The Statesman.
London, England, 1819-03-17 00:00:00

THE sTATFsmAr

of his creditors, who bed no metes whatever
of resetting that property. A Petition had been tome
lime ago presented from peones, who stated them.
selves to hare hseo kept in prisoa a number of jeer',
some of them eoty or thirty year.. On applies.

tiou to the keeper of the pine, be had been inform-
ed, that one of the persons who had petitioned, was
poniard of considerable property,thst she had been
living there sena! years on that property, and that she
trial:, have taken the benefit of the Act, bad she arisen
to give op that property. Another of she persons kept
there had been confined 20 years ou some Exchequer
pr.‘eess. %Vete creditors to be considered as hard.
bellied for keeping their debtors ia prison, when
they had no means of forcing the debtor to come for.
ward? There was a Report of a Committee of that
lloose on the subject in 1792. On looking into that
Report, it amid be seen that the same disposition
in debtors existed then, which now stated. This
Hoped Ives drawn op 27 years ago, and at that time
here were many prisoners who bad been 20 years im-
prisoned. There were there many disreputable per-
sons who followed the profession of the law, with.
set lining been regularly brought up to it, and prec.
Coed all a miner of pettifogging acts. Many of the
%divides's then in confinement, sweeter a period of
twenty years, had been kept in prison for the costs
to these pettifogging attornies. Varies' person
then, as well as now, chose to stay in prises,
living on their property rather than ply their
creditors. Ho Lad been accused of misrepre.
tenting some of the facts which he stated on a
former occasion. In March, 1817, two years ago,
the property decided on by the Insolvent Court
amounted to 8,800,0001. He did not know what
the end amount of the sem wee at the present pe-
riod. But he had said, if it bore any proportion to
that of the former part of the period during which
the Act bad been in operation, the whole would
amount to 14 or 15 millions; for up to March, 1817,
that is in three years, the sem moiled to 8,800,0001.
He lad dated, that lint one farthing in the pound
bad been receded. Bet they were now told that
this was a wrong calculation—that many of these
debts were twice incleded—that in cues of bills,
where mote than one insolvent were concerned in
the same bill, each insolvent gave in the whole
amount of the bill in the li.t of his debts. Looking
at the return from the Fleet Prison, it appeared that
a greater number of prisoners were liberated other-
wise than by the Act, than the number who took
the benefit of the Act. It appeared that those who
chine to make terms with their creditors were imme-
diately liberated, and that those who had 'speckled
all their property took the benefit of the Act. Ad-
mitting the accuracy of what had been stated by the
clerks of the lusolvest Court, that bills wen in-
cluded 1 times over, this might amount to ooe-
fourth of the whole. The Hone had been told that
this measure answered well in Scotland, and that the
Insolvent Act was founded on the Casio Bonorem of
Scotland. With respect to the law of Casio honorees,
it was like the Bankrupt Laws in one respect—lt al.
lowed an enquiry into the past conduct of the ',di-
videsl seeking to be liberated. Under the Bankrupt
Laws, de first thing which was done was an investiga-
tion of the accounts of the bankrupt, en eusioation of
his balance-sheet. Now he would ask the Hon. end
Learned Gentleman if this was the case with the In.
solvent Debtors' Act? He might appeal to any Gen.
Oman connected with trade, whether it was possible
for any itolivideal to obtain a certificate, unless he
satisfactorily accounted for the manner iu which he
got rid of his property. A great dui had been said
nspecting poor and distressed debtors. But what
was the fact ? By an account which he now held is
his hand, it appeored that the debts amounting to
10001. and upwards, ormed nearly three-fourths of
the whole. Out of four millions of property, the
debts amounting to 10001.. and upwards, came to
to 2,835,0001. It would hardly be conteuded that
those alto owed these sums were poor poisons thrown
Into prison by their bird-hearted creditors. The
Adornity.Ceiseral had told them that before the pre.
seat Act, every year there wasa necessity for a par-
tial Insolvent Act. The lion. Gentleman here went
into a deterrent. to show that from 1806 lb* nem•
her of persons discharged sutler these partial Acts
amounted only to a small proportion of the number
committed to prison for debt. On coming to 1814, they
would Winne persons committed sod discharged in
one year thee in three or four years payload,
under occasional Acts.—tilers do call of f/Seliieli
became 0,801114—1 t was not his intention to trees.
pass unnecessarily ott the lime of the linese,—bet
this was a subject of thegreatest importance to audits.
lie knew well, that on the subjects of a political nature,
when a few thousand pounds only were at stake, it
was easy to command the attention of the Hoes*,
end that large divisions would take place. Bat the
Hone ought to recollect that this was a tax on the
Westfield for the support of the profligate. He
would state his conviction that it was necessary to
have the subject on a dilfereet foundation altogether.
In fact, the plate where the Court was held, in the
City of Westminster, was so far from the seat of bu-
siness, that creditors rather than go so far would
prefer to less their dividend altogether. There was
another consideration. He did not mean to threw
out soy Imputation op any individual connected with
the Insolvent Debtors' Loads, as those individuals
were set here to defend themselves; bet be would
say that it was impossible for any iedivideal to do
justice to creditors, debtors, and the Public, who
Lid above 700 cases annually to deciJit, besides the
other business of the Coed. This was mese heel.
ewes thin belonged to the whole of the Cominissiewers
of Bankrupts and the Court of Chancery. It was
impro4sibie that one ierlisistuat, without a Jury and
oi•hout assistance, could execute the duties of such
an office. lie should only trouble the Ilene with
cue farther observation. Every individual with
whom he had conversed was of opinion that some-
thing was necessary. It might be necessary to sawed
the progisions of the Cord,' Act—to revise the Bank-
:opt L,ses, wish the view of diminishing the @mance
of oetitioning. If this were done, there would be
I oils necessity for a measure of this kind. But if a
n escarp of this kind most be brought in, he hoped it
would differ essentially from the present. As to the
°emitter. of the Ma. and Lunged Gentleman, be
knew n.d who was in his list. The lion. and Learned
t.eollamsn had indeed shown him the list true day,
a' he hlll.Oll he Would not pertmacionly adhere to
list. Ile had Leo or thee Dames to propose—

