The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-05-24 00:00:00

1

ry.

"Ve properly dIOCOSSed upon other occasions. The
outline of the Bill woe, to rest in the hands of the Exe-
entire the power of creating special magistrates, and to
enable policemen to be transferred from one barony to
another, to he under the control of the magistracp. He
trusted the Bill would be discussed at length upon.some
of its future stages, when its merits could be better un-
derstood by the House. He moved for leave to bring in
a Bill to authorise the appointment of Constables in Ire.
land, so as to secure the tranquillity of the country, by
the removal from barony to barony.
Sir J. NEWPORT said that the measure appeared to
hies to place a large farmer at the disposal of the local
blagistrates, add to leave them without responsibility.
Upon this first view of the measure, these were the trio-
einel objections which presented themselves to his mind.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD thought the thanks of the
Hose* doe to his Right Hotusurible Friend, for having
this early brought the subject before the Hons.. It
was one in which be had fora long time been deeply in-
terested, and be was much gratified at seeing it in such
good heeds.
Mr. Secretary PEEL thought the Hon. Baronet would
not find upon reflection, that his objections could lie
against the Bill. He was satisfied that the Honourable
Baronet would apply his mind to the measure proposed,
without permitting, any pre-coaceived opinion to inter-
fere with his deliberate judgment. Several attempts bad
been made to accomplish this desirable object, but hi-
therto without success • and it was his earnest hope
that it might now be rendered practicable. He believed
that the chief evils of Ireland arose from the ordinary
Euglish laws not having had a fair trial in that country.
He did net mean to anticipate discussion, add he should
therefore noir express his opinion that what was pro-
posed unightrnow he done; and it was agreed on all
band.. that if an effective police could be established in
I relied, the greatest benefits must arise from it.
Mr. BROUGHAM put a question acmes the table
to Mr. Welborn, which, as well as the answer, was in-
audible.
Leave was given'to bring in the Bill.
seci.sit JUDIcaTURE.
Mr. A LLEYN rose in pursuance to Dotter, to submit
a motion to the House, which he was sorry hid not
fallen into other hands. The subject might be consi-
dered with reference to the present defects in the Welsh
Jurisdiction, the possibility of removing them by Legis-
lation, and in case this were found impracticable and
difficult, to the propriety of abolishing the separate ju•
risiliction altogether. Under the first branch of the
subject, the facts were admitted. There were few re-
sponsible officers and molt of these held different 'Rua-
Gone ; some of them incompatible with each other. The
Equity side of the Judicature was seldom resorted to;
and therefore Gentlemen whose legal education had
been pried/411y directed to the Common Law were se-
lected as the Judges, and these were of course little ac-
quainted with the rules of equity. Two objections to
the equity sidirere indeed of themselves almost loser-
mouotable. The Court was ambulatory, and it lisil not
the power of enforcing the attendance of witnesses on
the obedlince of its own decrees. The latter circum-
stance had been shown in the case of Lord Kensington.
who, under the advice of Sir Samuel Hominy, had
brought actions against one of his tenants in the Courts
at Westminster, in defiance of an injunction issued by
the Welsh Court of Equity. Another objection which
affected the whole of the Judicature, was in the circum-
stance that the Judges might act as Counsel in cases not
coming under their judicial cognizance. This gave
rite to many suspicions connections between the Judges
and the Attorneys who employed them as Counsel. The
next objection was to be referred to the present state of
the law, which in some cases directed Welsh causes to
be tried in the adjoining English county; and in others
gave a power of removing causes by certiorari to the
superior Courts. The consequence of this. was, that
many suitors had to take their witnesses a hundred
miles before they came in sight of the Court of Justice;
and that the expenseof trying an unimportant cause not
unfrequently amounted to three hundred pounds. Such
a system amounted to an exclusion of the poor from the
means of obtaining justice, and enabled the rich to op-
press with impunity, as certain ruin attended a poor man
in the event of his encountering such express. Indeed
he knew that a rich man who wished to compel one of
his tenants to subunit to Certain terms lie wanted to en-
force upon him, told the poor man to "submit, or
prepare for a journey to Ilereford ;" so that it was
evident that oppression in this case was held out as a
less evil than the Court of Law. There were other
difficulties in the system; supposing a Gentleman
from the Chancery Bs; were to be selected for a Judge,
for the Welsh Judges had to try the prisoners. Now
lie believed that Gentlemen at the Chancery Bar were
little acquainted with the Criminal Law ; and that many
of them had never held a single brief in a criminal case.
—Anil yet these Gentlemen would have to expound to
Juries the law as it affected the liberties and lives of
their fellow subjects. There were also other objections,
and those too of e political nature against the present
system of appointing Welsh Judges. They might hold
equations at the pleasure of the Crown, and might sit
in that House, circemstances which would render their
integrity liable to be weakened, at least in public opi-
nion. The next question was, whether these evils could
l•e removed by Legislation, still retaining the separate
jurisdiction. lie was of opinion that they could not;
and it might thence be inferred that he intended, in the
first instance, to propose the abolition of that separate
Jurisdiction. He was, however, willing to submit the
case to the consideration of a Committee, in which lie
should propose Resolutions, declaring, in substance,
that the reasons which formerly existed for a separate
jurisdiction had ceased; that equality of laws between
England and Wales was desirable; and that in order to
eff,ct that equality, the separate jurisdiction should be
abolished, and the jurisdiction of Wales be administered
by Judges of equal rank and experience with those of
England. There was another Resolution which, as it
affeceki the Crown Revenue, must be pat into the shape
fan Address, and this he proposed to do. He alluded
s. .as payment of King's fines and King's silver, on the
conveyance of laws, w hich lie proposed to be made
through the English Conrt of Common Pleas. After
some other remarks in support of hie proposition the
Hon..llernber ob d, that it was the wish of the pen•
pie of Wales to partake of the benefits of the English
Constitution bv having justice administered in their cwn
• country in all respects as it was in England. He then
concluded by moving for the appointment of a Com-
mittee to consider the present Laws by which justice
was administered in Wales.

