The Statesman.
London, England, 1819-12-01 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

eel decree of decorum, enforce it, when it was con-
Awed that it troaldtintolve such weighty matters of
diesesien. after only three days' notice, sad rail
gee the Hesse to decide epos a question which went
to permanent alteration in the Constitution of
the ceentry ?
Lord CASTLEREAGH replid, he sew no n
for elterieg the course he had adopted ; the sooner
the second reading leek place the better, because it
veldt) afford an opportunity for the country to be
egiesieleti with the object of the measure, and re.
were the misconception, with which the speech of the
Illeneerable Member bad elaborately and studiously
sorreended it.
Mr. UROUGHAM.—If the Noble Lord thrived
he had elaborately and *tediously misrepresented the
salve of the measere. he supposed the same *lke.
times could net be made to the documents laid spun
thimble, and now in the hands of Members. Upon
••• arementoee a qaestion, be would ewe, to the
Noble Lord whether, in common decency, the coin.
^try eeeht not to have an opportunity of expressing
its opinion at least, that the Members should have
time to contiglet it ; and, added the Hon. Geotlensan,
U the Noble L,rd refeses to linen to my suggestion,
I will appeal to you, Sir (addressing himself to the
Spiker), and to the House, whether a qeestion Deed
to be precipitately proceeded on, which threatens to
destroy the inalienable rights of the people, by one
maser* introduced by his Mejesq's Ministers.
Lord FOLKESTONE, we understood to say, as
the goestien would occupy much important discus.
ties, sad as manifold and complicated circumstances
were conoected with it, he hoped the Noble Lind
weeld postpone the second reeding for a short time;
the people eight to Myelin opportunity of tiptoes-
Sag their *Ordure', mod the geestien ought to be
ikerovegbly indersteed by the country and by the
House.
The Hon. G. BENNETT said, that as the gui-
don ought to have ample investigation, be should to-
morrow mere for a Call of the House.

INTERNAL STATE OF THE COUNTRY.
Lord ALTHORP, in rising pursuant to entice,
mid, the queries, important of itself, had been
moaned doubly se by the determination of the Noble
Lrd. &toothier' might be said if the country con.
444 in his Majesty's Ministers; bet even were it
so, he 'mild set adopt such measures from cool-
• deuce in say elm In reference to the transactions at
Manchester, be thought they should he divided into
toe parts, the first to comprise the Inansactioes pre.
elites to the 16th of August, the other those that
took place sobsageeet to that day. It appeared
free the statements before the House that the Ma.
gistrsies at Manchester had anticipated danger.—
He could hardly conceive any state of things solid-
est to jellify those measures he had heard proposed
of coercion and unmitigated sevesity.—[fleer!]—
la the first place, however, before such measures
mold be adopted, he thought the House should be
pet le possession of some information with regard to
she actual state of Scotland. Unless they wore cc-
isolated with the causes that led to such a change In
*bat quarter, enlists accurately itiformed of all the
eircomstances attending their various Meetings in that
pert of the Empire, it would he impossible to proceed
Flo legislate span them. It would be acting in the dark,
It would be plug forward with a precipitancy es us-
paralleled as it was evidently unjustifiable. More Intel.
llgesce would be eacessery from Lancashire as to the
etate of that meaty previously to the 16th of Aug. ; in
short, complete information should be given of the ac.
teal condition of all those districts said to bedisturbed,
before palliatives sire administered, or severe sod
seercive remedies applied by way of cure. The
statements of the Magistrates should not induce them
So alter or to abrogate the relating laws ; nor should
the infatuation derived from Mr. Illy, in which
mousy things reqeired explanation, be made the basis
of harsh and onuses! tee Ministers might
bate, and on doubt had, certain information whir .
was not before the House. The Ministers saw Mr.
Illy, had painful conversation with him, cud are
so far enabled to glee that information—nay, the
seeessery explanation of his statelnents,witbo at which
the Howse could not boatel, adopt those measures
proposed by the Noble Lord. The Magistrates said,
that the Riot Al t vas road after some of the leaders
wore taken. and the Meeting then dispersed. The
Noble hard (Castlereagh) gave rather a different
'union of the story; not that ha (Lord Althorp)
Shrew the least doebt,on the statement made by that
Noble Lord ; un the contrary, be believed he (1.-rril
Castlereagh) only spoke what he thought to he the
truth ; bet when such a variance etisied, enquiry
was necessary, and that enquiry could best take place
before a Committee of the ileum The Noble Lord
stated, the Magistrates, or on. of them, to hive been
trampled on; Mr. !ley makes so tritliiioll of any
such fact; sod was it conceivable that such an cc.
torrent, cook' have taken place, and yet ao antic, to
be taken of it by one of the most active Magic.
