The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

ROUSE OF COMMONS.
a L
Mr. H. THORNTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill for
extending the powers of the Act for erecting a Brltige over the ,
Thames. near Vauxhall. •
A new Writ was ordered for the town of Derby', in the room
tithe lion. Wm. Cavendish, deceased.
Mr. RICKMAN presented a Report from the Commissioner'
appointed to enquire into the offices of the Horse of Commons.—
Ordered to lie on the table.
On the motion of Mr. KENRICR, leave was given to bring
in a Bill to make a provision for the Clerks in Chancery, after
atertain term of service.
Mr. MELLISH presented a Petition from several Licensed
Victuallers, praying that they might be allowed to gise evi-
dence before dse Police Committee, of certain grievances under
svhich they, now labour.—Neferred to the Committee on the Po-
bee. •
Lewd -tOLKESTONE presented a Petition fioni certain
potions confined in the Jails of Winchester, prasing for relief.
by an extension of the last Am for the Relief of Insolvent
Debtors.
The insolvent Delletra-pwilik* Lords' Act Anwfidment Bills '
were read a second tinitriand thmrnitted for Monday.
The Prince Regenes'Expenees Bill, after a few observation.
from sir T. Tnrton, went through a Committee, the Report of
which was ordered to be received on Monday.
Mr. M. A. TAN LOR gave notice, that no Friday, Feb. 1.1,
be would move the revival of the Committee appointed last
Session to enquire into the delays of Causes in Chancery, and of
Appeals in the House otLords.
On the third reading of the King's Household Officers' Bill,
Mr, BENN ETlV,roposed a new clause which was rejected, and
the Bill was then read a third time and passed.
BANKRUPT MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.
Mr. LOCKHART rose to call the attention of
the House to the consideration of this question, whe-
ther any, and what Members of that Honourable
house had a right to sit and vote there, after they
hail been regularly declared Bankrupts? In the time
of Edward the First,a Proclamation had been issued,
directing Sheriffs not to return persons who were
Bankrupts as Members of Parliament. That Pro-
clamation, however, had not been properly attended
to, and therefore that did not go to disqualify per-,
sons so situated from sitting in Parliament. The dis-
qualification, if any existed on that ground in law,
arose from the circumstance of the parties so situated
not z r aioing that qualification which was required N
by 1w to sit and vote in that House. ow lie con-
t
ceiv that the law not only required that a Member
of Prtrliament should have that qualification at the
time of his election, but that he should retain it so
long as he retained his seat. It would be but a
mockery, if the law required such a qualification in
the first instance, and afterwards dispensed with it,
so that a person could be invested with it for one
day, and though he 14)A it for ever on the next, con-
tinue a Member of that llonse. lie did not presume
to say that an inquisitorial power should be given to
look into the qualification of a Member at any time,
but he thought it might be right when it was noto-
rious that such qualification had been publicly taken
away by the operation of the law, that a member
should no longer retain his seat. Such a regulation,
however, he did not say could be extended to the
whole House of Commons. The Scotch Members,
and the eldest sons of Earls, lie moved as exceptions.
The lion. Member then cited various statutes on the
subject of the qualifications of Members of Parlia-
ment, and concluded a very able speech, by moving
" That a Committee be appointed to enquire if any and what
persons,being Members of this House. and becoming bankrupts,
arc capable of sitting and voting therein."
Sir C. PRICE seconded the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served, It was dear, from the Hoe. Gentleman's own
argument, that at present the House could not come
to a resolution that bankrupts were excluded from
sitting there by any existing law. If it could at all
be contended that a bankrupt was by law incapable
of sitting there, it was only by au inference that his
qualification was affected by his bankruptcy, but
still, as persons had seats in that House, who had no
qualification by property, their qualifications could
not be affected by bankruptcy, and therefore
by law it could not be maintained that bank-
rupts were excluded from Parliameut. It was ano-
ther question, whether or not there might be reason
for making a law to exclude bankrupts from sitting
there; but as the law at present stood, they could
not by any means be excluded. A Member of Par-
liament might become a bankrupt after the close of a
session of Parliament, and might get a certificate
' signed by the time the next Session commenced,
and gain new property to qualify him to hold
his seat, and was lie then to be dispossesed of it on
such grounds ? In cases of fraud, env one could move
the expulsion of a Member on that ground. A
Member of that House might lose his property after
one Session, and yet, by the death of his father or
relation, or by some other circumstance, he might be
the next Session be .a richer man than lie had ever
been before. A person might be a bankrupt, with-
out being insolvent, and insolvent without being a
bankrupt, so that the mere circurroante of his being
made a bankrupt was not of itself enough to disqua.
