The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-10-21 00:00:00

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ilsyeso46 his gesso-A and something contiderably less Vas
offered to him, which be did not choose to accept, for tha
same services, call it what they might, he (Mr. Lloyd) con-
sidered it a removal; but if the word " removal" was not
approved of, he would willingly say, " upon the retirement
of Mr. Case."
Mr. EARLE said there was one person less under the pre-
sent treasurer, because Mr. Pearson was superannuated.
Mr. BOLTON said the present was not the proper time,
otherwise he could readily explain the apportionment of the
office.
Mr. LLOYD said, if the word had been dismissed, there
might have been some ground for cavil, but as it was there
was none.
Mr. BOLTON suggested that " retirement" would be the
better word to adopt.
Mr. BIRKETT observed, that if there were the same num-
ber of clerks now as there were then, it was a removal.
Mr. EARLE.—But you have not the same number.
Mr. BIRKETT.—Then we ought to have it explained.
The MAYOR explained that it was a voluntary thing upon
the part of Mr. Case.
Mr. LLOYD considered the subject in discussion perfectly
trivial, and not worth the words spent upon it.
The TOWN-CLERK suggested that the proper course would
be to refer to the resolution of the Council, which would de-
termine whether it was a removal. According to his recol-
lection it was, in point of form, a removal under the Munici-
pal Corporations' Act, without which the bond to Mr. Case
could not have been granted. The books, however, would
speak for themselves.
Mr. SANDS remarked that there must have been a virtual
removal.
Mr. AIKIN said, that the chairman having proposed to re-
fer the report back to the committee, it was not before the
Council ; otherwise he (Mr. Aikin) should take objections to
many parts of it.
The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK read from the council pro-
ceedings a report from the Paid Officers' Committee, dated
the 4th of May, 1836, which recommended (and it was agreed
to) that from and after the 7th of May, 1836, the services of
Mr. John Deane Case, as treasurer of the borough, be dis-
continued. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COOPER said if that was not a removal, he did not
know what was. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—It is something very like a dis-
missal. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. LLOYD moved that the word "dismissal" be substi-
tuted for " removal."
Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE seconded the motion. Mr. Earle
would, perhaps, now receive the expression much better than
he did before.
Mr. LLOYD observed that the act of parliament said the
council of every borough should have the power of removal.
Removal, therefore, was the proper word to use.
Mr. ATKIN said he should like to lcnow, from the recol-
lection of the town-clerk, whether a compromise was not
made? He (Mr. Aikin) had a clear recollection that it
never was intended to remove Mr. Case, but instead of con-
tinuing to him £lOOO, they had presented to him only £5OO.
He knew there was an arrangement made to enable the party
retiring, and the other party who came in, to receive £5OO.
If Mr. Case had continued to act, his original salary of
£lOOO would have been continued ; but to enable the coun-
cil to accomplish the grant of £5OO within the meaning of
the act, he would ask the town-clerk whether some arrange-
ment was not made?
The TOWN-CLERK said the answer he should give to that
question, with all deference, would be this. His understand-
ing was that there was a compromise between the Paid
Officers' Committee and Mr. Case. It being understood that
Mr. Case would be content with £5500 a-year secured to
him, an arrangement was made to carry into effect what was
legal under the municipal act—namely, his removal, Mr. Case
claiming compensation, and having that compensation al-
lowed to him.
Mr. LLOYD asked how it could be expected that he, who
had not been in the council twelve months, should know of
the existence of any private arrangement ? He thought,
however, enough had been said upon the subject.
Mr. EARLE said that Mr. Case would confirm what the
town-clerk had stated.
The MAYOR observed that the word in the act of parlia-
ment was " removed."
The report on the treasurer's department was then re-
ferred back to the Paid Officers' Committee.
