The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-02-02 00:00:00

consolatory to tn. _ ,learn, the- . year, .. elk
.the accounts could In. made tip, which they only ceeit
be in the great ports of the kingdom—that the aceillallt
from London, Liverpool, and Hull, in 1.6/1,.
half year ending at the same period in la%
a sum on commercial exports than three aria a half toll
lions.-- (Hear, hear.).—'t was the olieering statement
he had to wake of the actual improvements and pros-
pects of the fitianee of the country.--(Hear, hear.)
Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended warmly for a re-
duction of the expenses in collecting the revenne in Ire.
land, which he represented to be eecesai(re in the es.
tram, and beyond all measure borthensome. He keel*
with much mistrest at the statement oldie Right Rm.:
the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the great lacrosse et
customs on the exports. lle had often saes an appear-
ance of this kind suceeeded by ruinous conregnenoesi
the exports having been-wet where there were no OW-,
Lets, only to the hiss of the itsperter. ..
Mr. P:iiRENFRIA, was not satisfied with the Baer-
&UM% of the Right Hon. tientleurin that there wottW be'
no new loans or taxes this year. He wished to snow eis-I'
tinctly if there wonlil be any addition to the public riobt.--:
if there would be any fonili ng in addition to whiff hay at-.
Wed ? He also expressed himself hOstila totith nominal..
and delusive machinery by which the Sinking Feted Was'
managed, and by which it won made to appear at ems-
teen millions, when in fact it was not niece has twe.--'
The Right lion. iientleenan would he obliged to haittep-
oennt
course to that farce of an At t to enable the e
era tot the liquidation of the National Debt to'
from themselves the twelve milhioni of deficiency. e V
l
system of borrowing from the Rank to pay thediti-
dends, was d4repittahle to telovertnnont. It wesild be
infinitely better to provide for this at once by a kg
specifically fur that purpose, or by the issue of bathe.
quer Bills, than to go on borrowing, though eveu et the
low interest of three per cent. The deficiency in the
Consolidated Pond was greater than in former qnartets,
and this led him to think there woe no reason for etwou-
ragieg the hopes held oot by the Right Hon. Creetleman
that it would soon correct itself. •

The CHANtJ of the EXCHEQUER again
expressed his desire rather to wait fiir regular opporta-
allies to discuss these important subjects, than to mustisr
upon a premature and imperfect exposition of them In
tie shape of answerin:: qiiestioni. He would, liosirdifer,
reply shortly to one or two points. With respect Ho the
Increase of expense in the collection of the Irish re-
venue to which the lion. Baronet had alluded, it was
apparent and nut real. It arose simply from the prac-
tice of bringing the whole forward as a charge on tbr
public, instead of, as heretofore, laying is on the fees of
merchants. Now, to the principal question put to him
by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Urenfell), he had
distinctly to state, that the paddle debt would not be ire
creased by any means or in any way whatever this year.
(Hear.)-110 stock whatever would be created, and what
was outstanding at present, he affirmed, was no more
than was consistent with the public ronvenirnry and
service. be subject of the .;inking Fund hail bees
often discussed; and he contained to be of the saute
opinion he had ever been upon it. He held thst it wale
far wiser to persevere in the present system which was
well and practically understood, than to unsettle, ender
the name of simplifications, the whole method with
which public aermantants were conversant As to rte
deficiency in the Consolidated rand, he still estettnio-
ed the hope he hail expressed, that it whew be got over
by the progress of the revenue.
The utution was put, and earned to.
Mr. MABERLY next more; for eft Arennnt of the
Charge on the Sinking Fyn;, Irons the :itli July, MI,
distinguishing each quarter. In introducing this, he
replied to several of the arguments in the preeediwg dis-
cussion, and contended that there was every pros-
pect of the fund being worse next year than the present.
Mr. BARINO could not imagine any coed ground
for perserting in the present system of the Sinking Fund.
in substance It hail been abandoned for years, and yet
the Right Iles. I lvaitlentan persisted in adhering to all
the forms. These, in his opinion, served (stiletto rentier
the accounts unintelligible, and they ought therefore to
be given up at once. and the real state of the country in
regard to its revenue and finance be allowed I. appear.
He rejoiced to hear of the improvements in commerce,
though he was at a loss to conceive how they had oc-
curred is the midst of all the didn't" in which the
country confessedly was, and particularly while the dis-
tresses of agriculture were so severely felt.
The CHANLELIA)II of the EXCHEQUER, in an-
swer to one question relative to the increase of the re-
venue, begged to say that it was greater the last half year
than he had ever retnembered it ; and on this; it was
that he founded his hopes of progressive improvement.
As to the simplification ado" national lICCOUSK lee pre-
ferred going on in the way which use and experience
had rendered clear and applicable to the general service.
Mr. PHILLIPS considered this to be a very extra-
ordinary proposition. He, for one, never could no-
denten(' the present ',plateau of accounts, awl be
knew no one who could.

