The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-01-07 00:00:00

Mr. BitiaiLEY-MOOItE said there wag; but putting that
aside for the present he would state, that on referring to Mr.
Belshana and Dr. Channing, he found that they used a ver-
sion different to the authorised version. For the present he
would put aside the Unitarian Bible, but there was the Arian
Bible ; and with such a variety he wished to know what sort
of religious instruction they could get out of such a cauldron?
That would be turning the schools, in his opinion, into
nurseries of scepticism and infidelity, and the sooner they
were closed the better. But to set aside altogether the argu-.
ment in a religious point of view, or rather as regarded
which edition of the Bible was the best, he would put it upon
another footing. He thought that all would support that
system which was calculated to produce the greatest amount
of morality in the mind. He might contrast Catholicism
with Protestantism, and afterwards contrast Protestant Prus-
sia with almost demoralised Rome; he might contrast
England in opposition to those once great and magnificent
countries Spain and Portugal; but he would come nearer
home, and take the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland ; and he was prepared to prpve, that where Protest-
antism reigned and Catholicism and Homanism prevailed in
a lesser degree there was a greater amount of morality, and a
smaller amount of crime than in any other part of the em-
pire. if any gentleman should doubt this, he should be
happy to show him from some tables Which hei had drawn up
upon the subject that such was the case ; and as he thought
a few figures were worth all the declamation in the world, he
begged to call attention to them. Mr. Moore then read
some statistical tables, which proved clearly that where Pro-
testantism abounded crime was very much diminished, and
that the contrary was the fact in every country where Popery
abounded. He should not dwell longer upon this- subject.
It was his intention to have said much more, but he felt that
after the debate which had taken place it would be unneces-
sary. He should support the original motion.
Mr. BOLTON suggested that, as it was now past 3 o'click,
it would be advisable to adjourn. (Cries of " No, no.")
Mr. PLATT briefly supported the amendment.
Mr. YATES said he could not let this measure pass with-
out entering his strongest protest against those principle's
which had been laid down by the Education Committee. It
was asserted by the gentlemen on the other side. that they
thought the Roman catholics would not be driven out of the
schools, but how they could entertain that opinion when they
had a note from the Roman catholic clergy, saying the chil-
dren could not go to the schools on these terms, without
compromising their religious opinions, did appear to him to
be astonishing. It had been said by Mr. Parker, or some
other gentleman present, that the objections made by the Ro-
man catholics were very unreasonable, as all they required
the Roman catholics to do was to read the Bible, which would
guide them to heaven. Now, it was not for one man to judge
for another what it was his duty to do or not to do •, religion
was a thing between man and his'inaker, with which no one.
should rashly interpose. The right of conscience was one
which they ought never to relinquish ; it could neither be
bought nor sold ; they might at times give up property, they
might give up personal liberty, or even their lives, when they
thought that their country required the sacrifice ; but they
could never give up their conscience : that was a a thing en-
trusted to them to be preserved until the day of their death.
If it were important that they should acknowledge the rights
of conscience and religious liberty as regarded those who had
arrived at years of maturity and were able to judge for them-
selves, how much more important was it that they should not
attempt to violate the consciences of children, to contami-
nate their truth, ingenuousness, and unsullied purity, by
causing them to say that that was true which they believed
in their hearts to be false? Would they dare to violate their
consciences by telling them to do that which they wore told
by their priests and religious teachers it was improper for
them to do ? What was it that caused our Saviour to place

:tle children in the midst of his disciples, and so tell them
at of such was the kingdom of heaven ? Was it not inge-
iousness and purity of mind; and would they dare to taint
at purity? He trusted they would not. Who were the
!sons against whom they were going to wage this warfare?
ras it against any savage or barbarous tribe? No,—it was

against Christians this war was begun • it was the children
of Christians they were going to expel from their schools;
they carried on a warfare against the great bulk of the Chris-
tians. If they referred to the pages of history, they would
find men of the most distinguished talents,—of the most dis-

tinguished learning and piety—men of unbounded benevo-
lence—men willing to devote their lives as well as their per-
sonal exertions and sacrifices for the good of their fellow
creatures, and it was against such men that they were
now raising up their weapons of warfare. (Hear, hear,
hear.) He hoped and trusted that they would pause before
they did this. The same God who protected the Protestants
would protect the Roman Catholics also ; the same liberty of
conscience had been given to Roman Catholics, and let not

