The Statesman.
London, England, 1823-02-27 00:00:00

TIM STATES]

to July 1824, an Act of his late Majesty, for recovering
thepyment of Small Debts in Sco:land more expediti-
ously.—Leave was granted.
Mr. GOLTLIIU RN moved for leave. to bring In a Bin,
to amend the laws that regulated the collection of Church
Rates, and of the moneys paid to the Trustees of the
Board of First Fruits in Ireland. The object was to
reduce the rate of payment from six to four per cent.
in favour of the persons assessed, and not by way of r♦
lief to the Clergy.
Afters few words from Sir J. NEWPORT the motion
was agreed to.

SURREY COUNTY PETITION.
Mr. DENISON said he held in his hand a petition
which he wished to present to the House. It was moved
at a public meeting of th it county which he bad the ho-
nour of representing, by a Noble Friend of his (Lord
King) and it was seconded by a gentleman of that de-
scription, who might, with great propriety, be called
country gentlemen, who always resided on their estates.
The petition, which was carried with only six dissentient
voices, complained of the exptnses of Government in the
Civil List, in the Military and Colonial Departments, and
particularly in the collection of the revenue. It called
for retrenchment generally, and for a repeal of the tax
on Malt and Windows. This last he was glad to her
promised in the able statement of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, whom lie was sorry not then to see in hie
place. The Second part of the petition went to pray for
a reform of that house. There was one point whichk was
not touched on by the petition. It did not comment es
the alteration in the currency both In 1797 and 1814.
lie always maintained, and he was still of opidonah,d'
the standard ought to be raised higher than that atiptis
blished. The Hon. Member, after adverting to the Wee:.
ral clauses of the petition (which was given at length in
the STATESMAN of the 11th instant,) begged leave, in
order to remove a mistake, to restate the words be used at
the meeting. He had then stated that churchmen and
ndholders wire as much entitled to their income as any
Nobleman in the country to his rents. He contended.
that before either of those clauses was touched, every
useless and unnecessary expenditure should be loppedolf.
These were his sentiments, and the sentiments of the
county to which hebelonged. They wanted neither confie
cation nor robbery ; all they wanted was, that every
' thing should be conducted on a principle of equity and
of justice. Ile begged leave to bring up the petition of
the suffering freeholders of the county of Surrey.
On the motion that the petition be brought up, Captain
MARRILLY said he did not wish to promote any discus-
pion on them, but as he was one of that small minority
who opposed the petition at the meeting, be would take
leave to disclaim it.
The petition was then brought up, and, on the question
' that it do lie upon the table being put,
Mr. RICARDO rose, and said if his lion. Friend who
bat brought forward the petition had not declared the
',Wives by which he was actuated, the house would not
have given him credit for any other views than those of
perfitct justice, and he was also convinced that the boo.
gentleman who seconded its presentation was governed
by the same motives. He (Mr. Ricardo) however, con-
tended that they were a little vague in their charges on
the public creditor, when they asserted that he has re-
ceived an advantage from the alteration in the value of
the currency, to the injury of the nation at large. What
was the injury the public had received, or what was the
peculiar advantage which arose to the creditor of the
State in consequence of it? It was too common, in the
discussion of all general subjects, to uphold one's own
opinions, and attach merit to the supporters of them, and
at the sate time to censure and distort the arguments of
the opponents. At the sometime it was said we only want
equitable adjustment, thereby implying that an equitable
adjustment was refused them. He, for his part, would
contend that all he sought for was the same principle of
equity to all the fundholders, as well as the payers of
meet ; and, before beset down he would undertake to
prove that the stockholder was not receiving more than
