The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-05-21 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

He would view the case in another light. NV64*
they do for the widows of those who died in the
military or naval service of their country ?—A pen-
sion of 5001. a-year was reckoned an ample provi-
sion. In the present year even under Mr. Perceval's
Administration, the widow Of I gallant Officer, who
fell in the breach before Ciudad Rodrigo—(he meant
General Craufbrd)—nas recommended by the Right
Honourable Gentleman himself, he believed, to the
Crown, as a fit object of its bounty, and she re-
ceived 3001. a-year, with 1001. to each of the chil-
dren. Upon all,these grounds, he should feel it his
unpleasant and painful duty not only of opposing
the question, Nit' of dividing the House upon it.
Sir 3. NICIIOL thought the provision was hardly
doing an act of justice ; for it should be remembered,
that Mr. Perceval not only abandoned a lucrative pro=
fession, but the most lucrative post in that profes-
sion. His disinterestedness also, formed a claim
upon tare generosity of the House in behalf of his fa-
mily. He declined the office of Chancellor of the
Duchy of Lancaster for life, though there were in-
stances of its having been so granted, and among
others to Lord Ashburton. When lucrative situ-
ations became vacant, he did not vest them• in his
own person ; and when he was appointed First Lord
•f the Treasury, he declined the emoluments of the
situation of Chancellor of the Exchequer, not osten-
! tatiously, but clandestinely as it were, by a simple
Treasury minute. Such disinterestedness, he thought,
deserved to be recorded; and with regard to the
question itself, he did not consider the remuneration
already granted, at all adequate to the pecuniary loss
his family had sustained by his death.
Sir J. NEWPORT could not but think that they
who hereafter should read of the grant they were
then called upon to vote, would consider it as a re-
Cognition of the public services of Mr. Perceval, and
upon that view of it, he should vote against it. In-
deed, he thought the first gthnt had gone every length
the House could go, short of acknowledging the
public service of the late Right Honourable Gentle-
man.

Mr. BARHAM voted in favour of the question,
and so accordant was it to the wishes of the people,
that he believed if every man in England could be poll-
ed, man by man, each would sacrifice whatever he could
afford towards accomplishing the object. With re-
gard to the case of Officers' Widows, he did not
think it at all analogous, for an Officer accepted the
situation, knowing it to be one of danger; but a
Minister had no reason to suppose he should lose his
life in the execution of his duty.
Sir F. BURDETT would not have said any thing
respecting the character of Mr. Percent, deeming
it highly improper at this particular time) did he not
owe it to himself, after what had passed, to say, that
all the Right Hon. Gentleman's measures, deserved
not public approbation, but public reprobation.—
He did not think he should discharge his public duty,
were he to approve of this additional grant required
from the exhausted pockets of the people. He could
not but lament, estimating Mr. Percent's virtues as
he did, and the pecuniary loss that must have result-
ed to the family, and above all the present situation
of the country, that some other way had not been
thought of to alleviate the situation of the widow
and children. Had a private subscription been open-
ed, he should have gladly made a large demand upon
his private purse; but in the performance of public
duty he could not approve this additional demand
upon the public purse.

Lord JOCELYN spoke in support of the propo-
sition, as did Mr. HUSKISSON, they maintaining
that justice to the son required such a grant.
Mr. HOME SUMNER obierved, that iu the Bill
introduced by an tion. Gentleman opposite, it was
provided, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
should, after three year's service, be entitled to a
pension of 30001. per annum. Mr. Perceval's ser-
vice had exceeded that period, and if he had died in
possession of such provision, it could have been as-
suredly considered no more than fair to transfer it to
his widow.

The House then divided, when there appeared for
The Resnlut ion - - 171
Against it - - - 16
Majority-
- • —155 .

When we were admitted again into the Gallery,
we found the House in a Committee of Supply.
But Mr. WHITBREAD objected to its going on
in the absenco of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ;
and, after a few observations from Mr. WHARTON,
it was postponed till Monday.
The Scotch Taxes Bill was read a second time,and
ordered to be committed on Monday.
The Committee on the Riots' Bill was postponed
till Monday.
The House then went into Committee on the Or-
ders in Council, on the motion of Mr. BROUGHAM,
who proceeded in the examination of witnesses, after
which the House adjourned.

