The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-07-05 00:00:00

'.4r

were agreed to, Could he anticipate any other effect
from the labours of the Commission, than to revive
forgotten animosities. or to exasperate those alteady
existing. It would be, in fact, a sort of roving Com-
mission, appointed to receive every exa4gera tett stalß-
rnent which might be offered, without possessing the
power of ascertnitting their accuracy by imposing
any oath, or of punishing offenders who might be
proved4(o+2*e depleted falsely. Such would be the
extent and limit of its operation, for it would not be
poskildc;TlVilie Crown to devolve upon it powers to
punish; Witt could have been done only by a Par-
liamentary Commissiott. The Itight Hon. Gentle-
man then vindicated the character of the Magistrates
and Juries of the North of Ireland, from the impu.
tatirs cast upon them by the language of the Peti-
tions, stating it as his firm belief that no good
gromuls existed for such insinuations, and concluded
by obset ring, with respect to the motion before the
Ilitirse, that on rout so ioul (I be more calculated to
telletuve animosities, and therefore he should feel
it his duty to oilpn..f• it.
Mr. M. FITZG ER A Lt.) insisted upon the urgent
necessity that some ramedy saoull be applied to the
vet), set ines evils which arose from the existence of
Otange Societies in Ireland. Ile observed that the
Petitions against them, which had been presented,
were from Preshyteriaos and Quakers, two classes
of persons who were not very likely to favour the
views of the Catholics, but who petitioned against
the Orange Societies, because by their proceedings
they occa I
tumults, confusion, and murder.--
lie roost solemnly and religiously Lettered, that in
eneseqttence of those associations the laws could net
be impartially administered in certain parts of Ire-
land ; and heti listed that the discussion of that night,
stliether successful or unsuccessful, would have the
sliest of callittg, not only the attention of Parlia-
ment, but of the public, to the subject. The Pro-
testants of Ireland, in fact, were more interested
tsiatt the Catholks in having the system put down.—
Ile should certainly support the motion, because, if
carried, it would lead to a salutary investigation, to
which he did not think any one could object.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD said he had never heard
a proposition submitted to that House in a manner
at hid, was less likely to secure success, than the pre-
emit. The loose alleeations which were contained in
the Petitions, however numerous they might be, and he
beg'ed leave to disclaim any intetition of treating the
Petitions of the people with disrespect, would not ho
sufficient to justify that House in appointing such a
Commission as was now moved for. Those allega-
tions were not only unsupported by evidence, or the
shadow of any evidence, but even the persons who
presented them ditl not venture to corroborate their
averments by charging upon the present Government
of Ireland any thing like partiality. It should be
remembered also, as it was really an important cir.
cutionance, that those parts of Ireland which wrro
unhappily disturbed at the present moment, were
universally those in wl,iclt none of the Orange As-
sociations existed. He tltoo;ht a Crentnission quite
uttnecessa Ty ; linked no 611flicient Parliamentary
ground had beet, laid for panting it ; and even if
there had, he was sure it would never produce those
bent fits w hich were expected.
Mr. NI. FITZC. ERA ID explained.
Gen. ARC li OA LI. said he was clearly of opinion
that the Orangemen of Ireland had been the salvation
of that coutot: v, and be r ould not, therefore, concur
in a motion whirl' would seem to cast a reproach
urn so meritorious a body.
Sir H. PARNELL replied, and contended that
nothing which had been advanced went to prove that
Such a Commission us he moved fur would not be be.
uefieial to Ireland.
• Mr. PEELE explained._

Sir G. HILL opposed the appoin►ment of a Com.
mission, contending that the conduct of the Orange.
men was marked by delicate feeling towards the
Catholics, anti that any agitation of the differences
between them might be productive of injurious con.
sequencev.
The !louse then divided--
For the motion
Aheilost it

sit
F 9
—69
On our return to the Gallery we found Mr.
—GRENFELL giving a notice relative to the Bank,
the precise nature of which the noise that prevailed
prevented us from collecting.
In answer to a question from Mr. BENNETT, as
to the steps which Government intended to tnke in
consequence of the Report made to that House by the
Committee on Public Prisons,
Mr. H. ADDINGTON said, that he could not at
present state the exact course which it was intended
to pursue.

