The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-10-21 00:00:00

NEW BOROUGH GAOL.

The next subject on the paper was the report of the finance
committee on the gaol. This report embodied the resolution 1
of the committee passed on the 14th instant, of which the
following is a copy :—" The committee having resumed the
consideration of their report on the want of accommodation
in the present borough gaol, standing for consideration of
the council, at a special meeting on Wednesday last, it was
resolved—' That the committee feel that the council are placed
between two difficulties, being compelled to elect between
great additions to the present prison, and the erection of an
entirely new gaol. That the committee submit their opinion,
that the latter course is the most eligible and economical ;
that the committee are anxious that the council should carry
out the object with the funds of the corporation, though the
committee cannot bold out any clear prospect of the council
being able to do so ; nevertheless, the committee entertain
the hope that a strict and constant system of economy may
• enable the council to save the public from the course provided
by law of raising money by a gaol rate upon the inhabitants."'
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE, in moving that the resolution of
the Finance Committee be confirmed, commenced by re-
ferring to the inadequacy of the present gaol for the accom-
modation of the prisoners furnished by the borough. It was
built in 1785, when the town contained only 70,000 to 80,000
souls, but which population, by the accession of the out-
townships, and other causes, had swelled to 300,000. The
committee had long been aware that the system under which
the gaol had been constructed was not approved in the pre-
sent day, and that it did not meet the requirements of the
recent act of parliament ; and notwithstanding they had an
excellent and able governor it was difficult to keep up the
proper degree of discipline. The number of prisoners in
August last was 859, whilst in 1838 it was only 438. so that
it bad nearly doubled in three years. They ought to have
Accommodation for 1000. The council had been in the habit
of contracting with the county magistrates for the reception
of their prisoners in Kirkdale, but that was now denied to
then, and Sir James Graham had prevented them making
the alterations which they had contemplated. The question
now was, should they enlarge the existing gaol or build a new
one. There was land on each side of it that might be ap-
propriated to the erection of new wings, the expense of
which was estimated at £70,000 ; but it was hazardous to lay
out so much money on that project under present circum-
stances. Some persons objected to the locality of the gaol
so near to a large number of warehouses, where there had
recently been a calamitous fire. The question had also
been asked, could nothing be devised to lessen the
number and the expense of juvenile offenders? Mr.
Birkett had recommended a hulk, and others a re-
formatory ; but it should be remembered that the coun-
cil had not to legislate, nor must they speculate, on any
future changes of the law ; they must obey the law as they
found it. They were told that there was a great expense
attendant upon hulks, and strong objections to them, and
that they could not have them without a gaol establishment—
such as keeper, chaplain, &c. &c. With regard to a reforma-
tory, there were very few juvenile offenders, compared with
the great bulk of the criminals ; and, looking at the state of
the surplus funds of the corporation, the committee would
not be justified in entering upon such an expenditure, though
they were much indebted to Mr. Rushton for bringing the
matter forward, and his having done so might be productive
of much good elsewhere, though it could not be received
there. By the erection of a new gaol, it was expected that
an improved discipline might be adopted, which would lead
to greater morality, and not, as Major Jebb observed, leave
Liverpool to incur the imputation of keeping a school for
crime. There might be differences of opinion as to the in-
troduction of the silent or separate system, but the construc-
tion of such a gaol as he recommended would enable the
council to adopt either the one or the other. The new gaol,
he calculated, might be built for £150,000, including the cost
of the land. The council, in aid of this, would give not only
the present gaol, but the vacant land belonging to them on
both sides of it. This, he believed, was somewhere about
forty thousand square yards. It was difficult to give an exact
estimate of its value, but Mr. Okill was of opinion that it was
worth, with the materials of the old gaol, about £BO,OOO.
This would leave £70,000, which, he calculated, would be
much about the cost of the proposed additions to the old
gaol. It would be some time before the £BO,OOO would be
available, as the materials could not be sold until the new

gaol should have been built. From the interest of the
£70,000 to be provided he would be entitled to deduct the
extra expense of maintaining prisoners in the county gaol ;
and he thought he should also be entitled to take into calcu-
lation—though he would not lay much stress on this—the
salaries of the superintendents of the enlarged portions of the
gaol. Mr. Lawrence then entered into a calculation to show
that all that would have to be provided annually would be
from £2,100 to £2,800. There were two modes of raising
this sum—one by a gaol rate, and the other by a grant from
the surplus fund of the corporation. He was disinclined to
lay a rate in the present position of the poor people of the
town. On the other hand, if the money were to be paid by
the corporation, the strictest economy in the council would
be required,( as without this, it would be impossible to im-
prove the streets and public buildings, or to assist the
charities with further benefactions. He called on the council
to (acquiesce in the resolution of the Finance Committee,
which he had proposed, though he had no doubt they would
rather spend their money in the establishment of the town,
or in the promotion of religious education.
Sir THOMAS BRANCKER seconded the motion.
Mr. EVANS would not oppose the building of the gaol, but
thought, after the exposition they had had of their finances,
they ought not to resort to the corporate funds, but the money
should be raised by this great and opulent town. This was
one of the opportunities on which that might be legitimately
done. Were they to run the corporate ship aground and get
into a state of bankruptcy, or ought the gaol to be built by
the owners of cottages and others who had a Axed property
in the town ? Were they to hamper the corporation, so that,
however urgent the case may be, they should be prevented
laying out one or two thousand pounds when it might be
wanted. The town could bear the tax very well, and it should
be remembered that the whole sum would not have to be laid
in one year.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—No ; twenty-eight years.
The MAYOR.—Thirty years.
Mr. EVANS.—Why not then levy the principal at once
over a considerable portion of the time. In every other re-
spect he approved of the resolution.
Mr. BtaxeTT was not surprised at Mr. Evans's remarks
relative to the owners of cottage property, but he was with
regard to those about opulent men, who were the very peo-
ple that would pay nothing under such a rate. What would
Mr. Evans pay ? He was an opulent man, but he would ab-
solutely pay nothing. The merchants and other opulent
men, for the most part, lived out of the town and would es-
cape the rate altogether. Let him contrast the liberality of
this Council with that of the old unreformed Council. The
latter erected the gaol in 1785 at its own expense. Did Mr.
Evans oppose the payment of £150,000 for the Assize Courts,
the costs of which ought more properly to have been defrayed
by the county ; or was anything said the other day against
the grant of £lO,OOO for more beautiful stone? It was not
fair to levy a rate on, the tradespeople and poorer inhabitants
merely because they bad an opportunity of doing it legally.
They should, on the contrary, take money from the corpora-
tion only for purposes which they had a legitimate right to
apply it to.
The MAYOR.—It's too late to go back.
Mr. Braurr.—No ; for so long as I have a seat here I
shall advocate the one and oppose the other. The opulent
were the very parties who would escape. Had he had no-
tice he would have taken out the whole assessment of mer-
chants and tradesmen, and compared them. Sir James
Graham, he contended, was wrong in forcing the erection
of a new gaol upon the town. It had not vet been decided
that the separate system of confinement was a good one.
The King of Prussia had lately sent to America for evidence
on that subject, and the report made to him was against it.
He (Mr. Birkett) was against the system being forced
upon them, but as it was -so, he was for a new gaol in
preference to the enlargement of the old oue, but he would
pay for it by the corporation.
Mr. BOLTON said the cost of each separate cell would be
£125, or £7 per head per annum. There could be no doubt
that the separate system would effect an improvement in the
morals of the criminals. The erection of a new gaol was
indispensable, but there were no surplus funds at the com-
mand of the corporation--(hear, hear)—and nothing was left
them but to levy a gaol-rate. It might be said they should
do as they did in 1785, but that was a time when all was
prosperous and land cheap.
Mr. AIKIN, after stating that there were more re-commit-
tals from Liverpool than from any other place, in proportion
to its size and population, complained that the juvenile pri-
soners in the borough gaol, instead of being kept on bread
and water, were daintily fed on excellent lobscouse, with
onions and pepper in it to create an appetite. The smell
alone had that effect with the Gaol Committee. He tasted
it once with the Mayor—
The MAYOR.—And very good it was.
Mr. AIKIN went there also once with his children, and
his little boy, having tasted it, said, " Papa, this is much
better than anything we get at home." These were induce-
ments to crime, and they should seek power to adopt a dif-
ferent treatment, and to make the gaol really a place of pu-
nishment. With regard to a hulk, he observed that masters
of vessels might not like to take gaol-birds on board their
ships, but young vagrants might be educated there, which
would prevent their falling into crime; criminals of tender
age might be taught a trade at a land establishment at Hoy_
lake, and then they would be gladly received in the colonies.
Some few
a wing tors in the present gaol, he remarked, occu-
piedcriminals. thatßy
would accommodate an immense number of
classify the relieving the prison of these, they might
for the Home felonse in the manner required by the Secretary
build so large Pretment, and it would not be requisite to
dated by addi:g9artsaa. The boys, too, might be accommo-
meother story to the plan of the proposed
new bridewell.
auenoansidered that the parish, town, and
corporation. were
thsey had a common interest—and
what came from he one—they
other. He recommended that aof the one came also from the
eausidtae_ the subject should be sub-
mitted to the further
01? of the Finance Commit-
and credit of the town, e a plan for the economy
Mr. BUSHELL agreed with souse of Mr Aikin's
tions, and would like to see them carried sugges -
into effect, butif
they had been likely to be advantageous they would, before
gavermasent They were
this, have been adopted by the
with all
compelled by the increase of crime and
Population to build,
ut the law.
' but t° carry 0
the improvements
and were not there to
think
ksltahteat
Major G. Ebb did not
they could make, the present gaol would be sufficient, and
recommended the building of a new one. There W., a
good
deal of the ad captandurn in the report. The statement that
the additional cost would be only £14,000 looked well on
paper, but Le doubted whether it would be so in effect. Mr.
Bolton had told them that there was not one
oneshilling sur-
plus revenue in the corporate estate. falln the inhabitants Mr.Birkett wag
nop-
posed to the rate because it would -
having property, but that was perfectly absurd, because they
must have been aware when they acquired that property of
its liabilities—
Mr. BIRKETT.—Ships are not touched.
Mr. BUSHELL observed that they should imitate Sir Robt.
Peel with his Income Tax.
Mr. BIRKETT.—Sir Robert exempted the poor, and
treated all others alike.
Mr. BUSHELL concluded by stating his agreement with
the view of Mr. Alderman Evans.
In reply to a question from Mr. Alderman Nicol, Mr. G.
H. LAWRENCE observed that Mersrs. Alderman Evans and
Bushell meant that the rate should form an accumulative
fund.

