The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-04-25 00:00:00

Tnr STAMSMAN,

.eireele-
co's...inmost.; anacouliTnot gfre Tull iirittnticdie. Ile woutd beg leave to reed to the Home a passage his Croatstt In a mariner accordant to his own feel.
../..,21eis alleglenee to -soy Sorekeigns. s After *ll ;frorita publication which sometime since appeared in ins, *lid dared to think in religious matters for him-
,.,. had passed--after the esperienco of the ages that Ireland, :and to which the name of D'aigetiati was ; self. Ili would ask the Honourable* Gentlemen
!,a,l one by, the Catholics of leelaud stilt set forth affixed, Patrick Daigenan, ' but cerraisily nut the., on the opposite Bench, who had distinguished them-
a claim to all the privileges of our C,oustitution-= name of the Right lion. and Learned Doctor, for : selves in the same profession as himself„ would
They wished to be made eligible in the eyes lallamplilet contained sentiments diametrically op. ' they have aspired at the Bar, had they been
11111
law, to be Commanders in Chief, or Members 0 ‘
(Tilt° to those which the Right Hon. amd Learned . conscious of never being able to arise beyond
Parliament; because, as they new are, we are tOld, ' Doctor was now in the habit of promulgating.-- !a certain height' prescribed by law ? ‘Yliere
tee,- consider thernseleesin a slate of slavery—in a [The Hon. Member then read a passage from a then would have been the Hales, the Holts, and the
irate of degradation. [Mar, hear I] But the advise pamphlet, in which it OaS allowed, that if tee Ca- i Soinersis, the immortal ornaments of their profes-
cstes of the Catholics said nothing about their slavery thotics gave such security to the Gevernment as they. fession, had they been Catholics ? They would have
sand deg:elitism to their Priests: [Marl The I were now understood to offer, they would he soli- been found stationed at a certain height in their sta.
eirt, however, could not be hidden—so far as the i tied to the removal of the disqualifications which they dies selling out words, while other men, possessed
rreesthood was concerned, the Catholic Laity was in . sought for.] He would, in the name of the Irish of less favourable natural endowments, would have
. state of the most abject slavery and degradation.— : Catholics, exclaim against the violation of an early ; been rising resplendently above them. He was mech
n the miserablernisereassts who had been from time I friendship which had subsisted ; he would be under- surprised in hearing the concluding senteuce from the
thee elected Popes, the Catholics had invariably' steed as only animadserting en it as feeling with the lion. Gentleman who had spoken last from the
emitted without plaint or moan. Agaiest tee doe i Irish Catholic. 'With him all faith had been broken; benches on the opposite side, because, frouethecom-
enion of those miserable miscreants, the world had *—[flear, hear!,]—and it now remained to be seen , plesion of his speech uneWthe very conclusion, ho
peer heard any complaints about slavery and deers-; if it was possible to recorerthe ground we had lost.: was led to eipect a more favourable vote to the pre-
teflon; bat when debarred from the enjoyment of i Mr. LESLIE IsO4TER contended, that the Ca- sent motion. All his quotations hadappeared against
r'me few privileges in a Protestant Government and tholleism of Ireland was different from that of other him, and be had applied them ill a manner which
Country, they petitioned- for emanzipation• They countries. The lion. Gentleman commented at some seemed tnthrenten no hostility to the motion. From
might petition, but to the greeter part of the nett- 'length, on the intolerant hehaeiour of the CatheLc a contemplation of the celebrated work of the Bi-
eoners 'the restrictions were merely ideal. There Parliament of JameA the S'eond during that Mo- shop of Meet, against the Protestants, he perceived,
had always been danger from Irish Catholics, but the 'larch's short and tumultuous stay in Ireland. They that the Catholics of the present day had features of
present state of the Roman Catholic religion inallerliegisiatee an Act whereby they took from the Pro. a most mild end benienant lettere, iu conearison !
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that greater than ever. But it seems that a. neve.; tettants their Act of Settlement conceded to them in with the Romish believer of the good Bishop's ,
argument was now resorted to, which was titithin.se a former reign, thereby destroying the surety of in-- times. Now, the speech of the Honourable Gen-!
los than an argument of pure intimation.- [nod] .11eritancedescendiag to tie it children. Hinny for tleman opposite, had mainly tended to rake up..
