The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-04-16 00:00:00

TifE STATESIIAN.

those appointed in Ireland ; and that the result be
laid before the House, with a It convenient speed;
specifying the several balauces—whetbea- any, and
. which nth be considered as recoverable? what.steps
were taken towards the recovery? and whether any
of these persons still enjoy offices or peniens undstr_
the Crown ?" E
•
The CIIANCF.LLOR of the kCHEQUER
conceived that the powers of the Committee were
alreticli sufficient for those purposes ; if not, he*
no objection to the present motion. It %rev knothbr '
question whether the Committee ought to apply it-
self immediately to this object, so as to supersede all
other business.. As the pension of Mr. Hunt, it
bad been all along withdrawn effectually, though not
fortually till last year.
Mr. BANICES said, that the Committee had the
power, and if he had thought it expedient that the
state of the balance should be known before the end
of the Session, he would, as Chairman of that Corti-
' mittee, have undertaken the labour • as it was, he
was ready to.begin the business immediately, though,
perhaps, it might be better not to erubraee that mass
of subjects to which their attention was now directed.
Mr. LONG agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet,
but did not thjnk that this (night to take precedence
of all other business. As to Mr. Steele,"he said,
that the whole of the .balance, together with every .
shilling of interest, had been paid by that Gentleman
before.he (Mr. Long) came into office.
The SPEAKER being abOut to put the question,.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER
conceived, after ibat hid fallen from Mr. Br ekes,
that it was anta3eissa7,l
Sir I. NewronT tali], his object Wes to4ave the
account laid before tbelliotise before theAest of. the
Session. He had a* dosbeof the intenfloa and Wishes
of thkt Committee, bat he thtiight the present mo-
tion the most effectual irty of furthering his and their
purposes.
After a few words froin Mi. C. Long, the Motfoo
was put, and carried nen.. con. •
-.CORPORAL PUNISHMENTS.
The Hon. Mr. BENNETT began by obServing%

.prod:udcied
.61 otireasitthemostardent desire of returning to the rank, the lion. Gentleman tbi---itenefttolileramtsalultiibiejtec:,,,t.,e.irtlYtoahitiedld
..._/, t. ..:„. •_,
could have been secure from this dreaded evil. mgiovere, dtutterctahsean
Lord Hutchinson, to the Cartimpollot,
erz&r itto. TM Mon. Bart. remembered to have read a speech • if
Chief.T' He had recently ' seen in the publife*Oura 4b,t
of a Mr. 3 res, Attorney-General of Canada, not follow that the granting this mot'
u.. they could
13:7
Minty •atatements of suicide committed, in
Me-tai
'craentitit,tabethatesutsestattey lon the trial of some officers who had sentenced a soh-! once produce an abolition of the punishimoenntm.---_ust al
1 tnight, however,lead to the devising
avoid
ts Loh i s
wdarseaindcfulilnepduntisohmgievnet
without danger. to the Bier of the name of M‘Donahl et receive 200 lashes, could•not be made, if false,
n paid and who after neceivin 170 of was carried some other system
publishers: As to the compliments po often ,_ _ . g them, s to , which would be equally efficacious. After the '
dd and he wad 1 the Hospital after lingering r four days, he state.
.tOthe*Otlidtirs'Alf tfle Misty!, lie believ ,
Mot inclineti. to Ratter au'y man, particularly in olat'tdied. It that speech the Attorney-General for Ca. were sufficient to strike
the soul uith horr3r, h ,
Mouse.. that like the test` of their countrymen, they nada, referring to an aggravated case., where a con- thought it utterly impossible to refuse the info; .1
6arere not deficient in huntauity,but it wa's the frequency :fultatioa had been held, how a person who had con- tion now asked, and attempt toaltrow the v..il of ..
oflltese spectactca,aChwrorend suderirtg that necossi mired agalest his eovereike might be punished.ivith livien on the svhoie of the subject. -The soldier °-
was
Sadly familiarised -them to such scenes, and gradually the most severe and !inuring tortures, -a butcher re- ; entitled to look up to Parliament foe pfotection ; and
extinguish all the livelier sympathies of their. natures "commended that he should be flayed, after which he it was right that the public should know, that Offi.
