The Statesman.
London, England, 1822-06-27 00:00:00

THE .STATESMAN..

Hoes. sail Liveried Motions Compinised. The (40s•
tad Leonid (tentlessas thought the House ought to
interfere to take away one branch of the Court, which.
in his judgment, instead of-ridding the busier', con-
tributed to the delay.
.1t had been 'mid that the Lon'
Cheapener was more a Stemmas thus a Lawyer, and
was frequently withdrawn from the Conn of Utaneeiry
to attend Csbinet• Councils. He therefore begged to
[Jay, that the occasions on which the Lord Chancellor
was so called away, were extremely rare, and the time
thee taken from Chancery was hardly worthy a mo.,
mest' s consideration. With respect to the exertions
nede by the Lord Chancellor himself, he begged to any,'
that few laden had so little observed what were called
holidays as he had. Such days he frequently devoted
not to the general hasieess of the Coon, bat to the;
hearing of any particular case that might press on him.
To judge of what he did, it would he hotter if the a‘
nation of the Hone were directed to the Rtterde Mt i
the table. From these it would appear that there was
.little
appeal. Ho believed it would be found that se cause
stood for a bearing which had been set down antairieg.
to the last term. He believed such to be the fact. VIP
appeals from the Vice Chancellor's Court, were
Jerald. in poise of numbers, but not more soma
might be expected from the sonsher of !eases there
disposed of. Bat this it was oemplaieed, introduced II
new practice is appeals on motion. It was, how
be remembered, that hearing thee* appeals, in
many of the ceases themselves were heard and disponi!
of; and, after all, these appeals were in fart BOWS
than re-hearings of the cause which die Skit.' would '
aright to demand, if Os case bad been disposed of
Lord Chancellor himself. The Hoe. and Learne4
bad made a comparison between the business die
of be the Lord Chancellor and the Vice-Chancellor, a
put it as it the former bad sat at home at his eau sine,
the appointment( of the Vice-Chancellor. Bat it should
be recollected in the first instance that the LoniChash
r eallor beard Appeals in the House of Lords three dare
is the week. Thin, of coarse, left him but half the tine
for the Court of Chancery, which the Vice.Chancellse
could give to his Court, and thea it was well km's*
that most of the cans brought before the Lord Chemed+
for were argued at F rest length, while many of dm.
taken before the lice-Chancellor were not litigated.'
He would state shat the Lord Chancellor had dose in
1821. He had disposed of 410 motions. 8 causes, 6 ex-
ceptions (the majority of the,motions it shoal& be stated
were causes), 5 pleas and demurrers, 57 partnerships.,
1113 bankrupt aid, 246 lunatic petitions, sad ie all 899
different matter...had tome before him. le 1820 the
number was stiU greeter, being 1015„ and is 1819 it was
1111. The Learned Gentlemen referred to 1814. HI 1
(the Attorneptieseral)' dill not wish to avoid that year,
but he had sot the returns at hand. In that year he
believed the ',melees were more numerous, and that it
somber of baaknupt petitions considerably greater Indi
bees disposed of. What he had stated must prove tbal
the Lord Chancellor had not withdrawn himself fru.;
the latialllSS, of Chancery on the appointment of a Vice-
Chancellor. He was much surprised to hear it said that
the appolatmest of a Vice-Chancellor had not teadedi
to the greater dispatch of basis's& The number of
appeals dirpeeed of in the Hoses of Lords is the Me
years before the appointment of a Vio.Chancellor ems.
11$. In the tea years subsequent to his appoistmestldse
ten years was sot yet completed). the somber dlepsead'
of was fear hundred and fifty-one. The Leaned less-,
timings referred to the few appeals disposed of is 18211•-:-
It was to be remembered how itnponant the subjects.
brought forward in that year. The. Qeeensktry. Hem'
Bench, and Roxburgh cases, were thee under' topsider-
ation t and also the 'titrathinue Peen**. The appeals
front Scott...id took up much time, and be agreed with,
he Hon. Gentleman, that if these isoutioned, each as
