The Statesman.
London, England, 1813-02-23 00:00:00

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Rolls, thoogh his salary wassuperiora to that of this.;tbe gem ; *he professeithimself to hove no pkg.',
Last officer. „Neal kaowl24l the Court of ChanCeryi bid,
Mr. ABERCROM BY suggested, that it was not 4fter hating his reputation that the expedient
intended that the Vice-Chancellor should have a ,lefere them vranldbe successful, come forward that
seat in the House of Commons, the safest course to ulgbto and after simatiug with fell confidence.
I pursue, would be to insert a statist in the Bill to this a Points .of practice' in the ^ Court of Chao.
purpose. The Statute of Anne, and' that .of Geo. y proceeded 14. a. speech full of 'urea*
11. might be supposed at first sight to suffice., But • a els. The allusion to the Honours* end
in this last Statute-it win sdecified, that the disability friorntld Chalrelau of the Cominittee, they must-us-
should not be extended. to offices held for Mar &Mead as beleg devoid of sarcasm, notwithstanding
during some good behaviour. • In the statute• by the toile' and manner of the Unused Gentleman (Sir
which the Commissioners of .Accounts wero appoint. W. Garrow). He had as much respect as any one for
ed, they were excluded from sitting in that Howe by the Master of the Rolls, but notwithstanding all the
a special clause ; and as the intention of the LegEsia. lammitation which they had, heard for the.absencte of
ture was at present undoubted, lie Suppoied there jhat Learned Judge, which lamentation, no cloubt,..
could be no objection, in order to obviate future would besenewed to the full, in the case of any one
doubts, to insert the clause he proposed. appointed to the Office of Vice,Chaneellor, he (Mr.
Mr. ROSE said, that there could be no' objection W.) thought it expedient, that net only the Master
to what the Honourable Member proposed, had not of the Rolls, but the Masters in Chancery, and the
the Act of Anne been amply sufficient. The words Welch Judges, should be excluded from the Boatel
were, that no one, holding any newly-created office I although, no doubt, Sir W. Grant had made a great
of emolument, should be held qualified to sit in the I' display of talent in thlt House and even risen to his
House of Commons. . I high office by that means.---plo! from Me Mai-
Mr. CANNING said, that agreeing as he did ' sterial sirk.l—This WO .the first time he (Mr. W.)
with the Hon. Bart. opposite (Sir F. Flood), that the ' had heard. the fact disclaimed. The question should
Bill had come out of the Committee in many aspects.! not he considered peesenally es the Master of the'
as it went into it, and not agreeing with that Hoe. Rolls, but as the Officer in general, when appointed et
Bart. that it had received one important amendment, ' a proper time of life. The only imputation- he had
he (Mr. C.) should vote, as would not that Hon.: heard on the Muter the Rolls, was that-brought
Bart. (Sir F. Flood), against the third reading. The , forward by an Mono ble and. Learned Gentleman
1 Bill had come out of the Committee with all the de- : (Kr. Step en), on a f rreer night; who bed stated
1 feces with which it went into it, but he should re. ' that that Judge woo not %it* the, pit from a
1 serve,to anotheelesportunity the-injections he should i Pelitkid pique against the Admitdatiadou, ati Ate I
have tomaketwevery part of the Bill,and especially , formed an additional `reason that the Metter of the'
to those whichlad been discussed hi the Committee. 'Rolls should not have a feat In Parliament, where :
If the amendment which had been proposed, that the ,he was exposed to political partialities. The Master '
Chancellor shohld be divested of his jurisdiction over of the Rolls would not permanently have, this ad.
bankruptcy causes, were brought forward, it Should ditional business, as much of the pressure arose from_
' have his hearty concurrence; and to the Bill- with the circumstance, that the Chancellor, through an
out 'such an amendment, he must entirely object. anxious desire to do strict justice, did nothing. - Al
Auther amendment which had been suggested, pod ! other opportunities would offer for speaking 'on *the ;
of which he also approved, was, that as the evil to . principle of the Bill, he should only say one word as
be remedied was temporary, the remedy should be ' to the harmony always supposed by the Solicitor-Ge-
temporary also. 1 neral to exist in the Court of Chancery. There were
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR proposed that the 'Law , instances, such as the case of Lord Thurlow, and
Officers of the Crow ii should consult, whether, with I Lord Alvanley, where the Chancellor conceived the
a view to remedy'the pressure of business in Chin, I greatest contempt for the Master of the Rolls, and
cery, some of the Chancellor's functions might not I would never suffer that Judge to sit for him. If such
be separated with advantage from that office? .. It prejudiced Chancellor existed hereafter, a Vice.
