The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

STATESMAN.

tither right to which the Catholics had a fair claim ?
here then were grounds of the invectives which the
Noble Duke (Bedford) had heaped upon the conduct
of that Government towards the Roman Catholics?
What prejudice or severity has been manifested with
re,pect to them ? Were not the persons of the Ro.
man Catholics held as sacred, and was not their pro.
perty kept as secure as those of their Protestant fellow
subjects ? Let the Noble Duke adduce one instance
of flagrant partiality towards Protestants, and of pre-
judice and severity against the Catholics, and he
would then acknowledge there were some grounds
for inquiry. Let it even be shown that the operation
of the Convention Act would be less injurious to the.
Protestants than to the Catholics, if the former
should act in violation of that law. If the Pro-
testants, under the pretence of petitioning the King
or Parliament, or any other pretence whatsoever,
should delegate and assemble 600 persons of the first
respectability and weight among them ; if that as-
sembly were to meet and deliberate, and thus form a
representative body, independent of the Legislature,
would the Government be justified in allowing such
proceedings to go on without interruption ? Was not
such, however, the recent conduct of the Irish Ca-
tholics; and was their conduct, contrary an it was to
law, and pregnant as it might have proved with the
most dangerous consequences to the State, to be al-
lowed to pass unnoticed and unchecked ? That in-
deed Would be an instance of blind and'extmordi`nary
partiality and favour towards the Roman Catholics.
The Noble Lord next entered into a vindication of
the latejudicial proceedings in Ireland, and contend-
ed that it was the indispensable duty of the Courts to
proceed as they had done. It was not surely to be
allowed, that pictures of sedition were every day to
be exhibited with impunity, without any interference
on the part of a►ny of the Constituted Authorities of
the Country ; that would unquestionably not be the
surest means olimproving the condition of Ireland.
No ! the prosperity and happiness of the United
kingdom would be promoted by natural sacrifices,
by reciprocal forbearance, and by the harmony of the
exertions and energies of both, as cordially co-
operating against the machinations and the violence
of the common enemy. Such being the impression of
bis mind he must vote against the motion for a Com-
mittee of Inquiry.

of right, it was not necessary for him to examine and I
discuss. His Noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen) had, in
his opinion, completely settled and disposed of that
question. Inde, it was true, as his Noble Friend
had observed, that such a doctrine was wholly nn-
tenable. * That doctrine, had, however, been set up
in that House by very high authorities. They ar-
gued that the concessions .called for by the Catholics,
should be granted to them as matter of right; while,
at the same time, it was contended, that the.higher
orders of the Catholics, were deprived of the privi-
leges they should enjoy, .while all the concessions
were in favour of the lower orders of that persuasion.
This, in his opinion, was forming a strange notion
of a right. He imagined that where there was a
right, there could be no distinction of persons ; that
it was the very essence of a free Constitution, that 1
where there was a right, it should be equally enjoyed
by all descriptions of persons living Juicier the same
free Government, by the higher orders as well as the
lower, and vice versa. When the improvement acid ,
melioration of the condition of Ireland 'Was sought
after, it was the condition of its peasantry which it I
should be our study to improve. Among them idle-
nesvand ignorance still, prevailed, and as long as they
were exposed to the influence of these vices; their
condition could not be improved. lie had never
been a friend to the penal laws by which the people of
Ireland had been oppressed.— --It was a vicious
system—and he agreed with Mr. Burke, that that
system had, at one time, been eurtitd 'Woos per-'`
fectioc. Such a poliry he deplored—.he detested *the
extreme to which it had been carried. Rut while he
deplored such a policy, he could not but acknow- I
ledge the fatal necessity which gave it birth, and ;
referred for his justification opt this head to the
spirit and the practice which prevailed among the
Irish Catholics at the period to which he alluded.
The laws which were then enacted, had only for their
object the security of property. But he was sorry to ,
be obliged to say, that their mischievous influence and
effects still continued. They were to be found in the 1
idleness and ignorance of the peasantry, as he had a 1..!
ready observed ; but that evil was not to be remedied
by granting to the higher orders of the Catholic per-
suasion the privileges and rank to which they were!
said to be entitled, Was it for such an object that
the House was called upon to go into a Committee
Nf E--- • ?- -What other erounds had there been

