The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-02-14 00:00:00

111 t s4rATEsMAN.

easeo-ra----
Alooflea was extremely popular. lie looked back
to that contest in which she had been engaged with
this country, with reverence and admiration for
America. That contest had terminated as all such
contests should terminate. Ile felt no jealousy of
the prosperity of America, convinced as he was, that
With proper management here, the snore she flourish-
ed, the more would this country flourish. He had
seen nothing after all that had been said that could
be looked upon as injustice on the part of America.
tie hadhearti a very great outcry against her injus-
tice, but he had seen none of it. lie had heard it
trumpeted forth long ago; that America was engaged
iti secret hostility against this couutry,b•t he. JO not
believe, it. Ile believed that America, placed in the
extraordinary situation in which she had stood, that
of the only neutral in the world, had done as every ,
1 other power would, and endeavoured to avail herself
1
of all the • advantages of her situation. Ile thought
that. England had been unjust to America, and had
required that of her which it was impossible for her.
to achieve. He thought France had acted unjustly
. to her, and required that of her which it was impos. i
• sible she could achieve. Placed in this situation, she 1
endeavoured, as long as she could, to preserve her
! .
independence by defensive operations. The Non-'
Importation Act had then been enacted, and after-
I wards the Non-Intercourse Act. In the measures
she had adopted; it did not appear to him that there
jwas. partiality towards France, or injustice towards
i England ; but he thought the Government of Francs
had been wise enough to recede from their measures;.,
: and thus gained advantages which we denied our- 1
selves. The bill spoken of as likely to pass, would,
' he thought, if- passed, be likely to five umbrage to
1 ?ranee, and it wa; the duty of the English Govern.
ment to endeavour, by conciliation, to avail them-I
1 selves of any difference that might arise between
America and France. He did not know that any
I thing that he could say in addition to what he had
offered, would be likely to influence the House more
than what he had already advanced : he should,
!therefore conclude; and, whatever might be the fate
of his motion, he should feel the satisfaction which
had consoled him on other occasions, however he had
failed of gaining the object he had in view, that satis-
faction arising from a conscientiousness of having
discharged his duty. Ile concluded by moving,
" That an Address be presented to his Royal Highness tbe
Prince Regent, praying, that towould be pleased to order co-
pies of ail the correspondence which had taken
_place between
Its Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Allows
aed the American Minister, or Charge d'Affaires, resident its
England, from Jan. I, 1810, up to 'the latest period, together
With all documents referred to in that correspondence, as also
Copies of the correspondence between Mr. Foster and air.
lluuree, together with the documents referred to therein."
Mr. STEPHEN' agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
that it would not be wise to discuss the Orders in
Council at that time ; but while he was glad that he
had delivered him from the necessity of entering into
the question of their justice and policy, he was sorry
that he should have thought it not inconsistent to
jump from the question, to the general conclusion
that the conduct of the English Government towards
America was wrong. From this unfair statement
(he would call it so) of the Hon. Gentleman, he felt
himself entangled in a dilemma. If he went into the
policy and the justice of the Orders in Council, and
;if the conduct of the English Government towards
America, he should he accused of provoking a dis-
4•CUSlion, Which it was desirable to avoid; while, on
.the other hand, if he did not go into them, it was im-
possible to do justice to what he believed to be the
strongest casethat,ever one country had against ano-
ther. He would take what he thought the safet
course, and not enter into the evidence. He would not,
enter upon it, because he hoped they would be deli-
vered from the necessity of imparting to that House
what had passed on so delicate a subject. With this
feeling he should content himself with general asser-
tion, as the Hon. Gentleman had done, and he
would declare that there never was a charge more un-
founded than that which they had just heard, of the'
conduct of this country being unjust towards Ann-.
rice. On the contrite!, nothing. but the strongest
aversion to a war could justify the English Govetat-
ment in the strong anxiety they bad evinced, and the
almost humiliating forbearance, which had marked ,
their conduct throughout the negociations, to :Kok! ,
that which the Hon. Gentleman had stated, but which.'
he (Mr. Stephen) did not feel would be so fatal
to this country. He questioned not whether we
would go to war with America,. bit whether or not
America would go to war with us.. Oat this subject
he did not wish to speak, as its discussion could lead
to nothing of good ; but if the Hon. Gentleman would
force the question to be agitated, as he could if he
pleased, he (Mr. Stephen) would pledge himself to
he there, and to fellow him through the whole sub-
ject. Tilt then, to what had bean ackvanced, he should
only oppose a general negative. The Orders iu
Council were nocunjust, nor even impolitic, and he
denied that the people of America, 'or the merchants
of this country, looked upon them as having been so
injurious to tradeiLtioy, had .110 on said to ,be.. If.
they did do so, they must have forgotten all that had
passed in that House en the subject, and go in the
'face of evidence whieh proved to demonstration that
such was not the fact. With respect to . what had
anihilate