Protestants dare to invade it. (Hear, hear.) They had the
power to do this, but Mr. Turner had wisely advised them
to use it with moderation. They had power to expel the
children—so had Herod, who was eaten with worms, when
he put to death the apostle James ; so had Nero power when
he put St. Paul to death ; so had Pontius Pilate, who died
in miserable exile, because he caused our Saviour to be con-
demned—but let them not exercise their power unjustly.
With what horror would the luminaries of their church—the

Burnetts, Chillingworths, Taylors, and Jebbs—look down on
that assembly and see them plotting against Roman Catho-
lics ! (" Oh, oh !") With what horror would they see the
council of Liverpool restraining that right of conscience
which God had given to all ; above all, that the rich were
committing this act of spoliation on the poor—that the
strong had taken advantage of the weak? (Hear, hear.)
Should this go forth to the world ? He trusted that gen-
tlemen would pause in this their headlong course. (Hear.)
It was said that they (the liberals) had received notice to
quit. If so, perhaps they could not do better than suffer this
resolution of the Education Committee to pass without re-
monstrance. They might thus strengthen themselves; but
he desired no such thing. He wished them to reconsider the
subject, and act in the spirit of true Christianity. He wished
them to consider the example of the 2000 ejected ministers
of the Church of England in 1662. That dishonourable

monarch, King Charles 11., regardless of the solemn pro-
mises contained in the declaration of Breda, that no man

should be molested in person or property on account of his
religious opinions, so long as he preserved the public peace,
was regardless of the pledge he gave when he wished to
ascend the throne of England, and expelled two thousand
ministers of the gospel. This expulsion lighted up the flame
of civil and religious liberty, which ultimately expelled his
successor from the throne. Now they were going to expel
nine hundred and thirty children from these schools; that
was an act of spoliation, injustice, and cruelty, which could
never pass unpunished. He was sure that they would relent

they considered, in their bwn minds, that- of these now

innocent, if they were turned out many of the boys might
become thieves and the girls prostitutes. (Hear and laughter)
If such were the consequences, would they still triumph?
Would they still think that they had performed the will of
God ?

Mr. PARKER said he had been three times alluded to in
Mr. Yates's speech, and he begged to be allowed to explain.
(Cries of " No, no, and vote.")
Mr. PRIESTLEY supported the amendment.
Mr. BOLTON, seconded by Mr. Mellor moved, that the
debate be adjourned, on the ground that the council might go
on for two or three hours longer, and have to adjourn at last.
On a division, which was taken by the members standing
up, the numbers were—

For the motion,
Against it....

Majority against adjourning.

Mr. Alderman EARLI3.—I hope that after this every gen-
tleman will be allowed to speak who has got any thing to say.
Mr. BOLTON said it was his wish to avoid any thing like
polemical discussion, but the question was so much on the ex-
clusive reading of the anthorized version, that he felt called
on to say a little on that subject. There were two matters
treating on the existing system of education in these schools.
One was the beginning with prayer and singing, and the other
was that the authorized version should be the book exclusively
taught to all children attending these schools. With a little
arrangement the prayer might be continued as it then was at
the South School, with which and with M r. Turner's arrange-
men the should be satisfied. With regard to the introduction of
the authorized version only, they had the memorial of the
Catholic priests in Liverpool, and he had also taken pains to
ascertain the opinions of many of his friends who were Ca-
tholics, and they were unanimously of opinion that it would
be unjust, and, in its effects, exclude the Catholic children
from the schools, if the compulsory reading of the authorized
version was enforced. With that declaration before them he
did trust that the council would not carry by a majority a rule
which in its application would have such an unjust bearing.
It was perfectly true that there were schools belonging to
churches and chapels which made such regulations, because
they were at liberty to make what regulations they pleased ;
but he knew of one school with which he was connected, in
which there was perfect liberty given to the pupils to go to
any place of worship they liked, the only regulation was that
they should go to some place, and on their parents and guar-
dians undertaking that they should go to some place they were
allowed to leave Paradise-street. With regard to the au-
thorized version, if they could be convinced that it was a
direct emanation from God ; that there was neither a word too
much nor a word too little in it, there might be something said
if mankind could be convinced of that truth. What was the
authorized version? At the time of the Reformation there were
a variety of manuscripts and translations of the Bible in ex-
istence. The Protestant divines whom King James employed
took advantage of all the manuscripts and translations that
were then in existence ; and he (Mr. B.) gave them credit for
the utmost purity of intention. They gave as faithful a tran-
slation as they could, and it was then made the authorized
version of this country. But, could any man now pretend
to say that with the increased knowledge they had now of eastern
customs, and the great number of manuscripts which had
been brought to light within the last few years, a translation
under all these circumstances would not be much different ?
The Douay version, which I,'S as a translation of the vulgate,
boasted of a more ancient origin than their own text did, and,