to look to the case of the Magistrates and Sheriffs : the
Sheriff was appointed by the Crown, and, of course,
was affected by a similar security. the Magistrate
was recommended by persons high in influence and.
respectability, and, in this case, as in the others,
there was no chance of a preference in favour of dis-
affected principles. If, therefore, no harm was
likely to happen from granting this boon to the Ro-
man Catholics of Ireland, why should they refuse it ?
They had heard a gviaft deal. that night of the bene-
fits which we're already cooferred upon the lower or-
ders, and they had heard that the present claims
would affect, the higher orders exclusively, but
this appeared to him a most sup2rficial argument.—
The !ewer dames w6roonly guided by persons of better educa-
tion, and if this measure was granted, they would be le,l by
men of great property and distinction—men scho were already
disposed to venerate the Constitution of the country, and to
' guard the stake which they possessed in the advantages of her
tree and happy Government. By granting this measure, they
would give those Men a greater weight with the lower orders;
bat, by punitive a costrary course, they would disoblige the
great, without benefiting the inferior, and throw the guidance
of those minds into the hands of villains, who wished for con-
fusion; by granting this measure, they would act in the most po-
litic manner with regard to the whole mass of the Irish Ca-
tholics; for surely it was impossible that a great body of
people should-not be more yolealed with the Government
which placed them upon equal footing with their fellow-sub-
jects, than with one which had thought proper to draw dis-
tinctions to their disadvantage and to its own disgrace. It
was impossible that it should be otherwise, while Iwo were men.
The individuals who at present governed the minds and passions
of the lower orders of the Catholic community, were perpetu-
ally dinging in their ears that they were oppressed. The doing
away of-all disqualifications was the way to surmount this diffi-
culty, and to remove this pretence. The Roman Catholics, he
agreed, ought to feel, that they had obtained more relief from
their present Monarch than sincethe Reformation ; but if there
was something more which it was the interest of the public to
give them, he did not see why, that should be refused; The laws
of the country encouraged them to enter into its service is the
army and navy I but if in that situation they were to be sent
to England, they were subject to penalties for their re-
ligion. Was this no hardship to them I Was this no disgrace
to us ? Would it not have disgraced the worst of times, and
tie basest and most disturbed of Revolutionary Govern-
ments?—[.leer. heue, 'hear !] —The fact was, that as the
law now stood, they were liable to informations on this account,
aid the reason that informations were not given, was because
we were ashamed of our own act, because it was so contrary to
reason, to justice, and to the feelings of Englishmen, that out of
the very dregs of the people (for dregs there must he in all won-
tries) there could not be found one so vile as to avail himself of
the power. He would have them to give the Catholic Laity all
they asked. It was right they should have it. They hail al-
ready done too much to retract, and if they did not mer.n to do
more, were unwise in having done half m much. lie agreed
with the Noble Viscount (Sidmouth) in disapproving of dictate
conduct of the Catholics, but if the Catholics had acted inton-
sistently, was that any reason why we should punish ourseliel ?
Ne agreed with the Noble Viscount that it was necessary to lave
- refusal

led tiu

The Duke ef. BEDFORD briefly expi
nature of his charges against the Irish Government.
The Marquis of DOWNSIHRE insisted that
nothing had been done towards improving the state of
Ireland ; but that every measure of late, particularly
the measure of the Union, had greatly tended to de-
teriorate her condition, to humble her pride, to sap
the foundations of her prosperity. In being deprived
of her Parliament, it was not one privation alone
that Ireland had suffered. That privation had in-
volved many other severe and degrading privations.
/t deprived her of her metropolis ; it deprived her of
her name as a kingdom ; it deprived her of her no-
bility privations which of themselves are sufficient
to sink the spirits, and unnerve theenergies of a peo-
ple. It moreover tended to drain her of her money,
by remittances to absentees, and thus deprived her,
not only of the example and influence which a nobi-
lity and gentry are wont to exert over a country, but
also of the advantage of resources which were drawn
from her soil. Indeed, in every point of view in
which the measure of the Union could be contem-
plated, it would appear with disadvantages and
degradation to Ireland, instead of benefits. It
promised great advantages to the Catholics, to
induce them to concur in promoting the measure,
and repaid that concurrence with disappointment
and ingratitude. Instead of mutual conciliation,
it only begot disaffection and ; and in
every respect it could only be looked upon as
a nominal union. Such appearing to him to be
the coudition of Ireland, he could not but support
irty motion that had for its object to better that con-
dition.
The Earl of HARbWICKE defended the conduct
of the different Governments of Ireland for a num-
ber of years past. Most of them had been marked
by concessions and indulgence to the Catholics.—
Out of these concessions fresh claims and demands
seemed to grow—though they were granted, they
were expected to afford entire satisfaction, and to put
a stop to any further solicitations. In the year
1793, the Elective Franchise, and the right of ac-
quiring property were conceded to the Catholics—
and. it wu then understood on all hands that the
spirit of concession had gone to its fullest length.—
No one could redoice more than • he did at the repeal
of the penal laws ; but there must be some point at
which a stand was necessary to be made. He could
see no possible advantage in instituting an inquiry
at the present moment into the state of Ireland.
The granting of a Committee for that purpose, would
be only to throw censure on the Government of Ire-
land, which their conduct was far from deserving.--,
In other respects, he did not consider the present
,t_tdc;- seasonable and propitious

