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Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-12-09 00:00:00

that certain principles would be submitted by the Education
_Co.namittee ; he, therefore, thought that the motion of Hr.
Lawrence would be regular, but still it was for the
council to decide.
Mr. TURNER said, that having had the honour upon a
former occasion to submit a proposition similar to this, he
had now great pleasure in lending his feeble efforts to Mr.
(if H. Lawrence, towards accomplishing the object he had in
view. Although he was not sanguine of success on this oc-
casion, he was so assured of the justice and the equity of the
cause that he was confident,even if they failed for a time, they
would succeed eventually. The age was too enlightened to
tolerate the spirit of exclusion. The last remnant of the
bigotry which had ruled in this town so long was almost ex-
banished ; and he hoped the day was not far distant when
a better state of things would prevail—when we should have
the happiness of seeing good will and Christian charity about
!is, and when all should be engaged in that labour of
face, doing unto others as we would have others do
Unto us. In his humble opinion, the Education Com-
mittee were inconsistent. He did not think they
went far enough, if their views were to be carried
Out, because they allowed children to go into the schools and
learn religion six days in the week, whilst upon the Sunday,
the most important day of all, they were allowed to go
Wherever they pleased—to church or chapel, to conventicle
or synagogue, just to learn whatever was placed before them.
Now, if the schools were to be conducted according to the
principles of the Church of England alone, it was the duty
of the committee to' make all the children go to church on
the Sunday. As an abstract principle, he would admit that
education without religion was an evil ; but was it not an evil
to deprive the poor children of those parents who professed
different religious opinions to ourselves, and who had an
equal claim with ourselves to a fair share of the advantages
the Corporation Schools were enabled to give, of the blessings
of education ? Was not that an evil? Was it not also an
evil that those poor children should be left to run and riot
about the streets in ignorance and idleness, liable to the con-
tagion of evil example, and all those vices which, if not
checked in youth, would at maturity cause them to forfeit
their liberty, if not their lives ? Was not that an evil ? It
was, and the council bad the remedy in its own hands. Why
was the great falling off which had taken place in the attend-
ance at the schools ? It appeared from the returns made this
morning, that comparing the present attendance with that of
the vorresponding period last year, there had been a falling
tiff of no less than 297 children. With all these facts before
it certainly did appear to him an act of injustice, if not
of cruelty, to leave the benches of the schools empty when
they might be filled. Again, as Mr. Lawrence had stated.
schools had been emptied at the south end of the town, and
there had also been a falling off in the subscriptions to other
schools which were flourishing before, in consequence of the
system now established. Surely, this was to be lamented.
Surely, it was to be lamented that the Church of England
schools should be emptied to fill the Corporation Schools,
which were vacant because the committee would not receive
the poor Roman Catholic children. This he did not call
Christian charity; but he was sure that the longer this
question was agitated, the more progress it would gain—that
although it might be in a minority now, it would succeed
eventually. Let them not be faint-hearted or he weary in
well-doing. He would, in conclusion, say to all his friends,
Persevere : magna est vPritas et prcevalebit." He seconded
the motion of Mr. G. H. Lawrence.
Mr. Nicol had heard with interest, as he always did, the
observations which had fallen from Mr. G. H. Lawrence,
although he might not be able to arrive at the same conclu-
sions. Mr. Lawrence had spoken a great deal concerning
the difficulties of the school question, the municipal and other
difficulties which attended it ; and he confessed that, after
having heard him say that there was a great doubt whether
the borough fund was equal to the continued support of the
schools; after having heard from Mr. Turner that there was
a considerable falling off in the attendance ; when he heard
from Mr. Lawrence, as he had with satisfaction, that the
Council could never be considered as an educational body;
that the view of the legislature in passing the Municipal Act
Must have been that they should not be an education body ;
after hearing all this, and many other circumstances connected
with the question, he must say that he had arrived at a con-
clusion very different from that to which Mr. Lawrence and
Mr. Turner had arrived. It appeared to him that instead of
their motion getting rid of an unpleasant question, they were
involving it in fresh difficulty, and the conclusion to which
he had come, arising, too, out of their own arguments, was,
that the sooner the schools were closed the better. Referring
back to the Education Committee to consider such a propo-
sition as had emanated from Mr. Lawrence was blinking the
question altogether; it was only referring that to them to
which it was known beforehand they would not consent. All
the arguments he he'd heard not only to-day, but during the
Whole of last year, and particularly the statement made by
Mr. Turner that the attendances were falling off instead of
increasing, bad brought him to the conclusion, which he
would have moved as a second ans.mdment if it was in order,
that the schools should be closed is itogether ; but as he ap-
prehended that would be an irregularity, he reserved that
tight after having given notice. He therefore begged to in-
timate that at the next Council it was his intention to
Move that the schools be closed at the end of the current
quarter. He had nevar bound himself to any opinion upon
the subject of education, but as he did not think Mr. Law-
rence's motion calculated to do any good be should vote
against it.
