The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-07-18 00:00:00

BREACH OF PRIVILEOR.

The Order of the Day for the attendanee of Mr. Hope
and Mr. Menzies being read,
Mr. W. COURTENAY moved "that Mr. Hope be
now called in."

eoeW
that

The motion being agreed to, Mr. Hope made his ap-
pearance at the bar of the House.
The SPEAKER.—" Mr. Hope, I have to Inform yon,
that on the 9th of July a complaint was male to this
House, that a letter bad been addressed to an Hon. Mem-
ber, taking notice of a speech delivered by him in this
House, when-certain passages of the letter were read,
and declared to be a breach of the privileges of Parlia-
ment. Have the goodness to look at this letter, and
state whether it was written by you."
Mr. Hope replied in the affirmative.

The SPEAKER.—" The House came to a resolution
that the said printed letter was a breech of its privileges,
and ordered you to attend here this day. If you have
any thing to say in explanation of the contents of tbat
letter, now is the time at which you are allowed to
do so."

Mr. HOPE then add d the house, but front his be-
ing situated immediately under the Gallery, we could
but imperfectly hear his observations. He commenced
by begging to thank the house for the opportunity
which it bad afforded him of explaining the causes
which hail placed :lir. in hi. present situation. In do 1
ing so it was not his 1.: ' purpose to state any thing
which would be at variatmee nitli the Resolution to
which the house had come, as Ir. filly sensible that
the letter which lie had found it nei.e:-eary to woke was
a breach of its established privileges. But be hoped
that many circumstances would induce the house to con-
sider it rather as a technical infringement of its'
forms, than as a serious and meditated attache upon its
privileou-s and authority. Every view which he euter-
tained of the character of the house would forbid his
tel.ifig such a step; regarding as he did such privileges.,
to be no If'ss the privileges of the people than of the
house. Every one, lie thought, must own that lie hail
been placed in a cruel situation; and however painful
to his feelings, the only course which he thought be
could take was that direct attempt to vindicate his Ito-'
poor and his character. He hope,' the house would ,
have regard to the circumstances tinder which that
course was adopted, and to the state of his feelings at
the time he committed the act, which placed lain in the
situation of en offender against its privileges. He
wished the house to be aware that hr did not publish
the letter with an intention to call its authority in goes-
lion, lint solely with a view to vindicate his prolessioual
character from an unfounded and itujiist attack. The
eharges were of a most serious character. They were
those of a malicious prosecution, awl a violation of pro-
fessioes'. duties. It oats said that lie instituted a prose-
eution against an individual without intending to pur-
sue it, and that, too, for the purpose of prejudging the
the ease of one who was about to stand his trial for life
or death. The accusation imputed to him, that in the
.rapport of certain views, he hail engaged iu carrying
.hem on %vitt' a degree of furious zeal, with inveterate
malignity, and even with personal hatred. That to in-
dulge those feelings as an advocate, be hail 'supported
acts which must lead to murder and bloodshed. It ins
tinted to hint, in short, the absence of all those qualities,

