The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-04-17 00:00:00

MATP.SMAN.

it's objectival. Theagh be was a sealuns advocate
for the removal of Roman Catholic dismtalificattion,
te could not support this Bill in the shape in which
it ball come up from the other Honer. Indeed, be
believed he could say for many of his Noble Friends,
and for the friends of this measure in this House,
that, in their opinion, modifications might, and ought
ts be introduced into this Bill, so as to do away with
the moat obnoxious clauses in it. The second part
the Bill began with enacting a compulsory oath
tor the Roman Catholic Clergy. Ile must confess be
did not like the principle of compulsory oaths. He
ili•1 not remember any recent instance of a compulsory
oath, except that which was imposed on the Clergy
of Prance, at the beginning of the Revolution. They
were obliged to take an oath to the Constitution, un-
der the pain of deportation ; but he had the satisfaction
of remembering that that oath did not emanate from
an established ilovernment. The oath imposed by
,' this Bill every clergyman would he compelled to take,
ander the penalty of being punished as for a misde-
meanour. He objected to it, not only because it was
a compulsory oath, but also because, in his opinion,
it was unnecessary. It was rendered unnecessary by
the reference which was made to another tribunal, in
order to ascertain the loyalty of the Dean or Bishop
. ,elect. If they believed the clergyman on his taking
the compulsory oath, there was no necessity for the
tribonal ; or if they preserved the tribunal, where was
the necessity of the oath ? Ile trusted, therefore, that
, their Lordship% would have no objection to leave out
this oath altogether. With respect to the two com-
missions which time Bill erected in Ireland, andat here,
at the seat of tiovernment, he would p:opnse th they
'humid be incorporated into one ; that there might be
„only one commission, which should he at ached to the
tioverousent here. Indeed he was convinced that this
commission, whose business it was to inspect all re-
se.ripts and other documents from Rome, would have
very little to do. He sal persuaded that no improper
recontmentlation would ever clime in any rescript from
the Pope, or his council, to these cenutriere and that,
in truth, it would seldom have occasion to exercise its
. powers. There was another amendment he should
propose in the Committee. It W3b in OW power of
this Board to reject any person proposed us a Dean or
Bishop. It mm as an unpleasant situation for any per-
son to be placed in, to be rejected by hi% Majesty's
Ministers on account of supposed disaffection ; but
this was not enough according to the Bill as it now
stood ;—he was :malted—lseiwaspusied—he was to be
. put on the rolls of the Court of Chancery as a 'Jack
. Thep—lee might be referred to from generation to
generation as a pe.sint deemed tintritstoorthy by Isis
isfeje.ty's elovernment. He intended to propose, th it
instead of being put on the Bulls of the Cuter' rof
• ~Chancery, the name of the person [Disapproved of
shall be only entered on the uminute-hook of the Board.
There was another alteration he should propose also
respecting this Board. In page 15 it was provided
. that all documents transmitted to Rowe are to be sub-
jected to the inspecti.in of the whole Board, with the
• exception of confessional ours, or papers relating:
solely :o the spiritual concerns of 11. e ind;v.dua's.
Any person who would take an oath that such WAS t e
rata' e of any document was dispensed from sub:slitting
• it to the whole Dosed, he might lay it before time Pre-
_ eident alone. Now the obligation of time Catholic
C'erieytnen to secrecy was binding against the
whole world, Ecclesiastics as well as Laity.
excepting only the head of their own Church
This clause, therefore, was furring the Cathode
Cle:gy to art against their consciences and their
oaths. The alteration that he proposed to he made
was, that the oath of the Clergyman, that the doen
: them was purely relating to matters of confession,
should be conclusive. The situation in which be
. (Lord D.) was place I, was one f extreme nitliculty.
