The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-02-20 00:00:00

THE STATEV.AN

title we could not hearlwbich he sueantectit-‘- reisct sw
Friday next, awl he would more for dee oit it
one future day.
Lard A. HAMILTON *toyed for Mar no of dm 'Dint;
Councils in the different Boronghs 'of Scotland, specify-
ing the office of each person and whether resident's/to!,
ft.—Ordered. _
POSI•NASTRR GENERAL. •
Lord NORMANItY said he wiihed to put a question
to the Right Hon. Becretary (Mr. Peel.) It was in the
recollection of the house than an address to his Majesty
was carried last Session in that how to reduce one of
the two Postmasters-General. He was desirous of know-
ing what was done In consrgnence of that Address.
The house expected the immediate abolition of the
office. He would not then make any observation on
the expression put by Ministers' into the King's month,
in his Majesty's answer to that Address regarding the
office.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said he was prepared to give a
fair and candid answer to the question. The Noble
Lord said he understood no change was made in conse-
quence of the Address. But a change was nude so far,
that since the Address no salary was.given, and the sa-
lary was the ground of the Noble Lord's tuotion for the
reduction.

ecxorletecnted.,6l
(14"ealstal.)"ikrirohmthalelrethweasinnfoorniiieuatiotntinmeitiorffildwians
Coutinissivners were inclined to the (minions
that the
apfninlinent was not essential in the constitution of •he
office, especially if ths ssrvices of the Master-General
were not withdrawn. They also rroostmesaleal, that the
Roar dof Ordnance should, like the other Boards in the
sertics, be Composed of one (:eneraband four other Com-
missioners; and that the.office of Isient.-tiesiessishoett
be cominned as long as it seas convenient to retain him ;
or if it was necessary to place loins at the head of the
floarth-the Master-floneral to have the same du ies as hi-
therto. The Committee also recommended, that two of
the Board might be entitled to seats in the House of Com-
mons, for the purpose of answering all needful inquiries;
and the other two.ohould be siways reserved foe the imam
action of official business :dons. The Isets were, boa eveg,
a' present, quite opposed to this recommendation. They
had lately 4 junior Members of the Board in t!sat house,
and lie saw 3at that moment before him.—This was, at
lowa, two to one againq the suggestion of Lord
Moira. Of these three the treasurer aas one, but lie vas
aware that the Treasurer was no part of the Board ; it
was a question with him whether he should have a seat
there at all. :he complaint which be had to urfr, was,
that none of the recommendations of the Report were
attended to. He would state what the strongest reroni-
mendations consisted in. lie would first ask, would the
house sanction in time of peace an establishment of live
officers for the Ordnance, when it had previously circles
red that four Commissioner* were sufficient to conduct
the business of the Btitish navy during the war. Such
a demand was inconsivent to the recommendation of eco-
nomy from the Croon, the profession of retrenchin nt
by the Government, or the opinion of the Board which
he had recited. In his mind his Majesty's Mi-
nisters had GINO:if neglected their du's/ to the country.
He would be glad to hear from them why things in the
Ordnance Department were not to be changed, and if the
Navy was to be considered unworthy of a I-ts establish-
ment than the Ordnance? Ile should he toll, per-
haps, that there were several attendant charges
mining from the Barrrark Department. The an-
swer to that was, the Barr teli formerly belonged to
the Ordnance Office, and very properly gone back sof late.
There was hut a trivial duty, and both together slid not
form an establishment laborious or important in com-
parison with the Navy. Ile would then deliberately put
to the house, if it had last year reduced two Lords of
the Admiralty, eonld it refuse to admit that five officers
were too many for the business of an inferior department?
The salaries formed an important consideration with re-
gard to expense. The amount of those attached to the
Ordnance formerly was 3,5,70. a-year ; at present they
mere extended to 6.5501.; while the whole salaries of
the Naval Commissioner slid not exceed 4,0001. a-year.
It would be inconsistent to pay greater sum for the
subordinate duty, even if the Lieutenant-Gener l's sa-
lary of 1,5901. a-year was abolished, the estimate would
atilt be larger than the other. He agreed with the Fi-
nance Committee, as well as with the Commissioner of Mi-
litary Inquiry, that the servants of the Board should not
he considered in the same rank as he servants of the Secre-
taries of State. It was, in point of fact, an insult to a great
