The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-04-12 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

one on his side of the House, and that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would be obliged to the House if they
helped him to get quit of 't. There was no doubt but
that, from the great mass Of capital in this country, the
Funds would again rise to, their natural level, and h was
only then that the folly of this contract would be seen in
its tree colours. Thus, if peace continued, the bargain
was bad ; and if the country were again obliged to go to
war, he asked what could be more impolitic than to sad-
dle the Bank with this weight, that body beink to the
public what a private banker was to an individual—a re-
source in times of difficulty ?
Mr. HUSKISSON expressed his regret that he had not
been present at the commencement of the debate. To such
of the objections, however, as he bad heard, it appeared to
him that a very shortl answer might be givep—namely, that
they did not apply. Gentlemen seemed to argue now as if
the principle of this measure was broached for the first time.
whereas a contract had been already made with the Bank,
and the question was whether or not it was to be ratified.—
With regard Ito the objection taken to the Bank becoming
contractors, no such oojection was taken last year, when it
was intended that the Rank should contract for the whole
amount, and the objection would have been made with
greater force than now. lie could not say what effect this
loan would have upon the money market, being ignorant of
the domestic regulations of the Bank. They might divide
this loan amongst the Proprietors of stock, as they did in the
ease of the Loyalty Loan during the last war. It was said
this was an infringement of the Statute of William and
Mary ; but if this Statute was constructed too rigidly, the
hands of the Bank would be tied up altogether from nego-
elating any loan. The loan was contracted for upon the
market terms, and this the Government thought the fairest
standard. As to the loan being given exclusively to the
Bank, the Hon. Member himself had admitted that this was
precisely the description of loan which no class of indivi-
duals were disposed to speculate in. When it had been
contracted at the market price, without paying a premium,
he thought no complaint should be made by the public.
Mr. GRENFELL in explanation, said that in the case of
the Loyalty Loan, the Bank were advised by their Solicitor
that their Charter did not warrant them in engaging in any
transactions by which they would come to have any concern
in the buying or selling of stock.
Mr. HUSKISSON and Mr. II ALDIM AND severally ex-
plained.
Mr. MARTIN supported the amendment.
The House then divided, when there appeared—For the
motion. 53—Against it, 43—Majority. 11.
On our return to the gallery, the House was in a Com-
mittee on the Bill, and after some verbal amendments
were agreed to, the Report was ordered to be received on
Monday next.

IRISH GRANTS.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of

Supply,
Mr. GOULBURN said, that in moving the customary
Miscellaneous Estimates for Ireland, he did not conceive it
necessary to make any es,danations as to the necessity of
those Grants, unless they should happen to be objected to
by Gentlemen on the other side. He then moved to vote
the sum of 17,0001. for the Protestant Charter Schools in

