The Statesman.
London, England, 1819-05-18 00:00:00

Tim STATNSMAN;

Church of Eogtand.—(/leer,hear:)—lndeed,
was one Member of the E.tablithed Church of
.this
realm (the Church of [friend), that could sot be of
very long duration, if the civil privileges now claimed
by the Catholics of Ireland wire conceded. What
would become of the Protestant establishment with
Catholic civil fenctionarie , what would become of •
Protestant Government with Catholic counsellors 1—
The Prelate enecleded by Caressing a hope, that
vote of their Lordships that night would show lbo
dangers which they apprehended from the dtem•sdl
of the Catholic body.
The Ea►l of IIOSEBERRY, in a maiden speech,
supported the motion.

bad attest a lawyer, and one of elevated rank ton,
Indeed recopying a seat at that moment within thole
wally, oboes professionally casaistical habits bail,
he regretted, warped his mind and narrowed hit
tipsy% upon some sehjvcts of general policy. Others
he had known, and of whom be could speak with
pleats'', whose legal attainments added solidity and
weight in the general acquirements which constituted
the scholar and the statesman. Such had beets that
eminent and 'salient man whose loss all matt de-
plore, who could recollect, with him, the profound.
nets of his legal research, and the amiable disposi-
Hon of • mind min notions to apply, with healing
influence, a remedy In the seictio•s and wrongs of his

