The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-05-28 00:00:00

THE_ STATESMAN,

one, but no orders were given to commit. It is a judicial
act on the part of the Magistrate, who mast act upon his
own discretion, and rest upon his own responsibility. I
should think it a great violation of the Magistrate's duty,
if he relinquished his judgment to any other person, and I
think it would be most improper to ask him to do so.
Thee the Law Officers merely expressed an opinion upon
the Law of the case ?—Merely so-
Would the Attorney-General think a Magistrate acted
improperly in cammitting upon evidence taken before the
Law Officers of the Crown, end which lie Monett had not
seen?-1 think he would act most irregular and indiscreetly
in doing so.
Did Major Slrr state any opinion against that expressed
by the Law Officers of the Crown?—l never heard that he
did, except whet fell from him at the bar of this House. I
never heard that he dissented from the opinion given by the
Law Officers.
By Colonel BARRY—It appeared by Mr. Oreaves's evi-
dence that the depositions were taken in the absence of the
Magistrate, I beg of the Right Honourable Gent, to explain
that f—There certainly were several examinations taken
after the witnesses had been sworn by the Magistrates,
who then withdrew.
It would seem that the Magistrates were desired to
withdraw ?—I do not recollect that that appeared in evi-
dence.
I beg pardon, it does not. But I wish to ask whether the
examioations taken in the absence of the Magistrates were
afterwards shown to them, before they made out the coin-
mkment?—From the evidence of Mr. Greyed, I gather
that they were not ; but that is the first notice I had
of It.
Were the Magistrates advised to commit capitally In the
cases of Forbes and others?—Thb only Magistrate that I
communicated with was Major Simand I certainly told him, it
was my opinion that the prisoners should be committed for
a (*OM' offence—namely, a conspiracy to murder the Lard
Lieetenant. I wish to add, that where examinations• were
taken in the absence of the Magistrates, it was merely I in-
form the Law Officers of the Crown, and not with a view of
laying. the foundation for a criminal charge. I am clearly
of opinion that before the Magistrate committed a prisoner,
he should have the examinations reduced to informations in
the regular way, as he was entirely responsible for the steps
whicb lie took.
By Mr. JAMES D tLY—What then was the object of
filling up the informations if they were only intended to in-
form the Law Officers of the Crown I—l cannot say why
Major Sirr did so. The circumstance was not communi-
cated to me, for I think I had but one conversation with him
upon the subject.
By a MEMBER—Were the Magistrates ordered to with-
drew after they had sworn the witnesses /—I have no recol-
lection on the subject. I believe they were neither ordered
to retire or to remain.
By Mr. BRIGHT—Was the capital charge ever substan-
listed ?—Never.
Was not George Graben committed first only for a mis-
demeanour I—He was.
Was he afterwards committed for a conspiracy to murder
the Lord Lieutenalitt—He was, by Mr. Gabbett.
Had you any conversation wan Mr. Gabbett respecting
this capital commitment ?—1 gather from his evidence that
he understood the opinion of the Law Officers was to that
effect.
Did you, as one of those officers, give such an °pintos'/
I did, but not directly to Mr. Gabbett.
Do you recollect what passed between you and Msjer
Sirr on the occasion to which you allude ?—I think he came
into the Secretary's room at the Castle, in which the Solici-
tor-General, Mr. Goulburo, and I were. This was os Sa-
turday evening, but the commitments were not made out till
the Monday following.
Did yon see Mr. Sirr more than once T—Mr. Goulburn
seems to think I did, but I do not myself recollect having
seen aim more than once. I wish to add, that the communi-
cation of our opinions, as to the law of the case, was made
to Major Sirr, because be happened to be upon the spot, for
helices in the Castle.
Had Major SW applied to you for information upon the
subject I—l hoard that the Magistrates generally bad, but I
did not hear that Major Sirr had in particular.
Was the information which they had gathered laid before
Government?—lt was.

