The Statesman.
London, England, 1820-06-28 00:00:00

Si ATES

LUPERIia P.4RLI.4.IIENT.

nousE OF LORDS, TVIISPAV. J NE 47.

Returns reverting the Trade to India we--e pre-
sented by Mr. Iry which were ordered to be referred
to the Committee on Trade ; also a Return, by Alrj
Fin! lyson, of Ships the Line, &c. in Commission.—;
4A-tiered to lie Noon the table.
Lome Local and private Bills were bronght up from
the House of Commons by Mr. Stuart Wortley, Sir
N. Colthtirst, Mr. Wo lehouse, and other Members.
.and read a first time.
The Loan (1.2,0(t0,0P0/.) Bill and the Funded Debt,
Charge Bill %%ere read second time, and committed
tut to-morrow.
The Court of Exchequer Bill passed through a Com-
mittee. and wis reported without amendment.
The Earl of DoNoruoNtolte gave notice of his in-
t •ntion to move the •eemid reading of the Landlords
and lenants' (Ireland) Bill to-morrow.
THE QUEEN.
The Earl Ciaay.—lly Lords, before euttring upon
the discussion of tile very painful subject now before
the House, I wish to ask the Noble Earl opposite, what
are the intentions of his Majesty's Ministers with re-
gard to the course of proceeding intended to be adopt-
ed in the fervent hope that I may receive such an
an,wer as to render it necessary for rue to proceed
with the discussion.
Th.,- Earl of LIVERPOOL.---4 have no hesitation, my
Lords, in giving the Noble Earl the information which
he desires. It has been the determination of his Ma.
jesty's Ministers, after hearing what was stated at
your Lordships' Bar by her Majesty's Counsel, and
after riving to the subject the fullest and most mature
consideration, that the only course they otight to adopt
and persevere in is that which they originally pro-
pov..l, timely, the inc eitigation of the parr-, relative
t: .induct of the Queen, by a Secret Committee.,

as they originally prup.e.4l. therefore, is their
determination, and if ttp.m that depends the bringing
forward the motion of the Noble Earl, we roust then
submit to all the incomeniences under present circutta-
%traces (the extreme heat of the weather) of a debate.
Earl Us Ey.—lu con.eiittenee of what has been now
esated by the Noble Earl, I ani under the painful ne-
cessity. toy Lords, of bringing before your Lordships
the considerations which I deem it essential to press
uoon your attention with ri•gard to this unhappy pars-
tian. I at,. the more convinced that I ought to do
thi4, berms,* circumstances have arisen which place
the question in a point of view different from that un-
der the impression of whirls this House first agreed to
refer the papers communicated from the Crown. with
rslord to the conduct of the Queen. to the investiga-
t'un of a Secret Committee. Ido not therefore, call
upon the House with a mere renewal of the arguments
w!.ich were urged by Noble Friends. as well as mysc'l.
on a Pirtier evening, and which at that time failed is;
tonvinci;:g the House of the impropriety aad inexpe-
diency of resorting to such a mole of procedure, but
with arguments drawn from the rerent cireionstances
which have attended this unfortunate ease, and which,
it my opinion, very considerably vary its hearings and
relations. My original objection. indeed, to the ap-
pointtnett of a Secret Corumittee • till remains ; awl in-
stead of diminishing, has, I think, increased in force.
ramp's-, that the appointment of rotrh a Committee
tends -directly to interfere with what ought to Ire held
sacredly free (rim all interference-=thus judicial lune-
ti !is which so peculiarly appertain to this House, and
whi•:b are so important to the 'ornerier of the Consti-
tution. It is utterly imposNible that such an investi-
gation can be entered into before a Secret Committee,'
I. Nowt, in some degree, prejudging a rase that salty
cur before us for adjudication ; fur can it be believed
t' at the Report which would emanate fr such a Com.
;flitter must not necessarily cause a hiss upon your
Lordships' minds, or at least excite a sitspieion of bias,
w' •i•:14 would hr equ ills- unfavourable to any impression
of impartial justice ? Ily object is, that justice should
L••• equally administered, and in that view I object to
VA< investigation before a Secret Committee, because,
it my opinion, it tends to obstrnet the course of that
equal jus ice. It is necessary to rural your Lordships'
reeolluction,in some degree, to what passed on a former
evening, when it was stated by a high authority is
this House, that it was impossible the' CUMPIOIIII
impeach, because upon the hypothetical case
pct of the Queen committing adultery abroad with
foreigner, she could not, according to the con-1
stru.ition put upon the Statute of Edward the Third,

