The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-18 00:00:00

NATIONAL DEBT REDUCTION BILL.

On the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moving
the Order fifths Day for the third reading of the National
Debt Reduction Bill,
BENNE'r celled upon Ministers, as this was
the lest opportunity he should have, tcf comply with the re-
peated demands of the people for a reduction of taxation,
by applying the real surplus of the revenee to that par-
pose. At present there was no Slaking Fund. and even if
there was a reel surplus of ths amount stated, eppitssaist• to
a Sinking Fund, it was questionable if the plan proposed
would be likely to carry it into effect. , He deprecated the
violation of Mr. Pitt's pledge, that the Sinking Fund should
not be applied to any other object than a redaction of the
debt, and contended that the Sinking Fund should he put
beyond the power of Ministers. It might be said that it
was under the controul of Parliament, and not of Minis-
ters ; but it was well known that Ministers and Parliament
meant one and the same thing. Whatever plan the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer might think proper to propose,
Parliament would be sure to sanction. It was, therefore,
he approved of the plan proposed by his Hon. Friend, the
Member for the Queen's County, the other evening, because
it would put the Sinking Fund beyond the reach of Minis-
ters. He did not think the House could agree to a propo-
sition so inconsistent in itself, that one part of it carried
with it the defeat of the other. The Hon. Gentleman con-
cluded by moving as an amendment, that the Bill be read
that day six months.
Mr. WIIITMORE said, that after the ample discussion
which this Bill bad undergone, he could not think of detain-
ing the House at any length. Last year he supported the
Sinking Fund, and as he would support it this year, because
he thought it absolutely necessary. It enabled Ministers
last year to render the country great services, and he had
no doubt that it would be productive of Ain greater benefit.
Ile regretted that the proposition of his Hon. Friend, the
other evening, for confining the Sink rag Fund to its real
surplus was not carried ; hut rather than have no Sinking
Fund, he would take the Bill as it was. lle did not think
that distress existed to that extent, that it was necessary
to cut down the revenue to the lowest point. On these
grounds lie should feel it his duty to vote for the Bill.
Mr. HUM E said, that be was anxious to remove the
misconception of his lion. Friend who had just sit
down, in attributing the rise in the funds, which enabled
Ministers to make the reduction that took place last year,
to the Sinking Fund. if hi, Han. Friend grants that
no Sinking k and can be useful, but that arising from a
real surplus of revenue, be (Mr. H.) would be able to
show him that no advantages could have been derived
from a Sinking Fund, because none really existed. .He
had collected from the Finance Report, the amount of
revenue and expenditure from the sth of January, 1816,
up to the sth of January, 1822,. and lie found that for
the six years, the aggregate amount of income was 373
millions, and of expenditure 372 millions, leaving on the
average of the six years, only a surplus of one million,
to which adding tire millions, the balance of a loan, and
the error of two millions, which (wept into the accounts
of 1815, together with 1,500.000/. arising from other
sources, made, daring the six years, only a surplus of
9,500,0001., which had it been applied to the diminution
of the debt, would have wade an annual reduction on
the charge of about half a million. But what were the
operations of the Sinking Fond? 'ln 1816, though
there was an excess of expend.tnre beyond the income,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave 13 millions to the
Commissioners for the Reduction of the Debt, to go into
the market to purchase stock. In 1817 also, there stay
an excess of expenditure ; he applied 13 millions the
same way. In 1818 he again went into the market, and
purchased stock to the amount of 14 Militias. He went
on pnrchasing during the six year., till the quantity of
stock bought amounted to 59,7n3,000/. though there was
only a surplus of 7;500,000/. during that period. But
what did this do, but create a debt of 57,000,0901. ?
This was not the result of the operation of a Sinking
Feud.' It was In fact but creating one debt to discharge
another. lf, then, his Honourable Friend allowed that
a real surplus only could be efficient, how could he sty
that a sham Sinking Nand could have any beneficial
effect, when the Chancellor went into the market to
*ell annuities. To show the complete delusion of a
Sinking Fund, exclusive of the 514 millions, 31i millions
were borrowed fruits the. Commissioners, thus increasing
the debt to over :10 millions. If there was a real sur-
-Iplus it ought at once to be applied to the extinction
of so much of the capital. He had wore serious ob-
i jections to a Sinking Fund. They called upon the
Chancellor to pay the Commissioners five million.,l

been less than the unfunded debt in 1816. On the sth
of January 1823, bath species of debt amounted to bill
millions; and on the sth of January 1816, tkey amount-
ed to 864 millions. Thus it appeared that the debt was re-
duced by some process or other 24 millions in the course
of seven years ; but he never said that this reduction was
owing to the operation of the Sinking Fund. He had
mentioned only to them that a reduction had taken place,
and if so, why not carry it further. Whatever schemes
had been adopted, or whatever fluctuations the funded
and unfunded debt might have undergone, it was a mat-
ter of fact that a reduction of 24 millions had taken place
in the nominal capital of the debt, compared with the
preceding period of 1816. Further, if they took the ac-
tual charge of the debt in 1816 and 1823, a reduction of
no less than three millions would be found to have taken
place within these two periods. Thus, within seven
years, both the debt and the charge were reduced ; and
he therefore thought the House might safely adhere to
the system by which this reduction was effected.
