The Statesman.
London, England, 1818-05-15 00:00:00

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'else its Independence. The Noble Lord, he ob-
served, had spoken be justly of the character of the
present King of the Netherlands, but he would add,
that it was his people who bad called him back, and
invested him with the title he enjoyed. The union of
Holland and the Netherlands was not a question
then forbdiscassion, bet should it ever come before
their Lordships, be Misted, without contrite/snit%
the high authorities produced by the Noble Lord,
whose opinions were, no doubt, all very correct -in
reference to the times in which they were uttered,
be shoed be enabled to show that the interests both
of Holland and of the Netberlseds rendered such
a masers necessary. If, however, the Noble Lord
fancied that the disposition or loyalty of the People
bad bees in the slightest degree affected by the union,
he was very much mistaken,,for there was not a
country is Europe where the People were more at-
tached to their Sovereign than in the Netherlatels.---.
After the removal of then crop yoke which bad weigh-
ed down EarepeithePeople of that country had now
the enjoyment of an 'salient Constitution, ma-
terially improved by acts which could not have been
the melt of any foreign influence. The Noble Lord
bad spoken of the former policy'of this country and
of Holland, in respect to the admission of strangers;
but he (Lord Liverpool) would say it for Great Bd.
tale and for Hollandy a country to which, neat to
~his own, he was Most attached of any in Europe,
that their policy had -to no respect altered; they
each still held their doors open to the foreigner who
3 came in the oppenness of frieodsbip, or who sought
for abetter from state or religious persecution. But
ie offering hospitality, was there no difference to be
bed between the meritorious or the evil-disposed ?
Of coed it be supposed that the State, like indivi-
deals, had no power of shutting its doors against the
incendiary and the robber ? The principle of re.
moving foreigners by the sole power of the Crown
bad bees 'treacly frequently recognised by solemn
treaties, whereby Stales, and this State among others,
bad eugeged to deliver op individuals. The Noble
lord seemed to him to have made out no case to
jpstify the motion: he should therefore give it his
-; Tim
be Fred of •CARNARVON conceived that the
..-ettesons presented by the Noble Es rI opposite (Liver.
4mo!) did tint justify the proposed measure of the
,/Mien Bill. If his arguments, founded on a wean-
',shy eti,ittg from the policy of other countries, bad
ny force, it should have the effect of confiding to
Ministers, not a temporary• power, but of arming
them with a general and perpetual authority.—
(Hear, heart)
Lord HOLLAND briefly replied, observing that,
when the Alien Bill came before their Lordships, he
should, he trusted, be enabled to show that the mea-
sure was extremely inhospitable, and inconsistent
with the character of the country. The Noble Lord
had seemed to t hink that he had represented the Peo-
ple of Holland as discoutended with their Govern-
ment. The fact, he was convinced, wasessentially
the contrary ; and he believed that no People bad a
better right to be contented with their Constitution.
—[Bear, hear, hear.!]
The motion was put and negatived without a divi-
siou.—The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Gen. HART gave notice, that on Tuesday next be would
submit to the House a motion, relative to the 54th of the King
tespecting Levies on Town Lands in Ireland.
WATER-WORK COMPANIES.
Sir J. GRAHAM presented a Petition from several inhabit.
nods of the Purish of Mary.le.brinne.agaiust the Bill for allow-
ing the Parish to supply itself with Water; which. in his opi-
nion. Was certainly one of the wildest ',Caftan evil' entertained
by mans although he had been unable to penuade the Parish to
relinquish it. He trusted, however, that it would be yet with•
down. Adverting to several communicating* with the differ-
ent Water-work Companies by which the Parish was at present
supplied. he declared that be found them ready loafed a great
supply of Water on very moderate tern—fur remuneration. in.
doe t. so small, that he was persuaded no other set'of individeals
would be found disposed to imitate them. la this opi he he
Ives sore the House would agree with him, when be told them
that those Companies were sati.ffed with a profit of 4 per cent.
tri.their capital. Under these circumstance Ise trusted that the
Moose would not sanction Me measure in progress, even if it
were persisted in.
Mr. PORTM AN said a few words in a low tone of voice, the
purport of which appear*/ to be to express his belief that the
Sill in question would be withdrawq.
