The Statesman.
London, England, 1824-02-04 00:00:00

THE STATESMAN

and the independence of thoie rising States should be pro-
tected, he was yet to learn, why, in their Infant state, we
had not interposed between them and the blows of their
enemy theshield which it wasour duty to interpase between a
weaker and a stronger power. Connected with the sv-tema-
tic interference with the liberties of every Frtate in Europe.
by the great Continental Powers, appeared to he a most
iniquitoussystem of exclusion with respect to trade, and
with a determination to exclude the manufactures and the
produce of this country from the whole continent of Et-
rope, as far as lay within their power. From 'that circum-
stance an additional motive for our cultivation of a con-
nection with the South American States might be deduced.
When it should be known that forty years ago the 'popula-
tion of North America was only three millions; that it is
at present ten millions: that according to the latest arums
the population of South America amounts to 16 millions,
independently of the Brazils, which contain four millions;
taking then those 16 millions, and calculating their increase
of population upon the same ratio as that of the United
States, it might he expected that in forty years the popu-
lation of South America would exceed 50 millions; and
when it should be further known that that population was
a population of a peculiarly consuming character with re-
ference to European manufactures, of which it was calcu-
lated that each individual consumed to the amount of two
pounds sterling per annum; when all things should be
known, would the importance of our friendly connection
with, and our protection of those infant but rising
States be denied ? Yet, in order to obtain all the ad-
vantages that might thence result, he would not con-
sent to abandon that high and honourable course which
this country ought to follow; at the same time he declared
that he had yet to learn what were the reasons that pre-
vented us from having embraced an earlier, and conse-
quently more favourable moment for taking that step so
necessary to the credit and honour of the country. But
Great Britain was not only interested in the establishment
of the independence of the South American Governments,
but it was equally her interest, indeed it became her duty,
to see that it should be established as early as possible, and
that it be firmly and immovably fixed. On that part of the
Speech he had felt it his duty thus to speak his sentiments.
There remained many other topics, but which did not so
imperatively call for notice. One of these was a subject al-
luded to by a Noble Lord who had preceded him, with
whom he agreed that it was a topic of peculiar delicacy;
and he further fully concurred with that Noble Lord, that
with reference to that subject much ought to be done, yet
that as little as possible should be said. On the other sub-
jects touched upon in the speech, many other opportunities
and occasions for discussing them would occur. He should
not therefore now dilate upon them. But there was a sub-
ject of peculiar interest and importance, on which lie could
not be silent—be meant Ireland. He fully agreed with
the Noble Lord who had seconded the address, that a good
deal had been done towards effecting her tranquillity ; but
he wished that the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment of that country, could have held out a prospect of a
remedy for evils, the root of which lay much deeper than
was generally believed. On two points connected with
that country, namely, tithes and the police, lie was free to
admit that much benefit had been conferred upon Ireland
by the Acts of the last Session. With respect to tithes, he
agreed with the Noble Lord that a great opening had been
made, and an approximation between the parties previously
opposed had been effected—lie trusted those desirable ef-
forts would be found to result more generally; yet he hoped
that other and additional measures would be taken to en-
sure the happiness and tranquillity of that important por-
tion of the empire. He had now nothing further to say;
it was not his intention to move any amendment to the Ad-
dress; however, he could not but lament that Ministers
had not more broadly and candidly avowed the sentiments
by which lie was sure they were actuated.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL.—After the able manner in
which the different topics referred to in the 'loyal Speech
bad been treated by the Noble Lord who bail moved the
Address, and the no less able speech of the Noble Seconder,
he should not have felt himself called upon to follow them
on those various points; but as the Noble Marquess who
hail just sat down had thought proper to advert to those
topics, he (Lord Liverpool) could not suffer the Douse to
come to a vote upon the subject without replying to the
arguments of the Noble Marquess. On the first point lie
could satisfy their Lordships that there existed no Mlle
