The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-01-07 00:00:00

illdat~

FINANCE COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Finance Committee, comprising,
the appropriation of land for the Female Orphan Asylum,
the subscriptions to the public charities and other institu-
tions, as follow—Royal Institution, £lOO ; Botanic Garden,
£100; North and South Dispensaries, £lO5 ; Northern
Hospital, £lOO ; Refuge for the Destitute, £25 ; Ophthal-
mic Institution, £3o,—and the annual allowance to Mr. W.
Wainwright. of the Liverpool Office, of £lOO, were read.
It appeared by a report embodied in the proceedings, that
the net annual income of the Liverpool Corporation might
be estimated:at £140,797, and the expenditure at £125,317 ;
leaving a surplus of £15,480. They were of opinion that a
disposable surplus of £8,070 was sustainable ; but, at the
same time, considering the variable character of the income
and expenditure, they thought that cautious reserve and
economy were essential to the just administration of the
corporate affairs.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE, in moving the confirmation of the
proceedings,. stated that the committee had taken into con-
sideration the memorial of the trustees of the Female Orphan
Society, and had, incompliance with what appeared to be the
wish of the council, offered a piece of land in Myrtle-street,
the value of which was considerably more than £l,OOO.
They had not yet received any reply from the trustees, and
they did not therefore ask the council to confirm the proceed-
ing, which would now stand over to that day month.
Mr. EVANS expressed his determination to oppose the
grant, unless it were understood that the advantages of the
Institution were to be extended to catholics as well as Pro-
testants. He would put it to the Town-clerk whether it
were legal to apply the funds of the corporation thus ex-
clusively ?

The MAYOR. said there was no restriction as to the religion
of the parties to be taken into the Institution.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE proposed the following grants
seriatim. To the Royal' Institution £100; Botanic Garden
£100; North and South Dispensaries £lO5 ; Northam
Hospital £100; Refuge for the Destitute £25 ; Opthalniic
Institution £3o.—Carried.

Some conversation took place commenced by Mr. PARKER.
touching the propriety. of making a grant of yoncy to the
Eastern Dispensary, the South Tosteth Hospital., &c., and
eventually the proceedings were confirmed.
Mr. LLOYD gave notice that at the nest meeting he should
move that a grant of fifty guineas be made to.the Easter!'
Dispensary ; and Mr. PLATT gave notice that he should
move a similar grant to the South Tosteth Hospital.

IAIPROVE-114 ENT COMM ITTEI

The proceedings of the Improvement Committee were
read and confirmed.

WATCH COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Watch Committee, comprising the
the appointment of collectors of the lighting and fire police
rates, in the out townships, were read and confirmed.

MARKETS COMMITTEF

The proceedings of the Markets Committee were read,
embodying a recommendation that the salary of Mr. Luya,
the superintendent of St. James' market, should be raised
from £l5O to £l7O.

Mr. JAMES LAWRENCE proposed ,that the proceedings
should be adopted. In compliance with the standing orders,
the increase of Mr. Luya's salary was postponed for one
month. Mr. James Lawrence intimated that he should op-
pose the grant strenuously whenever it was brought forward.
111 r. Procter and Mr. Toulmin likewise intimated that they
would oppose the increase of the salary. They saw no

reports of t;

proceed

111 CO:

mittee were next read. They recommended that the schools
should commence and close with singing a hymn and with
prayer; that none but the authorised verison of the Bible
should be used in the schools, and that the same should be
used without restriction or limit ; that the church catechism
should be taught to all:the children, with the exception of
those whose parents or guardians might conscientiously
object; and that the children should attend at the schools on
Sunday mornings, and proceed from thence to church, &c.
The number of children in the schools was stated to be as
follows

ESTABLISHED CHURCH

North School
South ditto.. ,

Total
PROTESTANT DISSENTERS.
North School l3l
South ditto..