Mr. IloposoN supported the view that the gaols of the
country ought to he made more uncomfortable in regard to
food and discipline, and said that there existed much false
spmpathy abroad on the subject. He suggested that the council
should pay a part of the expense and the town the other.
Mr. BpsnELL and Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE remarked that
this was intended, if the council did not pay the whole.
Mr. Hoo.osoN supposed there was no power to levy ex-
cept upon fixed property, or he should recommend it on im-
portations.
The TowN.Clzax stated that the rate would be levied in
the SAM manner 41 tha poor-rate.

Mr. PAtuott approved of the report of the Finance Com-
mittee. They had acted as if they were unwilling to harden
the poor, on whom the rate would unquestionably fall if
it were to be levied on the town. It would not be very popu-
lar to be brought forward by the conservatives just on the
eve of the let of November. See how it would fall in 11r.
Bushell's ward.

Mr. BUSHELL.—That is rather hard just before the elec-
ion.

Mr. PARKE/L.-Mr. Bushell had represented, on the faith
of Mr. Bolton's assertion, that there was no surplus fund.
He differed with that statement. The Birkenhead commis-
sioners could get money only at five per cent. whilst the cor-
poration could get it at four per cent., showing clearly that
they were far from a state of hankrupicy.
Mr. BUSH ELL would boldly stake his knowledge against
Mr. Parker's modesty for the truth of his statement. With-
out being on the Finance Committee he had chosen to make
an assertion which was completely unsupported and opposed
to that given on the authority of an old and one of the most
useful members of that committee. _ _

Mr. EARLE said that as Mr. Parker had introduced the
bnsiness transacted on the other side of the water, he would
mention that there the worthy councillor had tried tet stop
the steam-boats running on Sundays, whilst here he advo-
cated the keeping open the public-houses on Sundays.
(Confusion.) It was enough to make a dog sick.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE agreed in the propriety of taking
the wing at present occupied by the debtors if it could be
done, and recommended that time should be taken for con-
sideration. Liverpool had the unenviable notoriety of being
higher than any other town as regarded the proportion of
juvenile criminals to the number of inhabitants. In Liver-
pool they were 66 per cent., whilst in Manchester they were
only 43. It was easy for Major Jebb to say the pr;son ought
to be built whatever might be the inconvenience, but it was
not so easy for the Council to find the means. This was
their first considerations ; the next should be as to the pre-
vention and increase of crime. With good food and good
treatment, were they to build a gaol ten times as large as the
present one it would soon be filled. One cause of the pri-
son being required was, the mistaken leniency exercised to-
wards juvenile criminals. He questioned whether the phi-
lanthropists, who were in the habit of going through the
country visiting gaols, had not done more harm than good.
A London magistrate had expressed a wish that the legisla-
ture would empower the magistrates to order juvenile felons
a sound flogging. Were that done we should not have boys
committed here seven, eight, nine, and even twenty times,
which had been the case. Supposing we could start fair with
the new gaol, the best plan he could devise would be to give
them a sound religious education, but if they went there he
was for the severe method. 'Why was crime less in Scotland
than in England? Because education was different. If he
had his will he would get our clergy to take up this question.
Let them spend the thousands of pounds, which they now
squandered upon foreign missionaries, in filling the bellies of
the poor and then giving them instruction. He would not
subscribe one shilling to a missionary society whilst there
was a poor and ignorant man in his own country. He pro-
posed an amendment to the effect, that a special committee
should be appointed to consider the propriety of establishing
a reformatory, and calling upon the legislature to empower
magistrates to order whipping for juvenile criminals.
Mr. JORDAN seconded the motion.
Mr. ASPINALL, as a member of the Finance Committee,
should give his hearty support to the motion made by the
chairman. He was decidedly of opinion that a borough rate
ought not to be thought of so long as there was so much
available property in the hands of the corporation. From
what they had received from the (lock estate the government
compelled them to pay off .£146,000 of the bonded debt;
but there was £73,000 yet to be received, which
might, by permission of the government, be applied to
the building of a new gaol. (Hear.) So long as that
money was available he did not see any reasonable ground
for taxing the poor inhabitants of the town ; and, indeed,
he should always set his face against a borough rate,
whilst the corporation might make so much of their pro-
perty available for the purpose. Besides this, the corporation
had property, the leases of which had lapsed and were
kept for improvement, the rental of which was £5986 per
annum ; and, independently of that, the dockyards and the
Cheshire estate, they had land worth upwards of £150,000,
which paid a rental of only £2BOO, or not 2 per cent.
Whilst the times were so hard people could not afford to pay
a rate. (Hear.) If they were to have a new gaol, let there
be better times, when all this property might come into the
market. It was not fair, under these circumstances, to im-
pose a borough rate; and he should most strenuously lift
his voice against it. (Hear.)
Mr. BOLTON said that the money to be paid from the dock
estate had brought an interest of £5OOO a-year, which had
ceased, and must be replaced.
Mr. SHAND, Mr. HARBORD, and Mr. PLATT were for
further consideration.

Mr. ISAAC HOLMES was glad to find that Mr. Bolton, just
as he was going out of the council, was of his opinion, that
the corporation had no surplus fund. He had contended that
for three or four years. A gaol-rate would be unjust and
unequal, and would be paid by only about one-third of the
inhabitants—chiefly shopkeepers and cottage owners. The
cost of maintaining prisoners in the gaol was about one-sixth
per cent. more than in the workhouse, which ought not to
be the case. As to the statement that in Liverpool the pro-
portion of juvenile oflenders was 60 per cent., and in Man-
chester 48, it should be remembered that in Manchester,
when they came out of gaol, there was work for them, which
was not the case here. In some governments juvenile regi-
ments were formed, into which boys of 15 years old were en-
listed. It was to be regretted there was not something of
the kind in England.
Mr. AIKIN, after some more observations, proposed that
the consideration of the subject should be again referred to
the committee, in order to ascertain if they could not adopt
measures to render a gaol unnecessary.
Mr. PLATT seconded the resolution.

Mr. FREME said all the suggestions made during that dis-
cussion had been already submitted to Major Jebb, and de-
bated. The building of the new gaol had been forced upon
the council.

Mr. LLOYD.—What is the penalty for non-compliance?
Mr. FREME.—They may take our quarter sessions from us.
Mr. LLOYD said that was the best thing that could be
done ; for during the last five years the prosecutions had cost
the town £20,000. It was the strangers who came into the
town that added to the crime.
The MAYOR.—WOUICI not the expense be greater if the
prisoners were tried by the county ?
Mr. LLOYD.—Yes • but we should be the better able to pay.
Mr. COOPF.R said the surplus fund of the corporation
would be quite sufficient to enable them to build the gaol, it
rigid economy were practised. The whole town, after the re-
cent increase of the pours-rates, would rise against a borough
rate. If they got rid of their quarter sessions, they would
have to pay for the trial of their prisoners by a county rate.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE briefly replied, and the votes were
taken on Mr. Aikin's amendment. There were 10 for and
42 against it, as follows :
For the amendment—Messrs. Hodgson, Preston, H.
Holmes, Bright, Toulmin, Gladstone, Jordan, Platt, Har-
board, and Bramley Moore.
Aga:nst it—Messrs. Shand, I. Holmes, Thornhill, Sand-
bach, Copeland, Edwards, Mellor, Sands, Bolton, Aikin,
Priestley, Aspinall, Yates, J. Lawrence, Robinson, Cooper,
Wood, Bi,kett, Bushell, Lloyd, Kilshaw, Parker, Jones,
jun., Brassey, J. Smith, G. H. Lawrence, Trotman, A.
Smith, jun., Holt, Bully, Freme, Evans, Barclay, Earle,
Moon, R. Houghton, Nicol, Turner, Molyneux, Crook, Sir
T. Brancker, and the Mayor.
Mr. HODGSON, Mr. BRIGHT, and Mr. SANDS recom-
mended a postponement, on the ground that much new matter
had been brought forward, and that new members would
shortly be coming into the council, who might wish to have
something to say on the matter.
Mr. YATES and Mr. PARKER deprecated delay.
. . .

Mr. BOLTON said the government had made up their minds
to have a new gaol, and all the plans spoken of that day were
useless.
Mr. EARLE observed that something had arisen about en-
larging the bridewell.
Mr. THORNHILL—That is not decided upon yet.
Mr. EARLE.—I know that as well as you ; and I know
that you would prevent it if you could.
Mr. THORNHILL.7-YOU are arguing as if it were.

Mr. EARLE.—lndeed, I don't argue at all. I don't know
if they will put the Watch Committee in it. It is rumoured
that some of them have been there before now. .

