The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-08-05 00:00:00

MEETING OF THE TOWN COUNCIL

The fourth quarterly meeting of the Town Councir*as
held on Wednesday, in the Council-chamber within the
Town-hall. The MAYOR presided.
Mr. RICHARD RADCLIFF& read the proceedings of the
last council meeting.

FINANcg CODIIWITTEE.-THE CONSERVANCY AND

OTHER LOCAL BILLS

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE said that on the last occasion
when he moved the confirmation of the Finance Committee
proceedings he referred to the progress making in the several
local bills which the council was then seeking. On that occa-
sion he was able to state that the Borough Courts Bill and
the Health of the Town Bill had passed the legislature, and
that the Improvement Bill had passed the House of Com-
mons, with every prospect of further success ; but, with re-
gard to the Conservancy Bill, difficulties had arisen of which
he did not at that time see a satisfactory end. He had now,
however, the pleasure of continuing his report, and he
thought it was one which the council would receive with sa-
tisfaction. With regard to the Improvement Bill there was
more difficulty than he anticipated in its passing through the
House of Lords. It was now, however, the law of the land,
and"he trusted there was nothing in its enactments of a harsh
or a Utopian nature. Those enactments would be carried
out by the magistrates, who were anxious to be moderate as
well as firm in the execution of their duty, and they would do
their duty without the aid of common informers. To them
the bill offered no encouragement, and he thought it would
be found there was nothing in the bill which would not re-
dound to the credit of the corporation and the advantage of
the community. With regard to the Conservancy Bill it
was surrounded, as be said before' with difficulties. They
were in great jeopardy with it, and most of those in whose
care it had been placed, were at one time of opinion that it
would be desirable to withdraw it from the committee
of the House of Commons. It was threatened upon
the one hand by the landowners, and their opposition
was an indication to him of the value of the bill, and on the
other by the government themselves, who suggested clauses
to which the council could never consent. The bill, however,
had now become the law of the land ; and though it was not
exactly in the shape in which it had met the approval of the
council, he was warranted in saying, there was no alteration
or amendinent in it which need detract from its value in the
eves of the council. The main object of the promoters of
the bill was to prevent encroachments upon the river; and
they considered that the maintenance of it from encroach-
ments, was best secured by scouring the present estuary, and
the water space above the town, thus maintaining as nearly
as possible, the same quantity of water, which now, with the
influx and reflux of the tide scoured the channel to the sea.
That object had been secured. Interested as the council was
in this great and 'important question, they had a right to
look with jealousy and apprehension at every yard of land
which the short sighted policy of the landowners abstracted
from the river, and they had a right to contend, as they suc-
cessfully did before a committee of the House of Commons,
that not a wharf should be built, or a stone put in, the river
within the range of a 21 feet tide, which was one of the high-
est indicated in the table—that nothing of this sort should
be done till the Corporation of Liverpool through the Town-
Clerk, and the other parties equally interested, who were
mentioned in the bill, should have had notice of the intention
of the parties intending to make those erections. He did
not mean to say that those erections might not be made with
perfect safety ; in nine cases out of ten they might, and to
them the council would not offer the slightest objection ; but
Upon the other hand, it was desirable that all doubtful cases
should be well discussed, that they should be well examined
before the suspected nuisance was created, instead of
afterwards. That was the'real essence of the bill ; and that
was as much as they had, in the first place, contemplated ;
but the government having considered that this was the pro-
per time to deal with the question in a national point of view,
suggested clauses which had for their object the appointment
of conservators of the rivers, and to those clauses they had
consented, Government proposed that the conservators
should be, the first Lord of the Admiralty, the Chancellor of
the Duchy, and the Chief Commissioner of the Woods and
Forests. To those functionaries all parties could look with
confidence ; whether the corporation, the dock trust, or the
landowners—all must equally feel confidence in their high
honour and integrity. It was proposed to invest those func-
tionaries with those powers which the crown only possessed,
and none other. There was no interference with the existing
