The Statesman.
London, England, 1814-11-22 00:00:00

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THE STATFSMAN:

the probable fate of mvst of the smaller States of b ..,., ....Treaty .
Eor pe„ and .pold intilipale Atei„Tertvent..*n. . a
i
ws f:' tr. tto a between iitrtiiiallt
a .he d not cones[ that4l stern we
q sty, iv lisfii-iatl#olot: alrilte gritk: n re
pit
sr •it - newers to nt Aueit tt tunic
Power a fogies *it discontents %OEN he's* qernaltil qgn° les Mgelliiti. might pu ; .1"11114.°" "°".
rushes[
to I'lam/id, Venireko Airstiia, .foigitim •ko eaetts(,3*copkletso., wyitteu audNeobllsbed by no one,
'Holland, Saxony to Pruisia,..and 'Poland to Russia.: knew whom..
Cfpon all these topics, explanations were yet to be I Mr. I'IERNEY expressed his astonishment, that
Islet' Titti news-fore 'Amertei WM' nettiriaty . the Congress, which was issemblid for the declared
at ,PorPoses'of
Mee . I
incline the ;louse to ask, were. the, negotclatione peace, should be perve ea rt— to the end of
Ghent still proceeding ?—[Dear,
hear!]—Lmetin. „ partitioning and disposing of the territories of parti-
choly it was to reflect, that it now appeared on the'! cular Powers for the aggrandisement of others aim-
: dy deemed to be powerful enough at least, if not too
authority of Ministers themselves, that at tho.coos.
mencement of the contest, a large proportion of the much so. Ile wished to rescue England from the
American population were decidedly with us ; but disgrace which attached to this note of Prince Rep-
' that we had so fought and sn negociated, that party sin, gild was sorry to fled the House willing to be
had become extinct in the United *Ws, and that treated In the disrespectful manner which Miniiters
but one common mind existed far directing•the whole had adopted in refusing to answer questions consti.
force of 'the Republic against this count ry—[lieer, ! tutionally put to them.
hear!]-Upon all these points, ho desired to be' Mr. BATHURST- said, if the• Right linnourable
'better informed before he .gave his vote-for going , Gentleman brought forward any motion, Ministers
into the Committee. . : might then be able to answer him, because lie must
. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. state a • specific question on some point that was
said, he did not think himself at liberty to give an known : at present the questions were all so loose
answer to many of the questions put by the Hon. : and vague, and, on points with which they could not
Gentleman ; but to such of them es he deemed an be supposed to be as yet informed, it was impossible
answer fitting, he would be extremely'ready to corn- to answer them. lie could assure the House that
municate every degree of information to the House Ministers were inclined to give every information in
that it was in his power to do. It gave him great , their power.
Satisfaction to say, that the conferences at Ghent ; Mr. WHITBREAD believed that he had read to
were not broken off. With respect to the engage. the House the actual words of Lord W. Bentinck's
meta with the King of Naples, it had been already letter to the Neapolitan Government. The Right
answered more than once. As to the article men. Hon. Gentleman knew perfectly whether he had, or
tinned by the Honourable Gentleman relative to the ; bad not. If Ministers had received no intelligence
note of Prince Repiiiii„ he could answer nothing : ,respecting Saxony, they might well accuse Lnrd
lie had received no information on the subject.H Castlereagh of not having a very high opinion of his
There was nee treaty he could mention that had not . colleagues, when he kept them in complete darkness
been yet laid before the [louse, and that was with las to all his actions and designs. The delivering up
Spain.; bet it wns merrly a Treaty of Amity. Ina of the devoted .Saxens was an act of the most horrible
regard to America, he did ndt.think it necessary to . injustice. AU men shuddered at the deed. The act
say any thing tit present. - 1 was done, and whether it could be revoked or net,
Mr. IVIIITIIREAD said, then he supposed he 1 the disgrace was incurred. The fate of Poland and
was to take it for granted that the English Govern.' of Genoa equally fixed.
ment
was
ment approved of the treaty between AUstria and! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
Naples—by 'whieli the crown of 'Naples was to be : protested against the mode of attack adopted by the
wrested from our good ally, the King of the two , Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, this evening, by
Sicilies, and to be placed on the sovereign brow of . bringing forward a host of question% on the proceed-
King Joachim Murat. .
I' ! ings of Congress, of which that House could not
• judge at the present mom
fairly
moment, and for which
Mr. PONSON BY said, he had in• his 'hand a
they had no authority but rumours and anonymous
paper which had been given to him just us he was !
entering the House, which purported to he en addl., pamphlets.
