The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-08-05 00:00:00

THE DOVAY BIBLES

Mr. RICHARD RADCLIFFE read the proceedings of the
Education Committee since the last Council.
The committee stated that the books and globes in both
the North and South Schools, which had been lent and given
by Mr. Earle, were at that gentleman's service. They left
it to be decided by the Council whether Mr. Mulleneux's
application for the Douay Bibles and other books recently
used in the schools should be granted or rejected. They
reported the number of scholors in the schools to be as
follows :

INIORTg

SOUTH

Boys.. ,
Girls..
Infants.

Boys..
Girls..
Infants

Established Church 614 I
Protestant Dissenters 2lO
Roman Catholics
Mr. MOLYNEUX moved the

Established Church 453
Protestant Dissenters B7
Roman Catholics
confirmation of the proceed-

Mr. Btaxtrr thought that Mr. Hodgson should now be
permitted to proceed with the motion on the subject, of
which he had given notice.

Mr. HonnioN was in the hands of the Council, and
ready to proceed, if they pleased.
'Mr. JORDAN proposed that the Douay Ilibles be given to
the St. Patrick's School.

The TOWN-CLERK stated that the more regular course to
pursue would be to confirm the proceedings of the committee
in the first instance, and to go on with the motions afterwards.
The proceedings having been accordingly confirmed,
Mr. HODGSON was about to proceed, *hen
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE begged to ask the Town-clerk how
far the Council would be authorised to give away or dispose
of the books in question ?
The TowN-CLERK said there was no doubt that by law
the Council had no power to dispose of any property except
for a valuable consideration, unless it were in application of
the surplus for the public benefit of the inhabitants, and the
improvement of the borough. There was an exception in the
case of appropriation of land, by virtue of a particular
local act, depending, however, in principle, upon the same
rule that applied to the disposal of surplus income. He had
the opinion of the late Attorney-General, Sir John Camp-
bell, in a case in which property was applied for to be given
up, which was to the effect that, even with the consent of
the Lords of the Treasury, the Council could not give their
property without a valuable consideration.

Mr. flonusoN.—Can we, in the instance now about to be
discussed, legally give the property away?
The TOWN-CLERK.—The legal question put to me is this—
can you legally give away this property? I certainly consi-
der these books to be property, and my opinion is that you
cannot by law give them away.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE said that the question was then
virtually disposed of, and that Mr. Hodgson's motion would
be quite nugatory and unnecessary at the present time, in-
asmuch as the Town-clerk was of opinion they had not the
power to give the property away.

Mr. TANER thought the subject had better drop, if they
had not the power, and a very unpleasant discussion would
thereby be avoided.

Mr.-BOLTON insisted that Mr. Hodgson having given
notice of a motion, he (Mr. Bolton) was competent to move
an amendment upon it, which he certainly should, to the
effect that the Education Committee give up these books.
The MAYOR.—Unless Mr. Hodgson withdraws his motion

The TOWN-CLERK said the council would understand that
the question of the appropriation of income was another
matter. The question put to him now was this—have the
council power to give away this property ? His answer was
that they could not without a valuable consideration.

Mr. .A.llclN.—Yes, unless it cgs "• for the general benefit
of the inhabitants." Now he contended that books for
educational purposes must be for " the general benefit of the
inhabitants," seeing that they must tend to remove igno-
rance and establish virtue. _ _

The Tows-CLERK was decidedly of opinion that, suppos-
ing the council had a surplus income, they might, if they
thought proper, apply this property for " the public benefit
of the inhabitants." The question, whether this application
was for the public benefit of the inhabitants, was for the con-
sideration of the council : it belonged entirely to them. As
a gift, they could not give the property away ; it must be
parted with only for a valuable consideration. _ _

Mr. EVANS could not agree with the Town-clerk. Here
was a property which was at present altogether negative in
its value ; therefore, in, giving away what was of no value, he
denied that the council would be parting with property. But
admitting it %Ails property, what were the books purchased
for ? For the council to enter upon a duty ; and having
been so purchased by the council, the council was bound to
see that those books were put into activity. He knew not
kTwth e Town-clerk could draw these very fine distinctions.
there hat
were their subscriptions and gifts of laud here and
ere for ? Might they not give these books to a regularly
acknowledged institution like St. Patrick's school with the
Sscaingoilew ? The council had given the land on which the
wh
not as built ; they had raised it into existence ; and
coo
heynci7, give itthese books, which had been purchased by the
Taonwd which were now locked up ?
T
stood. ctlxim thought he had made himself under-
Mr. HODGSON thought t4at if the council would give him
permission to go on, he should be able to prove that he was
right in the position he had taken. It appeared to him it
would not be expedient to co
place them in a difficulty astue to any conclusion w .
regarded law, hich might
nothing could arise from the particularly as
letting the subject be postponed.

