The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-06-05 00:00:00

abolition of capital pesisktnent was recommended, and .
the substitstios of a secondary ponishmest. These
measures were received by the house and adopted, but
others which were also recommended were rejected.
His Honourable and Learned Friend now amused
as the basis of his argument, that the house as-
seated originally to these measures, it ought now to
accede to his Resolution. if he brought forward a spe-
cific measure where the remedies were at once seem, be
might call on the house with some reason to assent to it.
But he saw no ground for going into a general review
of the Criminal Law. when the house were completely is
the dark as to any practical measure that could result
from such a course. Besides, as proposed by his Hon.
and Learned Friend, it was a subject which could not be
considered is one night, or one Session. When be said
that punishment increased crime, he bad no facts to
guide him but the number of persons tried and the am-
ber convicted. The Committee recommended that capi-
tal punishments should be abolished in awhile cases, sod
from the morns on the table, ha fund that the crimes
which were exempted from the punishment of death,
bad increased in as large a proportion as other crimes ;
thus the argument founded upon these data was stronger'
for the continuum* of capital punishment than fee
its abolition. Bet the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
mas slid, since capital puoisbment bad the effect of In-
creasing crime. it ought to be repealed. If the argu-
ment be good in one cue it must in another, sad there-
fore should be repealed as to burglary, robbing oe the
highway, and maiming and cutting with the design of
killing. It was the principle of our law, that there
could be no scale for the punishment of crime, its slides-
lion must be left to the exercise of the prerogative of the
Crown. But the Horn. and Learned Goodman said, if
capitol punishment we to execited, and a secondary
bstitnted, it were better that the secondary punish-
ment should be at once male the fixed punishment.
(the Attorney General) said no, because the fear of ea-
pi tal punishment operated as an additiosal motive against
the commission of the offence. When his Hobourable
and Learned Friend compared the Criminal Law of
France with the Criminal Law of this country. he should
ban taken into consideration the whole system of the
French Preventive Police; and unless they were
to adopt the whole system of the Code Napoleon, no
inference could be drawa from lbe effects of the
Criminal Laws of Franco. At what period did the
Honourable and Learned Friend call upon the
House to adopt his Rusticities? At a time when s Coss.
=Wee were sitting on prison discipline, and en the
state of the police, and when a Report was expected
from a gentleman who bad been sent out to New South
Wales. to eollect Information on the subject of troate-
portation. With a knowledge of these circumstances,
did his Hon. and Learned Friend call upon the House
to adopt his Resolution.. If he expected that any
practical measures should follow his Resolution. he
ought to have introduced it to the Horse at a much
earlier period of the Session. It would be placing the
House sad the country is an extraordinary situation if
this motion were to be adopted without following it up
by any practical measure. To adopt each a Resolution
would be holding oat a general condemnation not only
of the law itself, but of the moose, is whiob it was eat
tested; and he know of tto jest ground of complaisi
against the present practice of the Law. There yeti
several reforms now under consideration. and in a stab
of progress, which might be impeded by this happen
tune motion. But the House was not sow is a nat-
ation to follow up the abstract proposition of his Hon.
sad Learned ?dead. and he would place the law aid
the administration of it in an odious situation. He ad-
mitted the great instance of revising the Criminal
Lew, and abolis many capital puishoisota; but.
even 'measure requi a distinct soesideradon. which
mad net be gives to the subjeo is
Vainewervillous inirepor
the Rushtoe, and should therefore move the previous
question.
Mr. F. BUXTON, after eulogising the speech of Sir
J. Mackintosh, said that be was ready to concede to the
AUorsepOtmeral that the possibility of suffering death
was an additional terror to prevent the commission of
crime. But he had in his possession the Returns from
Ireland, which proved the inefficacy of that law altoges
tber. The number of persons tried for crimes not ca-
pital was 6000, of which 3000 were convicted. The
number of trials for capital crimes was 2300, of which
only two hundred were found guilty. Thus upon the
former the convictions amounted to one-half. while Is
the latter there was only a proportion of one-seventh.
The chasm of conviction epos a capital charge was that
of four to one; and. upon a charge not capital, as one
to three. This was the same in England, and it was
found to be so in America, before the mitigation of
their penal code. In the year before that Act, the pro-
portion of acquittals was ooe-balf, and the following
year onlyone in seven. It was a fact, that there were a
very great many more capital punishments indicted is
England and in France. and it was therefore necessary
for them to examine why it was so. The Hon. Member
then contended that transportation was not a punish.
meet, bat rather a bounty upon crime. For this he had
the authority of Lord Liverpool, Lord Sidmonth, Lord
Eldon, and Lord Elleoborougb; and he bad also that of
the principle convicts themselves. He had in his hand
• letter from a person named Clark, to his wife in Kent,
dated New South Wales, where he had been sent as a
convict. He would read the letter. which was a confi-
dential and a private one—(A laugh)—with the permis-
sion of the House, and with the permission of the per-
son to whom it was written. The letter stated that Pro-
vidence had taken care of the winter, as he always did
—(A laugh.) He had great plenty provided for him,
and a pound note is his pocket whenever he wanted it.
The winter is that country was hotter than the summer
—(A loud laugh—than the summer in England. They
never bad ice thicker than a shilling, and the peaches
ran wild about the country,—(Land Laughter)—and the
grapes hung in clusters epos the rocks. He concluded
by saying, that it (being transported) was the best thing
be even dose. He (Mr. Buxton) would ask the House
if this were a description likely to deter from the com-
mission of crime, or to excite towards it. There was
another case of a convict who wrote home that he was
quite happy, that he was servant to SqLire Love, who
every body thought a very clever fellow. Now he hap-
pened to know something of this Squire Love. which he
would relate to the House. He was a man who cm-
bersled large sums of money from his employers in tbe
country, and had made clear off with it to a vessel just
going to sail from one of our ports. Here he was taken
and committed to Neirgate. But the ity of our cri-
minal code was his protection; all his offences appeared
to be capital ones, and his prosecutors were about to set
him at liberty, when it was discovered that he might be
charged with the minor offence. He was convicted and
transported to New South Wales, notwithstanding that
be (Mr. Buxton) went to the Home Secretary's Office
and recommended that he might be sent on board tbe
hulks. The consequence was, that lie carried off the
stolen property, and pow lives in the style described by
his servant, and was reputed a very clever gentleman.
which no doubt he was. The Hon. Itlentber proceeded
to enforce this argument, and concluded by supporting
the resolution.