The CHANCELLOR of the EM' Egl 'ER replied
that he was sure a great many Gentlemen understood
the accounts as they were now framed. His argu-
ment was in favour of old eoablished forms in prefer.
eine to theoretical innovation, which it was demonstra-
ble mast be attended by many inconveniences.

Mr. BARING said; all tae "uld forum'. were in-
vented try the Right Honorable (leaflet:ma himself,.
and had ►een introduced y him ►rithiu the last two
or three years.

The question was pot and agreed to.
Mr. MABEItLY then move) for accounts of the
sums applicable to the redemption of the Fended
Debt of the linked Kingdom, on the sth January,
1821, separating Ireland from England ; as also for
accounts of the total unredeemed Unfunded Debt—
the charge on account of managemet.t of the fund ap-
plicable to the redemption of the National Debt—the
charge of collecting the revenue fur the United King-
dotu-41te amount of the rhsrtres on the consolidated
Fund—the emu ant of the Duties on Windows, and other
papers.—Ordered.
Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD moved that there
should be laid before the Goose a ropy of an Order of
the Beard of Excise, dated the 2.1.‘1 July last on the
subject of Irish Spirits.—Ordered.

ski 1
NM

led an Hon. Weather se accuse
he principles, of British juris-
maintoin that he had a right to
case of tise,Queeee, Gem the
en given in the Hoene of Lords.
If the *ticket* aside. that which

-.....r0ar life. Hareem alma wastes&
satisfy Mnp that the Qneea was guilty. This
opinion be could not alter, and he did not think he
owed itvonsistently, when he thought that it woulort
wot he safe for the public that so large a sum as that'
proposed by the Noble Lord should be placed at the'
disposal of her Majesty. He should not discharge hill
duty if lie were not to propose as an amendment. event
*one he shorld not find tea Members in the Hoof*
Ilivourable to his motion, that the word* " thirty
thousand," should be substituted for" fifty thoosand"
•io the Report.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, the Meese would sop that he
coolill sot rise for the perposa of ("polio, the motifs*
of the Hon. Gentleman t whether the those ehemii
to- insert 30,0001. 20,f1110f. or MAW .must he pa
himself and Isis Honorable and Lama Colleague
a molirr of perfect indlibrencte. Tbelliehle refused the
lhoftey epti rely. she resolved to tahe old therefore
nittlieret sem Om Noma might think rapt to mom was
to herb M4inty sod km (.egad Adak's. nand al per-
fect Irelilftmese. The How. Geodesists haviarasposasail
for the heat intwwlthis he had bees betrayed, he
regret for was the last on. to say that ii ought
'to be remembered for one osstaeot. list he mast put it
to the Hon. dent. whether it was littirsg, that he should
lake up night after night (and be was sot the only one
who Nad isste so) detached portions of the case, the
whole of which had been laid before the other House.
His was now obliged to say, that if he hoard any snore
of this—that if member after number, cootinned to rise
'tn give an opinion on parts of the oce—an opinion
fronded on what they might have heard out of doors—
if this course con rued to be penned, it would
he impossible that the matter should rest there. The
Qeeen was guilty sr not guilty—she was acquitted or
not acquitted. If she had been acquitted, let her have
the benefit of an acquittal—if she were not acquitted, is
God's same, let those opposed to her Majesty come for-
ward again with charges against her, of they and the
public had not already had enough of such proceedings.
(Hear. hear.)
Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE said they had so
right to try the "motion of the guilt or innocence of
the Quen there, but he had a right to exprets his
opinen on the cox : and looking at the evidence, be
would lay his hand span Isis heart, and say he !mitred
her Majesty to be guilty.—(lfear. hear, bear). Nei,
ther the taunts of her advocates, nor the clamours of
the people out of doors, should deter him from eso
pressing this opinion. He should be sorry to go one
step beyond what might be regarded as moderation
but he could not help expressing hie sentiments me
this question, aDd there, as one of the representatives
*f the people of England. he would say, that whets
a grans Ekes that moved by the Nobk Lord was pros
posed, Ise had a right to support an amendment that
went to swlsstitute a smaller sum. He was disposed
to do this, because he could not approve of
the way in which alt, money placed is those hands
had been disposed of. He was borne out in say-
ing, that there was no answering be the way is which
money en disposed might be used. It was said that
the Beerier Pergami had lately been living in the
metropolis of France its a manner which would better
suit the rank of the highest Nobility. than a person
of his ignoble character. He wished to know, where
the fends came from that supported him in this style
of living ? was it from the House of Commons ? If
they were thus to dispose of the money of the people
of this country, if this were submitted to, he knew not
what character would be given to the British People.
Ile thotwht the character of the Country disgraced, and
when a vote was proposed which he thought furnished the
means of continuing that disgrace, he would oppose it
as far as he could by Isis vote, which should be given
for the smaller sum which had been named.