Ireland.
Mr. HUME objected to the amount of this Grant, first.
on account of the heavy burdens which already pressed
upon Ireland ' • the expenditure of that country being al-
ready more by two millions and a half than its income.—
This fact appeared from the Returns that had already been
laid before the House; and he had entertained hopes that
long before this time, considerable reductions would have
been made In the expenses of Ireland. He expected that
the Excise Duties in the Miscellaneous Estimates would
be much greater thin they had been before the Union:—
but they had increased from 41,0001. to 200,0001. It was
his opinion that a public interference with charitable Insti-
tutions never did any good; because he knew that the
moneys voted for charities were always misapplied. As to
the proposed vote for Protestant Schools, he must express
his entire dissent from it ; because they never promoted
the education of the people of Ireland. He thought it
would be much better to apply a part of those sums now
proposed to the maintainance of central schools for chil-
dren of all sects. Let chartered schools employ their
funds as they liked but let the Parliamentary Orants go
to the education of the Catholics, so as to convert them
into good and peaceable subjects. He knew that the lower
classes of people in Ireland were extremely anxious to
have their children educated : and if they were educated,
many of the outrages by which Ireland was disturbed
would be put an end ;a. It was monstrous to suppose,
that 17,000/.was necessary for the education of 2,000 Pro-
testant children. The sum could never be applied to
purpose so limited as this: and if it were laid out in the
education of children of the community at large, it might
do good ; but be never would vote that sum for keeping
up such an unnatural state of society es that of taking
children away from their parents, and keeping them in
separate establishments, merely. for the sake of increas-
ing the number of Protestants in Ireland. Therfore he
should propose to reduce the vote to 10,000!. and to apply
the other 7.000/. to the general education of the pour in
Ireland.
Mr. GOULBURN said it was a great mistake to sup-
pose that the schools in question were intended solely for
the propagation of the Protestant religion. The chil-
dren educated iu them were generally orphans, and it did
not follow that, because they were the children of the
Protestant parents, they should be deprived of the support
usually granted to them by Parliament. On inquiry he
found that the persons educated at those schools had
always conducted themselves with great propriety in
every department of life into which they afterwards en-
tered.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the great evil belonging
to the scholastic institutions in Ireland, was that of their
being subdivided into such small establishments, that
the sums expended on each were rendered nearly useless;
whereas, if the money was applied to the support of large
provincial schools, education might be made more uni-
versal, and become greatly advantageous to the coun-
try. He could therefore recommend the abandonment
of all the lesser establishments,and that the sums granted
for their support should be applied to the larger ones,
where great numbers of children might be educated at
once, at comparatively little expense.
Mr. GOULBURN assured the Right Hon. Baronet,
that he had taken every possible means to render the
grants available to the benefit of the community as much
as possible.
Mr. NONCE thought that the charitable institutions
for propagating the Protestant religion in Ireland ought
to be supported by the voluntary contributions of the
landed proprietors of that country. If large sums of
this kind were voted annually, there would be no end to
the demands on Parliament ' • the larger the grants, the
more would be given; and distress, instead of being re-
moved, would be created. He would therefore support
the amendment.
Mr. HUME said he conceived that education ought al.
ways to be promoted in proportion to the number of per-
sons who were to be educated. He presumed that Catho-
lics had orphan children as well as Protestants, and he
wished to know why souse provisionshould not be made
for their education.
Mr. GOULBU RN said he did not think that the pro-
posed him larger was than required by the necessity of
the case.
Mr. GRATTAN said that this exclusive plan of grant-
ing money fur the education of Protestants, contributed
greatly to irritate the feelings of the Catholics.
Mr. HUME withdrew his first amendment, and then
proposed that the sum of 13,0001. be granted.
On this the Committee divided,
For the amendment 15 ; for the original resolution 42;
majority 26.
Mr. tiOULBURN next morel a grant of 14,000/. to
the Society for educating the Poor in Ireland.
Mr. HOME recommended that the suggestion of the
Right lion. Baronet (Sir John Newport), fcr having a
large central, instead of scattered establishments, should
be attended to and he was sure that an impression had

gone forth, that all these grants were applied exchisively
to the education of Protestants, without allowingsCatho-
lies to partake of the advantages arising from them.
The Resolution was agreed to.
The next motion was to grant 27,0001. for the support
of the Foundling Hospital in Dublin.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT complained of some severe
restrictions in this establishment. "
Mr. PEEL said it had been found necessary to restrict
the admission of children into this establishment in the
winter months, because it bad been found that when
children were. sent away in that severe season, from a
great distance not being under the care of their mothers,
they died before the persons appointed to convey them
arrived in Dublin.
Mr. MONCK said that this hospital contributed to the
increase of crime. He was assured that there was
scarcely a servant girl in Dublin who had not two or
three children ; and that this profligate conduct proceed-
ed from the facility by which they could get rid of them
in the Foundling Hospital.
Time Resolutions were agreed to.
The Committee next voted the sum of 19,000!. for the
House of Industry in Dublin.
Also 4,5001. for the Richmond Asylum.
Also 7,5001. for the Hibernian Society for soldiers'
childreo.
Mr. HUME observed that if this grant were made, si•
milar ones ought to pass in favour of Scotland.
1,600/. for the Hibernian Marine School.
Also 1,9301. for the Female Orphan House, Dublin.
Mr. HUMEopposed this grant, on the ground that if
the entire poor of Ireland mild nut be supported by the
beneficence oilTarliament, the public ought not to be
taxed to support the small portion who could be benefit-
ted by this sum.
Mr. GRATTAN said he should be sorry to see any
reduction in this grant. as he was himself satisfied it was
expended for the benefit of those contemplated under the
motion.
Mr. MONCK agreed with the sound principles on
which the reasoning of the Member for Ab-rdeen rested.
Though we gave the poor eight or ten millions, it would
not suffice to remove the miseries to which numbers of
them would still be exposed.
Sir J. NEWPORT contended that the riches of Ire-
land being withdrawn by the absentees since the Union,
was a cause which might be assigned for the great num-
ber of poor there was there to be supported. While three
millions of rent was &limn from the population of that
country, it was not to be wondered at, that poverty pre-
vailed there to the extent it did.
Mr. Secretary PEEL declared, that no city in the
world Well more charitable than Dublin. There was no
city in which the demands of private charity were more
liberally complied with. He had presided at meetings
there, where 600!. or WO/. had been promptly obtained
for the relief of the poor.
Mr. HUME repeated his arguments against these cha-
ritable grants as productive of great evil.
After a few words from Mr. DAWSON and Mr.
MONCK, the Resolution was agreed to.
Resolutions were then agreed to for granting 2,6801.
for the Westmorland Lock Hospital; 2,8001. for the Ly-
inm-in-Hospital ; 1,400/. for Doctor Stevens's Hospital ;
3.1792/. for the Fever Hospital, Cork-street; 300!. for the
Hospital for incurables; and 8,9231. for the Roman Ca-
tholic Seminary.
The sum of 2,000/. for the Royal Cork Institution was,
after some discussion between Sir J. NEWPORT, Mr.
Prea, and Mr. Hcats, agreed to.
The sum of 7,000/. for the Dublin Society House was
proposed, when
Mr. HUME observed, that this was voting to little
purpose. This Institution bad been founded in 1731,
for agricultural purpo es, but it was now appropriated to
the fine arts. He called upon the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Goulburn) to state the great literary productions of
this Society since last year. He knew it to be a place where
newspapers were taken in and read, but could not find
any publications of merit.
Mr. GOULBURN said the Hon. Gentleman did not
sufficiently inform himself on this subject. There were
six professional gentlemen who gave lectures in Botany,
Chemistry, Natural History, &c. Many improvements
in different branches of science were matte there. Draw-
ing and sculpture had made great proficiency under the
instruction given: and a part of the money now voted
would be appropriated to sending two young men to
Rome, who had made considerable progress in painting
and sculpture.
Mr. HUME said the productions of this Society were
of the most childish descriptions. If no other advantage
could be shown than those arising from the lectures, and
the sending of sculptors to Rome, he thought the grant
badly expended. He concluded by saying he would now
propose the abolition of half this grant for the present,
and next year lie hoped the whole would be abolished.
After some further discussion, the motion was agreed to.
'rhe sum of 9,230/. was voted for the building of
Churches in Ireland.
Lord A. HAMILTON could not agree to this motion,
as the Church Establishment in Ireland was much
greater than it should be, and the funds for its support
were already large in proportion to the service done.—
Several parishes were without a Clergyman. Lord
Blaney could not get service performed fur three years.
The Honourable Gentleman concluded by saying this
grant should not come from the pockets of English-
men.
Mr. GOULBURN observed, in the parish to which
Lord Blaney's application related, there was a curate.—
That application was for the purpose of enforcing the re-
sidence of a rector.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed that Lord Blaney
complained, that, during the absence of Church ser-
vice, a defalcation of three thousand persons took
place.—lt was rather a singular fact, that the Bishop of
Ralik', did not compel a Clergyman in his Diocese to
build a glebe house, though he had glebe land to the
extent of 2,000 acres. A Church so largely endowed,
and already in possession of funds sufficiently ample
for every Christian purpose, should not disgrace them-
Selves by coming to Parliament and demanding further
assistance.
Mr. HUME said he could not suffer the statement
that the Clergy and the Government had done every
thing in their power to correct abuses, because be did
not believe that such was the fact. Since 1600 no less
than 703,924/. bad been expended in building glebe
houses. 0 n that account he would certainly oppose the
grant, and take the sense of the House on it.
Mr. W. SMITH thought, that those who called for
such grants from Parliament were the worst friends of
the Clergy and Church of Ireland, which could not last
much longer as it now was. He understood that the
Catholics were increasing in Ireland, while the Protest-
ants, for whom this enormous establishment was kept up,
were decreasing in number.
Mr. GRATTAN bore testimony to the. frightful de-
crease of the Protestants of Ireland, which was to be
mainly attributed to the great wealth of the Clergy. The
poorer they were the better for the Cherch. When Gen-
tlemen put forward religion in so popular .a way as
through the medium of taxation, it was not to be won-
dered that the number of Catholics had increased so
much. This was one of the caures of the disturbed state
of the country.
Mr. GOULBURN, in reply, said that the grant was
simply to advance money for the building of the glebe
houses, which was afterwards recovered by instalments
from the incumbent. If the Protestants decreased, it
was only in those places where there were no parish
churches; but where there was a parish church, and a
Minister, there was no instance in which the zeal of the

♦RR.

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Minister did not make a Prote4tant vpulation. The.

vete would not add to the emolumentstifilte church, kin ,1

he proposed it only because- he thought it wou:d caner
a lastjug benefit upon Ireland.
Sir JOIIN NEWPORT said that, no later than ISIS, six

vicarages were united into one benefice, which nlace.l many
Protestants at a disiance of 16 or 17 miles from the rrisit

church. This was an authority which no persons ought to
be permitted to exercise. In the ensuing Session he would
certainly take the opportunity of moving fur a Committee to
examine the state of the Church Establishment in Irelath:,
and then it would be seen whether he was right or wrong in
his statements. . .

Mr. BANKS, as well as we could catch his observation;,
said that such a motion would he very desirable.
After a desultory conversation, in which Mr. Hums, Sir J.
NEWPORT, Mr. S. RICE, Mr. MONCK, and Mr. R. Suitit
took a part, the gallery was cleared for a division, when tie
numbers were—For the grant, 43—Against it, 19—Nlajority
for the grant, 24.
The next vote was for KIWI. to the Commissioners of
wide streets, for completing improvements in tke City of
Dublin.
Mr. HUME objected to this grant, on the ground that
the Commissioners levied a tax on C 06115 in Drbliu. the pro-
duce of which ought to suffice for all reasonable impro: e-
latent,.
Mr. GOULBURN said, he was sure no sincere friend
Ireland would throw any obstruction in the way of the im-
provement of its metropolis. So far from putt•ug limit, to
the labours of these Gentlemen, it was in contemplation to
extend them. This grant had been regularly wade by t:

Irish Parliament.
Mr. RICE adverted to the abuses which crept into the
application of these moneys.
Mr. PEEL upheld the grant es necessary to remove swop
'mistimes, and render the city of Dublin healthful at well as
beautiful.
Mr. RCMP: wished the grant not to exceed the sum vote.'
by the Irish Parliament for the same purpos..
After souse observation* from 51r. GOL'LIICRN in re-
ply, the grant was agreed to.
2,5110 i. was proposed for defraying the expenses of t':e
Fanning Society of Ireland.
Mr. HUME repeated the objections he had tak•i to
this societylast year, on the ground of its total inu.il.ty.

—Agreed to.
300/. was proposed for the Royal Irish Academy.
Mr. HUME contended that the funds of the Farming.
Society should be converted to the support of !his,
which was the more useful iosti•ution of the two.—Vwe
agreed to.
500. to the Commissioners of Charitable Bequests anti
Donations.
Mr. RICE protested against the existence of these Com-
missioners. They did no good, and imposed a heavy CY-
pense on the country.—Vote agreed to.
8,385/. was proposed for the Society for Discounte-
nancing Vice.
On the suggestion of Mr. S. RICE, this vote was post-
poned.
19,9391. to the Trustee of Linen Manufactures in Ire-
land, in aid of the said manufacture.
Mr. MA BERLY wished to see this grant discontinued,
as he did not consider the linen trade was promoted by
the bounties.
Mr.tiOULBURN said these bounties had been recom-
mended by the Irish Linen Committee. The object of
the bounties was to put the linen trade on the 541/1e foot-
ing in the South, as in the North of Ireland.
The vote was then agreed to.
16,1071. was proposed to defray the expenses of the
Board of Works in Ireland.
Mr. HUME asked how many of these Commissioners
there were at present ?
Mr. GOULBURN said that the vacancies which oc-
curred at the Board by deaths or resignations, were not
to be again filled np.—Vote agreed to.
17,3011. was proposed for the expenses of Stationery iu
the Public Offices in Ireland.
After some discussion between Mr. Mananir, Mr.
Home, and Mr. S. Rica, who objected to the terms up.in
which paper was furnished by a Patentee in Ireland, and
Mr. GOULBURN and Mr. Pun, who defended the grant,
the vote was agreed to.
Mr. GOULBURN was about to bring forward other
estimates, when
Mr. HUME observed that it was already past the hour
at which the House usually sat.
The House then resumed ; the Chairman reported pr. -
greys, and obtained leave to sit again.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed tr,
, and at a Quarter before One o'clock the House
journed.

MAILS.
DUE. AIR. Mr.
0 O. . Holland V
Waterford. .1 0... liambro It
Jerae3r....o I.... France
0....1.i5b0n I 0....F1andera.......0
0. ...Gottenbarg 0 0.... Malta .O

PRICE OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK.
Bank Stock lndia Stock
S per Ct. Red 731 76 Ditto Bonds 30s. 31s. —sem.
3 p.Ct.Cons .....79!11 771 Ex.8i11.211.
31 per Cent ssil wow. (—s Ms 17cpti:
4 per Cents 94114 ----woe. sl5 17s —. pm.
New Fours .... .. 901 97 Small 13.317 s —spas
Long Ann...... .. .. 19,11 Lottery Tickets .
Imp. S per CI ) Con.forAect... .751 761171

Mte *tateontan.

SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 12, les.

PARLIAMENTARY COMMENTARY.
In the Loans, Lord Leedom moved for an account of
the application of the money issued last Session for the
relief of the Irish. He thought that the aczotant crught
to be laid before the House, in order that it might know
what bad been done with the money. We shall be very
anxious to see this account ; we always like these Par-
liamentary accounts, of all sorts. They are so short;
so neat; so clear ; so satisfactory ! But Irish Parlia•
mentary accounts, above all things, are our delight;
and more especially when they relate to money. They
are always, then, so correct ; so candid and so explicit!
However, we shall see this account. We have heard
talk rs! Flemish accounts; but we defy the Flemish to
beat the Irish. Admiration of the world as we arc,
we excite its envy by nothing so much as by these

accounts.
I ttth e COMMONS, there was a Petition presented from the
Grand Jury of the County 'lithe City of Dublin. This Petiti-
on, which was presented by Mr. Wetherell, complained of
the conduct of the Attorney-General. Plunkett,as having
accused them of acting contrary to their oaths; and they
pray the House to adopt whatever may be deemed neces-
sary to prevent the recurrence of snch an evil. Mr. Plunkett
rose after the presenting of the Petition. He made a
speech of considerable length. He retorted pretty bang'.
somely upon the Jury. Nobody rose to reply, and the pi.
tition was received. Mr. Plunkett said, that he could co-.
sider the petition of the Grand Jury as nothing mote
than a make weight to the charge that was to be pre.
ferred on Tuesday se'nnight.—We most confess, that,
if we felt any friendship fur Mr. Plunkett, he would be
an object of our profound compassion. From the very
lirst•(and our readers will recollect it) we expressed out

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abhorrence of the ex-ofScio information. It was mach a
terrible precedent to introduce! If this precedent had
been adopted, we should have been the admiration of sur-
rounding nations with a vengeance ! The bottle .tort',
and the rattle story, had a mixture of ridicule in them.
When they were swelled out into an affair of high
treason they became laughable; and that was all ; but
this ex-officio information coming to supply the place of
the finding of a Grand Jury; and that, too, after the
Brand Jury had been tried: this was something to
frighten onc, indeed. If this were suffered to go on, it
was pretty clear that the word Jery might as well be
blotted out of the Dictionary. We never approved of
the conduct of the Orange-men, though we have always
thought it hypocrisy to accuse them of violence', when
they really do no more than stoutly adhere to the
Protestant Church and the Protestant system. Look
at the list of sums of money voted last night,
for all manner of things in Ireland ; for literary institu-
tions, as they are called ; for all manner of things, is
short; but look, particularly, at the sum of nine thou-
sand two hundred and thirty pounds for the building•
and repairing of Churches, and the building 0-Parson-
age-Houses, and the purchasing of Glebe-Lands for
the Parsons, in Ireland! ! ! Yes, in that Ireland,
where the Church is already such an intolerable burden,
and where one man out of one hundred never goes near
. the Church! Only think of this. Not only have they
all the tithes of all Ireland; not only have they all the
Glebe•Land that is there already ; not only have they all
the immense landed possessions called Church Property;
rot only have they all these, and that, too, when ninety
Line hundredths of the people are Catholics, and will
not go near their Churches ; but, here are we, taxed
to the amount of nine thousand and odd poundsthis year,
and every year we are taxed more or less, for money
to be given to these people, over and above all
Vie immense sums which they swallow up in other
ways !—I s not this enough to make us boil with rage; to
snake us tear oar flesh off our bones? Oh, no ! It is
much better to keg p ourselves cool. It is much better
to show coolly how the thing works; to show, that out
of the eighteen Irish Bishops, there are twelve belong-
ing to noble families, and that there were thirteen
before the pious Percy Jocelyn formed that too strict
alliance with the Soldier, which cost his bail as
much money as Mary Ann Carlile has to pay in the
shape of tine! Oh, blessed THING! No, no. It
is foolish to get into a rage. Let it work on ; but,
while this THING is thus working on, while this
Irish Church is to get this sum voted to it out of
the taxes raised in England, what base hypocrisy it is to
pretend that the Orange-men have something so offensive
about them, and something too, which is contrary to the
spirit and disposition of the famous THING itself ; what
abominable hypocrisy to pretend that the Orange-men do
any thing more than simply express the feelings of the
THING. What whim led to an attempt to prevent the
Orange-men from making their usual exhibitions we
know not. It was a whim, certainly ; and it was a mat-
ter of very little interest to the public ; bat, if out of
this had come a precedent for bringing men to trial
upon ex-officio informations, it would have been a seri-
ous matter, indeed. Orangemen or Devils, we are not for
t eating them in this sort of way. The dead weight project
was before the House last nigh►. The bargain with the
Bank was found fault of by Mr. Hume and Mr. Baring.
But, it is a matter of no earthly interest to thepublic. This
dead weight is a part of the national debt. It is a
part of the sum contracted to be paid on account
of the late war. It amounts, annually, to very
nearly twice as much as the whole of the interest
of the whole of the French National Debt! That is
enough for you, Parsons! That is enough for you,
Irish Bishops ! That is enough for you, Oaten and Old
Sarum !—Hear distinctly w hat I say : this dead weight
costs England twice as much annually as the whole of
the French National Debt annually costs the people of
France!! Read that, Gatton and Old Sarum. Tne pom-
pons Jolterheads, in blue coats with yellow buttons, and
in leather breeches, whose tender feelings for hares and
pheasants are so well known, read that! And, as you
read it, recollect how insolent you were in ISlS.—This
" dead weight" is a most charming appellation ! We
hope it will never be given up; and, indeed, will take
rare that it shall net.

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