I'll

artkre, by the Votes Of the flow of Consumes,
that that House base come to the determination
of postponing the appointment of a Secret Committee
for a considerable period, with I view apparently to
sonic judicial proceeding, but when (supposing that
to be the case), I observe a I; inister of the Crown sta-
ting, that it was with a view to some judicial proceed-
ing originating in this House, I should wish the very
eminent statesman who uttered this, and who is remark-
able fur the clearness of hi► views, and the perspicuity
of his language, would come here and inform us in
what way and judicial proceeding can originate here.
The consideration, however, that with regard to this
unhappy case, we may yet be called upon by that
House to exercise our judical (inactions, ought undoubt-
edly to prevent us from rendering our proceedings
liable !., the suspicion of a previous bias against the
accused. And I cannot but seriously urge your Lord-
ships to look at the state of public opinion with regard
to our proceedings in this unfortunate case. lem the
last man that Ismaili basely counsel your Lordships to
give up to public clamour what you fairly considered to
be a just and rig-lit course of proceeding. But it cans.
not be concealed that in thi,. cave public opinion is do.
cidedly against yoitr Lordships' course of proceeding.
Secret Committees, from the uses to which they have
;teen nut, le.ive become decidedly whoa : and what
is there in the constitntion of the Secret Committee
to which these papers ;:re rerei red, t!.:it can tend to
relieve it from any part of the odium to it Nieli it is ne-
cessarilysnhjected ? me Wile Friend said last night,
four of the Members Of this Con 111 l isle. are Cabinet
Ministers, who mus: of course he acquainted with the
whole contents of tlie.e papers. and t have already
made up their minds upon the subject, whilst of se-
veral of the other Members of the Committee I may
say, without meaning Li be uncivil, that they are is
the constant habit of giving their support to those
principles upon which the Ministers of the Crows
found the measures which they bring forward in Pais

be guilty of high treason. Notwithstanding the re- upwards of twelve months have now elapsed since a
spect I bear that high authority, I way be permitted to Commission was sent abroad, I know not by what
doubt this construction of the law, backed as I am in authority issued, or by whom employed, for the
my view of it by the opinion of an authority which I purpose of examining witnesses; and also that up-
respect only less than that of the Noble and Learwed wards of twelve ytontbs have even now elapsed
Lord to whom I first alluded. But, my Lords, how- since the Report of that Commission was made.—
rver this part of the case may stand, there can be no ills Majesty's Miuisters, therefore, have beets all that
datibt that such conduct as that which ha, been ins- time in possession of the whole of the evidence, which
puted to the Queen, would be a very high offence only now they have expressed a desire to refer to a
against the country and the Throne ; that it could nut Secret Committee. How happens it that they did not
be considered as an ordinary case between party and commencethisiovestigatiots lung Imirkeppeets
party ; and more especially that in such a case recri- it that, after the atiair was susceptible of negociatiun, as
mination (an almond idea of which has got abroad) f it has since appeared, the negotiation was nut long
uuld not for a moment be allowed, as nothing that she silltt commenced, when it might hare been carried on
could allege against that Illustrious Individual sitting I under much more favourable auspices, au:l when the
upon the Throne, could be allowed for a moment (un- whole affair might have been before this brought to a
I <a you were prepared to say that that individual was termination, without any of that agitation which now
I:;sworthy to sit upon the • lirone), to abate in the least unhappily pervades the public mind? All this has
from the character of her offence committed against arisen, as I before observed, from the timidity, the
the honour of the Throne, and the interests of the 4 irresolution, and the indecision of his Majesty's Mi.
(pantry. It is by no means impossible, therefore,that !sisters, who, instead of acting upon their responsibi-
ow 'night be called upon in our judicial capacity, to l lily, in bringing forward whatever measure the cir-
adjudicate awe of this nature included in a charge cunustances of the case required, threw down a bag of
of high crimes and misdemeanours, and then in what papers upon the table of this House, and endeavoured
a situation will this House be placed if it has previously to shelter themselves under the nwounnendation of a
decided as it were upon that very case which it is call- Committee of this Boone as to the measure to be pro-
ed upon to try. But independent of this consideration, I posed. The consequence of this has been, that we are
moat important as it is, I cannot bring myself to believe placed in a situation in which we are subjected to
that a Secret Committee is the place where charges of odium and disgrace, and all through that species of
the nature alleged ought to be investigated ; a Secret I conduct on the pail of his Majesty's Ministers to which
Committee deciding upon ex-party evidence, and where I have already adverted, and which proves them to be
the accused would have no opportunity of defence, or I utterly incapable of giving proper or just advice to the
oleross-exachinielg witnesses. This would not, I con- I Crown. In what way the Ministers ache Crown have
tend, be equal justice. I•know nothing, thank God, agreed amongst themselves with regard to these pro-
. f 'the case of either the accused or the accuser ; ceedings it is difficult to conjecture, especially when
tun' only anx:oos that equal justice should he we find one of their body in another place, declaring
one, and that we should not be d calle ..._ upon to to hod, in the moat solemn manner, that he would
re edge a ease upon which we may afterwards not become the instrument of bringing charges against
e called upon to adjudicate. your Lordships are the Queen, whom he described as being the grace and

