The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-11-11 00:00:00

Mr. PKRICER said the Mayor was perfectly correct ; but
at the same time if he allowed one gentleman to state his
reasons why the two individuals proposed should be added
to the Education Committee, he hoped he would also hear
the other side of the question, namely, the reasons why
they should not be admitted upon that committee. He (Mr.
Parker) rose then for the purpose of opposing the amend-
ment of Mr. Aikin ; and he did it on this ground-
(Cries of " Order," and " Mr. Bushell.")
Mr. SHEPPARD said he should oppose Mr. Aikin's
amendment. (Cries of " Order.")
The TOWN-CLERK said he conceived the question whether
the committee consisted of ten or twelve to be a question
which ought to be disposed of before the nomination of the
members. The irregularity now was in this, that the propo-
sition was, not that the committee should consist of the ad-
ditional number of two, but that two gentlemen by name
should be added to the committee. If that motion were
carried the effect would be that those two gentlemen would
be elected. The course of the council had been to proceed to
the election of each individual separately ; against the nomi-
nation of one gentleman another gentleman had been nomi-
nated, and after that the council came to a determination.
The Court of Queen's Bench had allowed another course.

It had allowed the whole number to be proposed at once in a
very late case ; but in this council the course had been as he
had stated. If the motion were reduced into the form that
two members be added, abstaining from naming them,
there would then be no objection.
Mr. EARLE begged to put one question, as it seemed there
were some gentlemen anxious to make speeches on this sub-
ject. If it were agreed that they might propose any particu-
lar gentleman, he supposed that any member who was anxious
to make a speech might state why that gentleman was or was
not eligible ? If so, the whole discussion came to the same
thing.

Mr. SHEPPARD rose, but there being a cry for Mr. Bushell
to proceed, he gave way.
Mr. Bynum, said, that so far from feeling any regret at
having been checked by the Mayor, he was glad at it, because
he was persuaded that his worship would, in his new office, fully
carry out the principle of impartiality throughout the whole
period during which he might occupy the chair. The council
had, on many occasions, had reason to regret thatkentlemen had
been suffered to deviate from the subject at issue, and that
much valuable time had been lost in consequence : and there-
fore he thanked the Mayor for having checked him, when he
considered he was deviating from the question. He was
going on to throw out that which Mr. Earle had just thrown
out. Suppose the first name had been read, Mr. Aikin
would have got up and said, " I propose Mr. Hugh
Hornby:" a discussion would have arisen on that, and,
therefore, discussion must follow, even if they did not enter
upon the general question of education, but confined
themselves to giving reasons for, and against the
particular nomination. When he was interrupted he
was shewing what the duties of committees were, and
he was going on to show that the duty of the Education
Committee was to carry out the principle of education in the
corporation schools, as laid down by the council; therefore,
to appoint any gentleman who would rather oppose than
assist in the carrying out of that principle would be a perfect
anomaly. (Hear.) The first thing, if gentlemen wished to
change the system, must be to propose that it be altered in
the council ; and then the council, if the change were made,
would be prepared to alter the constitution of the committee;
but until that was done, the course to be adopted was, to put
upon the committee only those members who were in favou r
of the principle now adopted. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BLACKBURN said, he felt the extreme inconvenience
of entering upon a lengthened discussion of the general sub-
ject, and he did not intend to embark upon it, but to state in
a very few words the reasons why he differed entirely from
the view taken by Mr. Bushell. He did not agree with the
statement that there would be inconsistency in either Mr.
Hornby or himself accepting the appointment. The objection
that Mr. Hornby and himself had to the course pursued with
regard to education was a negative objection. They did not
object to what was actually and positively done in the way of
instruction in the schools. They never did object to the
children of the Established Church being instructed in their
own religious persuasion ; they disapproved of nothing going
on in the schools, so far as he knew, with that object, but
they objected to--

