The Statesman.
London, England, 1821-05-19 00:00:00

••----


eartberowara, residing in the County of Stafford, com-
plaining that he was attacked on the eveningrof the
lath of August, 1819, at Manchester, by a Yeomanry
Soldier, and wounded in the head, although he (the Pe-
titioner) had not attended the Meeting of that day.—
Ordered to Boon the table and be printed.
Mr. BENNET moved for a Return of all Members of
the House holding offices on the Ist of May, 1911.

(h dared.
A Message from the Lords announced their Lard-
ships' Assent to several Bilk.
Mr. D. GILBERT presented a Petition
ff or anrom cerlter-
tain
Inhabitants of Betbnal-green, prayng a
atiou of the law respecting the management of the pub-
lic roads.
The Honourable Member expressed his wish to
bring the Metropolis Road Bill under the immediate
attention of the House, if he should be allowed to

do so.
Mr. H. GURNEY spoke against the Bill.
The Petition was received, and ordered to lie on the

II

table.
A conversation then followed as to the time for
bringinr on the Metropolis Road Bill, hut
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the order of the flay for the House resolving itself into
a Cornniittee of Ways and Means.
Mr. HUME expressed his intention on the second'
reading of the Spoiled Stamps Bill, to move a clause
!
for reducing the per tentage allowance to the country
commissioners. He therefore wished to know when
the Bill would be brought forward.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that iu the present state of pubc businss, be was
unable to say when the Bill could come on for di,
et-ision.
Lord MILTON begged the llentlemen of the
lauded interest would attend to this Bill, whirls, pro-
fessing to rive relief in Spoiled Stamps, imposed ad-
ditional ditties.
The House then resolved into a Committee.
The CHAIRMAN put a question for applying the
utitlaioted Dividends in the Bank to the public service,
,•rscept a sum of 100,001. which was always to remain.
Mr. IiRF.NFELL called the attention of the House
to the large balance of the public money remaining in
the band:. of the Batik. It hail been upwards of four
h. •t year, and vas likely to be as much
the presetit yaar. The loss to the country was at least
141040,001. Ile entreated the attention of Isis Majesty's
liovertituent to the sehject, for he really could lay no
Maine upon the haul;.
Mr GARING said he had no connection with the
Bank. yet he could not but dither from his lion. Friend
on this subject of the public balance. The retenti its of
the balances was stipulated on ti,e renewal of the Char-
ter of the Bank. It would appear by the correspond-
ence which had taken place some years since between
Pitt slid the then 6ovei nor of the Bank, that the
retention of the public balances by the Bank was then
t.,hen into consideration. The Bank bad paid for the
advantage, and he trusted the House in justice would
Lat deprive them of it, notwithstanding the continued
ht,tailitv of his lion. Friend against the Bank, in the
tiettse of which hostility his lion. Friend too often
11. A into unintended misrepresentation.
Mr. OR EN FELL, in explanation, observed, that lie
Lad expressly stated he laid no blame upou the
Bank in this respect. He was aware of the situ-
ation of the Government with the Bank, probably
as wall as his I ton. Friend. The same argument urged
his Lion. Friend had been urged by the Bank Direc-
ti, s whets the balance was as large as twelve millions;
et would his Hon. Friend contend that the balances
0:.41it never to be reduced? He repeated that at a
Cioe whet tome of the Public Departments were rais-1
ing money on Exchequer Bills to go on, it was highly
it. 0: over to suffe, these large balances to remain in
hands of the Bank ; and he trusted the Chancel-
hat of the Exchequer would turn his attention to the
st.h;ect.
Mr. BARING explained. His object was merely
tt,4liew, that the Bank bad given an equivalent for the
a•'ealitage of which his lion. Friend wished them to
ba deprived.
Mr. 11l ME said, that from the line of argument
ta!:ea by his lion. Friend (Mr. Baring) one really
ttould suppose his Honourable Friend, the Member
Penryo (Mr. Gretifell) proposed to work some
an'l that, too, upon a pour Company. This
boor Company divided 26 millions since the year 1796,
exclusive of its ordinary dividend of 7 per cent. He
toonglit there was no necessity fir leaving so large a
balance as four millions in the hands of this Company,
especially as the agreement alluded to by his lion.
Vriend did not engage for any specific balance. lad
ie
vas sorry his Honourable Friend (Mr. Baring) h
read a lecture against economy.
Mr. CALL: RAFT said there was no analogy between
tl.e case of the Bank and that of a private Banker.—
The latter derived his protit for his trouble from ba-
lances left in his hands, but the Bank were paid no
less than 270,0001. a year for managing the public
businese.—(Hear, hear.)—A million would lie thought
Le a very liberal balance to leave in their hands.
The motion was then ascreed to, and the House re-
solved itself into a Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
a Resolution for the issue of certain Exchequer Bills
to carry on the public works.
Sir J. NEWPORT complained of the conduct of the
Irish Commissioners, who had neglected to make a re-
turn of the rules by which they were guided.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERelefend-
ed the Commissioners, who, he said, were most honour-
able men.
Sir J. NEWPORT disclaimed any attack upon their
private character. Ile knew them to be most respect-
&hie men, and Isis remarks affected their public con-
duct only.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained.
Mr. S. RICE said, that in consequence of the se-
. glect referred to, Ireland had not derived that advan-
tage from the late legislative measure which was in-
tended by the Ministers and that House. He had no
complaint to make of them as individuals, except that
of indolence.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER 'lse motion was agreed to ; as was
another for 500,0001. u an advance to the Bank of