Mr. LOCKHART wished to know in what ratan..! Chancellor, though endowed with all the learning
nor it was to be determined what causes the Vice-I and all the talents; forensic and parliamentary, of
Chancellor should hear; whether a commission was 1 the Solicitor-General, might be reduced to a sine-
to be issued to this Officer from the Great Seall, or ' curist. He might strut about with his train-beam
whether any order to hear this or that class of causes, `and his secretary—great at a levee, or any where
or whether a ftesh order wars to be issued in the case ; else—but in the Court of Chancery worse than no.
of every cause? It. wooid be satisfactory to the per. I thing.
sons the fate of *hose property was to be. deter. I Lord CACTLEREA.GH thought, the nothing in
mined by this Officer, to know whether he had by ! his Hon. and Learned Friend's (Sir W. Garrow)
law a right to entertain jurisdiction in their cases. ! speech justified the attack the Honourable Gentle.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that the : man had made on him. The characteristic of w..at
mode of determining what causes were to be heard : he had said on a former night, and what he had that
by the Viee.Chancellor would be by orders issued ' night repotted was, that it had all the weight of ar.
from time to time by the Chancellor,' Keeper, or the gument, and was stated in an inoffensive manner..-
Commissioners bolding the Great Seal. As to'the in- He could not be accused of arrogance, as he had been
decency which was said to be apprehended from' the I challenged as a Lawyer to come forward, and had
subordinate condition in which the Vice-Chancellor I done so accordingly. In answer to an objection
would be placed with respect to the Chancelliw, ; which had been urged with respect to the possible
when it was said he might be interrupted by the abuse of the authority to be given by this 13111, he
Chancellor's bell, what was the case at present when would observe, that the Lord Chancellor might nom,
a Judge and two Masters in Chancery sat for the as the law at present existed, come into Court, and
Lord Chancellor ? They proceeded to hear such take any cause out of the hands of the Master
causes as might be dispatched within the time of the Rolls, even after it had commenced.—
during which it was probable they would sit.— This consequence, improbable and unheard-of
This would be the case with the Vice-Chancel- as it was, might be expected to happen if we
for. The Chancellor would discover what was the were to argue from the abuse of the law and
I most convenient manner of conducting the business, not the use of it. The differsnt plaits which had
' and signify it to the Vice-Chancellor; and from the been proposed to be substituted for the present Bill
harmonious manner in which business was con: were a sort of contre-projets which operated the one
ducted in Chancery, no evil was to be appre- as a complete negative upon the other. One Ho-
handed from this mode. of proceeding. He had never nourable Gentleman opposite had this night distinctly
pledged himself to propose any amendments in the stated his conviction that the erecting the bankrupt-
i Committee, but he had said thist any objections cies into a separate department would create much
I against the Bill might be remedied there. As some- difficulty and conflation. He himself thought that the
. thing must be done to remedy the existing evil, what same interruption and confusion would necesarily
had been proposed instead of this Bill ? To take a follow from overloading the Master of the Rolls,
Judge, of whose integrity and talents enough could with all the arrears in the Court of Chaucer), and •
not be said in praise, and load him with all this ad- separating lam from'a •Court where he had so long
ditional business • and this, though that Honourable presided with honour to himself and satisfaction to
person had stated to his constituents that the prey. this as well a- to foreign countries. He totally dig.
I sure of his ordinary business was such as to compel approved of' that complexity of nsovoment and judicial
him to abandon. the piccalilli( duties of representing machinery by which it had been proposed to transfer
i his native county' in that House. A certain the Judges from Court to COurt, and to supply the
number of juridical days were marked out with- abience of one from his proper sphere by the soccesire i
mathematical accuracy, and were to be imposed on removal of others out of theirs. He did not believe that I
the Master of the Rolls, although that Officer had the great and excellent character who had been so
! been begged, by the' Gentlemen of the profession often referred to would ever stand in the way of I
attending his Court, to desist from even his ordinary any advantage to his country, but he conceived that'
sitting v . lest his valuable life might be etelangered. lin case of any such arrangement being adopted; it
0
FThe question was riot of willingness or unwilling- , Would be absolutely necessary for him to retire from !
netts, but of personal capacity to perform such adds- ' the high situation which he now filled.' It was not I
ilk's's' datx.-Bmiit seuseld-the duties would octbe i historically.. true, that she Maass of-the anils.awed
imposed Without additional. emolument. Was it a'l his elevation to the talents which he bed displayed in
compliment to this Judge, who had' declined the' that House; he owed it chiefly and originally to the
most grateful .duties, to say to him, that he. must; distinction which he had obtained in the Court of
I now come forward and play the part of Scrub or' Chancery, and at the Bar of the Rouse of Lords.
I Meng°. An Honourable and Learned Gentleman IHe must enter his protest against any measure which!
