The Statesman.
London, England, 1815-05-02 00:00:00

rivn sorATEsmAg.

The SPEAKER said, that in all cases where the
objects of a Bill had not been properly explained to,
" or understood by the louse, the Introducer had the
option of withdrawing it, in whatever stage it might
be, and bringing in another, consonant with his own
views, and in an intelligible shape.
Mr. Serjeant BEST then agreed to withdraw the
present Bill, and the order for the Committee was
discharged.
Leave was then given to bring in a Bill in tt per-
fect form.

PETITION OF THE LIVERY OV LONDON.
Sir W. CURTIS said, he held in his hand a Peti-
tion purporting to be from " the Lord Mayor, Al-
dermen, arid Livery of London, in Common Hall as.
sembled." He could not help viewing this Petition
as one of a most extraordinary nature, yet knowing
that it was couched in respectful language, he felt
himself bound to offer it for the reception of the
House. He hoped the House would excuse him,
however, if he stated that there was not one senti-
ment which it contained, which was in accordance
with his own feeling. The Petition adverted to a
variety of matters—there was a reference to a Tax
Bill then before the House, however, which he
thought, independent of other objections, would
operate as an inducement to the House to reject it,
inasmuch as he understood it was contrary to the
forms of the House, to admit such Petitions. With
the permission of the House, however, he would read
that part of the Petition to which he alluded.
The SPEAKER said, if the Honourable Baronet
was desirous of making fuller explanation, he might ;
but if he was conscious that the Petition was im-
proper, perhaps that step would be scarcely neces-
sary.
Sir WM. CURTIS wished the House to judge of
its impropriety. The Hon. Baronet then read the
last paragraph of the Petition, which alluded to the
proposed re-establishment of that inquisitorial mea-
sure, the Income Tax, notwithstanding the pledge
which had been given of its abandonment, and called
'pop the House to interpose and stop the career of
that weak, rash, and infatuated Administration, by
which the happiness and vital interests of the country
were about to be finally sacrificed.
The SPEAKER said, the House would judge
from the passage which had been read, whether the
Petition was for or otainst the Income Tax.—
[Laughter.]
The question being put for bringing up the Peti-
tion—
The CHANCELLOR of the E;CHEQUER
said, he thought the House had ;heard enough to in-
duce them to rject the Petition.
Mr. HORNER saw nothing in the Petition which
could warrant the House in refusing to receive it.—
It had come from a most -
duals, and from what he
fectly decorous in its lane,
referred to the Income
incidental to the opinion
and infatuated conduct of
country into a war withi
obtain peace.
Mr. BATHURST said, ,
az preastd a o op; ni on- -hostlio
vernment, he should have -
received. It was clear,
referred to the Income Ti
before the House, and in
It could not be received
of the House.

Sir JOHN NEWPOR
Petition in question, either
fringed any rule of the Ht.
timid mode of stating the
to that House was by Per
stated many grievances,
said one word of the Int
connected with the condor
sters, of whose incapacity
in harsh, and, no doubt, gal
Mr. Serjeant BEST sail?
the Petition in question di
come Tax Bill before the 1
Majesty's Ministers might
it into a law. It was not
much objected, as to two
the Petition, which be cot
gross and infamous libels
tution, and the Country,
to Parliament.
Mr. WHITBREAD dens
thing libellous in the Nati'
sistent with the forms of ti
Mr. PEEL(: considered
fixity commented upon, at
Tax Bill then hefore the 11,

Mr. TI ERN EY agreed
against a new tai, under
House, that it ought not tf
however, that such was tin
ask the Worthy Alderman
put it into his hands had sai
the Property Tax ?
Sir wm.cuirris.—"
Mr. WALLACE opposo
tition.

Mr. BARING thought
road at the table, in order
able to form their judgmeni
Lord COMPTON also
to be read.

Mr. W. SMITH thougi,
Petition which should preal
Mr. PONSONBY said,
objected to upon such a
against the present Petition,
ing against the Property
thought it was much wiser
received.

Mr. 11. SUMNER agreed
Petition being brought up, "
might judge of its real me
The SPEAKER always
rule of the house, that
sented against any fax int►
Means of the year, that ii
The Petition was then b.
Sir WM. CURTIS moved
table.

