The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-03-19 00:00:00

had ►.. r I
e altered

They had bees
effected. not on the scale recognised loy the old A
Parliament, lint en that of the Ecionom)Peal Act intended
to be framed. This wonld sheer the spirit I. which that
Bovernment bad acted. Instead of sheltering themselves•
under an Act of Parliament, winch would have justified
'a much larger allowance, they have acted from. motive.
lolf economy. on a prospective Act of Parliament. He
would britig into one view the redactions made last
.year, and in this in the offices in tows. first year the
Admiralty. Pay, Nave and Victualling Offices. Led
fixed establishment of 317 clerks— stow the number me,
tamed was 263, being a reduction of 54, and that os tite
four offices which he hail mentioned is town. The exact
expense of this establishment it was net very easy to cal-
culate. as the resnueeration the Hos. Oestlestas woo'
aware depended on length of service. He welsh! take the
goof tee years for each clerk This would snake
the expense of the establishment of last year amount to
108,000/. The redaction effected on the average be had
supposed Would bring it is the present year to 74,000/..
being a sating of 34.0001. He admitted that the saving
would sot be immediately so great as might be expected
from the redactions made. as the poor persons who were
removed from their dietitian must be regarded as **-
titled to a modicum to live upon. If an active officeti
were •wanted. it was intended that he should be taken
from those who were thus super ted. and the. t,{
retiring allowance weeld be saved. This he considered
to be not merely a measure of economy. but an act or
justice; for these individuale were forced from their pre-
sent situations, not from their incompetency or "neon-
duct. it was bet fair that when occamon offered they
should be recalled to active service. He was detenaipmfl,
only to recall such as were known to be really West
and by this plan they might avoid employing iseaqtabfe
individuate, which sometimes had occurred. from acting
on the principle of advancing every individual accord-
ing to his seniority. He bad bees engaged with his
lion. mad Ballant t!riend from last year up to the pretest
time' in reducing the officers employed undet them. Ho
had reduced the Admiralty establishment so low, that
the absence of two clerks. from indisposition, bad been
productive of real inconvenience. He did sot from this
regret that he had made the redactions which bad taken
place. The public bad liberally requited their clerks,
and be had thought they were called upoo to make some
additional exertions td meet an emergency like Vist
whieh he load mentioned ; but be adverted to the circum-
stance to prove that a finther redaction could sot be el
fiend.
Sir B. MARTIN traced the constitution of the Nary
Board to the reeommeodation of the Commissioners in
1784. In 1796, Lord Spencer toeing then at the head of
the Admiralty, the soggestioss of the Commissioners of
1784 were adopted, and the establishment was not thee
swelled oat as it was. in the following year. Three in-
dividuals bad then been assigned to each Commissios.
That number had been reduced to two. If the number
of Commissions could be reduced, it would be his duty
to submit this to Ministers, and be them he was certain
it would be readily acquiesced in when proved to he prat-
t.caltle and coesietsat with the public interest. The Es-
timates now produced were 987.000/. lower than those
of last year. So large' reduction baring taken place.
he had expected that they would be carried by Recision-
tie*, and not. that enrrnem mould be quibbled on and
debated. Sion, iiiiwnit-tbey were ist be debated, he
hoped the boon would take this fact, that a saving if
nearly 1,000.0001. had bees effected as a sort of text.
111 r. BERNAL thought the Hallam Officer ought sot
to feel nary that the estfamates wen debated. Things
might be pointed out of which be wm sot aware, and
which, when pointed sot, he would be happy to redress.
If such savings could be mode sew. It might he fair to
ask why they had get bees made three or four years
ago. He did not wish to quibble. and he waf.
confident those about him were above any thing of
the kind.

