The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-05-03 00:00:00

*

thinkieg. he advecatif the yitisation .
rads" Tbstiadd bp.entreeted say of I am Mess who
Waal with him in 4112 sod 1813 to vas with him on
thee present eicasisi.
illr. iIUSKISS(IIW slid that as the Hon. Gentleman
to him, siM adlMMlllbsesrable .Friestilq. MS.
ratizariliaebisiastirr. (andii 7.lliitebetttrt ifftlenteocnvisandryteatteo Ilillialli
.week apes some of these topics over which he west.
Whateverimputation could be thrown upon him, as is
of of the Crown, nobs—none could be cast open his
Right liestierable Friend. As far as related to himself,
be would endeavour to fill up the history of the mea-
sures which followed the Bills of 1512 sad lsl3. Sy
these Bills it was mole aaaaa ed to abolish all sinecurel
offices, and provide other recompenses for those whose
public services gave them a claim on Government. Is
the Committee which sat in 1817 there was a discussion
on dower's, which was rather favourable to the office
now proposed to be abolished, and also on the power tfr
he gives to the Crown to reward otherwise those whom
services sodded them to it. Though that Committee
recommended the redaction of a great number of offices.l
vet it did not recommend the reduction of the office of I
Postmaster-General. If this office were suffered to cos
thane as a sinecure, it was not suffered to continue inadal
vertently, but intentionally, as a part of the prerogative
of the Crown: therefore he did not think that these
who supported the motions of 1812 and 1813 wets se*
Used to support the motion of the Noble Lord; bow-'I
ever be did not mess to contend that Parliament bad
sot the right to deal with this office as it thought pro-
per. but be maintained that it was no proof of ieconsist-
pcy on the part of the Members who suppeeted the
Wills of 1812 and 1813, to oppose the present modes.
Is fact, these offices were held, like many ether eases
which Gentlemen in that house held, only as remnsen.
ties for the duties of awes to which no salaries
were attached. This was the case as to the Presi-
dia of the Board of Trade. If a Parliamentary
Slilllion were appointed, it must carry its inquiry to
tblsubor,linate offices as well as to the *Sega Post-
master-General itself. He could say. as far as came
within his own knowledge, that the Treasury had not
the means adequate to the investigation of all the de.
partmests, sad therefore it was necessary to appeal to
Parliament for another Bill, wiaich should give powers I
adequate to the Investigation of the establishments of
all the departments of the revenue, with the exception;
of tiro—namely, the Customs, which was already under
dip isvestigation of another Commission. though not a
italisssestary one, at the bead of which was the Pay-
insier-General ; and this Commissios had already sala
wowed far in its labelers. The second was the Excise.
which, as it was closely connected with the Customs. it
'was thought better to bays investigated by the same
'Commission. It was his Right Hon. Friesd'a intention
is give this Commission the power of examining into all
the Deparissists of the Reweave. The abolition of this
office would ease* a great embarrassment to the public
Wrier, and Ise thought the Hesse weed(' cossult the
isteresesof the public more, if they awaited the resalt of
Abs,lespiry et the Parliamentary Committal's which was
ear pesdiSe..
Mr. J. SRBRIGHT said that every office should be
get rid of which was not essential to the public service,'
.The argument adduced by the other side in sepperdsg
liie seeessity of this office went to degrade the Hesse
mere tbas say he beard since first he had the bumf si
4 dust is it.
Mr. H. SU3INER said that be would oppose this
motion on the same grounds he opposed it wisest it aims
seder the sonsideration of the House before. The Hew
Beadsman then alluded to the distress of the country.
sod said this was made a pretext by many for attacking
the existing institutions of the country. Connty Meet-
hogs were called covertly to relieve this distress. but
really to sow the seeds of disaffection. The consequence
of this was, that motions were made every slay to re-
dace the Revenue of the country. One day a motion
was made fur Memo, es another. the offices of the
Lords of the Admiralty. were attacked; then some the
office of Postmaster-assets', so that it was impossible to
tell where Gentlemen would stop. It was because he
saw a decided attack made on the Bosom of the cons-
try that he had given that vote. However anxious for
ill possible retrenchment, he would sot be one of those
Who lent themselves to embarrass the Government its
moments of irritation and excitement.
Mr. BRIGHT made some observations in support of
the motion. lie differed entirely from the Hon. Member
fir Surrey, coasiterieg as he dill that this was precisely
the time when every useless and unnecessary office ouglit
ill be abolished. There were sufficient.grounils for sanc-
tioning the present motion, and he meanly hoped it
would be carried. The people called upon their Repre-
sentatives to watch the conduct of Ministers, and re-
potted them to do their duty.
hale. TRESIAYNE followed briefly on the same side.
He expressed his surprise, after the pledge which'
Wad been gives that all sinecure offices should be done
away with, that the office in question should be kept sp.
Mr. HUSKISSON explained.
Mr. S. WORTLEY vindicated the vote he had gives
on a previous occasion in reference to the question. lie
had always thought it the greatest delusion to suppose
'that the distresses of the country could be materially re-
lieved, by the abolition of such offices as that now pro
posed to be done away. He deprecated the course poor
sued by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side in urging the,
abolition of offices, which were essentially necessary to
the carrying on of the Government. Nothing could be
more repreheesilslc than such a course, at a period when
the public mind was in such a state of agitation, esti,
therefore, he bad invariably opposed it. llowever, he
thought that such an alteration bed taken place in the
circumstances of the country, as might render it expo.
client to sanction the present motion. He should prefer
that the motion should be postponed for the present, in
order to give time fur inquiring into the .ec.its et the
Office proposed to beeliolished ; but if it was detimminid
now to put the question, " Aye" or •• No," as to why.
tier there should be one Postmaster-0 1 instead if
two, be certaiuly should say " aye."—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said that ne&
witlistandieg all lie had heard, his opinion on this queer
Goo remained unaltered. The 'vantage ground claimed
by his Hon. Friend (the member for Code Castle) wee
by no means tenable. The Noble. Marquess then pen
seeded to observe, that the oi ai oo ions given by the Com•
sittses of 1505 and 18117 were expressly in his favouron
epo abject. Thr Committee of 1807 gave a decided opi-
ates@ tbat it would not be expedient to intrust the col-
lection of the revenue to one Postinaster-tleneral nor to
a Board. His Right lion Friend had stated the mode
which Government bad selected with respect to offices,
dm abolition of which might be contemplated. That
wide might to prevent all jealousy and silence all cla-
mour. He was quite at a loss to see what could now
Induce his Hon. Friend (the member for Yorkshire) to
alter the opinion be bail given on a previous night epos
this question. There was nothing to show that clamour
was abated in the coentry. Could it be considered as a
proof is the affirmative, that the present question was
eggs urged with such obstinacy. The Noble Martians
bete read an extract from the address moved lest Session
by Mr. Betakes, praying " That his Majesty would be
graciously pleased to direct au inquiry to be made into
the mod* of collecting the public Revenue." In pur
seance of that address the Crown made a minute. by
which the concedes of the whale of the •Revenue, with
, the exception of sae particular branch, .was referred,
sot to a Board sewed by the Grown. beta* a Commie-
sine osier the iniesediate costroul of Parliament. Thee
was it not mach better to refer the prong iptestiow to
. • .•• , . .