rights of the dock trust or the corporation ; but, in order that
there might be no mistake arising as to what the powers of the-
conservators were to- be. they had been defined in the bill,
end divided into active and passive. The active powers re-
lated, as would be supposed, to improvements in the river,
the carrying on of large and important works, dredging, I
raising of wrecks, and any improvements which the parties
chose at their own expence to incur. The neutral and pas-
a!ve powers were those which related merely to the inspec-
tr of the river, the abatement of nuisances, the receiving
reports and ordering of plans when they were required at
of
instance of the council or the other parties. The council
would have been satisfied with the passive powers, as amply
sufficient for the purpose of the corporation, for the corpora-
tion had always intended that it was their duty to
retain, the navigation of the river rather than improve it.
They wished to keep things as they were ; besides they
considered it was rather an anomaly to have active
Powers without possessing the means for carrying those
active powers into operation. The government, how-
ever, and the committee to whom the bill was referred,
thought differently. They felt it was right, and that the
Proper dignity of the conservators required, that the conser-
vators should be invested with the symbols of active power;
they said that opportunities might arise when such powers
would be useful, that other parties through their instru-
mentality might put the commissioners into motion, so that
the improvements made through them might be more use-
fully carried out than they could be through any other quar-
tet. In that view the deputation ultimately, though not
without some reluctance, acquiesced. He knew very well
that there were persons, many perhaps, who objected to these
active powers ; he knew that they looked upon them only as
the seeds of some future legislation, that the conservators
might some day or other he seen going to parliament, and
seeking for fresh powers either to attack the corporation or
to carry on works at some distant part of the river with
which the corporation had no concern ; but he had the great-
est confidence that both parliament and the commissioners
would prevent anything of that sort. On the other hand,
•
he did say that if any well-digested scheme of improvinent
should be suggested, the corporation would never shrink
from giving it every consideration, and that they would not
refrain from incurring expense upon distant parts of the
river, if they thought they could by it promote either the
commerce of the town or that of the country generally. He
thought however, that such occasions would seldom or never
arise. He thought the conservators, through their inspec-
tors, would agree with the corporation in their views rather
than otherwise, but still, if the opportunity should come,
the council would not be afraid of considering the question.
These were the views which he entertained, and he had also
the support of the Dock Committee in this business, through
Mr. Sands, the chairman, who had been with him in London.
He had also the authority of Mr. Horsfall to the same effect,
and now that eie bill was passed, he hoped the council would
receive it with thankfulness. Year after year they had been
striving for legislation upon this subject ; and although it
might not flatter the vanity of the corporation so much as it
Would have done had they been named conservators of the
river, still he thought the bill was much more likely to work •
well as it was. There would always have been jealousy and
tixlPense attending their movements ; and he thought, upon
Whole that the bill was far better as it stood now than
before. flaying troubled the council at some length on thb
subject of this bill, he would conclude with a hope that it
would be a long time before the corporation of Liverpool
attempted to apply again for local acts of parliament. They
ust be Satisfied with the law of the land. They had but
few friends in parliament. There were certainly local corn-
mitt
one cause appointed, but generally the members of them, from
eee cause or other, were opposed to the interests of Liver-
Pool ; and although they had the government with them, and
rote de member in Lord Sandon to promote their
tze erests, still it would be the best policy to be satisfied as
they were' Mr. Lawrence then expressed his regret that
puti6
atUalace. pommittee had been reluctantly forced to de-
sifi °lnPliance with the prayer. .of the Literary and Scien-
m_c.lnstitution, in St. Ann'sestreet ; and he concluded by
viig the confirmation of the proceedings. ,
tb 'r• PLATT said that some months ago it was suggested
b at there should be an inspector of the river appointed on
_c.enalf of the corporation and the Dock Committee. It ap-
p ared, however, that the government only were to have an '
lusPector.
Mr G
ie • H. LAWRENCE replied, the fact was, that under