Mr. TI ERNEY sail, that if lie rightly understood
his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, the question
was not about the actual amount of the debt in 1816 and
Its 23, but whether or no the reduction that had taken
place was attributable to the operation of the. Sinking
Fund, and to what had been said on that point by his
Hon. Friend, be could add nothing. He could not but
express his regret that his Hon. Friend the Member for
Shrewsbury, had moved the postponement of the Bill
for six months. He would rather it had been limited
to iLpeeks, so as to &Onto to same to.some arrange-
; eleIR-which would satisfy all parties. Whatever was the
' surplus of income, he was convinces' that more substan-
tial good would be done to the connwy by repealing taxes
Ito that amount, than by applying it to the establishing
a Sinking Fund. However, it appeared to be the feel-
' ing of the House that there should be a Sinking Fund,
he should not trouble them further on that head, but con-
tine himself to the amount of surplus beyond expenditure.
He would then come to the question whether there was
really a Sinking Fund of 5 or 3 millions, whether the
operation on the dead weight, would prevent the appli-
cation of two millions to the reduction of the debt. lie
contended that there was only a surplus of three millions
available to the reduction of the debt. If he understood ;
the Chancellor of the Exchequer rightly on a former
evening, lie said that by the operation of the new plan
two millions would be taken from the dead weight, and
would consequently be avalable to the Sinking Fund;
hut this position of the Right Honourable Gentleman he
denied. After taking 200,000/. from the Sinking
Fund, which was again to be paid back to the Commis-
sioners, there still remained 2,000,0001. upon which the
parties had a claim; and instead of paying this sum, an
arrangement was made that a third party should take
2,800,1100/. for 45 years. These two millions, the Right
Hon. Gentleman said, were applicable to the reduction of
the debt • bat what more was it taan takilbg two millions
additional into the market for the purchase of three per
Cents.; in other words, it was inertly levying a perpetual
annuity of 3/. But whence cause the money to redeem
this stock? Why only by selling out stock to the same
amount. The only difference between them was, that the
one stock was redeemable, and the other irredeemable for
45 years, and this exactly left them where they were be-
fore. But then the Right lion. Gentfetnan said, he had
got rid of the parties; but this he might have effected
much more easily, and without all the complicated ma-
ehinery of the present system. He agreed in the princi-
ple of the meitsui•-, but he objected to the details. In one
part of the Bill they consented to take a burthen on them-
selves to relieve pus•erity, and is another part they threw
a burthen loom themselves on posterity. This involved
such contradiction, that he was as.onished the House
could assent to it. If a person had a demand of 2,1100/.
upon his estate, lie could well conceive his desire to get
rid of it by a limited annuity for 45 rears, because he
might wish to raise a Joan to expend in cutting a canal,
or otherwise improve his estate, which would afterwards
repay him; but here nothing was to be gained, and a con-
siderable expense was incurred in stamps aati lawyers.
The effect of this Bill would be to tie up the hands of
Parliament from farther redaction of taxes, while it would
not advance the reduction of the debt one shilling. The
House ought not to sanction a proposit la') involving two
contradictory plans. If the present Bill passed-, the
hands of Parliament would be thereby completely tied,
and no farther redaction of taxes be contemplated. He
would ask the Right lion. Gentleman, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, if he would persevere in a measure which
was not understood even in that House. He believed he
was not asking tow much when he entreated the Right
Hon. Gentlensan to pause before he wteild;pass that Bill
into a law. If he should receive encouragement, end
that the present amendinmt were negatived, he won'd
propose another amendment to the effect that the Bill
might be read a third time that day six weeks. In the
event of the Ares •nt Bill being thrown out, the old law
r-lating to the Sinking Fund would stand unrepealed.
Fur the prevent he woutd vote for the proposition of his
lion. Friend.
