The Statesman.
London, England, 1810-04-14 00:00:00

1

StAisksMAti.

IMPROAL PdM4INXNIk.-;-'

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-
. -
hough Of LOROS',,4IfOWaa
.
lan Cininsittee Privneei, Mr. Mitihebus win heard
'ialtelipM .toidy Asti Kef, whem Mk farther cairsitteri-
41th of the subject was deterred to Monday oest;at half-past
two o'clock.
The Local Militia Amendateni sill, aad virtnits Private
Bills, were brought-lp fres Ike Corinna; and read tire
first these. •
The Earl of LAUDERDALE;'iseferrink to a on the
Table, respecting the dhpiisal of eetaia lAnds in Scotland,
gairetiotice of a nation which he should sake neat Moodily,
tis take into consideratioo a Standing Order, established to
May 1794, as connected with a clia.w in the said Bill.
Adjourned to to-surroii.
\,_ l•• •
MOUSE OF COMMONS; APRIL 15.

Mr. Woodford, from the Eichequer, presented =awake ,
of the Consolidated Fuod.—Ordered to lie osi the Table.
On the motion for the second reading of the Yarmouth '
Water Works, it waintend, that it be read a second time on 1
this day six months.
The Aniendment was carried without a division, conse-
quently the Bill was throws out.
SOUTH LONDON WATER WORKS.
Mr. HOME SUMNER moved, that the Report of the
Committee on the South Loodim Water Works Bill be taken
into further consideration.
Mr. H. MARTIN opposed the Bill, on the grounds that it
Infringed on the right of an Cotopaxi), namely, the
Lambeth Water Works, and against whicii no salliciest com-
plaint had been made. He thought the Bill called on the
Haile to violate every principle of good faith ; for if the
Lambeth Compasy,eitaldhhed in 1785, had performed what
they undertook to do. they could net be justified in depriving
them of the advantages they at ',resent enjoyed. Ile con-
eluded with stating his intention of ctoving amendments to the
objectionable claim.
The SPEAKER wigßested to the Hon. Member. that if he
disapproved of the Bill, the better way to proceed, would
be to move that the Report be taken tutu further considera-
tion ono distant day.
Mr. MARTIN then moved, that the Report be takes into
further consideration on this day sir mouths.
After some further observations, strangers were ordered to
withdraw. when a division took place. The numbers were,
For the Anwadowut - 60
Against it • 32