Mr. BENNETT then gave notice that he would
himself bring the subject before the House.
Mr. BARING (as we understood him) asked the
Right nom Gentleman oppo,ite when it was intend-
ed to carry into effect the commercid provisions of
the late Treaty with the United grates?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIII:QUER re-
plied, that be Bill recently passed %%mild give the
Crown the opportunity of carrying those provisions
into cifect during the re:oss.

The CIL% NC !AA:. of the EXCIIEQUER
presented a copy of the Bull of Pope Pius VII. for
the testoroiion of the older of Jesuits.—[.l loud
laugh.3—Ordered to ho piloted.

THE DUKE 01:

Sir J. NIAJORIBANIi.i, in a vcry low tone of
voice, which rendered him almost inaudible in the
Gallery, proposed his vote of thatAs to the Duke of
York. for his conduct as Cominander-in-Chief. lie
said that he could assure the House he was not actu-
ated by any undue motives of p. rivate or party feel-
ing, as lie trusted thoso who knew him would be
ready to vouch. lie had not even the honour of
being known to his Royal Highness ; atul his sole
reason for coming forward on this occasion was his
hope that the House might be induced to express
their sense of the high services, rendered by his Royal
highness to the country during the long period in
which he I. Id had the chief command . f the army. His
Royal Highness's conduct both in the dispensation
of promotions, anti in all the complicated military ar-
rangements which his station imposed upon him, had
eviuced an activity and a discrimination which re-
dounded to his honour. The illustrious Chief by
whom the recent glorious victory had been obtained,
bat!, on the occasion of his appearance at the bar of
Olt House to acknowledge their congratulations ou

his retain from the Peninsula, observed, that to the
fnarery troops, and to the high slate of equip-
molt iii a hick they were maintained by the exrellent
regulations of his Royal Highness the Commander-
in-Chief, he was indebted for the power of achieving
those exploits which had acquired for him the appro-
bation of Parliament. Thl value of those regulations
etas still snore unequivocally evinced on the late me-
n.orahle occasion. By the ample means afforded
them, in addition to their native courage, the British
army had !wen enabled to resist for hours the repeat-
ed and impetuous shocks of the enemy. Like the
stubltorn oak, whick, with its roots deeply fixed in
the earth, withstood the fiercest blasts of the storm,
our gallant troops had borne without dismay the hot-
test assaults of the French army, until at length the
moment arrived when in their turn they became the
assailants, and carried destruction into the ranks of
the foe.—[Hear', hair!]—.Late as was the period of
the Session, he trusted that the House would not he-
sitate to express their approbation of the high and
meritorions services rendered to the country by the
Duke of York, and all that he regretted was that the
motion had not been made by the Hight lion. Gen-
tleman opposite, in the pretty and modest manner in
which he usually brought forward similar proleosi-
tion•t.—[.l laughl—Let the question, ho wever, ori-
ginate with %short) it might, the nation was under the
deepest aligations to his It.o)al Highness, and he
earnestly Mired that Parliament would assist in dis-
charging the deb•. !.eating it to their own CellSe of
justice, he would not trouble them any further than
by moving,
•• That the Thanks of this House be given to his Royal High-
ness the Duke of York, Captain-General, and Commander-in
Chief of his !ktajesty's forres, for his effective and unremitted ex-
ertions in the discharge of the duties of his high and impormut
situa,mo, during the period of upwards of I o enty years, in the
course of whirl, time the British army has :mai tied a state of dis-
cipline and skill before unknou o to it, and which exertions,
under Prn‘idence, have been in a great degree the means of ac-
quiring for this country the high military glory which it eujo, s
among the cations of Europe."

