The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-04-18 00:00:00

THE ST Ato.lll4k

saw.
111011911 talents were so well able to protect himself
tear), when charges of injustice were brought against
hat Officer because he did not shrink from the perfor*),
once of a r!uty. The power of the Law Officer of the
Crown could never he admitted by hire to be strictly consti-
tutional, but if ever there was a case where an intervention
of the strongest nature was justifiable, the lute cireautstene
res of Ireland were of that description. He was afraid of
giviig a decided *eke oe thoje weesemstioesto.e.
try., where. a Prift said, .••what was tritielsewhere was
riot true there,' He was 'cautious of roving of an
pre
iritset • Artornerftenerel in shit— ectentrys
4...1ett, however. that the Learned Gentleman was not
fairly met in that Hem, or shiehled from a blow which
seemed to imply that it came hrnied with justice. Under
.41 the circumstances, he felt that he could do no servitor
in attending a discussion, either to the Catholics them
selves or to the country. But hq felt it necessary to de-
clare that he was a friend to emancipatien as fervently as
before, and that he bad no approbenstoo of danger either
to Church or State. It was not a cense of morals or
plitrion, but a calculation of intatests.—(Hear, bear.)—
and the opposition to it nothing more than a resistance on
the part of those who held power and place, to admit
others to share them—(Hear.) He was convinced that in
the present day, in the-year 1523, there was not a person
even, with honest and sincere prejudice, if stupid enough
'ln he prejudiced, who could pretend an alarm at a combi-
nation of foreign Popish Sovereigns to brine about the
1/011 and the Pretender.—(llear and laughter.) No one
doubted now the title of the Royal Family to the throne.
No one can helices now in Popish plots to massacre *
duty, though en Hon. Baronet (Sir T. Lethbridge) bad
galled the attention of the House to a plot among the
Jesuits.—(Hear, and laughter.) Those fool-
ish' as they were*, had no longer any, fo elec.
•There
ir
was an end at present to all State da ' —lbw' Preten-
der was out of the question, and the , ' was is harm-
less as any old lady in Christendon IOW.) Tbere
was cot a men in the country who would pot laugh is
.the fate. if be did not spit in the face,. of any person
who secured bins of such folly, unless it were souse of
those believers in the existence of ghosts and witches, or
one of that party who sallied out a few nights since to
draw blood from the finger of a witch to cure her
'eharms.—(baughine.) [" In Somersetshire," acid an
lion. Member, which produced loud and continued laugh-
ing for several minutes.] It was true (resumed Sir P.
'Burdett) that none bet a Somerset man could ever com-
mit such an absurdity. In fact, there was no man in the
%pantry sincere in his apprehetnion of dander to the
Star ; and he would be content to resist the issue of the
question elan the Right Hon. Member for Oxford, stand-
ing up in his place, laying his hand upon his beort, and
.deelartne solemnly that be thought the Constitution
would be endangered by Catholic Emancipation.•-•-
(Hear.) There was no danger in carrying the question.
