The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-01-07 00:00:00

rents dissenting from the "religious teaching there given. He
felt that it was unnecessary for him to vinelicate the gentle-
men who acted with Mr. Smith on the o,;casion to w hic
that gentleman had alluded. Mr. Smith, it was evident , ha
not made the important discovery which ho would have the
council to believe. There was an essential difference between
Mr. Smith's proposition and that of Mr. Birch. The latter,
at that time, was unfortunately in a minority. He had no
power to obtain what he wished, and was obliged to be con-
tent to take what he could get. (Hear. hear.) He, being
truly a liberal, thought the liberality of " liberal" gentlemen
would, seeing that they had deprived the Protestant commu-
nity of their own schools, give him a small proportion of
that which was honestly due. Therefore, Mr. Birch was
perfectly consistent in moving that new schools should
be erected and continued, on the principles on which
the old schools had formerly existed in the borough,
namely, on sound Protestant principles. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Birch only so far consented to the new system be-
cause he could not successfully oppose' it ; and those
who voted with him voted consistently. . Mr. Smith, how-
ever, proposed the very reverse of this, and he might re-
concile his course now with his course then as he best could.
(Hear, hear.) The case of 111 r. Birch furnished an
.ad-
ditional weapon to the conservatives; because, if the just and
equitable concession he pleaded for were not conceded, it was
by no means difficult to see front what quarter the bigotry,
cruelty, and intolerance, of which they had heard so much,
first proceeded. (Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) Neither
could it have escaped the recollection of-the council that
when the change in the system of education here was first
contemplated, the Rectors memorialized the council ; and,
with a liberality which did them and their brother clergy
great honour, offered, if the corporation would give them up,
to take the schools into their own hands and provide the-
whole funds necessary for their maintenance. (Hear, hear.)
How this offer was received be, (Mr. B.) need not inform the
council. The spirit evinced by the " liberals" when in power,
he admitted, formed no reason why conservatives should now
retaliate ; but it was nevertheless necessary that they should
not lose sight of weapons which their opponents had placed
within their grasp, nor fail, by opposing facts of illiberality
to arguments which had been used against themselves, to
turn those weapons to the best account. (Hear, hear, and
cheers.) With regard to the exclusion of the Roman Catholic
children from the schools, he had a hope, not unreasonably
founded, that a very large proportion of them would con-
tinue in the schools. From a statistical return it appeared
that there was not a protestant school in Liverpool in which
there were not very many Roman Catholics. In Ireland—
the hot-bed of Roman catholicism—there were 22,000 chil-
dren of that persuasion in the protestant schools. (Hear,
Near.) So far as he was concerned, if the Roman Catholic
;,.-sts would consent to give the Douay translation of the
Testament, without note or comment, he would consent to
receive it. Respecting this view there might be some differ-
ence of opinion ; but he had examined the two translations
for himself ; and further, had received a confirmatory opinion
from a clergyman in whose judgment he had the highest
confidence. He would read to them an extract or two which
would show, that it is not for the Douay translation which
the Homisb priests themselves contend, but for thenotes which
accompany it. "It appears that several gentlemen in Lon-
don formed a plan for printing and circulating the Douay trans-
lation. In this they were at first encouraged by the Rev.
Peter Gandolphy, a Romish priest in that city, who declared,
on behalf of himself and brethren, that they would be ready
to circulate the Bible, in English, among their people, if any
society would give them their own translation." The Rev.
P. Gandolphy says, in a letter to the Rev. Win. Marsh,—
" If any of the Bible societies feel disposed to try our esteem
for the Bible, by presenting us some copies of a Catholic
version, with or without notes. we will gratefully acccept,
and faithfully distribute, them." When, however, his oiler
was embraced, and Protestants were about to g
of the New Testament in h

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said there was ; but putting that
aside for the present he would state,..that on referring to Mr.
Belsham and Dr. Chatining, he found that they used a ver-
sion different to the authorised version. For the present he
would put aside the Unitarian Bible, but there was the Arian
Bible ; and with such a variety he wished to know what sort

of religious instruction they could get out of such a cauldron?
That would be turning the schools, in his opinion, into
nurseries of scepticism and infidelity, and the sooner they
were closed the better. - But to set aside altogether the argu-
ment in a religious point of view, or rather as regarded
which edition of the Bible was the best, he would put it upon
another footing. He thought that all would .support that
system which was calculated to produce the greatest amount
of morality in the mind. He might contrast Catholicism
with Protestantism and afterwards contrast Protestant Prus-
sia with almost demoralised Rome; he might contrast
England in opposition to those once great and magnificent
countries Spain and Portugal; but he would come nearer
home, and take the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland; and he was prepared to prove, that where Protest-
antism reigned and Catholicism and liomanism prevailed in
a lesser degree there was a greater amount of morality, and a
smaller amount of crime than in any other part of the em-
pire. If any gentleman should doubt this, he should be
happy to show him from some tables which he had drawn up
upon. the subject that such was the case ; and as he thought
a few figures were worth all the declamation in the world, lie
begged to call attention to them. Mr. Moore then read
some statistical tables, which proved clearly that where Pro-
testantism abounded crime was very much diminished, and
that the contrary was the fact in every country where Popery
Abounded. He should not dwell longer upon this subject.
It was his intention to have said much more, but he felt that
after the debate which had taken place it would be unneces-
sary. He should support the original motion.
Mr. BOLTON suggested that, as it was now past 3 o'cl,ck,
it would be advisable to adjourn. (Cries of " No, no.!')
Mr. PLATT briefly supported the amendment.
Mr. YATES said he could not let this measure pass with-
out entering his strongest protest against those principles
which had been laid down by the Education Committee. It
was asserted by the gentlemen on the other side. that they
thought the Roman catholics would not be driven out of the
schools, but how they could entertain that opinion when they
had a note from the Roman catholic clergy, saying the chil-
dren could not go to the schools on these terms, without
compromising their religious opinions, did appear to him to
be astonishing. It had been said by Mr. Parker, or some
other gentleman present, that the objections made by the Ro-

man catholics were very unreasonable, as all they required
the Roman catholics to do was to read the Bible, which would
guide them to heaven. Now, it was not for one man to judge
for another what it was his duty to do or not to do ; religion
was a thing between man and his maker, with which no one

should rashly interpose

Ti►e right of conscience was one

feared it would oppose

red yens'
nciple

,orn they w

misinterpret certain important texts, unaccompanied by
explanations." These facts have been very extensively
circulated, under the title of " Correspondence on the For-
mation, Objects, and Plan of the Roman Catholic Bible So-
ciety," 1813. Now, had he (Mr. B.) not effectually an-
swered, by these facts, the charge so constantly brought
against the conservatives, that they were about to exclude
the Scriptures from these schools ? It was here proved that,
supposing we were willing to give to Roman Catholics their
translation, upon the same terms on which we gave our own
—namely, without note or comment—they would not be
content to receive it. (Hear, hear.) It was not, then, for
the Scriptures, as such, which they contend, but for their
church's comments. The doctrines contained in these com-
ments he could not consent to teach • seeing, as he would
prove if necessary, by the notes which lie held in his hand,
that by the notes themselves, and, as he believed, not by the
text, were popish principles alone inculcated. Let us hear
no more, then, about depriving the Roman catholic children
of their Bible ; if they be deprived, let the blame rest where
it was so justly due. (Hear, hear.) He must apologise for
occupying so long the attention of the council, but he de-
sired to touch one other point. It was the fashion in these
" liberal" times to seize upon every opportunity to direct
" heavy blows and great discouragement," not only against
our church, but her ministers. Let any established prin-
ciple be contended for, and it was immediately denounced as
" bigotry and intolerance." Members of the establishment
are not permitted to declare any conscientious opinion. And
even with those who do not go to this extreme length, and
who consider themselves friendly to the protestant church,
there is a yielding and a truckling to what are called liberal
opinions which arc utterly contemptible. (Hear, hear.) To
show how different is the course of the Romish church in
such matters he would read to them an extract from a letter
from Rome, addressed to ear!, of the popish archbishops
of Ireland. It was given' at Rome, at the Propaganda, the
16th January, 1841, on the questions involved in the con-
troversy which has been raised in Ireland on the subject of
the new system of national education:—

