The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-10-21 00:00:00

WEST DERBY WARD-TRIUMPH or SCRIPTURAL

PRINCIPLE.

A meeting of the conservative burgesses of West Derby
Ward was held, on the evening of Tuesday, " on important
business connected with the next municipal election." This,
in fact, was a meeting to afford the burgesses an opportunity
of expressing their opinion upon the conduct of Mr. John
Smith, the retiring member for the ward, upon the vital
question of Scriptural education in the Corporation Schools.
That gentleman, as well as Mr. Plumpton, who comes for-
ward in opposition to him as an uncompromising supporter
of Scriptural education, was present. Mr. G. 11. Lawrence
was also present. The meeting, which took place at Mar-
shall's Edge-hill Coffee-house, was very numerously at-
tended, the room being crowded.
Shortly after seven o'clock, the chair was taken by Mr.
JOHN MIDDLETON, who said, that in order that there might be
no mistake he would read a portion tri the placard convening the
meeting. It was " a meeting of the conservative electors of
the ward upon important business connected with the next
municipal election ;" and if there were any persons in the
room of the opposite party, he would suggest that they
should exercise their good taste by retiring. He mentioned
this matter because, before entering the meeting one of the
opposite party had actually attempted to enter the committee-
room. (Hear, hear.) He would only detain the meeting a
few moments whilst he said a few words in vindication of

