The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-06-05 00:00:00

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•

preserver.
Mr. WARRS bore testimony to the inefficiency of
the present means of preserving lives near sea-ct nets,
and was satisfied that any plan, having fur its object
the improvement of those means, deserved the serious
attention of the Hots*.
. Mr. LUSHINOTON was not prepared to say that
the plan of Mr. Mattison might not be found useful,
particularly on the aorthera coast of Ireland.
Mr. W. SMITH wished that the Petition should be
referred to a Committee.
Sir I. COFFIN said, that if Mr. Mailisen's life-
pmervers were reseal, why were they not seed by
Ate Deal beatings ? He would be satisfied, so long as
they were kept oat of saes of war, for if ones a ship
was in danger sear a lee shore, with those fife-pm
servers it wadi be impossible to keep a inaa en beard.
lIRTUILNS.
Cot. DAVIES sieved ler resins of the ainesst of
goods Naiad es mamas of messes, In arida ports

Wednesday next.
CSINIINAT, TAWS.
Sir J. MACKIN CIISII said that in moving the third
reading of the Bills which he had introduced into the
House, he should offer a few observations relative to
the alterations he hail been induced to make. Ile felt
bound to explain the present condition of the Bill—
the principles upon which it now stood—the nature of
the objections urged againstit—the concessions which
he had already made to SWIM of those objections---and
the reasons why he was determioed that no further
concessions should he granted. Ile took it that by
the second reading of the Bill being carried by so re-
spectable a majority, the House had done that
declaring
the expediency of abating the punishment now indicted
by law for private forgery. And that must be taken
as an expression of its opinion, that in some cases the
severity of that punishment created impunity for
crime, and that its abatement, instead of giving im-
punity, would tend to lessen that crime by giving faci-
lity to its prosecution. This fact was no longer upon
theory, lout it was fully illustrated in practice. The
commutation of capital punishments bad been resorted
to in the cases of fraudulent bankruptcies, and of fe-
lonies committed on bleaching grounds. From the
effect of the former, no argument could at present be
drawn, as it bail only been acted upon for one year,
and could not have yet developed its full operation.
In the latter instance they bad the evidence of the
Proprietors of the Bleaching Yards themselves in fa-
vour of the repeal of the old laws, as they considered
it to be the weans of affording protection to their pro-
perty. The repeal of the two laws he had mentioned
were the most recent instances in which the principles
of the present Bills had been adopted in Parliament.
Small as the progress bad hitherto been in repealing
the most barbarous and cruel laws in our system,'
it was a gratifying reflection to those who were',
anxious to instil a larger portion of humanity, accom-
panied with a wholesome punishment, into our cri-
minal code, to know that that progress had commenced
with the sway of tieorge the Fourth. More had
been accomplished towards attaining that desirable
object in the first year of the present reign, than is
any since the reign of Edward the First. This was a
most auspicious omen ; and he trusted that it would.
lead to consequences which aftef age* would view as
shedding a brighter lustre. and a more lasting honour
upon the name of the Sovereign than other things
which were held in more estimation by
.some eyes at
the present period. The Honourable and Learned
Member then contended that the receptions which
he bad been induced to make from the application of
the Bill ought not to turn against the principle
upon which it was founded. It must not be said that
he distrusted his principle because he could not
grasp all which he desired, but it ought rather to
be taken as confidence in his principle, because it
proved his willingness to try its merits by experi-
ment before its application was made general. He
had no doubt but it would speedily work out all ex-
ceptions. At the same time lie could not say that
be did not regret the necessity of making the excep-
tions; being fully persuaded that the universal
application of his principle might be now adopted
with perfect safety. He was happy enough to in-
troduce it upon a limited scale, by its application
to forgery alone, because he was convinced that it
would soon be seen bow much It was capable of
effecting if applied generally. The first exception
he agreed to make was for the forgery of Bank
of England paper, because it was an injury to the
community, and one to which no private forger
could bear the least resemblance.—(Hear, bear.)—
The one affected the poor. the ignorant, and the neg-
ligent, whilst the other affected only uses of opulence,
and who were almost professionally trained to investi-
pte and detect frauds of such a MUM. The next
exception was with regard to country Banknotes. He
had than &depilated the paper which was the cir-

culatiag currency of the country, from private nega
(liable money papers. He was obliged to draw this
line, and to the exception to go on further, or
to submit to some arbitrary distinction founded upon
mere will and pleasure, and consequently wholly un-
fit to be acted upon in legislating upon such a ques-
tion as that which they were now upon. He contend-
ed that the petition which had just been presented
from the Bankers of the city of London and West-
minster was not, in point of fact a petition against the
Bill. It only deprecated the exception which placed
private Banker's papers upon a different footing in the
eye of the law, with the notes of the Bank of England.
