The Statesman.
London, England, 1813-04-03 00:00:00

•sus.

IMPERIAL PARLMMEN7'.

EAST INDIA QUESTION
• The Marquis WELLESLEY
house with his intention, on W.._
bring forward a motion for the productiOn
papers, which „woe ld
.4W nellreehise
the Indian Question, and;,for. the
being referred to the Select Gociwittee.
Whole, he thought the most chavenieni
ceeding ; yet he-thought, at the same
presentation of the Resolutions upon
tem proposed by Government was
Should be accompanied by some observatil
I to explain their nature, some statement
Ito throw a light upon the subject. _
)
general •parliamentary discussion of the subject
should should have preceded any examination of evidence.
With respect to the resolutions, he observed,' there
was a degree of inconsistency upon the face of them.
The object set out with was not carried into execu-
tion by the subsequent Resolutions, but defects would
no doubt be produced of a very opposite nature.—
The Company would be precluded from the power
of discharging those functions either at home or
abroad, that which was, in the first instance, pro-
posed to allot to them. These were points which he
should hereafter have an opportunity of discussing.
The restrictions which were proposed to be laid on,
woull render that delusive. He did not mean inten-
tionally, that which was preferred to be given-by
the third proposition. There should be a general
preliminary discussion of the subject, were it for no
other purpose but to lay a foundation for the pro-
ceedings of the Committee.. It was in this view that
he proposed to,move for certain papers on Woke,-
day next, and when an opportunity would beagord-
ed to Noble Lords opposite of explaini Arndt parts
of the proposition as were in his mind *ply ob-
scure.
I The Earl of LIVERPOOL did not rise to offer
any observations on those topics to which the Noble
Marquis adverted, and in which he fully agreed with
him, as to their superlative national and commercial
importance. The Noble Earl then stated the ar-
rangement proposed and agreed to on a former even-
ing for the course of their Lordships' proceedings on
the business in question, and the grounds on which
that arrangement was formed. Ile thought it such as
would afford every Noble Lord an opportunity of
fully discussing the subject, and proposing any
Amendment he should think proper to any of the Re-
solutions; and le tve it in his power to bring forward
the consideration of the subject ia any other shape,
either antecedent to.the examination of the evidence,
or at the conclusion of it. For himself, .there was
no subject to the consideration of which he had given
more time : and he was satisfied in his own.mind as
to the opinion he had formed upon it. He was pre-
pared to defend the great outline, the general princi-
ple upon which the Resolutions were founded, when
• the proper opportunity should arrive.
The Marquis WELLESLEY, in explanation, ob-
served, it should be recollected that the evidence
, before the Committee could only be examined with
reference to the plan that was submitted to them, and
expressed his regret that some general introductory
discussion did not take place.

•
HOUSE OF LORDS, Ara tit. 2. •
A short sitting took pine before four o'clock, during which
some private business was disposed rf.
Litt d Grantham took the oaths and his scat.
'I heir Lordships then adjourned during plea tare, and at about
Ore the House reimined.
The oaths welr administered nt the bar to Warren Hastings.
Esq. in referedre to his iidended evidence before their Lord-
ss.ipit'' Select (' ~,,, metier, to whom the consideration of Ibe af-
fairs of India is referred.
Sir John Malcolm, and several other wimessei, were after-
wards tin orn to time ,:itsie elfect.
The E:rl of 1)1.R IIY presented a Petition from Warrington,
la I.:info-hire, whist the Renewal of the East India Com-
paey's 1 hnrser.
01.1. E presented a Petition from liamtaple, is the
c..uots of ilevot., signora, the Catholic Claim,.
preseuted one from certain Ship-huilders and
ler. of the Town rind Pint of Ilwwirh, rigninst the em-
.. meat and regigerin4 of vessels built in AM4 ; as British
ea' -, &c.
Ti.e-e documents being read, were severally ordered to lie on
the ruble.
• PETITIONS FOR PEACE.

