The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-03-05 00:00:00

TUE STATESMAN

if too large, why should it not be diminished. There
were precedents for Parliamentary interference •a ith
Clinreh property. He wobld ask the Right Honourable
the Attorney General for Ireland, in reference to certain
principles winch he laid down in the last Session, how
he could account for the passing of so many Acts since
the time of Henry intetfering with Church property?—
Had they not given in the Land Tax Acts powers to sell
Church property ? He would not waste the time of the
House in proving that the power of alienating Church
property was recognised by Parliament on different occa-
sions. The Parliament once, in its wisdom, changed the
established religion of this country from Catholicism to
that of the Protratant faith, with ell the paraphernalia of
Deans and Chapters, and Preieends, &c. As they t.ltered
the religion ones, there was no doubt hut they might do
so again.—(A laugh). —Yes, Gentlemen might laugh,
but, with the consent of his Majesty—(a laugh)—the
louse might again chance the Keltgion of the State.—
Those utfo laughed because he subjoined the consent of
his Majesty, ought to remember that he formed one
branch of the Legislature, and his consent was therefore
necessary to any alteration of the laws. But suppose the
house had resolved on altering the present religion of the
country, and selected Quakerism as the fitting religion to
'be pr.f seed by the inhabitants of this realm.—(A Laugh.)
Well ; supposing they bad agreed upon that aheration,that
that house should be a house of Quakers,. and the majo-
rity of the people should tviopt the same persuasion, what
would be the consequence? First us all there would be
no clergymen. no benefices, no preitendiries, no parapher-
nalia to maintain. He asked, then, what would become
of the freeholds of the clergymen? Could there be
a doubt that Government would appropriate them
to the use of the public, making the due allowance,
of course, for the individuals in possession. He chal-
lenged the Right Honourable Gentleman to state to the
house what was to become of the property of the Church
in case the religion of the State was altered to that of
Quakerism. But putting the idea of a change of the
established religion out of the question, he would put it
to the consideration of the houss, whether the persons
svhose duty it was to administer the religion to the com-
munity had acted up to the intentions of the Legislature,
or were they more than sufficiently numerous to answer
the purposes of religious instruction, so as to become a
burden by their superfluity to the people. He seed
scarcely to refer to authorities. The late Mr. Grattan
expressly stated, that the Church property ought to he
distributed amongst those, and those only, who merited
compensation, by a le oaring attention to the duties of
the Ministry. 'lle late Bishop Watson most decidedly
was governed by the same principle, when he proposed
to increase the stipends of active clergymen. by appropri-
ating one-third of all prebenos as they should become
vacant. Again, instances have occurred in which the
revenues arising from Prebends have been appropriated
to the repairs of Cathedrals. What mould the house
think, when he informed them, that there were
no less than twenty-five acts on the statute book
to prevent—what? to prevent Clergymen from
robbing the Church thernselves.—(Loud laughing.)
—He found in Selden, that it was by no means
uncommon for clergymen to sell tithes for ever to lay-
men. It was this and similar practices that Parliament
interfered to prevent by those different statutes. But
why refer to authority in such a subject. He appealed
to the good sense, the understanding of the house, and
would ask them was this Church Establishment too large
as compared with the population, and their means of
supporting it. He could have wished that there were
•suthcient documents in his hands, and that those which
he possessed were comprehensive enough to enable him
to lay before the house an authentic state of tke Church
of Ireland. He regretted very much that the census,
which had been partly made of the population, was not
complete. However,he believei that he might rely upon
the authorities which were within his reach, as to the
particulars which he found it necessary to state to the
house. He would take the gross population of I relanfl
to be 6,800,0001. Let it be divided into fourteen parts.
It would be found that the number of those professing
the established religion consisted of only one-fourteenth
of the whole, or 490,000 individuals! The Protestant
Dissenters amounted to another one-fourteenth, the re.
maiming twelve-fourteenths bring Catholics!—What was
the establishment for the use of this small portion of the
population? l'here were twenty-four Bishops and Arch-
bishops, Deans, Dignitaries, Prebends, Be.e., in number
no less than 511. Was this number necessary to super-
intend the religious instruction of that part of the popu-
lation intrusted to their care ? He would put this. to the
common sense of the house. Let them look to the
Church Establishment of any country in the world.
Where was there any thing comparable to this in extra-
vagance? Was it too much then to ask if the church
was thus rewarded beyond all precedent? Was it too
much to &,-k that th. re might be some reduction—some
arrangonent, that would make the reward com.nensurate
with the means of the people? Wherefore ilid Parlia-
ment recline the army? Because to maintain a certain
force was unoreessary ; and because it had not too much
money to do' so. Why not, on the same principle, reduce
the uet:!ess Bishops—useless Prebends ? Why maintain
at an enormous expense 500 individual', in luxurious
idleness? The country could not now afford to main-
tain idlei4=khe burdens of the State were too heavy,
the times were too critical, to permit so many persons
to lead an indolent life at the expense of the industrious,
who received nothing in return.—(Bear, hear.) He
had no hesitation in giving it as his well-considered
opinion, that the services of the Deans and Chapters,
Canons and Prebends, might be immediately dispensed
with.—(hear, and a laugh.) lie might have formed an
erroneous opinion. It often happened that those who
thought much upan a particular subject might draw con-
clusions which experience might not justify. All be
could say was, that the opinions which he now submitted
to the house were offered upon a most conscientious
feeling of their justice and propriety. lie felt that, if
Ireland were to he improved, the first and most necessary
step was to reform the Church. He might be too sae-
;pine; but he was of opinion that the Committee which
Le meant to ask for would, if his motion succeeded, and
they. proceede I to the necessary inquiries, s oncur in
opinions with him, that the Church Establishment of Ire-
land was too large. He did not pretend that the house
should lake his opinions upon trust. All he asked was
inquiry. The house would nut act partially. The Le-
gislature cannot deal out justice to a part only of the
community. Pariiament last year reduceil a number of
offices, civil and military. See what injustice was done
to these individuals. Their emoluments were sacrificed
to the interests of the State, whilst rich, beneficed, idle
clergymen were allowed to remain in the full enjoyment
of their revenues, that ought as justly be converted to the
service of the State. Was this justice? What reasonable
ground of Exemption did these monopolizers of one tamed
wealth lest (oa., that Par;iament should .'inn it as tau
Farm: to he toucl.e.t ? I. was imp tssible to come to an
exact calculation of the property totjaced by the Bishops.
The important secret was 'tot koewn beyond the mystic
circle of the Prelates Court ; nut in the absence of au-
thentic accounts, lie would submit to the house the re-
sults of the invir;es made by ingenious and laborious
travellers in Ire and. lie alluded particularly to the in-
vestigations of al r.Wokefield, who spent several years in
Ireland in a close examiration of the moral and politic:
sta;e of the inhabitants of that country, assisted as he
(Air. Hume) had reason to know by a gentleman, who was
nit now in the house, but bad been one of its oldest
Members, and one the test calculated to facilitate inqui-
ries of that nature (we believe dos Hoeonrable Member
alluded to the late Mr. Edgeworth), Sir. Wakefield esti-
us tied the yowl er of acres in Ireland at 14 millions, Irish

