The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-06-08 00:00:00

CATHOLIC PITHS.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE held a petition from the
Inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Mansfield,
in the county of Nottingham, against a Bill pending in
their Lordebips' house fur granting peculiar favours to
Catholic Peers in violation of the Constitutism In the
course of a few days that petition had been signed by
1.300 persons. He trusted. therefore, that the eyes of
the country were opened, and he believed that the chief
part of the empire viewed with terror the passing of such
Bill by one brascb of the Legialatore. In his part of
the country be could say, that hostility to the Bill was
increasing, and would increase, which must be the ease
against a t which be could, and the nation would
soon call by no other name than that of odious. It was
a Bill more insidious and more full of danger than any
which bad been passed since the times of Charles Hsi
Second. He trusted that, in rejecting it, their Lord-
ships would give a fresh proof of their wisdom. The
discussion having unexpectedly been postponed, be
feared it would not be in his power to attend when it
should take place, as domestic circumstances might pre-
vent him. If this were the case, be should feel deeply
mortified. as it was not oaly a f duty, but inch-
maims which made him consider it n y to oppose
Is a
rise to object to the petition,
which it was •ery proper for
Still lees did he mean t.'
• measure against which
thew Lardsktp•
. of the Noble Duke's attend-
awe, was convinced that, whether that Noble Duke
should a* present at the time, or should avail himself of
his Parliamentary privilege, to give his vote, his opi-
nion on the subject would be equally unchanged. But
Ise objected to the manner in which the Noble Duke hail
described the Bill, as one for granting peculiar favours
to Catholic Peers in violation of the Constitution. Let
the Noble Lord read the Bill and he would see that it
was nut one to grant favours in violation of the Coned-
.ntion, but one to restore the ancient Constitution dale
country and of that house. In saying this he meant to
express no opinion as to the propriety of passing the
measure; but be could not suffer so erroneous a desco ip-
lion to be sent forth to the world by an individual of
rank and induence, whose opinion must certainly be
looked to by the uninformed on the subject. The Bill
on the table must rest on its own merits. Some doubted
whether the period were come for passing such a mea-
sure, others objected to the measure altogether, but no-
ising but the grossest ignorance could maintain that if
the Bill did pass, it would not render the Constitution
more analogous to what it was in former times. He
also *soared the Noble Duke that he knew something
oldie public opinion in that part of the country from
which the petition had come, and that it was by no
means so general against the Bill, as the Noble Duke
supposed. And. if much exasperation bad prevailed on
he subject, it would have still more become the Noble
Doke to be correct in what he stated, and not to give a
Description which was totally inapplicable to the

The petition having then been received, and laid on
the table,_ _

The D'ulte of NEWCASTLE presented similar peti-
tions from the Borough of Newark-upon-Trent, the
towns of East Redford and Tuckford. the Parish of Sut-
ton cud Ashley, and front the Inhabitants of Notting.-
ham. The last had been sigoed iu two Jays by 1,525
individuals. Read and laid on the table.

The Marquess of LANSDOWNE gave notice, the
on Monday next he should more the second reading of
the kcill for the more effective punishment of .11an.
slang s ter.
cuvrtc• DIECICLINE.

Lord DACKE rose, pursuant to notice, to present a
petition which be bad received and should subunit to
their Lordship* with reluctance, as it bore personally on
one individual whom he sincerely respected fur his high
character and attainments. He should nut have dour
his ditty, however, if he had not accepted the task ; the
inure especially as the petition complained of a practice
which savoured in some degree of severity. Ile should
first move that the petition he read; then that it do lie upon
the table, and if this were agreed to, he should then pro-
pose to address the Crown. Their Lordships were not
ignorant of the subject, as it had c beture them last
year, and.liad he been satisfied by the answer Coen
given, that the Right K l Prelate, whose conduct
wee arraigned, bad acted in conformity with the law of
the land and that of the Church, he could assure biro
that he would not bare brought the present petition for-
ward. But since that time the petitioner stated that the
Right Rev. Prelate bad added to the S 7 questions which
be then proposed, 36 wore on one single point of doc-
trine, wli the Thirty-nine Articles should be the
only standard of the doctrines of the Church. He should
nut however now enter into the ateliers of fact which.
the petition contained, but should only wove that it be
read.
The petition was then read. It was from Thos. Shut-
tleworth Urinishaw, Clerk Master of Arts and Rector of
Button Latimer, and cwiti, teed of the Bishop of Veter-
borough's refusal to license in his Diocese, unless $7
questions, which lie put to Candidates were answered to
his satisfaction. It then prayed their Lordships to ad-
dress the King to enforce the declaration at the bead of
the Liturgy.
The petition having been real!,

