The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1842-06-03 00:00:00

vast experience," had been examined, and had shown " the
utter unfitness of Liverpool as a packet station ;" and the
editor added " that there was little doubt but the committee
would recommend government to make a railway from
Chester into Wales." Ile (Mr. Lawrence) had no objection
to such a railway being made, but he hoped the public would
not be involved in the expense. (Hear.) The last subject
to which he would direct attention was to a bill, called the
Municipal Reform Amendment Bill, at present in parlia-
ment. This bill would interfere in a most important manner
with their privileges, as it would prevent any member of the
council from holding or taking a lease of corporation pro-
perty, or being directly or indirectly connected with it in any
way. It appeared that as the law at present stood it was im-
possible for any member of council to take such a lease, and
that by this law many of them were legally disqualified from
occupying their seats in that room. it was right to have an
act passed to get rid of this difficulty. The Liverpool coun-
cil was, he believed, the first to see the difficulty, and, having
pointed out the condition of the town, a bill was introduced
which had the effect of declaring that the corporation leases
were not to be considered in the light of contracts. So far
so good. With this bill the council would have been satis-
fied; but during its progress Sir George Wild and Mr. Jer-
vis put in a clause to say that though it was right as regarded
the past, yet, for the future, no member of the council was
ever to accept a lease. He called upon them to look at the
position and the degradation to which such a clause would
subject them. Who would ever come into the council again ?
In whose hands would the affairs of the town be intrusted ?
Were the present councillors to be suspected of fraudulent
practices ? And there was a great difficulty in persuading
several that the clause ought to be withdrawn ! However,
Lord Sandon was, as usual, on the alert, and the law
officers of the crown stated that the obnoxious clause would
be withdrawn. There was a great reluctance to treat the
council as they ought to be treated. Mr. Rushton had been
exceedingly useful in the business. He had afforded the
council every assistance in showing the claims and rights of
the Liverpool corporation, and on the subject of the Im-
provement Bill, he was also anxious to be of use.
Mr. HOUGHTON seconded the motion for the confirmation
of the proceedings.
Mr. PARKER expressed his regret at hearing from the lips
of Mr. Lawrence such an unfavourable opinion as to the es-
tablishment of Liverpool as the West India packet station.
He hoped the Finance Committee would, nevertheless, per-
severe till they had obtained that desirable object.
Mr. BIRKETT rose, not to object to any part of the pro-
ceedings now read, but to express his regret, and which, in a
few days, he thought the council would agree him, that the
council should have modified as they conceived the inter-
ment clauses, by which he feared they would be deprived of
a hocus standi to oppose any public measure that might be
brought forward, and which might be deemed injurious to
the inhabitants.
Mr. LLOYD alludedto the clause enabling the Corporation
to purchase property under certain circumstances for the
purpose of improvement, to which clause he had made some
objection in the early stage of the bill before the Council. It
had come to his knowledge that some remarks had been made
in the committee, respecting the part which he had taken
against that clause, and he hoped the individual who made
those remarks would speak out before his (Mr. Lloyd's)
face.