That he (Lord Liverpool) was authorised to ex-
press the disposition of aU his colleagues to act with
.Lord Wellesley and me, under an arrangement which
might be at once consistent with their own louour ,
and duty, and honourable and satisfactory to us;
That with respect to Lord Castlereagh, it was fair
that it should be distinctly understood, that the situ-
ation in which he stands both in this Government,
and in the house of Commons, was to be preserved
to him ; '
That with respect to official arrangements, he
(Lord L.) would not have been the bearer of any
proposition to me, but one which was understood as
comprising my friends. In answer to a question put
by me, Lord L. stated, that his colleagues were de-
sirous, that he should be appointed to the office of
First Lord of the Treasury; and that this desire was
known to the Prince Regent, when his Royal High-
" ness commanded Lord Liverpool to undertake this
communication.

Lord Liverpool added, that he was ready to answer
any other enquiry that I might wish to make ; or to
clear up any thing that he might have imperfectly ex-
plained. I said, that I thought it better to receive his
communication just as he gave it to me ; and to defer
making any remark, or giving any answer whatever,
until I should have communicated it to my Mends :
Lord Liverpool himself, undertaking to see Lord
Wellesley.
I would only, therefore, ask—Whether I was
to consider the opinion and policy of the Govern-
ment as remaining altogether unchanged upon the
question relating to the Laws affecting the Roman Ca-
tholics?

Lord Liverpool answered, that his own opinions
upon this subject remained unchanged ; and that he
was not aware that those of his colleagues had un-
dergone any change.
I then wrote this Minute in Lord Liverpool's pre-
sence ; which he read over, and suggested such cor-
rections as appeared to him necessary for making it
perfectly accurate.
(Signed)
May 17, Mt

GEORGE CANNING.

No. 11.
Minute of Conversation between Lord Wellesley and Lord Li-
verpool, 17th May, 1812.
Apsley House, 17th May, 1812, / past 5, p. m.

Lord Liverpool came to me immediately after his
visit to Mr. Canning, and remained with me for
about half an hour. Soon after Lord Liverpool's
departure, I received the annexed paper from Mr.
Canning*.
Lord Liverpool's conversation with me was sub-
stantially the same as that -which is described to
have passed with Mr. Canting. Any difference
which appeared, arose necessarily from my questions
and observations, which were made without know-
ledge of what passed between Lord Liverpool and
Mr. Canning. After receiving Lord Liverpool's
verbal communication, nearly in the terms stated by
Mr. Canning, I enquired, Ist, what was to be the
policy of the Government with relation to the Roman
Catholics ?

To this question Lord Liverpoolreturned the same
answer stated in Mr. Canning's paper, to have been
returned to a similar question. 2dly, I observed to
Lord Liverpool, that he was apprised of my opinion.
that our efforts in the Peninsula had been toridncted
on an inadequate and imperfect scale, which could
not be expected to accomplish the ultimate objects of
the war in that quarter. That I had for a long time
considered an extension of our system in the Penin-
sula to be indispensibly necessary, and easily practi-
cable: that I was aware of the impropriety (in My
present situation) of urging any detailed questions to
Lord Liverpool on this point ; but that I mentioned
it now, because it must form a principal considera-
tion in my answer to the propsition which he had
brought to me.
Lord Liverpool said, that he did not agree in my
opinion respecting the scale of the efforts which n e
had hitherto made in the Peninsula, which he thought
as great as it had been possible to make ; that there
never had been any limit to our exertions in that
quarter, but what arose out of the question of prac-
ticability (that is, the means of increasing and sup-
plying our armies), and that he had never heard any
specific plan, by which those means might have been
carried further, though the subject had been often
most anxiously considered in my presence : that cir-
cumstances had occurred since my resignation, which ,
did not then exist, and into the particulars of which
it would not be proper for him to enter at this time,
which might enable Government to extend, to a cer-
tain decree, the military operations in the Peninsula,
and the system of himself and his colleagues would
be, as he contended they always had been, to make
the greatest efforts in the cause of the Peninsula,
which the resources of the country rendered posl
Bible. A

idly, I enquired whether all the general constitu-
ent parts of the present Cabinet were to remain ? He
informed me that they were in general to remain.—
lie believed it was known to me, that same of the
Members of the Cabinet had been long desirous of
retiring, and would be ready, therefore, now to af-
ford
facilities to any new arrangement.

