The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-04-08 00:00:00

EDUCATION COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS

present

The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK read the proceedings, resolu-
tions, and reports of the Education Committee. It appeared
that at one of their meetings the committee resolved that
permission be continued to the Northern Mechanics' Institu-
tion to use the ground floor of the North Corporation School,
between the hours of six and ten o'clock each evening, except
on the evenings of Saturday and Sunday, for the purposes
originally declared in the memorial to the Council of the 7th
of February, 1839, and terminable on six months' notice.
Mr. Alderman MOLYN EUX moved the confirmation of the
proceedings.
Mr. SANDS seconded the motion.
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY begged to trouble thbe Council
with one or two remarks in relation to some observations
which fell from Mr. Sandbach (whom he was sorry was not
in his place) at the last meeting of the Council. Mr. Sand.
bath then stated that the Education Committee had deter-
mined to give up the apprenticeship system; and he added,
as a reason for it, that the apprentices did not attend, and
there were no means of making them attend. He (Mr. Bar-
clay) was surprised at this assertion, but, being taken by
surprise. he said nothing, although he was aware that the
apprenticeship system was generally considered, in Germany
and Prussia, as the best mode of getting assistance, and that
it was recommended by the Committee of Education of the
Privy Council. The question, however, was, as to the beha-
viour of these apprentices ; and considering that they were
serving their time, and were looking forward to the profession
as a means of support, it was of some consequence, at least to
them, that their characters should stand right. He, there-
fore, made some inquiry, and in the course of it be had re-
ceived a letter, written by a former mistress of the South
School, which was so much to the purpose that he would
take the liberty of reading it. Mr. Alderman Barclay then
read a long letter from Mrs. Buchanan, formerly Miss Har-
rison, who, for a period of eight or nine years, bad been
mistress of the South School, but was now removed to In-
verness. It stated that the writer had read, in the Mercury,
the report of a Council meeting, in which it was stated that
the apprenticeship system was to be abandoned, at which she
expressed her surprise and astonishment, because, during the
whole time the girls school was under her management the
apprentices behaved in the most exemplary manner, and were
exceedingly zealous in the discharge of their duties. So at-
tached were they to their duties that she could seldom prevail
upon them to go home to their dinners; and she had even
been obliged to force them from the school. As to the supe.
rity of monitors and apprentices, there was not the slightest
comparison ; by the monitorial system it was impossible to
secure a regular attendance, but by the apprenticeship system
the cleverest pupils were brought out, and their services
extensively promoted the utility of the schools. The other
parts of the letter consisted of a warm defence of the female
apprentices, and a statement of the writer's opinion, pretty
clearly expressed, that the committee did not know what they
were about when they took upon themselves to change the
system.
Mr. SANDS asked to whom that letter was addressed ?
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY replied that it had been addressed
to a member of the Ladies' Committee, from whom he re-
ceived it, and that it was at the service of the council.
Mr. GLADSTONE said it was very well to read this letter of
Mrs. Buchanan's, but one story was always good until ano-
ther was told. Mrs. Walsh, the mistress of the North School,
for instance, was decidedly of opinion that the system of ap.
prenticeship was bad. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOLTON said, then, there was the experience of one
who had been a teacher for nine years, against that of ano-
ther who had been a teacher eighteen months.
Mr. GLADSTONE begged Mr. Bolton's pardon: he was
under a mistake in this respect.
Mr. BOLTON replied that Mrs. Buchanan bad been mistress
and under-mistress of the South School for nine years.
Mr. GLADSTONE admitted that was so, but she had not
had nine years' experience of the apprenticeship system, for
it had not been anything like that period in operation.
Mr. Alderman EARLE, after some reference to Mrs. Bu-

2-anan's opiniori, said ha also should have a idler fo read,
and as it was not in order to do so without requesting its
production, he should be obliged by the production of a let-
ter from Mr. Stone, the superintendent of the schools, from
the file of the Education Committee.

The MAYOR asked the Council whether they would au-
thorise the production of the letter?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—What letter is it?

.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—It is a letter from Mr. Stone, and
it has peculiar reference to a memorial which I have to

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE
Mr. Alderman EARLE

—Who is it addressed to?
—To the Education Committee,

Mr. BOLTON.—It is public property.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—It is public property, and I will
take care it becomes more public if it is refused here to-day.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—It is not refused.
Mr.
Alderman EARLE.—I may read it then ?

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—Oh, yes Tread it.
Mr. Alderman EARLE then read the following letter

"North Corporation School,-
" Liverpool, 10th March, 1842.
" GENTLEMEN,—111 order to carry out the intention of
your committee, and my own desire, with regard to the
schools over which you have been pleased to place me, 1
beg to observe that I am decidedly of opinion, and experi-
ence bears me out in the assertion, that, as long as the ap-
prentices remain in the said schools, and under the impres-
sion that they may absent themselves therefrom during the
time of prayer and religious instruction, thereby giving a
license to those other children who may have precisely the
same objectfon as they themselves seem to have, it will be
utterly impossible to produce that regularity and attention
which is most desirable at the present time. I have taken
the opportunity of addressing the children and apprentices
upon the all•importance of a sound religious instruction, and
at the same time pointed out the necessity of every indivi-
dual's attendance during prayer. It appears, however, from
a memorandum which Ihold, that five out of the seven in
the North, and three out of the four in the South, School,
object altogether to join during this time. I stated to them
that if they remained, they would be compelled to attend in
the schools during that time ; if not, there could be only one
alternative, that of cancelling their indentures. They prefer
the latter. This being the case, I feel convinced that your
committee will see the urgent necessity of deciding at once
on this matter; and from the circumstance which occurred
this morning in the South Schools, of which Rector Camp-
bell is cognizant, and mentioned to me by the rector, the
best course now to be adopted would be, to have their in-
'dentures cancelled. Ocular demonstration is not to be got
over ; and the rector has requested me to state, that his firm
conviction is, that until these boys are out of thel schools, it
win be quite impossible to set the same at work with any
credit, or to form any criterion of your present proceedings.
" I am, Gentlemen,
" Your most obedient servant,
" ROBERT STONE.