the conduct of the committee. (Hear. hear.) it had been
asked why was not the present meeting called sooner?
(Hear.) The fact was, that until a week or ten days ago it
was fully expected that Mr. John Smith would have come
forward and made some concessions, which would have ren-
dered such a step unnecessary ; but he (the chairman) was
sorry to say that, instead of that, Mr. John Smith had held
nut a threat that he would heat them by a majority of forty.
(Hear, hear.) He (the chairman) was sorry to say anything
which might be deemed harsh towards Mr. Smith, but he
deemed it right to mention this in order to put the question
in its proper light. You know (continued the chairman)
we have been pointed at with very considerable scorn for
some time for allowing the grand principles of truth to be
abandoned by our representatives (hear, hear) ; and the
time is drawing near when you will have to exercise
that important trust committed to your charge, in the
election of a fit and proper person to represent not only
you but your sentiments in the town council of Liverpool.
(Hear.) If ever there was a time more than another when
it behoved you to be careful in the exercise of such a duty I
believe it is the present time. (Hear.) If you are not
cautious, you are arrived at that point when all the victories
we have obtained, and for which we have fought so hard,
will be thrown into the hands of our enemies. (Hear,
hear.) I, therefore, call upon you to use every exertion to
secure the return of a man who will support sound, Scrip-
tural, Protestant, and conservative principles in the town
council. (Cheers.) Such a gentleman is now willing to
come forward and contest the ward (hear, hear) ; and, there-
fore; every one who properly values the rights and privileges
of Englishmen ought to use every exertion in his power to
secure the return of that gentleman to the town council of
Liverpool. (Cheers.) I will not detain you from the im-
mediate business of the evening further than to request at
your hands a patient hearing for every one who may address
you. (Hear, hear.) I shall deem it my duty to call upon
Mr. Smith, at a certain period of the meeting, to enter into
such explanations as he may think proper, as one of the re-
solutions implies a charge against him. (Hear, hear.) In
conclusion, 1 request for every one who may address you
this evening a patient and a candid hearing. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SANDARS said the first resolution had been placed in
his hands ; and, although he was sorry it had not been con-
fided to some person more able than himself, he had great
pleasure in moving it. It was as follows—" That, in the
opinion of this meeting, Mr. John Smith, in the town coun-
cil, within the last three years, has not conducted himself in
such a manner a, to entitle him to a further confidence of
the electors of this ward." Loud cheers.)
Mr. RATCLIFFE said he had been requested by the com-
mittee to second the resolution just moved by Mr. Sanders,
and he confessed he did so with mingled feelings of pain and
pleasure ; of pain, that there existed the necessity to come
forward at this period and protest against the conduct of their
representative in the Town Council, but also with some de-
gree of pleasure, for he always took pleasure in standing for-
ward to defend those great principles which had been, and
still continued to be, the glory of this Protestant land,—
(loud cheers)—to defend those principles which he had im-
bibed in his childhood, and his attachment to which had
grown with his growth, and strengthened with his strength.
(Applause.) He confessed he was but a humble individual,
and that he had not the eloquence of many ; but though he
had not an eloquent tongue he had an English heart, a heart
that beat with warm attachment to our gracious sovereign—
(cheers)—a heart that glowed with warm affection to that
Protestant church which was the bulwark of our country and
the glory of our land. (Applause.) A mighty struggle had
for some time been going on in this town, with respect to
which the electors of West Derby Ward had great reason for
congratulation ; for whilst the other wards had been misre-
presented by the radicals, they had, ever since the passing of
the municipal bill, returned to the Town Council men only
whom they believed to be sound, genuine, consistent conser-
vative Protestants. (Cheers.) But he was sorry to say that
the confidence reposed in some of those gentlemen had been
betrayed—(cheers);—and therefore they were driven to the
step, about to he taken this evening, of protesting against
the proceedings of Mr. Smith. and of proposing a gentleman
who, they believed, would more fully carry out their views in
the Town Council. (Cheers.) lie might be asked, "What
is the objection against Mr. Smith? Is he not a most re-
spectable man ?" He believed he was; all he knew or heard
of him was that he was a most respectable man, nor was he
wanting in talent. It was not upon that ground therefore
that they protested against him, but it was against the prin-
ciples lie had lately advocated in the Town Council. (Hear,
hbar.) It was not with Mr. Smith's person they had to do,
but it was with the principles be had of late espoused.
(Hear.) Bear with him (Mr. Ratcliffe) a little time, whilst
he endeavoured to substantiate the charge which he made
against Mr. Smith,—that he had betrayed the confidence re-
posed in him. He held in his hand a copy of a paper, called
the Liverpool Mail, of 2d Decembr, 1841. In that print he
found a speech of Mr. Smith in a debate which took place
upon the school question in the Town Council, and he was
there reported as saying " that nothing would give him greater
pleasure than to see the present momentous question brought
to a conclusion. Never could peace or unanimity be expected
to prevail until this millstone were entirely removed. Never
could the cause of true conservatism he placed on a firm and
lasting basis until this religious firebrand had been altoge-
ther extinguished. Ardently and sincerely attached to the
church to which he belonged, he was not so uncharitable
the
benefits and blessings of edu-
cation, from the children of the Roman Catholics." Then,
a little further on, lie found that Mr. Smith moved " that
it be an instruction to the committee to examine into,
and report upon, the propriety of providing separate schools
for the use of the children of the Roman Catholic poor."
Here, he (Mr. Ratcliffe) thought was a proof that Mr. Smith
had betrayed the confidence which the electors reposed in
him. (Hear.) Mr. Smith came forward as a conservative;
he was returned as a conservative, and he, as a professed con-
servative, had betrayed the confidence reposed in him; for
