The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-07-17 00:00:00

THE STA'

N. •

1

gistrate ought to be able to convince tope
neighbpuring litagistrate of the necetatei
would effete' some ground Of protection. The .
in question was given not to Justices merely, .4111 a
Magistrates in general, many of whom, Weems's of,
little Borengh Tosyns fee teample, wero.,the amt.,
oat Resons in wild to be entrneted with tangrne
=gessos power. Ho. objected leo teethe words rea-
-1 unable tftne.in opining the door, the construction of
which might lead to very serious consequences. He
lama of the Secret Committee, and God hawses, there
I was no great'setret ; but there were some things die.
L ' closed in it which served greatly to quiet his mind.
The combinations were mischievous, no doubt; bat
k wu ridiculous to say that any persons were trained
to arms for the purpose of overturning the Govern-
ment. The Right Honourable Gentleman proceeded
to relate the evidence of a person who was twisted
la, and who gave an account of what had passed at
ape of their meetings. ONe person alleged they
Were countenanced by the Duke of York; another
proposed that Sir Francis Burdett should be Dictator
for two years ; a third said, let that power be given
to Lord Cochrane, Sir Francis Burdett, and Mr.
Whitbread. With such silly ale-house and visionary
projects were the persons at these meetings occupied.
His conviction was, that one hundred stand of arms
had not been taken altogether.—The Right Ho.
nourable Gentleman proceeded to state, that there
was no evidence of any depot whatever having been
formed. If there had, he would have given Go-
vernment credit for bringing the matter forward
much rooster, the disturbances in question hacingcom.
menced in the mouth of February. In the Committee
they could get no evidence phatever as to Notting.
hamehire, the county where all the disturbances took
their rise, and where every kind of outrage had been ,
committed fur four or five weeks. But in this county,
it now appeared, that the people had been perfect.,l
ly satisfied from the moment the Bill, in which theyl
mere interested, had been brought into that Ilouse4j
It, from this, appeared, that time people had no otherl
object in view than to procure redress of grievances,
teal or supposed.; and, in such circumstances, ought
not the House to pause before they passed a Bill like
the present? The greatest grievances must result
from the Bill, unless security was given, that no
search should be made, except vv here there was not
a probability only, but a certainty of gutting arms.
The very act of searching a man's house for such
an object must cause him to be regarded either as
a marked man, or as a martyr. Ile called out the
,house not, in the first instance, to violate the funda-
mental
principle of the Constitution—that a man's
house is his castle. Ile saw that what he said made I
no way with Gentlemen on the other side; but he
must still protest against the present measure. Ile I
was convinced they would all live to lament the day ;
they passed the present Bill. The facts required to
justify the measure were not before the House.—
Whit an engine would the present measure not prove
against us in the hands of the Ruler of the Conti-
nent ? Would he not tell his subjects—" See to
what a state I have reduced your enemies, the Eug.
lists, by the operations of the Berlin and Milan De-
crees ? I have driven them first to the necessity of
abandoning their Orders in Council, which they pro-
fessed to have adopted as measures of retaliation ;
and now I have driven them to make an enactment
that their country is in a state of rebellion!" To I
this clause of the Bill ho (Mr. Tierney) never (mild
agree.
Mr. BATIIUST supported the clause, as being es-
sentially necessary.
Mr. WILBERFORCE epprOved of the authority 1
being vested in two Magistrates,, though in other re-
spects le.l thought the clause highly essential.
Sir GEORGE WA RRENDER also concurred in
thinking the clause in question the essential part of
the Bill.
Lord CASTLEREAGH contended,t ha t if one Ma-
gistrate could not act, bet that they mast wait, in !
all instances, till two Magistrates could be found,'
,he hatids of the Magistrates must be completely tied
up, and that it would be better to leave out the clause
ultog
Air. V.; [,BRA !lAA! BOOTLE said there would
be the greatest difficulty, many parts of Lanca-
shire,
of getting two Maghtrates together • and if'
the clause was so amended it would be totally inef-
fectual.