'• To the Education Committee
of the town of Liverpool."
In the course of reading this letter, Mr. Priestley being
called out of the room ;
Mr. Alderman EARLE said—l really hope you are not go-
ing away, for you are an important member of the Education
Committee.
Mr. PRIESTLEY.-1 am called out, sir.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Then I hope your call will be
short.

Mr. ASPINALL, in explanation of that part of the letter
which refers to. Mr. Campbell, said, Mr. Campbell had been
insulted in one of the schools, on which he made a complaint
to the master.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said the explanation came mat apro-
pos. He could hat dly think that Mr. Campbell would have
made such a request as that attributed to him, because in every
indenture of apprenticeship there were two sides to the bar-
gain ; the council were to do justice to the apprentices, and
the apprentices were to do justice to the council. He could
not believe that Mr. Campbell had asked such a question,
because everybody, and particularly a minister, who wished
to act properly, would first say to himself, " How should I
act in such circumstances ?" If he had a child apprenticed
underparticular circumstances, which child was compelled to
do certain things against its conscience, would he, as the fa-
ther, approve of that sort of thing? If Mr. Campbell ap-
proved of it, he would have acted rightly ; but he (Mr. E.)
could not imagine he would have said these things ; he would
rather have said—" this is not the way that I would wish
others to do unto me." Then the idea of such a man as Mr:
Stone talking about the importance of religious instruction,
and so forth ! It was absurd. He begged the Town-clerk to
ring the bell for a glass of water, fOr really the long sentences
in Mr. Stone's letter had made him quite thirsty.
Mr. SANDS thought the letter very fair.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—" Middling fair," Mr. Sands, I
suppose?
Mr. SANDS.—No, I think it very fair, indeed.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—" Very fair, indeed," for the
superindendent, par excellence, of the corporation schools
of Liverpool. This, too, from a member of the Education
Committee !
Mr. BUSHELL
in it

,—Can you point out a grammatical error

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Yes, I can
Mr. BUSHELL.—Where are they ? I cannot discover any
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh, you are q very great autho-
rity, Mr. Bushell, because all your own sentences are so
remarkably well turned.
Mr. BUSLIELL.—But I cannot speak so well as you.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh, yes, you do. I think you
speak remarkably well.—He had a memorial to present on
this very subject of the turning away of the apprentices,
which be thought would be received with peculiar satisfac-
tion by the council, because the first person by whom it was
signed was a tory, and he had voted with the tories at the
late election in St. Ann's Ward. Mr. Earle then read the
memorial, which was of extreme length, occupying eight
closely-written folio pages. It professed to come from the
fathers of the apprentices who had been " turned out " of
the corporation schools. It stated that when they were
bound it was agreed they were not to receive peculiar re-
ligious instruction, and they had continued in the schools
up to the present time on the understanding that no inter-
ference in this respect should take place. They had, how-
ever, been required to go, to church, and they were not
taught algebra, Latin, and other matters as formerly • and
they complained that they were, required to be transferred
from Mr. Nelson to Mr. Stone, who could not teach them
these branches of learning according to the terms of their
indentures. They had received notice from the Town-clerk
that unless they consented to the transfer they must
, not
again attend the schools; and since this they had been twice
driven from the schools : however, before taking legal pro-
ceedings they wished to throw themselves on the high honour
and gentlemanly feeling of the council.—He did not know
whether the memorialists had yet taken any legal steps ' • but
whether they had or not he trusted that justice would be done
to them. As he had said before there were two sides to every
question; and although the apprentices had done their duty
to the corporation, it did not seem as if the corporation
had done their duty to the apprentices. He did not
think that it was exactly the duty of the Town-clerk,
although he entertained the highest respect for his
integrity and honour—(he should be very sorry to think
otherwise of him)—to try to get gentlemen out of a bobble
when once they had got into it. The Education Committee
were at present in a difficulty, and the Town-clerk seemed to
be trying to get them out of the mud. He (Mr. Alderman
Earle) would let them flounder in it. He would not, how-
ever, let them be a party to an unjust action. These appren-
tices were bound to a man of talent, for whom the public
had a regard, because he was capable of teaching the chil-
dren ; but he would appeal to any gentlemen, whether Mr.
Stone was a fit person to whom they ought to be apprenticed?
His own letters condemned him ; but perhaps Mr. Bushell
had not seen them all ;—[Mr. BUSHELL—Yes, I have]—and
Mr: Stone would have acted wisely if he had not written
them. He did think that the apprentices would be very ill
used if they were forced eitber out of the schools or to cancel
their indentures, unless there was some person to whom they
could be indentured able to teach them what the corpo-
ration had agreed they should be taught. These poor chil-
dren had left other lines of life ; they had been singled out
for the purpose, as possessing peculiar talent, and he was
sure, from what he bad seen of them, that they were well-
spoken, genteel boys. They had been at his house last night.
(Laughter.) Mr. Sands laughed, but—
Mr. SANDS—I laughed, because I thought there was some
investigation going on somewhere.
Mr. Alderman EARLE—An investigation going on some-
where ! Why all he knew was, that these two lads called at
his house last night with the memorial, and requested him to
present it ; but he had never seen either of them before. He
had certainly seen a boy named Slack, whom he had wished
to have taken into his counting-house, in Hoyle-street; and
the father of one boy once called upon him at his counting-
house, and spoke to him upon the subject ; but he said to
him, " What do you come to me for, sir? You have voted
for those gentlemen who have brought this to pass ; you voted
for Mr. Parker and Mr. Brassey, in St. Ann's Ward, and
what do you come to me for? If you disapprove of the sys-
tem which they have established, why do you vote for them ?"
" Oh, but," says he, " I voted under protest."
Mr. BRASSEY denied this statement.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—SO much for " the investigations"
which Mr. Sands spoke of. But Mr. Sands had already in-
sinuated things for which Mr. Barclay had called him to ac-
count, and he must recollect that he did not come off on that
occasion with a very good grace, and now he was insinuating
things in which he would have equal difficulty in coming off
with a good grace.
Mr. SANDS.—I shall be very glad to answer you.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh ! I like to speak my mind
openly.
Mr. SANDS.—I was going to speak mine openly.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—AII I say is that I will do all in
my power to see these lads righted.
Mr. SANDS.—There is no wish on our part to see them
otherwise than righted,
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—There is the point. There is no
wish but to see them righted. Indeed! Then I should be
glad to have the Town-clerk's explanation whether these pro-
ceedings are legal—whether the education committee can
compel these indentures to be cancelled?
The TOWN-CLERK.—If the parties had furnished you with
my letter of the 29th March, which they have not, you would
have had the whole case.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.--LI have nothing but these.
The TOWN-CLERK.—Then you are deficiently supplied
with information.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Then it is your bounden duty to
us, Mr. Town-clerk, to give us your explanation.
Mr. ASPINALL.—The Town-clerk will do so.
Mr. HARBORD.—I think that Mr. Earle is himself in the
mud, and that he ought to be allowed to flounder a little