Mr. HODGSON.—Is this in order? Is not this going into
the whole question? (Hear, hear.)
The MAYOR.—Mr. Bushell has stated his reasons why he
thinks the course pursued in the nomination of the committee
is a right one; and, as 1 understand, Mr. Blackburn is now
showing that it is a wrong one.
Mr. EARLE.—I-lear, hear ! Bravo !
Mr. BLACKBURN, in continuation, sair), his party did not
object to what was going on in the schools in the way of in-
struction ; and all they now wanted was some addition to
secure the admission of Roman Catholic children. They
did not object, and for himself he could honestly say he did
not object, and never did object, during the time he had a
share in the management of the schools,. to the children of
the Established Church having every advantage for their own
instruction. He defied any man to contradict him upon that
point. There was, therefore, no inconsistency in either Mr.
Hornby, or in himself, accepting the appointment; but,
then, if his appointment were to be taken as an agreement
with the present system, without any addition to that sys-
tem, he would not take it. Conservative gentlemen who dis-
approved of Roman Catholics being taught Roman Catholic
doctrines, could not agree with the late system, and therefore,
they were never asked to do so—but the distinction was
marked now, and there was no reason why the liberal party
should not with propriety be placed upon the present Edu-
cation Committee. He (Mr. Blackburn) would not go on
the committee for the purpose of obstructing what they were
inclined to do ; he had no objection to what was going on ;
his principle was, that all should have education, and, there-
fore,
he never opposed or offered any objection to education
in the principles of the Established Church, believing that it
would be unjust to attempt anything of the sort. He did
not make these remarks for the purpose of being on the com-
mittee, because, whether on it or not, he would originate a
discussion at the proper time and place, which, he trusted,
might lead to the adoption of some plan that would meet the
concurrence of all parties, without obliging any to relinquish
their conscientious conviction of what was right.

Mr. PARKER said, the arguments of Mr. Blackburn were,
so far as they went, very able for his. side of the question ;
but it must be remembered, that the Education Committee
was not so much a committee of business as a committee of
principle. If , they, as conservatives and members of the
Established Church, compromised their principles for the sake
of expediency, they betrayed the trust reposed in them by
their constituents—(hear, hear) ;—and he trusted, therefore,
that the conservative majority of that council would never be
led away by such arguments as they had just heard. He bad
a very strong objection both to Mr. Blackburn and Mr.
Hornby being placed upon the committee on account of their
principles; but what, he would ask, had turned Mr. Black-
burn out of Lime-street Ward but his " liberal " views
upon this question ?
Mr. EARLE.—Strong drink. (Hear, and cries of "order.")
Mr. BLACKBURN.—Money turned the out of Lime-street.
(Great cries of " order.")
The MAYOR suggested that the course which was now
being taken was not the best suited for fair discussion. The
council wasnot now considering what had turned one man out
or put another man in. (Cheers.)
Mr. EARLS—Strong beer has put them in. (Cries of
" order.")
The MAYOR thought it would be found that the subject
stood upon firmer and higher grounds than these; and he
trusted it would be dealt with accordingly.
Mr. PARKER said, the worthy little alderman on his left,
(Mr. Earle) had alluded to strong drink having been the
means of putting the Conservatives in. He hoped the
Mayor would call that gentleman to order.
The MAYOR: I am sure the business of the council would
be much benefitted if such expressions were avoided.—
(Hear, hear.) .

