The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-06-29 00:00:00


After a Per observations from him, Mr. tioaDoro,
Mr. lavixo, Mr. 6KFICPELL, and Lord Bmerso,eahe
House again divided upon the emended Resolution
For the Amended Resolution, 41.—Agaitmst it, 12.
Majority, 29.
Several Resolutions were then agreed
.to without
discussion.
Upon the Resolution for defraying the expense of
clothing, &c. for convicts,
Mr. HUleflg made some inquiries relating to the con-
tracts for clothing.
Mr. CLIVE could not then answer the Hon. Gent.
but wonld do so upon a future occasion.
Mr. 11U 31E said, he had no wish to give any unne-
cessary trouble ; but as it was the duty of the House
to make itself acquainted with all the tircumstances,
he begged to propose that the vote should be post-
poned until to-morrow.
Mr. H. CLIVE said, that the clothing was provided
at the lowest possible rate. It was contracted for by
tender.
Mr. HUME said, that the Contractors met in pri-
vate, agreed to a farthing in their tenders, and then
shared" the order between them. The contract, be
thought, ought to he made by a public open tender.
Mr. ARBUTIINO T then agreed to the postpone-
molt until to-morrow (this, day.)
The Resolution for 3,000/. for the National Vaccine,
Establishment Was then agreed to.
The Resolution for 100,0110/. to meet Bills drawn,
or to be draWn from New South Wales, was then put.
Mr. BENNET said, that the snm actually wanted
, was always larger than the vote, sometimes by -19 or
50,0001. lie thought it fairer that the exact sum
should be stated in the first instance.
Mt. (lOU LBURN said, be had himself made the
loose observation last year, and that arrangements
were now making to the effect suggested by the Hon.
Member.
• Ihe Resolution was then agreed to.
The next Resolution for 90,532/. for confining,
maintaining, and employing Convicts, was then agreed
to witimont any observation.
The next Resolution was for 69,415:. to meet the
deficiencies of the Tee rand.
M. HUME thought, that in subsequent years the
items of this resolution should be taken separately.
lie trusted the Right Honourable Gentleman would
agree: with him.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
there would be no objection to alter the Resolution of
future yerir-, so as to skew the real expense of the Es-
tablishment.
Mr. HUME, in explanation, said, that the accounts
Mere kept very irregularly ; and his object was, that
they shunld he siinplified.
This Resolution was then agreed to.
The following Resolutions were then agreed to;
5e,0051. for Messengers' hills; 19,053/. for Salaries of
the Officers of the two Houses of Parliament : and
i.::,h00/. for Secret Services.
The next Resolution n as for 25,000/. for Entraordi-
.ry Expenses of the Mint.
51r. 111:31E oished to know whether this sum Was
for the F.stabliAmment of the 51iiii ?
Mr. ARIXIIINOT said, it was to defray the ex-
pense of a n-w Coinage for the present year. The
estimated expense was 75,0001., but of this 50,000/.
was in li Ind.
Mr. HUME said, he bad not found any charge for
the ordinary expenses of the Mint.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
they were permanently provided for by Act of Par-
liament.
'1 his 'Resolution was then agreed to.
A Resolution fur 21,000/. for printing Acts of Par-
liatnent for the use of Sheriffs and other Public Officers
MIS next agreed to.
The next Resolution proposed was for 3,500/. for
rinting the Jonrnals of the House.
Mr. HUME said he knew persons who would print
t':in at an expense less by 1,5001. than the sum pro-
posed, and in a manner no way deficient from the pre-
sent. Ile thought the public benefitted by competition,
unit lie should propose a reduction of 1.500/.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT said that as the lion. Member
bail promised his assistance in a Committee for consider-
ing expenses of this description, he trusted the reduc-
tion would not be pressed. There was every disposi-
tion to review these expense'.
Mr. RENNET said it was the ditty of Govern-
ment to exert themselves and nut call upon the Mem-
bers of time House to exert theme' ••• like Clerks in
tie performance of that which was paid tar to Public
UtF,cers.
Alter a few words from Mr. A tat xier,
The SPEAKER begged to address the House, in-
dividually, on the present question. The work pro-
vided for by the present vote was carried on under the
direction of time Speaker, upon whose certificate the
charge was paid, after being examined as to its amount.
. The charge was always more than the vote, the latter
• lasing merely a payment on account.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that after the explanation
which had been given by the Chair, only one wind
was necessary. It was clear that this vote mieht
pass with secority, as the necessity of a further vote
might be discussed in the proposed Committee.
Mr. h. SUMXgR said, the observation of the lion.
mber that the Members of the House were made the
Clerks of Government, was perfectly inapplicable
to the present question. This seas precisely the case
in which time Government bad no right to interfere,
and which might be usefully discussed in & Committee.
He was himself of opinion that there .was much prodi-
gality in this branch of public expense.
Mr. BENNE I' explained.
Mr. 111:51E said, that with respect to the expenses
of printing and stationary the liovernatient might save
one half if they seriously endeavoured to do so.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
The next Resolution was for 3,500/. for printing
the Votes of the !Lome.
Mr. BENNET said that some years since it was a
practice to distribute the printed Votes among Mem-
bers. From a mistaken economy this practice bad
been discontinued, and the Votes were now sold. They
were expensive, and he for one was too poor to buy
them. He spoke as a poor man himself; and if he
ries rich he should still think it Isis dote to Make the
observation for the benefit of others. Many or these
Votes from the beginning were yet on hand, aud
.he
thought they ought to be distributed. 'He ictiew not
whether there had been any partial distribution ; but

