The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-05-31 00:00:00

THE .STATE MAT.

it his duly, though ftiendly to the relief of the Ca-.
flshes, to require information and prdp.r documents,
that Parliament might know what they were pro-
ceeding upon ; and he wished the information to
come from a Select Committee, whose report would
he a document. The uninformed Catholic would

then learn that the necessary testrictions were no
more then their Catholic ancestors prescribed. Even
Queen Mary could nut repeal those Acts which our
modern reformers wished to sweep week. He could

not.support this measure ; but he W(13114 no oppose
going into the Committee. if any valuable informa-
tion come out there, be should be gist' of it : but he
did not stiongly expect it. The Resolutions were
subversive of matters vital to the Constitution. He
was sure the opinions of sober-minded Catholics
were here with him, and he was sure that the Pro-
testant mind would not be satisfied.
Mr. YORKE was surprised, after the able argu-
ments of the lion. Bart. that he should be in favour
of going into a Committee. They who opposed the
Motion in 1813, were not likely to have changed
their opinions, and it was unnecessary to argue with
those who thought that the question should he con-
ceded at all hazards. Those, lie thought, who voted
in 1513 for the propositions on the principle of se-
striction, could not consistently vote for the pre-
sent resolutions. The measure of 1813 was full of
restrictions, drawn up in the most artificial way.
his Noble Friend had stated, that on minor points,
where no additional security was requisite, lie had
no objection ; but that on matters of higher im.
portaoce, he expected a complete and even addi-
tional safeguards. At th;s moment a great differ-
ence existed between the English and the Irish Ro-
man Catholics as to this question, both as to securi-
ties and as to power of the Roman See. The peti-
tions were various : some praying for the abolition
of all securities, and some for relief from all re-
striction respecting the choice of Bishops. Some
spoke of the Constitution as framed and matured by
the Catholics, by patriot Catholic Kings and Pre-
lates. The argument would be as good for Pagans
on that principle; for it was by our Pagan German
and Teutonic ancestors, that the essence of our
Constitution wai'formed. Paganism. would, in that
view of the case, stand as well as Catholicism. If
the Constitution was owing to the Catholic Sove-
reigns, perhaps it was most so to the last of them;
Henry VIII. and his daughter Mary, for instance.
lie need scarcely say any thing about James H.
Really, if the framers of such petitions understood
the British Constitution, they must understand it in
a very different way from most other people. He
feared that they did not know precisely what they
wanted. Let Gentlemen compare the present Reso-
lutions with the. Bill of last year, and contemplate
the difference. He had no hesitation in saying that
be wished to see the Catholics secured in their pos.
session of all the ordinary civil rights, and if a hill

were brought in for the purpose of altering the elist-
iug laws with reference to marriages and the transfer
Of property, he should be ready to give it his sop.
yort. The Bill brought in by the Kight Hoe. Gent.
(Mr. Grattan) provided certain securities, particu-
larly with regard to the election of Catholic Pre-
lates, of which he saw nothing in the Resolutions in.
tended to be leered by the Hon. Bart. ; but if every
thiOg was granted that was required, would the Ca-
tholics of Ireland be either conciliated or satisfied?
la—[flear, hear !]—• lie had been sorry to observe in
the proceedings of Cathotic assemblies in Ireland,
speeches and sentiments expressive of a most inrete.
tate hostility to British conuectiun. A. Gentleman
e the name of O'Connor had been described as
descended from their ancient Kings. Should the
present measure be carried, it would be treated only
with contempt by those whom it was meant to ap-
pease and gratify ; and if the House should agree to
go into the Committee, it would be necessary to
toutinue the Call even at this late period of the
Session during the transaction of business so import.
ant. He never could consent to entertain the gene-
ral question, until he knew distinctly what were the
intentions of the Romish See; and he should be
happy to know from his Noble Friend (Lord Castle-
teagh), whose opinions went farther than his own on
the expediency of concession, whether any, and
what understanding had been come to, either as to
the oath or the King's excequalur. When he last
spoke on the subject, he had not expected that the
Pope would be so soon suijuris ; but he understood
that there were how at Rome, persons deputed both
from the English and Irish Roman Catholics, who
were busily eniployed in preventing his Holiness
from coming to any decision whatever. Upon the
whole, he considered that the agitation of this ques.
tint. could effect no salutary purpose, and could
only serve to keep afloat unnecessary difference of
opinion.
Mr. KNOX observed, he had always thought that
the concession of the Catholic Claims would add

