The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-12-09 00:00:00

and it had never deem

Mr. TURNER expla

tendances,

Mr. HARBORD, in continuation, repeated that the attend-
ances were upon the increase: Everybody knew that in the

first excitement of the change made'in the principles of the
council, the whole of the Roman Catholic children were
driven from the schools by their priests. The committee,
of course, could not help that; but the fact was still capable
of proof, that since they had had the entire controul of the
schools they had been upon the increase. He would here
mention that the Roman Catholic children were increasing
in numbers; and it was only within the last few days that
Roman Catholic children had been brought from a Roman
Catholic school, by Roman Catholic parents, into the corpo-
ration schools
Mr. EARLS
Mr. HARBORD could not say how many at that moment

but he had 6

—How t

Cry of

He should decline mentioning the names for obvious rea--
sons. Mr. Harbord then entered into an explanation of the
history of St. Michael's School being given up, in which he
established, in answer to Mr. G. H. Lawrence, that it ceased
operations not because the conservatives had just then ad-
vanced into power, and wished to fill the Corporation Schools
with Church of England children, but because the schools
were not supported. He regretted that such statements
should be made, as they had a tendency to mislead the coun-
cil, and as had been just heard, they had had considerable
effect upon the mind of Mr. Nicol. He complained, also,
of statements having been made, particularly with regard to
the attendances at the schools, which had no direct bearing
upon the question before tt
Mr. TURNER said
books not tv

numbers from the
minutes before he made the statement.

Mr. El ARBORD, resuming, said that Mr. Turner had very
ingeniously taken the numbers at a time when the reform
party were in full power, and compared them with the num-
bers under the present rule when the conservatives had been
in office only ten months. That was not placing the compa-
rison in a proper position before the council. How was it
possible, with all the opposition they bad met with, that the
conservative party should in ten months have arrived at the
maximum number of the reform party when they were in full
power? He repeated, however, that since they had come
into power, the numbers, instead of decreasing, had increased.
The Roman Catholic children had been increasing every week
in numbers, a fact which he stated on the authority of the
books. Gentlemen who wished well to the cause would
pause before they undertook the great responsibility, which
they had, of spreading true Christian principle, not from the
fear of man or to please man ; and that, he believed, was the
principle which the Education Committee acted upon. He
was reminded by a friend, to whom he was speaking the other
day on this subject, of the motto of the corporation upon their
chairs, which he translated thus for him, as he did not pro-
fess to be a Latin scholar :—" Our duty God has made in
easy forms." Now God had made the duty of the council
easy on this question. Let the council, therefore, do that
duty without having the fear of man before them.
Mr. EARLE.—What a classical man! (Call of " Order"
from the Mayor.)
Mr. PRIESTLEY contended that the Roman catholic chil-
dren had left the schools in consequence of the change which
was made in the system by the party now in power; and it
was unfair to make it appear that the Roman catholics had
increased since, when the fact was it was only the children
of other denominations.

