The Statesman.
London, England, 1818-05-15 00:00:00

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paper money, which no country ever supported but
this, and by which this country had 'offered the
deepest imjaries--circumstances of this descsiptioseit
iris that had affected the morality of the Peeple of
England. He would mention one fact, Illustrative
of the loss sustained by small tradesmen in town',
tooovence of the practice of forgery. A tricks.
man in the parish of St. Mary.le-honne was re.
quired to pay a five pound Bank of England note,
elleged to have been received from his daughter.—
Ile resisted. The case was brought to trial in the
Mershalsea Court. The fact was, that the. charge
was founded in a mistake, proceeding from the re-
isemblknce of his daughter to Emma Connor, so no-1
torious in the annals of the crime. This had since
been discovered. The man was cast in the suit,
and condemned to pay not only 51. for the note,
but also 231. costs, losing in all 281. from the re.
bemblance of his child to an utterer of forged
notes. —[Hear, hear, hear !] —On many occasions
people would not resist such charges, from the up.
prehension of suspicion; bat that was the smallest
Inn of the evil. He would now proceed to the mote
immediate part of the subject. It was absurd to say
'thin the Bank ought to be exempt from the inter.
Terence of the Legislature ; as well might his Ma-.
jesty's Mint claim the exemption. The evil to:
the reduction of which his motion was directed, had
beau growing 20 years. The Bank had not taken,
precautions againssit (he wished not to be misunder.
stood); they had taken abundant precautions to se.
cure themselves, but not to guard the Public. The
liability of the Peblic to be deceived and plundered,
was now as great as io the year 1797. The Public,
'therefore, bad a right to enquire whether that pro.
seeded from unavoidable causes, or the carelessness
and supineness of the Bank. Enquiry was necessary
to direct our judgment in time to come on the pro-
priety or impropriety of continuing the restriction on
cash payments. It was necessary to acquit the Go.
vernors of the Bank from suspicion in the eyes-of the
community ; it was necessary, in order to examine
whether the shedding of blood might not be restrained,
and to pot a stop to tbat carnage which was a disgrace
to the country.—(//ear !)—Enquiry was material to
the lives, property, innocence, and morality of the
People. He by no means intended to impute improper
conduct to the Bank—hut lie could not suppose the
Governors exempt from the frailties of human nature,
or the habits common to men in situations like theirs
—one of the strongest of which was to be attached to
the usual routine of business, and averse to entertain.
in any new projects. From conversations he bad
held with many scientific men since the last discossiort
of the subject, be entertained much more sanguine
hopes than be had then, of the possibility of at least
mitigating (he was sorry he could not say removing)
the crime. In America there was a paper currency
to the amount of 2() Of 30 millions. She was the se-
cond country in the universe, as to extent of paper
currency, as she was in shipping and commerce ; yet
there, in none of the provinces, nor by the general
laws of the country, was forgery a capital crime.--
The consequence was, that the national and provin.
cial banks, not being protected by the terror of the
gib:;et, had been -impelled to invent, and did in.
vent, very effectual obstacles to the imitation of their
notes. But had not the Bank of England neglect.
ed every scientific ski? Ile had been lately told
by a man of science, that a boy but six months
apprentice to an engraver could imitate the Bank
of England notes, so as to deceive, not the Bank
(they took good care of that), but the body of the
People. He had heard that the formation of the
Bank of England notes required scarcely any exertion
of art.—[//ear !J—The reasoning of the Bank seemed
to be, since the crime cannot he eradicated, since it
is impossible utterly and entirely to prevent the for-
gery of notes, no step whatever ought to be taken.—
He thought differently ; be thought that the smallest
diminution of the practice would be the greatest na-
tional benefit.—( Hear, hear I)—The increase of for-
gerieX produced an increase of other crimes, for ,1
mat the nature of them to multiply one another. But
the crime of fortery not only diffused depravitisround
it, but spread its toils for those that would sever be
tempted by other crimes. Other crimes for their
execution required boldness and strength, hut this
allured to its commission women, children, old men,
and persons of a certain degree of education. It
was with surprise be would hear of any desirous of
opposing his motion, and would therefore at once
move—
' That rt Select COmmittee he appointed to enquire into the
aeons of were eternally preventing the growth of Forgeriey,
and report their übservatiotw to the House.
The motion having been put from the Chair—
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER
thought the lien. sod Learned Gentleman had not
proposed that mode of enquiry whose result would
be most satisfactory to the Rouse. The enquiry
was long, laborious, and difficult, demanding more
conStant attention, and patient assiduity, than could
be reasonably expected from a Committee of the
House; besides, much information would be neces.
nary in the course bf it, and an examination of artists
must be carried on. His object, however, in rising,
was, not to oppose the motion, bet to propose an
amendment for an Address of the House to the
Crown for the appointment of a Commission, with a
view to obtain a more complete enquiry, and a more
satisfactory result, than could be bad •in the other
way. With respect to the improvements spoken
of, he had considered the subject himself, and the
more he did so, the more difficulties presented
themselves. In every plan that he had seen, de-
fects either struck himself, or had been pointed
out to him by others: no radical remedy was to
be expected. Before be came to the proper object
of his rising, he could not forbear making a few re..
marks on the statements made by the Hon. and
Learned Mover, regarding the progress of tIMP,
crime, and he regretted that such exaggeratrid,l
pictures had been drawn of its increase. Ors
the growth and increase of the crime, he must,
beg leave to submit to the House the deductions he
had made himself. From the statements of the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman, one would
be led to suppose, that, before the suspension of cash
payments, the crime was almost unknown. But
the House would see with surprise, en referring to
the papers, that executions for the crime of forgery
had been as general in the middle of the last cautery
as at the present day. In the years 1749,- /10, and
51, the number of emotions under that head was