he was entitled to. At the public meeting from which
the petition before them emanated, it seemed to he in-
ferred thst the whole debt of 800 millions was contract-
ed for during the time in which the currency was depre-
ciated ; bnt, when that came to be minutely examined,
it appeared that the actnal amount of debt incurred be-
fore the extreme depreciation of the currency, was 400
millions, and 100 millions more was contracted during
its depreciation to a small degree. Thus showing that if
the entire debt, 500 millions, was burrowed before the
depreciation of the currency took place, on which the in-
ference was founded.—(bear) than the interest on that
sum has been paid to the creditor in depreciated cur-
reney, for more than twenty years, to his serious loss, as
could be easily shown. Indeed, the calculation admitted
of the greatest nicety. Mr. Russett, who was a very
able accountant, and who calculated the interest upon al
the loans from year to year, showed very clearly tnat, in
the space of twenty years, which he hal just alluded to,
the public creditor received less than was his due to the
extent of 27 millions; and if they reckoned the interest
for the time on the principal of compound interest, the
loss would reach 12 or 13 millions more, making the
whole amount of loss sustained by the public creditor 40
millions from the depreciation of currency.—(Hear hear.)
What was the advantage, he would next inquire, given
to the public creditor by the depreciation? Why, Mr.
Russett proved that, for the remainder of the debt, 300
millions contracted during the greatest depreciation, that
a loss to the payer of taxes of two millions, or rather of
one million, nine hundred, and some odd thousand
pounds, aad a consequent benefit to the public creditor.—
(Hear, hear.) What, then, was the result of comparison ?
On the one hand, the public creditor lies lost, since 1797,
by Ids interest on 400 millions being paid in the reduced
eurrene:,, the sum of 40 millions—equal to a purchase
of two millions a year and on the other hand, he has
gained an advantage of too millions a year on the debt
incurred since 1797.—(Hear, hear.) On the one side,
the loss to the fundholder is seen; and, on thetrthei, the-
loss to the payer of taxes is made manifest; from whence
it may be seen that the latter has nut incurred the greater
injury.—(Hear, bear.) If, however, his lion. Friend be
right in the extent to which he said the depreciation of
the currency went, even so far as 50 per cent., it would
only prove that the loss to the old creditor was greater di
well as the profit to the new.—(llear, hear) He would
be glad to hear from his Hen. Friend (Mr. Denison), in
what respect his arguments were deficient ; but he repe}t-
ed that he did contend that the public creditor has de-
rived no exclusive advantage generally from the altera-
tion of the standar l.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. ft.) did
rot stand there to defend the depreciation of the currency,
but left that measure as he found it. His Hon. Friend, I,
in the course of his speech, regretted that, in 1819, the
higherstandard of the then valve of gold was not adopt-
ed. A Noble Friend of his below him (Lord Folkestone),
at that period pioposed that the standard should have
haven taken at the market pike of di. Is. or 41.-25., in-
stead of recurring to the standard of 1797. To that he
(Mr. It.) was ittelinrd to he favourable, and it was only
the consideration that, as they had co.ne so near it, it
was as w. II at once to o ha-k to the whole standard.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) If the standard of -IL Is. was adopt-
ed, the difference of depreciation would amount to no
more than three or four per cent.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
On alre amonait of the depreciation, however, there were
the most* extravagant asser lima made, and which it was
impossible to reconcile. One person statist it at :10 per
avid.; another at. 100 per cent.; and a third at no has
than 50:1 per cent.—(hear, hear, and laughter.) He was
really at a loss to know`what value could he given to such
propsitions. An increase of taxation was also brought
into calculation. lie would ask the house, if Ministers
had mpeeed to increase—aye, even to double taxation,

