The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-07-11 00:00:00

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on the several witnesses whose testimony was cassi-1
deed indispensable. Those witnesses were now in
attendance, but it appeared that the parties who had
summoned them did not attach so mnrh importance to
their evidence as they at first stated, for they evinced
no disposition to have them 'itemised. His persua-
sion, therefore, was, that such bring the case, it
would be a severe measure to punish those on the op-
posite side in this affair.
be SPEAWralled the Hon. Member to order, and
asked if be ever knew a case where the authority of
the Speaker's warrant was questioned, merely on se-
coma of the nature of the evidenre to be produced in
the tarsi'. at Issue Such • principle would tend MI
overturn the %hole of the Statute Law of the land, and
he could nut help again stating, that the Hon. Mem-
ber was quite out of order in advancing it.
Taxstvsox said a few words nearly to the same
import as bi.fore, and was" again reminded from the
Chair of being out of order.
A short conversation then took plasm on the subject
between Mr. WYNN, Colonel Wools, Mr. CALCRAIT,
Mr. lioll.111:11N, Mr. W:toTT11111111, and Sir J. MACK-
INTOSH, after which the original question was carried
without a division; and the Speaker was ordered to
issue his warrant forthwith for the committal of Sir 1
William Minutes to Newgate.
Mr. LITTLITON presented a petition from the mas-
ter manufacturers of Staffordshire, praying that the
duties on china and earthenware exported to Ireland
should be discontinued. 'I he Hon. Member, at the
same time, gave notice, that lie should move that the
words " China and Earthenware" be erased from
the Bill pending on the siihject.
Sir J. Ikawroar said a few words, and the petition
was ordered to lie on the table.

SEA OFFENCES BILL—Sir W. SCOTT moved
the Order of the Day for the second reading of the
Sea Offences Bill.

Sir J. Macilwrosu suggested to the Hon. and
Learned Metnber the propriety of allowing more time
for deliberatii,n on the subject. lie therefore wished
that the Bill should be printed, and in the hands of
Members, before the second reading took place. He
understood the object of the Hill was to extend to of-
fences committed on the sea, the punishment awarded
to offences on land.

Sir W. Scots disclaimed and• intention to precipi-
tate the Bill, anti thought th-t sufficient time had been
allowed to put the House in possession of its merits.
Sir Isaac Counts thought this one of the most ne-
cessary and important -measures that could be pro-
posed to the deliberation of the Rouse.
Sir J. Macutstrosn concurred with the Hon. Mem-
ber, that this was a necessary measure, bat certainly
not one of the most necessary or important that could
be snbmitted to the House.
The Bill was then reed a second• time, and
to be committed ern Wednesday.

Sir G. MIA. moved the Order of the Day for the
second reading of the Irish Paupers' Removal Bill.
Mr. %V. Psursata. adverted to the hardships to which
Irish paupers were exposed on their removal 'from
England. He said, a doubt existed whether the chil-
dren of Irish poor were liable to be removed, though
some eminent Counsel had given an opinion that they
were. He thought it might he expedient for the
Irish Government to grant small awns of money to-
wards providing for those paupers on their retnrn to
their own country, as they were left entirely destitute,
and had no parochial relief to resort to.
Sir Joins Nswroar thought that the principle of
the Bill would operate to the prejudice of the inhabit-
ants of those districts where the paupers s►ould land.
The Bill proposed that they should disembark at four
different ports, and the people in the vicinity of these
ports were to be burdened with a temporary provisioe
for them in the first instance—while the paupers, find-
lag tht-aiselves so well off, would be induced to fix a
permanent residence in the neighbourhood, and thereby
add to the grievance.
Sir JOSZPN Yoe'', said, he should have no objec-
tion to support the Bill, if it contained any clause se
keep the Irish paupers at home whim they got there.
He hoped the Hon. Member bad made some provision
for this. He assured the Hon. Member that this would
be a most desirable object, as he was frequently an-
noyed in the streets by the importunidn of persons
whom he knew, from their brogue, to be Irish paw
pers.—(A laugh.)
Mr. Hainaut, supported the Bill, and entered into
a statement to show the heavy burdens which Irish
paupen occasioned to the metropolitan parishes.
Mr. G. ORAN? said a few words; and, the Bill hay-
ing been read a second time, the Report was ordered
to be received on Wednesday next.
OPHTHALMIA.--Mr. Baorrres moved for a Re-
turn of the Number of Soldiers who are now-receiving
Pensions on account of Blindness. The Hon. (heti.-
Man. in introducing his motion, took tweasioteet ad-
vert to the great services rendered by the Ophthalmic
Institution.
Sir T. Act AHD thought it would be proper to ascer-
tain whether the eases were curable or not before pen-
sions for blindness were granted. It would be wrong
that a person young sad vigorous should receive a
pension after be had been restored to his sight, in a
ease which was considered incurable.

