The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-01-14 00:00:00

EMIGRATION FROM THIS PORT

The MAYOR presented to the council the annual return
transmitted by Lieutenant Henry of emigrants from this
port. The total number of emigrants from this port in 18-10
was 40,259, in 1841, 48,829—Incraase, 8,570.

The council, therefore, by applying the surplus of the
borough fund, or any portion thereof, to the support of
schools to be conducted on the exclusive system above al-
luded to, will be violating both the recognised principle of
good government and the legal enactment of the legislature.

The memorialists beg further to submit to the council that
a plan of public gratuitous education for Ireland, somewhat
similar to the plan now adopted. by them for Liverpool, hat
already been abandoned by the government of this country.
in consequence of its acknowledged impracticability ; that,
so far as the question of public gratuitous education is con-
sidered, the state of Liverpool is analogous to that of Ireland,
and that therefore it would be highly injudicious to persist
in pursuing the adopted plan, which past experience has
shown to be impracticable.
The memorialists conceive that the arguments and reasons
herein by them alleged, afford the council sufficient grounds
for a reconsideration of their decision. They earnestly pray
that such reconsideration may take place, and they fervently
hope that it will lead the council to rescind the resolution
which has been pasted, and to adopt some plan of a more
liberal and efficient character, which, whilst it will afford the
means of obtaining a literary education to all, will interfere
with the religious principles of none.
I Should the council refuse to entertain this petition, in that
—in- I C

se the memorialists cannot but consider that their just and
legal rights have been violated. And your memorialistsr&c.
Signed on behalf of the said meeting,

ROET. ROSKELL, Uhairman

Mr. EARLE thought it would be well if the Education
Committee retired for a few minutes, and gave, the council a
translation of the Latin contained in the memorial. (A laugh.)

Mr. GLADSTONE said he had no objection to the proposi-
tion, provided Mr. Earle accompanied them. (Great laugh-