longer.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.LA t is absolutely necessary that we
should have the Town-clerk's explanation.
The TOWN-CLERK.—At the proper time I shall be pre-
pared to give it.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—WeII ; I hardly know how to
finish this. (Loud laughter.) It is no laughing matter, gen-
tlemen. You are doing a great injustice to people beneath
you in station and life, but that is no reason why you should
do so ; although you wear good coats upon your backs, you
are not to treat the poor in this way. We are not sent into
this room for that purpose.
The TOWN-CLERK.—I think, Mr. Mayor, Mr. Earle
should finish his case before be calls for evidence. (Hear.)
Mr. MELLOR.—I think, on the other hand, that Mr. Earle
ought to have the letter of the 29th March read before he
finishes his case.
Mr. HARBORD.---I differ from that,inasmuch as Mr. Earle
stated that the Town-clerk had no right to help to get the
Education Committee out of the mud. Now Mr. Earle has
got himself into the mud, and I think the Town-clerk ought
to leave him to flounder a little there.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—That is a very smart and clever
repartee, Mr. Harbord ; but coming from you it doesn't hit
very hard.
Mr. BOLTON said, that if fair justice were given to Mr.
Earle he ought to be put in possession of the letter of the
29th March, in order that he might found thereon a resolu-
tion which he intended to propose.
Mr. LLOYD did not think so; but he thought that both
Mr. Earle and his proceedings should be referred back for
information, for it was very clear that he was floundering in
the mud in all directions. He had not got above one-half
the correspondence ; but the Town-clerk's explanations, like
the Duke's" despatches, would make everything satisfac-
I tory.

Mr. MELLon must say this was not satisfactory to him.
In the first place, Mr. Earle should be put into possession of
the Town.elerk's letter before he finished his case—(cries of
" No, no"); and further, some explanations should be given
to the council why that letter had not appeared among the
proceedings of the Education Committee.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said there were other points. There
was this point—the resolution forcing these children to do
what they were not bound to do, against their On:science;

and, Whether or not, the original indentures were not to the
masters who had been vompeljed to leave. It was an awlc-
ward situation into which the Education Committee had

Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE thought the indentures were made

to tiny master that might be substituted for another, am! if
that were the case that was not interfering with the opinions
of such masters.

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—They are indentures to be taught
certain things, which Mr. Stone does not intend to teach
them, either from incapability or some other reason.
The TOWN-CLERK.—That is not my construction of the
indentures.

Mr. PARKER had not yet seen the indentures. He had
applied for a copy. but he could not obtain one. They were

talking about the indentures, whilst hey believed there were
four-fifths of the corporation who had never seen them.

Mr. Alderman EARLS here moved that the memorial be
referred to the Education Committee, and that they be in-

structed to report upon the allegations it contained.
Mr. BOLTON seconded the proposition. He thought that
though the Town-clerk. had not produced his letter of the

29th of March, Mr. Earle had made out a case of apparent
injustice, fraud, and oppression. Either Mr. Stone was in-

capable or unwilling, 'Or perhaps both, to instruct the ap-
prentices in those branches of knowledge in which they were

entitled to be instructed ; but whatever the result of the
proposed enquiry might be, it was due to the character cf

the' committee -who-directed the schools to see that the

apprentices received no injustice

Mr. BUSHELL said the labours of the Education Committee
were already very considerable, and it would be hard to increase

them unnecessarily

If the letter to which the Town-clerk

had alluded would throw sufficient light upon this matter to
prevent the necessity of sending the memorial to the com-

inittee, it would be unnecessary— to occupy their time with it.
Mr. CROOK was quite sure the Town-clerk's letter would
explain everything.

