The Statesman.
London, England, 1813-05-12 00:00:00

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tenth security is the oath !deb
acted upon in all. This position he corroborated by Bill which was then before the that the Catholic than tate.. it pro.
through by a casual - consists or an
reading extracts from Dr. Milner 's writings. He op- pressed . . ei the
opposedsu
of the regicidal power of the
posed the Bill in its present state because no idol.. , that majority convince tie, nation an 00-* ' - fe deposing
it Power of the
power of the
testant prejudices against it ; and because it did not mode by which
Bill was uueonstiaurnal•and uncaral. an
satisfy even those fur whose benefit it was proposed •„ . ,, . . . ..s..ht . the position that af • ope,
to enact it. Let Gentlemen read Dr. Milner, and ; nient was no, erg Mint upon props, o faith ought to
although that doctrine bad with Heretics. The Catholic,
they would find that he and all the Cuthelic Clergy,l simple repeal, by that
some persons. It Woe, to maintain the Protestant oath,
and an immense number of the Laity, were ready to ; broached by succession• h , e
• the halter ' acknowledge that he did not thep ash
ascend the scaffold and embrace the axe or
1 had not v reposed many to maintain the present stns
;he swears to discov Ile of Protestant
rather than submit to the provisions of the Bill and sure which he er a plots and rtes.
the Clauses of the Right Honourable Gentleman and to prove this it was onlyakecessity .which he may become privy ; 'he •
swears to
(Mr. Canning). For himself, he had advocated the refer .to the Correspondence which - eserche whatever power or,
, authority he may ob.
cause eight years, and was still friendly to it ;
,but i between ,
himself stn, a Noble Viscount
• , die of Members ...le ;sate, hi • Si& irviiiarnier as n
i _
_.„„, I Attu or.disturb thd • Protestant Ch •
s not tooter.
that it should be carried into effect properly, it was moved,Church establish-
indispensible that they should be acquainted with ; e That a Select . mtt Com iee benppointed to examine and re- their: admission to corpotate rights.; and the fourth, ramie; heiwears-that in ;catholic
the state of tbe laws affecting his Majesty's Roman Catlin- ' their admission to civil and military offices. It goes bishops, or Airostolic. Friars rte '
papers on anti under thelable. (The Honourable ; Pert
...,will not choose
lie Subjects within the realm-the. state and.
number of the Ro- •to giire to the Catholic in common with the Prates- than of whose loyalty and tranquil disposition
any
Baronet bad a chest full of papers on the floor, and , he is
of the Slave • man Catholic Clergy-their 1 t s great a
religious institutions-tied their in- .an g mass of privilege as it now appears clot assured ;he swears that he will have
number on the table.) In the caee
° tercourse with the See of Rome, or any other Foreign juris- !CI ient to bestow upon to sweep from the thunication, ditect or indirect,•
Trade abolition, they had Committee en Committee, •.. . regulations fl' his M ' to-book them, d. . with the Seeof
home,
aid ion-n state of the laws and .2 ec mg a- Scat te. ok the penalties that now , disfigure it, and • affecting or
and Report on Report. This was the reasonable
..
estv's Roman Catholic Sulkjecis in the several colonies of Great ! era e thosewhom they aff awaitwith9.
the Protestant it Government
course to enlighten the public; and surely f
i- .1116. min-the reaulation.sof k'oreign Slates as far as they Can be 'the .0 -Church oc t.t.o
.._ _ _ patience or of Great Britain and Ire.
t Id will be I land ; and finall
ever it was requisite, it must be so. on a we- substantiated by evidence, respecting the nomlnation,-collation; I rind
..wlign • a that is now withheld y, he swears, never to have any corn_
. • grai ed without reserve. Resolutions have been im. I iimeication or connexion with the '
sure of this importance. It was brit decent that they ,or institution of the episcopal order of the Roman Catholic ; , See of Rome
• See of Pa
should not come to a decision while mutual charges ! Clergy, and the regulations of their intercourse with the which
pate to the Catholic Board which I take upon me is not in its nature purely . pare ecclesiastical• Is
f lone- ; to s
and recrimi!eitions run so higlee-e-When Prelates ; Rome; and that such Committee have the usual powers o . the Catholic Board never passed. That Reso. not all this, Sir, enough to remove th * e fears of the
of the highest character in the one church, accused ; ing for persons, papers, and records; and that it be restricted
by instruction of the Rouse in its report, merely to the s tate- true but they are not theirs, nor did they ever ; sure of their alarm. Iu addition
those of the other of mite* tektite; dangerous doctrines . to this, let it be
; meat of fads appearing in evidence." , slut ion them, or them. I have a right then I considered that the
ated tenets-till these matters were.ctearly explained -
I i .. • . , proposed oath is ageneral
y, that those who found on this imputed disco!). ; Hitherto, it has not been necessary one.
