The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-06-12 00:00:00

TOE STATEStst

• •
%be tmettion; all he asanteriki It; eennat
lie adiantage. •
As.liMr• HlCHlVbeibi Woe we cop ist s.
ltdd hArtsv"roitle togYekaly. ~›
'nil LORD MAY sad Mr. ELLICE ea#.l4. fro.
VIAHEir said he would not only sittlert the repeal of
the Combination AM*, but e 150,100014 gpy mesearen*
might bwproposed for allowing seiSekleg to'onii-
grate. Hi thooglit VW the pritiefplirof "martrins vow
to be of a I and not perthd netnrt. He kop,e44/11A
the landedttlgist would suemtrt him in thistlew (tithe
subject; for If arfilifet could hot get tows; Uteynitetbb.
Mai a hordes to the Parma, and coasequently the landidast
defray this additioaal Charge:
Mr. BY NG saw no aeceesity whatever for repeal
Acts. He wished to leave that which was well atllt
There were many !meshes of large. mind who desired to
see the Its aboltshed, but the lateresti of 'the pee* of
Spitalfi s ought not to be sacrificed on that eCeetint. 111
Spltalfields the poor were not burdensoine to' the pith&
for the present system offordedthelwanflielont means of sith-
shoetree. Flu never desired more bushiest meted in thels
than would give clutter,* emploratiet 10 the labouring-70
potation. Ile knew that iwthe great mansfacturtagdistriella
the ordinary rote amigos durissr the war was 30e. a veil&
but whoa peace came and a redoettos took place, theeoitall-
queen that followed were too notorious to be fortieth.*
The conduct of the weavers of Spitalfields under all &MP
stances was highly commendable. •
Mr. Alderman C. SMITH said a lieeravords which mete
not audible in the gallery, and a Mettles htivleg then tali
place, the numbers were—Ayes, 411—Noes, 40-slajorityin
favour of the 13.
On our re-admission into the winery we found the
SPEAKER putting the question, and. the Dill was this
read a third time and passed.
ALTERATION OF THE CURRENCY.
On our return to the Gallery, we found 1. •
Mr. WESTERN calling the attention of the House to
the subject of his motion relative to the state of the Cur-
rency. He had failed, he observed, in two attempts to
induce the House to take this subject Into their consi-
deration, but he was not the less persuaded that his views
were correct. He should do his best to impress them
upon the House, and to point oat that the working of 11
events since he had last addressed them confirmed rather
than confuted his opinions. His object was to endeavour
to persuade the House to enter into a full consideration
of the subject, In the shape of an enquiry through the
Medium of a Committee. The doctrine which he was
prepared to maintain wee, that the measure renting to '
the currency, which commenced is 1814, and was cos-
summated in 1819, was one not only of spoliation, but
of absolute confiscation of property. In order to settle
the question, whether this was the right view to be taken
of the measure or not. he wished an inquiry to be insti-
tuted into all the variations of the value of the currency
since the year 1793 to the present time, that was to say,
since the contraction in the quantity of circulating me-
dium which had been carried i,to effect. Were this
done, he was convinced the House and the country would
be most effectively assured that they acted in error in
projecting the measure in question. For his own part.
whatever might be restored to hereafter, he did•not con-
template the re-establishment of an unlimited paper cur-
rency, which no man in that House, nor any where else,
regretted more than himself. Neither did be contem-
plate that by possibility there could ever be again that
foil extent of currency which hail existed betore. He
btgged, before lie proceeded any further, esplicity to de-
clare that he did not expect that soy Gentleman toting
for his motion of inquiry, would pledge himself to the
adoption of any of his (Mr. %V.'s) opinions. There was
no occasion for its altering the state of any one's views.
