The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN._

1111 N- - -
eligible to all offices, civil or military, those of Eng- his army of that persuasion • ,the rising
and it witeltOtetill ,8U its hazards ? No :it was all anomaly—it was he then said, it ought not to he left till • •
of all contradiction—all short-sightedness. It gave up , feelings of the nation awoke into a tempest of
and it gave it up for what was 1 faction. The measure was then deferred ; and since
land were sufferhig under the pressure of all their !Louis, the French King, hi violation of a 'treaty
former disabilities, with the eeceptioa of the trifling ! peace, acknowledged the title of the. Pretender to ! what might be good,
what it might be prudent to ! that time, it was not to be denied that'
sus •
mitigation effected by the Ast of 1791, which ad ' the Crown of England, that King William, and
it;
___shut, . . . , .
in.
to the se. shut what it was only safe to opal. The country - arms and It had been revived, totally newer.
saitted them to tne elective franchise. Iu Scotland, great Ministers of that time, had recourse it left open
to be ruined by the admission of the Catholics ;muted, as lie thought they were ; but still they were
however, they had neither the elective nor repro- `sire penal laws which were the; n enacted:,
nd Lord • into the civil and military service of the State. This revived g d this notadditional
; n was an reason to
tentative fraechise, though they were eligible to alt' bequeetly heeed the names of Lord Somers&
thisl
hi Scotland this . take the under their Lordslie s'
das the promoters of sys- ; was the point of safety,—and yet
entices; and notwithstanding this latter genii ticatione,l Hardwicke mentioned
'n tion and apply it to those of • •
they considered themselves persecuted for their Rifle tem. , These, • indeed,. are• great names; but they i vital point was quietly given up ; and i Scotland ; , . maxims
?wiso
a•
A
to be profaned, for the purpose of sup.. the Catholic saw all employments open to him.— ; wholesome policy of which it was capable ln this
gime Me Mai,. I these circumstances of distinetitin oftglit nut
in tee civil and political condition of the Roman Caw:it:lout
*no.daseitaieetifies and errersof theitesuccessors. t
i Hear, hear, hear I Was this system to be pre. : the /louse might expect the assiseoice of Nobler aids
d for perfection;were there those It' I• k 1 land' 1
!holies in the three countries, only to prove • —Ortecarll-eWe, who say that this system aught to !serve its or
from Lord ' found a beauty in its anomaly ? " I say," said the i subject entitled their opinion to the Si'g'.est resaro,
to their Lordships the tamale., absurd, and anon- 1 considered and amended, du not differ
I
strous anomaly of this system ; and to establish , Somers and Lord Ilardwicke, for the circumstances i .
Noble Marquis, 44 the prohibition of sitting in Par. ; _[Lord Wellesley here said a few word;. w . h ..
the neceSslty of a radial reformation of it.--- I ofelie times are not the same. When Lord Somers ; lament is a positive 'utterance. It is a grievance in I liece, in compliment to Lords Grey tine Grew i;i ,
Louis was in the pie- i its own nature.. It is a deg„.estion of a great class, : but they were lost in the cries of 11::a •, hear!
,f, ~,,t
We
have
;' evill
Ile was aware of the objection that was always reae i Wes cavoerable to this system,
supported the cause ,hi the eyes of their fellow-subjects. It has all the the Opposition. I," said hs, " nal sincere in
sly as to the danger of change: but this he shoirlit:, mita& of his power, and openly
tneet b askin how we-came to have continued safe' of the Pretelsde
eto the English Throne. In addl.. temper of a positive penalty. The prohibition to the opinion, that no time shcuel 1):2 lost in tio, ; it
y g
from, such danger alt the e time since 1793 I ?—ln Scot. , lion to Oils, we must remember, that the accession of • hold high civil or military offices is a penalty an- ep by Parliament ; that it sloeild not be setlesed el
land, op to this moment, the Homan Catholics werel William was critical, and, in some respects, not po. ' need only to the highest misdemeanours of pub!ic fttat about at the merry of every man s'. h.. in m lee
admissible to se offieet, eelei • that, he believed, of ; pular. Ido not mean toimposition .say, that the - his opportunity to distort and sxlesera:e the zri
just
s • r-. 1
Nigh Cominissioner of the Kirke without the exist.-, of these disabilities was even then;. but al- ' secution but by tire and faggot, and the torture of ances of the people. Rescue it from the hi „t
once of fear; or the occureenve of danger. lie' lowing that they were then just and necessary, it the flesh? And is this to be visited on a great mei- the enemy; Ido not speak of persons in I re'a t ' t
would ask, therefote, •thest who urged this appre. does not follow that they are so now. There I lite& of our countrymen, on imputations and rescue it from France. [Hear, hear !] IA : , : ,
bensioa of dnager as an targeinent isgahast the consi- : was thee a Popish Pretender to the Crown ; the charges denied by every authority of their Church ? tuition of the public mind only provoke U. to ; ;!... a
derntion of time question', to intone their Lordships IPope was in the vigour of Ina power; amid these ; Has not all this complication of grievance and pe- up, and that as speedily as we can. If k weve
by inlet means that danger bad been avoided in Mit. things, together with some circuinstauces even in our : nalty produced discontent ? I will not be suspected ticable, I would urge it upon your immed;At:. ~,, .•.
land; 11,.w had it impeimied thatno alarms had existed 1 domestic coueciis, excited a general conviction of the ' ofevishing to inflame the popular mind : but has it &ration. MI I not urge it upon you before ? tad
in that country ; tor ha hail never heard that any ideal necessity of providing additional guards andsecerities , not produced discontent ? 'I should be most deeply I trot, on the eSt It of April, entr at. yon to go into al,
of warm had been suggested there,• or conceived for the te!igion and liberties of the country; but the' surprised if it had not. But if it had not, it would immediate Committee? But ldo not now raa upon
!mere ls--Weat danger, he must desire to be Wormed, !circumstances are now changed, and the timende- ; become us, my Lords—it mould be our boutidep duty, you for what would be impracticeble; sad, as there
had either the Presbraerian or the Episcopalian : mend a different policy. In endeavouring, then, to 'as hereditary Counsellors of the Crown, to look to ; could he no hope of going through the subject this S, s.
