The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-01 00:00:00

VIE STATESMAN.

objectionable, as with a diminished revenue, IA the ors
ruption and patronage incident to a large one were reH
tained. By adoring his (Mr. Moberly's) plan, on the,
contrary, a net saving of 350,0001. in the collection of the
revenue in this country, and 400,0001. in that of Irelands
would be saved : and if Cue proposition of the Han. Mem-
ber for Winchester was acted upon, a further saving of
200,0001. might be effected, by amalgamating the Malt
and Beer duties. Further reductions might also be made
in all the peace establishments of .the country to the
amount of 1,000,0001., making the whole redaction near
4,000,0001. Thus, by the operation of his plan, the sum
he had stated would be paid off in seven years, and there
would be in fact no loss to the revenue. for the total
amount lessened at the end of that time would be no
More than the compound interest of five millions a-year,
snpposing it to be let run on. The Hon. Member con-
cluded by proposing his Resolutions, (for which see
STA TESM Ax of VA. 22.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
think himself called upon to reply to the honourable
gentleman's statements at any great length. In various
parts of those statements concessions had been made,
tending much to weaken the boo. member's own argu-
ments. In his first resolution, he recognised th.- pro-
priety of keeping up a Sinking. Fund of five millions an-
nually, according to the principle laid down by Parlia-
ment in 1819.
Mr. MABERLY here, across the table, signified bis
dissent from the admissions to which the Right Hon.
Gentleman wished to pledge him.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that if his plan did not recognise the principle laid down
in 1819, it could not be entertained at all. He was bound
by the words of his' resolutions. In the second and
third, he admitted the existence of a real surplus of
7,000,0001. at this moment. Without, however, exam-
ining in detail all the resolutions, the only important
point for him to answer to, was the main principle laid
down in the three lest resolutions. These resolutions,
after stating in detail the principle of the pre.:eding
ones, went on to state that the plan which the Hon.
Member would propose, " by no means differed in its
substance from that which was adopted by the House
in the Resolutions of 1819—the essential attrihntes of
both plans being the maintenance of public credit by the
diminution of debt." This was the upshot of his pro-
position for a Sinking Fund—namely, that it was analo-
gous to the one recommended in 1819, and from these
mists lie drew a conclusion that 3.000,0001. of taxes
should be remitted to the public. N6w, as the sonnd-
ness of the conclusion was to be judged of by the tenth
of the premises, he (the Chancellor) hoped to be able to
show, that the twelfth preposition was false; for the plan
now submitted was not analogous to the recommendation
of 1819, and thus lie overturned the fabric, and showed
that the plan was wholly impracticable. The honour-
able member's argument was, that as the Sinking Fund
he now proposed, was the same as that recommended in
1819, it ought therefore to be adopted. If, then, the analo-
gy which it bore to the principle of that measure was its
strongest recommendation, he (the Chancellor) was at
a loss to see why the Hon. Member objected to his as-
suming that :iis plan admitted the necessity of a Sinking
Fund of five mullions. Surely, if one Sinking Fund
was to be substituted for another, professing to be in
principle the same, it was natural to suppose that the
reasons which rendered the first necessary, should still
be referred to. But the great objection which he (the
Chancellor) had to the lion. Member'i Sinking Fond
was, that it (lid not at all resemble that recommended by
Parliament in 1819, the principle of that and of all
other Sinking Funds being a reduction of debt, without
any corresponding diminution of meow., For it was
' avowed that the interest seeming palely from the sur-
plus of eremite over expenditure was not to be imme-
diately remitted to the people, but was Kobe left at the
discretion of Parliament, to be applied either to the fur-
ther reduction of debt, to meet the exigencies of the
State, or to the remission of taxation. • This discretion
as to the disposal of the surplus, the Honourable Mew'
'bee's plan would entirely take away. He would force
the house to diminish the Revenue by remitting taxes,
without at all extinguishing the debt, for according to the.
principles laid down in 1819, there could be no beneft-1
alai reduction of debt, if it was attended with a corres-
/lending diminution of Revenue. He wondered a gentle-'
Sian of the Hon. Member's strong mind could hare fat;
len into this fallacy. But it was a misnomer to
call his measure a redemption of the Land Tax.
