The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-04-01 00:00:00

MEETING OF THE DOCK COMMITTEE.

The weekly meetingof the Dock 'Committee was held yes-
terday at twelve o'clock. The following members were
present :—Messrs. Sands (chairman), Mellor, Holmes, Moly-
neux, Martin, Holt, Bulley,`'Tobin,'Evans, Shand, Aikin,
Nicol, Ripley, Middleton, and Smith.
OPENING FROM PRINCE'S DOCK INTO QUEEN-STREET.

A report was presented from the Surveyor, to the effect
that the doorway which had been ordered to be opened in the
wall on the east side of Prince's Dock quay, opposite to
Queen-street, could not be made, without materially inter-
fering with the parapet, there being a difference of five feet
between the elevation of the ground on the different sides of
the wall.

Mr. IVIELLorz said he was very glad to find that the nature
of the ground would not allow of a door being made in the
wall, as he had always been opposed to it.
Mr. RIPLEY, on the other hand, said it would be a public
convenience, and it had been decided by a large majority of
the committee that the opening should be made.

Mr. MELLOR suggesteil thaCit would-i;;;;li-if, in future,
the committee would not adopt any alteration without taking
time to consider it. This matter had been casually decided
upon by the commitee upon the spur of the moment; but
he trusted, in future, that whenever any recommendations
were made they would not be decided upon immediately, but
referred to the Sub-committee.

TENDERS FOR SPERM OTT

The Sub-committee for the department of the Marine
Surveyor reported that the stock of sperm oil was getting
low • and they requested authority to issue circulars for
tenders to supply .1,500 gallons for the next half year.—
Ordered.
ACCIDENT TO TIIE NORTH-WEST LIGHT-SHIP-COMPARA-
TIVE MERITS OF IRON AND WOOD.
_ _ _

The MARINE SURVEYOR reported that between 12 and 1
o'clock, a.m., on Saturday last, the 26th instant (March),
there being a strong gale, a heavy sea struck the North-west
Light-ship, carried away 12 feet of her bulwarks, and threw
the vessel upon her beam ends, in which position she lay
some minutes before she righted. The man whose watch it
was fortunately happened at that moment to be aloft, regu-
lating the lanterns, otherwise he must have been washed
overboard. The vessel made no water, and her bulwarks
were being repaired afloat. The present case (the report
added) illustrated the necessity for a vessel of enlarged ca-
pacity and be could not close the report without bearing
his testimony to the good conduct of Smith, the master of
the vessel, and of his small crew, under these trying circum-

stances

Me. HOLT, chairman of the sub-committee, mentioned
that the lights themselves were at the water's edge.
Mr. RIPLEY inquired what was the tonnage of the present
light-ship ?
Mr. IIoLT said it was 140 tons, but the sub-committee
had recommended the new vessel to be of 200 tons.
Mr. MOLYIVEUX said the vessel had fallen on her beam
ends by reason of the ballast having shifted ; and the present
accident, therefore, pointed out the necessity of having a
different kind of ballast.

Tlr. EvANs hoped that, before any change was made in
that respect, proper time would be taken for consideration.
It was notorious that vessels which lay low in the water la-
boured harder than those which were higher.

Mr. AIKIN said that was true, but it applied rather to
vessels under sail.

Mr. RIPLEY remarked that the committee were not aware
of the immense weight of the lanterns attached to the light-
ship. They must not fancy them to be so light as ordinary
lanterns. Each of them weighed two tons, which was too
heavy for a vessel of 140 tons burthen.

Elie CHAIRMAN said there must, under such circum-
stances, be an immense leverage.
Mr. Tontx was still of the opinion he expressed last
week that an iron light vessel would never do; and if any
thing happened to it he begged that his opposition might
be recollected.

Mr. MELLOR added that if he had been present at the
last meeting, he should have voted with Mr. Tobin.
Mr. RrPLEY said, that connected with this subject he
begged to mention that at the last meeting of the commit-
tee, there had been a discussion concerning iron vessels.
Since that meeting he had received two letters, one from
Mr. Grantham, who being interested in the John Garrow,
iron ship, felt aggrieved by the manner in which that ves-
sel had been named. He (Mr. Ripley) happened to remark
that Mr. Laird had assured him that the iron with which
he built his vessels cost £25 a ton, and he would tell the
committee how that occurred. On going to Mr. Laird's
works, the men were cutting some iron which was exceed-
ingly beautiful, and on his remarking that it was like sil-
ver, Mr. Laird said—" I pay £2B a ton for this." He
(Mr. Ripley) mentioned £25 in the committee; but this
did not apply to the whole vessel ; where it was necessary
Mr. Laird said they put it.; namely, to the stem, stern,
and keel. He therefore ought to have stated that the iron
for those parts of the vessel cost £25 a ton. He also re-
marked that the iron for the ship John Garrow cost .£l2
a ton, but it should have been stated that it cost £l2 a ton
register. The reporters had misunderstood him on this
point ; for it had appeared in the STANDARD that the iron
cost only £l2 a ton. It was feared that this would ope-
rate against the John Garrow, and he had received a letter
from Mr. Grantham, which he begged might be read to
the committee. He (Mr. Ripley) begged to add that he
had since gone over the John Garrow, and examined her,
and what he had seen only confirmed his opinion in fa-
vour of iron vessels.. He believed there was not one plate
which was the worse for wear, and he was satisfied that if
there was an opportunity of knowing the exact weight of
each, and if all the rust were rubbed off, there would not
be a loss of five per cent. In fact the more he saw of
iron vessels the more he was convinced that they would an-
swer, and eventually supersede_the use of wood vessels.

_ . , .
Mr. MASON, the secretary, then read the following letter,
addressed by Mr. Grantham to Mr. Ripley :
" North Foundry, March 30th, 1841.
" THOS. RIPLEY, Esq.
..

".DEAR Sin,—l avail myself of your kind offer to correct
some erroneous statements which have appeared in the news-
paper reports of the last week's meeting of the Dock Com-
mittee, relating to the John Garrow, an iron ship, upon
which I am employed making alterations. Such observa-
tions, if left unnoticed, might seriously injure her character.

