The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

1101:11E OF COMMONS.

The Dysart Ferry Bill ryas read a second time.
CATHOLIC CL ‘I MM.
Mr. GOOCH presented a Petition from the Arch-
ileacun and Clergy of Sudbury, acisinst the Bill for re-
moving the Civil Disabilities of the Kunsan. Catholics.
—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. WILSON presented a similar Petition from the
incorporated Clergy of Siun College.-11r,lered to he
printed.

AGRIUL [AURAL DISTRESS.
Mr. PELHAM prose ntr.l three Petition, from Oc.
of Lana, in tariotr+ parts of Ow County of
Lincoln, especially frotis the I'ari•he+ of Wit.terget
and liaintborough, praying ieliet to the .Igticultura:
ititerebt..—Oitlered to lie on the t.11.k.

IRON Tlt %DE.
Mr. LITTLEVEN laeseoteol a Petition foul the
Workers of Iron in St.drurdshioe. praying, that the
Roofs of the (.1. urcli noir buildin', under the re-
cent Act of Parliament, might lie ntaile exclusi‘ely of
Iron. The lion. Meir.lier said a few nun!, in aid of
the prayer of the Petition, stating the advantage that
would result to tiro Iron Trade in its present distressed
state, from carrying the same into etfcet, and 'like-
. wise to the pu'olic, from the durability of the mate-
rial, as instanced in the con.truction of iron houses,
barges, &r. in St.dforilshite.
Mr. BENNET observed, that if it were resolved tu!
make the roofs of timber, it ought to be timber the
growth of onr own Colonies.
The Petition was ordered to 1;e on the table.
Mr. CUItIVEN ptestntrti a Petition from certain
Occupiers of Land, in the County of Cnuiberland,
complaining of the wasting' state of Agricultural dis-
tress.—Ordered to be printed.
wool. T.tX:

Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a Petition front the
Woolstaplers :Ind Woollen Cloth Manufacturers of
Iludderstieltl, praying the Repeal of the additional
Duty on Wool.
Lord E. SOMERSET pr,.ented a Petition to the
saute effect front the Wool!. n 1 loth Manufacturers of
the County of tiloucrster.
The Petitions %Vert' ordered t., he priwetl.
Tim3ER TRADE.

Mr. NlARRYATpresented a Petition from the
Ship Owners of Leith, Kirkablv, and other places in
Scotland, praying for a Modification or Repeal of the
Duties on the Importation of Foreign Timber.
A short conversation ensued on the subject between
Mr. Marryat, Mr. S. Wortley, Mr. Wallace, Sir T.
Ackland, Mr. Warne, and Sir .1. Newport, in the
course of which, Mr. S. Wortley observed, that the
Report of the Lords' Committee on Foreign Trade,
which was cab u tted to throw much lit.fht am the sub-
ject, would be printed, anal in the hands of Members
to-tuorrow, so as to facilitate the discwsion upon a
'motion relative to the sublet t, which Mr. Wallace hail
given notice of for a future alac.
The Petition was then u; dered to lie printed.
Mr. FLEMING presented a Petition front Ilse Oc-
enpiersof Land in Hampshire, relative to the subject of
Agricultural distress.—Ordered to lie on the table.
THEcURRENcV.
Mr. BARING presented a Petition f:•otn certain
Merchants and Traders of the Town of Liverpool, on
the subject of the Currency. He stated, that the pe-
titioners prayed the house to take into its consider-
ation the propriety of 'flaking souse alteration in the
Act passed on the 2.1 of July, 1519, so as to enable
Debtors to discharge their debts in a currency corres-
ponding in value to that in which they bad been in-
rarred ; and also to substitute payments in bullion for
specie, of such a standard of value as to the House
might seem right. The Haan. Member observed, that,
although he did not entirely concur in the prayer of
the Petition, yet he thought it necessary to state that
it was drawn up with great good sense, moderation,
aualknowledge, and signed by persons of great respect-
ability.
Mr. ELLICE said the Petition contained some ea.!
luable infortnation. He had seen massy Petitions and
read many Papers on the subject, but had never met
with one in which the consequences flowing from the
state of the Paper Currency were so truly depicted, or
one in all respects so deserving of the consideration of
the House.
Mr. BIRCH stated, that he did not concur in the
views of the Petitioners, but could vouch for their re-
spectability.—Ordered to be printed.
BANK NOTES.
Mr. BARING presented a Petition from James Fer-
guson, of Nentuau-street, Oxford-street, Stereotyper