At least, in point of relief. it could be shown
that the Revenue might be greatly 'diminished
without affording any relief to the public. He
could prove in a moment that it was not a redemption of
the Land Tax. Suppose a person had an estate for life
chargeable in 2001. a-year for hand Tax. Ile wished to
redeem that, borrowed a sum of money for the purpose,
and transferred stock, the interest of which was equal to
2001., to the account of the Commissioners, and 10 per
cent, more; what • was the consequence ? !lad not his
heirs a lien for ever upon the estate ; for the tax was per
petual, and the only difference was, that the tenant paid
the 2001. a-year in future to his heirs instead of the State.
Therefore the Revenue might be diminished without any
person tieing relieved from paying a farthing. But another
essential attribute of a Sinking Fund which thts had not,
Was that it should be certain and permanent. In contend-
ing for permanency, lie did not deny that there might not
sometimes happen a crisis in the state of cations in which
it would be impolitic to direct the Revenue of the State to
the support of such a fund. But these were extreme rases,
and upon the general principle, certainty was a necessary
attribute of a Sinking Fund. The plan of the hon.
Member was palpahly deficient in this respect. He
would extinguish forty millions of debt in seven years,
but at the end of that time there would be no sinking
fund at all. In all his resolutions there was note" word
about providing such a fund at the einfof seven note"
He left it all to chance, for when be had taken away the
taxes which composed it, where were the materials to be
foUnd for creating another ? 'The only hope held out
ea: the chance of an improvement in the revenue ari-
sing' from the remission of taxes. He, (the Chancellor)
trusted such a hope would not tern out fallacious, but at
present he thought a resource of that nature too vision-
ary to calculate upon. The house might be left to fish
in the ocean of Revenue, and it was doubtful whether
they drew a whale or a herring—(a laugh)—Then, un-
less lie was wrong in the idea which lie had formed of
the elemental principles of a Sinking Fund, he was
warranted in saying that the proposition was not only'
not the same as that laid down in 1819, but that it was
directly reverse.—(hear, hear, hear.)—The basis of his
argument thus fai'ing, the lion. Member's conclusion
was untenable, and there was no ground whatever for
the two subsequent resolutions. Bur even if be was cor-
rect in this par.icular, it was doubtful wh• thee the house
should adopt the bun. member's suggestion for raising mo-
ney by the means lie had suggested. He stated that it was
material to afford greater facilities to the operation of
this Act, assuming that the only obstacle to the success
of the immure, were the onerous conditions imposed
upon those wbo were disposal to redeem the tax. It
'eas certainly tree dist a smaller portion of this tax was,]
in fact, redeemed, than was tlllealated upon when the
measure is as proposed. But then it was material to look
at the eircumstancee under which the proposition was
first made. These circumstances were of a very peculiar
nature, and the country was in a *Road m entirely differ;
ent f,oin the present. In the first place, we were in the
mitille of a most expensive war, of which no one could
see the probable termination. Ministers w..re in the ha-
bit of making large loans yearly, and upon the most ru-
inous terms. These terms were aggravated by the state
of the Funds, which were very depressed, the 3 per cents

heleg to low as 48. The scheme` of raising money by
the redemption of this tax, was then broached, not in or-
der to relieve any particular class, but to raise the funds,
and enable Ministers to borrow upon better terms. Upon
this principle it was brought forward. But the particu-
lar in which that time differed from the present was
thin the funds were low, and the value of land improving
and there was a greater, inducement to advance money
upon landed, than funded security. (hear,) —The. case
was now reversed—the funds were now in a prosperous
state, the 3 per cents having risen from 48 to 73, whilst
the land had unfortunately much fallen in value. This
might account for the slow progress which had been
made in the redemption of this tax. The restrictions
imposed were not the only obstacles, and consequently
their removal would not. much enhance the succeseof this
measure. Besides, private parties derived an advantage
from these restrictions which it would be impolitic to
dispen.e with. He laid no stress upon this objection,
but it was as well to state how the law, as it existed, ap-
plied to-parties redeeming the Land 'fax. Although by
the original Act an option was left with the proprietors
of land smith regard to the redemption, yet to make
them come to terms, they were afterwards reduced to
the disagreeable alternative of buying up the tax, or
having a stranger—perhaps a person from 'Change-al-
ley come over their heads, and subs:itote himself in the
room of the State. Now, although it was desirable by
thus letting in it stranger to compel the proprietor to
come to terms, yet there was no reason whatever why
the stranger should have any
.peculiar advantages given
him. The law seemed to stew the filing in the same
light. To effect for the redeemers a sufficient se-
curity, it was first necessary to make the Land Tax per-
petual, which before had been voted from year :o year.