therefore, was entitled to more credence. The celebrated
manuscript at Cambridge contained only four Gospels and
the Acts, and the rest were all collated from single manu-
scripts and epistles, and thus it was that they had it. Some
of their bishops had made a version of them, and in the same
way as had been alluded to by Mr. Moore, they had what
was called the Unitarian version. It was true that Mr. Bel-
sham, Dr. Priestley, and others, had given what they thought
an amended edition of several parts which they considered
deficient. And as there was such a great difference of opinion
in many minds, it was but fair to give that measure of justice
to the Catholics, which they required for themselves. None
of them would like to have the Douay version as their school-
book, and why require Catholics to read their Protestant
version? One of the first maxims of Christianity was, to
" Do unto others as you would be done by," and why re-
quire, therefore, the Catholics to read a hook which they
could not acknowledge as a due authority? Something had
been said about the Catholics being one-sixth of the popula-
tion of Liverpool. He believed one-fourth was nearer the
mark. Another gentleman had given them some statistical
accounts, and had drawn conclusions which it was not always
very fair to draw ; but there was one application of it which

would show that this number of Catholics could not be right.
In the statements published by the parish clerk, they would
find that the whole of the christenings in 1841 was 10,053,
and out of this number there were 2798 Catholics, which was
more than one-fourth. He believed the system which had
been introduced had been found to be one giving an excellent
secular education, and considerable instruction in religious
matters to the Catholics after their belief, and to the Pro-
testants after theirs. With regard to the number of Catholics
being greater, they must recollect that the Catholics were
three to one, or four in proportion to any other class. (Hear,
hear.) The catholics, as a body, had very few of the wealthy
amongst them, whilst all other denominations had a conside-
rable portion of the wealthy. The catholics, being the poorer,
were entitled to have this relief given to them. The Irish were
a very susceptible class of people. On the ground of their
poverty, they were entitled to have education administered
to them, and he would ask was it just or prudent to exclude
these persons from the benefit of a good education, which
they had enjoyed for six years, and subject themselves to that
natural resentment to which they would be subjected? If
they would not consider the question on the score of justice,
let them consider it on the score of prudence. Two letters
of Crito had been published, and they furnished an excellent
illustration. They presumed that if the Town Council were
to invite the whole of the inhabitants to a feast, and if they
were to offer to the Jews some p0F15,. it would be considered

exceedingly ungracious ; but would it not be equally bad in
them if the Town Council were to invite a number of Catho-
lics to dine on a fast-day or Friday, and say to them, " We
have prepared for you authorized roast beef; we know you
have an objection to it, but we have purposely excluded
fish ?" Why would they do the same way, then, by inviting
the Catholic children to their schools, when they knew that
their priests and parents could not conscientiously allow
them. They should ever bear in mind that the funds were
for the benefit of the whole inhabitants. He hoped that
would always be kept in mind. It had been said, " Sell the

schools. Perhaps there was some justice in that considera-
tion, if they could not be carried on peaceably. He believed
they had hitherto been carried on peaceably—(loud cries of
"No, no,")—and to the advantage of the public in general
and the poor Irish. Be this as it might, the Corporation,
when the Municipal Act was passed, came into the possession
of these schools, and they were bound to deal with them as
the act directed. Mr. tushell had said he had no objection
to the Douay version without notes. He was surprised at
such a statement, when it was known that it was the peculiar
opinion of the Catholics that they were not to have any
opinion of their own, only that which their church gave them.
(Hear, bear.)
Mr. BUSHELL.—Notes are not Scripture.
Mr. BOLTON.—What were catechisms but notes on scrip-
ture? Something had been said about new schools; and if
that was the only result which was t follow. he should be
extremely glad that from 12,000 to 14,000 had been raised
for the education of the poor protestant scholars. It was a
very lendable object, spurred on as the people were by the
course the council adopted. It had been said that the pro-
testants bad been excluded. He denied it. He had given
notice of an instruction to the Education Committee some
time ago, and had withdrawn it from a hope that a spirit of
conciliation was showing itself in some of the parties by a
vote which they had given ;.and at the same time intimated
that he had been induced to give notice of that motion in
consequence of some undue influence exercised over the com-
mittee of these schools by an individual who did, in some
degree; upset their deliberations. He attended at the south
schools, and on reading the books he found the matter he
went to inquire for, and which he had seen before. It was
as follows :

" At a meeting of the South School Sub-committee, held
23d, November, 1841:

PRESENT,

G. H. Lawrence, Chairman, Thomas Sands, H. R. Sand-
bach, John Platt, A. Smith, jun., Thomas Bulley, Ebenezer
Rae, Richard Harbord. The following letter was received
from the Ladies' Committee :

" The Ladies who have visited the South Corporation
girls' and infants' Schools, have considered their charge as
ending with the committee, which had appointed them, and
have therefore waited to be re-appointed by the new com-
mittee before meeting again. Till their wishes are known,
the ladies will continue each to attend to the particular
charges they have severally undertaken, and which, they
would relinquish with regret."
The following reply was made by the chairman to the above.
" Madam,—ln reply to your communication of the 9th
instant, on the part of the ladies who have been in the habit
of visiting the South Corporation Schools, I am desired to
state, that the sub-committee are sensible of the value of the
ladies' assistance—they invite them to continue to visit the
schools, as heretofore, and they trust there will be nothing
in the Mode of conducting them that will deprive the com-
mittee of the co-operation of the ladies."
(Signed) G. H. LAWRENCE, Chairman.
November 23, 1841.
Mr. HonnsoN.—Mr.Lawrence, did you sign that?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—No.

Mr. BOLTON heard that, after the business of the com-
mittee was over, a gentleman who was on the School Com-
mittee, but was appointed to take the management of the
North School, came into the school, asked what they were
about. and, as he (Mr. B.) was informed, was exceedingly
angry, and said they had no right to send such a letter. He
was also informed, by the records of the committee, that the
general committee referred this matter back. He did not
find that the general committee or the sub-committee had
again considered it ; but the schoolmaster had communicated
the information that the letter had been sent, and that it
ought not to have been sent. Now, if gentlemen, by their
influence, could keep back that which was regularly
ordered to be sent, he was fully justified in expressing
his doubt that those gentlemen on that committee would
not act with that independence of mind, and conscien-
tiously. When he expressed these doubts, up jumped
the chairman of the Dock Committee, like a Bobadil,
and said he was independent, and would act indepen-
dently. (Much confusion.) He maintained that there
were some gentlemen who dared not act up to their own prin-
ciples. (Cries of " Question, question.") He had heard it
from parties who were there, and it bad been printed in the
papers that, at some protestant meeting, a rev. gentleman re-
presented that at the next meeting of the council conserva-
tives would all vote right. Was it befitting a priest, whose
duty it was to mind his congregation, to come into forums
and to be lecturing their people, saying that the corporation
would be all right ? Were the corporation of Liverpool to be
priest-ridden in that way ? (Cries of " No, no," and " Vote,
vote.") He had not much more to say. He exceedingly re-
gretted the fanatical spirit which had risen up since the Irish
priests had come amongst them. It might be traced to what
he would call their unholy influence. The feelings which he
entertained on religion were directly opposed to the Roman
catholics, but he was answerable alone to his Maker for the
convictions to which he had come. Believing that the peace
of the town and the interests of the town would be promoted
by going on as they had done, he would most heartily sup-
port Mr. Turner's amendment.
Mr. HARBORD felt called upon to say a few words, in order
to clear himself from some aspersions that had been directed
towards him by Mr. Bolton, and also with the view of putting
the council in a correct position. A letter certainly was pre-
pared to be sent to the ladies' committee, when it fortunately
met the notice of one of the committee of the North School
at the eleventh hour. Although he (Mr. Harbord) did not
then object to the ladies being re-appointed, he never gave
his voice in favour of their appointment; indeed, he ob-
jected to it at the first. He protested against it, but he was
told by members of the committee that the ladies had nothing
to do with religious instruction—that their duties were ex-
clusively secular; and upon that assurance he withdrew his
objection. The letter was prepared, and Mr. Hodgson cer-
tainly cautioned the sub-committee against sending it. In
the mean time he and a friend of his went to the school,
and they found that the information which had been given
to them, by a member of the committee, that the ladies did
not engage in giving religious instruction had been given
without knowledge, to say the least of it. They met a lady
of the Ladies' Committee, and he (Mr. Harbord) put the
question to her, and her reply was, " Oh, dear sir, religious
instruction is the chief part of our duty ; we take the greatest
delight in it; I, for my own part, take the Church of Eng-
land and protestant children, and Mrs. Rathbone takes the
Roman catholic children." The letter was not sent, there-
fore; the chairman had nut signed it; and upon inquiry it
' appeared that the schoolmaster had taken upon himself to
send the letter without the knowledge of the chairman.

