The Statesman.
London, England, 1819-06-08 00:00:00

TITE STATESMAN,

the Crowe. It created three or fear leerstive sies-
tas, le every county through the kingdom. The.
were the Dletethetwe of Stamps. the Retain,' of
Lied Tits sod Assessed Times; the chiefs of which
departmeets always acted by deputy, and took •
me *feeble tlesesselves, except signing receipts •
for their Wades. Those Gentlemen's emoluments
oinnented to diffeeent proportions, from 7001. up to
or 60001. • peer. Thew employments were not
to be roasidered as freeholds or tenures for life, end
instead of suck enormees emoluments, many elSeient
persons might be found, if not the persons grow in
oboes employments, who would be well satisfied to
do the dirty et solar* from 4001. to 1001. a year,
by which one-half or two.thirds of the present ea-
rwig by poundage might be saved to the country.--
There were various oilier branches in the details of
Retenee Collection, wherein important seviegs might
he effected, if his Majesty's Ministers were honestly
inclined to do their dui) ; end Nothing should hove
tempted him to trespass on the attention of the House
by going into tech details at the present moineat,
but for the defiance held out from the opposite side
-of the House, as if himself and his friends were mere
lava of words and paper without soy real (friends for
their representitions. All lases ought to undergo a
dimiestion which might be In some proportion to the
distiaation of prices for our ineoufaciares and pro.
deco. For until the currency of the country shall
have reached some point of stability, it was impost'.
hie for the Legislitare accurately to know what
es& to he dee*. Bet in one point his opinion was
settled, and ho was sere it was riot angular, namely.
that he should never met satisfied until be should see
a gegenl reduction of salaries and sinecures, and the
taxes clutch supported them, to which, he was sere,
was owing the rite ow all the Necessaries of life.—
Bet could be hope this from the lion. Gesttlessen
opposite ?—No ; they might beat up for recruits
inneagst the 360 Gentlemen of that Hesse oho sup.
portal them by their votes on a recent occasion.—
They might talk as they pleased, bet they dared
sot attempt the system of retrenchment which
their ditty to their country demanded. For, in
attempting such a system, they dared not face
theft own conferees in office; they were not in
possessine of the love and affection of the country,
latch could support them in seek as attempt, until
their conduct should entitle them to look to the coo.
ideoce of the osentry. lie warned the filuLle Lord not
to droved epee the seeeess of one gentian on a
former night. The Noble Lnrd would be grossly
disappointed if be Imagined those Geatimeen, who
supported him by their votes on the °cession he al-
luded to, would consider themielve, bound by that
vote to follow blot through his whole course. He
'would ask ever one of those Gentlemen—he would
ask the Noble Lord himself--whether he tbneght the
People of this country were able I. pity more taxes
than were already imposed se them? or whether to
add to their berates it the 'Meet proposed was any
thing short of cruelty and injustice? W' ether there was
any fair ground of teasou to justify such Niftier's, and
whether flatting eurcemetartees did not rather forbid
than recisions,' such it cosset?? What had the No.
ills Lewd to support him Its the necessity of the OM-
Mr bet • prateirow assertion that there most
he • Sinking Fend of Liss milliees, sad test this
sum must, at all hazards, be wrung from the
People ? Did he recollee* that Mr. Pitt, who
was the permit of the Sinking Feed, which was to
effect swell miracles in reducing the debt of the
Pantry, did not think it necessary to propose seep
a sum, bet rieneidined 300,0001. soffit-I.ot ender '
m debt of M 10,000,0001? He contended that this
sum would ho quite 'efficient to give an adequate
Seeking Fred for the debt. Thu Right Hon. Gent.
had contemplated a feCOMPIIte to the leonine Tax,
in ewe of any mew war ; bat the only made to ren-
der sects • reenreence effective, and enable the town.
try to bear the burden, would he to relieve it from
lasation as leech as possible in time of puce, mad
thus amble the People to recruit their means by en
embarrassed industry. The Right lion. Gentler's..