Lord DE DON STA NVI LLE opposed the mo. I fellow-orMures. He waa usi • Olin tenter into a pro.
lion in a speech of which, from the crowd and noise fessional contest with so abl tagonistastbeNable
behind the bar, we could roily catch a few sentences. Lord, but when the subject to be discussed happen.
The LORD CHANCELLOR opposed the mo. ed to be connected with legal topics, he should not
lion. If the Noble Earl who brought it forward, In relinquish, on that account, his post, bat using the
, place of objecting to the oath of supremacy, told i I best lights he had on the abject, support to the tat-
them what other oaths he meant to proposal's,' substi. I most the side en which be Imagined jostle, lay. If
tete, to reconcile the minds of Protestants to the the views of the Noble Lord were well founded, he
measure, this would have been better. It would be I
conceived there must be an end of she question alto.
desirable that the Noble Earl had stated what he ether; namely, that by the tier•vssre construction
I meant to propose in the Committee, if their Lord• of a Protestant Constitution, the fotrodection of our
ships should agree to it. Though as warm • friend I Catholic fellow-subjects into the bosom of the State
of religious toleration as any matt, be must declare I was sot only inespedient, but inadmissible is Ou-
tbid, es a lawyer, be did not know by what form of : eiple. It would be necessary for the Noble Lord to
oath the Protestants could be satisfied, or how the I define what he meant by a Constitution mended,
doctrineof the 'Tidiest supremacy of the Popel Protestant. It would be also necessary to show
could be reconciled with the King's supremacy.— what was the tendency of any proposed alters.
What hope was there that, consistently with the don in the State, or how far it might militate
Constitution, the two could be reconciled in a Com. sgainst the Constitution. Upon this view of the
mitts... If Roam Catholics in 1660. in 1668, and question, he was prepared to combat the positions
down to the present time, did not admit the tenets at.: and arguments of the Noble Lord. Ile should
tributed to them or to their Church, the GovernmetO groot.diat bytheßenlation our Constitution had been
of this cooniry was guilty of a most scandalous de. I rendered fundamentally and essentially Protestant ;
minion. If they looked to what was the opinion of in ibis way, that was to say, It had been provided by
Parliament in the time of Charles 11. to what rased I law, with a view to secure per religion from Catholic
in 1688, when a compact was entered into between influence, and finally being overwhelmed, thereby
the People and the Throne, that the Church should that nor Monarch should be a professor of the este.
be Protestant and the Crown Protestant, they would blishrd religion. So said the Bill of Rights and the
find that the known and acknowledged Mums of the Act of Settlement. As adjuncts to these principal
Catholics were the WOliar'S for the measures then pass. bulwarks or securities, others which might be dents.
ed. It was an argnmeot commonly employed eau minuted collateral had been added at different times;
occasions like this, that men should be perfectly free some previously, others subsequently to the period of
in their religions opinions, and that it was intolerant the passing these Acts. The most of these arose'
to visit them fur mach opinions with civil disqualifies. oat of circumstances very peculiar, and open Do-
does. Ile was no friend to persecution or into. casinos in which it was impossible the country
letance, bat a Legislator should not forget that could ever feel itself again placed. The Noble
religious opinions had political effects, and that FAO thee proceeded to take a review of the sem.
places of trust were such as none mild fairly rat Acts of Parliament passed against the Who.
claim, eacept upon the conditions *bids the Le. lice, commencing with the Corporatios Oath, in the
/Waters judged necessary for the safety of the early part of the reign of Charlie 11. which was fol.
State. On these principles it was settled that none lowed by the Test Act, eleved particularly against
but a Protestant should fill the Throne. It was the Doke of York, the occasion for which therefore
judged a necessary part of the system, that be was no longer ',listed. Nest followed the Act of the
cot to be 'emended by Roman Catholic', in his 30th of Charles 11. which excluded Catholics from
Council, in Parliament, in places of high tress, civil seats in Parliament. But this Act, *Mob had been
as writ as military. This was natural. What ono- called by the Noble and Loomed Lord a .i.e end
city could there be for a Protestant Crown ender any deliberate , arose, as was now acknowloilgod,
other circumstances ? To this it might be answered, oat of the heats sod ferments oecosioned by l'i.os
that Roman Catholics sat in Parliament previous to Oats's plot. Neat, in the reign of George I was
the lime of Charles 11. True; hot them they were passed the Act prohibiting Catholics from voting fee
to consider what was done its 1688, as well as by the Members of Parliament ; bat at this time the Pro.
Act of Union with Scotland, by which the Celestite. distant S ion trembled, and the country was
lion in Church and State, as it then stood, wasps. fell of Cathodes, anions to restore the elided family.
ranteed. Were they now to glee up a system, to Now that family was wholly extinct ; and he would
bring into danger a Constitution under which every ask of the Noble Lord, did he really believe that
religious sect enjoyed more liberty of conscience than if every one of these laws were repealed, there
was ever known doubt in any former period of their would be any fear of the Protestant Establishment
history down to Charles II.? Were they to give being endangered, or of the inn of she Prince
op
all those rests established for the security of the neat Heir to the Throne being iiiterrepted? lie
Church and State? After each a proposal as this, be mentioned the origin of these laws, to show that the
should be surprised at nothing. The discovery of a motives for them no longer elided, and therefore
