The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-04-07 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN,

eteding should be deemed necessary, the House was
more likely to come to a fair and temperate judgment
en an abstract question at to the regular motion of
proceeding on the Committee, than it could do by in-
volving itself in questions of a personal nature.
After the Speaker sat down, the subject dropped
without any observation.
A message from the Lords requested that Sir M.
Lope; might be allowed to give evidence before their
Lordships, on the Grampounil Disfranchisement Bill.
The House replied that they would send an answer
by messengers of their own.
Mr. HEATHCOTE presented a petition front Hum-
berstone, in Lincolnshire, praying for retrenchment
and economy. The Honourable Member expressed
his entire concurreuce in the prayer of the Petition,
and regretted that so farourable an opportunity for
telieving the burthens of the people as the repeal
of the Malt Tax, had been lately suffered to pass hi.
Sir R. HERON presented a Petition nowt nu-
merously and respectably signed, complaining of
Agricultural Distress, and praying for a reduction of
taxation, from the Owners and Occupiers of Land, of
Stamford, in Lincolnshire.
Sir li. CLERK presented a Petition from the
Sawyers of Edinburgh, against the importation of
Foreign sawed Timber.
Mr. MABERLY moved fur an Account of Clerks
and other Persons admitted to Offices in Civil De-
p4rtments, since January 1, 1816, with an Account
of •their Salaries, in Great Britain and Ireland.
The motion was agreed to after a few words from
the Inaoce Lee& of the EXcHEQUER. on whose motion
an Account was ordered of the Salaries discontinued
within the same period.
Several Petitions were presented front the various
Clerks of the Courts of Justice in Ireland, praying
for coutpentiation for the loss of Fees.
The Irish Coroner's Bill was read a second time, to
be committed on Monday.
The Church Briefs Bill was read a second time,
after a few words front Mr. Curwee, Mr. Monck, and
Mr. Littleton.
• The Irish Treason Trial Bill was read a third time.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW proposed a clause which
seas agreed to, to permit the same mode of trial and
of evidence, as in cases of murder, in all cases of
treasnn where any direct attempt is made on the life
or safety of the King.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS.
Mr. DAVIES GILBERT, in rising to move the
second reading of the Metropolis Roads' Bill, went
ioto a history of the modes of defraying the expence
of the maintenance of roads, which had prevailed in
this and other countries. Ile approved of the system
ei supporting the roads by tolls on them, as well as
of the management by trusts, but he observed, that
the vice into which this system fell, was the minute
subdivision, by which economy in procuring the ma-
terials. and the employment of scientific aid was
rendered impracticable. He urged the benefits which
would arise front the present Rill, which would remedy
Loess inconveniences, while it retained the advantages
of the Toll and Trost system. The Hon. Member
ceacliaded with steering the second reading of the Bill.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL.spoke against the measure,
which lie conceived quite unnecessary from the im-
proved state sit eiSlat the several roads were in the
vicinity of the aletropolis. lie therefote moved an
Amendment, that the Bill should be read a second
time on that date six months.
Mr. DENISON seconded the Amendment, depre-
cating any attempt to cast a reflection upon those at
present invested with the several trusts in the neigh-
bourhood of the Metropolis, by whom the roads were
kept in the best possible state.
Mr. CURWEN spoke on the same side.
Mr. F. LEWIS supported the original motion, ad-
mitting that the roads about London were kept in a
good condition, but observing that this was done at al
great and unnecessary expence, with no attention, in-'
deed, whatever to considerations of economy.
Mr. CALCRAFT argued against the Bill, which
appeared to hitu to involve a Bill of indictment against
the Oentlenten connected with the several trusts about
London, by whom the roads under their care were no-
toriously kept in a much better state than those in
any other part of the kingdom. Yet it was proposed
to set aside the system upon which these Gentlemen
acted, In order to make room for the establishment of
the theory of the lion. Member for Iludinyu. It was
said, that there was no intention in this case to cast
any slur upon those Trustees, and that it was not so
thought by themselves, but if so, how came it that 30
out of 32 Trustees alluded to, had presented Petitions
against the Bill ?
Mr. H. SUMNER was ready to vote for the second
readirig if the Bill, with the understanding, that if
the Hon. Gentleman should propose to refer it to a
Committee of the whole House, he would move as an
aiitentiMent, that it be referred to a Select Committee.
After' few words from Mr. DENNISON, the
: House proceeded to divide, and the numbers were—
For the motion 83—against it 16—majority for these-
cond resoling 67.
Upon-our re-admission to the gallery, we found Mr.