well loww there were many taxes imposed dyeing the'
we,, god still resisting, which, so far from inereasing,
ale only decreased Its revenue, bet lessened mate
Celle the consumption of th.• artiel•-• on which thee
were impend, to the great injury of commerce end
manufactures. Such were tie tases on win,, tee,
glum, sod some other articles he could enumerate
He begged to apologize for thus long uletrounin4
Hesse, hot he fel, it his duty to Mc -en, anent
Me. HUslilS:‹lN Nid, his Right Ilon. Friend
(the Ctianc, ler of the &chequer) hail felt it hi.
dimly, before he brought forward his Resolutions, to
Ivy before the Horse a fair and explicit statement of
the situation of the country, in order to show the in-
dispeneible necessity of calling for further rapport ;
end he (Mr. H) indulged the hope, that after so fair
sod candid as explaoetion of that necessity, Geniti-
ves •• ell aides, ;adored's, of all party feeliegs,
•teidd have eketsfelle eeecurred in sepportlog wet-
been candidly propoeed ow the ground of indispon-
sib!, seeeesity, ent•ithileseliog the hostilire le fry
sight otherwise eittortsito lathe pretest, or sty other
set of Ministers placed in the like eireemsi•new, end
whether the Beard of Admiralty coneirwl of Ave •r
seven Member,. It was in vain 'n 'steels to conceal
the disadvantages which this proceeding would pro.
dwells the present situation of th•coso•rv, at loam
m it was recommended by the Right Her. Gentle.
ma. The some Hon. Member, he well remembered,
'seer three years ago had esproced his warm sp.
potation of the stplication of the Sinking Fend to
the tempest of the debt, yet why now endear-or, by
•diliweet course, to alter is applice lien ?—Pressia,
Rim". Austria, and the Gaited States of Americo,
bed web placed their Revenues In such siteatioos,
list they were really advaistaget to the State by
its operations. Fiance also, with whom F.nglaad
en awe at poste, which he wish. d leech would loss
trains', set sate this years new Sinking Fund,. n
Ito prieciple of Mr. Pitt. for the liquidation of the
debt of that ceuetry, amounting to 17U at
tie me of one per cent. ; that ie. 1.70C,000:.
II", by the Minister of that reentry *pro.
prided for a Sinking Feed.— He coold stale
to the Climatic's., sod to it he berried portico-
ler attention, what °routed sluice lout islet's* to
torpies of the Consolidated Fuoti. For ten term
to that period, the surplus stookin..J to
3,5414,001 N. seesilly, and as • proof ef his reason-
i'lise that point, he 'errata to the A114(11,1140°0
Act Pled every year. Taking the two list as the

steoclard of the your which the country Ca. to es•
pert after peace, what was the event ?—lnstead of
the I surples, there had been a nectisity for so.
application of the Governeseet to the Blink, for
assist' tree towards paying thecreditors of ti' Public.
By the consolidation of the Exchequer of Ireland
with that cf Eaglaed, a debt had been incurred by
this country, in consequence of the poverty of
Irelsod, of 1.880,9001. lly, for the liqui-
dation of which, as well es of the slim of
2,174,0001 which became dee each your on the
Consolidated Fend of this country, Parliament
was hound by the good faith of the country to
provide. These two see., it was OhliOlit to
every Gentleman, exceeded the surplus of the re.
vogue, end thus the public creditor was placed under
the coattail of the Bank, a mestere which he highly
deprecated hi future. In 1783, when there was no
Sinking Feed, after the ertoclution of the Ame-
rican war, a great statesman was placed at the head
of the Gasses department in this country. In 1792,
this greet men was enabled by his excellent measures
to propose a remittance of sayings taxes, which would
have been effected bet for the brerking forth of the
enfortenste Revolution in Fiume. The taxes remit-
ted by Mr. Pitt were in the irst place so Assessed
Tax on female servants; secondly, so Assessed Tat
of carts and waggons ; thirdly, an Assessed Tax which
he ardently hoped would be never renewed, although
it amounted to seven millions, open cottages; sod
fourthly, a tat of a halfpenny per poend on tallow
candles. The reentry was at present le difficelties,
so it was in 1783, at that time it was smarting under
the consequences of an unfortunate war termiested
by as ignominious peace, it was now triumphant
from a successful war and a glorious peace; its
finances in 1783 had been embarrassed, but by
divot measures, they were retrieved and placed to
proper state ; tech also at the present time would be
the result, if measures equally appropriate were 'suc-
tioned. The resumption of Cash Pasmentv, for
which prevision was everyday making, together with
an 'Silent Sinking Fend, seemed to him 'efficient to
realise his highest expectation', by producing goal
results to the country. Ile knew no other leel.imate
mode of procuring these wisned.for results, than the
payment of tat by the capital of the country; in
the dedication of a portion of individual wraith
to the exigencies of the State. This united to a
diminished espenditure, and to industry end ports.