He, therefore. under those circumstances, adhering most de-
cidedly to the principel laid down in his notice of motion,
and ready to maintain it with all the power he possessed, and
to exhibit the soundness of the position which the conserva-
tives must maintain if they maintained it at all, would con-

sent 10 pvstpone 1115 motion tor the present. An attempt
was now being made for the purpose of undermining and
hoodwinking the conservative party in order to gain a point
over them and to put down the principle upon which they
were acting. A property had been created by the late cor-
poration for abuse, and not for use—(hear)--but the conser-
vatives had happily got into that position in which they could
prevent the poison from being administered which their op-
ponents were willing to impart. With that view, he had
brought forward his motion to show that the conservatives
were standing upon their citadel and watch towers, and pre-
pared to defend their interests. He intended in the course
of his remarks, in support of the motion, to address a few
words to some of the conservative party, who were wavering

in their minds

r.v..iwU. U••~.4ILJIrOUIi(.J,
would withdraw the motion. [The following was the notice
of motion which had been given by Mr. Hodgson :—" The
Town-Council having been privileged, in concert with. the

declared

sentiments of a large majority of the influential
ommunity of Liverpool, to re-establish education for all
denominations, without restriction, in the Corporation
Schools, upon the sure basis of the revealed will of God, as
contained in the Bible, to the exclusion of the Irish extracts
and the Douay version, that version always containing ex-
clusive notes, deem that it would not only be inconsistent,
but a dereliction of principle, whilst rejecting these books on
religious grounds from one school, should they sanction
their presentation to any other; resolved, therefore, whilst
disclaiming all pretension to dictate or to interfere with the
religious scruples of others, that Mr. James Mullcneux's
application on behalf of the St. Patrick's Benevoleut Society
Schools, for a gift of these discarded books, cannot be com-
plied with."]
Mr. BOLTON again claimed his right to submit a motion
with regard to this application.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—This opens the whole question
again.

Mr. BOLTON meant to open it again. He should move—
" That the prayer of the petition, on behalf of the St. Pa-
trick's Society Schools, be complied with, so far as it relates
to books not now in use, or likely to be so, in the corpora-
tion schools, provided that there be no legal objection to the
same."

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORS said a legal objection had been
started by the Town-clerk.

Mr. BOLTON appealed to the Mayor, under the advice of
the Town-clerk, whether theie was any obstacle to his mo-
tion?

The MAYOR.-1 believe not

The TOWN-CLERK said Mr. Bolton was quite in order in
making his motion ; but whether the council could lezally
comply with it was another question. LThe latter part of
Mr. Bolton's motion was then struck out.]
Mr. BOLTON commenced by saying; that, from the pro-
ceedings of the Education Committee, it appeared there were
1432 children in the schools ; and out of those 1432, there
were only 99 Roman Catholics. Now, as the schools could
only be maintained for the public benefit of the inhabitants,
he appealed to every man of common sense whether there
was now in them a due proportion of that class who, from
their numbers and their great destitution, had a strong claim
upon the corporation for education? A motion was now
made that the books formerly used in the corporation schools
be applied to another institution, for the instruction of that
class of people, who had been excluded from conscientiously
attending. These books were now lying useless; and one mem-
ber of the committee was understood to have declared that
sooner than allow them to go out to propagate error,
they should be burnt. It unfortunately did appear that by ex-
ternal influences, a mischievous spirit had been engendered ;
he meant an unchristian introduction of religious fanaticism
instead of that rational good sense and Christian charity
which were the essentials of Christianity. In 1780 a similar
fanatical spirit had prevailed, and if it were now encouraged, it
would, as then, lead to riots and destruction of life and pro-
perty in Liverpool. If he could believe in the doctrine of
transmigration of souls, he should imagine that the soul of Lord
Geo. Gordon was embodied in the member for Everton (Mr.
Hodgson). He called upon some of the members to read the
history of Barnaby Rudge, by a very popular author, in
which the history of the period to which he alluded was ad-
mirably pourtrayed. There were among the members of the
Council many Mrs. Vardens who would live to see the error
of their ways, and a few Miss Migg's, who would die in their
ignorance and spite. This was to be lamented. He con-
cluded by proposing his motion.
Mr. JORDAN seconded it.

Mr. BIRKETT asked whether it was not contrary to the
standing orders to make a grant to any school unless the
same was under the management of the council ?
Mr. BRIGHT observed, that the council had been acting in
contravention of this law for many years.
The TOWN-CLERK said, the council had never made any
grant of land or money when he had not treated the question
in a similar way. He denied that the council had given land
to the St. Patrick's School.
_ _

Mr. COOPER moved, as an amendment, that the council
proceed to the business of the day.

Mr. SANDS seconded the amendment

Mr. EVANS said, before he proceeded he thought it would
not be right to suffer remarks to be made which were in the
highest degree libellous on the last Council without repre-
hension. The member for Everton had dared to tell the
Council that they had acquired a property for the purpose of
abuse. He had spoken even of the poison which they were
willing to diffuse and impart. Anything more gross, more
libellous, or more ungentlemanly he (Mr. Evans) had never
heard offered to the Council. (" Hear," from the radicals.)
The MAvon.—l think you cannot mean that term per-
sonally. •