BIREETT said, that although it was the bounden duty
of the council to receive every petition that was respectfully
worded, there was a circumstance connected with the present
one which would justify them in refusing it altogether; and
that Was, because the parties came before the council under
ZIPI assumed name. (Hear, hear.) He would not call it a
false name, least it might be offensive. It purported to have
emanated from the Catholics, and it called the clergy of the
Romish Church " the Catholic clergy." He considered that
himself and those who were members of the established
church of the land were Catholics, and that the Catholic
clergy consisted of the Rev. Rector Brooks, the Rev. Rector
Campbell, and the other learned and pious ministers of the
Church of England. (Hear.) He considered those to be the
o-ly Catholic clergy of the town, and the other parties to be
clergymen or priests of a foreign dominant power. (Hear.)
Mr. EARLE.—Oh !
Mr. BIREETT contended that this was the strictly legal
interpretation of their name. They had as much right to
come forward and call themselves the Earl of Derby, or
the Earl of Stamford and Warrington, as to call themselves
the " Catholic" clergy of Liverpool. (Hear.)
Mr. SHAND agreed in opinion with Mr. Birkett, and
thought they had assumed an incorrect name. He thought
they should have come forward as the Roman Catholic clergy
and inhabitants of Liverpool, particularly in a town where
the Anglican Catholic church existed. They ought properly
to have come under their proper denomination.
Mr. JOHN SM ITII.--It is understood !
Mr. SHAND thought it but just and right that the denomi-
nation of the parties should be correctly stated.
Mr. EVANS thought the two gentlemen who had spoken
last knew very little of the etiquette of the world. At Dub-
lin Castle the catholic bishops were received as bishops. If
the premier of England were addressing any one of them by
letter, would he not designate them as clergymen? One
gentleman was constantly getting up and giving lectures, or
rather sermons, and at length he would occupy the place of
chaplain to the council—(a laugh)—but, in his mind. he be-
longed to a remote period when they were legislating against
witches and wizards. (Continued laughter.)
Mr. EARLE believed the gentlemen were not aware that
the 'catholic clergy could go into the church of England
without undergoing any ceremony or ordination.
Mr. ATKIN rose for the purpose of saying that the term
" catholic " did not appear to be understood. The catholics
believing theirs to be the true church, had as much right to
use it as had the protestants; but was there any valid reason
in all this for refusing the petition ? He trusted the time of
the council would not be occupied in discussing the merits
of the protestant religion, or of an established religion in the
land, arid that they would not denounce institutions which
were calculated to do so much good as the Mechanics' Insti-
tution. He thought the tradesmen of the town, after their
hard day's labour, should be encouraged to go to an institu-
tion where they could learn mechanical drawing and the liv-
ing languages, which were of such inestimable value to the
tradesmen of England. The last time he wits in France, he
met a Liverpool man conducting a steam-boat on the Seine,
who was unable to speak a word of French.
Tice Mayon said that Mr. Aikin was going back to a sub-
ject already disposed of.
Mr. SANDS said, he deeply regretted that the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy bad taken the step they had on Sunday last, in
counselling the people, from the pulpits of chapels, not to send
their children to the corporation schools. (Hear.) It ap-
neared extraordinary to him that they should allow the chil-
dren of Catholic parents to go to other schools in the town
where the Scriptures were taught. He had already stated in
the council, that in one school one-third of the children
belonged to Roman Catholic parents.
Mr. MELLoa.—What school is that?
Mr. SANDS said, he would be happy to tell the gentleman
if he asked him the question privately. (" Oh, oh !" from
the radicals.) He would give his reason for not answering
it publicly. (Hear, hear.) He feared that if he were to do
so the Roman Catholic clergy would adopt the same means
of depriving the children of the benefits of the education
they now enjoyed that they had been doing on Sunday last
in reference to the corporation schools. He would, however,
give the name in private; but he could not sit down without
saying again that he deeply deplored the interference of the
Roman Catholic priesthood.
Mr. EARLE thought it rather curious to hear gentlemen
talking of the influence of the pulpit, when they must be
aware that the pulpit had been used on a former occasion to
prevent the Protestant children from frequenting the schools.
In suppott of this assertion, Mr. Earle referred to a conver-
sation he had had with a female, iu which she told him that
a sermon preached by the minister of the church in Glou-
cester-street consisted of a denunciation of the schools.
Mr. HARBOR]) said it was necessary to put the council in
possession of certain facts which came under his notice on
Monday last, which would bear on the present memorial, and
show the impropriety there would be in receiving it. (Hear.)
He bad admitted several children between the hours of nine
and ten o'clock on that morning. Two twins were brought
in by their mother, a widow, who trusted that the children
would be admitted ; and before he could assure her that they
would, she said she herself was a catholic, or connected with
catholics, and that she would suffer to be turned into the
street by her friends rather than keep the children away.
She said her husband when living was a protestant, that he
would have brought the children up in his own faith, and
that she would be as faithful to him in death as she had been
during his life. She added that she had received many
threats, but that, in despite of all, she begged the children
might be brought up as protestants. They were received.
(Hear, hear.) Another instance of a similar nature bad also
occurred. When three of the committee were leaving the
school they met a Roman catholic woman crying outside the
door. One of the gentlemen asked her what was the matter?
She said two of her children had been at school during the
day, bul she was afraid that they would be turned out. She
was then told that the children would be quite safe, and that
a circular was about to be printed contradicting the false
statements which were afloat as to the intentions of the com-
mittee, and encouraging the children of all classes to come
to the schools. After being again assured that her children
would never be turned out, she said she would as soon they
were brought up protestants as catholics. (Hear.) It ap-
peared, however, that in the course of the afternoon the Ro-
man catholic priests absolutely went into school and threatened
the children in various ways, and so frightened them that
twenty or thirty never returned. It further appeared that
the said priests had taken other liberties, for which, if he
had been present, he would have given them in charge of the
police. (Hear.) He believed the chairman of the committee
would put the council in possession of certain facts which
would show that the Roman catholic priests had taken other
unwarrantable liberties in the schools at an early hour of the
day. (Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT felt surprised at the squeamishness some of
the gentlemen present had evinced. They betrayed a fear
there was something superior in popery which would endan-
ger the faith of the Protestant children, if they were allowed
to mix together in the same building. As a member of the
Church of England, he protested against such a fear. He
believed that the Protestant faith was based on sounder
principles. He had often hearth it argued, both in the coun-
cil and elsewhere, that the ground on which the Romish
religion was maintained was the iguorancein which the priest-
hood kept the people, and that the former were opposed to
all education among the laity ; but, good God ! was it not
most extraordinary that the gentlemen on the opposite side
should be so much alarmed at any attempt that was made to
educate the Catholics.
The MAirors. said that the speaker seemed to have misun-
derstood Mr. Harbord altogether.
Mr. BRIGHT said he was not alluding to Mr. Harbord in
particular; but, to others of the gentlemen opposite. It
struck him as extraordinary that there should be any fear or
alarm evinced that, by the educating of the Catholics, idola-
try would be disseminated. If there were any error in the
Romish church, the best plan that could be adopted, would
be to enlighten the minds of the children, in order that they
might see what that error was ; but if they kept them in
darkness, they would undoubtedly remain ignorant of it for
ever.
Mr. JORDAN said he had been connected with St. Patrick's
School for many years, and that there was no religion what-
ever taught the children in that instiitution. They had
therefore no differences ; they simply told the parents, in the
first instance, to take the children to whatever places of
worship they frequented themselves. There had never been
any differences of religion between the children so as to
create discord. A register of crime was kept, and since the
formation of the school only six of the pupils had been pub-
licly punished at the Police-office, although there were be-
tween 300 and 400 children in the establishment.
Mr. HARBORD asked whether the school in question had
not become bankrupt?
Mr. JORDAN did not reply.
Mr. YATES said that as a most violent and unwarrantable
attack had been made upon the catholic clergy, he hoped he
should be permitted to make some observations in reply to
it. One gentleman said he would commit the catholic cler-
gymen to the charge of the police; but in his (Mr. Yates's)
opinion, those clergymen, in acting the part they bad acted,
had done nothing but their duty. He thought they had done
well to come forward without a moment's delay, because
there had been no delay, but on the contrary, a breathless
haste, upon the part of the Education Committee, in carry-
ing into effect the resolutions of the former council. The
council had met on Wednesday, and upon the Friday follow-
ing the committee assembled and passed orders which had
led to the ejectment of 900 catholic children. (" No, no,"
from the conservatives.) On the same day they dismissed
two of the masters; and he begged of the council to observe
that upon the same day Mr. Hodgson declared he had re-
spectable testimoinals in his possession from Mr. Cloud and
Mr. Jones, whom he recommended as the successors to those
masters. Was not this breathless haste ? On the next day
they met again, and dismissed more of the masters and mis-
tresses. There was no occasion to have been in so great a
hurry to destroy a system which had produced incalculable
advantages, and in which the spirit of Christ appeared in its
loveliest form. He would, if he thought there was any
chance, entreat the council to reconsider the opinion given
upon the former occasion.
Mr. MOLYNEUX said he was very unwilling to rise, either
on the present occasion, or on any other ; but it was abso-
lately necessary that the committee should have met as soon
as possible to carry out the determinations of the former
council. The schools were to'open on Monday, and on the
day after the meeting of the council it was necessary that the
notices should be issued for the meeting of the committee,
because a number of rules had to be printed in the interim,
for distribution among the children and their parents. Ac-
cordingly the committee met on Friday, and proceeded to
frame the rules to be given to the parents. After this had
been done they called in the two masters, and, so far from
dismissing them, be was not aware that they had even been
summoned to attend : they were there, however, and the in-
structions were given to them. They were told that, from
the alterations made in the principle of the management of
the schools, it would be necessary for them to alter the sys-
tem. The master of the North School said he could not
carry the intentions of the committee into effect ; therefore
he declined doing so : the master of the South School also
declined. They both decided that they could not, and would
not, read a prayer in the schools. The master of the North
School scarcely read a prayer in the school; but he occa-
sionally got one of the monitors to read the Lord's prayer.
That was one grand objection that they made ; and as to the
reading of the Bible, they declined it altogether. They each