Church incurred in Scotland, by the cotieetteous to alter the system, I say that Ido not, iu any degree, the probable rise of discontent, and meet and heal it.. sloe, let us determine to make it our earliest conii.
the Catholics? Thu answer must be, none. What 1 dep::rt from the example of Lord Somers.; ['fear, Does not all this supply ground for arguing? Is there : demtion for the approaching one. Next, us to this
danger then, need be apprehended from the saute po. ! hear!] 1 say the same of Lord Ilardwiciame. Wuet . nothing in measures which lix a vast irritated pope- i time,—are we to leave the question in its present
!icy here, ni in Ireland?—lie was aware that. the I Were the circumstances of the times in. itlikh he lation in the heart of the empire? But look to . state, for the interval that may come between the
Roman Catholics averts few iia number in Scotland. : Hied? The Pretender to the Crown had atenally in- i their operation on the general safety of our civil ; prorogation of the Rouse and its meeting again ?._.
But when they 'were admitted to their qualification waded the British dominions; and among the splendid : rights. Look to their operation on the interests i Are we to leave it to the mercy of every man who
in 1793, &tawny period since, had they availed thein. , passages of the life of that great luminary of his pro-' of the Church. In each, and all, they went i turns his eve upon it ! Are we to leave it to the
selves of the concession, to make an attack upon the; fessions the manner in which he managed the trials 1 directly to arm the spirit of a great body of the practices of the eitelly ?:"—[ilere there was some
national'establishments ? li:,z great object was to im-lof the Peers concerned in that rebellion was not the people against those i:mstitutions from which they !confusion from the crowd below the Bar, and time
press upon their Lordships, in this past of his state- least distinguished: Are we now under the appre. felt themselves decidedly excluded. But did those 1 Officer was called. Afters short pause, Lord Wei.
ment, the monstrous ationialy of the system, by call- I bension of any such danger?—ls there any Pretender laws, which were supposed so essential to the i lesley proceeded]—" If the time, if the mods of the
• lag their attention to the manner in which it affected :to the Throne?--Is there any dread of the principles Constitution, answer a singlet object for which I Resolution are unsatisfactory to your Lordships, are
England and Scotland respectively. Let any man lof a Popish Pretender?—Ace the circumstances of they had been devised ? Their first object was, to II to conclude that the object of my Resolution is
consider this seriously, and say, whether there was . that, and the present time, in any print similar to I bring the population 'within the pale of the : so! That object is to secure a final arrangement,
not saleiesit ground for enquiry into the reason of ' each other ?—No : they are all comlietely distinct i Church. Has this succeeded ;or roust not the i satisfactory to all parties—so guarded as to remove
the difference into the operation of the system, ;and • a:A different. But, my Lords, I go still farther; I body in question be adverse upon principle ? Is there' discontents, without endangering the rights of any clots
its practical effects in the two countries ; and also ' and I say, that the authority of Lord Somers and I a discoverable tendency to the end ? Is not the re.lof his Majesty's subjects. The importance, the pro-
whether it was hot the duty of their Lordships to I Lord Hardwicke, instead of being again I against us, is di- suit all evil; is it not the fruit of the system, upon I balite effect, the dangers of delay, all concur to press
examine into the mode and principles of its institu.; redly for us. We have the proof, that these great I pure human principles, to raise a strong hostility I this great question upon me, and compel me to
tion, for thepurpose of bringing it, if possible, into i men did not think the guards and securities then pro- against the Church—to lay open the public mind to I call viten you for some pledge of this speedy cousi-
n' more perfsct and complete state ? . The existence' Tided applicable to times and circumstances like the the enemy ; and to raise and foster a spirit, which, !deration. Then I, with others, whose assistance I
of such restraints as were imposed by this system, I present. The guards and s'curities then provided if not met by speedy remedy, or softened by the I will be happy to claim—and after whom, or with
be would contend, was, in any country, contrary to ! did not consist entirely of disabilities imposed on the promise of speedy consideration, must go on, in a , whom, I am ready to take my share in the discussion
the principles of natural justice. It was, he must , Catholics. They consisted, in 1 great degree, of progressive ratio, to those excesses which it would !of this question—will be proud and happy to come
heist epos it, an injury to any clams of subjects, to !certain additions made to the laws of High Treason. dentated all the wisdom and temper of your Lord- ! forward with those measures, which, by providing for
doiposo upon them any incapacity which would Many treasons were created, referring solely to the ships to meet with success ? But has this anomaly of ; a final arrangement, seem to us most calculated to
derive them of the benefits of the Constitutieu. Pretender; and it is not considered as an innovation, law, which deals out one measure to Ireland, and an- !ensure the happiness and honour of the country.
Upon the face of it spelt a law would be a gross , I suppose, that these are gone. It was provided by other to Scotland—has it produced quiet in Ireland, ! Those measures must not be suffered to linger with.
injustice, unless it could be defended npou the I the Zth of Anne, that the law with respect to time and in Scotland dis Content? No. We have iu those : out a pledge. If they are, let Parliament look to
ground of "!"solute necessity—and then that neces. ;corruption of blood should expire on the death of the two countries a great public principle reduced to 1 the consequence on the feelings of the country—Le
City ought to he clearly proved before their Lord. ! Pretender. By the 17th of George 11. this was ex- practice; arid it tells us, that where there is con- I them, above all, look to its impression on Ireland—
Ships should conseht to continue the system. But tended to the death of the sons of the Pretender. Is it straint, there is discontent; and where the con- ! let them look to the consequence of telling any great
fie would go farther, and contend, That it was not i not clear, then, that these guards and securities were straint is taken away, there, is quiet." Lord Wel- I body of men, that they shall have no place among
Only contrary to the principles of national justice, calculated for the circumstances of the times merely, lesley then adverted to the effects of a change of sys- ' us; that we have laid up their disabilities in the very
but contriver to the principles of the Christian reli.l when it was expressly provided, that they should, tem in Ireland. Authorities had been quoted to I temple of the Constitution, and made their restraints
lion, to nitrite ally civil *disabilities on account of in a great measure, cease when the circumstances prove that Catholic Emancipation was an inferior , the palladium of our liberties. I trust in God, that
religions Opinions; and these disqualifications wore, that erne rise to them no longer existed ?—This is a i object with the people. But ail this was contradicted iwe are now about to hind ourselves to that final 4r.
