The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-07-11 00:00:00

shick but
anii be •

brought

Lord
exercised
I be 1
On the
Noble 1
abuses in Scotland, however clearly the case might be
made oat. He then spoke of the overhearing cott►luct
of the Lord President, and mentioned an instance of
his ordering an individual from the Bar, who com-
plained that the Acts of Sederunt were against the
law of the land. The Noble Lor►l would perhaps deny
this, but be proposed to give him an opportunity of
proving, if he could, that the charge %Via 1111(OUneled. in
the course of next Session. He thouglobiliinisters
ought to cause an inquiry to be set on foul, to see that
the subject, when seeking fur justice, was not met with
injustice.
Lord BINNING said, whatever the Ilon.Gentleman
might think on any rid of his conduct, was to him a
matter of perfect indifference. Those who knew Isis
eharaeter, would know that he did not deserve that
that should be believed of him whicl► the Hun tent.
had in no very decorous language imputed. Ile felt
indifferent as to what the Hon. Gentleman u.ight think
of his (Lord Binning'") relation, the lor I President
11 ,ye ; but he was nowilli rig that his statement should
appear to go forth with the sanction of the House.—
He verily believed the Hon. Gentleman had brought
forward a matter of which he knew very little. It was
impossible for any one t,►en in that House to know
h on the subject, am: it was very easy to bring
forward statements at the end of the Session, like
those of the lion. Gentleman to favour a particular
view. The lion. Gentleman might conscientiously
wish fur a Reform in the Court of Session, but he
would put it to himself if he bad bronght it forward
fairly on the present occasion. He thought lie could
pledge himself, that in toe next Session the charge, if
brought !onward, would not g) nnrefuted. For the
Lord President Hope, be believed it was eel! known
that his character had ever stood high in general esti-
mation as a Judge and a man. It might have hap-
pened the daring conduct of some inelividnal of little
respectability bad called down the indignation of the
Court and caused his removal from the liar, but he
was confident that the Lord President did ant merit
the character which hail been given of him. lie (Lord
Binning) would not oppose the motion before the
House, but for his own part he doubted whether ;lie
Petition ought to be printed.
On the ►lnestion being put, the " Noes" were load,
and the Gallery was cleared for a division. The House
did not divide, and we utielers!and the motion fur print-
ing was nut carried.

OENF.R Af, DESFOURN F: 11'X.
Mr. K. DOCCII.AS presented a Petition on behalf
of lien. Desfourneanx, on the late decision of the
llonse, with revert to the linadalimpe claims. praying
that an opportetnity of offering farther evidence mi..; lit
be afforded to him. _

The SPEAKER inquired whether this Petition
which referred to a grant of public money had the
sanction of the Crown

The CHANCEL.Id►R of the EXCIIE:41:Ell, after
the Lite decision of the !binge, thought in his situa-
tion it would not become him to take any further liter
in the business.

The Petition was of course dropped.
SOCIETY FOR THE SUPPRESSION OF VICE.
Dr. LUSIIINGTON presented a Petition from Win.
Clarke. Bookseller, of 2UI, Strand, compl:rinins.• of
hardships sustained from certain prosecutions insti-
tuted by the Society for the Suppression of Vice.—
One part of the Petition, if true, seemed to him of
great importance, as it chewed the wry in which all
such Societies proceeded. lie stated, that an old man,
whom the Petitioner verily be•lietesi to his employed
by the prosecutors, had come to his shop and purchased
.i work, entitled " Killing, no Murder.' which was
written by Colonel Titus, and which contained an
exhortation to murder Oliver Cromwell. he old
man said, '• This is a good book, and the principles
which it contains might be well applied to Castlereagh
atisl his junto." To this the Petitioner answered,
that the book was written at a partien!ar time, an I
under peculiar circumstances, and that its principles
were not generally applicable to the present times."—
The conduct pursued in this case seemed to ,heat• that
it was the object of those u•h.' were thus e►nployeel to
' instigate to the commisssion of the offence whicl► they
were retained to detect. lie for his out, tuft ab-

