The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-06-22 00:00:00

THE STATEVAN.

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Ilse to second the motion, among
Mr. P. Moore, Sir M. W. Rid-
ett. •

put,

regretted extremely In be corn.. ;
apy mouser to the subject of

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rler the unliany soil'-rcr callous to every ce,iti!lera., Court-Martial which had been 'Mailed to, but as the yet the instance.: were much more frequent than on- because the British had a spirit of indepeticlanae,
Con of me ;ality veil shame. And whet said that' list of punishments which had been Produced by der Colonel laribarts and himself—and many cases they should, tlearefora, be punishedin manster pat
sena oriel commentator on crimes and punishments ! Colonel Quentin in his defence as newer of accuse- occurred a those being brought to punishment, who,' severe and degrading fur the moat brutal and i4jmn.
he t
(Beceari;:), why, that barbarous punishments were ; lion stardust Lim, had been stated by his Hottourable previous to Colonel Q.'s arrival, had been the best ; rant of the speciee, lie cordially supported •
generalis the offspring of sloth and reseutrnent, and I Frientaas to the grqund of his motion, he trusted the soldiers in.. the regiment. The [lon. Member here , motion. •
did taut mark, it, any degree, the exertion of reason; lloamse word feel that it was
,impossible•for Mm, it, stated instances to prove the injustice and cruelty I Mr. M. SUTTON denied, that the °lint of his
or the sterjogation of passion, while they uniformly ! justice to las own conduct and character, to avoid of the mode pursued by Colonel Q. although he did i Hon. Friend's measure was eon procure
.some limits.
rje
ac.t of it was to
home,, and to
tattled rether to brutalize the sufferer than to prevent entering! into an explanation of the facts to which not impute to him intention' of the kind. On being ; Con of the punishment.
crime.. But neon what grouad, Mr. R. desired to !Ilwri &relied:a Witt -respect to any other parts of called to order by Colonel Wood, the Hon.. Member a6olish the punishment altogether'l ire
Itnawa• should a British soldier be subjected to such I the trial which slid not immediately relate to the stated, that he not only felt justified in what he had limit it when resorted to abroad. Ig' W.I 4 sur.titilt
punishments as were not inflicted upon any foreign ; question berme the House, the same motive which said, but compelled to justify himself from the serious ' His Honoureble Friend, and .thellonoetralate end
eeldier. He never heard at'sucliphrlihineittr-wirel'haSl Winced:him to drop the subject, would still pre. charge which he felt Colonel Q. had been the means Lesarned Gentleman, would admit, •wh-mteVet they
imillicted.upon the Perluw, eseevens when they were I vent him front alluding to it, viz. the consideration of bringing him to the House to defend. Although he I might think of the proposition, !MILO lessajt..!'''.l..
connected with our army, and it was understood ; oftolonel Quentiii•beiiiiigain in service with his. ,meant nothing personal towards that otlicer, he was I occasion a very great alteration in the. military- :ttv
Wet this barbarous mode ,of punishMent had been i regiMent, and the repugnance he felein doing or say. bound to contradict, and disprove all the assertions ! risdiction of the country. It hewers .gscegasary,`
aliolished in all foreign nations. In the French army ! ing icy thing that might be injurious to him when he had made upon the trial. relative to the question' therefore, to enquire, whether existirtg,circurnitanctet
it was notorious that the peehlunent of flogging had absent under such circumstances. With respect to , before the House, and to expose.to the utmost of his' demandedso radical a change. It was .well;. batau
been long unknown.. P,e had, indeed, heard that the general (petition of corporeal punishment, every ! power the folly and mischief of his conduct.aa relate that corporal punishment had, within the; lag years,
when at the commencement of the Revolution it was : one must feel that nothing but its absolute necessity ; ing to the discipline of the regiment. The lion. been igreatly on the decline. , Courts-Martial were
attempted to flog a soldier siith the flat of a sabre, ' could justify the practice; but it could not be denied Member, alter some further 'observations in reply to .'themselves most anxious to award a diffepreeneitiammetnist:hs
the soldier eaclaimeartriat he liked• no part of the that discipline was essential for the government of the, the mover of the question, hoped the House, what- ! scent; and the 'majority of corporal punishments,
