The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-04-17 00:00:00

TOE STATESMAN:

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OP LORDS—WeDNIS DAT.
Their Lordships beard Counsel and evidence on After-
dice's Divorce Bill ; and, on the emotion of the LORD
CHANCELLOR, the evidence was ordered to be printed.
The Bishop of OXFORD presented petitions from Wind-
sor and Bath against the Catholic Claims.
Lord SALTOUN presented a petition from the I
slands of
of
Nevis in the West ladies, prayingor an i
Duties.
The Innkeepers Rates' Bill, and Extent in Aids' Bill,
were read a third time, end possed.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—WEDNESDAT.
Petitions against env further concessions to the Catholics
were presented by Sir .JOHN STEWART, from some Pro-
testants in a parish in the County of Tyrone ; by Viscount
BARNARD. from the Burgesses of Bandon; by Colonel
LESLIE, from some Protestests in the County of Wong-
and by Colonel O'NEIL from 18,024 Protestants in
the County of Antrim ; all were laid on the table.
Mr. T. ELMS presented three similar petitions from the
Skinners' Company, the Guild of Merchants in Dublin. and
from the Clergy and some others in a certain parish in the
County of Westmeath.
Sir H. PARNELL said he understood that the Hon. and
Learned Geatiernan had some time ago received for present-
ation to that House a petition from one of those Corporate
Bodies in Dublin, for the repeal of the Act of Union with
Ireland. He wished to take that opportunity of asking the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman what bad become of that
petition.
Mr. EI.LIS replied, that when notice had been given of a
motion tin the repeal of the Union, he had received a peti-
tion from tie Skinners' Company in support of that intended
motion ; bur, in consequence of the death of the Hon. MOTII•
her for Wiacheises (Mr. LUCIUS CONCANNON) who
gave that notice. the motion Who to the ground, he lead
she petition, not its he receive any instrin-
tions about it.—The petitions ware then ordered to lie on
the table.
Mr, B. COOPER presented a similar petition from the
Dana and Chapter of the Cathedral Church of the Holy and
Indivisible Trinity of Gloucester.
Mr.GRENFELL said, he did not wish then to anticipate
the discussions onthe g 1 question fixed for to-morrow ;
bet as he might not then have an opportunity of declaring
his sentiments. he would avail himself of the present occa-
sion. The longer he lived and the more he examined that
great question. the stronger was his conviction of the opi-
nion he formerly gave in favour of that vital measure.—
(Hear, hear.) The best security for the permanent estab-
lishment of the Protestant religion of this country, was to be
found in granting those concessions of the Catholics.—
( neer, hear.) On the other hand the withholding their un-
doubted rights from the Catholics would ultimately destroy
the well-being of Ireland. Hn expressed his surprise at
the quarter from which the petitions came, because' the
parties ought to be the teachers of more mild and liberwl opi-
nions.
sir T. LETHBRIDGE deprecated the warmth °Nielsen.,
He bed as strong an opinion as the Hon. Member, but it was
the other way. After the progress which that question bed
made in the House, he hoped the Clergy of the country to a
man would oppose it.
The petition was then ordered to be printed.
Similar petitions were presented by Lord HOTHAM,
from the Burgesses of Beverley. is Yorkshire ; by Lord
CURRY. from the Protestant inhabitants of two parishes in
the county of Fermanagh: and by a Member whose name we
could not learn. from the Dean anclehapter of the Cathedral
Church of St. Bride, and the Virgin Mary, in Chester.—
Laid on the table.
Mr. AGAR ELLIS presented a petition from the nobility,
gentry, and freeholders of the county of Kilkenny. of every
religious persuesion, in favour of I:reclaims of the Catholics.
—(Hear, hear.)—Ordered to he printed.
Sir WILLIAM GUISE pres soled a petition from the
woollen manufacturers of the county of Gloucester, against
the Warehousing Bill.—Laid on the table.
Lord GEORGE BERESFORD said he had to communi-
cate a Message from the King, that hie Majesty lied receiv-
ed the Address of that House respecting the erection of mo-
numents to the late Earl of St. Vincent and Lord Duncan,
a rid would give the necessary directions.
SCOTCII- LAWS AND IittETIIINKIRS.

