The Statesman.
London, England, 1810-01-27 00:00:00

ti

THY, STATESMAN.'

Acute, Rrt.! therefor, he ei,s.sid red it, insto ad of
itsi:e.trs ; 10114941 for tiofo x much stronger
u.te. eutil the uromketi information
leas befo.to lase House. lie w ileitis,' it was
'afrly with his Sla;estv—(foloreturs)—he
Incloot rstipectfully, or ts.vh ;he officers, this to
Freinofge tke question i. the ab.roce of all Otos.:
proofs without uh chi ‘cis imp.).Fibie to arrive at
a jut 11113 correct i Upon these grounds
it was, that he felt it his duty to move the previ-
ous question, conceiving also, that, by the former
decashott of the Rouse, it w,t; bound by its own
eona.talcucy to reject the motion of the Noble
Lord. .
hi v. BATHURST expressed it as his opinion,
that notwithstanding the liteiy spirits and alfeettd
candour of the last Speaker, his Right lionoura.
Me Friends had evinced no great sagacity itt select.
ing him to put himself forward upon the present
occas;ine. He deprecated in strong terms the at.
tempt to fetter the decisions of that Mouse, by the
Introduction of his Majesty's name impuiperly ;
neither would he allow, that he was at all re-
stricted in his %Tot: upon that night, by whatever
ling.'s( conduct he had. felt it his duty to take the
Arst'aight of the Session. The Hon. Merin. had also
attempted to attach s want of candour to the course
pursued by the Noble Lord, upon grounds wholly
untenable. Had the NololeLord cared upon this
novrel merely toaster upon a pbblic inquiry, then
tin lion. Member would have exclaimed, What
inquiry ? Where were the grounds ? Yet, when
the reasons for such a proposition were stated,
then the expedient to deal out the charge of its
beieg uncandid, and that the House, by acceding
to it, were guilty of prejudging the case, was re.
sorted to. lie was of opinion that there was, !T-
-om the face of those transactions, fully sufficient
t, warrant the presumption, that inquiry was
necessary. The country had the same feeling,
and the pudic voice, which, upon this paint, was
neither factiously or unreasonably raised, ought
to be heart', lie therefore should giro his vote in
favour of the original motion.
Mr. FULLER stated his coincidence with the
opinion of the Hon. Member who just concluded;
but conceived, that it would be right in him, and
other Members, not to take up too much of
the time of the House, in making long and
extraneous speeches. (A laugh, and order,
order!) Such a practice prevented many able and
worthy men from exprosing shoitly their reasons
fur the course of conduct which they adopted.
With respect to the immediate question before the
house, he had no hesitation in saying, that in-
quiry into the cause of the late failures was •abso-
lutely necessary. It was called for by the country,
jrn one extremity of it to the other. Great dis.
mfitures had occurred, and the people had aright
to know with whom the blanie ought to rest, win-
ther with these who planned, or with tam who
executed. The information pronsi,ed by Mi-
r; c.f..= stool(' not have bees delayed; in his opi.
WU, the papers slsoutd have been before the
Ju o i,(l the very day of Its first meeting. [Heat* !
hear!] To bo sure, they were promised In the
Kill's Speech, but he never knew any of these
Speeches to be any great things. [A laugh.]
Ile was the enemy to the continuance of sinecure
rl he thought no man should hold yr office of
this kind who did not do the duty of it. Eit laugh.]
Woen the tax. gatherer was unceasing in his
demands upon the people of this country,
it WAS intoferable to find great public men talc.
10,0001. or 12,0001. a year out of the peo-
ple's pockets. The correction of such abuses
would be true reform, making the House the ho.
nest Representative of the People, and rendering
wholly ridiculous these now.fangled doctrines of
representation which were new too low for dis-
cussion in any respectable place. When an Ho-
pourable Gentleman (Sir John Sebright) talked' of
the little claim Ministers had to confidence, he
must answer, that he (Mr. Fuller) could place
little confidence in him who endeavoured to drive
him out of that House.—( Loud laughter)
The CHANCELLOR of the Ex.cumauta