Mr. HUSKISSON said it afforded him very great plea-
sure to find that after the nnnterous discussions on the
present measure, so many Hon. Gentlemen who turued
their attention to it, were friendly to the principle of
maintaining a Sinking Fund. His Right lion. Friend (Mr.
Tierney) admitted broadly the principle of such a fund.
He admitted at least that whatever excess there would he
of annul income over expenditure, should be converted

ttll the reduction of the pnblic debt. His Hon. P1iew4..411,
..member for Portarlington, also, hewns happy to finel, was
coming round a little to ado owledge the wisdom of eater
blishing a Sinking Fund. The principal and grew?, obe
Section whiCh his Hon. Friend tair. Ricasdo)hitil to that
fund was, that it might he poisibly uivetted from its ori-
ginal object to other purposesst the wilier the :Minister.
But it was trident to every Hon. Gentleman, that when
the present Bill should have pasaed into a law, DJ such
conversion could take place without the concerrence of
Parliament. No part of the Sinking Fund could he di-
verted to any purpose without the serrtion and autho-
rity of Parliament. Bat bis Hon. Feral 'wee anxious
to adopt. the prinsibile of the p an, which was suggested
some nights ago by the. Host ilatooetethe Member for
Queen's Comity (Air 11.,Pusts11), in corder that the Sink-
inir Fund miglit be ptadeLheyond the reach and control
or Ministers. To the oonsidmition of that plan he meant
to apply himself before he copcladed. At present he bad
to observe that all Hoe. Membstrs seemed to. agree in the
prifia"9l adiliii4lllo444ol4 of inCra,. *OO- 41,4007.
to the reduction and gtidaiai estisiotion of the
National Debt. But if c.auset should arise to create 0
demand for an expenditure greater thin the present, ;t
would not become necessary to touch the Sinking Fend
in order to meet that expenditure. The objection would
seem to imply that we were come to the end of our re-
sources, and unable to meet any new demand on the
country. They might trust to posterity for forty Lire
years, at least, to continue a revenue equal to the annual
expenditure, and to the extinction of the public debt.
But a Sinking Fund was in the mean time necessary to
maintain public credit. The Right Honourable Oeitle-
man (Mr. Tierney), hail very correctly stated the princi-
ple of the Sinking Fund, as laid down in the Bill before
the House. There was a clear excess of 3,000,000/. of
income beyond the expiediture. He was ready to admit
that the other 2,000"/., which was to snake up the
sum of 5,090,004 Sinking Fund, was not a surplus over
the expenditurea--(Hear, hear, front the 'Opposition.)
The interest of time public debt exceeded twenty-eight
millions. There was besides that debt and the charges
for the naval, military, and civil departments, a sum of
4,9001000/. to be provided annually in the payment of an-
nuities for life. By the Bill which passed the House last
year, instead of disposing-of two millions of that in the
sale of annuities for life, it was to be disposed of in the
sale of terminable annuities for -Li years. The Bill of last
year went to convert life annuities into terminable annui-
ties to expire in forty-live years: The present five mil-
lions would arise in this manner—three millions of it
arose from a clear surplus of income over expenditure.
The other two millions were to be derived from the isle of
annuities for forty-five years. But the Hon. Baronet,
with whose plan the Hon. Member for Port irliogtoa,
was so much captivated, asks why the whole surplus
should not be at once applied to the reduction of the debt
according to the principle of his scheme? The objection
of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney) and of other '
Hon. Gentlemen was, that the present Bill tied up the dis-
cretion of Parliament, and took away from them the
power of making• any farther reduction of taxation. But
the discretion of Parliainent, remained still uncootrouled.
except in regard of the 3 millions of present surplus.—
With respect to the principle of a Sinking Fund he woe
glad tern they had all emus to an understanding. on she
subje ; and he was obliged to the Right Hun. tiset,
(Mr. Tierney) fur having tui clearly st ated his views of i t.
Had it not been for the unexampled protracted war in
which the country was engaged, there would have lawn
no necessity for departing from the principle of the Sink-
ing Fend established in 1792. If that war had terminated
in 1799, after seven years duration, which was the aver-
age length of wars, there would have been no OCCIII-1
to touch that Fund. If the amendment then before the
House, which was to postpiue the Bill for six months,
were carried, it would cause great confusion and derange-
ment in the proceedings of tnc Commissioners for the Re-
duction of the National Belt. The result would he, that
they would again. go to the old system, which was so
much and so justly condemned by the Hon. Gentlemen at
the other side. Alf the Bill asked was, to give power to
set aside so much quarterly for the reduction of the public
debt. He could not see any inconsistency between tile
present Bill and the Bill of last Session.
