The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-03-06 00:00:00

ground of conferring a benefit on the agricultural
rests...had completely failed of its effect.
Sir U. BURRELL, in a few words, supported the
tision, and bore testimony to the truth of the Hon. Gen-
tleman's assertion, as to the tax having failed of its ef-
fect; with respect to the interests of the native grower,
the importation having become greater than ever since
it. enactment.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the Table.
BOROUGH OF GRAMPOUND.
• •1111 r. S. WORTLEY rose to more the Order of the
14y fOr•receiviug the Report of the Committee on the
bill of disfranchising firampound and transferring the
elective franchise to Leeds. He said that although
the Noble Lord who introduced- the bill hail declined
. to proceed with it oo account of the qualifying clause
which he (Mr. W.) proposed having been carried, yet
, •he felt himself bound to go on with it. He, however,
• t'veiehed to make some alteration in that clause, and for
•
• • bat purpose thought it would be the better way for
• * • •:the House to allow the Bill to he recommitted and
• %printed, to give Members an opportunity of thoroughly
considering its provisions. The alteration which he
proposed to make was, that instead of the elector
being required to rent a house at the actual yearly ea-
- due of 201. it should be provided, that the elector
should be a householder paving scot and lot, awl rent-
ing a tenement, whether of 51. or 10/. or 15/. which
with land occupied by him might amount to the yearly
value of 201., and only where lie bad no land should
it be necessary for the yearly value of the house alone
to amount to that gam. The Hon. Member concluded
by moving that the Order of the Day be read, and the
bill recommitted and ordered to he printed.
Mr. A BERCROM BIE wee of opinion that the bill
ought to be printed before the re committal, especially
the new clauses.
Mr. S. WORTLEY observed, that it would be bet-
ter to go first into the Committee,•and have the whole
printed.
An Hon. Memaire stated, that he was one of those
who had voted for the amendment, which raised the
goalification from 10 to 20!. hecanse he thought that
• such a qualification would establish a mode of election,
which, without being inconveniently extended, would
be sufficiently popular ; but as it was proposed to re-
commit the bill, he thought it would he right to take
aJtantage of the intervening time, and procure an ac-
tual rate of the value of houses in Leeds, that it might
be seen accurately how matters stood.
Mr. LOCKHART made an observation not audible
in the Gallery.
Mr. S. WORTLEY stated,' that there were no less
than 1690 houses in Leeds, of the yearly value of 201.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said lie was not present when this
subject was debated on a former night, or lie would
have felthimself bound to support the Noble Lord who
brought in the Bill, who, it was known, had sincere
views with respect to Reform, as far sfe•they wended,
but his feelings towards it were somewhat different
when he saw it in the hands of those who were notori-
ous for mot entertaining any such views. However, he
did sot mean to oppose the Bill even under the present
circumstances, though, from the beginning, he did not
think it would answer the end proposed, much less
wilily the wishes of the country.—But he thought it
useful and necessary, that even those• who, though
intending to go much greater lengths in the doctrine
of Reform than the Noble Lord, should come forward
aid shew that they were willing to accept of any:
thing, however little, when they could not get all
that they desired. That little which the Bill offered
to the people in its original shape, was however made
still less in the bands of the Honourable Member fur
Yorkshire; but the Bill ha I not lost all its distinctive
character, it still bore marks of its origin, and per-
-1 aps it was better that it should come from the lion.
tientlenian titan the Noble Lord. The principle was
not altered, it was only shaped so as to he rendered
more attractive in the eyes of the Uentlemen opposite.
1t was deserving of being c
Matre pulchri, !ilia pitlehrior." [a 'nimbi
Having said thus much as to the Bill, lie could not
omit that opportunity of malting some observations on
. what had been said on a former night, when be was
absent, relative to the character and conduct of electors
paying scut and lot, but particularly the electors of
Westminster. The attack might have more weight
Fad it come from a less suspicious source, hut he less
regretted his own absence, beraus;, bad he been pre-
sent, lie might have been led by the irritation of the
moment to have treated an insinuation made at that
time, with the sovereign contempt it deserved, and he
might have bet-nal:0 induced, much as he respected the
llonouraLle Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring), not
to have paid him all that deference which lie could
. always wish to give to one, to whose knowledge and
abilities the country hail Leen often indebted ; but
really the Hotioure"e Meniber had gone a little too
far when he said that the electors of Westitilthier
would not give their rotes to any candidate who could
not lath to them a great deal of nonsense. lie did not
see how the qualification by scot and lot necessarily
produced such a consequence; but he would tell him,
that when he arraigned the character of the electors
of Westminster in this way, lie did it under ignorance
of the subject lie was talking abon;.—(Hear,
.tear.)—He would tell him, that for independence,
-letegrity. and discernment, unless in the titmice of
one Representative, there was no body of inen who de-
served more highly of their country than the electors
of Westminster. The manner in which they gave their
- roes was not such as another Honorable Member had
stated. There was nu bribe looked for in the pay-
ment of pour-rates to qualify them to vote. Ile knew
where the Honorable Member bad received his in-
• .Liamations. but he did not hesitate to say, that it came
Irons a source that was false and infamous. He (Mr.
11.) was enabled to state that there was a Gentleman
. . .•; *lab in the House, who, if the Petition which oats pre-
ie6ted against his awn return hail been persevered in,
-.would bare 'hewn such items of expense on the part
' •of the popular candidates for the last three elections
•In W-eistminster, as were wholly new to Committees
shat•liouse. He would have shown that in a place
- • irlitrie there were 15,000 electors, who, during 15
" Illyi were carried up to the poll, not a penny was ex-
. ,pended but in a I,gitiniate manlier, for printing adver-
tisements, hirin•g rooms, and other objects absolutely
...necessary in contested election, ; every thing was open
fair-•-uot an item of expense but what was legally
ac anted. for ; and the charge svbich bad been so un-
,eidethedly .ssi?de wis a libel and a.ealumny not only
• • -. • (Wei people of gestatinster, but on the people at
•••• .4argis. at • least on all betties of electors whose
• .ti iglit•• et lettag depended upon the payment of
.e.ft • .

