The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-02-13 00:00:00

Majesty's Ilkwernmeut were in possession of any De
elarstion on the part of the Allied Powers hostile '

Naples ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repli
(as we understood the Right Honourable Geutlernae),
that he was not aware of the receipt of any such do.
eameut, but that his Noble friend would be in the
-House to-morrow, and would give the Noble Lord a
more rip** insigr on the subject.
GRAMPOUND.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL in moving that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee on the Gram-
pound Disfranchisement Bill, observed, that it would
he quite superfluous for him to go over the grounds
on whirl, the bill had been introduced, fully discussed
as they bad been on so many former occasions. Ad.
vertiug to the propositions which had been made with
respect to the place to which the franchise should be
transferred, he said he should himself prefer trans-
feral% it to Leeds, because that place contained a
lar,re and respectable class of housekeepers, who at
present had no vote for the election of a Member of
Parliament, and because that would practically tend
to reduce the grievance that five of the largest towns
i ► Great Britain were destitute of a single Repre-
sentative. At the same time it was almost as great a
grievance that a county, so extensive and populous as
Yorkshire, should return but two Members to Paella-
meat. He was really very indifferent whether the
elective franchise taken from Orampooad, was con-
ferred on Leeds, or on the county of York generally.
He should net at present enter into the general goes-
. tion of Reform ; what be thought, if the Bill was
. not pas ,ed in one of those forms which he had men-
Coned, it would be to tell the people that they could
have no expectations from that House. The Noble
Lord concluded by moving the Order of the day for
the House to resolve it self into a Committee.
Mr. ORENFELL said, that as he had previously
resisted all motions for Reform a; visionary, it was
o'cessary for him to state his reasons for supporting
th Bill. He would oppose any great or general
e'teration of the Constitution, but he was willing to
adept a principle for the removal of corruption, and
t.,: applying a specilic remedy, as it was proposed to
il(o in the present instance, by transferring the right
obi r lectiou to the town of Leeds ; that he thought
otild be a practical remedy to an admitted evil, the
a. i,birtion of which could not but be attended with
salutary consequences.
Mr. R. MARTIN said,that lie rhould resist fire Bill
in every stage of it, both as to the principle and the
appliretiun of it. It sot out with stating an untruth
by declaring that the elections in Grampoutod were
notoriously corrupt. In refuting that be referred to
the elections which had taken place since the Bill bad
been pending. In this particular instance they should
by the efficacy of the existing law before they ven-
tured on a new plan—they should try the efficacy of
the bribery oath, as tendered at all elections ; if that
sere done he had no doubt but that mach of the evils
co.eplained of would be avoided. He should as soon
thio.k of taking away the Charter from the Bank of
England, as the Franchise from the Borough of Gram-
art d.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW contended, that the improve-
ment in the purity of election, as evinced in the two
la e elections for Urampound, was to be attributed to
tie fact of this Bill having been hanging over the
. heads of the electors. The bribery of Orampound
seas so notorious, that he would, without hesitation,
onsent to the disfranchisement of that Borough. He
approved of transferring the right of voting to the
Town of Leeds in preference to the adjoining Hun-
died; of Pyder and Powder, which were already fully
represented.
Mr. WILSON approved of the Bill because it went
to remedy • practical evil. As to the comparison
which had been made between Urampound and the
Batik of England, he contended, that if a blot appeared
on the Charier of the Bank, it should not be held
sacred, after the powers entrusted to it had been
abused. He thought the only way in which Parlia-
mentary Reform could safely take place was, that
lo rever an evil was proved to exist, a suitable re-
medy should he applied.
Mr. LOCKHART contended, that it had been
proved that the King's writ for the return of Mem-
bers for the Borough of Urampound had been reeu-
larly construed into a writ of vendirioxi calmness.
Ile did not object to the disfranchisement of that
Boroogh, but he did not wish that the principle of
feuding the electile franchise to the payers of scot
and lot should he mixed up with the present Bill.
Ile believed the representation to hr on too narrow a
basis either to shield the people, or to support the
dignity of the Crown. He should, therefore, give
his support to any regulation which would admit
property to a greatershare in the representation. He
did not approve, however, of the transfer of the elec-
. tive franchise to the payers of scot and lot, as it would
bear too intensely on a salted Monarchy. To the
. disfranch'.sement of Urampound, as an act of pull-
tical justice, he had not the least objection.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that the Hon. Member
(Mr. Lockhart) expressed himself fully setisfied as
to the principle of disfranchising lirampound, he only
differed upon a comparitively immaterial point, namely,
as to what place the franchise should be transferred.
The far greater difficulty was as to recognising the
principle of disfranchising the Borough ; a principle
•rendered quite necessary, in consequence of the shame-
ful system of bribery awl corruption which had been
so lung practised by the Elt:tors of G•ampound. With
respect to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for
tialway (Mr. Martin), undoubtedly, if that Hon. Gent
thou rht that there was no necessity for Reform of any
kind—if be th.eglot that gross bribery ought rot to be
noticer!, there could not, in his opinion, be any use for
the House going Into a Committee, or doing any thing
• else to put an end to bribery and corruption. But that
Hon. Gentleman had stated his conviction that many
of the Electors were bribed, and bow did he propose to
•protect the public from that evil ? By adding perjury
• to bribery—(hear)--for if the oaths of persons guilty
of bribery and corruption were to be taken,wbat would
it lead to?—manifestly to nothing but perjury. He
(Sir John Newport) could not help thinking that the
plan suggested by the Hon. Member would rather con-
firm the evil than promote any saldtary Reform, it
would be more injurious to the character of the people
than any other usemnare.
Mr. MARTIN explained. •
A Manama, whose name we could not learn, said
that theses be had hitherto voted against the

