The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-05-22 00:00:00

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The Ilonouratie Gentleman thee proposed to reduce
this sum.
Mr. WARD said, when this subject bad been be-
fore discussed in the House, it had heel generally
agreed that frmn the galore of the artillery force, i.
was better to discharge gunners and keep the officers,
whom it respired the greater expense of time as well
as money to form. In this opinion the Committee of
Finance concurred. The saving would not he so
great by the reduction as the Honourable Gentleman
imagined, as the Colonel Commandants by the regu-
lations of the service retired on full pay, only without
staff allowance.
Mr. HUME was of opinion that the artillery could not
now be kept in practice, and therefore, considering it
only a question of expense, thought the reduction be
had recommended might he effected.
Sir H. 11ARD1NOE said, the slowness of promotion,
which wss the vice of the artillery service e
Amend dme, woul be in-
creased by the measure proposed in hnt.
The slowness of promotion was such that it was found
in the Peninsular War, that the superior officers bad not
bodily strength to velure a campaignooo, so tha
s,t the-whole
of the Artillery, 7,000 men, and 6, horse was com-
manded by Lieutemint-Colonel Dixon, then and now a
Captain in the Artillery. Lientesant-Colonel Sir G.
Wood commanded the Artillery at Waterloo, and was
the oldest officer in the field, though only a Lieuteuaut-
Colonel.
Mr. BENNET said, one proposal of his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Hume), viz. the dividing of the pluralities enjoyed
by the superior officers, would do away with the nos-
thief of the slow promotion.
Mr. WARD said, that if the Artillery in the new Colo-
nies and Garrisons were deducted, the presents umber
of Artillerymen would not exceed those iu 1792
y 'sore
than 462, of which 167 were officers.
Mr. 1111:81F. said, he did nut propose to reduce men,
but officers.
The Committee divided—For the Amendment 16 ;
against it 43--Majority 27.
The Resolution was agreed to, as was one of 3012/.
for Horse Artillery, and one of 17,5191. for Artillery
Drivers.
After a few words between Mr. Hums and Mr. WARD,
Mr. WARD then proposed the grant of 6,7001. for the
maintenance of the Medical Establishment of the Ord-
nance.
Mr. HUME objected to the increased expense for the
Medical Establi.lonent. They had et
anguiented
ninefold since 1792. lie complained of the salaries of
certain individuals, and especially
.of the office of the
Director-General, who enjoyed an income of 1,095/.
Mr. N. WARD,
said, in 1792, there was no Medical
Establishment connected with the Ordnance that de-
served so to be called. It was then the custom to have
recourse to practitioners in various parts of time country.
This occasionsl a considerable expense, net mere in
pounds, shillings, and pence, but in efficiency. tie then
explained and defended the various arrangements of the
establishment.
Mr. HUME renewed his objections to the grant, and
moved as all amendment, that 3,772/. should be taken
trove the grant proposed.
Sir U. BURGH eomplained of the amount of the re-
duction proposed by the Hun tientleuiss. If a reduc-
tion of 3,0001. were made from 6,0001• be did not know
hew they should get on at all.
Sir .1:1'011KE raid they might get rid of the Direc-
tor-General.
The Committee divided—For the Amendment 18 ;
Against it 47—Majority V.
A sum of 6,610/.penwse s
oft
the pr C oivilposed
Officers, to he gProfessorantedrs, for
defraying the ex
SO Masters of the Royal Military tollege at Woolwich.
Mr. 11UNty. cousplaiimed that the Establishment of
Cadets was notch too numerous, as out of every 150 ad-
mitted, only thirty could be beriefitted by commission,.
and thus each Officer in the service educated at this
College, would cost the country 1,7501. He was aware
that the very best arrangements relative to the bestow-
ing coussitis,ioes upon these Cadets, had been ma by
the Mager-eieueral ; arrangements which oughtde to be
taken as aa example b the army. But there could be
only nine a y
ppointed in a year, whereas thirty-seven were
annually dismissed. lie considered this to be holding
out expectatons never to bee eaelised, and creating an
nneeessaryi expense. Beforb moved an amendment
to this reselution, he wished to bear what explanation
would he given upon this point.
Sir U. BURGH explained the regulations respecting
the appointment of the Cadets. Time utmost economy
was 0-burst.' in the establishment, and the nu
thme er-
bers
had already been reduced from 10 to 150. By
rangeinents which had been made by the blaster-Gene-
ral, they would be still farther reduced in a few years
to 100.
Mr. HUNIE repeated the objections he bad before
urged against the extent of the establishment t
one,
haand
moved an amendment for reducing the granlf
substitutin if the sum of 3.3l'shat 1. for 6,610/.
had been
Mr. WARD stated, t every means
used to facilitate the appointment of Cadets to com-
missions. As by the present regulations, Lieutenants
were returned to full pay, the Cadets succeeded the*
on the half vay, and thus double the number of com-
missions were available to theta, than previous h. this
arrangement.
Mr. 11CM E was still of opinion lb .t there were
more young men educate I than could possibly come
iuto the service of the country, and the expense was
consequently a waste of the public money. He should
therefore press his amendment.
After a few other observations from Mr. Wane,
Mr. BIRPIAL. Sir 11. HARDING, Sir U. HURON,
Hems, anii MT. 0. BSIMILT. the C ORMittee d6ivided.
For the Ansecdment, 20 ;-Against it, 3 r--Ma-
jority in favour of the original Resolution, 43.
Time next Resolution was a grant of 14361. to be
cfees
paid to the Exhequer and to the TTO*Sary fet
on the amount of the Ordnance Estimates of they
.
Mr. BERNAL asked for some isplimatims
lug the fees se be thus provided for. ..I ..
IM
C • ' t
Mr. WARD said a few words across the table,
were not audible in the Gallery.
Sir U. LONG observed, that, as the law now
em 1
selmitl
the persons who claimed these fees possessed th by
vested right.
Sir H. PARN ELL made some observation relative to
the fees in the Audit Office.
The CHANCELIDR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the fires in question were very different from the fees
payable upon the credit accounts.
11 Sir J. NEWPORT said, that all fees ought to be ex-
' tinguithed as soon as possible.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained.
Mr. HUMS wished to ask when the returns foilwhieh
he had moved, relating to this subject, were likely to be
before the House. He was quite convince& that the
*otter the whole system of fees was done away, and the
for the despalitcihf officers
inslPliediandtfollerbillsbeeltabli lirlilenitei r-
aters. . .
Sir C. LONO said the Hos. Gent. were emsfillYstrg
two things that were distinctly differentl namely, he