E sTA

he Conceived hinsselt to Ipe ash mach entitled to
as any one else.
After a few words from Mr. 11. Semstert and (we •
believe) Sir .1. aa on mast as,
The SPEAKF,It said that the early practice was to
distribute the Votes in order that they might be pre-
served. This was arranged by the Record Commis'
, sion, of which the Speaker nos always a Member.—
The progress of completing the work 'however was
found to be so slow and expensive, and not attended
I with adennate advantage, as it was observed that many
! volune-s were exposed for wile in different parts of
London. In 1`417- therefore, the arrangement was
loitered, and 5(11 only instea.l of I Ton) were primed,—
These trete sold, and the sale, which at first was very
slow, had considerably improved. The diifienlty
would be, to begin the work of printing de ;tom •
Mr. BENNET thanked the Speaker for his inform-
ation, and said be should think of some plan, by which
the Members of the House might be accommodated.
Mr. HOME observed that the House had just passed
a large Resolution for printing the Votes.
A desultory conversation followed between Mr. H.
GURNEY. the SPEAKER, Mr. BUTTLRWOBTH, Mr. HUME,
and Mr. A:WI:TH:4OT.
Mr. HUME wished fur an Account of the F.xpenses
incurred in printing Seotch Records 'of thie last ten
years, and Mr. ARBUTHNOT promised to obtain and pro-
duce such an Account.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
The following Resolutions were then agreed to :-
20,000/. for printing Bills and Reports of the House,
3117/. for re-printing them, and ttoool. for American
Loyalists.
A Resolution for 3000/. for re-printing the Journals
was next proposed.
Mr. 111.* ME repeated hi. observation, that they could
be properly printed fur hell this money, and be trusted
the Right lion. Gent. would attend to any offer that
might be made on the subject.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT assured the lion. Member such
an offer should meet with every sttentiou.
This Resolution was then agreed to.
Oa a Resolution being proposed for 3000/. for con-
fining Criminal Lunatics,
Mr. HUME said, he believed several individuals were
confined who were perfectly sane. Ile particularly
alluded to the case of an individual named Macintosh,
who had been tried for forgery, anti aennittell on the
ground of insanity. Ile bad since been declared sane
by the Physician., and had petitioned the !louse, and
applied also very freTtenily to the Ilotne Department.
The man certainly wrote too midi, but the efteorthes
seritendi was surely no ground for keeping him in con-
finement. The lion. Member referred also to the case
f Hatfield, who had attempted the life of his late Ma-1
jesty ; and bad since been considered as sane. lie (Mr.
Hum) thought the House ought not to vote money for
confining persons who should be allowed to return tol
society.
Mr. IiF.NNET defended the ronduct of liorernweent.
Most of these individuals had }teen tried for murder, or
attempts to commit mittler, and the fiavernmeot had
released many where they thonOit they could iLt so with
safety. Many of them appeared sane while confined,
but no doubt would break into violence the moment
that confinement were taken oft Government could
have no motive in confining any one of these persons
ten initiates moie than was necessary.—(clear.)—lle
knew the establishment was conducted in a very laudable