Mr. BIPINIT spoke briefly in explasation.
Lord PaLstnarron said, that dna are had been
taken in awarding pensions, that the übjeets should be
such as were entitled to them.
Sir hotline Yuan did not consider Sir W. Adams
entitled to any greater praise for successful prattle, in
cases of Opthaintia, than any ordinary surgeon. He
bad selected only inch cases as be thought• alight
easily be cored.
Mr. BAIKAM vindicated the mods of troatment
adopted by Sir W. Adants.—Metion agreed to.
Mr. RICARDO moved for an &result of the W* bee
of Clalions of Foreign Wine and Spirits imported freer
the 6th of July, 1819, to the fth of Julys 111110.
distinguishing the ansosat of doles and iinisUelts.—
Ordered.
BAST INDIA VOLUNTEERS' BILL 3h. Can.
mute moved the Order of the Lay for receiving the

.;

tore, and tow Isere-an senonot. -They bid now under
lock and key property ausenoting to at least 12 or
13,000,000/. They bad property of their own to the
value of 8,000,0001. and that belonglug to Individuals
could not be estimated at lees then from 4,000,000/.
to 5,000,000/. They had, besides, a large depot of
not less than VOW stand of arms, which it would
he obviously 'titulary to secure in the event of any
disturbance in the metropolis.
Mr. Bennet, opposed the Bill, on the ground that
the force called fur was of an unconstitutional nature.
Au Hon. Mimosa, whose name we could not learn,
supported the Bill.
The Report was then received, and the Bill was or-
dered to he read a third time to-morrow.
LIMERICK ELECTION—Mr. DALY moved, that
Mr. Henry D'Esterre be called to the Bar, in order to
be discharged out of custody.
Sir J•ataa lIACIIINTOKIII rose to express his regret
that an individual who held so respectable a ,•t•tio■
in life as the unfortunate gentleman who was the sub-
ject of this motion, should have been guilty of an of-
fence so truly degrading in its nature, and so abhorrent
from every well-regulated mind, as prevarication upon
oath—•{Hear, hear!)--He did not wish, however, to
press too severely upon that unhappy individual, though
his decided opinion was, that he ought no longer to
be considered worthy of retaining the office he filled,
and ought at the same time to be degraded front
that honour.►ble professi,n, whi.•b his conduct had dis-
graced.
A MEIIFIER, whose natio. we were not able to ascer-
tain, said, that the whole Corporation of Limerick was
in a most scandalous state of corruption, and that the
first step towards reforming it ought to be the removal
of Mr. D'Esterre :rum his

Mr. DALY disclaimed any wish to shield Mr. D'Es-
terre from punishment. Ihe office he held was an
elective one, and the person was chosen annually. He
did not think it likely that the lewd Ligutenant, whose
approbation was necessary on the occasion, nould
sanction the election of Mr. E'Esterre after what had
occurred.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH hail no other olv;ect than that
the House should receive some assurances that Mr.
D'Esterre should not be retained in his situation. It
would be an outrage upon justice, were such an indi-
vidual suffered to remain in the place he filled.
Mr. iirt•Ne intimatetl, that the subject would lint
taken into serious consideration by the Irish (lover*.
went, and he thought he might promise that the Loft
Lieutenant would not agree to the re-election of thil
individual in question, after so decided an expression
of the feeling of the House.
Sir J•MAII M•cutviositt.—fily object is perfectly
answered.
Mr. IlAveatt wished the motion postponed, in order I who
eosseertalwithether Mt. D'Esterre might not be die ea,
posed to resits in the interval between this and the of
ensuing elottion. a use,
After a few words from Lord C•wri.x tester and Sir odd
1. GRAHAM, Mr. D'Esterre was galled to the Bar, and tale,
the SPEASKR havitig, in the usual form, addressed Mm Member
by name, proceeded to deliver his reprimand, which the '
was nearly to the following effect :—By the Report of upon
a Select Committee, appointed to try the merits of a ; stained
petition, complaining of an endue election and ratans I because
for the city of Limerick, he (D'Esterre) bad been proved I was
guilty of gross prerarication upon oath it that else- where ,
tion, for which offence he bad been committed to his Ma- I judicial
I Joey's gaol of Newgate, by an order of the House. His I character•of
petition praying for a release from custody had been re- picion,
eeived by the House, and they had in consequence or- the -
tiered him to be brought to their Bar to be reprimand-' most
ed and discharged. If it had been his dirty to repel- I not
nand one among the lower ranks of life, who perhaps any legal
might not be aware of 'the moral obligation of an obvious '
oath r one who was half educated or half ignorant, den,
the impression upon Ms feelings, which such an of- Commil
knee as gross prevarication upon oath, an offence that' fro.-
differed more in a legal than in a moral sense from
gross perjury, would be infinitely less severe than at
present. But when, upon such an occasion, it became
his duty to eddies. a person of liberal attainment, who
was a member of an honourable ptofession, and who
held a high official situation, it was impossible for '
to expatiate in terms such as it deserved on the
famy of the crime committed by that individual, 801
on the enormity of his caudate. But the mind of tai
person whom he now addressed, better than any watt
which he (the Speaker) could make use of, would re-
proach him for having disregarded the sacred oblige-
dons which truth and justice imposed. He had now
only to communicate to him the Order of the House,
that he be discharged from custody on payment of his
fees* and he was therefore discharged aeeordingly.
Mr. D'Esterre thee withdrew from the Bar.
Tbt Cwatrescsma of the Biennoma moved the
Order of the Day for the second reading of the Sale'
of Spirits Bill.
Mr. MAMMAS, opposed the motion, on the grailoia
that the Standing Ordet recently established HMO
hip Bills for the Rigriatioa of Tradchad last heel IS.'
lota with. a. • I
Mr. 11. SNIT* objected to the Bill, issilbg (aka-
lased to destroy the existing trade.
Lord CSSTIAINIAGII and Sir JOHN NZWPONT argued
Nat the Bill did mot some within the operation of the
Order.
/be Seeks ea spoke briefly oa the Same *inject, and
.the bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
astamitted to-morrow.