As the advocate of time Catholics lie was bound to Ito
what lie coal,' for time measure, but i:e felt that he
was hound to pro ect the interests of all Catholics
alike, and It • h .41 no ri4ht to sacrifice time Catholic
• Clergy. . hey desire s n timing but to remain as they
• et present were; they IV .nted nothing font the State;
fley were content to stand io the situation in which
us it daily bread depended on the performance of
• their slaty. The Bill should not edam Oise those to
whom it gave nothing. He agreed that they were
rot to tr at with the Catholics, btu to legislate fur the
whole commussitv.--(Ilear). Neither did he under
valu• the tcrupirs of the Pratestants. 'I bee were
ether parts of the s cond Bill which lie did not con-
' s•der ahjectionable. He did nut see that it cools' he
reasonably objected that a Board should examine ad
iratruall•nts s. nt into this kingdom front Rome. Whis-
t:sit consisleriug what the feeling of the Catholics was,
te !shout I say, hat its u4la in his opinioa it was au-
'• neceswy, it was a measn -e that Parliament, if they
tlsest,tl s xpeslie.st, had a right to enforce. What
ils feelings .•nd treitsions we e on any great question
on which he had taken the pains to for... an opinion,
to did not think it. right to go out of his way to con-
-'ml. Ile should br glad that the Catholics had any
thing to give in retr.rn f. rr the great liberality of
Parlia.s:ent. Su far trout the to asnre being car
tied in the spirit of victory, he s .onld be sorry
it should be passed ut something like an
r anivalent. With respect to the Veto, be had
. ro objeciion to it ; he was sorry that this was not the
Kesteral feeling of his countrymen. As he consideres:
. security unnecessary, therefore, be wonlsl not go the
• length of hurting the feelings of a great holly of men.—
He was pet suads d that no wan would he recommended to
'• I is alit'ysty's tiovernment whom they would have aright
to disapprove of, and he was just as ttttt eh persuaded
that the I government would not go out of their way to
- end raptious objections. It was his opinion, that with
. the:Veto, the same, persons would be Illshops and Deans
its without it. The Noble Earl, in conclusion, thanked
trait. I.Ortlship for the indulgence they had sheen
It s ittittg• the rase of his Catholic countrymen, he hoped
- he had not inj iiremi the feelings of any one, for after
"- the example of so proper am! temperate a discus-
- • elan of this great question in the other House of Par-
. Dame*, be should he sorry to afford an ovening to
• artber tune of debate among their Lordships. Ile
si oara the seePtid reading of the Wit.
, Se.yeral Peer,. rose to adders% the !louse. The Lord
' C;secelirit tired on
—The Earl of MANSFIELD, wl,o said that it was his
• ''• antlintiOn to express. as concisrly as his halsks permitted,
•oss, • .:his sadinion on the Bill before their Lordships, which had
• so.banis formed on mature refection, and which a pretty
:A; leoz residcnie in Catholic conenies Lad tended to con-
. ig: Time Bill before theta hail two parts. time one ti.
.4. r oder all offices open to the Catholics, the secourt•to
rieulatitheir imaterromarse with the See. of liteat.e."
isseon 4 /fart many of the Catholie..had .theurielve,
Rested. ells objection, Imenever, was to the tirst par

stlotMlMllllell=l.ll=l=-'-----_
to the priariple of removing the disabilities fouln a the
nsl to
Catholics—(bear!).—The Catholics set no
their expectation• t for if any one supposed the exthe-
lies of Ireland would he satisfies) without aalinission into
all the offices of the State, without seeing their 'Clorgv
men admitted into berieficea. He (Lord Itiaasfie!a)
thought that the person who ronld eonw to mob a con-
clusion, hail shown little foresight es to the general
principles of the struggles of parties, or little, attention
to the Catholic Clergy in particular—(hcar,
hear'.).—It
was hinted by some, that as the Presbyterian was the
established religion of Scotland, so the Catholic might
be the established religion of Ireland, leaving the Pro-
testant. merely tolerated. great as his obrtions
would be to such a change, be should think it ar safer
rr
to legislate in this way, than by gradnal conce
sion to give them the political power which this
end might he attained—(bear, hear, hebayr '.). —lly
Constitution, the Catholics were excluded from office.
It might be samurai that there had been a necessity
for the exclusion of the Catholics. If that necessity
so longer existed, it must either have been from
an alteration in the Catholics themselves, or in their
religion. Their religion was declared unchangeable.