pettily to the strength and interests of the empire;
but iie bad, at the same time, always contemplated
the necessity of the roost ample security for the ex-
clusion of foreign influence. When lie had formerly
♦oted in support of those Claims, he had expected
from the circumstances of that period, that the dis-
position of the Irish Catholics and the concurrence
of the Pope would remove every reasonable objec-
tion. The prospects, however, now were by no
m:-?aris equally flattering. The Catholics appeared to
him determined, even if the concurrence of the Pope
should be obtained, to refuse every plan and ar-
rangement that could be offered, short of unlimited
and unqualified concession. The rescript of M.
Quarantotii had been received, not with gratitude,

but with disdain. New scruples instantly arose as
to the provisions of a civil nature, and their whole
conduct appeareJ to have no other view than that of
keeping the question alive for the purpose of foment-

. .
ing sedition and disaffection among the people.—
[Hear, bear 11—He should vote against the motion,
' from the persuasion that it was impossible, in the de-
graded subserviency to which the Catholic popula.
lion was reduced, under the domination of a few de-
signing men, who were labouring to blast both their
popes abd the hopes of their posterity, to concede
any thing that would he received with gratitude, or
'that would inspire a spirit of conciliation.
• Mr. M. FITZGERALD could not agree iti the
proposition of a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Yorke), that the sentiments of a majority of that
Hons. ought never to experience any change, nor
could he believe that the House was so deaf to the