sabre but the edge, \Ater exclamation, marking the army, and the only doubt was bow far other men- ever might he their opinion upon it,. would give him ' during the period in question, had been on the sere
soldier's preference of ile' atli to the disgrace of flog.. sines might not be adopted than those now objected : credit for the motives by which hebad been actuated. vice alobad, _ With respect to imprisonment, some
gibe; became proverbial in the French army, and to. He did not pretend to understand the subject I Coronet WOOD, in adverting to ,the .system of ; diffieultiee had occurred from.a want of private cells
excited universal disgust against the ignominious better than other Officers, but contended that it was ! the 10th Hussars, .said,•frons what;- be had heard, in .prisoin; and complaints. had been sent to then
pteatetice,• and what belonged to the character of a Brie a question upon which military men alone were capa- i.tiot only as tit the • present condition, of that regi- i Horse-Guards,- of soldiers having been mixed with
tish soldier to•warrant the presumption that he would ble of judging ; and although he gave due credit to, scent ; but as to its past, there was not one in the other prisoners of ail descriptions. Sufficient limn
brook, or should be subjected to that punishment at the motives of his Hon. Friend, and others, who I service. more conspicuous for discipline and order. ; bad not yet elapsed for carrying into execution the
wfilch all the other armies of Europe revolted, Which had from time to time brought the question forward, :It might be considered 'invidious •to make compari-!Measuieitrrhich had been suggested op this subject.
indeed was abolished in every other army. He was it had been productive of serious mischiefs to the . sons • between different. regiments, but he was in- He slieuld-be sorry to see this matter interfeeed wide
assured by a 'Prussian Officer, that although flogging service, by tending to unsettle and irritate the minds ' formed that the FAOI. of Uxbridge, when. he re- . —he believed the reform was at present making its
prevailed in the Prussian army presious to the battle of the soldiers, %%Mist it had intimidated officers in ; viewed. the cavalry lately, said, that he had long own way better then would be effected byany le-
of Jena, it had ever since'been abolished; and it was their exertions to maintain discipline. in their regie • beeneittempting to mske his own regiment, the 7th, gislative interference. He could not help thhking
--,h in Russia the infliction of the . ments. He maintained that the power of corporal stile most
;perfect, but they were surpassed by the that the limiting the number of lashes to 100 woad'
'n, the punishment of flogging punishments, the propriety of which haul never been ' 10th. With respect to the Motion-before the• House, be retaining every thing odious in the punishment,
«ebbed in the Russian army.— disputed till of late years, was more necessary now he had no doubt The licinoorable Gentleman who ' and depriving it of every thiug efficacious. It was
be continued in this country ? than ever. When the Commander-in-Chief first . brought it forward was actuated by the most just ' his:firne opinion- that if any liniit were assigned to
be told that an English soldier came into office, about twenty years ago, the army ' and humane motives e.but he hoped he would also the punishment, the result would be ;n itiet,lreesert
'useof honour and regard to was upon so small a scale, that it Was the custom to i allow that Commanding.Clilicers might feel as much severity, or if not an increased severity,a9 lucre sect -
It those modes of correction admit none but men of good character into regi. humanity and compassion for their soldiers. lie frequency of penishment. The lionourtible. and
(ective in othir armies, could merits, who were dismissed in case of misconduct.— was ready to admit that corporal punishment might Learned Gentleman had alluded to amen-cos 4,
upon his conduct.' But should Since the army had been so much increased, it had be abolished with the greatest ease in langiand, but 1500 lashes having been inflicted on one individual
t
later!, he would reply, byre- been impossible tam keep to this rule ; and now. not' if it were abolished, the consequence would he, that Ile did not mean to contradict the liomturable ant"
,f corporal punishment in the 'only all descriptions of persons were admitted, but many serious offences which were now punished by Learned Gentleman, but lie had never.)terren
.of
as the manner in which this these who turned out to be the worst possilde chew- flogging, such as mutiny for example, would then any such punishment having been receisra, 4,1(1,14
s universally sjinkeit of. He
.ters, and cepahlwa any crime or enormity, were be punished with death ; and it was certainly a mat- thought it bad never occurred since he was in &fiat.
