The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-04-11 00:00:00

ME STATESMAN.

mously increased. He was satisfied that no Minit-
try ("Held art usefully, either fur the !Amour of the
Crow') or the interests of the People, artless they
sot cut with it sincere determination to reform the
al;usc.; in tin. public exi,cmdittire, the. abuses
i a riking front the
~,tillnicets increase of the in-,
luThcelf,tha VroWni wid ilin abuses in the frame
and clinstiptifp 01. Pnrliathent itself, which bad
lit
, arisen from the lnpse of. time. Thopresqnt measure,
I ie 'the vii:w ohich he had stated, as a pledge; of the
I divositiowrof the Houle to set about the &form of
1 abose:, should undoolardly have his support.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE 'disclaimed- aby
hostility toeconamical reform ; on the contrary, he
thought many rel'erins might be effected in the pub-
...tic expenditure, .hut it was to
_those where any ire-
: portliit stiving might rcallyle et-lei:tett, that the at-
tention
of the House ought, iii his• opinion, to be
directed, instead of measures like the present, which
would effect no saving to the public, and which were
therefore only calculated, by the manner of discussing,
them, to mislead the.pablic. . . ,
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that any benefit
that could he (Wired from the measure of abolition
must be very trifling, even if it were proper to adopt
- it ; on which he was not at present called upon to
give an opinion. The amendment of the Noble Lord
opposite was inconsistent with the principle of the
Bill. It was reasonable to suspend the granting of
offices in reversion for two years, upon the ground
stated in the preamble,—that cortaie enquiries were
going on in another place, which might have a mate-
: rail bearing upon the subject of retersiensie'but to i
' suspend the practice for twenty-eight years en such a
ground, was quite absurd. His Lordship then ad-
verted
to the subject of the influence of the Crown,
in and out of Parliament; and denied that it had at
all increased in the proportioo which some imagined.
There were not now more thiin one-half the place-
Men in Parliament that were there in the time of Sir
Robert Walpole; nor, from the change of feeling, _ .._ .

this stihjec., contending for the abolition of both re- . too, was the same influence over them at all esercis-
. versions and sinecures, against which he would use ed. By looking back to the history of that period,
the strongest terms he could hod) disclaiming at the they would 6nd, that Officers of the army had been
same time, any imputation against those individuals - dismissed for voting against Ministers. The great
who happened to be in the possession of either.— Lord Chatham and the Duke of Argyll had been so
Ilis Lordship concluded by moving to insert 1840 disitissed. With regard to the most importaitt situ.:
instead of 1814. ; ations in the army and navy, the first thought of any
The Earl of LAUDERDALE presumed it was Ministry now must be, to choose the most capable,
the intention of his Noble Friend, if his amendment without any regard to political connection or party
was agreed to, to propose an amendment in the Pre- feelings. Ministers would naturally and properly,
*amble, to leave out the words referring-to proceed- trete,* paribus, choose their own friends;. but the
iugs now pending in the House of Commons, other- very augmentation of our military establishments, as
wise it would be in truth a most alarming symptom, well as the change of times and feelings, rendered it
thet an enquiry pending in the House of Commoni, impossible to make' the offices connected with them so
with a view to the reform of abuses, was• to last till much the source of influence as formerly: It had
the year 1810. He would, however, support the been necessary to adopt a very different system of
amendment, in order to get rid of the repeated dis- • management. The practices which had formerly been
cussions upon this subject, whieli he thought considered as fair, would now he considered not only ;
tended grossly to
.mislead the public, and engender ' as unfair in any Minister, but hardly decent in a
a supposition that an important saving were to be: Gentleman. The influence of the Crown', therefore,
made,by it, which wa's not the fact. The whole ' was greatly overrated. As to the question of the i
'number of Offices held in Reversion (with the excep- ! abolition of the granting of offices in rever-
tion of three, to which regulations %sere already ap- ' sion, it had little to do with the influence of the
plied on the termination of the existireg interests), ' Crown. It was upon the ground of its merits in
did not amount to more than forty, and the whelp . other respects that it must rest. For the present,
sum to be saved, supposing even the whole of these however, lie thought it unnecessary to say any far. )
Offices to he abolished, which was no part of the ther than that the amendment was inadmissible. i
present meesure, would net •amount to More than.; • The Earl of MORTON thought the abolition
:1:0001. per annum. It was, therefore, misleading trenched on the Royal Prerogative; and that the!