Mr: EvANs.—Which, sir?
The MAYr, . The word " gentlemanly."
Mr. EVAN:,.--- Unquestionably I do !
The MAYOR.—I think it is a very improper word. (Hear.)
Mr. Evans.—How can I say otherwise?
The MAYoa.—Then I think it is a term that we ought not
to tolerate in this room, and I shall certainly take the sense
of the Council upon it, whether it ought not to be withdrawn.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. EvAss.—Very well; then I withdraw it. But I
shoujd be glad to know what is the situation of the Council
if we are to be told we are so depraved, so vicious. and so
altogether unfit for the trust reposed in us, that we acquire
property for abuse, and are willing to disseminate poison
among the people. _

Mr: HODGSON.—lnfidelity is poison. The example some-
times is poison. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. EVANS.—When I read the motion of which notice
had been given, I expected that it would have been unani-
mously rejected by the Council. (A laugh.) Another re-
mark the gentleman has made is, that some of the members
on his side were wavering. Indeed, I am not surprised at it;
but I am told there is a power external to the Council that
is keeping his eye on the waverers—(hear, hear)--that is
menacing the waverers, and I am not at all surprised that
that personage, in his theatrical mode of action, is not un-
mindful of a certain plague, and that he looks out everywhere
for tools in order to furnish his own designs. A person of
that sort, that assumes so much for society, is doubtless on
the look out to provide mawworms to answer his purpose,.
and serve as his tools. Honest men have often ,been be-
trayed into violence, and, even worse, by the acts of their
designing superiors. Now, sir, I believe that a good deal of
the celebrity of that person has been obtained by introducing
his name here—

Mr. PARKER rose to prder.
Mr. EVANS.-1 would ask that person are we not told to
love one another?

Mr. LLOYD.—It would be much better if the gentleman
would mention the name at once.

Mr. EARLS.--Why, it's the Rev. Hugh M'Neile, who dic-
tates to this council.

Mr. LLOYD.—Then, let him be named at once, instead of
making those allusions to " he," and " him" and " that
person," and so on. But why should a man be attacked in
his absence? (Hear, hear.)
Mr. EARLE.—And why are we attacked by him everywhere
in the town ?

Mr. LLOYD.-Why attack a man in his absence, and
when he has no opportunity of defending himself? (Hear,
hear.)

Mr. EVANS.--Because you give us only mere phantom
words to attack'. Give us a man to attack. The council
had heard a good deal about sound education, and sound
principles, but he declared that he had never heard any sound
sense from Mr. Hodgson on the subject of education yet.
Were they not ordered to love their neighbour, and were
they loving their neighbour when they were offering him
insults every day, and when they were calling his religion
" idolatry ?" if the religious Protestants of England had
the feeling of Mr. Hodgson, how could civil war be
avoided? It was an act of gross impiety, to endeavour to
put the people asunder. He knew not why Mr. Hodgson,
after the speeches lately made in parliament, had a right
constantly to get up and offer one-third of the population of
the town insults. And who was he insulting? The de-
scendants of those who had fought in the great battles which
had laid the foundation of England's power. They were
Catholic Englishmen who bad won the battles of Creasy,
Poictiers, and Agincourt, and were they to un-English their
descendants? Mr. Evans concluded by expressing his be-
lief that the people of England would never, again lend
themselves to persecution,

Mr. PARKER thougit the remarks made by Mr. Bolton
were stronger than those made by Mr. Hodgson. (Hear,
hear.) If Mr. Evans looked in the mirror, he ought to be
the last man that to such a gentleman as Mr. Hodg-
son. It was unchristian like for Mr. Bolton, and he
had no right to charge the Protestant majority of the council
with overt acts to overthrow the nation. Upon the 12th of
July a spirit of popery was exhibited in the streets, and had
it not been for the activity of the magistrates upon that oc-
casion, they would then have seen popery rampant in the town ;
but so far from their being anything that emanated from the
conservative majority of the council, tending to oppress
popery, he asserted that the conservatives were in every sense
the real liberals, and the best friends of the people. (Hear,
hear.) . - -

Mi. HonusoN thought, that after the attack—for the per-
sonal attack made upon himself lie did not care—made upon
the principles upon which the Education Committee were
acting, he might be allowed to say something in reply. The
charge of ungentlemanly conduct and gross conduct from a
gentleman on the other side—he must call him a gentleman
out of courtesy—the attack made upon him by a man such
as he was, would not, he thought, convey much reflection
either on his manners or his character. (Hear, hear.) As a
matter of manners he should not fed flattered by the alder-
man, if he were called upon to imitate either his manners or
his morals. He hoped he (Mr. Hodgson) had endeavoured
to exhibit an example which would put him into a situation
that he could not but feel elevated by comparison. Upon
that point, however, he would not make any further obser-
vations. To say that he (Mr. Hodgson) was willing to light
a match for the purpose of personal destruction, was
one of the many tortuous attempts to pervert what did
not admit of any such construction. He had said that his
fortress was one of principle, and, that if it were assailed, the
conservatives would stand ready match in hand to give a
broadside of reason—not that kind of broadside which the
gentleman was ready to pour upon men who dissented from
him. He (Mr. Hodgson) was not for the use offire-arms—
he was not for the destruction of life—but for the preserva-
tion of it. He was not for taking from any man his rights,
or for withholding their rights from the Roman Catholics,
but he was for giving all men their rights—at the same time
some gentlemen entertained a very perverted notion of
rights. He was for complying with the laws in connexion
with the law of God, and he was for maintaining the right,
constitutionally, of carrying through the sound principles of
government, but he would not make radicalism or infidelity
rampant to direct him. (Hear.) In bringing forward his
motion he wanted to exhibit, as he trusted he could exhibit,
that to give way on the present question was literally to dis-
tribute what they esteemed to be exceedingly injurious. He
considered infidelity poison, but he was rather led to believe
that the gentleman did not, unless he had changed his sen-
timents since a pamphlet of his which had been presented to
him (Mr. H.) had been published—
Mr. EVANS (under great excitement).—You have no
right to proceed in that manner, sir. He has already depre-
cated the use of fire-arms. Then I wish he would not use
the sting in his tongue in the scandalous manner he is—
(great uproar.)
Mr. HODGSON made some remark which was inaudible in
the confusion. . .