lify a man from holding a seat in that House. He
objected to the motion before the Housev which
was for appointing a Committee to inquire if any,
and what learsous were capable of sitting and
voting there after being made Bankrupts, or in
other words (he was sure his Honourable Friend
would know he meant nothing disrespectful), the mo-
tion was for the appointment of a Committee to read
an Act of Parliament. This he thought utinecessary4
as he could not see that this House could entertain
any doubt of what the law was on that subject. If
any doubt existed, it might he proper to appoint a
Committee to search the Journals : but on the present
occasiou, he could see no necessity to appoint the
Committee proposed. Whether or not it might be ex-
pedieut to bring iu a Bill to alter the law, was quite
another question, on which at present he had no dis-
position to pronounce an opinion.
Mr. A. BARING opposed the motion, as being
ill-timed.
Sir C. PRICE spoke in favour of appointing a
Cesimittee.

Sir F. BURDF.TT thought some inquiry of the
nature proposed exttemely desirable at the present
day. if they were to permit Members to sit in that
House who were not qualified to hold seats there on
account of the pressure of the times, they might as
well at once write up, in the words Of the Poet, over
their door—
" Broken and Bankrupt fortune' mended here."
• He complaiued of the privileges of Parliament, which
enabled its Members to evade the payment of their
just debts, and in particular, alluded to the case of a
Member who had availed himself of the privileges of
that House, without any intention of ever setting his
foot in it, to cheat his creditor% of 30;000l. and fly
the country. Ile concluded, stating it to be his in-
tention to vote for the motion.

After a few words from Mr. Baring, Mr. Brand,
and Sir John Newport, Mr. Lockhart replied. The
question was then 'put, and the motion negatived
without a division. '

STATE OF TIIF. POLICE.
Sir FRANCISSURDETT rose in consequence
of the House having rescinded a part of the Order
which it had made on a former evening, on the mo-
tion of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
',Ryder); he was.sorry he had not received the note
of the Right Hon. Gentleman earlier than he did, to
which he would at least have returned an answer.--
It had not reached him in time to enable him to do so
before the subject was brought forward, in
consequence of his having been detainedin the coun-
try by very important business.—He thought
it exceedingly improper to rescind that part of
the order which had been rescinded on the
motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. His object in
moving for the qualifications of those who had been
appointed Magistrates, was to shew that persons had
been improperly appointed. He considered it as a
matter of importance that the House should know if
Ministers had paid attention to the law which had
been passed on the subject, in the appointments they
had made. The law set forth that as Magistrates of
counties were entrusted with great powers, it was
expedient to make such regulations as might keep
persons in mean situations from holding such offices.
It was therefore enacted, in the time of George 11.
66 That no person should act as a Magistrate, who
was not possessed of property to the amount of 1001.
per annum, in the county in which he was to ad-
minister justice." This was intended to prevent Ma-
gistrates becoming the tools of Government, as he
had often seen them prove themselves of late. At
that time 1001. was a very considerable sum, and such
an annual income was thought a tolerable inde-
pendence, thepossessor of which was not expect-
ed to be the tool of Government, at least it was
thought he could not be such from necessity. Justice
at that time, he must observe, was not administered
with such severity as it had been of late; but at pre-
sent, the country Gentlemen to whom such powers
as were given to Magistrates might perhaps be en-
trusted with the greatest safety, were frequently
overpowrred by the union of the Magistrates in ad-
joining Counties. His plan in moving for the Order
which had been made by the House, was to see if
Ministers had any regard themselves to that law which
they had got passed under pretence of benefiting the
- • .
