The Statesman.
London, England, 1812-06-25 00:00:00

THE piIATESSIAN.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

+-
HOUSE OF LOI DS, Jove c 24. The Poor Debters' Bill and the Irish Customs Regulation 818
tithe Committee of Privilege.; on the claims of the Bishops wee react a third time and pw•sed.
on of Nlth and Kildare, to precedence, the further considoratiun The Loan Bill was recommitted : the Report was brought up
was postponed till to-morrow. and received, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-
The Bank Token Bill, the Militia Adjutants Bill. the Militia morrow.
Subalierus' Bill, the Irish Glass Drawbacks' Bill. the Scots' Es-, The Linen Bounty Bill. the Excise Bill, the Assessed Tars
vise Bill, the Bermuda Trade Bill, the land-'as Redemption Bill, the Addni ;mi Postage Bill, the Irish Treasury Bills BM, 1
Anwndment Bill, the County Rates' Bill, and the Pour Deators' and the Irish Batter Bill, were severally read a second time,
Relief Bill, were brought up from the Commons by Mr. bush- and ordered to he committed to-morrow.
ington, Mr. Lygon, Mr. Wortley, and other Ntembers, nod te•td I The Southeni Whale Fishery Bill, and the West India Li-
t fist time. and the Reports ordered
On the third reading of the Margate Pier Bill, Lord It EDF:S- etoelbeicesekßeilii4dweto..ntmthormowolligh, Cauunittee4'
DALE moved to strike out a chime which Motion, alter some i Lord .1 twELIT N reported, that the Prince Regent, pursuant
observations from ford Sheffield and the Earl of Liverpool, was Ito an Address of the House, would order certain Accounts of
negatived, and the Bill read a third time and passed, and sent ; i Disbursements from the Civil I,ist to be laid before it.
lack to the Commons with Ameadinents. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
In the Appeal " Lord Waterpark e. Austin," the Decree of . The House ;went into a Committee of Supply, when Mr.
the Court of Chancery in Ireland was affirmed. i Wellesley Pole, Mr. Rose, and Mr. Wharton, moved Resolve
A conference took place with tire Commons by desire of the lions voting the following sums :
Lords on the subject matter of the last conference. X 1,4 i 6.000 for Irish Treasury Bills outstanding;
The Irish Brand Juries' Bill passed through a Committee with 43,4137 for the Royal Naval Asylum ;
lineadments.—Report te-morrow. • 7,405 for the Trustees of the British Museum ;
'the Dublin Coals Bill also passed through a Committee, and 1,000 for die purchase of Books relating to the History
teas repOrted. of Great Britain and her dependencies;
APPEALS. 4,53') for Printing the Journals;
Lod REDESDALE called the attention df the 11,585 for the Erection of Bethlem hospital;
Souse to the great grievance arising from the number I Rides 6,910 othere Commissioners of Public Record! ;
many smaller sums an voted for Mocellane-
of appeals before the house, and the delay in decidiug my, services. -
upon them. He thought it of the greatest importance ; Colonel PALMER moved a Resolution, " that the sum of
that some measure should be adopted, even in the pre- 78,3411. be granted to John Palmer, Esq. as the arrears of his
per ventage on the receipts of the Post Office."
Sent Session, late as the period was, In order that ; • After some conversation between Mr. Long, Mr. Wharton,
Best Session a commencement might be made in a ; Mr. Whitbread, Colonel Palmer, Mr. Tierney, Sir J. Newport,
atildxfre.hetiCrouekrer,threeltrorint
snore expeditious mode of getting through the ap- toiotnhewaastneaerneeeedortothe l'hheanguill'or of
an
peals. To do this he thought it would be absolutely i reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.
'necessary to provide assistance to the Lord Chancel . ; were
Message from the Lords demanded a conference on the
! we;:baypploltirtbeodurulimlll,rewtihtiLls
towasthea=d toe andbebritagtre
for in The Court of Chancery, in order that the No-
ble and Learned Lord might be enabled to devote Jesrpose of conducting it. On their return Admiral Mooniest
More time to the hearing of appeals iti that Ilouse, i reported at the Bar the result of the conference. ;
their Lordships' assmst
• The LORD CHANCELLOR stated the great to the Londeon trto from
r announced
ythjouraoaseßill, and to the Margate liar-
evils that arose from the delay in the judicial busi- iltoor Bill.
I Civil Sir Cf::. filreEllaVnlVißnTessoithdureewneehisor
aotiz relativeiteln before
borne mess of the House, and obseived, that he had for-
borne from pressing the subject whilst under consi- . Parliament, during the stages of which he should have an op-
deratiosi in a Committee of the other House. The : portunity of expressing his opinion upon the subject.
Report of that Committee had, however, now been I INLAND NAVIGATION OF IRELAND..
made, and he must observe, that it was quite imps. ! Sir JOHN NEWPORT, in pursuance of notice,
sible for the House to get through its judicial business ; rose to submit several Resolutions to the House on
without some other arrangement was resorted to, it ; the present state of the Inland Navigation of Ire-
being impossible for the Chancellor to devote a sufli- ! land. He stated that there appeared to him that the
cient portion of time to the hearing of appeals, unless • greatest neglect had been shewu in this department.
assistance was given to him in the Court of Chancery. At the Union, an event that was never referred to
Lord ELLEN BOROUGH•concurred in opinion ! without giving obvious pain to the Noble Lord (Cu-
that some prompt arrangement was absolutely neces- ' tlereagh), the sum of 500,0001. was voted for the pur-
eery, with a view to the more expeditious hearing of pure of completing certain canals and other works in
appeals,otherwise there would heir denial of justice `the sister island, and five Comptrollers, with a salary
to the public, and the character of the House would ;of 5001. each, appointed over it. As, however, the
be disgraced. 1 continuance of their pay depended upon the continu-
The Earl of LIVERPOOL also urged the neces- il ance of the funds in their hands, over which they
aity of some measure being adopted in the present 1 were appointed, they had taken good care that little
Session for that purpose. . or no money should be expended in any thing but the
Earl GREY thought, that before any such mea- payment of their salaries; so that during 12 years
sure was resorted to, an enquiry ought to take place, , ouly 197,0001. had been laid out, 76,9401. of which
as /o whether the business in the Court of Chancery had been applied to discharge the salaries of the
had actually increased, it being understood that the I Comptrollers, Engineers, and other dependents.-;-
number of Bills its that Court was not so great as in j He contrasted the slow progress of the works in Ire-
the time of Lord Hard wicke. 1 land with the rapid advance of the Caledonian Ca-

