The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-11-11 00:00:00

i Mr. PARKER said the Mayor was perfectly correct ; but
at the same time if he allowed one gentleman to state his
I reasons why the two individuals proposed should be added
to the Education Committee, he hoped he would also bear
II the other side of the question, namely, the reasons why
they should not be admitted upon that committee. He (Mr.
Parker) rose then for the purpose of opposing the amend-
ment of Mr. Aikin ; and he did it on this ground—
(Cries of " Order," and " Mr. Bushell.")
Mr. SHEPPARD said he should oppose Mr
amendment. (Cries of " Order.")
The TOWN-CLERK said he conceived the question whether
the committee consisted of ten or twelve to be a question
which ought to be disposed of before the nomination of the
members. The irregularity now was in this, that the propo-
sition was, not that the committee should consist of the ad-
ditional number of two, but that two gentlemen by name
should be added to the committee. If that motion we

Aikin's

carried the effect would be that those two gentlemen would
be elected. The course of the council bad been to proceed to
the election of each individual separately ; against the nomi-
nation of one gentleman another gentleman had been nomi-
nated, and after that the council came to a determination.
The Court of Queen's Bench had allowed another course.
It had allowed the whole number to be proposed at once in a
I very late case ; but in this council the course had been as he
had stated. If the motion were reduced into the form that
two members be added, abstaining from naming them,
there would then be no objection.
. Mr. EARLE begged to put one question, as it seemed there
were some gentlemen anxious to make speeches on this sub-
ject. If it were agreed that they might propose any particu-
lar gentleman, he supposed that any member who was anxious
to make a speech might state why that gentleman was or was
not eligible ? If so, the whole discussion came to the same
thing.
Mr. SHE PP ARD rose, but there being a cry for Mr. Bushell
to proceed, he gave way.
Mr. BUSHELL said, that so far from feeling any regret at
having been checked by the Mayor, he was glad at it, because
he was persuaded that his worship would, in his new office, fully
carry out the principle of impartiality throughout the whole
period during which he might occupy the chair. The council
had, on many occasions, had reason to regret that'gentlemen had
been suffered to deviate from the subject at issue, and that
much valuable time had been lost in consequence: and there-
fore he thanked the Mayor for having checked him, when he
considered he was deviating from the question. He was
going on to throw out that which Mr. Earle had just thrown
out. Suppose the first name had been read, Mr. Aikin
would have got up and said, " I propose Mr. Hugh
Hornby :" a discussion would have' arisen on that, and,
therefore, discussion must follow, even if they did not enter
upon the general question of education, but confined
themselves to giving reasons for, and against the
particular nomination. When he was interrupted he
was shewing what the duties of committees were, and
he was going on to show that the duty of the Education
Committee was to carry out the principle of education in the
corporation schools, as laid down by the council; therefore,
to appoint any gentleman who would rather oppose than
assist in the carrying out of that principle would be a perfect
anomaly. (Hear.) The first thing, if gentlemen wished to
change the system, must be to propose that it be altered in
the council ; and then the council, if the change were made,
would be prepared to alter the constitution of the committee;
but until that was done, the course to be adopted was, to put
upon the committee only those members who were in favou r
of the principle now adopted. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BLACKBURN said, he felt the extreme inconvenience
of entering upon a lengthened discussion of the general sub-
ject, and be did not intend to embark upon it, but to state in
a very few words the reasons why he differed entirely from
the view taken by Mr. Bushell. He did not
.agree with the
statement that there would be inconsistency in either Mr.
Hornby or himself accepting the appointment. The objection
that Mr. Hornby and himself had to the course pursued with
regard to education was a negative objection. They did not
object to what was actually and positively done in the way of
instruction in the schools. They never did object to the
children of the Established Church being instructed in their
own religious persuasion ; they disapproved of nothing going
on in the schools, so far as he knew, with that object, but
they objected to--
Mr. Hoocsos7.—ls this in order? Is not this going into
the whole question ? (Hear, hear.)
The MAYOR.—Mr. Bushell has stated his reasons why he
thinks the course pursued in the nomination of the committee
is a right one; and, as 1 understand, Mr. Blackburn is now
showing that it is a wrong one.
Mr. EARLE.—Hear, hear ! Bravo !
Mr. BLACKBURN, in continuation, said his party did not
object to what was going on in the schools in the way of in-
struction ; and all they now wanted was some addition to
secure the admission of Roman Catholic children. They
did not object, and for himself he could honestly say he did
not object, and new id object, during the time he had a
otisshare in the mans of the schools, to the children of
the Established 1 h having everfacivantage for their own
instruction. He defied any man,. ontradict 4im upon that
point. There was, therefore,A ' tency either Mr.
Hornby, or in himself, act In Ijn n
lie appointment.; but,
then, if his appointment were lo be taken as An agreiment:
with the present system, without any addition to that sys-
tem, he would net take it. Conservative gentlemen who dis-
approved of Roman Catholics being taught Roman Catholic
doctrines, could not agrewarith the late system, and therefore,
they were never asked to do so—but the distinction was
marked now, and there was no reason why the liberal party
should not with propriety be placed upon the present Edu-
cation Committee. He (Mr. Blackburn) would not go on
the committee for the purpose of obstructing what they were
inclined to do ; he had no objection to what was going on ;
his principle was, that all should have education, and, there-'
fore, he never opposed or offered any objection to education
in the principles of the Established Church, believing that it
would be unjust to attempt anything of the sort. He did
not make these remarks for the purpose of being on the com-
mittee, because, whether on it or not, he woud originate a
discussion at the proper time and place, which, he trusted,
might lead to the adoption of some plan that would meet the
concurrence of all parties, without obliging any to relinquish
their conscientious conviction of what was right.
Mr. PARKER said, the arguments of Mr. Blackburn were,
so far as they went, very able for his side of the question ;
but it must be remembered, that the Education Committee
was not so much a committee of business as a committee of
principle. If they, as conserMives and members of the
Established Church, compromisidtheir principles for the sake
of expediency, they betrayed the trust reposed in them by
their constituents—(hear, hear) ;—and he trusted, therefore,
that the conservative majority of that council would never be
led away by such arguments as they had just heard. He bad
a very strong objection both to Mr. Blackburn and Mr.
Hornby being placed upon the committee on account of their
principles; but what, he would ask, had turned Mr. Black-
burn out of Lime-street Ward but his " liberal " views
upon this question ?
Mr. EARLS.—Strong drink. (Hear, and cries of "order.")
Mr. BLACKBURN.—Money turned me out of Lime-street.
(Great cries of "order.")
The MAYOR suggested that the course which was now
being taken was not the best suited for fair discussion. The
council wasnot now considering what had turned one man out
or put another man in. (Cheers.)
Mr. EARLE—Strong beer has put them in. (Cries of
<< order.")