acqaiesced in the opinion of his llonourable Friend
(Ir. Bathurst), that he was unfettered in the line
of conduct which he had determined that night to
persee by any opinion or course which on the
1.. 'ruler night he had taken, particularly as con-
nected with the reasons which he (Mr. Bathurst) had
'upon that occasion specially given. But whilst he
t was ready to make that admission, he at the same
time must be allowed to say, that it would not be
et all inconsistent in his lion. Friend to take the
"I ' contrary
• .I.clso the present motion disposed to take: The ques.
‘ t ... now was not, whether the House shall or
1t ' ' 11 not go into inquiry, bet whether it will suspend
F
" e motion for going into such inquiry until thel
et !-Ilifernatien which was necessary was before the 1
• 14 liittse. Thei craves stun his I,loaourable Friend 1
gh-,•-tarereet-thr pieviossiminiegf MAO trot because he
teas hostile to inquiry, but that' 'he conceived the
1 . 31Ionseshould not precipitate itself to the adoption of
• a emirse in the ab.ence.of all those proofs which
were necessary k , fora) a correct judgment,
brat, whether inquiry should take place, and
real, in what manner it should be conducted.—
The Noble Mover had stated, that as soon as
the House should have adopted his 'resolution,'
that hi. next step would he to inquire of him
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) when the
proposed information would. be laid before the
H.,use. Ile rather thought that this question
should have preceded the present motion • and
therefore he felt it his duty to explain himself
anon that subject, in the present stage of the dis.
cession, to the house. It would be a very great
disappointment to him if the papers would not be
ready to be laid on the table by Monday; and it
• was also his determination, that the printing of
them should be expedited as fast as possible. .That
being the state of the question, the HOW° was
now called upon to decide, whether, Withorit in.
Zorromion, they will proceed upon a Friday to
do that which, if it be found necessary to do,
they can, with the papers and proofs is their
possession, carry into effect 11Pon the enceeeding i
Monday, The motive to inquire, if sincere, must
I* to amain information, that information was in II
peoguebs to he comtnenicated, and, therefore, now
fo 10656 thejirunto tq a precipitate rauletion of this

kind, could be for no other object but to Obtain
its vote, before the information, which ought to
guide its decision, was imparted. Men), Hoe.
Gem lcinen have said, that the country wants,
prompt inquiry, and that the gratifieatiup dutch
a reasonable anxiety ought not to be delayed. In
the course intended by his Majesty's Government,
there cannot bee loss of a day, or oven an'hohr.
'But, perhaps, the disposition to press the resole-
tion of that night may be traced to other motives
of a more powerful influence upon some minds
than the affected solicitude for inquiry. There had
bceu something said of a knowledge of Parliamen-
tary tactics; and perhaps the events of a former
night had convinced the opposite side, that there
was not much generalship in the course followed
upon that occasion ; and that the failure of that
night might be retrieved by the present expedient.
[Hear! hear!) Upon the former occasion, the
Gentlemen oppoisite comedown, in the fullest con-
fidence of their own stiength, with a motion un-
equalled in the annals of Parliament, for width
he challenged them to produce, in the history of
the country, a single precedent. (/leer! hear!
from both rides of the House.)"
A Member from the Opposition Bcuch whis.
pered across the Table, that there never was such
an occasion.
Mr. PERCEVAL resumed. It has been net
very regularly intimated, that there never was any
such occasion. Indeed it would be difficult to find
such a course adopted upon any occasion in any
Assembly which had regulated its proceedings by
a regard to justice, namely, to condemn that
which they afterwards affected to inquire int,. It
was, indeed, reserved for the present times and
actors, to act upon a principle whith heretofore
was reprobated, and to reduce into their practice
the disreputable doctrine, so well comprehended,
in the words of the Ancients, " Castigatque, au-
detquc." Before the House pledged itself to in.
quiry,. in the manner prescribed by the motion of
the Noble Lord, it ought first to know the nature
of that evidence which such an iuquiry might draw
I forth. If in that evidence it should' appear that
the Expedition was undertakes' in consequence of
communicutions from any Foreign Power, did
the Noble Lord, could the House conceive, that
the mode pointed out by him of a Committee, was
a proper one fur the discussing and giving publicity I
to such puts of the information produced ? When
such stress was laid upon the importance of the
tribunal to which the Noble Lord wished to have
this inquiry referred, one would have supposed
that he was alluding to impeachnient, and was dis-
turbed at the lapse of time which the erection in
Westminster Hall would consume, before the ob.
ject sought fee could be realized. As he stated
before, there could be no time gained by the pre-
wit motion, and therefore it was his intention to
vote for the previous question, leaving, as it did,
the House perfectly at liberty, when tie informa-
tion was before it, to take that course which it
should feel to be then correct. He Could oat think
that there was say ground for hopotiog to his
Honourable Friend s(Mr. Croker) the Idea that
he had introduced his Majesty's ham. with any
Improper object, or that he. alluded to the deal.
rations in his speech, with any other impression
than that it was the speech of the Ministers. The
vote which the Noble Lord was anxious .that
night to give, might be a very great deihicratiim
with him, and all such others as were anxious to
get the present Servants of the Crown removed
from office; a very natural object for them, as
natural as it was for him to unmask theirs, and
to shew to the House that though inquiry was
their pretext, the other wal their pursuit. That
they would have succeeded upon a former Occa.
lion they had the fi:lleat confidence, hut never was
disappointment more strikingly 'exemplified.—
( Hear ! Hear ! from the OppoSition.)
Mr. WINDHAM said, the Right Honourable
Gentleman had been pleased to indulge himself in
much fancied pleasantry at the supposed confi.
deuce of Opposition in their own strengfli-,—this,
idea was taken up certainly for the rake of the
joke, and had no existence excel:Witt his own mind.
Notwithstanding the jest, flowerer, he was still of
opinion, that the Motion ought to be sup,
ported. It was a Motion, indeed, Which needed
no previous information—a motion which ought,
to be carried by general acclamation, and not
subjected to a dry deliberation. .In his opi.
nion, it would disgrace Parliament to wait
for any information on the subject ; they had
all the information which was necessary, and
the production of any papers Woad' only prove
an aggravation of enormities, already too glaring.
To *whom was this great disaster to be imputvil ?
To the Commanders ? No Ofinisters themselves
did not accuse them. To the wind and weather ?