, Mr. H ARBORD, as a member of the Education Committee,
°egged to say that Mr. Turner was in error when he stated
that the attendance in the schools had fallen cif. The fact
Was, that since the management of them had come into the
Present hands, the attendance bad every week been upon the
increase ; and it had never decreased even for one week.
Mr. TURNER explained that he alluded to the average at-
tendances.
Mr. HARBORD, in continuation, repeated that the attend-
ances were upon the increase. Everybody knew that in the
first excitement of the change made in the principles of the
council, the whole of the Roman Catholic children were
driven from the schools by their priests. The committee,
of course, could not help that ' • but the fact was still capable
of proof, that since they had had the entire controul of the
schools they had been upon the increase. He would here
eotion that the Roman Catholic children were increasing
in numbers; and it was only within the last few days that
Roman Catholic children had been brought from a Roman
Catholic school, by Roman Catholic parents, into the corpo-
ration schools.
Mr. EARLE.—HOW many?
Mr. HARBORD could not say how many at that moment,
but he had the names of the parents. (Cry of " Name.")
He should decline mentioning the names for obvious rea-
sons. Mr. Harbord then entered into an explanation of the
history of St.. Michael's School being given up. in which he
established, in answer to Mr. G. H. Lawrence, that it ceased
operations not because the conservatives had just then ad-
vanced into power, and wished to fill the Corporation Schools
with Church of England children, but because the schools
were not supported. He regretted that such statements
should be made, as they had a tendency to mislead the coun-
cil, and as had been just heard, they had had considerable
effect upon the mind of Mr. Nicol. He complained, also,
of statements having been made, particularly with regard to
the attendances at the schools, which bad no direct bearing
upon the question before them.
Mr. TURNER said he hail copied the numbers from the
books not two minutes before he made the statement.
Mr. HARBORD, resuming, said that Mr. Turner had very
ingeniously taken the numbers at a time when the reform
Party were in full power, and compared them with the num-
bers under the present rule when the conservatives had been
in office only ten months. That was not placing the compa-
rison in a proper position before the council. How was it
Possible, with all the opposition they had met with, that the
conservative party should in ten months have arrived at the
Maximum number of the reform party when they were in full
power? He repeated, however, that since they had come
into power, the numbers, instead of decreasing, had increased.
The Roman Catholic children had been increasing every week
in numbers, a fact which he stated on the authority of the
books. Gentlemen who wished well to the cause would
Pause before they undertook the great responsibility, which
they had, of spreading true Christian principle, not from the
fear of man or to please man ; and that, he believed, was the
Principle which the Education Committee acted upon. He
was reminded by a friend, to whom he was speaking the other
day on this subject, of the motto of the corporation upon their
chairs, which he translated thus for him, as he did not pro-
fess to be a Latin scholar :—" Our duty God has made in
easy forms." Now God had made the duty of' the council
easy on this question. Let the council, therefore, do that
duty without having the fear of man before them.
Mr. EARLE.—What a classical man! (Call of " Order"
from the Mayor.)
Mr. PRIESTLEY contended that the Roman catholic chil-
dren had left the schools in consequence of the change which
Was made in the system by the party now in power; and it
Was unfair to snake it appear that the Roman catholics had
increased since, when the fact was it was only the children
of other denominations.
Mr. HORNBY was reluctant to trespass upon the patience
of the council, conscious as he was that the subject was not
a favourite one with many members ; but lie felt extremely
desirous to express his approbation of and to give his sup-
Port to the amendment which had been moved by Mr. Law-
rence, because it did, as he believed, an act of justice to
those poor children who were formerly educated in the
schools, and who were now excluded from them. He sup-
Ported it also because it afforded a hope of making some
arrangement which would be the effect of putting an end to
those virulent dissensions which had so long distracted the
Public mind upon this question. He hoped, therefore, the
council would grant him their attention for a few moments,
and he assured them he would avoid every topic likely to excite
Party feeling, without giving personal offence to one single in-
dividual. There were several gentlemen in that room who ap-
peared to 'doubt whether Roman catholic children had been
excluded from the Corporation Schools; and he thought it was
Mr. Hodgson who distinctly declared at the last meeting that
it was not true they were excluded. He was sure Mr.