and Printer, stating that he had succeeded in devising
a plan to prevent Bask Note Forgeries, by rendering
the imitation of Hank Notes exceedingly difficult and
expositive to Forgers, and the detection. of such imi-
tations perfectly easy and certain to every perstin ca-
pable of reading. The Petitioner prayed slat the
House would be pleased to appoint a Committee, or
some other mode, of e7;aniining the tenth of bit alle-
gations. The Hoa. mber stated, that he did not
know whether any imputation ought to be thrown on
the Rank Note Commission, of which the late Sir
Joseph Banks was Chairman, on the ground of nett
havtii mentioned this Plan, which had been sub-
mitted to them ror did he 10111 W whether the effects
stated arthe ronsee.neneee of the invention were likely
to result (ram it, brat be b.-bevel tlke Petitioner to he
a respectable man and a clever artist.—The Petition
was ettlereit, to lie on the table.
CATHOLIC CLAIMS. •
Mr. COURTENAI presented a Petition frown the
Mayor, BMW's, .and Corporation of Beeler, again.*
the Catholic l loins, but sated that he slid not con-'
cur iu the views of the Petitioners, as he believed the
r-moval of the Chit iliaabiiities of the Roman Catho-
lies would sot only not be.productive of danger s,, our
Establishments, but be conducive to the stability of
Inc State, aid egress of the Protestant Succession.—
Ordered to be printed.
Marynrsa of A V ISTIMK presented a Petition
front the Friends of Civil and Religions Liberty. in
Bedfordshire, praying that their Catholic fellow eoun-
trvirsta alight be admitted to the privilmfes of the
British Cotmtitution.—.oederesl to lie on the table.
Mr. PlA:xi:Err said, that in consequence of some
expressions which had fallen from members of that
House on the former night, he was anxious to take
the earliest opportunity of suioni:tiog to the lions.
some clauses in the Catholic Bill, which it would be
better should be drawn into discussion on Thursday
sleet than at that time. The clanses he was about to
swinish hail been drown np agreeably to the suers-
films of several no.toLers, and as they nook suing al-
teration in the Bill, he dill not wish to five any
grottos' fur the complaint of taking the House by
surprise. It was tlsereiore his object that time should
be given to .11.1 to consider them folly before the slay
of div:sission, and his proposal accordingly was, that
the House slosold slow resolve itself into a toloinsitter,
to consider the slew clauses, and having forinaliy
adopted them, to have the Bill printed to apprise
members s.f their nature, and that the Bill should be
afterwards recommitted, and the discussion hike piaci-
in the Conmsittee on suck recommittal. The Right
llonfeurable and Leerned Member further observed,
that the elitists dill not go to make any alteration in
the great principles of the Bill. But he had listened
totetery snggestion ow the entsjeeopley -whirls it might
he improved, and trusted be should not be charged
with any design of taking the House by surprise, as
he was desirous that the most deliberate attentiun
should he siren to *J important a subject, and was
particularly anxious that the debate might be Coto
ducted thrills:4lmot its that spirit of temper and mu-
aeration in is high it hail !lithe:au proceeded.—(Hear,
hear.}--Ansong the suggestions which bad beets insole
to him from both aides of the House, one was to the
tl it instead of the I lath of Supremacy being
detached from the vaplanation, according to which the
t Alone was to take it, it shout,' be incorporated WWI
;I. This II:311 1:44 its difficulties and its inconve-
niences, but at all events it would be snore agreestille
to the Catholic to have the explanation comprehended
in the oath itself, and as a Moist Honourable Member
on the opposite bide, %loon he did nut then see in his
place, bast stated that there %%wild be something ants-
maious in detaching the explanation Cann the oath,
he was induced to subsoil it to the House in this
form : that, however, all parties might give it the
Oiliest consideration, hr now proposed the Committee
pro fixdra, instead of that which would create ionise-
' diate discussion.
Sir .1. NICHOL!. is fished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman when he intended to propose that the re-
commitment of the Bill should take place? It was
important that some cons'olerahle time should be al-
hosed to intervo,r, in order to !rive an opportunity for
thoroughly understandieg, in its new shape, a uses-
osre which, the Right Hon. 6entlemau and his
friends must themselves acknowledge, more materially
affected the Constitution of the realm than any mea-
sure that had been introduced since the Restoration,
or at all events since the Revolution. It went to
effect a most material change in the character of the
Constitution ; for the character of the Cumaitation,
as now by law established--and he knew of MP other;
hr knew of no Constitution iu the abstract, such as
some Hon. Gentlemen seemed to figure to themselves,
founded on the presumed rights of man, and Universal
Suffrage, and theories of that nature—the character
of the Constitution as by law established, was to ex-
clude Catholics Irons any share of political poster,
and of public trust, whereas the Bill before the House
professed to give them (with some very few excep-
tions) all possible political power and public trust.
It was most desirable, if this were done at all, that it
should be dune in such a way as should be satisfac-
tory to all classes, more particularly to the Protestant
class, granting the concession ; and also that it should
be pre:sutra in such a shape as to make it satisfactorily
received by the Catholic. He would therefore recom-
mend that the further proceeding with the Bill should
not be pressed before the Piaster recess—(Cries of
hear ! and no')—Nun. Members would too do him
justice if they supposed he hail the slightest wish to
excite Petitions ur clamour on the subject ; but, he
repeated, that itwas most desirable to see if it was such
a measure that the country could satisfactorily erant,
or the Catholics satisfactorily receive ; and therefore
he confessed that after the Bill had assumed the final
shape which its friends *Weed it to take, he would
mach rather that it should stand over until another
Session of Parliament—(lleac ! and a laugh !)—At
all events a long time ought to be allowed for its con-
sideration ; and the earliest peri d at which, in his
opinion, the Bill ought to be pressed, was after the
Easter recess.