Mr. P. MOORE warmly protested again.t she principle of
allowing a Parish Vestry to convert a Parish into& Joint Stock
%Voter-work Company.
Glen. THORNTON maintained that the Public were at the
merry of the Water-work Companies, and suggested the ap-
poimment of a Committee to enquire into the subject.
Mr. II ARV NY thought that the Public had derived coati.
durable benefit from the rivalry of the different Com; antes. bqt
did not wish that it should be carried in far as to produce
(as had •omettines occurred in the c•tuspvtition of stage.a/adt
proprietors) the ruin of all parties. He was persuaded that 111;
could never be in the coutemplation of the Legislature to allow
a Select Vestry to make the whole parish to which it belongcd a
Water-work Company.
The Patti. a was then alleged to lie no the tables as were
al;ti two other Petitions, presented by Sir J. GRAHAM, of a
sionier kind—the one from the We,t Middlesex Water.works
. Company, the other from 4 Chelsea Water-works Company.,
Mr. MG:v DY presented a Petition from the Manufacraress
aid" Merchants of Derby, pra- ing that no addition might be
made to the duties on the importation of Canna Wool ; and Mr.
Ils,mertoo axis sem Petitiees frees Lancashire to tbesause-effect.
—Ordered to lie on t e table.
' Mr. Oresented n estimate of the expence of building
glebe-looses, Ike. to Leland.— Ordered to be printed.
Mr. M K presented a Petition from the Provost aod Fel-
ines of King's College, Aberdeen. proving t at the House
- would guard their right; to Copies of New Pahlicatioas.—Or-
dered to be printed, and tw be referred to the Committee de the
Copyrights bill.
MR. 0088 .?T.
Lord COCHRANE said he held in his band a Peti-
tion on a subject as interesting es any that had ever
been considered within the walls of that. House. 11/4
proceeded from an individual who had been induce&
to exile himself front his coentry in consequence
those notorious and Ilagrent acts of spies and ha
formers, by whick the Legislature had been ezcited!
to adopt the mm 410040 the last Session of Partin..
ment. This ilititten referred to two documents—
affidavits swats) before the Major of Philadelphia,
whose hsod-itititing was attested by the British Con-
sul. One of tbose affidavits was signed by William
Stevens, a person who was implicated in the various
transactions that had induced Parliament to consent
to the Saspension of the Constitution; the other
• signed by Chattel Kendall, who was also implicated
in the same transactions. These affidavits placed the
whole matter in the most clear and explicit point of
view, showing that these transactions were attribut-
able to the machinations and efforts of the spies and
itildfmen, and chiefly of Oliver. They described in-
deed such pr diets on the part of Oliver, that he
(Lord Cochrane) was petseaded the House would
'eel that it was hsrumbent on them to institute an en-
goirj into Ilse ttabk.ct. 'rue propriety and necessity

lir

thought it necessity to leave the votively .when the.
Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was in the con
temptation of the Legislature. •It was not net:
for him to enter into the 'object matter of it, bock
prayed the House to take into consideration the an.
netted public documents. It stated various matters ;
and among others the conviction of the Petitioner
that it was in the contemplation of Ministers to esti- i
blish a kind of superintendence or censorship over •
the Press.
The SPEAKER observed, that the Noble Lord
was perhaps not aware that the appendis containing
the affidavits could not with propriety be presented.
The House might receive the Petition, but would ant
receive any appendis. He thought it important to
mention this to the Noble Lord at present, es' if be
had rightly collected the wear of the Noble Lord's
observations, the Noble Lord had referred to pipers
entitled to the Petition. It wnuld be few the Noble
Lord to consider how far the Petition would be is.
telligible without the affidavit,.
Lord COCHRANE replied, tliag be weold, not.
say that the word " annexed" occurred in the Pe*
tion, although it certainly.. referred to the affidavits
to which he had alluded.
The Petition was then brought up, anti read by
the Clerk. It was from Mr. Cobbett, of Botley, in
the county of Southampton, now resident in the State
of New York, professing the greatest respect and
veneration for the character of the House, but repro.
bating the system of treachery and cruelty which had
for years been carried on through the intervention 01
spies and informers, and stating that the Petitioner
bad recently seen in Philadelphia two individuals, the
one of the name of William Stevens, of Nottingham,
the other of Charles Keodal, of London, who had
communicated to him a variety of facts relative to the
conduct of one Oliver. Those facts had been duly
attested on oath before the Mayor of Philadelphia,
and were attached to his Pedal's. The Petition pro.