fben if a stranger was let in upon the same terms with
the proprietor, it was imposing upon this la:ter a great
burden for an indefinite portion of time. Mr. Pitt fed-
ing the force of this objection. obviated it by making
the price of redemption •20 per cent. to the stranger,
whit-Joke landowner could redeem at Rh Thr.. former
Act therefore avoided the hardship by not putting the
stranger and the landowner on the same footing, which
was entirely overlooked by the Hon. Member.
Mr. MA BERLY said, that by his plan, the lied-owner
had an advantage over the stranger, as an opportunity
was afforded him of redeeming, whenever he could raise
the money.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
tended, that this arrangement did not remove the objec-
tion of allowing the parties to redeem on the same hems. ,
It did not meet the hardship of the case, that after a
stranger bail been. suffered to come in over the land-
owner's head, this latter might have the privilege of buy-
ing back by an advance of o per cent. to the stranger.—
If it was ihardship to reduce the proprie'or to the ne-
cessity of redeeming a perpetnal tax, or submit to a
stranger being put in his place, that hardship was not re-
moved by his paying 5 per cent. for getting back his
land. But turflike the plan palatable. the bon. gentle-
man would raise those redeeming the tax to the rank of
Magistrates in counties ; and the avowed object of this
was to induce monied companies to speculate and dabble
in,the public revenue. Such an innovation, however,
upon the constitution of the Magistracy, he (the Chan-
cellor) hoped never to see carried into effect. He hoped
never to see persons, entire strangers to the Counties, and
without foot of, land in them, become members of their
Magistracy. For these reasons, then, and principally
because the plan was not in principle the same
for which it was to be substi.uted, and becuse the de-
Steucticia of this basis involved the fate of all the conch-
elusions, lie should give the motion his decided opposi-
tion. The Right Hon. gent. concluded by moving the
previous question upon all the Resolutions to the 12;11
and an entire negative upon that.
' Captain MABERLY confessed his embarrassment in
rising to answer the objections which had been raised to
Me motion of his hon. relative. Amid the arguments
used by the Right Hon. Gentleman, flowerer, he looked
%vain for any substantial objections. The very ground
upon which he placed his opposition appeared to bieti
Me. Maberly) to furnish the strongest argument for
the Motion, It was clear that Mr. Pitt's object was to
induce large companies to .• speculate and dabble in the
public revenue." to order to raise the funds, and su en-
able hint to borrow money on more advantageous terms.
But Mr. Phi's plan defeated itself by the overweening
care he took of the interests of the land proprietor ; fur,
-*bat stranger would redeem the Land Tax at 10 per
cent. whilst he could have funded security for his money
Upon much better terms. The plan assumed that if the
1,239,701/. yearly, %.Isiell was the remainder of the un-
redeemed Laud 'fax, was sold as he pointed out, the price
would redeem forty-two millions of debt in 39 years, I
Which was as much as the press tit Sinking Fund could
do io seven years of peace, and the five millions which
('composed the Sinking Fund would he saved yea'rly to the
public. With regard to the annihilation of the Sinking
Fond, the plan Intended only to dispense with it for se-,
yen years, but not to abolish it. In the present distressed
Istate of the country it might well be dispensed %%lilt for
i that period, but it coed be renewed again. And a
great advantage which the proposed Sinking Fund would
have over all others, was that of its inviolability—SW it
Could not be laid hands on by Ministers.-4 Hear.) This
was a security which none of the three last Sinking
Funds possessed. This Sinking Fund would be of such
a nature that Ministers could not raise loans upon it, and
Parliament not having the money in their bands would
be less disposed to sanction any profligate expenditure.