Hodgson did not wish the council to adopt any opinions
Which lie did not himself hold in all sincerity ; but he was
surprised that a person of his acuteness upon all ordinary
subjects should entertain so strange an opinion. They,
with whom he (Mr. Hornby) acted, had never asserted that
the Roman Catholic children had been forcibly ejected from
the schools, or that the Education Committee had made a
specific regulation to close the doors of the schools to chil-
dren of that persuasion ' • but they did say that the Education
Committee had attached conditions to their admission which
rendered it morally impossible for any honest Roman Catho-
lic parent to'send his children there. He believed that no
one ever denied that Dissenters were excluded from muni-
cipal offices before the repeal of the test and corporation act,
or that Roman Catholics were excluded from either house of
Parliament before the passing of the Roman Catholic relief
bill • now the exclusion in these cases rested upon precisely
similar grounds to that by which the council excluded those
children from the Corporation Schools—for they were re-
quired to take tests which they could not take, and the
Catholic child here was required to perform acts at variance
With the religion it professed, and, as it was taught to believe,
at variance with the religion of his God. What would be
their own feelings if they, as members of the council, were
Placed in the situation of the Roman Catholics of this town?
Let him imagine that the council, instead of being composed
of Protestants, was composed of Roman Catholics ; that such
a council was to establish schools and invite the children of
Christians of all denominations to attend those schools, re-
quiring that they should all read the Douay version of the
scriptures, be under the guidance of Roman Catholic teach-
ers, and join in every act and form of the Roman Catholic
church ? Would not every Protestant in the town join in ex-
claiming against the injustice, as well as the illegality of such
a system ? Would not every one denounce such a profession
of teaching Christiaas of all denominations as a mockery ?
Would they not all unite and call upon all the Protestant
Clergy of the town to use all their influence to deter Pro-
testant parents from allowing their children to join such
schools? if so, with what justice could we blame the Ro-
ll-An Catholic priests for a similar interference? He under-
Stood that the conduct of the Roman Catholics in keeping
from the schools had been spoken of in that council as highly
anproper and reprehensible. Now, no one could be more
opposed to the tenets of the Roman Catholic faith than he
was ; but he had no hesitation in saying, that if the clergy of
that church had not exhorted their people, and used their in-
fluence in the way they had, supposing they believed their
"la doctrines, they would have been guilty of a gross dere-
liction of duty. He was desirous that the council should
Well consider the nature of the objection of those who said
that Roman Catholic children should not be admitted to the
benefits of secular education. It would be recollected that
'under the former Education Committee, one hour each
taY had been set apart for the religious instruction of
rotestants and Catholics who were separated for the
Purpose. The objection made to that was that the
council was sanctioning the teaching of erroneous doc-
trines,' of doctrines which they knew and acknowledged
t 0 be erroneous; but the proposal of Mr. Lawrence was to
t:dasit Roman' Catholic children to receive secular instruc-
"°n only, and the objection to this proposition was, that se-

cular education, if unaccompanied by sound religions in-
struction, (and sound religious instruction meant instruction
in protestant doctrines, in the doctrines of the Church of
England,) was worse than no education at all. The conclu-
sion from these two objections, if both were valid, was, that
education provided from the public funds must be confined
to the children of Protestants, and to such Roman catholics
as were willing to allow their children to be brought up in
a faith which they themselves denied. Now this was a
system entirely at variance with all his notions of justice ; it
was not merely characterised by injustice but by tyranny—
tyranny the most hateful, because it inflicted upon one por-
tion of our fellow-countrymen a creed in which they did not
believe. In conclusion he must protest against the system
now adopted by the Education Committee. He desired
ardently to see all persons of the same religion as himself,
but he would use no other mode to gain that end than fair
argument.
Mr. HENRY LAWRENCE had very little to say, because,
what he had intended to have submitted had been anticipated.
He should conscientiously support the amendment. He
thought the Education Commit tee ought not to run into the
fault which had been committed by their predecessors in their
exclusion of—for of course a nominal exclusion was a virtual
exclusion in such a case—the children of the Church of Eng-
land ; and if they adopted a similar course with regard to the
Roman Catholics, they would be equally blameable. lie was
afraid the amendment was not very likely to be successful,
because, he had found in many instances it had not met with
the support he anticipated. There was, however, a difference
of opinion • and he should not be doing his duty to him-
self, or to his character, if he did not state his conscientious
opinions upon this subject. He did not believe that out of
doors the opinions he advocated was so little extended, as it
seemed to have been insinuated in that room. He had dis-
cussed the question on many occasions, amongst"others, with
clergymen of the highest standing and respectability ; he did
not whether there had been any alteration in their opinions.
but he knew that the very course now advocated here, had
been suggested by a most able man who, at one time, said
they would be content with it. He did not intend to give
offence to those he represented. He had been one of the first
conservatives returned to the council ; and his sentiments
were always known, namely, that he was a conservative, with
a certain degree of liberality in his views. In conclusion, he
felt bound to support the amendment, and he should do so
with satisfaction to his own conscience, though he had very
little hopes of success.