The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER.
was far from opposing the motion, although lie cer.
tainly was of opinion that it would have been brought
forward with more propriety at the close of the ser.
vices in which our army was engage/ In no in.
stance had any proposition of this nature been made
at a previous period. At the same time he was sure
that the li,tuse would do justice to the motives by
which the Honourable Baronet was actuated, and to
the feelings which he had expressed on the present
occasion,—feelings excited by the recollection of the
glorious esploits of our brave troops, who, by the
active exertions of his Royal Highness the Com-
mander in Chief, were pot in possession of these
means which had been wielded with so much success
by them and their illustrious Commander. in ad-
verting to this subject he could not refrain from ob-
serving, that it was a peculiar and gratifying fact
that the whole extent of the services rendered by the
Duke of IVellington and the British army was known
to us not by the modest recital of his Grace him-
self, hut by the narrative of our Allies, and by t con-
fessiotts of the enemy.—[llear, hear !J—'Those who
compared these various documents would feo.l, that
among the eminent qualities of our great Commander
the modest simplicity with which he related his own
exploits was oy no means the least.—[/Isar, hear!]
-t( WAS, however, perfectly true, as had been said
by the Honourable Baronet, that the exertions of
our gal;atat tionpu could tint have been successful,
bad tiley trot been in a state of unrivalled orguisiza.
tiou. This was the case with every branch of the
set rice. Whether the House considered the wi-
sh:lkt n firmness and intrepidity with which the
sustained the shock of the enemy, or the ye-
'lenience and force with which the cavalry charged
the hostile ranks, they must feel that. much was at-
tributable to the military equipment and arrange-
ments, which it had been his Loyal highness's sole
object, for many years, to approximate as nearly to
perfection as possible. He had not particularised the
merits of the Artillery—not because lie was in-
sensible of their extent and imam: tance, but bucaase
that was a branch of the service not immediately under
the superintendence of the Illustrious rorsonage
who was the object of the Honourable Baronet's
motion.

Gen. FERGUSON said, he had had an opportu-
nity of witnessing the rapid gr•wth and progress of
the army, since it had been placed under the com-
mand of Isis Royal Highness the Duke of York ;
and he considered it as a duty lie owed to the House
and the country, to state that it was his firm belief,
that the advantageous state of the army under his
Royal Highness was derived entirely from him--
pica,- !)--lie was happy in having thil opportunity
of paying Isis tribute to the merits of the Commander-
in-Chief.

Mr. wrsTERN said, it was with considerable re-
luctance he rose to make any objection to a motion
like the present, but he thought he was bound to do
so, and it uas on constitutional grounds alone that
he made his opposition. He trusted the House
would do him the justice to believe that he was ac-
tuated by no wish to detract from the merits of the
Illustrious Person at the head of the army. So far
from this he was ready to allow, to the fullest ex-
tent, the services of the Royal Duke. He was not
competent to judge of these services with accuracy
himself, but he was ready to take the concurrent tes-
timony of those who were competent judges in their
favour, and to abide by that decision. He gave,
therefore, the fullest credit to the merits of his
Royal Highness; but he could net distinguish the
constitutional character of that officer from the per-
sonat of the Royal Doke ; and he believed
that if the office of Commander-in-Chief had been
filled by any other person than the Royal Duke, the
present motion would not have been entertained by
the House. lie saw nothing to distinguish the office
of Commander-in-Chief from that of any other
Member of the Administration—no difference, for
instance, between it and that of Master-General of
the Ordnance, the Secretary of IVar, or Lord Com-
missioner of the Admiralty. Did it ever enter into
the contemplation of Parliament to return their
thanks to any of the persons holding these se-
veral offices ? He would challenge the House to
produce a single precedent in point, with the excep-
tion of the ♦ote of last Session in favour of his
Royal Highness. Such a vote as that now demand-
ed would go to "create an anomaly In the Constitu-
tion. How did the Constitution know of his Royal

.rule,

TIM STATESMAN.

