The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

. .
twists. _ -
Mr. CURWEN explained. Hi) nbjeet was to case
the imposition of a Tax upoildltossisn Tallow. Ha dim-
claimed any wish for the Me%%moral of taxes from
the shoulders of .one class to those of another. •
Mr. N. CALVERT, referring to the observation of
the last, speaker, said, it anti a mistake to soppose that
a Tax upon any foreign commodity always affected the
consumers of that commodity. .
COL WOOD said, that if the Chancellor of, the. EX-
cheqn,r was desirous to remove the Tax upon Xoap and
Candles, and place it upon-Insporteil tallow, bissloing se4
would be considered a boon by Ida (OA Wratnii
7
tnents. The law regulating the present Tat' e
Excise Officers to visit their houses.
Mr. COKE wished to ask a question‘of *.Nobai'
Marquess respecting a Mr. Brown. wbo had.beets 1
pendeit from his situation lti the Aire eIP the. *e-Con• 1
ka
- 6r74. - a idea
' sol. [We could not hear tics nano I
dotted by the lion. Mosolur. The suspvitsis itokoa
Owe five yeaiieiaCe, sod be had never liciO:hiriittglit to
any trial. ,
The Marquess of LONDON DERRY said. thistle all'
cases of this description the Vice-Consul had the power
of removing those in whom lie did not place couthlonee i
though this power was snhject to the control of the'Fo.
reign Office. As the individual in question hail brought
the remark upon himself, he would state that the ci 7
cunistances attentlioe the suspension' of Mr. Rouen
undergone an investication in the Foreign (Mee, a
that the reasons stated for the suspension appeared
. ,
fectly satisfactory.
Mr. IC smiTit wished to know from fist Noble MOP.
quell whether lie hid alas comtnunicesloo.to make re•
specting the Austrisu Leisiis istoesting.stitA illtorest,li
21 millions. ' si /n

-"The Marquess of LONDONDERRY (as we ender.
stood), said that the correepondenee with the Austrian
Government upon the subject had been renewed, but
that he was not prepared at present to make any satis-
factory communication to the House.
Mr. K. SMITII then gave notice that he should on an
early day submit to the House a Resolution respecting
'this Loan.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN, referring to some observation
made by the Hon. Member fqr Aberdeen, was About to
remark upon souse subject connected wills the Navy &-
I tiiiiifei, *ben
The SPEAKER rose to order. The question he
said before the House was, not upon the Nary
Kid-
mates, hot whether he should leave the Chair in order
to the House going into a Committee of Ways and
Mea•sa.
1 Sir I.COFFIN explained.
Mr S. RICE wished to know whether the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer intensieJ to propose any remission
of the Irish-Window Tan. • • . . .
The CHANCELLOR of-theitSCHEQUOisaik
.

Ministers had already declared the extent to whirls Ms;
reduction of taxes could safely be brought. However he
begged to observe that the benefit of the Malt Tat Re-
peal would be extended to Ireland.
The motion " that the Speaker do leave the Clair"
'soothes agreed to : the Speaker left tbe.lamir, and the
Hens. brine in a Committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, then
'moved the nsu el annual vote for the 'fax upon Tobacco
and Snuff—Agreechto.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
:Armed the next item, in the usual annual vote for a
duty of 41. in the pound upon Pensions and Offices.
Mr. HUME rose and moved aeon ainendmeot, that the
RUM be altered to Ws. in the pound upon all Pensions
above 2110/.—(Cheers from the'Olopositson.)
Mr. TIERNEY thought notice shonlit have been
given of the intended amendment. There might be
many pensions to wide!" the proposed duty • might with
propriety attach, but the Hattie was quite
.hoprepared
for the metion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER aesnre.l
the lion. Member that, even if lie carried his motion
his object wonld not be gained, as there were many pen-
sions anti offices expressly exempted from the proposed
tax. The greater number of offices were excepted,
and the amendment could only affect the older ones.
He thought it was most improper to take the House by
surprise upon a motion hitherto regarded as a motion of
course.
Mr. CREEVEY said, they were then voting away
the public. tuunes, and although it 'nicht have been bet-
ter had his Hon. Friend "liven notice, be could not
adopt the doctrine of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Tierney.) There was .le :tbsolate necessity for giving
notice.

Mr. TIERNEY said he had not contented upon ;he
necessity of giving notice. He load only Inggestedthe
pros iety of observing courtesy and candour towards
political ..opponents.—(Cheers from tke Ministerial
woul.l have been considered unfair if the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had unexpectedly rouse
shown to that House and proposed a vote of only Zs. in
the pound. He trusted the Hon. Membet for Appleht.
(Mr. Creevey) was not offended. His object really eras
• that the House should know what it was about.
Mr. HUME denied that he had ever upon any oars-
shin shewn a disposition to take the House or any Mem-
ber by surprises lie therefore would withdraw his
-soinendment for the present ; hut he trusted the Right
lion. Gentleman would lay before. the House a return,
containing a list of the pensions Nominally affected by
the vote,-ilsol stating what were and what were not
lempty!, and the grounds of exemption. To enable tke
Kleist Hon. Bentknout to produce such a return, he
begged to withdraw his amendment, and to substitute
another, proposing the postponement of the vote.
'Doe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
hail not the least objection to inert the amendment upon
principle; butt the piesent was g aal's° which had been
ways agreed to since the reign of King William, and
he therefore trusted the Hon. Member would not impede
the conrse of the annual Hill.