General TARLETOri replied, that the reference
he wes about to make was simply for illustratiou. It
would befivollected, that General Abercrombie, at
that time—
Mr. WALLACE again interposed, and called the
Wm. General to order.
General TARLETON said. that his object was t
rove, that the Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh) ,
was wholly incapable of discharging any of the
as-
daous duties of the State at this perilous crisis. He
teas not a fit man to govern the helm of State during
the storm which now assailed our shattered bark ; he
doubted sot the Noble Lord's intrepidity, but he
might have had an opportunity of evincing it by
sinking with the Royal George.
The question was then put and earried,and on the
*potion of Mr, VANSITTART, the was re-com-
Vatted.
Mr. ABERCROMBIE opposed that portion of
tho meatore which related to the searching for arms,
piece he thought that too much power was given to
the Magistracy, who, en a mere surmise, or even less,
were potshard to enter the house of any individual
and deprive him of bisineans of defence. lie recoil:- j
mended that this authority should be limited, to cases
where depositions were made upon oath of the secre-
ting of arras. He was extremely unwilling to give
too much power to the civil authorities, and thought
that -where the Magistrates required aid, it would
b wiser for them to call in the aid of the Military. ,
Lord CASTLEREAGH expressed his surprise at
the concluding sentence of the lion. Gentleman's!
speech ; his Lordship was by no means disposed to I
turn Ids back upon the shit power, and substityte
soldiery in their place, where such a proceeding was
not absolutely necessary. It was true that Ministers ,
had received no intelligence of any new outrages,
but the House would recollect, that it was the very
principle of an organised system, to remain quiet 1
pntil every arrangement for open attack was vim-
pleted ; and if temporary tranquillity did exist, it I
should not be forgotten that it might be produced by
design, for the sake of lulling Parlioment and the'
pountry into security until the Legislature were Ilia-
misled for the year. With respect to the power?
given to Magistrates, the true question to he asked
was, whether most was to be dreaded from the insur-
gents or from the Magistrates : if the latter were
more terrific to the Hon. Gentteman, he was right in ,
opposing this Bill, but he certainly was the only
man in the country who entertained such a prepos-
terous opinion. 'fhe object was to communicate
such authority as would enable the civil officers to se-
pare the lives and property of the peaceable inhabi-
tants, and if less were delegated,' the effect
might be merely to harass and torment the well-
disposed, without punishing the discontented.
The Government had justly great confidence in the
discretion of the Magistrates in the disturbed dis-
tricts.

Mr. BENNET enquired what security the coun-
try could have that the Magistrates would do their
duty? In considering this important question, he
could not help recollecting what had been the result
of the system in Ireland which was now about to be
established for the first time ili England ; and to
chew its pernicious consequences he read to the
jiouse several of the public orders issued, by Sir R.
Abercrombie. The 'Honourable Gentleman, in it.
lustration of the cruelties committed in Ireland,
goad an extract from a Proclamation of Major-Gene-
eat Morrison, requesting Officers to abstain from
e setting fire to villages and houses, as the punishment
seldom or never fell an the guilty. By such conci-
liatory measures was Lnrc Csrierailis at last ena.
bled to save Ireland. He wished to prevent the ne-
cessity of ever recurring to clemency ; he wished that
rit, no such powers should be ever given, as might have a
tendency to inflame the country.
Mr. ISRAGGE BATHURST said the abases in
Ireland had nothing to do with the conduct of Ma-
gistrates in the disturbed districts. Ile proceeded to
describe the nature of the existing disturbances, and
. contended that the powers given to Magistrates were
by no means too great.
Mr. TLG HE had no connection with this country,
and knew sery little of the habits of the people ; and
it was eith the greatest reluctance that he rejected to
• the powers now propcsed to be given to Magistrates.
ne was inclined to think, from all that he had ever
beard of the English Magistrates, that they stood
higher than those of any other country ; but the 1
powers now given were in their very nature suet. as
could hardly be executed without leading 'o see,. i.
--The first clause empeeertd a 241,%.;1.tv.:e to appoint
any person to break into any house to search for
Inns. Who suggesteu the persons likely to possess
arm, ? The ieformers : persons who now went
about, 10 in a band, in fantastic dresses, and met
on moors, like the witches in Macbeth, to excite
disturbances which were for their interest.
Mr. GII.IN proposed as an amendment,lhat the
warrant to search, should be given by two Justices
pf Peace instead of one. °
Lord CAiTLEREAGII objected to the difficulty
of finding two Magistrates iu time, in some parts of
the country. .. .
Mr. TiERNET thought the, number of Magis-
trates in that ease ought to be increased, and quell.
feed in something like the manner of Members of that
Douse. He professed the greatest respect for Ma.
gistrates in general, who were Witted to much con-
ltideration ; but it was impossible not to be aware,
that there mere two sorts of Justices of Peace. One
description, country gentlemen living on their estates,
pnd dispensing good offices to every one around
them ; and another description of persons who were
perpetually applying to the
.Lord Chancellor to he
lout into the Magistracy, not with a view of interest
perhaps, though that might sometimes also be the
a so, het for the sake of obtaining importance, that
they might draw by their exertions the attention of
Ooeernment on them, and that it might be said,
t' Q I he takes' up more people in a year than ney
Magistrate in the county."—[.4 laugh.]—On such a.
prson sending a Constable, a person always of the
lowest orders, 'With a Invent to search any house in
44 night time, tee most serious consequences-might
happen. They were to dig for arms, as ihe Noble
Lend expressed ; " for
Attie orchard.
end consateeni
The power
lictad
I°, b.