The CHANCELLOR
said, that now the House
read; they could form their

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not Petitioh against the Proprty Tax. The Petition manner a Petition for Parliamentary Reform could
went through a vast variety of matter, but it ap. be drawn, without stating what the Petitioners corn:
peered to him evident that the ',dudes' complaint plained of in the present mode of Representation.
was against the war and the Property Tax. if the He then read frost the Journals some passages front
House considered it in that light, although he Was a Petition which had been received on this subject,
ready to open aS wide a door as possible to Petitions, which appeared to him infinitely stronger.
yet he thought that the Houle must adhere to its esti- Mr. FORBES said, the only (Meg to be regretted
blished rules. upon this occasion was, that there should have neon
Mr. ABERCROMBIE thought that this Petition so much discussion. Had the Petition been received
contained two distinct propositioas. The first was a quietly, and laid upon the table, lie had no doubt but
sort of apology fur coming to that House after the the Petitioners would have been extremely disap-
little attention that had lately been paid to Petitions. pointed.
Upon this point he must say, that he believed that After some observations from Mr. BARING and
the inattention which had been evinced in the course Mr. BATHURST, the House divided :
of the present Session, not only to the'Petitions of the Io (,your of the Petition !yin.; ou the table
City of London, but to the Petitions of the great As" 11$ it
body of the people of this country, was altogether Maj..rit;
FOREIGN RELATIONS.
unprecedented in the annals of Parliament. Upon Mr. HORNER rose for the purpose of putting
the other point, it appeared as if it was the disposi-
question to the Noble Lord opposite, with reference
tion of the House to construe their rules as strictly to a notic . he had given of a motion on the subject
as possible against the Petitioners. The whole of of the relations subsisting between the Government
the Petition was an argument against the conduct of of this country and that of Naples. As he cons
Ministers, in plunging the country into a war, which ceived the transactions between the two Governments
appeared to the Petitioners unnecessary and impro- to be concluded, he thought It was necessary the
per, at least before the experiment of negotiation House should be fully informed respecting them.—
had been tried. The fact respecting the renewal of Since he had given the notice, however, he had
the Income 'fax was only stated incidentally, and as heard, that Negociations were still petalitog t and, as
a consequence of that conduct of Ministers of which he had no whit to embarrass the proceedings of his
they complained. . Majesty's Ministers, he should be glad to know,
Mr. Serjeant BEST opposed the receiving the Pe- whether any Negotiations mere, in fact, in progress ?
tition, on what he conceived. to be much higher If he received an answer in the affirmative, he would,
grounds than those suggested by the Hon. Baronet.— if necessary, postpone his notice.
Ile should pot it to the House, whether they would Lord CASTLEREAGH thanked the Learned
submit to be told by any Petitioners, that they were Gentleman for the candour he had manifested ;
not in the habit of listening to Petitions from the but he was not aware of any thing that could ope-
people. Every body who was at all in the habit of 'rate as a bar to his bringing forward his motion to,.
attending the House, and witnessing its proceedings, morrow.
must know that this was a most false and infamous j INSOLVENT DEBTORS.
misrepresentation. It was well known, that as to Mr. BENNETT wished to know, from the Noble
the particular point, the Income Tax, the House had tort!, or any other of his Majesty's Ministers, whe.
in course of the present Session received a vast num- they any determination had yet been come to, with
ber of Petitions, but under other circumstances, and respect to the appointment of a person to fill the si-
when such Petitions could be received without vin. tuation of Judge of the Insolvent Debtors' Court,
lating their established rules and usages. Could it lately held by Mr. Serjeant Palmer ? Ile had receiv.
be said that the House then paid no attention to those ed a letter from a person confined for debt, in the
Petitions, or could it be denied that those Petitions King's Bench, which informed him, that many indi-
had then a considerable influence? An Honourable viduals were at present detained in that prison, in
Gentleman had asked, was it decent for the House consequence of the office of Judge of the &solvent
to reject the Petition of the City of London, on Debtors' Court being vacant.
such ground as had been suggested ? lie should ask, Lord CASTLEREAGH could not give any seas.
was it decent in the City of London to talk to that factory answer on this subject. Great difficulty
House of the corrupt state of the representatioti ? was originally found in selecting a proper person foe
If such language had come from a small obscure place the situation ; and, he suposed, the difficulty
in the country, he should not by any means feel so still existed, which would at once account for the
strong an objection, as from its coming from the City delay.
of London. If it was stated, that Petitions from so Mr. WILBERFORCE said, considerable hat&
respectable a body as the City of London were en- ship had been sustained by debtors, iu consequence

