The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-26 00:00:00

THE STA'

stipulated to consult together, and to concert/Inch mea-
sures as might seem to them fit and' expedient. Those
were the only stipulations, of which he was then swab
that this enuuniry had entered into, on the subject to
which the Noble *Lard adverted.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that.after, what was stat-
ed by the Richt Honourable Gentleman, he anemic wil-
hug to press for a more direct answer. He woald, how-
liver, wish that the Right Honontable Gentleman would
again consult, and make himself acquainted with all
those treaties, in order that when at any time the goes-
, lion should come before the •House, the Right Honour-
atle Geotleman might be better able to give an answer.
"The consideration of the question should necessarily re-
cast, is consequeece of the invasion of Spain by the Bour-
bons„after this country had spent one thousand millions
in restoring them to the Crown of France. He was of
opinion that it was now incumbent on the people of this
'country to clear themselves of all stipulations towards
that family.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Secretary CANNING begged leave to observe,
that the preseot was no time to go Into argument. The
Noble Lord asked a question, which was answered as a
• matter of fact. In the application of that answer to the
Noble Lord's question, he might, perhaps, have been
mistaken, but lie understood the Noble Lord to ask a
question of fact, and not for the sake of argument, into
which he did not then expect to he drawn.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, said be apprehended that he
• was reittinderstooul by the Right lion. Gentleman.-
- He did not quarrel with the Right Hon. Gentleman's an-
swer. The Right lion. Gentleman answered him in a
matter of fact, lint he advised the Right on. Gentleman
to make himself better acquainted withH the stipulations
in the treaties.
"Sir ROBERT WILSON rose. Observing some symp-
toms of disapprobation, in some part of the House, he
sahl.h.F. wished to put them in possession of a fact which
perhaps wars not known to souse, or was forgotten by
others. He had put the same question to the Noble Mar-
quese, the predecessor of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and
lie received a positive answer that :this country was not
holind by any treaty whatsoever, to guarantee the Crown
of France to the Bourbons. He hoped,lberefore, that
the Right Hon. Gent. would not take nn himself the
odious task of gisitig such a guarantee.
• • Mr. CA NNl4,Nit again rose. He said be had in answer
in the Noble Lord's question said that there were condi-
thaw in thee treaties with the Allied Monarehs,lirst call-
' 4 eg on this country to join with them in active measures
lo'ca•elt,en attempt on the Crown of France by the
ideseendaitts if the late usurper; and secondly, in ease
and
of
W- rer.elution breaking Out' in France, to consult
qnCert.
LisT.--rowetoN MISSIONS.
Mr: LENNARD said, that he rose in pursuance of his
notice, to call for the production of SAIIIP accounts gon-
reeted with the Civil List. He was led to understand
aat some reduction was made in the third class, and it
v-as to that class of the Civil List that he meant to con-
firm his motion. The object which be had in the infor-
mation\ belought, was to put the House in possession of
the arceants of the reductions made in the Civil List,
prepararoty to a motion which he intended hereafter to
submit to them on the expenditure of that department.
• Zo fhe.produrtian of these papers he could not anticipate
Y. ortemmonslule objection. The House had a right to be
iefertotil of !cry reduction in that class of the Civil List,
s . svp...;,,ttecattee.the House and the country had an interest in the
*bieh Were to go into the Consolidated Fund.
• • Sky* a precedent for the granting of the se-
'Au" , %Vali then winetpg.- o*.tbe
of toe Hoy Member for Abertleee, last year, a volu-
minous account of the expenditure of the Foreign
Missions was granted by the Noble Marquess who was
the /treater:tor of the Right lion, Gentleman, and who
conbl net be suspected to be at all disposed to commit
hintseit by any information he would give his (Mr.
Lentord's) side of the House. The Honourable Mem-
ber tilten read part of the accounts presented last
year, oid 'aid he should regret if the Right Honour-
able kvcretary for the Foreign Department should avail
himself of the power he possessed, to deprive the House
of the intone- of inquiry. Some reduction, he under-
stood, haul been made in the extravagant expenses of
the Missiun to the Swiss Cantons, in consterence of
the inquiry of last year. That proved the utility of
entertaining the question again. Could any one believe
don gross job (hear, hear,) would he abolished had it
not been for the exposure it met with in that House?
It was his intention, hereafter, to submit a motion to
the House, for a considerable redaction in the expen-
diture of the Foreign Mission', but those papers were
necessary to that 'notion. The Honourable Member
concluded by moving, " Tlat an humble Address he
presented to his Majesty. that tie will be graciously
pleased to direct that there he laid before the House an
a::ronnt of the redectiona made since the 2d of Alay,
1512. in the expenditure of the third class of the Civil
Li-t, stating how the diminution, if any, was made, dis-
tinguishing whether in number of persons employed, or
by an alteration in their rank."
Mr. Secretary CANNING said that he wished to state
the grounds on which he resisted the motion of the Hon.
Gentleman. The Hon.4lllol)emau had himself admitted
that any savings that were dude in the child class of the
Civil List were to he added to the Consolidated Fund.
The Hon. Gentleman was aware that an account of the
savings could, therefore, be found in the statements of
the Consolidated Fund, and also the application of those
savings. No saving could be made until the arrange-
ments on which those reductions depended were carried
into effect. He granted the right of Parliameut to con-
troul and watch over the expenditure of the public mo-
ney by the Crown. But they would not make a wise use
of that discretion by always calling on the Crown to show
how every item of the money grunted in the Civil List
was applie or by putting themselves in the place of the
- Executive Alovernment, and exercisiog at every nutmeat
that rontronl which they certainly haul. 'rhe, Hon.
Member besides imputed no blame—indeed, he rather
imputed it as a miracle, to those who were able to effect
any saving. it was not usual with Parliament to call
for accounts of the Civil List when no abuse or extra•
vagance could he imputed. Ile had no objection to tell
the Hon. alember that a change had been contemplated
in* two or three foreign tali sions, and that the persons
who were to succeed to the present Ministers were to go
oat with only beg the character and rank. He had no
objection to give that information, but lie would oppose
the call by Address for the details of the savings effected
in that part of the expenditure, which was peculiarly
under .the management of the Crown. if there were any
abase shown to exist, or if there were any mismanage-
pent or corruption proved or admitted, then, indeed, the
lion. Member wenld have a right to call on the House to
institute an inquiry. Bat in the absence of say charge
of that nature, lie would oppose the call for those ac-
comas, and he thought he opposed it with a good grace.
when the Hon. Member hints& imputed no blame. tie
opposed it, besides, on the general principle, that it was
not usual with Parliament to interfere witlf‘the expendi-
ture of s. Department, the conteoul and manageine it of
which was the acknowledged prerogative of the Croon,
unless abase was shewn to exist. The Hon. Member
-id he (Mr. C.) therefore called I
- motion for an Ad.
the general Portia-
ith the prerogative,
necessity.was made out.
he accounts be desired
hoped the House Would
He objected to
Crown is every In.