be considered, imposed for relinieus opinions. It was' distinct recognition, that the provisions were in. mmpon the common principles of human affairs.— rangement which will amend all—secure all—recon-
not :lone contrary to the Christian religion however, I tended by the framers to be merely temporary, and Where a discontent was raised against a peculiar' cite all."—The Marquis Wellesley then read his
bet emphatically prima facie contrary to the princi-ito cease with the occasion. It is evident, then, that grievance,—where It was the select of universal ! Resolution :—' That the House do pledge itself to
pies of the present form of worship—the reformed, the authority of these great men, Lords Somers and complaint,—where it was calculated to paint and to ' take into consideration, early in the next iession,
religion, as by law established, at least to the princi- I Hardwicke, is in favour of those who think that this injure, whether complained of die not, its removal ' ' a final arrangement relative to the Catholic Claims;
plea upon which it was at first introduced. What-' code of disabling laws ought to be revised and cor- must be important. But then it was said, the dis. : ' sszuring the interests of emery class affected by
over might have since passed to. favour a differenfeou. ' rected. But the Pope was the instrument of Boca- contents of Ireland arose from many causes, of I' them, amid calculated to produce a general conch-
elusion, the reformed religion, on its first ettablish. parte; and we were to dread his influence on our po. which this was but one. Let it be so. But what , 4 liatiou."
meat, was adverse to every species of intolerance.lpnlation, through the Pope. What' was the history? was the reasoning that would refuse to take away I The Motion being put from the Woolsack,
Ildnless it could be shown tnat the profession .of Bonaparte wished to bring all. Italy under his iron , one burthen, because others might remain behind ? ; Lord LONGFORD rose, and strenuously op-
particular religious opinious would be dangerous crown, and the Pope's dominions stood in the way. ! [Hear, hear!] 44 There may," said lie, ii be ' posed the motion of time Noble Marquis. The claims
to the security of the State, he would still con- , Bonaparte seized his person, as a preface to the others; but this, I am convinced, is the great one. , set forth by the Catholics, he thought it highly dan.
tend, that it was prima facie to impose any pres. ! seiture of his rich domains. That Pope, who was to I say it upon my best consideration. I state it as a ! serous to concede, while Bonaparte held his power
wore upon any particular class for entertaining I shake the allegiance of Ireland, was now a prisoner , legitimate grievance; and lam convinced that it is ' and influence over the head of that religious body.
them. But lie would also contend, that it was{ of France; and ens there to be found a man who' one which tenth to inflame every other grievance.— Concession, as far as reason and sound policy would
in just upon its own principles. To form an opinion i would still say, that the authority of the Pope was i [Hear, "'earl] This is the most painful and ins- "go, he was willing to yield, but there were bounds
13P011 this part of the case, they should take a view ' thus capable of producing an evil influence oti the I tine of all, as it touches the pride and feeling of a and limits to be observed ; and the precept" thus far
of the state of things here and abroad at the time I minds of the Catholics ? I, (said Marquis Wel- I people full of sensibility. How mach must it press ' shalt thou go and no further " ought not to be for-
the., system originated, and at the present moment. 1 lesley) am convinced, that no act of the Pope, in upon the spirit of such men, to find themselves de- ' gotten. It was quite unreasonable to require larger
,•_c. Ido net me lit here to enter tufo detail, but I his preened situation, would be acknowledged by the ; graded in the eyes of the country. It is impossible . concessions than had already been granted, without
I ask your Lordships what was 'he origin of this sirs. i Church. I think that hie present situation goes di- I that this must not be felt. It is not to be believed : adequate security 'against consequences. lie could
tem ? It arose front the jealousies entertained, sad ', redly to extingitish his authority in the church of that this must not touch them in all ',voiles where Olen i nut consider the question as merely religious: Ile
juely ente.tained, at the time of the Refornlation, of ; every country of *trope. But has his authority can he touched. I am firmly convinced, that the ; thought it was much inure of a political character,
the intentions of the Catholics, and the pewee of the . been etercishd ? lii the* been an attempt to exer. removal of this will produce. the tranquil removal . and security he deemed indispensable. The chug()
l'ope.• From these cause's it originated ; and from T the it? Aud has there been uo temptation to the of all the others; and that without this the re-' of bigotry, which had been advanced by the Noli!e
sure, and other circumstance r peculiar to the times, 1 attempt ? He is in the hands of France ; and has moval of all the others will not be felt as a boon.— Marquis against those who were adverse to the [ne-
tt crew, and reached its prtseat state. In the timed there been uo temptation to exercise it in Spain, in What is the authority on which this argument is nitude of the Catholic claims, he thought misapplied,
of James I. the Popish plot, and the power of the ! Portugal, and above all, in the Spanish colonies ? If . brought forward ? It is that of those unfortunate ! and Concluded with repeating, that unless perfect se-
Roman Pontiff, excited alarms in the minds of the! he had the influence still, who could doubt that it 3 persons who, for having inflamed the rebellion in : curity were offered, lie must oppose the Catholic de-
Protestants, and urged them to circumscribe the ', would be called Utah by Bonaparte ? But he knew it 1 Ireland, were rendered amenable to the laws of their ; mends.
power of the Catholics. The events which occurred I tote inseles,--he anew that the idea of using the spi-lcountry. Wnen they were brought up to be ex- ! The LORD CIIANCELLOR, considering the
in he reign of Charles I. and ended iu the overthrow ritual power of a captive man would be utterly vague,, stained before the Committees of Lords and Corn-' subject to be of deep and vital importance, had
of the monarch, led to a similar policy. At the titne.iend he thOrefore did not cdsll it forth.. But it might I,tectlis, this was no doubt their opinion ; and if it was i thought it his duty very early to offer his humble
of the ltestoraticin, the greatesteealousy was ititele !be said, Bonaparte had only seized the tempora-i to be relied on, Catholic Emancipation was no object I sentiments upon ft; and there was no wish nearer
tamed of all those who dissented from the' Establish- I titles, leaving the spiritual power free. No ; why 1 with the people. But who could rely upon the ad- ito his heart, than by any wise; politic, and consid-
ed Church ; and measures were taken against. the ; did he summon the Bishops of Paris ? By that Act ; vice of such men, under such circumstances ?-- ' eft measures, to conciliate every description of his
• Digsenters, in which the Catholici were involved.— Ihe went directly to abolish the spititual power in the i Their object had been to inflame the come. ' Majesty's subjects, and to unite them at that awful
NV :et the noliey of the Government of Charles 11. I Pope, and vest it in himself. I cannot think that I try ; and I cannot doubt that it was still their , and momentous crisis in the common cause of the
his anal htnent to the Catholics, and his subserviency:the slightest danger is to be feared while he .remains a ! object ; that their opinion was shaped to their ob- ' empire. •To the opinions and to the enlarged mind
to France, began to be developed, the -Protestants ! captive. But the doctrines are turned epon. The °ject ' • and that, in seeing their advice adopted, they of the Noble Marquis he was prompt to pay all de.