' Sir C. MONCK complained of the manner in
tional article with respect to the treaty with Russia. I Sir
It was very extraordinary, that this article, which, which the lonian Islands had been given up to
was dated the Ist-of March, 1814, stipulated on the Austria.
part of this country that the Russian fleet should be Mr. STEPHEN said,' as this question related to
psis[ for at a certain rate p Hon. Gentlemen, on the other side, should grounder month, and though the policy of Europe, he was surprised that the
Parliament had sat afterwards till the latter end of
July, not the smallest communication of this article their statements and arguments on anonymous.
There was a constitutional way of ob-
hail been made to Parliament by his Majesty's Mi- pa 'I mphlets. . .
nisters—a proceeding which he thought flighty disre- , information,
taming by coming forward, and moving
the Crown, for the copies of an do.
spectful and contrary to the usage of Parliament. lan Address to. y
currents which they might deem it necessary to be
The Cil ANC ELLOR .of the EXC II EQUER laid before the !louse. He could not avi id thinking, it
I answered, that he did not exactly know any partici'. :
would be a practice very inconvenient for the House,
L lar reason why that article bad not been laid on the to have questions of this sort daily put to Ministers.
Liable; but lie supposed it must be owing to some de.; Some Gentlemen seemed to expect from the courtesy
i lay in the ratificatine. and good nature of the Ministers, that they could
Mr. PON'SON BY said, the Russian fleet had been, get information from them, which, if they were to
sent here, as a mark of the great confidence which • give, those Gentlemen would consider them guilty of
the Emperor of Russia placed in the Government of great weakness. It was too much to think, that every
this country ; and came, as it were, to a place of ' statement in a pamphlet or newspaper was sufficient
refuge against ally success w hick might have attended • ground to call upon Ministers to divulge the most
the arms of France in her tremendous attack •
Inv** important information. .
that country. Ile had never understood that Eng- E. Mr. HORNER thought that nothing could show
land had asked for any Russian fleet to come hither ,more clearly the change that had lately taken place
as an assistant to enable us to carry on the war in lin the practice of parliamentary proceedings, than to
I which we were engaged; and, therefore, he could . find a Gentleman of the experience and ability of the
!see no reason why we should be called on to pay for Honourable Member who spoke last condemn the
a fleet which was sent here to inspire us with con- practice of seeking information of Ministers. What
ARMY ESTIMATES. 1 fideoce that the Russian Government was determined bad become of the functions of that House, if, when
Lord PALM EIi.STON moved, that the House re- ' at all events to prosecute the contest with the utmost 1 Ministers demanded a large supply of money, Gent le-
solve itself into a Committee to take into considera- . vigour. . ! mereshotild he told that it was irregular to-ask for
lion the estimates for the army service.
1 Mr. B. BATHURST said, the substance of .the ; what purpose it was wanted ? If, indeed., there were
Mr. WHII•BILEAD could not consent to the : addiiional article alluded to by'the Right Hon. Gen- any irregularity in this practice, it proceeded from
Speaker's leaving the Chair until the House should tlemaii had been stated to the House in the course of the much greater irregularity that had lately been
receive some information that might enable them to ! last Session, though the article itself had not (for . introduced on the other side of the House, in pro-
what reason he could not account) been laid on the posing large grants of money, and great armies to be
judge what the amount of force was which the poll-
tical situation of the country required. On a for- table. ! kept up in time of peace, without condescending to
mar night he had complained that this was withheld • e'
Mr. PON.. ONBY said he had no recollection of inform the Houser for what purposes they were want.-
with respect to America, and he now thought it ne• any such substance as that mentioned by the Right ed. The Right Hon. Gentleman desired them to
cessary that it should be communicated .as to the state lion. Gentleman having been laid before the House.: wait with patience till some future day, when those
of Europe, unless cogent reasons could be adduced t Ile certainly had heard a great deal of the astonish- 1 subjects might be discussed with more regularity.—
why such information should not be given. Ile had lag confidence which the Russian Government had 111 e, however, conceived that the House lied a right
before stated, that an honourable engagement, and placed lin that of England, by entrusting its whole , to he informed generally of the state of our foreign
the more binding because it was so, had been entered naval force to the safe custody of this country ; but i relations, although they knew that negociatious
into by our Ministers with thw person who now fills
he had never understood, nor ever head, nor ever i actually pending could not with propriety be corn-
the throne of Naples. Of this the Right Hon. entertained the most distant idea, that we were ex-',
municated. His Hon. Friends, hoe ever, had not
Gent. had 'intimated that he knew nothing. He peered to pay for that so highly extolled confidence asked about any thing that was doing, but about