it would he mostsuswise in the Legtslatore to eess i Mr. GRATTAN then rose, and addressed the •to
,
.
a law on the subject. .4hlse matter of the civil an. t house in a sI
peech of which the following is:the pub- 'tent tent any objection to the Bill, found it on that which ;Clefsky, any mote then the Catholic laity,
to take
thortty of the Pope ought particularly to be en- 1 stance :--est I the to oppose the motion of sty Hon. lls not fact. The Catholic Board expressed their : tide oath, unless on the aweletalasle of offspt., „Rot
quire(' into. That authority wa's*greater than many Friend-. 1. think It inapplicable; but in rising to I thanks for the motion by which the Bill`Was *introit the Preseet oath is angmentedfe as. en tand is
en $
persons apprehended, and it would he well to tarot- oppose. it because I think it so, I feel it to be my ; due'ed.. At a Meeting which took place seise time Ike be generally administered to .ell the Catholic
lest that even the Catholic Mary, when she repealed first duty to return him my best thanks for the set. afterwards, they did not recede from this first feel. I Clergy. These then are the securities. Whether
the laws of her father, Henry VIII. against the ta
i.l vice he has heretofore rendered to the cause of retie I ine. They met again without any symptom of . the House will consider them to be sufficient, I
tholics, repealed only those of a religious nature ; gious liberty, and to declare, .that at the moment I ; incipient discontent. They now merely met for the i know aut. But great securities they unquestionably
passed after the 20th year of his reign, but con- ; differ with him in opinion, a sense of his merits to. ' purpose of an arrangement with respect to their Dele. I are. A Right Hon. Gentleman, 1 beg leave to call
filmed in force the civil enactments of the earlier I wards that cause makes it painful to Wept do' so. : gates, and not to retract any:resolution they hadlliim my Right Iknourable Friend (Mr. Can.
period. The See of Rome had great civil power in :My Housturable Friend has now proposed a Select• i adopted as to the Bill'; nor had they done any eel ning), has seggested some . additional clauies.
respect to marriages, to absolutions, and in many I Committee to enquire into the slate -of the laws as , from which we were to infer their dissatisfactione He proposes the appointment by Parliament
other ways, and on all these points it was thought ;affecting Roman Catholics, and in doing so seems !If,* indeed, so long as there may be a Priest oh of Protestant Commissioners, with power to
absolutely necessary by Catholics' to have recourse ! to have forgotten that more than twenty years have i Bishop found to oppose any measure that may be
withhold their assent to the nomination of those
to the Holy Father. Another subject which called , been already spent in such an enquiry; The ques- thought necessary for the security of the Established) Bishops and Apostolic Vicars of whose loyalty
imperatively fur investigation and provision, was I tion was agitated in the year 1792; in I/93 it waS Church, we shall deem that a sufficient reason for i they entertain any doubt, and also with power to
the state of Monastic Religion and of Monastic In. . again agitated, again in 1808, and again In' '1816; , abstaining from bringing forward a Bill; any adjust-; inspect the pipers and books connected with those
stitrtions. Gentlemen, if they passed this Bill, in 1811 it was. twice brought before the House of meet or reconciliation is hopeless, foritich person or nominations, with a_ proviso. that they should be '
might not esnect to see processions of monks and . Commons, three times in 1812, and during the pre.; Pe will never be wanting. But will, you impute i bound not to betray the secrets of
°the
,Catholic
infallibility
t:fetahenp
friars in the streets of the Metropolis, but such : sent year this is the fourth discussion- which has 1 everyectof individuals to a largebody of men; adopt, Church. Sir, these elitists will amount to a cone.
