The Statesman.
London, England, 1818-03-10 00:00:00

effect of

lion to intend them? • 'Piet House hed• es right to'
--itionivtitts-hiien-Of:;the'legal meatus of redress. -
Mr..I4ItHMANTLII • *said he rose in-support of
the comisteucy of his-,chaneter, to express his en.
ennwressee in fhb, measure of indemnity.—
' [Criei of flea!, hear! from the Oppa44on.l—He
had supported the Suspeosion of the Helms Corpos
last Sesser, on a full conviction of its necessity to
frustrate the objects of the,different conspiracies ;,and
be in his. conscience believed, that to it the coustry
was indebted for its return to the tranquillity it now
enjoyed. The lion. Member took a review of the
prosecutions at Derby, and contended, that all that
transpired justified the conduct of those who voted
for the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus. He coo-
sidered the House bound by its adoption of that law
to grant indemnity. He well recollected, that a
Right Hottourable Friend of his, the late Mr. Pon-
:pooh?, whose loss they all regretted, had gone into
titt Secret Committee of the last Session rather indis.
posed. le believe• the existence of the dangets.that
Then threatened the public security. He, however,
game oat of the Committee fully impressed with the
suture and Went of the danger, and though he dif.
Tared as to the means of correcting it, yet he was
folly alive to the necessity of meeting it with messures
of a strong character. The Petitions that had been
presented, complaining of the abuse of the powers
by his Majesty's Government, were wholly disproved.
—Parliament were bound, therefore, to follow spits
own acts, by indemnifying those who ctrried them
Flo esecution.

Into e_
Lord NUGENT, after observing he had voted
lest Session against the Suspension Act, still con.
tended that there 'sister! grounds, quite independent
of that measure, to indeenee his vote on the ques.
tion of Indemnity. But he should have thought that
those who supported the Act of Suspension were, of
all men, particularly bound, indeed.it was a right,
almost a citify in them to enquire bow those strong
powers with which they armed Ministers were by
them discharged. They owed it to themselves, by a
full and impartial enquiry, to ascertain whether cir.
eumstances had established the statements of the Mi.
Idiom on which the Legislature acted ; they owed it
to Ministers themselves to compel them to meet the
grave and heavy charges made whist them for al-
leged abuse in the execution of the law. His lion.
Friend (Mr. Fremantle) had quoted tbe opinion of
a Gentleman whose loss They both equally deplored,
the late Mr. Ponsnuby. It was, indeed, tree, that
'3lr. Ponsotahy after the esaniiniation of the Secret
Committee last Session, had been induced to believe lie
the existence of these conspiracies. But what was
his vote in that [Louse? He voted against the See.
pension Act, believiierthat the ordinary power of the
law wee rally sufficient to counteract and punish all
the criminal designs of these conspirators ; and were
that regretted character new amongst them, be (Lord
N.) knew hies to be too consistent not to oppose the
proposed measure of Indemnity. Like his float.
Friend (Mr. Fremantle), he (Lord Nugent) might.
take credit for his consistency. Ile had opposed the
Suspension Act, because he felt it to be wholly en.,
called for by circumstances, calculated to inflame
the public discontent, and to foment the very evils
which its supporters professed to remedy. He op.
posed it also, because it placed arbitrary power in as
Administration whose motives he distrusted, and to
whose policy he was not disposed to subscribe. Frees
motives of a similar nature now, be resisted their ap.
plication for indemnity. Let us not, in the name of
God, now that the country was again restored to the
operation of the law, thrust out the People of Epp,
land from their legal realediem. Let us not by ars.
ceding to such a measure take from Government the
duty of its vindication, and from Parliament the
means of ascertaining how the powers given to Mi-
nisters have been exercised. When the jails of
the kingdom. base been crowded with prisoners
detained under arbitrary warrants—when the table
of Parliament has been loaded with their corn
plaints of cruelty and oppression, was it not to.
larch to ask of Parliament, not only to preclude,
all meditation within its walls, but to deprive the
sufferers of all legal remedies in the Courts of Law ?
If these men were guilty, why were they not tried?
If they were innocent why were they aggrieved ?
Let the Ministers of the country estahlkh the neces-
sity of their conduct ; to this they were bound, not
only by a regard to their own• character, but to the
character of high rniodeal People, over whose interetu
they superintended. We heard much of the trialx at
Des by, how, he would ask. did these proceedings bass
upon the pceseut geed-ion? The persons implicated
in these disturbances were arrested in the ordinary
authority of the law; and yet, when the Parliament
were discussing the conduct of Ministers in the me.
cite of extraorilivary peers, the very head and hoot
of their defence is founded on occurrences that have
no connection whatever with that exercise. All that
bad been said in favour of an Indemnity, had been
urged on the _ground of the Report of the ,Secret
Committee. The House ought not to delegate their
powers to any Committee. .But, independent of this
objection, the Committee in question was appointed
by Ministers—and the evidence was presented by
Ministers; end on a Report from a Commiitee so
appointed, and judging on such evidence, did they
found their ileitis for a Bill of iudemnity. Were the
forms and analogies of Justice ever so insulted as in
this case? lle hoped Parliament would not sanction
this mockery of a trial. The Honourable and Learned
Gentleman who opened the debate, had laid great
stress on the danger which would arise from the
cocnmenication of the sources of the information
on which his Majesty's Ministers acted. Did
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman mesa
information derived from Alegistrates-:-informatioe
derived from Informers—or information derived
from Spies?--If he meant the two former, he trusted
there was still law and good feeling enough in this
country to protect those two classes in the exercise
of their duty, in exposing whatever threatened dam.
ger to the State or to individuals. Those two classes
therefore were secure. It was then entirely for thel
benefit of the other class—namely., that of Spies,;
that they were now calling on Parliament to grant
an indemnity.—(l/cor, hear!)—With respect to
Oliver, the Right stun. the Chancellor of the Duchy!
of Lancaster (Mr. 13. ilithurst) had told them more
than once that he had something to state with respell
to Oliver's sonnection with the Derby plot, which
would materially alter the opinion of the [louse
iih regard to hlm—that would entirely do away the-