Lord A. HAMILTON maintained that tho Sinking
Fund was not made to operate for the reduction of the
debt. The Right Hon. Gent. at the other side could not
deny but there was a surplus of about nine millions since
1816, and yet not one penny of the debt was reduced.—
The proposition of the lion. Baronet (Sir Henry Parneli)
as far as a Sinking Fund could go, was a satirist proposi-
tion, because it would tie up the sum applicahla to the re-
duction of the public debt yearly. It was not his duty to
justify the result of nut passing the present Bill. It was
time measure of Ministers, and it was their business to
foresee the consequences. He maintained that the Bill, if
passed into a law, Kuehl be a bar to any farther rend-sins
of taxation.
Mr. BARING said, that the repeated discussion of th at
subject had one advantage, namely, that of making the is
understand each oilier. The Bight lion- Gentleman
(Mr. Huskisson) had admitted that the Sinking Fund
was really three and not five millions. The county
would be satisfied by that explanation given by those
Right Hon. Gentleman who wanted to establish a shahs
Sinking Fund of five millions, when that fund was to he
in reality mills three millions. He would be happy that
the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chapter) could be divorced train some of his relations.
particularly that left him by Iris late predecessor, who
bequeathed him the bill of last Session. The Itigat
Hon. Gentleman found himself in delicacy bound t
port that plan of hie predecessor, who left it as a child at
his door, but which the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to
put into a basket and let float dawn the river.—(:t
laugh.)—With respect to the plan suggested by toe
lion. Baronet, if that wlre to be applied to the Three
per Cent. Stock, the consent of the holders of that Stock
should be obtained ; but it might without any con-
sent be applied to the Five per Cent. Stock, which could
he reduced by purchasing it up at par. Having only
three millions of surplus, they could not swell (het sur-
plus into five millions by going from one market to an-
other. A loss to the public would be the result, for
whoever purchased the annuities should gain something
by them. Even if any thing coulil be gained by selling
in one fund, and buying in Another, yet the sitimpliei:y
of the public accounts should be attended to, and confu-
sion and complexity ought not to be introduced into
them for any trifling imaginary benefit. With these
feelings he did not meetly see how the House ought to
act. He did not see what good could result from a de-
lay of six.weeks, or of six months. if the Bill was to
pass in any elaape they would have to borrow two
millions. In the event of the House putting a negative.
on the amendment of his lion. Friend, against which he
should vote, he would propose that the Sinking Fund be
limited to three millions. They would then hare a real
surplus of three millions applicable to the reduction of
the debt. That fund would be increased by the gradual
falling. off of, the annuities of 4,5f0,900/. in case the Bit
Of last Session was retched. That would be a nide
operation.

i

Mr. WAKISSO N, in explanation, said that be did not
mean to stijr that they would have three millions only ap-
plicable to the reduction of the debt, but he meant that
stere would be three millions currency in the Exchequer
from taxe. beyond the expenditure of the country. But
he contended that if they succeeded in the sale of the
annuities as the Bill of last Sesgion anthoriscd, then they
would bite a clear surplus of tive millions, arising from
tt e real, surplus of three millions of income over expen-
diture, and tram the additional two millions by the con-
yersioo of the life into terminable annuities for forty-five
years.
Sir HENRI PARNELL said a few words, which were
not distinctly audible in the gallery.
Mr. RI CAR DO said that it was impossible, by any Act
of Parliament, to melee the surplus of Revenue over ex-
peeditore more than it really was. If a Sinking Fund
of three millions were applied, an additional sum might
.be derived from the gradual falling in of the life an-
nuities. With respect to what his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Baring) said of the plan of the Hon. Baronet, it was ad-
mitted that the holders of the 3 per Cent. Stock could
taut be compelled to come in, but the whole country
-would find it to their advantage to receive four, instead of
the 3 per Cent. It would be worth while to try the ex-
periment, and to obtain the opinion of the country.
There were in the market the Long Annuities, which
were to expire in 1960, having 37 years more to run. On
those the experiment might be tried, and they could be
had at 10 years purchase. When the Right Hon. lien-
finnan, on a former occasion, stated that twenty-four
nAlions of the public debt were cancelled, it was the ge.
nerd' opinion that the reduction was caused by the oper-
ation of the Sinking Fund; but his Hon. Friend showed
tbat•no part of the debt was reduced by the Sinking
Fund. He should vote for the amendment.
After a few words from Mr. Ewes and Sir JOHN
. Newronr,
The Heuh divided on Mr. Bennet's amendment, which
ma. lost by a majority of 109 to 59.