ROMAN CATHOLICS.
North School
___

South ditto,

Total
The average attendance at the North School for the last month
was— Boys
Girls..
Infants 164

And at the South School—
Boys.
Girls
Infants

Mr. MoLYNEux moved the confirmation of the report,
touching the future management of the schools, which, he
said, was a straightforward one, requiring no explanation on
his part in the-outset.

Mr. HARUORD seconded the motion.
Mr. AIKIN said a petition or memorial had been put in his
hands, from the burgesses of Castle-street ward, which bore
upon this subject, and which he thought it would be exceed-
ingly valuable for the council to hear.
Mr. PROCTER apprehended that if Mr. Aikin read the me-
morial now it would be in direct violation of the standing
orders. It should have been read and decided upon before
the debate commenced.
Mr. AIKIN contended that he was in order, and he asked
the council whether they would reject the memorial ?
Mr. JOHN SMITH said, that in the.whole of his experience
memorials had been read as Mr. Aikin proposed to read this,
and he had been a member of the council longer than Mr.
Procter.
Mr. AIKIN then proceeded to read the memorial, which
was of considerable length. It was to the effect that the me-
morialists thought that the council ought not to undertake
the duty of education at all, but that, if they did so, they
ought to conduct it on such principles as would render it ac-
cessible to all. They felt that the utility of the schools would be
impaired by the adoption of any plan which might tend to the
exclusion of the largest and poorest portion of the population.
This memorial was got up only yesterday on a rumour getting
abroad of the nature of the report likely to emanate from
the Education Committee. The petition had been written
upon the spur of the moment by a pen that did honour to the
writer ; signatures only began to be obtained yesterday, and
they were confined to the 'burgesses of Castle-street ward.
A great number of the most respectable men of all sects and
denominations had signed it. Among them were Sir Joshua
Walmsley, Mr. Seager, Mr. Pilcher, and others, who had
been members of that council, and altogether about 50 gentle-
men had attached their names to it, but he had no hesitation
in saying that if more time had been allowed, and the town
had been appealed to, it would have been signed by as many
hundreds. The merit of the petition, however, must not be
measured by the number of signatures. The respectability
of the petitioners was unquestionable ; and the arguments
they used were overpowering, so much so that he would not
venture to weaken their effect upon the council by one word
of his own. He begged to move that the memorial be referred
to the Education Committee.
Mr. Josh HOLMES seconded the motion.
Mr. HODGSON begged that the names of the memorialists
might be read over.
Mr. AIKIN read them accordingly. They were about fifty
in number.
Mr. Alderman TURNER said he rose with great reluctance
to offer a few observations on the present subject, because he
had the misfortune to differ in opinion with the friends with
whom he had generally the pleasure of acting. When he con-
sidered that he owed the seat which he had the honour to
hold in that council to the kindness and good opinion of those
friends, he felt himself delicately situated ; but when he re-
flected on the importance of the question, and the important
considerations which were likely to ensue from the discussion
of that day, he thought he would be unworthy of himself, and
unworthy of retaining his seat one moment longer if he had
not the moral courage to express a free and unbiassed opinion
upon the question, or refrain from giving an independent vote
on this question as his heart and conscience dictated. (Hear,
hear, from the liberals.) The education of the poor, in his
humble judgment, ought not to be made a party question ;
but he greatly feared that many of his own friends had made
it so. (Hear, hear, hear. and cries of no, no.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE—I say yes, yes ; you have made it
a party question.
Mr. Alderman TURNER resumed. All classes of the com-