He did not know that be should object to the experiment
of the Hon. Member for Portarlingtun, provided be could
shew that his plan propounded in the Committee of 1319,
viz. to pay in bullion instead of coin, would not have in•
creased the value of gold tried by the measure of commo-
dities. But by the operation of the Restriction Art, be
considered the value of gold bad been greatly altered.—
That since 1819 the value was much raised was proved,
by the fact that in that year wheat was at seventy-two
shillings and a fraction, and at that 'period one ounce
of gold would not have commanded more than nine
bushels of wheat. He did not consider this question merely
as an agricultural one, but he must at the same time
say that it was an agricultural question as well as
one affecting all other classes of the community. Con-
sidering that this tneasnre bad deprived every class,
from the aristocracy to the artisan, of a portion of pro-
perty, it mite • iunably affected all, and not one branch
in particular. His opinion with respect to the returning
prosperity of the agriculturists, was that it was a most
futile and fugitive notion ; and he was prepared to
argue, from the average prices of this year, that the
depression arose front the increased value of money.
The present price of wheat was, up to May this year,
465. per quarter, and barley 3.55., which were lower
than the average of 150 years before the war. But he
did not, as he said before, treat this as an exclusive agri-
cultural question ; he was prepared to contend that the
standing income of the country had been reduced; and
even those who were most opposed to himself in opinion
admitted that it had been reduced by this measure 10 per
cent. According to the property tax returns, the total
income of land including Ireland was 50 millions; but
to elbow the actual total value of the produce of the
land, they must estimate it at 200 millions, deducting
from which 10 per cent., gave 20 millions, which ope-
rated as so much additttonal taxation. The redaced
value of land might be fairly stated at 30 per cent.
The price of wheat he considered would never go above
555.; so that the total reduction on the amount of mo-
ney actually drawn front the produce of the land, was
60 millions. This amount, he maintained, was for ever
lost, and thus laid like so much taxation for ever on the
income of the country. If he could show reasonable
ground for supposition that in 1814 and 1819 the real
value of the existing currency was misunderstood, then
be maintained, the House was bound to agree to inquiry.
If, in a matter in which the income of the country had
heed decreased in an unprecedented manner, the House
of Commons were apt on the alert, what would become
of their basted jealousy in regard to Money Bills ?
(Hear.) The Income tax of 10 per cent: woo* have
been a boon compared to the measure of 1919; and
ne contended that the value of the currency might he so
changed that the whole income of the country
must be handed over to the tax-gatberer.—(Hear )
That the House had not understood what would be the
efect of their measure in 1819, he thought was sudi-
ciently proved by the fact of their never baying turned
their attention, in their previous inquiries, to the effect
upon taxation, front any alteration in the value of the
currency. The lion. Member for PortarlingtOn thought
he had done enough when he proved that the difference
between die value of paper and metallic currency was
only 5 per rent. But rvither lie for the House seemed
to have Made any examination into the value of the ag-
gregate currency; they seemed to have nusdieno eon:
minstion into the elfect_of a change of currency upon
the necessary wrictes of existence; and yet all former
writers on the subject enjoined a strict vigilance over
the fluctuations of bread-torn in making any alteration
in the Cahn of the currency. Even the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Secretory Peel) told them that
the price of, labour was at all times the best criterion of
fie value of Money. Mr. Itorner'copluiore on the con-
trary, most decidedly was that the price of bread-awe
was-the best and only certain criterion. As a proof that
he ass right, they bad wiry to rider to the rise and fall
in the price of wheat after the itedrictione on the curree-
oir were put Oil, and after they were taken off. The
present sure of the country was, that it was loaded with
a rlekt. a great part of which it never incurred, and
altattgrd oath the repaymeot of which it never received.
tiae branch of burley jut° which he 10'1E4

iirill jfir.ilivsn 116 e effect of the Change)* thwitherof tint
cayrlaiit on asentry contracts. net: it Ind' ears& ll!
