The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-12-16 00:00:00

ADJOURNED MEETING OF THE TOWN

COUNCIL

The adjourned meeting of
the Town-hall on Wednesday

the Town Council was held in
The Mayor presided.

COMMITTEE

Sir THOMAS iinni,icKen said it would be exceedini:,..
venient if the council would consent to take the proceedings
of the Dock Committee first, because
on which they could come before the council for confirma
tion. If the proceedings were not confirmed to-day, they
would be confirmed as a matter of course, as the ten days
would be expired.

iv con-

this was the last day

The MAYOR said it was his intention to have mentioned
this circumstance, if Sir Thomas Brancker had not intro-
duced it. The matter rested with the council.

Mr. NrcoL observed that the dock proceedings would not
take up much time in reading. If, as had been remarked,
they were not confirmed to-day, they would, in conformity
with the act, be confirmed as a matter of course, so that, if
the council meant to assert that right they must do so to-
day, otherwise the time would be past. Everybody knew
how long the discussions on the education question were ;
and the probability was, that after the discussion to-day no
other business would be taken.

Sir THOMAS BRANCKER added, that as far as the proceed-
ings of other committees went their confirmation to-day
was not indispensable, but for those of the Dock Committee
it was.

The MAYOR asked the council whether the dock proceed-
ings should be now read ? (Cries of " Yes, yes.")
Mr. BIRKETT suggested that it would be more convenient
if the proceedings of the Dock Committee were placed higher
upon the summons paper. This was the third time, within
twelve months, that this very question had been mooted.
Mr. NicoL.—lt would answer much better, I think, to
put the proceedings of the Education Committee the last
upon the list. (Laughter.)

,
The DEPUTY TowN-CLERK then read the proceedings,
which have already been reported in the STANDARD, and
they were confirmed.

ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE EDUCATION QUESTION.
In order to render the adjourned debate more intelligble to
our readers, we may mention that the Education Committee,
in their proceedings, put forth the following resolution—the
confirmation of which was moved by Mr. MOLYNEUX, and
seconded by Mr. HODGSON :
"The Education Committee, looking back with satisfac-
tion to the proceedings of the past year, think it right to,
state the course which, after mature deliberation, they pro-
pose pursuing. By the established system, a sound educa -
Con, based upon religion, is imparted to all who will seek its
•blessings, without excluding any but such as refuse to read
the Bible in common with their fellow Christians • an excep-
tion, therefore, for which the committee do not feel respon.
sible. The daily business of the schools commences and
closes with prayer. The Bible is read daily, and all who will
receive it have also the benefit of sound religious instruction,
according to the liturgy of the Church of England ; but which
last mentioned instruction is not enforced upon those who
may conscientiously object to it; and therefore the children
of Roman Catholics and of dissenters are not required to
learn the Church Catechism, nor to attend church on Sun-
day. The committee would appeal to the dispassionate judg-
ment of all whether this system, alike removed from intole-
rance on the one band, and the still greater evil of latitudina-
rianism on the other, is not such as should be maintained,
and be alone maintained, by the Town-council ; whether it
be not admirably adapted to effect the greatest possible good,
without violating charity ; for however they may regret that
any should exclude themselves from participating in its bene-
fits. the committee cannot open wide the door of admission
unless by diluting, so to speak, or accommodating, the Bible
to the prejudices of those who refuse to receive it in its en-
tirety and purity, or, in deference to the same prejudice, by
dispensing with its use altogether. For neither alternative
is the committee prepared. The first involves a proposition
inadmissable in a Christian community; the latter would be
in effect to administer secular instruction alone without in-
culcating a duty on the only sure basis of religious principle,
a system which the committee conscientiously believe would
make them the vehicle of a curse and not a blessing. Both
these are alike inconsistent with the sacred trust reposed in
the committee in a nation where Christianity, in its purest
practice, is established as a part of the law of the land. The
committee are persuaded that the town of Liverpool, tired of
the continued agitation of this subject, will gladly receive the
determination of the council to maintain the schools on the
sound basis of religidus principle, and therefore in the faith-
ful and earnest discharge of their duty the committee an-
nounce their purpose, under the authority of the council, to
maintain inviolably the system of education now pursued in
the schools, and while they allow to others, as fully as they
claim for themselves, the right of acting according to the
dictates of conscience, they would respectfully deprecate the
continued agitation of a question which, if the present reso-
lution be confirmed by the council, can scarcely be discussed
to any useful purpose, nor without peril to charity and peace."
To this resolution Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE, seconded by
Mr. TURNER, moved the following amendment :
" That it be referred to the committee to consider whether,
after establishing in the Corporation Schools a system of re-
ligious instruction based on the principles of the Church of
England, and in all respects in strict accordance with her
tenets, such a modification cannot be made in the existing
rules and regulations as would render the schools more avail-
able for the classes of the poor professing different religious
opinions, by allowing their children the benefit of the secular
instruction of the schools, the parents giving an assurance to
the committee that their religious duties shall not be neg-
lected."
The MAYOR having stated that the council would now
proceed with the adjourned debate,
Mr. PLATT requested, before it commenced, that the
Town-Clerk would read the 92d section of the Municipal
Corporations' Act.
The MAYOR said his business was to call upon Mr. Aspi-
nall, who moved the adjournment.
Sir THOS. BRANCRER said Mr. Aspinall was not present ;
he had the gout, and would not trouble the council on this
occasion.
The MAYOR observed that as Mr. Platt had already spoken
on the question, it could only be with the permission of the
council that he could make any remarks.
Mr. PLATT was not going to make any remarks ; he only
wished the 92d clause of the'Municipal Corporations'Act read
If the Town-Clerk had not.the act, he (Mr. Platt) had. ,
The TOWN-CLERK then read the section, which .enacts
that the surplus funds of any borough shall be expended for
the public benefit of the inhabitants and the improvement of
the borough.

No meinher having risen for a few seconds, the MAYOR
said it would be his duty to put the amendment if no one
rose to address the chair. (A cry for " Mr. Bushell.")
Mr. BUSHELL had much rather it would have fallen upon
some other member to commence the adjourned debate, but
as the council seemed to think he ought now to speak on the
important question before them he willingly obeyed the call.
The question at issue appeared to him to resolve itself under
three distinct heads. The first was, whether the council was
prepared to maintain, unimpaired, the present system of
scriptural education as adopted in the corporation schools.
This being, as doubtless it would be, answered in the affirma-
tive, then, in the second place, the inquiry would be, was
it, or was:it not, their duty in the just control of the corpo-
rate funds, in the exercise of their legislative functions as
affecting the religious, moral, and social condition of this
vast community, to attempt some minor good for those who
could not, conscientiously, receive all the good which was
placed before them. Tben, in the third place, should the
second proposition be deemed impracticable, the inquiry
would be whether the corporation, seeing that its funds could
only be appropriated to one, always admitted to be a large,
portion of the community, ought not, according to the mu-
nicipal act, to cease altogether from being an educational
body. Under these three heads he now desired, as clearly
and as calmly as he could, to state his views on the question.
He would now take the first of these propositions : was the
present system to be maintained ? He thought if the con-
servative party acted with the consistency that they ought,
and with which be was sure they would act—if they desired
to maintain their principles—the present system established
in the corporation schools must be maintained in all the pu-
rity in which they had already established it. (Hear, hear,
and cheers.) What had been the great municipal struggle
which had been going on in this town for the last six years?
(Hear.) Had it been simply a struggle between two parties
—whether one set of men should occupy the seats in that
council, or another set of men should occupy them—whether
one should walk in and the other walk out? Had it been
simply a question whether liberalism should reign or whether
toryism should reign ? He thought not. (Hear, hear.) They
(the majority) had been contending for much higher princi-
ples than these, and having gained the victory it became their
duty, as far as possible, to reap the fruits of it. (Hear, hear.)
And, what had they done? When the conservatives came
into power they found in existence in the corporation schools
a system which was not in accordance with their views of a
Christian education ; they adopted, therefore, the only course
left open to them ; they made those schools that which they
distinctly and properly ought to have been made, schools in
which sound scriptural instruction was given to all who
were willing to receive it ; they conferred all the bene-
fits which such a system could not fail ultimately to
confer. (Hear, hear.) The Education Committee, in the
document they had issued, which had been called a manifesto,
had used the word "diluted." That was a word which, in
his opinion, might very properly be applied to the proposi-
tion of Mr. George Flail Lawrence; for, to adopt his plan,
would most certainly be to " dilute" the system already
established ; it would be to impair, to injure, and to lessen,
the usefulness of the Scriptural teachings which were now
given in the schools; and he thought be might venture to
say that he should be able to show this very clearly. It was
proposed to compel, as now, the reading of the Scriptures by
all the Protestant children ; it was also proposed, that those
children whose parents could not conscientiously consent that
they should receive that instruction, should be permitted not to
receive it—in short, that they should go without it. Now,
the result, and, indeed, the natural consequence of such a
system would be this—if you carried it out under the same
roof, and upon adjoining forms—a Protestant child would
say, " I am compelled to take these Scriptures, and.to read
them ; I am told I must not only understand the truths
which are there written, but I must practice them if I desire
to be saved; whilst upon the neighbouring form there sits a
child who is not permitted to receive these very Scriptures
which I am told are essential to my salvation." (Hear,
hear.) This, to his mind, presented an inconsistency which
would lead, as he had said before, to the utter rooting out of
that vital principle which they wished to maintain. It was
on this ground, therefore, that he objected to the proposition
of Mr. George Hall Lawrence, and on this ground that he
should vote against the amendment. (Hear, hear.) He now
came to the second proposition, namely, whether, having
now established a system of sound instruction; having pre-
pared sound education for all willing to receive it, without
limit, with the daily and unrestricted use of the unmutilated
word of God ; having fully established those principles for
which they had contended, and to which, as Conservatives,
they were pledgeci ; having gained the victory, and given all
an opportunity of reaping the fruits of it, the question was--
and it appeared to him a new question which had not been
touched upon before—whether they could not, legally and
conscientiously, without the sacrifice of any principle, give
to those children who either could not or would not, for it
amounted to the same thing, accept all the benefits offered
to them, at least a portion of those benefits. (Hear, hear.)
He had given to this subject much consideration ; he
had devoted to it much time, much thought, and
much anxiety; and if he were wrong in making the
suggestions he was about to make, he would not - come
before the council and beg, as some had done, the council to
' pardon him • he would tell them that he had been sent into
that council unfettered both in thought and action, and,
having been so sent, he would ask no pardon for doing that
which he believed to be his duty. (Cheers.) He asked for
nothing to which an honourable man was not fairly entitled.
(Hear, hear.) Were he to suppress the convictions of his
mind, he should be equally dishonourable as though he as-
serted that which he knew to be grossly and wilfully false.
He came, therefore, coolly and deliberately to the inquiry in
the second proposition, which was this—whether, having
accomplished all this good, (which he trusted they would
continue to maintain so long as the corporation continued
to be anieducational body,) they could not conscientiously,
without any sacrifice of principle, do something for those
who were, unfortunately. shut out? His belief was they
could do something, and be believed, further, that they ought
to do it; he was prepared to maintain that they ought, and
he would now proceed to shew why they ought. (Hear.)
It would scarcely be denied that the Roman Catholics were
excluded from the corporation schools. (Cries of" No, no,"
and " Yes, yes.") • When he fought side by side, which he
did, with the gentlemen he saw near him—when, perhaps,
he might say he was in the front of the battle—contending
for those great principles which were happily now triumph-
ant, he expressed a doubt, which was in print for anybody
who chose to it, refer to, whether the Roman Catholics could '
receive these benefits; he hoped they would, but he doubted I