bet there was danger in nine-tenths of the people of Ire-
• land having their hopes excited by. the Right Hon. Oen-
tletnan (Mr. Canning), and their injuries heightened by
Us eloquence. What effect must it not hitie upon them ;
Must they not feel their wrongs doubly. to see them year
atter year depicted in such glowing language, and still
no relief afforded them? It must, instead of tranquilliii
in e, be the source of excitement to retaliation upon those
who are so forcibly pointed out as their oppressors. Such
was the state of Ireland, anti such was the questiou which
the House had to discuss that night, and net whether the
Catholics of Ireland, should be admitted to all they
asked. Their interests or the interests of the Catholics
of England, who had still stronger claims, from not hav-
ing received the same concessions which Ireland once
received, were not alone at stake, The Catholics of Ire-
land, when they b..ldly demanded their rights, had con-
cessions made them,but it was only at moments when their
tone was decisive, or sehen the fears of this country were
excited, that they did meet the least considetation.—
T. e discontent of Ireland was in his opinion, as just
source of apprehension to England ; and this countr
was to
could not be happy or prosperous while Ireland
be the impatient victim of its oppression. The safety of
England required that nine-tenths of the people of Ire-
land should not remain in the state in which they were
then represented to be, because the s stein under which
they had long suffered. was for a moment relaxed.—
Ireland was thrown into a state of agitation, because it
was it last favoured with a Lord Lieutenant disposed to
eonciliation—such a Chief Governor war rarer there
than a black swan—(A laugh); and because in At'orney
General was the protector and not• the oppressor of the
. people. If such an officer was as rare as a black swan,
it also seemed that he was marked out as a black slip
by the offended party. This, then, was a question in
in which the balance of office and-duty was so nicely ar-
ranged, that the only preponderance in favour of it arose
from the part of the Cabinet who had the preponderance
in talent, being its supporters—(Hear.) It • would be
seen, if it was brought forward with sincerity by the
one side, that it would have the effect of breaking up the
Cabinet. *All public considerations were to give way to
that apprehension. The balance of power in Europe
or the internal interests of the country were, it appeared
to give way to that consideration. The country was
euffering.sli which impotence could inflict. The present
system of imbecility-7-the present impotence on every
question where selfinterest was concerned, was not only
bMnging the country into contempt, but cutting off all
iesverources, and in the view of those who looked pros-
pectively, depriving it of all those capacities of retain-
ing power and wealth, such as id nation before ever pos-
eessel—(Cheers.) Having thus exp d their disap-
probation of that annual farce, he would justify his con-
duct by the words of a person whose eloquence and ta-.
kits commanded the highest respect: No Minister
night to venture to propose such a question, unless he
p:a• determined to carry it through. The • speerh from
which ise'woold read an extract, which conveyed his
*esti ments more forcibly than any language of .as own
mutual, was addressed to the House on the 25th of Feb.
1013, by an- Hon. Gentleman:4llr. Plunkett.) He
would offer that in conclusion to the House, fur it uas
his intention rot to wait the discussion of the question,
but to leave the House, disapproving as he did of the
temporising and hollow manner in which it was brought
forward. The lion. Baronet then read the following
extract from Mr. Plunkett's speech on the Catholic ques-
tion in 1813:
•
.. Rut haw can any honest mind be reconciled to the am.i
biguity in which the Cabinet has concealed itself from pub-
lic view en this great national question—or with what jus-
, lice can they complain of the madness arising ono ut of thisect fe-
ver
.of their owe treating......... Th subj of
comprornise--either the claim is forbidden by some imp
l:OM priciple, too weed to be tampered with, or it is en-
joined 'by a law of reason and justice, which It is oppression
to.reaist. In ordinary cases, it sounds well to say, that a
get-mica Is left to the unblessed ease of Parliement and
the people t but that a measure of OW importance, which
has bee* discussed again and again by ail his Majesty's Mtoi-
nisters. should be left to work its own way, and suffered
drift •alons the title of Parliatuentary or popular opinion,
seems dlfflealt to uaderstand
pat they all have considered it deeply, and formed their
opinions decidedly, in direct opposition to each other, that
after this they shook( consult hi the same Cabinet. and sit on
Vie santabeach, professing a decided opinion in point of
lhoory.end stcict centrality in petit of practice.
One lota of thn King'iltlinisters encouraging them to seek
without enabling them tOobtain; the other half. subdivided,
Some boring out an ambiguous hope, otrsimouncing a
raver-ruling ..despair, I
.esk, is tide a stetson which the
pokeenriseit has a tight to leave it 7 Some master-piece of
imperial policy must be unfolded. something far removed
from the sospicioa of unworthy compromise of principle fcfr
raftir. to recovile the.teilinge of the intelligent public,
sr
or
..1"olcla rational eolifidenee in thehowosty sod seriousic
of the Ocieetomeat."
