The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-03-04 00:00:00

THE FIRE POLICE

The following letter was also read in the proceedings :
" Liverpool Fire and Life Insurance Co.,
Water-street, 7th Feb., 1842.
" Sir,—l have pleasure in informing you that the attention
of the Directors of this Company having been called to the
efficient services rendered by the foreman, Mr. John Hewitt,
and the men acting under him, at the tire in Thomas's ware-
house, Frederick-street, they expressed their strong sense of
the value and importance of that body,, and, with a desire to
encourage a continuance of the exertions which on that oc-
casion was so signally made, they have instructed me to
transmit to you the sum of £2O 2s. 6d., which they will be

obliged by your distributing as follows :
" To Mr. John Hewitt, £5; 13 firemen, each lOs ; 7 fire-
men, each 7s. 6d. ; 40 firemen, each 3s.
" It is the wish of the Directors to mark their apprecia-
tion of the energy and success with which the excellent ar-
rangements of the Fire Police are now carried out, and at the
same time specially to acknowledge and reward the efforts
and determination of those men who were present on the oc-

casion in question.
" I have the honour to be, sir, with much respect, your
very obedient servant,
(Signed) " SWINTON BOULT, Secretary.
" To James Lawrence, Esq., Chairman of the Watch
Committee of the Liverpool Town Council."
Mr. PROCTER moved that the proceedings of the Watch
Committee be confirmed, with the exception of the publicans'
clause, on which the Council had already decided ; and that
the report of the Watch Committee on the police establish-
ment and the state of crime in the borough, with the tabular
returns, be printed, and that a copy be sent to each member

of the council and the magistrates for the borough or county,
and that the Mayor be requested to transmit a copy to the
Right Hon. the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
Mr. THORNHILL seconded the motion. _ _ _

The proceedings were confirmed, with the exception of the
clause respecting the publicans, upon which the council had
previously determined

MARKETS' COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Markets' Committee, comprising,
the increase of the salary of the superintendent of St. James's
Market, from £l5O to £l7O per annum, the consideration of
which had been postponed at the council, on the sth January
last, pursuant to the standing orders, were next read.
Mr. JOHN SMITH moved their confirmation.

ToumurN moved, as an amendment, that the salary
of Mr. Luya, the superintendent, be continued at its present
amount, £l5O.

Mr. PARKER seconded the amendment. He said he was
prepared to prove that considerable perquisites were attached
to the office of superintendent... (Cries of " Name.") He
wished, those gentlemen who cried " name" would answer
him the question, whether the sweepings of the markets went
to the corporate fund ?
Mr. HENRY HOLMES said that the sweepings had been a
perquisite ever since the establishment of the market.
Mr. PARKER. said the sweepings of St. John's Market had
been to the amount of £3O or £4O per year.
Mr. EARLE said the council had just heard a splendid
speech on a heap of muck: (Laughter.) They had heard a
vast deal of bombastic language on a heap of muck. (Con-

tinued laughter.)
Air. PARKER.—If it be a heap of muck, and you get on
it. you will be the cock of the midden. (Great laughter.)

Mr. EAGLE said he was very sorry if he had touched a

tender part.
Mr. SMITH said no reason had been shown why Mr. Luya's
salary should not be advanced.

The council divided, when there appeared—

For the motion

Against it

34
10
-21

Majority
The increase of the salary from £l5O to £l7O per annum

was accordingly agreed to, and the proceedings were con-
• •

tinned. The following members voted for the division :
For the motion—Messrs. I. Holmes, R. Houghton, Thorn-
hill, Preston, Sandbach, Edwards, Barton, Blundell, H.
Holmes, Mellor, J. Holmes; Bolton, Aikin, Bright, Priestley,
Yates, Rigby, J. Smith, G. H. Lawrence, Jordan, Platt, A.
Smith, jun., Mather, Holt, Bulley, Freme, Evans, Barclay,
Earle. Moon, Houghton, Turner, and the Mayor.
Against it—Messrs. Shaw, Shand, Copeland, Toulmin,
Robinson, Wood, Bitkett, Parker, Molyneux, and Crook.

TOWN-HALL' ESTABLISHMENT COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Town-hall Establishment Com-
mittee, comprising the/appointments of David Morris, as
messenger, vice Robert Hurley, resigned, and of Robert
Hurley, as porter, in the vestibule of the Town-hall, the
consideration of which stood postponed at the council on the
sth January last, pursuant to the standing orders, were next
read and confirmed.