men executed at Derby. From this declaration
et the Right illevioarahle Gentleetan,"'he wa4 hod
to espeet something very strong from ; but
the House had in teelity heard *otitis( front tits
at all calculated •te do away the effect of, the
words utteredby this man, at a time when he w.e
in a .situation far beyond the power of any metee
bribe or intimidation..L-(Hear; hear, hear!)7-
Nottliog surety that such.as avowed wretch as Oliver
e6old atter ought to weigh against such a dectairatibeu
The Right Hon. Gentlemae had said that certain per-
sons held improper conversations with the iw
the condemned cells, and endeelouted to indeeace
them to make such a declarstioa. Bei did be believe
that the High Sheriff and Uuder Sheriff' of Derby
would be so- negligent in the discharge of • theie defy
as to allow any clandestine communication of tea •
nature to be carried on ? Stire he was, that if this
was allowed in Derby, it was a solitary instance le
this country. But he would pat it to the House, if
on the known principles of bunion nature it wits poesi•
hie that these men could make soch a declaration Ostler
any improper.infinence? For whose benefit'were they.
to make it ? Supposing the statement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman to be correct, this declaration was
made fer the benefit of those very persons by whose
badetample they were brought to their unfortunate
end. They had therefore had no evidence to dis-
connect Oliver with the transactions at Derby. For
their own. sakes, Government, if they wereiunocent,
ought not to ask for any Bill of Indemnity. He did
not wish to censure rashly the conduct of. any man,
or class of men ; bat if as a Jury.nan, he were asked
to judge of the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers,by
the Report of their Committee, laying his hand on
his heart, he would pronounce them guilty.--(lfear,
hear!)
The' House then divided—

