The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-08-28 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN.

thetas the opinion of the Hots* bad been penned upon that
motion, he would not re-argue the various topics which it
embrace; and he Weald be content to leave that "'esti°,
untouched, though he could not but remark, that a com-
pliance with that motion would have been contrary
not only to the practice of that House, but contrary to
the nuiversal practice of other Courts, to whose practice
it' was admitted on all hands it would be proper for the
House to conform. To address himself to the subject
immediately before the House, he would observe that,
be was one of those who could not observe the very
great great disadvantage which would attend the Queen
y a continuance of the cross-examination. He was
ready to admit that a partial disadvantage would be
occasioned by it, but he contended that that disadvae-
tare was more than counterbalanced by the delay to
1 which the Queen would be entitled on the closing of
the Attorney General's case. This Was an advantage
which never attended ordinary cams and was more, much
more than an equivalent for the possible disad-
vantage. The, Queen by this delay wonhl be ea•
abled to make the most scrupulous inquiry into
the character of the witnesses.; and if upon that
inquiry she could shake their characters, it would be
competent for her to do so. She could likewise be en-
abled by this delay to controvert the facts deposed to by
these witnesses, If the facts could be controverted; and
he would repeat, that in every point of view, the Queen's
case would gain by the course now proposed. It was
net, however, to be understood, that by that course, her
Majesty's Counsel were to be positively excluded from
calling back any of the witnesses. If they should state
any special circumstances which should arise hereafter,
and consequently 'which were not at present within their
knowledge, the House most assuredly would give them
the advantage which should be asked by the Learned
Counsel. The House, in looking at the circumstances
which might be stated by those gentlemen, would be
guided by that liberality which ever governed its con-
duct. (Hear). Nay, he would go further, he would
advocate the adoption of a much greater latitude in this,
than that which attended ordinary cases. (Hear, hear.)
But this ought to be obtained upon special grounds to
be laid before the House, and should not be treated as a
tostter of course. The difficulty, as it appeared to
him, was this. In ordinary cases there was an exa-
mination in chief, a cross-examination, and a re-
examination. If the Counsel for the accused sought.to
put any question after the case was closed, it must be
put through the evidence and with the approbation of
the Judge. By analogy, then, if her Slajesty's Counsel
should seek to put any question after the closing of the
case, the should apply to the House uoder the spe-
cial circumstances which might induce them to de-
sire to put the question. But the course pointed out by
the Noble Lord (Erskine) was totally impracticable.
The cross-examination of Saturday ought to have gone
on, or it ought not. If it ought not to have gone on,
then Mr. Brougham had no right to go as far as Redid,
f
or it would be in their Lordships recollection that the
greater part of his examination went to impeach the
credit of the witness. She was asked as to what rnonev
she had received, by whom she had been examined,
when and where, and a variety of other questions, not
confined to asking who the witness was, but substan-
tially to affect her credit. If their Lordships had fallen
into any error, no people were more ready to retrace their
steps than their Lordships; but the question now herein
the House was not as to the bringing up or the whams
again but whether the Cannel should be allowed*, patch
tee eroerezautirtatioe altogether. Now it would be
to see in what situation their Lordships would be
I if the suggestion of the noble Lord (Erskine) were mkt
I ed. if the cross-examination were pat off, it w
conceived, establish a precedent that their Loogliflps
i themselves could not examine. It was evident that most
of the material circumstances bad arisen out of the en,
! initiation of their Lordships. The reason was obvious.
The CRUISER] on each side, examined to the points only,
which they intended and wished to establish; but the
1 Peers examined as Judges and endeavoured to bring the
ease to a fair and proper issue. Upon the Fro tad there-
fore, that a postponement of the cross-examination would
be unprecedented and mischievous in establishing a pre-
' cedent, his Lordship concluded by expressing his deter-
mination not to consent to the delay.
ILord ERSKINE explained,