munity, whatever their religion or their politics might be,
were equally interested in the welfare of their poorer
brethren ; and he would ask what was so likely to make the
destitute poor good citizens and loyal subjects, as to remove
them, at an early age, from the chance of passing into the
haunts of vice by training them up in the paths of virtue.
" Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is
old he will not depart from it," was a scriptural maxim, and
it would prove the best advice. He believed it was admitted
on all hands that the corporation schools had been the means
of doing a great deal of good to the children of the poor in
their respective districts ; and it was upon this consideration
that he strongly objected to any measures being adopted that
might tend to debar Roman catholic children, of whom so
large a proportion (particularly at the North School)' were
the recipients of it, as the council had beard, from the be-
nefits of the education provided by the corporation. He was
aware, that from the great change which had recently taken
place in the constitution of that council, it was natural to be
expected that some alterations would be made, and it was
theiefore a source of pride and gratification to some to know
that an attempt would be made to restore the Bible and to re-
move the extracts, which they believed to he so obnoxious to
protestant principle. The conservatives bad now the ascen-
dancy, and he rejoiced at it as much as any man could : but
at the same time let them use the triumph they had gained
with christian temper and moderation, and not act with
harshness or intolerance towards any class. With the gene-
ral tenor of the resolutions proposed by the Education Com-
mittee he cordially concurred, but, constituted as the schools
were he did not agree with them in making the reading of
the Bible the test of admission or rejection of the scholars.
He was willing that the protestant children should have their
religious services morning arid evening, but he would not insist
on the catholic children learning a book to which their parents
or guardians might object from conscientious grounds. If the
catholics desired to obtain secular instruction merely,he thought
they ought to have credit given to them for it ; and the coun-
cil ought to rejoice at the settlement of the question upon
such satisfactory terms ; for, after all, it was very question-
able whether the council were not committing an act of in-
justice upon them in depriving them altogether of religious
instruction. His friends, it was true, might tell him that
they should not be instrumental in teaching error in any way ;
but he said that, according to the municipal reform bill, the
town council was not a political body ; they were trustees
of the corporate estate for the public good, and benefit of all
classes, and, as such, they had no right to deprive any sect,
upon account of their religion, of their fair share of the ad-
vantages derivable from the corporate income. (Hear, hear.)
This was his view of the case, and feeling, as he did, that it
was inconsistent with the spit it of the municipal reform bill
that they should restrict the 'deans of doing good to one class
of the town, he had deemed it his duty to prepare an amend-
ment, which he trusted would meet the exigencies of the case.
He was afraid that some of his friends would not approve of
the course he was taking ; but, in common justice to a large
portion of the community, he could not consent to act differ-
ently. He was told to leave every thing to the discretion of
the committee, and that his amendment would look like a
want of confidence in them ; but lie could not withdraw it on
that account, because it was exceedingly desirable that all
classes of children should partake of the education in the
corporation schools, without reference to sect. Mr. Turner,
who was beard very indistinctly at the reporters' table, coil- .
eluded by moving the following amendment :
" That the proceedings, resolutions, and reports of the
Education Committee be approved, with the following ex-
ceptions :--That at the end of the first article of the report,
namely, ' that the school shall commence in the morning and