Highness as Commander-in-Chief ? How eid it
know th'ist the Royal Duke would not be removed
from his office to-morrow ? They could not know
him cemitit atioaa Ily. If the House should I4e-
after wish to vote an Address for his removal from
office, they might be impeded by this act of their
°a it. At the close of the last war, when the thanks
of the House were voted to the navy and army, and
when scarcely forty Members were present, it was,
without any previous notice, proposed by the Mem-
ber for Taunton (Mr. Baring), that when the House
voted their Thanks to the army, the Duke of York
ought to he included. Ile certainly considered this
as unconstitutional. But if the Thanks which were
now moved for had been postponed for a similar pe-
riod, to the close of a war, there would be the less
• objection to the measure. lie considered the time
and manner in which this motion had been brought
forward, independently of other objections, as ex-
tremely unfortunate for the Duke of York. It was
unfortunate that no notice bad been given of such a
motion, till after another Ilonourable Gentleman
had sonic evenings ago introduced into another dis-
cussion the character and services of the Duke of
York. It was more unfortunate still that the present
motion should instantly follow the rejection of the
grant to the Duke of Cumberland, that it should ap-
rear to arise out of that rejection, and that it Should
be brougat forward un so short a notice, at so late a
period of the Session. It would appear as if the
discussion of the grant to the Duke of Cumberland
had suggested the present motion. If the House
were to adopt a measure of this sort, let it he post-
poned to the termination of the war, and after a full
and fair notice. If he should not be convinced by
some stronger reasons than any which he had yet
heard, he would give his vote against the motion.
Sir J. M AJORI BA NKS explained.
Mr. W. POLE said he wished to state the senti-
ments of his noble relation, the Duke of Wellington,
• respecting the services of that Royal Duke who was
at the head of the army. AWould any man, with true
British feelings, lay his hand upon his heart, and say
that they ought lint to consider the merits of that
great Personage, because he believed that if any
other petson than a Prince of the Blood had held
• that situation, the House would have taken no no-
-1 lice of his services ? Ile would say, that if any sub.
jail of the nation had acquitted himself as the Royal
Duke had done, the tkanks of the (Ions? would be
• doe to him. V hi% advice had been asked with re-
spect to the present motion, he •should have said, '
wait till the war is over, and then give the grate-
ful thanks of the House to the Officer who is at
the head of the army, he he who he may. Was
that unconstitutional ? Were they to he deterred
from thanking the Royal Personage who at present
held the office, lest the House of Commons should
afterwards think proper to vote his removal from
office What then would become of their thanks
to the Duke of %Wellington ? NVere they precluded
from enquiring into the Duke of Wellington's con-
;duct at any time hereafter, because they had former-
ly voted to him their thanks ? No.—The thanks of
the House might he a guarantee to them that h
I would always conduct himself in a manner deserving
of them; but they would he no guarantee to any
Commander, he he who he might, even the Duke of
Wellington, who hail carried the glory of the Lit itish
arms art high, that the House would not look with a
jealous eye into his conduct. But the Honourable
Gentleman had objected to the vote of thanks be-
cause it was unconstitutional, and he had afterwards
said, wait till the war is over before proposing such
a vote. If the vote was unconstitutional the objection
against it would weigh the same at the end of the war
as now. Be had risen simply to state, that the
Noble Doke at the head of the army did believe that
he could nut have won the battle, which was the
cause of so much joy, if it had not been for the great
:and unremitting exertions of the Duke of York—
[Me", hear!]—that he could not have hoped for
. success if the Dike of York had not dedicated his •
whole caertious strengthen him.—[(/ear, hear n
i —There were great difficulties in the way. The kn.
provements which had taken place in that army
astonished him. He conceived that they could only ,
have been the fruit of the most unremitting efforts.—
Ilk Noble Relative was, above all, astonished at
the impartiality—at the very few cases of grievance
which had not been considered. Knowing all this,
he felt that he should have ill disciArged his duty to
the House and the public if lie had not stated this,
and assured the House that no man in the country
was more sensible of the merits of the Duke of York,
and the accession of stieligth to the army which had
been derived from them, than the Doke of Welling- •
' ton himself. The Doke, in his u.ual emphatic way,
in a private letter, slier stating that be had never
taken such pains about any battle, and that he never •
was so near being beater, observed, " In my life
never knew a British army behave so well." Ile
made no distinction beta veil cavalry, infautiy, aml
• artillery—all did equally their 'holy. Let it be
heard by the country and the sve;:sl :hat the Member
for Essex thought the person to uhmn the condition
of that army was due, was n at entitled to the thanks
of the House ; and that as they lad uo precedent fur
• such a vote, it was unconstitutional.
. Mr. A. BARING justified the part which he had
taken last Session, when the name of the Doke of
York had been wholly omitted in the proposed Vote
of Thanks to the Army. Ile thought the Right Ho-
' nourable Gentleman (Mr. NV. Pole) would have ;
acted much more wisely in considering coolly the
arguments which had been most modestly stated by
his Ilmiourable Friend, who had not uttered a single
syllable against the conduct or character of the
Commander in Chief, than in adopting a tone of
warmth altogether uncalled for. His Honourable ,
Friend had merely doubted whether the Commander
in Chief was not more a civil officer of the Go‘ern-
ment than the Commander of the Forces properly
so called. He himself thought that there was a dis-
tinction between the Commander in Chief and any
Officer ander Government. Ile concurred with his
Honourable Friend and the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer in thinking, that this was not a time for
bringing forward a subject like the present ; but
whenever the vote was proposed, he felt it his duty
to concur in it. At the same time he did not think
it very conaitutional to call on the House to rote
their thanks every six or nine months. Ile did not.
however, see that the motion could wills any pro-
priety be withdrawn, as the motives might net ge.