The wading of this speeclt was &completed by the fre.
vest chews of the House.: .. • .. .
.

.. .
,t4ar .i.,,i-o. tiet 1 . - T
ii.,... - .
...
t4a
n. r ?t ids aboutl-eto-rpeucitiferlt uttlernloimehrAse
,s leary's jilinisters attagted $l, do tieir dity, AO,
i shOuld 'decline— . ,
. Mr. CANNINU.—I begardon ; but as the Hon. Bae.
WATS "ilieut to liiivie2-TEReihl " Ordet.'7 •
Mr. CANNlNitiat doyter , . • .
Lord NUGENT said that if he did not.k.- e way to.
Ile 'Right ficitionialTenian, it was from an sole',
iety to declare his non-cOoentreitee in the iteteluilon if
. the lion. Baronet. .11 wan.not- because the-conduct of.
Ministers met his disapprobation that he shollo give lip
his own duty to the neuntry., Of the coat 11:,WItatie
tees be was careful not to express Meisel,* is Luigi
then was depressed with shame and aorilltv• at it. SA
'oog as the question should be brought foriO4, be fe
it to be his ditty not to fail in being at his ptwt.
On Mr. CANNING being loudly called for from 1)41
sides of the House, he rose and said that he patented the
indulgeoce of the House and the Noble Lord for the in-
terruption which Le gave. it arose frooa an anxiety to
offer some observations in reply to the Speech 4 an Hon.
!limpet in his presence; and as that Hon. Member bad
expressed an intention immediately to quit the House,
he was anxious to express his sentiments. The Honour-
able Baronet, a few eights ago, had taken it on himself
iii state, that he (Mr. Canning) was heard to declare
that he considered the question of Roman Catholic Eman-
cipation as a hopeless one. Ile (Mr. C.) never Bait. any
suct thing, nor thought any such thing. Ho was pet--
mailed be never gave such an opinion ; and thpuglt he had
no distinct recollection of the words which be used on the
particular occasion alluded• to by the lion. Baronet, yet
he could venture to say that he never declared the cruse
of emancipation to be hopeless, because he never enter
tained any such fears fur its ultimate success.—(liear.)
bear.) Wbat he had said, and from the repetition of
which he did not shrink, was this: that in the present
state of the country, the condition of this and the other
House of Parliament, the practice which prevailed—a
practice founded less in any ordinance of the Contitu-
tion than in custom, of choosing front amongst the
Members of either House those who were to form the
MiQistry, it was impossible to bring together any set of
men who would agree in opinion upon this question, and
be at the saute time qualified to direct the measures of
Government. lint if there were personawho cousidered
that thequestion could not be Carried, mien it was mute
a Government question, he was not responsible for it.—
They might, if they pleased, because be had said that he
considered the frautiug of such an Admisistration hope-
less, construe it into an expressed dei-pair of the success
of the ineesureitself. To this reasoning he opposed the
disavowal which lie had given this night, and the many
opinions which lie bad at different times sated, that this
question must make its wsy under any Government where
there was not a uniting principle to oppeseit.--(Cheers.)
But what be had pronounced the cause to be hopeless,
even under a Government tithed in its favcur, was impos-
sible. He thought the experiment of such an Administra-
tion unlikely to eucceill; but the qnestien on its own
merits was making way, and would make way, unless
it was checked by the proceedings of this night, which'
threatened it with its death-blow, if the 'accession was
carried to the extent which was threatened. Bei ts failure,
however, on the heads of the seceilers,—(Hear, hear.) he
was not responsible for it. As to his oon conduct, he
could only ray that, in or out of office, he had used his
best endeavours to promote this cense. I n ISI2, when he
was but a bumble ineividual, sod connected with no
party in the State, lie had the good fortune to bring for-
ward the question in this House, which etas tint carried
by a inajority. Last year, too, the motion it was Isis good
fortune to bring forward was upproved of by a majmiev
of this lipase. If, upon these occaelom, he was asked
what hopes he had, andavliettier he had any, that it would
pass the other House, he would reply, that his tiro mo-
tion was lost only by a small majority, though it was
moved by a man who was dot in Ohre, or connected with
the Administration—(Hear )—Why then should he tie.
