The Statesman.
London, England, 1810-03-15 00:00:00

Till?. STATESMAN

1.

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some ; but it, wonl4 not seem so to any who
considered, that since the French Revolution the
syateits of war hail been completely changed, and
the employment of artillery of the very first
consequence ; it was, indeed, owing to the expo.
dition and skill of their artillery, that the French
over Germans olnained the atlvanges they did. In
support of this opinion, he hail only to quote the
knout authority of the late Duke of Richmond.
The estimate, 4th respect to gunpowder, bad.
been objected to ; but the fact was, it was consi.
dend necessary to retain materials for making this
ankle, coal to ensure a supply for seven years to
the country: When he propelled this increase at
brat, there was only, a supply of two years stock
in hands. The Hon. Gentleman conrledeil, by es-
Vesting his hope, that the moneY already granted
"fur the worksat Dover would be sufficient fur their.
completion. • . - .
M. CA (.CRAFT repeated his former objec.
lions ; and after commenting on the gaunt expense
of Cumberland Muse, expressed his opinion that
the practice Of hiring hones by contract might and
•piyekt to he done away with altogether.
• Mr. SMITH sail it seemed to be the intention
r; Gowernmeal, like rick. men, .to lay in. a store
au every thing which might by any possibility .14
wanted; not,• like. turn of °economy, to' spy 10
Ciennelves, f' Can we by any possibility geoid ibis.
eitikence." [Mar hear n He rose chiefly
from his local knowledge. of ‘Voolwich, to make
some remarks nn the expencc and utility of the
works now carrying on there : 700,0001. ho ob.
served was the estimate • for ',tricots buildings car 7
.rying on ia that quartet. He could. positively
state, so fa: from this being. necessary, that the
Works there were a common jest Nike whole neigh.
bouvhood. He bail heard them ridiculed* within
,thas very walls of the arsenal, about which he
scarcely ever roile without obrerviag some new
piece of architecture. The land which lay on the
side of the Thames bad. been, he declared, pur-
thaeed byGrivernment at it such above ten times its
value ; and this purchase.was nut more to be con.
alms:tied than was the expenditure of 20,0001. on
a wharf. He said rhea much on a subject with
which he was locally acquainted, because he knew
those estimates were now (not, as formerly, con.
fined to the ilouse)`canvassed by the country.
He hoped every Member would also examine
. them, and expreasifis opinion on those with which•
he was' aripraintiii, ile.could not sit derNTI %it h.
out ai:i deolaring, that the bui:ding. at Wool-
, isichveera.partieulariy tibjettslafdisgust. •
.Mr, WARDLE rose, not . for; the purpose of
eanvasbingeach individual estimate., but of remark-
jog ou the eatire mass as it stood before him. lie
confessed.* had. sortie hope 'that a retrenchment
(aild have taken place, from the declaration of
.„.. opposite, last session, that
• .4 le a saving this year of .a million and
An irtensiflle diminution had now indeed
,tare ; but if any one took the trouble of
a,njuinq, would sec that it was but osteOsi-y
b saving hadAreetemaile only by using old*
. roves, ; but ;witty new estimate, a real di.
visienVon" by nu ireans solicited. Throughout
thn entire list, indeed, the utmost aff.-Yetation of
10080)4mo-was observable, Oren lo the .calcula-
tion of pounds, ahilJings, obi! pence. Uo hart
jeartieularly ,to condemn one heart,. which con.
• tacitly appeared in tit, vOrtloanee Estiinates,
even although it had been disapproved of, by a',
resoliition of the' Finance Committee, so far
back as .1707 ; Igo meant the bead denominated
• fq• thiprovided for." A close inquiry into those
. estimates watt view ressciatially'necessary, portico-
leriat'as pny account of the eKinmiliture was to be',
. refused hereafter. lie hoped, however, the day
;rhea the jlouso would have a full and fair at.'
coati* of the expenditure of every sum voted foe.
.the public service was not far distant. To shew
the.alfccted mieutriless of 'the present estimates, he
had..utily to, refer to two items, Which ho bad acei.
densally obverveti.,• The first was the estimate of Oho
ee'pheasait Cumberland Fort, in which apegay.wat
.seeleulaiod ;. and the neat was for a fortification at
Gmipart,,estimate4 at 36001. mid rixpence.[lleite]
This two really ao ludicrous, that it did hot de.
save a serious-comment. The tame of the Hun.
Gentleman fur the enortneus estimate of 6000 ar.
finery horses, was, that indeed they were neces-
sary
in .order to train and exercise the drivers !
