The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-07-03 00:00:00

Highness;
M consider

.......

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF

ff, JULY i.

ROYAL ASSf:NT.
The Assent was given by Commission to the follow-
ing Bills I—The Siakiag Food Loan Bill, the Roche-
quer Bills Bill, the !risk Treasury Bills Bill, the Bank
of Irelead Bill, the Wool Importatioa Bill, the Irish
Stoik Transfir Bill, the Naval Stores Bill, the &lot-
DistiHark,* Drawbacks and the Scottish Malt
Duties Bill, the Coal Mica Drawbacks 8111, the Wool
Itegistery Bill, the Vagrant Laws Amendment Bill,
the Cos*, Rates Bill, the Justices of the Pease Bill,
the East India Trade Bill, the Far Trade Regulation
Hill, the Sainge Acts Amendment Bill, the British
White Herring Fishery Bill, the Irish Coal Yards
BiH, the Irish Jail Fees Bill, the Thames Lastage and
Ballastage Bill, and a large number of Private Bills.
Mr. Basootx, Mr. M ASTIR, of Galway, and others,
brought up from the Com•ons the Irish Customs
Collectort Bill, the Public Works Bill, the Captured
Slates Bill, the Acetous Acid Bill, the Irish Silk
Bounties Bill, the Muscovado Sugar Importation Bill,
anti the Cruelty to Animals Prevention Bill.—Read
a first time.

Mr. SWINSURNI4 from the Commissioners of West-
minster Bridge, preseshed the anneal accounts of the
fru:Aides of that edifies. Laid on the table.

11•111111111101 LAWS.

Lord DACRB requested leave to withdraw the
Bankrupt Laws Amendment Bill, at this advanced
Nut. of the Session, as be understood it was the Wen-
tiun of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack
to introduce a measure himself upon the subject at a
future opportarrity.
The LORD CHANCIILLOR said that be should
not Lave eousseoted to the withdrawing of the present
Bill, if he bad not been able to state that it was his in-
tention early neat Session to propose an Act to amend
the Bank!npt Laws.
Lord KING presented • Petition from the Inha-
bitants of Reading, in favour of the Bill for prevent-
ing cruelty to animals. Laid on the table.
His Lordship then presented Petitions from the In-
habitants of Lewes and of Poole, praying for • revi-
sion of the Criminal Code. Laid on the table.

The Sheerness Land• Bill, and the Irish Foundling
Hospital Bill, were read a third time, passed, and seat
to the Commons.

The Consolidated Fund Bill, the Coasting Trade
BIM, and the BritiXit Spirits Duties Bill, went respec-
tively through Committees and were reported.
The End of LAUDERDALE was understood to ask
what day the Bill for preventing Cruelty to Animals
was to be read a second time, and to express an inten-
tion of moving that their Lordships be summoned on
that day.
The Earl of SNAFTESBURY replied, Wednesday.
PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.

The Earl of DARNLEY in rising to make the mo-
tion of which he had given notice, stated that he la-
boured under greater disadvantages than usual; at the
close of a Session which bad been distinguished by
nothing more than an apparent disregard of public
business amongst their Lordships, and a disinclina-
tion on their• part •tom engage in it; whilst the other
Horse of Parliament had been occupied day after day
and night after night, with topics of public import-
ance, and particularly connected with that on which
he was about to trouble their Lordships. In addi-
tion to other disadvantages, was the absence of a
Noble Friend of his, a Noble Marquess, who alone
had endeavoured to call their Lordship's attention to
the real interests of the State. He should not have
been deprived of the piwetful support of that Noble
Marquees, had he tot 'postponed his motion in com-
pliance with the request of a Noble Earl, high in his
Majesty's Councils : yet ohe advantage had resulted
from that postponement, and that was, the pledge
given by the Vote of the other House, that a more
extended system of econoniy than that hitherto
pursued should be at last adopted.—(Hear, hear.)—
Ile should now endeavour to impress upon their
Lordships that notwithstanding the apparent prospe-
rity in this metropolis, the improved state of a great
branch of our domestic industry, the silk manufac-
turers, and the statements of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that there was no•falling off in the revenue,
the factlliat a well regulated machine should continue I
in 'motion was no proof that its main spring or primate
mobile was not out of -order. •So it was with the
main source of our prosperity. - He•should also endea- I
sour to persuade their Lordships to carry an ear-
nest; renronstrativaAddreis to she Throne, entreating
hi! Majesty. to interpose ere it was too late in behalf
of economy; and- he- should lastly .attempt to prove
that reductions could be effected .to a great extent.—
The Noble iffirt`then adverted to the distressed state
of Agrietaittre, that.main Spring which gave energy
to the whole, and read various parts of the Commons'
Report on that snirject. Hitherto the rents had been
paid oat of the capital or credit of the tenants ; the
tales had altar been paid, and there had consequently
been no detakation in the revenue. But it was impos-
sible that mauls should be able for another year to
continue to spay their rents outof their capital or credit.
—He admitted that the difficulties of the Agriculturists
hal net arisen entirely from the amount of taxation ;
and contended that the repeal of the Agricultural
Horse Tax would not produce relief to the amount of
more thah two per cent. on the rents of land through-
out the 'kingdom. It was not the direct taxes which
weighed down farmers, but those which pressed upon
them in a. variety of ways, affecting all they had to boy
and even•the price of mensal labour. He hoped that no-
thing would Wile* their Lordships not to keep faith with
the public creditor, whatever might have been his
pans in consequence of the alteration in the value of
money, but if agricqtare should fail-to any great
extent, no man could be bold enough to say to what
extent it might not be necessary to carry the remedy.
lie hoped such a time .would not arrive, and the meet
effectual' way of delaying it, would be to reduce
the public establishments, and consequent,/ the
amount of the taxes. He would not confuse the
House and himself by entering minutely into the de-
tails
of the reductions, which, in his opinion, might
Le effikted Ia• the different departments, but be hoped
he ihoutd-be abbe to state enough to shew that they
might econtimieleby Millions. The inttepartmest to
which besinkild allude was one to whielt he was less
104* to apply_tbe principle of rAmelon thaw say
other, if the eiremmliaancoo if the seautry Would per-
snit the choke. Even as it was, if he thisoglit.the pre-