'seeded to discuss at considerable length the circum-
stances which gave rise to the prosecutions at Derby;
severely censoring the conduct of Colonel Fletcher,
as well as that of Mr. Cross on the trials; disclaim.
lug the imputation by the latter, that the Publica-
tions of the Petitioner had been calculated to infante
the minds of the People; expressing the apprehen-
sions of the Petitioner (from the avowal contained in
two Ministerial Prints), that some measure was in
contemplation for imposing further restrictions on
the Lisierty of the Press; and concluding by playing
the House to institute an enquiry into the real na-
ture of those transactions which had brought the un-
fortunate Brandreth and others to the block.
On Lord CoCHRSPies moving that the Petition
should lie no lho /Ale—
Mr. BATHURST rose. and said he apprehended
it was impossible to conceive that the House Coed
receive this informal Petition.—[Hear, hear!]—
So far as he could collect the object of the Peti-
tioner, it was not to colt the attention of the House
to any specific grievance of his own, but to that of
other individuals. who might, if they pleased, sub-
mit their complaints directly from themselves in
the usual way.— [f/ear!]—lf they had any abuse to
complain of they could do it by a direct Petition,
and not by documents annexed to that of another.—
Now, as to the time at which these individual, left
the country, and the motive ahich led to their esile.
all that he should say was tr.is—that one of them
went away a considerable time before the coercive
Ac's alluded to acre introduced, and the other
some time after. But besides the informality in the
Petition, he bad also another and a stronger ob-
jection to its reception, namely, that it was made the •
vehicle of a libel on the judgment and talents of
Mr. Cross, who bad assisted in conducting the
defences at Derby, and also on a most worthy Ma-
gistrate, Colonel Fletcher.—[llear, hear !]-- Un-
der such circumstances, he really hoped the ruble
Lord would see the propriety of withdrawing the
Petition, without any further discussion upon the
subject.—( Hear!)
Lord COCHRANE said, that his motive in pre-
senting the Petition was to lay before the House the
very important matter which it contained and allotted
to. He particularly wished to have the documents
accompanying the Petition read, as they related, in
an extraordinary and explicit manner, to the coo-
duct of a spy of whom so much bad been said and so
little done. As it appeared, however, that the
coarse he proposed was informal, be had no objec-
tion to withdraw the Petition, not with any view
of immediately presenting another, but for the pur.
pose of informing the individuals of the formal course,
by distinct Petitions, to which they most resort to
get at the ear of the Hattie.
gr. WYNN wished to know whether, if the.,
Petition were withdrawn after being read at the table,
the Journals would contain any record of its contents?
The matter being so objectionable, he thought no re•
curd of it should be suffered on their Journals.
The SPEAKER said, the fact of the Petition
being withdrawn must be entered gro their Journals.
But be apprehended a short notice would be a sufb-
ent record that the Petition was withdrawn by con-
sent Of the House.
Mr. WYNN said, that he would most strongly
object to such charges as the Petition contained
against individuals should be recorded on the Jour.
nals of the Homo., without the parties having either
the power of defending themselves, or proving the
falsehood of the charge.—tficer
The Petition was then withdvawn.
RRITISH MUSEUM.
Mr. BANK'S presented i Pellagra from thehe
Trustees of the British Museum, compiiinlog of
inadequacy of their fonds, and preying for Parlia-
mentary oid.—Ordered to lie on the table.
On the motion of Mr. BANKES Accounts veto,
ordered. to he laid before the House of the Incomol,
and Elpenditere of the British Miseem down to the,
leer 1817 ; of the charges of the Museum in the year'
'1818; end of the number of persons admitted to
ralew it &Wing the fast seven years.
sCOCCH CMIIIIIIISIOSERS,
Lord A. HAMILTON, parsoont to notice, moved
that an humble Address should be presented to his
Royal Highness the Prince Regent, praying that be
would be pleased to order to be laid before the

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State to.. ... . .-- ----
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pediency ot filling up any office; and also Copies of
Letters, or the substance of similar Commetvisall spec
from any Commissary,' or Commissary's Clerk, of
the said Courts.