close in the afternoon with singing a hymn and with prayer,'
there to he added—' but no child whose pat eats or guardians
ediall signify their conscientious objections thereto shall be
pbliged to attend those services. That at the end of the
second article of the report, namely—' that none but the
authorised version of the Bible shall be used its the schools,
'and that the same shall be used without restriction or limit,'
,there he added—' except as to children whose parents or
guardians may conscientiously object thereto, which children
still have the benefit of the secular instruction other-
vise by the schools.' And that corresponding
;alterations be made by the committee in the second rule
,(already quoted) and the fourth rule, namely—' that the
'children of the upper schools shall be ' required to attend on
Sundays, in the morning at half-past nine, for religious in-
-truction, and to proceed to church, and in the afternoon at
;half-past two ;' and that the eleventh of the same rules, for
calling of the roll, be adapted thereto."
The MAYOR presumed that Mr. Turner was aware of ano-
ther amendment having been previously moved by Mr. Aikin,
.to the effect that the memorial of the burgesses of Castle.
street ward be referred to the Edneation Committee.

, Mr. AIKIN said he had not intended to submit the refe-
rence of the memorial to the committee as an amendment.
lie wished merely to read it and lay it before the council.

After some discussion on the subject, it was eventually
presumed by the council that the memorial had been pre-
sented before the Deputy Town-clerk proceeded to read the
report of the committee, and consequently that no amend-
ment had been submitted by Mr. Aikin.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said he rose with great pleasure to se-
cond the amendment made by Mr. Turner. In doing so, he
would avail himself of the opportunity to set himself right in
the eyes of the council and the public at large with respect to
the proposition he had thought proper to bring forward on
the school question on the second of last. month. For the
course pursued by him on that occasion, when he suggested
the propriety of erecting separate schools, i►► order that in-
struction might be afforded to the Protestant and Catholic
children of the poor, he had been taunted not only with the
charge of inconsistency, but with a desertion of principle
also. He most distinctly denied the truth of both those
charges, and he had incontestible evidence to prove that nei-
ther one nor the other was founded in fact. He held in his
hand a report of what had taken place in the council five
years before, when the subject of education in the schools
was matter of debate. On that occasion he had seconded a
resolution brought forward by Mr. Birch, precisely similar
to what he himself had proposed in the council a few weeks
before, and every conservative member of the council then
present actually voted in favour of it.

Mr. Alderma'n EARLE.—Read their names, if you please.
Mr. JOHN SMITH.—Yes, he would read the whole of
them. He would read what Mr. Birch said on the occasion ;
and then he might fearlessly say—in the name of common
justice, fairness, and reason, let the charges of inconsistency
and departure from principle rest on the shoulders of those
best entitled to them. Having read the extract accordingly,
he proceeded to say, that the conservative members who had
voted for this proposition, which he (Mr. John Smith) se-
conded, were Mr. Birch, Mr. James Heyworth, Mr. Henry
Lawrence, anti Mr. John Smith—
Mr. SANDS.—Those are not all conservatives.

Mr. Jo H ;;; SM ITIL—H ow was it that that which was praise-
worthy in 1836 should be considered so obnoxious and repul-
sive in 1811? He left that question to be solved by those
who had changed their opinions upon the subject—(laughter)
—for it was quite out of his own power to furnish a solution
of the problem. With regard to the amendment proposed by
Mr. Turner it was so reasonable, lust and fair, that he hoped
it would meet with the undivided support of every member
of the council
Mr

Alderman EARLE.-Mr. Mayor, I rise for the pur.
pose of supporting Mr. Turner's amendment, and I have
infinite pleasure in doing so. I do not know that I ever
heard sentiments fall from any gentleman that so entirely
I am proud to call Mr. Turner a