Mr. FREME observed that all that Mr. Aikin contemplated
would be effected in the new gaol.
Mr. Ntcot. said the postponement was useless. As to the
suggestion about a reformatory, it had been tried in England
and in Scotland. He had seen one in Glasgow, and it might
be done by private and charitable subscription, but the
legislature would never grant an act for the purpose. With
regard to the proposed application of the bridewell to the
reception of juvenile delinquents, the Town-clerk would bear
him out in the assertion that that could only be done by
having a gaol establishment there. Whipping had so re-
cently been abolished by the government, that he thought it
was not likely it would be introduced.
At the suggestion of Mr. JORDAN, Mr. Aikin withdrew
that part of his amendment referring to whipping, and it
stood merely as fur postponement.
Thelrotes were then taken as follow:
For the amendment—Messrs. D. Hodgson, W. Preston,
Henry Holmes, T. Sands, J. Aikin, R. Bright, T. Touhnin,
R. Gladstone, F. Jordan, J. Platt, E. Evans, T. B. Barclay,
W. Earle, J. H. Turner, and J. Bromley-Moore.
Against it—F. Shand, Isaac Holmes, W. Thornhill H. R.
Sandbach, H. Copeland, J. Edwards, T. Bolton, J. Priestley,
J. Aspinall, R. V. Yates, J. Lawrence, T. Robinson, J.
Cooper, J. N. Wood, W. Birkett, J. Proctor, J. B. Lloyd,
J. Kilshaw, J. Parker, R. Jones, jun., T. Brassey, J. Smith,
G. H. Lawrence, S. L. Trotman; A. Smith, jun., T. Holt,
T. Bulley, W. P. Freme, Sir T. Brancker, J. Moon, W.
Nicol, E. :Molyneux, R. S. Crook, and the Mayor.
The original motion was then put and carried.
REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON TILE PAID
OFFICERS OF THE CORPORATION.
The next subject on the paper was the consideration of the
first report of the Special Committee on the Paid Officers of
the Corporation.
Mr. LLOYD, chairman of the special committee, said it
would be more convenient if the council proceeded in the first
instance to the fourth subject on the summons, which
was the reading of the report on the department of the
treasurer.

The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK then read the report, which
commenced with a statement of the duties of the treasurer,
and his assistants, Mr. Neilson and Mr. Smith. It appeared
that the present treasurer was appointed on the removal of
Mr. John Deane Case, in 1836, (to whom an annuity of £5OO
was secured for life,) at a salary of £5OO per annum, he giv-
ing security in the sum of £BOOO. Mr. Neilson, as book-
keeper, has a salary of £2OO, besides £5O a year as keeper of
the wine cellar, and £lO as secretary and assistant. treasurer
to the Wallasev Commissioners; and in addition to this, he
has, for the I.tst t elve months, in conjunction with Mr
Smith, been engaged in auditing the accounts of the Court
of Requests, which extend over a period of five years. Mr.
Smith is the assistant-book-keeper and collector; he has a
salary of £l5O, and gives security in £3OO. The report
stated that no check had been kept by the treasurer on the
fees received in the town-clerk's office, and that accounts
were examined merely as to the correctness of the additions,
without its being ascertained whether the goods supplied had
been furnished at the lowest cash price, or discount allowed.
Several recommendations were then made, the most important
of which were, that the treasurer should check all fees re-
ceived, that he should make the calculations of fines upon
the renewal of leases ; that all orders should pass from his
office ; and that his published accounts should be arranged
in a more perfect form.
Mr. LLOYD said that the council having heard the report
o(ntimteharer:ticheilsll
reasru.)rer's department, he should move that it be re-
ferred back to the committee, and brought up again for con-
sideration when the committee
made their second report.
NW seconded the motion.
Mr. EARLE said he would suggest the alteration of one
word in the report, to which the committee would perhaps
assent. The report stated that the present treasurer was
appointed upon the " removal"a of Mr..r ase, which would
heihr.heChaseled.
imn w li
had actually been removed from the
sanpalytio that
The fae
and,t,h therefore, he
hhee accepted
notpted
£5OO a-year as a compromise,
thrown out. The present number
not of clerks were proposed to
him, and he said he could conductthatthae
nbusines
arrangements with
was made whereby he retired. lie
them ; the consequence of which was,
mentionedwotn thiswould
have justicehee n,
to Mr. Case. The proper expression
" Mr. LLOYD
theresignationaosfkMi‘ri. r .
C a s e.'
Earle, in the first instance,
whether whether there had been any deduction in the ex
office? There had been a change, he admitter,n bcuet the
not think it had been attended with any diminution of ex.
pence. There was then Mr. Case, Mr. John Sudlow, Mr.
William Sudlow, and Mr. Pearson; there was now Mr.
Wyberg, Mr. Neilson, Mr. Smith, and Mr. Pearson. Now
where one gentleman had been in the receipt of £l,OOO

a-year for his services, and Something; considerably less was
offered to him, which he did not choose to accept, for tha
same services, call it what they might, he (Mr. Lloyd) con-
sidered it a removal ; but if the word " removal" was not
approved of, he would willingly say, " upon the retirement
of Mr. Case."
Mr. EARLE said there was one person less under the pre-
sent treasurer, because Mr. Pearson was superannuated.
Mr. BOLTON said the present was not the proper time,
otherwise he could readily explain the apportionment of the
office.
Mr. LLOYD said, if the word had been dismissed, there
might have been some ground for cavil, but as it was there
wi.s none. •
Mr. BOLTON suggested that " retirement" would be the
better word to adopt.
Mr. BIRKETT observed, that if there were the same num-
ber of clerks now as there were then, it was a removal.
Mr. EARLE.—But you have not the same number.
Mr. BIRKETT.—Then we ought to have it explained.
The MAYOR explained that it was a voluntary thing upon
the part of Mr. Case.
Mr. LLOYD considered the subject in discussion perfectly
trivial, and noc worth the words spent upon it.
The TOWN-CLERK suggested that the proper course would
be to refer to the resolution of the Council. which would de-
termine whether it was a removal. According to his recol-
lection it was, in point of form, a removal under the Munici-
pal Corporations' Act, without which the bond to Mr. Case
could not have been granted. The books, however, would
speak for themselves.
Mr. SANDS remarked that there must have been a virtual
removal.