soice of rea,son and liberality as to be inexorably
lived en withholding what Was demanded, not only
by the principles of toleration, but what the Con-
stitution bud, in his judgment, guaranteed to loyal
subjects. Tho preamble of the Petition claimed no.
thing as matter of positive or indisputable right ; it
submitted only the justice and wisdom of Portiament the full extent of the opinions, the hopes, and
wishes of his MajestY's Roman Catholic subjects.—
He could not think the period of the season too
far advanced for going into a consideration of the
subject, as. the Right Honourable Gentleman was ,
himself favourable to the minor concessions, and a I
Bill might ttierefore be passed, almost unanimously,
ua far as related to them, and another Bill referring
to the mote leading objects of the Petition might be
introduced, and stand over for deliberation. Het
had heard much of the language employed out of
doors, and of the dissensions prevailing amongst the.
Catholics themselves; but, he would ask, were
these groutuls• on which Parliament ought to legi.i
slate [Hear, hear I—lf1—If the Petitioners prayed:
for unrestricted concession, they did not mean to
dictate to the House, any more than his Honour-
able Friend meant to tie up the discretion of a Come
mittee by.his Resolutions. Ile conceived that the
Honourable Baronet (Sir J. C. Hippisley) who, he•
had always supposed, had been an active and ener..
getic friend to the Catholic Cause, but who had that
day almost called in question its leading principle,
had entered into the discussion of details rather pre-
maturely. He understood too, that a highly respect-
able Prelate was on his way from Rome, with a do-
comeut of the highest importance, and which was
likely to give full satisfaction to his Majesty's Go.
vernment : this Paper might be examined, if the
House should agree to go into the 'Committee.— -
With respect to the Veto itself, his opinion had.
never changed. He objeated,to it as leading to mis-
chievous consequences, by giving to a Protestant Go-
vernment and to Protestant politicians an interfer-
ence in the patronage of a Catholic Church. The
language used by some individuals out of doors, he
ceusidered as having no connection o Rh the real
merits of this question ; but it might justify him in
referring to those prophecies and waruings which
had so often suggested the danger of producing irri-
tati.in by delay, and of throwing the Catholic popu-
lation into the hands of men who aimed at causing
violence and agitation.—[Hear, hear .I—The Ca-
tholic Question was to theM their.great weapon of
office; by conceding the claims, that weapon would
fall harmless from their hands. Was the greet mass
of the population, including all the deserving, to
have their Petitions rejected, and their interests over-
looked, on. account of the inflammation produced by
thri mischievous efforts of a few ?---Were the higher
orders, who were most interested, to be punished
for ate misconduct or irregularities of the lower ?
Nobody could deplore morodeeply thin himself the
conduct of the Catholics to big Right Honourable
Friend (Mr. Grattan). He was confident, how.
ever, that this would afford no motive to hi 3 Right
Horrourable Friend for any abatement of his zeal in
this great cause. Those generous and splendid ef.
forts which he hod already made, bad never been
exciied by popular applause, nor would they he
knew betel nonrated by popular ingratitude.H. Hear,
hewr ri—To him belonged the glory of having, is
fact, established the great principle of the question,
as well as of those subordinate concessions which he
had conquered from the good sense of the legisla.
tore. Before he sat dowit, he wished to observe,
that if the Petition of the English Catholics had not
been signed by the leading individuals and nobility of
that persuasion, it had been signed by a great num.
ber of respectable and wealthy persons. The same
observation would apply to the Petition of the Irish
Catholics. In his county it had been signed by all
the principal proprietors, except three, two of
whom held offices under Government. Whatever
differences of opinion might exist amongst them, all
approved of the principle of the measure, and were
virtually Petitioners at the bar of the (louse.
Mr. Serjeant BEST by no means conceived that
when the House, in a former Session, voted for
going into a Committee, they then intended to pledge
themselves to concede tc the Catholics every thing
that they thought proper to ask. He was sure the
Right lion. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Canning)
was not at that time disposed to concede their claims,
without what he conceived sufficient securities for the
Protestant establishment. The securities which he,
then proposed were now withdrawn. Krell those'
securities which were then offered, did not appear to
the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Speaker), and to ;
many other Members of the House, to be sufficient.
There were sense things in those Resolutions that
might be very proper to grant. As to what related
to the army, he thought it might be proper to grant
what was sought ; but there was no occasion, on this:
account, to go into a Committee to consider the COI.
tholic claims in general. If a short Bill was brought
in to remedy some of the evils complained of, he
should be eery happy to support it. As far as he
recollected, when the question was brought forward;
the last time, the claim of right was very prudently
kept back. The question was, however, now brought
forward as a claim of right, which could not be
withheld without the most manifest injustice. %S'hen
the highest authority in the Catholic Church, who
was now restored to the Papal Throne, informed the'
Catholics of Ireland, that the securities required
were not inconsistent with their religion, on what
principle could they resist them, unless they. were;
fully determined to bring forward their claims in
such a shape that they must be rejected.? The Ca.
tholic people of Ireland could not pretend to set up ;
their opinion of the Catholic religion against those oti
the acknowledged head of their church. A Catholic
Prelate (Dr. Milner) had, in one of his publications, i
said, " that although in ordinary cases Kings could
lint be deposed by Papal authority ; yet no man
could say what was the power of the Pope in ex-
traordinary cases for the prevention of heresy." It
appeared to him that it would he better to postpone
this question altogether, until the Pope, after being
restored to his Throne, should state expressly what
was the extent of his civil. power. It was by no
means an antiquated doctrine, that oaths taken
against the interests of the chords were null and
void. He saw no occasion to go into a Committee
on the Catholic Claims, when the Houstrwas given
clearly to understand, that the Catholics would not
be satisfied with any thing short of the whole of their