_gory had been of late, some particular measure with eel
sect to them might be noceasary. Witt. -respect to•loo-
static Petitions, toere was Os sneer. la the Cassis there
;Was no arrear; and in the Bankrupt Petitions there was
se arrear. It was only with respect to the Appeals that.
say arrear was to be complained of. The question now
before the house was this :—Had such a cue bees wade
nut as called for interference on their part ? He
thus-•ght no such cue bad been made out Last year
the Learned tilentleman hail suhtnitted a plan to the
house different from that which he now offered, and he
expected future years would produce new plans from the
same quarter. Ile thought he would do better to bring
It forward in a regular form at once, than to go on thus
from year to year, varying in his suggestions. Last
year the Learned Genilewan proposed that the Lord
Chancellor should not sit in Chancery at all, except on
very special occasions. This plan not hawing wee with
the approbation of the house, he now wished to get rid
of the 'Vice-Chancellor, whose assistance had greatly di-
minished the f business. The house had before
them the business which had been disposed of by the
Lord Chancellor. He knew that complaints had been
raised against that Noble and Learned Earl, on accusal
of delay. It was not for him to apologise for the con-
duct of the Lord Chancellor, but it was well known to
every one who practised in that Court. that the delay
grew out of anxiety to avoid doing injustice to his de-
cisions, and he concurred with the Noble Earl, in think-
ing that an incorrect decision would be productive of
more inconvenience titan resulted even trims delay.—
Upon the whole, as he was of opinion that no csse laud
been made out fur interfering with the Court of Chan-
cery, he for one should give his opposition to the motion
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Mr. WILLIAMS said nothing could Ise more certain
than that no disrespect bad been intended towards the
Lord Chancellor in bringing this-subject forward. He
should not add to the authorised panegyrics which had
been pronounced 011 that very learned personage : first,
because it was unnecessary; sod, secondly, became
when he had most frequent opportunities of witnessing
the exertions of his talents hie had the pain to see him is
that most ambigions situation, in which he united the
• • ncilable characters of prosecutor and judge. bla,
proceeded to compare the proceedings in the Court of
Chancery. and in the Vice-Chancellor's Court. In the
latter, of late years, the bankrupt petitions disposed of
were about two to one, es compared with the numberde-
cided upon in the other Court, while the tenses decided
by the Vice-Chancellor were in the proportion of ten to
one. The establishment of the Vice-Chancellor's Coen
had introduced an injurious practice, which had not be-
fore
been known in the appeals on motions. The resell
of this was, that there were GI appeals at thi•tuumeee.
He should most decidedly vote for the motiou of his
Hon. Friend.
Mr. H. TWISS said, that all the reasons now advanc-
ed against the Vice-Chancellor's Bill had been antici-
pated at the time 1111011 that Bill was first brought for-
ward, but which were not then cosiaiiiered powerful
enough to prevent the house from adopting it. He ron•
tended that it wits f.lse ice erenment to in% that by liir
return before them, the Lord Chancellor hail only dis-
posed of 53 tallllllll In a yelor. There were other matters
which might properly he called causes. Since the co-c
Lion of the Vire-Chanrellor's Coutt, the entire number
of matters disposed of by the Lord ClMlleellOr was
11,3911. and those disposed of before the Vice-CliAtivel-
lor, 17,b111. i;pon the first day of the present year there
remained in
mutters; and in that of the Lord-Cliartertlor's, 111. 01
these, the number of closes amounted to the overwhelm-
ing multitude at two. The appointment et the Vice-
Chancellor's Ceiba hail reauceil the aree.ir tot tames Its
ten than ball. He therefore 1,4 W no reason for carry,
lag this restless activity of chance, so pinch the rage u 1
the day, is:o the highest courts of law in the realm.—