EDUCATION COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Education Committee, comprising
the appointments of
,Mr. Robert Stone, as superintendent of
the corporation schools, and Mr. James Lees, as second
master, were read.

Mr. MOLYNEUX, chairman of the committee, moved the

confirmation of the proceedings.
Mr. EARLE said he was not so squeamish as some others in
objecting to the proceedings of committees. He regretted

thi'd more of the inembers Of the Education Committee were

not in their places, because he wished to make some remarks
on their proceedings, in the hope that the council would see
the necessity of not confirming a portion of them. The main
objection to the schools formerly was, that they had not given
a strictly Scriptural education. ' So far as the Catholics were
concerned it might be doubtful whether such an education
had been given; but to the Protestant children he maintained
that they had given an excellent and deep-rooted Scriptural
education. It appeared from the proceedings that the com-
mittee were determined not to have any more apprentices,
and the Town-clerk was of opinion the present apprentices

could be tranblerred to the head masters.
The TOWN-CLERK.—I say they are bound to do so by the

terms of the indentures

Mr. EARLE was of opinion that, under such circumstances,
efficient masters ought to be employed. The committee had
clearly told them, however, that the apprentices who did not
wish to he transferred, might take their indentures ; and was

this justice? The apprentices had been heretofore bound to
people who were capable of instructing them in the art of

teaching, and if the committee employed incapable persons
they could not bind the apprentices over to them. He flat-
. ,

tered himself he should be' able to show that the individual

now appointed had great need of instruction himself, and
that he was not fit for the situation. Then, what was to be
done with the Catholic apprentices, who had been bound to
people not compelled to oblige them to read the author-
ised version of the Scriptures? Could the committee bind
them to masters or mistresses who would usurp this power?
He should be glad to get an answer on this point. He
charged the committee with appointing inferior persons to the
vacant situations. They had appointed Mr. Lees the school-
master of St. Michael's Church. He supposed the funds there
were rather low, for Mr. Lees had brought all his scholars with
him en masse to the corporation schools, and St. Michael's
was given up. This was what the committee called extend-
ing education. The most serious charge he had to bring
against the committee was the appointment of Mr. Stone.
He understood that this individual had passed some of his
later years in an attorney's office, and that he had the expe-
rience of teaching children at Mr. M`Neile's Sunday school.
He had formerly been with the Rev. C. W. Richards, who
was formerly at Edge-hill, and who took him as a sort of an
apprentice. The indentures did not say what he was, but
simply that he had conducted himself with propriety. They
also spoke of his having learned the higher branches of lite-
rature at Lichfield. He (Mr. Earle) believed that Lees had
been brought up at the Blue Coat Hospital. Mr. Earle went
on to say that no fewer than 9 candidates had applied for
the situation, and that Lees had been appointed in preference
to any of them. He said he had written to nine of them,
and procured their testimonials, in order that the council
_should know what their qualifications were. Mr. Earle here
quoted from a memorandum, containing marks opposite the
names of the candidates, which was saino be the private
memorandum of a member of the Education Committee.

He also quoted a letter written by Mr. Some to the Educa-
cation Committee, enclosing, testimonials from Dr. Tatter-
shall and the Rev. Hugh Wisleile, and said that it contained
ungrammatical expressions. In continuation, he said, he
should be glad taknow the reason why the Education Com-

mittee had to the resolution of excluding the Northern
Mechanics' Institution from the corporation schools, and
concluded by moving as an amendment, " That Mr. Stone's
appointment be not confirmed."
Mr. Alderman BARCLAY seconded the amendifieht.

Mr. PAIIKER said it would be perfectly impossible for him
to follow Mr. Earle through his long and rambling address ;
and if Mr. Earle had used language less strong than that
which he had, he (Mr. Parker), knowing-his character in this
respect, should have been much disappointed. It should he
recollected that Mr. Earle stood pledged to the public and to
the council, that so long as he had a seat in that chamber, he
would oppose the proceedings of the Education Committee,
—no matter what they might be—and every thing they brought
forward. Ile, therefore, was not surprised at the course Mr.
Earle had thought proper to take on this occasion, nor at his
having, on his own statement of facts drawn the conclusions
from them which he had just laid before the council. The
_ _

