The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

•
r. • -nes,.

ISIMEIMIli:
sss to comma' from the House! There were. it
teeing those account', enormous sinecure places
oto, to IS ~. -20 guineas a-day. The next charg.
11l (*Si. for Barracks. That was a large sum; bit'
mld hot conceive what occasion they had for marine
arks, which required an expense of more than
101. There was another charge for Contingencies,
t amounted to 12,7e61. and no satisfaction was to
,ven is the house as to the application of those sutns.
I espector General's office cost 2,9301. it was with
ar to know how all this money was applied that he
nil to submit his motion. The charges for the pre.
year should have been at least half what they bail
in other rears. The charge for provisions ought
1,,,, by half, Do account of the great fall in the
sof beef, pork, and hatter. It was no answer to
bat the fall of provisions in this country email not
sac difference in respect of them on foreign sta.
Provisions hail Mao fallen oamhalf in price in
M'conotrie.; and if not, they coahl be sent from
smutty. they had trampoline, law which they paid,
ill which provisions might be conveyed ; and. for
num there should be no alteraelow in the charge
.evidons in respect of foreign stations. The Hon.
her thins cosoownted on the monthly allowasee for
ear and tear, der , and said the reduction was not
TM. If there was 'Bathing wrong+ it the accounts
hi, h lie was going to move, why should they not
;Awed? la fact, the very concealment of those ac-
-3 by Ministers was raleolatod to excite suspicions
here Was something Wrong in them.—(hear, hear,
1---lie was resolved to oppose the grant ; sail if the
: would support Mn, he maid lae content to re.
there unfit ten o'clock imike minting, before he
i vote sway one single shilling.. That was the
if ever, in which the mismanagement of the public
v called for an examination. l'hat leas the time
dcli the miscalculations of the Chancellor Of the
ever called for an examination.—(Hear, hear,
)--lie world c-peat that the Right Hon. Oma-
n had made a mistake in his calculations. lie had
ised allying of 4,000,0110 f.„ but lie was perfornii og
sating of 2,600,011a—(1mq, hear.)—lie agreed
. opinion of the Finance Co 11111 l ittee that the ships
diary ought to be kept in good condition, and
were better than they had ever been. In these
to aural serrire was no more than pleasure p .r-
Tiwy had no foreign wars, nu veiges, no blork•
se AV.'S, no more titan they had in 1;92. Why
mould the charges for naval ordnance be doubled 1
etieT-.1 the whole of those establishments were
sp at Sorerness, for the henefit of the electors of
stosmagh. The establishments were kedt on, and
usoss iii offiae had nothing to do. He was not ig-
aof Mei-winner in which they spent their time,
A would probably have occasion to allnds to it at
retina. The charge for the establishment there
:i.ri;Oi. The Finance Committee objected to the
symeut of all ordnance craft. They mated that all
owdrr kept for souse months in those Boating ma-
tes heroine unfit for sae; yet there Inman establish-
tif fourteen kept np in spite of their Report. Mo
roar cump;ying with the Report, We vessels were
A from the Corporation of Ititeenhorongth, but were
edischeyed. He would pledge himself to prove
they were not elopktyeal one Jay in a month while
mere paid. Some perhaps were 1,111,1 favoured than
I, hecamw their interest in the borough was less.—
es those., there were nine boys employed, the ra-
id nleich might be estimated at one pound per
T each. All those belonged to the freemen of
thorough. 'rite whole expense of these Mae lows
tzitvvhf. half of shirts was estimated clew milt:—
void maintain that some of those lay for fuer °rive
et Woolwich, at a charge of ISs. per day. lie
repeat t t be could not, under, them cistern
* inithw farelielkallbance Do two.
lfetti , weisnarY WM at'eSt pleat o*
i*
01. a yeas in manielemewierg gonpowsier - -t,
stein it, and whirls could not be preservivtl. ey"
neemaitios enonei tire 20 years, nod under sorts
amulets they should not go to expense. Ile timid
• the Honor that be was not a person to- recom-
I say injarierne reductions of the Naval establish.
Remo regretted to see the Nary neglected in
anion with the Army. The Military had hero the
rim establishment in this country at the expense of
aiy, whi .11 led us to no much elory. He was not
Jed to make any invidious comparison, but if lie
he power, becectainly would give a preference to
airy. ifs tronld not reduce the number of onr swa-
g 13AM. Ile objected snore to the member of Ma-
, became they belonged to the Military, aud lie
ed iniVitary power. The Hon. Gmetleuran then
1, by way .1 aitienimeto, a aeries of Resolutions,
a we rosfd not hear iu consequaince of the noise
i prevailed at the close of his speech.
I. Clitl'lN anal Mr. CROKER rose at the save
bat on the repeated call for the latter, Sir I. Ca-
re say.