Lord DACRE stated VW beheld soothe! te the same
effect from anodise 1.4 ildeaL Thor groubb of wow
plaint in both was; •the nature of the ediatioadow to
which Caudidates for Holy Orders or for Corsoiss wore
subjected by the colony adopted by the Itight.Boe.
ire-
late. He them read a letter from a Mr. Theatelk Who
said that be liaid eessidered the 87 questioniimme Oliew
tively and answered them most cotireirattamoly, oat that -
some of them being of a host delicate Water., be D.d
subjoined an Appendix to bis answer, with the 'woe-
rities on which it was founded. le reply to this, the /
Right It d Prelate,had written a Imo", is whisk he; •
stated that the oi j •ct of his exa similes was to ascertain` •
the religion of the CaoAidate, that he might know whii- • .
ther they were founded on the doctrines of the ellarch ; •
that he only wasted plain aid, short answers, ibetemlil
of which bit. Thurtell had seat him a mass.of distafisi-
tions which prevented his own °pintos frosts being stew. •
and that be sent him another copy of his questions, to •
which be elsettldiattern precise swats. nod thotam 114P4 •
mode of examination depended entirely on his Iwo dfe;
motion, he should inform Mr. Thurtell beforehand, that
if be did not choose to conform to it, be should not he
licensed. • Now he contended that, admitting the right
of the Reverend Prelate to examine and to choose his
mode of exandoetion, still he was honed by the common .
statute and the Canon law to towline himself within cer.,. _
thin limits. It bad bees the comings practice and cove-
telly when a person removed from another Diocese, to
admit the validity of the testimonial which he preeeoted,
signed by his Rector and comitersigued by the Bishop.
As the Rev. Prelate acknowledged no such courtesy, he
would allow that be possessed the right of exasuluation,
by the 18th of Elizabeth, and by the thirty-fonrth Caton,
be was limited in his examination in these points whe•
ther a person could explain in Latin, and account for his
belief according to the Articles of the Church. If these
Articles had been so drawn up by tie,* who had pre-
pared them, as to embrace a larger latitude than vise par-
ticular sect, then persons might account for their faith
according to them, in more than one particular mode. •
This, he contended, was the end fur which they bad been
framed, and be supported Isis opinion by quotations
from Bishop Burnet and Fuller's History, and by the
later authorities of the Bishop of Bangor and of Bishop
Hartley. He also maintained that the Royal Declare-
don which preceded the Liturgy, was intended to show
that men of different *pinks's. might meet within the
pale of the Thirty-nine Articles, all of them taking them
to be for them. lie complained that the Eighty-set-en
Questions proposed by the Reverend Prelate, were not
an examination, but a test which must be cone through,
before he would admit of examination. The Royal De-
claration wished all " curious questions" to lee Laid
aside, but many of the R d I'relate's questions were
of the most metaphysical order. if they were idemical
with the Thirty-otne Articles, then they were super-
Boons; and if they were not co-extensivc with all those
articles, they were in opposition to the Statute and
Cason Laws. The Reverend Prelate might say, that
this was not the proper place for discussing such ques-
tion, hut if hedenied their Lord•hips' authority, in what
siloatios were they placed? Would it not be possible
that every Bishop should bat. &alleles of his own, and
would men andertake the wire of souls, if they were to
be tried by different tests in every Diocese, and be ex-
posed to such severe proceedings? Would their Lord-
ships remain passive, when such a practice might he.
come generalized, and the country might be filed with
Bishops with articles in their bands, and by Ministers
inquiring in what Diocese they might profess ? Would
not this be recruiting for dissenters: Such a pra ..ios
would give thins a complete triumph. Here would be
an Episcopal Establishment with a dissenting popula-
Lion. He hoped their Lordships wrothd concur with him
in the opinion that some remedy should be provided for
such an evil. It was always supposed that there was iso
wrong without a remedy, and the Crown had power to
grant one. It might direct a convocation to be called.
So soon, therefore. as the petition should in laid on the
106,W should more aa address to the Crown, praying
his Majesty to institute an inquiry to ascertain whether
any innovations had taken place in church discipline
likely to produce mischievoueconseqnerices. At the
same time be had too much respect for the character of
the Right Rev. Prelate not to attribute the course whiCh
be had adopted to over seal, which would produce ef-
fects totally different from those which he contempla'ed.
The Noble Lord concluded by moving that the petitiaa
du lie upon the table.
The Bishop of PETERBOROUGH would begin by
making some remarks on the speech of the Noble Lord,
and would then go through the allegations of the Peti-
tion, on which all Petitions most stand or fall. The
Noble Lord had informed the House of the case which
had given rise to the petition, but it had been suppress-
ed by the Petitioner. The right of examination was
given to Bishops by the 48th canon, which ordered that
no curate should be admitted, except after having Leen •
examined by the Bishop of the diocese., Had not every
bishop then also the right-of choosing a mode of eIIIIII-
- ? The questions which he proposed were not a
test, but an esential part of his examination. He com-
pared the answers with the Liturgy and the Articles,
which were therefore the only tests to which candidates
were submitted. Hail he not the right of selecting his.
mode of examination in his owe Diocese? If their LW,.
ships interfered in his case, they must interfere also in
oteer Dioceses, for he was not the only Bishop who ex-
amined by questions anti answers. And then every dis-
appointed candidate for Holy Orders nonld send Peti-
tions like the present to the House. The Right Rev.
Prelate then stated that the Petitioner, instead of return-
int plain answers to the questions put to Liin,had defeat-
ed their object by the multiplicity and length of his ex-
planations. lie hail sent ten folio pages of the largest
dimension and closely written. This was both an arti-
fice and an insult, and he would have acted more ho-
nourably if lie had refused at otter to give any *newer at
all. Having waded through this mass of matter, (tue
Bishop of Peterloarungla) had found that the whole was
collected to conceal the (Orlon oh thePetitioLer. He bad
soot him another paper desiring to have piecise answeis,
but the Petitioner had replied that he could only answer
As he had done, and that if more explanations were
wanted he was ready to send them. Ms, then could be
(the Bishop of Peterborough) conscientiously deo:are
that a man iworessed sound doctrine when he could not
ascertain what were his religious opinions? It had been
hinted twat he paid no attention to the testioauniaLs
broeght troni other dioceses; hut those testimonials were
gem-tally to moral character, with an opinion that the
peewits was orthodox. Now there' were so many topi-
idits with respect to orthodoxy that an examination
glom. could settle the point. Besides, the Bishop of the
Diocese, when he countersigned those tewitisentels, on 4
bore witness to the hoursty of the sobstriber, not to the
character or doctrine of the candidate . Tim. We'. Pre-
late then read the various allegations of the Petition, and
declared that it was false, that he had peremptorily re.
rired answers to every owe of his questions. it was
false that he had ever rejected individuals, even it tut),
had deviated from his own iiverpretatioo; not only in
Owe, but even in six or seven a:lslv, is on puisit's on