Reform in Parliament 'mold remove the I.
*nee., he was cenvineltd that the public .
echoed more frequently within the wells of that .
than it was the fashion to ack►owledge.
Mr. DAVIES GILBERT rose to move instructions
to the Committee. He said, that on the main question
of Reform, he perfectly agreed to evety sentiment con-
tained in a late speech pronounced by the Right lion.
Member for Liverpool, before his Conatitt►ents. The
Hon. Gentleman then stated, at some length, but in a
very inaudible manner, his opinions on the question
before the House. He stated that he was willing to
support the principle of the Bill fir disfranchising
Grampound, but lie thought that no Freeholder, who
had not been convicted of bribery, should be deprived
of his right of voting, hut that he should re-
tain that right, and that the right of voting
generally should be transferred to the neighbouring
llondreds. The lionnurabk Gentleman concluded by
moving " That instructions, should be given to the
Committee to make a provision to extend the right of
voting of the Borough of Orampeund to the Freehold-
ers of the adjacent Hundreds.
Mr. PHILLIPS, of Manchester, said the lion. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Gilbert) seemed afraid that the country
should have 4 more free and perfect system of re'
sentation ; now he (Mr. Phillips) differed so much
with the Hou. Gentleman, that he felt and lamented
that the people of England did not enjoy a fair system
of representation—that the feelings of the country
were not fairly represented in that House—(that in
the language of Mr. Burke) it did not possess the spi-
rit or essence of a British House Commons. The
Hun. Member (►lr. Gilbert) had acknowledged the
gross r orruption of Grampound, and admitted that the
franchise should be taken from Own. But to whom
did he propose it should be given—to another part of
the country which was uncorrupted by the example of
Grampound ? No! hut to the very hundreds in which
that scene of iniquity had been acted. A Right Hou:
Gent. (Mr. Canning) who had been referred to, and
whose sentiments tie lion. Member (Mr. Gilbert)

iev-

adopted as his own, had stated, that it was with him
no argument for admission to the exercise of the elective
franchise, that a district had increased in wealth, com-
merce, and population. Now wealth, commerce, and po-
pulation were generally indicative of the intelligence of
a district. He could not conceive, if wealth, coca-