within the last yriai•isnieteref obliged to be retained-in the reeiments to which they ter worthy of consideration to reflect, whether it 'The Court that had awarded such 4 maples vfout4
rat elieeta th'e Brisesh army vas. belonged, With respect to the cases which had word(' be desirable to make such a change in our have been reprimanded.
asLuri that•hol one sent fllenit of. been Pr"dneeds he hoped not only to justify the me- existing military system. With respect to limiting . Mr. FORBES said, during a residence-of termer
regard to the mode of punish- times of Ms conduct., but the benefit of the sydern ' ties number or lashes that should be intlicted on ge- years in I irdia, he had Owe) a observed, that in ifs*
....`ettuntries where he was treated which, fee the gotta, of the service, he had awn in- neral service,• to one hundred, he did not feel him- regiments where there was the most fagging, theta!,
iirtedess' as in 'Englishman.. 'merely . du(•ell to act ut;ott. Preuioca to the regiment heitter self qualified to speak upon that point, not having ' was always the least real diOplitte. • IV, there..
tervices, anti• respect for • the abroad, at the period mentioned, it had been curer- seen foreign service; but he believed that such pu- . cote, apppreved of the limitation proppied: ...... a.
h army ; and 'the general I.n.iter•sd its London, under the command of Colonel Q.; nishment was inflicted as lightly as possible, coo- I Gen. IjA 11'1'5am, punishment' had then intact( lesr
'was, ;that they felt afflicted and lie was obliged, in justice to himselfz to declare. emendy with the maintenance of that discipline frequent of late % ears. • • • .
ire •etusened - day: the.' cries of that the regiment at this time was in that relaxed . which Was necessary in actual service. .- I Mr. A. ROBINSON said, that froml7Bo dowry.
he, infliction of the' taste-Istate of discipline to which the punishments after- Colette!. PACRENHAM vindicated the necessity wards, he would vesture to say, that iit the Bengal
'of tt:ch punishment was indeed words complained of were to• be attributed. The of corporal punishment in particular instances, and, Establishment the practice of Commanders of Regi.....
rvoltiug, especially to the hearts men were in- the habit of getting drunk and absent- contended thatthe honour and feelings of the Officers ments benefiting by the gale of liquors was altogether...
;reaction our countrymen had ing themselves from duty ; the frequency of these themselves would be
.found in general a. 1111111Cient i discouraged.
red.. But Stich puitiahment was .crimes being attributable to the impunity with which check upon excessive and cruel punishments. If the i Sir F. BURDCTT hoped his Hon. Friend mkt,* • .4.
• country. 01 the contrary, it they were suffered. Colonel Q. was certainly in bad present system was a bad one, let it be overturned . bring the subject forward early next Session, 'wheiea
ourselves to have this punish- ; health at this time ; but being in the command, was altogether; bat If Officers were to he trusted at all, ' there should be a more full attendance of the }reuse '•
obscure places, ire barrack yards, the only person who was, or could be, responsible he thought their discretionary power should be left athan at present. NVith 'respect to the melancklY ',.