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-411111 Ia
ecinftoversy might fairly exist. Ile had never refused :
Ace°. e, except when the opinions expressed were in de
rect contradiction to the doe fines of the Church. I
was also false that he had added 36 questions to the on
ginal 97. He had not added; but substituted those 36 fox
the 67, in cases of examination for Curates • in those fot
Ordination he had made no alteration. The Petitioner
wished to recognise no other standard of doctrine
than the 39 Articles: but he contended that the
Liturgy formed part of the test to whiels it was necessary
to subscribe. Every Candidate was required by the
Canon, to give account of his faith according to the Ar-
Celt% of religion. But could lead° so by the mere actor
putting his name to those. articles ? . Would not that be
nugatory? The Canon warranted examination, and ex-
amination warranted his questions. The articles with.
out beiieg interpreted said nothing. It was interpreta-
tion *hid) prevented them from being a dead letter.—
In-the answers returned to his question, he had sonic-
times found the articles made to express the very reverse
of their real meaning. Was it his duty in these eases tp
grant ordination or licences? Yet in the course of
five rears, the number of persons to whom be had refused
either. did not amount to more than three. The Royal
Declaration at the bead of the Liturgy, bad given as
mach offence at the time to the adversaries of Archbi-
shop Law, as this question had done to his opponents.—
An Address bad then been presented to the King, as one
was now proposed, and if the same party, prevailed in the
present day as in the time of Charles I. the Malmo of
Peterborough might undergo the same'faie as Arclebi;
steep haw. The Petitioner prayed their LoAships to
address his Majesty to enforce the Royal Declaration,
but that Declaration warissued to insure the grammati-
cal explanation of the Articles, and that was what Isis
questions were intended to do. Should his Majesty is-
sue his mandate to forbid the use of those questions he
should bow in submission; but it would become their
Lordships, before they agreed to an Address calling fur
such exercise of the Royal Prerogative, to consider u br-
iber it would be consistent with the Constitution of
Church and State. Ile therefore trusted that their Lord-
ships would not think it necessary to concur with the
prayer of a Petition founded in fallacy and falsehood.—
Of this he was convinced the Noble Lord was not aware,
when he yielded to the solicitations of the Petitioner to
present it to the House. Whatever might he their Lord-
ships decision, he could leave no personal interest in the
matter, and he Was only anxious to retain the use of his
questions, because the experience of five years had sa-
tisfied him of their utility. He now stood a second time
in his own justification, though it was not usual to be
tried twice for the same offence, and it wits not very
seeming that an individual who dedicated his life to the
defence of Christianity, should be twice put upon •bis
own. He now should leave his case in the hands of their

Lordships.
Lord HOLLAND conceived that the Rev. Prelate had
used harsh language towards the Petitioner. For though
he was a man of learning anti a Prelate, he hail not the
power of reading hearts and 'mowing the motives of
soma. After having attentively listened to the Rev. Pre-
late's speech, he mast say, that the whole tennur of it
displayed the most complete Ignortratia cleßrhi that lie
had ever witnessed in a public man or a• public hotly.
The question was, whether the principle of examination
was justified by the law of the land, and he held„accord-
ing to sound constitational doctrine, that if a remedy
were not (flood in the Church or the Law, it must be
fouod in Parliament. The Rev. Prelate said, that his
questions were not tests, but a mode of examination ;
but this was a miserable subterfuge, and the Rev. Pre-
late was surely too manly not to own, that his object
was to tied out the religious opinions of individuals.—
As to the canon law being binding on Ecclesiastics, he
doubted whether it might be considered as the law of
ti•e land, not having received the same sanction as the
;L9 Articles and the Liturgy. The only ground on which
the Rev. Prelate was able to stand was the •ISth canon,
and even that was ambiguous. The Thirty-nine Arti-
cles, as they at present s'oewl by law established, were
put in their present shape at the commencement of the
reign of Queen Elizabeth, in 136*.t. Would the Learned
and Rev. Prelate deny, that from the time of Luther,
from the time of the Reformation itself, the principles of
Armenianism were not unknown to the Church ? Would
any man believe such a thing, or if he did, would be
venture to assert it? If these questions had been pro-
posed, since the framing of the Articles, to many of the
greatest ornaments of the Church, would they not have
given such answers as would have excluded -them from
the Church, if such a system had prevailed? The ten-
dency of the system was to narrow the basis of the
Church—a most dangerous policy in whomsoever might
pursue it. The Articles bad always since the time of
Charles IL been considered as articles of peace rather
than of uniformity. The object or policy of them had
been, In the language of their historian, to preserve a
discreet laxity. That good and learned person, Arch-
bishop Wake, said, that it had always been the practice,
and, he trusted in God, that more would never be re-
quired from the candidates for the Church than • sub-
scription to these articles. Now the Learned and Rev.
Prelate opposite must either use all the harsh and un-
charitable language to that great person, as he had ap-
plied to the Petitioner, or else be inconsistent with him-
self. lie did not mean to put articles of examination to
the Bench of Bishops; but he believed that if any such
course were taken, it would be found that great diver-
sity of opinion existed. He had heard that persons who
Lad been refused in the diocese of Peterborough, had
gone to a diocese where they. had been known, and were
ordained. He protested against the cruel practice of ex-
amining Curates upon the Articles. If a man after long
deliberition with himself, resolved upon entering the
Church of England, or any Church, it was most cruel
am! impolitic in that Church to reject him. lie must
say, that in his opinion the Bishop of Peterborough hod
very mach exceeded his legal authority in putting his
Eighty-seven Questions upon the Thirty-nine Articles.
At all events, it he had not exceeded his authority, he
had exercised it in a novel, and. to the interests of the
Church, detrimental mai a -r. As far as the Church Es-
tablishment formed part of the laws of the land, it was
their duty to maintain the peace thereof; and to prevent
the spectacle of one diocese being set against another,
they ought to put a stop to this growing evil in the
Church. The Learned and Rev. Lord had avowed in
that Honse what no one had ventured to do since the
Revointion, viz. a desire to straiten and narrow the basis
of the Church. lie hoped that House would interfere
and widen that basis as much as possible, consistently
with their duty to God and the interests of the Church.
The Learned and Rev. Prelate talked about Convoca-
tion. It was a very prettytbing to read about in books,
bat he hoped be should never see that power put in ope-
ration in the present day.
Lord CAI TIIORP thought that though there was a
discretion vested in the Bishops, the Right Reverend
Prelate had gone beyond the hunts of any discretion
'that could possibly have been conceived to attach to the
'4Bth Canon, and also in violation of :he King's Ueda
action affixed to time 39 articles. That Declaration wir‘
iii forbid the discussion of nice and curious questions
such as those put by the Right Rev. Prelate. lie asked
whether it was to he tolerated in a country like this.
that individuals, who by their learning and attainments
would do credit to any profession, should he excluded
from carrying those qualities to the Church ? He gave
fUll credit to the'Right Rev. Prelate fir that extraordi-
pity zeal for the Established Church, which-, although
disguised, he really believed actuated him in this pro-
ceeding. But he must declare it as his solemn opinion.
that the course pursued by Lieu bad a direct tendency to

