The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN,

that it was not a pretence, but that the real object collected from it, own provisions, and not be made to Involve a meat, not vengeance-they shoo id never interfere With iodic-
reople in rebellion and treason by sew constructions. No con- (crew actions; but, in this case, if a el aeiet rate was te take
was to petition Parliament. But either the Con- tructitm, however, could he pot upon the law as would in- hish own antoapatious of otrence for pet, what was that evil
vowtiow Act was nugatory and absurd, or else the yoke the Catholics in disobedieace. He was uo advocate for
arguingw mit a principte of this kind might nut engender? It wee
bodies of people assembling,
Magistrate must have power to act in the first in- large but he would prevent it its
the words of, the law, and not by tee inventicea of new words. aseekst alt inetantione, from the abuses to whirls
suet of f"ellir" -
stance, when Delegates were attempted to be elect. He bad
never thought, however, nor had he ever known, that they were eisseraily liable-tie col ruptiou to which the pees,
ed, for how was it to be known whether the oh- it was illegal for any man to delegate ethers for a legal purpose. was "hie would then become au argument for the &sieve-
ject assumed was a real object or only a pretence ? lon3e, ca.
ses
d , °fife twh on suel dLe the Noble wleelrroion the Woolsack, iwl 71yobethe piiiriple might, without
treyi
Parleiamterotediostiitll faitlicr, andlidt awe
He could not conceive in what way the proposed then presided in that Court, Did he ever charge them as being both lionseenq.i7e
Catholic claims could tranquillize criminal, merely because they were delegated, or was it because .with a consoling confideuce, whesa Phletilidls.that I hisewass mist
concession of the
, they
lase was
delegation to cover a different purpose, which
Ireland. Those Noble Lori who had enumeratedEnglish law; that such were not theprinciples u M which
. i pap se lllegal ? '
English law imilt its • • • . "
, oar impartial ibepcneatiou regulated.
the causes of discontent in that Country, had omitted The Earl of DARNLEY advocated the cause of • hut quittingW" groliell hr had taken epos the
some, to remedy which, would, lapis opinion, tend the Irish Catholics, and contended that Parliament ought to give, ,fair, obvious, ilallllll4l9ler ill
, d direct construction of this art, be hesitated
i at once, with a liberal hand, that redress which i
in a much greater degree to tranquillize the country, .t would heel:Kn.' . not to say, thet no construction that could be pot upon it,
pelted to afford in the end. The Irish were a brave, generous,
than the; proposed concession of the Catholic claims. 1 warm-hearted body of men, and if their gratitude wits called ' even by Minieters theuise!ves, coted resruc them from the
They had omitted to mention. the oppression of the I forth, they would not disappoint the expectations of their fellow cheer.. of wanton and gross misconduct throughout the whole
' subjects. He concluded bv ivin his best sup on to "mom .of those pioceediup-whether the Catholics bad been ca.