It would then he free from all the objections which had
been urged against former Sinking Funds, the existence
of which was not to much a subject of complaint, as
their being exposed to the inroads of Ministers. It
would also strengthen the hands of Government it: their
negotiations with Foreign States, as it would show that
ibis country had a prospect of being relieved from her
embarrassments. As therefore it possessed so many
advantages, and that no substantial argnments were
urged against it, he trusted that the proposition of
his Noble Relative would obtain tile sanction of the
House.
Mr. RICARDO said, that however much he might feel
disposed to concur with part of the propesition of the
Honourable Mover, yet he was obliged to say, that it did
not appear to him to be a desirable substitute for the
Sinking Fund. lie (Mr. 11.) was quite as desirous as
his Honourable Friend could be to relieve thenounzry
from the heavy debt which pressed upon it ; and though
the plan proposed was in sonic ineasnre adapted to ac-
complish such an end, yet it must be by applying it in a
very different way. If he had proposed that time pur-
chases should have bren so made as to equalize the tax,
and that cacti party should purchase on no other ground
than that which a mortgagee boson land, then he would
have Acquiesced ; but by ttic present plan, which was con-
siderably encunal-ered, a Receiver-General was to he ap-
pointed to receive the tax, and, in feet, it was only sub.
stiteting one sort of the debt for anotber.—(Hear.) He
had raised a new stock to be transferred in the same way
as the old, and one tax was put in the place of another.
I-he (Mr. IL) had spoken 3.) often on the subject, that
the Louse was well aware of his great anxiety to get rid
of the debt; and if the Honourable Gentleman had pro-
posed merely that all classes of persons should be allowed
to purchase the Land Tax without the interference of the
Government, then a considerable amount of debt would
have bren caecelled. One objection of the Right Hon.
the Chancellor of the Eechever did not appear to flint
to possess the weight which the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had attributed to it, which was, the great hard-
ship that a stranger would be enabled to place himself
on the seine footing with a proprietor. if the Land 'f ax
could thereby be redeemed he should have no objection

to this equality. With regard to the Sinkinwgial7.llabnudict,ono;tet
did not perceive that the proposition of his Hon Felted
s
was totally unconnected with it. Indeed the Chancellor
of the Excheyner might say that the plea
plan, and that lie was not unwilling to adopt t
as a substitute for the Sinking Fund. He himself was
very ready to vote a remission of taxes to the meant of
the Sinking Fund, but not for a larger aunt than the
Sinking Fund. That amount was never more than the
surplus of revenue beyond expenditure. If the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, with the candour which belonged
to hir., were to ask for a sum of 5,000,0001. he could ob-
tain it only by borrowing from the public en the
one hand, or taking from the Sinking Fund on the
other.—(Hear, hear) The one male Would inirease
the debt, the other would diminish the surplus reve-
nue. He was therefore favourable to a remissi n of
taxes to the amount of 5,000,0001: not but what he
thought that, by great economy on the part of govern-
ment, they would allow 7.000,0(x0; but he was afraid
that with all their professiona of economy, telianre
ciente) could not he plated upon them, to warrant the
additional remission of 200,00 m. Ministers told th
house they had a surplus us 7,000,00014 and if the
house voted a remission of taxes fo that amount, then
they would spy they were rot Mound to be more ecose-
micel than they were at present, because the house had •
taken away the whole of their surplus. Although 51r.
Pitt, after establishing the Sinking Fund, had, during
his life, under the pressure of the war, increased Use
debt more than the Sinking Fund paid off, yet in every
loan that he made there was always some provision for
its payment.—(hear, hear!) No doubt the expences
of the war, hail forced hint to borers more than was re•
deemed by the Sinking Fund, ye: a hen peace arrived.
the country with' have been in podiession of an efficient
Sinking Fund (hear!). If the s3s;etn had been adhered
to in peace which the Government pursued during the
war, he (Mr. Ricardo) wallet have he:'n the lase to
raise his voice against it. In the year 16/3, however,
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken away
5,000,0001, annually from the Sinking Fun I (hear) ) This
violent measure he acroinpan'ed with the ringular as-
sertion that he should be able to par oil the debt in a
shorter time without the e,000,0601. than with theta
(hear.) He accompanied this act of spo'iation with very
magnificent promises, none of which had been perforinee.
