The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-02-13 00:00:00

)4•AGlaa44bovishari.44o-OrArtiest Tete read-aleteesson,
lt)pethfr governm...nt ought now to take
oat of hands of the on. Member for Limerick the
oration whiarniarnon-:lleiniter had originated. Ile
<llr. Peels) wash! appeal to the admission of the Hon.
•-liember himself, as to the active part taken by the Irish
• tinverinetti, in carrying into execution the recommend.
•ntiena of the l'onimissioners. That admiseittn was quite
• schil lett. to vindieate the conduct of Hovernment in
• tbis instance.. The Hight lion. Gentleman then went
it.to some of the details of the question, and maintained
that it ought to be left in the hands of the Hen. Member
who had first brought it forward.
Mr. C. GRANT, in the cow, of a few observations,
•enpressed a wish that the subject should be again trier-
•red to a Committee.
• Mr. W. WYNN detailed the particular circumstances
.of the case, and said:that the regular course would
have been for the house to call nitnesses to the bar, and
•thes decide upon their testimony. in this instance,
however, there were many witnesses who held official
situations in Ireland, whotn it would not be convenient
to mill, and therefore it was better to leave the case to
.the Commissioners. is his opinion, .it ought still to be
.tart in the same bands; and it would be• for his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Rice) to bring forward his charges again,
if he thought it expedient,
Mr. RlCR•htiefly. replied. He did not mean to say
that Lord Londonderry had given any distinct pledge
to collertake the question, but his moving fur a Com-
=Wee was very extraordinary, if he intended to leave
it with him (Mr. R). He contended that it would be
lowering " the dignity of Parliament if a charge of this
nature were left to-the care of one individual.
The motion was then agreed to.
SCOTCH CLERGY.
• Mr. HUME said that, in pursuance of the notice which
belted given on the preceding night, he rose to move for a
Return of the amount of the stipends paid to the Scotch
Clergy in the years 1730 end 1522. His desire was, that
.the proper officer should make a calculation of the annual
stipends of the Clergy of each district, and thereby the
House wou'd he able to know what was the amount of all
.callactively. His object was, to have an abstract of the
stipends in the different years, divided into four classes. as
-*bey were Feld in corn and in money. He understood that
there was a regular estimate made out in the year IMO, and
he repeated that the object he bad in view by his motion was
to here an abstract of that estimate, together with an ah-
lasct of the stipends of the three Isst years, laid before the
House. As he could not see any reasonable objection to the
motion, he would not detain the House any further than re-
state that it was for a Mont, first, of the parishes and
churches in Scotland, with the number of Clergymen ap-
pointed to them, who resided, and who did not. By that it
would bernadeto appear that nearly all of them did reside in
contradistinction to the Clergymen of the Church of Eng-
land. The Inwood pert of the motion. was to have an ab-
stract of the.valee of their stipends._ whether in corn or In
money. These two parts referred to the three last years.
The third point embraced In his motion was to have an ab-
stract of the estimates of the stipends of 1730 as then
taken.
Theyention.baing seconded, and put from the Chair,
ifineretery PEEL .said the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber (Mr. Hums).seesed.tivcompeehend much more than his
notice implied. For MS own pert. he confessed that he
was willing to, give every Information in his possession on
that or any ogler object that might come before the House,
Bat be felt desirous that the lion. Member would, postpone
asotionnin order that time might be given to ascertain
whether the Information required could be obtained. lie
doubted very much whether it mould be had, except by a
particular reference to every ladividual Clergyman la Scot-
land. .

—itir..-HI.ISJE said he was sorry to seems much ignorance
prevail in that qnarter,'Uo a Abject which ought to be
known. It was notorious.' that there. was an office of
Tieeth 'in Scotland ; and that there was a clerk of the
7leyettsirbo !mild give the required information. lie
(Me. Ham) had written, prior to his giving his notice,
to Scotland, to.learn how 11.4,motion could be complied
with, and the answer was that it could be obtained
throngh that office. All the augmentations made were
registered in that office: and the only difficulty in com-
plVing with the motion arc‘e from the conversion
ulpayment in grain into payment in money. Be-
sides tbemffice already mentioned, there were several
county Fiera, which would facilitate the object of the
mutton.

