The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-03-29 00:00:00

' i.

these enactments.
Lord CASTLEREAtiII said, nothing should in-
itiate him to _ire his consent to any thing which he
thought tvoillil degrade the 'Catholic Clergy in their
own eyes, or those df their Otis 13. • But thinking that
these enArtments mould not bi's • ronsidered, ;sod as
he canteiveil them uecessary to the common settlement
betn semi l'rote,tants and Catholics, he should give
them strersitoot: sopport.• The Clauses to which the
!Honourable Member objected were not, in fact, to be
regarded as penal Iowa& the Catholic Cler;y, but is
mcas!irs s of itsdnlgessce and advantage fur that body ;
for this wass..it shoot& be-recollected, the first time
that .11 was proposed to legalize any intercourse be-
-tweets- the Catholic Clergy of this country and the
Bge.of Rome; that intercourse having peen prohibited
by acts of. legislating on the part of our aucestors. It
ts add not, perhaps, be fair to find fault with our an-
cestors for such acts, as they, No doubt, did the best
for the reentry that their judgment suggisted, amidst
all the dangers wills which • they were surrounded.
1
But the Catholic Clergy were liable by the statues
alluded to to certain penalties for holding any inter-
coarse with Rome, and the object of the proviaion
adverted to by the Honourable Member was, at once to
remove those penalties, and to regulate that. inter-
course. '1 his provision then was actually a measure
of concession to the Catlstsliy' Clergy. It was to con-
sidered, he Lad no doubt, isrossug the highest and moat
important persons connected with that respectable
body. •1* he P... 5. Gent. his 4 not, indeed, quoted ally
' authority whit h should impede the judgment of the
House, and certainly there bad appeared no autho-
rity before the public, which appeared to deserve
any nsatetial attention. He had seen, indeed, a etrange
perversion of judgment and versatility of mind on the
part of Dr. Milner, whoseaathoritynt other tiuses taight
easily be gaoled against himself. Mr. Hayes hail also
stood fords on the side which Dr. Milner now took;
and so had a geutleman of souse distinction at the liar
in Ireland ; but that gentleman (Mr. O'Connel) had
not. by :ow t soy, so employed Isis talents and iathsence,
to proumu:e the totritiosey or•roissolidate the peace of his
country, as to entitle his jtelgusent to touch rousidera-
I (ion. lie thought, indeed,• that such authorities as Ise
hail übt atii.urri should weiAls ssitla the House rather for
I than against time measure whirls they stood. forward to
depict:ale. 'I he lion. Gentleman, however, would have
-tin, Bios., sti•;pessil its functions until it souls' receive an
authority Irons a certain meeting of Catholic Bishops in
It e'a tid, o !lids was to prenelsece upon the merits of the
e .csitimse, proposed. But wombat nous... holding a supe-
r.or rrill: in the Constitutiln, disposed to yield its judg-
ment to tie decision of any meeting of Catholic Bishops?
Would the House coo-emit to have its benevolessce amid
mtistloso arrested until a merlin %of Catholic Bishops
should please to .dettriiiine upon the merits of a great
measure submitted to it, cousideration ? Would Pas lia-i
meet agree to pestle's,. its *dons, in order to wait
for instructions from an iastical l'arli .ausent in
Ireland.—(Hearrisear, hear.) But upon what groond
should time Ileumse-tesitate to decide upon a regulation ,
precisely the same as that which, with the sanction of I
time highest authority in the einuch, at present existed !
between Rome and every other Catholic State ? This I
country Was, indeed, the only one in Europe, either'
Protestant or Catholic. ist whirls such a regulatiou of 1
intercourse between the Catbolietlergy and the Roman I
Pontiff, did not prevail.. fie must say, then, that if I
any part of the Catholic Clergy of Ireland could be se
infatuated ds to helm fire • iritis the accomplishment of
this great measure, for the good of their country,
apinat the general practice of their Church and the :
(Bedsit pretept.of their chief. Parliament should not
allow its doision3 to he swayed by such interference ;1
'
tut yet- he would' not be unties stood to mean that Par..
linliament should ietedere with, the conscientious scruples
of any wan. The whimsical or national scruples of
capricious individuals were not, however, to bias its
, judgenseat ; for that was. a rase to which the maxim of
the law might well apply. de minisele sense estride les
It was in this Bill preposedits relieve the Catholic
Clergy from the penalties attaching to them for any
intercourse• with the See of Kum*, by legalising that
ittlYtt'unrm's ;led aU that ems-required of them in return
was to take ha oath. that they would not use curls inter-
course iii any way iujuriont to the State: He was at a
-less to divine upon whit ground any oljection could be
made to that oath, especially alter the welt known Bull
insw of the Reroestiff,' upon the propositions in the Bull
-et I/03; iii-illicis HMI, not only sn,eath of this nature
'was sanctioned, but the grant of a veto to the Crown,
9ott the appointment of any Bishop or Dean, and the
'right of revision as to stay runimotilgation between his
r holiness and the Catholic Clergy- As theise regulations,
however, existed nniversally silth the sanction of the
Pepe, •to Ilse 0 any ItionawCatbolic.elergymen coming
4orward with a declaration of scruples, was really an
insult to the understanding of the Honer. The ar-
rangement now proposed had been very long before
the country. It was, indeed, pretty much the same
'as that proposed in 413, anal yet no anthorised ob-
jection to it ii as made to that House on the part of
any important body of the. C.atholic Clergy. and this
fact justified- an opinion that the measure was not
ungraciously regarded by that creep, Yet if the
'Honourable. ilember for Cork had any modification to
..anggest in the details of the Bill which might serve to
satisfy any honest scruples', time House would. he was
'persuaded, gi re the snggestion :every degree of anew
don, as honest scruples must always be deserving the
regard of Parliament. Even after the measures in pro-
yeas should be passed into law, they should be found in
any part'to operate against conscientious and radioed
4siiiples, Parliament would no doubt feel it a duty to
Wept an Amendment.—(Hear, bear, beat.)—But qt 0..
carding to his new, it was impossible for the Catholic
Clergy to feel any conscientious scruples agalut tit(