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On the motion of Lend PALIIIIIIIIIOI. the- Roan to.
solved itself late a Committee •n~ehle SIM* OK
Colonel Woos objected to a %lease Introduced into
the Bill last year, dot taking sway the metros! which
the Colosols had ode the stadia/ of their regiments.
Lord Pasonasnott defended the necessity of the
clause.
The Mose haviag seamed, the Report was *fasted
to be received to-adorrovr.
SLIM RILL-14os the motion of Lord Canna-
muse, that the Hone resolve heelf into a Csaunhese
of the w►ole Rouse apes the Mien NW
Sir J. Illacstyleete Me. met *the Intyposs of en-
wrist late any geseval discussion of theiseerits of thin

that it be an instracti to to the
r certain clauses which he should
'1 he last time this Bill was in.
House, in the year 1818, his Illaj.estes
proposed it upon no other ground than
'ranch exiles, and three Prentb
_..r,rs established in the Netherlands. This
ground was deemed suft.ci.•nt fur withdrawing the pro.
tection of the laws front 22,000 foreigners uho Were
thing in this country. lie would not du ell upon the
a►surdity of supposing, that, under existing circum-
stances, incendiaries from Seville, or Berlin, or Park,
were likely to avail then selves of tumults at Glasgow
or Manchester. This miserable reason for continuing
the measure, had been t :posed by all the powers of wit
sad reason, and had been justly held np to the scorn
and derision of the House. Under tbesecircumstances
it was far from his intention to do what was totally
uncalled for by any arguments that had been offered
on the other side, namely, to enter into any general
disrassion of this question. He believed it was den
object of his Majesty's 31inisters to wear out the ps.
Grace of their opponents, and to persist in offering
no arguments in swpport of the measure till out of mew
lassitude no opposition should be w.►de to it. Hoer.
ever paradoxirml it might appear, this Bill was likelt
to emit on till it became part of the law of the lam,
merely beeause the objections to it were never. aoswer.
etl: Upon the present occasion he should make so
further observations upon this most tyrannical and mt.
crable measure, for so he should never erase to call
it, but be should proceed to move that it be as instrsc.
Lien to the Co 11111 l ittee of the whole House to receive
and consider certain clauses, which might in some
degree mitigate its effects. In the Alien Bill of 1814,
a sort of appeal was given by which the Privy Come i
was enabled to consider sty excuse offered on the part
of the Alien ; hut as it had been held that the Alien
could neither examine witnesses nor be heard by Coati.
sel, the duos.. was in elfe.l a mere nullity, and a
mockery ni.on the person aggrieved. The object s{
his first amendment, th :efore, was to enable the Alien
to defend himself against any charges which might be
made against him, either in person or by Counsel, and
to examine a itnesscs before the Privy Council for that
purpose. The second clause which he had to propose,
would pat the sincerity of his Majesty's Ministers to
the test, since he presumed the object of this was is
Ilff!xtratorillnary power to Government, to enable
r ttect the country against the machiwitions of
gas persons ; an.l since it was not pretended that
-• applied to foreigners of whose pacific clam.
doubt