—They were told, if the ehrinsi werenot granted, ?the Protestant interest, the overthrow en the banks the crimes of other genetations against an un- I
Cut separation of some sort or other would be the ,of the Borne restored theta once more to their privi• happy people of the present day, believing, per_
ieeriteble result. Such was the argument that was loges and to their peace. Such had been t,e coedust haps, that by stirring up amongst time Pictestatits
now dwelt on, but he should consider that Govern- 'of the Catholics wizen they represented the people, a sad remembrance of their ancient cempl .itits, .
rent unworthy to hold its power, which could suf- : and we had no see ey now but their sentiments con- their judgments would assume a bias a d. n per- .
f.r itself to be swayed by intimidation. But if eman- ' tinned the same. We lad received no concessions tiality sot very favourable to a nation of c ncilistiou
c;pelion were given the Catholics, could any believe from Instead, anti were desired to make them to her. and brotherlon (I. Unless he had the belief that the
thet they would be conciliated; no, the priests must The experiment they demanded of the Protestants relaeion of such unhappy transactions would influence
be satisfied, or it was in vain to do any thing. Give was dangerous, especially at a time when they up- : the judgment of the House, to what p rpose eke
ties British Catholics what was now asked, and a peered %seeing to take all from those they applied to oould he quote the calamities which :he Pro eerints ,
farther sacrifice would be immediately required.— without conceding them any thing in return. If had suffered? The Anabaptists- of the presets . day
Bet see the effect of acceding to their claims' There they woetri resign the dominion of a foreigner over were a sect as pure as the gene ality of mel:gious
woeld be a Catholic party in that House; and they their minds—if they would shake the chains of hi-' sects, but would it be proper then to stir up the ill-
right be sum that such party would be pretty strong, gotry from around their necks; and enter into a cor- beral minded against them by relating all the bloody
since it was already seen what effect the Irish Catho- , dial co-aperation with their Protestant brethren, then : enormities of John of Lisle. They were called to
lies had on some of the Members of that House.— . was the time for conceding towards them and not till . decide upon the peculiar doctrires of the Catholics of
Those Froteetant Gentlemen who were favourable to thee. Ile concluded by strongly giving his dissent the present day, when the bloody daggers of the
the Catholic cause—Members who enjoyed extensive from the motion. I Church of old would not be cast by an illiberal hand
hereditary wealth and honours—MeMbers who were I Mr. GRATTAN said, from the expressive eye into the scale. But the Hofi. Gent. on the opposite
truckled to their Catholic constituents—might be ; which the Hon. Gentleman had cast towards him, in side refused to inform them what the present Catholic ,
•,-,cared, that so s:reir as itoman Catholics were qua- a particular part of his speech, he was led to suppose 'tenets were, though he appeared once on . the very
Tried to tale
.seats in that House, they no longer that -the Hon. Gentleman believed he had quoted an verge of divulging them, till at the conclusion of his .