(Illear)-11Y i great judge they wire Dot ;sly to look at
the number et causes dismissed within a year ; they
were to Josh also to the, ff-ct of his judgments in the
way of precedent upon the (mare administration of the
laws.—(Hear, hear.)—He would venture to say, that
whelk the decisions of the present Lord High Chest-eh
for were coesulted by future lawyers, they would be
fogad to carry will. them commentaries upon the ques-
tions which they embraced that would remelts the great-
est osonoments if legal learning and of legal eaderstaind-
1111F—(Cheers.)-11e confessed that there was one of the
Coerces of complaint wlsich undoubtedly did exist. Tote
very high confidence and veneration with which the
Nuetry looked up to the talents of the present holder of
Act tireat Seal induced a general wish to have his judg-
westupon all CRUM sad from that feeling there was
unquestionably a larger proportion of Appeals. Tbst
was an evil of such a nature, that he earnestly hoped it
would be long,, very long, before it was removed.—
(Hear, bear.)
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR replied, and the House di-
vide*.
Per the Motion, 51 ;—Against it, 1119;—Majority
agsisst it. 57.

IMION BILL.

CRERVET rose to submit his motion to the
hoes. upon the subject of the Bill of 1817, for granting
Pensions to State Officers, which was brought in by the
Hoe. Member for Corte Castle. After referring to wine-
thing which had fallen from the Noble Marquess or
,posite relative to this subject upon a former nonunion,
'he stated that be was so sansfied of the uoparliamestery
nature and the iniquity of the Bill, that he should we-
lds!, divide the hoses upon it on the present occasion.
Re *rood with the Noble Lord, that he was sot 'dirty
any his motion, but be felt that his allies were
ase•pahlic opinion, and the publicity of their de.
belie, and he should, therefore, let the country see
what the true character of this Bill was. With
this view he should not now move its repeal, but place
npon the Journals a set of resolutions, declaring his
sentiments upon the whole business. n. first reso-
lution was, that it appeared to the house, that by an Act
of the fifty-armed) year of his late Majesty, a sum of
forty-two thousand pounds per annum was charged in
perpetuity upon the Consolidated Fund for the• payment
of pensions to particular persons bolding particular
offices in the state. The resolution went on to describe
the ministers and officers entitled to these pensions by
the Act of Parliament, after a service of two years. Our
Chief Justices were aot entitled to pensions until they
had served fifteen years. Bat these which were made
by the persons for themselves were to become doe after
a service of two years. The second aid third resolutions
were declaratory of the right of the Crown to reward
meritorious officers, sod the Infriagement of that right
by the ietroductioa of the above Bill upon the recom-
mendation of a Select Committee, composed of the per-
sons themselves. This Select Committee was appointed
in 1817, a time of great public distress, to examine into
the state of the Finances with a view to relieve the ow•
pie of some of their henbane. Its first Report created
these new pensioners, and left the Crown nothing hut
its Veto in the last resort, Instead of its right to past
each passion. Upon • late ecessioa wises a motion
was made upon the subject doer Ambassadors at Fo-
reign Courts, the Noble Marquess refused a Committee,
mid said be would never set his foot late one, because it
would disvigour the Monarchy. Bonsai it would dis-
vigour the Menarchy—(A laugh.) Disvigoared the
Monarchy it was; a term betortainly never should have
made use of himself.—(A laugh.) But be would tell
the Noble Lord that this Act had not only disvigoured
the Monarchy, bat disgraced that house and defrauded
the public. Tfie wet resolution went to affirm that
there was No precedent for such a measure. in 1;52,
when the King sent a message to the house to make an
arrangement for hie income, aid k••• up his existing