:11.;

• 4 : '

worry for it, be... _ _ _ led
Hon. Member bad done—to speak of him is Isis absence;,
but he could not help it, as those sort of Magi emtld ttot '
keep cool.—(A laugh.)—He had stated, that the canal-.
dates for Westminster had no chance of success unless
they talked nonsense to their constituents.—(A taught*
the Ministerial Beeches.)—These were bard words, but
when the House heard the comment with which they
were accompanied, It would appear (bat—
Mr. BANKES rose to order. He slid that it was dis-
orderly to refer to any statement as a misrepresentation
which might baveoecurred in a former debate, when the
Member who was allegro!. to have wade it was net pre-
sent to support it, or explain.
The SPEAKER said, it certainly was the rule of the
House that a Member should not refer to a former de-
bate, in which there might have been an incautious tont-
representation, when the ordinary disadvantage of such
reference was coupled with the absence of the Member to
whom it was attributed, and who, had he been present,
might possibly show that the usis-statemeut was unin-
tentional.
Mr. HOBIIOUSE proceeded, and said he was always
ready to pursue that line of conduct which appeared
most agreeable to the opinion of the Chair and the usages
of the House. At the same time it was very hard that he
should. in his absence, hare been alluded to as one who
was in the habit of talking nonsense. There was, how-
ever, a way of putting the matter without violating the
orders of the House. and he was resolved that the ob-
servations of the lion. Mernher for Curie Cottle (Mr.
13ankes) should not have the effect of preventing alto-
gether what he was about to say, though it would tansy
him to change his manner of putting it. lie would say
then to those Gentlemen who objected to the right of
voting being allowed to people who paid sent and lot,
and who supported an almost unl. ted taxation, and
who said that to such people no man si as recoutinenslab!e
but on the score of his nonsense, that they wade a very
great mistake; what was nonsense to one man, might
appear sound wisdom toanother, and that might account
why it was that what was thottelst wi-dot;; within doors,
sometimes appeared no Netter than folly without. 'flit-
people were perhaps more competent to discover, wise.
her a man was talking nonsense than time lion. Member.
for Taunton supposed i and Übe would only make the ex
eriment, and try what lie could do on a popular 'tasting,
he would find that there was no place u here fallacies or
absurdity were sooner detected, and be might Iwo
that lie carried his own commodities in that way to a
bad market.—(Fries of " Ilear," and lammehter.)—Those
who made such attacks as he was obliged to ;animad-
vert ulion, on the people at large, made a hail return
for their discernment in electing them, if the repre-
sented popular places, particularly such a one as
Taunton. In that place, where, of course, no non-
sense was ever spoke, be believed it had once hap-
pened that the popular candidate had entertained Isis
constituents in quite a classical style, by having car-
ried before him a loaf as large as a house, summontsted
by four Cupids (loud laughter). Now bail as West-
minster was, absurd as its taste was represented to be,
he did verily believe, that a loaf twice as large, null
double the number of Cupids, would not obtain the
ingenious Candidate a single vote (a laugh). Ile did
not mean to say positively that this had occurred, but
he spoke of it from good authority. But it was
worth remarking, that the Honourable Gentleman and
others, who aroused time Candidates for Southwark and
Westminster of talking nonsense, were always ready to
Ratter their own pretensions to good sense, by passing