would therefore repeat, that by a written note sign.. which was voluntatily placed in us. I things actually done. They did not ask what crimes
ed by Lord Castlereagh, and by Lord W. Beritiuck,l Mr. TIERNEY said he could not but consider i were meditating, but they wished to be lam/eel
we had become parties to the Treaty between Joachim that the House was brought to a considerable degree' about crimes actually perpetrated..—Uhar, hear 1
and the Court of Vienna, on the ground that his of shame by the nature of the present proceedings,e They did not enquire about an act of Prince ltepoin
force was wanted•before time could be alloted to the It had always been held that his Majesty's Ministers alone, but they asked whether this act liad not
framing of a formal Treaty. Ile (Mr. Whitbread) were boland to give answers to nll constitutional been sanctioned by Lerd Castlereagh, 'acid whether
wished to enquire, too, whether a Treaty with Spain questions that were put to them, and such till now this country was not thereby already committed:—
had not been entered into, and ratified in August had been the practice. The Right. Honourable Gen- Ile saw no difference, in the principle, between the
last, which had never been produced? lie enquired tleinan, however, seemed determined tint to answer annexations that were now making, and the tyranni-
into this as .another of those circumstances which any questions, at what he deemed a wrong period of cal acts of that Government that we hail been se Jong
were known to every body except the House of Com- the year. Parliament, when called on to nieet in contending against. The only difference that he could
rhos s. lie wished to know likewise, whether a . November, was mere merely to grant money : and see was, that instead of being the work of one great
pie.ce, purporti:ig to be a Proclamation from Prince as •to answers to the must important questions, the spoliator, it was the work of many. nisi-lon,
R, pill, which haul been published in all the news. i House had no right to expect that they would be Friend (Mr. Whitbread) had been much, misunder-
papera, calling on the people of Saxony to submit to • given till after the Christmas recess. He was asto.. stood, if it was supposed that he had quoted from the
the Prussian Government, ' but which was stated to i niched to hear it avowed, that nothing was known pamphlet as his only authority. Ile hail expressly
have been since ter-ailed, and which certainly bore Iby Ministers here respecting the authenticity of the stated, that he hail made enquiries, and. believed his
upon it the statep of authenticity, was or was not a i note issued by Prince Repiiiii. It was generally be- : information correct. As to the proposal of a grant
fabrication) Ife was desirous
,that the ['case should I lieved by the world at large, that this country had i of money on account of the Russian fleet, it had
know whether the honour and character of the! been disgraced lii the signature of Lord Castlereagh . given him the greatest surprise. lie never teem.
country had been committed to an act so unjust 1 having been placed to that unjust document ; and yet' lected to have before heard of any ides of paying
in itself, so disgraceful in its motives, so rnis..l lin,at!swer was deigned to be given on -a point in' Russia for her fleet ceming to our ports. Ile had
chievous in its exumple.—[Heer,hear til—lf the pro- i winch the honour and justice of this.eountry was so heard a great deal of the compliment that Russia
clemittion was authentic, and the statement of its deeply concerned. Against. such a mode of pro. was paying this country by reposing so great a con.
recal correct, had the name of the British Minister ceeding he could at present• only protest ; hut he fidence in us : but when we wereatow nsked to pay
ever been affixed to the instrument of this usurpa- hoped that time was not very distant when the •Right 500,0001. on that account, he wished to know what
rim)? There were other things recently published Hon. Gent. would be liable to answer for his con. it was for? Was'it on account of the compliment that
to the world, so derogatory to the high character, duct.. Russia had paid us,, or was it on account of the aid
to the illustrious name acquired by the Emperor of Mr. SATITURST said, that at present the con- that our navy received or was to receiie•from them?
Russia, that he was anxious to withhold his belief. cerns of Europe were consigned to the Congress, the L IVe had beard many things of late, respecting which
It had been represented, that by command of the negociations of which were now going on at Vienna, we must feel ashamed ; and whieh, he.helie.vetl,. hail
Emperor, Generals Lecoq and Thielmann had been and it was impossible to answer questions that were j wrung the hearts of our-navy: but he did not know
arrested and imprisoned for presenting a rernon- put according to the whim or ingenuity of the Ho- any thing would be More mortifying than to'say, that
,trance against the seizure of Saxony. It would he nourable Gentleman opposite, on various points in I when Spain had no navy against us, and riunce had
recollected that it was under the conduct of these which it could not be expected any fair judgment; very little,. tie British easy wanted the aid of.the
same Generals that the event of the battle of Leipsic could he forined, till I the proceedings of that Con.lßussian fleet against that•little. As to the subject
was so materially influenced by the accession of the gross were concluded. For his own part, he had n.: of America, the news that had lately come frOni that
..