Mr. HORNBY was reluctant to trespass upon the patience
of the council, conscious as he was that the subject was not
a favourite one with many members ; but he felt extremely
desirous to express his approbation of and to give his sup-
port to the amendment which had been moved by Mr. Law-
rence, because it did, as he believed, an act of justice to
those poor children who were formerly educated in the
schools, and who were now excluded from them. He sup-
ported it also because it afforded a hope of making some
arrangement which would be the effect of putting an end to
those virulent dissensions which had so long distracted the
public mind upon this question. He hoped, therefore, the
council would grant him their attention for a few moments,
and he assured them be would avoid every topic likely to excite'
party feeling, without giving personal offence to one single in-
dividual. There were several gentlemen in that room who ap-
peared to doubt whether Roman catholic children had been
excluded from the Corporation Schools; and he thought it was
Mr. Hodgson who distinctly declared at the last meeting that
it was not true they were excluded. He was sure Mr.
Hodgson did not wish the council to adopt any opinions
which he did not himself hold in all sincerity ; but he was
surprised that a person of his acuteness upon all ordinary
subjects should entertain so strange an opinion. They,
with whom he (Mr. Hornby) acted, had never asserted that
the Roman Catholic children bad been forcibly ejected from
the schools, or that the Education Committee had made a
specific regulation to close the doors of the schools to chil-
dren of that persuasion ; but they did say that the Education
Committee had attached conditions to their admission which
rendered it morally impossible for any honest Roman Catho-
lic parent to send his children there. He believed that no
one ever denied that Dissenters were excluded from muni-
cipal offices before the repeal of the test and corporation act,
or that Roman Catholics were excluded from either house of
parliament before the passing of the Roman Catholic relief
bill now the exclusion in these cases rested upon precisely
similar grounds to that by which the council excluded those
children from the Corporation Schools—for they were re-
quired to take tests which they could not take, and the
Catholic child here was required to perform acts at variance
with the religion it professed, and, as it was taught to believe,
at variance with the religion of his God. What would be
their own feelings if they, as members of the council, were
placed in the situation of the Roman Catholics of this town?
Let him imagine that the council, instead of being composed
of Protestants, was composed of Roman Catholics ; that such
a council was to establish schools and invite the children of
Christians of all denominations to attend those schools, re-
quiring that they should all read the Douay version of the
scriptures, be under the guidance of Roman Catholic teach-
ers, and join in every act and form of the Roman Catholic
church ? Would not every Protestant in the town join in ex-
claiming against the injustice, as well as the illegality of such
a system ? Would not every one denounce such a profession
of teaching Christians of all denominations as a mockery ?
Would they not all unite and call upon all the Protestant
clergy of the town to use all their influence to deter Pro-
testant parents from allowing their children to join such
schools ?. if so, with_what)utice could we blame the Ro-

man Catholic priests for a similar interference ? He under-
stood that the conduct of the Roman Catholics in keeping
from the schools had been spoken of in that council as highly
improper and reprehensible. Now, no one could be more
opposed to the tenets of the Roman Catholic faith than he
was ; but he bad no hesitation in saying, that if the clergy of
that church had not exhorted their people, and used their in-
fluence in the way they had, supposing they believed their
own doctrines, they would have been guilty of a gross dere-
liction of duty. He was d esirous that the council should
well consider the nature of the objection of those who said
that Roman Catholic children should not be admitted to the
benefits of secular education. It would be recollected that
under the former Education Committee, one hour each
day had been set apart for the religious instruction of
Protestants and Catholics who were separated for the
purpose. The objection made to that was that the
council was sanctioning the teaching of erroneous doc-
trines, of doctrines which they knew and acknowledged
to be erroneous; but the proposal of Mr. Lawrence was to
admit Roman Catholic children to receive secular instruc-
tion only, and the objection to this proposition was, that se-

cular education, if unaccompanied by sound religions in-
struction, (and sound religions instruction meant instruction
in protestant doctrines, -in, the doctrines of the Chnrgh of
England,) was worse than no education at all. The conclu-

sion from these two objections, if both were valid, was, that
education provided from the public funds must be confined
to the children of Protestants, and to such Roman catholics

a faith which they themselves denied. Now this was a
system entirely at variance with all his notions of justice; it
was not merely characterised by injustice but by tyranny—
tyranny the most hateful, because it inflicted upon one por-
tion of our fellow-countrymen a creed in which they did not
believe. In conclusion he must protest against the system
now adopted by the Education Committee. He desired
ardently to see all persons of the same religion as himself,
but he would use no other mode to gain that end than fair
argument.