31r. HENNA I, could see nothing unfair in the amend-
ment of his lion. Friend.. There could be no inconve-
nience whatever in the • postponement for a few days,
particularly as the delay would enalde this Right Hon.
Oentletuan to make out the necessary return. If the
vote were not stooped, in its present *Wipe, it woad be
said afterwards that any d's:ussion of the question as
WO late.
• The•CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be
hail merely stated in ettict, that the p t amendment
would give-mire Pensions sn advantage over others.
fir 40IfIc NEWPORT said lie could not see why the
vote aoitld not Jay slisped.sa as to reach all pensions, not-
withstatirli me the exemptions. The present vote %mold
of course form part of an Act of Parlistueol. He sup-
ported the illOC•011 for a postponement.

IP

field in hi* Cana a Paper, bring a
,iralty Office, containing among
person who had formerly received
fired from office as incapable of err-
• had then been appointed to an-
at. hear, from tile Opposition)—
,—(cheers from the Opposition)—
possession of a third office. The
Commissioner of Stamps, ■nd
.'enmions. The total of the Pen-
,viduAl was 1400/.—(Hear, hear,
t the Opposition.)—The name,
innecessartly to mention, was Ed-

said, the Hoooniable Member most
ig the Gentleman alluded to. Mr.
office of Under Secretary of State.
ied himself to the aecuraey of his
Wake' trient. He begged that the paper might be read by
4lre Clerk at the table.
The paper *as accordingly read by the Clerk; when
like Chairman (Mr. Brogden) observed that the total was
km SW..
' Idr• HUME said, that the third office for which Mr.
Hitttreceived 600/. a-year, had not the salary annexed
to/6 statement; hut he believed that six and six made
Wel , and that two added made fonrteen.—(A long.'',
anstebeers from the Opposition.)—He now begged to
,congratulate the House upon the specimen they had of
tim.year's estimates. He protested against the practice
i*htch was gaining ground of tarring Flat contradictions
to temente which were borne out by returns before the
144.' s.tileponceanlitedent.
upon the House to support his motion
pe
' e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated,
thaf•the pension alluded to was received by Mr. Hatton
Waite he-was a Commissioner of Stamps. The third of.
lee was a place of trust, though not of great exertion.
*it'd he might to observe that Mr. Flatten bad retired
tthe office of Undct Secretary of State without a
iota, lie (the Chancellor) could not consent to de•
y the peewit rote, as it world interfere with the polls.'
Iti
sr:erica phut he repeated his readiness to meet the
,quhsraitee of the amendment of the Hononrahle Member,
We *knife( brine it forward in the proper course.
I ',fr. TfERNEY said, • he really thought the Right
Mapi. Gentleman had not made out a case to imitify his
refusing the postponement. He hoped the dem), would
agved to; if not, he would divide with the Meinic,
Aberdeen, should he think proper .o take the sense
the House. It l'''
The Illarmteas sif LONDONDERRY said, the preset)*
question was referrable entirely to the ronvenience ni
rthb Douse. The present Amendment ass not 4 cotter.
Alt vehicle for imposing the tax in qu—scion, even it
afftr a regular discussion it should he thought }nor''
to impose it. There cool(' he co re.otou f.ir delaying a ,
Uill whirls had always passed as a matter of course educe
the reign of King William. The Amendment, if adopt,
'ed upon principle, might he placed upon a more com-
prehensive ground, and more conveniently for the ob-
ject of the Member for ,thertleen. It appeared to him
rhitt the best course 'could he to pass the Bill in its pre-'
sent state, and that done, it would still be open to the ,
Hon. Member to bring forward any remedy which he'
might think called for by the cirettunsttnees of the case:
Mr. liti.l4E wished for Information. The only plat
under consideration was, whether or not the resolutinc
should be postponed. This he contended might be dune
without inntry to the public service.
Mr. BENNET thought his Hon. Friend would di
better to follow his own judgment than to take the ad-
vice of the Noble Marquess. He objected to the Mil
alto netker. and had come there,.if be might so express
bitalls)f, tu.d it a lift as far es la in his power. No
aura sow kerstree • NA. --- •
_