The MAYOR thought it would be found that the subject
stood upon firmer and higher grounds than these ; and he
trusted it would be dealt with accordingly.
Mr. PARKER said, the worthy little alderman on his left,
(Mr. Earle) had alluded to strong drink having been the
means of putting the Conservatives in. He hoped the
Mayor would call that gentleman to order.
The MAYOR: I am sure the business of the council would
be much benefitted if such expressions were avoided.—
(Hear, hear.) .

Mr. PARKER hoped that he might now be allowed to state
his objections to the two gentlemen named being on the
committee. The appointments on both the Finance and Im-
provement Committtees had met with the approbation of all
parties, and the appointments on the Education Com-
mittee alone had met with opposition. But although he stood
there to give them his opinion on the subject, he also, he
hoped, represented the wishes of his constituency, because
the feeling out of doors was, that they were to have an Edu-
cation Committee based on protestant principles, and com-
posed exclusively of members on the conservative side of the
question. (Hear, hear,) He repeated that the matter was
one of principle, and not of business. He hoped, therefore,
that there would be no talk of compromise on this important
question, because he was satisfied it was the feeling of the
town that the system as now pursued be carried out by the
conservative party, if they were to exist as a party. (Hear,
bear.) With these impressions he would sit down opposed
to either Mr. Hornby or Mr. Blackburn, being on the Edu-
cation Committee.