Mr. AIKIN said, that the chairman having proposed to re-
fer the report hack to the committee, it was not before the
Council ; otherwise he (Mr. Aikin) should take objections to
many parts of it.
• The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK read from the council pro-
ceedings a report from the Paid Officers' Committee, dated
the 4th of May, 1836, which recommended (and it was agreed
to) that from and after the 7th of May, 1836, the services of
Mr. John Deane Case, as treasurer of the borough, be dis-
continued. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COOPER said if that was not a removal, he did not
know what was. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOOP.E.—It is something very like a dis-
missal. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. LLOYD moved that the word "dismissal" be substi-
tuted for " removal."
Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE seconded the motion. Mr. Earle
would, perhaps, now receive the expression much better than
he did before.
Mr. LLOYD observed that the act of parliament said the
council of every borough should have the power of removal.
Removal, therefore. was the nroper word to use.
Mr. AIKIN said he should like to know, from the recol-
lection of the town-clerk, whether a compromise was not
made? He (Mr. Aikin) bad a clear recollection that it
never was intended to remove Mr. Case, but instead of con-
tinuing to him £lOOO, they had presented to him only £5OO.
He knew there was an arrangement made to enable the party
retiring, and the other party who came in, to receive £5OO.
If Mr. Case had continued to act, his original salary of
£lOOO would have been continued ; but to enable the coun-
cil to accomplish the grant of £5OO within the meaning of
the act, he would ask the town-clerk whether some arrange-
ment was not made?
The TOWN-CLERK said the answer he should give to that
question, with all deference, would be this. His understand-
ing was that there was a compromise between the Paid
Officers' Committee and Mr. Case. It being understood that
Mr. Case would be content with £5500 a-year secured to
him, an arrangement was made to carry into effect what was
legal under the municipal act—namely, his removal, Mr. Case
claiming compensation, and having that compensation al-
lowed to him.
Mr. LLOYD asked how it could be expected that he, who
had not been in the council twelve months, should know of
the existence of any private arrangement? He thought,
however, enough had been said upon the subject.
Mr. EARLE said that Mr. Case would confirm what the
town-clerk had stated.
The MAYOR observed that the word in the act of parlia-
ment was " removed."
The report on the treasurer's department was then re-
ferred beck to the Paid Officers' Committee.
Mr. LLOYD would now proceed to the third subject upon
the summons, which was for the council to take into consi-
deration the first report of the Paid Officers' Committee, laid
before them at their last meeting. He then promised that at
the present meeting there should be laid upon the table the
evidence upon which the committee had grounded their re-
port. The evidence was now upon the table ; it was now be-
fore the council. (Hear.) He would suggest to the council
that they should take the whole subject into their most
serious consideration, inasmuch as it was most important for
the good government and direction of this large estate. In
the dismission on the gaol question, a great deal had been
said on the advantage of system and discipline ; and he must
apply the same remark to the departments referred to in the re-
port, for in them there was a want of that system, direction,
and discipline, which were most essential for the welfare of
the establishment. Two modes had suggested themselves to
his mind for the council to deal with this report. The first
wes this—that he, as Chairman of the Paid Officers' Com-
mittee, should move " that the report be taken in considera-
tion at a future• day, and that in the mean time the Town.
clerk, the Deputy Town-clerk, the Clerk of Committees, and
the Sergeant-at-Mace, state their views in writing to the
council, through the committee, upon such parts of the re-
port as may be considered to refer to themselves ; and that
the committee be instructed to procure, through the town-
clerk, counsels' opinion upon the legal questions which arise
upon the report." The other mode was, to move " that
every department be now considered seriatim, and such
parts of the evidence read, and documents referred to, as may
be considered necessary, in order to show the grounds upon
which the committee have made their report; and subse-
quently come to a decision upon the whole, or any part, of the
committee's recommendations." If any point should arise
on which there might be discussion, or anything read from
the evidence which was now found incorrect, he would
suggest, in the first instance, that that particular subject
should be referred back to the committee for their
further report thereon, and that the officer whose duty
might be made the subject of the question should report
to the council, through the committee, upon that particular
question. Perhaps there might be a third course that the
council might take with advantage—it was, to throw both
the report and the evidence aside, and take the case as it
stood for themselves. [Mr. EARLE—Oh Lord; no, no!]
Why one heard every day almost of the House of Com-
mons resolving itself into committee in order to enter
upon details where the strict rules of discussion could
t
:tfevsheteh,
they
abuse—and
dm,
who were
ndsuwc.
seetoteliruhr
—eat
ofir tdotatoutnhnr
through
oheohetaeunvli cgteoevohhaii ue:
ngint
wohc allt
whole
onlyoot course
wameol
fbiyuri
ugoiraessmh
resolve themselves into committee, and take all the
evidence
not be observed. This was just one of those cases, and
therefore it had occurred tot,olditil
ll
fih
tbthhvu they
which
y, t
t shoi
labourruxt
egi ,
threats.
ts for
r tbsoeu
The
ket
hnhan eoe
committeeindividuals,
wmc ,so e
greatuuhlnvan ecdldealesis had—that
evi-
dence. The second resolution, of those he proposed,
would impose a great deal of labour upon him, but he did
not shrink from that, however formidable it might be; because
he was determined to do what he conceived to be his duty.
(Hear, hear.) He was, at the same time, prepared to go
through the report, sentence by sentence, and to prove
every passage in it by the evidence given by the officers and
servants of the corporation themselves. And he was bound
to state that personally he had received the greatest courtesy
from every officer connected with the corporation ; but there
was a circumstance relative to Mr. Okill, the Clerk of
Committees, which he regretted to be obliged to state.
He did so because there was a ;resolution upon the proceed-
ings of the committee, which if read without any explana-
tion, might seem to have been incorrectly placed there. As
chairman, the course he had adopted was to request the
head of every department to furnish the committee with a
statement of his duties in writing ; and along with the rest
Mr. Okill was requested to do the same. Mr. Okill laid be-
fore the committee a report presented to the council in 1839,
stating that his duties were described there ; but upon read-
ing it the committee found that it related to his past not to
his present services. On calling for Mr. Okill they were in-
formed that he had left the building. The committee thought
nothing of that at the time, and they proceeded to take the
examination of his clerk, Mr. Abbott. They then fixed
another day, on which to take Mr. Okill's examination ; the
committee met on that day, but, he regretted to say Mr.
Okill did not make his appearance, although he (Mr. Lloyd)
had written to him to inform him of the meeting, and al-
though he had seen the resolution of the committee that they
would proceed with his examination, some days before.
Another meeting was then appointed ; but at that meeting
Mr. ()kill did not come to the committee with his duties in
the shape the committee required, and consequently
his examination was postponed till another meeting. The
committee had the trouble of meeting no less than four times
before they could get Mr. Okill's duties in writing. He
made these observations, because, from the course the ex-
amination had taken, he thought the committee had lost
most valuable information in not having had in the first in-
stance the same mode of dealing with Mr. Okill as they had
with the Town-clerk.
Mr. SANDS—Did he never appear?
Mr. LLOYD replied:that he had. The Town-clerk, from
first to last, had given the fullest information he possibly
could ; and if the committee had met with the same
straightforward conduct upon every side, it would have been
of the greatest convenience to them ; and any inaccuracies
which there might possibly he in the report might have
been obviated. lie (Mr. Lloyd) would be the first to
admit. and it must be admitted on all sides, that the services
of Mr. Okill to the corporation had been very great. The
old corporation, as well as the new, had admitted the value
of those services by grants of money and by increase which
from time to time they had made in his salary. Whether he
had been sufficiently remunerated for his past services was
not a question for the council to go into now ; but he (Mr.
Lloyd) considered that Mr. Okill stood in a false position
with regard to the council. For instance he had now the
custody of that which the officer who was to conduct the ex-
ecution of the municipal corporations' act, with relation to
this borough, might at any moment take from him.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE—He is bound to do it.
Mr. LLOYD, in continuation, said that if the council kept
Mr. Okill in his present position, they could not keep him
there except as a clerk of the town-clerk.
A MEereett—No doubt of it.
Mr. LLOYD.—It was said " No doubt about it," but Mr.
Okill did not consider himself as a clerk of the Town-Clerk,
and it could not be expected that a person with his habits,
and at his time of life, could ever be brought to consider
himself so. It was absurd therefore to say that there was no
doubt about it. The evidence would show that neither Mr.
Okill himself, nor the Town-Clerk considered that to be his
position, and, consequently, he (Mr. Lloyd) held that Mr.
Okill stood in a wrong position. His view was that Mr.
Okill might be placed in a more advantageous situation, and
let the law take its course, Place him in such a position
as an accountant or other person would be, when called in to
examine into the correctness of a mass of accounts ; to
ascertain that all indexes were kept up correctly ; that all
the leases were sufficiently checked; and do not let the
salary be any consideration if the Town-Clerk or the
Deputy Town-Clerk wanted efficient assistance. The
council would then have this advantage, that the Town-
Clerk, and any other officer who required it, might go to
him for information, and have it at any time ; for if anything
should happen to Mr. Okill, what was now before the coun-
cil would have to be gone into, and how much better was it
to have all the officers in their proper places when it could
be done with advantage, and they could obtain from Mr.
Okill the valuable information he possessed, which was ne-
cessary for those officers who were really proceeding according
to the act of parliament. (Hear, hear.) The fact was, that if
Mr. Okill were taken away from them this matter would
have to be begun again, ae 210V0 ;—(hear)—and the evidence.
in point of fact, showed that time had been lost by the act not
being observed. There might be inaccuracies in the report,
but those inaccuracies would be found trivial when compared
with the importance and extent of the subject now before
them. He would suggest that, if any discussion should
arise, as had already arisen, about a word, that the council
should deal first with the main question, and afterwards de-
bate whether a particular word should have been used—dis-
missed, removed, or retired. (Hear, hear.) There were
two ways of telling a tale ; the committee had told theirs
from the evidence. If any gentleman should not approve of
the words used, he (Mr. Lloyd) would be the first to, bow to
the decision of the council. Let them show that any parti-
cular portion of the report was wrong, and he would be the
first to apologise for it, or for whatever might hurt the feelings
of any one, or if the council said strong words had been used
where mild ones should have been placed. He therefore begged
to move the first of the resolutions which he had read. He had
at present said nothing about printing the evidence; and why?
Until they heard what the officers, who had to conduct the
business part of the system to he laid down had to say, it

would be wror;g td publish the evideneei There thlgiit be
dates and other matters which the individuals who furnished
them to the committee might, upon referring back, and taking
the mass of council proceedings from 183 G to the present
time, find inaccurate, or some resolutions which had never
come before the committee, and of the existence of which
they could have bad no knowledge. It would, therefore, be
wrong to print the evidence, without taking more time for
consideration.
Mr. SANDS.—That refers to Abbott's case?

Mr. LLOYD said there might be inaccuracies in the report,
and that might be one ; but he could point out to the council,
upon the evidence, that Cie committee could have come to
no other conclusion than they had. In moving the resolu-
tion which he had read, he begged to say that he laid the
report before the council in the full confidence that its sug-
gestions, if adopted, would put the affairs of the corporation
in a much better business position than they were.
Mr. KILSRAW seconded the motion.
Mr. BOLTON said, he did not rise to oppose the mode of
proceeding which Mr. Lloyd had suggested, because very
likely it would be most convenient for the final settlement of
the question. But he must say, that in the report now sub
mitted there was much, both in the manner and in the matter,
of which he disapproved. While it contained many sug-
gestions which,' if carried, would, he had no doubt, be
beneficial to the corporate estate, the report being printed
and known not only to the members of the council, but to
the town, he felt himself called upon (particularly as he
might not have the opportunity of doing so when it was con-
sidered again) to make a few observation upon the report
itself. In the first place he objected to the expression in
page 2, that throughout the entire of the Town-clerk's de-
partment there was a total want of system. That was a very
sweeping assertion. He did not concur in the accuracy of
it, although to a certain extent it might be as there laid
down. The report just read he objected to, because it im-
plied a censure upon the Treasurer of the Borough Fund,
not intended, he believed, but certainly the words used
would seem to convey it. It was in fact the tone and tem-
per of the whole report that he objected to, because it con-
veyed censure upon officers who had not an opportunity of
replying to its assertions. Now from having bad frequent
occasion to be in the Treasurer's office, he could say that
that office was conducted with as much regularity as any
public office in the kingdom, be the other wherever it
might.
Mr. KILSTIAW called upon Mr. Bolton to confine himself
to the Town-clerk's department.
Mr. Nicol, said it was irregular and premature at present
for Mr. Bolton to go into the discussion of the details. The
report must at present be considered exports, as the officers
affected by it had not vet had an opportunity of sending in
their statements upon it. The discussion should take place
when both sides were before the council, and not till then.
Mr. EARLE professed his astonishment to hear Mr.
Nicol say that the report was experts. Was it correct that
Mr. Nicol had pronounced it an ex parte report ?
Mr. NicoL—Yes, certainly.
Mr. EARLE was really astonished. Why it was the report
of a committee which had been appointed to report nothing
but facts ; but here there was a fact stated which was not a
, fact.

Mr. NrcoL said it was founded upon the evidence, he had
no doubt.

Mr. BOLTON repeated that the report as now published
conveyed a censure upon the Treasurer which was not de-
served.

Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE said it conveyed no such censure
upon the Treasurer.
Mr. Bor.Toe; said he was prepared to go into considerable
detail upon the report ; but he would throw up his memo-
randa, and speak from memory. iChere were two or three
parts which ought no longer to be kept from the public. He
would first refer to that part of the report which related to
the appointment of Mr. Okill's clerk. Mr. B. then went
on to speak of Mr. Abbott's printed explanation touching the
allegations in the report. 'With respect to the custody of
the muniments and leases, he said the law might have ope-
rated very well in other places, but with the great amount
of labour which devolved on the Town-clerk of Liverpool, the
law required too n4uch duty from him. Mr. Okill should
be the custodian'of those documents, and he merely held them
now as the confidential clerk of the Town-clerk. Mr. Bol-
ton proceeded to explain in what manner the appointment of
Mr. Roscoe, as sergeant-at-mace, took place. Mr. Parkin-
son stated that he wits unable to find the security required
from him, and prayed for compensation, which was granted
to him. Mr. Bolton next entered into very lengthy explana-
tions of the reasons for the removal of Mr. Case, finding
fault with the term " removal " used in the report. He
said it was stated that officers had been dismissed. He was
not aware of any officer who performed his duty efficiently
having been dismissed. He challenged any one to name any
officer who had performed his duty efficiently who lied been
dismissed.
Mr. HODGSON.—Mr. Case.
Mr. BOLTON.--I have already explained that.
Mr. J. LAWRENCE.—Yes, to your orvn satisfaction, but
not to ours.
Mr. EARLE.—Mr. Case would give precisely the same
explanation himself.
Mr. BOLTON proceeded to observe further on the tone and
feeling of the report, which, he said, should have resembled
the charge of a judge to a jury. In his view of the case, the
Town Clerk had great reason to complain of the tone used
as regarded his department. The onerous and laborious
duties of the Town Clerk ought to have been taken into con-
sideration, and the incessant interruptions which he expe-
rienced from every member of the council who might happen
to have a crotchet in his head. The Town Clerk ought to
have an opportunity of repelling those charges, and he hoped
it would be afforded to him. Another thing ; he never
wished to deal with motives—only with facts. The council
at which the report of the Paid Officers' Committee was read
was held on the Wednesday. That report was published in
the Standard of Friday, a copy of which he had before him ;
and he now wished to know by whose authority that report
was published, and for what object it had been published ?
Mr. BUSHELL.—Reporters are here, Mr. Bolton.
Mr. BOLTON asked whether any man would tell him that
any reporter could take down an intricate document divided
and subdivided into three or four heads ? No reporter could
have taken even the figures down.
Mr. BUSUELL.—If the report was not intended to be
published, the reporters should have been ordered to retire.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOLTON defied any reporter to have taken down such
a document, when there was so much minute subdivision
and arrangement, so accurately as it had been printed in the
Standard. It was out of the power of human nature. He
complained, therefore, that the report had been either stolen
by some one who had no right to the possession of it. or
that it had been furnished by some person to the Standard
most improperly. (Much confusion.) That report, when
placed in the hands of the council, became the property of
the council; and no human being had any right to make use
of it but those to whom it belonged. (Renewed confusion.)
Mr. PROCTER, as a member of the Paid Officers' Com-
mittee,
wordttee " stolen." Before ,hop esdtehatMr. Bolton
he wentonwould oneimmesdtieaptelfyorwtibethrd, raw
the he
nust withdraw that word. It would not be the first time he
had been compelled to withdraw his assertions. (Hear,
hear, hear.)
Mr. BOLTON said he put it in this way. He must either
have stolen it or have had it given to him in some manner
which he (Mr. Bolton) wanted to have explained. (Uproar,
and cries of " Withdraw.")
Mr. PROCTER put it to the council whether it was courte-
ous towards the members of the committee which had acted
with Mr. Bolton, for him to use the word " stolen." He
ought to be compelled to withdraw it. (Cheers.)
Mr. BOLTON left the matter to the common sense of the
council to pass their own judgment upon the way in which
the report had been obtained by the Standard. It must
have been either stolen or furnished, he did not say which.
(Great confusion.)
Mr. LLOYD said he would prevent all further trouble upon
the subject by avowing that the reporters, beingte publicadmittedall
into that room for the liberal purpose of telling the
that transpired there, had applied for a copy of the report,
and that he had furnished them with a draught of it, which
was his own property. • (Loud cheers.)
Mr. Bar:role withdrew the word " stolen," but wished to
know what was the intention of publishing that report.
There was a ward meeting on the night of the council, and
he saw by the Standard that Mr. J. B. Lloyd " seconded
the motion, and referred to the able report" which bad been
read in the council. (A laugh.)—lt was immediately ex-
plained that the words quoted were those of the reporter and
not of Mr. Lloyd.
Sir Trios. BRANCKER said he thought the council ought
to confine themselves to the terms of the motion, and not to
enter upon details.
Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE, with regard to the alleged seve-
rity of the report, begged that Mr. Bolton's questions to the
Town-clerk might be read from the evidence, and it would
soon be seen what his feelings were with respect to the
Town-clerk.
Mr. BOLTON protested against any single extract being
read from the evidence, as the council could not judge of the
animus therefrom. He had no objection to the whole being
read.
Mr. BIRKETT moved that the evidence be read, but was
ultimately induced to withdraw his motion.
Mr. BARCLAY stated his objections to the report, and
contended that it was at variance with the resolution ap-
pointing the committee.
Mr. BitaaiLEY-Mocutz did not wish to interfere in the
present question between theSchairman of the Paid Officers'
Committee and Mr. Bolton; but Mr. Bolton had asserted
that the report displayed a bad feeling. That was the asser-
tion of Mr. Bolton. Now he, (Mr. Moore,) upon his part,
would undertake to say that, so far from there being any
asperity in the report, it was rather more than borne out by
the evidence upon the table. (Hear.) There was, then, his
assertion against Mr. Bolton. (Hear.) The evidence was
there ; and, if ever it came to be printed, the council might
judge for themselves.
The MAYOR said the proper time to allude to the evidence
was when it had been printed, and not till then. The ques-
tion now was, whether the council would go into the general
subject or not.
Mr. BRANILEY-MOORE.—Mr. Bolton has—
The NlAroa.—Transgressed, 1 should say. -
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said that Mr. Bolton, in his
speech, had made observations about the letter of Mr. Ab-
bott. As that letter had had free circulation, he (Mr. Bram-
ley-Moore) thought it only right,in justification of the Com-
mittee, to claim the privilege of making a few observations
upon it. It had been said that Mr. Abbott had triumph-
antly answered the only two charges contained in the report.
Now Mr. Abbott, contrary to the course of all the paid officers,
had been the first to take time by the forelock, and publish a re-
port of his own, justifying his conduct, and charging the report
with making statements which were not borne out by the
proceedings of the council, instead of waiting to communicate,
as the other officers were to do, through the committee. This
was the question which he (Mr. Moore) should more parti-
cularly deal with now. Mr. Bolton had made reference to
certain proceedings of the council, with reference to Mr.
Okill and his clerk, and he (Mr. Moore) would just recapi-
tulate what had taken place upon that business. By the re-
port of the Paid Officers' Committee, on the 2d March, 1836,
they recommended Mr. Okill to have a clerk, and neither of
them to do business privately on their own account. This
report was ordered to be printed, and taken into considera-
tion on the Friday next. Let the council take notice of the
dates. A special council was held on the 4th March, two
days afterwards, when it was resolved that the report should
be again considered on the 16th of March, and a special
council called for that purpose. On that occasion the town-
clerk and the deputy town-clerk were appointed, and after
the report of the Paid Officers' Committee had been con-
sidered, it was " resolved that the appointment of surveyor
be approved ; that the report under the head of ' Clerk
of Committees' he approved, but referred back to the com-
mittee
gene-
ral
accounts
en
corporationwh e t e r a s yesatoe mo
not
of
bcehe effected,ck
ooftfhetthiic3oeor
which
time services of Mr. Okill and his clerk can not be used with
advantage." Now, in searching, the present committee
could not find that this report had ever been made : it
was never reported upon. It might be that they were
Financeil, the
llable tocotimirmidittiete.
brought Ten uopornepotirmet
before22d
uncil ;
and they resolved, that the clerk of committees having
recommended the appointment of James Abbott to be his
clerk, at a salary of £l5O, the same be allowed, and
that he be allowed to carry on the business of a law-sta-
tioner, and so on. This was a resolution of the Finance
Committee, which was brought before the council and con-
firmed by them; without any observation whatever, upon the
4th of May • thus stultifying the proceedings of the 2d, 4th,
and 16th of 'March. (Hear.) Now, it could excite no won-
der that this resolution of the Finance Committee should
have been overlooked by the Paid Officers Committee, see.
ing, too, that Mr. Bolton himself halydnxbeeeyne ;
a mtheemrebfoerreofhtohwe
committee of 1836. It had escaped even his observation
talong f withlB 36: the
andrest it
b
ofa thed
escapedo ther
hs members of the present com-
mittee. Mr. Bolton actually was a member of the commit.

