The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-02-05 00:00:00

that it was
State of Ireland.
tbileentnioti°thna' thtilinekng House to enquire by
Lord GASTLEELEAGII rose and highly eulo-
;Pod %heilfasper Old ufndela ties show% in lb *perch,
,sy the NtsblaLottl Who introduced the motion for a-
Conymichie en the Stitt of Ireland. ; But though he
Mired-thn gedital tenor of his argunients-, and in it
odded acquieseed.ia the aantimeetts-eipresied, yet
he held the measnre,proposed as onelalculajted more
to perplex than'to bee Ot.the' geb)eral -qiieibreafll
felt hirose4howeverauily prepared to assert, that,
CiThltiitio'h thtstr
brti Millen
hribit, tOss'2.4o to sigsiele • the' future
oeglietel god Without-the fel lilmetrt Of'whiet
alt the ediantikeikat tht'lata Elitirois With the' PLliir
dome would not be reaped.--Viedittilitrest-hlreqw.',
I 'fitis; hatriver, he dientedndif to *WI' the:fit' tithe' ikie.!
pressing such a desitaßle'srieastire, and' e*l
Misiion • of that,- hawould'proceed to state' hissoSte'
feelings and-opinions on the subject, under HIP etu
"uitittgappearauee. For his own part, though he felt
the importance and, under peculiar circinnstance, the
utility of the Measure, be had never felt it his duty
to press it open the consideration of that House.--
Ills opinions at along, which the Noble Lord seemed
not to participate 'with-him, were, that such a mea-
sere, when unseasonably proposed, tended to injure
wnd impede its succeisthrtrusiteult the country. No-
thing appeared %efts apt to Mislead and deceive the !
public mind than those menaced annual petitions,.
ape the discussions which would necessarily follow
avow their being. presented to Parliament. Let
Gentlemen, if they would continue their applications
on that subject,. prepare a properly arranged plod
of what.their aims xterei and-not to leave it mode-
a ned,and only to 6e gq.hered• froth the loose sue
gestic:is in their siiceches. If they shOulddo 'so, he
felt assured that Parliament would speedily discuss
their, plan upon its pwrits. But the Catholic claims
---- • id - ' in tar'

iitthiiatellhilotwitethdheasdluacwi
recently did not toed &woken,
t meetinbgees
nteompasousead:
he, would ask, those Honourable Gentlemen for
twat purpose was the Convention Act framed ? If
they did not.mean to attach mert meeting for the
,pqrposes of representation, whom would tl)ty wish
to enact' ? And did the Gentlemen also say,, that
Owle!**Psei weeki• • hew beeteAsiiss seated--amidst-
cor4mitteei.and meetings of the Above description ?
Tidi4th lie' firally=,beavieal tht.'peolple of Ireland
wore not at all infected with that accursed doctrine
'Whl,Ch 44 "their shores from
• •
athelsbed Frau& '' atldtilaft while'•tkj, content-
plated"fhe'prepa4ation' of. a petition to Neliament,'
they alloyed not -theli• tilted to be carried aside by
aq•other consideistion,4et he contemplated them
arpelloiki who ,had delegated men to sit in the
nietrqiitis bf Ireland in a manner to influence
Government to accept more rapidly of their
claims ; sitting, too, irt- the face of the Empire,
to make their repulsive conduct more inauspicious
to their cause'; bringing themselves into legal diffi-
culties with the laws of their country ; but even all
that hindered him not from asserting the general
goodness of the cause. It was hurtful to the law
to prosecute such a man as Lord Fingall, whose vir-
tuoutvand eicellent character had lived through.bad
tithes; slid even a Jury would hesitate, and give a
decision with reluctance against him.—[llear,
heart.-The Government_ of his Grace of Rich-
mond had been highly praised by the Catholics them-
selves for moderation ; and had they kept within the
limits of their native counties, the; might have con..
tinuod to frame petitions unmolested, and even fur-
thered by the Government. No man who ever dis-
passionately examined Into the Catholic restrictions
could contain himself from asserting them to be high-
ly painful and irritatluk to the feelings of the persons
'against whom theY were framed ; but he foresaw a
timr •hr he ' t ~stF 'f Catholics and