e became aturallv
. alarmed for their Establishedldectrines hottile to our Constitution are upheld, I looked forward to seeing the country inflamed and ference, and if that Noble Marquis could but con-
• Church, as well as for the liberties of the country ; I even though the Pope may have fallen. I say that made hostile for ever. Ties, I believe firmly ; and since him he was wrong, lie would at once and
especially When tee great power of France at that . those doctrines have also fallen I :—they have been every thing they said, before and since that time, cheerfully vote with him. Most earnestly and cor.
time was takeninte account, and the known deter-'abjured, 4s far as relates to 1
tempera's, and, iii some i has confirmed me in that belief. Then comes the dially did he wish for such conviction. But he
intention of the Ft•encli Court to support the Catho- i instances,to - • '
as spirituals, by the great Catholic be- 'great question of the safety of the Church. I am' could entertain but little hope of acqeiescing with the
lie eause. • Bet the penal lawi did not flbw merely 1 dies, in the most solemn manner. By some it was I convinced, that the Church is in no danger, but from : Noble Marquis while he was made ' liable to he
from these considerations. The public mind was'answered,
that the doctrines were never held, by al!, i those disabilities. Can it be doubted from which the branded with the charge of bigotry. if he was a
kept in estate of perpetual agitatioe andb •• I
alarm, ) that they were not held now, lam ashamed to repeat ' greater danger is to arise--from the admission of a : bigot, he was so in conformity with all the princi.
eceonnte of Vets and mitispiracies, which, however , what has b 1 ' been so often impressed upon yea." The ; few, by their qualifications, into the service of the • pies which had pervaded and animated the Consti-
I foolish they nevi appear, then excited the most serious ; Noble Marquis-
then proceeded to examine the ob.: eiate• or the absolute exclusion of a great body,' I tenon since the Revolution; arid he was pent-
npprehmitiOns. Udder these circumstances, the I jection, that though those doctrines were renounced I bound and condensed together by that exclusion , liarly surprised to hear those principles made light
lagent selisd of danger led to additional disabilities,l by the Universitiesand
the Pope, they were still vp.linto a principled hostility against the Establish-; of by the descendants of some Noble persons who
Itud the severest penalties. •At a later period of oa
rlid, as not being renounced by the same authority I merit I"—[llear, krar!]—llis Lordship then spoke ; had in their illustrious day been most conspicuous
I
itiitory,:enti the rdge of James 11. the same octet- whi h • c promulgated them. They were authorised of the necessity of an early consideration. It in maintaining them. Ile would humbly ask the
1
Mond principles proanceit anextension of the Code. originally by a General Council ; bet that Council I had always appeared to him that what was to be I Noble Marquis what was the substance of what he
inamel followed up the policy of his brother, with I was not /
existing to revoke them. They were dim- I done, must not *e delayed, if it was to be dune ! had that eight proposed ? Was it not concession rather
*tore 'Old, and less concealment. ,The alarm rose; rowedrevokedand , disobeyed by all existing au- : well and wisely. The consideration of the question ; than consideration? Was it not all concession and
see the highest pitch ; and hence arose the ne- therit ' *
iessity of providing agitinst a Popish
.succession y. But in the present state of the Popedom a' had been always deferreds and apparently without :no consideration ?He had been called an enemy to
General Council could not be held, and thus that' ttlf •
. s 'meta reason. lie (Lord W.) had been decided I the Catholics: the charge was false, he was no
lo the throne, which the poWer hod policy of ,renunciation was im "Itl
the French Govermnent at that *fie ' tendered like this posst e; and was it fora tea_' in ids with to give it the earliest discussion of which ! enema to any description of his Majesty's subjects,
, son that a system of haws so hostile to th - ;end indeed, considering. the situation which, by.le 's
peculiady dangereui toy the religion and tilor. 'spirit of all taw.,'t ' th' -2 • -
ties of the cbuistry. When William ascebded the -spirit Of the Conatito ' 6 spirit of religion, to the: slots, at which it bad come connected even with Majesty's favour, he had so long enjoyed, he should
'Throne, we kno* &it he was by inn nyeonsidered es lit it Wee talon, Wakta be suffenedeo ax. other matter, before the. House,it had pressed for be the most criminal of men if he could properly be
e
there any thing to excellent in iteframe i a speedy consideration ; sad again in April,•when called an enemy to any part of the community.—
too revolltuble tit getletal toTeretiOn•-woo liiicsureble
..'."411 pistrett" In its symmetry,—so Booed in its ob.! ' the
subject came forward again, he had stated, The Noble Marquis had given a conspicuous exam-
Otte OidetWil 14licititP,W.4-aftvAlfotilliteri fit ISlV"stiile•
- Saki ItsfrOflit deli whit. to OiigskiLit let- tiai, the mattech. o ht tto Ji elommintt •pie of the utility of c ideation, in the proof how
.14 AO ~ e. ear, es inWU r

lip

THE. S'A'C,;

I. •

. . , ~ . • ..
... . -
1111 • , . . .. . ....., ~
few months might-alter-the bearingsand propriety resolution passed elsewhere; end much, indeed; lid 'kat! first general question which went to the ame- which no Catholic could take, were passed not in
of 8 measure. Opinions bad been falsely imputed ho hope, that the decision of this night would tette !halation of Ireland. Ile thought that the'situation deliberate wisdom, but at A moment of ferment end.
1
to him, as if he had acquiesced in certain doctrines no cause for disunion with those who passed that of the lowei classes of the community in that part of confusion, such as bail never before been known.-1-4
maintained in that House on a former occasion by a resolution.. Whit then was the present state of the the United Kingdom, had long and Joudly called for Those who passed those lows, were persond who he.