%.,sson force to the Allied army. He regretted, too, knowledge of any concurrence that had been given country hail naturally produced the greatest anxiety

.11 own part he hod seen and heard nothing to change
his opinion of the original impolicy and impropriety
of suspending in Ireland a material part of the Bri-
tish Constitution. He begged therefore to slate,
that it was his decided intention to bring forward the
motion of which he had given notice in the last Ses-
sion of Parliament.
• Mr. PEELE reminded the Hon. Gentleman that
this was a Bill to amend the Peace Preservation Act.
With respectto the Insurrection Act, he had, as cor-
rectly stated
sby the Hon. Gentleman, assetted its
successful opperation ; and the subsequent
.internal
tranquillity of Ireland, in his opinion, fully justified
that assertion. Ile could not agree, as Repeated to
be intimated, that because an Ant Wil4 not put into
force, it could, therefore, have hod no operation.—
lie had himself said, at. the time of its enactment, that
he hoped no occasion would arise that should render
it necessary to enforce it. Ile had regretted the state
of things, the series of outrages which. had been per.
petrated, the tumultuous disposition which had been
betrayed, and the necessity which ens thus created of
having recourse to measures that no Legislature
could adopt without reluctance. The other Bill, it
was equally true, had been pat in force in one barony,
and in consequence of Resolutions agreed to at a
large meeting of County Magistrates.
Mr. PONSO NBY enquired when the Bill would
be read a third time ?
To which Mr. PE EL E replied, on Wednesday neat.
The Bill was then read a second time.
The Twelve Millions Exchequer Bills Bill, and the
Exchequer Bills Aids Bill, were severally committed,
. and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow (this
day).
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER'
'stove(' for a Committee on the 43d of the King, for
the purpose of moviog several Resolutions .relative!
to the exportation of foreign goods ; which after a
'few words from' Mr. Atkins and Mr. Rose, were
agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-
morrow.

The Promissory Notes and Wool Importation
Bills were se►erally read a second time, and to be
committed to-morrow.

The New Built Ships, the West India Trade, and
the East India Goods Bills were likewise each read
a third time, and ordered to be committed to-
morrow.

and uneasiness. Ho was, hotiever
• happy
that the negociations were still going en at.,
and he hoped sincerely that Ministers had
quished all the pretensions that they had sea
respect to the boundaties. As long as the
with America touted upon the question' of ,
ritime rights, Government were certain of
port of the House and the Country ; but 1
,
ciple of the war was entirely chirtged,land
now wished to. stoke conquests from Arn,'
believed. that the war would not meet
wee ek
same support from the feelings of the naalowPublics
s
Mr. .W. POLE thought that it tea, star,
when Ministers came down to the Hoes,. fat,'
they had a' right to expect that they would
tinned and cross-examined. On the present
blvwever, for the House going into a co,
the Army Extraordineries, he did not
topics which had been urged were at all releosee„
As to all the questions 1s hick the Gentleaais
other side put to Ministers, shout the pending,
gociations, he thought them neither Proper sotr
Ministers had their [tends tied behind their'
and their tongues tied.—[ A laugh.]—They
with propriety, answer airy of the numerous
tiOtis put to teem on those sthjecte. •
Mr. TIERNEY rose for the purpose of
ing the reasons which had induced him to
question, and to show how it had a bearii
guff:dim' before the House. They were ce_
to go into a Committee oil the Army Extraordiesriss
and it appeared, that the country was bound, t
the Treaty of Chaumout," to keep up
75,000.
Mr. CROK ER spoke to order, as.
the Right Honouraele Gentleman was
tilling himself to explanation, but making
speech.
Mr. TIERNEY submitted, that he had
to explain the reasons for the question he
The SP KER cousidered, that, actor
the usual custom, a Member might explai,
sage in his speech that was misrepresented,
he could not, by way of explanation,
reasons of hi• feriner speech.
Mr. TI ER N EY having then stated that'
it would lather save the time of the House
permitted to offer a few observations was,
proofed. It Appeared to him, that the objects
Congress; at present were to seize. whatever
ries they thought proper. If he conceived
75,0(X) 13i itisit troop, were ersceesal to pry
good objects of a gositi Congress, I,e won
objection to their bele:, so emploeid; bpi
large a body of British troops were kept
accomplishment of objects that he supposed
be moil, or such as could he approved
country, he thought lie had a right to make
quiries on the subject. He thought that it
extraordinary, indeed,. if Lord Castlereak
sent over to Ministers that State Paper
been published in the Newspapers at Vii
had found its way into general circulation I
Mr. PONSONBY %sighed. to ask the Ili
Gentleman, whether the papers purported
been laid before the Congress of Anierict
Madison were correct statements of what tr
at the negotiation at Ghent ?