Mr. CURWEN, though :axiom for economy, could
not object to the larger grant which had beets preposes4
and though her Majesty, in some of her answers, had
been betrayed into the use of expressions which he
could not approve, yet he considered these ought not to
be imputed to her Majesty, but to lame of her advisers.
He wished to see the Queen restored to the Liturgy, and
'to all her rights, that the country might no !eager be
agitated with these discussions.
Mr. WENTERN complained of the manner in which
the ease of the. Queen had been broaght forward plow,
meal, as contrary to every principle of law and justice.
Sir T. LE'rHBIUDOE explained.
Mr. M. YITZGEKALII commented on the inconsis-
tency of the conrse pursued by Ministers in giving' a
single grant te. the Queen, while they avowed that they
had a moral conviction of her guilt. He thought Mi 7
nisters ought to rise and justify their conduct.
Mr. 11..4t,11NEK in esplanatiots said, he wished to
curtail the allowance to her Majesty ; as he doubted. in
'consequence of the seditious tendency of her answers to
the addresses, and is consequence of the message brestghi
down from the Qisren yesterday, be could not think it
safe to place so large a sous as it was proposed to give
in her hands.
Mr. SYKES thought when the office of moderator
became recant, the Hon. Oentleinon would do well to
become a earolistate Mr It. He rem for the purpose of
discharging a duty which be felt that he owed to him-
self and to his l'onstituente, by explaining the reasons
which would govern his vote on the present occasion.
He peoceedod to argue, that the objectionable repres-
sions whisk had fallen from her Majesty did net deserve
the construction which-had been pet upon them. It
ought rather to be supposed that the 3 had escaped with-
out dee consideration. He regretted the exclusion of
her Majesty's name from the Liturgy, and was of
qiil/1011 that its restoration, which her Majesty had a
gist to dentirnd, t ultimately take place.
.Mr. Alderman WOOD said, as the Hon. Oeutleman
'apples seemed to wish lsine to bring down some ac-
eoest of the rummer in which hew Majesty paid her
bills, he iserced now to ask that Hon. Oentieman, if
he (Mr. H. Sumner) had any unsatisfied claims in his
plebe? 11.• would sit down foe a moment to give
Mm lime to answer. As the Hon. Member did not
appeal disposed to answer, be should proceed. He'
had celled on the Hen. Member as he had done, be-
isanse ninth had been said on this subject halt night.
They bad heard too of the large sums spent by an
tadbrliaal (who had beau called an ignoble character)
tato**. and these were in some way connected with
lbw autantata which had been mentioned. He would
dloHAsp the • Hios. and Learned tientleuiasa to
tlhew AM awe shilling had been trays:mined to
that tkolividaal. Hs also challenged him to
p: the. style !w which that individual
*it Mb twos emit as bad ken described. This he
were
precorte whence
he h
fact,
thee *algried
hhee
ig Mash sappartad such splendoer: lie hall
Mb, that the peomo to whoa he alluded was

