The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-03-06 00:00:00

MR. ELLIS.

Dr. LUSHIN4iTON said, as the motion which be had I
to make directly affected an Honourable anti Learned
Gentleman opposite to him, he should discharge the
task which was unposed on him with as moth brevity as
possible. The basis on which he should found the mo-
tion which he was about to submit to the Hon., was.
that the lion. Member for Dublin could net discharge
the ditties of Master in Chancery in Ire! —that lie
must neglect either his duties as Alaster, or ;es Mewher
of Parliament; and that, therefore, as the !Lillie 114,1'3
paramount and compulsory claim on the v.rviee4 of all
item... Own, the suitors in Chancery must be n,•l'..s.arilY
The sufferers. In stating' to the Huse xi-hat the duties
.4•the lion. Member as Master in Chancery were. he had
1110 very best evidence, that of a Commis.W.n appointed
by the Crown and of the lion. Member himself upon
oath The Hoc Member, he should premise, had put.
ehased the resignation of his predecessor, Mr. in
Hti. in pnrsnance of a long custom (wi.ti the evil of
which the Hon. Member was not chargeat le). though
the practice had generated a whole train of chows in the
administration of justice in Ireland.—\.t mHiicould read
the ltrpurt of the Commissioners of imptiry, without
perceiving that the administration of justice in Ireland,
tiw the last 30 rears, hail been a system of rurruptiun.
said was disgraceful to those by whom it .v :is ailminis-
tered.—(Hear, hear.)—From the Report of Oil. Commis-
sionerslt appeared, that one of the six Clerks hail charged
1297 attendances in a single cause, withunt basing at-
tended Brea once.—(clear, hear, hear.)—This was only
Our of the many abuses which prevailed up to the present
Ilay, to the great injury of the suitors in the different
Courts. The Hon MeMber (Mr. Ellis) entered upon
his office of Maser in Chancery in ltSt.6. When es-
antineilupon oath brfort. the cotnnii-sioners, he stated
that the duties of his office were various seal difficult.
Here the Hon. Member referred to the Report,in which
it was stated that the Masters in Chancery bad to at-
teed to the eases of lunatics, taxing bills of costs,
bankrupts' affairs, and, ia short, whatever it nil At
please the Lord Chancellor to refer to them. Could
any oat doubt that the absence of any lientletnan who
had such various duties to attend to, must he produc-
tive of the most serion injury to the suitors of the
Kish Court of Chancery ?—([fear.)—The next quits-
thm pat to the Neu. and Learned Washer b) the Com-
leissioners was, as to the length of time which was us—
einery to perform those duties. Upon this point he
kbillas most unwarrantable cridence--the evidence of

. .
the flOn; tad LeUMW Member hinisol4 wll4 sits tor-
roboraNd 4y he, other Mute's in Chassesy. : Tie
Hon. and Leaned Member suited, that• the doges of
his oast required his personal atteadanes during tan
months of the year—that be attended its his office
from eleven till four every day in Tenn, and out
of Term, more or less, as business required—
uod that he also atteudk4 in his elks in the
atoning for the dispatch of various brooches of
business connected with his situatiu. How, then,
could any Oestlemon so occupied attend to his Par-
liiimentily duties without injury to the public ? It
was impossible that a was, under such circumstances,
eould•discharge his duty, unless he could make 49
boars out of 24. In another part of the Report, the
Honourable and Learned Member stated, that the du-
ties of his office could lot be discharged by depnty.
—(Hear.) He trusted, then, that notwithstanding
the desperate situation in which motions arising
from his (Dr. Lashington's) side of the House were
generally placed, that the Members of the Sister
Kingdom, at least, would reflect upon the situation
in which recent circumstances had placed that un-
happy country, and endeavour to preserve to the
suitors in the Courts, at least, a wreck of their for-
tunes. He presumed that the. Hon. tied Learned
Member (Mr. Ellis), or his friends would say, that
the motion with which he was about to conclude
Would operate as as es pat Aide Irw, and go :on
to -Segos that ne such' motion should be made until
all the mischief complained of was dune. If lie knew
any thing of the nature of an es post fuels law,
his motion would be totally different from it. He
could allow the mischief to be dune rather than
introduce an es post farts law to prevent it. Thy
fact, however, was this. Thu Honourable Member's
office was conferred during pleasure. Now, if lie
could shew that the holding of such an office was
1 incompatible with the duties of a Member of Par-
lament he trusted that he would establish his ease.
The Honourable Member was appointed to his dice
in I SOti, anil he (Dr. Lushington) was happy to say
that he was fully qualified for the duties imposed
upon him ; but this was an additional reason why
he objected to the absence of the llonourabie and
Learned Hentleman from his office. Two or three
Masters in Chancery had been recently appointed,
none of whom could be ?opposed to possess the
knowleil/4e and experience of the lion. anal Learned
Member. The fees of office were stated by the Hon.
Member himself to amount to 37101. a-year. He meant
no imputation upon the lion. and Learned Member,
1 when he stated that those fees had been principally
created, within the last 25 years, by the Masters
themselves, for their own benefit. In addition to
the fees, the lion. Member had a salary of 4441/. a-year,
which, with half the fees of the examining clerk, made
the situation worth -141101. a-year—a sum as large as
the salary of any Puisue Judge of this Country. The
Hun. Member, in support of his argument, quoted the
Mel of several Members who had been arrested by
order of the blouse, though their excuse was kivival
gone to attend the ditties of public offices in !Mind.
Suppose that a Call of the House were to take plare,
would it he a good answer on the part of the Hon. and
Learned Member to say, that h_ was copra in ia-
quirittg into a complicated anal difficult . ue_ • up"
*fame with his oSee? 4.14 i