manner.
Mr. 11. ('LIVE shortly supported the Vote, on the
grounds urged by the :wit Speaker.
Mr. W. SMITH said. there was ihn establishment less
likely to be abused than the present.
Mr. IirNIC and Mr. Cs.tvi: mutually explained. and
the Resolution was then agree:l to.
The next Resolution was for 1i,6:11/. for retired
lowances and Compensation% to Persons holding
Offices in the Public Service.
Mr. lICME said. he thought this sum ought to be
charged to the Civil Lil*.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, the indi-
viduals were Centrally Sll years old. There could be no
rational doubt :I !lir propriety of this Vote.
Mr. lICNIE explaiueil.—lti% complaint was
pally against the allowance to Consuls, whose ditties
were generally very few, and were often imperfectly
discharged.
Mr. RODINSON said, the subject of allowances to
CO11'41119; W. 15 under consideration ; but it was trait cast
,to detine the %roper allowance. be iterest of the
countryerm required that the Constds sh'fouldn be properly

. _
paid.
Mr. AP.BUTIINOT said, that of the individuals in.
citified in this Vote, lie could at the moment mention
of 7S, one of 1. and one of SO years of age.
Mr. W. SY. rril said, that a classical importance 11;111
Cern given to the name of C.instils, an iniportince
quite unconnected with their duties. lie knew the
ease of a Con Ail who had misbehaved himself, and he
had no doubt that in time that Consul in his turn
would claim a comensation. fle refrained from naming
the person, lest it might -"honk'. hi (Mr. Smith).
hail introduced is invidiously.
Mr. Hume and the laririe.tii of Loicininierry run-
malty explained, anal the Ile,wintinn Was then it-lree,l

to.
On the grant of I SAM!: for the TouLtiese Emi.
grants and the Knights of Malta,
Colonel DAVIES observed, that as the individuals
for whom part of this grint was respired had fallen
into misfortune in their struggle against Buonaparte.
in the cause of the reigning 'Family of France, he
thought that they ought to be pensioned at the ex-
pence of that family. believed aissOlial the pre
sent Russian Minister. of •Prapci; Cuititt P 0220 Hi
Borgo, received a pension from this dosernutent.• Ile
wished to know if this was true ? •
Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that he did once re-
ceive a pension, 'Wile believed fit didnot now.—
When he did receive it; he was tui emigrant in this
country..
Colonel DAVIES was surprised that none of the
Right lion. Gentlemen opposite could give a positive
answer on this eubjert. Part of this vote, ti,ooll/. was'
.for the knights tif Malta. He did not know why these
people ahead tiir pensioned on this counter, and he
certainly was notincliued to agree to the vote.
Mr. ARIMJ lIINOT stated thnt. the provisions.
grained to the Toulonesr emigrante..was in consider-
ation of canals services rendered by those iinliridnals
to Lord llooent the time of• his taking Toulon. With
regard to the Knights of Malt*. they also were pen.

t.- .