against Christians this war was begun • it was the children
of Christians they were going to expel from their schools ;
they carried on a warfare againSt the great bulk of the Chris-
tians. If they refetred to the pages of history, they would
find men of the most distinguished talents,--"-of the most dis-
tinguished learning and piety—men of unbounded benevo-
lence—men willing to devote their lives as well as their per-
sonal exertions and sacrifices for the good of their fellow
creatures, and it was against such men that they were
now raising up their weapons of warfare. (Hear, hear,
hear.) He hoped and trusted that they would pause before
they did this. The same God who protected the Protestants
would protect the Roman Catholics also; the same liberty of
conscience had been given to Roman Catholics, and let not
Protestants dare to invade it. (Hear, hear.) They had the
power to do this, but Mr. Turner had wisely advised them
to use it with moderation. They had power to expel the
children—so had Herod, who was eaten with worms, when
he put to death the apostle James ; so had Nero power when
he put St. Paul to death ; so had Pontius Pilate, who died
in miserable exile, because he caused our Saviour to be con-
demned—but let them "not exercise their power unjustly.
With what horror would the luminaries of their church—the
Burnetts, Chillingworths, Taylors, and Jebbs—look down on
that assembly and see them plotting against Roman Catho-
lics ! (" Oh, oh !") With what horror would they see the
council of Liverpool restraining that right of conscience
which God had given to all ; above all, that the rich were
committing this act of spoliation on the poor—that the
strong had taken advantage of the weak? (Hear, hear.)
Should this go forth to the world? He trusted that gen-
tlemen would pause in this their headlong course. (Hear.)
It was said that they (the liberals) had received notice to
quit. If so, perhaps they could not do better than suffer this
resolution of the Education Committee to pass without re-
monstrance. They might thus strengthen themselves; but
he desired no such thing. He wished them to reconsider the
subject, and act in the spirit of true Christianity. He wished
them to consider the example of the 2000 ejected ministers
of the Church of England in 1662. That dishonourable
monarch, King Charles 11., regardless of the solemn pro-
mises contained in the declaration of Breda, that no man
should be molested in person or property on account of his
religious opinions, so long as he preserved the public peace,
was regardless of the pledge he gave when he wished to
ascend the throne of England, and expelled two thousand
ministers of the gospel. This expulsion lighted up the flame
of civil and religious liberty, which ultimately expelled his
successor from the throne. Now they were going to expel
nine hundred and thirty children from these schools; that
was an act of spoliation, injustice, and cruelty, which could
never pass unpunished. He was sure that they would relent
if they considered, in their own minds, that of these now
innocent, if they were turned out many of the boys might
become thieves and the girls prostitutes. (Hear and laughter)
If such were the consequences, would they still triumph ?
Would they still think that they had performed the will of
God?

" lst.-LThat all books which contain any noxious matter
either against the canon or the purity of the sacred scrip-
ture, or against the doctrine of the catholic church, or
morality, ought to be removed from:the schools ; hod this can
be more easily effected, because there is no law of the said
system opposed to it."
" 2d.—That every effort is to be made that none but a
Roman catholic preceptor shall give religious, moral, or
historical lectures to the catholic schoolmasters in the model
schools ; for it is not fitting that a catholic should be taught
the method of giving instruction in religion or religious
history by one who is not a catholic."

" 3d.—That it is much safer that literary instruction should
be given in mixed schools, than that the fundamental arti-
cles, as they are called, and the articles in which all Chris-
tians agree should alone be taught there in common, reserv-
ing for separate instruction the tenets peculiar to each sect ;
for this manlier of acting in regard to children, appears very
dangerous.

Mr. PARKER said he had been three times alluded to in
Mr. Yates's speech, and he begged to be allowed to explain.
(Cries of " No, no, and vote.")
Mr. PRIESTLEY supported the amendment.
Mr. BOLTON, seconded by Mr. Mellor moved, that the
debate he adjourned, on theground that the council might go
on for two or three hours longer, and have to adjourn at last.
On a division, which was taken by the members standing
up, the numbers were—

"4t11.-Z.That generally the bishops and the parish priests
should carefully watch that no taint be contracted by the
catholic children from this system of national instruction,
through any cause whatever. That the sacred congregation
is also of opinion that it would be very useful that the school
houses should be vested exclusively in the bishops or the pa-
rish priests. That it is also their duty strenuously to endea-
vour to obtain from the government, by degrees, a better
order of things, and more equitable conditions."
This (Mr. B. continued) is the uncompromising course of
our opponents; exhibiting a diligence, a watchfulness, and a
firmness which we should do well to imitate. (Hear, hear.)
After alluding to the plan of separating the Protestants from
the Roman Catholic children in the schools at the time of
singing and prayer, he concluded by suggesting to the wealthy
Roman Catholics the propriety of imitating the conduct of
the Protestants, should their children be really turned from
the schools, and subscribing, as did the latter, £15,000, ra-
ther than their children should suffer through the want of
education.
Mr. PA RICER said, that, before he expressed his sentiments
on this momentous question, he must be allowed to observe
upon some personal remarks which, coming from a gentleman
of Mr. Earle's station in life, were anything but gentlemanly
remarks. But to be chastised, or attempted to be chastised
by that individual in company with such a man as Mr.
M'Neile was the highest compliment that Mr. Earle could
have paid him. Though Mr. Earle drove about in his drag,
and talked about his education and descent, he (Mr. Parker)
was not ashamed to allude to his lineage, who had fought and
bled for th‘e principles which he stood in that council to ad-
vocate. (Hear, hear.) The most appropriate word in the
English language that he could apply to Mr. Earle's senti-
ments was that of " humbug ;" for from one end to the other
of his speech it was nothing else. He believed that the edu-
cation question had been the means of turning many of the
radical members out of the council, and that the rest of them
had got notice to quit. It had been said that the conserve-
live members had been dictated to by the Protestant clergy;
but such was not the fact. Had the Protestant clergy memo-
rialised the council ? No ; but, on the contrary, the Boman
Catholic clergy had done so. Four-fifths of the population
of the town were in favour of scriptural education in the
schools, and before the next council-day sixteen petitions
would, if necessary, be presented in opposition to the one
which hid emanated from the burgesses of Castle-street
Ward. He concluded by saying he should support the pro-
position of the Chairman of the Education Committee.
(Cries of " Vote, vote.')
Mr. GEORGE HALL LAWRENCE said, though lie intended
to vote in favour of the proposal that Mr. Turner had sub-
mitted, he was bound to say he must do so with some quali-
fication and restriction, inasmuch as it held out a desire to
encourage secular education independently of religion—a
proposition which he confessed he had some hesitation in
affirming. He had enquired right and left from various
friends whom he had met of all parties, and in particular
he had had several conversations upon the subject with a
reverend and near relative of his, upon whose opinions he
placed great reliance, and by whose advice he wished to act.
He must confess, however, that he had not been able to
arrive at the same conclusions as his respected relative, al-
though upon many points they entirely agreed. After some
further observations to the same effect, Mr. Lawrence con-
cluded by reading some extracts from a letter from his
relative, and said he should under all circumstances feel
bound to vote for the amendment.
Mr. BRADLEY-MOORE said that if Mr. Lawrence, at the
commencement of his speech, had not boldly told the coun-
cil how he intended to vote, he should have concluded after
his speech that he would have voted quite differently to what
he had said he would. He had informed the council that he
had consulted right and left every one with whom he had come
into contact ; but he (Mr. Moore) feared from the tenor of
his speech, and from his intended vote, that he had at last
got between two stools and fallen to the ground. (Hear,
hear.) It would be a matter of great regret to him (Mr.
Moore) if anything of the sort that was now proposed by the
committee should have the effect of driving from the schools
the Roman catholic children ; he did not apprehend that this
would be the case, but as touching the admission of more than
version he would not consent to that. He did not agree
with Mr. Bushell, who said he saw no objection to the intro-
duction of the Douay version. He (Mr. Moore) confessed
he had never read the Douay version till after the last meet-
ing of the council ; Ile bought one then, and perused it ; and
he therein found not only idolatry taught, liut a variety of
of objectionable matter that might be particularly noticed,
and if any gentleman wished it he could give instances of that.
(Cries of " no, no," and "go on.") He was one of those
who was disposed to let the community have the full benefit
of the Bible without note or comment as far as it could be
done ; but the same law gave them an authorised version of
the Bible and which constituted them trustees for the publ
recognised none other, therefore, he, for one, could not re-
commend any other. They, as petty law makers, and hum-
ble imitators of parliament, were bound not only by the de-
claration which they had subscribed on going into that coun-
cil not to injure the church, but to set an example of obedi-
ence to the laws, and their first point should be that they re-
cognised only one Bible to the exclusion of all others.
It was much to be regretted that this council should have
meddled with anything involving theological opinions ; but
as this necessity did unfortunately devolve upon them, they
must deal with it as they best could, and in the kindest feel-
ing towards those who differed from them. It was a matter
of great satisfaction to him that in this particular they had
the law of the land to guide them into'just conclusions • and
the law of the land distinctly recognized one Bible to the ex-
clusion of every other.

For the motion
Against it

Majority against adjourning.