The MAYOR (the Town clerk having retired for a moment)
said it was his intention to explain everything.
..:_ .

Mr. PARKER said the memorial read by Mr. Earle was to
have been presented by himself, as Mr. Fergie, by whom it
was first signed, and who was a member of his constituency,
had requested him to do so, and he said he would. He was
much delighted, however, that it had fallen into the bands of
Mr. Earle ; at the same time he had not pledged himself to
support it. He had, as' he said before, gone to the Town-
clerk to obtain information as to the terms upon which the
apprentices were bound to the corporation ; the Town-clerk,
however, told him that they belonged to the Education Com-

mittee, and without an order from the chairman he could not

give him a copy of the indentures

Ile did not go to the

chairman because he thought that, as a member of the coun-
cil, he had a right to see the indentures; therefore, under
these circumstances, he could not tell what the conditions of
them were. lie was extremely sorry that Mr. Earleshould

cast insinuations upon one of the rectors in the manner
he had, for the rector, he was sure, wished to do

nothing but what was right. He hoped, indeed, that no
member of that council would impute to any clergyman a

disposition to do anything but what was right, and still less
to the rector. Before this matter was decided upon, be sug-
gested that each member should have a copy of the inden-
tures. He had told Fergie he was satisfied that justice would
be done to him if he would only let the thing come fairly
before the council.

Mr. Alderman EARLE disclaimed having said anything
disrespectful of Mr. Rector Campbell.
_ .

The TOWN-CLERK said the time bad now arrived when it
was proper he should state what he knew of the subject
_

brought before the council by Mr. Alderman Earle. First
of all he would explain that he had always considered that if
he held papers on behalf of any committee, he held them as

not to be disposed of at his discretion, but under the direc-
tion of the committee, unless any of them were called for in
that council chamber. The subject in question underwent
considerable consideration, at a time when a member of the
council applied to be present at the proceedings of the watch
committee ; and the subject of the papers was taken.into
consideration at the same time. The gentleman applying
was Mr. Cooper. On a subsequent occasion Mr. Isaac
Holmes applied to take some part in the proceedings of the
Education Committee—he thought in the schools themselves.
On both these occasions he (the Town-clerk) was called
upon, and he gave his opinion against the parties who were
applying for privileges to which they thought themselves en-
titled. The first application made to him for a copy of the
indentures in the present case, was brought to him by one of
his clerks, and the party who applied was Mr. Ald. Earle.
He directed an explanation to be given why it could not be
furnished ; subsequently, however, it appeared that Mr. Earle
had applied in behalf of one of the apprentices, and had
the apprentice along with him. The case was then altered,
and it clearly being an application for a party, a copy was
furnished. The councillor, Mr. Parker, then applied, and he
explained to Mr. Parker that he would have nothing more
to do than to obtain an order from the chairman of the com-
mittee, and to that order he (the Town-clerk) should pay im-
plicit and proMpt obedience. The first directions he had
from the Education Committee to prepare transfers of the
indentures of apprenticeship, or, if the apprentices did not
wish to remain under the new head master, to cancel them,
were on the 25th of February, as follows :
" The Town-clerk to prepare transfers of the indentures
of the apprentices to the head master, Mr. Robert Stone;
and should the parents or guardians of any of the appren-
tices be desirous to withdraw any of them from the schools,
the Town-clerk to cancel their indentures. And that the
like course to be pursued with regard to the female appren-
tices and their mistresses."

Of course, the committee baying given him these directions
to prepare the assignment without any controul as to the
terms of the transfer, if there was any error in the assign-
ment, it rested with him and not with the committee. The
directions being given, he addressed a note to the parents of
the several apprentices, on the 28th of February, stating—.

" I have received from the Education Couirnittee of the
Council the instructions copied on the other half-sheet, and
I have now to acquaint you, that the draft of the assignment
will be ready for your perusal at twelve o'clock to-morrow,
when it can be delivered to yourself or the apprentices, with
any explanation that may be desired."
And with this note he gave a copy of the directions of the
committee. At a meeting which took place the following
day, he received from the apprentices named in the memorial
and their parents a demand by them, taken down as follows :
" Before agreeing to an assignment of the indentures to
Mr. Stone, the head master, the fathers of the apprentices
wish to know whether the Education Committee will not
undertake that their sons shall be instructed in the rudiments
of Latin, and the elementary branches of the mathematics,
as taught by Mr. Nelson."
The next step he took was to lay this demand before a meet-
ing of the Education Committee for their instructions thereon ;
and the answer which they directed to be returned was as
follows :

"The corporation are ready to execute an assignment in
the terms precisely of the existing indentures ; but the com-
mittee are of opinion that these terms do not comprise in-
struction in the rudiments of Latin, or the elementary
blanches of the mathematics. However, the committee have
no objection to the head master, or any of the masters, giving
instruction in those branches if they chose to do so ; but the
committee cannot make any order upon the subject."
This, at a further meeting with the apprentices and their
parents, was read by him to the parties ; and this was the re-
solution referred to in the memorial read by Mr. Earle, as
stating "that the committee would not burden the master with
the teaching of Latin and the mathematics." At this second

meeting, Mr. Fergie, the father, read a letter, which be had
addressed to the Chairman of the Education Committee, and
concluded with expressing his determination in these words :
" I will not cancel the indenture nor execute the assign-
ment unless the corporation engage a proper person to teach
my son exactly as Mr. Nelson taught him ; Mr. Stone is not
that person ; he is not capable."
This determination being taken down was read to Mr. Fergie,
and confirmed by him. Mr. Fergie then applied for a copy
of the draft of assignment. The other parents and the ap-
prentices, (with Mr. Fergie's son, six in number,) all stated
"We will abide by what Mr. Fergie has said." Thus as to
these apprentices the meeting ended. Drafts of the assign-
ment being ordered, then th letters read by Mr. Earle, in
the memorial, were written by him to the parents. On the
19th of March he wrote to the parents as follows :
" You have been distinctly apprised that the corporation