demands. The House was, therefore, perfectly com-
petent to judge whether they were prepared to grant
the whole of those claims. If they were not, it v odd
be a mere waste of time to go into the Committee.
Mr. PONSONBV.—" I have so frequently de.
livered my sentiments upon the Catholic Claims, in
former debates, that I do nut think it necessary to
enter at any length upon the subject this night, con-
ceiving, as I do, that a repetition of my arguments
would be ns disgusting to the house as irksome to
myself-1 shall therefore only offer a few reasons for
the rote which I shall give for going into the Com-
mittee. At the same time I am ready to •acknow.
ledge that the time and mode of introducing this sobs
ject is not the most judicious.----rilears hear Pl—ln
voting for going into the Committee, in order to
afford the House an opportunity of considering the
question in all its bearings, however, I do not conS'
sider myself as held bound in the smallest degree to
any one of the Resolutions proposed by the Hon.
Baronet. It would he a strange perversion of the
ordinary course of Parliamentary proceedings, if be-
cause in agreeing to a Committee, it was known that
, certain specific propositions were to be submitted in
that Committee, that those who had voted for the
Committee were of consequence to be bound to adopt
those specific propositions.—[hear, hear !]—l ap-
prehend the very reverse is the case, for the essence
and object of every Committee is to examine, in de.:
tail, the subject which shall be submitted to their
consideration ; and without such examination they
cannot, of course, be considered as giving those de..
tails their assent. The Honourable and Learned
Gentleman who spoke last has admitted, that relief
to a certain extent is due to the Catholics of Ireland,,
and has expressed his readiness to give his feeble aid !
towards introducing a Bill for attaining this end—
he,
at the same time, however, utterly disapproves
of any Committee been formed. Now, if the lion.
and Learned Gentleman had been at all acquainted
with the rules and usages of Parliament, he would
have found that to introduce such a Bill, without a
Committee, would be utterly impracticable, as the
invariable rule is, to submit such questions to the
consideration of a Committee, before the House is
moved for leave to bring in the Bill. Insomuch,
therefore, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's.
observations are favourable to the Resolutions before'
us. In voting for the Committee, I hold myself as
free to decide on the merits of . the specific proposi-
tions to be discussed, as he who is determined to
vote against them but it is not because I disap.
prove of the conduct of the Petitioners,.thaf I am
therefore to oppose the Committee. The Honour-
ably and Learned Gentleman says the Catholics, on
this occasion, have come forward with positive de.
mends, less than which will not satisfy them. I
protest against being supposed in any degree'(
pledged to what is ca;led the demands of the Ca-
tholics.
The question for consideration now, how.
. ever, involves not merely the interests of the Ca-
tholics or the Protestants,. but the freedom, and the
happiness, and the welfare of the whole community.
I cannot, because any particular individuals have
been guilty of indiscretion, deny that which is due
to the prosperity of the community at large.—
[Hear, hear !]—The Catholics may demand what
titter please; but no Member is bound to concede
more than he may. think proper. It is natural where
a great deal is due, that a great deal should
,be de-
manded ; but because there is a universality of de.
mend, it does not therefore follow there shall be a
universality of concession. My opinion now, how.
ever, as it has always been, is, that the measure it-
self is the greatest security which this country can
have.—[llcar, hear!]—I think that the Catholics
would have acted wisely, prudently, and with judg-
ment, if, in seeking the accomplishment of. their de.
sires, they had acted consistently with the wishes, or
the pleasures, or the prejudices of the Protestants,
and this I have declared upon more occasions than
one. Were a consideration of the conduct of the
Catholics to bias my vote upon this occasion, whets
consider the course which they have pursued towards
my Right lion. and highly-respected Friend (Mr, H.
Grattan) it would place me in the list of their one.
Wes. To him they owed more than to any othei
men alive. and yet how did they pay dulls debt of
• gratitude ? I am persuaded, however, whateses may
have beets the motives by which they were actuated,
I or however ill counselled they may have been, the
' the feelings of his great mind have not been altered,
and that their conduct has mide as little impression
upon him as it has upon me.—[(/ear, hear n—in
considering the question itself, the proceedings of the
Catholics will not induce him or me to vote against
the consideration of a subject iu which I conceive the
highest interests of this country are involved. . UpOn
these grontids I shall vote for going into the Corn.
mittee ; but, I repeat, in a'seeding to the MO'figt for
this purpose, I pledge myself to no distinct opinion
as to the propositions which my lion. Friend (Sir 11.
Parnell) may think proper to propose."
Mr. PEEL thought that it would be alerogstory to
the honour and dighity of Parliament to go into a
Committee, when there was not the least chattre of
one thing they could do being satisfactory to the
Petitioners. On former occasions, it was alavays in
their contemplation that some arrangement might be
made which would give satisfaction. They were
now expressly given to understand, that nothing
would be satisfactory, except agreeing to those'Reso.
'tithing, and to the Bill which the Catholics, to sate
them the trouble of legislation, had 'sent reedy
drawn. The lion. Baronet had assured the House,
that if those Resolutions were agreed to, they might
depend on Catholic gratitude. When this Catholic
gratitude, however, was promised, it Mat impost.
isle not to recollect the conduct of that body to the
Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan). When the
Hon. Baronet had represented, that on that account
it was not worth squabbling about securities, he could
not avoid rrferring to the public prints, which might,
in sometlegree, be considered as their Gazettes. In
the report made to the Catholic Association, by Mr.
O'Connel (a very leading matt among the Catholics),
that Gent. stated that the Hoe. Baronet (Sir 11. Par-
nell) had with great cheerfulness undertaken to pre-
sent their Petition under the conditions and terms
that were suggested to him.
Sir H. PARNELL rose to mder, and said the
statement in the paper was materially incorrect.
Mr. PEEL said, that it was however certain that
it was the Sub-Committee of this Association which
had waited ou the Hun. Baronet. lie then described