Mr. BARHAM seconded the motion. There was no
difference in the condition of the two countries; except
that of the language, which prevailed in a very• limited
degree and was daily falling away. But this circuit].
stance could be no argument in favour of a continuance
of the present system of Welsh jurisprudence, if in
other respects it was objectionable, for the proceedings
of the Courts were in the English language. Ile was
in favour of the total abolition of the separate jurisdic-
tion, and lie thought the people of the country were
not against such an abolition. It might be said that
there was but one Petition before the House in its fa.
your; this was accounted fur very easily. Had
there been a wish to encourage Petition* they would
have been numerous, but it was thought prudent not to
indispose the people against their institutions without
a certainty that the-proposed alteration could be effected.
.--(ilear, hear.) When a Committee in • former Sea.
sion had sat upon this subject, they examined one of
the Welsh Judges as to the people with respect to any
change in the system. The Jadge answered this ques-

that by producing an Address which had been presentesi
to him by Grand Jury deprecating any change. Moth
steesslhad been laid on this circumstance, but it turned
out that the Judge bad brought Son this Athletes by hie
own Charge to that Grand Jury; for in his Chaste he
oottted-aid condemned the then proposed alteration.
The hest evidence that the potpie of that country did
not like the present system; was in the fact that they
would .sot tenet to it; for they removed their Causes
into the sn:wrior Courts, notwithstanding the expense
and inconvenience which attended their doing so. He
gave his hearty support to the motion of his Honourable
Friend.
Me. JONES opposed the motion. Ha old that means
had not been untried to obtain petitions for the abolition
of the septrate judo liction • but the people of Wales
were, is general, satisfied will, the present system. Id-
tlettel the'''. wits a petitioti before the House from the
011anty of Chrthertiten, most respectehly signed, against
the abolition. The administration of justice in Wales
had continued for many centuries; the people were
happy under it, and had not complained against it. The
argument of his Hon. Friend(3lr. Alleys) respecting the
want of power of the Court of Equity was singular
enough; because it mast be the fault of a suitor himself
if he would apply to that Court for relief when lie knew
that it could not enforce its own decrees, and that the
Court of Chancery. which could enforce its decrees, was
open to him. The fact, hoieever, was otherwise. The
Court possessed the power of punishing a contempt of
its decrees. It might issue process of attachment and
sequestration, and would have done so in Lord Kensing-
ton's case had the person injured applied to the Court
for relief; bet the Court could not take the extra Judicial
notice of a disobedience of its orders. The evidence
takes before a former Committee was strongly against
the proposed change. That Committee bad been moved
for by a Right Hon. Gentleman now no more (Mr. Pon-
sonby) under an idea that the system was founded on
corruption; but he afterwards declared that he was sur-
prised to find that the Welsh Jurisdiction was so advan-
tageously carried on, and tbat even that of England, in
some instances, might improve from it. The Committee
bad examined many respectable individuals connected
with Wales on the subject, most of whom had strongly
approved of the present practice. In particular, one of
the witnesses had adverted to the comparatively small
expense of the suits carried on in the Welsh Courts.—
The principal persons who before the Committee had
disapproved of the present system were Lord Kensing-
ton (whose dislike of it was not avowed until he bad lost
his cause in the Welsh Court); his Lordship's Solicitors,
and a Mr. Owen, a barrister ; but this Learned Gentler
man was, day after day in the course of his examination,
correcting or altering his evidence; so that his own
mind was not, it appeared, very decidedly formed twos
the subject. The attorneys whb practised in the Courts
were, generally, men of respectable birth, education, and
conduct, and were thought fit companions by many Hoe.
Members of that House, and persons of eminent rack.
The Beech had to boast of the names of Lord Keeps,
Sir James Mansfield, Sir Vicary Gibbs, Sir Archibald
Macdonald, Sir William Grant .(the late Master of the
Rolls), and the present Vice-Chancellor, and Master' Of
the Bolls. The Bar could produce the names of moo,'
of those grave and learned persons; and, in addit
those of the great and accomplished Sir Wm. Jones, the
late Mr. Serjeant Williams, the late Mr. Justice Ashuret,