Education Committee consisted of fifteen gentlemen ; and no
proceeding could be passed but by a majority of those fifteen ;

consequently, there must have heen a majority of eight to
have adopted the recommendation which had been read. (A
Vorce—', No, no, five.") 'Well, suppose it was five, then
Mr. Earle stood in the position of putting forward his
individual opinion in contradiction to that of the majority of
the committee upon a subject which they had most maturely
considered.
Mr. EARLS.—But there are the testimonials, you know.
Mr. PARKER was aware of the testimonials, and of the
manner in which Mr. Earle had obtained possession of those
private memoranda which he had read.
Mr. EARLE.—Prodigious !
Mr. PARKER, in continuation, said that Mr. Earle had a
habit of very often finding fault with gentlemen for not
having the best way of expressing themselves; but in his
opinion the manner in which the good taste of Mr. Earle
had led him to express himself on this occasion, clearly
showed that at least he was not wanting in " modest as-
surance." It was no trifling thing for the gentlemen who
had been selected for the purpose to carry out the wishes of
the council with regard to the education of the poor; and it
was no modest assertion, and no modest act to bring those
gentlemen forward before the council with an accusation.
Mr. Alderman FREME here made some reference to the
Market Committee, which was not beard at the reporters'
table. _ _ _
_ _

Mr. PARKER said he would not be interrupted by Mr.
Freme or any one else whilst he was addressing the council.
Whenever he addressed the council they might depend he .
would treat the chair with proper respect, and he should like
to see Mr. Freme always doing the same. If Mr. Freme had
any remark to make now, he (Mr. Parker) would listen toit.
Mr. FREYIE said all that he wanted to say was this, that
Mr. Parker had just now opposed the proceedings of the
Market Committee in their proposal to increase Mr. Luya's
salary ; and that Mr. Earle had an equal right to oppose the
proceedings of the Education Committee.
Mr. PARKER, in reply said that he spoke for the chairman
of the Market Committee who was against the proposal,
and if he lhd not been in ill health, he would himself have
expresEed his opinion. But Mr. Earle attacked the Educa-
tion Committee one time after another without the slightest
reason for it. It there were anything bad or wrong in their
conduct, let him or any other gentleman move for an
enquiry, but it was most unfair for any one to be continually
attacking a body of gentlemen in the way Mr. Earle had
attacked the Education Committee. He (Mr. Parker)
should not go through the Qualifications of the candidates,
but be would go into the general question. Mr.• Parker
then contended that the principle of the schools was to give •
a solid and useful education. and an education based upon
sound scriptural principles ; and in conclusion he warmly
defended the system pursued in the Blue Coat School. Ile
should vote for the confirmation of the proceedings.
Mr. BULLEY thought it his duty to set himself right before
the public, by stating that he had been no party to the pro-
ceedings of the Education Committee which were just read,
and that he had not been present at the time of Mr. Stone's
appointment,
Mr. EVANS considered that Mr. Earle had established the
clearest case of the Committee of Education having preferred .
the inferior to the superior candidate.
Mr. PRIESTLEY said that as he had • been passive in the
committee upon the subject of Mr. Stone's appointment, he
should refrain from voting in the council on the question.
Mr. SANDBACII, as a member of the Education Committee,
was quite prepared to take his full share of responsibility,
and to justify. the recommendations which that committee had
made to the council. Perhaps that might sound rather bold
in the ears of his friend Mr. Earle.
Mr. EARL-E.—lndeed it does.
Mr. SANDBACII, in continuation, said the Education Com-
mittee felt conscious they had pursued a proper course, and
he thanked Mr. Earle for the pains that gentleman had taken
to acquaint himself of their proceedings, and for the labour
he had been at in writing to no fewer than nine individuals,
besides prying into the private memoranda of one of the com-
mittee. He thanked him for all this, because the more their
conduct was sifted the more would the proceedings of the
Education Committee appear right to the council. Mr.
Earle had found fault with four points specially,•although he
concluded his amendment by referring to one only--
Mr. EARLE.—OnIy one at present.
Mr. SANDBACII could not pretend to follow Mr. Earle in
all that he had chosen to say, but he would endeavour to
enter a little upon the merits of each of the points that he
had raised. The first was, that the apprenticeship system
had been discontinued, and Mr. Earle objected to that. Now
he (Mr. Sandbach) begged the council to judge the question
on its own merits, and not be led away by the impression
which seemed to have been raised that the apprenticeship
system had been abolished because it had been established
by a former committee. It was no such thing.. The system
had been adopted only as an experiment ; and he had been
told that even the members of the committee who introduced
it were not agreed upon it. It was always a question in com-
mittee whether monitors or apprentices were best, and, there-
fore, they put both systems in practice. The present com-
mittee were called upon to decide whether one or two chil-
dren, who were in the schools upon trial, should be made
apprentices or not; and, therefore, the committee had to
decide the question whether the apprenticeship system should
be continued or not. They took every pains to inform them-
selves upon the question ; they consulted those in authority,
namely, the masters and mistresses. He did not knoW what
was the opinion of the masters who were leaving on this sub-
ject—and he did not think their opinion of much importance,
• because they were leaving—but he could tell the council, that
the mistresses were decidedly of opinion that the apprentice-
ship system was a great evil. He would tell the council