wffilimillassalliallisiMaiiaSaiiiiiialifiss desire of her Majesty's lent
y
mss:
the express at Paris b
risers, to be ready in cafe. he should he wanted as
ness in this country.—(liear, hear.)—hide spoke is of her Majesty's Counsel, who could set hi;
right it he had stated any thing incorrectly. Had kW
her Majesty in the House of Commons; they mightinhi ha;
ter. dared or had they chosen to bring charges I
had the pleasure of seeing the gefillethen Idled* is
(Pergami) in the conntry. He Aid not complain ant
way in which the Noble Lord had hrunght the peewit
slttirnotrienqntsrwtioinftrbt":oh, esibto"islanrotwo Itokopeesiwttichhirnhae 7"3:4-
joist 'Hiked. He believed the Noble Lord had read trim
a book, certain answers said to hare been given by hir
Majesty to Addresses presented to her. loons of the%
she was made folksy. " 1
trust the period will 'rein
%Olen I may promote the happiness of my sithjeeti,e_
This was read as the Queen's answer to the Address if
the people at Dover. New he would ask the
Lord if be bad err seen it in writing, and if be mil
answer for its being in reality the answer of her Niko?.
—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He would call (le
Noble Lord, or any one else to say, that was resift the
answer of her !Majesty. In answer to the Addriasikuo.
hoed Mayor and rporation of Canterbury, the tpirtl
was wadi- to say, " I am happy to receive the con his.
letioni of the good people of OetUerisurr. It will
afford me pismire to maim my people hair:,
wished to know how it could he peered that .se wen
the answers given by her Majeaty. He denied deaf;
were her's, and woold forfeit hisa life if she were
to jidve given theta. The a tvwers given to there
olDorer and Canterhury were merely a few rotes—
were verbal. It was true, that at Canterbury something
like the expressions given in the published Ammer hail
Been need. Her Majesty bad said, " It woold afford gnat
'deserve to ate to make all the people lieppy."—(Hre)
_Hat the Dover answer be denied any thing like aeltee
resemblance to that which had been given. He code
appeal to all in the roofs for the carol-teem of this as
settles's. The fact was so oritten answer was giveau
all, for the Queen bad not then been used to give masters
to atWresses under such cireutostam:es. Ile, Lewertr,
denied that she bad replied in the terms describe., sett
he challenged the Noble Lor 1, and the whole country,
to find any such words in the funs handfed Meta
which had heenxitrea by her Majesty.
Lord cAsTLEREAuH rose, bat gave way et pet.
ceiving Lord Lowensa nn his legs.
Lord L)WTHEIt rose to say a fe-.v words, which
weed to corroborate one of the statements mode by tbe
tine. Member fur Somerset: la re (Sir I'. betloltridge).-,
He had been at Paris, and while there, the person point-
ed oat to him as Perffiliii, was distingnislica by an equi.
page, and a style of tying fully as splendid as any thee
to be found in Paris. He lived in the most 1 u'dic war,
his eervants were about every where, and nob) thee
heed in greater style. Whete he got the whirl
supported him in this mode of livinz, and whether le
pat for what be had, were circumstances of which he
hem nothing. He wade no comment in the way is
which her Majesty might be expected to dispose of the
grantproposed to be made. When it was once voted;
he emsceived that she bad a right io do with the money
what she pleased.
IJr. liItOI:GMAM said, it was entirely by his di.
?cellos &in concert el* his Colleague and the rest of bet
Majesty's Ceposel, that P-trawl had been brought be
Paris to reside. It was at his snggestion that he stet
fetched trona itall,teliere he was residing on his owe
farm, in case the Bill should be brought from the
Lords to that House, and in case her Majesty's ILogai
Advisers should think it nrsessary to call hint as a ,
witness. This he asserted he knew of his own Lamm
ledge. In consequence of disettions which be (h.
Brougham) had given, that iodic/ideal (Pergaiei) was
brotrght to Paris, and if while there he spew a coed
*Wettable ems, he way not the only witness fur the
Bill or against it who bad lived at a considerable eye
pease.