ta the previous discussions on this fines-
observed, that the Noble Lord opposite (Lor.i
Castlereagh) and a Eight Him. Friend of his now
abroad (Mr. Canning) had declared, that in the event
of the lion. 31ember's wishing to retain b0..11 his Seat
aerl I,ls (Mice, they hail rot the slightest obiectiol to
moving an Address to the Crown, praying hie removal
teous his situation of Master in Chancery.—(hear,
hear.)--This he had heard from the Noble Lard, and
he
The Hon. Member, after souse further observations.
concluded by moving a series of Resolutions, the pur-
port of which was, that the situation of Master in
Chancesy (Ireland) required the constant attendance
of the person tilling that 0111.. e ; amt that Thomas
Ellis, Esq. Master in Chancery, who had been recent-
ly e:ecsed Member of Parliament for the City of
Dublin, was incapable of ifficiently discharging both
these ditties. 'fhe lion. Member said, Ise meant to
follow this mafiosi up by another, praying an Address
to the Crown for the dismissal of Thomas Ellis, Esq.
from Isis office of Master in Chancery in Ireland.
Mr. LENNARD (of Ipswich) secondel the motion
in a short hut forcible speech.
Mr. ELLIS was abant to address the Home, when

The SPEAKER observed, that a ditiicuitv pre-
sented itself to his 'idol upon this question. When
any motion resi4ectin; the pritilege of the House, or
inculpa:ory of and• Member, was hrouzlit forward, the
form was to allow the 3lember to address the !lime be-
fore the qnestion was read from the Chair, and that
then such 'Member should retire. It would be for the
House to decide how fur the present question came
within that reirulation.

31r. . N was of upioion, that on the present
ocrasion, the Honourable and Learned Member (Mr.
Ellip) ought to be heard before t::e question was read
from the Chair. _

'1 he SPEAKEIL felt that if any doubt existed, it
wettld be better to allow the Houssurable-Gentleman to
address the House and retire, before the question was
put. By doing this no harm con:dm-lee, whereas by a
different mode of proceeding, they nuit;lst create a very
inconvenient precedent.
.Ir. ELIAS then rose. He commenced by stating
that be should mat oceupy the attention of the I louse at
any length upon this question. There were, however,
a few farts wOich he felt himself hetind to explain.
He lamented that in a case in which his feelings were
necessarily engaged, and in which he felt inuelt deliracy,
so little delicacy had been etweised towards him.
Exaggerated statements had been made, lost in such
a way that he was precluded from answering them—
(" No, no :" from the Oppo,.ition Benches.) He might
be wrong in his assertions, bugle felt when charges
were made against hint of neglizeitce and delay,
which were attributable not to his but to other oXseers
he had a right to s .y that exasperated acid intemperate
statements had been made, which he wan in delicacy
restrained from answering—(Loral cries of bear, hear.)
11e could assure the House, Wat were the present
question one of a private stature, he would at once
withdraw trout the contest, rather than have Iris name
held up as it had bees, day by day, anal week .by week,
W the censure of the public. But be felt, that in .his
present sitwatiou be had ditties to perform, not of a
private, but of a ',Odic deltaic ; hie ease was raised

