The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-06-20 00:00:00

TIIE QUEEN.

'far Earl of Livilaroot..—My Lords, upon several
e.“ions I have of late had to move your Lordships
t•• postpone the meeting of the Secret Committee ap-
pointed, in pursuance of his Majesty's Message, res.
p-eting charges of which we are all aware, on the
..wool that discussion and explanations were going
•••,. pending whirl) it would not be expedient to enter
the consideration of the papers romusimicateil
t. uo the Crown. It is with regret I have now to state,
ti contrary to the expectation entertained, at least
:• 3 time, by myself and by others, and 1 may sa)
nerally by bet!' Houses of Parliament and the routs-
' that discussion and those explanations have failed
ii producing the desired result, and (laying upon the
t.,bl.- a bundle of papers) I am commanded by Isis
Maje-ty to lay these papers upon the table, contain-
the details of that negotiation. As in all cases
papers arr laid upon the table by command of
th • I.rown, they are in a course of printing, and they
still he ready for delivering to the Members of the
lloase to-morrow morning. Your I.ordshirs are as are
Ciao the meeting of the Secret Committee, to whom
t:.e papers communicated by his Majesty's Message
;re inferred, stands fixed for to-morrow, hut as
Limes, and candour, Noble Lords ought to have an
Ippoituaity of considering the papers I have now laid
ti.:on the table, previous to the-sneetiug of the Secret
l'ilisaiittre, in order that they may be enabled to judge
!i ct her there is any thing in these papers that ought
to ineuence them, either in still further postponing the
vv:cting of the Committee, or in adhering to their ori-
g:::ai vote, or in any other manner. I therefore now
wave, that the Order for the meeting of the Secret Com-
• to-morrow, be discharged, and that the Secret
4 olimitte.• du, instead thereof, meet on-Friday.
This motion was put to the vote and agreed to.
The Marquis of LA NS DOWN .•••••I wish to ask the No-
ble Earl, whether it is his intention to found any♦ pro-
ceeding upon the papers which lie has just laid upon
Cie tabi.e by coraisand of his Majesty ?
The Earl of Livearoot..—l have no difficulty, my
lAnds. in saying that it is not my intention to fonnil
• ) fir:weeding upon these papers. It will be for
y.tui Lordship. to judge of their contents, and it n ill
ho conspeteat for any Noble Lord to make any motion
respecting them that be shall deem expedient, or any
tuotian as to the further proceeding or not of the Se-
cud C uninitter.

Marquis of LAysnowx.--1f I understand the
Noble Karl he does not mean to found any proceeding
•, ,sn these papers; hut it surely must follow, from the
con.luct of the Noble Earl upon this point, that his
opinion is made up, that the consideration of these
wirers will form no ground for farther postponing the
meeting of the Secret Committee.
Ihe Earl of Ltrsoroot..—My Lords, I have deli-
vered no such opinion, nor do I mean to do it. It
will be for your Lordships to consider, whether there
is asy thing in these papers that ought to have the
effect or "not, of further postponing the meeting of the
rinntuittee.

The Earl (taxv.—l cannot avoid, my Lords, in.
trading upon your Lordships a few obser :diens upon
the very exttaordinary and unprecedented course of
proceeding which has been resorted to with regard to
if& owe by his Majesty's Ministers. They, in the
first instance, brought down a Message from the King,
making certain charges against her Majesty, the Queen
(',abort. The papers communicated with the Royal
Me#Asge, his Majesty's Ministers move to refer to a
Sec oft Committee. and it is clear• that they had not
then lti rnntdliiplatiun any delay in the meeting of that
Setif.* Committee. What circumstances subsequently
hAppned, we are not permitted to know in any autho-
rised sh ; but there can be no doubt, nor was•it
scrupled toape be stated, that the delay afterwards pro-
rewsi witk regard to the meeting, is to be attributed to
Coe course of proceeding adopted by the House of
c.mitoons ; n mode of acting which is certainly di-
redly contrary to that which has always hitherto been
the ;Idea this House, which never permitted itself to
b. in any way governed by the proceedings of any
assembly. We are mow, however, informed by
a Communication from the Crown, with an expression
of regret, that She segaciation which 'volt commenced
:•nhoequent ta the origiaal Message has failed, and the
Yore extraordinary proceeding has been resorted to of
Cor,twing down a number of papers upon the table for
the Huta to du what they please with, but with an
intimation that no preteeeding is intended to be founded
upOn theft Jsy kisMajesty's Ministers. This, 1 dodo.
lair, unpreeedentad, It being the constant 1
whore any causaannications are specially wade

