The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-05-24 00:00:00

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or unadvisedly.- Ile submitted, therefore, that in or-
der to justify 11 chariot! of the law, the earm against it
should be irresistible. Now the r ison 111;:ed against
the present law was, that it war; inefficient.
Died the basis of the reason, as far as it applied t*
private forgery. He contended that the laws *gains(
the crime were as effectual as they possibly could be.'
It was stated also, that the severity of the punish-
ment created an unwillingness to prosecute. This he
admitted, but he denied the itiferene.e attempted ton.. e
drawn from it; and he contended, that hr
away the punishment of death, the number of offences
would becelie increased, as "tell ai that of .the prose-
cutions. The punishment eubstituted by the Bill for
that death was transportation. This was scarcely
considered a punishment ; 'indeed many 'prisoners bad
been known to bow to the judge on his passing sen-
tence of that punishment upon them. Forgeries were
generally committed by persons in embarrassed cir-
cumstances. Now what would be the reasoning.f
o
such a person, if this Bill were to pass ? He would
say, " If I accomplish the forgery, and escape, I can
gi) to a foreign country ; if I be detected, I can only
he transported." He (the Solicitor-General) was sa-'
ti.tiell that a change of the law would render offences
of this description more numerous. It however had
been said that imprisonment and hard labour might
be .:tibstituted for death. This specks of punishment
Could at present he applied only in certain cases; but
the expelience afforded by its practice by no means
recourageti the idea that it deterred from the commis-
of ci ime. In foreign countries, he admitted that
pritaishments were not so severe as they were in our
own ; but it should be recollected that in foreign
countries there were greater facilities for doecting
crime ; facilit;es which were afforded by the nature of
their institetimis. These institutions differed mate-
rially fruit; ours, and long might they continue differ-
4nt l Persons were there couipelled to accuse them-
i-elves, as they unfortunately were at the bar of that
House. 'I hese his observations applied merely to the
case of forgery, and lie should trot enter into the
questions raised by the other Bill of his Honourable
arid Learned Fliend (Sir J. Mackintosh), as he
thought the hlentlio7 of these snbjects had a tendency
to ronfound them. These bring his opinions on the
Lill immediately b-fore the House, he felt it his duty
to move, as an amendment, " That Alm House should
go into a Committee that :lay si% moriths."—(ll;e
Hots, and Leagued M
_ enilici sat doon amid very gene-

ral cheering.)
Mt. F. BUXTON spoke at considerable length in
favour of the origin ,l motion. He admitted that the
lion. and Learned Solicitor-Beileral had met the question
siitb fairness and eandoer, and it was with much pleasure
be (Mr. 11.) observed, that there was insurmountable no
difference of opinion between thew. The argument of
the Hou. and Learned tientleinan was principally that
no adequate substitute for the punishment of death had
been or could be proposed. He (Mr. Buxton) admitted
with the Hon. and Learned tientlenian, that transporta-
tion ryaa no punishment ; in fact, it was often consider-
ed as a privilege. But annual riturns were laid before
the House stating the success which had attended the
petti,linient of offerders by sending them to the hulks.
