The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-04-19 00:00:00

THE

-------
the es parte statement they had heard. As to %That
the Lord President had said upon the occasion, all
that he slid was in writing, and therefore could be re-
ferred to for correctness.
Mr. BENNET said, that Captain Drown had been
acquitted by the Lord President upon his owu con-
fession of his guilt, and in defiance of the opinion csf
the whole of the "Wire and of the town. In short,
it was part of the old regular Scotch system, via
supporting an abuse whenevm• it came to light.
The following grants were then voted :
20735
Widow's Pensions on the Irish Establishment .5..
T 19,800
o defray the charge of the Half-pay of the 0-
e...rs of the (meal Miliiia ...................
To defray the charges of Corps to be disbanded
123,1:11
Enrland, in 1821 ............................
To defray the charges of Corps to he disbanded in
27, IS3
Ireland, in 1911
%c4e of Credit oil account of the Ordnance Service
for 1821 150,000
Tire House then resumed, and the Chairman re-
ported progress, and the report was ordered to be re-
f-rived to-morrow.
It was then ordered, on the motion of the CHAN-
CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, that the House
should again resolve itself into the Committee on
Monday se'nnight.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
On the motion of Mr. LAMBTON, the Order of
the Day *as read for resuming the debate on the state
of the Representation of the people.
Mr. WYVILI. expressed his earnest hope that the
House would accede to the motion of the Honourable
Member. In the present distressed state of the
country, when the amount of taxes was three times
as 'great as it was 30 years ago, Reform. was loudly
milled for by the voice of the people, and that voice it
would be neither wise nor expedient to disregard.—
Ile concluded by supporting the motion.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW thought the measure of the
Honourable Gentleman opposite was highly objection-
abla in its principle, since it went to disfranchise a
great number of individuals, who were not even ac-
eased of any crime. Much had been said in the
course of this debate of a paper, which teas e*.reulated
ca the year 1792, in which it was stated, that a cer-
tain number of Peers and Commoners not .. .. ated a
toajority of the Members of that House ; that paper
was, hows•ver, a mere fissile of mistakes. The names
of Peers had been put down in that list as returning
Members to that House, merely because they exercimal
the legitimate influence of their high lineage and
s:istitiguished characters. it was absurd to say, fir
instance, that the Duke of Devonshire returned the
Member for Derby, because a member of the illus-
trious House of Cavendish was elected the Represen-
tative of that county. Ile trusted, that great pro-
perty, high character, and amiable manners %%amid
always maintain their natural influent e in that llsouse.
lie did not wish to trespass upon the time, 1;114 n so
awsn- Honourable Members were anxious to ashitess
the house on this question, but he crashd not sit down
without entering his solemn protest against a measure
citich went to deprive any man of his franchise upon
mere speculative ground!.
blr. SYKES said, he rose to offer a few observations
to the House on this question, rather from a feeling of
the duty which be owed to his constituents, than feint*
the hope of throwing any new light upon a subject
which had been so often and so ably discnssed. Ile
',lncurred entirely in the motion of his Honourable
Friend. lie considered this a practical question, and
one in which they had fixed principles to direct them.
• lie could not refer to higher authority on this subject
Ban the opinion of the late Mr. listrkr. lie said that
tl.e House of Commons ought to be the express image
of the feelings and wishes of the people.—(llear.)
This was not the sense in which the Honourable Messt-
bo• for Yorkshire (Mr. S. Wortley) interpreted the
opinion of that great man ; he seemed to have read
Burke in a different edition from that which lee (Mr.
Ss-kr%) had seen, for his notion seemed to be this,
that the House of Commons should be the express
ituage not of the feelings of the people hut of the
feelings of the Minister of the day.--(llear, hear.)---
if the people were, however, entitled to a real represen-
twice Government, the other question waa,o holier the
people at present were or were not really represented::
lie had net hesitation in saying they were not. If any
onc doubted this, the recent votes of that house ought
to potato e complete conviction. Ile appealed to those
-votes for the proof of what be advanced, as well as to
the rote in the case of the Queen. There the people
of this country almost tone viol. petitioned Best her
Majesty should be restosed to all her rights, and the
House decided against them by majorities nearly as large
ir. pr ,portion, as those which agreed to the Peitions
in thee country.—The Petitions of the people aizaitt-t
eetravagaut expenditure bad no better success. The
dematt:ls of Ministers, however exorbitant, met with
•the ready concurrence of the House, and in the Esti-
mates not a shilling was reduced in comp:Lowe smith
the universal prayer of the nation. It oas not
enough that there should be able and wise men in
that (louse; if such were sufficient oa that grou ail
emit. to represent the people, they might as well in-
vite them from foreign countries as look for thew at
home, but they wanted men in that I louse is ho had the
Petirgts if Englishmen ; there were many and
ingenious men in that House, but the d
lie
would
rather have a pure representation, than any talent
which a corrupt system could introduce. Ile did not
know whether Reform would leave the effect, as had
been said, of bringing into that House none but men
3vlso were as wise as serpents, and harmless as doves,
hut at all events, though some might be returned of
a different character, he would prefer purity of councils
in that House, to the display of the most distinguish-
id abilities without it. He was therefore decidedly
of opinion that the House ought to go into a Com-
mittee, though he did not, in every respect, approve of
the plan proposed by the Honourable Member for Dur-
ham (Mr. Lambtou.) The vice of that plan was,
that it excluded a certain description of electors whose
intermits ought to be representedinstance, it shut
oat all artisans who were not householders; he did
not approve of lbUniversauffrage ;no man abhorred
it more than he did, but thought that the artizans
should have a share in the choiae of Representatives.