•

• • ,i

••• f'.i,*•% •

-~ '

••••-• . Ala'

measure ; and he spoke witic'sosie.
subject, from the knowledge whisk
to the nature and character of the
Catholic religion, He spoke upon this point from tbb
highest authority. lie felt, indeed, that he was legis-
lating on this subject with the Pope at his back.—(A
load laugh,)-11t must be borne in mind, by all the
friends of the Catholic cause especially, that the mea-
sures objected to by the Honourable Member were
brought forward in order to reconcile a Protestant Par-
liament to the grant of the Concessions which were
claimed for the Catholics, and that, if those measures
of security for the PrOtestrint Establishment were not
connected or embodied, as was intended, with the Bill
of Concession, that Bill was likely to be lost; therefore,
be hoped the Honourable lientleman would sot,. by
pressing his objections, risk the production of an effect
which he was Otte sure the Honourable Gentlenuin by
ae means intended.. That some of the Catholic Clergy
of Ireland alight entertain scruples as to some of ills
provisions of this Bill be was quite ready to whnit ; but
when, he would ask, was any great measure ever pro-
posed, for promoting the interests of that country, or
for allaying the tainults with which unhappily it hail
been so often distracted, that such a measure was not el,
jected to, especially if it possessed the qualities necessary
effectually to work out the. object in view. •With re-
spect to the proposed stipend for 'lie mainteuance of
Ilse Catholic Clergy of Ireland, he recollected. that
when lie brought forward a kindred measure, tor an
allowance to the Presbyterian Clergy of that country.
about 25 years ago, he found that although he pro-
ceeded upon the Authority of some of the most dis-
tinguished members of that body, the great mass of
the clergy was against the proposition. But vet that
propositiun was adopted, and after long experience
not oue Presbyterian Clergyman was found, as lie
understood, to express ally ohjectiou to the measure.
Ile auticipated the same result from an allowance to
the Catholic Clergy. But he couidently expected.
with regard to the Bill under consideration, that what-
ever objections might now he made to the provisions
or that Bill, that particularly as they were sanctioned
by the Chief Pontiff, the sound sense and gorel
principles of the Catholic Clergy would soon be found
to abandon such objection. Whatever alarms might,
,is the first instance, he excited in timid consciences
by the provisions of this nira inn., he was sure that
lits merits would etc long be iiiiiversally felt, and that
the sukrior understanding and honest views of the
Catholic Clergy would serve to dissipate every objec-
tion that might be made against it. That no part of
this great measure was ever intended to degrade the
character or disturb the conscience of the Catholic
Clergy, he could most truly allege. lint he should
regard himself as one of the basest of Ministers and
of men, if he could have given his sanction to amy
measure calculated for such unworthy purposes.—
(Hear. hear.)
Ik. PHI LLI MORE spoke in favour of the proposed
securienfs for the Protestant Establishment, because
among other reasons, he thouzlit that the faith of the
House was pledged to enact those securieties in can•
junction with the Bill of Concession ; therefore, if the
one wets rejected, he should. however friendly to its
principle: feel himself bound to vote against the latter.
Mr. PEEL (who stood behind Lord Castiereaoi)
expressed a hope, that when the Noble Lord said he