Mr. PARKER regretted the pro. and con. speech which the
chairman of the Finance Committee (Mr. G. H. Lawrence)
had just made • but at the same time he gave him credit for
following the honest convictions of his mind. He bad put
a *question, namely, supposing the legislature had had to fix
a system of education to be carried out by municipal bodies,
what system would it hhve been ? Now, he (Mr. Parker)
would ask another question, which arose out of that, nnmely,
upon what principle was the municipal act based ? It was
based upon those principles which that council as conserva-
tives and Protestants revered, and which, he trusted, they
would ever combine to support. His answer, then, to the
question proposed by the chairman of the Finance Committee
was, that no doubt any system of education to be carried out
by municipal bodies would have been based upon the same
principles. He would prefer to see professing conservative
and Protestant gentlemen, instead of seeking to put a lever
whereby to overturn the existing system, at once come out
and boldly propose a grant of money exclusively for the
support of a school in which to teach Roman Catholic chil-
dren. That would be a manly course for them to pursue ;
but what would the Town-clerk say to such a proposition ?
Why, he would tell them that, according to the municipal
act, they had not the power to make any such grant. A
beautiful picture had been drawn, with a great degree of
talent, by Mr. Hornby, to show that the council would be
wrong in refusing to assent to the amendment; but he had
not told them what had been the proceedings of the Educa-
tion Committee during the glorious reign of reform. Why,
they had effectually excluded the Church of England chil-
dren ; and now they should take into consideration the
opinions of the vast community the council were elected
to represent. Now, lie hesitated not to say, that of the
thirteen wards which bad returned conservative members
at the late election, they had returned those members upon
the principle on which education in the corporation schools
was carried on. He hoped, therefore, that this fact would
be kept in view when the question was carried to a division.
It was all very well to express new ideas, and to put forth
new views upon the subject, but there could be no compro-
mise of principle in such a matter. The Education Com-
mittee were either right or wrong. It was true expediency
might do much in the way of modification ; but might they
not be 'called upon to make too great sacrifices, and too
great compromises for the sake of expediency? Expediency,
he had no hesitation in saying, was a word which had caused
to this country evils which be scarcely dared to mention.
There was a time before the principle of expediency was re-
sorted to, when Roman Catholics and political dissenters
were kept in check; but now, since its introduction the
council had absolutely been told that the Church of England
herself was a sectarian church. The late member for Castle-
street ward had ventured to make this assertion; and lie
would ask the council whether that had not been caused by

the giving way to expediency ? He (Mr. Parker) was much
pleased to hear the compliments paid to the old corporation
by the chairman of the Finance Committee, because he was
satisfied that it had been richly merited by them. In the
words of the late lamented Mr. Foster, if all the corpora-
tions of England had been like that of Liverpool, there
would have been no occasion for municipal reform ; and that
sentiment, he was convinced, was the pervading feeling of the
town. He was also satisfied that it was intended, through
the municipal acts, to aim a deeper blow at the church, and
at our Protestant institutions than it had yet been able to in-
flict ; but he contended that the municipal act was founded
upon Protestant principle, and it must be carried out ac-
cording to the principles on which it was based.
Mr. EARLE was proud to acknowledge Mr. Hornby as a
leader; and he thought, that after the able manner in which
he had addressed the council, and the sound sense which he
had spoken, every man in the council would be glad to
acknowledge him as a leader. Only put what Mr. Hornby
had said in contrast with what they bad just beard from Mr.
Parker ! He wished the gentlemen on the other side joy of
their leader, Mr. Parker, who had asked a great number of
questions ; and the bulk of his speech consisted in answers
to himself. The Roman Catholics, however, were not to be
gulled. He congratulated the council upon the fact that
many of the conservatives coincided with the views which
had been expressed by Mr. Hornby.
Mr. ASPINALL said, it was now half-past three o'clock ;
and as there was no chance of the debate being concluded
to-day, he would move an adjournment. (Cries of " No,
no," and " Yes, yes.")