As to the Catholics themselves, would it be said,
" you were formerly inconsiderable in your numbers
in relation to the whole empire, yet we dreaded you
for the foreign influence with which you were con•
nected ; yet, now we find that you are snore numerous.
and we doubt not, that your whither% will insole your
moderation, and we open the Constitution to yno with
some reservations, designed, really, only to lull un-
thinking Protestants. 'I he history and conduct of
the Church of Rome deserved Souse consideration.
The desire of power anal dominion in that Church
was unchangeable anal remained susaliminished. The
power of the Pope in this country was put down at
the time of the Reformation ; but it continued in full
rigour in Spain, in the Netherlands, anal in other
countries; the consequence was that no liberal spiri,
was cherished ; no, the worst abuses were confirmed;
the Church denounced vengeance against all wh,,
should oppose it. He •% as willing to admit that from
the power of the Pope in these days there was no peat
icause of alarm ; but ovnat security had this country that
the successors of his Holiness would cherish a similar
1
idisposition? lie spirit which animated the whole of
1 ' their institutions was a spirit directed not merely to
the establishment of spiritual power, but of temporal
ascendancy. 'Ube Priesthood knew well how to ens-
iploy the means of effecting those objects--they
watched over the appreachiog hour of dissolution,
and prevailed on the expiring penitent too enrich their
order by lorge donations—their mysteries, their cere-
monies, and their sacrifices all 'cooled to one object—
the enlargement of their power. The state of the
Roman Catholic Church in France afforded a strong
instance of this. At the Revolution the property of
the Church was seopiestere.l—the Priests were
obliged to fly for refill:to and protection to fo-
reign countries; so great. indeed. was the ron•enspt
in which the religion was held ius France. that even
Napoleon, with ail his popularity anal power, nos not
abbe to get that religion respected, even when he es-
tablished it by law. On the return of Louis the !dill,
the Clergy int.reased their pretensions and their tic:i-
cily. 'I he consequence was, flout the religion had
ately made an a.toonishing progress. S o much so,
that in some places they claimed anal obtained the res.
titntion of Church property, even from persons to
whose possession it came h. descent or by purchase.—
In thee parts of France, the Clergy inforeed the p ty-
ment of tithes. In stating these facts, hi. object was
to slew t •at the Raman Catholic religion aimed at no-
thing less than absolute powerll4l matter what cau-
tion might be use.i—no in titer what top;utosing force
might be employed. W lien t list force was
once removed, the -pitit of innovation peenliar
' to that religion, was sure to he exerted wills increased
••nergy, anal spread over a great space. the recollected
having had a c-onversation o • a former oi•casion willt
a Foreizner of olistitiction, who said to him. that as a
zealous Catholic he regretted the failure of die measure,
Lot so well did be know the character of the Roman
Catimiie Church—its unabated desire of power in
Civil Government, that if he were a Nletnher of the
British Parliament he wonlol liar!' resisted it. The
Noble Earl Isere entered into a recital of the civil
privileges which the Bill before the douse porported
'to grant to the Catholics.—The Bill held, that the
Sovereign shuul a he a Prote-cont, but it perutiquol his
Ministers to be Catholics. 'flue Catholic.. by the
Bill, were prevented from siting as .11;3:.:es in Eccle-
siastical Courts, but the Bill slid nut prevent Cathol es
front interfering indirectly at least, with th,• Protest-
ant Church. 'I here was no provision iti the dill to
io.e.ent a Catholic from being a Preceptor to the their
Apparent—there was no security that a Catholic re-
eeptor, coitutenanced by a C itholic Minister, might
nut peryett the religions and political principles of
his pupil. The Bill prevented C Mollies from heal ling
the place of Lord Listen ant of Ireland ; hut the Se-
cretary for Ireland might be a Catholics—the Secre-
tary, in whose hands the efficient power of the Ad-
atinistration lay—every suggestion, every representa-
tion to the Lord Lieutenant was made by his co,vti-
I• tidal adtiser, and that aalviser alight-be a Catholic.