The prevention of crime was admitted to he the test by
winch a criminal law should be tried. Now, a century
had passed, in which nothing hail been so extraordinary)
us the increase of our criminal enactments. The ad-
s *mates of severity had been allowed every latitude of
Ir;islation ; and as we excelled all other nations in se-
Yeritv of punishment, we ought to be the mast free fron,
r time. But what was sons had'
In the year 1817 no
lie,s than 107,000 to
had passed through the pri
sun
of this country ; and another melancholy consider-
ation was, that there were from eight to 10,000 juvenile
delinquents at present in the metropolis. These sub-
sisted by petty pilfering, but as they approached towards
manhood their enormity would increase. Another
rqually important fact was, that crimes had increased
fatir-fold in the last ten years. So that while prevention
54as admitted to he the object of the law, it was clear
that crimes had increased under it. He would give a
oniparative statement from official returns of the com-
mitments in England and Frame. France had a popu-
lation of 29 millions, and a police which detected al-
most every thing. England had a population of eleven
millions, with a police which neglected almost every
thing, and yet a lea number of persons were annually
Committed in the former than in the latter country.—
(dear, bear, liear.)—The system had been tried long
rinoulth, aii.l the general increase of crime, under that
system bad been twenty-fold upon the calculation of
our century ; and the irresistible conclusion was that
something in the system was wrong. It had been said
hat mitigation of punishment had increased the num-
ber of off-noes ; and the effects of the late Bill for
removing the punishment of death for the offence of
privately stealing from the person hail been cited in
slim) irt of this doctrine. Undoubtedly, the number
of convictions for this offence had increased, but the
I.umber of other crimes had increased in an equal
degree. If, therefore, the lesser punishment sufficed,
the greater was, at best, a legal murder. He should
here bring two legal experiments under the notice of
the House. One was from lenity to rigor, and the
other from rigor to lenity. The former was the case
of an offence against the Excise, which having b
een
eriginally punished by fine only, was now mad a
felony. Mr. Carr, the Solicitor to the Excise, a most
respectable inan,liad been examined by the Committee,
and he distinctly stated, that in his opinion, that the
change of the law was a change for tl,e worse. He
stated that the crime had not abated, hot the prosecu-
tions bad decreased in number one half, and of the
persons prosecuted, only a third had been convicted.
The other legal experiment was this. In 1807, the
persons connected with the Linen Bleachiag Grounds
had complained by petition that the severity of the
law against depredations upon their property h
ed thad in-
at
creased the dumber of offences, and they pray
the punishment might be mitigated; it was accordingly
mitigated, and the offences bad decreased in number
from thirty-eight to thine in an equal number of years
preceding and subsequent to the mitigation Act.
As the Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite
(the Solicitor-General) had omitted the topic of lar-
ceny, he would follow him in that respect, and also
exclude that branch from his consideration. The next
subject to which, in the course of the question he
mast advert, was the crime of forgery. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman opposite said that it was not till
the reign of George the Second that this offence was
visited with the punishment of death. Ever since that
fatal comeardcement we had gone on consigning so
many victims to the gallows, as could not fail to re-
Lest MI out laws a character of brutality which they
hod serer assumed before, and that not because the
law answered the end of its adoption, but because it
did not. The eaperisest bad been tried both ways.

_ by ,
the two had been seen, and be would pt
by side, and call upon the House-to judge, challeor
ing whosoever might happen to bans him, without
restriction as to period or country, to produce any one
remarkable instasice of the rarity of crime consistent
with the severity of punishments. He should content
himself with borrorving the aid of one or two facts
from the history of England hearing on this point. In
the reign of Henry VIII. which. if remarkable for an
abundance of crime, no one well,' say was noted fur
the mildness of its laws, no less. than 720100 suffered
the punishment of death, principally for robberies,
which number was exclusive of religious culprits, and
made an average of six executions a day, Sundays in-
cluded, for every day in his reign. The Hon. Member
next adverted to the reign of Queen Elizabeth, to chew
that the usual severity of the preceding reign had
caused no diminution of crime. He also read an Ad-
dress of that Sovereign to her Parliament, reproving
them for the non-execution of the laws, which she
complained were not administered with sidficient ri-
gour, although she sent to the scaffold 5011 annually.
It was recorded of Alfred the 1 ;rem, that when he came
to the Throne be abolished almost all the penal laws,
and all they knew of the effect of that was, that the
historians of that time said, that at the conelnsion of
his reign a child might calk from one end nf the king-
dom to the other with a purse of gold about i•ir tierk,
without danger to the child or the purse. The elt•
aniples of similar results were abundant in the history
of the world. The liberal coils of criminal law which ex-
isted in most of the States of America was borrowed from
the State of Pensylvania, which set the first examples
of punishing none hut the crime of murder with death.