The Marquis of LANIDOWItit observed, that being
one of those who wished to call on Counsel to state
what they had to urge at the bar, he was desirous of
explaining the impression of his mind on that
'abject. Counsel were called on the opinion
stated by many Noble Lords, that it was necessary to
lay down a rale of proceeding, and that it would be
satisfactory to the House to hear Counsel, who might
communicate instruction, many Noble Lords, being
like himself, unlearned upon the strict rules of law.
He kit, and should feel, throughout thp whole of this,
extraordinary proceediug, this the House ought to ap-
peal to Counsel for their views of the law. Tote
Noble Marquis adverted to the understanding aLlnilial
to by the Karl of Liverpool. He was ready to admit
that the subject of an adjourned crose-exansination
was not in contemplation when the subject was men-
tioned, but that question was open. He could not see
how it was in the power of the House to give Counsel
for the Queen any boon, which could be an equivalent
fur prompt cross-exassioatioa, after the examination in
chief, when the evidence for the bill made an Impres-
sion on the House and the Public. By the course the,
House had pursued, the Queen's Counsel were deprived
of that advantage. A doubt pressed strongly upon
his mind with respect to the propriety of rewind'sg
all that passed on Saturday. How /mold the House
get rid of the didiettity under which they were placed.
In the instance which occurred the other day, namely,
the examination of the witness from Trieste, the
Queen's Counsel had Do opportuity of knowing what
and whcr he was. Whether he had been living at the,
ion at Trieste, or whether he had sot. In that cue,
no cruss•examinatioti could fairly take place without

farther information was obtained. If so, was it open
to the Attorney-General to sum up to the Hesse ?
C.rtainly not. It then became neeessarf for the
House to consider, whether they wore not in sash a
sitnadia with respect to the witnesses to be called to
t►e bar, that Coined could lot be called ea to crew'
examine. Weald they say they could Wm* Ceased
the opportunity of levity ? la his tiniest shot
could not. Se far from mappesiag, with his Noble
Friend, that the House had as &Smithy to eaceuater,
I be thought they were pissed nadir sham
labia dillisulties MMus from
Ithe wllmeasas. If that list

sone of the dillieuitiss.

Lortiskips could sot, is justice
Attersey-Oesersi, mien
W t crestrezasisatiou.
The Seri a LuettaaseLs

that he MSS Whoa by NW
iarday, la laisarapt thiir tea.
Lori 2161.111104,111111141111 4
'COMA avoid MVO Imes bid

at slit
hea Ho expeeesed some regret, because they *ad
been rd. The decenniums established a fatal pre-
cedent wliteh might hereafter give counsel in any case
the means of delayinr the proceedings ter twisty-hat
hours. He thought to delay the eross-examinatios
upon a case made out after ail the evidence had been
heard in support of the Bill, was as mash as use
Queen's Cannel could require. It was more than an
eqnivalent for any
,inconvenience arising from the
want of a list of witnesses. A short delay in the
Courts below, was always considered the readiest way
to get up a sham defence. If the House allowed the
cross-examination to be delayed ten weeks, the Atter•
ney-lieoeral could not close his case.

The Lord Coartcatton.--" 1 feel it to be my dray
on this,occaslen, to remove as far as I can any 'mbar-
moment in the proceedings. It is not my iatention
to trouble your Lordships on the motion for a list of
witnesses upon which you came to a determination. It
ie enough for me to say, that having considered and
re-considered this question, I gave Hie vote It was my
Wooden duty to give. 1 am convinced a list of witnesses
would not hays removed one-fortieth part of the di&
eulties4his case." Parliament did not always govern
them strictly by the Mee of the Courts below, be
mast say the more strictly they were governed by those
rules in the present case, the safer they would go. The
Noble and Learned Lord was of opinion it would have
been better, had the House themselves put question to
the first witness, Majorci, when be was allowed to Wean el
up by die Queen's Counsel. The House would end.'
that when Paturso was examined, Counsel stated
that not being aware the witness was to be examined, be
begged to be allowed to put a question at a future tints.
He distinguished the ground on which he made the ap-
plication, namely, in case he received material informa-
tion. He (the Lord Chancellor) stated, that the House
would judge of the questions to be put when the appli-
cation was made. So the case stood in a correct point
of view, and upon another slay, when Majocri was al-
lowed to be examined, questions were pat by the House.
That was es. regular, but on Saturday, that Counsel
should postpone his cross-exituination, and the House
came to the question whether they should do what never
was done before.