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nineteen in London and Middlesex; whereas, in the
last three years it was but 18. The number of con-
victions for forging and uttering Bonk•noies, tumu.
tug\ them to be forged, was 110 in the three
yesre 1811, 12, and 13. In 1815, 16, and 17, it

Wag but 88, leaving, a diminotioa in the three last
et ,2.—[Here the Right Hon. Gentlemen went
-tbioogh a variety of other details, to show that for-
gery had not Increased of late years, while coining
had.]--lie thought the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman's reasoning was extremely (*Racine',
in supposing that a relent to cash payments
would necessarily cause a diminution of forgery.--
It would be seen that the crime of forgery bad not
increased in the same proportion as other crimes
since the suspension of cash payments, while the
crime of coining had increased in a greater degree.
What bad taken place was not imputable to any

negligence or want of proper precaution on the part
of the Bank Directors. He feared that forgery was
a natural consegeence of education, combined with
craft and wickedness, and that the growth of it was
to be traced tp the extension of learning and the
'great advance of trade and commerce. ft that ;cir-
cumstance rather made it a stronger, iy
.tp isse
)
every care, and make every effort to iminish it.
Thinking that that end would be best attained by
the measure he contemplated, he would propose the
following Amendment— • .
That this House do present no humble Address, to his R_o,!
Hirano the Prince Regent, praying that his Royal Rielt.
to issue orenttea Coleisslisoinnun:er the.
tlittbirS:aralcioilwaliprioint Co
nem of pieveating the Forgery of the Notes of the Winn;
liegbao and Private Banks, liad other negotiable Securities. -
The question having been put on the origins!
motion—
Sir C. MORDAUNT thought a Select Committee
preferable to the coarse paint!d out by the Right
lion. Goodman. He was of opinion that abundance
of information might be obtained by it. He alluded
to the strong statements on the subject iti the Bir-
mingham Petition, and concluded by dechaing, that
he would most cordially support the motion:, -
Mr. BENNETT congratulated the country en the
triumph which his Hon. and Learned Friend had a
few days since achieved over the Right Hon. Gentle.
man and the Bank Directors. He begged at the same
time to state, that within the last three months as
many prosecutions had been commenced for the
Forgery of Bank.uotes as the Right lion. Gentleman
had enumerated during the period to which he had
alluded. In 1811, the number of persons indicted
was 43; in 1812 it was 67; in 1813 it was 97 ; in
1814 it was 63 ' • in 1815 it was 71 ; in 1816 it was
123; In 1817 it was 162; and for the last three
months amounted to no less .than 112.—[Hear,
bear!]—ln former times conviction was followed by
execution ; but the Bank assumed a dispensing power,
Rod withdrew the capital pert of the charge at their
own discretion. During a period of three years,2oo
persons had been induced to plead giiilty to having
forged notes in their possession, the cases of all of
whom would have been of a capital -nature at the
period when the Right Hen. Gentleman commenced
his comparison. The number of executions was,
therefore, quite a fallacious criterion' of the pre•
valence of the eritne, which he had no 'doubt, would
be mere effectually repressed by laws which would
not terrify the injured from becoming protecet ors,
and be more congenial to the humane spirit of a
civilised age. The Hon. Gentleman • here com-
mented with much severity on the conduct of the
Bank in the cases of several individuals convicted of,
or under prosecution for, this offence. The 'Oedi. I
nary of Newgate had told the Committee, of which
he(Mr. Bennett) was a member, that w hen the Sacra.
