The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-05-17 00:00:00

TESMA*

1.

able Member went forward with his charge. he should
have his (Mr. C.'s) impartial attention. Re did not
know the individual charged, nor had.. be any know-
ledge of the rate against him, but he would promise,
.npon his honour, his most constant attention and nu-
partial hearing. He would not, however, have the busi-
ness now thrown on the shoulders of the Members of his
Majesty's Government.
After a few words from Mr. WYNN,
Mr. S. RICE said that nothing could be more fair than
the punctua attendance of the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Wynn) in his place in the Committee, except the
honourable manner in which he conducted himself in
the Chair. He thought the originating the charge was
one thing, but that the affirming of it by a Committee
• was another, and altered the case. As to Mansell, how-
even, he would not shrink from the prosecution of the
charge, although he felt be had reason to complain that
it was thrown on him. .

Mr, ABBRCROM BY explained.
Mr. CANNING said he knew nothing of the charge—
he caned nothing about the result, that he should regret
'a„bigla legal officer found be found guilty of any mal-prac-
tices to his office. Bat he declared that be had an partia-
lity—no prejudice on either side, and if it were brought
on, he would be a constant att.* law.'
Mr. DKNMAN described the proceedings beforethe
Commiuioners of Inquiry, and before the Committee of
the House after. lie thought it was premature in the
leading Member of his Majesty's Government in that
House, to declare that no Miraister would t ake up that
question before hewn acquainted witbthe contents of the
papers on the table. The present was the case of a itruove-
able officer. It was competent for the Crown, on an Ad-
dress of the House, to remove him, if a easeful( peculation
or abuse was mulcts% by competent authority. It *es not
Hest before theywere acquainted with the contents of the
Iteport.ter petineance that Ministers would not proceed,
and he -how the night Hon. Gentleman would remold-
der that ltesolatten.
Mr. CA NO explained.
jaZ
Mr. PRIM Om , said he would ask the Hcmoer-
'bib et riber or Limerick, if this were a clear case,
would heileeline proceeding with it? Tea Hon. Member
probably mow found it to lee a bad cause, tad wished to •
put it on Ministers.—( o, no.) Why did he then submit
his resolutions if he was not determined to go farther? It
would be remembered that all the encouragement the Hoe.
()collegian got {rumble late lamented Noble Frleud *hes
he proposed those resolutions, was to hare been advised to
let the charges be examined through the :bedlam of a Com-
mittee before he would proceed. But his late Noble Friend
declined taking the case out of the Hon. Gentleman's
hands. He did not see what difference it made in this case
that the Commission was appointed by the Crown pennant
to se Address front tie !louse, and not by Act of Parlia-
ment. The Hod. Gentleman ought to explain his reasons
for deellning—he :nightie state whether he found it too di:-
Beak to proceed. or that he had charmed his opinion.
Mr. RICE denied that he changed his opinion.
After a few words from Mr. Pitt 1.,
Mr. R. smut' said lie was inclined to acitiieses in the
opinion that Ministers ought not to take this question on
themselves, but they ought to see if there be no oth-r
course besides en Address or an impeachment. His motion
was that "motiler mode could be found more effectual than
either. It appeared that since the Act of the First of the
Tate king, the Judges enjoyed their °laces by patent quasi
dim se benegestierit. The very words of the patent implied
that the enjoyment of office was to last only during good
conduct. Has notion was, that such a palest might be an-
nulled by a rare faelas. There was not, perhaps, any di-
rect inthority om the subject, for even Ireland never fur-
nished an example of such corruption as this Learned Judge
was charged with ; bet though lie found no direct authority
he could state to the /louse a case that bore on the present.
It was a note in p. 9. Cro. Ca. to which was added a 'armo-
r modem. that 0 Baron Walter,•Chief Baron of the Exche-
quer. died lately at Serjeauts' Inn, a good and Learned
Judge. Attempts were Nis& to remove him from his office,
Lbut he would not take Ratios of may proceeding except by
stirs Atlas, mil sb he continued to Vedette hit salary of
Chief Oaten Wilke end• of his life." He thought it was
worthy of the attention of Government to consider whether
there was hot any other made besidea the two already pro-
posed.