North-west passage, or ally other event equally im. that they might and eight to be repealed. Ile would
probable, could not surprise him more, than to hear it ask the Noble Lord, who bad declared be bed read
said that Roman Catholics and others were 'delis's. and deeply considered Mr. Locke's Letters, which
We to Parliamerstias well as to places of the most ie. declared, that sot only was the Catholic Religion
portant trust, without taking any oaths at all. He one not to be tolerated, but that it was a crime to
could only ay, that if there was one such present be punished. The Noble and Learned Lord had de-
in the House, be (the Lord Chancellor) would elided he did not go that length with Mr. Locke.
deserve to be impeached if he took his vote that 'deb'. —lle wished to ask the Noble sod Learned Lord
The Learned Lord then proceeded to cite opinions no if he aimed with Mr. Locke, that the Catholics
the subject of the King's supremacy, as being irre. held no faith with heretics ; that they considered
concilable with spiritual allegiance to the Pope ; and Sovereigns escommenitated by the Pope es bevies
said, that he felt it his duty, holding the situation forfeited their crowns, and so no longer having
which he dW,and the high trust of a Privy Councillor, a claim to the allegiance of their subjects. The
to declare, that, friendly as he was to toleration, he Noble •nd Learned Lord said, he did not iss.
could agree to it only so far se would pre‘ervi• un- puce so much as this in the Catholics, yet he did not
touched the supremacy of the King, both in Church consider the Catholic disclaimer of these tenets as full
and State. Lord Hartle icke, on one occasion, declared, enough. What faller disclaimer would she Noble
in the !louse of Lords, that lint only ought the forms, and leaned Lord have beyond that given icy the
bat, as far as possible, the principles of the Protest. Catholics in the oath they were ready to take, and
ant Religion to be preserved ; that the Protestant that contained in the declaration of their Cniversi.
Religion was the
Constitution. With this opinion of Lord Hardwick', ed most satisfactory. On the whole, be considered
in addition to that of other learned and eminest men, that the laws passed to exclude Catholics. having ion
and having repeatedly sworn in that House not to outlived the circumstances in which they had their
recognise any foreign influence, how could he or any origin, they ought to be repealed, es a step towards
Noble Loud come to a vote which was to give the which the motion of his Noble Friend should
Popo an influence in this country ? It was argued be adopted. The Noble Lord then referred to the
that the Pope, if he had any jerisdictioo, could times of the Edwards, previous to the Reformation,
only have an ecclesiastical jurisdiction. Now for instances to prove that the subjects, though pre.
on the subject of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, there fessiug spiritual allegiance to the Pope, never failed
Was an old man, who hail sometimes been called to obey the civil mandate of their S ign. That
a good lawyer, one Lord Coke, who esplaining this one of our Edwards bad even declared himself ready
law one day to the Lord Bishop of Norwich, told to wags war with the Pope; a plain proof he bad no
the Learned Prelate distinctly that the Bishops hod apprehensions on the score of his subjects' allegiance.
no ecclesiastical jurisdiction but what was given them Se in the reign of Eliabeth, when that Sovereign
by the Statute or Common Law; and be, following was opposed to Philip of Spain, the moat powerful
that great lawyer, now declared, as a statesman end I Catholic Sovereign of the day, and all the than.
e lawyer, that there was no ecclesiastical jurisdiction dens of the Papal Throne, her Catholic subjects re.
eacept that described by Lord Coke; and as is Pro- omitted loyally and faithfully attached to her. The
testant Peer, sitting in a Protestant House of Par. articles of the Union with Ireland, it was true,
dement, under a Protestant King, he could not con. Iprovided for tho preservation of the religion which
sent to the adoption of a measure which was to have was established in the State, but they did not con-
dor effect of introdocting a foreign ecclesiastical ju. tain one word to prevent the removal of the disabili.
'Wittier,. which no oath could restrain from 'spend. ties which affect the Catholics. Instead of repress-
ing against the Protestant Establishment, His 0116 lag any objection to such a measure, a contrary in.
inilividoal vale was of little consequence ; but he • terpretation had very strong grounds for being imp.
felt his it duty to declare that lie never would base I pelted. Ilia Majesty's Ministers, who drew si,
persevered in the line of conduct he had done, unless I these articles, foresaw the necessity which would alias
he had conscientinsly felt that Ise should not do his of an investigation of them disabilities a. well as of
duty to his Sovereign, or to the People over whom ; their removal.—(/leer, hear !) No doubt could be
he was to reign as a Protestant Sovereign, or to the: notertained that if the Irish Parlivment hail conti.
Constitution of the land, if he dud not oppose the I need, that the Catholics would have been restored to
!the freedom which they had formerly possessed. The
motion proposed by the Noble Lord this n.ght.
Eat! GREY said, he was mot one of those 4th article of the Unioi. stipelaisil that certain ma-
ybes', missile seemed to be much dreaded by the Winne should continue in force until Parliament
:'!oble and Loomed Lord, nor hail be ever entertain. ithould otherwise provide. So far, therefore, from
ed for a moment the idea described as a truism, that its being a fundamental principle in the ertir:es of
all lawyers wet, bad politicians. Ile mush disavow IL, Union with Ireland, tie spirit of policy which
a censure so 'Hahnel sod unmerited by so enlielitenvil dictated that measure toted it necessary to look for.
and numerous a class of soci•ty ; but he thought he ward to tba grant of civil lihrt 11. It bad been said,

