The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-02-09 00:00:00

vs
,i.

•ra air

:•11

borne their distresses witho-t complain', and who wee
corwirtmors for their lov.bv, might obtain suck alien
Cols to their silaltiost as wotshi tend to relieve them from
their present emharrammen,.. —(Hear, hear.)—He cots-
Vatted by sworibethat the petition be Drought up.
Mr. ILAWLEY thong:it it his duty to recommend
the prayer of the petitioners to the most serious atten-
tion of the House. lie conceived that it was entitled
mirth's* coasideratlon, nut merely from the neabet
and respectability of the petitioners, though that itself
would be a fair grolnd, bat front the importance of
the statements it c.mtaltte‘l—. atetnents which involved
the most serious interests of the Empire •—(Hear.)--
It was far from his intention to give any contradiction
to what had been stated by his Majesty's Minister.
Upon the improvements which hail taken place in
rtanv parts of our trade ; but if he were to rest his opi•
ttiun npan what he knew of the state of the trade of
Birmingham, it was nut such as would bear out those
statements which had given Is m so much satisfaction.

Mr. LITTLETON observes!, that if similar inquiries
to those made in Birmingham had been instituted in
the south-west of the county of Sutford, the sauce re
sults would bare been fount.--(Herr, hear.)--iie
believed, thosgb the petitioners only fabled at it,
that if a committee should h • appointed, it would be
found that a great part of the distress oomplaised of
would be fogad to have resnited from what had been.
tie would admit, very properly done by his Majesty's
tioveramaut trial respect to the metallic carroacy.and
we un,luessesod the Hon. Member) the lissitatirn of
lanes from the kiosks. He had. however, every reason to
hope that conflaence would so IJU he restored in this respect.
Ihe petitioners, it appeared, did not attribute the dis-
treea of which they complained to the cessation of the
legman(' for the articles in their trade, at the termina-
tion of the war; but when he considered the very great
extent to which the trade. in articles of military hirni-
haul been carried on in Birmingham, he could not
hut conclude that it would require many years to fill op
the chasm rinsed by the cessation of snch a demand.
The petitioners admitted that the committee of foreign
mete was a boon ; hut that that alone would not be
effectual. Some improvements should be effected in
their house trade. He believed that there was sin article
of domestic manufacture of which there was so large a
• onsumption as our hardware. Looking
.at the great
I,,aies which had been sustained by the agriculturists. he
11.0 sin difficultly in discovering one cause of the depres-
cion of the iron manufactures. lie considered it, there-
fore, of importance that soutethiug should be done to
a list the agrienlttirists, as that would no doubt effect a
material improvement in the business of the manufactu-
rer,. The firmer dill not now get more for two bushels
that he slid some time bark for one of corn ; and he was
paying iu taxes the price of two bushels where be-
fore the price of one would have been sufficient. This
was to support the payment of Isis interest with the fund-
liukietP, who, as he conceived, paid by no means in the
same proportion. He was aware that it valid he very
unpopular to propose the imposition of any new tax :
inuieril, the proposition would be idle at present, for the
country was not able to bear it; but it was his opinion,
that if a tax, not an income, but bearing equally on
ftsstsled and landed property, were levied, it would be a
great relief to the farmer, as well as to the nsannfactn-
rer. He gave this, not as considering that it would be
the wish of the petitioners, but as his own individual
suggestion.