rights, there was nothing said of soy pensions for his
Ministers. The debt too was then 200,000,1/001., and
sow it was become 000,000,0004 the Ministers and the'
Soar Member for Corfe Castle came down to maks this
list of pensions fur themselves. He did not mean to
move the repeal of this Act at present, bet the reale-
tions pledged the hove* to take the matter into its con-
sideration early in the meet Session. The fifth resolu-
tion declared this to be a compact between the pensioa-
era and the public, by which the latter had to pay them
this money without any compensation. The ilunourable,
Member for Code Castle bad told him, that he voted
for a similar Bill to this in the year 1812. Ile found
this to be tree, and he had the more reason to be
ashamed of it, now he found such a monstrous abuse of
the principle. The relief afforded by this measure
only extended to the abolition of two offices in Eng-
land, whose salaries amounted to SRN. In Scotland
and Ireland there were other offices which bad fallci
in, and the entire saving was 4,60`21. Ws. Upon the
3410/. saved in England Load Sidinouth bad received •
pension of 3,011 W. The sixth resolution went to record
these facts. His °Nei t was to place this upon the Jour-
nals, iu order to let the people see the nature of their
contract with the pensioners. The seventh resolution
was declaratory of the opinion of the House, that if the
offices before alluded to hail become vacant without the
existence of the Bill, anti the Crown could bare had
the appointments, it would not hare given the pension
of 3,0001. to Lord Viscount Sidmouth. It appeared
that iu Lord Si:lmonth was in office, and then lie
made his son Clerk of the Pens with a salary of
Not contented with this the Noble Lord for some sup-i
posed loss which he might hereafter sustain, was to te•
ceive another pension of 3,01101. There certainly never
was a more romantic situation than that in which Lord
Silmouth stood. Ile did not mean to go out of kis way
to say any thing disrespectful of Lord Sidmoistle, but
be apprehended that lie o 0u,.1 not till a more iinportaut
part to history than some of his predecessors iu office.
For instance, he would say ford Chatham; and that
Noble Lord had but one pension from the King. He
41 not see, therefore, why Lord Sidemoth WWI to have
two. 'floe last resolution stated the opinion of the
House, that the interference of a Committee of that
House with the granting of :embers was an interfer-
POCC with the just prerogative of the Crown, an abuse
of the power entwined to them by the Cootitution, soil
a heavy grievance to the people. Ile would again say
that his object wirs to put these farts before the public,
and sooner or later that Bill would he removed bum
the Statute Book. He concluded by moving the tirst
Resolution.
The Resolution bring put from the Chair,
Mr. BANK RS sail, he was not sorry the lion. Mem-
ber had brought the subject before the house, heratiar it
would give him an opportunity of explaining the views
of the Committee which reemumendel the Bill. The
principle of the Bill was to abolish every office without
duty. The Hon. Gentleman said, the priori pie was nor
one %thief, ought to lie snip 'rte.!, anti that it w a de.
;torture from theprinciple of lir. Burke's hat
great wan held that it would not lie itijitrims to the
Constitution, it the government were allow eil to tempt
great talent.' into the publics wviee. he the means of
giving certain oitces ass remutieratlon. The Committee
of ebielt lie was Chairmaii, when they co.i.idereil the
measure then In-fore the I e, were %Olin:: to alopt
the principle which allowed sinecures to he •oveo for
public services. but they found it had hems al. ised, and
they could not concur with Mr. Burke in his view 01
the subject. They resolved to abolish sinecitres, and
they recominenle.l the Sovereign to rewar:l service-
u ills pensions rather than oftiees. It was iwpossihle hr
cottil support the motion. It the Bill was repealea
matters would return to what they were before. IN time
repeal of the Bill sinecures must t crive. The offi:ts tt•

t.