might be the case. He for one had no objection to ' taken place on it.-Uloctr, hear !]-But surely my 1 this principle, and you may go on for ever agitating I Plete security for domestic nominati e.., Aly Right
a Roman Catholic Lord Mayor, but he confessed he : Honourable Friend cannot be so dead to all sense of
a question which involves your 'liberty and security, I Hon. Friend has touched the subject with a delicate
would trot like to see the sword and mace carried Self-gratulation as to have cast out of his mind the I without a hope of ever coming to a decision. Willi hand. We did not introduce the clauses ieto the
before him in procession to a Catholic
Chapel.- great victories which he has achieved in the course of J you make every symptom of local dissatisfitction an I Bill not because we disapproved of them, but because
Nhithout wishing to undervalue the Bill, he held , this momentous contest, which he now wishes to be ; excuse, for persisting in feelings of hostility ? Then! we did not know how far the Catholic body mightthat some collateral securities were deemed necessary I renewed ; the numerous adversaries whom he has I abandon all thought of public concord, for it is im- ; approve of their intrOduction..- For my own part,l
by all States (as he could prove), and Bonaparte'. worsted and put to flight in the ample fields of : possible, according to the constitution of human af- i think that they are liberal is their eature,,and.Jhat
himscif - had acted upon them in the establishment : Theology ; or, by a very strange excess of self. I
, fairs, that you should ever be with such an ex- ; they ought to be received... AAfew words, Sir, on
of the Gallica u Church. The oath proposed might - denial, he wishes to forego the. fruits of those vic.lcuse. To withhold from the Catholic Body what i the genera! merits of the Bill ;it is now before the.
be ample security. with those Catholics who took it, ; tories, and fight his battles over again, for the plea.' they demand, and to withhold it with jpstice, we
1 House. It will, no doubt, undergo some alterations
but he wanted. something to -protect us against the sure of fighting them, giving his enemies groond I must fasten on them the imputation of ;discontent •here. But such as it is, in its present state, it amounts
encroachments of the . Papal See. This was the for claiming a triumph where they had experienced !as a body ; but that cannot be done.
Their letters. to emancipation for the Catholics and security for
opinion of Lord Grenville in 1808, whet he ad- ' signal and shameful discomfiture.-[A laugh.]-My ! all breathe a spirit of conciliation which does them . the Protestants. It is a Bill which gives to the Ca-
r the other (louse against' hasty and inconsi- , Iton. Friend wishes for a Select Committee to en.' infinite honour, and supply proof of the security of 1 tholic emancipation, and it gives to the Protestant
derate concession, without providing safeguards con- * quire into the state of the petal laws affecting the -1 their friendly resolution. They have advanced as three securities. It gives to him. the security, and a
sistent with the exigencies of the times. Bat Catholics, in the, teeth of a Resolution moved and; you have advanced,• and there is not no reason I
I great one it is, which arises from the incorporation
the isisntliciency of the oath as a perfect security , carried in a Committee of the House for the same', why either party should recede. I have now to ,of the Catholics ; it gives to him security of a com.
was obvious, from the small number of Cacho- !purpose, which resolution went. to declare that it i make a few observations on some objections which Plete and positive defence of the Protestant Church
lies who took those already laid down by the ' was highly advisable " that those laws should be I have been stated against the Bill, and which, against La
' tholic intereference; and it gives to him
law. Ile had made studious enquiry into this sub. repealed, If they could be repealed without endan..l I trust, I shall he able to show are .vausulless. des best bur ever devised agates; the interfere:mai of
}act (the details of which he went into) and stated gering the Constitution."-With all respect to the ; Pint,' it be -objected, that Peers will not have the' allY foreign Rawer With the Ctitholic Church. I say,
to the House, that only about 1800 Catholics had . Houser I would suggest that such a measure would i right of voting for the election of Peers ; but to this I therefore,
•Sir, that the House cannot reject this Bill
taken the oaths in thirty-one of the most populous be little short of a• disavowal of their own act ; ift I reply, that by the Act of Union all Peers have a j without rejecting a union of Catholic privilege with
counties in England, since the year 1791.-On the they adopted it they would tacitly say, that they re- j right fo 'vote upon tubing the oath administered to; Protestant security. With this conviction I move the
subject of the education of the Roman Catholic grettedtheir admitting the introduction •of the pre. : sitting Peers, and the oath which will, according I Order of the Day."