. .
A. - .

_ .
tm a datil pArer, be wool& boose of the last to propose
any reduction of the estimates. He found that the
Italy; la Its resent andlitea, staid as high as was
reqairod to meet the shames of say possible war, and
hen it would be ansaadhil net to give the Ministers
credit for the redaction which bad already taken place
in that &penmen elan the termiaatioa of hostilities.
We bad at title mseamit it for 'series 84 sail of the line,
67 frigates, rl ordered to be balltoted 13 to be repaired.
—This was a power exceeding in amount the united
force of the Preach and American navies, the French
having but 68 sail of the lies, and the Americans 11.
He would not deny bet that it might be well to keep
up a seperabuadaat force, yet, taking into conildera-
lion the state of oar haunts, and the difficulty of
manning the ships la any emergency. he was of
opinion. that without eadangerieg any littered of the
State, a material reduction might take place ; be had
heard that it was in contemplation to discontinue the
navy yard at Deptford, for which no less a sum had
been voted by Parliament than 141,3091. The coun-
try was burthened with an annual charge foi timber
and building materials, with 891,6841. Without in
the least eidaegeriag her save superiority, half a
Willett might be lopped 4 from these items only.
Another item referee& to a great satiated work which
seder more prosperous circumstances, be would not
be disposed to limit, he alluded to the basin and
dock.ysrd at Sheerness. The saving which be would
propose it the Naval Department siege, amounted to
800,0011. In the army considerable retreachments
might still be made. Theßstablishosent of the Horse
(lauds cost the nation 316,0001., be would propose
that it should be reduced to 80,0001., which
might be effected without interfering with the
splendour of the Crown.—(Hear.) I. the Cavalry
a saving of 140,0001. was practicable, and, upon
the whole establishment of the Army, it was not too
much to say that two millions sterling might be saved.
Even if it was reduced bat one-tenth, the savings to
the public would be 400,000!. There was another
item, the necessity of which he could not comprehend :1
he saw no reason why they should go on multiplying
barracks throughout the kingdom; 260,5004 was to
be laid out for this purpose, of this 100,0001. might
be saved. The Commissariat might be reduced one-
fifth, and the Army Extraordinaries one-tenth, which
would make a saving of 700,0001. With respect to
the Ordnance Department, be doubted whether be
could propose any reduction, but he thought, that if
Ministers were sincere in their professions of economy,
they might, by the sale of certain lands and buildings,
now of no use, accomplish a reduction of 100,0001. in
the Ordnance Department. The Miscellaneous Ser-
vices were estimated at two millions and a half; a re-1
diction of only 10 per cent. would give 250,0001. He
next came to the Civil List. It was true that Royalty
ought to be surrounded with splendour, when thepros-
parity of the country permitted. but, in times of diffi-
leaky and distress, he knew of nothing which could
teed more to satisfy the people with their condimioa
ithaa to see an example of retrenchment set by the
highest peens is the State. Queen Anne had made
a sacrifice to the aocessitios of her people, and it
might be said of such acts that—
" They became
Tbrovel Monarch better than his Crown."

