The Statesman.
London, England, 1810-06-07 00:00:00

AfF.Syl .

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right. How was a.Jurrto decide upon them ? -It
appeared, then, that the privileges of the House
of Commons were supreme : and he would prove
that their privileges were the law of the laud. In
order to do .so, ho/referred to the often-renclited
qictuni of Lord Coke, that all privileges of Para'
'lament Must be determitied there; and he also
quoted the passage from Judge Blackstone's
Commentaries, statues, that the Privileges of
Parliameut must be learnt and determined by pee.
cedent. He contended, therefore, that the most
able lawyers understood the law pf Parliament to
be the law of the land. He then referred to
the section of Magna Charta, which states, that
no freeman shall be disseised or imprisoned, ex-
cept by the judgment of his peers, or the law of
the laud, and inferred, that as Lord Coke and Sir
Wm. Blackstone were of opinion that the law of
Parliament was the law of the land, it followed
as a necessary conclusion, that Sir I'. Burdett and
J. G. Jones were imprisoned by the law of the
land. Then he proceeded to state several cases
in the time of Elizabeth and subsequent reigns,
which he said were.. analogous to the cases of Sir
Francis Burdett and Gale Jones. These cases have
already been combated and refuted by the Hun.
Baronet, and therefore it is useless to repeat the
,lie then adverted to the particular merits of the
two persons who were the objects of the proceed--
ings of the House of Commons; and first, with
regard to Gale Jones, he read from the works of
Peter Porcupine a passage whisk reflected upon
the moral character of that person,- and described
the debating societies to which he was attached as
places where .ignorant rneti assembled, in order to
give utterance to seditious principles. With re-
spect to Sir Francis Burdett, he allowed there
were some good traits in his character ; but as to
his patriotism, it was different from all those no.
tious of patriotism which he had imbibed when a
boy. If the Hon. Baronet was really a Patriot,
he would not have associated with convicted trai.
tors. [At this expression there were murmurs.
some. hisses, and several exclaimed " Shame!"l
He said he was entitled to try the lion. Baronet's
patriotism by that test. He proceeded to observe,
that he had read the debates and Parliamentary
history from the Revolution down to the present'
period ; and he had found nothing upon the sub.
ject of Parliamentary Reform till the time of Lord
Chatham. lie had tkound that Sir Wm. Wynd.
ham, in 1776, complained of the practice of per.
chasing Boroughs. He stated, that in the Long
Parliament it appeared that seats were bought and
sold—therefore the purchase of seats in Parliament
was nut a new thing. He had looked into the de.
bates of the Convention Parliament, at a period
when the liberties of the people were most attend.
ed to, and he had found nothing about Parliamen-
tary Reform. lie referred to a letter of Lord
Chatham to the City* of London, in which he said
he was bound to declare that he could not recent-
' mend triennial Parliaments; audio that letter there
was not one word about cutting off rotten bo.
roughs. He complained that those who professed
to wish for Parliamentary Reform did not accu-
rately define what it was they wanted : it was a
subject upon which no two persons could agree.
The object of the motion lately made by. Mr.
'LAM was wholly different from Sir Francis Bur.
dett's plan of Reform. It was stated by the mo-
dern reforMers, that they desired to bring Parlia.
meat back to its ancient Constitution. Ile wished
, they would fix on a point when that blessed state to
which they desired to bring Parliament back did
really exist. He then went into a gcueral descrip.
Lion of the origin of Parliaments, reading from
the works of old historians a quantity of trite
commonplace matter, which few persons are un-
acquainted with, describing how they were corn.
posed of. the great men or Magnates—how the
people were formerly constituted of two orders,
Lords of Fees, and Valdes. From these lemt.
nous researches he proceeded to an elaborate ele.
eidetion of the quarrels between King John and
his Barons, which eventually produced the memo.
rable Charter of our liberties, known by the name
of Magna Charts. Ho continued his readings till
he came to the ;era when King Edward the First
called Citizens and Burgesses to Parliament, assign.
big as a judicious reason for his doing so, that he
had assembled his Parliament for the purpose of
taxation.

