The Statesman.
London, England, 1819-03-18 00:00:00

THE STATESMAS

served by ell other Pahlic Boards, of giving an op.
pomposity of fair and general competition? The
Honourable Gentleman had stated that that &par.
tare was in concurrence with the suggestions of a
nonce Committee ; but that was me reason for the
adoption of a coerce In directly conlnry to all former
usage. The sale might be very proper, if the stores
wire directed to he sold; bet why did it take place
in that clandestine wanner? It was well knows
that this purchaser, Mr. Samuels, was the brother-1
in.law of Mr. Rothschild, who was also known to
have large money dealings with Government : mad
that Mr. Samuels, at different Irises, had entered
into very large esstracis with the Board of Ordnance;
bet he wonted to know, w►y the Board bad depa►ted
from that sound and wholesome principle to which
he had before adverted—that of fair and open public
competition ? And what bad been the resell of their
proceeding? Why, that the (vestry bad not gaiaed
so large a sew for the signs by this prints dealing,
as they would ban dose by inviting that cooped-
tins which it was their duty to have invited. He
Meet, therefore, suppose some reason existed for the
!aping back of this contract. Tb. Honourable
Gentleman had said that the articles sold were of a
perishable nature; why, among them he observed
500 tons of brass cannon These, he apprehended,
were not of a perishable gelidity ! Then were wahine
inconsiderable in vain nor in quantity; and he
should like to knew what part they formed of the
no of 440,0001. If they had been sold for less than
50,0001., ►e would say that they had not been sold
for as much as Gentlemen, whom he himself knew,
were disposed to have offered for them. Those par.
ties urneld have given considerably more!—(fleer,
hear!)—He should therefore move, as so ■mend-
meat to the motion of his Honourable Friend, the
worthy Alderman, shat the dates and prices at which
the a I stores were sold shoehl be also specified.
The Speaker proceeded to pet the °signal gesso
lion, and the amendment, when
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
rose. 114 weds several observations which were is-
motility in the gallery : we collected, however, that
the proposed amendment incensed his objection to
the original motion. The contract was still plug ots,
and it was but jest and proper ba bare a scrupulous
reined for the interest of him with whom the con-
. tract had been made.

Mr. DARING thought that Meade of these slates I i
was open to every species of contract which could em. ,
citiejeolossy er distrust; oo the present occasion he
could not help thinking, that no sufficient reason had I
been assigned for departing from Chet principle of in.
wiling public competition, which every Public Beard
nasally friend itself bound to observe. Why it had '
not been so observed here, had not appeared. Ile
certainly knew little of the natant of the contract in
question ; it was impossible that he should : but at
the same time, be could not conceive what harm
could possibly accrue to the Gentleman who had coo-
traded, by making public the term of his -emitted.
Possibly the Hon. Gentleman opposite had stated the
diferrat articles of the sale; bet it was impossible
for Gentlemen to know from that statement what
quantity of gunpowder, or any other given article,
was sold : and certainly, from this cis common alone,
be should have been disposed to suspect the fairness
of the contract, but from the well-known character
of the iudivideals by whom it was conducted no the
pert . f Government. Although he entertained no
doubt that this, if enquired into, would prove to be
I, (pita correct and honest, yet he thought, that if the
Hoes* did ant require to be furnished with the peril-
! ciders and details of it, they would by their fo..sear-
i mice establish a dangerous precedent ; such cons
tracts being, in his opinion, always proper matters of
enquiry : he objected to the present one, as being a
a sort of transaction in the dark, with which Par.
Bement was net acquainted. He toasted, therefore,
, that the Hon. Gentleman who had moved the amend-
ment intended to support it.—[l/ter!]
1 Mr. BROUGHAM thought, that es this enquiry
was not likely to rest rt its present stage, bet was
very likely to lead to future and very important dis.
cession, it might be better to postpone it to a future
. opportunity, after the holydays. He would take the
I liberty of suggesting to his Honourable Friend the
i espediency of withdrawing his ameedureet for the
prevent.
Mr. R. WARD defended the Board of Ordnance
1 from the attack made spoil It. If, in speaking of the
! mil system, the Honourable Gentleman had sub.
Whited the word " combinatioa" for the word
"competition,' it would have been a he truth.
He instanced various eases, In which this combination
bad proved highly injurious to the public service, and
in which private contracts were found to be much
mote beneficial. ID au offer made some time ago
by competition, foe the purchase of a quantity
of brass cannon, a bossy, to *kith the Honourable
Gentleman was related, offered the smallest sum
of all the competitors, namely, 595. a cwt. while
others offered 755. If Government had tics-
ed with that offer, he was persuaded nut
atword of the transaction would have been heard
from the lion. Gentleman. As to the observation
of another Hoe. Gentleman, that the bargain in
question had been made is the dark, be defied any
one to show that it was not in all its Wirings a pre-
per transaction. In support of his argument, the
line. Gentleman entered into a variety of statements
with respect to the sale of gunpowder, ropes, Atm
and coecluded by eapressing his conviction, that the
I ' Beard of Ordeancre had most anxiously canted
' themselves te discharge their duty.
' Mr. GRENVELL disclaimed having bees in-
t Ileeoced by any personal motives in the part which
I be ban taken in the discussion, and observed, that ilso
1 instance quoted by the Hoo. Gentleman of the com-
petition for the purchase of the caisson, was rather •
whimsical pr0..1 of the existence of any combiontiew
i on the subject ? He was convinced that money was
. lost to the Public by not adhering to the principle of
I competition.
. Mr. WARD explained.
, Mr. D. GILBERT observed, that many ewes
P 1 might rain in which a sale by private contract would
, be mere advantageous to the Public than an open
I sale.

Mr. 11URSTdeclared, that in his opioion the
re-
cedt exertions of tha Iluard of Ordnance did them
the glegpt honour.
Mr.Wtossfoll uffethig to withdraw his aotemfraent
if the Zhu. Gruticm2u timid ttleo situ to

the original motion„ and Mr. Ward sr:isiettler; in
t►at arrangrmen., tt:e smeadmint was accordingly
wit►drawn ; and after • few words from Mr. Karina
and Mr. Forbes, the former of whom disclaimed
t►rowin` soy impetstion on t►e conduct of the Board
of Ordnance, the motion was seen! to.

On the motion of Mr. R. WARD, a copy wrs
ordered to be laid before the Hem of the Memorial
of the Gunpowder Merchants to the Lords the
Trusser►, dated Noe. 16, 1818, sad the ob aaaaa limas
of the Board of Ordnance on the same.