The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-10-31 00:00:00

T►W SI ATF.SMAN.

One circunistanee respelling Waste:Ws absence, hail I
been commented upon very considerably by his
Learned Friends. It appeared that one induce-
went for sending him away VIVI the desire that
hr should get certain documents legalized. Ilia
Learned Friends had asked what use could Ens-'
sibly be made of these doe •nts in this cause ? Ile ,
would tell them. These documents referred to Iles-
eami, while he was confined in prisms ut !Ai. They
referred to his conduct there ; and it was highly pro-
bable that these documents might lie made Alailaille
is evidence. A.ttacks had also been made upon a very
respectable officer. Col. Browne. After paying a
Wlllllll compliment to the Colonel, the Learned So-
licitor proceeded to a coosidera.ion of the evidence
of Poiliarti, who had been produced for the purpose of
fixing an imputation On Col. Itrowoe. Pumarti,
south, was a youth of 2:?, seduced by ;11 acarti. (1 he
Learned Solicitor velem:4 to l'omarti's evidence.) It
seemed he was easily seduced, to betray his master's
confidence, for he was, lie said, a coofiAcntial clerk.
lie said, he afterwards repented ; but it came out,
that after his repentaiare, he had several times
gone to tile seen- wicked Vilittaearti for his hire; and
hail given wore papers to him. It wassail, that Colonel
Browne ought to have been brought forward in time,
and that he, (the Learned Solicitor) and his Friends
must hare known it was necessary, or they would not
have been able to cross-examine Pomarti altls sorb
effect. lie would tell his Learned Friends the
means of that effective cross-rtainimition. Whets
Poutarti appeared so anxious to betray his mas-
ter, Colonel Browne suspected that the clerk was
in concert with the master, to deceive h;tii, (the
Colonel); and he therefore wrote over a full account
of the circumstance, and trot.' that account the materials
for the cross-examination Lad been collected. It tt as
upon the testimony then, ut such a person An l'uniarti,
that his !warned Friends attempted to impeach the
character of a respectable and gallant officer; itsid alien-
ever it nits attempted to defend ;dm or any one else
connected oil!' the Milan t oimuission, they were told
it was nonsense to say a ts twit in defence of the Milan
t 'onouission. lint day after slay they were assailed by
I abuse, although not a !•114410W of evidence had been
offered to alfect their integrity, the purity, or the pro-
priety of their conduct. Ile did not mean to say that
all the subordinate ageeta of the 'onituission had acted
with propriety, but he cuniidently affirmed there was
not the least room fur attaching odium !sr them person-
ally. Mush had been said by his Learned Friends of
the difficulties under which they made toe detente, anti
the old topic was resorted to of the want of a list of the
witnesses. It was known that such a list was only given
in cases of High Treason. In these cases the witness
bad suds a list a few slays before the trial ; but in the
present case the accused land not only a list of the it it-
nesses, but she had the whole ut the evidence, and was
allowed the full time asked by the Advocates
for her to prepare her defence. The objection
that they had no snifieient opportunity to cross-ex-
amine could not b.• supported, for their Lordships had
afforded the Queen's Counsel every facility to elicit
the truth, by calling bark some of the witnesses, and
in two instances this tins t ersititted, although
Mr. Brougham bad declared that he should nut
desire to call that witness back. lie would
therefore contend, that so far from her Majesty
labouring under any eifficnlty, there never was
an accused in Court, who possessed so many
advantages. " But," said the Learned Counsel, " I re-
joice at it. I am glad that • • facility has been af-
forded to her ;Majesty, for this is a ease in which your
Lordships ought not to proceed upon conjecture or loose
suspicion ; but ni -vidence which must establish the
charge beyond the possibility of douht. It is for you to
consider the mass of evidence is Lich has been laid before
you, and to say whether toes: charges have been sitb.
conflated. My Lords, I now take soy leave of this long,
teal:taus and laborious offire which has peen cast
upon me by your Lordship' order. I cannot, however,
take that leave without thanking your Lordships for :he
courtesy and kindness you have shewn use oust she
Learned Friends, and whirls has ronsitlerab!y assuages!
the pain °four lalionrs. In retiring from your Lail-
ships Bar, we should he guilty of great ingratitude if or
slid acknowledge that kindness. Never did a cue come
before your Lordships of suds moment which was fol-
lowed in his progress by such universal attention. I hi
the part of the defence, every passion has beets apealed
to; hut of that I du not complain. Her Majesty's
Counsel have most ably discharged their duty.
I rejoice, that the Queen 01 England, bus on this trial
been defended by such a powerful array of talent. that
on the part of the defence, even the basest of passions
Isis been restarted to—the passion of fear. You have
bee?) told, that if you pass this Bill, you will cot aaaaa it an
act of suicide upon yourselves. Another of my Learned
Friends told you, that if you passed this Bill,
yon would do it at your peril. His words hung
long enough neon his lips, to warrant this con-
struction of hi: meaning. I am astonished that any
Learned Friends should have resorted to suck
topics, whirls cannot hunt injore her Majesty's rause. I
know well, my Lords, that there is one thstig yon will
nut dare to do. lots will ma dare to commit au act of
injustice. lint do justice I ass Bllll* you will, regardless
as to the consespeures, whether threatened or probable.
Not in this place only, but out of doors, lass every at-
tempt been made to intimidate you. The name of her
Majesty has been used for this purpose, but I la see no
doubt it has been without her concurrence. Every thing
dear to us have heels threatened with destruction. The
Constitution, the Sovereign and the 31onarchy have
been menace-I. I cannot suppose her Majesty's name to
these acts has ht ea used with her approbation, for if I
slid, I must suppose she aimed at the Constitution. I ,
fully acquit her of any such intention ; and I sincerely
say, that if in looking at the evidence in this case, and
giving it your most serious consideration in your winds
of hrr Majesty's guilt, and yet believe that that guilt has
not hero proved by the strict Mules of Law, Moen
I will join my Learned Friend, Mr. DENMAN, in beg-
ging :hat , ou will say to her Majesty. in the language
ufScripture, "Go, and sin no snore.- lint it on the
other hand yon sl Id feel satisfied upon a rains and
dispassionate review of the whole case, that that guilt i
has been legally established, then knowing what I do
of the temper and firmness of this tribunal, I ant sure
your Lordship will pronounce your decision in a
manner becoming pone exalted station.
After a short poste Mr. Mot:Guam rose and said,
that he should not discharge his duty to his client if lie
did not offer for their Lordships consideration the letters
he had spoken of on a former day respecting the conduct '
of Baron Ihupteds, and he conceived that by analogy
to the rules of other courts, all evidence for the
accused was admissible before final judgment.
A police agent of the government of Rome, had been
endeavouring to seduce the servants, by the name of
Otnpteda. Ile it was who carried on a communication
between Demon,. and her sister Mariette Brunette.
Whilst Desnont WWI in the hands and the toile of the
Milanese Commissioners, a curreepondenee with her
sister upon that subject, had been conducted by wins
of Baron Ottipteds, Minister of Believer, sad agent of

