The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-03-28 00:00:00

STATF:SMAN

sively Protestant—of the disqualifications in the Bill
on Roman Catholics filling eertaims oftm.es, and• be-
canse of the Privy Councillor's oath, he would,
propose the amendment to this clau4e, to the ex.
tent which he had stated. As to the second motion,
excluding Roman Catholics from the judicial office,
the Right Hon. Gentleman said that his reasons were,
because, in the first place, the Rottman Catholics did
rot now complain of any partiality in time administra-
tion of Justice: secondly, because Dissenters were al-
ready shut use from being Judges by the sacramental
;Lists, and therefore it was no hardship on Roman
Catholics, as this Bill affected only to put them on a
footing with Dissenters; thirdly, because however it
might be a hardship en individuals, such exclusion
never could press upon the great hotly of the Ronson
Catholics; foorthly, because of the inconvenience that
would attend a departure fromn the uniform practice of
choosing, by rotation, the Judges as delegates of appeal
in all ecclesiastical matters, front which Roman Catholic
Judges would be necessarily excluded; and, lastly,
because he thonght the judicial character would, of
conserrence, lose much of its respect in the eyes of
the people of this country, if they Jim' not see the
Judges go to church and partake of the sacraments.
The Right lion. Gentleman said that he would, how-
ever, give the silk gown to Catholic Barristers at the
Irish Bar; for he thought it unjust that, as the Army
and Navy hail been opened to diem, tha Bar should he
shut against them. It was said there was a great
change in the feeling of the people of this country on
this subject ; but he denied that it arose from apathy,
it proceeded entirely from the confidence which the
te•ople hail in this ralinnniated House of Commons.—
conclnded by rooting, that after the spe-
vial exception-4 in the clause of the Lord Chancellor,
&e. these words " and of the Privy Council" be added.
ile said that when that motion was disposed of, he
should then move to except the places of Judges, lc.
in Great Britain and Ireland also.
Sir .14 HIS NEW PORT began by eulogizing the
rood feeling with which the discussions on this ques-
tion had been carried on in the House. lie then
ruceedemi to argue against what he called the imagi-
nary thin r which the Right lion. Gent. apprehend-
ed from admitting Roman Catholics to be the King's
Councillors. If none were to participate in the
Conners mml the Sovereign but those who were of the
e tAbli.he4l Church of England, how did it happen
tl at Gayle were persons in the Privy Connell who
were of time Established Church of Scotland ? The
case of a Papist Sovereign was the only one in which
the Sovereign was personally responsible. Time itieht
lientlemme n then proceeded to combat some of
floe most intim. tont points urged by the Right Hon.
Member who had preceded him. We boasted of be-
ing a very tolerant country, but we forgot the ex-
a nple which other countries hail set us. It was not
very creditable to England to exclude Roman Catho-
lics from office, while Protestants were eligible to
every office in Catholic countries. We had the in-
s•anee of it Protestant Ambassador from Catholic Ba-
varia, aid of a Catholic Ambassador from Protestant
Denmark. Moreover. if he was rightly informed, the
present Danish Ambassador wimitlJ soon he replaced
by an English Catholi.., who, though nut eligible to
any place of ?moonr or trust In his own country,
was selected by a Protestant King of a foreign na•
t;un to represent his Court. If any thing were '
wanting to show the liberal spirit with which Catho-
lic Sovereigns were influenced towards their Protes-
tant suhjects, it would be found in the ins.anee of
Itnngary. That country possessed seven millions
inliabitants, and of those more than one-third
were Protestants.—(Hear, hear.)—The Right lion.
th•ntlentan then qn)ted a passage from a cer-
tain work, which stated that frequent troubles bad
intain place Is Hungary in consequence of religious
differences. However, in the year 1791 the Emperor
L-opold convened the Diet, and proposed to an A ssetn-
b'y of 4110 Deputies. that the Protestants should have
PA only toleration, bat a right to fill all offices to
Catholics were eligible. This proposition was
adopted. there being !91 for it. and only n 4 against
it. The nseasnre was proluctite of the most happy
e.r•ct ; and at the time the French took possession of
Vienna. they sought in rain to create a party in lion-
vary, so united were the people among each other.