-
Lord CASTLEItEAO/1, io referring to the question
lof the Worthy Alderman (Mr. Wood) said, that sties
, the Worthy Alderman challenged him to produce the
written copies of her Majesty's Answer, the. Worthy
Alderman should have recollected that Le (Lord l'.)
/ was not in the service or confidence of her Majesty, and
that therefore Ire ryas holding out a challenge whirls it
was impossible that he should he able to areept.—
:'(A laugh.)—He was, however, really sure, and quire
willing to allow, that this part of the publication to
which he refers 41 was more laughable than serious, and
that the rhodomontade of talking of her Majesty's sat►
jects was merely despicable when compared with the
more dangerous parts. The Honourable Alderman me
denied the authenticity of those Addresses ; bat 11*
Worthy Alderamo would hare bees better occupied is
correcting the press, than iu calling on bias at the time
to produce copies of them—(hear and laugh).—They
were reguhrly published in form in the paper, whick
from its correctness in giving these articles, had be.
called her Majesty's Gazette. lf, however, they were ast
correct, be could read other instances. Ito aid so ass
favour to the Worthy A Idertuan, because be might ow
rest t hepress also in these instances in the republicatio,
which he unahmatood was to take place of these sped-
teens of political, moral, mill religions doctrine.—(ifsw,
and laughter.)—ln the answer to an Address from
Wandsworth, delivered by a Deputation on the 13th si
October, her Majesty said, " Never was a Queen mot
easy of access to her people than I bare been." in
other parts of the same answer she assitnilated herself
to a Sovereign. He thought, however, these MOAK
and contemptible objections to the Address, compared
with the political and general moral ramming in these
answers, than which no code could be land within the
11.800 compass, more fatal to the lariat harmers ono
eountry.—(llear.)
Mr. GIPPS contended, that on that side of the Woo .4
Members had u good a right to express link tereiriaa"
jof tho guilt of the. Queen as they bad on the who*
speak of the prosecution as having loco carried es by
bribery and cemented by rerjary. The worthy Airier
man vindicoted the 'Queen s answers in such a nowt
as to lead to the belief that doing so he was defending
his own bantling. He referred to a record of a toted
thanks from that House, thanking Queen Anne fur Go
daring the Electron Sophia (the next in sot-cession) *
be prayed for. This proved that it was opdoaai with
the Sovereign to regulate the statues in the Liturgy. as
had it net been so there would have been no tissubing
the Queen for what she had done.
Mr. DENMAN canted the attention of House to flit
treatment which the Queen had experienced front the
Wovernment from the momeut of het landing, do"
to the present tiros. He considered it to develope a
system of permeation which (es had been said by ti-
Member for Vork), was unparalleled is the history of
the world. That the Houma Lords had come to a rep
against the Queen he admitted, hot that they hat coo
Tided her he denied. k would be rock frost tookirets
the cline of the proceedings, that no coosicrion hail takes
place, and the hold had bean given up, because Minister,
knew that it-could not he brought to bear in the Hoare
of Commons. He ettatanied that thoQneen bad a rigla
to the tall benefit of an arterittal, wistever the rooting
might be which ceased the Bill to be abandoned. lied it
come down to that Haute, be wished to hare asked if tic,'
who were now as ready to promovnte on her Maittaqs
guilt fro.:l whet they bad beard elsewhere, cooklitale
pretended to call themselves unbiassed
The Members of that House had a right ot forte as
Mon on the cast. bet them form that opinion on me

•
•
THE STATESMAN
to look Wits improvement erery year, sine* the mew advaositsk wi,ifft4ad led
mseration of compound interest usilat ?replace that effect. hi& trf fgoorance of the
He hoped that even the present year %yenta Pai 01 prudence. Hee/mild !pi
much of the debt as the rear lt9t, to *Lich fe4n
an opinion IDS the
Mover bad alluded. He should refer but to .00le other
evidence whigh bad been
circumstance. It appeared from the accounts en the
th
table, that during the early part of last year there hallPatthig all the rest •1*
been a failnre is the, revenue of Castoffs: it woul.l be . held been obtotood from I
consolatory to thellouse to learn, that this year, so farms! cient to satisfy hips that