people through a double clergy, the oppression of , ,rhEarl of Buc Kr ,g PP the "`
NG HAMSIIt it,E insisted that preciously testy, or
_but justly indignant-whether their led
tithes, and still more the great evil of absentee pro-' the construction been obstinate or firm-whether they had been wrong or right,
bon put upon the Convention Act by the Judges was
perty and absentee landlords. He was of opinion ; consistent with the design of its original framers; and after se- were questions that did nut at all affect the iniquestioilable
that the residence of great men upon their estates, ' veral other remarks on this subject, he entered upon the subject fatuity of the Irish Government, It was a system of met-
a the Coronation
Oath, which he maintained, for the wisest rca- conduct uniform nail consistent in all the great principles of
tended more than any thing else to keep the rople sons, restrained the Crown fmnt acceding to the Catholic Ewan- erroi , and chegtfered with an alternate
made ession
of
fully
and
in good order, and in subjection to the laws. But as ciliation. He put it to the House, whether they would take ad- rashness-sitifieig from a timidity that deit contemptible-
,
to the proposed remedy for all the evils of Ireland, ! vantage of the continued indisposition of the Ring to du an act, to a desperatiou that made it dangerous. Of the fee famed
which they knew, from the commencement, had met with his proclamation he should then say nothing. He should have it
he thought that the frame-breakers of Nottingham Majesty's positive and uniform refusal. to the Noble and Learned Lord f
upon the W I k He
would be just as soon induced to put an end to their ; Earl GREY most ably supported the motion for pissed over its slovenly informality, but what a:tumid be 6'. •y_
depredations by a great motion for reform in Parlia- I going Into the Committee. He said that he had set-
u_ the attempt to act new, it, and are dignified WET 44
meat, as the lower order of people in Ireland would dom before addressed their Lordships under feelings that attempt. How nit II he nttenipt to describe the irritable
be benefited by the concessions which the Noble of greater embarrassment-not that there was .a.ay ; ovaakitrie. wwittthh wwilili.Crilh
itbli,:td4 been taken up, or the impotent
Lords, on the other side, proposed to make to the thing in the subject before them peculiarly didieult, !atbeir own coastrucit km, and malinenubsaenodrietdt.o cHrnedwenmunldithnekier
Catholics. His Lordship concluded, by expressing clouded or mysterious-not that he felt that thee own pracesination-ao person can 1w taken and committed to
his decided dissent to the motion. were any considerations of peculiar delicacy or eau-; prison ou charges for any other offences than either treason,
Lord motaA stated the abject of going 'into a : tion, that might deter him from a full and frank; felony, breach of tbhee %ace, or those cases provided for by
COmmittee was to discuss the state of Ireland;-tted dteedaslon of ttatnerits. And sure it was that his
I came ant tiler* stay ofe atrheesserr cfloarstshes in
(herethis P rtnhre4m;ot LI:
'any one of the circumstances that had been enume- embarrassment did not arise from the consciousness I Lord rend- 'the seemed section of the Att)- persons
rated was sufficient to call upon their Lordships to iof having to contend with any formidable reasoning Is° offending shall, when convicted-Win.t ? taken into
adopt that measure. Who could look at the state of , against the motion ; for he had hitherto listened to
d liaanodu
iiiii.s.toedge lodged in prisont ?-No-shalt be guilty of A high
that country and not say, that it would be the ex- catch one argument against it, and he had listened in constables, &c.- de. c. toeul y
those
po
ers:
' treme of folly, madness itself, to shrink from the vain. His difficulty therefore lay in attempting to sons so offendiug.-He challenged the Noble and Learned an
discussion? The Noble Lord who spoke last, had answer what did not admit of a reply, and to refute I the Woolsack to controvert bitu, when be said that the appre-
hension of such persons tinder this act was illegal-the Load
confounded the natural and the civil rights of the by argument what defied all argument.-Their Lard- I
1 Chancellor and Attorney General of Ireland did tons appear
'lrish Catholics. Standing upon the birth-right of . ships would believe, therefore, that he did not •
s at to have advised au illegal proceeding-and what did the Chief
1 Britons, they had advanced their claims with coati- ; that late hour, rise for the purpose of restating Justice (Downes)-he actually eummits yet eidas apprehended
' deuce: they have said, " feeling ourselves Britons, what had been already se forcibly put, and what by this proclimatioti-ei f e was aware that as the: person was
we address you as Britons, and we ask you whether ; there had not been yet even an attempt to answei : likely to heroine the subject of some civil actions for those
or not we are to stand upon an equality with you ?"aisfurtesitis: lete:ild I noti ile
haeste .
