The Statesman.
London, England, 1810-03-20 00:00:00

'

themselves of thisiwerease of saki i. s and
liy going' out agith to India. Did' not
;..e.tablishment of judicial tribunals in the hoe_
tr
of India, at an eepence 'of one million an-
ir:„..;ity, and to the indeeuesiorthe Crown ? Coeld
„et the Right lion. Gentleman, or his Majesty's
ministers, send out any number to( young men to
inmi, hien whom these Justices and Judges of
Aviv: were chosen ? These were' the eitCum-
-1.3„,0 Which the Right Hun. Gentlemen akestfd
lyre taken into his consideration,' whetv4te Oder.
k to discuss that vital tlttestinn, whetter the •
tee
of the Crown had increasesl. -When
• CilltfilV 13( Ceylon became a part Of time Bri..
14 Empire, had not Mr. Nails !seen sent•oirt as
taverner, at a salary of 10,0001. per annum ?
Had not General Maitland been since sent thither,.
,a ?.alary of 10,0001. per annum ? And was it
sot known that both thole Gentlemen happened
ogres:sills the Government?' Had Ilot another
Hen. Member (!dr. Hstvltisson), whilst Secretary
r„ she Treasury, been appointed agent for Cey.
to, in which character he was to sot/evil his se.
come to the Treasety, so that in fact he' was to
rs„ his own accounts? The It gut Hutt. GMstle.
tula had net noticed the Droits of Admiralty as
purses of influence to the Crowd. These Omits
osautited to eiglit millions, only two of which
„de accounted lor. • It had been coritetweir by
the (;.row' Lawyers; that these Droits were the
absolute property of IA Majesty. that Siff .1111-
Guns would afford theorems of overthrust/1k the
(~,astitotion, if employed fur that purpose. They
ootild enabis the Government to return the *ma-
janty of that IlesPe, in several steceesive Par.
moats. That the proceeds ot the DOA stud
ni:•hs eshiullist:97hbie'fhtrheatilht.b.uteludatettciTl•nsoo:tth:lll-tahere
•(
Lea were a soaree of influence and. prdfit, the
time of the famous Joyalist, Mr. Jain Bowlis,
sues proof. The Right Hein. Gent. hid talked
• 1 the managensesq of the debt by The Bank ;
hst in 1784, who would have dared to predict
04 the Beak would at this slay he protected by
tbcGore/enema in withholding the issue of ape_
'cu: (or their notes—or' that it would have due_-
t-seed to manage the public debt ? Whilst the
Batik was thus dependent upon Government, he
v.ottlil ask whether any Director of the Bstik, a
:i(caiber of that linens., would *discharge his duty
I.) his cp:O6OO.M, at the B.sisk, and diff...r from
nnisfers in that !loose ?-----The same obser.
sullen applied 61.'4 he Directors of another great
11,de its the City, the Directors of the East-
Cempeny, who, with their sit millions of
debt in Wait, and their oeteniive debts at hone,
ulna they looked Itr Government to east upon
Cie public, conla out, cote:ol'4oly with their con.
cern for the Cetntihits7, vdature"to differ from
tioverteinest. Al! these considerations shoved
t:nt ilia influence of the Government hell in.
treased, and made it an imperative duty upon
!louse to take mime steps to restrain ifs pto-
pess. The Right lion. Gent. prufeesing, to con.
tar himself to the list-24 years, had gone back
t• the reign of Queett Aline for a continst with
the reseal day as ti,) the ansuent of peesinssi but
his comparison the Irtafit
sun had left out the Scotch Pension List, and pen-.
IPOIS tin the 41 per cents. In 178.1 thire were
let two ur three Members of Patti:odt*, pen_
timed mit of the 4+ per Cent. Fund; now there
twee seventeen, and all connections of the. Right
Iteiourable Gentletness oppiisite. lie iltinsid
tile another occasion • to Obes► the illegality
of granting pensions out of that fund, which
id teen raised for other purpates... Rit,ht
Roiseurable Gentleman, he Was convinced, could
eel believe shit there were not persons con.
reused in contracts its that lieuse.—Lieenties
Were another source of influence to Thy Crown.
Liould the Right Ilosiuse6ble Gentleman say,
15st as a lileeiher Of the Board of Trade, he
hal nut Transactions w ids. Members of that House
mewing licences ? tYhe n discussing such a
sahiet as the •inerease of the inliiience 'of the
Celery, •these were' the questions which the Right
Ileum-fable Member might to have introduced, in.
end of Liking it up fur a party purpose. (Hear,
kzeir!) Fur what ether purpose could he have
earn:Weed the circumstance of Mr. Fox having at
:•s early period of his life fisted 'against inquiry ?
Far what other purpose t he statement of Mr. Pitt's
!mini try embarrassments, and the mode proposed
? • It nes nothing else hut a pitiful
ratty production, highly sinicerthy of the Right
Honourable Member its anther.
Mr. ROSE, again called upon, felt himself ob.
rterd again to trespass open the indulgence of the
Cintsmitice. Of the terns " pitiful," applied by i
the Ilenourable Member to his pamphlet, he
tleueglit as little as he did of any thing that could
fall from that Honourable Member. Thu Hest.
Gentleman had imputed motives to hilts which he
'tat not warranted in doing, either in justice or
fairness. The lion. Gentleman was incorrect in
Hying that tie is ad not guise into detail respecting
Co, 'emus., as every Hots. Member would see,
11 he looked into the pamphlet. Ile was net
")th of any influence that could be derived to
qovernment from contracts. As to what had
them said of the addition to the Judges' salaries,
Donnas the first time he heard it made matter of
ilfloPiaint, that. the sittiation of Judges was trade
lore iadependent. The etsestiAs relating to the
E;st Indies, his Right lion. Friend (Mr. Dun.
4'l) would be able to explain. Ile was igeo-
rant how the *oils or Admiralty could increase,
fil influence of the Crown. He denied that either
h „ a
'Alt lima Directors lim wteesers would be obliged to vote,
.4.l;llGoverninent open the grounds stated by the
Ilesseurable Gentletoan, lat all the conquered
'lllll3ies there were ant more than eight or ten
PIRO wants going out for, to any political mall,
and consequently the influence of the Crown
bald nut be much increased in that respect. lie
knee of no contractor having a seat in that
nor did ha believe any had sat in it since
hthe Act passed. To the tpieStion of the lloo;
Iteetleman respecting licences, he had to reply,
1,1,',,41 he had. had several, tint nu private trainee.
" with Members of that House on the subject,
end that conduct wutild have been gelded with
Vt`' la•ee fairness rind impartiality towing any
ctuatt on the Oppuside side.

