The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-08-29 00:00:00

41• •ir

PRicie 9sretr Priwct.

answer better upon calling in the Counsel to dire that
they should go on with the crostrestaatiaatios, and if
they shoed have any objection to proceed, it would
then be open to them to state the grounds of suet: ob-
jection.
Lord FAMINE thought the objection urged hr the
Noble Earl who spoke last but one. quite untanseSle as
to the ides of not allowing Counsel to take part is
their Lordships. ' deliberations; for, front the eery ns-
Aare of the case they most necessarily do so. The Cour-
sei were there as advocates upon a canoe in which the:,
Lordships were the. Joeiges, and there could be no ra-
tional objection to hear these Lparned Gentlemen' stat,
shether they were willing to isebottud by* role which
it sa as proposed to their, Lordships to.rossirlist
The Pair olrLarneamsys expressed his approbati•Ai
of the rule proposed.
The Counsel being called in, the Loan cueasost.tase
repeated I% them the proposition of toed LISSi-pool,
which we tare recited, stating to the Coussel *Oust
the Bill, that if they had any thing to urge upov the
suhject of that proposition fur the interest of her Ma-
jesty they might then proceed.
Mr. B14701.1:11A/4 here addressed their Lordshit e to Vie
following effect:-1 have to thank your Lome airipo for
the very great kindness which you have inanifeeed by
allowing us an opportunity on the part of the Queen to
state our opinion upon the difficulty which you feel as
to the course or proceeding in which you are engaged.
I feel not. I assure your Lordships, mach difliculty.iii
stating our objections to the course which you now porn:
out, for it is in our minds peculiarly objectionable. But
whether a better course can be devised on this occasioy
or whether the embarra.,susent of yottr si:nation be in-
sot-mountable, is a totestio:l o lecli we certainly feel i:
very difficult to discuss. We cat.not think it diiticnit i 6
shew that the particular cuurae of proceeding put by
visor Lordships is liable to very serious objection. lie:
iirst, in vindication of our character and conduct, 801.-
me to say that the difficulty in which your lAwilsists •
are involved is not of our creation. If any difficulties
exist, be they numerous or great, he they noire or les..
be they remediable or instiritiouutable, they are nut, I
beg your Lordships to remember, owing to any fault on
our part. The party with whom this Hill of Pains an I '
Penalties or:Finated proposed measures to which we (da-
ted, but it always !teemed gosti and wise to your
Lordships to reject our objections, and to adopt their
measures. If then any difficulty has arisen to you
lift'
Lordships, it must be attributed to your acquiescence in •
their recommend:Alois, sod to the uniform rejection of
our supplications. We have, looked, always opposed in . s'
vain the wishes of our Learned Friends on the other
side, while we have never been gratified by your lowsl•
ships' adoption fur any proposal from its. rain therefore ,
entitled to conclude, that any difficulty in which yourLued -
shirt way he involved on this occasion proceeded from tbs.
Whet; aide, u hose stiggestions you have uniformly adopted,
a bile you have rejected ours, up even to the last art in the
great national dranil,in discussing which Ire Areas pr.-sect
engaged. I sin sot railed upon to point the best course
which it woold be aslvisable for your Lordships to jrnr-,
sue, or how you are to overcome the obstacles by which
cult are encountered, or whether the difficulties of Voir
iltnseleo ors otsweisetalp inossciasusustaslAL:flit,Patlla69"
in which yon pre placed, you bate takeu by yeinfolsolee.
Whether that situ:Mint belts pod Aspiet, be devis-
ed, or whether notch worse could hr iniTtplOCAt lt not
for me to consider at pretest. lip to Satitrilay last, up
eves to the eleventh hour yon persevered in your own
curse. We inteposed in rail to produce the adoption
of a different system. First of all, n e applied to your
Lordships for a list of the witnesses to he widowed in
this ease, and you decided against onr application, ii-'
tertniuiug that we should nut be even heard in support
of the petition which was presented on that occasion.
Secondly, a petition was presented to your Lortlahips for
an object still more +-Anatole, namely, for a spec:f!,..ttion
of the places where the acts of criminality charged upon '
oor Illustrious Client were alleged to hate been ow..
mined. But our petition was utterly ineffective. te .
wiled only for the privileges which are granted in the
ortiistary administration of justice in es. ry case, but
one applicati.ons were ineffectual. What ht allowed to
every defendant in a civil snit, and to t•very one at•cinwil
in a criminal proreeding, was refused to us—,tamely a,.
statenn•nt of the places where the alleged charges arose,
or oliere the alleged acts were committed. !fort
this statement was denied, we were left to an on• '
usual unprecedented latitude, both with respect to places
and to witnesses. lam not now speaking with respect
to the law of treas.''', as it refers to lists of wititerses, •
hot 04 it refers to place.. We have breu denied not only •
a list of the wittiessei. lint a specification of the 'Ascot i
where the arts charted are alleged to have hems corn-
)
witted. What is granted to every defendant or party at'
rllO9l, 1141 A, I repi•-.% been refused to ns. For here lee
h ts-e no statement of the county or country our Inns--
Woos Client has offended. The ernes, indeed, instead
Of bpi ug laid in any ',wilco'sr county or country, is I thl
Itt.this case in three quarters of the globe, in different .
reworks, pruri tiers, cities. towns, and villages, in piit-es
Inhahiled awl uninhabited, cultivated and uncoltiyitink
In for..-is and on seas, lakes, and rivers. Thus we WWI
no clue whatever as to the places or the witiareses. is ,
which our accusers mean to refer. Our province, itiy •-•.
Lords, is :he defence of innocence and not of guilt. (f .i.
we were guilty, we might have some anspiciou of Ike.:
places in which we had sinned, awl of the witnesses to
lie adduced against as. But hecan4e we have ois sen•e
of guilt we cannot imagine either. Hence our endia • .
~
ruts/sent is the result of our innocence: "for we cannot
conjecture the places where our accusers nay allege we
have been gttilty, or the witnesses whom they mean to
atithwe Inc the support of their accusations. In conse-
quence then of the • ,liarity of - situation..
tinder the '•---
your '
Psi:
!mailed
fair V