On that occasion all the great judicial charartets ex-
pressed their decided hostility to the proposed altera-
tion ; and it was remar!:able that in the course of the
experiment the whole of the Juries reversed their opi-
nions, and had the magnanimity to acknowledge that
the effect of the change had surpassed their utmost ex-
pectations. Another instance equally in favour of
his argument was on record in the neighbouring state
of New York, where a number of horse dealers peti-
tioned the Legislature, praying than to make horse
stealing punishable with death, who, sol'ic years after
the offence having been made capital, a second time pe-
titioned to have the penalty committed, as the only
means of protecting them under the enormous increase
of the crime. All he asked was, had the infliction of
this severe penalty answered the end it was intended
to produce? Experience proclaimed that it had nut.
In England crimes hail increas ,d, either as compared
with other countries io the same time, or as compared
with herself in f ruler times. But what were the
crimes that had chiefly increased ? %Vas it those which
were capital in this country in common with all others:
No—those of that devription had greatly decreased
it was that species of minor felony which was capital
in this country, hut in no other, and which was not
capitally punished in former times in England ! With-
in the last century, their number hail increased almost
in a quadruple ratio. It was remarkable, that in the
course of last year, 4410 persons were condemned to
death under the Statutes enacted in the last century,
'luring which period each year hail produced a new
capital crime. All of these were passed tab ail. wit) ;
and if they were to ;isle oho were the Solon" and the
Lycurgi of our Criminal Law, no one could tell them.
They were certain anonymous legislators, whom no-
body knew, but whose quality could only be guessed
by the grammar of tit-ir productions. Of the old coin-
'non law it had been said by Lord Coke, that they
never left the Common law of England, and slid it
with impunity. The principl..s for t hich he contend-
ed were in the true spirit of that common law, and mile
►criminal !awe were nut. It was, perhaps, more ne-
cessary in England than in any other county, that
popular opinion shonlil eii along with the law of the
land. The people were so interwoven with the law, in
the shape of jurors, prosecutors, and witnesses, that'
their apiirobation could scarcely he dispensed with;
the people of England had a strong feeling of justice,
and under the too writ substitution far popular appro.
nation, it was impossible to eet the people will-
ingly to prosecute, to give evi knee, or to assist in
the detection awl apprehension of culpvits; the rea-
son was, that it was at variaoce w;ili all fairness and
justice. Did they expect the just 111311 to assist in their
administration ? lie could not, so lime as he knew
that the $01111• pittlishitient was aw i-iletl for unequal of-
fences. Did they expect to have fly! ;.i.l of the mer-
ciful man ? The laws were too severe, and he would
not prosecute by them. The same scruples would re-
strain the religions man. So that it was clear the
laws of the land ought to he congenial with the feel-
ings of the p ople. They once were so in this coun-
try; but that had passed away, and daring the last
century they had made rapid strides apart, and now
there was a wide distance between. During that pe-
riod the people had made rapid strides towards all that
could tend to humanize mankind, and during the
same period the law had contracted a ferocity it had
never before possessed, and then it was expected that
a merciful people were to execute an unmerciful law.
The Hon. Member entered into a vindication of the re-
port of the Committee on the Criminal Laws, and
spewed, by the evidence given in that Committee, that
the execution of the law was shackled by its severity—
all the witnesses expressing their disapprobation of
capital pnnishments, for such small offences, and all
being possessed with the conviction, that the fero-
city of the law was the feebleness of the law. :dr.
Harmer, who had been admitted to the secrets of
two thousand criminals, was decidedly of opinion,
that the severity of the law defeats itself.—
But all that he had hitherto urged against the existi:
ing code of Criminal Laws was feeble, compared with
its tendency to make Jurymen guilty of perjury. He
would take but one crime—the crime of larceny in
dwelling-houses, 'which became capital if to a value of
above forty shillings, and five shillings in a shop.—
The Hon. Member then proceeded to read from a pa-
per reports of several trials at the Old Bliley for arti-
cles of considerable value stolen, and on which the
parties were found guilty of stealing to the value of
10d., 4s. 10d., or 395., being much less than the real
value of the articles. In one case of this nature the
Judge addressed the prisoner as follows :—`4 The of-
fence, prisoner, of which you have hem found guilty,
is, by the mercy of the Jury, of a less heinous nature
than you have committed. If they had gone to the
extent of the evidence, I should have to pass the 'ou-
tline of death upon you.; but as it is, you are to be

for a month." Tie Honourable
r cases in which prisoners who had
to the amount of fifty-pounds were
found' guilty ih one case of stealing to the value
of ten-pence, in another 4s. lOti, and another
395. If any Gentleman would get up sifter this and
say, that'there was no perjury in these cases, he must
solve one difficulty', which was, bow a 510. Bank of
England note conid he worth lOd._ in.; nue place, 4s.