....
Mr. HODGSON said the letter had not been signed.
Mr. Alderman EARLE said it was signed in the book

Mr. BOLTON said he saw it signed in the book yesterday.
Mr. HARBORD said the fact was, the sub-committee had
been grossly deceived, and he thought it was indispensable
for that council to know what the workings of the school
were. He had in his possession, by request of the com-
mittee, some of the books that were used which had been
introduced somewhere about the same time as the Douay
version. One of them was called the Customs and Annals
of the Jews, and it was brought to the committee among
others by the schoolmaster. On opening it in the presence
of all the committee, they found a number of erasures in it,
and the question was put to the master, whether he had
struck those passages out. He replied no. Is this book
used in the school? Yes. By whose authority were these
erasures made? Why, sir, he said, the books have been sent
to the priest, and these erasures were made by the priest.
On the committee referring to them, they saw that the his-
torical accounts of the inhuman and murderous conduct of
the Roman Catholics towards the Jews had all been carefully
struck out ! He could tell the council mnch more than this,
but under the circumstances he would not allude to anything
further. Mr. Harbord then referred to several matters in
the mode of managing the schools, and concluded by saying,
that in the case referred to, the committee had been grossly
deceived. (Cries of " Vote, vote.")
Mr. FREME moved an adjournment. (No, no.)
Mr. AIKIN rose amidst loud cries of " spoke, spoke."
These continuing for some time, he exclaimed—l have no
hesitation in saying that rather than submit to this dictation
I shall continue to move an adjournment from hour to hour
if I keep you here till midnight.
Mr. HODGSON hoped the mayor would not allow the coun-
cil to be intimidated in this manner.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—lntimidation ! Every man has
a right to move an adjournment.
Mr. AIKIN repeated that if he was not allowed to speak,
he should persist in moving an adjournment.
After some further discussion of a warm character, a divi-
sion was taken on Mr. Freme's motion for an adjournment,
when there appeared—

For the motion .. 24
Against it
The amendment was consequently lost
The following gentlemen voted in the division :
For the motion—Councillors, I. Holmes, Thornhill. Pres-
ton, H. Holmes, Mellor, J. Holmes, Bolton, Aikin, Bright,
Priestley, Yates, Robinson, J. Smith, Jordan, Platt, and
Mather. Aldermen, Holt, Bulley, Freme, Fvans, Barclay,
Earl, Moon, and Turner.
Against the motion—Councillors, Shaw, Shand, Hodgson,
Sandbach, Copeland, Edwards, lunde, Sands, Rae, As-
pinall, Toulmin, J. Lawrence, Cooper, Wood, Birkett, Glad-
stone, Bushell, Procter, Lloyd, Rigby, Kilshaw, Parker,
Jones, jun., G. H. Lawrence, Smith, jun., and Harbord.
Aldermen, Houghton, Nicol, Griffith, Chilton, Bramley-
Moore, olyneux, Crook, and the Mayor.
After a few remarks from Mr. BOLTON,
The MAYOR intimated that Mr. Aikin might proceed.
Mr. AIKIN said that in speaking of this subject he could
not but refer back to the great promises of liberality held out
to them. In that liberality a new light had begun to dawn
upon them, and of which they had had so many promises
from some members of the council. At that time a propo-
sition was made to appoint a committee, and in the course of
the discussion a gentleman threw out his views as to the
resolution that he would agree to. He was not allowed to
speak ; he was coughed down by his own party, and it was
assumed that he would disgust some others of his own party.
A motion was made to adjourn, with a view to the formation
of a committee of a more liberal nature In the first place
about five of the minority were introduced, and in the very
committee so proposed these five were reduced to three—
Messrs. Priestley, Bulley, and Platt. Instead of a more
conciliatory committee being chosen, a committee much worse
was chosen, and why ? Because that party was taken to task by
some who had supported him. They found also in Toxteth
park another person. " I have been a very naughty boy, but
if you forgive me, I do promise I will never indulge these
radicals by supporting any more of their motions." It had

been said that they bad no right to discuss anything said in the
pulpit, but if they found that an undue liberty had been taken,
he said he had a right to denounce it as a desecration of that
holy place, and to say that that pulpit had been perverted to a
most unholy purpose. And he said that if they found that
upon this very question, on which so much hung towards the
well-being of Ireland—the orange system which had been so
long the curse of that Country, was about to be introduced
into Liverpool, he could not help rising to exclaim against the
danger with which they were threatened, and he would say
that the individual to whom he alluded, was no better than
the great high priest of mischief who dictated to any person
in this matter. .