Would they have bettered their resoureds ? There would not
have been lie was convinced, fan itiereim of reieenhe, tor
an improventent in trade ; on the contrary, they would
both have been materially injured.—(year. hear) It
was not his mention to go over the backneyml subject of
the alteration in the currency; with reference to it,
the
opponents of it declared 114 the Right Hon, tietitleasan's
(Mr- Peel) Hill was the whole cense of the reduction in
the price ilagricaltural produce and of all commodities.
Let it, however, be inquired what would have b ee the
case if the house 114.1 not passed that Bill. but let things
go en as they were before it. The best authority on such
a !glint was the experience of those connected u ith the
Bank ; and the opinions of a Bank Director (Mr. Turner)
were to him (Mr. Ricardo) conclusive won it. Mr. Tur-
ner said, " With regard to the effect of Mr. Peel's Bill
on the issues of the Bank of England. lie could state
from his experience, as a Diree or, that it was a dead
letter, neither accelerating or retarding a return of cash
payments. except so far as they were affected by a pay-
rapt from tioventinent of ten millions of Exchequer
Bills." Such was the opinion of Mr. '1 urner, and such
was the opinion of all Bank Directors, that he ever
beard speak upon the subject. They bold a different rode,
by which they judge of and regulite their issues, 'that
of the application of discounts. They found at present,
from the rate of intereet being so low, that more ;no-
Vey was not wanted in the market. If the Bill of Mr.
Peel had not been passed, he was convinced that the
amount of currency would have been the same at this
moment.—(Hear. hear.)
Mr. DENNISON explained.
Lord FOLKSTON E thought as be bail been alluded
to, that a word or teo from him was necessary. His Hon.
Friend (Mr. It.) seemed to rate that the arguments un
the depreciation of the currency were founded on an ab-
surdity, when he says, that if the taxes were doubled,
the phenomena would have b en still the erne; but be
(Lord F.) contended, that there was no anolocy between
the cases.—(clear, hear.) Soule of the phenomena which
had been referred to could not so readily he admitted—
such as an increase of revenue and an improvement in
commerce. lie was much incline.) to doubt the latter
proposition, as he hard ensure-rcial men every day de-
claring the distressed and declining state of trade. A iYor•
they /Wenn in, who tires lite.' the petition of the city of
London a few evenings since, and another Worthy Alder-
' man on Friday lase, had both declared it—the latter par-
ticularly, with reference to the shipping itoteresca.—
Not only, therefore, did he deny the sicuilari.y of the
cases, but the difference of tit,. phenomena accompanying
their aituation.—(Hear.) With regard to the opinions
, which lie mait:tained on a former o..casioa, which had