thmil the corporation, conjointly with the docks, would
Lne an inspector to be approved by the conservators of
e river. £6OO per annum was the only expense they would '
of to under the bill, which included not only the salary
ue inspector, but thisp of notices and various other
?I:ges arising out of duties.
-fr• Arlene said, lie should not have risen if the Chairman
th
of e 'Finance Committee had not stated that he trusted the
%leoration would receive this bill with thankfulness. fie
tie Aikin) could not consent to receive it with thankful-
-4 s2* He remained of opinion, that unless the bill could
lititvreoPel pbt4itipti in the shape in which it was originally
ucei into parliament, it would have been. much better
feetaye withdrawn it altogether. That, indeed, was the
was ng on the part of the council the last time the subject
bill before them. He was sorry to say, however, that the
late had become the law of the land i therefore, it was too
what) exress either approbation or disapprobation
Cr council approved or disapproved of the bill as it
Stood
Auld," a matter of very little consequence. This bill had
first rg,°.fle various phases since its first introduction. The
of ~,oujeet of it should have been to obtain for the council
dep'7pol the power of appeinting conservators ever the
ends upon which, indeed, the well-being of the port
e
In that shape, the council had approved of the
beeaus e regretted that they had solicited the bill at all,
situelee the object could have been obtained in a much more
He brauner, and be much more available than it was now.
Power sttf'sgeeted, when the corporation first came into
bills as the Municipal Act, to insert clauses in various
the
ceoe LneY were proceeding through parliament, giving to
rPOrat,ioll, an to the dock trust, the power of regula-
ting. et, bye-
ever, „jlaws the estuary of the Mersey ; demands, how-
urge'dre tuade on the part of the public, and the council were
laws to regulate
the steam-boat companies and others to make bye-
° regulate the exit and entrance of vessels to the port as
secured
spower lay then with no one; but if such a clause had been
all at that time it would have been approved of gener-
they, conservancy
thus, step by step, the council might have obtained
and ensrvancy of the river. Instead of that, they went
proclaimed to the world their determination to have the
coliery
ancy of the river in the shape of commissioners. To
that great opposition was
dangers also, until at I made, and difficulties arose, and
the dock trust had sunk the corporation of Liverpool and
named in the bill at all:
lege of paying a sum of insignificance. They were never
mexcepting to give them the privi-
money, to be expended onoduey, and indeed the only sum of
Li-
verpool had had such a bill under
rrthe bill. If the council of Li-
ment of the country, eon, cotZbuipon them by the govern-
haveeive complained ; all must
seen that it was wise for th
question upon which the well-bein goofvernrnent to take up a
pended, and with which the trade of the county great estuary de-
mutely mixed up. If the government had was so inti-
missioners from the admiralt, the woodsd appointed corn-
the Duchy of Lancaster, ally would have baud forests, and
consistent, but why the corporation of been niatural and
thankfel for a bill that gave tq these departmee:ta should be
of carrying out the did appear to him the power
strange, and a waste of the money of this town, exceedinglyt
litct, making those departments lords over us, t wcalsme'
Itud control us. It did certainly appear to hiom, thate
in soliciting this bill they had been PraYing for Kin;
Stork, who would prove much more dangerous than the King
Log, whom they had had previously. As allusion had beeng
made to the interested classes, and as it had been stated
Positively that no expense could be incurred by this corpora-
tion beyond £6OO per annum, he would say that he should
be much mistaken if it did not cost £6,000 per annum, and
that not only would it be found expensive, but excessively
t reublesorne. If the bill had been solicited at all, it should
Dave beenent inasmuch as it was
for a solicited by the governm .
hi'
Pu ' es of it paid out of the
Public re I erpose and time expenses oney,
Finance Committee had been
As it was, the
doing
what theyhave done, particularly as it
was understood Ought not to
unless the bill could be
Passed in the slm'a under, that u
Finance Committee
were authorised toPe which the
d be better to with-
draw it at once. Atn•oceed with, it would
that Mr.
Horsfall, the d Tr. Aikin concluded by stating, ,
ePuty-ee • f the Dock Committee,
coincided with him airman
thatbeen with-
drawn if it could nthe bill ought to have
.b.
not
• its original state.
Mr. SANDS said that have been obtained in
by Mr. Lawrence and Mr
the council having been Id orrned
part in this bill, ahn Mr• Aikin that he bad taken seine
moments' attention. e
Itm might be allowed to occupy a few
_
expect of him after the was no more than the council would
attack made, not upon the bill, but

