The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-11-07 00:00:00

T!-;S STATESMAN.

sepectine• polarre was not conclusive of her Mk
6%4'. guilt.• Barham Krants's evidenCe was en-
irely tlestro”.4 by that of Vaasali. There was a soilF,
irient reasoir‘for the Countess of (Hill not heing
called...in the patine', in which the Solicitor-General
had c0...a-examined Lady Charlotte Lindsay.
Lord I:otifrOßD said, that if he were called npon
to &vide Rpm+ thenidence, heshonl•l hate been under
tl:e painful netwasity ofsayincgniltv. But he should not
give his vote fur a measure so inexpedient as that before
tl.e root.e. He •trasted lie was as little to be in-1
thfiiiated by popular clamour as any one of their'
Lord,hips. They conld not pursue a more effectual!
cnu--e for allaying the irritation which was now!
r :Wing over the country, than the rejection of the
hil:. He was at a loss to conceive how any man could
vote for the Rill without the divorce.--(Hear, hear.)—,
And he was still more at a loss to conceive how they
1'6%641 support the Bill with it.--(A langli.)—He had
now discharged his duty by stating the grounds upon
which he pre his vette, • i
The Finite of ATHOL newt 'rose with a heavier'
heart titan apon this: Occasion. Itelad attended with

enerh attenil-ian to all the evidence, abd to all the argu-
tuen's that Lad been aildnced vilthinthese walls. lie
cot -Mere(' her Majesty's guilt to he proved upon her
own evidence. The House now stood in the situation
whether thee ,Mould go to the second reailing pit the
er not. Ile conceived that no person ever had a
friers. trial or more advantages in the Course of it than
deer Majesty; and upon the whole of the case be ronid
lay his hand upon his heart and as au honest wan give
Lis vote fer the second reading of the Bill.
Upon the Noble Lord's sitting down, eonsidt table
eamour took platce for the precedency, when it was ulti-
mately yielded to
The Duke Of SOMERSET, who spoke from the fir-
thee end of the Galley. which, from its immense dis-
tance from the Bar, orevented our hearing the ',revive len.
gnage of his speech, lint we can conch for the authen-
ticity of our ay.:mint of its substance. His Grace op.
posed the Bill in every view he took of it. Upon prin.
tildes he consideteil it anomalous to our constitutional
law; and with respect to the evidence in support of the
charge of Adaltery, he considered it very nnsatisfactore.
lie viewed tie testimony of discarded servants with
merit dictrust; and that distrnst was much increased
lien lie observed the means by which their evidence
sits Ithtaillell. It was stilt more hicreaseil, when lie
found that a Ibreign Government hail lent itself to the
get•inz up this kind of evideure.— (Hear, hear, Lear !)
Hit this was not all. Nut only had Foreign
fi„eeromenis acted for the pnrpose of getting up
e,.kienee against the Queen: but they h. d been en-
in endeavouring to keep hack evidence
which wits to he ad.luceil in her favour. Wee a ma-
ter:al witness for the erusecution hail been sent nit of
the country In viol:ain't of an express pledge to the
cur trary; and•tlie tonthiet of other pet-volts who were
not ender their Lord.hips cognizance, appeared to
have been highly dislionoarahle. He alluded to the
rorduct of Barun 4tmptetia. He felt upon the clesei
of the case a in neh more favourable opinion of the I
4,/u.yn than he I:.til at tiro. great part of the evi.;
tierce against her hail been completely disproved ; and
to e treatments of those alto thought her guilty eras prin-
cipally founded upon the absence of evidence which might
have been brought in her favour. lie thought there I
was enough to leave se.pieion on the mind, but by no
mans sufficient to warrant a conviction of guilt; and
even in such a case as the latter, lie conceived it would
rot justify a Bill of Mains awl Penalties. lie thought
catch allowance ebonld lie wade for the Queen on the
score of toreign manners, and the change of those
manner; in different countries. The Noble Duke pro-
ceeded to illustrate his remarks by observations on the
inners of the different countries through which her
Majesty hail passed, in which countries the behaviour
to servants was less reserved, and the intercourse
between the sexes not so confined as it was in
this country. Her sentinel was certainly ,
extrt.trdivary, but he could not say it was guilty; and ,
referring to the strong disapprobation which had
been shewn by the most respectable part of the coin-
rnuaity against the. Bill, he expressed a hope that
their Lordships decision would prove to be in unison
with public opinion ; but for himself, upon principle,
he was determined to resist the Bill.