N,,hie and f,,Nirned Lord, merely because he did at question ? It was singly and nakedly this,— legislative relief ; and he hoped, that the present lieved implicitly in all the depositions of Titus Oates;
the time stand up and combat (hoc, doetfines. This whether the restrictions which degraded the Catho- question would be' followed by the proposal of other ' and in those plots which were uow universally cor.
uncia fair. When the Noble Marquis, arthe be. i lic below;,his Protestant fellow-snbject should now Measures fei remedying the grievances under which ceired to he fabrications. Among the tests which
heelanint of .the Session, on the ill of is- be done away ? [Loud cries of Bear!] Whether the poor of Ireland now labour. With this view, as : were at that time preposed, there .vas one, which
T,,..,v, had entered on the present subject, he ob. ' Parliament should now, by one great act of legisia. *ell as that of conciliation, he felt happy in support-' was called the Bishop's Test, by which those who
sosol, th it if the Legislature were to give way, tire wisdom, and national generosity, unite all classes ' lug the motion of the Noble Marquis. took it were bound, 46 not to alter' any existing law
1,,,i to treat with •Enulisi Catholics, or with.► Irish of iiis Majesty's subjects lirdefence of, the common The Archbishop of CANTERBURY thought,l either in Church or State." Against this test, Lord
Cithelirs, the Legislature would then renounce rights of their common country against the common • that all thoie who were of opinion that the claims might, under '
:Shaftesbury, and other Noble Lords (who had not
hi function. On that occasion the Noble Mar- 1 enemy.—Elfear, hear !]---NV --Would this, and he put it !s?
nom by TrjOfit loin' favour ofetilhetoPres"eonutldmobrisotnex piTesfrtahramti op; -
1- hesitated to take the other tests), strongly protested.
vi„ cited nitk him. And if circumstances had 'to the Noble lord on the woolsack, be pulling down ' deed, that it would be generally conceived that those aho should i One Noble Lord, at that time, stated " that he was
teil on the great and enlarged mind of the' the barriers of the State ? Would it not, on the con. I rte against it, were for shutting the door againot I not for allowing a Popish man, a Popish woman, a
p , p1.`131 lion whatever sec
the subjecl.—( //earl -If the ebjaeclialeilducea: i
or a Popish cat, te he 'seer the throne."
V!ble Marquis, as in so short a time to produce the ! Crary, be the rearing up of impregnable bulwarks 1 atioa. and of securingtlie Established Religion from danger,could I Popish dog,
et.ilitte which was then apparent, it surely became i for its Protection ?It was said that the Catholics had ibe effected by any measures td be proposed, it would he au oh- 1---[A laqh.]-llnwever extravagant the elpressiou
pi.. douse to pause before they agreed to the present i already got much. They did get much ; and it '
iceconistrathetiouhig.hcht pri
re wce4eamnd•ritilietilrdegeoini I tie: truv ett tshuer fulled
ti nt- I
appeared at present, it was in those days extremely
Apnio.,. With respect to thepublication referred : should not be forgotten, too, that all they obtained ! re; but those difficulties ought ante in his opinion, to prevent , fine--.[4 tough]—acid was quoted as something very
But in his , jog ull consideration of the. question. lie thought that the ' sublime. Were- the barriers so sacred, which this
to by 11r.. Noble Duke (Norfolk), he should only ; was in the reign of his present Majesty.
e would do well to bear in mind, that whether the pre-snot
that it was one of the most scandalous, un- ' opinion, the concessions hitherto made wereargu- 1 wisdom of our ancestors in those times set up, that
mottua was. rejected or not, stall luestioo must unavmdabf
Observe.

warrantattle, and indecent papers that lie had ever
;IA vita ; certainly a more criminal paper was never
With respect to the measure its..ll, pro.
1;a3,.1 ivy en. Noble Marquis, what vas that measure
--vos it concession? To concession, to bona
,fide
cooc.tssion, he was friendly, provided it was not .
P%kit daeger. But the Noble Marquis called on .
t., show, the danger apprehended. What !to show
theflavi ef,tvort a riving the Protestant Establishment!
[llse!] ale had read it recorded, that a Protestant
itirt!om required the establishment of a Protestant re-
vupisart That principle had been esta-
blished in Ririe:, and he would ask, upon what ground
or fouedation a new principle should then be erected
to overturn awl confouodit It was not the reli-
gious opinions, hitt the political views of the Catholic
gat he was inclioel to oppose, and with the opinions
which ne held, the Honoured and Leatned ancestor
of the Noble Lord near him (Earl Harilwicke), was
in complete accord. Thkt great oracle of Law, Judge
Blackstone, entertained the same sentiments and
doctrine, ::,td could not admit that an Ecclesiastical
subuii,sion to a foreign Power could be entertained
with safety to the Constitution. He rep'ated, that '
he was a friend to moderate and reasonable conces-
sion, hut the present measure was all concession, and '
no consideration, and, as he could perceive no sound
reason for departing front those securities by which
the Constitution bad been protected during GO years
which lie had lived under it ; he should, rather than
vote iu favour of ihe Noble Marquis's Motion, move
the previnus.question.
Lord lL was of opinion) that, had
Lords Somers and Hardwicke lived now, they would i
have been different in their sentiments from the Noble
and Learnel Lord. From what had fallen from
the Noble Lord, he seemed to think, that the door
should lave been shot, from the byginning, against
the Catholics, and that none of the Acts in their
favour should have been passed. But the present
discontents of Ireland had been owing to the relax-
ation of the penal code. [Hear, hear!] if history
was referred to, It would be seen, that in the case of
a numerous class of disaffected subjects, the only
alternative wast either to conciliate or to destroy.
No pledge ha been given to the Catholics at the
time of the Union, but hopes held out, that, in the
Imperial Parliament, their claims would meet with
a. more fair and impartial consideration than pro-
hahly could be done 'bx the local Legislature. He
could confidently state, that Lin' Cornwallis had
thought it esseiktially necessary to take into consi-
deration the laws against the Catholics, with a view
t.) a total repeal ; else, that we had sated" with
ttleFe.whom we ought to have destroyed. lie ho-
uour,Al' Mr. Pitt for his'intehtions respecting the Ca-
tholics, and for his resignation when these intentions
c ....fit not h. tilled." The Noble Lord (Eldon) had.
cr.; ...11 his Citkern, that certain Peers had depart-
ed , : Ihe•opiuions of their ancestors. . lie might
with propriety have contended, that because
land tid:..l4iche had been.cov. inected with that Go.
veruniec.! tent had made the Assiento Treaty, his de-
scendant, tieesefure, .should not vote for the aboli-
tion of the Alive trade. -AVNear, hear
• Lord CLANCANNY said, that in his opinion if
the speech of the Noble Lord (Wellesley) proved
any Ming, it proved too mach, for it went, as he
understood it, to prove that the repeal of the laws
affecting the Roman .Catholics should be uncondi-
tional. To a repeal of this kind he was not pre-
pared to tonna.