It was not therefore against the principle of the Bill,
but against the exception, the Petitioners prayed that
there might be no difference in the punishment for
public and for private forgery. By one short Bill
he could remove their objections altogether, namely,
the abolishment of the punishment of death. The
supposition of the country Bankers was. that those
who carried on the nefarious practice of forging Bank
of England Notes as a trade, would be induced to
forge upon them if the punishment of death remained
for the one, while it was repealed for the other. But
for private forgeries there could be no apprehensions
of such a nature. The miserable Birmingham ruffian
shut up at his detestable work, could not be supposed
to be acquainted with the hand-writing of eminent
London Bankers. But, however, supposing that he did,
that knowledge would not be enough, because lie must
know the habits and connections of the usual acceptors
and indorsers of documents. Besides, even if lie succeed-
ed in the forgery,how was be to present it for payment ?
How could it be expected that this Birmingham ruf-
fian could get any one to present and pass an acceptance
for three or four thousand pounds, in spite of the vigi-
lance of those whose regular business it was to detect
fraud and irregularity? And if not, was the House
to be called on to protect them wilt the gallows, and
to award the punishment of death to others for their
negligence ?—(llear, hear, hear.) The operations of
the established forgers might have been carried into the
territories of the country Banker, but they could not
touch upon the ground of mercantile negociations.
The other exceptions were for the forgery of Wills and
Marriage Certificates, and Registers. He had ex-
cepted these, because the House of Lords, in a Bill
which passed this House last Session, thought fit to
reject the clauses which appeared to them. He next
came to the application of the Bill to the crime of Ut-
tering ; and here he was resolutely determined to
make no concessions. The number of criminals exe-
cuted for this crime (as appeared by the returns in the
last seven years) was upon an average, 14 in each
year. The numbers charged were seven hundred and
fifty-four, and the amount of convictions three hun-
dred awl ninety-three. With respect to the punish-
ment, he should propose to take away trans-
portation altogether, and to substitute for itten years'
confinement with hard labour. He thought this pu-
nishment might easily be made sufficiently terrible by
increasing the labour and confinement, and even by
enforcing abstinence. Transportation had been proved
to be inefficacious, and it must be relinquished. Be-
fore sitting down he would just observe, that it was
his intention to add a few words to the preamble of the
Bill, which were of no moment, and to strike out the
clause for giving rewards to informers. These would'
be all the amendments be should have to propose.—
(Hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that the con-
cessions which his Hon. and Learned Friend had been
induced to make, considerably increased the objections
which he had previously held to the Bill before that
House. Those concessions formed an acknowledgment
that the punishment of death was necessary to prevent
crime in certain cases.—(No, no.)—It appeared to him
to be an admission that such a punishment was neces-
sary far the protection of a certain description of pro-
perty. lie could not see upon what grounds the ex-
ceptions rested, so as to prevent their striking at the
very principle of the Bill. Fur instance, an exception
was made for transfers of Bank Stock. Now, why
were transfers of South Sea and India Stock not to be
placed upon the same footing ? Again, with regard
to the exceptions for Powers of Attorney for the sale of
Stuck. IVliv was nit the exception to be extended to
the same documents for the receipt of dividends ? His
Hon. and Learned Friend, instead of bringing in a
Bill for the commutation of capital punishment in cases
of forgery as a principal, ought to have called the pre-
sent a measure fur removing that punishment from cer-
tain cases in which lie thought it was too severe.—