merce and population were to be no rules fur giving
the elective franchise, on what principle a national re-
presentation could be constructed. The want of Re-
presentatives at this time for the manufacturing dis-
tricts was a great practical evil. Every one must
have witnessed the increase, especially in the manu-
facturing districts, of intelligence and activity of mind
within the last twenty years; that activity and that
intelligence, if not admitted to its participatiuu in the
Constitution, became hostile to it. The Hon. Member
(Mr. (filbert) had told them of the population of Corn-
wall, and of the two hundreds, especially of Pyder and
Powder, but be should have told them also of the po-
pulation of other districts. Cornwall sent 41 member,/
to Parliament, or an 11th part of all the representation
of the kingdom ; the population of Cornwall was only
1.50 th of England. The population of Lancashire,
which was about 1-11th of the population of England,
had only a 35th share io the representation ; and
Yorkshire, which had 1-10th of the population of the
kingdom, had ouly!ahout 1-17th of the representation.,
Cornwall, it would Ite- seen, had one member for about
every 5000 inhabitants; Lancashire only one for
60,000. There was no reason for this undue prefer-
ence. In 1815, according to the property Tax re-
turns, the real property of Cornwall amounted only to
1-54th part of the kingdom the real property of Lan-
cashire 1-16th ; and that of Yorkshire to 1-10th or
1-11th. If the lion. Member approvtd of the present
plan of representation, he must not only wish that the
Elective franchise should be given, not in proportion
to wealth, commerce, and population, but in an inverse
ratio to them.--(Hear.)--The manufacturing districts
certainly felt the want of Representatives more than
any other, and there were obvious reasons why those
districts should have special representatives to refer to.
Much of the discontent which existed in those districts
would cease, if the inhabitants had regular means of
stating their complaints. Elections in those districts
would be conductors for carrying off disaffection,
which, if not removed, would burst out intosome vio-
lent change.
Mr. H. GLYRNEY said, the Honorable Member for
Bodmin (Mr. D. Gilbert), who had so well pleaded
the cause of his Cornish neighbours, when he pro-
posed that the elecorial franchise should be given to
the Hundreds of Pyder and Powder, had omitted to
state what they had done to deserve this mark of fa-
vour.—(Hear.)--He (Mr. Gurney) contended, that
there was no greater tendency to democracy in the
Members for populous places, than in the Members
for Counties or Boroughs. The principle of trans-
fer, from one town to another, had been acted
upon in numerous instances, from the reign of Edward
the First, to the reign of Charles the Second, a space
of 400 years. Within that time 140 places bad been
added and ;0 taken away from the representation ;
but as to the principle of transferring the right of re-
presentation from a Borough ,to Freeholders, where
was there a precedent for that?—(Hear.)—Such a
transfer was contrary to all the analogies of the Con-
stitution. '1 he Freeholders had been went to return
Knights of the Shires,c and the Borongh Burgesses :
but the extension of right of voting to the Freeholders
of an adjoining HundreJ, gave a double character to
the Freeholders. There was no instance before that
of SLoteman, a measnre extorted from the weakness of
Lord North's Administration, and passed by stn .:11
majorities in smelt Houses. Neither was there, by
such a change, any improvement in the theory •f the
Constitution. Into a Borough, Gentlemen, of the
Law, and others of classes which were not directly re-
presented, might find their way, and thus indirectly
improve the representation. But when the right was
transferred to freeholders, an extention of represents-
fftre power was given to a class which had not the least
'lbalm to it.--(Hear.)--The next instance to that of
Shoreman, was that of Aylesbury. The men of
Aylesbury had rebelled against the power of the Mar-
quess of Buckingham, and bad began to trade for
themselves. For this they were struck off the list of
boroughs, and the right of voting win thus given to
the Modred, by which the power of returning was