if Mr. Smith was in favour of the system of education car-
ried on by the late radical Town Council, why did he not
come forward and avow it ? (Cheers.) If he had so come
forward and manfully mowed his principles, he (Mr. Rat-
cliffe) felt persuaded he never would have been returned to
the Town Council by the electors of West Derby Ward.
(Loud cheers.) Mr. Smith spoke of educating the Roman
Catholics, and be seemed to appeal to the sympathies of the
town in behalf of educating the poor Roman Catholic child-
ren, in whose behalf he proposed that two schools should be
built. Now, they had no objection to the education of Ro-
man Catholics—(hear);—tile question with them was not
what persons they should educate, but what principles they
should inculcate. (Hear, hear.) Doubtless it was the duty
of a Christian community to educate the infidel, but in what ?
Were they to educate in infidelity? No; certainly not,
but to educate him in Christianity. Doubtless it was the
duty of a Christian country to send the gospel to a benighted
heathen, and to instruct them, but to instruct them in what ?
In heathenism? No, but in Christianity. Doubtless it was
further the duty of a Christian community to send the gospel
among the Jews, and to educate them, but to educate them
in what? In Judaism, No, but in Christianity. Doubtless,
in like manner, it was the duty of a Christian community to
educate Roman Catholics, and to instruct them, but; to in-
struct them in what? In the principles of Popery? No, but
in the principles of Protestantism. (Loud cheers.) They
had no objection, therefore, to the education of Roman Ca.
tholics ; it was not to their persons they objected, but to the
instilling into them of principles at variance with the Word of
God, and which were, consequently, injurious to their souls.
(Hear, hear.) As Mr. Smith had thus come forward to teach
and inculcate the doctrines of Popery, they, as a Protestant
community and as conservative electors, protested against
him. (Loud cheers, mingled with a few faint cries of " No,
no.") He had read Mr. Smith's words; and now he would
read the resolution which he proposed in the council. He
proposed that two schools should be built for teaching Ro-
man Catholics exclusively. Now, he asked Mr. Smith,
would he propose in the Town-council, that, in those schools
so to be built, the children should be taught the authorised
version of the Scriptures—that they should be educated in
the principles of Protestantism, or in the principles of Po-
pery ? If he meant that they should be exclusively for Ro-
man Catholics, and that the Roman Catholics should there
be taught the principles of Protestantism—that they should
be there taught according to the authorised version of the
Scriptures, then he (Mr. R. ) for one, had no objection ; but if
Mr. Smith meant to say diat Protestant money should be
expended, and Protestant sanction given to the erection of
separate schools for the teaching of Popery, then he told Mr.
Smith, candidly and honestly, that he, for one, could not
vote for him. (Cheers.) But to proceed a little further.
Mr. Smith, he found, endeavoured to rebut a charge which
had been brought against him : this was in a debate upon the
same question in the Town-council in the month of January
this year. He then said he had great pleasure in seconding
an amendment made by Mr. Turner. The original motion,
upon which Mr. Turner moved his amendment, was " the
confirmation of the report, touching the future management
of the schools." Mr. Turner moved an amendment as fol-
lows—" That the proceedings, resolutions, and reports of
the Education Committee be approved, with the following
exceptions :—That at the end of the first article of the re-
port, namely, that the school shall commence in the morning
and close in the afternoon with singing a hymn and with
prayer,' there be added,—' but no child whose parents or
guardians shall signify their conscientious objections thereto
shall be obliged to attend those services. That at the end of
the second article of the report, namely—' that none but the
authorised version of the Bible shall be used in the schools,
and that the same shall be used without restriction or limit,'
there be added—' except as to children whose parents or
guardians may conscientiously object thereto, which children
shall still have the benefit of the secular instruction other-
wise afforded by the schools.' And that corresponding
alterations be made by the committee in the second rule
(already quoted) and the fourth rule, namely—' that the
children of the upper schools shall be required to attend on
Sundays, in the morning at half-past nine, for religious in-
struction, and to proceed to church, and in the afternoon at
half-past two ; and that the eleventh of the same rules,
for the calling of the roll, be adapted thereto." Mr.
Smith seconded this amendment, and said—" He rose
with great pleasure to second the amendment made by Mr.
Turner. In doing so, he would avail himself of the oppor-
tunity to set himself right in the eyes of the council and the
public at large with respect to the proposition he had brought
forward on the school question on the second of the former
month. For the course pursued by him on that occasion,
when be suggested the propriety of erecting separate schools,
in order that instruction plight be afforded to the Protestant
and Catholic children, he had been taunted not only with the
charge of inconsistency, but with a desertion of principle also."
He (Mr. Ratcliffe) did not know who had made the charge,
but here Mr. Smith was endeavouring to meet it. Now, let
him see whether the charge of inconsistency could be sub-
stantiated. He held in his hand a speech delivered by Al le
Turner in that very room, at a dinner given in November,
1840, to celebrate the return of Mr. G. H. Lawrence. Be
was reported as saying in that speech—" When last he had
the honour of addressing the electors, be told them that a
change was workinc, in the public mind with regard to 'mu-
nicipal affairs ; and would now ask, was be wrong or right
in that opinion? He would let the result of the late
elections give the reply. What had rejected Mr. Rath-
bone from Pitt-street Ward? and what had rejecthd him that
day from North Toxteth Ward? Public opinion. What
bad rejected Mr. Blackburn, by far the most able as well as
the most eloquent, and therefore the most dangerous of the
party, from Lime-street Ward ? What, but public opinion ?"
Mr. Smith had not here told us upon what question it was
that public opinion had rejected Mr. Rathbone and Mr.
Blackburne ; but, evidently, it was " the school question."
(Hear.) When they came into power what did they do ?
They took out the authorised version of the Scriptures from