would be the representatives. They might continue opinion of his (Mr. G.) correctly, he could only in- speech, he shut up ail hopes of future information on
to truckle; het they NI o,:td be shut out from all hope form t: e Hon. Gentleman that it was a total misre- , the subject. He would reply to the Hon. Gent.'s ob. ,
creceitinuing their seats—there would be Catholic presentation. ' - nervations on the dominion which the priests he pre-
:embers. Let him sec the Catholic religion put on I Mr. SIIAW, of D oblin, said, he had formerly dis- ' mimed held. over the minds of the people, that the
sireh a footing n,i to be completely free from foreign ' puted the propriety se conceding to the Catholic disabilities and severe penalties inflicted upon them,'
ilemence, then he shruld he very happy to reconsidr ' claims ; bat now, upon mature deliberation, he had ' caused to seek for consolation in the bosom of their
the euestioe--hut not till then. Let him learn, that , become more favourable toe-ards the measure. Con- ! religion. They were made to plane their confidence
the Irish Catholics abjured the supremacy of the templating the Catholics as forming a strong body in ' in saints and martyrs by the cruel laws legislated
Pope. t am he would coesent to tee Catholics coming the Bsi;isii eme're, he was willing to hearken to their against them. The Protestants alone gave She priests
to their ear—but not till :lien. But they must pause grievances, and for that purpose was desirous of go- the ascendancy over the minds of their flocks, and
on another grim 1 ne—to see the ,-;.eet of the next ; ing into the proposed Committee. Respecting the . would they then impute the mischief occasioned by ;
election to the Papal chair. Then they would see i Dublin petition, he had not seen it till within these , their severity to the people themselves? The man who
the opinion of the Irish Catholic Cierigy, whether few days, but he could assure the Right lion. Gen.. indulged the free exercise of his reason, would
they would consider themsblves absoeved from all al- tleman on the opposite Bench, that upon examine- easily know that the Papal Supremacy had scarce-'
leeiatice to the Pope, ie consequence of the iv-indult: , tiou ho had found the signatures of many of.the most ly any preponderance iii 'the political scale.--
non bent-. by Bonaparte. Before they could justly respectable mercantile gentlemen in that city annexed The King of Prussia, Frederick the Third, a mo-
make such claims, the Irish Cetholias must shake off to it. His judgment might be erroneous, but his anx- . narch possessing very few religions scruples, permit-
their yoke, or have a Pep of their own. Let them ious wish was, to give tranquillity to Ireland, under • ted Silesia to retain her Catholic
.Universities, and
have a Pope of their.owte if they pleased—let them , the influence of which he would vote for the motion. : admitted her Officers to be Generals in his service,
keep him in rcat splendour, IT they pleased—and' Colonel DILLON said, he represented a county ;:yet it was never-known that he had cause to repent
let them station him at Ballyshatinon, or any where j where the whole of his constituents were Protest- of his tolerance. Ile cherished the people, and the
else they pleased.—[tareghter.] —But some proof . ants, possessing a hereditary disinclination-towards . Union became perfect. Circumstances were at pre-
they must give, that they Are entirely free from all' the Catholics, yet so fur were they influenced by the i sent favourable to the Catholic claim!.. Their Pro-
foreign influence, before he could consent to take in- ' propriety of their fellow-countrymen's claims, that; testant brethren made the cause mutual, and we
to coesideration the claims of the Irieh Roman Ca- ; they'had not only relaxed from their acceittomed se-' heard no longer from the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
(holiese I verity of demeanour, but had actually drawn up a i posite, that scruples were entertained towards the
Mr. BROUGHAM, in rising for the purpose of Petition, requesting a concession of those claims on motion from the highest quarter, and there were even
Feld) ing to an Hon. and Learned Baronet (Air W. 1 the part of the Government. This Petition they hopes, that eke Noble Lord, who believed in the un-
Scott), felt muck anxiety, when he remembered that committed to his hands, and which he presented to . fitness of the time for conceding on a former occa.
he was folio% ing the eloquent opener of the discus.' the Prince Regent. . ! sion, would give a favourable vote under the present
shah (Mr.G.), who had said all that man could say iu I Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, from the time : auspicious circumstances. ' Ceder all thoSe happy
fa veer of the motion.. lie hid-heaid the two most drat 'he had become possessed of a seat in I'arlia- I influences, he hoped a pleasant termination to the
tealons opposereWr. Duigenan and Sir W. Scott) of anent, he had always silently voted in favour of the measure.
the Catholic reuse, linitiliid in vaifirroked forany ' Catholic claims, because he reverenced the minds of I Mr. FULLER.—c" It is as extraordinary a
thing-like solid opeoeltectus Declamation on visionary the persons whonnititained the propriety of conce- 'speech as ever I heard. Unless, as 'tis rumoured,
&sneers, and unjust limbic-Arne against ihe'Catto. S ding to our countrymen's claims, and refrained from i that ho is retained by the Dissenters, he took the
lies, form d the burden of all -they had, said. The'. speaking, bemuse he had nothing remarkable to en- test oath like the rest of us—arid to say as he has
iesieuetion thrown ouf against the Catholics—that : force. But he had now come fully prepared to die. ' done !" •
uhruth..) got possession of political power they would' play his opinions, and the 'motives which actuated ! Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, that the assertion
net sr np there, but ironld immediately proceed to the ' him in the rote which he was prepared to give. He of his being retained for the Dissenters was unfound-
eserthrow of the Protestant Ohnrch—evas unjust atid : did this, because be was conscious that no person ed. Let the Hon. Gentleman be comforted, for he
engem-se:le in the extreme. And this isisinuatiors could bestow a vote favourable to the present mo- was educated strictly according to the Established
ten, sine founded on an attooymnos two-penny ' tion, but who would have his conduct traduced in a Church, amid never set his foot in a Dissenting Chapel,
Phamehlet that had been somewhere picked tip by the most uncandid manner. Ile was justifeed in assert- even from curiosity.