This, surely, could .he done just as effectually by
. 100 horses. pear !) Last Session he hid moved fur
the gontingent expellees of thif Drivers Corps; and.
thongb Iris niotiois bad been agreed to, they had
nut as yet been laid upon the table. Ile had
heard they amounted to 6 or 70001. annual.
ly. The Waggon Contracts he had also eaves.
• "cal jl s disapprobation of; and
_it would be in. '
• ereditele, if the 'mount lad nut been taken from
the vslia,Ves of the years thumwlves, that the con.
• two, for *hips waggon tioisionfc.r firer years had
footnoted 674;0001. Comparing this year with
she former year in this catimate, a reduction .of
40,0001. did, (tinged, appear; but this was cum.
peesmed for in the; rimy. AteXixstitiskic, by na•od..
dition of • 30,0001. I,l'e was -informed, that if re-
, port had reaitheib the Ordnance, concerning these
• y •ry. horses, and that a person had.been in tonse-
q.neuce sent on an investigation, bat thathenever
had made his reports and there the, business was
all.iwed to end. complaint was, that many
. pf the horses had been taken from the public., be-
mii.-ss to be employed en the -farm of Mr. Wel.
ling, and sent duo u fur inspection on the days of
simmer. pear, hear!] estimates with re.
epee' to 1 relmol, h sa w that the contingencies of this
'1 rain, aad of other• corm, were included, though
the expellees of these other corps were after Wards
Introduced in the Army. Estimates. In the con.
tingenciet of ,the Irish A riplety,,between the
years 1808 and 1809, he obsersed a dilferenc.e
of
,b„.. 70001. the reason of which he coald• by no
/ovens' comprehend. There was slap anothec
circumstance which, he confessed,' perplewil
106 alcullttiOn ; it was, that there were in
Vivilion • nut 2,400 hrtillery.mctl, and in fog-
os,oool 411. d yet else year the eapencto
• of Ole In Ireland amounted tot half us '1
. much as the eapeneel cif the artillery in Eng-
..
hod, Ile shoi4il be glad to hear this aerounled
110 number of horses, too, in 'lreland, were
ite It the a 1,91.. 11'P:2 IPSI. ho Cpatl 1)M Of(frsj”d

i;• . .

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10,0001. was to be demanded for an increase of
them, yet he saw that the estimate for forage fur
this year was lessehan for last year, which ap-
peared unaccountable, if the number of horses
was the same. As long, however, as the head of
44 unprovided for" was allowed to remain in the
Estimates, any charge, either as to forage or any
• thing else, might be introduced, At Waltham
Abbey the sum of 101,0581, was estimated for
powder mills for four years. Now he could by
no means see the necessil of any such expence.
The French and Germans, it was well known,
used barns or any other temporary building for
the manufacture of powder ; and every body
knew 'what an effectual use was made of W—
ile admitted, indeed, that lie had hear the fo-
reign powder was
.not so good a! ours.—d [llear:
hear ri—lp these estimates it was the custom
to vote large sums under the -head of different
buildings ; and yet a sweeping cearge was made
for these afterwards, as for the " defence of the
country." ( Hear ! hear !) Various charges
were included under this bead, which bad been
made before under the head of depots, fortitica.
tions, &c. Sec. Fur four years, indeed, comment.
ing at l/eO7, 4,193,0001. had been voted for build-
lags, _repairs, &c. (" Ammunition included,"
from the Minitterial Bench.) No, said Mr. War-
inert for buildings and depOts ; next year, it would.
he. en- goubt in the same proportion. As to 'the
minuteness of, the Estimates, it signified very little
Wieetbeielbsy were minute or not, as any mistake
might easily be obeiated, so long as the
,head of
" Chlprovided for" was allowed to continue, -He
hoped these were the last Estimates in which such
an head would be allowed to be brought before
the House ; and he hoped also, that an account
of the expouleore of every sum voted at the Es-
timates would hereafter be produced. Ile was
sure there could be no difficulty in the computa-
tion, as it would be much easier to give an account
of how the money had been expended, than .to
make out an abstruse estimate in the beginning.
. • Mr. A. COOPER said, that the House were
not to understand by the term " unprovided for,"
that there was to be no account .given. Ile al.
1 lowed, that with respect to land purchased in the
neighbourhood of Woolwich, the price was ex-
orbitant, but it was extorted from the public ne.
eessity. The land was absolutely necessary for
the range that was required for the artillery. As to
the increase which the Hon. Gt. took notice of in the
corps of drivers, it proceeded from a mistake in the
estimate of last year, when the number was stated
at 5000, whereas it was really 5,600. The ex-
pence, however, had not been increased except hi
giving. increased allowances. The Honourable
Cent. appeared to him to confound the draught
horses for the artillery with the contract horses.