" The expressions, as quoted in the STANDARD of Friday
last, are these : •

" First for yourself. He had heard it mentioned that
the John Garrow, iron vessel in the East India trade, was
in many places injured by rust.'

" Aikin mentioned that an iron vessel (the name of
which could not be heard), after having made only one voy-
age, presented q great deal of corrosion; so much so, that
the corroded pieces had to be taken out and destroyed.
" ' Mr. Ripley observed that Mr. Laird had assured him
that he paid £25 per ton for the iron which he used : the
John Garrow, he (Mr. Ripley) understood, was built of
iron which cost only £l2. The builders, indeed, could not
afford to do more.'
" Mr. Aikin has since informed me that his remarks also
related to the John Garrow. Since 'visiting this vessel with
me on Monday last, and seeing the plates that have been
taken from her, you have become aware that the statements
respecting Ole corrosion are wholly without foundation.
" On requesting Mr. Aikin to inform tee how he had ob-
tained his information, he shewed me apiece of angle iron
that had been brought him from her, and which he supposed
had corroded at one end. Any practical man will, however,
at once perceive that it was not corrosion, but a scale torn
off while driving out the rivets that secured it. Mr. Aikin
also stated that he had been to the dock, and had there seen
several plates that had corroded through the holes, and some
that had become quite thin. The facts, however, are these :
—The vessel being exceedingly well rivetted, a few of the
plates were broken through the holes in separating them (a
work of great difficulty); and those supposed to have worn
thin at their edges, were formed so intentionally at the
building of the vessel. In fact, since iron vessels have been
known, there has never been a more favourable specimen of
their probable duration than this vessel affords; and I be-
lieve, if alterations in her form had not been necessary, not
a plate or rivet would have required renewal for 20 or 30
years., Our works are open to Mr. Aikin, if he wishes to
make further observations ; and I should he glad to shew
him how he has been misled.

" With respect to the iron used in the John Garrow, I
may state that she is built of what are called best plates,
which are of the same quality as those generally used by
Mr. Laird and other respectable builders. Their present
market price ranges from £lO to £ll Ils. per ton, accord-
ing to the character of the maker ; the exceptions in these
rates being for a few plates used in the keel, and those of

extra size.
" I trust that my duty to the owners will be my excuse
for troubling you with this explanation, and remain,
" Dear sir, your most obedient servant,
" JOHN GRANTHAM."
Mr. RIPLEY here added that there had not been a single
plate of iron removed from the John Garrow in consequence
of corrosion. She was now being altered from no cause of
that sort, but because her form was bad.
Mr. AIKIN.—Do ypu know that of your own knowledge,
or from mere report ?
Mr. RIPLEY said he knew it from his own knowledge. He
was very glad that this discussion had taken place, because
he was satisfied that in the end iron would prove to be better
than wood, and that the opinions of those who were in favour
of wood, would be materially shaken.
Mr. AIKIN said, that as his name had been frequently
used in the letter of Mr. Grantham, he deemed it right to
call to the recollection. of the committee, that it was not as
the reporters had it, that he mentioned a vessel whose name
could not be heard, but he distinctly stated, he thought it
was not advisable to name the vessel. Some gentlemen had
mentioned the name of the John Garrow, and at the time he
thought it was better not to have done so, because he ap-
prehended that it would lead to a discussion. If they un-
fortunately happened to speak of individual ships, they would
always have discussions upon those ships. As far as he
was concerned, he could only say, that in going round the
docks his attention had been called to a great variety of
plates, and although he did not pretend to be practically
acquainted with iron, he must say, that as far as his
humble judgment went, they appeared to him to be
corroded. His attention had been called to " them by
several individuals upon different occasions. When he
heard the report of the Marine Surveyor, he found that it
was a fair and creditable report as regarded iron vessels ;
generally speaking, it showed their advantages over wooden
vessels, such as in capacity, buoyancy, and perhaps, with
steam, speed. He (Mr. A.), however, had no hesitation in
stating that iron might be better in those respects than wood;
but the question at issue was the durability, Now, on this
subject it was vain to take the John Garrow or any other
vessel which had made only one voyage. What he had meant
to say was, that he saw a number of iron plates upon the
quay. which, as far as he was enabled to judge, and also in
the judgment of practical people, were corroded to a great
extent. So far, therefore, he was not prepared to change his
opinions, or to abandon the doubt which he still entertained
of the durability of iron vessels. He repeated that he was
extremely sorry that the John Garrow should have been
named in that committee ; and when she was named he ex-
pressly stated that it would have been better not to have
named her. The question of durability still remained to be
ascertained, and he did not think that the John Garrow pre-
sented a favourable specimen of durability.
Mr. RIPLEY said that every iron ship hitherto built was
named in the discussion upon the subject last week.
Mr. AIKIN observed that the John Garrow had only made
one voyage.
Mr. RIPLEY said that was undoubtedly true, but the his-
tory of the John Garrow should be known. She was con-
structed in the year 1838, and therefore she was now rather
more than three years old; but before she went out she lay
in a dock among coppered vessels, consequently there was a
chemical action going on upon the iron by reason of the cop-
per, which would produce a much greater tendency to corro-
sion than if the vessel had only been at sea.
Mr. TOBIN said Mr. Aikin had mentioned what he called
the "able" report of the Marine Surveyor, in which the
Marine Surveyor described the advantages of iron over wood
vessels. Be differed from Mr. Aikin in opinion upon the
merits of thaf report, for he thought he never saw a more
partial document in his life. At the same time he did not
wish to say one word agaidst the Marine Surveyor, for he
thought the estate had derived great benefit from his ser-
vices; but he thought, that as he was instructed to report
upon the comparative merits of wood and iron, he should
not have given the preference so exclusively to iron. He
reported, for instance, that the cost in each case would be
about the same ; but he (Mr. Tobin)• contended that there
would be the greatest difference if durability were taken into
the question. There were three iron vessels and one wood
employed in the Niger expedition ; one had not been more
than four months in the river before she became good for
nothing, and the two others were coming home in the course
of the summer. Now, he bad bad a wood vessel for twenty-
five years which had never gone anywhere else but to Africa,
and she was as good now as ever she was. He had no doubt
that for river purposes iron vessels would answer very well,