Mr, CritiPEN, haring been requested to support
the Flyer of this petition, could Out saw-It to pass
without a few observations. The iron trade Wall a
twit important branch of our manufactures; and from
the skill and capital engaged in it, it was, he believed,
Its likely than most others to he interfered with by
t,•r..ign competition ; therefore, when he heard rom• '
'lands of the depression under which they who were
engaged in that trade laboured, he thought it a proof
ut the great distress in whielt the country was involv-
rd. Some kind of cheering hope haul bergs held out,
that an improvement had taken place in some branches.
It was believed that the increase in our cotton-mann-
tactureA w.is a proof of this growing improvement. lf,
htiweyer, that were to he looked upon as an improve-
vent, the workmen would, as on other occasions,
line turned round and &mended an increase of
w tzes ; but surely that hail not been the case. Ile
Lisikeil upon that increase as the result of a specula-
from whila no general benefit to the country
‘i.tothl be derived. It was his fear that government
1,3,1 tint tak.ai the pains to make themselves acquainted
uith the real state of the rountry. lie believed that
great relict might be given to trade, sad he was mar-
Ihised that any member should be of opinioa that the
pr.-sp'rity of commerce and agricillttwe would not
be benefited by the same means. Tile remedy which he
thought would be an effectual one was this—a decrease !
of the interest to the fontlholtler. He said this was!
the only remedy, and the present was the time when
the questimi could be fairly met. The cheapness of
toll was not u1411.r present eircomstanres a blessing
to the country, fir it lessened the value of landed pro-
perty. He called then upon the Noble Lord, nut fur
a committee chic' would surgest a partial moieties
but a moray which should be found generally
clrectael. He grotintred this upon the resluctioa
which rash payon.nts would make in the value 4
landed property. lint he had also astotlior ground,
enor:utnas amount of the poor-rates. Why, he
would ask, when the value of !anti was thus swallowed
J). taxation and poor.rates, might not the landholder
as well give up his property altogether ?—(Hear.)
Feder such circumstances he asked, had not the
Laded propriet •r a ri ht to call upon the govnament
tio that noief which ..you1:1 arise from an equallization
of the intrden ? What was the real property of the
kiliftiont ? Mr. Uitt used to to ,k upon it as $6,000.00401.
a year, lint lie might now say it was not worth more
tb2e 20,000,000/. At that time the pour-rates were
lady 3,000,900/., they were now 0,1100,0001. Was
't this. then, a case which called for some legisia•
t.Cr interference?—{Hear, bear,)—He had considered
his iiuty to call the attention of the house to this'
l9Tortant select. If the Noble Lord (lListlereagh)
1041 rove that he was in error in any of the state-
leett: be had made, he would how, and be happy to
tii.d cleat tl:e case Was not so bad : but again he asked
whelkr the intereat of the fnnholder, which was now
twice the amount of t:.e value of tae land, shoithl not
he eallrd to bear a fair pruportiou of the public bur-
`l' °', •
, and whether the v the (the lamnioliters) hail not
4. right tc.expect a cutinuitte; to inquire into the snh-
When he heard an Hon. Member propose al
propeety-tax, he wished to that that the Cilia i' was
it' .4 "tilltiatt to hear • ne, brit he asked the gentfensen-!
".Issued property u seas their present situatius
nut' "'act to rentv. Ile would mate how he himself
1"" rieenwintasseed in this reapers lie 'had bre* fat
of years engaged in agricultural pursuits.
4:1
!te 'tun& 14v might say of himself, that he had

:.

never been comitidered a hard landlord: hut, rust with-
.4anding, he had almost all his Cum-lands offered to
br given np to him. When very marry of leis tenants
askod for a relltirtionof not less than 25 per cent, in
the amount of their rents, he thought such an amount
as that unreasonable, but he toll them to wait till
holy next, and that then he would consent to let the
lands he valued, and that they might take them for
what they should he worth. Dill not this circnon-
stlnce prove the state in which I ondlords were placed,
and the danger there was of the f.ir:neis of the country
beitigobliged to throw back the farms on their hands I
Prom such a state it might be seen how well able
the country was to meet the prop ;shim of a pro-
perty tax.

- kr. LITTLETON begged to explain that he had
not reconintended a property tax.
Mr. CURWEN proceeded.—lf not, his observa-
tions were only rendered the stronger by the admitted
inapplicability of a property tax, and hr could there-
fore, with greater force, call upon the Noble Lord to
say, whether, as one of his colleagoes had said, things
would mend by mere enolurattee, and that " sufficient
fur the day was the evil thereof."--(!dear.)—lle wont
ask whether things were not obviously getting worse
every day ?—(Hear, hear !)—I f the Noble Lord would
go fairly into the inquiry, he would get his (Mr.
Carwen's) cordial support. In the dreadful Situation
of the country, it was the duty of every member, in-
mitst neimetty of all potty feelings, to support any !liens-
her, and to co-operate in uny tueasit:es, where any
prospect of relief was presented.—(llear!) --Some
members were afraid of Parliatortatary Itetorm—some
of Catholic Bolancipx:ion t he was afraid only of the
period when the great majority of the people would
have nothing to do, and theretUre nothing to fear.—
(Hear !)—What the most desperate only could roil.
template in other cirearostaltcvs, moat moderate
would look to, if things went on a at present, as the
only resource. As ass agrien!thrist he asked nothing
but what vottlil be founded sits thi: principle—that
what was done for agriculture shoahl Isimetit the whole
country.—(Bear!)—What he il.ired was not a par-
: tial relief. but such attention to the general situation
of the (mmunity as should once ot.tre restore the
Ecountry to that happy ntate whirls existed before the
late ruinous wars.—(Near!)--:le had heard that great
statestnan, Mr. Fox, (root year to year, warn the HODS,
4 the pernicious tetoicticy of their course, and pre-
dict the ruin which- be (Mr. Carwen) feared was now
At hand.—{!dear!)

