The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-05-08 00:00:00

Tilt STATESMAN.

',: =.

iqueStiort ought to be decided, it should be formalir
tried in a Court of Law. He maintained t tat. pui,
chaser of the life interest of either of Teuer.
ships for a valuable consideration could not :a. ousted
in any Court of Judicature a'fter the .Net of 17gt,ie
whiuh the vested interest of the holder was acknoe.
•ledged by Parliament.
Mr. VANSETTART explained.
Mr. CREEVEY declared his intention of not di.
yid; lig the House on his original resoitationi, but or,
the amendment of his Hon. Friend.
Mr. BRAND moved his amendment, which uR;,
" That a Committee be appointed to enquire into the prerp
dents which exist, as to the deduction from, or fit,pprki4;o/1
any fees payable to the Tellers of the Exchequer tor Lou°,
seed out of the tame."
After a remark from the CHANCELLOR of .
EXCHEQUER, the House divided upon
Brand's AMendment.
For the Amendment
Again.t it

, • - -
even
was a niessure only to be resorted to foe the _
.11 of Tattles holding offices which might he evert
of a State, and iu nowise to he touched during the harritably secured to them, and of which not even the
times of internal peace. IVlienever public property most wiirtute.perqvisite could he touched without the
placed itself in opposition to individual property, , consent of the parties. This he' should be sorry to
then an end approached to all property whatever. dispute with hie Right Hon. and Learned Friend,—
' That those emoluments of office arnse from the bur- Ile should admit that the Crown had the power to
dens of the 14opte he was not prepared to deny ; appoint a Teller of the Exchequer, and to give him
but nothing could justify the Legislature if they in- certain fees of office; he should admit, too, that the
termeddled with the grantee Pi the disposal of the Exchequer existed before the Norman Conquest.-
-Offices, or with the amount of the money derived The power to grant or to withhold money, however,
from them. The people might hideed feel htiri that had been assefted long since by tinat House; and that
those large emoluments should accrue almost for the being the case, was the Crown to tell them, that be-
performance of no (oa' ; hut Parliament wisely ab. sides the necessary supplies, they must raise another
stained from ever interfering with them, and by so certain sum to an Officer, whom the Crown had cre-_'
doing they sanctioned the propriety of the office, and ated, foe the purposes of emolumeut ? It was also in
evinced a determination not to derange the ancient the power of Parliament to say, whether, besides
system of private property. For these reasons it ap- . the sum for the public exigencies, they would also
peered to him, that however large the emoluments of ' raise a farther sum to be paid to any such Officer ?
these offices might be, and however iiiconvenient they Ile was confident, if the Rouse want into the Com-
might appear in the contemplation of the people, rnittee, it would be seen that they had on former oc-
still it was safer, wiser, and more economical to casions regulated thbse offices both with and without
permit,them to remain unmolested than consent to in- the concurrence of the Tellers themselves. As to Majority
19
troduce a principle of which no man could perceive the fund for the liquidation of the national debt, and ' The original Resolution of Mr. CRELVEY
_
the limits. It was very possible that what lie-had . the other enormous sum raised for war taxes, how afterwards negatived without a division.
said was not language of a very popular nature, and ' could it be contended that ought to be paid, as ; PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
calculated to please the frugal part of mankind.; yeti a matter of light, to any *lacer through whose hands When strangers were again admitted, we found of
he ',meld say, that no apprehensipns of unpopularity ! they chanced to pass. If, when Mr. Pitt first thought his legs
should over prevent hint from boldly avowing those of raising the tan! for carrying on the war within • The Marquis of TAVISTOCK, who had risen i
sentiments which, lie believed, would be ultimately the year, any person had thought of proposing that purstfance of notice, to move for leave to bring in:
beneficial to the people. s the sum so raised should be exempted from the pay- Bill which would have the effect of amending the
Mr. BRAND believed that the sentiments to , meat of these`Exclvequee fees, he was convinced no state of the Representation of the People in Perlis,
which he had just been listening, were Nes/tents_ owe 'wad have obis*. to it. And, if the principle veld. His Lordship was makiog some remarks up.
neous productions of the Hon. Gentleman's heart, could be interfered with at all, so far from befog i .on the augmented Influence of tie Crown, deviating
aid he believed that no hopes of popularity would Principle which was inviolable, he submitted it must that by means of it the Sovereign was enabled to re-.