Ireland.
• The House then resumed, the Chairman reported
progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Wedues•
day next.

AN

.T

The Geller of the Day was then moved, that the
House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
On the question being put,
Mr. CHEWING rose.—ln the present distressed
state of the coutitry, a distress amounting almost to
confiscation, lie could not' refrain from calling`
the
the
attention of the House to that distress, and
forcible yet respectable Petitions from the people,
imploring that 'louse to endeavour to remove it.—
From the beginnio_; of the present Session every at-
tempt to reduce the public expenditure had failed.—
Gut al:hough th,se attempts had failed, he was con-
vinced they would ultimately work a practical benefit,
for they had led to the exposure rif the grossest abathe
ses
in tho Public Departments. Such, however, was
present state of the country, that many able men be-
lieved that reform must take place within, or Revolu-
tion %timid conic from without. If estimates like the
present wrin brought forward in another year, he
thought the country might be expected to say as an
Illustrious Personage was reported to have said, on
seeing the brad of Charles I. held up, when the coffin
of that 7ihonart lo nas opened at Witidsor—" Take it
away, it is too lisurillole to he looked upon." So con-
vinced was he of the necessity of regulating the ex-
peutlitot; e of the c ~tontry by principles of the must
rigid economy, Coat he fur one, though by no means
desirous of I log;:in,.; the machine of Government,
would he content to remain in that house till Christ.
was, rather than tun rut to lode away one shilling of
the public money. mote than was absolutely necessary.
If it should appear that 'Alinisters after all their pro-
fri.:Lion of anxi-tv to relieve the people, bad made no
reduction in the public expenditure, there was no
saying to what extremities the sufferers might be
driven. lie had but lately come from the country,
and from all that he load seen, and all that he had
heard, he was ram ineed that unless some relief
were afforded to the middling classes, that most
respectable and very useful body, the yeonsanry of
England wocld he at an end. He belieted that there
was not an individual in the realm who would not wil-
lingly give all that t uuld with justice he required of
him, to support the dignity of the Crown, and to meet
the exigencies of the State. But in times like these
their mover ought not to be lavished away on useless
sinecures nil lac-laud, and dumb-lords of the Admi-
ralty, and nll other officers that were not really wanted.
While s..ch proteetlings were continued, he could not
be surprised at finding that they created a strong sen-
sation of dissatisfaction and disgust. Ile concluded
h} moving a. an amendment, that all the words of the
original moduli should be °emitted after the word
" that," for the - • wrds, hat
"it he an instruo t, that duly
taking into cono; 1-essd state
of the country, system of
1 11
se same t:
the mast rigorio c
be elf, deli with, sal interests
of the Statr."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had
nothing to offer in opposition to the general principle
on which the amendment was founded, but be denied
that such au io.struetion to the Committee was neces-
sary, bveause he denied that there had been any ne-
glect of economy.
Mr. MABERLY thought those reductions had not
been made which the country had a right to expert,
since after all they had beard of a diminution of ex-
penditure to the amount of 2,000,0001. it appeared
that the present estimates only fell short of those of
ISII, by about 400,000/. He
se considered it
ring-
strums -
struns that now in time of peace, an expen
17,000,000/. should be incurred for the Government
of die Countty to maintain a laud Nice of 110,000
men. The present situation and prospects of the
country called for economical measures. He did not
doubt but if proper exertions were made, a saving of
4,000,01101. might be effected in the course of the
year. This would conciliate the people, and tend to
place the finances In that sound state, in which every
friend to his country would wish to see: them. But
the Reform slionlal begin at the head, and go dowc-
wards, and before the lower classes were called upon
to retrench, his Majesty's Ministers would do well to
set the example, and in his opinion, his Majesty him-
self. He reminded Ministers of the plan Mr. Pitt
had formerly devised, for relieving the country of the
ir
National Debt, complained that it had been departed
from, and strongly insisted on the necessity of adopt
ing aem of the must iigisaitd economy.
Lorsystd LON ItON DERRY l, these discussions en-
abled Gentlemen to make large assertions, which they',
could not justify in the Committee. For example, the,
lion. Co.ntlrinati had stated that the public expenditure'
of 17 millions, of which five millions were dead ex-
pense, being altogether remuneration for past services,
and might then( fore be called 12 millions, might be
reduced by four millions ; that is to say, that the Go-
vernment of this immense empire could be conducted
for eiht mi
Ge llions.
m h
This was so monstrous that te
Honourable ntle
an would not have hazarded it in a
Committee.
Mr. MABERLY said, the Noble Lord had imputed
to him a gross blunder. He had never put the wh le ex-
pense of the empire at 17 millions, hat the military ex-
penditure only.—(Hear.)—Besides these 17 millions,
there were four millions of the Civil List, the Miscella-
neous Estimates, and Payments out of the gross Reve-
nue. The tednction must be spread over the whole
expenditure.
CALCR AFT said, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Maberly) so far from having feared to advance his
opinions in a Cvmmittee, had stated them over and
over again without being refuted. The reason for a
motion sorb as the present was, that when they got
into the Committee any benefit was hopeless ;--they
had moved reduction after redaction, and not a shilling',
had been reduced. The Honourable Gentleman who
made the motion was deserving of thanks, as welll
the substance of it as for the manner in which
proposed it.
Mr. HUSKISSON said the Hon. Gentleman (Mt.
Calcraft) proceeded upon the usual assumption, that
all reason was on the side of the minority and none's*
the side of the majority, but the Hou. Gentleman was
the less entitled to speak on the subject as be had 141
dom attended to hear them. The Civil List, the
Gentleman must recollect, was voted for the life it
the Sovereign, and therefore, did not admit of sudden
reduction, though no doubt, it was competent for Par-
liament to hold a check over it when aid was applied
for. The Estimates were Li million below those of the
preceding war, and great efforts wen made to redoes'
the expense of the collection of the revenue.