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I hope that after this every gen-
tleman will be allowed to speak who has got any thing to say.
Mr. BOLTON said it was his wish to avoid any thing like
polemical discussion, but the question was so much on the ex-
clusive reading of the anthorized version, that he felt called
on to say a little on that subject. There were two matters
treating on the existing system of education in these schools.
One was the beginning with prayer and singing, and the other
was that the authorized version should be the book exclusively
taught to all children attending these schools. With a little
arrangement the prayer might be continued as it then was at
the South School, with which and with Mr. Turner's arrange-
men the should be satisfied. With regard to the introduction of
the authorized version only, they had the memorial of the
Catholic priests in Liverpool, and he had also taken pains to
ascertain the opinions of many of his friends who were Ca-
tholics, and they were unanimously of opinion that it would
be unjust, and, in its effects, exclude the Catholic children
from the schools, if the compulsory reading of the authorized
version was enforced. 'With that declaration before them he
did trust that the council would not carry by a majority a rule
which in its application would have such an unjust bearing.
It was perfectly true that there were schools belonging to
churches and chapels which made such regulations, because
they were at liberty to make what regulations they pleased ;
but he knew of one school with which he was connected, in
which there was perfect liberty given to the pupils to go to
any place of worship they liked, the only regulation was that
they should go to some place, and on their parents and guar-
dians undertaking that they should go to some place they were
allowed to leave Paradise-street. With regard to the au-
thorized version, if they could be convinced that it was a
direct emanation from God; that there was neither a word too
much nor a word too little in it, there might be something said
if mankind could be convinced ot that truth. What was the
authorized version? At the time of the Reformation there were
a variety of manuscripts and translations of the Bible in ex-
istence. The Protestant divines whom King James employed
took advantage of all the manuscripts and translations that
were then in existence ; and he (Mr. B.) gave them credit for
the utmost purity of intention. They gave as faithful a tran-
slation as they could, and it was then made the authorized
version of this country. But could any man now pretend
to say that with the increased knowledge they had now of eastern
customs, and the great number of manuscripts which had
been brought to light within the last few years, a translation
under all these circumstances would not be much different ?
The Douay version, which %N as a translation of' the vulgate,
boasted of a more ancient origin than their own text did, and,
therefore, was entitled to more credence. The celebrated
manuscript at Cambridge contained only four Gospels and
the Acts, and the rest were all collated from single manu-
scripts and epistles, and thus it was that they had it. Sottici,
of their bishops bad made a version of them, and in the same
way as bad been alluded to by Mr. Moore, they had what
was called the Unitarian version. It was true that Mr. Bel-
sham, Dr. Priestley, and others, had given what they thought
an amended edition of several parts which they considered
deficient. And as there was such a great difference of opinion
in many minds, it was but fair to give that measure of justice
to the Catholics, which they required for themselves. None
of them would like to have the Douay version as their school-
book, and why require Catholics to read their Protestant
version? One of the first maxims of Christianity was, to
" Do unto others as you would be done by," and why re-
quire, therefore, the Catholics to read a book which they
could not acknowledge as a due authority ? Something had
been said about the Catholics being one-sixth of the popula-
tion of Liverpool. He •believed one-fourth was nearer the
mark. Another gentleman had given them some statistical
accounts, and had drawn conclusions which it was not always
very fair to draw ; but there was one application of it which
would show that this number of Catholics could not be right.
In the statements published by the parish clerk, they would
find that the whole of the christenings in 1841 was 10,053,
and out of this number there were 2798 Catholics, which was
more than one-fourth. He believed the system which had
been introduced had been found to be one giving an excellent
secular education, and considerable instruction in religious
matters to the Catholics after their belief, and to the Pro-
testants after theirs. With regard to the number of Catholics
being greater, they must recollect that the Catholics were
three to one, or four in proportion to any other class. (Hear,
hear.) The catholics, as a body, had very few of the wealthy
amongst them, whilst all other denominations had a conside-
rable portion of the wealthy. The catholics, being the poorer,
were entitled to have this relief given to them. The Irish were
a very susceptible class of people. On the ground of their
poverty, they were entitled to have education administered
to them, and he would ask was it just or prurient to exclude
these persons from the benefit of a good education, which
they had enjoyed for six years, and subject themselves to that
natural resentment to which they would be subjected ? if
they would not consider the question on the score of justice,
let them consider it on the score of prudence. Two letters
of Crito had been published, and they furnished. an excellent
illustration. They presumed that if the Town Council were
to invite the whole of the inhabitants to a feast, and if they
were to offer to the Tews some pork, it would be considered
exceedingly ungracious; but would it not be equally bad in
them if the Town Council were to invite a number of Catho-
lics to dine on a fast-day or Friday, and say to them, " We
have prepared for you authorized roast beef; we know you
have an objection to it, but we have purposely excluded
fish ?" Why would they do the same way, then, by inviting
the Catholic children to their schools, when they knew that
their priests and parents could not conscientiously allow
them. They should ever bear in mind that the funds were
for the benefit of the whoie inhabitants. He hoped that
would always he kept in mind. It bad been said, ' Sell the

A COUNCILLOR—No, no.
Mr. BRAMLRY-MOORE—Did the law of the land recognize
any other?

Mr. FREM E said the law of the land did not recognize any
Bible at all. There was nothing about it in the municipal
act.

Mr. BRAIALEY-MOORE WORM like to ask gentlemen if they
Wished to have more than one version of the Bible, if they
would have the Arian Bible, the Swedenborgian Bible, the
Douay Bible, and the Unitarian Bible ?
Mr. BARCLAY inquired what was the Unitarian Bible, for
he had never heard of it.

chools. Perhaps there was some justice in that considera-
tion, if they could not be carried on peaceably. He beliesed
they had hitherto been carried on peaceably—(loud cries of
" No, no,")—and to the advantage of the public in general
nd the poor Irish. --Be this as it might, the Corporation,
the Municipal ' --as pr caw- 'o

ACC NV. asst.., _le possession
of these schools, and they were botind to deal with them as
the act directed. Mr. Bushell had said he had no objection
to the Douay version without notes. He was surprised at
such a statement, when it was known that it was the peculiar
opinion of the Catholics that they were not to have any
opinion of their own, only that which their church gave them.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Busum.L.—Notes are not Scripture.

Mr. BOLTON.—What were catechisms but notes on scrip-
ture? Something bad been said about new schools; and if
that was the only result which was to follow, he should be
extremely glad that from 12,000. to 14,000 had been raised
for the education of the poor protestant. scholars. It was a
very laudable object, spurred on as the people were by the
course the council adopted. It had been said that the pro-
testants had been excluded. He denied it. He had given
notice of an instruction to the Education. Committc

time ago, and had withdrawn it from a hope that a spirit of
conciliation was showing itself in some of the parties by a
vote which they had given ; and at the same time intimated
that he had been induced to give notice of that motion in
consequence of some undue influence exercised over the com-
mittee of these schools by an individual who did, in some
degree, upset their deliberations. He attended at the south
schools, and on reading the books he found the matter he
went to inquire for, and which he had seen before. It was
as follows:

" At a meeting of the South School Sub-committee, held
23d, November, 1841:

PRESENT,

G. H. Lawrence, Chairman, Thomas Sands, H. R. Sand-
Inch, John Platt, A.. Smith, jun., Thomas Bulley, Ebenezer
Rae, Richard Harhord. The following letter was received
from the Ladies' Committee:—

" The Ladies who have visited the Smith Corporation
girls' and infants' Schools, have considered their charge as
ending with the committee, which had appointed them, and
have therefore waited to be re-appointed by the new com-
mittee before meeting again.. Till their wishes are known,
the ladies will continue each to attend to the particular
charges they have severally undertaken, and which, they
would relinquish with regret."
The following reply was mare by the chairman to the above.
" Madam,—ln reply to your communication of the 9th

. -
instant, on the part of the ladies who have been in the habit
of visiting the South Corporation Schools, I am desired to
state, that the sub-committee are sensible of the value of the
ladies' assistance—they invite them to continue to visit the
schools, as heretofore, and they trust there will be nothing

in the mode of conducting them that will de

give the cotu-

mittee of the co-operation of the ladies."
(Signed) ", G. H. LAWRENCE, Chairman.
November 23, 1841.
Mr. HODGSON.—Mr.Lawrence, did you sign that?
Mr. G. fl. LAWRENCE.—No.

which they ought never to relinquish ; it could neither be
bought nor sold ; they might at times give up property, they
might give up personal liberty, or even their lives, when they
thought that their country'retptired the sacrifice ;" but they
Could never give up their conscience : that was a a thing en- _
trusted to them to be preserved until the day of their death. Mr. BOLTON heard that, after the business of the corn-
If it were important that they should acknowledge the rights mittee was over, a gentleman who was on the School Corn-
of conscience and religious liberty as regarded those who had mittee, but was appointed to take the management of the
arrived at years of maturity and were'able to judge for them- North School, came into the school, asked what they were
selves, how much more important was it that they should not about, and, as he (Mr. B.) was informed, was exceedingly
attempt to violate the consciences of children, to contand- angry, and said they had no right to send such a letter. Ile
nate their truth, ingenuousness, and unsullied purity, by was also informed, by the records of the committee, that the
causing them to say that that was true which they believed general committee referred this matter back. He did not
in their hearts to be false? Would they dare to violate their find that the general committee or the sub-committee had
consciences by telling them to do that which they were told again considered it; but the schoolmaster had communicated
by their priests and religious teachers it was improper for the information that the letter had been sent, and that it
them to do? What was it that caused our Saviour to place ought not to have been sent. Now, if gentlemen, by their
little children in the midst of his disciples, and so tell them influence, could keep back that which was regularly
that of such was the kingdom of heaven ? Was it not inge- ordered to be sent, he was fully justified in expressing
nuousness and purity of mind; and would they dare to taint , his doubt that those gentlemen on that committee would