why. When the indentures were once signed, the appren-
tices were subject to no controul ; they went and came just
when they pleased ; and, in short, there was no power to
oblige them to opine.
Mr. BARCLAY said that was a strange thing. What were
the terms of the indentures? (Cries of " Chair.")
Mr. SANDBACIf repeated that it was so. When they were
there, the master set them to instruct a class ; but they could
go and come when they pleased. Sometimes they were ill,
and made all sorts of excuses ; so that they really were not
efficient. Now the view of the education committee was,
that the monitorial system had all the advantages of the ap-
prenticeship system without its disadvantages. It brought
up poor boys and girls to be teachers, and to render all the
assistance in the schools that apprentices could. The only
objection to the monitorial system was this—that as soon as
the monitors had made a certain progress in their studies,

they could obtain a certain salary in other schools, and there-
fore thee were apt to leave. But all who made.this objection
admitted that it you gave to monitors the same wages that

you gave to apprentices, they would not think of leaving.
The apprentices had a rate of wages paid .to them, varying
from three shillings to seven shillings per week, whilst the
monitors were paid in quite a different manner : they
_

were paid only or 4d.-, or something of that sort, the

exact :Amount lie did not know, but, at ail events, every one
admitted, that if the monitors were paid the same rate of
wages as the apprentices, there would be no danger of their
leaving. The Education Committee therefore concluded,
that the monitorial system was better than the apprentice-
ship system, and upon that account, they recommended the
council not to continue the apprenticeship system beyond
the time which they were obliged to do. With regard to
the transfer of the appretices from the old masters to
the new ones, that was a matter of course, when the recent

changes were made, and the resolution of the committee

was, that if the parent of any apprentice objected to the
transfer, the committee would be willing to cancel the in-
dentures; and this course was meant to meet the point which

Mr. Earle complained of, that the committee were going to

compel Catholic apprentices to serve Protestant masters.
The committee had no wish to do anything of the kind, and
therefore, they said to parents, " if you object to this trans-
fer, we are ready to cancel the indentures." With regard to

Mr. Stone, he would say a few words, Mr. Earle had stated,
that Mr. tone was in the school at the time when he be.
came a candidate. True, he was ; he had been appointed a
temporary master; and the council must bear in mind
the difficulties of the position in which the Education
Committee were placed. They were left with masters
who refused to work the schools on the principles which
the council had adopted. What were they to do then
in such a case ? He wished to avoid saying anything that
might appear harsh or personal, but he must state that those
masters were not likely to conduct the schools satisfactorily

to the committee ; and the committee resolved that they
would, until they could make their permanent arrangements,
obtain the best temporary assistance that they could. They
obtained Mr. Stone and Mr. Jones—one for each school—
until their arrangements could be made ; but their arrange-
thents were not yet made—they were only in,progress—and
it was rather unusual, be thought, to be told that the system
which the Education Committee had established, was not
successful before it had been tried. He made till's explana-
tion only to account for Mr. Stone being in the school at the

time he applied for the situation of superintendent. Fcr that
office it was a fact that a vast number of applications had
been sent in ; there were not less than ninety-five, which
showed that the advertisement bad been sufficiently pub-
lished.
_He supposed Mr. Earle would admit that ?

. .
Mr. EARLE.--Aye.
Mr. SANDBACH.—And when all these applications were
sent in, a sub-committee was appointed to read them.