said he shonitimot oppose any motion,
iect of ss Lich was to reqnire information, if the
Gentleman rould satisfy him that Government had
41 any paper• which it was proper to communicate.
.Fered diet the miry. in question were the only
reftwel oat of tbe theorem!y the lion. tientletuan
pored fur. Ile would show that those papers were
Mon good grounds. and that it was inconsistent
proper regard to the public safety to communi
hem.—(ilear,itear.)—lie would say, 'that for the
.renty years in which the Navy Estimates were
, this W3ll the first time those returns were called
In all the fancies and imaginations of men, In all
dings of party. no one had gone so far as to de-
the returns which the lion. Member required. An
ry iiito the state of the fleet afloat load not been de-
, d during VI years, even at the time of its greatest
t'liture ; and that proceeded front an obvious policy,
t he 1146 'lentil to the safety of the country
stations to which they might he appointed, their
, and number, were previously known. But the
Gentleman would say bow mmli a return of the
Estimates betray the secrets of the fleet? The
tient/email must be well aware that, in that re.
every circumstance connected with tire mawagemeat
e thvy afloat should come out, and, it' not, he would
r'ier la;m to an lion. Gentleman near bins. He
his spoken of the pric..a paid for provision-
's.; victualling the navy; but he seems to laseetaken
",s.kri of his priers from Leadenhail-market. Did
etric to say that he understood the apnea' of tic-
,lll :to. navy, if hr would mean to establish the
st.i,,i.trd under every circumstance it might be
I!A :lot the lion. Gentlemen know that there
!teat ditf. mice in victualling on a foreign station
home one, and even a difference between every fo-
one? He woul I Again repeat, if a return of the
Estimates be made every year, the house Would bel
*I to mention its naval force, and publish it to
turtle Ststr, —(F low, bear.)—The Hon. Gentle-
had sail that navy accounts were given is Ibl7—
gars him only individual ease, and tinder
ruler cirriimstanc..s—thry were given to •
't Committee. But was it because the
ity of Government had given to them on ose
'km, that they should now be given is prospects
rY•ae, and the fleet not suffered to go to sea until
Starry had known how it was to be directed, which
d be ttir effect of acceding to the Hon. Gentleman%
lie begged the attention of, the home lissome
tratiocs "'hick he Wished to make on what had fal-
rora the lion. Gentleman, with regard* to the waxes,
'aid tare, of the navy. He had said. since 1817
of 17.11010 Una had •xpetkleil au Ilse navy wisigh
*kluge enough to build all the sl.ips in the world,

but be (Mr. C.) would atonce give him up all the papers
he asked for, if he could show him that even 7 millions
had been expended, much less 17 millions. The Hon.
Gentleman in that calculation must haveconverted stones
into wood—hr tu4st have included the building at Sheer-
ness, the building of wharfs, and the breakwater at Ply-
mouth, which cost one million ; yet all would scarcely
amount to 17 millions. From the documents which hr
held in his hand, he would read the sums voted in each
year, to show his (.l r. Hume's) &censer), ; and he would
Utke it as a favoir from him to correct him if wrong—
(I leer, hear.)
In Isl 7 . . ..€1,390.277
. . . 1 130 OW

1319 . .
1320 . . .