-- --...—.—.
Mr. EVANS.—You would not dare to do it, sir, out of
doors. .

The MAYOR called for order to be observed.
Mr. JORDAN said that no man had a right to call another
an infidel.
The MAYOR was not aware !that Mr. Hodgson had
applied the expression to any individual. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. HODGSON continued. At the last council they had
an application from Mr. Mnlleneux, in the hand-writing, as
ho understood, of Mr. Rathbone—

The MAYOR told Mr. irodgson he was now wandering
from the question.

Mr. HODGSON said he probably was; but at all events he
might refer to
Mr. PROCTOR. called the Mayor's attention to the fart that

disposed

the question was virtual,
having withdrawn his motion.
The MAYolt said, the only motion before the Council was
Mr. Bolton's.
Mr. HODGSON thought that under the circumstances he
was entitled to make some observations.
Mr. EARLE.—Oh ! you have made enough.
Mr. HODGSON went on to say, that although the late
Corporation bad acted with perfect sincerity in the matter
of education, what they had given as education was, in his
opinion, poison : and he would proceed to show that it was
poison if the Council• desired. (No, no, from the radicals,

If it were the Council's wish, ;;111-;;;,—;;;Z:e."'Cli
nerved cries of " vote.")
Mr. BRIGHT, amidst cries of " yrAP." said. that. tl

Bishop of Norwich and the Archbishop of Dublin had given
favourable opinions of the late system.
The MAYOR said that Mr. Hodgson had the privilege of
going into the general question first, if Mr. Bright had any
such intentions.
M- F

_al -1 ODGSON had no desire to go into the general ques-
tion, but if others did he must also.
Mr. AIKIN said he rose to reply, if Mr. Hodgson had
finished.

Mr. HODGSON said, if Mr. Aikin was going to reply he
(Mr. Hodgson) must go on, as he had not half done. (Cries
of " vote, vote.")

The TOWN-CLERK apprehended that if the Council ap-
proved of his law on the subject, the question was, was it
for the general benefit of the inhabitants that these books
should be given?

Mr. HODGSON enquired whether, after disposing of the
amendment, the Council could go to the original motion ?
The TOWN-CLERK said no ' • before the Council proceeded
to vote, the question must be decided whether it was for the
public benefit of the inhabitants that these books should be
given.

Mr. EARLE did hope and trust that they were not going
to have more speeches. Let gentlemen look at the clock.
He was not in the habit of saying much himself, and he
always did it short. (Oh ! oh ! and laughter.) Yes, he
seldom talked more than five or ten minutes at a time ; but
here Mr. Hodgson had been talking of poison and all sorts
of nonsense for a whole hour. It was out of all character.
Mr. H ODGSON.—A good deal of it is owing to yourself.
After some discussion, Mr. HonGsoN proceeded at great
length to defend the present system of education in the
Corporation Schools. He contended that the conservatives
would be guilty of a dereliction of principle if they were to
grant Mr. Mulleneux's application. He maintained that
the Corporation Schools were as much open to all denomi-
nations as they had ever been. The restrictions imposed by the
late corporation' had as effectually kept out the Protestant
children as any that were now imposed could keep out the
Roman Catholics. The council had taken the broad ground of
Protestanism. (Hear, bear.) They offered not the Protestant
Bible with notes, but they gave it to the children as it had
been fully and amply established, upon which our glorious
constitution had stood for ages, and under which, he trusted,
it would stand for ages to come. (Cheers.) They bad taken
the exact opposite to the Roman Catholic Church, which
was decidedlyopposed to the circulation of the Scriptures un-
accompanied by exclusive and particular notes, which notes
went to ineulcate the errors of popery in the strongest man-
ner. The objection was not to the Douay translation as a
translation, but to the unsoundness of the notes and the
abominable principles they were calculated to inculcate. He
would read one or two of them. He held in his hand what was
called the Rhemish Testament, published in 1582 ; and the
first note he would refer to was on the 29th verse of the 13th
chapter of Matthew, which he would read.

,
Mr. ROBISSON.—Are you going to preach from it after-
wards?

Mr. HODGSON.—That is as it may happen
Mr. ROinNSON.—Then I shall be off.

