The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-01-17 00:00:00

THE VA!

vernment—in that provision certain dispositions had
been thought proper to be made by them,—but these
revenues were now, by the unfortunate event which
had taken place, necessarily transferred to him;who,as
Regent, was substituted in the place of him who
wore the Crown,—to the person who was in the ex-
ercise of the Functions of Sovereignty. The Gown
was at present provided for, and the neir Apparent
welegalso provided for; Thr most newel -wars'
proceeding therefore was—Give to. him whoexercises
• the functions of sovereignty, all that is' deemed ne-
cessary for the support of the Crown : and give to
the heir Apparent all that Parlitunent may have also
thought necessary for the seppbrt 'of his dignlfy.—He
should have thought it necessary, therefore, that the
amount of the other branches of revenue, with the.
proposed deductions from them, should have been
stated, and then the amount of the revenue which
the Prince had right to as Heir Apparent, so that it
might at once be seen whether the amount of the lat-
ter exceeded or fell, short of these deductions ; and
if it fell short, it was then the duty of the House
to vote such a specific sum to his Royal Highness,
as would make the revenue to be possessed by him
as good as what was possessed by his Father,
when reigning Sovereign of this country.—But
instead of this simple and obvious mode of pro-
ceeding, the 'Right Honourable Gentleman, by first
taking so much from the Civil List, and then taking
so much from the revenue of the Prince of Wales,
had introduced such a complexity into his whole
plan, that, for his part, he was not ashamed to say,
he could form no accurate conception of it. The
Right Hon. Gent. had stated to them, on the authority
of the evidence of the Physicians,_ that it would re-
quire a considerable sum of money to keep up such a
state 'of splendour as might render the situation of
his Majesty comfortable. Whatever might be neces-
sary for that purpose, no man could more cheerfully
consent to grant than himself, for no man could feel
more for the distresses of his Sovereign, or be more
sincerely disposed to contribute to their alleviation ;
but he could find nothing ih the evidence of the Phy-
sicians ; and he had attended,the Committee from the
beginning to the end of their examination, which in
the least justified the supposition of the Right Hon.
Gentleman. He had contemplated the possibility of
his Majesty's recovering to a sort of middle state, a
state which would neither be perfect sanity nor yet
insanity ; a state in which he might remember his for-
mer situation, and entertain just views on many of
the ordinary occurrences of life, and yet not possess
such a degree of j udgment as to render him fit for the
resumption of the royal function ; a state which he
might safely say would certainly be the most calami-
tous to his Majesty that it is possible for the mind of
man to conceive—for what could be a great2r calami-
ty than to be restored to such a degree of sensibility
as might render him alive to all the horrors of his un-
happy state, and add to his other miseries the consci-
ousness of his degradation ? But there was nothing in
the evidence of the Physicians to justify this suppo-
sition. The Right Ilonourable Gentleman had at-
tended the Committee as well as himself, and this
middle state must have been equally present to his
mind et that time as at the present ; but he would
put it to him if he had put any question to the Physi-