nation to find an establishment of so inferior a department
upholding such inordinate pretensions.—(Hear.) There
was snmetliinx in the time of filling up the appoint-
ment in his mind partieul irly to be disposed of. It was
eivsn away a ithin twent)-four hours of the meeting of
that house—(hear, hear)—in opposition to the declara-
tions from the throne, and the professlons of the
as to retrenchment. He was willing that the house
should he ready at all times to support the iligM•y of
the Crown; hut it was due to themselves only so f.r as
was absolutely necessary.—(Hear, hear.) lie.hal simian
by a comparison of duties and the number of individuals
in two der arttnents that he had estishlishel a t lai) fora
reduction in the le ser. He therefore hoped that the
house %mild support him, as the Ordnance was produc-
tive of more expellee and more lavish profusion than any
other department, with the exception of Ir. tend.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) No person could be aware (con-
tinued the Hon. (iewleman) of the profusion of the
office, without reading over the Report of the Commis-
sioners of Military Inquiry, judging from it, and making
the comparison between the exp-mlittire in 1796 and
that of the present duv. The house for the business
of the office cost 15,000.1. in bull ling, and. 1,200/. a-year
besides. The office of Secretary to the Master-General
stood the country in 1,900/. a-year, including his own sa-
lary of 1,5001. a-year, and a pension to Colonel Chapman
of 4001. a-year, who retinal to make way for him.—
But the Secretary's situation was one extravagantly re-
munerated ; not that he intended to undervalue the very
able services of Mr. Crewe, but his salary was, he
thought, disproportioned to his services, and the expense
of 12.001. a year for the house of a Gentleman who was
occasionally visiting Madrid was @omen hat extravagant.
Another abuse to which the Military Commission hail
directed their attention was the office of second Secre-
tary, an office of which even Ministers became ashamed
and reduced it ; but the public saved nothing by the re-
duction ; for the second Secretary received only a sal try
of 3001. a year, and two clerks succeeded him with sala-
ries of 1501. each yearly. Thus it would be seen that
every situation in that department, f.om the Clerk upon
his limited salary of 601. a year up to the Lieutenant Ge-
neral, required strict and constant and unremitting ob-
servation. He had shewn that in 1796 the expenreof this
department amounted only to 180001. and according to
the returns last year it amounted to not less than 630001.
though we were at war in 1796, and though we were last
year in the enjoyment of a . six years peace. The
Commissioners further advised that the business in Pall
Mall and at the 'lower should be transacted under one
roof, and thus considerable expense noted be saved to
the country. They recommended one establishment fur
sores at Woolwich, and suggestel that small fire arms
alone should be deposited in the Tower. The Honour
able Member concluded by retuarking, that he had en-
tertained hopes that this question would have been set at
rest by the adoption of the suggestion of the Military
Commission, and that he should not have felt the neces-
sity whico pr-sseil nyon him of bringing this question be-
fore the consideration of the house. The Honourable
Member moved, that as th- Military Commission had, in
their thirteenth Repair', declared that the appointment
of Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was not necessary
in time of peace, was not essential to the constitution of
the Board of Ordnance except in time of war, this house
is of opinion that the recent appointment to that situa-
tion is at variance with those principles of economy re-
commended from the Throne—that It was made without
due consideration of the distresses of the country, since
it was not absolutely necessary to the public service.
On the question being put from the Chair,
Mr. itoitEra WARD rose to oppose the motion.
From the motion the lion. Gentleman had read, he did
not hesitate to declare that he was not correct ; but the
contrary to what he had stated was correct.—(Lond
'Cheers.)
Mr. HUME interrttpte.l-1 hope I may be allowed to
pat a question—(Cries of Order ! and Go on! to Mr.
Ward.)
Mr. WARD—If the Hon. Member persists in the
motion he hag read-(Yes, yes! from olr. Hume), I
wish to understand what them %don is —(Cries of Read,
read !)
The Clerk then read the motion.
Mr. WARD resumed. He was always ready to admit,
that when the lion. Member understood a question, be
was not all inclined to misrepresent it to the House ; but
the misfortune was—that a Gentleman, whose research
was unexampled. and who laboured so diligently in what
be made so doubt be, Mt, Hume, considered the public