The MA.voa.—lt is not a good reason for your leaving.
Mr. ROBINSON was hastily leaving the room, when
The MAYOR called to him, "You cannot go without
leave ;" but the honourable member for Great George's Ward
had di.appeared before the sound reached him.
Mr. HODGSON then proceeded to read the note on the 29th
verse of the 13th chapter of St. Matthew, which inculcated
the destruction of heretics. He also read the note on the
9th chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke, and the 53d verse.
He stated that the notes had been since exceedingly modi-
fied, in consequence of the power which protestantisin had
exercised, and the increasing 'spread of light. He next read
the oath taken by Roman Catholic bishops.
Mr. MELLOR asked what he was reading from ?
Mr. HODGSON replied, from a letter by the Rev. Hugh
M'Neile. (Ironical laughter from Mr. Earle.)
The MAYOR asked whether Mr. Hodgson knew the oath
to be authentic?

Mr. lioncsoN said he had no doubt of it.—Mr. H., after
a few further observations, concluded by expressing a hope
that all the conservative members, who had been returned
on the ground that they would establish sound educatioh,
would support the amendment, and not allow their oppo-
nents to crow over them.

Mr. AIKIN said that if they were to go back to the days of
John Calvin they would be able to quote many worse things
than had been quoted by Mr. Hodgson from the Bible,
which had evidently been printed many years ago. He said
the charge against Mr. Evans' morals and manners was un-
fonrided, and concluded as follows :—Lord George Gordon
became a zealot, an enthusiast, and a fanatic, and ended in
being a Jew. I hope that the gentleman (Mr. Hodgson)
who became christened at 60 will not be circumcised at 70!
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE expressed himself averse to the
surrender of the books to Mr. Mulleneux, on the ground
that St. Patrick's School, for which they were intended, was
opened for Protestants as well as Catholics.
Mr. JORDAN said that was the great advantage of the
school, with which he had been connected for 30 years, and
there had been no,contest or bickering there because no reli-
gion was taught there.
Mr. BIRKETT begged to ask the Mayor whether he was
right in supposing, that he heard Mr. Jordan RRV, that he
had been connected with the management of a public school
for the instruction of the children of the poor, for a period of
nearly thirty, in which religion was excluded ?

Mr. JORDAN.—Yes. -
Mr. BIRKETT.—Then, I am shocked to hear any one ex-
press such opinions, and much more, Coming as it does from
a person of Mr. Jordan's advanced age.
After a few remarks from Mr. Parker, who denied that
the Irish Roman Catholics were opposed to Scriptural edu-
cation.

'1 he council divided; when there appeared—
For the amendment .............. 29
Against it .. . .................... 13
The amendment was consequently declared to have been
carried. The following members voted in the division :
For the amendment :—Messrs. T. Shaw, F. Shand, D.
Hodeson, W. Thornhill, W. Preston, H. Copeland, R. B.
H. Blundell, J. Mellor, T. Sands, J. Cooper, J. N. Wood,
W. Birkett, J. Procter, J. B. Lloyd, R. Rigby, J. Kilshaw,
J. Parker, T. Brassey, G. H. Lawrence, S. L. Trotman, A.
Smith, jun., R. Harbord, W. P. Freme, R. Houghton, J.
H. Turner, T. Chilton, J. Bramley-Moore, B. Molyneux,
and the Mayor.

Against the amendment :—Messrs. Holmes, T. Bolton,
J. Aikin, R. Bright, J. Priestley, R. V. Yates, F. Jordan,
J. Platt, T. Holt, T. Bulley, E. Evans, T. B. Barclay, and
W. Earle.

Mr. EARLE returned ironical thanks to the Education
Committee for having returned him his books and globes.
He had now given them to a school from which the Roman
Catholic children were not excluded.
Mr. MOLYNEUX said that Roman Catholic children were
not excluded from the corporation schools. He was always
glad to admit them, and to give them the best education
which the schools afforded.

Mr. EARLE.—A man may declare a great deal of nonsense,
but one is not bound to believe it.
Mr. BIRKETT called Mr. Earle to order. He had availed
himself of an opportunity afforded to him by courtesy of
making a false charge.

Mr,-BAucLAy warmly contended that Roman Catholic
children were excluded.

Tfie MAYOR said Mr. Earle had certainly stolen a march.
Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE hoped, as Mr. Earle was about to
leave the town for some time the following day, that he
would take with him the perpetual blister he placed on the
Council. (Laughter.)

Mr. EALE.-Ll'll bring a stronger one back. (Continued
laughter.)

COURTS OF LAW COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Cou its-ofi;WEommittee, com-
prising a reference relative to the quality of the stone to be
used in the building, and a report of the Special Committee
appointed on the Bth September last, on the subject of the
police-courts and bridewells, together with the plans for the
new daily courts, and their recommendation thereon, having
been read, a short discussion followed, at the close of which
the report was referred back to the Finance Committee, with
instructions to confer with other committees.

OBSERVATORY COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Observatory Committee, com-
prising the report and plans, with the recommendations that
the same be carried into effect, were read and confirmed.

DOCK COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Dock Committee were read and
confirmed.

THE MAYORS COMMUNICATIONS.