cians respecting the possibility of this intermediate
state, or had obtained any evidence from them on the
subject. All the Physicians, with the exception of
Dr. Simmons, had said that his Majesty recovery was
extremely imprubable, one of them had said that it
was all but impossible ; but what evidence was there
of this sort of nondescript state anticipated by the
Right Honourable Gentleman. As to the evidence
'of Dr. Simmons, if the Right Honourable Gentleman
should think proper to give it a resonsideration, he
was afraid he would find but very little comfort in
that evidence ; fur though it had been stated by Dr.
Simmons, that he had found instances of persons re-
covering at that advanced period of life, yet those in-
stances were very rare indeed ; and this very remark-
able circumstance had been also stated by him,
that ho had never known one instance of a blind
person labouring under insanity who had finally
recovered—that he had known only seven cases
of this description, and that all of them had proved
unfortunate cases.—So that the Right Honour- I
able Gentleman could not justify the sum which he
required for the maintenance of the dignity and corn.;
fort of his Majesty, on the evidence of Dr. Simmons,'
or on the evidence of any of the other Physicians.—
What was, there, in the peculiar situation of his Ma-
jesty, lie would ask, ich could make the existence!
of such a large establishment necessary to his com-
fort? Could he see the splendour with which it was
proposed to surround him P—That was impossible. i
Were there attendants to be obtained familiarly to
approach him ?—This the nature of his case would
not allow. That was then necessary to his Majesty ?
Was it such an establishment as might enable him on
his return to a happier state to resume, without diffi-
culty,
his Royal functions ?—This was the considera-
tion
by which the House had last year been influenc-
ed ; but the case was widely altered at present-1
when, from the concurring cordance of all the Physi-
cians,
little or no hopes of this return was left. If this
happy return should ever take place, the exercise of
the Royal power would also return to him, and all ,
the functions of Royalty would necessarily revert to
him again. There was another part of the statement
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, to which he could not
help adverting, and that was, that on account of the
diminished domestic state of the King,a smaller num-
ber of coaches and horses would be rendered necessary,
and that 10,0001. additional should, on this account,
be granted to her Majesty, the Queen—that is be-
cause his Majesty requires fewer coaches and horses,
an additional income becomes necessary to the Queen.
But how could the diminution of the expeuce neces-
sary to his Majesty, create an additional increase of
expence to the Queen ?—When his Majesty was in
the possession of .health, he used these things
for his own purposes ; and when he was out '
of health, they were not necessary to the com-
forts of the Queen. Because the King was not in a I
state to enjoy his usual comforts, it was not surely
necessary to put her Majesty, the Queen. to any ad-
ditional expence. This was a mode of reasoning
which he confessed himself utterly unable to com-
prehend. The Right Honourable Gentleman had
said that there were circumstances attending the situ.]
ation of his Majesty which did not attend that of his
Royal Highness the Prince Regent ; 'and that the
• "-linseed of the latter would necessar4 be-one.'