•
arraigned others, and was extremely displeased at
the mode in which the speakers succeeded each rebel,
who, he thought should have been marshalled in a
diterent fashion. But really the [louse and the coun-
try had to complain, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr; Ryder) had not proposed Rely plan relative
to the Catholics ; but, perhaps, he might have
been so much engaged with the police and the
nightly watch, that he could not spare time for the
purpose.—[A laugh.]—With reference to the order
of the speakers, he saw no reason that the Itielit
honourable Secretary (Mr. Pole) had to complain;
file the Noble Lord had begun the debate, then
luceeeded to confute him the Learned Civilian (Sir
J. Nicholl), then the Right Hon. Privy Councillor,
then the Learned Lawyer on that side, and so
on in very fair and regular alternation, until they
concluded with the Noble Lord, who combined
his speeek all those various character,. The Right
Hon. Gentleman (Sir J.'Nicholl) had offered in his
speech this undeniable inference, that the whole pe.
nal code sheeld'be continued to tranquillize Ireland;
yet. in his explanation, he disclaimed any intention
of saying that the door should be shut for ever
against concession ; and the Noble Lord had further
explained for him, that he meant nothing more than
shutting the door against indefinite measures. But
among the objections urged against the measure,
none was more generally agreed in than that the time
for discussion was not yet come—all said so, and all
gave different reasons—all were emancipators, but
yet none would go into the Committee : all, even
to the Right Honourable Gentleman on the lower
bench, had reasons, which neverseuld be removed;
so that the Catholic Question seemed to be in the
same state as' the Slave Trade once had been,
which all were desirous to pass—all were abiilt-
tionists, but yet not* would abolish it.—[erics
of hear, hear !] The Honourable Geutleman then
adverted to the speech of the Right Honourable
Gentleman who had sr last • ,ht (M' C9'

had never. bien laid Wore Parliament in .aeir na-
tonid tetra.. Partial statements had been given, but
no total and comprehensive plan had ever been sub-
slitter& :• God forbid that ever the Catholics should
press their cause beyond the proper bounds which
petitioning subjects were required to keep ; and what.
ever the ultimate issue of their claims might be,
they should prepare their minds for quietness and
submission. An lion. Gentleman had enabled hinri
to gather as much from his speech, as, that in the
suing Session a motion,, comprehending the whole
of the Catholic Claims,• world be laid befbre Par-
liament. He agreed with that measure, inasmuch
only as it gave the Government a general view of
the subject, and pointed ow to them what measures
were most necessary to be followed. Three classes
of opinions stood relieved from the general mass of
argument employed on the present. occasion. The
advocates for the first class contended that Govern-
ment should agree to the Catholic claims purely as a
question of right. Ve nexti .of winch
,he confessed
himself to be a diselpie,- proposed to make conces-
sions so far as was proper, consistently with the
general safety of Church and State ; and lastlyap-
peered the class of those wao, without Orly
combined views on the subject, wished it all to ,
be• left fora Committoe to decide upon. Of 'the
Gentlemen who contended
.on the imperative right I
of. conceding the Catholic claims, he was sorry
*to sky that they had she*ein ito inclination to carry
such a point' of claim to a legal issue ; but they
had determined to carry it to the Representative
Tribunal, where the Qiithc4ics'mitht well know they
could never force 'a claim not considered neces-
sary against a Protestant body. Of that they might
have been fully tware, and should have refrained
from urging the prevent measure. But the Catho-
lic Body appeared never to have been consulted on
the present measure, no rational plan had been
arranged, but he had understood Gentlemen to
mean, front their speeches, that no regulation of
the Catholics, as a religious body, was at all in
contemplation; but, in his mind, any pslitical con-
cession would he unsafe without it.---When the
Ron. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) brought forward
his motion is the preceding Session, he remembered
him,to have said, that without an arrangement in
religious matters, the grant of the claims would be
'useless. He understood the 'lrish Catholics had
maintained that no alteration, could be made with-
out the consent of the Pope, a4d that they refused
to accept into their own hands the rights of 'his
Holiness, or to take them
seven from his own
hands when he was under captivity; is they would
suppose him consenting from constraint. With such
difficulties surrounding the question, he thought it
would be impossible to discuss it. He wished
to contemplate the Romiilt" Church cemented with
the Protestant, '"an union 'which we had witnessed'
in other countries prodUctite of most happy and
triumphant consequences • a measure fraught with
such general' good, he Voped might be adopted in
preference to the' ideas thrown out in argument by
the Hon. Gentleman, of giving political freedom,
and allowing theb 'religion to enjoy all its foreign
dependencies along' with the benevolent enfranchise-
inent bestowed at *lame. The"StateSman, he con.'
fessed, would require to be a' bold one who could
prdpose such a measure as allowing a legalized
body of Catholics to live in the kingdom; when
Government found it expedient to make concessions
to the laity, the whole would prove ineffectual un-'
lesi they capitulated with the Clergy, who held these
men's minds in obedience. Even to .that he did not
look forward with strong hope; the present mo-
ment was most decidedly inauspicious : nor did
he eve' think that the Catholic mend had re-
ceived sufficient ?reparation for accepting of the
measure. He perceived an insuperable diffieulty
to be surmounted in the public Protestant opinion,
and the Legislative Restrictions of the country...—
When high in office formerly with Mr. Pitt, he
(Lord Castlereagh) stood between the Catholici
in their determination of petitiouing his • Majesty',
• e
'well knowing the Monarch scold return
tire, though he perceived ntithing in the Coithia•;'
tion Oath to prevent his Majesty from
on the measure—Ulcer, heur!)—prbviding it Wid
not been apparently hazardiil the subversion 'of
the rights of the nation to consent to it. For 'his*
own part, he was anxious always to
_pet benevolent
constructions on the sayings and proceedings
men, but' he could not.refrain from tare-
" 'l/47 illtoughr'