but they would never do for long sea voyages. But here,
because an iron vessel happened to have made one voyage
to China, the Dock Committee were going to adopt iron at
once, although they had the experience of a wood vessel
having lasted 26 years, and being capable of lasting 26 more.
Then, as to coating, no doubt iron might be preserved by
coating, but he had had great experience in seafaring matters,
and he had never yet seen an half-inch chain, which, after
two voyages to China, would not be half worn away. This
would be the case, he apprehended, with iron vessels.
Mr. EVANS enquired whether any steps had been taken
in contracting for an iron light-ship ?
The CHAIRMAN said the subject of a contract was now
before the sub-committee. .

Mr. HOLT remarked that Mr. Tobin seemed to have
blamed the Marine Surveyor for the report which he had
made. It should, however, be recollected, that the Com-
mittee had directed the Marine Surveyor to report expressly
upon the relative merits of wood and iron ; and he had col-
lected a great mass of information.
Mr. Tony.—From the builders of iron ships.
Mr. HOLT said, not from them only, but from men of
great character and eminence who were exceedingly well qua-
lified to give an opinion. It was not likely, therefore, that
he could speak in favour of wood, after he had read such
strong evidence in favour of iron.
Mr. MELLOR held the rule which was good in common
life to be good in this case—" Let well alone."
The CHAIRMAN.—It is a good old tory principle.
Mr. MELLOR continued. The committee had the advan-
tage of experience with regard to wood vessels, and they had
been found to work extiemely well. Indeed if an iron ves-
sel could be built for one half the price which it was stated
at, he should even in that case hesitate to adopt it • but he
should certainly oppoSe any such proposition when Le found
that iron would cost as much as wood, with the further disad-
vantage of uncertainty as to whether it would answer. He
could not help regretting that the committee should have de-
cided to build a light-ship of iron.
The CHAIRMAN said that subject had been decided upon
by the committee, and it could not now be re-opened.
Mr. TOBIN reminded the chairman that the discussion
upon iron vessels had been commenced by Mr. Grantham's
letter.

Mr. MELLOR said that when the contract came before the
•committee, they would be competent either to adopt or re-
jectit.

•
Mr. AIKIN confirmed Mr. Tobin'i statement that there
was scarcely any iron which would stand against the conti-
nual wash of water, and he also admitted the effect of the
chemical action of copper immersed in water upon it.
Mr. RIPLEY fancied that the future discussions of this
subject would have reference only to the size of the intended
new light-ship; in other words, that the principle had been
already adopted.
Mr. MELLOR said he understood the chairman to have
said the subject would be discussed again.
The CHAIRMAN explained that the contract might be dis-
cussed upon the report or recommendation of the sub-com-
mittee.

Mr. Nicol, put it to the chairman to say whether the
principle had not been decided.
The CHAIRMAN replied that it had.
Mr. RIPLEY.—Then it cannot be re-opened.
Mr. TOBIN asked if the question was at an end what
need there was for Mr. Ripley to have introduced it.
The CHAIRMAN.-It was only introduced in consequence
of the inaccuracy into which the reporters were led at the
last meeting.
The subject then dropped.

DOCK ACCOMMODATION FOR COASTERS.
A memorial from parties engaged in the corn and coast-
ing trade for further dock accommodation for their vessels
was read and received.

The committee then proceeded to financial business, and
separated about one o'clock.

LANCASHIRE CONSTABULARY FORCIi

MEETING OF MAGISTRATES YESTERDAY AT

PRESTON.
(From our GUM Reporter.)
Yesterday a very numerous meeting of the magistrates of
this county,—we believe the most numerous that ever took
place at any other sessional court in Lancashire,—was held
at the Court-house, Preston, to take into consideration
.the
propriety of adopting a series of resolutions, of which notices
had been given by different magistrates, relative to the abo-
lition or modification of the rural police force.
Soon after ten o'clock the attendance was very large, in-
cluding a considerable sprinkling from Liverpool and Man-
chester. At eleven o'clock the Rev. Jonathan Brooks, our
respected rector, was called to the chair, and he briefly
opened the proceedings, by giving an outline of the business
to be transacted.

The presentation of petitions, and the remarks they called
forth, occupied above au hour. An immense number from
all parts of the county were presented by the several mem-
bers of the court resident in the respective districts to which
they referred. Most of them were in the nature of memo-
rials, praying that the police force might be disbanded and
abolished forthwith, while others recommended modifica-
tions of the system, and the division of the county into sepa-
:rate sectional constabulary districts.

After the preliminary business was gone through, P. E.
TOWNLEY, Esq., of Townley, proposed a resolution enuciat-
ing the " uselessness, expense, and inefficiency " of the force,
and desiring that the sanction of the Secretary of State, for
its abolition, might be applied for forthwith. The hon.
magistrate enforced his motion in a very spirited and ex-
cellent speech, which was cordially received by the court.
JOHN WHITTAKER, Esq., seconded the motion.
Col. RAWSTORNE , of Penwortham, recommended the
withdrawal of the motion, and suggested that the discussion
should turn upon the improvement and modification of the
system, rather than upon its entire withdrawal. He con-
ceived that in some districts the constabulary were much
needed, and therefore ought to be retained.
Sir T. D. Trafford, Mr, Marshall, and Mr. 11. Wood,
spoke in favour of the motion.
After which the Rev. P. T. HouToN, of Ormskirk, moved
the negative of the motion in a speech of considerable length.
He contended that the persons who opposed the police force,
especially those who were so forward in petitioning against
it, were urged on by the brewers, the publicans, the disaf-
fected and the disreputable, who were, of con rt,e, reluctant
that there should be any vigilant supervision at all over the
persons and property of the community.
Colonel AUSTEN, of Fishwick, seconded the amendment,
being of opinion that it would be far more desirable to alter
the arrangements of the constabulary system than to dispense
with it altogether. •
After a prolonged debate, in which Mr. C. Townley, Mr.
Kadick, Mr. Foster, Sir T. Potter, Mi. Crossley, Mr. IN ood
and the Chairman took part, the court divided, when there
appeared—
For the Amendment • Bl
55
Against it

LO
Majority. ................. ' •
The Court then proceeded on the several notices of motion,
with respect to the fresh construction of the force. The first
of these were by Colonel Rawstorne, who had on the notice
paper two motions—one as to the direction of the force, and
one as to the system of secondary punishments, and as to
the adoption of the silent and separate systems.
After these were briefly introduced, they were, at the
suggestion of several magistrates withdrawn, to give place to
some other proposition by Col. Austen.
The following propositions were then moved by Colonel
AUSTEN. _ .