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crate schisms io. the Church; and be hoped therefore i•
mould be put a stop to betore its evils became felt.
IL
'toped the House would vote for this Petition, as imply
:ng a censure upon a practice which since the establish-
ment of the Reformed Church to this period had octet
before prevailed.
The Earl of HARROWBY said, that as be thooglit
differently now from what be did when the last pennon
was presented, he would trouble their Lordships with an
explanation of the vote he should give. From the se-
riousness of the allegations, and the repetition of them,
he thought the Petitioner was entitled to mom before
the House, and he thought that House was bound to give
more attention to the Petition. On the question which
the Petition involved, be confessed that be was dis-
posed to agree in almost all that he had heard from the
other side, but lie made a resery on some points. The
declaration allotted to, set forthe that the candidate for
Hole Orders, "shall give an account of his faith, ar-
oirding to the articles, and his concurring eith the same
shall be sufficient testimony." The practice of the
Right Rev. Prelate be thought was eminently prejudi-
cial and dangerous to the Church. To marrow the foun-
I stations of the Church was not the mode to promote its
interests. The practice was doubtful in point of law.
and clearly wrong in point of pike. He should vets
for the Petition being laid on the table, though he was
far from pledging himself to support an address whiclf
he had not heard read.
The LORI) CHANCELLOR was ready, in mincer-
retire with the principles said down by the Nellie Earl
who had spoken last, to vote for the Petition being laid
ea the table, whether any thing were to be done upon
It or not. But i laying it on the table were to be con-
sidered to mean f censu re upon the Right Rev. Prelate
who was the subject of it, lie, for one, protested against
leach an interpretation being put upon Isis vote.—(Hear,
hear.) It was incomprehensible to him how a Bishop
could proceed without examination en the articles.
The question was then put, and agreed to without a
division.
Lord DACRE said, that after what had passed he
begged to withdraw his motion for an address to the
Crown, and substitute that the Petition be referred to a
Committee, to consider the matter thereof.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that after what
he had already expressed, he should detain the House
no longer than to say, that he would not consent to this
motion.
Lord CARNARVON complained that none of the
Learned and Rev. Prelates had by word or gesture given
them to and d whether they assented to the doc-
trines of their Learned and Rev. Colleague whose con-
duct bad been the subject of discussion. They had all
come down to discharge some important duty evidently,
but what that was, whether to assent or dissent, no oue
bad been able to divine. He confessed that even these
learned persons had not deigned to enlighten the aub-
ket with some portion of their erudition and talents;
be was entirely at a loss to know how to vote. It was
for subjects of this kind in which so many dark and ab-
struse details were involved that those Learned and Rev.
Persons were placed amongst them in that House; and
bow their timid silence was to be accounted for on the
present occasion he knew not. He hoped that what he
bad said would induce some of that Learned and Rev.
Body to rescue itself from what he most call the shame
of such inactive and timid conduct.
On the question that the Petition be referred to a
Committee, the House divided.—Coatents 19; Non-Con-
tents, 38; Majority, 39.
MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT SILL.
After a few words in conversation from Lord Ellen-
borough, the Earl of Liverpool, and the Lord Chancel-
lor, this Bill was read a third timet and ordered to be
committed on Wednesday.
Their Lordships adjourned a little after nine o'clock

30USE OF COMMONS.