Cald it bd eiOcted that the present committee, new hands
as they were, should find out such a resolution? But it was
necessary here to show that when the council passed the re-
solution saying that Mr. Abbott should have £l5O a-year and
not transact business, the Finance Committee not only per-
tnittted him to have private business, but increased his salary
to £2so,—still allowed him to transact private business.
Now. it would not excite any surprise that the committee
should not have found the resolution of the Finance Com-
mittee. Therefore, giving Mr. Abbott all the advantage of
that, what did it amount to? All she resolutions of the
council on the 2d, 14th, and 16th of March had been burled.
—smothered,--the whole of them. (Hear, hear.) To show
how difficult it was to arrive at real information when it was
required, and to show the manner in which the corporation
business had been conducted, he would mention a curious
circumstance. Ile had wanted to refer to certain proceedings
at the period when the municipal act came into operation, in
January, 1836. lie found the Borough Court and Court of
Requests Committee book, and when he opened it to read the
proceedings, lie found that there had been nothing done until
the 17th of November, 1836! (Hear, hear.) Were the com-
mittee ashamed to record their proceedings from January to
November. (Cheers.) They must have been so, because
there were forty-eight blank pages left to enter the proceed-
° ines to this very day. There was the hook! (producing it)
Mr. HODGSON—What never entered ?
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE—No, never entered, sir ! And
this was a matter which came before him casually ; and, for
anything that he knew, there might he fifty more in the same
way. Now, with such a state of things, how was it possible
to arrive at anything like correct information ? Forty-eight
pages left blank to this very day ; and to take a leaf out of
Mr. Earle's book, he would say to_ the gentlemen of the
press, " Take care to make that known to the public !"
(Hear.) The proceedings of this committee were not regis-
tered from January to November—not one word of them !
Mr. EARLE—I am sorry I cannot pay you the compliment
of taking. . a leaf out of your hook. Charity thinketh no
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE—Here it is, sir ! Here is the
book ; it speaks for itself! (Cheers-)
Mr. EARLE—Charity thinketh no ill ; but you think the
worst.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—What has become of the pro-
ceedings? (Renewed applause.)
Mr. EARLE.—I cannot say; but they are somewhere.
Mr. BRIGHT said there was no business to enter.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Then why not put that in? Why
the blank leaves?
Mr. AIKIN said on the very first page there was the ap-
pointment of a chairman of the committee, which was their
first act. (Great confusion.) He claimed the right to ex-
plain how this had happened.
The MAYOR said that Mr. Moore was in possession.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said that since Mr. Aikin was in-
clined to touch upon the matter, he would acquaint the council
that the committee was appointed upon the 4th of February.
Now, was it to be supposed that
Mr. JAs. LAWRENCE.—Their appointment is not here.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Their appointment was not
there. That appointment was for the 17th of November,
1836, after the election for the second year. The blank
leaves referred to the first year only ; consequently for the
first year there was actually no entry at all ! (Cheers.) Now
was it to be supposed that a committee, named on the 4th of
February, would not meet till the 17th of November ? (Ilear.)
He thought that Mr. Aikin's explanation would rather
plunge him deeper into the mire. (Hear.)
Mr. AIKIN said he had not been allowed to make it. Was
he allowed to speak in explanation ?
The MAYOR said Mr. Aikin was entitled to that.
Mr. AIKIN.—WiII you allow me to make my explanation ?
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Yes, certainly, when I have
done.
Mr. EARLE said that Mr. Mkin ought to have the oppor-
tunity of explaining before Mr. Moore proceeded. Why did
he wish to stop the truth from going forth ?
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Let the facts go forth ; and let
Mr. Aikin contradict them, if he can. The blank leaves arc
there ! You cannot get over that ! (Cheers.)
Mr. EARLE.—Oh, they are all clap-traps—nothing else.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE repeated that the blank leaves
were there. He was not going into the general question ;
but the evidence having been taken down, it was evident that
the report must be founded upon that. As to Mr. Case's
case, he thought that Mr. Bolton had most satisfactorily
proved that Mr. Case had been dismissed for the efficient
manner in which he had discharged his duties. (Loud cries
of " No, no," and " Yes, yes.") That question was there-
fore disposed of. There was another point which he had to
bring before the council. Mr. Abbott, to show that he was
allowed to do business as a law stationer, used some remark-
able words. He held Mr. Abbott's letter in his hand,
containing the resolution of the Finance Committee, which
stated that the office hours were to be from nine to five
arid later, whenever the work of the office might require it.
Mark those words. Now, in looking over the treasurer's
accounts, he (Mr. Moore) found a little item paid to Mr.
Abbot for extra work in Mr. Okill's office, of £33 12s. 3d.,
although the resolution distinctly stated that the office hours
should be from nine to five, and later whenever the work of
the office required it. (Hear, hear.) He would say no more
upon that subject, but pass on to the poll clerks. He had
heard it stated, both in and out of doors, that Mr. Abbott's
letter was a triumphant refutation of the committee's report.
Now, so far from that being the case, he (Mr. Moore) should
not let Mr. Abbott off so easily. What was the second pro-
position which he brought forward ? It was, that he ap-
pointed poll clerks as a law stationer, and not as clerk to Mr.
Okill ; and he (Mr. Moore) would soon show the council
what degree of credit was to be placed upon that statement.
It had been satisfactorily shown, and could be proved by the
evidence, that Mr. Abbott had appointed poll clerks, and
divided the fees with them. The corporation allowed a guinea
for each poll clerk ; and it could be satisfactorily shown, from
Mr. Abbott's own evidence, that he divided the fees with
them; that he put one half-guinea into his own pocket,
and generously gave the poor starving poll-clerks the other
half-guinea. This fact rested entirely upon his own admis-
sion ; therefore there could be no dispute about it. He said
he did this as a law-stationer, and that he employed his own
clerks. Now, if Mr. Abbott had done this, and his own
clerks had acted as poll-clerks, he had, in that case, no busi-
ness to give them the half-guinea. If they were his own
servants, he ought to have put the whole guinea into his own
pocket ; and his position on this point was, therefore, mate-
rially worse than he supposed. It was quite clear that if Ire
(Mr. Moore) sent one of his clerks, whom he paid by the
week or the year, anywhere, that clerk was in the discharge
of his service, and whatever he might earn cri that occasion,
he (Mr. Moore), as the employer, was entitled to the whole
of it. (Hear, hear.) So much for that part of Mr. Abbott's
letter. He said be sent the clerks out of his own office ; but
it was in evidence that he actually picked up one poor fellow
in the streets, during the mayoralty of Mr. Bolton, which
Mr. Bolton himself would be able to bear out. (Hear.)
Mr. 13orrow.-1 have explained that.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE wished to finish what he had to
say without being interrupted. That poor man had gone to
Mr. Bolton, the mayor, at the Town-hall, in a state of dis-
tress ; he told the mayor that he had not had n breakfast
that morning, and Mr. Bolton furnished him with the means
of procuring a breakfast for himself and his family. That
poor man had been deprived of his half-guinea by Mr. Ab-
bott. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Abbott said the Town-clerk ap-
plied to him to get poll-clerks—see question 2236; but the
Town-clerk, in reply to question 2334, said, " My course is
to leave it to Tyson, with instructions to attend to no re-
commendations." Let the council put these two statements
together, and say who was right. (Hear, hear.) To ques-
tion 2239, Mr. Abbott said, that it the Town-clerk gave a
poll-clerk a guinea, he (Mr. Abbott) got half : they divided.
The Town-clerk was asked if he had any knowledge of this,
anti he said, " No, I have not." Now, upon referring to
Mr. Tyson's evidence, he (Mr. Moore) found that in answer
to question 2347, there was quite an opposition ; for while
Mr. Abbott said the Town-clerk left the poll-clerks to him,
Mr. Tyson said it was left to him, and that he applied to
Mr. Abbott, or to attorneys' offices, to people out of em-
ployment, or to merchants' offices, for them. In his state-
ment, Mr. Abbott said he did not keep, although the infe-
rence was drawn from his own evidence, 12 or 14 clerks,
from which he wished it to be inferred that the report was
incorrect. He said his statement that he did keep 12 or 14
clerks referred only to an emergency in 1835, from which he
would wish it to be implied that he did no such thing; but,
on referring to his evidence, at question 2225, he (Mr.
Moore) found that he there said, in his flippant, bombastic
style, that he employed twelve or fourteen clerks, or, said
he, " as many as I can find seats for." (Hear.) Further,
on looking over the accounts, he (Mr. Moore) found, that out
of 16 poll clerks employed, Mr. Abbott had furnished eight,
and, of course, he pocketed eight half guineas by that trans-
action. (Hear. hear.) Then Mr. Abbott enjoyed a great
many privileges. He had the advantage of having even his
own clerks to work in the Town-hall : his clerks went there,
and wrote, and earned money for him, which the corporation
had to pay ; and he (Mr. Moore) found, on perusing the evi-
dence, that the corporation was an excellent paymaster to
Mr. Abbott; for he sent in his bill on the Thursday, and it
was paid on the Saturday. (Hear, hear.) That was for
work done within the building. He (Mr. Moore) wished to
call attention to another matter, since Mr. Abbott had
brought himself so prominently before the public, and wished
to throw discredit upon the report of the committee. He
had been in the habit of taking stationery from the Town-
hall to his own office. Now that did not rest on his (Mr.
Moore's) assertion ; for if the council would refer to ques-
tions 2232 and 2233, they would there find it recorded upon
his own evidence. At question 2312 the Town-clerk was
asked if he had any knowledge of this, and he said no. And
Mr. Abbott was in the habit of charging for paper too.
Mr. BOLTON said his impression was that when the paper
was found there was a less charge made for the sheet.
Mr. LLOYD said it was thus. Mr. Abbott had stated, that
for the last eighteen months he had been in the habit of di-
recting his clerks to go to the Town-hall for stationery when
it was wanted,for the Town-clerk's business ; but on looking
over some of his bills they were found to contradict him, for
stationery was charged for by him. The Town-clerk told the
committee he did not know that stationery was taken from
the office; but that if the work was done in the office sta-
tionery was supplied. Now Mr. Abbott, in his evidence, told
the committee that he charged a penny a sheet for paper.
The committee observed upon so much paper being charged
for, and that the Council was paying almost as much for a
sheet as for a quire, and on calling the Town-clerk in he knew
nothing of it. It was then that they ascertained that Mr.
Abbott took down stationery to his own office.
Mr. TURNER.—Do you mean that he took it for his own
purposes ?
Mr. LLOYD.—He charges for stationery; and we cannot
distinguish which is which.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORS resumed.—He had now disposed,
and he hoped satisfactorily, of the two grand arguments of
Mr. Abbott; but, if the council thought he had not, he was
prepared to go further into them. He had shown the council
that a great deal of Mr. Abbott's own evidence was contra-
dicted by the evidence of the Town-clerk and Mr. Tyson ;
and, therefore, he (Mr. Moore) thought that that report was
not only fair, but that it was mild—that the chairman had
drawn it up exceedingly mild—
Mr. EARLE.—Oh, sweet, indeed !
Mr. BumweEv-MoottE continued—lf the subject were fol-
lowed up, as it would be upon a future occasion, it would
then be shewn that the report had been drawn up, not in
the feeling which had been hinted at, but with a great dealof
mildness. (Hear, hear.) When they found such things
going on as these, that the corporate estate was managed in
such a mode as this, that the fees received in the office were
put into a bowl, that the bowl was placed upon a table, that
the fees were put into the bowl without being entered in any
book or a check kept—(hear, hear)—that at night the mo-
ney was counted, and the corporation got credit for what
was found there—he would ask the council whether this was
a state of things to be allowed any longer? If a merchant
were to have his business transacted in such a manner as
that, where would he be? Why be would very soon be in
the Gazette, and remain to the last day of his life an uncer-
tificated bankrupt. (Great applause.)
Mr. BRIGHT deemed it expedient to enter into some ex-
planations with regard to the work of the Borough Court
and Court of Requests' Committee. In the early part of
1836, he moved that an application be made to parliament
for an act to improve the working of the Borough Court,
and the proceedings ceased till an act was obtained. The
act came into force in August, and the committee had nothing
to do in the interim. The appointment of the treasurer was
reported.
Mr. Bwtmatv-AioowE.—How did you spend your time
between February and November ?
Mr. BRIGHT.—We had nothing to do.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—Then it ought to have been re-
gistered here.
Mr. AIKIN, after expressing his dissatisfaction with the
report, confirmed what Mr. Bright had stated with regard to
the Borough Court and Court of Requests' Committee hav-
ing had nothing to do till the act passed. After the act
passed, the committee met and proceeded to the election of
a chairman, which was the first thing recorded in the book.