been alluded to; he was ready to admit that the proper.
sition would have been inadtni sate to what hail since oc-
curred. He proposed an alteration of the standard, a hich
his Hon. Friend had considered to be equal to 5 per cent.
Ile could not. however, help thinking that his Hon.
Friend hid not been consistent througlion,. He had
since admitted that the depreciation might have reached
10 per cent. If. herefore lie had been correct, he was
not consistent, He (Lord F.) was then ready to admit
the depreelician was in reality in .re than five per cent.—
The fall icy of his Right. lion. Fiiend's argument con-
sisted in this that he admitted no distinction between pa-
per and cold—(hear, hear.) He (Lord F.) maintained,
on the. contrary, that gold was depreciated long before tt
separated front piper—(hear, bear.) It ems material to
attend to that distinction in all CAM a where the currency
was composed of both gold and paper, partieul trly teams
laws existed as they did in Loa-laud. prohibiting the
nt dting, as well as the exportation of gold—(hear, hi ar,)
under lievere penalties. From this accomp tinment the
depreciation would go further than if things were allowed
to tin I their natural level—(hear, hear.) Consideralle
reliance had been placed on the reasoning and caleula•
dons of Mr. Altteloit, but the data taken by hint were
not fair, they should not have been taken front 1797 but
from an earlier period, even before 1792. Under all
considerations be was ready to admit that be did not
think himself wrong in the proposition he male in 11119,
but in the extent of that proposition—(hear, hear.)
Mr. WODEHOUSE read an extract front the speed. of
the late Mr. Horner, expressing an opinion as to the pro-
priety of changing the currency when the standard was de-
predated. If, therefore, they were in error, such was their
authority.
Mr. 110T.NIE SUMNER ad 'rested some observations to
the Chair, in the course of which he contended that it was
not in the power of the House to devise means for the full
relief of the agricultural interests. Instead of relief to the
public being afforded by a compliance with the claimants of
Reformers, the evils of corruption would be much more op-
pressive if the representation of the country fell into their
hands. lie then alluded to the petition from surrey before
the House, which, he contended, did not speak the sense of
all the freeholders of the county. Tnough lie was opposed
to many of !Item at the. Meeting when it was adopted, be was
willing to limn them fir the degree of patience with which
they heard him.—(llenr.)
Mr. GREY BENNEI rose, to recall to the House that
the Requisition for toe Meeting, at which the petition be-
fore them was carried, was signed by five Noblemen, add
some hundreds of respectable freeholders.—(Hear.) That
Requisition did not merely refer to the distresses of the
agricultural classes, but it embraced a tistinct notice ou
the subject of Refoem. The difficulty with which a hearing
was procured at some County Meetings by some speakers
was to be regretted. though it could not excite surprise,
as even that House were occasionally unwilling to hear
people who were not liked, or who were supposed to talk
nonsense.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was very unfortunate, but it
was so.—(dear, hear.)—With regard to what had fallen
from an lion. Member (Mr. Ricardo), he would not enter
into a long discussion, or pretend to combat Isis opinions,
without unnecessarily taking up the time of the blouse on a
subject not directly before it. lie could not, however,
avoid expressing astonishment at the trifling effect imputed
to the alteration of the currency by the Honourahls Mem-
ber. As if a change since ISM which he (Mr. tieunet)
contended was fifty per cent. from a currency of merely
paper, to that of paper on a par with gold, was of no jut-
pornince, and that in a country where credit was of so
much importance to millions--where its transactions
were carried on for more than a quarter of a century
in one currency, and then in another, and when at last
the debt contracted in its greatest depredation was
finally paid in gold —(Hear, bear.) All this appeared so
unhappy an authority, that lie the Hon. Member whu had.
supported the meastn,s, anti led the House into than,
could calculate the depreciation at four per cent., and
though even now be allowed it to be, as if in repentance,
10 per cent. excited his (Mr. Bennet's) surpris Its his
opinion, the depreciation at least asnonnted to 40per cent.
Taking it even at the 10 per cent., thus admitted, did it I
nut add 10 per cent. to the reveille of the public creditor?
to plareinen and to a class of persons who were termed
public functionaries, from the King upon his Throne to
the lowest constable in the land, awl 10 per cent. to the
pay of the army an I the navy.—(Hear,) The House
went on at that period witl:ont consideration, confidingly
and unknowingly.—(heir, hear). They looked to what
i.ai taken ilare In 1707, and in Isl 3, when that ineinur-
aide vote was made, which decided in the wisdom of Par-
liament that things unequal in tbemseiv.a were equal to
each other—(Hear, hear)—when they came to a vote
which stripped Lord King of his property.—(Hear, hear)
alien property was cotdiseated by majorities—(ileo)
and when they voted that a pound might be p 'id by four-
teen shilliogs—(Hear). Let it be recollected what Par-
liament then did, ignorantly but not dishonestly, (Hear).
Be called upon the House to look back, and then to the
distress around it arising from these cans-s 1 and then I.e
entreated them to take it into consitleration.—llear.) I
was often impl wed to do so. —Cons oittee upsn Co. 't-
ree had sat to take into consideration the rate of agehmt.
lute, and it was extraordinary that the source of all the
evils should have escaped their notice, and they starer
looked at the effects pr.Auced by the change ofeartency