Count llnnster. Among the names mentioned in these
letters, not only Mariette Brunette's appeared, bet
ilieronymous was one of whom they had some hopes.
Others were mentioned, and Colonel Olieieri amongst
the rest. Particularly at a time when he was expected
to leave the sery ire of her Royal Ilighness. Ilntptrda had
also teanti that some Homan servants bad been Itireil,end they
are immediately the objects of his attention. •• I should be
curious to know the names of these Roman servants," says
the Worthy Baron, and. continued the Learner' Counsel ;
donhtless. if he attained that knowledge, they would have
partook the benefit of the thousand louts d'ors with which
they had been furnished, who carried on the Odle of sedu-
cing the servants. After this, be trusted it would not he
said, that the Baron Ompteda was a person against whom
touch had been said and nothing proved.
The .le-roaxer-(l ex declared this to he • repe-
tition of one of the most extraordinary applications.
that ever was made in a Court of Justice. If be
(the Attorney-II 'nerd) had made such an application,
their Lordship, would have found Mr. Brougham again
bnrsting out with his exclamation—" Now, my Lords, I
ash, is this a Court of Justice." Ile believed one main
object of his Learned Friend irorared to him to be, an
opportunity of making another speech at their Lord-
ships liar; otherwise he would not have entered into
1 comments upon what had been said in reply. What was
the nature of the evidence now offered? The letters were
to be produced, as he understood, to prove a connexion
with the Aldan Co iiiiii ission. If not, he could not see
that there was a shadow of pretence fi•, offering them.
Bat heappreheniled, that on no pretence whatever, could
it be said, that the letters ought to he received. Could the
Conver •ations and declarations of such parties be received
as evidence? If not. he contended that letters being no-
thing wore than written conversation, neither could
they he received. If his Learned Friends had not pos-
sersed evidence to support the allegations which they
haul previously made at .bat bar, respecting the Baron
Ompteda, their conduct h. d been most nolvecolving,
and now it had conic out that they actually had no
%nth evidence. In no stage of the proceedings could
they have produced these letters. because there was no
evidence of agenry-. They had all along heard of the
contents of letters, without their being produced, in-
tended to influence their Lordships decision, and to serve
other purposes nut of that House. Pet hips his Learned
Friend would have no objection to read the dates and
addresses of the letters.