•••••4•.....1r.,••t,

Mr. DUNDAS could libt. what sin-
neelion tIM allusions Made to India had with the
question before tiro Committee. He supposed the
object of the Hotionrible Gentleman- was to thew
that the influence, of
.the Crown had increased-,
with the increase of our territorial possessions in
India. In whatthe Honourable.Gentleman had
said respecting the annual eapeace (or the Judges
in India, as one million, he lutist have been dream-
ing. No such thing was the fact. There were
o•etainly ti number of persons appointed as Ma-
4isfrates and Judges
,of Assied in the interior, but
not one Of them was appointed by his Majesty's
Government, either directly or indirectly. As to
the insinuation that most of tkuse persons ware
sent out by Goiernment, he shutild only *ay that
Lott! flints hid tipledge from him that he vroald
not recommend any person !fir its appointment in
resoliition he had adhered to, and
should continue to adhere to; and he believed thit
liis.pcederesSers not all perhaps, but cer.
:tainly most Of theM, had acted-upon the same pfin.
elides. The +merino; of the Honourable Gentle-
man, that all Writers were sent out 4o India by
Government, he had to meet by a flat cootradie.
thin., Only two are recommended by the Board
of Controul, and even those the Court of Direc-
tors need not allow. The Honourable Gentleman
hid dealt only in strong assertion*,
only to. be met by equally .f rung counter.asser.
dons ; and hi no case had the Honourable Gentle-
man shewo by argument the justice of his asser-
tions. The Courts of Justice in Calcutta had ea.
i4tod before Mr. Pitt came into power; the Ma-
drat; Courts of 3ustice and the Recorder of Bum-
bay were. the 'only offices that hall been since
created.
• Dir. CREEVEY repealed what he hid asserted,
thist.the. judicial establishments in India Cost one
minims *woolly ; and in this he was fortified by
the concurrence of other Members of the Coin.

