The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-07-24 00:00:00

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Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH could not give an
unqualitied approbation of this Bill. He approved
entirely of the repeal of the Five Mile Act, but he
regretted the extension of the number allowed at
meetings not registered, from five, the number in
the Conventicle Act, to twenty. lie thought that
giving an exemption from civil duties and militia to
preachers and teachers of meetings, who carried on
env other business, would lead to abuses, as persons
might register small meetings, officiating only once
Or twice a year at them, for the purpose of obtaining
the exemptions: He lagneuted particularly, that by
this Bill no qualification was required from preach-
ers or teachers, but that all persons, whatever might
be their ignorance or their moral character, might,
on their takiug the tettlgs, be preachers and teachers,
Ile thought that some qualification might to be re-
qeired before they were allowed to prench or teach,
insteael of their being self-elected and self-aPpointedo
as they would be under this Bill. He did not, how- !
ever, intend to give any opposition to the Bill, but ;
be could not help lamenting, that some provision
was not made to ensure some test of qualification in
the persons preaching and teaching.
Lord HOLLAND said the Bill had his support as,
far as it went to extend the system of Toleration,:
and as far as it was restrictive in its nature, he
dis-
approvcd of it.
The LORD CHANCELLOR did not say that
be could altogether agree with the clause granting
exemption in favour of every person who was a!
teacher or preacher ; that, however, would be best
judged of in the Committee.
Earl STANHOPE said, however the Bill might
tome out of the Committee, he never meant to ob-
ject
to its passing.
The Bill was then read a second time, and com-
mitted for to-morrow.
PRISONERS' ESCAPE BILL.
Lord.SIDNIOUTH mov.el the second reading of
the Prisoners of War Escape Prevention Bill. He
trusted that the Bill now before the House would
prove a more effectual check than any which now ex-
isged to a thing which was most disgraceful to the
country. A Noble Lord had moved fur a List of
the N,unes of Officers, Prisoners of. War in this
c•mair, , who had contrived to make their escape
within the last three ) ears, and there had, in con-
sequence, been laid on the Otte, a catalogue con-
taining a list of names, as disgract ful to the persons
themselves as to the country to which they belonged.
A splendid contrast, highly gratifying to the pride of
Great Britain, was presented on the other side.
With feelings as much alive to liberty as any other
natiou could pretend to possess, Britons shewed that
there was something still more dear to them, namely,
the upholding their own personal honour and that of
thei. r Giant°. . There was not one instance to be
found of any Officer in our service having broken his
peg ole with the enemy. There was a high and deli-
berate souse of honour, which conferred -a distinc-
tion on this class of our countrymen, and placed
them in this respect, as much above our enemies as
they were in every other. It was, indeed, a subject
of regret that the same spirit did not extend to all
ether classes of our subjects ; for within the last
three years, .164 Officers on Parole in this country,'
bad effected their escape, who could not have done
so without the assistance of others who were subjects
of this country. This, in some respect, no doubt,
tarnished the hennur which the country otherwise ac-'
quired; An eminent Judge had lately expressed a
doubt, whether the crime of assisting in the escape of
a Prisoner of War did not amount to High Treason,
declaring, at all events, that it approached it most
nearly, yet this offence was regarded, as the law'
now stood, only as a misdemeanour, and was treated
as a bailable offence. The Bill now before the
Mouse did not gokt the extremity of making this a
capital offence, but only a transportable felony, the
endurance of the period of transportation depending
on the enormity a the &route.
The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed satisfac-
tion at the mode in which the Noble Visco.lnt had in-
troduced this measure. The people of this country
bad not been aware of the peril on which they stood
in aiding the escape, of Prisoners or War. It was
right they should know, and Sn this his Lordship
vikked his professional character, that the crime al-
luded to was as nearly allied to high treason as could
be. •
Earl DARNLEY concurred in thjnking the crime
sought to be checked one of the highest enormity.
lie was surprised it had not been sooner provided
against.
Lord. MELVILLE said, it would appear from tho
tette its on the table, that the great increase is the of-
fe..ce had taken Ware within the last year.
. The Bill yea thtu read a second time, and cont.,
;pitted for to-morrow.
PR ESE.RVATION OF.PRACIR BILL.
Lord ‘IDNIOUTII moved that the Report of the
Connell tee of Secrecy be entered as read. He then
*loved the wood reading of- the Preservation of
Peace Bill. As he understood the measure was not
to be! disceserd.at present, be sheets net now ',tee
at any Length ,into ths question. He Wahl Oreille
therstatements in the'Report u to. else-elleinelletretir
-thin!} >ia4 gassikstol themselves in tbs. difinst
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4tiangiviteL..„