li,4ouGuasu.—l have not the least objection to
read yon the whole of the contents.—(A laugh.)
The Arlon N Es-tiEsenat gave his Learned Friend
credit for his adroitness, and doubted not but he had
all along rendered it of considerable advantage to his
client. lie was confident that the present topic was
only introduced for the purpose of creating another
diversion from tie real state of the case.

Mr. Ilitot-cu eat read the dates of the letters, and
said, that with respect to the pers in to Whom they
were addressed, if he were not allowed to prodm•e
I the leiti•rs, he did not know that lie on.rsht to mention
his name. beeilltSt• he was a person bolding a public sta-
r t.on---he is a director of the polic- at Pesaro. What we
should rill here in the Home Department—(a laugh)—au
agent of Isis Holiness the Pope. In the attack which his
[retuned Friend had made upon him, lie had begun with
attacking him for having kept the letters for the pur-
pose of producing them at a particular time. This was
abundoutal, and t hill he was attacked for not having pro-
(laced them earlier, and in the nest place fur having pro-
duced them too early. If lie hail delayed bringing them
longer, he should have laid himself open to the first at-
tack. He hail been triumphantly asked why he did not
produce oiariette and Ilieronyinous. lie wasafraid that
1
they might have been in the trammels of Ompteda, and
now he found that lie had been right. If in an iiii!neky
hour he haul put them to the bar, lie might hare found
them turn round, and prove to he his Learned Friend's
.(the Attorney-tienerars) with , instead of his own.
3lajorchi ha'd represented that there was one Maurice
Credi had beets employed as an agent.
AvrtiIiNLY•UESEIIAL.-1111 what page of evidence
did that appear ?
lor. Banes:it tNI.—Oh, I know very well it is in the
evideace. Ile then read part of the evidence that re-
ferred to Mr. Cooke, who went to Frankfort for the
purpose of examining Credi.
Art oestxv-tireresat..—Mr. Brongharn, I wish to
know in what page of the evidence that al peered?
Mr. Bitortinom --My Lords, i have no objec-
tion to quote the page. But I am sure if I
had correrted my Learned Friends every unit. that
they mistated the evidence, I should he kept eniployed
pretty busily. And really, in the present instance, I
feel obliged to toy friends, for directing me to the evi-
deuce, fur on inspecting it, I find it is much stronger
than I exported.—(A langh.)—lie then referred them to
the page of evidence 47. fie complained of their not
producing that same Maurice Credi. If he could have
got him, lie would have produced him, and examined
him. It was immaterial to him where this man, whether
in the custody of the Milan Commission, or in a natio-
verian fortress, or whether in that confortable garden, as
well fortified, as either the Hatch or Milanese fortresses,
that fortress in the immediate vicinity of that House,
if he could get at him by any civil process, lie
would have brought him to the der and examined him.
He therefore called on their Lordships to receive that
evidence, as necessary to the administration of justice.
Tit-ir Lordships were sitting there as a legislative body,
deliberating whether they elionlll pass a Bill of Pains
and Penalties, and as the only question to which lie
etiiiiil speak, was whether that Bill should he read a
second time, he entreated their Lordships to receive
it as rvideuce. Their Lordships were not to pro-
ceed in this instance as in the Courts below. '1 hey
were mot sitting there to try an issue. He wish-
ed to 11041 they were. But they were sitting
to decide, whether a Bill should be passed, to ruin
eternally the Queen of England, under the semblance of
slate necessity,. without a shadow of proof, without any
such necessity existed, but which was urged by an interest-
ed party.
The Arroextv.o6,ll.ll4l. complained of the course that
had been pursued by his Learned Friend, who had availed
himself of that opportunity of affecting their Lordships
minds, under the pretence of speaking to the subject
before theta. tie was again recurring to his old
custom of endeavouring to persuade the House to re-
ceive these letters as evidence, because, indeed, he said,
it was essential to the interests of the Queen.
I
With respect to tit • evidence, as if it should be received,
he had no fears. But lie could not avoid expressing it
as his opinion, that their Lordships should regulate
themselves by the riles which they had observed all
through this proceeding. He thought that the bold as-
sertions of Mr. Broughafti were not borne ont by the evi-
-1 deuce of Lierreaoar lluteaa,a, namely, that Maurice
Credi had sworn that the Baron Ompteda was cow-
-1 cerned in these pro eedings. lie arun repeated he
had no (cars as to the ultimate result, even if
the evidence should be received. Bet be said,
that these ',pork which Mr. Brouham then offered,
had no bearing on the case now before their Lordshil a.
lie protested both against the period, and the manner in
which these papers had been °trend. But it was quite
of a piece with all the conduct observed by his Learned
Newts in the course Of three practadiaga. in his last
address, hi aseittlaaedaht same/ a rhea be had not
before istrodwod.