le chairman of t

_ (Much confusion.) He maintained that there
were some gentlemen who dared not act up to their own prin-
ciples. (Cries of " Question, question.") He had heard it
from parties who were there, and it had brew printed in the
papers that, at some protestant meeting, a rev. gentleman re-
presented that at the next meeting of the council conserva-
tives would all vote right. Was it befitting a priest, whose
duty it was to mind his congregation, to come into forums
and to be lecturing their people, saying that the corporation
would be all right ? Were the corporation of Liverpool to be
priest-ridden in that way ? (Cries of " No, no," and " Vote,
vote.") He had not much more to say. He exceedingly re-
gretted the fanatical spirit which had risen up since the Irish
priests had come amongst them. It might be traced to what
he would call their unholy influence. The feelings which he
entertained on religion were directly opposed to the Roman
catholics, but he was answerable alone to his Maker for the
convictions to which he had come. Believing that the peace
of the town and the interests of the town would be promoted
by going on as they had done, he would most heartily sup-
port Mr. Turner's amendment.
Mr. HARBORD felt called upon to say a few words, in order
to clear himself from some aspersions that had been directed
towards him by Mr. Bolton, and also with the view of putting
the council in a correct position. A letter certainly was pre-
pared to be sent to the ladies' committee, when it fortunately
met the notice of one of the committee of the North School
at the eleventh hour. Although he (Mr. Harbord) did not
then object to the ladies being re-appointed, he never gave
his voice in favour of their appointment; indeed, he ob-
jected to it at the first. He protested against it, but he was
told by members of the committee that the ladies had nothing
to do with religious instruction—that their duties were ex-
clusively secular; and upon that assurance he withdrew his
objection. The letter was prepared, and Mr. Hodgson cer-
tainly cautioned the sub-committee against sending it. In
the mean time he and a friend of his went to the school,
and they found that the information which had been given
to them, by a member of the committee, that the ladies did
not engage in giving religious instruction had been given
without knowledge, to say the least of it. They met a lady
of the Ladies' Committee, and he (Mr. Harbord) put the
question to her, and her reply was, " Oh, dear sir, religious
instruction is the chief part of our duty ; we take the greatest
delight in it; I, for my own part, take the Church of Eng-
land and protestant children, and Mrs. Rathlmne takes the
Roman catholic children." The letter was not bent, there-
fore; the chairman had not signed it; and upon inquiry it
appeared that the schoolmaster had taken upon himself to
send the letter without the knowledge of the chairman.

and saw
dently.

jumped

e was independeut,

1 act indepea

Mr. HODGSON said the letter had • ... - - • -beenVsiyued,

Mr. Alderman EARLE said it was signed in the book

Mr. BOLTON said he saw it signed the iioa-yesierClay
•

Mr. HAIL/10RD said the fact was, the sub-committee had
been grossly deceived, and he thought it was indispensable
for that council to know what the workings of the school
were. He had in his possession, by request of the com-
mittee, some of the books that were used which had been
introduced somewhere about the same time as the Donny
version. One of them was called the Customs and Annals
of the Jews, and it was brought to the committee among
others by the schoolmaster. On opening it in the presence
of all the committee, they found a number of erasures in it,
and the question was put to the master, whether he had
struck those passages out. He replied no. Is this book
used in the school? Yes. By whose authority were these
erasures made? Why, sir, he said, the books have been sent
to the priest, and these erasures were made by the priest.
On the committee referring to them, they saw that the his-
torical accounts of the inhuman and murderous conduct of
the Roman Catholics towards the Jews had all been carefully
struck out ! He could tell the council much more than this,
but under the circumstances he would not allude to anything
further. Mr. Harbord then referred to several matters in
the mode of managing the schools, and concluded by saying,
that in the case referred to, the committee had been grossly
deceived. (Cries of " Vote, vote.")
Mr. FREME moved an adjournment. (No, no.)
Mr. AIKIN rose amidst loud cries of " spoke, spoke."
These continuing for some time, he exclaimed—l have no
hesitation in saying that rather than submit to this dictation
I shall continue to move an adjournment from hour to hour
if I keep you here till midnight. _

Mr. i-lODGSON hoped thelmayor would not allow the coun-
cil to be intimidated in this manner.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—lntimidation ! Every man has
aright to move an adjournment.
Mr. AIKIN repeated that if he was not allowed to speak,
he should persist in moving an adjournment.

After some further discussion Of a warm character, a divi-
sion was taken on Mr. Freme's motion for an adjournment,
when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it 34
• The amendment was consequently lost.

The following gentlemen voted in the division :

For the motioii—Councillors, I. Holmes, Thornhill, Pres-
ton, H. Holmes, Mellor, J. Holmes, Bolton, Aikin, Bright,
Priestley, Yates, Robinson, J. Smith, Jordan, Platt, and
Mather. Aldermen, Holt, Bulley, Freme, Fvans, Barclay,
Earl, Moon, and Turner.
Against the motion—Councillors, Shaw, Shand, Hodgson,
Sandbach, Copeland, Edwards, Blundell, Sands, Rae, As-
pinall, Toulmin, J. Lawrence, Cooper, Wood, Birkett, Glad-
stone, Bushell, Procter, Lloyd, Rigby, Kilshaw, Parker,
Jones, jun., G. H. Lawrence, Smith, jun., and Harbord.
Aldermen, Houghton, Nicol, Griffith, Chilton, Bramley-
Moore, Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor.
After a few remarks from Mr. BOLTON,

The MAYOR intimated that Mr. Aikin might proceed.
Mr. AIKIN said that in speaking of this subject he could
not but refer back to the great promises of liberality held out
to them. In that liberality a new light had begun to dawn
upon them, and of which they had had so many promises
from some members of the council. At that time a propo-
sition was made to appoint a committee, and in the course of
the discussion a gentleman threw out his views as to the
resolution that he would agree to. He was not allowed to
speak ; he was coughed down by his own party, and it was
assumed that he would disgust some others of his own party.
A motion was made to adjourn, with a view to the formation
of a committee of a more liberal nature In the first place
about live of the minority were introduced, and in the very
committee so proposed these five were reduced to three—
Messrs. Priestley, Bulley, and Platt. Instead of a more
conciliatory committee being chosen, a committee much worse
was chosen, and why ? Because that party was taken to task by
some who had supported him. They found also in Toxteth
park another person. " I have been a very naughty boy, but
if you forgive me, I do promise I will never indulge these
radicals by supporting any more of their motions." It had
been said that they had no right to discuss anything said in the
pulpit, but if they found that an undue liberty had been taken,
he said he had a right to denounce it as a desecration of that
holy place, and to say that that pulpit had been perverted to a
most unholy purpose. And he said that if they found that
upon this very question, on which so much hung towards the
well-being of Ireland—the orange system which had been so
long the curse of that country, was about to be introduced
into Liverpool, he could not help rising to exclaim against the
danger with which they were threatened, and he would say
that the individual to whom he alluded, was no better than
the great high priest of mischief who dictated to any person
in this matter.

Mr. BUSHELL said Mr. Aikin looked at him as he spoke,
and he believed he alluded to him. He wished Mr. Aikin to
understand that he disclaimed any influence having been
used towards him. He pledged his hcnour that such in-
terference had had no influence on his mind, and Mr. Aikin
should be satisfied with that. (Hcar, hear.)
Mr. ATKIN had not mentioned any individual, but if Mr.
Bushell found it applied a little to himself he could not help
it. (Laughter.) He begged of Mr. Bushell, who was not a
little impatient when any person interrupted him, to allow
him to proceed in his own course, and perhaps some person
might brush off the wasp as he had done to his friends oppo-
site. (Laughter.) He would now leave that subject.
Mr. BUSHELL.—The sooner the better, Sir, unless you
are less personal._ _ .

Mr. AIKIN said the personalities had taken place in conse-
quence of the interruptions, especially so in the case of Mr.
Parker. Mr. G. H. Lawrence had said, that he was half
inclined to support the erection of schools for secular in•
struction ; now, if that half became a whole, he thought they
might be able to come to some conclusion. It would save
the time of the Council if they would come to the conclusion
that the Douay version only, without notes, should be intro-
duced into the schools. _

A CoimiciLLoß.—The clergy would not allow it.
Mr. Amp; knew that; but he (Mr, Bushell) had stated
his willingness to do so, and he was quite sure if he would
persevere in it every difficulty would disappear. A variety of
arguments had been introduced about the tyranny of Roman
Catholics, and about the priesthood of that persuasion, at
the time they had dominant power. He was quite sure that,
whatever priesthood had the dominant power, so long as hu-
man nature remained as it was, that power would
,ever be
abused : but if they raked up old things, was it any excuse for
them to do an act of injustice on others because they had the
power. Would it not be better to show that they, having the
power, did not abuse it, and that the more their principles

were examined, and the more they were diffused, the sounder
would be the foundation on which their church would be
raised ? Would it not be perfectly clear, that if the Protes-
tants were on the right, side, and the Catholics and Protes-
tants mingling together—that they being perfectly conscious
that their dcctrine was based on the truth—was it not per.
feetly clear that truth would prevail, and, by an amalgama-
tion of the two classes, a better state of kindly feeling would
exist in future' life, rather than that produced by knowing
that they were denounced from the pulpit? He recollected
very well that, at the school he was educated in Scotland, he
never saw the Bible introduced.

Mr. MooaE.—
regard for it.