Mr. HOBHOUSE also enforced the necessity of
vesting the power in one Mrrr,istrate only.
Mr. HAWKINS IIii.OWNE supported the origi-
nal clause.
Mr. MARTIN, of Galway, also supported, and'
observed, that with regard to its-operation, notbingl
unpleasant could result from' it, provided no illegal'
and tumultuary resistance was offered.
Mr. SHERIDAN said that he certainly did not
mean to have offered a word in the Committee, re-
serving his objections against the principle of the
Bill upon the Report being broaght up ; but what he
had hoard from the lion. Gettletnan who spoke last,
and from other Members, induced him to depart
from that resolution. His Hon. Friend who spoke
last, had maintain/A tiles, with regard to the oputa-:
tion of the Bill, there could be no strife where them:
was no opposition ; certainly that was true, and so
he might have said, that no rape could be committed
where there wag no opposition.—[Lisughter.]-111s

logy set 4 by the Honourable and !,earned Gentle.
, . .
I. Jill deehad it *TOR the race of 'the Rupert. The Lord CAS FLERRAGH contended, that the ana2
;,I'whole hilliness remanded him of the sham -plots and
land, in 1807, and those now proposed with re.
tr.oespimcies of 1793. He reinembeted what were : an, between the measures adopted with respect to
net funds Ife ace to the.present disturbances i r" I el
the alanos vid fictions of that Period. lie roman. :,
because., in the former case, severe and
lwwereel,gowllbee:teditinwourdesprresdto su4pbFrtoreatddtbileatdia"6.ectetlr ;not apply ;
proved Pim heavy penalties devolved on those detected in con.
.n ..itg.m...., did
Mr. ABERCROMBIE alluded to en expression
end organise them ; and yet, it was
I oath at the Old Bailey, I
t at the whole amount of , coaling arms.
' those funds was 91. 15%—P liagh.l—That wits
And how their Eschetteer„—[,//aegki—Atiother report toe of an Honourable Gentleman (Catoael Martin) in a
ira conspiracy at that period he 'remembered, with former debate, representing the Irish Parliament as
ali the i4lditiens of ;rm., paining, eke,
did it turn out ? Nine tailors and one pike were dis-
, covered in a back gartet in Tooley-street,hallooing on the Irish Government against the people
iof that country, lie asked, whether that was the
in thellie- spirit in which they were thee to legislate 1
also, that l
Party in Ireland, during these unfortunate troubles,
Lord CASTLEREAGH admitted, that the Loyal
rough,--[laughter.]--He recollected,
trip : were in a sort of robelligien against the Government
such was the eagerness to find plots at that time, that i
: itself—by taking forcibly into their own hands what
a Magistrate said to him on the occasion,,66
they believed,to he the most prompt and effectual de.
lyoung and tender mother ever dwelt with more fond-
i fence of their own lives and properties.
uess upon her first-born child, than we did upon
i that pike!---(G.neral laughter:l-11e had been led
, to say much more than he intendedcould ;
. RAI,I) supported the clause.
Mr. SMITH opposed, and Mr. WM. FITZGE.
not help expressing his decided objection to the Bill,
• framed as it was upon the Report of a Committee i Mr, MARTIN (of Galway) explained.
! where no evidence was permitted to guide their de,l
against subjecting themselves to the great responsibi.
111 r. HUTCHINSON warned the Commitee
lily of legislating in utter ignorance of the true na.
• cision. He would have had every sort of plrole evi.
ture of those proceedings which had been laid down
deuce : examinations and cross-examinations, full
precedent. It had been again asserted by the
and substantial proof, before the Government dared
Ire- Noble Viscount (Castlereagh) that no tortures, no
to suspend the Constitution of the country.— as a
' excesses of any kind had been committed against the
[Hear, hear 1--In the worst exigencies of.
;.people of Ireland, previous to the commencement of
. land, no such law as the present was proposed. A
the rebellion in 1798. He (Mr. Ilutehinson) had la
power for disarming the people, indeed, was grant-
i his place upon a former night denied that assertion,
ed, and so was a certain power to Magistrates,
; and he now rose again to give that assertion of the
' but they-were somewhat different. Ile well remetn-
Noble Lord's his most .unqualified contradiction.
bered the discussions at that period. He well remem.
i lie was therefore at complete issue with the Noble
bered the foul and unmanly debates in that House, :
' Viscountvand he was prepared to prove by evidence
' when it was a question about searching for arms in
the women's bed-chambers, as to how long a woman
might be allowed to dress in, before she opened the I at. their bar, that he was but toe well grounded Inc
door for the Officers to search. Some Gentlemen 1 the charges he then made. Ile solemnl chared the
proposed seven minutes; he, without any great ef., Government of Lord Camden, of whiyh the Noble
fort of chivalrous feeling ventured to suggest ten mi- '
I Lord was fare considerable period the ostensible part,