the schools ; and they introduced the Popish or Douay ver-
sion of the Scriptures. They put out the church catechism ;
and they put in the Popish catechism. They insulted the
clergy and turned then* out ; and in their place Popish priests
were admitted. These were facts that could not be denied
The town felt the insult ; it rose with indignation, and this
very question, " the school question," was the very means
of driving Mr. Rathbone and Mr. Blackburne out of the
council. (Great cheering.) That very question; if it continued
to be agitated, would kep them out—(renewed cheering) ;
and though he did not pretend to be a prophet, he should not
be surprised if that very same question was, like a millstone
round Mr. Smith's neck, to keep him out of the council.
(Cheers.) These were some of the objections which he, as
an individual elector, had to Mr. Smith. He had made up
his mind some time ago, although he had voted for him twice
before, that if Mr. Smith came forward again, not to give
hon his vote, on this account ; and he congratulated the elec-
tors of 'West Derby Ward upon having courage, boldness,
and decision enough to come forward in this public way, to
enter their protest against the proceedings of Mr. Smith in
the Town-council.—After a few general observations, Mr.
Ratcliffe concluded by seconding the resolution.
The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution, and it was car-
ried all but unanimously, as only three hands were held up
against it. Having announced the result, the Chairman
added—lt has been thought by some around me, that it
would have been a better course for the to have called upon
Mr. Smith for any explanation he may have to give, before
putting the resolution. I differ from them ; inasmuch as I
wished to see the sense of the meeting in the first instance,
and also that Mr. Smith should himself see it. Their deci-
sion has now been made. (Cries of " Hear, hear! " and
some disapprobation.)