Majority; against the Bill - 28
Mr. GRATTAN gave notice that he wania on the 15th of
May nest move, that the Catholic Claims be taken into con.
sideratiou I Raise should rest his argument on two great
principles, tint, the justiceof the claims themselves, and on
the impropriety of the inauguration of their Bishop by Fir.
reign Powers.'
Sir S. ROMILLY gave notice that be should, on Monday
next, move for the release of Gule Jones.
The Highway Bill went through n Committee, after
which the Report waabrought up, and entered to be taken
into further consideration on this day three weeks.
The third rending of the Innkeepers' Provision Bill was
postponed to Monday acct.
Mr. ROSE moved that there he laid before the Rouse, a
Copy of the Observations of the Surgeon-General on the
Fifth Report of Military Inquiry, dtc.-.-Oidered.
MR. CALCRAFT'S VINDICATION.
Mr. CA LCRAFT rose in consequence of the
charge that had been made against him by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and other Gentle.:
men opposite,, which was, that during the time he
was Clerk of the Ordnance, proper securities bad
not been taken from a Mr. Ridge, appointed to be
an Agent of Artillery. Ile contended that secu-
rities had been obtained' from that geutleman, on
his appointment to the situation given him by Earl
Moira. lu justification of hitaitelf, he should
feel it his duty to move for papers that would vitt.
dicate his conduct. He concluded with moving,
that there be laid before the House such extracts
from the Instructions to the Board of Ordnance
as directed that Board to the taking of securities
from Agents to the Artillery.
Mr. A. COOPER mid, that,Mr.,Ridgc's
had never.becn executed by that Gentleman. He
did not know, that the securities were always
changed on the appointment of a new Master-Ge..
neral of Ordnance, as had been supposed, for the
sectvity was.given to the King. He could not
see that it was the particular duty of the Clerk of
the Ordnance to see that proper securities were ta-
ken. The instance of Mr. Ridge was not the on-
ly one where security had not been taken. There
was another instance, that of a Mr. Hopkinson,
through whose hands considerable sums of money
passed ; but he could not say that it was the parti-
cular duty of the Clerk to spa that proper wcari-
ties were taken. .
Mr. CALCRAFT thotsght that the Gentlemen
opposite began to shrink from the charge they had
so boldly made last night. It was not till some
stir began to be made about Mr. Hunt's securities,
that Mr. Ridge was called upon. Another charge
had been brought forward about a Mr. Hopkin.
son ; but If time were given him he would under-
take to prove that the charge was groundless. If
he, or the last Administration, had omitted the
performance of their duty, that certainly could
not be any excuse to the Gentlemen' opposite for
an omission of theirs. The persons at present in
office allowed Mr. Ridge to continue in his situa-
tion for more than two years•after they came into
powei, before be was asked fur any security.h
Wit absurd for Ministers to endeavour to dated'
theineelves by that mode of recrimination they had'
flamed.
Mr. LONG vindicated the conduct of Minis,'
tent. •
Sir SOHN NEWPORT said that Ministers had
been rally -of a breach of their duty' in not
bringing toward Butte charges before; if they had
been•ht pieseevient of them. It was the ditty of
evert now Board of Ordnance to look nice the
flutes of thc former Board. The defence of red
criminitiun Which had been.aet up- was not new ;
it was the practice of the Chancellor of the Ex.
chequer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, _that nothing 11111 further from his intention
than 91 defending his conduct, sod that of his colel
leagues, by a contrast with the conduct of the taste
administration.
Mr. PONSONBY ironically Complimented thei
transcendent abilities of the Chancellor of the 61..1
chequer& and doubted not but the public Would be
daily more and more convinced of his fitness for
filling the situation he now holds. As to his for-
bearance in speaking of the" last Administration,
oh lit was ciemplary I and as to his modesty in
speaking of his own merits, oh I it was amiable /.
As to the' recriminating charge, it would nut head
good, for there .was no similarity bowel* Mei
eases of Mr. Hunt aod Mr. Ridge., Ile calitid its
th'e Chancellor of the &chequer to deport awes
his accustomed good nature and (wheats.% wedi
to bring forward every instance Of the neglect
of the last Administration that ha could disco.
tor.
• •
sr-i:oiaso