Lord REDESDALE contended, that the numbqr
of Bills was no criterion of the business of the Court
of Chancery, which he knew of his own knowledge
bad Immensely increased. The increase arising from
'notions of various descriptions, from cases of bank-
ruptcy, and a variety of other matters. Causes also
lasted much longer now, not only in the Court of
Chtnieery, than they had done within his own ex-
perience, but also in other Courts, and likewise in
that House, from the practice of a greater number of
Counsel being employed on each bide, and their
speeches being much longer than, formerly.
The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that who-
ever might be Chancellor, it was impossible for any
man in that situation to attend sufficiently to the bu.
sin. as in the gourt of Chancery, and the judicial bu-
si.iess in that House.

nal, upon which 310,0001. had been laid out, and
only 20,0001. paid in salaries, &c. In Ireland the
public had for two years been deprived of the use of
the Shannon Navigation by a private squabble. He
thought it therefore high time for the Legislature to
interfere, and with that view he moved three Reso-
lutions, recapitulating the various facts he had stated,
and recommending that the Inland Navigation should
hereafter be superintended by the Board of Trea-
sury in Ireland, which had little else to do, and that
the Comptrollers should be discharged.
Mr. W. POLE very warmly resisted the motion,
insisting that the Hon. Baronet had not made out
even the shadow of a case against the Comptrollers.
He contended that every thing that could be done by
men had been performed by them to forward the object
for which they were appointed. They were not to be

blamed that too little had been expended, on the

contrary, the economy with which they had pre-
served the public money, was highly laudable. The
Hon. Baronet had not dealt fairly by the House, in
stating that 76,9401. had been expended in salaries—
for the truth was, that many incidental charges had
been paid out of it. He complained that the Hon.
Baronet had brought forward uo particulars, con-
tenting himself with bare extravagant assertions : he
(Mr. Pole) would willingly afford him the means of
establishing their truth, if it were in the power of
the Hon. Baronet, by affording him every necessary
document if he would move for them : if he did not,