4.39nkee.l:sex4riter.4ol'eself..
fees upon passing accounts in the Exchequer, and f.• S
u"Snirilsis."PinAglinNwEna, explained.—The Resolution wee
then agreed to.
the Theal:en:et
oßft-.4
Eoxl;u7timiorn4Loasrlefosrfear
ttreaontrdonfa
Mr. HUME.—" Is this vote for the w
dietaries, including expenses of repairs abroad, the pow.
der mills, and every thing?"
Mr. WARD.—" It is."
Mr. HUME should oppose the vote on se teen
grounds, that he did not know where to begin. The
lion. Member first complained of the arrangesesn ~,
the Colonial Estimates on the papers, and then attarke4
the sum under the bead of repairs, which, he said, ,„,,i
applied to other purposes. He wished to ask, utn.th,7
any proposals heel been made to tiovernment to frrre
troops across the Tilbury Fort passage ?—ite bedi,;.
stood that such proposals had been made, aid that
saving of six or 7tlol. a year would serene to the saw:
if they had been accepted. With respect tothefta;‘,;
Mills at Feversham and Waltham Matey, this was ti,„
third year in which he had called the attention 0 0,,
Parliament to those extravagant estahlsliments. TIM,
was powder enough in store to last for the nest 25
years, therefore there could be no necessity for keepior
,hp a single mill. At present they were supported at ,
monstrous expenditure. All the officers connected wits
them lived en prince. This mode of living was *time
completely taken. After some observations upon the
manner in which old stores were disposed oi, and spso
the pay of the train department, the lion. Member taw
esothatitrbed his
eeoteionnielgilittiotoo bofe
orpepoduts•iedogaittl.east one-thirCasa
Mr. WARD, in explanation, stated that the ass
fier repairs were not fur new works but fur works sea.
time begun ; also that the present expenses fort!.
Colonies were less than in 1792. He thought ala
that the present arrrangement of the estimates, whirr
the items were under separate heads, was better tha3
the plan proposed by the Honourable Member. He
I observed, that be was not surprised that the Her.
Member wished the removal of the powder establi,l,-
went of Feversham, Lc., as that idea had tittered
his (Mr. Ward's) imagination three years age;
but, on his going down to Fevershatu, he fesei,,
upon exansinstion, that the expense of maws'
would be actually greater than that fur keeping their
in their present state for several years. He defeoikal
the Field Train on lire ground of its being loader the
command of an old officer of eighty, who had perform.
e'l meritorious services.
Sir W. CONCILEVE entered into a detailed stilt.
unlit of the origin and history of the Powder Ran►
liniments, and stated that at the beginning of the kat.
rican war, the powder was furnished by contrast%
which was a more expensive and uncertain modelle
that at present pursued, and which Oovertitmest•
(enabled to act upon, by having enlarged the establi.
scents at Feversham, and purchased the winks atilt
thaw, which rendered them independent of the wa
let
tractors. The consequence, he contended, to
' great and important saving to the public.
Mr. BERNAL observed that the Hommrable Clerk
of the Ordnance bad not answered all the objeetien
oldie Hon. Member Or. Hume), sad argued thst
;h stood more la Nod of
tries
ge ruelamanuts beiger
mutely irregular and confused. He object, home-
lith Departmentan t h e Ord n awnheiec
into general details.
ral item' as extravagant, but thought it masieself