spair of the success of a question which did not appeal to
the temporary topcs of the day, but wa grounded uo
the immutable principles of sound policy Sand which must,
therefore, eventually come to a prosperous issue? And
whether it succeeded or not, he (Mr. C.) would be consist-
ent with himself; ard.ohntever side a proposition for the
relief of the Catholics come from—whether it was for their
total or partial emancipation, he would ever give it his pub-
lic support, differing from the Honourable Baronet who
wool 4 not- give it his vote, unless at the price of certain
stipulations.—(ltear.) But after the 'demotion with
which the Hon. BMW's speech was received to-nigh., it
was idle to say that the hopes of success were not greatly
diminished. And though he should vote with his Right Hon.
Friend, many one else who brought the question forward,
yet he confessed, after whet he had heard, and the prepara-
tion for secession which he had witnessed, he conceived the
hopes of success to be so improbable, that leaving the blame
of the failure in the hands of the seceders, lie would advise
Ills Right lion. Friend to withdraw the motion, and not
expose himself to the chance of an almost certain defeat.—
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. TIERNEY rose to say, that lie was no party to
the designs charged against his side of the Home by tee
Right Hon. Gentleman. lie disclaimed all intention of
either marring the success of this question by throwing
obstacles in its way, or impeding its progress by seced-
ing from its support. Ile %hilted to stand acquitted of
such fearful responsibility. So far from hiving become
lukewarm in the cause, hie was ready to pledge himself,
in the words of the Right Hon. lien:tem:o, to give it his
feeble sapport,by whonisoever or when ever it was brought
forward.--(Hear.)—luring once convinced of the recti-
tude and justness of the-principle, he thought that no
difference of opinion amouirst those who were equally
friendly, or combinations amongst those opposed to it,
should induce Lim to swerve from the course which lie
conceived to be most essential to the prosperity and
honour of the British Empire. But whilst he Kalil thisl
,
lie concurred with the lion. Baronet in the
genera
tenour of his reasoning--tie believed that all remonahle
hopes of success were at an emu. Who the real authors
of this disappointment to the Catholics were, however,
let an impartial public judge. His Hon. Friend had
rightly said th it it was bet a mockery to call the atten-
tion of this House sear after year to the grievances tin-
der which the Catholics laboured, whilst at the same
time it was admitted that any chance of these grievances
being redressed was hopeless.—(hear!)--He (Mr. T.)
li,lievail that the Right lion. Gentleman had rightly
quoted the words used by him on the occasion alluded to
by the Hon. Baronet; but he (Mr. T.) was bound to say,
that the impression which they made upon his mind at
the time, was the same as that spoken to by his lion.
Friend. lie certainly understood the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen to say, that he despaired of the cause, unless an
Administratfon could be farmed friendly to it At least,
if these were not his exact words, this was the infereice
which they furnished. .
Mr. CANNING here SAM, across the table, that be did
not think sash an Adminiett talon absolutely necessary to
the success of the cause.
hlr. TIERNEY, in continuation, said, that whatever
form of words the Right lion. Gent. used, lie was at li-
berty to assume from the facts that the success of the
larelh.a was hopeless, unless under such a Government
as he had described. Let it he remembered that the ques-
tion upon which lie was now epeakinc was not new to
this Homo, or one of which the probability or improba-
bility of success was yet to be calcislateil. Since the year
Iffoa, when Mr. Fox first brought it for yard, it had been
made a serious matter of contest in this House; and after
en many failures, who could say that unless Government
adopted this cause, it had the smallest chance
here
Of the suecess of it here
in another
wasth littleerplace aosb?--.4,11:e
baectiese it had succeeded here be.
fore, bat be (Mr, T.) believed that henceforth-the Catho.