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e tar mincing tu reixivr ri.— resperrauie a uouy as sue Lorry or bonuon were en- any 1141 U UCCII DUMUIIIIGIJ uy nonuse, 1.4 k.Ult•ol:IUVIIIAT
respectable body of indivi- titled to peculiar attention, then he would say, that of the decease of Mr. Serpent Palmer. They sere
e had discovered, was per- it became that body to be attentive to use proper and obliged to give fresh notices, and were subjected to .
iguage. lie denied that it decent language in their Petitions. He wished dis- a variety of expences. •
Tas Bill any more than as tinctly to express that his reason for voting for the PROPERTY TAX
an expressed of the weak rejection of the Petition, was not that it was a Peti- , The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
of Ministers in plunging the Lion against a Money Bill, but because he conceived, moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving
shout first endeavouring to that in its language it was a gross insult to the [louse, itself into a Committee on the Property Tax.
Sir F. BURDETT saw nothing in the language of Gen. GASCOIGNE rose, in pursuance of his
1, that if the Petition merely this Petition that was a bit stronger than had been notice, to move that an instruction be given to the
sstile to his Majesty's Go- aced in many Petitions which had been received bY Committee, to amend the Bill, hy exempting from
'e no objection to its beteg that House. As to the charges which it containA I" ()Ml6' military and "'"`"I officers, On foreign
however, that it distinctly against the system of representation by which the service. The individuals whom it wes the object of
NZ eo nomine, as it stood House was now constituted, he apprehended the re- his motion terelieve, ought, be conceived, iii pre.
3 that persuasion he thought jection of the Petition would have rather the effect Terence to any other class of persons, to be ea.
Consistently with the forms of impressing those opinions more generally on the elnPted from the operation of the Property Tax ;
minds of the people out of doors. • and he would not have brought forward a proposi-
i
ELT did not think that the i titan for that purpose if he did not feel, in
pp, Mr. GRENFELL opposed the receiving of the
corn-
er in form or substance, in- ,
intended as an insult to that Petition,House as he conceived that the language of it was lm'n, he believed, with every Gentleman who heard
.
louse. The only constitu-. him' and that it was a case which merited the deepest
.
Ihe grievances of the public lattention. He should divide the military service
Mr. LYTTLET rejectionON thought that if the
'etition. This Petition had I into two parts—the active service in the field, and
but he denied that it had of this Petition upon those grounds should be drawn the colonial service in garrisons abroad. Now, . •
into a precedent, it would exclude many other Peti- .
ncnme Tax, save what waslet the House look to the situation of the officer,
lions that the subjects of this countrys
ti
uct of his Majesty's Mini. had a right to : when he is sent out on foreign service—perhaps to 41
ty and misconduct it spoke present to the House. ! places where the tax falls on him with accumulated \
galling terms. : Mr. WORTLEY thought it ought not to be re- ' weight, in consequence of the rate of exchange k-
id, there was no doubt but , jetted. He had seen other Petitions received which ' ing against this country. A Captain going abroad
list inctly referred to the In- i were fully as strong in their language. I has an allowance of 221.-1 Subaltern 81. 15s. This
House, and prayed that his Mr. LOCKHART was for its rejection. He was by ne means adequate to the expences which
t not be permitted to pass thought it was unquestionably an insult to the these individuals incurred. Out of this small sti-
tto this however, that he so House, to tell them that they were grossly inetten. pend, they were under the necessity of paying their
a lines in the beginning of : tire to their duty, and that they had no sympathy mess-money, and also of providing themselves with
moidered one of the most 1 with the people. They were told also in this Peti- camp-equipage and clothes. But, the fact was,
on the House, the Coneti.ition, that their conduct had rendered the right of that a Subaltern could not take the field under art
, that had ever beets offered' petitioning nugatory. If this language was not in- expence of 381. and a Captain of SO?. This difri-
isuiting to the House, he did not know what could be cutty was stated to Government ; and it was agreed
denied that there was any considered as an insult. The Livery of London to tallow officers going abroad, two months pay
Ilion, or any thing iucon- had appeared to arrogate a sort of right to legislate its advance. But, whets they arrived at their