have been (as they still are) willing to join in an assignment
of your son's indenture of apprenticeship to the new head
master, Mr. Stone, which deed would be prepared in the
terms of the original indenture, and according to the proviso
therein for such assignment upon a new head master being
appointed by the council. As your son, acting with your
approbation, has declared his refusal to be assigned to Mr.
Stone, I am directed by the Education Committee of the
Council to state, that it necessarily follows that your son's
attendance at the school cannot, under these circumstances,
be continued."
Here he might have stopped ; but, as copies of the draft of
the assignment had been applied for, and he wished to give
the parties time for repentance upon the subject if they should
be so advised, he wrote them this note :
" As you have requested the draft assignment of your son's
indenture, I send it herewith, willing to give every informa-
tion, though, after your son's refusal to be assigned to Mr.
Stone, it cannot be of much value, unless that determination
be altered."

He thus showed that the door was still open for accommoda-
tion, if they thought proper. He had supposed they had
thought better of it—at least he then thought so ; but he did
not know how this might be upon a consideration of what
now appeared. The assignment which was pfepared was
drawn, according to his opinion, precisely in the terms of the
original indentures. The original indentures were different
from ordinary indentures of apprenticeship, which in their
nature were personal ; the apprentice personally bound to the
master, and the master personally bound to the apprentice;
and if there was during the term of apprenticeship any
change, such change could only take place by the agreement
of both. That was the_case with ordinary indentures of ap-

prenticeship •, but the indentures in question, very properly
considering the apprentice bound to the establishment rather
than to the master, contained the following proviso:—
" Provided, that if the said Robert Jacob Nelson shall,
during the said term, cease to be the head master of the
North Corporation School, or if the said Robert Jacob Nelson
shall die during the said term, he the said Robert Jacob Nel-
son, or his executors or administrators, shall and will forth-
with legally assign the said apprentice, for the residue of the
said term then unexpired, unto the person who shall be ap-
pointed by the council of the. said borough to succeed the
said Robert Jacob Nelson in the said office."
Then the undertaking of the master was certainly in these

terms
" And the said Robert Jacob Nelson, doth, hereby, for
himself, his executors, administrators and assigns, covenant,
promise and agree, with and to the said Charles Fergie, and
the said apprentice, that he the said Robert Jacob Nelson,
his executors, administrators and assigns, shall and will, dur-
ing the said term teach, inform and instruct, or cause and
procure so be taught, informed and instructed, the said ap-
prentice by the best ways and means he can in the art or oc-
cupation of a teacher in the various branches of education
taught in the North Corporation School as he, the said Ro-
bert Jacob Nelson, now practises, or, during the said term,
shall practise the same."
This stipulation seemed very proper. It was not different
from the ordinary stipulations in common indentures. The
effect of the proviso which he first read was decidedly this,—
the choice of a new master was given to the council acting by
their committee ; the apprentice parted with the power
which, under the common indenture, he would have had, of
consenting to the release of the old master, In common in-
dentures the master was bound, during all the term, to fulfil
his engagements; but here all that was parted with, and the
apprentice submitted to be bound to the new master who,
upon the removal of the old, was to be appointed by another
party
t—the
-ceorukn) read
council.
lUpon that appointment being made, he
the engagement, on the part of the new
master, to teach and instruct, to be just the same, precisely.
as that on the part of the old master ; where you then read
" Nelson" you should now read " Stone." The moment the
new master was appointed everything applying to Nelson was
changed and applied to the new head master ; that is, Stone
is himself to teach as Nelson was himself to teach,—with
reference to the branches of education, from time to time
taught by him to the general scholars. The new master
was bound by the assignment to teach those branches
which,
master)
ifromn the
tion timec corporation time, were taught by him (the new
would come to this, that any one apprentice could control
all the necessary changes in the management of the schools.
oa schools. If it were otherwise, it
What was referred to in the indentures was the mode of
teaching the apprentices, with reference to the teaching of
n
the general scholars i the school. If it were, that there was
a control of the kind contended for on the part of the ap-
prentices, it would come to this—if you taught Latin to-day
ol r Greek to-morrow, you must go on teaching Latin and
Greek. however bad you found the experiment to be; or you
must ask the consent of the apprentice to change the system.
It was impossi • •ble that this could be the law. This was his
honest opinion upon the indentures, and he was bound, as he

was unrestricted by the committee, to exercise his honest
opinion upon the subject ; and he' trusted he had done so,
without having occasion, or giving occasion, to get himself
or the committee out of the mire. There was not one of
parents or the apprentices who would not say that upon
every occasion when they met him, they were treated with
the greatest courtesy—time was sacrificed in explanations,
temper was, under trying circumstances, controlled. He
defied them to say that he had used one unpleasant word to-
wards them, or that they had not been treated with as much
respect as if they had been a deputation from the council of
education acting on the part of the legislature. (Hear.) The
next thing he had to refer to was this; he received a note,
for the first time on this subject, from Mr. Berry, a solicitor
in Liverpool, after the draft of the assignment had been in
the possession of each of the parties for some days. It was
delivered on the I9th, and ou the 23rd he received the note
as follows :