Mr. CANNINasald that the observations he used refer-
red to either of the proceedings by the /loose, and not to the
course suggested by the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. WE CHERELL was of opinion that the Act of Par-
liament superseded the power which the Crown formerly
possessed. He did not mean to repudiate the ingenuity of
the Honourable Member or the authority of the case cited.
but he thought that it was throug3 the intervention of Par-
liament, and not by legal process a Judge could be re-
moved.
Mr. SMITH explained.
Mr. HUME said, that there never was a ease where his
Majesty's Ministers prosecuted a person accused of bri-
bery. The questioa he wished to ask was, whether such
a charge as the present being proved, and no individual
Member undertaking to bring it forward, should the Go-
vernment suffer an unjust Judge to remain in the seat of
justice ?
Dr. LUSHINGTON did not think that his Majesty's Mi-
nisters were called upon to bring forward vexatious charges
even in a case where others, Members of Parliament, refus-
ed to interfere. The matter c mid not rest where it was ;
It became the duty of the lion. Gent. who first called the at-
tention of the House to the question, to bring it forward
again, and leave the House to deal with it as they pleased.
It was of the utmost importance, that the principal Judge of
Ireland should be allowed to remain in his place with such a
charge hanging over him.
Mr. CANNING said, Hit were true, as the Hon. Member
for Lincein said, that there were other modes of calling a
Judge to account besides through Parliament, it thre.v a
new light on the subject, and altered his opinion of the inde-
pendence of Judges.
IRISII TITHES.
Mr. GOULBURN moved the Order of the Day for the
House going Into a Committee on the Irish Tithes Composi-
tion Rill.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD said that he was anxious to
take the earliest opportunity of declaring his opinion on
the Bill. He would not be deterred by the thinness of
the benches, or the absence of those Hon. Members who
were more particularly interested in the state of Ireland
He would apply himself to the principle of the Bill,
which seemed to bars been, by common consent, reserv-
ed for the present occasion. His objection to the Bill
was, that it would operate to increase the discontent of
the people, and to increase the revenue of the Clergy.—
To the latter it would nut only give an equivalent for this
tithes which they had, hut an equivalent for tithes which
they never tbougbt of claiming. The main objection be
had was to one particular clause of the Bill. If it had
been a mere clause attendant on the execution of other
clauses, he would,not have opposed the Speaker leaving
the chair. To make the clause plain, be should state
that Commiasioaers were'to be appointed for the valua-
tion of tithe property in perishes, by special vestries on
the one hand, and the incumbent en the other. The flict
was, the special vestries could not be appointed io most
parishes. • The valuation of those commutations was to
be made on a fair avera ge.of the receipt of the incumbent
for a certain number of years. He could nut ohj.ct to
that •, bat the claque provided that, if the Commissioners
could not agree, or appoint an umpire within a certain
time, or in. any other special case, it may be lawful for
the Lord-Lieutenant to appoint a person, not an owner
of tithes, to he a Contanissfoner for all the purposes of the
Act. The House-would see that the Bill, having takrn
the tint principle of a valuation for a certain number of
years., by the receipts of the incitmbent„derrted from ill
in the clause which he opposed, by giving the Lord:
Llent.oant the power to adjudicate the tithe, without-1
' any reference to the receipts of the incumbent. The its'
1 aumbeot, it nut satisfied with what lie had received.'
I or• wishing to inake any additional claim, all he kW to
tto was sot to appoint aVointoiteiOnee NA his part. The
intsatitto of the 444 might in thomarlis defeated, it

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was obvious thct the prate would arise o; the part of
the Clergy,* also otillos plat of the parish. The Hon.