Lord HOLLAND stated, that he had certain Peti-
tions to present on a subject of the highest import-
ance, and be trusted, that as he did not mean to
give any notice of a motion for taking these petitions
into conskleration, their Lordships would, in justice
to the petitioners, and the humble individual who
addressed them, give him leave to make a few ob.
servatitins. The principle upon which their Lord-
slips acted in .regard to presenting petitions, he con-
ceived to be this: •that any of their Lordships would,
as i Peer of Parliament, present any petition that
wa- respectful in its langutn4e, and correct in form,
howe%er much he might differ in opinion from the
petitioners. Ile would, therefore, withput hesita-
tion, have brought forward these petitions, though
the sentiments contained in them had been contrary
to his own. This, however, was not the case in
the present instance. He most fully and entirely
Concurred with the petitioners, in thinking that the
restroation of the blessings of peace was, after the
sacri tires that had been already made, peculiarly de-
sirable at the present moment ; and that to appear-
ance, at least, there had been opportunities for en-
tering into negotiation for the accomplishment of
that object. [ut still these might be only appear-
ances, and therefore he was not prepared to say that
his Majesty's Government had been actually guilty
of culpable negligence in not taking advantage of
the proper opportunities for entering into negotia.
tion. These p.>:itions proceeded solely from the
spontaneous impulse of the petitioners the%lseltes.-7
No arts had been used,—no suggestions had been
tcatie to procure them. Ile had even ventorc,.
to dis,made them from offering them at all to i ar-
Lament ; because, though he agreed with them '
in the. opinions expressed in their petitions, he
was doubtful whether the presenting them in Par.
littment, would be the best means of promoting their
own object. The reasons he gave for his doubts
):ad been considered by the Petitioners ; and after
mature deliberation, they' had again requested
him to present them. This was highly flattering to
him ; because it proved, at least, their conviction of
his shiterity in the professions he had made of his '
concurrence in their sentiments and object. Ile now,
then, presented these petitions; and had to state,
that the language was not only respectful, but highly
tensible andsproper.* The petitioners, though they
urged the great sacrifices which had already been
made, Stated, at the same time, that they were per-
fectly willing to make still greater sacrifices, if the
pretensions of the enemy should be such as this
covntry could not, in consistency with its honour
Bed interest, accede to : but for the reason which he
had already mentioned, he did not feel it his duty to
fix a day for moving the taking of these Petitions into
c nisideration. 1:e must, however, cautiously guard
ouinst carrying this principle of abstaining from Par-
liamentary discussion on the question, so- far as to
maintain that at no time, and under no circum-
siances, would it be proper to make petitions for
peace the subject of Parliamentary discussion. If
lie were to maintain that principle, he would be cast-
ing a severe reflection upon his own conduct, and
upon the memory of ot:e dearer to him than even his
own conduct. If, indeed, he could believe that the
Ministers entertained Ruch mad and extravagant no-
tions*as that of completely crushing the great Prince
at the head of the French Government,--if he could
believe that they had in any degree stv.ctioned a certain
paper.and proclamation—their jaorilships would un-
derstand what he meant when he alluded to it (pro-
babiy the Proclamation of Louis X VI [I.), if he could
believe that they were resolved to make no peace,
except on the ground of wresting from the French
the fruits of twenty years' exertion,—then, indeed,
he should say, that it was time to bring the subject
forward in Parliament. Not having, however; any
particular reason to believe, that the Ministers did
insist upon any such extravagant pretensions, he did
not think it proper to carry the Matter farther at
present. There was no Frenchman but ought to shed
the last drop of his blood rather than accede to any
such pretensions; and there was no Englishman that
ought to shed any blood in supporting them. He
should have dismissed the subject with this observa-
tion, were it not that there was one point upon which
he was
-anxious to give some explanation. In a dis-
c•:ssion which had taken !dace relative to the affairs
of the Peninsula, the opinion which he had given
had been very much misunderstood ; and that too,
in quarters where he was particularly desirous not to
be misunderstood. Ile had been at all times of opi-
ni:et that the independence of Spain ought to be sup-
ported under that Government which they them-
s,..!‘es chose—namely, that of Ferdinand VII. and
their own National Cortes. Having bees; always of
that opinion before, he saw nothing in the present
circumstances of the Continent to make him change'
it. He desired, therefore, that it might be under-
stow', that he was decidedly favourable to the policy
staining the independence of Spain in the
he had stated—of maintaining it by every
lertion that could possibly be made, if ne-
-while he thought that if it could be eifect-
;ocietion, it would be proper to make some
for that purpose. If this was the course
had always thought to be recommended by
licy, the case was much stronger when the
:he nation was engaged. He concluded by
• several Petitions from different places in
:les of Derby and Leicester in favour of
and nine Petitions to the same effect from the
neighbourhood of Nottingham ; which
on the table.