would soon bring the country to a state of
prosprrity. Ile was desirous of .oeiog a Sinking
Fund established, so es to allow one per cent. ott the
debt rf the country, end that it should be carried en
according t., the Act of 1792. Since th• establish.
merit of peace taxes had been remitted to the Penile,
amounting to 19 milNons, and it could not be avid
that it was impossible to bear • slight hoiden after
the removal of so great a load. The lion. and Learned
Gent. had said that one million could be saved to
the country by 'canna), that is, by the shanties of
the Board of Customs. end by placing the collection
of the taxes under the regulation of the Facies.—
Tbe absutdity of the plait could net bet be oboists
'to every Member, he' the lion. Member. Equally
incompatible wi-h practice was the system witscn he
uodost.orresi to h•ve pet tote execution, respecting
the redaction of the selaries of the Collectors, wbkh
he denominated sitiocuret, as they viseeeded some-
times 4..001 per annum. The Hootterable aid
Learned Getitlinosn would have dose well to have
studied the facts before be mode his statement. He
could safely answer for toe titamp Collectors, that
they were endow great rerweemhility, sad of course
their alarm not ton great. He regretted that he lied
so long *revolted on Inc Canimittee, end espressini
his Congo. lion that the sdoptinis of the Resolutions
would he pratert,re -4 beneficial consegeences,
Mr. BROUGHAM explained.
Mr. J. IL Sidi 111 agreed in the propriety of ten.
&tint the surplus of the lead opplieshle to the lie
qeidstion of the debt. -Mon seemed to him be
tn ties of reirenrhrnear es mentioned by his lion.
I'.ies.d, in the collecting of the revenue, and in tie
roper reeeisting of he army. li•fore net, tales
• Geld I. levied, Commissioners ought to be sp.
'tinted by Pastier, cot for investigating into, and re-
porting their opinions on, the expenditure of the pre.
tent luxe..

Mr. ( CALVERT rose, amid loud cries of
Qqestion! protect sitarist the o.i lions geode
b) the Right llou. Member who proposed the Reso-
lutions r•lative to the hrosters; be was net prepared
to meet hire pith calca'atinris, bet he irloclarpd his
total disagreement tt nil ro.evrvitino,...4l,eud
cries of (beams and 'Padres! followed.]

After some delay.
Mr. St:M(l.En' obesilied the attention of the
Committee. He conceive.' that the question might
I be viewed undertwo lights. first, as to the necessity of
levying three millions of new ism; and mend, as
to the propriety of lorrog them et the present time.
to relation to the first point. the revenge wes said
I to bate a:resided the eipenditese by two
mud the coonery was said so have she means of en.
joying • permanent peace, where then was the no-
' cat.ity of levying these teats ? But it might be said,
the People are able to pay flesh lat..; they are
digitises of psyisg them, on account of the dovish-
ling state of the country. Of the 'diastases of a
I • %nails, Feed in time of war, as contributing to
I keep op the price of Stocks ha had no doubt, bet
its utility in time of peace seemed to him proble-
matical. 11e would oat eater into the Wag his.
lory of the Skokie( Feed, se dmsiled by the Right
Hoe. Gentleman, bet be would remind him of seam
alccamstances which be mewed to have forgetten,
respecting the coudect of the vest Statesmee whom
he bad so bights praised, wed who it could wet be
denied was • most escellent finsucier. Mr. Pitt bad
in his Bill regulated that when the Sitsitino Feud
should outspent to four millions it should be brought
before l's filament. Fee what lessons? The Sink-
ing Folio was dreaded es affording a means of in.
creasing each the espeorlitere of the coontry, end
when it should he,e eseeeded the sem of four mil.
lions, the Aet which established it, required the in-
terference of Parliament for its future regulation.
tase.ths it unworthy of • great body,
assembled to deili• erste most solemnly on in import.