Ides ; vindicated the conduct of thiMagisketes, i.
N f the Military Commanders, particularly that4i.
feral Maitland, as having been corred, zealous,
iscreet ; a 94.%), thq whole, contended, the% the p
4.;
Arnow beforttlisellOuse i( it bird any fieltil
objectionable Rely in dot going far enoughi ' •.1
FAel of.OIWSTENOK hod loped-' the thli
,die Lord would not have pressed the
• su re but
reultrlikv% waited to tee 'die Wa ' tts' '
,
of the Orders in Council. w
Aid before the Committee of irth.
the 23d June, andlitey, sliglit.he,n
Imoily to a much leter.datelf *ey woh.
'red it. .., -. ..
trd SIDMOUTH contended that there were ac-
'itirti 'fewer than eight depredations hiving
.onimitted since the abrogation of the Orders in
Council-; 'accounts of one of them had come to hand
• recently as yesterday.
Lord HOLLAND said,' his only reason for not.
wow entering into a discussion on The Bill, was the
advanced-period of the Session. He should reserve
he had to say to a farther stage, when he could
both the principle of the.measure and the par-
clause. He must, however, now declare,
.4 protested against the principle of the measure
In toto. His Lordship should also, when the Bill
,irame to be discussed, move that the Petitions he had
presented should be entered as read.
Earl STANHOPE said, if the measure was re-
quired, why was it not made as little objectionable
as possible, by cenfsniug the execution of the war•
rants to the day time?., , .
The Bill was then read a secoodtime - stineadeisid
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to be committed to-morrow.• • ' -' • ' '''' •' '
Lord HOLLAND asked, if the Noble Tiscouht'
would have any objection to the production of some
of the correspondence on which the Repert wee
grounded, omitting the names ? He particularly al.
luded to the letters of General Maitland. .
Lordsipmouni said, he must resist the pro,
duction of any such correspondence.
CLANDESTINE M MLR I AGES. i
Ths LORD CHANCELLOR. moved, tldt thel
Order of the Day for the House going into a Vous-
mittee ou this Bill,• be discharged,• and do stintfor
this day-three months. This his Lordship did ice
consequence of the probability of their Lordships be.:
ing called on, in their judicial capacity, to coned r'
a question, with which the present exercise of the 1
Legislative capacity, If they were to pass the pre 1
Bill as it stood, might seem to interfere. , •
The motion was put and carried, and the Conll'
mitten fixed for this day three months.—Ajourned. 1