__

to enter
81r. WARD explained.
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Sir W. Court,
Mr. D. (Albert, and Mr. Bennet, the Counnietse d-
Tided as follows
For the Resolution..... 911
Against it ...................... of
Majority.. • ..... --48
The nest Resolution was 2132/. for services ors.
vided for in the vote for 1320. The Resoluties r
agreed to.
1 he next was 111,8371. for the Ordnance
lreland.—Mr. HUME moved a reduction
an Amendment.
M. WARD opposed It.
Sir H. PARNELL supported it.
After a few words from Mr. WARD.

divided,
For the Amendment ..........
Against it ..... .Majority.. • •
The original Resolution was then pay
Several other Resolutions were then
tied, after which the Chairman reported ,
obtained leave to sit again on Wednesday,
having resumed,
Mr. ARBUTHNOT gave notice
bring forward the Army Estraordinaries
IRISH REVENUE.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT asked if
ties of his Majesty's Government
missionen to collect the revenue in
not object to Government appointit
elopers. He thought if they were
much good might be done. but if
proper persons, the greatest
wwn
el.:it
el dirld: CI arise.H tNCIL L 0 R of the E'.
that It was his inteotion to Ave fee ~
palnetneot of the comtvittee alluded to by two.
Member, at the same time, due care wield leteir°
IM select proper persons for the purposee.a roods
The other orders of the day were bra
and the House adjourned at one o'clock.
Me
v '"""..---z----".."".".--
'AUCTION OF AN A Lossiss.trs tog gall
Wano....—Yesterday a Wardniote trio beldst die 4
Church of ht. Nicholas Vole Abbey, for the __,,i
an Alderman for the Ward of Queenbitae, te Misr.
SITIVat. DOINOitiC, resigned.—Mr. Adolphe.
..
Holland attended as Counsel in and
of Mt. V eif
attah:npa P edge
nUMeLodret.t As:aletontlnvlrt
aaSr gr
de:re! eete;!inci o'clock
c.i
nWkMarshals, ee n
Lorddro
p)ei irtilirda:::allis
,i.
arataciat I i 1 t a.
wi
Rouse proposed Mr. enables, who was sesame-
~;i
Mr. Caller, of Quoenhithe. Mr. Dirty (hillrictri
Mr. Cape). who was seconded bother. Co* OA
I ir
valuesr C. C. : I:o:fahey
fir.a9
et the 1
of
itltt.diesi dne
:at
andt sr .
icn.dii
tni
:ne:Es
de_Otrossi
Flail
.07.
wiecil
00:0
nation, sod a show of hands taken, whic.h...74700
amidst loot cheering to be io Woo in. aa.....1.10
• bl
by a consii table ma,j,ority.
_.A poll. Wlta_Lle."""-oeot .
I, half of Mr. Gapel, i hetpolling. Pelling• 117;:rigii
slowly, as each vote underwent the . _ ,10
and effeminate of reel were h•td slirifieThir
tested vote* st great leogth. A.iter: 0:10. frell
ling the numbers were, lor Alf. v
4'...1114411ty 1.

ttestnat. --
taste 'mice al
on of 1,5301. at
the Casio
to 3
9i
put and eaniet
en put la
.ted proereso
sdni. Ths s"
that be woe
larks N Fi**
it was do'
to aPiolltki
o ik
I relaaa.
Ling seek Ott*
properir
the Cos
'test in
:XCHNI.IIIII
St 11.1,

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