A ' I 21

4+itp,shthilki so frequently make stitc,is singular and sus-
picions mis-statements; however, he mould not rest the
question upon the mere privileged errors of the Honnn:-
able Member; but be would divide his argument into
three different parts, fut the mote successful cep:mute el
the unhappy misconceptions of the lion. Member for
Aberde•-n. In the first place he should sh•w that he ',ad
init-s'atrd the Reports in the twit Ogee he should show
that the Commissiuners had misrepresented the evidence
upon which they had formed that opinion, and in the last
pies* he should show. supposing the Report to be c0rr....-,
still there was such an alterttirn in the Board as to make
it impossible to attend to their suggestion*. Ard in the
first instance he had to complain of the manner in which
the Hon. Member found it convenient to garble that R.
port. He had stated it as the unqualified epinion of tie
Commissioners, that the appointment to which he object:
ed was unnecessary, and he quoted just as much of the
Report as SPI veil to give a colour tJ that op Mon ; but he
forgot to add, whit in candour he should not have sup:
pressed, that they stated " especially if the Master tie-
: ueral be rot withdrswn from immediate attendance"—
' (Hear!)—and further, that if this preliminary condition
were fulfilled, they had nothing to offer respecting the si-
' tuation of Lieutenant Gencral— (dear '.)—Such was'the
candour of the Hunnurehle bietither, and curb were rue
suppressions to which his ingenuity had resorted. The
Commissioners cid not speak at all p si ively, but only
said it occurred to them that the udire of Lieutenant-
' General of the Ordnance might be abolished, in the event
of certain things taking place—which never did take
place. With respect to his second position, he contended
that the Commissioners of Military' Inquiry did not
rightly understand the evidence on wilth they foundrd
their Report. They there stated, as the opinion' of Loa's
Ali:tire and Chatham, that the Lieutenant-li.neralship of
the Ordnance might be abolished ; but the evidence of
these two noblein• n al ogt tin r denied the fact. In the
absence of the Master-General, caused by Hitless or o her
' circumstances, the presence of the Lieu:snot-H.Bml
' was of great utility. The Connuissiot ecs only considered
the Lieut. nant-General as at the Ordnance Hoard, but he
' might have had, for aught that appeared before the Com-
' missioners, avast deal of other business, and to have to
' discharge many very important duties The linnonr &Mr
Member proceeded to read the tletalt.(l op: Mons a. giv• a
in evidence, particularly of Lord Chatham, and observe.i
tl•at he faithfully read the whole, not umi tiay,. part ,
r as had been don? by the Honour able NI raiber opposite.
Lord Cliche n said that the Lieutenant lira.r,,l ices t!,e

link between the Civil and Military part of the Or.inanett.
The. Howrurahle Member opposite imputed criminali..y
to the Noble Lord, without any proof that he deserved it
and nhy ? Because the Noble Lend bring surpois d
by some questions when under examination ott crab —•
an oath—(bear,)—required. as he ought, time ho
consider before he committed hints, If by wt toasty answer.
This conduct was turned against Lord Challain. and is
was broadly insinuated that he only wanted time in outer
to man ege the affair. Lord Chatham night have maw:
enemies here; the Hon. Member opposite might be or .e
of them; hut Lord Chatham never sa'd, nor did any
thing which could warrant the iruputatiens throne out
night against him. He acted as a clown's, proper, pre•
dent man, and he (Mr. W.) coutd not help roproacloim;
the Hon. Member (Mt. Hum -) for molting use of such an
unfow d d imputaion. Lwokinz ;lien at the evidence of
Lord Chatham, he was at a toes to conceive on what
grounds there could be any doubt of the utility of the
Lieut.-General of the Ordnance. The conduct of Lord
Chatham was designated as one of guilty management,
us-rely because, on a subject of some difficul y, he aske
a day for the purpose ot consideration, and thereby if
giving a better answer to the Commis4ioners. Theiluties
performed by a Lieutatirnmal of the Ordnance were
many and of great importance. lie prrs.ded at the
Board, and he transit' ted not only the evil business
coming before him there, hut also tlic military business
which made him, as Lord Chatham said, the link between
the one and the other. Ail the prisons who bad tilled thoot
situation were persons of the bi,:hest military talent—the
late lamented Sir H. Oakes, Lord Amberet, Lord Howe,
and, if necessary, he (ulit go on with a otrinz of
names of equal celebrity. It ev.,s absolutely neces-
sary that the Lieutenant General of the Or inance
anemic, be a military man. If any office of the Ordnance
were to be abolished, better let his (the Secretary's) loe
abolished if they wished for the goad of the department.
The Lieutenant-General superintended the elshors.e-
me nts of money and other 'natters, hut on those things
he (Mr. W.) would not build much ; but when all loos
several duties were estimated, the existence of such au
officer was highly necessary. So much then as to the
report of the Commissioners, which teas contradicted
by the evidence on which it teas founded, and which
was garbled and mutilated still inure by the lion. MeIll•
ber (Mr. Hume). A part of his argument was founded
on Mr. Crewe's evidence, as 'risking against that of the
Noble Lords he had before-mentioned ; hut looking

