The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-02-18 00:00:00

AN.

Mr. ABERCROMBIE, its the present planning
situation of the Coonty of Nottingham, could have
wished, instead of opposing, to have supported the
measures of Administration; but, after the most
mature consideration, he felt it altogether impossible
to copal( in voting for thia Bill. Every body felt
1. the daeger'of a numerous body of men leagued to-
to the laws of the eoun-
‘tryget,he'arrildn wachieivehrt°PßvPehsiittiabele defeated both the civil
land the military power. This danger was the more
tett:ming from the connection between the county of
`Nottingham and other maeufacturing districts of the
country. But however strongly he, in common with
I others, felt this danger, he could not concur in the
present Bill, without violating a most impprtant
} principle in penal legislatnre—a principle which he
had already had the good fortune more than once to
join witha majority of the House in sanctioning.—
' The mildest character of the present Bill was, that
lit would be ineffectual. They had been told that the
riots had continued many months; that the Local
Police had been aided by the efforts of the Lon-
don Police ; that rewards had been offered for .
conviction; but that all the efforts of the 001
power, joined to the allurements of profit, and the
assistance of a military force, had been found com-
pletely ineffectual; and that with all this powerful
array, not a single convittion had taken place utt,.
der 'the existing law. Now if the House had been
told that any individuals had been convicted, and pit.
niched with, transportion, but diatfrom theslightpess
of the punishrelpt, . die motives of the unfortunate
persons had bias &nod stronger than the dread of
conviction, then he could conceive it might be proper
to call upon the House for measures of greater se-
verity. No such statement, however, had ever been
made'; and it was. merely the state of impunity
which they were called on to redress. The Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Ryder) proposed for
this purpose to make the offence capital. But how
could this measure operate on persons in the situa-
tion of the unfortunate persons in question, among '
whom there had already been found to prevail such
an uncommon degree of pnion, concert, and good I
faith, if he might be allo*ed the expression, to one
another, that not one of them had even yet been de-
tected. If impunity was an evil, the effect of this
severe penalty would only be to afford a greater se-
curity against any chance of punishment, because it
would afford the rioters an additional motive for ad-
hering closely together. The Honourable and
Learnd Gentleman then went into some illustrations
respecting the different probabilities ofcenviction
der pain of death and transportation, and concluded,
that the former merely decreased the chance of it.—
The Members for the county had not expressed any
warm approbation of the measure of the Right lion.
Gent. ; but they wished, they said, to agree to any-
measure which might have a chance of restoring tran-
quillity. But he would ask those Gentlemen, how
they could support a measure which would have the
direct contrary effect to what they wished? After
the body of information possessed by Ministers on
this subject; he thought the present Bill displayed a
great poverty of invention. Ile concluded with
some observations on the distressed state of the cows•
try, which he thought ought to 'take a deep
pression on the House, and induce them to reconsi-
der those measures which had plunged the country
into this dreadful situation. There were some Mints
arising from the decay of trade, which it was yet in
the power of the House to controul ; and they-might
be assured, that while the cause of the evil remained
in full force, all the remedies which they might apply
would be found as unavailing as the prescriptions of
a physician, directed merely to remove the outward
symptoms of a disease instead of communitating
health and vigour to the whole system.
Mr. OItD (we believe) voted for the Bill.
The Honourabl:. Captain HERBERT thought a
Committee ought to have been appointed to enquire
into the nature of the disturbances. He conceived
the punishment of death would only render disco-
very more difficult. It had been stated, that the
tenant had often connived a: the breaking of the
frames in the cottages. Could not an action be
brought against the t. ,ant f 4.1 the loss and if un-
able to pay might not imprisournont be resorted to ?
If this connivance was the root of the evil, why was
it not attempted to be struck a, ? if the law did not
admit of this, why was a Legislatiye provision to
that effect not, resorted to ?