i nutes—[a laugh]—but the Noble Lord opposite,
•
! and for the whole period the confidential adviser ; lie
! solemnly charged thatGevernment with permitting tor%
'• proposed that a reasonable time should be granted,
which was at last carried.. That Act, however,
1 hich originated, with his Right lion. Friend (Mr.
ore), much to his honour, did not confer any thing I
ture throughout Ireland before the rebellioe.--." I as,
I sert," said Mr. Hutchinson, " that under the eyes of
'that Government, for 2 long years before the rebellion,
'
the people of Ireland were suffering under every In,
tike the powers upon Magistrates intended to be con- I
flictien of outrage that could pad them to resistance,
j !erred by the present Bill. No Magistrate had power I
to search for arms merely upon suspicion, but u
Pen ! I assert, that for two years before thb rebellion,ery the
' -
oath; and information was to be transmitted to the Lord -stem of infliction was prosecuted through every
means of torture and outrage, breaking open of
I Lieutenant, and an authority from him, or from his 1
houses at the dead of night, flogging, picketting,
Chief Secretary,was to be granted before theMagist rate.
burning, half-hanging, violation of women, depreda,
I could act ; thus making the h:xecutive Government re-1
sponsilie. [ffereMr.Sheridanreadone ufthe clauses.]
i lion of property, licensed plunder, legulised mei
,
I Good Goo! (continued the Right Hon. Gentleman) I der_[lictir, hear !]—ehorrors tlret but to think of
compare the two occasions I—Compare the two A cis !
was sufficiently dreadful—to detail, disgusting. To
:
i —Compare the provocations iu the one country and be conscious that they once happened might-have it,
in the other I fie should have thought there was some
iuse in warning an English House of Commons how
j wisdom in the proceedings of Ministers, did there
1 they opened an avenue for the introduction of suck
now exist any Perils—hut they came like sea-gulls, calamities. [hear, hear!] They knew not what
"screaming when toe storm was over.—Another and a ,Ireland had suffered—let them beware how they
took the first step that was to lead this county to a
sufficient remedy had been applied; the disturbances I
knowledge of such misery." [Hear, hear!] He
were confessedly decreasing, and yet such a measure.
again solemnly pledged'himself, If required, to prove
as the *sent, which cowjd wily hive Cie effect ofl
I at their bar, by undoubted evidence, the truth of all
irritating, was to be proposed! Ile hoped he had put
the intended clause in such a light as, would- make it ' the assertions he had advanced. [Cries oif..tfcar,
...
impose
it should remain. hear n
ThrATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he was not The Committee then divided-
at all surprised at the contusion to which the Right Ayes, 77--Nnes, 18—MnJority, 59.
i lion. Gentleman had come, as he totally disbelieved
We understood a second divistari took place on the
' the Report of the Committee. Certainly, if that
Repo rt was false there could bo, no occasion for
,each a meaaure aswas now proposed, and every per- depot empowering Magistrates to lodge in a sala
the arms so taken—
son on thinking with the Right H Ayes, 75—Fors, 16--Majority, Vl.on. Gentleman ;clause,
The Huse then resumed,
must come to the same conclusion. It was lucky
'for the Right lion. Geutlem in, however, that he had ordered ,oche received to-morrowand the Report was
Iso local knowledge which justified the Report. He LATE OVERTURES.
I Mr. SHERIERN rose to postpone his Motion
contained in the
contended, however, that the facts h
respecting Mr. %min, till Monday; and also to give
d
Report were such as fully justified the Bill, an_di e
cautioned the House how to give credit to the eu-
notice of another for Tuesday, for the production of
sion that, because the disturbances were now sus-
the Correspondence between the Duke of Briscoe
end the Noble Lord. Ile approved of the Answer
pended, during the Assizes, and while Parliament
;wen to the French Minister, because he thought he
was deliberating upon them, that therefore they tiadl
tad never read of a morn insidious, perfidious, and
ceased. He could state, however, that very recent , , _ , ,
I insulting proposition.—[Near, ion.— ear, t* [II !sear!) He was stir,
intelligence had arrived of intimidation having been ,
used, threatening the lives of persons if they gave I prised that no other Member had taken up the quest
evidence were de- i
against those who to be tried. Ile ,
tem before. He wished to know if any reply had
'
precated the levity with which the subject had been
' been made by the French Government, to the tad=
treated by the Right lion. Gentleman. The object of I ewer given by the Noble Lord?
I Lord CASTLEREAGH replied in the negative.
the clause was to keep the arms of loyal people in safe He was glad that the conduct of Government, iq that
custody, and prevent the insurgents from getting i
-- -'-- ' ' - - - - - - wished , instan.- had met the approbatiou of the Right on.