which no Counsel could claims or expect the
confidence, and'%without which no tl•ntleasau
respected or tolerated in society. Need he say
inch imputations Were injurious to his feelings;
..ed be say that such istatiwes were injurious to his
private reputation;—need he say that such imputations
IWO injurious to his professional character, and calcu-
lated to withdraw from him as a your; man that pros-
pact of honour and distinction to which be naturally
looked with anxiety. And what eau., existed for such
imputations? lie never was Counsel in the cause to
which they alluded. He abet probably knew less of
the parties concerned in it than the Hon. Member did
who made the charges. He was utterly ignorant of
the contents of the papers which had his signature to
them, as alluded to in the debate of the house. He
skned the papers according to the practice of the Scotch
Courts fur a brother Advocate, without knowing any of
their contests. Under these circumstances he 'would
ask the house with perfect confidence whether it was
possible for him to see such imputations affecting his
professional char-e'er, and destroying his character as
a Gentleman; be would confidently ask, whither be
could see such imput:‘Cions circulated by the public
press without feeling some waits its, sod without being
urged to take the most decisive means of relieving him-
self from the dishonour. He did not recur to them in
'soy wanton desire of violating the. privileges of the
basso, but in the necessary defrnee of his character.—
Under these circumstaaces, feeling that the whole of
these imputations were made upon a total mis-statement
of facts (pieceeding, no doubt, from misconception), lie
would ask how it could be expected that he should re-
frain from contradicting them by means of the 1141110
channel through which they were disseminated to the
public. Besides the public feeling which -most have
been excited against him, in the narrow circle of so.
ciety in which be moved, every one would meet him with
a knowledge of the charges east upon his character;
and, unquestionably to him, the most painful feeling of
all, would be that of seeing in every man he met, a
friend who mourned, or a political foe who triumphed
in his degradation. Under all the circumstances of the
case, he trusted the house would see a reasonable cause
for the irritation under which the breach of their privi-
leges was committed. As to the warmth of feeling
which he bad displayed, he thought he should not be
required to say muds in its defence, when he was ad-
dressing English Uentlemen. It would not be a matter
of surprise that a British Counsellor and a British Gen-
tleman should feel warmth when repelling an unjust at-
tack upon his character and honour. He desired to ex-
press his sincere regret that the means he had found it
neceteary to take for that purpose bad placed him in the
situation of having violated the privileges of the House
of Commons; and not deprecating from personal feel-
ings any consequences which might follow, he relied
with perfect confidence upon that house for receiving
substantial justice at its hands.
The speech was followed by loud and continued
cheering.
Mr. Hope was ordered to withdraw.
Sir R. WILSON rose to order, amidst loud calls upon
Mr. Coon TT AA .
The SPEAKER decided that the Hon. Member was
entitled to -

ailed to speak to a point of order.
Sir IL WILSON said that he had never been more
shocked than at hearing the cheers in which Honourable
Members opposite bad thought proper to indulge, in ap-
probation of what bad been said at the bar. They
wan assembled there as Judges, and by such expression
of their feeling, Gentlemen rendered themselves parties
in the case at issue. It was impossible to expect that
impartial justice should be done when such conduct was
observed.

Mr. W. COURTENAY moved. "That Mr. Hope
having acknowledged himself to be the author of the
said letter. is guilty of a breach of the privileges of this
House."
Sir F. BURDETT continued to entertain the opinion

which be had always expressed as to the great danger
which existed in this assumption of power by the House
of Commons. He bad never yet heard of any thing to
do away with the strong constitutional objections which
he saw opposed to such acts. In the present case bet
could not see how it was possible to exercise the power
which the House claimed without allowing that every
man in the country was to be subjected to whatever an-
' other might choose to say of him 30 that House without
replying to it, or even to the mistakes of those who
gave their debates to the public, or still more the most
malignant representations which persons might think
proper to make. He begged to ask whether such a
power would be allowed to the Crown as that claimed
by Parliament, in cases which it might choose to declare
Breather. of Privilege? But he could sot see how the
case now before them was a breach of any part of the
privileges which they claimed. The party stated that a
report of a speech had appeared which traduced and in-
jured his character, and consequently proceeded to de-
clare such a report to be false. If tins was a Breach of
Privilege they were suffering them to be committed
every day, and no man was safe who referred to any
thing that was said or done in Parliament.—(Hear.)—
If any one were to apply directly to a Member to call
him to accoupt for any thing which he might have done
in the discharge of his duty, and he brought the matter
before the House, then he confessed he should see a
justifiable ground of interference. The original inten-
tion of guarding Parliament with privileges was to pro-
vide them a shield against the power of the Crown in
the free discharge of their duty ; but not to arm them
with a sword against their fellow-subjects. The power
which they claimed was in itself an anomaly; for they
proceeded to inflict imprisonment, yet they did not pre-
sume to resort to the minor punishment of fine. The
gentlemen who had been before the house said, that the
statements made against hint were untrue. In that
case he had a right to complain of his friends who had
prevented inquiry, where his innocence, and the false-
hood of the charges might have been proved. His lion.
and Learned Friend, as he thought, had brought for-
ward the affair in the most unexceptiooabl, as well a% to
the most able manner. It appeared to him that a 1;r -aeh
of Privilege in such matters as thee' would consist of
an intention of committing, or of forcing others to
commit, violence. He did not really think, that there
had been a breach of the privileges, even such as the house
assumed its privileges to he. The power in question was
such as the law .lid not allow to the King.; and it there-
fore, was most unbecoming in the hoo.e to assume it
to itself. This consideration was more obvious when it
was remembered that sonic of those who sat in that
house were proprietors of their own seats and nominees
of others. Many of the privileges claimed by that
honse, he objected to; and to no one more than th it
which gave its Members eitetniAion from personal or-
P.m fie:, might he a very proper pi-kilt-4n when Par.
liaments were of short ;titration, and when they 14 for
only about forty days: but at present this privilege was
nothing more than a protection to the dishonest against
the payments of their debts. And yet it was altoge-
ther inconsistent; for according to the legal pro-
visions, a Member ought not to he in debt at all;
as he was obliged on taking his seat to swear to
the possession of his qualification its landed property,
clear of all ineumbrance, which meant virtually that he
was not in dept. On the whole be should decidedly
object to the exercise of the !sower claimed; as it now
was, by the house. In thus deciding he did not look a•
the person, hot at the principle, and the object whiel.
the House appeared to have in view. It fillowed, there-
fore that lie should vote aesiiist any motion personall%
affecting the Bentlewan who had just left the bar, and