Till

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' ROUSE OF COMMONS.
The Royill Assent was given by Commission to several Bills,
for which see the Lords.
Sir SAMUEL. ROMILLY brought up a Petition from Da- I
niel Isaac Eaton, praying that his case might be taken into con-
sUeration.
Ma WILSON asked if the Honourable and Learned Gent.
had 'squired into Ibis truth of the allegations contained in the
Petition /
Sir 8: {ROMILLY replied that he bad not, nor did he conceive
that such was the duty of a Member of Parliament. The Peti-
tion was coached in respectful language, and therefore he pre-
sented it.
Ored Mlle on the table.
Amnon brought op the Quarterly Accounts of the Commie.
sinners of Vi'estminster-bridge.
The Vote of Credit Bill, the White Herring Fishery Bill, and
the Agent General of Volunteers' Sill, were read a third time
and passed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHKQUEP rose to move the !
usual remuneration to the °Mem of the House of Commons s
—that an Address be presented to his Royal Highness the
Prince Regent, to confer some dignity in the Cararelf on the
Reverend Junes Webber. Chaplain of the. House s—that the'
coin of 14,001. be granted to S. 11. Lusitington, ENI. Chair-
man of the Ways and Means, a sun which, together with
fees, may amount to 9.,3001. to J. Dyson, chief clerk ;—a usni
which, with fees, may amount to 2,0031. to Henry Lee. wood
Clerk ; and several smaller sums to the other Officers. —Ordered.
itinntiovi:ieigtatkhg
into
leasonsrdisd'ersAmit
omenteetntsrestscei
regret that the the
Parish Registry
bad been deprived, through expressed
alters-
tions made in the Bill, of the benefits of come of its provisions.
The Amendments were then agreed to.
Mr. Wil 'THREAD moved for a Copy of the Commission.
granted to any paten to enlist free negroes no the coast of AM.:
ea; together with the procrdings on such Commission, the coo.
respondence connected with it, and the number who had been
enlisted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested that a
copy of the instructions added to the Conunimacon_, shoold be
moved for,
_to make the Commission lotelligible. This Ameod-
mem was adopted, and the motion agreed to.
Lord CASTLEREAGH brought up the Papers relatinito the
Negociation for Peace.—Ordered to be printed.
FINANCE PROPOSITIONS.
Sir THOMAS TURTON commenced the resumed
debate on the Finance Prepositions. He was aware
of the tediousness and langonr that such discussions
were too apt to excite, but he hoped thegreat Import.
ance of the subject would be his apology, and would
induce the House to give it that attention wMch he
could not hope to command upon any subject. He
knew the prospects that a discussion of this kind
opened upon them, could not be the most inviting or
encouraging ; but he thought it infinitely bettet to I
look our dangers manfully in the face, than to shrink
from them for a time, only to be at last the more'
completely overwhelmed by them. After several
other preliminary observations, he proceeded to con:
sister the question before them in a three-fold point.'
of view, In referedee to our Debt, our Expeuditute;
and our Resources. The periett to which he should
confine his calculations would 5e theiast ten years:
from 1802 to 1812. The Right Then. the Chancel.)
for of the Excheqier Made his Resolutions comae**
from 1805, but this difference, as to time,teilit
make hone in point of argument. He premised; emit
he was not disposed, in what he had to offer, to tike
dismal view of the subject, or at all to exaggerkte the
real distresses of thepresent state*, affairs. 'De shouhl
state mere •facts. He condemned the • system *mai
had lately grown too prevalent; of raising the SupJ
plies rir the year by. Loans instead of Taxes, and of :
firmed, that if for the last nine years the &TOM
had been raised by Loans instead of Taxes, it woeid
have made a difference in the Incitese of the Debt,
for that time of 210 millions. The Funded Dated
Great' Britain, in the ye15..11902; amoented" tit
459,067,0001. The Imperial'l.oen 'wui 7,192,0001 i
The same for theyear 1812 amounted to 01'6,518,0001V
making an access in ten 'yeare to the tamest lid,
130,334,0901. the Unfunded Debt for tlie•year
amounted to 5;4.38,0691.• making an ihereate' in dip
Unfunded Debt! since the yes Itit?2lOf 20 milli
~.and since 1804 of 30;25%00014 se -titer 'lt
that the whole of the Fundad and UV! DA.
for ltritti %men need te1109;596;000/ amithigais
aloof deierilloB, of 284,11413i4E01h' The Dtibtifed
hobo', Let feted In this cettest%:lttetitnereati444
.ipatio.4l With respect to theburestettieea,
ts*es had fallen collagens* sbeit of their

