The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-06-26 00:00:00

THE STATEN

try. Alwayi feeling they were a conqsdfid4teri*-tilf,
would more sensibly feet thenssolves efegraid. if the re-
settee of the Lord Lieutenant:was trithirmen. Itlmpateon,
age of the Government of Ireland, if transferred from
' 1.-prove a amines detriment to the better° classes
y. The Hon. Member laid down that the buil.
relied was se trivial, that it.could be throWn Into

of socie
ness of

.Ibe ',Greet the Cbief Secretary.bere, without.giving aey
great incumbrance. As for big .part, be thought such
an arrangement impossible,or if it were not so it would
t4rinjoire the appointment of another Secretary.tead -tie;
natal office to •be exclusively occupied in • the oaks of
Ireland. The lion. Member also *aid. that though discihethified with one Lord .Liestenant in Ireland, he wo
'Objection to thirty-two,'one to preside over every county,
including in their own .persons, all civil and military je-
&diction. He Also, proposed Secretary of State for
Ireliad, bet bow was that officer .to .obtain infor-
Motion without having some oonfidential person
hem whom be might receive correct laformatioo. •It
weeeldatot be fit that all comosisaication should depend
OPireports, or from unaccredited people. Thu Honore-
able.Member introduced Scotland astao example,, hut be
(Air. 0.) was not willing to admit .that there me Any
analogy, la the ease. it was.propoaed .that &resident of-
firer in Ireland would answer all the purposes of Govern-
ment of that country in conjuaction with .this. The
"station then would arise, told ,varioss opinions which
could not be well reconciled. He wished to observe in
this place, on the statements of the Hon. bleaker with
respect to the appointment of Protestants only to all 4-1
hoes. Instances had been riven from the Stamp 000Lp
bat it would appear en inquiry, that in that deperteesna
some Roman Catholic names were to be foetid. He we-
Minty could not deny that the greater number of all cep
pointinents was from Protestants, because the estublielst
mint itself was Protestant ; but he would deny that sat'
'favour was shown, or an inquiry ever made when a per-
son was recommended ,to othm, whether be was or was
nets Roman Catholic. He would not say much more,
but merely_recapitulate the heads of his opposition to thi
motion. With regard to expenditure be was ready to ad-
mit that some saving might be made, but it was totally
immaterial in companion with the general value of the
residence of a Cbief Governor in Instead. With regard
to the plan of referring the subject to the Commissioners
of Irish Inquiry, if any thing could make the Govern-
ment of Ireland disregarded by the people, it would be
such a plan. The question was of too great importance
to be left to a Pazliumentary Commission ; if it was to
'be agitated at all, the House of Commons itself was the
proper tribunal to decide. From the different reasons
which he had urged, be felt himself compelled to vote
against the proposition of the Hon. Member.
Sir H. PARNELL said that the office of Lord Lieute-
nant had within late years acquired a new aspect. Its
military jurisdiction was some time since removed colitis
country. If so efficient government was required, the
present system was far from being so. A great reliance
was placed by the Hon. Secretary on the impossibility of.
procuring satisfactory intelligence from Ireland, if the
seat of its government were removed hither. But lie did
pot see what value could be placed on the correspondents
of the Lord Lieutenants of Ireland, whose communica-
tions have appeared on the table. From one place was
found a police officer's letter ; from another a magistrate's,
whom no one beard of; and in no one instance were
letters from noblemen or gentry of consequence to bet
found. A great stress was laid on the regard due to the
feelings of the people of Ireland, but he believed tbm
they bad no attachment to the office of a resident Load
Lieutenant. It was a question with him whether the
acts oftlovernment were not weakened io their tran.unis-
*ion through him. The City of Dublin, which was sup.
posed to be most interested, would continue to increase
so prosperity, as it had done since the Union. The int-
ports into Dublin were greater by oue million a year for
the last five years, than before the Union. That increase
arose on an import of two millions and a half. On all
points be was decidedly iu favour of the motion.
Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the motion, and said the very