Gent.theo enfered into k further detail of his objectionto the
Bill, and also into ao examinetion of the evils of the tithe
system. . He certainly was partial to the principle of making
the tenant pay the Clergyman through the medium of the
landlord. lie thought it conduced to the peace of the couc-
try, that the peasant and the Ciergymeo should come in col-
Usinuilatas little as. poaslide. Kuehn .W.ialdd.tlatt protest
against auy arrangemeat which would have for its object
any Increase of the property of the auroh. Ile was un-
willing to go Into drilla'. but the House might take 1;19
; word, when he asserted that the machinery of this Bill was
totallyeimpplicable to the South and South-Western pave
of Ireland. Ills main objection was to one part Mae
clause. The llieht Hon. Gentleman thee went through the
provisions of the Bill relating to the formation of vostrieee
and the appointment of Coninilssioyers on the part of the
parishioners and of the incumbent. 'reey then came to a
clause which provided, that If within a given time either of
the parties held out and refused to make composition, this
Lord Lieutenant should have the power of appointing a
Commissioner to decide upon the amount of compeuetaiort
for " all lawful tithes." without reference to any receipts
whatsoever. 'this was to be the alteruaiive erre where
the Incumbent refused to appoint a Commiesiener in the first
instance. So that if he wished to revive dormant claims
whir; he bad not thought of making himself. lie had bet to
objet to the compositioa and they world be granted to hint
by this power. Ile coneiderod Ow Resolution of tee Irish
'loose of Commons of the year liSte as a spoliation. of the
Church of Ireland. With regard to the Potato. Tithei, he
believed it had been rarely exacted in Ireland, though it had
recently been demanded in a few iiestancee ; and tie demand
alone had caused a strong feeling of irritation. lie object-
ed. Iberefure, to a valuation being taken on the mere dor-
mant right of taking this tithe. lie wished that the Catho-
lic occupier should pay tithe in the shape of rent to the
landlord; but lie objected to any measure which should pro-
fess to accomplish this, and yet should hive the effect of in.
creasing the revenue of tie Church. He themeht, too, that
it would be impossible to come to a fair valuatiou mauler this
Bill without a precious new survey. ladeed he thoeght the
whole measure would have beets better had it been preceded
by a Parliamentary Commission, to aseeitaliethe value of
the different lisditss of halted. At preien-Abepeeceeding
would be principally of a parochial Maim: ill Mould re.
sist the motion for the Spexicer leaiing.the Choir, though he
did not think it n ssary for him to divide the Ileum eliou
it. He really trusleit'tlar House would very greyly consi-
der the importance of this Bill; for if ii were once passed,
it could not lightly be altered. It was a Mill, in hie opi-
Mon, intended to relieve the country,leut which would base
the effect, In many instances, of douuling, shit in same of
quadrupling the Incomes of tire Chatty. He implored the
House to pause before they proceeded with a Bill, against
which the Clergy protested, and woieli would nut g; ye mese
faction to the people.
Mr. Of/ULM-TUN declared hie conviction that the
Bill would not be attended by the evils imsteined by his
Right Hon. Friend. He bad never denied that the tab.
ject was surrounded by difficulties ;• bet, under any cir-
cumstances, such a measure is the -present Must ahea6i
be liable to. objections. He inereiv called upon the nous,
to say, whether it was not a Bill as free from defects as it
possibly could he, eunsidering the nature of the subject:
and whether such defects as it really did contain could
not. in a great measure, be rein 'died by a dismission of
l's details in "Committee. Indeed, in the foist instance,
he haul wished to have per niseion to carry the Bill, pro
forme, through a Committee, and: afterwards to present
it to the House with such amendments as Might bt hand
adviseablr. This, however, hal been objected to by theta,.
who Mere opposed to tile principle of the Bill. The
House were aware that, in general; the tithe in Ireland
fell upon the poorer ealtivatonsof flies:oil ;a dreariest e
which brought the clergytnatiintddßeert contort with his
parishioners, and conyed,al hint either to forego the
principal part of his income (derived from several mall
sums,) or exact the payment of that incolne with apparent.