man.

Ise knew ant their sentiments on the subject, bet be
knew 'key were acquainted with business, and above
ill, with tisit effects produced by the Insolvent Act,
sod that they would glee an impartial consideration

to the subject.
Mr. ABFRCROMBIE agreed with the Attorney-
Geeeral in thinking that the Hasse was sot disposed
to enter lots this question at peseta. Ile thoeght
the coarse proposed by the Honourable and Learned

Gentleman was the most consistent with propriety
that could be adopted. The Learned Gentleman

Theo •niwsdrerted •t some length on the ebeerva-

dons ',bleb bad been made by Mr. Alderman Waitb-

Mr. HURST spoke in favour of the course m-
ooed by the Attorney.Geoeral.
Mr. Alderman WAITIIMk explained.
The ItlntiOn was then agreed to, end the Hon. end
Learned Gestlemen (the Attoroey:Generel) pro-

posed a Committee, which ioeledid the felte;elog

-htembors :

The AttonsarGesetol, Lori Altioorp. Sir M. W. MISR.
Mr. Alderman Waititinan, Mr. Abertronobie, Mr. Martin, Mr.
W. Cooneany, Mr. Broesbnin. Mr. Abbr.'s', Wood, Mr. CM.
croft. Mr. Wart Dario. avowal, Gotorort, Mr Rob. Wiboo.
Mr. Geo. Lamb. Mr. Fasakeriey, alai Mr. Leintdoo.

Air. Alderman wArrtim AN wished to know if
he coold be allowed to propose tome addltioual
names ?
The ATTORNEY•GENERAL Stated the res.
sons which bad induced bin to adopt the names be
bed proposed to the lions*, and isitimated an assent
to the wish of the Worthy Alderman.
.... .

