope.---[Near, Aeai„.kimer !)
Another main objection urged by his Honourable and
Learned Friend, was the abuse of them Droits in
Ithe discretionary grants of different sums of money
• to different branches of the Royal Familt I but this;
I if it was an abuse, it was no new one; how tame his
Learned Friend to have slept so long Over it ? In.:
deed, he appeared not to have been quite aware of
: all the dreadful evils resulting from those Droits uu,
' til to-night; but if this subject involved in it .the
question of larceny-wars, why did not his Learned
Friend take it up sooner ? It seemed as if the fancy
of his Learned Friend had grown as large as the
Droits themselves, and that it then conjured up an
unsubstantial phantom of grievances and dangers:
We were said to have carried on this war of larceny
for about eight millions, if so, no wonder that 13m,
naparte should think us, not to say 1 nation of shop,
keepers, but of bad shop-keepers, if we eaPeuded
annually twenty millions of war.taxes for the hum:
ble profit of eight millions. He concladed by ex-
' pressing his determination to rote against the Km-
: lotions.
_. •
1 Mr. BROUGHAM said in explanation, that he
' had not atioilted that the grants front the Droits td
any of the branches of the Royal Family, hid origi.
noted with Fox's administration—and to prove that
he could not have-done so, he stated from a paper he
I held in hie hand, that upon the 14th of Oct. 1805;
when Mr. Pitt was in power, the sum of 15,0001. was
i paid into Coates, banker for the Duke of Cumber,
land—there was also, a sum of 10,0000. to the Duke
of Kent, and a farther sum of 19,5001. to the late
Duke of Gloucester.
• Mr. STEPHEN, in explanation, mid, that he in
What he liadsisid, had alluded to that part of the
Droits which bad been carried aver in the aid of the
-Civil list Revenue, and that as fares that respected
-the grants to the Royal Family-that bad baleen plaaz
on the 15th March, 14106, when Mr. Fox was at the
head of tire Goverantent.
- Ceptaln:-lIE T paid many Masotti. dont...
' pliments tb the ument of his Hon. Friend, (Mr.
Broughataiowlso; contended, had net Been it tit
r,
. answered* *tat had fallen tram tbi-itttorbey-Geer
neraT. .Ikidmitted that-there wart* a certain es*
tent illegal '.' .vettea-King,-A4stg, which thenstea
1' '
Jillshment : 'List did not take away, but
andpit Ili jis'opesate far the public Servithi,
..joid'AigiL thilltituas tti be appropriated to Me
.1
.et.:,..„..... ----.--, •
~,,„

r

.

t subject to abuse, and the same argu- norant that there were, and might be every day, a
ustify the taking away any other part, variety of cases iu which it would be Cruel and uut
of it. just in the extreme to make Officers liable, perhaps)
1Y did not intend to have troubled the to imprisonment for debt, durifig life, merely beCause
present occasion. Having changed his they had done their duty and obeyed those orders
ever, on the subject since he came into which they dared not to have evaded.—Lffeer t)—
;light, he begged shortly to state what As to the.seformation which *as said to have bee* •
tow was. He could ;et dispute that the derived f a certain Fr:Gentleman) there. Weld '
Adreivaltx, as tca
were
ned, were be no d that that Heine bee*"
I BUPA' ; But WWI' iltr'lltitp •
. .
atlachiii to the enjoynient Of them, calling I' to .in collecting materiels fee furnishing '
Iv constituting a part of the means inch inforinatioh; but surely the-hdurittotitin was not
on war. In many despotic countries I the less valuable because it came4frooe Rev. Oats •
.venue, at this moment, formed a ge..l But there was another consideration, of no small

lig s family expenaes Iby the King. If the right was in the ;Admiral be- ' vataperposes. • - --
aid that Parliameet I fora, it seemed to follow that it must-mow loci" the .'llite 'Roo. Captain INERBERT contended, the, -
its Members paying I Craws. The words of Lord Clarendon 2acklressed .by *situ; the controul cit air' Ikeits of the A.drela
plitation had been teCharies 11. which hie Hoe: and Leashed Friend isklialtirliament, was ittietolsetronsidered is arey
attiktiest lit the law; end be was aettnishectehitt ant -.
ebts of the Crown, !tooted, stented-aaen to favour this idea, Ida Leltd-
; concealed, that he : ship tellieghis Majesty that he, not hieipeepie, will. pet** iould:resibly conteive, 4thatse late a set,i • .:
of complaint. This ',lop *bond nably easteit‘iirikefferiereitai.prefits,:af as 480;0601 shotil*aeatatilly:eaki *Meet sissti,ass.
thought the present bli *Moe ifielemalittiliecapasis,ll4*at-Ssalieque- trottl• - .Ibt4ht".llll44t 4talt 6rittilectisitY tix aft *4/
sag. ' •J•Wklioutellt to tbasellicitiosiiiiiiiv. hoe mina ,tierrept taisapplittatieu of die Sauey 1 rtlftliti4ge
- . !rZi-!-.:Y-. k"!.. - :•'''' ' t-. ---•- -.- .: - . . ,