-01 ~:nquiry
for the necessity of such an inquiry at present ?tt.-
The Noble Viscount then proceeded xo consider the
conduct of the Irish Government, and of the No-
ble Duke at the head of that Government. There
was not the least colour for any of the charges made
against that Government. Abase all, no blame
could be attached to the Noble Dike, with whose
generous, humane, and gentle nature, he was Hall
acquainted; a nature that would never allow him to
oppress an individual, much less a large description
of his fellow subjects. But why was such a motion
as the present deferred till now ? Why has there been
no necessity for it during the last eleven years ?
Much had been said of the wisdom, the moderation,
the patriotism of the Catholics on various occasions
during that period; yet it never has !),,on thought ne-
cessary till now to adduce the di :p!ay of these vir-
tue. as a rennet for ;;ranting a Committee of let'
quiry. But it seems that some Noble Lords would
have all the laws repealed upon which perhaps &s-
-pends the security of property. Yes, have them all
repealed; and yet talk of securities in their room.
The House did not now even hear of the Veto. Yet
such counter-securities were no doubt absolutely ne-
cessary ; should not the King be made a co-ordittafe
power with the Pope—but would the Catholics agree
to this? Would their Hierarchy submit to this? He
believed not. While such a state 'of things remained,
he must dread not only the opinions, but the mo-
rals of the Catholics. He could not consent, with-
out due provisions for the safety of the present Es..
tablishments, to place in the hands of. the CatholiCs
high military and legislative authority. Ho could
not assent to this equalizing of religions. Ile could
not assent to see the symbols and attributes of au-
thority carried one tin to Church, aud the next to
Mass. The union of Church and State should ever
be held sacred by him. They were inseparably uni-
ted, and every thing would be risked by the die-
solution of that union, of that most sacred alli-
ance.—From its downfall, the most dreadful politi-
cal convulsions and every other species of misery
might justly be apprehended. With such an impres-
sion on his mind, he could vote for nothing that had'
so fatal a tendency: he most therefore oppose the
motion of the Noble Foil.
Lord HARDWICKE briefly explained. .
Lord SOMERS said the question should be con-
sidered on the broad ground of justice and policy.--
The Catholics had reason to expect, that after the
Union, they would obtain the privileges which were
so long disputed; if it was not for that conviction,
he understood that they would not have given their
support to the measure; and if this was the case, had
they not a strong claim of justice upon their part?,.

an Eaablished Religion, but be could- not allow that the
of those claims formed a proper foundation for the existence of
that Establishment. A strong idea had gone forth, that the ll-
lustrious Person now at the head of the Governinent, was fa-
vourable to this measure ; and if Ministers had taken any steps
to advise the contrary, they were wrong. Ile hoped that sky
would see the expediency of satisfying the mind of that couirry,
and asserting the character of this, by removing the disabilities
under which so great a portion of the community at present la-
boured.
The Marquis WELLESLEY said, that to look to
Ireland with respect to its resources, its feelings, its
interests, and its condition, was a subject well wor-
thy of their attention, as hereditary Counsellors of
the Crown, or as British subjects; but this view
should not be taken without regard to the ancient
I usage, and wise custom of Parliament, which pre-
' scribed, that they should not go into Committees,
without deliberating on those feelings and interests,
I,4nd on the tendency of the ultimate result. In. the
first place, it would becoMe them to consider what
effect it would be likely to have on the preseriation
of the law of Ireland, and the tranquillity for which
the law was framed. Secondly, What effect it would
have on the Executive Power of Ireland, and on the
peace, which that Executive should at all times pro-
, tect. And thirdly, What effect it would produce
on the dispositions of the people, and on that trap-
, quit consideration of the question, upon which de-
pended our happiness as a nation, our means of de-
fence against the enemy, and the proper and perma-
neat establishment of Church and State. But what
had the Noble Earl on the opposite side said ? • He
had placed in the front of his argument a Newspaper
report, of a trial between Government and certain
individuals; but as far as he (Lord W.) understood
the circumstances of that case, he believed that if a
verdict was not given in favour of Government, a
charge to that effect was pronounced by a Judge; yet
the Noble fiord would have them go into a Com-
t mittee on such a case. [hear, hear !] He alluded
to the conduct of the Government of Ireland re-
specting the Convention Act. If any thing had
occdrred which could lead him to suppose that there
was any intention in the Irish Government to step
between the Crown and the subject, to throw a dif.
ficulty in the way of the right of petitioning, or to
f prevent in tiny manner the expression of the senti.
meats of any body of the people, he would think
that such a Government was unworthy of support:
but he could perceive no such intention. The whole
question was one of legal argument, and on tait, the
decision of the Judges was expressly in their favour.
He denied upon the part of Government, that any
improper or unconstitutional attempt was made in
'the instance alluded to by the Noble Earl. The
Ifkct was, that the Government Ncits atrised by the
Law Officers that the constitution of such an assem-