Mr. ABFACROMBIIi objected to tulditionat
names, as tending to maks the Committee too amt.
MO.

Mr. Alderman WAITIIMAN, after some ohm-
rations, in wbieb he remar►ed that Sir James
Graham's name was not in the Committee, though
in the List first shown to him by the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman, proposed the following addi-
tional Members:—

Mr. JOH, Sawa, Mr. Clam Calvert, Mr. Mrll.lll, Ckarral
Garcopre (already larledril). Mr. Ilene liamtner, Mr. Pro.
elwrar, Mr. Oarmaravy. Slr John Pr. Hog. Mr. ii;ardso. Mr.
Moberly, Mr. Ma r. Mr. William. NY and Mr. nord..u.
Mr. COURT ENAY objected to the introduction
of those nouns.

Mr. BARING eovld not help thinking that the
Hos. and beamed Gentleman had oferpowed the
Committee with Learned Members. It was to be re-
collected that this was altogether a subject connected
with trade. . .

Lord CASTLEREAGII agreed that there was,
no irregelarity in a Member proposing names to be
added to a Committee, bat thought the proper', had
been carried to too great an 'strut by the lion.
demur.
Mr. Alderman WA ITIIMA N sold, he would avail
himself.' the Noble Lord's observation by proposiug
fire or sic —( fairs of No I)
The Committee had leave to sit noteithstandiog
adjournmonts of the House.
QUALIFICATION OF MEMBERS.
Sir G. WARRENDER lured for leave to briog
in a Bill to make property in Scotland available to
qualify its owner to sit in Parliament for a borough.
city, or county in England, es was the cue with

Irish property.
Mr. BROUGHAM asked if the 800. Gentlemen
was prepared to meet one objection which would be
made to his Bill, namely, why should out a coati's..
don in England render • Gentleman eligible to sit ea
Commissioner for a county in Scotland ? With re-
spect to Ireland, the benefit was reciprocal.
Sir G. WA RRENDER said, se landed qualifiea.
lion was required for • Scotch Borough, sod the qua.
hficatiou for a meaty was attainable for a very small
sum.
Leave was then given to bring in a Bill accord-
ingly.
ROCHESTER ELECTION
_OF MEMBERS.

Mr. W. WYNN amid, es order had been made to
,ay on the taMetst the Hesse the Minutes of Evidence
taken before the Rochester Election Committee. No
grounds bad bees stated for such a motion, which
was, therefore, irregular, and he should more that
the said ostler be discharged.
Mr. BENNETT said, the motion of his lion.
Friend celled on him to asaign some reasons for his
model. The Committee had declared the Petitions
apiest the return as frivolous and envious, aid he
wished that Petithreers should know the grounds en
'Aka they steed. Ile had been told that in (hit case
them was a doubt of the qualification of the sitting
Member. He had else been told that a case had
bees laid before Mr. Harrison and Mr. Warren, and
tint these Gentlemen bad declared their opinion that
there were grounds for a Petition, and on OM the,
Petition was presented; and yet epee that endeter- I
mined petal of law the Committee had declared the
Petition frivolous and mations.
Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to order. The
Hon. Gentleman most feel that he was out of order
in thus stating teen reports against the decision of
a Committee of the House ; seat comments on a
Committee sotto be attended with dangerous cos's.
quinces.
Mr. BENNETT could not but complain e? the
Noble Lord's laterreption, if he was disorderly the
Chair would interpose. Lest night he moved for the
Minutes without au, observations ; now he was called
on to state reasons, end was about to do so when
the Noble Lord interrupted him. He could see no
dense in commenting on the opinion of a Committee
of the House of Coolnines, when that Committee
differed in opinion on a question of law with there.°
meat eminent Parliamentary Barristers of oar day.
Tbedecisiori of Pointless questions was referred to
lb Gentlemen, fermieg the Mott hetereg Court
the see ever saw ; yet the decision of this Court was
not to be qeestimred. lie most thank God that the
liberties of the People dill not &pent! on the coil.
infections which this Court might pet en the law.
Lord NORM ANBY was a Member of this Cr m.
.mitste, sod felt it his duty to state, that he did not
apse is *oleo with the rest of the Committee on
this quesilee. He thought the Petitioner might have
doubts no the point of law.
Mr. S. BOURNE thought no doubt could be held
est this quessionorbieb was one es to the qualification
lof Lord Binning. Now it was well known, wn, that ever
since the Act of Anne, it was established that the
sons of Scotch I'eers required no qualification. Lord
Binning was ouch ; he was the sett of Lord Madding.
tea, a Scotch Peer. The lion. Gentlemen (Mr. Ben-
nett) said this was an vumooted.point of Lae ; troeit