Mr. SLADE said, that since septennial Parlia.
;fleets had been adopted, there had been continual
complaints of the corruptioni of our Representatives
in Parliament. He then took a review of the va.
rious Motions for a Reform of the Commons
Hausa of Parliament. If the people did not come
forward with one common .acid unanimous Voice,
what reason had they to expect. that the House of
CoMmons would reform themselves? None, as the
results of* the various Motions for Reform fully
proved. All that was asked was a restoratiott of
those privileges to which the people were entitled.
(Hear! heur I)—He had no hesitation whatever
in supporting the present Motion.
Mr. MA WMAN admitted that the question was
of great importance. Ile saidthat every man who
had given any reflection to the subject, could have
no doubt but that the House had a right to exer.
cise the power they had exercised. Ile could not
approve of the Motion, for he thought nu good
could result from it.
Mr. LUCAS moved is an Amendment—
" That this Court, relying on their Representatives In Par-
liament. are convinced that every retrenchment will be made
that L. con.istent with oar safety t and they trust that neither
House of Parliament Would be deterred fruits Making such
Reform as they might think necessary."
Mr. NV A InimAN said, that whatever differ.
ence of opinion there might be as to the Wal.
cheren Expedition, there could be no difference of
opinion as to the enforcement of the Standing Or.
dr—it was an ungracious act. Authorities had
been cited as to the power pf Parliament; but
were the aethorities of Chathatn, Rorke, Fut,
and others of no avail ? Burke hadaaid, a House
of Communs Was not instituted to be a controul
on the people, but a centroul for thc people.—
.Burke and other's had expreasecl their 'opinions in
language ,sich more strong against the House of
' commons and against the Ministets, than had
' been tissid in the present • day ; yet "fere they
stet noticed. • Why should he floc have the same
privileges that Mr. Burke had exercised a Mr.

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Burka further • said, If the Remo west. beyond
the law, if they suspended"tha law, thee would
0 the horrors of the Star Chamber be re.
vivcd. There *ere Lord Erskine, Sir S.
,ly, asnt other eminent ckaracters, hail-. agreed with
his, and such, tike factious individuals* as to the
right of the Howse to exercise the power they had.
The Hon. Gentleman on the other sidelef the ti.
ble, (Mr. Jacks) in attempting to read. the Court
out of their depth by citing his musty records as
usual, had read .hinsself out of depth. He would
agaiu cite what he had cited. before, Burleiglee
maxim, that England would never be ruined except
by her Parliament. It was grounded in truth.
Lord Somers had said, that the safety of the pee.
pie was the supreme law. 'Could any one ask
what he waited by Reform ? Things wanted re-
formation. Things were in a monstrous situa-
tion. lie would not repeat all the shameful acts
of peculation, but what reason had they to confide
in the douse of Commons ? There was not an
instance in history where a Government had been
overthrow't by the people, but where the Govern-
ment had bee, corrupt. There was not au in.
stance under heaven. Unless they could cease to
think, they could not cease to act—they could not,
avoid seeing those things that had occured. As
to the noun' reforming themselves it was non.
sense, a child of ten years old would not believe
such nonsense. Ile cared nothing about the cha-
racter of Gale Jones or Sir Francis, but in their
persons the liberties of Englishmen had been vio-
lated. Our despicable Ministers hated the sound
Of liberty, their conduct towards Spain • proved it.
He trusted that the motion would be adopted.
Mr. FAVEIJ followed on the same side, and
quoted from the abhorrers, as they were called,
who rallied round James the Second, immediately
I previous to the Revolution, some Declarations
poblished by them, whicirwere quite the same as
those lately issued front the Subscribers of the
Counter• Declaration. The one possessed as much
loyalty and desire fur peace as the other, while,
possibly, in both, the parties were equally sin.
cere; and while- they proclaimed a regard for the
Constitution, Sought only to preserve the corrup.
tions upon what they .subsisted. t Ilearl hear
Mr. QUIN, in his reply, alluded .to the ob.
serrations of an Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Jacks), that if any Prince in this country c,ould
desire to overturn the Constitution, his first ob-
ject would be to degrade—to destroy the House
of Commons. But he begged the Honourable
Gentleman to reflect, that the Prince who could
so proceed with such an object, must. be a very
clumsy manager indeed—for, according to the
present system of the representation, as the House
of Commons was constituted, and as it generally
conducted itself, it would obviously be the policy
of such a Prince to preserve and promote the pow.
er of such a House, as the best machine to be
employed fur the accomplishment of his ends.
(Loud crier of hear 1 hear !)
A division' then took place, and the numbers
Were— •
For the original Motion
Against it

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87
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Mi;lority for Mr. Quin's Motion and the Petition 6
Adjourned.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. •