, - -
Mr. jORN SMITH believed there was noexisting
law for the protection of lace-frames,,and that beau-
tiful manufacture lay, therefore, completely out of
the reach of the law. He supported the .present
measure, not because he conceived it free from ob-
jection, but because'something must be done, and
because if something was 'not speedily done, the mis-
ALA,' might soon be beyond their power to remedy.
—[lfear n-With respect to the causes of this mis-
sid.f., 42 awaked that this was not a favourable
moment for enquiring into them, because by inch an
enquiry at present, the evil would in all probability
be increased. On this subject, however, he was
ready to state his opinion, whenever a favourable
opportunity for it should occur. He would merely
state at that time, that the mother cause of all the
disturbances was the decay-of trade; but whatever
were the causes, whether just or unjust, the rioters
ought first of all to be put down:
The lion. Capt. HERBERT explained.
Mr. LOCKHART justified the policy of an in.
creased severity of punishment, as it might be hoped
that when the wives and children and other connec-
tions of the rioters should come to hear of the dread-
ful penalty to which these men were liable, they might
be induced and enabled to dissuade them from incur-
ring it. He said this measure was not an innovation
OD the law of the country—legally speaking, this of-
fence upproached the highest which were known • it
approached to the constructive levying of war. :He
instanced a case mentioned by Sir Matthew Itle,
where some persons were even indicted for brae lag
frames in London ; ab 4 11:10thCf empie 011 mos per•
sons who were eaecisted jn ths reign of 4106.'4:give
for destroying-meeting houses.i
•ntended, he
said, if the BM should' o into.* Ceiugittoesitpro.
Pose ' glut in 6 Val khi
IPOODT N. 46114441.