'ornament of society. Sorb was the declaration •f
one of the Ministers, of one whipaitoke from his ow*
knowledge, anal on that knowledge described her u
listed to be the grace and ornament I,f every society,
and why not the grace and ornament of the 'throne of!
England? He who knew the contents of that hag has
thus spoken ; and I will ask, what can justify him, hold-
ing the opinion that he dots of the Illustrious Individual
up to this moment, in advising that those papers should
be laid before the Houser Is it to be wondered
at, that a charge so described shook' have produced
such an effect on the feelings of the country at large?
But this is nut all. The same Ministers who recommend
an accusation agoinst her Majesty—who say that they
possess information which entitles them to arraign her,
with a view to deposing her from the high and pre-
eminent station which she occupies—who approached
her, in the first instance, with a threat—who told her
that, the moment she set her foot on English ground,
proceedings should be instituted against her ; those
Ministers turn round and address her with all possible
humiliation. hoping that she would be so good us nut
to ask for any further runcession. Nay, allowing it
to be a merit in her Majesty have come to this
country, and promising, at the stone time, that if she
would only eondeseend to ask no more, she should be
acknowledged as Queen, recommended to the alien-
tiuu of Foreign Ministers, and satisfied upon every
point but the insertion of her name in the Liturgy.
Was ever a greater absurdity manifested in the conduct
of public men since the world had the misfortune to
witness their ineonsistencies ? his I state on the
authority of the Resolution presented to the Wen:—
a Resolution on which I stand as on a rui I am
told, that one of the Ministers, speaking in another
place, stated his apprehension, in language somewhat
strange, that ;f any oth,r course had been resorted to I
than that which was adopted, the Miniaters might run!
the hazard of appearing " in contrast u ith them-;
know pot what results the