encomiums on time wisdom of the house ; this was no-
thing else than panegyrising their own eloqttettee and
capacity, but there was as little modesty in it as )mfg-
went. By adopting this practice they ran the rush of
converting that house into something very like the Pari-
ilia, of Fools, where every man fancied II • 4••• in 0111
possession of all wisdom, knowledge and dignity, to the
exclusion of all other persons beyond time sacred pre-
cincts of such a privileged and happy assembly.
Well might they then become deaf to the groans, the
hisses, and the laughter of their fellow coontremen,
whenever they unhappily imagined that that nisdomms
hail gone out of doors. There was another point which
he wished to observe upon. It had been sai.l, that
the candidates in Westminster and such places used
language which they would be ashamed to use in the'
presence of Gentlemen. how, what was or was not
becoming a lientleuien was matter of (yn'', im. What
appeared gentlemanlike to one man might out be so
to another ; but with respect to himself lie coald only
say, that there was nothing is hick be had sail on the
hustings of Westminster, which he would nut he ready '
to repeat in that House ; and lie was proud always to
avow, that when lie first offered himself to the electors,
lie had given a pledge from which he would be shamed
to retire—(blear, hear). 1% ith regard to that indivi-
dual Bill, lie congratulated the country oa time pro-
gress which reform had made; this was pretty evi-
dent from the fact, that when Gentlemen of the monied
interest opposed any proposition of Reform, there was
not wanting Jletuhems of Noble ;IA Illustrious Fami-
lies to speak in its favour. This was consolatory to
the people. It taught them round %%Isom they ought
to rally—it pointed omit their natural defenders, ..;:.:
gave them reason to believe that when the time c..ius
they would not be wanting to them and their can-r.
Never did the great expediency of ltefarimi appear
more evident than in the present time, woe!'
Spain, Naples, and Portugal, were choosiug Com:-
stitutions for themselves ; and not guitt,s to th::t
of Great Britain, but were adopting Astiatitet %t hick
they thought would better secure to them Cie emiov:
ment of their rights ; and then the Allied Soli-reigns
said, " Don't let those people tune the Spanish Con-
stitution, give them the English one in preference, it
will give ims less alarm." Knowing what tls semi-
silents of the Allied Sovereigns :verc with res! met to
the liberties of the people, im was m ;Icy to see what this
meant. It was easy to see that they did not hiow the
Constitution of England—cleat they were ignorant of
its essential virtues—of its old and glorious principles
—of its guarded rights and its powers, jealoa4 of ems.
croachtneut.—(clear, hear.)--No, this is as out the
Constitution that they meant. Theirs was a inure
novel one, and one which th. Gentlemen opposite meant
always ready to call matchless, and he agreed with'
them. It was indeed matchless in rotten buronair *
matchless in sinecure places—matchless in penssruper
and placensen—(Hear.)—Those Gentlemen ha ll*.
night given time country a proof of their regard for the
principle of time Constitution, in their decision on at
previous Bill (the Newington Vestries. Mill.) 'flier:
were very tender of the orders and prit..ileges of die'
House, and yet 124 of thew bad voted fur cutting oft
the privileges of 30,000 persons, not in the present
time alone, but to all posterity. Such was the deli-
cacy of the House with regard to the rights of the pa-
rishioners of Newington, and yet were they very tardy
and scrupulous in trenching upon the franchise ist the
Electors of Urathpounal, though cunt icted of gross