rifrhi
trial,
nisi♦

nes•:%
were

lion

WO wen
of sour
'Mr ;
NM. TOOT
retief
other
is now
is omit,
to your
are i.-

(Woe ,
which,

mei. then of the peet:liarity of our situation. we are
irr the difficulty of which wee plain, in our elfidea-
fr to defend our Ilinstrious Client sigaisst this Bill of
ins and Penalties, which my organs can never be pr-
ided to call a trial ; for it watts all the essentials of a
r trial, as tn,- Illustrions Client is deprived of all Oe.
hts and privileges which belong. to (bear:wed "npois
either by impeachment, or by any usollw of . •
tering justice in the ordinary course of lao.. Hat
ring ,been placed in stick a peculiar situation, es 7
by *your Lordships' refusal of The list el,
0._% at well as the specification of plates, we
re naturally, led to think. that some rmatpense:
n was dee :41 us. The .hope of each cesipensati.
were naturally encouraged to indulge by thelletyroaeo..
some individnalsof erect distinction among yowl
ps; bat as the difficnlty wader raids we labotired
s rose creation. we were justified in expecting ref .
from your L.ordships. 31y.l.eerned Friend pn
,er side himself feels the din caby iu wbicb this sue
sow involved. He malt be aware tlsat the diffirttlri •
'minty owing to your acquiescence in his wishes, anti
rossr rejection of our propositions. Our disattyantagys
indeed wholly attribetaltipwr your contrivance at the
set; and yet you propose tfi Woke that regnletio..
ice, by a more merciful contrivance, afforded us NI