rence of opinion betaeen hint and the Noble Marquess
He would say, not for the purpose of declamation however,
that there was no period of this country's history could be
fixed on in which it had enjoyed a greater state of prospe-
rity than it did at present.—(Bear. hear.) He fully con-
curred with the Noble Marquess, in rejoicing that the dis-
tress which had existed iw agriculture li td been removed
by the operation of natural causes alone. Noble Lords
would recollect how his Majesty's Ministers had been
pressed for legal enactments to secure that very desirable
object ; it was therefore a most material and important
circumstance, that the recovery from distress of the agri-
cultural interest had been effoisted, not by Acts of Varna-
tnent, but that it had grown out of natural CallgeS only. It
was well known to the country, and had been most ably
stated by the Noble Mover of the Address, that during the
arthotts struggle in u bids we had been engaged we could
not have made the extraordinary exertions we did, and
which were so imperatively called for, but at an immense
expense, nor without incurring a great aright of debt, the
pressure of which had been afterwards severely felt. But
similar effects had always been experienced, even after the
moat successful wars. But even the expenditure from
which those effects proceeded had brought compensa-
tion to the country, for some of its amount, as hail been
proved by the Account laid upon the table at different
times, by which it was proved that during the last war
agricultural and other interests of the country had in-
creased in a most extraordinary degree. When the great
expenditure was stopped—when a great number of our
Army and Navy had been thrown beak upon the popula-
tion—when the demand for various articles of produce and
manufacture bad suddenly ceased, it was natural to expect
that great and extensive distress and poverty should be
felt. But independently of the distresses usually attendant
upon a transition from a state of war to one of peace, there
was another difficulty which this country had to encounter
—the return to metallic currency. Although he felt con-
vinced that the great and successful struggle in which we
had engaged could not have been made without a sus-
pension of cash payments, yet he felt also that it was
our duty to return to a metallic currency as soon as possible,
and that this should be effected by preserving also the
national faith. We had recovered from those great and dis-
tressing offsets. We had returned to a metallic currency
without a breach of faith with the public creditor. He
thanked God that we had so returned to it, and that we bad
not only survived our distresses, but that we bad attained
to a height of prosperity never before equalled. Our con.
duct throughout the whole of those affairs showed that the
integrity we bad maintained—the justice of the principles
on which we had acted—the good faith we had maintained
with the public creditor, had enabled us to overcome .all
our difficulties, and trade and agriculture had completely
recovered. (Hear, hear !) He had felt himself called upon
to allude to this point, because he thought too much could
sot be said upon it. Although he did net consider it neces-
sary to follow the Address through all its branches, yet to
that part of it which apeaksof our internal state being more
satisfactory than that of oar foreign relations, and particu-
larly with reference to a subject so much discussed during
the last Session of Parliament (the invasion of Spain
might be necessary for him to advert; it•srould patin),e' be
. it
sufficient for Wail° say, that every Wool abich bad been
then stated by himself and the Noble Friends who sat near
bins, bad been more than proved by the events that bad
since occurred. (Hear, hear !) He bad deprecated the in-
vasion of Spain, not merely on the abstract principle that

.no country had a right to interfere in the internal affairs of
another, bat that be thought France had made out no case
fur her particular interference. He bad stated also that
Spain ought to be left to herself; but in stating so be had
added, that when the danger of interference did arise, it was
the duty of those at the Bead of the Spanish Governnient
to make concessions—not to France—but to Spain herself,
by consenting to such a modification of the Constitution as
would remove the objections raised against it. We
gave our advice to that effect ; and he would ask those who
had then been of the popular party in Spain.whethee they were
not now sorry that they had not taken that advice? Was there
any man who. viewing the manner la which the French army
had been received in Spain, would now say that lie was sorry
we had not interfered I for it was now evident that the great
loess of the Spanish people were opposed to the Constitution,
for they hailed the French soldiers as deliverers. There were
no people so jealous of foreign interference as the Spaniards.