The MAYOR said that was a question which rested entirely
with the council. (Cries of "Go on.")
Mr. PLATT said, he had always voted in the spirit of the
amendment, on the ground of common justice. He now
wished to ask the Town-clerk whether the funds of this cor-
poration could be applied to the general use of the inhabi-
tants ? He meant the funds, not the other property.
The TOWN-CLERK said, the question put to him was
rather too general—whether the funds of the corporation
could be applied to the general use of the inhabitants.
Mr. PLATT said, his question was, whether the funds of
the corporation were to be exclusively applied to the educa-
tion of one denomination of Christians ?
The TOWN-CLERK could have no hesitation in giving this
opinion, that the funds of the corporation might be applied
for the purposes of education according to the religion of the
Church of England ; and he had no hesitation in saying that
the funds could not be applied to education if it was to be
accompanied with religious instruction according to the
Roman Catholic faith and doctrine. He founded his opinion
upon the opinions of Mr. Bacon and Mr. Tinne. The case
put to them certainly applied to the appropriation of land,
but the principle was precisely the same.
Mr. G. LAWRENCE.—You allude to surplus income?
The TOWN-CLERK.—Decidedly to surplus income ; for
that which is obligatory upon you, you are not at liberty so
to apply.
Mr. PLATT would ask the Town-clerk whether it was
legal to apply to Roman Catholics and dissenters for funds
which went into the borough fund? If it was legal to call
upon them for funds which went into the borough fund, it
was surely legal for them to be expended upon them.
The MAYOR.—You mean to say that because Roman
Catholics contribute to the municipal fund, therefore they
ought to participate in its application ?
Mr. PLATT.—Yes.
The TowN-CLERK must guard himself against giving any
opinion upon the question before the council ; but he should
say it clearly appeared from the advice he had received, that
the exercise of a trust, out of the surplus income of the cor-
poration, in favour of Roman Catholic institutions, conducted
according to the practice and doctrines of the Church of
Rome, would be an illegal exercise upon the part of the
council, however the money might arise.
Mr. PLATT said the answer of the Town-Clerk would not
alter the conditions upon which he was going to speak ; for
he had always understood that the contributions to the bo-
rough fund were not only paid by Protestants but by Roman
Catholics and dissenters of every denomination. That being
the case, he conceived it an act of common justice, leaving
religion out of the question, that the children of the poor, of
all religious denominations, should have a right to receive
their protection, their support, and also their instruction.
He left religion out of the question, much as he admired the
Church of England and her precepts. This being so, he
contended that the council ought to give to those children
secular education, without saving one word about religion.
Mr. BUSHELL suggested the propriety of an adjournment,
but the cries of " Go on" prevented the motion being made.
Mr. SANDS said that he should not at that late hour go
into the general question, otherwise he might advert to the
great sympathy which gentlemen on the other side now pro-
fessed for one portion of the children of the poor, and to
their total disregard of another portion—the Protestant poor.
Did they not, when they were in power, as effectually turn
out of the schools the Protestant children, as they alletiged
we have turned out the Roman Catholics? He must say that,
in his opinion, the statements just made by his friend Mr.
Lawrence and by Mr. Turner ought to cause them to suspect
the propriety of their own proposition—he meant their state-
ments with respect to those children who were not required
to go to church on the Sabbath. The gentlemen complained
that those children were left destitute, as it were, on that
day. Now the Education Committee took an assurance from
the parents of those children, that they should be taken to
some place of worship upon the Sunday.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE.—Do I understand that when a
Roman Catholic parent comes, we take an assurance from
him that he will take his child to his own place of worship
upon the Sunday ?
Mr. SANDS.—Yes; to his own place of worship.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.-1 was not aware of it.
Mr. HARBORD said, the course was this. As to the chil-
dren of Protestants, the committee made it a sine qua non
that they should go to the school on thelSundays, and then to
church. The schools were regularly opened on Sundays,
which was a fact that Mr. Lawrence had omitted to state,
and the children went regularly from them to church. If
they were the children of Dissenters, the same rule was en-
joined.
Mr. SANDS, in continuation, said that if these assurances
which were taken, either directly or by implication, that
parents would send their children to some place of worship
upon the Sabbath so completely failed, what was the assur-
ance worth which Mr. Lawrence would give that those chil-
dren who were admitted to receive secular education only
should receive religious instruction somewhere upon the
Sabbath? If the assurance in one case went for nothing,
what was it likely to be worth in another case? Mr. Law-
rence regretted that the corporation was educational; but
such being the case he could not help it, and they must deal
with things as they found them. He also argued as if the School
Committee required dissenters and Romanists to be taught
the tenets of the Church of England. Now the fact was not
SO : children of the Church of England only were required
to learn the catechism, but all were taught the Bible. From
such an education as that none were excluded. The Bible
was not now excluded—nor any children excluded ;—the
committee admitted the children of all denominations, and
taught them the truths contained in God's Holy Word.