it; and he then reserved to himself the right of considering,
when the time should come, and it had now come, whether
they could or could not do anything for those who were ex-
cluded. (Hear.) Well, then, were Roman Catholics ex-
cluded ? They were self-excluded, he admitted, but they
were excluded; because, if you applied a test which could
not be swallowed, which could not be taken by them, that
was, virtually, an exclusion. Who would say that Roman
Catholics were not excluded from parliament before the.
Emancipation Act? Who would say that dissenters were
not equally excluded from civil rights before the repeal of
the Test and Corporation Act ? lie was not there as the
advocate of any party ; he was nut there to fight the battle
of conservative against fiber:ll,l)la to deal with these facts as
faithfully as it was in his power to deal with them. (Hear.
hear, hear.) Then it had been argued that they would he
justified in pursuing the rule of the lex talionis ; that, be-
cause their opponents adopted a system of exclusion, there-
fore they should do the same. Now the present Council of-
fered to all that instruction which their late opponents refused
to give to any.. There was, therefore, a difference between
them. But why should they do that which their opponents
had done, unless they wished to meet the same result as bad
visited their opponents? (Hear.) Let them look to their
present position, and compare it with what it had been.
What had placed them in their present position of a woful
minority ? Their unbridled exercise of the power which they
possessed had placed them where they now were. (Hear.)
Should the Conservatives then follow in their steps? No, he
replied, let them not; he trusted they would never legislate
upon such a ground as that, but upon higher grounds if they
were to legislate at all. It might be said that he was exer-
cising false sympathy with regard to those who were now
shut out. He was willing to submit to the charge. Much
rather would he bear the charge of false sympathy than he
would bear with that of want of charity and injustice. (Hear,
hear.) Having then, done all they could for religious in-
struction ; having, as it were, fed the hungry and clothed the
naked, should they not do something for those whose neces-
sities were yet unappeased? What was their position? They
were there, in that Council, as corporators,—public prosecu-
tors. What would be said to a criminal, a youth, brought
before a jury, if he pleaded ignorance of the law in extenuation
of his crime? Would that be a ground for mitigation of pu-
nishment? He was sure not ; the criminal would be told he
must know the law and respect it. But suppose. he
should rejoin " I have been born in Liverpool and bred
there, but there was no attempt made to give me educa-
tion, so that I should know the law." He (Mr. Bushell)
should, as a prosecutor, if this statement were made, feel
himself in a dilemma that would be anything but satis-
factory to his mind. They might be told by an excellent
friend of his, whose head was full of statistics, that where
there was a limited instruction given there was more crime
existing than there was in a state of utter ignorance. But
what did that argument amount to ? Why, to nothing
unless to this—unless you can give to the lower classes such
an amount of instruction as would unfit them for the station
in which it has pleased God to place them, it would be better
to give them none at all. Further, they had no religious test
in their Infirmary, nur in their Dispensaries ; they had no
test in their other various charities. People were admitted
there by reason of their poverty or their misery ; no religious
test was exacted from them before they were received ; on
the contrary, the part of the good Samaritan was acted, the
doors were thrown open, and no questions asked. The poor
went there when they required such aid, and the same atten-
tion was paid to all. They scarcely required a test in the
Workhouse, which was an extraordinary fact; or if they did,
it was of so questionable a nature, that it scarcely amounted
to a test at all. True, the Bible and the Testament were
read by all in the Workhouse school ; but lie had that very
morning been informed by the master, that he never, under
any circumstances, ventured to enter into discussimi with
regard to the truths of the Bible. But they went further
there, for they acknowledged Roman Catholic teaching to be
religious teaching by admitting Roman Catholic priests into
the Workhouse ' • the children were then separated into
another room, and the Roman Catholic priest gave instruc-
tion after his own manner, to the children of his own per-
suasion, regularly two days in the week. This was an ad-
mission, at all events, that they did not deny that Roman
Catholic teaching was Scriptural teaching. This was a very
important fact. The council could not say there was no
analogy, because they were not legislating for the Work-
house ; the fact was, they were legislating for the same
community, and therefore there should be no preference in
their system. (Hear, hear.) Now, he bad a plan to pro-
pose, or rather, not a plan to propose, but a sugges-
tion to throw out. He had considered this suggestion
in all its bearings, with a desire, if possible, to meet the ob-
jections under which the present system laboured; with a
desire to maintain the present system in the schools, to make
it efficient by getting rid of the opposition with which they
were daily and weekly beset. By getting rid of those diffi-
culties he hoped to cause the withdrawal of all opposition ;
and he had no hesitation in saying that this might be done
without any sacrifice of principle. He might be told that be
was temporizing, and that we must not do evil in order that
good might come; but lie denied that he was doing evil, for
if by some it was considered an evil, he considered it to be a
good; if it was considered irreligious, he considered it to be
religious; and that which they considered to be unjust, he
considered to be just. Was it not, then, possible to form
separate schools for the instruction of those who could not
conscientiously receive the religious instruction offered to
them in the Corporation Schools ? He might be told that
the law would not permit this, but he would answer for that ;
he had taken some advice on that part of the question. If
this plan for which he contended, could be carried out—if
they could do that which their opponents desired, without a
sacrifice of principle, without encouraging popery,—he
for one was not there to quarrel about the details. Let
Mr. Blackburn, or anybody else, he cared .not who they
were, of what party—religious or political—shew him a
plan that would not deviate from those principles which
he had laid down for himself, and he would throw party to
the winds ; he would co-operate with them heart and hand.
He would then form a separate school, and make the terms
of admission the possession of a certificate from a minister
of religion, that the child received religious instruction at
his hands. Would any man tell him, after what had been
said as to the workhouse, that Roman Catholic teaching was
not religious teaching? Would any man in that Council
get up and say he conscientiously believed no Roman Ca-
tholic could be -saved'? Let him (Mr. Bushell) hear that
man ! Where was he? They might commence the duties of
the school with singing and prayer. They might confine their
ducation to elementary instruction, in which there was no dan-
ger; do not teach philosophy, do not carry away the minds of
children who were to earn their daily bread by the sweat of
their brow, but give them the art of reading, writing and
spelling. He believed that a child who could read Isis Bible
was much more likely to come to the principles he advo-
cated than a child who could neither read nor write. Such
was his opinion. If there, was any misunderstanding about
his views on this question, he begged that questions might
be asked of him that he might be set right. He wished to
be perfectly understood that he advocated the system now
established in the Corporation Schools, aivl he would not
consent to its being impaired ; but at the same time he would
advocate the justice and the necessity, the social necessity,
the moral necessity, and the religious necessity of doing for
those who were' shut out that which we had an opportunity
of doing—to bring them, if possible, to the exercise of those
practises which religion taught, and to,the knowledge of those
truths which we were bound to teach. Would he let the
priest attend? No; he would not recognise so far the prin-
ciples of the Popish religion as to let him attend—
Mr, G. H. LAWRENCE.—Do I understand you to advo-
cate secular instruction in a separate school?
Mr. BUSHELL.—Yes.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—That is my amendment.
Mr. BUSHELL.—Did you understand my first propo-
sition?
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—Yes.
Mr. BUSHELL said if Mr. G. H. Lawrence properly un-
derstood the first proposition which he had Ipid down, be
would see that there was an essential difference between
them, which he (Mr. Bushell) could not yield. (Hear, hear.)
Now suppose his second proposition could not be conceded ' •
he came in the next place to his third proposition, which
was this : whether seeing that the corporation funds could
only be appropriated to one portion of the community, they
ought not to cease from being an educational body at all. To
this he most distinctly and emphatically said yes • he was an
advocate for this third proposition, and why ? Why, simply
because he believed that a greater benefit, a greater religious
benefit would result to the community, and a greater social
benefit too, if the corporation of Liverpool ceased to he
an' educating body. First and foremost it might not be
known that the present cost of education in the corpo-
ration schools, to say nothing of the interest upon
the first outlay, was £2 per head per annum. Now he would
ask any member of that council, whether they ought not for
£2 to educate four children per annum instead of one ? This
was the first objection he had to the corporation being an
educating body. Secondly, be was persuaded that the vital
interests of the town had sustained injury from the long con-
tinued agitation of this question; he was persuaded that
some of the leading men in the town had been shut out from
the. council by the fear of this very question—men honour.
able in commercial life, and respected in private life, but who
could not bear with this continual strife ; were not the clergy
of the town the proper parties to be entrusted with the edu-
cation of the people ? (Hear.) And if this were admitted,
where were the funds to come from ? He had not the slightest
fear that the funds would come. What man who had listened
to the debates in that room, or who had read all that had
been written upon the subject, and who knew anything of
those who had so spoken and written, could for a moment
doubt that funds would be forthcoming ? If the desire of
some of those gentlemen—be might say all—were equal to
the professions they had made, they would, if necessary,
contribute the last mite they possessed, in order that the
children of this town should be educated in the religion of
our church. He was not himself a man of much means, but
to show how far he would go in :this matter, he begged to
say he would put down his name for £lOO whenever the
schools should be sold, to retain them to the church. Let
others do likewise according to their means, and there
would be no difficulty in- educating the poor. (Hear,
hear.). He had another word to say before sitting down.
He had been told, that if he, or ,any one, dared to lift
his voice against the fiat which had gone forth, he must
look to his seat in that council. 'Now, he (Mr. Bushell)
respected his constituents most highly ; no man re-
spected them more than he did ; and, moreover, he thought
it was the duty of any constituency, if their representative
made a pledge and broke it, to kick him out. There could
be no doubt about that—(hear, hear) ; but could it be con-
ceived for a moment that any intelligent constituency in
Liverpool, would desire to send their representative to that
council not for the purpose of deliberation, but bound both
in thought and action ? He would not think so degradingly
of his constituents. His seat was at their disposal any day,
for he occupied it not for his own benefit, but, as far as his
ability went, for their's ; and, therefore, if they desired to
get rid of his services all he could say was, that be was ready
at any moment. But while he sat there, he would not con-
sent to be a mere puppet; nodding and bowing as the strings
were pulled by some dictator from without.—(Hear. hear.)
He was there free and unshackled, and with a desire whilst
he would not sacrifice principle to serve any party, to do
ample justice to all.—(Cheers.)
Mr. NORTH then rose. He said that as a new and
reasonably modest member of the council, he had patiently
listened for many hours to this debate, without any de-
sire to take part in it—not because he was unwilling,
upon occasion, toicombat according to his ability for the faith
which was in him, but because he thought there were there
many abler, as well as older, men, in whose presence their
inexperienced juniors were properly ordered to keep silence
and lay their hands upon their mouths. Itwas true that, as the
proposer in the Education Committee of the report now under
discussion, as " the pious druggist " that was of Mr. Earle's
fancy (hear) lie bad been always ready at any time, and under

any circumstances, to take his full share of the responsibility
of supporting it ; but as the debate proceeded, he confessed he
found his own natural inclination to be silent gradually in-
creased, because he found, as they went on, that " with the
aged there was not always wisdom," nor " in length of
days understanding;" that was, that town councillors, how-
ever exrerienced, and zealous, and active, were liable to the
failings of minor mortals—(hear, and laughter,)—that they
could betray a cause by their own indiscretion much more
effectually than it could be assailed by any power he could
hope to bring to bear against it. In,:short. he came to the con-
clusio❑ to use another expressive phrase of the gentleman
whom he had already named, that if he did but give rope
enough to the supporters of the amendment, it might probably
happen that there would be no occasion for him to obtrude
himself at all. For this debate upon the part of the tisailatits
of the Education Committee had presented nothing to his mind
but a series of false reasoning because almost always wide of the
real question at issue (hear, hear,) of morbid sympathy con-
jured out of circumstances having no existence except in the
imagination of the speakers, and of the perversion, as it ap-
peared to him, too plain for answer, of a religious principle
to mere party purposes. (Hear.) He did not know whe-
ther, after all, he should not have finally determined to re-

main silent, but that the thought occurred to him that he
might at least do some good by attempting a brief comment
on some of the speeches they had heard, assured thereby, 8t
all events of this result of his labours, that if he failed
at
imparting himself any interest to the debate, be migat
least prevent the loss by evaporation of much of what the):
had heard by no condensing it, that it might be impresed
upon all their minds for ever. (Hear, hear, bear.) 5,1"1",t
so. long upon what had been said—and alone, he had almost
said, for a friend of his near hint had fallen asleep, over-
whelmed by all he had heard—(iaughter,)—an epigram occur:
red to hire, as old as the days of 'his apprentice:Alio, uttered
impromptu in the Court of Chancery, with regard to some
noted speakers of that day, but who were all long since gone