Air. Secretary PEEL said that the Hon. Gentleman
bad made a motion quite different from that implied by
his notice, and then he thought proper to taunt him
(me. Pert) with ignorance on a subject with which he
ought to he acquainted. He would ash the Hon. Mein.
1 er, if he did not tell him that he would oppose his mo-
tion until he would Lye time to learn u 'tether it was
possible to comply with it. The Hon. Member himself
.was the person to whom ilk charge of ignorance more
Fir.iperly applied, because he made a motion so-different
from his notice.

siderehly diminished, if experience had not tunes. .....
payee lotrore he placedimplicit reliance ioeliedeclaeatdone
of his Melesiv's Ministers. However unpleasant it might
Ira to doubt the declarations add d frtiin ihelltrone
le that House, he could not foetid''r entertaining doubts
en theesresent occasion; and be would state one or tsvo
instances to the House, which would jollity • the siespi-
don with which he looked to any pledges or declare=.
Lions coining from his Majesty's Ministers, for the
King's Speeds was only to he regard:ll as the Speech of
his Ministers. Such Wall the ingincerity of these declare:
tiny', that the King's Speech, which was annually mil
dressed to that House, hail unfortunately become a mere
farce. lie would select three striking instances,te Glut-
trate the degree of reliance which was to he placed in
the promise of Ministers. In the year 1817, a reduction
of expemlittire was proasised in the King's Speech ; the
estimates laid before the House amounted to 13,951,000 P
but when the accounts came to be made np,. the ex-
penditure amounted to 14,930,0001. so that, instead of
reduction, there was an increase of nearly 1,000,000/.
beyond the estimate for the year. 1 n. 1819 *his Korai
.Highness the Prince Regent won need that a considete
able reduction would be made in the naval and military
estimates. In that year the estimates were stated at
I 4,3110,0001.; but at the end of the year the ',risen&
tore turned. out to be 15,155,060/ ; 89 abet torte ef:11
again an increase of nearly 1,1100,909/. beyondthe esti-
Instr. In 1821 his Majesty again expressed his satis-
faction that he had been enabled to make a reduction in
our military establishment. In that year the estimate
was 14.3511,0101. whereas the actual expenditure amount-
ed to 15,130,000/. being an excess of 7801. beyond the
',Wingate. The expenditnre in the year MI exceeded
that of the year 1817, by the antis of 212,000/. Such
was the manner in which that house was cajoled by fair
words and promising declarations, that his Majesty's
Ministers were most anxious to lessen. the burthens of
the people. When the house looked, however, to the
aetnal amount of redaction, and compared it with the
amount of taxation, they would tied that the burthens
of the people were greater this year than they haul been
for the last seven years. He int reated the house to look
to the result, and not he seduced by the sweet honeyed
words of his ajeety's Ministers.—(l laugh.) The result
would prove what they and the country had to expect
from them. Having mule this short statement, he was
anxious to direct the attention of the House to a circum-
stance which had taken place within these few days.—
The declaration from the throne was, that the estimates
hail been framed with every attention to economy.—
This was the self same phrase which had been used
fur the last twenty years, and the House, therefore,
would know what value. to attach to it. lie would now
come to a particular instance—the promotion of Lord
Beresford to the office of Lieutenant General of the Ord-
nance. The expenses of the Ordnance Department,
which previous to the French war amounted to 400,0001
were now 1,200,0001. so that the expenditure had actu-
ally increased threefold, During the life time of
Sir Hildebrand Okes, the late Lieutenant General
of the Ordnance, it would undoubtedly have
been extremely unjust to have. revelled that office. He
had scarcely conceived it possible, however, that when
hie office, which was admitted le he useless and unne-
cessary, became vacant by the death of that officer, his
Majesty's Ministers should again have filled it up. Ind
the year 1813, the Commissioners of blilitsry Inquiry