Lord Glenbervie, the present Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, the late Mr. Dsuncey, and Mr. Taunton, who bad
lately been honoured with a silk gown. He could met
believe that the Courts in which such personages as
these paraded, were not sufficient to answer all the ode
of justfie. He defied his Hon. Friend to adduce one
single instate, of injustice being done in the adminis-
tration of the Criminal Law. Another reawo advanced
by his Hon Friend for doing away the jurisprudence of
that country was the existence of the power of indict's(
arbitrary imprisonment at the pleasure of the landlord
over his tenant. But this power equally existed is the
remote parts of Yorkshire, at the option of any despodc
landlords. He admitted with his Hon. Friend, that
Judges in Wales should be appointed by the Chancellor
and not by the Treasury—upon different principles than
political; and that they should not have seats in that
House. If this motion were disposed as lie expected it
might, he should bring in a Bill to remove these abuses,
and he begged to say, that his Bill had the sanction of
the first lawyer. In conclusion, he begged to observe
that he thought his Hon. Friend had not brought for-
ward every thing to induce him to consent to change
the long established jurisdiction of the Principality of
Wales. He must therefore give the motion his negative.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH confessed he should like
to see the clause in the Bill of the lion. Gentleman op-
polite (Mr. Jones,) which was to abolish the appoint-
inert of Welsh Judges on political principles; and also
that clause which should vest the power of appointment
in the Lord Chancellor. Ile really thonght this would
be a mast curious part of a Bill brought into that house.
All that be would put to the house upon the question be-
fore them was, whether they would consent Odle popu-
lation of a large portion of this empire not having the
laws administered to them with as much purity as the
other parts—whether they would consent to have per-
sons as judges, who were on the high road to political
preferment. On this subject it was puerile to bold
forth the names of persons who had filled these situa-
tions. lie (Sir J. Mackintosh) might do the same in
defence of the Star Chamber, but he would be trusted as
a fool for his pains. It was plain that the principle of
appointment did not ensure to the King's subjects in
Wales the same chance of pure and enlightened Judges
as the King's subjects in other parts of the empire ; and
that being admitted, the question became a very small
one, and easy of solution. The Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site (Mr. Jones) was ready to admit of the propriety of
Welsh Judges being excluded from that bruse; but even
that, upon the present principle of nomination, could
not place them out of the reach of influence. The safer
way would be to adopt his Hon. Friend's motion. The
Hun. and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Jones)
said, that this change in the judicature was not called
for by the people in Wales ; but he (Sir .1. Mackintosh)
begged to say, that of all subjects this was the one upon
which he would pay the least attention to the general
opinion of the great body of the people. The prejudice
of antiquity was, no doubt, respectable, but certainly
was not to be permitted to have weight in a legislative
assembly, or on a question of this kind. Ile confessed
that he always felt great jealousy at the idea of increas-
ing the number of Judges. A small number of judges
was the hest guarantee for a long continued preser-1
vation of high moral feelings, and a multiplication of
the number of judges was always attended by a propor-
tionate declension of that high tone of judicial honor
which, in his opinion, was the greatest happiness to •
country. He thought it was the first policy of a State to
keep the name and functions of a Judge as high in the
estimation of mankind as possible. tie thought this
could best be done by keeping the number as small and
select as possible. But although lie had no superstiti-
ous predilections in favour of the number of " four."
although be had no Pythagorean feelings in favour of
particular umber : he was willing to increase the num-
ber of the Judges, if necessary. He thought the time
had arrived when, from the great pressure of business,
the number should be increased. But he was adverse to
any inequality among the Judges. Ile had rather that
two extra judges should be appointed to she Court of
King's Bench to relieve the others.
Mr. SCARLET'!' said, that his feeling on the subjeci
of the number of Judges was different from that of his
Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir J. Mackintosh), fur he
had rather see the aamber ofJudges diminished Blau in