harshness. There were other evils arising from the mode
of col wing the tithe,anit the apieati,roara; whether zee
turning of the tithe into a money payment would not rue-
tribute very materially to remedy these evils. Ile was
aware that in Ireland there would always be objeetioas to
the local administration of parish :affairs ; but this was no
argument against their endeavouring, as opportunity
offered, to remedy this defect. lie was aware, too,
that as the Bill was originally framed, it *mold be
particularly difficult to form a vestry. The qualifies-.
tion stipulated was too high; for there were many
parishes in which no person laid 51. tithe annually,
which was the amount originally fixed. But, surely,
this was a defect which might be remedied in a Cum.
mittee. And if any lion. Member world point out to
him any eligible amendment, he should must chrertullv
adopt it. The first object of the Bill was, a voluntary
adjustment, by bringiag the interested polies togeth r I.
The objection of his Right lion. Friend, however, was
principally directed against the subsequent part of the
Bill, in which there weeesoma compulsory clauses, his
denied that this part of the Bill sanctioned auy invasion
of property. When the public good called for
forcible taking away of private property' public justice
called for the giviug to the individual a fair equivalent;
and this was the principle by which the compulsory part
of the Bill was regulated. Still, if any interim:lute
process between the voluntary and the compulsory mode
email be suggested, he should be glad to hear and dis-
miss it. He was surprised at the allusion made by his
Right Honourable Friend to the tithe of agistinent, for
it formed no part of the compulsory provisions of the
present Bill. lie would forbear enlarging upon a va-
riety of subjects on which his lion. Friend had des-
canted, because he was anxious to get the Bill into the
a.;ommittee, to have the •advantage of that full discus•
sion and emendation which it would there receive. Ile
hal no doubt it would come oat of that Committee
in such a form as to reconcile all hostility against it.
Mr. WETHERELL objected to the bill on the ground
that it would not be a voluntary agreement on the part of
the incumbent, but a compulsory surrender of his here-
ditary rights. The final result of it would be to compel
the church of Ireland to forego its freehold territorial
right to tithes fur a compensatory payment in money. He
contended that the principleva whim the bill was fOuntl•
ed was perfectly novel, and of that extraordinary nail re,
that up to the present day no oatesman had ever h ea
bold enough to advocate it in Parliament. He cou:d not
consider tile bill as one that was calculated to produre
conciliatory feeling in Ireland, neither could he s•!e Iww
the Catholic would have less objection to paying big
tithe to the Protestant clergyman in a definite sum oleos
ney, titan he would have to paying it to him in kind. Ile
likewise objected to the Speaker's leaving the Chair
upon this ground, that if the bill were allowed to
stand over for sin or twelve months, some plan might
be devised in the interim for making an amicable ad-
Justment of tithes between the clergy and laity of Ire.
land. On every ground he must oppose the passing of
this bill ; indeed lie was sure, that it its provisions were
applied at present to the church of Ireland, a proposition
worthd be made, in the course of the next S ession, to &Pelf
thaw also to the church of England.
Mr PEEL said, that his Right lion. Friend (Mr. I%
Fitzgerald) and the Hots. and Learned Ovutleasau who
lead last sat down (Mr.lVetherell) seemed to agree onliin
one point—namely, to get rid of the bill if possible. He
protested against waiting fur further information iron
Ireland, because be was sure that no information of any
value would be obtained. As to the compulsory
objected to, it did nut necessarily form part of the bill.—
He was prepared to support that clause; but if it el:
lust in the committee, the bill might still be passed el,
out it. Thw argument of time. Hon. awl Learned Gear.
man (Mr. lVetherell), if it went team/ thing, went to IV
declare that no commutation IAA weak amt a:
avast nature poliition of right, could take places
let if all
under the auldces of the legislature.
tommatation'amoupted, in a measure, to spoliation, int
chaise

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would the Flan. and Learned Gentieman consent to an
Arrangement with respect to the potato tithe? If his
principle was good in any case,. It was applicable to
all. The Right Hon. Secretary then entered into it de-
tail of the various modes of collecting tithes in the dif-
ferent parts of Ireland, in order to show that amicable ar-
rangements might well he entered into between the pa-
Filth. s and the clergy. In conclusion, he deprecated the
idea of waiting for some measure which shonlal , meet all
views, and rarry universal harmony and conciliation into
Ireland ; and submitted that the ball before the House,
witbont going. elite so far as perfertion, might yet
prodnce very snbstantial advantages to that Country.