Oates, who figured en that occasion? The teadingl
of the Riot Act was a principal affair In the proceed.
legs at Manchester. Some persons maintained it
was sus reedothers denied it. The information of the
Magistrates was not satisfactory on the point, and
therefore the oral examioatioa of the Magistrates be-
came absolutely necessary. Another matter ought to
be explained, of which be himself had some know-
ledge, which the public ought not to be satisfied
to take from him, which ought to come from Mi-
lliliters themselves, and come to the Home sealed
with the stamp of astbority, wisely, es to the com-
plaint made my many, that had Sir John Byng re-
mained at Manchester, nothing like what happened
wooed have probably occurred. That Gallant Officer
was censored also by many for not remaining at the
pester danger, if any danger were rppreheoded. But
what said Sir John Byng ? That he was et Man.
Chester on the 14th of August—that he offered to
remain there; to which the Magistrates replied, his
preseuee would not be necessary : and that he further
added on his leasing town, be would made within
the truth of an uprise. The Magistrates on the 14th
of Aegust bed acted as if they did not contemplate
say danger, or contemplating the scenes that did
occur, refused the co-operation of that officer, who
might bore prevented the shedding of human blood.
11es eat enquiry seeesnry on :kis gronud alone, if
there veto no other on which it was imperatively de.
wastled ? If blame were imputable to any party or
l'stlies, it certainly was not imputable to Sir John
ll; ng. A, the conduct of that Gallant Officar was at

all called in question, some eaplanstion was due to
him ,nd to the country, and that upon the authority
of the Government, who should be pawned to knew
the weal facts as they occurred. A large propor-
tion of the evidence contained in the papers before
the :loose was anonymous, and required to be sap-
ported from authority. It was not that evidence on
which the (louse should met with that precipitate se-
verity which was called for by the Noble Lord (Cos.
tleresgh). It farther appeared, that may of the
persons who bad given evidence acted as spies; and
after all that bad transpired on a recent ocotillos, its
which the system of espionage was ■otorioealy
adopted by Gemmel's', how could they doubt,
bet that similar stratagems were adopted at
Manchester, and that for the very porpose of
obtaining those mestere, now insisted Oa as ne-
cessary to preserve the public peace, and pat down
seditious Meetings ? If the Magistrates acted
correctly, it they were huseasot of the charges pre-
ferred against them, enquiry would rescue them from
eblegey, and re-establish them in that reputation,
whioh they had some bow or other forfeited since the
affair of the 16th of Aegest. So far, he considered
solicient reasons were adulated to entitle him to call
for a Committee. One objectiess was started to its
appointment; Namely, the delay it would predate in
the approval or adopt's,n of the measures proposed
last night : and a wood objection was also started,
that any enquiry 'mild be so injury to the Magi,-
tram. As to delay, he would am use the argasecn.
few ad Actinism to the Noble Lord (Castierragq,
for he bed delayed proposieg his measures, or call-
ing the Parliament together, esti, each a time was
solved to 'lam, as mold eel make the delay
be (Lord Althorp) wished a matter of iecirevesis-
nice, much less of Wary, to the Magistrates or toe
country. It was beside me reties to justify magi
limy on the pert of the Hoes,, that the Noble Leal
'coveted all possible divetch to the adoption aide
peeposeti measures. Wish regard to two .1 the pee.
posed measures, es to training end drilling fee SIM%
he sae so obj.-ction to their immediately doing Mee.
thing. 'Fromm* by night was likely to do consider.
able mischief, and could not be attended with any
possible advantage. Then as to the other measure,
the alteration in the right of , nothing could
be effected in that until the neat Asuses. With re-
gard to the other three measures, the misers of arms,
the prevention of seditioes Meetings, sad resttimieas
on the Press, be thought delay ausolutely requisite,
in order that the noose should be telly itiformed as
to the circumstances calling epos them for their

adoption. Nothing had spit:sett in the eidetic, be-
fore them to show that the eccurnalrion of arms had
been so great throughout the coootty as to render
enquiry into the fact at all injuitues. Thisty or
forty pikes might have been discovered in a certain
jeerer, let such • fact mode nothing in a question of
such vast importance as the right of depriving Elfish.
men of the use of arms. With regard to any further
meetings, he apprehended bat little danger from there.