-ntl this custom betrayed a ra. : for the discipline. On the regiment being ordered , without mitred. • ' . I and black catalogue which formed the graelia•Work
,c feeling, which so powerfully" abroad, and the command devolving on him (the ; Mr. W. SMITH reprobated in very strong lane of the speech of his lion. Friend, it was a dritmonent
a. system of cruelty. Bot it : lion. Member), the conduct 'of .the men on ;landing r gunge the practice of degrading men by subjecting which was deserving of the utmost attention.-' ale
,o person dared treat any animal were such as might be expected from soldiers who ' them to a punishment in the highest degree disgrace- had at different times himself moved for the black
such' manner as our soldiers were :lied such means of procuring wine, and had nut been ! ful, and one which must have an inevitable tendency books of regiments, but they had always beep withs..„
rfliction of floggings-a-Ukase -! iestrained'in habits of drinking'at home—nearly the 'to debase the characters of those who were the oh- held. The account of the gallant .Celenel (Palmer) s
lowest indignation of the public j Whole regiment was in a .state of riot and drunken- ' jects of it. To deny that such must be the cense. ' was not one which gave hint the higirevt idea of his
• him.—[/fear, hear !:]--lt .was f wen. Thus situated, Le* considered it his duty to' quenee, was a sort of reasoning upon human nature judgment- The system which he pursued its opposi.%
officers
majority of our revolt- I the regiment and the seterice, to adopt the best means which he confessed he (lid not comprehend. The , lion to that of Colonel Quentin,•eppeared tq him air
-that many of these gallant gen- I. to restore its discipline, and to keep it in that : frequency of flogging was the thing the molt to be !cruel as it was inefficient. For what tads been dee
cheerfully front the utmost dan. ! healthy and' effective slate which might enable it to' condemned. If it were reserved. for the pe•!-!"-^t•t effertS of thei.e dreadful punishments? -the system
sold ts seek the bubble repute.; perfOrm The duty it•was so soon to he called upon te.; now and then of some most abandoned Lliarsctea, it.. had been going on for IS months, end the punkli-
.ll's mouth," could not endure I perform; 'bet before he adopted those measures I would . not be so had es the present mode of ram'.' menu were as many in the last as the first Month.—
scene, indeed, was intolerable I which the rules of the service had laid down, he as- !-liariaing tote soldiers to it. I His Hon. Friend objected to this punistment—first,
But to return to the effect of ! sembled the whole regiment, and, after pointing out I Lord PALMERSTON observed, that those who ! because it was brutal, inhuman, and Alisgracifel ;
;lcent upon the army. It was I the necessity of checking their conduct, he pledged 4. opposed the measure did so, not because they pre- ' and next, because it was altogether inefficient.—
ever operated to reform those I himself to bring every man to trial and punishment formed the mode of military punishment against which , Nothing could justify such a punishment but neces-
Acted, however it might serve who should be reported arid found guilty of the nab- it was directed, but because they were convinced of sity, and the opponents of • hl• Hon: Friend could
:heir own estimation, and that of. lest of duty that called for it. The consequence the absolute necessity, for the purposes of discipline, ' show no necessity. In all ether al inieslaut ear own,
tirades. Nothing was more true, I was, that in less than a month, and at the expertee that the Commanding Officers should have the power .or at least in most of them, po Heir necessity existed.
terbial observation, that flogging ;of only four or five punishments, the men, on find- l'of inflicting the punishment if they thoeght.,propet.! No man would deity that prinlshment, a ~ui eves K.
bad, and a bad soldier worse, I hie he was determined, immediately altered their life referred to the orders of the Commander to Chief, ; were punishment, was necessary; bat wet (bereft*
ances might be quoted to show I conduct, and from the state which he had described . and to the practice of the army, that no disposition oilier punishment but that of stripping a.Wisiet
t
es in which flogging was MOO the regiment became in as good order as any in the existed frequently to inflict this punishment. As to tieing him to the halbert', and treating Mi.tra
best preservede--[liege, hear I ; service; and he was sure the officers would state, allowing the punishment to be inflicted in foreign beast? He opposed flogging because it areaditgrace-
related by the American his. ! that it had never been in the same state of discipline i stations, and dispensing with it at•home, the Hon. fit to human nature. In the tape of the *forgive,
1 of Major Andre's execution ; in England, nor could it have been under the system; Gentleman did not 'recollect that by the occurrence ' science was applied to see whether Aye last paisoisso