Mr. HENRY LAWRENCE had very little to say, because,
what he had intended to have submitted had been anticipated.
He should conscientiously support the amendment. He
thought the Education Committee ought not to run into the
fault which had been committed by their predecessors in their
exclusion of—for of course a nominal exclusion was a virtual
exclusion in such a case—the children of the Church of Eng-
land ; and if they adopted a similar course with regard to the
Roman Catholics, they would be equally blameable. He was
afraid the amendment was not very likely to be successful,
because, he had found in many instances it had not met with
the support he anticipated. There was, however, a difference
of opinion • and -he should not be doing his duty to him-
self, or to his character, if he did not state his conscientious
opinions upon this subject. He did not believe that out of
doors the opinions he advocated was so little extended, as it
seemed to have been insinuated in that room. He had dis-
cussed the question on many occasions, amongst others, with
clergymen of the highest standing and respectability ; he did
not whether there had been any alteration in their opinions.
but he knew that the very course now advocated here, had
been suggested by a most able man who, at one time, said
they would be content with it. He -did not intend to give
offence to those he represented. He had been one of the first
conservatives returned to the council ; and his sentiments
were always known, namely, that he was a conservative, with
a certain degree of liberality in his views. In conclusion, he
felt bound to support the amendment, and he should do so
with satisfaction to his own conscience, though he had very
little hopes of success. _

Mr, PARKER regretted the pro. and con. speech which the
chairman of the Finance Committee (Mr. G. H. Lawrence)
had just made; but at the same time he gave him credit for
following the honest convictions of his mind. He had put
a question, namely, supposing the legislature had had to fix
a system of education to be carried out by municipal bodies,
what system would it have been ? Now, he (Mr. Parker)
would ask another question, which arose out of that, namely,
upon what principle was the municipal act based ? It was
based upon those principles which that council as conserva-
tives and Protestants revered, and which, he trusted, they
would ever combine to support. His answer, then, to the
question proposed by the chairman of the Finance Committee
was, that no doubt any system of education to be carried out
by municipal bodies would have been based upon the same
principles. He would prefer to see professing conservative
and Protestant gentlemen, instead of seeking to put a lever
whereby to overturn the existing system, at once come out
and boldly propose a grant of money exclusively for the
support of a school in which to teach Roman Catholic chil-
dren. That would be a manly course for them to pursue ;
but what would the Town-clerk say to such a proposition ?
Why, he would tell them that, according to the municipal
act, they had not the power to make any such grant. A
beautiful picture had been drawn, with a great degree of
talent, by Mr. Hornby, to show that the council would be
wrong in refusing to assent to the amendment; but he had
not told them what had been the proceedings of the Educa-
tion Committee during the glorious reign of reform. Why,
they had effectually excluded the Church of England chil-
dren ; and now they should take into consideration the
opinions of the vast community the council were elected
to represent. Now, he hesitated not to say, that of the
thirteen wards which had returned conservative members
at the late election, they had returned those members upon
the principle on which education in the corporation schools
was carried on. He hoped, therefore, that this fact would
be kept in view when the question was carried to a division.
It was all very well to express new ideas, and to put forth
new views upon the subject, but there could be no compro-
mise of principle in such a matter. The Education Com-
mittee were either right or wrong. It was true expediency
might do much in the way of modification ; but might they
not be called upon to make too great sacrifices, and too
great compromises for the sake of expediency? Expediency,
he had no hesitation in saying, was a word which had caused
to this country evils which he scarcely dared to mention.
There was a time before the principle of expediency was re-
sorted to, when Roman Catholics and political dissenters
were kept in check; but now, since its introduction the
council had absolutely been told that the Church of England
herself was a sectarian church. The late member for Castle-
street ward had ventured to make this assertion; and he
would ask the council whether that had not been caused by
the giving way to expediency ? He (Mr. Parker) was much
pleased to hear the compliments paid to the old corporation
by the chairman of the Finance Committee, because he was
satisfied that it, had beep, yichly merited by them. In the
words of the late lamented Mr. Foster, if all the corpora-
tions of England had beim 'like-that of Liverpool, there
would have been no occasion for municipal reform ; and that
sentiment, he was convinced, was the pervading feeling of the
town. He was also satisfied that it was intended, through
the municipal acts, to aim a deeper blow at the church, and
at our Protestant institutions than it had yet been able to in-
flict ; but he contended that the municipal act was founded
upon Protestant principle, and it must be carried out ac-
cording to the principles on which it was based.
Mr. EARLE was proud to acknowledge Mr. Hornby as a
leader ; and be thought, that after the able manner in which
he had addressed the council, and the sound sense which he
had spoken, every man in the council would_ be glad to