He did not mean to make any invidious allusion to the
approaching ceremony of the Coronation, or to his
Illajesty's intention of visiting any part of his domi-
nions, bat the Civil List he thought might be reduced
to 130,000/. The expense of collecting the Revenue
might be diminished perhaps half a million, and the
whole subject was well dethviog of the most serious
consideration of Parliament. The Nuble Lord con-
cluded, after some general observations, in which be
strongly inculcated the necessity of economy, parti-
cularly at the present moment, by moving the lotion--
log Address :
" That an humble Address be presented to his Ma-
jesty, praying that he will be graciously pleased
take into his immediate and most serious consideration
the difficulties and distresses of his faithful subjects,
and especially of that very important description of
them whose wealth and subsistence more immediately
depend on agriculture ; and that his Majesty will be gra-
ciously pleased to give such directions as to h ajesty's
wisdom shall seem expedient to diminish the public
expenditure in all the great Departments of the State,
both civil and military, as the only effectual means of
permanently relieving those difficulties and distresses
which, if not principally occasioned, are at least ma-
terially aggravated by the pressure of accumulated
taxation."

The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he would not enter
into the extensive field of discussion which the Noble
Lord bad opened, because many of the subjects which
he had brought under their consideration, would indi-
vidually require a whole night's debate ; besidee, there
were, perhaps, circumstances in his mere situation
which disqualified him from discharging such • task
as he could wish : he lamented as mach as any matt
the distress of the country, and particularly of the
Agricultural interests. He agreed in opinion with the
Committee of the other House, that no legislative mea-
sure was capable of affording substantial relief. Ile
would go farther, and state, that by legislating on
such subjects, not only would they do no giod, but
probably much harm. The agricultural interests un-
doubtedly laboured under great ditreulties, but they
were not to be laid to the account of taxation, for in
the other parts of Europe, and in America, the distress
was as great. In Russia, Poland, and those •parts of
Germany which were connected with Poland, the agri-
cultural distress was much greater, and in America it

was as great as In this country. Witbont entering
into particulars, it mightbe ascribed in general terms
to the artificial circumstances, not of this country.
but of the world, arising from the late war,
which affected property in a more extraordinary
degree than any other contest. But it was never to be
forgotten, that these evils had a tendency to work their
own care, and that the disadvantage of legislating
would be to interfere with these causes, and prevent
the natural order of things from taking place. He
would allow that economy was the only safe remedy
as far as it could be safely carried into effect; but the
Noble Lord did not do justice to the tiovernment for
the reductions they had already effected. As long
ago as 1817, a Commission was established to inquire
iota the Gaston.% by which a saving of 80,0001. a
year was filketvi.sed searing was is progress of 20,008,
-year more. Upbn &Dodger sobje4Arhich he was aware'
vas a moot important one, be meant the Army ante

Nprty, he agreed frith the Noble Earl, that every
reduction ought to be made which was consistent with
the safety of the State. But then the Noble Earl did
mot always take practicability into hie calculation is
his plan of economy. He had senimed up, for in-
stance, our naval force, and stated that 84 sail of the
line were sufficient for our nairal establishment, with-
out incurring further expeese by building others, and
wasting money on dock yards, Ise. Now, he (Lord
Liverpool) acknowledged that the number of sail of I
the line was inefficient, but then be was mot to suppose
that force could be always stationary. if be bad
referred to accounts which were open to the inspection
of every Noble Lord, he would have found that the
ship building was necessary to supply the leas by
wear and tear, and the decay and ruin which ships were
liable to when laid up in dock, as well as when employ-
ed. Like all earthly things, ships must wear oat; but if
the machine never grew old, they could do without
ship building ; as, however, this was unfortunately
not the case, there must, as long as we bad • navy at
all, be an expense incurred by the wasting and wear-
ing out of ships. As to the principles laid down by
the Noble Earl, he perfectly agreed with him that
whatever could be done in the way of reduction,
swept to be done, both in the Army and Navy;
►lsee to his view of what was practicable, he bad not
. _