Air. W. PEEL said he believed that the trade of Bir-
mingham was in a most drplorraVe situation. KEA that
a gnat number who lamd formerly lived in prosperity
were 'suable to live without tote ail of parochial relief.
—(Hear.)
Mr. V. ROBINSON said, that however animas the
supporters of the petiron might feel, he hoped the
House would par.lon him for no: entering at length into
the subjects intrthloterol on this nerasiots. He f-lt the
more satisfied that it would heimproper for him to enter
at length into the olkcotssion, when he fistful that one'
of the mesas proposed by the petitioners, as calculated
to revive the trade and mannttetnres of tlw coontrv.
Wall the repeal of a tite.iNaire (tior rramtoption of the 1:4;d8
Pavusests) which heal peen paoril only. two years ago.l
Th.at measure lor had been IcaAgree.4o,le Malt kat shoal
'he load 11%4-now alVer.var,l4. rpoto the follest enquiry
and considera t i tttt he had beco•ne a mover to the
stir.', anti he ron1:1 now sec no reano6;6 6.r ifety in ulna-
rating it.—(llear, hear.)—The re,soi!rrett which had
heen alluded to by the lion. Cieillenria opposite was
one of fearful consi.lrration.—(clear. hear.)—lt might
be palatable to many. hut it would he pregnont with
the utmost danger, forcibly, by an act of legislation, to
reduce the rate of interrst .611 the National Debt.—
(Hear, Irear.)—Sort an emin,lictit uti2tt give truiporarc
relict*, hunt it would create more evil ?loan could be rat.
rotated. When they thought of the infinite evil% of
breaking faith with the !intone creditor--(bear,)—they
cool.' not view stick a prvi..i.t bait is itli Ow utmost pos-
sible alartn.—(llea:.)-11 the Ho., tili..r bron::111
farwar6l any motion tor l'etiliont.ot, without
doing injury to Mini. C1.1.44V4. h.. (Mr. It.) Was most
willing to give it his bre:* 3,ft.;‘,joil.

Mr. A. HAKIM; concurred entirely in the observa-
tions of the Bight Ilea. lientleman respecting the
sacred nature of puidie fait!). lie cool,' see no hones's-
or honour in u mea..ttre that would (..tint not a frond
on the public creditor as the means of reliel.—(llear,
hear.)—He did not impute to the lion Alember for
Cumberland any intention, on dn. r-tieetion, of Fro-
posing such a measure. Butt nut only would such a
measure be nwiust, hut it nits perfectly clear that it
would not, after all, produce the betietit contemplated.
—(Hear, curl, etnergow one principle
of property coldd not be tatielt..d n itholit rutting every
kind of property in hazard ; and therefore, if the
Hon. Member for Cumberland could cirri- slid) a
rtseasnre into effect, hr would ask hint what conld then
he the velde of the parchment of his deeds i—(licar,
hear.)—lf, then, the point of honour were renounce:t,l
the measure would be resisted by the meaner au I oar-,
rower principles of interest.
Mr. CURWEN begged pardon for interrnpting his
Hos. Friend, but he had quire mistaken He had I
never suggested that public faith should be violated;
if the country could, by possibility, keep faith with
public credit.—(Bear, hear.)
Mr. DAMN° proceeded. An Honourable member
of the Honse (Mr. Ricardo) who hail paid great at-
tention to this snhject. lia.l proposed a rameral sarri-
fice of property a-. a means of relief t ) the rottn:r.
Such projects he regarded as visionary, berause, how -
seer plausible they might appear in theory, they
seemed to him utterly impraetieable.—(ilear, hear,
hear.)—He knew no other inability to prevent Lord-
ing faith with the creditor h•it the debtor Lavine paid
all he had.--(Hear, heir, hear.)--!le had been so".i-
cited to attend to this petition ; but at the s tote
time, he considered the Petition as bringing under
the consisletation of the llonse the ge:tz•ral distress of
the minter, more than the panic:liar ilist.ess of the
town of Birmingham. The P.tition, he was sorry to
ear, was applicable to the general state of the c.uu :-
try; and certainly no part of the aonsumnity was
more distressed than those engaged in agricalturc.—
(Hear, lienr.)--1 his he knew fro:n v..refoil oheerva.
lion, sad his 'lbsen ations were cwiti• meet by lii. men
experience. It was Angular, that u r ii•;:re now in
our sixth year of prate, without nue ..f the grra: in-
ter.-sts being in a tented state, a: d Wit),Clut any
thing like prosperity, except in the +i,,•4.411 fr..at the
Throne.—(Hear.)—flow was it Ilia; thittes west us
this state ill the sixth •.‘ NIP of reace The etfeuts of the
trisit4itia. from Wilt tn peace had snlisided yet every
branch of trade. 34.1 litanilf4rtilre, and a zri-
ettlture was c.irrirsi uii At .6 1..115. a t•I moie
tell 1441 re thi state of tli;nis r.,:ald