the pentic to attach any impollance to this Bill, Prince Regent could not give his assent to a bill for
sereee in truth, would effect nothing for their benefit. ' that pn rime, without a violation of his trust. J
These repeated diseusilons also, upon so insignifi- : Lon' HOLLAND rose to cider. The doctrine '
cant a treasure, tended to prodece an erroneous opt- of the Noble Lord went this length—that there was '
eio'fi, that correrion was coliaaed to the higher at pre-aut:lo constitution in this 'country. Did he
order.; in society in bothllotisos of Parliament, mean to cat. tint the person invested with the royal
whereas the fact was, that since the commencement • authority m is net flee to give his assent to any bill .
of hi: entitle:ll lite the intlimuce of ;he Crowe in both ' offered for that purpcee liv the two !louses of Par-
Hoe es of Pai 'lament hail greatly climi.tishod. Thirty liament ? If lie did, it was saying that there was no;
or forty Parliamentai y Offices bid been abolished; existing- constitution—a latiefiage which was highly '
and with respect to the Army and Navy, it was an disorderly.
ascertaised fact, that at the seal of Sir Robert Wal- J The Kiri of NIOP.TON contended that he was in 'i
p. le's Aihniaistration there were more Officers of the' order. Fh., Preroeative belonged to the King ; and
Al fey and Navy in Parliament than there were at the Piineo cetild'ilet, without a breach of trust, di.;
the pres.-it intraciit. It was not in Parliament, but mini-`a it: !,art i: an Act of Parliament were assented ,
in the eliettiy at large; that the influence of the to, no Heels ell-mould be bound by it. '
Croen had increased, and in the coentri at large, Lord 1101.1. A ND protested agaiitst this mode' of
owhug to tlis immense increase of the Army and . reasoning.' With regard to the subject under discus- j
Na vy, :nal the Revenue, the itillttetice of the Crown sion, ha approved of the abolition on account of the.;
Lad enormously increased. Thus it wae, that in the principle, and declared that he would support the
event cf a change of Administration the influent-a of. Ament'ment-.
the Crown could not secure a majority in the 'House Earl GROSVENOR said_a few words in reply. 1
of Commons, but a general election was resorted to.' The Amendment was titerntited without a division, 1
The Earl of DA.IINLEY dill-reed front his Noble and the Bill passed through the Committee in its ori- j
Ftiond, in his general view of the subject; but ginal state.
agreed with him, that the preheat Bill w•ts of little I
importance. He thought, however, that as a coin-' lIOTS—E-01.7-CONI MONS. i
remeement of the reform of :::nth "s, w!tich t; as so An Account 1%46 deli“-red of the-quantity of Wheat, Oats,
anxiously expected by the people, it was in that point andoßdarley, imported during the present year, -to the latest ;
of view highly deserving their inardships'?ttention, peck. VEST brought up the Papers relativeto the Forgeries of
and it should have his support. the Rank of England and on the Miut, moved for on a (Inner
Earl Grmindisclaimed the opinions maintained evening by Mr*P"frigml"*. . • - , e
Mr. lIERNittl. unwed the second reading of tbe-Corlilind
by his Noble Friend (Lord Lauderdale) n epposi- ' Kerr% and the Kilkenny Road Bills i read a second tinsenand •
teen to econonlital Reform, and was anxious that he °”11,7(111° 4.CAnnriZe!.. iv . c ' Itee
the Legal •
(Lord Grey) should not be supposed to entere;;n them. BilLeSfrli'lVtlir,Ll,ZM (ZIA: in the Ciliair."Seveeral AQUillisqnll-
• 11., at the same time, so far agreed with his Noble meats were brought on and agreed to, and the report was order-;
Friend. as to'believe this Bill to In' in itself of little im. ed to' e reciiv&l on muneay,
vtsterestiniiallinan.-klau,c.tion Duty Bill was read a second time.— •
portanco—hut the principle of it was,lie maintained, Committee • .