I,lkken into account the balf-p-ay and allowances arising
out of a state of war, and necessarily fixed for a cer-
tain time on the country. It was evident he did not
recollect bow great a part of our expenditure was a dead
expenditure, and even to an extent which amounted to
more than the whole weight of our peace establish.
meat is 1792. Besides, the increase of pay in the Army
and Navy accounts for another great portion of our ex-
penditure ; and however such things might be left out
of view in general theories of economy, they could not
be dispensed with when we came to the practice. He
however repeated, that what could be done ought to be
done ; and allowed there were special and peculiar cir-
cumstances in the state of the country' which ought to
induce us to make extraordinary efforts towards reduc-
tion.—(Hear, bear.)—This he was perfectly ready to
allow. An Address had been agreed to in the other
House, which was an evidence that government were
willing to do all in their power to further the progress
of economy ; and he n•as sure it would be a matter of
satisfaction to the country at large, that a similar Ad-
dress should be recorded on the Journals of that House.
The Noble Lord concluded by moving, that an humble
Address be presented to his Majesty, assuring him lb at
ithe House perceived with great satisfaction the general
revision which had taken place, in consequence of his
Majesty's commands, in the department of the Customs,
and the reductions which followed, and that they ac-
knowledge his Majesty's goodness, and entreated that
an inquiry might be instituted into the several depart-
ments of the Civil Govermnent, with a view of reducing
the number of persons employed on account of the in-
crease of business during the war, as of diminish-
ing the amount of salaries since 1797 ; and praying that
his Majesty ►could direct every possible saving to be
made in all the departments of the State.
The Earl of tiROSVENOR had no hesitation in
giving the preference to the Address proposed by his
Noble Friend, as he had found that little dependance
could be placed on the promises made by the Noble
Earl opposite to enforce economy in the public expen-
diture. He denied that a saving of 1,500,000/.
had b!en effected, if this year were compared with
the first and second year of peace. He complained
of the continual increase of the unredeemed and un-
funded debt. We had entered on the seventh year of
peace. could we expect to double that number before
war sh.ould call upon us for fresh exertions ? And
hail we made such use of those years of peace as to
enable us to meet war with recruited means ? One
source of additional expense was the approaching
Coronation. It bad been estimated ■t 100,0001. but
it was apparent, and it had indeed since been ad-
mitted that it would exceed that sum. He consi-
dered it au unnecessary expense for nothing could es-
tablish his Majesty more firmly on the throne than
what had already taken place ; his having appeared
as King before Parliament, his having taken the
oaths, and their Lordships having done the same.—
lie thought the measure unnecessary and injudicious,
and that it ought not to hare been recommended
by the advisers of the Crown under present circum-
stances. For even supposing that the law was clear,
and declared in positive terms that the Queen had
no right to be crowned, still as • matter of grace,
he thought it was injudicious to recommend a Co-
ronatint► from which she should be excluded. The
ground on which her right was contested was the
single precesieet of Henry the Seventh having been
crowned alonicwhen it was supposed that his mar-
riage with his Queen had been celebrated. But this
ground must fail, for the marriage of that monarch
had only taken place after his Coronation, so that
titre was at the time no Queen to be crowned. He
had heard also that the procession at the approaching
Ceremony was to be hemmed in on all sides by
soldiers. That would be the greatest insult which
could be put both upon the King and people of
this country.. It would seem to imply that the peo-
ple would HI behave to their Monarch if they were
not prevented, and that the Monarch could nut trust
himself to his subjects. It would make him appear
life as Oriental despot moving in the midst of his
satraps. He should wish to see the Monarch sac-
rounded by hosts of hearts and not by hosts of
bayonets. He knew it would be said that the pre-
sence of troops added to the splendour of the page-
ant, and be had no objection to their being used
for that purpose; but let them be so placed as not
to convey the idea that the Monarch distrusted his
people. As to the money which would be expended
upon the ceremony, if it trebled the amount of the
sum now estimated, it would not be grudged by the
people, if it was not attended by the circumstances
which be had mentioned. With regard to the
amended Address, it was not such a one as he was
disposed to be satisfied with ; yet at the same time
he was glad to find that the Noble Earl was so
far alive to the distresses of the country, as not to
hare thought it necessary to move the previous wt.
tion upon the Motion of his Noble Friend.
Lord MELVILLE catered into a short statement to
sbew, that in the naval department the Scale of ex-
pense was . so higher than an eiheient naval farce
• ,aade necessary. He stated, that of the 84 ships of
he line, only 40 .could be reckoned on as durable

• • I

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Alpe. Re added, that this year great redactioes had
roes made, sad greater were contemplated, aad that
the weeks at Sheerness were reduced to one-half t►e
previous expeace, bet the greater part of w►at
bad fallen from t►e last Noble Rani was quite Inn.
levant.
The Ravi of CARNARVON lOW fi fulmar of
t►e original Address, as being the more plata, distiack,
and siady of the two, aid eemeeeded; that t►e
chase is t►e value of t►e carrettobad produced the
greater part of the embarrassments of .t►e country,
sad its evil consequences could sot be obviated with-
oat a vast diminution of the tamale*.

Lord CALTHORPB supported the Asin•dment.
Tie Earl of DARNLEY replied, sad the Amend.
■eat was agreed to without a division.
Lord SIDMOLITH moved that the Irish Chancery
Courts Regulation Bill ►e committed that day three
months, which after a few words from the Lord Chan.
cellor and the Marquess of Downshirs, was agreed
to.—Adjourned.

—.....
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Mossay, JULY It.

The House was summoned to the Haase of Lords to
hear the Royal Assent given by Commissios to several
public sad private Bills (for which see the prompedisgs
in the Lords.)
Mr. HARBORD presented a Petition from several
Parishes in Semenetabire,prayieg for a re►isioa of the
Criminal Catie.—Ordered to he printed.
The Bankruptcy Courts Bill went through a Com-
mittee; the Report was received, and ordered to be
taken into cousideratioa to-morrow (this day.)
Mr. ARBUTHNOT presented a variety of papers
relating to the increase of the Salaries is Public
Offices.—Ordered to be priated.