Mr. LLOYD would now proceed to the third subject upon
the summons, which was for the council to take into consi-
deration the first report of the Paid Officers' Committee, laid
before them at their last meeting. He then promised that at
the present meeting there should be laid upon the table the
evidence upon which the committee had grounded their re-
port. The evidence was now upon the table ; it was now be-
fore the council. (Hear.) He would suggest to the council
that they should take the whole subject into their most
serious consideration, inasmuch as it was most important for
the good government and direction of this large estate. In
the discussion on the gaol question, a great deal had been
said on the advantage of system and discipline ; and he must
apply the same remark to the departments referred to in the re-
port, for in them there was a want of that system, direction,
and discipline, which were most essential for the welfare of
the establishment. Two modes had suggested themselves to
his mind for the council to deal with this report. The first
wits this—that he, as Chairman of the Paid Officers' Com-
mittee, should move " that the report be taken in considera-
tion at a future day, and that in the mean time the Town-
clerk, the Deputy Town-clerk, the Clerk of Committees, and
the Sergeant-at-Mace, state their views in writing to the
council, through the committee, upon such parts of the re-
port as may be considered to refer to themselves; and that
the committee be instructed to procure, through the town-
clerk, counsels' opinion upon the legal questions which arise
upon the report." The other mode was, to move " that
every department be now considered seriatim, and such
parts of the evidence read, and documents referred to, as may
be considered necessary, in order to show the grounds upon
which the committee have made their report; and subse-
quently come to a decision upon the whole, or any part, of the
committee's recommendations." If any point should arise
on which there might be discussion, or anything read from
the evidence which was now found incorrect, he would
suggest, in the first instance, that that particular subject
should be referred back to the committee for their
' further report thereon, and that the officer whose duty
might be made the subject of the question should report
to the council, through the committee, upon that particular
question. Perhaps there might be a third course that the
council might take with advantage—it was, to throw both
the report and the evidence aside, and take the case as it
stood for themselves. [Mr. EARLE—Oh Lord; no, no!]
Why one heard every day almost of the House of Com-
mons resolving itself into committee in order to enter
upon details where the strict rules of discussion could
not be observed. This was just one of those cases, and
therefore it had occurred to him that the council might
resolve themselves into committee, and take all the
s
evidence for themselves, instead of receiving it from
five, six, or seven individuals, who were to have, not only all
the labour but a great deal of abuse—and not only abuse
but threats. The Council, indeed, could not learn all which
they ought to know, unless they went through the course
which the committee had—that was through the whole evi-
dence. The second resolution, of those he proposed,
would impose a great deal of labour upon him, but he did
not shrink from that, however formidable it might be; because
he was determined to do what he conceived to be his duty.
Hear, hear.) He was, at the same time, prepared to go
through the report, sentence by sentence, and to prove
every passage in it by the evidence given by the officers and
servants of the corporation themselves. And he was bound
to state that personally he had received the greatest courtesy
from every officer connected with the corporation ; but there
was a circumstance relative to Mr. Okill, the Clerk of
Committees, which he regretted to be obliged to state.
He did so because there was a :resolution upon the proceed-
ings of the committee, which if read without any explana-
tion, might seem to have been incorrectly placed there. As
chairman, the course he had adopted was to request the
head of every department to furnish the committee with a
statement of his duties in writing ; and along with the rest
Mr. Okill was requested to do the same. Mr. Okill laid be-
fore the committee a report presented to the council in 1839,
stating that his duties were described there ; but upon read-
ing it the committee found that it related to his past not to
his present services. On calling for Mr. Okill they were in-
formed that he had left the building. The committee thought
nothing of that at the time, and they proceeded to take the
examination of his clerk, Mr. Abbott. They then fixed
another day, on which to take Mr. Okill's examination ; the
committee met on that day, but, he regretted to say Mr.
Okill did not make his appearance, although he (Mr. Lloyd)
had written to him to inform him of the meeting, and al-
though he had seen the resolution of the committee that they
would proceed with his examination, some days before.