ferring to his letters of the 30th of April, 3d L
' June, and Bth of August*, on the subject of the Bev
lin and Milan Decrees, and asking an answer. To
this no satisfactory answer was given. Letters dated
December 8 and December 10 were written, and '
;,..thole leading tct no satigagtory reselt, Mt. Pinkney
demanded his aidleticerbf leave. A passage in the
l Speech of the Prince Regent to Parliament, which
appeared at a period. net very remote from that last
alluded to on' the subject of America, raised new
Itninfrofham multalfiettentlnatlon of the peatdlog tic-
' gociationc The paragraph, though in itself very Nei-
. vocal, merely stating that discussions were going.on,
aml that every dieposition existed to conciliate Ame-.
rico, consistently with the honour end interests of this
l countre, 'raised great hoPesAliat the negociation was
i
going on in a way from *filch there Wakevery reason
Ito hope the- isseor - would be 'favourable; no such
thing ; at that time Mr.' Pinkney . had demanded '
his audience of' leave, and the negociatious• ate
i America were at an end. The negociations had
at that period terminated, and they were -resumed,
and not continued, when Mr. Foster was sent
from this country.—After this, little appeared
to have been done towards effecting the impor-
i tent objects which both Governments professed
Ito have in *tie*, from the correspondence be,
tweets Mr. Foster and the American Government,
which was then on the table before him. It had I
been hoped when Mr. Foster was sent out, that he I
had new instructions, but on his arrival in America, I
!it was found that he only went to offer whet had
been previously rejected, and to re-state what bad
often before been stated in vain, and thus his massless
I was only productive of disappointment: He pun. .
1 posely abstained. from a discussion of the policy of 1
the Orders in. Council. Whether they were good
lor bad, and whether the Berlin and Milan Decrees '
were or were not - repealed, were other questions
which would in a few days be brought before that
House by an Honourable Friend of his, when he
hoped an attendance more proportioned to the im-
portance of the subject would be given. RE would
confine himself to asking for that which was neces-
sary to the llouse preparatory to their entering into
the subject which lion. Friend would bring for. f
ward. lie only called for that which was necessary
to- a decision, which, as he thought, must soon be I
formed on linisters, who, in his opinion, had
brought this country to the verge of a war with Ame-
rica. The last letter which had passed between Mr.
Foster and Mr. Munroe, which had been published,
was dated October 31, 1811, and he begged to be
understOod to ask for nothing which had not been
printed. The Message of the President was sent to
Congress on the sth of November following, and
on the 10th, a Committee on Foreign Relatious
made a report of an unfavourable nature to this
country, and there was no doubt but it was the feel-
ing of America, that the mission of Mr. Foster had
been totally ineffectual, and was in point of fact ter-
minated. Under those circumstances his bumble motion
would only call for what had here already been made
public. Ile was sorry to say it, but the correspon-
dence between the twd Governments was so vo-
luininous, and the novelty was so completely worn
off, that to' those who were most deeplX interested
in the question of peace or war between the two
countries, it must be very tiresome to read, and in
consequence of that, he was afraid but few gate
the attention it merited. He did not mean to throw
any reflection on the talents of the correspondents
on either side, as when a correspondence had been
carried on for years on the same subject, it was to-
tally impossible to make it otherwise than palling.—
, On the important question of peace or war withAme-
rice, the (louse was not called upon to decide that
night ; he only called upon them to demand that in-
formation which could alone enable them to decide
on that great question. They could not properly de-
; cido on it without having the papers for which he.call-
ed to refer to on their table. However little might
be felt on this subject in that House, out of doors its
importance was well known, and no small iuterest
was taken even in the success of the motion he was
about to make. Whether England had acted unjust-
ly towards America, or whether America had acted
unjustly towards England, whether the blame
ought to be thrown upon France or upon Eng-
land, or upon America, he did not call upon them to
decide. Whatever was really. the case, and whe-
ther the Orders in Council were wise or unwise ;
whether they had been acted pp to, or whether to
act up to them, had been found impracticable, were
things which he would nut call in question ; but of
this, he believed, nobody could doubt ; that great
commercial distress had been experienced, and that if
the market of America were to be thrown open to
us, it would be felt to be a great and signal blessing:
War with America, it was equally obvious, would
be a great evil : and war once commenced, no man.
• could tell what might tbllow. It might be welt for
;vs to talk of putting .down America, of inflicting
chastisement, &c-as it 14 was its dm power. or Eng-
land to .annihilate her : We might talk this well, but
we could not put . America down. She was there
where we- had placed her; it was not in the power
of England to --,nihilate her, and it was therefore