Hitherto they dispersed at the orders of the Magi,. I
trees; and she was there sow to lead the noose
to suppose the people who might attend them, would
kee obedient to their commands, useless, indeed,
IN elleSeal impressioe, that his Majesty's Govern.
I sent were determined to close thee eats against!
eves; petition and reneetratice for enquiry ? The
same observations applied to the whiten press :1
r wherever offending parties were brought Woe the
tribunals of she ceentry, and their offence was
proved, the Julies vindicated the laws, and speedy
punishment followed the transgressors. Precipitate
measures were seldom well received, they were sel-
dom well digested, and legislation should not be so
carried on, as if by wholesale. The cottony was not
to be deprived of that satisfaction which enquiry
would milord them, Merely because Mr. Nottis us
Mr. Hay were parties upon whom considersuie cen-
sure hod been cast. if those Gentlemen were
innocent, nothing injurious could come out ; it
othrswise, nothing could come out but what
the public had a jest right to demand. Ile had heard
the measures proposed by the Noble Lord opPsite
with astonishment end regret. Ile did not think them
called for by the present can hien of the country ;
and he was only the sorry tnat he could not impels
mere forcih!y the necessity of referring the Papers
aid on the table to a Committee of the Stowe. Ile
bad used Ifs best eta aaaaaa s to .how the necessity
for such so enquiry; and be had combated the only
feasible silij.etion likely to he urged against its ap-
pointment; and hating donee ter us the performance
of his duty, he concluded by moving—" That the
Pape. laid on the table by Lord Viscount Castle-
reagh, relative to the affairs at Manchester, be le-
(erred to a S.lect Committee of Entpilry."
Colonel DAVIES, in seconding the motion, said.
perhaps, according to the weal custom, he should
have waited until some Gentleman on the other side
of the House had delivered his sentiments os the
subject. But when so inoment.ius • question was
before them, as the direct insist." of • coostitistional
right, he could not persuade himself to remain silent.
The Ministers had shut their eyes to the calamities et
the people, and closed their ears to the mites re-
monstrance which had from lima to time been urged
against the latish waste of the public spotty. Taus
and burdens made the people cry out ; sad sow it sp.
peered they snootily to be apposed by the bay one and
the sword. la truth, every part of the conduct of the
Government only served to point to the dreadful fact,
that they wished to bee • military despotism sop-
plant and destroy the laws. They had wantonly shut
their eyes to those transactions of which they wow
se bitterly complain, and yet were new invoking pro-
tection against those dangers which they themselves had
been mainly instrumental in producing. Ills heart
sickened at the calamities which be saw shied, at
the misery that marked the once goerishing people
of these kingdoms. There was something radically
wrong in the system by whisk they were governed,
or all the evils with which they were menaced could
never have arisen, or reached their present alarming
height-The condition of England at this moment was
compered to that of France at the plied of the Rees-
lotion; bet nothing was mere enlonoded than such a
Comparison. The condition of Franco was such at
that period, that the Resolute, was hailed as the
dawning of freedom ; and what, he would ask, was
Dow more dreaded in England, sod easy properly
dreaded, than the slightest approach to such • state of
things? The patience of the people should not be
limbed too far: Human endurance had its limit, and

beyond that it should not be urged, or the cense.
essences might be more ctlamitoes !hen mint' 11'0.
Gaittempo contemplated. If treason, or sedition. nr
blasphemy existed, they mold be pat dawn by other
means then new laws of severity and coercion, then
by bayonets, unfortunately so much resorted to in
later times. After a few farther observations the
Hon. Member concluded by seconding the motion of
his Noble Friend (Lord Althnrp).
Mr. B. BATHURST opposed the motion.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY supported it.
Mr. I. IVELLESLF.Y opposed the call for Par-
liamentary enquiry. The Howe could nut but see
that no proposition was less likely to terminate in
any beneficial resell than that of rendering that
Noose, composed of so many Mindsets, and incapable
of etersioing witnesses on oath, a Court for the
exercise of any thing resembling judicial enquiry.—;
No place could be so well adapted for that species of •
enquiry, in his mind, as Courts of Lew of adequste
jurisdiction, where the witnesses give their testimony,'
end the Jery their verdict, open oath. He bad riser'
with diffidence to eddies the House, and was always
but too Conscious of his inability to address the Hann .
with any degree of satisfaction to himself; but he'
could assure the Haus, that he most sincerely felt
that there was no circumstance which could tend so
directly to keep up the agitation and alarm which
new existed throughout the country, as a display of
soy hesitation on the part of the Ilnesette adopt some !
well.deined and salutary restrictive measures, as its
eaten' result would be to convince the public that
Parliament was sot even es yet aware of the spirit j
which was abroad, or the &sprees designs of the
disaffected.