Clergy, he could not avoid expressing his surprise at , sent Bill.- [Mar, hear! from the T 1 cosury ito the provisions of the present Bill, admit a Peer I Mr. RYDER expressed his surprise at the oh.
the narrow policy of some persons whoshatt pro. ' Bencher.]-They would avow that their resolution Ito sitlit Parliament, Witt, of course, enable him to serration made by the lion. Gentleman-" that on
posed to reduce the extent of the establishment at was • precipitattd.-[Heae, hear !].-They would ' vote. Again, it is urged, that the Bill does not the whole he thought the Catbolic Board would be
Maynooth. Would any man deny that it was net , postpone the consideration of the Catholic ques. admit Catholics to the Bench,- but it is obvious that
satisfied with the Bill now proposed to Parliament."
better that the Roman Catholic Clergy should be; tion-not for a short period-not for sit months- this' is included within the admission to all. Civil It 'was impossible that they should not : for, if the
Well educated ? Would any person wish that the : not for a session-for at; indefinite period, tiff an offices. It is said, that 'it leaves them unable toI Bill passed into a law, no proposition was more eri.
Order of the Jesuits should be extended ? Certainly j enquiry had taken place with respect to the nature vote in Corporations, but this, it is plain, is an ob- dent than that it would enable the Catholics to be-
there was no better way of preventing this, than tol of the penal laws, the term of which enquiry,*neitection void of foundation. -They are also assured, come members of all Corporations, to obtain seats
afford sufficient means for the instruction of those; one could possibly foresee-an enquiry which was I without any ground, it, be excluded from colleges, in Parliament, to- be made Ministers of State-aiir
persons who were educated Tor the Church. There Ito embrace the laws of ancient or recent date-the I whereasi• they -are merely excluded from holding all that without providing the slightest additional
*as an institution in the country, which thought it- interest of Catholics in the colonies, and which was offices and ecclesiastical establishments. It is said, security for the Protestant establishment. It was
self bound to support the order of the Jesuits ; and, I not to rest even here, but to be extended to every but also without any foundation for the assertion, frue that
the te n the
our framers
which the of the Bill had pr
loemanvided
had
an
for this purpose, thirty thousand pounds were given ; part of Europe. If we grant this enquiry, if we ap. that Catholics will be unable to become Guardians. oath, of Hon. Gent
for the support of a College of Jesuits in Ireland.-1 point this Committee in compliance with the wishes On the whole it is a Bill of Incorporation, emancle detailed with great pomp and emphasis ; but when
This alone Was sufficient to show the necessity of of my Hon. Friend, we may rest assured that on pating the Catholics from the bonds of which they compared with the oaths existing on the statute-
enquiring into the Monastic Institutions in the king- 1 that Committee we devolve a task which cannot beat present complain.-To this, however, as to every books, it would be found that it did not contain a
dom ; and it would not only be highly improper to ; completed for a number of years ; and we thus .de. i other human proposition, objections have been single abjuration 'tibia was not contained in the
hurry 'the Bill through) the'
.Itouse without such an I fer, as if we were deferring for ever, that mercy I started. It has been said, ' yeti ought to have oaths prescribed by the English Act of 1791 and
enquiry, but it would be highly prejudicial to the' and humanity to which, since the year 179 a, •the'' framed your Bill on the general principle of liberty the Irish Act of 1793.-With respect to the motion,
great object of Catholic Emancipation. It might, deliberations of this House have been tending.- of conscience.'-What, Sir ! would the House made by the Hon. Baronet, the Hon. Baronet's in-
perhaps, be said, that such language was against the If we annul the resolution we • have passed, we I have approved of the proceedings of their Commit - formation and abilities (however he might differ froin
Bill ; but he would say that the Bill shOuld not testify our regret for what we have done, we come I tee had they founded the Bill on an abstract grin- him nit on material peints) induced him (Mr. R.)