Another division then took place on Mr. Baring's
amen lment, when there appeared —For the motion, 72
Agai net it, 100—Majority, 28.
On our return to the 'Battery, we found Mr. JONES
mien his legs, justifying his former vote on the question.
From the confusion in the Ilallery, it was impossible to
coil sett the Hon. Oentleman's observations.
• The Original resolution was then agreed to.
FOUR AND • HALF PER CCNT. POND.
" ,On the question being put that the Hoes* do resolve it-
self ler° a Committee of the whole House on the Ord-
nance Pstimates.
' Mr. CREFVEY nese to bring under the consideration of
the WRAP the motion of which he had gives notice, re-
ameetitor the application of the foer and a half per cent. du-
ties accruing in the island of Barbadoes. The Hon. Mem-
ber treced the history of these duties back to their 6rigin.
and contended that they were diverted from that original
perpose. He maintained that such appliention as they
were now destined to. was not warranted by the Act of
Charles the Second. He lamented that he should have so
erten to reproach his Majesty's Ministers with continuing
these duties. lie concluded by moving the following Re-
solutions:—
That it appears to this House. from the Estimates laid
before it for the service of the Ordnance for the present
year, there is a sum of fe.4.121. for erecting cad repairing
fortifications la the island of Barbadoes.
That by an Art of the Colonial Assembly of Barbadoes,
abich was passed In the year 1063, it was enacted, that,
for the purpose of maintaining " the reparation of the
Potts, the building a sessions-house and a prison, and all
other charges incumbent on the Government there, an
impost or custom upon All dead commodities, of the growth
4tif the ;aid island, and to be stripped off the same, should
tArpilet trellis Majesty, his heirs and successors, for ever,
after the followleg rate or manner—that is to say, four and
Stalf.in specie for every five seore."
.. net It further appears, from the Journals of this House,
the first year of the reign of her Majesty Queen Anne,
-a petition was presented from the Planters and Merchants
yoneereed in the.island of Barbadoes, setting forth the
Colathies* Act of Barbadoes before referred to, and pray-
" that the said duty of four and a half per eenturs '
!Wet be a pplieb to the reparation and building of fortifies-
tiou,s, wad defraying all charges incident to the Govern-
' Itireallliere, es the same was originally intended, instead
rtrbeinp diverted to other purposes, as the same then was;"
aind•that, in consequence of such petition, the House did
iddress her Majesty Queen Anne, praying that this ditty
right be restored to the purposes for which it was created
by the Colonies' Act of Barbadoes." and that this House
4,r informed, by a Message from her Majesty, that she
*mild give directions accordingly.
• That, notwithstanding such specific application of this
fupd-by the Colonies' Aet of Barbadoes to the building and
4epafiring of fort,ifleations in that Is'and, and notwithstand-
•tnehe recognition of that law by this House, and by her
Majesty Queen Anne, this fund Is now, for the most part,
itensinmed by pensioners in this country, including even
Members of this House, or their families; whilst the
friiiiticatiobs and other public works in Barbadoes ere left
tw he maintained by money raised from taxes on the people ;
and that, under all the circumstances above stated, and ad•
yprtiDg likewise to the afflicting condition of a great portion'
• °these kingdoms, this Hons~nsiders it to he alike due
to ifs cam. c:rarecter, and to the feelings of the people, hum-
bly to request his Majesty to give direction that the said
dirty or four and a half per eentum in the island of Rarhadoes
may be again restored to the original purposes for which It
was created.
Mr. R. WARD had no objection to the agitation of this
qtnestion at the proper tine, but in his view any opportm
bits alight hive hren pieferred to the present. It was
la error to'attippose that the House was about to be call-
ed to vote matey for any of the purposes motioned in
tlse act of assembly of 1663, for be was in a condition to
skim thetnot a shilling now about to he rcqnired would
be so Ipplied : ft *was notito be laid out in the erection or
repairof fortifications,' in the construction of a Sessions-
houses or in the building of a prison, the three objects
Mentioned in the Act referred to. The great naval ar-
terial at thirhathees Was-for the service of the whole of the
West India ;shade, and not exclusively- for Barbadoes ;
and the workshops and storebenses in a course of repair
Were applicable to the whole of Om Leeward island's, and
none of thrageould be said to be fairly included in the Act
of .1663. . _ •
Mr. HUMS, in support of the Amendment, urged the
injustice of continuing.lo apply these duties in the way
they had been. It yeas by a perseverance in such conduct.
that the people were made to feel daily more and more
the necessity of such a representation in this House, as
would make it the organ of the people's wishes, and the
assertor of their rights.