public, while it imposed on them a very considerable
expence. It was taken for granted that enormous
a:Bo existed in the presentosystem, and he took it
for granted that those abases might be traced to Mi-
nisters themselves.- It appeared to him highly desir-
able that the House•should be put in possession of all
that information for which he had called, and he
should therefore certainly move that that part of theor-
der which has been rescinded, should be reinstated in
the order. If this were not done, if Magistrates were
not called upon to shew what were their qualifica-
tions, when an inquiry into the state of the Police
was instituted, how could that House pretend to
look into the conduct of public officers ? Ilow
could it be done, if they were not to be called
upon, lest their answers should criminate teem-
selves ? With a similar feeling, it had formerly been
said, that Lord Melville ought not to he called upon
to account for the public money which he had held
in trust for the public. To him it appeared very
important that the House should know whether the
persons appointed by Ministers to fill.important si-
tuations, were, or were not, such as they ought to
be, according to their (Ministers) own Act of Par-
liament. If this information were withheld, what
might not be the evil effects of such conduct on
those who now held situations of authority ? When
it was asserted, that Magistrates ought not to be
called upon to state their qualifications, lest
their answers should criminate themselves, he
would ask, how had these Magistrates acted
themselves en a late occasion-?—Had their con.
duct been regulated by such a principle as that
which it was contended, with a reference to them,
ought to be constantly kept in view ? What had
they been doing in the late examinations which had
taken place of persons who were supposed to have
been concerned in the murder of the late Mr. Marr's
family ? What had they been doing, but endeavour-
ing to make men, whom they had ever so little rea-
son to suspect, say that which might criminate them-
selves ? This inquisitorial power they had been in
the habit of exercising daily, and what right had
they to inflict the punishment which they had inflict-
ed on persons brought before them ? What.was now
the situation of that unfortunate person who was in
confinement on suspicion of being concerned in the
late murders, Alblass ? What was he kept for?—
Why was he put in chains, immured In a dungeon,
and called upon every day to criminate him-
self ?—lt was stated in. .the daily printo, that •
the only circumstance against him was, las in-1
ability to account for a quarter of an hour of
his time on the night on which one of the mur-
ders was committed. If this were all the ground
of suspicion against him, they had no right to keep ;
him in prison ; they had no right to treat him as he
bad been treated. What was it done for For
what purpose but to make him criminate himself?'
All this was known to the ,public, but no complaint
was heard. There might, he owned, be some ex-
cuse found for it in the anxiety to bring those to
justice who had committed such terrible outrages,
but he thought those who suffered thus, and who
sufered without cause, ought to be made some
amends for what they had endured. That had not
been done. These poor men had been called upon
Ito criminate themselves, and this was not thhught
wrong; but when public peculators, Police Magis-
trates, and persons holding si!uations of some authori-
ty, were called upon to give an account of themselves,
they were to be told in that House, that such enqui-
ries should not be made, lest the answers of the par-
ties concerned should go to criminate themselves.
This, however, he was. sure of, that every qui lam
could give the information he (Sir F. Burdett) called
for, when he pleased, and therefore, he only asked
that for the House which any common informer could
get. The Police Magistrates might many of them
have been qualified to hold their situations when they
first received them ;• but if that which qualified them
Lad since been lost; or sold, 'or otherwise. disposed
of; they ought not, in his opinion, to be allowed
longer to retain their situations, as they might be

TI 1 gIIATEgd)&.

made the mere tools a the Minister of the day, as
.Car as the, powers with which they were invested
-would go. eln consequence of the late increase of
crimes, , there had appeared a disposition in the
House to do something for the better regulation of
the Police. lie thought it important to that end,
that every information that could he given should be
afforded to the !louse, and he should therefore move,
that that part of the order which had been rescinded
should be reinstated.—He accordingly...moved, " That
accounts be laid bef9re the House of the qualifica-
tions of the Police Magistrates, specifying what they
were, what they now are, and where."
Mr. RYDER stated the ground of the motion
which he had made to be this—The motion of the
Hon. Baronet had required that the Magistrates
should be called upon to show what their qualifica-
tions were, what they now are, and where. This
he objected to, because the Act required that no
Magistrate should sit without having a qualification,
which qualification should be registered. To that
part of the order which required what the gitalitica-
tion was, he had no objection; bait to that which
called for information as to what the qualification
now is, and where, he objected, as it would only
be obtained from the Magistrates themselves. How
did the case stand ? Why, by the 18th Geo. 11. no
Magistrate could sit Without a qualification; and who-
!
ever did so, was liable to pay for every act of Ma-
gistrftcy, the sum of 1001. The order call, d for
would therefore require of the Magistrates to, de-
dare whether or not they had done that which, if
done, would subject them to a heavy pe salty.