Mr. HUME presented a petition Irons 110 persons,
members of a Society of Freethinkers in Edinburgh.—
TLe Society was organieed for the purpose of discussing
literary and philosophical subjects.--the doors were open
to all without payment—there were no fonds except vo•I
1-ntary contributions from some individuals to purchase
books for the formation of a small library. The Society
existed from the spring of 1820 to IS2i. and were not
aware that by their meeting they. had violated any law.
Among their books were 'Voltaire's Philosophical Dic-
tionary," Home's Essays," "Carlile's Republican,"
" Owen's Sketches on the Formation of Character," with
some others. While engaged in discussion on a Sunday,
thti Sheriff, with othei Magistrates, entered the room,
seized and carried away the books, and threw into pri-
set, some of the persons in the room, whom they belt: in
confinement till the Wednesday following, when they
v'ere discharged on bail. When be received the petition,
he wrote back to the person who sent it, to apply to the
law for redress, rather than to the House of Commons.
Ile received for answer that there was no complaint
against the Sheriff or those with him, who took away the
books, as the esil'enre of the Society was found to be
spinet the laws of Scotland. On receiving that answer
he referred to the 49th of George the Third, which was
the law of England on the subject, and he found that no
Magistrate in England could do as they did in Scotland.
Looking then to the laws of Scotland, he found that by
a law of Charles 11., declared in 1661, to read works
against the Trinity, was deemed blasphemy, and was
punished with death, and that law, be believed, was not
repealed. The petitioners did not complain of the con-
duct of the Magistrates, they said that as Vreethink•
ers,.no too of them arte.o on any religious opinion, but
alTdiffered in their illic*ssinia, and they were not, there-
fore, 'guilty.of blasphetey.. They prayed for the repeal
of the law,. to mails Acts to, discuss all subjects. They
did not endeavotir qfnienaibile opinions on others ; all
children were exelWe'tciind they did not see how tbey
off-nded. The ble)tiltratel ought not to intrude on them,
who did not iritrade themselves on the public. They
added, that at they did not go to Church, they V.auglit
they-could not be better employed than in meeting and
promoting good morals among themselves.
The LORD ADVOCATE said the petitions had two
otijects --firm they complained of the
for treatment th
er lion
re-
ceive,l, and secondly, they prayed au 'Mt
of the law. On the latter part he would not say
touch ; but if the Hon. Gentleman brought down a Bill
for that purpose he would meet him. With respect to
the treatment of them by the filstrates, the thw did
certainly justify it. By tin
f of William and Mary
the first offence iris confinement, the second was punish-
ed' by tine and confinement, and the third was punished
capitally. De waS made acquainted with the meetings
and discussions of the Society, and he took on himself
th'e responsibility of measures resorted to by the Sheriff
and Magi strat, a, who sae.] by his ad vitt% 'laving
learned'that the 'Society met in Einburgli, each Sunday,
at two o'clock, not to dismiss religious subjects, but to
exclaim against all r• ligion--ahat the oiscussions were
not confined to the Society, but that the room was opened
to all young persons in town—that even boys and slid.
dreg were admitted, he was astonished to find that such
things (mold be in Edinburgh, where time Christian re-
ligion was Infirmly established. On imitiiry the Sheriff
foetid thingsto be actuallyworse than they were reported.
Toe meetinL •always opened with the reading of an essay
denying the Christian religion and the u ility of prayer.
• Earth person beirig.allowed only ten minutes to speak.
and the ititeirtaptidn during that time being frequent, nu
one could oppose efftctoally the dangerous doctrines pro•
poolded, winch were numerous. Of the 200 persons in
Cie. Society when taken by the Sheriff, there was no
person higner than a gtooer. Tbe Magistrates of Edio.
burgh would* guilty of the grossest dereliction of duty,

if they suffered such a dangerous school to exist. Alt
the violence done was the taking of the essayist and of
two other members, and confining them two day', and
then admitting them to bail. He did not wirh to-carry
the proceedings farther, but if the House approved it,
he was prepared to bring the parties before a Jury.
Mr. lilolllCli wished to know if there were Jews in
Edinburgh, for if they were, they were obnoxious to the
same !cans, as they entertained worse opinions than those
Freethinking Philosophers. They oppo-ed the Christian
religion, and did not respect the Sunday. There was a
system of inquisition in that country than ever there was
even in Spain, which latter had not the power to indict
capital punishment.
The petition was then read, and ordered to he printed.
Petition 4 against the Cai:ilk Claims were presented
from the following places :—By Lord Charles Manners,
from the Clergy of Ely—by Col. Barry, from the town
of Enniscorthy—by Mr. Peel, frog the Provincial Synod
'of Glasgow—from the inhabiters of Oxford—the Pa-
rish of Bedford, in the County of %Vern ick.—the Arch-
deacon and Clergy of Gloucester. and froin several pa-
-1
riches in the County of Warwick—by Mr. ooulburn,
from the Vicar-General and Clergy of Elphin.