Ist. That each hundred in Lancashire be formed into se-
parate police districts, the whole to be under the chief con-
stable as heretofore ; the number of officers and men for
each division and district to be arranged by the magistrates of
their respective hundreds, in their respective petty sessions.
2d. The amount termed the " general expense" to be
borne according to the number of men actually appointed,
and serving in each petty sessional district, at so much per
man per annum.
3d. That when the local committee for each hundred be
formed, consisting of not less than seven magistrates, to
meet between the 3rd and 14th of each month, for the pur-
pose of inspecting and approving of the expenditure of the
district for the previous month, and be laid before the
committee by the superintendent or inspector of the divi-
sion ; and when signed by the chairman, to be transmitted
to the chief constable, for the purpose of being included in
the general return of expenditure.
. .

4th. That all members of the local boards should be con-
sidered as members of the general committee, to meet at
Preston on or after the 3d Wednesday in each month, for
ordering payment by the county treasurer, of all accounts
that have been duly passed and certified by the auditor of
constabulary accounts.

5. That when the magistrates for the different hundreds
should have arranged as to the number of officers and men
they consider sufficient for each division, the result to be
intimated to the Clerk of the Peace, for transmission to the
Secretary of State, for final approval as to the number of
constables required for Lancashire. Charles Townley, Esq.,
seconded the resolutions, and after a brief discussion, in
in which Messrs. Jackson, Hirton, Townley, and Minshull
took part,
The third and fourth paragraphs were omitted, and the
rest of the resolutions were agrded to nern di:.
The clerk then read over the other notices of motions ;
but after Colonel Austen's resolutions were disposed of,
there appeared to be a general feeling among the magis-
trates, that they included substantially all that was com-
prised in the other notices, and it was thereupon resolved
that the court should now adjourn. This proposition being
assented to without any objection, a vote of thanks was
passed to the Rev. Chairman, and the meeting broke up
at four o'clock.

On Tuesday the congregation of Christ Church, in this
town, presented to their late curate, the Rev. Geo. Mansfield
A. M., a handsome purse, as a token of their esteem and
regard for hislindefatigable labours as a minister of Christ.

LIVERPOOL FAVOURITES.-Mr. H. Holl, from the Liver-
pool Theatre Royal, appeared at the Haymarket, as Orlando,
in "As you like it," on Wednesday. Mr. Raymond, it is
probable, will make his bow to a London audience in the cha-
racter of Major O'Flaherty, in the comedy of the " West
Indian," at the conclusion of the season at his own theatre
in Liverpool : Mrs. Raymond, some years since, as Miss
lloldaway, was a favourite actress and vocalist at the English
Opera House.
Miss CLARA Noyni.i.o.—We perceive by the Leipsic pa-
pers, that Miss Clara Novello has been received with much
favour at the winter concerts in that city, where the talents
and style of this fair English vocalist are held to rival the
most celebrated cantatrici of Italy.
TOWNSHIP OF WEST DEREY.—The Annual Vestry
Meeting of the inhabitants and ratepayers of the township,
was held in the Commissioners-rooms, Harper-street, Low-
Hill, yesterday forenoon, when Mr. John Butler, and Mr.
J. B. Leatherbarrow were reapdointed the overseers. Ob-
jection was taken to some items in the highway surveyor's
accounts, and to the auditor, as not sufficiently known to the
meeting, when four other auditors were chosen, and another
meeting fixed for next Thursday week. A discussion then
arose, as to the expediency of appointing a Board, for the
I
repair of the highways, with a paid agent, acting under their
direction, instead of continuing the appointment of a sur-
veyor, as had been done for the last three years. The ques-
tion was decided in favour of a surveyor as before, by 108
votes to 99. Mr. Freme then moved the appointment of a
surveyor, of Mr. Jesse Winward, of West Derby, (in the
place of Mr. Pennell). at a yearly salary of .1;105, to act
under the direction of the following gentlemen, Messrs.
Webb, Kenyon, Willan, and Youd ; Mr. E.
Hall ,seconded
the motion, which was carried with only three or four dissen-
tients. Mr. Freme moved, and Mr. Brassey seconded, a vote
of thanks to the chairman, Mr. John Taylor, and the meet-
ing separated.
THE FREEMASONS' BENEVOLENT FUND.—Amongst our
usual theatrical announcements it will be perceived that a
benefit is about to take place at the Liver Theatre, the pro-
ceeds of which will be applied in aid of the Freemasons'
Benevolent Fund attached to the Provincial Grand Lodge of
the Western Division of Lancashire. By means of this fund
the hungry are often fed, the naked clothed, and the sorrow-
ing widow and weeping child assisted in the hour of distress.
The distributors of it really " do good by stealth ;" so that
those who add to the amount, by their presence, on Tuesday
next, may have the satisfaction Of knowing that their contri-
bution is certain of being well applied. The creed of the
freemason is' good will to all, and he feels it his duty to
stretch out ahand to a brother in distress. The good mason
must be a good man ; therefore he truly thinks, " the labour
we delight in physics pain." On this occasion we anticipate
there will be a crowded house, for great exertions are making
to cram it to the ceiling. We cannot but notice that Mr.
Raymond, in the true spirit of masonry, came forward spon-
taneously and offered the use of his theatre and company
free of any charge. This very handsome offer was followed
by kindnesses from other parties, so that almost all the mo-
ney taken will be applied to the fund.