robatioi

him for ye

and was certairi

cuself to

anything that had the slightest taint oF dishonour or ungen-
tlenaanlike conduct. All I have to say is, that Ido not care
if every man in this room were a conservative, provided he
comes into it with the principles of Mr. Turner, though I
regret to see him seated in the ranks he is. I should- be glad
to see him on this side of the house. (Laughter.) Yes, you
may laugh, but he is much too good for your company.
(Continued laughter.) Now, gentlemen, to business. The
Education Committee have not pursued the inquiry with
regard to the system adopted in the schools, in that spirit of
a desire to make an amendment which the nature of the sub-
ject demanded, and which they promised/to do. (No, no.)
From the constitution of the committee, I for one never ex-
pected any favourable result from their labours. What, in-
deed, could we expect from men who entered upon the sub-
ject that was before them, not with that humble diffidence
of the correctness of their own opinion, but with a presump-
tuous, overbearing, insulting confidence that they are right,
and that every other individual aho presumes to differ with
them must be in the wrong (Hear, from the Radicals.)
When the gentlemen left this room the last time they en-
tered upon this discussion, I told them they had committed
a great error in appointing those gentlemen upon this Educa-
tion Committee. They treated my observations very lightly.
(Loud laughter.) Yes, sir, let Mr. Hodgson wait until I
have finished my sentence, and then he will see and hear
what will not suit his purpose so well, perhaps. (Hear,
hear, hear.) I say they have deprived us of every chance
of bringing this matter to a conciliatory conclusion.
They made:light of what I then said, and they spurned the
idea of being influenced by men so inferior to themselves in
intellect. (Oh, oh !) I do not mean to say they asserted
that in so many words, but from the remarks they made, I
do mean to say it was impossible for any reasonable being to
come to any other conclusion. They treated their opponents
with scorn, and with infinite scorn too, but I think, that was
a very good reason for not placing them upon the committee.
Never was so unjustifiable a resolution come to as that of re-
scinding the rules and regulations of the committee the last
time of meeting. Thanks to the gentlemen upon my left, and
to that council which introduced them into this room, no
proceedings that outrage decency, as these have done, can
ever pass over discussion when the gentlemen of the press
are present. You have all heard of the severe castigation
that some members of this council have received a few Sun-
days ago from the pulpit. (Hear, hear, and cries of " No,
no.") Yes, it was so, lam not in error I know—l think not
at least. This castigation came from a haughty divine, and
a ioi disant follower of the meek and lowly apostles. (Hear,
from the liberals.) I cannot say, I think, the geutleman
wrong—l do not wonder that the congregation expressed
their indignation at their pulpit being turned to such a use;
but I do think that the gentleman who afterwards rushed
into the lion's mouth in the way he did had more courage
than prudence. (Loud laughter, and cries of " Question !')
I believe that a reconciliation has taker? place between the
reverend agitator and his rebellious hearer, and that this has
been brought by an " ingenious device too—(laughter.)
Mr. SHAND.—I rise, Mr. Mayor, to speak to order. I
think Mr. Alderman Earle is out of order is thus alluding to
parties not in this council.
Mr. Alderman EMU-E.—So, gentlemen; reverend gentle-
men, have thought fit to be abusive from the pulpit, and
when I come into my pulpit bete, I am not to defend myself!
The MAYOR.—I hope that Mr. Earle will avoid al/ perso-

realities.
Mr. Alderman EARIA.7—Did Mr. Shand learn that in the
West Indies ? (Cries of question.) 1 wish gentlemen would
not put me so much out of the way. (Great laughter.) Very
well, go on if you please ; but I was saying, Mr. Mayor, this
reconciliation had been brought about by means of an " inge-
nious device," which was that of laying all the blame upon
the shoulders of the poor town-clerk. But this device, not
being founded on fact, became, as many others from the
same quarter, what I should eall by no other appellation than,
in a word, a precious piece of humbug. (Hear, from the
liberals, and great langhter.) The case was to be bolstered
up by calling in the assistance of the reporter of the Mail:
but he did not choose to he dragged through the dirt, and he
had the manliness to protect his own honour whatever others
might do.

Mr. TouLmIN.-1 object to this discussion, Mr. Mayor ;
what have we to do with the Mail ?
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Oh, I dare say you do object. I
will hear you, sir, if you will please to sit down. Every one
in his turn, sir. (Laughter.) No, Mr. Mayor, the recom-
mendation of the committee to rescind all former resolutions
of the Education Committee aas not agreed to ; it was re-
sisted by this council because they were convinced of the im-
propriety and injustice of it. That was the only reason of it.
and Mr. Bushel may mention it if he pleases. (Hear, hear.)
Some who oppose this system have asserted that it teaches
error, and even idolatry ; but if those gentlemen who profess
to study the Bible so much, only valued its doctrines more
they would, before making that assertion,• have gone to the
schools and examined the children, to see whether they had
any erroneous and idolatrous notions in their head ; but upon
the contrary, they are well educated, knowiniall their duties
and for any good the Bible has done them they might as well
have had the wooden version issued from Mr. Holmes' press
in 1833, which Mr. Hogdson carried before his admiring
friends the worthy and immaculate—
Mr. HooGsox.—l deny it ; it is not true.