nerally be understood. He hoped the Vote of
Thanks would be followed up with another motion
for an additional provision to his Royal Highness;
and if any proposal of that nature should be made,
he shoul,l also feel it his duty to give it his support.
With respect to the services of the Duke of York,
most Gentlemen were aware that they were of a de.
seription to take up a great portion of his
Hardly any department of Government had been
more regularly attended to. He had indeed been
Wormed that his Royal Highness was at his office
more regularly than the Chief of any department wader
Government, and that all the results had been pro.
duced by the most unremitted exertions. His anyat
Highness had now been a great number of years in
his (Alice, without having re•cei►ed any addition to hit
provision. It stood the same now as it was twenty.
five years ago. He suggested the propriety of re•
lieving his income from some of the incumbrancet
contracted by him from the want of economy natu-
ral to youth, and to his high rank. No state of the
finances ought ever to induce them to disregard claims
which were entitled to their gratitude.
Mr. B. %VI LBRAIIA M did not conceive thatany
precedent was necessary to induce the House to tic.
cede to the present motion.

Colonel WOOD conceived that no officer was pre.
eluded from receiving the Thanks of the House if
he deserved them. In his opinion one or two altera.
lions had been worked in the army by his Royal
Highness the Commander in Chief, which could not
have been worked by any man breathing but him.
self. When he came into office it was the practice
to buy commissions, and then running up the differ.
ent steps all at once, this had been pot a stop to,
and the highest ns well as the lo►vest was obliged to
go through the different gradation►. Otte point was
peculiarly deserving of notice—the British army,
when he succeeded to office, was without tactics; no
two regiments in the service acted on the same Sys.
tem, and they could not be brought to act together.
A system lit.d been introduced the most simple, yet
the most effectual, by which troops from all parts
of the world could be instantly brought to act to-
gether.
_ _

Mr. METHUEN said, if it could he made not
that the services of the Duke of York were not auf.
ficiently provided for, he was ready to vote ■n ad.
ditiunal allowance, but till that was explained he
should not be doing his duty if
against any such grant„