„ an
the interest of England to be her friend. He was I been said of the power of this country to any
not certain that the time was not gone by for couci- 'America, he would ask the Honourable Gentleman
Hating America, and had he spoke eight and forty where in that House he could find it asserted that
hours sooner, he might have been inclined to have England could or would annihilate America ?—He
pronounced it altogether past. He had had fears that knew pretty well the sentiments of many of the Gen-
the Constitution frigate, which went from France in tlemen who sat in that House, and he knew of but
the course of last month, had carried that with one feeling on the subject—an earnest desire to avoid
her which might prove fatal to this country.-- a rupture. When the possible annihilation of Ame-
Within the last 24 hours new arrivals had partly rica, iu -the event of a war, was contemplated, it
removed such apprehensions. The Act spokenof as was only from an idea of the resistance that Awe-
likely to pass, admitting English manufactures which rice would make hetself, to the measures of its own
lipoi been purchased bona fide before Feb. 1, 1811, Government, if placed in such a situation. He was,
had given the people of this country 'great hopes of however, far from thinking with the Honourable
relief, as it was felt that acting upon the false-swear- Gentleman, that the more' America flourished, the
iug system noticed by Mr. Pinkney, almost any more thiacountry must necessarily flourish. If, fhr
quantity of goods might be swore into America. The instance, America got ,all the carrying, and all the
joy, however, expressed at this prospect of an, open- coasting trade of France, to vend the nouitfuctures
iug market, sufficiently proved how great a blessing both of the new and old world, it, was to him a pa-
such a change would be sonsidered. The Orders in radot bow the presperity of America could tend to
Council had disappointed thoie by whom they were that of .England. ' Ile 4ho.aglit it.was not very wise
frames!, and there was hardly a merchant to be found pOr Jery politic in .the Honourable Gentleman to
who did not complain of 1
their operation. On this speak-of the perjury ancl fraud which might profit
question, however, be dirnot eall upon the Hearneby the meant* now in contemplation in America,
to decide, bat Ise called upon diem ' over and overlas temdting from the Orders in Launch. Where
again to put themselves In possession of that !elem.! tiboatkletjUdeiand Arab& were most isracOsedt was
Lotion which he had endeavoured to show %As so no. whatie.ibe 0 ohms In Coancil did not exist. The Ho-
reestary, /le coal Ant kat admit 44 41111 kill ningetk qfpfikary fkotse the Partial repeal of the
. . . ~ . ..... . .

a V

.

.