and
Tiered the

n ii.
via-

'aliorded et aseartainia;
cause a •Ilispointion

At to the particular case
-oey hod at first six :boroughs,
a number not very disproportioned to its population,
but that number was increased from tinge to time, be-
cause this county was particularly under the influence
of the Crown. In the reign of Edward VI. when the
Cornmeal' refused tit pass -the attainder 9f Somerset,
the Duke of Northumberland caused writs to be issued
to six Raw Cornish boroughs, which writs be accom-
panied with his fatuous letters, in which he told them,
in many instances, whom they should return, and in
others, ordered them to advise with a Member of his
Privy Council. If it was nntorious that a great number
of the Cornish boroughs were added to the represen-
tation when that Duehy was in the hands of the Crown,
by an abuse of the prerogative, if at any time a case
should be made out against them, to strike the of-
fending borough out of the list, and to transfer the
right of a populous town, would be in strict conformity
to the spiri. of the English Constitution.
The Hon. J. W. WARD, said he did not conceive
':hat by voting for a Bill for the disfranchisement of
a burouali in which bribery was notorious, and for
transferring the elective franchise to a populous town,
he was more giving a pledge to what scan called Parlia-
mentary Reform, than he should have done if he bad
voted for the Acts respecting Shoreham, Cricklade, in supporting
and Aylesbury. He would not for the sake of a had bees acct
wall amendment introduce a ;weeping precedent, prevention of t
but where he saw no danger of setting a pernicious and to whieli 1.
precedent, he would not renounce a clear benefit, lie ruling necosaii
said a clear benefit, because the manufacturing dis- them.
tricta stiffcred for the want of representatives, which Mr. MAXW'
was to them, not a fanciful or theoretical, but a prat- Mr. WILMI
tical want. There was, indeed, no great body store- self strictly to
presented in that House ; that was, none that was to the specific
without a sympathising interest aud an able advocate with the gem
within those walls. There were cases in which this In applying r
indirect mode of representation was the best, as it was lie could not
effectual u bile it was not burthensome to the subject. I effect of the
But wheu complicated, private interests aud great for- not be satisfied,
tunes were at stalie, it was fit that the representatives totally expu'
should be persons tinder the snore ionnediaie cogni- transferring
zance of the represented, and as chosen by them en- Leeds, were prepai
joying their more entire confidence. This was a cations of tlic
p)inve Jack case in fitvonr of the transfer to Leeds. ready to support
lf, indeed, by extending the franchise to that town, to the other -
there was a danger of a precedent for changing the Berland, for
whole representation, there would be a ground of oh- West Riding
jection to it ; but when the means of doing what was Mr. B. BA'
desirable was forced upon them—when they were the propriety
obliged to be astute and it ;enjoin in disposing other- House was how
wise of the franchise, there could be no danger of this measure -
a precedent in extending the right to Leeds. He nefit, lie thou,
knew that trete the manufacturing towns were not in applying
represented, their interests were attended to by required. T 1
Members for the County in which they stood : mem had dot
'but thong"' this was an alleviation of the evil, it a remedy as
by no means removed it. County Members, though
novation as
most respettahle men, were perhaps not the most fitted s
representatiL
lw habits and education to manage the intricate and
complicated business of a manufacturing community. A MENDEZ,
ithin the last century interests had grown up, to in support of
which it was to be wished that a more direct represents- opinion, that
tion should he given. Our ancestors would not be sue- most populous
prised if they could see the small dependent Boroughs
of the present day, for those they were well acquainted the principle
constituted.
wills : hut ibt y would he surprised to see towns twice
as large as their Loudon, without a representative.— lily.
(Hear !)—As to the effect of this Bill on those uho were li"erat'm was
not violently bent on a general and theoretical Reform, come the House