horred the use of spies under any and under all cir-
cumstances. The Petitioner comrlained that he la-
boured under ditliculties with which he should not
have to contend if he were prosecuted by the Attorney-
General. as he had been refused a copy of the indict-
ments preferred against him. Notwithstanding the
observations whirls he had been called upon to make
on the Society which load taken upon itself to be the
guardian of public morals, he trusted that lc . shouhl
not be considered the less willing to detect blasplse•
moss' anal immoral publications, in whatever form
they usight present themselv. s.
Mr. WILBERFORCE trossldle the last to prevent
an individual front exercising the sight of petitioning.
uhich every British subject possessed under our glo-
rious Constitution, but he put i.t to the Goose whether
the representations of an individual who got a living
by selling publications like those which had been al-
luded to, or the statements made on the part of the So-
ciety by whom lie had been prosecuted, ought to he
most attended to. lhat the Societies employed spies
and informers he disbelieved, and if in any instance it
would be proved that a person connected with them
hid far overstepped his duty as to urge the Contusission
of an offence, he was sure that the Society would be
as much disposed to proceed against that person
ai the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could be, and I
would instantly discharge bins front their service. He
then adverted to the remarks snide on an individaal
on a former evening, anal declared it to hr his convic-
tion from long acquaintance nide him, that he would
not connect himself with any Society, front the mo-
%tiers imputed to bins, nor lend himself to institute pry,
• ceedings against individuals, wills a view to Isis own
emolument.
• Mr. HOSHOUSE wished to mit if any thing had
yet both done in the case of William Beebow, and it
the Attoenertieneral could • tilt whether or not the
trial was coming on: tie (Mr. Illobhouse) had this

~.

M r.-HOBHOUSE expressed himself satisfied.
Br. LUSHINOTON explained with respect to what
he had said of the Society for the Suppression of Vice,
and 'indicated his own conduct in bringing forward
the Peition. He threw no new imputation on the So-
ciety, nor did he renounce any opinion that he had be-
fore advanced. The course of proceeding of which
lie complained was common to ail Societies who em-
ployed such agents. It was in human nature that it
should be so, and that had been fully exemplified la
the tours- of the last three or four years.
Mr. WILBERFORCE rose--
The SPEAKER suggested, the Hon. Member bed
better speak on the next question.
Tbe Petition being then ordered to lie on the tablet
on the question that it should be printed,
Mr. WILBERFORCE observed, that it might be
true that persons employed to purchase a libel with a
view to prosecution, might he liable to abuse the trust
reposed in them, but would the Hon. and Learned
lientlecrian point out any better mode of proceeding ?
If there were any other mode by which the purpose
could he accomplished, he doubted not it would be
adopted by the Society foe the Suppression of Vice, as
well as by the Constitutional Association.
Dr. LUSHINOTON complained, that presenting
such a Petition, he was to be put on his personal de-
fence, nor n-as he to point out the mode in which those
societies should carry on their proceedings. The
principle he should be disposed to lay down in such
eases was this, that the party employed on such an oc-
casion ought not to be paid. The Petition was or-
dead to be printed.
I Mr. WI LBERFORCE moved that an humble Ad-
" dress shoold he presented to the King, praying his
Majesty to communicate a Report made to the House
of Representatives of the United States of America in
favour of granting mutually the right of search for
slaves in ships belonging to the two countries—Eng-
land and America.
After a few words from the Marquess of LONDON-
DERRY. the motion was agreed to.
Mr. RUSIROLD presented a Petition from an indi-
vidual, praying for a repeal of the Act of Queen Ann,
protecting the property of servants of Ambassadors
from Foreign Countries from being liable to debts con-
tracted.—Ordered to lie on the table.

aI.:%IIIAN TA3LIF.

Mr. BERNAL wished to know whether any answer
had been received to a communication understood to
have been addressed from this country to the Russian
tiovermurnt, on the subject of the Tariff lately under
consideration.
The Maniac's of LONDONDERRY said the latest
intelligence from St. Petersborgh hail only announced
the arrival of the Emperor in the Capital. Till he
arrived, it had been understood the decision c-uld nut
be lisd. Ihe last cominunicstion which had been re-
ceived on the subje:t he had the satisfaction to state,
was of a favoutable description.

