The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-05-03 00:00:00

unavailing

Mr. RADLEY said that the subscription, two guineas,
was too high ; and he recommended that a rate should
be levied for one year upon all subscribers, to obtain the
means necessary to place the gardens out of debt. Those
subscribers who would not pay the rate, he would exclude.
A. rate of five guineas from every subscriber would relieve
the gardens from debt ; but until that had been done no new
subscribers would join, as they would be rather fearful of
some liability coming upon them.
Mr. TAYLOR said that one-half the subscribers would give
up if any attempt was made to levy a rate upon them.
Mr. MATHER stated that a contribution of £lO and up-
wards had already been paid by a large proportion of the pro-

prietors.
Mr. RADLEY said the advantage of levying a rate would be
that the gardens might be carried on at a moderate expense
afterwards.
Mr. WRIGHT questioned whether the committee had any
power under the deed of settlement to levy a rate.
Mr. RADLEY repeated that the subscription was too high.
Many tradesmen, he knew, would join, if it were fixed at a
more moderate sum, but they certainly would not at its pre-
sent rate, whilst the gardens were in debt.
Mr. MATHER said the subscription for proprietors was a
guinea and a half a year, and it was unreasonable to allow
annual subscribers who were not proprietors to be admitted
upon the same terms. The motion he made at the last meet-
ing was, that annual subscribers should be admitted, on pay-
ment of two guineas, to the same privileges as proprietors.
The CHAIRMAN.—We had annual subscribers, previous
to the last meeting, of one guinea.
Mr. MATHER.—Yes, but only twenty; and for the sake
of twenty guineas you depreciated the value of all the shares.
Mr. ROBINSON inquired the valuation of the property?
The CHAIRMAN replied that there was no valuation made
last year ; but when it was offered to the corporation Mr.
Okill's valuation was £BOOO.
Mr. ROBINSON said the gardens were too far off to be
supported, and he feared besides that they did not meet the
taste of the people here. He would therefore propose that
they be sold unless some means could be found for carrying

them on.
The Rev. Mr. MARTINEAU said the circumstances under
which the proprietors met now ,were more favourable than
those under which they met two years ago. The debt then
was £4000; now it was only £2700. Their income was now
almost equal to the expenditure, including tie interest on
the debt to the hank; and if it were not for that debt, or if
a reduced rate of interest were accepted, no effort would be
required to keep up the gardens. It appeared to him, there-
fore, that if the debt could be transferred from the bank to
some gentlemen who would allow it to lie in small portions
in their own hands, upon a low rate of interest or no interest
at all, the committee would soon be in a condition gradually
to pay off the debt. He did not think a case had been made
out for selling the gardens.
Mr. MULLENEUX inquired what interest they paid an-
nually upon the debt?
The CHAIRMAN replied .f.. 5 per cent.
Mr. T. HARVEY confessed that coming as he did fresh to
these matters, he felt grieved, he might say shocked, at the
probability of the gardens being sold, and consequently ex-
tinguished, upon the ground of the disgrace such an event
would reflect upon the town, as well as the deprivation of a
rational recreation. At Leeds, Manchester, and Dublin
there were similar gardens flourishing, and he should deeply
regret if the Liverpool garden were extinguished. He was
struck with the proposition just made for an effort to pay off
the sum of money due to the bank. If it were true that the
property of the garden could be mortgaged to any persons
who were willing to lend the money, there were, he thought,
abundance of gentlemen in Liverpool able and willing to pro-
vide sufficient to pay off the bank. Or, they might pay off
£2.000 and leave the other £7OO to remain. Gentlemen who
were really disposed to befriend the gardens, would lend
their money at 2; or 3 per cent. • He repeated, he was struck
with the proposition, and thought it deserving of serious
consideration.
Mr. BROOKES said there had been a proposal of this kind
made before and it did not answer.