But this was quite a trifle compared n ith some of the
subsequent attacks on the Sinking Fund. Instead of
providing means for wiping off the interest, it was se-
fered to increase at a compound ra'e, and then the Chau-
cellor of the Et:chewier came down and said, though
there were 15,000,6001. before, yet throneh my expenesi•
cure I leave left a deficiency of 1500,0410 e (4 laugh.)
But the Cdancellor of the Exchequer %%odd not dare to
come down, year etre year, and take 12 or 15,060,06e1.
unless they found a subservient Parliament to upleula
Omen (hear, hear.) The Sinking Fund would again go
on increasing at compound interest, and after it arrived
at 9 or 10,000,0001. some future Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would have the audacity to appropriate it to his own
use (hear, hear.) All Ministers were alike; and if
they were to consider the Sinking Fund in the light in
which it lead been recently curt-idered, it would be much
better for them to set it esideentirely. The object of the
Sinking Fund was to pay the debt, and teething else.
He would exemplify the nature of the Sinking Fund by
a familiar example: Suppose a private individual had All
estate of 10001. a-year, and found it necessary to borrow
10,0001. agreeing wita his tretlitres to set a part 5001.
a-year of his income to pay the debt. Suppose thee thef
his steward tens him that if he will consent to live on
4001. a-vear and give bum the other 1001. he would be
enabditi, in a mach shorter ee. lad, to pay off the debt.
Ile t•onsents, and living on 4001. s-year be pays 6001. to
his creditor and his treevard. The first year the she ant
pays his creditor the 1001., which leaves the debt 9,91101.
and reduces the interest to 4951., but he continues to pay
6001. a-year, and the next year the steward pays 1051..
ard continues in the same proportion from year to year.
At the end of a certain number of years half the debt is
reduced, %Lich leaves 2501. still anottally to be paid to
the creditor and 1001. to the stets ard. The steward for
'erne purpose of his own, with or without the knowledge
of his master, borrows the sun) of 7000 L which swallows
up the whole of the 3501. per annum that had been ap-
propriated to pay the interest and diminish the seool.
still due of the original debt [hear, hear, hear!). And
what is the situation of the borroeer ? tweeted of bring
relieved from the debt he is involved to the amount of
P 2,0001.-2,0001. more than he orieinelly I•orrowed, ard
Lis own Sinking Fund besides [hear, hew, hear I]. The
Honourable Member said, in leis conscience he believed
that the amount of the debt would not have been nearly
so great as at present, if Sir. Pitt bad lived [hear, hear,
hear !], because he always piovi•:e4l for expenditure, and
at the end of the war mould terve had an efficieet Sinking
Fund. He bad begun to despair of ever 'Breit, gate et
Sinking Fund, an I therefore was ready he suppert his
Honourable Friend if be would limit his motion, for the
remission of taxes to fire tnitions; seven was. in his opi-
Men, cosiderably beyond the proper mark. Ile hoptil
that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer would cmee
down and move the repeal of the Resolution which lead
been passed with respect to the Sinking Fund last yea..
The course which became hint to pursue as a Statesman
was a direct, and not a rounnabout way [hear !].
Mr. BAILING said that he considered the present
proposition to be one of the slightest bubbles ever Weer,
as far as it was meant as a sulatitnte for the Sinkinglourd.
It was the duty of the Government of a great country, as
it was of every prudent individual, so to conduct their af-
fairs that a surplus should be left at the end of time year.
In the instance of a Government, hetteser, there wera
emergencies to which indivilttals were not liahle—the
uncertainties of war and prace, and a variety of unfore-
seen calls, which rendered it still more necessary that
the country should have some surplus to meet them (hear,
hear !) As to the plan which bad been proposed to the
house, it was not necessary to enter much into details,
as its defects had been exposed by the Chancellor of the.
Excbetkuer and the Honourable Member for Portarlin,e-
ton. 'I here was, in fact, no foundation at all few the
measure. The proposition to tape away 7,001,0001. reel
substitute 1;200,0001. per. annum, was en rite very (ate
of it, fallacious. The times lied pissed when the finan-
cial Weirs were to be managed by conjuring (bear!)