Mr. Butxurr begged to ask the council this question ?
If they were to have schools, upon what principle were they
to be conducted? When he first saw the notice which Mr.
Blackburn had put upon the paper, he must confess he felt
shocked, that a man who had on many former occasions said
so much on religious education should have put such a mo-
tion upon the paper. They might call him (Mr. Birkett)
intolerant or bigot, or what they pleased, but he would
never consent to any such motion ; he would rather move
that it be erased from the books. What, were they in
Christian land, to be called upon to educate the children m
the poor without any religion at all? Did not the proposal jus-
tify the charges that were made against the promoters of the
late system, "that they excluded practically the Bible from
the Schools ;" and now, the graver one, that it would exclude
all means or modes.of religious instruction, altogether ? The
council was asked to allow the schools to be opened for secu-
lar education only. Why the town would be disgraced by

such a system, and it would be high time for people to get
out of it to some happier abode. He felt so strongly upon
this question that he scarcely dared trust himself to speak
upon it ; and he regretted much to differ with any
persons who called themselves conservatives. Indeed,
if these proceedings went on by conservatives, he
did not know whether he should not drop the name. It was
too a matter of regret that he should be compelled to differ
from a gentleman with whom he had been associated, as a
conservative, in Rodney-street Ward. He felt bound to say
that he agreed with Mr. Lawrence so far, that he would be
under no pledge, and that he would act independently ; but,
at the same time, he was satisfied that if it had been sup-
posed he entertained such opinions as were entertained by
some who called themselves conservatives, be never should
have had the honour of being asked to come forward as one
of the representatives of Rodney-street Ward ; and, indeed,
if the burgesses had entertained such sentiments, he would
not have been the man to serve them. He hoped the coun-
cil would, by a large majority, put down this unhappy—
but he did not know what to call it, for he had not words
strong enough to express his abhorrence of such a system.
He hoped the council would confirm the proceedings of the
Education Committee by a large majority.
Mr. HODGSON said he had entered the council with the
intention of supporting the resolution of the Education Com-
mittee by a silent vote, because the subject had already been
so fully discussed with regard to principle. The principle,
too, had been so fully expounded, that all which he should
think it necessary to say, would be one word with regard to
some points on which they were urged to establish a system
of secular education apart from religion. Really, to go into
such a sea of controversy as the whole subject opened, and
which ought to have been settled long ago, was impossible;
and therefore he hardly knew where to begin. He would,
however, commence with expressing his surprise that gen-
tlemen calling themselves conservatives, and who acted upon
those sentiments in all other respects, should be found
starting with some new scheme, when that which was already
in progress was answering the expectations with which it had
been framed, when it was increasing the number of scholars.
when it was establishing a wholesome discipline, which had
been greatly retarded by the agitation that had taken place in
that room to induce the Roman Catholic parents to with-
draw their children from the schools, and by an agitation
among Roman Catholics from one end of the town to the
other. And when the town had expressed so unequivocally'
its approbation of the course now pursued, when the large
majority of the council was decidedly opposed to any
chonge really to light up and resuscitate the agitation
which men had thus desired to put down, what but a
desire to distress their own party could have induced
them to re-open this question? Mr. George Hall Lawrence,
for whcse kind and conscientious feeling he had great respect,
but under whose judgment he would not willingly place him-
self on this question, had told the Council that he had stu-
died this subject; and he had studied itso hard indeed that he
bad become bewildered in consequence of being unable to
distinguish between principle and expediency. He said he
would do in public what he would not do in private. If this
was a matter of expediency; if the Protestant and Popish re-
ligions were mere matters of political difference ; if they were
not, the one in strict conformity to the revealed will of God,
and the other in opposition to it, then he could understand
one gentleman who said " Here are two ways, one takes me
fifteen miles round about, but both arrive at the same point."