1,141,(1)0
1,142,000

1621
Total for five year5—Z5,901),277
Mr. HUME, in the two first items, begged leave to
eftrect the Hon. Member. The first was, 1.760,277/. the
second 1,730,0001.
Mr. CROKER.—The Hon. Member must see how
widely incorrect his statement had been, and how far
abort the expenditure had come of his 17 millions. His
Noble, to use a vulgar phrase. had now come to nine.
pence. He begged pardon of the house for having di-
gressed so much, hot the lion. gentleman's statement
required some observation He (Mr. Heine) has come
down to dictate to the house, mad tell them he would sit
till ten in the morning to eulighten their nais.inforuia-
tide. Ile did nut seem to understand what was meant
by wear and tear. He said ships lying in harbour ought
not to suffer either—(Mr. Hume—" No such thing").—
He said they had been doing nothing but giving holy-
day parti,s; bat he (Mr. Croker) wowed tell him, there
Ives more active exertion. more wear and tear for human i
labour, the last year in the Channel, than had been at I
say period during the war. A great number of seamen
were employed in cruisers, which was a most laborious
pervice, for the purpose of preventing sintiggling ; and
there coold he no stronger proof of the efficacy of that
system, and of the active exertion of the seamen. theta
{he in • in our revenue. Fur the purpose of giving'
more effect to that system, the seamen had been divided
Into small ships, from u licit proceeded tatore wear and
tear than if they were condors' to large ones, He (Ir.
Hume) had color down, in the mass sal his information,
to inform the house that six thousand marines were ens-
plotted, in what he had termed summer sailing; bet be
seemed to have forgotten his geography—did he meg
know that we required a large force to the Mediums,
swan, and another to protect our South American trade
INd he not know that Cape Horn and the Cape of
Hope must hr doubled-{bear!)—and that 'strong forgo
must also be kept on the coast of Africa to prevent the
Slave Trade? The liouottraide Cientleman ought to
have described that service is other terms than summer
and yacht soiling. Now that the bootee saw rite
ridicule of the thing he exposed—(hear, bear, bear)—
it would not wish to hear any more observations on that
subject. lie would just remind himdiplat when he, in
his speech, was apprized of the foreign stations, he threw
it also overboard. He (Mr. linine) wished an inquiry
into the tvatre+ of seamen, because the marines were in-
cluded. Whatever information hr wanted on that stab►
jest, he could have when he plea.e.l; he had it last year,
sal it was no wore this. Ile had told them that therm.
tire p:t y of the marines amounted to 350,01.10/. sir-
Anctiql from 600,1nt0/. left only 250,110111.. to pay the sea-
lint he would tell them bow tt • lion. tiewlere
proceeded in his ealonlstions to thi
eluded wages, barrack money, clothes
thee expenses, dial not properly
lived of pay, and all these he deducts."
Acme voted fur the Navy ; and it
oaq right, he could have 0.

