The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-07-02 00:00:00

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n' daty, go*. aMt &boa to collect.
at the average tale for the tWO leetelitirdbsed of
at cent. These were the taxes they ought to re-
Maids cost so much for collectime. With regard
eland, the same exhorbitant rate wes app
Castors, and Excise
for collection. Sorely the House would not to
e the maharanee of each an abase. They ought to
Committees of that House epos title subject. Omit
oners were very good, hut by no means equal to Com-
es of that house for inquiry. They did net posse's
sme power. With regard to the Colonies, which
a source of expense, instead of revenue, be must
bat it would be far better that the department be.
ing to the Right Hon, Secretary for Woods and Po-
, should be conducted by the Commissariat, by
It kr:bald be done at so ranch less expense. He
4 nest so, to the dead weight, which he must say
unfairly managed. instead of filling op new
lid appointments from the Retired List. new ones were
ght forward, whilst the old remained a dead weight
'fon. Ht would take the liberty of proving what
ad asserted. by a reference to ate Lottery depart-
t, by which would be seen the improper persons
ten to pat into office as far as age went. Lookeug
he list of persons of first appointments. here be
ni as individual 47 years of age put into a first ap.
moment with a sultry of 2251. aear. Here, he was
it wool,' strike the House as it had struck him. that
ionger•perstar might have been selected from the
which would have, possessed a double edema.
t. Upon this list. however, Istioand the second se-
'tweet was a person of 37 veers of age; the third
the fourth 45 ; tie next 47; aid the following
s 21. 24, 69, 36, 46, 34 ; all of which he coo-
led, might have gone to reduce by so much the
d weight on the country. In the department of
Hawkers and Pedlars, and Hackney Coaches, the
e practice was visible. The appointments there
salaries of 331,1. a year. first appointments, were
and 62 yeses of age, and them went on from 26
To years, affording as lie thought a tolerable sam-
e( a desire rather to add than diminish the dead
ght. When the concerns of the Hank of England
re to be discussed before that House, lie undertook
flew that instead of three per cent. they received six.
ippeared that their military establishmen's were of a
cli larger extent on mermen of the state of Ireland;
I indeed in looking back it was toned that at ell
tee latterly this had been the case. arising. as he eon-
tied, from the sal-administration of the affairs
that country, and also from the absolute
akness they macre.% from all' the capital being taken
t of the country, which should there be employed for
support of the labouring classes.—(Hear, hear.)—
ere was se way, he was convinced, to bring about an
eetual reduction of taxation het the appointment of
,unnittees of that [louse thoroughly to examine into
s abuses in the mode of collecting the revenue, and
the a complete revision of our 6 system. From
pressing these sentiments he did not wish it to go
road that he took a gloomy view of the situation of
e country. The cultivators of the soil were in a state
considerable distress. and nothing would be more
rates' to them than a reduction of taxation; and re-
wding the present situation of ell the great interests of
e country, he thought this was the best time to look
to these matters. The talent, the industry, the know-
dge and science of the 'radon were increasing, and
mid enable them to pay eves greater than their re-
st hordes,. bat that formed no justificatioa for increas-