SCOTCH TOSTILLICRT LAWS.
Mr. CAMPBELL wished to ascertain from the Right
•Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what
his intention was with respect to allowing a drawback
on the stock in hand of spirits of the small distillers in

Scotland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that it was not his Intention to allow the late regulations
to come into play before the 10th of October, as by that
time the stock of spirits on hand might be disposed *E—
lle had some idea of giving the Scotch distiller the
same advantage as the Irish had, that, of warehousing
spirits without payment of duty. ,
SOMERSET PETITION.,
Sir THOMAS LETH (SRI DOE rose to present a Peti-
tion from the (aunty.of Somerset, witch limi been put
into his hands by an mdividoal of the name of Hant
(A latrgh,)—and which that person tok him was signed
by 300 Freeholders of the County. He felt it to be his
duty to present the Petition, though he could not by any
means concur in its allegations. At tie same time he
was called upon to declare, that his opniou still remain-
ed the same, that no measure had as set been produced
likely to produce that relief to which the Agricultural
interests of the empire were entitled to. Instead of pre-
senting the Petition whim be then did, he hail hoped
to have one of a ilifferentdeecription to offer. But at a
Meeting of the I'l:nutty where his Petition was produced,
an individual, qualified * every fascinating Power—
(Hear, and laughter)--apierred, and certainly carried
a Petition against him.
A conversation took plan between Mr. HO RHOUSE,
Mr. IV. WYNN and Mr. lAN KES, relative to the pro-
priety of the High Sheriff affixing his signature to the
Petition of a County Itleettig, the tenor of which we
could not exactly catch.
The Petition, complainirg of Agricultural Distress,
wail then laid on the table.
Lord PALMERSTON preented a Petition from the
Chancellor, Master and Sctolars of the University of
Cambridge, anint the Cathoic claims.
Mr. IVODEHOUSE presented a Petition from the
Dean and Prebendary of Norwich to the same effect.
FOREIGN PILICY.