mention of the withdrawing of the Lord Lieutenant in
Dublin, would almost raise a rebellion.
Mr. PEEL said, that haviug held one of the offices pro-
posed to be abolished, he thought he might say a few words
on the subject to the House. He ventured to contend that
Ireland was not in a state at present to dispense with a local
Executive Government. The question was not one of ex-
pense, but of expediency. Retrenchment was at all times
desirable, but in a question of such magnitude as the pre-
sent, he thotight the saving of a few thousands yearly too
paltry a consideration. Of all the evils, however, which
world attend this consolidation of the Executives of the two
countries, one of the greatest appeared to him to be the
total absence of a controlling power over the administration
of the Government in Ireland in its details. It was impos-
sible that this subject could receive the same attention from
the United Parliament, sitting at a greet distance, that it
would from a controlling power immediately upon the spot.
The consequence therefore must be, a devolving of that
power now exercised by the Lord Lieutenant upon indivi-
duals in Irelend.—(Hear.) For how was such a conse-
quence to be guarded against t The Hon. Member p'ro-
posed to assign over the duties of the Lord Lieutenant to the
Secretary for the Home Department. He (Mr. P.) did not
object to this plan, because of the increase of trouble which
it might bring upon himself personally ; yet he would say
one word on the additional labour which it brought on the
office; he wished the House to consider the great increase
of population in Ireland—the increase of duties in England,
Scotland and Wales—,the obligations of attending all day
In an office, and during the Session the greater part of the
night in the House—but above all, the large proportion of
the Secretary's time which was taken up in administering
the prerogative of mercy, where every ease was to be ex-
amused by himself personally, and he was sure they would
not say that it was an office from which a larger portion of
labour and application might be reasonably expected. Un-
der such circumstances, then, was it not probable the affairs'
of Ireland, which were those that required most attention,
Would be postponed to more immediate claims of interest at
Me" backed by all the Winona, of Noblemen on the spot,
and into which the Secretary might himself be disposed to
enter, from local knowledge of the affair.—(Hear.) Eves
with the most conseientions Secretary of State, this might
happen, for he would have every consideration to induce him
to look to domestic concerns, whilst the distance of Ireland,
his unacqualotauee with the bearings of every local goes-
floe, and the little coolidence which he could place hi the
purity of his source* of intonation. would Naturally in-
dispose him to he very zealous in examining into Irian, or
compere:rely, foreign questions. On this account, there.
fore,tbe amalgamation of the Executives was to ho depre-
'rated, as the natural result must be, that, of all thesor-
tions of the empire, Ireland would be that lent attended
to. Let the House only look at the administration of
plaice alone in Ireland, and they would see some of the
inconveniences which would attend the proposed plan.
They were aware that, in all applications fur mercy, the
case was examined by the Secretary of State himself, andl
, in almost every rase there was a second trial ; for some of
the parties tried to prove en alibi, and others set up
varilois defences, upon which it was the bu'siness of the
Secretary ultimately to pronounce. Now this portion of
public business for England already occupied a large por-
tion of the Secretary's time; but if the Irish ba.ioess was
added to it, a groat share of it must go unattended to al-
together. Fiie during hat year there wire no less than
6,312. convictions took place' in Ireland, and in every case 1
of these the parties might have made an application for
mercy. (item.) In fact„2,4oo bad actually made suck
applies:toe% end hi 400 cases the capital convictions bad
brio set aside. Added to this very important consider.
'atiOn was soother., nentely,.the impossibility of a Secre•
taq residing in London, having the local luformatioal
ouch trio wow% so his ceecting the duties of his
°lke ;. 0150'1 istetligeoce of al kinds was vadiralkt.
rrot so much for ite,sobetance as for the astbratigiv of
tn. boor)*
:front which 'the Seen., lux foe the
nowt tforattetent, it naught be expeetect, wanid ba ip