be carried through before the subjects comprehended i forward with an apology for its iuexpediency, we as i ciple, and had they by that means deprived the Ca-,*; Wheipe that the House would agree to it. He pressed
in his motion were duly considered, as they were all itF were stultify ourselves, and afford a precedent for Itholics of the benefit of their own distinct case*?--' I this with greater grace, as no man had been a more
objects of legitimate and wholesome enquiry. Spain, I the re-examination of our vote on every subject.-! By others it had been declared, that. we ought to ; flint, persevering, and consistent friend to the Ca-
Portugal, and several of the other Continental States I And doubtless it will well deserve to be re-examined, : have preceded the measure. by a distinct repeal of i Phalle cause than the Hon. Baronet. The House
woos not called
ha Ca
d found it necessary to legislate for the purpose of ; if we can one day declare the propriety of repealing , all the penal laws against. the
• tholics. Be it re. upon to retract : all that they were
abridging the temporal authority o; the Pope ; it ! certain Penal Laws affecting a portion of his Mates. : meMbered, however, that the great object of the called upon to do was to pause, for the purpose of
could not, therefore, be denied, that it behoved . ty's subjects, and shortly afterwards direct and en- I Bill is adjustment, and that all adjustment is incor-1 obtaining slue information, before they proceeded to
British Legislators to examine the acts of those! quire into the nature of those laws on which we have !potation. N •• •which that • ° make a change of such magnitude in the Coustitu.
Now, the provisions on incor..
Powers, and the effects wiicb they had produced, :so decided.. lausemill.,delay alone tes-the.niiil.conse..; potation issfoooded., will reader these pima} • lasys. alma as to annul laws whieli; . for the Nit one
before they passed a law involving a question of a ' quence of so preposterous a measure !-by no means trifling • and ineffective suscepticible of repeal : hundred and twenty years, sad been deemed the
nature perfectly similar. The lion. Baronet then ! -we shall revive the memory of laws which it is for at some future and more 'leisure period. We j firm bulwark of the Protestant establishment.-
went on to particularise the Papers for which he • the interest of all should be consigned to oblivion ; now, Sir, come to consider the securities which.: Would any man say, when ,Parliament was called
would wove, as counected with the laws of foreign••
we shall revive the charges against the Catholic Pro -
the the Bill contains for the Protestant Esteblichment.,l upon .to put the Catholics on an equalcooting with
States an the subject of the intercourse Permitted to • hates; we shall not perhaps actually tax them with The first security is the exclusion of the Catholic , the Protestants, .that it was not indispensable to en-
exist betw nil Bontaa Catholic Clergy and the See disaffection to the Government, but we shall certain-' from the offices of Lord Chancellor of England and *quire into some of the statements made by the Hon.
of home; these consisted partly ef. Correspondence ly, whatever may be the extent of our suspicions or : Lord Lieutenant of Ireland ; the former as Keeper i Baronet to enqaire into the state of the Catholic
between British Ministers resident abroad with dif- . accusations, 'Put them and the whole Catholic Body ' of the King's conscience the hitters as the Repre-IClergy, to enquire into the allegation that 30,0001.
feront Continental Governments. on this subject.-` on their trial, and this on the suggestion of-an indi. i seutative of his Mn eat '•must be Ilmtestant. The a year was subscribed towards the este blkliment of
The Papers, as they contained information relative: vidual. -The Committee we shall appoint, too, will • second security is the.9exclusion of the Catholics a College of Jesuits in Ireland ?-Might net the
to the Establishments in foreign States, were neces. be a Committee of religious controversy, a Commit. from the office of. Lord Commissioner of the Great result of such an enquiry prove the necessity of con..
; sary to be laid before the House, and to be sub- tee, too, .of diplomacy ; for the correspondence Seal of Great Britain. - The third security is the , tiuuing the existing restrictions:-The Hon. Ba-
olltted to the consideration of a Committee. The ; from the various countries where enquiries are to be ; appointment of a Protestant Commission iu cases ; toner had stated that out of half a millio° of Pi''''
only objection which ho could anticipate to his ma- made, will invest them with that character. When •in which a right of presentation to atiY. ecelesiasti. : SOnS, only-about 5000 in '22 years .had taken -the
lion was that , it would retard the Bill then before they have concluded their investigation they must re- : cal benefice is vested in a Catholic. The fourth se-' oaths prescribed by the English and Irish Partin.
the House : but whatever might be the state of Ho: port the result, and till this report crowns a Period . euritY is the exclusion of the Catholics from all Ec. melds, although' recommended to do so by their
gress of that Bill, the obect which it was intended •of laborious •and Bishops in Ireland, and by their Aiiostolic Vicars.-
enquiry polemic deliberations no clesiastiCal Courts of Judicature. The fifth security •
to effect was the settlement i
, of that great question, ; Bill like the present having for itsobject the relief is the exclusion of the catholic; from Courts of This was an extraordinary fact, of which no one
e •
and this certainly could not be attained without t 1 of the Catholics can be introduced.