Mr. EARLE.—And they weeded out all the best.
Mr. SANDBACH : that however was done. The best, pos-
sibly all those to whom Mr. Earle had referred, were selected
to choose from, and finally the'committee wrote to a certain

number of thoe whom they thought most likely, in order to
see them personally. They did see them, and they ap-
pointed Mr. Stone unanimously. He (Mr. Sandbach) was

not present upon that occasion, but he should have voted
for Mr. Stone had he been there, for he thought his testi-
monials, notwithstanding the slur which Mr. Earle had

attempted to throw upon them, strong ones for the purpose
the committee wanted. But Mr. Earle, in discussing this
matter, had raised a question as to the precise sort of person
that the committee wanted. Many of those whose testimo

nials Mr. Earle had got were clergymen of the Church of
England

Mr. EARLE : And many not.
Mr. SANDBACR would like to know whether the corpora-
tion of Liverpool would like to• have seen a clergyman of
the Church of England, or a man of very high attainments,
in a situation like that the committee had offered? This,
therefore, excluded at once a certain number—four or
five

Mr. EvANs.—Admitting what you wanted, you could not
have done better than have a clergyman of the Church of
England.

Mr. SANDBACW continued. Mr. Evans, in his address to
the council, had intimated that Mr. Stone had been ap-
pointed because he had a flock of scholars to come with him ;
but the fact was he had no scholars, therefore that argument
was not in point. He wished the council to understand that
he fully concurred in the appointment of Mr. Stone, and he
had every confidence that he would give a fair trial to the
system of having one head-master over the whole, which had
been adopted in order to obviate some difficulties that there
were in the old system. from there being no uniformity. He
left to others the duty of justifying that, and he should pro-
ceed to the next point upon which Mr. Earle had touched,
namely, the appointment of third masters. Mr. Earle bad
spoken of their handwriting; he Would request gentlemen to
look at this (producing some specimens.) His own opinion
was that it was a great deal better than Mr. Earle himself
could write. (Laughter.)