lAN.

111indb: till it was spate Imptimllllo lit. With the
otothei; badness on his bands; IS chid(' give the
`doe- titre of alttretion to a conntrysiltete &000 °envie.
tioni took place yearly. To exemplify this by a single
instance, beteotild.put the case of the proclaiming of a
disturbed county to Ireland. Suppose six Magistrates
f Yid `adkiteased the .Srceetaty, deicing that a county
Ist .be proclaimed; it might be that all the facts
kited by them were true. and, yet it would be most im-
peller to resort to-so- sevetetteavitit. Itiias therefore
nary that the Seermaryikeild biewestme local in
formation, in order to. set a peeper value open the docu
meat Whichliad been addressed to hies. Again, if 'tlk
difficatties of increased hilliest tvtte tot *ter, and that
an Assistant. Solitary was eppolatedr for Ireland, the
whale benefit of the affairs Of the lieu want ries being ['o-
der tee bead would Tdierez would. be cremated a
second tribunal. of to4rAlidttil jerbiffirticia, add all jia
tansies' arising lento a divldtio dt Power would be the
consequence. Ileirdes the• power tif the Secretary of
State, as to Ireland, would be still to be marked out,
Whilst on the other hand the jurisdiction of the Lord
Lieutenant, sod the Secretary of State were already well;
defined, sad there was no clashing of interests, for ihn
King's ordevs were now conveyed to the Lord Lieutenant,
of Ireland through the Secretary of State. If a second
Secretary oat State was appointed for Ireland, be must
spend owe half of the year in London, attending his do-
dos In Paelladient ; for there codkl not be one Secretary
in the Flamer; and- another 'actively engaged, since it was
contrary le thirConstirdtion that one Man should be re-
sponSiblitor ti e acts of another. This new Secretary
would therefore lose all the advantages of a •residence in
Ireland, sidce he would be obliged to spend half the year
here.
Ms. ARRRCROIdBY—So he doesit present.
Mr. PEEL--Bdt.whits be is here, his master, the Lord
Lieutenant, is beyond, on. the spot.—(Year.) On the
grounds, therefore, that a resident superior power was ne-
cessary in Ireland ; he contended that this motion could not
be seceded to. If there was not a resident eontrouling
power, the duties must devolve upon inferior individuals in
Ireland. The Hon. Member had firgeetthitthe residence
of the Secretsry.in London was particularly desirable, as he
weeld be free from the failuentedf party spirit, which pre-
veiled in betend. If this wan true, the ifileglish Secretaries
ought to go to reside in Dublin, since Lottdoe woe the great
usenet faction and petty—(a laugh); or rather Holyhead
would be the proper station for the irieh Secretary, since he
would be there free from all sinister influences, except, in-
deed, thoseof the good people of Wales—(Laughing.) It
was argued, as a reason for abolishing the office of Lord
Lieutenant, that it had lost a great share of its petronageo—
However true this was, in some degree, it wee no less true,
that the Lord Lieutenant still retained as much power to ap-
point to all useful (Arse in the Slate as be ever possessed:—
The appointment of Officers of the Revenue had certainly
been tram ferred from the Lord Lieuteuant to the Board of
Excise, it being St that that body which was responsible for
the collection of the Revenue, should have the choosing of
their own officers. But it mattered little to the public ins-
meditt• ly, whether the Ofßeers ofthe Revenue were pure or
not. Whilst, therefore, the Lord Lieutenant retained in his
hands the power of appointing to offices in the Law, and in
the Church, he contended that leis power was madimielsbed
for all useful imposes. it was quite impossible that to
Finglish Secretary residing here could possess au adequate
knowledge of the candidates for the highest offices in the
Church and Law.—(Hear.) Under any circoinstawees, there-,
fore, but more especially under the present, when the greater
part of Ireland was subjected to an extraordinary species of
dominion, and when its disorders exceeded those of any
other known period of history, was it unwise to withdraw its
local Government?—(lietr.) If it required alt the aerveof
the arm of power to suppress these disorders hitherto, whet
was to be expected 'when the resident osntrowittrg influence
over the police was taken away And then, if it was expo-
dieet to dispense with the office of Lord Lieutenant, surly
no one could stand up and say, that Commissioners should
be sent over to inquire into what changes might be made in
it. Did the Hon. Member reflect for a moment upon the ef-
fect which the arrival of Commissioners for that purpose
might produce in the country? The Irish were not phiioso-
phr:s, nor was he disposed to say that they would come to
wrong conclusions hastily, but he wouid assert that thug
could draw so other inference from seek a circumstance, thew
that the office of Lord Lieutenant bad been entirety taperer
dad.--(lisar, hear.) If Commissioners were to be asst at
all, he would advise the removal of the Lord Lieutenset at
once, for it was better to have a Secretary of Statiabeee
sespicioe, than a Lord Lieutenant whose Joliette& must be
necessarily weakened by Use suspicion which such an lie-;
quiry would imply of his coaduct.—(Hear.) For all these,
reasons he opposed the motion.
Mr. ABERCROM BY confessed he found much dffir.l
cuhy.in expressing an opinion upon this subject. He,
certainly could not vote for the removal of the Lord Lies-'
tenant at present. but that did not preclude him frees
giving an opinion on the general question as to the best
mode of administering the affairs of Ireland. Looking
at the consideration doe to Ireland, he could not but say.
that she was entitled to a 'local government ; but the way
In which they were to view the question was, by the light
of the experience which past Oevernment afforded them.
Looking at it in this way, it was obvious to him that the
good governing of Ireland required some officer at the
head more identified with the Cabinet at home titan a
Lord Lieutenant was. It was simply because the con-
tending parties in Ireland felt that the fate of the Lord
Lieutenant did not decide the fate of the Administration