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occasion.
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-r•ammsa.....••••:eamors......M••••••••••ititnpo
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this Association as comPlced of the "Me :lei :list
who sat in the Catholic Convention, and alierwarda
in the Catholic Board, both which essembctiaetsboetaidc.
been put down as unlawful. As to the cnrehrt
of this Catholic Board or Coneentintivi,teh eezwpoenelilsneof
peal to every min who knew the state of irelaild efi.
the 14st-three years. He would appeal in
Jurors, who had almost enattimqiisly letitioned
against them. He would appeal To their art of se.
pointing a Committee, to consider of an application
to the Cortes of Spain. This Board had also or.
pinked parochial subscriptions for
teose Petiti Ins, to which
householder was obliged' to• Thole'
who did not pay it were entered &len ac having re.
fused to pay. He tit es read several stroner,,„..
from the speeches of Mr. O'Connell,!
simply to be considered el an individual, but s' mae.
individull who, above all others, enjoyed
!share of confidence of the Ceiholica. In commeniink
upon the 'Nemeses which followed a vote in that;.
House, he used the followieg expressions : " Let the
Catholic of Ireland remember the ruffian shout of
English insolence upon that
the last shout of English insolence and triumph over
this fallen and degraded country." lie then read
many passages front this Gentleman's speeches, to
show how little spirit of conciliation there was among
the leaders of the Catholics in Ireland. The
Hon. Gentlemen then adverted to the Resolution of
the Catholic Board, in 1813, and which was prefaced
by the notorious speech of Dr. Dromgoole, from
which the Right lion. Gentleman extracted those
passages in which the Doctor seemed to predict the
approaching ruin of the Established Church, and
exult over the prospect. This very leareek prefaced
a Resolution adopted by the Board, in which they
declared,ln reference to the Bill then before Parlia.
ment for their relief, that nothing but entire freedom
from every sort of restriction would satisfy their
claims. On the same Bill the Catholic Pielatesie
Ireland came to a Resolution, that its prescriptions
were absolutely incompatible with the Constitution
of their Church, and voted their thanks to Dr. Mil.
tier as their incorruptible agent, and strenuous chem.
! pion, because lie had circulated a Paper to that elect.
I These, then, were not the doctrines of a .solitery in.
dividual or too, but of the great body of the
Cathn-
lics, and while they prevailed it was utterly hopeless
to expect any final or satisfactory arrangement.
Sir JOHN' NEWPORT said, that looking most
anxiously, as he did, to the tranquillity of Ireland,
land looking also to_ the buryiug in oblivion, as far as
possible, the animosities which existed between that
country and this, he conceived that it was of the et-
most importance the motion of his Hon. Friend (Sir
H. Parnell) should be acceded to. At a season of
foreign danger, and when the country was celled up-
on to enter into foreign subsidies for herldefenre,
and when a proper policy would dictate the necessi.
ty of making all their domestic resources suitable,
it was surely most unjustifiable in every point of
view, to seize that moment above all others, to re-
ject, +without either enquiry or examinetion, the con.
• siderotion of grievances affecting so large a portion
of the people : the only effect of such a line of con-
