The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-04-13 00:00:00

" The Cense for 'Aids HAMPDEN fell in tAe and SYDNEY- dird on the Segrold!"

LVPRIII.II6 PIRLIAM&Yr.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT said if the position of the
lion. Member was correct, the sooner the House re-
scinded its resolution urn the subject the better. It
was well known that at the beginning of every Ses-
sion the Howie came to a resolution declaring the in-
terference of a Peer respecting the election of a Member
of Parliament to a Breach of Privilege; and if such a
resolution could not hr enforced, the voting it was a
mere Lace. if the lion. Member had even concurred
in such a resolution, knowing it could not he enforced,
he had not regarded the dignity of the House.
Mr. WYNNE explained. •
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided ; when there appeared for the amend.
latent 33.—Against it b2.—Majority against the
amendment 49.

HOUSE.OF COMMONS.—TnuksotT, Aram 11.

Mr. P. MOORE presented a Petition from die Vicar,
Churchwardens, and Inhabitant, of the Parish of the
Hay Trinity, in the City of COrentry, praying that
the Catholic might not be admitted into Political
Power.—Ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. LAM BTON presented a Petitido from the Be-
side's Freeholders of the Borough of Lyme Regis. in
Dorsefshire. stating, that from the time of Ed-
ward the First, moil the year 1727, this Elective
Franchise for that Borough was in the re idenaFree-
holders ; but that at the latter period the right of
voting became vested is the Corporation, by a 462
sifts of the House. That the Bor►►ugh has low be-
come a seat of patronage fur a Peer of the Beam, who,
by his sek influence, castes his ow■ relations to bit
returned ; and that, ronsequently, the inhabitants
have no share in the representation. The Petitioners
prayed that the House would take their case into eon-
sideratioss, sod afford them such relief as they might
be considered entitled to. The Hon. ilentbrr said,
that the subject of the Petition was of the highest int-
parlance; but th it at present he should merely move
tharthe Petition hr brought lip.
Mr. iItIBHOUSE thought his lion. Friend, the Mem-
ber for Durham, had not done altogether right in con-
fining himself to moving that the petition be brought
up. The House, in a ease like the present (in which
the Petitioners complained of the interference of a
Peer in matters of Election), onght to refer the peti-
tion to a Committee of Privileges. It was stated in
a petition addressed to that Monte in the year 1791,
that 1:►I individuals returned a majeri!y of that
House ; and the assertion was not then contra
It was alto a short time since stated in smother peti-
tion that the late Sir John Johnstone had by his wili
left two seats in that Mom to cer•ain inolividnais, and
an extract oldie will was inserted in the Petition.
The Houourable Member after several other observa-
tions upon the saute subject, concluded by moving
that the Petition be referred to a Committee of Pri-
vileges.
Sir J. (MAHAN! opposed the amendment. The
right of voting for this Borough haul been decided by
law several years ado. It was nut true that the seats
for the Borough in question were filled by relations
or dependants of the Noble Lank alluded to. They
were filled by men of the highest respectability in
the kingdom; and it was well known that litany Hon.
Members on the other side of the House were returned
by the inflotenee of Peers. .
Mr. 11l ItST considered that the House was hound
to refer the Petition to a Committee of privil.eges.
this was the usual Parliamentary course, where the
interference of alleer ioai eoniplaitie'd *
Lord LOWTHRIt opposed the amendment.
Mr. LAM lift IN said, the argument of the Honour-
able Baronet did n ►t justify the proceeding complain-
ed of by the petitioners. If Members were returned
on that side of the !louse by the interference of Peers
it was a gross abuse, and one abuse did nut justify
anost.:er. '1
Mr. III:MUSSON sa'd, the petition was confided
to the statement of a general evil, coupled with a
complaint of the decision of the Huu•e as to the ri2lot
ut votito; fur the Borough. No particular election
Was complained of, anal no specific Fro end was laid
f-r the interference of the Mouse. The subject of
the Petition might be very proper for reference, upon
a motion respecting the general state of the represent-
ation which the Honourable Member for Durbaut
in-
teuded to bring under the attention of the House ; hoot
he (Mr. H.) did not think it a case to justify a refe-
rence to a Committee of Privileges.
Lo d ALTHORP said, the present was not a gene-
ral complaint; for it alluded to an inoliviolotal instance,
and an individual Peer, though he was not tuentianeol
by name ; anal it also stated, that that Peer influenced
the election. lie (Lord A.) con-iolered this a direct
breach of privilege, and highly tit to be considered in
a Committee. He should, therefore, vote for the
amendment.
Mr. IiCSKISSON explained. The complaint was
of influence Dot interference. He believed the na-
tural influence which was possessed by Peer., in con-
sequence of their property, was never consiolereol il-
legal.
Mr. NIONCE said, he considered this a case pecu-
liarly calling for the attention of the 110 use. The
subject of complaint was, if true, a direct breach of
pritilege ; and, if this petitioo was not a fit one to
call for the relief of the Hon.', he shoal,' like to be
informed what was a case for such relief 1:—If
this were passed over, he thought there would he but
one opinion on the sut►j,:ct out of the walls of the
House, and that opinion would have no tendency 'to
raise a confidence in the people upon the acts of the

