The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-05-10 00:00:00

ADJOURNED MEETING OF THE TOWN
COUNCIL.

The adjourned meeting of the town council, for the des-
patch of the business remaining over from Wednesday, was
he don Friday, at eleven o'clock. The MAYOR presided.

THE_TOWN7CLERK'S RIGHTS

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE begged pet Mission for a few mo-
ments, before the council proceeded to the regular business
of the day, to bring forward a matter of some importance.
He hoped he should not be deemed presumptuous in bringing
forward the subject he was about to introduce, although
he was surrounded by so many gentlemen of much more
ex-
perience in municipal matters than himself. However, he
would gladly give way to any member of the council who
might have deemed it proper to take up the subject. He al-
luded to what had fallen from the lips of the town-clerk at
their last meeting—(hear, hear)—and the statement which
had been made by that gentleman of his right to speak on all
occasions and on all subjects, no matter what they were, which
might happen to be brought before the council. He (the
town-clerk) distinctly stated to the town-council at that time
that he was part and parcel of the corporation, and that he
possessed those rights; but after having gone through the
municipal act, he (Mr. 8.-Moore) was at a loss to discover
where any such powers were given to him. He found, on
turning to the act, that a council was complete in itself with
a mayor, aldermen, and councillors, to be chosen in every
borough. This appeared from the 25th section. According
to the 58th section, it was provided that the power to elect
the town-clerk rested solely with the council. In the sche-
dule of the act no mention was made of the town-clerk, fur-
ther than that he was to be one of a body elected by the coun-
cil, and to continue in office during the pleasure of the council;
and there was nothing in the act concerning his authority or
power to speak, except that he was to be considered as the
legal adviser of the corporation. (Hear.) As the present
was a subject which vitally affected the privileges of every
member of the council, he (Mr. Bramley-Moore) had taken
the liberty of bringing it under their consideration. (Hear,
hear.) If the functions and responsibilities of the office
rested on the act of parliament, and not on the will of the
council, he thought they might fairly call upon the town-
clerk to show them wherein his authority existed, and
on what it rested ; and he further thought it due to them-
selves
that this question should be settled, so as to know
whether the town-clerk had the right on all matters to inflict
a speech on the council, and on every occasion so to do when
it might be deemed proper. The duties of councillors were
very different, according to the act, from those of the town-
clerk. The latter was not subject to the same responsibili-
ties or the same fines; consequently he did not see how the
town-clerk could be considered in the light in which he con-
sidered himself at the last meeting, unless the council should
have one member more than it at present consisted of,
and be vested with a vote. If a councillor refused, when
elected, to enter the council-chamber, he was subjected to a
fine of £5O ; and if he happened to become a bankrupt, be
was excluded ; but none of these contingencies applied to the
town-clerk. He did not see, therefore, that the town-clerk
stood in the council in any other light than as their legal ad-
viser, and that when they wanted his advice they might call
upon him for it; or if he saw any thing of an illegal nature,
it would be his duty to step forward and correct it. He (Mr.
Brumley-Moore) was quite willing to bear his testimony to
the excellent legal opinions given 'by the town-clerk during
the time that he had the honour of a seat in the council, and
to say that they had been given in an able and a lucid man-
ner: but he wished to draw a distinction between the giving
of an opinion and the right of the town-clerk to speak on all
occasions and on all subjects brought before the council ; and
he begged to ask the town-clerk whether he would express
the' same opinion now which be had expressed at the last
meeting, namely, that he was invested with the right of
speaking in that council upon all subjects and upon all occa-
sions ?