Mr. ORATPAN presented a Petition from am 'ladle'.
dual, praying the House to inquire into the ciream-
stance•s respecting a refusal to renew the Patent for
the Crow-street Theatre in Dnblin.—Ordsred to be
printed.
The Captured Slaves Bill was read a third time and
passed.
Mr. CLIVE moved an Address to his Majesty,
praying for a Copy of the Ninth Report of the Com-
missioners appointed to enquire illtAittattlestch Courts
of Justice.—Ordered.

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IMPERIAL PARLIAMEN7'. !est wrailitillatle uestotut, II sr ea ' ritp ' Neey, 'be agreed with the Noble Earl, that every ships. He added, that this year great redactitios had against the w'
--..m...- tie a tiatil sorer, he woad Woolworths lest to propose reduction ought to be made which was consistent with been made, asd greater were contemplated, and that reproaches of
MUSE OF LARDS.--Mexeav, Jinx t. any reduction of the estimates. He found that the the safety of the State. Bet then the Noble Earl did the weeks at Sheerness were reduced to one-half the
the arrears,
ly; la Its proms etsoffidess, stood as high as was not always tape practicability into hie calesiatios is privies* exposes, bet the greater part of what
ROTAI7ASSENT. samilked to meet the shames of say possible war, and his plan of economy. He had summed up, for le- bad fallen from the last Noble Earl was quite lyre. bad shows
Litwin was given by Commission to the follow-
here it would be unearth net to give the Ministers stance, our naval force, and stated that 84 sail of the levant.
I—The Sinking Vaud Lean Bill, the Beebe-- - sauce weir
Is Bill, the mai Treasury Bills Bill, the Bank credit for the redaction which bad already taken place line were sufficient for our steal establishment, with- The Earl of CARNARVON ipoki 6 favour -of already rimier
in that depeetmest Also the eerrsisatioa of hostilities. out incurring further expense by building others, and the original Address, as being the more plain, distil**.
id Bill, the Wool Importation Bill, the Irish
We had at dilemma lit ferneries 84 sail of the line, wasting money on dock yards, i.e. Now, he (Lord sad ashitly of the two, and- eestesded; that tba- . brother.
ransfir Bill, the Naval Stores Bill, the Boot- Mr. Snow
67 frigates, t'l ordered to behulitosod 13 to be repaired. Liverpool) acknowledged that the number of sail of *lmage in the Tattoo( the curreidthad produced the
tillerits Drawbacks and the Scottish Malt
—This was a power exceeding in amount the united the line was sellielent, but then be was sot to suppose greater part of the embarrasemests et die country. . 1818 "wed a
fill, the Coal Mien Drawbacks Bill, the Wool Highness; his
fere' of the French and American navies, the French that force could be always stationary. if be bad and its evil consequences could sot be obviated with-
y Bill, the Vagrant Laws Amendment Bill, be cossidered
having but 58 sail of the Use, and the Americans 11. referred to accounts which were open to the Inspection oat a vast diminution of the tamale*.
sty Rates Bill, the Justices of the Pease Bill, Mr. HONG
He would not deny bat that it might be well to keep of every Noble Lord, he would have found that the Lord CALTHORPE supported the Atimodasent. is'4
India Trade Bill, the Fur Trade Regulationl do any act nab
up a superabundant force, yet, taking into conSidera- ship building was necessary to supply the lees by The Earl of DARNLEY replied, and the Ames& ' • or in justice.
Salvage Acts Amendment Bill, the British 1
tion the state of oar finances, and the difficulty of weer and tear, and the decay and ruin which ships were meat was agreed to without a division.
erring Fishery Bill, the Irish Coal Yards fonaded la si
manning the ships la any ensergeacy. he was of liable to when laid up in dock, as well as when employ- Lord SIDMOLITH moved that the Irish Chancery Irish Jail Fees Bill, the Thames Lastage and tete.
opinion, that without endangering any interest of the ed. Likeall earthly things, ships must wear out; but if Courts Regulation Bill be committed that day three ?
p Bill, and a large number of Private Bills. A. 1114
State' a material reduction might take place ; be had the machine newer grew old, they could do without months, which after a few words from the Lord Chan-
issootx, Mr. MARTIN, of Galway, and others, read a third tl
heard that it was in cealemplatios to discontinue the ship building ; as, however, this was unfortunately tenor and the Marquess of Downshirs, was agreed
up from the Commons the Irish Customs be owned Om
navy yard at Deptford, for which so lees a sum had not the case, there must, as long as we bad a nary at to.—Adjourned.
re Bill, the Public Works Bill, the Captured eireemseances
been voted by Parliament than 141,3091. The eosin- all, be an expense incurred by the wasting and wear- —um—
ill, the Acetate Acid Bill, the Irish Silk without a Mei
try was burthened with an annual charge for timber ing out of ships. As to the principles laid down by HOUSE OF COMMONS.—Monday, JULY It.
Bill, the Muscovado Sugar Importation Bill, that they mhos
and building materials, with 891.5841. Without in the Noble Earl, he perfectly agreed with him that
The House was summoned— to the House if Lords to
Cruelty to Animals Prevention Bill.—Reed
Au. Loam IhlllAnuarisir Lar naval suerioritr. half a whatever could be done in the way of reduction. .Mr. OEM
ill.asma ail Milt