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stance, to ;ender an account of every appointment which
it made.
• Lord JOHN RIISSEJ.L.said that the Right •Hes.
Gentleman, by refusing the motion. was narrowiag
;.,the means of information, and the House, iii agreeisg
with the Right Hon. tientletuan, would act iuconsist-
rutty with itself. In support of the motion, he called
1 the attention of the House to the Returns laid on the.
table of the House last year. Th 4 Right Hon. Gentle.
man said it was not usual oi make those Returns, unless
blame was imputed, or abuse shown to exist ; but Mt
Noble Marquess who filled the office which was in pew
session of the Right Honourable Gentleman, granted
papers last year without any such imputation. la the
motion of last year, reference was then made to the then
recent appointment of Mr. Henry W. W. Wynn, sod
there was no objection on that account to accede to t
motion. If the House refused the present motion, they
would refuse one similar to that to which they agreed
last year. He was glad to hear that the Minister Piet&
potentiary to Switzerland was to be reduced to half that
rank. Although the motion of last year bad but a bad
division (he meant by that a small minority), yet be was
glad that a reduction followed in consequence of that.di-
vision ; so that even small minorities were not wittiest
effect:
Air. HUME said that be hoped the Right Hop. Gentmi
would withdraw his opposition to the motion. Last year
the House was furnished with a statement of the expend-1
tore in that class of the Civil List, from the year 1793 tel
.1821, both included. distinguishing the various mission
the rank of the Ministers, and their salaries end otherex
penses. All that his Hon. Friend wanted at present w
what alterations were made since? If the Right Hoe.o
refused that information, bow could they none prepared t
discuss the motion which his Hon. Friend intended to su
mit? Suppose We lion. Friend should, in his statemen
notice the expenditure of 19,0001. in the mission to Flo-
rence, the Right lion. Gent. might taunt him with misrepre:
sentation, and-esy that was an unfounded allegation, for at
alterittion was made in that mission. The expenditure of
that clatwof the Civil List was beyond all moderation :—IC
the year 1818, we paid 257,000 i. in 1819, it rose to 325,0001. i
in 1820, it was 289,000 f. and in 1821, it was 299,41571 whoa.'
we had the whole charge of that class of expenditure o;
the House, it would exceed the sum of 300,0001. Het
at.
pealed to the candour of the Right lion. Gent. to put Mb
House in possession of those papers for which his Howl
Friend called.
Mr. HIJSKISSON opposed the motion. The Piptieg.'l,
ri
were granted last year, for reasons very different f ,
those which influenced the Hon. Gentleman, who avow
that his object was to let Parliament see how far a a -
ing ought to be effected in tke expenditure. The p
ciple which ought to govern the jiouse in those veers
was laid down by Mr. Fox, an authority that the Han.
Member fur Aberdeen would acknowledge. Mr. Fox
laid down, that the Civil List ought not to be made aim
subject of inquiry in th at !louse, unless abuse was proqd,
or unless there wai a call on the House to provide r
the payment of the debts of the Crown, by making an
addition to the Civil List. it was not within the proper
province of the House of Commons to inquire how such
ought to be allowed to our Minister at Florence, or at
anv other Court, while the Crown confined its es palms
within the Civil List allowed it by that House. Podia;
meta had no right to inquire. He maintained thatun-,
less a case was made out of gross abuse in the applio
talon of any.part of the money granted on account of
the Civil List, the House had no right to inquire. -Tie'
object of the Hon. Member's motion was the very strong-
est reason why the House should not yield to the prosier,
Lion of the account. His object was not to ampute
blame, but to determine by the authority of that Hoirila•
bow much ought to he granted to each facelift **in.
If there were to application to htereelw theTivilllist„
then indeed accounts of the expenditure in every class of
that list might, with propriety, be called for. The Hon.
Member for Aberdeen, in his statement of the trove ex-
penditure of the foreign missions, bad confoinoled two