ment was about to be administered to those who were
in confinement, the persons who had been convicted
of forgery on the Bank felt so indignant against their
prosecutors, that be did not think them-in that state
of peace towards mankind that would justify him in
administering it to them. At the time of execution,
the utmost compassion was felt by the spectators for
the wretched sufferers, and the greatest indignation
against the law which bad doomed them to suffer;
hut, above all, ao indignation against the selection
which bed been made of their particular cases. Ile
felt it his duty to concur in the motion of his Hon.
and Learned Friend, and he trusted that it would
receive the support of every Member in the House.
Mr. S. THOR NTO N declared, that it was alwa)s
the practice of the Bank Directors studiously to in-
vestigate every case of Forgery, with a view to enter-
tain where lenity ought to be extended, and where
prosecution ought to be followed up. As to the in.
diction of punishment, or the grant or mercy, after
conviction, the Bank had nothing to do with sects
proceedings.
Mr. HUSKISSON supported the amendment, 'asl
the most direct and expeditions mode of attaining
the object in view.
Messrs. BENNETT and lIUSKISSON mutually,
explained.
Sir S. ROMILLY said, it was a great inducement.
with him to vote for the motion of his Hon. and.
Learned Friend, because he did not believe there.
masted any disposition on thopart of the lion. Gen.
tleaten opposite to institute any adequate enquiry..
lie could not help thinking that his Hon. Friend.
(Mr. Bennett) had not been fairly treated, as his ob-,
serrations had been made the sehject of much misre-
presentation. There was one strong objection to.
the manner in which the Bank conducted their pro-
secutioos, that pardon was held oat to the persons ac-
cused who pleaded guilty. SuCh a discretion.mest
be attended with mischievous consequences. It was
now confessed that the offence of Forgery most he
considered in a less mitigated point of view than it,
was formerly. The frequency of the commission dad
chested, in the opinion of the country, the moral
chiritier of theteihrte. The House were aware that
a number of perform either suffored the offence to be
pracilstd ,egainst thenaelves, than prosecute, when
the pnniidiment of death was the consequence. It watt
idleiisiiiik, that. under the present system people
would iidt criticise the selections made in the punish.
meet of individuals prosecuted for Forgery. How-
ever jettifiable the discretion exercised, still It woisktl
'be impossible to prevent individuals from thinking
that such discretion was In mail lustancesimproell
Or enteral: exerted. il tay.: ,"
General GASODIGN. observed, that the ' Oulk.
city Of semis to sere of reinedy wes now onivetsal
admitted. Tcptiope it ha* tilt'. Bank was kbrsi
bible, si they never evtuced'any dispositionlioi adlYpt
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the means. If they were anxious to call i►► their
notes of
.1818, they might have adopted the same
&terve; in the Master of the Mint did, when he called
Lu rhe base _safer, namely, to appoint stations where
' gold oroeld be exchanged for these notes. He
should vote for the Committee of the House rather
than • Commission.
Mr. MANNING said, he had to were the
House, that the Bank exercised. the painful duty of

ptosecolisi with the most serious consideration. As
to the selection of persons found guilty for punish-
ment, the Bank Directors never interfered. It was
not for their own interest or security, that the Bank
interposed; though the whole espence were paid oat
of the fends of the Corporation. 'rheir antiety
was to save the Public harmless. The Bank were

compelled, by the increase of the crime, to consign
the offenders to the doe coarse of the law. In 1811,