The contingencies of the artillery in Ireland in.
chided the contingencies of the horse artillery, the
corps of engineets, and ell other corps connected
with the Ottlnancee When, the Honourable
Gentleman complained of the expence of the pow.
der.mills at Waltham Abbey, he should have re-
collected the period of the American war, when
Government powder was proverbially , bad.—
Bad as it wao,• we were then entirely dependent
for a supplylupon the merchants. Even at the time
of Lord Nelson's celebrated victory, the'stock of
gunpowder was so small, that the Ordnance could
have hardly issued enough. for another battle of
the same sort, and were absolutely obliged for a
time to suspend their penes, in the expectation of
a scarcity. This was a fact, which it would have
been dangerous to the public service to have been
stated at that time; but the evil was now, in a
gritat measure, corrected. The Hen. Gent. had
spoken of the practice of the French to make the
powder in barns. If he would take the trouble to
examine the works at Waltham Abbey, he would
find that we also use, for that purpose, many build-
ings that resembled barns. Under the general head
of" the Defence of the Country," was included the
expence of building batteries and martello towers
along the coast. .And as to the sum voted far
building_ and repair tog depots, it had lately been
judged necessary to have a large quantity -of ar-
tillery and aromnait ion in depot, to guard against
iiitaeion,.or unforeseen contingency.
Mr. W. !eel ITH said, that as it was impossible
for (i (memo) on his side of the House to have
the same means of information on this subject as
the Gentlemen on the other, their objections must
coma from chat appeared on the face of the Es-
timates. It happened that he had made some ole.
servations respecting the works at Waltham Al).
bey, as he passed by them once or twice every
week. Ile was really astonished at hearing that
they cost 100,0001. fur there was nothing about
them which appeared to require such an expellee.
Ile was afraid that there was, in no instance,
a sufficient check on the expenditure ("he public
money ; and the public generally paid ten, twenty,
or even thirty per cost. more than indiiiduale,
for the settle work. Ile remembered, that when
those works at Waltham Abbey were going for.
, -weed, • bee _-w ere perpetually-' threatened ' .by 'his
workmen that they would leave bint,_ and
go to Waltham Abbey, where they would be sure'
to get whatever they chose to ask. When Go-
vernment also consented to give a sum of 12,0001.
for 45. acres of ground near Woolwich, they sub-
meted to what apecared to him a most extortion-
ate demand. Nuw he could not perceive any
reason for this. They might have either 'pur-
chased at a fairer price other ground nearly as
eligible ; or if this particular piece of ground was
necessary, there were means to which the public
might have recourse to purchase it at a fair and
reasonable price.- An expencu of 12,0001. had
also been incurred, in purchasing the lease of a
house to be fitted up fur the Secretary of the Ad-
miralty. This appeared also to be a profuse waste
of the Public money. The purchases of wood in
the last four years appeared enormous ; as did also
the money perpetually expended fur building store.
houses, and quarters for officers at Woolwich.
This anionnted to no; less than 422,0001 in the
four last years. l appeared to him that the leads
of the Orthiance had acted on no settled system,
but according to their own caprice, e hick wee
too much -indulged. He remembered thel e. hem
the late Duke 'of Rich Mend brought in 110 r lee
brated plan of fortification fur all England it was
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supported by Government and by so many gen'
tiemen in that House, that it was only by the
casting voice of the Speaker that the country was
Own saved from a most enormous burden ;
and he believed, that if the whole expence of the
Martello Towers had been stated to Parliament at
once, they would hardly have agreed to the present
extension of them. He was afraid that lir no
department of the Government was there a suffi-
ciently strict hand over the expenditure, and-that
in every item of the expenditure there was a con-
sideration of gain to some iedividual. In one
stance a man had been dismissed from an afire,
and yet received a pension of six or seven limultnel
a year, which was calculated on emoluments that
were at the time not se )posed to be fair. It was
high time that the country should now see that
the Pause did attend to public economy, and ,tot
merely to keep up the Government by the influ-
ence which contracts and jobs procured. The
110C100 who was allowed to defraud the country
in a small instance et ould be thus prevented from
giving informations against persons committing
great kbuscs. They would conceive themselves
parties concerned, and as a sort of cyrit de corps
would prevent them from detecting greater abuses.
Bethought, therefore, that too much publicity
could not be -given .10 every Atari of public ex-,
pegilitgreous vgbficity Ass the befit rc!ncdy for
abases.'