Sir C. COM* opposed the Amendment. He contend-
ed that a; objection, which if it bad any weight at all,
made against the principle bP the vote of any -grffht res-
pecting Barbados.* was improperly made now, when a
particular item Was under consideration. He maintained
that these funds were not diverted from their original
Purr".
Mr. BERNAL • characterized the exaction of these
°duties as a system of extortion from beginning to end.
NI-. WILMOT .definded • the original- grant, and re-
torted the charge of:bringing this House into contempt
with the people upon those who embarrassed and impeded
the measures of Government, by unnecessary add vexati-
ous delays. As to theAreentiment, he considered its in-
troduction now sve.en a particular item was under conside-
ration, ateill-timed. • '
Mr. CREEVEC in reply, said so convinced -was he of
the propriety of pushing his amendment, that nothing
would induce hito,toforego it, but the expressed sense of
titellouse.,—(Heal.) •
A. division then took place, When there: appeared—For
the Amendatent,l6--Agaittst it, rib—Mayadry • for the
original grant, 30. • •
onowagin *satin*.
Upson oar return Vi* thelethiry.wo found the House in a
Committee of Supply, belt Et. ft WARD oa his lege, aboat

to propose the Ordnance Estimates, Little alteration hav-
ing been made in the economy of this department. except in
the saving since last year, he did not feel It necessary to
trouble the Committee at any great Length with details.—
They would perceive by the F:stigoates that they were much
reduced in their amount, as compered with the last year.—
These reductions were to he traced principally to the cessa-
tion of the gratuities which had been graated to the civil
servants of the Ordnance, and which hlid this year ceased.—
Eiery department furnished an example of diminntion, ex-
cept that under the head of " Unprorided," and in that
there was an increase of 700/. this veer. 'laving thus
glanced summarily at the state of the Estimates, he should
now proceed to state them in detail, comparing those of this
year with the past one, and showing in what respects the di-
minutions were effected.
The account stood thus :-
1823. 1222. Differences.
Ordinary 450,334.. 473,436..13.109 less
Extraordinaries 270,469.. 292,744..22,276 less
Superan, Military 317,152.. 319,751.. 2,599 less
Superan. Civil 50,374.. 61,552.. 1,178 less
Ireland.

-- --
1,044,642 —1,234,112.. 48,470
)vided....... 10,88 L.. 904.. 700 mere

Sum required. .1,199,226.. 1,243,995..44,770
Deduct presumed
Credits of 29,000.. 44,000..15,000 lees credit
Stores, &c....

• net white
To be voted 1 170,2.10 —1,199,006-29,770 1 o'er last
ear.
The savings made in the Estimates had been, for Eng-
land upwards of 38,0001. end for Ireland upwards of
6,0001. making altogether the reductions to amount to
nearly 45,0001. The whole sum, as the Committee saw,
to he asked this year for the service of the Ordnance,
was 1,170,226/. which was nearly 30,000/. less than the
vote of last year. Having stated thus much, he hail
only to say, that if any objiction arose to the votes in
detail, he would give such information as was in his
power. The Hon. Member concleded by moving the
grant of 45,027/. 13s. for the salaries of the Master-tle-
neral and principal Officers of the Orileance, as well as
to mike good the increased salaries at Pall Pall and the
Tower.
Mr. HUME rose to protest against such a large grant
for the Ordnance. He complained that the reductions
made were not at all so large as the country had a right
to expect. In plain language, these reductions amounted
to no more than 4 per cent. upon the whole sum. The
gross saving of forty-five thousand should have been
much larger. If the recommendation of the Commission-
era of Military I ruiniry had been attended to, this extra-
vagance in the Ordnance would not be permitted. The
Board of Ordnance was as great a delusion as the Sink-
ing Fund. The members of It bad only nominal duties
to perform. The country had a right to expect a closer
approximation to the standard of 17P.1i. No one step,
however, had been taken to restore it to that footing.
He asked why the two establishments at the Tower and
Pall Mall were not thrown into one? A great saving
would be made by their junction. There were no less
than twenty rovers, door-keepers, and messengers at
the office in Pall-Mall, who might he dispenced with.
During the American war, the Commissioners of Mili-
tary Inquiry stated, that the expense of the Ordnance
did not exceed 1,300,000/. ; now, even in its reduced
state, it was as mach at 1,170,0001, In the seventh year
of peace, this was too large an establishment. The Hon-
tamable Member said be could state objections to the
salaries of each of these officers in detail ; but aiClo-
rernment (seemed determined to persevere in the sys-
tem of non-retrenchment, it would he an idle waste of
the "Gine of ,the Committee to fix its attention upon'this
sub ject.