(Ilear.)-11e hail gone on admitting exception upon
exception until the principle with which be set out
was entirely lost. fie contended that previous to the
use of the I/. motes, the punishment of death was, and
it is now effectual in preventing private forgeries ; and
his Hon. and Learned Friend had adduced no fact
whatever to prove that it was not so. The lion, and
Learned Gentleman then alluded to the repeal of the
Bleaching and Bankrupt Laws, and argued that there
was as much ground for assuming that it had caused
an increase of crime, as that the prosecutions were not
carried on before, on acconnt o the severity of the
punishment. It was impossible but that the severity of
the criminal laws must appear great iu souse cases, be-
cause it was impossible to place them upon a graduated
scale. In cases of burglary, if a man broke into a house
in the dead (lithe night, and proceeded to offer violence to
its iuliabitants, and to carry away their property, no
one could say or feel that he did not deserve the
highest punishment which the law could inflict. Yet
if a boy was passing a house in the evening, and was
tempted to break a window and take out a watch, that
crime would be the same in the eye of the law; but
who could regard it with the same feelings ? Yet
there could be no scale of punishment provided by the
law ; but at the same time the degree of punishment
could be proportion to the crime by the administrators
of the law. If the capital punishment was provided'
for in such a case, it was well known that it would
not be acted upon, and that knowledge would at least,
have the effect of restraining criminals in the degree
it
of atrocity with which their crimes were accompanied ;
and he did not apprehend that it could for a moment be',
supported. that a man would rather commit a bnrglary
with the chance of death annexed to the cm-tante of
imprisonment, than if the latter punishment were the
greatestet bb
e omissory e s tae manner
ought to
which
htnedd havet.
ht time He
e exceptions
e wasc sameen
op protection conceived
het
ratto that
boieseßenat as
onttritoser'.
His Hoa. and Learned Friend had made use of one at-
gamest fuoaded apes a calculation so follacioas, that be

was really surprised to hear it fall from one of his pew.
erfnl understanding. lie stated that, because only kir
teen each year, upon an average, were executed is:
forgery, there would only be that number to place is
confinement and hard labour. Now the fact wu, tint
if his lion. and Learned Friend's Bill were carried ism
effect, all the persons connected must be consigned to
that punishment '. And these, instead of amoumint
to fourteen annually, would be not less than one Isei.
dretl end eighty. When they even heard complaiasi
of the Penitentiary, Ise knew not bow they were is a
condition to erect Fiestas and establishments all over
the country to carry this plan into effect. Upee the
grounds which he had enumerated, he should opt
the Bill, and be therefore moved as an amendment,
that it he read a thirst time that day six months.
Mr. DENMAN said, that the acute and ingenious
arguments of his Hon. and Learned Friend the Auer.
ney-General, bad failed to remove the compiains
which he firtuly entertained of the benefits to tie
derived from the adoption of the Bill before the
House. lie contended that it was unfair to say
that the supporters of the Bill abandoned its prig.
ciple, because they were compelled by necessity is
snake souse concessions, in order to serve the gem.
ral measure. His lion. and Learned Friend (the At.
tornertieneral) had contended that the spirit of Me
English Laws was to affix the highest possible
punishment to crime. He snug protest against this
doctrine as an imputation upon the Common Law
of England ulsich it did not deserve.—(Hear.)—
The two cases of burglary which his lionourahk
and Learned Friend bad supposed, were not in psiat
of fact the same in the eye of the law, and their
being classed under the same name was one of that
technical absurdities which remained the disgract
of our Criminal Code, and which had grown up
upon the old law of the land without possessing
any thing of its spirit.—(Hear, hear.)—lie also
stated that the certainty of impesonment was pro.