i4lll,lfff
i. reit in to then could be no diebts-iltite,
11`....1ict alt hiroLotail the contract' ,betwisdo 1
ant tenant altogether. la all eases, whit but emir
: ,Catntiani; the= liandisitil :laid - been. (Waged IA
ntip' 14
..o sent thirty per amt.; and that he was as-
wimi** bring. title greet' landed proprietors to beg-
y. li .these Amp • meet- es they woeld have a pole
eirsristoslmey, a haltered nary. and a swarm of
:i.
kick farmers, anti palate...fed populition.—(Heart
plassintry - woad 'be degraded blond any thin
ever NM bitivret 111*Se detleathe Meese to contempltitg
this fewlect with. trawitailtiir, 'Phis depreciation won!.
nut stop is its operations with the agriculturalist &lose.
Willem Idwaseredly alined to mg-other elan of the nai-
-1 munity. But it was men triettbattlas min of manefactur.
las lobes!. had notfalfea .so leer as egrioultiral labour, fat
the said. anpresclon weal.* soon melt that part of the cola
sanity. la proportion es wises frit, tbe burden of taxation
would he felt in exactly-the same ratio. He would not pram
fay other arguments on the House to Indere them, to paean
elpate In his views op this euesdon. He felt consdent that
Ratak, sever be answered told* that the House was not lo
error when it passed this measure. Taking the most ex-
pensiyelkeriode a the ',delver. he emended, without fear
of contradietini that Them our expenditure was seventy-
four and• eighty-four millions. the real valve of that was
only fiftyokight and sixty miltions.Such was thedepreetated
, stateot the eemeleyin then periods; and then he yokel
whether this country was to be paylve for such borrowed
sums. seventy-four and eighty-four millions. Upoft this
point he threw down the gaint:let to the Hon. Member for
Portarlington, (Mr. Ricardo.) and challenged contradiction.
The currency appointed in 1819 was, in truth, the establish-
ment of a new currency. The tray to bate estimated that
currency was, by the standard of all the debts incurred dur-
ing the long departure from the ancient standard. To have
, established. in 1819, a new mecum antes, withont recur-
ring to the ancient rate of salaries, and ail money payment
was s Manifest injustice to the whole (*mull.. He called
upon the House to examine into the truth of the ellegatims
he bad made. In consideration of the diminution of income,
caused. as he bad shown, Ike asked tin Hon. lalember fur
Pottarliabton, whether thig country dead ever again be
able to meet an expenditure of eighty-four millions. Tre
Army sad Navy. cud those whose salaries bed been
raised and not loweted since 1814). were those only who
had gained, Including always the stockholder, in whose fa-
vour all variations of the value of gold had been made.—
The Hon. Member concluded. by moving for the appoint-
ment of a Committee. "To take into consideration the
changes in the value of the Currency since 1793 to the pre-
sent time, and the consequent eft ct upon the money, In-
come, and industry of the country ; the amount of the talic
Debt and Taxes, with reference to their money value. and
the effect which such chains have wrought upon all Money
tecontreets between individuals."
• Mr. RICARDO expressed his concurrence in most of
the principles laid down by the IlOnourable Member.—
But he thought it a strange mode of reasoning, though
often practised, to lay down the most sound and correct
principles, and then draw from them inferences which
they did not warrant. The Hon. lientleman contended
that by restoring a paper currency to a metallic currencv,
the circulating medium was diminish-1 Nu one .1).
jected to that argument. On the contrary; he (Mr. Ri-
earde,) mentioned formerly, that in consequence of the
restriction on the Bank of England in 1797, by which
the Bank was empowered to lame paper money, the cur-
rency was deprecisted. The restoration in 1819 had of
course the effect of raising the value of money. In that
they all agreed, and the difference between them was
only in degree. There were two classes of persons who
made different calculations On the change of the cur-
rency, and he differed from both, as much as they differ-
ed among themselves. The Hon. Member (Me. Western)
confining himself to 1819, said the ratite of money was
increased 30 per cent The lion. Member for Callington
(Alt. Attwood) steed it differently in a publication which
he gave on the subject, computing according to the year
antecedent. lie was not at variaece with respect to the
variation in the depreciation of the currency. The ob-
ket in 1819, was to have some fixed standard of value.—
The Batik of England was entrusted with a power that
was most formidable to the country, and it was fee that
reason necessary to put an end to it. Ha therefore as-
sented to the measure of 1519, because he knew it was
calculated to obviate the dangers that might arise flout
the power of the Bank. To him it was nu object how it
was to be accomplished, so that the standard was fixed.