-That accounts for your having so little

Mr. ATKIN heard a member say that was the reason why he
had so little regard for it. He believed those had the great-
est regard for it who made the least profession. (Hear, hear.)
Whenever religion was obtruded on the world, he believed it
was to cover some serious error. If they were satisfied that

education would do good, then they must, as honest men,
give that education to those who were inclined to receive kin
their own peculiar way. It was absurd to say to Catholic
parents " We do not want to drive away your children,"
and then introduce such rules as would drive them away.
Would it not be more honest to say, " No, we will have done
with you," than to pass rules to drive them away? A great
compliment had been paid to him. It had been said by one
gentleman (Mr. Parker) in consequence of reading the me-
morial so well, he supposed that it was his own production.
A greater compliment was never paid to him ; he only wished
he could write such a one. They had been told that they
could get sixteen memorials of an opposite tendency ; but
he did not care if there were one thousand six hundred
he would hold that up as a satisfactory reply to all. Mr. Moore
had said something about the Douay version teaching islolatry.
That had nothing to do with the question ; there was no propo-
sition about the Douay version. It was proposed if this amend-
ment were carried, that noDouay version should be introduced.
His statistics also would not tell very much in his favour.
He made it out that there was less crime in Scotland.
That was easily accounted for. There was less, and had
been ever since they became an educated people. It might
be in the knowledge of many of them, that if there was any
portion of the United Kingdom were crime was carried on to
a greater extent than another it was on the borders of Scot-
land, where thieving was considered as a good pursuit, but
when education was introduced, they gradually sprang from
beinc, the most immoral to one of the most orderly portions
of the community. "0, but," it would be said, " they have
a religious education." He would tell them lie never saw a

Bible in the school, and in the school were his children were
educated not a Bible was seen till within a very recent period,
and he was quite sure that any one there sending his children
to learn any branch of secular education, would deem it un-
wise that that the child he educated in any branch of religion.
Religion was better taught at the fireside, even in the hum-

blesi cottage, and the Bible was more reverenced by being
read at home than by being read as a class book. With re-
gard to the other statistics, it was well 'known that where the
carcase was there the crows would be. Where there was a
large amount of property there the pickers and stealers
would be. But in agricultural districts, where there was
not the same temptation to crime there had been less cri-
minality. But they ought to recollect that the great mass
of criminals committed to their gaols were unable to read or
write. After hoping that what Ile had said with regard to
individuals might not be taken in the wrong spirit, Mr.
Aikin concluded by saying that he was quite of opinion that
a secular education, without any portion of religious in-
struction but what the parents or religious teachers might
give, was all that was necessary, but as Mr. Turner's amend.
meat was more likely to be carried he would vote for that
(Renewed cries of " vote, vote

Mclennan EVANS rose to speak, but looking to Mr
- e said he would wait till be had done if be chose,

liodgsor.,
Mr. Hopes

le would s;

id say with r

that coon,

useless. He would put it to gentlemen whether they would
take the responsibility on themselves of refusing a mere
secular education, because the party demanding it, and who
had a right to demand it, would not also accept their religi-
ous education with it? He would ask whether gentlemen
would take the awful responsibility on themselves of refusing
any knowledge because it will be accepted by itself alone ?
They had heard a great deal about results and consequences,
and he would say that every gentleman who would answer
him in the affirmative would feel himself responsible for all
the ignorance and immorality, and for the mental destitution
of all those .children, whom they, in that manner, ejected
from the schools. He had on former occasions observed,
and had heard it repeated with some satisfaction by
Mr. Turner, that they were not an ecclesiastical assem-
bly : they were lay trustees with lay funds, for lay pur-
poses. (Hear, hear.) They bad no right to arrogate to
themselves those rights and privileges that would belong to
an ecclesiastical meeting, who were dealing with ecclesiastical
funds, and, therefore, might make what regulations they
pleased, however exclusive they were in their effects. He
had heard it said, that in the population of Liverpool, the
proportion of the Catholics was 1-6th, but he believed it was
nearer 1-4th ; now if they were to go by that on the aggregate
he maintained, that they were the great majority of the hum-
ble, and in their right as poor was their right to education.
Neither they nor he would have a right to go into the poor-
house to get lodging, food, or raiment, nor could they send
their children to the Corporation Schools to get gratuitous
education. No, they should not show that little which the
Irish could pre-eminently show the Corporation Schools
above any other part of the population. It was in their po-
verty that their right existed, and, therefore, it was in vain to
act by statistical accounts. Catholics had a right to educa-
tion as the pauper had a right to the poor rates. To deny
the Catholics their fair proportion of education was trying
to introduce a species of penal law. It was nearly in
bis own time, and he was not sure whether it was not
since he himself was brought into the world, that Ca-
tholics were not allowed to hold land, and that if any others
could give information of a certain kind, they could disinherit
them ; and that if a Catholic was on horseback, he might
he dismounted, and the horse was taken by any one who ob-
served him. He was alluding to what had existed, but the
Legislature had been gradually doing away with it ; but in
taking away their public rights, they were actually inflicting
penal laws on their persons. Mr. Bushell had said that this
subject was made as valuable as possible in the different
wards, in order to put down the Liberal party. Amongst
other methods for this purpose, one was to go round and in
trigue amongst the population to keep away the Protestants
as much as possible from the Corporation schools. And
now as the cry had answered their purpose, he hoped they
would not pursue a wicked policy. A number of Conserva-
tives, and a number of the Conservative leaders he knew to
be with them on that question, hut they declared that they
were party-ridden, newspaper-ridden, and priest-ridden.
(Hear, hear.) That was the reason they preferred the in-
terest and furtherance of their party to obeying the dictates
of their own conscience. (Name, name.)
Mr. PARKER.—I call on you to name them ; and if you
do not, I say your statement is false. (Hear, hear, and
much confusion.)__ . _

Mr. Alderman-EVANS never heard the word false applied
to him unmoved, and he must ask the gentleman to withdraw
that word. He never used such words himself. The word
erroneous was not so offensive, and he called on him to re-
tract the word false. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PARKER. was very willing to place the word erroneous
for false, but to give up the point he would not. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.)

Mr. Alderman EVANS would beg of the gentlemen to whom
he had alluded to be content with having got into their
hands all the power they had. It was unwise for the Con-
servative leaders now to follow the tail which, as many had
hinted, appeared to govern the Conservative party, as the
tail governed the head of the fish. (Laughter. and
cries of " Vote, vote.") As they had been kept there
against their will, and has he had heard a great many other
speeches, he would take his time. The same arrange-
ment had existed for six years, and the system had worked
uncommon well. What were the risks the children of the
Protestants underwent under the present system? They had
been in collision, and yet they had heard of no conversions,
nor did he believe there was one of the children troubled
their head about the matter. They had lasird of the collegi-
ate and of the church schools, and of the rights of the domi-
nant constituency to do what they liked with education. He
denied that anything of the sort existed. The collegiate and
the other institutions were under the obligation of obeying
the laws. There was nothing in the municipal law that left
anything in doubt as to the equality of all orders in the coun-
try. In enacting measures which would exclude the Catholic
children, they became in degree without using arms or wea-
pons, and did their work exactly in the same way as the
Mahometans and Arabs. They endeavoured to entrap on
the one hand, and to proselytise on the other. With regard
to conciliating the clergy, he believed they were conciliated
when the liberals were defeated. (Hear.) Mr. Lawrence had
said that the Catholics were opposed to all education. Was
that a proper assertion in Liverpool ? 'Were there not several
Catholic schools? and he had heard that Si:. Domingo had
been purchased fora seminary for the higher orders. It was
the Catholics who led the way in education. (Cries of "no." )
They had heard it asserted that they were disparaging the
Protestant religion ; but he did not think that they were serv-
ing it whenever thy attempted to support it by what he
must call erroneous evidence or reasoning. In Prussia and
Switzerland there were a great many Catholics ; and how did
they do there? Were they not recognized in every way on
an equality ? Every way to the throne was open to them ;
and was not the schooling carried on as it was here? As to
Spain; they had heard of. Spain, but if they looked to Wirtem-
berg, Bavaria, and Belgium, it was, after all, one of the best
inhabited countries in the world ; a most industrious people—
a people probably of more local wealth, in the same surface,
than was to be found in the whole of Europe. And now be
would come home to Ireland; and the outrages which had
occurred there had been attributed to the prevalence of the
Catholic religion. That argued a very slight knowledge of
anything but mere figure statistics, in any gentleman to adduce
Ireland as an example of evils, being conciliated by any one
particular religion. The evils of Ireland‘consisted in a vicious
distribution of the wealth of that country, where 19 out of
20 were reduced to beggaary by the laws of primogeniture,
an absentee aristocracy, ar a dominant and rapacious church,
one of whose late archbishops, the Archbishop of Armagh,
one of the Beresford family, lately left £500,000. Exist-
ence in such a country was a great misfortune : nineteen out
of twenty were uninterested in the laws, and knew not how
to live from day to day. It was quite absurd to account
for these circumstances other than by the destitution of
the people. He would not trouble them any longer than
to state, that if they were wanting to conciliate any party,
they were doing it at a tremendous expense of morality
and justice.