In his (Lord Liverpool's) speech last April he said, that hew'
ever much the Spaniards hated foreigners, they hated the Con-
stitution much more ; and it had since been proved, that the
Constitutional party in Spain was very small when coal•
pared with the population of that country. Ile consi-
dered the conduct of the French Generals. the French Rulers,
and above all of that Illustrious Prince who was placed at the
head of the invading army, to have been mild, moderate, and
just ; for he (Lord Liverpool) would say, however lie migat
have condemned the invasion of Spain on principle, yet would
he say of that Prince, that the ability, moderation, and discre-
tion which marked his career in thatceuntry. gave great hopes
of his governing with equal talents and dispositions that coun-
try over which it was not too much to say he was destined
probably, and of right, to reign. The efforts of France had
been directed to check the spirit of Ultraism, and to assist that
party which in Spain was opposed to that spirit ; and with re•
sped to our noim-interference to prevent such results, he would
declare that he had no more notion of sending British bayonets
to make people free against their will. than he had to assist in
continuing them in slavery.—(Cheers.) He came next to a sub-
ject of coesiderable importance. The Noble Marquess had said,
that he did not disappprove of what had been said in the
Speech, hut wished that more had been said ; but in a general
expose of that nature, he (Lord Liverpool) could not see
what more could be said. During the last war, their Lord*
ships would recollect a considerable difference of opinion
had existed whether we should embark fully in the cause of
Spain, by assisting her to expel the French, or whether we
should limit our assistance to her South American par
sessions, and leave the cause of Spain to herself.—The
latter was not the course followed by this country.—
We entered heart and hand into the war in Spain, and by
the efforts, the talents, and the brilliant achievements of
his Noble Friend near him (the Doke of Wellington),
the contest was ultimately brought to a fortunate condo-
lion. Before that war had finished, the Spanish SouthAmc-
rican Colonies had declared their own independence; then
also, we offered to Spain our mediation; but which she,
unfortunately for herself, declined; bad she done other-
wise—had she availed herself of our proffered mediation—
she might have saved half her Colonies:—by following a
different course she hail lost the whole. This point na-
turally led him to that part of the Speech which referred
to the South American Governments ; we have taken the
first rep towards establishing a lasting connection with
them, by sending out Consuls thither. The object of the
Speech which their Lordships had heard that day was to do
away the impression that we were under obligations to
Spain or to any other country or power not to take any
step towards recognising the independence of time South
American States; we are totally free and unfettered, and
we postpone the recognition of those States only until we
shall be assured that the Governments of them arc fixed
and settled; and the principal objects of the Commissioners
whom we have sent out are to ascertain and report to
Government every thing connected with the state or those
countries; for however independent those States may be
de facto, still there must and will be felt ambiguity and
uncertainty .respecting them until the Governments
shall he settled. On another subject (our West
India Colonies) he hoped we should do all that
we owed to all the great Interests involved—that which
we owe to the Negro population—that which we owe to those
whom we had encouraged to become settlers in the Colonies,
that which we owe to this country—in short, to all the
great interests concerned, that we should not enter upon
the discussion of that subject with heat or intemperance.
—(hear, hear.) —With respect to Ireland, every thing
said by the Noble Marquess was entitled peculiarly to con-
sideration. For the evils complained of in Ireland it was
very difficult to say what remedy ought to he applied ; and
it was to be lamented that those evils were not of a tangible
nature, but of a description that could be rendered sus-
ceptible of cure by the operation of time. One of the
measures referred to by the Noble :Marquess (the Tithe
Composition Bill) had been considered as calculated to
produce an effectual cure for the disorders of that country,
and had iu its partial operation met the approbation of
the Noble Mai-pies.. The other, respecting the Police, was
equally approved of. To correct the evils of the tithe
system was doubtless a work of importance ; and in consi-
dering. that subject it was necessary to recollect that the
tithe system of Ireland differed materially from that of this
country. In correctingthe evils of that system it was neces-
sary that the interests of all the parties concerned should be
kept in view, and amongst these the rights of the Church must
' not be overlooked ; for all rights, of what nature soever, must
be respected. With these feelings he was fully impressed
when he introduced to their Lordships the measure to which he
had just referred ; he had candidly admitted that it might not
be efficient at once, but that like all other great measures it
might require amendment. He could then say with pleasure,
that the success of the measure. notwithstanding all the dila-
collies that were opposed to it, had very far exceeded the most
sanguine expectations that had been formed of it. It would be
found that out of 9133 instsuces in which it had been attempted
to ha tarried into effect, the measure was inforeed in 216 in•
stances.—(clear, hear.) Many of these too in districts which
had been previously much disturbed, and in which the disturb•
slices hail been ascribed to the Tithe system. What other
measures ought to be adopted on the subject it was not for him
to say, hut he would add, that every measure adopted for Ire'
land should be in the genuine spirit of the Constitution, in order
that it should produce great and lasting benefits to the coun
try.—(Cheers.) • f
Lord HOLLAND—Although be did not feel himsel
called upon to offer for their Lordships' adoption any other
resolution than that which was before their Lordships, ye
before lie should sit down he felt it his duty to state to
their Lordships, that the general tone and spirit of the Ad-
dress was not that which in time present state of the coon-
try, with respect to the other parts of Europe, ought to be
adopted. He felt happy in acknowledging that the inter-
nal prosperity of the country was much more flourishing.at
•the present than at any period that could be recollected.