Tice Ilnagarians, both Protestants and Human Catito-
-114, said to the French, s' Here yon cannot come ; we
will have nothing to do with con." Ile next argued
at some length, that nothing bat the strongest netts-
s:ty could justify exclusion. This necessity, how-
ever, he did not sat, nor could he bring himself to
believe, it existed. With respect to what had hems
sa;tl on a former night be the his. Member fur Corte
Castle (Mr. Henke!). anti others, that a good Roman
catlsolir, believing his religion the best, would feel
i• Itis duty to advance it at the expense of the Pro-
' testant faith, in the event of his being admitted to pe-
li•ical power, it was an argument which could not for
a moment be sustained. But hr was indeed notch sur-
frivol at hearing from the Hon. Member, that he, as a
goad Protestant, would feel it his duty to act upon
+loch a principle, if admitted to political power in a
Roman Catholic country. The only reply which he
John Newport) would make to such an argument,
oas to call the attention of the lion. Member to the
words of a Right lion. Gentleman, the late Member
fu- Dtiblin, who, on a former occasion, lie heard
t! e argument advanced, exclaimed across time table,
sootewhat im•regularly it was trite, but 'laterally enough
f•-om time impulse of hia feelings, " Men who could do
so are not only not worthy of filling politica! offices, hut
of discharging any of the common offi..es of life," It
w;44 singular, that Dissenters were made eligible,
trliie Roman Catholics were excluded. The late Sir
M. Forster was a Dissenter. :1% was also Lord Rosslyn.
'I he Right lion. fientleman concluded some further
ul,servations, by expressing his decided conviction,
it at the concession of the claims of time Roman Catholics
woold tend to the peace and security of the realm.
Sir JOHN NICHOL toTeated his objections to the
general principle of the Bill. Ile thought it a nontt
extraordinary mode of providing for the security
or time Protestant Church to advance the inter-
ests of one that was directly opposed to it. He
ti en went into some minute details with the view of
s' nosing that the *accession to the Throne might be
endangered by acquiescing in the Claims of the Ho-
man Catholics. The Church of Ireland he considered
to be inseparable from that of England, but if the
present Bill shoaki pass there would be imminent
danger to both. The Hon. and Learned Member read
• borne extracts frogs the articles of Vision is corrobo-

ratios of Isis arguments, and then declared his assent
to the clause, and his determined opposition to the
principles involved in the Bill.
Lord CASTLEREAGH then rote, and after some
prefatory obaereations, expressed his satisfactien at
the spirit of eantluur and conciliation which had hi-
therto been evince*, in ili‘enseileg the subject. Ile
should regret if the present clause should have the .1
feet of disturbing that spirit, kind he hopes' the Ito
man Catholics would receive with gratitude, as they
were hound to do, any iesinlgenve which might be ex-
tended to them by the House. In his opinion nothing
ouelst to be urged to which the liberal Protestant
copula not conscientiously and honestly ;secede. The
Noble Lord, after adducing souse arguments on this
point, said that the preservation of the Chnrch Esta-
blishment was a great Protestant principle, essentially
inherent in the Crown. Ile then went on to shew,
that though this principle was immutable as provided
by the Constitution, still the operation of it with re-
spect to other communion( was to be regulated by
circumstances. It was well known that the Roman
Catholic Clergy of Scotland received a certain
provision from the State. Ile should be the last
man ft ho would sanction the principle of making
provision for all sectaries that might happen to spring
ap in a free country, hut neither Roman I %Medics nor
Presbyterians s ere to he vie.' ed in that light.
next point on which the Noble Lord a oars! was
that which referred to the allege.' power of the Roman
Catholics, which he did not consider by any means so
formidable as was represented. The Noble Lord then
quoted some statement: tioaile by the late Dr. Dui gnat,
who, Hornig,' one of the strongest opponents of the Ro-
man Catholics yet had proved to the House that neither
in numerical force nor in wealth did they bear that ex-
traordinary proport. to the Protestants of Ireland,
which people were taught to believe. Ile had %alien
some pains to inform himself upon the state of Catho-
lie property in It—land, and lie cosh! pledge himself
that, with the exception sof fourteen or fif.ren places,
there was no place in that country where the indnener
of Catlv.lie property we'll(' matte itself felt ; and be
was sure, that, in the event of the passing th it Bill,
nut more than five or six Catholics wt.'s'', be returned
to that House. Desirous as he was of (hang a kind-
ness to the Catholic body, still lie would never agree
to admit them one step to places of power and trust,
if he thought the concession would he accompanied
with danger to the ecclesiastical and pol:t:cal
establishments of the country ; and if recto he thought
that the Catholics dill entertain any projects of viol st-
ing the aecurity of the esta'ali.loinessts, he was .ensit.le
that there was no place us here their ['siesta mould he
so operated upon and turned in courses connected with
the safety of the State, than Parliament ; and he was
sensible that no more useful method of cotanunication
between Proteetauts and Catholics cont./ be devised
than that which wool.' arise from the aohnie-sion of
such a number of of persons of the Catholic per.nasicit
into Parliament as wooshl not endanger the existence
of the Ettablished hell, ion of the State. It was also
his solemn conviction, that if the Bill was eventually
successful, so car irons Hiere being danger that a 1111111,
her of Catho) es woad be sent into Parliament, cape-
jsle of jnstly exciting the alarm of the Protestant
coleslaw:o,y, the noes! er bent in would be even more
limited sitas4bot which his flononrahle end Learnee.