HOUSE OF LORDS, Juns 6. •
The Machinery Export Bill, the Sk. Eustatim Trade Bills
and the Judge Advocate's Franking Biil, were rea4 a third
time and passed.
The Militia Pay 8111, the Militia Adutabt's Bill, the Irish
Militia Bill, and the &Sees Security Regulathin Bill,. were
brought up by Mr. Lashiugtuo and other Mevabers of the
House of Commons, and read it first time. The Gas Light
Bill was also brought up by Sir James Graham and other
Members, with the Aniendmoas agreed to.
The Irish Loan Bill was read a second time, and committed
for to-morrow.
The Poor Bikdge Bill passed through a Committee, and
was reported.
The second reading of the Revenue Penalties Bill, was, on
the motion of Earl Spencer, fixed fur Saturda3r.
CATHOLICIe. • j

The. Order of the Day having been real,
The Earl of .DoNOUGHMORE said; the un.
willingness which he felt in pressing himielf upon
their Lordships' attention at any time, was greatly
increased by those circumstances of peculiar die.
courageirteut, under which it became his present
duty to enter upon the discussion of a subject
which bad been so often agitated, as to have lost
all the grace of novelty, and was now, un'furiu.
'lately, deprived of all that power of attraction
which it had formerly possessed from the eloquence
and ability of the Noble Baren (Lord Grenville).
Ile was fully aware of the difficulties that had
arisen out of recent events, but the Petitioners were
the best judges of their own case, and with respect
to this application had decided for themselves; His
Lordship expressed a strong disapprobation of cer.
tain strictures citi Lord Grenville's letter, and parti.
cularly as coming professedly from a quarter deeply
interested in the success of these Petitions, and re.
commended to-his Catholic countrymen a candid
appreciation of the motives of those public men
who had never deserted their public duty: With
respect to the objections to the claims of these Peti.
flutters, the argument lay within a narrow compass.
The Act of the 12th and 13th of William 111. fur
the settlement of the Crown, had three avowed ob.-
jects equally distinct from each other, and of equal
importance, the establishment of the right of sue-
' cession to the Crown in the present reigningiiimi.
ly—the principle which respired as an indispensable
condition, that the King siiiii4tl hold communion
with the established Church';. and; Cady, there
securities which the Act provide& for the rights
and liberties ofjhe people. But where-war- there
in this Statute any provision to preicilhe or
regulate the religion of the Membeesa4neither.
House of Parlipent, or of the King'ILSAVII or mi.
litary servants This sublett was aciatitiliainner
the consideration of the . hauliers of the Act, but
producedeprovisioa of a very different complexion,
according to which no alien, thu' naturalized, can
hold any office of trust or profit *tido the Crown,
civil or military; or bg a KnetiibP.',Of cliker Home
of Parliament. He drew, thereffore,
,tisis cunclu.
slim, that the exclusions then considergnecessery
to be declared as fixed constitutiiiiikprinerples,
were not upon the subject of religion: Of the
compact between the Sovereign and the people in
1688' the 13111 of ltighks was at once the etidence
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i,.1."1..0f J. 0., •
andethe, T 05101.11011 //here did diey find iu tha
Aim exclustOp44 tic, King's Catholic subjects.
life isah vinfe, ask tho,Test and Corporation Ac
i f pre ,tp, in .ealote4 and were sulfered to re.
F , : full i
,mom in Aoree, sad ihat it was since the Revo.
Ingots thkt Rjealoeiy.of the State seemed to have
4ecu usstakitfe against the Catholics. But against
what distcriPtoftst 44 persons had those exclusions
..
become necessary ;t the Restoration of Clinics th
Second ? Sprely not against the Catholics, who had
steadily adhered to the Monarchy, but against th
Puritans. During the short reign of James the S ,
coed, and the latter years of Charles the Secuo,
Popery certainly made its appearance in equestioo.
able shape, and at the periud of the Revolution cr.
elusions confessedly became equally necessary ;0,
against the Catholics. it was their duty to confine
them so lung as the same necessity should exist, lin
,-they should out suffer themselves to conrotano