For the Motion
ApiM it

. 190
- 61

Majority in favour of the first reading I 2
While strangers were excluded the Bill was read a
first time, and as we re-entered the Gallery, it was
moved that the Bill be read a second time to-morrow.
Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that several notices
of considerable importance stood for to-morrow,
which should induce his Learned Friend not to
press the second reading of this Bill, uuless, indeed,
it were the iutention of Ministers shat the measure
should be carried by mere numbers. This, he thought,
was at least not prudent, particularly at this moment,
when they were all in expectation of being stow sent
to the country, when, as it was understood, that
House should be dissolved in lets days or a fort.
night.-e-p laugh, and hear, hear! from the
Ministerial side of the house.]—It vies itufpro-
per.to tell the Veolle tout a ms-as ire of such import-
ance as the present was to be deetileil, Dot by reason
and argument, hut that every thitsc was to he carried
by the dead eloquence of sotes ; that every speciea
of redress was to be denied to the People, without
the Government condescending to tell their reasons
for such conduct. For not is ithstinding that the At.
torney•Generel bad stated ill his reasons in supp!.rt
of the measure, yet it might have been expected,
when those reasons had been answered by strong
and sound arguments, that some reply should have
been given by Miuisters, in explanation of their mea-
sure. They knew, however, that they had. 190
Members, who, right or wrong, • would supitort
them—and therefore did they let the question go to
the vote, and now they were resolved to press their
triumph as far as possible. They knew they were
right—(Hear, hear ! from the Treasury Benches)
—not right in point of season, in point cat argument,
but right in their opinions respecting the strength of
their numbers.—(/leer, hebrl from the Omosstion.)
--,The Worthy Alderman (we presume Sir William
Curtis) whose good humour was so conspicuous on
all occasions, could not tell how he was right in re-
spect of the measure ; but he knew he was right in
believing himself on the strong side of the douse,
and in a majority. If his Learned Friend pressed
the second reading fora time when, after hav;iig
tlis-
cussed other .subjects of importance. it would be
physically impossible for the House to devote a pro.
per degree of attention to this great measure, he
should take advantage of the forties appointed by the
wisdom of their ancestors to protect themselves end
the country from being overwhelmed by the weight
of numbers.
Lord CASTLEREAGH asked, whether the House
had ever beard a more unprovoked attack than that
it had just witnes-cd ? The Learned Gentleman
had complained that Milli:ter, had not spoken in
the debate, but if the Learned Member had thought
proper to have exerted himself as much in the de.
bate as after it—if he had emerged from the hiding
place, from the retirement he seemed lately to here
assumed; he might probably have induced Mini-
stersta foci° their reserve on that occasion. The
Heisourable Member could employ himself only in
Imagining elections, on which he he had given some
information quite new to him, and, he believed,
to the House.—(Cries of hear, hear, hear !)
He had never witnessed a greater waste of powder
than had been fired on this point. The Honourable
Member had threatened what he would do on some
future occasion,. iit case his Learned Friend should
press the second reading of this Bill ; but it was time
enough to hold ;his threatening language whets the
opportunity arrived for considering the propriety of
enforcing the second reading. He hoped, however,
that his Learned Friend would not be distracted by
this awakened effort. If the business already ap.
pointed (or to-morrow night, should he so protracted as
to render the second reading of this Bill inconvenient,'
it was not a difficult matter its such case to post-
pone it.
Mr. BROUGHAM was unwilling to interrupt the
good humour that seemed to prevail on the other
side of the House, but ho trusted he shoed be
permitted to speak a few words, when noticed by
the Noble Lord in so personal a manner. The
Noble Lord had spoken of the retirement into %Weis
he had fallen, alluding probably to his not sitting its
his usual place, and to his not ()lying spokes on
many questions this Session. Where he might ciiaiice
to sit was a matter of little coos (pence ; but as the
other charge implied it dereliction of his duty, he
begged leave to assure the Howse, in perfect sin-
cerity, that if he had not spoken on some questions,
it was.because any using he could have said bad beets
others; and..on
already much better said by