or 18 millions English•. The property of tue Church, ac-
cording to the sante att'hori'y, was equal to two-elevenths
of the surface of the whole, cultivated and otherwise. He
wished he could state that the Bishops' I Ind were 'he
only uncultivated lands in that country. But much date
land which now lay wa.te through Ireland was Bishops
property, and here, therefore, was a double loss—the ex-
travagant amount of the Revenues of the Chnrch, and the
unproductiveness of a great portion of the soil. lie (Mr.
H.) bad reason to confide in the Calculations of this ■n-
thor, because in all ea.aes where he applied to local resi-
dents for information, he found his statements fully
confirmed by their report. The gektlemen to whom
be applied, generally agreed that .Mr. Wak-field's cat,
calamine were r.s near. the truth as it was possible to
reach without an actual survey of the land.—The
wh‘le renal of Ireland, one cure with anathet, ap-

pearcd It, be fourteen milliOns some odd thousands. The
vropvtion enjoyed by the Church was equal to two.
eletenths of the whole, or about 2,500,01.101. The tithes

of 1;289 benefices !night be stated at about 5001. apiece ;
a moderate calculation, when it was known that some of

-
them produced 1,0001., 2,0001., and some 3,0001. asyear.
But even at this limited computation, the aggregate pro-
duce would amount to ;00,0001., which, being added to
the other item, would give for the Church Establish-
ment of Ireland, a total of 3,200,0001. per annum. Such,
at least, would be the produce realized every year, sup-
posing the property to be in the hands of those interested
in renderlog it productive. Then was the house pre-
pared to say that this was not too much—were they pre•
pared to say that no part of it should be taken away ?
He did not stern to interfere with the rights of those in
possession. Les due attention be paid to vested rights,
as they were sailed; let no man in the enjoyment of his
emoluments be disturbed; let the reform be gradual,
wi.hout Noting any one in possession, lie begged,
therefore, nut to be misunderstood. He trusted that this
explanation would save him from the reproaches and
abuse which some persons were but too much disposed
to lavish upon. the supporter. of such a proposition sta he
had now the honour to submit to the house. He was as
motions to have the r.al labourers in the vineyard ade-
quately paid as that those in idleness should be stripped
of their unmerited emoluments. But the really active
part of the clergy were those the worst paid. He re-
gretted that he was riot able to produce a document
which he could more to have returned on the table
at some future opportunity, shelling-the number of
curates in Ireland, the number of years they had been
engaged in tl.e ministry, and the amount of stipends
which they received respectively. Ile expected to slew
to the House, from that paper, that a number of respect-
able and metltorious individuals were employed in per-
forating those &vies which all the Ministers of religion
were supposed to be engaged in, and at what a dispro-
portionate rate—as compared with their services, or with
the emoluments of their snore fortune-. brethren in supe-

rior stations—they were rewarded. They would see from
this paper what a rare occurrence tine promotion of a cit-
rate was to an incumbency. He held in his hand a return
for two Dioceses, and th-re was only one or two icsraro-
ces of the elevation PP fa eura'e. The property of the
Church, he teed not repeat, was most unequally divided ;
for instance, the Primate of Armagh had froru fifteen to
twenty thousand pound a year. The land heloneing to
his see cal leased out to indi. iduals of his own 1.-
mily, or of his friends. The great sources of emolument
to tire Bishops were the fines which they received, the
land being continued to be let at the old onsolete rent.—
lie did not blame the Bishops ;—they did what all other
men would do, under similar circumstances —it was
bum in nature—but he blamed the Parliament.—
They were in the wrong to continote the temptations
to corruption. Upon the subject of residence the return
were toes imperfect and partial to enable him to say much
upon that branch of the question; but it was well known
