The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-05-03 00:00:00

VIE STATESMAN

not old residents of the city of Dablint—l rea4 don't
know.
Does the witness Inferthat bonitos Mr. Moore It bireat to
an Insurance Cowpony, that he is sot eonnected With the
city of Dublin ?—I do not draw any sack Inference:
By Mr. S. RICE.—Can the witness say by a reference to
the panel of Janua, 1993, if there were an Roman Ca-
tholics on that parynel f—l believe there were n y ot, lan not
sure.

Can witness state of Ms own knowledge whether on for-
mer panels there were any ROUND Catholicst—lreally have
not examined the panels.
Can you state from your recollection whether there were
any or not 2-1 don't knew the persuasion of the Gentlemen
on the panel.
By Mr. BROWNLOW.—are the two Atkinsons'
names io the original indictment sent up to the Grand
Jury?—Their names were in it.
Can the witness say if the Atkinsons are summoned
to the Bar of the House ?—I saw their names in the sum-
mons.

You have stated an unusual circumstance in the panel
of 1823; have von made any previous communication to
that effect and to whom ?—The only communication I
made was on the 15th of April.
You never made any communication previous to that,
are you q..'te certain ?—Yes.
By Mr. PLUNKE'rf .—Can the witness recollect bar-
in" sent six panels for 1823 to any person ?—1 sent six
panels to the house of the Attorney-General for Ireland,
on the Ist of Jan. 1823.

That being the day before the Urand Jury sat?—Yes.
Were you sent for by the Formai of the Oraod Jury?
—Yes.

Witness will state whether be was sent to the Grand
Jury, why or bow ?—The Court sent me to inquire If the
Jury required advice in point of law.
Is it usual for the Court to do so ?—lt is not.
Do you recollect any former occasion of being sent up
to the Grand Jury?—No, it is general the Grand Jury
send down bills.

(From the horrid manner in which the latter part of
this examination was carried on, and the low toile in
which the answers of the witness were given. we find
much difficulty in giving an accurate report.)
By Mr. BROOM:ltal.—Were you in your present
office in 1811?-1 was.

Do you know of any bill or bills being presented to
the Grand Jury by Sir Edward Littlebales on a charge
of bribery ?-1 do.
Do you know what became of them ?—They were ig-
nored.
In 1811 ?—Yes.
Have you seen any other proceedings in the same
charge ?—Yes ; 1 have seen ea-officio informations on the
same charge.
Immediately after the bills were ignored ?—Yes.
What way the result?—Judgment went against the
party by default, for want of a plea.
Are there not two Grand Juries in Dublin, which you
distinguish as the Term and the Commission Grand
Juries ?—Yes ; and a third, which is called the Sessioss
Jury.
Stite what sort of bills are sent before the Commission
Grand Jury ?—All fines and a part of the criminal busi-
ness.

The Commission Grand Jury then deal with felons and
misdemeanors ?—Yes.

The Session Grand Jury, what do they deal in ?—in
mirror criminal charges,. they also present some money.
So that the Sessions Grand Jury not only deal in civil
but in criminal business?—Yes.

What do the Term linos! Jury do ?—They present
money for particular purposes.
Now we see we do not understand a word of all this ;
this is Irish, not English.—Laughter. Now tell me
what you mean ?—All money to be raised on the citi-
zens is presented by the Term (]rand Jury.
In what way are the raiz• ns assessed ; is it on pro-
perty?—Ministers money is assessed—(A laugh.)
You see we get deeper into ignorance. For what pur-
poses is the money raised ?-I.cor a variety of purposes.
Name one or two of them?—For genii, roads, bridges,
&c.