of great importance—and when they contemplated tarnerai r;:tscott.s 17. moved, that the former order fnuhe
tr.r
nod; venti;u: tApartapeerrstreir ll.tsivdetn-troptltle
ornenaeweroalluotf
otpeinit::. a
tin Isayil!
the burdens under which the people were necessa-
rily suffering, the present Bill was of great import- and rel now moved for copies of all correspondence that had
once in this point of view, that the passing it would it7:tt
place beintuder.kil're ideontdoicothe liver Jo:war; of Bar
'be holding out the promise, and lie trusted he might reeiors of tri:;;East India (Compaaany, relativeeu
to 1 renewal of
say, the pledge, of a disposition to do etery thing in their exceasiee privileges, and also for the minutes of the Omni '
their power to relieve that pressure upon the peo. of liireetur4.—Ordered.
ere 4
st Ni'CURT OFPICIN.
• -pie nv- far at'it 'was possible to do so. ,The amount Mr. cat:„EvFx_gßve notice of a motion on Thursda3, amt.-
i that could be.savid by the abolition or regulation Of respect the ePerships "fibs Exch:ltir, held by Lord i!
- wth Tto
the offices now granted in. eeversieu, might be, as 311,1. k 1 gighaeme ;ireodi n itlierdl(.aart I(41:( lie 'I.
oformed the House, that the Rovil
.his Noble Friend had urged, very. trilling, but how Assent had been Oven to several piddle and private !tills. ' •
could they otheritise set about Reform ?—Was his
Mr. BEN NN I-. 1 r said, that MI Wednesday nest he should 'now..
co
Noble Fi iencrprePared to say, Ott with the present falonrringuatch7l"asntt seofirtenhe nu ninher of corporal punishments in theurtay
enormous phwer of France, the Army, or the Navy, scARCITY OF GRAIN.
or the Revenue could he reduced ? If tint, then ' Mr. CUR.WEN rose to call the attention of the
ought they not, in conforinity with the just expects- House to a most serious subject. He hoped the•
Lions of the rople, to set about relieving them from • Right Honourable Gentleman opposite "would 'give
the b::rthens or sinecures and useless places, in or- him full ereditler-his assertion,' when lie should my,'
. der to tithe off front the people, as far as it was pos. that it was with the greatest relactatice, andrby no
,sible to be done, at least a • part of the' pressure un- °means_ to create an unnecessary alaim, chat be
der which they were suffering? HiS Noble Friend brought under the onsidecation. of 'the House the
spoke of the influence of the Crown having dirni-1 prices of grain at the .present moment. So .arty.
!tithed in both Houses of Pirlianieut ,• but supposing ;*as November last, the Right Ilonoierahle Gentlenion
'that to be the case with respect. to direCt influence, i would recollect that he tub& a communication t. 4
was it notetlie fact, from the %est Increase 9f the I him of •the defitiency At' the crops, ned'suggeetteel.
army, the bevy; and other establishments, the,ietli- `the necessity of providing •against a scarcitrut prosj
-stet iollalloce of the Clown in Parliament had earn.- viOons. The consPetleen brtween' sttgar send` ,
'V , h •
IV - . •

I.

the G°ve
l''
itCold.i
istipor:ir:ttal7:it.tisGl
was then obliged to be put an end to; but now again Mr. CL: ;eve f.,. ei.
the alarm prevailed. Prices had no* risen unusually
i i werethe 1
111:aidgalli Itoo:lllOintet:t:re‘a'x°l:-:n1 ii;ititi tel'i .!I•liirs.h..,;ll:,:,;':ttilii:tnt.::a:m.t.n:oltn:l,lo:iiirs:e-terii:lc'eh:l:ts;:t;h°,eldrtlijeis‘c:':,le'vd,lt::l:ll:l:,l,l
t. to the 11111119 'llit‘
rhoigottyantdoewt ehliscdhis thuerb.beenicoensg,l7li
ot akert
which place
liresi
lost. These disturbances, so serious in their' La- I phseness did not relate
ture,!'were to be attributed solely to. this rise-in the i ward last year, be
"mime •f' provisiolis. He certair4 Was not of opi- , gwreauiiiidwololitcliiioaz,T•lasksrel:erricy.el by
Moil, thatiptre was not, even yet a aulfteient quan- 1
thy of grata sir the country, if that-quantity were : on Monday he should 'bring it under the coeed„,,,
.well husbanded ; but how could that be expected ' don of tl:e lious•:. This conduct of his, i
from a. troWersaiifrit liiiitiethiler-altinys !hewn- itself . ceived, could mot be considered premature, whet:
so suptne, where the iotereats. of agriculture were i had to inform the House,. that in Cumberland, e
1e con.