• _ _
Cal. DAVIES was anxious to pot a question to the
Rt. Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affair% arising out of the
documents which were laid on the tulle, and the speech
delivered by the Right Hon. Centlernao himself. An ex-
planation was then given with regard ;a two points. The
'one, that of the blockade on the Spanith Main, and the
other with regard to any attack %Oki might be made by
France against those Spanish colonies which renounced
the allegiance of the mother (-wintry. He wished fur-
ther to understand what the policy of this country would
be in case of any aggression by Frame on those colonies
which had not as yet renounced theirallegiance. A large
French fleet was now in the West Indian seas ; and he
was solicitous to learn if any pledgt was received from
France that that armament should wt attack Cuba.
Mr. Secretary CANNING replied, in a very low and
indistinct tone. We understood hill to say, that be had
no further explanation to give, and that he could not
find any answer to the contingent anl problematical case
put by the Gallant Officer.
roantoll INLIsTneI4I ACT.
Lord ALTHORPE rose, pursuant to notice, to bring
on his motion for the repeal of the Foreign Enlistment
Act. He assured the House that he would trespass very
little upon their time. The subject was one which did
not require much debate, either for or against it, and the
arguments which be intended to produce might be nar-
rowed into a very little compass, indeed. 1., however, he
did not give some explanation, he might lay hims'elf
open to the misconstruction of sone who would suppose'
that his object was to involve the country in war. He
wished, in the first instance, unequivocally to declare
that he was a strong advocate for peace.—(Hear, hear.)
And having made that declaration, he was also willing
to avow, that he was tar from being indifferent to the suc-
cess of the Spanish cense, or how strongly he felt against
the violent and atrocious outrage against the liberties of
man. It was necessary for him to trespass for a few ini-
ontea on the House on matters not quite revelant to the
subject before the House. In the first place, he slid not
think that any man who really looked at the circum-
stances of the country, could say that they couhljustify a
war. His Majesty's Ministers bate declared, however._
that the country_ was competent to enter into a war, if
the necessity of the case left that alternative to it alone.
But every man must admit that war would he at present
to Britain the greatest evil that could he inflicted upon
it. Ha would even go further, and say, though great a
calamity it would be to Britain, that a war undertaken
now would be of little service to Spain On the contrary,
he feared that it would be rather detrimental, and unite
the French more strongly titan they were.—(Hear.) In
making the motion which lie then did, he was satisfied
he could show that a repeal of the Foreign Enlistment
Bill was consistent with the strictest principles of neutra-
lity. It might have been wise to have spoken of war at
au earlier period, on the first espreesion of hostile senti-
ments at crone. The country might have expressed its
honor at an aggression of the liberties of Spain, or even
gone the length of declaring an intention to support her
in case of an attack. At that time a declaration of war
might have been probably. prevested, and he felt com-
pelled to declare,that his Majesty's Ministers did not
consult the honour and dignity of this country or the
tranquillity of Europe. They certainly knew better
than tie could the feelings of the Allied Sovereigns, but
his Majesty's Ministers should not have confined them-
selves to mere representations of the interests of Spain.
'f bey should have put forward higher grounds. 'l' hey
should have appealed to the honour and dignity of their
stations; to the infamy which would exa attaeli to their
names, and to the disgrace with which they iv ould be
handed down to posterity. Ttat language should have
been used if the Sovereigns were indifferent to other sug-
gest:oils, and higher principles aught to have been ap-
pealed to, than apprat by the papers to bare been intro-
, dUced.--(Hear, hear.) If it erre necessary for hint to
prevent a friend in private life from committing any
crime, lie would not appeal oily to the interests of
the parties oppressed, but hr would attack hint on strong
I grounds of principle—of the lois of honour and eternal
infamy. His Majesty's Misisters sent forward nothing
but the Interests of the Alllesited neglected to appeal
to public law, to justice •or * morality. It was quite
clear that the only duty which a neutral State had to
perform, was to act with perfect impartiality between the
Belligerent Powers, If pertuisiou to one was given

• , .
to senbst troops in this country, it would be
At ♦iola•
tion of neutrality to the other. But if we give to both
parties equal right to do the same, we commit no wrong to
tither. The lion. Gent. (Mr. Canning) shook hit head in
dissent, but the principle which he advanced Was that to be
found in all the books of the Jurists. It was to be found in
" Grottos," in his chapter on Neutral States; and all the
illustrations of those authors were taken from ancient his
tory, that particular case was founded on a complaint made
that the Corinthians alone were allowed to enlist troops in
the territories of Athens, by *filch the neutrality of that
State was violated. if France became displeased at the re:
peal of the Bill, and went so far as to declare war stalest
the country, it would he a war of open Regression ; and be
trusted, however wise it would be for England hot wantouly
to engage In any contest, it was not jet sunk so low in spi-
rit or resources as to fear or submit to an unjust aggression.
If the Enlistment Act were a measure by which the neutra-
lity of the country was alone evinced, he would be glad to
inquire how was neutrality shown flow the Norman Coo
quest to the year IS19? lle would be glad of an answer
from thote who maintained that the continuance of the Act
was at this day necessary to show the preservation of a strict
neutrality. If, then, the repeal of this could not be strained
into a violation of neutrality, he would nest Inquire was
there any thing of a domestic nature to prevent it? When
the Bill was first passed, it was asked would you allow '
filers enlisted for a Foreign Power to be paraded in your.l
streets? That objection could have no force at present, as
one of the sic Acts rendered any military training illegal
without the license of Government. The repeal of that Act
was perfectly consistent with the true principles of liberty
in the country ; for it was one of the definitions of freedom
that every man should have a right to do that which was not
inimical to the community.—(hear.) The House would we-
collect that by the 9th and 22J George IL it was made fe-
lony for a British subject to sent, in a Foreign State. The
penalties were so severe as to render it a mere dead letter on
the statute book. • In 1519 it was intended.by the last Act
to mitigate the penalties of the former, and the fact was
changed from a felony to a misdemeanour. In moving for
the repeal of the Act of 1819, he was of course not to be
sonsidered as renewing the former and severer Act. The
motion he bad to make was, that all the clauses of that Act