was legislating with the Pope at his back, he did
not mean to refer to the Gentlemen immediately be.
hied bius—(cs laugh),—for lie was satisfied that none
of these Gentleman had murk confidence or count., -
lion with his Holiness. But he roes to advert to
what was called the irritation and unpopularity ex-
cited among the Catholics, in consequence of the
proposed securities or restrictions, as some described
them; and he begged it to be understood, that no
NC, of that irritation or unpopularity eotilel he
ascribed to him or to those Gentlemen who hail sued
with him upon this subject, as they had nothing to do
in proposing Or (raining such provisions. Those
provision., indeed, originated solely with the &deo-
, tales for corwession to the Catholic Claims. neither
himself tour his Friends having expressed any desire
whatever for such enactments. although that seemed
to have been insinuated ; at the sane time, lie
thought it right to say, that the party with whom
I he had the honour to *et, was not at all disposed I
to make cowmen cause with such objectifies as had
been urged this night against the provisions alluded
to, or to ob.truet the measure under consideration,
, by contribeting to excite airy irritation or imp.
linearity against it, spun such grounds as hid been
stated.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD declared, that lie could not
concur with his Honourable Friend the Metbiser
fur
Cork in any attempt to deprecate the character of this
measure; fur it was, in his opinion, of ae utmost ,on-
sequence. anti not espaliered to the nacre questioti whether
a Catholic Nobleman should sit in the other House of
Parliament, or his sou in that. Bet while he Arkviow-
hedged the great value of this measure to the Catholic
Laity, he could not forbear from deprecating the re-,
strietion which It meant to impose upon the Catholic
cgs-, whp der. in fast, 4ip derive no benefit 'from its
'Mitt:Dent. Upon this gross,' be disapproved of the
oath which it was proposed to call upon the. Who-.
lie clergy to take, as well as of the nature of the
commission to be appointed for facilitating comniunica-
don between the Pope and the Catholic clergy, as well
as of the greet of a veto to the Crown upon the ap-
pointment of- Catholic Bishops and Deans ; fur he
thought the ovation of such powers derogatory tip the
character of the Catholic clergy of Ireland,. who wee,
always among the most forward to promote the meals,
to preserve the peace, to enforce the laws in that country.
Why then throw out such an offensive and uujamt sus—
picion upon their loyalty and good disposition at the
present moment? But the establishment of a cotastia:
sion of revision. with the veto would, he was persuaded,
be a Meet mischievous measure ; for the Catholics, amid
sever be reconciled to the grant of such powers tst .a
Hiseernment essentially hostile to their religion. The
Catholic peopWwoilld always apprehend the abuse of
smelt audseritt, and It was much to be feared that its ex...,
erase would *serve to withdraw the laity from that re-
venue which et present they were known to fed
weeds their teeny sn such a ressiarkable degree. These
were not, he lir-Owed. the suggestions of any Cathy
Bishops or lapses. bat the.tirm convictions of his Men
stied, from the moment that lie had been able to pot his
riot in possfasion of the merits of the ease. But still,
as few saesahees tweak to concur acids hi. is oeNti-
=.l: aimed not -deem it aged** Is Wive 'any al-
la lit Mll..
Ur, C. HINTOHINSON, in esphinatiam,,t/haelainsmi
Mf Inteagma.• to deprecate the . character ,of the pro-