Mr. Alderman EARLE.:—I beg your pardon, sir, if I am
wrong. I thought you had embraced it; at least 1 was told

Mr. HODGSON.—It is an untruth, sir

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Then I beg your pardon, sir, if
I have stated that which is not correct. I hope you are sa-
tisfied ; at least I will do my very best to satisfy you, though
you are very hard to please. With the peculiar doctrines of
the catholic church, we have nothing to do ; but if these
gentlemen will inquire into the education of the corporation
schools, they will find that the children are well versed in the
Scriptures as far as they go, and moreover that they have
learned every Christian duty. Surely it cannot be displeas-
ing to that Almighty Being, who is the author of peace and
lover of concord, that these children may travel upon the
path to heaven as far as they can without differing in opinion,
and that when they shall arrive at that point where they dif-
fer, they may part without quarrelling, and leave their points
of difference to each other? Can that be displeasing to God?
I think not. Very well ; here is the very effect which is
produced by the much-maligned system that we are talking
about.- (Hear, hear.) This system was first introduced into
Ireland, where there was very much religious discord pre-
vailing, in the hope that it might succeed in allaying it; and
notwithstanding all the hostility of hot-headed priests of all
denominations, it is making very rapid progress, and doing
immense good. That is a fact which cannot be denied. In
Ireland it was supported, cordially supported 1 should say,
by Lord Stanley (hear, hear) ; and why it should not be a
good system here in Liverpool, where we have a very large
class of poor population just as they have there, I cannot
myself comprehend. I must leave that to the ingenuity of
the noble lord to explain. Mr. Hodgson, I believe, has
stated that this system is one of idolatry—
Mr. HoncsoN.—Where did I state it ?

Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Here in this room I believe, and
perhaps I can find what you said on paper. I think I recol-
lect you saying it myself, and I believe that there have been
others who can do the same. Will any any man presume to
say and think you would willingly accuse Lord Stanley of sup-
porting a system that promotes idolatry or any error what-
ever ? We can only come to this conclusion, that in Ireland
it has not had the same effect that it has in Liverpool. The
secular instruction of children is carried out. One gentle-
man, Mr. Packer, does not like them to learn an innocent
Scotch song, and another not to know the derivation of
words ; but if sonic gentlemen, who now and then favour us
with their opinions, would condescend to take a few lessons
from these children, we should not have our fine language
so barbarously 'murdered, and there would be less discord on
our ears, not only with regard to everything relative to gram.
mar, but also to pronunciation -

Mr. COOPER.—Our object is something higher—
Mr. Alderman EARLE.----It is something higher, indeed—
but there it is. Then with regard to Mr. Hodgson, lam
sorry to name him, but I cannot help it, as he was an old
friend formerly, he wishes the children to learn something
useful, but be would prevent their attention being directed
to such events as the destruction of Herculaneum.. Does be
mean to say that the knowledge of such events as the destruc-
tion of Herculaneum and Pompeii are not remarkable events,_
and that they do not deserve their attention? Ido not think
there is anything more likely to keep them from the alehouse
in after life, than the instruction of their minds ; for if their
minds are instructed, they can resort to instructive and
amusing books to consume those hours which otherwise
would hang heavily upon their hands. (Hear.) But it is
well known that the children in these schools receive a very
superior education, and that it is superior to most other
schools for children in the borough. (Cries of "No.")
Mr. PARKER.—No, no, and they never have been.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—You are an excellent judge, Mr.
Parker.

The MAyon, understanding that Mr. Alderman Earle had
used the word " insolent," called him to order.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.-1 did not use the word insolent,
sir ; I said that Mr. Parker was an excellent judge, and if
that be an improper term, I shall bow to the decision of the
mayor. It is sad to see men hostile to the system that has