The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-04 00:00:00

.
THE STATIMMAN.

111; present or former year, inasmuch as, hedependently of
the mistake, certain arrears had fallen in which wt're not
to he expected in other years. He won Id therefore commence
with the year 1817, and proceed up to 1821. The inter-
est and management of the National Debt had been as
follows
For the year 1817
1819
1820
1821

. £31,266,601
. 31.351.751
. • 30,792,1125
. 31,252.612
. 31,966,076

In 1822 the charge was 31,986,0001, making an increase
since 1817 of upwards of seven hundred thousand
pounds ; that this increase had taken place he pledged
himself to prove before a Committee of that Huns No-
thing was mere absurd or fe!lacious than the system upon
which our Sinking Fond had been conducted. But be-
fore he proceeded to point out the opera'ion by which
that Fund was managed, be wished to say a few words
as to its origin. It was established by Walpole in 1716,
—in 1727, it was increased by a suns of four buialred
thousand pounds. It went on increasing for some years.
until a reduction of the interest took place; it was redu-
ced from six to five per cent in 1727, from that to four per
cent. a few rears after, and at a still later per'o I to thrt e
per cent. This raised the Sinking Fund to 7,000,0001.
-lint in one year they took 6,638,0001. from it ; —in the
following year they also took from it, and thus they went
on until they left not a shilling to be applied to the ori-
ginal purposes of the Fond. After alluding to the ob-
servations of Dr. Price, the principles of which are so
well known, in support of his argumcn's with respect to
the Sinking Fund, the hon. Member proceeded to state
that the actual amount of Revenue derived from taxes
in Great Britain. from the sth Jan. 1793, to the sth Jan.
1817, eels, 1,114,318,5631. and the expenditure during the
same period for charge on the Debt, as it stood prior to
the sth January 1793, for expences of civil "Govern-
ment, the navy, ordnance, army, ordinary and ewtraor-
dinary, miscellaneous services and ch arges of manage-
ment, including a 15058,164,7161. for subsidies to Foreign
Power', and 16,685,1241. balance of amount remitted to
Ireland, and hi fact including every charge, except that
charge on money borrowed since 1793, was only
1,252,667,6031. excess of expenditure over income,
138,349,0041.; to cover which no less than. 618,163,8571.
was raised by creating 879,289,9431. of nominal capital,
and increasing the issue of Exchequer Bills 33,289.8001.
at an annual charge on the Funded Debt alone of
311,179,3631. out of which 188.522,2401. was paid to the
Commissioners for retlacill the National Debt, with
which they reprehend Stock, the dividend on which
antoureed to 9,168,2331., leaving an anneal charge in
perpetuity of no less than 21,006.1301., in consequence
of not having raised the 138,349,0401. in taxes during
the 24 years, or about six millions a-year (as they might
and ought to have done, by raking the taxi s of each
' year in such a manner as to 'sleet the public expenditure),
and leasing 429,578,8191. of moor:- as the capral sant
raised to meet the said deficiency of inctsine of
138,000,0001., and increase of charge, which an increase
of Sinking Fund occasioned ; wherehy, had sufficient
only been raised to mike good the deficiency of income,
393,01'0,0001. mould have anfficed the annual charge;
or, which would have been 2,433,3101. less, and which
excess of charge had kern occasioned by keeping up a
Sinking Fund, at a loss of 81,110,3331. of stock in the
Three per Cents. The Honourable Member pro-
ceeded to argue, that the system of the late Chancellor
of the Exchequer, namely, that of sending money into
the market (by placing it at the disposal of the Commis-
sioners of the National Debt) had the effect of raising
the market against himself. The loss occasioned by the
Sinking Fur.d for 24 years by sufferance of purchase and
sale of stock, was upwards of 20,0,0,0001. and by the
compound interest, bonuses, &c. it amounted to
81,000,0001. Adverting again to the operations of the
Sinking Fund, the Honourable Alcanher said that it ap-
peared from a Statetnent of the Actual Revenue derived
from Taxes in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland, from the period of the. Union of the two Exche-
quers, on the sth of January, 1017, to the sth of Jan.
1822; and the Expenditure during the sain period, in.
eluding every charge, except Sinking Fund:—
Income. Expenditure.
,057,650.589 £5B 544,049
59,667,941 57,872,428
58,680,252 57,392.544
19,769,650 57,476,755
60,686,076 57,639,5193

1817 .
18123 .
1619 .
Ir2o .
1321 .