Mr. V.. PITZIiERA LD expldined. •
Sir .1. NEWPORT was decidedly against a delay till
the next session. Without some modificaion of the
tithe system, it would beln vain to, talk fur peace or
teantrillity in Ireland.
Col HARRY objected to the compulsory clause, but
approved of the general principle of the bill, which he
thought would be very beneficial to the intere,ts of the
Irish clergy. '
Mr. ARERCROMRY was afraid that the qualifica-
tions proposed fbr the bill would render the measure
nselese. It the compulsory clause were struck out, the
evil would be left in foil activity; and, therefore, if
that chums were to be removed -from the bill,, he could
not eenatent to vote for it. • / •
Sir J. STEWART deprecated any °latter, es king,
thrown in the telly of the fair operation of the bill.
Col. TRENCH said the great difficulty lay ea this—
that the tithe was chiefly payable by Papist, to Prow,. I
tants. He ball great hopes of•the bill, which., las trust- I
ed, would come out of the Committee muee per
any Illessore of this nature bad done.
itftfr a few words from Mr. BA NKES, and .
.1111111,:whose name we could not learn. '
• • ' ' TIM V rose evolved itself into a Comtnittecos Ob.
"bleb 'mated pro forms.
The Hodge resnanett and the consideration .1 the re-
rld
port teas poitponed till after the Isolvdays.
brought) The Irish Insurrection Act was ugbtZo •hy -1111%.
tIOULHURN, and read the first time, awl Ilk
be read axecond time en Friday next. k.O .
Mr. HUMS fixed his motion respectifig.the lEIO
paral pronorions for the sth of June next.
Adjderned at half-past twelve o'clock.
• • •• . .
• I.' , •• AFRIUAN INSTITUTION.

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Tideslity; tlii 16th ltsaliersary of the Society for
cart leg into Meet the eisbosnms of the Legislature to
'abOlielialtoicetliee African.Slarerr. was li.elii in the Free.
kaatOns' Tavern—the Duke lof Gloucester in the Chair.
Ms 'Koval Highness entered the room, aecompanieil by
the.liair..ss of. I...widow/1, Lord Calthorpe, Lord Gam-
ier, 54. Wilberforce, Mr. Devon. &e. &c.
. • . The,'ldeport. which was read by the Secretary. stated,
thatna.epplication had been matte by the Duke of Wel-
littgteisto the French Minister at Verona, who said, the
,
;tea nf, the aolittiin wai not popular lu Prltlll,.. it
ir.itiAl slit iwitpict cm of, Mk. Secretary Canning to the
De* nrAfellingtOu, altd the onhoiTtent endeavours to
'• .treat s'ave ohipo as pirate!, and to refuse admission into
• 114 r.States,of all Colonial Prelate. of such Nations as
~.. •
refitted to put eaten' to this traffie. • It also contained
the declarationa of the Miaisters
,of tbe valions Powers
at.Veriena against the trade, notwithstanding which the
odieli.iten of it was farther off than ever, and the Portu-
guese Government hail refused to ratify the article. It
• • . . horrible L ,, • ,
of
• ibatanv..d the situation an tonneau number
of olsccs foam' on beard same French aad Spanish Yes-
' sels,,whicf; mese clawed on lice coast of Africa. On
hoard a Spanish cruiser 380 slaves were f rand, *nil a:
• lighted match teas hanging over the open magazine, but
a British Leaman gallantly extinguished the light. The
. crew lead strain to atiort.a.id were known• to regret that
%ILO( plans.)lad tw4saette4o4, . .