Mr. EARLE.—That I know.
Mr. SANDBACH would be quite content if the children in
the schools were able to write as well as that. The schools
which had been alluded to as being now closed, were schools
that had been established at. the time a reform corporation
altered the system of education. They were opened at the
time by private charity, and they had been maintained by
private charity for the benefit of the children who had been
excluded from the corporation schools; the necessity for
more schools having now ceased, the source from whence
they were maintained ceased to flow. Whether the children
who had gone to those schools now came to corporation
schools or not, he knew not ; but he believed that some went
to the Church of England schools, and some to the Corpo-
ration schools. With regard to the fitness of the mas-
ters, that question must be settled by considering what
kind of education was to be given, and probably on
that subject .he should be -rat- issue—witb— Mr.. Earle.
He did not think that the children educated in the
corporation schools should be taught the higher branches
of classics or mathematics; a plain education, he thought,
was the best. He wished to have produced the rules
for the government of the .schools under the reformed
corporation and to have them read, for some specimens of
English in them might perhaps amuse Mr. Earle, as he was
somewhat choice on that subject. Among them it would be
found that provision was to be made for teaching things which
were quite unsuited to the nature of such an institution, such
as the higher branches of mathematics, the classics, the de-
rivation of words, and so on. Now the Education Committee
conceived that a man capable of teaching systematically large
numbers of scholars, and of giving a plain education, was the
man whom they wanted. Then with regard to Mr. Earle's•
last objection—namely, the exclusion of mechanics from the
Northern School, he would ask the Town-clerk to read .the
resolution which first gave permission for them to occupy
that school.
The TOWN-CLERK then read the resolution of the council,
of the 7th August, 1839, upon the memorial of certain me-
chanics, engineers, and others, for the use of the North
School as a Mechanics' Institution, and also the memorial.
It appeared that the council gave power to the Education
Committee to comply with this memorial upon such condi-
tions and for such time as might be convenient.
Mr. SANDBACH in continuation said, the use of the pre-
mises had been granted subject to the limitations which the
Council had heard read, namely, so long as it was found con-
venient, and the committee were empowered when it was
found inconvenient to put an end to the grant. Now the
convenience of it depended very much upon the number of
the mechanics, and the time required, also upon another cir-
cumstance, of which perhaps the Council were not aware.
The masters of the north school were. masters of the Me-
chanics' Institution ; but that was no longer the case ; it
was a circumstance that could not occur again, because the
present committee had taken care to stipulate that for the
whole services of the master, considering that it was impos-
sible for any man to do justice to the school unless he de-
voted his whole energy to it. The committee had continued
that school under great disadvantage, on account of the en-
gagements of Messrs. Nelson and Taafe, in teaching classes
in the evening. And what compelled the decision of the
committee was the advertisements and the bills which Mr.
Earle had just held up, from which it would be seen that the
Mechanics' Institution bad quite deviated from the original
intention for which the use of the school was granted to them.
Instead of teaching mechanics and young men science and all
kinds of knowledge, the object now was amusement, dances
and masquerades. •
Mr. EARLE.—Dances and masquerades !
Mr. SANDBACH.—If you will read those bills, I think you
will find something of that kind.
Mr. EARLE.—I do not think I shall find that.
Mr. SANDBACH.—At any rate they have deviated from
the terms upon what the original grant was made.
Mr. EARLS.—That may be.
Mr. SANDBACH said it was because the committee consi-
dered it inconsistent with the character of the corporation
schools, and quite unsuitable in itself to permit such pro-
ceedings, that they had decided it was inexpedient to con-
tinue the use of the school to the mechanics' institution.
Mr. AIKIN warmly defended the.objects of the Northern
Mechanics' Institution, and said that all the entertainments
there were, eminently calculated to elevate the minds and
'improve the habits of the poor in that district.
• Mr. PLATT said that Mr. Hodgson and Mr. Molyneux
had taken the pains of examining the testimonials of the 93
candidates, and reducing them to eight or ten. From that
selection the committee had reduced them, to five. Great
regard was paid to the situations which sevetal'of the appli;
cants filled in other places, and the committee wished not to
bring them to Liverpool and to elect them to offices where
their'remuneration would not be equal to what they were re-
ceiving elsewhere. The fact was they had misunderstood
the advertisement in the paper. Whan it came to the elec-
.tion of the masters, he (Mr. Platt) looked over the testimo-
nials of the five, and he proposed Mr. Stone, a proposition
which was unanimously carried. (Hear, hear.) He had
also proposed Mr. Lees, who had very strong testimonials,
and who was also elected. He, therefore, took his share of
the responsibility so far as it went. He concluded by saying
that at the next meeting of the council he would propose
that two other schools be founded, one at the north and the
other at the south end of the town, where the children of
the lower classes would receive a good secular and moral
education, but no religious instruction. He .thought the
Northern Mechanics' Institution ought to have asked per-
mission before they proceeded to the lengths they had.
(Hear.)
Mr. SANDBACH begged to say that he was under a mis-
take when he said that dances and masquerades were carried
on in the Northern Mechanics' Institution.
Mr. BIRKETT looked upon this as a question of confidence
or no confidence in the committee. The council had re-
solved, in consequence of the feeling throughout the town on
the subject, to alter the system of education, and a commit-
tee had been empowered to carry their wishes out. Now,
that committee ought to have fair play. One day they were
attacked because there were no subscribers in the schools,
and another day they were attacked because the schools were
becoming too full ; so that empty or full they could not hope
to please the gentlemen on the adverse side. He would con-
trast the conduct of the present majority in the council when
they were a minority, with the conduct of the preeent
minority when they were a majority. No man was more
opposed to the system of education which then prevailed than
he was, but the conservative party contented themselves by
protesting against it, without attempting to interrupt the
carrying of it out. But what was the conduct of the present
minority ? Here they were attacking the new system time
after time, and indeed not losing the slightest opportunity of
doing so, although the result was the same, for the council,
as he hoped they would on this occasion, confirmed the pro:
ceedings. Mr. Evans, in his speech, had expressed an
opinion that the constituency should take this matter into
their own hands, and make a change on the very next oc-
casion. He (Mr. Birkett) could only say, for his part, that
if there was any one upon the side with whom he generally
acted who would shirk this question, or make it a party or
political question, he hoped the constituency would turn
them out. He had never made it one himself, for it was a
question, in his mind, of far greater moment. The Educa-
tion Committee, he repeated, had not bad fair play, but tina
more they were attacked the more would he extend to them
leis confidence, and if the rest of the conservative members

in the council would adopt his line of conduct the present
system of opposition would speedily cease. He felt con-
vinced that the radical party had been encouraged to carry
on their systematic attacks by lukewarm friends; but if the
conservatives acted as the town at large bad expressed, the
warfare would be at an end.

Mr. BOLTON condemned the appointment of Mr. Stone
in strong terms, and urged that the Saturday night amuse-
ments at the Northern Mechanics' Institution were of a most
innocent and instructive character.