. , .
liament. It is not. therefore, too notch to say that the 1 Ministers may hate apprehended from a calamity of
Report of the Committee will lie, in fact, the fleport !that kind, but I ant sure it would be attended with
of those Members of it who ate Ministers of the 11 great advantage to the country, if Ministers could be
Crown, and who, without the intersection of a Secret , prevailed upon to exhibit in contrast with themselves.
Committee, could have brought forward, upon their --(Hear, heat !)--Itut, perhaps, on a closer inspee;
own responsibility. tie measure which they rrc 11111 l nem! Coon, it may appear that they have thine so in this very
through the agency of the Secret Committee. Where, case; for if to bring an accusation themselves, and
then, is the necessity for a Secret Committee, when afterwards agree to an Address. describing the con-
all the objects of it ran be attained without the agency tiottance of that accusation, as " disappointing to the'
of a measure which only tends to curer this Louse • hopes of Parliament, derogatory from the dignity of
with twl;utu and disgrace: Let us relieve curselves the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the
from the disgrace of this measure, and thus set our• empire,- —if this be ill 1111romiitfriti•t• of the must I
selves right in public opinion. It may he said of the glaring nature, then. I say, his litiesiy's Ministers
House of Commons, that there the liepresentatives of have not escaped the charge from which one of their
the people have shown a sytiyathy with public upi- uw.t 3lembers has exp.ressed so not.-11 anxiety to re-1
ni.m, liy r.,:sing an tippet:lion to the proposed use:mare lea-e them. But here is another kstance of contrast'
of a Secret Conimitose (whielo is not yet anointed in a ith themselves: they describe the result in the lan-
that 110n.,e), which the Ministers were afraid to en. guaee I have just iitn•ted, and )et they insist that it
counter, and which has led to the recent postponement is toecessary to proceed to that result. Why is it ne-
of the measure to a still longer period. Let out your c:•ssary to proceed: I ask, what necessitv can there
Lordships he behind-hand with the House of l'ont- be, fraught with still greater evils to the country ; or
1110!IN: you have all the advantages of ancient descent, what result can be more unhappy than on:• derogatory
of wealth, and talents, and, I gope, of independence; to the interests of the Crown and the I ouutry : This
with all these advantages, let it not be said, as I fear they have stated distinctly as the saavoidaltle cliarac-
it has been said• with too much truth, that your Lord- ter of the result, whatever that result mer be. I defy
shpt are too much given to support the measures ; them to get out of this admis ' , if there be any
brott.2ht forwarl by the Nlinisters of the Crown ; let areatting in language; and I UM the more fortified in
ttle 1.111(1.1t you, in the present instance,.to negative py position when I reflect, that the individual who
from eharge, by relieritor )oursolves fro that stigma framed the Address is one of the last men from
1
which must unavoidably attach to the perseverance is whom I could expect the introduction of words
this measure of the Secret Co •ttee. All Ott,• evil! without meaning. In this inference of the Ministers,
has arisen from the conduct of his Majesty's Minis- 1 I cannot concur. If her Majesty's conduct has been
tens, who, with that timidity, irremlution, and iota,- I improper and licencious, the only course consistent
cisiton which lime invariably marked their proceed- with the honour of the Crown is to separate her
lags, have abdicated their responsibility in order to front Ilion ; if innocent, the only course is to prove
shift it upon Con 111 l ittees of Parliament, and who, that innocence. But when yen are told that in
in this instance, hale brou,4llt .our Lordships into either case the result most derogate front the dig-
a situation in which you can neither proceed with oil- of the Croe..n and the interests of the country,
safety Ivor retract with honour. I have already pro- I ask, can you pursue the inquiry ? When the Ml-
tested a ..:ainst that secret ex-.ante examination of do-I sisters of the Crown propose a measure fraught with
eurehents, which sits 031 y tern( to prejudice the case if such consequences, by their own admission, 1 must, as
the Queen; but after what has tak.ot place, it is owl a Member of this House, anxious for its dignity and
happily itopossilile to avoid an insestigati ;it is; the honour of the Crown, say to them—Take back
therefore my opin:on, that the investigation ought to, your accusation, consider ft again, and if you are then
be as palate as possible, with every facility to the ac. of opinion that the public interest requires yon to pro-
cased to bring forward evidence to rebut the charges teed, tome forward with your charges in another shape,
against her. That this requires time must undoubt- and present them to the House on your own responsi-
edly he admitted, and it is no small evil attendant upon bility.—(Hear, hear!)--These are the groundson which
this investigation, that in the mean tins the public mind I solicit you to rescind the proceeding •• a proceeding
is kept in a state of feverish agitation. I Jo not wish in which you hive already encountered so many diffi-
to fatigue your Lordships by going over the history collies, and in which the further you advance the
of the unfortunate transactions to which this imesti- ' more you will be involved in obstacles and perplexities.
gation applies; but I cannot avoid remarking, that I have no earthly interest or object in the course I am
. _ . . .
the '

pursuing, but . desire that justice should be done.
I know nothing of the accusation ; I stand here, hop-
ing, from my attachment to the Crown, that the result
will not be such as is described in the terms of the
itesolution. I stand before you perfectly impartial,
knowing nothing of the accusation, nothing of the de-
Ihre. Hut as the accusation has been made, there is
1po• way of getting off but by an impartial adjudication
niail decision. That the decision may be impartial,
Aid not only impartial, but above saspiciiin, I entreat
/sit tenviships to abandon a etrenve inconsistent with
Use best principles of the law, and calculated to revolt
the mind of the country in a case in which its feelings
are so deeply interested. As a necessary step towards
the accomplishment of an object so de-irable, I shall
conclude by moving your Lordships that the Order of
the Day be discharged.
The Earl of Livaarook.—lly Lords, I certainly
heated, as no doubt you all heard, the speech of the
Noble Lord with considerable surprise. He began
with a legal and constitutional argument against the
mode of proceeding which you have hitherto thought
Bt to adopt; he told you that the present was no
party question, and that be wished to meet it on great
and solemn principles of justice alone. How must I
have been surprised thee, how must your Lordships
have been surprised, to hear the Noble Lord conclude
his speech with one of the most Violent, personal, and
inflammatory attacks that ever has been delivered in
either House of Parliansent.—(Hear, hear! from the
Ministerial Benches.)—'l hat attack lam prepared to
repel as the Noble Loed has made it—by reference to
the comparative claims of both parties, as Siedacible
from the principles that have governed the political
conduct of each. The Noble Lord has charged us
with incapacity, and argeztl all along upon this mea-
sure as part of that system of vacillation he has been
pleased to impute to us, and a fresh instance of our
incompetency to steer the vessel of the State. 7 his is