The SECRETARY stated that the gardens, at the time of
their removal to the present site, cost £13,300. The expenses
of the land were 4000 guineas, and £9OOO were paid for glass,
building, &c., and if thy were sold at the present time there
would be an enormous sacrifice. Out of the whole £13,300
there was only the real property upon which dependence
could be placed.
Mr. Alderman TURNER inquired whether an offer had not
been made to purchase the gardens ?
The CHAIRMAN, in reply, said there had been ; but he did
not consider that it was to be brought forward until it had
been decided whether or not the gardens should be sold. If
sold, it would be under the condition that they should be
kept open as a place of public resort.
Mr. HOLT thought it premature to enter upon that subject
before a resolution had been passed to sell them. If it was
determined to sell them, the committee would dispose of
them in the best manner, with a provision for the study of
botany, or for making the most of them in the way of money.
MULLENEUX said Mr. Robinson had moved that the
gardens be sold.
Mr. ROBINSON said he would withdraw his motion, if it
was the determination of the meeting to keep them on, for he
should be very sorry to see them given up. But he did not
see any prospect of that, and therefore he wished some deci-
sion to be come to.

Mr. WRIGHT asked what objection there would be to the
committee applying to the corporation to lend the money to
pay off the debt at a low rate of interest ? There was ample
security for the payment of the debt.
Mr. MARTINEAU moved a resolution to the effect that the
committee be instructed to borrow any sum of money neces-
sary to pay off the whole or chief part of the debt npon
security of the land, and at a rate of interest sufficiently low
to bring the expenditure within the income.
Mr. MULLENEUX seconded the motion. _

Mr. WRIGHT said Mr. Martineau probably was not aware
that the proprietors had paid a sum of money for which they
received no interest whatever. An attempt had then bee►►

made to pay off the whole debt; but it did not succeed.
Part of the debt, however. had been raised by some of the
proPrietors ; they were receiving no interest for their money,
and he thought it rather hard that the parties who came for-
ward to lend money now should receive 3 or 4 per cent.,
whilst those who advanced money before received no interest
whatever.

Mr. M ARTINEAU said the object of the former effort was I
not that the money should be lent by way of loan, on which
interest was to be paid, but that it should be given.
The CHAIRMAN said it was money given to the gardens so
long as the gardens remained unsold ; but when the gardens
were sold the parties who advanced the money were to be
paid.
• Mr. MARTINEAU'added that so long as the gardens were
kept up the advance was not to be repaid.
Mr. MATHER.—Then they will have a prior claim before
the mortgagee.
Mr. MARTIN EAU.--It was not the intention at that time
to raise up a body of subscribers to pay interest to them-
selves, but to sell the gardens.
Mr. WRIGHT, for one, did not wish to sell the gardens,
nor did he expect to receive interest for what he had ad-
vanced; but still, if this motion (Mr. Martineau's) was put,
he should move an amendment that an application be made to
the corporation to lend the money at a low rate of interest.
Mr. MARTINEAU said the terms of his resolution left it
open for that.
Mr. HOLT suggested that Mr. Martineau's resolution should
be modified in such a manner as to include an application to
the corporation.
Mr. MATIIER.—With what case can you go before the
corporation, or any other persons, to borrow money, with a
first mortgage existing for the money lent by the proprietors?
Mr. WRIGHT.—There is no legal mortgage.
Mr. MATHER.—But the money is to be repaid when the
gardens are sold.
Mr. WRIGHT.—I, for one, will forego mine.
The CHAIRMAN repeated that the money already advanced
would have to be repaid only in case of the gardens being
sold.
Mr. HARVEY said it would be very easy, if the proposition
was entertained in any quarter, to add the thousand pounds,
or whatever it was, which some proprietors had contributed,
to the mortgage, so that it could stand upon interest.
Mr. HOLY observed that he had contributed for no other
object than to support the gardens, and having done so he
would waive any claim to the repayment of his money. The
claim for interest ought not to interfere with keeping up the
gardens • they should give the mortgage priority of claim.
The &AIRMAN again intimated his conviction that no
aid whatever might be expected from the council.
Mr. Alderman TURNER agreed with the chairman, that
there was no chance of the corporation lending any money.
Mr. ROBINSON said, that in order to bring the question
to a point, he would move, as an amendment on Mr. Marti-
neau's motion, that the gardens be sold.
Mr. BitooKEs seconded the proposition.
The Rev. A. CAMPBELL supported the proposition for sell-
ing the gardens, on the ground that the public taste afforded
no encouragement for botanical pursuits.