. 77.1r4111112Npir
potted enneeosinns, as his Honourable Friend appears,'
to think, but upon the authority of an eminent
lie Bishop, he felt it is duty to communicate to the
Rouse the apprehension which existed that the Tomtit.
tiona to which he had alluded would *erre to interfere
with the acceptability of those coner‘sions.

Mr. CAM\ ISO felt himself called upon to &tier,:
that unless the securities proposed were secede.;
to, he could not reconcile it to his reuse of defy
to• vote for the enactment of the coin mum's. 11,,
Protestants, by agreeing to those concessions, iti,t ei.
rrificed much of interest, as well as of prejudice, sad
was the House to be told that the Catholics wonld not
in return factifice any thing? Rot it was clearly na.
derstnod from the outset of those measures, that hntit
should be adopted fur the purpose of satisfying the
Protestant's& well as the Catholic; and was it pa..
Bible to suppose that, after the measure of conees.:.,
had made such progress, it could he seriously kook
or desired to violate that uwlerstanding by opm,„4
the measure of securities ? If any man could meditate
such, be was sure that failure must be his fate. for wbo
could be found to sanctios any such attempt to deprive
the Protestant of that price which it was agreed
he shOnld he paid for confetti:: to the niunisl:efsparoftithcie.
Catholic. For his own part, he trusted the conduct
which be had uniformly pursued with regard to this
ptlhaec estil e t
dg" sorb an act of tress shorer
cher r. Ile had done enotr.:li, 1w hoped, bi pion tie
he was most sincerely desirons of rife, tie! the ex,".
.cipation of his eathrslie tellowsohjects trots au o,e,
restrictions ender which they laboured: hat & sw,
cessful attempt should he made to detach front the bill
tisOsi:clanses, which would have the effect of ereoseab
log the Protestant part of the community to en 'Lea-
sure, from that moment, with the same hearty

rity with which he had sacrificed every roosiderati.a
to do justice to the Catholics, lie w.iuld altogethertt-
ject the which, passed in that mutilated state,
would he a fraud upou the Peluestauts.—(lleas, hear.)
Sir t.. WU, said, that if he were soally disponi