" Fergie to Stone.
" I return this draft, approved with a slight alteration,
making it agree with the terms of the original indenture. I

am instructed also by Mr. Cunningham, ci‘lr. M'Avoy, Mr

Duncan, and Mr. Sti)ck to act.on their behalf in this natter,

and to inform you they are quite willing to enter into an
assignment on the terms in the original indenture. As all the
cases are, I believe, similar, it will save trouble if this draft
be considered as approved on behalf of all. I conclude the
original indentures are the same in all the cases; if not, I

shall be obliged by coiies'oTsTeli as differ from Mr
Fergie's."

lie referred to the draft, and he found it was altered to this
effect—that the new head master shOuld be bound to teach
the apprentices in the art or mystery of a teacher in the va-
rious branches of education as fully and as effectually as were
taught by the said R. J. Nelson in the said North Corpora-
tion School. That, in his opinion, was quite contrary to the
terms of the original indentures. He, therefore, on the 24th,
wrote the following reply to Mr. Berry :
" I have given every possible consideration to your altera-
tions in the draft assignment of Thomas Francis Fergie to
the new Head Master of the North Corporation School ; but
it appears to me that these alterations, instead of making the
draft agree with the terms of the original indenture, make
that draft materially to differ from the terms of the original
indenture. I think the draft, without the alterations, cor-
rectly expressed those terms.
" I cannot, therefore, approve of the alterations ; and I
again transmit the draft that the subject may have any fur-
ther consideration that you may deem proper."
Now here, at the most, was a difference of opinion between
two solicitors. Mr. Berry thought he was right, and he
(the town-clerk) thought he was right. Mr. Berry, how-

ever, did not reply to his opinion on the alterations given in
that letter; and up to this moment, the 6th of April, he had
had no communication with Mr. Berry on the subject of the
assignment. But he did receive subsequently a letter from
,__ . __

Mr :Berry, which called forth the letter of the'9th March. in
whieh he gave an explanation, that in a short compass would

put the council in pp-ssession of all the facts.

The letter he

received from Mr. Berry on the 28th March was as follows :
" Fergie to Stone.
"I am informed that the apprentices have been this morn-
ing forcibly turned out of the school by. Mr. Stone's direc-
tion. I cannot imagine this proceeding can be taken by your
advice, although you are, I presume, and have been, acting
on behalf of Mr. Stone in this matter. Mr. Fergie, and all
the others for whom I act, have signified their wish to have
the indentures assigned on the terms in the original inden-
tures, which are the terms proposed by you on behalf of the

_ .
corporation and Mr. Stone. I shall be glad to know from
you if it is Mr. Stone's intention to persevere in excluding
the boys from the school. They are quite willing to give
their attendance at all reasonable times." _ _

He did not understandfrom this that his original draft was

agreed to ; hut nothing beyond this had been received con-
taining a syllable of answer to the opinion he (the town-
clerk) gave upon the effect of the alterations of the draft. That
letter being received, his reply on the day following (the
29th March) was as follows :
" In answer to your letter of yesterday, I have to state
that, when Mr. Fergie and the other parents, with the appren-
tices, met me by appointment, on the 18th instant, Mr. Fer-
gie, for himself and his son, declared, I will not cancel the

indenture, nor execute the assignment, unless the corporation
engage a proper person to teach my son exactly as Mr. Nel-
son taught him, and Mr. Stone is not that person; he is not
capable.' .Chis was carefully noted down at the time, read
over to Mr. Fergie, and confirmed by him, and afterwards it
was adopted by each of the other apprentices and his parent.
" Upon this the committee came to the resolution, that
the attendance at the schools of the apprentices who bad re-
fused to be assigned to Mr. Stones should be disallowed.
" This I communicated, by a letter, on the 19th instant,
as follows : •

" ' You have been distinctly apprised that the corporation
have been (as they still are) willing to join in an assignment
of your son's indenture of apprenticeship to the new head
master, Mr. Stone; which deed would be prepared in the
terms of the original indenture, and according to the proviso
therein for such assignment, upon a new head master being
appointed by the council.

'" As your son, acting with your approbation, has declared
his refusal to be assigned to Mr. Stone, 1 am directed by the
Education Committee of the Council to state, that it neces-
sarily follows that your son's attendance at the school cannot,
under these circumstances, be continued.'
" As however a draft assignment had been applied for, one
was at the same time transmitted by me to each party, with
a note as follows : _ _ _

" As you require the draft assignment of your son's in-
denture, I send it herewith, willing to give every information,
though after your Eon's refusal to be assigned to Mr. Stone,
it cannot be of much value, unless that determination be
altered."

" On the 23rd instant, you returned to me the draft
assignment, with alterations which I could not approve of,
and the 24th I returned it to you as follows :
" I have given every possible consideration to your alter-
ations in the draft assignment of Thomas Francis Fergie, to
the new head master of the North Corporation School; but
it appears to me that these alterations, instead of making
the draft agree with the terms of the original indenture, make
that draft materially to differ from the terms of the original
indenture. I think the draft, without the alterations, cor-
rectly expressed those terms.
" I cannot therefore approve of the alterations; and I
again transmit the draft that the subject may have any fur-
ther consideration that you may deem proper.'
" Under these circumstances, the relation of master and
apprentice stands, at least, at present repudiated by your
clients ; and this state of things, until it is altered by an as-
signment in terms correctfy settled, must continue; and
pending it, it is neither proper, nor can it answer any good
purpose, for the young men to attend the school, and it cer-
tainly will not be allowed. But to relieve you and them, you
are quite at liberty to consider such attendance as daily ten-
dered and disallowed, and that no omission therein shall pre-
judice the rights of any party."
This letter would show that every pains had been taken by
him to put the whole case before the parties, and that by re-
turning the draft the door was not yet closed against their