•
Mr. PARKER hoped that he might now be allowed to state
his objections to the two gentlemen named being on the
committee. The appointments on both the Finance and Im-
provement Comwitttees had met with the approbation of all
parties. and the appointments on the Education Com-
mittee alone had met with opposition. But although he stood
there to give them his opinion on the subject, he also, he
hoped, represented the wishes of his constituency, because
the feeling oat of doors was, that they were to have an Edu-
cation Committee based on protestant principles, and com-
posed exclusively of members on the conservative side of the
question. (Hear, hear,) He repeated that the matter was
one of principle, and not of business. He hoped, therefore,
that there would be no talk of compromise on this important
question, because he was satisfied it was the feeling of the
town that the system as now pursued be carried out by the
conservative party, if they were to exist as a party. (Hear,
hear.) With these impressions he would sit down opposed
to either Mr. Hornby or Mr. Blackburn, being on the Edu-
cation Committee.
Mr. HODGSON said he should not attempt to go into the
general question now, because he could clearly foresee that
there would be ample opportunity afforded of discussing it
again and again. (Hear.) He rose to give what he thought
was a contradiction to the gentleman who had first risen on
the subject. That gentleman stated it had been invariably
the practice to admit a portion of their opponents in the
council upon the various committees. Now, it was singular
that that gentleman should not, upon so important a subject,
have been better informed before he made the declaration to
the council, because, instead of the invariability to which he
referred, the fact was that with regard to this particular
committee (the Education Committee) a list was given in,
consisting of fifteen radicals—(hear, hear)—with an express
declaration on the part he (Mr.. Hodgson) believed of the
chairman of that committee that " he regretted he could not
include one conservative on it—(hear)—and the more so as
the leaders of that party, Sir R. Peel and the Duke of Wel-
lington, had given it their approbation, though not one who
could do so had yet found his way into the council." The
15 radicals were then appointed. (Hear.) It was surprising
that any member should so entirely have overlooked this fact,
but it would appear still more surprising when he named the
gentleman who had proposed the committee in question, and
made the observations just referred to—it was no less than
Mr. Blackburn himself. (Loud cries of " hear, hear," from
the conservatives.) He (Mr. Hodgson) bad procured the
extract of the gentleman's speech from the STANDARD, the
Mail, and the Mercury of the 12th of November, all of which
were in substance the seine, and he would doubtless be cor-
rected if he were wrong. It was very singular that the gen-
tlemen on the radical side should so suddenly change their
views of liberality, but, Whilst wishing to carry on all discus-
sion with the utmost courtesy, he could not see or under-
stand the reasoning of Mr. Blackburn, that the circumstances
were now changed. Though he (Mr. Blackburn) said he
ap-
proved of what had been done, he only approved so far that
he might introduce something which he called " additions,"
else that would make all the things now done objectionable
as part and parcel of an unsound system. The Education
Committee did not exclude the Roman Catholics. (Hear.)
It was not true. (Hear, bear.) They offered the Bible to the
Roman Catholics. They offered them Scriptural education
without sectarianism. (Hear, hear.) But the Roman Catho-
lics could not be taught except out of the Douay version
with their own objectionable notes; and, though the com-
mittee might be permitted to give instruction to the other
children not out of the Douay, they could not be black and
white at the same time. (Hear, hear.) They could not
allow the sound and the unsound to go on, pari passu. He
would ask the medical man upon this point whether corrup-
tion and incorruption would do well to continue in the same
body? (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He believed that Mr.
Blackburn and Mr. Hornby, though erroneous, advocated
their views with sincerity and ability; but he trusted the
conservative party would support this cause upon the strength
of immutable principle. (Cheers.) He regretted that any-
thing hadfallen from the chair on the subject of education.
He must say he deeply regretted it. (Hear, hear.) He
therefore opposed the appointment of either Mr.i Blackburn
or Mr. Hornby, distinctly saying that it was not through any
discourtesy. (Hear.)
Mr. BLACKBURN begged to explain. Mr. Hodgson had
just quoted that he said "he regretted he could not propose
any conservative member upon the committee ; " but what
was the reason of his regret ? Not that he was unwilling to
place them upon the committee, but because he knew they
would not serve upon it. That was the ground of his regret.
(Cries of " Oh, oh! ") It was so, indeed.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—The fact is we would not serve.
Mr. BLACKBURN.—Gentlemen were asked to serve and
they refused.
Mr. HODGSON.—I never was asked to serve.