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opffitb the interists the empire. awl to these in-
WOO; he was bound teatuind--(flene, hear)—.Tbe
honourable and jieurned Member went as to sista,
that in his answers to the. Commissioners. he
had, stated. that he was in his Ore daring cer-
tain Lou,, every day. and that be also attended to
certain duties in the evening; but it was quite
plain, that this answer referred to his hours of attend-

sure is his office, and not to the business to be don*
between those hours. He meant only to state to the
Comnsirioners the manner in which be distributed bis
time each day, not the quantity of business which he
had to transact. It was a fact that every day in the
year, with the exception of Christmas Day and Good
Friday, he sat in his office during the time he had
stated, waiting for . any busiuess which might come
on, bet it by no means followed that it was necessary
for him to be always in town. Nay, further, hr could
assure the House, that no injury could arise in any
quarter from his being absent from Dublin one, two,
or three months in the year. The Honourable and
Learned Member went on to state, that the business
of the Court of Chancery was conducted by rotation,
and no matter which .taster's name was set down for
any business, any other Master was fully competent to
dispose of it ; so that if any one Master was absent,
souther could he found on the spot ready to do the
It:nine's. He disclaimed any compliment at the ex-
pense of Gentlemen who were at least equally com-
petent with himself to discharge the deities imposed
un them. He could inform the House as a fact,
that the Irish Lord Chancellor never rose nntil he had
disposed of all tlw cases in his paper, and when he
(Mr. Ellis) left Dublin, there was not any paper uf
any kind i.r description unfinished in his office, thuugit
he had been previously absent for a fortnight. Be-
sides, there was no vacation ; and the Masters' office
was not situ' a single day during the w:;ole year. The
Masters in Chancery divided the business; he took
two months' vacation in Spring, anti daring. the rest
of the year he attende I to the duties of his office.—
, The question was riot whether he shAtld be deprived
I of his office, hut whether the City of Dublin should be
Ideprived of its franchise? In retiring from the House
he should say, that if they were to deei,ie against hill;
Ihe sho•Ild fed rygret, hut it won; I be more uf a public
than a private flacon-, fur the %tailed riOsts of his
country._

Mr. PEEL conter.d.4l that the House had no right
to presume that one of its Members wcitlil neg!ect his
duties in Parliament. The honourable and Learned
Gentleman who wade the a elitist 11;141 passed lightly
over the cases of (:firers iu the army and n Ivy. But
ill this case a Mesisher was elect..4l 4: hose duties were
previously known to his coustitssents; he bad notice-
taken nethine afn.rwards st bids was not ;in:ma to
them before. lint, to allude to the strolger case of
Members sere ling from Pal laatueni, toe :1 lose took
no notice of t..4-in except on a Cali of the House. The
Honourable Gentleman had nut alluded to the case of
Ambassadors at foreign Courts. The Ambassador,
however, was not disqualified, though he st-glected
his ditty in Parliament nec,.ssarily, while he performed
his duty to Isis Sovereign in the foreign Courts to
which he was appointed. The orey instance whieb
she Hon. and Learned Gentleman held quoted in support
peopsaitinst was the case of 1'6.104414 nal named
ledlnforsi, whiiiiTin fact, made against it. 31 r.Culli-
ford was a Commissioner of Nervous. in Ireland, ass I
thsi !loose, in order to enforce his attendance, reNolved