Learned. Civilian. In reflitatine of teat insinuation ing this, from the scrutiny in the Morning Papers, : Mr. FULLER.—" Well, then, I compliment the
he wou!ti ref,er to the records of Parliament—to the in one of which was mentioned, that a certain per- Hon. Gentleman on the extraordinary feelings he has
Ststies. Batik:, where wauid ha fc
...4 oaths that son, in a vote he dad given, had renounced his reli- got."—[Order! from the Chair.)
wen 110:i taken by 'Le t': t! By an oath • gion. 'Of himself, he would say, for perhaps he Mr. ‘VM. SMITH said, he was one of the few
6'y :I..inrail all Itost:!a notions towards the Pre- was the person meant, that the intolerance of the persons admitted within the walls of the House of
testrlll C:croh, with the view of establishing Roman Catholics a century and a half ago had made Commons, who acknowledged his .constant atten-
their (mil r,ligion. !::rch an oath was arbni- : his forefathers martyrs to their belief as Protestaids dance at a Dissenting Chapel ; but let the Hon. Gen-
siistered to every Citkolic in fact, yet was such i—harl driven them froni their native land ; but he,, tleman be comforted, there was nothing in the oath
an ies;neetion thrown out steeliest them.— their descendant, was not willing to become a parse- :to prevent a Dissenter from being a Member of Par-
Het oaths etV3 were not sufficient to dernoustrate . cutor himself, because through his ancestors he had . liament, though he could not be a Justice of Peace
that the Cethreics had not so deeply rooted a hatred suffered prosecution., Having thus mentioned his or an Officer of Excise.--He conceived that he
of out (Thuroh as to induce them to conspire at its motives, he would address himself to the proper sub- : might, 'notwithstanding what was held by some
"el-throe : for, it was sail, if tl!ly are true, "con- ject. The simple question before them had beett.en- ' Gentlemen in that House, argue this as a question
stientious," Catliolies they must aim at 'ltedestrec- deavoured to be considered in a light less pleasant' dr iiett, for he could not see upon what grounds we
lion ht all manner ef rona.ris. If they could act con. than a tolerating one ; but as a question of totem- had a right to establish a religion contrary to the
teary to their oaths--if they could not keep their , tion he would contemplate it, notwithstanding.all principles of the 'religion of the majority of that
lands oil' ere. Church, then in what a 'slate of den- 1 the artful arguments which -had endeaioured to country. We had not doneste in Scotland, we had
grr must thst Chtirch Le! The meeting o 1 a Committee overturn it. He was hippy to find, that the time was , not done so in Canada ; yet he would not argue this
in Dublin, of Tollc, for all election of a Member, : now arrived, when those strong obstacles that imp." question, as he felt that although he might' have the
then must our Church be •iii. deneer. If danger to' ded its progress formerly were removed, and i Catho- ' majority with him upon it, he greatly feared if
cur Church were to be enere'netided, oneehendredi lie might safely be alloised.to support the Govern- !'would not ivail him any thing. If an adequate pin-
Protestant /sweatier" 'Mete 'do it just as welt as one! meet in such a manner as wonkl show effectually ; vision was made for the Raman Catholic clergy, in
hundred Catholic representative,. By wealth. com- I that religious liberty was what he had contended for., his opinion, nothing would, attach them more-sin-
try, power, and iticlina:ien, the people of Ireland i Cotdditsbe for a moment contended, the presentswas I cerely to the Goeernmen4 and.add stability and se.
formed one sect ; but the effect of our wide !mad- . a political question alone, then they would be told, !catty to. the Established Cheerch.