Totals . £296,454,53t1 £288,925,663
Excels of Income . . . 7,525,51i9 •

X 2911,454,538
Yet, notwithstanding this excess of income, no less than
90,761,9201. of money has been rake.' in the five years
to maintain a Sinking fond, 82,053,7581. of which is
stated to hare been applied to the reduction of the Na-
tional Debt; but although the debt since the sth of Jan.
1817, has been reduced 211,22'21. per annum, by expiry
of terminable annuities. The Honourable Member went
on to say, that the financial policy of the late Chancel-
-1 for of the Exchequer bad always the effect of raising the
market against bun; with a nominal surplus of seven
million, he went into the market and borrowed upwards
of 90,700,0001., eighty-two million of which went to the
Sinking Fund, that was to say to purchase sto.-k, in
order to delude the public and keep up public credit.
The system which had been pursued had giren a peat
facility to foreign loans. For himself, he deplored that
the capital of the country should be drained oat in the
shape of foreign loans; indeed, he understood it to hare
been a well received joke at Congress that England
should contribute to the wants of the Continent by sub-
sidies in time of war, and by loans ire time of peace (hear,
hear!). To return to what he had heroic stated, it wa►
nonsense to maintain that we bad an available Sinking
Fund of five million, while Ministers were obliged to go
into the in irket to borrow two million. This was a sys-
tem of delusion which it was unnecessary to practise. It
could only be of use where there was a striking of public
credit. Now lie considered public credit to be similar to
the credit of un individual in private life. While such
a person paid the demands upon him regularly, lie was
said to i.e in good credit. So lie conceived it to be with
a Government ; the claims upon them in the shape of in-
terest were claims in perpetuity, and so long as they
were able to meet those claims, they (the Government)
' must be considered to be in goad credit. It was the
height of absurdity to borrow ninety millions in the
course of five years for the sole purpose of placing
S2,000,00:11. of it in the bands of the Cominissioners for
the reduction of the National Debt.— In 1819, the house,
at the instance of the late Chancellor of tie Exchequer.
voted thiee milliuns of additional taxes ; he would
ask the Col ttttt ittee to look back and say, was there any
foundation for that abominable vote: It was a vote to
encourage profusion and extravagance, and not to pay
off dela. (hear, hear!) It was said that a surplus was
necessary to maintain public credit, bet was not public
credit maintained? Did it sot stand high for many
years, when they had no surplus whatever: tientlentsn
e-ho attribute all the evils of the country to the change
in the currency, complain of the advantage possessed hp
the public creditor. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
gives him that advantage, but lie gives him inure; he
creates a surplus for his ben, lit. It would be said, will
von leave na surplus ? He would say, rep, 1:1 five mil
bola, and you will have a nun Lon and a half remaining.
There was no necessity fa•r kr. ping up a Siuking Fund
at a time when the pressing distress and suffering ut oae
particular interest, the most important in the country,
moods° mach in need of relief. Fur what was the Sini:-
jug to be kept up ? why, that the Minister may on