Mr. BRAGG BATHURST said there ittirt!-- lie
such specs as the Nokle Lord required raltd Ili
hoped that was a sufficient answer to his mcdietn.--
On all the grounds that he had stated, beheld that the
motion could not be agreed to.
After some conversation between Sir J. Newport,
Mr. W. Dundis, and Mr. J. P. Grant, the Molten
was negatived without a division.
FORoKitIES ON THE HANK.
Sir J. MACINTOSH said, he rose, agremffile to
notice, to move that a Committee be appointed to en-
`quire quire into the means of mere effectually pretentiog
' forgesies on the Bank of Eogland—end to report
their opinion thereon to the House. He could assure
Gentlemen, that, until he had that moment learned
the determination of PM@ peritons (whose sentiments
on this subject had, he conceived, too mach weight
jwlth the House) to oppose this motion, he could
ricarcely persuade himself that any serious objection
would be offered to it. Ile could scarcely believe,
after the progress made in that enquiry in ohich they
'had embarked, that any opposition would be given to
present the Legislature from coming to that smolt, to
which all the previous Bums they had taken manifestly
tended. In the last discussion, connected with this
'ito'bject, a very important principle was established—
end an argument, which bad long been triumphantly
seed by the Bank of England, was directly over-
veled. The Bank could no longer, after that de:
&don, declare that their accounts and tbelr affairs
were those of a private Company, into which Parlia-
ment had ne right to esquire. That pretence, flimsy
as it was, bad been tenaciously adhered to by
the Bank, until it was overturned by the last dis-
cussion. It seemed to him doubtful whether the
'Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Es-
'chequer) had made op his mind to grant the
1 judicial details connected with one of the greatest
evils that ever afflicted the country, until be found
the sense of the House decidedly opposed to
him. And after what he had seen, he had but little
doubt, that, if the independent individuals, who
had delivered their sentiments on the former occa-
sion, would now come forward, it the same manner,
the Ministers of the Crown would be warned not to
provoke a division, which would terminate in their
defeat, as he was perfect certain the last would have
done, if they had called for it. It had been admitted
in the course of more then one dissuasion, that the
magnitude of the evil was such as to call for imme-
diate enquiry. The investigation had been pushed to
a certain point—documents had been called for from
the Bank—anti the general sense of the House had
been loudly expressed on the propriety of finding out
some means for the mitigation of the evil. Few !ob-
jects had excited such a general interest in the Minds
of the Public a large—inithe minds of the Most quirk
part of society—in the minds of those who took the
least part in the discussion of political subjects. It
appeared, itidevd, to be a most momentous question,
when they came to esamine the documents illustrative
of it. In the course of twelve years, preceding the .
stoppage of cash payments, but one execution for
the forgery of Bank-notes occurred. Forgery was
then one of the rarest offences io the record of
crimes. What followed ? In the course of the last
seven years, one hundred and one persons had suf-
fered for that offence.—pear, hear, hear !)—Au.
other comparison, equally striking and horrible,
might be instituted. One instance only of execu-
tion for forgery of Bank notes was to be found in
the twelve years preceding the restriction on cash
payments—and, in the last seven years, no less than
forty four had taken place for that offence in Lon-
don and Middlesex alone. Forgery stood at the
head of the list of capital offences. The number of
persons esecoted for that crime greatly exceeded
"those who suffered for murder—it was far beyond
the proportion of persons executed for the nest great
offence, burglary—and it absolutely doublet! the
' number of these who forfeited their lives for taking
property by force and violence. This was thiresult
on which he rested, and which he implored the House
to consider. He implored them to think, whether
they ought not, by a Committee of their own, &rite
means, if not to remove (that be feared could only
be done by the resumption of caeca yments), t
a
least to mitigate the evil. lie irapi to con-
sider how they could answer to their consciences and
their constituents, if they neglected this duty—lf,
deceived by any specious pretence, they transferred
that ditty to others, which the House of Commons
owed it to the People of England to perform them-
SPitol.—(llear!)—in every point of view the sub-
ject was appalling. New horrors seemed to sur-
round it on every side. Let 0.4. House look to the
result, drawn from documents laid before them. The
Returns of the number of prosecutions for Bank
Forgeries in the years 1816, 1817, and three months
of 1818, had been made up—and the increase would
bid defiance to belief, if it were not founded on the
most authentic evidence. The most extraordinary
circumstance was, that, in the last three months, the
evil bad increased to so dreadful an extent, that if it
went on in any thing iike the same ratio, the prose-
cutions in 1818 would be,three times greater than
those which occurred in 1817—the last being the
worst year ever before knnen. He perceived •,that
some Returns of considerable importance had yester-
day been presented, and amongst theta a Reims* '4f
'the espeocea incurred deo Bank of England is
Its" inweecations. W bar alluded to them. be
)14
---r v.
