The Statesman.
London, England, 1819-05-04 00:00:00

• riF STArrt$MlN

Isle question he believed the great majority of the
whose strention hail been called to Ir,
had petitioned elision the ei.j.e, of the 111..ti'n•—
rtst Petitions from Ireland spina, the Catholic
Claims were sitasseroos. and respectably signed ; and
"b4liblGer bad been said of poiiinn, with o differesst
prayer, he would still areintaiii, that the majority, at
the Irish Protnia•to were ag.inst conceitaion.-1
Ile did not mean to throw any refection on-thri Pra.l
lestants•bn petitioned its fovo•r el theirltoosatiCstho.
lie brethren. Hr admitted their slumbers tied rropecta•
Wily. bet it ought not to be forgotten from what
quarter the Petitions principally came. At any time
it was well known, that People could he got to sign
Petitions who did not well understand their object.—
At prenut. the Petitions principally tame from the
South and West of behead, where the Rennin Ca.
tholic popelsion greatly predominated, when the
Protestants were few, and in the power of the Ca-
tholics; sad where their motives in petitioning,
therefore, could be easily appreciated. On the other
bend, the Petitions whist the Roman Globulin
errs sent up from greet bodies of men In the North
of the bland. It was to the North that we were
to look for the feeling of the Irish Proteetents,
sod fur the most enlightened opinion on the cows-
lips' before the Ibex That part of the Island
was colonized ender ,lame! I.; it had ever since
been advancing in every kind of improvement, and
had made she greatest primroses in civilizolion,
commerce, nfitteremst, and wealth.--These ad•
trances were owing to the exemption of that pert of
the island from the effects of the Penal Code, which
had berberized therm of Ireland. To this valuable
and intelligent portion of the population, he would
refer for the opinions of the Irish Protestants, sod
he found on the table, petitions from Monaghan,
signed by 40,000 ; from Anisim, signed
by 19,000; from Fermanagh, signed by 9,003; and
from other districts or counties, with nerneroes
signatures, paying that the claims of the Homan
Catholics might not be seceded Loud eats of I
Thor, Ater, haw !) —The.* petitions originated
in no hostility to the Catholics, nor were they pro.
moted alone by theme in the inferior ranks of society,
tense prejudices might be sepposei to be excited on
the subject of religion; but they proceeded from peo-
ple who professed intolerant principles, the great
body of whom were invited by the leading Gentle-
men to ewes their opinions from the salutary wish
of preserving establishments, which further cones.
sion to Catholics they conceived might shake. The
most important Petition in favour of the Catholic
Claims comes from Dublin ; bet it ought to be re-
collected, that the signatures to that document were,
those not snit of the inhabitants of the city, but of
Gentlemen from all parts of the cottony; and after all,
were not so numerous as those of the adverse Petitions. I
Ile did not think, when theso things were taken into
consideration, that there could be any doubt as to the
sentient', of the majority of Irish Protestants oat this
momentriaa question, and he need not inrulcete bow
materially their opposition affected the policy of con.
cessioo. • A second objection which he had to the
motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman arose from the
conduct and feelings of the Catholics themselves. It
would be recollected, that the Petitions for concession
were all silent on the subject of safeguards or securi-
ties. With regard to these severities, then had been
three very different opinions maintained by those who
Weed In the policy of additional concession. S,.rne
thought that no securities were necessary for the Pro-
testants, end that no restrictions on the Catholics
ought to be imposed ; others hut some were races.
slay and might he devised ; and others still agreed
on the specific terms which would satisfy their scru-
ples. Nobody could feel greater respect than be
(Sir. 1. Foster) for those woo brought forward the
Bull in 1813, granting the Catholic political privi.
!meson certain conditions of security. They did all they
could to protect us from anticipated danger; but he
was free to say that their proposals gave no satisfac.
Hoe to a single Protestant that he Peer is.. The
measure was not satisfactory to the Roman Catholic
Clergy themselves. They declared In an enanionoes
Synod, that thes could not 'concur in the proposed
arrangement without interring the guilt of schism,
and that they wool', sooner die than submit to 1L—
(I/ear, hear ! )—What then would hare been the
consequence of passing this Bell. by which the
gisisture would have alarmed the Protestant, by con.