-a--(Hear, hear.)--This, however, conld be discussed
*hen they went into a Committee. If be might give
his own opinion with respect to plans proposed, Ire
would say that the first and the most efficient plan
which b knew of was that of Lord Chatham, by add-
ing to the Coaagy repisnentation, and trinsferring
she trembles float Assayed bassets to large and po-

pulons towns. It was no objection to urge against
going into Committee, that the Reformers were not
agreed among themselves as to their plans. If they
did exactly tally with each other, it would be said
that they had all come from the same offloisos. it was
well observed on the preceding night, that the
differences of opinion among the religious reformers,
did not prevent the establishment of a reformation, yet
their differences were more numerous and more im-
portant than those of the political reformers of the
present day. They differed upon both doctrine and
ild-cipline, and yet were now enjoying the blessing. of
the glorious triumph Of their canoe.—(Hear, hear.)—
lie would not rlwyll lon,-er on this subject. The ques-
tion been s' able discussed already, that he could
do no more than repeat the arguments which others
had usea . lie lia,l earl); entertained the conviction of
the necessity of lielorni, and he was proud to profess
the principles of tl.e si hoot of such iilustrians politi-
cians a 5 Fox, Saville, mid Chatham. It must be evi-
dent to every one who reflected on passing events, that
Refurni vase in its progress, and it could not now be
stopped. lie would th,•;efore rather deal with it now
in a friendly manner, while that might be done, than
when it should have asFuuted a character of violence.
Now was the time to redress the errors of the Constie'
-
tution---now it was safe and practicable to remo
she
vices in its practice, and repair the damages which it
had sustained; a time might come when we should
regret that such an opportunity was allowed to pass
away.—(Hear, hear).
Mr. B.lRl\ti said, he would not go at any length
into the question then. It was suffivient for him to
blow that corruption did exist in the Representation;
and, as far as he knew, that House ought to be the
real representation of the Commons of England.—
(Hear, hear.)-1 he inflneece of individuals and of
the Peet. was too .!reat in that town to allow it to he
a pure representatt TI„ •y were therefore bound
to vote fur a I ettallitter, in which the state of the
representation two sld be c.oisidereol. As to the plan
pi...posed, many objections might be tahen agaio,t, it
—as to the point of shortening the duration of
Par-
Hann:llole was not prepared to decide upon that. and
say what should he theexact terni of duration ; but lie
could not how ally span who wished tor the perky
tit
of Parliaeet, rould vote against going ltito a
' mittee.--(Hear, hear.)—No man, by giviug his vote
for that 1 1111 l %ditty, pledged himself to any specific
plan. If the lion. Mover had not prepare had d a Rbeen
the charge would have been tnade which
often made loefore, that nothing was referred to the
Committee to deride upen. if the entire plan was
not adopted, 111 !input some parts of it would. It
could not lie denied that a certain corruption did
exist with respect to the return of Members, and it
was not the neture of corrupt' to *laud still; but it
%vas said, that the touchier of Pirliansent worked well ; it
might do so at present, but if the principle was an-
sound, it could not wort: well long. Those who sup-
ported Reform, were told that it was aecessary Minis-
ters shoo)') have a certain pnwer in that House, &Mr if
they lust a majority, they must retire from 'Ace He
could not sub-et-Pm to this doctrine ; for if it was ne-
cessary that Ministers sl ttttt lel always command a 111A-
jority, why were the Niernhers of this side of the House
to conic there and lose their time and health,
vainly
endeavouring to toads Ministers that the acts:. of pub-
lic men should be subject t., the pure emotion' of Par-
liament.—(llear, bear.) He hoped to see the time
when the House of Cumtnotts would mice more repre-
sent the people, and when seats should not any longer
be solid like cattle in the market. lie knew that the
sale of seats was arranged upon a scale of ranch
systematic corruption, that they brought differe
hnt
prices, arcortliug to the freedom of voting and e
knees Oa* if a seat had the initials Dlf I it brought
only half price. But ulestever the plan for efficiently
reforming the representation might be, the notorions
existence of corrupt practices was gronsd enough fur
g Ang int m the Ct 1111 l nittee.—Olear, hear )