. _
down into silence : •
Mr. Leach made a speech, angry and wrong,
Mr. Hart played his part prozily and long,
Mr. Parker, (of Lincoln's Inn, Sir, said Mr. North,not
of St. Anne's Ward,)
Mr. Parker made that darker, which was dark enough
without,
And then the Lord High Chancellor said, " Gentlemen,
I doubt."

—(Great laughter.) Not that there was such affinity be-
tween the eloquence so happily hit off in these lines, 10,d
that which the council had been rejoicing in, still less did. !!!
mean to impute that there was any analogy between to'
doubt upon Lord Eldon's mind. and the clear and lucid con-
viction which must of course irradiate the Mayor's when Ile.
(Mr. North) had done, but there was something in the Fe
neral character of the debate which had made the ouotation
irresistible. Aud now for their individual sketches. They
had
begun with a lugubrious settlement of account between Mr. II
H. Lawrence end his own conscience; he would rather say:
an attempted settlement, for when he had ended his speecn,
the account was quite as open, the figures all as ravelled, awl,
the balance just as wavering as when he began. (Cheers.)
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive" ust
ourselves ! How devious, dangerous, and full of warning r°
that course always be which was trimmed daily to some e",
varying, ever vain notion of liberality or expediency, taster
of being steered right on by the fixed star of principle ! Il e
wondered what Mr. Lawrence had been fighting for for tn:
last seven years, for assuredly all he had wen he had no
flung to the winds ! (Hear.) " The duty of giving religi°.s
education to the poor" was the watch-word and gatherlq
ear
cry of the tory party in their upward struggle—(hear,
—it .was now their 'f tower of strength," and it would nef
please God, the Shibboleth of all their policy to the f1(1,,e
time, (Cheers.) After having" fought this good fight
Lawrence deserted them, not in their hour of need, 811,Z
therefore well, but in the time of their utmost trim', Pr
Did he not say well, then, that this weakness was for thel
warning? Why it was intelligible upon no other grown,„
Loathing, as be did, the substance of Mr. Lawrence
amendment, he would not stop to criticise its form ; yet the);
might perhaps mark both the wisdom and the compliment
of proposing to refer back this nostrum of secular educatoA
to the very committee who, by a majority of ten to one, bat;
already declared such education to be a curse. It was riot
for him to presume to lecture Mr. Lawrence as to his posi-
tion in the council with regard to his conduct on this VI.
tion • but, in justice to himself and others, he thought "''';
might take the liberty of suggesting to him the propriety 0'
retiring from the Education Committee, with whom it m'!9
impossible he could again act (hear and cheers) of which op-e
nion he (Mr. North) thought the council would be, when i
stated that to no member of that body was it at all know?,
until after the last meeting of the council, that they were to be
exposed to this attack from their colleague. (Hear, heari
hear.) The next speaker was Mr. Turner, but he was
distinctly heard at his (Mr. North's) end of the room•
conclusion, however, that gentleman told the council in t','d
original language that truth was very great and would
prevail. No doubt she would prevail, but she would cer"
tainly owe no thanks to Mr. Turner for his speech-41,3r'
he had made a statement which, though not literally a viol
tion of truth, was certainly the most unfair and uncanah•
distortion of it he had ever beard.
Mr. TURNER begged to move that the Deputy Town-cleric
read the numbers.
The MAYOR called Mr. Turner to order; and requested
him to wait till Mr. North had concluded.
Mr. NORTH said, in continuation, that he was going to d°
justice to Mr. Turner if he would let him. That Mr. Turner
had said, that since the change of system, the numbers in t"
schools had fallen off by about 280. Now, to enable him to
make this assertion for a purpose, Mr. Turner had begun h's
computation, not as he ought to have done, if the assertion
were to prove any thing, from the period when the new sys-
tem began, but from a date before tl,at change, when all the
Roman Catholics left the schools in a le)cly.
Mr. TURNER said he had only referred to the actual
figures. (Callof " order" from the MA•,-mt.)
Mr. NORTH.—Such misrepresentation a. this could milt
damage in the recoil, and Mr. Turnerhad been well answered
by Mr. ilarbord, who told him that so far from the schools
having diminished from the change of system, they had steadill
and invariably progressed, and that they were rapidly in-
creasing now; to which he (Mr. North) might add also,
the encouraging fact, that since this time last year the now;
bers had more than doubled. (Great applause.) The nell,,
champion was Mr. Ilornby, of whose speech he admitteui
with the greatest pleasure, that if it had been as Substantit
in its premises and as sound in argument as it was elegant I`,
expression and gentlemanlike in tone, it would have been far
above his (Mr. North's) praise. But it was little more thao
a romance from beginning to end, a pathetic, and, he was VT
sure, honest picture of abused power and undeserved so
fering, but, fortunately for humanity, drawn only from fictitg'
and coloured by sickly sentimentality. (Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. North) passed by Mr. Hornby's denial of the right 0,
the Education Committee to originate this discussion, thong'',
it should not be quite unmarked as a genuine specimen ot
that liberal notion of liberty which claimed for yourself th!
utmost license, but denied to your oonent even the right
of free agency. (Hear.) Neither should it be forgotten the,
this denial came from a member, or at all events from a OP.;
porter, of the former Education Committee, who, in tbel
abuse of power, in their " little brief authority,
Played such fantastic tricks before high heaven,
As made the angels weep."
(Cheers.) But let that error pass, for it was at once set rigbt
by the Town-clerk; and he proceeded now to Mr. HornbY's
speech proper, which was principally directed to two points;
first, the propriety of conceding something, even of principle,
to the desire of rescuing these multitudes of Roman Catholic
children from running about the' streets—a fallacy which he
should deal with by and bye ' • and, secondly, of an attellPt
to enforce the same argument by endeavouring to prove that
Roman Catholics could not have the benefit of the education
of these schools without a wicked violation of conscience,
which it would be tyrannous to enforce. An honest Catholic,
Mr. Hornby said, could not attend these schools, meaning,
of course, a Roman Catholic. Why not, Mr. Hornby •
Because the Education Committee insisted that the Bible
should be read there ? But, could he be an honest Roman Ce
tholic without the Bible ? (Hear, hear.) Who, then, were the
tyrants—the Education Committee, who refused to desecrate
their schools4at the bidding of a Roman Catholic priest; or
that priest himself, who would see the lambs of his flock Pe-
rish, both here and hereafter, for lack of knowledge, rather
than allow them to read the Bible ? (Loud cheers.) Mr'
Hornby drew an afflicting picture of a father's grief, balanc"
ing in his own mind the tremendous question, whether he
should bring up his child in ignorance, or make him an MO-
tate from God by sending him to these schools—such apostacY
consisting only of the daily reading of God's own fv°rd.
(Hear, hear.) Was not this a perfect demonstration of the
hollowness of that argument ? (Hear,.) Why, to have WI
the argument good for anything Mr. H. should have prove
that the Education Committee taught the oath of abjuratiell
and not the Bible. (Hear, hear.) For one partof Mr. Hornby
s
speech he (Mr. North) thanked him : he admitted that seta'
lar education was, in the abstract, an evil, therefore he (Mr'
North) only differed with him in this, that he would not r'll
with him the evil which he knew of. (Hear, hear'
bear.) It was difficult to collect the disjeclamembra of Mr'
Earle's observations—(laughter)—so as to make any reel
elf,
them, for the style of that gentleman was peculiar to hiluseV
and, he confessed, he hoped it might remain so. (WV
hear.) One ejaculation, however, he did remember of
Earle's, and it was this, " They have put forth this manifesto
only to frighten us !" Now to that he (Mr. North) directij
assented ; he had hit off, as it happened, the very nor
of the committee, and in part their intention too; but at 05
same time they had a higher object in view than that 01
frightening Mr. Earle—(hear, hear ;)—they wished to settle
a question of which the town was weary, finally and justly'
and that, with Mr. Earle's permission, they yet intended to
do.

Mr. EARLE.—Oh dear !
The MAYOR.—Order ! order ! let
Mr. NORTH.—So much then for his adversary's game
him now endeavour to make good his own as well as a bs
player might. He would not say anything of those whom he Wilt
following upon the same side, except this, that the very hell
bit of kernel which he had extracted from all he had heard
was contained in the short speech which the council
heard from Mr. Birkett. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Birkett sal`"
it was a sin and a shame even to discuss, in a christian tour'
try, any proposal to have schools, or fragments of schools!
without religion. (Hear, hear.) So said he (Mr. North.)
and that was the question, and the only question, which r
council had to decide to-day. He would say more, name
that a school without religion was no school at all, though I,
might be, for anything he knew, what is called a rnechaui,et
institution ; and that he for one would never consent w
ar
'Hamlet with the part of Hamlet omitted " by the particular
desire" of Mr. George Hall Lawrence.
Mr. EARLE.—Oh, dear me, Mr. Mayor!
The MAYOR.—Order, order !
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—AIIow me to say, Mr. MaPr;
The MAYOR.—Order, order ! Mr. North has not Ye
concluded.
Mr. NORTH.—I am sorry to raise so much commotion !