occasion have something to grmiple al. lithe vote rf
three
say, thatmiliieo the
s had not been agreed to in 1819, would any
man
present amonnt of expenditure would,
have been kept up ? He called upon the Haus • not to
agree to the proposition of the Right Hun. I:en lemon,
it was not necessary to keep up a surplus of 5 millions
fur the piirpose of preserving public filth —public credit
will be preserved as long as the public creditor is regu-
larly paid. From 1792 to 1817 there was n t surplus,
and yet public credit was high. The Howe, instead of
ennfiding in any Ministers—insteed of leaving- at their
disposal a large surplus, should hold • strict hand over
the public purse, and regulate the income with the ex-
penditure of the country. It h sal been said, if you have
oot a surplus—if there should happen to he a deficiency
--ewhat in that case will become of the public creditor'?
Why, what ht • ames of him every quarter, when a defici-
ency oc.cura—when sometimes it happens that HO less a
sum than H millions was to be provided for by Exche-
quer Bills ? The Honourable Member fur Tatintou had,
said will you stand still ? it were better to stand still
than to go bark. In every proposition of that descrie-'
tion which was sulimitte 1 to the house, they were
sure to go bark (hear, hear, heir!) Tee lionnorable
Member desired them to persetere, but in the present
state of that House was it to he supposed that Ministers
would bi• opposed with any success where the Minister
comes down to lay his hands upon a surplus revenue, in
order to prevent the imposition of ne .v taxes? Ile did
not hold that the Sink ug Fund would be of no real eV
feet, and that on the other hand relief from taxation un-
der th•present circumstances of the country ayes most
•leeirablee. He Was sure that for the stability of public
credit there was no just apprehension to he entertained.'
He had the highest opinion of the resources of this coupe
try—he was convinced that under fp od management
they would increase. If burthens were more equally
spread, they would be more light to the great body of
the people. The Sinking Fund hail ever been little
better than a system for borrowing with one hand and
paying with another. If the house should differ with
him es to the propriety of taking it all away, they
would, be had every assurance, agree ni la him that the
new Sinking Fund of three mil inns should not be left
in the hand, of the creditor, but biloOlll be applied to
relieve the people from the pressure of taxes.
Mr. BAILING said he could not lint feel surprise that
a Gentleman of so much candour as the Honourable
sfember for Aberdeen, should have brought himself to
say, that by peying ()tithe debt the country would only
go back. If his Hon. Friend argued, that the system
of paying and harrowing in time of war was bad, he
(Mr. B.) wont! not object to the preposition, but the
case was materially different in time of peace, when real
payment was made. It was only in time of peace that
we could effectually redeem the charges of the war. Yet
even in time of wa: something might be effected, for a
fictitious Sinking Fund might tend to support public
credit whim large loans were wanted. Sappose a loan of
thirty millions were required, wool l it not he worthy of
consideration, whether it should not be advanced to 35
millions, leaving 5 millions fur a Sinking Fund, instead
of having only 30 millions without it. This system ;al-
ways served to keep alive the market, and prevented too
great a prernre upon it. lie was nit, however, dispos-
ed to urge this point ton strongly, yet the case made
out by.hit Hon. Friend was by nu means so dear as lie
ripposed. Fur Isis own part, he hoped that the present
Chancellor of the Exchequer would never have recourse
to the system of borrowing with ore head, and paying
with the other ; for whether annuities 'or bills were
brought into the market, the effect would still be the se ne.
There would obviously he a great advantage in turning
over the whole of our disposehle resource: to the Sine-
hie Fund. The only object which the late Ch incellor ,
of the Exchequer seemed to herein view in adhering to
the horerwwitose sod pitying system, was to make it appear •
that the` inking Fend was 1 .rger than is at as in reality.—
These was in this principle a great deal of that vulgar va-
nity, which made people wish to be thought richer than
they were. He certainly was of opinian that it would be
better to get rid altogether of the system which the la
Chancellor of the Exchequer had pursued in this respect.
But now proceeding to the niore important consideration
as to whether we should have a Sinking Fund at all, be '
should say that this was a subject of very great noment.ll
Some gentlemen looked upon this measure as affording
relief only to one class; just as if that class had not as
much interest as any other, in seeing that the affa;rs of
the country were well managed. But, be would say, that
if any class bed a paramount interest in the proper al-
ministration of the affairs of the country, it was that
class which invariably stood by the country in all her
difficulties.—(Hear, hear.) But those gentlemen who
entertain the notion that one class only would be hem,
fitted by the measure, sought principles they would have
public affairs condncted by. It appeared that a Right
Honourable Friend of his (Mr. Tierney) thought that
some surplus Revenue was necessary by way of a Sink-
ing Fund. Now, he (Mr. B.) hail proposed that it
should be brought down to 3,000,11001., and he could not
see what great advantage the public would di rive from
making it less by one million or a million aid a half.—
But suppose the income of the country should fall off by
.1000,0001. or 4,000,000/. which wes very likely to
happen, would any man assert that some provision was
not necessary to meet that contingency? Any per•
son who looked at the iucreass of the Revenue, must
see that it was to be attributed to the al eration
that had taken ii!aee in the currency. Mechanics.
lab 'firers, and artisans were paid nearly as high at
during the war, for the produce of labour had not
fallen in proportion to the
_price of provisions.—
(Hear, hear.) Ibis Honourable Friend the Alember. for
l'ortarlington (Mr. Ricardo), had talked a great deal
about "Alushaa's Tables," and the relative value of
gold and silver, as showing the reduction in the pri-e of
labour.—lint if they looked to the actual state of the
fact, they would find that very little reduction hail taicen
'ace im common mechanical labour; and none at all in
labour that required a higher description of skill.
Bread, however, and most of the articles of food being
now reduced to half the former price, the p-ople wore
enabled to spend so much snore in tea, gin, and other
Excisable commodities. Bence the increase of the Reve-
nue, while provisions had fallen so considerably ia price.
In the items of Assessed 'faxes, however, which inure
immediately bore upon country tien•lemen, there was a
great deficit. Suppose that in the course of the ensuing
year, whether from an increase in the price of bread er
any other cause, there should he a falling off in the Re-
venue to the amount of 2,009,0001. or 3,0:10,0001. he woe
sere it would be the opinion of every reflecting 'hind
present that any radii f would be fatal which might go to
sacrifice the credit of the country. Looking at the asp et
of the present times, he thought it highly priabeb!.• that
we might require a naval demenstra ion in the Me liter-
renean ; anti how were we to prepare for that in any
other contingency, if our revenue was to be cramped:
We htd only two resources for r 'Wogminty—to tax
and to Worrow. But, its his opinion, noiliime was so fatal,
or so much to be avoided as all unsteadiness iO tax aim'.
We might, peihaps, want 6;1)0,0001. orh,000,0(.0 . tor wome
'sudden emergency, for which taxes were to be imposed ;
but the emergency night soon cease to exist ; whereas
the misebii( resulting from the imposition of fresh taxes
would still be felt. Theis the other way for raising sup.
plies was by the proper use of the funding system. Upon
this principle the nation might burrow on all reasonable
oecastons, provided it Was always ready to repay the
loan. But how could they expect to borrow when they
used all the arguments possible to support a proposition
which teuded to destroy public credit? Some lion.
Gentleman called this an equitable adjustment, but it
• might more properly be called a convenient alljuituicat.


