The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-12-16 00:00:00

The MA.You. said his business was to
nal!, who moved the adjournment.
___

BRANCKER said Mr. Aspinall was not present
,out, and would not trouble the council on thi

he had the

The M AYOR observed that as Mr. Platt had already spoken
on the question, it could only be with the permission of the
council that he could make any remarks.
Mr. PLATT was not going to make any remarks ; he oni3
wished the 92d clause of the:Municipal Corporations'Act reac
If the Town-Clerk had not the act, he (Mr. Platt) had.
rowN-CLERK thcn read the section, which enacts
any borough shall be expended fo
ablic benefit of the inhabitants and the improvernento

funds c

No member having risen for a few seconds, the MAYOR
said it would be his duty to put the amendment if no one
rose to address the chair. (A. cry for " Mr. Bushell.")

some other member to commence the adjourned debate, but
as the council seemed to think he ought now to speak on the
important question before them he willingly obeyed the call.
The question at issue appeared to him to resolve itself under
three distinct heads. The first was, whether the council was

prepared to maintain, unimpaired, the present system of
scriptural education as adopted in the corporation schools.
This being, as doubtless it would be, answered in the affirma-
tive, then, in the second place, the inquiry would be, was

it, or wastit not, their duty in the just control of the corpo-
rate funds, in the exercise of their legislative functions as
affecting the religious, moral, and social condition of this

•
vast community, to attempt some minor good for those who
could not, conscientiously, receive all the good which was
placed before them. Then, in the third place, should the
second proposition be deemed impracticable, the inquiry
would be whether the corporation, seeing that its funds could
only be appropriated to one, always admitted to be a large,
portion of the community, ought not, according to the mu-
nicipal act, to cease altogether from being an educational
body. Under these three heads he now desired, as clearly
and as calmly as he could, to state his views on the question.
He would now take the first of these propositions : was the
present system to be maintained ? He thought if the con-
servative party acted with the consistency that they ought,
and with which he was sure they would act—if they desired
to maintain their principles—the present system established

. .
in the corporation schools must be maintained in all the pu-
rity in which they had already established it. (Hear, hear,
and cheers.) What had been the great municipal struggle
which had been going on in this town for the last six years?
(Hear.) Had it been simply a struggle between two parties
—whether one set of men should occupy the seats in that
pouncil, or another set of men should occupy them—whether
one should walk in and the other walk out? Had it been
simply a question whether liberalism should reign or whether
toryism should reign? He thought not. (Hear, hear.) They
(the majority) had been contending for much higher princi-
ples than these, and having gained the victory it became their
duty, as far as possible, to reap the fruits of it. (Hear, hear.)
And, what had they done? When the conservatives came
into power they found in existence in the corporation schools
a system which was not in accordance with their views of a
Christian education ; they pdopted, therefore, the only course
left open to them ; they made those schools that which they
distinctly and properly ought to have been made, schools in
which sound scriptural instruetion was given to all who
were willing to receive it ; they conferred all the bene-
fits which such a system could not fail ultimately to
confer. (Hear, hear.) The Education Committee, in the
document they had issued, which had been called a manifesto,
had used the word "diluted." That was a word which, in
his opinion, might very properly be applied to the proposi-
tion of Mr. George Hall Lawrence; for, to adopt his plan,
would most certainly be to "dilute" the system already
established ; it would be to impair, to injure, and to lessen,
the usefulness of the Scriptural teachings which were now
given in the schools ; and he thought he might venture to
say that he should be able to show this very clearly. It was

proposed to compel, as now, the reading of the Scripturt.
all the Protestant children • it was also proposed, that thos,
children whose parents could not conscientiously consent that
they should receive that instruction, should be permitted not to
receive it—in short, that they should go without it,
the result, and, indeed, the natural consequence of such
system would be this—if you carried it out under the sam,
roof, and upon adjoining forms—a Protestant child would
say, " I am compelled to take these Scriptures, and to read
them ; I am told I must not only understand the truths
which are there written, but I must practice them if I desire
to be saved; whilst upon the neighbouring form there sits a
child whb is not permitted to receive these very Scriptures
which I am told arc essential, to my salvation," (Hear,

hear.) This, to his tilled, presOnted an inconsistency which
would lead, as he had said before, to the utter rootilig out of