- two Huttses ,
nient, anal this is roam' which( k Welters sp..
-Lordships to resist- It is, indeed, oonsistest w.ih r
whole conduct, of which it has been the uniform* 4.
ject to throw off responsibility, wherever they possibly
could, upon Parliament: bat it remains for Parliament'
brolly to resist a course of conduct which is so utterly
Inconsistent with what ;night to be the conduct of re-
sponsible Ministers Of the Crown. It is for them to
eay what is the proceeding they propose to institute,
and not to throw upon this I louse the task of consider-
ing what is the course that ought to be pursued. His
Majesty's Ministers must have made up their minds as
to the contents of these papers, anal as to their effect,
with a view to the proreeding or not of the Secret
Committee, anal undonlitediy the more manly and
Feet course for them to pursue would he to say at once
what they propose and what they mean. As it is, we
are left completely in the dark, the Secret Committee
is postponed will t any avowed abject, and the whole
conduct of Ministers leads only to lower the digoltr
and character of this House, and place it in a situation
1111411plerial highly disgraceful.
hnv.—My Lords, after what
has been slid by the Noble Earl, I feel it incumbeat
upon lime to alhirrSa a few words to your Lordships
upon the siihjrct which now occupies your attention.
To the charge, of this proceeding bring unprecedented,
my colleagues and myself must plead guilty, if it ran
be shown that there is any precedent of a similar rise.
Hut when it is known, as it must be, that Ministers
could derive no light from precedent (there being none
of any similar case), stilt only sumo small gr •rings
from analogy, it is -itrely too much to stigmatise the
proceeding as unprecei!enivil, as if it weir a grievous
charge against the 3Liiisters of the (*town, that they
have no precedent to folliaw. In this point of view,
the oti!v proper course that they t)oug,ht themselves
justified in adopting, was to advise his 3lNjesty to
consult both flimsy.% of Parliament, as to the proceed-
ing that ought to be adopted. Anil it surely ought
not to be matter of objecti )))) iu this I louse, the blvinhers
of which are the hereditary councillors of the Crown,
or, in the other llonsc, the Members of Which are
noire peculiarly the representatives of the people, that
their ;silt ire is as: by the Crown, as to a proceeding
so entirely novel in the history of the country. 'the
Noble Earl, who says that the postponement of the
meeting of the Secret Committee was urged on the
Krona,' of n bat occurred in another Once, will allow
inc to .ay, that he was out presets( during the former
proceedings regarding this .object, and that that was
no: the gru 44444 I upon which the postponenieut took
place, it being distinct.ly stated by my Noble Prised,
that discussion and explanali.oi were proceeding, and
that therefore it became expciiient to postpone the
meeting of the Secret Committee. That this negotia-
tion has failed, is matter of regret to all, hot surely,
under such circumstances, the only course to he
adopted, is that which has hero pursued, to ttttt tined-
eate to Parliament tbe result of that negoldaticn, aisl4
leave it to them I. say. whetter is revokes any pro—
reeding to he adopted with regard to the uteetieg or
not of the Secret Committee as originally deterudeed
upon.