EFFECT OF THE PROPERTY AND INCOME TAX
UPON BUILDING SOCIETIES.

On Wednesday evening a crowded public meeting of the
members of all the building societies established in Liver-
pool was held in the Clarendon-rooms, South John-street,
for the purpose of considering how far the property and in-
come tax, proposed by Sir Robert Peel, will affect their in.
comes. This meeting was called by virtue of a resolution
which had been agreed to for that purpose at a meeting of
deputations from the several societies, held some days ago.
Mr. William Walthew, president of the Union Society, was
called to the chair.

The CHAIRMAN in commencing the proceedings said, the
meeting had assembled for the very important object of taking
into consideration how far the proposed property and income
tax would affect building societies. Concerning the extent
to which they would be affected thereby there appeared to
be a difference of opinion ; some supposing that not only
the property mortgaged with the societies would be af-
fected, but that the profits also of them would be liable.
At present, however, it was impossible for him or any
other individual except, perhaps, Sir Robert Peel, to give
a correct answer to this question. Yesterday, a depu-
tation, consisting of Mr. Hindle, Mr. Bennett, and himself,
had' the honour of an interview with Mr. Thornely, the mem-
ber for Wolverhampton, who listened to the subject which
thy wished to bring under consideration with great atten-
tion. The result of the interview was that Mr. Thornely
promised to give any assistance that might be in his power in
support of their efforts to obtain the exemption of building
societies from the proposed tax, and to_send them a copy of
Sir Robert Peel's bill as soon as it was printed. On Friday
last, he (the chairman) addressed a letter to Mr. Wainwright,
Lord Sandon's secretary, upon thi's subject, which letter he
would read, together with that gentleman's reply. The chair-
man then read his letter, dated the 25th, to Mr. Wainwright,
which requested that gentleman to inform him, as far as he
might be able, in time to communicate it to the present meet-
ing, of the precise position in which building societies would
be placed by the contemplated measure, and it concluded by
stating, that the general opinion in Liverpool was, that these
societies ought to be exempted. On the 28th Mr. Wain-
wright replied that he had laid the chairman's letter before
Lord Sandon, but that his lordship could not undertake to
answer the question put to him ; but if his lordship were fur-
nished with a full explanation of the nature of such societies,
he would lay the case before Sir Robert Peel for his decision
thereupon. This was all that he (the chairman) had to say
at present. There were gentlemen prepared to move certain
resolutions upon this important question, and he trusted that
in offering their remarks to the meeting, they would be lis-
tened to with attention and candour. (Hear, hear, hear.)
_ _

, .
Mr. SHORTHOUSE then came forward to move the first
resolution, which said, that in the opinion of the meeting the
contemplated income tax upon property might, in all proba-
bility, affect to a partial extent the interests of building socie-
ties. From the manner in which this resolution was worded,
the meeting would perceive that he was not in a position to
give them correct data to enable there to arrive at a decided
opinion upon the extent to which building societies would be
affected by the proposed measure. Any opinion formed under
such circumstances must necessarily be of an inferential cha-
racter. No judgment whatever could be formed either from
the speeches on the subject delivered by Sir Robert Peel in
parliament, or from his answers to the questions which had
been proposed to him by different members of the house. It
was very true that no questions had been put to him upon
the subject of benefit building societies, nor had he made any
allusion to them in any of his schedules; but in his first
speech, when he introduced the proposition, he stated that
all the property of Great Britain, meaning thereby the income
arising from property of all descriptions, and of course in-
cluding the rental of all houses. should be subject to the tax,
with certain limitations. In Schedule A he estimated the
landed rental of the country at £39,400,000, the in rental of
houses at £25,000,000 ; and the next item he made up of
three things, namely, joint stock companies, tithes, arid
other matters, realizing an amount assessable for taxation of
£B,4oo,ooo—making a total in Schedule A of assessable pro-
perty of £72,800,000. One-fourth was to be deducted from
this amount, being the limitation he had alluded to, for pro-
perty the rental of which did not amount to £l5O per annum;
in other words, rentals which did not amount to £l5O a year
were not to be assessed to the tax. But the question in dis-
pute with regard to building societies was this : Many people
said, " If any rental from my houses does not come to £l5O
a year. I am clear ;" another party said, " If your rental be
only £5O a year, and suppose you have a salary of £lOO a
year, your rental will pay, because you will be assessed
upon a £l5O income." That was clear enough. Sup-
pose a clerk had £6O rental, and a salary of £l2O, (of
which there were many cases in Liverpool,) he conceived
that this man must pay both upon his salary and upon his
rental. " But, " some contended, "he has no income '
from his rental, because he pays all the £6O which he re-
ceives into the building society, and £l2 or £lB more." Sir
Robert Peel certainly did not appear to have made any pro-
vision for cases like this; but he (Mr. Shorthouse) apprehended
that such parties would be considered as the landlords and
assessed accordingly. The only question which remained
then would be this—will the intended bill allow him, the
mortgagor, the privilege against the mortgagee of demanding
back the amount which he has paid towards this tax ? That
was the question. (Hear, hear, hear.) Sir Robert Peel said
the machinery to be used for the collection of the tax was to
be that which existed before—a considerable time ago. The
machinery then, as applied to rental, was in this way—if you
had property assessed to the amount of £lOO a year, with
what was called an ordinary mortgage, and if you were called
upon to pay £5O for the interest upon the mortgage, it was
clear that your real income would be only £5O. By the act
of parliament the mortgagor had the privilege of deducting
the per centage which he paid for the tax from the interest
due to the mortgagee—that is, lie paid the £5O less the
amount he had paid for the tax. If this was to he the ma-
chinery employed, we could tell how it would work ; its work-
ing would be this—if I have a rental of £lOO per annum, and
if the property is mortgaged to a building society, I have not
an income of £lOO per annum, because I pay the whole of
that, and perhaps £2O more •, but the act of parliament will
come in and say to the building society, who are the mort-
gagees that I am entitled to receive from you the per centage
which I have paid for taxes. This would be the way the
thing would work if the old machinery were to be brought in.
It would be a matter of little importance if this was to be
the mode of working, because in such a case the whole body
of members in the building society would bear the burden—
which, indeed, he thought to be only just. If, on the other
hand, this was not to be the way, and if individual members,
who had mortgaged property and who had bought" at
large premiuma, were made to bear the burden out of their
own pockets—although it might not appear to be a large
sum, still it would become an object of prejudice against
building societies. On these accounts, therefore, he would
say at once, whether the contemplated act of parliament so
laid it down or not—rather than wait for an act of parliament
to go on in this manner, let all building societies pass a law
among their own members, that where any mortgagor is
proved to have paid the tax by the production of the receipt,
the amount be refunded to him from the society. (Hear,
hear.) They would find that a rule of this kind would by no
means injure the interests of the society; but, on the other
hand, unless something of the kind were adopted, prejudice
would-be created in the. minds of those who were about to
" purchase," and they would not offer quite so high premiums
as in the other case. This, he conceived, would be a plain
mode of dealing with the matter; but at present being with-
out information on the subject the meeting would see that
they could not consider any definite point, and that he (Mr.
Shorthouse) and the others who would address them were
necessarily speaking only upon supposition. (Hear.) Now,
supposing that this was to be the mode in which the matter
was to act, it should be borne in mind that mortgagors un-
der Building Societies would be in a much better position
than mortgagors under ordinary mortgages. (Hear.) Sup-
pose he had a rental of £lOO per annum, with the old ma-
chinery in force, and the interest which he had to pay was
£5O, be would be at liberty to deduct from that £5O the
proportion on the assessment, whatever it might be; but
in ordinary mortgages the mortgagor would have to pay
his £5 per cent. and this tax besides. (Hear, hear,
hear.) The mortgagor under the Society, therefore, would
be by far in the best position of the two. (Hear.) It was
too early, however, at present to discuss these points, espe-
cially as there was another resolution to be proposed which
would include all that was material to be done to-night.
The most material business at present was to bring the
members of the various societies together in order to bring
out the real bearings of the case, in order to see how they
might best deal with them. (Hear.) They wanted neither
to agitate the public mind nor to oppose government ; they
had no political views to promote ; they did not wish to sup-
port either one party or another; but what they really
wanted was to set themselves right—to guard their purses if
they could ; and, in short, to maintain the interests of the
building societies in general. (Applause.) Mr. Shorthouse
concluded by formally moving the resolution.
Mr. BENNETT seconded the resolution.