g them note; ray. lie was emavreeed the country would
s ralt in lemma% prosperity. set in consequace of
rtiovernmenta bat's tits of its bed one. He
abstain from further labial( up their time, as
sly opportunities wneld occur for addressing them
pAO On these stiliecte.; He had rather on the present
mission confined himself so what the Noble Marquess
*trite, the real Flosses Moister, bad thrown out
hen he first reposed the Badget to them la the early
set of the Sessiso.—(Hear.)
Mr. ELLICE contended that the result of the
baseells: of sbe Exchequer's stetemeot that evening
as, that there was not a Sinking Fund of more than
roe or two pillions. He believed they had all agreed
pus ens thing en this subject, which was. that a ser-
ies revenue alone, formed a Sinking Fund, and it fol
owed of course, that the West of the see, Tab mea-
tired by the amount of the other. The Hon.
seat into a detail of .the beads of the expenditure
old revenue to thew that the surplus was smaller thee
ire millions. All that he (M. E) congratulated the
lOW upon was, that nest year this system of delusion
was to end. From the gross mismanagement of the
Sinking Fund, he ttiaintaioed that the country suffer-
ed a loss of five millions. He had no doubt that the
inertia of the country were in a 6 iurithing state;
but gthey had a real Sinking Fond. it ought to be ap-
plied to the reduction of taxes. They had many yeti-
lions on their table to this effect. Every shilling that
was formerly paid to the public creditor was now paid
doubly, when every other species of property was de-
preciated one Half. Taking this view of the case, he
agreed with some of his Hon. Friends, that they ought
to look into this question with a view to a reduction of
the mnount of the patine debt by a fair commutation.
At present, the public creditor appeared in a very invi.
dioos point of view.
Mr. RICARDO observed, that the Right lion. Gen-
tleman opposite had laid girat stress upon the exist-
ence of the Slaking Fund to the amount of five mil-
lions this year, and had prouii,ed their. one of six
soillielne fur the year 1:.'24. if all went on as be anti-
cipated. But the only Sinking Food there could be
most be a surplus of revenue ; and looking at it in
this way, be contended t!•at there was but 1,400,0001.
The total amount of their revenue was 53,807,0001,;
ti,e total amount of ev, , was 51,839.0001,
leaving a surplus of Lit6s,ooo/. i:ot the Right lion.
Ilentlemac said they were to add the MAUL gained
by the reduction of the Fire per Cents. Allowing
that there appeared his. 2.600,000:. ; but, at the stow
time, he must say, that lie was totally at a loss to con•
cities upon what pretence lie took that in. That was
the amount of it according to his own statement ; but
let them look at the amount f l.eveoue paid into the
Exchequer, which was 51,200.0601. ; oat of that they
paid 5:1,609,000/. lea% he hail ori,:.inal:y &tetra,
betwixt one and two millions ut surplus only. The
Right lion. Gentleman made some allusion to the
I;sury Laws. and he certainly had not expected that
lie would add that this was not the time to alter those
absurd laws. In his opinion the prey se time fur such
an alteration was when the mirket rate of interest was
lower than the. legal rate. At whatever ratetlic Bank
lent money, it could not affect the market rate of itp
tercet long. He certainly was glad that they now
lest money at 4 per cent. ; but it was quite obvious
that the Rauh cueld not for any material period affect
the rats of interest of utoney. He did ant know what
to make of the case stated by the Right Hon Dottie-