Mr. FALCONER said all would agree with him that no pro-
prietor wished to make a speculation of selling the gardens.
He would much rather see them broken up than it should be
so. 'When they considered •,P of the finan
moment, they would

thnt tl

ed to the freeho

of the value of £BOOO, independently of the valuable library,
plants, and the glass, which he should think were worth
from £2OOO to £2500 more. Thus, then, they had pro-
perty worth 10,000 guineas. The debt was £2700. If they kept
up the gardens for a few years, they would of course increase
the debt, but still they would have sufficient to pay it. He
believed there would be no difficulty in executing a deed of
trust for raising money upon the gardens by way of mortgage.
He recommended, then, that somewhat more money than
was required to pay off the bank be borrowed upon mortgage.
The gardens might then be kept together for a certain period;
circumstances then might so change that the debt would be
redeemed an.l the gardens also kept up. " lie would not,
however, go to the corporation to borrow the money ; he
would much rather go to the public. They might borrow at
41 per cent., and make provision for the payment of the
interest by means of a sinking fund. Mr.Yalconer then
moved a series of three resolutions, to the effect that as the
value of the property so far exceeded the demands upon it
it was proper, if not expedient, to prevent the breaking up of
the institution ; that to relieve its financial difficulties the
solicitor be directed to prepare such a deed of trust as would
be a legal mortgage, and that the committee be directed to
borrow the sum of £4OOO upon mortgage of the real property,
being one half of the estimated value thereof, exclusive of
the library, plants, and glass, for seven years, and appropriate
the same to paying off the balance due to the bank of £2700,
and the sum of £llOO to the payment of the interest, and

.
the residue to be transferred to the treasurer to be accounted
for by him.

The resolution having been seconded, a long desultory
conversation followed, in which the Chairman, Mr. Carr,
Mr. Falconer, Mr. Martineau, Mr. Wright, Mi. Turner,
and Mr. Barclay took part, at the end of which, in order to
obtain regularity in the proceedings, it was agreed that Mr.
Robinson's motion for the sale of the gardens should be put
first.

The CHAIR: :AN then put the question, whether the gar-
dens should be sold. Only twelve hands were held up for
it, whilst a very large majority appeared against it. The
Chairman then declared the motion to have been lost.
Some conversation next took place upon Mr. Falconer's
motion, which eventually was incorporated with Mr. Mar-
tineau's. and made into a substantive proposition to the effect,
that it bean instruction to the committee to endeavour to
raise a sum of money to pay off the whole debt, or part of it,
and the interest thereon, upon the security of the land
In answer to a question, it was stated that the 1

freehold.
The CHAIR

carried almost

The proceedings then term
i hour.

ted, hating occupied abo

LECTURES ON THE CREED OF POPE PIUS
THE FOURTH.

The eighth of the series of lectures, by clergymen of the
Church of England, on the creed of, Pope Pius the Fourth,
was delivered on the evening of FritTay last, by the Rev. J.
Barrett, of Birmingham. The subject of the lecture was the
eighth article of the creed " I most firmly believe that the
imageS of Christ, of the mother of God, ever virgin, and
also of other saints, may be had and retained ; and that due
honour and veneration are to be given to them.",
. .

Mr. IVlzuni7E7r-o; haying been-called to the chair, the prc
ceditigs commenced by the Rev. Fielding Ould supplicatin

the divine blessing upon them.
Mr. BARRETT, on presenting himself before the auditory,
was received with much cheering. He read his lecture from
notes, stating that he preferred giving it in a written form,
to trusting himself to an extemporaneous address, in order
that he might be able duly to weigh his words; " to think
before he spoke," so that he might, in such an important
matter, refrain from giving vent to any rash or hasty expres-
sions. The introductory part of the lecture was an eloquent
exposition of the grounds on which the controversy with the
Church of Rome is taken up by the Protestant advocates of
the present day, in the course of which be showed that every
_ _ _

clergyman of the Church of England is bound by the canon
law and the ordination vow to bear testimony against all
" erroneous and strange doctrines contrary to God's word."