that he shopld be -eye:idiot trout the benefit of his
privilege as a Nitoolser, unit lie did attend. Ile did
attend, and he was nut removed, yet the honourable
Gentleman had said that that was a case in point. In
the I:itli of 11. ora:e the Seea.nol, ass Act was passed to
exclude certain soliecrs from the !louse of Commons
who held bitua!ions under the Crown. lint the Act
slid not exclude the ;lemhers then sitting ; it
only went to disqualify such safseers from being
eligible aft. rwards. But what did they du with re-
gard to persons holding judicial ollices in Scotland in the
early part of the reign of George the First They ex-
&soled the Barons of the Exchequer au-I the lArls
Justiciary of Scotland for the future. it regulation had
been tamale by the Act of Union, and an Act passed de-
claring what percons were disqualified from sitting, hut
the other of Master in Chancery was not included. The
application of such a rule as the I.r sent would he most
unjust towards Ireland, and especially towards the Ale•
tropolis. They felt the necessity of having some person
of professional habits to represent them, from the pecu-
liar nature of their trade, but there was the utmost ditfii-
eulty in prei ailing upon professional Gentlemen to relan•
qua their bassinets and undertake the eloty. If the
!louse 01°,111 be of opinion, that the principle contended
for by the Hon. ana Learned lientietuan was correct.
he hoped they would at least foi!o'.v the example of our
ancestors, and adopt a prospective law.
Mr. A BERCROM 111 E sail, that the proposition of
his Ilms. and Learned Frie:'d was, that the two
were iticompatihle. Ili. ult..pet was nut to remove 31r.
Ellis from Parliament, hut to e.tablish a principle of the
utmost importance. No injury could he visited on his
constituents by the motion, for the motion was. not that
he should he removed fromParliantent, but removed from
the office of Master in Chancery. :Jr. Hiss was a ..isplge
and he had wilfully unilertatlon to Lectatne a Member of
Parliamea They were told, hat Mr. Eine had three
Colleagnes, who smiertook to ;,:•rf:wits his duty while
absent: that arrangement it cras tr.:o, might secure one
rote against the Catholics, in:t what would become of
tiae arrangement, if other Mesteri iu Chancery were to
become as ambitious as Mr. Eliis was of Parliamentary
distinction? If Mr. gliis was so ntaxious to serve his
eonstituents, lac Io! How h fine opi:ort unity fur
Isis seal, by making his cleetion i l tl.e case, and giving
up his office to retain his seat. .
Mr. BROWNLOW hoped Gra the feelings of the
House would resist the prapoeilion as a granaitons
cruelty to In indiridnal. An attempt had been made
in the emirate of the last Scs•i an, to embody the name
principle in a Bill, without effect, and he saw Ito rea-
son why, if a Master in Chancery recooienenderl him-
self to the Citizens of Dublin, he Was nit as eligible to
represent them as any other man.
Lost! CASTLE REAGH !mi.!, he should divide the
snhject into three heads—first, as to the general expe.
diency of some regulation respecting the office of Mas-
ter in (Amery in Ireland ; secondly, as to the par-
ticular case of Mr. Ellis ; and thirdly, as to the si-
tuation in which the majority of the Misuse stood, who ,
had voted last year fur the Chancery Bill. With re-
gars! to the last, he had expressed his conearrente in
the clause for est-lusting the individual from Isis seat,
but not from his office; bat he haul never convidered
that be was bound.* paw by the House of bode' After
they hail rejected it, and to-do that by Aditrest Which
they had WWII to do bp! litiridotiam. That, lasteerli''.
Woold be to place the House in such an attitude, with