I-elision, and inflicted martyrdom on the Irish Roman
Catholic Bishops, by demanding securities? If the
Right Hon. Gent. could now come forward with
proposals more satiofsclory, let him declare them to
the House; but let him not ask for a Committee, in
which Ise had no deisite propositions to make, and
which might agitate the country with vogue hopes
or alarms, without loading to any certain result.—
He was as sensible as any man of the scimitars of
conciliating the Rosen Catholic Clergy of Ireland.
That hotly bad greet power over their Prop'', and
could give or takeaway their effeetions from any Go-
vernmeet. If the attachment of the People to ea.
lining establishments was to be destroyed, it would
be through the alienation of their Priests; and if it
was to be gained, it would be by a plan of con-
dilating this influential body. Ile would suggest,
that the plan for scoring the friendship and sibyl.
once of this alienated body was not by a Veto,
'bet a Vol.; not by imposing modellers. on
the election of their Bishop., bet by eatesoling
to them a stipendiary provision.—(lleor, hear !)
He would not desile for Ike Crown the poser of
including Episcopal Candidates from their Sees, bet
to faiteerve the Sp... fitted with person, pleasing to
IM Craws.—(llear U—Soch a measure as this afield
bate more effect than ell the Veto., oath of ahjeroa
ties and supremacy pet logether.—[lleac, hear !)
was 'flail!, however, that the measure world
now be impracticable. There wag no term of
abomination *hide had been applied to the Vein
winch would tint be applied to this proposition, :aid
he was sensible to what reproaches he was Imposing
himself by making it.--It would be described
at a vile plan to entrap the senility, and to destroy
the respectable character of the Clerity-----Ile
'belle's,. therefore, that the House might as well
threat a burning torch into a barrel of gunpowder
and expect tranqoillity, SS POW loto a Committee 50
discuss penjee,s for securing the affections of the flo.
man Catho is Clergy, if additions' means were granted
abase of injuring our estobtiahmerst.. For the beers
it of shop oho had not been present on former di.•
Conine if the question, he might meetioe some (acts

0 in the progress of to terosion. It was, as !feted (rely
by tn. we., llorinurehte Gentlemen, new essiet 40
} Pert Since we been o relit the dinar of 11.0 Is 45
' ei.trir •he Ramon Corn.,lies of Irelted. In 177 A, I
'he. ramie Feral n Cody 111•4 repealed, end the Coke-
lies, with revisal tothe right of proierry , were , lured
1 in the some situation with their Pros'esrent brownie/8.
Of this messier* he highly approved. In 1752 hey
! Alit been to aspire to political peeler. At that limo
4 Catholic Convocation selleting in Debits.. yelled
I
, frier thin's as the fen event of their &gram* —.
Piro, fun udiul4en to all legal honours; lectinsek
the capacity of being Grand Jurors; third, eligibility
to the Magistracy ; and foorth, the twill'. Fran.
chile. This last they have received, and by the
401, freehold, the culTrage may he esti to be almost
eniverial in Ireland. Cite them, therefore, the power
of einttng Homan Catholic Mead era, end you kindle
✓eligious enthusiasm. the worst ingredient in a po.
peter, ehecriesn.—(llcor, hear! front the Oppoeitiois
Bereckes]-;•The Honourable Gentleman professed
NA 16 known the object of this cheer ; he was min
it estold Dot prneerd from the 'riot' Nie-nters. Mai
this was periled, they seemed still as dissetisli d es
over. Two years afterwards, they claimed admission
to Parliament so lewdly, that Lord Fitswillent, who
was at that time Lord Lieutenant, on his return to
Eaglets& said, in the British Pediment, .. If theit
domande were not granted, the country would be
throws hits a rebollioe." This habit of being *sm.
holdened by eitseevsion to snake *sew demised, was
not peculiar to the (.tholics of Ireland, but was 11l
necessary part of the Lamers character. At pre-
sent th..y only sought for elieibi!ity ; grant them that,
and they would loos claim possessioe. As an
Littleton he world not COra,idEr the qaestioa
as it regarded the whole of line empire, hot
es it was limited to biked. Suppose ihr w .
fourths of the Members of Parliament, three.fourths
of the Grari.l Jurors of Counties, three.foortha Of
the Magistrates were so be Roman Catholics, sehieli
was the proportions that class bore to the Protest.