I

he should certainly take the sense of the house epee wit
a motion.

Mr. S. IVORTLEY agreed with the Hon. Baronet,
that the breach of privilege, if any, hail been tensed by
the Isn't of the home itself. It soffered its debates to
be reported. and therefore ought nut to expect that ever),
person commented upon in those debates, should sit
down irietiv under imputations that might be egg
upon him. 'There can be no doubt that the Hon. aad
Learned lienilesoan who hail been alluded to (11r. Aber.
trashy) bad brooght forward his motion in a fair sad
proper manner: hut if 11141 lion. and Learned Member
had been misinformed, it would be 'mind to deprive I
person referr►d to by time Hon. and Learned Member of
the right to defend himself. lie therefore should also
vote with the ibin. lisronet nosiest anv motion baring
the punishment of .Ir. Hope fur its object.

Mr. CANNING said hie opinion on the present mt.
ject might Im aided in a very few words. It appear,'
that the house had already derided the paragraph in
question to be a breach of privilege. He was not pro.
sent at the drbate on that anbject, and it was now toe
late for hint to give an opinion on it. The question now
Wore the hafts* was merely wh.thee tbetleorlmos who
had left the liar was the individual who bad committed
that breach of privilege He alinulti vote for the pre.
seat motion, because it affirmed that proposition : bet
he did sat say that he was prepared to concur in any
vote with+ went to impose any, even the slightest
paniabmeot npon Mr. Hope. He should vote for the
motion, because it embraced a mere matter of fact.

Mr. COURTENAY uid, that as he conceived the
present motion merely consequential uses that which
Pm
been agreed to by the house on a former evening,
be had not thought it necessary to state what wu the
alternate course he ;wended to submit to the considera-
tion of the house. As this had been, however, some-
what ineonveniently anticipated, be would, with the
permission of the house, state the nature of the motion
with which he intended to follow np the present, should
it be agreed to by the bonse.—[lt was here sue:rested to
the Hon. and Learned Member that the present motion
might be at once disposed of.]
The SPEAKER then put the question, which was
agreed to without a division.