sided by the existing law. This he (Mr. Denman)
snug deny. If it slid so, the Bill of his Homer-
able and Learned Friend would be unnecessary; be-
cause it went to secure that certainty. At present
it could not he certain, for the severity of the ca-
pital punt Irtient prevented many person from pus-
scenting at all. The Bill was not founded apua, or
supported by speculative theories or any wild ao•
firms, hut upon the principle of practical men,
whose evidence had been given before the Con.
mittee. But without that, he should have bete csa-
toenn tae d f
owrimt with the
former
n i
traidad rfersost: ha inc h H tohneo
ulilaobuisee lit,adr
waked.,
his (Mr. F. Buxton), whose experience, and what'll.
usirable talents so well qualified him to judge"'
the expediency of such a measure. Never had is
listened to a speech in that House or in any edit
place which contained more of benevolence se I 1
true practical wisdom; never was the spirit sl
Christianity displayed before any public useably
in the world, with su much of its pure and midis
character. It was not brought forward to prawn
'discord amongst parties—it was not brought fermi
to serve politicul views—it was not brought henna
for the purpose of puffing its own PhaFtedmi parity.
His Honourable Friend proceeded epee the tree
ground of exkoting them to do justice, totem limey,
and to walk humbly with the cowata lathe ei
Mankind.--(ebeers.)--It was with the alma si-
tei seflai
nc tgi .snup ln, n
e took
time opportunitystphlidiesnd Address
ofwebsipchmati.agu
ots
f.
Friend delivered to the House.—(Cheering.)
Mr. DENT objected to some of the details of is

Bill.
Mr. Molar expressed his intention to sewn
the Bill as it at present stood. If that anomaly is
regard to the notes of the Bank of England sod
of Country Banks had not been removed, he
sMsM
certainly have opposed it. He was aware that
tbs
present measure was not without its practical di&
rubies, but he was content to adopt the principle, is
the hope that these difficulties would not °aweigh*
proposed advantages.
Mr. MARRYATI said, lie feared the pelessi
measure was subversive of all legal rule, and a
principle. He could see no reason for rohbili
Bank forgeries with death, and leaving all dier OUP
geries to comparative impunity. Ile understood
reason fur severe punishment to he most WOO( ill
cases where the offence could be committed witit
facility; and this reasoning applied to the kg
against forgery, fully justified the severity Id Its
present punishment. He thought also that the Is'
alarms exceptions in the Bill went a considerA
length towards destroying its effect.
Mr. CRI PPS said, lie approved of the pries'?"bt
the Bill, and should vote fur the thirst reading;
should move to except forgeries of Bankers' 60
from its operation, in consequence of the facility red
which these forgeries were committed. •
Mr. MANSFIELD opposed the Bill, as lie those
perfectly uncalled for, and the moment chosen
Wits.*
troductiun very untimely.
lit. JOHN SMITH believes% that the a
ait/
punishment was one great cause of the
Wawa
crime, as severity of punishment discouraged Pr migt
tors. He thought the forgeries upon the Hanka gst
land would be considerably lessened if that Eetalpfish
ment would increase the difficultv of forging
The Country Bank notes were executed in a much beto
manner, and the number rgeries on Country Bob
was in consequence materially lessened. lieshuoldoi"
dially vote for the Bill.
Mt
Mr. PEARSE defended the comities of the limal.*,
his observations were made in a very low tune uf v•iti
The Bank, he said, had slicers acted leniently tools*
those who forged upon its establishment, except is
of a second offence. He feared the general
the Bill was highly dangerons.
Mr. MILLS opposed the Bill.
Mr. LOCKHART thought there was considershis
consistency io the Bill. He could not admit theisem
of the distinction which had been taken hewers i!sr
rice upon thTehlelafoorkrorfiesEngurlanniltharnitil,
made a regular systematic trade.
Mr. BARINO said, all that was riesiral by tire. plot
Bill was% the esactment of that mitigated po
PearsePrju
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ttlehrobsear uftmetspneWas
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