Mr. SMITH (who spoke under considerable excitement)
immediately rose and said—l was prepared to address you
in vindication of my political conduct, but I think you have
now been putting the cart before the horse, and therefore I
shall decline it. (Hear, hear.) I came here, as I under-
stood, upon the invitation of Mr. Brassey and ethers, to be
treated at least with gentlemanly feeling ; but instead of that,
the first thing I find is a kind of hostility that reflects little
credit either upon the heads or the hearts of those who have
got it up. (" No, no," and some applause.) I shall not,
however, be deterred, on account of the decision of this
evening, from going forward, and I have no fear for the re-
sult when 1 do come before the electors of West Derby Ward.
(" Hear' hear," and cries of " You 'll be beaten.") I was
prepared to address you ; but I am not prepared to address
you now, after the manner in which my name has been re-
ceived ; I have too much spirit for that ; no, no ! (Cheers.)
—Mr. Smith then sat down, but after the lapse of a few
moments he again rose and added—There is, however, one
observation which the chairman referred to on which I will
say something : it was about my holding out a threat. I
beg leave to say, that it arose from this circumstance : in the
course of conversation, some four or five weeks ago, with an
individual respecting my election, I stated that if this ward
were contested, I thought I could win it by a majority of
forty. It has been endeavoured to be proved that I said this
in a hostile spirit; but I declare, upon the honour of a gen-
tleman, I had not the slightest wish to wound the feelings of
any individual in the ward. I trust, therefore, after this ex-
planation, that this will not be used as a reason for ejecting
me from the ward. If you had allowed me to make my ex-
planation before you passed that resolution, I should have
addressed you, but now I sha'nt. (Ironical cheers.)
Mr. WILSON said, that, after the very able speech of his
friend upon his left (Mr. Ratcliffe), lie had very great plea-
sure in proposing for their representative a neighbour, a
gentleman well qualified in every respect to represent the
interests of the ward in the town-council, and one who, no
doubt, was known to most of those present. He would read
the resolution, only adding that lie was authorised to say that
Mr. Plumpton had an undying hostility to the system of
education lately carried on in the corporation schools (great
cheering)s—to that system which, he was happy to say. had
become defunct through public opinion, and also by the lax
of the land. (Renewed cheers.) Mr. Plumpton had not
only an undying hostility to that, but to any other system
of education which was not based upon the unrestricted and
unmutilated Word of God. (Cheers.) Mr. Wilson con-
cluded by reading the resolution, which was to the effect
that James Plumpton, Esq., was a fit and proper person to
represent West Derby Ward in the town-council, and that
that meeting pledged itself to use its utmost exertions to
secure to the electors the services of that gentleman. (Loud
cheers.)
Mr.-FRANK seconded the resolution, and it was carried
unanimously.
Mr. PLC.:UPTON, amidst loud cheers, was then introduced,
and the resolutions having been read to him, he said lie re-
turned his best thanks to the worthy chairman, and to the
meeting individually, for the honour paid to him in selecting
him as a candidate for their suffrages. He hoped, however,
that he might claim their indulgence for the very few obser-
vations which he was about to make. In the first place, he
belived he bad not been brought before them on account of
any merit of his own, but solely because he was a supporter
of those principles which one of their representatives had just
been taxed with abandoning. (Loud cheers.) Compara-
tively speaking, lie was a stranger to many present—more,
indeed, than he ought to be ; but born as he was in this ward,
and his fathers before him, he would take the liberty of assuring
theca that he had the highest veneration for the constitution,
both in church and state, and that he would make it his
earnest endeavour to support that constitution. (Cheers.)
From infancy he had been brought up in true conservative
feelings (hear) ; and when he stated that he was a ward of
that staunchest of conservatives, John Bridge Aspinall, he
thought it would be admitted he had been " true blue" from
infancy. (Loud cheers.) All his feelings were identified
with the maintenance and support of the church. (Cheers.)
He should not trouble the meeting with any allusions to the
divisions which had taken place in the ward ; but he would
assure them that if he should have the honour to be returned
as their representative, they would find him an unflinching
supporter of the venerable church to which he had the happi-
ness to belong. (Loud cheers.) No half measures would he
ever advocate. (Loud applause.) His motto was, "Those
who are not for us are against us !" (Immense cheers.)
That motto he would repeat and act upon, whether be should
be considered worthy of their suffrages or not. (Cheers.)
With these observations he should sit down, first thanking
them for the handsome manner in which they had been
pleased to receive his name. (Great cheering.)
Mr. GEORGE HALL LAWRENCE then roas , amidst con-
siderable applause. lie said he was happy to see himself
surrounded once more by the conservatives of West Derby
Ward, for to them lie owed the very little importance which
he might have—to them he owed the position, however
trifling it might be, which he occupied in the town council.
(Hear.) They were the first persons who, upon the strength
of conservative principles, which he then professed, brought
him into notice s and he would fain hope that he bad done
nothing as yet to forfeit their esteem. ( Hear.) Two years ago
it was since last he had the honour of addressing them in that
room. Since that period great and important changes had
taken place; but he trusted that nothing had occurred to
damage their mutual attachment to those principles they
then professed, or which would prove that he had done any-
thing to forfeit their esteem. Upon several occasions he
might not have gone the whole length of those to whom his
friend on his left, whose name he had not the pleasure of
knowing, (Mr. Ratcliffe) was attached. True it was, upon
several occasions—and he alluded particularly to the educa-
tion question—he had been, in the language of a gentleman
who had just spoken, somewhat of a trimmer (hear, hear);
but, whatever he had done, he had done it with a sincere and
honest conviction ; and if he had erred upon that question,
vital and important as he acknowledged it to be, still they
must give him some credit for honesty of conviction. (Hear,
hear.) It was, he thought, hard, after they had been de-
feated by the radicals year after year, and bad now gained
the victory, to find them differing among each other ; but
it should never be his plan to cause greater differences than
he could well help ; and if it should be their pleasure to
think that he had forfeited his word, they had only to say
so, and from that moment he would retire. (Hear, hear.)
With regard to the education question he must say this, that
no man had fought harder than he had to oppose the system
which the reform party had established ; no man was a
greater enemy than he was to neutrality in religious educa-
tion ; no man was more opposed than he was to that uni-
formity of religious instruction which was attempted under
the reform party, and which, he was perfectly satisfied,
would end in no religion at all. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Throw away what were called religious differences, and you
throw away the very stability of religion itself. (Hear,
hear.) This was his feeling upon that point. if the town
council was to be an educating body, which he greatly re-
gretted it had become, it must teach a religion, or it must
place some religion within the reach of all. Now, he for his
part, would teach no other religion but the religion of the
Church of England. (Cries of " hear, hear," and cheers.)
Let them hear him out. The Town-councll was not a fit
and proper body to sit in conclave, and solemn deliberation
upon which creed was the hest; the Town-council is not
elected, nor would it be fitting and becoming in the Town-
council, to disseminate Popery on one side, and Church of
Englandism upon the other ; the religion of the Church of
England upon one side, and the religion of the Church of
Rome upon the other. There must be nothing of that kind
to please him—(hear, hear) ;—upon the contrary, he would
teach the religion of the state, and that authoritatively.
(Hear.) He should have no objection to a Church of Eng-
land clergyman being appointed the inspector of the schools,
to see that the creed taught to the Church of England chil-
dren was right and true ; but, upon the other hand, they
must excuse him when he said this, that he felt the greatest
posssble difficulty in forcing children, if their creed was at
variance with our own, from partaking in that religious in-
struction. I had remembered that the funds of the corpora-
tion of all, and that it would be wrong to
use werethem thefor property
pfirsoesratkye of Protestants solely. With these
feelings and opinions, ignorant and erring as he very likely
might be, he had ventured to say, though he had met with
no support, that though he would not teach Popery in the
Corporation Schools, yet he thought a middle course might
be adopted. (Loud cries of " No, no.") Let them hear
him before they condemned him. He did think it was just
quite possible, that they might venture to give secular in-
struction to those who differed from them, provided they
could obtain some good and sufficient guarantee that their
religion might be discarded. He knew he should be told that
education without religion was good for nothing.—(hear,
hear,)—and he leaned to that opinion very much himself.
Upon the other hand, he did think that some guarantee, such
as he had alluded to, might be given, so that they might do
something for those poor benighted Roman Catholic chil-
dren. If this was a question in West Derby Ward
merely, or in Liverpool alone, little consequence would
attach to the discussion of it ; but it was a question
which had branched far and wide ; it was a question that
would have to be met, not only in this ward and this town,
but also by the nation; and they who were differing from him
in this matter to-day (and he would honestly confess that in
all probability they were right) would very shortly be differing
from Sir Robert Peel, from Lord Stanley, and from a con-
servative administration itself. (Hear, hear.) De drew a
distinction between the education of the poor from corporation
funds in corporation schools, and education of the poor from
the funds specially contributed for their relief. What was
the opinion of her Majesty's ministers ? Certainly their
opinion was entitled to respect: and what was their opinion ?
He would venture to tell them : lie would tell them what Sir
Robert Peel, and Lord Stanley, and Sir Edward Knatchbull,
and Sir James Graham, had pledged themselves to support ;
and he woulk ask them whether that was the kind of educa-
tion which would suit them? He would not go the length
of saying that it was the kind of education which he would
himself support, or that he was prepared to authorise ; but
still he would show them what the government had pledged
itself to. He held in his hand a clause from an act of parlia-
ment brought in the other day, for the education of the poor
in this country, and which they would see in operation here,
for the foundation was already laid of a splendid school in
West Derby Ward, or at least within the township. The
government had established such schools ; and the principle
upon which Sir Robert Peel proposed that the school should
be conducted was as follows. He would read the clause in
the mat of parliament :—" Provided always and be it enacted,
that every such board shall appoint at least one chaplain of
the Established Church, who shall regulate the religious in-
struction of the children, except the children of persons aho
object to the Liturgy of the Established Church ; in which
case it shall be lawful for any licensed minister of the religious
persuasion of the parents of such child to visit such child, for
the purpose of instructing such child in the principles of his
religion—subject to the regulation of the commissioners."
These were the feelings of her MaiestY's ministers. To be
man of whatever
denomination, schools under
sure they authorised the establishment of a clergyman, and
i
so far so good ; but they would obseave the law provided that
suesuch
Unitarian
regulations
agr
ssh
might have
convenience
eenf everyireene other tchmceeirsg
access to
This clause
or
he produced to show what were the feelings of her Majesty's
ministers upon tbis subject; and that in a very abort time
there might be more differences on this question than those
which were now confined to West Derby ward. This ar-
t rangement, would it meet with their approval, in the corpo-