that vital principle which they wished to maintain: It was
on this ground, therefore, that be objected to the proposition
of Mr. George Hall Lawrence, and on this ground that he
should vote against the amendment. (Hear, hear.) He now
came to the second proposition, namely, whether, having
now established a system of sound instruction; having pre-
pared sound education for all willing to receive it, without
limit, with the daily and unrestricted use of the unmutilated
word of God ; having fully established those principles for
which they had contended, and to which, as Conservatives,
they were pledged ; having gained the victory, and given all
an opportunity of reaping the fruits of it, the question was--
and it appeared to him a new question which had not been
touched upon before—whether they could not, legally and
conscientiously, without the sacrifice of any principle, give
to those children who either could not or would not, for it
amounted to the same thing, accept all the benefits offered
to them, at least a portion of those benefits. (Hear, hear.)
He had given to this subject much consideration ; he
had devoted to it much time, much thought, and
and if he were wrong in making the
about to make, he would not come
..,, council and beg, as some had done, the council to
JardOn.ldrii : he Would tell them that he had been sent into
•-•;'red` b9th in thought and action, and
Anld tcslc no pardon for dqins,
(Che,

nxiet
Dns he wa

unfett

been so

He asked for
monrable man was not fairly entitled.
Were he to suppress the convictions of his
...._...1d bp equally dishonourable as though he as-
_rted that which he knew to be grossly and wilfully false.
He came, therefore, coolly tend deliberately to the inquiry in
the second proposition, which was this,--whether, having
accomplished all this good, (which he truated they would
continue to maintain so long as the corporation continued

nothing to whi!
(Hear, hear.)
mind, he shoo!

o ••
be••••&an/educational body, •••••• •••••••••••
they could not conscientiously,
t)
without any sacrifice of principle, do something for those
who were, unfortunately, shut out ? His belief was they
could do something, and he believed, further, that they ought
to do it : he was prepared to maintain that they ought, and

ey ough

Roman Catholics were

n schools. (Cries of" No, no,"
e fought side by sidi, which he
saw near him—when, perhaps,

he might say he Vas. in the front of the battle—contending
for those great principles ihicki :s,erp happily now triumph-
ant, he expressed a doubt, which was in print for anybody
who chose to it, refer to, whether the Roman Catholics could
receive these benefits ; he hoped they would, but be doubted

it ; and he then reserved to himself the right of considering,
when the time should come, and it had now come, whether
they could or could not do anything for those who were ex-
cluded. (Hear.) Well, then, were Roman Catholics ex-
cluded ? They were self-excluded, he admitted, but they

Rowed

.cause, i

hich could not be taken by the
Who would say that

virtually, an exult

Catholics V

the Test Lind Cor

advocate of any party ;p

not there to fight the battle
of conservative against liberal, but to deal with these facts as
faithfully as it was in his power to deal with them. (Hear,
hear, hear.) Then it had been argued that they would be
justified in pursuing the rule of the lex talionis ; that, be-
cause their opponents'adopted a system of exclusion, there-
fore they should do the same. Now the present Council of-
fered to all that instruction which their late opponents refused
to give to any. There was, therefore, a difference between
them. But why should they do that which their opponents
had done, unless they wished to meet the same result as had
visited their opponents? (Hear.) Let them look to their
present position, and compare it with what it had been.
What had placed them in their present position of a woful
minority ? Their unbridled exercise of the power which they
possessed had placed them where they now were. (Hear.)
Should the Conservatives then follow in their steps? No, he
replied, let them not; he trusted they would never legislate
upon such a ground, as that, but upon higher grounds if they
were to legislate at all. It might be said that he was exer
cising fals' ---,nathy with regard to those
shut out

—.O who were no'
He was willing to submit to the charge. Mile
rather would he bear the charge of false sympathy than 1
would bear with that of want of charity and injustice. (Elea,• •

hear.) Having then, done all they could for religious i
struction ; having, as it were, fed the hungry and clothed t

naked, should they not do something for those whose nece
sities were yet unappeased? What was their position? Tht
were there, in that Council, as corporators,—public prosec
tors. What would be said to a criminal, a youth, broug
before a jury, if he pleaded ignorance of the law in ex tenuatil
of his crime? Would that be a ground for mitigation of p
nishment ? He was sure not ; the criminal would be told

must know the law and respect it. But suppose lie,
should rejoin " I have been born in Liverpool and bred
there, but there was no attempt made to give me educa-'
tion, so that I should know the law." He (114r.,,BuShell)
should, as 'a prosecutor, if this statement were made, feel
himself in a dilemma that would be anything but satis-
factory to his mind. They might, be told by an excellent
friend of his, WhoSe head was full of statistics, that where
there was a limited instruction given there was more crime
existing than there was in a state of utter ignorance. But
what did that argument amount to? Why, to nothing
unless to this—unlss you can give to the lower classes such
an amount of instruction as Would unfit them for the station
in which it has pleased God to place them, it would be better
to give them none at all. Further, they had no religious test
in their Infirmary, nor in their Dispensaries ; they had no
test in their other various charities. People were admitted
there by reason of their poverty or their misery ; no religious
test was exacted from them before they were received ; on
the contrary, the part of the good Samaritan was acted, the
doors were thrown open, and no questions asked. The poor
went there when they required such aid, and the same atten-
tion was paid to all. They scarcely required a test in the
Workhouse, which was an extraordinary fact ; or if they did,
it was of so questionable a nature, that it scarcely amounted
to a test at all. True, the Bible and the Testament were
read by all in the Workhouse school ; but be had that very
morning been informed by the master, that he never; under

