The Statesman.
London, England, 1824-02-07 00:00:00

TIIE STATESMAN

• - -
such papers before the Honse. Whether 1 shall or shall
not oppose the Noble Lord's motion, depends entirely
upon the case he makes out.
Lerd NUGENT said he should give notice of a motion
for some early flay, upon the conduct of his Majesty's 511-
, maters relating to the war in Spain, how far they had kept
' their professions of neutrality.
USURY LAWS.

Mr. S .rgeant ONSLOW postponed his motion on this
subject until Tuesday next.
BURIAL OF CATHOLICS IN IRELAND.
Sir J. NEWPORT moved for copies of all communica-
tions to the Lord Lieutenant respecting the Bnrial of Ro-
man C Itholics and Dissenters in the burial grounds of
Protestant Established Churches of Ireland, with the an-
swers thereto.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that it was always a matter of
regret to be obliged to withold any information which
might he deemed necessary to the elucidation of any sub.
ject. The House must be aware, however, that there were
cases when the disclosure of such information would be
productive of great evil, without any commensurate be-
nefit. Upon such occasions, it was the duty of those in
power never to grant any statements which bad been
made to them in confidence. He hoped that the candour
of the. Rt Hon. Bart. would induce him not to press his
motion. The papers were unnecessary to his own view,
and there were circumstances which would render their
production the source of the most serious inconvenience.
The Intention of the Hon. Baronet was to repeal the Act
of King William, prohibiting the interment of Catholics
and Dissenters in the Establishment burial-grounds.
Against the propriety of the repeal he had nothing to
say. It might or might not be proper, but lie was sure
that the communications to and from the Lord Lieutenant
would not enable the House any better to judge of the
propriety of such repeal. This, of all subjects, was one
upon which the production of doeittnents should be re-
fused. It was one on which the minds of men were easily
and strongly excited.—(Hear.) The popular feelings were
more liable to agitation upon the question of burial than
upon any other. —(flear, hear.) To call, therefore, on
Government to lay upon the table of the House communi-
cations of one party made in the pledge of confidence,
would be to provoke opposition on one side, and to raise
dissensions on questions which had been settled. Govern-
ment ought to stand in such a situation as to be absolved
from the necessity of committing a breach of trust, parti-
cularly when such a breach of trust would tend to the
exeitemunt of serious dissensions. There was a strong
feeling on this subject with both sides in Ireland, and be
I trusted the lion. Baronet would see the expediency of not
pressing his motion.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that if there were any impru-
dence in the case, it rested entirely with those episcopal
and ecclesiastical orders who had provoked the contest,
and who hail endeavoured to strip the people of Ireland of
their rights. The view he took of the case was warranted
by the late, and not the present Government of Ireland.
Daritte the time he held an official st ition in the Govern- I
meta. the qnestion was raised, and the view he now took
was sanctioned by the conduct of the Government then.
It 1% ai material that the matter should be brought before
the (louse. Upon the rites of interment the feelings of
the people in Ireland, and, indeed, throughout the globe,
were more alive than any other, Why, then, should
the episcopal orders be allowed to annoy and distress
them ? ilis object was not only to repeal the Act of
King IVilliain, but also to secure to the Roman Catho-
lics and Dissenters their rites of burial. He hoped tha
house would not refuse the information be desired, as
they would not be competent to discuss the subject
without it. He should certainly divide the house on the