fairly to its result it did not differ front e hat they stated.
Besides the civil duties of the I.ieutenant-Den.h• had t,,
pay frequent visits to Woolwich on military aP:eirs, to
survey the Artillery and other invalids. Then with respect
to the allegation of two clerks bring* kept up at a salary
of 700!. a year each for that office, the fact was, that op-
en his own (Mr. W's) motion, they were done am ay at
I ast ten years ago—(hear! beer.)—He (Mr. Warde) ei6l
nut know if the house expected him to go throng,' all
the garbled statements made now by the Hon. Member
and about two years ago, when he took such wild and
erroneous views of the Ordnance Office. The mutioe
now was, as the notice perpore I, about the abolltian of
the Lieutenant-General, while the Hon. blember.uithout
any notice, proceeded to argue almost that the whole of-
fice should be abolished. If the Hon. Member were so
strong, he should in generosity have given *notice of the
full extent of his intention. But .16e Don. Member cutout
in, in his nseally sly way, and mixed up ten thou‘dnd
things with the avowed object of his motion. The Hoe.
Member desired them to look at what the Ordnance cost
in 1792 and what it cost now. But was the Ordnance is
the saute situation then as now? In 1792 they had so
Horse Artillery—no corps of Sappers and Milkers -the
half pay was then 20,01)01.1:er ann. now it it as 400,000 L
—Now they had 16 new Colonies to provide tor, and
in the East Indies there were great arrears of accounts,
owing to want of strength, not to laziness; and that want
of strength arising floes the gentry of the Hun. Member
(Mr. Hume). He next catne, however unwillingly, to
notice the gross, mischievous, unjust, an I crud ti-re-
presentation contained in the Hon. Member's unqualified
assertion, that Colonel Chapman got a pension of 41K11.
a-year, to make away for another person. He (Mr. W.)
begged of the Hon. Member, who real, he believed.
was not an ill-natured man, to look at the real state of
the ease, and do Ida own and the Colon I's character the
justice due them.. Colonel Chapman was employed by
the Duke of Wellington in fortifying the lines of Toms
Vedras; and wets new one of the only survivors of there
who so materially assisted in the defence of Forage!.
Next to Sir K. Fletcher, the Duke of We-Mutton consi-
dered the services of the Gallant Colonel, and therefore
represented him to the Government as deserving of re-
ward. The Colonel was subsequently appointed to the
office ; upon the laying down of which, he cla4eled
the promise which had been made to Lim before doing
so--(Hear, hear, hear!)—The. lion. Member fern:sein-
ed this as the object of a job: hat now that lie head the
case as it really existed, he wet sure the hon. Meade r
would be glad to do away the imeression he had eta if
upon the House. The charge was false, cruel, Anil an-
just ; it was most malignant and nefarious, that a man
who rendered such services to the Duke of Wellimooe
in the Peninsula. should he spoken of as he wee t •-ode
—(uter) Hs did not understand that cry of bear. If

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