them.. Ile had alluded also to Ireland ; but he iv:,
he had read the date of the Act from which he had
read some clauses. Was not the date 1810? And was
that the period when Ireland was convulsed with
outrages ? (flair, hear !] How easily the Right
lion. Gentleman believed outrages that did not exist,
and disbelieved them when they did exist. [Hear,
hear!] In fact, that act which he alluded to had
been passed, because all disturbances had ceased in j
Ireland, and it was intended to mitigate the provi.
sions of the Act of 1797. Ile would ask the Right .
Hon. Gent. what had been the Act in force for 13
years before 1810?
Mr. SHERIDAN said, the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman had expressed some satisfaction
;;•gt his ( Nt Sheridan's) luck in having no local
knowledge of the facts stated in the Report. Now, in ;
ally way, he thought that congratulation unkind, for,
if he had such local knowledge, it might remove the
error under which War be laboured; mud, be.;

ins, ice,
•
Gentleman.
VICE-CHANCELLOR CREATION BILL.
Sir SAM U EL ROMILLY,on the question that the
Bill be read a first time, expressed his anxiety, even
at that late hour, to give his opposition to the. Bill
in its first stage. It was a Bill easing the Lord Chan-
cellor of the greater portion of his duties, and at the
same securing to him alll the fees and emoluments in
the same manner as if he had discharged those duties.
[Hear, hear!] He contended also, that instead of
remedying, it would greatly encrease the number of
la, and add intolerably to the expence of
Mr. Bankes, Mr. Abercrombie, Mr. Wm. Smith,
land Mr: Creevey, followed on the same side, strong-
ty protesting against the indecency of pressing a Bill
of each' importance at so late& period in the Session.
Creevey added, that he always found twe:ve
o'clock at night, in the month of July, the moot