Mr. BUSHELL said Mr. Aikin looked at him as he spoke,
and he believed he alluded to him. He wished Mr. Aikin to
understand that he disclaimed any influence having been
used towards him. He pledged his honour that such in-
terference had had no influence on his mind, and Mr. Aikin
should be satisfied with that. (Hear, hear.)
_ _

•
Mr. AIKIN had not mentioned any individual, but if Mr.
Bushell found it applied a little to himself he could not help
it. (Laughter.) He begged of Mr. Bushell, who was not a
little impatient when any person interrupted him, to allow
him to proceed in his own course, and perhaps some person
might brush off the wasp as he had done to his friends oppo-
site. (Laughter.) He would now leave that subject.
Mr. BUSHELL.—The sooner the better, Sir, unless you
are lessyersonal:.

Mr. AIKIN said the personalities had taken place in conse-
quence of the interruptions, especially so in the case of Mr.
Parker. Mr. G. H. Lawrence had said, that he was half
inclined to support the erection of schools for secular in -
struction ; now, if that half became a whole, he thought they
might be able to come to some conclusion. It would save
the time of the Council if they would come to the conclusion
that the Douay version only, without notes, should be intro-
duced into the schools.
A COUNCILLOR.—The clergy would not allow it.
Mr. AIKIN knew that ; but he (Mr, Bushell) had stated
his willingness to do so, and he was quite sure if he would
persevere in it every difficulty would disappear. A variety of
arguments had been introduced about the tyranny of Roman
Catholics, and about the priesthood of that persuasion, at
the time they had dominant power. He was quite sure that,
whatever priesthood had the dominant power, so long as hu-
man nature remained as it was, that power would ever be
abused : but if they raked up old things, was it any excuse for
them to do an act of injustice on others because they had the
power. Would it not be better to show that they, having the
power, did not abuse it, and that the more their principles