Mr. DAWSON rose to order, and moved that the
witness be ordered to withdraw.
The witness withdrew from the bar.
Mr. DAWSON submitted to the Hon. Member whe-
ther the civil powers of the Grand Jury should be thus
examined. The conduct of the Grand Juries is raising
money could not in his opinion elucidate the business
then before the Committee.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that he had a misgiving in
his mind that there was something in the whole state of
Ireland so ticklish, that to ask a single question was
dangerous. lie was not surprised, therefore, that an ig-
norant person wishing to inform himself, or see an inch
before his nose, of the way would find so much difficul-
ty. 'When be sought instead of a little farthing candle,
to have a torch to illumine the road in that inquiry, to
which be could flatter the Committee that they were
likely to find au easy, a abort, or a pleasant termination.
—(Hear, and a laugh.) Now that they were engaged
(GOD be praised!) in an inquiry into the gross and fla-
grant state of Ireland, so far as concerned the admini-
stration of justice in that part of the empire, he thought
that every investigation should be gone into which could
throw any light upon the subject, aad without which he
at least could not stir a step in it. When he heard of
Grand Juries, Term Commission, and Sessions Grand
Juries, could any thing be more natural than to inq9ire
what their separate duties were ? How far any thing
delicate might be elicited by the answer which was not
yet permitted to be given, be could not pretend to say,
but he thought the question important and legitimate.—
(Hear, hear )
Sir G. HILL said that he would not object to any in-
quiry,
or to questions likely to throw any light on the
subject.
Mr. BROUGHAM thought the warm support of the lion.
Baronet was honourable to him, and serviceable to the gars.
tion at issue.

Mr. DAWSON said he could not see the relevancy of the
guidon, but he would not farther oppose its being pat.
Mr. BROUGHAM.—Are we all agreed (a laugh) the wit-
ness may be called to?
The CHAlRMAN.—Serjeant, order in the witness.
Examination resumed by Mr. BROUGHAM.—Yon say
the then Grand Jury presented money for bridges, roads, end
public works. Do tuey do so for others bat those yon have
mentioned ?—For gaols and penitentiaries.
The Term Grand Jury and the Session Grand Jury taken
together, do they vote money fur the salaries of Mileers!—
They do.
What sort of Officers ?—Clerks of the Crowa.—(A laugh).
I am sure they could not be better employed for any other
ode*. For the clerks of the peace, and tows clerks, for the
Sheriffs osess, he. Are say of these odlees appointed
by the Corporation of Dublin t—The town clerk and gaoler.
Are there any other Others, that you recollect, appoint.
ed by the Corporation. who receive their salaries by present-
iment from the Term Grand Jury 2—l am not the officer, and
don't understand.

Do you recollect any other purpose for which 'Roney is le-
vied by the Tens Grand Jury, bat those you hate mention-
ed ?--No.

Nor for the expense of prisoners' clothes, to I—That
woes under the presentments for the gaols. _

Who give the 'contract for them IZ--Tne Grand Jury.
By open bi iding don't understand.
You don't understand that word in Ireland.—(A laugh).—
Is it by open bidding or by private contrast f—l am not the
officer of the Corporation.
Who are the Sheriffs 'drat-11r. Paring and Mr. Lam-
re
p y.
Whim are they appointed ?---In this son*.
Were either of these Sheriffs sleet on the Grand Jury
who igoesed IS. bUisagalast the Handwklesaad Graham!
—Yes. both.
(We bad the greatest difficulty to collect the mom (las
witnesses titrousbout this siankiaation.)

Some discussion now took piece upon a question put by
Mr. DAWSON respecting presentments made to Grand Ju-
ries in Dubai.
Mr. GOULBURN °Waged to any inquiry being entered
into on matters not connected with the immediate question
before the House.
_ _

Mr. S. RICE conceived It wu necessary to put such gees-
lioness should serve to ascertain how the Grand Juries of
Dahlia were constituted.

Sir J. NEWPORT expressed himself of the same opi-
nion.

Mr. DAWSON said Ms object was to know whether the
people of Ireland could have that jostles which they sought
for.

Th. witness was now called in.