•
• •
, • •
• •

dtehpelocirrzt as ms
muchtatir
Orders in Council, and overleoked
of that perjury which he (Mr. S.)
as any man could, being most prevalent in the Galt;;
and in the trade with those places which were r'4 )
fromootheoperatl noanoxioftohsetoOardreerist itnheCirooluzill
Icild
..
Niov mancld be more
ing evil of a war than himself—but he contentfie,
that it did not rest with his Right .lionou e
determine the
tilywithgtoleiestGioonveorfumweanrt
or
rf this country, toraw
lieved America was not in her conducraaotntijohilueeeHal:.t.
t toe:: n
advancedsupposed
a.and
dne
e.wdhltie frho trtohribe
pretensionsire,: w h
it
ei
he both
e-
nlitlievedrAtiheat6sl7
Gentleman
i notoem advanced
e before,ra
lieved she had been led by France to advance preten.:
sious which she had not the tight of Were. On this
subject he wished to say nettling, but found it diiil:
cult to restrain himself from defending the line ot
conduct pursued by thin country more at large.. I(
was not a ciaestion with Government ,whether or etc
we should go to war with America, hilt mlietin,r it
was possible to remain at peace ?-11e trouid not iae
without risking our greatness, he w-oad not say witi.
out risking our lionour,, he would not say ui !mat
risking even our security, but without risking the
very existence of this country.
Mr. CU RW EN insisted, that it Was impossible
the House could he prepared for the discussion of the
important topics connected with the Orders in Coun-
cil, without the information called for by the me.
tion. lie put it to any man, whtther, if any other
power had treated Great Britain as our Government
hatlyeated the American Minister, we would not
have thought it a just cause of complaint, and even
of war, unless a satisfactory explanatioornthoer
srtielp):::
tion could be procured ! The Hon. Gent: who spoke
last did wise to abstain from that part
as he would have found it difficult to produce any ar.
guwents in justification of such a line of conduct.
His lion. Friend (Whitbread) had said, that he rested
the case on the ground of justice. He did not
agree with him on that point. Experience of
the effects of the unfortunate system which had been
adopted, called loudly for an alteration, independeet
of the consideration of justice. lle would a.k,
whether a greet Statesman, who bad once given hie
opinion in favour of the Orders in Council, had not
now stated his conviction that they. ought to be re.
tracted ? America had a right to carry her own pro-
duce wherever she chose,—a right which had always
been considered as belonging to every nation. H.
had the greatest satisfaction, however, in the pro-
spect, that with whatever pertinacity the commen.
cers of this system persevered in it, they would not
be long enough in their places to carry it much far-
then—Ulan-, hear, hear ! from Mr. Perceral.l—
said this not from any personal dislike of the
Right lion. Gentleman, but purely from a convic-
tion, that his measures would be ruinous to the coun-
try. A change of men would signify little, without
a change of policy ; and if the country were to
perish, he had rather it should perish in the hands
of the commencers of the system, than in the hand:
of those who had disapproved of it. He could not
bet lament the thinness of the attendance when a
question of so much importance was under agitation.
.-one of the worst symptoms of the times was a
want of feeling for the public interests. He trusted
they should not be celled upon to decide this ques-
tion without the requisite information. Next to the
subject of Ireland, this was, of all others, the most
important. If the Right Hon. Gentleman persevered
in denying the production of these papers, this
would of itself be evidence of shostile feeling towards
America—[hear, hear ! from Mr. Pereeval.]-110
affirmed that it was a proof that Ministers were afraid
to meet the discussion fairly. fie concluiled by ex-
pressing his strong conviction of the danger and las-
policy ofri war with America, and his wishes that,
by timely precaution, it might still be averted.
The —CHANCELLOR of the „EXCHEQUER
could not pretend to say what conclusion the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Ctirwen) might draw in his owe
mind, or what he might be disposed to argue; bat
he was convinced that his conclusion was wrong, if
he supposed that the refusal of the wen moved
for could only proceed from, a spirit of hostility
to America. Ou the contrary, if he now wished to
withhold those papers from the Hon. Gentleman, it
was merely to avoid quarrelling with America, if it wee
possible to avoid it. The object of moving for dune
papers was to have a discussion on them when grant-
ed ; andeit appeared to him that any parliamentary
discussion which could,now take place upon the sub-
ject, must necessarily tend to increase rather than
allay the irritation on the one side or the other. Liu
agreed with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.. Whitbread) in
considering the subject as one of extreme importance
and interest. It was, moreover, a subject of great
importance to us, whether it was this country than
should ho forced into a war (if war could not be
.tvoided) by America, or whether the war should re-
ied from soy misconduct OR ',he put of the British
government. He must, however, always maintain,
that as to the spirit of conciliation always professed
in the diplomatical correspondence between the Os°
countries, it was most sincere upon our part. The
Government was alive to all the advantages of ran--
ciliation with America ; but still they felt it doll
imperious duty not to abandon those maritime rights
which this country had ever maintained, and which,
if once relinquished, would leave the country but
little more to give up. lie felt, that the eueitl"
had been narrowed very much by the Houourabls
Gentleman has iug declined to argue it. co the
gitriocuondosneoilf. thTehpoos Iticiy)oinatned
hjeois:aidee
prof ofetshsee Or
d a
‘dvei,rolt
.
to discuss on a future day, A% hen the motion
_a
which an lion. and Learned Friend of hi ()lr
Brougham) should be brought forward. He cooi d
nnoout
vbaubtiesay(lenthtlaetmahne fheimlttesitordryid, thatoot sincetiolili.
the lie-
the
proper time to go into the question of the jo. 10
and policy of the Orders In Council, he had n
hesitated to pronounce his opinion of their ilki(v:
ip`
tic and impolicy. He could not hut regret
.ite
see the Gentlemen who usually sat ou the oti
.:
side of . the'. "House, had so little hesitation t
coving
untry.. L
gqpeainionr,
heas.agla3iustmtehye .ehrootothise :efcoiti.ech7t,
commencers—totittn.tZentleman (arms
not thosessiso were now his Majesty% Ministers.
tits
ea fresh tho Gentlemen on the other side Oat
r.corbscrierorl_pw
oar
tphhisra„sestferoolt,no.eti.;