people, served to illustrate the which had been before pursued. It was a maxim in !of sech event's is rebellion or invasion, the military'. had yet beut—whether an addition mild yet hematite
'barons punishment which never the army, that drunketesess was the origin of every; at home might be.plactel precisely. in the iituation of to the punishmemit—whether another a pant/ Ile given
ion the feelings of the English, crime in a soldier, and it ought to he the first object 'the military abroad. The independent spirit. which :to the victim. •Tbis punishment Was a national dm-
'he circumstances of the case, the of discipline to check this evil : but he considered : the civil institutions of this country generated; red- grace. In the Russian army, which was the nest in
;sed his r( iiiiction that the sys- .the mode which had been adopted in the 10th. and ' dared it necessary that our soldiers alienist be kept , severity to our own, this mode of punishment was
as adver:e to the character of he believed in other regiments, inadequate for the • itt a proper state of subordination, by puniihments hot resorted to,• and' was ennsialered disgraceful to
• fia.l gene to 'such an excess /Is purpose. The men were-only settled with every two , more severe than those resorted to in foreign coon- . humanity. Why should the British soldier he alone
•el the interference of the Isegis- months, when an opportunity was given them of : tries, where military subrulasiort• was more easily.exe ',liable to this ignominious toripre ?: A - Noble Lord '
null, be eas assured, be foiled Igetting rid of the whole of their pay as soon as tang.; l'acted. He denied that' the case on %Ida the lion. (Palinerstonitted accounted for it by Obaerving,.thai
,ti,r modes of ',nub:Lunen, Atom sihle at the publie-house •;. when deprived of the 'Member principally rested, at all tore him out ill 'there was somethinOh the Coestitution of the cowri-
e, .lion of military discipline, •reeens. of getting drunk, their sobriety might he cal. 1 his argument ; for it was simply that.of a regiment I try that made its natives so Sturdy and high.minded
our national character. It i ciliated upon till-- the next settling limy. Bet the I which, having been in a very bad state of discipline, • that it WO absolutely necessary that these noble qua-
-4,, .ements, the object of the t consequence of this was, that •they "never could be underwent a great number of corporal punishments; ' tides shobid be flogged out 'of them by the cat-rebate-
to ,g forward, to limit. the .depended en *heti:they had money, and be believed.; and after alapse of time; returned to an excellent state tails before they made good soldiers ; but
surely the
on i. . :git service to ion, while •it had never accursed that the regirneet baffnever !.of discipline. The pro Posed measure was not one of. Noble Lord would not persist in au argument, the
Indersioeil tell to abolish the quieted one quarter for another, -that each troop did mercy. It was a measure which would lead to a tendency of which was to show that the nearer a ,
home. li, feeding the quart. ems-afford more or less evidences of drunkenness.; punishment still more severe than that which i: tended •men approached to ditinity the more fit it was to treat
be inflicted abroad, he warren- mid he 111.0ligilt he proved the benefit of his own rip- to abrogate—death. , hint likes beast.—[lleac,hearl- Yet it could not be
e which prevailed iii our wavy,- I. tem. by stating, that when the regiment left Lisbon! Sir S. ROMILLY represented to the House, that denied that our ancestors possessed as strongly the
halt six or eight dozen lashes at ere joinenut alf 'MK 'men there was but one individual . the question before them was not the actual limit of love of independence as their successors, yet military
Ile did not think it necessary of the 'whole who was found intoxicated. During ''the punishment; but whether it should have any flogging was unknown among dense Who had itchier'.
instances of severity then those the ten months that the regiment lay there, the Hon.' limit at all. When in the last Session he had pro- eel the greatest triumphs the nation had to boast.—
r the necessity of Legislative in. Member wonkt find, if he looked at the list, that . posed a these in the Mutiny Bill, limiting the num- Military flogging was of modern introduction, and
inject. 11.11 he apprehended that e only eight then bad been punished for drunkenness her of lashes to one hundred, he had been induced its justification depended upon. arguments that would
Jet roll of ether regiments, he; un Aluty ; and considering the state of discipline to to withdraw his proposition by the manifestation of neser have been heard at army oilier lime. Therapri•
more instances to enforce that ,which the regiment had been brought, he thought he' a disposition on the other side, which it now up- 'ciousness with which this punishment was inflicted