declared that they were inclined to think this office woe
Dot necessaly, especially iTthe attention et the blaster
General of tie-Ordnance was not withdrawn from the
dutits uf his office by other appointments. Lord Moire,
in his examination before the Commission/re' expressly
declared that lie thought the office useless. Lord Chat-
haus; indeed, was of a different opinion ; but the Com-
missioners skewed, by the decision to which they came,
that they placed more reliance on the opinion of Lord
Moira, than on thatof Lord Chatham. If the Commis-
sioners in 1811, considered the office of Lieutenant
General of the Ordnance useless in time of war, he
would ask the House—he would appeal to the country
to say, what possible grounds his Majesty's Ministers
could have for filling it up in time of peace. He did not
with to say any thing to the disparagement of the Noble
Lord who had been appointed to this situation, and who,
as he (Mr. H.) was informed, knew nothing of the ap-
pointment until it wasp d upon his acceptance. Re
was ready to admit the merits of that Noble Lord as an
officer, and he hoped Ise might long enjoy the honours
and rewards which be had received for his services.—He
was aware that the merits of that gallant officer might he
urged against him as a just remind for his appointment.
He fully admitted his merits, but he would just state to
the house what he (Lord Beresford) had received from
the governmeut as a reward for his services. He had ab-
tallied a pension of two thousand pounds by Act of Par-
liament when he was raised to the Peerage—a provision
which had been deemed amply sufficient by the liberality of
Parliament. lie was afterwards appointed Governor of
Jersey. the income of which office appeared by a paper laid
on the Table of the Rouse to amount to 1,4.231. The income
of a Lieutenant General was nrsrfy 60W. and that of a Col.
of a regiment 7or SOW. lir; was aware, however, that some
deductions were made froth the pay of an Officer uniting
those situations, and he wordd assume 'that he received only
1,000:: a year as Lieutenant General and Colonel of a regi-
ment. The income which he would derive horn the office
which had been just conferred upon him amounted to 1,6911.
making a total income of upwards of 6.0001. Considering
this, and also the amount of what the Beresford family re-
cei led .out of the public money, be thought the House ought
nor to grant the supplies, at least till furnished with informa-
tion regarding the necessity of this office; and the reason for
'seeping it up, after it hitidbeen declared untfeeesiaty by the
Committee on the Army Expenditure. He did not Say but
the dollies which devolved upon. the Lieutenatitlienelyl of
,Ceidesinie were' fieportani to the•Coantryt,hieheen It was
well known to the house that the duties had Ivewillrery pro-
perly. discharged by the Secretary while the principal was
absent it Waloheren. If his Majesty's Mitriaters, were thus
deeriained to go on after reductions bad beers recommended
by.Cenunittees of „Inquiry, then it was necessary that the
supplies, should be curtailed.—(llear, hear,) Ile trusted
when distress was la mach felt all over the country, he
would in this, and in every proposal for economy and
retrebehtnent, have the support of many whobad not till
then known that the appointmert had taken place in op-
poSitiou to the recommendation of the Committee of
Inquiry. If the House was satisfied that the appointment
of Lord lieresford was necessary and proper. he would
not canter them to support his motion : but Haley were
of the same opinion with the Committee of Inquiry to
which he had alluded, they would give him their support.
I'he Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving, as an
Amendment to the Speaker's leaving the Chair, "'That
the House Should postpone granting any Supplies. till
they had information how Lord Hermit-twit had been air
pointed to the iitnation of Lieutenant General of Ord•
nancte—or how that situation had been filled up contrary
to the recommendation of the -Committee of Military
Inquiry."
Mr. Secretary CANNING wished to ascertain whether
the Honourable Gentleman wished to put his Resolution
in the shape of an Amendment to the motion fur going
into a Committee?•