`- .'" -

. .. .
Lie ari
..vattyte, although' by.that revoi`ation'yon
n:d a lire ua of that whichit 'or 'clear; airscrlitte,-
1 arfte rte riiolit—whith is. indeed a right allowed to
all !to eser water defendant or party avcused. Dis•
pc. r •-.1 a i we. n-ere in the tiro petitions to which 1 Lori
:e 4. referred, we were still, •f repro: tea to hope fur
i tipisusosiassfatiol-by that hope •
%erg pecsuaded to: be-
:v/1e parties. to this proceeding, which, without such'
a it7..ensultin *cute prove a mockery; and not a trial.
J•ii• are Went be stiß.tiertherslisapponutil? Whileetor.y.
Le antagelosi.bora.granied that could operate vomit
es. .
1241.a1l untr. be allowed that may tend to opetatt ft.**
n • • '' White we' fierthe Ail dshle of teinflOrr2dgetnentS.-
1.;: sibou r on* nothing-to your fesendidupi. Let till%
vt;4ll4.or‘nhipt te'reroklect. that you are punning a eon rge
if is jptlf4te4rititoat precedent, while yoi are esti •
so rio. a' i ohr that may lead Ito: .treat **Met
!'.!!caner etio to eattaerin apt deNlee.parallel. bas..ani
41.1 W of ptoineeding been adopted li Mitt Is
1.4.:,1 %on ale :it rront purtuint. 111 - tiettrtalltet
i'l,4c i, ttlrVporiliel.eatessi•divntee, i oaeolsb as " Pr*.
crtfVt9sPisetrtaq tlittiest.luttance. instituted in the Courts
1;.'91! 1 .it onid cite the pie of itie-Duchiss of Ittnrlcilk".
t'i th; 64' file DICSON'i reisenter Praetor; your
lAintit!rrsitit astatov Was othcer.tn Doctors' Commons
•--1400 ersiored so wend._ 'llls order is 1 11fi Jan.
if-alt Om tso 4*i! si .sppetfic.uies of the *sego was
t ..-aislie4,._ 1 n the ifilo it wait toblebted !Mir the" spetti-
,:atTi:ti ffsi eri'itifeloo'rinciA4l;:iiiii• oft • the *Mat
ca, 1r thxvo Won ilia:was .ressotedibi +:rare pactietlar
.I;446otiett.. t/p kite 244 die witnesses fur the Duke 1
v--eib6il-.111 ib fhe AO, hal two triply pages of yonr
faiNl.WOlotroPutwottoro dale/ with ntv. other matter
:t.,' An lIINi t ottuipitaoen, •2: tose proseediais.wfre, toff
1; ..e 3el !,law eapression, is initiodibirstlie witnesses;
be-rie '4l6lmo:eat rtillieli---names.'sitiailtins; ind'plaies 1
e• sbode. All the witoemes welt "Womb. the Piehtm's
i':octor *at. and the wilnessis were allowed to be cross-
evnputttlitccisely in the same manner in...which your
Liordylkips'lia've- hith.:rtO alloired us fe-ertosi•esatinine.;
• Isiii• irons asked such questions an " When dill
.yost
Ism tii liermale's; &c., in short. tbe usual latitude of
• ross-vcrisination was permitted. Ater this a delay of
twee, Aar Was giairted, in order to afford the • Mottos,
or cre,ostunity.of obtaining niateriais for cross•exasisin-!
et: ilie 4wit.briir". sow, my Lertis At is not proved '
I! it 1 ought soot to quote this case. I say, fought to
c.:,itie tliit'etis. and I 'Arm that it is in . point.-: It Is
•t.:wftrst esite--it is the leading case—it is the ruliog
cdsil ij Caned in the Books„ tli%:. great raie of tl!vorce. 1
' itectuae-this Is the 'Anti ease upon which all subsequent'
tomes at: built, because it 4s teriried-by test Writers the
greaten* of divorce, it scents 1 am nut to bq 4lowed to
cite it in a ',ltse of diOorce. '1
sa'y eniphatically this is
i4"tieiiee to ik hi rim your Lordships ought to-look. But
" at is goo that since that time no specification.of charges
gr mimesis., has been allowed in Tills cf DiCorees. Lin-
ennbtedly not, and *for a very obvious reason ; betty* in
Oitiubvenateiit cases there hart beep previous proceedings
• it the Courts,lirloo, which rendered such a specification
(I;lleresitary. the Ditehese of Norfolk's case *as the only
• c iNe, mull litidfore your Lordships' ittentlein to this fact,
. le orlthrb.len •retterseineda Bill 9( Divorce without pre-
...raons policetsfing. fin the I:olarts below. Yourtordsliips
" "tt re(v.dlit the !fill. - The second' ffine the Duke of Nor-
folk brought op the 11111. tlrere-.was no specification of
••,te`trairies of wltnrswr, because the proceeding", in the
t.ourts hekow famished a much more complete spccifict-
,• bon than any protettling% in foltiatibos could possibly
et,. To any t liii•Oefbte. that this is a case of no meth*.
City. becluiselt is the fast case, and because since doe
t,int • easeshave oi-currra under totally different MOW
~ • ~
,-,
rotlitees, if -.bid] there - •
-'l7feelßeili