..-

Mr. PLUNKETT did really hope, that when the Right
Honourable and Learned tientlewati said, he rise drily
to ask him (Mr. Plunkett) when he meant to propose
the re-commitment of the Bill, he would in canwitt
have di5r.,..,1 with entering into any argument as to
its principle. be would not follow the Right Honour-
able and Learned lientlenian Into an investigation not
much connected with the measure, of the nature of oar
constitution, or ants lcilether it existed in law alone, or
possessed r.opirit which went beveml the mere law.
Were he-re do so, he should probably &free from the
Right Hot orral ;e and Learned (Woolen:an, for in L's
opinion senoe of cite most valuable and vital principles
of the F..glish C..mstiintion were rut to he found In any
written r, The violas and privileges irestowed—not
by an aniloutod reinstitution, but by one of paper only..
he might prolialrly think would not be so precious se
those of siL AI we hail the happiness to boast—(hmar,
Iti•ar.)—The Hight hio, and Learned tieutleinan had
first talked of postponing further proceeding with the
still for.mmea:ose, then until after the Easter moos,
and another Session of Parl:ament. A pro-
pos-X:4M for nt.samning it for lie months, hariug been
the miser evenir.o the Ri .ht Bout) 'raft
amid Learned thmtleirrio came forward with an Amend.
oient to th ponds:4o4ln I namely, to postpone the-
Bill
tor We've us 'miss. • He (Mr. Piiinke.t) had no wish
whatever to press the Bill forward for purlieus of sur-
prise or as 1.-rise either Protestant or Catholic of a
full oppolon:ty of judging of its meit'ci. But let it be
recollected how long a period had .!.p. rd since the Mea-
sure v-as irst debated. He would take unon himself to
me, that there was no one point that rot ill :trite, which
had not been tally discussed in previocs stares cf rift
measnre. ells iliat was requisite was to give time for
printing :he Kill, and putting it in the hands of Mem-
bers, and a postponement to iferliiem..l;:y ....vital be suds-
dent for that purpose. lf it were hi.: writ individual
measure, ho could have no hesitation in accommodating
the !tight Honourable and Learned llentleman, hat he
did not 11.1 himself entitled to take such a lis.rty as to
trinr with time of many lisomourahle tientlemer,
who he hnew were detained in (to\ :I, at great ineonveni-
en •e to themselves, with reference to this particular
sttbirvt.
Sir W. St'OlT teas of opinion that Wc.lnellsy
would be tso early a dry to h. It was a most i•tm-
portant r.:11, and a reasonabk time ought to he al-
lowed for the fair consideration of the alteratioLs
whia hal heen introduced Into It. The Judi coed
not lie prinA hi fore tomorrow night, and therefore,
there would be but one day to confider it before di.-
and not even that to such Honourable :um-
bers :is hail public ditties to perform. Ile begged.
therefore, to suggest to the Right I lononrable
demean the propriety of appoiisting. Monday nest. or
Wedneatlay week, for the re-cominituteso--(t i it • of nu !
and Lear! ).--Tlsat weald nut afford to o tr nt It tier c
foi the cons:Aeration of the chan!,t • ;a the Bill, which,
by the Rioist Ho:sou:Able Uentleman's on n
were ray important.
Sir J. NEWPORT, with great deference to t' c
Rltht &Movable amt. Leletted4lentletnan alto h... 01 •
jtist opokra, contended that, as the. House had
desidetl on die principle of the Bill. and that as the
alterations were merely alterations ut detail, growing
out of the debate of a former night, the Howe, taking