motion.
Mr. (;RATTAN said, that a distinguished Judge had
grossly insulted the people of Ireland in one of his charges.
Ile doubted, however, the expediency of pressing the
motion to a division.
Mr. ABERCROMBIE said, that this was a question
which very deeply and warmly excite I the people of
Ireland. If it were possible in any other way than by
the production of the papers moved for to settle the ques-
tion, then he would concur with the Right lion. Gent.
But it dill not appear that this was possible: He would
state distinctly the grounds on which he would proceed if
the Eight Hon. Itaranet would persevere in his motion.
But the Right lion. Gentleman, the .Secretary for Ireland,
said that he believed by that passed in Ireland, the ques-
tion had been settled.
Mr. tiOULBURN said that he meant that the qnestion
was very likely settle.) in those reticular parishes to which
the documents now demanded referred, but be did not say
that the question was generally settled.
Mr. A BERCROMBY repeated that there was in Ire-
land the strongest feeling on that qaes'ion, and it was
necessary that it should be clearly and distinctly settled ;
if not, the consequent would be, as the Hon. Member for
the County of Wicklow slid, that the interment of the
dead would be an unfailing source of quarrels and riots.
Did the Right Ilan. Gentleman tell the House what pro-
gress the Irish Government had themselves made in putting
an end to the disputes on this question ? Or did hs say
that they bad any measures under delib,ration to settle
this question, and that the effect of the House's interfer-
ing' would ba t ► impede the progress of that measure?
But the Right lion. Gentleman said no such thing ; on the
contrary, what the Right Hon. Gentleman did say,
was calcWated to increase his (Mr. Ahereromby's) fears
as to the extent to which those feelings, already so
warmly excited, might go unless sopped in time. The
first question to be ascertained was, what was the practice
as to those burials; and the next was, what was the law. I
In order to have sufficient knowledge on these prints, the
House should be furnished with the fu:lest information on
the subject. Ile was restrained by his consideration for
persons who were in the Church—for he had many friends
members of the Church, from giving utterance to his
feelings on this question. (Hie side maintained that they
were only acting in conformity to the I sem while the other
party denied the existence of such laws. ,Others again were
of opinion, that if ever such laws did exist, they ought
riot to be enforced. Now lie contended, that unless the
Gov..rnment took on themselves to settle the difference,
arising out of this question, the House was baund to call
for the fullest information, and to bring them to a speedy
conclusion.
Mr. Secretary PEEL rose to observe that the Honour-
able Member for Wicklow (Mr. Grattan) might not proba-
bly be aware of the nature of the quesiion was in-
volved in the Right Hon. Baronet's motion, and lie might
therefore be taken by surprise. There were now two mo-
tions, one of which stood for the preceding day, and the
other was made that night. It would be, in his opinion,
better to separate those questions, one of which was of so
delicate a nature, and so well calculated to excite warm
feelings. The simple question before the home at pre-
sent was, whether certain papers were t 3 be produced.
His Right Hon. Friend founded his resistance to the Right
Honourable Baronet's motion on the grounds that the pa-
pers were not necessary, and that the production of tnem
might irritate the parties in Ireland. If, as his Right
Hon. Friend thought, the production of these papers
would be dangerous, would the house insist on them ? If
a grave question of law were to be decided, were these pa-
pers to be of any assistance? He would reserve for ano-
ther occasion the expression of his opinion on the main
question which the Right Honourable Baronet had in
contemplation by those papers, but he at present agreed
with his Right Hon. Friend that the production of them
would be attended with danger.
Mr. CALCRAF r said, that the course adopted by the
Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Waterford, was the
usual Parliamentary course of proceeding. Certain docu-
ments were deemed necessary to give the house informs-.

Lion on a subject which was to be brought undcr discits-
sh,n. The Right Hon. Gentleman on the other side ex-
pressed his opinion that the production of those docu-
ments would bt,at present, dangerous to the tranquiility of
Ireland, and on that ground resisted the motion. But
these papers, now required, were not at all secret docu-
ments, and the question was, whether they were to lie on
the table for the perusal and instruction of all the Mem-
, bars, or to be used privately by such Ilion. Memberss
as
happened to get possession of them: for it was easy for
every Hon. Member to get them. Were those papers then
to be confined solely to those individuals, and the house
generally to be deprived of them ? if the Government
were prepared to undertake the settlement of the differ-
ences that arose on this subject, he wonld acquiesce and
give up the present question to the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Gwilburn). That Right lion. Gentleman was no-
derstood to say, that by something that occurred in Ire-
land the question was settled, but subseipteltly lie ex-
plained that his assertion was confined to the particular
parishes to which the papers referred. If the Right lion.
Gentleman had shown that legislative measures were not
necessary, then, indeed, lie might resist the production of
the papers. He would advise the Right lion. Baronet, if
those documents were not willingly granted, to take 'the
sense of the house on his motion, and thereby let the
eople of Ireland see what sort of an Administration they
Lad—(Hear, and cheers). Was a sect—a degraded, sect
...not to he permitted to bury themselves—he meant their
Own members—in the tosnwr in which they were accus-
tomed ? If another such instance was to be found in the
whole world he desired the Right Hon. Gentle:nen to
name it.
The Honse then divided and the numbers were—
For the Motion 39—Against it —Majority against it 17
PA [LOCH! A L ASSESSMENTS (I ItgLAN D.)
Sir JOHN NEWPOICr moved that there he laid before
the house accounts of the several sums of money expended
in Ireland, by authority of vestries, in building parish
churches, and in payment of salaries of parish clerks,
&c. for the List twelve years, specifying the several
parishes and the amount of the several as,esstuents for each
year.
Mr. 6015LBURN said that be bad no objection to the
motion, but he submitted to the Right Hon. it ironet i I a
shorter period would not answer his object, as there would
be great difficulty in making out the accounts for so many
years. The number of accounts on their tube would be
equal to 500 multiplied by 12.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT was not aware of any dif iculty.
as the vestry-books were, or at least ougut to have been,
regularly kept, and the accounts passed at annual vestry
meetings. His object in asking for those accounts, was to
show how heavily and ilOWunrqu‘lly that tax pressed upon
the people of Ireland for the last 12 years.
His :notion was agreed to ; as was also another made by
'the Right Hon. Baronet for accounts for a similar periot
of all monies expended under the authority of the 21st of
George 11. chap, S. in repairing parish churches in Ireland,
in furnishing them with organs, stoves. sge.
CONSIABUL %RV ANL) INSUItitEC TION At
Mr. J. GRATTAN moved (A. returns of the total number
of Magistrates, Constables, and Subconstables appointed
under the Constabulary Act, passed in the Session of 1822,
specif)ing the several Counties and Baronies, distinguish-
ing those of the Catholic religion : specifying those that
were brought to trial for their conduct in the execution of
their duty or otherwise, with the result of such trial—also
specifying those that were confined, and the gaol in which
they were eontined, as well as those that were dismissed
from their offices.
Mr. 6oulatiußN said that he di I not well see how
he would be able to distinguish Catholics from Pro-
testants.
Mr. GRATTAN said that lie saw nn difficulty in mak-
ing the returns by making application to the County
Officers. It was of great importance to ascertain how
those appointments were wale, and what was the result of
the Act.
This motion was then agreed to, as was another made by
the same lion. Ale:ober for returns of the numbers and
names of person committed under the authority of the lu-
surrection Act in Ireland from Jan. 1823 to Jau. 152-1, spe-
cifying each county. stating the day of commitment, whe-
ther committed or discharged, and adding the number now
in conliiminent and in %emit gaol._