The subject assigned to him, in this vital and important
discussion, was the doctrine of image worship, as maintained

and set forth by the Church of Rome, in •her public and
accredited formularies of faith. In considering it he should
adopt the only fair plan, Ramey, investigate the documents
themselves of this idolatrous church in proof of her idolatry,
and gather the sentence of her condemnation, not from the
testimony of any partial bystander, nor from the summing
up of any bribed or prejudiced judge, but from the evidence
of " her own mouth," as she was heard speaking in her
creed, her catechisms, her canons, and her councils. He

would first show whilt the doctrine and practice of image

worship was as recognised by the Church of Rome ; next he
would examine the grounds upon which she professed to build
it ; and then prove that the doctrine was not held by the

early fathers of the Catholic Church, and that it was not
only unnoticed by, but was directly contrary to, express
statements of the wotd of God.
The rev. gentleman then entered upon the consideration of
the first branch of the subject—the doctrine and practise of
image worship, as recognised by the Church of Rome. Here
he quoted the eighth article of Pope Pius's Creed, as
given above, and showed that the Council of Trent decreed
image worship, and that any one who taught contrary to this
decree was to be• held accursed. The Catechism of the
Council of Tient went a step beyond both the creed of Pius
and the Tridentine Council, because it boldly averred that
representations of the Godhead were lawful and Scriptural.
" The Abridgment of Christian Doctrine " (revised by Dr.
Doyle), and " The Grounds of Catholic Doctrine " (by Bi.
shop Challoner), were next quoted to show that the Church
of Rome distinctly and positively maintains and anathemises
those who presume to differ from her dogmas—that not only
the saints, but even the persons of the mysterious Trinity
may be represented under visible forms, that these forms, or
images, are to be kissed, before them we are to bow down
with uncovered heads, and that they are always to receive
" due honour and veneration." We were left, however, at a
loss to know whatthis " due honour and veneration " exactly
intend, and therefore it was necessary to refer to other docu-
ments for explanation. The Church of Rome was anxious
(and we need not be surprised at her anxiety) to clear herself
from the damning charge of idolatry, and therefore we find
her labouring to distinguish between an image and an idol,
and between an absolute and a relative worship. But after

all, there was a great variety of sentiment upon this most vi-
tal subject. l3ellarmine distinguishes the systems of image
worship into three classes : one class recognizes the use of
images, but rejects their worship—this party allows the su-
perstition of Romanism but forbids its idolatry : a second
class patronises both the use, and the imperfect but inferior