[Hear, hear ! ]—lie had once mentioned to the House iwould undertake to keep him alive for three days. cers who might sit on Courts-martial. should knot%
the case of a man of 70, who was 64'd-envied fOr This punishment was rejected as too horrible, but the whether the regiment:: in which corporal putii,hmeatt
some trivial offence to be flogged. lie pleaded that Attorney-General observed,that the Court-martial in were most frequent, were or wt re not among the
he had been 50 }Tars in the service, he pleaded too question, had in barbarity surpassed the proposition worst in the service. As the. /:: %.s. stood at present.
the excellence of his 'genetal character, and that it of • the butcher, for they had flayed the poor soldier, there was ne limit to the multher of lashes that mial,t
was not the pain but the shame, and the shame only, , and, kept him in torture for four days! Was it not be ordered ; nature had not given the capacity of en-
that alarmed him. In the Isle of Wight, .no long' melancholy, the Hon. Bart. asked, that the feelings duriug such sentences as might be pronounced : and
time ago, a boy of 16; was sentenced to the same pit. iof the Crown Lawyers of the present day were so was it not proper, therefore, that. they should he
nishment, and he pleaded his youth in mitigatiou.--; different from what was formerly the idea of the brought under the attention of Parliament ? What
But neither the feebleness of age, nor the indiscre- I Attorney-Getteral of Canada; nay, thateven in that I was the mischief feared from granting the returns?—
tion of tender years availed against the sus posed ne....; House, 'there were many men who partook in those i The very refusal of them produced all that discussion
cessity of military example, for example surely was Ise different feelings! Ile recollected to have read which Gentlemen so much deprecated ; but it was
the only object, it could not be said to be improve* ' some time ago in the public papers, an article under I that discussion, let it be recollected, which even, ac.:
ment. To him it appeared astonishing that men hay- . the title " Resolute Insensibility," where it was I cording to their own confession, had produced the
ing the forms and feelings of their species, could hear stated that a young man, in order to obtain his dis- !best effects, by diminishing of late both the number
with indifference and coolness, the recital of such charge from the Militia, pretended to be seized with ! and severity of' corporal punishments. It was a con.
cruelties. The situation of the English soldier was . a total insensibility in all his parts, and so resolutely ± sideration of such importance, and he gave the
at thia momentscandalously unprotected; no Coroner's - persisted in it, that after every torture ingenuity statement on the authority of a writer on midi.
Inquest sat upon his remains, he was confined wheie could devise had been exhausted, and a surgeon was tary subjects (we believe Sir R. Wilson), that
no friend could approach him, to whom he might called in, who, supposing that he bad met with a It was in militia regiments that the greatest se.
relate his tale of woe, from whom he might; ate hurt in the head, recommended that he should be I verity was exercised. This author had asserted, that
ceive the consolation of a svmpathisiug concern. He trepanned, which operation was accordingly per- if they were to proceed its all the regiments of militiaas
had lately heard of the case of a man named 'fork, fottned upon him, it was not until they were scraping ithey did in some of them, the whole 70,000 men would
who being ordered to be flogged, his wife set out front ' his brain, that a low groan at length burst from him. be flogged in the course of six years. [Hear ! hear!]
i
Yorkshire to visit hat, and on her arrival at the lie obtained his discharge, soon rapidly recovered, It was the boast of Fisiglish law, that cruel punish.
quarters of the regiment, she met his body carried j and on the rumour of a press-gang being in the meats were unknown to its code. It knew npthing
by his comrades to the grave, he having died in] neighbourhood, disappzared. And would it after of the rack, the w heel, the knout, and other modes
consequence of the severity of his punishment.-*-; this be maintained, that men were not struck with lof torturing civil offenders. But what punishment
Was the House then to be told that there existed no!! dismay,. at the very idea of being driven into a ser- exceeded the honor of flogging a man to death . s
The
;rounds for instituting any enquiry ? The Rights vice, wherethispunishmentof flogging was part of : most cruel murderer could not suffer such a punish.