~ne coming when the interests of
Protestants would'be united' and mutual, and- the
Legislature, presidiagroter the whole teaks, would
hold the scales of justice in equal balance *twain
them. ' br.
Mr. WHITBREAD (having caught the Speaker's
eye) proceeded to' say, that he felt extremely sorry
to interfere With the intentions of any of his Hon.
Priends„ but, protracted as the debate had been,
he felt anxious to give his voice in favour of the
motion, whkh had foi ila object the relief of -so
large a' !witted of tbe' inhabitants of Ireland, la-
considerable as, he was with respect to that country,
except as a Member of the United Parliament. Tbb
question had been so involved during this discus-
sion, that it became difficult to understand it, and
to do the Nob!! fiord (Castlereagh) justice, he
had contributed his full- share to that unintelligi-
bility.—[A therefore felt anxious to
recal the proposition of the Noble Mover, with
whom he perfectly agreed in his motion for, a Com-
mittee ; and agreeing also with the Noble 1, Ord
in many of his propositions (as well as he could
understand them), but disagreeing with him in
thinking that the present discussion was injurious
to thg 'Catholic Cause, which, in his opinion,
owed "life and light" to discussion, and to discus-
sion only, by *hid he hoped that it would gain its
Oast and completest tridmph, ho could not concur
With him in the conclusion he drew, after balancing
this difficulty and that danger, now this way and now
that way, that a balance of security was wanting for
the Church and State; and that he finally proposed
for the Catholics a situation in that House • when he
had thus guarded, and fenced, and secured the consti-
tution. The Noble Lord had accused the Noble Mover
with the indefinite nature of his proposition, but if
there was any man to whom they should apply
to take the question out of this indefinite and
uedefinable state, it should be the Noble Lord
himself. He had, introduced. the Coronation Oath,
and staid, that knotring the conSientious scruples
which existed ut a high quartet, though he- did
not concern himself in those scruples, he had
stood betieett the Throne and the Catholict!
But what did be do ?. Why, he shrunk from
the Croifirn—'-aid whj? Because lie Could not carry
thiCitholic Claims. Not becituse the Parliament
objected=not because the People objected, but be.'
cause the King in person objeCted, he and his Col-
leagties took the true constitutional line of condoet,
and resigned their offices, and his Majesty appointed
others who were willing to take the responsibility on
them. ThUNohle Lord bad said, that there was no-
specific promise held out t 4. the Catholics at the!
I Union ; but- there was an understanding that their
efainis would be urged:byldr.Titt, by the Noble Se.i
cretary for Iretand, by the 'connections of Marquis.
Cornwallis, and that it was impossible they should,
not succeed. Would the Noble .Lord, say, that
with all the wealth', With ail the honours, with all.
the power that 'had been put in motion, that the
Union cettld have
,been. effected without . this.
promise? He knew well, that " with all ap-.
pliances and means to boat," that meastue-
'Could not hare been effected without an under-
. standing tin rhe 'Piet Orflie Catholics, That their claims
would be conceded. It was too late for the Noble
Lord to talk of difficulties—it was too late for him
to urge so many thing On one side, and so many on
the other; bow to sccare .and to conciliate, and
regulate, with regard to this, that, and,the Other ;
for if he had not all those matters previously ar-
ranged in his mind, it was impossible he could have
„proposed what gave reason to the Catholics to ex=
,pest that their claims would be granted. But how
' was the question of those difficulties to be decided ?
There were only two means—by the Pretestants or
by the OithOliCS buk the latter had no power—they
had no constitutional mode of meeting to determine—
their meetings might be pronounced legal by one
Jury, and illegal by the next.—(lfear .1 hear !)
The Noble 'Lord had said, that he Understood the,
r:r„et‘ a would not be granted; it might be so ; but he
*slid ask him if, at the Union, the Veto might
' not have been obtained ; and Whether it was not
owing to the delays and difficulties which had been
created, that it was not.? He would fairly ask him,
7whatber he and his colleagues had not been mainly
Necessary to the continuance of those restrictions,
rich,, Clod forbid! 'should be increased ? ' The
ht Hon. Secretary foe Ireland -..t1 to 'think,
- -it Of the Noble lard
hiMself, and