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.I thought you had done, sir.
Mr. NORTH.—Not yet, sir. (Hear, hear.) That t""
Education Committee should have come forward With an
avowal of their opinion and determination upon this la°-
mentous question, would, he thought, be a matter of congraci
tulation to all who concurred in that opinion ; and be ba
hoped—though, after the experience he had had, it wa i
cs
rather againsthope—even that to those who opposed it it would
not have been altogether unacceptable in its straight-forw°
and pacific form. (Hear, hear.) The committee had 110`,
appealed to the council ; they came there with their charter.
and their labours in their hands, asking either for an unlit°l;
ted renewal of confidence, or a revocation of their aoPain--
merit, for no less decision than that would satisfy their ar
peal. (Cheers.) He rejoiced exceedingly that it had coine
to this ; they (the Education Committee) had now (lonesome'
thing, and that something they would not willingly 11°._d;13,11
they had now upon record a confession of faith, of wa''.
there was no evasion—a test from which there was no escape
there could be now no middle course—no " halting betweel
two opinions." (Cheers.) They came before the couqie
with a determination, resting, as it ought to :rest, upon titi
immutable basis of truth and principle ; and the coon.
must either affirm that determination, or they " made ship-
wreck" wreck " not of the committee and themselves, which wan
comparatively unimportant, but, as far as moral principle
was concerned, of the great trust which was committed t°
them all. (Loud cheers.) He felt deeply, and would make
no apology for speaking solemnly • they were now upon t;
great religious question, and therefore the Almighty himself
said to them, " Who is on my side—who ?" Might He gulf,
them to a right conclusion! (Hear, hear, hear.) He w
the
°0
not go through the report; it would be enough to remind
council of what was now the single qualification for adrnies'wr
into the schools. It was no forced assent to doctrines bowel:
pure, no compulsory attendance upon services however esq _
lent, that was now required in those who sought to be the
objects of education in the corporation schools. (Hear,
hear.) The door was now thrown open to all except th°se
who refused to read the Bible in common with their fellow;
Christians. (Hear.) When he said that none were excluded
but those who by this refusal excluded themselves, could be
say more to shew the truly tolerant system adopted? (Heart
hear, hear.) Could the door he opened wider? (Hear, hear.
Could more be done for the sake of peace and charity.
(Hear, hear.) " Yes," said Mr. Blackburn, echoed
and, as he seemed to think, jockeyed by Mr. Lawrence,
" you may admit the children of Roman Catholics and dis-
senters to secular instruction." He (Mr. North) presumed
that, in fact, though not in form, they were discussing the
two propositions. To his view both were equally pernicia°_,a
(hear); but if lie were asked to which he was least opposel;
he should unhesitatingly say, " to that of Mr. Blackburn.
At all events, his had this merit—it was straightforward and
natural ; whereas he hardly dared trust himself to characterise
the other. (Ilear, hear.) To turn, then, to Mr. Blackburn a
motion ; and he would begin with respectfully asking Lim
what its object was? He could not—
The MAYOR.--It is my duty to remind you that you are
now trespassing a little : Mr. Blackburn's motion is not at
present before the council.
Mr. Norma.—As he had said before, in point of form it
probably was not before the council ; he admitted the objec-

tion in point of form, and therefore he would now turn to
the amendment. (Hear.)
Mr. BLACKBURN begged permission to say one word. It
was his intention to withdraw his motion, and merge the
whole question in the amendment, which he conceived was
substantially the same as the motion. (Cheers.) lie sub-
mitted, however, to his worship's judgment in the matter
whether it was proper; but, as far as he was personally Con-
cerned, he had not the slightest objection to Mr. North
commenting upon his (Mr. Blackburn's) motion. _ _

The MAroa said, then there was nothing before the
council but the amendment of Mr. G. H. Lawrence.

Mr. NORTH was extremely happy to hear Mr. Blackburn
make this announcement. The general principle of admit-
ting children of Roman Catholics and dissenters to secular
instruction only was common to both these motions; and he
would therefore now ask the gentleman who moved the amend-
ment, what he could expect as the issue of such a proposition ?
lie could not expect, and he would almost say he could not wish,
to succeed ; for he (Mr. North) was quite sure that success
there, in that room, would only place the unfortunate objects
of all their discussion at a still greater distance than they now
were from the benefit of admission into the schools, by ex-
posing them more ostensibly than they now were to the in-
terdict of their priests. (Hear, hear.)
The NIATott begged pardon for the interruption ; but it
Was still his duty to inform Mr. North that he was out of
order. (Cries of " No, no," and " Yes, yes.") He under-
stood Mr. North to be now discussing the merits of the
motion which stood upon the paper as to be proposed by Mr.
Blackburn. Now that was not before the council.
Mr. Nor= explained, that he had distinctly said he was
not discussing that motion. He admitted the error in point
of form, but the principle, he contended, was common to
both.

The MAvon.—You are not only wrong in point of form,
but you are substantially wrong, because you are speaking
hOW upon a motion which may come on hereafter. Do I
understand that you are discusing the subject of Mr. Black-
burn's motion ?
Mr. NonTn.—Certainly not.

Mr. LACE said he had heard Mr. North say distinctly that
he should confine himself to Mr. Lawrence's amendment.
The MAYOR.—Then it is a misunderstanding, and I beg

Pardon

Mr. Coormt said, Mr. Blackburn could not withdraw his
motion without the consent of the council.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.—Yes he can, because it is not
before us yet.
Mr. BLACKBURN said he hid withdrawn his motion,
because, as he humbly submitted, the motion and the amend-
ment were precisely the same. He might be wrong, but he
really thought they involved exactly the same principle.
Sir Thos. BKANcraat said it was nut necessary to go into
that question.

Mr. NORTH had said in substance that if the present
amendment, to say nothing of the motion, were carried, it
could do nu good to the objects who were intended to receive
the benefit, for this reason—that it would eNpose them more
to the obstruction of the priests, who would never, under

Roman Catholic children
It was with reference, di-
!ation Committee had, very
:I, discontinued the obnoxious
the comtiarativc number of Protestants

any pretence whatever
to attend the schools
rectly to this object t
Judiciously as it appe
practice of reporting
and Roman Catholics—
Mr. EAULIC.—It is not yet confirmed, Sir

The Mayor..—Order, order!
Mr. NORTIL—Very well, it was not confirmed, but it was
recommended. (Hear, hear.) It was no answer to him to
say that the priests did allow the attendance of the children
at the schools under the late system, because it was unde-
niable that under that system the schools was essenthlly

Roman Catholic and not Protestant. (Hear, hear, hear.)
The Edueation Committee were of opinion that to inculcate
mere secular instruction, without religious knowledge, would
make them the vehicles of a curse and not a blessing ; and
surely all history, all experience, and even reason itself testi-
fied to this truth. (Hear.) NI- hat could avail all other know-
ledge if they taught not how to live and how to die? (Hear,
hear.) What was such teaching but to give a power
without the means of directing it? (Hear, hear.) What
was it, but to build and rig the ship, and set every sail, and
yet leave out the rudder? (Applause.) What as it, but to
add a giant's strength to the drunkard's folly ? What was it, but
to put arms into a maniac's hands ? (Loud cheers.) Why, in
their case, the folly would be greater than even doing all these,
for this wretched system would, he verily believed, not only ruin
its own direct objects, but be most perilous by its example to
others. Let him suppose this amendment carried ; let him
suppose the remonstrances of the committee silenced by their
dismissal—for they could only be so silenced—all minor diffi-
culties got over, and the new plan in operation. Let him
then suppose a boy religiously educated pointing to the no-
religion class, and to ask his master this question—" Why do
you so carefully instruct us in the principles of our duty, and
in the religion of our Bible, if these, my companions, can do
without either ?" Was there any one i❑ the council who did
not see the inevitable inference from such a question ? Was
there one among them who would not shrink from a rebuke
so bitter, so withering, so unanswerable as that? Why, if
they were to propagate this wretched system, the very
children they taught would laugh them to scorn—(hear,
hear) ;—nay, if they held their peace, " the stones of the
wall would cry out, and the beam out of the timber would
answer it." (Cheers.) If anything could be devised which,
without compromising principle, could give them better than
by their own plan the hope of attracting Roman Catholic
children to the schools, God knew that no one would be so
delighted to adopt it as himself, for truly he had no prejudice
against them to overcome ; on the contrary, much as he
abominated their superstitions and deplored their errors, he
could never forget that with them they held all the
essential doctrines of Christianity (hear, hear) ; and that
there was much to be revered, both in their worship and
practice. (Hear, hear.) He belonged to a religious party
who were accused of leaning too much to Romanism ; and
though he knew the accusation to he groundless, and though
he believed, on the contrary, that party were the best bul-
wark the church ever had, against Romanism and all other
error; yet for once he hailed the accusation, for it might at
least serve his turn in this respect. that it would relieve him
from all imputation of uncharitableness towards the Roman
Catholics. (Hear.) Sincerely did he wish they were as honest
as we were, by repudiating the aid of political dissenters with
whom they could have very little feeling in common. (Cheers.)
Thus far he had addressed, and no doubt very fruitlessly,
those who were always opposed to him upon this and most
other public principles ; but as respected them, he should
have done all he wished and intended if they did him but the

bare justice of believing that he acted conscientiously.
( Hear, bear.) Something, however, he would say before he
sat down, to certain members of his own party, who, as he
presumed to think, from a mistaken sense of liberality, and
without due reflection, were wavering upon this momentous
question : and were half expected, in the struggle. to side
with the common enemy—at least, to the extent of gracing
their defeat. He did not know that he could better illus-
trate his meaning than by referring to one or two of the argu-
ments by which, both in that room and elsewhere, he had
heard these sadly loose and unsettled notions justified. The
first was so singular a fallacy that he (the Mayor) would
scarcely believe, as the tact was, that it was the lapse of an
acute mind and an eminent man, strong in the good opinion
of his fellow-townsmen, and whom, therefore, he (Mr.
North) was the more anxious to answer. That gentle-
man had said in his (Mr. North's) hearing, " I go the
whole length of the Education Committee ; I believe that
all they have done I would myself do, exactly the same,
if the question was the education of my own children at my
own expense ; but, as a member of the corporation, I hesitate
to act upon the same rule with the public purse." Now,
that gentleman, evidently acting most conscientiously, did
not see, and his might be the case of many—that no man had
two duties, the one public and the other private. (Cheers.)
On the contrary, the most pure and elevated exercise of
public duty must always be to act in office under the direct
influence of all those principles, and with that strict re-
ference to conscience which is our guide in private life.
(Cheers.) And if our office were an elective one the duty
was even more stringent upon us, for then it was obvious
that we were elected upon the faith and trust, and with the
very intent that we should act in office upon precisely the
same principles the exhibition of which in private was the
cause of our election. (Cheer.) Any other course ap-
peared to him a sort of fraud upon the constituency. (Hear,
hear.) Another argument urged both in that room and else-
where ad nauseam, was this—" Surely you may sacrifice
something even of principle, rather than see all these poor
destitute children let loose upon the world." But here again
the whole questio❑ was begged twice over. In the first
place he denied the fact ; he did not believe there were those
crowds which were stated of Roman Catholic children run-
ning about the streets ; on the contrary, lie believed they
were reasonably well taken care of by those of their own per-
suasion—and if they were not it was their own fault, not the
fault ofthe council. (Cheers. But suppose the evil to he as vast as
it was alleged to be, he firmly believed that it would not he dimi-
nished but rather increased by the success of the amendment.
(Cheers.) Surely gentlemen calling themselves tories—he
should have said, for once, conservatives, as more appli-
cable to his present subject, but somehow or other that
bastard word always stuck in his throat (laughter)—surely
he said, gentlemen professing those principles would not de-
ceive themselves, strengthen their opponents, divide their
own party, and " make shipwreck" of all that was valuable
in their public profession, by voting upon such mise-
hie sophistries as those in favour of the amendment.
(Cheers.) If they were inclined to do so, he had but one
more argument to press upon them, and as it was the
unworthiest it should be the last. Let them beware of again
meeting their constituencies ! (Loud cheers and some
laughter.) Some of them might love martyrdom for its own
sake, but which he did not—more of them, with him, might
think that in happy as well as in evil times, " the post of
honour is the private station," and therefore be indifferent.
But none of us liked to be treated with contempt, or
reproached for broken faith. (Cheers.) Good almost always
came out of evil; and out of that mass of evil, the Reform
Act, some good might be extracted. (Hear.) And surely
it was a refreshing spectacle a new and a most
encouraging sign of the times, to see at the last election two
constituencies rejecting their members because they had
broken faith with them upon a religious question. (Hear,
and loud cheers.) He had now done, and to one and all he
sincerely apologised for having obtruded himself so long upon
their time ; but his heart had long been deeply engaged
with the subject, and it was difficult to restrain the feel-
ings.which ran away with him. (Applause.) Earnestly did
he wish that they could all regard that subject with his feel-
ings, retaining their own better powers of judgment. (Hear.)
He could not adequately express his sense of the importance,
the solemnity of the duty which they were now about to
discharge. They were going to decide between truth and

error—(hear,)—between a hollow, specious pretension to
philanthropy on the one side, and the demands of duty,
under the unerring guidance of religious principle, on the
other. (Hear, hear, hear.) Could they hesitate? Strengthen,
then, he beseeched them, the hands of the Education Com-
mittee in the sacred trust they had confided to them, by
affirming the proposition of peace and usefulness with which
they come before them to-day—a proposition most certainly
true, because drawn from the very book of light and life itself
—a proposition which was in the name of humanity charitable,
and_ n the name of GOD, just. (Great cheering.) .

Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE wishe'd to say one word in ex-
planation, just to purge himself from the charge of want of
courtesy towards the Education Committee in having brought
forward the amendment without giving that body notice of
it. He was not present on the occasion when the committee
agreed to that " manifesto." That certainly was an omission
which he could not avoid ; but the moment he heard of it—
the moment he saw it—he communicated in writing to the
chairman that he should feel it his duty to bring forward an
amendment. He really thought, therefore, that he was
justified in the course he had taken. Then, the honourable
gentleman (Mr. North) had asked him to retire from the
Education Committee. Now, it was very well known to
many how anxious he was, when he was appointed, to be re-
lieved from that committee; he told them at the time what
they knew very well, that he differed from them ; and he
differed from them as much to-day as he did last year. He
thought a little relaxation—a little compromise—necessary
then, and he thought a little relaxation and a little compromise
necessary still; but he begged to say that he did not intend
to retire from that committee until the council should be
pleased to compel him to retire. He had been one of those
members of the committee who had attended to the schools
personally, and he had done more, he was justified in saying,
at the South School, in the way of attendance,. than any
other member of the council. Ile knew of bow little value
those services might be ; vet still, having rendered them, un-
less there wa. an express vote of the council, urging him to
retire, he • should nut feel himself justttted in withdrawing
from the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. EVANS said there was one consolation, from that la-
chrymose, laboured speech of Mr. North, which had threat-
ened every instant to rise into a psalm, that it smelled so
much of the lamp, and appeared to have occupied so much
of what was no doubt valuable professional time, that it was
not likely its author could afford to bestow upon them many

more such inflictions. As the speaker had said of Mr.
Hornby's speech,. it was full of sickly sentiment. When it
was asserted that the schools bad been filling, he would ask
how many had been emptied ? One large school, they had
learned, had been given up. Why was it given up? To save
money. Mr. North had echoed the old cry that the schools
were open to all who came. This reminded him of the old
song of Mrs. Bond, who went to the pond and invited the
ducks to come and be killed. The Catholics were with-
held by the principles of their religion, from sending their
children to the schools conducted on the present system.
And their religion was the religion of our great and good
allies, who were formerly so much lauded. Mr. North was
a professional gentleman, but lie never said one word of go-
%eminent having acknowledged the rights of the Catholics,
of t heir having conferred upon them all the civil and religious
privileges possessed by others. Gentlemen who would deny
these privileges were going against the laws of the realm as
%yea as against those of humanity. Mr. Evans went on to
contend against the alleged danger of giving knowledge to
the poor. Crimes, he said, were committed by the ignorant.
11 e was assured that every fanatic and ignorant speech uttered,
either there or in parliament, helped the liberal cause, and,
therefore, lie was well pleased with the address of the member
for Ever ton Ward, at the last council. That gentleman com-
menced by saying that he had intended to give a silent vote.
Personalities were repudiated, yet the late members of the
Education Committee were stigmatised as having introduced
abomination and idolatry ! Was not this personality ? The
Corporation Schools stood in high relief on the canvas, as
the work of the only community which repudiated the laws
of parliament and the will of the country. Lord Stanley was
the author of this system, which was called abominable and
idolatrous. He said that the system was adapted to Ireland,
but not to England. His acute mind was not directed to
Liverpool, or he would have seen that Liverpool waa in the
same pasition as Ireland. The poverty of the Catholics had
been urged, but he had frequently shown that this was their
title-deed, and that this was shat gave them a right to
education gratis. The schools were not open to the rich
any more than the workhouses. It was impossible to bind
men down to one religion, though that was what had been
sought to he obtained; many shades of religious difference
were necessary. and had been indeed ordained, as they all
inculcated the same morality, in order to promote a healthy
competition.
r. Sn EPPARD felt, that under the circumstances in which
he had been returned to the town-council, he could not give
a silent vote upon the momentous question now before the
council. lie should not, however, detain them long, seeing
that many of the gentlemen around him were anxious to go
to the vote. Conciliation and concession had been again
brought forward in support of the amendment of Mr. G. H.
Lawrence ; but he would ask, in all humility as an indivi-
dual, but boldly as one of the representatives of the people
who bad sent him there, what had the Protestants of this
mighty empire gained by following that most mistaken line
of policy? (Hear.) Had they not in Ireland conceded first
4:60,000 of church cess ? Had they not next conceded
£130,000 per annum of the church's tithes in that country?
Had they not further, at the suggestion of Lord Stanley,
struck oil. ten of the bishoprics of that land ? (Applause.)
lle (Mr. Sheppard) well recollected what Lord Holland said
in the year 1827, in writing to Dr. Shuttleworth, the warden
of New College, Oxford :—" You ask (said his lordship) if
the Roman Catholics would be contented, or promise to be
contented, with being placed on the same footing with other
dissenters. Again, but will they abandon all designs of sub-
verting the Protestant church; and will they say so dis•
tinctly ? To this I can answer, that for these last twenty years
they have been saying so distinctly, solemnly, and, I believe,
sincerely, in every petition, in every declaration, in every
oath, and in evidence upon oath before parliament."
He (Mr. Sheppard) would now read the oath they swore on
going into parliament :
I do swear that I will defend, to the utmost of my power,
the settlement of property within this realm, as established
by law; and I do hereby disclaim, disavow, and solemnly
abjure any intention to subvert the present church establish-
ment, as settled by law, within this realm ; and I do solemnly
swear that I never will exercise any privilege to which I am
or may become entitled to disturb or weaken the protestant
religion or protestant government in the United Kingdom."
Mr. PRIESTLEY asked the Mayor whether Mr. Sheppard
was in order in reading these documents?
The MAYOR replied that he was perfectly in order.
Mr. SHEPPARD would now turn to an assertion of Mr.
Sheil when lie entered parliament in the year 1825. That
gentleman repeatedly spoke and voted, both in and out of
parliament, for the repeal of the union and for the appropria-
tion of the property of the church to other than its legitimate
purposes. On the 23d of July, 1835, he spoke in parliament
as to that church, according to the corrected report of his
speech, as follows :
" The church on which a faction fattens, by which a nation
starves—the church from which no imaginable good can
flow, but evil after evil in such black and continuous abun-
dance has been for centuries, and is to this day, poured out
—the church by which religion has been retarded, morality
has been vitiated, atrocity has been engendered.' Mr. Sheil,
on the 15th of December, 1835, addressed an appeal to the
people of Tipperary,' urging attention to the registration of
voters. He says—' I appeal to all, but above all to the clergy.
Priests of Tipperary, on you I call at this juncture. Invoke
your flocks, and tell them that at this great crisis everything
is at stake. Let them pour in their notices, let them appear
in hundreds at the quarter sessions, and let the conserva-
tives see that the virtue of the people of Tipperary is not to
be corrupted—that their courage is not to be daunted, and
that their strength can never be subdued.'"
The council would next permit him to read the following ex-
tract from a speech made by the Rev. Mr. Hughes, a Roman
Catholic priest, who addressed a meeting in the town of
Clanrnorris, county of Mayo, in September 1840, and which
the Mayo Mercury stated was most numerously and respect-
ably attended. The Rev. Gentleman was reported to have
said :—" I have to inform every Protestant in the land, that
no Roman Catholic who is conscientiously attached to his
religion, from the king to the peasant, or from the pope to
the humblest curate in the church, can ever lose sight of
the establishment of the ascendancy of their religion."
(Hear, hear.) Now he would ask the council whether such
statements as those did not make it incumbent upon us, the
Protestants of this mighty empire, numbering twenty-eight
millions, to stand by the Protestant clergy, and assist them
by every legal and constitutional means, in giving to the
rising generation a sound scriptural education ? (Cheers.) In
corroboration of what he had stated, he begged to refer the
council, with great respect, to what the dignitaries of our own
church, in Ireland, had stated on the subject of the school
question. He need not tell the enlightened Englishmen
whom he saw around him, that the churches of England and
Ireland were by the act of union made properly and pre-
cisely the same; they had the same rites, the same pri-
viliges, and the same immunities, He would here notice
what the Primate of Ireland bad said on this subject. In a
charge delivered by his grace the Archbishop of Armagh to
the clergy at the visitation of his diocese, on the 15th of Sep-
teniber, 1842, at the close of his 20th year of presiding over
the diocese, the venerable prelate said—
" The schools which we and our predecessors in the mi-
nistry of the church established in our parishes, were founded
on this great leading principle, that religious instruction was
the chief and essential part of education, which ought not
therefore to be separated from it." Again :—" But, at the
same time, making allowance, as far as in our power, for the
conscientious scruples of those who dissented from our com-
munion, we opened our schools to all who chose to attend
them, provided they would receive instruction, in common
with our children, in the Word of God. Had we allowed
them to attend in our schools without receiving any religious
instruction whatever, we should have violated the great prin-
ciple on which our schools were founded, namely, that in-
struction in religion is the chief and essential part of educa-
tion, and ought not to be separated from it."
In the year 1831 government proposed in Ireland a new
scheme of national education ; and upon the working of that
system, hear what the venerable Archbishop said :
" The Established Church could not approve of the na-
tional system ; they had strong objections to it. A child
might be sent to the schools connected with it, and receive
secular instruction, while at the same time he received no
religious instruction at all. A volume of scripture extracts
had been prepared for the use of the schools, but no child
was compelled to read it; these extracts were in themselves
faulty, and such as the church could not sanction."
As to the working of the system in Ireland, the Archbishop
of Armagh proved, by reference to returns recently made to
government, that—
" There was less union in the schools now than before the
national system was established. The Protestant children
were rarely found in the national schools. In the whole of
the county of Cork there were not ten Protestants attending
them, and most other places were in nearly the same circutn-
stances. The Church Education Society had established
their schools for the purpose of giving religious instruction
to the children belonging to the Established Church, as well
as to all others who might choose to attend, and they had
been successful. A large number of Roman Catholic dis-
senting children attended these schools."
He now called attention to the language held by the Lord
Bishop of London, at a public meeting on the 28th May,
1839 :