_ or calehlate witch @pop the friendly disposie
i3;iisri The Right Hon., Got. hash sail
,ssestit i ssi .e to frame an .4tiednaltration whe,
worrld be agreed upon toil question. lie (Mr. 7),
theught otherwise. This might have been true during the..
iste reign, bat let the Honselook at the atate of thing/Mir
',year peforelast, wistov tide pnhji*t art's brought forward.
It was then the beginning of a ue.v reigren, an
aid
ittwas ins-
pussiblelif sal thiiieiCn dice the greait erairriciiiiii
1 ant visible in the saithatints of public men upon this sub.
• et, at compared with. the preceding reign. ..Thelate.
King, without wiping, atty,diarespect tv ins memory,
was known to hate& milerlatned such rooted opinions—
such strong prejudice& if might to N. and to have
hail the bias of hie Mind ea warped by artful men upon
this subject, that he did net-hesitate to declare his rho- 1
lution, if both Houses pissed the measure, to tXerciser
privilege, however little lased In modern times, of OW g
his veto upon the Bill. Under such a Monarch all hopes
of success were of course visionary; and Gentlemerehuses
ever interested in the measure, were justified in keeping
their places, without making any particular stipulations.
Now, however, that difficulty was got over, and we had
upon the throne a man whose mind was open to conic-
tion on the subject, andwhose opinions were said;to 44
rather friendly than otherwise to it. At last rause a Par-
liasneut which ventured to view the matter in the same
friendy light, and mailer these ciremnatences then, wash
too much to say that the question was placed upon a fair"
footlpg of success? But let the House look at what fol-
lowed, and they would be enabled to judge who it wts
that rendered all Giese hopes, so fairly formed, visionary
and nugatory. The Right lion. Gentleman had profess-
ed himself the advocate of Catholic Emancipation. Fur
his splendid exertions in that cause, public awl private,
no WWI was more ready to offer an aelatiowleilgoieut thee
be.(alr.T). was. He was persuaded that the Right lion.
Gentleman bad, from his heart, lent all the *id of hie
powerful eloquence to promote the success', of that ques-
tion. Of the Attorney-tieneral for Ireland—if, afterwhat
passed a night or two ago—that Right lion. Gent. sr is
atilt in office, he was bound to say as much. Finer dis-
plays of the most splendid eloquence than had been re-
peatedly made by that Right Hue. hiewletnan in that
cause, had never been heard in this or any other place.
Nor should he forget the exerlions• of assealuee Right
Honourable Gentleman in office (Mr. Wynn),whose sup-
port he believed to hav, been dictated by the most lio-
n nimble awl just feelings. But this conduct could not
be persevered in consistent with other objects, which
were of greater moment to thess Gentlemen—they could
not keep out of office.—{Cheers.) Their exertions gra-
dually relaxed after a certain period, and the daises of
the Catholics. so urgent before, might have slept in obli-
vion, if the Attorney-tleneral for Ireland had nut cons-
ndtted himself to tar cause, by the conspicuous part
which he had previously taken in it. But why had nut
these Gentlemen a proper sense of their own importance,
and made their terms before they accepted office ? The
paucity of talent for which the a Iverassies of Catholic
emancipation were so remarkable, would have made them
lie courted at any price.—((fear.) When the occasion
demanded their services for the Ministry, Lord Liverpool
and another great lawyer—(a laugh)—were too disinter-
ested to interpose any private prejudices in an arrange-
ment which the necessities of the country seemed to de-
mand. Did the Right lion. Gentleman think he would
have been in his present place, it his services were not
wanted ?—(ilear.) Or was it, that an understanding
prevailed. when he left their councils before. that lie was
shortly to return, as if the Right lion. Gentleman could
say in the pastoral language of the poet—
" So sweetly she bade me adieu,
" I thought that she bade me return."