reconsideration.
Mr. Alderman EVANS complained of its being now set up
that the apprentices were bound to the establishment and
not to the master.
The TOWN-CLERK.—That is with regard to the education
to be taught them.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—And therefore the young men go
and make the demand upon the establishment.
The TOWN-CLERK.—Put it so; but who is to receive the
demand of the young men? The committee are not to
be there for the government of these young men ; but my
observations as to their being bound to the establishment
were made with another view.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.—The young men go there to make
a legal tender of their services.
The TowN-CLERK.--You will see how I deal with that.
I say " Go on, if you like, but I will relieve you from the
trouble of going there every day : we will consider the
tender as made every day, without prejudice to the rights of
any party." Now, if it should be found that he was wrong in
his law as to the effect of the assignment he could not help
it: but he thought that if Mr. Alderman Earle had been put
in possession of his letter of the 29th of March it would
have altered his apprehension of the case.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.-1 do not agree with you, Mr.
Town-clerk.
Mr. ASPINALL here suggested an adjournment, as it was
past three o'clock, but it was overruled.
Mr. YATES said it often happened that the state of the
law was one thing, and justice another, and he thought there
was a singular example of it on this occasion. He did not
mean to dispute the law of the Town-clerk, but he would say
this, that it was agreed, when, the apprentices were bound,
that they should be taught mathematics, classics, algebra,
and geometry.

M. GLADSTONE said it never was.
Mr. YATES said at all events it was agreed that they should
receive an education to fit them for ushers in any school in
England ; and it was a great injustice that they should be
prevented from learning those things and be taught only the
very ordinary education given in the corporation schools.
But suppose he said nothing further upon the subject, there
were laws far higher than the laws of England ; there were
the laws of God, and those laws had, in this instance, been
grosslya nd voluntarily infringed upon. (Hear.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Certainly they have.
Mr. YATES, iu continuation, said, he did not know what
were the opinions of the gentlemen of the Education Corn-
ruittee respecting the laws of the Almighty. Let them judge
for themselves, as he was there to judge for himself, what in-
fluence those laws had upon them : but it was agreed on all

hands that when they were bound, as stated by the Town-
clerk, to the corporation, that their liberty of conscience
should never be violated. But instead of this they were told
that they must learn the protestant catechism, although they
were Homan catholics. (Cries of " No, no.") It was as-
serted by Mr. Fergie that his son had been told they must
teach the catechism to other boys. (" No, no.") Well,
let that be disproved ; he was merely referring to the docu-
ment read by Mr. Eafre. He knew it was a rule that they
should not be compelled to go to church ; but the ehildreo
had been told that although they were Roman catholics, they
mush teach the Church Catechism. Now this was not fair,
and it was contrary to their rights.
Mr. BIRKETT said Mr. Yates was speaking rather to the
assignment than the memorial.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.-1I is the whole memorial he is
speaking to.
Mr. YATES.—It is to the whole memorial I am speaking.
Mr. MOLYNEUX said, Fergie, the father of one of the ap-
prentices, had told him that he was a churchman.
Mr. YATES said, the motion was that the memorial be re-
ferred to the Education Committee, and that they report
thereon. He was therefore perfectly regular in referring to
what it contained. He they: proceeded to eulogise the con-
duct of the apprentices in refusing to violate their consci-
ences ; and said they had even been driven from the schools
with violence. (No, no.) But it was not to be wondered at
that what was commenced in injustice should terminate in
oppression and tyranny.
The TOWN-CLERK said, the " violence" used was just
such gentle violence as was usual in such cases.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE did not wish to provoke any oppo-
sition, but his own opinion was that the Education Com-
mittee had, very properly, acted upon the indentures, which
former apprentices had entered into. They only wished to
substitute one man's name for another man's name ; beyond
that they did not, and bad no wish, to go ; and it was rather
too much to say, that because a former master had taught the
apprentices algebra, and so on, (which were not in the inden-
tures,) the committee were bound to teach them algebra, and
that, too, in a charity school. They should teach them as
much of the trade and occupation of a teacher in such a
school as that they were learning in, and nothing beyond
could be necessary. But he really believed this was not the
great difficulty now. The apprentices, when brought before
the committee, were asked whether they would con-
tinue in the schools, and they one and all declined to do so.
They had a sense of the difficulties which surrounded them ;
they did not know whether Mr. Stone understood algebra,
and so on, but they knew that the system of education was
so changed, that they would have great difficulty in agreeing
to it, and they therefore said they would rather have their
indentures cancelled. But out of doors they fell in with
other company. They were told that this would be a de-
lightful handle and occasion for display in the Town-coun-
cil; that it would be a fair source of perpetual embarrass..
ment and annoyance, and enable them to go on, week after
week, and month after month, frustrating the views of the
majority of the council. It was upon this ground alone that
the memorial which had been read was brought before the
council. There might be some little difference in Fergie's
case ; but even if the children were accepted, and the inden-
tures were transferred, the next step would be one of the
greatest difficulty, and he really thought it would be far
wiser for the committee to compensate them and cancel their
indentures. The children felt that, and the council never
could pass any rule that should enforce a restraint upon those
who were Roman Catholics. But he did beg and pray the
minority not to go on with this continual annoyance of the

majority of the council; he did beg and pray that they might
have a little rest—a little peace. They knew, as far as be
was concerned, that he approved, as a whole, of the course
of education now in course of establishment, though he had
endeavoured to engraft upon it some relaxation which he
thought would enable them to give some little instruction,
however slight, to the Roman Catholics who most needed it.
It was his wish, and it was also the wish of Mr. Gladstone,
and he had intimated it to the council, that if such and such
events should not happen, he was prepared to come forward
and say that others should be prepared. But how could either
he or Mr. Gladstone, who wished to open the doors to the
public generally, go on if they were harassed in this way? Give
the schools a fair trial—let the committee have six months'
trial of them at least; but if they were to have, day after
day, this eternal system of annoyance, he was sure the other
side would not answer their own end. They would do more
to perpetuate the schools upon their present system than
to suppress them. _ _