Was the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crowo
founded then upon that information, as well as what they
had learned in the absence of the Magistrate?—Their
opinion was founded upon a view of the whole cue.
Did you signify to the Magistrates that von had infor-
mation, of which they were ignorant?—Not in express
terms ; but Major Sirr was aware that examinations had
been going on in his absence, and, besides, the deposi-
tions were in the hands of the Crown Solicitor, so that
be might have access to them. Major Sirr ought to
have had the examinations reduced to regular informa-
tions, as Mr. Gabbett bld done before be committed
upon them.
Was Forbes held to bail the night of the riot?—l do
not know whether bail was asked ; 1 believe he was dis-
charged.
Was he committed for conspiring to murder the Lord
Lieutenant on the 231 of September ?—He was; that
was his final commitment.
Is the published copy of the trial authentic?—Yes.
Can you state what witnesses were examined on the
trial ?.;-1 cannot tax my memory.—(Hear.)
Is the report acourate enough to be made use of ?—1
have no power to give it any authority.
Were the prisoners tried on two informations ?—They
were. In Ireland it is the practice to file ten informa-
tions for the same offence. although, in this country, the
practice is different.
By Mr. BENNE f—Do the Police Magistrates of Dab-
lin hold their situations at the pleasure of the Crown ?
Some of them do. Major Sirr does not.
Theo his is a patent place ?-.-By the Police Act, sours
of the Magistrates are removeable at the pleasure of the
Crown, but there are others who are appointed by the
city, sod can only be removed by it. Of this latter
number is Major Sirr. .
By Colonel BARRY—Mr Gahbett says he was not
shown all the informations, and that Übe bad seen them,
be would not commit capitally ?—1 thought till this
time, that they had been shown to him.
By Sir JOHN NEWPORT—Were applications ever
made by country Magistrates for advice how to proceed
in difficult cases ?—Applications have been made to me,
but I always refused to interfere.
By Colonel BARRY—Did the Right Hon. Gentle,.
man say that Forbes should be held to bail until he pre-
ferred an es officio information again* him ?—Forbes
himself offered to give bail in 1,0001. '
By Mr. CALCRAFT—Was any additional informa-
tion offered between the preferring of the two charges
against Forbes ?—There must have been, for he was ca-
pitally committed on the 231 of December, whereas the
examinations closed on the 21st.
rM. UOIJLBURN here explained that the tenure by
which the Dublin Magistrates under the Police Act hid
their situations, was cuamdiii se beise gesserint.
By Mr. T. ELLIS.—Does the Attorney-General think
he has a right to call upon any one to give bail to an in-
formation which lie had not filed ?—That was not my
act, it was that of the Court. Forbes offered bail.
Were any of them kept for two days after the Bills
had been ignored by the Grand Jury?-1 cannot spe.k
to that of my own knowledge.
But does the Right Hon. Gent. think that he has a
right to detain men under such circumstances?—That is
a question of law, which I decline to answer.—(Hear.)
The Right lion. Gentleman here sat down.
Mr. CALCRAFT now wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman, who conducted this case, whether be had
any more evidence to offer • for it was his intention to
move the dissolution of the Committee.
Col. BARRY said he certainly bad intended to exa-
mine another witness, who bad not rtt arrived; he,
however, felt the inconvenience to which this inquiry
put the House, and he could not shut his eyes against
the distaste which was shown to continue it. He had,
therefore, no objection. to rest the Sheriff's e Ise here,
and to give over consuming the time of the Hulse, in a

way which did not seem very vadsfactory to the ends of
justice. He should nut therefore oppose the 'notion, for
the Hon. Chairman discontinuing the painful situation
which he bad held so long.
Mr. DEN:IAN.—I cannot suffer tLis inquiry to close
here, under an imputation that we are disposed to go on
farther with it. It is no improper use of our time to be
employed in such a way, for I know no duty of this
House more sacred or important than watching over
and protecting the admiListration of justice.—(Hear.)
Let not the Right Hon. Gent. therefore say, that it is to
spare the time of the House that he gives over ; but if
be will stop here, let it be placed to the account of his
hest discretion for the accused party, and not in the way
of a compromise of an inconvenience.—(Hear.) Last
night I beard with some surprise that the inquiry was
come to a close, because one class of witnesses had con-
tradicted wharanother advanced; but that is the very
time that the judicial power begins—when there is
room to form a judgment from the collision of evidence.
Let it be distinctly understood, then, that the case is
closed, as it was intended to follow it up by proposing
Resolutions. For I repeat, that we could not be better
employed than in such an inquiry, although it should
prolong the session another month.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. CALCRAFT then moved, " that the Chairman
do leave the chair, and report the evidence to the House,"
which was agreed to.
The House then resumed.