worship of these representations—this party countenances the
idolatry as well as the superstition : a third class prefers the
same adoration to the copy as to the original—and, therefore,
with respect to the images of God and his son, are guilty of
the grossest idolatry. This was-a remarkable admission. In
this infallible church, which boasts so much, of its unity, and
of its being always the same, there were, on this one subject,
three opinions. (Hear. hear, hear.) He should pass over
the two first and consider the third only ; and as Cardinal
Bellarmine referred to some of the greatest and mostrespec-
table names in the Church of Rome as concurring in it, it
would be worth while to look into the various declarations of
these private writers to see whether they were, or not, conso-
nant with the sentiments of their church, as recorded in her
manuals, breviaries, and catechisms. The rev. gentleman
then quoted statements from Thomas Aquinas, Naclantus,
Azonius the Jesuit, and compared them with the expressed
tenets and recognised formularies of the church, as given in
"The Roman Pontifical," revised and published at Rome in
1595, by order of Pope Clement VIII., the Roman Missal,
Breviary, the Processional, the use of the Agnus Dei, and the
lives of Alphonus Lignori, and four other saints canonised on
Trinity Sunday, in the year 1839, (published by Dr. Wise-
man,) and contended that these established, beyond question,
the charge of idolatry against the Roman Catholic Church.
In the second place he should examine the grounds npon
which the Church of Rome professed to hold the doctrine of
image worship. In order to bring this matter within as nar-
row a compass as possible, be should waive the consideration
of many points, and confine his attention to what might be
regarded as the two principal arguments, for it' these were
controverted, all the subordinate ones would follow. The
first was professedly built upon certain passages of scripture ;
and the second was derived from the distinction the Church
of Rome institutes between an absolute and a relative wor-
ship. As to her scriptural arguments for image worship they
were but small, although Bellarmine, with the view of mak-
ing as great a show with them as possible, had classified
them under three heads of evidence. The first class was
those which speak expressly of images, and of this sort
there were only two ; one was in Exodus xxv. 18, and the
other in Numbers xxi. 8,9, but in neither one nor the other
did it appear that the image or the serpent was made for the
purpose of worship. The second class of evidence was those
texts which welt to show that some creatures are to be ho-
noured for their bare relation to God, and in support of this
Romish writers cited the 22nd Psalm v. 5 ; but he showed
that this passage had been misinterpreted in the Romish
version. The third class of evidence was those texts which
speak of some creatures as sacred or holy, because of their
relation to holy things. These texts are, Exodus iii. 5•, xii.
16 ; and xxviii. 2 ; Isaiah xi. 10 ; 2 Timothy iii. 15. None
of these had any relation to image worship, and be looked
upon them as weak and irrelevant. Here then, the rev.
gentleman proceeded, we dismiss this part of our subject.
We have endeavoured to lay before you a candid, and so far
as we were empowered, an accurate examination of the prin-
cipal texts upon which the Romish champions lay the greatest
stress; and of this we are most thoroughly certain, that if
these, which have thus passed in review before us, do not sub-
stantiate the doctrine of image worship, there arc no other
texts that can do so, if you search from Genesis to Revela-
tion. Nay, as we hope immediately to prove there is a deep-
funned, and mighty phalanx of texts drawn up in battle
array against it. (Loud cheers.)
The rev. gentleman then proceeded to the consideration of
the second branch of the argument, drawn from the distinc-
tion which the Church of Rome institutes between an abso-
solute and a relative worship. This distinction seemed to
have been greatly insisted upon by Bossuet ; but it was at the
best a very unhappy one. It was the self-same distinction
that was made by the pagan idolators of old, as might easily
be proved by a multitude of examples from Juvenal, Seneca,
and the elder Pliny. All that the Romanists could pretend to
was, that they had more just notions of the worship of saints
than the Pagans had, but this would be found difficult of
proof. The Pagan philosophers offered the same apology for
their worship of demons which the learned Romanist now al-
leged in justification of his worship of saints; and whether
the unlearned Romanist may not be led to entertain as gross
notions relative to the worship of saints as the illiterate among
the heathen, had been much suspected among the doctors,
even of their own church. Surely the easiest way and the
safest was, not to to worship images at all, nor to vex and
torture people's minds with vain distinctions ; but to hold
fast, to the integrity of God's word, and repudiate every thing
that savours of human invention. (Loud cheers.)
Having diScussed these questions he shouldproceed to open
up his direct attack against the whole position ; and he laid
it down, as his first proposition, that the doctrine of image
worship was not held by the early fathers of the Christian
Church. Observe, he proceeded, we do not mean to say that
if it had been, therefore it is to be believed. We do not turn
to them as to arbitrators whose opinion is law, and whose dic-
tum is a tribunal from which there lies no appeal. (Hear.)
We have not yet learnt to give up that pure principle of our
faith," The Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the
Bible,"—(cheers)—however some may rail and others exe-
crate. We would not ourselves dare to put forth the un-
hallowed hand and remove the Bible, the word of the living
God, from that high and lofty position in which, by Godhim-
self, it is enshrined, as the sole determinator of religious
controversy. "To the law, and to the testimony if they
speak not according to this word it is because there is no light
in them." At the same time, though we do not appeal to
these writers any more than we would appeal to other unin-
spired men as judges in the court of truth, we would yet de-
sire to bring them forward as witnesses to the truth, and are
always "glad on account of their high intellectual as well
moral character when we hear them responding to the state-
ments, and testifying to the verities, of " the rule of faith."
; and we found
(Loud cheers.)—That the first Christians bad no images was
evident from the circumstance that they were reproached by
theyd‘ivdrinteort.oufsetltiehefinirst four centuries
Scripture,al
and the pure and spiri-
tual uhaeta heathen
every
ecclesiastical because
the other er • iors of the Church
arguing against the gentile practice of image worship from
earliero
gra duaagl growth;es uf
but as it was en-
tthuealpnlaaitrui
rdeeculfaGrautido.ns
Lorkeali
the church, he should
find no difficulty in arranging the evidence of antiquity
en-
tirely el y Rome
unknowni t wa
s
against it. In the second century Justin Martyr spoke
ionnteheof.