~117,V177713Trinirallovred that there waii grist
weight in what had falleu from in Uganivahlehitin.
ber (Mr. Western), that, strictly, a Vote of Titmice
was no more due to the Duke of York than to any (*i
other Member of the Administration. If, however,
that most grateful reward was conceded, he lamented
that pecuniary compensation should have been al.
luded to, as an addition to the ample allowance el.
ready given to the Commander.in-Chief. The prin.
cipal cause operating in the minds of many Gentle•
men, was undoubtedly the enthusiasm at present ex-
' isting in the minds of all classes, which outstripped
all precedents. ft wasto he regretted, that the bro.
ther of tylie Duke of Wellington (Mr. W. Pole) had
thought fit to take so high and so lout; a tone upon
this subject, as if (he House would be deficient in its
duty. if it did not concur in the motion before it, sines Z
it was unquestionably a suhject that admitted a doubt,
even if it could not he said that the proposition. was
not altogether improper: it was a motion in which
many Members, and he for one, would rather cone
than object, from the general warmth of feeling es-
isting in consequence of successes procured by the
efficiency given to the army by the Duke of Yuck.
When he saw the tribute in praise of our troops r 5.
torted from the enemy, he thought it would be rather
too ri;;icl, erect after the injudicious speech of Mr.W.
Pole, to refuse assent to the motion.
• r . 1 . 5 tar
i r e r TIM Mr

- suavity suppm motnfil.
Mr. Serjeant I3EST, instead of objecting to the
establishment of a new precedent in this case, would
be very glad to see many of them on the Journals of
the House. If it were objected that the Doke of
York was merely a Minister, he would reply, that he
should be glad to see similar votes passed to other
meritorious Ministers, who had in no smail degree
contributed to our signal success. He wished, how.
ever, that the present vote had been postponed, and
principally that it might have followed some testi-
mony to another Illustrious Personage, to which all
our triumphs might be traced. If the Duke of York
had brought the army to a state of unexampled per.
fection, who was it that had placed his Royal High-
ness in the of of Commander-in-Chief ? The
Frince Regent.—lf the Duke of Wellington had been
victorious, who had given him the command of the
army ? Th. Prince Itegeirt.—He begged the House
to relle.a upon the state of the country at the time
the Pr in aof Wales accepted the Regency. Lord
Weiliegion was inclosed at the lines of the Torres
Yedras, and the SpairislrGoverinnent was confined
in Cadiz. It became a question whether we should
tint o iihdra w from the contest, and the Prince Res
g-ht, in the only way in which a Sz.vereign could
(Leer mine it, had decided the question by taking to
his Councils those Ministers who were willing to
Prosecute the war with vigour, as diametrically op.
posed to those echo were anxious to resi4u the cart.
test, lie mars convinced that the gratitude of the
(Iroise was due to no ran more than to the Prince
Regent, and though from the ufficial situation he
held, it nright, perhaps, not so properly devolve upon
him, yet if no Gentleman more equal to the task
%sonic: come fore aid on some future occasion, he
should feet it incumbent open him to bring the most
valuable services of the Prince Regent under the
notice of Parliament.

Alderman SMITIf qopported the motion, as well
a% Air. 11. ADDINGTON.

Mr. FORBES was in favour of a pecuniary re.
Ward, as he understood that the Duke of York la.
hooted at present under great difficulties.
Mr. HART DAVIS spoke on the same side.
After a few words from Sir J. MAJORIBANKS
in really, the question was put and carried.
7-7111rr ITT' 73-

'lTetiiii—np Bill Was read a tnirt. rime , passe-;
as ell as the Stage Conch Bill, after some remarks
from Lnrd A. Ilattillto”, 4r. W. Smith, the Chan-
ce•llor of the Exchequer, Mr. Forbes, and Mr. But-
terwor',ll.

On the guratiatt that the Report on the Bread
.I,size 1311 he taken into further consideration,
Mr. F. LEWIS presented a Petition from 800
Bakers is favour of it.