In the discussion which took place in 1819 on, the tun-
sure, he did say that the depreciation in the currency was
to be measured by the difference in value between gold
and paper, taking gold as the standard. He woul I main-
tain the same thing at present; but he never said that
the standard itself was not variable. He appealed to any
trifle that had come from his pen, for a proof that lie al-
ways.maintaincil that gold, t's well as any other comm.).
dity, was liable to variation. He was accused of having
said that prices could not vary more than 5 per cent. in
consennence of the alteration made in the standard of va-
lue of the currency in 1819. He maintained that in order
to bring the currency to its true value.it should he brought
to such a standard,and to effect that it wasonly necessary to
raise the value of the paper currency 5 percent. Mr. Peel's
Bill did not require the Bank to procure any id Mien'
quantity of gold ; and if that Bill were followed up steadily
the currency might be carried on without more gold than
was then in the Bank. There was nothing in all that to
make the value of gold change. But it was a matter of
charge against him that gold was altered in value. It was
altered in value because the Bank of England put their face
against the Bill. They collected all the gold they could pos-
sibly find--they sought for it at home and abroad, and they
turned the exchange against us in all countries. In conse-
quence of those measures, unnecessary as they were on
the part of the Bank, they caused the rise in gold to
go beyond the amount at which he had calculated it. But
notwithstanding that unexpected and unjustifiable conduct
by the Bank, he did not see how the Hon. Gentleman could
support ids arguments unless he meant to say that there was
no other cause of distress but the alteration in the value of
gold. But the lien. Member took no notice of the change
made in the price of gold by having It collected from all
countries at any rate it could be purchased at, bnt came
down and said the price acorn only should have been made
the standard of value. This eoantry was an importer of
corn before the war ; but in consequence of the state of hos-
tility in which we were placed in towards other States, less
corn could be procured from abroad. The price, of course.
became very high; the consequence was, that more capital
was applied to the raising of corn. The low 'prices at pre-
sent were to be ascribed partly to a reaction, which was na-
tural, because all persons had turned their capital to the pro-
duction of a commodity so profitable. Over production and
abundant harvests were another cause of low prices for agri-
cultural produce. That the burdens of the country were
great was not surprising. During the war the farmers did
not complain, because they had high prices. Was a war to
be serried on with a profit /—(Hear, hese) Was the bnr-
den greater than they ought to beer I The Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Western) said that the stockholders were benefitted by
the change in the currency. Tiara was natural enough; but
they had no benefit on the debt of about five hundred mil-
lions. contracted before the currency was deprecided. Ho
would maintain that the stockholders were losers, in those
years daring the depreciation, to an amount that would pur-
chase a perpetual annuity. equal to that part of the debt
that was mod/noted since the commencement of the depre-
ciation.—(them. hear.) Who else gained by the Alteration
in the currency? Why, the pay of the Army and Navy was
increased. But that was the can in all countries as well's
this. to many of the statement's of the Won. Gentleness he
tweed. The lion. gentleman had said that the motes
come of theigricultural classes 1134 reduced about twat,
millions, andthe effect teas such aks if so tench was adsledds
the been° of taxation. That ,;,....au extraordinary eon*.