r r

respect is the larlsosaspesiolicefteestaCsi re. Hi
was ready to admit the grist issesgrettP et soy Iris&

judicial Olricer koldiag *at is skit House t &Ud luta

was his impression wises this ease was befitro sager
the consideration d that House; bat,. rate lUDs that
period, be had fogad that iii.. Eliisisaltnation &rimed

a special case; for, at that period k was Not aware
drat this gentleman had bought his Ace; paying me
loM a mum than >l or 10,0110/4 that at the time he made

this purchase he u•u not aware that his tenure et the

*lke yeah, exclude hint frost a seat in Parlitmeat t

nay. more, that when elected by the eitisetts of Deb-
lin, be had no reason to think himself inaligible to

that seat. Under there eiremostances, anal consider-

inn that there was less pregnant public neeenity fur
the exclusion of the Honourable and Learned Heinle-

man than Le had contemplated upon the first view of
the subject, he eonld not accede to the motion, al-
thongh he was ready to agree to any measure for ex-
cluding Irish judicial Whom. from that Hoes, is
future, excepting the particular ease of, Mr. Elks.
Here there was a loud cry f.r •

Mr. PLUNKETT, wht.s rose accordingly. The
Right Hinsourable Gentleman began by observing,
that the present saeourell much of a pessimist Motion t
and that therefore, from his respect for Mr. Ellis, he
should feel some difficulty in speaking.tspon it, if it
were not for the concluding observation of the Learn-
ed Gentleman himself, namely, that the present ques-
tion was much more important to the rights of his
constituents than to any feeliag or interest df his own.
Bat to this observation he would say, that the Learned
Gentleman ;night he deprived of his seat without any
loss either to himself or to them; for if he were a oind
Master in Chancery he could net be a erood Member
of Parliament. His own chararter, indeed, as well
as their interests, would be beet consulted by va-
eating either his seat or his place. As to the aresseseet„
that Masters in Ve.ncery were elieible to sit in that
Hew. because they were omitted in the Act of 1403.
which excluded certain Irish offer., lie maintained that
this argument had no validity for althouels the Irish
Judges were not ennmerattel in that act, wools% sty
one infer the monstrous idea that they could sit in
that (louse ? The Sight Honourable Grastiensan ex•
posed the fallacy of the resssoning., that this was
merely a question of privilege ; and alter describing
the duties whirls the Learned Gentletenn had to pe:-
form in his office in Ireland. eonsbiniog the descrir-
lion with a statement of his own tirclarati,,n heron-
& Committee of that Ilona', that Ise was ender the
necessity of attending those official desies nut testa
than ten hours a slay for the far greater part se
tie year, he concluded with repeating Isis reseed for
the Learned Gentleman, whose ineligibility es sit in
that lionise, he, (Mr. P.) stated publicly at the {vesting,
in Dublin. before his election—eliding, that he
thought the House .;self likely to declare him inrlieilsk,
not because he was in any respect ineompet..nt to
the duties of a Leeielatar, bat because be cosslil not
perform such duties in conjunction with those of
an Irish Master in Chancery—because, in a word,
the Learned Gentleman could not do insposaibilities.
—(Hear, hear.)
Dr. LUSIIINGTON, in his reply, stated, that he
took the words which he had imputed to the Noble
Secretary of State from the concurrent reports of all
the Journals he could lied, with reepect to what the
Noble Lord said when this question was before ander
the consideration of that House, those reports too
being continued by the testimony of several Members
' of that House. 1 he Noble Lord had, however, thneght
proper to deny those words ; but from this denial apt
use Noble Lord's change of opinion, he mast say, that
he should never no.sin allow himself to be wedded ta
any confidence in the declared opinion of the Not:ie
Lord, sonsiderite; the ingenuity with which he eon!!
change his opinion, and the Manner in which he meld
sews t that new lights broke In upon him to cell for
that chance. He saw, 111)1144W, that those new liglits
b.nite in also epee several Gentlemen, forthey were all
babes of grace. lint, notwithstanding the aberration
of the Noble Lord and his immediate adherents from
liteir former professed sentiments upon this subject,
he trusted that the. House would, in justice and irrta;:-
nity accede to Isis motion, and thus secure to the
suitors in the Irish Court of Chancery, that attention
whirls they hail a rillst to expert. At all events, he
was determined (however the Noble Lord might deerrt
Isis native. land) to do all the justice in Isis power to-
wards the very interesting and much-injured people of
that Country.
The [louse dis ides), and the numbers were—
For the motion.
Againit it...
klaj .64 fur the Minister
Dr. Ll'SlilNliTON gave notice of a motion for
Thstraday next, tar leave to bring in a Gill to dreier,•
pereee. leildin; certain high offices in Ireland ineligi-
hb-! to Nit in that :louse. He extended his notice tee:
road that point, its which the Noble Lord had declared
Isis disposition to acquiesce, in consequence of doubts
repressed to hint by the SolicitooGeneral with respect
to the eligibilisy of Irish Judges.
The other Orders of the Day Were then disposed of,
and the House tvijnarned at easily two o'clock.

The Earl of Fife. did not v on Wednesday last in
the 31inority aprxiast the Wiselie 4/sestion. Lurd
Duually yottA iti theAlajority.

,tour some days past a strong rnononr prevailed that
an extraurtlinary litatrA of Orttnance would be held at
Sheeiness, to incioire into the ilonses said to be com-
mitted in the Ordnance Departisent is that place.—
: The latter end of last week thresigontlesnen, ttro Coos-
missioners of the Ordnaore, medlar. !ifyird, the Rem-
'tar-, arrived there with u.siltarttir to nsilte such in
guides"; they hare commenced tin ttr Leiser, and it i 4
confidently reported that the thrit'pjinnipal officers In
the Ordnance thpartutent at that horde spsponded
...•
peadinz the inrecigaim
.. ilha
.to therefor,
cv
pursuing a very strict exandssatiotit: d tit is emelt.,
Lured that even the 'borough :01“611,411Por"sfrh will
nut escape the p-tietrating shuck. ' Shonitlike Parlia-
mentary labours of 31r, Hume Wide*: the. lopping of
of only some of the owlets esareatilari .hi time state.
the country will approve the atensitre..is the beide.%
of the people so loudly tali fps retitaiskaitat.—(Kert
Herold.) . .
. . ~.
Lait Monday night doe !lithos titifitiat Oilieers 11. f
' Seaford. -witted ai a ellirit ' Lettrislavoi Spirits hi
Ohr. Tire Om at epl ,a iii
ii ri!tiell lb Telilltatet illlitl.dtt:.. 'Sig
.. , atf e r -.21:
tharesehr •arell. ' 1.
hostillity ended in a feint. The Offik.....iillet-t...tier.
seisure in safety to the Craton) Bosse lit Nowharea.