On the Noble Duke sitting down, the clamor coa-
ti:met! for iereral minors, when

Lord BRENVI LLB ruse. lie said that in the first
instance he entertained a hope that at the close of a
long and laborious life which he had spent in conjunc-
tion with his Noble Friend near him (Earl (trey) it would
toot be a dereliction of hie duty, if at the end of
thirty-three years Parliamentary duty he hail continued
in his retirement : a retirement which he had chosen
for the ease of the few remaining days which it might
please Providence to spare to him. Even if he had
been as anxious engage in, as he was desirous to
withdraw from this proceeding, there was another cir-
cumstance which wouhiJeati to the deterrips hint from
any interference in the present arteiliisii.'" It !tut'
circumstance: of isle &evict:been engaged some, years
since in an taltuiry teniching the cossduct of the illus-
trious accused. But their Lordships had thought
proper to order the attendance of. every Member
of their House, and in obedience to that order he
attended in bis place; and ha was then induced
to trouble heir Lordships with his sentiments,
as be had observed that. several Noble Lords Dot in
the hallit of addressing them, bad thought it neces-
sary to state the ground of their decision. If, there-
fore; he had given a silent vote, it might be erroneous-
ly coaceived that he was unwilling to state the reasons
ppon which he had decided it. He had always been
ansions to press upon their Lordships the adoption of
that policy which, in his opinion, was favourable to
the Interests of the country; but in the present
ease, he considered the question upon which be
had to decide as merely judicial, and in the
opistiou therefore which he should pronounce, he
declared he had no desire to shake the
ibripion el-others. He was merely about to account
for his own. The question now for consideration was,
he conceived. not so much whether the Bill should
pass, or whether it should proceed to a second read-
ing. The whole was a mixed question of justice and
legislation. Of justice, because no man could vote
for the continuance of the proceedings without a per-
fect conviction on his mind that guilt bad. boon dis-
tinctly proved. He admitted it might be ergot with
perfect consistency that the Preamble of the Bill
was established, and yet that considerations of public
policy might interfere to prevent the passing of the BBL