1

that Commission, thsrmembers of which were swan on
their oaths, than for the house to charge itself with de.
cidiog npoa it ? If five Commissioaers, acting on the r
oaths, should be re...pinion that one Postmaster General
was sufficient, it was quite elear that he (the :Marquess
of Londonderry) could not feel himself at liberty to .a•
sist upon two, after that deliberate opinioe was given ,
for in doing so he should comedown to the house w:tl
,a mill-stoic rotted his neck. Tie Noble Marquess. sh
.(r
iwcapitulating some argumen's which he had urged Oa a
previous night. again contended that the office oeght to
1-he referred to the Parliamentary Commission, and that
with the least possible detay.--(Hear, hear.)—His Lord-
ship concluded seine farther observations, by pressing
this point upon the attention .t the house.
Mr. WILBERFORCE, in a tests of voice not disttn,t-
ly audible in the gallery, spoke in support of the em-
boli. He was willing to attribute nothing bet the
palest motives to his on. Frieed the Member for York.
shire, yet be could by on means agree in the view he •riok
of the question. Au Hoo. 11420114 i (Sir Joba SebrigL.;
had very properly stated it to be his opinion, that toe
question, from the limiter in which It was treated b.,7
Hon. Members on the ether side, assumed a mnebgreatir
importance tbao it woald if put simply on its 023
grounds. Whet was meant by saying that the infigeact
of the Crown would be injured by the abolition of this
office? Did it not mean that this office was given to 4
peruse for so other purpose than to induce that person
to vote with Government right or wrong
cheers from the Opiosition Beaches.)—lt was War,
however, that a person might agree with Governu,„,
because be accepted office, and accept office because 1.•
agreed with Goveroment. He deprecated the argaineta
which had been urged in support of the office, that its
abolition would diminish the influence of Government
They onght by all possible means to preserve the cha-
racter of the House. and endeavour by all just means to
secure the wood opinion of the people.
Sir F. BLAKE gate his Majesty's Ministers weer
credit for what they bad alresaily done in the way of rr
trombonist and economy, but lie thought they ought to
have done much more. Such motions as the present might
to pass with acclamation.—(A laugh.) lir was positive-
ly convinced that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr.
Hume), bed done more for Lis country them all the
sisters put together—(Cheers.) He made those milts
could nut (a loud laugh), or Haley could, would act
Doe. It was quite evident that there was no aecessier,
whatever, for two Posunesters-fieneral, and the sower
one of them was got rid of the better. Lit it was said
that it was to support the iuflaence of the Crown that
they were to be kept up. Against whom ? Against the
House of Commons ? Was there ever so preposterous a
proposition ? It was calling upon Hon. Membersto com-
mit suicide upon their own rights.—(Lenghtu.)
Mr. R. MARTIN opposed the motion.
Mr. MACDONALD congratulated his Noble Friend
(Lord Normanby) oo his having returned to the charge
with a spirit, perseverance and talent Web angora
well for his public character. Now that the King's M-
oister% had had leisure for reflection, and aeopportusitv
of collecting the ~pinion of their country friends, be bad
felt some callosity to see what new shifting course they
"maid adept; and that curiosity bad heat amply gyati-
li,d by the turn which the debate had taken to night.
With the exception of the Member for Surrey, kip-
hived there was not a single unofficial person who bail
ventured to stand up in his piece mad justify the vete
which ha intended to give against she motion. The ten*
of the Noble Lord (Londonderry) was Indeed cossiders
ably subdued, remotion nuttotra ditto Halm! Where
was now his bash tone ? Dow bad the mighty fallen