Mr. 13ttAiattY-Mocittr..--Theti why are all these leaves
left blank? Here they are, sir! (Cheers.)
Mr. AIKIN.—To the innocent mind all things are inno-
cent. " Honi soil qui anal y perm."
Mr. PROCTER stated that Mr. Bolton, who was a member
of the Borough Court Committee of that day, stated in the
Paid Officers' Committee, that though he could not tell what
was done he knew that the Chairman made his own memoran-
da, and put them into his pocket. That was not the same
version as Mr. Aikin's and Mr. Bright's. If the committee
had appointed a chairman, why had not the other proceed-
ings been entered ? Why were these •1$ pages left blank ?
it must have been for some purpose.
Mr. BRIGHT said the committee had, in fact, done nothing
but given notice of their intention to apply to parliament.
Mr. BRAMECY-MOORE.—Then that ought to have been
recorded, but it is not.

Mr. BOLTON wished to say a word in explanation of an
observation by Mr. Procter. At the commencement of the
council proceedings in January 1836 several committees were
appointed, and among others the Paid Officers' Committee,
of which he was a member. The course of proceeding was
this—it was the duty either of the Town-clerk, a: the Clerk
of committees, to keep a record of all the proceedings of
Committees. It was thought advisable that this committee
should not be encumbered by any officer, because questions
might be put which it was desirable they should be kept ig-
norant of—therefore, of the preliminary enquiries, as to the
manner in which the officers discharged their duties, and so
on, there was no record whatever. There certainly was
none in the Paid Officers' Committee till the report was
published on the 2nd March, 1836.
Mr. PROCTER said that, from that, it was clear that the
memorandums spoken of were intended to be filed ; but still,
why were all these leaves left blank? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOLTON.—The documents themselves were handed
over for record, either to the Town Clerk or the Clerk of
Committees. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HonGsoN expressed his regret that there should have
bests so much personal discussion, but he' attributed that to
those who were commonly the great disturbers of the pro-
ceedings. He regretted the course which the debate had
taken, and he thought it would have been much better left
until the whole evidence was before them. He was satisfied,
however, that in the report, no more allusion to persons
than was necessary to illustrate the fact of their position ;
indeed, it would have been impossible to have conveyed an
idea of their situation without showing in whose department
the irregularities appeared, or where the want of system and
management existed. But there was one important point in
the report which • had forcibly struck him in reading it
over, and which seemed a subject for explanation. It
seemed to him important to have some statement of the
regulations under which the different officers were called
upon to conduct the duties committed to their charge,
which at present appeared to be a jumble, so that the council
might be enabled to arrive at a just conclusion. Now,
from the blank leaves, he thought he was justified in inferring
past mismanagement, and that the business of the corpora-
tion had been so utterly without rule and regulation, that
parties had been allowed to act just according to their own
self-will. And, though the council might be called upon to
make great changes, they must, nevertheless, deal very
leniently with those persons who had had no rule or regula-
tion. Let the cap fit where it ought. If the late dominant
party who had so long held power, had left the thing in such
a state .that there was neither rule nor regulation for the
officers to guide themselves by, who was to blame ? Surely
not the officers ; but the men who, in the true spirit of liber-
alism, first introduced reporters to publish their proceedings,
and who were afterwards the very first to complain of their
publication.
Mr. EARLE.-Oh, the Angel !
Mr. HODGSON said, that in order to enable the council to
make a just comparison, what was now most wanted, was the
evidence; and therefore he moved that the evidence, such as
had already been taken before the committee, and in conti-
nuation, such as should be taken before the committee, he
printed (not published) for the use of the members of the
council, and each member of the council be furnished with a
copy.
Mr. ASFINALL seconded the motion.

Mr. EARLE said they had sometimes heard a great deal
about the necessity for the practice of economy with regard
to the corporation funds. Upon my word, continued he, to
go and publish such a long ri gma, ole as this would be money
extremely ill spent. We can all read it if we like. As Mr.
Hodgson has had a slap at liberalism, and as I always take
pleasure in rapping at him when I can, I here state that no-
body cares one button top for what he says; and that he
knows. I tell him that from his own party ! I tell you
the truth, Sir ! (Great confusion, and cries of " Order.")
Mr. BIRKETT.—I think I know some little of the feeling
of the conservative party to which I have the honour to
belong—quite as much as Mr. Earle—and I can give a most
unqualified contradiction to what Mr. Earle has just stated.
(Cheers.)
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE spoke in high terms of the services
of Mr. Okill, and said that the reason of his absence from
the meetings of the committee was, that he had received per-
mission from the Finance Committee to be absent for a few
days while superintending the removal of his effects from,
Bootle to Childwall.
After some further discussion, Mr. Hodgson's motion for
printing the evidence was withdrawn, at the request of Mr.
LLOYD, who replied at considerable length upon the whole
case.
The motion proposed by Mr. Lloyd was then agreed to.
The last council of the municipal year was appointed to be
held on Saturday, the 29th instant, and the council separated
at four o'clock.

MEETING OF THE DOCK COMMITTEE. The weekly
mceting of the Dock Committee was held yesterday, when
the following members were present :—Messrs. Sands (chair-
man), Horsfall, Barclay, Middleton, Molyneux, Nicol, Holt,
Holmes, Aikin, Evans, Bulley, Tobin, Bold, ,Shand, and
Mellor. A deputation from the Shipbuilders' Association,
consisting of Mr. Wilson, Mr. Royden, and Mr. Milchrist,
were introduced ; and also the North and South Harbour-
masters, and Mr. M`Bricie (master of Clarence Dock), for
the purpose of laying before the committee their opinions
upon the proposed lengthening of the Clarence South Graving
Dock. The dock officers were unanimously opposed to it,
on the ground that it would interfere with the working of the
Clarence dock ; the deputation then pointed out the mode by
which all the alleged inconvenience might be obviated, and
strongly impressed upon the committee the necessity for in-
creased graving dock accommodation. The parties then re-
tired, and the committee, after having deliberated upon their
testimony, decided, by a majority of nine against six, that
the graving dock should be lengthened, but the consideration
of the exact length, whether for three or four ships, was
posponed till Thursday next. Some explanations were then
entered into respectinewarehouses upon the dock quays with
reference to Sir John Hall's opinion thereon ; and Mr.
Bold, in justification of what he had stated at a former
meeting upon the insurance of them, produced a letter from
Mr. Hamilton, of London, secretary to one of the offices
there, who stated that the objectionable character of ware-
houses would materially increase the risk, and consequently
the premium of insurance in them. The committee then se-
parated,

MUNICIPAL ELECTION.—The following is, to the best of
our information, a list of the candidates declared to come
forward at the approaching municipal contest:—
Wards. Conservatives. Radicals.
1. Everton .
2. Scotland
3. Vauxhall
.
4. St. Paul's Thompson Deakin
5. Exchange North Mellor

6. Castle-street
7. Gibraltar

8. Pitt-street.
9. Great George *Royden None
10. Rodney-street J. N. Wood None
11. Abereromby .

12. Lime-street
13. Saint Anne's
14. West Derby . tPlumpton None
xteth 15. South To
_ _

16. North Toxteth Sheppard None
* We beard last night that Mr. Robinson does not come
forward again.

We have not mentioned Mr. J. Smith as a candidate,
anticipating his retirement before the Ist of November.

BOY RUN OVER.—As a cart loaded with coal was passing
Chisenhall-bridge yesterday, a lad, about twelve years old,
seeing a stone before the wheel of the cart went to remove
it, when unfortunately his foot slipped, and the wheel passed
along his leg and ancle, horribly mutilating both. The un-
fortunate sufferer was removed to the Hospital.
EXTENSIVE ROBBERY.—Yesterday, two men and four wo-
men—Charles Livingston, John Wilson, (real name Blake,)
Margaret Rowlands, Elizabeth Simpkins, and Elizabeth Jen-
kins,—were placed at the bar of the police-court, on a charge
of having stolen a quantity of boots and shoes from a shop in
Park-lane, while the family were at church. A young woman
stated that she lived as servant on the premises, which were
kept by Mrs. Mary Nichol. She left the house at a quarter
before six o'clock on Sunday evening. No one else was in
when she left. The back door was fast, and leaving the gas
in the shop burning a little, she shut the door, which has a
snap-lock. She returned at a quarter past eight o'clock, and
found the door open and the place in darkness. She became
alarmed, and on procuring a light found that the shop had
been broken into, and that the shelves bad been stripped of a
large quantity of boots and shoes. A statement of the
missing property as handed soon afterwards to the po-
lice, and printed and distributed next morning amongst
the pawnbrokers, was then handed in. It included 31
pairs of women's boots, and men's, women's, and chil-
dren's shoes—amounting in all to about 46 pairs.—In-
spector Savage stated, that on hearing some information
of the robbery, he went to the prisoner's, (Margaret Row-
lands,) who keeps a public-house in Frederick-street, corner
of Dickenson-street. A man of whom he was in search had
left the house, but he found in the cellar, under a cask, eight
pairs of women's boots (produced.) He observed that Mrs.
Rowlands was uneasy, and wished to leave the cellar with
something she had in her hand, but he would not allow
her, and she afterwards dropped a bag, containing a
number of pawn-tickets (produced.) The boots were
identified by Mrs. Nichol, as her property. A shawl, in
which some of them were, was also produced, and though
not at first missed from Mrs. Nichol's, was identified as also
her property.—lnspector Fresh also went to the house, and
amongst a quantity of rags found three pairs of boots,
which were identified, and also two pairs more under a large
cask. Another inspector found others of the articles on the
same premises.—A little girl, servant to the prisoner Mrs.
Rowlands, said the two male prisoners lodged in the house.
Livingston and the other man both came to the house on
Sunday night, and brought the boots and shoes. They
asked her mistress to allow them to be put into the cellar,
and she consented, and told witness to take them there,
which she .did. On Monday she was sent to; bring
them out of the cellar, which she did. Mrs.' Simpkin
and her mistress were in the kitchen, and also Living-
ston. The females tried some of them on. (It afterwards
appeared that the two females had each a pair of the
boots on when they were apprehended.) The witness, by
direction of Mrs. Rowland's, afterwards pledged another
pair.—A considerable number of pawnbrokers, with whom
boots had been pledged, were then successively called. With
all of them a pair or more of boots had been pledged—chiefly
by the prisoner Simpkin (who had a child in her arms), and
was generally accompanied by one or other of the female
prisoners, against all of whom the evidence as to participation
in the robbery was sufficiently strong to satisfy the bench.
The whole of the boots, produced were identified by
Mrs. Nichol, or some of the family; and all of them were
recovered with the exception of about six pairs. The pri-
soners were all committed for trial at the sessions. On; of
the male prisoners, in particular, is well known as an old
offender ; and Mrs. Rowlands, it will be remembered, was,
last year, tried, convicted, and suffered six months' imprison-
ment for being concerned in stealing or receiving a carpet
which was found in her cellar.