care that the tireasnrea should have sloe discussitot,
were also Wool to take care that it did not hank to
easpense, nod increase the agitation which no itar.ht
existed with respect tit it on both *ides of the Chaotic!.
Sir T. LETHIIMDIIE. enuaidering the great illiPstrt-
!tree of the question, end Owlet...at agitation which al-
ready existe-I. and which would no doubt .inereae • res-
rctitme it, romild not think it too notch to ask the Right
Hon. 4 e n demon to delay the re-commitment at least un-
til Monday heat.
The Cif ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER recom-
mended a spirit of mutual accommodation, Although
tie was try no means fur any long delay. lielliooglit th •
internal fu.tsio•en that time and Wednesday would be tot,
short. Ile would therefore put it to the caudmir of the
Iti,olit llon.lientleimin, who bail the care of
,this most
important question, whether it would not he desirable to
lie the recommitment for Monday nest !—(Friday !
Friday !)
Mr. tiurcin \SON maintained that the oily, effert
of delay would be to enable individuals out of the House
to excite clamour and agitation upon the subject.
Mr. PEEL declared, that it was far from his wish,
or that of his Honourable Friends who opposed the
Bill, to avail themselves of any aid but that of argu
went against it, or to appeal with respect to it to Any
authority from that of the lions, of Commons. lie
solemnly disclaimed the .lightest intention of calling
in the support of any external opinion, or of suppur:-
ing any proceeding out of doors calculated to preju-
dice the fair and unhias< d di cutsion of the ageasii
e.
—(liear, bear.)—The Right Honourable Lientlynavm
might, perhaps, suspect his ado ire ; but be solemnly
assured that Right Ifononrable that he
believed he would promote his own object by allow-
ing a due ti:ne for consideration. What were the de-
ill, of the measure i First, there was an alterati:ai
in the Oath of Supremacy, as it had been adminis-
tered for 300 years. The necessary cunsequen, e
of
that alteration was, time admission of :owe sort of spi-
ritual authority on the part of the Pope. Now, eras
it nut of importance, that the House should }lava
to consider to what degree the interference of the
Pole ought to hr legalized ? If, however, Wednesday
were fixed fur the recommitment of the Bill, it could
not be printed mend put into the hands of Members be-
fore to-morrow bight. or next irm,:ri.ing, and on that
very day, the House was to be called upon at once to
affirm or deny the important pr ,position snbmitted to
them. Then, as to the other details cf the Bill. the;
were most important. The Bill professed to cam
into effect the principle of the Bill of 1813, but the
details were entirely different : the Bill of 1813 did
out touch the declaration against traasabotarstiatioa.
the present measure did it away. This was enough
to .how the immense importance attached to the de:
tails of the measure. All parties had a common ob-
ject in wishing that the subject should have ee fall
and fair discussion, fur it must anquestioossisly pre-
mote the success of the measure, if the country sloiald
see that it had been fully and fairly discussed ;• and
he was sure that the Right Hooteorallie lientlemais •Co .
felt it. In advising the Right Honourable. Henlle-•
man, therefore, to defer the reconsesibtent to Monday,
he believed, upon his owe honour, that he was fur-
thering the Right Honourable Ventieman's object. ra-
ther than at of the opponents of the Bill, which

