The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-02-22 00:00:00

THE' STATESMAN.

liiititations which have for their basis civil and religion,
liberty, and widen are the unbending supporters of our Ha
tionai glory and happiness ?"—(The Right Hon. Gentleness
sat down amidst long and continued cheers.)
dlr. MAIIERLY said, that in following the Right
Honourable Gentleman he should request the indolgenco
or the house. The Right Honourable Gentlenart was
surrounded by all the official accounts, to which he could
have recours • at pleasure, an a !vantage of which he (Mr.
Moberly) was deprived ; those accounts not having vet
been presented to the boo e. Before he adverted to the
part of the subject which he considered as of the great-
est importance, de would offer a few remarks on the cre-
dit which the Right Honourable Gentleman assumed for
making a reducti n in the Estimates of the present year
to between a mullion and a million and a half beyond the
anti, ipation of the Pittance Couttnittee of 1817. He con-
fessed not to give the Right Honourable Gentleman
credit for this reouction ; hecaese the statement of the
Right Honourable Gentleman himself involved a cow
plete censure on his slajesty's Government for not having
sooner accomplished the reduction. (The Honourable
Gentleman here entered into several calculations, which
the noise that prevailed in the house prevented us from
distinctly hearins, to prove that hail Government at-
tended to the remit eendations of the Finance C 'tree
ten millions would by this time have been save Ito the
country) Adverting to whet the Right Honourable
Gentleman had said of the reduction of the rap nee of
collecting the revenue in Great Britain, which since the
year 1818 amounted to 130,0001. and also of the reduc-
tion of the expense of collecting the revenue in Ireland,
which, since the year 1819, amounted only to 3,0001.,
he contended that a reduction so small did no' evince
the exercise of much vigilance in the detection of abuse.
—(Hear, hear.) With respect to several of the Esti-
mates of the Right Honourable Gentleman. not havidg the
official accounts he could not speak accurately to them;
I hut lie trusted that he should not be thereby precluded
from any future observations. The result Of the Right
Hon. Gentleman's proposition was to reduce taxation to
the amount Of 2,232,0001. He apprehended ilia, the great
question between the Right lion. Gentlemen and himself
related to the way in which it was advisable to sapport
public credit. The Right Honourable Gentleman said
that the only way to rapport public r redit was to employ
an excess of taxation to the amount of five millions to
the redemption id the debt. If he (Mr. laberly) could
show that it ea. possible to support public credit with-
out tat,ci-r-g those five millions trout toe pockets of the
peopiic -did that time five millions which the Itt. Honour-
able Gentleman proposed to apply to the liquidation of
the debt might be added to the other two millions, and
the whole seven applied to the reduction of taxation, lie
thought the houw ought to adopt li;s spew of the subject.
Much stress hail bees l igd by ineny persons on what was
formerly called the Sinking Fund, as having mainly
so; ported public credit. He ha I already stated in that
house that it was notorious that the. Sinking Fund, in.
%tract cf being 'diminished, had actually increased the
debt. If the calculations of a very able roan, Mr.
Marshall, were to be trusted, that Gentleman h.d shoe n
in a tits poet statement of debtor and creditor, that in-
stead of having diminished the debt, the Sinking Fond
lied created be. wren twenty soil thirty millions of debt
'beyond that which ;timid have existed had it not been
established. Hoot that could be said to support public
credit which had thus added to the public debt, he
(Mr. Maberly)was at a loss to toneeive. But now a new
light seemed to have broken in upon the subject. After
thirty years experience, it ea' now on all hands allowed
that the only ethcient Sinking Fund was a surplus of in.
come over expenditure. The Right Honourable Gentle.
man had not stated whether the five millions were to go
on at compound interest or not.
The CHANCELIAMI of the EXCHEQUER said a
few cords across the table which were inaudible in the