,duct •would he, the paralyzation of steads nee third
of the strength of the Empire, ate moment weir.d rho
energies of all were essential to Itf locality. The
question was not, as had been stated by the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite, whether the House would
grant all the claims of the petitioners, but whether
they would go into the consideration of the restric-
tions by which they were affected, a part of which at
least it was on all hands admitted, ought to be re.
moved.—[hear .9—The Right Hon. Geittlenian
(Mr. Peek), however, .it was evident, would incur
any sacrifice sooner than manifest the slightest regard
to the claims of this portion of his Majesty's sub-
jects. ,He had loudly dechteedi that no particle of
satirfactioe would result to .the Catholic Body of
Ireland, if the question were sent to a Commit-
tee—that they were under the guidance of agi-
tators, whose object wits any thing hut concilia-
lean, and that it was in vain to attempt a course
of procei;ding which would totally fail of the effect
which Rs advocates sought to produce. Now
he (Sit Jobe Newport) was of quite a differed
opinion es.to.lltat which ought to regulate their con-
duct, for be thought there could be no surer way of
discouraging the people from the bondage of those
who were styled• Agitators, than by 'calmly and dis.
' passionately eensiderfog and remeilsing the evils
which confessedly existed.—[Hear, hear!]— If the
contrary step were adopted, that violence which they
all censured or lenieuted would only be exposed to
a prolonged duration. It was necessary to he re-
collected, that the main points in agitation were
those which aifected the political character of the
upper classes in society—the lower ones only felt
them in as int:ch as they regarded the pride and
Station of thier seoerinrs—the extension pf the elec-
tive frartrise had already conferred power on that
portion of thy' cornmwrity whose efforts'were most
to he feared. This privilege could :not he recalled
influence- cored- tier' be IcirceinsFrited ; and
instead of keeping it in its natural chaunel, our op.
position of the natute held forth agiiiivt any adjus.
mint of those claims, would only confirm that
which was described as a radical evil, and still
more strongly lead to .he perpetuity of contentions,
which could teretinate in no good purpose. Whets
Gentlemen talked of concession, they should con-
'eider how little this salutary object was-forwarded
by some of those who opposed the present motion.--
How was concession to be effected, when One ot
the principal Members of his Majesty's Govern.
ment urged the intemperate expressions which had
been casually selected from individuals in Ireland,
instead of entering upon the consideration of the real
merits of the case, and probing the vital character
of a great measure, which ought to be decided upon
sound judgment, not evanescent feeling, and in the
discoesion of which all mean and unworthy feelings,
no matter what their origin may he, should be
wholly overlooked ? in going into a Committee, they
were slot hound to adopt any distinct Course; they
were merely obeying the dictates of good sense, pru-
dence, and propriety, by entering upon 4 fair amd
dispassionate extimination of restrictive lags, which
retarded the general interests of the empire. This
Committee would be neither hound by a single pro-
elition, nor by the views of any individual Member,
it would be open and commits to all for n'ie nitre.
duction of particular opinions, and it would be coot-