The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-12-30 00:00:00

STATEMENT OF THE CLERK OF COMMITTEES

Mr. Okill's statement set forth that, with an experience
of twenty-eight years, he had adopted in his office that sys-
tem which he 'conceived best adapted to insure a correct
management of the landed estate of the corporation, and to
afford all requisite facilities to the various lessees. He res-
pectfully stated that he could not suggest any improvement
in the present plan. The statement showed that the necessi-
ty of assistance had been acknowledged by the vote of £420
for the services of his son. The increase of business conse-
quent on the Municipal Act, led to the appointment of a
permanent assistant in the office, and he submitted that the
extent of business since then transacted had justified the ap-
pointment. Mr. Okill thought it is duty to state that he had
every reason to be satisfied with the zeal and assiduity of
Mr. Abbott since his appointment. He (Mr. Okill) had never
presumed to have the custody of the deeds, muniments, &c.,
of the corporation, but the management of the Repository
under the late and present Town-clerk had remained with
him since his appointment, and it had ever been his study
to render that management complete and useful. After
showing on what his experience is founded, Mr. Okill con-
cludes by saying that the resolutions of former councils have
led him to suppose he has been successful in his endeavours,
and he trusts the council may never experience any change
in his faithful and diligent exertions in their service
Mr. LLOYD said the course would now be for him to make
his remarks upon the report of the Committee, and the state-
ments of the officers ; but it would be more convenient for
the council to have those remarks in writing than to make
them in the shape of a speech. He would now ask the coun-
cil to allow those remarks to be read ; after which the whole
subject might either be postponed, or he would at once pro-
ceed to move the resolutions which the committee had agreed
to.
After some desultory discussion, it was agreed that the
document should be read with the view of giving the council
further information. It set forth the general concurrence
between the views of the Town-clerk and those of the com-
mittee, and then proceeded to remark on the statements in
order.

The decision of the committee as regards the Recorder was,
that copies of depositions may be furnished to the Recorder
in special cases, and that refreshments at the Borough Ses-
sions be done away with.

Under the head " Increase in Salaries," the Town-clerk
omitted the amounts for extra work simply referring to fixed
salaries.

As to the fees, the committee say that the Treasurer could
not have been aware that the particulars were delivered to
him " or certain replies (quoted) would not have been made
by him."

Touching the custody of charters, &c., the committee say,
" After the opinions given by the Town-clerk, the council
cannot longer withhold the custody of the deeds which the
provisions of the Municipal Act assigns solely to him."
The committee have requested the Town-clerk to take
counsel's opinion as to the compatability of his office with
that of Clerk of the Peace.

The committee recommended that power should be obtained,
the first opportunity, to pay the clerk of the Peace a salary
in lieu of fees.
The only difference between the scheme of establishment
proposed by the Town-clerk and the Deputy and that of the
committee, consists in the former maintaining the relation of
Town-clerk and Deputy, and the proposed increase of the
salaries.

The committee, after stating their reasons for their former
proposal to separate the two offices, recommended the adop-
tion of the Town-clerk's and Deputy Town clerk's scheme,
with the following exceptions as to the increase of salaries :
The Deputy Town-clerk's salary to be £9OO instead of
£l,OOO, and two other clerks £lOO instead of £l3O, and £BO
instead of £9O.

The statement of the Clerk of Committees, the committee
observed, contains much which comes not within the inquiry.
The committee repeat that there was no clerk to the Clerk
of Committees previous to 1836, and the statement admits
that no formal appointment was ever made. The committee
fear that the law will view "custody" and management as
the same. The Town-clerk has a duplicate key to the repo-
sitory, but the Clerk of Committees locks the outer office
door, of which the Town-clerk has no duplicate key. What
follows on this subject expresses the resolve of the com-
mittee to comply with the act, and give the custody of the
muniments to thr Town-clerk.

With the proposed establishments for the Town-clerk and
Deputy Town•clerk, the committee consider there will not
be any necessity for a clerk to the Clerk of Committees.

The Clerk of Committees can have a separate office, and
attend such committees as he does at present, and give such
information as he is enabled to give respecting the estates of
the Corporation. The salary now paid to the Clerk of Com-
mittees is, in the opinion of the committee, too high for the
duties performed in the absence of all legal responsibility.
As an alteration is proposed in the giving the custody of the
muniments to the Town-clerk, the apportionment of the
duties and salaries are to be considered, and a recommenda-
tion made to the Council.