Tilt ST,

pail 'et &Bettor Mn'gg 50004 more 'for an odite
beans* the Bask dheoasted at 4 per seat.
Mi..l. MARTIN regretted that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had sot milled their ettestiel to the de-
ficiency of the Consolidated Fund, which he !bought
was a subject of great Importance to the coanity.
Mr. HUME said, that in 1815, the permanent an-
nual public debt was 45 million% since which time it
bad become 49 millions. Instead of mincing this.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that next
year the annual permanent charge should be 31 mil-
Roam. The unfunded debt was also to be increased
5 millions. There was no prospect of a redaction as
all. He could not in any way see that there was asp'
surplus s but, on the contrary, that there was an la-
crosse of 5 millions at least. He should be glad is
see how this could be reconciled with the Right Hon. I
Gentleman's congratulation with respect to the state,
in which his operations bad placed the country. 11
Mr. LUSHINGTON said, be thought his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad distinctly
shewn pint we had a clear surplus revenue of between
font and five millions. If the Hon. Member for Port.'
arlington would make a fair deduction of the expendi-
ture from the Revenue, be would arrive at the exact,
sum of 4,961.0001. which was all that was stated as the
amount of the Sinking Fond. With respect to his Right
lion. Friend's moment of the settlement of the East
India Company's deist, be thought he was entitled to I
take credit toialtneeli for arranging a deist, which klub
existed for so mane years, and he might say that it
had been done with fairness and even liberality.—
lie repeated that, notwithstanding the cheer of the
Honourable and Learned Member for Wioebrlsea (Mr.
Brougham.) That Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
not seen the papers, or he might think with him, that
they were fully entitled to 1,300,000/. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Abingdon (Mr. Maberly) had complained of
the inefficiency of Commissioners of Ineuiry, and
thought Committers of that house preferable. He
assured the lion. Gentlemas that he thought that one
Commission of Inquiry was worth all the Committees
that had ever sat. By their aid the present Govern-
ment had done more in thelast five years than all the
other Governments that had preceded it for the last
century.—(Hear, bear.)—Their retrenchments and
improvements were particularly apparent is the Excise
and Customs Departments. With regard to another
part of the Hon. Member for Abingdon's speech, be
assured him that since the passing of the Superannu-
ation Act, his Majesty's Government had had an
eye to the necessity of appointing persons net too old
for office.—(Near.)
Mr. RICARDO and the CHANCILLOR of the RICOH.
QUER mutually explained.
Mr. CALCRAFT thought the Right Hon. Gent.
forgot in taking credit to himself for 500,0001. to be
paid by the Bast India Company, that. by
,receleing
that, we cancelled an account of 1,800,0001. which we
bad against them. He had, therefore, now 1,800,0001.
less in assets than at the consmesteement of the year.
But since that Company was to pay 500,0001.. that
must be deducted from the 1,800,0001., leaviag
1.300,0001., which we bad been entitled to receive.
but we should be so no longer.
A mutual explanation betwixt the CHANCELLOII of
the E'nuttctuna and Mr. CALCR•ET here took place
across the table,. which was inaudible in the Gallery.
kije: J. SMITH said, be bad always been friendly
to a Sinking Food, and to the Idea of keepliirip the
funds, because by that mode they would. End means
to lower the rate of interest. There weeetwo ways of
accomplishlog this desirable object—an honest and a
dishouest ; and the former he hoped would always be
preferred. The high price of the fonds advanced
public credit both at home and abroad, and tberefoie
condoced to that end. He could not think that the
agricultural distress would continue long. There was
a remedy for all these evils, and lie never knew an ar-
ticle of consumption to be cheap for a long time with-
out becoming suddenly exclusively dear. It was sot
therefore fair to urge against the Sinking the distress
of this portion of the empire.
Mr. BROUGHAM said it was with regret he oh-
served the novelty that attended the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's opening his budget on the present occasion.
He alluded to the want of what was • general conco-
mitant of this operation, of some country gentlemen or
other independent Member not connected with Go-
vernment to congratulate the Right Hon. Gentlemsa
and the House upon his successfal exertions. That
they had not this night ; for the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's great champion was the Hon. Secretary to the
Treasury. Hers at all events they had made a saving;
for they had turned their own trumpeters.—(A laugh.)
If they were to believe this impartial Secretary, there
never were such economical Ministers as those to
whom he himself belonged. First of all they bad done
mach by their fire years Committees. Next they bad
done more than a century of Ministers in the way of
saving the public money. All this was very well in
the way of paneFytic ; but in his opinion it would
have been better for the Hon. Secretary to have left
that vague mode of dealing with the question, anti
came to the pinch with his Hon. Friend the Member
for Abingdon. He . should be glad to know what
they had done. 'fie estimate of the Committee of
Il'inance, of 1817, was 25,100.0001. The Expenditure
last year was 26,600,0001. nearly, instead of be-'
ing less; and for this year there was only a reduction
of 800,00/. Awn last year's estimate. But what
were they to say of that reduction, when they knew
that provisions had come down twenty-five, and lie
might almost say fifty per cent.?—At this rate there
ought to be five millions of a reduction, instead of less
than one million. He could not, therefore. at all go
along with the able and very impartial panegyric given
by the Secretary of the Treasury to the First Lord and
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ile thought his
lion. Friend (Mr. Maberi.l) had distinctly poit.ted out
the principle upon w:lieli redactions in the pudic ex-
penditure should be made. Ile maintained that nu
superannuation allot ance should ever be given where
peleons were appointed to other lucrative others. The
observations of his lion. Friend on the subject of ap-
pointing persons ripe for superannnation to first ap-
pointments in public offices, were worthy of attention
I he lion. Secretary had been so desirous of conflicting
with lion. Members on his side of the house, that he
was not content with' those who had spoken, but
he must take notice of those who had n..t spokes!, but
had Merely cheered. He for one certainly did cheer
that'part of the Hon. Secretary's statement which re-
ferred to the East India Company's claim. His cheer,
and that of his friends, went to say that it was a vest