D. GILBERT on his legs, recommending a reference
of the Bill to a Committee of the whole House.
Mr...H. SUMNER moved that the Bill be referred
to a Select Committee ; and after a short conversation
between Sir B. Knatchbull, Mr. Calcraft, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. D. Gilbert acceded
to the amendment.
The question for referring the Bill to a Select Com-
tuittee was accordingly put and agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the House, en its rising, adjourn to Monday
next.—Agreed se.
Lord MILTON postponed his motion on Foreign
Wool until after the recess.
SUPPLY.
Upon the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER,Ihat the House do now resolve itself
into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. URBEVEY rose to oppose the motion. The
course whist' he was about to take might not. he said,
be very *gettable to the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site, or to the House, but he felt it necessary. in the
discharge of his public duty. to oppose the modes
far going into a Committee of Supply. Instead of go-
ing on. he thought it was the duty of dm House tie
retries its steps. There bad been supplies enough
voted.and what gaol had been hitherto effected ? Not-
withstanding all tie Faith's. from all parts of the
kingdom, amifilalaieg of lie roast distresses, ant

praying for the strictest economical reform, the goose
had still gout on voting away millions of money. had
all the labours of his Honourable Friend the Member
for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) had not produced the dimi-
nution of one single farthing in the public expendi-
tnre.—rniler these circumstances, nothing should in-
duce him, as far as his vote or influence in that House
went, to go into a Committee of Supply. The Mem-
bers of that House had been galled the trustees of the
people, hut they differed from all other trustees, for
they themselves live,' upon the property of the people.
—(llew, hear.) When the affairs of a private Gen-
tleman were deranged, the first thing liis trustees did
was to rut off all needless expenses, and to discharge
all the useless dependents and hangers-on. But here
' the trustees of the people were themselves the useless
servants and hangers-on. lie had often thought that as
the people of England found it was of no use to petition
that House, it would he a good thing, and certianly an
entertaining one, to see them rept esented by delegates at
the Der of the House.' What would be the natural !en-
rage of delegates so sent to assert the rights of the
people ? They would say, " we are come here to
talk to von, and we are bold to say, that we entertain
ashrewd soispil ion that you make a very good thing of
us.—(Laughter). We are aware that there- are song
places to the amount of I:.0,0110/. a year, which yon
enjoy, and which you will never consent to forego to
relieve the distresses of the people. Th's may be a
very pleasant arrangement for you, but it is no laugh-
ing matter for us." Such was the language which
the delegates of the people would naturally use. Sup-
posing the people to be so represented, he should like
to have seen their delegates in the House during the
last ten days; when his Hen. Friend the Member for
Essex obtained leave, about a fortnightago, to bring in
a Bill for the repeal of the Malt Tax, this was consider-
ed a great trumpli—it was hailed as the begin-
ing of better times. But he should never forget.
and the people of England would never forget, the lan-
guage of the Noble Lord, who was manager of the
Trustees. "Du not triumph too soon," said the Noble
Manager, "do not halloo before you are out of the
wood."—(Hear, hear.)—The Noble Lord, however,
had made good his threat, •he had brought up the
trustees of the people from all parts of. the country,
and his Honourable Friend's majority of 25 was con-
verted into a majority of Sri against Lim. And this
was not all, for a great Northern Grandee was made
the victim of his attempt to assist his suffering country-
me, and had actually complained in that House
that he bad lost 8001. a year for having had
the hardihood to vote for the repeal of an obnoxious
tax.—(Hear, hear.)—This was a flagrant breach of
the privileges of that House; yet the Honourable
Members for York and Montgomery, those champions
of privilege, were silent upon that subject. Let al
printer commit a trifling error, and the House was
sure to hear enuu.th of the attack upon their privileges";
but when a gross and unconstitutional attack upon
their privileges was made through the influence of the
Crown, not a word was to be said upon the subject-we
(Hear, hear.)—This was really enough to make them
sick of privileges, and still more sick of its chassipiooe.