be repealed.
Lord FOLKESTONE rose to second' the motion. He
was anxious to take the earliest opportunity afforded bins
of declaring his opinions on the speech of the Right lion.
Secretary for Foreign Affairs on a late night, and on the
papers which he submitted to the House. lie never
addressed the House on any occas'on without deploring
that language failed him to express Itie sentiments. But
if there ever was so (washes where he was at a loss for
terms to express his feelings it nos then, when he had to
declare his indignation at the utter degradation which the
papers reflected upon the country and that House; and
how much thecharacter of the ti 'don was comprouised
by all that passed at Verona. If he tittered in any re-
spect with the sentiments of his Noble Friend (Lord
Althorpe) on the expediency of war, he hoped teat it
would not appear a want of a courtesy when be seconded
his motion. If the House would allow hint to refer to the
speech of the Right Hun. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Can-
ning), there were sonic parts of it to which his cordial
assent was given. lie found in that part where it was
said if this country was to he neutral at all, it should pre-
serve the strictest and most honourable neutrality. Every
feeling of justice sanctioned the propriety of that conduct.
When the Right Hon. Gentleman spoke of the ties be-
tween England and Portugal, and stated that we were
bound to it by treaties of defensive alliance, but not of
offensive—that we were not bound to support it in any
quarrel of its owe seeking, be considered it nufair to elide
that public declaration—to go nut of the way almost to-do
su, for the purpose of telling the world ant France of the
weakness of Portugal. That feeling had pervaded the
whole of the transaction—a feeling not of strict neutra-
lity, bat of an evident leaning and partiality to the
interests on side. That feeling was displayed by the
too passages which the Right Hoooureble Gentleman
read on the former evening with so much confidence....
From the first there could be no ambiguity as to the part
which France meant to take. It was stated openly that
there were other views for the Army of Observation be-
sides the cordon sanittdre. But if the English Minister
had not been duped by the French diplomatists, he would
have construed the first establishment of this force into a
declaration of hostilities. Times were when the position
of this army on the frontiers of Spain would have called
forth a British armament into the Bay of Biscay to watch
its motions. The fact was, the Right Hon. Gentleman
and his colleagues were duped ; but if that was so, for
what purpose were so many thousands a-year paid to the
British Minister at Paris ?—(Hear.) Were our statesmen
so little versed in the arts of Courts, that they expected
the Frenchtwoald send us notice of their intention to in-
vade Spain ? Does the robber who means to pillage and
murder the passenger on the bigway, give forewarning
to his victim of his intentions ?—(Cheers,) The Right
Hon. Gentleman piqued himself on his " round unvar-
nished tale." Unfortunately the want of foresight and
political wisdom was too nakedly exposed. Such con-
duct he (Lcrd F.) could not consider otherwise titan as
disgraceful to the country, and he wished there was spi-
rit enough in this House to remove a man who would act
so, from the direction of the Councils of the country.—
He lid been hitherto alluding to the first despatch 'sent
by the Right lion. Gentleman to the British Minister
abroad, in which the line of policy which this country,
meant to pursue was disclosed. From that he would
pass to the last of the Right Honourable Gentleman's
productions, in which he stated, " That confiding in the
declarations of France that she had no views of eggran-
dizement, or of keeping Spain by military occupation,
his Majesty's Government had determined" upon acting
so and so. In this declaration he was sincere, or he was
nut. If he was sincere, he was made
,the dupe of the
French Minister; if be was not, be was making a dupe
of our Ministers abroad and of this House. Could he
doubt that France had views of aggrandizement when
Chateauhria,nd avowed that of the war with Spain
was to place the House of Bourbon, in that commanding
position which was first aimed at by Louis tbe Four-
teenth--(Hear, hear), and to give them such a controul
over Spain as would enable them to influence the affairs
of Europe.—(Hear.) But the Frenchman was too kees
to speak his mind so freely to this country—at least if
he-did so, that paper was not laid upon the table. The
declaration was made to France, end with a view of
making the quarrel a popular one. For however unpala
table a war undertaken with such views might be to dui
English nation, the placing it on grounds of national
aggrandizement was the best mode of gaining the sap
port of all Frenchmen. But what would be laid of this,
British Miaister, who, in the teeth of all these declara-
tions, still suffered himself to be duped; and shutting
his eyes, contented himself with expressing his hopes,
that the Frenchman had wither views of commit to.
wards Spain nor Portugal, or of carrying his interfere,
mice too far in the relations between the King of Splits
and the people—(Hear);—and this, too, at a time who,
he might have known that such views were entertained
as might he seen from perusing the papers on the table.'
Could the Right Hun. Gentleman be ignorant of the real
‘views of the French Government then, or was he dc.
ceiving the Home by feigning an acquaintance with
them ? There were passages in these papers which in ide
one's blood boil, and when be (Lord F.) read them at
home last night, he let thein drop from his hand tireiv)
times in indignation. It was clear from the very first
despatch to the Spanish Ambassador, that Ministers had
no intention of taking a manly part in the contest, but
th.tt, humbled and degraded, they bent, crouched, and
bowed down before the House of Bourbon, and that too
in the cause of liberty—a ranee in which England hd4 ever
made it its beast and glory to bleed.—(Cheers) Walnut
this enough to make one ashamed of their country, which
was brought thus low by the conduct of Ministers?
Throughout the whole of this affair there etas shown