The CHAIRMAN then left the Chair and reported ac-
cordingly.
Mr. PEEL said he could not avoid taking the oppor-
tunity to express what he believed to be the sense of the
House, his thanks to the Hon. Baronet for his able and
impartial manner in which he discharged the duties
of Chairman in the late inquiry.—(Hear.)
Mr. WYNN moved that the minutes of the evidence
be laid before the House. —Agreed to.
It was likewise ordered that the witnesses should be
discharged from further attendance.
JOINT TENAN MY BILL (IRELAND.)
Mr. DALY moved that the Joint Tensotcy Bill be re-
committed. _ _

Mr. R. MARTIN opposed the Bill, on the ground
that it would have the effect of disfranchising Roman
Catholics. He thought, at least, that the people of
Ireland should be allowed time to express their opinions
OD the propriety of the measure.
Colonel TRENCH said be could not agree in the ob
jeethses urged by the Hon. Member for Galway. The
abuse which this Bill sought to remove was one of a
moat unreasonable nature. In his opinion the Bill did
not go far enough.
Sir J. NEWPORT said he would most willingly give
his supportttnny measure which would prevent that
minute subillMon of lands which was the great curse
of the peepl.t of Ireliknd. The Wits of the prop!.
led to this abuse. It was the custom there to divide the
I land among the younger branches of the family to such
an extent, that the land, so far from yielding rent
to the landlord, did not afford food to those wh6 resided
on it.

l►ir. LUKE WHITE spoke, we believe, against the
Bill.

Mr. ELLIS supported the Bill.
Mr. DALY explained the evils of the system of joint
tenantcy in Ireland, and denied that it would have the
effect of disfranchising the Roman Catholics
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said he .vas as much as any
man an enemy to fictitious votes. But he considered
this Bill as calculated to limit the elective franchise.
He thought the present a very unfavourable time for
deciding on this Bill. He wished that the Bill
should be held over for further consideration. He
warned his Hon. Friend who introduced this measure
how lie tampered with the feelings of the people of
Ireland at this juncture.
Sir G. HILL agreed in approving the principle of the
Bill, but was desirous of giving the Irish public an op.
portunitv of considering it.
Mr. GRATTAN said it was a great misconception to
suppose that this Bill was intended to disfranchise No.
man Catholics. . . . _ . • . .

The House then divided—For the Bill, 54—Against
it, 0.
This occurred in consequence of Mr. R. MARTIN,
the only opponent of the Bill, having, as we suppose,
been appointed one of the tellers.
On our re-admission to the gallery, we found the House
in Committee, and Mr. Martin on his legs. proposing to
the Hon. Member for Galway, to limit the &traits:to of the
Bill to three years, which would be the termination of
the present Parliament. It would be then seen if the
Bill was caleuleted to do good or nnt. If it were calcu-
lated to do good, it could be revived, if not, it might be
let fall to the ground.
Mr. DALY said, he could not accede to the proposi-
tion.

Mr. C. HUTCHINSON protested against the Bill,
and if the Hon. Member should pen in it, while so
many Irish Members were absent from London, he gave
him notice that he would oppose it in every stage.
After some farther consultat►on between Sir John New-
port, Mr. Daly, Mr. Msrtin, and Mr. C. Hutchinson, the
Hon,e resumed, and the Chairman brought up the Re-
port, which was ordered to be further considered to-mor-
row.

CHIEF BARON O'GRADY.
Mr. S. RICE said, that as he understood it was not
convenient that be should proceed to-sight with the mo-
tion of which he had given notice, relative to the Chief
Baron of the Irish Exchequer, he would postpone it till
to-morrow, and thee, perhaps, he could learn on that day
when it would most snit public convenience to bring it
forward. At the same time he wished to be understood
,s placing himself under the direction of the House, as
to the propriety of bringing it on or postponing it as
they pleased.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at half-past nine o'clock.

COUNT ABISBAL.
COUNT SIONTIJO TO HIS EXCELLENCY THE
COUNT ABISBAL..

