The Statesman.
London, England, 1818-03-12 00:00:00

Ti E S "ATESMAN.

served the peace of the country, and
, ' much greater es ploein%, tlli Noose was co
td Pass the Bill. with rOplit.),:til Meg it
Usanoisrable and Learned Frireirl mays the :1
net to pass, because it swearer:Lb:ohs the _
they had exceeded the powers prescribed by law. It
usened_indeed in Newspapers, that Nue
gistrates had entered and searched housesfor libels ;
but surely bis Hon. Friend could not sulipoie that
wet meant to protect them ; it *as only de-
signed as a protection to those who 'verdict houses
for treasonable papers, belonging to persons accused
of treasonable practices, and against whom. warrants
were issued. To detect such papers the Magistrates
might have overstepped the limits of the law—but
his Honourable Friend would not say that therefore
the papers ought not to be seised.—(Here Sir Samuel
Romilly intimated that Magistrates were justified by
the standing law in seizing treasonable papers.)--
Well, then, he would admit that, and what did it
prose ? only that the Bill of Indemnity went to pro-
tect•men for doing what was agreeable to the Is* of
the rand. His Honourable and Learned Friend had
dwelt at large on the case of Swendells, who, as de.
scribed in the Newspapers, was seized, and hii
house searched for libellous productions. But he
would say again that the Bill did not defend those
who searched for libels. His Honourable Friel&
had depicted in glowing colours the sufferings anlj
wrongs of that anti besought the Ming'
not to pass a measure tending to shelter bis oj.
pressors. His answer was, the Bill did not do
so. This would be seen (rum the words of the Bill,
" treason and treasonable purposes." His Honour-
able Friend had also descanted on the ambi-
guity of the word " such," contained in the Act ;
but looking at it calmly and deliberately, however
comprehensive the enactment might be considered, it
would include no such case. The case then cited
with so much effect was inapplicable ; it was not in.
eluded either in tire recital or the enactments. As he
saw his Hon. Friend still desirous to call him back to
the subject of Saindall and the papers, he would re-
peat that his Hon. and Learned Friend had mentioned
the case only to mislead the House; it had no
application to the Bill. If his treatment had been
unjust, he had a remedy open in the Courts of Lew.
The part of the Bill intended to guard Magistrates
who had acted in dispersing illegal assemblies, toad
been construed by his lion. and Learned Friend to
apply solely to fhe proceedings at Manchester; and
as the conduct of Magistrates there was justified by
the existing law, he had argued that that part was
nugatory. But did lie not see that it applied to many
other places, where Magistrates had done something
beyond the law, in the same way ?—and would he
not allow that it was their duty to shelter that useful
and worthy class of men from the .consequences of
what they bad done through the best motives, and ,
to whom was; in great measure, due the present COT.
partitively calm state of the country ? The Honour.
able Member had himself supplied a precedent in
the Acts following the Riots of 1780. The indem-
nity at that time given to Magistrates who had lau-
dably gone beyond their legal powers in suppressing
lawless temults, was a complete authority for what
was now proposed. The principle was allowed by
his lion. Ftiend; the degree of danger requiring iaale
tification was only matter, of opinion. The remain-
ing object of the Bill referred to the protection of
witnesses. Ili, lion. Friend had talked of going on
from precedent to precedent—that this would be a pre-
cedent, in future times, for a larger indemnity than
had yet been contemplated; but a little after he ad.
iiiitted that the present did not go so far as that of 1801.
The object of both was not to screen Ministers from
the consequences of illegal acts, but to obviate the
inconvenience to the country of making public the
information that had been given.. Oliver had been
repeatedly alluded to in the debves on this subject.
Ilis lioneoratile and Learned Friend said he could
not possibly distinguish his case from that of Vaughan,
and represented all the treason. to have sprung from
his instigation. This, however, was negatived by
the Report of the first Committee, agreed to by ,the
late Mr. Ponsonby, which, stating the existence of a
conspiracy in February, showed that, the conspiracy
existed before Oliver left London. Did he mean to
accuse Ministers of having employed that mail not
to spy and pry into the secrets of the disaffected, but
to produce the plot?—(//cur, hear! from Sir S.
&oaks, and the Opposition.)—Again, with respect
to Braudretti and his associates, it had been objected,
that Ministers had information beforehand of what
was hatching, and did not apprehend before treason
was committed, but suffered the actors to pass on to
give effect to the representation; whereas the only
two persons that could give evidence of the breaking
out of the plot there, stated, that such was the s)steni
of terror, they bad been deterred from giving any in-
fornietion ; so that not only the Ministry, but even
the Magistrates in the neighbourhood, were in the
dark as to the plot which exploded on the 9th of June.
But suppose these men had given information, ond
no the strength of this Brandreth and his party had
been previously arrested, what would be said by the
other side of the House? . You have deprived peace-
able,
iudastrinus men of their liberty on the tes•
lemony of two obscure fellows, perhaps professed
spies ',Their story is absurd—it is impossible to
believe it. The Petition of the man put by the
other side in the front of the battle, Francis Ntiard,
showed, that many of those arrested had the heart
to entertain arid head to contrive most mischievous
projects. It was fair to infer, tbatif many of those
apprehended had been 'uttered to go .at large,
more esplotions would have taken ~p1.14:11- The
.question should not be considered abstractedly, but
in reference to existing ciecumstances.. Priests 41-
convenience must yield to public geod.,:btinister
could opt be called. on to defend themselves without
disclosing information that ought to be concealed.—
No illegal acts had been done by Ministers. A dis-
closure of ail the transactions would folly justify
them—and the acts done with a view to crush trea-
son before the Suspension would fall within the prin-
ciple of the Bill as much as those done under it.—
The principle of the Bill was founded on this. The
circumstances of the country were !loch as to justify
the entrustiug Ministers with tstraordivary powers.--
those powers. had been used successfully ; and now
Ministers called upon the Hoes, not to compel them
to give up the persons and disclose the, evidence by
which they were enabled to defeat the designs of the
! disaffected; and to protect the Magistrates rut has,