The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE was of
opinion much of what had fallen from the Noble
Marquis arose from his misconception of the pro-
posed arrangement. Otte great object vas the saving
of time, as it may be too late in the Session to begin
the investigation on.the part of that House, when
the Resolutions should regularly be sent up by the
other House. In this view, they were communicated
at nearly the same time ; not for the purpose, of de-
ciding upon them, but with a view of examining evi-
dence upon points materially connected with them,
and the better preparing their Lordships for the con-
sideration of the general subject.
The Marquis WELLESLEY then rose to
bring forward a Petition, which it was his wish
should, as the others, be referred to the Select Com-
mittee. It related to the subject of vesels built in
Asia, respecting which such a general alarm seemed
to prevail in this country. His Lordship then de-
scented upon various utilities which he desesibed as
resulting to British interests in India frews the em-
ployment of such vessels. They contributed greatly
to the success of our arms in different parts of the
East ; to the conquest of Tippoo Sunsuit, in My-
sore, and to the success, of the expedition against
Egypt. With a reference to our naval strength too,
he deemed them of great importance. The wish of
the Petitioners was, that they should be placed in
the situation in which they had hitherto been, or
that they should understand distinctly, now, what
was meant to be done respecting them. After a few
farther observations on the importance of this de-
scription of vessels, his Lordship presented the Peti-
tion, which seemed to be from certain Merchants of
the Port of London, for themselves, and in behalf
of others connected. with them in India, owners of
ships built in that,country, praying that.their_inte-
rest migbt.be duly attended to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the
Petition could be received only as that of those who'
signed its and the document as such, was received
and referred to their Lordships' Select Committee.

Lord GRENVILLE addressed the House at mime
length upon the subject. He agreed with his Noble
Friend in his sentiments respecting the subject of the
Petition just presented, as well as in what he had
thrown out in reference to the Resolutions upon
which the systeni proposed by Ministers was to be
founded.. lle had since read and considered these Re-
solutions in detail ; and some parts of them, cm-
iared with others. lle must say he felt a difficulty
in understanding how the.objects professed in some,
were to be effectuated by the others. With him too,
he now thought they should have been preceded by
some general discussion, in which Ministers should
state at least the outlines of the general reasoning
upon'which they rested their proposed system. The
general admission as to the Import and Export
Trade to India, was so limited by what it was pro-
posed to retain, that the greatest hazard was run of
the result being highly injurious to the commercial
interests of those,. whom the new system professed
to benefit. lie had uniformly been of opinion, that
the Trade to India should be thrown more and more
open to the commercial capital and enterprise of this
country, and with respec t to the more'immediate
subject of the Petition presented by his Noble
Friend, he thought the proposers of the plan should