House.
Mr. HUTCHINSON supported the petition at some
length.
Mr. SMITH thought the chief complaint of the
petitioners was, the c••ntractiun of their elective frit,-
ehise Ile n•as not prepared to sad• that all intls►rner
n•as corrupt. or that the ialuenee which might be
possessed by a Nob'e►nan from neighbourhood, frnas
rank, and from talent. ►cas just ►natter of con►pl.iint.
As he was called upon at the iiupulse of the mo
went to give his vote it would be against the amend-
ment.
Mr. VYNNE said, that in his opinion this was
not a Petitiva whirls could properly be referred to a
Committee of Privileges. Ile complaint was too Kr-
iterAl, and came besides with a complaint of the deci•
sion of the lions". Beside., a Committee of Privi-
leges coul,l sin ;nothing in such a twir as the pres•nt:
unless the Nobleman in question heist some csAce nosier
the Crown, in which case the House might address
the Croon t rcusisre hint. Ile recollected, -:sat %..n►e
wears air •, it compliant against the Duke sit Dolton,
for interference upon au election, was retired to a
Committee of Privileges, which could not suggest any
teller .or the evil. because the Duke held uo office
ua 1:t- the Crosse'.

PRIOR Sgvaig PENCE

But one lion. lientleman bad objected to the adoptio a
of any 'nor.. theories, because he considered an exp!
riment had failed. If failure bad occurred in the it •
stance to As Lich allusion luld been made (and whit: I
by the bye, be was inclined to deny altogether) wa •
this any reason why legislation should stop altogetle :
It hail been said '• Let us adopt no new systen, but I):
content to remain as we are." This was in effect t
bar the door against all improvement. lie had gee,-
experience in the money market, and could state th •
Usury Lasts to have always been felt as a dead weigiit
on those wishing to raise money. With respect to
those eoneetned in the money market itself, the lints
had always been inoperative, and during the war in•
tliren means ha,' been found of obtaining seven, eight,
ten, and fifteen percent. interest. The laws therefore
failed of their object. occasioned inconvenience, bet
did no good, and he should therefore give his must
cordial assent to the motion.