Mr. E A RLE thought the clause was a most useful one, and
he would like to know why it was withdrawn.
Mr. BUSHELL expressed a strong opinion against the vio-
lation of the secrecy that ought to be observed with respect
to the proceedings of the Finance Committee.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE said he was sorry that Mr. Lloyd
should think he would say anything behind his back that he
would not say before his face. Mr. Lawrence proceeded to
state that he went to London with the determination of
pressing the clause in question, as well as every other clause
in the bill, when he found Mr. Lloyd engaged on behalf of
the Commercial Bank, for whom he wished to obtain an ex-
ception. Mr. Lloyd was referred to the Town-clerk, with
whom he entered into an arrangement, that the Commercial
Bank should be exempt from the operation of the clause, or
if this could not be attained the clause should be withdrawn.
He (Mr. Lawrence) was somewhat surprised at this, aad felt
it necessary to withdraw the clause in consequence.
Mr. LLOYD explained at some length the history of the
proceeding. He had opposed the clause long before he had
any idea that he should be called upon by the bank, and when
he was so called upon, he drew up a petition upon the subject,
which he read to the Council.
Mr. BIRKETT expressed his opinion, that the clause was a
most objectionable one.
The TOWN-CLERK detailed the history of the proceedings
respecting the clause, and characterised the conduct cf
Mr. Lloyd as straightforward and open. Mr. Okill did not
value the clause, and had stated to him, (the Town-clerk,)
that no case had occurred within the last five years in which
the clause would have been of the slightest use.
Mr. AIKIN recommended the Finance Committee to with-
draw the Conservancy Bill rather than run the risk of en-
countering further opposition in parliament.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE in reply said, he thought a Con-
servancy Bill was required, and that such a bill would ere
long be passed. After some further explanations with the
government, the committee would come before the council
and state how they stood. In the meantime, no steps would
be hastily taken in the matter.
The proceedings of the committee were then confirmed.
IMPROVEMENT COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Improvement Committee, com-
prising some alterations in the line of improvements on the
east side of Lime-street, were read and confirmed.
WATCH COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Watch Committee were read and
confirmed.

MARKETS' COMMITTEE.
The proceedings of the Markets' Committee were read and
confirmed.

TOWN-HALL ESTABLISHMENT.

The proceedings of this committee having been read,

Mr. PARKER. wished to be informed whether it was the
intention of the council to enter into another seven years'
contract for the hire of the Judges' lodgings? He believed
that the hire of furniture for the accommodation of the
Judges had already cost the corporation about £2,000. He
protested against the payment of 15 per cent. for the hire
of chairs and tables ; and he moved as an amendment, that
the committee be instructed to purchase, instead of hire,
furniture for the Judges' lodgings.

Mr. KILSHAW seconded the amendment.
Mr. EAItLE commended Mr. Parker for having called the
attention of the council to such an outlay.
Mr. BOLTON said, the Judges' lodgings were not the pro-
perty of the corporation. In his opinion, they should buy
the house before they furnished it. (No, no.) He thought
it a more economical plan to pay a per tentage on the furni-
ture hired, than to sink money in an investment.
Mr. BARCLAY did not agree in the observation that it was
necessary to buy a house before they furnished it, seeing that
many gentlemen furnished houses without buying them, and
for aught he knew, Mr. Bolton might be one of the number.
The question was, whether it was worth the while of the
council to purchase the furniture, whicht, in his opinion,
would cost £3,000.

Mr. EARLE thought it very probable that the house might
be handsomely and suitably furnished for about £2OOO. The
furniture, last in it had been anything but creditable to the
corporation..
Mr. BRIGHT thought the judges were to be accommodated
in the new assize courts.

Mr. EARLE denied that this was to be the case

The proceedings were then confirmed, and the committee
was instructed to consider and report upon the subject of
purchasing the furniture.

EDUCATION COMMITTEE

The proceedings of the Education Committee, comprising
the appointment of Mr. Isaac Holmes, as second master, on
trial, were read. The committee reported the numbers in
the schools to be as follows :
NORTH SCHOOL. SOUTH SCHOOL.

Boys..
Girls..
Infants

233 I 80y5...
165 I Girls..
157 lnfants
' 545

Total . 1038
Mr. MOLYNEUX moved the confirmation of the proceed-

Mr. EARLE wished to ask a question. Under the old
regime a great deal had been said about reporting between
Protestants and Catholics. The plan had been adopted for
purpose of showing the immense number of Catholics who
were in the schools in proportion to Protestants, although
there was a good number of Protestants also. He wanted
the same thing to take place now with a different object, be-
cause it had been said by one of the conservative members,
that if a large proportion of Catholics did not attend some
alteration would take place. He wished the Council, there-
fore, to state the numbers of each denomination according to
the old plan. _

Mr. SANDS denied that any such promise had been given
by the Education Committee, that if the Catholics did not
attend the schools they would alter the system. No such
promise had been stated.
Mr. AIKIN.-It was stated in this room.

