The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-01-07 00:00:00

beep pursued merely from party purposes, only because it
had been adopted by committees not composed of men hold-
ing the same politics as those now in the room. The fact
may be denied, but it cannot be disproved that the great aim
of the present committee is to force the catholics out of the
schools. (Land cries of " no, no.") The gentlemen say no,
no ; then why frame regulations which you know will have
that effect ?
Mr. GLADSTONE.—They will not have that effect.

Mr. Alderman EARLE.2-It will be your turn by and bye,
Mr. Gladstone, and I shall listen to what you have to say
with infinite satisfaction. Now I think it would be a much
fairer proposition to say at once that it was inexpedient that
catholic children should be educated under the same rocf
with the protestants. That would have been more straight-
forward, manly, and honourable conduct ; that would have
been a species of conduct that your constituencies out of
doors, not mine, would have understood, and moreover, know
how to appreciate. But by this underhand sort of work they
know not one from the other. I like straightforward conduct.
Now I believe there are many men among you that do not
entertain these unjust ideas, and there would be more if
their better judgments had not been interfered with by that
meddling"divine to whom I have already referred. (Loud
cries of " Do, no," and " order."). Yes, sir, I say it is time
---(renewed cries of " no, no," and " yes," with cries of
" order."

Mre PARKEIL.--4 'rise -to order. You can explain your
own views but not those of other men.

Mr. Alderman Ennt.u.—l appeal to the Mayor against
these interruptions. Allow me, as you contradict me in this
way, to- give you an instance that I think will convince you
when I have produced it. He would deprive them [the Ro-
man Catholics] of their civil rights by repealing the emanci-
pation bill. (Great uproar.)
The MAYOR.--1 think, Mr. Earle, you ought not to be
personal.

Mr. Alderman EARLS.--I am not at all personal, air; but
it is Mr. Parker who is so thin skinned. (Uproar.)
Mr. PARKER called upon Mr. Earle to face the rev. gen-
tleman, to whom he was alluding, anywhere he liked, and
said that Mr. M`Neile was able to meet him at any time.
(Cheers.)_ _ .

Mr. Alderman EARLE.---I have met him before, and be
retired like a coward from the contest. (Great uproar and
confusion.) _ _

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.--I will take this opportunity of
stating, that Mr. M'Neile is a friend of mine, and that I
never like the introduction of such subjects here ; but I will
say, Mr. Earle, that if Mr. M'lsleil6 had worn a blue coat
instead of a black one, you would not have ventured to
make such remarks as you have.

Mr. Alderman EARLE.=I have got a letter from Mr.
11,UNeile here,• which I will just read to you - (loud cries
of " Question.")

Mr.
audible

BRAMLEY_MOORE said a few words which were in-

•
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Mr. M'Neile has accused me of
the same thing that Mr. Moore has. I will read a corres-
pondence if you please—(cries of " No")—to show I have
made no falsehood. (Great uproar.)
Mr. PROCTOR asked why the name of Mr. M'Neile should
be perpetually dragged forward into this debate ?
Mr. TOULMIN spoke to order, and protested against the
name of the rev. gentleman being dragged forward in this