•

A .~
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... -
lifit'. tAl.Carrilreoltte, tbet•Aegr)
charge eislch had See* illiial jot isteild, be. feed
light es air. The Chin'eeller .orthe ititelaegieer
strove to fluid partfich in the conduct oT the :last
Athistnittritlod' fai 'the rofiie*-6(.his., ad • ; cut
here he Weald- fail. The Right Hon. •Geefeaosts
(the Chaniellor Of the Bichequer) had-
at ingtS
..
adopted the freer tone of sovereignty; he was to
order keels papers as he pleaSed ; he Waal ff; act
without asking the Nave of the Reese:Apia* to
strut. the petty dictator OrtheAssembli., n.,',Jlntt,"
laid Mr. Caltraft; " though Ite acts as it be had
the House of COirimetisiti his pocket, though he
My order or refute - the •papers, the ,coliduri of •
the tepteientatiVe stilt goes forth to the public,
I aid my charatter *ill be Scared befOre my eon.
etitaenta." . . . .
•:111k. IL WARD called the Honourable Mete:
beilis order ; it *as not allowable to say that
ettrisen had the House 'of Commons le his
pocket.
Mr. CALCIAirr' did hot kuol thatit• rat
disorderly to see those words; but, bowls cure
that it *at not itileoristitalonal.' Ife the! pry-
seceded :to more, for. Papers
.icletlie-hti. Ridge!'
security.- A' ' ' .
Mt. A; COOPER, alto moved for ..1 dip" of
this Mink* of the Ordnance Hoard, calling .ear
Mr. Hopkinton; agent fur the butte Artillery;
to give Its his security, and aho for I Copy .f *
security. - .
Silt FRANCIA BURDETT: .
i
The SPEAKER acquainted the !toile' that *it
had received a letter signed Fiends Vara
on which he wished to know the .phaeton, .
.40
Slide. "On ti hey of tead! rind! tie tea.-ia Ma
. „ •
lows i— ' '
" TO .TAM kftIOIT SON. CHARLFII 113
SPEAKER OF THE' HOUIIE OF -COMM ..,
•• sse,-:•iiSe haying, on or about thellab Altai- '
E
" instant,• n Speaker of the Heise of CoMalialas &OW*
" broke and entered the dwelling-hails at any, lii supt
" demigned Francis Burdett, situate in Ficcadtkle ..io SP
"- Pariih of St. James; Westminster, in the catitatrOf Milli
" dlesex , and having Elio' on the said Soh day of April?
" caused me to be apprefeeelled; eat tietawfulli eitiumitats
" to a certain prlion; called lilt Stajesty't Twice of iLest3
" sad to be there imprisoned, and di yet kept and dens
" in prison there, without any reasonable br probable cause
4, whatever, I do, therefore, according to the ibrm Of thi
'4 Statute in such ease node and provided; hereby glee yod
" notice, that I shall; at or soot after the expiration of gee
" calendar month, Octal the Nato( your .belog 'erre& 'lol'
" this notice, cause a bill to be Sled stating you Di 1041i4
" jesty's Court of King's tench, m Westielesser, aattinfirrii
" of summons to be thereupoo sled rut of his Majesty's odd
" Court of King's Bench, at Westminster. against 7w* at
" my ioit, for these said tinplate aatifithe imprisooment,
" and Shall proceed againityoe thereupon according to lOW.
" I am, &c. ,
" FRANCIS BUROBIT.
"4 Dated tilb 12th Day of April, 1810." . .
The SPEAKER laid it was at the optibri of the
House whether the letter should be entered on
the Journals. . . , .. .
The CHANCELLOR uf the ECREQUER
said something on the subject, but in an low a
voile is to be almost inaildible. •
Mr. PONSCiNRY thought Milks Mint Ought
to lie upen the dournals. '
Mr. WHITBREAD *al Of Ike tete Widest.
The:Miter eolklitnecTistialiig diet could stake it
unfit to be receiVed ; Ind it might be the groitod
of great questions hereafter *sill. triad.
The.letter Wei then ordered to ,be i
inserted ima
the JoUrdalt. •
',• Mr. A. COOPER- moved for igaiw-tis Irriig ha
a Bill regulating the security to be respired from
Publicflicera,
Mr. HORN.Eft objected to the Bill, of only
kincreissitig the. number of Statutes, without pro.
!siding any suilicient remedy against peculation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
defended the. principle of the Bill. •
A, cenveriation then ensued betweellte. Wards
Mr. Cooper, Sir J. Newport, and Mr. Parneffs
whodeclared his intention of 'moving. an Address
to the King to displace the Beard of Ordnance.
, • TYTHES IN IRELAND.
Mr. PARNELL said, that in rising. to Mike
the motion he should here the honour to propOssl
;to the House, he thought he had a Clans on their
attentions as the proposition he had to sitbmit to
their consideration, was in behalf of a large body -
''of bis Majesty's subjects, who had lately -been
much disappointed by the new obstacles arislug to
'their favourite measure of Catholic Emancipi.
lion ; and he hoped the House would in some de.
gree soothe their wounded feelings, by takinginto
otheie most serious eonsidriation the many cruel ,
4ardships they suffered in• consequence of the pre.,„ ,
;tent state of tythes, and the mode in' which they., :. -
I Irierc collected. He further flatteied'hinteelf with ~
the hope, that if an inquiry *ere agredd to be in,
'Muted on this subject, the result would be some
*specific and effective measure towards a Commute.
Lion for Tythes. The Hon. Gentleman stated
~
the hardships the Catholics endured by being f oill
. polled to•per this heavy Impost to the Protestant
Clergy, in addition to having to maintain. those
of their own persuasion. He believed the pro.-
porfion of Catholics and Div enters to those 4;,,,.:: .
the Protestant Established Church, was as olikris
to ones so that the Protestant Clergy reeeivett,-, 4
'9-tenths-for defy done to 1-tenth. He knew it . :
was impossible to provide an adequate remedy for
this evil ; but he would *ish to do to as f4r as ,
may be, and he understood'end beikved the Pro.
' fel tent Clergy were desirous something pr this land
Should be effected. Whets it wes canitcfert4 how
`very cnuch,tylikes operated ass restriction on the . .
agricoltere 'of Ireland, it Mutt create'great inter.
est is the House. In the lettr 18081 •ta hvit tbs.., i
poits of the Baltic were Shot againsf.Sbia country . ‘
' by the enemy's decrees, the defirlencx if the fu.
reign supplies was made up front Irel4n4.;,.and .. •
.faet year 800,000 quarters of' grain were'kmpOrt.
ito from thence. He thought he had shoWnvong ,
,grounds why some relief should heAr'anfed, With.
out making any alteration as ttilythus in Dig,
laud. He might perhaps be tated . with procettL_
ing with temerity; but It was hot his intentioo to
propose any particular plan now, Int only that
the House would inquire into the c.tsi, and give 7 -
such relief as might be iu their power. Great