Lord

.0 ' b

...ate, adverting to
....metal side, that the present
nomical as conld he devised,
mates brought forward precious .
property tax, were said, by the Secretary at . sr,
the most moderate that could be proauced ; and yet
When that tax was repealed, Estitnites much more mo-
derate than those " most moderate,'
were almost itn-
mediately laid before the House. An effect quite similar
would, be bad no doubt, ht. produced by a Resolution of
the House to discountenance the present Estimates, by
adopting the amendment—that amendment would how-
ever, he feared, meet the fate that was anticipated from
the present state of the House, for how many placemen
were there to vote as the Minister pleased. He did not
mean to object to the presence in that House of such
place:nen as the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, or the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, or other principal otfi,:ers
of the Government, who, if not in the other House of
Parliament, ought, in his judgment, to have seats in that
House; hut to those Gentlemen who were to be seen be.
hind or about the Treasury Bench, ready to vote accord-
ing to the will of those who occupied that Bench. As
to the language which bad been so much animadverted
upon on the other side, he was glad to hear such lay
guage from the side which he bad the honour to sup.'
port ; for this language, which implied nothing more
tLan this, that the redress of grievances should go based
in ham' with the grant of supplies. That was the len-
guage of the hest men in that House, as well as that of
the "louse itself, in the 17th century, and of every good
period since; and be could not see why such `agelua
age
should net he applauded in the 19:11 century, ht
was said that the country was so much enlightened upon
principles of constitutional justice. With respect to the,
danger of revolution, which appeared to alarm seine
gentlemen ou the other side, their alarm appeared to be
very much misapplied. There was, iso doubt, a revolu-
tion going on, but it was a revolution in property ; and
it was to be apprehended, from the progress of this re-
volution, that the middle classes would soon be swept
away—that indeed there woolsl he no class in the coun-
try but the very rich and the very poor, namely, the
very great capitalists, and those who subsisted upon
them. Yet no measure appeared to he in contensplatioa
for averting such evils; but be was disposed to attribute
the conduct of Government, even extraordinary as it
was, to its utter disacquaintance with the real condition
of the country.
Mr. 111:31E contended the House kid a right to
look at the Civil List when no aid was called for, and
he hoped hsfore a year had passed away, the House
%%mild review the Civil List; for if ever a House of
Commons had neglected its duty, lie thought the pre-
sent House of Commons had done so, in granting so
extravagant a Civil List as that which they bad sanc-
tioned. The 870,0001. voted for the Civil List in the
present reign, was equal to 1,41111,11001. when the
Civil List was first placed on its present footing. He
censured the extravagance of Ministers, and hoped
the Hon. Gentleman would persevere in the amend-
ment be had moved,
Mr. HUSKISSON explained.
The House divided,
For the Amendsueut .. • ........... • • 4O
Against it
Majority in favour of the original motion —l5
When strangers were readmitted the House was in
the Committee of Supply.
Mr. It. WARD moved the follow ing grant :-14,63151.
for tit:. pay of the Civil Officers and Clerks of the
Ordisasice Establishment on Foreign stations.