The proposition of the lion. Member was just as lean-
ble as that of putting a man into a quart bottle. The
very sight of the tieures welled sufficiently expose tee
impracticability of the proposition. At the end of seven
years there would be no Sinking Fund at all, and there
would be at the last year 100,0001. less of disposable
income ('‘ No, no!" from Mr. Mihaly). At least it ap-
peared so to him. The subj-ct itself Was one of the great-
est moment, whether the country should have a suree's
revenue or a bare revenue, and whether the vet
was to be reduced in a time of peaces, which lie
thought would materially affect the destinies of the
country. In fact, no more important geodes
could he considered by that house.—What tee Ho-
nourable Member offered in contradiction to Mr.
Pitt's Sinking Fend • as, that its principle had not been
rigidly obserted, and that was with bine a reason for not
admieting any surplus at all. If there were a surplus
he (Mr. alabcrly) was quite certain some Minister or
other would take it away, am! th •refore be ass rewired
to take it away himself (hear, and a laugh !). This was
like the argument wince, the Frenchman noel to a lady,
when he told her that the best !node of avoiding tempts-
don was to yield to it (a 'neigh). The I,,,itoarshle
member was of opinion that the country could have a
surplus reienue, but chat i: would not lush:: virioe
keep it. But he (Mr. B.) was sure, such were the fin-
ances of the country, as they had been c!oqueetly

Id by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that a surplus
revenue was not only obtained, but such confidence
might be placed in the steadiness and good sense et
the House, that they would have the virtue and the re-
solution to keep it. He wished Gentlemen to consider
what ',would be the situation of the country without
such a surplus. How would casual expences and the
necessary demands of sudden emergencies be supplied
It was a reason with him for the support of a Sinking
Fund, that be thought it applicable to the wants arising
from peculiar circumstances, which would not be other-
wise so nudely provided for. There might he exigencies
of six nten•hs or twelve months duration, in which the
linking Fund would meet the crisis without the 'feces-
siry fur a loan; and such exigencies occurred in all
countries. Ile conceived such an application to be the
use, and not time abuse of the Funding System. That it
'night be abused there was no doubt; but its legitimate
time was to make boasts to inert casual circumstances, re-
deemable by an application of the surplus of revenneoves
expenditure. The great advantage was, that such a surplus
enabled the State to meet difficult circumstances without
laying on additional taxes, until it were ascertained
whether they should be permanent or not (hear, hear !)
Nothing could be more Injurious than to lay on taxes one
year and repeal them another; it was a course inconsist-
ent and unit tse. He might adduce a strong exemphifica-
lien of his argument in the case of France. That coun-
ley loud now a Sinking Fund of SO millions of fnmes, or
about flue sterliog, which was properly applied
to the reduction of debt. The consequence was, that if
France were called oo for a military demonstration (he
dirt not wake any inviduous allusion but only by way of
argument), she could call for 100 millions of franc., and
in mum-gm nee the casual demands upon her would be sa-
tisfied; and whether that was obtained by borrowing
from the sinking fund, or be loans an I payment made
from the s trplus, was a question of very little importance
Imecauee in either nay the relief was in the existence and
'the application of the Sinking Fund. Let gentlemen also
look to America; that country, with which we had lately
peen at war, and with which we night be so again.—
.America had established a Sinking Fund, and et as making
rapid strides towards the redaction of debt, which placed
her credit on such a foundation as would be of signal
edeantage to her in case of new emergencies. The Em-
peror of Russia had also condescended to copy our sys-
tem of finance, and had established a Sinking Fund,
which, he believed, was fairly and honestly applie I. lie
adverted to those instances telly with the view of poin•ing
out the aderetage which the greatest Powers of Europe,
as well as the first State on the new Continent derived
from acting on this principle ; and he would ask, was this
country to deprive itself of the beneficial system which
the others cop;e11 from her, or could she do so with-
wet
descending from her high and pre.eminent station
itt the weal, and becoming- dependent, like the King
ef Ftence, of whom it was said that he must march
l'ito Spain, or somebohv else would march over him ?