were examined, and the more they were diffused, the sounder
would be the foundation on which their church would be
raised ? Would it not be perfectly clear, that if the Protes-
tants were on the right side, and the Catholics and Protes-
tants mingling together—that they being perfectly conscious
that their doctrine was based on the truth—was it not per-
fectly clear that truth would prevail, and, by an amalgama-
tion of the two classes, a better state of kindly feeling would
exist in future life, rather than that produced by knowing
that they were denounced from the pulpit? He recollected
very well that, at the school he was educated in Scotland, he
never saw the Bible introduced.
Mr. Moons.—That accounts for your having so little
regard for it.
Mr. AIKIN heard a member say that was the reason why be
had so little regard for it. He believed those had the great-
est regard for it who made the least profession. (Hear, hear.)
Whenever religion was obtruded on the world, he believed it
was to cover some serious error. If they were satisfied that
education would do good, then they must, as honest men,
give that education to those who were inclined to receive it in
their own peculiar way. It was absurd to say to Catholic
parents "We do not want to drive away your children,"
and then introduce such rules as would drive them away.
Would it not be more honest to say, " No, we will have done
with you," than to pass rules to drive them away? A great
compliment had been paid to him. It had been said by one
gentleman (Mr. Parker) in consequence of reading the me-
morial so well, he supposed that it was his own production.
A greater compliment was never paid to him ; he only wished
he could write such a one. They bad been told that they
could get sixteen memorials of an opposite tendency ; but
he did not care if there were one thousand six hundred
he would hold that up as a satisfactory reply to all. Mr. Moore
had said something about the Douay version teaching idolatry.
That had nothing to do with the question ; there was no propo-
sition about the Douay version. It was proposed if this amend-
ment were carried, that noDouay version should be introduced.
His statistics also would not tell very much in his favour.
He made it out that there was less crime in Scotland.
That was easily accounted for. There was less, and had
been ever since they became an educated people. It might
be in the knowledge of many of them, that if there was any
portion of the United Kingdom were crime was carried on to
a greater extent than another it was on the borders of Scot-
land, where thieving was considered as a good pursuit, but
when education was introduced, they gradually sprang from
being the most immoral to one of the most orderly portions
of the community. "0, but," it would be said, " they have
a religious education." He would tell them he never saw a
Bible in the school, and in the school were his children were
educated not a Bible was seen till within a very recent period,
and he was quite sure that any one there sending his children
to learn any branch of secular education, would deem it un-
wise that that the child be educated in any branch of religion.
Religion was better taught at the fireside, even in the hum-
blest cottage, and the Bible was more reverenced by being
read at home thank being read as a class book. With re-
gard to the other statistics, it was well known that where the
carcase was there the crows would be. Where there was a
large amount of property there the pickers and stealers
would be. But in agricultural districts, where there was
not the same temptation to crime there had been less cri-
minality. But they ought to recollect that the great mass
of criminals committed to their gaols were unable to read or
write. After hoping that what he had said with regard to
individuals might not be taken in the wrong spirit, Mr.
Aikin concluded by saying that he was quite of opinion that
a secular education, without any portion of religious in-
struction but what the parents or religious teachers might
give, was all that was necessary, but as Mr. Turner's amend-
ment was more likely to be carried he would vote for that.
(Renewed cries of " vote, vote.")
Mr. Alderman EVANS rose to speak, but looking to Mr.
Hodgson, he said he would wait till he had done if he chose..
Mr. HODGSON said he would speak for himself.
Mr. Ahlerman EVANS then proceeded. He should wil-
lingly forego all claims to speaking on this question, for all
he could say with regard to that council would be altogether
useless. He would put it to gentlemen whether they would
take the responsibility on themselves of refusing a mere
secular education, because the party demanding it, and who
had a right to demand it, would not also accept their religi-
ous education with it? He would ask whether gentlemen
would take the awful responsibility on themselves of refusing
any knowledge because it will be accepted by itself alone ?
They had heard a great deal about results and consequences,
and he would say that every gentleman who would answer
him in the affirmative would feel himself responsible for all
the ignorance and immorality, and for the mental-destitution
of all those children, whom they, in that manner, ejected
from the schools. He had on former occasions observed,
and had beard it repeated with some satisfaction by
Mr. Turner, that they were not an ecclesiastical assem-
bly : they were lay trustees with lay funds, for lay pur-
poses. (Hear, hear.) They had no right to arrogate to
themselves those tights and privileges that would belong to
an ecclesiastical meeting, who were dealing with ecclesiastical
funds, and, therefore, might make what regulations they
pleased, however exclusive they were in their effects. He
had heard it said, that in the population of Liverpool, the
proportion of the Catholics was 1-6th, but he believed it was
nearer 1-4th ; now if they were to go by that on the aggregate
he maintained, that they were the great majority of the hum-
ble, and in their right as poor was their right to education.
Neither they nor he would have a right to go into the poor-
house to get lodging, food, or raiment, nor could they send
their children to the Corporation Schools to get gratuitous
education. No, they should not show that little which the
Irish could pre-eminently show the Corporation Schools
above any other part of the population. It was in their po-
verty that their right existed, and, therefore, it was in vain to
act by statistical accounts. Catholics had a right to educa-
tion as the pauper had a right to the poor rates. To deny
the Catholics their fair proportion of education was trying
to introduce a species of penal law. It was nearly in
his own time, and he was not sure whether it was not
since he himself was brought into the world, that Ca-
tholics were not allowed to hold land, and that if any others
could give information of a certain kind, they could disinherit
them ; and that if a Catholic was on horseback, he might
he dismounted, and the horse was taken by any one who ob-
served him. He was alluding to what had existed, but the
Legislature had been gradually doing away with it ; but in
taking away their public rights, they were actually inflicting
penal laws on their persons. Mr. Bushell had said that this
subject was made as valuable as possible in the different
wards, in order to put down the Liberal party. Amongst
other methods for this purpose, one was to go round and in •