Mi. SANDS.—It is somewhat amusing to hear gentlemen
on the other side affect surprise at the course we are intend-
ing to pursue—great surprise that we are about to carry out
the very principles which we have all along advocated. From
the first we have opposed the Roman Catholic system of edu-
cation, which they introduced—and the town has opposed it,
and the town will oppose it. The town will assert its right
to have the schools conducted upon Protestant principles;
and if we (the conservatives) refuse to carry out these prin-
ciples, it will turn us out, as it has done the opposite party.
As conservatives, we have always laid it down as a principle,
that religious instruction should accompany secular education.
Well, then, upon what basis will you ground your religious
instruction? upon the authorised version of the scriptures,
or upon the Douay translation? But it is said that the chil-
dren of Roman Catholics will leave the school. Why, the
came was said twelve months ago, when it was proposed to
introduce prayers into the schools;—and what has been the
result. Not one, I believe, has left the schools in conse-
quence of it; and I hope that the proposed plan of conduct-
ing the schools will not have the effect predicted by several
gentlemen on the opposite side. The Roman Catholics are
not so bigoted as many persons are disposed to represent
them, and I hope they will continue to avail themselves of
the benefits of these schools. I shall support the original
motion.

Mr. BULLET' supported the amendment and entered at
some length into the matter of the letter from the Edu-
cation Sub-committee to the Ladies' committee ; and he
added that the mistress of the north school had written
a-letter which had been kept back from some motive or
other.

Mr. Hooosox explained the part he had taken with re-
ference to the letter, and requested Mr. G. H. Lawrence
to state what had taken place, himself.

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCi said that the sub-committee did
agree on that letter. There was no doubt of that. They
did agree to send the letter; they thought it only an act of
courtesy; they expressed a hope that the changes they
were about to propose, would
not drive the ladies out of the
school. That was the position in which it was left. The
committee broke up, and when he was in the act of writ-
ing the letter in his best hand, Mr. Hodgson came in and
said, very properly, they were taking on themselves to do
a great deal more than they ought, and that it would be
as well to defer sending the letter until the general cow-

mittee met, • which would be on the next day. He felt that
he was in some difficulty, because his brother committee-
men might think he was acting with partiality. He listened
to Mr.lHodgson, and at last said, the letter should not go.
His impression was, that he had carried it away with him,
but there were two copies, and he took away the wrong
one •, but that letter was never signed by him.
Mr. MoLYNEux then replied very briefly, and the coun-
cil divided on the amendment, when there appeared
For the amendment
Against it . 32
The amendment was consequently lost.
The following gentlemen voted in the division : •
For the amendment :—Councillors, Thornhill, Preston,
H. Holmes, Mellor, Bolton, Aikin. Bright, Priestley, Yates,
Robinson, Smith, G. H. Lawrence, Jordan, Platt, and
Mather. Aldermen, !Holt, Bulley, Freme, Evans, Barclay,
Earle, Moon, Nicol, and Turner.

Against the amendment :—Councillors, Shaw, Shand,
Hodgson, Sandbach, Copeland, Edwards, Blundell, Sands,
Rae, Aspinall, Toulmin, J. Lawrence, Cooper, Wood, Bir-
kett, Gladstone, Bushell, Procter, Lloyd, Rigby, Kilshaw,
Parker, Jones, jun., Smith, jun., and Harbord. Aldermen
Houghton, Griffith, Chilton, Bramley Moore, Molyneux,
Crook, and the Mayor.

Mr. RonlNson's' amendment was then seconded by Mr.
BRIGHT, and a division took place. The numbers were—
For the amendment
-Against it
The amendment was therefore lost.
The following gentlemen voted in the division :
For the amendment :—Councillors Thornhill, Preston,
Mellor, Bolton, Aikin, Bright, Priestley, Yates, Robinson,
Jordan, Platt, and Mather. Aldermen, Bulky, Freme, Bar-
clay, Earle, and Moon.

Against the amendment :--Councillors, Shaw, Shand,
Hodgson, Sandbach, Copeland, Edwards, Blundell, Rae,
Aspinall, Toultnin, J. Lawrence, Cooper, Wood, Birkett,
Gladstone, Bushell, Procter, Lloyd, Rigby, Kilshaw, Parker,
Jones, jun., G. H. Lawrence, Smith, jun., and Harbord.
Aldermen Houghton, Nicol, Griffith, Turner, Chilton, Bra.tn-
ley Moore, Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor.
We believe that Mr. Sands paired off with Mr. Evans.
I division was immediately after come to on the ori-
ion, when there appeared—
For the motion

Against it

The follo.%;ing gentlemen voted in the division

For the motion:—Councillors, Shaw, Shand, Hodgson,
Sandbacli, Copeland, Edwards, Blundell, Rae. Aspinall, Tool-
min, Cooper, Wood, Birkett, Gladstone, Bushell, Procter,
Lloyds, Rigby, Kilshaw, Parker, Jones, jun., G. H. Law-
rence, Smith, jun., and Harbord. Aldermen, Houghton,
Griffith, Chilton, Brumley Moore, Molyneux, Crook, and
the Mayor.

Against the motion:—Councillors, Preston, _._
Aikin, Priestley, Yates, J. Lawrence, and Platt
ulley, Freme, Barclay, Earle, and Turner.
The report of the committee was accordingly adopted,
and the council adjourned, at ten minutes to six o'clock,
to eleven on Wednesday next, for the despatch of the re-
maining business.

Mellor, Bolton,
Aldermen,

k SKETCH OF THE DEBATE IN THE
COUNCIL
UPON THE EDUCATION QUESTION

TOWN

BY AN EYE-WITNESS OF TUE PROCEEDINGS

Upon the opening of the Council Chamber on Wednesday,
the coup d' wit presented to us was of rather an imposing cha-
racter. The attendance of members was very :numerous,
and an air of seriousness might have been observed upon the
countenances of all, with the exception of a few gentlemen;
whom we could particularize, and who, having nothing wor-

Some half-dozen of the would-be lights of
Could see in a glance were " big with speed

assembly w
The astonish

ing Smith—Join, of West Derby—liad a world of porten-
tous meaning in his looks ; the amiable-looking alderman,
who subsequently led the van in the opposing army was full
of bustle, as he moved up and down on the recruiting
service, seeking for a seconder to his forthcoming amend-
ment ; and smiling but dangerous, his brother alderman, of
Abercromby, whirled round upon his pivot as he conned his
notes and a worm-eaten copy of the Mercury ; whilst the
enlightened chairman of the Watch Committee and luminary
of Scotland Market directed, ever and anon, the two lights
which adorn his whitey-brown edition of a mortal counte-
nance, with a glance of muddled, wondering satisfaction
upon the preparations for the approaching fray.
We pass over the preliminary portion of the proceedings,
—the reading of the various committee reports—which were
gone through amidst noise and confusion of a vastly edifying
description, a considerable portion of which was the produc-
tion of Mr. Thornhill, of Scotland Ward, who gabbled
across the table, by no means sotto voce, a kind of running
accompaniment. The only feature worthy of notice was the
opposition offered by the Joseph Hume of the council—Mr.
Thomas Bolton—to the appointment of an extra porter in
the Town-hall establishment. The present messengers, the
liberal ex-mayor observed, were not always busy; and when
they were, the cook—his ex-worship seemed to think—might
leave her dripping tins to run errands, and the kitchen-maids
answer the hall door. Perhaps during his worship's regime
such an arrangement might have been sufficiently feasible;
and these useful officials performed such extra service with;-
out great injury to the victualling department. But "on a
cliange".tout cela," under the new order of things, appeared
to be the impression of the most rigid economists in the
council ; and the pitiful " tottle of th whole" saving of our
municipal " Joseph "—the sum of. 245. a week—was irreco-
verably lost sight of. By-the-bye, we would recommend to
Mr. Bolton a rigid scrutiny into the candle-end and dripping
department in the Town-hall during the present mayoralty,
which it strikes us may become worthy of notice, as an item
of revenue, and ought, upon principle, to go to the borough
fund.

At length the preliminary skirmishing was at an end.
"Now begins the fight!"—was jerked out by one self-com
placent member ; and, when the Deputy Town-clerk began
to read the proceedings of the Education Committee, a sud-
den quiet pervaded th hitherto unruly Council, and

" The boldest held their breath
For a time."

There were glances and winks exchanged between friends,
and looks of defiance between opponents, as one by one, the
resolutions of the committee were enunciated ; more than
one honourable gentleman looked up to the ceiling in affected
consternation and wonder ; the renowned and immortal
Smith, of West Derby, buttoned his coat, and then unbut-
toned it; W►n. Earle whisked round upon his seat, clutched
his notes and his Mercury, " grinned horribly a ghastly
smile" at David Hodgson as the author of his woe, and,
after a look, which said "you did it," as plain as possible,
whisked round again. Francis Jordan threw out his legs,
and threw back his head, with a snort, which startled his
neighbour, Mr. Priestley ; and Mr. Robinson, of Great
George's, fumbled with his hands, unfolded half a sheet of
his hieroglyphics, and attempted to read them, whilst his be-
wildered look told as distinctly as anything so expression-
less can speak—" I'm going to make a kettle of fish of
myself."