--.----~

mittee.
Mr. SIMEON, in defenee of the Misters in
Climicery, felt it necessary to state that they had
no patronage whatever, and that • the increase of
their Salaries had taken place one or two years be-
te& atetlion. Gentleman had thought of bringing
forsiarif his resolutions. The Hon. Gentleman
might therefore very well have left these officers
wit of 'bid Statenieut, sad his object in rising ./as
to prelim( its going forth to the public, that Mas-
ters in`qhancery possessed any endue patronage,
or received any undeserved remmieration fur their
laborious serviees—serviees not the less rneritorki
ens heesase withdrawn from the :public view-
'llieoppolsitment of these offiCers belonged to tho
Chancellor, ,not to the Crean ; and the..iiine of
ten, who had been dieinisrestedly appointed by.,
the present Chancialoi, were none of them •ap.,-
',Dieted fur political uhkets; He had himself been,.
I•
appointed 16 years, age by Lord Loughboroegh
. fr.
lime before he hid a seat in that House; and to.
.iilte•• that tub political depentleoce attached to the
office, Ire hail unly'to state, that an Hon. Member
"-opposite (Mr. Morris) generally voted against Mi-
siste:rs.• • •
1" , Mr. MARTIN, in exislanation, stated, that be
tied sot intcutl'ed to say any think - .W'
spectisse Masters in Chancery, whose lid Slat ' *if
by accident in trfidered ' amongst this Oftetri-to
~_
-wanes his observations parlicularly applied.
Sir JOHN NICHOL begged' to infOr'et • Bic
Committee, that uncut the eight millions of .Droih:
tal"..Asamirelty, about two-thirds had beets firerito"
tbecapters; 'of the remainder, one nfilhott hod
been given to the public, and the residue was ip-
411i-cable to the public service. • •
, • Mr. WILSON, as well as NI,C could collect,
"defended the characters and offices of the Masters
its Chancery. • -
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
slated, as the ground upon which he moved the
amended resolution, that the original one of the
Hott..and Lsarited Gentleman. was much narrower
than the occasion required.• 'the amended MO- '
Itition stated is general, • that it was 'at • all titna
the defy of that House and of Government, to
I pay every attention. to economy. It. had ever-.
Itlasq:n distinctly the wish of •his Majesty's Miliisters
to apply so much of the proceeds of the •ships
condemned antecedent to the war, as were .not
I distributed to the captors,-to the public service.
- Mr. BARING ,considered that the power of
granting licences did give a great influence to the
Crown. The trmla in this country was cirriednis
nut by law, but by licence, whit.% was more suited i
to the principles of the Turkish Government,
than of. British.Freedons. It was certain that the.
Treas4ry gained great patronage by it, hut it was
pot easily to be proved its what manner they
used it. - . . .t. „
The CEIANCELLOR ef, the EXCHEQUER'
said, that if the, power of granting licences had
been so abused, it-was impossible that the abuse •
'should have escaped detection. The public,. and
the Hop. Member himself, who 'was a London
Merchant of great eminence, must have been
able to detect the abuse, and such .a detection
must do mote injury to any Administration than
,they cony benefit from the patronage. . 1
Mr. BARHAM said, that the proof 'was es-.j
trumely difficult: Supposing two merchants an.,
' plied for a licence for a voyage foi the same ;dew
and at the same time, if one obtained his licence'
but three days before the (viler, the advantage
was incalcul4ble. • Ile might sell his whole cap
at his own prices, while the other would find the
market glutted.
Mr. KOSE said, that a partiality of this sort.
would be very easy of detection. The fad was,
the apiilication fordicencei was made in a public
office, .and there was no instance of any licence,
which was unobjectionable, nut being granted the
day after the atplintion. The Board met for this
purpose Silt days in the heck, add it was their
minimise course to determine uu the application the
was made. day after it was - -
• The first Resolution was that put and agreed to
sinanithonsly.
Upon the second Resolution Being put,
Mr. BA NEES rose fur the purpoie of movigiar
an amendment. lie About/tat that it.wits right,tat.
ascertain with what spirit the Matsu entered ispbes.
the presentsliscession, and that.they shoald pro.
comae their opinion . between the abelitiun Of si...
•
. ,