ration schools? (Loud cries of " No.") It would not meet
his. The plan which he proposed, he thought infinitely
better than this, because it could hardly be practically well
worked out in this town. He offered this matter for their
consideration, and really with the view that they should see
how very great the difficulties were in dealing with a ques-
tion of this sort. As to himself, anything they might
please to do to him for his opinions was perfectly im-
material. If they thought they could find a better represen-
tative, a more staunch conservative, a more thorough
Protestant, or one more Orange--if that was the word they
prefeired—(hear, hear)—for God's sake let them find one,
and he should be ready to retire at a moment's notice.
(Hear, hear.) He wished to be the representative of con-
servatives : he would only be the representative of conser-
vatives—(cheers)—for he was a conservative, and wpuld
always remain so; but, if they thought they should like to
have a person who would come forward to thwart the go—
vernment of Sir Robert Peel, to assist them in exterminating
Popery, not by educating their children, but by imposing
fresh penal disabilities upo❑ Roman Catholics—if that was
their feeling, then he was not a fit and proper representative
for them. (Cheers, and cries of " no, no.") He was glad
to find that there was no feeling of that sort. They might
differ, perhaps, on minor matters among themselves, but
there would not be any difference of great moment, and on
that they were agreed. He had spoken warmly, and without
much premeditation ; but he had spoken his sentiments with
great sincerity, and they must believe him when he said he
had done so with a sort of pleasure, whilst, at the same time,
he felt himself efficient only so long as he had their confidence
and that of the conservative party, to which he had the ho-
nour to belong. (Cheers.)
Mr. SANDARS said the plan of-education referred to by
Mr. Lawrence was now in operation, and in the Union
Workhouse of West Derby, and had been so for three or
four years. (Hear.) The late government had established
it, and it had since been continued. In fact, it was esta-
blished by Lord John Russell, and not by Sir Robert Peel.
He (Mr. Sandars) was a guardian of West Derby Union, and
he knew that this was the fact. There was a chaplain, and
the Roman Catholic priest went to the Workhouse.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE, in explanation, would state that
the clause he had quoted was a clause from the new poor-law
amendment bill. Mr. Sandars surely did not mean to say
that in the workhouse to which he alluded they compelled
the Roman Catholics to learn the Church Catechism, or to
read the Protestant version of the Bible ?