have

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,10.;., With respect to the- CtintioWhited Fund,'
... 1811, it amounted 42,286,0001. t--in 18102,
it erne-pitted to 42,917;000L, the charge upon' the
Clollidateti ' Fund, in the year "1811, .amounted
• to 3 ,2,80001. and the charge, for 481* simulated to
I 38,80400* the surplus of the Consolidated Fund
I isi3Bll; was 61)4 millions, that of the same for 1813,
I-but four millions. Oa-censured the present system of
rstati*;'7soo,llcV &ea bad been a loss in AG:
[years vim- untr. g toaf millions, upon the fairest es-
titivated Aueexpenditure) and the most liberal cal-
Fdulation -of ..our resources... He contended, that the
difference. between our expenditure and our re-
sources amounted to not less than 35 millions against
! the latter.. If we had peace to-morrow, such were
the formidable apprehensions entertained by the pee-
! ple of this country,- of the power, talents, and re-
sources of the extraordinary man ~ now at' the
I head of the French Government, that they would I
not consent to more than the deduction of - *Uri
i war establishmenti one half, that would reduce.;
lit to sixty „millions a-year, the resources of 1
I the British. Empire did not exceed sixty-seven-1.
Imillions ayear,—this would leave a surplus of seven.'
: millions ; but the Parliament was pledged upon the
recurrence of peace to give up the war taxes, which
amounted to 22 millions annually, this would reduce
; the annual resources of the country to 45 millions, I
15 millions less than half the war establishment—this I
would be our situation, were there peace to-morrow --,
but how were we to go on .with ,the war? how long' '
, can We continue to raise :annually 35 thilliotis, to I
meet the excess of our expenditure over our re- r
sources? The Mop. Baronet concluded by observing‘l
thit if war was necessary, he wished it to be carried I
on 'sin 'I due regard to our finances; but that if I
peace were Mall practicable, that was what he should‘t
most devoutly, wish for. • I
Mr. TIERNEY rose and said, he did not know
whether it Might be exactly. regular, but with.the per-1
mission of the House, he would, in following the
Don. Baronet, state his view of the subject, and ex-
plain
the nature and teodency of the Resolutions•he
meant to submit to them. He had taken a great deal of
trouble to simplifythem, and he was sure the House
would give Him credit for that trouble, when it was.
recollected how difficult it was to bring into a short
mint of view so many various details. His object
was to lay. before the House and the country, a fair,'
distinct, and comprehensive view, not, only of the
present state of our finances, but of their progress
during the whole of the present war, dating the coin.
mencement of that war from the lit Jean. 1904. He
I would first shortly state the nature and object of his
Resolutions.
The first Resosution would shew the Rouse what.
had been the progress of the Expenditure, as connect-
; ed with the war, and with the war alone, during the
inine yea ending January Ist, 1813.
1 The second Resolution, ould shew what had been .
' the progress of the diterent.Resources of the Country
to meet that Expenditure; during the same time.
The third was intended• to shew where those Re-
sources had arisen from money borrowed, and what
had been the operation on the money market, of the
motley so borrowed. -
The fourth Resolution would shew what bad bees,
the Excess or Diminution, during the same periodi
between the money borrowed and the money in 'then
Sinking Fund.
The fifth Resoluthin would thew the state of the
Unfunded Debt up to 1812. , '
,-4.,
The sixth, the Total Sums of Money raised within
the different years, adding the difference between
the Unfunded Exchequer and Navy Bills.,
The seventh Resolution would shew in what man-
ner the various charges .hall been provided for.
The eighth would shew the Amount of the Expen-
diture for the present year. •
The Right Hon. Member having given this brief
statement of the general scope of his Resolutions,
then went into a variety of minute details upon each;
of them, all tending to shew that our present syse
item of Finance was one that must end in the ruin ;
of our Resources and our Credit. He divided the;
nine yeariendiag January 1, 1813, into periods ofl
I three years each, and compared the average amount;
of the one with the other.—The Expenditure during
the first of those three years was forty millions ; dur-
ling the second, forty-seven millions ; and during the •
last three years, fifty-two millions. The excess in
our War Expenditure of the last six emirs, as coin-
pared with the first three, was 11,982,0001. He •
formed his estimate from the supplies that were ;
voted for the war each year, leaving out all-the Alis-1
cellaneous Estimates. 14 inekitig to the way in i
which these charges had been prnvided ter, it, would!
appear, epon comparison, that the Money borrowed I
In 1812 exceeded wlttat was raised by taxation bp-1
wards of five millions.: The increased outstanding
Debt of the' Country, for the last nine years, was '
91,000,0001. and the Sinking Fund had increased
8,900,0001. in the same time. In 1804, the Sinking
Food was to the National' Debt at 77 tc 484;' and in'
1813 4 would-form a 44th Part 'of the, whole unre-
deemed Debt. Within the lag two years it'would ap-
pear from' the stisteisents, thei,stockshad fallen'l4
per cent. Upon -the whole, it appeared there was
889,0001: deficiency In the nine yearsr between the
charge and the sums raised to defray that charge, and
he thought nothing betimes, very strong measures of
Finance, therefore,''ctiuld save the countryrbin
ruin, aft far *site nuance was coacerned....: little-
!loved some such samisures possible, and balbeeght
that if tberreeeight theward the county
have no oisj,ectiont4sethem. He maintained, that
dining the last chippers,. we had been going on in.
a eineyse - -- Lie woul4titiOl---
Friend '