The Duly of SUSSEX

menta far extending them. They were additional
motives to conciliation. lie said, that whatever the
Roman Catholics got, was in the reign - of his
present Majesty? Yt,:, in the 11th find 12th of
his reign it was, that the situation of the Catho-
lics was first taken into consideration. Then it
was, that for the first time the Cathoice were
permitted, in their owe country, to be possessors of
fifty acres of bog-laud for a term of 61 years, toge-
ther with half an acre of arable land, provided that
half acre was not within a mile of a town ! This con-
cession was followed by that of 1778, which gave to
the Catholics the power of taking leases for 999
years; and by that of 1782, which put the Catholic
on the same footing with the Protestant, not in a po-
Mical light, but as to the purchase and disposal of
land. In 1793, the right of election was vested in
the Catholics; that right, of which they had been
deprived since the first or second year of George 11.
Did any of their Lordships expect to keep the Catho-
lics stationary in •he situation, to which, by progres-
sive enactmet:ts, hey hail thus been raised? In his
notion of this free Constitution, he uederst(!od, that
under it there was a nar Ira! connection between pro-
perty and power. The '_athotics were permitted to ac-
quire property; and vwer nwt foTlow it. Any at.
tempt to separate power from p.operty,or to keep th2m,
when in exietonce, from uniting, would, he was con-
vinced, not only disturb the tranquillity, but would
endanger the stability of the State. it would have been
hotter never to have granted any tliiag to the Catho-
lics, than thus to stop short, and put up for ertr a
barrier against their . Ile begged the House
not to discourage the arduous and honest efforts
which the Catholics were making for their freedom;
which a virtuous, and, he would say, an illustrious
portion of the people of this empire, were =kin
for the obtainment of a most praiseworpty and glo-
rious object. If the House acted so unwise a part,
the natural cousequenee would be, that those ardu-
ous efforts would beturned into another channel, and
might in their effect, be as destructive to the com-
mon-wealth, as inimical, undoubtedly, to the Ca-
tholics themselves. He was led to these remarks by
a paper which he held in his hand, in which it was
stated, and, fie believed, fairly stated, that not less
than 7000 places were by the operation of the exist-1
ing penal laws, shut up from the Catholics. When ,
he said that the navy and army, and bar, were al.
most totally out of their reach, this assertion would
not be considered groundless. The Noble Duke then I
concluded his speech, with deploring that any thing
like violence should have been mingled in the con-
duct of the Catholics. They had given expression to
violent sentiments, which lie must blame, and which
must injure instead of serving their good cause.
Lord HA/MOWRY had originally felt much
alarm at the discussion on the subject. But the opinions of
great men bad induced him to reconsider his opinions, and the
result had been to strengthen his doubts as to the propriety of
suffering things to remain in the anomalous state in which they
had been placed at the Ullillit. In former discussions of this
subject obstacles had occurred, that weighed with a majority
iq hal I louses of Parliament, to reject the measures proposed,-
and the present Session was the only ono in which he saw any
room for a practical application. At the present time, hitw-
ever, the Catholics had resorted to their usual mode of enforcing
their Petitions, and were acting in violation of the law. Such
conduct was much more likely to frustrate than to secure the
objet they had in view; though it should also be recollected
that the Resolutions had been eniuc to under circumstances of
considerable disappointment. The Motion of the Noble Mar-
quis did not go to propose any specific measure, and inquiry
must necessarily take place. to ti+ present state of the public
mind, it was impossible that the question could remain at rest,
wall the summary discussion it had hitherto received. If, after
a full discussion, their Minis should be refused, the Catholics
might behrolght to a c?aviction, that the refusal priii:ceded

, . the itr MI .aum.
be discussed again in the coarse of the next Session. It had been
said, that more was intended thaw was professed. If that were
the case, he would still wish to reserve bimself against those in-
tentions; hut, at present, he should support the motion.
'sold ELLENBOROUGH was at a loss to ac-
count for the new light which appeared to Piave broken in upon
Parliament on this question. A very new and extraordinary
illumination had lately burst open the minds of some Noble
Lords in that House. The Noble Marquis (Wellesley),
had nrst seen this new light,—this day-star,—since the ;"oth of
last Jaanary.-.[//car!]—Until mat time, he must class himself
among the perseentors. Before he was converted, he might say.
as the Apostle of the Gentiles, who had been present at the
martyrdom of Stephen, that though he himself had not stoned him
with steeles, yet be was coast-meat to it, and took care of the
young men's clothes who stoned him. The Noble Lord, how.
ever, had not_ given the noise his reasons for this sudden col*
version. A Noble Lad tilarrowby), had also seen this new
light, and wls now in favour of the motion, As fur himself, he
was a titan of plain and simple hsthits, and loved cousistencv .;nd
truth above all things. As to h's Noble Friends near him (lairds
Grey and Grenville). they had been consistent throughont in
their opinions, and had ei ineed their sincerioy :ty the stierifice if
office and power. to those opinio's which they had .41 lolog and
SO ably maintained. 'Chat for o h:eh the% went wit of office, was
not an hundredth par: of what r e pre,ria motion aimed at, and
yet Le could not then agree a ith them in their opinions. lie then
differed with them not on the princi le, that nothing should be
done for conciliation a ith the Catholics, but that he was un-
willing to part with the stall'of power, until he knew weedier
it might no, be wanted for the defence of the Protestnin re-
hear, hear As to considering the laws
whic i pre-sed too severely on the Catholics, he believed that
au, Irmo of gobil understanding, would he able in a day, or iu
slew hours, to point out what immediately required rene:.l.
fieneser could, however, bring hint-elf to look upon thei No-
man Catholics in the sante light as the Protestant Dissenters,. as
they owned a foreign allegiance. Ile allowed, that this Wipe-
tion might be something weakened by the present circuresaincei
of the Pope; but it must be recollected, al4o, that it was Bo- ,
naparte w no had him in fetter.. Under such circumstances. he
still saw great danger from ths foreign allegiance, and there-
fore he should oppose the present motion.