Iliac., the last debate on this qaestioni! Humble and
beaten, and retiring from his former grated, this mighty
champion of the inflators of the Crown, who had owe
declared, that without this office it mould be impossible .
to carry on the tiorernment of the maestri, was sow
ready to refer to certain Commiseionera • vain
which bad been already twicaidasided in that boat. it
had Isies said that *adios even of the mammy
patronage of the Crow, sod taught *is
twitched. but it was for the Itousilleasuisioraillether
that argument ought to hare weight with the& He
would appeal to the Right Hon. Datitlssasta (Mr. F. R.
binson), who bad made so strong an appeal on a former
occasion, in foveae of the inferior Clerks of his own de-
partment, whether he could stand up is his place and
say, that • second Postmaster-General was necessaro
whether hoe could say to those clerks, that they awl be
sant adrift, but that a doplicate Posttoarter-G metal we.:
ha retained ? He wished also to knew fres she Noble
Mareteeer (Londonderry) what Ise mesas by a very fa.
vourite phrase, which he had used urn that and many
other occasions, " a well understood economy," it re-
minded him of what Hadibras said of pain—
.' Simply, 'tie not had nor good,
But merely as 'us nntlerstood."
The 11',o. Member then entered into a statement, to
show the various sources of influence possessed by the
Crown, and concluded with cautioning the house
against giving their sanction to the cestinaance of
necessary places. with a view to extend that influence.
Mr. MONEY contended, that the second postmaster
was net a sinecure. He knew, that in the course of the
i t3Yeatlrie Postmaster mot have been read; anti
irtz taste
1 up Whenelage nlhy withoutleetrucuoeni
sh latwhi raga
rattewn, two
warrant from
also
usritir9gleille;linedorrirP:omb:o:3ll:l:seinellirlet ar were
patronagert- refer-
redg
of the establishment,—(laugliter,
baud.he ccold( onen rilko n it
rig
tt oneooredn e
of tmau l
one te 5i
postmasters,l4 Lu
er, o ,sy right titan`
de
mtyoi:et d.ossekhrt
otrwuhi lehedirs lotlcfol teat
Ihn ora see
cis; ;sta
hal tieoy—l e.f
d
had been absent from the country ? He believ.st that he
was away about two years. and this was a rompletr an-
swer to the lion. Geotlentan's speech—(loud cries of
question, question !)
Mr. MONEY was proceeding to speak again, bet was
prevented by cries of " spoke, spoke •
Lie. MANSFIELD said, be would rather give tel
eifillatthetioficia:ourtlease.tiviooproandotimtbAasNna.2n7ls4at t.iodta7oo:o_Cipi:slloitteigr,asanridoercrninil.
The House then divided—Ayes,
jority against Ministers, 15.
The announcement of this
loud and prolonged cheering.
disposed of, and the house •

On the 23l ult. • duel wi
twees Capt. Itsyeraft (late
goons) and Capt. Woolley
met was attended by C. W.
latter by Admiral Sot% thies.
to this reenntre, originated at
The interference of the second,
tioo, proving unavailing. tb-
shots each. Capt. Spencer's
Itaycr•ft's ear, bat Inekily
jury. The affair was thus termini
Lion of all parties.
It was mentioned is ear Old
age, that the business of the
morning, on account of there
present. It seems that the Aln
gaged another is appear for hits,
meat had been forgotten—at
on the Beach was coneersed.
mess however, were present

I few words in reply.
•Ayes,?.l6—Noes,tol—Ma..
majority was received with
ig.—The other enters wrre
adjourned at 12 u'Lloti.
Pill kW% hr at Rainhaw, hi.
of the Inniskilling Dra•
Spencer, R. N. The fir
V. H , ?Le
I. The dispute which lea
at an amicably in !Anthill
:omits to erect a reeoncilip
lite parties escliaamed
'a second lire grazed Capt.
y dill him no serious in•
terminated to the satirise.
IW Hailer ',Tort a few days
e Resistors *ca• delayed an
!re not beige; an Alderman
Alrieretan is tare had es-
hi re, by s horn the engage-
it least so far as atteridi,l
J. Huth the a oraiy Attire-
t at tits dianer.
1: