The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-04 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN

namely, that the frequent discussion of this Orange ques-
tion, and indeed of all other Irish questions, could not
be otherwise than advantageous to England and Ireland.
(Hear, hear.) With the advice, then, of some friends in
whose judgment he reposed entire confidence, he gave
'notice of the motion,and he wished now to state that its
object was to inquire into the origin, progress, and ge-
neral condition of Orange Lodges in Ireland, with an
ulterior view of inducing this house to declare that the
toleration of such societies is distinct from the Irish Go-
vernment, meaning thereby the general system by which
that country bad been long governed. The grounds
upon which be went applied exclusively to the general
principle of Orangeisui in Ireland; but it would leave
the particular case in which the Right Hon. Gestlesnan
was concerned wholty itutouehel The two cases were
as distinct as po,sible. The only relation which they
bore to each other was, that bis (Mr. A.'s) motion was
intended not to injure the Right Hon. Gentleman's case,
but, on the contrary, to assist him in his defence.—
(Hear.) —These were the views with which be was bring-
ing forward the motion, bat he had acted without any
concert with the Right Hon. Gentleman, lest such con-
cert should hereafter be urged against the measure. His
surprise, therefore, was the greater, to have an applica-
tion now made to him to postpone a motion the day be-
fore be meant to hang it on. Added to the considera-
tions which he had mentioned, there were many Gentle-
men from Ireland who had remained in this country in
expectation of this motion, and without being able to
give some satisfactory reason to them, he could not con-
sent ,o postpone the motion.
Mr. HUTCHINSON agreed with the Hon. Member
who spoke last, in the propriety of bringing this subject
belbre the house without delay. With this view, /bete-
fore, and in order to give the question all the considera-
tion which it deserved, be suggested to the Hen. Mem-
ber for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) and the Hon. Member for
Sandwich (Mr. Marryatt), to postpone their motions,
which stood for tomorrow, to some future day.
Mr. HUME said, his motion was of great importance,
but he had no objection to postpone it, if the same dis-
position was made of the other motions for to-morrow.
Mr. MARRYATT declined postponing his motion.
Mr. PLUNKETT urged the Hon. Member to defer his
motion respecting the Orange Lodges.
Mr. A BEIWROMBY then gave notice of postponing
the motion to Wednesday next.

Committee which took the National Debt Reduction Acts
into their consideration, he was induced to flatter himself
that they would not meet with any great opposition. A'
the same time he felt it to he his duty to preface those re-
, solutions by a few observaions explanatory of Isis views,
and the grounds upon which he suhruitte I them to the
bowie. It was impossible not to fe. 1 in ap t a sluing this
question, not only as great importance, hut the difficulty
that attended it—a difficnlty not arising so much from
the magnitude of the question itself, or the interest whi.
the country has in it, but from the circumstance that
whatever talents have been applied to the subject ;
however, Parliament may Is the exercised its wisdom's in
devising plans for Ilse great object in view, nevi r heless
experience informed us that those plans, on account of
the changes attendant on the immense transactions in
which this country had been engaged, constantly met
with interruption, embarrassment, and counteracion.
And this consideration, he presumed, led many to think
that it might be easy, in time of peace, to adopt a plan
for applying a surplus to the reduction of the debt ; yet
that a would he useless, because a state of things might
arise which might make it necessary to derange the whole
plan, asd even destroy the surplus itself. But this ob-
jection, he confessed, was not sufficiently weighty with
him. Because, if once the principle were to be laid
down that a plan, excellent in itself, ought not to he put
in practice, because it might be afterwards necessary to
discontinue it, there would be an end of all improvement.
Such reasoning, if followed, would paralyze the energies
of every country in the world, and prevent the introduc-
tion of any great practicable amendment, however de-
sirable. It was an argument of 'despondency. It pro-
ceeded neon the supposition that you are to do nothing
because you could not do all. If such reasoning were
just, as to the reduction of the debt, it was right as to
the reduction of taxes. He might say, what was the use
of repealing so much taxes no.v, whets it may b: come ne-
cessary in a few years to impose them again. The rea-
soning in both cases was equally sound. But whilst he
objected to this inference from the facts he had stated,
there was one inference which the Government and the
Parliament ought to draw. They ought to infer, that if
the mutability of the public stairs of a great State, and
its constant liabilities to change from a peace to war,
rendered a fixed plan difficult to be furrowed, it was
their duty to exercise a vigilant superintendence over
the expenditure of the country, with a view to strengthen
the assurance of a surplus; and that above all, it was
their duty to avoid by all means, consistently with the
honour and safety of the country, by observing a mo-
derate, firm line of policy, to ahstain from those conflicts
with other powers, which constituted the leading causes
of the difficulty of applying a surplus of revenue to
the extenuation of the public debt.—(Cheers.) On the
other hand, it was the duty of the people, and he felt as-
sured that the people would not shrink from it, when an
unjust aggression was made upon the country; when
the national honour was to be vindicated, it was the duty
of the people to submit to the necessary sacrifices to ena-
ble the Parliament to continue as long as possible the
application of a surplus of revenue. But in mentioning.
the difficulties which he fairly avowed attended the exe-
cution of the different plans fmr reducing the National
Debt, and how often experience disappointed the antici-
pationit, it was incumbent on him to look to the circum-
stances that succeeded the period of the establishment of
these plans. It was not because he was unwilling to en-
courage gloomy apprehensions, hut, upon a fair view of
the whole circumstances of the last thirty years, he con-
sidered it very unlikely that the country would ever be
placed in a similar state again. It was impassible to
think on those circumstances—tie rapidity of one event
succeeding another, baffling the calculations of th e most
experiences' and the most wise ; it was impossible to
think on these circumstances without feel:sog that there
must be something so wonderfully singular and peculiar
in those events, that it was very unlikely, and he earn-
estly prayed that they might never occur again. Feel-
ing that these events were of an uncommon kind,—he
thought himself warranted in hoping that, with a rim-
• lotion to go on steadily, applying the surplus aeciading
to an uniform plan, the like interruption would never'
occur again. Feeling that these events were of an un-
common kind, he thought himself warranted in hoping
that, with a resolution to go on steadily, applying the
surplus according t 3 an uniform plan, the like interrup-
tion would never occur again. He would now examine a
little the actual state of the National Debt as compared with
the period when it was at its highest amount ; because
they were told, and pretty confidently too, on a ume occa-
sions, that .no diminution was to be expected. He
thought he could show that this was not the case. Since
' the year 1816, when the debt was at its highest, there
had been an actual decrease of debt, which, compared
with the total capital of the debt was to be sure no gnat
sum, but certainly could never have taken place unless
there had been an actual surplus of revenue.
On the sth of January, the total amount of
, the funded debt was . £816,311,940
, The amount of the unfunded debt,includ-

ing Irish Treasury Bills, Navy BEI+, &c.
srss

43,311,336

Making a total of ,
The charge on the funded debt was . 30,323,653
The charge on the unfunded debt was . 1,986,3157

Total charge . . 32,310,015
On the sth of January, 1813, the amount of
the unfunded debt was . . . 796,530,144
The amount of the unfunded debt, including
what was technically called Exchequer De-
ficiency Bills, was . 43 526,661
The charge on the funded debt was . `2S,100,01:0
Charge on the unfunded debt 1,162,752

Total charge . £29,262,752
By deducting the amount of the funded debt for 1816
from the amount of the funded debt fur 1823, it would
he found that there was a diminution amounting to
19,781;7961. There would be found, on a comparison of
the amount of the unfunded debt for the same two pe-
riods, a decrease of 4,984 7251., making a total diminution
of 24,766,5211., or, in round numb-rs, 25,000,0001 ,
be-
ing, on the average, about 3,500 0001. for each of the
seven years. The diminution would have b.--n still great-
er, but for the mode in which the reduction of the Five
per Cents into Four per Cents was effected. It having
become necessary to pay off the dissentients immediate-
ly added 2.700,000). to the unfunded debt, whilst to
the capital of the funded was added 7,000,0001. Bat
for this operation the total reduction in the National
Debt would have been ten millions more, making
instead of twenty-five millions, a diminution of thirty-
five million•, or ■n average of five millions decrease,
instead of three million, as the average for the last seven
years, on the amount of the Public Debt. But lie would
now come to the consideration of tke charge on the debt,
a subj-ct of more imme liate interest. It would be found
on examination, that there was a diminution on -hecharge
exceeding 3,000,0001. during the same period. Would
any min say that there was not ground to warrant the
hone in expecting, that by a steady attention to a uni
form plan, their efforts could be attended with success.
It was upon these grounds that he asked the Committee
to concur with the views taken in these resolutions. He
thought, therefore, lie was entitled to assume that the
Sinking Fund might Carly start at 5.,000,01101. He did
noillthink there was any magic in that particular sum,
nor did be think Ise i Id give any reason for selecting it,
in pr. ference to any other sum, except that it was because
that amount had been about the average of the reduction
effected. and that in conformity with the resolutions of
1819, which he was bound to agnate, contained the deli-

berate, -walAnti:dite I erpiniolet of karliamint. He
therefore proposed in the first Resolution, to fix the
amount at that sum. He proposed to repeal those parts
of the Acts for the reduction of the national debt, requir-
ing certain snots to be paid over to the Commissioners
of the Sinking Fund from the Consolidated Fund.
—The sum paid between fifteen and sixteen ni 1 ions,
hut as pat of that was lent back again to Govern-
ment, and as the arrangement was rather complicated,
he thought it better to do away wilt that ma-hinery, and
sabstinite an errangemeut of greater simplicity. He
proposed to pay over annually into the hands of the Corn-
tois4 tiers tire millions—that the interest as it accrued
about:l be paid over to them also, in order to accuninz
la e at comp sund interest, sin the principle of 11r. Pttt's
original plan ; far he fully agreed with the Honourable
Member for Taunton, that little benefit would be derived
from a tilsn confining the operations to the payment of
tire inillioos inerely, without all owing the interest tu NC,
Ctiniulre. It woad be much more adviseahle to allow
the interest to go on a 'cumulating to a certain extent;
and give the public the brn•fit of the amount when'erer
Parliament might thiok lit. He proposed that the inte-
rest about 1 regularly accumulate until it reached an a-'
mount equal to one per cent., on the capital of the then
existing Fowled anal Unfunded Debt. It would he
to say witat time it would take to attain that
amount, as much &Tended on the price of the Funds, and
other circumstances. Bu: if the Revenue continued to
improve, and reductions continued to he made, the period
would he very much accelerated wbee the interest ace
eu nalated to an amount equal to one per cunt. on the
capitol of the debt, and then Parliament would decide
upon the manner in which they were to diapthe of the
sum. He thought then he was entitl-il to assinng, front
the discussions which had alrea ly taken place, that it
sins the opinion of the House dist a Sinking Fund ought
to he maintained. He thought Itimsrlf entitled to as-
sume that a redut•tion in the amount of the Debt 1:a i
taken place, and that further reductions were pc Joie.-
' tile. Add, lastly, he thong:tit himself entitled t., asstwe
tl:at .5M00,0001. was the solo at which it was reason.o.l:e
to fix its amount. He trusted dist ihs• Co timittee total
concur in these Itesulu•ions. By so mining they would
confer an inestimable benefit on Om country. They
would best enable it to recover all its strength; they
would enable it to raise itself to that sta'ion which
rendered it occasionally. the envy, but gen: rslly anal
permanelitly the admiration of surrounding nation_s.—
(Clieers.) He proposed the followinz Resolutions:—
That it is the opinion of this Comm tree, th tt the
payment of all loans of inaney whi_•h tio.v are charged
upon and issushle out of the Consolidated Fun 1 of the
United King:loin of Great Brit tie and Ireland, to the COW.
inissioners for the Reduction of the N tiousl Ucbt, shoild
upon and after the sth of April, 1625, cease and deter-
mine.

" That it is the opinion of this Cammittett, that all Ca-
pital Stock and Annuities, fur ter3 s of ye.is (.3v• and
except the Capital Stock, arising from donatto s an 1
bequests, towardsreducing the National Deb:), which, on
the sth day of April. IS23,sliall stand in the moms of tie
Cotutnissionert, for the reduction of use N oiutill D.
in the hooks of the Governor a 3 I Comp ny of the 11. t:;;
of England ; or of the South Sea Company ; or of th t
Bank of 'trawls], either on account of the Sinking. Fun ti,
or for the purchase of Lift: Anauities. should, truss
after the sth day of April, 1623, be cancelled in the books
of the said llank, and Souils Sea Company, respectively ;
and the Interest or Dividends, which would have hee3
payable on the said Capital Stock. upon or at any
tune of er the said Zitla day of April, shall re Ise to
be issued, or to be charged upon the said,Coasolida-el
Fund. _ .

_
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that upon
the sth day of April, 1b23, or as soan after as the maul
can be prepared, an account shall be laid before Parlia-
ment, showing the total amount of the unretieetue,r,
funded, and outstandinz debt in Exchequer Bills, tinprol,
vided for, of the United Kingdom, no the said sth day
of April; together with the annual charge attending
the same. And there shall from thenceforth be set apart
and issued, at the receipt of the Exchequers of Great
Britain and Ireland, out of the said Consolidate 1 Fund,
to be placed to the account of the Commissioners for the
reduction of the National Debt, the annual sum of Five
Millions, to be applied by them towards the reduction a
th..! National Debt of the United Kingdom, and which
said sum shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fnit I,
and be issued by equal quarterly payment ; the tint
quarterly payment to he charged upon the said Consoli-
, oared Fund on the sth day of April 1613.
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is
expedient that so much of the Acts of the 53,1 and slith
years of his late Majesty, relating to the redemption of
the National Debt, as require that whenever on a:nounc
of capital Funded Debt of Great Britain and Ireland re-
spectively, should have been transferred to the said Cons.
missioners, as should be equal to the whole capital, and
should produce an interest or yearly dividend Lind its
ant tent to the whole annual charge in perpetual annui•
ties of each loan contracted sing I 7srli, that a c.rrtitic tte
and declaration thereof should be made by the s tid Com-
missioners of the Amount of ;le.r. Public' Debt, to whit is
such certificate and declaration. should relate, should
from time to time be deemed to be wholly sstirfiesl art
discharged, and au equal amount o f capi al sto is
standing in the names of the said Commissioners, slitealtl
be considered to be redeemed, and should from time to
time he cancelled and repealed.
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that no ca-
pi al stock, or annuities for terms of years, which after
the sth day of April, 1623, shall be placed in the
names of the said Commissioners, in the baoks of
the Bank of England, or of the South Sea Company.
or of the Bank of Ireland, shall he cancelled (save and
except the stock placed in their names, for the
redemption of the said tax) untii the interest of the
debt redeemed by the said Comntissioners, by the ap-
plication of the said sum of 5,000,01;01. anti of bar
growing interest thereof, shall, together with the said
sum of 5,000,6001. have accumulatru to a sum,the ;mu
amount whereof &ball not be less than the one•hundredth
part of the thee existing unredeemed lauded Debt, and
outstanding unfunded Debt in Exch.quer ltpru-
videll for, of the United Kingdom taken together; and
that any capital stock, which shall be placed in the names
of the said Commissioners on accaant of the Sinking
Fund, or further purchate of Life Annuities, after the
said Sinking Fund shall amount to the one-hundredth
part of the said unredeemed fowled Debt and unfunded
Debts, taken together as afor-said, shah be liable to hr
cancelled at such limes. and in such wanner s Parla-
ment -!tall from time to time t irect

" That it isthe opiniln of dd. Coniniittee that a new
and s-parate AC. OUllt shall bey ir,ed and kept In the books
of tile Governor and Coo pany of the flank of England,
.4 the Mllll.l already given II nay of donation or horiest
towards reducing, the National Debt, and of all snots
which shall [terra:ter be given or b,tuteathecl for the like
purpose, and the interest or dividends which shall accrue
on all stock arising therefrom ehall he applied to the
purchase of Public Annuities, composing the Natio, al
Debt, for the purpore of fulfilling the oirectimis of the
perron or persons giving or betide:ailing the same, and to
no other purpose whatever.
. .

" That it i, the opinion hi this Committee. that the an-
nual i x,iense t f the Establishment in Great Britain for he
reduction of the National Debt shall he charged upon Vie
Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of tireat Britain
and Ireland.
" That it is the opinion of tiiii Committee, that the ex-
penses of the establishments necvsary for carrying into
execution ' an Act of the 48th veer of the reign of hi- late
Majesty. for enah lag the Comical:sinners of the National
Debt to grant Life Annuities, and of two Acts made in U.*