Mr. TURNER had no wish whatever to oppose the resolu-
tion ; on the contrary, he called upon the meeiing, before
they assented to it, to consider for a moment and put them-
selves in Sir Robert Peel's position at this crisis. (Hear.)
Here was a new species of property which had sprung up
since the old income tax had been done away with in the
shape of houses erected by means of building societies.
Now if Sir Robert Peel were to exempt those societies from
his proposed tax, how much would he be able to get from
the other houses in this country ? (Hear. hear.) Did the
meeting think that Sir Robert Peel did not know the cha-
racter and the circumstances of the people who constituted
these building societies ? Yes, just as well as they did them-
selves. [The CHAIRMAN-1 hope he does.] And did not
the meeting think that it would be unjust to the public at
large to. exempt building societies? (Hear, hear.) On
considering the subject he thought there could be no doubt
whatever that the property of building societies would have
to pay the income tax (hear); and the only thing they had
to do was to consider among themselves who should pay the
tax—the man who received his money or the society. (Hear.)
If building societies should happen to be exempt from the
tax there would be such an accession of members to them
that each society would require two or three secretaries,—
(hear,)—but of that he confessed he had no hope ; and as he
had said before the only question was who should pay the
tax. If the society refused to pay it, they would be placed
in a dilemma,—the members would decrease, premiums
would fall, and the termination of the society would be de-
ferred for three or four years longer than had been originally
calculated upon. (Hear, hear.) It would be a most ex-
cellent puzzle for the solicitors to the different societies to
put their heads together and try to solve the problem of
which way they should act to obtain the object in view; but
at the same time be thought that as sure as they lived they
would have to pay the tax. (Hear, hear.)
A MEMBER enquired whether it was intended that the
contemplated tax should be laid upon the supposed or actual
income of the societies?

The CHAIRMAN understood that it was to be assessed
upon the actual income.
Mr. MAGU IRE would like to know how the tax was to be
regulated in the case of building societies? Who was the
real and bona fide owner of property in a building society?
Had not the man who did not " purchase" quite as much
interest in the property as the man who did " purchase," al-
though the latter had received his money ? How, then, could
the tax be defined? Moreover, there were widows embarked
in these societies, which operated also as benefit societies ;
but passing this by he could not conceive how the tax could
be defined, from the nature of the premiums. Parties were
constantly paying in who received nothing out of the society,
and how could they be taxed? And in the case of a "pur-
chaser," who could tell what his interest might be.? He
defied Sir Robert Peel, himself to say what would be his
interest. (Hear, hesr.)
A MEMBER said that members of building societies might
rest themselves tolerably secure that they would not have to
pay this tax, inasmuch as there were very few rentals indeed
of the amount.

Mr. SHORTIIOUSE explained that in all such cases the
rental would be added to the amount of the professional in.
come of the individual ; and the total would be assessed to
the tax.