the House to receive. Ito public opinion its this country. He was sorry, place of destination, how were they situated? It ,
.d that the Petition substan- ; however, to observe of late, that sentiments he- was a notorious fact, that for six months afterwards,
and objected to the Income' quently emanated from that Body, not only hostile they rarely received a farthing. The pay of the
. .
House. Ito the Representatives of the People in Parliament, troops on the Peninsula, was frequently from four
d that if this was a Petition l but extremely dangerous to the Constitution. to six months in arrear. And, when the Officers on ..
ar the consideration of the i Alderman ATKINS believed that the sentiments that service were obliged to purchase a horse. in.
to be received. He denied, stated in that Petition were only the sentiments of a stead of getting one for 181. the sum allowed, they
lie case, and he would even I few of the Liverymen, and he was convinced that were obliged to pay a most extravagant price. Evert
a (Curtis) if those who had , the great majority of the Livery highly disapproved a mule could not be procured for less than one or
said it was a Petition against ,of them. Believing that they were but the senti- two hundred dollars. They were compelled to boy
meats of a few, he hoped that the House would not at this extravagant rate, or else to leave their bag.
' Certainly." think it necessary to its dignity to reject it. gage behind them. The course of exchange, which
wed the reception of the Pe- , Alderman C. SMITH drew a very different con. was even now 25 per cent. against this country,
1 clusion from that which the Hon. Alderman who also operated to the disadvantage of Officers on In..
t the Petition ought to be spoke last had drawn. He thought that this was a reign service. It might be said, that their pay
r that the (louse might be reason for rejecting it. : was transmitted to them, as if exchange was at
rust upon it. Mr. PRESTON was for receiving the Petition. ' par—but it mast be allowed, that the existence
D thought the Petition ought Mr. SUMNER. was for rejecting it, on the ground of an unfavourable state, woisid have. a very great
, that it was insulting to the House. 41s to the Yeti- effect in raising the price of every species of neces.
;ht there was nothing in the lions on the Cora Bill, the City of London should easy. As the pay of Officers ivas net 'adequate to
event its being brought up. I recollect that they had prophecied that the immediate meet their expences, they wet obliged to call on
1, he never knew a Petition , effect of passing that Bill woult: be to raise the price their friends for assistance; ' Here, in the first
s ground as that adduced of corn to SOs. a quarter. As their prophecy had place, they lost, by the unfavathaside state of the
en, namely, that of its he- turned out to be completely unfounded, they might exchange, at least 25 per cestrilytich, added to
Tax by implication. Ile ; suppose that upon that point the judgment of the 10 per cent. Income Tax, for• gross loss of
r that the Petition should be j House was at least as good as theirs. An Hon. 35 per cent. on every hundred itwitistds drawn by
i Alderman (Alderman Atkins) had said, that the sen- them from this country. The ti4len he should
reed in the propriety of the j timents of this Petition were only the sentiments of submit to the House, was founded oat-Parliamentary'
p, in order that the House ! a few of the Liverymen. He should then ask, where Papers. In 1688 and 1695, when tisk country wits
twits. - were the many ?—.Were they piesent, or were they called on to contribute the means olcarry Lig on
rs understood it to be the! not present ?—lf they were absent, why were they the war under William and Mary, a tax was pro.
where a Petition was pre- absent—and if they were present, why did they not posed, which came as near as possible {o- As
traduced in the Ways and express their sentiments by their votes?--If those Property Tax. It applied to landed propeettsr-: .
it should be rejected. were really the sentiments of a few of the Livery, to profits and income of almost every descriptioe,—
brought up and read. he should like see their signatures, that he might There was but one exemption from the cigffs'Oon of
ved that it should lie on the know who they ware, and what was their situation in this tax—and that was, the pay of (:freers in the
s
life. nary and army. Here it would he proper far the
1. of the EXCHEQUER Mr. W. SMITH observed, that if what had been (louse to consider what the pay of military (Mfrs .
ise had heard the Petition stated about the Representation was to be considered was in the year 1695. The pay of a Lieutetimt.t.
ieir judgment whether it did au insult to the House, he did not knew in what Colonel wes2then 17s. per. diem—the very same sum
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