Gallery.
Mr. MA MALY proceeded. The abandonment of the
principle on which the old Sinking Fund had been esta-
blished, had converted all the public annuities iwo annul-
ties for ever. As the old Sinking Fund, therefore, had
nut reduced the debt, it eas unfair to conclude that the
inaiteenance of public credit dill not require the reduction
of the Behr. If so, instead of appli ing the five million,'
to the support of a Sinking Fund, why t.ot apply it in
another manner not new in principle nor in practice ?
Ile would cull the attention of the l ouimittee to what Mr.
Pitt had said of the Act for the redemption of the Land
Tax, which lie passed, not withstanding the numerous ob-
jections that were made to it in that House. It wasstated
y Mr. Pitt that the principle of the Bill was so simple,
' •
and its advantages so certain, that he could not cone ive
what objection could he made to it. Now it would he re-
collected that when Pitt passed the Land Tax Redemp-
tion Bill the amount was about two millions, subseeient-
lv, during a period of about 25 years, 700,0001. was re-
deemed. and there remained unredeemed between 12 and
1.300,0001. At present the operation of the act was re-
tarded by the high price of redemption which occasioned
a sacrifice in the first instance of Iol.,and in the second of
201. per cent. In consequence, during the last three
years it had gone on so languidly, that it would take, on
an average, 500 years to redeem the tax. Are ,rding to
his plan, as contained in the Ileoslution which Le would
have the honour of submitting to the Hollow, about
-11.300.0001. of debt would be cancelled, which would he
more than could be effected by the application of an effi-
cient Sinking Fund of five minium during seven
vears.—What, then, he would ask, could be the ne-
ce.sity of keeping tip taxes to the amount of that
five mil ions? The Right Honourable Gentleman had
argued very much to show that the people were not
distressed, nut were in a comparative state ofatiluence and
prosperity. Ile agreed with him that the people general.
ly acre nut so witch impoverish, d as they were sow- time
ago, bat still he must contend, that there was a large,
class of the population not quite in a state of either pa-
sitive or comparative affluence whom a remission of taxes
Must relieve, (hear, hear!) but he did not conceive the
reduction of taxes by the application of the Sinking
Fund fur the next seven years would satisfy them. He
ens of opinion, that the operation of the Land Tax re-
demption Bill could be much f teilitated by the cotafer-
ing not only votes for the country, but creating qttalifi.l
cations for the Magistracy, and holding forth other in-
ducements to the public ; he only wished to grant that
which the people hail a right to demand without disho-
nour or inconvenience to public credit, or injury to the
character of the nation ; he was sure that if lie could
spew' the Revenue of the country would be increased,
while its burthens were diminished, the house would go
along with him in his proposition ; he eat prepared to
prove to the Right Honourable Gentleman that the re-
duction of seven millions of takes would not be pro.
(Fictive of an equivalent loss to die State. The Remis-
sion of Taxes eoa be operaive upon the population,
so as to incr. ate the number and the consumption, and
he thought this would be felt to •he anoint- at iedet of
One million. With re:lfeet to Ireland, he believed it to he
mulch within the proper estimate, that 400,0001. coal I be
saved in tae collection of the revenue. Tue Coonitts-
stoners to that country lie highly. ring ectrd is individuals,
and he thought they had done the du y of their appoint.
teent with fidelity and honour. At the sane time
he mein say, that while he agreed with every word of
their manly, faithful and honest Ilepert, It- must eons'•
der that it conveyed the most direct and decisive censure
upon the conduct of Ministers, who took no steps previ-
ously to alter that system by whirls the Revenue in that
country was ro!leeted at the rate of 22 per Cent., a tbtng
not to be borne (hear, hear!), so that it appealed Minis-
ters had at length been compelled to do, it h it they ought
to have accomplished volunt wily long before. Front
that source be anticipated a sating of about 400,0001.