sinned in consideration of essential segos readeret
to the British in the course df military Ind oral ope-
rations; but it was not intended to continue the
grants longer titan the present year.
The C I I AN C F. 1.1,011 of the EXCHEQUER observed
that the pension to the Tonlonese emigrants, ought to
be regarded in the light of naval half•pay. It arose
from Lord Hood, on his evacuating Toulon, taking all
the French ships with him, by which means these in•
dividuals were thrown out of employmeu., receiving a
promise of British protection.
Mr. BENNET said, that if these individuals sided
with a foreign enetny, merely because it was engaged
against their country, he would abstain from ap-
plying a hard word to them, but he would say
that he would not pension them for that. If they
joined with that enemy in the cause of the. Royal Fa-
mily of France against the Revolutionary Governm..nt,
then he could not agree to pay them for so doing, as
the present Government of France ought to do that.
Mr. 0OULIII:RN protested against the principles
laid down by the Hon. Gentleman, upon which he
called on this Government to turn round upon the
former benefactors of this country and say, " Your
conduct was so immoral, so wicked, that we cannot
think of giving von the reward we promised you to in-
duce yon to render those services." The principle
upon which the petition was granted, was a re-
ward for services from which we benefitted, without
reference to what other parties derived advantage from
them.—The grant was then agreed to.
For the sialarimof certain Officers in the Court of
Exchequer 7,000
The How-street Police Office, and the River
Thames Police Establishment 32.Ati7
Mr. BENNET did not object to the Grant from
its principle ; but he wished to know what was the
cause of its increase, when the police was in so bad a
state
Mr. SMITH agreed with his lion. Friend as to the
Inefficient state of our Police.
The Marques' of LONDONDERRY said, that at
no period of the history of this country was the Police
of the Metroissilis in so efficient a state. The increase
of expense had be,n caused by an addition to our Po-
lice fore of a great party of Ilorse and Foot Patrolc,
who had been added since three or four months back.
lie was ;sappy to state, that since this addition, there
had been a great diminution of crime, and if we went
on in the same ecurse, he hail no doubt we should
have as efficient a Police as the nature of the Consti-
tution would admit of. He was authorised to state
that tl:e Home Secretary's expectations hail been more
than realized in the effect of the additional Parole.—
Next Session he should have no objection to go into a
Committee on this subject.
Mr. HENN ET was glad to hear that his Majesty's
Government were at length awake to the state of the
Police of the Metropoiis. It was so iliefficient, that
the inhabitants of the Strand had been ohliged to club
together for payment of an extra Police to guard their
houses by night.
On the Grant of 2-02!. fir repairs of Henry the'
Seventh's Chapel being read,
Mr. RENNET batik occasion to ask whether It.
was their intention to take into their 'twit keeping the
public monuments o$ the Metropsd s. The state
of the monuments of art in Westminster Abbey I 1
and St. Paul's Cathedral was a disgrace to the coon-
try. lie did not know where the blame lay, for he
did sot know who was responsible. The bean and
Chapter of other Cathedrals in the kingdom took spe-
cial charge of keeping them in a state of repair
and eleaniiness; hut the low, money-loving, Were-
thirsting—(a laugh)—individuals who were similarly
situated with regard to the Cathedrals of this city, al-
lowed the magnificent productions of art under their
care to go to miter.
Sir C. LONG said that the national monum"nts in
question were under the Dean and Chapter. His Ma-
jesty's Ministers haul exceedingly regretted that those
persons who derived great profit from the exhibition of
these splendid works of art shoold not have thonght
it 111(9;10re:it on them to take care of what the 'obile
money had been so liberally bestowed upon. lie assnrcel
the Hon. Gentleman that they viewed with mortifica-
tion the manner in which the Dean and Chapter ut
IVestininster and St. Paul's hail conducted themselves
in this particular, and hoped that some power w
tnid
be placed in their hands, of rescuing them from the
ruin which appeared to menace them.
Mr. W. smrrit doubted whether the Dean and
Chapter of Westminster Abbey should not be required to
pay the 'lmposed sum far the repair of Henry VII. Cha-
pel out of their own funds, which were at present about
to be considerably increased by the sale of seats in the
Abbey, for the gratification of public curiosity. Ile
entirely agreed with the remarks of his lion. 'Friend,.
as to the state of Westminster Abbey. But the state!
of St. Paul's might be said to he even worse. lie had
lately seen that Cathedral, and he declared, that it
looked more like a receptacle for dirt and cobwebs,
than for the nubile monuments of our statesmen and
warriors, yetthe revenue of the Dean and Chapter :vas
very considerable, especially from the exhibition of the
public moonments.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that the expensC of Henry the Seventh's Chapel was
never defrayed by the Dean and Chapter of Westmin-
ster Abbey, but by the public, as this Chapel was the
eementory of our Hier. Ile knew nothing of the
conduct of St. Paul's Cathedral, but the Dean anti
Chapter of Westminster had within a few years ex-
pended no less than 10,00/. in the repairs of the

-abbey.
The tesolntion was agreed to.
1;pon the motion for a grant for the Establishment
of Sierra lone.
Mr. W. SMITH took occasion to say, that the indi-
vidual appointed as Chief Commissionyr for Sierra
Leone was a man who had received no regular educa-
tion, sad who was wholly incompetent to discharge
the duties. Sir George Collyer, the Commanding Of-
ficer on that station, had declared that Me. Gregory's
imbecility had contributed In a great measure to de-
feat the objects of the Commission.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said that he
hail transferred the appointment of the Commissioners
into the hands of the distinonished individual at the
head of the Admiralty, and Sir C. Robinsoa, the
Ailrocate•Ueaeral. who were best able to attest per-
sons of professional ability. With regard to Sierra
Leone no individual could be found, who was williag
to accept the appointment at 1,5001. a-year, and the
salary was consequently increased to 30004 e-year,
. with a retiring pension of 13001. Sash was the dread