Ministers would take care that they should be laid,
before the country. lie would maintain, against all
the world, that the Directors of Inland Navigation
had conducted themselves most laboriously, indefati-
gably, and honourably, and the nation was much
indebted to their exertions, more particularly to that
venerable and useful public servant, Mr. Sackville
Hamilton. With regard to the proposal that the du-
ties of the Comptrollers should be transferred to the
Board of Treasnry, he bagged to state that it was
utterly impossible for the latter to discharge the ar- I
&sous and important functions executed by thefor-
mer. He thought the better way of meeting such
Resolutions as those proposed was, by moving the
previoukquestion which he did accordingly.
Mr. PARNELI, contended, that there were no
works as yet completed, at all adequate to the ex.
pences which had been hitherto incurred. He thought
upon the whole, that the system under which the bu-
.

siness had been carried on, was radically bad.
Lord CASTLEItEAGII contended, that the old
system was inefficient, and observed, under it there
had been repeated instances of canals, after having
been cut to a considerable extent, abandoned, on
account of the impossibility of supplying them with
water.
Mr. W. FITZGERALD \vindicated the conduct
of the Lords-of the Irish Treasury.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT replied, and the house
divided.

For the previous question -
Against it

dewed with lands for their support, and in Ireland
these lands were to an enormous amount. The Poor I
were not now provided for out of the tithes. These •
were principles to be found in Blackstone and other , 1
law writers. In Ireland, however, all the tithes
were absorbed by the incumbent. In England Poors'
Rates. were established, a measure which he consi-
dered
as injurious, and which he certainly did not
net wish to see introduced into Ireland ; whereas 1
the Poor of Ireland were now deprived of the share :
of tithe which they once received, and were even
become the payers of it. tie (imposed, if his Bill
should be now introduced, to have it printed, that it
might be considered in the interval between this and
the next Session, when it would undergo the discus-
sion of the House.. Ho should move, therefore,
for leave to bring in a Bill for better ascertaining the
Tithes on Potatoes in Ireland.
Lord SASTLEREAGH said, the Right Honour-
able Gentleman had attempted to shake the founda-
tions of property, by drawing a distinction between
i
the property of the Church, and that belonging to
other individuals. Nothing ought to be so little to-
lerated at this day, as any such distinction between
the right of tithe, and that of property of any other
description. This was a direct invasion of the rights
lof the Church. The Right Hon. Gent. had talked
of humanity to the poor ; but such humanity ought
to be exercised at the public expence, and not at the
expence of any other class of subjects. Ile would
therefore enter his protest against the principles of
I the Right lion. Gent. though he would not oppose
the introduction of the Bill, as he had in some sort
promised not to oppose it at present.
Mr. MARTIN (of Galeily) said this was the
! most inauspicious moment that the Right Hon. Gent.
could have chosen for his attack on the property of
the Clergy. The Protestant Clergy of Ireland were
both numerous and respectable ; and as an advocate
of the Catholics, he should be anxious to demonstrate
to the Protestant Clergy that.he was no less anxious
to protect their interests. The arguments of the
IRight Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Fitzgerald) were
exactly the arguments which had boon made use of
in the National Assembly of France against the Biens
de l'Eglise ; and it would appear, therefore, that he
was indebted to French literature for ali his ideas on
this subject.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD said, he did not lay down'
what .he had advanced on the nature of tithe as.
the principles on which he was to found a figislative •
measure ; nor did he mean to question the rights of
the Clergy as they now existed. With 'respect to the ,
charge which had been brought against him by an '
llonourable Gentleman (Mr. Abirtin),of having been
indebted to FrenCh literature for his ideas, had, he
not expressly stated, that these were the opinions of
grave authors, whom he panted, on English law, be
should have been less astonished at the mistake. He
had never adopted French theories ; and when these
theories were in full force he had always been averse
to them ; but he believed the Honourable Gentleman
himself was at Paris during the period of this preva.
lence end if he was not misinformed, the Honour.'
able Gentleman had spoken in public at Paris, at a..
time when any other sentiments than such as were in
the spirit of the fashionable doctrines, would have met
with rather an unfavourable reception.—[Here Mr.:
Martin expressed signs of dissent.]
Mr. W. POLE said, if the Clergy had not a right
to the tenth of the produce of the land, all the deci-
sions of our Courts were not law. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had said, he had taken the law for regu-
lating the tithe on hemp for his model. But the Bill
did not affect impropriators ? Did he mean to in-
' elude impropriators in his Bill ? Were they to be
allowed a tenth of the potatoes, and the Clergy ex-
cluded, who had an equal right ? The impropri-
ators possessed one-third of the whole tithes of Ire-
land.

