The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-06-09 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

only a source of /mention to those against whom it Dukes, members of the reigning family, • had also
operated, but it was also a source of weakness with voted in it. Under these circumstances the Catho.
reference to the country in general. Nothing could lice had been led to indulge the most sanguine et-
therefore be more contrary to sound policy than to pectatirms that their Claims would be speedily and
continue these disabilities, and every friend to the favourably attended (o; and this was certainly an
welfare of the community must he desirous to re- additional reason why their Lordships should not
mare these restrictions, provided it could he done suffer these hopes to be disappointed by now re-
without serious danger. This was a sufficient fusilier, to go into this enquiry. With respect to the le.
meet for enquiry, even if there had existed reasons cotad head, the Claims which the Catholics had to their
tn-suspect •the fidelity of the Catholic body. But Lordships' favourable consideration by the fidelity
where could their Lordships find any sound reason which they had evinced for upwards of 20 years, he
for suspecting the fidelity of the Catholic body?— begged leave to call their attention to the Act of
They had given mane proofs of their allegiance and 1793, in favour of the Catholics. it was chiefly the
fidelity to the Government and Constitution ; and . wink of a Noble Lord, now no snore, and the greatest
surely, when they complained of the hardships which f Parliamentary boon that had ever been conferred on
they hail so long endured, it was incumbent on their j the Catholic population. That Act imposed an oath
Lordships, in point of justice, as well as sound poe ; upon the Catholics, a shocking and abominable oath ;
licy, at least to take theia case into consideration.—; for there was no offensive, iniquitous, and malignant
In the next place their Lordships would be pleased ; charge that had ever beets imputed to the Catholics,
to consider the numbers of those whose claims were tagainst which they were slot called upon to swear by
to be the subject of enquiry. There was a very con.; that oath. Yet that oath, such as it was, they had
siderable and respectable body of Catholics in Eng.; taken, and he recollected that some of the ablest
land, and in Ireland 4-sths of the whole population ; Members of the Irish Parliament had been of opi.
were Catholics. Would their Lordships, thee, dis. niou, that under the security of that oath the Catho-
miss the cleime of so large a population of the em- lies might be admitted to all the privileges of the
pint, without even consenting to take their case into constitution, except such concessions as might affect
consideration ? Nothing further was stow required the complete Protestantism of the Crown, and the
but a consent to enquire. The 'louse would not be security of the Established Church. A motion to
pledged tosany specific measure on the subject.. The' admit them to these privileges, with the above ex.
whole questien would be completely open for eon.' eeptions, was then made in the Irish Parliament, but it
eidera tine. On the behalf of this numerous body of was lost. Bet when their Lordships had such a mark-
their fellow-subjects, he called upon their Lordships ed proof of the fidelity and allegiance of the Catbo-
at least to enquire whether the complaints were in • licsdurisig a period of more than 20 years, could they
Hey degree well-founded ; and if they were,. to cuts. now refuse even to reel ire into the Catholic Claims ?
sider what redress could be afforded. There was an_' In ally measure that might now be suggested proper
other consideration which ought to weigh with their attention might he paid to secure the Protestantism of
Lordship in attending to this question. If it should the Crown, the Ecclesiastical Courts, and every thing
not be thought proper to remove the disabilities un- that might with any show of reason be conceived to
, der which the Catholics laboured, it was at least de- be dangerous to the Church Estahlishmeitt. When
sirens that they should hear uniformly upon the , their Lordships, then, considering that the Catho.
whole Catholic body ; and if their Lordships were to I lies had been so long in the habit of taking this oath,
remove the disabilities affecting a portion of the Ca- lan oath prepared by a Noble Lord, who was well
antic body, and not affecting the whole, this was i dispused to introduce into it every thing against
sufficient ground for going into en enquiry. The; which there could be even an imaginary necessity to
disabilities under which the Catholics in Scotland la- • guard—when they coesidered that upon the security
Istaured, were different from those to which the Eng- of that oath it had been conceived by so many mi..