The vote was then agreed to.
Mr. R. WARD then mated a grant of 7051. ce.'lll.
for the increased salaries to the civil officers at the Royil
Laborafory.
Mr. HL 51E wished to know whether the expense of '
the gunpowder e4ablielimentat Faversham was included
in this grant. He nnderstood the pretuises there had
been let to Mr. Hall, of Dartford, though the country
continued to be charged 10,0001. a year for the establish-
ment there. He objected altogether to the keeping up
of an Inspector of gunpowder. Such an officer was
quite unnecessary ; or, it one was kept, lie ought to be
made to reside where the manufacture of powder was
going on. Captain Bayley, however, who filled that
situation, lived at Faversham, where there was no
powder making, rather than at Waltham Abbey, where,
the works were carried on. He supposed the Captain
did so in order to claim travelling expenses. As (lover/e.l
went had by them 1,000 barrels of gunpowder, lie saw
no neceseity for continuing the establishment. Wal-
tham Abbey and Favereliem had already rust the public
I:0,000/. It was char the Inspector of Gunpawder bid
not witch to do, for Colonel Chapman, who lately filled
the office, was at the same time Secretary to the Master-
General, and willed almost entirely in London.
Mr. WARD defied that the establishment at Faver-
sham ever cost 10,000/. a-year.
Mr. HUME said, by the average of the last eight
years, it was 11,000!. a year.
Mr. WARD said that the whole expense of Faversham
was not quite 1,71101. a-year. It was true there was no
powder made at Faversham, but there were milts there,
and it possessed advantages over Waltham Abbey. which
rendered the giving it up impolitic. The Committee were
aware that the two great London manufactories of the
kingdon were at Faversham and Waltham Abbey. At the
former the works were still carried on, but at the latter
come of the preparatory proofs was gone through which
could not be done so well as at the former. In that depart-
ment called the saltpetre kitchen, this advantage u as most
apparent. There wi re alsoextensive siore% at Faversham,
and as by the ingenuity of his Gallant Friend behind him
(Sir Win. Congreve) the regeneration of damaged gun-
powder was practicable, the use of these stores for that
pnrpose was of great value. Where, then the keeping ep
these stores was attended with so touch utility, he tlicteght
they should not be given np for a trifling expense. As to
the case of Colonel Chapman; it was true he was, at the
same time, Inspector of Gunpowder, and Secretary to the
Master-General; but the inconvenience of holding the two
situations was so great, that lie was obliged to give the
former up.
Mr. H 1: ME said he was convinced the Honourable
Secretary himself felt the futilityof the arguments which
lie was using in defence of those establishments. In the
year 1317 the lion. Member stated his opinion that they
should not he continued. The Honourable Member
next took notice of the great expenses incurred by the
Government in the erection of buildings fur the use of
Officers belonging to the Ordnance. it ivould be impos-
sible to establish economy in the department, unless the
houses were disposed of by Government—houses that
cost the Government enormous sums, and in which offi-
cers now lived just as if they were in palaces, when those
officers might obtain habitations at a very cheap rate. ,
Here be enumerated several buildings, together with the
large sums expended in the erection of them, and he
holed that next year some steps would be taken to set
ri of all those expensive works.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT was of opinion that all expen-
sive establishments, for which large portions of land
had been purchased, ought to be got rid of. He at-
hided particularly to the establishment of a College in I
Ireland.
Mr. WARD replied to several of the statements of Mr.
Hume. As to the houses occupied by Officers of the
Ordnance Department, he assured the Honourable Gen-
tleman that none of the officers hail more apartments
than were necessary for their immediate use; and besides,

ggils duties made it neressary that they should reside On
the spot where the duties were to be performed.
HUME took notice of the sinecure office of Mu-
ter Gunner, ln St. James's-park, which was held by Ge-
neral Mood, with a salary, and a fine house attached
to the otti,c. That house was good enough for a man
worth .2,000/. a-yell., anti be wished to koow why such
ao establishment should be kept up for a man, who had
nothing else to do than firinF off a gun on some parti-
cular occasions, and who besides had 1.100/. a-year as
Colonel of Artillery?
Mr. WARD replied that the house alluded to had bnt
eery few apartments in it, and that Goverement would
be glad to dispose of many of the houses now in their
possession,
The motion was then agreed to.
The next Resolution was, the voting a sum of 8,5001.
to pay the salaries for home and foreign stations of the
first class.
12,277/., for those of the second class; and
8,195/. for those of the third class.
