The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-11-01 00:00:00

BOROUGH COURTS COMMITTEE.

Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE said, before the proceedings com-
menced, he wished to call attention to a paragraph which had
appeared in the Mercury, which was quite a misrepresenta-
tion of the proceedings of the council. It was with regard
to the book of the Borough Court and Court of Requests
Committee, and it stated that, in discussion on that subject,
he had been personally appealed to for an explanation, as he was
a member of the committee at the time when the leaves were
left blank. He appealed to the Mayor whether, on that
occasion, he was ever asked a question on the subject ; indeed
if he had been, he must have said that he knew nothing of
the matter; but the fact was, he was not appealed to in any
shape or way. He could not help expressing his very great
surprise that any person should have lent himself to such a
misrepresentation as this. Those who were present cer-
tainly ought to know what passed ; and one of the editors of
the paper in question was present at the time, acting as a
reporter, and it was not becoming in him to make such a
statement.

Mr. BRIGHT said the statement relative to the blank leaves
was one which bore hard upon the conduct and character of
the Court of Requests' Committee, of which he was a mem-
ber. In the defence which he attempted to make iu behalf
of the committee, he certainly did call upon Mr. Lawrence
by name, without any comment upon or suggestion of what he
wished. Mr. Lawrence knew he was a member of the com-
mittee, and on his (Mr. Bright's) calling upon him he natu-
rally naturally expected Mr. Lawrence would have got up
and vindicated the• committee. [Mr. LAWRENCE—I did
not hear it.l Whilst he (Mr. Bright) was upon his legs, he
wished to correct a statement which he made at the last
meeting.

The MAY or. thought Mr. Bright could hardly be permitted
to make explanations now.

Mr. Bnioirr hoped the Mayor would allow him to pro-
ceed, as Mr. Lawrence had been permitted to explain, and
the present was his (Mr. Bright's) last day in the council.
The MAYOR said Mr. Lawrence had risen merely to cor-
rect an error, not to make an explanation.
Mr. LAWRENCE said he merely wished to do away with
the impression that he was called upon to give an explanation
and refused, because he held that it was not becoming in any
member of the council to refuse to give any explanation when
called upon.

The MAYOR intimated that Mr. Bright might proceed.
Mr. BRIGHT said that at the last meeting he had stated,
that nothing important occurred at the meetings of the corn..
mittee during the period alluded to, and he certainly said
more than he was justified in saying. He had made the state-
ment hastily. He thought, however, that the gentlemen who
determined upon making that charge against the committee
ought to have given notice of their intention. Some excuse
might be made for his error, if, after a lapse of seven years,
he did not, on the spur of the moment, remember accurately
what had taken place. All that the business of the commit-
tee required was done, and reports were made through the
Town-clerk in a regular manner. In the Council-book there
were full reports of all the proceedings, and this was cer-
tainly much more satisfactory than ;f the reports had appeared
in the committee-book, because all the proceedings were there
open to the burgesses, any of whom might refer to them on
payment of a small fee. As far as the public were concerned
the duties of the committee did not commence till the first of
September.
Mr. BIRKETT thought that Mr. Bright was mistaken in
another matter. The Council could not have gone for an
act of Parliament till twelve months after they came into
power.
The TOWN-CLERK explained that it was a bill which did
not require notice.
Mr. BIRKETT Did you obtain it the same year?
The TOWN-CLERK : Yes.

The TOWN-CLERK said that it might he proper for him to
be allowed to state briefly now what he knew about the blank
leaves; and when he came to make his report, upon the
report of the Paid Officers' Committee, he should beg per-
mission to make that statement which would put the subject
right, and make it satisfactory to the council. The fact was,
that the Borough Court and Court of Requests Committee
was a law committee. The whole proceedings of that com-
mittee during the first municipal year ended in reports; and
those reports were presented to the council, and copied into
the council book. Those reports contained the whole of the
proceedings of the committee during the period in question.
As stated by Mr. Bright, instead of concealment of the pro-
ceedings of that committee, this was the very way to make
them public, because the municipal act entitled every burgess,
upon the payment of a shilling, to have access to the whole
minutes of the council, but not to the minute book of any
committee, therefore there could have been no purpose un-
worthy of the members of that committee. With regard to
the blank leaves, he (the Town-clerk) was enabled, immedi-
ately after he left the counil at the end of the last meeting,
to have explained that. The fact was, upon re-commencing
the proceedings of that committee the second year, it was
observed by a member of the committee—by the then Chair-
man, Mr. now Sir Joshua Walmsley—that it was proper the
committee should have a minute book like other committees,
and the proceedings of the committee from their commence-
ment entered therein. The meaning of the blank leaves was
this. It appeared from the statement of a clerk to whom he
(the Town-clerk) immediately put the question, and which
brought it vividly to his recollection, that the blank leaves were
left under his own direction for the purpose of entering the
reports upon the minutes of the council, in order that the
committee book might contain the whole proceedings,
although there would thereby have been a double entry of the
reports in question. Now, with regard to the proceedings
of the committee during the period in question, they were
confined to the two bills. He had minutes of some meetings,
but they really contained nothing more than instructions
from the committee to the Town-clerk with regard to the
different proceedings as to those bills. He called them two
bills, because the act was twofold, relating to the Borough
Court and to the Court of Requests. This he should state
more at length, and refer to the different papers, in his report
to the Paid Officers' Committee.