Another meeting was then appointed ; but at that meeting
Mr. Okill did not come to the committee with his duties in
the shape the committee required, and consequently
his examination was postponed till another meeting. The
committee had the trouble of meeting no less than four times
before they could get Mr. Okill's duties in writing. He
made these observations, because, from the'course the ex-
amination had taken, he thought the committee had lost
most valuable information in not having had in the first in-
stance the same mode of dealing with Mr. Okill as they had
with the Town-clerk.
Mr. SANDS—Did he never appear?
Mr. LLOYD replied:that he had. The Town-clerk, from
first to last, had given the fullest information he possibly
could ; and if the committee had met with the same
straightforward conduct upon every side, it would have been
of the greatest convenience to them ; and any inaccuracies
which there might possibly he in the report might have
been obviated. He (Mr. Lloyd) would be the first to
admit, and it must be admitted on all sides, that the services
of Mr. Okill to the corporation had been very great. The
old corporation, as well as the new, had admitted the value
of those services by grants of money and by increase which
from time to time they had made in his salary. Whether he
had been sufficiently remunerated for his past services was
not a question for the council to go into now; but he (Mr.
Lloyd) considered that Mr. Okill stood in a false position
with regard to the council. For instance he had now the
custody of that which the officer who was to conduct the ex-
ecution of the municipal corporations' act, with relation to
this borough, might at any moment take from him.
Mr. BRANTLEY-MOORE—He is bound to do it.
Mr. LLOYD, in continuation, said that if the council kept
Mr. Okill in his present position, they could not keep him
there except as a clerk of the town•clerk.
A MEMBER—No doubt of it.
Mr. LLOYD.—It was said " No doubt about it," but Mr.
Okill did not consider himself as a clerk of the Town-Clerk,
and it could not be expected that a person with his habits,
and at his time of life, could ever be brought to consider
himself so. It was absurd therefore to say that there was no
doubt about it. The evidence would show that neither Mr.
Okill himself, nor the Town-Clerk considered that to be his
position, and, consequently, he (Mr. Lloyd) held that Mr.
Okill stood in a wrong position. His view was that Mr.
Okill might be placed in a more advantageous situation, and
let the law take its course. Place him in such a position
as an accountant or other person would be, when called in to
examine into the correctness of a mass of accounts ; to
ascertain that all indexes were kept up correctly ; that all
the leases were sufficiently checked; and do not let the
salary be any consideration if the Town-Clerk or the
Deputy Town-Clerk wanted efficient assistance. The
council would then have this advantage, that the Town-
Clerk, and any other officer who required it, might go to
him for information, and have it at any time ; for if anything
should happen to Mr. Okill, what was now before the coun-
cil would have to be gone into, and how much better was it
to have all the officers in their proper places when it could
be done with advantage, and they could obtain from Mr.
Okill the valuable information he possessed, which was ne.
•
cessary for those officers who were really proceeding according
to the act of parliament. (Hear, hear.) The fact was, that if
Mr. Okill were taken away from them this matter would
have to be begun again, OP novo ;—(hear)--and the evidence.
in point of fact, showed that time had been lost by the act not
being observed. There might be inaccuracies in the report,
but those inaccuracies would be found trivial when compared
with the importance and extent of the subject now before
them. He would suggest that, if any discussion should
arise, as had already arisen, about a word, that the council
should deal first with the main question, and afterwards de.
bate whether a particular word should have been used—dis-
missed, removed, or retired. (Hear, hear.) There were
two ways of telling a tale ; the committee had told theirs
from the evidence. If any gentleman should not approve of
the words used, be (Mr. Lloyd) would be the first to bow to
the decision of the council. Let them show that any parti-
cular portion of the report was wrong, and be would be the
first to apologise for it, or for whatever might hurt the feelings
of any one, or if the council said strong words had been used
where mild ones should have been placed. He therefore begged
to move the first of the resolutions which he had read. He had
at present said nothing about printing the evidence ; and why ?
Until they heard what the officers, who had to conduct the
business part of the system to be laid down had to say, it