•
11111-•• J A

OM power I
for all other

to t
hod n le thy►

or all .. gram . in theft.—
The Noble Lord, es well as the foamed Pie •11.•
teeeed to suppose tI-at all the officers in the arose and
in the nave, a, well as all the peuinsis 1101'16,4 ntbres
ender the Government would he of that persioasion, es
if his Majesty were immetli.teli to sidled. all his pro.
',stint subjects, end select no other for hese /Pei*
lions. The Catholics as on!d then .aril all his other
*objects in abilities and ie pet severance, and the Kiug
would then choose only those mm0'14,011.4 by say
representation of Parliaateut. Ile would maintain
that eligibility to offices of treat, when such was not
injurious of detrimental to the welfare ..f the general
body was, • civil right; and be therefore agreed
with the Noble end Limited Prelate, in thinking that
to deprive soy class of subjects of that privilege,
was a great and flagrant injury. Ti. safety of the
country could be schlecud as a sufficient °Nevi sit
against the possession of this right. Bet to lb. Ca-
tholics, power bad been already fivers. its the
right of election, in the Army aid Navy, sad
of proctoring for themselves lucrative eitylopoeut
et the Bar. Was it good policy at the present
time to embody them in a separate class ?
The motion of his Noble Friend proposed nothing
Insl or decisire,sud hese+ nething which could pre-
vent their Lordships from going into the Committee
to iuvestigete the subject. The Noble Earl who set
on the opposite bench, bad always opposed lb. me..
Lion on firmer occasions, but his opposition was
founded on principle end tempered with moderation
and liberality. The Noble Earl had not imputed any
immoral or improper rie•• to the Catholic Pentiooers,
and if be recollected aright the urges/mots of the
Noble East on the preceding discussions, his own-
sition to the motion was not feended Da dos grossed
of the Catholics believing in transebstantiation, or in
the itivocetien, or in the sacrifice of the mass. Tan
eyelets of reclusion was not defesded for these
remits : the Greek end !Leiden Chemises be-
lieved the same; end were the adopters of their
doctrines to be minded also, in case any of the
inhabitants of this country should embrace them ?
it the system of esclesion was not necesaary I{lllllSt
them, why was the declaration to be continued ?
Before he would conclude, he bogged permission to
visite an observation relative to what be had heard
from a Noble Lord, who bed quoted same opinion
of D-. Milner's, es opposed to granting say relief
to the Catholic Boiy. 11. protested against any
'tech opinion tieing considered as that of the general
Body. It was, he suggested, in 1813 &measure °di-
es, to the Catholic Body, which was afterwatde
proved to be that of a vindictive spirit. Dr. Milner,
he had authority for saying it, was so longer the
amt of the Irish Bishops. This result was evident
frees the events in 1810 end in 1813. Of the es.
premise, of disappointed ambition or of irritation
of one individual, no stoplight to he made against the
demands of • whole class of subjects. lie conjured
their Lordships to look around en the equals and
rival. of Greet Britain, en the United States of
America, and on Fiance The United States, with
an lammed navy, with multiplied ',sources, and
with redoubled strength,was threatening the Colonies
of
Greet Britain. The preset, therefore, weeds, time
to conciliate the subjects of this kingdom. The sites-
deo of Irs anal ought also to be taken into coesiderao
lion le possessioui of • new Constitei ion, the energy of
which resembles that of this country, France was
now needy relieved from debt, and her strength, her
vigour were improved. The feelings of France mid
of America towards England wets those of jealousy
end revenge, which they would hereafter feel delight
in indulging. Ought not, therefore, great end
to be made for the lidation of the interests of
the subjects of Great Britain, oppressed as she was
with a load of lases, with a circulating medium re-
sembling that which passed in France whew on the
eve, as it sae said, of bankritptry ? These were
the dangers which now surrounded Great Britain,
and it could be called little less than madness, not at
least to labour to snit. all her children together...-.
' The morbid state of Ireland had been cussed by the
long continued system of misgovernment practised in
that county', and it, therefore, became the dell se
the Legislature to end, to tooth those of the
if that country, who bed been either neg-
lected or orpressed, that united in heart end mind
the sehjerts of this kingdom might be prepared to
meet danger when it should he assailed.