tV- 41 re

MPT

• •

•

•
• they,• b .
nod!. pieces,. w ncame vacant, and t..
regulation of thous. Every sic:deeding year the
Ministers hid the painful duty of proposiog fresh
burdens to be laid upon the people, and it was
hut natural for the people to ask whether
every thing was done that ought to be done,
to diminish those burdens. Although the:actual
saving which could be made in this way might be
amall, yet it was a matter of great consequence in
the principle. When the people should see that
nothing was imposed unnecessarily, and tint every
burden was taken off which could be taken off, they
would submit to their burdens with more cheerful.
ness. However small the retrenchments .Obich
could be made in this way would appear, when
compared with the general scale of our expeadi..l
lure, it would not be a trine, in the view which he
had stated. In the content and comfort of the
people, it would be great indeed. He thought that
the public money should not be wastefully em.'
ployeti, and that it should be given only for the
discharge of public duty. Therefore when ilia.
cient places and sinecures *ere in existence it became
a rigiltet Parliament to correct this abuses He con.'
Mitered that an immense patronage was attached to
the inefficient place of Auditor of the Exchequer.
The capences of the office of the Treasury, were
not less that% 60,0001. a-year, and the number of
Clerks wattoestautly itscreesieg, lie meet ;A.
jeer to those places where there were a notnival *T.
ricer and an efficient one both receiving salaries.
lie would wish that the sinecures should be abo-
lished as they became vacant,• but at the same time
he did not wish to deprive the Crown of the meaner
Of rewarding great- serf/ides: The question was,.
whether those services were best repaid by sine..
cures orby pensions; and he conceived that pee.
site's were the better way. There was an instance
of the disposition of a sinecure within a few days
(gr. Yorke's Tellership), and he would venture to
say, that upon a principle of rewarding services
by pensions; a pension equal to that sinecure
would net have been given to Mr. Yorke. When
it was only the disposal of a sinecure, be was
not the least surprised at the manner in which 11.1
had 'been given. In every instance where distal
tingtrishel service was performed, a pension wail
proposed, and those sinecnres were kept to rewatd,
services of another description. This was.a thing]
audoebtedly. galling to the people.: He thought,
therefore, that there should be an abolition of si.
twelves, as the lives dropt who ,now held them;
with a power in his Majesty to grant pensions
commencing from the fell of the lives, and coes-
mensuratu to this diminution.. He the sght the Of-
fices which were merely sinecure, ought
.to be
. abolished ; that those where the emolument far
.exceeded the labour, should be regulated so as to
„.make 'the Meer and the casolonent cdrreapen.
dent; and that all these places. whichereentiteted
Rby ,
uttpltlys thoulsi ttu. restected In the sa4fty'af this
deputy, excepting whet might be considered an
addition equivalent to the finding sulticieet sceuri-
ties. He thee concluded by moving to 'ashen&
Mont, which included shoat opiulons fortiesholi.
tion of users sitteceres, and the reduction of oda.
•
, ries in the other laces, in the magnet he had own..
4torsest s . . .
The CIIANC 141,011 .of the EXCHEOJkIi,
thaught that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Ilankes)
coulil hardly eqrct that the Hons., would upon
L the first statentlyot agree to etopositiont which
would so materjslly diminish the prerogative of the
"Crown. The resolutions of the Hun. Member.
'(Mr: Martin) had been printed in the last session,
together with the resolutions which he. himself hest,
proposed on the Other side. Which ever wuy the.
House might decide with respect to those resoled:.
oust, they would he acting with sufficient notice ;
but at to the principles contained in the amend.
ment moved by his Bight Hon. Friend, they had
nut even been stated before, and therefore it could
' hardly be supposed that they would be immesh.
ately adopted.. He could by no means approve
of the amendment, which was not even introdu-
ced by. the Right Honourable Gootleinan.himself
:as likely to be productive of arty important
saying. He really could not cenceive by what
traits of. argument. his-Right Honourable Friend
copld convince himself that agreeing to such Mel
antiesdasen wou Id II o- a great deal to reconcile ' the)
public te their burdens, and to take from the clic_
affected a handle and a weapon. What practice!
geed eettid ouch an amendment produce' The
prerogative of the Crown was in the first place to
be invaded by the abolition of those places, and
the public were wet to gain any advantage... His
, Right gunourable Friend himself had not stated
'toy adventagb, for he talked of a substitute fort
lfhetlo phKeig . which would cost as much as the
places themselves. Ile had proposed to give the
Crown the power of granting pensions eunmensu.
este to the falling iu Of. the sinecures..
. Mr. laitilLti said that was not his intention
only thought that,' power should be given. to
'a certain amount, to reward services by pentium.
'llse CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEI
resumed. lie did not see that thil. &Vitiation at
all remedied the objection. The Right Hun.
Gentleman proposed the abolition, of sinecures 44)41
solhtely, and he talked of a substitute, without
informing the Committee to what umuupt he w add
',propose that this substitute should be carried.'
The Cothmittee, therefore, only knew what he
would bsvc destroyed, but not what he was to
isot in eke place of it. If he really did not mean
to peodure edintioution of ex pence-by the amend.
meat, it, was tamely a matter of his' private fancy`
with reaped to a. preference of Pensions -to Stualt.•
mires'. As WO, illustration - which the Rigid-
Honourabie Gentleman had selected, of the dispo.
sal of sistectsre a few days @goyim tensidered
the disposal *id mat unexceptionabk Dear, hes:l-
and some laughter). His merits-had been twirl
pared. with lhat et , a Noble Lord (Lord
lington). He must hoWever say, that it never
had been supposed, • hitherto, that these places
opere to be disposed of exactly according to. the
erks •of. AU /milk: services. They were comes:
*redo Wagging to the patronage Of the Crown,
ihp be givot by it to any deserving servant' of the
,ereststry, to whom- it - slit:mid' think :Mr.
,Torks eer-yed his: cusim try in' ppblic
'situations; and if such a place had been grunted
to him imnatiattly after his Serticel as Seem