ever be able to sefer're that Hon. Gentleman from the be held to be no principle at' all. _lt was for'the tale in his service Ministers whose conduct had hie
performance of what he deemed his du y • but, how- House, then, to say what was to be done : and , approbation though their measures were universally
ever highly he esteemed the motives of his conliact, though he (Mr. Whitbread) was prepared to go the condemned by the people, who loudly called for
still, for his own part, he felt strongly inclined to: whole length of the Resolutions, yet if the Amend- ! their exclusion from power.—[Hear, hear !]--it
differ from him, and to favour the motion. He per- , meet was preferred, he had no objection to agree would not be denied, he apprehended, that the votes
fectly agreed with the legality of the grant and with to it. He was convinced there was not a subject in of Parliament were sometimes in direct oppositionts
the right of possession in the places, and possessed the realm who would not lament if those Officers the sentiments of the nation at large; and he la.
the same regard as had already been manifested to- were above the controul of the House. Let the ser- sieved that it would be equally readily admitted that
wards private property. But if instances appeared vices of the late Earl Camden, or of Mr. George some reform was necessary. He did not mean to
on the Journals of the House, that Parliament had Grenville, be as meritorious as they could be ima- i say, thatit wouldbe proper, in the first instance, to
caused certain issues to be liable to a lesser proper-
gined, he could not help being persuaded that they adopt one generator violent measure to attempt mtion of fees than what were customary, he should,l would be amply rewarded, even by the amount of immediate Reform • on the contrary, he thought the
from that precedent of limitation, be inclined to . emolument drawn by the late first Lord of the Ad. only wise and prudent mode would be to proceed,
think that the fees of those offices ought to be lessened ! miralty (Mr. Yorke), as Teller of Exchequer. He step by step, until at length the object so much de.
as much as might appear reasonable and judicious.— , thought there could be_no doubt, that Parliament, if sired was attained, a full, fair, and adequate Re.
The present unhappy circumstances under which the it chose, might order that the sums to be raised in presentation of the People in Parliament. —Tear,
kingdom laboured, were incitements strong enougle taxes for the present year should pass, through the hear!]—The accomplishment of the design would
to sanction a retrenchment of the fees of office, espe- Exchequer, without paying any fees whatever. be much more probable, if the House advanced with
cially where they appeared to rise to a higher 1 Mr. HORNER was desirous of stating his reasons caution, than if it at once resolved to overthrow exist.
amount than ever could have been contemplated at for the opinion he entertained on this subject.— .ing and long established rights. The purpose he had
the creation of the offices. Anxious, therefore, that Nothing, he conceived, could be so clear as this, that •in vietv by the Bill he should afterwards submit to
the first resolution should be carried, he e pro- in all regulations for economical purposes, vested the House, was to limit to a certain extent the ex.
pose, as an Amendment upon the second, " That rights must be sacredly protected. If there was even pences of County Elections. [hear, hear!] In the
a Committee be appointed to examine the Journals a solitary precedent, as had been alleged, in the yea; first place he should' endeavour to prevent the great
Of the douse, for the purpose of ascertaining howl 1740, in which a contrary line of proceeding had inconvenience to which freeholders were subject in
far any limitation had taken place by direction of prevailed, still he.should have helcrthat to be a bad travelling to the town where the election was to take
Parliament." 1 precedent, and one which ought not to lie followed. I place, and in the next place to put an end to the cot.

Lord A. HAMILTON was far from disputing the
principles laid down by two Right Honourable
Gentlemen (the Chancellor of the Exchequer and
Mr. Ponsonby), as to the propriety of affording
every sanction and support of private property.—
Even the doctrine laid down by his Right Hon.
Friend (Ponsonby), the offices were to b, ccit,ll-lered
as in the nature of estates, he did not feel i.:Mself
called on to dispute. That the offices in question,
however, were to be put on a footing with offices in
the• Church, he was not so thoroughly convinced.—
In the Church there were great and important duties
to perform. The Church had grown with our
growth, and strengthened with our strength; where-
as the offices in question. had only grown and in-
creased with the burdens and distressef of the country,
by which they were fed and nourished, and through
which alone they now produced such (marmot's emo-
luments, as to have suggested to his lion. Friend the