Captain MAID/JUN • t Ind, that in giving his sup-
port to the motion for o oicinittee, hthee migh
nct be e
stiof
posed to to sanction, in stone measure, priipl
the Hill ; against that notion he wished to guard him-
%elf, objecting, us lie did, to the Bill proposed by the
Hon. Member ; what lie wished now to offer to the
consideration of the House, were rather souse specu
lations and crude observations of his own on the sub-
ject of !Worn, than any comment upon the plans of
others. lie was, himself, a most model ate Reformer,
and would only support sash a Reform as was essen-
tially undid and temperate.—(Hear, Istar.)--It could
not or denied that there were defects in the represen-
tation : and it was natural that there should be, for it
was Out the result of 'systematic wisdom, but arose is
the eontse of events, and adapted itself to circum-
stances, still carrying with it the traces of those Ire-
mate ages fruits witi. It it first sprung. The defechich,
ts be
conceived to be these, that several large towns,
w
on account of their opulence, commercial importance.
mei populousness, ought to have representatives. were
at present unrepretented. In the march of time,
another defect hail arisen, corresponding to that, It
was, that several towns, u Lich bad once a degree of
opulence and consideration, ceased to
cpsssess them.
these
and yet were represented. It was his idea
latter places should be disfraschised. and their fran-
chise conveyed to the others which were entitled to it.
This would have the effect of conciliating the people,
who were naturally irritated from the absence of that
political power %Web they had a right to possess. He
then went on to state the reasons on which he
intended to proceed, and entered into an his-
torical statement to 'thew that there was of old a dis-
cretionary power in the Crown to disfranchise bo-
roughs. No less than sixty-eight boroughs were dis-
franchised which bad formerly sent Members to Par-
%lament, and several boroughs had claimed exemption
front returning representatives. As the Crown ba
that discretionary power formerly of disfranchising
boroughs. and exercised it in so many instances, he
did not see why the entire Legislature was not com-
petent to exercise such a power, when necessary, to
rectify the representative system in conformity
thenwith
the spirit of the Constitution.—(Hear!) He
stated that be objected to the whole of the principle
of the Hill; it started upon a wrong principle, by re-
cognising householien as competent to vote, it wads
property the basis of the right of voting, and if pro-
perty was made the basis, the number of votes ought
to be increased, on a scale graduated accordieg to
the value of that property, and in proportio* as
householders were taxed ; but to make property the
basis, and then proceed on a principle of equality,

was an objection not to be overcame. He cent's! not
agree with those who were of opinion that the House
Ansa be purely popular; he believed it wits ne-
cessary to tine true support of the state mid the laws,
that both the Peers and the Crown ought to have some
influence in that House. He did not think it should too
exactly represent the will of the people. He could refer
to historical facts to skew, that a House of Commons,
wholly returned and influenced by the popular will, was
not the best for promoting.the prosperity of the country.
—The long Parliament was all example of this kind ;
that Parliament was supported by the whole power of
the people; but the check of influence being removed,
it overturned both the House of Peers and theruth Th
of his
positions to the Parlitmentary
whule, history
he wo in the r
eig
n
of
Charles the Second ; on the ul prefe
that House to he connected with the Peers and the
Crown, and to he in some measure under the direction
of secret influence, than to be controuled by the harsh
and overbearing power of popular claniour. He haul
inaile these observations because no other ttentleman
had offered what he conceived to be a practicable plan.
Mr. RANISDEN contended that there was a neces-
sity for infinity; lie was always of this opinion, hut
he was ,core strengthened in it than ever be %%hat
had happened at the seaclo of last year and the be-
ginning of the present ; he lluded to the conduct of ,
his Majesty's Miuisters relative to the Queen. He
never understood what object they had in lending
themselves to such an act of oppression.--(llear, lacer.)
, Ile then adverted to the principle of Reform as con-
tained in the Bill for the Disfranchiseinent of Dram-
pound, which was introduced by ails Noble FRriend, the)
Member for Huntingdonshire (Lord John u ssell.