si a. If the earreecy was altered to the amount of Mir*
par cwt., the whole texatin of the country was so made
leeward, heaths tend oysters could ant sae that they paid
that thirty peestent., for la fact all classes contyibited their
proportion Tine llonourable Gentlemin dhould not have
left out of his account the advantages gained by dm
landed wants degas the time in whirl corn "bore Nigh

prices. If they caketated Ihr ailment of those titan oos
be the farmers by the doped Won of the currency, they
would be found to cover all their losses since the fall of
'prices. He could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman
that the alteration in the currency did amount to 30 pee'
cent. If the 84nk of England followed dtrietly the Bill
of 1819, the alteration, as be then toed, and as he now

zlinctear.ianaletawouldj atag be
..
au lit per cent. But
ied
aasp ailththee ttoohaky,
could' get, It was by that means a further difference,
which, at the utmost, be would allow to br 5 per cent.
same; if roost, was hetes-he arid, alit* Histroarable
Itienticm an contended, it would be shewn in a fatting off
la the Legacy Duty or Probate Day. The same quand-
ryof preseertrwoold bet op as average of rein, dispaed
of by will, as be believed that people then died in the
same ratio as.they 'diet formerly—(A laagh); and if the-
value of
woafsino)rot a f property pay
off either d:
t"
be
eeistr in the La imatedbyegthater or
Probate Ditty. So fir as that proof went, it was eve_
elusive that there was no alteretien.—(A 'herr from 31r.
Western.) Ile did not know why the Honourable Ora-
-1 Orman nas cheering; he .could nut tell whether it nal
a cheer of epprolotion or dissent, .and would have beers
satisfied was tt of support. anal not of dissent. There was
no falling off in the receipts of ad valorem stamps, an.'
if there had b en a falling off in the vale* of all commo-
dities. the stamps by which the transfer of all of tame
was made, would serve as the most direct ulnae to show
it. Then there was the increase' of the Revenue also
Realist the arguments of the lienourable Gentleman, •
for how it wes possible to believe that the velure of money,
as he said, was altered 30 per cent., while the mem.
bad Continued to increase as it had done. To him this
argument was decisive. as a proof that there was no alters-
dnt in the value of money, while the actual money re-
venal increased, itself increased. The Hon. Gewletnai
asked him whether, with the present seirrrney and state
I of all coin nodities, in the present value of
child undertake the expense of a war to the Went of sever-
ty-four millione. HMV the comparative value of th queerer
currency and the present be as seated by hint, he
should have asked how lifiy-eight millions could be
provided. He world answer him, asl give it as his
opinion that the country could still bear the same calls
it the lane-agau•ssity made them. It WAS inconsistrat to
speak of altering property. Alter the vaht •of currency
as you please. you cannot alter the property i!seif. He
dented that any alteration in the currency took any thing
from tire power of the country. Although he street
wirli merest many of the opinions of the Right Hoe.
President of the Guard of Trade, there was one opiniu
which he could not subscribe to,and which was hell wire
rather with too mach confidence. Ile said th st the
alteration of the currency was a useful measure as a war
measure; but to that he (Ur. It.) coahl not subserine.
There was no effect at Uhl front it, when you went ire*
the market as a purchaser, because you had to par an
additional price for the same quantity in the reduced
currency. And there was, consequently, no advantiver
from it as a war measure. Ile gave these opinions de-
cidedly at present in reflation of the deetrine, as he
intended in future to do away with the value of the ar-
guments. It was mutes better when the necessity comes
,_
that the currency should be suet bubbly, o ithout resort-
ing to sophistry or subterfuge to conceal realaies, lie
could not help snaking a few coinmepts on the obser-
vations of the lien. Gentleman which appeared throlig4
another channel (a pamphlet published by Mr. Western.)
When that lion. Gentleman spoke of !aO9 millions of
National Debt, he was erroneous, so far an allowanee
should have been ma le for the 11)1) millions pad hack,
and his calculation should hare been foopded on a suite
borrowed of 400 millions only. The Han. Gent: here
read several long extracts from the pamphlet, which he
commented on them as he read thmo. If the Gill. which
was brought in, anti which was said to have the effect of
depriving Lora liiiog of one of his rents ; if th at Bill
had been theo'wo out, would' it ma Imre altered rite
I standard of gold from—H.l6s to 3'. 17s. the next el ty.