0
1.,094,-. AM

[-stialadkoit4seost.4,..._
thew fu me. which were qu...
put together. and deducted them .
Fleet. He might, with as conch reason,
It, sum voted for the building of any_
other pnrpose. The Illonenrable 131 implorej
the house to inquire into the Itoyal Marine Deparl-•
went, because the Paymaster bail a salary of
2.7701. and be adduced that as an instance why
the House should inquire before voting the Esti-
mates. That appeared to be thr strongest point be made,
because that Gentlemen was not at sea, but resided on
hind. However, hr was ready to discuss that subject
when the Hoare should go into a Committee. The
cru4a of the Honourable Gentleman's merit had nor
appropched ; he said he would increase lime Navy and
lessen the Mlarioes. A different doctrine was Ifrl.tl first
years ago; at that time the House were of opinion that
the number should be kept as high as possible. There
was a considerable difference between a soldier and a
seaman; one was obliged to give his service for life,
and the other only for three years. 14 we were to add
two thon.aull seamen, we should be obliged to take them
from the Mariues, and thus be relinquishing a service
for life for one of three years. lie has said the pay it
SWIM) in 1792, Was di. a in.intli, and now it w •s 6/. Ins,
tid. He might have gone further back, and he. would
have found it was di. a month also in 1727; but the ,
Noble Lord (we believe, Lord Althurpe), had I. anji4ly
and fairly said th et the apparent comparison gas not
The real one. If any Gentleman consulted the Jour-
nals of the House, and saw the sums voted in the
year 1792, he would be surprised to see the little
'difference between, them and those for this year.
—He would state a fact or two to guide them.-
111 1792 the sum voted was 1,500.000/. ; there were sab-
ierplent grants of bnfi,tlo4l/.. 131,009/.. and 430,901,/.,
which made a total of 3,166,000/. for the N:ivy Esti-
mates in 1792. For this year they amounted to 3.3141,10nn1.
' which would consid.•rately lessen that in 1792, if the
price of provisions, and the difference between the two
periods, were taken into account. The Hun. Gentleman
had complained of the appointment of naval officers to
be Colonels of Marines, but he (Mr. C.) contended it
Was a bond of union between the army and navy, and it
was essential to the honour and dignity of the service
that his Majesty should he enabled to reward meritorious
officers by appointing them to honourable situations.-
11e would give the Wouse an opportunity of judging of
the distinguished char,eters who filled those situations
111 the marines, by reading to them the names of the
eOninianders sinee their institution—Admirals Lord
Forbes, Howe, Harry, Brielport, and last, and long way
he continue so, Earl St. incest, most ennobled, and
raised to the peerage, forming a bright galaxy, which
sheds a lustre un the country. lie contended that it
would be injurious to the State if they should disclose
the circumstances connected with the Navy, which, in
time of war, would enable the foe to discover all our
naval movements. Our ancestors had always guarded
against It, and he entreated the House, on the present
occasion, not to deviate from the plan pursued for so
many years.—(The lion. Gentleman sat/lowa amidst load
applause.)
Mr. BENNErgare the Hon. Gentleman who bad lea
sat down much credit for the ingenious and dexter**,
speech he had made; bot the sarcasms which he had
thrown out upon his friends, both io that House and
elsewhere, were quite uncalled fur. He begged to tell ;
the House that it was no novelty to the Constitution, kit
made to the measure of his Ham. Friend. By the gr.
port.of the L'eutmittee that had beep matte in ItsiS,•the
principle was acknowledged. He would tell the Hew
Gentleman, that the principle of the Constitution was
violated by permitting Ministers to apply hue publi
looney e they thought 61. If Lis Ham r riCilil'S

The numbers on the division srere—For the amend-
ment,34.—Against it, UK—Majority 3 zAinst it. 114.
On Our re-admis•inn into the liallerc, we found the
hawse in a Committee of Supply, Mr. iLItbODICN in the
Chair.
Sir J. OSBORNE was proceeding to more the Es-
timate•.. ilia; first resolution %vv., ertt 21,000 men
he employed in the sea service for the current year, in
cludiere !OM turrinrt.
. . .