But their position was otherwise. One man said " I can
stand upon principle in my private capacity, but in my pub-
lic capacity I can not." Then they had had a long infer-
ential argument as to what municipal regulations entailed
upon the council. There again the gentleman was in a per-
fect fallacy. What did they sit there for but to decide ac-
cording to law, what according to their judgment would be
the best appropriation of their funds ? If they had been acting
contrary to law, point it out, and they would willingly make
the amends honourable; but as far as it appeared to him the
practise was in conformity with the law. He must have
strange notions of how the laws of the country were ad-
ministered, who said, "because I am in a minority I must
have precisely the same advantages and power as you who
have a decided majority, though my minor views are unjust
and unfair, or inexpedient or improper." Every govern-
ment would be upset if that was to be the principle upon
which we were acting. The council were taunted with
having practised a system of exclusion ; but gentlemen who
made the taunt were probably unaware that whatever
might be the practise pursued now, the former body
practised exactly the same. They now said "we are
anxious that there should be no religion in particular, so that
every man may come." We now said, "we do not teach a
religion that man has framed, we are not under mere tem-
poral princes, but we are under the declared will of God,
and we cannot teach any thing but that which he has given
us to teach ; we have swept out from our house, namely,
the schools, the idolatry that was within its walls, and those
who are idolators will not come there." When you (look-
ing at Mr. Earle) were in power—
Mr. EARLE.—Look at the Mayor, and not at me. Your
arguments have no force upon me, and most probably none
upon your friends.
The MAYOR.—Order, order.
Mr. EARLE.-1 beg pardon, Mr. Mayor. He looked at
me.
Mr. HODGSON, in continuation, said he should say some-
thing to Mr. Earle by and bye. Having swept the house,
and cleared it of these things, they, as became true Chris-
tians, professing‘the religion of the Bible, left every man to
come in who would take the Scriptures clear and unadulter-
ated, without note or comment ; they kept out all abomi-
nations from within, without excluding any body; they
would not go into the temple of idols ; they would not bow
down to Juggernaut—neither would they submit to pollu-;
tion ; and if the former heresy was to be again taught in these
schools, they would withdraw the Protestant children from
the contamination of such contact. Now, to say they were
guilty of intolerance or injustice was absurd; he denied the
position in Coto, and threw It back upon those who asserted
it, and said, " it is you who cast the stone ; you do not ap-
prehend the exact similarity of your own case, because you
would make your will your law to constrain us to pursue it ;
you enforced a system that was as objectionable to us as
our's can by possibility be to you; and, mark, with this
great difference—the Roman Catholic population of Liver-
pool is a very poor part of the population, contributing next
to nothing to the public funds, and you want us to apportion
nineteen-twentieths of the whole money to the education of
the Roman Catholics !" True enough the schools became
empty at first; but why ? Because the Roman Catholic
priesthood turned out the children of their persuasion; they
would not adopt the pure word of God, nor come near the
schools. Now he came to the question of secular education
as apart from religious instruction. He dared say they
should be asked, " will you not keep these children from
running about the streets ? Will you not gibe them
some good, because they cannot take all the good? Will
you not keep them from herding in our various streets,
and courts, 'and allies ?" In the first place, he thought
the whole statement a fiction, that they were running
about. He believed they were too much occupied to do
so. The Roman Catholics, too, had built their own
schools, and they would have taken them to themselves,
whether we had them or not, but that might be a matter of
opinion. The question, however, was secular education
apart from the religion of God. He contended that it was a
gross mistake—that there was no foundation for it in Scrip-
ture—that it had no support in history—to suppose that
secular education alone was a benefit. Instead of leaving the
poor and ignorant in the simple lot they possessed, and leav-
ing them to run riot in our alleys, supposing that position
was true, which he denied—it was giving them the power of
unsanctified knowledge ; and, according to their degree of
knowledge, it enlarged their sphere of mischief. Mr. Hodg-
son then quoted passages from Plato, Bacon, Burke, and
Allison, to shew the dangerous tendencies of unsanctified
knowledge; that with the increase of knowledge there came
an enlarged power of committing the most fearful mischiefs.
He was aware that the reformers, as they called themselves,
had taken a great deal of pains to teach little ragged children
Latin and a great variety of things. Now, their parents in
many cases when they went home had not even a potato to
give them; and in ninety-nine out of a hundred of their
cases the need of the stomach must be supplied by the
labour of the hands. There was false sympathy and vanity in
attempting to teach them that which would not only be useless
to them but a positive nuisance, disqualifying them from every
occupation belonging to their position, and raising them to a
station in which they were good for nothing. The great
thing, he contended, was, to improve these poor children in
the knowledge of the Bible, and, next to that, to give them
such an education as would not disturb the course they were
ordained to pursue. He was willing that every man should
rise, but as he who rose would rise from superior talent, and
not from this false sympathy and forced education in unsuit-
able circumstances, it was idle to attempt it, and worse than
idle, for it was wasting the public property, endangering the
public morals, and giving food for Botany Bay and the gal-
lows. He knew perfectly well that the gentlemen who advo-
cated the amendment did so in perfect sincerity, and that the
opposition of the Roman Catholics to the existing system was
given in sincerity likewise : they were desirous of forwarding
the object they had in view, and so were all classes of men.