In answer to a question put by me respecting Lord
Sidmouth and his friends, he said they were to remain.
4thly, I stated to Lord Liverpool, that I made no
enquiry respecting the proposed distribution and nl-
location of offices ; because that circumstance would
not constitute the basis of my decision upon the p rod. '
position which he had brought to me.
Lord Liverpool observed, that the distributioa.of
offices was a matter open to future adjustment; to
be regulated for the honour of all parties.

sthly, When Lord Liverpool informed me, that
the kading in the House of Commons was to be pre-
served to Lord Castlereagh, I remarked, that in any
situation which I might ever hold in any Administra-
tion, I should feel great obligatioti to any Member of
the Government who would undertake that charge,
which war called the leading in the House of Parlia-
ment in which I sat, although I was fully aware, of
the great importance which that charge necessarily
conveyed to the person who exercised it, and of the
great influence which it must give to him in the ge-
neral administration and patronage of the Govern-
ment. •
6thly, I desired to kaitw, whether all those pet-
sons now designated by the name of the "
Qeposi-
• Vide Kr. Cooing's Maine, No. 1.
•

:-

'`.l77'

:~

L.VIL-v;11'

tion," were to be excluded from the proposed scheme
of Administration.
Lord Liverpool answered, that eo pri I of
VitzcLusloonilwakue intruded
pdreodp;osbaul,t tthoataihve
pwearssoilittsit douf
imp e
thth%
description, which I had mentioned.
7thly, Considering the course which laord Liver.
pool had observed, in making this communication, I
asked him, whether he applied to me by command of
the Prince Regent, as a part of Mr. Canning's suite?
—I reminded Lord Liverpool of the coostant and
unabated exertions which I had made to open even"
avenue for the return of Mr. Canning to the pulilfe
service, remarking at the same time, that I never
had attempted to press that point, beyond the Ito.
nour and feelings of Mr. Perceval's Administration.
I stated, that I could not consider any Administra.
tion to be constituted on. a foundation of justice ie.
wards individual talents and services, or towards the
iuterests of the country, in which Mr. Cann:n,
should not hold a high efficient situation. But 1
added, that Mr. Canning was under no engagement
to me, which could preclude his acceptance of any
Office which might be offered to him ; that, on the
other hand, Mr. Canning would certainly make the
same declaration with regard to my perfect freedom.
Lord Liverpool said, that he had pursued this course
of communication, being convinced, that under the
present circumstances, I would not accept Office,
unless a fair proposal was made to Mr. Cauning: I
I declared to Lord Liverpool, that he was correct in
gnhntillAi and
fit, and
this view of my sentiments towards Mr. Canning;
I re
we
perfectlyrepeating , f however,ree to
actt haast
eachM
might
. Ca,
, that our agreement in many great public principles,
could not affect questious of mere official arrange,
ment.

Bthly, I expressed my wish to receive this commu-
nication in writing ; to answer it in writing; and
also to submit my sentiments upon the whole tram.
action in an audience of the Prince Regent.
Lord Liverpool informed me, that Mr. Caning
would transmit to me a copy of the Minute of Lord
Liverpool's conversation taken in his presence, and
Lord Lis erpool desired-me to consider that i'aer4 as
the written communication which I wished to receive.
I agreed to Lord Liverpool's proposal on this point.
I then informed Lord Liverpool, that I would return
my answer in writing to that Paper. Whatever might
be the tenor of my answer, with regard to the great
public considerations on which it must be founded, I
expressed my hope, that Lord Liverpool would be
assured of my sincere personal respect and esteem. I
now transmit this Minute to Lord Liverpool, request-
ing him to insert any correction which he may think
requisite.
May 18, 1819. (Signed) WELLESLEY.
Corrected by Lord Liverpool, and returned to
me.

(Signed)

WELLESLEY.

No. 111".
Nurse from Mr. Canning to Lord Wellesley, iodating a Letter
to Mr. Canning from Lord Liverpool, relative tu Lad G.
tleroagb.
(COPY.)
Gloucester-Lodge, Sunday night, hirty 17. ISli
MY [Milt WELLESLEY.
_ _ _

I have just received from Lord Liverpool a letter,
of which the enclosed is a copy. I transmit it to
you, to be added, according to his desire, to the copy
of the Minute of his vernal communication of this
morning. Ever attnticiiiately your's,
G. C.

(COPY.—Iii No. III.)
Lord Liverpool to Mr. Quiniag.
(Private.)
MY DEAR CattNtvd, Fffe-houte, May 17, 1812.
I think, upon reflection, it is due to Lord Castle.
reagh to state, in writing, what I mentioned to you
vernally, that from motives of delicacy, he absented
himself from the Cabinet, on the occasions on which
the subject in your Memorandum was determined.
I did not, however, make the communication to
you, without having reason to know that he would
be no obstacle in the way of an arrangement, found-
ed on the principles stated in the Memorandum.
will beg of you to communicate this letter to any
persons to whom you may communicate the Memo-
randum.