øl
a

a—
lonour.
had mistaken the
spoke,ser observed, that the
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hadlN N just sot b
Mr. WROTTESLEY expressed his firm convic-
ableM r.Member W.
thin that this Bill would rather than promote
retard,
the object in view, the punishment of offenders. He question before the Howe' which
begged to be informed why, since the _Bth of the the existing law were or were not effectual,
not I" hether
likelyffectual, but whet
'king, not one offender had been prosecuted under ther the new law proposed
the statute which passed in that year. Ile contended,throughout he had
fit ? and
argued on
on the authority of Mr. Justice Blackstone, that mises. On the nighttl • •
when
this hea erroneous pre.
until other modes of punishment were found ineffec. the Chancellor of the Exchequer hadwas introduced
d asserte t hat it
fuel, death ought never to be inflicted. had not been bro he fug orwaad earlier, the hope
28th Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY stated, that the real that the former statute of the 2
ill
of the King,
question to be considered was, whether the Bill be. would be found effectual, without
any new enact.
Are the House would afford any remedy to the evil meut, and that finding themselves disappointed, C
smplained of, which it was insisted it was necessary moment bad suggested, unwillingly, this me. ".
'lmmediately to correct. It would be necessary pre- In this statement the Right Honourable Ci "'He.
rintlenru
viously to examine what was the evil, and what was was contradicted by the feet, since tranquillityu
bad
'the remedy proposed. The evil was the destruction been Fettered, according to his own confession, fr.
lel individual property to a great extent by a cos ten days before this Bill came into the House.
cote-
. blnarion of persons who took effectual meatis to Sir A. PIGGOTT admitted, that if the abject of
prevent evidence being procured for their convie. this Aet *ad been merest), toextend the punishment,{
,
Lion. A.gainst this crime a law already exists,
_al _. transportation to the breakers of ifla f
e- ranies, he
though offenders are still found to put it at defiance. , should have given it his support, but it had an addi.
Undoubtedly it was a monstrous disgrace to the itionalebleot, in which he could by no means concur
country; but what prospect was there that the riots i TiZ• the.metking of both offences capital. lie can.
would be suppressed, by converting a useless terror 160114 the -House against 3 ielding to the geleiral in,
of transportation into a punishment by death? The dignatioe'espressed against the perpetrators of these
continuance of disturbances must arise from one of iheinebt crimes, by passing a measure which his Hon.
two causes, either, Ist, that the authors were able , a ' Friend (Sir S. Hominy), had shewn to
to destroy, or smother all testimony which would, CO . -futile. lie begged to know if it west,
4.
lead to their conviction ; or, secondly, that there' ._ _4, 4..1_2; t sieve tjaYetts 17814 the
I .. former statute
was a determination on the part of those to whom the l'ag„ Per proteededhpon in ...single instance ?
eutocutiren of the law was entrusted, not to put it in *if inberettne, until the old law were tried, how
foece. Making the offence capital would certainty t.kenitiait be .ascertained that the mow was neoessaryi
have the effect Of increasing both these causes, sines,
,I lie contended that, it would, be an idle .waste of time
there would be an additional inducement to destroy i for the House to- go into a Committee on a measure
evidence, and to neglect the law. The great evil to I which would ultimatelybe thrown out as wholly int.
be complained of was, that the law had been con. I deqnate to theobject in view.
yerted into a mere dead letter, that it had been made' Mr. Secretary RY.DER. did not wish to occupy the
only a lifeless scarecrow, from which custom bad re- '
, time of the House at any length, }{ter the ample oh-
moved even the terror that might originally have been servations which had fallen from him on a preceding
I felt on beholding it. If, indeed, the statute of the everting; but there were two or three of the argot
Ittith Gee. 111. had been duly enforced, and these , ments used by the Honourable Gentleman ppposite,te
iniquitious proceedings had been persevered in, in 1 which he should briefly advert. It had been proposed
I defiance of it, then indeed there might be some plausi-i that a clause, should be introduced to enact a similar
ble ground at least for the measure before the House. I punishment to what was already enacted by 'the
•a.Btls
As the Bill had only been delivered since the lof his present Majesty. And what would be the
meeting of the House, the Gentlemen wlo had effect of such a clausel—llow would it appear ?
spoken on the contrary side, might not have had time Whereas, it must say,by an Act of Parliament passed
to read it, or they would have seen that it•was in the 28th year of the Reign pf Geo, 111. the pu-
in no way calculated to remedy that which the 1 nishment of transportation was annexed to the offence
whole nation so loudly exclaimed against. One of breaking stocking frames, aud whereas that hey
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lockhart) had said, that I has been found hitherto ineffectual, in that parti.
the Nottingham rioters were guilty of a crime little I cuter case; it is now enacted as a further protection
of another branch of manufacture that the same
short of constructive treason. It was undoubtedly •
E
true that a general combination to break all the penalty be inflicted upon all persons destroying lace
frames might be so construed, and perhaps the late frames. Where would be the wisdom of sod A legis,
outrageous proceeding deserved a title little less 'se- lative provision?—He had been asked what chance
vere ,• but on examining the Bill itself, it would be there was, in making the offence capital, that its fret
found that it was not at all calculated to operate gooney would be diminished; bat he bad said re- •
against such conspirator.—The four objects to which peatedly, that be was net prepared to affirm, as a
the punishments were directed, related only to the, matter " certaiarYt that any d
immution would ensue.
wilful and malicious proceedings of individuals, and by 1 It was for thelegislatnre, however, to all the experi-
it a refractory apprentice who broke even an instru-ment ; and it was merely as an experiment, that the
ment belonging to his master's frame, would be liable present Bill had been introduced, as ag attempt to
to suffer capitally, and nothing was left to the mercy I invigorate the Executive Government. While ad-
vert{ ug to the exertions of that Executive Govern,
lof the prosecutor, since it was imperative upon him
to lay an information immediately before a Magis, milt, he would seize the opportunity of expressing
trate. Centime"' on the other side, no doubtthought his satiefaction at the testimony which had heel borne