sat sohjsct, to hear a tissue of observations respect-
ing the opinie• s of an lion. Member some years ago,
instead a r.,..binents to induce conviction. Whet
argument had been aildeced to show the metes-
oily of three minions of an taus: loe said rots'

hurl already Cot millions of a 'septet shove your or.
pendit•re—then why ask for three millions, more
than four or Mee, nr •we miter number? It was a
mere arbitrary choke, and no reason whatever had
been assigned for it; het one general Minn o.4;tn.
ed by the Right lion. Gentleman, by the Noble
Lord, and those around him, although submit:a vote
way eis &obi he w hispered in each other's ears, ,
for what reason did the Government look for the par.
tinier sem of three ? The truth was,the Noble
Lord(Cestlereagh) and his colleseua, judging by the
late vote an what ground they stood, bad imbed for
thu tbreereillions. They did net say the People could
afford to pay them; they did not say how they were
rendered necessary; to what use they would be
applied : bet they trusted to those who then supported
them, and said to them, " We rely oe year joining
les in this vote weight ; we pot it us a test of our
malarity, that must fall if yeas desert es ; sod upon
that vote ha felt conficket they depended fur the do.
mend they had just made. Ho took it as a postulate
'that they bad two millions over their imputes, for
'they had so stated it : then why not pet that two
millions by, as an accumulating fend, or lay oat
the two millions annually le redeem the public
debt as far as it would go, and thereby serve the
very purpose for which, amongst other', it had
lbeee called for ? The debt they owed was nothing
elite but the taxes they paid, mud it was nothing but
delusion to talk of the woode-fel properties of the
•Sinktng Feed. The Right Honourable Gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Entities/0 bed said, we
Auld husband our renames and economise our es.
'wedelns; bet he hod discovered a new method of
doing so—in forcing money from the people's pockets.
A great deal had been said shoot the Consolidated
Fond, bet Its importance hennas lessened, when it
was discovered that the Sinking Food was charged
open It. Hanover heard of a ceentry being enriched
, by taxes, althoegh it was not a very unusual mistake
to take an increase of lazes as a proof of wealth.
When be looked at ite state of the times, at the
sufferings of the poor, the wages of labeler enable to
'support the labourer or mechanic, after foot years of
peace, taus exorbitant. the lanced interest supports
leg a 'Asper pepolstios, and the real estate careen
Gentleman lessened in competence of tales full 10
per cent., Or twice as much as the Property Tat re.
pralerl, be could not see bow the Ministers of the
' country resold possibly tome forward end seek to add to
I the calamities that stared every man fell.frented in the
face. Honeseity Abetted it as much es sound policy,
and a regard for the People's Wryest condemned it.
That Use time of making the demand was particularly
enfavesrable was bet too true, and new tales would
only serve to keep it so. A cheap of currency was
always alluded with corresponding effects upon the
ceentry to *Lich it might take place, bet any de-
pression momeutarily produced would be more than
amply compensated by the benefits that always fol-
lowed io its train. The Committee, however, was
then called open to say they thought three millions
of fresh taxes necessary, at the very moment when
the Government said they had two millions above the
event..s of the country.-4 Hear, hear!]—lie did I
not consider such a sere to Ica et all necessary, or if
necessary, he did not think the condition of the
I country such as to noble It to pay it. He spier..
gi,ed to the Committee for baying so inn Blinded
upon them, bet Ire frosted the People's interests!
• areitld not be neglected, that their sufferings would
Ibe pitied, not increased ; and that he might not In.'
weak them, end discharge hi, duty faithfully to the
empire, he would most cordially vote egaiust theit
being granted.
Mr. BANK ES could hot account far the new light
that had broken in on the mind of the last Learned
Speaker; aed he wan sorry, with such teepee for
him, that he could not become a convert to his opi.l
mons The Learned Gentleman had gild, the Sink-
ing Fowl was unavailable, especially in a time of l
peace; bet Pitt and For, and Sheridan, and the
Right 'lnimitable Gentleman, Mr. Tierney, who
knew tint Ileum of the country as well as any other.
man in or out of the Hoes., had all advocated its
utility. It was the main source that enabled Ones
to get oat of the contest with such triumph and such
glory ; bet be feared, in .6,4 they had two millions of
so rples,that they were reckoning too fast, and Int should
he glad if it were realised. At lbe time of tha American
wee they bad not roe million surplus, even if the
circumstances of that time bore any analogy to the
present. Then the debt was 410 milling, now ill
wag SOO, and the proportion of surplus being now
required to be five millions, was any thing but an.