1..-4060114161111MIGnat 14101.11.6041..045 AM she
Report he received, add he was sure the Worts of Ml-
slaters and of the Directors would never cease until they
load btmted this odious traffic oat of the world. The
'Monarchs of Fmrope bad suffered themselves to be di-
versed from the subject to objects far less holy, less not,
and less practicable than the extinction of the Slave
Trale.
• Mr. F. Bverox seconded the motion. lie praised
ate conduct of Mr. Macauley, who had often ventured
'his life in the cause, and hero exposed to the basest ea-
`hinnies in eonseqdence of his exertions. The base con-
duct of France was equalled by nothing hut the mean
and contemptible quibbling with which she attempted to
veil her conduct. We had called ourselves the most
virtuous and moral nation in the world ; but though we
-had rives up the trade of stealing men, we took care to
retain the men we had stolen.
Count Troaszais (Member of the Spanish Cortes) ex-
pressed the, cordial co-operation of his country in the
humane objects of the Institution.
Lord CALTIIORPC lamented that there appeared to be
itt France an opinion Favourable to the existence of sla-
very, and that in oar abolition of it we were not actdated
./tV disinterested motiver. He then moved that the Duke
,of Wellington be added as a Vice-President of the Society,
and that the Directors be re-elected.
Mr. STarnaN (the Master in Chancery) regretted to
•have heard not many hours before a high Statesman in-
slot:ate that the dictates of the Christian religion should
, netiaterfel'e in legislation. We should be unworthy of
err religloo awe did not use all our exertions in obtain-
ing for the unfortunate slaves the same liberty which
we ourselves happily enjoyed. He ritlicii!eil the fear ci
danger to the colonists from publications on the subject
.of slivery, as the newspapers were quite under the con-
trail of the masters, who did not withhold the intelll-
- little did they fear the consequences. He re-
animated the measure of registration of slaves, In
Al* to shut the doors of the colonies, and to prevent
the i4icit traffic in slaves.
. •
• Mt. WILPSRPORCE instanced come of the world of,
erikeentai ed in the two short wapiti, " Slave Trade."
thesaure of is Lich was to make an Eden a wilderness.
• Tee kesoLutiums were then agreed to, and the Meeting
separated.
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Mari or lazi.uf D.... Six or eight houses have bee*
:loarnh is Limerick sifter our last notice: In Cork an at-
tempt was made to assassinate a Magistrate, Mr. Her
earilLow. A few outrages have occurred in Clare and
Westmeath. Mr. Sergeant Tomos, and Mr. Black
bornoespperr to be indefatigable. The Cork Papers,
artityd this inorbing,lisppilv bring nothing new.—(Duk-
'Vs Iteening Peet of rweeday.)
1 114470,1imaita.—Letters (corn Pe!e;!tno, of the 3d of
kril,alentiol ma., on the Vith of Man..., there was a
• wetee. check of an e-r.luptake in the btileislatid of Fit-
&clunk at a 3,a41.44,4rice from Tnspani. A part of
•Ifse Mien• fortiedVlOol, and twenty-ewe persons perished
insider the rains. (In the 3lst there was another shock'
ht Stessina, which, however, did no &wig.. It mayl
. oasil;i.bie itustrireil what uneasin.ss must he felt through-
. eat 4 i 1 Sicily, n c..a.oloreee of the shocks at the two
remote Capes of Lyleheum and Pelurns.
' This s' assn the building of houses has commenced sit
extensively, that it would be no easy matter to assign
s'hit the ety in • any one quarter. It was thongtat
t the tt
rage for !matting upon the north side would
_imolai direction, whet, the Ne‘r l',,iro, according
tn.lbe plan, its. once completed. But the weit end of
' 4. distillery p irk his been staked oat for new streets
• Atli building has lately commenced upon it with' great'
aciirity.—(gdin. Slur.)

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