that instead of residing at their benefices, several of the
clergy wandered abroad; leaving the duties, which they
were so liberally peat° perform, to be discharged by a
deputy at a miserable pittance. By a return to the
house in 1819, it appeared that in the 1289 benefices,
there were 75e residents and 531 non-residents. Without
going further into particulars, it was merely necessary to
refer to the experience of every Gentleman for a con-
firmation of the statement, as to the non-residence of the
Irish Clergy. He believed that there were few ministers
who professed a greater regsrd for the interests of reli-
gion. lie would put their sincerity to the test. World
they permit such an abuse, so injurious to the interests
of religion, to continue? lie would refer to the sate of
Scotland ; he would put it forward as an itu2Jrant con-
sideraion fur the house, that the moral habits of that
country were as much to be attributed to the residence of
her clergy as to any other cause. Ireland was nut now
in a worse condition than Scotland (on the ..uthority of
Fletcher of Saltonn) had been before the era when the
residence of the clergy and schools fur education oere
established. Resideme ought to he made a sine qua non.
No man could be a friend to Ireland, or to relig•on, who
encouraged nowresidence. There was an error in
the moral Government of Ireland. Wlren disturbances
arose the military was called upon to check them. Those
who sought those unhappy remedies might dispense with
them, if the. took Out the pains to stop, by easy methods,
the evils. ttliive the Irish," said Mr. Ilume, tt the op-
portunity of rising to the level that surrounded them,
and I see nothing in their character to make me suppose
that they will nut emerge fro:p a state of degradation,
the like of which was only to be met with in Turkey.
In no country in the world has the population been so
degraded. Poland, I believe, presrws nulling so had.
Turkey comes nearest to a resemblance. This is the
work of bad Government. See here degradation and
barbarity faithfully ~pringin; from a wicked and arttul
policy. I cannot here avoid offering the tribute of toy
thanks to that estimable association of pernane, who al-
most at their own expense, attempted to establish schools
in Ireland, for the benefit of the population. Had you
cherished that people when you insulted and degraded
them—had you administered the Government fanny and
impertially,
,instead of dividing and perveuring them—
had you allowed to flow freely, instead of drying up the
sources of improvement, what a different scene would
Ireland present ! You would see a people rising in in-
telligence, gaining strength and si.lidity in every suc-
cessive age, and maintatning an- equal rank in cultiva-
tion, in her political and moral conditions, wit:, ukase
communities with whom she had a right to be placed
upon an equality as to opportunities. When we boast
at bei•ig the glory of surrounding nations, what sym-
pathy hers the Irishman in the triumph? How ills
he participated in the bounties of that Constitution
whica indie you the admirriti4n of the world!"—(dear,
hear.) Alter enforcing the necessity of residence, he
would next increase toe stipends of the lower clergy- at
the expense of the high-r. No salary should be 1.-mver
than LAI. and lie would fix them at various soma from
that to 6or 7001. a year. The Hon. M-tuber read a pas-
sage from Adam Sento, in which that writer coodensus
the system of overpaying the clergy. They ought to
have sufficient for a liberal maintenance, but not for
keeping a style of living which night rend to lessen the
sanctity of their character in the eyes of the people.
N ver was on obiervation more justly applicable to the
Eeclesiaqieal state of Ireland. In whatever arrange-
ments be propose.l, utility was always the object. Was
not somenring 'strong in a system which permitted so
many &louses as this? In the Diocese of Waterford and
Listuore, the resident Rectors and Vicars were IS ; fire
number of nor-reticles:is was 32. He could not too often
i.seulcate upon the House the enormous amount of the
• Church property in Ireland, as compared with the popu-
. lotion and its means. The incomes of the !Nations were
large enough, but the principal source of emolutuen