from
. 6
01 linn iitt. ce on
for instance, too . the disturbances had taken place concerned .--''!'loaf supinetiesi was,
evideut last 4reare when. the .Execothes.eritoyeernent , alluded, there wara rice of 30s.p a
qouawrtieirchoniiewbileweira':tr.;
suffered 2,01)0,(XX) quarters of grain to be imported. ; The House went through a
idle thought under the. present circumstances no time smid's Liquidation Debi Bill; and the Report s
was to be lost—not because &habit* wits to be ex- ordered to be received 0.1 Monday.
pwercato.ediy, ;;bevuotrbeeocauOtsheeilhoeweprresors(ulerer 'au! igThihebeicootmereesitnstooi
:'
Sir el. NEWPOIIIII.IIIIseeIei ledialyirtmloleanstkofathße..ial Imsotpll2tt.y
1 the lower orders might to be particularly attended Gentlemen opposite if :he Irish Militia taili-cer,l:',i
,! te, and to their wants ought -certainly be sacrificed been yet exempted apposite, if
lat all times the luxuries of the rich. He had a tax.
Mr. Secretary R YDER replied in a low tone cf
simple. and expeditious way of proceeding in view,
A.
founded on an attention to this principle which
voice. As far as we could understand him, he sa twh
ha
ot
ei
vnefuturehad
pt
ch edy
psrhoopuelrdt y bt ea a s
ioa etx:em pi
rt ,i s
ha ud
:Militia that
would, in his opinion, be a successful remedy for
,'the evil apprehended. There, were now about twen-
ty weeks before we could expect any supply of ; should have it refunded.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that when the Bill for
new corn. - The averoge consumption, of grain he
the interchange of the Militiawas before the House,
estimated at ebobt 200,000 quarters a week, and his
the Right Hon. Gent. positively stated that they
plan went to the saving.:of 600,000 quarters, which
s,hould be exempted. would bring ut. substantially three swat nearer to i
Mr. Secrotery RYDER denied his having made
,
. the new •suppiji.
~ Ilk plan was, in fact, nothinge .
such statemeht ; and Sir J. Newport made an ea-
made than a.recurrince to the provisions of the 41st '
clammier) of astonishment at the denial of the Right
of George HI which enacted that bread should be . any
made only of one quality. Bread *as now made of
three degrees of '-flour, and by that means on ever Hon. Gent. Which produced laughter throughout the
y house.
Tnhe rose, ,
the
Hon.EXCHEQUER
hßatart w. a hwtsatas said
' Winchester !Umbel of. wheat of 6011); there ,was a
CH
aAndNaCl:ssuLreLdO theit Right a
. waste of 91b.. • Bread of this description might be !
; somewhat more unpalatable to the higher orders, but
the
•in a case like the present, as ho before•said, it' was far es his recollection served him,
t the interest of the bulk of the .lower orders that when the Bill was before the House was, that the Of.
ought to he looked to, This measure would also leers generally should be exempt from the assessed
tend to Lessen the consumption of bread; and there- taxes. When the Right Hon. Bart. said that he tee
by to lessen the price of grain. When it was coast- derstood it in another way, certainly the Right Ho,.
• Bart: must think so; but then he dered that this-could not be possibly taken
.up as abelieved it to haw
-been just as he now stated it. When the bill was
' party question, he did not expect any opposition to
the suggestions he had thrown oat. • .pending, he looked upon the Irish Officers in the
I ' The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER WAS ' light-of persons compelled to be resident here, and
thankful to the Hon. for supposing -him • therefore liable to pay taxes only accordingly. Ar.
Gentleman,
candid enough to admit the merit of his suggestions raggements were, however, new made, completely
calculated-to remove every-ground of complaint es
on this subject last year. At the same lime he could
the part of the Officers.
not help thinking, that whatever deficiency of grain .