Mr. TouNEtt wished to be informed whether any of the
candidates had made inquiries as to the nature of the duties,
or whether the chairman had taken. the trouble to write to
those who were of a superior character, and who had mis-
taken the nature of the situation for which they applied. In
most charitable institutions it was always customary to do
so.. It appeared to him that the superintendent of the schools
ought to he a person of abilities superior to the masters. Mr.
Stone might be a very good candidate for the situation of one
of the masters, but still he was less eligible for the office of
superintendent than others who had applied for it.
Mr. 'YATES and Mr. BRIG lIT supported the amendment.

Mr. HARBORD said he was one cif .the Education Commit-
tee, and willing to take his share of the blame if there was
any in this matter. With regard to the conduct of the com-
mittee relative to the north school they had taken the opi-
nion of the Town-clerk, whether the school was used by the
committee of the Mechanics' Institution for legitimate pur-
poses. The Town-clerk, after referring to the placards which
had been issued, stated that the committee were not justi-
fied in sanctioning or permitting anything of the sort, and
that they were empowered to prevent the use of the school as
a Mechanics' Institution, if it interfered with the education
to be imparted to children by the servants of the council.
Now there could be no doubt that, so long as a Mechanics'
Institution was held in the North School, it was a disadvan-
tage to the children. There was every disposition, as far as
the committee could see, in Mr. Nelson to thwart their in-
tentions ; therefore, in order to prevent coming into contact
with him, they deemed it prudent and right to get rid of that
establishment. With regard to Mr. Stone, he (Mr. Her-
bord) could
.not say that he was present when the appoint-
ment was made; but he had since shewn such assiduity,
willingness, and zeal, in complying with the requests of the
oommittee, that he trusted his qualifications would give sa-
tisfaction.

Mr. SANDS said, that, though his name was upon the
Education Committee, he had not had an opportunity of
attending it, having had other public duties to discharge as
chairman of the Dock Committee ; but, from the recom-
mendation he had had of Mr. Stone, he. should most likely
have voted for him. He would, however, give him a fair
trial; and if he were found not competent to discharge the
duties entrusted to him, then let him be removed.

Mr. MOLYNEUX then replied, and recapitulated all the
circumstances under which the Education Committee had
made the recommendation, and defended Mr. Stones' ap-
pointment, on the ground that, for the purpose the commit-
tee had in view, he was the most suitable man they could
find.

The.eouneil divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Aagainst,it .......

Majority
The amendment was .consequently lost. The following
members voted in the division :
For theramendment—Messrs. Thornhill, Preston, H.
Holmes, Mellor, J. Holmes, Bolton, Aikin, Bright, Yates,
Jordan, Mather, Holt, Bulley, Freme, Evans, Barclay,
Earle, Moon, and Turner.
_ _ _

Against itL--ifess;;.-Sliaw, Shand, R. Houghton, Sand-
bach, Copeland, Barton, Blundell, Sands, Toulmin, Cooper,
Wood, Birkett, Gladstone, Proctor, Rigby, Parker, G. H.
Lawrence, Platt, A. Smith, jun., Harboard, Houghton,
Nicol, Chilton, Molyneux, Crook, and the Mayor.
Mr. EARLE then moved another amendment, to the effect
that the appointment of Mr. Lees be not confirmed, and in
supp'brt of it, he delivered one of his usual orations. He
said it was evident from the' speech of Mr. Platt, that that
gentleman had been gulled. He. hoped Mr. Platt would in
future sleep with his eye open. If he (Mr. Earle) made use
of bombastic language, he hoped it would not be on a heap
of manure. He found that Mr. Birkett had been throwing
his shield over the Education Committee.

Mr. BIRKETT said he had the honour of representing some
ward of the town, at all events. He was not, like Mr. Earle,
a rejected alderman.

Mr. EARLE said that was a very good and clever reply.
He then praised Mr. Turner's conduct on this question.
Mr. To uLmiN. —Keep to the question.
Mr. EARLE.—Who calls " question." , It seems as if Mr.
Toulmin had been sent in here to cry " question."
Mr. TouLiam—l have cried "question" because you were
speaking nonsense." (Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
-Mr. Eat:l.E.—Then do you call " sense," Mr. Harbord—