Mr. HUME replied in the affirmative.
Mr. SiecrettrytiANNlNG then_ said,.he would sub-
mit Whether the line of conduct pursued by the Hop..
Gentleman was not both novel and extsaordinaq ; and
whether it would not have been better for the hon. Gen

of forwai
? The !
was Cl

of the lit
_ thetriffist.yrower watt
slpnJd opt be resorted •to unleW in cases cif absolute ne.
ceitity. It I;nght not at any rate to be resorted to for the
isoephsteirtffifettrwatroWiterattted truestion, the very first
line it bad been mentlonetbiahe House. -In Inch a case
theliaosa ought stirely.tait„t twiovixte from the usual
Farliamrntary practice. Tfie bon, gentleman. had ad.
nailed [hat 'hi approved ot..the character of Lord
Beyisfutil. blow. earthen wiio at,t he character
tof the tnan, et the patent of his invitee, or at the rela-.
Omp in wbith lie stood to the.bisstir.ten. of Ordnance,
would . have no, need to. resort to Parliamentary
lofluence in order to account for his appointment. When
the long services which they had undertaken together,
the similar habits which they had acquired, and the mu-
tual esteem wIth:11 subsisted between them were con-
sidered, it would be found that there were abundant
swetii'es for the appointment besides Parliamentary in.,
.doettee. If, however, there could be any person by
whom these and similar considerations could he over-.
looked ; he would, to do away with all prejudice, state
two facts: First, the office had been offered to two others
before it had, been offered to Lord Beresfoal;. and
secondly, it had been refused by them. It hail, in the
first instanoe, been offered to the Earl of Hopetown ; and
upon his declining it, it had been offered to Lord Hill,
who had also declined to accept of it. IVlien neither of
Shese.would accept of it, it had been offered to Lord
Beresford ; and it had been offered to him for qualities
rbich were cotillion to all the three. 'The motive which
bad caused it to be offered, was common to all ; namely,
the length and importance of their services; and he was
at otos* to see how the two were free from the imputation
of Parliamentary influence, and the third not.—As for
himself, lie knew of no efficient abjection to the line of
conduct which had been pursued. It was not for him
to say that he was actriainted with all the knowledge
and all the duties which were required by, and devolved
upon the Lien:enant•General of the Ordnance; bat this
1:c could say, that the office was not made on purpose for
Lord Beresford. It had become vacant, and he bad
been appointed to it after its having been offered to
others,and been refused. He knew not what objection
there might be to the office, or how a:tong a case the
Honourable Gefhtleman (Mr. Hums) could make out
against it. If that lion. Gentleman had a case, surely
it was one of which he ought to have given notice, and
appointed a day. He would not undertake to say that
the opt was open to no attack ; but he took no shame
to himself. on account of Lord Beresford'sappointmetit.!
The appointment had not been offered to hint till it had
been refused by others, which was a proof that there
were no corrupt motives. if the Honourable Gentleman
dose to delay his motion, it might come in another
shape with more propriety, as well as effect; bat if he
persisted in it in the present instance, he (Mr. Secretary
Canning) would find himself obliged to take the sense of
the House upon it.
Mr. BROUGHAM regretted that Lis Honourable
Friend should have brought forward so important a
motion in such a way, as to allow of any defence of that
against which he contended, on account of the manner
in which the motion had been Introduced, Hit mold
not help wishing that it hail been postponed, os Vireo'
by much too important for being introduced so *idiot!
ally and casually. as it were. If any thing could increase
his regret at this, it was the line of defence which bad
been set up by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr;
Secretary Canning). That defence or explanation, or
whatever it might be, had resolved itself into a personal
defence of Lord Beresford, rather than soy thing is
jostificatioo of the keeping up of the office. The Right
klotwoorahle Gentleman had shown why Lord Beresford '
had been appointed in preference to some others; but
he bad not offered even the shadow of a reason why the
office itself had been kept up in opposition to the recoup
mendation of the Committee, neither had he offered any
reason why it had been offered to either. He himself
had the highest respect for Lord Beresford, and be could
also understand why the Duke of Wellington should
respect those who had been his companions in arms;
bat he remained to he informed why the office itself
existed. All that had been said by the Right Horoor.
able Gentleman was, that he found the office existingand
vacant. But surely the bare part of existence was no
proof of utility. The office had been pointed out by the
Committee of Military Inquiry for abolition, and so the
question was not respecting the qualifications or merits
of Lord Beresford ; but that an office had been conti•
ailed which ought to have been abolished. Still, how-
ever, the proposal of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Hume)
was rather an extreme measure. There was something
harsh as welt as inconsistent in proposing that the house
should withhold all supplies, till they were put in pos.
session of information which had never been till that
moment mentioned. Upon this ground, as well as upon
the Imps, the certainty that it would come better in the
regular Parliamentary way, he would advise his Ho.
nourable Friend to withdraw his motion. He bad no
hesitation in saying, indeed Ise was quite certain that
postponement would not operate in prejudging or in-
juring the question, or preventing that full discussion
of it which its importance required. lie trusted that
some delay, at least a delay of a day or two, would be
agreed to by his Honourable Friend.
HUM E was sorry it lie had taken the house
unawares. But lie could not agree to the postponement.
The country was led to believe, that the vacancy when
it occurred would not be filled up. He only asked for a
delay of 4S hours in the granting of the Supplies; and
if this was not to be granted, then it would do better to
leave As bouts. altogether, and allow his Majesty's
Ministers to settle matters as themselves thought best.