kg penal cede was that it separated the nation into that dirtnalification for office was not al penalty? l Mr. FULLER; id etpletiation, said, he bid an-
t" sects. Other sects might he freely and lavishly Could it be contended, that when certain Acts, pre- I deeitood that (ft Hon. aft( Learned Gentlernalqsr '
i
etc- but e. '-- . .. -..- -Wed , fn- ' 'lv eisit •to the hit ' - Ronifllesilletreredertekin 'AO' defeat di cement

nrouraged, :t to the Catholics tiny" dealt out
nothing but cheerless and eternal exclusion. But it
ought to be remembered, that both our Char* and
Sate had been brought into danger by whit:llla been
called,' Ineependetit' Dissenters. It was button true,
a. had been said by a ;light Mu. Cent., that the Ca-
tholics-had- not the berrefit of the Trial, by Jury; ns-
saredly they had not when that Jury Was-lacked by
a iheriir, to whose feelings the name of Catholic was
a' horrent. Could any thing be more disgusting or
aLominable than the system of excrusialflititt-- was
perseverogju Coult,l any thipg be Nom rational?
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into.thst House, and five or six into the House of
Peers ; but, upon the %%hole of the quesslon,tholgie.,
that by granting thosSclainis they would cement toe
union between the two countries. •
Here the cry of Q test:poi .vas reterbetited front
all pills of the House, ru.d s:rangers bud nearly all
withdrawn—when
The CH ANC E LLOR of the 17. XCH EQUI::11 rose.
He observed, that it %%as great palm and refuel.;
ante he rose upon the pr sent occasion, because the
question Lad been so frequently and so recently be-
fore them. He had no new observation to make to
the House ; but he that it might not be thought
that he had relinquished those sentiments he had ex-
pressed upon this subjc:ton former occasions. He
again stated, that he had not withdrawn himseli from
those opinions; and it was the opiaiou of himself, as •
well as those connected in the Government along
with him, that at this time particularly the claims of
Catholics ought not to be c.onewled. %When this qOes,
lion was discussed in the Irish Parliament, in 179=2,
he believed there were.isot more than 25 or "25 found
to support it. • Thk, then, was no proof that if was
supported by the majority of the country. ile wish-
ed to titow from the Right iron. Gcittletnao (Mr.
C attan, whetlur he mein to refer Pie question to a
Committee of the whole House, er a belect Com-
mittee ?
Mr. GRATTA:'S•Onswer.:!il, that lhat was a mat•
ter of subsequent contideration.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
continued—the Right Hon. Gontlemaii did not sp.
pear himself to know what he mcant by the pretent
motion.
Git ATTA N again rose, and said he thought •
it would he better to refer it to a Committee' of the
whole lloose.
The CHANCELLOR .of the EXCHEQUER.
slid, he thought tint would be the most preferable -
mode ; but he would ask, what was to be referred to
that Committee? Were th 7 to till witnesses to their
Bar, or what other mode they were to adept he
know not, for-the Right lion. Gentleman had not ,
condescended to give the House any information
upon that point. lie therefore considered this mo•
tion calculated to mislead the House, and the Right
Hon. Gentleman called upon them' to give, what ha
m;ght call a blind vote; this might be very good Par.
liatnentary tactics, because it might catch some votes;
but was it to go out to the people of Ireland to mis-
guide and mislead them, that a majority of that
House it ere decided in favour of certain concessions
to the Catholics ? As to the question itself, he was of
opinion, that it was not a religious, but a political .
question, and was only to be discussed as S. question
of policy and expediency. But some seemed to
argue it as a question of right, and the Catholics
themselves claimed it as a matter of right, but in
what that right consisted he was still at a loss to
know, for from all the arguments he had heard, he
was not able to col'ect where that right lay.—
The 'Church of Englaud was a Protestant Church,
the Government was a Protestant Goverameut, tho
Parliament was a Protestant Parliament, and
were they now to. introduce Catholics among
them? but if they_ were to make these ronceal
what were the equivalents in return ; were they not
to hare some security ? -Lord G.enville was formerly
of opinion, that no concession should be made with.
out some security; nor had ha heard that the Noble
Lord had altered his opinion. But now they were
i to, make all concession, while the Catholics were to
make none. But will the Catholics grant the Veto?