Lord IlioAsso.--It appears to me, my Lords, that
when the Noble Earl who has just down, seems to
triumph in the idea, in answer to my Noble Friend,
that there is no precedent for suds a Cafe as the pre-
sent, lie forgets that it is not exactly the form of a
precedent that is to he looked to, but the reason of
the thing. Beason, then, study require. that the re-
sponsible Ministers of the Crown should be ready to
state to Parliament. ni their responsibility, what
course of proceeding they deem it expedient should be
adopted, and not that they •honld endeavour to shift
and shuffle off that responsibility upon Parliament it-
self. What has been the consequence of this vacillat-
ing polity of the Ministere ?—that this Honer, I must
say with my Noble Friend, has been ;dared in a dis-
graceful situation. We were told that our dimity re-
qnited that we should complete our proceeding by
nominating the Secret Committee; hot what, after the
repeated postponements of the meeting of that Com-
mittee, becomes of our dignity now ? The Noble
Earl who has just sat down, has said that the
postponement of the meeting of the Committee
was not in enlisequence of the poweedinp in the
Hotter of C ors ; hut what are the facts? On
the second day of this proceeding, a Noble Baron
took the manly and direct course of moving to post-
pone the ballot till- the Cotnniittee, on the express
ground of what had weltered in the interval (name-
ly, in the Mouse of Commons), tending to excite a
hope of conciliation, and what did the Noble Earl at
the head of his Majesty's Councils say ? That he had
no information 1111011 the subject, that he did not be-
lieve there was any prospect of conciliation ; and yet
the Noble Earl proposed to postpone the mealy of
the Committee; whirls postponement cause, in fact, to
the saner point as the motion of the Noble Baron. 'Io
what then are we to attribute the postponement, ex-
cept to the krii or ledge of what had passed in the !louse of
C mons, and the wish to await for the further pro-
ceeding of that Mouse ? to any argument of not
allowing the contents of the papers in the mean time
to be known to the Secret Committee, it is quite ab-
surd; becanse the ballot has placed six Lords upon
that Committee, who, being part of the Administra-
tion. must lone previously knowu all the contents of
them ; and see. my Lords, to wind suspicion time con-
duct of Ministers upon this occasion leads. compared
with their conduct upon other occasions. When we
have haul tireen Bags against the people there has
been no delicacy on the part of Ministers in statiag at
once all the contents of the papers, though sealed up
in a bag. and anticipating all the strong moNsures that
it has been pretended were rendered necessary by the
disclosures thus made. But here we hay, a Omen
Bag; about the contents of which the utmost reserve
mid delicacy are to he observed; nut • word is to be
disclosed of them, and the Mouse is to be placed in the
singular situation of entailing, as it were, its owe de-
cision of appointing a Committee to roasider the cam
tents of a Bag, and thee refusing to unseal the Bag,
thus keeping the Committee like Jndges atiarea44 in
air, waiting for the vase that Is to'lle. laid before
them.. The whole of -ibis- proceediep I. it:Met-tap k

.0 upon the subject,
at the Noble Ea►l on the other side, un the
_.one-sloy of this proceeding, for postponing the
meeting of the Committee ; and we t.erefore still come
to this, notwithstanding what bas bent said about the
dignity bf the House, that our conduct was in fact go-.
vented by the proceedings of the Hunse of Commons.
The Earl of llianowne, in explanation, denied that
the proceedings of the House of Commons had any
influence upon the postponement of the meeting of the
Committee, which arose from the impression that an
opening ought to be left for couriliation.
The Earl Of DARSLUT maintained that not the
slightest reason appeared from any thing that passed
it, the interval, between the first and second day of
this proceening, for postponing the meeting of the
Committee, except what had passed in the House of
Commons; and this, he contended, whatever might be,
said on the other side, was the real reason fur the post-
ponement; and that the object of the further post-
ponement now woos, still to wait to see what course the
House of Commons would i erne.
The Karl of 1.10 re,(11., in explanation. contended
that it appeared to be the general wish, evt•n OS aims
first day of this procredinr, that mesons should he
lou nil , if possible, to avoid the painful necessity of
carrying un this investigation. As to what he said,
regarding the prospect of conciliation, on the second
day's proceedings, he eenied that his wor:11 here the
import Attributed to them by the Noble Baron on the
o•hcr side, namely, that he -aid there was no prospect
of (.m1..0661,11; all he conveyed was, that he load no
special information to groom! any opinion upon the
subject.