~;

• 11, - •

(1 ''.

suecurnbing to France which was humiliating. The
Duke of Wellington was sent to Verona to lay before
Congress all the negotiations which bad passed with
France, and the answers of Spain respecting them; but'
France, oil her part, was never called upon to state •
whit steps she had taken. 'thus, it would be seen, that
the Court of Liandon sass interfering between the two
Powers, whilst it was not ashamed to tell the world that
France refused to makcit the confidant of the terms she
was asking. Why did we riot insist on France being more
explicit ? It was el-ar that we were afraid to do so. It
was a question which a child, who had received any
notions of diplomacy, worth! have asked. He (Lord F )
would not advert more particularly to these pipers, as Le
had not had time to make himself Master of them. Nei4
O'er was be prepared to say that this coantry should have
hastily hung out the show of war. lie was no advocate
for bullying, and did not approve of throwing out a me-
nace when there was no power to inflict the blow. Bat
why was this cottotry reduced to such a pass as to be un-
able, on such ao occasion, to take a becoming part?
'there was a thus when Lord Chatham said, " be would
be glad to see the Power is Enrupe that dared to tire a
cannon." This wAS also the cant of Ministers of the pre-
sent day to a very late period. That Noble Lord was son
et the bead of tiovernlrent, who was invested with the
illustrious Order of the Garter, " for having raised the
country to unevtinpleil greatness and power."--(hear,
bear, and a laugh.) In eight years after that same coon-
try. through the fault of those who directed its councils
—fur they alone were responsible Co Goo and the country
for the degree td good or evil which it possessed, found
itself obliged to submit to dishonour and disgrace, by
crouching before the House of Bourbon, and promoting
the eggrandizetrient of that house, in direct opposition to
the policy of out: ancestors—that system which was acted
upon in the reiipl of Queen Anne, which induced the
wars of Marlim rough, acid was the great principle of ac-
tion since the days of Louis the Fourteenth.—(Hear.)—
It was also in opposition to the efforts that we had our-
selves made, and by which that very debt was contracted,
which I!..ts UV" the greatest obstacle to our exertions.
For what was that which prevented 1111 from going to war.
to vindicate the liberties of Europe awl preserve the
safety of Euel ind? It was never denied that the Wt.
pendence of Spain upon France was essential to the LI-
lance of power in Europe. The Home had heard much
last night of she miserable state of Ireland; but it wan••
still of great importance to this country. The conquest
of Spain by France would afford facilities for fitting oat
armaments for the invasion of I reland, and the subjection
of the West Indies. It was therefore atasolutely esseutial
to the safety of England that Spain should be i ndcperot.
en; of France. This consideration placed the Right
lion. Gentleman's tonduct, in suffering himself to he'
duped, in a worse light. It AVMs alleged, in the ot'or
House, that the state of the debt prevented this country
from going to war. Let it he recollected, however, t at
this debt was contracted iu order to restore the family
of Bourbon to the throne of France.--(ilear,
Unless measures were taken to get rid of some part •of
this incubus, the French 4he allowed to control ail
the west of Europe. Ile (Lord F.) had been char red
with bro !cling systems of spoliation, hut he would I or.
severe in arguing that this debt would coil in °vertu in.
ing all the establishments and liberty of the country at
home, and neutralize the power of resisting enemies fr eta
abroad. Two years ago he gave notice of • motion un
this suhject, and be should continue to impress upon the
House, that paying the full interest of the debt was las
consiatent with all capabilities of national defence. 'lie
Noble Lord then alluded to the hopes which had b tin
held out to Spain that this country would adopt its eau ss.
He condemned the festive' at the City of London Tav tre
as a mockery of the distress of Spain. tie did not cha:
Ministers with this. because there were no t arties
but he blamed those Gentlemen who made mere pro: o-