" In the name of our afflicted country, I have recourse to
your Excellency. the only person who can save her, and en-
treat you to consider Spain, divided and dismembered br
her own children, as in the same situation in which she was
in MOS, raising the voice of common distress, and soliciting
all her offspring for a deliverer. At that period, as at the
present, the disorder of her Government debilitated her to
such a degree, as to leave her without defence, and make it

appear Chit it Was easy to conquer her. At that time, as
now, the nation which is our neighbour offered to remedy the
evils which were felt by all, took possession of our fortresses,
and introduced its armies, with a view thereby to ensure the
happiness which it tendered, and which was the greatest
possib:e soy people can enjoy—Monarchy, a just and mode-
rate Government. At that time, as now the Spauiards, driven
to despair by the calamities they suffered, opened their
houses and their arms to the stranger, receiving him and car-
rying hint as it were in triumph through the northern pro-
vinces up the capitol. The latter resounded with shouts of
joy at the entry of the French troops, and of the General who
led them. Every evil was looked upon as trifling, and pre-
ferable to the continuation of disorder and despotism, inso-
much that people invoked the despotism of Buonsparte to get
rid of that of 0 odoy. Even so now the public are clamorous
for the absolute King, in order to free thernvelv•st from
anarchy sr d from the despotism:of the many. Finally, Vim
as now, two powers disputed the ascendant, because neither
of them possessed this general good-will. The people in si-
lence and uisasayed,viewed with bitter smiles,and almost with
complacently, the fall of their Government and even
of their King ; forgetting the mischiefs they brought on
themselves, and the dangers which they incurred. But
all at once an undwintel voice called out at Aranjnez,

" Long live Spain, down with the despot!" And sr soon
as the latter had disappeared, all Spaniards i.nited. Li-
vision was at an end ; patriotism and valour were
ed, and the conqueror of Europe in the end deplored h:s
imprudence. It was at Aranjuez that Bonaparte lost his
power, for without the 19th of March the Spaniards
would have made no resistance. But now the French
are once more near the capital. The general will cannot
be mistaken ; the injustice and perverseness of the exist-
ing Government are well known. Still we do not bear
the shout which all are hoping for, of Spain for ever !
Independence forever!' The armed force, the warrior,
of Spain, are into parties, outdoing each other in
acts of injustice, because none of tt,ein is sanctioned by
the general will. The soldier is loth to incur useless
dangers; be deserts his ranks, and will ultimately aban-
don his Generals. who find it impossible to support any
cause. Let, therefore, your Excellency come to a decision,
and stretch forth your jiancl to save yourself and to save I
us—that is, the country. Her welfare is the first law.--
Your Excellency knows, and has declared that the sove-
reignty of the people being once recognized, it becomes
a duty to obey the general will', which amounts to this--
that the Constitution of 1812 ought not to be retained,
because it does not guarantee individual safety, nor pre-
serve the dignity of the Spanish monarchy. Proclaim,
therefore, what all desire, and act in concert with the
o:her Generals who entertain the same sentiments. Dr.
dare yourself independent, %Intl the King shall be rr-
leased. Collect your army, and hasten to destroy the •
origin of discord ; so that the factious, the royalists, and
the foreigners, being deprived of every pretext, may bare
r their designs frustrated, if they wish to rob us of the glc-
ry to deliver the King, and their plans totally defeated,
if, under this pretext, they conceal some other wish.
" Your Excellency ought to consider, that no party
can be sustained without strength; and you may a.-
ready have perceived, that the latter cannot be acquired
without public confidence : to obtain which, it is neces-
sary to act in conformity with the general will.
" Were I not well assured that your Excellency loves
Spain and glory, I should not apply to you ttvavail youi-
self of the grandest opportunity which has ever occurred
of becoming the deliverer not only of Spain, but of all
Europe. It would be an insult to your penetration to
dwell upon the melancholy consequences, and above all
upon the uselessness of taking any other resolution ; far
to attempt the defence of any cause with few forces,
when more numerous forces are at hand, is to enfeeble
the cause which we desire to uphold. To sum up the
whole, I am certain that it is as impossible to establish
despotism in Spain, as it is to sustain the Constitution of
1512 ' with this difference only, tificLat the expense of
blood, and with numerous forces, the former might he
kept up for swine time; but to put in practice the Con-
stitution of the year 1512 is physically and mor.clly im-
possible, and consequently it has failed in Spain and
every where else t for it is contradictory in itself, and
contains the principles of its own destruction; it could
' prevail no where, becanse it is out of the power of
man to create beings with qualities essentially contra-
dictory.
" Let your Excellency consider these truths which
the love of his country has suggested to him, who prays
God to preserve your Excellency many years.
(Signed) " The CONDIL DLL BIONTIJO.
")Madrid, May 11, 1823."
HIS EXCELLEVCY THE COUNT DEL ADISBAL TO