lion

LltUsort of elite'. *ilea the claimants consented to
.take Lado,ooOt. ow wf i. 000.41001. dsstasdrd. At
least he bad a richt to ay that thsy would bays been
'many overpaid if they had got lOs. in the pound.
The best way of supporting public credit was to 'pur-
sue a rigid and even parsimonious system of menu*.
Mr. C. SMITH said a few words, which Witli In•

audible Is the Haller?.
The irst Resolution was then pal anti carried.
On the second Resolution being pat.
Mr. P. GRENPRLL begged to call tbp attention.
the House to the "abject of the Debt of Austria to th
country. The last time it was mentioned In that
Hesse the Noble Marquess stated that he bad given
up hopes of reasverin4 it. He believed it was at pre-
sent 17 millions, and although he did not look fo►-
ward very sanguinely to the receipt of that money, be
. hoped to the Noble Marquess would Dot give up all
attempts to recover It. Why should not the build be
sold t.—they would, so doubt,ls this enterprising
country. lad purchasers, and say sum was better than

nothing.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY issued the
Hon. Member that the negotiation for a comprotni.s
of the debt in question was now in progress and with-
out pledging himself to any thing he had no hesitation
in saying that he had bepes of success. Whatever
sboold-be the result, however, the House would be en-

•owt It.
lEViPORT said, he hoped that the liquids-
I not be of the sante natant as the settlement

of dig East India Company's Debt.
On the Resolution that 200,0001. be granted fur the I
Lottery,
Mr. J. MARTIN opposed it, and called fur a
division.
Mr. HUME said, he hoped this, which had so long
been a bone of contention, would be given up.
After a few words from Mr. W. SMITH, the Commit-

tee divided....
For the Resolution, 74—Against it, 31—Majority is
favour of it, 40.
The remaining Resolutions were then agreed to;
the hoax resumed, and the tteport was ordered to be
received to.morrow.—The Chairman obtained leave to
sit again on Wedsesday.
•LICII BILL.
Mr. Secretary PEVA mo►ed the order of the
der foe the House going into a Committee on the