The Right lintsAirahle 0 n•lee^in stated s !quiets.
At seven iniil'oop, au t a pruoutt onalil • re :ut lion nl
All.e lied Taves. Ho 11..1 nl4O stated, Oat 2.0,114/u
bzht he savint in add; tion in the eollert'ol of he 1' oc-•
the Customs alone. Bnt he vtonld trot c-nselt to

np any h►snch of than Totes eoltild-t.le, herann. patron-
age was ronrersied in the support of the Es ablislimeiii.
H• ho• ed on comideralion such a prinrip!• would h.
abandoned. He (Mr. M.) ishis convinced that much
greater s.vinrr might he made in the collectio t th.n th
Right Hon ntrable ticn•leman hail anticipate t. He b
Faced that in England and Scotland the saving in tb•
collection of the Beer Duties might he two hundred

thousand pounds, the present rate-being Nine per Crni.
Hy the savings whir h be had stated, and others in the
Army and Navy and other departments, he was con-
vinced they might go much lower, and that at nu distant
time there was a prospect of an.ine eeeee of the Revenue
of four millions, from th• sources u lie had stated.
There was no longer, he contended, a real necessity 01
railing on the people for the five millions of taxes. He
never had an intention of robbing the public creditor—
no man was more anxious than he that public credit
should be supported. The public eresiitor hail a fair
clai,n upon the country, and he was sorry it should go
abroad that he (Mr. M.) wi-hesi to imp sir that claim ; he
rams prepared to show that seven millions of taxes migi,t
be repealed, and yet the public credit lie as well support
ed a" now he would now solndt Resolutions.
Hi re Mr. °HOIDEN, the Chairman of the Com-
mittee, itated, that such proceeding would be informal,
and

Mr. MARERIN said, he wont I read the Resolutions
as explanatory of his object, wbieli lie did as follows:
" I. That by the Resolutions voted by this House in
the year 1819, it waid••rm expedient that inefficient Sink
ing Fund should he created to Cie amount of 6 millions.
2. That at the time in nsiestion. it WAX agreed unani-
mously, that the only Shaking Fund which can be tfneient.
is. that which is produced by a surplus of income over ex-
pendi tu re.
"3. That as far as can be enrected frota the papers laid
upon the Table of the Douse. there actually exists a sum of
about five million;, applicable tJ the reduction of the Na-
tional Debt.

" 4. That in addition to Mese fire millions, applicable to
the reduction of the debt, there is at the disposition of Par•
liament, arising from the increased productiveness of several
branches of Revenue, and the various plans of reform and
economy in the administration of the country, proposed
to be carried into execution this year, a sum of about

200.004,
"6. That it appears. therefore, that s total sum or
7,ioo,ottot. ari..iug from the above mentioned cowers, Is
applicable to the maintenance of puhlic credit. and to
the relief of agricultural or other distress, by remission of

taxation. -
-
•• ti. That although It was determined, that the capital
stock purchased by the Commiszioners kr the redemption
of the National Debt. with this efficient Sinking Fund,
should betransferred to their account, it was nevertheless
understood, that tne interest payable upon stock so pur-
chased. should either determine at the time of purchase, or
be paid over and heroine part of the Consolidated Fund.
•• 7. That taking SW. as the price of 1001. in 3 per Cent.
('onsol stock, it appears that tire millions of money annually
laid out during. the space of seven years. would retleein
about t3,7S't,lKKtl. of Three per Cent. Annuities, but
should we re ain at peace it would redeem a much smaller
sae. _