He was willing to go further, and to say that that state was
owing to the firmness of Parliament, and particularly in
passing the Act for the resumption of Cash Payments; but
he was not prepared to say with the Noble Lord who
moved the Address, that the merit of all those desirable
effects ought to be given to Ministers. When the country
at former periods was in a state of distress. and when it
had been so by the Noble. Earl's (Liverpool) own acknow-
ledgment, what bad beer that Noble Lord's language ?
Why, that at one period he threw the blame upon the
failure of the harvest, at another time too large a number
of people had been produced—(A langl)—andat another,
that the harvest had been too abundant: Was he (Lord
Holland) therefore, to be obliged to join in compliment-
ing the Noble Emil for having attempted to root out of the
breasts of the young men of this country the passion of
-love—and for implignintthe beneficence of Providence?
the thought it was not fair to compliment Ministers upon
these heads. With respect to the repayment of the Aus-1
trian Loan, Ministers were not entitled to all the credit
they•claimed; for he was convinced that not a shilling of
that debt would hare been paid but for the uoise made
about it by Noble Lords at his (Lord H.'s) side of the
-House ; and it was thus proved, that he and his Noble
Friends might be sometimes in the right. Extraordinary

eirmth bet
"u"
tta he hand. establishment.
ofi
ts,a laeesas it might appear, he fully concurred in the propriety or
i it
ncreasing oaraage
placed
pat
had arisen which demanded that incr.ase
__The Noble low here, in reference Si) the state of one
uill
il 1 try
West India Colonies. repeated his u illingneas to enatilt.
Government to secure those au ttlementa by an increase of
the military establishments in them. Ile doubted. that in
the event of an extensive revolt of the Negroes
in the Island of Jamaica, the troops would he
found to be in a sufficient state of preparation_
that instead of keeping them in the forts—on the
sea shore, he would recommend their being sent into the
interior—to the Blue Mountains, for example, where they cmda
have the benefit of the springs, and recommended for imitation.
in such 'disastrous uccurence, the conduct of Major Gen. W.;•
pole in the Maroon war, to which gallant officer he paid a h;
ah
compliment. The situation in which this country stood in
la tion to foreign powers seemed to him not to warrant the m ry
flattering picture drawn in the Speech ; a situation which, if
not pregnant with the most dangerous consequences to this
country, was at least new and awful in the lii,thest degree._
Without at all talking of the merits of the Constitution of Spain
without takinginto considerstionwhether it was a democratic.%
monarchical, or despotic, there was one fact whizh could not
be denied, namely, that at that moment France had military
possession of Spain. It might !Hive been prudent, nay. it
might have been meritorious in Ministers to hare observed a
strict neutrality, to have done nothing to prevent that minter •
occupation ; but he confessed that he did not think the Sthi,
of the political horison was so satisfactory, nar that the ark
of Ministers were so wise, as to warrant the Noble 1,.,rj
coming down to the Gouge. and stating that there was natter
for congratulation. Ile maintained that the whole situation of
Europe mutt give anxious apprehension to every CniM:h
Putting aside for the moment the feeling of sympathy (a forl.
fug which he trusted lie should always have.) for the friends
of freedom all over the wort), and taking up the quest:on
merely as it affected British interest, by that alone he
should be able to show that the present situation
of Europe was highly dangerous to British interests
No Mats could deny, that for the last seven or right years
the ancient policy of the country was departed from, and
that that departure led to as event which it haul always
been the policy of the country to prevent—namely, tilt
possession of Spain by France—a possession which had al.
ways been, previously to 1815, considered tube inconsistent
with the security and happiness of Great Britain. That
event had taken place; and it was therefore the duty of
those who guided the Counsels of Great Britain to patio.,
consider, deliberate, and determine, what ought to be done.
