The Statesman.
London, England, 1818-03-06 00:00:00

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•. Mickel He refereed tneipeet, what eses,
deabt, aite and inettument for M#. Nadia hnd
Co. of Masseluillter•prElintri3—.Sach was the iivy
who Ts; arreeted nit pose dayvend discharged tII neat
by the Magistrates of Manchester.—(//earj hvor !).
—According to one of the Reports from tbe•Secret
Committee or the Hods* 6f total, ionie-Pilriseass
employed by Ministers tolletreellt di4turbetierr, had
themselves beat guilty ad seeking that disturbance.
Bat whet, he would ask, had Ministers done is coop
sequence of this detection? Had any of those Judas-
.
oratory agents been taken into custody, or had any
proceedings whatever .been token &Octet time ?
Wasont ibis be Wald ask*. fair subject for ingeiry ?
--(Load cries 4 Hear, hear, hear !)—He did not
mean to my that Ministers themselves had elicited to
insurrection, or promoted the fabrication of plots ;
bet there was notoriously a large forgery for this per.
pose at Bolton; under the auspices of Fletcher,
the Magistrate, who, after such facts as bad appear-
ed against bias, ought not to be allowed for one
moment to remain in the Commission›— [neer,
hear I]—As to the observation that the information
upon which his Hon. Friend bad spoken, proceeded
from polluted sources,be must say, that loch an Oto-
serration tome with a very its giece from those who,
after suspending the liberties of their countrymen,
'busing the power-with which they were invested,
aocipacking a Committee to tower them from blame,
bad notoriously derived their information from the
basest Omen to bee found its any *suite of society.
Yet upon such information they had thought proper
to confound rebellious riots with the commission of
High Treason. He, however, knew this information
to be false; and the intelligence upon which his know-
ledge rested, with respect to Oliver especially, came
from piteous who were by no meanthimplicated in any
conspiracy ; this indeed he pledged himself to show,
if the House wooed go into the proposed enquiry.—
He wool/aim, like the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), bring forth
dead ewe's tales to 'attain attacks upon the living, but he
would mildew living mad inefragable teetimory in Nippon of
every allegation which he had advanced. But why should Minis-
ten resist empslev W ebereoeld justify their piston P Did not
such resistance betray their coavictina that their conduce bad
bees NM as they would be ashamed or atrai.l to exhibit in the
face of day I It was Mows that even in one of the Committees
appointed upon the motion of the Noble lord a proposition to
have Oliver esangned as to his coodt.n, while acting seder the
auspices of Lord Sidesuatkwas decidedly negatived tame; thg
lallseare. of Ministers. Again, what become of the secodd
letter et Lord Fitswilliam, whin; was audiology kept back; '
while a former letter from that Nobleman was adduced in that
House, asswer a 'seepage is debate by the Night Hoonerable
Gentleman at the bead of the Based of Gametal. --(Hear. Ned)
This seated letter from lard Fitwilliam was in figt a recants-
timid the opisiest expressed is a Ginner letter, which opiates
that Habitat= bad found to be erroneous upon farther enquiry.
From the sapprmsion then of this letter, as well as from usher
facts, it was evident that Nielsen desired to prevent Podia-
mgatand the Public from !savage clear view of their proceed-
ddlbedkarooly .nee information as suited their purpose.
The duttemer at °War was Negate quite notorious. But the
N.l.h lard (Ceatiereugto) had mid, that oo one was imprisossed
epos Voath of that person. He would, however, desire to
know, apse Woe Ober evidence were the persons arrested I.
eonsejneace ed Ike Meeting at Tisorehill Lees ? For that Meet-
ing*** actually collected through the contrivance of Oliver
Mansell. For it was Oliver who seat Crabtree to Hind:iglus=
to invite penons to that Meeting—while he himself called upon
a penes at Dewsbury to attend it. Nay, Oliver wrote a note,
request* aa interview, to a person who was quite ai respect-
aide as say Megabit of that Home, from whom be (Mr. hid
the information. The interview took place, and he (Mr. B.)
was Meted that the whole the language of Oliver to this
wham m
he earnestly aborted to attend the Meeting at
HI Lees,_ wits derogatory to the character of that House,
Levidlet he old. this IND NUNN yammer mold be sawed—
speediOctal forte must he employed, and that a crash would
ly 'take place. This lineage revolted the penile alluded
is, who is consequence diasiseed Oliver with indignation. Hot
who were tbex that revealed Mr. Parker, of She Meld, from
proseestiog his investigating; as to Oliver, before any dis-
terbasee bed brokia stet l What were the reason for this re-
lentless P The e bad gone far enough to ascertain that
the adoebiefis in bet selaisbourbood were twin to Oliver. The
fact, Indeed, was, as h appeared from a review of the proceed-
imp in Yorkshire,7 Nottinghamshire. and Derbyshire, that as
some as this Oliver. the schwa wkdged agent of Ministers, was
n idsclinsta, all was quiet. Would that House. Meg, consult the
principles of justice, the opinion of the country, or tile main-
teasoce of its own character. if it refused to enquire into the
conduct of such Weimer, and such agents?