The confirmation of the proceedings having been moved,
with a brief preface, by Mr. Molyneux, and as briefly se-
conded by Mr. liarbord,
Mr. James Aikin rose to read a sermon—and read it well,
we admit—which purported to be a memorial from the bur-
gesses of Castle-street ward, and which he very kindly in-
formed the council had been got up by certain gentlemen
only the day or two days before, upon hearing (of course for
the first time) what most people had heard a week or two
ago, viz., the nature of the resolution adopted by the educa-
tion committee. The said memorial—of course again—was
signed by the excessively " liberal" gentlemen of the ward—
the Walmsleys, Thornhills, et hoc genus omne, not forget-
ting even the enlightened Mr. Anthony Barnes—overflowed
with milk-and-honey expressions of charity towards the poor
Popish children, dilated upon the vast advantages of seculir
education, and warned the council of the dangerous and un-
christian (!) course which they were about to pursue. Such,
indeed, was the excellence and eloquence of this production,
that Mr. Aikin intimated his unwillingness to weaken its ef-
fect upon the council by any remarks of his own—a determi-
nation which, for his own sake, we sincerely wish he had
faithfully adhered to.

Mr. Alderman Turner then rose, amidst a hum of
expectation, to propose an amendment. Upon the speech
or the manner of Mr. Turner we shall not say much.
The former was evidently an effort of memory; apologetic,
and almost trimming, but gentlemanly in tone and ex-
pression. We can conceive such a speech, and the course
of action which it held out, to have been dictated by honesty,
of purpose ; but we are compelled to doubt the existence
of the " moral courage," of which the speaker boasted
the possession (and which boast elicited, we will not say, an
incredulous " hear" from Mr. Francis Jordan), and are ra-
ther inclined to fear that it is to the want of that valuable
property that we must attribute Mr. Turner's declension
from the path of principle upon this question. We have no
wish to quarrel with the worthy alderman for the course—
happily innoxious save to himself—which he has pursued.
We regret it deeply ; and we have mistaken the charactei of
Mr. Turner if now, after the experience which this day's de-
bate must have afforded him of the animus towards institu-
tions and principles which he venerates, by which the liberal
party are actuated in their proceedings upon this question, he
does not regret it himself, and is not thoroughly disgusted
with the contemplation of a nearer association into which
they would so gladly draw him.

A brief and hasty discussion then took place upon a ques-
tion of form, as to the precedence to which Mr. Aikin's mo-
tion to submit his memorial to the education committee was
entitled. Mr. Aikin didn't think that lie had made a direct
motion. Mr. Bolton contended that he had merely presented
the memorial; but, unfortunately for the correctness of the
latter gentleman's memory, it transpired, from a malapropos
record (in such cases), which is kept by the town-clerk or
his deputy, that a motion had been made, and had even been
seconded, and, after being thus formally ushered into life.
that Mr. Thomas Bolton had himself stood up to second it a
second time ! How zeal does sometimes outrun discretion !
The difficulty was, however, got over; and the redoubta-
ble John Smith got up, piping hot, to do the honours of a
second parent to Mr. Turner's amendment. " Fierce as
ten thousand furies, terrible as"—a fishwoman in her cups,
or as any other lady who for three long weeks has been
" nursing her wrath to keep it warm," looked the. worthy
misrepresentative of West Derby. " I rise, Mr. Mayor,"—
and his voice rose, and his colour rose, and our own hair
rose upon our head, as Mr. John Smith's excited eyes shot
round a withering glance, and " notu trerefecit Olympum."
" I rise, Mr. Mayor, with great ploure to second the
amendment made by Mr. Turner;.'--4tar. in doing so I will
avail myself of the opportunity tiolqi'xilyself right in the
eyes of the council and the publfielttlarge. with respect to
the proposition which I broughtforward on the school ques-
tion on the 2nd of last month.''t 34ivoluntarily a vision rose
up before our eyes, in which 'most prominent figures
were a circle of female dabblers in soap-suds, scrubbing at
at the ebony skin of a blackamoor ; and we pitied Mr. John
Smith for the mortification which must be the result of his
hopeless labour. " Not all the water of the sea will wao,

clean this little hand," we remembered, was the lament of
Lady Macbeth ; and even a sea of soup-suds, we were con-
fident, would not purge the blackamoor taint from the name
of the councillor for West Derby. We were not permitted,
however, to continue in our dreamy state ; for anon the voice
of John burst louder and louder upon our ears,
" And, volleying like the bolts of heaven,
Pealed forth the dread artillery"
of his denunciation, right and left, against all who had been
busy with his immaculate name and his unsullied consistency.
" I hold in my hand, Mr. Mayor," pursued the indignant
orator," a document which will put down all my traducers,
and prove incontestibly that I, John Smith, am the only con-
sistent man in the council—a pattern—a paragon—worthy
the approbation of all the universe ;" and then he took a
paper and shook it, but nothing came out ; and then he
walked up to the window, and read—that five years ago he had
seconded a proposition, which he asserted was precisely the
same as that made in his immortal resolution at the last
council meeting—(but which he proved to be as unlike it as
a pole cat to a polar bear)—and that all the conservative mem-
bers who were in the room at the time (and there were only
six in the council) had voted with him. And then Mr. John
Smith looked very indignant—" tore" many " passions to
tatters"—" shook the ears"—and the sides too—" of the
groundlings"—and finally sate down like a spent rocket, and
looked round, as much as to say, " there's for you!' Oh
most inimitable John ! " That boy'll be the death ofutsh.:n
The fury of the small Smith having subsided,
as
of gs
frothy and vapid will ever do, the great alderman
Aher-
cromby (great in soul we mean) got up to whip his amiable
temper into syllabubs, for the amusement of the connmtln
commencing, he took the opportunity of administering a little
" soft sawder" and butter to Mr. Alderman Turner, and
wished that every conservative in the council were just such
a conservative—so gentlemanly, so conciliatory, possessed of
the saws " moral courage"—as that geIItICMIU. Having

done the amiable, the worthy alderman " went to work" in
his peculiar style—talked of the. severe castigation adminis-
tered front the pulpit by " a haughty divine, a soi-disant fol-
lower of the apostles," and expressed his opinion that " the
gentleman who was reported to have run into the lion's mouth
on the occasion, exhibited more courage than wisdom."
When called to order for the irrelevance of his remarks, and
the personality in which he was indulging, the alderman
bounced forth from his state of comparative serenity into his
ordinary rabid vein ; snapped in canine fashion at every thing
and every body, and inflated his chest and elevated his voice
in denouncing some proceeding which he mentioned as " a
piece of humbug."

Again the honourable gentleman was called to order, upon
which he flew voraciously upon an imaginary " wooden
bible," for the substance of which he appeared to possess
some peculiar affinity, but was repulsed with some damage,
we fear, to his teeth ; rambled to a discourse upon grammar
spelling and pronounciation, "run amuck" at parsons in
general, Irish parsons in particular, and the Rev. Hugh
M'Neile in especial, upon whom he poured a volley of most
approved billingsgate. Once more his slanderous career was
attempted to be stayed, by a request from Mr. Parker that
he would confine himself to the expression of his own opi-
nions instead of inventing opinions for Mr. M'Neile ; but as
well might the worthy councillor have attempted to stop up a
sewer with a cambric pocket hankerchief as try to close the
orifice through which a torrent of blackguardism (we are
compelled to use the word) was bubbling, hissing hot from
its malevolent source, by any reference to the demands of de-
cency and manliness. " I have met Mr. M`Neile," shrieked
the frenzied alderman, " and compelled him to retire like a
coward from the contest " ; and the punch of the council
shook his arms, twisted his small person, and grinned with
such a hideous glee, that we almost expected to have seen
him pull out of his coat pocket the identical squirt with which
he had performed this prodigious and boasted feat.
Mr. J. B. Moore stepped up to the table in the middle of
this disgraceful exhibition of the alderman's infirmity, and
remarked, somewhat sternly, that had the object of Mr.
Earle's slanderous vituperation " worn a blue coat instead
of a black one, he durst not"—(and the spirit of the rabid
alderman cowered beneath the rebuke conveyed by the tone
and manner of Mr. Moore, as well as by his words)—" he
durst not have made the remark which had just escaped his
lips ;" and although the rebuked orator still swaggered, and
mouthed and spit, like a hunted cat driven into a corner by
the growl of some noble animal, whose patience he had goaded
into anger,, the tempest of his exhibition was subdued, and
he was content to snarl, and grin, and mouthe in a more tem-
perate vein to the end of the chapter. As a whole, the ex-
hibition of the alderman at this meeting ought to suggest
serious thoughts to his friends, as to the propriety of his be-
ing at large. We should most assuredly not like to approach
too near him in the dog days. By the bye, will he inform
us the name of the divine who " preaches to the senses and
not to the passions ?"

Upon the principle that extremes meet, the lively exhibi-
tion of Mr.. Earle, was succeeded by the leaden one of Mr.
Robinson, of Great George's. how such a gentleman as
this, so utterly incapable of understanding the subject upon
which he offered himself as a new light, ever found his way
into the council, does really surprise us. But we will not
waste words upon such a specimen of stolid absurdity. We
leave him, with the redoubtable John Smith. to the care of
his constituents.

Sure, such a pair were never seen

So justly formed "
to be drisen tandem in Mr. Alderman Earle's drag,—if that
gentleman could only keep them from turning too sharp
round the corners.