things that were as different as possible—namely, the
salaries of the Ministers to foreign Courts and the con-
tingencies of that class. The House was entitled to call
for the latter, because that sort of expenditure was a
matter for the cognizance of Parliament. The Ministers
of this country were exposed to greater expenses than
the foreign missions of other countries, and yet he found
that time expense of the foreign missions of France for the
last year, was between seven and eight millions of byres;
that lie knew, for he had taken the trouble to look into
it, and ascertain the fact. He opposed the taotios on the
grounds, that the inquiry was intended to decide what
persons should he in future sent on foreign missions, and
what should be the allowance to them.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said be was glad to hear
the name of Mr. Fox cited as authority by the Right
Hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench. It was said
that a prophet had no influence in his own country. lie
might mention, as a parallel maxim, that a great man was
not acknowledged while living ; it was alter his death
that lie began to be respected. So it was with the name
of Mr. Foc, whose authority was quoted, from the other
side of the House, for any purpose they pleased. Bat he
was certain that Mr. Fox never maintained any sneh doc-
trine as was imputed to him. lie had no doubt. indeed,
but Mr. Fox, at a time when charges of extravagance in
the personal expenses of members of the Royal Family
were made in that House, did lay down that it was not
usual to bring under the view of Parliament the personal
expenses of the Crown or the Members of the Royal Fa-
mily. It ow the duty of that House to see how the mo-
ney granter olittni Civil List was expended. It was ra-
ther singular that the case of France should be instants
ed, as if a sympathy existed between the Governments of
France and England (hear, bear) to be extravagant in
those missions, and to palliate them by referring one to
the other. When this country, however, had no longer
any influence with foreign Courts(hear, hear), notwith-
standing all Ali* extravagance, that was no time to main-
tain that Parliament had no right to inqnire into the
mode in which the money was applied.—(llcar, bear.)—
But it was net stated, on the other side, that any incon-
venience would arise from granting the atenuets-called
for. That was a department of the Civil List in which
the House bad an interest, because all the savings effect-
ed in it were to go to the account of the Consofidated
Fund. lie was not by any means satisfied to find the
prerogative of the Crown pleaded in answer to every
claim for saving, which the circumstances of the country
required. This prerogative was brought forward on all
occasions when Parliament was called upon to its duty.
He saw many reasons for supporting the motion, and he
ho the House !
benches,
tbe subservient ever hint
artfro the Ministeriaol or abandon its palpable du-
ty on the present occasion.
Mr. LP:SNARL) briefly replied. He trusted that the
House would not abandon the principle which it had
agreed to in the last Session. With regard to the obser-
vations of the Hon. Member for Harwich, he did not
mean to treat him with any disrespect, hut he really was
obliged to say, that he did not think he had read the pa-
rrs in question before he got up to address the House.
tie begged pardon for the mistake he made in alluding
to the Hon. Member for Harwich ; it was the Hon.',
Member for Liverpool that be intended to speck of. In
the present overwhelming state of distress, the country
bad a claim to reduction of every kind, mid there was a
fair occuaisio to effect a saving in Ow third class of the
Civil List. It reduction hail been made, he asked to
see an official account of them, if it were only to save
himself from accusations of ignorance diereafter. His
motion was similar to that of Is2l, and as he could not
anticipate any good result from withdrawing it to sub-
stitute one of the same nature of last year, he wont
persevere in pressing it to a division.
The gallery was then cleared for a division o—i Ayes I
24;—Noes 50 I—Majority against the motion Iki. •
(for the remainder 91 Debuts see last page.) .

4

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