BIRKETT would not have risen if it had not been for
the remarks of Mr. Lawrence. If Mr. Lawrence had taken
the same course upon the first occasion when the opposition
was offered to the wish of the majority which carried out the
declared wishes of the inhabitants, they would not have had
this sort of work. These sort ,of proceedings were encou-
raged by reason of the lukewarmness of the friends of this
question. Mr. Lawrence had alluded to Mr. Gladstone.
Now he (Mr. Birkett) thought that Mr. Gladstone was
widely mistaken in what he said at the last meeting. How-
ever, if these sort of proceedings were to go on, he would
take the sense of the council upon it by a direct motion, for
he would move a vote of confidence in the Education Com-
mittee, and that their proceedings be not brought before the
council for six months. (Hear, hear, and " Oh, oh.")
Mr. Alderman EARLE.-01), put a hundred such notices
upon the book.

Mr. BIRKETT did not expect that Mr. Earle would thank
him for saying what he had. If ever he did, he (Mr. Birkett)
should begin to think himself much mistaken. He stood how-
ever upon this, that the town of Liverpool had, by a large
majority, sent a large majority into the council, mainly upon
this question—upon the question of protestant principle.
(Cries of " No, no,") Who said no?

Mr. MELLOR.—I do.
Mr. Alderman EARLE

—And I say " No."

Mr. BIRKETT was surprised at the exclamations of Mr.
Mellor in contradiction of him, (Mr. Birkett,) because, hav-
ing been once or twice returned by the casting vote of the
alderman, it could not be said that he represented any body;
and especially as there were only about 13 of his opinion in
the council, whilst there were 34 or 35 who held the opinions
that he (Mr. Birkett) held.
Mr. PLATT must express his gratification at what bad
fallen from Mr. Lawrence. It was in consequence of the
allusions he had made that be had entered the notice
which he (Mr. Platt) had given on the paper. (Laughter.)
He would wait till gentlemen had done laughing. They must
all acknowledge that the education question had been one of
exceeding great difficulty ; it had given the council 'great
anxiety and concern ; and although he was an advocate for
the former system, yet he felt convinced that as long as reli-
gious instruction was to he given it never could be given to
different classes in the same school. Finding that the Roman
Catholic children were virtually excluded by the present
rules, he thought their priests had no alternative but to advise
them to withdraw from the schools. They ought to be com-
plimented for following that advice instead of being found
fault with, seeing that they maintained their principles, which
many, from their poverty, might be induced to abandon. In
conclusion, he did hope that some arrangement would be
made on this question which would embrace the views of all
parties.
Mr. BOLTON asked the Town-clerk whether any of the
apprentices referred to were Roman catholics ? His reason
for asking the question was that if any of the Boman
catholics were required to attend church and teach the cate-
chism it was an act of injustice.
The TOWN-CLERK had not thought it necessary to ask the
question what religion they were. One, he believed, was a
Roman catholic. _ _ .

Mr. LAWRENCE said that no such thing had been required.
Mr. MOLYNEUX said the reading of the authorised version
of the scriptures would be expected from all; but none were
expected to attend church whose parents had a conscientious
objection to it. The parents of the children knew that re-
ligious instruction was administered to them.
Mr. EARLE asked if dissenting ministers were allowed to
attend to administer such instruction?
Mr. MOLYNEUX.—No.

Mr. "YATES asked why the returns of the number of chil-
dren attending the respective schools were not given as usual ?
Mr. PLATT replied that the omission was accidental.
Some discussion ensued as to whether Mr. Earle had moved
an amendment, and whether be had any right of reply.
Mr. BOLTON expressed himself satisfied with the Town-
clerk's explanation, and said he would withdraw the motion,
so far as he was concerned.
_ .

Mr. EARLEaii;Oil7lake any reply, and it appeared to be
the general opinion that the amendment should be put.
The council then divided, when there appeared
For the amendment . 11
Against it
The amendment was consequently lost. The following
members voted on the division :
For the amendment.—Messrs. Thornhill, Preston, Mellor,
Bright, Priestley, Yates, Jordan, Freme, Evans, Barclay,
and Earle.
Against it.—Messrs. Shaw, Shand, Copeland, Edwards,
Sands, Bolton, liae, Aspinall, J. Lawrence, Cooper, Wood,
Birkett, Gladstone, Procter, Lloyd, Parker, Jones, jun.,
Brassey, G. H. Lawrence, Platt, Harbord, R. Houghton,
Nicol, Bramley-Moore, Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor.
Mr. ASPINALL, seconded by Mr. LLOYD, moved an ad-
journment.
Mr. YATES said he would move that that part of the pro-
ceedings which related to the apprentices be referred back to
the committee for re-consideration.
Mr. EARLE seconded the amendment.
Mr. ASPINALL pressed his motion for adjournment, upon
which, after a brief conversation, amid some confusion,

Mr: YATES withdrew his motion.
The council then adjourned at a quarter to four o'clock till
eleven o'clock this day, (Friday).