. it was not easy to contend with those who left you
ofit•ehliloto
hlospeakat t
it,hectuhiaeftt
Jeruntteinedeerlyl
This is the sentiment which a man born in a land nothing to grapple with ; but he could net sleep been guilty of a breach of judicig thal decorum, of extrajudicial
;
of freedom ought to feel-and this is the sentiment quietly upon his bed that night, if lie left that House interference, that did not become one who ought to have beets
which they have avowed. They have always ad- ; after hearing what he had heard within its walls, from
seinisible of the necessity of keeping persnually aloof
dressed us in the gesture of humility-L-they wish'. without making his solemn protest in the name which he shuismpaic,iiotowaian
stloorejotiobl: ocfaliseudchu denlitcoacylcaiodde ,
to receive as the boon of our generosity, what they I of the United kingdom, against tan impolicv, the -conduct of that kind was pregnant withP the worst
have a right to demand as a justice at our hands.- folly, and the madness of that blind, selfish, and consequences, as it had a tetoleocy to shake the confidence
He would exhort those who shut their minds and illiberal intolerance that had brought these countries 't.i. tithe. pnAhdlie,. in the impartiality, integrity, RUli purity
hearts against the condition of Ireland, to consider into danger, and threatened them with nodistant ruin. 'Bat I 1 thernctonnisdiuractt.nd thoefirrilibiltreirtel eticmiptreircians.
well what they were doing. He would implore them -Here the Noble Earl entered upon an eloquent every other charge; there was one from which nothing cool,*
to weigh accurately what would better effect the . exposition of the conduct of Ministers in enforcing rescue it-it was most impolitic-(Hear! heir!)-What was
object of
ithe Cathuhe Committee? The most laudable-.
inertness of Ireland :. and he would then have them ; the Convention Act, which, we are sorry, our Units the
h
think what its disaffection must be. .At a moment will not permit our reporting at full length. He was tomengattihfiocialct • ober
tame, f an
choolndouorra bi :led
;:different
ren ambition.n 1
mectil
ald the
pursuit?o
like this, when a force the most gigantic was pre- tint
arguing, continued his Lordship, the construe- He would be unworthy the privileges lie looks for-lee would
pared to act against us ; a force under the guidance tion of the Convention Act-they might construe, as not be worthy the few privileges that are left him-without
ambition of a freeman,. he could be At only to be. slave.
Of a man whose sagacity, whose activity, whose re- they please, still they are to prove that they were the
!Hear! bear! hear 'J Was ehere then any thing its the
',Weil
sources were confessedly great, was it prudent to throw right in enforcing it ? Suppose the Convention Act of the Catholic Committee that made this Intetfereuce ou the
from us the energies of Ireland ? Was this an hour was all that they pretend it is, does this necessarily part of the Irish government, a measure of policy ?-No tutu
to cast away our strength • to pluck off our breast- justify their acting upon it in the manner they have would be bold euough to say that there was -If there was
plate before we descended into the lists ?-The No- done ? But how is it they justify-the conduct of the bn:th.oing, ii.n the object, was there any thing in the maim
ble Lord had said, that the sentiments of this country Catholics was illegal, and therefore they enforce the might be ‘be."'„„YijerullieLviesurered,
astotLffecwterethattoludlijte:at---t tihre.is
were changed with respect to the Catholics. It was Convention Act ; but have they shewn that the .and was unusually. tranquil ; then wyhy impose, restraints-.
i los such thing,. and the belief of it was a miserable I conduct of which they complain was illegal.- unless they felt in that tranquillity, the stillness of deepair-i
delusion ; they too who cherished that clamour would What '. Was that the first instance? Did they forget Lao there were other. dangers no great, as earful, mid as mes-
sing as aav that weakness and emperasce have accumulatt d
*944 io the storm-they vsettkiiafallibly be &along 17‘13, when the Delegates were over bews end intro- la Ireleuel-we coneendiu fur our exastenee as a pee people
Its victims. He was utterly unable to.coneeive, indeed, ductal to his Majesty ?-The Committee then was, with the most formidable power-ag
power that was growing
why the refusal to grant any concessions to the Catho- he contended, the same as the Committee now exist- ie the double ratio of her advance and our decline. If at
(tics should be so pertinaciously persevered in. The ne- log. This, which now was loaded with every trhiss ahoduriof peril we could be suddenly scared' from our fol.