Mr. HUM E had only to object to this resolution,
that all the establishments bad been nearly doubled
since 1 He described the additions which had
taken place at Malta, Barhadoes, Ceylon, the Cape of
Good Hope, and Heligoland. The Storekeeper at the
last %motioned place had been ordered to be reduced
a year ago, but the order bad not been carried into
effect. Ile received a salary of 2381. and his only
duty was to take charge of the powder there, and to
lire the morning and evening gun. Before we took
possession of that island, it was held by a Serjeant's
party. When it became ours, it was garrisoned with
50 men. The isonsher had been gradually increased
to Ii), and a short time ago he found that 1110 men
were stationed there. It DOW cost the country annu-
ally 10,000 f. which was more than the fee simple of
the whole island. He considered the charge more Heli-
goland the most extravagant uf all, ansl the so,
as the Storekeeper, Mr. Artnstrong, hail passed six
usonths of the last year its England. Ile concluded
by prop sing a reduction of 25 per cost. on the grant,
and accordingly moved as an amendment, that the
sum of 10,9731. should be substituted for the sous
which had originally stood in the resolution.
Mr. WARD ohsetved, that as the Honourable
Member had pronounced the proposition as to Heligo-
land to be the most extravagant of all, he must con-
ceive that sort of denunciation to be an implied eulo-
ginm upon all the other grants proposed. The Hon.
Nlesuber had observed, that all the grants for the se-
veral colonial officers and clerks were doubled in the
estimates on the table, but the fact was, that they
were doubled only on paper, as the several officers
were, upon this advance, deprived of certain perqui-
sites and etnolunsents, which they and their predeces-
sore had received for a series of years. It was, for
instance, the practice of those officers to draw rations
for the subsistence of themselves and their families,
which were paid for at the public expense. But this
practice was now abolished. That abolition must
considerably reduce the revenue of storekeepers, as
well as that of others, and the proposed advance was
but a small compensation for that diminution. As to
Ceylon, it should be considered that if the grant to
that island was trebled the establishments there were
trebled also. Then as to Malta, the grant could not
be deemed excessive, when it was recollected that if
the fortifications of that garrison were in a line, they
wouli extend to 50 miles, while there were no less
than 600 pieces of cannon there. With respect to
Heligoland, nothing was proposed for onr establish-
ment there that was not deemed absolutely necessary,
and as to the remark of the Honourable Gentleman
that there were only a few soldiers in that island
before it came into our possession, that could be deem-1
ed no criterion of its consequence, for Gibraltar had
only 700 soldiers in the garrison at the time it was
originally taken possession of by our forces. The
Honourable Member concluded with deprecating the
Amendment, as every practicable reduction bad been
made in the estimates before they were submitted to
the House.
Mr. BENNET said the Hon. Gentleman had made
it appear because certain persons bad been robbing the
ebuntry for a number of years; that when that robbery
was found out and put down, compensation must be
given. He would toll the lion. Gentleman a story.—
The Magistesees et .Ilidalesez found on one occasion
tht Celdbatk-Gelds prison was beset by the greatest
number of improper visitants that ever blockaded the