acknowledge him as a leader. Only put what Mr. Hornby
had said in contrast with what they had just heard from Mr.
Parker ! He wished the gentlemen on the other side joy of
their leader, Mr. Parker, who had asked a great number of
questions ; and the bulk of his speech consisted in answers
to himself. The Roman Catholics, however, were not to be
gulled. He congratulated the council upon the fact that
many of the conservatives coincided with the views which
had been expressed by Mr. Hornby.
Mr. ASPINALL said, it was now half-past three o'clock ;
and as there was no chance of the debate being concluded
to-day, he would move an adjournment. (Cries of " No,
no," and " Yes, yes.") . _ _ _

The. MAYOR said that was a question which rested entirely
with the council. (Cries of "Go on.")
Mr. PLATT said, he had always voted in the spirit of the
amendment, on the ground of common justice. He now
wished to ask the Town-clerk whether the funds of this cor-
poration could be' applied to the general use of the inhabi-
tants ? He meant the funds, not the other property.
The TOWN-CLERK said, the question put to him was
rather too general—whether the funds of the corporation
could be applied to the general use of the inhabitants.
Mr. PLATT said, his question was, whether the funds of
the corporation were to be exclusively applied to the educa-
tion of one denomination of Christians?

The TOWN-CLERK could have no hesitation in giving this
opinion, that the funds of the corporation might be applied
for the purposes of education according to the religion of the
Church of England ; and he had no hesitation in saying that
the funds could not be applied to education if it was to be
accompanied with religious instruction according to the
Roman Catholic faith and doctrine. He founded his opinion
upon the opinions of Mr. Bacon and Mr. Tinne. The case
put to them certainly applied to the appropriation of land,
but the principle was precisely the same.
Mr. G. LAWRENCE.—You allude to surplus income?
The TOWN-CLERK.—Decidedly to surplus income; for
that which is obligatory upon you, you are not at liberty so
to apply.
Mr. PLATT would ask the Town-clerk whether it was
legal to apply to Roman Catholics and dissenters for funds
which went into the borough fund? If it was legal to call
upon them for funds which went into the borough fund, it
was surely legal for them to be expended upon them.
The MAYOR.—You mean to say that because Roman
Catholics contribute to the municipal fund, therefore they
ought to participate in its application ?
Mr. PLATT.—Yes. _ _ _

The TOWN-CLERK must guard himself against giving any
opinion upon the question before the council ; but he should
say it clearly appeared from the advice he had received, that
the exercise of a trust, out of the surplus income of the cor-
poration, in favour of Roman Catholic institutions, conducted
according to the practice and doctrines of the Church of
Rome would be an illegal exercise upon the part of the
council, however the money might arise.
Mr. PLATT said the answer of the Town-Clerk would not
alter the conditions upon which he was going to speak; for
he had always understood that the contributions to the bo-
rough fund were not only paid by Protestants but by Roman
Catholics and dissenters of every denomination. That being
the case, he conceived it an act of common justice, leaving
religion out of the question, that the children of the poor, of
all religious denominations, should have a right to receive
their protection, their support, and also their instruction.
He left religion out of the question, much as he admired the
Church of England and her precepts. This being so, he
contended that the council ought to give to those children
secular education, without saving one word about religion.
Mr. BUSHELL suggested the propriety of an adjournment,
but the cries of " Go on" prevented the motion being made.

Mr. SANDS said that he should not at that late Hour go
into the general question, otherwise be might advert to the
great sympathy which gentlemen on the other side now pro-
fessed for one portion of the children of the poor, and to
their total disregard of another portion—the Protestant poor.
Did they not, when they were in power, as effectually turn
out of the schools the Protestant children, as they alledged
we have turned out the Roman Catholics ? He must say that,
in his opinion, the statements just made by his friend Mr.
Lawrence and by Mr. Turner ought to cause them to suspect
the propriety of their own proposition—he meant their state-
ments with respect to those children who were not required
to go to church on the Sabbath. The gentlemen complained
that those children were left destitute, as it were, on that
day. Now the Education Committee took an assurance from
the parents of those children, that they should be taken to
some place of worship upon the Sunday.