. .
_ _

that he could not anticipate any serious objections to
the motion -which he was about to make. Returns
were regularly laid before the House of the number I
of capital punishments inflicted, and he did not per-
ceive that any greater inconvenience or danger were
likely to result from publishing the number of ou- I
nishments in the army. The punishments to which
he now alluded were such as were not generally
known ; they were inflicted in secret, in holes and
corners.—[ll •ar, hear! from the • Ministerial'
Benches.]—He repeated it—in holes and corners ; I
because it would not be possible to inlict so much.;
torture and ignominy in the face of the world with-
out the presence of an army td keep down the indig-
nation
of the people. 'lhe horrors of the middle
passage had led•to the destruction of the slave trade,
and the horrors of the preseht system of military
punishment, he hoped, would soon lead to its aboli-
tion. It was a mode of punishment objectionable, in
the first place, because its indiction wasarbitray ; in
the second, because it varied with the varying powers
and feelings of the sufferer; and in the third, be-
cause.it had been proved to he utterly inefficacious
ai an example. lie concluded, therefore, with mov-
ing, that there be laid before the House a Return of
the number of Punishments inflicted in the Army
and in the Local Militia during the last seven years,
up to Jatuary 1812, specifying the offences, where

tonourable and Learned 6eutlem- an-seemed to think
that it was a kind of indecorous proceeding for the
House of Commons to interfere at all with what
might be said to fall under the exercise of the Royal
prerogative. This was a doctrine about the uncon•
stitutional nature of which it was not necessary to!
say any thing ; but he would ask, whether the
Crown could carry into effect any one of the Articles
of War, or keep alive the army or its discipline,'
without the previous consent and sanction of that
House ? What then was it but a most flimsy pre-1
tenee, a weak and miserable subterfuge, to talk of
the slur or the implied censure which the motion con-
'eyed with respect to those who had entrusted to
them the managenient of the army ? The Right Ho-
Pourable and Learned Gentleman had bestowed
abundant panegyric on the conduct of the Comman-
der in Chief, and supposing it to be perfectly appli-
cable and well merited, it was at the same time alto-
gether beside the present question. The Right Ho-'
nourable Gentleman talked of no case having been
made out, but he would assert, on the contrary,
that there was a profusion of evidence which he him-
self was prepared to produce, in proof of all he had
stated, and all of which concurred to establish one.
conclusion, that the punishment was inhuman,
had been often inhumanly exercised, and was at
once repugnant to the dictates of reason, justice,

the system ? Would it be alleged that they not only
would not wish to see it changed; but, as was al-
leged
on the•other side, that it even formed a bond
of union between the °dicer and soldier? If this was
so, he knew nothing to which lie could compare that
sort of affection on the part of the soldiers; except to
the idea of Juvenal in one of his satires, where it
is said, that the fish is anxious that it may be taken,
in order that it may form part of the Emperor's din-
ner. Was it not known that many of our soldiers I
had been willing even to submit to blindness, caused 1
by their own means, in order to obtain their dis-
charge ; and, if these things were so, it was rather
too much for any Right lion. Gentleman to got up
and tell the House that in this no hardship whatever
existed. He could not at present join in the enco-
mium passed on the ,Commander-in-Chief, being
totally ignorant on the subject. If the • papers
called for were .once before the House,' and war-
ranted that encomium, Ire should feel pleasure in
joining in it : but he could not, without every
information which -could be required being before the:
House, join in covering the foulness of ale cat-o%
nine-tails. As to Petitions for, reforms, or for the
redress of grievances, what were they in comparison
of this measure? If-England was to be flogged, it was
; a species of infamy which no other people, he be-
lieved, had ever been condemned to, or would have

ment by the law of England. In military punish-
ments, however, it sometimes happened that a man
was flogged to the very verge of life, with a surgeon
standing by to feel the pulse of the sufferer, and to pro-
nounce. when nature•could no longer bear any addi-
tional infliction. This was not all, the offender
might be sent to an hospital, there to remain under
an agony of apprehension till his strength was suffi-
ciently recruited to bear the remainder of the punish-
ment. Wbat was there Dice this in the civil inflic-
tions of the country ? Nothing could be farther from
his wish than to excite mischievous feelings in the
-army ; but it was talking like children to suppose,
that speeches made in that House would inflame the
I minds of the soldiers who 'witnessed such scenes.—
On all thes•. grounds, he thought it most important,
that both the number and extent of military punish.