Lich Catholics were subjected, and the dimbilities of nent Members of the Irish Parliament that so much
the English Catholics were different from those of might be conceded to the Catholics, surely their
the Irish Catholics. What had the less-favoured t Lordships must admit that the claims of the Catho.
portion of the Catholics done that they should be sob- tics merited so much attention, at least, as to betaken
jected to exclusions which did not attach upon the rest ! into consideration. Well, then, their Lordships had
of their brethren ? Why should the Roman Catholics I had a trial of the conduct of the Catholics silica the
of the north be treated differently from those in the Bill of 1793, and if any of them thought, as he did,
south, and those in the south from those in the west ? that all the privileges they claimed might have been
It was impossible to suggest a sound of rational rea- given them then, surely they might he much more
son for a distinction of that description ; and there- safely and readily given now. That Act not only gave
fore, if it were only for the purpose of uniformity them privileges but expectations. The first repeal of
its their treatment of the Catholic Body, their Lord- of any of the grievances under which they laboured
ships ought to gn into the enquiry. Another very . took place in 1771, and how greatly had Ireland
material consideration suggested itself in arguing the , thriven since that period : it at one became a nation,
case on the ground of justice and policy—lie alluded and gradually more and more available towards
to the expectations that had beets held out at the the commoul cause of the Empire. He would
period of the Parliamentary Ultimo between Great call upon their Lordships to restore completely to the
Britain and Ireland. He did not mean to say that' general service of the United Kingdom that native
any positive engagement had been entered into that, energy of which, the Irish Catholics possessed so great
the Catholic disabilities would he removed in conse a share, but which was stow cramped by the disabi-
quence of the Union, but he would say that hopes lilies under which they laboured. The Noble Lord
had been held out that their Claims would meet with j next urged the absurdity of granting to the Catholics
wove favourable attention than they met with its the c
.crtain offices. said withholding from them others.--
Pat liament of Ireland. Ile himself Nos as fully in- More than half a viper', the Country Magistrates
formed on that point as ally Noble Lord on the op- of the South of Ireland were to his knowledge Ca.
posite bench could be. He had himself been a friend tholics; and if they were thus invested with the exe-
to the Unien, solely from the hopes which he had cution of the laws, why taut also open to them the
been taught to entertain that the Claims of the Ca. office of Judges ? The Catholics had the power of
tholirs would he more favourably attended to its the returning one half of the County Members for Ire-
United Parliament ; and he had gone into the south . land, and yet they were not entitled to sit as Kew-.
and gained the support of the Catholics of two coati- seutatives themselves. Wes this not au anomaly that
ties, and a populous city, to the measure, upon the required to be corrected ? It was a singular fart,
grounds which had been suggested to himself. lie ; that the premier Earl of all England could not sit in
had stated to them that they had hied the temper of !that House, merely because he was a Catholic.—
the Irish Parliament ; that they knew the Coustitu. I Where was the distinction between the elective Fran.
Cost of that Parliament to be such as left (hens no : chiae and political power? Ile now came to the Cr.
great hopes that their Claims would be speedily at- rangetnents in favour of the Catholics. On the Bill
tended to ; that in the event of an Union they would which was brought into the other House in 1813,
have an opportunity of ascertaining the sense of the I with this view, he had given his opinion at the time,
whole of the United Kingdom, and that a favour• that its clauses would not prove satisfactory. The
able result might reasonably be expected. With the , bug-bears, for he could cell them nothiog else,agniust
expectatioe, therefore, that the Union would be the ; which that Bill professed to
.guard, were the Pie.
means of securing a more favourable attention to tender, the Pope, and daeger to the Protestant sue-
their Claims, they had concurred in that object.— cession. But would any mass seriously say that the
Their consent had been obtailled, not by bribery or! Catholic Bishops could have any communications
corruption, or any improper conduct on
.their part, with the Pope that might be dangerous to the State
but by the fair and proper expectation that its the ;The fact was, the Bishops had no communticittion
United Parliament .their case would find more fa. with the Pope but about what was called the cone.
vourable consideration than they could hope for from . crated pall, which it was not necessary fur a Bishop
the Irish Parliament: Now, then, when the measure to receive, in order to perform the ordinary functions
of the Union was effected, and the whole of the ar. of his office. It was quite absurd to suppose that the
rategements in full activity and operation, he called Catholic I'relates, against whom the Bill affected to
upon their Lordships not to pledge themselves to any guard, were capable of endangering the Protestant
specific plan, but merely to enquire whether any succession. Had there been any disturbances in
thing, and bow much, could be done in favour of the , which they had engaged; or had there been a shadow
Catholic Body. Though the Government had come of complaint that any Catholic Biellop or Dean had
under no positive engagement on the subject at the not done his duty ? During the Pope's captivity no
time of the Union, yet hopes were certainly en- communicatiou had taken place between him and the
couraged that the Clairnsof the Catholics would meet Bishops, though the affairs of their church had gene
with cool and candid consideration ; and their Lord- on as usual. Why, then, fear any undue influence
ships ought not to disappoint that expectation—al- on the part of the Pope ? The whole machinery of
ways remembering that at present nothing was called the Bill to which he now alluded did nothing; nay,
for but enquiry. IVhat it might be proper to do it did worse than nothing, for it was founded on an
upon going into that enquiry, it would be for their imputation that the Catholic Clergy were proper ob.