Mr. COURTENAY resumed. He was glad he could
now proceed according to the rules of the lions.. fle
thought that if ever there was an occasion in which all
party feeling should he itulsdned, it was the present.
He disclaimed it himself; and IN therefore should notice
the symptoms of approbation which bad been 'hewn on
the examination of Mr. Hope, merelto say, that he did
not see the propriety of them. When hr had lint
brought this subject under the consideration of the
house, he conceived that the ulterior disposal of it would
depend very mach on the conduct of the Gent lemon who
was to appear at the bar. He (Mr. C.) was perfectly
ready to give the language of that Gentleman every con-
sideration it deserved. Indeed his principal &Int
throughout had beet. to prevent any breach of the peace,
which it was to be feared would grow out of that which
now appeared to be mutual misapprehension ; and he
wished to accomplish this object with the least possible
oppression towards the individual concerned. If he
bad succeeded in this, his purpose was fully answered.
He trusted the resell of the ques'ion would have the
effect of smoothing down ranch of irritation which hail
taken place, and would 'hew that the privileges of that
bons. were essentially necessary to the protection of the
people. It appeared that Mr. Hope hail thought it ne-
e eee ee to defend his character against that which he
conceived to be an attack upon it in the speech of it's
Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Abercromby). He (.11r.
C.) would not advert to the language of either the speech
or the pamphlet. He thought it more prudent to retrofit
from doing so; and he trusted Hon. Members would see
the propriety of that forbearance, and follow his exam-
ple. He thought, however, it would be unfair to assume
that Mr. Hope intended to attack the privileges of the
house. His object appeared to be merely to defend him-
self. As be (Mr. C.) was perfectly aware that there
existed a strong feeling upon this subject which did not
generally lead to a sound conclusion; he bad not until
that evening stated to any one what was the motion lie
intended to make. He now conceived that every thing
necessary to be done would be done, by the adoption of
the Resolution be should have the honour JI submitting
to the consideration of the house. It did not impale any
personal punishment, while, in his opinion, it maintained
the privileges of Parliament. He therefore morel a
Resolution, " That Mr. Speaker do communicate the
said Resolution to the said Mr. John Hope, and inform
him that, under all thecircurnstances, and considerin;
the explanation he has given at the Bar, this house does
not feel itself called upon to proceed any further in this
matter."

Sir ROBERT WILSON said, that this resolution
would not accomplish the object of the Honourable and
Learned Member. The substance of the case was, that
an Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Abercromby) had
submitted a motion to the house, "ailing for an :mini:7
into the conduct of a Learned Lord: and in the coarse
of his statement in support of that motion, bad spoken
that which gave offence to Mr. Hope, who was himself
also, in some measure, accused. Mr. Hope upon this
took a course of all others most likely to provoke the
Hon. and Learned Member to take another, which was
sufficiently understood. Now, it was really necessary
to protect Members in the discharge of their Parlia-
mentary duty. There were many gentlemen in that
House of great talent and eloquence who did not ehoo.e
to play the parts of eladiators, or to light their way out
of the quarrels in which they might be engaged by those
who took offence at weir seeches in Parliament. He
thought the house was bound to prevent any personal
consequences taking place.
Sir R. FEROUSSON said he had no wish to keep up
any irritation which unfortunately existed ; but the re-
spect he bore to an excellent :friend who was absent
(Mr. Stuart) compelled him to notice a paragraph in
Mr. Hope's pamphlet of a most libellous nature, reflect-
ing on Mr. S. It was that which introduced theexpr..s.
'don, describing Mr. S. " as the heartless ruffian wbo
sought reveuge by ineens of his minions, whom lie or-
dered to bind tli.- arms of his victim." This assertiou
respecting Mr. Stuart, lie (34 IL) declared in his place
in Parliament, to be one of the most malicious false-
, bonds that had ever disgraced the press. Mr. lior.
I when he introduced this, most have been aware that the
fart in question had been denied by Mr. Stuart. He
(Sir Il.) haul thought it n..cessery to notice this, lest an
impression should go abroad unfavourable to a gentle-
man ult., was respected by all who knew him.
Mr BROUGHAM said no one was atoreanxiatta than
lie was to find as speediiy as pomihle a way to tenni:F.!:
these proceeding., provided that going in that way he
could discharge his dety.towards the public and the in-
dividual concerned. Not that be doubted that the pa-
ragrid• ,it question was a breach of privilege--sest that
he thought that heeach seas of the mild view. stare
huted to it, as i• armed, by some members of the house.
and by Mr. Cope himself, who bad called it a technical
breach,; or that he wassalistieri With what had been
called the eNplancion ef Mr. Hope. For no one of
these reasons cenid he think that they were dealing
with a ease similar to that of a mere report on the de-
hates, or a mere reference to the debates, or a Isere corn'
:nent 'Linn them. In either of these eases lb* slightest
eXiire4R.l.ni of apolov, it Wall .tell known, would be
onsi.ler .I amply sufficient But in this preseet listener
it became necessary fur the house to Inuit, whether