, _...... ....—_ -ppareL - - - -
- -
objections to the clause in enestioii were strorig. it sides, he ought rather to have wished that- he Nir. t seasonable time in the woild for hUrrying a job through
went, not only to take arms from the suspected dis- . Sheridan) bad a good stout estate in Yorkshire, in ! the House [a lattgle]; that when Judges were to be
*loyal, but from the man who was suspected of timi- which there would have been nothing unfortunate.—! made by jobs the joke became rather serious.
Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Bathurst and Mr. Simeon,
dity. The Bill was intended to provide against the • [.4 laugh.] The arguments of the Honourable and !
forcible seizure olarms; and yet, what did the law • Learned, G'entletrian, upon the 'expediency of the spoke in support of the Bill.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, which,
in question propose to do ' To emulate, to copy, . clause, that it went to provide safe custody for the 1
the very crime it condemned.—EHeat !)—lt was em- arms of loyal persons, to prevent them from falling however, did sot take place. The Bill was read a
powering its own agents to plunder arms from all into the hands of the insurgents, it was impossible to.. first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a
who had them in ssession. And at what time was say where they would stoß. Government might i second time on Tuesday.—The other Orders of the
it so acting .At moment when we were told the equally say, we bear the
; ' a ilwrgents are amassing . Day were then disposed of,and the House t4ourned
crisis of our &Weirs was such, we ought to be an funds to. support their body; now you have a great . :at half past one.
armed nation!—[Hear 9—*Yet, the Government -many pound . notes, and some silver, and silver
rtrere now
, trying to make us a disarmed nation!--- spoons—we will take all this into our custody, lest FRENCH PAPERS.
I.lJear .]—And Where was the cans,? Did the —wiew......
pep- it should fall into worse hands, especially- as you
pie, for ebosesake it was pretended the were iegis- hare no arms to defend it. [A laugh.] He knew Nan, Jo.* T.—The arrival of her Majesty the
loin, ask it of the Goveanment ? Dhl they grovel, not, indeed, to. what such an argument might not be ' Empress and Queen, is speedily expected at the
at the feet of Ministers, did td.y crawl upon their• applied, when • the first principle of the Constitution ' Palace of St. Cloud. All the household of this
knees
before tlwat,and supplisate le be disarmed ? Did was once violated; by which every MU was Witted august Princess have received orders accordingly,
1 and

4

.. , .
expressed it, to go for instance into a msn's ' they say, we are too dastardly to defend ourselves to Woe 2rms to .pottAect.his jiroperty, and every preparation Is made for her reception.
orchard. This would naturally attract 11 mob, take from us our arms, for we cannot use them, and' The ATTQRNEY-GENMA explained. Bcor.t ts, June 26.—At the departure of the last
onsectoentlY expose a man to ell its ravages. beep them in your custody? No'! Ho denied the pro- I. Sir SAMUEL .11.13141LL1C rose, %mid !pod CASS new
a,
'taboos, therefore; ooght to he counter- plo of Ea std were yet to base, were iet so Oa •of 4.' Ofellikn .loo
__ eeill•sho etteadou•Of the Co.- rrettr, upon the Niemen, at the most remote Iron-
as far as possible ; the right to search should •grtideill--(Hears • heir; keir n-Ilit denied alb egtiee to the wording .or the chute; fp 1440 Litt' tier of Prussia .;4tinlagiss
I
a, his Majesty the Emperor Napoleon wa* at
and about Utelve miles
s sto,Otted fp One Mileittet, olono---thot *hi vitro tree any 'moonlit,' so*** 'the **is 4e all.' " flionibt pee pee such eenialeed ' I from ril oat
attention... -' . .
a •