COUNT MONTIJO.
" Most Excellent Sir, —This day was delivered to me
by the Chief of the Etat-Major the letter of your Excel-
lency, dated the 11th instant ; and in reply to it, it is my
duty to observe to you, that as the chief of this district,
and the commander of the army, it is incumbent on we
to comply with the orders of the Government, at the
head of i hi •h is his Majesty, and that I am resolved to
pursue this line of conduct, though I am fully convinced
I that, unfortunately for the nation, the Ministry which
governs it is incapable of rescuing it ham the dangers
to which it is reduced by tue unskilfulness of the pre-
ceding Ministers, and by the unpardonable imprudence
of the last, who have provoked the present war without
displaying the energy necessary for upholding the dig-
nity of the nation, or proposing those conciliatory means
that might have united the minds of Spaniards, and
have prevented foreigners from the daring attemet to it-
terfere in the private disputes of Spain, by violating the
territory of the nation, without any previous declaration
of war. _ _ . .

" I have observed already, and I now repeat, that in the
capacity of General, I moist now obey the orders of the
Government, and not set the exampli of a pernicious dis-
obedience, which would authorise that of those Spaniards
whom the law places under my orders, and would open a
vast field to private ambition ; but, as a Spanish cititee,
who may, without transgressing the laws, indulge his
own thoughts respectilig the situation of the country,
and the Evans which might be taken to rescue her from
the ruin prepared for her by the discord, by fanaticism
and by the interests of the individual heads of party, who;
disguise their ambitious views with the sacred name of
love for their country, and also of a nun.erous class of
men who have nothing to lose, and who are inflamed
with the love of plunder and distraction alone, which
woold contribute to the prosperity of those pere.ms who
can make a figure in society only when the barriers of
subordination and respect to the laws are removed ; l am
of opinion, that the majority of the nation is not solicit-
ous to continue the Constitution of the year 18s2, though
itis not for me to investigate the causes which may have
produced the very notorious dislike espressed in regard
to the laws emanating from it.
" That the decided majority of intelligent persons,
distributed among the different parties which unfortu-
nately divide the nation, abhors both despotism and fa-
naticism, and wishes for a liberal constitution, which
may facilitate as much as possible all classes of the state,
unite the will of the Spaniards by. insuring the dignity
and ioviolability of the Constitutional Throne, and do
away the pretext that may be pleaded by foreigners fur
intermeddliug in our domestic concerns, to the u anitest
infraction ado law of nations, so as to compel them to
desist from their enterprise, on perceiving that Spanish
wisdom knows how to curb the fury of parties, and force
them to retire; because the Spaniards themselves, is
concert with their Monarch, discuss like bra thren the
questions which divided their opinions.
" That a considerable portion of the lower classes, un-
accustomed to think for themselves, have no opinion
whatever, act on the rooted habit of respecting as most
just that which is most ancient, and desire pillage and li-
centiousness, which, at the expense of people of prope
tv, supply them with some conveniences which they meet
tOrego in times of tranquillity ; and that the means which
might he employed to re-establish peace and ill ioa,woull
be, first, to notify to the invading army, that the nation,
in concurrence with the King, proposed to make in its
present Constitution snrh alterations as experience has
taught it to he necessary to unite the minds of tits
Spaniards, and ensure their happiness as well as the di,
nity of the Consti!u.ion al Throne; and that, consequeno
ly, it ought to tetire from the Spanish territory, and iO.ll.
bne'itself to amicable elision by means of its Ala-
bassador. Secondly, that his Majesty- and his Govern-
ment should again he estaY,i;tlira at Madrid, as the capi-
tal of the Mormici.,. ; lest it should be said that be ao-
ji-urns at Seville against his inciinat'on. Thirdly, that
iu order to make in the Constitution such reforms as ars
deemed requisite, a new Cortes should be convened,whosd
Deputies should present themselves with the powers
specified by the Constitution. Fourthly, that it be pto-
posed to his Majesty, that he wool be pleased tu choo,e
• Ministry which simuld be wedded to no party, a.l-1
.huuld IL-serve the confidence of all, as well as gist of
e'oreign rowers. Autl liaLhv, that a geueral aa, es;