Oh no, say the Hon. Gentlemen on the oppositeside
of the House, " You have rejected the Veto."—
: Gentlemen seemed to-forget every thing but their '
' own speeches on this point. Did Gentlemen recoi-
-1 led that it was the Catholics themselves rejected it,
by their Bishops, sent over to this country, and af.
! terwards sanctioned by the approb akin of the CI.
tholics at largo. 'Their agent, Dr. Milner, had de-
clued, that they never could grant the Veto while
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was at the
head of the . Government; and -while he remained
Minister, be should rather Buffer martyrdom than
grout him the Veto. He did not think he was so
much Protestant, that while he was Minister the
Itev. Gentleman would rather suffer martyrdom than
grant the Veto. - Ile never treat.t to discuss this
question upon the principles cf the doctrines Gf the
• Roman Catholic Religion, but merely upon the prin.
i cipies of policy and expediency. The Rt. Hon. Gent.
then alluded to a Book, " 7'eactedus dio desia,"
published by the Printer of the College -of May-
; muth, and printed for the use of the Students there,
in which it was laid down, that the Councils were
infallible. The Councils referred to in that book,
were, the Four Lateran Councils, en 1 the Council
; of Trent ' • the latter of which containd all the ob.
noxious doctrines promulgated in the former; yet
; that was recommended to the' Students fs the doe-
trine which they should adopt as h entount of their
faith. He would put it to the Holy eto sly, whether,
lit the Catholics were to eve up those tenets
;so obnoxious and so dangerous to the Established
Church, the Priests would put into the hands of
these youth entrusted to their care for education, a
book, declaring those doctrines to ba infallible, and
recommending it to be adopted by. them as the ma..
nual of their faith.—[Cries of Ilta', hear!]-118
next adverted to, and commented gm, the Publi.
cations of Dr. O'CJnaor and M . -Keogh, from
• which be contended, that even re:inluifhing the
'Veto, and granting thsvconees•ioes the Romans Ca.
tholics now: asked, the Catholl.s cf Intent would
nothe satisfied; we must give to thlir Bishops. this,
Bishopricks to which. they were nominally appoint:-
a, and to their Priests the Rmtore stalls ; we
must give them every thing, or they would not he -
satisfied with any thing. Was it because we' would
not take from them that which they badgot, that we
were now to givi them every thing they asked? Ile
asked. was there a Bishoprick in Isehusdte whith they
had not appointed a Bishop ? or solaria to whlch.ttley

.rent.. k man from honestly rising .ne ighest of-' S. - )9
!ices of the State, tint he. had not penalties imposed', the Dissenters in that Howe ; If he had been ?nista- !had not appointed a Priest ? All ready to fill those si.
upon him ? IVhile the honest ambition 9f glorious- formed, he was sorry for it, and was very ready to.! Mations, the moment theopportunity offered, andwcre
ly distinguishing himself in the service of his country, beg his pardon ; but he must say—[Here a general' Gentlemen prepared to make them concessions to
and the amiable hope of transmitting an honourable cry of Order! Order! Spoke! Spoke! obliged the' that extent ?' An Honourable Gentleman (Mr. W.
name to plsterity, were alike denied him, were not lionourabk Member to sit down.] l Smith) would concede to their Clergy a full partici-
these penalties ?To Cut off the hopes of warming his Mr. HERBERT, of Kerry, rose, amidst a loud I pation in the Church ; would not this be rib Aug the
children's cheeks With a glow of exultation at the cry of Questiot d I Question! -from which:he was sotoe ' Church; and would it not be a vlssiation of one:of
mention of their father's name in some glorious time inaudible llk did cot see any danger arising ! the articles of Union, which bonot3bses.fto ftrotect
,achievement, was not that a penalty ?—[Hear, hear, from granting 'the concessions the Catholics now l the interests of the Church ? Hz: v ery gglt
hear !J-Such • political stigma degraded the natural sought. The saw no evil which could result from ad- I known, that in several counties s,She
erect aria of man. and all because he worshipped milting twenty to thirty Boman eathcilid Members &titan Catkolic freeholder, big 4111111,44064 11..tr'
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