against

grant -
bad shown that the ilisstriess
stance, receive this sum lay a vote for 3,200 L, as be
already received 2,800 L a year more than his younger
bathers.
Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW said, be had in the year
1818 voted against the larger sum for his Royal
Highness; but be thought that 18,0001. might fairly
be considered as as ootilt.
Mr. MONCK said, we were not in circumstances to
do say act which was net founded either in necessity
or is justice. The present Bill, be thought was
*ended in neither. He should oppose the Bill in
MM.
Lord A. HAMILTON said, that if the Bill wefe
read a third time, be should move for a resolution to
be entered on the ;aerials of the House, stating thel
cireaussiances under which the present Bill originated.i
without a Message from the Crown, and declaring
that they should sot be drawn into a precedent.
Mr. BROUGHAM biped, that as he was not in the
Hesse ea Saturday, be would be allowed to offer an
explaitatioa of the alleged delay, which bad taken
piano is making her Majesty's claim to be crowned.
Time Noble Marquess bad stated the delay to be about
two months from the time that Ministers bad intimated
their own opinion and their sows intention on the rub-
To show the inaccuracy of this statement, it
would be necessary for him to call the attention of
the Hewes to dates. Os the 21st May, a question was
put by his Hon. Friend, the Member for Reading (Mr.
Monck) which was answered by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer; and in the course of the conversation
which followed, the Noble Marquess stated his opi-
nion. Something had been said respecting an autho-
rity for her Majesty to attend the Coronation ; but it
was clear that there was no necessity for any such au-
thority, as her Majesty had a right as a subject to at-
tend the ceremony as a spectator. The Noble Mar-
quess also said, that there was no right so clear as that
cf the Crown with respect to this subject ; and that
the Coronation of the Queen Consort depended upon
the grace and favour of the King. He (Mr. B.) at
that time protested against the doctrine of the Noble
Marquess. In candour, however, he must say that he
added he had not made up his own mind on the legal
question.—(Hear, hear, from the Marquess of London-
derry.)--He admitted this; and that he then pretti-
ed against the doctrine of the Noble Marquess, lest
his silence on that occasion should be construed into
assent. The Noble Marquess said also that Ministers
were not prepared to advise the King to grant the
Coronation of her Majesty as a favour. This then
was what bad taken place on the 21st May. It was
sot the duty of her Majesty's Law Officers to pot in
her claim immediately upon this. It was their duty
to wait her Majesty's orders, as they were not her re-
volvable advisers like the Ministers of the Crown.—
Besides. as the Coronation had been appointed in the
preceding year, and bad been postponed, it became
proper to wait until there was almost a certainty of
itsacteally taking place. The proclamation appoint-
ing the ceremony this year was dated the 6vh of Juee;
and inserted in the Gamine en the 12th. The Memo-
rial claiming her Majesty's right to be crowned was
settled at his (Mr. Brougham's) Chambers eleven days
afterwards, and upon a 'abject of such great import-
ance he was sot disposed so take any great I.l.une to
himself for a delay of eleven days, even hail that not
(as it bad) been partially ceased by the indisposition
of his Hos. and Learned Friend (1-4 hashington.)—
Thebelidays bad also intervened, and the British Mu-
seum was shut, to which place access was required for
the purpose of making some searches connected with
the subject. At that Establishment, however, he ad-
mitted that be hai received every courtesy and atten-
tion from one of the Officers ; but he (Mr. B.) should
not name him, as be thought the naming him would
do him so good. The Memorial was completed on t.-
23d of of Jule, being little more than a month front
the 21st of May, and he submitted whether, under all
the circumstances, this was an extraordinary delay.—
The Memorial was sent in on the 25th ; and as vet no
answer bad been returned to it. There were now se-
venteen days to intervene before the Coronation, but
there was ample time to alter the arrangements, and
yet keep strictly within precedents. There was as
instance on record, of a proclamation giving only 16
days notice of the Coronation itself ; and another, of
an alteration in the arrangements, and being ordered
only two days before the appointed day. He trusted
the House would excuse hlm for making these obser-
vations, as he was anxious to chew that there had not
been any improper or unatcessary delay in making her
Majesty's claim.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, he had not
intended any reflection on her Majesty's legal advisers
in their professional character. He bad merely con-
trasted the rapidity with which they had expected an
answer, with the slowness of their own movements in
makiaga legal claim.--(Hear, bear.)—lt was long since
that he bad spoken of the rights by which the Crown
was bound, and the favour which it might either grant
or withhold; and he had then stated his own opinion.
that the Queen bad no legal right to be crowned. The
flat of May, which bad been particularly alluded to by
the Hon. and Learned Member, was not the only occa-
sion on which the opinion of his Majesty's Ministers
had been intimated to the Queen. Between that day
and the 21st of June, her Majesty addressed a letter to
the principal Minister, the Earl of Liverpool, desiring to
beinformed what arrangements had been made for her
eenvesience, and who were appointed as her attendants
on the approach* solemaity. An official answer was
returned, stating that it was a. right of the Crown to
give or withhold the order for :wt. Majesty's Corona-
tion, and that his Majesty would be advised nut to snake
any order for her Majesty s participation in the arrange-
ments. The Queen rejoined, insisting on her right, and
declaring that she should attend the Coronation unless
she were absotweely prevented. A respectful, but equally
peremptory answer was returned to her Majesty, repeat-
ing the legal right of the Crown, and declaring that the
former saswer must be understood as amounting to a
prohibition of her attendance. These proceedings
clearly showed that her Majesty was fully aware of the-
cones* intended to be taken by the lioyerninent; and
returning to what passed on the 31st of May, he should
only observe that altboogh the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber (Mr. Brougham) protested against his (the Mar-
quess's) construction of the law, lie did not lay down
aiv counter-law, orevln Oats diat.his own legal opinion
had been formed upon the subject. Under these dr-
conistsatces it certainly was rather onfair that the Go-
vernment was to be lammed in the Eloise. and at a time
when it wee highly probable that no Minister would be
rresent. There was ott Satureey a %ie.:nide:int 1114t1101