/ It called on the Magistrates to convict themselves if
they had acted without a qualification.. Now he
held that to be such a fundamental principle of the
English law, that a men cannot be called upon to
answer questions which go to criminate him-
self; that ke thought that House wou'd be very
careful how they proceededao violate it by any order
of theirs. The lion. Baronet had said that impro-
per appointments had been made. lie wished he
would come forward to prove that, and not have
recourseto the practice of throwing out general insi-
nuations. Ile knew that since he had been in office he
had appointed two or three Police Magistrates. He
I did not know whether the Honourable Baronet
meant to say they, or any of them were impro-
per, but if he did, he hoped he would cease to throw
out such pitiful insinuations as they heard, and
for once act a manly part, and boldly come
forward with his charge. This he hoped he
would do, and in the interim he would give it
as positive a denial as vrorels could convey. The
lion. Baronet had complained of the persons sup-
posed to be concerned in the late murders, being
called upon to criminate themselves. As far as he
knew, they had stood en the saute ground as all
other persons who were held in custody on strong
suspicion of being a p:u'ty to any great offence.—
Under such circumstances, the party was. uniformly
called to give au account of himself, but at the
same time told that he might be silent, or give such
answers as he pleased, to avoid crimivating himself.
He did not know that any thing had taken place
on the late examinations, it was hardly fair lot the
individual who had been mentioned, and who was
now in confinement to argue the subject at present.
He would, however, observe, that he had been exa-
mined by Mr. Graham, and that that truly respect-
able Magistrate had found the circumstances stated
against him so strong. that he felt it his duty to
commit him to prison. He had, undoubtedly, aright
to question the person accused, but in doing this, he
had always told him, (for it was a rule from which
he knew Mr. Graham would not depart), that lie was
at liberty to answer as he pleased. What grounds
then could the lion. Baronet have for complaining
against that highly respectable individual i—So far
was his conduct from deserving censure, that he
had no hesitation in saying, it was most worthy of
public approbation. •
Mr. TIERNEY agreed with the Hon. Baronet,
that it was necessary (as the Legislature had in the
first instance required, that Magistrates should prove
their qualification for office,) they should show that
such qualification was still inexistence. The House,
he contended, had the right to know the fact ; for
if; under any positive law, any Magistrate had-in-
curred penalties, there must be (said Mr. T.) some
mode of convicting him—The reason for refusing to
agree to the motion, he strongly suspected, was,
because it was known to the Government, that some
particular magistrates had infringed the laws. The
subject was important, and deserved notice. if the
mode of coming at the information which the lion.
Baronet desired was incorrect, no doubt from a
principle of public justice, the Right Hon. Secretary
would suggest the best mode of coming at the fact, in
order that the laws might not be evaded.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
stated, that there were two answera to the propo-1
adieu of the lion. Baronet: first, that there was no
reason to believe that the law was broken ; and se-
condly, if it was violated, it ought to be the last
thing far the House teti° to call upon the individual
violating, or charged with violating the law, to say
that he had so violated' it. There had not beet, any
ground laid, or charge made against any one indivi-
dual ; the motion merely surmised that such might
have been the case. Notiqns must not he entertained
by the House upon mere supposition that the law was
broken. Besides, there was a remedy given in the
Courts of Law by qui torn action, when the law
might be stated, the evidence produced, and then the
jury must determine. There was nothing in-the law
which did not . equally apply to the Magistrates of
Counties in England and Wales, as well as Po-
lice Magistrates. Would theliouse consent to call
upon Magistrates, under such circumstances, to
say, not what their qualification was at the time
they accepted office, but what it actually is at the
present moment. -Such a call would be unjust in
every principle. It was very easy for any per-1
son to hold the Magistrates up to view as acting
improperly in some cases, but would the House
take a mere Newspaper statement for truth
Ist the case of - Alblass4 there were some strong
circumstances of suspicion, which induced the
Magistrates to give him at least an opportunity of
clearing himself. The questions which had been put
to him, and which he had not satisfactorily answered,'
were soften' to authorise his detention until , he
ehouldinsanswer : and this detention would have the
effect, if he did answer satisfactorily, of not only

clearing his character, but of shewingithattheymaat.