—(Hear, hear.)—The Honourable Member concluded
by moving the following Ileiolution:—
" That during the present Session of Parliament, ;
titions have been presented to this Howe froth e -
part of this kingdom, and from every diecription of i
population, containing. statements of distress hitherto
unheard of in this nation, amid uniformly demanding,
as one species of relief to their sufferings, the strictest
possible economy in the expenditure of the public
money; that the statements so made, have in every in-
stance been fully ronfirmed by the local information of
every Member of this House, who have preseuted such
petitions; and vet, notwithstanding with uiliver;al ap-
plications for relief, the different estimates for the pub
lic service for the year have hitherto been proceeds d in,
and millions of money voted fur such purposes, without
any the least possible reduction whatever by this House,
although repeated efforts have been made to effect the
same. That this House entertains the strongest possi-
ble opinion, that this marked indifference of the Repre-
sentative Body to the sufferings of its constituents, is
mainly attributable to the following fart, viz.:—That a
very numerous body of the Members of this :louse de-
rive for themselves, their families, connexions, and de-
pendents, large pecuniary provisions from the taxes of
the people; and as such provisions for tl.e most part are
made either for offices altogether libel or grossly

,
overpaid, and therefore the tittest objects for immediate
extinction or reduction, so the holders or disposers
of them in this House have a direct personal interest
in resisting every species of economical Reform what-
soever; that in addition to this great permanent bar
to all economical Reform, the (louse hits lately wit-
nessed, with the greatest indignation, the influence of
the Crown displayed by its Ministers in this House in
a manner the twist arbitrary, and with the express and
avowed object of interfering with its Members in the,
discharge of their duty to their Constituents; the Rae',
of Fife, who lately held the office of one of the Lords
of the Bedchamber to his Majesty, having recently de-
clared in his place in this House. as one of its Members,
that be had been dismissed front his office as Lord of
the Bedchamber to his Majesty, in consequence of
having voted in this House in favour of a Bill td repeal
a Tax upon Malt.
" That, under all these circumstances, this House
is of opinion it will better consult its own honour`
and the interest of the public by immediately inquiring
into the facts before mentioned, than in going any
longer into Committees of Stipply to vote away the
money of the people without the slightest possible
prospect of relief to the country."
Mr. HOISHOCSE rose to second the motion. No-
thing could be n.ore constitutional than the coarse
pursued by Lis lion. Friend. It was not necessaryi
to go back for precedents so far as the reign of queen.
Elisabeth, for in the early part of the reign of Charles
the First, before the struggles between that Monarch
and the Parliament, Sir T. IVentworth, afterward, Lord
Strafford, moved a Resolution in that House, that
ply and grievances should go hand in band. Th. 47.
1-
viatial who adopted this sentiment was a man of tlefirst
rank and talent in the country, and not liable to the im-
putation of being a heated enthusiast. In the Parlia-
ment, called the Pension Parliament, the attention of
the House was called to what was then considered an
extraordinary fact, that 2,400,000/. were voted to 24
hours, tont that House was grown familiar with initaaces
in which mach larger sums were voted away in 24
hours. lie did not state this from any wish to 4igge-
rate the grievances of which the people bad reation to
complain, and be begged to call the attention of the
House to a declaration of Lord Grenville in did other
House of Parliament in 1816, " that if Parliament con-
tinued to support the keeping up of a large standing
army, and to lavish the public money as' they did, be
would not trouble himself to take a part in debates which
be could regard as nothing less than a farce." In the
time of the Pension Parliament 24 Members rem posted
as individeels who received pensions from the Crown.:-
Now he (Mr. Hobbouse) on a recent division coasted

himself nt3 fewer than forty-seven pensioners in a very
?mall majority. Such was the difference in this respect
between the present Parliament and the notes:ions Pen-
shot Parliouseht, the measures of which were denounced
by Andress* Marvel as calculated to leave neither liberty
nor property in the country. As to the dismissal of:
Lord Fife from Isis office of Cord of the Bedchamber, in
consequence of the vote which he gave in that House. it
was a siteaseire taken indirect opposition to the spirit of
the Constitution, and in violation of the Hill of Rights,
which declared that freedom of speech in debates or pro-
ceedings its Parliament ought not to be impeached or
questioned. If the speech of a Member of that Howse
could not be questioned, still less ought his yore 10 be
made the subject of animadiersion ; and if the Ministers
of the Crown could not get up in their places, and deny
the charge, he hail no hesitation in saying, that they were
liable to impeachment for their conduct. The Hon.
Member then proceeded to observe upon the opersidon
which the influence of the Crown had in that House,
which hail been growing up for many reigns, and
threatened to overlay all public spirit, anti utterly de-
stroy the efficiency of Parliament as the organ of the
national will. On this subject, he quoted a passage from
a famous pamphlet on hush-money, published in the
reign of William 111., which complained of the manner
in which the House was officered, the effect produced
upon its suffrages by emolument and expectancy, the de-
ceptions practised upon honest mistaken country Gentle-
men, and other consequences of influence which enabled
the King to baffle any Bill, quash any complaint of
grievance, and carry any measure that the Administra-
tion might think expedient. It stated that 290,000/. had
been employed for these purposes, to influence the votes
of Members by gratuities to themselves and relatives, but
what was the case taw? Why 150,1100/. a-year was de-
voted to the same purpose, and raised upon the people
to be divided among those who were to vote against the
people's interests; it was impossible that such distribu-
tion of the public money should not have a bias on the
minds of those who enjoyed it. He would not detain
the House any longer; he did not make these observa-
tions with a view of throwing any impediment in the
way of the business before them, but to remind the
House of what their duties were, anti what the country
expected from them.—(Hear, hear).