The MAYOR said he had only a few memorials to present.
One was numerously signed, and the parties complained of
the nuisance occasioned by the large quantities of smoke
which issued from various furnaces and factories in the town,
and of the nauseous and noxious vapours arising therefrom.
They prayed that the Council would adopt such means as
would cause a discontinuance of the nuisance.
A memorial from an annuitant was referred to the Im-
provement Committee. and another, with reference to the
garbage in St. John's Market, was referred to the Gardena'
Committee.

BILLS OF COUNCIL

The TOWN-CLERIC then read the following report on the
bills of the Council in the present session of parliament :
BILLS OF THE COUNCIL IN PARLIAMENT—REPORT OF THE

TOWN CLERK.
" The Borough Court Bill, and the Health and Buildings
Bill, have already been reported as having received the royal
assent. The Improvement and Local Acts Amendment Bill
and the Conservancy Bill—the two remaining bills of the
council—have now to be reported as having passed both
houses, and, with the royal assent, having become the law
of the land.
" The Borough Court Act will stand referred to the Bo-
rough Court Committee.
The provisions of the Health and Buildinga Act will
require the appointment of a committee by the council, but
this cannot be done before the Ist of November—the com-
mencement of the act.
" The Improvement and Local Acts Amendment Act, it
is submitted, will have tj be referred in respective parts to
the Finance, Improvement, Wateh Committee, Lighting
Committee, Cleansing Committee, and Markets Committee;
but no reference can be legally made before the Ist of Sep-
tember—the commencement of the act. It would, never-
theless, be desirable that the Finance and Markets Commit-
tee should apply part of the intermediate time to the prepa-
ration of by-laws, to be passed as soon as the references shall
be legally made to them.
The Conservancy Act will require that there should be a
committee to watch over the interests represented by the
Council and the Trustees of the Liverpool Docks. Upon
this subject, it is submitted, a conference between the Finance
Committee and the Dock Committee might be advisable, and
in the mean time this report might be deemed by the council
sufficient notice, in conformity to the standing orders, for
any appointment or reference on their part at the next
monthly council.
" Town-hall, 3rd August, 1842."
The report was received and adopted.

INTERMEDIATE SESSIONS.
Upon the suggestion of the Town-Clerk, it was ordered
that an intermediate Court of Sessions should be held on the
sth of September.

LOAN OF A HULK

Mr. BIRKETT gavenotice that upon a future day he would
call the attention of the council to the propriety of applying
to government for the loan of a hulk, to which the juvenile
prisoners might be sent for the purpose of relieving the
Present gaol, and rendering a gaol rate unnecessary.
Mr. LLOYD said, this was a very excellent and judicious
suggestion.
Mr. G. H. LAwrtEricz thought the subject well deserving
of consideration.
The TowN-CLEnic then read the presentment of the
Grand Jury at the late sessions, which appeared in the
Standard of Friday, and it was ordered to be received. The
Council adjourned at four o'clock.

COMMISSIONERS OF BIRKENHEAD'.
The commissioners under the act for the improvement (
the township of Birkenhead held a general meeting in th
Town FAIL nn the eVP .. ~ a /If

the absence of Mr. J. D. Case, the chairman,
JACKSON, the vice-chairman, presided.
The CLERK read the proceedings of the last general meet-
ing, held on the 29th ult., from which it appeared that
£2,000 had been advanced towards the £30,000 about to be
borrowed on behalf of the ferry, at £5 per cent. interest per
annum.

Mr. Wit

ROAD COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS.
The proceedings of the Road Committee were read. It
appeared that 2,000 tons of Penmanniawr stone, at the price
of 4s. 9d. per ton, had been ordered from Messrs. Baynes,
Lupton, and Co.; and the committee further recommended
the adoption of Brook-street and Pool-street as public

After a brief di:
anittee as to Pool

cussion, the recommendation of the corn

reet was confirmed

The consideratic

of the adoption of Brook-street was postponed.----
Air. LAYcocK asked with what view such a large quantity
as 2,000 tons of Penmainnawr stones had been ordered?
The CHAIRMAN replied that the stones were necessary for
the purpose of repairing the roads of the township, and that
the. cnilitar.

Mr. PARKER contended that more specific information
should be given, and urged that the question was a very pro-
per one.
Mr. LAYCOCK repeated that an order for so large a qu
tity as 2000 tons, at 4s. 9d. per ton, seemed to him to '
matter of

`ore it was that

•equent.

_owom-
missioners complain if only a few loads were ordered; and,
now they had got up to two thousand at once, although the
matter might have been discussed before, there was the more
reason for inquiry. It was a very simple question which he
had put, and it might be easily answered.
The CHAIRMAN repeated that the stones were requisite
for the use of the roads. It was upon the recommendation of
the Road Committe, approved by the Finance Committee,
that this measure was brought before the last general meet-
ing ; and it having then been sanctioned, the order was
given. The order therefore had not been given without due
consideration.

Mr. LAYCOCK.—Has the subject of purchasing 2000 ton
of stone been before the general board ?
Mr. J. S. JACKSON.—It has.

The CHAIRMAN explained that the subject had been am-
ply discussed at the last general meeting, in the shape of a
letter from Messrs. Raynes, Lupton, and Co., and then re-
ferred to the Road Committee, who gave the order with the
sanction of the Finance Committee.