The Earl Gary, in explanation with regard to pre-
cedent, obser%ed, that hr never meant to say there was
any precedent of a case like the present, but what be
meant to contend was—that there was au precedent of
any papers I ...oininnicated to the House from the
Crown, referring to and pending any proceeding be-
fore the Ilan-e, upon %%hid, snug proceeding was not
founded he the Ministers of the Crown.
The Earl of DARNULY repeated his former o'iection
to the course of proceeding. _

Lord Hett.t,asti, in explanation. stated that the
ground of his ohjecti ~,, was, that the Noble Earl had
laid papers before the House without giA ing them any
reason to suppose to what conclusion they might lead.
Lord Darer: oh 4, that the objections of the
Noble 3larsois (Lanstiosto) on a former night were
directed against the concurrence of the proceedings in
both Huuses. Ile himself then thought, end he was of
the same opinion still. that great ditliculty nun'd be
found to arise frosts such a male of prureeding ; for
though a Nuble Lord of high legal authority had
given a distinct opit i i iiii on the suhjert, it was illipols-
, !Whir to say whether the House of l'outisions might nut
litter from him, and whether, while their Lurilships
resolved to proceed iu one way, the ilouse of Com iiiii ns
might not proceed in another. Hut the object he had
_ _

its rising was this—to know from his Majesty's Muria-
/4es, what eirece the papers now had before the Now
might be exp►cted to have according to their view of
them. the Noble Karl, he thought, was bound to
state his view, and then the Committee might proceed
as was intended to-morrow. lie Intel by the art of lay-
ing the papers before the House expressed, though not
avowed, an op' •o n, that they c.mtained matter upon,
which the judgment of the Home ought to be pro-
nounced ; it was therefore that he wished to know his
opinion as to the result they were likely to have. He
wished also to know from the Noble Earl, wheoher
those papers contained merely the correspondence of
last week, or whether they also embraced any previous
correspondence, or communications upon which that
correspondence w•as founded.
The Earl of litviairooot. said, that the usual way of
answering. such a question was, to desire that the list
of papers should he read.
The Clerk was about to read the list, when
Lord HoLLE reminded the House that the question
of adjournment was before thrum.
Lord HOLLAND said be should move that ►he papers
be read, in order to see if it was proper that they should
agree to the adjoin unseat.
The Earl of LI vaaruoi. observed that the questions
were distinct.
Lord HOLLAND maintained the right of any Peer to
call for the trailing of papers lying on the toile which
might have a connection with the question in debate--
the reading of an Act of Parliament fur instance.
_ _