k
v i I

those who wished to go into prison to the sitting Me.
gistrate, receiving a tee from each applicant, and the,
such members were daily sent. When this wai foul
out the practice was put an end to hot the clerk claims
compensation alleging that Lis predecessor had enjoyed
the same privilege and emoluments. He appealed to
high authority on the occasion, but the answer glees
to the appellant was, " You sha'n't have compensation.'
Had he belonged to the Ordnance Department, them
stilt of such an application might have been difirrest_
lie then complained of the system acted upon in „1,
colonies—of the provision wade for needy Nehail,.
and of the wanner in which the public ntoney weemm.
away in that House by Pl:lcemen. The House an.l to„
l'outitre ought to be told, that out of 65 perehi:u.
voted on the opposite side of the House, $0 were `.`',.at.
men. The public pocket bad been picked, and thin:,
had transpired within those walls, in the ennrse tt„.
present Session, which any body but that llo:Ise milli
have been ashamed of.
Mr. K. WARD said be should confine himself 01
single observation, for the sake of Gentlemen 0)1 wc:
quite as honest and respectable as any lion. Geminate
opposite. He had neither used the word tohherv,
puted to him by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, nor ley
admitted that ally abuse existed. • The fact was, the
the officers were authorised to receive the rations ..
perquisites by public documeer s, which esitted subs;
ago as the year 1756. Ile could not hot regret that
Honourabl?llentlemen opposite should avail thentsein.
of their privilege, as Members of that House, to liar.
der individuals oho had no means of answering tie
charges which were brought against them.
Mr. 6. lIKN\ET maintained, that if the Aim
drew rations, which they had no right to draw, at tile
public expense, it was in effect a robbery, and the
word was very properly used. If they were authorisei
to do so by warrants from Government, then Choreic.
anent, and not the officers, were the robbers.
Mr. R. IVARD repeated that it was no abler at al,
nasninch as they were fully authorised to receive the