any circumstances, ventured to enter into discussion with
regard to the truths of the Bible. But they went further
there, for they acknowledged Roman Catholic teaching to be
religious teaching by admitting Roman Catholic priests into
the Workhouse ; the children were then separated into
arother room, and the Roman Catholic priest gave instruc-
tion after his own manner, to the children of his own per-
suasion, regularly two days in the week. This was an ad-
mission, at all events, that they did not deny that Roman

Catholic teaching was Scriptural teaching. This was a very
important fact. The council could not say there was no
analogy, because they were not legislating for the Work-
house ; the fact was, they were legislating for the same
community, and therefore there should be no preference in
their systeni. (Hear, hear.) Now, he had a plan to pro-
pose, or rather, not a plan to propose, but a sugges-
tion to throw out. lie had considered this suggestion
in all its bearings, with a desire, if possible, to meet the ob-
jections under which the present system laboured ; with a
desire to maintain the present system in the schools, to make

it efficient by getting 'rid of the opposition with which they
were daily and weekly beset: By getting rid of those diffi-

culties he hoped to cause the withdrawal of all opposition ;
and he had no hesitation in saying that this might be done
without any sacrifice of principle. He might be told that he
was temporizing, and that we must not do evil in order that
good might come; but he denied that he was doing evil, for
if by some it was considered an evil, he considered it to be a
good; if it was considered irreligious, he considered it to be
religious ; and that which they considered to be unjust, he

considered to be just. Was it not, then, possible to form
separate schools for the instruction of those who could not
conscientiously receive the religious instruction offered to
them in the Corporation Schools? He might be told that
the law would not permit this, but he would answer for that ;
he had taken some advice on that part of the question. If
this plan for which he contended, could be carried out—it
they could do that which their opponents desired, without a
sacrifice of principle, without encouraging popery,—he
for one was not there to quarrel about the details. Let
Mr. Blackburn, or anybody else, he cared not who they
were, of what party—religious or political—shew him a
plan that would not deviate from those principles which

he had laid down for himself, and he would throw party to
the winds ; he would co-operate with them heart and hand.
He would then form a separate school, and make the terms
of admission the possession of a certificate from a minister
of religion, that the child received religious instruction at
his hands. Would any man tell him, after what had been
said as to the workhouse, that Roman Catholic teaching was
not religious teaching? Would any man in that Council
get up and say he conscientiously believed no Roman Ca-
tholic could be 'saved ? Let him (Mr. Bushell) hear that
man Where was he.? They might commence the duties of
the school with singing and prayer. They might confine their
ducation to elementary instruction, in which there was no dan-
ger; do not teach philosophy, do not carry away the minds of
children who were to earn their daily bread by the sweat of

their brow, but give

He believed that a child who could read his Bible
was much more likely to come to the principles he advo-
cated than a child who could neither read nor write. Such

spelling

rstanding about

his viewsron this question, he begged that questior

be asked of him thaat he might beset right. He wished to
be perfectly understood that he advocated the system now
_ .

established' in the Corporation Schools, and he would not
consent to its being impaired ; but at the same time he would

advocate the justice and the necessity, the social necessity,
the moral necessity, and the religious necessity of doing for
those who were shut out that which we had an opportunity
of doing—to bring them, if possible, to the exercise of those

practises which religion taught, anu to the Knowlenge or tnose
truths which we were bound to teach. Would he let the
priest attend ? No ; he would not recognise so far the prin-

ciples of the Popish religion as to let nun attenu—
Mr, G. H. LAWRENCE.—DO I understand you to advo-
cate secular instruction in a separate school ?
Mr. BUSHELL.—Yes.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—That is my amendment.
Mr. BUSHELL.—Did you understand my first propo-
sition ?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—Yes.