•

• iOn the first question he hall Caren moat elisions f pos-
sible to pronounce ti tairourable decision. He bad en-
deavoured to bring his mind to a conclusion favourable
to the accused, to a 4.144 that it was tamer of suspicion
only, and if he multi Imre brotight hianeind to that con-
clusion he. should have vote.' a:re:Mit :the further conti-
nuance of the proceeding. lint lee was romp-Neil to
say, that the fact, the substance of the preamble
in the Bill, the adulterer'', intercourse, hail in
his opinion been completely proved. The public
attention had been direetedi them last few years to
souse rases of murder, of a most aggravated nature,
and in almost everresse, the coin ictiun of the criminals
had taken plan., entirely as circumstantial evidence, to
the satisfaction °revere mind. Now that a man should
be found with a knife in his pocket, answering the sire
of a wound indicted on the murdered man, is in itself a
alight circumstance and might occur, without attri-
hating the slightest guilt. If to that they added the
absence of that persore at a suspicions hour of the night,
from his house, still it would not he sufficient; hut if it
appeared that that liner eorrespondled: with the precise pe.
nod of the nsunler,and add to that th at the person had been
trare•l almost nearly to the place, c•here the 'atrocious
deed had been committed, then, indlee-I, it would re-
quite ;eery little adilitioni.l proof to bring conviction
home to every mini!. So in the present instance, it
had been proved, that the individual in qiirstion with-
out. any particular merit, as it appeared, hail, in a few
months. been der:deal to the table of the Princess, had
enjoyed her oak.- confidence ; and lead enjoved al-
most exclusively her society. These facts are all in
themselves seispiciona, but if they stood alone, they
would not be sufficient. They might be considered
snspid•ioce, and even improper, but they wdosehl by no
ine::ns lead to a complete conviction of roil It is
fairly posidsle that these ciretinistanc,s might
have occurred ; that they might have beliered
all the•:e fouiliarities took place, unaccompanied
by opportunity being sought fur the ennimission of
crime• ; hut when they came to learn that they slept
in t b•• same tent for five week. together; that that tent
cadmic.' from its iliterior a:1 others, and that those
who fitted access to that tent immediately withdrew
themselves ; am! when they came to couple with all
tle•se cirrinstances, that there was mot the slightest
shadow of excuse of any necessity being shown, then
indeed, he should say, that it was hard to doubt. If
the e war any doubt, or any presumption of doubt,
then indeed it should go to the benefit of the accused.
It might perhaps, he slid not know how it could, hut
suppose it might happen that the parties could be ennsi-
der•d to sleep war each other,without any criminality.
lint then, they should enquire, if this was a person to
whom the Lady hail never 'hewn any attention, if a
person of n higher nature, to whom she never paid any
particular attention, they might he glad to seize tin
that feet. and give it to the benefit of the accnsed.
But aho was tier person in this instance ? So that if
all these consideration are not considered sufficient
grounds for presnorption of guilt, the House should be
prepared! to say that in no case could a criminal inter-
course be proved except by lar dleinenistratitoo.--(1 tear)
An•l this could not he done iu 99 cases out of lOU. He
had now stated all that was necesary on that part of
the case. Ile begged to assure the Rouse, that he felt
extreaie retie( that ha wasoot called on te state auure.—,i
He now raffle to the question of expediency. At theenuhel
mencement of that preseeedieig, the House-had thwack
fit to appoint a Committee, and the result of that Como
mittee was, that ate investigation should take place. To
that inve•iiigalion he thaue•!it it his duty to attend mi-
nutely. That investigation bad now been ;Mlle through.
and fee dill not know what course could he pursued
whereby an opinion of guilt could he prommuced but by
voting for that 11111. The question then appeared to him,
was, whether now that the case erns heard, they shunhi
leave it undecided ? If the majority of the House
were of opinion that the Queen was innocent, would
it not be the height of injustice to deprive her Majesty
of the benefit of that opinion ? The effect of the mea-
sure was this. hlany may vote against this Bill who
are convinced of the guilt of the Queen, but no man
can possibly vole for the Bill, who has nut fixed his
opinion on judicial gmands. He would ask them what
motive could they have to enter into this inquiry without
proceeding to pronounce their final jui.genent on the
case?—(Hear, beat !) With respect to the votes of their
Loniships, no doubt many might consistently vote
against the 11111, and yet hare a conviction of the guilt
of the Queen—they might do so, because they might
dislike the course of proceeding; hut, on the other
hand, no man could vote for the Bill who hail not only
a moral huts judicial persuasion of her guilt.—(Hear,
hear!) More they arrived at the question whether the
Bill shouhl pass, there were two things to be decided,
which could only be considered and decided in the com-
mittee. The first was as to the extent of the !Jilt of
the Quern, a ilitestiord to Le derided by the majority of
the Court. By that opinion would they determine
whether the .preamble should he allowed to remain in
its present form, or ss /tether they would adopt another
lonic more consistent with the declared opinions of the
majority of that House. If so, the party accused wonhi
certainly be entitled to the benefit of that cliff . The
second question was one which could only be emosidered
after their Lordships had derided on the first; the second
quotation was, What would be the notimess anal whet, the
proportion of punishment which ought to lie awarded, if
the guilt of the partyshould hello:clamd by the opinions of
the majority of the House ? On that sufeject an intima:
tion had been thrown out, he thought soinewhat km.
gularlu, respecting the omission of that clause in the
Bill, which emanated to a dissolution of the marriage
vows ; he kept his mind open to consider that as well
as every other part of the momentous subject before them
be did so slow, to the last moment ; but at present his
opinion was, that if the House took as certain the guilt
of the Queen, that part of the Bill which went to enact
the Dissolntion of the marriage ought certainly to stand
—(Hear, hear!)—He would, keep his mind open to a
reconsideration of the subject, and should he hnd it ne-
cessary, lie should not be ashamed to alter his opinion.
Tier point was certainly one of the greatest importaase,
it involved great consideratiows—it was a great ques-
tion of policy, deserving the most mature consideration.
Mach hail been said on the present situation of the colo-
ny, and the temper and feelings of the people; bat not-
withstanding the power mad the close/woof many of his
Noble Friends, they still left on his mind the 11011Vidiallis
that the sodden promulgation of the opinion of and
House, that the Bill should be no further proceeded op,
would produee more Of public irritation.of mischief,. aid
of evil, than by their proceeding to a second rafting se
the 11111.