Earl Seines* said, there was tau question regularly
before the House, but the Noble Earl haying laid
papers on the table by the command of his Majesty,
whirl] must come shortly under consideraf , the re-
pilaw way was to read the whole of the papers. Not
one of their Lordships, with the exception of Minis-
ters, knew what they cootained, so that he themaght that
.the-tiNes might at lenet be read: -- • •
Lord Hou.s said, that if the sense of the House was
against his motion he certainly should not press it.
He had moved it on perceiving that thbre was no ques.
tioa before the House.
The Loan eillAkcELLnit said, the only motion before
them was the question of adjournment. flow' fat the
speeches which theit Lordships had heard bore ally
reference to that question, it was for the House itself
to decide, but for his otra part, be should say that he
was not able to diseoerr any. Atty Noble Lord might
introduce topics', the application of which it *amid be
dillealt Ni see until he bad made it himself.
'1 he MR' thew read the Mira of !hp papi.rs,,yrkicit
were as follow t— I;
1. A Copy Of orLetter tram her Majeat3l &Qum* fo'firia
Earl of Liverpool, dated the 9th.
3. A I,:opy of his Lordahipl mower. of the mug date.
3. A Copy of a Letter from ths Queen to the Made Liver-
pool, dated 140 10th.
es A Copy of bis Lordship's answer, dated the
11. A Copv of a teetertWou **Queen to the lbsillsi
fine-
pool. datodtheillb
4 A Copy of hb Loodship's assurer. dated *0 WM. ma
compante‘frith o,lg!te to ha Majesty's law wilvber, Mr.
Brush gka m. •
7. A. Calm of Mr. BrowAhare mow* fd tk Part of Li-
verpool. relative to the oppoilltmeat ofierbitaltdre.
R;l4=6_l;,_th° Irsellrow at Mk Jamas'irmisuato.
91 MO settling goataremie et M. James
10. protl. a/ the Mini 40110fewleest
11. Pmta oniwFbasrth eoeferraee at Ift.,
le. Moue! Seth Seth estaherseta at Me ran
The Karl of 1.4.11,11110AL1 wished to %mow whether'

w

is the intention of Ministers to lay before the
any previous communirations on the same Nil.
The House had been told, at an early oak, of
proceedings, that the utmost efforts had bets
and now papers were brought dissea ouch
ought in justice to contain all that had passel. t•
••
try
it maxim, which even, day's experience
that those who judged on a partial view nsustjnap
perfectly, see that if any thing bad Nisei use,
cedently to the papers now eiminotnicated, it was 44
ish and vain to think of arriving at any correct deter
ruination un those imperfect documents. The Neck
must have the whole of the information heron. it is
order to come to a right opinion. The Noble 143 j
had seen the whole, and was c:ep lisle of reconsmeaslia•
Mme proceeding. They had only seen a detach;
part, and were consequently incapable of judging is
any proceeding.
The Earl of Lirgneotot. said a few words in a let
tone of voice, in which we understood him to stab,
that there was hut one paper of d:ete anterior N ti,
9th, and that he should feel no difficulty in comm.
Meeting it.
Lord ENAKIN C.—My Lords, another difficulty has
occurred to use this moment sin the subject of ffin,
papers, on hearing the titles if them read. Thera,-
pear to be the minutes of the n..gotiations whiehboi,
taken place between his Majeey's Ministers and lit
Queen, to avert, if possible. any public proms/dint,
but with which, fur the plainest reason in the worlii,
it is most elation, we can have nothing at all to cis.
The case is shortly this :---The Noble Earl, by tie
King's command, laid upon the table papers contais•
lint elsarges of a heinous but highly delicate nature
agaistst her Majesty, and desired our counsel ea tie
subject, i. c. whether any and what proceeding might
to be taken upon them, and fur that purpose we
pointed a Secret Committee to examine them, arida
day was appointed for its meeting, but which tras
postponed with general consent, on some prosper!,
though unknown to as, of au arrangement which
would render any inquiry unnecessary, and now the
Noble Earl lays this negotiation before us., obvious's,
though no distinct questioo is put upon it, weak oar
advice as to whether it should put an end to the in-
quiry, or justify Its going on. And hew ran se p—
ale judge of this? I take it for granted that the
papers rontaiu the expectations or demands, an one
side or the other, for ending all differences; but her
0111 we judge of the reasonableness of the one ors{
the other, without knowing how they stand in 'mists.
fart lf, instead of being in Parliament. her Majost
die Queen had consulted use, and said she ha& bedlam'
•112 al' her rights of coming to, or going from tkip
vomit ry, and of being restored to the Liturgy, I Awn
slower, that I crud; give no advice, without know*
Whether there was any, and what proof of miscoasiut
against her; and I must make the same answer to for
King; and how can I properly, whilst in thiSitsie if
ignorance, ist• asked any opinion by Ministers, els
know the whole case? Let it not be thought that I toy
this from a desire of investigation ;I wilds either
but to Jo my duty, presunaiog hummisee 1111 gains
established. As to the propriety or Glom of apple
lug a Secret Committee, it cannot now be the genie
We have already appointed one. fill half dunghill
Illegal or uneonstitational I should have *poi;
but 1 thought at the tone, and still tbiak,orhenrio,
because it is to exassise Whether there be say raft
fur Parliament to proceed upon. which is in bar Ih.
jestv's favour, and nut to proceed against her oar*
since the proceedings, if determined on, most hops'.
lie ; that, however, is beside the question, SS dlf
House has given judgment; but with regard to Is
papers, for the short reason I have given I sever till
act on them ; Crum curiosity I may read them, WI
will give auy opinion cone:ruing them.
The House then ',gunned.
HOUR} OF COMMONS. MONDAY, Jean IR
new