Mr. MASON from the East India House, presented cer-
tain Resolutions of the Court of Directors respecting the
Salaries of the Officers of the Company.—Ordered to lie
on the table.
Mr. BLACKBURN presented 1" petitions iron)
Lancashire against the Licensing Bill.—Ordered to lie
on the table.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR postponed until the 26th instant,
his motion respecting the Practice of the Court of
Chancery.
BREACH OP PRIVILRGE.
Mr. EGERTON presented a petition from Chester
against the Licensing Bill. On the question being put
that the petition be brought up.
Mr. BERNAL said, be took that opportunity to cor-
rect a misrepresentation which bad found its way into
some of the Newspapers, as to what be had said respect-
ing the Bill in question. It was stated that had said there
were no abuses whatever under the present system. tie
had never said so.—He bad merely said that a distinc•
lion ought to be drawn between the town and the coun-
try brewer. Upon general principles he highly ap-
proved of the Bill, and should give it his hearty support.
The SPEAKER enquired whether the Hon. Member
intended to submit any motion in consequence of the
Breach of Privilege he had just noticed.
Mr. BERNAL answered in the negative; and the
petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to lie
on the table.
Mr. AGAR ELLIS presented petitions from the
wholesale Spirit Dealers of Kinsale and Waterford,
against the present distillation laws.—Ordered to Be on
the table.
Sir ULYSSES BURGH presented a petition from
certain Landowners and Merchants of Carlo), engaged
in the butter trade, praying for protection duties on
the Importation of that article.—Ordered to lie on tbe
table.
The same lion. Member presented certain returns ft 'al
the Ordnance Office, relative to the salaries of the Of-
ficers of that department. Ordered to lie on the table,
and be printed.
Mr. BY NU presented a petition from the Rector
and Churchwardens of the Parish of St. George in
the East, against the Iron Coffin Bill.—Ordered to lie'
on the table.
The Middlesex County Treasurer's BiV was read a se-
cond time, and committed.
Mr. CURWES moved for an account of the number
of gallons of spirits distilled from Corn in Ireland in
each year from the year ISIS to the present time—
and a similar account respecting Scotch spirits.—Or-
dered.
Gen. GASCOYNE presented a petition from au Indi-
vidual, against the Annnitv Memortal Indemnity Bill.—
Ordered to lie on the table.

COURT OF CHANCRRT.
A eon aaaaa tion tool; place between Mr. Wetherell anti
Mr. M. A. Taylor, as to the object of the latter, in the
too ion o: which be had given notice respecting the
of the Court of Chancery.
Mr. TAYLOR said, he intended to move for a Com-
mittee to consider the provisions of the Bill creating the
Vice-Chancellor's Court; and if the house should adopt
the motion, he intended to propose a Legislative measure
to limit the jorisdiction of that Court.
Mr. DA SUN moved for 'm address to the Crown for
*Copy of the Report of the cominissiooers appointed to
inquire into the Salaries and Duties of the Officers of
Courts in Scetland.—Ordered.
The Bakers' Regulation Bill went through a Commit-
tee, on the motion of Mr. C —The Report was
•rdered to be received on Monday.
Mr. KENNEDY postponed the second reading of
the Scotch Juries Bill until the 17th instant.

lAN.

Lord U. BERESFORD presented a Petition from
Waterford, praying for a further protection of the Butter
Trade.
Sir N. COLTHURST postponed his motion for a
t o -tteeon the Butter Trade, until Friday nest.
Mr. BENET 1' (of Wiltshire) presented a Petitiot:
from tertian Farmers of Salisbury, for the repeal of the
Leather Tae.—Ordered to be printed.
A Message from the Lords here announced their Lord.
ships' Assent to . I Bills.
Mr. CALCRAFT begged to call the attention of the
' Attornevkleneral to certain returns, which were last
year ordered by the House, respecting the business
transacted by the Court of Chancery. The order had
been complied with after the lapse of a considerable
time; but the remit had been imperfectly made out.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he would make
it business to enquire into the circumstance. He
believed the neglect was not intentional.
After a fete words from Mr. Wt es, Mr. ABERCROM-
RIE. MY. M. A. TIVLOR, and from the ATTORNEY-GENE.
RAI.. in tEplan3tinn,
The ATTORNEV•GENERAL presented Petitions
frcim certain Officers of the Court of Exchequer, pray.
ing for etempensation in consequence of the loss of their
fees by the Recognizance Bill—Ordered to he on the
table.
Mr. BEAUMONT presented a Petition from certain
Dwitera and °enviers of Land in Northumberland
praying for relief against a grievance they suffered an-
tler the Horse'Taa. The lion. Member said, be was
happy to observe that his Majesty's Guvernment intend-
ed to afford relief to all persons suffering under the in-
convenience.—Ordered.to lie on the table.
Sir T. ACLASO presented two petitions from De-
vonshire complaining of agricultural distress.—Ordcr.
ed to lie on the table.