Friend (Sir J. Nichol)) seemed to consider as Om
number wills whose a.hookeion the safety of the
Constitution ism Church and State woad be con-
sistent. Ile would net admit that the growth of
Roman Catholic wealth and ithinence wonld in time
make the present roncrosions dangerous. Ike..e even
that the apprehensions to this effect w just, he
would nate lay the foundations of that liberality and
unity of interest which would lie the best security
against such fears. The Noble Lord then proweeiled
to the application of the principles whirls be had laid
down. He t ()armlet' that the real question 1,4 the
House now to consider was, whether or not it was best
to give Roman Catholics the eligibility to the two sitts•
ations from which it was proposed to exclude theism,
and leave it to the discretion of Government to carte
into effect this conrension of eligibility. The' loonar-
irhy was essentially Protemant—the Paella:tient was
essentially Protestant, and would remain so ; was it
possible then that a Roman Cathelic could be danger-
ous as a Minister, to whom. existence as such the confi-
dence of his l'rotestatit Sovereign, and of a Protest-
.
ant Parliament, trais essential. Still less slid he see any
hanger from a Roman Catholic being a Privet:onto-Moir.
The question then was to time number of Bonsai' Catho-
lics to he r tiseil to the rank of Privy Counsellors;
and he wails! answer the assertion, that if it ts:l
a
right to limit the adonis-ion of Roman Catholics to
that rank, it oas riZbt to exclude them altogether,
by saying, that whilst the discretion of l'otersonsoint
was enough fir the security of the State aeaitea
Roman Catholic isofinence, the eligibility to time rank
being now granted, 'read take away the opportunity
for the fittere agitation of this distressing,: question.
Ile applied time same principle to the question of ad-
missibility to the Bench. He argues! that there would
not only he the security arising out of the airs ma-
stance of Roman Catholics being appointed to judicial
situation., solely by an exercise of the discretion of
Government, but there would he the additional one
produced by the peculiar circumstances of the Bottum
Catholic jitolge himself, namely, that he would feel
himself in %nets a situation of responsibility and so
closely watched by public opinion, that in Isis anxiety
to act with itspartiality, it would be snore natural that,
if he erred at all, it would be in favour of the Pro-
testant. And even in case that he because a dangerous
enemy to the Church or the State, the result must
be, to product. an Indisposition ever after on the
part of Government to appoint person, of leis
persuasion to similar offices: so that the only
source of hope which the Roman Cailoolics could have
of obtaining rank and distinction wadi' he, the ex-
emplary (-unhurt of those Roman Catholics who were
appointed to other. Ile would therefore leave the ap-
pointment of Roman Catholics to judicial situation* to
the discretion of Hovernmetst ; and indeed he would
carry the principle of non-exemption so far as that he
would rreunomend it ns the most useful step that cooled
be taken, nut to establish one single exception kiga:rxt
the Roman Catholies.—(Cheers.)—Let Hassan I nth
lies be eligible to the offiee even of basal ebarryli ,r
And could the extravagant thought be entertaipri
that a Rowan Catholic westld be selected, to fill that
office witls which such an extent of Prottntaat Erodes
sistatical patron age was connected. He felt most
•strungly that as for as possible they• should out de-

.troy the benefit of this meat:tire by recognising any
exclitaion which conlml lie as effectually carried into
execution by the workings of the Constitution itself,
and the fitness of things. In fact, it was as abastrd to
suppose that a Roman Catholic wonlil be selected to fill
the office of Lord Chancellor, as to suppose that a lien.
in the army would he isppeinted to the office of the
Archbishop of Canterbury.—(Cheers.)—The Noble
Lord applied his principle and reasoning to the aditt:s•
libility of Roman Catholics to the office of tiorernors
of Colonies. Ile contended that there was less objec-
tion to the admissibility- to others el this description
than to the former offices ; and as to the Ecclesiasti-
cal patronage ;Mouted to the offices of (inventors of
Colonies, he thought that it would be advisable to have
that patronage transferred to the Governtuent at home.
The Noble Luril recapitulated his arguments, and
pressed them in a most powerful manner. He renewed
the expression of his hopes that, to whatever extent the
House in its wisdom would make concession to Catho-
lics, they would receive them with those feelings of
gratitude, and that disposition to conciliation, which
the conduct of their Protestant brethren so strongly
claint,..l. '1 he Noble Lord eoncl idol by congratulat-
ing the liouse upon the nommletittion and impartiality
which prevailed in the discussion of this question, and
sat down amidst long and vehement cheering.