manner
Mr. Alderman EARLE did not care for Mr. Toulmin's pro-
test. Mr. M'Neile had dragged himself forward in this
matter, and not he (Mr. Earle.) (Renewed uproar.)
The MAYOR thought the excitement was too great to en-
able the council to consider the subject in the manner it de-
served. Personalities ought to be avoided.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—My dear Mr. Mayor, if clergy-
men will attack and abuse us from their pulpits, I shall always
speak again in this room. It is the only place I can defend
myself in, and most undoubtedly I will do so. (Great
uproar.)
Mr. TOULMIN again rose to order.
The MAYOR thought that the debate should be confined to
the merits of the case and not to individuals.
Mr. Alderman EARLE—I am arguing upon the fact that
this hatred towards Catholics induces them to pursue a line
of conduct which their better judgment would repudiate.
The MAYOR observed that it did not follow that every per-
son was guided by Mr. M'Neile.
Mr. Alderman EARLE asked how it was then that the rev.
gentleman preached against them from the pulpit ?
The MAYOR said that perhaps instances of the same thing
having been done on the other side could be adduced, if oc-
casion required.
Mr. Alderman EARLE—Very well. I can easily under-
stand why the Roman Catholic obeys the mandate of the
priest. It is because the church binds him to believe that
that is his duty ; but that is not the Protestant feeling. Ido
not understand why the same principle should be introduced
into the Protestant church. Having our own opinions, how-
ever, as far as the congregation of St. Jude's is concerned, is
a mere fiction. (Hear.) Some kind friend has sent us this
letter signed" Crito," addressed to Mr. G. H. Lawrence, in
which is given an admirable history of the Douay version.
Mr. PARKER said that an anonymous epistle ought not to
be read in the council.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said he was not going to read it, but
he dared say Mr. Parker had read it.
Mr. PARKER said he had.
Mr. Alderman EARLE hoped, then, that he understood it.
(Loud laughter.) He was much obliged to his friends for
these frequent interruptions ; they had no effect upon him.
He hoped that all the members of the council had read that
letter ; and he hoped also, that the gentlemen to whom it
was addressed had read it, for he seemed to be as ignorant as
the rest about the Douay version. Allow him now to read
what an Archbishop of Dublin had said. (Cries of " no,
no," and " question.") What! not hear what your own
archbishop says ? (Cries of "go on.") Mr. E. then read
a long extract from speech a of the Archbishop of Dublin,
(Dr. Whateley,) to the teachers of the national system, on
recently presenting each of them with a copy of the Holy
Scriptures. Now, if be were to be guided by an ecclesiasti-
cal guide, he certainly would rather take the opinion of such
a divine as the Archbishop of Dublin than that of others in
our own neighbourhood. Last Sunday he heard (he had
almost concluded) an excellent sermon from a very eloquent
divine, one who addressed himself to the senses, and not to
the passions, of his hearers. His text was, "Thou shalt
love thy neighbour as thyself." He told his congregation
that it might not be an easy matter to do our duty towards
our neighbour, but it was not a difficult one for us to ascer-
tain in what that duty consisted—that it might be discovered
by placing ourselves in the position of that neighbour when-
ever we were about to act towards him. Mr. Earle con-
cluded by calling upon the council to act upon this principle
upon the present occasion.
Mr. ROBINSON said that as the amendment provided for
no religious instruction to the Roman Catholic children, he
should suggest another which would do so. He agreed en-
tirely with the recommendations that had issued from the
Education Committee, as far as they related to the exclusion
of all but the authorised version, and that the schools should
open and close with prayer. Now the amendment he in-
tended to propose would enable Roman Catholics to have the
Irish Extracts. Those extracts had been designated anony-
mous by several clergymen at public meetings and elsewhere j
but he hoped that the gentlemen who had so designated
them, and who were prejudiced against them, had compared
them as he had with the authorised version. He had read
them sentence by sentence, and word by word, with the
authorised version, an he would take that opportunity of
stating, that, to the blFst of his belief and understanding,
there was no variation in the spirit or import of them.
(Hear.) He had also looked to the transposition of the
Psalms in the common Prayer-book, and those in the autho-
rised version, and he had selected one or two instances where
there was a more material difference between them than there
was between the extracts and the authorised version of the
scriptures. Mr. Robinson then read a variety of passages
in support of his assertion •, and after some observations on
the extracts, he concluded by moving as an amendment-
- " That the proceedings, resolutions, and reports of the
Education Committee be approved, with the exception—
That the four books of extracts be continued in the schools
for the use and religious instruction of the children of the
Roman Catholic persuasion, and such other sects as may
object to lessons from the authorised version, and that it be
optional with their parents or guardians whether such chil-
dren join in prayer or not."