e

about the Hon. and Leained Mew
as if there bad been on the part al
denial °finder. Now, with them
*use, he would ask whether it was set
Ministers over the cosi% and blame
delay. Respecting the bearing of her Ma-
jedy's Law Ofilders hew, the Privy Council in sup
of the claim, he had to state to the House, that this lad
been asked that very morning for the first time. A me-
morial, dated on Saturday last, had that morning been
received from her MajWy, addressed to the Kiitg, and
desiring to be Ward byter Counsel in rapport of Ad
claim. This however was informally addressed, it be-
ing addressed to the King is his Sovereign capacity, sad
not to the King in Council. It would have skews •
want of respect to her Majesty's claim, if, when it had
been formally presented, it was not referred to the legal
Officers of the Crown. Both applications were
equally informal ; bet they had both been attended to.
Upon the first, her Majesty had been informed that no
directions would be gives so include ber in the arras 4
meats: and with respect ao that which had bees NW
this morning, he had to inform the House that it was
immediately laid before his Majesty, who bad gives di-
rections that the Queen sblisid be heard bz berlswyirs
before the Privy Council—{Hear, hear)--4t being lest
clearly ascertained, that this was no right ; but was a
grace and favour. This be mentioned to shew that there
really bad been no delay on the part of Oovetenteat.
and to justify the course they bad taken. He bad stated
that his Majesty had done that which be was sot
to do, in giving way that the Queen should be heard
fore the Conseil; and in conclusion, be had only to as-
sore the House that these observations were made in
self-defence, and sot for the purpose of imputing blouse
to her Majesty's legal Advisers.
Mr. DENMAN was not aware that there had been any
thing violent in his manner on Saturday last; but if
there had. be regretted it. He certainly. thought her
Majesty's advisers bad a right to complain that no an.
swer had been sent to the Memorial from Monday to Sa-
turday last. The application itself, he contended, it
would have been improper to make until the actual cele-
bration of the solemnity had become morally certain.
With respect to the former application, alluded to by
the Noble Marquess, he believed the Noble Marquess
would pay him end his Learned Friends the compliment
to believe that they lead not prepared it ; in fact, it bad
been presented while they were on their Circnits, and
they of course waited fur her Majesty's personal inures-
duns on the subject. It bad been represented that Iva
l(Mr. 1).) had said, the exclusion of her Majesty's .mitt
from the Liturgy was of itselfa warning that she would
not be crowned. He was not aware that he had eveir
male any such okservation. If he had, it must have
been passing and incidentally. as be did not see that
the exclusion from the Liturgy necessarily led to as
exclusion from the Coronation. With respect to the
delay that hail taken place on the subject, he had noes.
cuse to offer, as he was satisfied the blame was sot to
be attributed to himself or his Learned Friends; bat as
the Noble Marquess had stated that his observations
were made in self-defence, and without any desire of
imputing any such blame, he (Mr. D.) should not trou-
ble the House with any further remarks, especially as
her Majesty's claim was now in a train of legal exami-
nation before the Privy Council. _ _ _

Mr. BROUUHAM in explanation, confirmed the
statement of his Honourable and Learned Friend, that
her Majesty's fint application was originally unknown
to them. _ _

The question was then put that the Bill should be
►eed a third time.