Lord ROSSLYN went through a great potties of,
the evidence, commenting as be proceeded, and seta•
tending that the whole ease against the Queen was
overthrows. It sons parts mart ael coemedieted,
was he not boned to look at the suspicions eireem-
stenee of gamelli and Rigenti's elate b brit i ad'
suborn the witnesses ? And had they MA the lads-
' faction of keening that many of the charges were

even given up by their authors ? . He had, nevettlimi
less, observed, that even those Noble. Lords who bad
given up Majocch?, permit, Sacohif and others, bad
endeavoured to obtain for them something like the
favour or consideration of their Lordships. With
what intentions of justice, or with what good and
honest motives this had been done, he was at
a loss to discover. The situation of her Majesty
on board the pularre was not a situation which
would have been chosen for the commission
ofadultery. At the most it was entitled to some degree
of suspicion arising from the previous elevation of 8ee...1
genii. Why had the Noble Lords opposite suffered the
charges to sleep for three years? Where hail been their
feelings for the honour and dignity of the Crown and of '
the nation? He would now say a word or two npon the
expediency or inexpediency of the measure. In the first
place, it had not been thotrglit expedient when the scan-
dal was fresh ; it had not been thought expedient during 1
the three years in which the Princess resided in Italy;
it was only thought expedient when bile COMP to fish'
country. Mane Noble Lords thought of modifications
of the Bill, and that it con!d be made proportionate
to the shades of guilt, when it came before the
Committee. say,- said the Noble Lori, •• if the pre-
amble of the Bill be not made out to the very extent
and letter, no honest man can give it his vote. One
single art 61 proved adultery, even taking it to be
proved, would plot warrant the passing of a bill which
elear,ett a loog course of adulterous intercourse and
scan:lalous conduct." He would next look at the conduct
of the prosecutors. Ile would ask if the Milan Com-
mission had helm dispatched fir ail honest purpose,
and for the -Livery of truth, were they not bound to
collect what evidence they could in favour of the l'rin-
ceps as welt as against her? Ile should have liked to
have seen the inside of the oreen Bag, for the purpose
of discovering how notch exculpatory proof it rontain-
ed. He was ready to vote against the bill, not only because
he thought guilt not proved, but because he deemed it ,
wholly inexpedietit. Much had been said of the pre-
sunaption of guilt agaiest the Queen. But was there:
so presumption in favour of the Queen? Was her corns!
ling over into this country in the manner she did, no
presumption of innocence ? Was it no presumption
of innocence, that, aware of her conduct being watched,
she discharged all the four servaws who Face evidence
against her within a mouth, although they must hare
beets in posic:ssion of the knowledge of any facts
'which in reality had occurred ? If it should be thel
intention of their Lordships to psi the Bill with-
out the Divorce Clause, he foresaw the t dread-
ful consequences. lie foresaw the degradation of •
the King ; for after all the Penalties of the
Bill had been inflirted upon the Queen, she
would still remain as a person whom the King i
most own for his wife. Every practice of the consti-
ration, every practice of our laws, every precept of di-
rine religion was against the divorce. Anil they cook!