Sir B. MARTIN did not mean to apply the word
quibble in the sense in which the Hon. Oeotleinao seem
ed to take it.
Sir I. COFFIN said, the establishments could not be
broken down ail at once. He bad to reply to the state-
ment*** the lion. °endgame that powder and shot was
constantly being discharged overboard. Our navy was
reduced to 14 sail of the line, 112 frigates, and 61 store
ships, and other vessels, in all 187. What they had to
do was to fire five salutes each in the course of the year,
in addition to going through their weekly exercise.—
This, he stated, to be a correct view of the case. He
did not wish to disguise the facts, for he had no wish to
become a new Lord of the Admiralty, if that Board were
to be restored to its pristine beauty.
Mr. lIUME thought the Committee oafht not to give
into the idea of the Hon. Officer, by abstaining from dis-
cussing the Estimates. He went over the former charges
under the same beads, and contended the present redac-
tions did not go far enough. Taking the Estimates of
1821, for the Half-pay and &Termination List, he
would compare them with the Estimates of that year.
Their total amount was in 1821, 1,484,000/.; In the pre-
sent year, 1,483,000/.; the whole reductioe being 31,0001.
This being fairly takes, was the reduction on what be
would call the Live Establishment. Now with respect
to the building,
Sir .1. YORKE addressed the Chair, bat was called to
order. Ile said he wished to speak to order. Ile
thought it irregular to advert to another head of ex•
pense.—(Cries of "Order!")
Mr. HUME maintained that be bad a right to prevent
the speech of the lion. Member from producing that im-
pression which it was calculated to create if it passed,
unnoticed. The charge for ship building bad' been
1,094,000 f. It was brought down to 610,01)01.. being al
reduction of four hundred thousand pounds on one item.
The Dock Yard expenses had been reduced from four
hundred and lifiy-four thousand pounds to one hundred
and fifty-four thousand pounds. He, however, wished
the Committee not to suppose that more credit belonged
to Ministers than was really their due. This saving liail
only been effected by reducing the numbers employed.
Ile slionl-1 he glad if the principle laid down by Minis-
ters for re-calling to active service those who were super-
annueted, were really acted upon. All he would say
was, he hoped they should see at a future day some good
result from the determination which had been an.
nounced. He was aware that by seniority individuals
sometimes got to the head of an office, who were unequal
to the proper discharge of its duties; but these in-
stances, so far as he was informed, mere very few. But
professing to act on the new principle, from the esp.-
rieuce they had of all comments, it was to be found
that it was not merit that would gain promotion, but
interest and favour. For his own part, he would rather
that seniority should be the rule of advancement, and
that when a superior man was to be brought forward,
his promotion should be an exception to the rule. He
wished to know what inconvenience bad been exile.
rienced in the Artillery Corps from acting on that pin
rink whiela he now advocated. Take them Officer for
Officer, lie believed the Artillery Officers would he found
superior to time Officers in the Army. In one item be
(*.mud a small increas... Instead of six, there were met,
3lessencers, one at 1151. two at 110/. two atloo/. and
tw,. at 701. per annum. He wished to know the cause et
this?
Sir 8. MARTIN explained that the number of )ties
sengeri Were actually necessary fur the business o'

• I _
OSOI, sad the frequent noes sages seat le all parts of 4.
town.