lden' of sympathy there, and did nu more. Such condi et
was uncongenial to the spirit of Christian charity. I
though the Right Hon. Gentlemen did not make op en
professions of sympathy, yet be was to blame for leadi.
the House astray, au : inducing them to vote establis b.
meets under the one :mien of war, which they otherwi it:
would not grant. And if Ministers had not determin sit
upon going to war, they should reduce the heavy cat a-
blisliments of the country. -Since ttllZi the army h ut
been kept up on a war footing, and the existence of to
large a force was justified by the alleged necessity af
enabling this country to take an imposing part in 0 to
politics of Europe. Now, however, when a case presen t-
ell itself which demanded their interference, the Britis la
Government were wholly unable to take any part.- -
(Hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by again expres•
log his reprobation of the negaciations which bad bee a
carried on with France, in which he contended that tl e
honour of this Country had been committed, and its it
portance compromised by too much succumbing to th e
French Government.
Mr. AV. LAMB opposed the motion. He thought e
observations of the Noble Lord who seconded the ni
lion came with a bad grace from him, who had called o s
loudly before for the restoration of the Bourbons as, e
now exclaimed against them. lie hail complained of tl e
event of the National Debt, but there was no man
the House more answerable for it than himself, front tt e
active part which he had taken in driving this countr
into the last war with France. And although he o,
posed some of the subsequent acts of that war, yet whe a
be bad voted for setting it on foot, he was bound to to.. a
it with all its consequences. He (Mr. Lamb) would o;
ose the repeal of this Bill under any circumstances.- -
There were dines when, in a spirit of chivalry, erotic
were fitted out here in aid of the Palainate, and the Pr. -
%canaille of France and Holland ; but things were now 8
changed, and a pacific course appeared to him the most'
arise for this country to pursue. Besides, the prerogae
tive of war and peace belonged only to the Crown, and .
he did not wish to see it trenched upon. If this Bill I
were repealed, it would amount to an act of decided hos- t
tility unworthy the former act of this country.—(Hear.)
If we were to interfere at all, it should be done in a way•l
becoming a great nation. The amount of the debt coated •
' nut be ascribed to an unreformed Parliament, for the
fault had been, that Parliament had rather gone with the
people. than in opposition to their !visors. lie thought
that the people sometimes carried the expression of then'
sentiments on political subjects to excess. There were, .
however, times when the Parliament and the ramie act-
ed together, and the nation then out forth all its ener-
gies, as was the case in the late war in Spain. The
House ought not to proceed to legislate according to its
feelings, but upon that line which duty pointed our, and
pursue that with firmness, steadiness, and impartiality.
lie concurred with the sentiments of Ministeis entirely,
that neutrality was the course which was most seitable
to England on this occasion. Should war be unavoi::-
able, she had the spirit to undertake, and the means to
carry it on. But he saw no reason of policy that should
induce her to engage in the struggle. He denied that
the occuPatien of Spain by Frenth soldiers, was any
proof of a spirit of aggrandisemeAt on the part of France.
For all these reasons he should feel it his duty to resist
the !notion.
Lord FOLKESTONE said that the Honourable Gentle-
nine, in the course oT his observations, had stated that be
(Lord Folkestone) was is a peculiar warmer responsible
for the existence of a great port of the public de, t. lid
really did not understand upon what ground the Honour-
abls Member bad made such an assertion.
Mr. LAMB said that he remembered very well the Noble,
Lord, in the year 1803, to have made a very forcible speech
in favour 'et w .r, and expressed his opinion that the. resto-
ration of the Boothe!! dynasty should be made the sow qua
non in any neeochttion tot peace.
Lord FOLKESTONE said he was ready to admit that
tie had, on the occasion alluded to, stated that It *mild be