10d, in another, and 395. in another, and yet in every
other part of the globe be worth 50/. He had ex,
tracted t2OO cases of that kind, and they Might be
wade 2,00). )t) that in the case of one crime in one
court only of the Empire, he found 120(1 instances,
which he pledger k faimself.inight be made 1.2000, and i
each of them in lying the perjury of twelve men.
When it was considered that no man in that House
held any thill but on the fidelity of a Juryman's
oath, it was dreadful to contemplate this picture with;
out apprehension. When they looked at the prisons
of the country—those manufactories fur crimes, it
most be obvious that the law grew what it punished—
created the wrongs it avenged. The Police uas
disgrace, and he hoped Isis Majesty's Guvernment
would see it in that light, and take proper steps to
reform it. What from hanging their faith entirely
upon the hangman, they forgot their first duty, which
was the prevention of crime in its outset. It was the
swarms of youthful delinquents that mostly exacted the
vigilance of the Police, and it was their inattention in
that respect that operated as a
.teniptation, and acted as
A snare to catch new victims. Where wasth.. halt of the
institutions of this country. whilst these glasimil.; evils
existed ? There was one passage in Lord Coke's works,
which, considering who hued Coke was, and consider
ing that he had never been very remarkable for lin-
ineuity, would, be thought have some weight• with
the Wiese Ilis words were.theae—" How lamentable
a sight is it to behold so many Ch.-istian Well and wo-
iiiPli tangled at that accursed tree, the gallows. if
a man could see collected togettier in one field all who
buffered in a year, the afflicting sight would make his
heart bleed to pity and compassion." 'the inference
width he drew from these reflections was this :—" The
consideration of a preventive police is worthy the at-
teetion of Parliament, and blessed he who may lay
the first stone of the work—more blessed lie who shall
continue it—auil most blessed of all he who shall com-
plete it to the beiselit of his couniry and the gloryLo of
(Ilear, Isear.)This hail been said by rd
Coke 200 years ago, but still lie was sorry to say that
the first stone of tl s s; rest work remained to be laid.
He then re-stated his objections t 6 the present system,
condennod the penal code as affording impunity to
crime, and holding out the most tr. mentions induce-
ments to perjury. It was supported by the names of
Mr. Wyndham and Dr. Paley, but it was opposed h:
a long list of practical men—all rape ience was
against it, and he might add, that it wses distinctly at
variance with the spirit of the Christian religion,
which teaches, that " we should not desire the death
of a sinner, but rather that he should repent of his
iniquities and live."—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT was little friendly to the she !ding of
blood, but lie thought the House ought not to buster
itself to be led away by theory or by the magnificent
disquisition which they had heard on the criminal
laws. Ile could not consent to give up capital pm
nisliments in cases of forgery. In the present state
of society, this could not be done with any regard to
the security of property. Ile showed that forgery
was not a crime that was committed like many lar-
cenies under the immediate pressure of want, and the
offence was often repeated many times by the same in-
dividuals. It was clearly shown in the inquimies
which had taken place, that transportation was i:4
many instances no longer regarded as a punishment,
yet this was propoeesi to be substituted for death in
cases of forgery. It was true that niany Bankers and
others (and among them an Hun. Member of that
House). had refused to prosecute for forgery ; but it
was also true, that me. chants and traders and others,
feeling the importance of bringing such offenders to
jus ice, hal formed themselves into assoeiations to pro-
secute. This was known. yet no member of those as-
sociations had been called before the Committee. lie
°old not say that the course taken in the time of
Queen Elisabeth, that of repressing crime by increased
sevemity of punishment ought now to he resorted to ; j
but this lie would s sy, that before they removed a
great security for property, like the punishment of
&alb in cases of furzery, they ought to have stronger
eeiaenee bef..re them than that on which the Repuit
of the Committee had been founded.