ments should be brought under the attention of the
House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had
no intention of imputing any but honourable and hu-
, mane motives to his. Hon. and Learned Friend, and
other Gentlemen who had preceded him on the same
side of the question ; but he could not help thinking,
that, however pure their intention, the tendency of
-their speeches was of a most mischievous nature.—
With the sentiments whiCh he (Mr. P.) entertained,
and thinkir as he did that corporatpunishments in

. . . . _ . -- Ail
coMmitred, and the number of lashes inflicted rear and humanity. The Right Honourable and Learned; endured. When he saw, attempts thin made to baffle I the army, though an evil, were a necessary evil, he
spedtively• Gentleman, however, treated all this with le- i all enquiry into the actual state of things, and to ' should feel that he could hardly do a more cri-
Mr. C. A DAMS said a few words against the mo- , City, and betrayed an indifference of manner, and I throw dust into the eyes of the House, he could not 1 minal act, than by drawing pictures of severity
thin. - Laciness of feeling—Meer, .hear, hear ! from ' sit still and see such despicable chains fastened on the calculated to inflame the minks of soldiers, and
Mr,.MANNERS SUTTON conceived, that if it; the Treasury Bench!] that seemed to him ut- people. The great benefit to be derived from the (disincline them to the service. It appeared to
was the object of the lion. Mover to revive the de- i oily inconsistent with a due seuse or correct compre- ; present motion in his mind was, that k had in view- him from the- whole of the debate, that most
bate on 'the question of corporal punishment, this i hension of the infernal nature of the infliction. lie 1 the total abolition of this punishment, which he trust- i exaggerated statements had been made of the sew-
object might he attained without acceding to the pre-' seemed to treat the subject as a boy might be expect.. ;ed would be speedily effected. Gentlemen on .the ; rity of. military discipline, and that-some extreme
sent motion. ft the returns were desiredinerely for 'ed to treat the whipping of a puppy dog. He him- ; other side wished to be 'esteemed religious ; if they cases, which had very rarely -happened, had been
the poepose or, examining whether there were any ; self looked at it in another light, and in its real co- + believed the Bible to be the word of God, they must most unfairly represented as specimens of what was
I cases of abuse,. he thought it hardly a fair proceed- lours. He saw it unite a degree of torture, with a agree that this was a punishment forbidden by it. It daily practised in the army. No doubt cases of m-
ing; and that the only ground which could induce still greater degree of ignominy and shame, which it I was a punishment against the policy of the Military cessite' punishment had existed; but if the matter
the House to consent to the motion was the previous i was scarcely possible to imagine that human beinfis Law itself. it was known its the Military Code of was enqiired into, it would be found, that no such
production of such cases. It certainly would not be ' could have devised, except from the motive of inn-. no other country ; and what, he asked, was there practices were now tolerated in the army.. It would
difficult to p?ocure the returns, because under the 1 tating the supposed torments of the damned. Was it in the nature of the Englisli,that it should be palatable ; have been well, therefore, had his Hon. and Learned
excellent system of management introduced and , remembered that the instrument of torture was the ito them alone ? Was it to he endured that the image ' Friend, before he drew such a picture of the repe-
adopted by-the Commander in Chief the most minute 1 cat of nine tails, that when the wretched victim was 'of God in man should thus be'disgrneed ? tition of the punishment of flogging for the same of-
records•grere preserved. But was this any reason ; fixed to the" halberts in order to have the flesh torn !t • Mr. LOCK HART said, it was exactly because he 1 fence, enquired, whether such a practice now existed.