Mr. SANDARS.—We have no Catholic books there, nor
the Douay Bible.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—I hope not :so much the better.
The proceedings then terminated, and the meeting sepa-
rated.

SHIPMASTERS' ASSOCIATION.-ADJOURNED

MEETING:

On Tuesday evening an adjourned meeting was held at the
rooms of the association, in Oldhall-street, for the purpose
of expressing the opinions of the body of shipmasters upon
the provisions of the bill for the regulation of the merchant
service, proposed to be brought forward by Captain Fitzroy,
R.N. The meeting was very numerously attended. The
chair having been taken by Captain CH AMLEY, the proceed-
ings of the last meeting were read over by Mr. Moss, who
also touched briefly upon the. dissensions which had sprung
up amongst the shipmasters upon the subject of this bill, and
the insinuation of interested motives in the course which had
been taken upon it, which had been directed against the
committee and officers of the association. The committee
were to a man opposed to this bill; but they admitted the
necessity of legislation upon the subject, and had called the
body together to endeavour to strike out the most objection-
able clauses which Captain Fitzroy had introduced, and to
form, if possible, a bill, which might he tolerated.
The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put to the meeting the
32nd clause, which provided in the usual way for the renewal
of lost or worn out certificates, upon which . Captain BISSET
rose, and in a speech of some length, denounced the entire
bill as most iniquitous and unjust, and stated that if the
alternative was offered him he would prefer having no bill at all
to adopting the present. They should unite and get the obnox-
ious clauses altered. Agreeing to the whole bill he thought
was equivalent to signing away their birthrights. He ob-
jected in particular to the payment of fees for the proposed
certificates. A similar board, in Newcastle, to those. pro-
posed by Captain Fitzroy had worked well, and exacted no
fees. The East India Company's board of examination took
no fees ; and what class of men had conferred a greater lustre
upon the bine jackets of England than this service? Captain
Bissett concluded without making any motion. The meeting
was next addressed by Captain TILLEY, who spoke like the
previous speaker on the principle of the bill itself, which he
considered derogatory to the merchant service. He himself
had made twenty-six voyages, and had never claimed from
an underwriter. He had gone to sea a poor boy, and had
worked himself up to the command of a vessel ; and he con-
sidered that by the present bill men of similar standing to him-
self would be insulted and injured. He would never consent to
submit to such an examination as the one proposed.
Mr. ROWETT here rose, and in a long speech, which we
cannot find room for, gave in his resignation as an officer of
the association. It was then proposed and carried that all
fees under the bill should be abolished, and that the exa-
mining boards, if auy, should be local, and unconnected with
each other.

The next clause was then proceeded with, when a long and
desultory and rather warm discussion ensued, the feeling of
the meeting being almost unanimous to veto the bill altoge-
gether. At the close an adjournment to two o'clock this
day was proposed, and finally carried.

SUPPLYING WATER FOR THE EXTINGUISH-
MENT OF FIRES, &c.

Mr. Ashlin's plan for supplying water in cases of fire, and
also for watering the streets, having excited a good deal of
attention, several letters have appeared in the newspapers on
the subject, one of which was inserted in the Liverpool
Times, of Tuesday last, signed " An Experienced Engineer,"
condemnatory of the plan, on the ground of the alleged cor-
rosive effects of salt water in iron pipes. The remarks of
the writer of that communication have induced Mr. Grant-
ham, a gentleman of experience in these matters, to address
a letter to Mr. Ashlin on the points in question, which we
deem of sufficient importance to submit a copy of. The facts
adduced appear to us to prove that the objections set forth
by " An Experienced Engineer" are founded in error, if
not, indeed, wholly groundless ; but the subject will doubt-
less be further discussed by individuals more competent than
ourselves to arrive at a correct conclusion :

" Liverpool, October 18, 1842.
" MR. CAPES ASHLIN,
" DEARSIR,-[-laving for some time given my attention
to the subject of your proposal for providing or supplying of
water to be used in extinguishing fires in this town, I feel
great pleasure in expressing an opinion on the objections that
have beeil raised against it, and which were published in the
Liverpool Times of this day.
" I cannot better reply to the first objection, viz., that
iron pipes containing sea water will corrode rapidly,' than
by quoting a passage bearing on this question from a clever
London periodical: The rusting or oxidation of iron in
water takes place from the union of the oxigen of the water
With the iron ; and it is essential, in order that this union
may take place, that the constituents to be combined should
be in a state of repose; thus, iron with a clear surface im-
mersed in a running stream will not have its surfaces oxidized
in any length of time, however great. Now, as iron placed
in a running stream and iron moved rapidly through the
water present the same conditions with respect to oxidation,
the freedom of the latter from rust is no more than might be
expected.'
" A good practical chemist of this town has given a fa-
vourable opinion of this view of the subject, and my own
observation and experience lead me to the same conclusions.
" Another favourable circumstance is in operation with
regard to water-pipes in streets, viz., the temperature is very
low, and the change of temperature small—conditions that
greatly retard oxidation.
" It may also be observed, that the outside of pipes re-
quired for sea water is subject to no greater loss from oxida-
tion than the outside of those used for fresh water.