Ile asked what situation would the House be in, if after
examination in chief, they postponed the cross-exainins-
lion. It was important that Counsel should not 'meditate
for days and weeks as to what he should say to a witeees.
On the other hand is was also important. Counsel *AI
have the fair opportunity of cross-examination him.
diately after examination in chief. It was clear am
Lords could not without examination, cross-examination,
and re-examination, call on the Attorney-General to sum
up. He did not mean to say, there were not difficulties
in this case, but there was no reason why they
should not grapple with those difficulties. They
could not remove the land-marks of justice, be-
cause they could not go comfortably to the question,
but they ought to proceed in a fair and regular
course to remove the inconvenience. If he gave his
vete it would be for allotving Counsel' to follow the
.ancient mode of proceeding. Counsel ought to be
called to cross-examination according to the student

forms of law, but if a special ease was made out for
the consideration of the House, it would dew's.* due
attention. It would be betterl to, acquit 10,000
persons thou break in upon any rule of law.

Onsv.said, he ha 4 not received a satisfactory

volutioo of any cleat objeatims to the proposition of
his Noble Friend. This was not a subject on which
the House should shut its eyes. They ought to grap-
ple with the diScolty. In meeting to pass the Bill
before them, they should take into consideration the
ditficulties which made it impossible to proceed with-
out violating the forms of proceeding.

The difficulties which existed must be removed, or I
the House would be led to injustice. The Noble Earl
called on the House to consider whether it was not
advisable to abstain from any further proceeding. on the
bill, rather than depart from the established principles
of law. Before they advanced, it was expedient to deter-
mine whether they were travelling on the right road.—
If be understood what bad passed, it was their Lord-
ships determination to enable the Queen's Counsel to
cross-examine, in such way, as if they bad known the
charge; and that such should be granted, as some com-
pensation for the vague and indefinite character of the
charge. If, however, that privilege was to be with.
drawn from the Queen's Counsel, they ought tab, beard
at site liar, as to the propriety of withdrawing such op
portunity. He had proposed, that a specification of the
charges should be given to the Counsel for her ll*wy,
for, if ever one rase were more important than aaetber=
if ever there were a case where it ought to be granted—
' thia was that case. So he bad argued, but the House
I thoteght otherwise; and he was not for setting up hie
private judrusent against the decision of their Lordships.
Pat, it was said. there was no precedent for the grant-
lag of a list of witnesses and a specification of the
, charges ; he thought far otherwise—all their journals
paved the contrary. Had the Queen been Pie.
sadad against for High Treason, or for Divonie,
Ai o would, however. have had these advastagos t awl
was it too much.-3ras it contrary to Justice to her ht
',situation equivalent in itilvantage to what tnitd4
hoe but, if prosecuted for High Treason, or
._
(far, hear As to precedent, the ease of the
Ir Norfolk bail been alluded to. Whet was a SOP
ii Divorce where there had been no previous roes/ars
ja the Ecclesiastical Court or elsewhere, a there di
'reification of the charges and the list of whimsies woof
tntod---(Cheers.)ese were granted as *lnhaling 1
demetage, of which the Dashes* had been deprived
SIR *ode of proceediVerwitimilar wivalent o
he bad opaten&d to have psalm! her t but
stood,
Imolai thought they had, he aa-
docstos4 osawatoi to ale** soartidati mei, of crowes-
awination mast whiff!) had been Owned. The Ursa
sat would proceed oilier the most assaifest and midair
disadvantage, If racked to pantie she cross-ex-
nation fully now.--filear.)—lf the novae were
illicalties, they bad brooght.. those dillculdss on
by the carts of proasediag oo which tirey
W diiiikalaed. Sat they might correct fie error ries
imp. The Attornereerteral ha* tread itS2.lll ;
lola Sand the trimming bs mated, sad tilt
NSW intim tbo libel, mill bo pea tiGitTigTlT
lilt hwit ea 04eard to 41. this, let tbe.Colipsol, fit
Ow Itopowbaro Ow daatias of creswexalidaatiaw ft nit:
ai they &OW. Osetr. lb, ode* ainst be=
character. of that Homo Wield !seekve a
reamer. -- -.)--The