why a slur should be thrown upon him by auy wish' from his bones, each separate lash inflicted nine : thought the present motion had in. view the total ; The question of its legality had beensubtnitted to his
expressed on, the part of the House of examining into stripes, every one of which was capable of drawing . abolition of the corporal punishment of the Military ! Right Hon. Friend, the present J udge,Advocate, and
all these details? As to the effects of the punishment on . blood from the body! But, in hiS opinion, horrible , Code; that he opposed it. The Honourable Bart. Ihe had pronounced it not lawful. Why, then, was
the discipline of thearmy, what better answer could be as the punishment wasin point of the bodily torture could not be ignorant that this was a punishment cum- ; such a representation made, when ne grounds for it
given than to appeal to the character of that army, i which it created, its effects upon the moral feelings pletely recognized by one of the most high-minded ! any longer existed? Was it nothing, that such repro-
and the mutual attachment that prevailed between the ' of shame and honourable pride, . were • still more , and most gallant nations of antient times—the Ro- ° sentations were made by those who said that the pa-
Officer and the soldier. His great objection to the grievous-and deplorable. It was the disgrace which mans. As to the Military Code of France, it was nishment of the lash was an unuecessaty
severity,
revival of this discussion was,- that it tended to un- I never could he obliterated, that in his mind formed acknowledged to be the most precarious (hat could ; and that those regiments were the beg in the servicesettle the military mind, to lead the army to believe ; the most important-part, of the evil. And for what . welt be conceived. It would, he confessed, be well, ! where it wan not inflicted at all. The Ron. Bart.
that there must be grievances-, though to them am-1 offences was this torment, was this irrecoverable de- if instead of motions of this kind, the Military ' had mentioned the case of a militiaman who had
known, which caused the subject to be so often agi- i gradation frequently inflicted? lie had heard of one Code.of this country were revised. As it now ex-' pins thrust airier his nails: but -the same newspaper
tated. He could not see how the abstract question ! case, in which a man was sentenced to be flogged for isted, it was perhaps too loose, and founded • too ! statement which contained this acconese'ad‘lad, that
could be elucidated'or assisteilly the production of i-having married. Thus arbitrary was the power -04 much on the custpm.oe..wer... As.to Um Fetglish-be- i it-was net by way of punishment, but because he had
these returns; and as he believed that uo practical these military tribunals, thin capricious'wes its eter• big a flogged nation, as the Honourable Baronet ex- I. shammed dead to avoid punishment—that, he had
advantage could featt from them, while its natural else. But the Right Ben. and Learned Gentleman ' Pressed it, that was a mistake. Punishment was not ; lain in this state of insensibility for days together,
effect must he- to impute remissness to the Common-; informs us, that no abuses have taken place. Why made for the English nation, but for the guilty, or; and had even been scalped to see whether his senses
der in Chief, whose indefatigable aaentipn to the; then refuse the returns, if it be only to establish a those who deserve it. ignominy depended on pub- I could be westored. The close of all was, that he af
welfare, interests, and even comfort, of the soldier, ; fact so pleasing to the country and to the army, and lie opinion—it was not punishment but crime *Web ! teiwards got up and ran away, and had never been
were denied by none, he felt himself compelled to so truly honourable to those on-whom the Right Hon. ;inferred ignominy.. I more heard of since, This story, which was said to
- withheld his assent from the motion. . . 'Gentleman had bestowed his eulegium. His belief, ! Mr. C. W. WYNNE begged it to he understood, I bare happened at Taunton, had..afterwards been ca-
Mr. ABERGROMBtR; so far fronethinking the -however, wase•that there had been great abase, that i that in voting for the :present motion, he dill. not ; quired into, and was found to have no foundation in
returns unnecessery 'or obieetionahlee thought they. there were still great abuses, and thatreat abuses ; mean to Pii'dge himself to.support the total abolition fact. Now it was rather siugular that the lion. Bea-
1.
ought to be laid annually before the Muse, .as no- would continue, go long as such a system of punish- ,of corporal punishment. IHe thought that the pro- ronet, who was in the habit of Profeaing very little
thing would he more likely to give a-new tone 4 ,anent was endured. It "was a system unworthy of ' duction of the Paper. now moved for might have the- respect for newspaper authority, should have take'
feeling to Offlcersin general as the consciousness 1 the English nation, and of the English sold/or, and effect of greatlyalimitsishipg such punishments. it from a newspaper, and gravely brought it forward
that the legislature would review their proceedings, ' a system which he believed-would not be allowed to ; Mr. W
• •I It would have
.111 e.