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tffinVes into consideration. If Committees could ,
tricate us from our difficulties, l
culties, we had had suilicip; Cy
of Committees already. Though he was ready to
admit the good which some of their Coninsitt,e, had
effected, he thought the subject was one whirl, more
properly came under the consideration of the o hole
House. With respect to the Resolutions moved by
the Honourable Baronet, be was aware of none of
'them which he had not embodied in the Resolutions
which he should himself submit to the House, es.
cept the last ; and he should, therefore, move the
privions question as to all these Resolutions, except
the last, as the mildest way of disposing of them._
With respect to the last of his Resolutions, as b•
considered it calculated to throw a damp obir th
exertions of the country, and to encourage the eat,
myea
Housein hoins
iet fro. rts
The, he
Honourable would
Baronet,ke t hßeheegerneerstseelaosiletiritmeluesemctsasioereanoliirdidu),l fs(,iti
titiNlao. ,
c,:.
fallen into Several errors and inaccuracies, the said,
maferial of which was in his 11th 11? solution, i
his statement of the produce of the permanent tate
movedeHrn hisieeceri
nnstdehoyue then proceededrtrawtthhaeeininc,
abilities.
Righti
bnb el
his
examinettiwisteoee.n h,ai Honourableisi
'There
opinion,rwe
dniGwdt
ii; tohpaosiritileiyonopfrmocethaeivtla Right Honourable
eb lbyfeointiehoveuedm o
ra, from the differenceblenGentlemau, vi
ofhich
p
some points, and
partly . from inaccuracies, into 'which the Right
Hoh. Gentleman had fallen. He should move the pre.
vie us question also with respect to these Resointiuns.
4it was in his opinion, extremely desirable in any
vieW of-the Finances of this country to separate the
,extraordinary expences of the country, arising from
.the' assistance which might be given to our Allies on
.the Continent, from what he would call the ordinary
expences of our insular war. If we could raise by
our Permanent and War Trees, with the addition of
1 the Sinking Fund, a sum sufficient to meet the ordi.
nary expences of our insular war, then we should
realize what had been proposed by Lord Henry
Petty. It was impossible, no doubt, that the ha.
come of the nation should be able to meet also the
extraordinary expences of the Continental War, but
that it
Expenditure
sracticable to mike it answer onr ordi.
nary had been shewn already. In 1808,
for instance, the Income reached the Expenditure.
lie differed with theßight Hon. Gent. in his opinion,
that the amount of our War Taxes, and, among
others, oar Property Tax, had a tendency to hurt
public credit. His own opinion, and the opinion of
the public was, that they Coqtributed to improve
Public credit, by reducing the amount of the sum hi
be raised by "a Loan. This idea of the Right Hoe
nourable Gent. he considered, as one of those ideas
that start up in an ingenious mind, and are received
without proper examination., . The public credit was
principally affected by our feieign expenditure. In
1795 and 179 q, when our foreign expenditure was
very great, our public credit fell. Our foreign ex.
penditure wail very great during the last year, and
the same effect naturally followed. In 1790 and
1799 our public credit again rose. With respect to
the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman oa
the Unfunded Debt of the country, he believed his
accusation of the Bank pressing the issue of an ad.
-dftionallum of Exchequer Bilis, at an inconvenient
—time, was altogathor wisfons;ded. The Bank bad last
omission' train netice of their intention to the Co.
vernment. It would be remembered, perhaps by
the House, that he had himself remonstrated in as
strong terms as he could,. three years ago, on the
amount of our Unfunded Debt. His predecessor
(Mr. Perceval) had succeeded in discharging duties
of an office so different from what all his former
pursuits had been directed" to, beyond what he
expected, and beyond the expectation of the coun-
try. His administration of the Finances of the coon-
try was altogether entitled to great praise; but there
were twopoints on which he took particular pains, the
first was in checking all frauds on the revenue, and
1 simplifying the management of it as much as posai-
ble ; and the other, a constant care not to in.
Icrease the nominal capital of our funded debt. This
might appear to some a matter of very inconsicier-
: able importance, as the anneal char,ge to the
',country was not affected by it ; but the impres.
sion made on the public, and Europe in general, by
any addition to the nominal amount of our funded
idebt was very different, for they had no other
i way of understanding our debt but by looking into
! its nominal amount, and were unable to form any
estimate of the difference ' between that nominal
lamount and its actual value. This nominal ameuot
would also be of great consequence in the case of a
1 flourishing state of the country, in the progress of
redemption of the debt, when the price would na-
turally rise. With respect to the addititions to the
public debt, he had to state, 'that in the ten years
preceding the. Peace of Amiens, 28 millions had oa
an average been annually addedto it, whereas forth'
wine sous. after that period, elgtitt#Wons only had
ilisitii_ annually added, not oneethsrd part of the
"former sure. The greater amount of the Loan in the
`resent year :would raise the average of the ten years
"t 0 nine millions. It-was consolatory to observes
Ant with a loss of a third part of our Manufactures,
and the; pressure occssioued by the high price of grain,
the Revenue of the country had net been diminished.
The total income of .the countryip ,to April last,
,1 or t amounted"
lex
yey Ix a
feat di,ablpouint niifnliii:inwlit'ereffewthathkeicahpliititasp4etgoadllmytiovu6gnitth.wtinhouuthe:
.be fause,t,A., exceed the Revenuelof the. forme
.Iyear. • lt,Tras certainly consolatory to the coon-
%tcy.?tite tioild . t.)Htnotta
injuredr ery
our Revenue. depressiontwo
t.
.a
-Illy Imagined on the. Continent, that any
lution , ' trade . would cut up the sinews
' this would 'thew them that
..eent, that we lhoWtl be enabled to
struggler and that any, effect produced
sg our trade prododeditsuffect, it
, slowly as to ditiappciint the et•
those who entertain Such opinions.
---, were, howeier," he was per.
greater efforts tousebe.inade, if the
continued on its owit,ro9ting.---
, effected by -tseetrenet,qop, was not
fiens *hat he know, he be.
''-^ved`byit. ' Ho believed
' but' by a re,'
',' hear ! J
ar,
Tel pelirf