Mr. BLACKBURN.—No, you never were asked.
Mr. EARLE said he did not wonder at that gentleman (Mr.
Hodgson) not being asked to serve ; and he thought it was
extremely to be regretted that his name was placed upon the
list on this occasion. lie thought so, because the time was
come when the government of the country looked upon this
question in a very different point of view. (Cries of " Question
and order." He was in order. He appealed to the Mayor,
who had a brother in office, and therefore knew, no doubt,

whether the government of the country were not in favour
of a more liberal style of education than hitherto had existed ?
The MAYOR said he knew nothing about it.
Mr. EARLE, in continuation, said there was a clause in
the Poor Law Act, which authorised Roman Catholic child-
ren to be taught in the workhouses. Would they then pre-
vent the funds of the Corporation from being employed in
the same manner that the parochial funds were employed
under the sanction of government? (Cry of " Oh, no.")
Oh, no ! He said, oh, yes. He thought Mr. Hornby and
Mr. Blackburn would do honour to the committee. He
thought they would not be chosen ; but the gentleman who
had spoken last, had always a shot in his pocket for the,ra-
dicals, though he was one of them once, and had not even a
fragment of it remaining. (Cries of " Order.") By the
old paper he had brought out it seemed he must have come
prepared with a shot ; it was an old paper, so old indeed,
that he might have had his snuff wrapped in it for the last
six months. (Order.)
Mr. COPELAND robe to order, and protested against these
attacks upon Mr. Hodgson.
Mr. EARLE.—Mr. Hodgson is always rapping at us, and
I will always rap at him. He should let us alone. (Cries
of " Order.")
Mr. HODGSON.—I have made no rap, but if the gentleman
chooses to bark from his tub at the length of his chain, let
him bark ! (Cheers.)
The MAYOR interfered.—lt would be quite impossible to
conduct the business of the council if such recriminations as
these were allowed. He was sure that if gentlemen would
but consider, they would see how much it was for the cha-
racter of the council that these expressions should be avoided.
He made no allusions to particular individuals; but he
knew that such expressions had been made use of in that
room, and the sooner they were abandoned the better.
(Cheers.)
Mr. EARLE said, his temper was rather warm, and he
could not allow the party to which he belonged, and which
he respected, to have sarcastic words and looks thrown out
against it upon every occasion when that gentleman got up.
Mr. MOLYNEU X moved that the number of the committee
consist of fifteen.

Mr. AixiN moved, as an amendment, that it consist of
seventeen.

Mr. BIRKETT denied, as had been asserted by Mr. Earle,
that the funds of the parish were taken for the instruction
of persons in the workhouse in the Roman Catholic religion.
The poor-law act only authorised the payment of a chaplain,
who must be a member of the Established Church. A
licensed minister might come in on courtesy to those who
required him, but there was not a farthing paid him. It
would be illegal to pay him anything from the parish funds.
Mr. SYIEPPARD, as a poor-law guardian, begged to confirm
what Mr. Birkett had just said.
Mr. BIRKETT added, that in his opinion, instead of an
" addition," Mr. Blackburn would subtract from that which
was right if placed upon the commtttee.
The MAYOR thought they were again deviating from the
question before the council.
Mr. LACE inquired whether the council or the committee
had the regulation of the system in the schools ?
The MAYOR said the committee had the appointment of
the system, but their proceedings were all confirmed by the
council, and, of course, it was in the power of the council to
approve or disapprove of their acts.
Mr. LACE said that if the exclusive arrangement of the
schools were with the committee, he should, perhaps, vote
differently from what he intended to do.
_ _