Mr. BUSHELL said if Mr. G. H. Lawrence properly un-
derstood the first proposition which he had laid down, he
would see that there was an essential difference between
them, which he (Mr. Bushell) could not yield. (Hear, hear.)
Now suppose his second proposition could not be conceded ' •
he came in the next place to his third proposition, which
was this : whether seeing that the corporation funds could
only be appropriated to one portion of the community, they
ought not to cease from being an educational body at all. To
this he most distinctly and emphatically said yes ; he was an
advocate for this third proposition, and why ? Why, simply
because he believed that a greater benefit, a greater religious
benefit would result to the community, and a greater social
benefit too, if the corporation of Liverpool ceased to he
an educating body. First and foremost it might not be
known that the present cost of education in the corpo-
ration schools, to say nothing of the interest upon
the first outlay, was £2 per head per annum. Now he would
ask any member of that council, whether they ought not for
£2 to educate four children per annum instead of one ? This
was the first objection he had to the corporation being an
educating body. Secondly, he was persuaded that the vital
interests of the town had sustained injury from the long con-
tinued agitation of this question ; he was persuaded that
some of the leading men in the town had been shut out from
the council by the fear of this very question—men honour-
able in commercial life, and respected in private life, but who
could not bear with this continual strife ; were not the clergy
of the town the proper parties to be entrusted with the edu-
cation of the people? (Hear.) And if this were admitted,
where were the funds to come from ? Ile had not the slightest
fear that the funds would come, What man who had listened
to the debates in that room, or who had read all that had
itten upon the subject, and who knew anything of

been v
tho

who had so spoken and written, could for a moment
doubt that funds would be forthcoming ? If the desire of
some of those gentlemen—he might say all—were equal to
the professions they had made, they would, if necessary,
contribute the last mite they possessed, in order that the
children of this town should he educated in the religion of
our church. He was not himself a man of much means, but
to show how far he would go in this matter, he begged to
say he would put clOwn his name for £lOO whenever the
schools should be sold, to retain them to the church. Let
others do likewise according to their means, and there
would be no difficulty in educating the poor. (Hear,
hear.) He bad another word to say before sitting down.
lie had been told, that if he, or any one, dared to lift
his voice against the fiat which had gone forth, he must
look to his seat in that council. Now, he (Mr. Bushell)
respected his constituents most highly ; no man re-
spected them more than he did ; and, moreover, he thought
it was the duty of any constituency, if their representative
made a pledge and broke it, to kick him out. There could
be no doubt about that—(hear, hear) ; but could it be con-
ceived for a moment that any intelligent constituency in
Liverpool, would desire to lend their representative to'that
council not for the purpose of deliberation, but bound both
in thought and action ? He would not think so degradingly
of his constituents. His seat was at their disposal any day.
for he occupied it not for his own benefit, but, as far as his
ability went, for their's ; and, therefore, if they desired to
get rid of his services all he could say was, that be was ready
at any moment. But while he sat there, he would not con-
sent to be a mere puppet; nodding and bowing as the strings
were pulled by some dictator from without.—(Hear, hear.)
He was there free and unshackled, and with a desire whilst
he would not sacrifice principle to serve any party, to do
ample justice to all.—(Cheers.)
Mr. NORTH then rose. He said that as a new and
reasonably modest member of the council, he had patiently
listened for many hours to this debate, without any de-
sire to take part in it—not because he was unwilling,
upon occasion, to;combat according to his ability for the faith
which was in him, but because he thought there were there
many abler, as well as older, men, in whose presence their
inexperienced juniors were properly ordered to keep silence
and lay their handsupon their mouths. Itwas true that, as the
proposer in the Education Committee of the report now under
discussion, as " the pious druggist " that was of Mr. Earle's
fancy (hear) lie had been always ready at any time, and under
anit circumstances, to take his full share of the responsibility
of supporting it ; but as the debate proceeded, he confessed he
found his own natnralineliriation to be silent gradually in-
creased, because he found, as they went on, that " with the
aged there was not always wisdom," nor "in length of
days understanding ;" that was, that town councillors, how-
ever experienced, and zealous, and active, were liable to the
failings of thinirr mortals—(hear, and laughter,)—that they
could betray a cause by their own indiscretion much more
effectually than it could be assailed by any -power he could
hope to bring to bear against it. In:short, became to the con-
clusion to use another expressive phrase of the gentleman
whom he had already named, that if he did but give rope
enough to the supporters of the amendment, it might probably
happen that there would be no occasion for him to obtrude
himself at all.' For this debate upon the p'art of the assailants

iways wide of th

real question at issue (hear, hear,) of morbid sympathy con-
jured out of circumstances having no existence except in the
imagination of the speakers, and of the perversion, as it ap-
peared to him, too plain for answer, of a religious principle
to mere party purposes. (Hear.) He did not know whe-
ther, after all, he should not have finally determined to re-