The 1.611 D Cll A NO:LI-Olt ezpleined.
_ _

The Earl of LIVERPOOL, oheened, that it wet
evident that the Catholics now claimed free edmissiew
into all altos of State sod trust, in the same degree
that the Protestants enjoyed these privileges. If any
subordinate plat of coricessien, if any aperete aid
specific remedy for any particular gravest*, bad
been breeght forward, it might become the Ilene to
entertain the diecessies ; bet whew it was asked to
concede every 'blue, to grant all privileges of what-
soever name, to the Catholics, be did treat that the
(louse would net suffer itself to be &leded by any
argameota, to eater upon ay 'ovary w encenstia.
banal. The Catholics, it was true, wore eatleded
from Parliament mid from cereals elms of trust and
; yet it nest be recollected, that when is
1813 a Bill for their relief had been brought isle the
other flossy, and an Honourable Paton, now a
Member of their Lordships' llease (Lord
ester,,
had proposed a clause making them g fly eligible
terrific', with some few exceptions, the lkli was imme-
diately withdrawn; and by whom? Be the triads
of the Catholics themselves.—llleer I—Was1—Was he
not therefore justified in saying, that their greet
object most be something different than the mere
attainment of those few siteations from which they
were at present 'attested ? Ile agreed entirely with
those who had argued that the gosernmesit was lab-
stantially Protestant, that it was so it/unmated hi
the Act of Settlement, anti that many statutes. both
before sod after the Revolution, were espressly
founded on the principle of tarledtne rapists. The
governing principle at the Revolution was s c'4l-
- of Church and Stale. The reunify had at
that time the vaperiento of two great C 011,01,14015;
one in which the Puritans hail evertorned et nets
the Monarchy end the Church ; It a other at a salsa
quest period, where the Moan rch hail stalest abs
versed the (Auto., and completely harried hie Out
Throne, by means of the doctrines and practice 4
Popery. Our anteaters had wirtly adopted tM
principle. that the cnnee‘ion of a Chuiol "i'd 8
31er^rthy eat absolutely e;•,e,:i.! to 1N

esisteaut of civil liberty and of cosstitetiottal govern.
went : tied is deciding the question that the King I
must be Proteataat, they bed also decided that the
Government most be Protestant likewise. Upon
„ow priecipso, he would ask, could it he argued,
that it was oeceesary to maintain the Protestant
character of the Crewe, god yet that it was • matter
of iodiffereare whet achieves the Crown shoeld have ?
The Noble Lord bail asked at what point our con.
cessions shoeW stop? Certainly this would be a fair
vendee, if the bogeys, Ives one merely of degree
or espedieney ; bat as be understood it, it was a gen-
ii" of plitseiple, whether the Government. as by
law established, retold be otherwise than Protestant ?
was said, indeed, that the times were changed, and
slat the seclusive principle, however egotist' formerly,
was no lessor requisite: but who was so profeeodly
mod in the signs of the times es to predict positive.
ly what wield or would not happen after a long
hpr of yeen He would ask, whether 30 or even
% years befersbaed, any one coold have been bold
gearsegh, or sagacious 0001101 to forked the over-
Oros et • long established Monarchy by the Peri.
uss; .401.er at site Indention of Charles 11. any
ow weld have foresees the overthrow of James in
cefeefrote of his adherence to Popery ? It was
from ers-onstlon of these two events that our so.
cedes had laid dews these principles by which the
cower, bad enjoyed more civil liberty and hap-
piness limo any other country on obi face of the
glebe ; still if these principles were in them-
Pelves eojest he should be the last person to desire
their preservation, bet he mast confess that he saw
oothigg unjust in them. If one party should give
a qualified, another as anqualified allegiance to the
Sovereign, there was no injustice in preferring the se-
cond to the first. All who dissented from the Go.
"greatest le Church and Siete' placed themselves in
a state of @scission, with this distinction, that with
the mass of Dissenters, there was merely • negation
of the supreme power of the Crown in ecclesiastical
matters; with Catholics there was the ackno•ledit•
meet of a supremacy above that of the Monarch. If,
therefore the Catholic came and asked for *gaol
rights, diem was no unfairness in saying to him,
• Y.. do sot cow on equal coeditings with the
Protestant subjects of the realm." The Quakers,
• body equally exemplary for their moral demeanour
and loyal sentiments, the Non-jurors of a preceding
reign, • class of conscientious and pions persons,
were and bad been escieded, because they did mot
mud do set give that unqsalified assent to that system
of Church and State which the law bad pronounced
to be essential to air liberties. it was not tree, as
bad been Inserted, that the Church of Hootetzercised
no
power incept in matters pinny ecclesiastical. It
was tree that it did not pretend to temporal jorisdic-
tioo as sech, but, at theses@ time, the objects ender
Its contrite, did, is fart, concern 'latest all that was
temporal as well as spiritual in hymen affairs ; he
alluded particularly to wordage*, divorces, wills, and
deeds of that eaten. The principle of aericalar con.
fiestas, coupled with absobstioe, was clone • supre-
macy greater than guy list ever belonged to any class
of Sometime. If the 'scission of the Catholics re-
lated to matters of property, he would be the first to
disavow and abolish it ; bet it was • question of po-
litical power, sad net of property • gad be felt that
be stood upon BO immoveable foundation and a prim-
eiple of the *solidest distinction, when be said, that
If the Protestant throw, the Protestant law, and Pre-
ttified constitstion, were to be upheld, it was tight'.
peosable that their guardians should be perinea who
acknowledged le all its force the troth and impan-
el's:et of the Protestant union of Church and State.—
The Noble Earl then argued, that the concession
would sot operate to allay animosities in Ireland,
and that the great sass of the People would sot be
erected by it in the smallest degree.
The Marquis of Lansdown spoke in f
the motion; the Earl of Westmorland against it ;
she Earl of Conserves for, and the Duke of Wel
tingles against It.
After a few words from Lord DA!LNLEY, it.
favour .115, the Hoes* disided