This was note que-mina between the fundholder and the
1 ael °eller ; but the plan of the hon. meinter was cal-
culated to raise the funds for the first year. He (Mr. ii.)
did rot krow what good that would do to the coantre. He
it it was not any question between the 'dealer
in stock and the pro?rietor of lands. The question be.
fine Gentlemen of that House was, whether they would
eunsolt for particularioterests. or take the views of states-
Men. and place the fitsances of the country upon a proper
basis? It this were not done, he should like to bear
from the Ilononreble Member for Porta lingten how the
country was to act effectively without a surplus revenue?
He would be Alad to know what would be the situation
ofethe conntry without credit? He believed it would he
like the state of France at the time of the restoration of
she Bourbon', or like that of the poor and unfortunate
Spain, whose liberties were likely to fall under the op-
pression of the powers of Europe, on account of her
want of public credit. The consequences of the want of
credit to England herself at no very distant period, muss
be known to the Honourable Member. He could not be
norant of the time when Exchequer Bills, Victu tiling
Pill:, and all her floating debt was at discount. A coun-
try
in such a state must do what tradesmen are obliged
tai resort to who have imperfect credit. She must pay
half as much again as if her credit were good: but, as
the credit of th;s country now stands, it is the interest of
every body to deal with Government, and-therefore alt
engagements are made on the most a Ivarrageons terms
4., the public.—He ttati, therefore, most anxious th it Gen-
tlemen should consider this question not lightly, but in-
sesriga!e it closely and beer in mind the state of the
country at a former period when its credit was low, and
Also the state of other Powers, as the effect of their finan-
cial plans, and they would then pause befne they with-
drew that prop of public credit Loin the State which
would reduce the empire to the most abject condition. He
es idled to say a word mare with respect to what had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Portarlington, coupled
with something said by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen.
The opinion of the former Gentleman (Mr. Ricardo) he
knew was a farcutite opinion of his. It deinonstra-ed '
how great was his ingenuity, and hom little he
applied that ingenuity to practical purposes (hear,
bear, hear.) That Honourable Member proposed to get
• rid of the debt by a general adjuettnent of property, as if
it were possible to make any adjustment between the debts
and property of this country. It was a thing quite im-
practicable. The same observation might be applied to
the opinion of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. He had
brought forward Resolutions, in which there was much
w;re calculation for persons curious in such matters. He
(Mr. Hume) stated, that in the last war six millions ad-
ditional taxes, instead of borrowing, would
.have saved
thewhole debt; that was altogether visionary.—(Hear,
bear.)—How could we start at once from a taxation of
sixteen millions before the year 92 to 60, which was
ahlent the extreme taxation of the war, and then put six
additional, without a revolntion of all the inter-
ests of the country ? The Honourable Member stated
what might be arithmetically true, but what was practi-
cally false.—(Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that
. there was a great abuse of the funding system during the
war, brit it Was in the Addington Adminstration, which
he by no means gererally admired. that those masses of
wee mere laid on which enabled the country to prose.
rive the war with vigour and success. But as to the ad-
eitionel taxation proposed by the one hon. member, and
the adjustment of property suggested by the other, he
must ass• rt, that however specious in theory, or valid in
ahstractralculation, they were totally inapplicable to any
practical object.—(hear, hear.)
Mr. TIERNEY commenced by observing, that the
question was of so important a nature, that he was sure
the house would pardon him if be wade a few observe-
Vona upon it; be could assure his Honourable Friend
(Mr. Haring), that he did not view the subject
hen attached as much %%eight and consideration to it as
the Honourable Member himself could porsibly do.—
( (leers beer) lle 'A as convinced, that he wal as deeply
impressed with a sense of the interest and extent of time
rostion as any Wan who meddled with financial sub-
jects. But what was the real question? He knew it
»as tithing 'else than stilettosr five millions acre to be
taken from the taxes of the country or not.—(lleac,
beer.) He !whiled such an inducement had been offered
to the house as at least would incline it tes listen whether
a Sialdog Fuml of five millions was to be anpported, or
a reduction of taxes to that amount Ile (Mr. T.) mould
oithoot fear Of eontrediction from the of test Mem-
bers of the house, th st no one had been a more consistent
Mesa SW rise pNic of Mr. Pitt's Sinking Fund than him-
self; bat he had often warned the house of the I 'vista
. expellee of that Minister, tinder which no plan of a Sink-
vg Fund could be carried into a beneficial effect.— (He ;v.
af.) Though he sepported the original principle cat