Wood in Mr. norhe's Bill had been abolished ; but
with respect to offices held for life, that was a species of
nperty which could cot be set at nought. Mach had
said with respect to a pension granted to hit Nike
Friend, but be would appeal to the house ode-
ther. as conduct of his Noble Friend, while he

fined the Chair of that house, was not admired.
—He was convinced, no man ever received more
respect sad gratitude fee public services. It was bat
reasonable to reward the Noble Lord for a loug end hi,
billions politic life.--(hear.)—lie could not consist to
repeal the Bill, sad thereby deprive the Crows 111 the
prerogative of remoaerating public men. The best per.
repave of the Crown was that which made them amber,
of the benefits conferred on meritorious public 'errant..
If ever they took that prerogatire out of the hands ef
the Crown it would not only be unconstitutional, bet
oceasioa a burden MOT! Oarrlrsa than the ponsiona. n,.
Hom'llleattwr concluded bvpoving. as MI menthe's:,
that the house proceed to the other orders of the der.
Mr. H. 41. BENNET supported the 'motion,
jaded to the Bill. on the groom! that it had ran ak.
swered theespectation of the public. Instead of being.
the efabolishing sinecures, it had enabled 31i.
Meters to reward their political adherents. With retprd
to the Noble Lord who had been Secretary for the Hoc,
Department, he was no more fit to be 31inistar of are
country. than one ot the door-keepers. The Hsu.
bee also brought in the Hill had been a great reformer
is small things, became little sariag had been the rend:
of his labouss.
Mr. HAHNE.% in explanation, said, there was t paper
en the table, which painted oat a saving produced tattle
public by himself and others, which eaceeeded any re.
for. made by the Hoe. Oeutletnae and all his trienala.
Itlist the mese time proved the falsehood otitis asserien.
, The Goomodttee in which he once sat had been tke
some of savieg to the country more than 200,0004
Mr. az.NNE:r said. in reply. be paid back the full
complimisat paid by the Hoe. Member is the term false-
, hoed.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY could not avoid
repelling with indignation some of the statements he
bed beard from the Hon. Dentlemon who intredacol
motion and the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury. lie had
never listened in an assembly of Englishmen is senti-
ments so revolting to the g I feeling of the h..se.
Toe Hon. Member *aid he could only Gad disgust aid
corroptios in the operation of the Bill. Mr. Burke bad
recommended the retention of offices as the means of re-
warding merit, Lett it seemed those others had bee.
abased is the application, anti the Bill which the beam
was called upon to repeal, was introduced. The Hes.
Member had represented the Bill u accomplishing all
the work of corruption, and then had lavished all the
malevoleoce of bis mind against his Noble Friend the
late Secretary of State. The Noble Marquees was sot
surprised the Hon. Member would his No-
ble Friend for his conseiestionf service to the metre.
During the most difficult period of our history that No-
ble Lord protected the country and summated the
danger. He knew his Noble Friend never mild be for-
given by the lion. Gentleman, because he made them
feel what the hand of Government was able to do. His
Noble Friend had been meotioned in the most &wast-
ing m , and treated worse than a doer-keeper el the
bows*. The Hon. Member must hare known hie Noble
Friend did not leave the ebair from any wish of his own.
He was induced to take a part in the tieverosseat from
a seam of public duty. His Noble Friend bad bees
compared with Pitt and Fox, hot it was no disparage-
ment not to rise to the talents of those great statuoien;
but his Noble Friend had given splendid pr of his
great ability. The question of the peace of. Andel..
and the subsequent triumph of the country might be at-
tributed to the wise measures of his Noble Freud. The
very year after the peace of Atoka* he provided twelve
millions for the public envie*. The eseelkid 1111•
misistration of his Noble Friend greatly centrthnted