decided that they would not carry the resolutions of the

council into effect, and both tendered their resignations at
nice. It was requested that they would give their answers
d,e following day, and in the meantime instructions were
:even to Mr. to get: the rules printed, so that. they
might re-consider their resignations, and, if they had chosen;
they might have altered their opinions. So far for the " great
haste" in dismissing these masters, which was the principal
point he had risen to answer. The following day the entire
committee assembled to receive these resignations in writing;
and as these masters had resigned, the. committee thought it
necessary to summon all the other masters and mistresses,
to ascertain•if they were willing to carry out the views of the
council. They were asked the question individually ; they
were each asked whether they had read the rules, and whe-
ther they would carry them out. Those who said they would
not, of course resigned, and those who would, were retained.
But there had not been, to this day, a single person turned
off, neither master nor mistress; norhad a single apprentice
been spoken to whether they would stay or not; nor a.single
child, except by the Roman Catholic priests. Greatly did he
regret to have to mention them, for he never interfered with
them nor their religion ; but the circumstances he was about
to state ought to he mentioned. He had not, however, any.
formal report of them at present, and had derived his infor-
mation from hearsay. It had been told to him yesterday, by
the mistress of the North School, that the Roman Catholic
priest had been there, and attacked the mistress of the infant
school very fiercely, and required her to turn out all the
Roman Catholic children ; and he (Mr. Molyneux) was much
pleased with the very proper manner in which she replied
to him. She declined doing so. After that they went into
the girls' room, and there the priest became quite excited.
He required the mistress to, muster immediately the Rotnad
Catholic children, dismiss them, and turn them out of the
school at once. This demand she: declined. He then ad-
dressed the children very fiercely,' and .called out those who
were Roman Catholics;- and next-be demanded from the
mistress the 'names 'of all the children_ of Roman Catholic
parentS, and where they resided. This she refused to give
to anybody, as 'it was not her duty, and: he had behaved in a
very rude and improper manner.- He (Mr.: Molyneux) was
sorry to mention these circumstances ; but he was called
upon to do to by the remarks which had been made. The
education committee had never turned off either master, mis-
tress, apprentice; or scholar;' in' fact, they had done every-
thing they could to keep the children by kind feeling, and
by circulating a little address among their parents, that they
might know how anxious they were to have their children in
the corporation schools. From what he had heard, there
would have been a great many Roman Catholics in the
schools even now, if it had not been for the decided interfer.
ence of the Roman Catholic priests, not only from the altar
gut in the schools.