No man could deny the right of the House to regu-
late, reform, and even abolish offices ; but still that
must be done subject to regulations. Ile was pre-
parod to go as far in regulations which had economy
for their object as any man ; but in dbiug so, the
rights of those having vested interests in such offices
were to be kept sacred. The property of the State was
not to be protected at the expe.,ce of itritate proper.
ty. All property was the creature of the law, and,
equally depended on it for protection. If this prin-
ciple were once broken through by the House, temp-
tation would grow upon them, and there would be
no end to it.
Mr. BANKER fully agreed in the propriety of
preserving inviolate the private rights of parties.--
Let not the House, however, in an over consideration
for private interests, forget that they had also the
public interest to look after. He was of opinion that
the emoluments of the offices in question had increas-

rupt practice of giving money to voters under the
pretence of defraying the charges they had incurred
In coming to poll. He should suggest that the sle,.
tors should be allowed to give in their votes in the
hundred in which they resided, and that one day be
uppointed for renewing suffrages in oath hundred.—
lie should add to this the establishment of a Special
County Court for the nomination of candidates.—
His Lordship then moved for leave to bring in a
Hill " for regularting the election of Knights of the
•Shire to serve in Parliament."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that he did not rise to oppose in its first stage, a
measure which had in view so desirable an object as
the limitation of the eipences. of County Elections.
He wished it, however, to be distinctly understood,
that he was giving no pledge of approbation to any
of the provisions the Noble Lord might deem it ex-
pedient to introduce. He begged also explicitly to

. „
propriety of the present motion. According to the ed infinitely bey was reasonable. He thought
beyond what
t
doctrines laid down by his Right lion. Friend, `chat- Eif the House, as the guardians of the Public Purse,
ever might at any time be the amount of the emolu- ; saw a mode of paying out the public money equally
ments of these offices, the House could rot interfere to Lsecure with that now resorted to, of paying it in the
regulate or restrain them. 14 by the lapse of time, ! first place into the Exchequer, there could be no
supposing Lord Camden to live thirty or forty years , doubt that they might do so. The emoluments of
longer, and supposing the amount of the offices to those offices, as already said, were excessive, and if
increase in the same proportion as they had hitherto i the House chose to apples cure, he thought they had
done, still it would be equally incompetent for the ! the power of doing so without giving to any human
House to interfere then as now. If the Iloese could ; being a right to complain. He did not wish this,
not now interfere, the amount to which the fees of ; however, to be done by compulsion, but by an agree-
office might increase; ' however exorbitant, could ! ment between the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for
make no difference. If instead of thirty thousand the public, on the one hand, and these Tellers of the
pounds a year which these Tellerships now produced, techeqoer on the other.
they should mount up to 130,0001. still, on-the I Mr. BATHURST rose amidst loud cries of Ques:
principles on which his Right Hon. Friend argued i don! He admitted that the fees received by the Tel-
the question, the House had no right to interfere ! ! lers of'the Exchequer were now much larger than at
This was a doctrine to which as a guardian of the ' the time of the creation of the offices, but this could
Public Purse, he could not suffer himself to agree. ' not be urged as any Sufficient reason for invading
Wheri the two Noble Lords alluded to were ap- private property. As well might it be said that the
pointed to those offices, they yielded about seven ' Chancellor should be deprived of the large emolu-
thousand pounds a year each,.aud now they produced, ' ments arising from bankruptcies, because in modern
to each of the Noble Lords, about 30,0001. a-year. times they had been so greatly augmented. If the
No, no ! only about 23,0001. or 2.5,0001. from the attempt were to frighteji the Noble Lords into a ces-
inisterial Beeches.] His Lordship rejoiced to sion, some ground at least ought to be stated on which
~
ar the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite ob- the threat was to be founded; above all, he censured
eject to this, because, if they admitted that the any attack by a side wind.
amount had any thing to do with the question, then , Mr. WILBERFORCE wished that before the 1
they admitted the force of his argument, and con- House came to any decision; that all the facts con-
ceded
that if the emolument did exceed what was res. nected with the two Tellerships of the Exchequer !
sonable •, if, for instance, they should amount to should be brought before it. He was desirous of
60,0001. a year, then it would be fit for the House knowing whether these offices were in reality to be
to interfere. For his own part, he would never deemed private property, or whether they were held
consent to give his vote that the House Could pot under any qualification or condition ?
interfere to the effect of regulating the amount' of Mr. TIERNUY felt it necessary to state distinct-
the
emoluments arising to any public officer. The ly his *Onion upon this question, that he might S us- i
only question, he conceived, was, whether the tale his share of the unpopularity which would at-
House could or cotlld not interfere.? and if called to tech to a complete concurrence with his Right Hon.
give his vote on this subject, he 'rust give it in, be- Friend (Mr. Ponsonby). He objected to the time
half of the public.. ' when this subject was introduced, because the House'
Mr. LYTTIRTON said, he should vote fpr had now before it a Sinecure Bill, which would, in !
the amendment of Isis Houourable Friend .(Mr. all probability, be passed here, but thrown out else-
Brand). ' where, and he was unwilling that any additional ar-
Mr. IL xipaiOrtoN anti: Mr. VA NSITTARIr gamma should be afforded
for such a vote, because.
both said a few words on the subject of the Sinking it would be contended, and with great fairness, that
1 Fund for Payment of the National Debt, whether the Commons hiving passed a Bill conditiostally
':Exchequer Fees were exigible on theamount of It • against Sinecures, emboldened by their success,
but their observations were not distinctly understood were now proceeding a step farther, and were even
in the gallery. attempting- to invade and destroy a vested interest,
Mr. wurßßtie
shortly
was sorry to do, entirely from his Right Hon'ourable cognized
sentiments on the present question, differing, se he Anus mast be conteroplatedoince they were so re.
insisted was the situation in which these
Friend near him m
(.--.1.• Ponsoub )-. I. .the ' • h could not concur is the motion was, that the
y , no. on prin. why- e
by.tbe laws of England! Another reason
,
them. His Right Hoe. ?demi talked .
eiPios laid Gownbtc him, but in the application of. Noble Pereonage; now oo,capying those places, were
of - • . the legal far advanced iu life • rkeepopplee4eci thqt if the