Mr. B. BATHURST observed, that the Hon.
Gentleman opposite hod nut named his witnesses,
whose iouocence be vouched for; and be (Mr. B.)
had a right to suppose that they were implicated as
well as the people who had been taken op. How
could they have got their information ?—Must they
not have been present at the Meetings of the disaf-
fected persons? and, therefore, they most have had
some share hi the deliberations. The Honourable
Gentleman's information, then, must come from Spies
of his own, who were just as much deserving of
credit as the Spies of Government. It was the duty of
Government to avail themselves of the information
given by Spies. Here Mr. B. quoted the opinion of
Chief Justice Holt, in the time of King William,
and of Chief Justic► Eyre, io 1794, to show that it
mar always necessary for the safety of a State to
employ Spiess and that the evidence of such men
was admissible in Courts of Justice. With regard to
,Oliver, Government had no reason to suppose that
be had ever forfeited his character ass respectable
(Bear, hcar q—Goverumeat might have
acted on the information of one witness in taking
men up, when they could not be tried for treason
without the evidence of two witnesses. On the
whole, he maintained there was oo ground for the
present motion.

Mr. W. SMITH bed taken the earliest opportunity
et informing tbe Secret Committee of last 'ear that
he bad the must respectable witnesses, four in num.
ber, to prove thit this main witness (Oliver) had for
years practised the greatest possible frauds upon his
employer, who bad asserted that no man was more
tabulated to produce the effects he had created from
his plausibility, and a total neglect of truth. Of
these parties, one was a partner in trade of a well-
known and .respectable Baronet in this House—the
other the son of a most respectable Solicitor—the
other was Oliver's.employer, who bad been cheated
by him in the most iniquitous manner, but who had
bad tbe imbecility to abandon tour several indictments
preferred.against him (Oliver) in the year 1812. The
award of the referee in favour of this man, whose
name was Bestial, by profession a builder, in London,
amounted to 3001. and the damages alleged were laid
during a period of ten years, as amounting to 3001.
'Bering the easinination of evidence before the ruse.
re*, Restall had informed him that Oliver brought
forward his own daughter, to swear, to facts which
were afterwards admitted te.boklapimsds Not into
bar mouth by her father:
Mr. BATHURST esplaissed, that t 1 whole trans•
-
actions arose upon accounts oetstauding,between
them for 10 years, during ,which be bad dope Wittiness
Ur-Resta/1 at a very competent 'eatery. ThiTalt
was, that the arbitrator did condemn this Mr. Rost.

% 1 "

at, to, parab * coos' of the. liege •Ingieemeihrperb-
(erred -bgi •Wm oplost• Me. ONverc-sed gist :Me
Oliter
,all444:gblitrd ohnlPlP.t* Ow* a
bond he held of Restalrs.r.eliefrifitlfr9.—
lilt Okra it at • "-.
tt ea. N rig restertfeaintiten 'wtile id he
read. fir uhi'perpase of stinwirt4 that hem* Mistake
mast have arises in the view takeiibl IMMO Gentlemen
is the soiree of the debate. •t: •• •