sail!. he most again a•!: shat were the
circinuststiers of the country witit•ll re.ptired that there
shonld he 2,900 men now Inure than in 1t517, fur the
same purpose? The reductions that had teem made in
the Navy were not owing to the econwity of iittistecs,
hat to time death of Itinaparfe. All their promises cd
economy h ..1 not protlured one shilling. The. number
of the msrines be thieight dispropn. tionate pith the
number of seatnen, and he should, therefore, propose
All a:nendment to time resolution that 19,151 K) men br
sulistitisted for 2l,lileb
Sir ti, CO'.'loll7stN explained the °hi-et of keeping
np the force .if marines in particular. When the former
war broke omit they seffereil materially, owing to the
want of All efficient marine force. They were obliged to
get landsmen, who, when they went wit on service, were
fors time useless, owing to their being sea-sick.—
With the view of •voi.ling such ditlieulty on any fotnre
occasion, it because desirable to keeputp the• marine
force; and this they were enabled to at no particularly
increased expense, as the marines perfeeruted military
duty in the garrisons, arsenals, Ste, When this stilsj et
was agitated, two or the .e years ag the house took this
view of time toes/inn ; and it was on such grounds shit
the addition to the marines of 2,0110 men was agreed to.
As to the number uf seamen, there were se mreely as many
as the service required; there was a diffienity in twinning
some ships; and this fact showed that more men were nut
asked for than w. r • really reqnireil.
Sir I. COFFIN said a few words in explanation of
what had fallen from bins on a pres•reding night.
sir. G. KENNET called on lion. Meaiber% to ctan:l by
their constituents awl the people of England, in refits-
ing to vote for the supportof a greater neetber of men
for the sea service now than there were in 17.17. He
wished to God the people of England wind I look into
that House. He wished to God they conid get posses-
sion of the list of Gentlemen on the other side, who
supported the Ministers in such measures, that they might
post them through the country.—tie s: Mei upon the
/louse to do their duty. according to the promises they
bad made out of doors.

Sir IiEI)HIiE CLERK 'aid, that if Hon. Members
would look to the other parts of the Navy li< imaresthey
would see there was a rdnetioo equal to tNo lions.—
(Hear. hear.) He hope! the house would not listen to
the su'rgestion of the Hon. MI-tuber for Aber:leen to re-
, dace any part of that useful body of men, the Royal Ma-
rines. _

Mr. HUME referred to the printed eetimstes whteb
stated the naval expenditure for 1517 at s,B7s4llooL—for
the present year 4,490,00 f.; so that where tie Hon
Member got his two millions diminn.ion from he did no:
know. Had it not been for the death of 114attparte, h.•
quesOoned whether there would have been any redaction
at all.
Mr. CROIiER said that the Hee. Member bati.enly
Ade a trilling 114;st Age of 471.uooL—(h YAW aid is)angil)
—having invlnded in th • Expenditure of 184 that
amount whirls was 4.11 wired fin OH Stores.
. .

31r. HUllift plritargi bium.lf to •be ilotise. tart br
'l4d puted the figures Accurately u they .yee

. _ .
• the Hori. tientietnan leave the 1,1,m,r," " That there be laid betore the souse, 31. r• I"
his slim. He had in• stating thepriceret irhich tlif pr06•1.,4s Av..rr• filen:shell ..erv.nz 'h
thee, shoes, meat, and for lion-tit:rig 'the Ilrftieh Naiy for the rears ISI3. ;saan`re
tperly come under the 1:317. Itt2l. mar/ the amonnt of 091..111,4e dare rations !"1.1. 11:''''
actesi man the wages In Inv seamen, eflol also hair 54.350/. for victualling the "1 1"e `'t
if fhille 041111% had net Navte was twhe IN out." men evispi
alishiii.Mrelle &sea/ ...##‘. li ' ~imvo_i,
.a. '11!•411.
. .._ 410110061, • totallittet teat Sor if the . ; t 1114tur war&
;:heealsillodraal, All. to rrivataarr whatever. ti tbe applies ion, a " 11".11
'fiat Aerie, be isati--4sugraismat ? i ine as his
from the pay of the Mr. eltOK Itit said Ito holulreadcalaine.l big view i"l-f.t;',4 `i
.eon, bare deducted of the subject; and he wasuro also „mid aoter.. efllll.l 110 v
of elmrches, or any mit him to speak twain. .
'' . , vai Lod all
e Gentleman implored The b. n
then divided on this motion:— •• twie
,firs
• ..I ~