" I am, therefore, of opinion, that salt water will not cause
any additional oxidation on the pipes, beyond what will be
amply provided for by a slight increased thickness of metal.
The precautions should also be used of setting the water
frequently in motion, and keeping the pipes full.
" I have made inquiries at the Baths, on the George's
Pier-head, and have been informed that very little corrosion
has been perceived in the cold-water pipes, and I cannot
learn that any have ever given way.
" All the other objections are matters of detail not neces-
sary to reply to, as, should they exist, they may easily be
obviated by the adoption of larger pipes.
"The question of expense, however, may deserve some
attention. I believe the general plan to possess so many ad-
vantages, i tappears to strike so completely at the root of the
evil proposed to be remedied, and it holds out so many colla-
teral recommendations, that I should much regret to see the
first cost made a stumbling block to its adoption. I should,
on the other hand, much prefer seeing it carried out on a
liberal and comprehensive scale.; much more so than you, I
think, have contemplated.
" I do not know what is the freshwater plan alluded to in
the Liverpool Times; but I cannot imagine that any one,
embracing the same objects, can be executed at a less outlay
than yours.

(Signed)

" I am, dear Sir,
" Yours truly,
"JOHN GRANTHAM."

A. PATERNAL GOVERNMENT.—A letter from Alexandria
has the following :—" We have lately been spectators of a
somewhat stirring scene. His Highness the Pasha was on
horseback, passing through the Frank quarter of this city,
and when he came to the end of the great square, a poor in-
valid soldier, who had lost an arm, not having been able to
present a petition to the Pasha in the palace, hoped to do it
in the publie streets, when he was certain the eye of the
Pasha was turned towards him. Hardly had be made the
simple act of presenting it, when the Pasha made a sign to
one of his suit, and the unfortunate creature was seized in
the public streets and bastinaboed with all the force of such
hardened and barbarous men. The miserable creature,
lamed with the blows he had received, deafened all the neigh-
bourhood, when another chief of the Pasha's suit gave another
order, still more barbarous. He said to the executor, Give
it to him over the head hard, and then he'll not be able to
cry out.' After some blows, he was left there as an example
to all those who should go and raise their voice before that
Prince whose greatness is derived from the aid of those un-
happy people, and who, begging to-day for a crust of bread,
are treated in that barbarous manner. '—Galiyyani's Mes-
senger.

AN ATROCIOUS CRIMINAL.—We know not that we ever
read or hard of a more ridiculous farce than that which was
enacted yesterday at the Middlesex sessions, before Mr.
Sergeant Adams and a full bench of sapient, awful-looking
magistrates. It seems that a young urchin named Shannon,
who has scarcely yet escaped from his leading strings, was
induced some days since, at the instigation of the Devil, to
make free with a twopenny pie, and, not content with this
fiendish act of atrocity, to transfer the abstracted dainty to
that receptacle for stolen goods, his mouth, with a rapidity
and recklessness which shows how complete was the ascen-
dancy which the Evil One had acquired over him ! To ag-
gravate the enormity of his crime, the abandoned malefactor
actually attempted to make free with a second pie, but, for-
tunately for the ends of justice, he was detected before he
could accomplish his diabolical intentions ; and the result cf
this providential discovery (for provide.ntial it certainly must
have been) was, that two formidable indictments were brought
against him, duly setting forth the particulars of his guilt,
with that eloquent and captivating minuteness for which the
law is so remarkable. He was, in consequence, introduced
yesterday to the special notice of Mr. Serjeant Adams, when
the prosecutrix having given her evidence, witnesses were
called to character, and two or three Irish labourers bore
triumphant testimony to the unsullied purity of the prisoner's
morals, by observing that he " could run of an errand as
well as any boy in the three kingdoms." Of course, there
was no disproving such conclusive reasoning as this, and
young Shannon was accordingly acquitted, while those who
advised the prosecution and drew up the indictment, were
left with nothing to console them but the very unsatisfying
reflection, that virtue is its own reward. Seriously speaking
—though the affair is hardly worth treating seriously—the
jury acted perfectly right in returning a verdict of "Not
Guilty," for the case was one which should never have been
brought before them ; and the uncontrollable laughter of the
whole court during the investigation proved that it was looked
on as quite a burlesque of justice. Equally judicious was the
learned serjeant's refusal to allow the expenses of two indict-
ments for " sueh a trumpery case ; had he acted otherwise,
and countenanced, instead of ridiculing, the proceedings, the
breed of Shannons would have multiplied with marvellous
rapidity, and the bars of our different courts of justice would
have been crowded with precocious pie-stealers.—The Sun.