that they were supporting a measure to secure the to its activity and zeal, by smell Oentleinew on the
, future tranquillity of Nottingham and the surround.' opposite side of the House; a testimony which he
' ing counties from these illegal combinations ; but on prized th- more, as coming from those who pro.
[ looking at the wording of the Bill they would find . fessed themselves to be spot disposed to epprove Of
themselves grievously disappointed, for the net, in-jany of the measures which himself or his colleagues
stead of being sp read wide eniauel" to secure all; I might employ. He would do justice, however, at
perhaps, would have recommended that offenders [
should not have been prosecuted, until it were I
i the same time, to the Magistrates of Notting, am,
could only catch a very few of ta offenders. He, '
who had discharged their &T in a most exemplary
manner. Nor bad the Magistrates of the County
clear that a combination existed, by several frames I been less zealous,. though not deriving the same sac-
having been previously broken, or unless three cess, because their vigilance was necessarily employ-
er four men in concert committed the act. In every ed upon a larger district. With regard to the present
i respect this measure was totally inadequate—it did Bill, the only proper vie* in which it could be consit
little credit to the Legislative skill of Ministers, and I dered by the house was, he apprehended, to regard
if passed would a disgrace to the proceedings' of '
be ce
it as a temporary remedy for an evil that must be put
the noose. He recommended, weeurn such a hasty I down some how or other. The question, indeed,
step were taken, that some examination of the ground , was one of vast importance: it was one which af-
' should be made, and that a Committee should be rap- , fected all the manufacturing interests of the cyan-
pointed to make enquiry into a subject on which the try ; and if the House should consent to the se-
House actually knew little or nothing. What Hon. I coed reading of the Bill, they would conscien,
Member, let his connections be what they might, ! tiously discharge their duty to that country and
could say that he knew the cause of these riots ;I to themselves. lle was asked, whether, when
whether they originated in malice on the part of the I passed, it would facilitate the detection of offend,
ers ? This he was not prepared to affirm ; and if,
workmen against their masters for ill-treatment, or I
from a determination to destroy machinery, which indeed, no offence could be made capital, till it was
roved that the Bill which was to declare such of-
lessened the proportion of manual labour ? whether I P
any, and what combinations had been entered into,
, fence capital would facilitate the detection of offen-
and what subscriptions had been raised to resist theiders, it would be impossible to reach many offenders
efforts of the Legislature ? These were questions of ,at all. The chance, in the present measure, was,
great importance, and to proceed without informs"-
;that men would be deterred from the commission of
'
t I ion upon them would be highly unbecoming the dig- a certain crime, when they saw that the Legislature
•
udy and wisdom of the House. had taken up the matter in a grave and solemn me-
iner. Whatever occasion there might be for such
. Mr. BATHURST said, that after the long con- : amendments and additional clams es might be pro.
tie= of these disgraceful scenes in the midland ,
posed by others (and he had Ire doubt the Bill was
;lifter the capitation- of thecommoft -este- I susceptible of imprnvenvent", be thought tat if its
my ; after the impatience universally expressed by I second reading was now rejected, consequences
, the country, that Ministers should bring forward I would ensue to the country, 'of a nature pot easily
some more efficient measure than the existing law ,to he anticipated.
[Hear, hear ! from the Ministerial Benches];" Colonel BASTARD *Mel to know how nay
and after the testimony on all sides borne to the I person could venture to affirm that Government had
unceasing exertions of the Executive Government, I
I not been supiae ? The insurrection had continual
it was a matter of greet regret to him to observe for four months, and nothing had been done O[N--
the manner in which this Bill had been received I tually to repress it. He could not, therefore, join
by many Honourable Gentlemen.—[Hear, hear! jin the praise of the Right lion. Gentleman, whose
from the Ministerial benches.] The true point to' duty it was to have suppressed these riots.
be decided was, whether the law, as it exists, is or Mr. 'WHITBREAD observed, that though be err-
is not an adequate prevention of the crime complained tainly was not in the habit of defending the Kitigfi
of ? If it were not, this measure was the fit resort Ministers, yet, from all he could collect on the tub-
to prevent tie. commission of the crime, which was jest, and that too from those who were best able (4
the main obteetriot 'if it put a stop to the offence, ratify his inquiries, he was convinced that everything
the enquiry whether It would make detection of it had been done by the Right Honourable Gearleinea
mere or less' dlikelt, was entirely put aside. The which could be done. Stilt, however, he should ro:u
Igrand principle of all criminal law was plena ad against the Bill being read a second time, bectuee lie
paws, meta* ad omnes, and if the execution of a objected to its principle ; and because he did net
*V would have the effect of deterring many, the oh- think it woo id produce those beneficial effects which
ject would be attained; and certainly the crime now were expected. The Right Honourable Gentleman
complained of, 'in point of enormity, could bear no said that riots took place notwithstanding•the Act
twould
comparison to bqrglary, or even to highway robbery. of 1788 ; peel be was convinced that the riots
The House, •it should be recollected, was not in this still take place, notwithstanding the presentre Act.—
, stage called upon to approve the Bill in its present He saw no occasion for hurrying the seas
Lhe
form--all that *as-uked.was that it should be read Case was not sp urgent, as there *ad been now Plif"
•- for some days ; but were it ever so
he • . not think this the proper measure to
Were he to bring in a Bill upon this occa-
shoeld rather enact, that is great difficulty
"nwni in bringing offenders to iustics. some.
risioos were nerressarj. lie inv....awe

~ ~.. ..


see a clitan .
, , for
.is ' fifes
Filer sh (ill; bi tlt • *se yOunsel ' imi• a second time, prepeistor'y to its commitment, w en. in the county for
. any mare outdid,. davits ?eight be added, or any
'urgent, he did not
hfr. 11#441111..Qf *eery, supports/10M,, 14 isecessary. aklissadema tad. - At present the 'meet it. Were he
ad instamsed theipsOnfteet which was by ad :th r. eAmes no *nth delay as siout he should rat!
similar Mode of %I#tg IR thy pny , y . ish‘.. w be peleilles4 by tebOsto A leaderminttlow aced b.sest tooesi in
. .
107 i ill Irelladf - Wm* Sekt cosaailitift . other ?Toyaima ~