it could not be doubted that they would be more satin- or temporizi7
fled if the right were given to a great town. What
signal and
was the striking defect of the present system ? It was
convince the
the unrepresented state of the great towns. prevent corrM
—But of all the grounds of claim to the vacant fran-
chise, local proximity was the least reasonable.—(Hear.) how could the
—How did it happen that the hundred became the heir rant count ti,.
to the deceased borough i—(.l laugh.)—They might as not be adequate'
well, if the Bank of England were proved guilty of cor- of the tummy
rnption, call in the inhabitants of Threadneedle-street,
country wool
as the rightful successors to the forfeited charter. No
nrity of Oa
doubt when the object was to save the electoral rights
of the voters u horn (not having beets proved guilty) read the peopi
Lands of der
they were hound to consider innocent, there was a
reason for calling in the people of the Hundred, but in misled by
this instance how many ware the voters to whom the on these
Honourable i;entlenian (Mr. Gilbert) wished to preserve to Leeds tlsa,
their rights ? 'Euchre, as be understood. much abused
Mr. D. GILBERT said, be proposed to preserve the He could be
elective franchise to all the voters during their lives. Hon. !Remises
They amounted to 40 or 50. Afterwards the right of cornwall had
voting would he given to the Mayor and Corporation,
returning tt
twelve in number.
should ratio
Mr. WARD continued. But after all, what was it
the electors of Grampound bad now ? A good market- than to any
able commodity ;—(llear, and a I'll4o0—and they were the extreme
going to give them in return a dry constitutional fran- by that eon:
clsise. They slimild put out of the case, Cricklade,
Cornwall shool
Shoreham and Aylesbury, which were too recent to be
grace upon
of any authority, and less consistent with ancient usage. inhabitants
Till within the memory of man, there were no such ono-Strom
makes as these half knights half-burgesses. He (Mr. W.) g the
was disposed to live in the old house as long as he which had a
could, hut if a part of it fell down about his ears, he With these
would re-build it as well as he could. When the Re-
Noble Lord'
formers pointed out to him the irregularities of the con ed, as well
stitutional building, he would say, „I will not at all
trust my own powers to pull it down for the purpose of case, as to
re-building it ; ' but lie would also say, " nitro I am
to to that Hots
obliged to alter it, I will do according to a form which p
promises to my judgment strength and convenience."— lighted poll
(Hear, hear.) A MEM
Mr. WYNN said, as to the proportion which had ported the
been calculated between population and represent's. means au ad,
Lion, he was content to rake the Constitution as it was; right of clr
but as to the Bill before the House, be was ready to collecting t
take his stand, on the admission that there was an ad- turned to the
flatted practical grievance (for none but the Member Mr. Aldo
for Galway hsri denied it) in the gross and glaring of " Quest'
corruption of Orainpound. Without the intervention that the Wo
of Parliament, it was well known that notoriously Lord J.
corrupt Boroughs had never been cured. When they was put to .
merely wished to infuse purer blood into a borough, a few remarks
they resorted to the adjoining hundred. That rru- urged again
seeding was, however, a great anomaly, and though submit to the
it had been of use was of modern introduction. lint dearour to
i% the present instance he saw no reason for follow- other side
ing such a precedent The measure proposed by the in favour oi
Noble Lord, or any similar measure, could not pro- Honourable .
duce a material change,. and be liked it the better on or any proposit
that account. The House would nut do its duty if it stitution
looked to the wishes of those who clamoured for Re- Reform were
form, instead of confining itself to the simple consider- contrary,
ation of what was most Isenelleial to the interests of vote for h.
the country. He was perfectly satisfied with the House plan of Reform.
as it was now constituted. They had been told that min had argued
if it represented the opinions of the people, it would env undue share
never Lave consented to pass Bills limiting and abridg- country, "
t ing the popular rights ; but an opportunity had bees Members