'Mr. HARBORD.—I rise to order. If Mr. Earle chooses
to make himself a laughingstock for the members, within
doors, and for light-minded people out of doors, he has no
right to endeavour by every possible means to make others as
ridiculous and as ludicrous as himself. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. TOULMIN rose to order, and after again the Mayor
had interfered, Mr. EARLE concluded by proposing his
amendment.
Mr. AIKIN hoped Mr. Eagle would withdraw his amend-
ment in favour of the following one, which he (M r. , Aikin)
begged to move—namely, that the Education Committee
were not warranted in depriving the Northern Mechanics'
Institution of accommodation, and that that part of their
proceedings be not confirmed.
Mr. EARLE accordingly withdrew his amendment in favour
of the foregoing one.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE confessed that he did not approve
of twopenny conceits.
• Mr. PROCTER asked whether there was any resolution of
the council authorising the school to be held as a concert-
room ? _ _ _

The TOWN-CLERK replied in the negative.
Mr. AIKIN, with a view to bring about unanimity, con-
sented to withdraw the word " warranted" in his amendment.
He therefore worded it as follows :—" That that part of the
proceedings of the Education Committee depriving the North-
ern Mechanics' Institution of the use of the school-room, be
not confirmed."
Mr. MELLOR seconded the amendment.
The council then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment..
Against it 25
Majority
The amendment was consequently lost. The following
members voted in the division :
For the amendment—Messrs. Thornhill, Preston, H.
Holmes, Mellor, Bolton, Aikin, Bright, Yates, Jordan,
Bulley, Frerne Evans, Barclay, Earle, and Turner.
Against it---Messrs. Shaw,. Shand, R. Houghton,- Sand-
bach, Copeland, Barton, Blundell, Toulmin, Cooper, Wood,
Birkett, Gladstone, Procter, Rigby, Parker, G. H. Lawrence,
Platt, A. Smith, jun., Harbord, Houghton, Nicol, Chilton,
Molynenx, Crook, and the Mayor.
Mr. EvANs then moved the following amendment .—"That
the proceedings with respect to the Mechanics' Institution
be referred back to the committee, with instructions that they
are to take into consideration the propriety of continuing per-
mission to use the school as heretofore, for the purpose of
lectures and instruction only."

Mr. H. HoumEs seconded this amendment, and it was
unanimously adopted.
The council adjourned at five o'clock, to Wednesday next,
for the despatch of the remaining business.

MEETING OF THE DOCK COMMITTEE

The weekly meeting of the Dock Committee was held
yesterday. The following members were present. Messrs.
Sands, Horsfall, Barclay, Holt, Holmes, Middleton, Smith,
Nicol, Mellor, Bold, Moon, Martin, Ripley, Molyneux,
Evans, Aikin, Bulley, Shand, and SandbaCh. Mr. SANDS,
chairman of the committee, presided.

ADDITIONAL GRAVING DOCKS.
The SECRETARY read the following report from the Sur-
veyor, on the subject of additional Graving Dock accommo-
dation :

" I beg, in compliance with your instructions of Thursday
last, that I should consider, and report to you, what I con-
sider the most eligible situation for the construction of
Graving Dock accommodation upon the Dock estate,' to
state to you, that commencing with the south docks, I
know of no site whereon a graving dock can, with propriety,
be constructed, except upon the space of ground on the
north side of Coburg Dock, whereon one might be wade,
entering either from the Queen's Dock, or in continuation
of the present Queen's Graving Docks, or a steam Graving
Dock might be placed upon the same land, opening out of
the Coburg Dock, which would, in some respects, be exceed-
ingly convenient. There could, however, be only a sufficient
length for one large ship.
" The next site is the spare ground on the west side of
George's Dock, upon which a graving dock of considerable
capacity might be constructed, to be entered from George's
Basin. Against this site, however, there may be objections
brought, which I think cannot be overcome.
"-The third and last situation, and which I think the
least objectionable, is the ground occupied as slate yards, on
the east side of the Prince's Basin. On this site, two graving
docks might be constructed, of the same capacity as those
north of the Clarence Dock. Two designs, for thus laying out
the ground, are herewith produced, the one showing the
graving docks opening directly from the Prince's Basin, and
laying east and west, the other opening from out of an inter-
mediate wet basin, connecting both with the Prince's Basin
and Prince's Dock. In this the graving docks lay north and
south. This intermediate basin may, at any time, be run
dry, and having graving docks laid along three of its sides,
would, in a great degree answer the purpose of a third
graving dock."
Some desultory conversation on subject of this report took
place between Messrs. Evans, Mellor, Ripley, Shand, and
others, after which, the matter was referred, for a report
thereon, to the sub-committee of works.