in England, that so much opposition had been made to
him. As to the details of such an arrangement, that
was another question; but be did not see where the diffi-
culty was.. Indeed, he confessed, that the difficulties
had considerably diminished since he had heard the op.
position of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT declared it to be his opinion'
that no measure could he conceived more calculated to,
increase dissatisfaction and trouble in Ireland than what
was proposed by this motion. If a Commission of such
a natbre were appointed, the Lord Lieutenant could not
bold his power for one hour longer. Not only he could
not, but, in his opinion, he ought not. So far from re-
lieving Ireland from the contentions of parties. it would
throw them completely into the hands of parties headed
by powerful individuals of either side. This was not the
policy pursued in the wisest reign of the English mo-
narchy with regard to Ireland ; for in the reign of Queen
Elizabeth, so far from takiag the Lord Deputy from Ire-
land in the time of trouble, it was deemed right to send
the Lord President into the disturbed provinces, that he
might be near the scene of action to take measures ac-
imedingly. Ile had no interest in the question either
way; he had long biren a Member of Parliament, and
hag lived in Irelani4..iind his duties in either capacity
towards. his native country must soot in the worse of
SMUTS cease; hot he was convinced that tech a measure
'as this would only irritate the feelings of his country-
men, and plunge the whole country still deeper in war-
' dry. That this would be the only effect of it he was
(convinced. and he should, therefore, vote against the
Hon. Member's motion with as much satisfaction as ever
be gave a vote in hi. life.
Mr. S ••cretary GASSING said, he felt no difficulty in'
'l:termini:lg to which of the testimony of the two lion.
tSleuebtrs opposite, both competent to give an opinion
en this subject, be should incline. 11/logjam, however,
•conflicting t-stisnotiv to the test of general prineiptear
he must confess, th:t possibly at no time, peobahly at
I no near time, and eertsiely nut at the peasant time,.
rvout he think it right to dispense with the Inset gn.
erement of Ireland. lie would 'oppose such an act al
i done, and long passed, in what state would' Hutt comv-
tty be as to Government, without one official person
competent in that House,' to answer for any one measure.
Ile might be said Hut laced information. was of no peril.-
oa'ar use in llovertnneut i but this very Niutioi 11161140!
kris that they did. not think it min to proceed one dale
`in the case without seeding-a Crunaniionot to collect ford
information. of which to found the plan' of fintentioa
rev:meat of traratt Wm, avonptir •to Mir system,