The TOWN-CLERK said he felt much obliged to the mem-
ber of council who had just brought this subject forward, for
the very clear, distinct, and he would say, candid way in which
he had mentioned it. His own opinion certainly had been
such as he stated at the last council, but he conceived that it
was one of those subjects which rested entirely with the coun-
cil. The member who had just spoken had very clearly, and,
as he thought, with latitude quite sufficient for everything he
could desire, defined his duties in a legal manner to be as fol-
lows :—namely, if called upon to advise the council, to do so.
and, if he perceived anything illegal going forward, to be at
liberty to give his legal advice thereupon. He certainly must
say, that his own opinion of his duties and responsibilities
went further than this ; but he was free to admit at once,
from the course the subject had taken, that, so far as opinion
went, he was wrong, and that to the opinion of the council he
now deferred as he muld do on every occasion. (Hear, hear.)
He clearly understood now, whatever his own opinion might
be, that it was a subject which rested entirely with the coun-
cil. He conceived that the council had then expressed an
opinion that his duties should be confined to the giving of
legal advice, as had been explained by Mr. Bramley-Moore.
To that opinion he would pay implicit obedience, and take it
as his rule on every occasion; and this he would do, not be-
cause he was submitting to that which he disliked, but as a
matter of cheerful compliance with the opinions expressed
by the council. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE ssid he had been. just asked by Mr.
Bolton whether he had informed any one that he would bring
this subject forward. He replied in the negative, and he now
repeated that reply. He had not mentioned it to any one,
neither had he entertained the question prior to the night be-
fore, when he looked over the act, and saw nothing in it bear-
ing on the subject of the town-clerk's right to speak in coun-
cil. It was then, and not until then, that he had made up
his mind to bring the matter forward. (Hear.)
Mr. BOLTON trusted that the answer which had just been
given by the town-clerk would be deemed perfectly satisfac-
tory. and that nothing further would be said on the subject.
.

Mr. GLADSTONE said he had no wish to obtrude himself
on the council in this matter ; but he must say that his sen-
timents differed from those which had already been expressed.
(Hear, hear.) He thought the manner in which the case had
been brought before the notice of the council by the honour-
able gentleman was clear and lucid, and that it was worthy
of his talent and standing in the town ; but he was not quite
so well satisfied with the explanation given by the town-
clerk. (Hear, hear.) He should have been much better
pleased if the town-clerk had said he had given the opinion
he had expressed in an excited moment, and that he regretted
it—(hear, hear)—that he now saw what the views and wishes
of the council were, and that be would not repeat what had
occurred at the last meeting. (Hear, hear.) This was the
reply he should have wished to have heard from the town-
clerk. (Hear.) He (Mr. Gladstone) was fully satisfied in
his own mind, as far as he could form an opinion, that what
had been said by the town-clerk, as to his right to address
that council, did not exist neither in law nor equity—(hear,
hear)—therefore he trusted the town-clerk would say that
he regretted what he had stated, and that he could only at-
tribute it to the excitement under which he addressed the
council, and that upon no future occasion should such cir-
cumstance again occur. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE really thought that the town-clerk's
expressions amounted very much to that. During the time
be (Mr. L.) had had a seat in that room, he could bear his
testimony to the fact that the town-clerk had never inflicted
long speeches on them. Whatever opinions the town-clerk
might have of his position in that council, he had told the
council that he bowed to that of the council, and that it was
in a moment of excitement, and with a view of defending his
office, he bad made the statement. That was his excuse ; and
he (Mr. Lawrence) understood the town-clerk to say this.
The town-clerk had never acted upon this opinion before,
and he never would do it again.
Mr. Alderman EvANs thought there was one passage in
the town-clerk's speech which ought to content the council.
He declared that it all depended on the council; and, there-
fore, after the opinion of the council had been once expressed,
he could not of course contend that he had any rights. This
had been admitted by himself, and ought to content the
council. They had heard of " tearing a passion to rags,"
and to make more of the subject would be actually doing the
same thing.