ftWa

t

a questiosi

of'

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i
. r • Illiatics=F—' ~iiiwit.—.-•-•—.----'—'•ffil
discussiont but in its 110Paliiin) its Canons, and all countiv
, .. the principles on whichit rested, courting the loves- and of
ligation of the Scriptures upon which it founded its of Gene
' '{ doctrines.
~andaiisi
Earl STANHOPE objected to the Bill, that it meitstire
was founded in its Preamble and its Clauses upon was obj
!iit , '4
expediency, and expediency alone; and did noria- - ?Di
1, 1 • cognice the right of religions v. or,..hip, which he Noble I
contended to be the unalienable right of man. His wenkti
4 . Lordship went through most of the clauses, making Repeal
I
':
...
several objections to particular parts of them, re- been lai
• 1 'peeling which it was his intention to move in the than th
, • Committee: . teatime
Lord HOLLAND agreed wi,li his Noble, Friend receivec
4 as to.the tight df religions worship, but,, neverthe- `. Lord
`..t. I; il less was a warm friend to the present Bill., •Ilel'ee• counts .1
1 I membered being told some years ago, by the late been co
Mr. Selwyn, that a good law required a
,great deal. Council
'4* ' of soaking in the House of Commits, so it appear- so recet
~. ,t, , 'eel that a great principle requiteda great deal* of soak- Lord
lug; but the Noble Lord who moved the present now en
Bill seemed to hare become a wet intolerant, and , advance
viewing' this Bill as so much gained to.the cause df what he
; toleration, he (L-rd Holland) did net despair of discuss
,9
seeing at length acknowledged the great•principlefor Muter
which he contended. that he
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