YORKSHIRE P LLS HILL.
Mr. WYNN moved the second reading of the York
shire Polls Regulation Bill.
3:r. CHALIMNEII opposed the Bill. It arose, lie
thought. out of the fancy of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
and was not called for by the county. it tended to le-
price the electors of a considerable portion of their elec-
tive franchise, and lie was not aware of any crime they
had committed to deserve that punishment. He moved,
as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time
that day six months.
• Mr. RANISOEN seconded the amendment. The
Bill, lie said. was opposed to the wishes of the coon-
Itv, which had expressed its opinion through the Grand
Jury.
Mr. WILBERFORCE opposed the Bill. Ile thought
it would take away much of the weight and influence of
the great and wealthy county of York.
Mr. WYNN supported the Bill. lie denied that it
would have the effect stated by the Hon. Member. It
was, he contended, a necessary consequence of the Bill,
which gave to Yorkshire the right of sending two addi-
tional Members to that House. The object of the Bill
was to prevent the immense expence attending contested
elections for the county. That expence had sometimes
been as much as 100,0001. a side., without the payment
of a single shilling for an illegal purpose. There were
no fewer tlrau 13,000 freeholders, who polled at the last
contest, from the West Riding only. lie thought the
Grand Jury had entered into a subject foreign from
their duty when they pronounced an opinion on this
Bill. He had, however, nu wish to press the Bill, if the
house should appear disinclined to encourage it.
Mr. CHALLONER explained.
Lord NOR MANBY opposed the Bill. In the county
to which the Bill related he knew there was a general
indifference felt towards it, and some cases of strong
objection.
Lord 110THAM contended that the Bill would be
beneficial to the county of York, and denied that they
bad any reason to believe that the county was
to it.
Mr. RAMSDEN explained.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that if he could feel that this'
Bill would be for the advantage of the county, he owed
it a debt that he could never repay, and he should there-
fore be most ready to support tncb a measure. But he
believed that it would be a positive injury to the landed
proprietors of the West Riding, and he should there-
fore oppose it.
Lord HOTHAM explained.
Admiral SOTHERON considered that it would be for
the benefit of all parties that the county should be kept
entire.
Sir. DENISON opposed the Bill.
Mr. I)UNGOMBE made a few observations on the
same side.
Mr. S. SUMNER thought the West Riding ought
not to be allowed to rids over the North and East
Ridings.
The House then divided—For the second reading, 27
—Against it, 59—Majority against the Bill, 32.
Upon our re-admission to the gallery a conversation
was going forward, in which Mr. S. Rice, Mr. (Joni
burn, Mr. Plunkett. and Sir J. Newport took part. Its
but the
of
e subdrelndecatre.lated to
the portcharwg eescaogual di
against not collect,
C hi fB e
An Hon.Matainse. whose name we could notascertain,
wished to ask whether it was the intention of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers to make any alteration in the duties
upon East India sugar ?
The CHANCENI.OR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that the subject was under the consideration of Govern-
ment, but he could not say what course would be pur-
sued. He thought it most likely that the duties would
remain as they were.
Mr. GRENFELL put a question relative to the Bank
Charter, which we could not hear.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that lie could etd say at what time the lloverninent
would propose a renewal of the Bank Charter, or whe-
ther it would be done in this Session or cot.
CONSTABLES IN MILANO Will..
Mr. GOULBURN rose to move the second reading of
this Bill. lie pointed out the state of the Police with
regard to the appointment of Constables, and 'showed'
its defects. He also alluded to the difficulties of arrest-
ing persons in Ireland, which could seldom be effected
with the concurrence or without the opposition of the,
population. From these causes, to be efficient in his
office, a constable ought to devote his whole time to its'
ditties. The Grand Juries who now appointed them
could not grant such salaries as would enable them to
do so, and in consequence the office of constable had
fallen into a state which it was most desirable to avoid.
If they wished to make the people of Ireland respect the
law, they must endeavour to ensure its administration
with effect. The means of accomplishing this, he was
about to propose to the House. Ile was aware that lie
might he met nit!, the objection that it was against the
principles of the Constitution to vest such a power in the
hands of the Government as the appointment of these
constables. But he thought the first constitutional duty
of every wan was to enforce the observance of the laws.
The appointment of the chief constable of a barony was
no new power in the hands of Government. Several
previous acts had authorised this, and the object now in
view fully authorised them in extending the power to
the common constables. He should prope.,e by the Bill
that the ditties of a constable should be limited to the
maintenance of the peace, under the directions of the
Magistrates. He knew that the House bad not always
mat what it expected from the Magistracy of Ireland,
but he thought the present measure would remove one
of the difficulties which prevented their acting with that
effidency which rendered a Magistracy respectable.—
The House was aware that there were extraordinary

"

measures of police is,ste io operation, which bad been
attended with the most happy results; and he did not
wean to imply any thing unfavourable to those measures
when he proposed others, which he considered would
operate as a preventive, instead of a remedy for outrage.
% arious Petitions were to be found upon their Journals,
pointing uut, in.much stronger terms than he presnuaed
to use, the defects of the police in Ireland. One '4
4 '
these, f the county of Oalway, also alluded to the
means by which they were to be removed. lie thought
DO man wonl.l object to the propos:tion that an effective
police in Ireland was desirable. lir proposed this mea-
sure to the House as the opening of a new era for that