" S. That in the year 1794, for the support of public cre-
dit, there was passed en Act for the redemption and pur-
chase of Land Tax, which act, from the exorbitant conditions
attached to such redemption and purchase, has in a great
measure filled in effecting the destined object.
**P. That notwithstanding the obetncleet thus created,
such has been the stosa3ety of th • public to redeem their land.
am" to purchase landed securities, that the seen redeemed
and purchased amounts to 71)0.0001. and upwards.
•• 10. That If so large a proportion of the Lend Tax has
been retteesteed and purchased, at a secrifice, in the first in-
stance of 101. and in the second of 201. per cent. it is but
rosonnble to conclude that the remaining balance of
1e230.7011, would be similarly redeemed and purchased if
uo sacrifice was nrce.ssarv.
" I I. That it appears that 1,239,701/. of Land Tax, thus
redeemed and purchased, and paid for in 3 per Cent. Con-
solidated Annuitiee, would cancel a sum, in such annuities,
of about 41.3:30,0001. being wore than th; amount that
would be pur:hased by the regular investment of the Sink-
ing Fund, in Stock, for the space of seven years, if we re-
main at peace.
" 12. That it appears that this method of reducing debt
by no means differs in its substance from that which was
adopted by the House in the Resolutions of 1919, the essen-
tial attributes of both plans being the maintenance of public
credit, by the diminution of the quantity of debt.
" IS. That as the mode (.4 redeeming the National Debt
by redemption and purchase of Land 'Fax injures no class
of proprietors, end will absorb a quantity of debt nearly
equal to that which would be redeemed by an efficient Sink-
ing Fun.) of five millions, annually laid out during seven
years, it is expedient to substitute it for the Sinking Fund
adopted in the Resolutions of the House of 1619.
" 14. That by this substitution there may he remitted to
the people, in alleviation of their distress, seven millions of
taxes."
The Honourable Member continued, that if he bad
mistaken the musk of relieving public credit, it was not
from want of inclination to relieve it as effie:tually as any
Member of that house could wish do do ; and sure he
Iva., that in stating this plan, he was convinced, that
if carried into execution it would effect the object pro-
posed, and if lost, it would he lost through want of
ability in the person who bad the honour to propose
it.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. RICARDO, who next addressed the House, was
inaudible during the first two or three sentences of his
speech. The MIL Aleauber went on to express his
as-
tisfaction at having heard the learned, able and excel-
lent speech of the Right Honourable the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. They haul heard that schools of economy
ought nut to be encouraged, but never haul political
economy so great a triumph as in the speech of that
Right flonourahle Gentletnar,—(Cheers)—aml never
had a Minister, filling that situation, advanced such ex-
cellent principles of sound philosophy anti common
sense.—(liear.)—'f here was only one dillerence between
that hon. gent. and himself, and that was with respect to
the clear surplus. Ha (Mr. R.)thad stated last year, that
in the Ast respecting the pensions they were only
transferring from one hand to ano,lier, and that when
the plan wits carried into execu!ion, tuey could
only relieve the taxes by a clear sinkirg fond of
33.100,000/., in,t-ad of 5,000.00/. This waS the only
dill-relive between the Right Hon. Gentleman an I him-
self; he was prepared to go along uith hint ia every
other respect. he alio sec, the importance of dimieish-
hug the debt; but it uas under the impressioa Chit a
Sinking Fund was 111)PliCabl.• to that purpose, but *hick,
from all the expetienee witieh 11,1 bad had of it, lie
thought blurs-151 e (hear, hear, hear!). lu his opinion
the only hot le of diminishing the terrific debt was by a
pr .p urtionitte co utrilmtion from the cap t.l of the coun-
try (hear). Awl if the greater iterrilice were vrecticalile,
es hy not co:atrihtre the sin ,l'er am twit of cau.i tut: lie
Lacked 'titan Faxes in two pain sof view ; ore cl iss
wet-. ra'se 1 to pay oil' a deh,, and the ot'mr to defr ty o'er
expenditure.—The termer were p .id hack to the tunu-
tr
and the latter for ever Lett to it. Tide was a die-
Unction which had nut bee -h hitherto clearly ander:4oml.
Ile believed the reduction of the debt to he practicable
at this moment ; butt he was convinced at tbe same time
that they could nut have a Sinkinz Fund ku pt sacred fer
the parpm.e. in support ut th's opinion, he n ishe.l to cell
the a-termer' of the house to a pamphlet, purported b
set to.warti by Ministers (cries of 'nu, nut,' on the Treasury
lieutehes, and most emrhatteally by Mr. Canning anul Mr.
Robin on); tottwhetner it was !lie wotkaf Ministers or not,
it contained the arguments which Mirnst:Ts generelly use.t,
and therefore he was warrant d in replying to them. In
that pamphlet it was stated, that the Sinking Fund had two'

r._ . ,