same lama nut been committed than ant thing which
could have been in either of the cams he bad mentioned.
It appeared that Mr. !lope thought himself injured ; ea-
justly Wined: and under this feeling he sat down to
write his defence. Now he(Mr. Brougham) did sot
wish nicely to weigh the expressions which a moo might
wakens. of under these circutestaccee, or too meetly to
visit Mr. Hope's misconduct; for it would be squeses-
isbeesa anal agectsition to say that be had nut been
guilty of misconduct. The investigation into the whole
spatter cwt of which the hresch of privilege mute, herd,
as yet, only 'wenn. Mr. Hope himself might he roust-
awed as still on his trial ; it was therelore painful to
animadvert upon him. But what, in point of fact, had
be does? Without endeavouring to ascertain the exact
degree of Mr. Hope's offence, it was his (Mr. wo de-
cided opinion, that the offence was committed iu no or-
dinary form; and that it was not a technical, hut a
substantial violation of the privileges of the house. It
was not a mere complaint of newspaper report, it was a
direct attack on a Member for that which he had sail in
the course of a speech, as remarkable for its temper us
it was for its distinguished ability. There were many
personal attacks in that house, which would he • breach
of privilege if made out of it: but the words used in this
pamphlet were such as no one, even in that Immo%
'could rei.• At to a Member. To Lbarge a Member
with malignant, unjust, or even unfair motives, was
a breach it the privileges of that howl yet his Honor
able and Learned Friend (Mr. Abercromby) had
been distinctly charged with doing that, of the un-
fairness of whirls he was conscious at the time he slid it.
tiles this even alloord to lie said in that house witboot
a reprimand His lion, and Learned Friend was
charged also aith sluing this to
political ascot iates out of doors." {Parr persons out of
doors to have larger authority than those in it ? lle
thought the house would confottml offences which were
perfectly distinct, if they treated this as a mere illusion.
Pie question, however, was, how to deal with it. His
Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. ronrteuay) proposed to
Fats it over on account of the explanation, as he called
tt, which hail been given at the bar. With every di.-
position to get out of the difficulty, lie (Mr. B.) could
not admit 'bat Mr. (lope had at all mitigated his of-
fence. There was but nor raprestion to he used at the
bar for the purpose of softening the consegnence of the
displeasure of the house, and that expression had not
fallen from Mr. Mope. He (Mr. It.) appealed to the ex-
perience of those who were most con t with the
history of that house, whether it hail ever allowed a per-
son who had committed a breach of privilege, to escape
on a mere explanation ? lint, after all, he should like
to know, in what part of Mr. Hope's address the expla-
nation consisted? Mr. Hope had spoken of his irritated
feelings; no man was none secessiVe to an appeal of
this description than he was.—(A laugh.)—fiat there
were two meanings which might be put upon Mr. Hope's
letter. It might mean to express irritated feeling., or
it might mean to provoke to a breach of the peace.. And
here he (Mr. ) would say, that Mr. Hope, whoever was
Lis adviser, been badly advised. in nut living advised
to negative this meaning. Ile had, however, left the
bar without having done this. As for explanation, he
(Mr. B.) hail heard none; anti with respect to contri-
tion, that had not even been pretended, anal Mr. Hope
had left the house in a situation, with regard to its cha-
racter and honour, which would induce even the lion.