country. By it he hoped to prevent the necessity of
keeping op the large military establishment there, and
of eitildityine military foree upon all occasions, ,skich it
was so desirable to avoid unless in cataPS of irell
myth's). With these tints he consdentiv propraea the
to•cond reading of the Bill.
Sir 11. PARNELL thought that unless the Right
Hon. Gentiesnau could find the means of constaot com-
munication between the counties and the Govern:ow,
his plan of police would not be snecessful. Ilecontendel
that the Bight Hon. liontletnan had no: fairly ileserdo4
the defective state of the Magistracy of Ireland.- The
number of improper persons in the Magistrue nos so
great that to intrust to them the d•rection of time con-
stables wai likely to bring the law into still greater dis-
doraerlusoliflyeteyhntale:lesoallarevaagr:esilmttLhisAel
respect. Ile thought the Uovernineut ought to rake
opon themselves the task. they ought to take the resuin-
blotto( r etifinoo tit:
hoped
nin
not
ptt
ehme
ofaMagistracy.ngye,t
thiun
l'i:tottilltrPa9ghees
they being themselves landholders. Another etiluf the
defective Police was the injury it did to gab* credit,
owing to the general distrust in the administration of
the law. The industrious man could not get the rermt
he deserved, beimuse.every ones was afraid of g
redress in case of fraud. Thus the capital of the
try could not be employed in the most .ilvantaz-,us
channels. It appeared to him that the remedy uitica
the Right Honourable Gentleman meant to propose Was
the establishment of constables armed. mounted, and se-
more& in every respect resembling the French polirr.
He thought the hest watts would be those of removing
the powers which Grand Juries !posses-441, and placire
them in the hands of Magistrates, as in England, tied
appointing constitutional constables. Ile should bar
no objection to the latter being assisted be inch Oleo's
as the night lion. Gentleman proposed. it these alter-
lotions were made in the Bill he should be disposed to
support it. He contended that the removal of sbe pre-
sent constables and the introduction of these artued OUR
would be likely•to disgust resident Gentlemen, and make
them become absentees. Another gronud of objection
to the measure was the expense which it would incur.
This would fall upon the uuentice, and it seould amount
to about 4,0001. a-year for each, and they now paid only
about SOW. far the maintenance of ail their con,taides.
He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would comen: to
send the Bill to a Committee above stairs.
Mr. PLUNKETT said that with respect to the gene-
ral principle of the measure, there could be no gaffer-
ence of optuion. He had conversed with many Gentle-
men acquainted with the state of Ireland, and lie never
found any one of them deny the necessity of amenaing
the state of the police in that country. His Right lion.
Friend (Sir 11. Parnell) had, with a great share of now
dour, admitted that necessity, but he regretted to find
that lie was not inclined to agree to the proposition
now before the house. The system of police in Ireland,
ur rather the want of system, was miserably defectiveitt
every sense. It was sought by the present measure tv
amend it, and establish a system which would nut only
abolish crime, but teml to procure ohedieuce to the laws:
—(Hear.)—His lion. Friend had talked of it as a mea-
sure incompatible with constitutional principles. Ile
could not brag himself to view it in that light. It net.
thew made ewer Mese% new lam, nor new modes °fps-
nish:nent. The only altered-on that was intended went
to take the appointment of county othcers from the
Grand Jury, and place it in the hands of the Crown. It
was mot unconstitutional that the Crown, which was the
*tangelo of the Executive, should have the nomination of
its own officers...4liter, bear.)—Nothing could bare
been more unfortunate for the preservation of the year
of a county than the mode of leaving to the brand Juries
the appointment of constables. It only gave the power
tet each Juror of providing for a meritorious servant or
sem dependent; and among twenty-four Members tie
responsibility Was so divided, that to no person could 1.-
attached the odium of an improper nomination.
appointment by the Lord Lieutenant was more likely tv
be free from those ill consequences. It was possibil
that he might be imposed upon by improper recornme-
dation ; but still the Bill provided a remedy in that case
by monthly returns. The measure, as one of economy,
was to be recommended ; the whole expense would sr
pear to amount to little more than the cost of the v-
omit system. There were 230 baronies in Ireland:
Head Constable to each, at a salary of 1301. a yea-.
were • -C3. ?,51"
Other Constables at 35!. aim each • 17.51"
Four Inspectors at 500/. a-year each 2,0 f"
NA
Ten Police Magistrates, at 11001 a-year each

The expense of the present system was, of the
General Police - - - 23,901
The Extra Police - - - 1i[2,113
- all':
The Revenue Police - -
Military assistance - - - 21,5:0
Though tbere was a difference of 40,0001. in e‘•
pease, there would be more than that of value save ;R
amending the morals of the people. He trusted the
there would not be a necessity of making the Hill a pv-
petual measure, as he would gladly hail the time when i;
could be dispensed with.
Sir E. KhRRISON supported the Hilt
Sir H. PARNEL explained.
General HART, in a low tone of voice, made some
i n
PN'
servations relative to the conduct of Magistrates, whir
we could not collect.
Mr. S. RICE opposed the measure. He said It ws4 3
proposition of a most monstrous nature, unsuited
the character of the Irish people. It would have t!';
effect of turning public opinion from the law, instead VI
bringing. it in its favour. He was convinced, that i.
the Magistracy of Ireland were purged from the dro-s
in which they were now confined, that they welt"
under the present law, be equal to support the tr.e•
trinity of the country. In the County of Lengron.
the eificacv of a superior and intelligent Magistracy n.,
evident. There was, in that county, but one 313gistrs'e
to an extent of 25 square miles, and 5,000 inhabit,
sot..,
In the counties of Limerick and Tipperary, there it,
a Magistrate to ;1 square miles, and to Dee inhabit-
ants. Ile called on the Government to purify the boq
te
of Magistrates, as the most certain made to effect t
mostpreservation of order. 'f iii' jinn. Gentleman allideil
the authority of the Right Him. Gentleman oppelite
(we believe .!r. Peel) against the Gill. On
hat forpre
me
debate, that Right Hon. Gentlemen said, ... ta at
sent, when the district ceased to be disturbed, the P'
lice establishment was chanted,but that if it should rO,
heroine permanent, it would degenerate into loe•
The present Bill, as embedt to make the police et
blishment permanent, ,he was convinced. he i'''
I ductive of the pernicious effect which the Right 10
Gentleman then apprehended.
Sir J. NEWPOR'r hoped the House would pros
with deliberation, and before they adopted this wesog:
look at the efforts made in the county of beeOrd av,
eleewliere to effect a Reform, and to deterring?. ty -
these seemed on the point of being croweied wit 11`
[ real, whether this was the time to adopt a total c 814