Mr. HORNBY recommended Mr. Aikin to withdraw his
amendment. He (Mr. Aikin) had said he threw it out in
the hope that it would be taken up by the chairman of the
committee ; but as it had not been so taken up, and as it
was the general opinion of the majority of the council that
no liberal should be on the committee, it would be almost
factious to divide the council on such a question, which, after
all, did not involve any matter of principle.
Mr. AIKIN was rather inclined to differ from Mr. Hornby.
He proposed his amendment, not from any factious or party
spirit, but because those who thought an arrangement might
be made, thought also that that arrangement must emanate
from the committee. He did it solely with the hope that
those who were moderate in their views on the question
might record their votes, and show that they had a sincere
desire to bring it to an amicable arrangement. (Cries of
" Vote, vote.")
Mr. EVANS said they had heard a good deal about prin-
ciple. He considered the principle of the Education Com-
mittee was education. He considered all the committees
of the council were, as it were, the council. They were small
councils, and ordered exactly to debate and discuss the
questions in a small way, in order to prepare them for the
council in a large way. Now, to exclude out of the council
all the means of discussion, in his opinion was to render
the committees in a great degree abortive in the object for
which they were formed. He considered they would, in
every way, defeat the end of committees by excluding
those who would properly discuss every subject—and, on
the other side, that they would overwhelm the Council with
details and discussions that would never be carried to an
equally complete point. He would remind the committee and
the council that it was rather dictatorial in anybody—it was
a presumption unwarranted either by fact or by reasoning—
to say that either the committee or the council had a right to
declare that the existing arrangement of school education
was an unalterable principle. As it was going on now, he
would corroborate the assertion of Mr. Earle, that it was
going on at variance with the principle of the legislature that
created town-councils. They were excluding, locally, Catho-
lics, while the legislature were providing for their education ;
and here was now the most monstrous principle he had ever
heard asserted, that they were not even to let that very com-
mittee who were ordered to decide on how the education
should be conducted—that they were not to let into its body
any of those who were already committed on one point. He
certainly should, if the questiofn with regard to the number
of the committee were negatived, move an amendment at
least upon one name. _

Mr. 'SANDS said it would, no doubt, be in the recollection
of the council that, twelve months ago, they had acted on the
principle just recommended by his friend Mr. Evans. The
conservatives at that time felt their position was strong
enough to be liberal, and they put on three of the opposite
party. He had the moving of the committee upon that oc-
casion, and Mr. Platt and two others were put on. It had
been found in the working that this was an unwise plan.
(Hear.) They found that one or two of those gentlemen very
much thwarted their views, not only in the committee, but
when the proceedings came before the council, they some-
times said, " I decidedly objected to that in committee,
and shall state my objections here." In the formation of the
committee this year the conservatives thought it much better
to avoid the occurrence of a similar inconvenience, especially
as the gentlemen opposed to them wished rather to be left off
the committee ; and upon those grounds it was that the con-
servatives had proposed the committee which the Council
had just heard read.
Mr. AIKIN said he would save time by withdrawing his
amendment, believing, as lie did, that the gentlemen named
were determined to have the whole credit of making a liberal
change, such as would be satisfactory. (Ironical laughter.)
He might say also he had reason to believe that if some such
measure were not brought before the committee it would be
brought before the council in a more substantive shape.
Mr. BUSHELL asked whether Mr. Evans would consent to
have on the Dock Committee those who were inimical to
-warehouses on the dock quays? (A laugh.)
Mr. EvANs said he should desire it above all things, be-
cause many had come upon the committee who were ht first
inimical, but, they were so well convinced afterwards, that
they dropped into his views.
Mr. BUSHELL rejoined that if he could hope for any such
result in the case of Mr. Hornby and Mr. Blackburn, he
would consent to have them on the committee. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.)
Mr. MOLYNEUX here proceeded to read the names of the
committee. When he came to that of Mr. Hodgson,
Mr. EVANS said, I will not act up to what I said with re-
gard to moving an amendment. lam quite content with the
demonstration which has been made on our side. Anything
else I think would be useless.

Mr. HODGSON.—That geutlemsn must have extraordinary
confidence in his powers of conversion if he thinks, though
he can convert those on the Dock Committee, he can convert
those who are acting on principle in the schools. (Hear,
hear.)
The committee, as previously proposed by Mr. Molyneux,
were then agreed to—namely, Messrs. Chilton, Crook, Ed-
wards, Harbord, Hodgson, Molyneux, Holme, Houghton,
G. H. Lawrence, North, Rae, Sands, Shand, Shaw, and
Thompson.