• t

k into
(Heir.) The Some hied beit;gl implu.e4 to 111o'
too origin of these distresses, and to aproorire a reme-
tibilSwithont OW. It was, therefore, not surprising
the people should themselves express their ..pinion.,
ant discuss them in places certainly unfit for th- proper
aliscuesion of suck topics.—(Hear.) There c wld not be
a more unsuitable place far the proper consideration of
them than a public me-ting ; but if Parliament n •glecteol
to dolts duty; the people wool.l itnthei.'4.—(Hear. hear.)
!lough Gentlemen might scout the petitions of the peo-
ple, he had no d mitt but that he cJuld prove the equity
of their dahlia, even lig aunt the ralenla•tons of Mr.
ellen ; and he wand, ftr the rearm , conclude, by
hoping that substantial juatice would be done them, and
that Parliament would take their case into comiidem,

tion.— (kleor.)
Mr. PEEL said dist it was impossible, al any par is(
view, to &use to a deterniina ion on the merits of
a question: Me war ready td at tett, thst a restoration to
rash payments, could not be effected wit.iont causing a
injuryi but still tint was no argorn-nt against tie
principle of tilt measure. He wished to postpone any
further observations till the question maw properly under
the consideration of the house, but there was true which
he could not avoid Alluding to; nantely. the pubic faith
of the country, which truest to be insiolab'y a Iher.ll to.
SO far as :he fundoolifer was concern if, it oat true, tho
debt was contracted in a depreciated eurreney ; but on
the return of peace, it was determin-d th it the cash cur-
rency should be restored, which certainly affe ted the oti.
ginai debt. There wee different opinions entertoioed
upon the policy of the Bill of 1119, which effected that
restoration; hut all agrded upon the equity of the mea-
sure. because that which was just in le and IS/I, must
be just in 1 ti 23. though the liveiruble Member fur
Shrewsbury 'night succeed in showing s on. partial in-
stances of injury. What were the r-solutims moved by
Mr. Horner its 161 I ? They were that payrrtents in coot
should be resumed, nat in six months' otter pew, but io
twa pars from aloe time at. which Col were :novel. But
it was mare important to know what were I is iesshrionr,
as far as concerned the . qiiity of the uvastird; the/ we e
that promi-s •ry notes shoot.; be p rid in VezlinZ gieneV ;
that during the oh de time of suepenios of cash
ment- by the n-• altereion slmil I tok- place is the
value of the promissory note. If such seutimen's were
declared in 1611, would it be fair—would it be jus., note
%1 lieu they were called upon to pay, to milo a,17
tion from :he sum which it lord agreed up in to pi%
He now ntsintained every opinion who he toil in Inn,
bat he objected to the expression of any opinion un a par-
tial Lonstiler %lion of toe suleject. He cafel upon tie
house to examine the state o the cma•ry now and in
Isl 7, and not to overlook that int:rortant amid r snots
when they turned their Attentiou to the state of the mac-