easily for the penal statutes was now entirely passed. opprobrium, and charged as being the nurse of dis- of
fe
the
nationals rm e
goointod
sense, wisdom-if
and
obeingrillgr/asehoovulltdoirlerroapaei teshbrsooldg
What danger could there possibly be to the Esta- I content and tumult, and sedition, was at that time back her train of virtues, beueficente, couiliatios, amid ins-
bushed Church ? There was nothing in the quality 1 unmolested. What, he asked, was the character of tice-" Good God !" exclaimed Lord Grey, " what might we
of these statutes, the repeal of which can affect the the Catholic Body at that day, when they had their not the"
ta hope for! What could we have to fear though
~
security of the Church. A greater peril was incurred I Delegates and their Committees in every part of
rehreanr,.ehearvE;rBopuet-ifthwouhfthe
wEinraorpeelawyeisrehisagnootlorter
rFerssonocreee?s
in the present system of intolerance, for in propor- lreland I The preamble of the Bill passed at that with a desperate profusiun-while we are drying up the source
tion as Cie Roman Catholics were rendered disgust- ' time in favour of the Catholic concessions, recites the within us, an excessive taxation operating on diminished
ing to themselves, in that proportion they were ran- cause of them, by describing the " peaceable and le-
-1
wealth-while we are on the eve of a war with America,
dared dangerous. The boast of. the Church of En g- , gal demeanour of the Catholics," and yet at this very wi arc to tehagehaattiwyethciannghbut purcewhoartuwn'etotioatiynn!rtelfazar,
land had always been, that it appealed to the hearts : time they had their Delegates and their Committees, The Noble Earl proceeded to allude to scone of the observe.
and minds of Englishmen, and it had hence become I but this did not merely prove that the existence of those assent- tious of a Noble Lord opposite (Rosa), which, be confessed,
one of the main bulwarks of the freedom of this coon- i ItteiresoVtehreel.cutthiolliCiOcsthlitUttitwiptrhaytheed patiestwcr,i, loyalhat wtis,tahnedignetentooref surprised him, recollecting, as be did, to have read some
try. It was an establishment so wisely constituted- ! time Legislature at the time of its passing this law. In fact, the ia eloquentvoor sopfsecates
cosf thattieN octailueseLordN'so,w4, henfor Sir
eL L. Parsons,
try.
so admirable in all its relations-so powerful in its °Ntirtitnorf dientiatwo was,
re v
prevent
tt t O
such interfere
n.rat
mtilteas l laws with those
11 t 8 omrewt of
a had a measure of unusual coerciuto and severity against
component parts, that the greatest curse which could 1 Ontti.,,ann'on), and thatp which was to have taken place of' all the the Catholics been resorted to, which, with all the feet-
fail upon this country would be its overthrow. Yet ; Irish Delegates at Athlone-to suppress General Meetings and tags against the Catholic claims which we supposed to
if it rested upon temporal power, it would have the I la; eutr• 3la
t Deteergtaitmese* o:4)f mtlifinhgastlta; Alcetintanetrl intention
°thus,. Leg
is- 1 awnaisminotea
situationb i s Slajestoty , j
lit
of
fentehra
ibeet:a t
real htoquogth tb
joafhilbgedtoi
oh:
fate of every religion so supported ;it would have the ias to the Act itself-and, tint, he did not hesitate to say, that 1 This measure had been reserved to darken the prospects of
fate of that very Catholic Religion which was now the Act was a declaratory one—it was 50 described by Lord 1 the government of a Prince to whom the Irish Catholics
the object of their discussion. Be should decidedly t:itraruee ande 1111 tti.
said,i'!fee,: iteelyNagoble
last yen,
Lea, rn
thatedit %%raid
luiperol
yds: !
The
NleobenkaLccusttomed to look up to as their brighthuthhho7
support the motion of' the Noble Lard who opened i declaration of that to be law which was law before-look at its : betaibe di joined fiwomarnteldit them b
countryto
think
by theo
slerriecao'nwlecnirptuoes
this debate. Procrastination had beets very lavishly i ptirtiocvTdcititerethahtetl=;'ltW tasitselelbrHieserls
abound hot
rindeetto
for the abe sn Ara_Ct 1 treatment which was now practised towards Ireland. As to
dwelt upon by the Noble Lord who spoke last; it jewfgpetitioning--here there was nothing made mil-add' the Veto his denied that ever he ur his Nude Friend (Lord
seemed to be a favourite word with him. He (Lord which had been lawful-lt was not the pretence that made the j Grenville)hnd ever considered it as of indispensable obligation.