to procure the rejertion of the measure, he' thouiht hr
could not more effectually protnote sold. an object
than by supporting the proposition of the Member/el
Cork. With regard to the nececessity of enforria(
the two main securities for the maintenance of Ike
Protestant iuto rests, he heggrol to read to the Moor
the rolls of a distinguished Statesman. "In grant.
ing an extension of the civil rights of the Roman Cs.
tholic holly, due provision ninst hr made for the in-
%•iolable maintenance of the religions tool civil esta-
hlislantents of the 17nited Kingdom. Mitch mast be
done for mutual conciliatiou, muck for comae*
satety. Many contending interests moat be recon-
ciled, many jcaloneies tomtit be allayed, enemy long.
cherished and mutually destructive prejudices mast be
eradicated." Such were the sentiments of a distin-
guished Member of the other House, which, in hi,
opinion, overbalanced all the arguments hr hal
heard against the Imre:110y of securities. He
-I,ired, loon-ever, that if the present Hill should pr.,
no mended in that House would be more auxins. du
himself to reo: ale all parties to the measure.
Mr. It. MARTIN (Oalway) said, that if there ow
one county in Ireland more likely than another to tr-
turn a Catlootit: Represeutative to that Howse, he lie•
lieved it was the °minty in which he had the bonner
to represent. That consideration, however, ocelot
not prevent him from supporting both the Wile, awl
whether he were likely to have a Catholic competitor
or
Mr. not, h
C. He should vote for going into th
obe Committee.
CUTCHINSON begged to serve, that he
had not stated that the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ire•
Lend were against the Bill, for he bad Not hitherto
ha I any r ;;;;; munication %title then/ on the subject.
Mr. SHAW (as we understood) said, he had not
heard of a single Catholic in the county which be had
the honour to represent, who ball not spoken of the
Bill in terms of the highest gratitude and natiefactioo.
Mr. HAKIM: thought it would be better to impese
the, oaths, not upon those who were now Catholic
Priests, out on those who might be hereafter ordained.
in' the Priests now in Holy Orders, some might be well
dispose'', and others might object to taking the oaths,
and it would be a verfinconyement and u.spleasaut opera.
lion to ~.11 then. together for the purpose of imposing
these oaths. This was an observation, however, which
was better soitell to the Conmeitter than to the present
mate of the House, ail he should therefore reserve
himself for that stage of the Bill.
Mr. S. RICH expressed his conviction that the feeling
of all the well disposed Catholic population of behind
was favourable to the Bill. The Hun. Member read t•
the House a letter from a Catholic of the highest deg-
rader and authority in that part of I relayed is which be
resided, in which the Catholics were stated Mite desalt-
tol to the Legislature for the kind concession which
were extended to them. Hr (Mr. R.) declared that he
should soprani the snore! Bill, not because he
bended danger from the Catholics, but because he ving:a
to remove the fears and apprehensions of the Pretest-
ants,.and. entirely concurred with the Right Homo.
able Member for Liverpool (Mr. Canning), that to reject
the securities world he a fraud upon the Protestant, aid
a violation of the pledge which bad been given to wile
lain them:
•M r. N. MOORE said; be had been engaged ill a
"1
eetennive aorreespondesee upon this subject ; and Ire
believed 'bat it was in a great measure owing to his
exertions that the Bill was this year brought before the
douse— (Hear. bear and a langh.)--From the
sip
swers which had been returned to his inqniriees wig
from all the infortdatioh which he had been abk
tr
collect, be could assure the Waite that a general
unanimity prevailed among the Catholics with respect
to this second Rill, though there might be some ardent
spirita still at work, who would neither be reconciled
to that norauy other INeaStSra.
Colonel BAOIVRIL said, he was convinced that
the measure would he gratefully received as a howl that
the Catholics of Ireland its general, and that it weak
prigesote the tranquillity and security of that celleltY•
The question was th.w pet and agreed to, and the
Speaker deaving left ihe Chair,
of the
dtireacaektri:i.itu.psaltoionoant'stiettilissolsecilisaabeialitiffeturterhsnirtmthetec.illtaita.tline'll: following el
persons in:tibahbrtroblieywnxigetohrtcreaaidniesers‘iixoliweftwahaaluierip:i
• stitbaltri.olniA
of-time
!Not: pop nnpearionwnnsolrnewha:,
sated
isob%
hereafter called wool to excretes any spiritual lane-
loh.ttni•"
H*•diVin.riindi)entLienenUaiat. :I';:e.'l,adteaptoelhat if,tr
Ottiote act
otaionigninef
ittly,e;tosada 7.f tiewen
coat* thieti•PrrissrestilluivasibdirtilaP:lailirreetthe

• •

I

I

.~~-~