The Statesman.
London, England, 1824-02-17 00:00:00

snake the change in money transactions which the Bill of
the Learned Sergeant goes to effect. I know perfectly well
that as his Majesty's Government have adopted this mea-
sure. I am speaking in vain in opposition to it; but in
order to show that though I did not attend the Committee,
I have not been so inattentive to it as my friends opposite
think, I will undertake to bring down with me the Minutes
of the Committee, and give a convincing proof that the
Bill ought not to pass.
Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW.—The Hon. Gentleman who
seconded the amendment and the Hon. Baronet have fallen
into very great mistakes respecting the origin of these
laws. 'they talk of the policy of these laws. If they had
read the preambles, they would find the laws ate founded
on the most godly notion, that any interest is contrary to
Christian principles. That is the language of the early
statutes. No question of policy was ever thought of.
Then we are told that the landed interest will be borne
down. I contend quite the contrary. My principle is
this—let money be free. The Bill is to allow persons to
make their own bargains ; and yet Gentlemen say, we un-
derstand your business better than yon, and under pretence
of aiding, we will threaten yon.
Mr. ALEXANDER BARING.—I think the repeal of
these laws a change of considerable importance, which
immediately would produce no effect whatever; and it is,
because it would immediately produce no effect that this is
a fitting time not to legislate upon the subject of fixing a
maximum in the value of money, hot to remove a false
legislation. As has been truly said by my Hon. Friend
who spoke on this subject, it is impossible to produce a
good reason for the present law fixing a msximnm in the
value of capital, any more than for fixing a maximum in
the value of any article whatever.—(Hear, hear.) This
is a most favourable opportunity for legislating upon the
subject. It is almost the only year for the last half cen-
tury when it could, with safety, be legislated npon. We
should avail ourselves of the opportunity of doing away
these laws. It is stated that there has been an accumula-
tion of capital and commerce, notwithstanding the exist-
ence of these laws. That is, because the laws have been
inoperative; because the evasion has always been so easy.
To my great surprise, the very class of persona who, I
should say above all others, wanld be benefited by the re-
peal of these laws, the Country Gentlemen—(hear, henry
have taken the alarm. The objection of that respectable
class is surprising, and I should hope, if it were only for
the advantage of hearing what may be said on the sub-
ject, and seeing if we cannot remove their apprehensions
and prejudices, that this Bill will he permitted to go fur-
ther ; but when it comes into a Committee, if we should
not be able to persuade the country Gentleman that this is
a Bill in his favour, nothing would be more easy than to
except from the operation of it the loan of money upon
mortgage, because it would be an immense benefit if these
laws were repealed, as respects every other transaction—
as respects the manufacturer and merchant. I have heard
no Gentlemen connected with these interests speak in
favour of these laws. If, on the further stages of this Bill,
we should not be able to persuade the country Gentleman
he is interested—more interested than any other class to-
gether, then you must relieve, at least, those who are under
the operation of the Bankrupt Laws; or except loans on
mortgage, if it should be deemed expedient. 1 can have.
no doubt whatever upon the sul.i.et that the 1 ,ntled pro-
prietors will derive very great relief from this (till—(hear,
hear), if they should ever come into the prediran►rnt in
which they stoad during the whole of last war, when the
Bill was inoperative on Commercial men, and Government
were borrowing at usurious interest, and the Country Gen-
tleman had to pay 1•f per cent. From all the consideration
I can give to this subject, I am persuaded that is the class
of persons that will he the most relieved, by having a
sound and proper legislation upon the subject. If, upon
further inquiry, we should not be able to remove those ap-
prehensions, nothing would be more easy than to give the
Gentleman the benefits of the present system, which I con-
ceive the greatest injury and the greatest curse.
Captain MABEItLY said the evidence before the
Committee all tended to the same point, that the
Jaws against Usury were very prejudicial in their present
state.

Sir IVNI. 1)E CRESPIGNY said a few words in support
of the Bill.

Sir JOHN MARTIN agreed that these laws were inju-
rious to all classes of the community.
Strayers were then ordered to withdraw. The numbers
on the divisions were—For the second reading, 120--
Against it, 23.—Majority, 97.
On our return to the Gallery, the CHANCV.LLOR of
the EXCHEQUER had just rose. Ile sail, that in
moving that the Report of the Committee of Ways and
Means be brought up, it is not my intention to move to
bring up those particular Reports which relate to Annual
Duties. As I understand it is the intention of the Hon.
Member (Mr. Hume) to propose an Amendment to one of
the Resolutions, namely, the duty on foreign spirits, I
think it my duty not to bring that question up to-night,
and for this reason. I stated to various persons who made
applications to me, that I did not feel at liberty to give an
opinion till this day se'nnight, when I should be at foil
liberty to state my view of the subject. And although I
do not feel that in asking the house to give the Annual
Duties, I should in any degree preclede myself, or any
other Member, from proposing alterations in Permanent
Deties.yet Ham: Member think I am calling on him to pro-
nounce a decided opinion on what I was myself declining,
should be sorry to put myself in that situation, and there-
fore I think it proper to abstain from bringing up the Re-
port of those Resolutions.
Mr. BRIGHT said he should be sorry to throw any
inconvenience in the way.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
the Report be brought up. He wished the house, in a
Committee of Ways and Means, to vote in supply of the
Consolidated Fund. Unless the house was disposed to
give the means of meeting the Supply already voted, there
would be some inconvenience.

Mr. MABERLY thought the vote should be taken in
the ordinary way.
Mr. HUME was prepared to have the vote post-
poned. The votes consisted of Sugar, the duty on
Rum, &c. He thought it all ought to stand over with the
Sugar.
Mr. BARING rose to pat a question to the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, but the Hon. Member spoke in so low
a tone, that we could only infer from the reply that it WAS
in allusion to the office of Remembrancer to the Ex-
chequer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thanked
the Hon. Member for the opportunity be had given him
of offering an explanation on the subject to which he had
adverted. It was true that on the death of Mr. Steele, the
late Itemembrancer, Mr. Vincent was appointed to fill the
office, but the Hon. Member could not suppose that the
tiovernment was so ignorant of its ditty, as not to pay due
attention to the sense of Parliament upon the subject, ex-
pressed in an act condemning this office, providing for its
abolition, and in fact changing the whole system of this
department upon the death of the individual who then filled
the office. In obedience to this act, only a few days had
elapsed after the death of Mr. Steele, when the Lords of the
Treasury took into consideration the means of carrying the
wishes of Parliament into effect ; but it must be recollected
that the law did not absolutely require the Lords of the
Treasury to abolish or regulate the duties of this office, it
merely provided that they should take into consideration
whatought to be the' future emoluments of the person ap-
pointed to fill it. la pursuance of this law, the Lords of the
Treasury called upon the Barons of the Exchequer, in their
official capacity, to report the duties of the office. In the
um time, before any new arrangement could be carried
into effect, the duties of the office must be performed, and
the immediate appointment of some person was therefore
necessary ; but what alteration would be necessary, in