\I.. It. MLARTIN cuatentled that the Petitions on
the table proved the tense of the country to be against
the existing cosle of laws,. and spoke in favour uf time
e
motion. When he sat down, strangers were ordere
to withdraw, but before the gallery was cleared,
Mr. J. SMITH would not on this occasion, but for an
allusion made to him, have addressed the House after
the speech which had been made by an lion. Gentleman
(the Member fur Weymouth.) He had declined in one
case prosecuting an individual, because, if found guilty,
he knew that the punishment would be death. The of-
fender was hat 16 years of age. and his youth and other
circumstances made that impression on him, that it
would have inflicted real misery had he been compelled
to prosecute him to conviction. lie had known forge-
ries committed by the most ignorant, the must helpless,
and the most artfess of men. A few weeks ago the case
of a loan was bewitch' before the public for uttering
forged notes, lie had been inslnceil to interfere in his be-
half; and Lord Sidenouth, wills that humanity which
always distinguished his conduct, had inquired into the
circumstances of the case, and the life of the individual
was spared. The unfortunate nian, it appeared, was an
Irishman ; he had come over to this country to make
hay, and had been employed to circulate forged one
pound notes, receiving five shillings for each lie put
off. lie (Mr. J. Smith) had had some eonversation
with this person. It•was on the Saturday preceding the
Tuesday on which he was to have been executed that he
saw him, and he found the man so ignorant, that though
be conversed with him for some time, he could not coo.
vince him that there was any thing wrong in that fur
which he was sentenced to die. He bad expected, rom',
the great talents of the Hon. Gentleman who had( just
spoken, that be would have entered into the argument%
of his Hon. Friend. He could have wished to bear the
Hon. Gentleman apply himself to that part of his Hon.
Friend's argument, which assumed that the present sys-
tem encouraged perjury. He was confident that it had
that effect; and this was one evil resulting from the se-
verity of the law, which ought to be remedied. •
Dr. LUSHINOTON rose and argued that severity
of punishment bad not the effect of preventing-crime.
In the Court in which he use connected, in the count.

of tile."l4lt Ojettre, :ree will. had been f„mt, an 4
the same number of ilytwpsh,diu.oi,tii:ati:as.tli
5b..4
with
bsteaenneefeltohnaitotuhsel yo (life:nice
wet siana,
.pewiriodn;
t
t‘tvehisicjititaltioassutcriellitti,,lyhmceeinaitniciotuteledi a4b:entthPaheetwoeekainhritilbieldnedi:,4l,::.B.lsweigtitv.:;,,..itd.
fkoerd ,f Wr :I:
myairlrlliatgAtee away the punishment
aS
dweaasthas registers ? Why that was
all crime.
it:ll.llebcet had never
onenev ecraskenno‘fv
not name the parties) and in that our no prosecetiae
had been instituted. Severity of punishment, be ~t
satisfied, front all he hail seen, did not prevent their.
crease of crime, as some individuals were inclined e's
believe it did. F.igliteenyears ago there was •
4 cut 0
a boy passing by the Old •Bailey at the time a
man was being executed for fo gory. Up to thanks
the boy, who was a merchant's clerk, had borne
highest character for honesty ; but inquirthe Wale
crime the man had suffered, and being tole that
was for forgery, he went home and committed &meet,
that very day. so little did the punishment which ji•
lead witnessed have upon hint. For that forgery the iee•
was tried and convicted. Great interest was made f
hint, and his life was saved on its being stated by to
Ordinary of New:rate, that the culprit was unit t
take the Communion, and consequently unfit to suff,
The Honourable Member for Galway had seated
case in which he had decli ecd prosecuting a permit'.