, ti I have de- Appeal, or review of the sentences
compliance with his motion : in that
.. the House : tailed the grounds upon which I feel myself called Courts The sixth security is the exclusion of the ' tion. Again, it was well known to be the policy et
might possess such information as to enable it to upon to oppose the motion of my Honourable Friend Catholics from any college or school of Royal or all the Continental States, Catholic as well as Pro-
-mine upon the proper securities, and, by exa. and I repeat that my opposition is kept free from, Ecclesiastical foundation. The seventh securit it testant, to guard against the interference of the See'
regulations of other kingdoms to that et. ; every acrid feeling by the strop recollection which the exclusionof ti . Catholics from au interference: of Rome. Would the House allow the
Catholic
success with w'►i a ch these regulations ' fills my mind of the great serviceg
he has done the in ie..
di i Bill to advance another step until they obtained in-
the advising the Crown in the app ointmentor s- •
attended. Tile Catholics 'might
perhaps.; cause of emancipation, and which no difference of posal of any lay or ecchisiastiCal offices of the Pro. ' formation as to the means resorted to by the Conti-
sught the House to legislate so- strictly 1 opiuion that may hereafter exist between us call ever Church.testant-The eight secitri is the vide.' nodal States ' for that purpose? The ettestion had
usual
hem ?-Why suspect their loyalty ?- The erase from it.
My Hon. Friend has-stated one rea. lion .of foreigners from the episcopal duties or not experienced that consideration which way
• this was. that Spain, Prussia, and other son why
legislated so, and that the law sofEn g. manner in which the Bill is regarded Li Ireland s in lit y is the exclusion of non-resident native Catholics the examination •by Committee which the State,Trad;
be framed Olt the same principles. The that country it is said to have media.' game .oetliss from such earisaiastbets duties 'add functions.- lquestion had undergone, and which Use scitlesti°a• d '

dPiermine ui
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and th
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•
.
' PrIlE STATIMMAN, .
...„, . .
the House toot .be letloll6llol_..
___.l • I deny &aft has dote as. If I can The tenth security I
majori ~ bik7would Ts% art!' la* infeemttlew derived from my corn- Mee that the Cathol
lon ? Hecti-,qteie-il sr= with Ireland,. the Catholics have taken abjuration of the su
4
woul say, that•the - eir 'at the BMA but :on the contrary are es- Pope, an abjuration
-,90.01, for with gratitude what -0 : . an abjuration
I to miry
uacaaaidcat. .pa ~. gislatfulta:: the , ' nod to greeit, bpi* *it P ._, an abjuration
*moo:: 'lively al
Ipon* -&-- priociple of the"be° #arbe, ._ spied witiveny: coildititte. OM at abjuration of the
: doctrine had been leg° ,_ 10:11101111 Weald be en obeedoniteut df be kept with Heretic'
t would be belt just‘to the privileges tbt7 ilready enjoy. ' The Mil; the .se‘ swears to maintain
itn advocate any men- cond Tiding cof.•wisiekemr_ipAido Nibs 1.. . . _ wears to maintain I
andligalnet,-"Wei -i -.W present ,-. • ,w-1. . operty ; he swears
. tdbi:4l
.; 'cowl* of_foggpriopipak points. The first ions to which he maj
is the admitting the Catholics to seats in this House ; exercise whatever p
discount opposite. He tth•heireeml.electia'a
of member, of .parliament ;
their edreiselow to the right of. voting at Min itrihe %ate, iw
,bliecliedhicheusihsaaidn4taYfkel:errsnhpingniga°lcoe
the third throw or.disturb tin
_I AT . • •