Mr. LAYCOCK said that was a distinct answer to his que
tion. He now wished to know whether 4s. 9d. per ton w
the lowest regular price ?

The CHAIRMAN.-It is the same price which the parish
of Liverpool pays per load.
The proceedings of the Road Committee were then con-
firmed.

• M 1 MORIAL.
A memorial from certain inhabitants of Conway-street,
Exmouth-street, and Hamilton-street, altogether rated at
nearly £3,000, praying the commissioners to compel the
owners of property to open a road leading to those streets,
was read ; and, after some discussion, the further conside-
ration of it was deferred.

LIGHTING AND WATCHING COMMITTEE

The proceedings of this committee having been read,
Mr. WarsoN put a question to the law clerk (Mr. Mal-
laby), as to who had the appointment of proper persons to
inspect weights and measures.

The LAW CLERK said, there was a general act of parlia-
ment, enabling the magistrates to appoint proper persons for
that purpose. _ _

WATSON said, his object in asking the question was
to devise means to have such an officer upon the spot. It
frequently happened that just outside the market a party
used light weights, and there was no power to remedy the
evil. A woman came round the other day, and she sold
whit she called 411bs. of salmon to a person, which was found
to be no less than 2lbs. short ! She ought to have been sent
to the treadmill for her dishonesty. Her name was Alice
Noble, and he hoped the- reporters would publish her
namd. He wanted to cave a regular examiner or inspector
appointed for the township, to prevent this kind of imposi-
tion outside the market.

Mr. STANSFIELD said this was the province of the magis-
trates, and if they were memorialised to make such an ap-
pointment, he had no doubt they would do so.
Mr. M`NicoL thought the interference of the magistrates
would be practically useless, as the measure was only recom-
mended for the protection of the inhabitants at their own
houses.

Mr. PARKER said, the inhabitants should not buy of such
people.
Mr. BENTHAM agreed with Mr. Parker, that the inhabi-
tants had the [True"), in their own hands ; but at the same
time he thought some good would result from the appoint-
ment of an inspector.
The CHAIRMAN said, the Law Clerk had suggested to
him that the best mode would be to memoralise the magis-
trates to make Birkenhead a weighing district, and to ap-
point the person whom the Commissioners might recom-
mend.

Mr. WATSON approved of this suggestion, and he pro-
posed a resolution to the effect of it ; which having been
seconded, was carried immediately. The proceedings of the
Watch Committee were then confirmed.

MARKET COMMITTEI

After the proceedings of this Committee had been read,
Mr. PARKEIt enquired whether smoking was allowed in
the market.

Mr. LAYCOCK thought that it was provided against in the
bye laws.
Mr. PARKER replied that if it was not it ought to be, for
it was a great nuisance.

The CiSAIRMAN said, it was very desirable for every com-
missioner to point out any little grievance in the affairs of the
township ; and for his part, he felt obliged to Mr. Watson
and to Mr. Parker for having introduced the subjects which
had just been discussed. Another circumstance had come
tolis knowledge, which the commissioners ought not to per-
mit. He had learned that one individual in the market was
in the habit of purchasing up all the articles which came into
the market, and then re-selling them at an exorbitant rate.
For instance, the price of potatoes in Birkenhead market on
Saturday last was Is., whilst in Liverpool the same day the
price was only Bd. If this system was not withstood, the
commissioners would lose the whole benefit of the sales in
their market, for the inhabitants would at once go to Liver-
pool. Steps must be taken to put an end to, or counteract,
this system of forestalling. The parties in the market wished
to make it appear that the high prices had been caused by
the rates of ferryage, although it was a notorious fact that
those rates were 50 per cent. less than they were. They had
therefore no excuse on that ground.
Mr. COLE said he had on Saturday observed one in-
dividual buying up all the articles brought into the market.
that if any alterations Mr. WATSON observed, were made,
the Commissioners would be assailed with personal abuse.
Mr. PARKER mentioned, that in Liverpool, there was a
bye-law which declared that no person should be allowed to
buy and sell in the same market.

Mr. COLE said, that applied to before 12 o'clock.
Mr. PARKER.—It does.
The CHAIRMAN.—There is a bye-law to that effect on our
books.

Mr. PARKER.—Then it ought to be enforced, and carried
into effect.

The conversation on this subject then terminated.
The CHAIRMAN called the attention of the Committee to
the necessity of extending the avenue in the market. It
was so small, that there was no passing.
Mr. LAY COCK said, it had been already twice before the
Committee, and they would deal with it as well as they
could.

Mr. WATSON 'gave notice of his intention to bring the
whole subject of the improvement of the market before the
Commissioners. He was not at present prepared to fix the
day.

The proceedings of the Committee were then confirmed

PIN FOLD COMMITTEE

From the proceedings ;f the Pinfold Committee, it ap-
peared that 18s. had been received for the release of cattle
impounded since the last general meeting, of which 15s. had
been remitted, leaving a balance of 3s. in favour of the
township. The proceedings were confirmed.