'there was (which certainty.hy no means countenanced- Sir J. Montgomery, Mr. Pole, Sir J. Newport,
any apprehension of a famine), the lion. Gentleman
, Lord Folkestone, and the Chancellor of the ExChe.
did not display much candour in attributing. that de- . quer said each a few words farther, and the come
ficiency to supineness in the Government. If supine- 'sedan dropped.' •
ness had been manifested by the Government with I GOLD GOIN DILL.
.-respect to the agricultural interests at -any antecedent j The Order of the Day for going into a Committee
' date, that supineness did not undoubtedly exist last . on the Gold Coin Bill being read,
year, when the Hon. Gentleman himself
.opposed a Mr. PARNELL rose to move an amendilent,
1 permanent measure brought'• forward by him, and that the Committee. be postponed for • a fortnight.
which measure would have perhaps prevented the l When a Bill of the description of the present, which
i .
evil now complained of. It was not for him now to. was. to produce such a change in the currency of Ire-
question the policy of the Hou. Gentleman's opposi- i land, was about to pass into a law, he hoped that
tin then, because- that policy was sanctioned by time would be given for collecting, for the informa.
Parliament ; but at least, he conceived, that he had i.tioa, Of thp Members, every document necessarily
a right to say`thott 'he did not deserve the ceu lure of '.ctinneeted with the subject. • At present' there were
supineness, urged against him..-The intimation of the! no doeuinents before the.llouse to prove.the present
lion. Gentleman came after this sanction of Parlia- state of the currency of Ireland, and the delay he
meat to the opinions of the Hon. Gentleman himself; : proposed he therefore conceived• to be absolutely ne.
and surely it would have been extremely improper in i cessary. The Bank paper of Ireland was in a most
him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) immediately depreciated state, and this should appear fairly to the
to adopt a line of conduct condemned by Parliament. House before they proceeded to a measure which
Besides it was then by uo means a conceded point that . would, make that depreciated paper sebstautially a
there was any remarkable deficiency in the crops. As to • legal tender. In 1804, a 'Committee was appointed
the lioneGentleman's plane mentioned yesterday by to enquire into the state of the Irish currency.—
hitrefor making each acre ofground protiucettn addition ; That Committee consisted of tiane9 of the higheit
of two bushels of corn, he did,knnw whether the non- , authority in financial matters,—of Mr. Pitt, Lord
adoption of that was to be urged as a charge of su- : Castlereagh, Mr. Rose, Mr. Vansittert, Mr. Mate
pineness against the Government. But until an kct :, sting, Mr. Sinclair, Mr. Thornton, and others ;• and
of Parliament could-become effectull for their making their report- was, that the Irish Bank paper was
the soil additionally prolific, he thought he might he . greatly depreciated. Iu 1801, there were only le-
a little at ease against any such charge.--[A laugh.] tween 6 and 700,0001. of -notes issued by the Bank
—As to the suggestion of a remedy now made by i of- Ireland, and 'the exchange between London and
the Right Hon. Gentleman, since he had thoughts Dublin was only from 5+ to 64 per cent. against the
proper to mention it without any particular notice, I latter. Shortly after, the issues arose to 2,000,0001.
he did not conceive himself bound to say the Govern- • and 2,986,0001. apd the exchange was up to 18
meat would either adoPt or reject it. However, as against Dublin, while it was in favoUr of Belfast,
to the general expediency of adopting the measure of where guineas were the chief currency. Now, the
1801, he thought that it might be attended with less , Irish Bank Paper was still mare depreciated, for.