Mr. HODGSON said he should not attempt to go into the
general question now, because he could clearly foresee that
there would be ample opportunity afforded of discussing it
again and again. (Hear.) He rose to give what he thought
was a contradiction to the gentleman who had first risen on
the subject. That gentleman stated it had been invariably
the practice to admit a portion of their opponents in the
council upon the various committees. Now, it was singular
that that gentleman should not, upon so important a subject,
have been better informed before he made the declaration to
the council, because, instead of the invariability to which he
referred, the fact was that with regard to this particular
committee (the Education Committee) a list was given in,
consisting of fifteen radicals—(hear, hear)—with an express
declaration on the part he (Mr. Hodgson) believed of the
chairman of that committee that " he regretted he could not
include one conservative on it—(hear)—and the more so as
the leaders of that party, Sir R. Peel and the Duke of Wel-
lington, had given it their approbation, though not one who
could do so had yet found his way into the council." The
15 radicals were then appointed. (Hear.) It was surprising
that any member should so entirely have overlooked this fact,
but it would appear still more surprising when he named the
gentleman who had proposed the committee in question, and
made the observations just referred to—it was no less than
Mr. Blackburn himself. (Loud cries of " hear, hear," from
the conservatives.) He (Mr. Hodgson) had procured the
extract of the gentleman's speech from the STANDARD, the
Mail, and the Mercury of the 12th of November, all of which
were in substance the same, and he would doubtless be cor-
rected if be were wrong. It was very singular that the gen-
tlemen on the radical side should so suddenly change their
views of liberality, but, whilst wishing to carry on all discus-
sion with the utmost courtesy, he could not see or under-
stand the reasoning of Mr. Blackburn, that the circumstances
were now changed. Though he (Mr. Blackburn) said he ap-
proved of what had been done, he only approved so far that
he might introduce something which he called " additions,"
else that would make all the things now done objectionable
as part and parcel of an unsound system. The Education
Committee did not exclude the Roman Catholics. (Hear.)
It was not true. (Hear, hear.) They offered the Bible to the
Roman Catholics. They offered them Scriptural education
without sectarianism. (Hear, bear.) But the Roman Catho-
lics could not be taught except out of the Douay version
with their own objectionable notes ; and, though the com-
mittee might be permitted to give instruction to the other
children not out of the Douay, they could not be black and
white at the same time. (Hear, hear.) They could not
allow the sound and the unsound to go on, pari passu. He
would ask the medical man upon this point whether corrup-
tion and incorruption would do well to continue in the same
body? (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He believed that Mr.
Blackburn and Mr. Hornby, though erroneous, advocated
their views with sincerity and ability ; but •he trusted the
conservative party would support this causeupon the strength
of immutable principle. (Cheers.) He regretted that any-
thing badfallen from the chair on the subject of education.
He must say he deeply regretted it. (Hear, hear.) He
therefore opposed the appointment of either Mr.f Blackburn
or Mr. Hornby, distinctly saying that it was not through any
discourtesy. (Hear.)
Mr. BLACKBURN begged to explain. Mr. Hodgson bad
just quoted that he said " he regretted he could not propose
any conservative member upon the committee ; " but what
was the reason of his regret ? Not that he was unwilling to
place them upon the committee, but because he knew they
would not serve upon it. That was the ground of his regret.
(Cries of " Oh, oh !") It was so, indeed.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—The fact is we would not serve.
Mr. BLACKBURN.—Gentlemen were asked to serve and
they refused.
Mr. HODGSON.—I never was asked to serve.
Mr. BLACKBURN.—No, you never were asked.
Mr. EARLE said he did not wonder at that gentleman (Mr.
Hodgson) not being asked to serve ; and he thought it was
extremely to be regretted that his name was placed upon the
list on this occasion. He thought so, because the time was
come when the government of the country looked upon this
question in a very different point of view. (Cries of " Question
and order." He was in order. He appealed to the Mayor,
who had a brother in office, and therefore knew, no doubt,