At necessary to do. It was at all times with the greatest
pain that lie made any ungracious observations towari's
the Noble Lord ; soul he always felt regret 'Weed with
the necessity which compelled him to io so in the die.
charge which he conceived to be his duty.. After the it
telligence that had recently been received from St.
Helena, and considering the repose in which the Noble
Marquess now described the country to be, he wished
biksxnui w.nci
mdi when,
intended
twelve
teefst oini.sv:eratA"tind:
erifut
stee.toaroeufetrtwhtityleeheeL
oaocnotfpunter ea:the:holt eueuxasns,
t enormous
;se f.rnr Majesty's
y7vteau sws wAel .hirers
rx d considered
nowutpolwnshtutrMinisterswhen
our friend and ally
Throne, and the Noble Magpies, opposite had so per-
manently established the balance of power on the
Continent, a standing army of about :01,1100 men was
greatly beyond the necessary amount, and ought to be
reduced.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY always received
the greatest pleasure in answering any question pet
him by the Noble Marquess, if in his power. To answer
that which he had now put, however, would oblige hi.
to go into long details which would be entirely oat
place upon the present occasion. All he could say was
that great reductions were in contemplation, bat
what extent they would go, he was not then prepared
state.
Col. DAVIES said that there could be no reason fur
not reducing the forces at St. Helena forthwith.
Mr. (h. RENNET wished to ask the Noble Marquess
.1.
why the French Surgeon of Bonaparte did not sign the
papers as to his appearance after death?
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY was not aware •
of the fact. He knew that the Surgeon was present at
the death of Bonaparte, but he had no knowledge of his
signature bring affixed or not to the paper alluded to.
PoPC LAR EDUCATION.
Mr. S. RICE rose to move that the 14th report of
the Commissioners on Education in Ireland be re-
printed. Since the union not less than 1,200,110e1.
of the puhlic money has been expended on education
in Ireland. On the ground of economy, therefore, as
well 4s on other c.msiderations, it was important to
inquire into this subject. But if the co 1111 l sissionets
in re right, this money had not only been vainly, but
must mischievansly expended. Three establishments
in Ireland had been the objects of very extravagant
expenses. The Protestant Charter Schools had re-
ceived 1i22,011ti/.; the Foundling Hospitals had received
upwards of 599,11011/., and the Asso.'iation for the
Discouragement of Vice, which he could tell the lion.
Member Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) was in Ire-
land an institution for the education of youth, had
also received large grants. In every one of those
establislonetits proselytism uas the great object. This
excited a spirit of controversy and hostility most bane-
ful to education an to peace ami harmony. The
very moment and exclusive Catholic establishment
was put up, the Protestants put up an exclusive.-Pro'
limiest establishment. In this contest the Government
had Interfered mischievonsly for Ireland, and extract-
gently and expensively for this country. When the
fifth finance report had been made, 1,200,000/, had
been expended. This very year there bad been
100,000/. expended. With the view of remedying
this ahuse, be now moved that the 14th report of the
commissioners be reprinted.
Mr. BROUGHAM concurred in every thing that bad
fallen from his lion. Friend, relative to the ossisehievons
tendency of the exclusive Protestant Schools in Ireland.
He wished now, in pursuance to a notice which he had
given, to state in a few words the reasons why he had
delayed bringing forward his Education Bills for the
present Session. Those reasons arose out of the conflicts
between the Church Establishment and the Dissenters, 4
owing to the same causes that disunited the Protestants
and Catholics in Ireland. Ile did not now regret that
his professional duties had prevented hint from bringing
forward this subject earlier in the Ses'iun, because the
delay had given birth to a controversy whirls he hoped
would do much good, by putting the country in I:posses-
sion of the principles upon which the measure for pro-
viding for the Education of the Poor were founded; and
also that it would remove many of the objections that
had been urged against them. lie could out, however,
flatter himself that perfect satisfaction would be given
to both parties, on account of the wide difference which
he saw between them. Ile saw the greatest objections
urged by the Dissenters, because they considered
that too much was granted to the Established
Church. On the other hand, the Members of the Esta-
blishment saw that too touch hail been yielded to the
opinions of the Sects, and too little to the peculiar tenets
of the Church.. Between these perfectly diametrically
opposite desires, he could nut see how either party
could be entirely reconciled. Yet lie did hope that
further discussion of the subject would dispose botit
parties to meet liberally on the one humid, by concession
or the other. lie had observed with satisfaction, that the
controversy had been carried on wills very few exceptions
indeed by persons on both sides, who were sincerely
impressed with the necessity of general education.—
Animated by this spirit, it was only necessary that they
should have time. when all heats would subside, and a
better understanding would he come to. 'This was a
principal reason why he postponed bringing forward the
measure. In postponing it, he should only remind both
parties how great were the concessions which each de-
minded. He should say to those who said that too
much was left open to the Sects, that if any thing lett
were granted, they were asking the Dissenters to sup-
port schools from which their own children would be
excluded. Therefore it was only for the Churchman to
do that little which he (Mr. Brougham) contended wet
necessary to connect the School system with the Esta-
blished theirch: but beyond what was necessary for
that purpose, lie ought not to advance a single step.
lie was not only bound to act upon the merits of the
question, but upon the broad principles of liberality and
Justice. Dissenters he should also say, letthetn. look
to what they asked of the Church, and even if nu mo-
dification of the measures which hail been introduced to
the House were to take place, great sacrifices had been
made by the Church to their principles. He was
great hopes, however, that this IlleitSlltCll could be 0111.
%Wm.:aids toslitied, and there were one or two pointy
which hail been chiefly objected to that could he so mo-
llified without any difficulty. lie was
that there was much derp.rooted preji
religion which ought to lie respected
notwithstanding that it was felt and
justice. What the Dissenters objected
was, the principle upon witich.all tl.
had originated in the Bible Societies,
of Bell and Lancaster.—(llrar.)---B
to share in the management, and
wished that the Catechism and
be used, and that atteudance at the