We have not space to remark upon the satisfactory speech
—we say satisfactGry, because it must have been satisfactory
to him to have the opportunity of explanation, which it afforded
Aelivered by Mr. Bushell ; or do more than express our
rker who followed him, for the manliness

o Mr. Pi

is brie

We st:

a word

upon the sentiments expressed by Mr. George Hall Laurence,
or the vote by which they were followed, much as we depre-
cate and regret both. We are satisfied that his reverend
relative, from whose letters he quoted, and by whose advice
he had endeavoured to profit, would not have arrived at the
conclusion to which the worthy councillor himself arrived ;
but, being driven to the necessity of providing a system of
education for the children of his humble fellow townsmen,
would have felt himself compelled to base that system upon
the religion of the Bible alone.

The brief speech of Mr. Moore, though delivered at a late
period of the debate, was listened to with attention, and de-
served being so listened to. Mr. Moore must not, in future,
allow his abilities to be cast into the shade. He possesses
every qualification for taking a very high place in the Coun-
cil,. and we trust before long to see him occupying it.
But Mr. Yates—surely that gentleman was never de-
signed for so mundane an occupation as that of a local legis-
lator. With a little more of the conventicle snuffle, he might
occupy and adorn the pulpit of any chapel of which the con-
gregation were admirers of Socinianism, tricked out with a
plentiful adornment of blue flames and brimstone.
Mr. Bolton too—but our readers know him and his capa-
city. We would as soon attempt to sketch the, gable end of
a house, or the uninteresting features of a factory chimney,
as describe a speech of his. At its conclusion the Council
became impatient for the vote, upon which Mr. James Aikin
O'Comtelli:ed a little, and threatened to move adjournments
until midnight, or the middle of next week ; but contented
himself with making a speech, which was not so good as his
memorial. Several members subsequently addressed the
Council on both sides ; but our sketch has become so lengthy
that we must conclude, and in doing so express our satisfac-
tion with the result, which, although by only 8 votes, is still
a satisfactory and even a glorious one for the good cause of
conservatism in the " good old town."

EDUCATION.—We beg to draw attention to Mr. Middle-
ton's advertisement inserted elsewhere. His abilities as a
teacher, we understand, are undoubted.

DANCING.-Mr. Harwood, we perceive, announces une
soiree dansante to take place on Wednesday week. These
way parties are generally well and fashionably attended.

PANORAMA.—A panorama is now exhibiting in Bold-
street. We have not had time to inspect it, but shall do so
in our next. Report speaks highly of it. Numbers of
persons are daily visiting it.

THE LIVERPOOL CHESS GLOB.—We perceive the mem-
bers of this club dine together at the Clayton Arms on
Saturday, the 15th instant. We are glad to hear that the club
is prospering and adding daily to its numbers.
The last number of the Gazette contains notices of the
dissolution of nine Liverpool firms, some of them of very
long standing.

CHESTER. RACES.—The entry for the tradesmen's cup has
closed within the last few days, there not being less than 64
horses named. The weights will be published on the 14th
instant, and acceptances are to be declared on or before ti e
Ist of February. ' The weights for the free handicap have ap-
peared ; there are 241 horses handicapped, and the accept-
ances for this race are also to be made by the Ist February.

`WIGAN INSTITUTION• FOR THE DIFFUSION OF KNOW-
LEDGE.—The annual tea-party of the members and friends
of this institution was held in the large room at the Com-
mercial-hall, on Monday evening. After tea Mr. Venables,
of Liverpool, delivered a lecture on the ancient minstrelsy
and national music of England. The lectures were illustrated
by the vocal performance of Miss Venables, who sang the
grand Italian polacca, " Son Vergin," and several ancient
English national airs, in which she was repeatedly applauded
by a numerous and highly-respectable audience. In the
course of the evening the members of the instumental music
class belonging to the institution played a variety of airs.
Mr. J. C. Prince, a native of Wigan, and author of " Hours
with the Muses," and other pieces, was to have given several
appropriate recitations of his own composition, but was un-
able to attend from indisposition.

In the course of yesterday morning, the teller of one of
the principal banks in this city was apprehended in his bed
on a very grave charge of theft and embezzlement. The
amount which is deficient, and chargeable against him we
have heard variously estimated at from £5OOO to £12,000.
The investigation proceeded during the whole of yesterday,
up till a late hour in the evening, and all that is known with
certainty is, that it is one of the most serious cases of bank
robbery which has occurred for a lengthened period of time.
—Glasgow Mail Wednesday.
LORD MELBOURNE.—This nobleman, who visited the
castle for the first time since his " retirement" from the pre-
miership, on Saturday last, left on Tuesday afternoon just
before the arrival of Sir Robert Peel. The ex-Premier,
during his short visit, only once left the castle, and that was
on Monday, when he proceeded to Norfolk Farm to have an
hour or two's shooting with His Royal Highness Prince
Albert, Colonel Bouverie, and Mr. G. E. Anson. His lord-
ship, as he passed through the Long Walk, looked as good-
humoured as ever, but not exactly in his usual spirits.

LIBERALITY OF THE QUEEN.—Her majesty has just
caused to be presented 41bs of beef, llb of plum-pudding,
2 gallons of potatoes, 21bs of bread, and a quart of ale, to
each adult in 100 poor and deserving families of Windsor;
and also to each family a sack of coals. To each of the chil-
dren comprised in each family a moiety of the like pro-
visions and ale has also been presented. Gifts of precisely
the same description, to the same number of families, were
likewise caused to be given by his Royal Highness Prince
Albert, upon the eve of the new year.

Lord Ashburton is expected to arrive at Bath House, Pic-
cadilly, on Monday next, from his seat, the Grange, Hants,
to make his final arrangements for departing on his impor-
tant special mission to the Government of the United States.
His lordship, we understand, will embark at Portsmouth, on
board a government steam frigate, for New York, about
Monday, the 2-ith instant, and that he will be attended by
a limited suite, as his lordship's stay at Washington, where
the personnel of our embassy already consists of Mr. Fox,
cousin to Lord Holland, and Mr. James Hudson, ei-levant
gentleman usher to the Q •een Dowager, is expected to be
brief. The noble lord's lady, before her marriage, was a
Miss Bingham, of Philadelphia, and his lordship was at one
time proprietor of immense tracts of land in Pennsylvania.
Lady Ashburton and the Hon. Misses Baring do not accom-
pany the noble envoy to America.

Miss A. Kemble's present salary at Covent-garden Theatre
is 100 guineas per week—a larger sum than there was ever
yet statedly paid to any vocalist. Singers have been paid
more per night, but never so much per week. Reckoning
the expenses of Covent-garden, when Miss A. Kemble plaY,,z
at £2lO per night, which is beyond the amount, from Xl5"
to £l9O profit per night will remain for the lessee. TIIE EXPLOSION ON THE BRISTOL AND GLo"E
sTER
R tendered
in Friday, after hearing the evidence
-
in this case, the jury returned a verdict of •'Accdental
liousiv
death," with the following rider :—And thejury '
express their great regret that in this case they 1:::it n.
deodand,
not in
n
their power to mark their sense of the grossly Inirropel
ma-
nagement of this line of railway, by levying a
which they would have levied to the utmost extent had any..
thing been left to levy it upon.
ur
THE IEXCHEQUE.II BILLS.—The Ofornin Herald, of
.g
.- .
Wednesday,dly, makes the ameudelron
honorable With retence to
'o
urnal, and copied into
ting implicated in the

our columns, as to severs

exchequer bills fraud, and says,

:-ihere is no truth whatever

in
the allegation."
TESTIMONIAL TO MR. OASTLEn.--; A fund is now rais-
ing for the purpose of placing /Or. tinder, his wife, and
their adopted daughter in comfortable circumstances. The
money is to be vested in the bands of trustees (among whom
rnt.r.,—On Monday thea
are Lord Fevershatu and Sir G. Sinclair), who are
at an election, ppeal of Sir
re to decide
on the best method of fulfilling the object.
particulars of the ca
REFUSAL TO PAY
E. Knatchbull against a late conviction for
ihtnoelatirhwiinshgi::sitit:C:aainhatiestrtbhe time. The conviction w refusing to pay
to vote
it is currently reported, has resolved scuaict. The came on for
esoentappearedirtmo
ed
es-
tablish a line of szteani 'communicatio
of South America and New Z übetween the Pacific
coast
Government,
Zealand a
colonies. The authorities of Panama and the Australian
vited an English engineer to suest a line of railroad across
, we may add, have in-
rvey
the Isthmus, and are most desirous
executed by an Englishrous that the line should be
pared to grant exclusive company, to which they are pre-
Some days ago a Woodman, named Michel, while employed
was assailed by 3'. nar Courbons, in the Haute So
a. wolfne,
would have
killed hi
, which tore him in several places,
and
Huot, come to his him bad not another woodman, named
with Some relief, and sacred the animal away. Hav-
ing,his companions w other men, placed Michel in bafety, Huot and
him, Having
__ went to hunt up the wolf, resolved to destroy
Jollivet,
one
of
fdtiscovered him, a terrible conflict ensued ;
the arm and le
men,
was severely wounded and bitten in
body. The beast was diverted from him by the
assaults of the wife
of
one
of
til other men, and in his rage sprang upon the
anda wasn tearing her with teeth and claws,
when the husband,e,
of unusual strength,
creature by the ears, turnedina it
on its back, and
there held it
until his companions killed it with their hatchets.