Mr. DAWSON—IIas any one in Dublin who pays the
Grand Jury cess, a right to traverse the presentment made
to them 2—l always understood that to be so.
Mr. BROUGHAM—At whose expense is that proceeding
carried on ; that of the public, or the Individual)—At the
person's own expense.
Sir R. HILL put some questions to the witness relative
to his knowledge of the ex-officio information that had been
Bled In the year 1811, after a bill of indictment had been ig-
nored by the Grand Jury. The witness said he had a perfect
knowledge of that transaction ; the indictment was preferred
in April, and the information filed in October, 1811.
Sir J. 11IAC1NTOSII—Did the present Crown Solicitor of
' Ireland act in that capacity in 1811 7—He did.
Mr. G. BENNET—Where did you first see the copy of
the ex-officio information ?—lo the office of Mr. Blake.
Was the Attorney-General then present 2—l think he was.
Mr. BROWN LOW—Who gave you the copy of the In-
formation 2—The Attorney-General.
In answer to another question, the witness said the Clerk
of the Crown in Dublin held his office for lire, and that it
was also to be held by his son for his life.
Mr. GURNEY—I lave the Common Councilmen of Dub-
lin a precedence on the panels 2-1 have known many Grand
Juries where there were none, and some were on others.
The witness was ordered to withdraw.
Sir F. BURDETT observed, that, as no more questions
were to be put to the witness, he thought it would suit the
convenience of the house better to adjourn the examination.
Col. BARRY said the second Sheriff was ready to attend
the House. and he thought it would be better to call him in
and proceed with his examination.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished that this examination might
not be protracted ; but he thought it might he the et ish of
the Sheriffs, against whom an accusation was pending, not
to appear at the bar until the examination of all the other
witnesses was concluded.

Mr. ADERCItOMBY observed that the Sheriff alight as
well be milled if he wished it.

Col. BARRY said that the lion. Gentlemen opposite
might use their own discretion in calling the Sheriff or not.
Ge himself did not want to call him.

Mr. PLUNKETT thought it would be rather inconvenient
to call the Sheriff at that time.
Mr. S. RICE amid the examination of the Sheriffs would
be a very protracted one, and it would be impossible to
bring it to a termination that night.
Mr. GOULBURN thought it would be very inconvenient
to the public service to protract this examination.
Mr. WYNN moved that the Chairman do report pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again. This was agreed to,
and the further proceedings were ordered to be adjourned
till Monday next.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
would suit the convenience of the House, if an order were
made that the examination should not be proceeded in after
nine o'clock, and that it should begin at five.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished that the examination might con-
tinue till ten o'clock on Monday night, and until nine every
subsequent night.
Sir ROBERT HERON then laid the copy of the minutes
of the examination on the table, which were ordered to be
printed.
The Committee on the Irish Tithes Commutation Bill was
put off till Monday.
IRISH INSURRECTION ACT.

Sir N. COLTHURST tap d a wish that the motion
for tie renewal of the Irish Insurrection Act might be
brought forward on as early a day as possib'e.
Mr. GOULIIURN said his wish was to bring it on the
first open day ; and ha would do so next week if some Hon.
Gentleman opposite would postpone his notice.
- - - -

Mr. HUME said be bad a motion to make on the oth in-
stant for a Committee; but if his Majesty's Ministers were
ready to appoint the Committee, which was one for an in-
quiry into the state of Newfoundland, be would give up his
motion.

Mr. GOULBURN assented to this proposition, and then
said he should bring on the business of the Insurrection Act
next Tuesday.
The occasional Freeholders' Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed on the 12th inst.

The Union Duties' Bill was reported, and ordered to be
read a third time on Monday.

IRISH CONSTABLES' BILL.

Mr. GOULBURN brought up the Report on this Bill.
Sir G. HILL, objected to the clause, providing that
warrants of distress ;sailed to Barony Constables should not
be re-issued after they had been returned to the Grand Jury.
He moved the omission of the clause. _ . .

A division took place.—For the clause, ;—Against it,
27 t—Majority ageinst the clause, 13.
The Bill, as amended, was then ordered to be reads third
time on Tuesday next.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
make the affirmation of a Quaker available in criminal
eases. as it bad been hitherto in civil cases.
Adjourned at lialf-past Twelve.