►atim•ns.
Mr. J. SNiall hoped the Honourable Gratleans
opposite would give lime explanation of the combat of
the individuals of whom the flua. :%.lember for
rnleen
lwions re YI:• ausn•
t:ld:nedi uc not i
, that tkduhe'reactbllleea rgbgefeelmi neturviniailml sweeping
eiptert pnb!snai gat
made
Ised:
then repeated the charges he bad made relative Mi.
Pennant, of Sheerness, and others. That Gentlest
possessed a large income, yet lie took away coals at
wood from the public store in violation of the ordenti
the Board of Ordnance. Ile witlued to ask the lie.
Gentleman (Mr. Ward) a question, and he hoped tlist
instead of going to another subject, as he usually
he wssoild give him a direct answer—he wished to kam
whether the store-keeper of Heligoland had been el
during the last year' The establishment at Mein *
cost 11,000/., a sum which ought to be rebated *-
fourth.
Mr. W. SMITH observed, that when tie ape 0
(;0041 Hope was in the possession of the
not cost the Gorernment of Holland a
Now if the Dutch could make their colony
self, though they had to contend agaiust a
time power, surely ii. ought to be inquired
Civil and Military Departments of the I
source of so much expellee to this country
Mr. R. WARD said, it was a fallacy to
Dutch kept the Cape against a superior i
seeing that we had taken it from them.
to the statement of the Honourable
Aberdeen, be begged to observe, that
hall not been suspended from any cow
milt, but merely because that was thu
pending an inquiry into the condo
officers by their superior officers. TI
inquiry was a complete acquittal. I
the officers had converted the wood ti.
but it appeared that they had umisunderstm
of the Board of Ordnance, and coiice
wood was a perquisite which still rem
wa: no ground whatever fur a charge
Some irregular appropriations had
and they arose from very ridiculous
to he ascribed to any thing rather thai
dishonesty So much fur Sheerness,
to Fevershani, charges had certain!;
against the Storekeeper. amounting
for having purloined timber and other
and for returning false vouchers.
Member complained that no inquiry
for six months, bat if be haul been
respondence which took place previot,
he would have found his (Mr. R. W
been sufficiently filled up.
snored, that because the charges
clerk was dismissed ; he Mr. (Ward;
that there was not a Member in that
dividual in the country who could bet
ons a charge : and if the Hon. Or
were so constructed as to come to sot
lie (Mr. W.) would not consent to eum
nication with such a mind.—(A lam
Gent. had been totally misinformed,
evidence was worse than he had evei
court of justice. With regard to the
vouchers, the acts were these; there •
of the worktuen employed in the I Irdi
the vear,with the character and des..r
son annexed to his name. I.;pon tun
establishment, the pay of the Warder,
shillings and sixpence a Jar. was
!logs and four-pence a day, due pay
The storekeeper haul neglected to t
" warder" opposite his name, after he
sgerroi putnido
ofo of
thee labouringeharge
that the whole charge was false, groum
nant, and the Master-Oeneral had
vised to dismiss the man who made
Tinhaen , snit
Mr. HUME said, that the Hon.
witted that there was pilfering of woad.
defended it was neither more nor
encouragement to all other ptlferer'.
Mr. NARKS thought that sufficient
been paid to what fell from the Hunuum
Norwich, re)ative to the Cape of trand
Member then Pole sow obserroloos upon the

I
Ito.
i .
U.
t
1 •
1 ;
' il
\

imrpose of adding these w
u•tiuu to the said Committee,
t.itlcration the present distil
they proceed to enforce a
economy, as far as the
iuut injury to the substanti.

„ ..
to the stateornts on the gates of a jail, and all came with Ilagiatrates' orders
.nt Estimates were as eco- to see their friends ‘, ho were confine& On enquirir;
observed, that the Esti- how chi:, happened, it appeared that there was a cleric
-
boos to the repeal of the at on, of the pol:re offices, who handed the names 0:
,0 Si*Eretarr at War, to be those who wished to to into prison to the sittitn,, M.

IC Datth, ,
a siegle Ober,
luny support
pet
i`
a superior won-
NI into, why ti tin
e Cape wen t a p
try.
to argue that&
maritime poen ar
1. With af
le Member it t A
hat the
inviction of to
lie usual coo
duct of idol
'he result di
It was tree it
to their meow.
lerstood dos wit
iceived that tit 1
tutained. Tien
e of per ulatios.-- 1
been commit*,
causes, het or
tan to the soorrO
, and with
lv been prof
almost to fella
er public proper
The bloomy*
r had taken #
aware of the
aas to the isgail.
Ward's) time
01
Hon. Maier Si'
wen pro
was was ro'
it House, or am it
ielieve so roe!
Gentleman's mini 4
rich a conduit- w
tiiter into cools
langh.)—The
I, be a persoo*lo
er seen gives is
.he charge of 410
re were three 10
Irdnance printea
..riptiuu of esti r
lie reiluctiou of 61
er, *who recired tito
reduced to mesh.'
of a labouring wg.
strike out the el'
Ise came under tit°.
td this was tits n•
~,missioners repos.:
roundless, aod 04;
accordingly beet
e it.
si'
Gentleman had
wood, and 00_1,
less thin holding""
os, haio
tient attention
tuoi Fed us
Hope
1
o n I
,b e 11 con
gm