and corruption. It would be well, if
so careful as it always was of its
. those of the Crown, would always feel
u indisposed. to give up thus which belonged so the
subject.--(Hear, hear.)—He concluded by observing,
that, let the Hill take *hat shape It would, he, al-
though a Radical Reformer, would give it his support.
Mr. T. VOU HTENAY, adverting to some language
which had fidlen from the Honourable Member. said,
that when be mentioned the circumstance of the can-
didates paying the poor rates to qualify the elector,
and which the Honourable Member stated to have
come from a source false and infamous, lie did not
kwean to apply it to that Honourable ttentkman is par-
-ticular. He heard the fact, and he believed it to be
true. lie n-as nut in the habit of keeping company
With such persons as those who could have given
fake and infamous information, and lee threw back on
the Honourable Member that expression of sovereign
Contempt which he had so indiscreetly used.
Mr. HOBHUUSE said, that he .:Id th'.tik the mis-
representation was applied to the candidates and elec-
tors of Westminster; but he did not mean to apply
to the Honourable Uentleman himself the terms false
and infamous ; it was the source front which the
information came, told which be could not help think-
ing se.
Mr. COURTENAY explained.
Mr. HUME corroborated the statements of Mr.
llohlsouse with aspect to the expences of the West-
minster Election, the accounts of which he hail been
along with a gentleman of another parish, called upon
to audit by the Coustittee, on an election which termi-
nated in the return of Lord Cochrane and Sir Francis
Burdett. lie found all the items perfectly fair and
correct, on that and some subsequent occasions. He
stated that, the electors of Westminster would feel in•
suited by such an offer as to pay their poor rates.
Such things might have, indeed, been attempted in
the cause of the Uoyernment candidate. As to the
Bill, be was friendly to it, but wished its principle bad
been more popular.
Mr. 11. UURNEY thought the Bill might do some
good; but would have preferred the Bill as introduced
by the Noble Lord to that as amended by the Member
fur Yorkshire.
'1 he Order of the Day was then read ; the Report
was brought up by Mr. Brogden ; on the motion of
Mr.S. Wortley the Bill was then re-committed; in the
Committee several amendments were introduced ; and
the !louse having resumed, the report was received
and ordered to be taken into further consideration on
Friday next.—The Bill, as amended, was ordered to be
printed.
An flux. Meatnel gave notice of a motion for the
12th of April, for leave to brine in a Bill to regulate
Acceptances of Bills of Exchange.
Mr. SYKES presented a Petition from the Ship
Owners of Hull against any alteration of the duties
on deal.—The Petition was referred to the Committee
on Foreign Trade.
Mr. BEAUMONT presented a Petition from Own-
ers and Occupiers of Laud in Northumberland, calling
;he attention of :he House to the present distressed
state of the agricultural classes.—Ordered to lie on
the table.
Mr. It. WILBRAHANI gave notice, that on Thurs-
day he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to regu-
late the attendance of Jurors at Assizes.
The Iteprts of the Committee upon the Nova Scotia
Trade and New South Wales Duties' Bills were re-
ceived and the third readings fixed for to-morrow.
Mr. IaWI.BURN moved the Order of the Day for
the second reading of the African Company Abolition
Bill.
After a short conversation between Mr. Hume, Mr.
liouLsoars, and Mr. W. SMITH, the Bill was read a
second time and ordered to be committed to-morrow.
The Orders of the Day for the second readings of
the Attorneys' Fees (Ireland), and the Glass Duties'
Bills, were then read. Each went through a second
reading, anti was committed.—Reports ordered to be
received to-morrow.

HORSE TAX.
Mr. LCSHINCITON moved that the House do re-
solve itself ioto a Committee on the art imposing
a tax on horses employed for the purposes of has-

ba ofl
Mr. Cif !MEN urged the imperative necessity of
abolishine the tax, as he thongiit that every possible
relief ought to be afforded to the agricultural interest
in its present distressed state. Any principle was to
be deprecated, the tendency of Which was to add to
the romiber of those labourers who were receiving pa-
rochial relief. The tax in question was peculiarly
severe, inastrincli as it was unequally proporiocril.—
(Hear, hear.) --Besides, it was to be observed, that
the a4ricu:tural estimates were now ma& upon the
same trair as when the farmers were in a sate of pros-
perity. 1 his was not to be borne. lie thought,
that very large savings might be made which would
all'ord considerable relief to the agriculturist. He
tboogi:t. moreover, that litany substitutes might be
found for taxes which were found to be oppressive.—
iMiout; as he considered the Game Tax, still he should
prefer that that Tax should he raised from three to
tour Luineas, rather than that the Agriculturist should
L', ueLdied down and crushed as lie was. The Tax on
oreign 'fallow he likewise thought might be ratted
win three guineas to ten pounds per ton. fiesaw no
glaim that Russia had upon us for any peculiar indul-
gence. The Honourable Member concluded he num,-
ig, as an amendment, a' that it be au instruction to
the Committee to wake provision fur the repeal against
the Duty on Horses solely employed in husbandry."
Sir L. BURRELL supported the Amendment, and
said !te considered the tax as oppressive as it it had
ken impured on the cart, or the plough, or even on
the labourer himself.
A ;11einher. whose name we could nGt learn, said
te wished tl.e tux abolished. The rum the whole
duty spu horses brought into the Exchequer was very
trifling, being only -110,1:00/. annually, and it war
now pivpuscd to do away only a small part of that
sum. He would suggest a tax upon the transfers
of Bank Stock, as one that might very fairly be
Adopted.

p‘ant.Mr. LOCK lima thought that nothing could be
reprelsensil,:e than a measure which went to im-
pose a tax upon a man who was already ruined. It
appeared that Ministers were nut aware of the extent
of distress which prevailed among the agriculturists;
it would seem that they entertained doubts on the suh-
ject.•for he understood that they had sent persons
through Its; country to ascertain whether the represen-

THE ST T. AN.
lute- ,t and lot. He did not set the Hnoootinble wile of briber! an
Member for Taunton then in his place. He was tihiftillsoo, "bile
le,„P!' sorry for it, because it obliged him to do that whit% the ows Kea, end ti