General Sir R. C. FEROUSSON thought that, consider-
ing the state of the country, private friendship anti all things,
should give way to economy, Ile would vote for The
Amendment of his lion. Friend. The office was an useless
One, sand it had bVen so stated by the Commissioners. It
was true, as bad been stated, that the whole of the duty bad,
in the absence of the principal, been done by the Secretary.

Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but before -many of
hem had left the Gallery, .
- - - - - -

Mr. WARR& rose to say. that he (lid not give an opinion
upon the merits of the qaestion ; but, as to the manner, he
liked the ordinary practice of motions by notice, as it was
extremely inconvenient for lion. Gentlemen not to know
what motions were to be discussed before they came to the
House.

Mr. G. BENNET felt himself imperiously called upon
to reduce an useless office, considering the great embarrass-
ment of the country. Ile would take every opportunity of
topposing wasteful expenditure ; and if his Honourable
Friend (Mr. Name) chose to divide the House upon every
item of the Supply, he would acquiesce in it. As to the
practice of giving notices, he thought it of any thing but
use, as it was that which enabled Ministers, on the great
Geld days, to bring forward their sweeping majorities. It
was by diverting the attention from these field-days, that
his Honourable Friend had been able to operate so much
economy. lie hoped he would go on.
Mr. BROUGHAM—CIod forbid that he should object ha
this or to any other measure of economy. All that he wished
to do was to disentegle the question from that of the Supply.
by which It would have every chance of being carried by a
majority

Mr. C. O.I4ITHINSON,—The °Seeks!! been voted by the
,Conmittee to be useless. The work had been alt done by the
Secretary•, therefore they. ought not to hesitate a moment in
abolishing it, especially in the present Important Crisis:—

s
•

'UMW prittledlarly,to that past ft
which promised every possible re- 4

Wk. would not wish to put off the dis-
cussion of so important a measure as that which was pro-
posed by his Honourable Friend. but he thought that Ties-
tion rbOtttd not be confolffidttd with the question of Supply ;
to stop the Supply was one of the most important privileges
,tithe House, but It was one to-which they ought not to
advert but in extreme cases; sod If the motion of his lion.
;11relead wbutd at all tend to stop the granting of Supplies,
titealsi his (Mr. Abercromby's) opinion, it ought to be de-
layed ; he had no wish to underrate the value of his Ito-,
Friend's proposition, far from it ; he wished that propos:-
Hon to come before the (louse in such a shape•as that ;t
could be discussed fully and freely, and for this reason lie
Mould recommend to his -Honourable Friend to detach
It from the question of Supply. If he would do so there
was every. chance - that be would carry it by a large mn.
jority. If he would keep it on its own merits, It could no.,
recommended as it was by the Committee, foil of being
carried.