did not mesa to say ti. invidious or IteCONAIIIII,
of the Bank of Es& * merely called ass**.
/*Mina of Gertiti *tly which ibis iiiatete
_
sod its conseqee Bolt Itosso. Omrisig
the first few yetwei ~,4 0 of cash tar
teems, the tlpettcy,
.14 ' '
~ 'll';'4lis mill •••• ilia
Ili bad increaaeirwomko i,', v Jo the last year tim
prosecutions ftrild
-6,4 140001., and, In the
411_ontas a dt• t tin Ai Ike Rouse SO4 i
Aka of Iheimpid ~ eats gioltradsieetWe which the evil
bad taken), the expense amounted to near 20,0001.
The general average or the ezpeoce, struck him with
estouishment. The general 'verity, for prosecuting

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each individual, wet 2631.—[hear'.] ,--This appear.
ed to him to he g monstrous and an alarming circum-
stance. Taking the average of single years, it was
greater ; but the general average was 2651. for the
conviction of each person. lie did not mention this
as a charge against the Bank, but as a corrohorat. ;,.
ing proof that the House ought to do its dutyt
and investigate, to the last, this pernici 'us s}s•
tem, instead of suffering the invertioinn tá
devolve upon others. In the last returns, the for.
' genies exhibited Ira" circumstance ettremely sin.
.gular. In the course of the last three years. the
'forgeries, tvii:ch were formerly confined to mini(
'orates, had climbed to those of larger amount. The
skill and experience of those who had emh•arito I ill
the forgery of small notes,' had excited thing MI
,Imitate those of much larger amount. In c 'use.
queries of this circumstance, he was afraid. even it
tests payments were resumed, that a conshilhavisf ,
:Ingle
ofm usitireitleapsiewltseesf.ore an end was
el
iteehad
dt thetactbaadaint'it`
orgu
shown, that severity of punishment, even the for.t
feitore of life, bad no effect in repressing this evil-4
The temptation was so great, that the fear of Milt
did not .prevent persons from embarking in thitr
traffic. He had often stated this from his own 40
, s A
sersatieu_and ne woein, now fortify '1).1 sistemeni
by quelisg the words of the Lord Chief Bareni
when' nronouricing sentence of death. at the late
Laticaller Assizes, on several peones *he built's'a
bound, guilty of forging shrill nowt. That Looms
ed Judge; in addressing the convicts, said, •' It
is evident that previous punishments have bad nci
effect in checking this crime, for all your offences
have been committed since the list As.izea; and, • ns
less some other means be devised to put an end to it
we must proceed to the utmost eilverity of the law'}
The Learned Judge, as a Minister of the law, could
not avoid, however painful it mieht be to his feel•
ings, the performance of the duty which his situatiouf ae
imposed on him. But, by the parenthesis which he
used, when he said, " unless some other mode be
devised," he seemed to implore the Legislature td
..
relieve him and his brethren from the horrible task
which now so often devolved upon thsm. The fre.
quency of capital punishments for this crime, to use
the words of the Petition from Liverpool on this sub•
ject—" made our laws hateful to foreigners, and
tended to destroy the sound moral feelings of the
People. It made the administration of justice odious
instead of awful—and rendered those who were con.
demned to death objects of fellow- feeling, and al•
most of affection." It nes no wonder they should
receive such a Petition from the town of Liverpool,
the county of Lancaster being one of those districts
in which forgeries most generally prevailed. To
that Petition, so remarkable fur the soundness of the
principles laid 'down in it, and for the perspicuity
with which they were stated, he begged to call di
particular attention of the House.—[the Leauusi
Gentleman here read the Petition presented from the
town of Lancaster, a few evenings since, calling 01
the House to enquire into the mean* of i.reventing
the Forgery of Bank of England N•ates--and Profess-
ing their determination, if 'nen prayer was it,“ c ,re...