t ~.

i
7

was that of lovs. Ile understood that the I..ruter liis!‘o?

of Clo.{her—not the last one—went to Ireland without
a shilling:, and died worth between 3 and 400,0001. The
propriy of the Bishop of Armagh. if let out upon ordi-
nary temp, would produce 159,0001. a year, being, it
was said, the income of a (Inman prince, lie rather
thought it would -goal the revenues of ten Beeman
pra int:4 s lie did nut positively say that this was a face,
hut the matter was surely worth ingoirinsr into. The
1 Hon. li,riiletttan next reterrel to two returns—the one

made in I`A by order of the Duke of Bedford, of all
the livings in Ireland; the other was a volume of
questions and miners put to and received from the
Bishops Of 1 relami. Both damn eats were ex.
ceedingly defective in many material parti. talus.—
There was another reason why he was &mous for a Com-
mittee. Flom time It' p irt of the Connstimioners,. dated
November 15th, 1L..19,A
19, it appeared that even the rehhi-
shop of Armagh admitted that the church( s in Ireland
were ins same of ruin, and that, he (Mr. 11.) presumed,
. .

must have arisen from theappropriation- of the money by the.
dignitaries of the Churelo, to some other use, because it
could not be sai'd that abundance of money had not been
granted by Parliament, flout time to time, to keep the
churches in the most ample rep mir. Primate even
further admitted, that the glebe lends had been oohed hie
laymen, and certainly he (Moll.) could have hartsly ex-
pected that the church would have been so lie., ligont of
their own interests, as to suffer the glebe lands to have
been seized upon. These circumstances he mentioned to
strengthen his argument for the necesoity of appointing
a Committee. Ile tomtit! also take the liberty of refer-
ring to a doter addressed by Load l'emple to Govern-
orient, in which he painted oat the advantages which
mould result from an inquiry into the state of the church.
lu this letter it was stated, that the aff.irs of the church
were little and much misrepresented, a hi; ii were only
stronger arguments for the necessity of goyim g into a full
and efficient examination of them. Al ter die automate,
of the Archbishop of Armagh, the moose would not do
its duty if they did not go into an inquiry. Ile now m ono
to another itoportaut point, nano ly, the toot mole of fa-
cilit4ting the changes which he p. °posed loam change
that shoals take place, he proposed t hat 110 vacancy WWI
the Bishops should he filled up till their number was re-
duced to one Archbishop endOour Bishops. This num-
ber he was satisfied was quite sufficient to take rare of
the interests of Ile. church ; and localise at the Union it
was tito.ight atlequate to that purpose, the number who
were to protect the interests ot the enured' of Irt I and in
the house of hoots eas limited to one Archbisl.op and
three Bishops (hear.) He contended tl.at 'hat number
would be amply oval to all the duties tiecessary to le
performed, in taking care of ti .e sniritnal interests cf
441,000 persons. In every part of the world tote Bi-
shop would be thought quite enough to tame care of
100.000 souls; but in Ireland thm y %mere even too nume-
rous for the ohmic population, admittino they were Pic-
testants. As the Dens end Chapters had no clorical
duties to perform, tile: ought all he sutler; ml to d'e
(Much laughing.)—lt the Cornelia. e shottld adept his
views upon this subject, he Ohl not think it ootOol do
its duty unless it coded upon his Majedy not to fill aloe
vacancy that might o.lcur anongst the Deana and Chat-
ters,
because they were quite an' ecessary, in his opinion.
Whatever difficulty there might be in apt ling I is pri:
&pie to :he appointing to bentlites, there euuld be 'none
as concerned Deans and Chapters. But even in Ile ease
of benefices, the difficulty was very easily removed, be-
cmuse he could show the right of the appointment to
much time greater number was, in point of fact, vested
in the Crown. In Ireland the nuattmer of parishes
amounted to 2244, which were foonol ieto
1314 of which were in the appointment of Bishops, and
300 it, the appointment of the Croon; aed as the Crown
had the appointment of the Bishops, he was w mrranteml in
concluding that the Crown h til the ap; ointnoint to no
less than 1614 benefices.—(A laugh.) He contenderitsfixt