_
The Crtsqceu.on cone, fur the purpose of explaining ti
practice of the court; ho-low in dome pointh. Ile frAte
it es his opinion, subjelPt to the correction of the How,
that it was not evidence.

LTA r 111 NA lIVON II a 4 of opinion that these
panrrs .h.oght hr
Lord lavcaroot. loosed that the !twist arlisura Imp
Thoriol-ty.

_ ....._.
The hake of IhMtvrov regretted that hi. Friett.i
had sat down ultimo 111410111; a 1114)!ilii 0.1
this subject. lie could tint leave the Home, Witham
taking their Lordships' opinion on it. He said. fro
the elm trader from whir's thew papers proce:Ard, h.m
rottsidrrrd them of great insport.t.lep. it. in the tvt,
cour.e of the proceeding*, any thing had her mere seSo.
lon.ly avoided than anti' her, it wa. the ince.tigation of the
31ilan Commission.—(llear.) —He was happy to hart.
thi., opportunity of attain protesting against that Dille
Pains and Venable.. lie thought the object or M.
li
thenl4 n
ewasnt:dt so i•litPit to "titittl the whole truth, and in Join.
this e thetnielves down le: ail tr.':
the teclenieslties of the other courts. He should th.'re.
fore ronclude by moving " that these papers be r,
eeived."

Earl OM' observed, that at the commeneemoo
d
of this investigation, lie had stated his objection 10
Bill of Pains and Penalties, which he consier- l coed
never be justified except lay %lime strong anal preasisr
state necessity, which viola{ he assisted by no other
Ir. Such state necessity lie dial not think am ri_
fisted, and he had recorded 11:s opinion to tliategoo hr
entering his protest aoainst the Bill. Bn on.ir
Lordships having entertanied the nseasnre,
occupied for 40 or 30 il_tys in hearing evidence furs*
against this Bill. At the commencement of the pm.
melting, their Lordships hod, without aliando:ing
their right not to be fettered in their iniotirie.: by Ilea
practice of the Courts below, ronsented to have their
proceedings regulated by the rules which were oh.
served in those Courts. The question now was, who
they in the last stage of th.• business they would de-
p irt from the rules they ?owl hitherto ()harry al Tee
Learned Lord on Ole Woolsock had state,l, and he
(Earl Grey) agreed with him, that the prtiors offered
would not be evidence in the Courts of I. iw. la that
case the question was how for they were .ra material
as to render a deviation from their ustt.l vractice e .-
pedient ? His Noble Friel' I (the Duke of itanoloo
had said that th se papers iiii4ht be neces.ary in order
to go into as inquiry on the subject of the Milan
Commission. He agreed with him, that th o ought
to be spade the subject of inquiry, and Le sopposed
such inquiry would be lung and tedious, but was alts
the proper time or place for it ? Ile did not think so,
and therefore, bow, ver reluctantly, he uotthl vote
agrost the motion.
The Earl of CARNARVON rose to support the wi-
thin. Ile was carry to differ from his Noble Friett•l
(Earl Grey) on this or any point, but in every clew
which he took of this motion he thought it ought to
he complied with. Their Lordships were not then
sitting merely as a Court of Justice. Their present
occupation was of a mixed character. '.'hey were
acting at once as Judges and Legislators. lie would
admit with his Noble Friend, that as Judges they
might be confined to the ordinary rules a ; but
could they as Leoislators consider themselves honed
by those rules ? They were now called upon to decide
upon this most important measure, and bow Is • asked,
could they come to a fair and inrartill decision
without inquiring into the whole eltara:ocr of the pro.
ceetlings, without knowing this was an honest English
Bill, or a German conspiracy ? If they sought In- infer-
motion on this important point, (anal he maintained that
they were bound to seek it,) their inquiry ought to he
full and complete; but how could it he either. if they
rejected the evidence now proposed to them ? Would
they as a jury pronounce a verdict, where they knew
that evidence was at hand which would 'nor: fully ex•
plain the nature of the case before them ;—would they,
he asked, conic to a dec'sion without going into such
evidence? As judges, he had said, they inioht per-
haps be bound by rules which would exclude such evi•
dance, but this did not apply to them is their character
of legislators. Could their Lordships think of coming
to the horrible vote without hearing what was offered
on this most important sufijoo connected with the ease
—rould they aid the band of power extended to ernsh
an individual, and then shelter themselves under their
mixed characters as judges and legislators? He hoped
for the sake of honour—.,l justice, they would not.
Let them recollect that the eyes of their country, dial
the eyes of the whole world, were at this moment filed
upon them; anal without shrinking from the perform.
sore of their duty, let them take cart' that justice was
done to the people of England--that justice was
done to the Illustrious accused which it was their duty
to do, and which their country expected from them.
He concluded by declaring his full concurrence in the
motion of Isis Noble Friend. _ _