How could that influence ships in part,, or en
army not exposed ? 'to the. fortune cilitilrl. Nu ;
for where the troime wete engaged,, they leery
uniforritly etetarinni: ttlitilfid7theismne
attach? To those and those solely; who
' the Expedition—who planned it in direct del..
ance to plain and pre.existie objectialisedien
sent 'our • brave soldiers. to tier '
rish in the pestilential miasmata of Holland
—.to expire like a candle in a
If papers were necessary, hosiei.:r, as the
Speech seemed to intimate, the decent course
wonid hire been for Ministers them'
have laid the
on the table -the very first day of the Session.
[Hear! hear!]—They theMselves alloy el they.
were necessary ; why, then, werelhey.not forth.
coming ? Though Ministers couldforesee nothing
else, surely they could not be ighorent that Par.
liament was to meet on the day'it'did, Wear,
hear !]-He wished they hid shale little or the
alacrity with which they withdreiitite troop, from,
Holland, in the preparatioq.et Omni, in ills mind,
unnecessary papers.
.It was said that the Speech
was the Minister's Smith, and not the King's.
Why then did the Hon. Gentleman demand respect
for it from the !louse ? As the Srech ofthe
certainly it would have been entitled to every re.
spect; but as the Speech of the Alloister, to mine',
The concluded by hopieg, that the Hausa would
skew, by its immediate
.msetlipnetion, that thii
was a snbject epee 10014, 311111fOrt 40Uperaticon
wu nnneeeisary. . '
Mr! PONSQNDT Uri 10.. HQ-