The remainder of the report from the Bth to the 14th sheet
inclusive, relates entirely to Mr. Abbott. The document
takes a review of the proceedings on the appointment of the
clerk to the Clerk of Committees. The first resolution on
the subject was the confirmation, on the 16th March, of a
report of the paid officers' committee of that day, which re-
commended the appointment of such clerk, he not being al-
lowed to do any business on his own account. This led to
the statement that Mr. Abbott had carried on business as a
law-stationer in the face of the resolution of the council,
passed in 1836. It was not till the receipt of Mr. Abbott's
letter, of the 12th of October last, that the committee were
made acquainted of the appointment of Mr. Abbott by the
Finance Committee of the 22nd April, 1836. The resolution
appointed Mr. Abbott at a salary of £l5O per annum ; his
hours of attendance to be from nine o'clock in the morning
till five o'clock in the afternoon, and later when the work of
the office required it, but to be allowed to carry on his busi-
ness as a law-stationer, the same not interfering with his
exclusive personal attendance during the prescribed hours.
" It does not appear," the document went on to state, " that
the resolution of the Finance Committee has been attended
to, if the words ' attendance from nine o'clock in the morn-
ing till five o'clock in the afternoon, and later whenever the
work of the office may require it, are to convey that Mr.
Abbott was not to be paid for extra work in the Clerk of
CommitteeS' Office." Here followed a number of items
paid to Mr. Abbott for extra work in Mr. Okill's office.
The document proceeded with some explanations on the
statement of Mr. Abbott's letter touching the subject of his
taking half the fee from the poll-clerks supplied by him,
giving an extract from Mr. Abbott's evidence before the
committee.

Mr. BIRKETT begged to ask the chairman of the Paid
Officers' Committee one question. In the first report of that
committee it was stated that if their recommendations were
adopted the public would have their business done much

more satisfactorily, and there would be a saving of £5OO per
annum. If the business'of the town was not sufficiently well
attended to, he (Mr. Birkett) would not object to an extra
£5OO per annum; but if the plan of the committee would
save that sum, they should not only be thanked, but have a
piece of plate. He had been told, however, that there would
be an additional charge of £l,OOO ; and on these grounds he
wanted more information.

Mr. AIKIN suggested that some plan of proceeding should
Je adopted before the subject was fully taken into conside-

Mr. 1-1 on.Nnv said he should think it his duty to move
that all these proceedings should be considered at a future
day. Sufficient time had not been given for the considera-
tion of a matter of such great importance.
Mr. Hoocsos thought it would be inexpedient to press
the whole matter at that moment; but it would be well if
questions were asked by way of eliciting information.
After much desultory and unimportant discussion upon
the mode of proceeding, it was agreed that Mr. Lloyd should
be allowed to read the resolutions. He did so, and the fol-
lowing is a copy of them :

1. Resolved,—That, copies of depositions be furnished by
the Clerk of the Peace to the Recorder in such special cases
as he may request.

2. Resolved,—That, all refreshments, now provided at the
charge of the Borough Fund for the Quarter Sessions and
Borough Court, be discontinued.
3. Resolved,—That, on taking into consideration the state-
ments of the Town-clerk and Deputy Town-clerk submitting
a scheme of establishment, upon the principle of Town-clerk
and Deputy Town-clerk, that this council do approve of
such scheme, subject to the following alterations in the
salaries thereby proposed.
_ _

Viz.:—That, the salary of the clerk, N 0.4, in the scheme,
be £lOO instead of £l3O.

That, the salary of the clerk, No. 6, be .EBO instead of £9O.
That, the salary of the Deputy Town-clerk and Prosecuting
Solicitor, be £9OO instead of £lOOO.
And, that, subject to such alterations, the Town-clerk and
Deputy Town-clerk and Prosecuting Solicitor, do severally
proceed with the requisite appointments in their respective
departments.

4. Resolved,—That, in all such appointments, it be a clear
understanding distinctly expressed, and by every clerk or
assistant agreed to, that he shall not directly, or indirectly,
carry on or assist in any private business, or employment,
whatever.

5. Resolved,—That, the provision of the Municipal Act
with reference to the charge and custody of the charters,
deeds, and muniments be carried out, and that the pro-
tections, advised by the Town-clerk, in his statement, ought
to be observed.

6. Resolved,—That, as recommended by the committee in
their report, the sum of £165 2s. 4d. be paid to Mr. Thomas
Tyson for his extra services stated in that report.
7. Resolved,—That, on the establishments of the Town-
clerk, and Deputy Town-clerk and Prosecuting Solicitor
being formed, the clerk to the clerk of committees will not
be any longer required, and the Town-clerk is directed to
make the arrangements for the change accordingly.
The MAYOR said, there could be no doubt that each of
these resolutions would involve a separate discussion.
Mr. EvANslsaid, that now the resolutions had been read,
he hoped time would be given for their consideration. There
were many new members who were but imperfectly acquaint-
ed with the subject, and he mentioned Mr. Blackburn as an
instance, and there were others who, not believing that
resolutions would be definitely put that day, were not in
attendance. He (Mr. Evans) had not had time to consider
the subject as he wished. They had received the state-
ments but a short time before, and he had made marginal
notes on his copy, but he wished to carefully collate and
compare the statements with the report, to which they con-
stantly referred.