i

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- 7--"". 71. •

• •

could be only personal convenience. He certainly
differed from his Right Honourable and Learned
Friend (Sir John Nicholl) who wished for a longer
• delay. All that he wished was an interval of four
days after the printing of the Bill, and really that
aid not appear to him to be an unreasonable request.
LLIMORE allowed that it was desirable on all
accounts that obe.Bill should have asfull a consideration
as-tras necessary, but contended against unnecessary
relay.. The objectof the measure was to put the Roman
Catholics on the same footing as Protestant Dissenters.
:Rio means by which it was originally proposed to effect
Ibis object, were by repealing the declarations against
raosubstantiation, and annexing an explanation to the
Cloth of Supremacy. The alteration about to be intro-
oitic,ed was simply, instead of annexing the Oath of Sip
iLemacy, to incorporate it in the Oath. Had not that
subject again and again been discussed ? The Right
Hen. Gentleman argued. as if the whole Bill were to be
Atered, instead of merely this particular provision of it.
He trusted his Right Honourable Friend would not be
induced to delay proceeding with the Bill beyond Thurs.
%lay or Friday at farthest. As far as he was able to col-
,:t the sense of the House, Thursday seemed to them to
• the tittest day.
Mr. PEEL in explanation, observed, that the lion.
and Learned Gentleman who had just spoken, said the
object of the Bin was to put the Roman Catholic on the
same footing as the Protestant Hiss:niter. flow was
;but reconcilable with the Annual Indemnity Act neces.
jar: for the latter ? The real object of the Bill was to
xsat the Roman Catholics on the same flaming as the
?rotenone of the Church of England.
' Mr. WF.THERELL and Sir G. HILL supported the
propriety of fixing a later day than Wednesday for the
sOmmitnient of the Bill.
blr. '1 I ERN EY declared, that he thought his Right
Honourable Friend had acted with great candour in
not going on with the Bill, as be might well have
done on that evening; and that in his opinion that
candour would become excesive, if his Right Honor-
able Friend postponed the recommitment beyond Thurs-
day. He (Mr. T.) objected to Friday ; because, as
the discussion might occupy two days, the further pro-
ceeding would then go over to Monday. lie implored
the House not to consent to unnecessary delay. Ile
fare credit to the Right Honorable Gentlemen oppo-
site for their assurance, that it was by no means their
wish to emite agitation in the country ; but there
were those out of doors who would not scruple to use
every effort for that purpose. There was but one main
alteration in the !till, and the snhject had been under
dismission too many years to render it necessary that
much time should be given to the House of Commons
to consider the merits of that alteration. What be
pressed upon the House was this—if the thing
was fit to be done, to do it at once ; if not, to reject it
at once.
Lord CASTLEREAGH concurred very much with
the Right Honorable Gentleman who had just sat
down ; at the sometime he was extremely anxious to
come, if possible, to some conciliatory arrangement
on the subject. It appeared to him to be of great im-
portance that the House should come to a decision on
the subject on the same day on which it should he
hit-ought before them. Wednesday, in point of concili-
atikti, although certainly not of argument, was too
early ; the next day was a drawing room, and, although
It was unparliatuentary, he might be allowed tp express
his fears that a House might not be made; Monday
was quite out of the que-,tion, for certainly a week's
consideration was altogether unnecessary. He hoped,
th-rcfore, that the intermediate day, Friday, would
kl chosen.