but it was said, that the influence of Catholics would
not he considerable; he contended that they would
have power in the other (louse of Parliament, while
in that House, in addition to the Catholic Peers who
would immediately come in, a titinoher of Catholic
Peers might he created by a Catholic Minister. The
Catholic party would have considerable p.ower ; and
any party acting. in Parliament aili energy and per-
•ey ranee trust ultimately obtain success. In such a
state of things, what, he would ask, would i revent
the Catholics from 'lndiot with the Dissenters to op-
pose the Church Establishment, to whirl' both parties
weer equally hostile' There was one argument whirli
' f true, won'd be certainly calculated to tua'n• a strong
impression in favour i.f the Bill—it was that the
measure would tend to conciliate the people of
Ireland. To attain that object there was scarcely any
saerifice that he would topsider La) great—but when
:/cople talked of conciliating Ireland, they merely
lool.etl to a part of*the people of that country—they
did not take into consiolt•ratian the Protestants tit
Ireland. '!'here were indeed auolingst the Protestants
many who, in the generosity of their feelings, over-
looked the dangers of granting poll heal power to
their Catitolie fonntrympti. To the recollection of
those generons hat mistaken men, he tronlil :veal the
Arts of the Catholic Parliament and Clergy in due
rear 10.9. They repealed the Act of Settlement—
leec seized on the rereimes of tile Protestant Clattrt•li
-they cLiniel tiihrs -and dr ..;'. ,„.;:!.; .sun..,,

who affected to protect the Protestant Church. and
ordered a restoration of the property, the Priests
set his order at defiance, and declared that the King
had no controul over Minters concerning the Church.
The Noble Lord nest observeth that of the system of
exclusion so long estahlished the &Minify had no
'rinse to complain. The Catholic religion had a pte-
dilection fur arbitrary power. The Presbyterian
leant towards democracy—but the Protestant religion.
worthy of the people who happily acknowledged its
way, taught the maxims of charity, justice, rational
liberty, order, moderation.—(Cheers.)--That glorious
fabric over which their ancestors watched with
pious care, was now menaced with danger. Should
its natural protectors withdraw their assistance from
it, it would sink for ever, and in its ruins would be
hnried, the property, the knowledge, the liberty, the
distinguishing virtues of this country.
The Bishop of LONDON said, that after the eloquent
speech which had just been pronounced, he rose mulct
peculiar disadvantages; those disadvantages were in-1
creased liv the speech of the Noble Earl (Dononghmore),
whose address was remarkable for temper and ability.
On former occasions he contented himself with giving
a silent vote on this question ; lie would now beg to
state the reasons, why he was under the painful neces-
sity of opposing the present Bill. He objected both to
the principle and to the form of the measure. To the'
Catholics he was willing to grant the unfettered enjoy-
ment of their property, and the fair administration of
equal laws. If he resisted their claim for politic4l
power, it was because he was apprehensive that the ex-
ercise of that power by them would he slaticerons to the
Protestant Establishment. The Catholic Religion (how-
ever respectable might he the conduct of many of the
Catholics) assumed unlimitted dominion over the minds
and consciences of men; and it followed as a matter of
course, that no oath, however solemn—no allegation,
hint: ever sacred, could be made by a Cathay. with-
out an important reservation on ilia part is favour
of the rights of hit Church. He did ere mate
this fur the purpose of ealomaiatieg the Ca-
( holie, or of insinuating that they disregarded the
obligation of an oath. The Pretrebases imply held
I
their ditty to God as above all where' the cwtholic,
Iheld their duty to (god and their Aar; m the Creed);
i their oa Is was, therefore, to be ertimeted with mare-
cure to this reservation—a rearvvaikar. se awe%
j arltich 'hey conscientiously made. Tbat ceeeklevatiesi
Ihe confessed, weighed much with him; it had Breit
, weight with vie leading characters of the Revo utieu ;
they, litter .1 and enlightened as they were, saw no
Isecurity fur the Church but in inakitiz thet;overoineot
essentially P otestant, and in excluding the Catholics
from plar...s of trust, of power, and anthority. The
necessity of that exclusion was still acknowled ri in
the rive of the King; but if the Sovereign was to be
striven from his 'I hrone for professiitz the Roman Ca-
tholic religi .n, lie did not see why a subject should
complain of political exclusion. ahe Bill also ex-
Ousted Catholics from the offices of Lord Chancellor
and Luc I Lieutenant of Island. On what priniVe,
then, slid it allow them to he Privy Cise-cillors, Meas•
hers of Parliament. and Governors of Colonies ? In
tie Colonies, remote from domestic controul, the reli-
gion of the State stood in need of all the assistance
of law—it wonI•1 stand in need of the countenance of
a toste.ing and a friendly Gov/mown% Dist they sty-
pose, that from a Catholic Governor the P.otestant
veil:thin would receive that cAintenance ? lie sincerely
believed that the measure would temd to peat mischief
it' it • ill not prove altogether fatal to the interests of
t lie Colonies. When he turned from the Colonies to the
state of Ireland, be saw still greater cause for alarm. lie
believed the measure was dangerous to the interests of
the establishments there. He could not agree with jist.