latttrda diAet7d Item those of forint* die,* ;at ill
events, they ourizot to stiffer eo important sultiert to
rest on any un oding—they ought to have a clear
ruin laid dews for the geidattce of the enme-esamination.
Their first duty hers was to do justifier and let justice
be dose, whatever might be tie consequences. On Sa•
turday the character of the proceeding was not to es-
titad,itut to limit the rale for cross-examination. The
propriety of the question which had been pot; no :roe
could doubt. Ballthey were either to sae the siol..t.on
of the ruin laid down only half an hour hefotr, or ♦ elute
the rules of justice in preventing the putting of a qua.
don which be had a right to pot. As it was, he theme:lt
they bail nothing to tie but to terse to the role which
they bad before Paid down for the guidance of this ease.
(bear); to stiffer counsel to trowexamine, as far as they
could go, and to have the opportunity of retailing the
wienesees, sboold the counsel state, that on fresh infor-
mation they desired them to be se recalled! lle thought
it was the unanimous opinion of the House, 14,4 if
a new mode were' to be suggested, and which the
Counsel agaiyet the Hill should deem injurinort to
the interelte of. tbeie client they undoubtedly might
to be heard at the Bar on the subject.—(Hear,
hear, hear!) But be dlti not think plat the Conn-
eel ought to be called on to dictate to the High
Court of Parliament what coutse the Howie should
adopt; they might be asked whether they had any sug-
puma to make regarding the interest-of their client.
He should be sorry to decide ea any new course, without
first hearing all that Counsel could urge ou the subject.
Lord Livtaroot. admitted that it bad been agreed to
afford in equivalent advantage, for the advantage lost
by the mode of proceeding; and that eqnivaterit he con-
wilwred to be an adjournment of the Bill, after the whole
of she accusation Lail been preferred. But an adjourned
Min-examination Lad never been considered; he cer-
tainly never felt that there had been any understanding
to slimier any adjourned Cross-examination.—(Hear.)
Earl Uttar ex pl until—He thou h: that there was sr me
such understanding most clearly conic 'to; and tie
instanced what took place during the cross-examination
of Theodore diajttcci, when some interruption took
place, the Counsel was required to elect whether the
cross-examination should be pursued by them at that or
a subsequent period. Tlac Counsel elected to' go on
then.

The LORD Cn tIVCILLOR wished to know whether it
was understood that he should inform Counsel that the
eross•examinatioi were now to be pursued as far as-
knowledge would permit, reserving the right of recalling
should sew facts arise. He was also to enquire whether
Counsel had any reasons to urge against such rule.
Much desultory conversation took place between the
Chancellor, Lords. Lauderdale, Urenville, &ix. as to the
words of the role ; when
liCord ORRT said, he understood the question now was, •
whether the reserved right of cross-examining at a
future period, should new facts arise, should be token
Way.
Lord Livsaroot thought a case most be put to Coun-
sel. Ile understood crow-tzaminatiorts were to be put•
sued as far as possible; then to permit the recalling of
witnesses should new facts corns to the knowledge of
the Queen's Counsel.
Lord 011111 r said, this would justify the recalling of .
every witness, all being unknown to them.
(Left fa Debate.)

;41-
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Ogts
e• the reflood of a list of Ammeter of that Helm ha Ritually is 'One um,
is hot . boss iseinesiamed apialoa. A Noble LoviliVorilliesee" ~ .10 be W
amid have wiser. Their km"' the fief t° I"' , Wt!)—Whip mat
• venal be the effect. if. at et use ' ea%
Who 00 hk. Ileimet mg 66 Aea* Coma. dseir lbas eeillpes
. il. #*!freatili II! AMP tan OM Qmetei bid boa ' imm( —v
•• • - . •-, ' la • aindeet far the advaililp Willy the .ape of Neat
sail la iiiikedies, ebsetapi, ? If *sir Litte/Affilllorid free him, be no
hi ipeask id Csairmi ea gip holm the refluit4 bodkin siejesed their Laud. Vail
posesslip to passe, Wire obey am* War teem ill Velliati PI"
am do AU that esopsatadso with" bid WM .p..-
awes.. IMI *An Sit
1101111 Mt gip, if hood {/t tae absivad. that ditinilledl•P 4 =