was ameseted, because undoubted : it never hid been

argued, incept in tlso ease of Lord Kirk well, who was
the son of a Peeress. 'Cho law was well known ; the

Committee assumed that the Petitioner could not be

ignorant of it, and oo t►at (mod t►o Petition was
declared Irivoinus.
-

Mr. TIERNEY seiJ, the question here was, whe-
ther the Petitiou was Taaatioas Si well as frivolous.

Could it be emir! to be vesstioes, when the Petitioner,

previous to taking any step, armed himself with the
opinions of two most eminent lawyers; end when,
es be uadentond, the Committee divided men to
eight on the poles. With respect to the qeestion of
qualification, he (Mr. T.) certainly had his doubts.
Lard CAB I LERFAGIi repeated his epistles, that
no proceedlug coeld be more tleogeroes than that of
commenting .0 the decisions of a Committee. With
respect to vezatitras motives, he did not consider
that the Act alluded to mafiosi intents In the mind
of the Petitioner, but the 'nation brought on the
sittjng Member by unfounded petitioning. He was
also of opinion, that it would be a dangerous doc-
trine to go abroad, if it were seppnsed for a moment
the House entertained an °pinks+ that a Geollerosn's
obtaining • favourable opinion from any two Coun-
sel at the Bar would excuse his presenting •n en.
founded Petition egaiast the retort+ of a Member.
Mr. W. WYNN Bald, the Haase had nut given
up the power of deciding on controverted Elections.
The Order was then discharged.
ROYAL EQUERRIES.
Sir A. HOPE., is bringing forward his motion that
Isis Equerries, instead of boar, should be continued
1 on the Windsor Establishment, said, that the Einev-
ries themselves did not wish this motion to be used',