pitally eho had forged on him, but wished ;inutile
course to' he taken with the party. 'lbis We
course usually taken in Ireland ; and 1% hat me
the feeling of the country wilt resp....t to the
when such had become the general practie 1., und,
sanction of the Judges? In the course of thee
week a case had occurred in whie h the peeson
upon had declared it to be his intentiou to prosece
the Offender for embezzling, and in that way
suit to any expense to bring him to justice, theme,.
wrsulil not take leis life away. Ile (Or. Lusitiogion
bad in one instance done the same. Ile had dills
prosecutine a person win had forged on him
isdisidualnhad known the .greatest vicissitudes
bad been a common pickpocket, but had at •
tained an honest, though humble situation, (I
was rather singttlar) in a Court of Justice.
tired other instances where offenders had
through reluctance to punish capitally. lie
proved of the punislinsent of death in cases of
as it was irremediable, and both Judges and
were liable to lee deceived. lust 1111:01 of this
cetera at Chester, at Stadord, and at Ilerhat
in the last three years, wheat. per. ele le ed I
for execution who teal been subsequently pro,
perfectly innocent. He then complained of
ceptacles which were open for thi yes in del
polis. which he regard, d as disgraceful to the
He had visited one of these, and aver pa•sliek
a very long passaee in total darkness, lee steered
room, in which were from twenty to thirty
Ile lead inquired if there was one among I
did not live by robbery? They all avowed
lived by dep.eela.ions on the public ; and he
of the succeeding four months three of them
their lives to the violated laws of their couutry.
house in at hich they met had since been shot
time nuisance was not removed, as another is .
neighbourhood had been opened for the letelfiea
the characters he had described. He coedited,
commending it to the House to endeavour
clime by securing an active police and well
jails, and by taking such other measures as
necessary. The subject demanded the most
attention of the House, and he hoped the
country would be so amended as to make
with the feelings of tier country.
Mr. NOLAN thought this was not the
cussing the state of the Police. That
better entered upon when the Report of
mittee came before the House. It was ag,
whether that punishment should be whittles\
crime of forget y, which for ages had been
the must appropriate. His Hon. and
hail mentioned an instance in which furl
punished. It was likely a person who reco%
party should not wish to punish. Another
had been stated of a person seeing
forgery comusitted, went house and forged
last must been a case of insanity. With
forger of Bank of England notes, lie was vial
from unquestionable authority, that much
Winn of forged notes was attrihntable to
Mewls by the Bank, in allowing offenders
miter offence. There was one charge of •
tore that he could not pass it over, namel
that Jurors were guilty of perjury, and
from the sin of perjury, they were to make
in the laws. On a charge of that trine'
himself able to form an opinion, and he
he hail never seen at the Old liailey at
part of the Jury which could warrant
The llon.and Learned Member said, he
the amendment of the Solicitor-General .
simple ground, that death was the proper
for forgery on the Bank of England,
forgeries.
Mr. C. W. WYNNE concurred in
front his Hon. and Learned Friend %rho
one, namely, that those who supported
tnent were bound to prove the necessity
beat the greatest necessity and the saf
could justify taking human life. The
benefit of Clergy, and wisely adopted
meta rather than capital
punialtment,
following that example had made the
gery on the Bank subject to poodiehmend
The second offence was to be potnisited
case of private forgeries, and, the forgeries
casioned in his mind some doubt. That
Member declared his intention to role
ought,
perhaps,
the Committee.
1,117, huenddeisrt u
p
all
hacind
Mr. COURTENAY, helm
the.'heeji r
a few
s
eating
ntis:ciaatttterei oonif wtoißfi
time
Idpi ret
bri
ir( iotceu of
minrah
eutld give.
been made '
tended that every effort had .
rat satisfaction, in their idevestigat
('lined
ddel tshtlePP;roceedt the
iinliirlsidef Ttlitiee elketrintrita:te
An objection bad been made to the

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4 1. I^4. 111111 STATEfiiMANi
to repress crime he tip utmost rigour, and to check sent to grideseell
its increase by s system of leniency. The testtlts of Nletobor cited utile
. -____ t... Ar...., (non and he would place themhi de %mien Bank notes