&oleos Preent . 70—Prnsips 94—ilfg
Downortests—Prerrat . 17—Proales 50-117

Majorily Against the swim' II
Adjestsed at ilelf•past One •Clock.

MOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. Job•uooe presented •n •ccoont of eh.
N•!N of lb• Cosforke ReWormers of ihe tlifferen,
Irish counties.

Clithere's Divorce Bill was read a iliir.l time, and
peered..

Our the motion of Mr. C. HARVEY. 11.. P^or
Regulation Bill woo road a fir4t Imo. and ordered to
M rood a roeond tiro,. on 11., hof Miry.
Sir W. LEMON prferntewi a Petition from the
Perish of 54. Clement's, Cornwall, against the Poor
Settleseut Bi I !

ne Scotch Diislll4llllo late Bill seat throsak the
Coanittev.—lteporr
The Poisonoat Dregs Bill was read a Grit tin:e.
and ordered le be read a second time on Munday
seat.

r. P. MOORE moved the second reeding of the
Load°. Gas-light Bill.
Sr R. FERGUSSON moved an amendment, that
Obi Bill bo reed a second time that day sir nst.otbs.
Mr. COLCLOUGII supported the Bin, on the
(mud that h would promote compeaitioo.
After some ebeenation• en the part of Sir J.
Yorko,Aldersaa Wood, and Mr. Bennett, the Moose
divided—

For the Aistsdaset.l34 1 Agaleti it. 31 1 Majority, 103.
STATE OF THE NATION.
Sir J. SEBILIGHT swished tint the Right lion.
Gentlemen (Mr. Tierney) would postpone his motion
on the State of the Nation, that stood for to-morrow,
till after the discussion of the Report of Use ii.uk
Committee.

&h. TIERNEY said, it bad never bees his inten-
tions to forestal the discession on that &Tort. To.
elk hies to pomp. as his motion, was, is fact, to ask
him totbaodoe it altogether. Ho was booed in duty
to brie, forward his motion tomorrow. At the same
time be hoped that the Member for Surrey would
postpone Ins motion that steed for 10.11101,11111.

Mr. SUMNER said, that his •at:•,n weisid sat
stistepy awe than an hoar mad a half of the time of
the He.*. A Noble Lord opposite had also a mo-
tion that stood for to-sorrow.