Alien Bill.
Mr. HOBHOUSE opposed the Speaker's leaving
the chair. In the early part of the Session he had
hoped that Ministers did not intend to propose the
continuance of this measure; and that ben was en-
couraged when he recollected who it was that bad
succeeded to the office of Secretary of State for the
Home Department. And when he beard that Mini&
ten really had such au intention, be Inadvertently
I bid out that whieb, upon reflection, be bad ft Se-
rious thought of carrying into effect. He alluded to
his threat of moving perpetual adjournments. He
had no vexatious opposition to offer to the Bill.-- 1
(Blesr..heari)—His only object was to discharge his
duty. The more he looked at the question, the more
be was satisfied that it would be considered with re-
soi
Wenn to th Out principles of Liberty, of 'MA the
BiR was gol roof an tension. It had, hosnver.
been ja ,in the first instance, solely oat the
fiatior if ilitritendif 'WOW ins. tipie smog mob.
squid renewal of it, it had ben thought incessant
to justify it on special.grounds ; but sow it was asked
by the Right Hon. Secretary eatirely as a measure of
confidence. It was true the Right Honourable Seen-
tary, when be had proposed the m , had alluded
to certain Continental principles not yet eradicated;
he had also attempted to beadle a little of the English
Law. He bed quoted Magas Charts; bat he bad
sot given the whole of Lord Coke's Commesteryupos
it. The Right Hon. Secretary bad promised that the
lower given by the Bill should be exercised with sats-
iteration, but there was no moderation in (Benet/nary
power. The law would, in itself. be an abase. The
Right Honourable Gentleman had also shaded to eh
responsibility; bat he would appeal to the POW.
of the Right Honorable Gentleman himself to sap
whether there was such a thing as ministerial reign-
sibility. It was a mere non-eatity. If, indeed, a
coalition of parties took place, a Minister might
incur some danger; bat then bad Man no real sob-
stantial responsibility since the Revolution. With-
out meaning any thing pommel to the Right Honour.
able Gentleman, and epeakiag of him only as • Mi-
nister of the Crown, be must say that he saw nothing
about the principles of the Right Hos. &edemas to
rectimmend a measure of this description to be adopted
merely on his responsibility. He would not entrust
so much power even to the great and illustrious Lord
Chatham. He did not admit the evil which had been
mentioned as a reason for passing the Bill; and it
was incumbent on it advocates to sbew the existence
of that evil. It had ben said also that the powers,
given by this Bill bad never been abused; but this
was • complete assumption. His illustrious predeces-
sor (Sir Samuel Routilly„) had proved many instances
of its abuse. It had been asserted too that the peo-
ple acquiesced in the measure. This he denied ; but,
U is were tens, this solitary reliance upon their opi-
nion came with • bad grace from the other side of the
house. The question as to the right of the King to
wall away Aliens by virtue of his prerogative, had
been completely set at rest by a former speech of a
Right Hon. Gentleman now the President of the Board
of Control. That Right Hon. Gentleman bad stated
an instance in the reign of Charles the Second, which
completely negatived the right of prerogative. That
King had not been able to send away a Frenchmaa
who had seduced his favourite mistress, and appeared
with her publicly at a Theatre. He bad been under)
the necessity of applyiag to the French King to re-
cal his subject. The lion. Member, after some other
observatious against the Bill, declared his iotention to
jive it every opposition. I
Mr. ROBINSON supported the Bill. lie denied
that it was inconsistent with the spirit of the Eng.
lish Constitution; and introduced in subserviency to
the wishes of foreign States. It was evident. from
the tenour of our ancient laws, that the curtaineot
of the general liberty of Alien was contemplated as
a probable circunastaoce. Neither could our charac-
ter for hospitality be at all affected by the present Bill.
No one could be called inhospitable who declined to
afford shelter. whore his doing so would embroil him
with hai neighbours. There was, however, neither
object or desire to put the Bill in force against those