ante; after gaining so much inlluence, would they
not demand dietetic, power ? Wou;il they not re.
quire that ell the establidirrents ref the kingdom
should he modelled to their adrauts4e?—Would net
the ecclesiastical part of their community claim their
share of prierleee, and demand I' e establishments
now in the hands of the Protestants ? Ho did not
know, indeed, if In such circumstances esclusinia
from the emoluments of the Church could be do.
fended. But it might be said. that, conoomod
with the British Empire, the Cstnolics of Ireland
Compo•ed a sixth of it. WooSil they not Id
that cue, then, desire a separation from Greet
Britain, as the memos of seeming their mood.
envy? Ile apprehended their two clingers from the
grant of the resew Claims: the sue the overthrow
of the Irish Protestant churCh ; end the other tho
separation of Ireland frog the Empire. He could
not state which would take place first, bet hods ha
thought in the supposed ciresiastleigos would soot
ocCer. There was soother danger is hi.b threatened
es as regarded our relations with a Foreign Power
the Pope claimed supremacy of a part a the Easpiret.
In Ireland ; end the rigidity of allegiance• was as bodk-
in his mind, es the ritality of nations. lie would gel
no feather ihto the osihject. Ile retied his oppnsitioat
to Iher Elation on the dangers which threatened oar
establishmenti. The onion of Church and stale had ale
ways been prbdurrive of peace and internal tranquil.
lily, while their separation led sometimes so war, sod
always threatened strife antennfesiors. In the timm
of Heir); VIII; though otherwise a tyrannical reign,
the effecting of this onion had been productive of
great adventeges; their separation under Queen
Idery•had led to rebellion and persecution ; it wad
restored again ender Elisabeth; it hod Leen again
broken in the reign of James II , and permanently
established at the glorious Retulufloa. It bad
grown up with our coil freedom, end was necessary
for ill security. It had given us quiet, ;list as e
theological dominos, bet as a principle of civil safe-
ly It lends to the Government all its force, and
destroys the an.birion of contending geol. it had,
in all times been the hope and security of the em.
pire.
Mr. CROKER explained. He had not said that
the law was so clear as to preclude the necessity of
the present motion, but that It wag so doubtful as to
melte it nee P

burl MOCNT-CHARI.Ei said, th t if on better
arguments than those which he had jest heard could be
brought against the motion, he thruiht the Mese
would agree to a Committee. He had been 'otiose
to bear the Hight Hon. Gentleinan, became he ea-
peeled from him an outline of every thing that could
be said against the Catholic Clain., and had suspend.
sod his judgment till he beard him ; bet if any al. sbt
existed before, it was new removed. The Right lion.
Gent. bad dwelt mach upon the Petitions against the
mettles; but he would beg leave to say. that Peti-
tions hers were nothing. The question was eat like
on. of imps, where individual, could deliver a littser
opinion from kilos ledge than Ike Government,
hat one of policy, which the Ilksumr would di, ,de
upon its nun information. In agreelag to the mo-
tion and doing justice to the Petitioners, the Hausa
would create a common Interest in the common good,
and would make what wit valuable to all dear to
each. Tease *he refused the grant of common
tut eve Catlt•Nrs violated the principles at
twit and religious liberty, while they vainly die.
claimed tint 'Pawns of persecution ; for he could
give sin other name to a civil diarpedification on
ac-
count of religion, when that disqualification was
ant necessary for the general safety.—(llear !)
The difference between the Resign Corthol;c4 and
PiteoStanta wall not so mach its might have hese
imagined at first sight ; et lee., not so much as to in.
tellers with the discharge of their nolitiell duties.—
They had bosh the lame liiiral deities to dorchaige,
the rime po:itical interests to defend. It was and,
in objection to It e motion, that we had restated the
Pope, and rendered his spiritual indigence sore for.
imitable ; but iu doing so, we had bet raised him to
more than or as mach political importance'. any of
hi. neighbours, south or north. We had net do to
tore for him than for the Date of Tenney nr
King of Naples; though we might hare restarted h ow
In his authority, it wa• beyonJ hiatn•n •wer
to restore the former aye... over which he tratlt.reald erl•
Another srensmeot ass founded span the seppned
a
reedy
elty of
aiet
Alieppritsunt.s.,,Ctisothfoilic :i4..t.ttrivre
was