aim thought that the Bill, if passed into a last', WOlllll
oratioce such mighty effects on the condition of the
Irish people; it would make no sensibly alteration in
the condition of the Irish people ; it would make no sen-
sible alteration in the condition of the population of
England—from it the body of the people %%mild receive
no accession of wealth, of comfort, of personal independ-
ence; the higher orders of the laity ;alone would he be-
nefited by the measure, but the hotly of the people wool,'
remain as discontented as ever. Of the 1. atliolie Clergy,
he was inclined to speak in terms of respect, hut they
were me—they looked up to their church, whic the
believed should. hold the highest Anil most commah ndinyg
station ; they looked upon all other religions as found-
ed in error, and as unhallowed usurpations; their ambi-
tion and their pride were identified with a sense of
duty ; cowl: Motion would only excite then' to work withbe
more activity on the feelings of their flocks, it would
acceptable to them only as it might afford an opportu-
nity of future ien o-atiiiii, and thus concession would
prove a signal of battle—not a sign of peace. The mew-
sure was nut a measure of conciliation—it was reeeived
by the Catholics with Mingo aion—by the Protestants
with dissae:sfaction, because the restraints which to the
Catholics were vexations, to the Protestants were not sa-
tisfactory. On the nature of those securities he would
sac a few% words. If the Bill intended to legalize the
Catholic llierarchy, some regulation to prevent even 1
the suspicion of their intercourse with the Court I
of Rouse, would be lost reasonable anal necessary.—
But the danger which was to he apprehended was
not likely to fir • out of open rebellion, out of any
system which would explode in violent anal sudden i
rummution ; the danger was rather to he apprehended
from eh inges, which, in process of nine, the secret
but active perseverance of the Catholics would bring
about in the Legislature and Government of the country.
Against that danger no regulation that wisdom could
des i.e, wools! be a sufficient goareutee. flow ii milli it
be possible to restrain the Catholics from the exerciseof
power once psi d, from carrying by their influence
the Elections in Ireland, from exelmiing their youth
11. the schools of Jesuits, from extending hy every
means in their intinenceand power—power which would
stand stet i' tray hostile, and might prove ultimately
f ital to the Protestant Establishment:
The Ihitir of SCSSEX declared that he bad always
considered the present question as one of great magni-
tude. :mil indeed of vital consequence to the empire.
Hr liad always considered it with a due regard to
those principles which placed upon the Throne that fa-
mily of which lie was a humble member. In looking
at the 9lie•tion their Lordships ought, in Isis opinion.
to examine the origin of tits obnoxious and excli, dye
law,. a 1.1 see whether those laws were consonant to
the ',testa opinion of the Catholics. Untlunbtedly, at
the period at which those laws were frameti, there
was .10,4 e reason to justify them, and it was tint to
I.l' e.:ltt •:.::e4l that those reasons were coupled with %irony
it ritati.m. Bid a material change had taken place its
id t cunistaoces. a stronger proof of which could nut he ea -
hittitiol than that which might he collected from the Pe-
;i.siii tin their Lordships Table—Petitions couched it
teral, ,o r, gpertftt! as to co notantl their Lordships
attraction. lie would now proceed to examine the an
.211111'904 of the Rirlit Reverend Prelaie who hail just
spoken. just observing at the outset that it struck him
'%41 much c.,:truiion sr.).e frutu itii,uoaiers ; 4111 013!