Mr. SANDS believed the observation made was this :—that
if the schools were not filled on the present system some in-
quiry should be made.
Mr. EARLE.—If Mr. Sands cannot understand plain
English, I don't know what to say.
Mr. PLATT.—Mr. Gladstone said that if the schools did
not fill, or at least, if a number of Catholics did not attend,
some alteration must be made that would induce the Catho-
lics to come.

Mr. SANDS.—It is not well to go into the subject ; but if
there are no Catholics in the schools I cannot be surprised
when every effort is made by you to prevent them coming.
Mr. EARLE.—Who is making the effort ?
Mr. SANDS.—I did not say you.
Mr. EARLS.—Yes, you said" You."

Mr. SANDS.—I say you and your party have made great
efforts to prevent the children from coming. (Hear.) Have
not the Catholic priests gone to the schools ?—(hear, hear)--
but I do not wish to go into the question.
Mr. PLATT.—Mr. Sands is in error. We have offered
every encouragement, but they do not come, and I am not
surprised at it. We should not ourselves do anything dero-
gatory ; and why should they ? The priests have a right to
advise them. I look to my priests, and why not the Catholics
to theirs ? I think some shelter and education ought be given
them, and we are not doing our duty unless we do so. The
Catholics have a right to part of the administration of the
public funds.
Mr. PARKER.-1 am sorry this discussion should have ari-
sen ; but the worthy alderman (Mr. Earle), true to his
pledge of agitating the question on every occasion, has raised
it. - _ - -

The MAYOR.—Is Mr. Earle's motion seconded ?
Mr. EARLE.—I have no motion, sir. I merely made a
request that the denominations should be set forth as for-
merly. I raised no discussion.
Mr. BOLTON.---I think Mr. Earle is right, and that we
should have the information sought for. It involves no
principle, and we have a fair right to expect that information
which will enable us to judge how far the schools are con-
ducted for the benefit of the inhabitants.
Mr. PARKER.—As Mr. Platt has stated that injustice has
been done to the CatholiCs, I am prepared to prove that any
other system of education than that now in 9peration would
be contrary to the laws of the land. (Hear, bear.)
The MAYOR.—The question is whether you will make the
return. Ido not think we ought to open the whole ques-
tion again.
Mr. PARKER.—If Mr. Platt asserts that injustice has been
done to the Roman Catholics I think I am prepared to prove
that he is not correct. In a recent decision given in the
vice-chancellor's court by Sir Knight Bruce it was stated
that in the case of Bury St. Edmund's—
Mr. BOLTON.—I rise to order. The general principle of
the school question is not now raised.
The MAYOR.—I am of that opinion.
Mr. PARKER.—Then I shall reserve myself for Mr. Yate's
motion.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES.—I object to the return. (Hear.)
If there were a return of the number of Catholics attending
the schools, the priests would interfere and compel their pa-
rents to take them away. (Hear, hear.) I, therefore, ob-
ject to any return of the kind. With respect to the appoint-
ment of an individual of my own name—(a laugh)—as second
master, I think it right to say that he was about three years
at the Mechanics' Institution, that he bears an excellent
character, and that I have no doubt he will be found to an-
swer.
Mr. SANDS...-4 quite agree in what has fallen from Mr..
Holmes, knowing, as I do, how the system worked before..
I know an instance in which thirty or forty children were-
turned out of the school from the mere fact of its being:
known that they were there ; and if this return were al--
lowed, the same thing would occur again. (Hear.)
Mr. G. H. LAwnsNee.—lf we gave the names it might'
the numbers would not be:
ao
te
tceunrd,
ed butw
thhe
smu ec
hr e a f
na c t oof
effect. giving
Mr. BIREETT.—Mr. Holmes has so well expressed my.