trigue amongst the population to keep away the Protestants
as much as possible from the Corporation schools. And
now as the cry had answered their purpose, he hoped they
would not pursue a wicked policy. A number of Conserva-
tives, and a number of the Conservative leaders he knew to
be with them on that question, but they declared that they
were party-ridden, newspaper-ridden, and priest-ridden.
(Hear, hear.) That was the reason they preferred the in-
terest and furtherance of their party to obeying the dictates
of their own conscience. (Name, name.)
Mr. PARKER.—I call on you to name them ; and if you
do not, I say your statement is false. (Hear, hear, and
much confusion.)
Mr. Alderman EVANS never heard the word false applied
to him unmoved, and he must ask the gentleman to withdraw
that word. He never used such words himself. The word
erroneous was not so offensive, and he called on him to re-
tract the word false. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PARKER was very willing to place the word erroneous
for false, but to give up the point he would not. (Hear,
hear, and laughter.)
Mr. Alderman EVANS would beg of the gentlemen to whom
he had alluded to be content with having got into their
hands all the power they had. It was unwise for the Con-
servative leaders now to follow the tail which, as many had
hinted, appeared to govern the Conservative party, as the
tail governed the head of the fish. (Laughter, and
cries of " Vote, vote.") As they had been kept there
against their will, and has he had heard a great many other
speeches, be would take his time. The same arrange-
ment had existed for six years, and the system had worked
uncommon well. What were the risks the children of the
Protestants underwent under the present system? They had
been in collision, and yet they had heard of no conversions,
nor did he believe there was one of the children troubled
their head about the matter. They had heard of the collegi-
ate and of the church schools, and of the rights of the domi-
nant constituency to do what they liked with education. lie
denied that anything of the sort existed. The collegiate and
the other institutions were under the obligation of obeying
the laws. There was nothing in the municipal law that left
anything in doubt as to the equality of all orders in the coun-
try. In enacting measures which would exclude the Catholic
children, they became in degree without using arms or wea-
pons, and did their work exactly in the same way as the
Mahometans and Arabs. They endeavoured to entrap on
the one hand, and to proselytise on the other. With regard
to conciliating the clergy, he believed they were conciliated
when the liberals were defeated. (Hear.) Mr. Lawrence bad
said that the Catholics were opposed to all education. Was
that a proper assertion in Liverpool? Were there not several
Catholic schools? and he had heard that St. Domingo had
been purchased for a seminary for the higher orders. It was
the Catholics who led the way in education. (Cries of " no.")
They had heard it asserted that they were disparaging the
Protestant religion • but he did not think that tfiey were serv-
ing it whenever they attempted to support it by what he
must call erroneous evidence or reasoning. In Prussia and
Switzerland there were a great many Catholics ; and how did
they do there? Were they not recognized in every way on
an equality ? Every way to the throne was open to them ;
and was not the schooling carried on as it was here ? As to
Spain; they had heard of Spain, but if they looked to Wirtem-
berg, Bavaria, and Belgium, it was, after all, one of the best
inhabited countries in the world ; a most industrious people—
a people probably of more local wealth, in the same surface,
than was to be found in the whole of Europe. And now he
would come home to Ireland •, and the outrages which bad
occurred there had been attributed to the prevalence of the
Catholic religion. That argued a very slight knowledge of
anything but mere figure statistics, in any gentleman to adduce
Ireland as an example of evils, being conciliated by any one
particular religion. The evils of Ireland:consisted in a vicious
distribution of the wealth of that country, where 19 out of
20 were reduced to beggaary by the laws of primogeniture,
an absentee aristocracy, ar a dominant and rapacious church,
one of whose late archbishops, the Archbishop of Armagh,
one of the Beresford family, lately left £500,000. Exist-
ence in such a country was a great misfortune : nineteen out
of twenty were uninterested in the laws, and knew not how
to live from day to day. It was quite absurd to account
for these circumstances other than by the destitution of
the people. He would not trouble them any longer than
to state, that if they were wanting to conciliate any party,
they were doing it at a tremendous expense of morality
and justice.
Mr. SANDS.—It is somewhat amusing to hear gentlemen
on the other side affect surprise at the course we are intend-
ing to pursue—great surprise that we are about to carry out
the very principles which we have all alongadvocated. From
the first we have opposed the Roman Catholic system of edu-
cation, which they introduced—and the town has opposed it,
and the town will oppose it. The town will assert its right
to have the schools conducted upon Protestant principles;
and if we (the conservatives) refuse to carry out these prin-
ciples, it will turn us out, as it has done the opposite party.
As conservatives, we have always laid it down as a principle,
that religious instruction should accompany secular education.
Well, then, upon what basis will you ground your religious
instruction? upon the authorised version of the scriptures,
or upon the Douay translation? But it is said that the chil-
dren of Roman Catholics will leave the school. Why, the
came was said twelve months ago, when it was proposed to
introduce prayers into the schools ;—and what has been the
result. Not one, I believe, has left the schools in conse-
quence of it; and I hope that the proposed plan of conduct-
ing the schools will not have the effect predicted by several
gentlemen on the opposite side. The Roman Catholics are
not so bigoted as many persons are disposed to represent
them, and I hope they will continue to avail themselves of
the benefits of these schools. I shall support the original
motion.
Mr. BIJLLEY supported the amendment and entered at
some length into the matter of the letter from the Edu-
cation Sub-committee to the Ladies' committee ; and lie
added that the mistress of the north school had written
a7letter which had been kept back from some motive or
other.

Mr. HODGSON explained the part lie had taken with re-
ference to the letter, and requested Mr. G. H. Lawrence
to state what had taken place himself.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE said that the sub-committee did
agree on that letter. There was no doubt of that. They
did agree to send the letter; they thought it only an act of
courtesy; they expressed a hope that the changes they
were about to propose, would not drive the ladies out of the
school. That was the position in which it was left. The
committee broke up, and when he was in the act of writ-
ing the letter in his best hand, Mr. Hodgson came in and
said, very properly, they were taking on themselves to do
a great deal more than they ought, and that it would be
as well to defer sending the letter until the general cow-