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these securities with the Constitution itself. ,
The fundamental principles of the Constite.
-.1
tints which comprised those liberties which were
the birthright of the 'British nation, the insepara.'
We Protestant quality of the Crown, anti the
maintenance of the Church as established by la*,
would not be entrenched upon by grouting the,
claims of the Catholics. The motives for the re.,
stri*o Acts against the Catholics had now ceased
to operate; where were they ntev to find the as.
section of the rights of exiled Royalty, and of the
repudiated Catholic faith? Where. were now the
thunders of the once air pea ert,ll head of that
Church ? If all these dangers had entirely ceased to
exist, where was the argument fur continuing
these degrading disabilitie, ? But what sophistry,
they were asked, would satisfy those consticntioue
scruples winch interposed alt insuperable obstacle •
to these concessions in the oath of the King. At..
cording to the constitutional duttrine, all dui
King's sets were the acts of the Ministers, and I.
from the sainereasoning these conscientious sem.
pies were to lie considered in that House, not as
those of the Royal inied, but as the scruples, reai
or asstinied,. of the Ministers. And first from this
wordsof the oath, 44 such rights as du or shall ap-
pertain," it will' obviousi that these rights wercl
subject to be reviewed, ,and muddle,' according to
circumstances.' Even atitibiltantive and direct mu.
alificatinn (hectors Would'elot infringe this °blip-
tiUit; but the Catholics did not solicit any such
thilig, en the contrary, solemnly disclaimed *pea
oath all wish le iaterfere with' the rights of .the
Church as established by law. But was it likely that
the legislature would at the time this obligation was
framed, have presulned that the interposition of
such a clteck•woitld ever become necessary to se-
cure the Constitution, and that too against the
two Houses of Purliament themselves ; or that
they would have consented to place so unconsti.
tutional a power in the hands of the third estate?
There was, therefore, this plain and obvious an.
swer to be given' to all these scruples of consci.
ence, that the bath of the King does not epply
to the making of laws, but to the execution of
them. Ent -where were these conscientious eerue
pies, when, in the time of King Williain, it,
1689, Episcopacy was abolished in Scotland, amt.
the Probyterian religion established ? or when,
more recently, the Roman Catholic Religion Was
established under the British Government at the
other side of the Atlantic—or was the contempti,
bte farce played at Corsica erased from theis.cee
collectinti, where the King was insulted by the
present of a neer Crown, and the religion of admit
a second time established by our scrupulous fsli,
nisters? It was said, that Catholics and rrd,
testants had never drawn together cordially in
the common enjoyment of political Privileges oe
the joint discharge of public duties. This anemia,
lion he denied. Who ever questioned the teal sod
fidelity of Still? to his Catholic Master, Hwy thit
IVtb of France ? Could' it be conceived that the
brilliant career of Saxe; bf Schomberg, or Tie..
reline, was restrained by the reflection that they
were fighting the battles of's Prince of a religion
different from their own ? lii the American States,
who had ever complained that that Constitatioa
worked ill, because all situations were open alike
to every citizen, of whatever religious persuasion?
He denied another assertion also, that the eaperi.
ment of such a communication of privileges es that
he was contending for had already failed in the ex,
perience of our own country, for no argument
could be drawn from the reign of James the Se-
cond, his object being the extinction of the liberty
of his people arid the overthrow of their religion!
Another objection had arisen from the condo;
imputed to the Petitioners; they were said ho.
be unreasonable men, and devoid of gratitude ,
for favours already conferred. His Lordship
then went over the different measures which had '
been adopted for the purpose of relaxing the re.
strictiuns on the Catholics, and contended that the
Catholics had never been deficient ingratitude tee
those concessions, bet had been always really to
render complete justice to themselves and to offieial
The refusal of the Catholics to disclaim the aetho,
rity of the Pope in spiritual matters, was, however,
the master objection against those of the profile.
day, which appsered like Aaron's serpent, to have.
swallowed up all the rest. No man was so Ivo-
rant •as out to know that its professed unity iti dee,'
trine and in discipline, under one and the same del
dared head, was the essential distieguishingcharae
teristic of the Catholic Church, and. yet they were
teld that the Irish Catholielli were the most unrea-
sonable of men, because they would not renounce,
upon oath; this first tenet of their religion, aedcfoit
sent to recogeize 1 new head of their Church in she.
person of a-Protestant King. The Irish Catho-
lic, gilder ehe'existieg tests, solemnly abjured the
authority o( thdeape its ail temporal matters, pledg-
ed himself (tete •a faithful subject rlf (lie King, mid
tolefend the 'or:cession of the Crown, and the
arrangement of property, as now' established by
sow, and that lise•ewelt' Oen, exercise any privet.
legeto'which. he ;y; ;or"' rimy become entitled, to
&Herb the •Preleetent religion or Protestant
•Gir.4o.ntiteut... Whit -possible ground of appre,.
hensien could, there be which aas not effete.
illy protitred votes; by the terms of this oath ?
Tile Celholic ..wSiki. not Aecti4cally renounce its
spiritual matieneadl connection with the acknoiv-
ledgett head of histai's Church, end why should it,iie
required of him in ail teinpoeat concerns ? he tied