" I need not," said his lordship, "employ many argu-
ments in confutation of those (if such there be) who hold
that religion is not an important part of education. There
are few who are found to avow this principle in terms. We
have to deal with opponents of a different stamp. The per-
sons with whom we, at this time of day, have chiefly to con-
tend, are those who, whilst they admit, in words, that
religion is an important and advantageous element of educa-
tion for the people, yet do not speak of it as if it were
essential—as if it were the ' one thing needful.' I allude to
persons who have been exceedingly active during the last
three or four years, in disseminating their doctrines through-
out the country. I speak of persons who, when they would
construct a system of popular education, divide it into two
different and distinct branches, the one secular, the other re-
ligious ; making the one the substance of education, and the
other its accident. I speak of persons who would provide
one uniform system of secular instruction for the people,
leaving the people to superadd (if they desire it) the religious
part ; or they themselves will provide a system of religious
teaching, in some cases uniform, even as the barren surface
of the desert: is uniform ; in other cases taught with such
vagueness and generality, as to deprive it of those specific
qualities, which make it an instrument of sanctification and
of truth ; or, still further, leaving it to the casual and the
desultory inculcation of teachers, who are to bear no part in
the main process of education. Against all projects of this
kind we strenuously contend, and we hold, that education
for the people of a Christian country should be an education
uniform and undivided ; that is to say, uniform as to its dis-
tinguishing principles, and its great leading features, though
not as to all its minute details ; an education, of which in-
struction in all those branches of knowledge which fit man
for the duties and occupations of active life, should form an
important part, but which should make ' the one thing need-
ful' to be instruction in the will of God, and in the means
of its performance ; the training of an accountable being,
destined for immortality by ways and methods of God's own
appointment, for the enjoyment of his glorious inheritance.
Entirely to separate religious instruction from all other kinds
of instruction—to make the latter the substance and the basis
of education, the one subject of common consent, the one ob-
ject of common interest; and to thrust the former (re-
ligion) into bye places and corners, leaving it to be (as I
before said) inculcated by the desultory efforts of separate
teachers, not bearing a part in the main process of edu-
cation ; what is this, I would ask, but to deprive religion
of her due honour, to degrade her from her just supre-
macy ? what is it but to depreciate the worth, to disparage
the excellence of ' the pearl of great price,' and to teach
those, who are the objects of instruction, to regard the best,
the most valuable instruction of all, with indifference, if not
with contempt ? No ; we hold that religion, the religion of
Christ Jesus, is to be intimately interwoven with the whole
tissue of education; that it is to be the one guiding, regula-
ting, sanctifying principle—that around which the whole sys-
tem turns, moving in beautiful uniformity and order, each
luminary of knowledge and of truth revolving in its own
proper orbit, religion being the centre, from which a genial
and holy light may be diffused throughout every part. We
protest then against the doctrines, and we are bound to re-
sist the efforts of those associated friends of education, to
whom I have before made allusion, who argue for the entire
exclusion of religion from the regular cycle of intellectual
instruction. We protest against the objects of all those who
assert (for it has been asserted in express terms), that the
exclusion of the Bible from what they term the secular
school, is a sine (lucid non to the establishment of any gene-
ral system of national education."
One extract more, and he had done. The London Times
of December Bth, 1842, remarking upon the refusal of go-
vernment to accede to the wishes of the Lord Primate and
clergy of Ireland, respecting a change in the national system
of education in that country, said :
" This is, indeed, that very system, and nothing less,
which in 1839 Lord Stanleydenounced as ' one which would,
however unjustly, induce a general belief. that in the minds
of the legislature, it is a matter of perfect indifference in

what creed the population of this country shall be brought
up ; which would speedily sap the foundations of all faith;
and, what constituted, in his estimation, the strongest ground
of objection to the measure, would gradually lead to general
scepticism, and from general scepticism to national in-
fidelity.'"

He thanked them for the attention with which they had heard
the remarks he had deemed it his duty to offer upon the sub-
ject now under discussion. He trusted he had confined his
observations within proper bounds ; if he bad not done so,
no doubt the Mayor would have deemed it his duty to have
called him to order. Ile should conclude by asserting, that
he had been returned to the council chamber unfettered and
unpledged. (Cheers.) The constituency of North Toxteth
Ward knew well his opinions upon the school question.
They returned him by a most triumphant majority, and he
deemed it his duty to declare, that under all the circum-
stances of the case, he believed that the system carried out
at present by the Education Committee to be the best, and
therefore he should support it, and give most decidedly his
vote against the amendment of Mr. G. H. Lawrence.
(Cheers.)
Mr. BLACKBURN, in a speech of nearly two hours length;
supported the amendment. He commenced by complaining
of the mode in which Mr. G. H. Lawrence had taken the
measure out of his hands ; but, he said, the question was the
same as would have been before the council if he had intro-
duced his motion, and this had been brought forward as an
amendment. He was glad, however, that this course had been
taken, and he willingly withdrew his motion. He objected
to the pledge that had been spoken of, that parents should
take children to their own placesW worship. He grounded
all his arguments on this subject on the fact that the children
of all denominations might claim an equality of instruction
as a civil right. They had not the power or authority to
dictate what religion should be taught ; to admit one party
and prevent others from coming in ; nor was it competent in
them to hinder individuals from receiving religious instruc-
tion according to their own views. If he understand cor-
rectly what was stated at the last council, it was said that the
parents were required to take the children to their own places
of worship on the Sunday. In the case of the children of
Catholics, this was taking upon themselves directly to sup-
port Pouery. (No, no.)
Mr. SANDS said, at the proper time he would give an ex-
planation of this. He was in error in making a statement to
this effect at the last meeting.

Mr. BLACKBURN resumed. He opposed the proposition I
of the committee. He dissented from the tenets of the Ro-
man Catholic Church, as contrary to the Word of God, and
dangerous to the souls of men, and he would not give them
any sanction. He would ask if the children of Protestants
had any privileges now which they had not under the former
system. ? He explained the former system in operation at the
schools, and contended that conservative gentlemen were not
correct in supposing that the whole Protestant body was
opposed to that system. The Catholic had the same right
to prefer the Douay version of the Bible that he (Mr. Black-
burn) had to prefer the authorised version ; the same right
to punish him (Mr. Blackburn) for his preference that he had
to punish the Catholic for his preference. The children were
not excluded; but they were not permitted to enter the
the schools merely because they were not permitted to tram-
ple on the consciences of others. The party who had intro-
duced the present system might boast that they had swept
idolatry out of the schools ; hut it was the proud boast of the
reform party that they had swept persecution out of the
schools. There was then a large attendance of Protestant
children, and parents took their children in such numbers
that they could not be all acct mmodated. There was no-
thing inconsistent in the proposition of the member for West
Derby to give the Catholics a secular education ; and the
system could be arranged, by separating the children during
the time devoted to the religious instruction of the Protes-
tants. It would be perfectly well understood by the latter,
that it was not from any indifference in the teachers to the
religious welfare of the Catholic children, but that the pa-
rents of the latter did not approve of their joining others in
worship. Dr. Cooke, an Orangeman, a tory, and a member
of the Synod of Ulster, was an advocate of a similar system,
had joined in framing a similar system, which was now in
extensive operation throughout Ulster and worked well, and
the application to government for the formation of that sys-
tem was approved by three distinguished prelates of the
English Church, who said that no Protestant could reason-
ablyobject to it. He noticed Sir James Graham's exposition
of theplan which government had pledged itself to introduce
into the parish schools, and contended that it was
precisely the system now taught. The committee
had taken great pains to put down this system here, but in
the immediate neighbourhood it would start up like Banquo's
ghost,' " with twenty mortal gashes on its brow to push
them from the stools," and it would start up too, established
by those Conservative ministers. They would soon find them-
selves in a minority, for the government was decidedly against
them. One gentleman was horror-struck when he saw his
(Mr. B's) proposition in the notice-paper. Let them look
this goblin in the face ! The fact was they averred all the
other blessings of education would go for nothing if the
children were not allowed prayer in the morning and even-
ing, and the reading of the authorised version of the Bible.
Could any man say that a child would be better without any
instruction at all, than with merely the secular instruction
which was proposed to be given ? He would admire the chi-
valry of the man who would stand up and say so.
Mr. HODGSON.-1 say so.
Mr. BLACKBURN.-1 thank you, sir. I admire your chi-
valry. He next drew a picture of a child left to itself to learn
all the depravity of the evil companions which it would pick
up in the streets, and to imbibe wickedness amongst the pro-
fane at the docksides. After showing what such a child
would be likely to turn out when grown up to be an ignorant
man, with nothing but animal instincts and passions, -he con-
trasted it against another picture of a child educated as they
wished to educate the children of the Catholics. Religious
instruction would not be neglected, but in the very les-
sons there would necessarily be much religious truth taught,
and much religious principle inculcated. If they could not
do all the good they desired, let them at least do all the good
they could, The question might be asked would the Catho-
lics attend? It had been said they would not, but he had
put himself in communication with the Catholic priests, and
he was assured they would. He concluded by making an
appeal to the council in fauour of the amendment. He agreed,
however, with Mr. Turner in anticipating present failure and
ultimate triumph.
Mr. SAMUEL Flonsir commenced by observing, that ho 1
begged to assure the council that on ordinary occasions he
should ever be unwilling to trespnss at any great length on j
their attention, and should most gladly abridge any observa-
tions which in future he should feel it his duty to make, lest
they should militate against the convenience of gentlemen,
to whom time was necessarily valuable. The common routine
of business brought before the council might in general be
adjourned or delayed, and they might amend their former
decisions, without subjecting themselves to the imputation
of inconsistency, or without the public business materially
suffering by the delay. But the question then before the
council was of an extraordinary nature, and formed an ex-
ception to the general rule. It was of paramount impor-
tance, and had agitated the town so long, and with such
fearful violence, that it became the solemn duty of every
member of that body, honestly, openly, and fearlessly, to
express his sentiments upon it; to vindicate his opinions,
and to justify his vote; and lie thought that every consti-
tuency had a right to demand that their various representa-
tives gave utterance to the opinions of the electors as well as
their own, and that they did not shrink from a candid and
fearless avowal of those opinions which they were sent into
that room to express. (Hear, hear.) It was his desire to
argue the question in the fairest and most open manner, and
with courteous deference for the opinions of those gentlemen
who differed from him, and who were, no doubt, as consci-
entiously convinced that they were right, as he, on the
contrary, was conscientiously convinced that they were
wrong. Disguise it as they might, however, this ques-
tion involved a most vital principle, for it was part and
parcel of that mighty struggle which ever did exist ; and
which ever will exist, between truth and error. It was a part
too of that struggle which ever did, and ever would exist, be-
tween the reformed Church of England, and the unreformed,
and the unreformable Church of Rome. (Loud cries of
" Hear.") He, therefore, would not condescend to debate
it on the low and swampy ground of expediency ; but he
should treat it as be had observed, as involving a most im-
portant principle. No man could debate it as its importance
deserved, unless he could divest it of the semblance of per-
sonal triumph or party victory : and, unless he could view it
on the lofty ground of its own intrinsic merits. (Hear, hear.)
It had been looked upon as a triumph, that Mr. Blackburn
had again been returned to council, to astonish, as it was said,
thelbigots and intolerants. (Laughter.) He for one did not re-
gret the circumstance, because, in the continued discussion
of the question. truth would be elicited, and would rise on
the surface. That gentleman, in the spirit of chivalry, of
which he had himself just spoken, and like a knight-errant
of old, had boldly placarded on the walls of the town, that he
should never cease to denounce the system of scriptural in:

struction at present in use; and, although he (Mr. Holme)
would not use such harsh language as denunciation, yet he
begged to tell him that he should beready at any time to
join issue with him on this question ; and, he should always
be ready to defend that system now in operation, based upon,
and interwoven as it was, with the word of the Most High.
(Hear.) He had no desire to introduce theological topics
into that room, although he was of opinion that to place
the question on a proper basis, some reference to it was
necessary. He trusted that he was not addressing one gen-
tleman who did not cheerfully admit that the Bible was a
divine revelation, because it would be a gratuitous insult to
every man who had entered that chamber making a Christian
declaration, if he could for a moment even, suppose the con-
trary. What, then, did they find in the Bible on this sub-

jest? Did they not find that, in the Jewish dispensation, it
was read one-fourth part of the day, not to a section merely,
but to the whole of the people? Was it not to be made
known to all, whether they would hear or whether they
would forbear? Were not teachers, masters, and fathers
commanded to make it known to their children and de-

pendents, not only in their private, but in their judicial and
relative capacity? Were we not told that all Scripture was
of divine inspiration, and was profitable for all? Were we
not commanded to carry it into all the world, and make it
known to every creature? And was not a fearful denuncia-
tion held out to any man who should presume to add to, or
take from, the words of that book? It appeared, therefore,
to him, that the question resolved itself into this :—Was the
Bible true, or was it false ? If we believe it to be true, let
us act up to its dictates ; but if we do not believe it, then let
us at once honestly avow our disbelief, and cast it out of our
schools altogether, for that is the only consistent course to
adopt. If a monarch issued a proclamation to the whole of
his people, and any man, or set of men, to please their own
fancy, suppressed the whole or part of such proclamation,
would it not be a fraud upon the monarch who issued it, as
well as upon those to whom it was sent ? But the presump-
tion was increased when it was remembered that in this case
the proclamation was from the Eternal ; and he solemnly
declared, that he dare not lend himself in his legislative
capacity to do that which he dare not do in his private
capacity; and he should be guilty of a lie to his own con-
science if, with this belief, he supported the amendment of
Mr. George Hall Lawrence. (Hear.) If man was merely an

intellectual being, and religion itself was fabulous, then he
would admit that the cultivation of the intellect was of para-
mount importance; but if they admitted his immortality—
if they admitted his eternal destiny—they must also admit
that his education, to be complete, must be identified with
the things of eternity, as well as of time. (Cheers.) He
knew it was urged, " You have nothing to do between man
and his maker, and you violate a man's conscience by forcing
down that which is unpalatable." Then why is our ecclesi-
astical establishment a recognised part of the constitution,
and why, as a nation, do we profess any religion at all ?
Why does the government provide for religious instruction,
and sanction the erection of places of worship ? But lie
denied the premises. It was the duty of the state, in its
legislative capacity, to provide for the religious education of
the people—to stand in loco parenlis to those who could not
provide it for themselves ; because the public would be bene-
fitted by the inculcatio❑ of such knowledge—because the
education of the present generation was to stamp the cha-
racter of its successor ; and if the government paid more
attention to this, and would aid in establishing schools, such
as the old Scriptural grammar schools, they would have
need of fewer gaols. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Birkett and
others.) But he contended that the Education Committee
did not violate any man's conscience, more than God him-
self did, who had commanded that his word should be
made known to all; and lie could not join those who went
contrary to that command. They provided a sound and
excellent education, based as all education ought to be, on
the Word of God—they threw open the doors for the admis-
sion of all—they invited all to enter, and if parties from pre-
judice refused to avail themselves of such education, they had
at least done their duty, and the blame of rejection must
rest on them and not on the council. They surely ought not
to be required to lower their standard to suit the prejudices
of every man who differed from them, because that was ask-
ing them (the council) to violate their consciences to satisfy
the scruples of others, and they would fall into the very error

which they called on them to avoid. They might rest as-
sured that if they departed from the present system, they
would get to sea without a chart, a compass, or a rudder, and
education itself would eventually founder in the ocean of la-
t'tudinarianism and uncertainty. (Loud cries of " Bear.")
So far as he knew, the only malcontents were the Roman
Catholics. But let them extend their ideas. Society was
composed of others as well as they. When the late Educa-
tion Committee was in power, and introduced the Irish ex-
tracts for general use, how could they consistently ask the
Jew to subscribe to the New Testament extracts? The
chartist and the socialist, what did they do with them ? God
forbid that lie should ever defend their doctrines ; but as
much had been said about tests, it might happen that there
were men amongst these who were conscientious, and he pre-
sumed that in their case, their consciences must have been
violated by refusing to countenance their pernicious doc-
trines. Ile would give a familiar instance, that those who
decried tests sometimes applied them, and, indeed, he was
not frightened by such a bugbear as the word test, for
men were obliged to resort to tests in almost every transac-
tion of their lives. When the first council was chosen after
the passing of the reform act, it became their duty to
choose a number of gentlemen to act as magistrates.
Now, he thought that every candid mind would admit,
that the seat of justice ought to be placed above all
political considerations—(hear, hear) ;—but what did the
gentlemen in power then do ? They selected men who were
all of one political creed, and they excluded all who differed
from them in opinion. Their political opinions alone were made
the test by which they were judged, and by that test gentle-
men were excluded from occupying the magisterial chair.
(Hear.) The same test was applied in the selection of
aldermen ; and yet he hesitated not to say, that the town of
Liverpool contained numbers of gentlemen, equally respect-
able, equally intelligent, and eqnally fitted to fill the offices
of either the magistracy or the aldermanship, as any of those
who had been selected, so much for the consistency of those
who talked about tests. (Laughter.) Let us, however, be just,
as well as generous. Have the poor Protestants of the town
no consciences to be consulted on this subject? (Hear, hear.)
They seemed to have been forgotten entirely. In the name
of his poor Protestant brethren, a loyal and maligned body
of men, he protested against the alteration of the present
Scriptural system, not, he solemnly believed, to please the
great body of his poor Roman Catholic townsmen—many of
whom would gladly send their children to the schools, if they
were permitted to exercise their own discretion—but to please
a knot of priests who had, lie doubted not, received their
instructions hot from the Propaganda, an institution which
had done more to hoodwink mankind, to fetter the energies,
and to enslave the human mind than any temporal despot
had been able to accomplish, (hear, hear,) and he asserted
that it was a violation of the conscience of the poor Protes-
tants to be compelled to send their children to schools where
the Bible was considered so unimportant that it might be
dispensed with, leaving their children to draw those infer-
ences. which children are quick enough at perceiving, and
creating in them a distaste for religion, by finding others
possessing exclusive advantages not conceded to them, of
coming half-an-hour later arid retiring earlier, and the poor
Protestants might justly say, as it was said of old. "So
shall your children make our children cease from fearing the
Lord." (Hear.) But he contended that if they were to le-
gislate according to the wishes of the people, the mart was
inconsistent who admitted the premises, and denied the con-
clusion. Did they want to know the opinions of the Electors
on this question? Let them look at the result of the late
Elections. For his own part, he had acted honestly by his
constituents. Every body knew what his opinions were on
the subject of popular education, and yet in a ward styled by
one of the brightest of its inhabitants the Gibralter of
Reform, (loud laughter,) the result was before them. Were
gentlemen really blind on this question ? They might de-
pend upon it, that the Electors would not look with favour
on any man, who conceded where a vital principle was con-
cerned, and they might go on conceding till they had nothing
left that was worth preserving. (Hear.) Let them as in
this case, yield the outwarks, and it will only be to give an
advantage, by which the citadel may be the more easily
stormed. (Loud cries of hear.) Let but the papal chureh
get in the point of the wedge, oiled as it is by liberalism, and
in a short time they would find thousands ready to drive it
home, and the conservative party will be split up amidst the
contempt and derision of its bitterest foes. (Hear.) He
knew a little of the under ground work.

Mr. Alderman EvANs.-----I am sure you do. (Laughter.)
Mr. El oLmE.—Well then, of the under current, and if
they now made the concession, other demands would soon
be made, and the concession will not bring the peace they ex-
pected. But he contended that mere secular education was
not beneficial to society unless united to moral culture. As
Mr. Blackburn had occupied some time in reading extracts,
he should do the same. And first in reference to crime.
Mr. Hoime here read an extract from a work by Mons.
Guerry, quoted by Mr. Bulwer, in his Monarchy of the
Middle Classes, in which it appeared that in France the
greatest number of crimes are committed in those provinces
where there is the greatest amount of education, and the
fewest where the people are comparatively ignorant; and Mr.
Bulwer makes the admission, that all the nine pins are
bowled down with which so many writers had been amusing
themselves; and he again sets up many of the old notions
which had gone out of vogue. From statistical tables it ap-
pears, that in England and Wales, from 1812 to 1832, crime
had doubled, while the population had only advanced in the
same period somewhat under a half. In America Mons.
de Tocqueville, himself a liberal, and a great advocate for
instruction, laments that in Connecticut, where there is far
more education than in New York, crime increases with a
terrible rapidity; and he adds, if one cannot accuse know-
ledge as the cause of this, one is obliged to acknowledge it is
no prevention. Mr. H. adduced the testimony of Dr.
Beattie, Mrs. Caroline Fry, and also of the Rev. James
Carlile, one of the Commissioners of National Education in
Ireland, who had observed, that " education might be con-
sidered infidel which rejects the use of the Bible, and would
tolerate in school, no religion but that of reason, and no
morality but that of nature." The returns from Coldbath-
fields Prison in 1835 were—
Prisoners educated
Uneducated. lO4
In Glasgow Bridewell in the same
year, educated 274
Uneducated
And the chaplain of Coldbath Fields Prison draws the con-
clusion, " That It Is not the want of education, but the
absence of principle, which leads to crime." If men wanted
a proof of the effect of education without moral culture, they
had it in France. Previous to her revolution, she was flooded
with the labours of the encyclopaedists and philosophers.
She sowed the serpent's teeth of mere secular instruction and
she reaped the harvest. They might differ with him in his
views, but let them consider where a latitudinarian spirit led
them. A few years ago they viewed education by the light
of the materia medico. The homoeopathic was then the
newest and most fashionable system, and they came to the
determination of giving Scripture in infinitessimal doses by
Irish extracts. (Loud laughter.) A newer system was now
to be introduced—the hydropathic ; and the children of the
poor Roman Catholics were to be drenched with cold water
only. (Renewed laughter.) Who did not know that the
Roman Catholic church refused to give the Scriptures to the
people ? God has said his word shall be made known to
all. The pope says it shall not. Which, then, would they
obey ? He would give them the opinion of one of the most
enlightened of the popes on the subject, that of Pius VII,
who, on the 29th of June, 1816, issued a bull to the Primate
of Poland, and which he would read to them. It was this—
" Venerable Brother,—ln our last letter, we promised
shortly to answer your letter, in which you earnestly desire
instructions from the Holy See, as to the manner in which
you should conduct yourself as to what are commonly called
Bible societies. We have long abhorred their abominable
doings, by which the very foundation of religion is under-
mine. It becomes the duty of the episcopal office to expose
the wickedness of this abominable scheme. Indeed, ex-
perience has proved that the Holy Scriptures, when circulated
in the vulgar tongue, have, through the temerity of man,
been productive of more injury than advantage."
This was the opinion of Pius VII, and he, therefore, thought
that the question before them was this—Should they in their
legislative capacity join the papal church in a crusade against
Scripture ? And in defending truth, be could not join in the
distinction drawn by Mr. George Lawrence between a man's
duty in his public and private capacity. If religious and
secular instruction was disunited, the result would inevitably
be the total neglect of the religious portion of instruction; and
he contended that according to Mr. Lawrence's amendment,
it would be absolutely requisite for every Roman Catholic
parent to attend on the Monday to certify that his child
had been taught Popery on the Sunday. (Hear.) But what
security had they that these poor children would be taught
any religion at all? Those who were acquainted with the
habits of too many of the lower orders—who had visited their
dwellings, and made themselves familiar with their habits—
unhappily knew that blasphemy and intemperance were un-
happily too prevalent amongst them ; and it was highly
probable that the school would be the only place where to
many of these children any religion would be taught. (Hear.)
Connected with this topic, he hardly knew how it was pos-
sible for gentlemen to send the Bible abroad, and still refuse
it at home. The London Missionary Society, of which he
believed Mr. Blackburn to be a most efficient member, and
he honoured him for it, for he did not hesitate to avow pub-
licly that be was the decided friend of missionary societies—
this society had some time ago sent a vessel along the coast
of China to distribute Bibles among the Chinese, contrary to
the commands of the Chinese government, and contrary to
the wishes of their Mandarins ; and he was at a loss to know
why gentlemen should be at the expense and trouble of send-
ing the Bible to the antipodes, when they yielded to the pre-
judices of those at home who refused to receive it. He also
agreed with Mr. Blackburn, that in discussing this question
all personalities ought to be avoided—and he hoped he never
should be guilty of offending in this respect. But he would
avail himself of that opportunity of observing that persona-
lities were not all on one side. (Hear.) He agreed with
him that personalities were a proof of a low and vulgar
mind ; but some months ago a work was issued from the
press in weekly numbers, probably not much read, in which
he found the following choice selection of phraseology, which
for his advantage he would read. Alluding to the decision
of the council on the education question, the author thus
expressed himself—" The whole scheme is mean, selfish and
dishonest : I denounce it as a great social crime. There is