mit sotageous to Europe tl
be set up in France; bus
ripression of such an opi
• for the debt.
Dr. LUSHINGTON ss
span to abandon prirciples
maintained, there was no
could be made with more
just sat down. He did
must say that he was the
a person of great abilities
pletely fors•ken the sent
nuously advocated and be
his bitterest antngouista.
who would disc.urage dot
cause he supposed they p 1
were parties to such a dee
of him who would advanc
teat when all the strocitie
licy were laid open. the p
press their communion mil
and their indignation egg
were we now to couch an
had Casteaubriatni reduc
mouths of the people of
they to go in mourning fo
tha lion. Gent, wished to
nation in that 110.:se. TI
b Idly asserted that the re
be silent lest their opinic
perhaps, raped:tient that A
'ludic business, SKOPId us
that House, he trusted he
cessfut to neck the ti..nei
tae despots of Europe a
rage upon the country. '
the House. he cnicurrer
that the Bill might be IN
trallty. Tact such a me
as a MOM 111 l ly of our
ready to admit. lie he
a Foreign State had tto r
ter of a cocatry against
lation, end if a Foreign
uoureole Ilientlentao opp
tish Parliament had thlop
b., disposed to say that t
• 4.trzr any opinion upon
unless it could be shown
t silty. He shout I like
. stated fiat n lowing a Pe
. chase ships' st,tres ,rom
jecti to en:ist is the sere
r eu.ra:it). lin this
pi kelpie, but it preve
r %verity years lir iug
leg into a foreign I
a misdemeanour. lie
ell nations in her servic
la exist: nee,
to a foreigner, who 111
during a time of war In
it not the practice that
vies,. men, unit stores.
taem after the war had
parties toe same rights
br. nett of ti ideality. 9
feedlots tied interests a
-in Mar that this Bill
Spain, i.t order to prey,
1604 from asserting the
c..tisNuenee 7 That
head of spain, for it wt
try iiiving her assislancs
a. hisjud;.oeutmeet,
tai: country was net I
but in prittelple,titat he v
to war. A war should
should be able to my tl
eould not amid it withot
• rests. Ti:ere was no re'
• could escaps golog to w
go to war with greater
of *pelts was broken, as
to lea's us the task, ni
Ile did not deny that n
not oblige us to go to I
sae might very well say
IA conquered by the Fr
Great Britain to save
country was in a sittiat
Dr. Plill.Glllfilit
which a discussion ha
might be reserved for
to argue in favour of t
a view to the ancient
the law of nations. '
eluded by saving that
visable to repell thi
stances in Europe.
Mr. MARRY ATT
inconsistent with the I
man had a right to fa
Nome pursued commet
rushed to take up the
should be thrown in
were strong and urge
recollect, !hat we have
in his optuton wisely
neutrality if we wen
give an advantage to
peace came, the pro
pealing it.
Lord JOHN RUSS
had just sat dowmatit
uncut. Though he
with the principles of
because it it mild be in
Gent. would consent
he of use to no one,
would confer incalcul
for liberty, by allowti
Englishmen who mig
Learned Civilian (Dr
to show that this law
land, but the princil
Lis case was ititntersh
John) denied ; and b
and Lesrne I Friend,
who, on a tormer occ
in authority (sight I
lidity of any which
hrongbt forward to c
Ilun. Member for II
velem tbe at
itject;
anigitt be felt ie
to the dahterous tont
frequently the cause
very fortunate in the
eloquence of Mr. Wet
war, was on an ocessi
The two cases admit
undertaken to suppr
put forth his dove,
paid advocate of the
that he supported th
centi• ence on the s
which cunvi need Ilia
the rustily of telling
fall new c.ontideuce, t.
miens of the liberty
but as for Ilia part, In
f erinivion of Alinitite
• ii he did, he must
were to believe them
have acted as it apps
they. had done, he in
hat faith. If they
they sent out Lard t
Spantarde to agree t
t et time Fres.ch Aml
aa an lhdttrement to
that they "mild seer
the more easy rstovt

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