Sir F. BURDETT thonght himself bound, upon
most occasions, to suppdrt the Member for Aberdeen,
who in his seal to save the public money really deserved
support. Still he could not go along with hi ain the
present case. It would be inconsistent in the house, on
the one hand, to call upon his Majesty in the present
critical state of Europe, to support the honour and dig.
nity of the nation, and on the other to withhold the
supplies neeessary for this purpose. The stopping hif
the supplies was, as it were, the ultimate power of the
House of Commons, and should not he resorted to so
long as there were any other means of redress. The
Commissioners deserved credit for their recommendation
with regard to this office ; and the honourable gentle.
man deserved commendation for Lis zeal to see what
they had proposed, carried into effect. Ile (Sir F. B )
believed that the honourable gentleman had grounds
for what he had stated ; but then he 092 lit to beware
that io the manner in which be pursued his object, he
did not go beyond what was warranted by prudence and
discretion. If he had a hops of carrying this measure,
he would risk it upon an issue of this description.--
Considering the state of Europe, the relation in which
this country stood, and the sacrifices which it might he
coiled upon to make, he hoped his honourable friend
would not press it. He would do well to consider the
state in which lie placed his friends, and on that account
be induced to withdraw his amendment.

Mr. HUMR.---If the motion which be had proposed
would in any way interfere with the honour of the
country, or disturb the harmony of all parties, he
would, for the sake of unanimity, withdraw it.—(clear,
hear.)
The amendment was withdrawn accordingly, and the
house resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. Re.
port to•worruw.
The house having resumed, a Return of the number
of persons and their salaries, empioyed at the Port of
London, and the ontports, in the Exrise, Customs, and
Preventive Service, was moved.—Ordered.

Colonel DAVIES moved for certain Returns relative to
the Preventive Service, but from the cohfusion in the Gal-
lery, la conseqnence of the expected division, we were pre-
cluded from bearing the precise terms of his motion.
Mr Secretary PEEL. in • low toile, bore testimony,
(as we understood) to the great efliciency of the Preventive
Seriice.

Pdt. Q. BENNET adrerted to the number of persons
confined in various Prisons and Houses of Correction under
the charge of Smuggling.
Aftfr a few words from Sir G. Comm axe and Col. Di:
VOWTh• Hetarus were ordered.

. . •
.
•
. TH . * STA eu.i. . •
• . • ------- . ..._— ___
,--
Al reit&
than an abandonment of duty on the part of the Go- 4,. .; f 4 tp4pulet. , , .. ,
.
verntuent,—(Cries of hear, hear.) Were he in the Ors ' • MI. !juges 'gild ffiat. eftre the ,eak ': • ' :1P -.• 11 i ritat' icei
of his Hon. Frietoi, he would not stir further in Me e Wisheir to stlNVias Is re* obvert-alio' to e L, • r rteilifei nit which
business, and then it would be seen how the Government He should have felt gratified in hearing it stated, in the tionablt in the power c
would act. - !Web which' hadheen delivered frees •th*Thedne, OW plier—,but then-dist IA
Mr. PEEL said that the Hon. anti Learned Member the strictestattention had been.paid lo ecoupsuy, and -shottid Rot be resorted
who had spoken last, argued as if this question was now that the buithena of the'people were likely' to he cod- ceseity. It i;tight not at
- - • nn•ai.1...1.1....1:...:w;.1••••1 ;I. oitniwiPn re. heft not tiunrist biertel Parrisntrielbfetbrkfr II

.., .. ..
• •
Itrti bast ti i items irlie !louse ituglit to
honk A in,4•640114 Cs Majesty's Speech
mtnpet Ilt—ii-was unities- trenchment.
141111511141.11111.1111111.1111111.1-
Mr. ABERCRONIF
House to witilhoW the sup•
all to extreme re.tnegy, and cussion of so imports