Was no, he tumid ask. the lion. Gentleman venting iri
his prophetic view, when he supported that Bill in 1311?
What grace there was in the alteration of his opinions
.from five per cent, in five years, to 15 per cent., as he at
present declared in one year. He should like to contrast
the opinions, then held, with those maintained by the
same lion. Gentleman in 1316. As for himself he
(Mr. IL) contended that he insintaitel the same argue
menus which he then held, at all forma. periods. He
could nor, however, object to a fair change of opinion
in others. An honourable change from convicion was
praiseworthy ; but there were opinions befa e him differ-
ing at various times, by these very gentlemen who re-
proached others with a want of consistency. Ile wished
to know whether the arguments in the pamphlet which
he read, as to over production, were not the same as they
lately held. And when be agreed with the opinion
Maintained on former occasions, by the Hon: lientlernot
himself ; he turn• round and reproaches him with hold-
ing the same opinion. The Hon. Gentlemen illustrates
the state of the currency by a comp trison e id% that of Am-
sterdam. Prom 1314 to 1321, time fall there was 251 per
cent, anti a similar change in this country was 441 per
cent. The lion. Gentlemen next spake of the Fundliold-
ers, but as lie thought that the fundhohler received only
what was their right, taking. them as a body. He 113,/
explained on a former occasion, that there was a perfect
equality with reference to the periods when the debt was
contracted, so that the payers of taxes had no right to
'complain. The Hon. Gentleman was, therefore, not war-
ranted in using the term robbery, and he went ra her
too far to assert that the debt was a robbery of the public,
maintained by force, not right." The Hon. Gentle-
man charged indirectly on bins that he was deeply inte-
rested in supporting .the interests of the fundholders, at
the expease of all other classes of time community ; but
the Hoc Member was deeply interested himself at one
side of the question. lie was a large proprietor of land,
his Income was dependent on the price of its produce,
and every measure which lie recommended evidently bed
the effect of raising time price of those commodities hose
ficial to himself. He (Mr. It.) on the other hand, bed s
certain property In land, and an equal amount in funded
property, so that it would baffle the nicest calculator.
even the lion. Gentleman himself, to say at which side of
I the subject his chief interest lay.--(Here Mr. R. real
reonsiderable extracts from the same pemplet,) He then
commented on the effects of Mr. Peel's Hill, which% be
contended, would generally benefit the country, and that
l agricultural as well as all other interests would flourish
through its operation. The question of currency was
made of too much importance, and a degree of alarm was
endeavoured to be excited upon it, totally uncalled for
and unnecessary. Ile (Mr. IL) then read an extract free
a pamphlet of Mr. Attwood's, on which he made a few re
marks. He then concluded by saying that he should
vote against the motion for a Committee; theagh he
might almost agree to it, as a punisliment to the WO
lion. Gentleman himself, who should be obliged to acts
Chairman, and to provide and arrange matter fur its fit'
liberations.
The Mammies of TITCHPIELD snpported thermion.
He had no wish that the agricultural class shoed
benetitted at the expense of airy other, but he whhei
merely for inquiry. For inquiry be contended that
prime facie case had been made out by his Ron. Het.
The united talent sad information of all lion. 30441,"
'maid tie aught to hear upon the sublet:tin a Cowed-
tee. He thought the former Ressintiens of the Betsaa
respecting the Currency had Ibsen the cause et all us
calamities which had since fallen upon the eessessyt
theyehat eneouraged die Land Proprietor tociaimardls
poorerillsittat an increased earner. /fad theme
dons avowed, rather than colicealbil• the tlep---atievi
our paper currency, men itOultlithrtie-itauwa ltottvr2:
guide their contracts. *lt dile toir befog dams 1P"