r

......--
syctem commenced ; and if they imd steadily main-
tained their - would n eaow be much
Jess of that of the injustice of
the conduct it was, indeed, very
natural for rhen they read the
speeches of in our Parliament
charging tiv is country with in-
juitice, to . Must be injustice.—
The Hon. Get misinformed, if he
thought that tt Ministers were the
original au( Iresl and that they
therefore found it necessal to confirm them' - their

*ciliation at i still greater distance. Ile would frankly
Confess; that in his opinion this country had pot been
sufficiently attentive to the conciliation of Amerks.
Indeed, generally speaking; he had often thought it
would have been much for the interact *adds country
had the
perions 'who filled-the high situations of the
State been a little more abundant in, their attentions
to the Enioys of foreign Powers, and particularly
to the Ambassadors of America ; because that power
was naturally apt to be jealous, lest she should not,
receive the same attentions al those that were paid to:
older States. [hear, hear!] Ile could' wish the
persons to whom he now alluded, only-to reflect
hOw much the happiness of millions depended oti their
conduct ; and how greatly incumbent upon them it
Wait to sacrifice their own case on occasions where so
much was at stake. For his part he was ready to
admit, that there was scarcely any measure, con•
psistent with the-honour and security of the country,
to which he-would not reaort, rather than engage in
a war with America • but at the same time he must
be' permitted to
.41,
.that he did not regard this
motional calculatt4, in its effects, to promote con-
ciliation. • Neither was lie prepared- to throw the
blame of our commercial distresses entirely upon
the guitars in Council. These orders had. at first
been very popular among the mercantile classes ;
and though many outcries sliould now rise 'against
them from the same. quarter, ygt.the House ought
not, when discussing their policy, to be influenced
by feelings. ;which. such complaints were apt to -
excite • but . tis. :look back on the past, as well as
forwar'd*to Pies future, and form • a comprehensive
view-of ihst could be most beneficial to the country
intider all cireanastances. lie felt that a war with
,Aistsetica wonld„baeatremely hurtful to this wintry;
1,1)11/ .ise. helievertikivattild be still mere-calamitous to
Anieripit. He was also of oeiniou, that among all
thiniing men in this country, there was the strongest
disposition. to ma,iptaio peace between the two na-
•tions. Of ta:the'honest and cordial warmth with
which Mr. Pinkney, the late American Minister,
was received at all the public meetings which he at+
tended in this country, afforded a convincing proof.
He could not agree with the Honourable Mover,that
the American Government was actuated by feelings
of perfect impartiality and justice towards us; in-
deed he was astonished at the assertion, that its
conduct had been fair and.equal as .between this coml.
try and France. Out still he would espin assert, •
that there was hardly any sacrifice t ompitible with
the safety and honour tif Britain, which he would
not make to re-establish and confirm the amity be.
tween the two nations ; while, on the other hand,
ho trusted that every intelligent American must per-
ceive, that a sacrifice which should ruin our navy,
would eventually lead to the destruction of America
herself. . . •
Mr. THORNTON,thought, that to interfere a ith
1 the negociation would be to blame Ministers, and
he was not pipared for such a step. The ptilicy of
the Orders in Council was shortly to be discussed;
and he would not, by his vote, prejudge that ques-