Coni.l it be doubted, but that with the splendid talents of
the Attorney-General for • Ireland, Ministers mould have
accepted of his cooperation at any price ? The crisis
was so pressing, that Levi Li %Trion') was willing to have
the assistance of the first talents of the country Upon any
terms. But what did these Gentlemen, who bad the
affair in their own hands do? . Without any stipulation
they entered upon office, and consented to co-operate with
men whose views were directly opposed to their senti-
ments on so important a question, and they were now
willing to lay the whole odium of its failure in a quarter
where it was not deserved.—(Hear.) Thus it appeared
to him that a strong case seas made out against Ali-
Waters, and that his Honourable Friend was war-
ranted in all he had said on this subject. If the Right
Hon. Gentlemen opposite haul taken the part which was
expected front them, the question would not be now upon
the principle, but up In the details, of concession. But 1
that was all lost now, and there was no longer any chance
of success for the measure. Why the Attorney-General
for Ireland should bring it forward, under existing cir-
cumstances, was more than he (Mr.T.) could understand.
When it was first announced that Lord Wellesley was go-
ing to Ireland as Lord Lieutenant, and that the Right
Hon. Gentleman was made Attorney-General, he (Mr. T.)
entertained strong hopes. that the Catholic cause would
he much enhancel by the change. The Rigtit Hon. Gen-
tleman knew that soon after the arrangement of the Mi-
nistry last year, he (Mr. T.) met and questioned him as to
the stipulations which he had made upon this subject.
He was surprised to find that none had been thoug''t of,
and that nothing substantial was gained but office.—
(Hear.) The question then was left to stand upon its own
merits. But it appeared to him most unwise to bring it
forward at this time. If it was true that the present state'
of Ireland rendered the discussion of the Attorney-Gene-1
ral's conduct unseasonable a few nights ago, surely the
subjection made much more strongly against the discussion
of a subject, which was in its nature c &elated to excite
irritation. Let the motion be successful or otherwise, in
either case the result would produce unpleasant conse-
quences. If it was successful, that party would be pro-
voked whose hostility seemed to be so much dreadcd ; and
if it failed, the great body of the Catholic people mast
feel that their interests have been trifled with, by ex; °ring
their claims to tertain rejection. At such a crisis, then,
lie could not think that man *a true friend to the cause,
who should bring it forward. The conduct of those who
openly opposed the measure was more honourable and
praiseworthy. Let Gentlemen say what they would, he
could not think those sincere in their support who were
chained to the chariot wheels of Lord Liverpool and the
Lord Chancellor. It wood be more manly with the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) to declate that the
passing of this measure would he injurious to the best 1
institutions of the country. That Right Hon. Gent. had
declared that he never would come to terms upon this
subject, though he acquitted him of making it the price
of any stipulations. 'l' he opportunity of making condi-
thins was now gone by. But the Right Hon. Gentleinaa
said he had a discretion to bring on this questtin; or to
withdraw his notice as he thought lit. He (Mr. T.)
wished to give no opinion upon what course should he
pursued. lie-would not say whether it was wise to trust
the question, under present circumstances, to the !louse ;
but if be declared his resolution of going on with it, lie
would give it all his suport.—(Hear.) In the event of a
division on the Bill, the course which he (Mr. T.) would
pursue, would be in accordance with the teeinions which
Ile had elwaysavowed, so that the Right lion.Gentleinan
was too precipitate in, charging every Member at that
side of thetionse with a design of abandoning the cause.
Cutler aoy circumstances he would give the cause his
support; and it the Bight Hon. Gentleman held out any
prospect of success. in the other House, the result nerd
not yet be despaired of. It had been said, that the mea-
sure was snaking progress. He (Mr. T.) rejoiced at ii,
but lie disapproved of the interruption whsicb it had suf-
fered during the last Session, and he feared for its
ultimate success in a new Parliament. He had no hesi-
tation in saying that he considered the Right lion. lien