•ow those whose

irtgans were essentially different, and dealt with an office
that might be very ill paid,in the same way as it dealt
with one who might be greatly over-paid. He therefore
wished to stop thr progress of the Bill, as he thought it
necessary that its provisions should come under the con-
sideration of the house, or be subjected to the enquiries
of a Committee. He now begged to move that the Chair-
man should report progress.
Mr. BROUDEN then put the question that it be now
withdrawn.
Mr. OWNER rose to contradict the statement of the
Hon. Member; that Mr. Hatton had belonged to the
Admiralty and retired from it.
Mr. ileME.—'• 1 said he was returned from it."
Mr. CROKEK.—IIe never belonged to the Admiralty-
office, And therefore his lion. Friend (Sir John Osborne)
was correct in interrupting the Hon. 31ewbrr when he
was stating that which was not true.—(hear.)—The
reason why Mr. Hatton was returned from the Admi•
ralty was this—that in IS I I an Act passed, by which all
pensions to persons charged upon old stores were trans-
ferred to the Navy Estimates, and it was its:that way,
and not otherwise, that Mr. Hatton became connected
with the Admiralty.—(Hear.)
Mr. 81i.017611.131 said that he bad one observation
j to make—

.---.—
Mr. 111(06 DEN. —4. Order, ortler,l mmot interrupt the
Honourable Member, there is a motiou before the Com-
mittee."

51r. BROUGHAM.—" With greet submission to you,
Sir, I have es ranch right to speak upon that question as
any other Alember of the Committee. I was about to
reply upon au obsen'ation of an lion. Member who
spoke fwd."
31r. 111106 DES.—" But the question before the Com-
mittee is upon withdrawing a motion; and I did expect
alien that lion. Member stood up, that he bad stnue-
thing to offer noon it."—(Near.)
'Flu' question. was then put upon withdrawing thk mo-
tion am carried.

Mr. BROUGHAM then said, being now permitted to
speak, he would begin with an apology for the time
which the discussion in which he was concerned took
1111. He was a little snrprised that an Hoc Menihrt
(Mr..Crolter) should state that another Hoe. Member
(Sir J. Osborne) was correct in interrupting the Hon.
Member fol. Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) and setting him
right, though such an attempt at setting de la was never
seen before;. whilst it was as dray as day tnat the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen was substantially right, and that
the lion. :Umber who interrupted him was as substan-
tiallr wrong.—(Hear.)—lle had said his lion. Friend
was substantially correct, for when his calculations were
borne out:it mattered little whether he was correct in
saying that this person belonged to the Admiralty or not.
Hut eveh in that particular he was right, for lie not wily
went upon the authority of a paper signed "Jetties
Dver, Chief Clerk," and " Imshington," to show
th.at it came from the Admiralty Office, but the very cir-
entnsiener of Mr. Hatton's being Paymaster of Widows'
Pensions, proved that he was connected with alit public
dopartittent.-cHearA
Mr. CHOKER sail the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was not quite correct in assumine that the management
of the Widows' Pensions was in the Admiralty Ohre.
These funds were managed by • particular hotly called
the " Court of Assistance of the Widows' Charities."
and with these the Admiralty had no concern 'stutterer.
Mr. Hl MF..—" Hut l will show that this fond is sob-
ject to the Admiralty; for in the Navy Estimates I find
an iteth of 1115,000 f. for the funds of the charity of sea-
opens' widows, and further, this is 70,UU0(. more titan
was charged before."—(Hear, hear.)
Sir AL W..JODLEY 'observed, that the Court of As-
sistance met at the Admiralty Office.—(Hear.)—The sa-
lary ante Paymaster of this charity, fiveyrars ago. was
raised (rolls 200/ to MO!.
Mr. ELLICE said, t at it would be more expedient

. •T , ST A TES* A
er's instalment was always paid in Mean his as . Mr. IiVAIVMMO hr he
NW-the Right Hon. Root, willed skiff . , Return froi theltelenir
Mr, TIERNEY said, be really had oat meeglrdirith other naives that of a poi
die Right Hon. Gentleman or his csicnlations for six 204 u-year ; had retired
Years. He could not understand them, and be belleird vice, noon a pension ; h
here were not two or three-Metiihers of the litowso Who 'Mier office;—(hear, hear
lid.—(llear,hear.)—The aceonnts ought to be madebola Mired from that,—;
From the explanation just given, It appeder- add was now in the pose
eel that it was a permanent plan not to realise the bin - tile last others were, a
ing Fund. , . -.llliyinaster of Widow's Pi
31r. BRIGHT said, be understood from the Moist ns paid to this indivi
able Member (Mi. Emsren) that he proposed to seeCtio- I name. name, from
rate the repeal of a tax upon soap and candles to reojst ich he had no wish un:
it upon tallow. Ile. (Mr. Bright) was willing to- takP ward Finch flattop.
off taxes, but he would not Consent to the mere reMoyal Sir J. ()SW/BNB said
of them. All the interests of the country were, be be mistaken respecting tl
thought, alike oppressed; though it bad become the Hatton had filled the offii
fashion to claim a monopoly of distress for the agricul- Mr. HUM It pledged I