fair. The three millions to be obtained would go as
a redeeming sum, and though it might press some-
what heavily at the present period, its consequences
would ultimately tend to the national relief at the
proper season. The Ministers were forced to risk
the unpopularity of the act in thileische.ge of their
duty, and he regretted that any eatery should have
been raised by a Right lion. Gentleman. who had
always praised the utility of the Sinking Fend. It
was said we were at peace,—true, but who could
guarantee it ? Even Mr. Pitt had predicted a peace
to last ten or fifteen years, bet almost immediately
after his prediction, ensued the most 'Minting war
tbut ever occurred in England. They had an enemy
at home which should be put down,--am immense
debt ; and though they bad a peen abroad, he con-
ceived the present measure essential to the interests
awl the safety of the Empire.—The cries of Ques-
tion f were here very general, and strangers were or-
dered to withdraw, when,

Mr. CANNING began by rspressiog his regret
that the Right lion. Gentleman was not In his
place, as he should have beta glad, before he pro.
ceridod, to know how ha intended to word his routine
in point of (nrm.—[ ir. Rrogden here slated, that
Mr. Tierney had withdraws his ioformal notice of the
previews goestinn for the more regular nne, that the
Chairman do lease the Choir.]—Well, thew, nig so.
lion in sibilance seemed to b. to postpone or mice-
llee the proceedings of the Committee. Of one thing
he (Mr. Caroni. g) 1184 ennfidently doer, that the °lily
certain way in which the Committee could an its
duty to the country was not to depot wi.hoot
cnrning Insome tlefiniueonelesion.—(lleer,ketrrn
There might be two or mare nodes of relieving the
distresses of ihe country, brit this monde adopted by
Abe Right Hon. Gentleman of calling for s Corneille.
in order to record the argent wants of the slate, end
!then to deny Ministers the means of obtoisnog any
'lliKaatien of a peslible retrwly, trn of all others the

most esirseagert end •nintellisiUle. II • liinisiry
hail +OA so with respect In •n opposition, that
would b• bed enough; bet in • rsi..h•ls!e fnr
!Ministry, who valued himself (eremitism' his (unh-
orse end sincerity, who wet ■ll risennese find
disinte►estedness—(4 lough) --loch a proceeding
was the moss whimsically contrsdictory diet hid ever
heen engend^red by the Is' •nrlpringe of pert) spirit.
(Loyd cheering) -The linear find • right io call
upon him to artist the pion now p•np•sai. •r t•
snippet some asMtis•le; et any rate, if he left the
engoiry allososiber, the floe* Lod • right to My
In hi% Your despond for inveeli.t•vi,n bolt

spree( from mere idle cariosity; and r r Pena
■ny patriotic wish to remedy the evil.' Sep.
pose the Ministers had not laid their rate Noy
and folly before the Commitsee, what would the Op-
position base said then? Weald sot each man in
his district, mod all their trumpeters throoghnot riso
kingdom, have (Inferred as w ith esclamati sus, fl Why
were we not chosen Ministers; how different things
would have boob if we bed g d the country 1—
Then you shield have knows your incest room to
the lowest site—then we would have exposed the
utter hopelessness of your fIIMICIN eed then we
would have left you precisely as you were." Absurd
es this was, it was a fair representation of the conduct
of the ether side of the Ilona His llnneera►le
■nd ',versed Friend on the ether side (Mr. Scar.
lett) bad ••pressed hidterlf with some indignation,
as if Ministers bed brought forward this plan to-
night is the mem Insolesee of triumph, on ac.
count of their majority on • lase versosno ; bat be
could Mere his learned Friend, and this not on the
mere word of a Minister, but the honour of man,
they it was not mere bravado to say, that the strength
of the Administration distinctly rested on this goes.
lion. They were perfectly convinced that the mea-
sure sow proposed was obsoletely necessary for the
safety end prosperity of the country ; and Irvine In
convinced, the same motive which induced them to
bring it forward, and especially is a season of die-
tr•ss like the present, must forte them to leave
their plains soles• thee carried it. It •oeld have
bees much b►tter for the ;Appose of the WO Hon.