.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE.—Do I understand that when a
Roman Catholic parent comes, we take an assurance from
him that he will take his child to his own place of worship
upon the Sunday ?

Mr. SANDS.—Yes; to his own place of worship.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—I was not aware of it.
Mr. H ARBORD said, the course was this. As to the chil-
dren of Protestants, the committee made it a sine qua non
that they should go to the school on theZSundays, and then to
church.: The schools were regularly opened on Sundays,
which was a fact that Mr. Lawrence bad omitted to state,
and the children went regularly from them to church. If
they were the children of Dissenters, the same rule was en-
joined.
Mr. SANDS, in continuation, said that if these assurances
which were taken, either directly or by implication, that
parents would send their children to some place of worship
upon the Sabbath so completely failed, what was the assur-
ance worth which Mr. Lawrence would give that those chil-
dren who were admitted to receive secular education only
should receive religious instruction somewhere upon the
Sabbath? If the assurance in one case went for nothing,
what was it likely to be worth in another case? Mr. Law-
rence regretted that the corporation was educational; but
such being the case he could not help it, and they must deal
with things as they found them. He also argued as if the School
Committee required dissenters and Romanists to be taught
the tenets of the Church of England. Now the fact was not
so : children of the Church of England only were required
to learn the catechism, but all were taught the Bible. From
such an education as that none were excluded. The Bible
was not now excluded—nor any children excluded ;—the
committee admitted the children of all denominations, and
taught them the truths contained in God's Holy Word.
Mr. BIRKETT begged to ask the cauncil this question ?
If they were to have schools, upon what principle were they
to be conducted ? When he first saw the notice which Mr.
Blackburn had put upon the paper, he must confess he felt
shocked, that a man who had on many former occasions said
so much on religious education should have put such a mo-
tion upon the paper. They might call him (Mr. Birkett)
intolerant or bigot, or what they pleased, but he would
never consent to any such motion; he would rather move
that it be erased from the books. What, were they in a
Christian land, to be called upon to educate the children of
the poor without any religion at all? Did not the proposal jus-
tify the charges that were made against the promoters of the
late system, " that they excluded practically the Bible from
the schools ;" and now, the graver one, that it would exclude
all means or modes of religious instruction, altogether? The
council was asked to allow the schools to be opened for secu-
lar education only. Why the town would be disgraced by

I such a system, and it would bs high time for people to get
out of it to some happier abode. He felt so strongly upon
this question that he scarcely dared trust himself to speak
upon it ; and be
_regretted much kto ,differ with any

conservatives

ho called ihemsel

Indeed,
proceedings went on by conservatives, he
did not know whether he should not drop the name. It was
tbo a matter of regret that he should be compelled to differ

from a gentleman with whom he had been -associated, as a
conservative, in Rodney-street Ward. He felt bound to say
that he agreed with Mr. Lawrence so far, that he would be
under no pledge, and that he would act independently; but,
at the same time, he was satisfied that if it had been sup-
posed he entertained such opinions us were entertained by
some who called themselves conservatives, he never should
have bad the honour of being asked to come forward as one
of the representatives of Rodney-street Ward ; and, indeed,
if the burgesses had entertained such sentiments, he would
not have been the man to serve them. He hoped the coun-
cil would, by a large majority, put down this unhappy-
but he did not know what to call it, for he had not words
strong enough to express his abhorrence of such a system.
He hoped the council would confirm the proceedings of the
Education Committee by a large majority. •
Mr. HoncsoN said he had entered the council with the

intention of supporting the resolution of the Education Com-
mittee by a silent vote, because the subject had already been
so fully discussed with regard to principle. The principle,
too, had been so fully expounded, that all which he should
think it necessary to say, would be one word with regard to
ey were urged to establish a system