Earl fidosreivott felt regret at bring obliged to dif-
fer from his Noble Friend who made this motion. At
first he was induced to give it his support, but when
he recollected that the general prinCiple neon whirls
it went was already derided, he thought it beset lilt
it should not be urged in this stage. He wa!ef 10*
idols that their Lordships, if they went into the itspitt?
respecting a conspiracy in this ease, tbey ought se
to go into it partially, hat he thought that suet as
inquiry as the motion poi's:A mu%t be partial and is-
effectual. It was therefore better not to ge into it at
all at present. At another time it would be the enlr
jest of investiwation, and then he slmuld have no ub
jeetion to enter into it fe;'y.
Lord llos.t..txo surge.ted, that if this evidence was
to be received, it would then be incumbent on them te
go (nether into the inquiry which would by that meals
be opened. For his own part, he felt himself quite
exhausted by the length to tibias the main investie
lion hail already extended. Illis reason, however, Gt
the vote that he should giro on this question, ass—
and it would afford hint great satisfa..tion to find thsi
other. were equally influenced by the
.same reasons--
that be to a determined to vote against tite bill itself.
on principles which had often been maintained in tbst
house on former occasions.—{Her.-.)—fle did tbisk
also, that no man could give au honest vote the**,
way, without first sifting and eta:Hitting every putt
of toe subject, and acquainting himself with the yell
means by which this pross•cur.un bad been set on tort.
Hr himself, indeed, felt no desire for such tin Wren.
gation ; he. wanted no:, after so long en inquiry is*
the conduct of the Queen, to be led into as *VIr
to the proceedin;s of Hanoverian Ministers. Thom
however, who proposed to say Content to the wend

fla
e
oat, • f a Dill like this, were bound to assure them- I
Awoke it had been brought for ward by just, legi-
Tot. sad constitutional means.
The marquis of LINSPOWN agreed that the evidence
was not admissible, in consequence of the
..j orhiA they had themselves preciously laid down.
wa. nee thing to say that the evidence in Ties-
., wol ao material part of the inquiry, and ano-
tint sav that, in accordance with this rule, they
lee preoentert from receiving it. Their Lordships
ko, Oriole the course of these proceedings, rejected
riimre tendered in support of a charge of conspiracy
sok „tt,• aide, and were bound, therefore, to exclude
oario r side. It could not be becoming to receive it
ethis r.es tug part of the general inquiry. Ludoubt-
eitoame amongst them had a deep interest in the
o. this evidence, and more especially the
R,„.lt,:posite (Liverpool), who had said, that
wriin minister whatever had been authorised
wort' in this business, and that the whole had
boa I. ft to the conduct of the Milan Commission.
jet k was not on that account, or for the gratifications
dot so 'de Lord, that the House ought to b. in-
boa t,, depart from the rules which it had laid down.
istalaso cote might, no donht, be experienced, but it
wes esiT a part of that gene-al inconvenience which
o,lutrudr., the whole et this proceeding, and he
fowl mould continue to attend it till its close. It was
gridost that this circumstance would entitle the
illus-
trisM'etxse accused to a favourable consideration
ee di, woad reading of the bill, but be felt him-
saitaaapelltai to negative the present motion.
?he Wan CotaNriLioa put the question whether
theerkleareihould be received ; and Lis Lordship de-
clared the nen-contents haul it. A division however
was railed fur, and strangers were ordered to with-
&kW.
lla *e Division there appeared.
Noel oistents
Contests
16
Ma' nity against receiving the Evidence, 127
The Douse then adjonrued until Thursday at ten
o'clock.