Mr. PARNELL said Dr. Paley, Lord Mansfield,
and Mr. Pitt, were all of opinion that a commutation j
of tithes was advisable.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, the principles laid down by the Right lion.
Gentleman (Mr. Fitzgerald) were such as to take
away from him every hope of being able to concur'
with the Bill.
Mr. ROBINSON joined in disapproving of these ;
principles.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed, that the Noble
Lord (Castlereagh) seemed in his. new zeal for the,
preservation of the right of tithes, to forget altoge-
ther the Act of Agistment. The monstrous Resolu:
tion of the Irish House of Commons, by which every
man who proceeded to levy Tithe on pasture lands.,
' toes afterwards sanctioned by Parliament under the
auspices of that Noble Lord. [Hear, hear !]
what were the consequences ? Some of the richest
pasture lands Were in the possession of the Protestant
! Gentlemen ; and the consequence of this law was, to
throw the burden of Titter-ow therpotatoe gardens of
the Poor Catholie_Lfr
Mr. M.' FITZALD wished it to be under-
stood, that the Bill. he-: proposed to introduce was
merely groended on the existing practical grievance
Lof Tithes. . What. he had stated, was merely in or-.
Lderto they •the original Constitution of Tithes, as
j had down by`all the law authorities.
I Mr. MARTIN explained. In charging the Right
' Hon. Gent. (Mr. Fitzgerald) with being indebted for
his information to French literature, he certaiulr at-
, fixed no obnoxious signification to the words. lhere
were not in any language better Sermons than those
of Masillon, Bossuet, and Flechier—[a laugh.]
The SOLICITOR-GENVRAL spoke against the
. principle of the Bill. • •
Sir JOHN NEWPORT explained, when leave
was given to bring in the Bill.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
51 Lord STANLEY.rose to move that a sum not ex-
-13
ceeding five tho'usand pounds should he granted to
majority - 38 I Mr. Crompton, for his invention of a machine to fe-
On our re-admission, we found cilitate the spinning of cotton. It appeared from
Mr. M. FITZGERALD on his legs, speaking on the evidence of witnesses who had been examined in
the subject of Tithes on potatoes ist Ireland. It a Committee above stairs, that our cotton trade had
had been said that in all commutations of tithe, the increased, within the lest. thirty years, as twenty to
right of the clergy to a tenth part of the produce one, and that one-half, or nearly two-thirds of that
must be admitted. But this was now the law of the increase was attributable to the machine for mule
land. Originally, there was a four-fold division of spinning, invented by Mr. Crompton.
tithes ; one-fourth for maintaining the fabric of the Mr. Blackburn supported the motion, as did also
church ; a fourth for the bishops ; a fourth for the the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Davies
Clergy; and another fourth for the maintenance of Giddy, when the sum iris unanimously voted, and
the poor. Now the fabric of the church was sop- the Report ordered to be teceNed tn-MorrewAis
ported by taxation. The Bishops were amply en- day).