The Gallery was then cleared for a division, but in
a few minutes strangers were admitted ; we toned
that no division hail taken place; and
Mr. CALCII A 1:"I' was on Isis legs, alluding to the
stateuteet made in the House by Lord Fife, with re-
spect to his removal from office. He then proceeded
to say, that he agreed with most parts of the Resolu-
tion of his lion. Friend. It could not be doubted that
in the present Session of Parliament, the petitions of
the people had been totally disregarded.—(Hear.)--
It was equally true that nothing like economy had
been attended to in the estimates. It could not be
denied either, that estahl'sliments were kept up much
larger than circumstances could justify. He likewise
agreed, that the influence of the Crown in that House
was too mighty and too powerful, to allow any real
effect to the representation of the people. But be could
not agree with that part of the proposition which went
in a sweeping way to deprecate the representation of tbe
executive offices of Governnient in the House. Yet, he
could not withhold his assent to the proposition in
general, anti he hoped the Noble Lord opposite would
give some explanation relative to the statement made
by Lord Fife with respect to his removal.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he did not think'
be would he doing his duty f he allowed himself,
so he led into a discussion on a motion which had a
reference to all that had been done in the Session.-
1
His Lordship proceed at some length to ridicule the
conduct of the Honourable Member ; and with respect
to the declaration made by Lord Fife, he denied that
be was honnd to give any explanation. In ibis dis-
missal the Crown had only exerted its undoubted
prerogative. With respect to the vote given by the
Noble herd (Fife), it was, after the declaration made
by Ministers, a vote calculated to drive them out of
office, and surely it could not be expected that the Mi-
nisters of the Crown and the officers of the State were
to have different views, and pull in' opposite ways.
particularly on a question of such vital consequence as
one that affected the public credit, and which, had it
been carried, would have been nothing less than a vir-
tual dismitsal of administration.
Nr. CAM:RAPT explained.
Mr. TIERVEY objected to the motion, on the
ground that he was taken unprepared. He was not
in the lionise when the statement of Lord Fife was
made, and as it was differently represented, he could
form no distinct idea on the subject. As to the power
of dismissing the officers of the Household, it was an
undoubted prerogative of the Crown. After some
more observations of the same kind, the Right Hon.
Gentleman stated, that although he concurred In
most of the component parts of the proposition of the
Hon. Gentleman, yet, from the sudden manner in which
the resolution had been brought down to the House,
and the consequent want of preparation on Isis part to
meet it, he guest withhold his support if it were pressed
to a division.
,Mr. BENNET supported the Resolution, and de-
precated the power and extent of the influence of the
Crown in that House.
Lord A. HAMILTON followed, and said, that what
he a nderstood with respect to the statement made by Lord
fife was, sot drat the giving of his vote against the
Malt Tax was the ground of that dismissal, but mere-
that his impression was so ; he therefore could not
agree to a resolution, one part of which he
.eonceived
not to be consistent with the fact. There was only
one other observation which he wished to make. With-
out meaning any disrespect to Lord Fife's successor,
be should like to ask what degree of credit and cha-
racter would attach to that successor's votes in that
Mouse? The Noble Lord concluded by again urging
ibe Howe to have recourse, in the resent embar-
rassed state of the country. to every possible reduc-
tion that could be made in the public expenditure. and
mare especially in the military part of it.
Mr. CREEVEY in explanation said, that in the
Resolution he had merely stated the fact, that Lord
Fife had declared in Ms place, that he was dismissed
from his office for the vote he had given.
The House then divided—fur Mr. Crtevey's motion
36—Against it 120—Majority. 84.
On one re-admission to the liallery, we found
Mr. HUNK on his legs, expressing his regret at
the division that bad taken place among the Hon.
Oentlemeo near him, on the late question. He re-
gretted to see Hon. Gentlemen, who agreed on a maim
Act, dififee oa the words in which that fact was do-
mitred. Notwithstanding all that bad pained, how-
ever. %was about to anbmit to the House a Motion
from IA he challenged any Hon. Member to with-
bold hie somint, who regarded his etre character, and
tits interest of his country. Adverdsg to the civil