4

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F

the point of possessing himself of the whole pe.
niosula of Spain, the ports of which were so pe-
culiarly well sitnated for making a descent on Ire-
land, the weakest and most vulnerable part of
the United Empire; on which there could be no
doubt but be kept 'watchful cud a longing eye,
and which he would unquestionably use every cx.
erticm to accomplish. The lion. Gentleman con-
cluded a long and able speeclt, of which it is only
in our power to give a sketch, by mein—
'. That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the
manner in which Tythes are collected in Ireland, and to re-
port the same to the Home."
Which having been read from the Chair,
Mr. W. POLE declared, that there was no one
more anxious to seek some way of regulating the
Tythes in Ireland than he was ; however he found
it impossible to agree with the proposition of the
Hon. Gentleman. It tia• injurious to give the people
of Ireland an idea of relief without showing the clear
way to obtain it ; and, indeed, he was astonished
that after a pelted of so many years, during
which the Honourable Gentleman had been con-
sidering the nature of tythes, he should now
refer to authorities to validate his assertions.—
Notwithstanding his view had been imperfect, he
had asserted that the Clergymen were never op-
pressive themselves, but that oppression was to be
attributed to their Proctors alone ; in this he wits
mistaken. The fact was, that in Ireland it is ens.
!ornery for landholders to cant their lands to the
hlghest bidder, exclusive of the consideration of
incuinbrances ; ignorant persons then bid for the
lands without recollecting the Tythes ; eventually
the landlord come. down on his tenant for the
rent, who Is disabled thus from covering his
Tythes. The landlord, therefore, and not the
Clergyman, is the oppressor : this had long
been under the consideration of his Majesty's
Ministers. The Honourable Gentleman had
said that the Corn and Leasing Tythes were
not sufficient. Whatever change might take
place, there was never any idea but of securing
the rights of the Clergy. Ile would state ano.
ther obstacle : in every calculation it appears that
they, on an average, receive only the one-twee.
tieth, and in many places the one-thirtieth • how
would it be possible to afford any relief then, if
we were to set out en the basis of their receiving
the one.tenth ? This was an objection which
could not be got over, and ho deprecated the
idea of the business going to a Committee. There
was another obstacle, which was, that no two
parts of the country pay in the same way :
some pay Tythes for potatoes ; others do not.
The great cause of dissatisfaction arose not be..
cause the Clergy got more than their dims, but be-
*suss the landlords did, who pinched their tenants,
and urged them to object against the Tythes.—
With respect to titi leasing of Tithes he believed it
to be impracticable; in order to ascertain some
particulars relative to this, he wrote to the curate
of the parish in which his house Minds, and found
that 1937 persons paid tythes : but lest ho should
think the income exorbitant, he added, what
proved to be true, that 3-fourths of them paid only
from one to two shillings a year. If an Incum.
lent had it in his power, he would let the lands to
what are called Middle-men, and thus perhaps in
the end the Tythe would be increased hum one to
five shillings, and upwards. lie disapproved of the
intention of making the Catholic, pay, as it were,
iu a secret manner ; this project he believed to be
totally impracticable. The Bill to enfure the re.
sidence of Clergymen, in a great measure obviates
the evils arising from the oppression of Latidlords.
If the Hon. Gentleman had moved for leave to
bring hi a Bill, he would have been happy to have
discussed it. The Right Hon. Gentleman declared,
that if be was to accede to the motion far going

ikt

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aataben of those wbo paid tythcs in Ireland were
so siserablipoor, that they were actually pan.
pen, and if in this country would be sent to the
parish. He knew he might be charged with an
attempt to invade the rights of the Protestant
Clergy, but he had no such design ; he meant to
give them a compensation equal to their tythes.
His plan was, to Inn • return made of the ac-
tual net produce of all the livings in Ireland, and
according to the sum annually received by each
Protestant Clergyman, the same sum should be
paid to him by a tax on the Catholics and Dissent.