Lord HOLLAND could not avoid expressing the
great gratification he felt, at finding that the question
had made such considerable progress, sine it had last
been agitated in that House. He could not be srak-
fied without expressing his unqualified tuterence to
those principles upon which he had before supported
it. He thought the motion had been much misappre.
hended by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, who
had made one of the most extraordinary speeches
he had ever heard, concluding it with a motion as
extraordinary. He expected that the two Noble Lords
(the Lord Chancellor and Lord Ellenborough) would
have thrown some new lights on the subject, and
have endeavoured to sheer how the Constitution, or
the Protestant religion, Would be endangered by
agreeing to the motion. On the contrary, those
Noble and Learned Lords chose only to deal in per-
sonafities upon the motives and conduct of other
Noble Lords. The Noble and Learned Lord on the •
Woolsack had made assertions about the barriers of
the Constitution, without enabling the Houseito
judge what he meant by those barriers. With respect
to the consistency of other Noble Lords, he had
nothing to say, as he was convinced that they were
sufficiently able to defend their own consistency;
but he must say that the Noble Marquis had very
distinctly stated' his reasons for now thinking
that the enquiry ought to be gone into as soon as
possible; although at a former period he did not
think that the proper time forenquiry. The Noble
and Learned Lord on the Woolsack appeared to
take great credit to himself, for keeping silence
when the legality of the proceedings in Ireland on
the Convention Act were under discussion. From this
silence it might be inferred, that he thought those pro-
ceedings illegal, but conceived it improper for him,
in his high situation, and with his great authority, to
pronounce an opinion on a case which might after-
ards come judicially before the House. Now, when
the consistency of other Noble Lords was spoken of,
he should ask, what had been the consistency of that

Jp.
they must not now be touched or examined ? Was
the wisdom displayed by our ancestors at this parti-
cular period of our hiiterv, really entitled to so
much admiration ? Bishop Warbuiton was, perhaps;
the very first writer who contended, that the reli.
gion of the State, whatever it was, ought to be fenced
with privileges, and guarded by the exclusion of all
other religions. It was not now couteuded, that
the Catholics held opinions contrary to the good of
the State, and, therefore, there was no just ground
for disqsalifyiug them. As to the danger of foreign.
influence, If that should excite alarm, we had al-
ready' grieed aH that was dangerous. The lower
classes, on whom this influence might most be et.
pected to let, are admitted as soldiers and sailors,
and may vote at elections for Members of Parlia-
ment. His Lordship then read the oaths taken at
present by the Irish Catholics; and maintained, that
they were sufficient pledges of their allegiance, and
a sufficient refutation of the doctrines imputed to
them. A. Noble and Learned Lord had mentioned
the names of Somers and Ilardwicke as authorities,
and asked, who would suppose themselves more li-
beral and enlightened than those great men ? The
same kind of argument had been used in support of
the Slave Trade,and the names of Locke, Ilardeirke,
and Somers, were brought against the supporters of
, the abolition. if fie were asked, did lie pretend to
compare himself with those enlightened and liberal
i men, he should say, he certainly did not. Ile
i should say, however, that he had the advan.
jtape of them, in the liberality of the age in which
he lived ; and although those great men might have
acquiesced in the opinions which were prevalent in
the clays they lived in, that was no reasou why men,
who lived in more enlightened. times, should be en-
tirely fettered by the authority of their great names.
This argument was most via lir, as it went against
all manner of improvement ; a;el went-to.set up bul-
warks and barriers, not for the Constitution and the
Church, but for ienorance,—for hizotey of every
kind,—and for every thin that was O.:grading to hue
• man nature. Was all learning and haeaati improve.
ments to stand still, because great men is former ages
had not advanced as far as the present age? This
argument was most unfair, but was always brought
up for want of a better, to defend ancient errors. It
had been often asserted, that deprivation of civil
rights was no injury ; and that it was only withhold.
jag political power.. He hoped, however, that the
I value of their civil rights were so generally known
and felt by every Englishman, that this argument
would also no longer be listened to ; and
;that it
would not be endured in argument, to maintain in
a free country, where men knew how to value
liberty, that civil rights were of no value to in-
dividuals ; and that they might be taken away,
or withheld from them, without doing them any
injury. [hear, hear!] W'hen Englishmen remem-
bered with pride the victories of a Marlborough,
they felt a greater interest than the mere commercial
benefits arising from his wars. They must feel that
; the privilege of gaining an immortal reputation was
highly valuable ;And they would be now exceedingly
mortified, if it could be proved, that the armies
which gained those victories, or the more ancient
victories of • Cressy and Agincourt, were not princi-
pally composed of Englishmen. la the present day,
what Irishman can avoid feeling a pride in the vic-
tories of a Wellington—what Englishman, or Scotch.
man can avoid feeling pride in reading of the ex-
plods of a General Bill, or a General Graham; and
with what regret must that man hang hii head,

shake 0. ---,n- 1 -,, Oat It ...r very' (coin no invidious orejodices or pirpossessions; but:unless se.
ample detail of his opinions on this subject which he i. Furies!: were ',l:rid, nonellinTS7C thatAefoteorld beepotgeorte: would
va.
had given on a former occasion, iewas not his in- h P_ .!'_
1 tio%, tne.Nvoeule Eord conelguded by giving bis assent to the
tendon to trouble their Loalships with a repetition Notion.
of that detail ; but after what hid fallen from the I The Duke of KENT said, that ho could not avoid
Noble lord on the Woolsack, he found it impossi- , espressin his most anxious and warmest wishes, that
Me not to male a short and conscientious effort to : when this subject should come into discussion, it might
counteract the tendency of those sentiments to which i not he considered so much a Catholic Question as a
tht. Noble Lord had given utterance. He hoped that i conciliatory question. {near, hear!] Having been
he would be believed by the country, and by their , educated in the principles of the Established Reli.