least were warranted in detaining him. - If the
gistrates had proceeded to compel him to criminate
himself, then, indeed, they would have exceeded
their authority, but no such thing appeared. Mrheu
he was originally examined,. there were circumstance;
transpired which might have justified the Magistrates
in detaining him. When he was again apprehended,
were there not some additional circumstances which
came out in evidence fully authorising his fuother de.
Ljention ? There was then a certain degree of harsh.
ness evinced against the Magistrates by one set
of
thatthey had Gentlemen
t notin exertedth felou !themselvesst,wlao
to discover the authors of the crimes which had
so sullied the character of. the Metropolis..
Then up started another set of Gentlemen, enter.
taining dillerent ideas on the subjeet; aud%ey See
" Oh, we don't charge hlagistrites
I too laic, but we do charge them with usintiotS roach
severity." How were the Magistrates to aettkweea
these two extremes ? they were oSliged td discharr
a painful duty, but it became doubly painful es.
.posed to such animadversions. In the progress of
. discovering the perpetrators of the dreadful scenes
! which disgraced the metropolis, they were obliol
to examine many persons on suspicion, and they
had itt the elecution of that duty done nothing more
! than what might naturally- be expected. The Hoe.
Baronet had charged his Majesty's Ministers unfairly
ith Utak ing improper appointments in thelfueisteam
because if the person appointed had the qualificatiue
owfhenpoia
the
a4overttnnetf, there
ienttopr%eVvaesnio
tlhiainutflrioormi ty onsub the partseilonti
parting with that qualiiication. With respect to the
existing qualification, the Honourable House would
not desire it, and even if they did, there were stab.
cient official documents which could readily be fur-
nished, clearly to show what was required to be
sheen. Supposing Parliament was to institute an
inquiry at the Bar under a Penal Act which a Magis.
trate might conimit, and to call upon him to pro.
duce his qualification, he might chuse to answer the
question respecting it, or he might refuse, and the
House could not compel him to produce it. If,
therefore, the House could not do it in suave case,
they would he was certain, do it now.
Mr. WHITBREAD conceived that the chief of
the Right lion. Gentleman's argutnehts might as well have Ilk
prodsit•ed when the whole of the motion was Isefure the Hasse:
The imputation on the Magistracy was not thrown by the 111.
Baronet, but by the House st ho- had acceded to the otigii:si
'notion. The honourable Gentleman did not wish to cast Mr,.
upon them ; he was aware they were insitled to respect. Ili
of bent he knew well, Mr. Graham, a man of perfect iutegri•
of cretsulninate ability, and prone to administer the strut
justice. The public sere much indebted to Min. But diet
tem was not perfect. He well remembered its first introdurt
into the House, when Mr. Windham exerted himself mist st
nuoutly against the Act passing into a law, considering
principle of the systhn as franght with infraction on the IMer
of the gobjett. The oridinal proposers of it expected tor, •
fruit from tt, but they alere deceived. Instead of its produc
wholesome efleets, it tad the contralti' hearing. The object
the llou. Baronet wan to ascertain whether the .vlagistrates were
prop:iriy qualified. It rerips was not of h consegnettiji,
ay to the amount of their qualification, that the fact shout(' be
known„lntt it warof the gfeatest imporatnee to the publie,that
they should know whether, since they were appointed, they had
lost that it:: •pendeoce, for then it might render them depcn.leat
on the Goveritment. Ile was led to suspeel this was tiM, case,:as
the returns were refused, and should vote fgr the motion.