_
‘rs as a compensation ; and this, when collected,
would not appear to them to be paying tythes,
Ind would be free from all those vexatious modes
which now attend their collection, and which are

continually resisted. It would be the means of
restoring peace among the people, and would be a
real benefit to the Clergy, many of whom did not
now receive a tenth, nor any thing like it.—
Tythes, he said, had been the foundation, and
had given a spring to all the insurrections that had
happened in Ireland. First, there was that of
the White Boys, which lasted thirty years; then
the United Irishmen. The insurrection in 1799

was occasioned by the Threshers, and was wholly
owing to the collection of ty thee. If, therefore,
tythei had been the cause of repeated insurrec.
tions of nearly 60 years continuance, he thought
there must be very good grounds for the Ilotise
to inquire into the subjeqt. Ile begged to call to
the recollection and attention of the House, that
• one of the tneasures promised at the Union was
an alteration of this system. Thu celebrated
speech of the Right ll4n. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt),
who was the author of the measure, delivered ow
that occasion in this House, in which there was a
.passage which held up tythes as a practical evil of
great magnitude, that would be done away by
the measure of thu Union, was printed at the ex.
pence of Government, and industriously eircu.
hated by them, by hundreds and thousands,
throughout every part of Ireland, in- order to
make It more palatable to the great mass of the
people, by a promise that it should begot rid off.
His true purpose, he said, was to appoint a Corn.
tnittee to enquire into the mode in which Tythes
were collected is Ireland, for the purpose, he
hoped, of removing a great practical evil. Ile
hoped the Right Hun. Gentleman opposite to him
would not shut his cars against the just complaints
of the people of Ireland, so lately disappointed
Io the object of the Emancipation of the Cattle. i
and thus further irritate their minds and feet.
lugs at the very moment when Bonaparte was on

r

into a Cetami tee he phould be betraying his trust,
because the Hbb. tentteman who desired the Com.
Agee to be appointed had not ahewn any fact on',
which to grant it, and by whisk tile object could',
be obtained.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that he mist
ever regard the marked inattention of Ministertto
every application.fur the redress of the Irish peo.
ple upon this subject, as a gross+ breach of those
pledges by which the Noble Lord (Castlereagh)
had contrived to accomplish the Union. But this
pledge was not made merely by the Noble Lewd,
but by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Pitt) whose successor the present Minister boasted
of being, aye, and by the Right Honourable
Gentleman himself (Mr. Perceval,) who, immedi.
ately upon his succession to office, promised to
take lip the business. The Right Honourable
Gentleman, however, was contented to promise,
and from Session to Session to renew that pro-
mise, without any apparent intention to felfil
it. The last speaker uow succeeded to the same
aystem of promise, .and he very much feared
he would succeed to the same system of
Performance also. The Right Honourable
Gentleman called upon the House to wait until
next Session, and that then he might do something.
But was it fair thus to deal with the people of
'lreland?--and if they must wait, would the
enemy wait also ! Would that enemy who was
ever active in his hostility to the British Empire,
decline to avail himself of the neglect of the En.
glish Government to perform its engagements to
the Irish People ? Would ho overlook the dis.
content with which the severe oppression of the
T,ythe System was perpetually corroding the mind
of the Irish? This was a consideration to which
that House onefit to. attend, cre it was-yet too
late. They should take care to strengthen
Iretaad, as Ireland was the vulnerable point,
and that strength was best to by produced
by removing the discontents of its unfortunate
population. The people of that country had real-
ly been so very ill treated upon the subject of the
motion, that it could not be too emphatically
urged upon- the consideration of the House. At
thu period of the Union, an act fur abolishing the
Tythes of agistment was carried, became, accord.
ing to the distinct declaration of a Learned Prelate
in the Irish House of Lords, that measure must
be carried as one of the conditions of on acquies-
cence in the Union. But the complete connuta.
tion of Tythcs was also promised. The latter,
however, not having been granted, the effect of
the former was wholly to transfer the burthen
of Ty then from the rich landed proprietors
to the poor. It might be pretended, that
there was no distinct pledge at the timl! of
the Union to accede to a commutation of
tythos. There might havebeen no written bond;
but there was that which was equivalent to a bond
in the minds of men of honour. There were pros.
peels held out in various directions, and Fondles
made by the highest authority, that a commutation
of tythes should be one of the first consequences
of the Union ; and *these very flattering pro.
mises he could assert served to reconcile many
to the adoption of that measure. Still it was pos-
sible that the same miserable expedient might be
attempted with regard to these promises which had
hetet resorted to upon the subject of-the Catholics..
flow the pledges to the Catholics had been evaded
could never escape the recollection of that House,
or the Irish nation. But the evasion was glaring.
He could prove at the bar, as he had before otter.
ed, that those pledges had been actually made.
He could indeed show, by irrefragable testimony,
how the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had managed
the business—how the Catholics had received a
solemn promise in one room, whilst a different pro.,
raise was made to the Protestants in another—and
how the promises to both had been grossly vin.
loted—how the Noble Lord