USURY LAWS.
Mr. Serjeaat ONSLUW, persuant 'notice, rum to
411 the attention of the House to the Laws regulative
Interest for the Loin of Money. In the year IF'S,
Ise had first brought this subject before the House ; but
it was then thought unsafe to agitate the question,
and he did not press it. He afterwards again bronght
it before Parliament, and his proposal was not objected
to. The House appointed a Committee, which exa-
mined evidence at considerable 1: ngth; and among
the persons examined, were to be found the names of
persons of the highest talent and respectability. Mr.
Ricardo, Mr. Segel's'', Mr. Kaye, Sir Samuel Itotnilly,
and several solicitors of eminence were examined on
the subject, and the opinions of those gentlemen n-ere,
that the Usury Lines were generally ineffectual,
anal that where ineffectual, they were mischievous ;
and it was generally believed that they would
have long since been repealed, load they Hot
been constantly evaleol, mud that their ex•
istenee bail a tendency to increase Ilse rate of its.
*rest. The Committee ratite to several resolutions,
embracing the substance of those opinions, and yet at
the present moment those laws remained nosrepealeil
It ft-as well known that men of fortune had been rout-
polled to raise money, by granting :infinities at 15
per cent. upon three, four, and even five lives, foie t e
purpose of evading the present laws, when they tabula
have removed their dila: tities upon easier terms, if
the law were left open. Au idea hail pre; ailed than Mr. MONCE hoped, as the advance of legislation
the landed interest received rotectiun frosts the Usury hail ledi„O the way to a freetreale,to the *loan-
Laws, which opinion he believed was now admitted to ,i,,„„,,.„i of tie a-size ..f bread, that it uon .1
fluids by repealing the lens against usury. It basthave been erroneous. The Usury Law, had already
been sal), that doing away the assize of breast hat
been discussed in America. In the year ISI7, a Mr.
produced no benefit ; but, fur his part, he believe.s
Hayes Introduced the suhject its the Assembly of Vir-
teollsiitg had done more gots, than abstinence from a I
ginia in a very us •sterly speeds; and his motion fora
interferenve with the pace of brew', anal tl e 4b
repeal of the laws gas postpoaed merely to wait the re-
sult of the proceedings on the same subject in the of the which it
t open to every one to sell At
English Parliament. The lion. and Leonard Serjrant what price lie p!easeil. He was of opinion the repeal
here took a review of the law respecting usury ; phew-
the Usury Laws would benefit the landed int.•rect,
ing that originally the taking of interest was for- and solve them fr .in the mimeos cioarges to which they
Witte altogether, and tracing its first implied Amis. were at present subjected in many ins.ances.
sion, in the time iii Ilenry the Sth, down to the pre Leave was then given to h ins( in the Bill.
sent time. The highest authority could be browglst 'mum OCTIEn.
to skew the inutility of the present laws. Lock• eon- Mr. J. P. GRANT wished too ask the Right Hon.
eeived thous altogether absurd ; anal Bentham of the Gentleman who hal introduced the Timber Duties, as
present slay h oil alliy exposed eteir inefficacy. The the second reading could not be brought on till a very
great Adam Smith was the only ilistingulshed person late home, astel as it was important that another oppor-
who supported then,. Originally that profound writer twilit v shilithl be afforded for discussing it, wished so
conceived align useful for the protection of the prod!-
know what course the Right Hots. Gentleman intended
gal, but afterwards, on retlecti.m, admitted that lie to take?
was wrong, and that lienthaau was correct. In short, Mr. WALLACE, in answer to the lion. Gentleman,
Ise beliesesl intelligent mess had hut one opinion on the cai.i it was very proper that the 'Object should Ise
.111,j, et. The MO Member Own moveil .• for leave to again me., he therefore proposed that it
bring in a Rill to repeal the lane prohibiting interest, should be era(' a sevuisol time that night anal rosninittei
or limiting the rife thereof. ' ion Nlntolay. '1 ben. on his motion that the Speaks r
Mr. 11).1VEN PI /HT objerted to the motion. ne should leave the ( hair, the 414:hate could lie taken.
measure w'''ill, l,e eonceiv...l, be il.:ngeraus to sloe 34..1. P. GRANT thosight the ceusse pointed arit
Y awry of ti,e counLy, who scarcely go on by the I Ilan. Gentleman woul Idovs ry we::•
paying ossiy :I per cent. Ile feared it would drive I After st ii.az he hail sail, he (Mr. J. P. Grant) woes' 1
many person• to the 91:0C of I heir estate+, awl to spot ti,irtse the second reading, lout +Ol the motion tor
1111.4(1 the 11... i. learaed Serjeaut Would 011 con- i the itioase going into a l'ountsittee he should have
sideration itit.lraw his motion. to submit, on which he should take t:.e
Sir ROBERT UFA' IN conceived the propose.' sense of t..e House.
measure Isii hlv toisehievons to the Landed Interest, t• %MINI:TON ELECTION fOMMITTEE.
anal declared that if she Bill chemist pass. he would Mr. SMY stated that Mr. Maherly was in sus It
move to entitle it " A {WI for more speedily ruining a state of health as to he incapable of attending tie
the Nol.iTy art" Gentry f the country."—(A laugh.) C,llias .ton li!ertion t 'inutraittee.
Lord AI.TIItIRPsai I. he e sal.l use nosh:lig ruinous A medical Gentleman WAS examined, who descra.
in the measure. Ile tliovlst it better to wake it the Mr. Malierly to be confined by the gout.
interest of every loan to burrow and lend without 1111 tit, motion of Mr. Smyth, Mr. Motherly was t ~•
evading 115 r law ; and lie cot.sitlered the prsesent a coned toiti-attenilatice on the Committee yesterd.,/,
sofe opportunity for passing the p•oposed Bill. and excused from farther attendance on the tiA.,l
Mr. PGILLIPS expressed Isis sui-prise that lion. c..ininlare.
Members slsoidol feel alarmed at the repeal of laws tTTORNIF:s AND SOLICITORS.
which were isijoiriooi• to all. At lure:lit it was dini- Mr. Seep a:st ONSLOW, in moving for leave to
cult to tin 1 secosity Co- luau' at five and a half per brine in a Bill to regulate the Practice of Attur....ss
cent. 314.tice, he tliouilit, should be rendered a ))))) I So:i• itors, explained the roles heretofore acted
; aei he cosscidered the pii:4lic 194104'41 to Maid the c •rrections he wished to sapply.
the Iluminralile an,' Learie 1 Se:jea•it fur bringing eionsonissew-e of a Petition to that House that the vitro-
forward a measure evidently fouudesl upon enligi.tea- sure
r'gh be extended to IrAansi, this hail been done
eJ principles. in te Lill which he wished to introduce. He moved
Mr. tiOItIHIN said he should nut o;ipose the ma- " for leave to hrinw :n a Bill to amend toe several &Ls
don, bat It..objected to the measure ninon principle. relative to Attiornies and Solicitors."
He eoissiilrrea it a wild experiment, founded upon Leave Wits given to bring in the Rill.
what were called first principles. He thought we RILLS OF EXCHANGE.
were already suffering from experiments, and that Mr. Serieaut ONSLOW moved for leave to bring in
little priteieal good was to be obtained (ruin the a Bill to alter the laws regulating the Acceptances of
adoption of UtoFiats theories. Bills of Exehane-e. His subject was to require the ix-
Mr. .I. P. IIItANT perfectly agreed with his Hon. eeptance to be written in every case on the Bill. fie
Friend, that we had sailed from theories ; for he has' been requested by some Gentlemen to extend the
(Mr. Grans) considered the present Usury Laws measure f st-tber, a. they applehended great ince:see-
as theories. He 'hooch, it better that the borrower nience from a recent decision in the Court of the High
anti the lender slioniel be left to settle their own Sher t Was not his intention to do s.• ;
bargain. bet if any other Hunonrable Member took up that
CALCRAFT said, his present opinion on the subject, Ise sitonl.l be ready most cordially to co-ore-
subject he entertained with some diffidence, as he rate its the eass.e.
funnel it oppose,' to that of many Intelligent men. At Mr. SCA It LF.TT said, he ihmild be happy to
as-
present his fear was, that the adoption of the measure sist its eh:outing. both the ohjett to which his illosoar-
now proposed, would lead to the disturbance and able and Leartied Friend hal called the att,atio:s of
unsettlement of many mortgage securities. He the House.
••• •
should, however, reserve his opinion at length upon Mr. BARINU hoped a chute would& added, to
this suhjenst 'iota the motion for a second reading of cases like that on which the sletision alladed to had
the Bill. been had. That, he thought, week' be more valaatee
Mr. RICARDO did not see that the proposed repeal than any other part of the measure. . to
of the Usary Laws would preduce.the effect supposed, the late decision, the present usode of drawing
,Bills
as it, on the one band, lenders wont,' be Rail sots .to of Exchange went to liberates's, eltmetwo.amf other,
increase the ratetof interest
.Iherriiviies, on the other flisui the responsibility. This was a mot immareni-
band, smelt' endeavour, as .10e4) as possible. ty keep tate; nitd he hopesta remedy would be sapling& .
it down; anal so be anticipated io material change.. Mr. SEARLE f T did not know tbse the Weser:re