The ATFORNEY-GENEIt AL thought that the opinion sit
the lion. Baronet nos not sampletely nederstood by
unless he greatly misconceitted blur, he meant in broad team to
state that the appointments to the hlngistracy were Jobs—[.iir
Francis Bardeie here asses!. el to Me propuOion).—The lion.
and Learned Gent. observed that he was right in his Conjectitt ;
the Hon, Bait, had given him the assent which be expected he
would give, and the oesersations of his Right Hon. Fricassee
not throbn away. A doubt had been suggested irletber the'rs-
turns woeld helloed in evidence, if the House consented to per-
mit them ; they might and would be the strongest esideuer.--
The Legislature had provided the necessary gunid against abuse,
by enacting penalties fur fiat being properly gratified, *din-
tions might be brought in the Courts of Law against any Ma-
gistrates who were liable, but it would be a direct violation at
the law,to eall on them to prodace and state the nature of their
qualifications. He had no reason to suspect, in any Wow
whatever, that the law had !wen violated. •He resisted the ore
tion on the ground that it would be improper to furnish :he ac-
count called for. If the Mouse tolerated the motion, ever. Ma-
istrate in the kingdom would be liable to be called upon.—
With respect to proseeution, the House might direct one.
Sir J. NEW PORT thought the House I.ad divested „itself of
its inquisitorial powers by affixing a penalty.
hir F. BURDETT repliod ; in the course of evhiet*lse
claimed all idea of attacking the character of the Pullyyppl~u r'
gistrates, or of imputing blame to the present Govern;
observations were directed solely to the system.
The House then divided,
For the Motion 7
Against it
70
Majority
Tun LOCAL MILITIA.
Mr. Secretary It 1"1/Ell moved fur leave to bring in a Ili II to
amend She tow's relating to the Local Militia. The object
which the Right lion. Secretary had in view, was to remedy the
defects in the present Acts. and to engraft the amendinen s ho ,
one. The whole amount of the Local Militia was calculated it
title more than .our times the original quota of the Voliinisiir
force. It was not intended to cluninisa rte force but iu a tett
small degree ; for in ninny counties it was found that the reel-
moats had risen in point of numbers to a height which tte
them inconvenient and unmanageable. With a view to prevent
alarm, on account of the diminution, it would be propused ia
the new Bill to increase the numbers tVolit f air to sit thno
die
amount, whenever fear of invasion should aria and tat Of
liament should have hero assembled 14 days; that the t ommanill
ant should, at the end of the first fear years. when the time of
service had expired, have liberty to propose that the utensils I
extend their time for four years' farther, if they so chose, ant
that he should era what nattlarse had so extended Ouse "
vices. Great inconvenience had accrued to thesericultural,
eitinniercial interests, by calling the men out for 98 days. 5
holding so large a portion of the population (800 to 900,000nit'ii,
was attended with many inconveniences, and therefore it x
Bill.
cleamndeanlicere." Cit)onerhentdieftelisthithis en%toil;ibngy
cuffed with every part of the statement of ..is Right. lion.
Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON seconded the motion, andre:,
fdoirspilelsieutti;owbirtihngthaint
Friend.
read a second time this day fortnight.
toand
t lime,
otrdheerßeidll,towbheicpbrisnviedas aft,
rr
bardsl :t
vbrought hienn, grei vaedn to
had
agreed to the Sugar Export Bill, and 'tune other Bab:.
I thi:
A message from the lairds announced,
On the motion of Sir SAMUEL ROM 1 LLY, acconotso
ntunber of Convicts in the Gaols and on board the Hulks, fur
last two years, were ordered.
forlaivrto bring in a Bill to pare Act relating toitise,,..
bezzlesneut of Naval Stores to Id.—Adjourucd t I
that their I.ordshirs
Mr. CROKER gave notice that he should, on Monday,
day.

Esse-and Independence seem to be the Van of thr
present small Lottery, for a person purchasing otil
two 'Pickets may gain re .10,000, and thus at once
place himself beyond the frowns and cares of the
world. It would then he immaterial to him whether
the Minister raised New Taxes, or added tie I
cent. to the Old---whethyr we had Peace or War,l.r
he would be able to enjoy his Friend and his Bortic•
and drink success to Oid England, not forgetting 6".
18th of February, which is the day the whole le'-
tery will be drawn, and any Purchaser may have I,i•
wishet -realized.

LONDON: Printed and POlished IV D. Ilmvst-L, ot
STVII3IIII/4 (trims, $7, Fidet-street.

t.i.
I. , 1 .
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