to raise the triumph of the counter. The Hon! Hen-
demon had end ed to wound his Noble Friend
is a quarter which all who knew hi:n wonlel say was im-
pregnable. No personal loterest had ever interfered
with his Noble Friend's dam When he left the Chair
of that horse, which lie filled twelve or thirties years.
nothing coold induce him to look at his private inter-
. est. His Majesty was recommend...l to grant him a.pei-
, vision comes e AAAA te to his services, but his Noble ?need
peremptorily insisted that no provision whatever should
be made fur bins while be was engaged in the hazardous
affairs of the country. The King had issued his oem-
minds fur a Message to be Isronght do•rn to that beer
tureward the services of his Noble Friend as Speaker of
the house; bat his Noble Friend had desired that it
might nut be done. The Hun. NI enther (Mr. Creesey)
for purposes best known to himself, 1.1,1 referred to a
paper on the table which recalled the *Miming domestic
circumstances in the family of his Noble Friend, alu
though in his (the Marquess's) opinion there was sot
the slightest necessity for such a recurrence with any
view to the lion. Member's ar.:timent. His Noble Friend
had tilled the offices of Speaker, Prime Minister, sod
S.Tretary of State, the latter in a period of ten of the
most critical sears in the history of the country. And
this was the individual who was to be grudged the re-
ward of his !slug services; and in respect of whom a
charge was to be brought against the urowi for doing
that which it bail been empowered to .1. by Parliameet.
—(Hear, hear, hear')—He really felt that be was alms-
lag the patience of the house in enlarging upon inch a
subject ; but lie could nut with tui;isfaction to his fielitu.s
se a 6entlentan, refrain from itais noticing the speech
of the Hon. Member for Slir,wsbore ; a speech he be-
lieved to he the most disgusting and disgrace's! ever ut-
tered within time walls of an Eng nail Parliautet.—(Clean
from the Treasury benches.)
Mr.BKOCtiIIAM said he ruse to protest *pi tvt the :one
of the Noble Marquess.—(lfc.ir, hear, from the Oyposi-
i tion.)—To protest against his or any Minister ut the
Crown daring to use the language he had just uttered.
I —[Lund cheers from the Opposition, accompanied by
cries of •` chair," from seversl i,arts of the house. Here
some confusion took ulare. hot at I •ngtti]
Mariptesa of l-ONIWNDERRI rose to order.
When,-lie said, an Hun. Meruhar *l.ottglit proper lo ap-
ply the word ••• dare" to his (th • M iriitess
lie was bound to 'appose that li•in. Member most
nosso that he hail gone neyood the limits of parliament•
arc debate. On this supposition he so:tun:tied that it
%%as the deny of the lion. and learned lieottentas to
take exception to his languagc the moment it was ut-
tered, and to wove that his w nrda alionld be taken ihrani.
tie b,ggetl to apply for the detision of the Chair on t!,e
point.
The SPF.AKF.R said, if t!:e word .• dare" had been
•tionl in the senss a: tributed to it hr the Nolde Slefilum%
it undoubtedly was liiglely ule Lad, lout-
ever. frequently beard the expr-ssion ,IbC4 in parldaarea•
try debate, stud not .:!jaded !it. lis 11.111're41 the /lOW
:114 he bad absays con-idered its iligt:ity to he heat car •
stilted hy forbearing to lodic, every expre-oian which
otig tut escape in the 61.44 of .'etate not strictly within
Sir TAP. 'this had ititio-ruse. !.i• e c••ilinct. when i.e
r. frail red Frain partiettlatif warm expres-
sions which passed between the !!on. .!!rusher for Curie
eistle 11..inkes) and the lion. Menthes (Jr Shrews•
(A r. Bennet)
BItort:HAM resnmcd. Ile wits quite satisfid
1;i t every Ludy who heard and was not like its
Marort..,trarrirol swat 11 the heat of the
,mist have tinders:mid him ice the w-ry
timer it sppeaod
'lr.. as itiPle"ti.U'll•vthe Chair. Ile had heard the
.ression in quests of itplie.f. he do:tight, howled, a
' imps. lie had often applied it himself and it had mou
• uefore been Laken up. 11: tepeAtril Lis protest ag:i!•%l

-T
ado

rets
Mt
Nod
is d

MN
"I
wain
lie b

he e
:ter
dery
that
aPP
timi

the
who

mem
rM
Ile 4

IMOS
60 1
IM
T
title
ii.«

is
Ur
lad
I

gl