Irrir•
„"-•

lESMAN.

' .• •

more limited scale, because his family was not so
large as that of his father. He confessed himself not
sufficiently acquainted with the details of the. Civil
List to be able to give any opinion on this subject;
-but he certainly was inclined to think, from the little
he knew, that the Right lion. Gentleman had very
much overrated the difference. of expence, if he
thought that with any material deduction on such an
!amount, it "gravid be in the power of the-Prince Re-
gent to display that magnificence which his father
was-enabled to do; for he was of opinion, that the
greatest part of the expence did not arise from the
number of children, and that it was on that account
Much .the same, whether there were three or four
more, or three or four leSs. But he would repeat,
that lie did not possess a sufficient acquaintance with
this subject to enable him to speak with any thing
like certainty. Indeed this observation would with
propriety apply to the whole of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman's plan, in which there was a com-
plexity, that in his mind was not to be got over.—
Unless the Right Hon.Gentlentan, therefore, should
think proper to shew him a simple and more obvious
plan, he could not see with what propriety he could
allow himself to vote the sums stow demanded by
him, because it was the duty of Parliament never to
grant any money unless the people might be clearly
enabled to see that they were justified in snaking such
grant. They had already had sufficieut experience,
that if there should be any thing inexplicable in their
conduct, there were not wanting those who hal every
inclination to charge them with prodigality, or what
was perhaps worse. It was the duty of the House,
therefore, to make it clear to the public, that at a
period like the present, when the expences of the
situation in which the country was involved, were
so enormously large, they were strictly warranted
by the necessities of the case, in voting whatever
sum they might think proper to bestow. There was
another head of expence to which the Right lion.
Gentleman alluded, respecting which he had also to
profess himself entirely ignorant, and that was the
100,0001. necessary to defray the expence at-
tending the assumption of the Regency. When this
expence had been mentioned on the former year, it
was well known by all of them, that his Royal
Highness had then declined receiving any thing
from the public on that account. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had told them that he would
be able to satisfy the House that the sum was not
more than what was adequate for the occasion.—
This he might, or he might not, he able to do ; but
certainly his Royal Highness could expect no more'
from that Honse than a disposition to grant whatever
sum should be shown to them to be necessary under
each head of expenditure. Upon the whole, lie
hoped that the Right Honourable Gentleman would
not wish to hasten the consideration of the Resolu-
tions, but allow them to lie for a few days on the
table ; in which case he assured him he would endea-
vour to comprehend that plan, which, nt present,
he was not ashamed to confess himself totally unable
to do. He did not mean to say that he objected to
the plan either particularly, or in all its parts ; all
that he meant to say was, that he did not wish to be
understood to have consented to it either in whole or
in part. He wished to grant what the splendour of
Monarchy required, and more than this he was cer-
tainly unwilling to do.
The CHANG E1.1.0R of the EXCHEQUER, stated
that he should have no objection to allowing the Resolu-
tions 1) inx on the table, did he not conceive that the plan
would with more propriety come under consideration at
a subsequent period. The natural course, if the Resolu-
tions were adopted, would be for a Bill to follow
them. He was sensible, that when communicating
to the Conimittee so.extensive a plan as the present,
and he had es ted that circumstance to them, the
House would hardly be enabled to follow him, and
he had also stated to them that more full informa-
tion would be afforded them when the Bill should be
brought in. The Resolution, as was well known,
was the first step ; for till their Resolution was
agreed to, no Bill could be introduced. No Bill could
be brought in till Monday, and at that time he should
not have the smallest objection to enter upon any
discussion which might be thought necessary. In
what the Right lion. Gentleman opposite had said
respecting his Majesty, he confessed himself unable to
comprehend what it was that he would wish. He
seemed to think, that his Majesty should be allowed
every comfort trec,ssiry to his situation; but surely
the Right Honourable Gentleman ought to have re-
flected also, that he was still our King, and that he
was not to be entirely siript of every appearance of
Royal splendour.—pleur fl—The Right Honour-
able Gentleman, in examining the present plan, had
appeared to allude to the Report of the Physicians
respecting •the hopelessness of his Majesty's reco-
very, and of their total silence respecting that in-
termediate period, which he (Mr. Perceval) had
contemplated the possibility of ; and it would seem
that he thought the attendance upon his Majesty
should, on that account, resemble that of an ordinary
sick chamber. He confessed that this, if it was the
opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, was by no
means that of himself ; that it appeared to him, there
was a middle course, which it would be much more
becoming to follow ; that as lie was not inclined to
invest his Majesty with all the Royal dignity, under
the unhappy circumstances in which lie was placed
—so it would be uttterly repugnant to propriety, on
the other hand, to strip him of every office of charac-
ter and dignity—[hear .9—The Right Hon. Gentle-
man seemed to think that he had not discharged his
duty, because he had not enquired of the Physicians
whether his Majesty might recover more or less, so
as to be restored to a certain portion of understand-
ing, without enjoying the full use of his faculties.--
But he would ask them, if this was a point for which
it was impossible to provide from a general know-
ledge alone of such a situation as that of his Majesty ?
Were they not aware, that up to last July, when his
Majesty experienced an accession of the disorder, that.'
he was In habits of personal intercourse with his fa
-
roily and with his servants ? For himself, he had
before that period, more than one interview with his
Majesty; and though it appeared to him evident
that he was not then in a situation to resume the
reins of Government, yet that in the ordinary
intercourse of society, he was capable of reason-
ing, both with respect to past and future events.—
He therefore could not see the necessity for in-
quiring of the Physicians the probability of
the recurrence of such a situation, or agree, that