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nottiable Gentlenro opposite had Waited' the
question; . where he said it was a inert; question
'between Friday and Monday—a mere grestioo as
to the propriety of waiting a few hours, or de-
ciding immtdiately. It was no such question;
the oity.question was whetheethat }lnure wowiti
'do its duty, or defer it in compliment to the Ni-
oister.--( flew, hear, hear!) The Minister de.
sired the House to wait for his information! Who
ever heard of such a request oo the part Of the
accusal ?—[flerte!]—ln courts of justice,
if a prisoner was to say to the Judge, " Wait,
'do not condemn me, wait iu complaisance
to my merit, and you shall hear in time
, *hat a famous story I shall toil you." Who
I would ever think of paying him attention J—
r Thor, hear 1 Why should Parliament wait
one moment? Why wore not the papers ow the
table the first day of the Session ? Let the an-
swer which the Minister advised the King to
make to the Corporation of the City of Loudon
be recollected, " He did not think it necessary
to institute any inquiry into the conduct of his
Commanders by sea or land, but left it to the wis-
dom of his Parliament to proceed as they thought
proper." [Hear, hear !] Parliament had ;tow
met, and why should it not immediately. pro.
teed' It was the first time, he believed, in the
histort of the country, in which, in times of
great national calamity, the House of Commons
a England was desired to wait on the p4a.
/sure of the *Witter! [Hear, hear!] The
Minister said, It sebnltl.be preposterous to tote
inquiry, and then ask for information : yes, Po
it would, if the House was to stint itself to the
scanty information which he would give it ; but
it would do no such thing—it would reject his of-
fered and unnecessary information, and in its own
wisdom, proceeding on its own grounds, probe
the calamity to the b woe% (Hearl hear!) The
Minister also said, that the Amendment on the
first uight went to prejudge the question, and,
in this also he was mistaken ; the Amendment
only went the length of stating, that the Expedi-
tion was a grcat public calamity. Was an Inquiry
necessary, now to ascertain that ? ((leer ! hear!)
An Inquiry was indeed necessary; not, however, to
ascertain whether the Expedition was a calamity or
not, but Co ascertain to whoin the calamity was
imputable. [Hear, hear !] This was the only
object of the proposed Inquiry, and condenina-
tion would of course follow the discovery. Con-
demnation of tho culprit, whoever he might be,
was indeed imperiously demanded.—" The the.
my has declared (said Mr. PonsonbyY that the
Genius of France conducted the British army to
perish in the pestilential marshes of Walcheren."
No ;jt was not the Genius of France, but the
Demon of England—a weak, divided, dis.
traded, and- incapable Administration ; ill
thought of by all, and suspected by them.
selves ; contemned -by the country, and di.
Tided• against one another; their very leader—he
who commanded the finances of the nation—declar.
ittg himself ineocent because he was igaerant.—
Behold the picture of a -British Ministry !!
pear, hear, hear .9 Why should Bonaparte
-wage hostility against) the country of which such
men are the Ministers ? [Hear, hear .PJ What need
has he of Ills great power and talents to cope with
their insincerity to themselves, and their Lacey*.
.oity in their offices ? [Hear, hear !]-11006,
:who, unanimous that their inefficient colleague
shoed,: be dismissed, yet allowed him to remain
in power ; allowed him to conduct the greatest
expedition which ever left our coast, oitirkieh
.the eyes of England were fixeiN and the fate of
Europe depended--lest they should hurt his feel.
ings! [Loud crier of hear !] Men, who were
content to our brave soldiers to their grave—
content to sqander the treasure of the country—
content to tarnish our national name, iu the
hope of finding some colourable pretext for
reconciling the Noble Lord's feelings to his
incapacity ! i'Vhere was their consideration for
the honour of their country ? Where for the fame
raf the army ? Where for the feelings of the people
.who had committed such a trust into their hands ?
(trearli- hear!) And yet how is it to be endeared,
rthat one of those men should be transferred to the
141diad of the present Administration, and demand.
`ft
.the confidence of that Mute, desire it to ab-
stain from all inquiry into their misfortunes, till
he should think proper to give it his information.
We have indeed experienced many calamities. We
have tolerated innumerable sufferings and priva-
tions ; but if this &Oland is this night 'exceeded to;
if such a Minister obtains the confidence of this
House, then malignant men enough may be found
in the nation to pronounce its greatest calamity—
nab an House of Cotnnsons !
~-. Mr. STEPHENS, after a few words, said he
should vote forthe previous Question.
~..:Sir. SAM UPIL ROMILLY was convinced that
sot one hour shiiild be last in instituting an In.
pilot; - Ile .e.Liold not isissligsbe burn a V oteliek ail.
•14iiiry could be Said to shrew a blame on Mi.
oilaters, unless. they were convinced themselves,
that the result of the Inquiry would be to make
their guiltawident.
Mr.. LESLEY FOSTER si

It tho

.•'
7
Motion:.
..•
Gencril GROSVENOR and Sir NOM POP.
HAM supported themotion.
Mr. EYRE, impressed with the idea, ihit for
the honour of the House, an Inquiry should be
as speedy ns possible, would vote for the Motion.
Mr: SMITH thought the Inquiry would come
'hotter on Monday.
• 'Sir GEORGE WARRENOER would vete
'fat the question the readier, as the Hight lion. and
Gentlemen opposite had stated, that it wits
'llll attempt to effect their removal Troia, ape.
" *Mr. D. °BROWNE spoke spinet the MotiOu.
' Mr.H A RYF.Y thought there was cake acorn.
plaint somewhere.
Mr, WILBERFCMCH 'said, he had heeq thirty
ierfrs a Member of that House, hut in ail thht
time he ,fever found the Ministers of the clay
plendly is inquiry, they allylo opeosil. pm-
float for that purpose, either directly or iedi.
rectly. Ile should be extremely 'OO to see Mi.
tchgen shoe( disposition:W.ll*c the rushes of
I.the country.• He wooftt hate them aatioes -at
on% to Onto to Inquiry, when they fount' tour.
•