Mr. BERNAL moved as Amendment for excluding
the arrears. In form, it was for altering the effect of
the Bill from 1816 to Itti'l.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw: and the
Honse divided upon Mr. Beauut.'s amendment, when
there appeared :--
For the amendment,33. —Against it,94.—Majoeity, 6 I,
The Bill was then read a third time.

On re-entering the tiallery we found
Lord A. HAMILTON on his legs, but frost the
very great disturbance occasioned by the return of
stran.ers to their places, as well as from the noise in
the hotly of the House. we were unable to collect his
Lordship's observations. The Noble Lord (as we
understood him) concluded by moving a Resolution
(to be entered on the Journals,) expressive of Hs
dissent from the late proceedings with respect to the
°rant to the Duke of Clarence as irregular, and de-
claring that any provision for the junior branches of
the Royal Family ought to be preceded either by a
Message from the King to Parliament, or an Address
from Parliament to the King.
After a few words from the Marquess of LONDON-
DERRY, the Resolution was put, and negatived with-
out a division.—The Bill was then passed.
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY rose to b►ing forward
his motion, for a Copy of the Warrant issued in aid.
of the Preventive Service, ois the Weymouth and the
Isle of Portland Station, by which a woman named
Gibbs was most indecently and improperly searched,
and under which a clergyman was disturbed and in-
jured while addressing his congregation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after
a few words which were totally inaudible in the Dal-
lery moved the previous question.
After a few words from Mr. BENNET,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that if the Hon. Member would make application to
the Treasury, he would take care to afford him every
information on the subject.
Sir J. SEABRIOHT thought it would be more ad.
visable for Members to make private inquiry before'
they brought such subjects before the Home. He'
himself had frequently had grievances laid before him,
but upon applying to the proper offices, he had gene-
really received the most satisfactory answers.—(Hear,
hear.)--He must say, that statements of this nature
did serious injury to the country, but wore particularly
to the military department.
Sir W. DE CRESPIONY then withdrew his mo-
tion.

Mr. P. BUXTON presented a petition from two
Ladies, named Mrs. Bevan and Mrs. Harris (as we un-
derstood) stating that they were the wives of officers
who had served fur a great length of time (one of them
40 years) in the Navy; that their husbands liJvlng
been at different periods seized with insanity (one of
thew at %Valcheren in Itso9), they (the Ladies) con-
tinued to receive the full half pay (their husbands tie-
ing provided for by Government) until Itll9, when
they received notice that they were to receive in future
only half the usual half pay, the other half going to
the support of their husbands. The Honourable
Member proceeded to state the great distress to which
these Ladies were reduced, and observed, that when
they complained, they were told that they might re-
ceive the full half pay, on the condition of their under-
taking to support their husbands.
The SPEAKER made some remarks npon the irre-
gularity of the Petition, it being a claiM fur pees-
' Mari relief.
•
,• After a few words from Mr. Banker, Sir J. Y..rlte.
i• Lord Mr IV. Wyen, Sir U. torlibltra, Lord

N,

A. Masihos, the Marquess of Londonderry, Mr. Bee
tom, Mr. Breeden and the Speaker,
Mr. CALCRAFT recommended the Hon. Member
to withdraw the Petition for the present, and bring it
•forward the next day in another shape.
The Petition was then withdrawn.
Mr. O. BENNET presaged a Petition from Jane
Dawson Doubleday, of Nottingham, against delays in
the Court of Chancery.—Ordered to lie on the table.
LOTTERY RILL.
The Report oa the Lottery Bill was brought up,
sad the Bill ordered to be read a third time this day.
EXTRA POST RILL.
The Report on this Bill being brought up,
Mr. CALCRAFT objected to the Bill as likely to
produce mach inconvenience to mercantile men.
Mr. N. CALVERT said, that as the expense and
hem of the experiment would necessarily fail on the
individuals who proposed to make it, be thought that
the trial might Is made.

Mr. MAIIERLY defended the conduct of the Com-
mittee. The Committee were of opinion that the ex-
periment (night to be toed, in the hope of a better
one being in time adopted.
Mr. P. MOORS said he weld oppose the further
progress of the Bill.
Mr. F. LEWIS said, that if the experiment were
wonky of being made, it ought to be made by the
Post-otice. He saw so reason fee creating a sew ii-
tablisbusent, of embarking id a new adventure, but
above all, of creating a new rite of postage.
The House then divided on tine Bill.
For the Bill, 31—Against it, 39—Majority against
the Bill, 8.

—.„,.
. N. . •
animok _i,* -' •.. ..'" •45 ta ' ' : . _ . ..... • :A . • !Kir ijok_'ilr ' ''''''
•.'
against the wishes, and almost is the tie* of th . :1 115 :ere ni. nil at° "
reproaches of the ?mph.. He should' rote &Ors' milifsom
an
ability:
the 'rovers, and lie bad as objection to the
facts beim the House
grant of 6,0001. a year; ail the Member for Aberdeen
rather hart to call MI
bad shows that the illutriesi claimant-would. in lab- theta for the delay.
_I