Mr. BUSHELL said be did not rise for the purpose of re-
plying to Mr. Earle ; but be felt, in order that he might pro-
ceed in that steady onwardcourse which theimportance of the
subject demanded, that it was necessary he should brush him
off as he would some troublesome wasp or gnat, and having
got rid of the nuisance he should, with some comfort to him-
self, be able to get on. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. EARLE.—I am sorry if I have stung you. (Renewed
laughter.)
Mr. Busmcm.—Happily, Mr. Earle was in the same position
that Sir R. Peel described O'Connell to be, when he said that
his praise or his censure was of little importance. The position
of Mr. Earle both in the council and out of doors was so well
understood, that, so far as he (Mr. B.) was concerned, he
deemed it not of the slightest importance. (Hear.) He
deemed it necessary to explain, in some degree, the circum-
stance with which he had coupled his name with,' that of Mr.
M`Neile. Whatever differences might have existed between
him and Mr. M'Neile they were between themselves. With
those differences the public had nothing whatever to do • but
he could assure the council that so far as he had been able to
judge for himself he had ever done so •, he still continued to
do so; he had never submitted, and he never would, to
any dictation, lay or clerical, which he considered impro-
per. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") With regard to their
position as conservative members he felt that the reaction
which had taken place in the council had arisen in a great
measure from the opinions expressed out of doors on the
education question. It had been so made at the municipal hus-
tings, by the conservative press, in private conversation, and
in every way in which they could make use of the question
they had made it available, for the purpose of expelling those
from power who introduced a system which the conservatives
considered unjust and irreligious. (Hear, hear.) He avowed
the fact boldly. If his constituents had asked him for his
opinion three years ago, it would have been what he should
express that day. If the conservatives were to adopt any
other course than would be pursued that day, it would be
said that they had made the education question a stalking
horse to go into power, and that the moment they achieved
their object they kicked the vehicle from under them.
Taking, then, the low-ground of consistency, he could
not conceive how any man would act otherwise than
he should act that day. What was the position of the
schools when the late corporation came into power? There
was then a very large majority of protestants in them, who
were receiving a religious instruction ; and when the " libe-
ral " body came into power, they at once, without consulting
the prejudices of the protestants, adopted a system which
expelled upon principle nearly the whole of the protestants
from the schools. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Bushell then read
some extracts from a return, which shewed that there was a
considerable majority of Roman catholics over protestants
in the schools at the present time, although the proportion
which the former bore to the latter, so far as population
went, was as one to six. He asked whether it was honest,
just, or right, that a system should be continued in the
schools which had the effect of excluding the protestants in
such large numbers ; and said that on
this shewing, every
argument which -had been used by the "liberal " members
might, with great truth, be turned against themselves. In
reply to the objection urged by Mr. Turner, that we were
Roman catholic children, doctrines
taobowuhtiet to enforce,
their
paruepaotsn
could not consent, he (Mir. B.) dis-
claimed any such intention It was not that they would
doctrines on those who were
enforce Church of England
unwilling to receive them, but that they could not consent
own scriptural instruction.
to impair the usefulness of their
Ile would give an example of the probable effect, supposing
Mr. Turner's views, embodied in his amendment, to be
adopted. The children who are permitted to receive reli-
gious instruction, have the Bible placed in their hands ; and
they are told that it is, far beyond all worldly considerations,
importsahnotuldthamt
athheeyitsshoguloldrioruesadtraunthda uthnedeforsutnadnadtioitn;utphoant
they
which they must rest every action of their lives, and every
hope of eternal salvation. And what must be said to the
children who are not permitted to receive religious instruc-
tion ? They must be told that worldly considerations, and
a regard for the prejudices of men, render it inexpedient
that they should read that very Bible which their neighbours
on the adjoining form are taught to rest upon as their
only hope of salvation. (Hear, hear.) His objection
then to Mr. Turner's proposition was, that by it be would
bring down scriptural instruction to the level of grammar,
geography, or any other branch of secular instruction, which
might, or might not, be taught at the option of
failtbe to i
parent.
This, he (Mr. B.) must again contend, could not m_
pair the usefulness of religious teaching. He was by no
means prepared to say, although he had not made up his
mind upon the subject, that he would not give his own money
to the utmost extent of his means, to give the Roman C.
tholic instruction, secular instruction alone, provided it were
found, as he sincerely trusted would not be the case, thata
they were excluded from the corporation schools by their pa-