Mr. WELLESLEY PALE 'agreechwith the
Hon. Gentleman who spoke that tweneniye
slight abuses would lead to the• comiehsion of Vie
greatest. It appeared to hile,ffinwever, that tlut'
(lon. Gentles en had directed his animadversions
more against the'manner iu which the Ordnance
had been managed for many years than on the Es-
timates of the present year. As to the expenditure
whiCh took Wave on the works at Waltham-abbey,
it was in consequence of a survey, by which it
appeared that the supply of gunpowder was alto-
gether insufficient. The' average 'expenditure of
gunpdssaler in war, was from 50 to 60,000 barrels
yearly, whereas they possessed at that time in the
stores only 1.1,000 barrels, applicable to all man-
ner of service., both by sea and land. The battle
of the Ist of June alone expended 5000 barrels of
gunpowder. It was, therefore, necessary to in-
crea,4: the supply. Government then both called
upon the rserchants'f or a supply up to the extent,
of their powers, and also thought it their duty to
have powder-miNs of their own. In such an ex-
tretnity he thotieht it was not too much to expend
• 100,0001. for the defence of the country. The
works of Waltham Abbey, which at first preduced.
but 10,000 barrels annually, now produced
22,000 annually, of the best powder in Europe.
Ile felt it necessary to describe these works a little.
There had been introduced by Colonel toegreve
a very great improvement in the mode of dressing •
powder, which was now done by steam, 'and in a
much safer method thin formerly wax used. This
apparatus was of course expensive, and au ex-
pensive building was erected for the purpose.
There was a melting-house, in consequence of a
new discovery, for refining saltpetre. The corn-
ing-houses were expensive, being tilled with mill
machinery of the nicest mechanism. There had
been lately erected houses fur dressing powder at
Portsmouth and Plymouth, which were found of
great advantage to the navy. He altowed,.that
he had, in the erection of the works at Waltham
Abbey, directed Major Mencaster to proceed
.with the utmost expedition, and not to be stopped
by expence. This, however, •appeared to him to
be proper directions at the tinter and under. the
Icircumstances he had stated. Ho could not avoid
justifying the general arrangements of kisdearfriend
Lord Chatham, whom no one could ever haveserved-
under without loving hint. When his Lordship catre
into the Ordnance, he found ‘Voulwich without'
covering for stores, and it therefore became nem:
sary te erect many buildings. It had before that
time been always obse;veul, that the Ordnance r was
a mouth behind every other department when an
Expedition was preparing. .This was a sufficient
excuse fur remissness .in the other depart.
ments. Lord Chatham, however,. had, by his
different arrangements, corn mutely dune away
this reproach upon the Ordnance, and now a very
few daj s were sufficient to do every thing which de-
pended on the Ordnance. As much could be dune
at present in three dap, as would formerly oc-
cupy a month ; and no other department could
now say, 64 we are waiting fur the Ordnance."
As to tho wood that was purchased, he thought it
good economy to have in store a laige supply of
seasoned wood for the carriages of gulls. As to
the purchase of the ground at Woolwich, they
had in their stores above 17,000 ship-guns which
had nut been proved. The cylinder powder was
new, and was meth stronger than that e hick was
formerly in use; and therefore to. prove the guns,
a greater range was alisolutely necessary, and!
there was no other- ground that would answer
the purpose as well as that which was purchased.
—There had been also a heavy expence for
building a new -Academy fur Cadets, which was
absolutely necessary ; and a contagious fever,
which lately broke out in thc- old one, from their
being too much crowded, seemed like a thing
which )leaven had sent in confirmation of • the
propriety of Lord Chatham's conduct -in this re.
spect. The Right lion. Gentleman observed, that
much had been said on the subject of the Martell°
Towers. lie was at that time in the Ordnance De. •
pertinent, and could therefore give an account of
them. It would be recollected, that at: that time.
an invasion had been much talked_ of, and Col.
Cranford had spoken very much at large on that'.
subject. Mae)? Gentleman thotight 'extensive forth!
ficatiuns %cold be necessary ; others, that the;
coast ought to ho studded with Martell° Towers.
Nothing else was scarcely talked or thought of.
—Now, however, matters were changed, and
he thought invasion was next to being morally
i•neussilde. The enemy could not HOW put Out
two sail of the line-from the Straits of Gibraltar
to the Nordi Cape. Government wi-re,• how.
ever, at that time, by means of the clrinour,that"
was raised en. the score of -immediately-threatened
invasion, compelled, as it were, to build,,Mar,..
tell:, Towers:- they Were told it be doue ins.
mediately, and if not completed by .the Month
of June next (0110%14, it would be too 'tale.