" Kept the word of promise I. the ear,
" Aga broke it to the hope."
but although all the promises to the people had
been disregarded, promises to individuals were
rigidly fulfilled, and Ireland had in consequence
tp deplore, among other evils, an absolute degra.
dation of the judicial functioft. After expatiating
further upon the flagrant delesion and imposition
practised upon the Irish,' and repelling the impu.
Winn of the Right. Hon. Gentleman upon the
character of the Irish Gentry, asserting that he
had himself sever let his land by CANT, or turned
out an old tenant, the Right Hon. Baronet pro-
ceeded to animadvert upon the 'enaction and op-
pression to which the Irish poor were subject, in
consequence of .the Tythes, and particularly the
mode of their collection. The. Clergy of the Es-
tablisiled Church were themselves so- sensible of
the nature of this grievance, that he knew them
to be in general anxious for the establishment of a
commutation. So much in fact did they feel upon
the subject, that if they were not restrained
by an apprehension "of giving offence to their
superiors in Authority, many of them, with
whom he was acquaiiited, wouldhain been emong
the first to petition that House (orb Commutation.
Tythes -were notoriously the perpetual cause of
discontents in Ireland. It was in evidence before
the Irish Government that the insurrection which
took place in the county of Sligo in the year 1806,
was actually occasioutd by the conduct cif Tythe
'Proctors. According to that evidence, the systeM
of these harpies was to collect the parishoners at a
public-house, and after they became intoiticated
at their own expense, to get their signatures ke
agreements, of which the poor ignorant pettple,
were insensible of the meaning. Yet such agree.
menus were enforced through the agency of tome
pettifogging Attorney, who, of course, shared
in the Proctor's spoil. The Right Honourable
Baronet concluded with an animated exhortation
to the House to take this grievons case into their
deliberate consideration, and to enter lute the In.
qeiry proposed.
Mr. L. FOSTER rhonght would be useless
and dangerous to go into the inquiry, unless there
was a probability Of the result of tha inquiry be...
Mg to produce something practicableto satisfy the
expectationi which would be excited by it.. One-
third Of the tythis of Ireland were in thUhands of
lay appropriators, and was a species of property
as mach the subject of marriage aettleaesne as say

-._.; :It-1
-I",*
„ - •

did not wish to touch the present
the church.—He would make it
of any arrangement that was to be
Tythes, though abolished, would nol
income derived from a different source

" • on• solir "Nee'

~-sa

, •'