question, he to
put to Ms Majesty's Miiisters, he had ne wish that
any detail of what passed upon the subject should
be communicated. Neither had he an idea of the
British Government being the cause of those miseries
and mortalities, which In no small degree prevailed
with respect to the unfortunate persons to whom
he alluded, as was charged upon them in certain
quarters. What he wished to be informed from au.
thority was, whether any communication on the sub-
ject of Prisohers of War had recently taken place
between his Majesty's Government and that of
France ? Whether the proposition made by the
French Government was such as to be deemed inad-
missible, or whether, if such were judged admissible
on the part of this country, any proposition was
founded open it? And he had particularly to refer
to a report that seemed generally to prevail, that the
ground of rejecting .the proposition was—the present
rArcumstaucesgof Euro*. This he wished to be
formed of ; or whet's* the .proposition was rejected
upon other grounds? •e•
The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt with the Noble
Marquis, that the question was one which equally
Involved considerations of humanity and justice; and
he felt himself called upon to declare, that his Ma-
jesty's Government then and ever were ready to ne-
gociate with that of France for an. Exchange of Pri-
soners upon fair and equitable terms. It was un-
doubtedly unfortunate that all the efforts made upon i
thepart of the former for that object failed of sue-
cesL Upon the last occasion, when an attempt was
made, his Majesty's Government expressed their
candid readiness to enter into the negociation upon
those grounds and principles upon which they pro-
ceded on former occasions of the kind, when the
failure took place in consequence of the propositions
made by the French Government being such as could
not, consistently with the honour or the interests of
the; country, be acceded to. Ile had no difficulty
in stating, that a disposition had been made to renew
the negociation, and an intimation of that nature
Witt made : on this it was distinctly declared that his
Majesty's Government were disposed to negociate
upon the principle on'which the last negociation was
conducted, and he was sorry to say, the proposal
• was received on the part of the enemy, in such a way
as to leave little hope of a successful issue taking
place. And he must say, that the Noble Marquis
did his Majesty's Government no more than strict
justice, when he declined crediting the report of the
negociation being discontinbed on account of the
actual circumstances of Europe. Nothing whatever
• on the occasion turned upon that ground, and he
again repeated, tho British Government were c!)r-
dially disposed at any time to renew the negotiation
in question upon fair and equitable terms; and to
come to any conclusion upon the point at all con-
sistent with the honour and the interests of the
country.
Some further discussion upon this topic took place,
in which' Lords Grenville, Grey, and Holland, made
some observations, and the Noble Earl (Liverpool)
spoke in explanation ; but nothing materially dif.
ferent elicited from what he had advanced in the first
, instance.

___ pray. :be Petitioners. 11. should
more that it be brought up. An Honourable Gen.
tleman had given notice of i motion on .he
ilea of peace. When that motion was made, he had
,no doubt this Pe(idea would be taken into
deration.