The motion was Wordier& bead by the
SPEAKER.
Mr. TIERNEY took this tpaestietrin be one et
the greatest possible iosportence.to Om latent inteseste
of the country. It was not whether. Informers—it
was Dot whether Spies ought ever to be einployed by
Government ; bat whether Spies dad Informers, such
as were described in the Reports of both Hosieri of
Parliament, elitist to be tolerated-by that Ilesse;--
It had been said that they bad essaleavoored to shirt
the motion so u to obtain the co-operation of the
Member for Brusher (Mr. Wilberforce). With re-
spect to that Hoe. Gentleman's co-operation, from
his esperience of his conduct in that House, he would
say that it could only be purchased sr a great eaPenre•
If the belief of receiving support from his had no
other foundation than some esseal expressions of a
general nature which might have fallen from him, at
the end of the chace they woeld be sore to lose him.
The Hoe. Mover had bees attacked, beetling he had
osonfined himself to Manchester; and another non.
Gentleman behind him had bees attacked because he
had confined himself to Yorkshire. With respect to
Manchester, all that the Boroughreeve of Manchester
and his associates could say against the '25 or 26 per-
sons, of most Irreproachable ch. ratter, whom his Hon.
Friend had brought forward was,, that they formed
but. small properties of the population of Mance,-
ter. With respect to Lomas, it was said that ho wasa
principal—he was, however, most unacsosetably
discharged the day after he was taken up. The
nest person, Dewherst,was said not to beio existence;
but it was not unusual for perilous of his profession
to trade ender false colours—the real name of this
person, it seems, was Michael Hall. Now no man
had denied that a perm* of the name of Michael
Hall had been employed as a Spy. As to the whirr I
person, of the name of Warrington or Waddington,
be bad been altogether passed • over. Why thee,l
with respect;to Maedisistm the case stood on this
ground—r2i persOes eirmed to .give evidence as to
the troth of the facts stated in the Reports of the
Committees of both Homes, and to pet the House
in a way to ascertain these facts. Would the House
say that they woeld not receive such evidence?
With respect to Mitchell and some of the indieldeals
chose ',ideate it was proposed to take respecting
the conduct of Oliver, be would my they weren't
men of so bad character that they could be con.
soldered as tainted in a Court of Justice. Supposing
them all to base the sense character as the Govern-
ment witness Castles, who was thought a fit wittresi
to take away the lives of five persons, only his eel:
dente .could riet lie corroborated. Now, with re-
spect to the other person, Schein, be had sera the
letter alluded to by his lieu. Friend from a Magis-
trate In the seigkbeashosid who spoke in 'slyest or
Schoks, not hoes random report, but from what had
fallen within his own knowledge. Now when the
testimony of Mitchell was coupled with that of
Scholes, it was good, to the extent at least of bili.W.
ing the nature of the transactions in which Oliver
was engaged. He appealed to the principles laid
down•eith respect to evidence by Chief Juliet', Eyre
sod Holt. It was often necessary to have recourse
to pitmenes whom of oar owe accord we should net
select. It was impossible to suppose that transac-
tious like there in which Oliver nes engaged, could
be altogether brought to light by persons in that
walk of life to which the House, happily for them.
selves, belonged. it was perfectly competent to
these men to give !testimony as to the facts in plea-
ties, nueely, that Spies and Informers bad perverted
the haters of their agency, and done the very mischief
which they were instituted to prevent.—[Hear, hear!]
It walnut his object, when complaining of the growth
of Spies in the country, to attack this or that Secre-
tary of State;--he would say, however, that a system
had grown op, and was now in full maturity, which
was destructive to the character and injurious to the
best interests of the country'. To take, for instance,,
the case of the Assessed Taxes—it spas notorious that
Spies were healed in every corner of-tbi country—
that Surveyors of Taxes employed Hannon, whose
bushiest' it was to get into all livery stables and halls,
that they might become acquainted wi it every man's
Supposing one of these runners were to per,
suede a person that it was pettedly safe when he bad
five horses 'entire only four, and that this was
quite a common prastrte—sed that after giving this
advice he informed against any one who was one&
wised enough to take It, end shared the half of the
penalty on the conviction—if sock a case were stated
to the HoesseWould there be one dissentient voice if
a proposal for enquiry was made? Seib was
however precisely the case with respect to Oliver.—
It might be necessary to employ Spies for the sake at
obtaining information from them, bat if Oa* Spivs
went fartberokedmedeavoured to entrap men into the
commingles of irises, then it became necessary to
proceed assess Site Spies themselves. Bet how, It.
might be said, were they to proceed ? They were
told that it was perfectly notorious that a great masa
of disallectiendoxisted in the North of England, in a
variety of populous places-that it was perfectly
know. that the rising would dewed on the. London
Delegated. Now what was the facts There were no
Loadou Delegates. Oliver said, he woods, go ender the
mask of a London Delegate. He wished to knew ekes
tber Lord S. knew he was to assume that charac-
ter? Now he was sot a Leedom Delegate, how-
ever mock be bad been bespattered with praise ;,II
Wag emissary to beer ia mind that be gamma 'this
disguise not to giveinfornsatioe of the danger, !sot
to create ft.—[?iew'', heat /]
Kr. WILBFIKKORCE djaaprpeed of (be pro-
posed correirjr!,,
fiord A. limit iaTot4 entered, into re eccoent
the eenduct A( the Spy. Itichasoodk in Scolland.•
M.altuPs replied whim die tease
, , •
.; a,,(0..•
abiiderfuji
'li'the Nodes • . s r etlith .11)
Aphis( it - .
Adjourned at Half past Twelve o'Clock.