Lord lawns, Mr. Douglas Kinnaird, and awns
thee Member, rose to speak at the seem moment.
The Speaker and the House decided in favour of
heaths the new Member.
Mr. KINNAIRD then addressed the Hoes. Ile
said he felt himself the more strongly Induced to
avail himself that evening of the piivi:ege enjoyed by
a new Member its making his first address to the
Hoes, as he was &roughly convinced that after
Ithat eight it might be of very little consequence in.
deed wise addressed diem as to the rights and liberties
lof a people which, should these Bills pass, could
no
longer be considered free. He deeply lamented
that the Address voted by the House la answer
to the Speech from the Throne had not condescended
to sake any snake of the charge made in that
Speech easiest the people of England, as tainted
with blasphemy and seditien ; the best compliment,
certainly, the Hoes could have paid to the Speech
of
that illustrious individual would have boas, a
pledge given by its snswer to take the subject of this
charge into its most serious consideration, sad eta.
mine it most minutely ; and a recommendation to the
House to that effect would have well become the
Noble Lorl acting as the Minister of the Kieft. Ile
had viewed this subject perhaps with more alarm than
any one, for obvious reasons, which were not likely
to he decreased by any thing he bad as yet heard from
say Member in that Hesse. The principal of these
reasons was, that the House bad consented to take
the word of the Misisler of the Crown without in-
vestigating the Papers laid before the Hews., which,
he would pledge himself to prove, in themselves dis-
proved and falsified the sssations end charges used*
egoist his Majesty's subjects. The gravamen of
these odious assertions was the sweeping charge
against the mass of the people of this country, as bee
I log tainted with the blasphemous sod seditious spirit,
a charge of sn heinous a nature, that he treated the
House would have been, end she country still *Gold
be, 'wailing to give it credence. H., for one, would
never come to any inch conclusion until the House
should have consented to enter into the most sitisfec.
tory investiAation, and the charge should be substan-
tially proved. It was true the people were at present
suffering the most Severe distress. Distress begot dis-
content. This was not extraordinary ; but that dis.
content should ',stoutly, as it had been urged, beget
impiety aid sedition, required very strong advocates
indeed before he could consent to sub an inference.
Thar discontent hail been engendered through a coo.
section that they were subjected to enemies tatailen
and misrule. Though it were admitted such were the
sentiments very generally entertained of oar present
mode of Goan omens, it could not thence be Inferred,
that the people entertained a design to overthrow all
orders of twirl'', anti subvert the Constitution. It
was a charge of treason to God and their King to
accuse this oar fellowssehjetts of a deliberate intro
!inn to murder all the men of property, and pr
themselves of all she wealth of their victims. Of
this disposition, it had been said sufficient proofs
had been exhibited by the conduct of some with
abuse he ems particularly connected, as a coantrys
man, in some parts of Scotland. Ile defied the Noble
Lord to prove any such disposition existed there. If
any such could be proved, what else would be the
duty of every man *silk or eminence but le draw
his sword from its scabbard, sod, at the head of his
tenantry, oppose the threatened danger ? Bel the very
fast of the Magistrates' permitting their wives,children,
sad property to remain, notwithstanding the alarm
said to have been created, disproved the truth of their
own statements. It appesred that Lord Derby bed
represented to Government, that in consequence of
the disaffection prevalent, there had been a resists.
ties entered Into to raise a led, of Yeomanry,
auseentine to 1,000 men. This communication bore
date the 16th of July, 1819, and nntwithttandisig all
their alleged I , the same Noble Lord was obliged
',confess, in a letter on the Secretary of State, dated
'the 18th of August following, that a sufficient num.
ber of Gentlemen had not yet put down their
stamps to enable him to appoint officer, to one
battalion cries of hear, hear!]—
Ile lamented that the Hesse, on se b infortnrtinn,
partly anonymous as respected pikes awl other
weapons, should, on a former night, have come In
decision on this important topic, es if it had been a
party question, and suffered the Address to be carilei
in its original mete as it were through personal pigs,.
If such were the resells of discussicn amongst me, of
lanno•rable minds, might it oat b. (silly concluded,
that the lower orders, being excited by warm end im-
passioned statements anti addresses es them Meetings,
might, by possibility, have felt the necessity of coali-
tion from the pressor, of distress, without the II 'use,
as impartial jades, being culled upon formally to de-
nounce their objects as treasonable? Hence, too, it
might Got betee MU t0..117,..c0-11, nett :!.t 111-gs.