Thy Petition was brought up and read, and ordered
to
Mr. wi
lieOnhjrrlia
e table.
EAD, in rising to present a Pot;.
tion for the same purpose, from a great number of
tt
ihoeni no hf a
tbhi
et a
lin tos
the moderate and 'temperate
House also
of
Leeds,
i e
dtgo' to lee.
language in which it was expressed.. He could also
say, that the conduct of the greater part of the
principal sufferers by this long and dismally pro.
tracted war was peaceable in the extreme. The lan-
guage of the Petitioners would explain their senti-
ments more . fully than he could do : he therefore
wished the Petition to he read. It having heels read
accedingly, he said, that it was well known, r!,:tt
oft* -daring the continuance of this war be oad
coact it to be his duty either to support or to pro-,
pose Motions of a nature similar to the prayer of.
those Petitions. lie carried • his ideas on this sub.
ject probably farther than most of the Members of
that House ; but still he aver had called upon 'he
House to interfere at all upon the sobject, usi ess
he conceived Ministers to be failing its their duty
of taking.advantage of the most favourable periods
for obtainiik peace. He was perfectly aware, that
if ever a period should arrive, when tote &lieu t'es
which Ministers would have to impede them in such
a negotiation would be the grea'o.t, it would be at a
period when the table of the licuse should be crowd..
ed with Petitions like the present. if ever then, he
wished' to induce the House to take any step to-
wards this great object, it was before they should he
borne down by the irresistible power of Petitions of
'this sort from all parts of the country. At ail early
period of this Session, when he moved an Amend-
ment to the Address, and gave the notice :ha was
alluded' to, he had named no :particular time for
bringing on that motion, and had since postponed it
indefinitely. Events had lately !;appened in the
North of Europe. which had- cousidorablv improved
our situation and hopes, and they were gilt coett .u-
-ing to improve.' Such an improvement . outd not
have been anticipated by any one a few montos ago ;
but still those events appeared to throw fresh ditli.
culties in the way of an immediate negociation fur
peace. He therefore thought it right to oemv • i:ie
Executive Government entirely unfettered up.
subject ; nor would he bring any motion ft. u d
in the Houses unless he absolutely despaired of t.s. rct
being any desire on theirpart to avail themselves of
any fair opportunity which might offer, or unless he
thought they now entertained some of those chime.
rical hopes and vie ws which had formerly been en-
tertained by other Ministers. If he thought. for
example, that Ministers save any couutenance or
were consenting to the late proclamation p•lblished
under the signature of La pis XVIII. then he should
think it necessary to bring forwa) 1 a motion, not
directly for peace, but for an Address to remove
those Ministers who showed no ..lis;msition to pro.
cure for the country a reasonable. Until, i.ow.
ever, he should have reason to suppose his Ma.
jesty's,Ministers were disinclined to peace on fair
and reasonable terms, he should defer his motion in..
definitely. Trusting alway that Ministers had this
I object in view, he should be glad that the Noble Lord
(Lord Castlereagh) would give a more distinct
answer respecting the concurrence of Ministers to
that proclamation of Louis the XVIIIth ; for
although he had said that Ministers knew nothing
I of It, yet he was informed that those under them
had allorded those facilities which Government
could do to get it into circulation on the Continent.
If the Noble Lord chose to remain silent, his silence
would be considered ominous; but if he were to dis-
' claim it distinctly, that would indeed be highly sa-
tifactory.
Lord CASTLEREAGH allowed, that the lion.

On the motion of the Earl of HARROWBY, and
after a few words from his Lordship on the occasion
—the consideration of the Report of the Stipendiary
Curates' Bill, was adjourned till Monday.