1 (Mr. M. A. Taylor) whom the House would set [ proceeded on the supposition that the evil to be reme. I
have forgot to have been.the Chairman of the Com- ; died was a temporary evil. Even if a tempocaree!
ntittee to enquire into the Chancery delays (even had ! office were in this view treated for the purpose, no
he not himself informed them of it), had looked on i eminent professional man would accept of it, unless
this scheme as visionary, though he disliked the pre+ !itn condition of the continuance of the salary after
sent Bill. The Judges in Westminster Hall were is i his services had ceased. Why, then throw a charac-
burthetied with business, that no assistance could be I ter of doubt and disrespect upon the office without
expected from them. As to the sending,the. Chief laity advantage to result from it ? It would be at all 1
Baron of the Exchequer to the Cock-pit, no Coed, ; times in the power of Parliament to annul the office, 1
I
it was well known, could exist without its head—sot, if found unnecessary, as they had created it.
even a Bench of Justices, as any Gentlemen oppo- 1 • Mr. STEPHEN stated,. that he should not have. ,I
site, who happened to be Chairman of one, might ' risen, but for the notice *Webbed been taken of an
know. The Courts of Westminster consisted con + , allysion made by him on .a former night, to the cause 1
stitutionally'of four Judges, and It would be' a disc' of the Master of the Rolls withdrawing hiMself
revery of that night, if it we; fOlind. that they could front the Cock-pit. He conceived that no impUtation
go on with three. ' I was implied in the statement he had made, which,
Mr. TAYLOR explained. He had not laid any i however, was founded only 'on common rumour...-.
stress on 14s having been.Chaitmen of the Committee, i His attendance these efts nevelt-1g his.hfficied duty,
but lisd merely mhtioned it incidentillY. I it was perfectly gnaultooe„end he was at liberty to
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL e,sptained,. that ' continue Or discontinue Was he saw proper.'
hp had only-mentioned that the •Hon. Gent. was i Mr. WIIITIIREADditt not know anything more
Chaittium of the Cheimittee to his honour. • • ' -I pf the tianeac. lien than he had leirned from the in,
Mr. WiIITBIcItAD said, that dering hie whole' formation of thq Limed Member. Bat. he had;
parliamentary life, blur 'weer witnesied such ,an I staled that the Muter of tht Rolle. had been ill.
bitten** of rapid growth' as they' had seen that night. ! bested by the kiwistry• of 11/00. apqattail ha. had
The infant of this day week had become a giant that j Ewen opposed Ist ii County Elevation, be Sad, it seems;
diy. ' 'The Hon. 'and. Learned Gentleman Or W. ' 'Wired from the. Cook • Col of political. pique anti
Gam:4N who'but a 'week aps was so dinitlettti Oulu .'. Mr`;. 140. dilk_gist. attach m
4
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that 4 could mercely venture to ebtradeitiinself oil ; to flat aged pry • 1 hellieughl that if tins,li

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NB'S led le cens-6—are-on thecondaetelt
chi ll~aster of the
Roils.' • .
Sir SANIUMROMILLY:whiiii 4'4:k-14;16i
,the Bill, which he *as "noble to do from the Bi
li
Itself, without the assistance of th •in f
to twraisnhsfedertlicabetisesinfoletrateddo, wwatieftohrer elliteWalliinfeDditdaster
moo rimed it
• the Rout toilte.Vice-Chancellor; itabo
.16 transferred, it would create consiireiati- disietils:-
./aotion, and a multiplication of busbies, by COll
appeals; if it were not intended so totnursfer *ern.
all the causes would be set down ber6re 'We 'Matti' •
of the Rolls. He "A/modelled how Geationen
who had professed on a forme night to be satis.
Bed, not with what the Bill was, but with what
dootfifecatibottaretletards.ooolAasyme.
it might be, should -tows! their app tier
same
mentusaidsin:inierfoeetasasiteltthoratilwawaochnotrisadniTecatisiloionnseirs,t4YandheolitGmheutisfsreilli.
'.4
it
bid
bien
thastfuth:ttlf, satdagtele,
dome but the Vice-Chancellor was still to proceeff tc
time to time direct.
could stet ipossaibirbe-srired from 'their Courts to •
assist SOChisiscellor. Us
that in -la4 Trinity Term, three Judies bad *sit 'with •
the Chassellor for teem demi-oil the will of Mr.
Wilkiesoo. This foinseditt Wit oi mreeption to
the ebriete impossibility stated: The objections' to:
the westraditei and essomfal. It tade
• an a in the logal constitsitloatof the country;
sod it would hereafter be recorded, that.lo my Lord
lisnq OR R kid P4ssitk_ TVs* halide it impos.