Mr: LACE said, if the statements of the Town-clerk and the
Deputy Town-clerk had varied very materially from the
report of the Paid Officers' Committee, that would have
been a good reason for adjournment; but there was scarcely
any difference between the two. The report had been a long
time before the council, and they were competent to go
into it now.

The MAYOR intimated, that before Mr. Hornby could
move the amendment he had spoken to, Mr. Lloyd must
move his resolutions.

Mr. LLOYD said, he would, then, propose the first of the
resolutions. They were all founded upon the report of the
committee. He would also say, that it was most important
that the establishments of the Town-clerk, the Deputy
Town-clerk, and the Prosecuting Solicitor should be made
at once complete, according to the scheme. He now moved
the first resolution, " That copies of the depositions be
furnished, by the Clerk of the Peace, to the Recorder in such
special cases as he may request."
Mr. KILSHAW seconded the motion.

Mr. HORNBY said he had no objection to the resolution,
uor had he any to the scheme generally, but he was not pre-
pared to press it in all its integrity. He thought it incum-
bent on him, as a former member of the Finance Committee,
to state that that committee had long been aware of the ir-
regularity of the Town-clerk's department, arising from
ineffective assistance ; and the only reason that had caused
delay in the application of the remedy was the increased
expense that it would occasion. In the last year or two the
business in both offices had greatly increased. After offering
reasons to show that more consideration was necessary, Mr.
Hornby moved, as an amendment, that the resolutions and
written statement be printed and circulated amongst the
members of the council, and taken into consideration next
Wednesday week.

.
Mr. EARLE seconded the motion, urging that he had not
the smallest conception of the subject being intended to be
considered that day.

Mr. BIRKETT opposed the adjournment ; and asked
whether, if he voted for the first resolution, he was not
thereby pledged to vote for the others? (Cries of " no.")
Mr. HODGSON was in favour of delay.
The TOWN-CLERK stated that an adjournment might be
moved upon any of the resolutions. Such was the practice
of the House of Commons.

The council then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment.
Against it ..

Mr. SAMUEL HOLME re-entered the room just as his
name was called ; and the question having been explained to
him, he said he should vote for the adjournment, as he was
entirely unacquainted with the subject.
Mr. LLOYD having again read the resolution,
Mr. AIKIN was opposed to this proposition, because it
would be virtually withholding from the Recorder deposi-
tions which had been heretofore at his :ervice. The great
objects of the existing system was to secure the ends of jus-
tice ; and if it was proposed to withhold them on the score
of the small expense occasioned thereby, it would be false
economy. As an amendment he would move that the de-
positions be furnished as heretofore.
Mr. H. HOLMES seconded the amendment.
Sir T. BRANCKER inquired what was the cost ?
Mr. H. HOLMES said it was only about £6.

_ ....._ _ .
Mr. LLOYD said it amounted to about £5O a year, which,
although small, involved a principle. It was quite right that
the Recorder should see the depositions, but it should be the
originals and not a special copy. Why should the Recorder
have a privilege which the judges of the land had not?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE understood that the Recorder had
the original depositions sent to him. What was the reason
he had not?

The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK replied, that, by Act of
Parliament, the clerks to the magistrates were bound to fur-
nish prisoners with copies of the depositions against them,
if required. If the originals were furnished to the Recorder
it would be impracticable to furnish copies to prisoners.
Mr. LACE inquired whether the Recorder had not time to
look at the originals when he came to Liverpool ?
The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK.—Certainly, except perhaps
in some special cases. _

Mr. LLOYD remembered the time when the Recorder
used to come to Liverpool on the Saturday previous to the
Sessions, and go to Church on the Sunday ; but now he came
on the Monday morning, from Lancaster, and he had no
time to read over the depositions.

Mr. EVANS said, this was a question which did not affect
the Recorder only, but the public. A judge ought to be well
informed of every thing on which he was to pass his judg-
ment ; but it seemed that, if the Recorder was to have these
copies furnished to him, there must be more out-door work.
Mr. LLOYD.—No, no.