Lordships afterwards to consider. There was another . jests of distrust. It went to degrade them, while it ad.
circumstance to be taken into consideration with re- milted the Laity into Parliament. What, then, did the'
ference to the expectations which the Catholics might Laity say in answer to it? %Vise, this, that they would
reasonably entertain, tilt their Claims would meet not accept a boost at the expence of their Clergy....
with favourable attention from their Lordships.— Ile knew the Catholic Clergy of Ireland well ; and
About three years ago a motion was made by a No.: would declare., that in troublous times he had derived
ble.Marquis (Wellesley) for the purpose of pledgieg • more assistance from them in keeping the peace than
the !loose to take the subject of the Catholic Claims from any class of men whatever. Ile was, therefore, I
into consideration. It was unnecessary for him to completely against throwing on them the imputation I
advert to. the eloquence and ability with which the of not being trust-worthy. Re objected also to that!
question was treated by the Noble Person to whom ittterferetice which the Bill in question gave, with
lie alluded. Their Lordships could not have entire- regard to the appointment of their Bishops and Deans,l
ly forgot the admirable speech made by the Noble on account of the provincial nature of the Irish Go. •
Marquis on that occasiou, tier could they have for. vernment. However respectable the character of the
got the powerful effect which that speech had pro- Lord Lieutenant, the care and concerns of the Ca-
duced. The motion was indeed lost, but it was lost tholic Church would have devolved on some third or
only by a majority of one, 108 Lords being against fourth rate persons under him, to the disgust of they
it, 105 for it. Their Lordships would likewise cost. Catholics and the injury of the Government. The
eider of whom that powerful minority was composed.' Noble Lord next adveriet4o the. Resolutions and the
Not to mention the high character and talents of the ! Bill which had been prepared by some of the leaders
great body of the Lords ip that minority, it was vof
_the Catholic Board. Some of those Gentlemen
worthy of particular attention that a Right Rev.; he laei to be persons of great learning, eloquence,
Prelate (Bishop of Norwich, we believe) of the atul energy. They might be very useful in affording
highest character and great constitutional knowledge' inforntoion to Ptrfinment, but he should be the last
had sated to that minnrity, and that two Royal man to say 0:i:t :1!.3• .i.rre in any degree entitled to

proscribe or to dictate. He should be the last man so
jto let down the dignity of Parliament, and this be
had always told these persons. All he contended
I for was, that the House should enquire and legislate
as seemed good to it. If there had been imprudence
on the part of the Catholics, an excuse for it must
he found in the disappointment of their hopes. God
knows there was enough of inflammable matter in
Ireland ; but had the Irish Government done nothing
to increase the irritation ? Was it not known that
Dublin Newspapers in the pay of Government had
introduced into their columns violent abuse of the
Catholics, which would not have been the case if it
had been supposed to be displeasing to the higher
powers. Hence mutual irritation was produced.;
but put an end to the grievance, and you would put
an end to the quarrels. For himself, he had to say,
that if at any time on arguing this cause, he had
thrown out what gave pain in any quarter, he was
truly and sincerely sorry for it.—[Hear, hear!]—
He had felt that he had a strong cause, and endea-
•oured to support it with zeal, though that zeal
might have overstepped prudence. He would beg
the House to consider the Catholics as humble Peti-
tioners at their bar, and that they had it in their
power to make them most useful subjects. The No-
ble Lord concluded with moving—

" 'rod the Howe do take into its immediate consideration,
in a Committee of the whole Noose, the present state or bis
Itoman Catholic soiree', in reference to the laws by
which t:n•y may think themselves aggrieved."