It'd a

ing,„withliat aNn important end in glee,. little intr.
1"1,40d flit Is*: Ile trosteil that iat jollOc• to. 111.
111ajesty!s g rnment and the Mi4iotriitt of the
.1
e Pay* the Bill. ): e •
:RANG' BUItDRIT otkierisatrtiliat 'the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, itt hii representation

Suspension, and now to the present R!$J, bad taken
it for granted that this representation was perfectly
Correct in all its part'. No sue now statement, bed
been made by him, 'upon which it was possible to
build a new argument, or which could afford-a Mlle
view of the subject... Indeed, the Hpn. and
‘Learned
Gentleman appeared to hint to have mistaken the
, question before the House, and to have supposed
I that the chief point for consideration was, whether
i
cases of apprehension on charges of libel coned be
brought within the scope of 4ke present.,meginte:-
Now be believed that the Howie FS ii(i sue„ Learned
Gentleman who had introduced this sulkier-1..00
mentioned it merely as an instauce..of the. danger
of incrusting:extraordinary powers to.Matt,lAlrollilos
—(llear, hear ! front .Sir Samuct
.nooti(l.y )741
had been said op the other side, [bat the coo Intrti
cularly referred to depeeded,entitlit IV NA'. *Meer
authority ; but he .had receited ,persnual commeeica.
lion, which satiafi:d him that the ciscemstatiFetof it
bad been truly represented. The reasoning
.of 14'1(0.
twistable and Learned Gent. (the Solicitor-Genecel)
welit.to this—that it was necessary iia eittendindem.
silty to all who lied acted under the Suspetisioe,test At
should be necessary to disclose enlaces of inforin,.
lion. It wig the first time,-he believed, that each Z.
pretest had been advanced as a reason for rlfesity;
justice to persons who bad been. aggrietedi 'lid be
was surprised to hear such, a prihciole.ntsiuteinesi in
any assembly of fair cud upright men:. The principle
meaot nothing leas than this—that so individual
might be dragged from his home, punished and feu.
fined, without ever knowing who his accusers were,
or what the information was which hadjed le. his
being thus treated. It reminded him of a &NOM
custom which had once existed under.the AristOcrali..
cal and Despotic Government of Venipec wheat there
was a receptacle called " the Lion's Mouth," into
. k
wl.„ows. any Informer might cast any charge, and it
was the practice of the. Government to act against
the accused upon such information. The provisions.
of this Bill were quite conformable to the principle
of such a system, against which neither courage nor
innocence could defend themselves. It was avowed
that the information in question was intended to be
kept secret for ever ; so that those .whose houses had
beets searched were never to learn, whether private
malice had beets gratified, or public outrage committed
upon them and their property, on pretence of seising
arms or papers. They were to be deprived for ever
of the opportunity of submitting this enquiry to a
Jury of their country. Another point of eqsal in•
portance, and forming an objection of equal magni-
tude to the Bill, was the encouragement which it held
out to the practice of embodiiiig a race of Spies in
the service of Government, who, in order to per.
petuate their own employment, would not fail to pre-
fer abundance of charges against individuals. He had
no doubt whatever, lb t Oliver had excited all the
t.
disturbances which h lien. A witness could be
brought to prose, et I sr of that House, that
Oliver, ye the day of the opening of the last Session
of Parliament, was in the Park, and that he excited
the tumultuous proceedings spirts( the person of the
Prince Regent. This did lint furnish any proof
that he was• at that time connected with the Go.
vernment ; but he was afterwards connected with
them, and it was certainly the interist or. Mi-
nisters at that time to divert . the public atten-
tion from their conduct. His belief was, that tbe
distutbatices were elicited purposely by Ministers,i
and that they were directed solely egslust wooer
who wished to obtain a Reform in that House. it
was absurd to suppose digit the Reformer!' could bevy