Lordships, when he said be felt as great ansiety for ; gion, he naturally felt a strong pr.,dilection in its &-
C, support of our establishments in Church and i your, and there was no consideration which attached
State, as the Noble Lord, though he differed from him more to it, than his firm belief, that there was no
him most widely in the mauner of that support. As rrligion more liberal and tolerant in its spirit.—
he had just said, his opinion on the present subject [Hear !] If he really thought that there was any
was long since made op; but he-should not do jus- i chance of the EstqMished Religion being subrerted,
lice to the Noble Marquis, if he did net .express his . by entering into a discussion of the Catholic Claims, ;
aztisfaction at the splendid exertion with which the ! ho would be the last matt to vote for the discussion. i
Noble Marquis bad this night confirmed his opinion ' It appeared to him, however, generally, that those"
""vith which he had strengthened his conviction.— i civil rights which were claimed by the Catholics, were
The question now came before their Lordships in rights which all the subjects living under the British
somewhat of a different shape and form from those . Constitution might naturally conceive themselves en-'
in which it even lately appeared. Its position, re- titled to. In granting those rights, he should cer- ,
Mire to external considerations, was much altered; minty wish, that care tlitnuld be taken to guard j
for the better. When it was last before the House, va- and protect the Established Religion. What guards ,
'?lons difliculties existed, and various opinions were , and securities might bc supposed necessary, would :
held, which were now overcome or abandoned. No Ibe more properly considered, if the House re.
man, with the events of the last six weeks in his; 'aired to examine the subject. While he was ready
eye, could say, that a very considerable change had ito express his warmest wishes for a anacilia-
riot taken place in the features of the Cistbolic (dues- 1 tory arrangement, he could not avoid expressing his
•lien. 'lt' was of course in the recollection of the - sincere regret at some of the Resolutions which had
'loose, that: within the last six weeks two attempts I been Jately passed in Ireland. The leading men of
bad been made at the formation of a new Adminis-
on,that class from which those resolutions proceeded,
trati
the basis of both which attempts was con-! had hitherto conducted themselves with the greatest
riliatiou of the Catholics. [Hear!] One of the temperi and moderation. lie would leave it to the
Noble Lords (his Noble Friend IVldira), who was '. liberality of the House, whether it was not propable,
commissioned to; make one of those attempts, was that those Resolutions proceeded from the sudden
,c' convinced of the necessity of conciliation, that ebullition and heat•of a few wild heads, and that they
I v might well conclude how favourable to the Catho- : were not the sober and deliberate expressions of
'tic,.
sere 11. e sentiments of the illustrious person who I those men who had always before coadocted them-
Sfle.his . tio,3le-Ftiend that. commission.- Another : wises with the utmost temper and moderation. He
ilteratien in the t .
position of the question was, the -1., ruaiqabis to the piveut.quegiou, skpoiviadffling
- • • - -

;aid, that after the ro

-$ -
Noble and Learned Lord? [llear, hear!]-lie was whose feeling is, ss 1 belong to a deikded class
too scrupulous to give an opinion about a question of I from whom no Marlboroughs or Wellingtons can
the legality, or illegality, of proceedings that were ever come. I remain, like Gideon's fleece, dry and
then in regular discussion before the House; but I barren, while fertilizing showers fall all around me,
now (Good,' scrupulous man !) he has no scruple in I and all tip rest of the creation rejoices in their in-
pulling a paper out of his pocket, and prououncing I Auenre.” What poignant regret must follow those
it% the most positive manner to be highly. criminal I reflections?. How must this sense of degradation
--'(?fear, hear!]—lle had no scruple this night, in I tend farther to degrade them ? The great Lord
giving the opinion and the authority of the Lord ! cbuthom, in speaking of the Americans at one time,
Chancellor, that the paper was highly criminal. He ; said he withed that they would resist, for if after
was at a loss to find any consistency in those scrn- I such provocation, they did not cut their own chains,
pies; and he thought that the Noble and Learned 1 they would become in future fit instruments for en-
: Lord had forgotten, that every Peer in that slaving others. The Catholics would want the feel.
House had a judicial, as well as legislative vote, ings which men of worth ought to have, if they did
equal with his Lordship. He had then returned not feel their degradation. If they really conceived
'to his old position,—the barriers of the Constitu- it no injury, not to allow any person of their reli.
tion, and the security of the Established Church.— f gion to rise to the honour that their countryman,
lie must say, however, for his part, that if he really Lord Wellington, had gained, then, indeed, must
I supposed the barriers of the Constitution, and the their spirit have been sunk too low to be able to
I Established Religion, were in danger of being sub- produce such men. - They felt, however, as they
'peed, he should not content himself with moving ought, the disabilities under which they laboured,
the previous question upon a motion which bed that and had persevered in calling the attention of Par.
Itendency. The Noble Lord, however, said, that liament to their claims. He, for his part, wishes.:
he was not an enemy to bona fide. concession, and 1 that those claims should be granted, without any re.,
bona fide conciliation. The Noble and Learned striction. Bat if it should appear to others, that
Lord, perhaps, thought, that by using these Latin t any thing might be done to remove objections on the
words, his meaning would not be so clearly I seen. I past of Protestants, he should have no objection to
He had not, however, chosen to follow the Noble i support their dams even with such restrictions.„
Afrt. all Marquis through the laws, as affecting Catholics lei events, the subject was worthy of the most
.Etighutd, Ireland, and Scotland. He would With to serious discussion, and be should, therefore lige for
ask the Noble and Learned Lord, what be thiseght . wass
e present metier).
of the reign of Queen Elizabeth ? Was not that is The LORD CHANCELLOR, in explanation,
.Protestant Government, both its England and Ire said, he was sot one of these who wished to doe the doom upon
land ? And yet out of about two Hundred turd fifty4ten -Psiseiliatioa, as be had been misrepresented to have said.
Members, which composed the Parlianseni. It' thig • Lort•HOLLAND made a brief explanation.
Lord• MULGRAVE disapproved of conceding
time, about 100 were Roman Catholics.-=-Lrieurni44
ihreielessof die Catholics by dares,. When the Gositunteitt
,
This circumstance however,did not prevent the Gel.,
sow see it It w make any concessions, they would Ind it wise
Iverument and the Established Religion from beinuiv• Ili Mete them to the fullest extent of their claims. fur it ap.
Protestant. There was then no laws for disqualifts that nothing len would conciliate We Catholics of Ire.
• • . It was the carbon refusal or hesitating pante on one
ing Catholics. The lain which now imposed eat S 4,..aad the iparessing demands no the other,•from inch dan,
to be taken at tbe 'table of each limed Parliament, ter wis to ansarehm. He was anxious to •• Nee