He would ask what had been the ancient policy of thin
country? It had been always thought to be the true vo-
licy of this country to prevent a preponderating power on
the Continent of Europe, and more especially in that put
of Europe whose shores were nearly opposite to our own,
and from which, with more effect, an attempt might be
made either to humiliate the character, to threaten the
security, or to paralise the efforts of (heat Britain ; but
that preponderating power was now created by the union
of France and Spain under a Bourbon. He cared not who-
ther it was designated the union of the Holy Apostolic
Church—the union of the King of France and Spain—
the great nation—the empire of Napoleon Bonaparte—
or the Hoiy Alliance. He objected to the exist-
ence of such a Power. It was that universal em-
pire which this country had always put forth its strength
to counteract, and which it was now the duty of Mi-
nisters to do all in their power to put an end to. The
Noble Lord who had moved the Address haul alluded to
the French Repablican Decree of the 19th of November.
That decree held out a promise of assistance to all perso is
who would wish to overturn the respective Governments
nnder which they live; and such a decree was acknow-
ledged on all hands to be a just and legitimate ground of
war. Why was it so ? WAS it because it was a denunciation
of certain principles ? No, because it avowed a right of
interference with the subjects of another country. if the
people of France say we can recommend one form of Go-
vernment or the other—if they attempted to introduce the
most beautiful Government in your country, it was an,
aggression on the part of the people of France, on the
independence of the country, and a justifiable cause of war,
no matter whether it possessed monarchical or densocrdti-
cal principles. What was the case at present? not that
there is a decreee of the 19th of November, lint the
King of France and the Holy Alliance are acting on the
same principle, in interfering with the indernd:nre od
a powerful people, and in bring now in possession of
their country. To him there was no difference between
the effects of a league, and the ambition of an individual.
It had ever been the object of Great Britain to prevent such
aat ate of things. The facts themselves held out a le,coo
to England, and the Sovereigns of Europe admonished it
by their conduct. There were formerly in this country
two great political parties of Whig and Tory, differin:
on most subjects, but uniting on those principles to which
he was then drawing their Lordships attention. The
Whigs thought that the people of England should form a
part of a confederacy to preserve an equality of power
in Europe;—such was the principle on which they acted
in the time of Lord Somerset, in the days of King Wiliam;
in latter times, under Lord Chatham and in Lord Chat-
liaus's son's wars. It was now time, it seemed,
to have some other sprem, for the policy was to hold aloof
from all consideration of the state of Europe. The albite
of Europe held the scale of nations; one party thought
ibis country should maintain the balance of that power,
and the other, that it should have influence to turn it;
since ISIS, the balance was totally disregarded, and alio'
the Groat Powers of Europe set themselves up in a rhitr, •
tion, it was shown that England could not be a party to any
war. The late Secretary of State, when he was negol
f
sting a peace with Napoleon, found it necessary to orinta,
confederacy, with the view of preventing France being.s.
Europe, or at least to England, a formidable object. IS I
when in consequence of events which he should ever
gret, France received the position of being the notnit.
that confederacy, it was this country against whom in:,
counterpoise was raised. The King of France, whether
fe,,
cidentall yor by design, became a meinher of that co,nt.:
racy. What was the meaning of that? Again.atn_e!,,fri
was it directed ? The meaning sily was, that those
sons invested with power over mankind, shoal
them
as creatures of their will. One of that hloaar,cviih
steps was a treaty—an oligarchical treatyf
State 13i'
Holy Alliance. The then Noble Secretary o
that all that was harmless ; but that the trraty was ello.
such a shape, that according to the Constitutions ft:
country, his Britannic Majesty could not becoment in p
ii
This, though an objection of power.
Constitutione°a
real principle of the question ; because
.theßutthem,
this country recognizes no act of the descriptemn.
in
sir
principles of the confederacy came soon to b
explaineddoetrine of th
culars. They were, in sooth, the monarchicalt
I timacy, hered,
right of one man to govern many.