Sir I. COFFIN was of th e some opinioa m the am
Ileatlemen who 'peke last.
Sir. W. DIC CRESFIIINI • was satisfied that the Him
tientletnan. the Comptroller of the Nan, would be is.
defatigable is his ezertionsa to procure the n e-e-.
dortion.
Mr. CRORRR said Brit I he retnrn of 1733, .h,-,
that the aggregate expense • f the Navy department ins
greater than at present. Toe office he now hag 1... d
then a salary of MU. a year.: but the legal rem; asee',
ad to WOOL wear, and hr n aderstood that the hoses'
profits of the situation at that t time might hare beetled-
calmed at one thinned two h enticed pounds a year. He
wished to show tpat.there b, I been a gradual miscue'
every year is the number o clerks in the Admiraltma
181:s there were fifty-fin ;id 1814 they wee: ?edam/ is
tifty•two ; in 1815 to forty 1 liree•' its 1816 to toss*
nioe; 1817 to teresty-nise; I i 1819 to tweetreigq;; k
18/0 to twenty-serest its Is' I to twenty•siz, aid it 18312
there won bat twisty-four at uployed. The Coessinee
would see that every step ha I been accompanied by a
minting. The Bon. Beetle mats (.Ur. House) did net
make Ihe nanny dietinetie is between the establish-
I most end the redaction of thl force in 1314 ; there wers
I is all 4kok ogees live hum lord and fifty clerks, tie:ewe"
nalteeed la 1817 to fear Iseni Ired aid forty-aint, tied ie
An • t year they were b rough' down to two hn.
• and sixty-two. With re ferrets to the plea for till•
log op vacancies. be would gi we an instance Own; ae.
ciiried in the Admiralty a shi >ft time since. A raceme
offered, and he did not find ad y person to Who, it !Dirk
be Onto es the Sapanansed i•iis List; but he felt that
ho wield he perfectly Juni/ ed le exercising his on
pamper es each an occad on, but he did set dr. ss
He wind to the Hon. Head •man, the Cisinpirellm of
the Navy to leant if lie kA eve any n
merituoris otter
who had been reduced to ap! mince. T:iat iletwerahle
Heattleman recommended one front the Retired Ligt,asd
Ilso (Mr. Crok •r) appointed 11 .e perms to the Mutation,
pad gave up from principle I patronage which Ley
entitled to wake use of. Ho felt the claims .4 dein
i had n reduced; but. in recalling them as tie E
occurred, be woe 'ld always make the nee.
of a qualified person, and would never fur any Wm
Jarity, bring back, an :improper or ineffective is-
grwar
.dividual. . .
Mr. HUMS agreed with dm. Hon. Secretary that there
been a gradual reducti4 3 in the somber of clan.
menu of all salaries in 1813 was 189,2251.; is
, the auto was 185,0511!.; being a redaction in sins
I
n of only 4,1751. By a e :tarn laid before the Cosa.
ee„ the salaries of the eldt.ks of the Atleiraliv is the
1796, was 39,0001. and the fees were valnel at
r
. snaking a total of 40,533.'. la 1797 all fees
abolished; and the et lar:es of that office gen
/sod at 35,00u/.—The Beni' dies was then agreed to.
Sir J. 08LtORN then mimed that a sum not trend-
-34.878/. les. be granted tier the service of the Vic-
Iling-offsee.
Mr. HUMS wished to kt mw why se Mane Cesea.
*deers were necessary. E e objected to the greet,
ild my d that the sum shot ild be reduced to 33,2171.
1 Sir H. COCKBURN said, that trom an &gratin is
*syetem of managing busi nose and the dismissals( a
amber of clerks, that the full number of emontissise-
deedwas ft and to be ainall y me
. They had re-
' the office of Inspector hf the Hospital, which vas
;relent to use of the Costmissioners.
Mr. BENNET argued that the number of Consio-
trs was disproportional t o the number of went seem
ailed not bo necessary unties, the considerable redeciee
ef the service. .
.i• Sir G. CLERK said that !hen was au immense acre-
emulation of business at the flose of the tetteree, wink
required the aid of all the -.Constnissioseret tie stairs
of the office were more not s ander their immediate is-
spectiou without the assisted re oleo in ,ny clan Tbs
Medical Commissioners had. the sn perintestleate of all
the medical agemouts in the Navy, gad the minimise
into the qualifications of all surgeons appointed.
Sir .1. YORKE supposed that the Inspector of Hos-
pitals retired with a pensioei of at least MeV. a year.
Mr. BERNAL said, that he saw the same objectless
to the vote which had occurntd to bit llonourahle pries',
the Member for Shrewsbury. At a time of peace, ones
there were only 121 vessels in ordinary, he conceived
that there was no necessity fur a Chairman aid six

Commiesiosers.
Sir O. COCKBURN eopls3ined that, from the former
systetn, many clerks neglects their duties, as they left
them one to the ether. The Cominissionen foetid that
by reducing many of the clef ha, and by giving their ova
personal attention, the basimess of the departmeet was
much accelerated.
Mr. HUME said, that the 1 mai nes. would he done with
more effect by three or ftd it Commissioners than by
seven, as that number woali I Shill! a he compelled to
attend. He should, therefor e, press the amenduseat.
The House then divided, tai td the original u"Ii°11 la‘
carried. the numbers being-. •
Ayes, 661 Noes, 30; Majority, 36.
Mr. BERNAL said, that I le had discovered ruins
differences in the Estimates; voted by the House,
ask
the accounts afterwards laid on the table. The Has.
Member compared the mime tes anti accounts for three
years, and declared that then was a gross difference of
about a million. He complal tool that while redactiesi
were made amongst the woe king rtasses is the dert
yards, there hail been no alto ration in the clears/al lish-
ments. He thought there w: is no n• renal for a clerk
of the Survey. With regard to the water measurers he
wished to have some expiable tian of the result' why the
Isuboneasorers were so much, reduced in their rate of
wages. Daring the war thd v had earned 2(.5a.
and now they could only obi tin 'loon It. 45.6.1. Ile
could see no reason for this t inference hewer, the two
claws of services. lie hal understood that a civil
officer bail retired upon a superannuation of three-
fourths of his salary. Now 4me rate of allowance mat
to Shipwrights was only ones !bird of their salary Wm*
they were reduced. There s ;as another eircomstancy
which had come to his ears, t and whic'a Ime We desirous
of mentioning; it was that its the Estimates fee the
last several years; a clerk in (he Chatham-yard hog bees
sat down, who never during that periail led unneeded
Isere at all. Hr was told t's tt the indiviiin d was 41-
ways employed in the Navy I /thee, yid that a scpersto
literary at a salary of Sill(. a-y ear perforated his claw at
Chadians- The Hon. Mem) .I•r sdoileil to some ;Iter-
ations of vessels, and the saw • of the ci rimier stern, task'
ing inquiry as to the iliff,ro are o: vNiiense. thoeehl
that the distinction which a ppeared to be made betee.'
those employed in the civil Q epartotenc4, and the attains
was not founded in justice ti . tielai;er.
Sir 11. COCli HU IIN ad lid te-1 that die Clerks of St
rey might he considerably co .iu sett, :mil stated, that their
reduction was in conteitipli :ion. A Board bad bees
cent to Chadian', and a vet) little inspection convinced
them that many of the Sups rsiaino t Wirers might he
dispensed with. Wish "I:A.1 to the introduction of the
circular sterns, he considers .1 them to hr highly into"
tagemis to the service. Tic a principle hurl just lees
sr
oiled to a line of battle ship, whirl, to 11, launched
at Woolwich immediately. Awl for 1114 purpose .1 ts!'
ing the plan effectually, it in is resolved to put this siliP
:ntit commission forthwith.
Sit 11. NIA [al N coat-era ..d that !be clerk o alluded to
is having been engaged at 1 :te Navy Office, t the set
'cot of the duty for which la e received a „k
t r.,
had
served to the oil/ the Clor.ition lie received. T
Consasissi r osers bad led in the reduction epos
:he most prudent plan, for. had they VIM with"l 4ef
•aution, the parishes wo 1 have Wu loaded wick Pig'