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_
_(Hear, hear !) He re told not, hOwever, say, that Ets
Hon. Friend (Mr. Marne) Meant to dethroY Piblic credlitt•
but how was it to be maintained if there was so smiler
revenue left? Could they suppose that people would be
so mad as to lend money where there was all borreiVeg ,
on one side and no payment on the other? Some poor
ignorant old women might he credulous enough to
think that the people of England guaranteed the loan;
hut he would a iy, that it would be
.quite impossible to
find idiots enough to part a ith Clew money on such a
system. Setting aside altogether the abominable moral
principle of deceit which the coestiim involved, he would
say ti a: no man of common sense would think of lending
money on such terms ; and it was impossible to poiut
out any mode upon which the tibances of the country
could he conducted, unless the expenses of the war were
paid off in time of peace. As to the proposition for a
Property Tax, he thought it very exceptionable, and by
no iee has to be relied upon. The principle of selling
annuities to purchase stock ought certainly to be abut.
cloned. He wiped the plan would be reconsidered, and
seas h ertain that the Right Hun. Gentleman the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer would see the advantage of puts*.
ing an opposite course.—(Hear; hear!)
Mr. T. WILSON supported. the resolution. It wale
only in time of peace that we could make the necessary
rivision fur the expenses entailed by the war. Other
countr;es sanctioned this principle, and it would be ex-
tremely dangertets for us to depart from it. He denied
that we paid 1661. sterling fur every 1001. we had.
borrowed, as had been stated by some Gentlemen.
Ihe Hoimurable Member concluded some other
o' a rteions by saying that the agricul.urists
bed got high prices during the war in con- .
sequence of public credit being upheld by theans of the
Sinking Fund.
Mr. D. GILBERT was glad to find that we bad now
a clear Sicking Fund, and hoped that the present Chan-
cellor of the Excheqner, who had commenced his career
so auspiciously, would long continue in office, and that
if he hid recourse to new loans, lie would raise a fund
to provide for thew It appeared to him quite absurd
to think that a remission of taxes to the amount of two
or three millions, would be productive of any great gene-