The MEMBER.—My impression is, that they will not be
put together. (Cries of " Hear, hear," and "Nonsense.")
Mr. JONES asked, whether, if a man bought a property
worth £2OOO which brought him in £2OO a year, he would
pay for the interest upon the capital, or for the actual
income ? _ . .

le bagatelle.
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youriAri
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tpwo
illtlbiee rae nmt
ea
Mr. SITOATHOUSE.--It will be 1.:6, however. (Hear.) It
may be a bagatelle to you, perhaps.
Mn. NIELSON said he appeared as the representative of two
of the greatest building societies in Liverpool ; and he begged
to state his conviction that Sir Ropert Peel would tax building
societies just in the same way as joint stock companies. He
would take their annual reports and tax them accbrding to
the statements in those documents. It was premature.
however, to discuss Sir Robert Peel's intentions ; and it
would be much better to defer going into details till they

aw what his plan actually was. At present they were only
u tting weapons into Sir Robert's hands to defeat the sole
object they had in view, which was the protection of building
societies. (Hear hear.)
The CHAIRMAN explained that the principal end of the
meeting was to appoint a committee to watch the measure.
MR. SMITH (we believe) thought thatinstead of passing the
resolution as it stood, the meeting should negative it. They
should wait for the appearance of Sir. R Peel's bill, and
discuss its merits when it did appear.
MR. BENNETT, in reply to that, would only say that in
anticipation of the bill coming out, it was necessary for the
several societies to be ready organized in order to examine
it, and to adopt such measures in respect to it as might be
most proper to protect the interests of building societies.
' To negative the first resolution would be to prevent that
organization.
MR. Su OATH ()use said that all these points had been pretty
fully canvassed ; and what they had to do now was to see
that they did not kindle a flame unnecessarily. Something,
however, roust be done, inlorder to watch the bill (hear hear);
because if they waited till they bill was out, before they
formed an organization it would be too late for any practical
good. Indeed, if it had not been for the very determined
opposition in the House of Commons, things would have
been more matured by this time than they were. It was for-
tunate that the holidays happened to come at the time they
did. (Hear hear).
MR. BANNISTER said the proposed taxation would very
seriously affect the interests of the building societies. Sche-
dule A would affect not only the income, but a great portion
of the stock which had been lent to " purchasers." If an y
further light could be thrown upon the subject, it would be
better.
The CHAIRMAN.—We cannot, because the bill is not yet
printed.
Mr. Smrrx said the resolution which had been proposed
presumed too much. It presumed that the bill of Sir Robt.
Peel would affect building societies, for which there were no
positive grounds. For himself he thought the bill could not
at all affect the owners of property, which property was
mortgaged to a building society ; and he had some doubt
whether it would apply to building societies at ail. By the
act of parliament a building society was considered to be a
benefit society or institution, and under that acceptation
they might more reasonably expect an exemption from the
tax than a ground for its imposition. But taking it upon the
worst ground, and granting that a tax would be imposed, it
was through the ownership of the property mortgaged to it
that it became liable. Now, the ownership of the property,
as far as regarded the individual member,was nominal, in the
first instance at least ; he might not have a shilling in it, but
the law said he became the owner of it by paying interest to
the society ; but he had no real property in it, and he could
take none till the termination of the society. To whom,
then, did the benefit result ? Why, to the society ; and it
was for the benefit of the society, for the mutual advantage
of the members to encourage poor industrious persons to
associate in this way in order to acquire a small property,
which might suffice either for their maintenance in old age,
or as a provision for their children. He felt satisfied that
Sir Robert Peel, however he might be obliged to procure
fresh taxes, would never contemplate a-tax upon the income
of building societies. He concluded by recommending a
verbal alteration in the terms of the motion.
Mr. SHORTHOUSE replied to Mr. Smith, and expressed
his conviction that the income of building societies would be
made liable to the intended tax.
The motion was then put by the Chairman, and carried
unanimously.
Mr. R tiSIIDY moved the second resolution, which proposed
the appointment of a committee; consisting of two members
from each building society in Liverpool, to watch the progress
of the income tax bill, to ascertain how far it would affect
building societies, and to use every prudent effort to obtain
either a mitigation of the tax, or a complete exemption from
its operation, if it should appear burdensome or injurious.
With regard to the view which Sir Robert Peel took of
building societies—of course he was entirely ignorant;
but it appeared to him that the right honourable baronet
would not pass by the houses belonging to building
societies; and whether he would view them in the light of
joint stock companies, or of savings banks, was very ques-
tionable. It appeared to him (Mr. Rushbv) that the most
just principle, if it could be done. would be to ascertain the
real profits of each building society in the course of the year,
and not to go upon their nominal income. As chairman of
a society in Liverpool, he should be willing to recommend
that society to pay a fair proportion of their realised income,
in the same way as Sir Robert Peel intended to tax the •
joint-stock companies; but building societies never could be
looked upon in the light of savings banks.
Mr. JOHNSON seconded the resolution ; but at the same
time lie thought that building societies were, to all intents
and purposes, saving banks for the poor man, as completely
as those established by government. On that account he
held that they should be exempted, as well as saving banks,
from the intended taxation. He believed that Sir Robert
Peel was altogether ignorant of the real nature of building ,
societies, and that when he properly understood them he
would consent to an exemption in their favour.
Mr. TURNER cautioned every building society against
showing their annual reports. They should be kept as snug
as possible, otherwise they would throw out many a hint to
the assessors.
The CHAIRMAN then put the motion, and it was unani-
mously carried.
A committee was then formed to carry out the second re- 1
solution ; after which the usual thanks were voted to the 1
chairman, and the meeting separated.

THAMES HAVEN DOCK
COMPANY

AND RAILWAY

Yesterday a meeting of the shareholders in the Eastern
Counties Railway was held in the Clarendon-rooms, South
John-street, for the purpose of affording to the secretary of
the Thames Haven Dock and Railway Company an oppor-
tunity of laying before them the affairs of that company, with
the view ultimately of obtaining the capital necessary for the
completion of the undertaking, and the co-operation of the
directors of the Eastern Counties Railway in the working of
the concern.