Baronet for Weatminster (little as Ise regarded the house)
to look down upon it with compassion. I oared, in his
opinion, the hunse would motione itself to a miserable,
contemptible, and pitiable condition, if it adopted the
present Resolistion.
Lord BINNING said, that after the dignified and tem-
perate proposal of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Br.
Courtenay) he hail hoped the house was getting near a
termination of this unpleasant discussion but after the
'lintel% of the Hon. and Learned Member who had jest
sat down, be thought he should forfeit his duty as a
Member of that house, and his duty also to his esteemed
and beloved Friend. who had left the Bar, if he did not
offer a few ob thins on the present rose. Where that
house acted upon a Smelt of its Privila.ge. leniency was
always desirable; and he thought there was nothing in
the ease of his Learned Friend to render it incumbent on
the house to do more than was contemplated by the pre-
sent motion.: He appealed to the house, whether they
had:ever heard a more firm—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo.
sition)—be would repeat the expression (because without
the firmness be shoal,' not have valued it) a more limn, a
more respectful address than that which had been ale-
livered at the Bar by his Learned Friend. His Learned
Friend bail stated that be had no wish to violate the
privileges of the !mime.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that in that case he must
have misunderstood Mr. Hope. He (Mr. B.) understood
him to say, that lie felt hiniaelf compelled to defend his
character, even at the risk of violating the privileges of,
the house.
Lord BINNING said It was perfectly true that his
Learned Friend had said this ; but in another part of his
speech, lie had said that lie had no desire to offend
against the Privileges of the House. His Learned Friend
bad truly said, that charges had gone forth against
him nuder which he found it intolerable to live; charges
affecting his private character, and likely to affect his
professional prospects as a Barrister. Haul the discus-
sion of the subject out of which the busineas arose been
likely to undergo discussion this Sean:L..lm, his Learned
Friend would have forborne to write the pamphlet in
question. and would have waited for an Inquiry, the re-
sult of which could not but be most honourable to him.
llut his Learned Friend could not allow an impression to
remain which it Is mild afterwards be most difficult to
remove. The statement, of whirl, his Learned Friend
complained was not founded in fact, lie had been charg-
ed with conduct as COIIIISPI in a cause, in which, in fact,
lie was not. and never had been comma-1 (Ile Lord Bin-
ning) was ready to admit the ability w hick had been
displayed in the course of that statement by the Hot,. amid
Learued Memlier (Mr. Abeecrouik); but lie could not
Join the Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Itroug,liam) in his
eifoginin on the temper of th.• lion. and Learned 31ent-
ker. It had been stated that the ulaject of his Learned
nice, ts..s to crea.e rejialieisi.u.iinst an unfortunate
Identleaaial, ebo is io iae tried. for his life ; %heresy the
paper ai!lda L to w is signed in Jaituary, and the unfor-
tunate duel, in rsspert of which Mr. Stti:irt was tried, I
slid not tale place:ill Mardi. He (Loral li.) would feel
ashamed of 1,i.: Li•Jfllell Friend, if I:e not contra-
t the iiiiputatiou thus eat upon kin. and contra.
dict it too with kilignatioa. Ile would here hear
leave to say, that had the Honourable and Learned
Member (Mr. Abercroaiby), when his read the paper
in question to the Muse, read the whole Lai time words
connected with the signatures, even lie (Lord II.) though
no lawyer, could have informed hint of the practice
which was 1-,:y COI/1(1KM at the Scottish ir, of on,
,•ounsel from motive of courtesy, sieving the pleadings
of another.—This was the case of his Learned Fitend,
who did not even read the pleadings br signed ; neither
was it necessary for hint to have done Anti when
his Learned Friend found that his conduct hail been
misrepresented. and that the mirepresentation had been
seat forth to the world, lie was 11.111r...11y provoked, anal
lie acted wider the imuwaliate feeliti;:s ot pluvoration.
'flir character of his Learned Friend was as high as tha•
of any amain that lionsP, and lie was sure that the lieu-
tleuieusuf England would make • • allowance for the
Wounded feelings of a person of hon,,Mr. But iris Learn.
ed Friend had nut to complain merely of the speech of
the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Aheri•roiti'•v) He
Led to feel the weight of authority which belonged to
the Hon. and Learned Member for linaresbarougb (Sir