If this Bill tasted, be begged to ask what
and bad that the most respectable members
wee? would remain in the Commission ?
wised by I of them who were now in
say, that they would feel themselves de-
passed, and would immediately resign.
is in ail ita provisions completely at variance
inriple which bad ever been regarded as
•ial to Ireland; that which went to assimi-
dnistration of law there to the administra-
n England. It went to place an insuperable
etween, and initead of inducing the Gentry
home, and spend their money there, it gave
'mires for alienating themselves, and for
sir capital elsewhere. He therefore could
• the . On his conscience he de•
he slionlei feel from the moment this Bill
h any thing like the provisions which it
ted, be should no longer regard Ireland as

retary PEEL was of opinion that it would
'e to place the Governors of Counties in
• a totally different footing. If it were
sjectionable to authorise the Lord Lieu:,
ppoint Lord Lieutenants of Counties. he
to be hot a technical objection. He hail,
o objection to the title of Governor being re•
he want d was a connecting link between the
it and each county, to Quake them accurately
with th- elsaracter of those who were placed
Fistracy. He was ces6tient that very great
wouhl result from thus enabling this Lord.
to re-model -the Governors of the counties.— I
r occasion be had said he saw great difficulty
of reforming the magistracy of Ireland. lie
hcnlties still, bat after the attempt bail been
pon, and Nome progress made, be rlieulul be
oin the house to wish to tee it abandoned.
a provision in this Bill with respect to the
it of Magistrates, which he thought ought to
I. The remarks which be had made on a
,sion, which had been alluded to on his intro-
Peace P Lion Hill, were applied to the
f Stipendiary Magistrates to every partof !re-
lied thong& this ',wild lead toe He
consent to give power to appoint Stipendiary
tin cases of great emergency in order to pre-
.l- evils, and that under circumstances of very
-nee. With respect to the Police of Ire-
:reed that something must be done. lie took
universally conceded. It was to be borne
at now when no external foe was to he
was toned necessary to keep up an army of
ups, besides 4,000 yeomanry. Was not this
lost sufficient to prove that it was necessary
me amelioration with respect to the police of
e one county of Ireland twenty-six murders
erpetratest and but one of the parties eon-
been brought to justice. Could any thing
peessaty than to 'apply a resnetly to an evil
When the expense of this measure was talked
it to be horns in mind that it might be ex•
tail to a redaction of the military force now
audit' bat one or two regiments should in
!e be dispensed with, the house would see
ild effect a great saving. Some Gentlemen
is.d that the pollee of Ireland should be assi-
that of England. This he admitted to be do-
t denied that it Will practicable. The Pre-
lice to be established under this Bill wattlil
aye for arming than the ronstabies appointed
ad Juries. and past experience-had proved
Beers thee appointed were far less efficient
giosioisisgetelpbee called pot by the Lord Lie*
. Hythis Bill Ate Itlgkff•
id proposes! to reduce the salaries of the of-
employed, so that no constable would receive
35/. per annum. All that he would request
a was not, in the present stage of the Bill, to
a plan for the amelioration of the police in
It might be possible to introduce considerable
nts in its progress, in order to check evils ad-
xist, and to be enormous. He saw no neces-
sting this as a party question, and hoped that
with the importance of giving Ireland a bet-
they would suffer the Bill to go to a Com-

7:RCROMBY said, though lie admitted two
first, that the Magistracy of Ireland was de-
s!, secondly, that the higher and middling or-
aught to look up to Government for protec-
r than to themoklves and consequently that
lial measure was necessary; yet, though re-
le opposed the present Bi. He thought the
rf ameliorating the present system would be
e Magistracy. This would be the most effec-
tation which could take place. It was idle
low/Tomcat not being able to acquire infor-
en they possessed the most ample means. It
ors to introduce the present Bill without
the last and most constitutional remedy, that
the present Magistracy. The Bill would
e the Magistrates under the controul of the
by depriving them of any authority over
halting Goverooment the source to which they
ron every occasion. It would also have the
,sting a low jobbing magistracy, leagued
'nstables. If any means could be devised for
• of tossing every thing dune by Government
g by the gentry, sone was more likely to at-
tject than the present Bill. A most respects.
rate told him, that if the Bill passed he would
ommission. He believed this pernicious and
measure emanated from the Marquess 11 el-
has said before, that the course the Marquess
vas pursuing in India was like that which
was pursuing in „Europe.; but be believed
measure afforded a stronger parallel.

rquiess of LONDONDERRY said, though
t be much d'fference as to the details of the
re anxious for tile amelioration of the Police
Ireland. anti he therefore hoped the House
r the Bill to be committed, and take the dis.
its particular provisions on a futureday.
'THORPE considered the regulations of this
of such a charscter that the operation of the
rat have the effect of drawing every man of
ty out of the NLigistracy of Ireland.
RANT, after some preliminary observations,
his :egret that hr could not support the Dill,
with the duty which lie owed to Ire;auil and
Ile fat himself obliged to oppose nut only
of the Bill but the general r:nciple upon
is founded. He was most willing to admit'
hat the great i•hject of Bovernment was to
rice was duly administered. But care must
a in attaining this great object other inter.
ot sacrificed. There were in a free govern•
important interests which ought nut to hr
Rehire he present measure was resorted to hr
1.11 why A4llll. system less ohjen:ionahle in its
not tried ?—(ilear, hear.) Thia Bill, it
the House, would go to place the whole of
ler an armed police, subject to the immediate
the Lord Lieutenant.—(Hear, bear.) Such
vas altogether at variance with the principle
iovernment. The Right Hon. Dentleman
ented ie detail on the organization of the
of Ireland, observing that while there were
itrates in that country whose conduct was
ehensible, there were others who had never
important trust reposed in them. After
e arguments upon this point, he proceeds
that the measure now proposed ought not to