...
SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mated that
a Supply he granted to his Majesty.
Mr. HUME, on the Speaker's putting the question,
expressed a hope that no coition for a Sit3ply would
be made until the Estimates were first laid before tke
house.
Tue SPEAKER observed that the motion was one of
the rules of the house to vote Supplies generally to his Ma.
Jest,.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY said that lie hoped the Right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Excheytter would explain what
measures of finance he meant to adopt in ref-recce to the
arrangements alluded to in his Alajesty's Speech. This ex-
planation was necessary, as before the financial statement
various sp•cnlations would he going on in the meantime.
Some who mizlit by sonic means be acquainted with the
measures to he purstiel wo:ila take advantage of that know-
ledge to the ruin of others, who h hl not pa,sessed the sante
information. He wised, therefore, that the Right Hon.
lientlent in would (ix an early day fur the eunvenicoce of all
Hon. 'Members.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sail that
hi. intention was to inform the Hou•e of the measures he
would pursue. The form A mode of doing so, eas in a
Committee of Ways and Means, waich he would fix for
Monday, the 231 instant.
The motion was then a•gree.l to, and it was ordered that
the house do on Monday next resolve itself into a Commit-
tee to consider of sail Supply.
CHANCERY COURT.

On the motion of Mr J. WILLI:V.IS. returns or all
Om Causes beepl before the Master of the Rolls, trout
1817 to litlary Teed', 1523, were ord red to be 1.111 on the

table.
On the in nion of Mr. (4OUIIRURN it was resolerd that
a Committee he applintett to sit on the Courts of Is in
Ireland. in retereuee_to the Ist an i 2.1 George the Fourth,
chap. 53,

TREAD MILL.
On the Motion of Mr. Se retary PEEL it was ordered
list copies of the Correspondence between the office of
the Secretary of State for the Home Departin:nt and the
Visiting Magistrates of the gaols where tres.t.mills were
introduced, on the subject of the tread-mill, be Lid before
the House.
On the motion of Mr. GOULISUIOI a new Writ was or-
dered for the borough of Portarlington, in the room of ..Ir.
David Ricardo, deceased.
SLAVE TRADE.
Dr. LUSHINDION gave notice that on the ISt
lt
inst. be would move for leave to bring in a Dill for the
ConsOlidation of the Laws for the Abolition of the Slave
Trade.
On the motion of Sir FRANCIS OM M ANEY, returns of
the Number and Description of Persons triedland condemn-
ed for Piracy in the Island of Jamaica. from the Ist of
January to the Ist of March, 1823, were ordered to be laid
before the House.
Adjourned at six o'clock to Monday next.

WESTERN CIRCUIT.
Before Mr. Justice Burrough and Mr. Justice Richardson.
Southatnpt in—March 2, at Winchester.
Wilts.—March 3. at New Sarum.
Dorset—March 11, at Dorchester.
Devon—March 11, ■t Exeter.
Cornwall—March 20, at Launceston.
Somerset —March 2,5, at Taunton.