even the pretence of petitioning sa- l The Noble Lord intimated it tit be his intention, if °tithing
Moira) should be sorry to see procrastination now assembly __ 1,1.
cre aringattamwstibolnpnietitioiiing was) not even the pretence I farther could be obtained, to bring in a Bill in the course- of
employed. The question pressed upon them not for of it could legalize nolast ful assemblies.—Aud here he must ad- 1 the Session, for liberating all Military Officers of every re-
al)), inexpedient speed-but it required their lame- 1
avienreit
ate onete'il latorth%w I' curiouse stina.iteitneant,spzahiNeotble Earl
o bad
Protestant
' elusion frum the disabilities under which they laboured, and
diate declaration to the People of Ireland, that they and Catholic, and thaa7nowsasuchlinias A delegation woes known is
was happy to find that to
vthet measure he should receiveh the
e
were alive to their interest. Let this declaration only this county ! Delegation not 'mown in England! Why, there
„ sliaollippeodr its Gad, t that Noble
b the isecouetoo(aLorfdpaSrtidi
linen itt 2nd t I 41
go forth, and their deliberations might then be per- I was seaec y a canal projected without a tde egatine-
wag there: Country, the criers likely to beproduced in Ireland by the
, no meeting of delegates an LSO? no doubt, a period of real Yt
sued with every solemn slowness which wisdom could I tumult, but still amidst all the complaints then made o the persevering firmness (as theywere
that
to call it) of Mime-
outnagesand excesses teat prevailed, was there a single murmur ; ten, might be prevailed, sud emiciliatiou would now
suggerte
agates tbe meeting of delegates ? The Clamber uf Commerce wars ' at lento h. h* reserted to.
Lord M ITLG RA VE was of opiuion, that too much another instance-but they bsd been resurted to cowitantly in Ire- j The Earl of LIVERPOOL defended the coadact of the
was asked. Ile was disposed to grant every indulgence, bathe j land since the year 17.57,when, in the administration of the Duke I uvernmeut of Ireland.
must consider that the best interests of the country ere at itake. lof Bedford of that day,thefirstdawn of a more liberal polic.eopen- Lord GRENVILLE, in an eloquent speech supported the
The Roman Catholics could never be relied on as subjects of this : ed upon I reind-there had not been' time since that era of which
motion for a Committee • bat the advanced hour iu the thorn.
country, being snider the spiritual direction of a person who 1 there bad not been a Catholic Committee. As to certain niceties . . ... . ,
was under the controul of the euerny. They were told that the of verbal construction, he should not affect them. He thought" lott
1 renners it impossible to enter into it.
The Howse then divided, when the nitinbers were—
Roman Catholics were not represented. With respect to their that the best rule was to adhere to thetnoregeneral and ordinary
Contents - 42 Not Contents - - 56
spiritual intereeta, this might be the case. bit their civil interests . acceptation of the words in dispute. He was not prepared to
Peuxies • - • 76
were sufficiently provided for by a Protesuun representation.- say that the word " pretence" was ex vi termini a false per- Proxies --- 37
He reminded their Lorrl,hips of the attachment of this country to pose. In the statute that had berm referred to, the 131 h Charles —79 -----l6e
the Protestant Relielon and of the apprehensions entertained IL it was the falsehood of this pretence constituted the crime. Adjourned at Half put Six o'clock.
here when it was supposed tat the Roman Catholic Religion Here the Noble Lord entered into an examination of the word- ! —,....,
- -lin the aeccudauce Ile wasagainst the encomia:4a ! •of this statute, to shew that it - - the doing - than the 1
the re- -

might gm..
grant of all claims, without regard to thi;Churck of England.—
Should he not oppose this measure he should consider himself as
betraying that duty he owed to the country, to the Home, and to
his Sovereign. Ile wished them tristand where they were, and
should never give his assent to such a Motion till he was con-
vinced that there was no reason for refusing the Catholic Claims,
and that the Catholics would be satisfied with them.