this reasoning aaacorrect, Into weir tf the Crown did not
appoint the Bishops. the later could net appoint to tee
benefices. '1 here then remained but 630, wioch belonged
to laymen, or abcut one-fourth of the whole number.—
This was all they would hate to provide a remuneration
for, and for his part he sate no iiithnulty in coluirg to 'a
fair and just ooptalizaion as far as concerned this am-
ber. This statement ought to remove every doubt as to
the difficulty of effecting a change in the present sys-
tem. It was not a part of his proposition teat she pre-
sent incumbent should suffer; so far from it, he assured
the house that lie never contemplated any change which
would cause an injury to any individual. So great a
number of benefices resting in ,he appointment of the
Crown, removed in. his mind any obstacle to a toga
anal practicable change. There now remained nothing
for bin, to advert to, but the question of Ti hex, and oho
this he felt himself relieved from the necestity of going
infoany lengthened detail, because all men wore agreeti
upon the abuses which existed in this system. If he
would n it go into this subject at longth, lie could maim
the house that it was nut fir want of abundant dqtt-
silents to prove its evils and abuses, for so politic acre
they of information, that the only difficulty was to know
which to chuose. If a Committee of I uquiry ; should be
granted Win, he did not mean to propose that intlividaale
whatever they received now, whether 2 or 300111. a year,
should stiffer one shilling. He had no intention not to
allow them to receive the full amount of their present
benefices. He would propose that the property of the
Bishops, Deans, and Chapters, should be sold, and that
the '1 Hos should be committed at twelve or thirteen
years value, instes I of twenty-sive. and that the praises
arising from these two sources should be converted to a
general fund, from which time claims of all the present
Dignitaries and incumbents should be pail. Ile was a
tisned that this fund would be envoi • enough, not only
for all these claims, but also for those of the lay pro-
prietors. These he would place upon time same footing
as the incumbents. If then this scheme presented um.
difficulty in its execution, anti if the general interest of
the country required its adoption, he saw no reason why
time house should object to such a measure. If, further,
he could show that the property ot the Bishops; Deno.
and Chapters in Ireland, was more than Rah, Jen% to imp_
port three such churches. amt', he woilloi ask, should
Parliament consent to such as uneecessary pressure
upon the landed interest, at the moment it was its
its greatest distress ? Ihe measure which he pre-
pored was not altogether novel. It 114;1 been already
pr..ctised in other countries with a beneficial effect. In
Tuscany, Prince Leopol f took the prop oiv belonging
to the deaths, and a ith the produot arising from a com-
mutation of tithes creattd a fund, out of which the
claims of the Church and the Lay Proprietors were paid,
and ever after the land was freed from the payme tt of
tithes. Here eas an instance ot its practicability; and be
saw mr reason why a shinier measure should be less
practicable in England or lreland. He could Lot he p
saying a word or too tip in the conduct of the Clergy
with repot to the present question. Some of them
seemed to have taken a decided partaosirst any chanee•
At a Meeting of the. Clergy, convened by the Archbi-
shop of Arinegh, Resolutions were entered into expres-
sive of their hostility agaiust any alteration in the pre-
sent state of the Clinreto. lint lie could net ronceir'
what right the Clergy bad to interfere ia any alteration
which Parliament might think proper to make. They had
no right to concern themselves about their successors,
no snore than the officers of a battalion had to enter into
resolutions for the purpose of preventing their being
disbanded, or preventiog the reduction of the pay of
their successors. The former had no more right to in-
terfere titan the latter. Time Clergy refused to take a
remuneration Irons Government fur their duties. No,—
s ti they, i.e are too independent in principle to twee to
such a measure that would place us in a state of subset

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