A new writ was ordered for the borough of Meek
Geld. in the room of Lord Iluthans, who had nark kis
ekction fur another place.
Mr. F. Lewis laid on the table a petitko flume*
veral freeholders of the county of Herb, praying tier
proper 11121 e he allowed for tal.ing the poU before t►
return be made.
Lord 1101.:NTCUARLES gave notice, that oa tb,JS
of Juno next, he should submit a motion to Oa
House relative to the conduct of the Irish louder
Excise, in nut making a return of papers pareellit.
the orders of that House.

air. WeirraaN laid on the table a petitioa flaw fir
parishes of the county of Esse:. in favour of tirefda.
chestet Sessions Bill.
/I ILI T.% it V DISTURBANCE-48p' Nretaw
observed, that it was his intention to bent asked 1
question of the Noble Secretary of War, Itad he bees
in his place. As that Noble Lord was ablest, hr
should beg to ask his Majesty's Judge .Adrecate tire
saute question. lie (Lord Nugent) had horsed the
_thelute_tlistutbutce, amongst a port* obi* lilidia
Was attributed to i'he failure in issaiag a eerie=
. a(alluwauee which was called .1 riot masey.4
lotting that a very coualrieralrle allows," beih 10
101101114 eild pay was made to soldiers, he mode tot we
lAmfeet the propriety of any tractive's wises they
zoo
-spots for duty in ally service.
1-liat if Limy were ordered to march foe
no such iseressed rate of allowsnee wee either
or expected, by what rule 2114941 d it be grantee
employed against their hdlowoitioens ? As s
imporiaset questions stead foe disratesien that
Await not enlarge epee the point at preemie.
pdibutine hear her his. biejemy's Judge Advecoul.
-kiwis 'hod heels the practice of the Otto--
alie.inereseed att..—

?"--ifirse)
Mr. Santini' said he shook! be glad to give
Noble lard a distinct answer, bat he was Doily able
proses' to state, that each arnorgensents were.
by the lieeretary at War.
TIN -11,000,41011/. Amseity sad Watch and
Bids wows read* *WIWI* and posed.
DUNDALK.--414 Writ was orierai
borough of Desdalir, AM moo of J. Beat.
wise. *we hisabontlens, isuipmil• Orr
fiseitriorar a 1 Maiwart. • "
Mr. Of. A..TiviLost oillitrve4, 4114 it Oa
intention to tutored' that *Won a preresitioP
Home relat es loin. malls* jarieillaties. ler
the prersere of batidels be must defer it. 111110 P

TI s/ ATV Sr
fr t C • f• or
• -441 • .
st cif thr ilwafe. lo the plea that an it W3l
up t t .az rs ro I wn• itii 1 . f s expressed that knot i•pering House
.ertrieut o 'er t t Urowii.liti Ito. 'be 1 Cr conciliation, it limit be in the reeol- jret.
tikis-iastattre. to atteaseLla..ithULALL•wponsiklaity. Lesions sof roar isordships that soritintr was saisi-isy those
1 from their iri.o shou'olers to the two)junses,or auk Noble I.ord spun the subject, prey to the pro- made,