It
was
leg
the will of Olt
tary legitimacy, to be maintained in defiance
people, or under the gross misconduct of the Sovereign. I
ithre
they took Naples for example, Lord Castlereagh said, wad s
ignedintained
cot
gard to that country, if the treaties whic
ma
Mined principles which the other partiesh tothem
he, as a Minister of this country, could not
.. g
Naples._
o along
them. It was true that the situation of the King of
f colda
the remoteness of the place, did render some degree oßr
ta.o.
between the relations of that country and of Great
as „,
The revolution was so rapidly put down that. thedrew that
t.
time for remonstrance ; but it must be admitted'
to
of Naples being in custody of Austria was not
__nwever.
the honour or the interest of Great Britain. II
and fern
,principles on which it was done led to greater evils,
aggressions on other Statesit led to an interference
to observe, the n
& Portugal.TheNobleLord proceeded
not to what the interferenceof Russsia was owing.r whether
nem'
healer
was to uphold the principles of legitimacy, .n_er,..
was the same principle by which it contrived,_ tb.
1), !s 130
n",
*ace in Poland, to appropriate the best partdot lat
their snail
Ito itself. The Sovereigns of Europe issue
rs as'
,alis against Sain, and called on al owe
race, e'
latent. The Prince of the Bourboni—loltpkat

a COlllelleraCy to pi-earl-Tv -•••-
•ope ; —such was the principle on which they acted
time of Lard Somerset, in the days of King Widiane
er times, under Lord Chatham and in Lord Chat-
son's wars. It was now time, it eremeLL
re some other sys'em, for the policy was to hold aloof
II consideration of the state of Europe. The atbite'
ope held the scale of nations; one party thought
inntry should maintain the balance of that power,
le other, that it should have influence to turn it; but
ISIS. the balance was totally disregarded, and „Lea
sat Powers of Europe set themselves up in 4rld:rl-
- was shown that England could not be a party to any
The late Secretary of State, when he was reoti•
a peace with Napoleon, found it necessary to form I
deracy, with the view of preventing France being to
or at least to England, a formidable object.
lint
in consequence of events which he shout,' ever re
France received the position of being the nominee
onfederacy, it was this country against whom al
erpoise was raised. The King of France, whether a'
tally or by design, became a memher of that conic.l,
What was the meaning of that? Against eh°
t directed ? The meaning simply was, that those ;ter-
invested with power over mankind, should hold thaw
was a treaty—an oligarchical treaty—with
mums of their will. One of that Moaarch's not
Alliance. Tbe then Noble Secretary of State sail
ill that was harmless ; but that the trraty was Is
a shape, that according to the Constitution of th.•
ry, his Britannic Majesty could not become a parlF
though an objection of power. contained lb"
ainciple of the question ; because the Constitution
ountry recognizes no act of the description. But theta'
iples of the confederacy came soon to be explained in cir
t. They were, in sooth, the monarchical doctrine of
tl
of one man to govern many. It was legitimacy, hered•
egitimacy, to be maintained in defiance of the will of tbf
the
e, or under the gross misconduct of the Sovereign. I
ook Naples for example, Lord Castlereagh said, with re
to that country, if the treaties which he had signed coo
1 principles which tee other parties to them mainbaineJ
a Minister of this country, could not go along
lag
It was true that the situation of the King of Neples.ac
Imoteness of the place, did render some degree of coldne
en the relations of that country and of Great Britain.
evolution was so rapidly put down that there was scarce)
for remonstrance : but it must be admitted that the f
iples being in custody of Austria was not likely to air
onour or the interest of Great Britain. However.
i pies on which it was done led to greater evils, and ford
.ssions on other Statesit led to an interference with Spa`
rtugal.TheNobleLor.l proceeded to observe, that he kne
what the interferenceof Russiawas owing. Whether
to uphold the principles of legitimacy, or whetherinter
the same principle by which it contrived, by
in Poland, to appropriate the best part of that 000_1
ielf. The Sovereigns of Europe issued their analb
again Sain, and called on all powers to ss
The Prince of the Bourbons—of dltat race, art