Mr. COURTENAY said, that whatever was his oppit•
Ilion upon the principle of the Hoo. and Learned (bode.
man's motion, he could not, he was sorry to say, concur
in the general propriety of the proposed resolution, the
effect of w►ich would, be thought, be to set the ladsdi•
close example of postponing ar a twelvemonth actin
open a principle, whicb, at the same moment, they de•
' clued to be jut and expedient. Beside", if the Hon.

THE STATESMAN.

sad Learned Oentlemaa's modes were adopted. be
would he nothing nearer the attainmeot of his ultimate
object—it would not practically advance the reformation
of the crimioal code a single steQ. The Hon. Heat. con-
clpsied by saying, that in his opinion it would be mach
better that his Hon. sad Learned Friend should consent
1 to have the several measures which the scope of this ino-
lion embraced, brought hefore the house in detail on the
earliest poesihk opportunity, en ,n that he (Sir J. Mack-
intosh) should persevere in going to a division. He
(Mr. Coortesay) hoped this would not be the case; bat
if it were, be should certainly vote against the 'notion.
Ur. PEEL rose amidst loud cries.( question, and said
be coalsl not give a silent vote on the present occasion.
considering the situation he filled. He was willing to
allow all possible merit to the views and motives of
tithes who had takes so active a part in calling for a re.
vision of the Criminal Laws; but at the same time be
could not go the length of sanctioning all the principles
which they advocated. It was the intention of his Dila-
Jetty's tioyeromeot to submit, on Friday next. a propo-
sition to the house which he hoped woold answer every
purpose, and lie entreated Hon. Members to wait the re.
8114 sad not pledge themselves to any measure previ-
°oily. The Right Hon. Haldeman then proceeded to
argue at some length against the principle of the nso-
tion,as it related to prison discipline and the punishment
of transportation. He next suggested the expediency of
sending out con • icts to the !shunt of Bermuda. subject
to a system of punishment spun the principle of the
hones. as now existing in this country. He concluded
some further olntervations, by stating that. is the event
of :he question being again brought forward in the
course ollthe next Session, he eriould be prepared to
.mnetitairis.faitness and candoltr.

Mr. C. WILSON opposed the resolution.
Mr. C. WYNN rose aminst a lead cry of "question,"
and made a few ollservarionsonder repaint expressions
of impatience, and a desire for the result. We could only
collect. that he opposed the motion.

Sic J. at ACKINTOSH, in reply, was ready to concede
thatpart of his resolution which related to prison disci-
pline. The statement of the Right HonAlentleanan,
that be Intended to bring before the house that subject
io the course pith. present Session, would supersede the
necessity he had been under of introducing the subject.
The lion. and Learned lientlensan consented to leave pri-
na discipline out of his resolution, but defended the re•
•aioder, and declared his intention to take the sense of
house on it.

Thetiallery was then cleared for a division ; the
atuthors were— _ _

For the Resolution, 117—Agaiost it, 101—Majority lo
favour of the Motion, 16.