• ...4111011, ..aillimrimilpha. ..... - - - '"e , -.••••••-•" -
. , .
- .
• . i
Thr
ether the troops to be assembled wauld exceed in shwa I* 411
its Petition 'would prove to. helonr.to a class of day received a letter from Mr. Benbow, in which he Koh thesrr%genanls. LIFT 10901
but too_ many were presented to that Hutise, saiii:be did not believe that the trial !costuming on--
number those which bad attended previous Coronations
must at an events contend that it had been at least that he knew nothing about it.
' • '
The llarquess of LONDONDERRY was not aware of that rothiai
ht forward at a very inconvenient time. The ATTORNEY-DENIM IL had been with the the numbers used on former occasions. There would
he as many soldiers present as would be considered be taught.
dA. HAMILTON complained of the powers 'Chief Justice Abbott that very day„, and learning that to `4 • into the Hog
sed by the Lords of Session, 1 the trial was not likely to conic on, he had thought I add a fitting splendour to the occasion. He could assure • for in conk
t Petition was ordered to lie on the table. any idea that the general tranquillity would be disturbed. L: '
it unnecessary to take any immediate step. As far the Noble Marquess, that not one would be there under . 'loners is 1
as his authority would go, it would be interposed to
—(.11, ear, bear.) fr ' granted In tl
the question that it should be printed,
great lotting
HUME said, lie had little expectation that the procure the liberation of the party on giving moderate
!he Marquess of TAVISTOCK was sorry to trouble peer eledd e
Lord would any favour
..atrp_t_to...7.di.rieus.s. 1 secltitir.ityt.4
ORIMITSE etnressed himself satisfied. the Noble laird with another question, which lie thought 1 soeseehleg•
it tircessarr to do. It was at all times with the greatest could tie lit