immediately aftet.
what was the consequence
not a single instan-
inrurred the
support of those
the proposition
her for Nortl►
measure; hut
Member for North,
more inconveniences
Mr. F. ROP-
shortly the view
fore the House
grounds upon
sure which had
Friend under
Honourable I?,
the principle
the adjoining
the absurdity
•rsmpound won,
able commodity
would hare been
the voters for '
but this was far
cessary fur hir

1116
i . oil
i las. .

Ti STATES - A
)e- aiseasnte o Patitansen ty ht widt p- i frett4ll4 e Cavendish
Ws te present ntoti ; al do so be • v events, thotth sew be believe
rNees e would giro treat p.iMtc satisfaction. He dictated their independence. A
ied was not. however. one of those who thonorba—litat-a of Cornwell, that county had
__ ..... _...1.1:. oviriow. a nitnibrr not very dispronorti4

- .
, .
Ememameismigags 41
cur/Asinine what the teal tenth wu, be. ' inotion of Parliament ••tiaok plow, thee • 0
titer the passing of *those- Bills. Asi VI
consequence? He believed that, vm
listener in which a county Member toi ,ei
wndleiosfprniteheleassikuNreoresblef Lohifirdse ,ctoharnntushigiathtstoentfillibthea VII
tTili‘wo,th Pe
Kt
iorbeanthrupbeuivnreberlantilimpwere.berknirdzbe,see aittogoodiwout
Nitta
tio ril
tio
sitnces at once.
MUNSON wished In explain an,
Pr
ew which he took of this gamin, tite be
as
se came to • decision, and to stew the 11P
s which he was inclined to prefer the law P°
lad been suggested by his Hotiestate
r the Gallery (Mr. D. Gilbert.) so PC
oe
rriend near him (Mr. Ward) objected to
eb
of transferring the elective hackie. ts
( liendreds, and had commented Non
of supposing that the inhabinate ,
would be anxious to exchange a sweet. V.I
ty for a dry constitutional right. Th, ii
icon some weight in this argument if Ali lei
°impound bad been guilty of brawn; tie
far frog) having been proved. It was ft- rat
iin to trouble the Honse at greater length itt
those principles upon which the HoeiA VI
atstomed to art in similar cases, for the wi
r those atones to which they were applied, re
i he was disposed to adhere, unless an over. it
sity could be sbewn for departing has in
re
*
WELL supported the motion. tb
401 thought the House should cosieeit. bi
o the consideration of applying a randy
c grievance, and not mix up this whim et
neral question of Parliamentary Reform el
a punishment to the offending Bareigi, It
ei
put out of his consideration the moral e
decision of the Legislature, and he Omit el
led, if the name of Orampound were set a
ingid. If the Noble Lout opposite, is tl
the, elective franchise to the Borough of ss
prepared to set due limits to the gum.
lie voters, he (Mr. Wilmot) was perfetoiT i
port that measure, and he should prefer it
I
proposition if the Member for Northme
r extending the right of soling to tie
g of Yorkshire. i
ATHUBST, while he fully concurred is t
y of applying some remedy, though tie I
bound to consider the practic,il result of
e ; and in order to secure a practical he. t
ought they ought not to take a wider range, I
a remedy, than the necessity of the caw i
They were bound to look to what Perlis- ,1
one in former instances, and to apply such
s was calculated to introduce as little ie. t I
i possible into the existing state of the
ion. 1
lan, whose name we could not learn, spsin i
of the original proposition, express* his I
at to confer the right of voting upon the 1
lour districts, would be congenial with i
le upon which that Howse was origeary
TLETON said, that the case under tee
ras of such a nature that it would not he
come to meet with any thing like energise
jug expedient, but rather to visit it will
condign punishment. His object waste
e people that that House was disposed ID
ruption in the election of its members, sod ,
that impression be produced if sects Ilag•
tion as that disclosed at Orampouod shosU
uately punished ? By the adoption this, ;
asure proposed by the Noble Lord, the
mid he inspired with confidence in the
sat House, which would thus be enabled to
ople, instead of letting these fall into the
nosagogues, or leaving them liable to he
visionary or vicious schemers. He was, t '
grounds, an advocate for transferring 4,
hat right of voting which had bees es --1
Heel by the electors of Orarnpoold. ,t
oy no means agree with the opinion of tie
her for Bodmin, that where a Borough is
had forfeited by corruption its right of
two Members to that House, that right
her he transferred to the adjoining hoard,
r remote populous district ; for, consider*
le disproportion of representation possessed 1
antv, he could not subscribe to the idea that
hould be blessed with the dew of everlutieg
i the subject of representation, however its
s might abuse their power, or beerier
claim of other and more populous districts
at present no representatives in that Hoaw.
r views he felt it his duty to support the
d's motion, which he hoped would be ateeye
I from a consideration of the justice of the
o restoßribi- confidence of the country
Ouse if it had ever lost this confidence, Set
the principles of a pure, liberal, and ea-
,licv.
I BE R, whose aria we could not learn, sir
e original mattes, *hough he iris by so .
advocated for the gointral shades of the .
lose boroughs to return representatives, so'
that the celebrated Hampden was first et
that House by one of these borougbs.
lemon HEY GATE here rose, but the i t
lion! Question!" was so loud and p
Forthy Alderman sat down.
. RUSSELL said, that before the vanities
) the vote, he thought it necessary to OM
larks upon the objections which bad bees
,inst the motion which he had the bowels,.
the House. In the first plate he shoald *
o rescue his Honourable Friend who, ea *
of the House, bad thought proper to spook
of his motion, from the inspoststion that ate
she Member who should support the prestos,
iposition of Reform. was manes the for
to serious danger ; u, if the priociPie._".
rere once admitted, no one mold say to or
he felt that a Member might eonsisteolli
his proposition and yet resist isAY gelr.,llll
deform. The Hoooerable Member for NW
argued that Cornwall did swot in fact po_sr,
se share In the several representation of
___l°
because, truly, only Are out of Oa fon T.
scion)* et"
I returned by that 4:011111. Kett :k
i