The CHANCELLOR,. of the EXCH
said, that what had passed in August, and
passing in November, were very different
Although the President of America might
per to lay before the Congress the details 01
chit ion that was pending, that was not au exam)
for this country tit follow.
Mr. PONSONBY replied, that the Preside
only done that which by the constitution
rica he was bound to do. A great part of t
which here tested with the Executive, was
the hands of the Congress. As to the
State Papers, he supposed • that they were
stated to the Congress ; he wished, however,
whether the English Suite Papers were cot
forth?
No reply was made from the Treasury, .
The House then resolved ill. If into a Commi
Lord. PA LM ERS !'ON moved that 201:
for the land-service of his Majesty, be tee
for his Nl,t.jesty from the 25th of Deoetnlgf,
to the '24th of Jane, 1815, exclusive of t'
employed in the territorial possessions of
India Compeny.
Mr. TI ERNEY rose to ask, What pro!
the number of men demanded were to be
tinder the Supplement to the Contention
lonia ?
lard PALMERSTON apprehended thtt
most unusual to state the distribution of the
deemed necessai y. for the service of his Melt
Mr. TI EItNEY said, it was not his int
enquire as to the general clistlibution of
but he wished to know what was the pro
'the troops, which were thee demanded o)
meta, which it was intended to employ
quence of the Convention ? For this, he con
he had good grounds, since the Parliament
on to voteaoumber of troops, only less b
than that which was employed when we we,
with the whole world. They already
amount of the force to he employed in co
of the Convention, viz. 75,000 even ; but
to know, if it was not distinctly shown t,
Inconvenient to give such information, wha
Lion of the 75,000 men were to be inkett oL
number now noted, and not to be provided
some other time by Parliament ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCEL
thought the question put .was equivalent
quiry what was the strength of the wrist
Netherlands. In such a View the Right 11
lleman (Mr. Tierney) himself should beim
the inconvenience of an answer t it. Apc f the
troops to be employed under the Convention would
be taken out of the number then demanded, but to
enter into (nether details would be improper.
Mr. TI ERNEY asked, whether, if instead .of,
'200,000 there•had been demanded 275,000 troop',
would net hive required some explanation to
.ill Stiff
it ? The number lir:Wally demanded, thought he
could not affirm it, to be excessive, required some o"
planation to induce the Committee to vote it. IC°
/that 11” story could there NA in saying what part of I
given force-75,000 men, was to consist of British,
uud what of foreign troops?

,
.• '
•
to~happy
On it GL. I .
eft had
tad get ."16
i
as the contitk
of our
sin of the to
but if No prilh
',and it 111:.
m Ana
meet 1110,
e Bootee kihi
leas clear, tbo
tise km,
would be riets,Yi•
'esent queety,6
t CO Mulatto
ti
not think ti
011 releseet...;
mimeos sia
the pending et,
sroper nor fair.
rllr'e.,illidrh;iseerYtraeloolarc:f liir.oilt4dreuiszball"lll:4ll.rs;
ilit to ask *
I bearing oath
was bound by
up a force 4
conceiving tid
we% not
leaking tt
he had vigit
n he hadiska
1, according to
:plain any pu.
elated, bat that
lion, state the
that he thnstit
Louse to be thee
was allowed N
le objects of ihs
bitterer termite.
conceived that
to promo., tie
woo d ha ern
I; but wbre to
,ept up for the
ipposeil not to
.oved of b; tie
utake goatees.
quo it as? Very
lerealet had not
m per which had
it Vienna, and
Ltion here.
ptiimie lrt e idig 'tot lion,hare
,nierict by Mr.
rhat hut pastel
%CHglad i*F4tetlithat sat
rent question".
ight ti.ink pro.
ails of a nervi
an example it
3 President had i
utiou of As&
rt of the pow*
p was there I
the Am lice
were correctly
were', to knot
e correctly*
sury, Bench...
Corned tee.
2U 1,000 moo,
be maintained
ceinbr, 1814,
of the troops
s of the East
t proportion of
be employed
tion of Chaco
cl thnt it wet
of the troop
Mojesty.
is intention to
of the force,
proportion of
led of Park- ;
110 y in cove.
he conteudods
tent was called
se by 56,000
re were at wee ,
ply knew the
a consequence
but he wished
cis that it tea
what propor•
.eto out of the
rovided for at
KCEIEQUER
lent to an en•
arrisons in the
lit lion. Gen-
be "sensible of
A part of tbe
rention would