teman wuu ..__ :poken . Ist night (Mr. Can-
ning), one passage of which savoured strongly of
that administration which had introduced the Throne
as a bar to the rights of the.peopie—it contained that
sort of jogging to the country, to rouse them to
be alive again, and to be ready to join in every cry
of " No Popery," that he could not give R his
applause. Of other parts .8f the brilliant elusion
which he had uttered,' he could not speak toohighly.,
" Oh, profound, of ignorance of human nature.!''
said that Right Honourable Gentleman last night,
when he spoke of the disabilities under which the
Catholics laboured ;-and to this he could add nothing
to enforce it ; but was there not an exhilarating ex-
ample presented last night to the House, when a gal..
lant soldier (Gen. Cole), a native of a Sister Kingdom,
had received the hishest honour that mortal man could
receive—the thanks of a free people 1 and when his
1 posterity saw recorded on the Journals of that House
i this proud testimony, they might rejoice in kilt
!so descended ; as might the successor of the Chair
of that house, when he also saw the record of the
manner in which those thauks had been conveyed.
j But to reverse the picture. Was a Catholic No-
' bleman present, and witnessing this proud and ho-
nourable testimony of a nation's gratitude, might
he not have reason to exclaim, with the Right 80-1
1 nourable Gentleman,. " Oh, profound ignorance
lof human nature!" and, returning in indignation,
would not his feelings prompt him, in bitterness of
heart, to say—" My suns may be Ensigns—they
may tread the paths of glory, and deserve the
honours of General Cole ; but reap them, alas !
they ,never can."—[Rear, hear!]—Nor was this a
new !language—those feelings were natural, and
1-the consequence of their operation bad been, that
! la a Foreign Service .they were forced to seek that
reputation which they were denied at home. To
this cause was it owing, that a Lacy, a Sheldon,
! and an O'Farrel had distinguished• themselves oa a
foreign soil—to this cause was it owing; that on
1 the fields of Blenheim, Malplaquet, and Fontenov,
Irishmen were brigaded against you.—[Hear,
I !tear, hear!] He had gone along with the speech
of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) is
' admiration—he thought his arg.nients so co:1-
vineing as to be almost irresistible, mid though
an Honourable Gentleman. had given that-speech
in epithet in which he could not concur (for he
j thought 'it Was not " sails tioquen fur, sat ientie
1 gab um," but " nulls eloquentite, supieutiw salts")--
] Yet he felt no surprise at the want of conviction in
''that Hoit. Uentlemait, for the Right Holt. Speaker
'could. not convince himself. [A laugh.] When
he heard the Right Hon. Gentleman, be almost
forgot who was speaking ; for though he had always
admired the force of his talents, yet he appeared
last night emancipated from patty, divested of the
trammels of office, no longer restricted, but wiih
hiv•plumage all bright and resplendent.—Yet what
had been the result ? He had convinced every one,
but could not obtain his own rote ! "{Hoer, hear!]
—As he listened to' his eloquent periods, he could
not help asking himself—ls this the man who opened
the trenches at Maynooth ?—lir this the man who
concurred with him, that thought the concessions
made to Catholic Officers in Ireland should not
extend to England ?—ls this the man who thought
that a Catholic Bank Director should not be toler-
ated ? is this the man who concurred in recommend-
ing the prototype of the Right Hon. Civilian as a
Counsellor to the King ? Alas ! such is Oa incon-
sisteucy of human nature ? The Right Hon. Cen•
tleman was the same man !—[Hear, hear, hear!]-
This was he who would now concede the Catholic
Claims, provided the public mind was tranquil, and
that animosity was removed. But,..iri 1807, the
whole country was tranquil, when the Member for
Northampton roused the dame of discord, and cu-
rled the cry of ."- No Popery" through the country,
and he who now proposed concession to the Catho-
lics, went with him on his way. Such, again, was
the inconsistency of human nature ! He then ad-
verted to the given by an Hon. Member for
a repeal of the Union, and ridiculed the idea that
it would be a bar to the Catholic claims. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had said they could net he
discussed, while that notice was pending, end yet
talked of the. Union as' a -measure that AO :nun
' could be found to vote for the repeal of.—
But if the claims of the Roman Catholics were mot
taken into consideration,' It was isot solely a disso-
lution of legislation which was to. be apprehend-
_
- '--t a dissolution 'the

ttee or' ' seemed
that the Motion . ..• was niade entirely ,
the total want of policy
_.i6ut the whole of the *id fereience tp .he apper_rect thiuk, I ed, but a t of 'empire: 'Gentlemen misfit
Catholic proceedings. „Gentlemen had expeuded math that the armagemant .
• • • 'leen, • tery'badl y made; be talk very big within the walls of that House; thel
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