bet to be snowed to attend his Majesty without emit.
I••••t. It his Majesty were restored to his ender.
Needle`, be ought to find Weasel( surrounded by
Hone senrents whom he had formerly bad about him.
—Sir Brent Speocer and General Wynyard ought to
be continued as his Majesty's Equerries, from the
partiality the King bore them. Besides, the re-
moval of these two, he was afraid, would prevent
the regular attendants of the other four upon his
Majesty. The others were too old to give regular
attendance on the King. The question of 'crummy
was gone from this ase, inasmuch as the sum for
de Equerries has already been toted by Parliament.
—The ground was therefore more ever for his pro-
position that these faithful ls should be con-
tinued about his Majesty. IVlten the Committee
had suffered this thousand pounds for the two
Equerries to pass, what good could result from the
redaction of the offices? Even Mr. Berke was of
opinion, in bringing in his Economical Bill, that the
Officers about the King's Person ought not to be re.
tined ; bit et that time the Kieg himself reduced his
Equerries from seven to five. When our Sovereign
on blighted by the hand of Heaven, were the Com-
mons of England to trample on his dignity ? They
all kuew that it was first breaking doe, the bulwarks
and out-polls of Sovereignty, which bad produced so
much inanity and confusion le other countries. To
deprive his Majesty of his Officers was to trample on
his dignity, end to efflict sod opprir his if he were
to recover. if the King should recover, and call for
any if these eernots, what would be his feelings,
when told that he had beets deprived of them by the
parsimony of the Hone of Common? Ue thee
moved, that although it is expedient that no onne.
eesssry ninnies should tats place in the Establish.
meet at Windsor, yet the None would met mintiest
the reduction of de Equerries.—[A hawk.]
Mr. PERCEVAL said,nothing would have raised
him from his net but that last disrespectful laugh.—
[Hear, pearl]—lf there were soy thing contempti.
ble in weakly edvocatiog the cause of hie revered
Moons's, he was ready to beer it. He regrettetV
that it was ever necessary to resort to this motion g
bet it arose from the Ministers of the Crows coelt.l
pounding with a Committee to give op this miserable
pittance to snore them from greeter detests. At the
same time, he must deprecate the conduct of the
other side, which had forced this upon Ministers, by
representing them as the most worthless and pretii.
gate Administration that had ever lavished away the
public money. He did not think the country would
consider this as an essential question of economy.
Lord CAS ILEREAGH said, that all who re.
collected the unshaken constsocy and *batty with.
which his glorious father supported the dignity of the
Crown, would make every allowance for his eller.
veteran of feeling on this subject. He most, how.
ever, differ from the present motion, not thinklug
that by so doing be was letting down the dignity of
the Monarch. If he could be brought to think se,
nothing could iodine him to oppose the motion ; bet
he would rather have appealed from the judgment of
the Committee to the opinion of the Hoese. This
motion ought to have been code before the Hone
hail decided en the number of the Equerries. He
concluded by moving, as an amendment, the pinion
crestioe.
Sir A. HOPE explained that he bed brought for-
ward this motion as soon as he was told he could.
Mr. LAMBbegged to assure the lion. Gentleman
(Percent) that me man felt mere regret and respect
for his lamented father than he did; bet the laugh be
had complained of did not proceed from disrespect of
the venerable Monarch, but from the inconsistency of
the motion with the promises of economy already held
out. The milieu itself bad been decided against in
the Committee above stain, and in that Horse. Ile
regretted that prudential reasons should have made it
necessary to dismiss these Officers, but it was time
that every possible saving should be made. The lion.
Officer might be interested in this motion, as he
might feel for she sufferers as military men.
Sir A. 110 PE said, Stowe of his military connections
had etre attempted to intluence him in ally way ; and
if they bad, it unsold have had she effect of bunking
off ail further connection between them.
Sir J. NICHOL concerted with the motion, as
there was a prubability of the Sovereign becossieg
again sensible of the objects d him.
A bIEII Brit, whom. name we could not learn,
said, that if it ins necessary to tr.lntr the two
Eyeeriies, the two ,Naval Grooms of the lied•sham-
her should he renewed also.—(d laugh )
Mr. MARTIN (of Grassy) we* ter the two
Equerries, these slot fur the reason sniped tot
their necessity.
Mf. (,RA.TTAN still, that if he retold ritit.t. these
slicers swessary for the digi•ilf or ertreft.ei of the
t,e Gm etc ti. SWAMI fur a p..itr)

siring of 10001. or of 10.0001.; but he though!, in
the present slits of the King, a tory multitudinous
train would be a to, ...Pty.
The House then
Fur tliegaMlDO 65 ! F,nshe previous eiestion S:l9 I \Lijcrltylf3.
Thu House then went into a Cumatittee on the
Royal Windsor Gitablishment Bill, %lien the itepult
nos received, and ordered to be taken into 'either
con.ideration on letid.y. sad to be pointed.
The Marine Mutiny Bill was reed a third time,
land passed.
'l'h,, Wellington Estate Bill was read a first time,
sod coarse(' to be reed a second time this day.
The Eichrieer Balls Bill was read a first time,
and (+Meted to be teed a second time this day.
The other Orders were then disposed of, and at
Half-past Twelve the Bosse adjoureed.