14,0110 individuals consigned to
igloos to take Maoism of what-
It attach to the introduction of
id h.en partly lestrnmenbi in
The Gallant Member tbwe ises.
improvements that had bees
In of vessels, and stated his opt.
•ras would be highly advantage.
tied. and male some observations
ion. of the Dock-yard Itstiblbh-
ontrarencil by persons engaging
rich it, and by the 'ale of chips
of opinion that there wos Mt
ninstlon which the Hon. Hem-
et points. He would. however,
inquiry into the affair. sad
nsgressing in the manner stated,
be dismissed. He must at the
elieved the information to be in•
if this discussion was productive
Id have the effect of showing
plc details toeing laid before the
!sting to the public expenditure.
to by his Hon. Friend, laud oriel.
imrywhen on a former occa-11
r discussion the largest amount
lad ever yet been noticed. He
stated that. la the three years
• 1791, the rminity laid nut is
ships amounted to 1.113.1/110/.
led for the same purpose in 1817.
13,0001. though the retards
t only 2,400,0001. it untried,
vas an actual differmses in the
The lion. Member thew wan-
e of the minor items of expenses
coneplained that the rate of is-
eh the mechanics and civil of-
•ly too high, as contrasted with
the retired officers of the Navy
that each persons should come
the Chancellor of the Excise.
Bill.

he whole question was under the
lty, and he mild therefore give
remit upon th• point adverted to
It was Intended. he believed. to
the Chancellor of the Lade-
praonnations in question.
here took place between Sir F.
Sir B. Martin, Mr. Bernal. and
could nut hear distinctly, after
,as carried.
I moved that a sum not exceed-
to his Majesty for defraying the
d for the year 132.1
that he thought the clerks of the
they were declared so by the
Fi-
-17.
that then. as one of the Cou-
r could be dispensed with, and he
still.
1K said it was intended to he re.
one of the alterations of the en-

of opinion, that until the whole
so particular rases of roductioe
antageously effected.
LKE asked (as we eadentood)
that department ware so ducts-
eased that if the Gallant Mow
ate of hunts affairs le winch so
(Hr.Croker) could then afford
Board of (tension amide their cal-
-1 were high and a great deal of
it was the duty of the Admiralty
rates to actual circumstances.
le boom was always met with what
If the Committee would support
01 hilt that he shustld very numb
which were goieg forward.
said he did sot think it meter
whole revision at once.—lt ap-
isrudent to adopt a gradual system
id that be wished to compare the
rich Yard for 1813 with those of
1813—the busiest year of the last
Isis yard amounted to .311,411/. to
of peace, the a:pewees aro 45,0001.
.hey were in 1513. He would then
rose of all mankind, was the sum
these circumstances, a fair and res-

re understood, said that. however
mien might appear. it was sot
ilia, unless some reduction wore

red that a reduction of 5501, the
the rope-yard, be made on the ori-

,as put.
Lid that that office was admitted
Hun. Member fur Plymouth (Sir

Id not admit that the office was
imptroller of the Navy sai•l on the
rate opinion, and thet efore ought
absolute proof of the inutility of
I pat it to the Honourable Gentle-
I he lair to attack the office of this
were a greet many other offices
els should also undergo a revision,
If the office were reduced, the
e transferred to other offices. He
tetter to postpone any alteration
he assured the Hon. Gentleman,'
made to introduce each reductions
my to him and the House. A
cent, in January last, for the pur-
-1 and Chatham, and another would
Atli, haul it notbeen prevented by
a tow evenings since, against any
members. He thought the Ho-
lly his system of attacking indivi-
er irropmlinz than forwarding the
Ile woul.t he as well jostified in
the Cl.-rk of the Survey as the
rJ.