SMiloy eileto rise to *ft% honours Of-the
oStesslirn and open path of Ms duty. It:
Was not just to sarthat no other.remedy had been •
suggested. Several expedients bad been proposed,
among others to-enable tht.Lords to heacappeals in
tbe.gbie9ce of , the chancellor ; of which no notice
.ivad been taken. Yet why Should not the other
House, be competent ta do this, assisted by one of •
tht Noble and Learried Lords who had held the seals
either of England or Ireland ? The same course had
been More than once adopted in the time of Lord
Mansfield ; and Lord Bathurst bad sat for - Lord •
Thurlow. As to the observation which bad been
made on the increase of business from the Irish ap-
peak, it was to be remembered, that before 1782,
appeals from that country were tried here as at pre-,
sent, and that 'it yids only' from 1782 to 1800 that
there was a suspension of the ordivary and establish.
ecteoiiree of justice.
. Mr. WEATH ERALL replied at. soma length to
Sir Samuel Hominy.
Mr. PRESTON
.took the same line of argument
with the last speaker. '
Mi. PONSONBY, in answer to thealleged ano-
maly in English law of creating a Judge without
appeal, observed, that in matters of bankruptcy
there was at present no appeal. [Hear, hear
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Wes.
thirst') seemed terrified at the consequences which
would result from the appointment of a Judge for
the separate causes of bankruptcy. In the Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman's opinion this would
produce a. narrowness of view is, the person who
should he appointed -to this bench, which
would • render him tomtit for the . It was the
first time' he lied ever beard
,ehat the division of
labour made the labourer -more inetcpert.—iHeorn
But would not the advisers of the Crown a vise the
appointment of the fittest person for the office ?-11-
bad been said, that the separation of the bankruptcy
causes would not afford a sufficient relief to. the Lord
Chencellor. Did not the bankruptey causes consti.
tote I.4th of the Chancery busihesi?.--The Chan.
cellor who should be left with 3.4tirevof the present
business, and should be unable to „ftaecuse it. • was
• very unit to hold that situatiost. .An Hon. and
Learned Geneleinau not, in. hii place (Mr. Stepben),
bad .been at once "the a=ccuser and esculpator of the
Master .of the Rolls. He knew not why that
Honourable and Learned Gentleman had thought.
fit to become the- accuser of that racked cherac-
j ter, or • whether it wet. by his *permission. that be
had. become his defender. Did the Honourable and
• Learned Gentleman- think that .it was a fortunate
defenCe for the Master of the Rolls that he -1,1
withdrawn himself from the decision Of ceases at the
Cook-pit' because tut opponent of, his, at a comity
electionlhad received. some support from Ministers?
He thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ougpc
to consider some time before he appeared again in t*
chiracteC of it defender. He could see no objection
from the
;10terettes'ese?"1.arantioen Bankruptcytaokftngaway part
causest)fe
lot's emoluments was no ohjection,Jor the Cnancol.
doe ought to be liberally paid, and consequently com•
pensated foe any loss.. This was .00 part of the or.
dinary.Chancery. business; but soperinduced a few
=ago because the Legislature dii! not know whit
.
;Mr.I3RAGGI-BATITURSt said; if an anomaly
, were to be allowed 'to exist, as in the case of Beak.
ruptcy causes, it ought not to exist in a sabordinate
oificett but in a person eiothed with the highest
dignity.
The question was then pot, and-the -Amendment
• negativ'ed, The Report wet thee agreed tu, the
Mitt, with its Amendinenta, ordered. to be engrossed,
land the.'thirel reading appointed to take place on
Tuesday- next.
.'The Report of the Committee of Supply of Fri
day was brought up and agreed to.
Sir. B. ilobhouse and Mr. Sheldon, who were re.
t ported. to be in the custody of the Serjeant, igiembly
to OM Qrder of the Hoube, were ordered to be dia.
charged, paylug'their fees.
The Report of the • Starch Bill was agreed to,
land the Hill ordered to be read & third time to-
morrow. . •
Is'• FIRE ARMS. .;
Slr JAMES•SHAW obtained lea,* to bring in a
Bill compelling. Manufacturers of Fire Arms..to
mark -upon the guns and other articles manufac-
tared by them; their names and places of abode.
He immediately bniqgitt up the bill, which was
read a first time, and ordered. to be void a second time
this day se'nnight, and -to be printeffes-Adjoorned.

swonweawimingrns*
Some anxiety prevails for intelligence of the sato
arrival, M Lisbon, °fibs 10th 'Regiment of gaolers,
advice having 'been received at the' War Met, by
letters, dated. the Bth instant, of the transports Mu-
cling arrived in the Tagus with the troop% of another
r carpi ',cavalry, which sailedYeur days after the 10th.