.W, SMITH supporsed the Motion ; and con- I prevail in an country. The Right llonoura- : the Honourable Baronet .(Burdett) was Itighly ho- tised in the army.—[Hcar, hear .1— .
ILBERFORCE thought the Conduct of as a fact, and a proof of the system of torture pia-
tended, quit itimptied no censure on the commander ble and Learned Gentleman had admitted, that the. pourable to 'his feeliugi. It was math unaffected ; he: easy to obtain information ou this wornt, bu,ll.
in Chief. . , . production of the return could do no harm, would - awe, however, that he approached to any thing like I this might not have suited the Honourable Baronet s
• Mr. MANNERS .SUTTISN ,explaieed. be productive of no inconvenience, and his only ob. I a change in so-delicatt a business, particularly Nn the ! object. The story had falsehood ou the very
I
• face of
,-it : and those whose business it was
' Sir F. BefIaDETT declared, that,when he heard .jection was . the very.courtly and unparliamentary ' t. HTIP or wee.' -
the Hight Honourable and Leareed•Geu tleituut att. proem*, that it might not be agreeable to the feel- I 1 Sir S. ROMiLLY said, that the question was not 'enquire; had ' found it so. A ease of reported
Deduce his intention to oppose the Motion, hi bad ittgs of those who happened to the high hi rank and, now—had
expected. to hear rather more cogent reasons for his so office; As to the opinion that:this mode of military' fished or not, but t whetheri
the information which • bably that to which the lion. Baronet alluded,
iwhether cor loral nthishments should be abo. suicide from the fear of corporal punishment,—pros
doing. Ile had talked indeed of the necessity of pro. punishment had no injurious effects on the recruiting ' was demanded sliouffl be granted or not.,
clueing some grave case as a foundation for this Mo- service, he would ask Gentlemen to knock at their to him that no danker. could tWise_from agreeing to it appeared was now the subject of prosecution, be
It appeared' also been enquired into, and the newspaper in which
tion, but he seemed to forget that many such cases own hearts, and imaglij'e themseires iu the situation' the motion equal to the danger that there was its re- cause there Has no trace of any such thing having
s
had been akeady:brought before the consideration of of spectators of this dreadfal spectacle, and then to ' sisting it. Would it not he said, that those who re- happened. But was the House of Commons to
.it.
the House. Ile had himself on a former occasion say, would this, or would it not, damp their inch- fused this account were afraid of producing it, well there, and whenever a newspaper story was brought
stated the instance of several men who had died at nations to enter upon a mime or life in which they knowing that felt was laid before the public, it would forward, to be called upon for returns of military
_05,..,
Gibraltar in consequence of flogging, and that seve- would be exposed to the liability of suffering the 01 them wtth astpuishment told horror ?if the ac. punishments, which, it was said, were only refused
ii.d.
sal Officers who had refused tojoin in that barbarous same indiction. He knew welt, for he had been fre. count would show a diminution pf pupishrneut, why because they would disclose scenes which could not
proceeding, had been dismissed the serikte, although questa), applied to, without, however, possessing the Should therms the risk of those misrepresentatians be witnessed without horror ? He should oPP° e
on their return to this country they were afterwards mato of agordiag relief, b; persons who lad de. or exaggesweed rts which their refusing the infer- the motion, *because it would be productive
_of t.h.e
.
reinstated on. the represoatations of a- -diStietienished-Strtatlntegely from the terror of this punishment, are motion Would **totally produce ? The silence of Most unfair ceneequenees to the'charsct:r of the tili
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