not p3FI the Ili without it, because it would then be

I -
said of the Queen in regard to the King, "Gad es he
'nay he, she is stilt ;fowl tyntrgh for Iti.,i." It had been
I urged by the sulporters of the Bill that this was a pro-
secution at thell,t.thee of the state. Even taking it
in that point of riew the st•rte had no right to seek this
*rowdy. The state hail permitted the Queen to
live abroad from the society of her husband,
sad hail, with the full knowledge of all that
Jaw] b.-en sworn at the Bar, offered her a bribe of

ralt,ooo/. a year, to continue her absence, with full pee-
lmission to follow that course of life of which the state
now mule a complaitit.—(Lond cheers.)--If she were
tried on impeachment by the Commons, she would he
at liberty, as is the practice in all cases of impeachment,
to otter circumstances in mitigation of punishment, and
these were circumstances of mitigation. Were their
Lordships prepared to go into a fresh examination
of mitigator; cireuinstances? They were not ; and yet
they were asked to pass this Hill in all its severity. As
fur tl:e Divorce Clause, the rejection of which was pro-
posed as an expedient, he considered the rejection not
wily an absurdity, but an additional punishment on the
ilneen.--{Cheers.)—De felt iinwilling to proceed fur-
ther, but when he heard the Noble Lords coin heating !
bh Addresses presented to her Majesty, and on the i

answers to those Addresses; when hehesird them speak
of the mischief which might follow from the interfer-
ence of persons in the cause of her Majesty who were
hot considered well affected to time Government, he
was forced to ask those Noble Lords whether they bad
considered time consequeoces of passing the Ilill.--brad
they considered the consequences of degratlintilse
Queen, whilst they fixed her ism the country? he
greet body of the people being favourable to her cause,
Neling fir her misfortunes, might be rendered despe-
rate by the severity of her treatment—desperate, too,
against the higher classes of society. He hoped their
Lordships would have the wisdom and the virtue to
avoid so calamitous an issue. If they should degrade
e Queen by their judgment, they would make her
the rallying point to the disaffected—they would ex-
pose the country to danger--the Throne to degradation
—they would risk the characterof that House, in times
when it was so necessary that it should stand high in
the opinion of the people. The consequence of passing the
Hill would be the universal indignation of the respet-
table end enlightened part of the community, and
Would afford a rallying point to those who had been sod
eloquently described as the disaffected. The Nimble
Rarl then sat down, and the cries of "Question, ques-
don," became tumultuous, and strangers were about to be
ordered to withdraw, when
Lord HOLLAND said, that as every Peer would Nava
to stand up in his place, and say Content, or Not Con-
tent, the exclusion of strangers would be nanecessary.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that notwithstanding
the argument of the Noble Lord, the House must rain-1
mutely divide, and therefore it would be proper to en-1
kw, the standing order.
Strangers were then ordered to withamw,and a division
took place on time question upon the second readingef
the NI of Pains and Penalties, when there appeared
Contents - - -• s • ---- - • 123
Non Contents
Majority in favour of a second reading .
Adjourned until toforrow Akt 10.
• Farther extract frog the Norfolk Pipers received
nu Saturday :

48

LARD n 4311 Till PATRIOTS.
frail Captain WATKINS who arrived from

5, that • short time before he sailed. a

lbieiN Igim'Oef Naked there frasa Manta Martha,
briergiag lederieselos that the Patriot forces were en-
heriag that ease, end tint carding= and kaaanaybo
*ere both dearly laramnd by sad laM. Harctiana
was eertaiely is poemeheie aad thole
mese rarklir plain rotted: a doubt was ester-1
Weed of their ahloate sins's.