involved in it the fourfold guilt of cruelty, tyranny, injustice
and meanness." He then observes "that all religious de-
nominations are, in the eye of the muncipal law, on a footing
of perfect equality." The town-clerk says they are not, and
the municipal act says they are not. He (Mr. H.) merely
quotes the remark that he may observe, that the municipal
bill was not framed by the wicked tories. (Hear.) It was
framed by the whigs; and if they have by that bill excluded
all but the members of the Church of England, let the
blame of such exclusion rest with those who framed it, and
not with those who had no hand in it. (Hear.) The author
then goes on to charge the tories with " unblushing menda-
city," and asserts that they are " unprincipled traducers,
some wearing black coats, some blue"—speaks in a lofty
way of " blood-thirsty and tyrannical priests filling the gaols
with victims," and likens the members of the town-council
to Archbishop Laud. He then alludes in the choicest
phraseology to members of the council " stifling their con-
victions in fumes of tobacco and libations of gin," and does
not forget to notice the " pots of Mr. Parker's strong ale."
A COUNCILLOR :—W'ho is the author of it ?
Mr. HoemE :—You will hear soon enough ! The writer
continues, that " from time immemorial the drunken, the
profligate, the profane, have always been the main bulwarks
and buttresses of that worldly corporation of priests, which
glorifieth itself in all Christian lands, (except America,) un-
der the names, style, and title of the Church." (Loud laugh-
ter.) But not content with all this, he goes on to observe,
(of course, this is not personal,) " We, David Hodgson,
Thomas Sands, Christopher Bushell, James Parker, Richard
Harbord, Wm. Birkett, James Aspinall, John B. Moore,
and others, are the only persons in Liverpool who are enti-
tled to have their consciences treated with respect. More-
over, it is our bounden duty to adopt and act upon our opi-
nions, and if any refuse to do so to punish them for their
wicked obstinacy and contumacy to the utmost extent of our
power. But so fettered arc we by oppressive laws, that we
cannot even cut off men's ears, or slit their noses, or put
them in the pillory for the good of their souls. We shall
make it evident, by going to the utmost length of our power,
that we would go further if we could." And then, after more
of the same sort, the writer, who is evidently a man of peace
and charity, consigns the above gentlemen to a place which ;
—but he shall speak for himself :—" All persecution for con-
science sake is, emphatically, the work of the Devil; and all
who are engaged in it, whether they be good men or bad, are
to time extent i❑ which they are so engaged, his vassals and
slaves. Ile cannot, indeed, force men to do his bidding,
contrary to their own wills, but when, by the criminal indul-
gence of their own prejudices and passions, they voluntarily
surrender themselves to his machinations, he never fails to
fan the natural depravity of the human heart into a flame,
until it breaks forth in deeds of violence and wrong. The
instruments he employs are very various; at one time he su-
bordinates to his own purposes the terrific energy of

brand, at another the consummate ingenuity of Loyola, and
at another the ignorance and folly of a Town Council." The
writer also asserts that " the system pursued by the late
rulers recognized the right of private judgment." The Church
of Rome recognizes no such right, and they might, therefore,
leave them to settle that point between them. Did not all
this slim personality ? And did it not prove that it was hos-
tility to our established Church--(hear)—rather than love of
truth and peace which caused the writer to overturn this
bucket of bilge wateron gentlemen quite as sincere and as much
actuated by Christian principles as he was? He believed
the work was itself out of print, and it had not, as far as he
recollected, any title. He would, therefore, give it one, and
would designate it the Garden of the Soul. The author dated
from Camden-street, and signed himself Thomas Blackburn.
(Loud cheers and laughter.) He would not trouble the coun-
cil much longer, but there was one subject on which he must
say a few words. The battle of scriptural education must be
fought in Liverpool. (Hear.) It had been stated that her
Majesty's government were favourable to the new-fangled
system of education. Attached as he was to his party, no-
thing should prevent him from boldly and independently
speaking out on this subject. If Sir Robert Peel should,
unfortunately, have such a leaning, then he begged to say,
that neither Sir Robert Peel nor a thousand governments
should influence him contrary to his own feelings and con-
victions. (Cheers.) He did not consider the argument
worth a straw. If any member of the government chose to
fight a duel, was that a reason why he was to fight one ?
Was that a reason why he was-to countenance the system of
duelling, by which a man ran the risk of living in the world
an assassin, or going out of it a voluntary suicide ? The
government were favourable to the Poor-law Bill. Was that
any reason that he should be enamoured of a bill, many
clauses of which he considered inhuman and detestable ?
He could conscientiously support Sir R. Peel's government
on general grounds, and yet preserve his own independence
and integrity by opposing them when he believed them to be
in the wrong. (Hear, hear.) He was not so wedded to
party as to look on Sir R. Peel as a conservative pope, whose
decrees were infallible ; and it was his decided conviction—
and in this conviction he should be borne out by hundreds
of his fellow-tradesmen, and by thousands of his operative
brethren, that if Sir Robert Peel, in an evil hour, should
venture to inoculate this country with the virus of the so-
called neutral system of education, the fall of Sir R. Peel's
government will be as speedy as, he knew from the temper
of the public mind, that fall would be certain. (Loud cheers.)
In all the discussions that had taken place on this subject,
there were several of the dissenting ministers who had pre-
served a cautious silence; and that vast body, the Wesleyans,
made no objection to the present system. He did not know
of one of their ministers who had condemned it, but he
knew of many who had supported it. if, indeed, a broad
foundation was laid on religious teaching, they might safely
build upon it the loftiest superstructure of speculative
science ; but if they did not lay such a foundation—that
generation might not live to see it, but their children pro-
bably would—the popular tempest would hurl it to the
ground in irretrievable ruin. (Hear, hear.) He loved the
established church, and would never see her injured ; and he
believed that, Protestant as she was, and based on Scriptural
truth, she was the sheet-anchor of the British constitution.
He implored every one of her members to lend no helping-
hand to her enemies to lift that anchor from its moorings,
nor to weaken its hold on the affections of a religious people ;
for if they did, the vessel of the state itself would be driven
high and dry on the shore, and nothing would be left but a
mighty wreck, to display to future ages her former magni-
ficence and glory. (Cheers.) He might be taunted with
the charge of bigotry and intolerance for expressing his
sentiments. He despised such charges—for those who made
them were generally actuated by the same feelings which they
so loudly condemned in others. Mr. Blackburn had con-
cluded his speech in a solemn manner, and he should in this
respect imitate him. He called, then, upon all who heard
him, to resist Mr. Lawrence's amendment ; and in that
awful hour to which they must all soon come, and of which
lie was forcibly remined by the memento before him, ren-
dered, to his mind, doubly striking by the absence of the
canvas, it would plant no thorn in the dying pillow of any
man, that in his public life, as well as in his private capacity,
he had been found a consistent supporter and a willing advo-
cate of that system of popular instruction which is based
upon, and interwoven with, the will of the Eternal.
Mr. SANDS begged to make an explanation. He had
stated last week that he believed that the parents of the
children brought to the schools were asked if their children
went to the church. No such pledge was given; but it was
understood that the parents took them to some place of
worship on the Sabbath.

The council then divided, when there appeared
For the amendment
Against it

Majority in favour of Scriptural
Education
For the amendment—Councillors—W. Thornhill, T.
Blackburn, W. Preston, H. Holmes, H. Hornby, J. Holmes,
J. Aikin, J. Priestley, H. Lawrence, G. H. Lawrence, A.
Lace, J. Platt ; Aldermen—T. B. Barclay, T. Bulley, W.
Earle, J. H. Turner, W. P. Freme, J. Moon, E. Evans, and
the Mayor-20.
Against the amendment —Councillors—F. Shand, T. Shaw,
D. Hodgson, J. Holmes, H. Copeland, J. C. Thompson, J.
Edwards, R. B. B. H. Blundell, J. North, T. Sands, S.
Holme, E. Rae, T. Toulmin, T. Royden, J. Lawrence, J.
Cooper, J. N. Wood, W. Birkett, C. Bushell, J. Procter,
R. Rigby, J. B. Lloyd, J. Kilshaw, R. Jones, J. Parker,
T. Brassey, J. Plumpton, J. S. Leigh, S. L. Trotman, J.
Sheppard, A. Smith, jun., A. Harbord ; Aldermen—R.
Houghton, Sir T. Brancker, R. S. Crook, W. Nicol, J.
Bramley-Moore, E. Molyneux, T. Chilton-39.
Absent.—Councillors Houghton, Fawcett, and Aspinall;
Aldermen Griffith and Holt-5.
The MAYOR, in giving his vote, said, " My own vote
(and I beg to say that it is my own vote, though an allusion
has been made to the contrary) is for the amendment."
Mr. HODGSON supposed the proceedings were now con-
firmed?
Mr. EARLE said they were not, for there was something
more to talk about yet.
The MAYOR said the original motion now was for their
confirmation.
Mr. EARLE had no objection to their confirmation, but
he wanted to know why the returng were to bo disoontinued
of the numbers of each denomination of children? It had
been remarked that it was an obnoxious distinction ; but it
had been first made by Mr. Hodgson's own party. The
reformers did not object to it, and wby should it be discon-
tinued?
The MAYOR.—Do you move an amendment?
Mr. EARLE.—No ; it's of no use.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE thought it would be favourable to the
views of those who wished the Catholic children to go there,
that the numbers should not be published.
The MAYOR said the proceedings were now confirmed.
The council then rose at four o'clock, and adjourned till
Wednesday week, for the despatch of the remaining business
on the paper.