On the latter Resolution being moved, Mr. HUME
strongly objected to the Ordnance establishment at En-
field as most expensive and unnecessary.
Mr. WARD said that many important experiments
were frequently made, with a view of bringing about im-
provements in the army and navy; and these could not
be done in private manufactories.
• A sum of 6,5611. a as next voted for paying the salaries
of civil servants, storekeepers, &c.
On the Resolution being moved for voting a slam of
10,5291. to defray the civil rontinzencies in the Tower,
Mr. HUME wished to know, what was meant by sue-
vet's taken by storekeepers.
A Member said it was customary to send persons an-
nually to take an account of all the stores in various
stat iors.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
The following Resolutions were then moved seriatim.
4,2931. for the Master Gunners at the different gar-
risons of Great Britain, except those of St. James's-park.
40,t4291. for the corps or Royal Engineers.
26,3411. for the corps of Royal Sappers and Miners.
241,235/. for the Royal Regiment of Artillery.
Mr HUME moved, as an amendment, that this vote be
reduced by I 5,000 f.
Mr. WARD said that the Committee ought to he aware
that the education and preparation of an officer of the
Royal Artillery was of such importance, that he trnsted
they would pause before they agreed with the lion. Gen-
tleman in thinking this vole ought to be lossene,:. The
number of the officers was not beyond what the service of
this country required, and this was the opinion of the
Duke of Wellington.
Mr. 11Uhl E begged to remind the House, that the lion.
Gent. had, on a former occasion, stated that the Duke of
Wellington had gone over this establishment man by min,
and was of opinion that he could not dispense with a single
man. A fig for such authority—(Loud laughing) ;—for in
spite of this opinion, lie commenced discharging men right
and left. His (Mr. Homo's) object was, not to decrease the
number, but the expenditure by a more economical mode of
brigading.
Mr. WARD could not suffer the misrepresentition of
what he had said pass without interfering to set himself right
in the understanding of the Committee. He had never said
that the Duke of Wellington declared that he would not at
any time dispense with a single man. He had said that his
Grace stated, that he could not do with a less number ac-
cording to the then estimates; but he also added, that there
were measures in prospect which would enable him very
considerably to reduce the number, and that nuticipation
was now fully realised. The Committee should now be in-
formed, that such was the system of regularity adopted at
thiedepartment, that the accounts connected with it in
ever y part of the world ewe audited every month, so
that peculation by a storekeeper, &c. was out of the ques-
tion.
The Committee then divided, end the numbers were on
the Amendment—For it, 30—Against It, 69—Majority
against It, an.
hs original Resolution was then carried.
The following Resolutions were then proposed:-
2.2901. for the Director General of the Field Train.
6,9371. for OP Medical Department of the Ordnance.
Mr. HUME proposed to take off the salary of the Di-
rector General, who was paid at the rate of 31, a day, as
unnecessary.
Tne amendment to that effect was -then put, and the gal-
lery was cleared for a Chision.
The cumbers were—For the Amendment, 27; Against it,
06;—Majority against It. 39.
0,0791. for the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich.
Mr. FIUME asked if any greater reduction was likely to
take place in this establishment.
Sir W. BURGH observed that the establishment was re-
ducing by degrees. The number at the Academy had
beet
130 ; they were then reduced to 114—from that to
139. the present number, and they would be gradually re-
dured to 100.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
The fallowing Resolutions were then proposed:-
2,4071. Exchequer Fees.
14.0.466/. for the Extraordinary Expenses of the Ordnance
Department.
10,6011. for the Lend Service of the Ordnance Depart-

90.233/. for the Ordnance Office of Ireland.
After a few observations from Mr. Huate, Mr. W.
SMITH, and Mr. WARD, the remaining Resolutions urre
agreed to. The Honse resented, and the Report was
ordered to be received to-morrow.

SLAMRT.
Mr. W. SMITH said, that he was requested by the
Hon. Member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) to post-
pone the presenting a petition from the Quakers, for the
gradual abolition of Slavery through the Btitish (loud-
mons to Wednesday next. This his Hon. Friend did at
the particular desire of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
who expected to be able to attend on that day.
WARCHOVSINO BILL.
On the motion of Mr. WALLACE, the Warehousing
Bill was read a second time.
After a few words from Mr. ROBERTSON and Mr. Al-
derman Tnoatesos, in recommendation of a mature con
sideration Of the measure, it was ordered to be committed
on Friday next.
The Reports of the Committees of Ways and Means
and Supply were received, and agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then read, and post.
pones' ; and the House adjourned at one o'clock.