partly upon himself, and partly upon the promoters of the
measure, that he should make one or two observations in
reply. Whether or not the bill was approved of by the
council, he would say that those who had given the most
consideration to the subject approved of it ; and the remarks
of his friend would have a tendency to deprive the chairman
of the Finance Committee and himself of that self-congratu-
lation which they had been rather disposed to indulge in
upon having obtained such a bill. They considered it a good
and valuable measure for the town, and he was quite sure it
would prove so in its working. It was well known that to
preserve the present scour at the mouth of the river, it was
necessary to preserve also the same quantity of water which
there was now in the upper part of the river. Without this
we should soon have had no channel at all ; in other words,
any diminution of the tidal flow of the waters in the upper
part would pro facto diminish the scowering power at the
mouth ; but he thought the bill would secure all that. They
knew the many objections made by the landowners against
the bill ; and he might refer to what bad been proved when
the bill was brought before the committee of the House of
Commons—that upwards of 1300 acres of land had been
abstracted from the river; and, if this abstraction was gone
on with, what would have been the consequence? Why, the
navigation would have been so much impeded as to render
the port almost useless. He thought, therefore, they bad
done well in securing the bill, and he trusted that, as the
chairman of the Finance Committee bad said, that the cor-
poration would receive it, although some individuals would
not, with thankfulness.
Mr. BiaxErr said that having taken a most decided
course of opposition to the bill during its progress through
the Finance Committee, and having also urged his objections
to it in the Council, he felt called upon to state why he gave
his support to the measure as it now stood. He believed it
to be a very good bill for the town. The real state of the
case had been put by Mr. Sands, whilst Mr. Aikin left the
gist of the matter totally out. He had talked about steam
companies having applied for a better entrance and exit;
but what it was most necessary to preserve was the back-
water. The bill would do this, which they had not the
power to do before ; and how was it to be done ? Why, they
had now the power of the crown put into a shape, that it
could be called into action immediately ; and he would ask,
whether the present constitution of the Conservators was not
likely to give greater satisfaction than if they were a commit-
tee of the Corporation ? No question of it. Would not
parties who were desirous of making aggressions upon the
river, feel more afraid of going against the parties who were
now Conservators, namely :—the first Lord of the Admiralty,
the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and the Chief
Commissioner of Woods and Forests. Men of their office
and rank must, of necessity have more power than any com-
mittee which the Council could appoint. Having stated
that in his opinion the bill was a good one, and he was glad
it had passed, he could not sit down without expressing his
surprise that Mr. Aikin should have spoken in the terms
which he had. He might be wrong, but it was his deliberate
opinion, that Mr. Aikin and his party had been the cause of
the want of success ; they raised up such a host of opposition
by the Conservancy of bill of 1836, that Liverpool could not
get back its proper influence in parliament, and he, (Mr.
Birkett) therefore, quite agreed that the time had arrived when
they must stand still. They must not go to parliament for
seven years. He would take that opportunity of publicly
returning his thanks to the Town-Clerk, for the great zeal,
ability, and time, which he had bestowed on this bill. With
the exception of the chairman, he had had to fight against
every member of the Finance Committee, and the event had
proved that;he was right, and they were wrong.
Mr. BouroN was always sorry to differ in opinion from
his friend Mr; Aikin, but on this occasion he certainly could
not agree with the Sentiments he had expressed. For the
last seven years the council had been endeavouring to pro-
mote a bill for the conservancy of the river, and he believed
the late corporation had been engaged in the same under-
taking for 20 or 30 years before. In all the bills which had
preceded the late application, the corporation always sought
to have a majority of the conservators. Now, from an in-
terview which took place with the Chancellor of the Duchy,
it was obvious that a bill founded upon that principle it was
utterly impossible to obtain; and, however gratifying it might
have been to their vanity or their interests, yet when it was
established that it was impossible to obtain that power, the
next and only course was to obtain such a bill as would have
the effect of preventing encroachments andi obstructions
which might be injurious- to the port. It must further be
remarked, that no power which now existed in the Dock
Committee for cleansing, improving, and scowering the en-
trance of the river was taken away. For the last seven
years this corporation had been continually met by a set of
very jealous opponents in the Cheshire and Lancashire mem-
bers, who, though their property on either side had more
than doubled in value by the erection of the docks of Liver-
pool, were treating those docks like a stepmother. The
conservancy of the river, however, was now:in high hands,
and unlikely to be affected by merely local interests,
and the landowners and others would be now re-
strained from encroachments without the sanction of those
conservators. Although the prevention of these encroach-
ments might seem of very little importance to the scouring
of the river, it was a well-known fact that one gentleman on
the Cheshire side had thereby increased his property to the
extent of 300 or 400 acres. It had been mentioned that go-
vernment would have brought in a bill themselves for the
improvement of the river. If that were so, and government
were to lay a tax upon shipping for the improvement of the
river, would Mr. Aikin and the shipowners like to contribute
to that which could be of no possible benefit to them ? They
would willingly pay for accommodation at Liverpool, but
they would be very unwilling to pay for improvements at
Runcorn and Frodsharn. Whenever a tax for that purpose
should be proposed, he (Mr. Bolton) hoped the town coun-
cil would unite with the shipowners in opposition to it. It
would be equal in injustice to that which the trustees of the
Weaver imposed upon the trade of Liverpool in order to
erect gaols ; and latterly they had even erected churches at
the expense of the trade of this town. (Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE replied. Mr. Aikin had said that
he (Mr. L.) and Mr. Sands went up td London with the
express understanding that they were to consent to no other
bill than that approved by the Council. His (Mr. L.'s)
impression did not go so far as that : his opinion was, that
they were not to accept Lord Lincoln's clauses, and if the
government insisted on carrying them, they were to with-
draw the bill, but he did not understand they were to go up
with their hands so completely tied as to make no'alteration.
No gentleman would go up to London on such terms. Some
discretion must be left with the representatives of the Coun-
cil, in London, in a case like this. £6OO a year was the full
extent of the expences of the bill. It had been said they
would increase to £6,000, but the bill was as clear as possible
on that point. Mr. Horsfall's name had been mentioned.
That gentleman had distinctly said, that if they could get
such useful officers at an expense to the Council and the
docks of only £6OO a year, it would be a very useful bill.
That was Mr. Horsfall's own expression, and he would not
now retract it

Mr. SANDS confirmed Mr. Lawrence's statement of Mr.
Horsfall's opinion of the bill.
Mr. BRAMLEY.MOORE said, this was discussing the mea-
sure both before and after it had passed ; and he thought
they had better proceed to business.
The proceedings were then confirmed.

COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS

The proceedings of the Improvement Committee, the
Watch Committee, and the Markets' Committee were seve-
rally read and confirmed.
THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE.-MR. EARLE'S GLOBES AND