The cries of queat4ot at; withdraw w..re reiterated
font ail parts of the lion-e, and the gallery was nears
ly cleared for a division, when
Mr. LE kECI ruse, and animadverted in severe
tennis upon the comments of some lion 'Members op-
posite ition the petition which had been presented to
the House ag..inst the Catholic Claims from the Arch-
deaconry of Leicester.
r. WE I'll ER ELL after stating that clause of the
Bill which affixed a penalty to the offence of any Ro•
man Catholic Privy Counsellor giving advice to the
King upon reclesiastical matters, it being the right of
such person to confer with his litjesty confi entially
snd alone, asked ill what manner, such being the
ea-e, it was possible fur the offence to be detected
Sir J. MACKINTOSH adverted, first to the obser-
ratio'', of Air. Le Keck, and ackno,ledged that he
had spoken in strong tertua of indignation at seeing
the exploded imputations against Roman Catholics,
that their relieioe sanctioned deliberate perjnry, sanc-
tioned by being stated in the petition t.f the Archdea-
conry of Leicester. Ile stated that the great effect of
that part of the Bill, then under consideration, was
not merely to make Roman Catholics eligible to the
office of Pricy Connaellor, but to give them an
opportunity of enjoying those situations of trust
and power, which by custom were limited to
Privy l'otitisel lora. It hail been ashed by the
Learned Gentlem in (Mr. Wetherell), in what
'manner the offence of the Roman Catholic Privy
Connsellorosbo mdf:wed advice to the King upon gc-
elesiastiral matter+, could Le detected. Ile would
answer hint thus:—One of the authorities of Venice
once asked a Pope, where seas the record of the gift
of the patrimony of St. Peter to the Holy See. His
Holiness replied, that it was upon the back of the in-
strGoient wilds conferred the sovereiguity of the
.111riatic upon the Republic of Venice. In the same
way lie would answer the lion. and Learned Gentles
malt, " show me," be worth! say, " the means by
which the offence of the Privy. Counsellor at present;l
who is re-palms ble for any tin .unstitutional advice he
may give his Soyereign may- be detected, and I'll pro-
vide you with the weans of deterting the offence of
the Roman Catholic Privy Counsellor." The lion.
and Learned Gentleman proceeded to argue upon the
impropriety of admitting to Parliament persows who
were excluded from being. Privy Cornaellum and an-
swered the objections which were male to their ail-
mission to Privy Counsellors. upon the ground of the
inconsistency of the oath. and the nature of the duties
helunging to that office. Wooild lion. Gentlemen con-
template butt for a moment the prospects which Irish
families entertained fur their children, front the temssi-
hairy of their rising to high and exalted station., in
consequence of the removal of their present disalii•
lilies, they could not hesitate to concur in the utility
of this turitsn.e. When the high Roman Catholics ;
should see lint one Member of their own communion
raised to a high and distinguished situation, that one
palpable insianre would do mere than the reasoning
ef ages in attarhing them to the laws and the Consli-
tuition. The 11.11 m. Member next adverted to the salt'. I
tan- effect of the Bill in attaching Roman Catholic
istera to the nixintenattee of the laws. It hail
fallen within his own experience to adjudicate the
rights of persons of v ari 111 l s religious classes, 31ahis-i
metal's, I.lvil mtorm, Christiana, and Heathens, and he
was sure his judicial opinions w ere never influenced by
any religimins plejtolices. Ile had tom reason to sup-
pose that the Roman Catholic Barristers of Ireland
had not the same firinness.—(liear.)
M. 11.11t11.111 raprobated the language of the
petition of the Arcli.leaciittry of Leicester, and con-
curred in every word his Hon. Friend (Mr. Carew)
had said with respect to Father Hays. Ile (Mr. Bar-
ham) was in Rome at the time, and he could bear tee-
thiamine to the fact, that all Rome was filled with indig-
nation at the conduct of that person. lie ha.l within
doe last three days seen a ropy of the order by which
this Mr. Hays was obliged to quit Rome in twenty-
four hours. The Hon. Member after a few more ob-
servations, concluded by ssying he would support the
Hill,
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Committee divided on Mr. Peel's amendment. We un•
derstood the numbers to have been,
For the Amendment ttllS
IC4I
Aeninat it
Majority — 19

While m r were excluded, we understood that Mr.
PEEL bad proposed in the Committee a Clause `• for
the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the office of
Lord Chancellor for Ireland;" which clause was agreed
to without a siivisi )))) .
On our return to the Gallery Ir.. foond Mr. OCIUL.
BM' ItS on his legs. proposing au amendment, " that
Catholics be heligible to be Governors, or to situ&
sister the Government of any of his Majesty's Colonies
or Forci2o posstssions." The lion. Gentleman con-
tended, that the Governor of such Colony having the
power to appoint to. all tares connertel with the
Church, such power could nut be safely eutrusted to
Roman Catholic.
The House divided on this amendment, and this
number were—
For ths Ameadmene
Apollo* It ..
Apol
Majority against the —4ll