tion. He coofessed, that whenthose Ordersim Court-
' cil were first, agitated, he had- voted against them •
but it was now at, least doubtful whether they had
been advantageous, or the contrary, in their practi-
-1 cal effects ;;and if it should be found that they had
supported the resritime rights of England, v% ithoet *
the mainteinamoe *4- whick.rigista it war. impossible for -
England to exist as a nation, he would then coticeive
.himself right in altering hispriginal,opiniOn concern-
ing
them.' %Then the question of those Orders' in
1 Councii should come to be discussed; he hoped -that
those Members.Conneeted with trade would lay be-
fore the House all the, luformation and all the facts
F.
in their
_possession, and thereby, enable the iloyse to
forata solemn and fairjudgme.nt upon it. As to the
argument drawn frans•the immorality: and Sinjeetice
.of these Orders, that, he conceived to he altogether
angenerous and unfair. •. - .. •• .•
Mi. 133.1t1 NG ,explained.,. : .. :.•
The Hoer Mr. HUTCHINSON said, that he dif-
fered totally freeesthe-ion. Memberi for Yorkshire,
in giving op his confidence •to the Minister. So-far,
indeed, was he from pi icing confidence in the Mi-
I nister, that, not toepeak, of a mease te saf such. vital
I importance as.that. of peace or war, he was not dis-
posed to place the- slightest reliance ..on him even in
the most trivial matters. Ile thought it right to take
! the business of America out of his, hands: if possible,
and to leave it to the wisdom of -the House, which
i might be more likely to avert the calamity of war
I than he, who was not only against conciliation with
America, but against conciliation with a great portion
of our own empire. There was no man who had the
spirit of a freeman but would prefer war to humilia-
i tion • but he would say most solemnly and most sin-
; certify, that if he were to judge- between the two
countries, he should be obliged to vote agtinst his
own; he should be forced to say, that Eagland had
acted most tyrannically and unjustly to America. The
rights which the Minister claimed for 'England were
those of plunderers; and Englishmen,big withthe spirit
of their Constitution, should tell him, that they would
not act like plunderers in compliance with his tyran.
nice! policy. The Member for Carlisle-had expressed
a hope, that other men would soon succeed to those
stations, in which the Right Hon. Gent. and his col.
leagues had shown themselves so iticacable : bat
what was the Right Hon.-Gent:B reply to this honest
hope? He told the House (and it ought to go forth
to the country), that whatever golden dreams that
Hon. Member indulged in, might be disappointed j
he, in fact, told the. House, and not unequivocally, •
that he was to be the future Minister of England. ,
How the Right Hon. Gent. could possibly think of -
facing au indignant country at the commencement of
a, new
notera ,iingsaucihnaes; the present awful period was,
_IN-.'
but of one thing he was certain,
that, if the Minister and his colleagues, or any other
patched Administmticui, -should continue to act on
the.system which had. been hitherto pursued, they.
would soonahake•the Monarchy to its foundation,
Comititsition beneath its ruins. He
observations 'on 'the
- by saying, that
he plunderer's.,
, the baseness to
!rteriwihenches.)
'lie last Speaker •
and end of his
,
contempt of the -Mi-
mush, to be sure; to

, %IBC, I
r own principles there
t opinion in America,
t of Great pitain.
r the Americans, whe
of leading •Members i
he Government of thi
suppose that there mi
Gentleman was much
at his Majesty's present
ithors of those measui