Lord ERSKINE expressed his astonishment that
their Imrdships should patiently wait, unresolved and uwresOlv-
ing, till those demands came which certainly would come, for
petitions were preparing in every part. They seemed deter-
mined constantly to refuse all react...alma, beranse no speeide
claims of the Catholics were before them. lie had, however, so
often given Lis opinion upon the subject, that be should oat, at
that late hour, repeat them to the House. It was gm
however. for him to hear the Roman Catholics a • as they
bad been, and that arraignment the foundation or rejecting
their claims, while it was, too, a false arraignment. Ia advert.
jug to the prosecutions that had lately been instituted MAR*
those who assembled to prepare petitions, he believed Mei
be illegal, because they proceeded upon a coostroetini• Of
the Act of Parliament, not fairly deducible from the
Al 4—
; they had assembled, under the pretence of petitioning,
to overawe the Government.- then there would have bees
grounds for prosecu'ion. The only charge against tbe Ca-
tholics of Ireland was, that they had mistaken the coastroc-
non of the law; and th 6 mistake bad arisen from its ambiguity.
ft was his opinion. that there was an abinelast dlißwestee be-
tween the. Common and Statute Law of the Klegdons. The
Statute Law ought to speak for Itself* its maaetiag shoidd ba
•

lag was _ other s.
p .rpose of meeting that made 'the meeting au unlawful one,
and theo, upplytng dos to the Convention Act and the Catholic
Meetings, he argued that they. could not be presumed to be il-
legal on their own avowal of the purpose of their meeting
until there was evidence that they met to do something
else. They net for the express purpose of potitioning—
Oat express purpose did not make them an unlawful meet-
leg, bec.mte It was nut unlawful to meet in order to pet Rion—
.tligy could thee only make themselves an ant twiol meetiug
iiroceeiliug to do something iu violation of the Act ; then
there must be evideuce of that illegal act, and the only act
that can make them an un!awftil meeting, would be, that which
was contrary to, and in violation of the express purpose of
their meeting. And here be could not pass over the strange
remittals% of the Chief Justice upon this part of the ens.—
What said the Chia Justice, world you have the Magistrate,
or hi, Constable wait till they saw the illegal art done, and
nut prevent it ? was he to wait till the assembly had done
'same act, *hen they might immediately after disperse them.
selves ? This was a kiad of reasopbig which he (Lord G.)
thought to he moat dangerous and fitely to laid to error and
abuse of else mud extensive latitude He could not think
with that Learned Judge, that the principle in this case was
. Merely to prohibit, or that prohibition was, so applied,
a good in itarlf. He rather thought with a Noble Marquis
(Wellesley). who lad Mid a. eloqwently that all restrictions
were is Sliedemelves eviar—it waseerbduly wise to prevent—the
6 ',Ned of oil seed hews woe prooeutioa,e4t eoloodyi pueieb.
•

THE STATESMAN.

I

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• -


•~:

LONDON:
SATURDAY, FERRUAICY 1,181 t. •
The Debate last night in the House of Lords on
the State of Ireland, will be found very interestiog.
The Motion was favourably spoken of by Marquis
WELLESLEY, but he voted agmlist it on the ground
that be did not think this a pf.qper time to listen to
Claims of the Catholics ! Lord MOIRA, Lord
EnsimE, the Marquisses of LANSDOWNE and
DOWNSHIRE, the Dukes of BEnTonn and DEVON',
SIIIRV, Lords SomEas, CARTSFORV, GREY, and
GRENTILLE, warmlylsupported the Catholic Claims,
which were opposed by Lords ROSSE, ABERDEEN,
SLDMOUTH, WESTMORLAND and LI-
VERPOOL. On a division, which took place about
half-past six o'clock this morning, the motion of
1.1 Ord FITZWILLIAK, who introduced the subject if
bate ; was negatived by a majority of 83—there
"g. 79 for the motion, and 161 whist it.

~,,