gm/ in tto- _ . was ntr'astreasiditifor key
eatlon, is a piece of riasoning which were it upon
s7tch an ouraiion, and in such a place,•l should' call
c',;ldish and rontemptible. So much, for the ease of the
1/ochre( of Norfolk. in which, allow me to observe' .that
. P.Tee or lain icitureses opal the eraniination.li thief
jaivrtditretly to the fact of atinltely. One swore to
•Tfivfitg *en the parties in bed together, another to
/savior seen thelhichoui come out of the bed in which
t!.e suppreel adulterer was bring, and soother to having
eamest the parties in the fact in a room at Windsor.
in short. the evideuse opened such scenes of horrible
i lica.ythat I -cannot venture tsen to allude to them,
lc tie taco:list MC'S were detalyd with a MillieefleSS.
.s. partirdlnity 'tidal Ido not remember to have seen
Ar" Inv other else cif this deicifAion, for almost every
•th `ni 4%' peeved' bi- 'tortilla demonstration. ,'Notwith-
...orinding these depoiittons, however, so material was'the
.',asip:s.titansinotion, not one quktion of Which' wonld
t;aaF hero pot if 11.. Ductless lieil-not. been allowed a
specifiration of, particulars, that in consequence of this
cross-examinstion,
_the witnesses were all three discre-
11'ted. and votir Lordships teed pleased to throw out the
WS. .11y Lonli, fdo not notleirrite and remarks upon
W)e erideire hi•dris ease, for to do so tit the present
Arlie of the ptocertliags, I should consider irregnlir,'
ihjsud, indecent. if any one had set me such an esam-
p:e,.l 'Mold conceive it to bean ciatspfe moretionottred
the-breach than in • the observante. Of course no
Ridge could bare set the example, no person who may
:ylltiobab(y be called upon hereafter to deride won his
.-niloit on thn, guilt or innocence of the 'teeniest rook!
'hie set. Ad monstrous an *simple of indecorum; bpi If
Ire had, I.should have abstainN froM i following t from
tottatireit a iononnu decency. I mention thli cirenni-
;tither forties rtlit of shelving bow iinpoitant.ln the
case of the Duchess of Norfolk., was pier Lordship'
iiiihereore to the rule you then laid-7dorrinnvltieli on
Spliinky last you appeared. hi, have repeatee..ie, -the
ifirit !Iteogh not ip the letter,. and whsah .1- fm-stotr
emilhal, Upon - to:.sliew that your. Lotcrab-Ift *might
Ilk lo kbahllon. My Lords, the MIA of: Whir I
have 'to !Windt w your Lordship, b Writ ysiti Arc flhw
reem4log the extraordluarr•stdvnotatei-itiikil.mopeo.
meet in the 'easel of these proceedings,- andlibit • tit I
"2 .now !Wise "Wad in this. camp- eitßatilni: it is any
imilify reeesligfi, though. wither. • bo/o.plaged is
lac y artist sl nation 'iron; idfortlinary cassoosith
Ai* illo Die' adrintege of not Wilk' pieparefloy our
afeiftlthi MI Lords, hiol 'a -mite inpaitfti If 1.7-
a meadroot and egloeg aides *-tms.AblidellPfllr bi
..i a the „weeder-4 . van, of
tO . the trostezamination imutediate4 fol-
lope cif enOtiVt.atiost. without rensisitherlitg ti ut
tilt 1.!
=Of*
ii Oh foLgatbatwt thfue ecitinuir;s:totletitti
sat,.
oeis „set:
Arp °Vie 114 now* the 'specific- Week 10-iihish the
• which he is ehargals:adiged radiate boas
. Such le tbs. Way in. winch. the. itulKref
.srdld , by your Llordohips:—inloit ir Saviors!
' ..
arriouredshirtnittelleiriplailrarteZribik frig
or Lordikipli 'Of 4tHroviit ''
lugs the rules of thicesiasea lardE
. .. •
y . 1 ask for dotbitrg emeellii
nntbisg better; but do Not. a Lords, adhere:Wl:ow
rules only whim they Main the 'Queen, and absolve your-'
atilves front them -whesseirer they opiratele.her ohms.
earl. lam tad, however, that we do enjoy no mitre-
ordlhast advantage not conceded hr. ortilemy eases,
easuely, that when the *hole of the case is gene through,
we shall have two mouths allowed us to-prepare for our
&dame. I" wish I could take comfort Item this sup.'
- • advantage: To, ml• itdappoles to
seed. 4n -its: trlsliwyjoro-
- —.1'46400N. widuallt say
, auseiillgtMh,gtgeohe
dela see,
alllo.ollllklll 44; • . kcal
prejudice the Naiads the J

I 5
1
1

posed extraordinary advastag
I
,
have triits as qppselle semi
, 1 ceodisebialiteithasslsiiklal
1 mess exasdastioe at a t la
i eseadisstisa. do all the detail
. 1 sorb as it Noy be. dro Awe.*
bt exambeseimi, toprejudice