Mr. EVANS hoped that the professional gentlemen present
would look at the question as one affecting the well adminis-
tration of justice, and afford every necessary facility ; but
he had not as yet made up his mind.
Mr. LLOYD said gentlemen should be made aware of what
these depositions were for. The depositions were in the
hands of the Judge for the purpose of testing the accuracy of
witnesses, who might prevaricate materially from the evi-
dence they had given before the magistrate. There had been
individuals, however, who had tried prisoners on the deposi-
tions taken before the magistrates, instead of on the evidence
brought to the jury, and in one case, a Judge had, in sum-
ming up against a man, having used depositions, and not
taken a single note of his trial, included the testimony of a
witness who was dead! (Laughter.)
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE hoped the chairman of the Paid
Officers' Committee did not mean to say there had been any
such practice in Liverpool.

Mr. LLOYD said such things had been talked about. The
Recorder ought to come as formerly, and not put the cor-
poration to the expense of £5O a-year to send copies of the
depositions to him at Lancester.
Mr. AIKIN hoped the practice would not be deviated from.
Public justice required its continuance, as the Recorder was
aged, and required some attention to his comfort. He should
press his amendment.
Mr. LACE thought the Recorder was more likely to get
confused than otherwise by the copies being furnished to
him. If the Recorder was at that time of life when he could
not go on without them, it was time for him to resign. If
the judges of the land had not the depositions before the day
of trial, the Recorder should be put on the same footing.
Mr. AIKIN said, he should like to know whether it had
not been the practice from time immemorial for the Recorder
to have this assistance ?

Sir THOMAS BRANCKER said, it was not the practice
when he had anything to do with the Quarter Sessions. It
was the Recorder's duty to try the prisoners upon the evi-
dence before him.

The Town CLERK said the present practice had originated
in 1836.7 and not before. The total cost last year was
£4B 17s. Sd.

Mr. LACE said it was not to the amount, but to the prin-
ciple, that he objected.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE enquired whether the Secretary of
State could not compel them to send the depositions ?
The TOWN-CLERK said certainly not : they were not
compelled to send them at all. The Judges did sometimes
ask, but rather as a favour, to be furnished with copies, in
special cases. His statement had been made with reference
to making the case of Recorder conformable with that of the
superior Judges.
Mr. Anal,' said the feelings of the Council were so mani-
festly against him that he should withdraw the amendment.
The resolution was then adopted.
Mr. LLOYD now moved the second resolution to the
effect that all refreshments be discontinued.

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE : Except in such special cases as
they may be required (Laughter). _

• ... ,
Mr. kILSH;NV seconded the resolution.
Mr. BIRKETT—Does that include the Alderman's Court ?
The MAYOR.—No.
Mr. EARLE.—What Alderman's Court ?

The MAYOR.—On the first of November, do you mean?
Mr. BIRKETT.—Yes.

Mr. EARLE.—Really it must not go before the public that
any alderman ever had refreshments at the expense of the
corporation.
Mr. BIRKETT.—But it must if it is so.

Mr. EARLS.-1 beg to say that I have had refreshments
at my own expense, but not at the expense of the corpora-
tion.

Mr. HORNIIY.—No refreshments ever have been allowed
to the aldermen.

Mr. BIRKETT.—I beg to ask the chairman of the Finance
Committee whether we were not called upon for a bill of
£l6 lately for refreshments?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.--We were, but we did not pay
it. (Laughter.)
Mr. EVANS.—I have been seven years an alderman, and
I know nothing of such entertainments.
Mr. TURNER.—Whatever I have had, I have paid for out
of my own pocket.
The conversation then dropped, and the resolution was
carried.

Mr. LLOYD then moved, and Mr. KILSDAW seconded the
third resolution.

Mr. EVANS opposed it on the ground that the subject re-
quired the previous consideration of the Finance Committee,
and he proposed an amendment to that effect.
Mr. HoLaiE said, he should be sorry to be an advocate of
delay, but be thought sufficient deference had not been paid
to the younger members of the council. He would for one
thing object to the reduction of Mr. Shuttleworth's salary.

If the matter were pressed forward in this way be felt placed
in a very awkward position, and it would be impossible for
him to give an intelligent vote.
Mr. BLACKBURN said ditto to Mr. Holme. He was not
a member of the council when the subject was first brought
forward, and he had only recently seen the report. He had
not had time to form an opinion that would enable him to
give a vote.

Mr. THOMPSON said he had only got a copy of the report
o❑ the preceeding night, and he had not yet had time to
peruse it. _ _ . . .

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said, the new members ought to
have got the report before, and made themselves acquainted
with the subject.
Mr. EARLE thought, on the contrary, that the committee
ought to have shown the courtesy to the new members, of
sending them copies of the report.

Mr.-EARLS thought, after the statements of Messrs.
Holme, Blackburn, and Thompson, it would not be justice
to those gentlemen and others to proceed.
It was ultimately decided, that the subject should be taken
up at a special meeting of the council, which must according
to law, be called next Monday for the appointment of certain
annual officers.