time and circumstances as . propita,, „ .1
for the agitation of these questions. He must there. -If no mischief was likely to arise from granting their bly was contrary to law, ' that it was contrary
fore oppose the motion of the Noble Earl. I request, what objection could be stated against it ?' to the Conveution Act. • The law was against
Lord Somers and Lord Viscount Sidmouth rose at where were the dreadful ,consequences which the Assembly, and Government, in taking the
the some time, when after a pause, the Lord Chan-' some persons seemed to anticipate, from allowing-. side of law, had only done its duty. He re-
cellar called on Lord Sidmouth. I them the right to sit and vote in Parliament ? membered that the opinion of Mr. Fox was in favour
Lord SI UMOUTH said, that he feared that on If he stated the number of Peers at ten or twelve, he ! of this very Act, in 1793, for he stated that the
the present occasion he should not be able to do jus- supposed it would be the outside; and supposing in principle against which it was directed, was one cal-
tice to his own feelings. He derived, however, much the House of Commons, that one half of the Irish , culated to create disturbance. But whatever might
satisfaction from what had fallen from two Noble Members were to be returned by that body, what have been the impressions at that time, now, after
Lords who had preceded him. With the one (Earl mischief could arise from the admission of 50 Catho- the sitting of the Committee, and the knowledge of
of Aberdeen) lie concurred in considering the present lie Members among a body consisting of near 700 ? its proceedings, there could be no longer any doubt
question as one of the deepest importance ; with the! He had always remarked, that on every question upon the subject. Yet what did the Irish Govern-
other (Earl Hardwicke), he agreed in thinking, that that related to the Roman Catholics, the great majo- ment do ? they barely issued a proclamation, stating
after theconcessions made to the Irisheatholics inma, rity of the Members at preseht returned by that coon- rthe law as it stood, and their determination to en.
that concession had then gone its utmost length, and try voted as they would have done if they were Ca- I force it. And what followed ? a direct and palpable
that there a stand ought to have been made. But he tholics ; so that the evil to be apprehended from ati violation of any doubt was entertained as to
must differ from these Noble Lords in the view they number of Catholic Members Voting in the same that circumstance, let them appeal to the trial itself.
took of the consequences that might arise to thiscoun_ way with a similar number of Protestant Members, At that trial there were some admirable specimens of
try from any opposition to further concessions. The was of a nature altogether incomprehensible to the eloqueuee of the bar, and of the learning and
.Noble Earl who • brought forward the motion seem- him, He did not see in • what manner they I acuteness of the Judges, which every one must ap-
ed to think that more had been granted to the could be supposed to destroy the Constitution. i prove of, but the result was a distinct opinion that
Mwer orders of the Catholics than to the higher : God forbid that the Constitution should stand the letter of the law WAS in favour of Government.
That the higher classes, the Nobility of that per. on such a ground as to be so easily and so Upon What ground then did the Committee stand ?
suasion, were still deprived of the rauk and pri- unaccountably shaken. But 'opposing them to at- If some Violent act were committed by the Govern-
alleges which they were entitled to, enjoy, while rive at the high offices of State, still he could see nt) ment against the people their ground was manifestly
many advantages were derived by the lower order of danger. Was * natural to suppose, that the Illus. I good. -But had Government so interposed ? Had it
Catholics, from the concessions already made to trious Person now entrusted- with, the Govern. not maintained, instead of, defeating law? The line
them. Yet to both, it had been argued, belonged meat of the country, would be likely 'to ap. which Government hod taken was one of admoni-
the right of such concessions. They were not to be point such Catholics to those offices us were likely to tion. It had told them that they were acting con-
matter of discussion and deliberation, they ought to overturn the Government, any" more than he would trary to law ; and in doing sof it had given them the
be acknowledged as matter of right. This question appoint Protestants of a similar description? Agtgß best advice, Not was be swan of any thing which


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