declare, that in not opposing the introduction of
this Bill, he was not admitting that either that or
any other measure was necessary to diminish what
was termed the overgrown infldence of the Crown,
by means of which the Noble Lord had asserted
that the Sovereign had it in his power to continue
any Administration, however impotent or obnoxious
to the country. He (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) was convinced that the assertion was not well
founded ; in the present state of the Constitution it
was not in the power of the Crown to retain in its
service any Administration that, in the judgment of
the people, was unworthy of, or inadequate to the
situations they occupied.—[Hear, hear !]—The So-
vereign, however, had authority sufficient to con-
tinue his confidence to those individuals who, Ani-
-1 Ws for the well-being of the Empire, had conducted
its affairs with as able a judgment, and as firm a
hand, as any of their rivals.—[Loud cheer:l-1f
the Noble Lord, or any other Member, should think
it prudent to throw out any challenge upon this
grouud, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should
I be always beady to meet and to maim it, for he coo-
celved tieViereark to have been made by the Noble
Mover with reference to the present Administration.
--.{/tear, hear!' If the contrast were pissed upon
'trim, he would venture to assert, that the other side
of the House could not adduce a single instance from
the transactions of the last Administration, which,
either in point of vigour, of wisdom, or of success,
could for a moment be put in comparison with the ex•
ertions and achievements of the present.—[/Isar,
hear ! and laughing.
Mr. BRANI) enquired whether the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would allow that the Bill should be
printed and circulated before he gavehis decied oppo-
sition to it, in case be should feel it right to resist it?
The i;IIA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
replied in the affirmative.—He meant to have ex-
pressed it in the remarks he had made.
Sir T. TURTON obtained leave to bring in tn
Bills for the•porrpose of amending the Bill regulat-
lug the Profits of Publicans, as also that concerning
Tolls.
Mr. BENNETT rose to move that there be laid
before the House a Copy of the Appoiatmentof the
Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, together with a
Return of the Emoluments of that Office for the last
Ten. Years. Ile was in to bring forward this
motion from an understanding that these profits were
very large, amounting in the course of the last year
to 33641. 189.-24.- He had been likewise informed,
thwt they arose, in'sorhe, measure, from the sale of
offices ; And in-everx point of view seemutl to call for
the regulation of the House.