, ..
_..
'who fled Inn thole new country. to atoll' pleilliblialifi!
It was the policy of tbiaentitry to nsaletaia the telt.'
doss of peace So bag as they amid bi nalatalsoi
with Unser. Oar former wan wee (dna needed/1r
'by the petstinal feelings of the Sorireigas ; hat now'
he fearedthere was a eeateit of pritaplee. It was i
Neatest Iwtweca arbitrary power on the one basil
(Cheers from the Oppealtion)--dad anqhslified ;m-
-ignon on the other.reheers from the Tenuity.
Benches.) He regretted that there eras each a con:
test; bit as It safer 'mutely did diet, our oilers mist,
be to ay..id coming into collided with either of the
contending parties. The power soli proposed was
not (leaved fns say oppressive or otter dad tandn.
The existence of a convulsion abroad, was a reason
for our being jealous of the descry to which we might
be exposed by the residence of foreigners In this ,min-
try; and, fur these reasons, be should certainly vote
for the Bill.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS (of Ligroin) said, that the
interest reflection had led him ti
.Olfer • this Bill his
determined, but most conschtatiots.opposition. In
the whole of the speech*s there was n• necessity undo
oat for the measure. It was merely sargested tint
some use might arise in which peen
.and ashy
might be disturbed by some individual. hat who. AI.
individual was, or what the fries was,. tinier le
the interruption might arise, did sot appear. learik..•
a question affectiog the people of Eagle:W. AB eilifi '
had studied Mega& Charts AWN. tbSO4bgglini( MO :
4itt pewee to stin4 an • A feet of. .010-nnerrYA•••. -' '- NI%
Aliens could be punished crimes whirls were puF 411 P.
aishable in Englishmen. Tit danger which justified'
ouch a meanin wes no I;nerNip existence. Mr.
Earkeesee drew a dagger when openting on this very
question, and- Ma object wee to show the horrors and
, co:sequence of not passiag tin Bill.. The peewit
Istate of peace bore an auslogy to the time when Ire.
Barks was an advaden, for the WO. Hp was deal- f.
ens of stating one sew isaridelt-seaus of liberal i
mind could say the provisions 6rlb.„ill fliftbe to be . I
enforced. If the cause of time Greeks abaskk fail, and 1
that wretched people be forced to leave thekcountry
for the pulriose of throwiag themselves on inr hog-.
pliable shores, and in England endeavour to eeglin
their lost country, weald the Oeveratient drive 'them
back to tare their threats to the knives and poipards
of the barbarost Turks ? . Could. it in that ease be
fairly argued teat thy were endeayourlng to injure
this country with our illy the Turk,. Sod that the De-
fender of the Faith wee hostile to tinfrieetls of the
Faith? He was convinced that did aenrament of
this country way sot reliant discretionary powers on
the mere sappoeidos that it would not be abased, sad
be gave his assest to the notion of hi. Honourable
Friend. :
Mr. H. BURNEY opposed ate Bill.
, ..
The house then divided—For the Committee 1427—
Against It, 60—Majority for the Bill. VS.
The house then wen into tilisi;drininto. '
On oar analogies to the (I ,;inefeetod the Mar-
quest of Lodi:toxin:tar °midi a menus. made by
Mr. DINUAIIf torment creel* Tin Senn Marquess
urged the Cestalittee I. go on; es thane* lily one
blank to fill up. .
Mr. P. MOORE eeasi the OW el ssisit ..
. 4471
portages, aad wished the 'to go tellot diet*
by clause, catego'rically." aa t* ~144 sate*
passed.
The Committee then diAr 'si..—/iitr repining pregvess
37—Against it, 14.1—Majority. 107.,
A second division d on the questing of lillisg
up the blank with two years :
For two years, 121—Against those words, 55-41a-
jority, 70.
On our re-admission to the gallery, the Committee
were diecessiog an amendment proposed• by kr.
Brougham, to Improve the preamble of the Hill. After
some conversation, the amendment was negatived with-
out a division. The house then resumed, and the Re-
port was ordered to be received on Friday.
Mr. WESTERN gave notice that be should Men.
on Wednesday. oorern; aesolutions on the State :Iran
Country and the Currency, si!tis a view to have tide
same printed for the use of the Members.—The hoses
adjourned at two o'clock.

LAIPI.VTELLIGENCIL

COURT OF KING'S BENCK.-JULY I.

JAYSS V. DODD.
The Plaintiff sought to recover back 12/. paid for a
violoncello which did not turn out to be a Cremona as
described. The witnesses for the plaintiff swore they
believed it was a German instrument. Those for the
defendant said it was an Italian instrument, not made
at Cremona, but at Florence. AU allowed it to be a
good instrument, and the Jury band a verdict for the
defendant.

THIL ICING V. ILVII.
This was an indictment against the defendant for a
libel on an attorney of this Court, containing g • I
dander of his character, calling him a miscreant, a
petty fogger, be. kc. The publication of the libel
was clearly proved.
The defendant. in a long addresa to the Jury, is
wlach be was repeatedly checked by the Court for ir-
regularity, in repeating his attacks on the proven-
' tor's character. cundacted his own defence.
The Jury, under the Learned Judge's directions,
immediately found him guilty.

$
L