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• THE ,S7ATES lAN • . .._ ~
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be trio utittathan (fro iasprial setfan floctilof4ltis • . The Right Flan. Gestlessen, in qiestion, but to mov• t
'ha master, kbo bad been the pfloci °Wader, t ceitse of oiservations which &e dads to rebmmittee to consider
llowed to be allowed to be at large frith Impu- snow Pie ev trey 6f the measure,wstated, that it was submit to the /louse.
Impartial justice ought tu be duo* without most necessary that Na Saes -iwili•Aleespaay *beak' , frothier(' to the House,
wing the rank of the parties. have a force at their disposal to protect their ware- Ministers had propose 4
Texxvsoto said. that warrants bad been served imams, which coalairMillsrepetti of so valuable a na- that there were 3t4 Fre

actor and int •otions no doubt could be entertained, his -Ai
eft clause went to protect men of tb is eh araeter from the d
peration of the Bill—to exempt foreigners who bad I
ken every pledge of attachment to the country, sad a
beilience to the laws, which the possession of property,
ted the most unexceptionable conduct could give. Ihe JP
louse wonid eximpt all foreigders who had settled is this
' I
Junky before the year 1814. He had Chosen that
erica/. as a teat and criterion of honesty, because the "0
louse would not extend to Napoieonists or Jacobite I
rho did not leave France before that period. nor to ...11
ay class of men Who could be supposed to be desirous
f disturbing the peace of the country. The third I
lOase, which it was his intention to propose, was of
till greater importance, and one to which be would
ale the liberty of soliciting some attention from every
lubber of the House. It had reference to a subject,
be discussion of which he had deeply lamented, and
pen which, for many reasons, he had hitherto ab. . .4
mined from making a single observation, principally . ;
•
amuse be wished to preserve that temper, which it ..
•
ras so highly necessary to maintain in a proceeding
rhere the House might be called upon to exercise its ,
adicial functions. It was most important that the
haracter of the House should not be brought into sus-
.9'
icion, or that the slightest doubt should be cut upon
.1.
he strict impartiality of its proceedings upon this
sost painful proceeding. That the prosecutors ought
of to have any undue influence over the witnesses is
ny legal proceeding, was a proposition too simple sad . ,
bvions to require any illustration. It was his hoer •
ion, therefore, to move that it he an instruction to the
:onrittee to receive and consider a clause, exempt's,
rom the operation of this Bill all witnesses who might
one into this !wintry to be examined as whom.' for •
r against her Majesty the Queen. It was extremely
essential that his Majesty's Ministers, who were ces.
titutionally the prosecutors in this case, should ad •
*seen the means of refusing her Majesty themsens d
leftism, by excluding her witnesses ft** We emote"
t was equally necessary that they shoats tistrmisse
Beau of bani‘hing their own witnesses ; for althellgbils
lid sot sappi,se that they would exercise such arum:
bey would be enabled to suppress all that testiest* • s''
which was disagreeable to them. The Hon. Membit. ' s•
Proceeded to move his first clause : .1.,
" That the Leeds of the Pri”. Council shall emu SO Ilk ' 1
Islivortml to the Al.. a IptumeW usanwery of the saliteMs sib .
(aged Wilms him. sod album hies a reasonable tithe tepee.
! I
pare his defames ; sad that it shall be 'weal for the Alio to
rumble we isser,. sad to he beard Aber by biome sty .•
Consul is his delesee."
Lord CAITLIRIA9II said, that none of the duals ' ' .
proposed by the Mow. and Learned Gemara* OM
4.
mew, except the last, which arose out of the wailer ,
eireamestances la Which they wets now placed. TM
first clause proposed by the Hon. aid Learaed Sado-
man, was to enable the Privy Council to ludas* •
judicial inquiry Into the atom for which in alien. yes •'
Not out a the country, and to furnish a mg,
statement of the circumstances which might' y
him an object of jealousy or suspicion to the r
Now. it was obvious, that if there was any grsomelbt ' 1.
as Alias Bill at all, eases west often arise la Ai* ,
tliwpolltiral reasons Web might render it expoillef ,
..
* send an alien out of the country, could wt be •
*rowed. As to the second clause proposed by the
Hos. Gentleman, to take out of the vendee if fill
Bill all foreigners who bad settled in this Cossul .
since the year 18141 It too mach to misuse that lif
foreigas who had happened to reside hem darts'. .
wareould pentibly be an object of jealousy to slif Stam-
ina sal; just distinction .hick could he resegfisid •
by the Legislature, was that hetweeo foreigners la,
were eataralised 1* this tenantry, and A tee who erred
ad 'ingenue la this cos atry. If he had iskjeclias ' .
to the two list clauses. his objection to the Oda Int '
,
laisitely drover. He could not eweeeive • a sof;
feel itspetation epee the 10•Ternement of h 410014, ,
•
than it should be suspected of exercising:l4par 611
obstruct the purposes ofjoitice. Did doe Deentweldf
•
. .