The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE was sure
the House would give the Noble Lord full credit fur
the motives by which he was actuated in-bringing
forward this question. For his part, however, he
thought that, on the Act of 1793, the Parliament
should take its stand, because in it every thing was
given that was consistent with the security of our
establishments in Church and State, and that was
necessary for the comfort and well.being of the Ca-
tholics themselves. The Noble Lord had alluded to
the oath contained in that Act, which he assnmed
was inserted contrary to the wish of him (Lord
Buckinghamshire), he then having a seat in the Irish
Parliament. This assumption he now distinctly dis-
claimed. ft was true it was net the original oath as
proposed by the Government of that (lay, but it was
substantially the same; and it was in fact introduced
on an intimation from the Catholics that they were
ready to make such declaration In return for the pri-
vilttes conferred upon them ; but it was the oath of
supremacy which, in his opinion, the Catholics most
take before they were prep tied for the reception of
political power. Foreign supremacy was with them
an immutable principle, but they must renounce it
before he was prepared to go one step farther than
the Act of 179. i. This was the opinion of the sup.
porters of that Bill in the Irish Parliament, and he
instanced the Noble Lord's own father, an authority
that would probably weigh with hint, as there de-
claring that the great bultvat ks of the Constitution
were a Protestant House of Commons, and a Pro-
tiistant House of Priors. Ire denied, therefore, that
further privileges were then entitemplatod. Know.
lug the opinions w:iit !I the Catholic Clergy and
Laity had recently professed, he thought it would
tend only to Minion were the House now to go into
6 Committee. As to the pledge which the Catholics
hail received at -tie. period of the -Union, he con-
tended it was only a iitedge that their Claims should
be taken itho cen,ideration; rind surely, consider-
lug the volumes of speeches Obit had been deliveltd
on the subject, it coonl not be said that that coosi.
d oration hail been withhn! I.
Lord IIL DUNSTAN VI LLE shortly opposed the
. motion.

Lord GREN VILL.: said, that his opinions upon
the subject of the Catholic Claims were ton well
• known, and had been ton often delivered before
their Lordships, to render it necessary for him to
travel over the same ground ow the present occasion.
In the little that he should now say, therefore, in
support of the vote he intended to give, he should
confine himself strictly to whatever might be consi-
dered as new matter in the attoal aircurnstances of
the Catholics of Ireland, or in the present times.
. His Noble Friend had distinctly disclaimed any con.
section between his Motion and certain Resolutions
which they had heard of in another place, and be
Lard G. begged leave as distinctly, and as positive-
ly, to disclaim any similar connection with respect
to his vote,that night. As long as he had the honour
of holding a seat in the British Parliament, he
should consider it his first and paramount duty to
resist with firmness, nay with indignation, any at-
tempt to dictate to the wisdom and discretion of the
Legislature.--[Near, hear !]—Besides, those Re.
solutions went to an event from which his mind
turned with abhorrence, that of shaking the Pro-
testant listahlidunents of this country to their (eon-
dation.—Ulear, hear !]—And bad they cattle be-
fore their Lordships in the shape, either as Resolu-
tions, or as digested into a Bill, no consideration
upon earth should have induced him to give them his
support.--[Dear, hear n—ln voting, however, for
the Committee proposed by Ida Noble Friend, his
object would be, what it had always been, to give;
the subject that grave and mature deliberation which
• be had long thought it necessary to give, and which
every year had rendered more imperiously so. With
respect to the law of 1793, upon which his Noble
Friend had said he meant to make his stand, he had
always been of (wisdom that that law had been framed
in a spirit of: liberal conciliation, and with a deter-
mined desire on the rut of the Government to vs-
tend to every class of the subjects of these realms,
it certain portion of civil freedom ; no one took a
More active part in that measure than the individual
itho bail now the honour of addressing their Lord.
ships; and therefore he could net he suspected of a
with to depreciate its value or character, when he
lipid that it rested 0114411 a principle perfectly ano-
malous. It rested on the avowed desire to give to
the Roman Catholics all that could be given them,
consistently with the state of the times, and when
he recollected all the difficulties of that situation, he
I:ad never seen any reason to feel other than unmin-
gted satisfaction at the part he bore in the success of
the measure. But he did not 0141 think, nor had he
ever since thought, that the subject was closed, or
that it rested upon awyageneral principles which
would preclude any /either considerration of it.—
[Hear, hear!]—Even if hb hid so thought, at that
time, his opinion would necessarily have referred to
Ireland as an independent and separate country) and