Mr. HARING said, if it nes thought most convenient
to rrrrr ve the debate on this subject till the second read-
ing of the Bill, he would say but little on it at present.
lie was of opinion that the proposed repeal of the usury
laws would be most hetteticial to the country. He thought
too, the •notion was brought forward at a proper time.
Formerly, when the repeal of tile usury laws was talked
of, the rate of interest in the money market was :anvil•
the legal rate, and the measure therefore Objectionghle
(rum the effect it wrsnld bare on bargains prev:ously
made. Saelt Walt not the rare HOW, 81,11 consequently
the grounds on which it was then opposed were no more
llr knew of no one whit would be likely to anger fr
the repeal of the usury !Anil but the Attorney-tieneral,
and lie linen• of no class of men who were so completely
rut to pieces by their operation as tl:ose connected will
the landed interest, who are supposed to he so loudly
interested in their being upheld. Formerly, when
rrrrr Hey could not be obtained at five per rent. iuterr•!,
the borrower, ►n consequence of the operation or tlie-e
laws, Was obliged to go to the usurer, and allow at lea -t
12 sir 1.1 per emit. lithe laws were altered, the borrowro-
inolee,l, hate to pay snore than rive p r rent. Isut
lie would not be obliged to pay at the tit,. for now fr
-
.In••nt:w paid for a 1•t-,n. On mereantile men, as the
r Co. trlisigton h of chit!, the laws were
intpt•r.tt:wr, as men atitiie melt found indirect means ~t*
rolitaiiiine market rate of interest. lle was of
the nn•asuta mminii.l be must beneficial to the landed ill-


evil, IX:rause the Duke held uo umee _ r
it down; and so he anacipate4 uu material change.. Ale. dad uut auow thstt the Infer:7-e
u•
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