The principle of that Bill he conceived, if acted upon,
would hate led to a full and efficient Reform, but in
1, the hands of the Honourable Member for Yorkshire,
it had been so mutilated that all its efficacy was de-
stroyed. Though be would vote for a Committee, he
was not prepared to go the whole length with the note
1 Mover in his plan of Reform. In the principle of
I shortening the duration of Parliament he agreed with
him, provided souse plan was devised for
If the elective
refranchse was to be iven to householders, shold be
recollectesd how niangy must be thereby deprit u ived of the
elective franchise. tie could not agree in any proposi-
tion of dividing the country into disttiets for the pur-
poses-
of election, as in a neighbouring State. His
lion of Parliament was, that it ought to he the teople's
House, and might to remain so, and that the executive
should have a colitrouling power any where else rather
than there.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HMI BORD said, that the necessity of some
reform was undeniable, and be would say, in language
made use of before, that if the Ileuse way not reformed
within, it must be one day or other reformed from
without. His object was to give the people a share in
that political power of which they were at present de-
prived, that they might be enabled to check the waste-
ful expenditure of public money, and prevent those
measures of extreme coercion to o hich Administration
was so much inclined to have recourse.—(llear.)
For his own part he would nut support any Adminis-
tration which did not make Reform in Parliament. it
declared and substantive principle of their government.
lie bud 110 dread of a reformed Parliament swallowing
up the power of the Crown and of the Peers. The
motion did nut pleeLre Members to any precise mode
of Reform, hut he thought a Committee necessary.
Mr. ItICARDO observed, that the subject of Re-
form was the most important question which could
come before that House. Ile was anxious,
therefore,
to declare his opinion with reference to it. lie agreed
with the Hon. Member for Durham that it was quite
necessary the House of Commons should truly repre-
sent the people. It WAS nut necessary for him to have
the proof of the recruit votes of the House to lie con-
vinced that the people were tint represented.—(llear.)
—Front the manlier in which that House was consti-
tuted, he was quite certain before of that fact. lie
would c übrace any plan which was likely to ellee the
country an efficient representatioth Ile was alma' to
delver a sentiment, which he knew wonlil not
omtheeet
with general approbation there. The only
part f
Hon. Mover's plan which did not meet his approbation
Was, that it del not fix the mode of election. This he
thought the most essential part of all really beneficial
plans of Reform, as it nas wore an obj ctitrnce e thia:. the
ce Re-
presentative should he the free, unitstld choi of 1
the people, than that the Iran, like should be extend-
ed ; and to obtain this free defier, lie thought sums.-
thing like vote by ballot on .: lit to be adopted. as that
would preserve election safe from the frowns of power,
or the inure debasing and fatal exertion of
llac Wiious n:lice.—
Nothing could, in his opinion. lir more fa than
the supposition, that if the people enjoyed a greater
share in the act of choosing t.seir representatives, they
would exclude from the !louse of o 1111 l tons menword os
f
intellilzence and integrity. 'that was in other
to say, that the I eople nould willingly and know-
Ogle get rid of what was coodut iv.: to their own good.
Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the motion. Ile always
believed that the word " Reform" meant nothing but
alteration.
Sic liEt)ittiF. ROBINSON s:sid, he would vote for
the Con 111 l ittee, although he could by no menus agree
to all parts of the plan proposed by the Hon. Member
for Durham. That stone Reforta of Parliament was
necessary, appeared to him to have been abundantly
proved during the present Session of Parliament, by
the way in which time Petitions of the people had been
treated in that House. It uas impossible, indeed, that
the peaple could expect redress of their grievances
Pros„ a Clouse of Co 1111 l tons constituted as the present

WJA.
Mr. WILSON, although lie did not profess to be a
Reformer, would by no means, in the event of any par-
ticular borough 01 place being proved corruptits tract
to its disfranchisement,
an•l the transfer of
chise elsewhere. He deuie !, however, that the House
of Commons ought to be so Constituted as in all cases
to meet the wishes of the people; for certaiy one
of the wishes of the people was not to pay any taxes ;
and if all the taxes were to be taken olf, how could
the Government of the Country go un?—(.l laugh.)—
Although popularly elected, he had never bat on two
occasions, been asked to pledge himself as to the con•
duct which he would pursue on particular questions.
He, however, did not consider himself as by any means
bound or called upon to adhere invariably to the opi-
nions of those whom he represented. Certainly hr
should be ashamed of himself if he did not feel warmly
for the interests of his constituents ; but when sent
to that House, he considered himself bound to look at
the interest of the whole community.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed,
that almost every Hon. Member who supported the mo-
tion for the Committee, added his disapprobation of the
plan which had been detailed by the on. Member for

• 4
.. 1 i
1 :
14 4. •
II!'
II :1
! i
. i
I i
. . 1 i li
)1 ' 4,.
'I