because such inquiry had not been made, it was
therefore necessary to provide for that recurrence.—
Were they so unacquainted with the nature of in.
sanity as not to know, that it was a very common
casein that malady for the persons afflicted with it,
not only to converse and act with propriety in many
of the alfairs of life, but also to possess the power
of enjoying the pleasures and comforts of life, as far
as the malady would allow them to enjoy them. lie
agreed, however, in thinking with the Right „Hon.
Gentleman, that such a state would be a heavy
calamity to his Majesty; but why should they be
accessary to render that calamity, which was already
great, still greater? Ou thii subject, however, he
would not enter further at present. He merely rose
,for the purpose of stating, that the delay required
would more .appropsiately take place when the Bill
came to be presented, and to lie on the table.

Mr. POSTSONBY'confessed the more he. content.
plated tae plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman,
the less he understood it, though he hoped that in
time ise should be enabled to understand it. lie had
said nothing of the feeling of persoual comfort of his
Majesty, lnd had merely opposed an increase of es-
pence on the Right Ilonourabje Gentleman's owa
motion, and not on the evidence of the Physicians.
The Right Honourable Gentleman had asked if they
would increase the sad calamity of his Majesty?—
Certainly not ; but would not the Prince Regent be
in possession of the Civil List? And it it was 'mini.
fest that the comforts of his Majesty's situation could
in any way be promoted, did any man doubt that
his Royal hness would provide for them, or that
Parliament would refuse to provide for them ? This
was casting a doubt respecting the future intentions
of the Regent, more calumnious, in his opinion,
than any thing which had occurred in the discussions•
of last year. Before he sat down, he would ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman a question on the subject of
the 100,00 al. which had before escaped him. DA
his Royal Highness agree to renounce his claim as
Duke of Cornwall, and was this sum given in consi-
deration of that circumstance?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
said he had nothing to propose to the House on that
subject.--W itca it had formerly come before the
House, he had then given it ai his opinion, that the
claim of his Roc•al Highness was without any foun-
dati4n, encl lie had seen nothing since that time to
render any alteration in his opinion necessary. lie
had, however, no difficulty in stating, that as far a;
it was possible to judge from looking back to the
bates of that period, it was his opinion that his
Royal Iffighneis had then agreed.to relinquish his
claim. _ _ _

Mr. PONSONBY said he merely asked the ques-
tion for the information of the House.

Mr. VERNEY observed, with respect to the
100,0001. it was needless to say any thing at present;
but if it could afterwards be shewn that this was ne-
cessary to defray the expence cast on his Royal Mgt!.
ness last year, and the splendour necessary to be dis-
played in assuming the situation which he was about
to undertake, he, for ene, should not have the smallest
objection to agree to it. He wished to say a few
words on the plan submitted to them that night, by
the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, because
of the complete dilemma in which he had been placed
by him ; for it was necessary, before consenting to
vote for this plan, at least to understand it, and this
he, for one, was utterly unable to do. It appeared,
however, that they were asked a sum of money for
the establishment of a second Court. His Majesty
was still, it would appear, to be considered as the
Sovereign of the Country, and the Regent merely
substituted for the purpose of carrying on the func-
tions of the Executive. He, for one, would not
deny that any portion of splendour belonged to time
man to whom the name of King belonged. No man
was ever more belovec! than George the Third was by
the people of this country, and had the Right lion.
Gentleman so called upon them, he would have
been the first to testify the affection which he par-
took, in common with every one of his fellow sub-
jects; but still he must look to the splendour of
the Executive Power, and take care that no other
Court whatever came into contact with it. By this
new constitution of things, however, the Queen, it
seems, on b"half of his Majesty, was to have one
Court, and the Prince Regent another Court. Was
that necessary? Sure he was that it was dangerous.
But could the Right Hon. Gentleman make out its
necessity ? With respect to his Majesty, he would
never to the latest moment of his life forget that he
was his King : but still it was necessary for the Right
Hon. Gentleman to satisfy the country that the new
splendour with which he proposes to invest her Ma.,
jesty's Court was at all necessary for the comfort of
his Majesty. When he examined the list of those
who were to constitute the Queen's Court, it was
impossible not to smile when he observed the number
• of- Officers proposed—the Master of the Robes,
Grooms of the Stole, Lords of State, Equerries,
&c. And in order to take care of the private pro-
perty of his Majesty, three new Officers with salaries
were thought fit to be created, a business with which
Parliament could certainly have nothing to do.
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEW ER here
observed, that these salaries were to be defrayed out
of the private property of his Majesty, and not out
of the public money.
Mr. Ti ERNEY observed, he had nothing at all to
do with that money—[ Hear, hear !] But could any
man be so blind as not to see the drift of the Right
Hoti. Gentleman, in his disposal of all this influ-
ence?—[Hear, hear I] From the manner in which
the Right Hon. Gentleman had, on the opening of
his speech that night, spoken of the Regency Bill, it
almost looked as if he wished to make a bargain
about the taking off the Restrictions. He must boa
a separate Court, with her Majesty at the head 01
it. His Majesty's unfortunate condition had now
lasted upwards of fifteen months, and since last July.
it appears, from the evidence of the Physicians,
that the Restrictions imposed on the Prince Regent
were altogether unnecessary. The Right Honour-
able Gentleman had allowed, when he enforced the
Restrictions, that they were, pro tanto, an infringe-
ment on the Executive Power; but that they were
rendered necessary, in order that no impediment might
be thrown in the way of his Majesty's recovery, and
that he would only name one year, in order that Par-
liament might, at the end of that period, be enabled as
soon as possible to remove them. But the Physicians
had told them that no hopes of that recovery bad ex-