GAOL COMMITTEE.
Sir THOMAS BRANCICER moved that the Gaol Committee
consist of the ten following gentlemen :—Messrs. Hodgson,
Houghton, jun., Sands, John Holmes, Hornby, Aikin, Leigh,
Evans, Earle, and the Mayor.—Agreed to.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE expressed a hope that all con-
tracts would be under the Gaol Finance Committee in
future. (Hear.)
At the request of Mr. LLOYD,
The TOWN-CLERIC explained that the council had not only
the building, enlarging, and repairing of the gaol, but the ap-
pointment and dismissal of the officers and the maintenance
of the gaol with provisions, and consequently the making of
all contracts—in fact, they had everything which formerly
belonged to the justices, except that the justices had the
regulation of the gaol subject to this provision : that no order
made by the justices, which required the payment of money,
should be in force until confirmed by the council. The Town-
Clerk concluded by saying it was desirable that there should
be a cordial understanding betwe,en,the committee appointed
that day and the justices, because difficulties might otherwise
occur causing conflicting determinations.
GARDE-Se:COMMITTEE.
Mr. TROTMAN moved 'that the Gardens' Committee con-
sist of the seven following gentlemen :—Messrs. Crook, Isaac
Holmes, Jones, Preston, Thornhill, Plumpton, and Trot-
man.—Agreed to.

Sir T. BRANCKEU.--I hope the council will give strict
orders for the preservation of the game ! (Laughter.)
BOROUGH COURTS' COMMITTEE.
Mr. COOPER. moved that the'Borough Court and Court of
Requests' Committee consist of the eight following gentle-
men ;—Messrs. Copeland, Lloyd, Trotman, Lace, Cooper,
North, Holt, and Thompson.—Agreed to.
The MAYOR acknoriledged the receipt of a letter stating
that one of the assistants in the COint of Requests had been
guilty of embezzlement.-It was referred to the committee.

CHURCH. EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE.
Mr. BIRKETT moved that the Church Expenditure Com-
mittee consist of the seven following gentlemen :—Messrs.
Griffith, Lace, Molyneux, Parker, Platt, Shand, and Birkett.
—Agreed to.
COURTS OF LAW COMMITTEE.
Mr. LLOYD moved that the Courts of Law and St. George's
Hall Committee consist of the nine following gentlemen :
Messrs. Henry Lawrence, Earle, Aspinall, Henry Holmes,
Lloyd, Moore, Molyneux, North, and Holmes.—Agreed to.
Mr. LLOYD also moved that the proceedings of the Courts
of Law and St. George's Hall Committee be read immedi-
ately after the proceedings of the Improvement Committee,
at all future meetings of the council.—Agreed to.
TOWN-HALL COMMITTEE.
Mr. SANDS moved that the Town-ball Establishment
Committee consist of the seven following gentlemen :
Messrs. Hodgson, Sands, Barclay, Earle, Leigh, Bushell,
and Brancker.
OBSERVATORY COMMITTEE.
Mr. SHAND moved that the Observatory Committee con-
sist of the nine following gentlemen :—Messrs. Chilton,
Aikin, Alderman Houghton, Platt, Nicol, Rae, Turner,
Shand, and Blundell.—Agreed to.

itt HEALTH COMMITT
Mr. BIRKETT moved that the Healt Town, comprising
the Wash-houses and Baths' Commie, consist of the 17
following gentlemen :—Messrs. Aspinall, Birkett, Black-
burn, Bulley, Cooper, Crook, Edwards, Fawcett, Griffiths,
Houghton, jun., Isaac Holmes, Harbord, Jones, Kilshaw,
Lace, Sheppard, and the Mayor.—Agreed to.

PAID OFFICERS' COMMITTEE.

Mr. LLOYD moved that the special committee, to inquire
into the present duties of the officers and servants of the
corporation with their respective salaries, consist of the fol
lowing gentlemen :—Messrs. J. Lawrence, Moore, Procter,
Kilshaw, Barclay, and Lloyd ; and that the Finance Com-
mittee, at their first meeting, appoint one in the place of Mr.
Bolton.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE said, that seeing that this com-
mittee were in the middle of their inquiry, he had no objec-
tion to concur in the recommendation that the gentlemen
named should form the committee ; but his impression was.
that there should be a permanent paid officers' committee.
Convenience dictated a different course this year; but he
hoped that afterwards there would be a paid officers' com-
mittee, and that the different committees should be allowed
to choose who should represent them.
Mr. LLOYD said the present was a special committee, but
he agreed that a permanent one would be useful.
After a few words from other members, the motion was
passed.