' benefit thnu teas imagined. The lasting impression : compared with gold, they were at a discount of
made. on Isis mind by that measure was, that more' twenty-five per cent. When he stated these facts to
mischief was done by the discussions-in Parliament"; the House, he hoped Gentlemen would not think it
I
ion that occasion, than advantage derived from iti . ioo much to pause for a fortnight, until their correct.
jadoptiOn. , Nothing, in his opinion, 'could be more , ness could be ascertained by
.official documents. The .
unwise than an attempt to meddle with the manner : present Bill, would-affect the landlords of Ireland is
!in which human food-was dealt coutlolheoeople. ' a emelt more serious way than the Bill of last year
Even in 1801, the Act bad scarely. passed, whets its 7afrected the landlords of England: ..iu ttglandlo'
enactments werefottod impoetsilde of eaecution. Ho leases were given, sad the longest were of 21 yeses,
hoped that his ttecliuing to 4iloptt the opiniest In fact, is England-the rents increased in the ratio
of the Honenera)sle
.GtetterrieeeAcighl•noge. et-- of tiSgepreeiation a tja eacceue.j(4.l.whilia*Jr•
triSuted to inalantion7to tit') inkiest* ,of. the Ititid,setiere.contracts of very long date were enthed
• public, or a'' disinclination to : look the evil io ; into, 10 such thing could happen. . ;The extension of
the face. -"Of, tilt. bther
.tlestiOns, this was the this Act to would, in his opinion, be very
One which could least' be supposed to tarry with it : unjuste because the situation of landlprds and le-
, any party-feeling; ow the-Contrary, *eery Member:, mints, and the nature of the Agreements hetweil
'must wish for a remedy es 'much. from,the dictates of , them, were so very different. A Gentleman, with
humanity as from motives oif the plainest interest.— . whom he was well acquainted, in that part of the
Another Method was 'looked' to .by some' Empire, possessed an estate of about 1,6001. a year,
people as
effectual for preventing the rise of. the price pf grain : and had been in the habit-of receiving his rents, at,-
' in Ireland, which he -could not 'Conceive calculated : cording to agreement, at 3s. 6d. iu the pound, which,
i for that purpose;--he meant the gt6Plling- of -distilla- :if this Bill passed, andßank-noteewere to be taken
i lion. That measure -Ise• was afraid, 'would only i for no more than their legal value, imuld actually
~ . year; and
' have tke effect of substitntiurillieit for legal distills.. • rob 'him of three hundred pounds a ,
den • and of the two, every one was aware, that., surely there could not be any
1, dvatttage to Ireland
besides the din-hastiest of -the revenue it preduced, ' front the extension of this Bill to it, when it weede
the former was by far the' mostsPhsteful. Though lie tike from twenty to thirty per cnit• from priest,
by no insane mNent-to`put• the dimbintiati *of 'the re-.. incomes, settled by agreements, n-nd contracts 0.!
venue in, competition with thiefeeding of the people, • -!long standing, For his o.vn -tart he i'n t see bony it
yet, when it "was al/owed on all bands that such as be • cond bereceisary, or what pssible bciteGt, to lc.
had described it was the aect of illicit distillation, : land could accrue from, it. Another point
ialuoph
he thought that by stoppiisg the distilleries, nothing : weighed With him sees, that ti i. Bill. was fours(
.0
but a••• accumulated Immure of taxation ivould.be the the confidence which Ministers and the House had i
that they
consequence; because, what- was taken off in one, the pirectors of the Bank of England,
0,
increase .their issues
_.l
quarter of the revenue, must he made up us another.' would not 'unnecessarily
He gave the Hon. Gentleman full credit for them- paper; but could they say they IradAhe samecontito
triotic motives which induced him to -mention this !deuce in the Directors of the Bank, of Ireland,
f *
busing'; -het *he looked to therm:dot nature of a :,had,•ies -1804, so far extended their issues o , pa
eernieiy,..not to aiii theoretical eilcalatiOns.; and he tta to reduce it in value up.veri's of 10 per:c.'d ,e,
was-very nedetjeconilnced 'that more mischief thae-,He submitted it, therefore, en the alloose 'that 0:
-benefit wealderittelltoot the adoption of the measure ;had stated sntileient voilaids firenqitiry, lutd move°.
he'reetwaniended....-- • , - that the word " now 'he le.rt ete, and the words
Vre.CURVV.EN, welt *boo to reply, when • 64 tliiiday feetnight" be suhstituted in its stead.
• The- 4PE4XItIIe informed him, that there was • Mr. G. twfoie
JOHNSTONE said, this Bill ;ape .
: tas ct to
.no.paotieetar question. before the House. the Ileiseat *present under et eery darnels Ps
e. . - . • • • "s- le • • . .