iStell since last July ; and yet the Right Hon. Gen
• tleroan had thought proper to put off the assembling
of parliament for 18 days longer than the period at
which it became necessary. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman ought to answer to the country why he made
that unconstitutional Bill last one day longer than it
nas necessary. With respect to the appointments
on his Majesty, was it a fact that any of the Lords
of the Bed-chamber, or any of the Equerries, ever
attended regularly, when there was a probability of
his Majesty's recovery ? And now that such reco-
very was highly improbable, why was their attend-
lace necessary ? It was incumbent on the Right
lion. Gentleman to shew the necessity of. this uew
Court that he was setting up. He certainly did not
wish to insinuate any thing unpleasant to her Majes-
ty, or to wound her feelings unnecessarily in any
tjegree; but it was impossible for him not to perceive,
and perceiving, it was proper for him to state, that i
the additional expence was coupled with this Court ;
because all that part of it which related to Lords of
the Bed-chamber, was not necessary.
..lie wished to
• know whether all this additional state was to be ani
abridgment of so much of what it had been usual for
the Kings of this country to receive eat their pa rticilar
appointments to the Executive Power?—With respect
to the 10,0001. additional to her Majesty, he.would
not say a word about it. But taking all the sums into
account, it wooldepliettrahat upwards of 200,0001.
was to be pieced-at the disposal of the Queen,. for,
the purpose of taking care of his Majesty. Geittle-
won should recollect that her Majesty the Queen has
splendid personages about her person, and why then
might not the same persons serve both their Majes-
ties ? Mr. Tierney went on to observe, that by the
plan of the Right lion. Gent. the Civil List would
be reduced 100,0001. per annum, and is supply this
deduction in part, the Prince RegTnt was to be call-
ed on to transfer 50,0(Xe. of his annual income,
which upon the cessation of the Income Tax, which
be had hitherto in common with the rest of his Majes-
ty's subjects paid, would amount to 120,0001. Se-
venty thousand pounds would thus remain Whim in
his character of Prince of Wales. He knew not pre-
cisely upon what ground any distinction should be
made between the causes of expenditure in the dif-
ferent cases of his Majesty and his Royal Highness;
except, perhaps, the increase on account of the
Princesses. The Right Hon. Gent. had informed the
House, that In the year 1801, 180,0001. had been
voted in addition to the Civil List, but that it had been
discovered in the following year, that the• whole still
tell short in the sum of 121,0001. and the Right lion.
Gent. had pretty plainly intimated that a similar excess
might reasonably be expected to take place even after
any subsequent addition which might he made—
[Wear, hear!]—Vas this a satisfactory declaration to
the House, or a sufficient inducement to justify them
in pledging themselves to any vote before the precise
nature of the demands, and the causes of each parti-
cular excess, were distinctly before them ?-iflear,
hear, hear!]—lle wished to abstain from giving a
direct opposition to any part of the Right Hon,
Gentleman's plan, bet he tottfmed himself anxious
' to consider it in detail, and he could not help think-
ing that this was a subject that could not be too
clearly or perspicuously arranged, and understood,