Dr. PHILLIMORE, in explanation, contended, that
tl'e Bill not Doing to repeal the Test Laws, would only
Ore the Catholic on a tooting n ith the Dissenter.
Mr. WYNNE thought Friday was not a desirable day,
as the discussion might go over to Saturday.
Mr. CROKE!! said, he rose in conse9uenee of the no-
t":.e he had given of a motion respecting the provision
for the Irish CaLliolie Clergy. As the present Bill was
to b' committed merely pro forma. he bad no wish to
i”volve the House in a itiscussion but he had a propo-
%'!ion to make to which he honed his Right Hon. Friend
upposite (Mr. Plunkett) would have no chjeution. If
tee House should allow the present Bill to be printed,
lie-would, upon the bringing up the Report, take the
sense of the House upon his proposition respecting the
..lpport of the Irish Catholic Clergy in the shape of a
cause to be added In this Bill.

Mr. COURTENAY disapproved of engrafting the
rrotsure of his Right Hon. Friend upon the present
Ej:l. It would make it a Money Bill, and consequently
tte slightest alteration of it in another place would be
fatal to the whole Bill

Mr. HU explained. 7he mode of the proposi-
tion would be such that the Rill, even with the clause is
atie-Aion, cuitlil not he considered as a Money Bill
The question, "'That the Horse should resolve Itself
into a Committee," was then put and agreed to. The
House went into a Committee; the Resolutions were
proposed and carried proArma. The (louse resumed,
and the Report of the I;ouitnittee was brought up and
agreed to.
The SPEAKER then pnt the question that the Re.
port should he talon into consideration. :Much noise
ensued ; and the !louse oppeared to be divided be-
tween the cries of " Thursda% and " Friday," which
were called out very generally. The Spcalter havieg
reminded Hon. Members that no question was before
the House, called upon

Mr. PLUNKF.II.—The Right Ifor. Member said
it sras his wish to conciliate al! parti,s. As he °of.
forted that the majority of the House inclined to
Thursday," be begged to propose that day tor taking
e Ripon into consideration.

Mr. -UOVLBURN said he thought the Right
Hon. Gentleman uvula have given up a pint which

laud been asked of cando►►r. A 4, however, be
persisted in moving for Thursday, be (Mr. 1.i.) should
uppOse the motion.
Mr. PLUNKE i•T again rose; and repeating► his
wilt) to coneiliatii ail parties, aueeti that Friday"
thonld be substituted fir " Thursday."
The SPEAKER then put the question for taking
•-tbe Report into consideration on Friday, which ►vas
agreed to,
• Mc. CROKER then gave notice of a motion, on

..F.r:dayi -for. making a provision fur the Irish Roman
•• Crtholic Clergy.
air OF .011.0 E HILL begged to call the attention
..s.f the Mugs to a Petition it h;elt bad been presented
• ••loy the Jhnu. Member fur Aberdeen from a Roman Ca-
tholke -Clergyman, a Mr. Hayes of WestOrd. Ile
.11;:ought .she Jon. Member, in candour would have
• mowed-that she Petition should be printed; but as he
.. hyd not done so, he (sir 6.) now begged to utose
~o‘lhat She Petition be in print."
. : fI.OIII4.MIWPOICIP said, that the rtitioner
.4.kai received—every •mark of reapprobation from the
tiers: eecleatiastkal authority. should oppose
tio pe.ttCpg of Ilse pelitivio. . •

IL