aaiil that the npinion which he
the Clerk of the Itupeyard was only
by the Committee. lie
union, I •;t he thought re.lncing this
rig oilier• ronneetetl with it, would
of confusion. It appeared mach
stand over until a general revision
Ile did not think, Loa ever. that
be rat down, because the ropeyard
whilst in all others they
aid that he should he very sorry se
of economy, as no one I be
inwelf to use • means likely to
a assurances given by the Hon. *-
rally, he could not ilktrnst that a
• place in the ensuing year, and he
Press his amendment on the present

as& a few observations, which we

i.r. se*

Sir I. COFFIN said the House womlfflive tosiefthr
the act by which the Coastihttlos of the Board of Admi-
ralty was altered.
The resolution was they agreed to.
Sir JOHN OSBORN moved that a sum not reeved-
leg 34,7611. he pasted holds Majesty, for defraying the
oxpensesof the Chatham Yard.
Mr. R. SMITH said, he believed the second officer
employed at this yard could be dispensed with.
Sir B. MART( said, the officer in question was re-
beesiuse. if discharged, he would be entitled to,
the Superannuation Pension.
Mr. HUME said. that in the year 1813, the total
charge foe this eitablisbraent was 33,241/.; and now it
was 34,760.; although we were in the seventh year of
peace. lie protested against each extravagance. Ba-
Ib e heist down, be wished to know what nee a Com-
missiater had for three clerks. Ow the whole. he
thquirkt a fourth of the expense might be takes off.
hie. CROKER admitted. that unless the duties. were
abontio be increased, the sutra for Commissioners was
too lar_ge; but the fact was, that the labour of several
other Departments was to be transferred to the Commis-
&sem Department.
The resolution was then agreed to.
Sir JuriN OSBORN unwed that the following
semi be granted to his Majesty for defraying the ex-
r:aof the following yards :—For Shostnose yard,
.1 for Portsmouth yard. 48JklUt fee Plymouth
yard, 42,1911.19 e. 6.1.—A1l of which sans* were agreed lc'
The next resolution was for 9,5441/. for the expense et
the outports. _ _
Mr. HUME said hi oh creed that a naval officer had',
been withdraws from Deal end sent to Harvrieb, ,
though there was, he believed, more duty to be perform.
ed at the former than at the latter place.
Mr. CROKER said, the officer bad been transferees!'
to Harwich. because that plaza was the principal
nee port for the North Sea.
Mr. HUME said, be *lobed to know what was the
duty performed by this officer?
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that at Harwich
he performed the duties of a Naval Storekeeper.
Sir J. YORKE thought there was wore in this trans-
action than met the eye. His Right Hoe. Friend the
Chanullor of the Exchequer bad a political connection
with Harwich.

Mr. HI:ME said, lie understood this Officer was one
of the Corporation of Harwich. He agreed with the
Right Hon. Baronet, that there was a strong suspicion
of Parliamentary infineore being connected with this
situation. Deal it was to be remembered, from whence
the Officer bad been takes, sent no Member to Parlia-
ment. He was determined to propose a reduction from
this vote. There were two Officers at Leith, with a sa-
lary of 575/. each. There was a Chaplain at Pembroke,
with 400/. a year ; there was a Transport Establish-
ment at Cowes, which cost MI. a year, ladependent of
that at Portsmouth. One of these Establishments he
thought was quite sufficient. ,He should propose the re-
daction of the establishment at Harwich ; the redaction
of one of the Officers at Leith, the same with respect to
the Establishment at COMPS and, notwithstanding
what had been said respecting his anti.epler.opalian
notions, be should propose a reduction of the Chap-
lain's salary, The total of rerketiosis was .C 1.5811,
and he moved an amendment, reducing tha rote by this
sum.
Mr. B. BATHURST defended the appointment at
Harwich : the officer Is quietism bad occupied for years
his Fewest situation.
Sir B. MARTIN said. that Ail Olimer was not kaorn
to the Admiralty as a voter, he was knave *sly as a
valuable officer. Alluding to the flosourable Mem-
ber's objection, to the salary pail thp_Littipiale of P