indeed heard of oilier r -giments could not prove More clearly the advantages of the peered did not exist. AS the punishment was now was another reason for its abotition : it depended
;y acid severity of corporal pu- system which had teen pursued. Colonel Q.'s health inflicted, God had not given to the beings who were entirely upon the will 'of' the Cfesers, and that' was
excessive, but those regiments being re-established, he went out to take the corn- its objects capacity to endure the agony which it cc- guided by no rule, and governed by no •scale ; kt was
.open or necessary to name on, mind, anal he (the •llon. Member) was in cense- casintied. It was true that the present Commander necessary that some reotsiction should be placed up'
Ater qureing from the document .quence obliged to return home for a short period ;in Chief evinced a meritorious disposition to repress on it—so thought the Comm inder-ht-Chief, who had
ided to with respect to the 10th hilt from the amides! march of the regiment before the punishment as much as possible, but he might be sent round a regimental letter to effcct the purpose,
surely be said that he had.not colonel Q. joined, the regiment-continued for an-. succeeded by another of different iodination. The which, however, had not received the attentien it
y Sullicieut•to justify the propts other two months ender thoceromenti of Major•Ro- ! milder practice which at present prevailed, was to be deserved. it was now for the first time acknew•
limit to the Mouse. The flan.. harts, who pursued the. same system of discipline,' ascribed solely to that discussion of the subject, 'edged by the Judge-Advocate, that the infliction of
its noosing ((tripod. to bring in and .With the same success, (2r it 'appeitred in evi- , which in the first instance a Right Hon. Gentlemen, a sentence at two or three different times was Hiegel,
mbar of lashes to be inflicted by ditto upon (of one) Q.'s triatihat nothing-could ex- ' now no more, had declared would he productive of yet it was an abuse that had long prevailed, and had
card the good order of the regiment during this pee ! infinite mischief; but which, on the contrary, had been the instrument of unheard-of cruelties. It was
riod, and that eery few punistmenti had 'been in. I been productive of the greatest benefits. The pre. a singular fact, corroborated. by the speech of the
Meted: - When Colonel* Q. arriret4 the system being i since of a surgeon at these punishments, instead of Hon. Col. (Painter). that in those regiments where
.ehanged,ille discipline 'of the regiment was destroy.l proving their humanity proved their cruelly, as it these corporal inflictions were most frequent, the
ed,' and 'flettlingieould exceed the drunkeimesi and showed the danger of the punishment becoming the discipline was the must lax, and tin small praise w"
elersses of all kinds that 'were 'committed ; not enei punishment of death, by the most exquisite torments. due to Col. Quentin, that considering what had b''e't
miss* twenty- who deserved it was punished, and He ridiculed the argument of the Noble Lord, that the state of the 10th regiment) he had now placed it
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*pea fai footing so admirable. To sho* the excess
to which military flogging had been in some cases
citrried; the Hon. Baronet referred to proceeltings at
Gibraliat many year% ago, when a new instrument
way intrbduced. which would kill a man in flo lashes,
-mid for not employing which several officers were
dismissed the •eivice, thoegh afterwards they were
h.-instated. die contended that corporal potiiyh.
mutt was re,tileted neceysary by the inadequacy of
pay and rewards in she army, which occasioned the
men to be discontented with the service, often to
diyobey. and snintwirne4 to mutiny. With regard IQ
the orpiment of the led4e Advocate, that the flog.
in of snl.liers was tiecravirst for the Bike of htynno.
ity, best sPatething worse "Should be introduced, he
could only apply what as Frenchman, under the old
regiese. had said against the abolition of breaking on
the wheel: that his nation was accustomed to that

muds n< puniubotint, and wnuld not be Sitififiell or

quiet witbnat it, lest snot greater cruelty should be
4 invented aed enlieyed.
Lerd P A 1.11 ivrro N explained.
Mr. SAW:lc:Tom did nal flint the stfetion no.

Cessary. be would prefer se salutary an -laureation in
military law to emanate from the tatters ihenielves
, and not from the Legislature.
Sir F. BULLER denied that roes wan discharged
from the Navy after receiving corporal punishment.

Sir F. BUR.Dgrr explained.

Mr. BENNETT reptied, sad the *Wei Will Boa
tectstissid withnut a diskion.
finrcl PkLMERSTON obtained leave tos king in a
II UM to dittoontinoe certain balibpay detWff nos, and
far forthet reitelatiens thereat;' and also one for
4‘ (;ra,ltioa esonitt powers to the Commiltaioners for
tegulatiog the Rama Pensions on the Chelsea Esta.
bl ish roe ot.' Adjourned."—