ral advantage.
Mr. 11. G. BENNET was strenuously opposed to the
existence of a Sinking Fund. If the boa. Metnber.
(Mr. D. Gilbert) thought a reduction of 2 mti'sintls an
idle delusion, he could not consider a reducitoo of See
millions in that light, fur it would afford subst n-
tial relief. It was clear that if the Committee assented
to the vote proposed there would be an end to all tttrthrr
reduction of taxation. The hon. Member for T4lllllOll
mereioned that in addition to the security which a sinks'
ing fund It ould afford the public crediter,it would also be
a convenient resource in case tl.e country was to be i nvo I v •
ed in a war. Hut it was more expedient to get rid of
taxes, while the country was in a situation to do so.
Mr. J. S3lllll said, he would, support any proposi-
tion spiels had for its object the relief of the agricultural
classes, but it was of the first importance to keep up
.pnblic credit. The plan of a Sinking Fund was adopted
in eery state in Europe; and the abolition of that fund
ould have the worst effect, and shake the confidence of
the fondlsolder.
Mr. FIUME totally differs I from the hon. member wba
spoke last as to the necessity of a Sinking Fund. I.! e
regretted that such a system was ever adopted, and be we s
sure every country in-Europe would bate to regret the
ado?tion and contirna tee of it. It was too much to ob-
ject to the reduction of taxation under the fear of
tot toing able to raise a loan if circumstances re-
quirod
. Mr. BARING said a few words in explanation.
The lAIRD MAYOR supported the Resolutions. •
Mr. RICARDO said that he denied that any considers-
ble portion nt the dlstreas arose from the alteration of the
standard of the currency.
The Resolutions being then put,
Mr. II UM R asked why the sth of April was substituted
to. the sth of January. which was the uaual tissue for
closing the annual public accounts? and whether the
Clsancelt sr of the Exchequer. really meant to keep
up
that humbng —(hear, hear!)—of 2,200,0001. which was
said to be gained by the farming of the military pensions?
After getting an answer to these questions, he meant 'to
propose, as an aunm Intent to the Resolutions, " That it
was the opinion of the Committee that, in the present
distressed state of the country, it was inexpedient to ktep
any Sinking Fund.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERsaid
that, in reply to the lion. Gentlemaa's question as far as
related to the accounts, the making the sth of April in-
stead of the sth of January could cause no confusion.
The a mut accounts would, as usual, be made IT to the
6.11 January. As to the other question, he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) never denied the inutility of
the measure of last Session respecting the military and
naval Pensions, if the Government itself was under the
necessity of making the advances. But if the annuiiea
could he sold as it w e col trenplated, when the measure
was b ;fore the house, it was cletr that they would give a
relief of upwards of two millions a year, for several
years to suite.
Mr. RICARDO said, in his opinion, there was nn
difference to the public. Did not the Right Hon. Gentle-
'man see, that if t e suexeeded in selling the Annuities, he
wool.' increase the debt by o much as he at plesent in
app' armice reduced i
After a few words from Mr. GRENFELL and the CIIIX-
CELLOR of the Excesaume,
Mr. HUME snored his amendment.
Mr. TI ERN EY sad tl a. h;s own interest would in-
cline hint to preserve a Sinking Fond: but a redaction
of taxattuu to that amount would be more beneficial to
other., whose circumstances respired such a diminution
of their burdens After the passing of the present Bill,
no more taxes c 041,1 be reduced.
Mr. D. GILBERT explained.
Mr. HUSK I SSON sad that the improvement in the
Revenue e soul 1 enable them here:tier to make further
reduction in taxis.
Mr. lIGNIE than moved his amendment with an altera-
tion with an alteration suggested by Mr. Tierney to
iris
effect, That it was ti,c opinion of the Committee, ti at in the
present distressed side of the country, it was inexpedient to
maintain a S nlinsr Fold of three millions, and that the up-
!Mention of two millions of it to the reduction of taxation
would be a relief t., the present distresses.
The (louse then divided on Mr. Home's amendment. The
numbers were—
For the Amendment, 39—Against it, 110—Majority.

71.
The Resolutions then proposed by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer were then put and carried without a di-
vision. Alter the Resolutions had been cartied. the
house remmed.
AI..._PETER MOORE moved for leave to bring in a
Rill to amend the several Acts apinst the Combivati.ms
oTiourneyinei Nlanufactorers.
Mr. MAXWELL seconded the mo ion, and expressed
Ws satisfaction at the prospect of a measare which would
go to relieve the lahooring perr of the conntry.
Mr. H USK I SSON said he hoped if the lion. Gent. was
allowed to bring in the pro?osed Bill, he would let it
stand over for some time for considetalon.
Mr. Secretary PEEL wished the lion. tint. would ex-
plain the measure.
Mr. MOORE replied, that Iris object was to prJpo:e
such a in. saute as I Id I
S-1011_ _lave the effect of bringing
back a great numher of emigrant artisans from the
Continent, together a ith the machinery theyhad carried
ao av with them; and also to settle disputes between the
e npioyers and the employed.
Le.ve was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. W. COURTESAY moved for leave to bring in a

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