The TOWN-CLERK thought it was due from him, after
wnat had fallen from Mr. Robertson Gladstone, to say that
it was with great pain, indeed, that he found he entertained
an opinion contrary to the general opinion of the council.
He had certainly given an opinion, and he was put to justify
that opinion. He certainly had entertained the notion stated
by him, and was not singular in that opinion ; but if he had
had more time to have brought the subject forward, and it he
had not been labouring under severe indisposition at the time,
he would have done it, he dared say, more to the satisfaction
of every member. He thought he should perhaps secure
the good opinion of Mr. Gladstone, when he said that it was
with great concern he brought forward an opinion which had
not met with the general concurrence of the council. (Hear.)
Mr. BUSHELL said he never in his life had heard more
lucid legal expositions than the council had received and he
had listened to from the lips of the present town-clerk. He
thought the town-clerk had said quite sufficient to satisfy
any member that what had fallen from him on the occasion
in question was different from what had fallen from him be-
fore. There were circumstances, however, which, doubtless,
actuated and influenced him at the time. He was naturally
excited by a kind feeling towards a brother officer, and had
spoken the sentiments of his mind ; but with his explanation
he was quite sure every member would be perfectly satisfied.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE expressed a hope that the council at large
would be perfectly satisfied. (Hear, hear.)
The TOWN-CLERK said the high value he placed upon his
office might perhaps have induced him to form an erroneous
opinion of its duties and responsibilities. (Hear, hear.)
The conversation here dropped.
CHURCH EXFENDITURE COMMITTEE.

The proceedings of the Church-Expenditure Committee,
comprising a recommendation to authorise the committee to
take down a further portion of the tower of St. Michael's
Church, at the estimated additional expense of £4OO, and to
reduce the pew rents in St. Martin's Church, having been
read,
Mr. PARKER moved their confirmation.

Mr. EVANS asked whether the pews in St. Martin's Church
were occupied or the church filled, because otherwise he had
no idea of reducing the rents. If the pews filled at their
present rents, they ought not to be lowered, and any reduc-
tion of the rents should not be conditional.
Mr. PLATT said that the seat rents in St. George's Church
had been reduced two years ago, in consequence of the mi-
nister having complained of the highness of the rents and the
poverty of the neighbourhood. The rents in St. Luke's, and
afterwards in St. Michael's, were next reduced, owing to a
similar cause ; but the expected result of the reduction had
not been produced. They were obliged, however, either to
lower the rents or to have the churches empty, as the in-
habitants of the respective neighbourhoods had become al-
tered in circumstances, and the rents in other churches were
lower in amount. The revenue was nevertheless inadequate,
but he justified the reduction of the rents for the reasons
stated, notwithstanding.
Mr. EVANS said he could see no good reason why the pew
rents of the corporation churches should be under the market
rate. The real cause of the reduction, in his opinion, was
the radical vice of the established church—the manner in
which the clergy were appointed. Men not only not at-
tractive, but who %yere often quite repulsive, were appointed,
and he believed this to be the cause of the churches not being
half filled. As to lowering the rates of the pews below the
market price, be protested against it, because such a plan
never produced commensurate results.
Mr. PARKER. said the rents in St. Martin's Church at
present were £5 a year for six sittings down the centre aisle,
and that at this low rate there were not more than two-thirds
filled. The clergymen and churchwardens said that if they
were reduced to £4, the probability was that they would lit
at that price ; and upon this advice the committee had acted,
and now glade their recommendation to the council.
Mr. BRIGHT was of opinion that sufficient grounds
had not been shown for making the reduction. People
could not be induced to frequent a church the minister of
which was unpopular. If clergymen like the Rev. Mr.
Jones of St. Andrew's were appointed, the pew rents would
be £9 instead of £l. The principle of reducing the rents
was a bad one. If the ministers were not attractive, the
best course to pursue was to let them remain as long as they
were in existence, and then to make proper appointments,
provided the corporation had the power of presenting.
Mr. SANDS thought the market price was generally esta.
blished by the quality of the preacher in the church. (Hear,
and Itughter.) If they had good men in the church, they
woueltdtenhdaavnet, (Hear,gsoodrents hear.);anclif otherwise they would have
no
The conversation here dropped ; and the proceedings were
confirmed

BOROUGH COURT COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Borough Court and Court o
Requests Committee were read and confirmed.
HEALTH COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Health of the Town Committee
comprising a recommendation that Andrew Clarke and hi
wife be appointed keeper and matron of the Baths and Wash
house in Frederick-street, were read and confirmed.