it must he in every crisis; theymust send a succession
of Lord Lieutenants, in the shape of a Commireon, to
gather information. with all the difficulties which a
perturbed state of the country most place in the way.
(Hear, hear.)—lf inch local knowledge were necessary
to the well governing of a country, he bad rather it
should be gathered gradually and imperceptibly, from
the-silent careen% of-effairs, than by -fits -and ensteltes„
each as lie had described. —(Hear,hear.)--Sueir, a coarse
as the Hon. Member proposed. would throw the Doyens-
Mint bird the binds of the heads Of and renew
that syitern of andertiking aid& lied been of so much
evil to Ireland. He did not mean to -say that finance
ought to be a goveroilg motive in a case of this nature;
lout he certainly could not leave one of view, nor think
It a light evil that the capital of Ireland should be de-
prived of the expenditure of 100,0001. tog•ether with the.
expenditure attendant ou the presence of a Court. The
removal of the Lord-Lieutenant would. he thought,
break the link betwixt this country and Ireland, and
aggravate existing sore feeling and distress, where griev-.
ances were sufficiently sore, and distreises 5116c1-enlist
pressing. As to the proposed inquiry, he thought it
would be more mischievous than the removal.
t Mr. DAWSON opposed the motion. He stated the
inconveniences that would arise to the public service,
as well as to the trade of the metropolis of Ireland, from
the removal of the Lor'l Lieutenant. He considered the
motion to be roost impolitic.
Mr. It. MARTIN said, *hat he was one of the indi-
viduals who took a part in bringiag about the Union,
He remenibered that a compact wns concluded on thit
occasion, that a permanent Lord Lieutenant should al-
ways reside in Ireland. Ile was much surprised, after
the pompous advertisement put forth by the Hon. Geo.
demon, to find that he had so very thin a benefit. He
considered the motion improper and most mischievous.
Mr. O. HUTUHINSON saind. he slitrold consider it a
great calamity tae pteseti. t agitated state of ere_
land the'Hoiree should cast any implitatiOn or embarrass-
talent on the administration of the Marquess Wellesley.
He should not, therefore, vote for the motion. But if
thit Noble Person were not to be permitted to govern
Irelantieemirdirag to his own views of what was fit fdr
that country, ft would be roach better that he should
be rernoved. As to the extent of the military establish-
ment in Ireland ; the netts*, of keeping up this cite-
bildrineut did trot Mfea.from thy profligacy in the trials
character, hitt froin'iltricedditionof the people, which was
brought about by ihe long syitein of Misrule.
Sir O. HILL said that it•uould be unforutnate for Ire-
land, if Lord Wellesley were removed ; for it repaired the
powers of his great mind to balance between the parties
which distracted that country. lac was prepared to vote
against the motion.
Mr. HUME replied. Re dni not see how his motion
conic* be oensidered as a reflection on the adminietratitio
of Lord Wellesley. He would satisfy the Hen. flentlernin
who entertained fuels a notion, by expressly disavowing
such an intention in his motion. Neither the Secretary
for Ireland, nor the Secretary for the Home D. partineut,
bad understood his meaning. They both rode off on
horses which he never mounted. lie did contend that
the Duties of Secretary could be performed in London.
Though there would be a saving of 130,4100/.. yet that
would be only a trivial part of the benefit to arise from
the measure. lie said lie bad no objection to alter his
motion. so far as to leave oat the words " Commissioners
to inquire," and substitute this words that " this House
considers."

' The 111061111 was then put in its original form, and t.e-
gatived withont a division.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, his object was to engage the
House in another Session of Parhament, to inquire into
the general state of education in Ireland, so es to ascer-
tain what had already been done, and what remained to
be accomplished. Ile believed they were all agreed, that
by more generally diffusing the blessing of education,
the condition of Ireland might be expected to be amelio-
rated. The Right Hon. Baronet entered into an histo-
rical recital of the measures adopted in connection with
this:subject at different periods and under successive
Governments. He then took a view of the returns made
relative to the Diocesan and Parochial Schools, There
were no returns from the four dioceses of Armagh, Dub-
lin, Tuam and Cashel, end in many parts from which
returns had been made the schools were fear, and of these
but a small number were kept by clergymen. Ile con-
chided by moving two Resolutions to the following
effect :--.

That this House, deeply impressed with the serious
responsibility thrown on Parliament, for promoting, by
every possible means, the general instruction of the peo-
ple, will, at the commencement of the ensuing Session,
canoe a full and accurate inquiry to be made into the
state of Diocesan and Parochial Schoo's, and also into
the state of those on Royal foundations, with a view of
extending to the whole community the essential blessing
of education, without regard to any religious distinc—
tions, by making those funds furnished by public bounty
or private munificence available for the purposes to which.
they were intended to be applied, subject to no restrictions
but such as the will of the donor or Parliament should
specially direct.
That in order to facilitate this important inquiry, returns
of the state of all Parochial and Diocesan Schools, and
Schools on Royal foundations, are ordered to be prepared to
be laid before this House, specifying the manner in whicis•
the sums granted by Parliament iu the ten yeari last pad
have been applied.
GOULSURN bad intended to offer no observations
on this motion, and agreeing with the Right lion. Baronet
generally, it gave hies pain to differ from him with respect to
his first Resolution. He had no objection to have all the
facts laid before Parliament which the Right Hon. Baronet
wished to obtain, bat he thought It inexpedient for the House
to give in one Session for what it would do in another.
Next Session he bad uo idea that he should object to the
appointment of a Committee on this subject, but to give the
plodg. now called for, would in some degree embarrass the
Houle, sod ebild don nod.
ble.lll . gicit , the promise of the Right Honourable
Clentlpilniltirife sen him great satisfaction. No person
who looSid to the effect of education in Ireland could doubt
the result.
Sir J. NEWPORT also expressed himself satisfied with
the promise of the Right Hon. Gentleman. With the leave
of the Hoeft, he should withdraw his resolution.
After a few words from Mr. PEEL and Mr. 0111A1C4 the
Resolution was withdrawn.
The Labour of Convicts' Bill was read the third time, sad
Pasted.