FINANCE COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Finance Committee comprised the
payment of a number of accounts.
Mr. PARKER asked whether he had heard correctly one of
the items, which was the payment of some interest to Messrs.
Raynes, Lupton and Co. ?
. The CHAIRMAN was sorry to say that there had been a
bill owing to those gentlemen since 1840, and they now
made a claim for interest upon the amount.
Mr. PARKER inquired whether the amount was owing for
stone ?

The CHAIRMAN replied in the affirmative, adding, that
the charge then was the same as it was now. Messrs.
Raynes, Lupton and Co. only claimed interest after having
waited twelve months for their money ; but he was happy to
say that there would be no such claim made in future.
Mr. J. S. JACKSON observed that there was nothing so
derogatory to the character of the Commissioners as to have
to pay interest on a debt.
Mr. PARKER asked how it was then, that their affairs had
been stated to appear so satisfactory ?
The CHAIRMAN said it was from a thorough examination
of them. On a careful ins estigation of all their sources of
income, he was satisfied that there was not only ample funds
to pay all they owed, but also to relieve the ratepayers.
Mr. PARKER hoped that all these flattering prospects
would be realized.

Mr. WATSON said, he should like to see a list of the debts
owing from the owners of streets, because there were reports
abroad that some parties had been favoured.
The CHAIRMAN denied that report most emphatically.
The list called for should be furnished to the board at their
next meeting ; but he must again most distinctly state, that
no favour or partiality had been shewn to any individual in
the making of roads, or as to the payment for them.
The fact was, that the Finance Committee were totally
unacquainted with the names of those who were sum-
moned, for they had gone upon the principle of taking 25
of the highest and 25 of the lowest on the list, without re-
ference to the persons, and should do so till they met in the
middle. That was the mode they had taken to enforce pay-
ment, and nothing, he thought, could be more impartial.
The Chairman concluded by recommending the appointment
of an Appeal Committee, with power to remit the rates in
certain cases.

The Law-CLERK stated that none but the whole board
had power to make a remission.
After some discussion, the Finance Committee was em-
powered to hear the reasons assigned by parties who might
allege that they were unable to pay, and to report their
opinion thereon to the general board.
The proceedings of the Finance Committee were subse-
quently confirmed.

EXTENSION OF THE LIVERPOOL LOCAL COURTS TO

BIRKENHEAD.
The C HAIRMAN said he wished to bring under the notice
of the Law-Clerk two circumstances which he considered to
be of considerable importance to the welfare of the town-
ship. Mr. Radcliffe, the Town-Clerk of Liverpool, had in-
formed him (the Chairman) that upon the memorial of the
magistrates of the district they could have, under a general
act, all the privileges of the Liverpool Court of Requests
and of the Court of Passage.
The LAW-CLE RR said it might be so, but he was not aware
of it.

The CHAIRMAN would suggest to the Law-Clerk the pro-
priety of putting himself into communication with the Town-
Clerk of Liverpool, and to report to the commissioners at
a future meeting how far in his opinion it would be judici-
ous, in case there was the power, for them to act upon it.
And whilst upon this subject, he would suggest the necessity
of some portion of the board reporting upon the duties of the
Town-clerk and Deputy Town-clerk. Indeed he thought it
was quite time that those duties should be defined, in order that
the Commissioners might know what they were to have fur
their money. There was a great deal of casual business
going on for the township, and as he (the Chairman) had
always a dread of a lawyer's bill, he thought it quite neces-
sary for the Commissioners to know what they were to be
charged with, and what the duties of those offices were.
There was a vast deal of legal business coming on, and hi-
creasing as their affairs were, it was incumbent on the
commissioners to know on what fooling they stood in thiS
respect.
Mr. PARKER coincided with the Chairman. If £30,000
had to be raised in sums of £5OO, there would be a vast
amount of lawyer's charges.
The CHAIRMAN added, I really think it is quite time we
should know what our Town Clerk is to do.
Mr. PARKER suggested that the Finance Committee be
instructed to enquire into this matter, and to report thereon.

The CHAIRMAN approved of the suggestion. Re was
bringing all these matters forward from havingilevoted more
time and attention to the township for the last few months
than he had hitherto done; and he begged to say that

before the commissioners. (Hear, he
_,
Mr. LATCOCK asked whether the Finance Committee
should include the duties of the Town Clerk with regard to
applications to parliament.
The CHAIRMAN said, of course. They would report upon
all which the Town Clerk ought to do. He certainly should
feel a strong objection to go to the Town Clerk, if 6s. Bd.

was to be charged for every occasion.
Mr. APPLETON warmly commended the Chairman for h
efforts to obtain a cheap and effective local court for the re

Df small debts

rved that it would give
or Birkenhead, it' that

Tile CHAIRMAN looked witli a jealous eye to the town of
Liverpool having any power on the Birkenhead side of the
water; but, at the same time, if he could get any advantage
by being yoked with it, he should be glad to accept it.

The LAW CLERK had no hesitatiOn in saying, that this
was a matter which for a long time he had considered desi-
rable; and he had more than once conferred with the Town

lie desirab.

feness o

pool extended to places in Cheshire within a limited range,
i❑ which court they shoull be enabled to try all cases under

£5O at a cheap rate

The CHA IRMA