•111. OW"'
other. .He conceived that the beet way of reliei-
jag the poor from tote pressure they now felt,
would be to restore under ;owe modifications the
tythes of agisttaent ; aaa he thought the greatest
enemies of Ireland were the Members of that Irish
House of Commas, take voted those to be ene-
mies of their country that required the tythes of
agistment: The consequence of exempting the
pasture land of Ireland from tythes was, that the
Clergy were obliged to look exclusively to what
was cultivated for their subsistence ; and while the
Nobleman's park paid no tythes, the cottager's
potatoe garden was necessarily taxed much higher
than it would otherwise be.
Mr. HERBERT conceived that the mode by
which tysites were levied in Ireland acted as a pee.
mium to idleness, and a tax upon industry. He
thought the idea of the Right lion. Gent. (Mr.W.
Pule), about the principle of commutation, was
unjust in the extreme. To say that an actual
tenth of the produce, or one.fifth of the value of
all the lands should be secured to about 1500
persons, for discharging duties that were not very
burdensome, was a principle which could neither
in justice or in reason be maintained.
Mr. M. FITZGERA LD said, that he had been
particularly directed by the county he represented
(Kerry) to support this inquiry. In that county,
tythes, and the abuses in levying them, were
almost the only causes of dissatisfaction or tu-
mult. For tbo last 35 years, an expectation had
been held out every year, of a reform in the sys.
tem of levying tythes, and yet nothing had hither-
to been done. The inequality of the system of
tythes in Ireland was most oppressive. The
rich grazier paid nothing, but the poor cot-
tager was obliged to pay heavily.—.eHe had heard
from a Gentleman in Norfolk, that five shillings an
acre on. *heat was considered a high corn pensa-
(ion fur Tythes in th.t county. He could as-
sure the House, that in Ireland it was sometimes
carried as far as two guineas an acre on wheat,
and 365. an acre on potatoes. He thought that
it was impossible that an inquiry should not sug-
gest some method of improving the present sys.
tem. It was evidently most unjust that the rich
man's park should pay nothing, and that the poor
man's potatoe garden should pay 365. an nem:
it would bo trifling with the feelings of the peo-
ple of Ireland to tell them now the same story
that they had been told for thirty-five years past.
lit would be recollected that the Tythus of Ire-
land went only to the support of the Clergy of tho
Church of England, whtch was only one.tenth part
of the population of Ireland ; and that in many pa.l
rialtos, where the oppression of the tythe;proctors.
was the greatest, the Clergyinen never resided, an*
no manuer of duty was done. It would be quite'
unreasonable for the Clergy of any country, and'
much more for the Clergy of a persuasion that wet'
but a tenth of the population of the country, tWI
claim for their own use an absolute tenth of the-1
produce of the Country. It was known, that
when tythes were first instituted, one.fonrth of
them went to the Bishop, another to the ?.pairs of
the Church, another to the poor, sad. it war only
the remainder that went to the parochial Clergy.'
At present the Bishop was paid out.of other funds,
and nothing Was given from the Tythes, either to
the repair of the parish church or to the
poor. It would, therefore, be monstrous for the
Clergy to insist upon an absolute tenth of
the value of the land for their own benefit; and
it would be infinitely overpaying thorn for any
services that they can- be supposed to render.
Though satisfied as to the oppression of Tythes
in Ireland, he was yet ready to agree, that the
Church was entitled to a full equivalent for the
•Tythes, in care of a commutation. He wished the
Clergy to derive their income from some other
source than the miseries of the people; that the
mode or providing for them should not make them
and their religion objects of ettecration in the men-
fry. Udder that impression, he should vote fur the
motion of his lion. Friend.. Bat ho had another
motive. He believed his Majesty's Ministers
would be glad that they had the army in Nettie!
embarked. • In the event of that country falling
into the hands of the French, `the situation of
Ireland would be rendered more exposed to attack.
He should call, therefore, upon his Majesty's
Ministers, not to oppose an Inquiry which might
lead to the removal of an existing grievance.
Mr. W. FITZGERALD was disposed to vote
for the motion, but not on the arguments of his
Hon. Friend-oho had just sat down. He was as
anxious as any Hon. Member for a fair, candid,
and legitimate inquiry. He could never admit that
the Clergy, in the event of commutation, should
sot be entitled to more than the amount of the net
proceeds of their present Weenie-
Mr. GRATTAN said, that he had for a con.
siderable time entertained the same opinion, upon
the oppressive nature of levying_ tribes in Ire.
land, and that he had not in all that time beirtr
one argument that could prevail on him to alter
that opinion. He was more and more convinced
of the propriety, and of -the necessity, and of
the practicabilityof a commutation ; it was not
the commutation that was impracticable, but it
was the strict levy of the Tythe that was so. The
Irish Clergy ought not to attempt to levy a tenth
of Irish produce, because the measure itself was an
impossibility; they could not do it, and what was
more, they would destroy themselvesbyattempting
to do it ; the attempt would involve their destritc.
tion as a corporation. But were it practicable—
would it be expedient? Let tlineho,
tenth of the national wealth, and wine
the country or the corporation gain ?
may become too rich for devotion,
comparison will naturallygrow out of
of the established clergy, and the pu
tolerated ; the one will have its °di's

other will have its praise, the odium and
being both popular, may be equally
but not on that account the less mischiev,

,try was able to provide for their Estplt
gy, unless Gentlemen would say that
to provide for the moderation or the

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