sanctioned or encouraged any breach of „the peace;
it was important to them that the public esseqeillity
should be preserved ; but if Gentlemen phould ray
that the Reformers had actually disturbed tile peace
of the country, then lie would ask, for ;that, per.,
pose ? Gui bono ? Who was to
.hisve the benefit
of such conduct? It appeared to
.him tinkt
,no per.'
son could derive any advantage from it but Abe Mi.
nisteis themselves; and whip he considered thai•
the present Admioistratien were the 'remnant of
the Administration who formerly practised a de-
lusion on the country, by pretending that great
and serious daegers esieted, he entail tome to no
other conclusion than that they were the -persons
who had, instigated all the acts of riot and treason
(if they were treason) which had heron committed
.----
With respect to the 13 stein of ttpies and Informers. whirl' bad wt'
disgusted the country. why shoold a Bill of , ndemnity be passed
to ptevent the -owes of informant,' which Ministers had de-
ri scd from being made public? It woods he.mach better that ,
those persons who had softie I should have some legal redress,'
and, as toe I i onourahle Member for I:ertf ratshire had said' that
they 01110111 receive damages out sit the Secret ;service laud,
rather than hr precluded tram all remedy. Aremostioos had
beet, laid against them, under which. they hall soteredmost an-
jowl., nod, at last, they were 41 i.c barged , without having been
brought ID, trial. Ministers, hr contended, had violated the
King's Corountion Oath; they luul i!ettied and refused justice e
they hod-broken the laws of the land, and trampled ott the liber-
ties Of the People. When they naked for those powers which
1 were granted to them, they said that they might be safely
trusted, because they should WI Ilildr, a heavy responsibility. Is
sk as a must e. i raord inory argument, therefofe, to come forward
at present and say, that because they had been inverted with
great powers, they ought to have a Bill of ladeasaity. To him it
appeared that the argument. bould be theolher way ; for, in pro-
portion as the powers were great, so ought to be the account is
'be tendered of tie manner in which they had been exercised.—
The whole of these trail actions seemed tu. Itioi to be of a
piece :-tbe abuse of the 'puttees. and the original dellcntion
of them, were equally Illegal and no o stitutitotal. Tweet
some of the statements had been contraftleted. It bad not been
"shown.that many had not been ;slimed in s. limey coutineasent,
and others loaded with heavy iron., and even chained to.'
gether. Could one conceive any sort of treatment mare Wittman ?.
Was it possible to imagine any thing more dreadful, than that
persons in this situation, chained together, should be obliged to
hear all the Infirmities of human oat' re ? A tyrant of old had
ventured to practise bitch rrstelt ies, hot, in modern times, they
had been deemed beyond all Monett endurance. The very con-
templation of such cruel indignities was enough to dris c the mind
to despair. The !louse bad beard, that a man of the name cf Iti ley,
who was commit tedto prison on a charge of I reason.% as so dread-
fully afflicted by this mode of treatment (hot berme the lime came
when be was to be tried, he committed an act of suicide.- (Bear !)
These cruelties were wicontrary to the old law of Eueland as they
were to the mild weep's of the ("hristio.? religios. lieremember-
I
ed that my Lord Coke hod de.ro i bed the damsta tde mint dawned pro.
ceedings of Ile-dodge of Bell :-•• Firs he pouishrth, and then
he heareth ;" and set. persons vthohad sr Ir•rell Me possisbenvoi
of imprisonment for months, hod tern al terwurds discharged
without trial; and then came Ministers to a-k for a Bill of In-
detrinity, only for them.els es, lint tar Jullers and all others,
under a pretence of !mho; arrested persons oat suspicion of tree
sou.-(hear, hear, hear !) -The Iluuse,had heard of the cruel-
Wes w bleb had' been practhed it,' the ease of Sn intim, who'll'
hoo.e was entered for the purpo-e of ..artst.itlf for mans and teen
sucatle impels; but &either Jaws nor par:, were !Am.!. -