renew.
Mr. 310NCK said that hermit! not he r the observa
Bone of the bon. M. usher of Portarlington, without of
faring a few words in rep:y. It would be ratder a strange
principle, that because an injustice is rd been done to the
public creditor at a former period, that that injostlee
should now be continued and visited upon the puldm
debtor. Even, according to 3lr. 3lnselteq's tables, N e
public creditor was sot treated with i•jordice for uteri
than 20 years, white the present in-asure waN to be visit-
ed in perpettuty on the public debtor. In all dhie.ussioes
upon this subject, the public debtor a id creditor wen-
alone considered, while an impor aut it were Amp-
titer 1.11 out of vies ; namely, soortg..gees, and all nits,
harrowed money in one currency, and ,vere now obli;:elL
to pay it at a considerable loss in an altered correnev.—
There was an error of very general ciren'a ion, that the e
wai no difference I etneeis the price an: the value of gold
—but to those who hail attentively considered the sale-
jell!, it was known that while the rice of gol I had de-
preciated no snore thin 4 per cent. the ta'ue had depre-
elated from 40 to 50 I.er cent. Due; nir the snap, nsion of
casts pa) in its, the value of ;fold was so deptecisee.l„
that a.s ounce of gold represzn'ed a (plater of wheat—a
circumstance which was never before known in toe hi--
tory of this Country- The effect of the pr. sent measure
upon produce was, that the landlord naa °hosed to re-
dike his rents two thirds, and as de .tor be leis obliged
to pay one pound, while he received only sit and eight
pence. This was in itse:f sufficient to account for the
distress—(hear,)—of the landed interest which now pre-
Mr. RICARDO rose to set himself right on a point
which had been inisunderstood. Ile admit ed that the
Noble Lord was correct, in stating that h • (Mr. 11.jhat
on one occasion computed tile depreciation at 5 per sent.
and that he now found it to he 10 per emit. ; s 11, how-,
ever, he was rot in error. Ills first comp.:l*km referred
to a payment in bullion ; and it wo ild have Leen co rcct
if the kink had acted precisely in the spirit of thit bill:
but, instead of doing so, they fail cot together a lave
quanti'y of gotd, which they coined into sovereigns, and
then they CAWS down to the loose to pro,.etst an act
'ding firm to. get rid of those tovereigus, woicli
toey could only effect by leglilative in,en rence. If the
measure of which he approved hwl hen acted 03, the
eeote.dation would have b en bitr fire per cent., because
it would have ben measured by the price of gold„
Lord FOLKESTONE s lid he had topp red tar Hon.
Member to have been arguing with reit rere.e to tie art
, of 1819, known by the Lame of Mr. Peel's Bill, hut
now be discovered that his argosnent ratted on a use,-
sure which existe I only in ids imigination.
SECRET SOCIZTICS IN IRELAND.

Mr. BROUGHAM gale mice on the part of the
Member fur St. Albans, that he would we Tnes•!ay
nest makes 'nation relative to the Secret Societies to Ire-
land.
Mr. MAURICE FITZG ERA I.D gave natire that he
would move on the same day for the pi auction of pa-
p rs illative to the consiitu ion ut Secret Societies is
Ireland.

110 VIN LAWS.

Mr. W. WHITAIORE said Cat he rose in pursnanee
of the motion he had given reat:ve to the-Corn Laws.
Before lie procredsd to discuss the question, he wished
to say a few words in answer to some objections thid
were made against the proposition which tie meant to
offer to the consideration of the douse. Is w
that a discussion upon this subject would tend rather
to increase the evils which. ROM existed, and that the
present time wits particularly unfit for the introductiiin
of cosh a subject. Now, as to the first °lire:ion, he
completely differed with tii...tse who ma to it, because he
was persuaded that discussion would rather dilsel than
increase the existing evils. The present state of the
Corn Laws was the cause of the distress, and the root of
all the evils which prevailed among the landed interest.
Feeling so, lie did teat think that he width! discharge
his duly, if be did nut bring the suliject before the at-
'enlist's of Parliament. With ref,renee to bole, he had
only to say, that if the view he had taken of the subject
were correct, as lie hop..! to piote i-, there was no time
which would not Is:, primer to into Ince it, sod of s.l)
others, the present %edit fitting, fur the lees
respecting the most iniiiortaut bs of food mete
such that it was pa ticulorly deairahle that au altera4oll
-hould be made in them at a tint+. Witell it iir.bui I apt ray
to be prospective, and he !lisped Cie spiesii u aould
discussed with that tem, er and c.ildinms necessary lit
take a tight view of it. He cot fessed the tit.-
der which he laboured were considersbly increased by
his inexperience, and the magnitude of the slyest ne-
on which he had to offer his (minions. liiistevt`rs lie
would be as concise as pcp4sibl•-, in placing Iris vices b.-
fore the attention of the The main feattsr-1 I
the present state of the Corn L iws w.es the tl tet. a:101
of price to which they gave rise, but le was smxioas
net to conflict this tketttation :r,c tb ive• 41'•
question of curgetlcy, Incause be thought, in order to

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