the number of persons engaged in the various means
of passing and uttering Forged Notes, amounted to
33I—in 1818, they amounted to 1,300. The Hon.
Director proceeded into a detail of other statements,
adding, with respect to what bad been alleged as to,
the detention of Forged Notes by the Bank, that,
when presented, it arose from the fact of their having
ascertained, that the word forged had beets expunged
by a chemical process, and tisi note again uttered.—
Though the note was detained, the Bank was always
-ready to give an undertaking.
. Sir piccorr contended, that though there
was cisofessedly a great increase of forgeries in the
years 1816 and 1817, there was also a correspondent
increase of offences of every kind, from many
causes, in the country. If the House of Commons
by their Committee, or the Crown by its Commis-
sion, could prevent their continuance,
__ the country
would owe them great obligations. No persons, he
was convinced, would feel the value of the service
'more than the Directors of the Bank of England.—
But from the difference of opinion that prevailed, he
must ask what coons ought the Bank to adopt ?
Either they most prosecute for forgeries or they must
not. If, as he believed it would be allowed that
forgery was an offence—then it must be prosecuted—
aod if prosecuted, from the frequency of the com-
mission, a selection either for punishment or pardon
must be made, unless it were the opinion of Ho-
Pourable Gentlemen that the Bank should hang, hang,
hang !—lf Hon. Gentlemen thought that it ought
not to constitute a capital offence--if they thought
so, why not at once move for the repeal of the law?
[Hear, hear !]—Why did they mispend their time
and discuss the conduct of the Bank Directors,
when, according to their own showing, the evil was
in the law ?
Mr. WM. SMITH thought difficulties existed at
every side of the question. He was ready to give
the Directors of the Bank credit for the best inten-
tions. Still he thought that there was one corrective
that they might have afforded, merely to give the
Peblic the knowledge of the criterion by which the
Bank Clerks were able to distinguish the genuine
Notes of the Bank.
Mr. CANNING preferred the appointment of a
Royal Commission, as the mode most likely to prove
.effectual. The proposition of the last speaker it was
impossible to hear sod not smile; for how could the
Bank afford the Public the means of ascertaining the
forged note, without assisting the parties committing
the Forgeries with means to direct their mischievous
operations in future? All that had ever yet been sag-
gested was, to render their plates or impressions ex-
tremely elaborate and difficult of imitation. •
Sir J. MACINTOSH, in reply, expressed his
satisfaction at finding it admitted upon all shies that
something should be done upon this subject. At the
same tinie, he regretted that his Hon. and Learned
Friend (Sir A. Piggott) should attempt to divert the
attention of the House to a charge which he supposed
to have been made against the Book of England.
For his own part he had made no charge against
them, nor had his lion. Friend (Mr. Bennett). It
WAS true that he had stated what to him appeared the
necessary effects of the present system, bat that was
not, properly speaking, an attack upon the Bank.
It had been said that he had exaggerated the increase i
of forgeries, and a statement had been made in order
to disprove his opinion. The plausibility of that
statement consisted in its being confined merely to
executions, without including prosecutions and com-
mitments. It was also defective in this, that it limited
the comparison to short intervals of time. He denied
that secrecy of investigation was not consistent with
a Committee of the House of Commons, or that their
operations must necessarily he very slow. On the
coattail, he thought they might be just as secret,
and far more expeditious, than a Commission. A
Commission would probably lead to a delay of six
•or seven months longer. It had been said betire,
that—" Wretches hang, that Jurymen May dine."—
A Committee might Report in a month or less, would
they prefer the Commission, which. must necessarily
be' more protracted ? The proper Commissioners
:were 'Gentlemen of that House, who might act upon
the materials afforded by scientific men. He was
convinced that au investigation by Commissioners of
the Crown would never remove the mistrusts and
jealousies of the Public. The Members of that Hoes,
would be influenced by motives, by hopes and fears
respecting theirconstituents, which could not operate
upon Commissioners appointed by the Crown. . if
the House of Commons did not maintain it firm, and-
ho would even say a proud attitude towards the.
Crown, for the protection of the People, in a caw,
which came home.to the business end bosoms of all.
men, they would alienate from themselves that se-
specs which it was• their interest to cherish. Aftele
all .he had !wird, be still remelned of opinion that et
Committee would be mere likely to gain, the ends
they had in view, and he wailles more desirous to
press it in the present inittence-, as the Directors of
the Bank had egawaeds po
.ansietz about one coarse
in preferencd o, t Shtlrer.
The lima then ilividtd-
- • . . •
For the it abridgment . 108
Fur the . . 63
•." • hfejettle • —44
When we were te-admitted to the Gallery, we
found the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER on hi•
legs, wig an Address for a Royal. Commission.--
epparsinilg,had arisen upon certain
I estenditie the eateiry to the notes of country
rs,. and miler entietted negtodible securities.
it Alse CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER'
said, that be wished the investigation to be general,