Gentleman to hove met this proposition wish a direct
emotive; because then, if his uppo•ltioo had been
seccesafel, it vroeld have carried with it en impres-
tioo of the incapacity of Ministers, as Impression
which t►e Right Hon. Gentleman was an anxious to
evoke en the public 'shod. The choice would 'hes
have been between the present Adininistrotioe, with
three millions of additional tsars, sod as Administre•
Lion composed of the Gentlemen opposite without
any new rages; and thus something wield have bees
thrown into the scale on their side. The H. lost
knew, when Gentlemen came into power from he
other side, on what sweeping principles they acted;
and he thought it not improbable that if see`
a change were to take place, those who were nee
satiated with three millions of fazes, might hear
a propositios for ralaing No millions. The Right
Honourable Countries shield rather has• said
that be would bete no taste as all, and then as a
non-Ming Minister he might ban had some claim to
popularity. The Rt. Hoe. Geotlemen feeling himself
pressed by his conscience to say something aboat re•
trenchment, had gives it as his opinion that • saving
of one million might be effected by • system if eft.
ninny in every department of the espenditere; bet
although a variety of measures for the riniettion of
the expenditure had been discussed, he could sot see
any thing approaching nearly to one million in alt
the proposes+ for ret►encsuornt which had been made
by the Gentlemen opposite. Bat all the subjects had
been- lately before the Hoes., had been thoroughly
rehearsed, awl although some Gentlemen objected to
items he,. and there, yes none of them ever diem' of
lemming them by • million. Full many a 6.. tS.I. had nal
doubt, been foetid erroneous; but •till so one had ever
beard of any thing like a million. Bat the Right Hon.
Gent. might say,w bile yes accuse me of not specifying
how you might economise, did I nut propose to ys
to recluses two Lords of the Admiralty—good—for
40001. and that the duties of the then Secretary of
Stale should devolve on the other two—eye, that Is
60001. more—an aggregate, therefore, of 8000 i.;
bet still there remained 9941,0001. before the million
meld be made oat.—[Hear! and a latteh.]-1116
Lay Lords, however, and the third Secretary of State,
seemed to be as sentinels placed round th• tentpart
of retrenchment, and the Right Honourable Gentle.
man not being able to get then net of the way, could
not of course get Into the citadel. Beside 300 gagers
were in the way, and he should first get over them, as
at eaotherThernsopylse, before the citadel would yield;
hut not succeeding so far, he was obliged to lase•ut his
. seal bed not been answered by his rappel's' sucrose.
Ile was not competent to discuss the principle of a
borrowing Sinking Fund ; but he was convinced et
the necessity of an absolute surplus to do the business
of such a fend. Ile was bound to give every Member
of that 'loose credit for rectitude of motives ; but if
be had at on earlier part of the Session accosoci the
Right Hoe. Gentleman of that inconsistency of p►in.
eiple of which, ore his own confession, he now stood
convicted—

Mr. CALCR AFT here rem In order. He could
sot listen in silence io the fool, offensive, and almost
oope►liamentary aspersions which the Hight lion.
Gentl•msn had pined on Ms Right lion. Friend,
ea himself, and on all hie friends around him. In
the course of his eaperience in that Hone, he ha►dly
recollected basing ever hand such wi.parliamentary
language as that in which the Right Hun. Gentleman
began his speech. His Hob. Friends had all stated
that 4.. e country was at prevent in such II si.oation
Ithat it could not boar any additional intation ; they
said. that they and Meer fr.erids were not Jpinst
tuation, but that they whited the menace In be
postponed. And was there any thing •, shocking in
to warrant the mullets which had been ora-
-1 plied lay the Right (iolittooms?—[sdoer, I roe!)
I —epithet?' **Lit :I. if not uni.•''iasaen: try, ww• • at
lest an Uncivil, that they ought not to 1• awe Awes
used in .hb•'e.
• Sir CA N XING her• Interrupted the iluweu►.
able Centlem.n. lie tho.ght that i. defeat.laWl
was tnlera'.ly fear room to givo and to tab; eed
wheuo•.r •hu terms `• indecent" end w afro. w•,"
which had been opplied to this repent, were re.
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elcrialiir .