The King of Bavaria has established Chambers of:Com-
merce in each of his towns.

Leave of absence to an officer cannot now be given without
the express sanction in writing of his Grace the Duke of
Wellington.

The Castellano of Madrid states, that a priest of Rivadavia
has just died at the age of 112. This man, during the latter
years of his life, made seven meals a-day. smoked in the
same period twenty-four cigarettes, and took half an ounce
of snuff.

Doubts are now expressed by several of the French jour-
nals whether, after all the enormous expense that has been
incurred relative to the Artesian well in Paris, it can be made
of any practical use. A few days ago the water was said to
be as clear as crystal, but it is now stated that a good deal of
sand is mired with it.

TO CORRESPONDENTS.

We have ea received the Manchester Chronicle for several
weeks.
"J. Fl." The verses of this writer, although pretty, do
not come up to our standard.
" Ignotus Haud Ignarns" is unreasonable, but we can afford
to pass by his ignorant and ill-natured remarks.
Some poetry and a letter from " Anglo Catholicus" stand
over.
We were unable to send the papers by the first post on Tues-
day last, which will account for any irregularity in their
delivery to our country subscribers.
We are sorry to have given " An Episcopalian" unnecessary
offence. The difference between us is extremely slight;
and we feel persuaded that if the question to which he
alludes were argued by us, the entire point of differ•-
ence would resolve itself into a dispute about words.
NON TALI Auxielo.—Our correspondent, we dare say, is
quite right with respect to the cause which is said to have
influenced Mr. Robinson, of Great George's-street, in
withdrawing his pretensions to represent that ward. The
support of such a journal as that to which he refers, would
damn any candidate.
The Correspondent who offers us, for the purpose of being
lithographed, a drawing of Mr. William Earle in the fight-
ing attitude which he assumed towards Mr. David Hodg-
son, on Wednesday's council, is thanked. The exhibition
of lulus nature in Leigh-street would be his market, if
he could manage the subject in wax work.
We are compelled to postpone " A Few Thoughts on Wednes-
day's Council;" and when we do insert them, we shall
take the liberty of changing the title. The public is nau-
seated with the balderdash which appears thus headed in
the columns of a contemporary; and as our correspondent
is evidently " a thinking man," and not a mere jay in the
feathers of an owl, we shall not subject his communication
to the suspicion of emanating from a similar silly source.
To a correspondent who addresses us for the purpose of re-
plying to the circular, recently issued by Mr. James
Abbott, and commented upon by various Radical contem-
poraries, we say, read the able exposition of this per-
son's conduct, given by Mr. Bramley-Moore, in Wednes-
day's council. After such a tomahawking, Mr. Abbott
looks quite as foolish—and something else—as our corres-
• pondent could possibly wish him. By this time we dare
say the 44 Clerk to the Clerk of Committees" has intimated
as much to his double, the law stationer.
A charge of inconsistency, such as that referred to by" S J,"
who reiterates a few of the witticisms of Mr. Alderman
Earle, is easily brought, but in this instance is not very
easily proved. Mr. Parker, in his remarks before the
Birkenhead Commissioners, argued for the stoppage of the
steam-boats on Sundays during the hours of divine service,
and we are not aware that he offered the slightest obstacle
to the closing of the public-houses during the same period,
but on the contrary, was always anxious they should be so
closed. Paobably, if Mr. Parker were afforded an oppor-
tunity, he could place the matter in a stronger light than
this ; but we merely state the circumstances as they strike
us at the moment, for the satisfaction of our correspondent.
Mr. Parker is pursued with unrelenting hatred not only
by his unscrupulous opponents, but is sometimes ungene-
rously assailed by parties who profess to be guided by the
same principles as himself. Let him, however, persevere,
and he will obtain the support of all whose opinion or
good wishes are of the slightest value.

ETA' Ribtrpool tan Darb.

FRIDAY MORNING, OCTOBER 21, 1842.

In the speech of Mr. George Hall Lawrence, at the
recent meeting in West Derby Ward, there is one

position in particular to which we cannot at all accord
our assent; and yet, from the frequency with which it
has been put forward by the same gentleman, both in
the Council and out of it, we suspect that it is viewed
by him as incontrovertible. Mr. Lawrence is " sorry

that the Council has interfered at all in the question of
education ;" that it has undertaken to provide educa-
tion of any description for the poor of the borough.
It ought not to be " an educating body;'' but why it
ought not Mr. Lawrence gives no reason, good or bad ;
and we are therefore left to surmise and to suspect
that the real objection is the inconvenient necessity
which is imposed upon hesitating and wavering Con-
servatives to make up their minds with respect to the
nature of the education to be afforded.

Putting out of view, for the present, the question as
to the system of education to be adopted in the schools
of the Corporation, we must maintain, in direct oppo-
sition to the opinion of that gentleman and those who
think with him, that it is both good and proper that
the Council should be "an educating body." It is
the bounden duty of the Council to provide for the
education of the community for whose local wants it
legislates. We deem it indeed almost criminal, and at
any rate most unwise, in any body similarly consti-
tuted, to neglect so important a duty. Better, undoubt-
edly, than any sanitory regulations; and better than
the most effective police—more conducive to the end
which these merely restrictive engines have in view—
is the diffusion of sound scriptural education amongst
the people. All experience goes in support of this
assertion ; and for a public body, invested with the
responsibility and the power of providing for the
health, the morality, and the security of a large
_corn-
munity, to confine its views to merely watching and
paving, to police and prison regulations, whilst it
neglects the far more important and effective aid
which the diffusion of sound scriptural education
would afford even to the temporal objeCts which they
contemplate, is, we repeat, unwise, and almost cri-
minal.

And well indeed would it be for the nation, and for
mankind, if the principle for which we here contend
had been universally acted upon. For to what, let us
ask, is to be attributed the mass of immorality, and
consequent misery, which is to be witnessed amongst
our large towns; and which is at this moment im-
posing upon ourselves the necessity of erecting an ad-
ditional prison at an expense of not less than one hun-
dred and fifty pounds ? To this. We have drawn toge-
ther, by our commerce or our manufactures, large numbers
of our fellow-beings, to toil for us; and we have restricted
the guardianship offered them by the law to a mere care
for their bodily wants and their bodily safety We
have either given to the population around us no
education at all, or that which is almost worse than
none. We have never sought or adopted the proper
means to make that population a Christian population
and the result is before our eyes—in our expensiv
police, our gigantic workhouses, and our crowded
prisons. The want of sound scriptural teaching to
the children of their poor in time past, is the source of
the crime and want which pervades them. Schools,
not prisons, should be the remedy. And we ask, i 8
any government, local 9r national, a wise government,
which shall tell us, with `Zr. Lawrence,—we are a
watching, lighting, and imprisoning body, but it is
beyond our duty to become " an educating body" ?
The Council cannot better work out its acknowledged

legitimate objects than by promoting the education of
the people—than by becoming an instructor of the
children of the poor; and, this admitted, we come to
the question,—what is the nature of the instruction
which it is bound to provide ? 'What, in fact, 0
EDUCATION, viewed as an instrument to effect the
purposes which all governing bodies have in view--
the increased comfort, morality, and security of the
people ? We answer, SCRIPTURAL TEACHING, not
because the law enjoins that it should be such—that it
should be, in fact, more than this, a teaching in the
Scriptures as interpreted by the Church of :England ;
but because experience has proved that none other is
efective, even for the purposes of the utilitarian him
sett' ! For mere secular education, we entertain a
prOfound contempt. It never made a man WISER, in
the true acceptation of the word, or BETTER.

In this opinion we find ourselves confirmed by a
powerful contemporary, the London Times, who has
of late devoted his valuable columns to the advance-
ment of a system of scriptural education by her
Majesty's Council.
" The most acute memory for facts," wrote that journal.
on Wednesday last, " the most cunning skill in art, and the
most rapid and comprehensive, nay, even the most cultivated
power of investigating the depths and intricacies of science'
are quite compatible with the most consummate rascality--
quite compatible with the most finished immorality—the
most subtle and irreligious faithlessness. We do not, of
course, mean to say that a diligent training in the arts and
sciences does not tend to refine, or even to purify, the mind ;
and we should be the very last persons to say that such train-
ing, when well directed, and made a subordinate part of a
sound system of teaching, is not the greatest and roost
powerful of moral agents ; but by itself it is, as we see in its
too frequent results, quite capable of co-existing with the
worst immorality. And when it becomes not a discipline•
but a mere dry teaching of facts, as e.g. the distance to the
moon, the right ascension of Sirius, or the existing of
HERCULES or WAT TYLER, its moral effects are even rather
pernicious than otherwise. A little knowledge is then found►
as in a late memorable case, to be a dangerous, a very danger-
ous thing."

Nor is that neutral kind of instruction in religion,
towards which the feelings of Mr. George Hall
Lawrence are evidently wandering, much better that,
mere secular education. On this point, too, perhaps,
he may be desirous of hearing the opinion of the same
writer.

" The plain practical view of the case is, that this sort of
neutral knowledge can neither make a boy better nor worse.
Let people open their eyes to the fact that the greatest rascals
have been in many instances extremely proficient in their
acquaintance even with Scriptural facts. A man who bunts.
through the whole sacred volume in search of what he think*

4