previous to the Prince Regent's fall assumption of I
all the functihns of royalty. All, however, that the
Right Honourable Gentleman had condescended to
say by way of elucidating this matter, was to inform ,
Them, that if the conjoint amount of the Dreits of .
Admiralty and of the Scotch Civil List should be i
sufficient to meet the recurring excess on the Civil
List expenditure, Parliament would never hear of
those excesses. But really the Right lion. Gentle
man had so Many turns about him, there were so
many reservations in his statements, and so much
ambiguity in his language, that he carried the appear-
ante to his mind to be always aiming to lead the !
House into a snare, and keep them wide of the real
mark. Ile should, however, wait till the subject came
Moreparticularly before the House, and in the mean'
-time, as he did not mean to press a division he begged
leaveao ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether hei
You'd consent to defer his Resolutions till to-morrow? I
-.hie:SHERIDAN said, that he was induced to say
a feu, words to the House in consequence of some- I
.thing which had fallen from the Right lion. Gentle-
man (Mr. Pecceval), in answer to a question put by I
his Right Hon. Friend (Sir. Ponsonhy). His Right
lien. Friend had inquired, whether it was the inten.
lion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring fore'
ward any measure bearing reference to the arrears due
to the Prince of Wales, arising oat of the revenues
of tkeThichy of Cornwall ? [Mr. Perceval being en=
gaged in conversation, Mr. Sheridan said, he hoped
the Right Hon. Gentleman was searching for more ac-
. curate information than he had just appeared to pos-
sess.] The answer of that Right Hon. Gentleman
had, indeed, surprised him. It stated that he had not
referred to these arrears, and that he did not propose
to bring forward any mention of a claim, the justice
01 ahuch he was known to have always controverted.
In this opinion, he believed, the Right" Honourable
Gentleman was rather singular. In the year 1802,
the general sense of the House was understood to
he decisively in favour of the validity and legality
of the Prince's claims. In 1803, a Message was
received from his Majesty recommending the
stale of his Royal Highness's affairs to the consi-
deration of the House. From what passed on
this occasion, the Right Honourable Gentleman says
he conceived that the claims of the Prince were dually
relinquished. He (Mr. Sheridan) had reason to be-
lieve that an impression to this effect was pretty pre-
valent nut of doors. He had himself met with it
in various quarters. lie was on this account the
more desirous that the true circumstances of the case
should be made known. The Right 'Honourable
Gentleman, he strongly apprehended had derived
Eris belief, with respect to the Prince's nett-assertion
of his claims at the latter period. (1803), from the
loose reports of the debates in that House, contained
in the Annual Register, instead of consulting that
register of original documents, the Joureals on the
table.. In that publication it was stated that his
Royal Highness had made a surrender of his claims,
in contradiction to which he would quote the Mee-,
sage from the Prince, which Message had beenddlia
vered to the House by Mr. Tyrrwhitt, and siaitottee
Isequently recorded on their Journals. •No renuncia..
• lion, he again asserted, had ever been made on the
part of his Royal Highness, becausesuch renunciation.
must have been atteuded with very great injustice—in-