STEALING IN SHOPS.
Lord HOLLAND moved the second reading of
the Bill for repealing the Act, making it a capital
offence to steal from shops, &c. to the amount of
five shillings.
A debate of considerable length ensued; in which
Lords Holland, Grenville, and Lansdowne support-
ed the Bill ; and Lords Sidmouthl and Ellenborough
opposed it.
A division took place, when the Bill was 'lost, by
26 votes against 15.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The Committee for the Cardigln Election reported, that John I, Member had commented, in a constitutional manner,
Ward,.Esq. was duly elected, and that the petition was nut
on those Petitions; and that he was right in •ayings
salmis or vexatious.
PETITIONS FOR PEACE. that the Executive Government should he left unfet-
LortioLEVESON GOWER presented a Petition i tered upon that subject. Whenever he should think
from the Master Manufacturers and others con• proper to bring forward his motions, then it would
fleeted with the Staffordshire Potteries, in favour of be bis duty to state his sentiments. At present he
Peace. The fresent • Vetitkmers, though among had only to reply to the last question of the Ron.
those who had suffered most from the war, had not Gentleman, as to the participation of Government
been seduced by the example of others into any acts in that Proclamation. With respect to the policy of
of violence. 'I hey had borne the evils brought upon that measure, his Majesty's Government were not at
them with exemplary patience, and they now ap- , all committed, as they were no parties to it. They
preached that House with the greatest decorum, to did not suppose, however, that the circumstance of
state their grievances. in a constitutional manner, an asylum being witted in this country to the it-
end to ask for that which they conceived would af-', fortunate Royal Family of France, 'should at all
ford them relief. Ile concurred with them in think- fetter them, so as to prevent their exercising their
ing peace very desirable, if a peace could be made own judgment with respect to what was proper for
consistent with the honour of the country, and con- -them to do for their own interests and those who had
sistent with good faith to our Allies. lie concurred• been theii former subjects. If, from having a resi-
with them in thinking the late glorious events on dence in this country, they were to be considered
the Continent afforded grounds for entertaining a fettered, this would be changing their asylum into a
more sanguine hope that such a peace might now be prison, which would be most disgraceful attd discre-
concluded than could reasonably .be entertained for ditable to this country. As to the poiley of the
many years past. If the energies of those countries measure, he should pronounce no opinion at all
which were now .disposed to rise in opposition to about it, but merely say, that neither he nor the
the tyranny of Bonaparte, were properly called Government were in any degree parties to it. It
forth—if the resources of those countries were pro- was an act of State belonging to the, parties who
perly used—if the Allies abstained from directing I issued the Proclamation, anal not to his Majesty's
their views. to selfish and partial aggrandizement,.'Government.
evincing moderation in success, he thought when it Mr. STEPHEN rose to state, that he did not un-
was seen they were guided by such feelings, it derstand the Noble Lord (Gower) to declare, as re-
might he expected the elect of their conduct, even ; presented by Mr. Whitbread, that this was a favour-
on that country, which, from national pride, might I able opportunity for makieg peace, but that late oc-
be most -disposed to support Bonaparte, would be currences had rendered such an event more probable.
such as to induce a sincere wish for, peace. While he As to the proclamation of Louis XVIII. he entirely
concurred with the Petitioners in anxiously desiring i approved of it, and thought that the present situation
the restoration of peace, he wished to state, that he of affairs on the Continent only rendered peace more
did not agree with them that it would be expedient probable, uit pron.l4ed the restoration of the legi-
for that House to take the subject into considera- timate Monarch to the Throne of France, and
(ion. Such a step, he feared) Redd rather retard I threatened the destruction of the abominable military

►-~

stood, that
of maintaii
njaniter he
warlike exi
cev,ary,—,
eil by user
s::clifices A
..I.ich he li
sound poll
faith of th
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the Counti
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t're laid c

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than.— ----accelere te that,i wblti 4.was their ohjeet to Re.
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I.llllg, 26. '1". AN.
...... . . . . -
complish. Ile
.did not say that at no poriA, and'
. • •
tON. .
V acqnts44 ,the :of Xgreat, m !sty; and united Empire.
Tednesday next, to The Marq f WELLESLEY then presentadi under no circumstances, it would he proper for tha
t•
:oductien of ceryiin two or Orm' ns, which being shortly reacl,'' Rouse to interfere and tootreircitsfoardiriiiciteancv, \lPinisto 5
ottiurni:te:eee.tnhde duty of the 1i0u.,! to in.
the ...roll;
litte to the state of seemed tea! the Packers ana certain other de. on the, subjeciitegtwoi
rs
e purpose'of their sctiOtloge . -Ides deployed by the East India pursued measures of selfish. ngsmndizethent, forget.
nee. This,' upon the ColePati7. Iriklige were, as the former, ordered to •hfueltthlioatugthhte of all war is peace, them
!silent mode of pro-. be referred fis the Select camtnittee. .
lame tine, that the , iiittsomultroir WAIL ' • . . ~terfere by addressing the Prince Regent, and _ pra •
I- The Ma 18 or L
ISDorne-Q%airpNpl
consequence,Eicittiinons,which he ever, he hcehhaandgenootf hireinniasbtelerchto (1)ele attli7i'rinirZt;nshit%4).ll:
pon which the sy
ras to be founded,. more imnlately, .of
bservations tending said had been mode to him, rose to call the attention to do 'va - ...ry:thing:in their power to pr 4 ,re a safe
:ements with a view of their Lordships
to this aubject. With respect to and honourable peace, and therefore lie could not
pct.
He thought a the question, which hc.. felt himself .called %Ron to Concur in the prayer of the Petitioners. Its th...ti
.. .._ . ___