plied With, to institute country henks. the eote is
seed from which were rarely forged.l.-Lt"..rp. lA.
continued •the • Learned Gentleman, *as the second
commer• ial town in the empire—anti, at a moonlit of
merchants, comprising gentle.i.ers of all opruions--a
meeting at which- many of the supporters of 'he
Right Hon. Gentleman took an active part it
*as
agreed, if some remedy were nor devi.ed, that Le.
course should be had to Country Baas A Pouliot
coming from such a place ought to have great weight
with the House. The merchants of than town, since
the unfortunate failures of (703, had favoured the
paper of the Bank of iforglsird to such a degree, that
country banks were almost entirely banished. But
such was their sense of this greet evil, that they had
overcome their prejudice, end declared, if it were
not mitigated, that they would have recourse to
country banks. When such a body called on the
House of Commons, as the Great Council of the Na.
Lion, to discuss this point—when they said, that to
remove the evil, they would give up Bank of England
notes—the House of Commons could not, with its.
'trinity to its character, refuse to attend to their ob.
serrations. lie felt himself more seriously impressed
with the importance of this question, in conseq•eace
of having read the summary, prepared at the floats
Office, of the state of tattle for the last seven refl.
It was a most melancholy Statement. It showed co
increase of crime which to real well• wisher of the
country could see withrilit the de'pest regret end
alarm. No account of defeat is War—no bighting
'of the failure of anaece--could affect a versos who
knew the tree foundation of national greatnessoo
much as this shocking detail. It appeared from it,
that the number of capital executions (and every
thing else corresponded), from 1805 to 1811,
amqunted to 380—and from 1811 to 1818, to 580 t
being one.eighth of the number of persons me.
demned to capital punishment. So that the re-
turns afforded a correct standard of the rate of
iebn:cdirsetia.istet
lßeousftp
iicrimetribt,yanniodn
mw I England.inchi coe 1
could scarcely
followed, i i e
tdbiadttthi:et
ide:lu
to argue, that the quantity of crime in a country 015
a fair criterion of its morals. Countries, where Ito
People were possessed of great energies—where spe-
culations were numerous—where temptations in cos'co
seqeence abounded—were, of' course, charscierifed
by a greater degree of crime than those nations whifh
Morals of the litter were superior to those of the
farmer ; the contrary was, perhaps, the fact. How'
'liver that Might be, the increase of crime, in the owe
,ielig
lotion, most be considered a proper standard for
ing of the wane of morality. He should say, 0
a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had done on I
former occasion, that the unfortunate change in thE
morality of the People of England, seemed to OW
*her from political causes than from that resolutPes
in. their character to which they had been someti
inferred. Vaciiniew-of wsges,ilectuation in the Arid
tel estOlmodAitVgircumstances connected with tion,_
onlotenne or, traktieleala•rtihle paper money, yid°
mode the 00ellt"sod simple, observing aori
sages, wrtitimitshetsti able to &scribe any cantsfor_
es* imegine•lheir fortunes were the sport of 106°
Jetiligna ienin, end caused them to assume aOP
racier averse, Jo. industry—a gambling character'
which they were taught-by the vicissitudes of 11
war—by nu unexpected peace—and by that winerratlibvit
scoerges !bat could bee: a ntifion, nit incon

THF. SI'ATESMAN
1 ..
of such an-enqeiry wait obriOus, and lestild that liouwe-Copy of any Letter., of the substance of vpy
Ministers'would not (*poi* ill, Hetarostd add; that Communication that might hare been 'snide -by 'the
&sr-Petition was neeedjikerfrepPatil ; iwrltaps,hin. Conwoisiioners for enquiring into the duties sad em-
deed, the most so he bed ewer had the bonnet to pre. ployments of the Offices
of
Clerks of Coerts in
vent. - It wee from a greas-potitiesi-oreiiereurise heal ilsoilendvet .hy aeywniof them, to the Secretary -of
- I- 1.... 'ha remain, when the State for the Home Department, relative to the Inez-
. ___ _ -...1 cal•r• Ironton Of