The SOLICITOR to the EASTERN CnUNTIES COMPANY
said the object of requesting the present meeting of Eastern
Counties shareholders in Liverpool was to lay before them,
for their consideration, the state and prospects of the Thames
Haven Dock and Railway Company. Seeing the direct in-
terest which the Eastern Counties Railway had in the suc-
cess of the Thames Haven Dock and Railway Company, it
/acid coneidcrod cmpcdiclit to oval! theinsetves or to is op-
portunity, on visiting this town upon other business, to re-
quest influential gentlemen in Liverpool, who were con-
nected with the Eastern Counties, to take into consideration
the general question, whether the Thames Haven Company,
which was so identified with the prosperity of the Eastern
Counties line, should be supported by that the greater com-
pany.
Mr. RAMS.DEN, the secretary to the Thames Haven Com-
pany, then rose and delivered a long address, explanatory of
the circumstances in which that company is placed, and of
the objects which it aims at accomplishing. It was an under-
taking altogether independent of the Eastern Counties line ;
but it would be unnecessary for him to show that it would be
of great advantage to that company, seeing that it would run
over twelve miles of their line. For running over that length
a toll must be paid, whether the Thames Haven answered or
rot ; and the Eastern Counties, therefore, must derive bene-
fit. He thought, however, that the merits of the Thames
Haven Company were neither appreciated nor known. There
was no town or existing establishment at Thames Haven,
and consequently peopl were unaware of its capabilities.
The position where the intended dock was to be placed was
so favourable, that, if once looked into, it would be at
once seen that a great portion of the export and import
trade, which now went into the river because it could
not go into the docks would go to the Thames Haven
dock. But it was necessary to obtain assistance in
order to make the dock. At first it was proposed that
the dock should be only a coal dock, but it was now
agreed to make it into a steam dock ; no better place could
be found for that purpose, none more capable of easy
adaptation to the purpose, and none more useful. Having
explained the purpose why the undertaking, which was
commenced about the same time as the Eastern Counties,
had not been prosecuted, he said the present was considered
a favourable opportunity to ask the Eastern Counties directors
to give the Thames Haven Company that assistance which,
in consequence of their being a branch, they had been pre-
vented hitherto from obtaining. The delay which had taken
place had been caused by certain parties not paying up their
subscriptions, and it had been found necessary to forfeit a
considerable number of them ; so that the want of funds
had prevented operations from being carried on, but if the
desired assistance could be obtained, all obstaclesof that kind
would vanish. Mr. Ramsden then proceeded to point out the
advantages which the dock and railway presented in a variety
of aspects with regard to the coal trade, the warehousing
trade, and the carrying of passengers. He had been in com-
munication with the Eastern Counties Directors, and he had
found them perfectly willing to negociate, but they felt that
that they could not take any steps themselves till the whole
of their own capital had been raised, but individual members
might take an interest in the concern upon their own ac-
count. In point of fact the Eastern Counties Directors
were desirous to take an interest in this undertaking; but
the difficulty lay in taking the first step. lf, therefore, the
Eastern Counties proprietors would give them the first lift
there would be little or no difficulty in going on afterwards.
The proprietors of the Herne Bay Pier were willing to assist,
the Margate and Ramsgate people were desirous to do so
likewise, but they felt themselves too feeble to succeed with-
out assistance. The coal owners of the north were anxious
for the dock and railway, and the united committee of the
coal trade had passed a resolution in favour of this com-
pany. Their connectin with factors in London pre-
vents them from taking the lead ; but if they
could once get started in Liverpool all would go on
well. The company might be considered as entirely out of
debt, and that nothing would be wanted in the way of pre-
liminary or present expenses ; the act having been obtained,
the surveys completed, and the whole so laid down that there
would be no occasion for alteration. It would be impossible
for those who subscribed to lose by it.

_
A SHAREHOLDER asked how many shares had been sub-
scribed for.

Mr. RAMSDEN said about 1570 could be depended upon.
Altogether 3385 had been subscribed for; 1874 had been
forfeited, but they might be taken up within three months.
He then entered into some minute explanations of the share
transactions, observing that the Thames Haven directors
had no wish to conceal any thing but to explain every thing.
He also described the (lock and Thames Haven as being easy
of construction, and being likely to absorb a very large pro-
portion of wharfage trade. £600,000 would complete every
thing they desired. This company would be willing to pay
the Eastern Company the toll agreed upon before, which was
eightpencs for every passenger.
Mr. SWIFT said the question would involve the terms
upon which the Eastern Counties Directors would admit the
traffic of this company upon their line ; but as there was no
communication from them, it was impossible to know their
feelings on the subject. If he were asked to take shares, he
should say " no," in the absence of all information. As a
shareholder in the Eastern Counties, it seemed to him de-
sirable that this line should be made ; but whether he should
take any shares in it depended upon the terms which the
Eastern Counties Directors would require for the use of their
line. He moved a resolution to the effect, that the directors
should be requested to inform the proprietors in Liverpool
of their opinion upon the question.
This resolution was seconded and carried unanimously ;
after which the meeting separated. .

A reply to the resoktiOn may be expected in a few days
when another meeting will be called to consider it.

CHURCH PREFERMENT.—The Rev. Charles Bullen,
M.A., late curate of Rainford, has been appointed to the
Incumbency of St. George's Church, Chorley, which became
vacant by the death of the Rev. Mr. Todhunter ; patron,
the Rev. J. Masters, Rector of Burnley.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.—On Tuesday, the 29th ult., Mr.
Cain, the agent to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty
to Animals, convicted James Holmes, the driver of a cart
with a load of coals, before Mr. Rushton, for cruelly beating
his horse on the head, being a very savage act, and corrobo-
rated by two other witnesses. He was fined forty shillings
and costs.—On the following day William Bayley,
Matthew
Moffat, Henry Laycock, and John M`Giovan, were severally
convicted before Mr. Rushton, and fined each five shil-
lings and • costs for cruelty to calves, in landing them from
the Birkenhead packet on Thursday, the 23th ult., on the
prosecution by one of. the committee of the same society.
Major Chipchase, of Durham, late of the 76th Regiment,
and a highly distinguished and meritorious of
has been
appointed, in the most handsome. and gratifying manner, by
Sir George Murray, Master-General of the Ordnance, to
the office of Barrack-Master at Windsor, on the resignation
of the Hon. George 'Liddell, the. new Distributor of Stamps
or the County of Dttrham.