The attempt, therefore, to conciliate, by mixing up two oppo-
site principles in the way that Mr. Lawrence proposed, was
one of the vainest ideas that could enter into the head of any
man. Further, the existing elements of the British consti-
tution had, by the removal of restrictions upon the Roman
Catholics and other sectarians, necessarily entailed upon
England the continual conflict of opinions for the rea-
sons he had just mentioned. Whilst under the autho-
rity of defined limits each man knew how far •he could
go ; but now the door was open to ambition each man
pursued his own object with different degrees of power; the
conseauence was, that the system was disturbed, and would
be so -long as the present state of things lasted. The stronger
party, which, thank God, were the Protestants, would keep
down the weaker ; and the constant effort of the one and the
other to gain their object, would end, if not timely corrected,
in discontent and the disruption of society. This would
cause fresh enactments, and the effect would be that all those
who sought to gain power by the removal of restrictions
would find they had lost power by it, that they had at last
lessened their privileges instead of gaining any. As to the
suggestion of selling the schools, he would go into that when
the proper time came ; but he begged to say, that when the
time did arrive, be should object to any such proposal. The
great battle field of religious principle was education. " Train
up the child as he should go," and you trained' him to that
which was good ; but, if you did not he would assuredly go
into error. They hail been charged with intolerance. It
was their bounden duty to give a sound Protestant religious
education to the children under their charge ; but how could
they pretend to give sound religious instruction upon a
vital question, when the same children saw that they admitted
into the schools, persons who would avowedly say that they
need not be taught it at all ? The Church of Rome was always
a political church ; and if she gained this cause, she would
gain a lever and a power against us, which we should
not be able to gainsay. The council had another duty
to perform—it was their duty to uphold the truth by their
example, to preserve that truth, and to bring others to it.
He would persecute no man. He did not say that the poor
should not have secular education, but in the present case
they were not only called upon to give secular education,
but to put aside the Bible. That was a very extraordinary
position ; and be thought he could refer to documents ad-
dressed to Mr. Blackburn, in which it was made clear that
the Bible was excluded under the former system from the
schools.
Mr. BLACKBURN.—No such thing.
Mr. HODGSON thought, however, that he could convict
Mr. Blackburn of inconsistency in the motion which he had
brought forward. Did he mean to say, that if the Bible was
locked up in the schools, they could be said to use the Bible
in them ? No. What was it, then, but an exclusion of the
Bible, if the children were allowed to come in on the express
condition that they might not use it ? Was not that an ex-
clusion of it?
Mr. BLACKBURN.—It is not an exclusion, but only a non-
enforcement of it.
Mr. HODGSON said he had a very different notion about it,
but the public would judge. Mr. Hodgson proceeded with
his address at considerable length; and he concluded with
an eloquent call upon the council to maintain the present
system of giving sound religious and Protestant education to
the children of the poor.
It being now twenty minutes to five o'clock, Mr. ASPINAL
said, that as the council had been sitting for more than five
hours and three quarters, they must be exhausted, and he
would, therefore, move the adjournment of the debate.
(Cries of "Adjourn.")
Mr. BUSHELL seconded the motion, and it being carried,
the debate was adjourned till Wednesday next.
a .NININOWIOEIN..

THE ACCIDENT ON THE VERSAILLES RAILWAY.—The
important trial arising out of this awful accident, concluded
on Saturday last, when it was decided that the administrateur
deWgue, the provisional director, the chief of the Paris station,
the civil engineer, the chief of the station at Versailles, and
the inspector of the service, should all be arraigned as
" guilty of homicide through imprudence."

BIRKENHEAD POLICE COMMISSIONERS.

The commissioners, under the act for the regulation and
government of the township of Birkenhead, held a general
meeting in the Town-halt, on TueSday. The following mem-
bers were present :—John Deane Case (chairman), William
Jackson (deputy chairman), W. Cole, D. M'Nicol, J. S.
Jackson, James Parker, J. H. Greene, J. W. Pritchard, C.
A. Watson, A. Kerr, M. N. Raynes, Thomas Gilbertson,
John Walker, D. Appleton, S. Stansfield, Joseph Pim. Rd.
Fry, and J. N: Wood. JOHN DEANE CASE, Esq., took the
chair.