Mr. Eauix moved that the petition be referred to the
Education Committee for their consideration and report.
Mr. BOLTON seconded the proposition. _ _

Mr. ISAAC HoLwes said that he had been in the first in-
stance anxious for the adoption of some measure which would
have the effect of keeping the Roman catholics in the schools ;
but if any circumstances could have convinced him that he
was in error, the memorial which had been presented, coupled
with the placard on the walls and the sermon delivered in one
of the chapels on Sunday last, were more than sufficient for
the purpose. Nothing would satisfy the priests but the
teaching of the Roman catholic catechism in the schools. He
believed that the resolutions to which the council had come
upon the former day in relation to the schools were the best
they could have adopted• (Hear, hear.) He moved as an
amendment that the memorial do lie on the table.
After a few observations from Mr. Priestley and M
ker, the latter of whom seconded the amendment,
The council divided, when there appeared,—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority for the amendment

The follo•ring gentlemen voted in the division :
For the Amendment—Messrs. Shaw, Shand, 1. Holmes,
R. Houghton, Copeland, Edwards, Blundell. Sands, Aspinall,
Toulmin, James Lawrence, Robinson, Cooper, Wood, Bir-
kett, Gladstone, Kilshaw, Parker, A. Smith, jun.. Harbord,
Houghton, Griffith, Chiltcin, Bramley-Moore, Molyneux,
and the Mayor.

Against if—Messrs. Thornhill, Preston, H. Holmes, Mel-
lor, J. Holmes, Bolton, Aikin, Bright, Priestley, Yates, H.
Lawrence, Procter, Jordan, Platt, Mather, Holt, Bailey,
Evans, Barclay, Earle; and Turner.
Mr. AIKIN here called upon Mr. Harbord to withdraw
certain expressions he was reported to have used upon the
last day in reference to Mrs. Rathbone, when speaking of
the books in the schools.

Mr. H ARBORD made the amende is very handsome terms,
and the subject dropped.

THE DIVISIONS

Mr. BOLTON, in pursuance of notice to that effect, sub-
mitted the following motion :—" That the election of mayor
and members of committees, together with the appointments
to offices, and all other matters submitted to the council for
consideration, shall be determined and decided upon by a
numerical majority of the whole of the members present when
such appointment or matter is put to the vote ; and if, on any
question, there shall be more than two persons or matters
put to the vote, the voting on such question shall not be
final until a majority of the whole a the members present
shall decide thereon."
Mr. HENRY HOLMES seconded the motion, which was
carried unanimously.

PAVING AND SEWERAGE COMMISSIONERS

Mr. EARI,E, in pursuance of notice, submitted the follow-
ing motion :—" That it be an instruction to the Finance
Committee to obtain the insertion of a clause in the proposed
paving and sewerage bill for enabling the majority of the
commissioners to transfer the powers of the commissioners
to the council, if at any time hereafter it shall be deemed
by such majority expedient ; or that it be ascertained by the
committee that the law as now existing gives such power to
the majority of the commissioners."
Mr. EVAN s seconded the motion.

Mr. John Holmes, Mr. Aspinall,

Mr. Birkett, and Mr,

Gladstone opposed it ; after which
Al r. EARLE briefly replied.

The council divided, when there appeared—
For the motion....
Against it 27
The motion was consequently lost. The following gentle-
men voted in the division :
For the motion— Messrs. Thornhill, Preston, Mellor,
Aikin, Bright, Priestley, Yates, Jordan, Platt, Mather,
Holt, Bulley, Evans, Barclay, and Earle.
Against it—Messrs. Shaw, Shand, I. Holmes, Copeland,
Edwards, H. Holmes, J. Holmes, Bolton, Aspinall, J. Law-
rence, Robinson, Cooper, H. Lawrence, Wood, Birkett,
Gladstone, Procter, Rigby, Kilshaw, Parker, J. Smith,
Harbord, Griffith, Chilton, Bramley-Moore, Molyneux, and
the Mayor.
This having disposed of all the business on the paper, the
council separated.