Mr. BUSHELL thought too much importance had been
attached to the matter of the blank leaves. He was sorry
that the Chairman of the Paid Officers' Committee was not
now present. In his absence, however, he might ask the
Town-Clerk whether Mr. Lloyd had not said he had, as a
burgess, referred to the council book and found nothing
touching the proceedings of the committee, save that the
proceedings were read and confirmed.
The Toy/NT-CLERK said he could very readily give the in-
formation required. In the first place the application of
Mr. Lloyd was to see the minute book of the council, which
was all to which, by law, he was entitled. The observation
which Mr. Lloyd made was general. It was to see the
council proceedings, and all he found there was, that the
proceedings of such and such a committee had been read and
approved. What those proceedings were he could not learn
from the council book ; and when he applied to look at the
council book, he was told that by law he was not entitled
to it.
Mr. LLOYD: The committee-book.

The TOWN-CLERK : Yes, the committee-book. When
Mr. Lloyd applied to look at the committee-book he was an-
swered that by law be was not entitled. That certainly was
and is the law ; but during the period in question with regard
to the Borough Court and Court of Requests proceedings,
there was no entry at all in the Council-book of the proceed-
ings of that committee having been " read and approved" in
the way stated ; but, instead of entries of that kind there
were to be found the different reports of the committee. In
February, 1836, there was the appointment of the committee ;
on the 27th there was a report of the committee which stated
the condition of the Courts in question, and suggested an
application to Parliament, which, in the case of local bills at
that time, required no notice to be given—
Mr. BIRKETT inquired whether notice was required to be
given now ?
The TOWN-CLERK said his impression now was that notice
was required ; but they proceeded then without notice, and
without any suspension of the standing orders.
Mr. BIRKETT : It was a very great saving to the public.
Sir Thos. BRANCKER said, these explanations were irre-
gular, and were detaining the Council from the regular busi-
ness.

The TOWN-CLERK would just run rapidly over the re-
ports. In August there was a report of the application to
Parliament, stating the results to be obtained. Then came
reports as to the Sergeant-at-Mace of the Borough Court :
there were three reports made by the committee upon that
subject, about the latter end of the year, in August or Sep-
tember. But what he meant to state was, that all the pro-
ceedings of the committee ended in reports during the period
that they ought to have been entered upon the blank leaves,
and they were all at length in the Council-book.
Mr. AIKIN agreed with Mr. Bushell, that too much im-
portance was attached to the blank leaves being there ; but
he totally disagreed with him if he said too much importance
was attached to the explanations then being given. lie must
recall to recollection that the blank leaves had been shaken
in the face of his party as a triumphant proof that something
had been suppressed of which the chairman of the committee
said they ought to be ashamed, if they had any shame in
them.
Mr. LLOYD begged to say that the chairman of the com-
mittee had said no such thing.

Mr. AIKIN said the assertion was as he had stated, andon
hearing it he (Mr. Aikin) observed, that he had no doubt
confusio❑ would follow those who made the assertion when
the matter was fully explained. If Mr. Lloyd had been
candid enough to have applied to Mr. Lawrence, who was
on the committee, he would have found out why the blank
leaves were there. He was satisfied that the committee had
seized too greedily upon that which would have been a great
satisfaction to them.
Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE repeated that he could have given
no explanation whatever; for he positively knew nothing
about the matter.
Mr. LLOYD said, that after the observations of Mr. Aikin
he must be allowed to tresprss for a few moments upon the
attention of the council. He regretted that he was not pre-
sent at the commencement of the discussion; but without
referring to that, he would remind the council that the sub-
ject of the blank leaves was brought forward by Mr. Moore,
in the first instance. Mr. Bolton knew how they were
discovered. It was at the last meeting of the Paid Officers'
Committee that the book was produced, and it was produced
by Mr. Bolton himself calling for it. The committee were
then in discussion upon the appointment of the serjeant-at-
mace : he wished to see the proceedings in August and Sep-
tember, 1836, and it was then found that there were no
entries till the 17th of November! His (Mr. Lloyd's) re-
mark at the last council simply went to this—in 1836 had
occasion to call upon the town-clerk for the production of
the council book. It was not in relation to the Court of
Requests. He stated he was then professionally engaged for
the trustees on the clergy endowment question, and he cal-
led upon the town-clerk to look at the council book ; and he
there found it entered—the proceedings of such and such a
committee " read and confirmed." That was what lie had
observed upon. He asked the town-clerk whether Ile was
not entitled to see the proceedings of the committee, be-
lieving that if the council made them part of their proceed-
ings they should be recorded there, and he had a right to
look at them—for the muncipal act said that any burgess
might, upon paying a shilling, have them placed before him.
His observation was, that no burgess would think of paying
a shilling for the privilege of reading " proceedings read and
confirmed ;" and he concluded by saying that perhaps some
of the committees of those days might have been ashamed of
their proceedings, or why were they not recorded ? He had
a right to make that observation ; and Mr. Aikin had no
right to say that he (Mr. Lloyd) wanted shame, and that
confusion would follow. He (Mr. Lloyd) certainly might
retort upon Mr. Aikin by saying that confusion had followed
the party with which he acted.
Mr. gRAMLEY.MOORE said a few words in relation to the
blank leaves ; but on being informed that the matter had
been explained by the Town-Clerk, he resumed his seat, and
the subject dropped.